Document JZR5LqNMRLXDLBNnJZbMqdM2

1 SUPREME COURT OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK EIGHTH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 2 COUNTY OF ERIE 3 4 In Re: EIGHTH JUDICIAL DISTRICT ASBESTOS LITIGATION 5 MICHAEL JOSEPH KOLASINSKI 6 Plaintiff 7 -v- Index No. 2008-405 8 ACME LIQUIDATING CORPORATION, successor in interest to 9 LIPE AUTOMATION CORPORATION f/k/a LIPE-ROLLWAY TECHNOLOGY, INC., et al. 10 Defendants 11 12 13 Videotaped Deposition Under 14 Oral Examination of ROGER HOBBIE 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING SERVICES, INC. 24 (718) 761-0527 25 1 1 Transcript of the videotaped deposition of 2 ROGER HOBBIE, called for Oral Examination in the 3 above-captioned matter, said deposition being 4 taken pursuant to the Federal Rules of Civil 5 Procedure by and before Victoria Rohl, Court 6 Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State 7 of New York; taken at the Hilton El Conquistador 8 Golf and Tennis Resort, 10000 North Oracle Road, 9 Tucson, Arizona 85737, on September 8, 2008, 10 commencing at 10:19 a.m. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2 1 EXHIBIT INDEX 2 3 HOBBIE EXHIBITS PAGE 4 1, a CV 19 5 2, a document pulled off the 24 Internet via Google regarding 6 MacKay's Web site 7 3, a document 28 8 4, a summary of the 1980 price increases from vendors that were 35 9 used to make up the various components that went into the brake 10 assembly 11 5, a document to inform the 41 customers of the various 12 specifications of shoe and lining assemblies that were available to 13 them 14 6, a document entitled 1985 Trailer 51 Axle Markets 15 7, a document dated October 1st, 63 16 1985 17 8, a document dated February 1st, 69 1985, an Eaton internal 18 correspondence 19 9, a document dated May 1st, 1985 74 20 10, a document entitled Eaton Brake 81 Shipping Schedule 9/1/78 to 1/26/78 21 11, a document dated November 21st, 86 22 1986 23 12, a copy of the witness's deposition from last July 91 24 13, a document dated February 18th, 96 25 1987 3 1 HOBBIE EXHIBITS (CONT.) 2 14, a document entitled Asbestos Versus Non-Asbestos Distributor 3 Aftermarket Sales Prepared for Robert VanWormer 4 99 15, a letter dated October 20th, 103 5 1987 6 16, an internal correspondence from 103 Eaton dated December 3rd, 1987 7 17, an interoffice correspondence 111 8 from Eaton Corp. Dated December 2nd, 1985 9 18, a document entitled Internal 119 10 Correspondence from Eaton, February 28th, 1986 11 19, a marketing department monthly 122 12 report for November 1986, axle brake division 13 20, an internal correspondence from 124 14 Eaton dated January 6th, 1987 15 21, a letter to Mr. Barry Sengewalt, 130 the Eaton account manager for 16 Oshkosh Truck, from Michael Brooks, chief engineer, vehicle components 17 at Oshkosh Truck 18 22, a data sheet, Molded Materials 134 Company, division of Carlisle 19 Corporation, preliminary engineering, product data sheet, 20 Carlisle K-79, asbestos-free brake block 21 23, an informative request from Ford 142 22 to Eaton talking about willingness to work in a joint program 23 24, an interoffice correspondence 24 dated December 14th, 1982 145 25 4 1 HOBBIE EXHIBITS (CONT.) 2 25, an internal Eaton program to 150 qualify non-asbestos linings 3 26, a document concerning the lining 155 4 grind elimination program 5 27, a document concerning a field 163 visit report, Certified Grocers, 6 Trailmobile grinding brake linings to fit drums on the trailer axles 7 28, a document entitled Employee 168 8 Training Program For Asbestos, Eaton Corporation, Gallatin, Tennessee 9 29, a document concerning going to 179 10 the Department of Labor, dealing with the Occupational Safety and 11 Health Administration, Docket Number H033, Occupational Exposure to 12 Asbestos, Comments of the American Trucking Association, Incorporated 13 30, a document concerning part of 190 14 the American Trucking Association tag group 15 31, a document received July 20th, 200 16 1979, brake division, product engineering, Friction Materials Work 17 Practices Guide 18 32, a letter from Bruce L. Webb 207 19 33, an interoffice correspondence, 207 July 1980, subject matter, asbestos 20 brake lining 21 34, a document concerning a training 226 program regarding asbestos 22 35, a portion of the answers to 238 23 interrogatories propounded by defendant Abex in this case for 24 Eighth Judicial District Asbestos Litigation 25 5 1 HOBBIE EXHIBITS (CONT.) 2 36, a portion of a deposition of Ronald Creamer 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 241 6 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: 2 KEITH VONA, ESQ. 3 LIPSITZ & PONTERIO, LLC 135 Delaware Avenue, Suite 210 4 Buffalo, New York 14202 Appearing for the Plaintiff 5 DANIEL PETTICORD, ESQ. 6 BRZYTWA, QUICK & MCCRYSTAL, LLC 900 Skylight Office Tower 7 1660 West Second Street Cleveland, Ohio 44113-1411 8 Appearing for the Defendant Eaton 9 THOMAS BURCH, ESQ. 10 DEHAY & ELLISTON, LLP 12 Greenway Plaza, Suite 1100 11 Houston, Texas 77046 Appearing for the Defendant 12 PneumoAbex 13 SHANKS LEONHARDT, ESQ. SANDERS & PARKS 14 Suite 1300, 3030 North Third Street Phoenix, Arizona 85012 15 Appearing for the Defendant Bendix 16 CHRISTOPHER BRIDGE, ESQ. 17 GIBSON, MCASKILL & CROSBY, LLP 69 Delaware Avenue, Suite 900 18 Buffalo, New York 14202 Appearing telephonically for the Defendants 19 Ford Motor and General Motors 20 STEPHEN A. DAVOLI, ESQ. SUGARMAN LAW FIRM 21 360 South Warren Street, 5th Floor Syracuse, New York 13202 22 Appearing telephonically for the Defendant Southside Trailer 23 24 25 7 1 JEFFREY J. LEIBECK, ESQ. DAMON & MOREY, LLP 2 1000 Cathedral Place 298 Main Street 3 Buffalo, New York 14202 Appearing telephonically for the Defendant 4 National Automotive Parts Association and Great Dane Limited Partnership 5 STEPHEN M. CAPRIOTTI, JR., ESQ. 6 WILSON ELSER MOSKOWITZ EDELMAN & DICKER, LLP Independence Sq. West, The Curtis Center 7 Suite 1130 East Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19106-3308 8 Appearing telephonically for the Defendant Trailmobile Parts & Services, Inc. 9 BONNIE T. O'CONNOR, ESQ. 10 SMITH, MURPHY & SCHOEPPERLE, LLP Ellicott Square Building 11 295 Main Street, Suite 786 Buffalo, New York 14203-2580 12 Appearing telephonically for the Defendant ArvinMeritor, Inc. 13 DAVID M. STILLWELL, ESQ. 14 ANSPACH MEEKS ELLENBERGER, LLP Main Place Tower, Suite 2400 15 Buffalo New York 14202 Appearing telephonically for the Defendant 16 Kelsey-Hayes 17 THOMAS HAGERTY, ESQ. HAGERTY & BRADY 18 69 Delaware Avenue, Suite 1010 Buffalo, New York 14202 19 Appearing telephonically for the Defendant Acme Liquidating Company 20 RICHARD DOYLE, ESQ. 21 LABATT SMITH HILL Appearing telephonically for the Defendant 22 Mack trucks and Volvo trucks 23 24 25 8 1 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND 2 AGREED by and between the attorneys 3 for the respective parties hereto 4 that filing, sealing and 5 certification of the within 6 Examination Before Trial be waived; 7 that all objections, except as to 8 form, are reserved to the time of 9 trial. 10 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND 11 AGREED that the transcript may be 12 signed before a Notary Public with 13 the same force and effect as if 14 signed before a Clerk or Judge of the 15 Court. 16 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND 17 AGREED that the within examination 18 may be utilized for all purposes as 19 provided by the CPLR. 20 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND 21 AGREED that all rights provided to 22 all parties by the CPLR shall not be 23 deemed waived and the appropriate 24 sections of the CPLR shall be 25 controlling with respect thereto. 9 1 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND 2 AGREED by and between the attorneys 3 for the respective parties hereto 4 that a copy of the Examination shall 5 be furnished, without charge, to the 6 attorney representing the witness 7 testifying herein. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10 1 MR. CAPRIOTTI: An objection by one is 2 good for all. That's fine? Just note our 3 appearance. That's fine. 4 MR. PETTICORD: Bonnie, any other 5 stipulations we need to put on the record? 6 MS. O'CONNOR: You know, I really did 7 not hear what you were talking about. Basically 8 we have the usual stipulations which here 9 involve waiving the signing -- reading and 10 signing of the deposition by the witness, 11 waiving the filing, and then the usual asbestos 12 stipulation which provides that an objection by 13 one defendant can be relied on by any other 14 defendant. 15 MR. PETTICORD: Those are the only ones 16 that I need to know about. I appreciate it. 17 (Discussion off the record.) 18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Please stand by. We 19 are on the record at 10:22 a.m. My name is Don 20 G. East, a certified legal video specialist 21 representing Veritext of Florham Park, New 22 Jersey. The date today is September 8th, 2008, 23 and the time is approximately 10:22 a.m. 24 This deposition is being held at the 25 Hilton El Conquistador Golf and Tennis Resort 11 1 located at 10000 North Oracle Road, Tucson, 2 Arizona, 85737. The caption of this case is 3 Michael Joseph Kolasinski versus Acme, et al. in 4 the Supreme Court, State of New York, County of 5 Erie. 6 The name of the witness is Mr. Roger 7 Hobbie, a representative of Eaton Corporation. 8 At this time will the attorneys please identify 9 themselves and the parties they represent? 10 MR. VONA: Keith Vona from the law firm 11 of Lipsitz Ponterio on behalf of Michael Joseph 12 Kolasinski. 13 MR. PETTICORD: Dan Petticord, Brzytwa 14 Quick & McCrystal on behalf of Eaton. 15 MR. LEONHARDT: Shanks Leonhardt from 16 Sanders & Parks on behalf of Bendix. 17 MR. BURCH: Tom Burch, Dehay & 18 Elliston, Pneumo Abex. 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Will those appearing 20 by telephone please identify yourselves? 21 MS. O'CONNOR: Bonnie O'Connor, 22 Smith, Murphy & Schoepperle, appearing for 23 defendant ArvinMeritor, Inc. 24 MR. DAVOLI: Steve Davoli, Sugarman Law 25 Firm, appearing for Southside Trailer. 12 1 MR. CAPRIOTTI: Steve Capriotti from 2 Wilson Elser representing Trailmobile Parts & 3 Services. 4 MR. HAGERTY: Tom Hagerty from Hagerty 5 & Brady representing Acme Liquidating Company. 6 MR. LEIBECK: Jeff Leibeck from Damon & 7 Morey representing National Automotive Parts 8 Association and Great Dane Limited Partnership. 9 MR. STILLWELL: Dave Stillwell, 10 Anspach Meeks & Ellenberger, Kelsey-Hayes. 11 MR. DOYLE: Richard Doyle, Labatt Smith 12 Hill representing Mack trucks and Volvo trucks. 13 MR. BRIDGE: Chris Bridge, Gibson 14 McAskill & Crosby, Ford Motor, General Motors. 15 MR. PETTICORD: Is that it? Going 16 once, going twice. Everybody is here. 17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The court reporter 18 is Vicki Rohl representing Veritext. Will the 19 court reporter please swear in the witness? 20 21 ROGER HOBBIE, 1489 East Tascal Loop, Oro Valley, 22 Arizona 85737, after being duly called and 23 sworn, testified as follows: 24 25 MR. PETTICORD: Before we start, usual 13 1 stipulations apply in New York. Objection by 2 one is an objection by all. 3 MR. VONA: Agreed. 4 MR. PETTICORD: We're going to waive 5 reading and signing, timeliness, and we're going 6 to waive filing. 7 MR. VONA: Yes. 8 MR. PETTICORD: Is that correct? 9 MR. VONA: That is correct. 10 MR. PETTICORD: And as we discussed off 11 the record, when we talk about Eaton here today, 12 we're referring to the current and former 13 business operations known as Eaton Truck 14 Components. 15 MR. VONA: Very good. 16 MR. PETTICORD: And no other entity or 17 part or piece of Eaton. Is that accurate? 18 MR. VONA: That sounds about right. 19 MR. PETTICORD: Let's do it. 20 21 EXAMINATION BY MR. VONA: 22 23 Q. Okay. Good afternoon, Mr. Hobbie. 24 A. Good afternoon -- morning. 25 Q. Yeah, you're right. Morning. I'm 14 1 sorry. Afternoon everybody on the phone. And 2 obviously where are we right now? 3 A. In Oro Valley, Arizona. 4 Q. Okay. Therefore, there's the problem 5 with the time. You've given a deposition 6 before. I'm aware of that. 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. How many depositions have you given? 9 A. All told, about half a dozen. 10 Q. Okay. And how many of those were in 11 the context of asbestos litigation? 12 A. Three. 13 Q. Okay. This being the third or were 14 there three prior? 15 A. This is the third one. 16 Q. Okay. I won't go over too much of the 17 rules for the deposition, but obviously we can't 18 speak over each other because we'll have 19 difficulties there. Also, if you need a break, 20 let me know. If at any time you don't 21 understand one of my questions, please let me 22 know. If you do answer my question, I'll assume 23 that you did understand it. Is that fair? 24 A. That's fair. 25 Q. Okay. And last year you gave a 15 1 deposition. You were earning about $85 an hour; 2 is that correct? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. I'm hoping maybe you've gone up because 5 of inflation or anything, or not? 6 A. No, frozen. 7 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Hobbie, in anticipation 8 of this deposition, who, if anyone, did you 9 speak to? 10 A. Just Dan Petticord. 11 Q. Okay. And I don't want to ask you 12 about the context of that, but how many times 13 had you spoken to him since you were advised 14 that you had to give this deposition? 15 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 16 THE WITNESS: I'd say twice, plus a 17 couple e-mails. 18 BY MR. VONA: 19 Q. Okay. And also in anticipation of this 20 deposition, what, if anything, did you review? 21 A. Several other depositions by other 22 witnesses. 23 Q. Okay. Which witnesses? 24 A. Let's see. Regan, the guy from Ford. 25 I can't remember his name right now. And the 16 1 one from Rockwell. 2 Q. Okay. And when you say Regan, you're 3 referring to Michael Regan? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Did you have an opportunity to review 6 Mr. Kolasinski's testimony? 7 A. No, I didn't. 8 Q. Okay. When did you first hear about 9 this deposition? 10 A. I would say maybe two weeks ago. 11 Q. Do you know anything about 12 Mr. Kolasinski? 13 A. Just what was mentioned in the other 14 depositions. 15 Q. Okay. So you're familiar what disease 16 he's suffering from? 17 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 19 BY MR. VONA: 20 Q. Are you -- do you know where this case 21 is filed? 22 A. In New York State. 23 Q. And for approximately how long have you 24 been assisting Eaton in the defense of asbestos 25 litigation? 17 1 A. Oh, a little over two years. 2 Q. And aside from testimony, did you 3 provide any other services in that defense? 4 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. Go ahead. 5 THE WITNESS: Just reviewing documents. 6 BY MR. VONA: 7 Q. Okay. And do you help answer 8 interrogatories at all? 9 A. Not really. 10 Q. Did you -- just so we're clear, you're 11 appearing on behalf of Eaton today, correct? 12 A. Yes, that's correct. 13 Q. Did you have an opportunity to review 14 any of the documents that were provided to my 15 office by Mr. Petticord? 16 A. Yes. 17 MR. PETTICORD: Hold on. Go ahead. 18 Answer it. 19 THE WITNESS: If they came out of the 20 Eaton files in Cleveland, yes. 21 BY MR. VONA: 22 Q. And that's what I was referring to. 23 A. Okay. 24 Q. Okay. Have you ever testified in 25 court? 18 1 A. No. 2 Q. Did you talk to any current employees 3 of Eaton? 4 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. About this 5 case? 6 MR. VONA: Yeah. 7 THE WITNESS: No. 8 BY MR. VONA: 9 Q. Okay. How about any retirees with 10 respect to this case? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Did you do any additional research to 13 prepare yourself for this deposition besides 14 what we've talked about? 15 A. Nope. 16 Q. Okay. And I'm not going to spend a lot 17 of time on it, but if we could have your -- I'm 18 not sure you have the CV -- the CV marked real 19 quick as Hobbie 1. 20 (Whereupon, Hobbie Exhibit 1, a CV, was 21 then received and marked for identification.) 22 BY MR. VONA: 23 Q. Mr. Hobbie, is that CV up to date as 24 far as you know? 25 A. Yes. 19 1 Q. Okay. And I won't -- like I said, I 2 won't spend a lot of time on this because it's 3 been covered, but I want to ask you and I 4 can't -- I'm looking under industrial 5 professional associations. What is the, the 6 third one on the bottom that's kind of blurred? 7 A. It's Old Club O Trolley. It's a local 8 Tucson organization, a non-profit organization 9 that runs a historical trolley system in Tucson, 10 and I volunteer as a restoration person and 11 helping rebuild antique coaches. 12 Q. Very good. Let me ask you a little bit 13 about the Society of Automotive Engineers. When 14 did you first -- it says 31 years. When did you 15 first become a member of that? 16 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. I don't 17 think that's accurate. 18 MR. VONA: I'm sorry. 38 years. I 19 apologize. 20 THE WITNESS: It was early '70s. I 21 think '71 probably. 22 BY MR. VONA: 23 Q. Okay. And did you become a member of 24 that association pursuant to Eaton's request? 25 A. Yes. It was part of my job to belong 20 1 to it. 2 Q. Okay. And are you still currently a 3 member? 4 A. Yes, retired member, but I'm still an 5 active member. 6 Q. Okay. During your time with that 7 association, did you ever hold any board 8 positions? 9 A. I -- let's see. I held committee 10 positions, but not strictly board positions as 11 far as management boards or anything like that. 12 Q. Did you ever write any articles for 13 them? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. What articles did you write? 16 A. Historical article that was basically 17 on the history of the Eaton axle. 18 Q. Okay. And I saw that one. 19 A. Did you? 20 Q. Are there any others? 21 A. No, that's the only one. 22 Q. All right. Fair enough. Let me ask 23 you a little bit about the American Trucking 24 Association. Okay. When did you first become a 25 member of that association? 21 1 A. Let's see. That would have been about 2 1978, I believe. 3 Q. Okay. And was that pursuant to Eaton, 4 as well? 5 A. Yes, uh-huh. 6 Q. Okay. Now, it says 31 years as a 7 member. This CV was produced in 2007. By my 8 math, that would put it at 1976. Is that 9 accurate? 10 A. It could be, yes. 11 Q. Okay. Did you ever hold any executive 12 or board positions with that association? 13 A. Yes. For a while, I was on the board 14 of the ATA Foundation. 15 Q. What is that? 16 A. It was a foundation that did basically 17 research for the trucking industry. 18 Q. Okay. What kind of research? 19 A. Basically on truck operations, fleet 20 operations, those types of things. 21 Transportation laws. 22 Q. Anything ever with regard to asbestos? 23 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 24 THE WITNESS: No, no. 25 BY MR. VONA: 22 1 Q. All right. Did you ever write any 2 articles for that association? 3 A. I think I wrote one article that was 4 published in one of their publications. I don't 5 recall what -- exactly what year it was, but -6 Q. What did it concern anyway? 7 A. I think it concerned -- it was either 8 concerning the use of synthetic lubricants in 9 vehicles or -- I believe that's what it was. 10 Q. Okay. Now, let's take a look here. I 11 want to talk to you about your current 12 employment, and I'm correct that you're retired 13 from Eaton? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And you do some consulting? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. We have three companies listed here 18 under current consulting companies. Do you 19 still consult for all three of those companies? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Any additional ones? 22 A. No. 23 Q. All right. I want to ask you a little 24 bit about MacKay. 25 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 23 1 MR. VONA: Okay. Actually, I'm going 2 to have something marked real quick. 3 (Whereupon, Hobbie Exhibit 2, a 4 document pulled off the Internet via Google 5 regarding MacKay's Web site, was then received 6 and marked for identification.) 7 BY MR. VONA: 8 Q. We'll mark this as Exhibit 2 there, and 9 if you take a quick look at this, and I'll 10 represent to you that this is something I pulled 11 off the Internet via Google regarding MacKay's 12 Web site, and I just have a few question 13 questions about it. 14 MR. PETTICORD: Hold on. Before we 15 start here, I'm going to object to any 16 questioning at all about MacKay & Company. I'm 17 going to object to this exhibit. I don't know 18 what it is. He's not here on behalf of McKay. 19 MacKay has nothing to with this case. McKay has 20 nothing to do with why he's being produced. Ask 21 your questions, but every time you ask a 22 question, me jump up and down, do you agree that 23 I object to everything you say about MacKay? 24 MR. VONA: Dan, I'll give you a 25 standing objection to this entire exhibit. 24 1 MR. PETTICORD: Well, not the exhibit, 2 the questioning about it. 3 MR. VONA: And the questioning. 4 MR. PETTICORD: Fair enough. 5 BY MR. VONA: 6 Q. As I mentioned before, this is 7 something I pulled off the Internet, and it has 8 a listing of clients of MacKay. Would you agree 9 with me on that? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And I just want to run through the 12 names really quickly, and it's going to be the 13 same question for every company. And that 14 question is have you ever done any consulting 15 work for that company? 16 A. Right. 17 Q. Okay. ArvinMeritor? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Bendix? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Borg-Warner? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Honeywell International? 24 A. No. 25 Q. For Bendix Heavy Vehicle? 25 1 A. No. 2 Q. Kelsey-Hayes Company? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Maremont Corporation? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Obviously Eaton Corporation. We'll 7 skip that one. Ford Motor Company? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Fruehauf Corporation? 10 A. No. 11 Q. General Motors Corporation? 12 A. I'd say no. 13 Q. Okay. Motion Control Industries? 14 A. No. 15 Q. National Automobile Dealers 16 Association? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Newturn Corporation? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Okay. Fair enough. Okay. Looking 21 back at Hobbie 1, I'm just going to read a 22 summary of your work history with Eaton. You 23 just tell me if I'm missing anything if it's 24 correct based on your prior deposition. It will 25 speed things along. 1959 to 1970, engineer test 26 1 technician. 2 A. Uh-huh. 3 Q. Okay. You have to say yes. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. And you did test brakes in that 6 capacity? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Okay. 1970 to 1974, sales and 9 engineering manager? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. 1974 to 1977, manager of engineering 12 test facilities? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. 1977 to 1980, manager technical 15 services and warranty for axle division? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Okay. 1980 to 1983, manager of service 18 and parts for Eaton Truck Marketing? 19 A. East Truck Components. 20 Q. Thank you. And then 1983 to '91, 21 general service manager, Eaton Truck Components 22 marketing? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. Mr. Hobbie, do you believe you 25 are in the best position -- the best person to 27 1 discuss Eaton's business practices between 1980 2 and 1990? 3 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. Go ahead. 4 THE WITNESS: I'd say yes. 5 MR. VONA: Okay. 6 MR. PETTICORD: I'm sorry. You said 7 '80 to '90? 8 MR. VONA: Can I have this marked as 3? 9 (Whereupon, Hobbie Exhibit 3, a 10 document, was then received and marked for 11 identification.) 12 BY MR. VONA: 13 Q. Sir, I'm handing you what's been marked 14 as Hobbie 3. Take a minute to take a look at it 15 before I ask any questions. Let me know when 16 you're ready. 17 MR. PETTICORD: Off for a second. 18 MR. VONA: Do you want to go off the 19 record? 20 MR. PETTICORD: Do you want to go off 21 for a second, or do you want to let him go 22 through this on the record? 23 MR. VONA: That's fine. 24 BY MR. VONA: 25 Q. Well, let me just ask you this: Have 28 1 you seen that document before? 2 A. No, not per se. 3 Q. Okay. 4 MR. PETTICORD: Can I see the document 5 for a second, please? 6 BY MR. VONA: 7 Q. And counsel has referred you to the 8 last page which is where I was going to go. 9 A. Okay. Yes, I must have. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. I know some of the information. I 12 guess the cover letter -13 Q. You might want to hold on a second. 14 Your counsel stepped outside the room for a 15 minute. We'll just break for a sec. Okay, sir, 16 if you could refer back to that last page. 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. Yes, I did sign it, and I do recognize 20 it. 21 Q. That is your signature? 22 A. Yes, it is. 23 Q. Okay. Could you read the verification 24 to yourself - 25 A. The verification. It says -- 29 1 Q. -- that you signed? 2 A. Comes now, Roger Hobbie states that he 3 authorized to make said answers to 4 interrogatories and requests to produce, and 5 that said answers are true and correct to the 6 best of his knowledge, information and belief, 7 signed Roger Hobbie. 8 Q. And you agree with that statement, sir? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Now that you do recognize the document, 11 I'd ask you, have you had an opportunity to 12 review the document in its entirety? 13 A. Yes, I believe I did read the whole 14 thing. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. The cover letter threw me. 17 Q. I apologize for that. 18 A. I didn't see the cover letter before. 19 MR. PETTICORD: That's his. 20 BY MR. VONA: 21 Q. Anyway, sir, did Eaton ever sell 22 asbestos-containing brakes? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. During what time frame did Eaton 25 sell asbestos-containing brakes? 30 1 A. To the best of my recollection, 2 probably from, I would say, the late 1940s until 3 approximately mid 1980s. 4 Q. Okay. You can't nail that down any 5 more specific with a date other than mid '80s? 6 A. No, not specifically. 7 Q. Okay. Well, then let me -- so then 8 it's fair to say that between 1980 and at least 9 the mid 1980s that Eaton did sell 10 asbestos-containing brakes? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. For what types of vehicles did they 13 sell them? 14 A. Primarily heavy-duty trucks and a few 15 trailer manufacturers and some medium, 16 medium-duty manufacturers. 17 Q. Okay. And based on your prior 18 testimony, I'm assuming -- strike that. 19 Based on your prior testimony, you 20 stated that these were primarily OEM sales to 21 manufacturers for assembly? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. That would go into brand-new equipment? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Did Eaton sell replacement 31 1 asbestos-containing brakes between 1980 and 2 1990? 3 A. Yes. 4 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 5 BY MR. VONA: 6 Q. Okay. Can you tell me what, what sizes 7 of asbestos brakes Eaton sold during that time 8 period? 9 A. Yes. Primarily sixteen and a half inch 10 diameter, seven-inch wide brakes. That was the 11 primary product. 12 MR. PETTICORD: When you say time 13 period, are you talking to '80 to '86, or '80 to 14 the mid '80s, or '80 to '90? 15 MR. VONA: We can just use the 1980 to 16 1990 time frame with the understanding that his 17 testimony is the mid '80s. 18 MR. PETTICORD: Fair enough. Thank 19 you. 20 THE WITNESS: And there was also a 21 steer axle brake that was introduced which was 22 at that time, I believe, a fifteen -- I think it 23 was a fifteen by four-inch brake that was 24 introduced to the market. 25 BY MR. VONA: 32 1 Q. And educate me a little bit. I'm new 2 to this tractor trailer. Is that the front 3 wheel on the tractor? 4 A. Yeah, steering axle. 5 Q. Okay. That's what I thought. What - 6 under what name did Eaton sell 7 asbestos-containing brakes between 1980 and 8 1990? 9 A. Under the name Eaton Self-Contained 10 Brake. 11 Q. Okay. Do you know how much asbestos 12 was in the brakes that was sold during that time 13 period? 14 A. No, I don't. 15 Q. And by the way, most of myquestions, 16 and in fact, all of myquestions will pretty 17 much deal with 1980 for 1990 unless I otherwise 18 specify. 19 MR. PETTICORD: Fair enough. 20 BY MR. VONA: 21 Q. Do you know, do you know what type of 22 asbestos was used during that time period? 23 A. No, I don't. 24 Q. Okay. Did Eaton ever manufacture the 25 brakes it sold? 33 1 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 2 THE WITNESS: They manufactured the 3 brakes but not the linings. 4 BY MR. VONA: 5 Q. Okay. Explain that just briefly for 6 me. 7 A. Well, the -- Eaton manufactured - 8 designed and manufactured all the hard parts; 9 the steel brake shoes, the steel cam shafts, the 10 bracketry, and purchased all the brake lining 11 from various lining manufacturers. 12 Q. That leads me to my next question, and 13 this is going to be pretty easy, I think, but 14 where did Eaton obtain their brake linings, and 15 I'm going to vary this question between, we'll 16 say, 1940s, when they first started using it, 17 and 1990? 18 A. I'd say primarily from, from Abex and 19 Carlisle, and then probably some Raybestos 20 thrown in there earlier on. 21 Q. Okay. When you say earlier on, what do 22 you mean? 23 A. I would say back -- to my knowledge, 24 going back to the beginning in the late '40s, 25 probably Raybestos was more of a major supplier 34 1 in that era, I would think. 2 Q. Okay. Now, dealing with the time 3 period of say 1980 to 1990, do you know who 4 supplied the asbestos-containing brake linings 5 to Eaton? 6 A. Primarily Carlisle and Abex. 7 Q. Okay. Do you know how much for either 8 one? 9 A. Not specifically, but if -- I would 10 guess that probably Carlisle was probably -- it 11 sort of varied back and forth, but Carlisle was 12 probably the majority of the, the share. And it 13 varied by customers as to what, what lining they 14 specified and what lining met certain test 15 criteria and specifications. 16 Q. Okay. 17 MR. VONA: I'm just going to have 18 something else marked real quick. I think we're 19 on 4. 20 (Whereupon, Hobbie Exhibit 4, a summary 21 of the 1980 price increases from vendors that 22 were used to make up the various components that 23 went into the brake assembly, was then received 24 and marked for identification.) 25 BY MR. VONA: 35 1 Q. And I'm going to hand you what's been 2 marked as Hobbie 4, and just if you could take a 3 brief second, just take a look at that. And 4 I'll have some questions for you. All set? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. I'll ask you, have you ever seen that 7 particular document before? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Okay. Have you seen documents like 10 that before during your career? 11 A. Similar. 12 Q. Okay. Would you be able to explain 13 what that is at all for us? 14 A. It's a summary of the 1980 price 15 increases from vendors that we used to make up 16 the various components that went into the brake 17 assembly. 18 Q. Fair enough. That's what I took it to 19 be. I'm more interested with the first thing 20 listed under commodity which is brake 21 components. Do you see that? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And under source, could you just please 24 tell us the sources that are listed? 25 A. Abex, Carlisle, Raybestos-Manhattan. 36 1 Q. And then there's something next to that 2 that says percentage of C. Do you know what 3 that means? 4 A. Percentage of C. 5 MR. PETTICORD: If you know. 6 BY MR. VONA: 7 Q. If you know. 8 A. No. 9 Q. All right. 10 A. Oh -11 Q. Yeah, go ahead. 12 MR. PETTICORD: He's asking for your 13 best recollection. 14 THE WITNESS: To the best of my 15 knowledge, it would be content. Percent of 16 content. 17 BY MR. VONA: 18 Q. Okay. Thank you. During the 19 deposition, if something comes back to you like 20 that, you can stop me and, you know, it's fine. 21 A. Right. 22 Q. And could you read the percentages for 23 us? 24 A. Here it says 63 percent Abex; Carlisle, 25 31 percent; Raybestos-Manhattan, 6 percent. 37 1 Q. And would you agree with me then that 2 at least in 1980, Abex was the largest supplier? 3 A. Yes. 4 MR. PETTICORD: Of what? 5 THE WITNESS: Of brake linings. 6 MR. BURCH: Objection. Form. 7 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. Go ahead. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, I'd agree. 9 BY MR. VONA: 10 Q. Okay. And at least in 1980, would you 11 agree with me that Abex and Carlisle made up for 12 94 percent of brake components that were sold? 13 A. Yes. 14 MR. BURCH: Objection. Form. 15 BY MR. VONA: 16 Q. And also there's a column that says 17 contract date next to it. Do you know what 18 that, what that corresponds to? 19 MR. PETTICORD: Again, to the best of 20 your knowledge. 21 BY MR. VONA: 22 Q. If you know. 23 A. To the best of my knowledge, it would 24 probably be when a supply contract was signed. 25 Q. Was that a common practice, that Eaton 38 1 engaged in having contracts with, say, their 2 brake suppliers, brake lining suppliers? 3 A. I believe it was, yes. 4 Q. Do you know when that started? 5 A. No, I don't. 6 Q. Okay. Do you know when it ceased? 7 A. No, I don't. 8 Q. Okay. Fair enough. All right. Now, 9 the brake linings that we were discussing were 10 supplied to Eaton, what did Eaton do with them 11 at that point? 12 A. Basically riveted them onto a steel 13 brake shoe. 14 Q. Okay. And where was that done? 15 A. Oh, various places. Started out in 16 Cleveland. 17 MR. PETTICORD: During this time frame. 18 THE WITNESS: Oh, during this time 19 frame. 20 BY MR. VONA: 21 Q. Well, let me strike that. 22 You're right, it was a bad question, 23 Dan. 24 Let me just ask you, we'll say from the 25 time -- we'll just use 19 -- when did you start? 39 1 1951? 2 A. '59. 3 Q. We'll use the time frame from 1959 4 until 1990. 5 A. Okay. Started in Cleveland, Ohio. 6 Q. Well, let me just -- you know, I'll 7 make this easier for you. Was it done at 8 Eaton's facilities - 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. -- during that time period? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. See, we're getting there. Okay. 13 And those lined shoes, would they then be 14 incorporated into Eaton's axles during that time 15 frame? 16 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes and no. 18 BY MR. VONA: 19 Q. Explain. 20 A. Some were bolted onto Eaton axles, and 21 others were sold separately to the original 22 equipment manufacturer who bolted them onto 23 Eaton axles or other axles. 24 Q. So is it a replacement part? 25 A. No, not necessarily, even for the 40 1 original equipment manufacturer 2 Q. I see. 3 A. Basically they -4 Q. So they may actually assemble it then 5 at the site? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Did they -- did Eaton during the period 8 1959 to 1990 sell asbestos-containing brake 9 linings attached to shoes as replacement parts? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. All right. Do you know -- did Eaton 12 during that same time period, 1959 to 1990, ever 13 sell just linings? 14 A. No. 15 Q. No, you don't know - 16 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 17 THE WITNESS: No, they did not. 18 MR. VONA: They did not. Okay. I'm 19 going to have something else marked real quick 20 Six? 21 (Whereupon, Hobbie Exhibit 5, a 22 document to inform the customers of the various 23 specifications of shoe and lining assemblies 24 that were available to them, was then received 25 and marked for identification.) 41 1 BY MR. VONA: 2 Q. Sir, I'm going to hand you what's been 3 marked as Hobbie 5 for today's deposition and 4 ask you have you ever seen this document before? 5 A. Looks familiar, yes. 6 Q. And in fact, it was an exhibit at your 7 deposition last year, correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. And sir, what I'd like to do is 10 I'd like to point you to the second page, and 11 looking at the second page, can you tell us when 12 this document was created? 13 MR. PETTICORD: Bottom right. 14 THE WITNESS: 1984. 15 BY MR. VONA: 16 Q. Okay. And was this document something 17 that was created by Eaton? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. And what was this document 20 created for? 21 A. Basically to inform the customers of 22 the various specifications of shoe and lining 23 assemblies that were available to them. 24 Q. And these would be for replacement 25 parts? 42 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Okay. Now, if you could take a look up 3 near the top, and basically, it says this -- the 4 chart below shows brake components match 5 specific friction materials and shoe assemblies. 6 Do you see that? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. What I'm more interested with is below 9 that where it says locate this number in the 10 chart, shoe-only column, and read across the 11 select friction material and match components or 12 kits. Do you see that? It's just below there. 13 A. Yeah, I guess I think I know what you 14 mean. 15 Q. Right up here. That sentence. 16 A. Oh, that. 17 Q. There you go. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. How would a, how would a 20 customer use this chart to, to determine what 21 they wanted to order? 22 A. Because certain applications were 23 initially approved in engineering and with the 24 truck manufacturer, this was an effort to be 25 sure to match the original equipment shoe and 43 1 lining assemblies in the -- with the correct 2 replacement part. 3 Q. Okay. Now, these, these numbers that 4 we see in here, and I'm referring to the numbers 5 in the middle. 6 MR. PETTICORD: Okay. Can you get a 7 little more specific? 8 MR. VONA: Yeah, you're right. That's 9 bad. Strike that, Dan. 10 BY MR. VONA: 11 Q. Actually, why don't I refer you to - 12 and I know it's a little dark, but pretty much 13 in the middle, there's columns that say shoe 14 only and shoe lining. Do you see that? 15 A. Uh-huh, yes. 16 Q. Those numbers that are underneath 17 there, do you know what those numbers correspond 18 to? 19 A. Shoe only would be probably the bare 20 shoe. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. And the one next to it, shoe lining, 23 would be lining. 24 Q. Okay. Would that be a lining by 25 itself, or would that be 44 1 A. It would be the part number -- the 2 Eaton part number of the lining by itself, yes. 3 Q. So those are Eaton part numbers? 4 A. Look like it, yes. 5 Q. Okay. To the best of your knowledge? 6 A. To the best of my knowledge. 7 Q. Now, if you go, if you go back to the 8 left as you're looking at the document, there's 9 a column that says lining block. Do you see 10 that? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. And those numbers underneath 13 that are -- to the best of your knowledge, are 14 those Eaton part numbers, as well? 15 A. They look like it, yes. 16 Q. Okay. So my question is to you then is 17 as a customer, would I not be able to order 18 lining block from Eaton under that part number? 19 A. No. 20 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 21 BY MR. VONA: 22 Q. Why not? 23 A. Because we didn't sell it separately. 24 That's only showing them what the Eaton part 25 number is of the lining block that would be on 45 1 the shoe. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. And I think -- it's a little confusing. 4 The other column that we were talking about 5 earlier, the shoe lining numbers -6 Q. Yeah. 7 A. -- I'm not sure what that is now 8 looking at the other number. 9 MR. PETTICORD: If you know. 10 BY MR. VONA: 11 Q. And that's really where my, my question 12 ends up is that we have a column for shoe lining 13 and a column for shoe only. So my assumption 14 was that the shoe lining was a shoe with the 15 lining attached. 16 A. Yeah, I think that is correct. That's 17 what it looks like. 18 Q. Okay. All right. 19 MR. PETTICORD: Can -- off the record. 20 MR. VONA: Do you want to go off the 21 record? 22 MR. PETTICORD: I want to go off the 23 record. 24 MR. VONA: Is it all right if we go off 25 the record on the phone? 46 1 MR. PETTICORD: Two seconds. 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Counsel? One 3 moment, please. 4 (Discussion off the video record.) 5 MR. PETTICORD: I know you don't like 6 speaking objections, so we're going off the 7 record. If you look at the column you're 8 looking at, which is the one, two, three, four, 9 five, six -- seventh column over, under both the 10 sixteen by five and the sixteen and a half by 11 seven, it actually says shoe, and then there's a 12 slash lining. 13 MR. VONA: Yeah. 14 THE WITNESS: Yeah, there is. 15 MR. PETTICORD: What I'm doing -- and I 16 know you're not doing this intentionally, but 17 the way you read it makes the question appear to 18 be shoe lining. It doesn't imply that there's a 19 hash mark in between them. I want to make sure 20 the record is clear that what you're asking him 21 about is the - 22 MR. VONA: The document speaks for 23 itself, I think. 24 MR. PETTICORD: But the question you 25 asked wasn't shoe slash lining. It was shoe 47 1 lining. And before we start getting into what 2 the lining block number is and the shoe lining 3 block -- I don't want to get into an argument 4 with you, but I know what you're trying to do. 5 I want to make sure the record is clear about 6 it, and I want to make sure the witness knows - 7 or the record said shoe - 8 MR. VONA: That's fine. I'm just 9 asking questions. 10 MR. PETTICORD: I know you are. I'm 11 just giving you a speaking objection off the 12 record. 13 MR. VONA: Fair enough. Ready to go 14 back on. 15 (Whereupon, the proceedings resumed on 16 the video record.) 17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Please stand by. We 18 are back on the record at 10:59 a.m. Please 19 proceed. 20 BY MR. VONA: 21 Q. Okay. Thank you. And I just have one 22 more question about this document. If you - 23 the column all the way on the left with all the 24 letters in it and numbers, what does that 25 indicate? 48 1 A. That is the specification for the 2 various lining material that was approved. 3 Q. Okay. And do those letters indicate 4 anything? 5 A. Various things; coefficient of 6 friction, lining -- evidently lining specs as 7 far as materials is concerned. 8 Q. I'll just ask you real quick about the 9 last two on the bottom. MM8C5. Do you see 10 that? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. Yeah. 14 MR. PETTICORD: Bottom of the page, all 15 the way down at the bottom. 16 MR. VONA: Yeah. 17 BY MR. VONA: 18 Q. You see MM8C5 at the bottom left? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Do you, do you recognize that code 21 number at all? 22 A. MM8C5. I don't know. I really don't 23 remember. 24 MR. PETTICORD: That's fine. 25 THE WITNESS: I'll comment there are 49 1 some non-asbestos linings also listed. 2 BY MR. VONA: 3 Q. That's fine, but that wasn't my 4 question. So -- well, actually, let's -- since 5 you brought that up, how many of those are -- of 6 those listed are -- it's by asterisks, correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. How many of those listed are 9 non-asbestos? 10 A. Three. 11 Q. Okay. And is it safe to assume then 12 that the other ones are not -- are 13 asbestos-containing? 14 A. Yes. 15 DEFENSE COUNSEL: Objection to form. 16 BY MR. VONA: 17 Q. Okay. Does MM8C5 -- I know I asked 18 this, but does it have meaning to you at all? 19 Can you tell anything from it? 20 A. It rings a bell as to a spec that was 21 probably, I'm guessing, fairly common at the 22 time. It was a -- as you see, a high 23 coefficient lining. 24 Q. Okay. Now, a minute ago you mentioned 25 that Eaton sold asbestos-containing brakes to 50 1 trailer manufacturers. 2 MR. PETTICORD: Are we done with this 3 exhibit? 4 MR. VONA: Yes, you can put that down, 5 sir. I apologize. 6 BY MR. VONA: 7 Q. What manufacturers did Eaton sell 8 asbestos-containing brakes to -- I'm speaking 9 about trailers -- between 1980 and 1990? 10 A. To the best of my recollection, I would 11 say probably Trailmobile, Monon, Pines, and 12 possibly a few to Fruehauf, not many. 13 Q. Not many? 14 A. Yeah, probably for specialty orders. 15 Q. Okay. Do you know who Eaton's biggest 16 trailer customer would have been during that 17 time frame? 18 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 19 THE WITNESS: No. 20 MR. VONA: All right. I'm going to 21 keep the court reporter busy today. 22 (Whereupon, Hobbie Exhibit 6, a 23 document entitled 1985 Trailer Axle Markets, was 24 then received and marked for identification.) 25 BY MR. VONA: 51 1 Q. I'm going to hand you what's been 2 marked as Hobbie 6, and have you seen that 3 document before? 4 A. Probably, yes. 5 Q. Okay. Do you know when you saw it? 6 A. Probably the last time it would have 7 been a couple years ago. 8 Q. Okay. You didn't review that document 9 in anticipation for this deposition, did you? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Okay. All right. If you could, I'd 12 like to direct your attention the -- well, let's 13 see. Count the pages to the fifth page. 14 MR. PETTICORD: Give us the page 15 number. 16 MR. VONA: Do you want the Bates 17 number? Will that work? 18 MR. PETTICORD: Just the last two 19 digits. 20 MR. VONA: 677. 21 MR. PETTICORD: Got it. 22 MR. VONA: That will work better. 23 BY MR. VONA: 24 Q. Let me know when you're there. 25 A. Okay. 52 1 Q. Okay. And first off, is there, is 2 there any way to indicate the date this was 3 created? 4 A. It's listed as February 7th, 1985. 5 Q. What's the title of this page? 6 A. 1985 Trailer Axle Markets. 7 Q. Okay. And now, this is a document that 8 was supplied by Eaton to my office? Do you 9 agree with that? 10 A. Yes, probably. 11 Q. Okay. And does it list the OEMs for 12 the 1985 trailer axle market for Eaton? 13 A. Yes. I'd say it lists the potential 14 market. 15 Q. Okay. What do you base that, that 16 answer on? 17 A. Well, it doesn't sound like any 18 production sales that we ever had. It looks to 19 me like it's just talking about the total market 20 and who makes up that market. 21 Q. Okay. Well, would you -- if you could, 22 if you could take a look at the next column next 23 to OEM. It says units. Do you see that? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Do you have any idea what that stands 53 1 for; what that means? 2 A. Trailers, numbers of trailer. 3 Q. Numbers of trailers from - 4 A. Built, built by those manufacturers. 5 Q. I see. Okay. 6 A. And the next would be total number of 7 axles, because some trailers only had one axle, 8 some trailers have two axles, and some have 9 three axles. 10 Q. I see. So this is going to be a little 11 bit of a learning experience for me, as well. I 12 thought this document was something else. 13 That's going to happen from time to time. 14 With that being said, I don't have any 15 questions about that page right now. If you 16 could go to Bates number 675, which is back - 17 it's the third page. Okay. And would you be 18 willing to agree with me that this is also from 19 1985? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. All right. And what's the title of 22 this page? 23 A. OEM trailer axle status. 24 Q. Okay. And above that it says Eaton? 25 A. Yes, Eaton. 54 1 Q. Okay. And under OEM is Pines listed? 2 A. Yes, it is. 3 Q. Okay. And then there's another column. 4 It says Eaton position. Do you know what that 5 means? 6 A. Yeah. That means probably in the 7 trailer manufacturer's sales data book, what 8 different axle models -- make and model was 9 standard equipment, but that also doesn't say 10 who was optional. 11 Q. I see, but would it be fair to -- would 12 you agree with me that it would be fair to say 13 that at least in 1985, the Eaton position was 14 that it was a standard axle on Pines? 15 A. Yes, yes. 16 Q. And also under OEM, there's 17 Trailmobile. Do you see that? 18 A. Yes. 19 MR. CAPRIOTTI: Objection. 20 BY MR. VONA: 21 Q. And let me ask you, is Trailmobile 22 listed under OEM? 23 MR. CAPRIOTTI: Objection. 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. 25 BY MR. VONA: 55 1 Q. Okay. And what was Eaton's position 2 with regard to Trailmobile? 3 MR. PETTICORD: In '85? 4 MR. VONA: In 1985. 5 MR. CAPRIOTTI: Objection. 6 THE WITNESS: In '85, it's standard. 7 BY MR. VONA: 8 Q. Thank you. You can put that one down. 9 We're moving along. 10 MR. PETTICORD: We're done with that 11 document? 12 BY MR. VONA: 13 Q. Okay. Now we'll jump around a little 14 bit, but sir, if you could take a look at the 15 answers to interrogatories which were marked 16 under there, and I'll direct you -- I think it's 17 3, Hobbie 3. Hobbie 3. I'm sorry. I'll do 18 that more than once. And page 65. Let me know 19 when you're there. 20 A. I got it. 21 Q. Okay. 22 MR. PETTICORD: Hold on a second. Read 23 it, and then I want to see it because we don't 24 have another copy. I want to see it before -25 MR. VONA: Do you want him to read it 56 1 out loud? 2 MR. PETTICORD: No. I want to see it 3 when he's done with it. I'm just looking for an 4 electronic copy, but I don't know that I have 5 it. 6 MR. VONA: If we go on break, I have it 7 in my thumb drive. We can put it on there if 8 you want. 9 MR. PETTICORD: Are we going to be on 10 it for awhile? 11 MR. VONA: I'm going to use it a few 12 times. 13 MR. PETTICORD: Then let's take a break 14 and let's do that. 15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Counsel by phone? 16 MR. VONA: Does anybody have any 17 objections if we go off the record here 18 momentarily? 19 MR. CAPRIOTTI: No objection. That's 20 fine. 21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We'll be off the 22 record at 11:08 a.m. Please stand by. 23 (Discussion off the record.) 24 (Whereupon, a recess was then taken at 25 11:08 a.m.) 57 1 (Whereupon, proceedings resumed at 2 11:13 a.m.) 3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Plead stand by. We 4 are back on the record at 11:13 a.m. Please 5 proceed. 6 BY MR. VONA: 7 Q. Okay. We took a short break, and we're 8 back on, Mr. Hobbie, and I apologize, but I got 9 to go backwards a little bit before we go into 10 that. 11 If you can go back to the last exhibit, 12 the 1985 trailer axle document that we were 13 talking about, and I've got to clean this up a 14 little bit. Back on 675, okay? All right. And 15 we were discussing that in 1985, the Eaton 16 position with Pines is listed as standard? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. What does that mean? 19 A. That means that in the -- in their 20 sales data book that for a given model trailer, 21 the Eaton axle would have been the standard. In 22 other words, if you said I want a, a Pines model 23 XYZ and didn't say anything else, it would come 24 with a -- an Eaton trailer axle. 25 Q. And Eaton would supply that axle, 58 1 correct? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. Okay. And do you know if Eaton 4 supplied axles to Pines outside of 1985? 5 MR. CAPRIOTTI: Objection. 6 BY MR. VONA: 7 Q. You can answer. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. Do you know when they first 10 started? 11 MR. PETTICORD: When Eaton first 12 started supplying to Pines? 13 MR. VONA: Yeah, yeah. 14 THE WITNESS: No, I don't. 15 BY MR. VONA: 16 Q. Okay. Do you know if they were 17 supplying axles to Pines in 1980? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. They were? Okay. How about 1980 20 through 1990 time frame? 21 A. I can't answer that because I don't 22 know when Pines went out of business. I don't 23 remember. 24 Q. Fair enough. Would it be fair to say 25 that Eaton sold axles to Pines up until the 59 1 point they went out of business? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And during that time frame, 1980 until 4 whenever they went out of business, did Eaton 5 ever sell asbestos-containing brake assemblies 6 in their axles to Pines? 7 A. I'd say yes. 8 MR. CAPRIOTTI: Objection. 9 BY MR. VONA: 10 Q. Let me move to Trailmobile. What was 11 Eaton's position once again in 1985? 12 A. Standard. 13 Q. Okay. And would that be the same as 14 what we were talking about with Pines? Did they 15 sell -- did Eaton sell axles to Pines or to 16 Trailmobile? 17 MR. CAPRIOTTI: Objection. 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 19 BY MR. VONA: 20 Q. Outside of 1985, let's talk about 1980 21 to 1990 time frame, did Eaton sell axles to 22 Trailmobile? 23 MR. CAPRIOTTI: Objection. 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. 25 BY MR. VONA: 60 1 Q. Okay. And did any of those axles 2 contain asbestos-containing brake components? 3 A. Yes. 4 MR. CAPRIOTTI: Objection. 5 BY MR. VONA: 6 Q. Do you know during -- what -- well, 7 strike that. 8 Would you agree with me that between 9 1980 and 1990, that axles sold by Eaton to 10 Trailmobile did contain asbestos-containing 11 brake linings? 12 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 13 MR. CAPRIOTTI: Objection. 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. 15 BY MR. VONA: 16 Q. Okay. Fair enough. All right. Now we 17 can go to the next document. 18 A. Okay. 19 Q. And we were looking at the 20 interrogatories, I believe, page 65. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And you had an opportunity to take a 23 quick look at that? Have you read the question? 24 MR. PETTICORD: Interrogatory number 25 twenty-eight is the question? 61 1 MR. VONA: Yes, that's correct. 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. 3 BY MR. VONA: 4 Q. Okay. If you could go to the next 5 page, have you had an opportunity to read the 6 answer? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Okay. 9 MS. O'CONNOR: Keith? 10 MR. VONA: Yes. 11 MR. PETTICORD: Guys, just so -- we're 12 getting some static back through the line here, 13 and I know there's some objections, but if 14 you're not actively objecting, if you could put 15 it on mute, it might help us here. We're 16 getting some funny noises through the phone. 17 BY MR. VONA: 18 Q. Okay. And do you agree with the 19 statement that's made in that answer? 20 A. Yes, I do. 21 Q. Okay. That Eaton would not have sold 22 re-lined kits to either Southside Trailer or 23 Roadway Express? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And that Eaton's brake assemblies were 62 1 limited to the -- I'll say OEM with heavy-duty 2 equipment in the heavy-duty industry? 3 A. Yes. 4 MR. VONA: Okay. Let me just mark 5 something else. 6 (Whereupon, Hobbie Exhibit 7, a 7 document dated October 1st, 1985, was then 8 received and marked for identification.) 9 BY MR. VONA: 10 Q. Showing you what's been marked as 11 Hobbie -- Hobbie Exhibit 7. I'll get it right 12 by the end of the day. I promise. 13 MR. VONA: Is there an objection? 14 MR. PETTICORD: I want to read it first 15 before you start questioning. It's a large 16 document, and I don't recognize it off the top 17 of my head, so - 18 MR. VONA: I think Mr. Hobbie will. 19 THE WITNESS: Yes, I've seen it. 20 MR. VONA: It was an exhibit last year. 21 MR. PETTICORD: I'm sure it was, but I 22 still would like to read it. 23 MR. VONA: Let me know when you're 24 ready. 25 MR. PETTICORD: I will. Go ahead. 63 1 BY MR. VONA: 2 Q. All set, sir? With regard to Hobbie 7, 3 this was an exhibit last year at your 4 deposition, correct? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. And your name actually appears on the 7 cover page, correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. When's this document from? 10 A. October 1st, 1985. 11 Q. Okay. And -- okay. If you'd be so 12 kind, on the second page, 303 is the stamped 13 number there, going down to the last paragraph 14 where it says "We continue to get reports that 15 would indicate a decline in 1986 class 8 truck 16 sales. The following are a few examples." 17 What companies are listed under there? 18 A. Gelco which is a, a fleet -- leasing 19 fleet that was located, I think, out of 20 St. Louis, Missouri; Yellow Freight out of 21 Kansas City; Roadway Express out of Akron, Ohio; 22 Lend Lease out of Minneapolis; and Ruan out of, 23 out of -- I think it was, it was Iowa, state of 24 Iowa. 25 Q. With regard to Roadway, was Roadway a 64 1 customer of Eaton's? 2 A. Not a direct customer, but yes, we 3 basically -- this is a national account report. 4 They were a national account -- national fleet 5 account that basically we called on to try to 6 pull through specifications of our products 7 through the various OEMs, both tractor and 8 trailer manufacturers. 9 Q. Okay. Did Eaton, between 1980 and 10 1990, ever sell anything to Roadway? 11 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 12 THE WITNESS: Directly, no. 13 BY MR. VONA: 14 Q. Not directly? Indirectly? 15 MR. PETTICORD: Same objection. 16 THE WITNESS: No, not indirectly other 17 than through an OEM. 18 BY MR. VONA: 19 Q. Do you know what OEMs Eaton sold 20 through to get to Roadway? 21 MR. PETTICORD: Same objection. 22 THE WITNESS: White, White, Volvo, 23 Ford, Mack. That's probably about it. 24 BY MR. VONA: 25 Q. Do you know where or how Eaton would 65 1 have obtained this information regarding 2 Roadway? 3 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 4 THE WITNESS: By contacting Roadway 5 management and basically feedback from them as 6 to -- and basically they provided that type of 7 information to help suppliers know how to plan 8 their businesses as far what production 9 capacities might be in the various given years. 10 BY MR. VONA: 11 Q. Okay. With that being said, would you 12 agree with me then in 1985 that, that Eaton was 13 in a position to contact Roadway? 14 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 15 BY MR. VONA: 16 Q. Regarding anything? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Okay. Do you know how long that type 19 of arrangement or relationship existed between 20 Eaton and Roadway? 21 MR. PETTICORD: Time out. 22 MR. VONA: That's a fair question. 23 MR. PETTICORD: Can you be a little bit 24 more specific? What type of relationship? That 25 they can talk to each other? 66 1 MR. VONA: Yes. 2 MR. PETTICORD: How long Eaton could 3 contact Roadway? 4 BY MR. VONA: 5 Q. That's it. I mean, when was the 6 first -- let me, let me back up. Strike the 7 last question. 8 When was the first time to your 9 knowledge that Eaton had direct contact with 10 Roadway? 11 A. 1959. 12 Q. Okay. So is it fair to say -- well, 13 let me -- before I even get into that, did Eaton 14 continue to have contact with Roadway up through 15 1990? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Okay. Is it fair to say then from 1959 18 to 1990, Eaton could call up Roadway and talk to 19 them about just about anything they wanted to? 20 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. 22 BY MR. VONA: 23 Q. All right. I think -- all right. I'm 24 done with that exhibit. So just to go forward 25 on that a little bit, though, between 1980 and 67 1 1990, if Eaton wanted to warn Roadway of the 2 hazards or potential hazardous of asbestos - 3 MR. PETTICORD: Same objection. 4 MR. VONA: Could I finish my question, 5 please? 6 MR. PETTICORD: You sure can. 7 BY MR. VONA: 8 Q. Okay. Between 1980 and 1990, if Eaton 9 wanted to contact Roadway to advise them of the 10 potential health hazards of asbestos, would they 11 be able to? 12 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 13 THE WITNESS: I'd say yes. 14 BY MR. VONA: 15 Q. Thank you. I think we got into this a 16 little bit before, but can you just tell me who 17 Eaton's OEM customers were between 1980 and 18 1990? 19 A. Kenworth, Peterbilt, Western Star, 20 Freightliner, Mack, Volvo, and whatever part of 21 White was still in existence then, Ford, General 22 Motors, International. 23 Q. That's fine. 24 A. International to the best of my 25 knowledge. 68 1 Q. That's fine. You did a great job. Do 2 you know between that same time frame who 3 Eaton's biggest customer would have been? 4 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 5 THE WITNESS: I'd say PACCAR which 6 includes both Kenworth and Peterbilt. 7 BY MR. VONA: 8 Q. Okay. During the 1980 to 1990 time 9 frame, did Eaton, did Eaton sell 10 asbestos-containing brakes to the entities you 11 just described, or listed, I should say? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Okay. Where would Ford fall in as far 14 as size of customer between the 1980 and 1990 15 time frame? 16 MR. PETTICORD: To the best of your 17 knowledge. 18 BY MR. VONA: 19 Q. Yeah, if you know. 20 A. To the best of my knowledge, I would 21 say somewhere in the middle. 22 Q. Okay. 23 MR. VONA: I'm going to have something 24 else marked here. 25 (Whereupon, Hobbie Exhibit 8, a 69 1 document dated February 1st, 1985, an Eaton 2 internal correspondence, was then received and 3 marked for identification.) 4 BY MR. VONA: 5 Q. Sir, I'm going to hand you what's been 6 marked as Hobbie number 8 and just take a minute 7 to, to review that document, and I only have 8 some limited questions about it, but feel free 9 to read as much as you want. 10 A. Sure. 11 MR. PETTICORD: If you want to direct 12 him to one part. 13 BY MR. VONA: 14 Q. Yeah. Why don't we do that. It will 15 probably be a little easier, and if at any point 16 you need to read something, just let me know. 17 MR. PETTICORD: Go back and say for 18 context - 19 BY MR. VONA: 20 Q. Let's just look at the cover page 21 really quick, and I want to ask you if you've 22 ever seen any document like this before. 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Have you ever seen this document? 25 A. Probably. 70 1 Q. Okay. And when's it dated? 2 A. February 1st, 1985. 3 Q. And this is an Eaton internal 4 correspondence? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Okay. What's it with regard to? 7 A. Looks like it's regard to month end 8 report as far as status of the brake business. 9 Q. All right. And if I could direct your 10 attention to -- it's going to be Bates 42389. 11 It's a number of pages back. The title of the 12 page is Brake Forecast. Let me know when you're 13 there. 14 A. I got it. 15 Q. Okay. You got it. And all the way on 16 the left, there's a column that says customer 17 and application, correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What's the first customer listed? 20 A. Ford. 21 Q. Okay. And then going across, are there 22 a number of months listed? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. And would you agree with me 25 that's a six-month time period? 71 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. If you could, could you read the four 3 totals for each month? 4 A. It looks like roughly seven thousand - 5 between low seven thousands and high seven 6 thousands. 7 Q. Okay. Now, if you could, could you 8 take a moment to look at the remaining customers 9 and their total sales for that same time period? 10 A. Yes. 11 MR. PETTICORD: Just on that page? 12 Just on that page? 13 MR. VONA: Yeah. Actually, the second 14 page, as well. The -- strike that. 15 The page following, 423090, also lists 16 some, I believe. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 BY MR. VONA: 19 Q. Okay. All right. Let me know when 20 you're set. 21 A. Got it. 22 Q. Okay. Would you, would you agree with 23 me, sir, that at least during this six-month 24 time frame in 1985, Ford was the largest -25 A. Yes, sir. 72 1 Q. -- customer? 2 A. Yes, it was. 3 Q. Okay. Do you know -- is this an 4 isolated thing in 1985, or does this refresh 5 your recollection as to the size of Ford as a 6 customer? 7 A. Well, yes. Ford was one of the larger 8 customers, but then along in that time frame, 9 they got out of the heavy-duty truck business. 10 Q. Okay. Approximately when was that? Do 11 you know? 12 A. Specifically, I can't recall. 13 Q. I'm assuming it would have been after 14 1985. 15 A. After this, yes. 16 Q. Okay. All right. And did Eaton - 17 during the time frame 1980 to whenever Ford got 18 out of heavy trucks, did Eaton sell 19 asbestos-containing brake linings or brake 20 assemblies to Ford? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. All right. Let me - 23 MR. PETTICORD: Are you done with this? 24 MR. VONA: I think so, yeah. 25 BY MR. VONA: 73 1 Q. Would you agree with me then between 2 1980 and whenever they stopped with the heavy 3 trucks that Ford was one of Eaton's biggest 4 customers for axles? 5 A. Yes. 6 MR. BRIDGE: Objection. 7 MR. VONA: 9. 8 (Whereupon, Hobbie Exhibit 9, a 9 document dated May 1st, 1985, was then received 10 and marked for identification.) 11 BY MR. VONA: 12 Q. Handing you what's been marked as 13 Hobbie 9, and I'm getting it right now. And I 14 believe you recognize this document, do you not? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. It was an exhibit last year at your 17 deposition. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Just briefly, the date on this? 20 A. May 1st, 1985. 21 Q. And it's an Eaton internal 22 correspondence? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And you were copied on this, correct? 25 A. Yes. 74 1 Q. So you have personal knowledge about 2 this document? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Okay. I want you to -- well, first of 5 all, the second sentence on the first page, it 6 says "attached is a matrix listing the standard 7 lining on Eaton brakes at the OEM level." 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Can you explain what that means? 10 A. Basically, the standard linings that 11 each OEM on an Eaton brake would be offering in 12 their sales data book. 13 Q. Okay. Would that necessarily then 14 be -- well, strike that. 15 Would that be the, the brake lining 16 that Eaton would use then for that customer? 17 A. Yes. 18 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 19 BY MR. VONA: 20 Q. Okay. If you could turn to the third 21 page, the last page - 22 MR. PETTICORD: 572? 23 MR. VONA: Yes, sir. 24 MR. PETTICORD: Thank you. 25 BY MR. VONA: 75 1 Q. And what is that, that chart titled? 2 A. Standard lining used at Gallatin by OEM 3 for fifteen and sixteen-and-a-half-inch brakes. 4 Q. Okay. And I believe we discussed 5 earlier, the fifteen-inch for the - 6 A. Steer. 7 Q. Steer axle. The sixteen-and-a-half, 8 what's that for? 9 A. That's for drive axles -- trailer 10 axles. Well, probably in this case, trailer - 11 drive axles, not trailer axles. 12 Q. Okay. And under -- well, we've got a 13 bunch of names there. Actually, let's do, let's 14 do it a different way. Under lining mix 15 industry number, do you see that MM8C5 again? 16 A. Are you sure that's MM8? 17 Q. Yeah. 18 A. Could it be MMB? 19 Q. You know, I don't know for sure, but 20 we're looking at the same thing. 21 A. Yeah. That's sort of what I recall, 22 MMB. 23 Q. C5? 24 A. Well, yeah. You know, I guess to the 25 best of my recollection, sure, I knew it was a 76 1 lining that was available. 2 Q. Okay. And does it indicate whether or 3 not that's asbestos? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. It does. 7 Q. Okay. And does it indicate where you 8 would have obtained that lining from? 9 A. Carlisle -10 Q. Okay. 11 A. -- motion Control. 12 Q. All right. And bear with me. If you 13 slide over on that same line the MM, say, BC5, 14 does it list which OEM used that lining? 15 A. Yes. 16 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 17 BY MR. VONA: 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. Yes, it does. 20 Q. Which one? 21 A. Ford. 22 Q. Okay. And they mark that with a little 23 X; is that correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Are there any other Xs for that lining? 77 1 A. No. 2 Q. And what does that X indicate? 3 A. The X indicates that Ford uses, uses 4 Eaton brakes with that lining in it. 5 Q. Okay. And if you look towards the 6 bottom, there's a little ledger that says what 7 the X means. Do you see that? 8 A. Standard lining, yes. 9 Q. All right. Thank you. And going back 10 to the previous page, that would be 571, okay, 11 I'd like to ask you -- if you go -- it's close 12 to the bottom, and you see it again, MMBC5 or 13 8C5. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. If you go all the way over to the 16 right, under application, what does it list? 17 A. Tractor trailer. 18 Q. Now, does that mean it could be used 19 for the tractor and the trailer? 20 A. And the trailer, yes. 21 Q. Versus above it says trailer only. Do 22 you see that -23 A. Yes. 24 Q. -- in one of the other ones? 25 A. Right. 78 1 Q. Okay. And now, bear with me a second. 2 Mr. Hobbie, would you agree with me, sir, that 3 we've established that the brake lining MMBC5 4 was asbestos-containing at certain times? 5 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. Form. 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. 7 BY MR. VONA: 8 Q. Do you know when it was asbestos 9 containing? 10 A. I don't understand. 11 Q. Do you know during what time frame that 12 that particular lining was asbestos-containing? 13 A. Well, I'd have to say that basically it 14 was asbestos-containing when that spec was 15 introduced until when it was removed. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. Now, I don't know the specific dates. 18 Q. Would you agree with me then at least 19 in May of 1985 it was asbestos-containing? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Would you agree with me that prior to 22 that date it was asbestos-containing? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. And would you also agree with me 25 that this was the standard lining used by Ford 79 1 on Eaton axles in 1985? 2 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 MR. PETTICORD: If you have something 5 else to tell him, tell him. 6 BY MR. VONA: 7 Q. Do you have something to add to that, 8 if it's responsive to my, my question? 9 A. It is responsive to your question in 10 that I guess I would have to question because 11 I'm not sure whether the Eaton brake necessarily 12 was standard on the Eaton axle at that time. 13 Q. Okay. And what other brakes would 14 Eaton use for their axles? 15 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 16 THE WITNESS: Eaton would not use any 17 other brakes, but Ford would on Eaton axles. 18 BY MR. VONA: 19 Q. I see. So what you're saying then is 20 that if -- let me just strike that. 21 Let me, let me ask you this way: If 22 Eaton sold an axle with a brake assembly 23 attached to it, would it have contained that 24 lining? 25 A. Yes. 80 1 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 2 BY MR. VONA: 3 Q. During that time frame? 4 A. For that specification, yes. 5 Q. Okay. I think I'm all set with that 6 one, sir. And do you have any idea or any 7 personal knowledge as to what the duration of 8 that particular lining, this MM8C5, when, when 9 that was used by Ford? 10 A. Not specifically. 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. It was a, a high friction - 13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We've had a tape 14 failure. Can we hold on that question, please? 15 MR. VONA: Sure. 16 MR. PETTICORD: We're going off the 17 record for a second. This one wasn't our fault. 18 Blame somebody else. 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are off the 20 record at 11:37 a.m. 21 (Whereupon, a recess was then taken at 22 11:37 a.m.) 23 (Whereupon, proceedings resumed at 24 11:45 a.m.) 25 (Whereupon, Hobbie Exhibit 10, a 81 1 document entitled Eaton Brake Shipping Schedule 2 9/1/78 to 1/26/78, was then received and marked 3 for identification.) 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the 5 beginning of tape number two in the deposition 6 of Mr. Roger Hobbie. We are back on the record 7 at 11:45 a.m. Please proceed. 8 MR. VONA: Thank you. Getting little 9 bumps in the road here. Before we went on the 10 break, I asked you a question, and just so the 11 record is clear, I'm going to have the reporter 12 read it back and then I'll allow you to answer 13 because I'm not sure we got the full answer. 14 (Whereupon, the above-requested answer 15 was then read by the reporter.) 16 THE WITNESS: High friction lining that 17 Ford specified. 18 BY MR. VONA: 19 Q. Okay. So this is something that Ford 20 would have, would have specified? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Okay. From Eaton? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. Let me, let me show you Hobbie 25 10 which I should have showed you earlier but I 82 1 missed it, and do you recognize this document at 2 all? 3 A. Not specifically. 4 Q. Okay. Would you agree with me that it 5 was, it was supplied by Eaton to my office? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. All right. What's the title of this 8 page? 9 A. Eaton Brake Shipping Schedule 9/1/78 to 10 1/26/78. 11 MR. PETTICORD: Could you read that 12 again for me, please? 13 THE WITNESS: Eaton Brake Shipping 14 Schedule 15 MR. PETTICORD: You're missing a word 16 THE WITNESS: Oh, Ford, excuse me, Ford 17 brake. 18 BY MR. VONA: 19 Q. Thank you for the clarification, Dan. 20 Sir, in -- you just said it. This is 21 from the September '78 to January '79, correct? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. And do you know what this document is 24 telling us? What are we looking at? 25 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. If you can 83 1 explain the document, go ahead and explain the 2 document. 3 MR. VONA: Sure, yeah. That's all I'm 4 looking for. 5 THE WITNESS: It just looks like the 6 various part number brake assemblies that were 7 shipped to Ford over that period of time. 8 BY MR. VONA: 9 Q. And with regard to the brake linings 10 that were shipped during that time, can you tell 11 me which ones were shipped or which one -- aside 12 from one? Go ahead. 13 A. It's the MM dash, and I guess it is 14 8C5. That's the, that's the regular production 15 option. 16 Q. As we saw in the chart earlier, 17 correct? 18 A. Right. 19 MR. PETTICORD: Was there a further 20 part to that answer that you wanted to - 21 THE WITNESS: Yeah. The RPO stands 22 for -- that's the regular production options, 23 which means that that's basically what the 24 standard was for Ford. The lower section is the 25 DSO which is the specified options, if you will. 84 1 The customer basically came in and said I want 2 this lining, blah, blah, blah. 3 BY MR. VONA: 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. So therefore, if it was approved, they 6 could -- as you see, there's a different one at 7 the bottom. 8 Q. On the bottom. I see. So if it's, if 9 it's RPO, the manufacturer -- I'm sorry, the 10 customer doesn't say anything. They get 11 whatever they had listed as standard in 12 Eaton's 13 A. In Ford's data book. 14 Q. Ford's data book. But Eaton would know 15 what they wanted, correct, in that circumstance? 16 A. Yes, yeah. 17 Q. Similar to what we looked at in that 18 chart? 19 A. Right. 20 Q. So would you agree with me then that at 21 least in September 1978, that the standard 22 lining for Ford was MM8C5? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. Was that asbestos-containing? 25 Do you know? 85 1 A. I believe it was, yes. 2 Q. Okay. I'm done with that one. Thank 3 you. 4 MR. PETTICORD: Excuse me. Sorry. 5 MR. VONA: Sir, I want to show you 6 another document. Let me have it marked real 7 quick. 8 (Whereupon, Hobbie Exhibit 11, a 9 document dated November 21st, 1986, was then 10 received and marked for identification.) 11 BY MR. VONA: 12 Q. I'm handing you what's been marked as 13 Hobbie Number 11. Are you familiar with this 14 document? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Okay. What's the date on this 17 document? 18 A. November 21st, 1986. 19 Q. Okay. And is this internal 20 correspondence? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Okay. 23 MR. PETTICORD: No. 24 THE WITNESS: No, it isn't. It's an 25 outside 86 1 BY MR. VONA: 2 Q. Oh, okay. You're right. All right. 3 What -- where in Eaton did this come from? Who 4 did it come from? 5 A. It came from the axle brake division in 6 Kalamazoo, Michigan. It's from a Mr. Tom 7 Bruggeman. 8 Q. Did you know him? 9 A. Yes, casually. 10 Q. Okay. What was his position? 11 A. He was a purchasing agent and buyer. 12 MR. PETTICORD: In '86? 13 THE WITNESS: Yeah. It's the title. 14 BY MR. VONA: 15 Q. Principal buyer? 16 A. Principal buyer. 17 Q. Would it be his job to obtain 18 asbestos-containing brake linings during the 19 1986 time period? 20 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. Go ahead. 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. 22 BY MR. VONA: 23 Q. Okay. And who's this addressed to? 24 A. Mr. Robert Kickel, vice-president, OE 25 sales, Motion Control Industries, Clarkston, 87 1 Michigan. 2 Q. Okay. Did you know Mr. Kickel at all? 3 A. No, I did not. 4 Q. Okay. And Motion Control Industries, 5 are they also known as Carlisle? 6 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 BY MR. VONA: 9 Q. Okay. At least during this time frame? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Okay. Have you had an opportunity - 12 well, actually, I'll just, I'll just go ahead 13 and -- it says, this letter is written in 14 response to your recent letters of November 6, 15 November 19th, 1986, as well as several 16 telephone conversations with Mr. Tom Sheikh and 17 yourself concerning Carlisle's commitment to 18 satisfy Eaton's asbestos lining block 19 requirements through January 1, 1988. Okay. 20 A. Uh-huh. 21 Q. Who's Mr. Sheikh? 22 A. He was a sales representative for 23 Carlisle. 24 Q. Okay. All right. And the next 25 paragraph down, why don't you just read that to 88 1 yourself real quick. Okay? Does that indicate 2 that at -- for some reason that Eaton changed 3 their projected asbestos volumes for this 4 particular order? 5 MR. PETTICORD: The letter says what it 6 says. Are you asking him - 7 MR. VONA: If he agrees with me. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. 9 MR. PETTICORD: If he agrees with you 10 what; that the letter says that the volumes 11 changed? 12 MR. VONA: Yeah. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes. 14 BY MR. VONA: 15 Q. And then there's a list of some, some 16 volumes there, correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Okay. Now, in particular I want to ask 19 you about -- under description, there's a - 20 four entries for 8C5. Do you see that? 21 A. Uh-huh. 22 Q. Do you know if that's the same as 23 MM8C5? 24 MR. PETTICORD: Point of clarification. 25 Are you asking if 89 1 MR. VONA: If it's the same lining. 2 MR. PETTICORD: -- if the descriptive 3 number 8C5 - 4 MR. VONA: Yes. 5 MR. PETTICORD: -- corresponds to what 6 we've seen in other documents listed as MM8C5? 7 MR. VONA: Better question. 8 MR. PETTICORD: Is that what you're 9 asking? 10 MR. VONA: Thank you, Dan. 11 THE WITNESS: I'd say yes. 12 BY MR. VONA: 13 Q. Okay. Good. Would you agree with me 14 that Eaton was attempting to stockpile 15 asbestos-containing linings at this point? 16 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 17 THE WITNESS: I'd not necessarily. 18 BY MR. VONA: 19 Q. Okay. What do you mean by that? 20 A. It could be that there were orders 21 coming in from the OEMs that projected larger 22 quantities -23 Q. Okay. 24 A. -- in the future. 25 MR. VONA: Can I have that marked? 90 1 (Whereupon, Hobbie Exhibit 12, a copy 2 of the witness's deposition from last July, was 3 then received and marked for identification.) 4 BY MR. VONA: 5 Q. Showing you what's been marked as 6 Hobbie 12. It's a copy of his deposition from 7 last July. 8 MR. PETTICORD: In the Acceturo case? 9 MR. VONA: Yes. 10 MR. PETTICORD: Okay. You're familiar 11 with this? 12 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh, yes. 13 BY MR. VONA: 14 Q. This deposition was given in the 15 context of an asbestos case, correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Okay. And it was given under oath? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. All right. I'd like to direct your 20 attention to page seventy-five. Okay. And 21 actually -- strike that. 22 Page seventy-four first, and let me 23 know when you're there. 24 MR. PETTICORD: Let me see that first 25 before you read it. Do you have a line 91 1 designation? 2 MR. VONA: Yeah. I'd like to point out 3 line thirteen, just that we're talking about 4 this particular exhibit at this time, if that's 5 okay, before I ask him the question. Is that 6 fair? 7 MR. PETTICORD: That that letter, that 8 Exhibit 16 identified on page seventy-four of 9 this deposition is the same as Exhibit 11 here? 10 MR. VONA: Yes, but the line of 11 questioning following that, so I don't have to 12 read it, all pertains to that exhibit. Will you 13 stipulate to that? 14 MR. PETTICORD: That's correct. 15 MR. VONA: Okay. Then line 16 designation - 17 MR. PETTICORD: I got you. I'm 18 following you. 19 MR. VONA: Yeah. We'll just go with 20 line twenty-one. 21 MR. PETTICORD: Through, I'm assuming, 22 line one on page seventy-six. 23 MR. VONA: One on -- yeah. 24 MR. PETTICORD: Go ahead. 25 BY MR. VONA: 92 1 Q. Take a look at that, sir. 2 A. Which one? 3 Q. You're looking at page twenty-one - 4 MR. PETTICORD: Line twenty-one. 5 BY MR. VONA: 6 Q. Yeah. Line twenty-one, page 7 seventy-five. 8 A. Got it. 9 MR. PETTICORD: Up near the top, the 10 first line, the last page. 11 BY MR. VONA: 12 Q. The first line on seventy-six. Let me 13 know when you're set. 14 A. Yeah. 15 Q. Would you agree with me that at least 16 last year during that deposition you indicated 17 that Eaton was stockpiling some material? 18 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. Read it 19 into the record. Read the question and answer 20 into the record. 21 BY MR. VONA: 22 Q. Fine. I'll read the question for you. 23 "What is your understanding of what is being 24 asked of Motion Control in that letter?" 25 And that letter is referring to -- 93 1 MR. PETTICORD: Exhibit 11. 2 BY MR. VONA: 3 Q. -- Hobbie 11. 4 MR. PETTICORD: Two Bs. 5 BY MR. VONA: 6 Q. Two Bs. Hobbie 11. And your answer, 7 "It appears to me they were being asked to meet 8 their original commitment they had made about 9 supplying enough materials to meet the needs; 10 i.e., stockpiling some material and not cause a 11 shortage or to stop production." 12 Did I read that correctly? 13 A. Yes, you did. 14 Q. So you did say last year that they were 15 stockpiling? 16 MR. PETTICORD: Form. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did. And 18 essentially, it's the same thing I just about 19 the other one. 20 BY MR. VONA: 21 Q. What did you say? 22 A. Well, I didn't use the term stockpiling 23 or necessarily agree with that at this time, and 24 basically, it meant here as building a stock or 25 a supply to meet future needs of orders that 94 1 were probably being forecasted. 2 Q. So maybe we're just getting a mix on 3 the jargon, the term - 4 MR. PETTICORD: Just let him finish. 5 Explain your answer. 6 THE WITNESS: This makes it sound like 7 Eaton was deliberately building a stockpile of 8 materials so that they could continue selling it 9 on beyond a normal cut-off period. And 10 basically, if they had orders in house that they 11 were under contract to supply, they wanted 12 enough to be able to meet those needs. 13 BY MR. VONA: 14 Q. Sure. And I don't want to be 15 argumentative, but those were your words. You 16 did say it. 17 A. No, no. I agree with you. It looked 18 different. 19 Q. That's what you said, correct? 20 A. Yeah. 21 Q. All right. We'll move on. 22 MR. PETTICORD: Still on the depo, or 23 are you done with the depo? 24 MR. VONA: We can put that aside for 25 now, and hopefully we won't need it. 95 1 BY MR. VONA: 2 Q. Okay. And I believe I may have asked 3 this, and I apologize, but the 8C5, to the best 4 of your knowledge, indicates the MM8C5? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And that it was asbestos-containing? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. So is it fair to say then at least from 9 1979 to 1986, that the MM8C5 lining was 10 asbestos-containing? 11 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. Go ahead. 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 13 BY MR. VONA: 14 Q. Okay. And also during that time 15 period, was that -- between 1979 and 1986 that 16 was the standard lining used by Ford? 17 A. Yes. 18 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 19 (Whereupon, Hobbie Exhibit 13, a 20 document dated February 18th, 1987, was then 21 received and marked for identification.) 22 BY MR. VONA: 23 Q. Showing you Hobbie 13, and just take a 24 moment to review that. Are you familiar this 25 document? 96 1 A. Yes, I've seen it before. 2 Q. In fact, you're cc'd on it, correct? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And is this an internal correspondence 5 from Eaton? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And when's it dated? 8 A. February 18th, 1987. 9 Q. Okay. And what's the subject matter? 10 A. Current status brake lining recognized 11 by Eaton brake engineering. 12 Q. And the, the document states, "Attached 13 please note the current lining Eaton brake 14 engineering recognizes is serviceable. Asbestos 15 lining, although in some cases is still 16 available, will become obsolete during the third 17 quarter of 1987." 18 And the question I have is, if you flip 19 to the second page, okay, do you see the MM8C5 20 again? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Okay. Would you agree with me then 23 that this brake lining would have been available 24 at least until the third quarter of 1987 as 25 asbestos-containing? 97 1 A. I would say yes. 2 Q. Okay. And there's a, a column titled 3 replacement non-asbestos. Do you see that? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What do they, what do they have listed 6 under there for the MM8C5? 7 A. Testing in process for other materials. 8 Q. In progress for other materials? 9 A. Progress, yeah. 10 Q. Sir, do you know what that means? 11 A. Yes. They were probably trying to 12 qualify a higher friction level, non-asbestos 13 material to meet the customer's specifications. 14 Q. Okay. Would it be, would it be fair to 15 say then that at that time there wasn't a 16 substitute for that brake lining? 17 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 18 THE WITNESS: In, in non-asbestos? 19 BY MR. VONA: 20 Q. Yeah. If you know. 21 A. Specifically I'm going to say no, I 22 don't know because -23 Q. Okay. That's fair. 24 A. The customer may not have thought it 25 was a replacement. 98 1 Q. Okay. All right. I'm all set with 2 that one And do you have any reason to 3 believe -- strike that. 4 All right. Sir, I ask you -- we're 5 going to look at the interrogatories once again, 6 and direct you to page 67, interrogatory number 7 thirty. You all set? 8 A. Uh-huh. 9 Q. Do you agree with that statement? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Okay. So between, we'll say, 1970 and 12 1990, Eaton never sold any asbestos-containing 13 brake linings to independent parts distributors? 14 A. Yes. 15 MR. VONA: Okay. Let's just do this 16 one real quick. 17 (Whereupon, Hobbie Exhibit 14, a 18 document entitled Asbestos Versus Non-Asbestos 19 Distributor Aftermarket Sales Prepared for 20 Robert VanWormer, was then received and marked 21 for identification.) 22 BY MR. VONA: 23 Q. Hobbie 14, just take a moment to look 24 at that, and let me know if you recognize this 25 document at all. 99 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. You do recognize it? 3 A. Uh-huh. 4 Q. Okay. You'd agree with me that this 5 was a document provided by Eaton to my office? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And what's -- when was it received? 8 A. Received April 17th, 1985. 9 Q. Okay. And the title of the document 10 is? 11 A. Asbestos Versus Non-Asbestos 12 Distributor Aftermarket Sales Prepared for 13 Robert VanWormer. 14 Q. Do you know Mr. VanWormer? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What was his position at Eaton? 17 A. He was sales manager of the brake 18 division, I believe, at that time. 19 Q. Okay. So would it be, would it be fair 20 to say that at that time it was his job to know 21 Eaton's customers? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. All right. What does the term 24 distributor mean to you? 25 A. It means that probably in this case an 100 1 aftermarket -- independent aftermarket 2 distributor, and they possibly could have been a 3 channel in the distribution probably through an 4 OEM. In other words, OEMs -- if you sold 5 product to the OEM, the OEM could then - 6 certain OEMs would sell it to independent 7 distributors for distribution in areas. 8 Q. So if I'm understanding you correctly, 9 this document that Eaton provided is discussing 10 distributor sales of material that they would 11 have received from OEMs? 12 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 13 THE WITNESS: In my knowledge, yes, it 14 probably is. 15 BY MR. VONA: 16 Q. Okay. And just for the record, there's 17 a list of distributors on the left-hand side; is 18 that right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Okay. And they're from all over the 21 country, correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. All right. That's all I have for that 24 one. That, that process you just described 25 where Eaton would sell asbestos-containing 101 1 brakes to an OEM and then the OEM would possibly 2 sell to a distributor, did the OEM have to get 3 permission from Eaton to do that? 4 A. Not necessarily. The distributor could 5 have been just their customer and they were an 6 authorized brake parts distributor for, for that 7 OEM independent channel. 8 Q. Let's say between 1980 and 1990, were 9 certain OEMs distributors for Eaton parts? 10 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 11 BY MR. VONA: 12 Q. Do you follow my question? 13 A. Not directly, but yes, an independent 14 could buy various parts from, say, a small OEM 15 like the Crane Carrier Corporation, and then it 16 would be sold to another distributor who would, 17 in turn, have the local customers to sell to. 18 Q. Would that product have the Eaton name 19 on it? 20 A. Sure, yes. 21 Q. During the 1980, 1990 time frame, would 22 any of the larger OEM customers of Eaton do the 23 same thing? 24 A. I believe there were some. 25 Q. Did that include Ford, if you know? 102 1 MR. BRIDGE: Objection. 2 THE WITNESS: I'm going to say I don't 3 know. 4 BY MR. VONA: 5 Q. Fair enough. Okay. And we, we touched 6 on this a little bit earlier, and you weren't 7 able to pin it down for me as to when the last 8 time Eaton incorporated asbestos-containing 9 brake linings into an assembly; is that right? 10 A. Yes. I don't know exact date. It was 11 sometime in, in the late '80s. 12 Q. Okay. Earlier you said mid '80s. I 13 don't mean to split hairs. 14 A. Mid to late, sometime in that time 15 frame. 16 Q. All right. 17 (Whereupon, Hobbie Exhibit 15, a letter 18 dated October 20th, 1987, was then received and 19 marked for identification.) 20 (Whereupon, Hobbie Exhibit 16, an 21 internal correspondence from Eaton dated 22 December 3rd, 1987, was then received and marked 23 for identification.) 24 BY MR. VONA: 25 Q. I'm going to show you Hobbie 15. And 103 1 it's a one-page document. You'd agree with me 2 that was provided by Eaton to my office? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Okay. And where, where -- which 5 department from Eaton wrote this letter? 6 A. The axle brake division, sales 7 department. 8 Q. Okay. And when was this letter 9 written? 10 A. October 20th, 1987. 11 Q. And who's it written to? 12 A. Mr. Dan Lanzdorf, Oshkosh Truck 13 Company, Oshkosh, Wisconsin. 14 Q. And Oshkosh was a customer of Eaton's 15 during this time period? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Do you know the duration of Oshkosh as 18 a customer of Eaton? You can ballpark it. 19 A. I think through this period of time it 20 would have been the military Emmet truck 21 contract, so it would have been sometime in the 22 early '80s to probably 1991, '2, somewhere in 23 that range. 24 Q. That's, that's when Oshkosh was a 25 customer based on military specifications? 104 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Okay. Were they a customer prior to 3 that with Eaton? 4 A. Yes, in smaller numbers. 5 Q. Non-military? 6 A. Yeah, non-military and some military, 7 too. 8 Q. Okay. And if you could, could you just 9 read to yourself the first paragraph? All set? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Would you agree with me that Eaton's 12 agreeing here to supply asbestos-containing 13 brakes for a particular application for Oshkosh 14 until September 1988? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Okay. And that's due to their 17 inventory status? 18 MR. PETTICORD: Well, objection. Go 19 ahead. 20 THE WITNESS: It's my understanding it 21 was due to the military's requirement to 22 maintain the specific lining that they were - 23 that these vehicles were originally built with 24 as a standard -- standardization. 25 BY MR. VONA: 105 1 Q. So for the new vehicles that were being 2 manufactured, you're saying that so they would 3 be in line with the old ones? 4 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. Go ahead. 5 THE WITNESS: I believe that was the 6 intent. 7 BY MR. VONA: 8 Q. Okay. Why don't we move on to 16. 9 MR. PETTICORD: My hand fell asleep. 10 I'm sorry. 11 MR. VONA: That's all right. 12 BY MR. VONA: 13 Q. And I'll just -- again, this is, this 14 is an internal correspondence from Eaton - 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. -- dated December 3rd, 1987? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And there's a particular sentence I'd 19 just like to point out to you in the middle 20 starting with "we have also committed." Do you 21 see that? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Could you read that sentence to 24 yourself? 25 MR. PETTICORD: Read the whole thing if 106 1 you need to. 2 BY MR. VONA: 3 Q. Whatever you need to do, but let me 4 know. 5 A. Okay. 6 Q. Would you agree with me it's a fair 7 statement that at least in certain applications, 8 Eaton was still using asbestos-containing brake 9 linings in 1989? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. All right. And in all fairness, Eaton 12 phased out some of its asbestos brakes earlier 13 than that year, correct? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. Okay. Can you, can you describe when 16 was the first time that Eaton -- strike that. 17 Can you just -- if you could, can you 18 describe for us what the process was that Eaton 19 went through where they decided to phase out 20 asbestos? 21 A. Well, I think the performance of the 22 existing linings basically were coming to the 23 point where non-asbestos linings that were being 24 developed to meet the replacement specifications 25 for the asbestos materials were being -- those 107 1 were being tested to meet SAE standards -- test 2 standards and all that to be able to be 3 qualified to meet the, meet the performance of 4 the lining required for those applications. 5 So I guess, really Eaton started in 6 19 -- I think the first one that was approved 7 was about 1981, as I remember, non-asbestos for 8 a specific customer. 9 Q. Do you know which customer that was? 10 A. I think it was Mack. 11 Q. Okay. I'm sorry. Go ahead. 12 A. And then it just sort of progressed 13 from there as, as different -- as the lining 14 manufacturers developed different linings to 15 meet the dynamometer testing and field testing 16 programs to be able to qualify to be approved, 17 and basically being controlled by DOT stopping 18 distances and things like that, and, and also 19 end-use customers' willingness to accept those 20 linings as a change -- another change in the 21 industry. 22 Large fleets basically like to 23 standardize on components for serviceability, so 24 it takes a while for them to change their 25 systems over and inventories of parts over. 108 1 Q. Okay. Do you know -- you mentioned 2 before when manufacturers -- I think you 3 stated -- and I don't mean to misstate you, but 4 when they made non-asbestos materials available. 5 Do you know with regard to Eaton's suppliers of 6 asbestos-containing linings when the first time 7 that would have been? 8 A. No, not specifically. 9 Q. Okay. Do you have a general idea? Was 10 it in the '70s, '80s, '90s? 11 A. It was probably in the '70s, and there 12 were, of course, various forms of non-asbestos 13 linings available, metallic linings and things 14 like that, that were very expensive and very 15 application sensitive. 16 In other words, you may put a high 17 friction metallic lining on the unit, and it may 18 wear the drums out, but for certain 19 applications, it also may have -- for heavy 20 loads and things like that, it may have given 21 better stopping power. 22 Q. You mentioned cost a minute ago. 23 A. Well, it was very expensive to 24 maintain, and initial cost was usually higher, 25 too. 109 1 Q. With regard to non-asbestos? 2 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 3 THE WITNESS: Any other lining. 4 BY MR. VONA: 5 Q. Any other lining besides asbestos? 6 A. Right. 7 Q. It was more expensive than asbestos; is 8 that right? 9 A. No, no - 10 MR. PETTICORD: Let him finish his 11 answer. 12 MR. VONA: Go ahead. I'm 13 misunderstanding, I think. 14 MR. PETTICORD: Let him answer the 15 question. Go ahead and explain. 16 BY MR. VONA: 17 Q. Go ahead. 18 A. Metallic linings were used for specific 19 severe service applications, and they were more 20 expensive than any other linings that were 21 available at the time, and -- but they also had 22 problems or shortcomings in wear and tear on 23 brake, brake drums and things like that. So it 24 wasn't something that could be adapted to the 25 whole industry at that time. 110 1 Q. Okay. I think I follow you. All 2 right. 3 MR. PETTICORD: Are you okay? Do you 4 need a break? 5 MR. VONA: Are you sure you're all 6 right? 7 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh. 8 (Whereupon, Hobbie Exhibit 17, an 9 interoffice correspondence from Eaton Corp. 10 dated December 2nd, 1985, was then received and 11 marked for identification.) 12 BY MR. VONA: 13 Q. Show you what's been marked as Hobbie 14 Number 17, and ask you to take a look at that, 15 and I have some questions when you're ready. 16 A. Okay. 17 Q. All set? Okay. And once again, this 18 is an interoffice correspondence from Eaton 19 Corp., correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And dated December 2nd, 1985? 22 A. Right. 23 Q. All right. And if I could direct you 24 to the second page. First of all, what do you 25 understand this document to be? 111 1 A. I think it's a -- it's an interoffice 2 correspondence from Mr. Tom Bruggeman to 3 Mr. Fred Kovalik who was the -- I believe at the 4 time he was probably the material controls 5 manager, and I think he was making some 6 suggestions to Mr. Kovalik about, about some 7 obsolete material and ways of getting it out of 8 the system, I guess. 9 Q. Okay. You just said obsolete material. 10 What material was obsolete? 11 A. Looks like brake, brake shoes, brake 12 assemblies, I guess. 13 Q. Okay. Would -- well, brake assemblies, 14 did those contain linings? 15 A. Looks like some of them probably do. 16 Q. Sure. What's the subject matter of 17 this correspondence? 18 A. Proposed program to deplete excess R-31 19 brake shoe inventory resulting from non-asbestos 20 demand in the marketplace. 21 Q. Do you know if the R-31 brake shoe or 22 brake lining -- strike that. 23 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 24 BY MR. VONA: 25 Q. Do you know what R-31 stands for? 112 1 A. It's not one that I'm familiar with. 2 Q. Okay. Give me a minute. Okay. I'd 3 like to redirect your attention, and I don't 4 have it marked, but was Hobbie 8 at your 5 deposition from July? 6 MR. PETTICORD: Last year? 7 MR. VONA: Yeah. 8 BY MR. VONA: 9 Q. And you have the marked copies in front 10 of you. It's May 1985 brake lining availability 11 correspondence. 12 A. Got it. 13 Q. You got it? 14 MR. PETTICORD: Read the exhibit 15 number. 16 MR. VONA: No, that's not it. 17 MR. PETTICORD: This one? 18 THE WITNESS: This one, 8. 19 MR. VONA: No, no, 8 from July. 20 THE WITNESS: Oh, 8 from July. 21 MR. PETTICORD: It looks like this. 22 MR. VONA: Unfortunately, you have all 23 the marked ones, so - 24 MR. PETTICORD: Do you want to stop for 25 a second and we'll dig it out? 113 1 MR. VONA: I think that's it right 2 there. 3 MR. PETTICORD: It says brake lining 4 availability at the top. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 MR. PETTICORD: Could you read for the 7 court reporter what the exhibit number is for 8 this deposition? 9 THE WITNESS: Exhibit Number 9. 10 BY MR. VONA: 11 Q. Thank you. And sir, I'm asking you to 12 take a look again at Hobbie Number 9, and if you 13 could, could you turn to the second page? 14 A. Uh-huh. 15 Q. Okay. And looking under the title or 16 the column, lining mix industry number, you come 17 about two-thirds of the way down, there's an 18 MMR-31. Do you see that? 19 MR. PETTICORD: Just getting ready. 20 MR. VONA: Let me know when you're 21 there. 22 THE WITNESS: Okay. Yeah, the MMR, 23 okay, R-31. 24 BY MR. VONA: 25 Q. Okay. Well, sir, do you have any 114 1 reason to believe that MMR-31 is different from 2 3 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 4 THE WITNESS: No. It, it - 5 BY MR. VONA: 6 Q. You can answer. 7 A. I would say it's probably the same. 8 Q. Similar to when we had the MM8C5 and 9 the 8C5? 10 A. Yes, that's correct. 11 Q. And am I correct that's a lining mix 12 industry number? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And they're referring to brake linings? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And the next column over from there, it 17 says type asbestos, non-asbestos. What does it 18 indicate? 19 A. That it's asbestos. 20 Q. Okay. So you'd agree with me then at 21 least in 1985, that the R-31 brake lining was 22 asbestos-containing? 23 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. Go ahead. 24 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 25 BY MR. VONA: 115 1 Q. All right. Let's, let's go back to the 2 exhibit we were just looking at a moment ago, 3 which I'm going to start writing down on mine so 4 I can keep track. 5 MR. PETTICORD: December 2, 1985. 6 BY MR. VONA: 7 Q. Thanks. And in fact, this is the same 8 year as the last exhibit we looked at, correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. Does that refresh your 11 recollection as to what R-31 stands for? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Okay. And it stands for asbestos brake 14 linings, correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 MR. PETTICORD: Well, objection. 17 BY MR. VONA: 18 Q. Is that correct? 19 A. That's correct. 20 MR. PETTICORD: Listen to his question, 21 and then answer his question. 22 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 23 BY MR. VONA: 24 Q. Sir, would you -- would it be a fair 25 statement that in 1985 that Eaton was trying to 116 1 sell off this asbestos-containing brake lining 2 so they wouldn't get stuck with it? 3 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 4 THE WITNESS: Well, it looks to me like 5 this was a proposal. I don't know if it was 6 ever adopted. 7 BY MR. VONA: 8 Q. Well, at least they were attempting to, 9 correct? 10 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 11 THE WITNESS: Well, somebody -- Tom 12 Bruggeman was suggesting that to his boss, the 13 man who was in charge; other than the 14 suggestions made in the memo. 15 BY MR. VONA: 16 Q. How did he suggest to do that in the 17 memo? Let me, let me point you to the second 18 page which is 165 Bates number. 19 A. Sell it in the aftermarket. 20 Q. Yeah. There's a paragraph there. It 21 starts "I suggest that the following steps be 22 taken in order; that the phase in of 23 non-asbestos lining disposing of R-31 shoe 24 assemblies and the depletion of existing trailer 25 axle inventory transpire in a manner most 117 1 economical to the division." 2 What do you understand that to mean? 3 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 4 THE WITNESS: If you know what 5 Bruggeman was thinking then on December 2nd, 6 1985. 7 BY MR. VONA: 8 Q. Yeah, if you know. 9 A. I don't know specifically, no. 10 Q. And one of the steps that he did 11 recommend was a service parts program for 12 marketing R-31 shoe assemblies in the 13 aftermarket, correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And then going to the final page, 166, 16 the last page. Got it? 17 A. Yeah. 18 Q. The third paragraph from the bottom 19 starts "an aggressive marketing program is 20 absolutely necessary as the demand for 21 asbestos-lined shoe assemblies is rapidly 22 diminishing." 23 MR. PETTICORD: Hey, guys. Whoever is 24 not on the mute button, can you put it on mute? 25 We're getting some cross talk into the video. 118 1 I'm sorry. 2 BY MR. VONA: 3 Q. That's fine. Do you see that statement 4 there? 5 A. Yes, I do. 6 Q. What is -- well, I guess my question 7 would be then -- strike that. 8 They're certainly at least attempting 9 to sell these asbestos brake linings. Would you 10 agree with that? 11 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. The 12 document is what the document is. He's answered 13 that twice now. 14 MR. VONA: It wasn't the same question, 15 but go ahead. 16 THE WITNESS: It's being proposed, yes. 17 I don't know that it's an attempt to do it. 18 It's just being proposed as a potential - 19 MR. VONA: It's a potential -- I see. 20 Okay. We're good. Let's move on to the next 21 one. 22 (Whereupon, Hobbie Exhibit 18, a 23 document entitled Internal Correspondence from 24 Eaton, February 28th, 1986, was then received 25 and marked for identification.) 119 1 BY MR. VONA: 2 Q. Take a look at Hobbie 18, sir. Let me 3 know when you're set, because I literally have 4 one question. 5 A. Okay. 6 Q. Good. On the cover page, Internal 7 Correspondence from Eaton, February 28th, 1986, 8 correct? 9 A. Uh-huh, yes. 10 Q. What's the subject matter here? 11 A. Update on program to deplete excess 12 R-31 brake shoe inventory and implement 13 non-asbestos in the marketplace. 14 Q. Would you agree with me that this is an 15 update on the previous memo topic? 16 A. Looks like it, yes. 17 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 18 BY MR. VONA: 19 Q. All right. And really I just want you 20 to look at the second page, last paragraph on 21 the bottom. It says "the key in this scenario 22 is that as time progresses, the demands for 23 asbestos decreases; therefore, it is necessary 24 that we rid ourselves of asbestos inventory for 25 which Eaton is responsible. 120 1 What does that mean to you? 2 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. In the 3 context of the document? 4 MR. VONA: Yeah. 5 MR. PETTICORD: Or in his personal 6 opinion? 7 MR. VONA: Well, we'll do both 8 actually. 9 BY MR. VONA: 10 Q. What about in your personal opinion? 11 What does that mean to you? 12 A. Well, it says there was inventory left 13 over, and the demand for non-asbestos was 14 increasing, thereby rendering the asbestos 15 obsolete or oversupplied. So they were looking 16 at how to get rid of it. 17 Q. So you'd agree with me that they're 18 trying to get rid of this material so that they 19 don't get stuck with it as it becomes obsolete? 20 A. It looks like they were proposing to do 21 something with it. 22 Q. Okay. Would you have any -- strike 23 that. 24 In the context of the document, do you 25 think it means anything different than what you 121 1 just told me? 2 A. Other than, again, it's a proposal, I 3 guess. He's basically making a statement that 4 there's this situation, and we need to do 5 something about it. 6 Q. Do you know - 7 A. And they may have come back and said 8 scrap it all. I don't know. 9 Q. So you don't know one way or another if 10 they ever did? 11 A. No, I don't. I'm not aware of what 12 they did. 13 MR. VONA: Okay. 14 (Whereupon, Hobbie Exhibit 19, a 15 marketing department monthly report for 16 November 1986, axle brake division, was then 17 received and marked for identification.) 18 BY MR. VONA: 19 Q. Here's what's been marked as Hobbie 20 Number 19, also Exhibit 94 at your deposition 21 last year. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. You recognize this document, correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. You're actually listed on this document 122 1 as receiving it? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Okay. And this is December 5th, 1986? 4 A. Yup -- yes. 5 Q. And what is this document? 6 A. It's a marketing department monthly 7 report for November 1986 -8 Q. All right. 9 A. -- axle division -- axle brake 10 division. 11 Q. If you could go to page 31 -- 721. 12 721. Sorry. And let me know when you're there. 13 A. Got it. 14 Q. Okay. You got it. I'm looking all the 15 way at the bottom under Kenworth Truck Company, 16 engineering, "it says Eaton brakes with 17 non-asbestos linings are being released in 18 December 1986. The change will be implemented 19 on a plant-by-plant basis allowing existing 20 inventories to be exhausted prior to using the 21 new non-asbestos-lined brakes. Complete 22 changeover should occur prior to February 1, 23 1987." 24 Do you see that? 25 A. Yes. 123 1 Q. And I just want to ask you again, what 2 does that mean to you personally? 3 A. It means that the OEM, Kenworth in this 4 particular case, probably allowed the inventory 5 to be billed out, some of which they may have 6 had in their own stock of brake assemblies at 7 their own manufacturing plants, plus whatever 8 Eaton had in the system, in the pipeline. 9 Q. Would you agree with me then at least 10 in '86 with regard to Kenworth that Eaton was - 11 what's the proper word I'm looking for? That 12 Eaton was implementing the non-asbestos brake 13 material with the exhausting of asbestos brake 14 material? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. Using it up? 17 A. Yes. 18 MR. VONA: That's it for that one. 19 That was easy. Page 20. 20 (Whereupon, Hobbie Exhibit 20, an 21 internal correspondence from Eaton dated 22 January 6th, 1987, was then received and marked 23 for identification.) 24 BY MR. VONA: 25 Q. Showing you what's been marked as 124 1 Hobbie 20. Take a look at that, and let me know 2 when you're comfortable. 3 A. Okay. 4 Q. All set. Okay. And once again, this 5 is an internal correspondence from Eaton dated 6 January 6th, 1987, correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. What's the subject matter here? 9 A. Monthly report December 1986. It was a 10 report by Mr. Robert Ille to Mr. Fred Kovalik on 11 the status of the situation with RABA. 12 Q. First of all, who's RABA? 13 A. RABA was a company in the country of 14 Hungary that Eaton had a -- oh, it was like a 15 bartering agreement with them where they 16 manufactured trailer axles and brakes and 17 certain drive axle components in exchange for 18 other, other Eaton products that they basically 19 sold in that country. 20 Q. So this company wasn't owned by Eaton 21 or anything like that? 22 A. No. It was just an agreement that 23 Eaton had with them. 24 Q. How long -- if you know, what time 25 frame did Eaton do business with RABA? 125 1 A. Oh, I'd say it was in the probably mid 2 '70s to maybe late '80s. Somewhere in that time 3 frame. 4 Q. And only if you know, did RABA 5 manufacture or sell asbestos-containing brake 6 linings? 7 MR. PETTICORD: For Eaton? 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. 9 BY MR. VONA: 10 Q. At all. 11 A. Yes, yes. 12 Q. Did they do that for Eaton at all? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And did you have an opportunity to read 15 through that document real quick while we 16 were - 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. I'm concerned with the second 19 paragraph. 20 A. Right. 21 Q. Okay. "RABA has offered to ship all 22 41,400 shoes with asbestos brake lining 23 currently being held at RABA to Eaton for no 24 cost. Eaton will sell the shoes at $5 a piece 25 and realize $207,000 of the more than three and 126 1 a half million it claims from RABA." 2 First question, does RABA owe Eaton 3 money at this point in time? 4 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. Of the 5 letter? At the time of the letter? 6 MR. VONA: Yeah. 7 MR. PETTICORD: Okay. 8 MR. VONA: Yeah. 9 THE WITNESS: I don't really know. It 10 sort of looks like they do, but you didn't read 11 the last sentence. It says "to date, no 12 shipment notification has been received from 13 these shoes." 14 BY MR. VONA: 15 Q. Sure. 16 A. For these shoes. And as far as my 17 recollection of situations like this were 18 concerned, the US Commerce Department basically 19 looked at some of these situations as dumping 20 programs. 21 And so I don't know -- unless we have 22 something that I don't remember -- whether this 23 ever took place or not, because it mentions down 24 below here talking to the Commerce Department. 25 Q. Sure. Would you agree with me, though, 127 1 at least in principle, that Eaton's agreeing to 2 accept asbestos-containing shoes as part of a 3 debt? 4 MR. PETTICORD: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. 5 MR. VONA: It's my question. 6 MR. PETTICORD: No, no, no. You're not 7 going to ask that question on this document. 8 The -- you can read in the document as to what 9 it says, but to -- if you want to ask him 10 whether Eaton made an agreement based on the 11 offer made by RABA in this letter, ask that 12 question. 13 MR. VONA: Well, I appreciate that, and 14 as we talked about before, you're not allowed to 15 make a speaking objection. 16 MR. PETTICORD: And I'm fine with that, 17 but you can't do what you're doing right now. 18 MR. VONA: I can ask my questions 19 however I want to ask them, and you can make 20 your objection. 21 MR. PETTICORD: That's fine. 22 MR. VONA: That's the rules. 23 MR. PETTICORD: I know. Let's go. 24 BY MR. VONA: 25 Q. Once again, it says, and I'll read it, 128 1 "RABA has offered to ship all 41,400 shoes with 2 asbestos brake lining currently being held at 3 RABA to Eaton for no cost." 4 Are they agreeing to ship those for 5 free? Is RABA agreeing to ship those for free? 6 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. Objection. 7 THE WITNESS: According to that 8 statement, yes. 9 BY MR. VONA: 10 Q. And then it says "Eaton will sell the 11 shoes at $5 a piece and realize $207,000 of the 12 money that's owed." 13 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 14 BY MR. VONA: 15 Q. And I appreciate the last statement, 16 but at least in principle, is Eaton 17 acknowledging the fact that they would resell 18 these brake linings? 19 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 20 THE WITNESS: According to - 21 BY MR. VONA: 22 Q. According to the letter. 23 A. According to the letter, Mr. Robert 24 Ille, he's not the sales department, but that's 25 what he was basically proposing, I guess, in 129 1 this letter. 2 MR. VONA: Fair enough. That's all I 3 have on that. Thank you. Are we on 21? 4 (Whereupon, Hobbie Exhibit 21, a letter 5 to Mr. Barry Sengewalt, the Eaton account 6 manager for Oshkosh Truck, from Michael Brooks, 7 chief engineer, vehicle components at Oshkosh 8 Truck, was then received and marked for 9 identification.) 10 BY MR. VONA: 11 Q. Take a look at Hobbie 21. 12 MR. PETTICORD: Bless you. My guess is 13 you're going to direct him to the second to last 14 full paragraph on the first page. 15 MR. VONA: You're catching on. 16 MR. PETTICORD: Do you want him to just 17 review that? 18 MR. VONA: I just want to give him a 19 fair opportunity to look at it. 20 MR. PETTICORD: I understand, I 21 understand. 22 MR. VONA: If you want me to direct 23 him, I can do that. It will speed things up. 24 MR. PETTICORD: For this purpose, I 25 think that's probably fair. 130 1 BY MR. VONA: 2 Q. Why don't we -- you all set, sir? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. All right. I don't mean to rush you. 5 A. That's okay. 6 Q. Why don't we just take a look at - 7 first of all, do you recognize that document at 8 all? 9 A. I may have seen it. 10 Q. Sure. 11 A. When I review documents, I could have. 12 Q. Okay. And what is this document? 13 A. It's a letter to Mr. Barry Sengewalt, 14 which is the Eaton account manager for Oshkosh 15 Truck, from Michael Brooks, chief engineer, 16 vehicle components at Oshkosh Truck. 17 Q. And this is December 2nd, 1987? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. Would you agree with me that the 20 context of this letter is discussing the phasing 21 out of asbestos-containing brake linings for 22 Oshkosh? 23 A. Yes, and also - 24 MR. PETTICORD: For this program. 25 MR. VONA: Yeah. 131 1 THE WITNESS: For this program, and 2 also for the implementation of the coined brake 3 shoe. 4 BY MR. VONA: 5 Q. Okay. And as Dan pointed out, we're 6 going to look at the second to last paragraph 7 that reads "the phase in of the new brakes will 8 be coordinated to use up the existing stockpile 9 of asbestos brakes." 10 Would it be a fair statement that in 11 1987, at least with regard to this specific 12 application for Oshkosh, that Eaton was trying 13 to use up its asbestos-containing brakes prior 14 to implementing non-asbestos? 15 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. This is an 16 Oshkosh document. 17 BY MR. VONA: 18 Q. If you know. 19 A. The way it's stated, yes, that's what 20 it is, but there may have been some other 21 circumstances involving why they were doing 22 that. They may have already been under 23 contract, as the contract was being fulfilled, 24 obligated to do that. 25 Q. Whose contract? 132 1 A. The contract with -- between Oshkosh 2 and the United States Army, the Marine Corps. 3 Q. Okay. That wouldn't be pursuant to any 4 contract between Eaton and Oshkosh? 5 A. No. Other than they were probably 6 ordered by Oshkosh for -- to build out the 7 number of vehicles that were on order at the 8 time. 9 Q. Okay. 10 MR. PETTICORD: Good. 11 MR. VONA: Yeah, good. You know, why 12 don't we, why don't we take a quick break. I'm 13 getting toward the last few things. I'm 14 switching areas. This way -- let's go off the 15 record. 16 MR. PETTICORD: Everybody, we're off, 17 okay? 18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We'll be going off 19 the record at 12:48 p.m. Please strand by. 20 (Whereupon, a recess was then taken at 21 12:48 p.m.) 22 (Whereupon, proceedings resumed at 23 12:59 p.m.) 24 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Stand by. This is 25 the beginning of tape number three in the 133 1 deposition of Mr. Roger Hobbie. We are back on 2 the record at 12:59 p.m. Please proceed. 3 BY MR. VONA: 4 Q. Okay. All right. Sir, Keith Vona 5 still here with you, and I just need a little 6 clarification. Earlier in your testimony you 7 mentioned that non-asbestos brake linings became 8 available in the late '70s. Is that right? 9 A. I think as far as us actually shipping 10 any to a customer, it was probably 1981. 11 MR. VONA: Okay. That's fair enough. 12 That clears it up for the interrogatory answer 13 that I looked at. That being said, let me just 14 have this marked. 15 (Whereupon, Hobbie Exhibit 22, a data 16 sheet, Molded Materials Company, division of 17 Carlisle Corporation, preliminary engineering, 18 product data sheet, Carlisle K-79, asbestos-free 19 brake block, was then received and marked for 20 identification.) 21 BY MR. VONA: 22 Q. Showing you what's been marked as 23 Hobbie Number 22, and I'd like you to take a 24 look at that and ask you if you're familiar with 25 this document at all. 134 1 A. Probably I've seen it. 2 Q. Okay. It would be a fair statement 3 that this is a document that was provided by 4 Eaton to my office? 5 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. We'll 6 stipulate that this came from our -- the 7 document collection. 8 MR. VONA: Is the stipulation anything 9 that has that -- this caption - 10 MR. PETTICORD: I'll stipulate that 11 anything that has an EAB Bates number on it - 12 MR. VONA: EAB. 13 MR. PETTICORD: -- EAB Bates number 14 came from my office, if that will help you. 15 MR. VONA: I appreciate it. Thanks, 16 Dan. 17 BY MR. VONA: 18 Q. Can I direct your attention real quick 19 to the second page? Does that indicate when 20 this document was created? 21 A. March 1979. 22 Q. Okay. And what is this document? 23 A. It's a -- like a data sheet, Molded 24 Materials Company, division of Carlisle 25 Corporation, preliminary engineering, product 135 1 data sheet, Carlisle K-79, asbestos-free brake 2 block. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. Description of the physical 5 characteristics and chemical properties and size 6 and application. 7 Q. Do you know when Eaton received this 8 document? 9 A. I don't know specifically, no. 10 Q. Okay. You have no personal knowledge 11 then as to when they would have gotten this? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Would you agree with me at least that 14 in March of 1979, Carlisle was offering 15 asbestos-free brake block? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Okay. And if you can look at the 18 second paragraph, it says "the Carlisle K-79 19 brake block will give equal or superior 20 performance results to that of asbestos-based 21 components of the same friction rating. 22 Carlisle K-79 material is compatible with all 23 styles of brake drums and has been designed to 24 yield longer brake drum life than original 25 equipment level blocks with the same or higher 136 1 friction level rating." 2 Do you know if -- based on that, do you 3 know if Eaton ever used this brake block? 4 A. No, not specifically. 5 Q. Okay. So you have no idea if they ever 6 used it at all? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Okay. Do you know why? 9 MR. PETTICORD: Why what? 10 BY MR. VONA: 11 Q. Why they didn't use it. 12 MR. PETTICORD: That's not what he 13 said. 14 MR. VONA: He said he doesn't - 15 MR. PETTICORD: You said does he know 16 if Eaton ever used the brake block. 17 BY MR. VONA: 18 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge that 19 Eaton ever used this brake block? 20 A. On this specific number, no. I do know 21 that there was testing going on early on of 22 various non-asbestos materials. 23 Q. Did, did Eaton ever use an 24 asbestos-free brake block manufactured by 25 Carlisle? 137 1 A. I would say yes. 2 Q. Do you have any idea when that first 3 occurred? 4 A. Well, it probably first occurred during 5 testing, fleet testing, field testing, and I 6 know that there initially were problems in the 7 field with some of the non-asbestos block that 8 was put out there on test. 9 Q. Okay. Do you have any kind of estimate 10 as a date when that would have occurred? 11 A. Probably late '70s, early '80s. 12 Q. Okay. And there was a line by itself 13 there. It says "Carlisle K-79 is registered as 14 an FF friction block with AAMVA." 15 Help me out. What does that mean, if 16 you know? 17 A. American Automobile -- no. 18 MR. PETTICORD: If you know. 19 BY MR. VONA: 20 Q. If you know. 21 A. I'm going to say no, I don't know. 22 Q. All right. What does FF friction block 23 mean? Do you know what that is? 24 A. It's a designation for the level of 25 friction that that block attains, like low, 138 1 medium, high. 2 Q. I'm going to take a stab at it. Would 3 the AAMVA be something like the American 4 Association of Motor Vehicles - 5 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. Motor 6 vehicles - 7 THE WITNESS: Something like that. 8 BY MR. VONA: 9 Q. Okay. And if you can look at -- on the 10 second page, 344, and under vehicle application 11 recommendations, it says "the Carlisle K-79 12 asbestos-free brake block is recommended for 13 tractor drive axles and trailer axle brakes used 14 in typical service such as interstate 15 tractor/trailer van operations." 16 What -- if you know, what does that - 17 what is meant by that? What is interstate 18 tractor/trailer van operations? 19 A. It just means for an over-the-road, 20 freight-hauling type truck that's on highway. 21 It's not a dump truck or mixer truck going off 22 highway. 23 Q. So that's something I kind of learned 24 going through this case that there's a 25 difference. 139 1 A. Right. 2 Q. So you mentioned you met -- read 3 Mr. Regan's testimony. What type of trucks were 4 worked on at Roadway between 1980 and 1990? 5 A. At that particular site, according to 6 his deposition, he was working on mainly 7 medium-duty pick-up and delivery trucks with the 8 occasional line-haul type truck doing 9 preventative maintenance work. 10 Q. Did he work on tractor trailers? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. 13 MR. PETTICORD: Done? 14 MR. VONA: Yeah, I'm good with that for 15 now. I'm going to skip this one. 16 BY MR. VONA: 17 Q. Actually, would you agree with me, sir, 18 that by the late 1970s, that Eaton was aware 19 that asbestos was coming under scrutiny from the 20 government? 21 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 22 THE WITNESS: Can you ask a more 23 specific question? 24 MR. VONA: Well, I'm trying to avoid 25 using this document. 140 1 MR. PETTICORD: But -- so no. Okay. 2 That's fine. I don't want you to yell at me 3 anymore. 4 MR. VONA: No, I'm not yelling at you, 5 Dan. Come on. 6 THE WITNESS: To my knowledge, I can't 7 remember the specific years, but it was when 8 OSHA started implementing regulations relating 9 to asbestos. That was my exposure to when those 10 specific changes started. 11 BY MR. VONA: 12 Q. Are you familiar with when OSHA came 13 into existence? 14 A. Off the top of my head I cannot 15 remember specifically. I would say late '70s. 16 Q. If I told you that OSHA came into 17 existence in 1971, would you have any reason to 18 disagree with me? 19 A. No, I wouldn't. 20 Q. And that they promulgated their first 21 regulations in 1972, you would have no reason to 22 disagree with me? 23 A. No, I have no reason to disagree with 24 you. 25 MR. VONA: I'm going to skip that one 141 1 anyway. Let's move on to 23. 2 (Whereupon, Hobbie Exhibit 23, an 3 informative request from Ford to Eaton talking 4 about willingness to work in a joint program, 5 was then received and marked for 6 identification.) 7 BY MR. VONA: 8 Q. Showing you what's been marked as 9 Hobbie Number 23, and I'd like to ask you, are 10 you familiar with this document at all? 11 MR. PETTICORD: Wait a minute. This is 12 not -- this is a four document -- although it 13 came from our document production, read it 14 first. 15 MR. VONA: Sure. 16 MR. PETTICORD: Especially since I 17 think I know where he's headed. 18 THE WITNESS: Okay. 19 BY MR. VONA: 20 Q. All set? Okay. And well, what is this 21 document, best you can tell? 22 MR. PETTICORD: If you know. 23 BY MR. VONA: 24 Q. What does it appear to be? 25 A. It appears to be an informative request 142 1 from Ford to Eaton talking about willingness to 2 work in a joint program, and in this particular 3 case, as far as we're talking here, about 4 developing a -- an asbestos-free brake lining 5 material having desirable characteristics of 6 present organic materials. And there's also 7 another comment about an internal parking brake 8 to replace the drive line parking brake that was 9 standard in the vehicles at that time. 10 Q. Okay. We won't talk about that. 11 A. That's a separate issue. 12 Q. When's this letter dated, sir? 13 A. May 22nd, 1979. 14 Q. And going to the third page -- well, 15 strike that. 16 Before I get there, would you agree 17 with me that at least in 1979 -- May of 1979, 18 Ford was requesting an asbestos-free brake 19 lining? 20 A. Yeah. I think they were requesting a 21 program be initiated to try to develop that, 22 yes. 23 Q. Okay. And that third-page document, 24 the third-page document, Bates 796, what is the 25 title of that document there? 143 1 A. Supplier Research Department Need Item. 2 Q. Do you have any idea what that means? 3 A. I think it's - 4 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 5 THE WITNESS: It looks to me like it's 6 an initial request to a joint working program to 7 start on a program to meet the need for the 8 asbestos brake lining. 9 BY MR. VONA: 10 Q. Do you know when, if ever, Eaton was 11 able to fill this request? 12 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 13 THE WITNESS: No. I'd have to say 14 it's, it's when Ford was able to approve a 15 non-asbestos lining for that application. 16 BY MR. VONA: 17 Q. Do you know when that was roughly? 18 A. Roughly late '80s. 19 Q. Okay. And I think we've already 20 established that, that MM8C5 lining was the 21 standard lining at least up until 1985? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Correct? And that was also 24 asbestos-containing. We've established that. 25 A. Yes, high-friction lining. 144 1 Q. So would it be fair to say that if 2 Eaton ever did fulfill this request, it would 3 have been post 1985? 4 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 5 THE WITNESS: I'd say yes. 6 BY MR. VONA: 7 Q. Any idea why it took so long? 8 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 9 BY MR. VONA: 10 Q. If you know. 11 MR. PETTICORD: Just go no. 12 THE WITNESS: Okay. No. 13 MR. PETTICORD: No, no, no. That's as 14 far as it's going to go. 15 MR. VONA: That's improper, but - 16 MR. PETTICORD: Yeah, it is. It's an 17 improper question. Let's move on to the next 18 document. 19 MR. VONA: You can note your objection, 20 but that is a one pager. 21 (Whereupon, Hobbie Exhibit 24, an 22 interoffice correspondence dated December 14th, 23 1982, was then received and marked for 24 identification.) 25 BY MR. VONA: 145 1 Q. Let me show you what's been marked as 2 Hobbie Number 24. Okay. Do you recognize this 3 document at all? 4 A. Vaguely. 5 Q. All right. And it's an interoffice 6 correspondence, correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. 1982, December 14th? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And the subject matter is -- deals with 11 non-asbestos linings? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What I'd like to have you look at is 14 the second paragraph from the bottom. And 15 instead of reading, why don't you just read that 16 to yourself. 17 A. Okay. 18 Q. My question to you is with regard to at 19 least the applications that they're talking 20 about here, in 1982, the non-asbestos material 21 actually performed better than the asbestos 22 material; is that right? 23 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 24 THE WITNESS: Yes, based on those 25 statements, yes. 146 1 BY MR. VONA: 2 Q. Yeah. And underneath that it says 3 negatives. "Some non-asbestos materials have 4 lower flexor strength and impact strength than 5 typical asbestos materials which results in more 6 damage during shipping, handling and assembly. 7 Although this is not a problem with vehicle 8 operation, it does contribute to cost." 9 I guess my question is at least with 10 regard to this particular application, Eaton is 11 saying that asbestos work -- or non-asbestos 12 works better than asbestos, but that it has more 13 cost to it? 14 MR. PETTICORD: No, that's not what the 15 document says. 16 MR. VONA: Why don't you explain. 17 MR. PETTICORD: You cannot -- I'll give 18 you a lot of latitude because I'm a nice guy, 19 but you cannot continue to take a sentence out 20 of a document and then change the meaning of the 21 sentence and get him to agree with it because 22 all that's going to do is take forever and a day 23 to fix later. 24 So I would appreciate it if you would 25 limit your questions about documents to asking 147 1 about the documents or asking him independent 2 questions, but what you're doing is wrong, and 3 it's not fair to the witness, and I will be 4 quiet now. Go ahead. 5 MR. VONA: Thank you, Dan. 6 MR. PETTICORD: You're welcome. 7 BY MR. VONA: 8 Q. Well, why don't you explain to me, if 9 you know, what does that mean? 10 A. This is not a cost issue. It's more of 11 a manufacturing handling issue, and this flexor 12 strength, impact strength had to do with some of 13 the early linings, and the typical way of 14 handling lining applications on the shoe, the 15 non-asbestos would tend to crack and break, and 16 it would have problems that way; and also in the 17 shipping and handling side of it. So those were 18 just - 19 MR. PETTICORD: Let him finish the 20 question. 21 MR. VONA: I thought he was done. 22 MR. PETTICORD: Not when he's in the 23 middle of a word. 24 MR. VONA: Go ahead. 25 THE WITNESS: Those were just things 148 1 that were being noted that were different than 2 past experience with the previously-used brake 3 lining. 4 In addition, even at this time, I'm 5 familiar with -- I don't have the specifics of 6 it, but I know we were field testing linings 7 with certain truck fleets, non-asbestos linings, 8 and there was a blistering problem. And as any 9 of these truck fleets were concerned, when you 10 start changing things, it causes them problems 11 in their operations because you're now 12 introducing a completely new system into what 13 they've had standardized for a long period of 14 time. So it isn't just flip a switch and make 15 it happen type thing. 16 MR. VONA: I have to move to strike the 17 portions that are non-responsive. 18 BY MR. VONA: 19 Q. So the fact of the matter here is that 20 when they talk about it does contribute to cost, 21 they're talking about shipping costs or 22 something else? 23 MR. PETTICORD: The answer stands for 24 what the answer is. Whether you -25 MR. VONA: There's a question pending. 149 1 THE WITNESS: The cost is different, 2 yes, but -- because of circumstances. 3 BY MR. VONA: 4 Q. All right. 5 A. You can correct some of those 6 circumstances, which they probably did. 7 MR. VONA: Mark 25. 8 (Whereupon, Hobbie Exhibit 25, an 9 internal Eaton program to qualify non-asbestos 10 linings, was then received and marked for 11 identification.) 12 BY MR. VONA: 13 Q. I want to show you what's been marked 14 as Hobbie 25. Are you at all familiar with this 15 document? 16 A. Looks like an internal Eaton program to 17 qualify non-asbestos linings. It's just an 18 information notice to what the steps - 19 evidently the steps that were being taken to 20 qualify the various non-asbestos linings that 21 were available. 22 Q. Do you, do you, do you have any idea 23 when this document was created? 24 MR. PETTICORD: If you know. 25 THE WITNESS: The one statement in 150 1 January of 1979. So it was referring - 2 probably in that era, I would guess. 3 BY MR. VONA: 4 Q. So we could agree at least that it was 5 after January of 1979? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Okay. And the last paragraph is what 8 I'm concerned with. "The other hurtle to 9 overcome with non-asbestos linings is the cost 10 premium. Lining suppliers are quoting increases 11 in the area of 30 percent over asbestos-based 12 linings." 13 Now, would you agree with me, at least 14 at this point in time, that the actual costs of 15 the linings is a consideration? 16 A. Cost is always a consideration. 17 MR. PETTICORD: At this point in 18 time - 19 THE WITNESS: It's not the only 20 consideration. 21 MR. PETTICORD: At this point in time 22 meaning when this document was written. 23 MR. VONA: When this document was 24 written, correct. 25 BY MR. VONA: 151 1 Q. And you said it's always a 2 consideration. 3 A. One of many considerations. 4 Q. Why is cost a consideration? 5 A. Just the economics of it. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. Plus, you know, there's risk costs and 8 other things, too. 9 Q. Well -- and I guess correct me if I'm 10 wrong, if, if the -- your products that you're 11 selling cost more, your customers aren't going 12 to be happy, correct? 13 A. Exactly. 14 Q. Okay. The next part of that paragraph 15 says "until legislation prohibits the use of 16 asbestos-based linings, we see this premium 17 preventing a widespread demand for non-asbestos 18 linings. Frankly, at the current stage of 19 development, it is best that there be no sudden 20 rush to non-asbestos linings." 21 Do you have any understanding as to 22 what's being said here; what is being meant? 23 A. Some of the initial testing was not 24 compatible to field applications. 25 Q. Okay. 152 1 A. Customer applications. 2 Q. And are they, are they also referring 3 to this premium -- the cost premium, as well? 4 A. Well, yes, in the previous part there 5 where, like you said, that you start raising the 6 price and the customers, if there's a -- you 7 know, they're going to object to increased cost. 8 Q. Okay. And we've already established 9 this document was created from some point past 10 1979 to today? 11 A. Right. 12 Q. Would you agree with me then when this 13 document was created, that Eaton was in no 14 hurry - 15 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 16 MR. VONA: -- to introduce asbestos 17 linings? 18 MR. PETTICORD: Objection, objection, 19 objection, objection. 20 MR. VONA: That's fine. 21 MR. PETTICORD: If you can answer that 22 kind of question, answer that kind of question. 23 BY MR. VONA: 24 Q. You can answer it. 25 A. Eaton was always in a hurry to make any 153 1 product improvement that best suited their 2 customers' requirements. And, and I would 3 basically say from my knowledge, they were - 4 they did feel that going to non-asbestos linings 5 was a priority. 6 They knew that they weren't going to 7 shortchange the testing, and that included field 8 testing and dynamometer testing, just to get the 9 product to the market if it was not capable of 10 doing what was required of it legally. 11 Q. When did that first become a priority, 12 what you just said? 13 A. I'd have to say that probably in the 14 late '70s, early '80s. 15 Q. Okay. And with regard to -- strike 16 that. 17 I'm done with that. 18 MR. PETTICORD: Are you running out of 19 folders? 20 MR. VONA: We're getting there. I have 21 two folders left. 22 MR. PETTICORD: Hopefully they're 23 small. 24 MR. VONA: I don't know if we're that 25 lucky. 154 1 BY MR. VONA: 2 Q. Let's see if I can shortcut this a 3 little bit. Do you recall when you gave 4 testimony last year that it was your belief that 5 Eaton ceased the grinding of brake linings 6 sometime in the early 1970s -- or I'm sorry, 7 late 1970s, early 1980s? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. That's what you testified to, correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 MR. VONA: Okay. And bear with me. 12 I'm trying to save us a little time. I'm not 13 going to ask about this one. 14 (Whereupon, Hobbie Exhibit 26, a 15 document concerning the lining grind elimination 16 program, was then received and marked for 17 identification.) 18 BY MR. VONA: 19 Q. I'm going to show you Hobbie 26, and 20 I'll ask you if you've ever seen this document 21 before. 22 A. Probably, yes. 23 Q. Okay. And what are we discussing here? 24 A. Lining grind elimination program. 25 Q. Okay. And Dan's correct that there is 155 1 no, there is no date on this. I can direct you 2 to the last sentence. It says "the target is to 3 eliminate the grinding by January 1980." 4 Would it be fair to agree that this 5 document was created before January of 1980? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Okay. 8 MR. PETTICORD: Look above the Bates 9 number. 10 MR. VONA: This handwritten - 11 MR. PETTICORD: If you care. 12 MR. VONA: That's fine. 13 BY MR. VONA: 14 Q. And if you could, could you just read 15 to yourself the first portion of this? And I 16 just have some questions about it. Up to the 17 sentence where it says "500 degrees Fahrenheit, 18 burnish temperature like medium-friction 19 linings." Up to that point. 20 MR. PETTICORD: Actually - 21 MR. VONA: He could read the whole 22 thing if he wants. Go for it. 23 MR. PETTICORD: There's only two other 24 sentences, and the next sentence is -25 MR. VONA: That's fine. 156 1 THE WITNESS: Okay. 2 BY MR. VONA: 3 Q. Okay. I guess my question is is what 4 type of process are they discussing here? 5 A. Basically, basically going to a lining 6 block supplied by the lining manufacturers that 7 has a surface on it equivalent to what a ground 8 block would have. So the initial friction would 9 be comparable without grinding it. 10 Q. Okay. And we talked about a little bit 11 the grinding that it was something that occurred 12 at the Eaton facilities. Why was that done? I 13 just don't understand. 14 A. Well, basically, to -- basically, we're 15 saying that in order to meet the burnish 16 requirements, which they're SAE test standards 17 that basically tell you the procedures and 18 process for burnishing brake in to run an SAE 19 series qualification test to meet federal motor 20 vehicle standards, that they were basically 21 trying to develop -- get the lining 22 manufacturers to develop a block that you didn't 23 have to grind, that it would be capable of 24 meeting that specification without grinding it. 25 Q. What does that mean, burnish? That's 157 1 what I'm not following. I need an education 2 here unfortunately. 3 A. It's, it's when a brake is run through 4 a certain process as it's mounted in the drum, 5 and this can be done on a vehicle or on a 6 dynamometer, and you run it through application 7 cycles at certain speeds and take it up to 8 certain heat -- there are SAE specifications 9 written in SAE manuals that tell you how to do 10 that. 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. And it's basically breaking in the 13 brake. 14 Q. So when the, when the -- this, this 15 burnishing -- or strike that. 16 When this grinding would occur at 17 Eaton, are they, are they actually grinding the 18 face of the lining? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. That's to meet certain requirements? 21 A. Right. Surface the texture of the 22 surface and the contour of the surface. 23 Q. Okay. Have, have you ever changed 24 brakes yourself? 25 A. Sure. 158 1 MR. PETTICORD: On a truck? 2 MR. VONA: Any brakes. 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 BY MR. VONA: 5 Q. What brakes have you changed? 6 A. Lots of -- well, I started out as a 7 test technician, and one of my functions was to 8 install brakes and run tests on those driving 9 vehicles following these SAE standard practice 10 procedures. And of course, I've done brakes 11 over the years. When I was in high school, I 12 worked in a gas station. We did brake jobs. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. And all that. 15 Q. So you've done -- is it fair to say 16 you've done brake jobs on trucks and passenger 17 cars? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. When's the last time you did a brake 20 job on either type of vehicle? 21 A. I did it on my own personal car 22 probably six months ago. 23 Q. Okay. Where did you learn how to do 24 that? 25 A. Basically, well, somewhat in auto shop 159 1 class in high school and on-the-job training 2 in -- as I said, I worked part time in high 3 school in a gas station, service station. 4 Q. Okay. During your employ at Eaton, 5 have you ever observed brakes being changed on a 6 tractor trailer out in the field at any time? 7 A. Sure, yes. 8 Q. Okay. When would that have been 9 roughly, if you can give me a time frame, I 10 guess? 11 A. Well, really from the time I started in 12 1959 could be up through 1997 when I left the 13 company. 14 Q. Okay. Okay. Then, then based on your 15 personal experience, have -- strike that. 16 Based on your personal experience, 17 would you agree with me that some mechanics who 18 have been changing brakes would use compressed 19 air to clean out brake drums? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay. Making this easy on me. Good. 22 And would you agree with me from your personal 23 experience that some brake mechanics would 24 actually sand the face of the lining before 25 installing the new linings? 160 1 MR. PETTICORD: Can you give me a time 2 frame? 3 MR. VONA: Anytime, anytime. 4 MR. PETTICORD: Anytime. 5 THE WITNESS: I'm aware that people did 6 it, but Eaton never recommended that that be 7 done at any time. 8 BY MR. VONA: 9 Q. That's fair enough, but you've observed 10 that, haven't you? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Have you ever observed that with regard 13 to a tractor trailer brake job? 14 MR. PETTICORD: Observed what, though? 15 The air or the grinding or both? 16 MR. VONA: Actually, let's start with 17 the air. 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 19 BY MR. VONA: 20 Q. Okay. How about the sanding? 21 A. I guess I'm aware of it. I know that 22 I've seen reports where somebody basically said 23 that so and so observed somebody doing that type 24 thing. 25 Q. Have you yourself ever used compressed 161 1 air during a brake job? 2 A. That's Fifth Amendment. 3 Q. I won't hold it against you. 4 A. Sure, I have. 5 Q. So you'd agree that it's common 6 practice amongst mechanics? 7 A. It was, it was -- yes, it probably 8 could be considered common practice, but it was 9 never a practice that was approved by any shop 10 as far as safety procedures were concerned. 11 That just wasn't something you did is blow dirt 12 all around the place. 13 It could have been dirt that was swept 14 up on the floor. You didn't take an air hose 15 and blow it all over the place. It took an 16 extra effort to use brake solvents and later 17 vacuums, shop vacs and things like that, to 18 clean it up with. 19 Generally, when people were working in 20 a shop, you just -- it wasn't necessarily 21 appreciated if somebody did that, because you 22 were blowing dirt onto somebody else's job in 23 the next bay, too. 24 Q. Nevertheless, it did occur, right? 25 A. It did occur, right. 162 1 Q. Okay. I think I'm good with this one, 2 whatever that was. 3 MR. PETTICORD: 29443. 4 MR. VONA: Okay. Let me see where I'm 5 at. 6 (Whereupon, Hobbie Exhibit 27, a 7 document concerning a field visit report, 8 Certified Grocers, Trailmobile grinding brake 9 linings to fit drums on the trailer axles, was 10 then received and marked for identification.) 11 BY MR. VONA: 12 Q. Let me show you Hobbie 27. And are you 13 familiar with this document at all? 14 A. I've probably seen it before, yes. 15 Q. Okay. If you take a look under copy -16 A. Yeah, I'm copied on it. 17 Q. You were actually copied. 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. It's a little difficult. Can you read 20 out the date there? 21 A. It looks like May 28th, 1986. 22 Q. I agree with that. Okay. And what's 23 the subject matter here? 24 A. Field report -- field visit report, 25 Certified Grocers, Trailmobile grinding brake 163 1 linings to fit drums on the trailer axles. 2 Q. Okay. Do you need to review this, or 3 can I ask you some questions about it? 4 A. Yeah, go ahead and ask. 5 Q. Does this document essentially discuss, 6 at least to an extent -- strike that. 7 Does this document discuss 8 representative Eaton going out to a field visit 9 to grind brake linings? 10 A. I don't think the Eaton representative 11 necessarily went out to grind brake linings, but 12 he was there observing what they were doing, 13 usually what was called Brake Doctor. 14 Q. And I wanted to ask you, do you know 15 what that is? 16 A. Yeah. Brake Doctor was a machine that 17 essentially mounted on the axle spindle, and it 18 had a device with the brake shoes mounted in 19 place without the drum on, that would basically 20 true the brake linings to the center of the 21 spindle. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. And that, that was also -- it was 24 probably more readily used in Europe by trucking 25 fleets than it was in the United States, but for 164 1 some reason they were -2 Q. Does that machine grind the brake 3 linings? 4 A. I'm not sure if it grinds it or, or 5 cuts it. There's a difference, so I'm not sure 6 about that. 7 Q. Have you ever seen one of these 8 machines? 9 A. Yeah. In fact, we used to have one in 10 our assembly plant in Cleveland. It wasn't used 11 very often, but it could be. It could have been 12 used, but that's back in the '50s. 13 Q. Okay. What kind of, what kind of - 14 whether it's grinding or cutting it, what type 15 of surface is the brake lining coming against? 16 A. Well, I think it was like a cutting 17 tool, if I remember right. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. Basically. 20 Q. All right. This -- what's being 21 discussed here, is this a type of service that 22 Eaton normally supplied to its customers? 23 A. Not this grinding which is -- or the 24 use of the Brake Doctor. We didn't have one in 25 the field, and, and it looks to me that this 165 1 Hetzel Brake Service Company was demonstrating 2 this unit to Certified Grocers. Our guy was 3 there to observe what was going on. 4 Q. Well, if you have to read the document, 5 that's fair, but isn't it true that this was 6 done because there was a problem with the brake 7 linings that were sent by Eaton? Take a look if 8 you need to. 9 A. Yeah, I would say that that's probably, 10 probably the case, that they at least perceived 11 that there was some problem going on. And of 12 course, our guy -- his statement did say that - 13 about the conditions improving -- proving the 14 brake performance for conditions found but later 15 agreed to the Brake Doctoring process as an 16 acceptable remedy. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. And he wasn't giving a blanket approval 19 to it. He just said in this particular case, 20 because we never had anything in any of our 21 service literature, service manuals or anything 22 that would recommend doing that. 23 Q. Okay. And -- okay. That's fine. 24 A. Sort of a one-of case. 25 Q. They were trying to keep the customer 166 1 happy? 2 A. Yeah, right. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. Make sure that they were satisfied with 5 its overall performance. 6 Q. So at least with regard to -- well, 7 first of all -- strike that. 8 Do you know -- I apologize if I asked 9 this, but did Eaton ever stop grinding within 10 its facilities? 11 A. Yes. 12 MR. PETTICORD: Brakes? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 BY MR. VONA: 15 Q. If so, when? I'm sorry. I may have 16 asked this, and I apologize. 17 MR. PETTICORD: You didn't. You're 18 good. I think the time frame would probably be 19 good. 20 THE WITNESS: Time frame, late '70s. 21 BY MR. VONA: 22 Q. Yeah, that's fine. But at least with 23 regard to this document, it was ongoing in the 24 field in 1986, correct? 25 A. Well, no, no, this is just one case. 167 1 This wasn't an ongoing thing in the field. This 2 is something they were just trying here, and it 3 looks to me like it was something that this 4 brake -- Hetzel Brake Service Company was trying 5 to provide for Certified Grocers. That would be 6 my, my guess. 7 MR. VONA: Okay. That's fine. 8 (Whereupon, Hobbie Exhibit 28, a 9 document entitled Employee Training Program For 10 Asbestos, Eaton Corporation, Gallatin, 11 Tennessee, was then received and marked for 12 identification.) 13 BY MR. VONA: 14 Q. I'm going to show you what's been 15 marked as Hobbie Number 28, and I'll represent 16 to you that this is -- was also exhibit Hobbie 17 Number 5 last year. So would it be fair that 18 you're familiar with this document? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. I'm not going to ask you to read the 21 whole thing. First of all, what's the title of 22 this document? 23 A. Employee Training Program for Asbestos, 24 Eaton Corporation, Gallatin, Tennessee, and that 25 would be the Gallatin manufacturing plant. 168 1 Q. Okay. When's this dated? 2 A. October 1986. 3 Q. To your knowledge, was there ever any 4 employee training program regarding asbestos 5 prior to this? 6 A. Not to my knowledge. 7 Q. Fair enough. And what does this 8 document discuss just generally? 9 A. I think it's -- basically follows the 10 OSHA guidelines and basically training the 11 employees in the plant about what those 12 guidelines were relating to asbestos. 13 Q. Okay. And if you could, I direct your 14 attention to Bates 702. That will be, that will 15 be the best way to find it, I think. 16 A. Okay. 17 Q. Let me know when you're there. 18 A. Got it. 19 Q. And just to -- and the last paragraph, 20 just to give you some context with this, 21 "certain job classifications have been 22 identified as having potential employee 23 exposures to asbestos above the action level." 24 And if you could flip to the next page, 25 and at the top, it says "the following is a list 169 1 of these job classifications including a 2 description of the facility location and manner 3 of use release and storage of 4 asbestos-containing materials." 5 And I direct you to number three, and 6 just take a look at that. The section titled 7 grinding. 8 A. Uh-huh. 9 Q. Okay. And would it be fair to say that 10 at least in 1986, that the grinding of brake 11 linings was still occurring at an Eaton 12 facility? 13 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. Read 14 subpart three and then answer the question. 15 THE WITNESS: I think I know what this 16 is talking about. 17 BY MR. VONA: 18 Q. Well, my question is to you, though, at 19 least -- if I may, my question is even if it's 20 with regard to specific handling of shoes, would 21 you agree with me that there's still grinding of 22 linings going on at an Eaton facility in 1986? 23 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. Give him 24 the answer that you want to give him. 25 THE WITNESS: Basically, this is 170 1 referring to heavy-duty, off-road cast brake 2 shoes for heavy-duty, probably 18-inch brakes 3 which were very limited production. And they 4 probably -- and to the best of my recollection, 5 they were not able to come up with the lining or 6 they -- the lining manufacturers were not able 7 to come up with a lining for that heavy-duty 8 brake that met the, you know, the burnishing 9 requirements that we talked about earlier for 10 the high-production, sixteen-and-a-half by 11 seven-inch brake. 12 And in fact, those brakes I think 13 were -- about this time, those -- a lot of those 14 brakes would have been non-asbestos, and they 15 may have been grinding non-asbestos linings. 16 BY MR. VONA: 17 Q. Okay. And I'll -- looking at number 18 three, it says "grinding: Located in the brake 19 shoe riveting and grinding area, the linings on 20 certain brake shoes require surface grinding. 21 Asbestos fibers may be released during handling 22 of shoes and grinding of linings." 23 A. It does say that. 24 Q. So would you agree with me that at 25 least some of the linings that were being ground 171 1 contained asbestos? 2 A. Or that they just wanted to cover all 3 bases and make sure that if there were some 4 asbestos in there, yeah, it was -5 Q. You can't state with any certainty that 6 they weren't grinding asbestos linings? 7 A. Exactly, yeah. 8 Q. If you could go to page 706, Bates 706. 9 Sorry. Let me know when you're there. 10 A. Got it. 11 Q. All right. And I'm looking at the 12 third paragraph from the bottom. Okay. And 13 again, this is in 1986. About halfway through 14 that paragraph, starting with however, do you 15 see where I'm at? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. "However, it is recognized that fibers 18 may be released during various phases of the 19 manufacturing process such as unpacking, 20 handling, insulation, riveting, grinding and 21 re-packaging." 22 Would you agree with that statement? 23 MR. PETTICORD: Hold on. I may be on 24 the wrong page. 25 MR. VONA: On 706. 172 1 MR. PETTICORD: And you're saying in 2 the third paragraph - 3 MR. VONA: Third paragraph. 4 THE WITNESS: From the bottom. 5 MR. VONA: From the bottom. I'm sorry. 6 MR. PETTICORD: Oh, okay. 7 MR. VONA: He's with me. 8 MR. PETTICORD: I'm the lost one here. 9 Let me catch up. 10 MR. VONA: Starting with "however." 11 MR. PETTICORD: I got you. I'm just 12 slow. Go ahead. I'm sorry. Go ahead. 13 BY MR. VONA: 14 Q. Sir, would you agree with that 15 statement? 16 A. Sure, yes. 17 Q. That those type of procedures could 18 potentially release asbestos fibers in an 19 asbestos-containing brake lining? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay. And would it be fair to say that 22 Eaton recognized this in 1986 based on this 23 document? 24 A. Yes. And they said "therefore, various 25 precautionary measures have been implemented in 173 1 our manufacturing process to reduce the 2 potential for exposure to airborne asbestos." 3 Q. Okay. What type of precautionary 4 measures did Eaton take? 5 MR. PETTICORD: Read the next 6 paragraph. 7 BY MR. VONA: 8 Q. I have a question. If you can answer 9 it - 10 MR. PETTICORD: You have to be fair 11 within the context of the document. 12 MR. VONA: Well, I mean, he can answer 13 the question. 14 MR. PETTICORD: He sure can, but you 15 have to be fair with the document. 16 MR. VONA: I can't read the whole thing 17 either. I mean, if you want -- I mean, Dan, you 18 know, you can redirect on it if you want. I 19 mean, I think he can answer it. 20 MR. PETTICORD: He can. 21 THE WITNESS: Yeah. They put in 22 respiratory protection masks for the operators, 23 plus high-flow ventilation systems, ventilation 24 of the area around the machines to filter out 25 the dust and things like that. 174 1 BY MR. VONA: 2 Q. Okay. Do you know if -- do you know 3 approximately when they started doing that; when 4 Eaton started doing that? 5 A. No, I don't. 6 Q. Okay. 7 MR. PETTICORD: By "that," just for 8 clarification, you mean the precautions listed 9 in the letter on page - 10 MR. VONA: Yeah. 11 MR. PETTICORD: -- 1876. 12 MR. VONA: What he just testified to. 13 MR. PETTICORD: Okay. I got you. Fair 14 enough. 15 BY MR. VONA: 16 Q. You can put that one to the side for 17 now. Don't lose it, though. We're going to 18 need that one again. 19 Mr. Hobbie, am I correct that before 20 selling its brakes containing asbestos, to your 21 knowledge, that Eaton did not conduct any 22 pre-market tests of its brakes concerning its 23 potential to cause injury from exposure to 24 asbestos? 25 A. I'm not aware of any. 175 1 Q. Okay. And during the time frame since 2 Eaton started selling asbestos-containing brake 3 linings, and we'll say up to 1990, isn't it true 4 that Eaton never conducted any tests on its 5 brakes that contained asbestos to determine 6 whether they posed a health risk? 7 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. Go ahead 8 and answer it, if you can. 9 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of any. 10 BY MR. VONA: 11 Q. All right. Do you know, has Eaton ever 12 done any research to determine when it was known 13 by the company that asbestos could be a 14 potential health hazard? 15 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 16 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of any. 17 BY MR. VONA: 18 Q. Okay. And do you know -- I think we 19 mentioned earlier that Eaton was a member of the 20 trade association, the American -- was it 21 trucking association? 22 A. American Trucking Association. 23 MR. PETTICORD: No. He was a member of 24 the American Trucking Association on Eaton's 25 behalf. That's fine. 176 1 BY MR. VONA: 2 Q. But you were there on behalf of Eaton, 3 correct? 4 MR. PETTICORD: Yes. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 BY MR. VONA: 7 Q. That's all I'm getting at. And also 8 the - 9 A. SAE, Society of Automotive Engineers. 10 Q. Okay. Were any other employees of 11 Eaton -- well, strike that. 12 Before I get there, were you members of 13 any other associations for Eaton? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. Which ones? 16 A. American Truck Dealers Association, the 17 Truck Renting and Leasing Association, the 18 American Trucking Association Maintenance 19 Council, which I'm still a member of. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. There was another one that was the 22 Society for Service Management Standards or 23 Perfection. 24 Q. Okay. With regard to the ATA, do you 25 know if any other employees of Eaton were also 177 1 members? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Well, with that respect, do you know 4 when an employee of Eaton first became a member 5 of the ATA? 6 A. I don't know specifically, but I would 7 guess it was probably back in the 1950s. 8 Q. Okay. Do you know -- did Eaton 9 continue -- well, at least while you were 10 employed there, were they continuously a member 11 of that organization? 12 MR. PETTICORD: Were Eaton employees 13 members of these organizations? 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. 15 BY MR. VONA: 16 Q. What was your, what was your purpose 17 for, for being a member of that association? 18 A. You were representing your company to 19 the trucking industry. The full members of the 20 association are truck operators, truck fleet 21 operators. And it's to basically get feedback 22 from them -- well, the American Trucking 23 Association is a lobbying organization is what 24 it is. 25 Q. Okay. 178 1 A. And basically, you're there 2 representing your company to ensure that you 3 know what is going on in the industry, what the 4 industry needs and wants, and basically, trying 5 to present to them what you have to fill those 6 needs and whatever. You're not there selling, 7 but you're representing your company. 8 Q. Okay. To stay informed? 9 A. Stay informed and inform them, too. 10 Q. Okay. Did it cost anything to belong 11 to it? 12 A. Oh, yes. 13 Q. Who paid for that? 14 A. Eaton. 15 Q. Fair enough. Last folder. It has some 16 documents in it, though. 17 MR. PETTICORD: The question is not 18 whether you have documents. It's whether you 19 want to use them. 20 MR. VONA: Hey. 21 (Whereupon, Hobbie Exhibit 29, a 22 document concerning going to the Department of 23 Labor, dealing with the Occupational Safety and 24 Health Administration, Docket Number H033, 25 Occupational Exposure to Asbestos, Comments of 179 1 the American Trucking Association, Incorporated, 2 was then received and marked for 3 identification.) 4 BY MR. VONA: 5 Q. I'm going to show you Hobbie 29 and ask 6 if you're familiar at all with this document. 7 A. I've probably seen it before. 8 Q. Okay. What's this document titled? 9 A. This is a document of -- going before 10 the Department of Labor, dealing with the 11 Occupational Safety and Health Administration, 12 Docket Number H033, occupational exposure to 13 asbestos, comments of the American Trucking 14 Association, Incorporated. 15 Q. Okay. And when is this dated at the 16 bottom? 17 A. Dated April 9th, 1976. 18 Q. Okay. And there's a list of names 19 there. It says attorneys. You don't know any 20 of those gentlemen, do you? 21 A. No. 22 Q. And would it be a fair statement 23 that -- well, strike that. 24 Would it be a fair statement that, that 25 Eaton 180 1 MR. PETTICORD: This isn't an Eaton 2 document. 3 BY MR. VONA: 4 Q. -- would have been a member of the ATA 5 in 1976? 6 A. Yes. 7 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 8 BY MR. VONA: 9 Q. Or -- strike that. 10 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. Go ahead. 11 BY MR. VONA: 12 Q. Would it be fair that an employee of 13 Eaton would have a member of - 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. In 1976? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Okay. And this is before OSHA, 18 correct? 19 A. No. It would have been right about the 20 middle of its implementation. 21 Q. I guess that's my -- that's a bad 22 question. These are, as you said before, 23 comments of - 24 A. Oh, I see. 25 Q. comments of the ATA before OSHA? 181 1 A. Before. Yeah, it was probably the 2 testimony - 3 MR. PETTICORD: Given to the 4 Occupational Health - 5 THE WITNESS: It's probably testimony 6 by the ATA attorneys. 7 BY MR. VONA: 8 Q. That would have been my guess, too. 9 Okay. If you could go to the last page. 755 is 10 the Bates number. Okay. And why don't you - 11 I'll have you read from the first full paragraph 12 in sum, and have you read the whole thing. I 13 won't read that into the record. 14 MR. PETTICORD: Read that to himself? 15 MR. VONA: Yeah, that's fine. 16 BY MR. VONA: 17 Q. Let me know when you're done. 18 A. Okay. I've read that paragraph. 19 MR. PETTICORD: He means one, two, 20 three. 21 MR. VONA: All the way down. 22 MR. PETTICORD: Particularly number 23 two. 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. 25 BY MR. VONA: 182 1 Q. Okay. Would you agree with me that by 2 1976, that Eaton was aware or should have been 3 aware that some brake mechanics would use 4 compressed air to clean out brake drums? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. All right. And would you also agree 7 with me that by 1976, that Eaton was aware or 8 should have been aware that some brake mechanics 9 would sand brake linings? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Okay. And also, would you agree by 12 1976, that Eaton was aware or should have been 13 aware that some brake mechanics would grind 14 brake linings? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Okay. And in particular, statement 17 number -- or number number three, number number 18 three. 19 MR. PETTICORD: Long day. 20 BY MR. VONA: 21 Q. It says that "the disassembly and 22 assembly of brake and clutch components be 23 conducted in a manner which will minimize the 24 dispersion of airborne asbestos through damp 25 wiping, vacuuming or other appropriate 183 1 techniques." 2 A. Uh-huh, yes. 3 Q. And I guess my question is do you know 4 why they were recommending that? 5 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. Go ahead, 6 if you know. 7 BY MR. VONA: 8 Q. If you know. 9 A. Yeah, to minimize the dispersion of any 10 of the dust -11 Q. Okay. 12 A. -- in the area. 13 Q. Okay. And would that be limited to the 14 person working on the vehicle? 15 MR. PETTICORD: What would? 16 MR. VONA: The exposure. 17 MR. PETTICORD: Yeah. Okay. 18 BY MR. VONA: 19 Q. Let me strike that. That was a poor 20 question. You read Mr. Regan's testimony, 21 correct? 22 A. Uh-huh. 23 Q. And you're aware that Mr. Kolasinski 24 alleges some asbestos exposure, for lack of a 25 better word, as bystander exposure? 184 1 A. Uh-huh. 2 Q. Would you agree with me that that 3 precaution in number three was would have been 4 recommended, in part, as to avoid bystander 5 exposure? 6 A. Yes, sure. 7 Q. Thank you. 8 MR. PETTICORD: Are you done with that 9 one? 10 MR. VONA: Yeah. 11 BY MR. VONA: 12 Q. Mr. Hobbie, did, did Eaton ever supply 13 any masks or respirators with its 14 asbestos-containing brakes? 15 A. No, not that I'm aware of. 16 Q. Sorry. Some of these questions I just 17 have to ask. And to your knowledge, am I 18 correct that Eaton never stated that brake 19 mechanics, brake mechanics should not grind 20 brakes? 21 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 22 MR. VONA: Do you understand the 23 question? 24 MR. PETTICORD: If you understand the 25 question. 185 1 THE WITNESS: I understand the 2 question, and I'd say no, we never did. It was 3 basically understood as a given shop practice 4 that you didn't do things like that. Number 5 one, it could have destroyed the contour of the 6 brake. 7 BY MR. VONA: 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. And that's what we didn't want to have 10 happen, but it was just understood as a common 11 shop practice you would not do something like 12 that. 13 Q. Well, looking back at Hobbie 29, they 14 do discuss the grinding of asbestos brakes, do 15 they not? 16 MR. PETTICORD: Which one is Hobbie 29? 17 MR. VONA: The one we just looked at. 18 MR. PETTICORD: The OSHA stuff? 19 MR. VONA: Yeah, the last page. 20 MR. PETTICORD: You're talking about 21 subpart one? Is that where you're at? 22 THE WITNESS: Basically, I read that it 23 says do not do any grinding, cutting, drilling, 24 sanding or -25 BY MR. VONA: 186 1 Q. Right. But would you agree with me 2 that this -- in 1976, this was a common practice 3 that they're trying to eliminate? 4 THE WITNESS: No. 5 MR. PETTICORD: No. Objection. If you 6 can assume -- somehow divine what four lawyers 7 working for the American Trucking Association 8 thought was a common shop practice in replacing 9 brake shoes, God bless you. If not, tell him 10 that. 11 THE WITNESS: I'd say no. 12 BY MR. VONA: 13 Q. Well, did you not testify earlier that 14 you yourself have personal knowledge that the 15 sanding of asbestos-containing brake linings did 16 occur? 17 A. On limited occasions, yes, it was 18 reported. 19 Q. Okay. And am I correct that Eaton 20 never stated to anyone that brake mechanics 21 should not sand brakes? 22 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 23 THE WITNESS: Should not sand? 24 BY MR. VONA: 25 Q. Yeah. Did they ever tell anybody don't 187 1 sand brakes? 2 A. I'd say our field people probably told 3 customers not to sand them. 4 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge of 5 that? 6 A. Not personal specifically, but just as 7 a general observation. As I mentioned, I've 8 seen reports where some of our field people 9 reported that somebody were sanding brakes, you 10 know, and they -11 Q. Did Eaton ever produce any written 12 literature to that effect? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Okay. How about with regard to 15 compressed air? Did Eaton ever produce any 16 literature stating that mechanics should not use 17 compressed air to blow out brake drums? 18 MR. PETTICORD: If you recall. 19 THE WITNESS: I vaguely remember that 20 there was something added to one of the pieces 21 of service literature for the brakes, but I 22 can't give you specific date when it was. 23 BY MR. VONA: 24 Q. Okay. Do you recall what that said? 25 A. I think it was basically outlining what 188 1 OSHA said about not dispersing dust and things 2 like that. 3 Q. But you have no idea when this 4 occurred? 5 A. No. I don't remember specifically, but 6 it was probably in the mid '80s. Something like 7 that. 8 Q. Okay. That's fine. Let me move on 9 to - 10 A. I think -- if I could add to that. 11 Q. Go ahead. 12 A. I think OSHA put out a set of rules or 13 recommendations or whatever they were about 14 doing this specific job, and I think we sort of 15 followed those recommendations at the time that 16 you contain the dust around the brake or clutch 17 and those types of things to ensure it from 18 blowing around. That's the best of my 19 knowledge. 20 Q. Is it your recollection that this was 21 put into some sort of written form? 22 A. I believe it was. 23 Q. Would that have been dispersed with the 24 asbestos containing friction materials that 25 Eaton was selling? 189 1 A. I don't remember that it ever was 2 dispersed with the brakes, per se, but it was 3 probably included in training programs, and 4 there was a government -- US federal government 5 brake mechanic certification program. I don't 6 know if you've ever looked at that or not. 7 Q. I'm not sure. 8 A. That was implemented probably in the 9 early '80s, I think. 10 Q. Okay. But those training programs were 11 for Eaton employees, correct? 12 A. No, no, for mechanics that worked in 13 the field; fleet mechanics and things like that. 14 So they -- a dealer or a fleet could certify by 15 having the technician take a test as far as 16 working on brakes. That's -- to my recollection 17 there was a program like that. 18 MR. VONA: Okay. 19 (Whereupon, Hobbie Exhibit 30, a 20 document concerning part of the American 21 Trucking Association tag group, was then 22 received and marked for identification.) 23 BY MR. VONA: 24 Q. Let me show you Hobbie Number 30. Take 25 a look at it. Let me know if you're familiar 190 1 with this document at all. 2 A. I've seen it before. 3 Q. Okay. In what context? Do you know? 4 A. Just when I was reviewing documents. I 5 know I saw it then. Whether I ever saw it 6 before that, although I'm familiar it's part of 7 the American Trucking Association tag group, 8 which was a committee made up of fleet operators 9 and engineers that participated together to 10 review different standards and develop new 11 standards. 12 Q. Would any manufacturers be present at 13 this - 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. -- type of meeting? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Do you know if - 18 MR. PETTICORD: Let him finish the 19 question before you jump him. 20 THE WITNESS: Sorry. 21 BY MR. VONA: 22 Q. Do you know if, do you know if an Eaton 23 representative would have been present at this 24 meeting? 25 A. Possibly. 191 1 Q. Okay. 2 MR. PETTICORD: By meeting, you're 3 talking about the July 19th - 4 BY MR. VONA: 5 Q. Yeah, this particular, this particular 6 meeting. 7 A. I'd say possibly. I don't know that 8 for sure, no. 9 Q. But again, we've confirmed that at 10 least by 1977, Eaton had employees who were 11 members of the ATA, correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Okay. And there's -- what's the title 14 of this document? 15 A. ATA Technical Advisory Group Asbestos 16 in the Workplace. 17 Q. Okay. Do you know who wrote this? 18 MR. PETTICORD: Individually or - 19 MR. VONA: Yeah, yeah. 20 THE WITNESS: Other than it's signed by 21 RE Nelson, manager of technical services, Abex 22 Corporation. He may have been the secretary of 23 the group. Something like that, for all I know. 24 I would say that -25 MR. PETTICORD: If you know. If you 192 1 don't know - 2 THE WITNESS: I don't know, but you 3 know - 4 MR. PETTICORD: If you don't know, you 5 don't know. 6 BY MR. VONA: 7 Q. So at least it's signed by somebody 8 from Abex, correct? 9 A. Right. 10 Q. Okay. And I'm just going to go to 11 specific portions and try to speed this up a 12 little bit. On the first page, second 13 paragraph, okay, it reads "the first fact is 14 that asbestos has been identified and is -- is a 15 known carcinogenic substance. By definition, a 16 carcinogen is a substance or agent producing or 17 inciting cancer." 18 Okay. Would you agree with me by 1977, 19 that Eaton was aware or should have been aware 20 that asbestos was a carcinogen that caused 21 cancer? 22 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. I think we 23 will agree that Eaton had this document within 24 its document collection when these documents 25 were selected and when they were reviewed by 193 1 your colleagues, but I don't think you have laid 2 a foundation for him to answer that question. 3 MR. VONA: Well, he can answer it if he 4 can. 5 MR. PETTICORD: He sure can, he sure 6 can. 7 THE WITNESS: I don't know, I don't 8 know that Eaton had necessarily accepted that 9 fact at that particular time. 10 BY MR. VONA: 11 Q. Well, okay. Whether or not they had 12 accepted that as truth, they should have been 13 aware that the statements were being made, 14 right? 15 A. Probably, yes. 16 Q. That's fine. Let's take a look at the 17 next page, and about halfway down, where it says 18 "let's get down to some more facts. One of the 19 more common diseases is asbestosis which is 20 caused from inhaling asbestos fibers." Okay? 21 Again, with regard to whether or not 22 Eaton accepted it or not, I want to ask you 23 should -- by 1977, should Eaton -- or was Eaton 24 aware or should they have been aware that 25 breathing asbestos fibers could potentially 194 1 cause asbestosis? 2 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. Go ahead 3 and answer, if you can. 4 THE WITNESS: Eaton probably was aware 5 of it, yeah. 6 BY MR. VONA: 7 Q. And in the next sentence, it says 8 "inhaled asbestos is also associated with the 9 development of malignant tumors in the bronchial 10 system of the lungs, and there is some 11 indications of a form of cancer of the 12 intestinal tract to be related to asbestos." 13 MR. PETTICORD: You actually skipped a 14 sentence, but that's accurate. 15 MR. VONA: Did I? I'm sorry. 16 MR. PETTICORD: That's okay. I don't 17 need it. I'm just letting you know. 18 BY MR. VONA: 19 Q. You're right. But anyway, with regard 20 to that statement, as well, would it be fair to 21 say that by 1977, that Eaton should have been 22 aware or was aware that the breathing of 23 asbestos fibers was associated with the - 24 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 25 MR. VONA: You've got to let me finish 195 1 the question, both you guys. 2 MR. PETTICORD: But you're sneaky, and 3 you skipped a word there and I want to make 4 sure - 5 MR. VONA: Let me, let me try it over. 6 MR. PETTICORD: There you go. 7 BY MR. VONA: 8 Q. I'm just trying to speed it up a 9 little. Would you agree by 1977, that Eaton was 10 aware or should have been aware that breathing 11 asbestos was associated with the development of 12 malignant tumors in the lungs, among other 13 areas? 14 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. Go ahead. 15 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Generally, I'd say 16 they were aware of it. 17 BY MR. VONA: 18 Q. Okay. And then flip to the next page. 19 And are you on 758? 20 A. Uh-huh, yes. 21 Q. The first full paragraph, you know, 22 let's just skip it. I can cover that later. 23 All right. On 761, okay? 24 A. Got it. 25 Q. All right. The last full paragraph, 196 1 what does all this mean? 2 MR. PETTICORD: The beginning of the 3 last paragraph. It's not a full paragraph. 4 BY MR. VONA: 5 Q. Yeah. It goes to the next page. "The 6 industry, in general -- I can speak more 7 specifically from my own company, the Abex 8 Corporation, is working on non-asbestos friction 9 materials. Some of these are already available. 10 Sintered metallic linings have been available 11 and in use by a number of industries for quite a 12 few years. These generally are expensive. They 13 have proven to be less cost effective in 14 automotive applications than asbestos." 15 Based on that statement, would you 16 agree with me that at least for certain 17 applications, non-asbestos linings were 18 available prior to 1977? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Okay. And would you also agree with me 21 that they were generally more expensive? 22 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. I think he 23 already testified to this - 24 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 25 MR. PETTICORD: in some detail. 197 1 THE WITNESS: I can answer if you want. 2 BY MR. VONA: 3 Q. Sure, go ahead. 4 A. They were more expensive initial cost 5 and also operating cost. 6 Q. Okay. And - 7 A. And basically did not perform to what 8 would be necessarily acceptable practices for 9 over-the-road trucks. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. And I can give you the reason for it. 12 Q. That's not necessary. How about -- and 13 I apologize for jumping around on you a little 14 bit. If you can go back to 758, and let me know 15 when you're there. 16 A. Got it. 17 Q. All right. And where -- the first full 18 paragraph, the last sentence, it starts "there 19 is no reason to believe." Let me know when 20 you're there. First full paragraph, last 21 sentence. 22 A. On 58? 23 Q. Yes, sir, 758. 24 MR. PETTICORD: And I will instruct you 25 to read at least the sentence before that. It's 198 1 the last sentence to reference - 2 BY MR. VONA: 3 Q. Yeah, go ahead and -- if you want to 4 read it. Would you agree with me by 1977, that 5 Eaton or was aware or should have been aware 6 that there was no safe level of asbestos to 7 prevent cancer? 8 MR. PETTICORD: Objection, objection, 9 objection. That's not what it says, and you 10 can't lead him to a sentence in a document and 11 then ask a different question. We've been 12 through this. 13 MR. VONA: I most certainly can ask 14 whatever questions I want. I'm just asking him 15 a general statement after reading that. 16 MR. PETTICORD: You are setting it up 17 by implying to people who do not have this 18 document - 19 BY MR. VONA: 20 Q. Let's put the document aside. Okay. 21 I'm done with that document. I just want to ask 22 you, would you agree with me by 1977, that Eaton 23 was aware or should have been aware that there's 24 no safe level for asbestos for the prevention of 25 cancer? 199 1 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. Answer if 2 you can. 3 THE WITNESS: I can't answer that. I 4 don't know. 5 BY MR. VONA: 6 Q. You don't know? You have no knowledge? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Fair enough. Did that -- at any point 9 in time did Eaton ever become aware that there 10 was no safe level for the exposure to asbestos 11 for the prevention of cancer? 12 A. Not that I'm aware of. 13 Q. Okay. 14 (Whereupon, Hobbie Exhibit 31, a 15 document received July 20th, 1979, brake 16 division, product engineering, Friction 17 Materials Work Practices Guide, was then 18 received and marked for identification.) 19 BY MR. VONA: 20 Q. Handing you what's been marked as 21 Hobbie Number 31, and are you familiar at all 22 with this document? 23 A. I think I've seen it before, yes. 24 Q. Okay. And there's a stamp on there. 25 It says received July 20th, 1979, brake 200 1 division, product engineering? 2 A. Right. 3 Q. Do you see that? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Would you agree with me that this 6 document was received by Eaton in 1979? 7 A. Yes. They state it there, yes. 8 Q. Actually, this document was created in 9 October of 1978, correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. What's the title of that? 12 A. Friction Materials Work Practices 13 Guide. 14 Q. Okay. And underneath that picture, 15 there's a -- does that indicate who created 16 this? 17 A. I'm assuming. It says Friction 18 Materials Standards Institute, Incorporated. 19 Q. Okay. Also known as the FMSI. Are you 20 familiar with that organization? 21 A. Not, not directly, no. I've heard of 22 them, but I don't know. 23 Q. Do you know if Eaton was ever a member 24 of the FMSI? 25 A. No, I do not. 201 1 Q. You don't know? 2 A. I don't know. 3 Q. Okay. You can flip to the second page 4 Bates 430. And what's, what's the title of 5 that? 6 A. Use dust collection equipment when 7 machining. 8 Q. Do you know if Eaton ever passed on 9 this information regarding dust collection 10 equipment to any of its customers? 11 A. I think, as I mentioned earlier, there 12 were OSHA standards that basically were put out 13 to the end users in the field that recommended 14 how the dust collection should be handled. 15 Q. Okay. So that would have been done by 16 OSHA, though? 17 A. Yeah. And basically, Eaton could not 18 really dictate what practices a specific shop 19 used, and it was better done by a standards 20 organization like OSHA. 21 Q. Fair, but -- and I won't even ask you 22 would you agree with me. Do you have any 23 personal knowledge whether or not Eaton actually 24 itself promulgated any of this information to 25 any of its customers? 202 1 A. I don't have any knowledge of that. 2 Q. Okay. 3 MR. PETTICORD: By that, you mean the 4 machine information? 5 MR. VONA: Yeah, yeah. 6 BY MR. VONA: 7 Q. I mean, did they ever pass that on? 8 A. I didn't have any knowledge that they 9 did pass that on to any, any of their customers. 10 Q. Okay. Next page, under asbestos and 11 friction materials, I had asked you before if 12 you knew how much asbestos was in the bake 13 linings that were sold by Eaton. This statement 14 says "most molded friction materials contain 15 about 50 percent asbestos." 16 Would you agree with that statement? 17 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. Would he 18 agree what? That the statement is made? 19 MR. VONA: No, that most friction 20 materials contain about 50 percent asbestos. 21 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. Foundation. 22 THE WITNESS: Best of my knowledge, 23 that varied over a range depending on the 24 friction materials. So yes, 50 percent could be 25 an average, but yes, it could be less than that 203 1 and maybe more. 2 BY MR. VONA: 3 Q. Do you know the range? 4 A. No, I don't. It could vary all over 5 the place depending on specific friction 6 material -- friction -- coefficient of friction. 7 MR. PETTICORD: You have to keep your 8 voice up so she can hear you, Roger. 9 MR. VONA: Okay. And then down to the 10 third paragraph. 11 MR. PETTICORD: Same page? 12 MR. VONA: Yeah, same page, Dan. 13 BY MR. VONA: 14 Q. It says "breathing excessive quantities 15 of asbestos fiber can cause respiratory disease 16 and cancer." 17 A. Uh-huh. 18 Q. Now, would you agree with me by 19 July 20th, 1979, when this document was received 20 by Eaton, that they should have been aware or 21 were aware that the breathing of asbestos fiber 22 could cause respiratory and cancer? 23 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. Go ahead. 24 THE WITNESS: I'd say that they were 25 aware that there were documents like this 204 1 stating that, yes. 2 BY MR. VONA: 3 Q. But is it Eaton's position to the 4 contrary? 5 MR. PETTICORD: What to the contrary? 6 MR. VONA: That breathing asbestos 7 fiber does not cause cancer. 8 THE WITNESS: No, not to my knowledge. 9 BY MR. VONA: 10 Q. Do you know what Eaton's position is 11 with regard to that? 12 MR. PETTICORD: As of today or as of 13 the date that it was - 14 MR. VONA: Yeah, as of today, let's 15 say. 16 MR. PETTICORD: Don't answer that. 17 THE WITNESS: No. 18 MR. VONA: Why not? 19 MR. PETTICORD: Because it's not 20 relevant. 21 BY MR. VONA: 22 Q. What about in 19 - 23 MR. PETTICORD: You can ask him, you 24 can ask him in 1979. 25 BY MR. VONA: 205 1 Q. 1979 what did they believe, if you 2 know? 3 A. I guess I -- my exposure as a 4 supervisor and a manager at that point in time, 5 I guess it was common sense that you didn't go 6 around breathing asbestos because there were a 7 lot of the alarms going on that -- including the 8 OSHA regulations that basically said you 9 shouldn't do that. 10 Q. Okay. Did Eaton ever pass that 11 information on to any of its customers? 12 MR. PETTICORD: Not to breathe 13 asbestos? Is that what you're asking? 14 BY MR. VONA: 15 Q. What he just said. 16 A. Specifically, I don't remember whether 17 they did or not. 18 Q. Next page. Try to speed this up. 19 We're running out of tape. "Do not use an air 20 hose for cleaning." 21 A. Right. 22 Q. And they've got a little picture there. 23 Did Eaton ever pass this information on to any 24 of its customers at any time? 25 A. In picture form, not that I'm aware of. 206 1 Q. All right. And 434 titled "use vacuum 2 or wet methods for cleaning." How about that? 3 Did Eaton ever pass that information on to any 4 of its customers at any time? 5 A. I think probably as a general practice 6 that those things were talked about in brake 7 training. 8 Q. Okay. We're going to go off the record 9 for a minute and let him change the tape. I'm 10 almost done. 11 MR. PETTICORD: You're not going to 12 make it through, are you? 13 MR. VONA: No. And I have like two 14 more documents to finish after this. 15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Counsel agree? 16 MR. PETTICORD: Yeah. 17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the 18 record at 2:19 p.m. Please stand by. 19 (Whereupon, a recess was then taken at 20 2:19 p.m.) 21 (Whereupon, Hobbie Exhibit 32, a letter 22 from Bruce L. Webb, was then received and marked 23 for identification.) 24 (Whereupon, Hobbie Exhibit 33, an 25 interoffice correspondence, July 1980, subject 207 1 matter, asbestos brake lining, was then received 2 and marked for identification.) 3 (Whereupon, the proceedings resumed at 4 2:25 p.m.) 5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Please stand by. 6 This is beginning of tape number four. This is 7 the beginning of tape number four in the 8 deposition of Mr. Roger Hobbie. We are back on 9 the record at 2:25 p.m. Please proceed. 10 BY MR. VONA: 11 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Hobbie. We're 12 getting there. I promise you. If we -- we were 13 just discussing this FMSI document received by 14 Eaton in July of 1979. If you could turn to 435 15 Bates number, and under handling new friction 16 materials, that first paragraph, the second full 17 sentence there where it says "if the parts." 18 MR. PETTICORD: Let -- go ahead and 19 read it. 20 MR. VONA: I was going to let him read 21 it. 22 MR. PETTICORD: He was reading it while 23 you were asking. 24 THE WITNESS: Okay. 25 BY MR. VONA: 208 1 Q. Okay. And this statement, "if the 2 parts are purchased in bulk quantities, abrasion 3 during shipment may result in the accumulation 4 of dust in shipping containers." 5 First of all, do you agree with that 6 statement? 7 A. Sure. That could be rubbing -8 Q. So would that be the release of 9 asbestos-containing dust? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. All right. 12 MR. PETTICORD: Keep your voice up. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 MR. PETTICORD: Thank you. 15 BY MR. VONA: 16 Q. Next page, sir. Okay. And that says 17 "do not sweep in work area, use vacuum method." 18 Okay. I forgot to ask you this before, 19 but in your own personal experience, have you 20 ever observed a brake mechanic sweep up a shop? 21 A. Sure. 22 Q. Okay. And would this go back to the 23 time you were a young man? 24 A. Sure. 25 Q. Okay. So way prior to 1980, right? 209 1 A. Uh-huh. 2 Q. Would it be fair to say, though, by 3 1979, that Eaton should have been aware or was 4 aware that some mechanics would sweep up their 5 work areas? 6 A. Yes, I'd say so, sure. 7 Q. All right. If not earlier? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. The next page "other methods of 10 minimizing dust exposure." 11 Do you see that? 12 A. Yes. 13 MR. PETTICORD: We're on 437. 14 MR. VONA: Yes. 15 BY MR. VONA: 16 Q. Then it states under there "whenever 17 possible, machining and repair operations should 18 be isolated from other work areas in a 19 restricted area to prevent unnecessary exposure 20 of other workers." 21 Now, would you agree with that 22 statement? 23 A. Yeah, it would be general good practice 24 to do that. 25 Q. To avoid exposing other workers to 210 1 asbestos? 2 A. To any dust. 3 Q. Okay. In -- well -- and would it be 4 fair -- strike that. 5 Would you agree with me that by 1979, 6 that Eaton was aware or should have been aware 7 that brake repair could cause exposure to other 8 workers working in the area? And I mean by 9 exposure, exposure to asbestos. 10 A. If practices were being used that 11 dispersed this dust over, over a wide area, work 12 area, then sure, you know, I guess -- if we 13 were, if we were putting on a training class in 14 a shop and saw them doing that, we would 15 recommend them not doing that obviously, but 16 again, we weren't there to implement work rules 17 in somebody else's shop either. 18 Q. So this is something they were trying 19 to prevent? 20 MR. PETTICORD: Who was trying to 21 prevent? 22 THE WITNESS: Sure. 23 BY MR. VONA: 24 Q. FMSI. 25 A. Right. Yeah. This was a document that 211 1 tried to convey that over a wider area. 2 Q. Do you know if Eaton ever passed this 3 type of information on to any of its end 4 customers? 5 A. I don't -- I'm not aware of this 6 specifically, no. 7 Q. Okay. I'm done with this document. I 8 want to show you what's been marked as Hobbie 9 32. 10 MR. PETTICORD: I'll object to this 11 document. 12 MR. VONA: On what basis? 13 MR. PETTICORD: Because it's not 14 relevant to the case. It has to do with 15 manufacturing facilities. 16 MR. VONA: But it discusses asbestos. 17 MR. PETTICORD: That's my objection. 18 MR. VONA: That's fine. 19 BY MR. VONA: 20 Q. Let me know when you're all set there. 21 Just so you know, I'm only concerned with the 22 first page. 23 A. Okay. 24 MR. PETTICORD: He's probably only 25 concerned with eighth sentence starting on the 212 1 eighth line of the second full paragraph. 2 MR. VONA: Do you want me to ask my 3 questions? 4 MR. PETTICORD: Sure. 5 BY MR. VONA: 6 Q. First of all, and I know Dan 7 stipulated, but it's fair to state that this is 8 a document that was provided by you, correct? 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10 MR. PETTICORD: It was -- this was a 11 document from our document collection. 12 BY MR. VONA: 13 Q. And who's this, who's this letter from? 14 A. Bruce L. Webb, manager of employees - 15 MR. PETTICORD: Listen to his question. 16 THE WITNESS: It's from the United 17 Steel Workers of America. 18 BY MR. VONA: 19 Q. Did that organization have any 20 relationship with Eaton? 21 A. Yeah, they were a -- one of the plants 22 had them as their union representation, I 23 believe. 24 Q. So they were union for some of the 25 Eaton employees? 213 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And this is dated July 25th, 1979, 3 correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And you started to allude to it that 6 it's addressed to - 7 A. Bruce Webb, manager of employee 8 relations at the brake division plant in 9 Gallatin, Tennessee. 10 Q. Do you, do you have any personal 11 knowledge regarding this document? 12 A. No, I don't. I may have seen it 13 before, but I basically may have read it or 14 reviewed it, but at the time I didn't have any. 15 Q. All right. That's fair. The sentence 16 I'm concerned with obviously, as Dan was 17 pointing out, starts with "as you know." 18 "As you know, there is no safe level 19 for a carcinogen, although the lower the level, 20 the lower the risk." 21 Okay. And with that statement, I'd 22 like to ask you, would it be fair to state by 23 July 25th, 1979, that Eaton was aware or should 24 have been aware that there's no safe level for 25 exposure to asbestos as a carcinogen? 214 1 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. You can 2 give him the same answer again if you choose. 3 MR. VONA: Or a different one if you 4 choose. 5 MR. PETTICORD: Or a different one if 6 you choose. That's a fair qualification. I 7 won't take that - 8 THE WITNESS: I have to say I don't 9 really know. 10 BY MR. VONA: 11 Q. Okay. Well, the document speaks for 12 itself, does it not? 13 A. Yes. It's a statement. It's just like 14 talking about global warming. 15 Q. Fair enough. Number 33 -- Hobbie 33. 16 MR. PETTICORD: July 28th, this one. 17 MR. VONA: You got it. 18 BY MR. VONA: 19 Q. Okay. Now, we are getting there. I 20 keep saying that. I know. The first page of 21 this document, interoffice correspondence, 22 July 1980, correct? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. Subject matter, asbestos brake lining? 25 A. Right. 215 1 Q. And in -- it starts off, it says 2 "attached is a bulletin from OSHA and NIOSH 3 which spells out the problems that stem from 4 asbestos fibers in a working environment." 5 Correct? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. Now, the attached bulletin -- strike 8 that. 9 Turn to the next page. And actually, I 10 want to go to 568. All right. Do you recognize 11 this document at all? 12 A. I've probably seen it, yes. I've seen 13 it before. 14 MR. PETTICORD: By this document, at 15 this point we're talking about only 8568, right? 16 MR. VONA: Well, and the accompanying 17 pages that go with it. 18 MR. PETTICORD: The whole package. 19 MR. VONA: Yes. 20 MR. PETTICORD: I got it, I got it. 21 I'm sorry. 22 MR. VONA: That's all right. 23 BY MR. VONA: 24 Q. Do you know what this document 25 discusses, sir? 216 1 A. I think it was basically announcing 2 OSHA's bulletin on dealing with asbestos in the 3 workplace -4 Q. Okay. 5 A. -- and their recommendations. 6 Q. All right. And this is dated when? 7 A. April 17th, 1980. 8 Q. Okay. And this probably will help out. 9 It says "remarks by NIOSH director, Anthony 10 Robbins on the need for a new asbestos 11 standard." 12 So they're discussing a new - 13 potentially a new asbestos standard in 1980, 14 correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And would you agree with me this is a 17 document that Eaton had in its possession? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Do you know when Eaton would have 20 obtained -- do you know when Eaton would have 21 obtained this? 22 A. The document? 23 MR. PETTICORD: By that, by that, we're 24 talking about the NIOSH press release, correct? 25 MR. VONA: Yup. 217 1 THE WITNESS: Well, the only thing I 2 know is the cover letter that was received by 3 Jim Pruneski on July 25th, it looks like 1958. 4 MR. PETTICORD: What? 5 THE WITNESS: No. Excuse me. 6 MR. PETTICORD: 1958? 7 THE WITNESS: That's not correct. 8 Strike that. 9 BY MR. VONA: 10 Q. Are you talking about the first page of 11 the exhibit? 12 A. Yeah, the -13 Q. July 28th, 1980. 14 A. Is it '80? 15 MR. PETTICORD: Are you having trouble 16 seeing? 17 THE WITNESS: Yeah, my copy is - 18 MR. PETTICORD: No, no. Stop for a 19 second. 20 THE WITNESS: No, no. It's all 21 blurred. It's just a bad copy. 22 MR. PETTICORD: I apologize. He's 23 talking about this cover page, not -- he's 24 talking about 8565. That's July 28th, 1980. 25 You're looking at 218 1 BY MR. VONA: 2 Q. We'll get to the other in a minute. 3 A. Okay. That's fine. 4 Q. Would you agree with me then that Eaton 5 had this document in its possession July 28th, 6 1980? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. All right. Do you know who Richard 9 Lemen is? 10 A. No, I don't. 11 Q. Okay. And on the first page -- let me 12 know - 13 MR. PETTICORD: Back to 8568? 14 MR. VONA: Yup, 8568, back on there. 15 BY MR. VONA: 16 Q. If we could go down to the second full 17 paragraph where it says "we are here to announce 18 the findings of a joint NIOSH/OSHA work group 19 that has reviewed recent scientific information 20 about the health effects of asbestos. The group 21 reconfirmed that there's no safe exposure limit 22 for asbestos, and all commercial and several 23 non-commercial forms of asbestos cause disease." 24 Would you agree with those statements, 25 sir, as of 1980? 219 1 MR. PETTICORD: That they are true as 2 of 1980? 3 MR. VONA: Yeah. 4 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. Go ahead. 5 THE WITNESS: I'd agree if that's what 6 OSHA said. I have no -- other than what they 7 said, I don't know any of the data that used to 8 come to that conclusion. 9 BY MR. VONA: 10 Q. Sure. Well, would it be fair to say 11 that when Eaton received this document in July 12 of 1980, at least that they should have been 13 aware that OSHA and NIOSH were discussing the 14 fact that, in their opinion, there was no safe 15 exposure level -- or exposure limit for 16 asbestos? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And also, that all forms of asbestos 19 could cause disease? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay. And next page, we're looking 22 at -- this should be 569, and second paragraph 23 from the bottom. Let me know when you're there, 24 and I'm going to read it. 25 A. I'm there. 220 1 MR. PETTICORD: The last full 2 paragraph? 3 BY MR. VONA: 4 Q. Yes. And I'll probably screw this up a 5 little. This is a bad word for me. "Asbestos 6 is ubiquitous, and its effects measured in 7 disease and death are staggering. Asbestos 8 causes a very serious form of lung fibrosis 9 known as asbestos." 10 MR. PETTICORD: Asbestosis. 11 MR. VONA: Asbestosis. Thank you, Dan. 12 I told you I'd screw it up. 13 BY MR. VONA: 14 Q. Would you agree with me then by July of 15 1980, that Eaton should have been aware or was 16 aware that OSHA and NIOSH were discussing the 17 relationship between asbestos exposure and 18 asbestosis? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. All right. And then the next sentence, 21 "it also causes lung cancer and mesothelioma, a 22 cancer of the membrane that lines the chest and 23 abdominal cavities." 24 And the same question, and I have to 25 get it out, so bear with me. Would you agree 221 1 with me by 1980, that Eaton was aware or should 2 have been aware that OSHA and NIOSH were 3 discussing the potential link between asbestos 4 exposure and lung cancer and mesothelioma? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Okay. And in fact, would you agree 7 with me that they actually describe what 8 mesothelioma is? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And then on the next page -- actually, 11 you can skip that. All right. Flip it all the 12 way back to the front, and we'll try and stay 13 organized. If you could, turn to the second 14 page. Okay. And I'll ask you if you're 15 familiar with this document at all. 16 A. Yes, I've seen it before. 17 Q. Okay. Good. And who's this document 18 from? 19 A. It's from John J. Brown, account 20 manager, original equipment sales, I assume, for 21 Abex. 22 Q. Why do you assume that? 23 A. Well, it's on Abex letterhead. 24 Q. Okay. Fair enough. And who's it to? 25 A. Jim Pruneski, Eaton Corporation, brake 222 1 division. 2 Q. When's it dated? 3 A. May 16th, 1980. 4 Q. All right So -- and it says "dear 5 Jim" -- it's very short -- "attached is an 6 article from the Friction Material Institute, 7 FMSI, regarding asbestos fiber in the working 8 place. Thought this might be of interest to 9 you." 10 And if you could turn to the next page, 11 would you, would you agree with me that this is 12 the document that that letter refers to? 13 A. Yes. 14 MR. PETTICORD: 8567? 15 MR. VONA: Yes, sir. 16 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. Go ahead. 17 MR. VONA: All right. 18 THE WITNESS: It appears to be, yes. 19 BY MR. VONA: 20 Q. Okay. And this is -- at the top it 21 says, Friction Material Standard Institute, 22 correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And it's dated April 23, 1980? 25 A. Yes. 223 1 Q. And the title is NIOSH/OSHA 2 Recommendations Concerning Workplace Exposure to 3 Asbestos. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And the first paragraph, it says "in a 6 press conference held April 17th, 1980, some 7 expected recommendations were announced to the 8 media by a joint working group on individuals 9 from NIOSH and OSHA." 10 They're referring to the document we 11 just looked at, correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Okay. And scan down to the fourth 14 paragraph where it says "among the items 15 stated." 16 A. Okay. 17 Q. "Among the items stated in this press 18 release of importance are there's no safe 19 exposure level limit for asbestos. All 20 commercial and several non-commercial forms of 21 asbestos cause disease." 22 So would it be fair to state that in 23 1980, Eaton received -- strike that. 24 Would it be fair to say that in April 25 of 1980, Eaton received a second time 224 1 information discussing the fact that there's no 2 safe exposure level for asbestos? 3 MR. PETTICORD: No. Objection. I 4 think we can -- we'll stipulate to the April of 5 1980 Eaton received -- these two documents, 6 whether they came at the same time or at 7 different times, given the way this is all put 8 together, I don't know. 9 BY MR. VONA: 10 Q. Well, the first cover letter attaching 11 the form we discussed, the actual report, is 12 from July of 1980, is it not? 13 MR. PETTICORD: There's a letter - 14 MR. VONA: Just let me ask him that, 15 Dan. I mean, it's two different occasions. 16 MR. PETTICORD: No, it's not. One is 17 an -- and that's -- one is the interoffice 18 correspondence, July 28th, 1980, and one is a 19 document from someone at Abex to Pruneski. 20 BY MR. VONA: 21 Q. Would it be fair to say that, that 22 Eaton received information in 1980 regarding no 23 safe level of exposures to asbestos and that all 24 forms of asbestos caused disease in two 25 different documents? 225 1 A. Yes. 2 MR. PETTICORD: That's fair. 3 MR. VONA: That's fair. I'm all set 4 with that one. 5 (Whereupon, Hobbie Exhibit 34, a 6 document concerning a training program regarding 7 asbestos, was then received and marked for 8 identification.) 9 MR. PETTICORD: I'm very hopeful that 10 your questions are going to be very small about 11 this because - 12 BY MR. VONA: 13 Q. Let me show you what's been marked as 14 34 -- Hobbie 34. And actually, I'd asked you 15 earlier, and you said to the best of your 16 knowledge, there was no program prior to '86. 17 Does this help you out with that? 18 MR. PETTICORD: Whoa, whoa, whoa. 19 MR. VONA: Well, let me - 20 MR. PETTICORD: What program? That's 21 all I'm asking. 22 BY MR. VONA: 23 Q. Okay. Training program regarding 24 asbestos. 25 A. Yeah. This is, this is a plant program 226 1 which I wouldn't have been directly related to 2 in my, in my job. 3 Q. And that's perfectly acceptable, but 4 in -- and I'm not accusing you of lying in any 5 way. 6 A. No, no. 7 Q. If you don't know, you don't know, but 8 I'm just trying to -- would it be fair to say 9 that Eaton had a training program concerning 10 asbestos in 1983? 11 A. Looks like it, yes. 12 Q. Okay. And under -- on the cover page 13 there on 644, as part of the outline under Roman 14 numeral four, health effects, it says "potential 15 health consequences from asbestosis, lung cancer 16 and mesothelioma." 17 Would it be fair to say that on 18 December 10th, 1983, that Eaton is making a 19 recognition that there's potential health 20 consequences regarding those diseases? 21 A. I would say yes, and it looks like they 22 were regurgitating the information that was 23 presented to them from the authorities. 24 Q. But you'd agree with me that it's 25 actually different in that it's not something 227 1 that Eaton received, it's something that Eaton 2 is saying, correct? 3 A. Yes. Well -4 Q. It's on their program. 5 MR. PETTICORD: No, it's not. 6 MR. VONA: Well - 7 MR. PETTICORD: This is not an Eaton 8 document. 9 MR. VONA: It's not? 10 MR. PETTICORD: No. Look at the 11 bottom. Look in the corner. See the little, 12 the little beaker? 13 BY MR. VONA: 14 Q. Okay. Do you know who Resource 15 Consultants are? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Okay. You have no idea who they'd be? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Okay. But again, at the top of the 20 document , what 's the title of it? 21 A. It's for Training Program Outline, 22 Eaton Corporation, Gallatin, Tennessee. 23 Q. Did Eaton regularly conduct training 24 programs for their employees? 25 A. Yes, I'd say so. 228 1 Q. As such, would this type of document be 2 something that would be passed out to employees? 3 A. Probably. 4 Q. Okay. Would Eaton pass out anything 5 that they didn't approve to their employees? 6 A. I'd say no. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. Not deliberately. 9 MR. PETTICORD: That would be the Fifth 10 Amendment question right there. 11 BY MR. VONA: 12 Q. If you could, let's go through this on 13 650, it's the second to last page. 14 MR. VONA: Is that what you're 15 referring to, Dan? 16 MR. PETTICORD: I just -- I'm not 17 trying to be funny, but we're not going to go 18 through the CFR in any great detail. 19 MR. VONA: I don't know what that is. 20 MR. PETTICORD: This attachment. 21 MR. VONA: No, no, no. 22 MR. PETTICORD: That's what I was 23 talking about. 24 MR. VONA: The OSHA stuff. No, I'm not 25 going to go through that. 229 1 BY MR. VONA: 2 Q. Are you there on 650? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And what is -- it says "item three, 5 table ten." What's the title of that table? 6 A. Estimated Asbestos-Related Cancer 7 Mortality from a One-Year Exposure to Various 8 Fiber Concentrations. 9 Q. Okay. And right below that, it says 10 "Cancer Mortality Slash One Hundred Thousand 11 Exposed." And it lists some types of cancer. 12 Do you see that? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay. And with regard to -- I want to 15 ask you about mesothelioma. Under the chart age 16 at first exposure, twenty, can you tell me the 17 estimated number of mesotheliomas that it 18 states - 19 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. 20 MR. VONA: -- from .1 fiber cc. 21 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. You're 22 asking him to regurgitate what's reported on 23 this table? Is that your question? 24 MR. VONA: Yes. 25 MR. PETTICORD: He can read what's on 230 1 the table. 2 THE WITNESS: 9.5. 3 BY MR. VONA: 4 Q. Okay. And same question for 2.0 fibers 5 per cc. 6 A. 188.7. 7 Q. Okay. 188.7 mesotheliomas per one 8 hundred thousand? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. And do you have any reason to 11 believe that this document was not passed out to 12 Eaton employees? 13 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. Go ahead. 14 THE WITNESS: Do you know what -- I 15 don't know. 16 BY MR. VONA: 17 Q. All right. Would you agree with me 18 that in 1983, that Eaton had in its possession 19 this document outlining these numbers? 20 MR. PETTICORD: Which document are you 21 referring to? 22 MR. VONA: The same chart. 23 MR. PETTICORD: Table ten? 24 MR. VONA: Yeah. 25 MR. PETTICORD: Okay. 231 1 THE WITNESS: It appears that they did. 2 BY MR. VONA: 3 Q. And same questions -- and I won't get 4 into details on it -- but for table eleven, the 5 next page. 6 MR. PETTICORD: EAB 018651? 7 MR. VONA: 651, yes, sir. 8 BY MR. VONA: 9 Q. Would you agree with me that Eaton had 10 these numbers in its possession; correct, this 11 table? 12 A. It appears they did. 13 Q. Good. 14 MR. VONA: All right. 15 MR. PETTICORD: I think we're done with 16 that. 17 MR. VONA: Yeah, I think we're all set 18 with that. Let me just check my outline. Okay. 19 BY MR. VONA: 20 Q. Sir, would you agree with me based on 21 your prior testimony, that Eaton never provided 22 any warnings with its brakes concerning the 23 potential health hazards of asbestos? 24 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. Go ahead 25 and answer that. 232 1 THE WITNESS: I'd say yes, I don't 2 believe they ever did specifically. 3 BY MR. VONA: 4 Q. Okay. Thank you. Did there come a 5 time when Eaton became aware of the hazards of 6 asbestos to your knowledge? 7 A. Yes. I'd say over this period of time 8 when different research was presented to them 9 and, and as the whole industry was -10 Q. Okay. 11 A. -- became aware about it. 12 Q. You say the whole industry. Are you 13 referring to the friction industry? 14 A. I'd say the friction industry, the 15 trucking industry, the truck components 16 manufacturing industry. 17 Q. Can you put any kind of time frame on 18 that for me? I mean, I know you probably 19 couldn't give me a specific year, but - 20 A. I'd say mid '70s to mid '80s. It was 21 probably a growing issue through that point in 22 time. 23 Q. Okay. So as early as the mid '70s 24 potential health hazards of asbestos would have 25 been aware? 233 1 A. Sure, an awareness -2 Q. That was a bad question. 3 A. A low level of awareness probably. 4 Q. Let me, let me try to fix that. Would 5 you, would you agree with me then that, that 6 Eaton, as a member of the industry, would have 7 been aware of the potential health hazards of 8 asbestos sometime in the mid '70s? 9 MR. BURCH: Objection. 10 THE WITNESS: I'd say at a low level, 11 yes, as a developing issue. 12 BY MR. VONA: 13 Q. Do you know what it actually, what it 14 actually learned? 15 MR. PETTICORD: In the '70s? 16 MR. VONA: Yeah. 17 BY MR. VONA: 18 Q. Other than what you told me about OSHA. 19 A. I don't know. I do not know that they 20 learned anything specifically other than what 21 printed material of these research programs were 22 presented at that -- starting at that time. 23 Q. Okay. Do you have any personal 24 knowledge why Eaton never included warnings with 25 its asbestos-containing brake materials? 234 1 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. That's not 2 what he testified to. Go ahead and answer. 3 THE WITNESS: As to why? 4 BY MR. VONA: 5 Q. Yeah. 6 A. I guess -- I don't know. It probably 7 wasn't something that really was relevant at the 8 time. 9 Q. What's - 10 A. It wasn't considered relevant 11 necessarily. 12 Q. To who? 13 A. To, to anyone. As far as putting - 14 there weren't any, any systems in place to put, 15 oh, material warnings and what have you on 16 different things like that. 17 Q. You mean actually put a warning on the 18 brake itself? Is that what you're talking 19 about? 20 A. Yeah, or warnings on anything relating 21 to that, because it wasn't -- necessarily wasn't 22 proven to the industry, I guess. 23 Q. Okay. But would you agree with me you 24 just stated that in the mid '70s at least the 25 industry was somewhat aware of that? 235 1 A. Starting to become aware of, yes. 2 Q. Well, would it have been possible for 3 Eaton to put that into a printed format and 4 distribute it to their customers in the mid 5 1970s? 6 A. It would have been possible, but I 7 guess there may have been objection at the truck 8 manufacturers if something arrived with a label 9 on that -- on to the assembly floor as to now 10 okay, now what do we do with it. 11 Q. Sir, do you know if any of the brake 12 linings that Eaton purchased ever came with 13 warnings? 14 A. Not that I'm aware of. 15 Q. Okay. Let me go back to the 1986 16 training program document. 17 MR. PETTICORD: The research 18 consultant? 19 MR. VONA: I don't have my -- yeah, the 20 86 one, not the one that we just went through. 21 MR. LEONHARDT: That's 28. 22 MR. PETTICORD: It's right in front of 23 me. This one. 24 BY MR. VONA: 25 Q. It's pretty -- 236 1 A. I set it aside because you were coming 2 back to it. 3 Q. We set it too far aside. All right. 4 Just going back to -- I'm sorry, what number is 5 that? 6 A. 28. 7 Q. Hobbie 28. If you could go to 702 8 Bates number. It's towards the end. 9 A. Got it. 10 Q. Okay. And under the heading 11 asbestos-containing materials used in 12 manufacture -- do you see that? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. It says "certain types of brake linings 15 used in this facility to manufacture brake shoes 16 contained asbestos. The containers in which 17 these brake linings are received from suppliers 18 have asbestos warning labels affixed." 19 Does that help you out at all with 20 regard to whether or not any of these - 21 A. They must have, yes. 22 Q. Okay. So you have no reason to 23 disagree with that statement? 24 A. No, I wouldn't disagree with it. 25 Q. So at least you'd agree with me by 1986 237 1 suppliers were sending brake linings that had 2 asbestos warnings on it? 3 A. It looks like it, yes. 4 Q. Do you have any reason -- strike that. 5 Do you know if they were on any earlier 6 than that? 7 A. I don't know. 8 MR. VONA: Okay. Of course I do. 9 (Whereupon, Hobbie Exhibit 35, a 10 portion of the answers to interrogatories 11 propounded by defendant Abex in this case for 12 Eighth Judicial District Asbestos Litigation, 13 was then received and marked for 14 identification.) 15 BY MR. VONA: 16 Q. Let me show you -- what was it? 35? 17 A. 35. 18 Q. Hobbie 35. And I'm going to go ahead 19 and say that you probably aren't familiar with 20 this document, but I'll ask you. Are you? 21 MR. PETTICORD: Okay. I'll object to 22 that insofar as it's a piece of a larger 23 document filed in this case, but with that 24 understanding, go ahead and -- go ahead. 25 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I don't think I've 238 1 seen it before. 2 BY MR. VONA: 3 Q. Okay. And I'll represent to you that 4 this is a portion of the answers to 5 interrogatories propounded by defendant Abex in 6 this case for Eighth Judicial District Asbestos 7 Litigation, okay, where this case is filed. All 8 right. 9 And if you could just turn -- and these 10 were received in the county clerk's office 11 May 15th, 2007. If you could just turn to the 12 next page and the first full paragraph, "subject 13 to." It says "and subject to and without 14 waiving these objections and insofar as Abex 15 understands this interrogatory, in the mid 1970s 16 and perhaps earlier, Abex commenced the 17 placement of warning labels on its 18 asbestos-containing automotive friction 19 products. This label reads as follows: And 20 then you have caution, contains asbestos fibers, 21 avoid creating dust, creating asbestos dust may 22 cause serious bodily harm. Abex does not 23 believe the wording of this warning was ever 24 changed, and to the best of current and 25 reasonably available information and belief, the 239 1 warning labels were affixed to automotive 2 friction packages. 3 MR. PETTICORD: Product packages. And 4 I will object again because we don't have the 5 interrogatory and based on it's a partial 6 answer. Go ahead. 7 BY MR. VONA: 8 Q. I know. Well, with that being said, 9 first of all, Abex was a major supplier of 10 asbestos-containing linings to Eaton between 11 1980 and 1990, correct? 12 MR. BURCH: Objection. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 BY MR. VONA: 15 Q. And do you have any reason to dispute 16 what Abex is claiming here in their answers to 17 interrogatories? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Looking at this, does this refresh your 20 recollection at all -- did you ever see any 21 warnings like this from Abex while you were at 22 Eaton? 23 A. No, I can't say that I have. And what 24 I'm assuming here is that this warning was 25 probably on the package as the linings were 240 1 shipped in the factory, into the plant for 2 assembly. That's what I'm assuming. 3 So I wouldn't have necessarily had the 4 opportunity to see that as such because my 5 exposure to the linings would be after they were 6 put on the shoes -7 Q. And they're - 8 A. -- and assembly. 9 Q. Sort of in a finished state? 10 A. Yeah, right. 11 Q. How did the linings come to the Eaton 12 facilities from their -- from the distributors? 13 MR. PETTICORD: At what time? 14 MR. VONA: Between 1980 and 1990. 15 THE WITNESS: You know, I guess I can 16 just answer that from the recollection I have, 17 that they probably were in boxes on pallets. 18 MR. VONA: Okay. Let me - 19 (Whereupon, Hobbie Exhibit 36, a 20 portion of a deposition of Ronald Creamer, was 21 then received and marked for identification.) 22 BY MR. VONA: 23 Q. Showing you what's been marked as 24 Hobbie Number 36, and I'll represent to you that 25 this is a portion of a deposition that was taken 241 1 in the same case that you testified in by a 2 different corporate representative. Okay. And 3 his name is Ronald Creamer. Do you know 4 Mr. Creamer at all? 5 A. No. 6 Q. All right. Fair enough. And - 7 MR. PETTICORD: I -- we have the same 8 foundational objections to this document as we 9 did before. 10 MR. VONA: That's fine. 11 BY MR. VONA: 12 Q. I just want to read a portion of his 13 testimony, if I may. And it would start on this 14 page forty-three, line twenty-two. Let me know 15 when you're there. 16 A. Got it. 17 Q. "Research has indicated that since 18 1977, answering defendant has included in its 19 containers of asbestos-containing brake lining a 20 statement which has the same or substantially 21 the same form and wording as that attached as 22 Exhibit 5 entitled recommended procedures for 23 reducing asbestos dust during brake servicing." 24 Okay. Did I read that correctly? 25 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. Go ahead. 242 1 BY MR. VONA: 2 Q. That's correct. Okay. "My question is 3 what research are you referring to to come to 4 the conclusion that it was used in 1977 in every 5 container, because I was there at that point in 6 time, and I recall us putting them in the 7 boxes." 8 Now, before I go any further, I'll 9 represent to you that Mr. Creamer is a corporate 10 representative for Carlisle. Give you some 11 context. 12 MR. PETTICORD: If you want to ask him 13 if he ever saw Exhibit 5 or if he recalls 14 Exhibit 5, then go ahead and ask him that, and 15 I'm not sure reading Creamer's depo does much 16 for this witness's knowledge. 17 BY MR. VONA: 18 Q. No, but I wanted to establish 19 Exhibit 5, and this was Exhibit 5 to the 20 deposition, and I'll let you take a look at it. 21 It was the last page. Why don't you take a look 22 at yours. Sorry. 23 A. It's the last page on this. 24 MR. PETTICORD: It is. 25 BY MR. VONA: 243 1 Q. There you go. 2 A. This was in the boxes of brake linings. 3 MR. PETTICORD: Well, objection. 4 That's my point is you can't -- and I will 5 instruct you that you should not take knowledge 6 counsel just read into the record from a 7 deposition taken in a different case -- let me 8 finish my point -- as, as a replacement for your 9 personal knowledge. 10 THE WITNESS: I have no personal 11 knowledge of this ever being in boxes of brake 12 lining when they arrived at the plant. 13 BY MR. VONA: 14 Q. Okay. I didn't ask that question, but 15 I'll get there, I suppose. You've never seen 16 this document before? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Okay. And you just told me that you've 19 never -- well, you've never seen this document 20 provided by Carlisle in brake linings that they 21 supplied to Eaton? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. Okay. And I won't read the testimony, 24 but the gist of it is they say that this was 25 supplied in 1977. Do you have any reason to 244 1 dispute the testimony in this case; that this, 2 this warning was supplied with Carlisle 3 asbestos-containing brakes? 4 A. No, I don't because I don't have any 5 direct personal knowledge of what they're 6 saying. It could have been there, and I just 7 was never exposed to it, so -8 Q. So you're saying it could have been 9 there? 10 A. It could have been. 11 Q. Okay. And I'll pose a hypothetical to 12 you. Supposing it was there. Do you know if 13 Eaton ever passed it on? 14 A. I never saw it passed on. 15 Q. Okay. And was Carlisle also a major 16 supplier of brake linings -- asbestos brake 17 linings to Eaton? 18 A. Yes, yes, they were. 19 Q. And Mr. Hobbie, would you, would you 20 agree with me that if warnings on the dangers of 21 asbestos were placed on brake linings that were 22 purchased by Eaton for use in their products, it 23 would be reasonable to expect Eaton to pass 24 those warnings on to its customers? 25 MR. PETTICORD: Objection. Go ahead. 245 1 THE WITNESS: I guess it would be a 2 reasonable idea. 3 MR. VONA: Okay. All right. And I 4 think I'm done. I'm not going into the last 5 one. I thank you for your time today. I don't 6 know if Dan has got anything. 7 MR. PETTICORD: You guys need anything 8 or want anything? 9 MR. BURCH: No, I have no questions. 10 MR. PETTICORD: Anybody on the phone? 11 MR. VONA: Anybody on the phone have 12 questions? 13 TELEPHONIC COUNSEL: I have no 14 questions. 15 MR. VONA: Going once, going twice - 16 MR. PETTICORD: Three times a lady. 17 All right, guys. I think we're done. 18 MR. BRIDGE: Chris Bridge. No 19 questions, but I would like to just note, and I 20 know it may have been noted before, but I would 21 ask that we make arrangements to have copies of 22 all the exhibits that were marked today provided 23 as well as the discovery responses that Eaton 24 provided. 25 MR. PETTICORD: Sure. You should have 246 1 the discovery responses, I thought, but if you 2 don't, Chris, we can certainly get them to you. 3 I thought those were sent out, but they could 4 be -- I'll talk to you. 5 MR. VONA: With regard to the exhibits, 6 once I get them back from the court reporter, 7 I'll scan them all to a disc and have them sent 8 to all counsel. 9 MR. BRIDGE: Fair enough. Thank you. 10 MR. VONA: Mr. Hobbie, thank you for 11 your patience with me. 12 MR. PETTICORD: We'll read, and we're 13 waiving time limits for reading, correct? 14 MR. VONA: That's fine. If there's any 15 problems with it, point it out to me. 16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: All counsel through? 17 MR. PETTICORD: We're done. 18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the 19 deposition - 20 MR. PETTICORD: We are getting off the 21 phone, guys. 22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the 23 deposition of Mr. Roger Hobbie. We are off the 24 record at 3:04 p.m. Please stand by. 25 (Whereupon, the deposition concluded at 247 1 3:04 p.m.) 2 ***** 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 248 1 I hereby CERTIFY that I have read 2 the foregoing pages, and with the exception of 3 the changes on the errata sheet, that they are a 4 true and accurate transcript of the testimony 5 given by me in the above-entitled action on 6 September 8, 2008. 7 8 9 ROGER HOBBIE 10 11 Sworn to before me this 12 day of , 2008. 13 14 15 16 Notary Public 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 249 1 STATE OF NEW YORK) 2 SS: 3 COUNTY OF ERIE) 4 5 I, VICTORIA ROHL, a Notary Public 6 in and for the State of New York, County of 7 Erie, DO HEREBY CERTIFY, that the Examination 8 Before Trial of ROGER HOBBIE, was taken down by 9 me in a verbatim manner by means of Machine 10 Shorthand on September 8, 2008, that the 11 proceedings were taken to be used in the 12 above-entitled action. 13 I further CERTIFY that the 14 above-described transcript constitutes a true, 15 accurate and complete transcript of the 16 testimony. 17 18 19 20 VICTORIA ROHL 21 Notary Public 22 23 24 25 250