Document JNGqL6j04QNE2Bpw53G97Zvw2

COPY RAi(0 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA 2 233094 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -X 19616 3 THOMAS A . DINE, JOAN C . DINE and 4 AMY E . DINE AND LAURA R . DINE, infants by and through their parents, 5 THOMAS A . DINE and JOAN C . DINE, 6 Plaintiffs, 7 VS . : Civil Action 8 WESTERN EXTERMINATING COMPANY, INC . : No . 86-1857 d/b/a WESTERN TERMITE AND PEST CONTROL, : 9 WESTERN EXTERMINATING COMPANY OF : GASCH, J . (0G) MARYLAND, INC . d/b/a/ WESTERN TERMITE 10 AND PEST CONTROL, WESTERN EXTERMINATING COMPANY, INC ., 11 d/b/a WESTERN TERMITE AND PEST CONTROL and VELSICOL CHEMICAL CORPORATION, 12 Defendants . 13 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x 14 15 I 16 Washington, D .C . December 29, 1987 17 DEPOSITION OF : 18 RAYMOND HARBISON 19 a witness called for oral examination by counsel for the 20 Defendant, 2207 Hidden Valley Drive, Little Rock, Arkansas, 21 beginning at 4 :20 p .m ., on Tuesday, December 29, 1987, before 22 SALLY V . WEEKS, Court Reporter, and LINDA JAMES, a Notary WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 2 1 Public in and for the State of Arkansas, when were present on 2 behalf of the respective parties : 3 APPEARANCE OF COUNSEL 4 On Behalf of the Plaintiffs : 5 Connerton & Bernstein BY : RONALD SIMON, ESQUIRE 6 1920 L Street, Northwest Fourth Floor 7 Washington, D .C . 20036-5004 8 On Behalf of the Defendant Western Exterminating Company, Incorporated : 9 DENNIS HART, ESQUIRE 10 Judiciary Manor 301 Eye Street, Northwest 11 Washington, D .C . 20001 12 On Behalf of the Defendant Velsicol Chemical Corporation : 13 Spriggs, Bode & Hollingsworth 14 BY : JOE G . HOLLINGSWORTA, ESQUIRE 1015 Fifteenth Street, Northwest 15 Suite 1100 Washington, D .C . 20005 16 17 Also Present : 18 Robert Douglas 19 t 20 21 22 WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 1 2 3 WITNESS 4 RAYMOND FARBISON 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 74 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 CONTENTS EXAMINATION BY MR . SIMON MR . HOLLIDiGSFTORTH 3 PAGE 4 74 WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 4 1 P ROCEE DI NGS 2 Whereupon, 3 RAYMOND HARBISON 4 was called as a witness and, having been first duly sworn by 5 Linda James, a Notary Public in and for the State of 6 Arkansas, was examined and testified a= follows : 7 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THB PLAINTIFFS 8 BY MR . SIMOTl : 9 Q . Would you state your name for the record please . 10 A . My name is Raymond Harbison . 11 Q . And your business address? 12 A . 2301 West Markham, Little Rock, Arkansas 72207 . 13 Q . By whom have you been retained in this case? 14 A . z have been retained by Mr . Hollingsworth . 15 p . On behalf of whom? 16 A . I don't know . I guess on behalf of Velsicol . 17 Q . Were you asked whether you have any opinions on any is areas with regard to this case? 19 A . I'm sorry? 20 Q . Were you asked to render any opinions with regard 21 to this case? 22 A . Yes, I was . WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 5 1 MR . HOLLIDiGSWORTH : Before we get to that, can 7 2 make a statement, please? 3 MR . SIMON : Yes . 4 MR . HOLLINGSWORTH : I will be brief . It is my 5 understanding that the witness has been contacted a number of 6 times recently by telephone by counsel for the plaintiff= and 7 the witness was not informed by counsel for the plaintiffs 8 that the attorney to whom he was speaking was indeed counsel 9 for the plaintiffs and not counsel for the defendants or not 10 a member of Spriggs, Bode & Hollingsworth . 11 The witness was even advised by this counsel for 12 the plaintiffs that if he didn't schedule his deposition at 13 such and such a date, he would be precluded from testifying 14 in this case, which I suppose is counsel for plaintiffs' 15 opinion ; but, nevertheless . 7 wanted to state that this 16 series of facts, this scenario has occurred and I object. to 17 it . I don't knew if it is unethical or not, it is certainly 18 I not traditional . 19 It is not common practice in my experience for 20 counsel from my adversary to call expert witnesses whom I 21 have named on behalf of my client in a case . Certainly I 22 have never contacted any expert witnesses officially named WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE 6 1 and identified by counsel for the other side and I suppose if Z those are the rules we are playing by in this case, I am glad 3 to know about them new finally . I don't think those are the 4 rules we should play by here and I object to counsel for 5 plaintiffs calling expert witnesses by telephone or 6 contacting them in any way regarding this case after an 7 expert has been identified by me or by my client in a 8 matter . 9 Certainly I object to counsel for the plaintiffs 10 calling my expert witnesses or my designated witnesses and 11 not identifying the fact that counsel is indeed counsel for 12 an adversary in the matter . 13 MR . SIMON : well, while we are giving speeches on 14 the record, let me just state for the record that to my 15 knowledge no one in my office called Pr . Harbieon . I never 16 spoke to Dr . Harbieon or anyone in his office, but some day 17 late last week on Christmas Eve, one of the clerks in my 18 office told me that he was called by Dr . Harbison's office . 19 I think it was his secretary . 20 The message 7 got was that i'r . Harbison would not 27 be available for the deposition we would schedule and I asked 22 the legal assistant to tell Dr . Harbison's secretary en the WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 11 phone that we needed to depose him before the end of the year 2I because there was a discovery cutoff . 3 I particularly object, and I will say this on and 4 off the record to Mr . Hollingeworth, that if there are 5 misunderstandings and I think this is a misunderstanding, we 6 didn't call Dr . Harbison, that he could mention it to me 7 without giving these long-winded speeches for the record . 8 We were called by Pr . Harbison . I don't know 9 whether anybody identified to his secretary who called our 10 office who we represented, but I want to state that we didn't 11 call his office and that 7 had no reason to think that he 12 didn't know it was our office . The merits of the case 13 weren't discussed and I just really don't understand what the 14 whole nature of this complaint really is about . 15 His secretary called . I think probably there is a 16 note around our office of her first name and we just informed 17 her that we needed the deposition this week because of the 18 i discovery cutoff, and it way a call before Christmas . 19 Obviously by Mr . Hollingsworth's indication of 20 calling the witness by his first name as we started, he 21 obviously knows the witness rather well and he obviously 22 knows that he engaged him and I believe that the witness or WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (3e1) e70-2650 8 1 whoever from his office called knew that my office wasn't 2 Mr . Hollingsworth . I think this is just one more silly 3 speech that doesn't make any sense in regard to this case . 4 Now, can we continue with the deposition or do you 5 want to give another one? 6 MR . HOLLINGSWORTH : Well, my understanding of the 7 facts are entirely at odds with what you just stated the 8 facts to be . My understanding of the facts are that a lawyer 9 from your office has called Dr . Harbison a number of times . 10 MR . SIMON : Why would a lawyer from my office 11 initiate a call to Pr . Harbison? 12 MR . HART : I think that is best answered by you . 13 BY MR . SIMON : 14 Q . Pr . Harbison, did you ever speak to a lawyer from 15 I my office? 16 A . I spoke to a Mr ., I believe his name was 0'P!eill . 17 ', Q . Did he call you or did you call him? 18 A . He called me . 19 Q . What did he call you about? 20 A . The deposition . 21 Q . What did he call you to do? 22 A . To schedule it . WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 9 1 Q . When was that? 2 A . I believe it was last week . 3 Q . Was that the first call, or was he calling back in 4 response to another call? 5 A . I believe that was probably the second call or the 6 third call . 7 Q . Who made the first call? 8 A . The person from. your office . 9 Q . There wasn't a call initiated from your office 10 Dr . Harbison? 11 A . How would I possibly know where to call? I mean, I 12 wouldn't know where to call . 13 I Q . I don't know, sir . 14 A . I don't believe any call was initiated from this 15 office . 16 Q . Well, I believe it was . 17 MR . HOLLINGSWORTH : Well, we don't believe that it 18 was . 19 MR . SIMON : What do you want to do? Shall we 20 continue with the deposition new? 21 MR . HOLLINGSWORTH : Yes . 221 BY MR . SIMON : WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 10 1 Q . Will you state your name for the record again? 2 A . My name is Raymond Harbison . 3 Q . By whom have you been engaged to testify in this 4 case? 5 A . I have been engaged by Mr . Hollingswocth . 6 Q . Do you have any opinions with regard to this case? 7 A . Yes, I do . 8 Q . What a re those opinions? 9I A . My opi nions are that the complaints of Joan Dine, 10 I of Amy Pine, of Laura Pine and I think -- Mr . Dine's name i= 11 John? 12 Q . Tom . 13 A . I'm sorry? 14 Q . Tom . 15 A . -- Tom are not consistent with the known effects or 16 the effects of exposure to chlordane . 17 Q . Do you have any other opinions with regard to this 18 case? 19 A . That the levels of chlordane and Heptachlor and 20 metabolites found in the blood and fat of the Dines do not 21 support a claim that exposure has resulted in any dose of 22 chlordane which would have changed the levels that they WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 ii 1 already had in them . 2 Q . Any other opinions? 3 A . I believe that would be it . 4 Q, what complaints of Joan Dine are you familiar with 5 in this case? 6 A . Severe headache dizziness, coughing and 7 congestion, throat irritation, insomnia, nightmares, weakness 8 and fatigue, forgetfulness nervousness and anxiety, tingling 9 of skin, irregular menses, and a questionable miscarriage . 10 Q . How did you become aware of those symptoms? 11 A . By reviewing her medical records . 12 Q . Which records did you review? 13 A . You mean specifically the records? I don't have 14 I them specifically here . 15 Q . well, which do you recall that you reviewed? 16 A . I just don't recall them . 17 Q . With regard to headaches, what is your opinion 18 about headaches? 19 A . What is my opinion about headaches? 20 Q . About the headaches that Joan Dine had . 21 I A . Well, my opinion is that those headaches were not 22 caused by chlordane . WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 12 1' Q . Why not? 2', A . Because the levels of chlordane that were found in 3 the house would not produce headaches and that headaches is 4 not a consistent finding, is not a finding from exposure to 5 chlordane, and that chlordane doesn't cause headaches and it 6 is also a nonspecific finding . 7 Q . What do you mean by nonspecific? 8 A . It is not associated with any particular material . 91 Q . When you say it is not associated with any specific 10 I material do you mean that it is impossible to say that any 11 material causes headaches? 12 A . Headaches occur naturally . Headaches occur 13 usually . Headaches are not necessarily caused by exposure to 14 a chemical . 15 Q . Could they be caused by exposure to a chemical? 16 A . There might be circumstances in which that could 17 happen . 18 Q . Do you know any chemicals that are known to cause 19 headaches? 20 A . I can't give you a list of chemicals that 21 specifically cause headaches . 22 Q . Can you give the name of one? WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 13 1 A . High levels of exposure to trichloro ethylene can 2 be assoc iated with headaches . 3 Q . Any other chemicals that can give headaches? 4 A . High levels of exposure to tetrachloro ethylene 5 could ca use headaches . 6 Q . Any others? 7 A . Those are the ones that I can think of as examples 8 at this time . 9 Q . Any other substances you can think of the exposure 10 to which causes headaches? 11 A . No, I just can't give you any others at this time . 12 Q . What is your opinion with regard to the dizziness 13 experien ced by Mrs . Dine? 14 A . That dizziness is not produced as a result of 15 exposure to chlordane as measured in the air of the Dine 16 home . 17 Q . What levels in the Dine home are you referring to? 18 A . The various measurements that were made . 19 Q . what are the highest levels that you noted in the 20 home? 21 A . I believe that they are around five micrograms per 221 cubic meter for chlordane . WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 14 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 I 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Q . Does chlordane cause dizziness at any levels of exposure in the air? A . I do not know of a level of chlordane that causes dizziness . Q . What is your opinion with regard to the coughs Mrs . Pine experienced in the house? A . That chlordane at the levels that were measured in the house would not cause coughing or congestion . Does chlordane at any level cause coughing or congestion? A . I do not know of a level of chlordane that causes coughing and congestion . Q . Dr . Harbison, with regard to the last two symptoms, when I asked you what your opinion was with regard to the symptoms Mrs . Dine had, you said they were not produced by chlordane at the levels she was exposed . Then when I asked you whether chlordane caused them at any levels, you said you did not know of any levels that caused it . I am wondering given the second answer to both questions, why when you answered the first question that it was not produced because the levels Mrs . Dine was exposed, why you needed to mention the levels if you don't know of any WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 15 11 levels that cause it . 2 A . Well, there may be a level, if one were to drink 3 chlordane, that could produce dizziness and in fact could 4 produce coughing . If you drank chlordane, I would expect 5 that you might in fact see those symptoms . 6 Q . Is your testimony, then, that no level of 7 inhalation of chlordane would cause those symptoms? RI A . I do not know of a level of inhalation of chlordane 9 that would cause those symptoms . 10 Q . So would your testimony be that Mrs . Pine's 11 dizziness and coughs and headaches were not caused by 12 chlordane because chlordane, when inhaled, doesn't cause 13 those symptoms, to your knowledge? 14 A . Well, again, at the levels that are there those 15 levels would not cause those symptoms and I do not know of a 76 level of chlordane in the air that would cause those 17 symptoms . 18 Q . If the levels were ten times what the levels were, 19 would your testimony be the same? 20 A . Yes it would . 21 Q . If they were a hundred times the level, would they 221 be the same? WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 16 1' A . Let me go through the mathematics . Yes, they 2 would . 3 Q . A thousand times? 4 A . I don't know about a thousand . 5 Q . Mrs . Dine's reported throat symptoms, do you have 6 an opinion about whether they were caused by chlordane? 7 A . Yes . My opinion is that throat irritation is not 8 caused by chlordane at the levels measured within the Dine 9 home . 10 Q . Is throat irritation caused by chlordane at any 11 levels? 12 A . I do not know of a level that causes throat 13 irritation . Again, that is excluding drinking the 14 chlordane . 15 ', Q . Mrs . Dine's insomnia, in your opinion was that 16 caused by exposure to chlordane? 17 A . No, it was not . 18 Q . Why not? 19 A . Because, again, the levels of chlordane in the air 20 of the home would not cause insomnia . 21 Q . Are there any levels of chlordane exposure that 22 would cause insomnia? WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 17 1 A . I don't know of a level that would cause insomnia, 2 again, excluding the possibility of drinking chlordane . 3 Q . Do you have an opinion with regard to whether 4 Mrs . Dine's nightmares were caused by exposure to chlordane? 5 A . Yes . My opinion is they were not . 6 Q . Do you believe any level of exposure to chlordane 7 causes nightmares? 8 A . I don't know of any level that causes nightmares . 9 Q . Mr= . Dine's reported muscle weakness, do you have 10 an opinion as to whether that was caused by exposure to 11 chlordane? 12 A . Yes . My opinion is that it was not at the levels 13 of exposure in the Dine home . 14 Q . Does any level of exposure to chlordane cause 15 muscle weakness? 16 A . If you drink chlordane and are exposed to extremely 17 high levels of chlordane, one might experience weakness and 18 fatigue . 19 Q . You say and "if you drink chlordane and are 20 exposed ." Does that mean that you drink a lot or do you mean 21 by "and ace exposed" or are exposed? 22 A . I'm sorry, I don't understand what that means . Let WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 18 1 me see if I can explain it . If you drink chlordane or if you 2 were to dowse yourself with chlordane all over your skin or 3 your body, there might be a possibility that one could 4 experience weakness and fatigue . 5 Q . Mrs . Dine's reported forgetfulness, do you have an 6 opinion as to whether that was caused by her exposure to 7 chlordane? SI A . Yes . My opinion is that it was not . 9 Q . Are there any levels of exposure to chlordane that 10 cause forgetfulness? 11 A . I don't know of any levels that cause 12 forgetfulness . 13 4 . Do you have an opinion as to whether Mrs . Dine's 14 nervousness was caused by exposure to chlordane? 15 A . Yes, I have an opinion . 16 Q . What is that? 17 A . My opinion is that her nervousness was not caused 18 by exposure to chlordane at the levels measured in the Dine 19 home . 20 Q . Does exposure to chlordane at any level cause 21 nervousness? 22 1 A . Again, if you were to drink chlordane, pure WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 19 1 chlordane, or if you were to spill it all over your skin, 2 there is a possibility that chlordane could result in an 3 excitation or an irritability which might be thought of as a 4 I nervousness or an anxiety . 5 Q . Do you have an opinion as to whether Mrs . Dine's 6' irregular menses was caused by her exposure to chlordane? 7 A . Yes, I have an opinion . 8 Q . What is your opinion? 9 A . My opinion is that it was not . 10 Q . Do you have an opinion as to whether chlordane at 11 any levels can cause irregular menses? 12 A . I do not know of any level of chlordane that would 13 cause irregular menses . 14 Q . Do you have an opinion as to whether Mrs . Dine's 15 miscarriage was caused by her exposure to chlordane? 16 A . Yes, I do . 17 Q . What is your opinion? 18 A . My opinion is that it was not . 19 Q . Is exposure to chlordane at any level the cause for 20 miscarriages? 21 A . I do not know of a level of chlordane that would 22 result in a miscarriage . Again, that is excluding drinking WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 20 1 chlordane . 2 Q . Now, with regard to all the symptoms you mentioned 3 for Mrs . Dine, I won't go through them again, starting with 4 headaches and ending in miscarriage, you repeatedly said that 5 you know of no levels that would cause any of those 6 symptoms . When you say that do you mean with regard to 7 human beings? 8 A . Yes . 9 Q . Do you mean that also with regard to animals? 10 A . Well, again, in animals, you could not measure 11 headache . Dizziness would be difficult to measure . You 12 certainly couldn't measure throat irritation, insomnia, 13 nightmares . One could measure weakness, you couldn't measure 14 forgetfulness, at least not easily . Nervousness, irregular 15 menses would not be easily measurable . At very high doses of 16 exposure, for example orally to chlordane, I think that one 17 might be able to produce dizziness and perhaps weakness and 18 fatigue . 19, Q . But other than dizziness and weakness and fatigue, 20 your testimony is that none of the other symptoms that 21 Mrs . Dine had could be caused by exposure to chlordane in 22 animals? WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 zi 1 A . I do not know of those symptoms being caused by 2 chlordane in animals . 3 Q . What symptoms of Amy Dine are you aware of? 4 A . Symptoms of Amy Dine are severe headaches, frequent 5 forgetfulness irritability, fatigue, poor appetite, and 6 urinary frequency . 7 Q . Do you have an opinion as to whether any of those 8 symptoms in her were caused by exposure to chlordane? 9 A . Yes, I have an opinion . 10 4 . What is your opinion? 11 A . My opinion is that those symptoms were not caused 12 by chlordane at the levels of chlordane measured in the Dine 13 home . 14 Q . Do you have an opinion as to whether those symptoms 15 can be caused by exposure to chlordane in human beings at any 16 level of exposure? 17 A . Well, again, if one were to drink chlordane or one 18 were to splash pure chlordane all over your skin, fatigue, 19 irritability, and poor appetite might be caused by drinking 20 chlordane . 21 Q . Other than by drinking it or pouring it all over 22 your skin, is your opinion, then, that none of those symptoms WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 22 1 are caused by chlordane in humans? 2 A . No, not at the level in the Dine home . 3 Q . What about at any level other than drinking it or 4 pouring it on your skin? 5 A . At any level, again, I would have to be specific . 6 I don't know . 7 Q . At a hundred times the level in the Dine home? 8 A . At a hundred times, no . 9 Q . At a thousand times? 10 A . I don't know about a thousand . 11 Q. Why is it that you don't know about a thousand? 12 A . Well, because I have never evaluated a thousand, I 13 have evaluated a hundred . 14 Q . What evaluations did you do of it at a hundred? 15 A . At a hundred, that would be the occupational 16 exposure level . 17 Q . Yes, and what evaluations did you do of that? 18 A . I reviewed the occupational literature, the 19 epidemiology, the human experience with concentrations at 20 those levels . 21 Q. What symptoms can you identify that chlordane, at 22 the occupational level, causes in humans? WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 23 1 A . Chlordane does not cause symptoms at the 2 occupational levels . 3 Q . What illnesses does chlordane cause at the 4 occupational levels? 5 A . Chlordane does not cause illness at the 6 occupational levels . 7 Q . Do you know of any illnesses or symptoms that 8 exposure to chlordane causes in humans? 9 A . At any level? 10 Q . Yes . 11 A . If one were to drink chlordane or if one were to 12 splash or pour chlordane or get chlordane in pure form on 13 your skin, chlordane can cause central nervous system 14 stimulation, it can cause muscle rigidity, it can cause 15 fatigue, it can cause those effects which would be associated 16 with stimulating the central nervous system . 17 Q . Any other effects you can identify? 18 A . No, those would be the effects . 19 Q . Is it fair to say, then, your testimony is that in 20 humans, other than drinking chlordane or splashing it all 21 over your skin, that it causes no effects in humans? 22 A . Well, within the restrictions that I just talked WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 24 1 about . 2 Q. What restrictions are those? 3 A . Well, at the occupational level and below . 4 4 " So with regard to twice the occupational level, do 5 you have an opinion as to whether exposure to chlordane 6 causes any illnesses or symptoms? 7 A . I haven't evaluated twice the occupational level . 8 Q . Do you have an opinion? 9 A . I don't have an opinion at this time . 10 Q . So if I understand your testimony, your testimony 11 is that at the occupational level, it causes no illnesses or 12 symptoms and that at the level of drinking it or splashing it 13 all over your skin, it causes central nervous system 14 stimulation and in the area between the occupational level 15 and the level of drinking it or splashing it all over your 16 skin, you have no opinion whatsoever? 17 A . Not at this time . 18 Q . Have you ever had an opinion of the area between 19 the occupational level and the drinking it or splashing it 20 all over your skin? 21 A . I don't recall . 22 Q . Now, what symptoms or illnesses are you aware of WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 25 1 that exposure to chlordane causes in animals? 2 A . What symptoms? 3 4 . Or illnesses . 4I A . It would be those that I just described . It would 5 be those primarily associated with the central nervous 6I~ system . 7 Q . Any others? 8 A . No, I don't believe so . 9 Q . Then exposure to chlordane in animals, in your 10 opinion, only causes central nervous system symptoms or 11 illnesses? 12 A . Well, it would cause those primarily associated 13 with the central nervous system . 14 Q . Well, what do you mean by primarily? 15 A . well, that would be the primary effects of 16 chlordane . 17 I Q . Wells what nonprimary ones do you mean? 18 A . I don't really know of nonprimary ones . 19 Q . What symptoms or illnesses of Laura Dine are you 20 aware of? I 21 A . Intermittent headaches, forgetfulness, increased 22 difficulty falling asleep . WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 26 1 Q . Do you have an opinion as to whether those symptoms 2 are caused by exposure to chlordane? 3 A . Yes, I have an opinion . 4 Q . What is your opinion? 5 A . My opinion is that they ace not at the levels of 6 exposure in the Dine home . 7 Q . Do you have an opinion as to whether those symptoms 81 are associated with or caused by chlordane at any levels in 9 human beings? 10 A . Well, again, if you drink it or if you splashed it 11 all over yourself, I just don't know . One might have 12 difficulty falling asleep . I just don't know . 13 Q . Would one have headaches if they drank it? 14 A . I don't know of headache as a symptom . I just 15 don't know . 16 4 . What symptoms would you have if you drank it? 17 A . Again, those that I just described to you, those 18 associated with the central nervous system . 19 Q . Could you go through those again for me, please . 20 A. Well, it would be central nervous system 21 I stimulation, which would be muscle rigidity, irritability, 22 perhaps muscle fatigue, those symptoms associated with WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 27 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 B 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 I 17 18 19 20 21 22 stimulation of the central nervous system . Q . Any other symptoms that you would have from drinking chlordane? A . Those would be the primary ones . Q . Could you die from drinking chlordane? A . Sure . Q . How much would you have to drink to die? A . I would estimate probably several ounces . I don't really know the answer to that . Q . Less than ten ounces? A . I really don't know . I would have to calculate it . There are case reports on that . Q . What symptoms of Tom Dine are you aware of? A . Mr . Dine, irritability, eye irritation . Those would be the primary ones . Q . Do you have an opinion as to whether those symptoms in Mr . Dine were caused by exposure to chlordane? A . Yes, I do . Q . What is your opinion? A . My opinion is that they were not caused as a result of exposure to chlordane at the levels in the Dine home . Q . Is irritability in humans caused by exposure to WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 28 1 chlordane at any level? 2 A . I have already said that about three times, that if 3 you drink chlordane, irritability would certainly be one of 4 those symptoms associated with drinking chlordane . 5 Q . Would eye irritation be associated with any level 6 of exposure to chlordane? 7 A . If one were to dump chlordane in your eyes, they S would be irritated . 9 Q . would exposure at any other level other than 10 dumping it in your eyes cause eye irritation? 11 A . Well, again, I would restrict my opinion to the 12 occupational level . 13 Q . Would eye irritation be caused by exposure at the 14 occupational level? 15 A . NO . 16 4 . Do you have an opinion as to whether it would be 17 caused by exposure at twice the occupational level? 18 A . I don't know the answer to that . I haven't 19 determined that . 20 Q . With regard to Mrs . Dine's symptoms, her headaches, 21 do you have an opinion as to what did cause her headaches? 22 A . She had, as I recall, a history of headaches . Why WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 29 1 they occur, I don't really have a cause at this time . I just 2 don't know . 3 Q . Do you have an opinion as to why they might have 4 been more frequent or more intense while she was in the 5 house? 6 A . I don't have an opinion . I don't know if they were 7 or were not . 8 Q . Hypothetically , if they were more intense or 9 frequent while she was in the house, do you have an opinion 10 as to what caused that? 11 A . I don't have an opinion as to what caused it . My 12 I opinion is that it was not caused by chlordane . 13 I Q . With regard to Mrs . Dine's dizziness, do you have 14 an opinion as to what caused that? 15 A . Again I don't have an opinion as to what caused 16 her dizziness, although she has a history of sinus problems . 17 i Dizziness is frequently associated with sinus problems . 18 Q . With regard to Mrs . Dine's cough and throat 19 irritations, do you have an opinion as to what caused those? 20 A . Again . I don't know specifically what caused them, 21 but she has a history of sinus problems and sinus drainage is 22 a known cause of coughing and congestion . WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 30 1 Q, With regard to her insomnia and nightmares, do you 2 have an opinion as to what caused those? 3 A . I don't have an opinion as to what caused her 4 insomnia and nightmares . 5 Q . With regard to her muscle weakness, do you have an 6 opinion as to what caused that? 7 A . I do not know the cause of her muscular weakness . 8 Q . With regard to her nervousness, do you have an 9 opinion as to what caused that? 10 A . No, I do not . 11 Q . With regard to her irregular menses, do you have an 12 opinion as to what caused that? 13 A . I believe that she was going through menopause . 14 Q . What makes you believe that? 15 A . The records that I reviewed . 16 Q . What records are those? 17 A . 2 can't remember the name of the doctor . 18 Dr . Chow? 19 Q . Chua . 20 I A . Chua . 21 Q . Do you have an opinion as to whether premature 22 menopause is caused by exposure to chlordane? WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 31 1 A . Yes, I have an opinion . 2' Q . What is your opinion? 3 A . Mp opinion is that premature menopause is not 4 caused by chlordane . 5 Q . Do you have an opinion as to whether ovarian 6j failure is caused by exposure to chlordane? 7 A . Yes, I have an opinion . 8 Q . What is your opinion? A . My opinion is that ovarian failure is not caused by 10 chlordane . 11 Q . Do you have an opinion as to whether ovarian 12 failure in animals is caused by exposure to chlordane? 13 A . Yes . 14 Q . What is that? 15 A . That it is not . 16 Q . Do you have an opinion as to whether there are any 17 adverse reproductive effects in humans caused by exposure to 18 chlordane? 19 A . Well, at the levels of exposure in the Dine home 20 and at levels in excess of that, up to a hundred times that, 21 my opinion would be no . 22 Q . That up to a hundred times the level in the Dines' WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 32 1 2 3 41 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 I 22 I home, there are no adverse reproductive effects caused by chlordane : is that your testimony? A . Yes . Q . what about above 100 times the level in the Dines' home, do you have an opinion as to whether that causes adverse reproductive effects? A . I don't know the answer to that . I haven't determined that . Q . Do you have an opinion as to whether exposure to chlordane causes adverse reproductive effects in animals? A . Yes, I have an opinion . Q . What is your opinion? A . My opinion is that in the absence of maternal toxicity, chlordane does not cause abnormal reproductive effects . 4 . What do you mean by maternal toxicity? A . If the level is high enough to make the mother ill so that there is overt toxicity either exhibited as loss of body weight, inability to move, the presence of muscle contractions or other central nervous system stimulant effects and the absence of those effects, chlordane does not produce abnormal reproductive effects . WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 33 11 Q . Are you aware of experiments that show abnormal 21 reproductive effects in animals with exposure to chlordane? 31 A . Well, again, with those restrictions, no I am not . 4 Q . The studies that you ace aware of, though, as I 5 understand your testimony, all show that there is maternal toxicity either in terms of loss of weight, inability to move 7 or muscle contraction in the mothers? B' A . I'm sorry . Am I aware that such studies exist? 9 Q . Yes . 10 A . I would have to go back and look at the studies . I 11 don't really recall any such studies . 12 Q . You said that in the absence of maternal toxicity, 13 there are no studies . I am trying to reverse that and see if 14 I understand your testimony that if there is maternal 15 toxicity from exposure to chlordane, then there are adverse 16 reproductive effects? 17 A . I can't recall of any study in which that has 18 occurred at this time . 19 Q . Why did you then put that limitation on it when I 20 asked you if there were any animal studies showing 21 reproductive effects and you added the phrase in absence of 22 maternal toxicity . I just wonder what you meant by adding WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 34 11 that phrase? 2 A . By adding that phrase, what I am doing is telling 31 you that maternal toxicity can result in abnormal 4 reproductive effects . At the present time . I do not recall 5 any studies in which there was actually maternal toxicity . 6 There are probably a dozen or more studies and I just can't 7 recall them all . I can go through them individually, but I 8 just don't recollect them all specifically . 9 Q . So if your statement is based on the fact that you 10 don't recall those, then you are not aware of any study that 11 shows reproductive effects in animals as a result of exposure 12 to chlordane? 13 A . I do not recall . Actually, the IRDC had some 14 maternal toxicity, but I don't recall any abnormal 15 reproductive outcomes . The only thing I recall is a couple 16 of early deliveries, so that would be one case in which there 17 was maternity toxicity that was observed . 18 Q . That is a case where there was maternity toxicity? 19 A . Yes . 20 Q . You remember that in the IRDC study? 21 A . Yes, both from the 1971 and 1972 studies . 22 Q . Now, if I understand your testimony right, they WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 35 1 would have maternity toxicity because they essentially drank 2 chlordane or dowsed their skin in it ; is that right? 3 A . Nor it was an oral study . They were fed 4 chlordane . 5 Q . But that oral study where they were fed chlordane 6 would be at approximate doses equal to what you referred to 7 before as drinking the chlordane? 8 A . Well, I don't know . I would have to go through 9 that calculation . They were given the chlordane in the food 10 or they were given the chlordane orally and not in the diet . 11 They were gavaged . They were force fed the chlordane . 12 I I 13 4 . So that all the answers you have given up to now where you said you don't know any effects of chlordane except 14 if a person were to dowse in it or drink it, can I infer from 15 that that what you mean is that by dowse in its or drink it, 16 you are extrapolating from the animal studies in which they 17 were either gavaged or fed chlordane? 18 A . No . 19 Q . What should I conclude from that? 20 A . Well, that there are human case reports where 21 people have drunk chlordane . 22 Q . What generalizations do you draw from the animal WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 36 1 1 studies regarding chlordane? 2 A . With regard to reproductive toxicity? 31 Q . Right . 4 A . well, again, that in the absence of maternity 5 toxicity, there are no abnormal reproductive effects seen . 6 Q . What other adverse health effects or symptoms 7 reported in animals with exposure to chlordane? 81 A . What other adverse health effects? 9 Q . Or symptoms . 10 A . Well, again, it would be those primarily associated 11 with central nervous system stimulation . 12 Q . Have you ever testified before on behalf of 13 Velsicol Chemical Corporation regarding termiticides 14 containing chlordane or Heptachlor? 15 A . I have testified for attorneys who represented 16 Velsicol . 17 Q . How many times? 18 A, I believe it has been three times . 19 Q . Would you identify those cases? 20 A . I testified in the Hardeman County matter, in the 21 Mullaney case and also in the Slowey case . 22 Q . Have you ever testified on behalf of an applicator WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 37 1 of termiticides containing chlordane and Heptachlor? 2 A . By testify, do you mean in court or anything? 31 Q . Deposition or court . 41 A . Yes, I have given a deposition . 5 Q . what case is that? 6 A . I don't recall the case . It was for Oliver 7 Goldsmiths an applicator in Texas . 8 Q . Other than the three cases that you say you have 9I testified on behalf of Velsicol and the one case in which you 10 have testified on behalf of the applicator in Texas, have you 11 been engaged to render an opinion on behalf of Velsicol in 12 other cases? 13 A . Yes, I have and I just don't recall which ones 14 those are . 15 4 . How many others? 16 A . I think it has been twice . 17 Q . What about other cases on behalf of applicators? 18 A . No, sir . 19 Q . Are there any other cases other than these cases 20 that I have mentioned on behalf of Velsicol or applicators in 21 I which you have testified or been engaged with regard to the 22 toxic effects of chlordane and Heptachlor? WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 38 1 2 31 4 5 6 7 B 9 10 11 12 I 13 I 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 I A . No . Q . Have you ever been engaged with regard to the toxicity of other chemicals? A . Yes . Q . Tell me about those . A . I'm not sure I can recollect all of them . Q . Wells tell me the ones you recollect . A . I have evaluated the health effects associated with exposure to PCB s, to chlorinated hydrocarbons, to various metals, to dioxin, and to chlorinated solvents . Those would be the ones I could recall . Q . Now, with regard to the health effects of PCB s, who retained you in that case? A . I worked for an attorney in Michigan who represented Monsanto . Q . What was your opinion with regard to the health effects of PCBs? A . well, I didn't have a general opinion with regard to the health effects of PCB .a, it was specifically for the allegations that were being made regarding PCB s . Q . What allegations were those? A . They were allegations of -- I just don't recall . I WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 39 1 think it was muscle weakness . I just don't recall all those 2 names . 3 Q . Did you find that any of those symptoms, in your 4 opinion, were caused by exposure to PCB s? 5 A . No . In my opinion they were not . 6 Q . The next instance you mentioned was chlorinated 7 hydrocarbons . Which particular chlorinated hydrocarbons did 8 you work on? 9 A . Trichloro ethylene, perchloro ethylene . Those are 10 the ones I recall . There are others, I just don't recall . 11 Q . Who engaged you in those instances? 12 A . The United States Department of Justice . 13 Q . Which case was that? 14 A . United States vs . Price was the title . 15 Q . Where was it? 16 A . In New Jersey . 17 Q . Were there any allegations of personal injuries? 18 il A . It was an allegation regarding the health risks 19 associated with drinking water containing those chlorinated 20 hydrocarbons . 21 Q . Did you have an opinion? 22 A . Yes, I did . WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 40 1 Q . What was your opinion? 2 A . I just don't recall that opinion . Generally that 3 the levels that were in the water should not be consumed 4 because of potential health risks . 5 Q . Who was the attorney you worked with on that case? 6 A . His name was Charles Walsh . 7 Q. Was that an attorney in Washington? 8 A . No, he was in the U .S . Attorney's office in New 9 Jersey . 10 Q . Did you render a written opinion in that case? 11 I A . By a written opinion, you mean an affidavit? 12 Q . Or a written report or anything which -13 A . No, sir . I don't believe there is a written 14 report . 15 Q . Did you render an affidavit? 16 A . Yes I believe I did . 17 Q . Any other cases involving chlorinated 18 hydrocarbons? 19 A . Yes . 20 Q . ' What were those? 21 A . I testified for the United States Department of 22 Justice in another litigation in New Jersey . 14-E-EKS REPORTING 301) 870-2650 41 1 Q . Yes? 21 A . Yes what? 3 Q . Go ahead and tell me more about it . 4 A . I don't recall the specific chlorinated 5 I hydrocarbons . I think it was the same ones that I already 6 mentioned to you . 7 4 . What were the allegations in that case? B A . Again, I think it was risks associated with 9 exposure to those materials . 10 Q . What was your opinion? 11 A . I just don't recall in that case . 12 Q, what attorney did you work with in that case? 13 A . The attorney's name was -- I think it was Charles 14 Welsh again . There was another attorney, I just don't 15 remember his name . 16 Q . Was your opinion that there were substantial risks 17 associated with the levels of chlorinated hydrocarbons in the 18 water or were not sub -19 A . I just don't remember my opinion in that matter . 20 Q . Were there any other cases involving chlorinated 21 hydrocarbons? 22 a . Yes . WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 42 1 Q . What were those? 2 A . I have testified for the City of Salinas, 3 California regarding the levels of chlorinated hydrocarbons 4 in the drinking water . 5 Q . What was your opinion in that case? 61 A . That the levels in the drinking water did not 7 represent a risk associated with exposure to those 8 materials . 9 4 " which attorney did you work with in that case? 10 A . The attorney's name was Stephen Lankes . 11 Q. Where does that attorney work? 12 A . Salinas, California . 13 Q . Was did for the city government or a private firm? 14 A . I don't know the answer to that . 15 Q . What other cases did you work on regarding 16 chlorinated hydrocarbons? 17 A . Those are the ones that I can recall . 18 Q . The next cases you mentioned you said regarded 19 metals . 20 A . Yes, sir . 21 Q . Tell me the first case involving metals . 22 I A . That would have been United States vs . Price for WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 43 1 the Department of Justice . 2 Q . What was your opinion regarding the metals? 3 A . That the levels in the drinking water exceeded the 4 safe drinking water standards and should not be consumed . 5 Q . In that case, did you have evidence that the levels 6, at which the metals existed, there was proof that they caused 7I injury to human health? 8 A . I don't recall that at all . 9, Q . With regard to the chlorinated hydrocarbons, I 10 believe you said your opinion was that the water should not 11 be consumed? 12 A . That's correct . 13 Q . Was that because the chlorinated hydrocarbons 14 existed in the water, there was evidence that it caused 15 injury to human health? 16 A . No, that there was a risk . 17 , I 18 Q. metals? What other cases did you work on concerning 19 A . Metals were also in the Bridgeport litigation . 20 Q. Which case is that, sir? 21 A . United States vs . B.ridgeport 22 Q . what were the allegations in that case? WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 44 1 A . Again, that metals were contaminating water and 2 that people were exposed to the water . 3 Q . What was your opinion? 4 A . I just don't recall in that case . 5 Q . On whose behalf did you appear? 6 A . United States Department of Justice . 7 4 . You don't recall whether your opinion was that the 8 metals presented a danger or not? 9 A . I just don't recall . 10 Q . What other cases involving metals? 11 I A . Those are the only ones I recall . 12 Q . The next topic you mentioned was dioxin . Could you 13 name the case that you worked on involving dioxin? 14 A . Yes . I testified for and worked with an attorney 15 in New Orleans who represented, I believe, Monsanto . 16 Q . What were the allegations in that case? 17 A . That dioxin caused an ailment in an individual . 18 Q . What ailment was that? 19 A . Porphyria . 20 Q . Did you have an opinion in that case? 21 A . Yes, I did . 22 I Q . What was your opinion? WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 45 1 A . My opinion was that the dioxin did not cause the 2 porphyria . 3 Q . Is your opinion that the dioxin does not cause 4 porphyria in general? 5 A . Acute intermittent porphyria, yes . My answer would 6 be yes, that it does not . 7 Q . Does it cause any other porphyria2 8 A . No, it does not appear to cause porphyria cutanea 9 tarda either . 10 Q . Any other cases involving dioxin? 11 A . In which I have testified or given a deposition, or 12 either? 13 Q . Or have been retained to render an opinion . 14 A . Yes . 15 IC Q . Tell us about that case . 16 A . I was retained by the state of Arkansas in Arkansas 17 vs . United States Environmental Protection Aaencv to evaluate 18 the health risks associated with removal of dioxin at the 19 Vertac plant site . 20 Q . What was your opinion? 21 A . My opinion was that there were risks . 22 Q . On whose behalf did you appear? WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 46 1 A . The State of Arkansas . 2 4 . Now, what was the position of the United States 3 with regard to those risks? 4 A . The position of the United States was that there 5 was not a risk . 6 Q . What other cases concerning dioxin did you work T on? 8 A . I have worked on an exposure assessment for Times 9 Beach . 10 Q . On whose behalf are you working in that case? 11 A . Syntex Drug Company . 12 Q . What do you mean by exposure assessment? 13 A . To evaluate the exposure of the inhabitants of 14 various houses and trailers that were located at the Times 15 Beach area . 16 Q . Have you reached an opinion in that case? 17 A . No, I have not . 18 Q . What other cases concerning dioxin have you worked 19 on? 20 A . The other one is an exposure assessment of 21 residents living near a landfill that contained dioxin and 22 I other chemicals as a result of a production facility that was WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 47 1 operated, I believes by Vertac Chemical Company . 2 Q . Where is that landfill? 3 A . It is in Jacksonville . Arkansas . 4 Q . On whose behalf did you appear in that case? 5 A . I am working for a law firm which I believe 6 represents Vertac . 7 Q . Have you reached any opinions in that case? 8 A . I have not reached opinions . 9 Q . Any other cases you are working on regarding 10 dioxin? 11 A . No, sir . 12 Q . The next category I wrote down was chlorinated 13 solvents . Would you tell me the first case that you have 14 been working on regarding chlorinated solvents? 15 A . The chlorinated solvents was Salinas, California . 16 Q . That was the case that you worked with Mr . Lankes 17 and your opinion was that they did not present a risk? 18 A . That's correct . 19 Q . Any other cases involving chlorinated solvents? 20 A . No, that's the only one I recall at this time . 21 Q . Any other cases that you can recall at this time 22 regarding the health risks or injuries caused by chemicals on WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 48 1 which you have worked in any other way that you can 2 remember? 3 A . I just can't recall . I am sure there are others, I 41 just can't recall them . 51 Q. Have you worked on any projects regarding the human 6 health of chemicals and any administrative bodies? 7 A . I'm sorry, I don't know what that means . 8 Q . Before the United States Environmental Protection 9 Agency or a state agency . 10 A . Yes, I have . 11 Q . Could you tell me about those? 12 I A . I have evaluated human health risks associated with 13 a variety of chemicals for the State of Florida . 14 Q . Which department of the State of Florida? 15 A . I don't know the answer to that . I think it is the 16 Department of Health and Human Rehabilitative Services . 17 Q . When did you do that? 18 A . Approximately a year ago . 19 Q . Now, did you produce a document? 20 A . I produced some documents, yes, sir . 21 Q . Would you be willing to send me a copy of those? 22 A . I don't think I can do that . I have a WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 49 1 confidentiality agreement . These are being used to 2 promulgate water standards . Those standards have not been 3 promulgated and as a result that information is not 4 available . 5 Q . What other administrative bodies have you worked on 6 projects for? 7 A . I have reviewed cebuttable presumptions for the 8 U .S . EPA . 9 Q . Which are those? 10 A . I'm sorry? 11 Q . Which cebuttable presumptions have you .reviewed7 12 A . I don't recall all of them . I did one, I believe, 13 for arsenic and I believe I did one for cadmium . 14 Q . What was your opinion with regard to arsenic? 15 A . I just don't recall . 16 Q . Do you recall your opinion with regard to cadmium? 17 A . No, I do not . 18 Q . what other administrative bodies have you worked on 19 behalf of? 20 A . In any capacity at all? 21 Q . Right . 22 A . I have worked for the U .S . EPA in evaluating WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 50 1 chemical emergency spills or emergency chemical spills or 2 chemical spills in general . I have evaluated worker safety 3 programs . I have developed medical monitoring programs for 4 U .S . EPA field investigation teams, for U .S . EPA technical 5 assistance teams . I have evaluated research programs for the 6 National Academy of Sciences, for the National Institute of 7 Environmental Health Sciences, National Institute of 8 Occupational Saftety and Health . Those are some that I can 9 recall . 10 Q . what other administrative bodies have you worked on 11 behalf of? 12 A . The United States Department of Agriculture . 13 Q . What did you do for them? 14 A . I evaluated the health effects associated with the 15 use of various pesticides and control of the gypsy moth and 16 other pests and I just don't recall the other pests . 17 Q . When was that? 18 A . That would have been approximately two years ago . 19 Q . Did that process concern itself with chlordane or 20 Heptachlor? 21 A . No, it did not . 22 I Q . What other administrative bodies have you worked on WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 51 ~1 behalf of? 2 A . I have worked for the State of Tennessee, Attorney 3 General's office . 4 Q . What case was that, what matter? 5 A . Evaluating environmental contamination, 6 participating in the evaluation of the cause of death of 7 Elvis Presley, testifying before the Medical Examiner's 8 Board . 9 4 . Is that with regard to this Elvis Presley matter? 10 A . Yes, sir . 11 Q . What other administrative bodies have you worked on 12 behalf of? 13 A . I believe that's all I can recall at this time . I 14 just don't recall any others . 15 Q . Have you ever given any testimony to any 16 legislative bodies? 17 A . Testimony before any legislative bodies? 18 Q . Right . 19 A . Yes, I have . 20 Q, Which are those? 21 A . The United States Congress . 22 Q . Could you tell us what you testified? WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 52 1 A . I testified before Congressmen Scheuer and Fuqua 2 regarding hazardous waste site investigations . I testified 3 before Congressman Waxman's committee regarding chlordane . 4 Q . When was that? 5 A . Oh, I believe it was approximately four or five 6 months ago . 7 Q . What did you testify at that committee? 8 A . What did I testify? 9 Q . Yes . What was the substance of your testimony? 10 A . It concerned the reproductive toxicity and I 11 I believe it was the mutagenicity of chlordane . 12 Q . Would you be willing to send me a copy of your 13 testimony? 14 A . I don't know if I have it . If I do, I will send it 15 to Mr . Hollingsworth and he can decide whether he wants to 16 send it to you or not . 17 MR . SIMON : Mr . Hollingsworth, if he sends it to 18 you, will you? 19 MR . 80LLINGSWORTH : Yes . 20 BY MR . SIMON : 21 Q . On behalf of whom did you testify at Congressmen 22 waxman's hearing? WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 53 1 A . I testified on behalf of Velsicol . 2' Q . Did they pay you to testify that day? 3 I A . Well, they didn't pay me to testify . I was paid 4 for my time . 5 Q . How much did they pay you for your time in that to 6 testify? 7 A . I believe it was a thousand dollars . 8 Q . What other legislative bodies have you testified in 9 front of? 10 A . I believe that's all . 11 Q . Other than the three cases that you mentioned and 12 the testimony at the waxman hearings, have you ever done any I 13 ~I projects for Velsicol Chemical Corporation? 14 A . No, I have not . 15 I, Q . Do you have any opinions with regard to studies of 16 I toxicity on animals as to their applicability to humans? 17 II A . Do I have any opinions in that regard? 18 Q . Yes . 19 A . Well, it would depend on what the question is, I 20 don't know . You mean in general? 21 Q . Yes, in general . 22 I A . Well, in general there can be differences between WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 54 11 animals and man and often animal data is not extrapolatable 21 to man . 31 4 . Have you ever given testimony that animal data is 4 extrapolatable to man? 5 A . I don't know the answer to that . I just don't 6 recall . 7 4 . Have you ever given testimony on behalf of the 81 United States Environmental Protection Agency regarding 9 whether animal data was reliable as a predictor of effects in 10 humans? 11 A . I just don't recall . I may have in the Price 12 matter . I just don't remember . 13 Q . Is your view in general that animal data is not 14 reliable with regard to predicting health effects in humans? 15 A . Well, my opinion is that animal data is useful for 16 establishing public policy and in the absence of information 17 in humans, that animal data can be used to establish public 18 policy . Animal data cannot be used in general to establish 19 the cause of a disease in man, so I would discriminate my 20 testimony regarding public policy from that regarding the 21 cause of an individual's ailment or illness . 22 I Q . Why do you make that distinction? WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 55 11 A . Well, because the same rigorous evaluation is not 2' required for public policy . One can evaluate animal data in 3 a much more conservative way to establish public policy and 4 the rigorous evaluation of a cause and effect relationship is 5 just not required . 6 Q . Why is that? 7 A . Well, I don't know why it is . That's just the way 8 public policy is promulgated . That is simply the way it is . 9 Q . I believe what I wrote down for the second opinion 10 that you had is you testified that the levels of chlordane 11 and Heptachlor and their metabolites in the blood and fat of 12 the Dines do not support a claim that exposure would have 13 changed the levels that were already there . Is that a fair 14 repeating of what your opinion is? 15 A . Yes, that the levels in the fat have not 16 demonstrated that in fact there was an exposure that resulted 17 in a dose to those individuals . 18 Q . Could you explain that, please? 19 A . Well, exposure is only the opportunity to get a 20 chemical or anything else into the body . What ultimately 21 matters is the dose that you get, not what the exposure is . 22 In evaluating those levels, there is no evidence that in fact WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 56 1 that exposure resulted in any dose . 2 Q . Why is that? 3 A . Well, because they are not different from the 4 levels in the general population . 5 Q . So your testimony that there is no dose is based on a comparison with the levels in the general population? 7 A . That's correct . 8 Q . Is it based on anything else? 9 A . It would be based upon that comparison . 10 Q . Now, when you base it on the general population, 11 what estimates of the levels in the general population are 12 you relying on? 13 A . That would be the U .S . EPA fat and blood survey . 14 Q . Which is that? 15 A . Well, it is done every year . 16 I Q . Which one are you relying on? 17 A . Well, I will rely upon a number of them from 1979 18 through 1986 . 19 Q . Do you want to identify each of those by its proper 20 name? 21 A . I can't do that right now . I just don't have them 22 here . WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 57 1 Q . Well, could you give me a little better 2 identification so the record will be clear what you are 3 relying on? 4 A . Well, it is the United States Environmental 5 Protection Agency, I think it is called "The Fat and Tissue 6 Survey,* in which fat samples and other tissue samples are 7i taken and evaluated for pesticides, PCB .s, and a variety of 8 other substances . 9 Q . Now, your testimony is that the levels of 10 Heptachlor and chlordane and their metabolites in the blood 1l and fat of the Dines, as they compare to the general 12 populations do not indicate there was a dose? 13 A . That's correct . 14 Q . Is there any other basis? I mean is it your 15 testimony that they didn't have a dose? 16 A . Well, that's the way that I would ultimately 17 determine whether they got a dose or not, is to measure it, 18 but I would also use the levels that were measured in the 19 house and that based upon those levels, you would not expect 20 to see any change in the chlordane or Heptachlor levels based 21 upon exposure to those levels . 22 Q . Could you explain that? WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 58 T 1 A . Well, that the dose that one would get from that 2 would not change the levels that people already have in 3 them . 4 Q . Now, could you explain what your basis for that 5 is? 6 A . Well, I would have to go through the entire 7 exposure scenario, which I just can't do at this time . 8 Q . Do you have any studies or literature that you are 9 relying on or authorities for the proposition that the levels 10 of chlordane, Heptachlor in the house were not of an order of 11 magnitude that would change the levels of chlordane and 12 Heptachlor or their metabolites that were found in the serum 13 of the Dines? 14 A . It would be based upon general knowledge of 15 metabolism, in elimination and excretion of these materials . 16 Q . Other than your comparing the levels in the Dines 17 to the general population as measured by the EPA and your 18 opinion that the levels that were found in the air in the 19 house would not be of a magnitude to cause a level in the 20 serum to change, what other facts or ideas contribute to your 21 opinion that there was no dose? 22 A . Well, I think those would be the facts that I would WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 59 1 rely upon . 2 Q . Any other facts that you rely on? 3 A . I can't recall any at this time . 4 Q . Have you looked at any blood or serum samples from 5 before they entered the house? 6 A . No . I have not . 7 Q . Would they be relevant if you had them? S A . They may be . I would expect them to be the same . 9 Q . Is your opinion based on the levels of other 10 substances that were found in the bloody such as DDE .? 11 A . I don't understand that question . 12 Q . I will move on . When we were talking earlier about 13 various health symptoms of the Dines, you indicated that all 14 of the symptoms they reported were not caused in your 15 opinion, by chlordane and you also indicated that at the 16 levels the Dines were exposed or even at a hundred times the 17 levels, in your opinion, none of those symptoms could be 18 caused by chlordane ; is that correct? 19 A . That's correct . 20 Q . I think you also testified, I just want to catch 21 myself up, that no human health effects are caused by 22 chlordane except the central nervous system effects that are WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 60 1 caused by drinking or dowsing yourself in it ; is that 2 correct? 3 A . That if you drank or dowsed yourself in it, those 4i would be the symptoms that would be seen, yes . 5 Q . But other than that, you wouldn't expect to see any 6 symptoms in humans from exposure to chlordane? 7 A . No, those would be the symptoms . 8 Q . Does the opinion on the symptoms that are not 9 caused by chlordane based on the fact that there is no 10 evidence that those symptoms are caused by chlordane or is 11 it based on the fact that there have been tests to determine 12 whether those symptoms are caused by chlordane and those 13 tests have proven negative? 14 A . Well, that there have been many people exposed to 15 chlordane and those symptoms are not seen in those people . 16 Q . So you think there is not only an absence of 17 information to prove that the symptoms are caused by 18 chlordane but there is affirmative proof that they are not? 19 A . Yes, I think that the evidence that is available 20 shows that those symptoms are not caused by chlordane . 21 Q . And you think that the evidence that is available 22 I is sufficient in your mind to come to a conclusion that they WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 61 11 are not caused by it, or do you think more information is 2 needed? 3I A . No, I think that at the levels of exposure and 4 those symptoms that more information is not needed . 5'. Q . Are you familiar with a document entitled "Guidance 6 for the Reregistration of Pesticide Products Containing as 7 the Active Ingredient Chlordane"? It is an Environmental 8 Protection Agency document dated December 31st, 1986? 9 A . I don't believe I am familiar with that . 10 Q . You are not? Are you familiar with any opinion of 11 EPA regarding data gaps concerning chlordane? 12 A . I don't know of that opinion . 13 Q . Do you believe that there are data gaps with regard 14 to the effects of chlordane on human health? 15 A . I don't know of data gaps, no, sir . 16 Q . Have you reviewed or ever seen a document entitled 17 "Review of Toxicology of Chlordane and Heptachlor" by 18 Velsicol Chemical Corporation, January 1985? 19 A . I don't think so . 20 Q . Have you ever seen a document entitled "The 21 I Toxicology Review of Chlordane and Heptachlor" by Grutsch, 22 I Khasawinah dated 1982 by Velsicol Chemical Corporation? WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 62 1 A . I don't believe so . 2 Q . Do you know who Mr . Rhasawinah is? 3 A . Yes, I do . 41 Q . Who is he? 51 A . Well, he is an employee of Velsicol . I think he is 6 in the toxicology group . I don't really know his position . 7 Q . Have you ever spoken to Mr . Rhasawinah? 8 A . Yes, I have . 9 Q . What have you spoken to him about? 10 A . Well, I certainly don't recollect the 11 conversations . I have spoken to him, I guess, about 12 chlordane, levels in houses . I just can't recall specific 13 conversations . 14 Q . Do you have an opinion as to what level of 15 chlordane is safe in the air of a house? 16 A . I don't have a precise number, no . 17 Q . Do you think chlordane at the level of the 18 occupational standard is safe in a house? 19 A . I think that probably that level should be lowered 20 for a residential area . 21 Q . How much should it be lowered to? 22 I A . I haven't gone through that calculation . WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 63 1 Q . If I understand your testimony, it was that at the 2 occupational level there have been no health effects that you 3 know that chlordane causes . Why isn't it safe to have it at 4 the occupational level in people's houses? 5 A . Probably because exposure would be a little longer 6 than the workplace exposure, so one would have to adjust for 7 that level . 8 Q . Once you have adjusted the occupational standard, 9 which is based on eight hours, to the time that a person 10 spends in a houses would that be an adequate adjustment to 11 set a safe level for chlordane being in a residence? 12 A . Again, I haven't gone through that calculation . It 13 i is still my opinion that at that level, I would not consider 14 that hazardous, but I haven't gone through that entire 15 calculation . So I just don't know the answer to that . 16 Q . If you had chlordane at the occupational level in 17 your house, what would you do? 18 A . Well, I think if chlordane were at the occupational 19 maximum or above that I would probably recommend not living 20 in that house until that level was reduced . 21 Q . If the level couldn't be reduced below the 22 occupational level, what would you recommend? WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 64 1 A . I would probably recommend that you not live in 2 that house . 3 Q . what about if the level were half the occupational 4 level, what would you recommend? 5 A . Again, I haven't gone through that calculation, so 6 I can't give you an answer to that . 7 Q . Why is its if there are no health effects at the 8 occupational level, you would recommend that people not live 9 in the house? 10 A . Why would I go through that exercise? 11 Q . Right . 12 A . Well, again, it is a matter of public policy . If 13 you are asking me about the level that I would recommend be 14 in houses, I would make a public policy toxicology decision 15 based upon human experience, occupational exposures and a 16 I safety factor applied to that occupational exposure . If you 17 are asking me about a specific injury caused by exposure to 18 those levels, those are two different questions . I would 19 have to answer them differently . 20 Q. I am asking you a really different question, 21 though, which is about yourself . What would you do if you 22 had in your own houses not a public policy decision, but what WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 65 1 would you recommend or what would you do in your own house if 2 the levels were one half the occupational level and you had 3 adjusted the occupational level for time so that it was one 4 half the level once the time had been adjusted . 5 A . Now, I just really can't answer that question 6 because I haven't gone through that determination . I mean, I 7 just don't know . 8 Q . Well, what would your opinion be? 9 A . I can't give you an opinion because I haven't gone 10 through that process . I can give you an opinion regarding 11 the occupational level and above that . My opinion is that I 12 think you should not continue to live in that house . 13 Q . Why is it if it is a judgment involving public 14 policy and not a scientific proof that there is injury at the 15 level, why is it that you are clear at the occupational level 16 and not half of it? 17 A . I'm sorry, I didn't understand that . 18 Q . If there is no proof in your mind that chlordane at 19 the occupational level causes injury, why is it that you have 20 an opinion at the occupational level, feel confident there of 21 an opinion, but don't have one at half the occupational 22 level? WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 66 1 A . Well, because I haven't gone through that process . 2' I simply haven't evaluated half of that level . I 3I Q . What process have you gone through with regard to 4 the occupational level, except the only process I have heard 5 you describe is to say it is safe at that level . 6 A . Well, at that level there is no adverse effects 7 associated with exposure to that level, that's correct . 81 Q . So, then, why is it that you recommend moving out 9 at that level? 10 A . Well, because exposure would be for longer than 11 eight hours . The exposure might be ten hours, it might be 14 12 hours, it might be 20 hours . 13 I Q . Well, assuming that you adjusted the level so that 14 the level was at the occupational level, having adjusted the 15 hours, would you still recommend moving out? 16 A . I think I have already answered that question . I 17 would have to go through that process . I would have to look 18 at the concentration, the hours, the workplace standard, 19 calculate a dose, look at margins of safety, apply those 20 margins of safety and ultimately make a determination 21 regarding a 24-hour level . I haven't done that . 22 I Q . well, assuming that you did the calculation and WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 67 1 that you adjusted all the figures in the level of exposure 2 that a person got in the house was exactly the same level of 3 exposure they got, the maximum of the occupational level, 4 then what would you recommend? 5 A . I'm sorry, I don't understand that question 6 either . 7 Q . Well, the occupational level gives a certain amount 8 that you are exposed to in terms of a dose and then over time 9 and assume that you calculated the person lived in the house 10 either more or less time and then you essentially adjusted 11 the numbers so that the dose the person got in every 24-hour 12 or one-week period was the same dose that the person got at 13 the maximum of the occupational exposure under the eight-hour 14 rule, what would your recommendation be about continuing in 15 the house at that point? 16 A . You mean if the level was at the occupational 17 level? 18 Q . Right . 19 A . Well, I think I have already answered that . If it 20 is at the occupational level or above, my recommendation 21 would not be to continue to live in that house . 22 Q . Raving said that, why is it that you would WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 68 1 recommend that if at the occupational level there are no 2 injuries caused? 3 A . well, let me say it again . Because the time of 4 exposure would be extended beyond that which exists in the 5 workplace, which is eight to ten hours, so there would have 6 to be an adjustment made for that additional exposure time 7 which may result in a different dose based upon a longer 8 period of exposure . 9 Q . Doctor . I don't think I am clear . What if you had 10 now made that adjustment, and assume for a second having made 11 the adjustment that the longer time of exposure was coupled 12 I with a reduction in the amount of exposure at any given time 13 so that in the end result the person was exposed to the exact 14 same amount that they would be at the occupational level, in 15 other words less but for more time or more but for a shorter 16 times and you got an exposure that was approximate to the 17 maximum of the occupational level, in other words you had 18 ', done the calculations and got it at the same amount, would 19 you recommend leaving the house then? 20 A . This is for public policy matter? 21 Q . No, for you personally . would you recommend that 22 you leave the house, your family? WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 69 1 A . I think for me personally, again, I would go 2 through a public policy determination and I would apply some 31 safety factor to that evaluation, so I would probably further 4 I lower that number . 5 Q . The question of this public policy or process that 6 you would go through in determining what you would do, what 7 would be your best estimate as to what that level would beg 8 that would be the maximum acceptable level in a house 9 adjusted over time? 10 A . I haven't gone through that process . I just 11 haven't done it . 12 4 . Are you aware of the NAS/NRC recommended guidelines 13 ', for exposure? 14 A . Yes, I am . 15 Q . What are those? 16 'i A . Five micrograms per cubic meter for chlordane and 17 I!, two micrograms per cubic meter for Heptachlor . 18 Q . What is your opinion of those? 19 , A . Those are guidelines . Those are guidelines that 20 were established for military housing based upon the level 21 that could be achieved by cleaning up or removing the applied 22 material from the military housing . WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 70 11 Q . What is your opinion as to what you would recommend 21 to a person who is exposed to levels at or above those 31 guidelines? 4 A . Oh, I think above those guidelines, my 5 recommendation within certain limits would not be to move . 6 Q . Give me some idea of the order of magnitude of 7 those limits . 8 A . You are asking me the same question from another 9 end . I c an't give you that answer . Clearly four or five, 10 even ten times above that, I think just from what I know 11 about chl ordane, would not be a risk . 12 Q . What about 20 times above it? 13 A . I don't know the answer to that . 14 Q . But at ten times you feel that there is no risk? 15 A . Yes, sir . 16 4 . But you don't feel comfortable at 20? 17 A . Actually I think at 20 I wouldn't have a problem 18 with that either . 19 Q. What about 30? 20 A . I don't know . 21 Q . Why do you feel comfortable at 20 but not at 30? 22 A . well, just based upon my general knowledge of WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 71 1 chlordane . 2 Q . Well, what knowledge is there that seems to make 3 some kind of impression in your mind between 20 times and 30 4 times the NAS guidelines? 5 A . Well, again, it is simply my experience, my 6 knowledge of chlordane, having reviewed the literature, just 7 my general knowledge about chlordane that would lead me to 8 that estimate . 9 Q . What documents have you seen in this case other 10 than the Dines' medical records? 11 A . I have seen the -- included in those medical 12 records would be the fat and the blood testing? 13 Q ., Right . 14 A . I have seen, I believe, some of the house sampling 15 data . I'm sorry, I don't have it here . 16 Q . You mean the monitoring as to whether there was 17 chlordane and Heptachlor in the air or the surfaces? 18 A . Yes, sir . 19 Q . Those are the data that led to your conclusion that 20 it was at safe levels of chlordane? 21 A . Yes . 22 Q . What other data or information have you seen in WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 7s i this case? 2 A . I believe that's it . No, I'm sorry . I have the 3 deposition of Dr . Chua . 4 Q . Right . 5 A . I believe -- let's seep I had the deposition of 6 Mr . and Mrs . Dine . 7 Q . Right . 8 A . I think that's it . And then the medical records of 9 various physicians . 10 Q . How much time did you spend on this case prior to 11 the deposition today? 12 A . I would estimate, I don't know, probably about six 13 hours . 14 Q . In your conversations, Doctor, with someone from my 15 office about scheduling this deposition, did anybody ask any 16 questions about your opinions or anything about the substance 17 of the case? 18 A . No . No questions were asked about my opinions . 19 Q . Is it fair to say that the subject of these 20 conversations, whoever introduced them or started them, was 21 solely about the scheduling of the deposition? 22 A . Yes, it was about the scheduling of the deposition WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 73 1 and about my inability to testify if I didn't do that . 2 Q . When were those conversations? 3 A . Those conversations were last week, probably Monday 4 or Tuesday . 5 Q . Was it true as of last week that there was a 6 tentative time scheduled for this deposition that you were 7 not able to comply with? 8 A . I'm sorry, that there was a time -- 9 Q . Was there a tentative time scheduled for this 10 deposition prior to these telephone conversations? 11 A . I'm sorry, I didn't hear your question . 12 Q . Was there a tentative time scheduled for this 13 deposition prior to last week? 14 A . Yes, I believe so . 15 Q . Was the reason these conversations took place last 16 week because you were unable to be deposed at the tentative 17 time? 18 A . No, I don't believe so . 19 MR . SIMON : Thank you very much . That's the end of 20 my questions, Doctor . Anybody else? 21 22 r EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE DEFENDANT WEEDS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 74 1 BY MR . HOLLINGSWORTH : 2 Q . Dr . Harbison, this is Joe Bollingsworth . 3 A . Yes, sit . 4 Q . I have a short series of questions about Tom Dine . 5 Have you reviewed Tom Dine's medical records? 6 A . Yes, sir . 7 Q . Were you aware that Tom Dine is a diabetic? 8 A . Yes . 9 Q . Were you aware that his insulin requirement went 10 up, apparently, while he lived in the house at issue in this 11 case? 12 A . I was not aware of that . 13 Q . Are you aware that he has made the claim that his 14 diabetes condition went out of whack during the time he 15 resided in the house at issue in this case? 16 A . I was not aware of that, no . 17 Q . I would like you to assume three things, that he 18 has claimed that his diabetes went out of whack during the 19 time that he was a resident in the house at issue in this 20 case, that his insulin requirement went up during that time 21 period and, thirdly, that the insulin requirement stayed up 22 after exposure had terminated allegedly, that is after he WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 75 1 left the house and discontinued residence in the house at 2 issue in this case . I would like to ask you whether you have 3 an opinion as to whether or not chlordane caused his diabetes 4 to go out of whack and his insulin requirement to go up? 5 A . Yes, I have an opinion . 6 Q . What is your opinion? 7 A . My opinion is that chlordane would not have caused 8 his diabetes to go out of whack or to increase his 9 requirement for insulin . 10 MR . HOLLINGSWORTH : Thank you . 11 MR . HART : I have nothing . 12 MR . SIMON : No further questions . 13 You have a right, Doctors to read your deposition 14 and sign it or not do that . That's your choice . You can 15 confer with Mr . Hollingsworth or decide now, whatever you 16 I prefer . 17 TAE WITNESS : I would prefer to read and sign it, 18 i, Joe . 19 MR . HOLLINGSWORTH : Thank you, Dr . Harbison . 2 0 I' (Whereupon, the deposition of RAYMOND HARBISON was 21 concluded at 5 :53 p .m .) 22 CERTIFICATE OF DEPONENT WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 76 1 2 I hereby certify that I have read the foregoing 3 Pages a through 7s of my deposition testimony taken in this 4 proceeding, and the same is a true, correct and complete 5 transcription of the testimony given by me, and any changes 6 and/or corrections appear on the attached errata sheet signed 7 by me . 8 9 10 (Date) RAYMOND HARBISON 11 12 r 13 CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC 14 Subscribed and sworn to before me this the,- day of 15 . 1988 . 16 17 18 NOTARY PUBLIC IN AND FOR 19 20 My commission expires : 21 22 WITNESS : Raymond Harbison CASE : Dine vs . Velsicol WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 77 1 2 Please note any errors and the corrections thereof on this errata sheet . The rules require a reason for any change or 3 correction . It may be general, such as "To correct stenographic error," or "TO clarify the record," or "To 4 conform with the facts ." PAGE LINE CORRECTION REASON FOR CHANGE 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 WEEKS REPORTING SERVICE (301) 870-2650 7e 1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 2 3 i, Sally V . Weeks, do hereby certify that the 4 foregoing proceedings were taken by me in stenotype and 5 thereafter reduced to typewriting under my supervision ; that 6 I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of 7 the parties to the action in which these proceedings were 8 taken ; and further, that I am not a relative or employee of 9 any attorney or counsel employed by the parties hereto nor 10 financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of the 11 action . 12 13 14 15 Sally V. Weeks Court Reporter 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 WEEKS REPORTINr SERVICE (3011 870-2650