Document GzKerLaOBr9pqJv65DyN3aweY

FILE NAME: Volkswagon (VK) DATE: 2019 DOC#: VK007 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Legal - Motion for Partial Summary Judgment Filing # 100629430 E-Filed 12/20/2019 09:43:54 AM IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE 11TH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT IN AND FOR MIAMI-DADE COUNTY, FLORIDA ROBERT G. CLARK and ALANA CLARK, his wife, ASBESTOS DIVISION CASE NO.: 14-027985 Plaintiffs, v. VOLKSWAGEN AKTIENGESELLSCHAFT, et al., Defendants. / PLAINTIFFS' MOTION FOR PARTIAL SUMMARY JUDGMENT COME NOW, Plaintiffs, by and through the undersigned counsel, pursuant to Florida Rule of Civil Procedure 1.510, and hereby move for partial summary judgment on Defendant VOLKSWAGEN AKTIENGESELLSCHAFT's ("VWAG") affirmative defenses numbers 23 and 53. In support thereof, Plaintiffs state as follows: LEGAL STANDARD Pursuant to Rule 1.510(c) of the Florida Rules of Civil Procedure, a motion for summary judgment should be granted in favor of the moving party if "the pleadings, depositions, answers to interrogatories and admissions on file together with the affidavits, if any, show that there is no genuine issue as to any material fact and that the moving party is entitled to judgment as a matter of law." Fla. R. Civ. P. 1.510(c); see also Zabrani v. Riveron, 495 So. 2d 1195, 1199 (Fla. 3d DCA 1986). The purpose of summary judgment "is to avoid the expense and delay of trials when all facts are admitted or when a party is unable to support by any competent evidence a contention of fact." N at'l Airlines, Inc. v. Fla. Equipment Co. o fMiami, 71 So. 2d 741, 744 (Fla. 1954). See also Bakker v. First Fed. Sav. & Loan A ss'n o fHammonton, New Jersey, 575 So.2d 222, 224 (Fla. 1 3d DCA 1991) (explaining that the purpose of the partial summary judgment procedure is to narrow the issues in a case so as to limit the matters genuinely in dispute which must be taken to trial). The party moving for summary judgment must show the absence of a genuine issue of material fact, and the court must draw every possible inference in favor of the non-moving party. Craven v. TRG Boynton Beach, Ltd., 925 So. 2d 476, 480 (Fla. 4th DCA 2006) (citing Wills v. Sears, Roebuck & Co., 351 So. 2d 29 (Fla. 1977)). Once the movant on summary judgment meets his burden of conclusively demonstrating that no genuine issue of material fact exists, the burden shifts to the opposing party to come forward with evidence sufficient to show an issue of fact. See Slacther v. Abundio Inv. Co., 566 So. 2d 348, 349 (Fla. 3d DCA 1990); see also Lenhal Realty, Inc. v. Transamerica Comm. Fin. Corp., 615 So. 2d 207, 208 (Fla.4th DCA 1993). It is not enough for the opposing party to merely assert that a genuine issue of material fact exists. See Almond Constr. Co. v. Evans, 547 So. 2d 626, 628 (Fla. 1989). Likewise, summary judgment is appropriately granted where there is a complete lack of evidence concerning an essential element of the cause of action. See Mahoney v. Burger King Corp., 600 So. 2d 1252 (Fla. 3d DCA 1992); F & R Builders v. Lowell Dun Co., 364 So. 2d 826, 828 (Fla. 3d DCA 1978). ARGUMENT Robert G. Clark and Alana Clark ("Plaintiffs") filed their initial Complaint on October 31, 2014. Plaintiffs allege that Mr. Clark's exposure to defendants' asbestos-containing products caused him to develop asbestosis and diffuse pleural thickening. On February 10, 2015, VWAG filed its answer and affirmative defenses. See Exhibit A. 2 VWAG's affirmative defense number 23 states as follows: If Plaintiff, Robert G. Clark, either used, or was exposed to, products manufactured or supplied by VW AG, and if it is shown that such use and/or exposure is causally related to his alleged injuries and/or damages, all of which is specifically denied, then it is averred that he was himself negligent in the following particulars: In failing to use proper safety equipment, which was available to Mr. Clark; In failing to demand the proper safety equipment be supplied to Mr. Clark; In failing to read the instructions and/or warnings distributed by VWAG in connection with the sale or use of its products; By using improper techniques and methods in the use and application of products for which VWAG may have legal responsibility; In otherwise failing to exercise due care and caution under the circumstances. Exhibit A, at ^ 23 (emphasis added). Summary judgment in favor of Plaintiffs is appropriate as to VWAG's contention in affirmative defense number 23 that Mr. Clark failed to "read warnings distributed by VWAG in connection with the sale or use of its products." VWAG admits that it never placed any warnings about asbestos on any Volkswagen vehicles, brakes, clutches or owner's manuals. Dep. Tr. of Airbert Kolms, New York City Asbestos Litigation, Jan. 29, 2004, at 67:17 - 69:22, attached as Exhibit B. VWAG's wholly owned subsidiary, Volkswagen Group of America, Inc. ("VWGoA"), also admits that it never placed any warnings about asbestos on the packaging of any Volkswagen products it distributed and never passed along any warnings about asbestos to anyone, including Volkswagen consumers. Dep. Tr. of Robert P. Cameron, Jr., Steiner v. Advance Auto Parts, et al., June 24, 2011, at 258:5-13, attached as Exhibit C; Dep. Tr. of Robert P. Cameron, Jr., Boman v. AlfalLaval, Inc., July 31, 2009, at 171:17 - 172:23, 180:8-24, attached as Exhibit D. A VWAG memorandum dated August 17, 1987, states that its asbestos-containing brake linings are "currently not labeled as `asbestos-containing' . . . no warning and safety instructions are given to the user (after sales service or private purchaser) who may be exposed to asbestos exposure." 3 Exhibit E. Finally, VWAG's corporate representative (who was deposed in this matter on April 9, 2019) admitted that, VWAG did not place any warnings on its products about the health hazards of asbestos until 1993 when it was required to do so by German regulations (approximately nine years after Plaintiff Mr. Clark last worked with a Volkswagen product). Dep. Tr. of Juergen Albers, Clark v. Borg Warner Corp., et al., April 9, 2019, at 65:24 - 66:7, 75:5-11, 128:22 - 129:1, attached as Exhibit F. VWAG's affirmative defense number 53 states as follows: Any products that contained asbestos that were designed, manufactured, distributed, sold and/or supplied or otherwise placed in the stream of commerce by VWAG were made so that the asbestos fibers were encapsulated in other material which would prevent the release of injury producing levels of such fibers based on the use of said product. Exhibit A, at ^ 53 (emphasis added). Summary judgment in favor of Plaintiffs is also appropriate as to VWAG's affirmative defense number 53. Evidence produced in this matter by VWAG shows that the asbestos fibers in its asbestos-containing products were not "encapsulated" and indeed were capable of releasing asbestos fibers at dangerous levels: A VWAG memorandum dated January 1, 1981, in reference to the "use of asbestos or asbestos-containing materials" at VWAG's production factory states that "[d]eposits of asbestos fine dust or asbestos-containing fine dust in the lungs lead to asbestosis and/or cancer." Exhibit G. A VWAG memorandum dated August 1, 1983, explains that "[r]egardless of dust measurements or structural measures taken, the following points should be noted when asbestos . . . dust occurs: . . . If despite technical and organizational measures, it cannot be achieved that the respiratory air can be sufficiently freed of . . . asbestos, respiratory protective equipment must be used." Exhibit H. A VWAG memorandum dated December 15, 1982, regarding "[a]sbestos emissions from brake lining processing machines," states that "[b]rake service workshops for trucks and buses use increasingly brake pads processing machines for over-revving of used and new brake pads, which are placed directly on the axle without disassembly of the brake shoe 4 carrier. The resulting dust contains asbestos fibers, which get into the respiratory air of the employees and, depending on the concentration and exposure time, can lead to damaging health effects. Extensive measures of dust concentrations at workplaces in brake workshops showed that the dust concentrations vary greatly depending on the work intensity, spatial and ventilation conditions as well as the type of brake pads and the processing machine . . . When blowing out brake drums, the threshold for asbestoscontaining and inert dust at the workplace are exceeded for a short period of time . . .". Exhibit I. A VWAG memorandum dated April 4, 1980, in reference to asbestos-related hazards, states that "[i]t is therefore apparent that the technical thresholds for chrysotile-containing fine dust . . . are likely to be reached or exceeded over time as a result of the work on riveting the clutch linings. Exhibit J. A VWAG memorandum dated October 31, 1988, in reference to the riveting of brake shoes, states that "[i]n the last asbestos dust measurement . . . was for the first time in years during brake shoe riveting . . . thus the threshold trigger was exceeded. Exhibit K A VWAG memorandum dated October 14, 1987, in reference to the packaging of asbestoscontaining parts, explains that in October 1987, asbestos measurements were taken in VWAG's "spare parts warehouse." Exhibit L. VWAG concluded that "the workplaces must be kept free of dust with the aid of special vacuum cleaners." Id. A VWAG memorandum dated March 18, 1980, in reference to asbestos dust concentration measurements, noted that asbestos dust concentration measurements on a brake pad grinding machine showed a fine dust content of 0.19 mg/m3. Exhibit M. A VWAG memorandum dated November 6, 2001, in reference to pollutant levels in the service station, found that asbestos dust concentration measurements were exceeded "during the blowing out of the brake drums." Exhibit N. A VWAG memorandum dated September 2, 1987, in reference to "asbestos determination in Braunschweig," noted that asbestos in fine dust was detected in correlation to grinding and riveting brake shoes. Exhibit O. A VWAG memorandum dated July 3, 1991 in reference to the measurement of asbestos in the workplace, noted that asbestos in fine dust was detected in correlation to grinding and riveting brake shoes. Exhibit P. CONCLUSION As the aforementioned evidence demonstrates, VWAG never provided warnings to Plaintiff Mr. Clark about the health hazards of asbestos. In addition, the asbestos fibers in its asbestos-containing products were not "encapsulated," as VWAG alleges, and indeed were capable 5 of releasing asbestos fibers at dangerous levels. Thus, no genuine issues of material fact exist in this regard and partial summary judgment should be entered in favor of Plaintiffs. WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs respectfully request that the Court enter partial summary judgment in Plaintiffs' favor and grant such other relief the Court deems necessary and proper. Dated: December 20, 2019. THE FERRARO LAW FIRM, P.A. David A Jagolinzer, ESQ. Attorneyfor Plaintiffs 600 Brickell Avenue, Suite 3800 Miami, Florida 33131 Telephone:(305) 375-0111 DAJ@ferrarol aw.com By:/s/ David A. Jagolinzer David A Jagolinzer, ESQ. FLORIDA BAR NO. 181153 CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE I HEREBY CERTIFY that a true and correct copy of the foregoing was served electronically on all counsel of record via Florida's eFiling Portal and electronic mail this 20thday of December, 2019. By:/s/ David A. Jagolinzer David A Jagolinzer, ESQ. FLORIDA BAR NO. 181153 6 EXHIBIT A ROBERTO. CLARK and ALANA CLARK, his wife. IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE 11 m JUDICIAL CIRCUIT, IN AND FOR MIAMI-DADE COUNTY. FLORIDA ASBESTOS LITIGATION Plaintiffs, V. CASE NO.: 14-027985 BORG WARNER CORPORATION, et a!.. Defendants. ______________________________________ l VOLKSWAGEN AG'S ANSWER AND AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSES TO PLAINTIFF'S COMPLAINT Defendant, Volkswagen AG, (hereinafter "VWAG" or "Defendant"), hereby files its .Answer and Affinnative Defenses to Plaintiffs' Complaint (hereinafter, "Complaint"), and states as follows: ANSWER 1. VWAG admits that it is a German company with its principal place of business located in Wolfsburg, Germany. All other allegations of Plaintiffs' Complaint are denied. 2. Specifically. Plaintiff, Robert G. Clark, was not exposed to and did not inhale asbestos dust or other dust from products for which this Defendant is or was responsible. 3. VWAG denies all allegations of the Complaint not specifically admitted, controverted or denied and demands strict proof thereof at trial. VWAG further denies each and every allegation and claim tor relief sought in the "Wherefore" clauses of Plaintiffs' Complaint. Gordon & Rees llp 4300 Southeast Financial Center. 200 South Biscayne Blvd, Miami. FL 33131 Telephone: 305.428.5300 AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSES 4. Plaintiffs' claims should be dismissed, because they do not comply with the Florida Asbestos & Silica Compensation Fairness Act Chapter 774, Florida Statutes (the "Act"). 5. Venue in this county is improper, either because none of the Defendants reside or conduct business in this county, or because of forum non conveniens, or none of the operative events occurred in this county or state, or in the interest of justice or otherwise, the action should be transferred to another court. 6. Plaintiff, Robert G. Clark, was neither exposed to nor used any product manufactured, sold, or supplied by VWAG. 7. VWAG specifically denies that any products manufactured, distributed or sold by it caused or contributed to the alleged damages or injuries of Plaintiff, Robert G. Clark, and further denies that it is liable to Plaintiffs for the causes alleged or for any other cause whatsoever. 8. VWAG has never mined or milled asbestos fibers. Consequently, any strict liability claims are barred by the Act. 9. VWAG was not a miner of asbestos fibers, and any alleged failure to inspect a product does not constitute an intentional wrongdoing pursuant to the Act. 10. Each and every cause of action in the Complaint is time barred by the applicable statute of limitations. The statute of limitations began to run when Plaintiffs knew or should have known that Plaintiff, Robert G. Clark, suffered from an asbestos-related illness or health condition. Gordon & Rees li.p 4300 Southeast Financial Center. 200 South Biscayne Blvd. Miami, FL 33131 Telephone: 305.428.5300 11. Each and every cause of action in the Complaint is barred by the applicable statute of repose. 12. Each and every count in the Complaint fails to state a single cause of action against VWAG. 13. This Court lacks In Personam Jurisdiction over VWAG 14. The Complaint improperly commingles allegations against all Defendants such that it is impossible for any individual Defendant to answer overly broad and vague allegations directed against all Defendants as a group. 15. VWAG asserts that if the Plaintiffs have suffered injuries or losses as alleged, they are the proximate result of negligence or wrongdoing by persons, entities, whether parties or non parties. not within VWAG's control whereby VWAG is not liable. In accordance with 768.81(3) Fla. Stat. and Fabre v. Marin. 623 So. 2d 1182 (Fla. 1993), VWAG reserves the right that these other entities or persons, whether parties or non-parties, appear on the verdict form so that a jury can apportion liability among all participants to the incidents which caused Plaintiffs' damages. VWAG seeks apportionment of any damages awarded in this case and will include some or all of the entities listed below on the jury verdict form in accordance with Nash v. Wells Fargo, 678 So. 2d 1262 (Fla. 1996). Entities that may be listed include, but are not limited to: non-Defendant employers of Mr. Clark, and non-Defendant premises owner(s) of property upon which Plaintiffs claim that Plaintiff, Robert G. Clark, was allegedly exposed to asbestos, including but not limited to John Crook Limited Dealership in Kingston, Jamaica; various dealerships in Ontario, Canada, including but not limited to East West Motors, Aero Way Motors, and Oakville Volkswagen; Melville & Drew Construction in Kingston. Jamaica; Gordon & Rees llp 4300 Southeast Financial Center, 200 South Biscayne Blvd. Miami. FL 33131 Telephone: 305.428.5300 3 Talleres Europeas, SA in Managua, Nicaragua; Compania Cervecera de Nicaragua in Managua, Nicaragua; Volkswagen South in Miami. Florida; Concrete of Medley in Miami, Florida; Milano Imported Motors in Miami, Florida; David Tate Exporting in Miami, Florida. AC&S. Inc., A. P. Green Refractories. A. W. Chesterton Company, Allied Signal. Inc., Alstom Power, Inc.. American Optical Corporation, American Optical Corp., American Standard. Inc., American Honda Motor Company, Inc., Aqua-Chem, Inc.. Armstrong International. Inc.. Armstrong World Industries. Inc., Arrow Automotive Industries. Inc., Auto Machine, Arvinmeritor. Inc., Asbestos Claims Management Corp.. Asbestos Spray Corporation, Asten, Inc., The Babcock & Wilcox Co., Bennett Auto Supply, Bctchel Corp.. Borg Warner Corporation. Borg-Warner, Inc., Bridgestone/Firestone North American Tire, LLC as successor by merger to Bridgestone/Firestone, Inc. as successor in interest to Worldbestos. Briggs Stratton Corp., Brock & Blevins Company, Inc.. Brown & Williamson Tobacco Corp., CBS Corporation. C. E. Thurston & Son, Inc.. Carlisle Companies. Inc., Caterpillar. Inc., Cafco Pipe Company, Carlisle Companies, Inc. through its subsidiaries Motion Control Industries, Inc., Certainteed Corporation f/k/a Certainteed Products Corporation, individually and as successor in interest to Bestwall Gypsum Company, Cleaver Brooks Company, Celotex Corp., Chrysler LLC, Combustion Engineering, Inc.. Combustion Engineering Corp., Congoleum Corporation, Consumer Automotive Parts. Inc., Controls Installation Company of Florida, Cooper Industries. LLC as successor in interest to Cooper Industries, Inc. and Crouse-Hinds Company i/s/h/a Cooper-Crouse Hinds Co.. Crown Cork and Seal Co.. Inc., D-O Holding Company. Inc., Dana Companies LLC f/k/a Dana Corporation. Dana Corporation d/b/a Dana Racine Corporation f/k/a Spice Manufacturing Corp., Davy McKee Lakeland, Inc.. Deere and Co. Inc., Deere and Gordon & Rees llp 4300 Southeast Financial Center. 200 South Biscavne Blvd. Miami. FI. 33131 Telephone: 305.428.5300 4 Company. Dovvman Products. Ine. Deere & Co.. Ine., Dresser, Ine., through its subdivision/business unit Waukesha Engine, Durabla Manufacturing Company. Eagle Pitcher Industries, Eaton Corporation, Farrel Birmingham, Federal-Mogul Asbestos Personal Injury Trust, as successor to Felt-Products Manufacturing Co. and successor to the former Vellumoid Division of Federal-Mogul, Federal Mogul Corporation d/b/a Wagner brake products. Fem Auto Parts, Ferro Corporation, Fireboard Corporation, Foseco, Inc., Flexitallic, Inc., Flinkote Company, Flinkote Corporation, Ford Motor Company, Foster Wheeler Energy Corporation, Frank A. McBride Company, GAF Corp., Garlock Sealing Technologies. LLC, General Electric Company, Genuine Parts Company, General Refractories Company. Genuine Parts Company. Georgia-Pacific LLC f/k/a Georgia-Pacific Corporation f/k/a Georgia Hardwood Lumber Co. t'/k/a Georgia-Pacific Plywood and Lumber Co. f/k/a Georgia-Pacific Plywood Co., individually and as successor in interest and/or parent of Bestwall Gypsum Company, Goodyear Tire and Rubber Company, Gould Pumps, Inc., Guard-Line, Inc. Harley Murray, Inc.. H. B. Fuller Company, H.K. Ferguson Company, Harbison-Walker Refractories Company, H. K. Porter Company. Inc.. Hennessy Industries. Inc., Honeywell International. Inc. f/k/a Allied Signal. Inc., individually and as successor in interest to Allied Corporation, as successor in interest to the Bendix Corporation, Independent Parts Warehouse. Inc., Indian River Construction Company, Indian River Industrial Contractors, Inc., Industrial Holdings Corporation f/k/a The Carborundum Company, Ingersoll-Rand Company, Instrument Engineering Co.. IMO Industries, Inc., Johns Manville, Johnson-Manville Corp., Johns-Manville Sales Corporation. Johns-Manville Corporation, Johnson Controls, Inc., KCG. Inc., Kaiser Aluminum. Keene Corporation. Keasby and Mattison. Kelly-Moore Paint. Co., Kelsey-Hayes. Lewis Marine Cordon & Rees llp 4300 Southeast Financial Center, 200 South Biseayne Blvd, Miami, FL. 33131 Telephone: 305.428.5300 5 Supply, Inc., The Liggett Group, Lipe Rollvvay, Lorillard Tobacco Co., M&H Automotive. Inc.. Mack Trucks, Inc.. Mahle Clevite, Inc., Maneini Automotive, Inc., Mazda Motor of America. Inc., Maremont Corporation. McCord Corporation, individually and as successor in interest to A.E. Clevite, Inc. and J.P. Industries, Inc., McKoy Helgerson Company, Inc.. Metropolitan Life Insurance, Morton International, Inc., Mitsubishi Motor's North America, Inc., Morton Int'I Transportation Corp., f/k/a International Harvester, Nissan North America, Inc., National Gypsum Company, Mundet, North Brothers. National Sendee Industries, Inc., Nicolet, Inc., Oshkosh Truck Corp., Owens-Illinois. Inc. f/k/a Owens Bottle Machine Corp. f/k/a Owens Bottle Co. f/k/a Owens-Illinois Glass Co., Owens Coming Corporation, Owens Coming Fiberglass Inc., Pacor. Inc., individually and through its division, Kenworth Trucks and Peterbilt Motors, Phillip Carey Mfg. Co., Philip Morris, Inc., Pittsburg Coming Corp.. Pfizer. Inc., Pittsburgh Coming Corporation; Pneumo Abex LLC as successor to Pneumo Abex Corporation. Power Brake Exchange, Inc., Proko Industries, Inc., Quigley Co., Inc., R&M Manufacturing Company, Rapid American Corp.. Rapid American Corporation, Raybestos Manhattan, Inc.. Raymark Industries. Inc., Rechtien International Trucks, Inc., R. J. Reynolds Tobacco Company. SEPCO Corporation, Shook and Fletcher. Steel Grip, Inc. t7k/a Industrial Gloves Co., fk/a Steel Grip Safety Apparel Co., Standard Insulation, Inc., Stradley Auto Parts, T&N Pic. Tompkins Beckwith, Inc., The Anchor Packing Company, Toyota Motor North America. Inc., Treadwell Corporation, Unarco Industries, Inc.. Union Carbide Corporation. Uniroyal. Inc., Universal Refractories, Inc., United States Gypsum, U. S. Mineral Products Co., Viacom Inc., W.W. Gay Mechanical Contractor. Westinghouse. Wheeling Brake Block Manufacturing Co., Inc.. Wheeling Brake Block Manufacturing Company, Inc., TRW Automotive. Federal Gordon & Rees llp 4300 Southeast Financial Center, 200 South Biscayne Blvd. Miami. FL 33131 Telephone: 305.428.5300 6 Mogul Corporation d/b/a Wagner Brake Products, Standard Motor Products d/b/a EIS Brake Parts, The Parts Source d/b/a Ace Auto Parts, a Florida Corporation 122. American Suzuki Motor Corporation. Discount Auto Parts. Genuine Parts Company, Fern Auto Parts. Napa Auto Parts, Mof'fet Bearings, Kennon Berrings. Millen Machine, Auto Machine, Victor Clutch, West Dixie Auto Parts, Wheeling Brake Block Manufacturing Co. Inc. Chrysler. LLC, Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A. Inc., Harley Murray, Plank Motors. Ryerson Motors. Courtland Foreign Motors, Worthington Corporation. W. R. Grace & Co., Zum Industries, Inc, Advance Stores Company, Inc., Coflax Corporation, Warren Pumps, LLC, Crane Co. individually and as successor to National-U.S. Radiator, Discount Auto Parts, Daimler Chrysler Corporation, General Motors Corporation. Western Auto Supply Company. Smurfit-Stone Container Enterprises, Inc., Alfa Laval, Inc.. Bayer Cropscience. Inc., (f/k/a Aventis Cropscience USA, Inc. f/k/a Rhone Poulenc AG Company, Inc. f/k/a Union Carbide Agricultural Products, Inc. i/k/a Amchem Products, Inc., a successor to Benjamin Foster Company). Buffalo Pumps, Inc.. Elliott Turbomachinery Co., Inc., Gardner Denver. Inc., Hardie-Tynes Co.. Inc.. Kentile Floors. Inc., Leslie Controls. Inc., Owens-Illinois, Inc. f/k/a Owens Bottle Machine Corp f/k/a Owens Bottle Co f/k/a Owens Illinois Glass Co., Nash Engineering Company, McNally Industries, Inc., Sealing Equipment Products Company, Inc., Schutte & Koerting LLC, Viad Corp. f/k/a the Dial Corporation, Individually and as successor to Griscom Russell Company, Yarway Corporation. Yeomans Chicago Corporation. BW/IP International, Inc. individually and as successor-in-interest to Byron Jackson Pumps. Cameron International Corporation f/k/a Cooper Cameron Corporation (individually and as successor-in-interest to The Cooper-Bessemer Corporation). Crane Co. (individually and as successor in interest to Chapman Valve Co. and Cochrane, Inc.). Cummins, Gordon & Rees i.lp 4300 Southeast Financial Center. 200 South Biscayne Blvd. Miami. FL 33131 Telephone: 305.428.5300 7 Inc., Honeywell Bremsbelag GmbH, d/b/a Jurid. f/k/a Allied Signal Bremsbelag GmbH, f/k/a Jurid Werke GmbH. Honeywell Deutschland GmbH, as successor in interest to Energit. Honeywell Aftermarket GmbH, and the U.S. Navy and all premises owned by it Defendant will update said Defense to the extent same becomes known during discovery. 16. Any exposure of Plaintiff. Robert G. Clark, to VWAG product(s) was so minimal as to be insufficient to establish to a reasonable degree of medical probability that such exposure to the product or products was a contributing cause of his injuries. 17. Plaintiffs. Robert G. Clark's injuries, if any. were due to the acts or omissions of persons over whom VWAG had neither control nor the right to control. Therefore, Plaintiffs are barred from recovery against VWAG. 18. VWAG is entitled to a set-off for the amount of any monies paid to Plaintiffs in settlement of claims with other parties and non-parties. 19. VWAG is entitled to a set-off from any verdict of all collateral sources of indemnity and disability benefits paid to Plaintiffs by third parties as a result of this incident. 20. Plaintiff, Robert G. Clark, willingly, knowingly and voluntarily assumed the risk of his injuries. 21. Plaintiff, Robert G. Clark's injuries, if any, were caused by his own negligent conduct, or by the negligent conduct of another and, therefore, the Plaintiffs are barred from recovery or. alternatively, barred from full recovery from VWAG. 22. If Plaintiff, Robert G. Clark, was injured or damaged, which injuries and damages are denied, the injuries and any damages were the result of intervening or superseding acts, events. Gordon & Rees llp 4300 Southeast Financial Center. 200 South Biscayne Blvd, Miami, FL 33131 Telephone: 305.428.5300 factors, occurrences or conditions which were in no way caused by VWAG and for which VWAG is not liable. 23. If Plaintiff. Robert G. Clark, either used, or was exposed to. products manufactured or supplied by VWAG. and if it is shown that such use and/or exposure is causally related to his alleged injuries and/or damages, all of which is specifically denied, then it is averred that he was himself negligent in the following particulars: In failing to use proper safety equipment, which was available to Mr. Clark: In failing to demand the proper safety equipment be supplied to Mr. Clark: In failing to read the instructions and/or warnings distributed by VWAG in connection with the sale or use of its products; By using improper techniques and methods in the use and application of products for which VWAG may have legal responsibility; In otherwise failing to exercise due care and caution under the circumstances. 24. Plaintiff. Robert G. Clark's injuries and damages, if any. proximately resulted from the negligence of fellow servants employed in the course of common employment and, thus, the Plaintiffs are barred from recovery. 25. The products and materials in question were abused, misused and improperly used by Plaintiff, Robert G. Clark, or others not under VWAG's control and, by reason thereof, the Plaintiffs are barred from recovery from VWAG. 26. The Plaintiffs are barred from recovery for damages, if any, by the exclusive liability provisions of the workers' compensation law of the State of Florida or any other applicable jurisdiction. 27. The Plaintiffs' claims are barred, in whole or in part, because the products distributed and sold by VWAG conformed with available technological, medical, scientific and industrial state-of-the-art at all material times (see Fla. Stat. 768.1257), Gordon & Rees i.lp 4300 Southeast Financial Center. 200 South Biscayne Blvd, Miami. FL 33131 Telephone: 305.428.5300 9 28. VWAG reasonably relied upon the sophisticated employers of Plaintiff, Robert G. Clark, and is not responsible for the failure of said employers to warn or take proper precautions with regard to the use of such products. 29. The products in question were changed, altered or modified after they left VWAG's control and such change, alteration or modification was the legal cause of the Plaintiffs' damages, if any. 30. Plaintiff, Robert G. Clark, knew of the existence of the danger complained of in the Complaint, realized and appreciated the possibility of injury as a result of the danger, and having reasonable opportunity to avoid it. voluntarily exposed himself to said danger. 31. Any sales or distribution of asbestos-containing products, if any, by VWAG were made to sophisticated users and purchasers who were fully aware of the risks, if any, and any characteristics associated with such products. Any claims of liability by the Plaintiffs against VWAG are. therefore, barred as a matter of law. 32. If Plaintiff, Robert G. Clark, was exposed and/or injured as a result of his use of or exposure to any product of VWAG. Plaintiffs' claims are barred because any such product was manufactured, produced or sold in strict conformity to the specifications furnished by his employers, premises owners, contractor, lessees, or any governmental entity. 33. The Plaintiffs' action is barred, in whole or in part, in that the products manufactured or distributed by VWAG were manufactured or distributed in accordance with local, state and federal statutes, regulations, and governmental specifications and standards, and said government entities had actual or constructive knowledge with regard to the alleged hazards of Gordon & Rf.es i.i.p 4300 Southeast Financial Center. 200 South Biscayne Blvd. Miami, FL 33131 Telephone: 305.42S.5300 10 the products. Said products are accordingly not detective or unreasonably dangerous (see Fla. Stat. 768.1256). 34. Although VWAG denies that Plaintiffs are entitled to recover any damages, any recovery for any injuries or damages alleged by Plaintiffs are limited by Fla. Stat. 768.21. 35. Any product or equipment sold or delivered to the initial purchaser or user complied with all federal or state codes, statutes, rules, regulations or standards relevant to the Plaintiffs' claims, including, without limitation, OSHA regulations, and United States Government regulations, which were all designed to protect the health of workers and users and were specified by said organizations. 36. To the extent Plaintiffs assert that VWAG failed to give adequate warnings about its products, such claims are preempted by federal regulations, including those promulgated by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration. 37. The number of different agents to which Plaintiff, Robert G. Clark, was exposed in and out of the workplace, and the lack of definitive evidence as to the amount of actual exposure to each agent, makes it impossible to determine, to a requisite degree of legal certainty, the alleged causal connection, if any, between his injuries and said agents. 38. To the extent that Plaintiffs are relying upon a theory of market share liability to support Plaintiffs' strict liability claim, this count should be dismissed because the theory of market share liability does not apply. 39. The Plaintiffs have failed to join indispensable parties as Defendants in this action. 40. If Plaintiffs have filed lawsuits in other jurisdictions against some or all of the same Defendants, Plaintiffs are precluded from seeking double recovery. Gordon & Rees llp 4300 Southeast Financial Center. 200 South Biscayne Blvd. Miami, FL 33131 Telephone: 305.42S.5300 11 41. If Plaintiffs have tiled or sought to collect or collected sums for Plaintiff. Robert G. Clark's alleged exposure to asbestos. Plaintiffs are precluded from seeking double recovery. 42. To the extent that it is learned that the Plaintiffs have released, settled, or otherwise compromised their claims with VWAG, the Plaintiffs' claims are barred. 43. Defendants cannot be held jointly and severally liable. 44. Plaintiff Robert G. Clark, was not exposed to any products of VWAG and there is no connection between VWAG's business activities in Florida, if any, and the alleged injuries. 45. If any defect existed in the design or manufacture of the subject unidentified product or its component parts which allegedly forms the basis of this lawsuit, all of which is specifically denied, then such product or its component parts were not in the same condition as when they left the custody or control of VWAG, substantial changes or alterations having been made thereto, which changes or alterations were the proximate cause of any defective condition or conditions, thus barring or reducing proportionally all claims for damages against VWAG. 46. The design of the unidentified product which allegedly forms the basis of this lawsuit was reasonably safe as measured by the risk utility analysis set forth in the Restatement (Third) ofTorts. 47. VWAG has been prejudiced in its defense to the extent the evidence in this case has been destroyed or altered by others. 48. The Complaint fails to comply with the pleading requirements of the Florida Rules of Civil Procedure and the product identification requirements of Florida law. The Complaint and the causes of action pled therein fail to identity VWAG as the manufacturer, distributor, user or retailer of any injury-causing products. Nor does it properly identify any particular product of Gordon & Rees llp 4300 Southeast Financial Center, 200 South Biseayne Blvd, Miami. FL 33131 Telephone: 305.428.5300 12 VWAG to which Plaintiff, Robert G. Clark, was allegedly exposed or the specific date, location, or duration of such exposure. 49. Tlie Plaintiffs have tailed to state a cause of action for negligence. The Complaint fails to state a cause of action for negligence in that it fails to allege the circumstances, if any. whereby Plaintiff. Robert G. Clark, used VWAG product(s). Specifically, it fails to allege facts sufficient to establish a duty or breach thereof by VWAG which proximately resulted in any injuries to Plaintiff, Robert G. Clark. Furthermore, by not identifying the particular products of VWAG to which Plaintiff. Robert G. Clark, was allegedly exposed, it fails to state a cause of action for negligence under Florida law. 50. Florida law does not recognize a duty on the part of a product manufacturer, distributor, or supplier to control the work environment in which its product might be used, to provide or warn of the need for wearing protective equipment, to offer post sale warnings and advice, or to publish, adopt, and enforce a safety plan and a safe method of handling and installing asbestos materials. 51. The Plaintiffs have failed to state a cause of action for strict liability. The Complaint fails to allege sufficient ultimate facts to identify a specific product and to establish the relationship of VWAG to any specific product. Furthermore, it fails to allege specific ultimate facts to establish an allegedly defective and unreasonably dangerous condition of any product allegedly manufactured, distributed or sold by VWAG, specifically, the nature of the defects and when the product left VWAG's control. Finally, it fails to allege ultimate facts, as opposed to broad generalizations, to establish the existence of any proximate causal connection between Gordon & Rees llp 4300 Southeast Financial Center, 200 South Biscayne Blvd, Miami, FL 33131 Telephone: 305.428.5300 13 the alleged defect and any product manufactured or sold by VWAG, and to the alleged injuries or damages. 52. Plaintiff. Robert G. Clark, failed to mitigate his damages by seeking employment within his limitations or by following the reasonable medical advice and treatment reeommended by his healthcare providers. 53. Any products that contained asbestos that were designed, manufactured, distributed, sold and/or supplied or otherwise placed in the stream of commerce by VWAG were made so that the asbestos fibers were encapsulated in other material which would prevent the release of injury producing levels of such fibers based on the use of said product. 54. Any products that contained asbestos that were designed, manufactured, distributed, sold and/or supplied or otherwise placed in the stream of commerce by VWAG could not have contributed to Plaintiff, Robert G. Clark's disease. 55. The Plaintiffs have failed to state a cause of action for Loss of Consortium. 56. VWAG asserts and relies upon any and all prior orders of this Court dismissing and/or striking claims in asbestos-related personal injury cases similar to the claims alleged in the Complaint, and any other Complaint filed by counsel in this litigation. 57. VWAG adopts each and every other affirmative defense filed by any other Defendant in this action. 58. VWAG reserves the right to amend its Answer and Affirmative Defenses if investigation, discovery, further information, or the development of any applicable matters of law warrants such amendment during the pendency of this action. Gordon & Rf.es li.p 4300 Southeast Financial Center. 200 South Biscayne Blvd, Miami. FL 33131 Telephone: 305.428.5300 14 Respectfully submitted. By: /s/ Ari C. Shapiro_______________ Ari Shapiro Florida Bar No. 0183253 Daniel A. Garcia Florida Bar No. 0194130 GORDON & REES, LLP 200 South Biscayne Blvd.. Suite 4300 Miami, Florida 33131 Tel: (305) 428-5300 Fax (877) 634-7245 ashaniro@iuordonrees.com daniel.uarcia@uordonrees.com Attorneys for Volkswagen AG CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE WE HEREBY CERTIFY that a true and correct copy of the foregoing has filed via EPortal and has been delivered via File & ServeXpress to all counsel of record on this 10th day of February, 2015. /s/ Ari C. Shapiro Ari Shapiro Daniel A. Garcia 101697.*23164025V I Gordon & Rees llp r, 200 South Biscayne Blvd. Miami. FL 33131 Telephone: 305.428.5300 15 EXHIBIT B Airbert Kolms Voi. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos 1 SUPREME COURT: ALL COUNTIES WITHIN THE STATE OF NEW YORK 2 3 IN RE: NEW YORK CITY ASBESTOS LITIGATION 4 DEPOSITION UPON This Document Applies To: ORAL EXAMINATION 5 OF THOMAS WALL AIRBERT KOLMS 6 7 8 9 10 11 T R A N S C R I P T of the deposition of 12 AIRBERT KOLMS, called for Oral Examination in the above 13 entitled action, said deposition being taken pursuant to 14 Rules governing Civil Practice in the Courts of New York, 15 by and before KERRY D. HALPERN, a Notary Public and 16 Shorthand Reporter of the State of New York, at HERZFELD & 17 RUBIN, P.C., 40 Wall Street, New York, New York 10005, on 18 Thursday, January 29, 2004, commencing at 11:05 a.m. 19 20 21 22 23 Priority-One Court Reporting Services 899 Manor Road 24 Staten Island, New York 10314 (718) 983-1234 25 ".1" Airbert*EColms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 2 1 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED 2 by and between the attorneys for the respective parties 3 hereto that filing, sealing and certification of the 4 within Examination Before Trial be waived; that all 5 objections, except as to form, are reserved to the time of 6 trial. 7 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED 8 that the transcript may be signed before any Notary Public 9 with the same force and effect as if signed before a Clerk 10 or Judge of the Court. 11 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED 12 that the within examination may be utilized for all 13 purposes as provided by the CPLR. 14 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED 15 that all rights provided to all parties by the CPLR shall 16 not be deemed waived and the appropriate sections of the 17 CPLR shall be controlling with respect thereto. 18 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED by and 19 between the attorneys for the respective parties hereto 20 that a copy of this Examination shall be furnished, 21 without charge, to the attorney representing the witness 22 testifying herein. 23 24 25 1 INDEX 2 WITNESS: AIRBERTKOLMS 3 EXAMINATION PAGE 4 Mr. Fox 5, 186 5 Mr, Grasso 182,195 6 7 EXHIBITS: PLAINTIFFS 8 NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE 9 10 11 QUESTIONS WITNESS INSTRUCTED NOT TO ANSWER: 12 PAGE LINE 13 78-9 14 15 INFORMATION TO BE SUPPLIED: 16 PAGE LINE 17 ... 18 144-25 . 147-6 19 20 MOVE TO STRIKE: 21 PAGE LINE 22 89 - 11 23 24 Page 4 ! ' 1 APPEARANCES: 2 FORTHE PLAINTIFFS THOMAS AND RUTH WALL: 3 BELLUCK & FOX LLP BY: JORDAN FOX, ESQ. 4 295 Madison Avenue 37th Floor 5 New York, New York 10017 6 FOR THE DEFENDANT VOLKSWAGEN: 7 HERZFELD & RUBIN, P.C. 8 BY: CARL GRASSO, ESQ. BY: CHARLES E. FINBERG, ESQ. 9 40 Wall Street New York, New York 10005 10 . 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 - 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 3 Page 5 | ' , ' 1 1 AIRBERT KOLMS, 2 having first been duly sworn, was 3 examined and testified as follows; 4 ' | 5 EXAMINATION j 6 BY MR. FOX: 7 Q. Good morning, Mr. Kolms. 8 A. Good morning. 9 Q. My name is Jordan Fox. 1represent Thomas 10 and Ruth Wall in this matter, and I am going to welcome j 11 you to the deposition. 12 MR. GRASSO: I am curious. Is any i 13 defendant other than us going to make any j 14 sort of appearance here? j 15 MR. FOX: Apparently not. They have j 16 chosen not to be here, and frankly I am not 17 surprised by that. j 18 MR. GRASSO: You are not expecting | 19 anyone to call on the phone? | 20 MR. FOX: No. The case has been j 21 largely resolved except for Volkswagen AG j 22 and a couple o f other defendants. j 23 This was scheduled to go to trial j 24 and we brought Volkswagen in late. j 25 MR. GRASSO: Yes, you did. j --------- .----------- -------------------------------- 2 (Pages 2 to 5) Airbft Kolms Voi. No. January 29, 2004 Wall V, Asbestos Page 6 Page 8 1 MR. FOX: And, therefore, you guys 2 remain in the case as one of the few 3 remaining defendants. 4 And also just as a back up to the 5 deposition today, we had received a few 6 days ago the Volkswagen's Answers to 7 Standard Set of Liability Interrogatories 8 and Request for Production of documents. 9 I have written back to counsel for 10 Volkswagen outlining the area that in my 11 view they were deficient in producing 12 documents and information to us that were 13 in our view critical and necessary to the 14 prosecution of this case. 15 I have had conversation with 16 Mr. Grasso where we have talked about it. 17 But, to a large extent this deposition is 18 proceeding, but it is difficult, if not 19 inpossible, for us to be able to proceed. 20 But, we are going to do it anyway and, of 21 course, in the event that there is an 22 amendment, and additional documents and 23 information provided to the plaintiffs, we 24 will reserve our rights to continue this 25 deposition as necessary. 1 in the case when the special master's order 2 indicated that, these things - obviously, 3 VWAG had no part in negotiations of these 4 things. Frankly, when it comes down to it 5 VWAG is deprived to due process o f law 6 being subjected to an order before even in 7 the case which sounds to me somewhat - 8 MR. FOX: You can make your - 9 MR. GRASSO: Again, I think -- 10 MR. FOX: --argument. 11 MR GRASSO: --these sort of things 12 can be worked out on a reasonable basis. 13 MR FOX: You can make your 14 arguments to the judge. The order applies 15 to every defendant in this litigation as 16 well as plaintiff whether or not they 17 negotiated the initial case. 18 MR. GRASSO: They apply to 19 defendants, even those that have not been 20 served? 21 MR. FOX: Rules are important. Let's just 22 23 MR GRASSO: Please proceed. 24 MR. FOX: Thank you. 25 Q. Where do you live, what country? Page 7 Page 1 MR. GRASSO: Not to burden the 2 record too much, we believe that the 3 interrogatories, which are Standard Set, 4 they obviously are way overbroad as 5 pertains to this particular defendant, 6 which has a specific sort of exposure 7 which, frankly, seems rather unique in any 8 experience. It may well be unique in your, 9 Mr. Fox, and I had agreed to go forward 10 with the deposition, and see how we do. 11 If there are other problems, we will 12 try and work them out as we go. If not, 13 they will be subject to discussion. 14 MR FOX: Not to burden the record 15 any further, but there is directive -- 16 there is a clarifying memorandum directive 17 that all questions have to be asked and 18 answered for all products without 19 objection, and that is from her, a 20 directive clarifying what is in the case 21 management order. There is really no issue 22 in the special master's order other than it 23 has to get done. 24 MR. GRASSO: Then, I have to make a 25 statement simply since we were not largely 1 A. Germany. 2 Q. What part of Germany do you live in? 3 A. Northern part. The city I live in is 4 Braunschweig. 5 Q- How do you spell that? 6 A. B-R-A-U-N-S-C-H-W-E-I-G. You would 7 pronounce it Brunswick properly. 8 Q. You would want to stick with the former 9 one. It sounds better than Brunswick We think of other 10 places when we think of Brunswick. 11 (Discussion held off the record). 12 Q. So, who are you employed by? 13 A. By Volkswagen AG. 14 Q. What is your position? 15 A. My position is best described as safety test 16 engineer. 17 Q. How long have you been a safety test 18 engineer for? 19 A. Since I started with Volkswagen. 20 Q. When was that? 21 A. August '73. 22 Q. So, you had the same title since you began 23 for 30 years? 24 A. Basically, yes. 25 Q. Today, or this period of time in 2004, what . . . . 3 (Pages 6 to 9) A Airbert Kolms Voi. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 10 1 are your duties in terms o f being a safety test engineer? 2 A. Well, it has changed a little bit from what 3 I was starting out with which was actually testing 4 vehicles in compliance test to safety standards, motor 5 safety standards. 6 Nowadays, I am kind of supervising test 7 engineers as well as educating young engineers in safety 8 matters. 9 Q. And how much - what role, if any, do you 10 have in Volkswagen ~ do you mind if 1call it VWAG for 11 the purposes of this deposition? 12 MR. GRASSO: VWAG as shorthand? 13 MR. FOX: Yes. 14 Q. What role do you now play in any litigation 15 that VWAG is involved? 16 A. Well, as far as any technical assistance 17 needed by the attorneys, I am the person who will provide 18 the necessary assistance to get to technical matters. 19 Q. S o - 20 MR. GRASSO: So, we don't have a 21 lag, are you the only guy in VWAG who does 22 this for all litigation against VWAG? 23 WITNESS: No. 24 MR. FOX: Okay. 25 Q. How much of your time in 2003 was spent on. Page 12 1 A. In other countries. 2 Q. In times you have been involved in 3 litigation, but in litigation related to the United 4 States? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Of the 20,25 times that you have testified 7 has that been at trial, or at deposition, or both, what 8 does that reflect? 9 A. Your question was related to testify only in 10 court? 11 Q. Yes. 12 A. This was strictly in court. 13 Q. So, how many times have you been deposed 14 outside of a courtroom setting? 15 A. Maybe 30,40 times. I am not sure about it. 16 Q. Do you have - do you maintain a list of the 17 times that you have testified? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Does anybody that you know of retain alist 20 of the times that you testified? 21 A Well, you have to ask my attorneys. They 22 may have. 23 Q. Okay.Do you get copies of your testimony 24 at - 25 A. Usually, yes. Page 11 1 litigation-related matters, approximately? 2 A. Approximately 50 percent. 3 Q. How much was spent actually working as a 4 safety test engineer? 5 A. The rest of it. 6 Q Other than litigation-related activities, 7 and other than being a safety test engineer, and 8 mentioning the education part of it, do you have any other 9 responsibilities for VWAG? 10 A. No. . 11 Q. And have you testified in a court of law 12 before? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q- How many times, approximately? 15 A. Well, I have - approximately 20,25 times. 16 Q. Okay. And in how many countries? 17 A. In this country only. 18 Q. Okay. Are you assigned only to work with 19 lawyers in the United States in terms of litigation? 20 A. No. I am assigned generally to where that 21 kind of work, if it comes up, to give some technical 22 assistance. 23 Q- It is not restricted to the United States? 24 A. It hasn't occurred yet. 25 Q. It hasn't? Page 13 1 Q. What do you do with it? 2 A. I review die transcript, and if there is 3 some change to be added or ~ you know, I do a correction i 4 sheet, and sign both, and send it back to the attorneys. \ 5 Q. Do you maintain a copy for yourself? 6 A. Usually, yes. 7 Q. So, you have a library of testimony that you 8 have given? . 9 A. No. 10 Q. What do you do with it? . 11 A. Destroy them. 12 Q- You destroy them? . 13 A. After a while when the case is closed, there 14 is no need to keep them for all the time. You know, the ; 15 attorneys do it. ; 16 Q. Right now, how many depositions do you think 1 17 that you have of your prior testimony either in deposition / 18 or at trial? ' 19 A. I discarded everything so far. L 20 Q- So, nothing? 21 A. Nothing. ' 22 Q- Do you have them on disk or anything 23 maintained on disk anywhere? , 24 A No. j 25 Q. Of the 20, 25 times that you testified at ; 4 (Pages 10 to 13) Airbeit Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbest Page 14 1 trial and 30 to 40 times that you testified by deposition, 2 how many of those, if at all, related to any issue 3 regarding asbestos? 4 A. Two depositions. 5 Q. Let's start with those. 6 Where were those taken? 7 A. One was taken in Chicago and the other one 8 here at this office. 9 Q. Okay. Do you recall the plaintiffs law 10 firm that took your deposition in Chicago? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Do you recall the name of the plaintiff in 13 Chicago? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. What is that name? 16 A. Hinkledey. 17 Q. Hinkledey? 18 A. H-LN-K-L-E-D-E-Y. 19 Q. Thank you. 20 And New York, do you recall? 21 A. Novo. 22 Q. Novo? 23 A. N-O-V-O. 24 Q. Do you recall who the law firm is that 25 examined you during that deposition? Page 16 1 Q. Okay. Since you completed the correction 2 sheet, is there anything about that deposition that you 3 think is incorrect that you stated that you know of? 4 A. Well, I have not reviewed precisely the Novo 5 depo yet because the case was somehow, you know, settled. 6 Q. All right. Is there anything that you have 7 learned about Volkswagen brake linings and clutch facings 8 over the past two years that you were not aware of in 2001 9 when you gave the deposition in New York? 10 A. I have no reason to exactly pinpoint to one 11 or another field of expertise. There is always a learning 12 process if you are dealing with that matter. 13 Q. Just, is there anything that comes to your 14 mind in terms of something that you learned in the last 15 two years about Volkswagen brakes and clutches that you 16 did not know when you gave those depositions? 17 A. No. Not that I know of. 18 Q. All right. What did you do to prepare for 19 this testimony today, if anything? 20 A. Well, I have partly read Mr. Wall's depo 21 and, you know, just glanced at it. More precisely, 1was 22 reading the first section of it where he describes his 23 employment at the shipyard and with Volkswagen OA, and I 24 reviewed Volkswagen's Answers to Interrogatories and I 25 have a notice of examination before trial before me, so it Page 15 1 A. I don't recall the name. 2 Q. Other than testifying about asbestos in 3 those two depositions, did any of your testimony at trial 4 or at deposition relate to brake pads or clutch facings? 5 A. No. 6 Q. All right. The deposition that you gave in 7 Chicago, do you recall the issue or issues that you 8 testified about in that case? 9 A. Generally about asbestos metals, brake 10 linings. 11 Q. In New York, do you recall what the issues 12 were? 13 A. The same. 14 Q. Do you recall when the deposition was in 15 Chicago? 16 A. A couple of years ago, '98,1guess. About 17 that time. 18 Q. And New York? 19 A. Two years ago, 2001. 20 Q. Reflecting back on those two depositions, is 21 there anything that you testified about that you recall in 22 those depositions that you would want to change? 23 A, The matter of fact that I have at that time 24 reviewed the depo in the Hinkleday case and have supplied 25 a correction sheet, which I didn't have in the Novo case. Page 17 1 is basically my file. 2 Q. And when you reviewed the VWAG's Answers to 3 Interrogatories and document requests, did you notice 4 anything in there that you believed was not correct? 5 A. No. 6 Q. When you said that you read the Wall 7 deposition in part, were you provided the entire 8 transcript or were you provided excerpts fromthe 9 transcript? 10 A. The entire transcript. 11 Q. How much of that deposition did you read? 12 A. Maybe a third. 13 Q. Were you provided one day or more than one 14 day of transcripts? 15 A. More than one day. 16 Q. Did you watch a videotape of him? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Did you create any notes in preparation for 19 this deposition? 20 A. No. 21 Q. All right. After reading Mr. Wall's 22 testimony, did you have any reaction to his testimony in 23 terms of his statements regarding his work at VW U.S.A.? 24 MR. GRASSO: Any reaction, I don't 25 quite understand. r_-------------- - 75^vF7!7:i'i 5 (Pages 14 to 17) * Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 18 1 Could you clarify that? . 2 Q. Sure. After reading parts of his testimony, 3 what was your response as a safety engineer, safety 4 testing engineer, to his testimony? 5 MR. GRASSO: His response? 6 MR. FOX: Yes. 7 Q. Did you have any reason to believe that it 8 was not credible? 9 A. He was describing his work as either 10 the person who was packaging and used brake shoes to have 11 them sent out and replaced by new ones and he was 12 describing his work at the shipyard where -- this really 13 touches my understanding of safety. He was using his 14 hands in removing asbestos insulation from pipes and 15 stuff, so this was, what 1claim it was, not proper to do. 16 Q. Are you talking at the shipyard? 17 A. Yes. At the shipyard, yes. There was 18 certainly a protection available, you know, in that type 19 of work. 20 Q. At the shipyard? 21 A. Yes. I think so. 22 Q. Are you -- 23 A. The respiratory protection or mask, so. 24 Q. Are you talking about his work on ships? 25 A. Yes. Page 20 | 1 Q. No. There was nothing there that led you to j 2 believe that he was not telling the truth? 3 A. I have no reason to say so. 4 Q. Do you have - do you recall what facility 5 he worked at? | 6 A. Excseme? j 7 Q. Do you recall what facility he worked for 8 Volkswagen O.A.? 9 A. The distribution center in Wilmington. 10 Q, Were you ever there? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Do you know whether or not anybody has any 1 13 photographs of that particular location fromback in the 1 14 '60s and '70s? 1 15 A. I don't know. 1 16 Q. Did you talk to anybody, other than your jf 17 counsel for VWAG, in preparation for this deposition? | 18 A. No, sir. I 19 Q, Did you ever have any personal contact with 1 20 the facility in Massachusetts that Mr. Wall worked for 21 VWoA? j 22 A. No, sir. I 23 Q. Did you make any effort to determine if f 24 anybody presently at VWAG had any personal contact in the I 25 past with that facility? 1 Page 19 1 Q. Are you a Navy expert? 2 A. No, no. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. You were asking me about my feeling as in 5 safety test engineer. 6 Q. But, you are not an expert in naval 7 engineering, are you, sir? 8 A. No, sir. 9 Q. And you don't know whether or not there were 10 masks available in the ships that he worked on, do you, 11 sir? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Okay. So, I want to ask you, not about his 14 ship experience because I know that you are not an expert 15 in those affairs. I want to ask you about his work in 16 Volkswagen O.A. 17 Was there anything about his testimony that 18 led you to believe that anything that he testified about 19 was not credible or true? 20 A. No. 21 MR. GRASSO: Well, so this is clear, 22 I mean, Mr. Kolms said he didn't read all 23 of the testimony. 24 Q. That which you read? 25 A. Yes --no. | Page 21 1 A. No. 2 Q. Would there be a way to do something like j 3 that? | 4 A. Probably not at Volkswagen AG. 1 5 Q. Okay. Why is that? : 6 A, Because Volkswagen AG is the manufacturer of 7 the vehicles and has nothing to do with the distribution 8 of the parts over here in the States. : 9 Q. Do you know whether or not VWAG maintains 10 records that date back to the '60s and early '70s? ' 11 MR. GRASSO: That is way broad. ; 12 What kinds of records? 13 Q. Correspondence, sales records, distribution . 14 records, things like that? i 15 A. At AG? } 16 Q. Yes. 17 A. I don't think so. 18 Q. Do they have a policy, a records retention 19 policy? 20 A. Safety related documents are being kept for , 21 ten years and an internal policy is 15 years. 1 22 Q. So, safety policy is ten years? i 23 A. Yes. That is the requirement. 24 Q. And 15 years is? . 25 A, Is the internal policy. 6 (Pages 18 to 21) Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 22 1 Q. Internal policy? 2 A. Documentation period. 3 MR. GRASSO: When you say "safety 4 policy," for ten years? 5 MR. FOX: Safety records, he said. 6 A. Safety records or records related to 7 safety-related parts. 8 Q. Do you know how long that ten-year policy 9 has been in place? 10 A. No, 11 Q. Is there somebody at VWAG whose only 12 responsibility is to maintain records? 13 MR. GRASSO: Well, again, you know, 14 how many kinds of records are we talking 15 about? 16 There's millions of kinds of 17 records. 1 could imagine some people spend 18 their lives on one. 19 Q. Is there anybody who is in charge of sales 20 records? 21 A. lam not into sales, so I don't know. 22 Q. Okay. Is there any kind of historian at 23 Volkswagen AG? 24 MR. GRASSO: Somebody with the title 25 historian? Page 24 1 car? 2 MR. FOX: The actual car, yes. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Do you have any reason to believe that the 5 cars in the museums have or do not have the original 6 brakes and clutches that would have been on those cars 7 originally? 8 MR. GRASSO: When I say 9 "originally," you are talking about 10 originally when it rolled off the assembly 11 line? 12 MR. FOX: Yes. 13 MR. GRASSO: As opposed to what was 14 added to the car when it was originally in 15 the museum? 1 16 MR. FOX: Yes. 17 A. I don't know. 1 18 Q. Let's take a step back. I want to get back 1 19 into your background. I know we have kind of gone astray 20 here. I want to bring you back to that now? | 21 A. Yes. 1 22 Q. When you first started at VWAG, were you at 1 23 Wolfsburg at that time? j 24 A. I was. 1 25 Q. Were you in Wolfsburg when you started in | Page 23 1 MR. FOX: Yes. 2 A. Never heard of anybody. 3 Q. Never heard of anybody? 4 A. Right. . 5 Q. Is there a museum? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Where is that located? 8 A In Wolfsburg. 9 Q. Do you know if historical records are kept 10 at the museum? 11 A. I can guess, yes. 12 Q. Would you be familiar with the inventory of 13 those records? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Do you know who the person is who would be? 16 A. No. 17 Q. At the museum, are there models of cars? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And do you know if any of the -- those models 20 of cars present at the museum are cars that were 21 manufactured in the mid-to late '60s? 22 A. Yes. 23 MR. GRASSO: When you say "models of 24 cars," are you talking about a --little 25 models you sit on a table or the actual Page 25 f 1 1973? | 2 A. Yes. | 3 Q. What was your background before you went to I 4 VWAG? I 5 A. I studied mechanical engineering at the f 6 Technical University in Braunschweig, and have a master's | 7 degree and still have from that institute. | 8 Q. Masters in? { 9 A. Mechanical engineering. Actually, * 10 automotive engineering. I was specializing in automotive 1 11 engineering. 12 Q. AH right. So, you actually have a masters 13 in automotive engineering? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q, Can you explain to me the kinds of courses I 16 somebody would take to be given the masters in automotive 17 engineering? | 18 A. Well, it is a study --well, it depends on | 19 how many special courses you take. But, it is about an f 20 eight-year education at the university level, and it ? 21 starts with basic sciences, like, chemistry, physics and : 22 mathematics, and then goes into automotive-related field 23 as to construction and evaluation, calculation of t 24 vehicle-related related issues. j 25 Q, Now, when was the first time that you ever i 1 7 (Pages 22 to 25) Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 26 1 did a brake j ob, if at all? 2 A. A brake job? 3 Q. Yes. 4 A. Well, that is long ago. I mean, usually as 5 a young boy you are interested in taking the stuff, so I 6 can't exactly tell you when it was, but it was early. 7 Q. So, when you were in your teens. Is that 8 fair to say? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Have you ever done a brake job on a 11 Volkswagen car? 12 A. Oh, yes. 13 Q. Did you do that when you were a teen as well 14 or was that later on in life? 15 A. When? 16 Q. Did you do a brake job on a Volkswagen car 17 when you were a teen or was that later on in your life? 18 A. I mean, at any time in my life, I was 19 working on cars with friends. 20 Q. Volkswagen's? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. So, you think you did brake jobs on 23 Volkswagen's as a teenager? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Did you do brake jobs on Volkswagen's when Page 28 1 disc brake. 2 He was talking about drums. 3 Now, you are talking about a lining. 4 Answer the best you can, if you 5 can. 6 A. Well, I didn't remove the lining. 7 Q. Okay. Have you ever removed any brake 8 lining on any Volkswagen car? 9 A. No. 10 MR. GRASSO: Well, you are talking 11 about removing a lining, you are talking 12 about removing it from the brake or taking 13 14 A. From the brake shoe? 15 Q. Yes. 16 A. From the brake shoe, we have the brake shoe 17 covered by or the lining is attached on top of it. j 18 Q. Okay. | 19 A. My answer is, no. 20 Q. Have you ever seen it done? 21 MR. GRASSO: Removing a lining from 22 a brake shoe, have you ever seen that done? 23 A. I don't recall. 24 Q. How about a clutch facing, have you ever 25 remove4 a clutch facing from a Volkswagen? | Page 27 1 you were in school getting your masters, do you know? 2 A. Yes. I was part time working with a plumber 3 company, and I specifically was taking care of the 4 vehicles. 5 Q. So, can you just describe for me when you 6 were getting your masters and doing brakejobs on 7 Volkswagen's the process that you used to do that brake 8 job? 9 A. Well, you know, you have to take off the 10 wheel with the drum, and then you get into inner structure 11 of the brake system where the brake shoes are attached to 12 the back plate, and where, you know, take off the brake 13 shoes, exchange them with the ones that you have somewhere 14 bought or you have been supplied with by your boss, and 15 put it on, andreverse the entire installation putting on 16 the drum, and wheel, and that is it. 17 First, you have to naturally adjust the 18 brake system to the brake drum, but then it is all the 19 reverse of the brake drum and the wheel. 20 Q. How would you remove the brake pad when you 21 were doing one of thesejobs? 22 MR. GRASSO: You said "brake pad." 23 Q. Brake lining. 24 MR. GRASSO: Well, I am a little 25 confused here. Brake pad to me is lining a Page 2" 1 A. No. | 2 Q. Have you have seen it done? 3 A. I know how it works. f 4 Q. Have you ever seen it done? | 5 A. I personally have done it on a Fiat because | 6 as a young kid I had a Fiat vehicle, and I have done | 7 myself, but other -- 8 Q. None on a Volkswagen? 9 A. No. 10 Q. All right. Now, when you were getting your : 11 masters, do you recall any discussion about the use of ; 12 asbestos in either the brake linings or clutch facings? 13 A. No. ; 14 Q. Did you know when you were getting your 15 masters that brake linings and clutch facings had asbestos 16 as a component part? | 17 A. Not at that time. : 18 Q. When did you first learn that asbestos was a 19 component part of brake linings and clutch facings? 20 A. I mean, to a wide degree only in the recent j 21 couple of years. \ 22 Q. So, now, we are back to your first days at 23 Volkswagen, okay? 24 A. Okay. j 25 Q. During the first, say, few years at Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 30 1 Volkswagen, VWAG, I am sorry, what kinds of projects did 2 you work on? 3 A. The main projects were compliance testing 4 with motor safety standards and other tests which have to 5 be done or had to be done in connection with prototypes, 6 prototype development. 7 Q. Were you assigned to a particular type of 8 car? Did it work like that? 9 A. It was related to the multipurpose vehicle. 10 Q. The multipurpose vehicle? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. So, for how many years were you working on 13 the multipurpose vehicles? 14 A. Well, still. My duty hasn't changed that 15 much except for the last recent years I have more a 16 supervisoryjob in my division as to the safety testing. 17 Q. So - 18 A. But, I have done it all my life with 19 Volkswagen. 20 Q. Now, when you say you are working on the 21 multipurpose vehicles, does that mean that you were 2 2 working on the multipurpose vehicles to the exclusion of 2 3 the other vehicles manufactured by VWAG? 24 A. As far as the safety testing is concerned, 2 5 yes. Page 32 1 choices. 2 A. This is the bug-shaped multipurpose vehicle 3 which has up to nine seats or you can move out seats and 4 transport cargo, so it was a sliding door, two doors in 5 front, basically, a bus-shaped vehicle. 6 Q. When you first got to VWAG, did you have j 7 anything to do with the specification of the brakes and 8 clutches on any VWAG vehicle? j 9 A. What do you mean specification? j 10 Q. How the brakes and clutches themselves were 11 manufactured or the component parts of the brakes and ji 12 clutches. | 13 A. Well, myjob was basically related to safety 14 testing which means I had test to according to brake ! 15 testing standards, f 16 Q. Okay. So, you would test whether or not the i 17 brakes and the clutches basically were defective? 18 A. Yes. | 19 Q. And if they met standards? : 20 A. Performance. You said, brakes and 21 clutches? 22 Q. Was it brakes and clutches orjust brakes? ! 23 A. . Actually, brakes, just brakes. | 24 Q. And did the testing that you did in your 2 5 early years at VWAG, did the testing in any way measure Page 31 1 Q. Is that throughout your career? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What are the model names of VWAG 4 multipurpose vehicles? 5 A. We call it bus. 6 Q. Bus? 7 A. Type two bus. Type two is actually the 8 internal distribution of this vehicle. 9 Q. So, if I were to go to a Volkswagen dealer 10 in the U.S.A., what model names or brand names would be on 11 those cars? 12 A. Nowadays, it is a Euro Van. Before, it was 13 Vanagon, and before that it was the type two generation. 14 Q. Type? 15 A. Type two. 16 Q. Do you know, when you first got there in 17 1973, what those cars would have been that were the 18 multipurpose vehicles, what they were called, if you would 19 have purchased them in the United States, 20 A. Volkswagen bus, micro bus, probably. 21 Q. So, for somebody that doesn't recall any of 22 this like me, were these buses or were these like what you 23 refer to as an SUV today? 24 MR. GRASSO: Or something else. 25 Q. Or something else? Don't be limited by my Page 33 j 1 the effectiveness of the friction on the brake? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q- In what way? j 4 A. By means of stopping distance. | 5 Q. That when you were to put your foot on the 6 brake how quickly the vehicle would stop. Is that a 7 layperson's - 8 A. Yes. Basically, that is it. But, you have j 9 to meet requirements of the applicable safety standard. 10 Q- Do you recall anytime in the first ten f 11 years that you were at VWAG when you made a determination | 12 based on your tests that the friction on the brakes was | 13 not sufficient to meet standards? j 14 A. No. 1 15 Q. Do you recall during the first ten years 16 that you were at VWAG having any conversations with 17 anybody who ordered the linings for the brakes on the I 18 vehicles? 19 MR. GRASSO: You mean, ordered them | 20 from a supplier? | 21 MR. FOX: Ordered from the supplier. | 22 A. Back then? | 23 Q- Yes. | 24 A. Not that Irecall. 25 Q- Now, there's is a few companies that are f 9 (Pages 30 to 33) Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29,2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 34 1 identified in the interrogatories. 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. And I want to go back to them later, but I 4 just want to ask you this at this point about them 5 initially. 6 There is a company called Energit? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Are you familiar with them? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. When was the first time that you knew a 11 company called Energit even existed? 12 A. Well, forever. 13 Q. Forever? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Who do you know them to be? 16 What kind of company are they? 17 A. Well, on the friction market, during the 18 last decades there have been so many reorganizations 19 between this and that company, ! can't really tell which 20 was when. 21 Q. You and I both, we have that in common. 22 A. Because it is pretty much not confusing, I 23 would say, but you have specifically get into it and find 24 out who was owned by who. 25 Q. Do you recall being familiar with Energit in Page 36 1 A. Oh, yes, I can. 2 MR. FINBERG: Just to clarify, if I 3 could inteiject. 4 You mean, as original equipment or ! 5 as something that would be compatible in | 6 general? j 7 I assumed that you meant original j 8 equipment only. | 9 Q. Let me ask you this. Do you have any 10 knowledge what brake linings were used to replace original 11 brake linings on the original car? < 12 A I could find out. 1 13 Q. How would you find out what was used to 14 replace original brake linings on a vehicle? 15 MR. FINBERG: In the United States, 16 in the after market? 17 A. Replace? j 18 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to what brake 19 linings were used to replace the original equipment on the 20 Volkswagen cars? j 21 A It was the EPE, European Parts Exchange, and 22 they used Mintex linings, and certainly there was a list 23 of which part replaced the other. 24 Q. Any others that you recall that you know of 25 that were used? Page 35 1 1973? 2 A. Not specifically, but basic knowledge, yes. 3 I mean, as a supplier of brake linings. 4 Q. Was Energit the most significant supplier or 5 were theyjust one of many1? 6 A. One of four. 7 Q. And would you say that they -- what 8 percentage - do you know the percentage of brake linings 9 that they supplied VWAG? 10 A. Not to my knowledge. You have to take into 11 consideration that there are many models, which one model 12 may now have the Energit and the other has the Textar 13 lining. 14 Q. Textar? 15 A. T-E-Z-T-A-R. 16 MR. GRASSO: Z? 17 A. T-E-X-T-A-R, not Z. Sorry, did I say that? 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. Iam sorry. 20 Q. Do you know which vehicles the Energit brake 21 linings went on? 22 A. I have to refer to my, you know, file or . 23 something, you know, to check. 24 Q. Is that something that you could determine 25 if you looked? Page 37 . 1 A. I can check with, you know, drawings and 2 stuff and documentation to find out which was the ji 3 original equipment lining. 4 Q. But, other than EPE relining the original 5 equipment for the VWAG cars, are you familiar with any ' 6 other - would you have any other knowledge as to which 7 brake linings were used to replace original equipment on : 8 the VWAG cars in the United States? ' 9 MR. FINBERG: I have to object. 10 That is really -- j 11 MR. FOX: I don't know who -- ; 12 MR. FINBERG: - 1mean ~ 13 MR. FOX: Who do you represent? 14 MR. FINBERG: I represent 15 Volkswagen. i 16 MR. FOX: I am concerned about two ' 17 of you objecting at once. 18 MR. FINBERG: That is why I 19 hesitated to put it on. - 20 I think it is really confusing. It 21 is confusing to me, and I am not sure you 22 are talking about the same thing. 23 Q. Do you understand my question? 24 A. Yes, I understand. But, I mean, this is not 25 a question that I can answer because this is strictly , 10 (Pages 34 to 37) Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall V. Asbestos Page 38 1 related to the Volkswagen of America Company. 2 Q. Right. 3 A. And I am representing AG which is a 4 different company. 5 Q. So, other than your knowledge about EPE, do 6 you have any other knowledge about any replacement linings 7 that were used on VWAG cars in the United States? 8 A. You mean, on the free market? 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. No. As 1 sit here? 11 Q. So, now we are back on the other question 12 which was I think -- 1forgot already. 13 MR. FOX: Thanks. 14 You got me completely offline. 15 It is not hard to get me off line. 16 Q. So, you testified that you could make some 17 determination as to which of the four companies that 18 supplied the brake linings were used on which vehicles if 19 you looked in your files. Is that correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 MR. FOX: What I will do depends how 22 you want to deal with it. There will be 23 certain things that come up today 1 am sure 24 I want to follow up on. 25 , Would you like me to write a letter Page 40 1 and they come up with, you know, the specification for the 2 brake lining. 3 Q. Did you provide the information in the 4 interrogatories regarding these four companies? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. How did you figure out that these were the 7 four companies that provided the brake linings? 8 A. I had checked first the company to come up 9 with these four suppliers. 10 Q. And did you do the search or did they do the 11 search? 12 A. I asked for it, and they did the search. 13 Q, Okay. Do you know what they did? 14 A. They looked in their system, nowadays the PC 15 stuff, and they have it there, and they provided me with 16 the information I was asking for. 17 Q. Did they provide you with some kind of a 18 readout orjust a verbal communication? 19 A. It was a readout. 20 Q, Do you know - what information did that 21 readout have on it? 22 A. Different model years and different models 23 and different linings to them. 24 Q. Do you still have that? 25 A. Yes. Page 39 1 or make a statement at the deposition? 2 MR. GRASSO: I would rather you 3 write a letter. I don't see how anything 4 - as far as I know, there is no evidence 5 of what sort of brake linings or which 6 brake linings Mr. Wall actually handled, so 7 I don't know, really know where you are 8 going with this. 9 If you want to know on a 1962 car, 10 did it take Energit brakes or Textar 11 brakes, Mr. Kolms can probably figure it 12 out. 13 As to determining how it relates to 14 the brake shoes Mr. Wall was handling, I 15 have no idea. 16 MR. FOX: I do, okay, so let's move on. 17 Q. All right. Do you know if, for example, on 18 the Beetle which supplier supplied the brake linings for 19 the Beetle when you first got there? 20 A. I have to look it up. 21 Q. What kind of resource do you have that would 22 provide you with that information? 23 A. I can, for instance, call another factory 24 where the spare parts were actually or the parts, you 25 know, were manufactured, and they look up in their system, Page 41 1 MR. FOX: That is an - we will put 2 it into a letter to you. That is an item 3 we would like to take a look at. 4 MR. GRASSO: Just for clarification, 5 is that something that you obtained 6 specifically for this case? 7 THE WITNESS: No. 8 MR. GRASSO: That is why he didn't 9 have it in his file. He got it sometime 10 for some other purpose, I guess. 11 Q. Do you know anything about the composition | 12 of the brake linings that were supplied by Energit, 13 Juridwerke, Pagid and Textar? 14 Do you know anything about the composition 15 of those brake linings? 16 A. In general. 17 Q. What do you know? 1 18 A. Well, depending on which model year you are i 19 referring to. There was - in the past, there was a time f 20 where asbestos was part of the content, and there was a f 21 time after that, so. Basically, it is resin filler fiber f 22 particles and dust of different substances. 23 Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not the 24 composition of the brake linings were different depending 25 upon the manufacturer? 11 (Pages 38 to 41) 0 Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 42 1 A. To my knowledge, they differ a little bit, 2 but not that much. 3 Q. Do you know if for the ones that had 4 asbestos in them, if the asbestos content differed in 5 terms of percentage depending upon the manufacturer? 6 A. Well, actually, there is no - not --I mean, 7 not the manufacturer is the issue, but the specific lining 8 is the issue. But, even at a certain manufacturer 9 different linings have a different content. 10 Q. Okay. Who specified the content of the 11 linings that Volkswagen used on the cars? 12 A Basically, the technical need. 13 Q. So, it came from VWAG to the manufacturers? 14 A. No. It came from testing relining. 15 MR. GRASSO: I would like to ~ we 16 are confused here. 17 Mr. Fox asked you who was it that 18 said how much asbestos used to be in the 19 linings. 20 MR. FOX: No. 21 Q. Who specified what the manufacturer had to 22 provide to VWAG? 23 MR. FINBERG: You mean, in terms of 24 contents ingredients? 25 MR. FOX: Yes, yes. Page 44 I 1 MR. GRASSO: That is compound. j 2 Can you read that question back? 3 (The last question was read back) 4 MR. GRASSO: What they needed for 5 the cars? 6 MR. FOX: Yes. That is as simple as 7 you could get. 8 MR. GRASSO: Maybe it is me. 9 Q. Do you understand what I am talking 10 about? | 11 MR. GRASSO: Could you rephrase it? 12 Q. Do you understand it? 13 A. In two ways. 14 MR GRASSO: Well, then, let's not 15 guess which way. 16 Can you rephrase the question, 17 please? 18 Q. My understanding from your testimony is that 19 Volkswagen technical people would communicate with the 20 brake lining manufacturers. They would tell them what 21 they needed to comply with the standards, and the brake 22 lining manufacturers would provide brake linings in accord 23 with those specifications. Is that fair? 24 A. Specifications, this has nothing to do with 25 ingredients or the mixture, right? Page 43 1 Q. Who specified the brake linings? 2 A. You were asking about the asbestos content 3 and who specified? 4 Q. No. Who specified what the manufacturer had 5 to provide to VWAG for its brake linings for its cars -- 6 for its brake linings? 7 MR. GRASSO: That is a different 8 question than you had before. 9 A. That is the same answer I gave you. The 10 technical need was the source for the specific mixture or 11 ingredients within the brake lining. 12 Q. Who determined what the technical need was? 13 A. Well, actually, it comes from the results of 14 the brake testing and within the conversation or 15 discussion between the lining supplier and the testing 16 people at the manufacturer, Volkswagen manufacturer there 17 was decided to change it or to come closer to comply with 18 the requirements. 19 Q. And the requirements of VWAG? 20 A. Well, generally, the requirements like SAE, 21 ISO and European standards. 22 Q. But, the technical people at Volkswagen VWAG 23 would tell the brake lining manufacturers what they needed 24 for the cars and then brake lining manufacturers would 25 provide them? Page 45 1 1 Q. No. 2 A- Just a requirement as a technical goal to f 3 arrive at in testing? f 4 Q. Right. I 5 A, Yes. 1 6 Q. So, is what I said a fair statement? |! 7 A. Yes. J 8 Q. Okay, Do you have any copies of documents 1 9 from VWAG to the brake lining manufacturers regarding the f 10 specifics of what was required? f 11 MR. GRASSO: Could we have a time 12 frame for this? ( 13 Q. Well, you started in 73. Do you have any ; 14 access to documents that would reflect that sometime f 15 before 737 * 16 A. No, I don't. | 17 M R. FINBERG: You referred to SAE, ; 18 and ISO and European standards. Do those ;j 19 exist? | 20 A. This is conversation between -- well, it is | 21 also my information and belief that most of them was just 22 verbal, not in writing. 23 Q. Now, in terms of the time period between 24 1966 and 1970, do you have any knowledge as to which i 25 companies provided the brake linings to Volkswagen AG ( i 12 (Pages 42 to 45) Airbert Kolms Voi. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 46 1 during that period? 2 A. I can figure it out, but I don't have the 3 information right here. 4 MR. GRASSO: Well, was it at least 5 some of those four? 6 THE WITNESS: I guess so, yes. 7 Q. But, you are not sure? 8 A. I need the model year and the model, to be 9 precise andthe year, the time frame, that you are 10 referring to. 11 Sixty-six to 70? What model, what model 12 year? 13 Q. Do you knowwhether or not the brake linings 14 supplied to VWAGby the brake lining manufacturers between 15 1966 and 1970 contained asbestos? 16 A. That is my information, yes. 17 Q. Where does that information come from? 18 A. Well, at that time, everybrake lining had 19 asbestos in there. 20 Q. Do you have anyknowledge as to what percent 21 of the composition of the brake linings supplied to VWAG 22 replaced on the vehicles by VWAGbetween 1966 and 1970 had 23 asbestos? 24 A. The contents were different. 25 Q. And what percentage, do youhave any Page 48 I 1 Q. What is it roughly? | 2 A. About maybe 35 percent. 1 3 Q, Do you know what type of asbestos they were? j 4 A. Chrysotile. 5 Q, How do you know they were chrysotile? j 6 A. We usedjust chrysotile. 7 Q. How do you know? 8 A. 1know that. I 9 Q, How do you know? j 10 A. Out of discussion and information Ihave. f 11 Q. Okay. Who was the discussion with? | 12 A. With the people at the Volkswagen Company. 13 Q. Okay. What did theytell you? | 14 Spedfically, what did they tell you? 1 15 A. I mean, this is the common knowledge. I 16 mean, 1was asking for some more information aboutbrake I 17 linings, and clutch facings, and so on, andthis came up 1 18 within the conversation and discussion. 19 Q. Who was it that told you that the clutch 1 20 facings contained chrysotile asbestos? 21 A. This was -- you mean, the name? 1 22 Q. Yes. . I 23 A. This was part of the information -- 24 actually, it was coming from VWoA, Volkswagen of America. 25 Q. Who did you talk to there, do you recall? Page 47 1 knowledge as to the percentage of asbestos used? 2 A. Yes, roughly. You know, if you ask about, 3 let's say, brake pads or -- what is your question, brake 4 pads? 5 Q. Brake pads. 6 A. We didn't have brake pads at that time. 7 Q. There were no brake pads between '66 and 8 70? 9 A. I don't think so, no. 10 Q, Are you sure about that? 11 A. I have to check. Maybe the type three had. 12 Q. Okay. Were there clutch facings at that 13 time that had asbestos on them? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Do you know what percentage of the clutch 16 facings were asbestos? 17 A. It depends which model year because it is 18 all different according to the model and the model year. 19 Q. Is that something that you can also 20 determine? 21 A. Yes, I can. 22 Q. Do you know, as you sit here today, the 23 range of percentage of asbestos on the clutch facings 24 between '66 and 70? 25 A. Only roughly. Page 49 | 1 A. To the people in the legal department. | 2 Q. So, the verbal information you got came from | 3 lawyers? | 4 A. No, technical people. s 5 Q. There are technical people in the legal 6 department? 1 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Do you know on what basis they told you that 9 the clutch facings contained chrysotile asbestos? 10 A. This was the kind of information that I got 11 from the supplier of clutch facings. 12 Q. Do you know which supplier told them that? ; 13 A. Raybestos. | 14 Q. Okay. Do you know, was Raybestos ever used | 15 on original VWAG vehicles? | 16 A. Iam not sure whether it was used worldwide 17 orjust in the States, I don't know. f 18 Q. But, the cars themselves were manufactured | 19 in Germany, correct? f 20 A. Yes. 1 21 Q. So, if they were used in the United States, 1 22 they would be after market, correct? | 23 MR. GRASSO: Say that again. 24 Q. If Raybestos was used in the United States || 25 only, they would be after market brake linings, correct? I 13 (Pages 46 to 49) Airbert Kolms Yol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 50 1 A. I cannot tell you that. 2 Q. How would a Raybestos clutch facing get on 3 an original Volkswagen car? 4 MR. FINBERG: We are talking 1966 to 5 1970? ' 6 MR. FOX: Yes. 7 Q. '66 to 70, if you know. 8 A. I have no information about that. 9 Q. You don't have any information that 10 Raybestos clutch facings were used on the original 11 equipment manufactured by Volkswagen AG, correct? 12 A. I have to figure it out and check it 13 factually to be precise about that. 14 Q. As I said earlier, you can review the 15 deposition and edit information that is necessary. 16 A. Okay. 17 Q. Other than the conversation with the 18 technical people in the legal department, what other 19 basis, if any, do you have for concluding that the clutch 20 faces contained chrysotile asbestos? 21 A. That is the only information that I have 22 except from general information from during the years. 23 Q. That you have heard? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. I want to go back to something that you Page 52 j 1 articles, studies, patents, speeches, presentations, I 2 anything like that. 1 3 MR. GRASSG: You are saying written 4 on behalf of VWAG? 1 5 MR. FOX: Right. 6 Q. On behalf of them as their employee, have . 7 you ever written anything on their behalfthat has been in j 8 the public domain? 9 MR. GRASSO: I don't know what you 10 mean by on their behalf. 11 MR. FOX: I will take that part out. 12 Q. Have you ever written anything about 13 Volkswagen vehicles? 14 A. In general or related to brake -- 15 Q. In general. 16 A. Yes. | 17 Q. What kinds o f materials have you written? 18 A. Just once. There was a coauthor on it, the 19 presentation or a paper, a meeting in Detroit in 1977, 20 which was dealing with the energy absorbing steering | 21 column on type two. | 22 Q, Okay. Other than that, have you ever | 23 written a letter to the editor regarding VWAG | 24 cars? ' 1 25 MR. GRASSO: A letter to the j Page 51 1 said. You said that VWAG, you are not sure, but you would 2 have to check whether or not between 1966 and 1970 VWAG 3 used brake linings or pads. Is that a fair 4 statement? 5 MR. GRASSO: Brake linings or pads? 6 Q, What is the difference between a pad and a 7 lining? 8 A. A lining is a drum brake or attached to the 9 brake shoes in drumbrakes, and the pad is on the disc 10 brake usually in the front axle. 11 MR- GRASSO: 1think your little 12 summary misstated his testimony. I think 13 he is going to check if there were pads 14 used. 15 MR. FINBERG: On type three's is 16 what he said. 17 THE WITNESS: Type three I wasn't sure. 18 Q. But, brake linings were used on VWAG cars 19 between 1966 and 1970? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Okay, We are going to keep on switching 22 around here, so you will excuse my pattern or lack of 23 pattern here. 24 Have you ever written anything on behalf of 25 VWAG that has been in tbe public domain? That is, Page 53 j 1 editor. f 2 What editor? 1 3 Q. A letter to any editor. I don't care who it j 4 is. ' j 5 A. No. f 6 Q. Have you ever given a speech about VWAG j 7 cars? j 8 MR. GRASSO: To anybody, to lawyers, j 9 to anybody? | 10 MR. FOX: Anybody. I don't care. , 11 MR. GRASSO: To an assembly of 12 people? : 13 MR. FOX: To any assembly of people 14 with two or more that doesn't include us. 15 MR. FINBERG: Even a public speech 16 of some kind. , 17 MR. FOX: A speech to a group. 18 A. Yes, often. . 19 Q. What kind of speeches do you give? 20 A. Well, you know, as I told you earlier, I 21 kind of educate. I am educating younger engineers in 22 engineering matters and also in product liability issues 23 because this is part of the certification, so they need to 24 know about it, and that is what I do or I have done. , 25 Q. During the course of your teaching your 14 (Pages 50 to 53) Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 54 1 education, do you address in the product liability part any 2 issue related to asbestos? 3 A. Well, I have not and there is no need to do 4 it today. 5 Q. Ijust want to know if you did it or not? 6 A. No. 7 Q. You have never addressed that issue? 8 A. 1 might have mentioned it, but not in a 9 wider range. 10 Q. Would there be anything in writing from 11 where you may have mentioned it that would reflect what 12 you said? 13 A. No. Just out of my head. 14 Q. Have you ever written an article for a 15 magazine about VW cars? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Have you ever testified before a 18 governmental body or quasi-govemmental body regarding 19 VWAG cars? 20 MR. GRASSO: You mean aside from 21 testimony? 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. Have you ever committed to writing any of 24 your recollection or opinions about the use of asbestos in 25 VWAG cars? Page 56 1 with the beginning of a model, and then the end of it was 2 in the middle of the '80s. It depends on which model year 3 we are talking, so it was a kind of a period of phasing 4 out the asbestos out of the brake linings, but it is all 5 depending on the model year. 6 Q. When did it begin? 7 When was the first time that a Volkswagen 8 used brake linings that contained asbestos, if you 9 know. 10 MR. GRASSO: VWAG? 11 Q. VWAG, sorry. 12 A. With no asbestos? 13 Q. With asbestos, when did they first do it, if 14 you know? 15 A. It depends when the specific model started. 16 Let's say, '49 they started with type one with Beetle and 17 started right away with asbestos-containing linings. 18 Q. Do you know why they used asbestos on the 19 linings? 20 A. This was the material of choice because it 21 was --it had an advantage to the technical performance of 22 the brakes. 23 Q. What was the advantage? 24 A. The advantage was the mineral does not 25 really change in its structure or in its ability to, for Page 55 1 A. What do you mean by committed, planned? 2 Q. In any form, have you ever written anything 3 about asbestos? 4 MR. FINBBRG: I would assume that 5 you would be excluding any communications 6 he may have given to counsel? 7 Q. Other than given to counsel, anything about 8 your review or recollection about asbestos in vehicles? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Have you ever addressed a group of lawyers 11 about asbestos-related issues? 12 A. No. You mean a group, more than two? 13 Q. More than two. 14 A. No. 15 Q. Do you know what period of years VWAG used 16 asbestos-containing brake linings on vehicles? 17 MR. GRASSO: You mean when they-- 18 MR. FOX: When they began and when 19 they ended. 20 MR. GRASSO: When they built 21 vehicles that came equipped with the 22 original equipment brakelinings that had 23 asbestos? 24 MR. FOX: Period of years. 25 A. Well, myinformation that they started early Page 57 1 instance, isolate heat from the caliper in the brake 2 system which is very important because this insulation 3 ability is a safety factor. 4 Q. So, is it your --as a product safety 5 engineer, is it your judgment that asbestos is asbestos, 6 no matter what you do with it, it stays as 7 asbestos? 8 MR. GRASSO: That is way too broad. 9 MR. FOX: It is very simple. 10 MR. GRASSO: Asbestos is asbestos? 11 MR. FOX: Asbestos is asbestos. 12 MR. GRASSO: And it doesn't matter 13 what you do to it? 14 Q. How much when you do- 15 MR. FINBERG: Let's make it clear, 16 Mr. Kolms is not being proffered by us as 17 an expert on brake engineering at trial or 18 in this deposition. There are material 19 scientists, there are brake engineers, 20 industrial hygienists and other people who 21 will be testifying on issues like that 22 aside from, you know, from the objections 23 that Mr. Grasso - 24 MR FOX: W ell- 25 MR. FINBERG: Besides the objections a 15 (Pages 54 to 57) Airbert Kolms Yol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbes'tos Page 58 1 Mr. Grasso may assert to the form of the 2 question. 3 MR. FOX: Okay. We don't need to 4 get into discussions of who we are going to 5 call at trial. 6 You can object and state your basis 7 of the objection without going into 8 elongated comments about other people and 9 what they may do. 10 MR. FINBERG: You are asking him an 11 expert engineering question and that 12 presumes a whole lot aside from the ~ 13 Q. You testified that asbestos does not change 14 its structure? 15 A. Well, I have to be preciser than that 16 because during the brake process the decomposition of 17 asbestos as well by grinding, abrasion, and friction and 18 by heat. But, I was referring to the asbestos within the 19 brake lining before it's going to be micro ground or 20 exposed to heat. 21 Q. So, before it is micro ground or heated to 22 some extent, it does not change its structure, correct? 23 A. Well, it depends on the heat might as well 24 change its structure. 25 Q. Okay. Do you consider yourself an expert on Page 60 1 Q. Did they meet all the standards that were I 2 applicable at that time? I 3 A. Of course. j 4 MR. GRASSO: At what time? j 5 Q. Whenever they were supplied without j 6 asbestos? I 7 A. Any time. Otherwise, you can't sell them. I 8 Q. Right. Do you have any reason to believe 9 that the ones that do not contain asbestos do not work as j 10 well or do not meet specifications -- j 11 MR. GRASSO: That is compound. 12 Q. --as ones that had asbestos in 13 them? 14 MR. GRASSO: That is a compound I 15 question. I 16 Q. Do you have any reason to believe that the j 17 non-asbeStos containing brake linings did not work as well f 18 as ones that had asbestos in it? " 19 MR. GRASSO: You are talking which 20 time frame, when first introduced? 21 MR FOX: In the '80s when they 22 substituted them, sometime in the '80s. 23 A. I have no specific knowledge. You can apply 24 a standard well ahead of the limit or you canjust comply 25 with it. But, I have no specific knowledge about how well Page 59 1 how much heat is necessary to change its structure? 2 A. Only from publications I have access to. 3 Q. Read? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. But, you don't consider yourself an expert 6 other than what you have read in publications, correct? 7 A. Correct. 8 MR. FINBERG: On this issue? 9 MR. FOX: Yes. 10 Q. All right. So, after Volkswagen AG ceased 11 to use asbestos, what did they use as a substitute for 12 asbestos, if you know? 13 A. Not specifically. Because every 14 manufacturer of brake linings had their own recipe. 15 Q. Do you have any idea about the substitute 16 materials, what they were? 17 A. Only I can guess more or less because - 18 MR. GRASSO: We don't want you to 19 guess here. 20 A. I know. That is why I don't tell you or I 21 can't tell you what it is because the recipe is trade 22 secrets. 23 Q. The brake linings that were supplied that 24 did not contain asbestos, did they meet specifications? 25 A. Yes, they have. Page 61 I 1 the non-asbestos linings comply, but they have to comply I 2 with the standards. Otherwise, you can't introduce to the j 3 market. | 4 Q. Do you know when in the '80s they stopped | 5 using asbestos-containing brake linings? I 6 A. It, again, depends on the model year or the J 7 model. J 8 Q. The last date was -- \ 9 A. Well, in the '86 model year, I think there j 10 was any car at Volkswagen model range without asbestos | 11 with the brake lining. I 12 Q. Did Volkswagen --did VWAG tell the brake : 13 lining manufacturers they didn't want asbestos anymore, if 14 you know, or was it done through the brake lining : 15 manufacturers, theyjust changed their formula?Do you : 16 know how it worked? \ 17 MR. GRASSO: Well, that is - how what ; 18 worked? 19 Q. How did it come to be that they stopped f: 20 using the other --how did it come to be that VWAG stopped 21 using asbestos in their brake linings? | 22 A. Well, there was the information or spread ? 23 by, you know, EPA, for instance. 24 Q. EPA? . 25 A. Yes. When in the'70s they mentioned that | 16 (Pages 58 to 61) Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 62 1 they are going to intend to ban and phase out asbestos in 2 all uses, and so and so. This was notjust related to 3 brakes, but also to other products which had asbestos in 4 it, like, tiles, and paper, everything. So, this was the 5 first information that the technical world received that 6 asbestos was going to be banned in the future, and in '89, 7 actually, EPA promulgated the ban and phase out rule for 8 the '94 model year. So everybody knew at that time, the 9 supplier or the manufacturer of vehicles. 10 MR. GRASSO: We have been going 11 about an hour here. 12 Could we have a little break here? 13 MR. FOX: That is fne. 14 You can have a break any time you 15 want. 16 (Recess taken) 17 Q. In terms of the knowledge of what the EPE 18 was to doing back in the '70s, is that something that you 19 were privy to, that you were aware of, at the 20 time? 21 MR. GRASSO: In the '70s, you said? 22 A. No. 23 Q. EPE was the '70s? 24 A. EPE. 25 Q. EPA was in the'70s. . Page 63 1 A. Oh, EPA? 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. No. Now, I understand. 4 Q. Were you aware of ~ you mentioned their 5 pronouncements in the '70s. 6 Were you aware of it in the '70s or aware of 7 it later? 8 MR. GRASSO: Actually, his prior 9 testimony was 1989. 10 MR. FOX: You are talking about 11 something else? 12 A. I said they intended ~ they mentioned it in 13 the early 70s, but they are intending to, you know, ban 14 and give a phase out to asbestos-containing material. 15 Q. But. when this happened, were you aware of 16 it back then or did you leam about it later? 17 A. I learned about it later. 18 Q. When later? 19 A. Recent years. 20 Q. Okay. And how did you come to find out 21 about that? 22 A. Through publications and through information 23 I was scheduling from the internet. 24 Q. Have you reviewed any of the documents 25 internal to VWAG regarding the proposed ban on asbestos? Page 64 1 MR. FINBERG: Lack of foundation. 2 Q. Have you seen any documents --withdrawn. 3 Well, have you seen you can answer. 4 A. The internal procedure, that is the 5 department at the factory which is dealing with the 6 governmental regulations, and they certainly must have 7 gotten information early on from any governmental agency 8 or -- 9 Q. What is that called, that particular 10 department? 11 A. It is called vehicle related requirements. 12 Q. Do you know regarding that particular ! 13 department when that department started -- withdrawn. 14 Has it been in existence since the beginning j 15 of Volkswagen AG? 16 A. Well, not that early. But, you know, later 17 when actually, for instance, the safety standards came out 18 in the mid '60s, so that is my impression. I have no 19 specific information about that. 20 Q. Is there any book, or articles, any which 1 21 way to figure out when that department started? 22 A. I got to ask them. 23 Q. Okay. And if you asked them they tell you? j 24 A. Certainly, yes, if somebody knows. This is j 25 the correction. We are talking of a time frame of 40 1 i : Page 6.' 1 years, 45 years, and most of the people are retired, and s 2 young folks here, they don't know. 3 Q. Were you personally aware of any government 4 compensation for workers who had asbestosis while you had , 5 been at VWAG? 6 MR. GRASSO: Government 7 compensation? | 8 MR. FOX: German regulations j 9 regarding workers that had asbestosis. | 10 MR. GRASSO: Are you aware of ' 11 regulations or individuals that had been : 12 compensated? ( 13 MR. FOX: Just regulations regarding workers ; 14 that had asbestos. 15 MR. GRASSO: Just generally workers : 16 in German industry? | 17 Q. Governmental regarding asbestosis, if you ; 18 are aware of it? 19 MR. GRASSO: Wait. You are talking ; 20 about compensation. I am talking ! 21 government regulations. i 22 MR. FOX: I will withdraw it. 23 Q. Is there anything the equivalent of worker's ' 24 compensation in Germany? ; 25 A. Yes. 1 ESS 17 (Pages 62 to 65) Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 66 1 Q. What is it called? 2 A. Occupational agency for safety and health. 3 Q. Is it true that they have been in existence 4 since certainly the early 1900s? 5 A. Yes. The first -- well, the first 6 appearance of such an idea was in 1858. 7 Q. Do you know if they, as part of their 8 regulatory scheme, have compensation for individuals with 9 asbestosis? 10 A. I have no knowledge about specifically 11 asbestosis. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. But, you know, I have information on lung 14 cancer, which was in '43, or another regulation was 15 relating to mesothelioma in 77. 16 Q. Would the people in the government 17 regulations department, would they be able to tell you 18 when the German government began to recognize asbestosis 19 as a compensable disease? 20 MR. GRASSO: Wait, wait. 21 When the German government 22 recognized asbestosis as a compensable 23 disease? 24 MR. FOX: Yes. 25 MR. GRASSO: That is assuming facts Page 68 1 Q. No, no. 2 A, In general? 3 Q. Any warning or caution about any potential 4 hazards on the vehicle itself, did they ever do that? 5 A. No, 6 Q. Did they ever issue any kind of caution or 7 warning statement in the vehicle manuals? 8 MR. GRASSO: Well, you are talking 9 about manuals published by VWAG? 10 MR. FOX: Yes. 11 A. It is not to my knowledge, no. 12 Q. When you purchase a vehicle, it comes with a 13 manual, correct? 14 MR. GRASSO: With it. 15 MR. FOX: Yes. 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 MR. GRASSO: What kind of manual 18 now? 19 MR FOX: I am going to ask him. 20 Q. A vehicle manual. Whenever you buy a car, i 21 there is a manual? | 22 MR. GRASSO: You were talking about 23 manuals published by VWAG? j 24 Q. Who published the manuals that between 1966 25 and 1970 that were in the cars, was that published by VWAG Page 67 1 not in evidence, for one thing. 2 Q. Would they be able to tell you that? 3 A. This specific department is not able to tell 4 you that. 5 Q. Is there another department that can tell 6 you that? 7 A. No. You have to --I mean, you have to ask 8 the occupational agency for safety and health when it 9 was. But, I told you asbestosis is nothing I know of. I 10 told you about lung cancer and mesothelioma, but 11 asbestosis, I don't know. 12 Q. Is it fair to say that as far as you know 13 even before you got to Volkswagen that Volkswagen AG was 14 aware of and kept in touch with all applicable regulations 15 that could affect their business or employees? 16 A. Oh, yes. 17 Q. Now, do you know whether ornot VWAG ever 18 placed any kind of a warning on any of its brakes or 19 clutches regarding the asbestos content? 20 MR. GRASSO: Well, on the brake? 21 Q. Anywhere on the vehicle itself including the 22 brake? 23 A. As to the asbestos content? 24 Q. Yes. 25 A. Percentage-wise? . Page 69 ! 1 or someone else? j 2 A. VWAG. 3 MR. GRASSO: Are you talking about 4 owners manuals? | 5 MR. FOX: Yes. 6 MR. GRASSO: I thought you referred ' 7 to another manual earlier. | 8 You were talking about owners | 9 manuals. You want to know talking about i 10 asbestos in an owners manual? f 11 Q. To your knowledge in the owners manuals | 12 published by VWAG, was there a caution statement or | 13 warning statement on asbestos content on the brakes or ji 14 clutches? | 15 A. I can't answer that. Not to my knowledge. i 16 Q. As far as you know, you have never seen one, | 17 correct? | 18 MR. FINBERG: You mean, referring to 1 19 the same time period that you ~ | 20 Q. Referring to any time period, have you ever 1 21 seen a caution or warning statement regarding asbestos? j 22 A. Owners manual, not that I recall. | 23 Q. Did VWAG after it stopped using asbestos in | 24 its brakes and clutches contact previous owners or make f 25 efforts to make contact of previous owners of their 1 18 (Pages 66 to 69) Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 70 1 vehicles to inform them of the potential hazards of 2 asbestos? 3 MR. GRASSO: I object to the form of 4 that question. It is kind of a wife beater 5 question. 6 It is assuming facts not in 7 evidence. 8 MR. FOX: I will rephrase it. 9 MR. GRASSO: And it is 10 argumentative. 11 MR FOX: I will rephrase it. 12 I don't see the argumentative part 13 of it, but I will rephrase it. 14 Q. After VWAG stopped using asbestos brake 15 linings and face clutches in its vehicles, did they ever 16 make an effort to contact either the dealers or the owners 17 of those vehicles to inform them of the asbestos content 18 on the brakes and clutches? 19 MR GRASSO: Sounds like the same 20 question to me. 21 Q. Did you inform them --was there any effort 22 made to inform them of the asbestos content? 23 A. Well, when you talk about after they stopped 24 using asbestos, they are making vehicles constantly. They 25 make vehicles that have asbestos and they make different Page 72 1 clutch facings? 2 A. No. 3 Q. To your knowledge, did VWAG ever send out 4 any information, or manuals, or instructions to mechanics 5 or to dealers to inform them about how to work with or ! 6 around the asbestos-containing brake linings and clutch 7 facings? 8 MR. GRASSO: Or did they ever send 9 out materials. Is that your question? | 10 Q. Any communication regarding how to deal with 11 the asbestos in the brake linings or clutches. 12 A. Here in the States? 13 Q. Yes. 14 A. Not to my knowledge. 15 Q. Anywhere? 16 A. I don't know. 17 Q. To your knowledge, were any other I 18 asbestos-containing materials used in VWAG vehicles prior 19 to 1986? 20 MR. FINBERG: What- i 21 Q. Other than brake linings and clutch facings 22 and brake pads, any other parts that contained asbestos? 23 MR. FINBERG: What relevance does 24 this have to Mr. Wall? . 25 MR. FOX: This is a corporate j Page 71 1 that don't have. 1 2 Q, And the ones that they made that had 2 3 asbestos, were there any efforts made to contact those 3 4 owners to tell them that they had asbestos in their brakes 4 5 and clutches? It is yes or no. 5 6 MR. GRASSO: Tell the owners? 6 7 MR. FOX: Yes. The owners of the cars, yes. 7 8 MR. GRASSO: All right, okay. 8 9 A. The owners or the ones that are just buying 9 10 a car? 10 11 Q. The previous owners. 11 12 A. The previous owners '66 to '70 any time? 12 13 Q. Let me rephrase it. 13 14 After VWAG stopped manufacturing vehicles 14 15 with asbestos-containing brake linings and clutch facings, 15 16 did they make any effort to contact individuals who had 16 17 purchased their vehicles that had the asbestos-containing 17 18 brake linings and clutches to inform them that there was 18 19 asbestos in the vehicles? 19 20 MR. GRASSO: You mean the vehicles 20 21 that had these as original equipment? 21 22 MR. FOX: Yes, exactly. 22 23 A. That is not to my knowledge. 23 24 Q. Did VWAG ever recall any of its vehicles 24 25 based on the asbestos content of their brake linings and 25 Page 73 deposition. It doesn't have to. j MR. FINBERG: Regarding events that 1 Mr. Wall's family asserts happened. This | is just - we are going to listen to j questions about anything in the world at f all about Voikswagen AG in any component at | any time? I MR. FOX: This is no different than 1 the interrogatories which apply generally, I and this is pursuant to the case management order. They don't want to repeat every ! deposition by - MR. GRASSO; Just to cut through it, i what you are saying by the case management f order, you don't feel constrained to ask \ questions and pursue discovery related only | to the Wall case. You feel you have a | relief to conduct a global discovery |f regarding Volkswagen AG regardless of time. } MR. FOX: Absolutely. * MR. FINBERG: I don't agree with J that. MR. FOX: There is not much of a | discussion about that because that is clear |;| within the case management order, and we | 1 19 (Pages 70 to 73) Airbert Kolms Vol, No. Page 74 1 don't want to have the witness come back. 1 2 MR. FINBERG: Let's take a 2 3 two-minute recess. 3 4 MR. FOX: I will say this. I have 4 5 been careful to generally do that. Even if the 5 6 Wall case, I will still ask the same 6 7 question. 7 8 MR. GRASSO: We will take them 8 9 question by question. 9 10 MR. FINBERG: Let's take a recess. 10 11 MR. GRASSO: I think we managed to 11 12 get this far without too much disagreement 12 13 here and -- 13 14 MR. FINBERG: I say it because I 14 15 think this is a -- 15 16 MR. GRASSO: Let's just --. 16 17 MR. FINBERG: --lawsuit, and I 17 18 think people are working reasonably, and I 18 19 think, however, not to cast any aspersions 19 20 on you or your law firm, you may have 20 21 noticed that there are other asbestos 21 22 lawsuits in this nation, and the concept 22 23 that people use one lawsuit to collect 23 24 information for use in another lawsuit is a 24 25 sensitive matter. In some places it would 25 January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos MR. FINBERG: Mr. Grasso said that it is not something that VWAG was a participant ~ MR. GRASSO: It may or may not ultimately apply to me, the court order. MR. FOX: If you thought you were special, you could have done something to limit this deposition. It is not a limited deposition. I have been very careful to keep on point about Mr. Wall even if it did only relate to Mr. Wall. I would still ask that question if they were aware of other situations with asbestos. It would still be relevant. What they did with that other asbestos would still be relevant to Mr. Wall. It wouldn't make a difference. For the purposes of getting through this, there is a court order in this case which governs these kinds of depositions, and they cover any situation. MR. GRASSO: I am telling you that they may or may not ultimately, but I am saying let's go ahead with this deposition and get as far as we can. . Page 76 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 UHM Page 75 be considered as a tort. So, I mean, nobody wants to restrain you in discovery related to the Wall case, and 1 think people want to work on that. If your mission is to collect information for global use, I have a very grave concern about that. MR. FOX: You know what, it doesn't make a different because there is a court order in this case that applies that has dealt with the issues that you have raised that relates to this, and it's been clarified time and time again by the Special Master. They don't want the witnesses to come back time and time again when we do a corporate designation deposition. It applies generally to the litigation. MR. FINBERG: So, what you are saying is there is an intent to conduct further litigation against VWAG. MR. FOX: That is a bizarre comment. I am saying there is a court order covering this deposition. Page 77 1 MR. FOX: You can instruct him not 2 to answer and I will come back. 3 MR. GRASSO: I have not instructed 4 him yet not to answer. 5 MR. FOX: This is the way the 6 litigation is conducted. That is the way 7 it is. I even sent you the December 10 8 memorandum from her. 9 MR. GRASSO: We did see that and 10 noticed that it very specifically said 11 because these things are negotiated, etc., 12 etc. ~ let's not rehash. 13 MR. FOX: It is a court order. 14 Let's move on. 15 Q. Other than the brake linings and the clutch 16 facings, were there any other parts of the VWAG vehicles 17 that contained asbestos? 18 MR. FINBERG: With that question in 19 mind, we will take a recess and counsel 20 will confer. 21 MR FOX: Go ahead. 22 (Recess taken) 23 MR. GRASSO: Okay. To the extent 24 that the question posed goes beyond the 25 allegations in this case made on behalf of ........... . h b h 20 (Pages 74 to 77) Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 78 Page 80 1 Mr. Wall, they are clearly not relevant 2 and, frankly, you know, there is talk about 3 doing a global deposition. We could be 4 here for days if you feel that you are 5 entitled to that. 6 As of now, VWAG is a single 7 deposition of defendant and single lawsuit 8 where die allegations are specific, and I 9 will instruct Mr. Kolms not to answer that 10 question and see how much further we can 11 get here. And let's move on with inquiries 12 directed more directly to the allegations 13 in this case. 14 MR, FOX: For the purpose of the 15 record, I want to say that if the witness 16 would have answered the question, I would 17 have obviously asked him questions about 18 where the asbestos was, when it was used, 19 whether or not any instructions were 20 provided regarding that, and where it was 21 obviously on the vehicle as well as other 22 follow-up questions that may be 23 applicable. 24 Either today or tomorrow we will 25 visit with the Special Master and we will 1 brake pads and clutch facings, did VWAG ever manufacture 2 any product equipment or component part that contained 3 asbestos? 4 MR. GRASSO: That is ambiguous. You 5 are suggesting that VWAG manufactured those 6 parts that had in the first part of your 7 question which they did not. 8 Q. Let's try it this way. 9 Did VWAG ever manufacture any product 10 equipment or component part that contained 11 asbestos? 12 MR. GRASSO: Maybe I will just 13 object as compound. 14 Q. Did VWAG ever manufacture any product that 15 contained asbestos, to your knowledge? 16 MR. GRASSO: Product could be a 17 whole vehicle, correct? j 18 MR. FOX: Yes. I guess so. 19 MR. GRASSO: Well, that is what we < 20 have been talking about for the last hour 21 and a half or two hours. 22 Q. Did VWAG ever manufacture anything that j 23 contained asbestos? i 24 MR. FOX: It is very simple. 25 MR. GRASSO: What have we been . i Page 79 1 address this issue and move forward. 1 2 Q. Do you know whether or not VWAG ever itself 2 3 manufactured a product, or piece of equipment, or a 3 4 component part that contained asbestos? 4 5 MR. GRASSO: Equipment or -- 5 6 MR FOX: Product equipment or 6 7 component part that contained asbestos if 7 8 they manufactured it. 8 9 MR. GRASSO: You are talking about 9 10 did they make the component that had the 10 11 asbestos in it? 11 12 MR. FOX: Yes. Did they make any 12 13 product equipment or component. 13 14 Q. Did they manufacture any component product 14 15 or equipment that had asbestos? 15 16 MR. GRASSO: So we are clear, there 16 17 is ambiguity. Obviously, they manufactured 17 18 vehicles and these vehicles had a component 18 19 in it, some of (hem at some point had 19 20 asbestos in that component. You seem to be 20 21 drawing a distinction. Leaving that aside, 21 22 you are asking a different question now, 22 23 right? 23 24 Q. I will do it this way. 24 25 Other than the use of the brake linings, and 25 discussing the last two hours? If the answer is no, we can walk out of here and the deposition is over. MR. FOX: You said you objected to the other question because it referred to the use of the brake linings pads and clutch facings. Ifthatisnot manufacturing, then it is not manufacturing. I am asking did they manufacture anything. MR. GRASSO: Do you want to ask the question, did VWAG ever manufacture a component part that ever contained asbestos? I put that question to you. What is the answer to that? That is one -- MR. FOX: If you want to ask the question, you can ask the question. MR. GRASSO: That is one of the parts of the question that you asked before. MR. FOX: Let's start with that. MR. GRASSO: Just component part. THE WITNESS: I mean, this is Page 81 1 j | | jj | i ; : i 1 j \ ; | s | ; * ; | l . f 21 (Pages 78 to 81) Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 82 1 actually what you were objecting to, I 2 think. Isn't it? 3 MR. GRASSO: I amjust asking you. 4 Did VWAG ever manufacture any 5 component part that contained asbestos. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't think so. 7 Q. Did they manufacture anything that contained 8 asbestos? 9 MR. FINBERG: You are including the 10 whole automobile which is what Carl was 11 talking about before. 12 Q. Did they manufacture anything that contained 13 asbestos? 14 A. I can't think of anything else. Brake 15 linings are manufactured by suppliers. It is my 16 impression that suppliers provide Volkswagen with parts 17 containing asbestos. 18 Q. Did Energit, Juridwerke, Pagid or Textar 19 ever supply any other component parts to VWAG other than 20 the brake linings? 21 A. Not that I know of, no. It is my impression 22 they are strictly bound to the brake lining production and 23 brake pad production. 24 Q. 1asked you about any cautions or warnings 25 regarding asbestos as it related to the brakes and the Page 84 1 MR. FOX: I am sorry. 2 Q. I thought you testified that there was a 3 warning on the boxes of replacement brake shoes? 4 MR. GRASSO: Yes, on the boxes. 5 That is not what you said. 6 MR. FOX: I see, fine. 7 Q. Who placed, if you know, a warning on the 8 boxes of replacement brake shoes? 9 A Whether this was the only department or not, 10 I don't know. But, I am aware that in Germany the 11 Volkswagen plant in Kassel, which was the plant for spare 12 parts, placed a sticker on asbestos-containing parts in 13 the mid '80s. 14 Q. Was that before or after they stopped using 15 asbestos? j 16 A. It was within the period. j 17 Q. And that component part plant, was that part 18 of VWAG? 19 A. It was a supplier plant. 20 Q. Was it owned by VWAG? 21 A The plant itself? 22 Q. The plant that put - 23 A Oh, yes. 24 Q. And do you recall what the warning said? j 25 A. Generally, it was a sticker with an A on it Page 83 1 clutches. 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. To your knowledge, did VWAG ever issue any 4 caution or warning statements about asbestos on any of the 5 component parts on its vehicles? 6 MR. GRASSO: Other than brake 7 linings? 8 MR. FOX: Yes, and clutch facings. 9 MR. GRASSO: I will let him answer 10 that. 11 A. On the car or, let's say, parts, or 12 something like that? 13 Q. Anywhere in any form. 14 A. Yes. There was a warning sticker, which was 15 attached to, let's say, the replacement boxes or including 16 --I mean, the content of which is replacement brake 17 shoes, so there was a warning stricker attached to it at 18 the time both were installed, asbestos-containing material 19 and non-asbestos containing material or part, I should say. 20 Q. Let's stop there for a moment and talk about 21 that. I want to understand this. 22 Who placed the warning on the replacement 23 brake shoes? 24 MR. GRASSO: Well, that misstates 25 the testimony. ' " I Page 85 j 1 which stood for asbestos, and there was some warning in 2 writing that in this part there is asbestos in a certain 3 range content, and it is dangerous to your health. Like ; 4 that. I am not aware of the precise description that is 5 what it says. . 6 Q. Have you ever seen that sticker? 7 A. Yes, I have. 8 Q. In what context did you see that sticker? 9 A. Well, in the context of general information : 10 about asbestos and asbestos brake linings and stuff. 11 Q. Did you see it at a time that it was being 12 used or did you see it after litigation? 13 A. Afterwards. 14 Q. Through litigation? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Do you have a copy of the sticker or do you : 17 know where it would be? 18 A. I don't have it with me, but I can provide 19 you with one if you want to or at least a copy. 20 Q. Do you know what year that sticker was first . 21 placed on the replacement parts? 22 MR. GRASSO: Misstates the 23 testimony. It is on the boxes, not on the 24 replacement parts. 25 Q. On the boxes. 22 (Pages 82 to 85) Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 86 1 A. Well, starting in the early '80s. 2 Q. Early'80s? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Do you know when they stopped using the 5 sticker? 6 MR. GRASSO: When they stopped using 7 the sticker? 8 MR. FOX: On the boxes, yes. 9 MR. GRASSO: Assuming that they 10 stopped using a sticker. 11 MR. FOX: That is true. 12 Q. Have they stopped using a sticker? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Do you know when that happened? 15 A. Yes. When there was no use to it. 16 Q. When was that? 17 A. When all the brake linings had non-asbestos 18 content. 19 Q. You said that was around 1986? 20 A Yes. 21 Q. In that zone? 22 A. Excuse me? 23 Q. In that general area? 24 A. Yes. I think it was in '86 according to, I 25 mean, referring to the brake lining. The clutch was the Page 88 1 A. lam not specifically informed of anybody j 2 else, but, you know, 1assume that the company advised the j 3 dealership about it. ! 4 Q. When you say you would assume, do you have j 5 any knowledge? 6 A. No precise knowledge. 7 MR. GRASSO: When you said j 8 "dealership," which dealership are you 9 talking about? 1 10 THE WITNESS: Any dealership. j 11 MR. GRASSO: Dealerships in the 12 United States? 13 THE WITNESS: I mean, the 14 information here to the dealership was 15 primarily or exclusively sent out by 16 Volkswagen of America which is not my 1 17 company. 1 18 MR. GRASSO: It is a different company. 19 THE WITNESS: It is a different j 20 company. 21 MR. GRASSO: Was VWAG sending any - 22 MR FOX: You can't just ask 23 questions like this. This is not usual. 24 It is not right. You can ask follow-up \ 25 questions. I don't mind if you interject I Page 87 1 same year, I think, yes. 1 2 Q. Okay. These replacement brake shoes and 2 3 clutches, they were soldby VWAG, is that correct, the 3 4 once that had the sticker on them? 4 5 A. Since I represent Volkswagen AG, that is 5 6 true for Volkswagen AG. Whether that is true in the 6 7 States for Volkswagen of America, 1don't know. 7 8 Q. Where did the boxes that contained the brake 8 9 shoes and clutches that hadthe stickers on them, where 9 10 were they sent to? 10 11 A. To the dealership. 11 12 Q. Inthe United States? 12 13 A. 1don't knowthat in those years. Ihave to 13 14 check that. 14 15 MR. GRASSO: Wait a second. 15 16 You are talking about boxes coming 16 17 fromKassel of replacement parts. 17 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. Whether they 18 19 were sent to America, to the States, and 19 20 which model, 1mean, Ihave to checkthat. 20 21 Q. That is something that you can figure out? 21 22 A. I hope so, yes. 22 23 Q. Otherthan the sticker on the boxes, are you 23 24 aware of any other way that VWAG communicated the asbestos 24 25 content of either the brakes orthe clutches to anybody? 25 objections. I am not somebody that tends to interject myself in these things. It is getting a little too much now with your asking questions. You can ask follow-up questions. I am sorry. MR. GRASSO: I am trying to clear up something. MR. FOX: It is not right to do it this way. MR. GRASSO: Then, 1 move to strike the last two questions because there is a profound misunderstanding going on, I believe. MR. FOX: You can't give speeches. MR. GRASSO: I am trying to help you. MR. FOX: Go ahead, okay, so you say. But, so far I don't get that sense that you are trying to help me, but go on. I prefer we not have any further conversation about this unless there is an objection. MR. GRASSO: It is a simple ~ MR. FOX: You want to testify, and j Page 89 j | | S j j 5 1 i \ j : : 1 j j i j 1 -i , 23 (Pages 86 to 89) Airbert Kolms Vol. No. Page 90 1 that is not really appropriate. If you 1 2 want the witness to leave the room, have 2 3 the witness leave the room, and you can 3 4 communicate to me whatever you want to 4 5 communicate. That is fine. With him here 5 6 for you to clarify things is not 6 7 appropriate. 7 8 MR. FINBERG: Do you want to step 8 9 out? 9 10 THE WITNESS: Sure. 10 11 (The witness left the room) 11 12 MR. GRASSO: Why don't you ask him, 12 13 did VWAG send anything to any dealer in the 13 14 United States. 14 15 MR. FOX: I already did that. I 15 16 already asked him if they sent anything to 16 17 anybody. I already did that. He already 17 18 said "No." 18 19 MR. FINBERG: I mean, I think you 19 20 are kind of talking about different 20 21 things. I don't think there is a shared 21 22 understanding. 22 23 I think Carl was just trying to 23 24 assert an objection to help clarify that. 24 25 I mean, your point is well taken. This is 25 January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 92 MR. GRASSO: So you understand, VWAG isn't sending anything to any dealer in the United States. It doesn't happen. MR. FOX: They could. MR. FINBERG: It is a fair question. I don't think he was on the same wavelength. MR. FOX: I am not here to make my closing statement either. I amjust here to ask questions, that is all I amhere to do, and neither are you to make a closing j statement. So - MR. FINBERG: We are certainly here on the other side of a lawsuit. j We are not here to misinform you and 1 to have you thinking there are different | facts than - MR. FOX: That is fine. I appreciate that. That is why you have an opportunity at the end to clarify it and set me straight. MR. GRASSO: So, in two days I can ask a clarification question. MR. FINBERG: I think an objection * that the question is ambiguous and the next j Page 91 Page 93 j 1 your line of questioning, but I think it 2 was just my impression from listening that 3 the witness had a different concept of what 4 the topic was than what you were asking 5 about. 6 MR. FOX: If there was something 7 said that he hasn't talked about yet, you 8 guys are perfectly capable - 9 MR. FINBERG: You were talking about 10 different continents. 11 MR. FOX: 1 asked anywhere. 12 MR. FINBERG: To me, the appropriate 13 objection would be misstates facts or vague 14 and ambiguous. 15 MR. FOX: If I said have you sent 16 anything anywhere, other than the sticker, 17 and he says "No." I don't know how it is 18 vague and ambiguous. 19 MR. FINBERG: This is something 20 about companies. 21 MR. GRASSO: That was to dealers. 22 MR. FOX: He brought that up, not 23 me. 24 If you want to clarify with him, you 25 guys can do that. I don't care. 1 question assumes facts. j 2 MR. FOX: You can object to that. 1 3 MR. FINBERG: I think it is a | 4 language - 1 5 MR. FOX: I don't want speeches to | 6 happen. A lot of times that is, not by | 7 you, used to direct the witness in a ! 8 certain way that is not really appropriate. i 9 MR. GRASSO: I agree. 10 MR. FOX: I would rather not get to 11 that point. |j 12 MR. GRASSO: I would love to. | 13 Frankly, I am holding myself back. | 14 MR. FOX: Let's continue. j 15 MR. FINBERG: All set? | 16 (The witness entered the room) f 17 Q. Let's kind of back up. ! 18 Have you ever conducted a review of all of f 19 the available documents, if any, regarding VWAG's 1 20 knowledge of any potential dangers to asbestos. f 21 MR. GRASSO: It is vague, ambiguous, 1 22 overbroad. j 23 Q. I want to find out whether you have ever | 24 done anything to systematically, not talk to lawyers, | 25 actually go out and look at documents, and look at . ......... ....... '' -- --' . . '" T~T, > . : 1 . 1 ! 1 24 (Pages 90 to 93) Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 94 1 specifications to look at things, and make communications, 2 letters? 3 A. You are just referring to internal document? 4 Q. Internal only. 5 A. Nothing other than speaking to the people. 6 Q, Okay. Do you know what color the brake 7 linings were? 8 MR. GRASSO: Which brake linings? 9 What time frame? 10 Q. In the '66 to '70 frame. 11 A, Dark gray or brownish. I mean, this is a 12 mix of everything, you know, but basically it is dark 13 brownish, grayish. 14 Q. How about the clutch facings, do you know 15 what color they were between '66 and '70? 16 A. On die clutch? 17 Q. Yes. 18 A. I don't recall. It is, again, depending on 19 the manufacturer because we had four of them, so that they 20 are all different. 21 Q. But, you don't know the range of colors, do 22 you? 23 A. No, no. 24 Q. So, do you know whether or not VWAG has 25 today any asbestos-containing brake linings in its Page 96 1 Q. No. Let me go back. 2 When Energit, Juridwerke, Pagid and Textar, 3 when they, supplied the brake linings to VWAG, were they 4 attached to a brake shoe when they supplied them or how 5 did that work? 6 Did theyjust supply the linings and you put 7 the linings on the shoe? Did you send them the shoe and 8-- 9 A. I would have to check them as to every model 10 and model year. This was different. If it was sent, the 11 lining, to the factory, it was riveted on, for instance, 12 and then it was ground to the diameter, the size, which 13 had to, you know, fit into the drum, so this is basically 14 the procedure which was performed. 15 Q. Who did the grinding? 16 A. This was done in another factory in j 17 Braunschweig. 18 Q. Was that a VWAG factory? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Have you ever seen that grinding process? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Do you know what tools they used? 23 A. Yes. I have a general knowledge. 24 It is a machine with a grinding going on top 25 of the brake lining. ...... _ .......... Page 95 Page 97 1 possession? 2 A. You mean, in possession in general? 3 Q. Yes. 4 A. I mean, if we were referring to the museum 5 and suddenly if there are -- 6 Q. Other than at the museum, are you aware of 7 any other information about them having a sample? 8 A. We don't do them anymore. 9 Q. When ~ withdrawn. 10 Are you familiar with the process that was 11 used in the VWAG plants to install the brake linings once 12 they were received from those manufacturers? 13 A. In general, yes. But, not all of them. 14 I mean, this is a long period and too many 15 different models and model years. 16 MR. GRASSO: Let me impose a belated 17 objection, installing brake linings. 18 Q. Taking the ones that came from the four 19 manufacturers and placing them onto VWAG 20 vehicles. 21 MR. GRASSO: The lining is already 22 on the shoe. You are not talking about 23 installing the lining onto a shoe? 24 MR. FOX: Let me withdraw that and go back. 25 A. You mean, replacing? 1 Q. Why would they have to grind the brake 2 lining? 3 A. To provide the exact fit into the brake 4 drum. 5 Q. Do you know if the same grinding process was 6 applied to the clutch facings? . 7 MR. GRASSO: The same process? 1 8 MR. FOX: Yes. | 9 MR. GRASSO: Obviously, not the same 10 process. j 11 Q, Was there a grinding process? 1 12 A. No. 1 13 Q. Why was that? j 14 A. Because the clutch facing is just a parallel f 15 thing. It is not within, like, a drumbrake. It is a f 16 circumference. It is a flat surface and you don't have to 1 17 grind it. 1 18 Q. So I am clear, in terms of what the four f 19 manufacturers who supplied the brake linings to VWAG, in 1 20 terms of what they sent to you, is it fair to say, if I f 21 don't understand this you will correct me, hopefully, is 1 22 it fair to say at times they wouldjust supply the j 23 linings? There are times you would send them the brakes j 24 and they would apply the linings and send them back. Is | 25 that not fair? | 1 ' .. ~ er 25 (Pages 94 to 97) Airbert Kolms Voi. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 98 1 A. No. I mean, you are referring now to the 2 replacement of old linings? 3 Q. No. 4 A. I mean, otherwise, we don't send the shoes 5 to the supplier because they can get it from somewhere, 6 you know. But, again, I have to check as to every model, 7 range as to every model year, because every manufacturer 8 even is different. 9 Q. Between 1966 and 1970, when these four 10 companies would send the brake linings to VWAG, do you 11 know whether or not they sent just the linings or did they 12 send the linings already attached? 13 A. I have to check that. 14 Q. Okay. Do you know if they had sent the 15 brake linings already attached? Would that be attached to 16 an original Volkswagen VWAG equipment? 17 MR. GRASSO: You mean something made 18 by VWAG? 19 MR. FOX: Right, yes. 20 A. I don't know whether it was made by 21 Volkswagen or another supplier, but, you know, the OEM 22 standard --the OEM status is just when the stamp is 23 printed on. There are other parts which are identical, 24 but have not the Volkswagen stamp on it. 25 Q. That are used? Page 100 1 Q. Do you know for sure? 2 A. No. 3 Q, Do you know if the clutches had any kind of 4 marking on them? 5 A. I mean, just an assumption, yes. But, I 6 don't know. I have to check. 7 Q. Do you know whether or not part numbers were 8 embossed on either the brakes or the clutches between 1966 9 and 1970? 10 A. It is not the part --it is not the part 11 number, it is just embossed Volkswagen insi -* 12 Q. There is no part number, but it would be 13 maybe a Volkswagen? 14 A. Again, to be precise, you have to tell me 15 which model and which model year, and then I can check. 16 Q. Okay. But, as you sit here today, you are 17 not aware whether or not the Volkswagen insignia was 18 embossed on any of the brakes or clutches between 1966 and 19 1970? 20 A. 1don't know whether on all of them. That, 21 I don't know. 22 Q. On any of them? 23 A. Certainly, yes, which I said. But, I don't 24 know which model year and which model. 25 Q. But, as you sit here today, you are not Page 99 1 A. For spare part market. They are the ones -- 2 Q. On the new cars? 3 A. No, spare parts. 4 Q. Spare parts? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. In terms of what they supplied for the new 7 cars, do you know whether or not these four manufacturers 8 supplied only the linings or did they supply the linings 9 already attached to the brakes? 10 A. I have to check that. 11 Q. All right. Did original VWAG brakes and 12 clutches, not the linings, but the brake drums and the 13 clutches themselves, were they marked in any way to your 14 knowledge between 1966 and 1970? 15 MR GRASSO: You said, drums 16 marked? 17 MR. FOX: Right. 18 Q. The brakes themselves or clutches 19 themselves, were they marked in any way between 1966 and 20 1970? 21 A. You mean, the brake shoe, for instance? 22 Q. Yes, brake shoe. 23 A. 1think so. 24 Q. You think so? 25 A. Yes. Page 101 1 aware of whether the ones from 1966 or 1970 contained any 2 insignia from Volkswagen? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Let's shift gears for a moment. I guess a 5 poor choice of terms. 6 Did VWAG supply replacement brakes and 7 clutches for their vehicles between 1966 and 1970? 8 A. Volkswagen AG supply? 9 Q. Replacement brakes from anywhere. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Did they supply to the United States 12 replacement brakes and clutches between 1966 and 1970? 13 A. I have to check that, again, and which model 14 year and which model again. 15 Q. Do you know, during the years 1966 and 1970, 16 I know you weren't there at the time, do you know whether 17 or not the replacement brake linings were supplied by the 18 same four companies that we have discussed? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. How do you know that? 21 A. 1was referring to my conversation with the 22 plant in Kassel which was responsible for supplying the 23 applicable brake parts. 24 Q. Any other basis other than conversation? 25 A. No. 26 (Pages 98 to 101) * Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 102 1 Q. Did the replacement brake linings contain 2 asbestosjust like the original ones did? 3 MR. GRASSO: That is vague and ambiguous. 4 Q. From 1966 through 1970? 5 A- Yes. 6 Q. If you were to have in front of you an 7 original VWAG brake and areplacement VWAGbrake, would 8 there be anyway to distinguish one fromthe other that 9 were manufactured in the 1966 through 1970 period? 10 A. When you are referring to brake, you mean 11 the brake shoe or the brake lining? 12 Q. The brake linings were on the brake shoes, 13 correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. So, the brake shoes. 16 A. So, you have two different. 17 Q. You have the original and you have the VWAG 18 replacement. Visually looking at both of them on atabic, 19 could you distinguish between the two? 20 A. No. 21 MR. GRASSO: Let me know if you want 22 to take a lunch break at any point. 23 MR. FOX: Maybe in five minutes. 24 Q. Do you have any knowledge regarding how, on 25 the average, how manymiles a VWAG vehicle manufactured Page 104 1 MR, FOX: Iamjustaskingifheis 2 familiar with it. With you, I am 3 discussing. I amjust asking if he knows. 4 MR. GRASSO: Owners manual and 5 repair manual is totally different animal. 6 MR. FOX: That is true. 7 I am asking if he is aware of it. 8 Just a couple more questions and we will 9 take a break. 10 Q. Have you ever been issued any 11 patents? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Have youever reviewed--withdrawn. 14 Do you know whether VWAG has any patents 15 that relate to the manufacturer of brakes, or clutches or 16 their component parts. 17 MR. GRASSO: That is pretty 18 compound, but, okay. 19 MR. FOX: I am trying to get an answer? 20 A. As to the manufacturer, I mean, the 21 manufacturer, you can't certainly get a patent on the 22 manufacturer. You can get a patent on the ability on the 23 design. I don't know. 24 Q. Do you know whether or not there is some 25 repository or library maintained by VWAG wherein all of Page 103 1 between 1966 and 1967 on would travel before areplacement 2 of the brake lining would be required? 3 A. It depends on the driving of the customer, 4 but usually about 30,000 miles, 25, 30. It all depends on 5 the type of driving. 6 Q. Do you have --is there a number of 7 millimeters that abrake lining would go down to before it 8 had to be replaced? 9 A. It is riveted just above the rivet heads, 10 right? 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. Otherwise, you would damage the brake drum. 13 Q. Do you know how many millimeters that is, 14 approximately? 15 A. About three millimeters. 16 Q. Do you recall what the VW --Volkswagen 17 owners manuals indicated was the appropriate amount of 18 millimeters? 19 A. No. 20 MR. GRASSO: That is assuming that 21 the owners manual said anything about that. 22 MR. FOX: It does. 23 MR. FINBERG: You are agreeing that 24 it assumes that. You are not asserting 25 that it does say that. Page 105 1 its patents are stored? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Where would that be? 4 A. That is in Braunschweig. 5 Q. The department dealing with patents? 6 A. Would also be Braunschweig. 7 Q.Is it called the patent department or 8 something like that? 9 A. Yes. 10 MR. GRASSO: Just for clarification, 11 you want to know about patents relating to 12 the design of a brake component or 13 something? 14 MR. FOX: Yes. 15 A. Not the patent of a manufacturing process. 16 Q. Just the product, its manufacture, the 17 process comes afterwards? 18 MR. GRASSO: Yes. I could imagine 19 someone getting a patent on some 20 manufacturing process when you asked about 21 patenting or manufacturing of brakes. 22 MR. FOX: That is true. 23 MR. GRASSO: I am not sure. 24 Q. Do you know whether or not the patents that 25 we discussed relate to a process, or a piece of equipment 1 ----! 27 (Pages 102 to 105) Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 106 1 or manufacturing process? 2 A. You are asking about a patent? 3 Q. Yes. 4 A. In relation to that? 5 Q. Yes. 6 A. I have to check that. 7 Q. And then - all right. 8 Do you know whether or not VWAG at this time 9 has any promotional literature, brochures, information, 10 communications from any of the four companies that we have 11 discussed so far, Energit, Juridwerke, Pagid or Textar, if 12 they have now any - I will withdraw the question. 13 Do you know whether or not they now have any 14 promotional literature, or communications, or documents 15 from these four companies, Energit, Juridwerke, Pagid or 16 Textar that date back to the period of 1966 through 1970? 17 A. That, I don't know. 1mean, it is 45 years 18 ago, 48 or something. 19 Q. Do you know where that would be if it 20 existed at VWAG? 21 A. No. 1 don't know. 22 MR. FOX: All right. 23 Take a break 24 MR. GRASSO: It is about 40 minutes 25 after 1:00. Page 108 i 1 Q. Do they indicate to you in any way what j 2 percentage - withdrawn. ; 3 Did they indicate to you in any way do, how j 4 any quantity of brake linings that they provided to 1 5 Volkswagen AG? 6 A. No. ; 7 Q. When did these conversations take place? 8 A. A couple of years ago. { 9 Q. Okay. Which company's representatives did | 10 you talk to? 11 A. Pagid and on the phone I talked to the 12 person from Juridwerke. 13 Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not any j 14 representatives of either Pagid, Juridwerke, Textar or 15 Energit had given legal testimony either in court or by 16 deposition regarding the brake linings? 17 A. That is not to my knowledge. 18 Q. Okay. I apologize in advance for some of j 19 the jumping around. We will be all over the place here. 20 I want to get through the material. i 21 A. Go ahead. 22 Q. First, do you know whether or not VWAG, | 23 during the time that you have been with them, has ever 1 24 acquired any company that either manufactured, sold or 1 25 distributed any. products that contained asbestos? Page 107 1 Do you think you can finish 2 today? 3 Do you intend to try and finish 4 today? 5 MR. FOX: Off the record. 6 (Lunch recess). 7 (Read back) 8 Q. Have you had any communications ever with 9 either Energit, Juridwerke, Pagid or Textar? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. In what way? 12 A. Just to retrieve some information, more 13 information, about the manufacturing process on the brake 14 lining and stuff. 15 Q. So, your communication with them was in 16 terms of litigation, correct? 17 A. Well, it was not specifically relating to a 18 specific case, but it was for my general information about 19 the subject. 20 Q. The reason that you were interested in it, 21 am I correct, was because of litigation? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Did they provide you with any written 24 materials? 25 A. No. Page 109 1 A. I don't understand the question. 2 "Acquired," you said? 3 Q. During the time that you have been there has | 4 VWAG ever acquired any company that was in the business, 5 in part or in whole, of manufacturing, or selling or f 6 distributing products that contain asbestos? | 7 MR GRASSO: Since 1973? . 8 MR. FOX: Yes. j 9 A. You mean, asked to produce? | 10 1 don't understand the acquired to. | 11 Q. Did VWAG buy any company? 12 A. No. 1 13 MR. FINBERG: Just to be clear, it | 14 is extremely broad, and judging from some | 15 of the previous questions, you are asking | 16 about products, a company buys a product. 1 17 As I listen, I imagine hypothesizing that } 18 VWAG bought another car company. Your f 19 definition of a product, including a car, | 20 so if VWAG bought another car company that j 21 would qualify as a yes in your question. 22 It is not self-evident from the question. i 23 MR. FOX: Yes. Well, if I include 24 car companies into the mix - f 25 Q. Did VWAG acquire any car companies after \ ....." i ?i. 28 (Pages 106 to 109) A Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 110 1 1973? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Do you know which ones? 4 A. Skoda. 5 Q. S -K - 6 A. S-K-O-D-A. 7 Q. Thank you. 8 A. Seat, S-E-A-T. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. Well, at one time point in time, it was 11 Rolls Royce. 12 Q. Any others? 13 MR. GRASSO: Do you know, for 14 example, did Rolls Royce have products that 15 contained asbestos? 16 Q. That is not the question right now. 17 MR. GRASSO: When you asked -- 18 MR. FOX: It changed. 19 MR GRASSO: The only question is 20 car companies. 21 Forget about whether the car had 22 asbestos. 23 MR. FINBERG: He is doing his best 24 as to the nature of the acquisition and so 25 on. Page 111 1 MR. FOX: I can tell he is doing his best. 2 A. I think that is it. 3 Q. We don't want you to speculate on anything. 4 MR. FINBERG: The best source of 5 information about whether VWAG was the 6 acquiring entity and so on is not Mr. 7 Kolms's view of it, but he gave you his 8 best answer. 9 Q. Do you know when the Skoda acquisition was? 10 A. Not precisely. 11 Q. How about Seat? 12 A. Same. 13 Q. How about Rolls Royce? 14 A. Maybe five years ago. 15 Q. Do you know in 1973, when you first began 16 working at VWAG, at that time, did VWAG own other car 17 companies? 18 A. No. 19 MR. GRASSO: Well, can I --just a 20 thought for a second. 21 MR. FOX: This is an unusual 22 deposition. 23 MR. FINBERG; We are trying to help. 24 MR. GRASSO: May I? 25 (Pause in proceedings) ....... .........." " Page 112 ! 1 (Discussion held off the record) j 2 A. I think it is not that important, but I mean 3 Audi may be one, and another company which comes to my j 4 mind is Skania, the truck, the Swedish truck, and the | 5 manufacturer, but only to a certain percentage, not the ! 6 entire thing. j 7 Q. Do they - did they own Skania in 1973? j 8 A. Later. j 9 Q. How about Audi? j 10 A. Around that time, 1don't know, 73. 11 Q. In 1973, when you began, was Volkswagen | 12 manufacturing vehicles to be sold under another name other I 13 than Volkswagen? 1 14 A. No. 15 Q. Do you know whether or not Volkswagen AG 1 16 ever conducted tests on whether or not the grinding of | 17 brake linings released asbestos fiber -- whether VWAG ever j 18 conducted tests on the release of asbestos fiber, from 1 19 brake linings by grinding? f 20 A. I have no specific information about that. | 21 Q. Do you know of tests conducted by anybody on I 22 the release, if any, of asbestos fibers, fromthe grinding 1 23 of brake linings sold by Volkswagen AG? 1 24 A. No. I 25 Q. Do you know whether or not Volkswagen AG 1 1 ! Page 113 j 1 ever funded, sponsored or conducted studies on the release | 2 of asbestos fibers from any product? 3 A. No. | 4 MR. GRASSO: Wait a second. ; 5 Your question was, do you know? ; 6 MR. FOX: Do you know. 1 7 A. I don't know. . 8 MR. GRASSO: Your answer is you . 9 don't know? ; 10 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 11 Q. You are not aware of any? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Have you asked anybody if any studies were 14 conducted on fibers released on products sold by VWAG? j 15 A. No. 16 Q. When a car is sold by VWAG, and I am 17 referring to the time period of 1966 to 1970,1know you 18 weren't there, if you know, in addition to shipping the | 19 actual car, let's say, to the United States, what else j; 20 would be shipped by VWAG, if anything? ii 21 I am talking about not the body of the car, p 22 but any information, manuals or anything that would come 1 23 with the car? Si 24 A. Except the manuals? J 25 Q. Other than the body of the car itself, what j $ 'I-... V . ... .'. m-<, -.iX:*.'/'-'-- , . .'..""'x,' :5C5i!Sja# ' 29 (Pages 110 to 113) Airbert Kolms Voi. No. January 29, 2004 Wall V. Asbestos Page 114 1 else was shipped? 2 A. Well, the thing is --well, the position of 3 the car goes over to Volkswagen OA at the harbor. 4 Q. Which harbor? 5 A. The harbor in Germany. So, the shipment 6 needs to be done by somebody else of AG. 7 Q. When it gets to the harbor in Germany, what 8 exactly are they shipping? 9 A. The entire car, owners manual, probably not 10 with the car. It must be in another box or -- 11 Q. So, basically the car? 12 MR. GRASSO: Do we have a time frame? 13 Q. 1966 to 1970? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q- Do you know if it wasjust the box and car? 16 A. Just the car. 17 Q- And the manuals separately? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q- Afterthese cars were sold and were taken 20 possession by VWoA, are you familiar --what, if any, 21 communications about these cars existed between VWAG and 22 VWoA? 23 MR. GRASSO: After taking possession? 24 Q What forms of communication was there 25 between Volkswagen in Germany and Volkswagen inthe United Page 116 1 Q. To who? 2 A. I mean, I don't -- I mean, whether it is 3 expressed or not, I don't know whether it is express or 4 not. I don't know. 5 Q. They did warranty the cars as being in safe 6 and good condition? 7 MR. GRASSO: In any time frame or - 8 Q, In 1966 through 1970. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Do you know if during the period between 11 1966 and 1970, there were any recalls of products -- of 12 cars sold in the United States by VWAG? 13 A. For any reason? 14 Q. For any reason? 15 A. I have to check that. 16 Q, Is that something that you could determine? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Do you know during that period what the 19 process was, if there was a recall, how that would be 20 communicated to people in the United States? 21 A. The normal way is that the Volkswagen OA 22 contact the customer and make them aware that there is 23 certain part has been to be exchanged. 24 Q. Who would communicate from VWAG to VWoA 25 about the problem? Page 115 1 States? 2 MR. GRASSO: Any specific cars? 3 Q. Let's say there is a problem with a car, how 4 would that be communicated to the dealers? 5 MR. GRASSO: Some type of warranty 6 claim? 7 MR. FOX: Whatever. If there was a 8 problem with the car. 9 A. I don't see any reason to, you know, contact 10 dealer for dealer if we have a problem with the car. The 11 car has left the final quality control, and it is in the 12 proper condition, and it's been sold to the distributor. 13 Q. Let's back up. Who warrantied, if anybody, 14 the cars sold by VWAG and then sold in the United 15 States? 16 MR. GRASSO: What time frame? 17 MR. FOX; For 1966 to 1970, we will start. 18 A. Who did what? 19 Q. Who warrantied it? 20 MR. GRASSO: Who had the warranty? 21 Q. Who had the warranty, if you know? 22 A. The warranty is kept by Volkswagen OA. 23 Q. Did VWAG warrant their cars to be in good 24 condition? 25 A. Yes. M W ia k fc i B Page 117 1 A. I mean, the directions, vice versa. It is 2 coming from the customer, and then if the claims are 3 numerous then AG would advise OA to do something about it 4 to solve the problem. 5 Q. Do you know who at VWAG would communicate 6 with VWoA during the period of 1966 to 1970? 7 A. I don't know that. 8 Q. Have you ever searched for any 9 communications between VWAG and VWoA during that 10 period? 11 MR. GRASSO: That is way too broad. 12 Any communication for a period? 13 MR. FOX: To determine what kind of 14 communication existed. 15 MR. FINBERG: On that topic. 16 MR. FOX: On any topic. 17 Q. Have you looked to see what was going on 18 between VWAG and VWoA during that time? 19 MR. GRASSO: I think there was daily 20 communication selling cars. 21 I don't understand where you are 22 going. 23 Q. I want to find out if you ever actually 24 looked at any document, did a historical search, between 25 '66 and '70 to determine what was being communicated BfJW! 30 (Pages 114 to 117) Airbert Kolms Voi. No. January 29, 2004 Wall V. Asbestos Page 118 1 between VWAG and VWoA during that period? 2 MR. GRASSO: Off the subject of 3 recalls now. 4 Generally. 5 A. I did not. 6 Q. When you first got to VWAG, do you know was 7 there a science library at the facilities? 8 A. A general library, yes. 9 Q. Where was that located? 10 A. In Wolfsburg at the factory. 11 Q, What kinds of materials were contained in 12 the library? 13 A. Basic science, like, physics, chemistry, 14 automotive engineering, languages pretty much printed 15 compared to today. Everybody has access to internet. 16 Q. At that time when you got there, there was 17 no internet, and it was done through books and through 18 publications? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Do you know if there exists anywhere an 21 inventory of the kinds of materials that existed in the 22 library at that time? 23 A. I doubt that. 24 Q, You are not aware of any? 25 A. No. Page 120 1 there in 1973? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Do you know how long it had been in 4 existence for at that time? 5 A. No. 6 Q. What kind of people worked in the medical 7 department? 8 A. Medicine doctors. 9 Q. Okay. Was there more than one doctor? 10 A. Well, my impression is, yes, more than one. 11 But, I can't be precise about the number. 12 Q. Do you recall the names of any of the 13 doctors that worked in that facility? 14 MR. GRASSO: In 1973? 1-5 MR. FOX: In 1973. 16 A. That, I don't know, no, no name from that 17 time. 18 Q. All right Does the medical library that 19 you referred to still exist? 20 A. I have no idea. 21 MR. GRASSO: Well, you mean, the 22 library that existed in '73 still existed 23 in the same form? 24 MR. FOX: Not the exact same form. 25 Q. Just, is there still a library there? Page 119 1 Q. Do you know which, if any, magazines or 2 journals, VWAG subscribed to when you first got there? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Does that library still exist? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Is there a card catalog? 7 A. Oh, yes, everything. 8 Q- Does it indicate when the books were 9 received? 10 A. That, I don't know. 11 Q. Is there a database at the library, if you 12 know, when the books were received? 13 A. I don't know that. 14 Q. Was there a separate --any other libraries 15 other than the general library that you are aware of? 16 A. Well, I ~ no. I am not aware of anything 17 else. 18 Everybody has a kind of library in his 19 office, and certainly there's some libraries - the 20 medical department is very oriented to their field of 21 expertise. 22 Q. Did you ever see the medical department's 23 library? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Was there a medical department when you got Page 121 1 A. I think so. It was just an example I gave 2 you. 3 Q. Did employees, if you know, in 1973, did 4 they receive annual physicals? 5 MR, GRASSO: You mean, given by the 6 company? 7 MR. FOX: By the company. 8 A. You mean, standard physical examination? 9 Q- Yes. 10 A. No. 11 Q- Do you know whether or not they were, either 12 before they were employed or after they were employed, 13 given any type of routine chest x-rays? 14 MR. GRASSO: Again, by the company? 15 MR. FOX: By the company. 16 A. No. 17 Q. They were not? 18 A No. 19 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to what medical 20 journals if any, VWAG subscribed to in the 1973 time 21 period? 22 A No. 23 Q. Do you know of any way if somebody wanted to 24 find out they could find out? 25 A No. 1tried it, and there is no information 31 (Pages 118 to 121) Airbert Kolms Voi. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 122 1 about that. 2 Q. How did you go about trying to find that 3 out? 4 A. I went to the medical department and asked 5 them that, and they didn't know. This was four years ago. 6 Q. Are you aware of any articles or studies 7 conducted by any doctors associated with the VWAG that 8 related to lung disease? 9 A. Haven't seen any. 10 Q. Do you know whether or not any doctor 11 associated with VWAG --let me withdraw it and try it 12 again. 13 The doctors that were in the medical 14 department, what did they do? 15 What was their role in the plant? 16 MR. GRASSO: As best you can. 17 It is kind of vague. 18 What do doctors do. I don't know. 19 A They closely work together with the company 20 and with different departments where a worker might be 21 working with hazardous material, so their duties are to 22 protect the workers from occupational diseases. 23 Q. Okay. Do you know how they went about doing 24 that? 25 A. Well, they are special --I mean, therefore, Page 124 1 A. Yes, I do. 2 Q. Were there any industrial hygienists 3 employed by VWAG in 1973? 4 A. We don't have that position in Germany. 5 Q. Do you know if anybody assisted these 6 occupational medicine doctors in determining if there was 7 any kind of a danger to workers to hazardous materials? 8 A. That, I don't know. 9 Q. Do you know whether or not there -- in 1973, 10 when you got there, was there any air testing, testing of 11 the air quality or particles in the air by anybody at 12 VWAG? 13 A. I have no precise knowledge. But, I mean, 14 it was common at that time in the industry to come up with 15 dust counting at the working place. They came up with 16 some certain number PPM, parts per million, so this was a 17 common known figure. 18 Q. Do you know what tools were used by VWAG to 19 conduct dust counts? 20 A. At that time, no. 21 Q. Do you know what a midget impinger is? 22 A. My knowledge midget impinger is? 23 Q- Yes. 24 A. I don't know what that is. 25 Q- Have you ever seen anyresults of dust Page 123 1 special departments where the workers are getting kind of 2 in contact with, for instance, poisonous chemicals, so 3 they have to check the workplace as to the hazard and make 4 examination on the workers. 5 Q. So, these were occupational, then, doctors, 6 basically"? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Do you know if those doctors did that same 9 function between 1966 and 1970? 10 A. That, I don't know. 11 Q. Do you recall or do you have any knowledge 12 at all whether or not these doctors ever addressed the use 13 of asbestos in the workplace? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Do you know anything about the backgrounds 16 of the doctors, where they were trained, what kind of 17 degrees they had or if they were board certified or 18 anything like that? 19 A. Just Ph.D. 20 Q. They were not medicine doctors? 21 A. Medicine doctor. 22 Q. And in Germany, are those called Ph.D's? 23 A. Doctor, medicine. 24 Q. Okay. Do you know what an industrial 25 hygienist is? Page 125 1 counts taken at VWAG? j 2 A. No. | 3 Q. Do you know who would be in possession of j 4 any dust counts taken at VWAG? ! 5 MR. GRASSO: In 1973 or at any 6 time? 7 MR. FOX: Conducted around that time. 8 A. Sixty-six or '70? 9 Q. Even when you were there - 10 MR. FINBERG: You are asking today? 11 Q. The reports of the dust counts, where they 12 would be? 13 A. I doubt that any reports from those days are 14 still available if they were there at that time. 15 Q. Why do you doubt that? 16 A. Because there is no reason to keep it 17 forever. 18 Q- Do you know whether or not there were any - \ 19 withdrawn. | 20 Were you ever in the manufacturing plant of ; 21 VWAG? | 22 A. Whether I have been? f 23 Q. Yes. | 24 A. Yes. | 25 Q- How much of your time between 1973 and 1975 | | 32 (Pages 122 to 125) Airbert Kolms Voi. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 126 1 was spent in the manufacturing plant, 2 approximately? 3 MR. GRASSO: Well, or a 4 manufacturing plant. 5 I am sure they had more than one. 6 Q. Or in the manufacturing plant. 7 A. This was not my duty to be there. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. I went there for information, but my primary 10 duty was to perform tests. 11 Q. How much percentage of your time was 12 actually spent -- 13 A. I can't figure my percentage. This is just 14 couple of *- maybe ten times a year I went there to get 15 information and then went back. 16 Q. Do you recall ever seeing any signs in the 17 plant facilities between 1973 and 1975 that contained any 18 warning, or warnings or instructions to their employees - 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. - for any reasons? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Do you recall what kinds of reasons, what 23 kinds of things? 24 A. Noise, dust, wear your glasses, stuff like 25 that. Page 128 1 there were any signs in that area, if you know? 2 A. I don't know. 3 Q. Do you know whether or not the individuals 4 who did the grinding wore masks? 5 A. Whether they wore mask or it was a covered 6 machine, I have no idea. 7 Q. It was either a, what they call, the covered 8 machines like -- 9 A. Grinding? 10 Q- -- like a hood? 11 A Yes. 12 Q It was either a hood or mask. 13 MR. FINBERG: In a particular time frame. 14 THE WITNESS: At that time. 15 Q. Nineteen seventy-three? 16 A. I have no precise information about it, but 17 that is what 1would expect to be. 18 Q. Ml right. Do you know if the hoods were 19 used --why was a hood used? 20 A. Well, this is my assumption. 1don't know 21 exactly what was --the way it was, you know, covered. 22 Q. What would a hood do? 1 23 MR. FINBERG: You are asking -- he 24 just said he didn't know if they used one 25 or had one. Page 127 1 Q. What kind of signs do you recall about dust 2 in the plant or plants? 3 MR. FINBERG: From 1973 - 4 MR. FOX: Through 1975. 5 A. Just normal advisement. 6 Q- Like what? 7 A. Like, you know, put on your breathing mask 8 or something of that -- 9 Q. What type of employees would be wearing 10 breathing masks? 11 A. At the cast department. 12 Q. Cast? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. C-A-S-T? 15 A. Yes. Because they were working with sand 16 and forming sand. 17 Q. What was the concern about, if you know, 18 about breathing sand? 19 A. Well, anything. You can accumulate the 20 minerals in your lung. 21 Q. What would happen to you? 22 A. This is a medical expression I don't know 23 what happens. Protection is the main concern about it. 24 Q. Do you know whether or not in the plant 25 where they would grind the brake linings whether or not Page 129 1 You are asking as an expert on 2 goods. 3 Q. If they had one, what was the function of a 4 hood, to protect people? 5 A. Yes. To protect people. 6 Q. How does it do it? 7 A. If you grind, for instance, steel or so, the 8 materia] is flying at you, and you have a hood or you have 9 --or you wear your glasses. 10 Q- What does the hood do to protect -- 11 A. It takes away to prevent material -- 12 Q. How does a hood do that? 13 A. By structure, by its structure. 14 Q. Is there any kind of exhaust in the hood? f 15 A. Can be. 16 Q- Do you know whether on or not the hoods at 17 any of the plants at VWAG had exhausts? | 18 MR. FINBERG: In 1973, has he I 19 testified that they were there? 20 MR. FOX: Generally, I think. | 21 A. The information I have is from talking over 22 the phone, I mean, that some people. ; 23 Q. What did you discover? 24 A. I didn't discover anything about it, just an 25 assumption that a hood or other protection would be 33 (Pages 126 to 129) Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 130 1 helpful to protect the worker. 2 Q. Do you know if the hoods that were used in 3 1973 time frame, some of them, had an exhaust? 4 A. Well, I didn't even know whether there was a 5 hood. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. But, I didn't see any. 8 Q. What land of respiratoryprotection 9 equipment was available in 1973 at VWAG for the employees? 10 A. In general? 11 Q, In general. 12 A. I didn't check. 13 Q. But, you saw people with masks, correct, in 14 certain parts? 15 A. In the cast department, yes. 16 Q. What kind of masks were those? 17 A, Just to cover nose and mouth (indicating). 18 Q. Were they paper masks or were -- 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. - or with the tubes? 21 A. No, paper mask. 22 Q. Can you describe, if you can, the area where 23 the brake linings were being grinded by the VWAG 24 employees? 25 A. No, I can't. Page 132 1 thing. 2 Q. There is a legal department? 3 A. Yes. 4 MR. GRASSO: Wait, this is a claim 5 by worker, you said? 6 THE WITNESS: Yes? 7 A. You are not talking about legal 8 complaint? 9 Q. Well, any claim. 10 A. Any claim. 11 Q. Compensation or other claim that they were 12 injured from the use of asbestos. 13 A. Oh, well, any claim. I thought it is a 14 legal issue. 15 Q. So, it is the legal department? 16 A. Well, no. If somebody feels that he's 17 contracted any disease, by a worker due to his occupation, 18 he's been examined by a doctor, and if it is a disease he 19 contracted it in combination or due to his position at the 20 factory or due to his occupation, this is negotiated with 21 the federal agency for health and safety. Whether it is, 22 you know, a compensable disease, it is going to be -- he 23 would be compensated for that. 24 Q. And was that hue in 1973 as well? 25 A. Yes. . Page 131 1 Q. Do you know if there was any kind of 2 ventilation? 3 A. No. I don't know. 4 Q. Do you know --have you ever seen any 5 photographs of individuals grinding the brake linings at 6 VWAG? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Do you know whether or not VWAG ever 9 produced any videotapes before 1986 that captured 10 individuals doing brakejobs? 11 A. Not that I know of. 12 Did you say '86? 13 Q. Yes. 14 A. No. 15 Q. Do you have any knowledge about any claims 16 by employees at VWAG - withdrawn. 17 Who would know at VWAG today what, if any, 18 claims have been made by employees alleging any injury due 19 to exposure to asbestos? 20 A. Who would know? 21 Q. Who would know. 22 MR. FINBERG: Who at VWAG would 23 know, you said? 24 MR. FOX: Right. Who at VWAG would know. 25 A. I assume legal people because it is a legal Page 133 1 Q. Have you ever studied or reviewed the t 2 claims, if any, made by individuals alleging any injury 3 from asbestos-related use at VWAG? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Do you have any knowledge about any claims 6 made by anybody, any employee of VWAG, of injury from 7 asbestos-related activity? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not any of the 10 companies that supplied either the brake linings or the 11 clutch facings to VWAG ever issued any warning or caution 12 statement about asbestos on the materials that they sold 13 to VWAG? s? 14 A, I haven't seen that, no. I 15 Q. When you were there in 1973, 1974, 1975, did 16 you ever see the packaging that came in from any of the I mmzmm?; 17 companies that sold the brake linings and clutch facings 18 to VWAG? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Do you know whether or not in terms of 8 ! 21 Energit, Juridwerke, Pagid and Textar whether or not any 22 of those companies today are related to each 23 other? 24 MR. GRASSO: What do you mean by 25 related? T5 B1BBB H M sTO sim iiii 34 (Pages 130 to 133) Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 134 1 MR. FOX: Have any corporate 2 relationship. 3 MR. GRASSO: You mean by 4 contractual? 5 MR. FOX: Subsidiaries or owned any 6 other company. 7 A. As I mentioned this morning, these companies 8 have been, you know, doing mergers or being bought by 9 somebody, so I don't know what the position is now. 10 Q. Have you ever talked to any representatives 11 of companies from Luxembourg? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Do you know whether or not - withdrawn. 14 In 1973, was Energit a company that resided 15 in Germany? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Was Juridwerke a company that resided in 18 Germany? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. How about Pagid? 21 A. Same. 22 Q. And Textar? 23 A. Same. 24 Q, Do you know whether or not VWAG was ever 25 informed of any claims against those companies alleging Page 136 1 Q. Do you know whether or not the results of 2 those tests still exist anywhere? 3 A. From that time? 4 Q. Yes. 5 A. I don't know, but I doubt not. 6 Q. Is there still a brake department? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. What kind of equipment was present in the 9 brake area, in the test area of the brake department in 10 1973? 11 A. Well, certainly, you might be looking for 12 any test machines or something --that is not true because 13 this is a performance testing, so the brakes, the brake 14 shoes, and brake linings were actually installed on the 15 vehicles and test runs have been done at different 16 stopping distances, and different force to the pedal and 17 stuff. 18 Q. Okay. When force was applied to the pedal, 19 what was that testing? 20 A. What force is needed to get the vehicle to a 21 standstill. 22 Q. Did the brake department in the test area 23 measure the extent to which the friction material would 24 deteriorate after use or during use of the vehicle? 25 A. I mean, they might have after long test Page 135 1 any injury related to asbestos? 2 A. No. 3 Q. You are not aware of any? 4 A. lam not aware of any. 5 Q. You wouldn't be in a position to be aware of 6 any, correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Yes, you would not be? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. All right. Do you know what process was 11 used to choose Energit, Juridwerke, Pagid and Textar to 12 supply the brake linings to VWAG? 13 A. Performance and quality. 14 Q. How do you know - were you part of the 15 process to choose them? 16 A. No. 1 was not. But, this is the very 17 common way to, you know, get a supplier to contact, 18 whether they comply with the requirements we have of them 19 or the quality. 20 Q. Okay. Do you know who atVWAG, if anybody, 21 tested the brake linings manufactured by these companies 22 to see if they were of good quality? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Who is that? 25 A. The brake department in the test area. Page 137 1 runs, for instance, for two weeks or three weeks. They 2 certainly will check on the brake lining itself. 3 Q. Do you know whether or not any air sampling 4 or dust counts were taken in the brake department test 5 area? 6 A. For what? 7 Q. For anything. 8 MR. FINBERG: Any particular time? Same 9 time period? 10 MR. FOX: During 1973 time frame, if 11 you know. 12 A. I don't know. 13 Q. Were there microscopes in the brake 14 department test area? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Were there microscopes in other laboratories 17 at VWAG? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What areas would those be? 20 A. The test lab. 21 Q. In 1973, how many people worked in the test 22 lab? 23 MR. GRASSO: Brake test lab? 24 MR. FOX: No. 25 A. The general? 35 (Pages 134 to 137) Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 138 1 Q. The general test lab. 2 A. Hundreds. 3 Q. Hundreds? 4 A. Hundreds. I don't know. 5 Q. How many of them were, you know, 6 scientists? 7 MR. GRASSO: This is getting a 8 little far afield. 9 A. I have no precise number and I, you know. 10 Q. Is it fair to say that the test laboratory 11 at VWAG in 1973 was state of the art? 12 A. Of course, yes, or ahead even. 13 Q. Or ahead? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. That was a source of great pride for VWAG? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. That test laboratory, did that exist between 18 1966 and 1970? 19 A. It is not the same, but some kind of testing 20 laboratory, of course. 21 Q. Do you know whether or not in the testing of 22 the brake linings the brake department ever broke down the 23 constituents of the lining itself to determine what was in 24 there? 25 A. The ingredients? . Page 140 I 1 frame? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Do you know whether or not prior to 1996 [ 4 there was any communication by any company to VWAG 5 inquiring about the asbestos content of the brake linings 1 6 or clutch facings? 7 A. Do I know? 8 Q. Do you know? 9 A. No. . 10 Q. You have testified that VWAG stopped J 11 manufacturing cars that contained the asbestos-containing 12 brake linings and clutch faces around 1996? 13 MR. GRASSO: Well, that is not j 14 exactly true, but... 15 Q. It is not true? Is that true? j 16 A. Well, the phase out period. | 17 Q. Phase out period? 18 A. Eighty-six is the year where we didn't have 19 any brake or asbestos-containing brake linings on the ; 20 cars. 21 Q. My question to you is, was that true 22 worldwide orjust for the United States? j 23 A. This is worldwide. 24 Q. Was there any differentiation in when VWAG 25 stopped selling cars with asbestos-containing brake Page 139 Page 141 1 Q. Yes. 2 A. No. 3 Q. You don't know if they did that? 4 A. I don't know. 5 Q- Did they have the capacity to do that? 6 A. At that time? 7 Q. Yes. 8 A. Maybe, maybe not, I don't know. 9 Q. Do you know if in 1973 they had any 10 high-powered microscopes in the general testing 11 department? 12 A. Yes. Electron microscopes, yes. 13 Q. Do you know what TEM means? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Did they have any TEM at that time? 16 A. In '73? 17 Q. Seventy-three. 18 A. Or before? 19 Q. Or before. 20 A. I have no idea. 21 0. Do you know with the electron microscopes 22 how powerful they were in 1973? 23 A. No. I don't know. 24 Q. Are you aware of any pictures, photographs, 25 of any of the laboratories in the 1973 or before time 1 linings and clutch facings in terms of the country to 2 which the cars were sold? 3 A. I didn't get that. I am sorry. 4 Q. When they determined over this period of 5 time ending in 1986 to phase out the asbestos-containing 6 brake linings and clutches, was there any differentiation, \ 7 any difference, in terms of the different countries? j 8 A. Was not. 1 9 Q. It was all the same as far as you know? f 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Do you know whether or not VWAG did any g 12 competitive testing on other manufacturers' brake linings 3 13 or clutch facings? j 14 MR. GRASSO: What time period? ; 15 Q. In the 1970s? 16 MR. FINBERG: What? ! 17 Do you mean by other manufacturers? >: 18 MR. FOX: Other companies. 19 MR. FINBERG: You mean other car : 20 makers' sub-components? 21 MR. FOX: Right. ( 22 A. I don't know what the reason would have been ; 23 to do that because, you know, different cars have 24 different designs, and you arejust testing the lining. j! 25 If the lining is coming from the same SU.* 36 (Pages 138 to 141) Airbert Kolms Voi. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 142 1 supplier, it doesn't make sense to put it on another car, 2 but they might have. 3 Q. If you know. 4 A. I don't know. I haven't checked that. 5 Q. You don't know, for example, in the brake 6 department if they looked at how the brakes manufactured 7 by other car manufacturers performed? 8 MR. FINBERG: 1think it is --you 9 said brakes manufactured by other car 10 manufacturers? 11 MR. FOX: Yes. 12 MR. FINBERG: W ell- 13 MR. GRASSO: You are talking about 14 other cars? 15 A. Usually, an automotive manufacturer really 16 wants to know what the competition does. This is a very 17 normal every day work to compare with other vehicles or 18 other make, so it might have been. 19 Q. Okay. But, do you know in the brake 20 department if they did that competitive test? 21 A, I don't know. 22 Q. Again, you think if there were records that 23 reflected that, you are not sure where it would be, if 24 anywhere, at this point? 25 A. You mean, still available? I don't know. . Page 144 1 of anybody. 2 Q. You know some of themhad been there for a 3 long time? 4 A. Yes. But, nowadays, I should add, due to 5 the early retirement, they don't stay that long as up to 6 the 65 years age. 7 Q. Have you ever received any awards from VWAG? 8 A. Warranties? 9 Q. Awards. 10 A. Awards, no. 11 Q. Employee of the month or anything like that? 12 A. We don't have that. 13 Q. You don't have that stuff? 14 A. No, no. 15 Q. Do you have a resume? 16 A. I have a resume? 17 Q. Do you have a resume? 18 A. On my -- 19 MR. GRASSO: CV. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Do you have one of those? 22 A. Not here. 23 Q. Do you have one in Germany? 24 A. Yes. 25 MR. FOX: 1am going to ask that Page 143 1 Q. Do you know of anybody in the brake testing 2 lab area, brake department testing area, that was working 3 for VWAG in the 1970s that is still there today? 4 A. I knew one engineer who is now retired, but 5 1know that a couple of people at the actual blue collared 6 working place are there for a long time. 7 Q. The who? 8 A. Blue collared. 9 Q. Do you know how long they were there for 10 when they began? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Was it in the '70s? 13 A. Yes. In the 70s. 14 Q. Do you know what their names are? 15 A. No. 16 Q. But, you can find them if need be? 17 A. Oh, yes. 18 Q. How about the general testing area, do you 19 know anybody who had been there since the '70s? 20 A. Yes. About the same. 21 Q. Do you know their names? 22 A. In the general? 23 Q. In the general, people that have been there 24 for a very long time. 25 A. Hundreds of people. I don't know the names Page 145 1 that be produced as well. 2 MR, GRASSO: I will take it under 3 consideration. 4 I will give it to you. 5 MR. FINBERG: Would you like it in 6 German? 7 Q. Is it in English or German? 8 A. It's three, four-line resume. 9 Q, That is it? 10 A. Very short, yes. 11 MR. FINBERG: All employers since 1973 12 A. I mean, by resume you mean curriculum 13 vitae? 14 Q. Yes, yes. Do you have one of those? 15 A. Can't tell you. 16 MR. FINBERG: Do you want to relay 17 it to him? You know, date of birth and 18 stuff, you know. Any more than that? 19 MR. GRASSO: Maybe rank and serial 20 number. 21 MR. FINBERG: It's got your date of 22 birth, current employment, which dates back 23 to 73, and your education which you 24 stated. 25 THE WITNESS: Or daughter, that kind 37 (Pages 142 to 145) Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 146 1 of family. 2 MR. FINBERG: Is there anything else 3 that you have not told him that is on your 4 resume? 5 MR. FOX: A verbal free-for-all, 6 this deposition. 7 MR. FINBERG: We are just trying to 8 help. 9 MR. FOX: We are finders of the 10 fact. 11 MR GRASSO: Searchers for the 12 truth. 13 Q. Were there any trade associations that VWAG 14 belonged to in 1973? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Do you recall which ones they were? 17 A. Many, many. The whole list? 1 don't have 18 it in my -- 19 Q. Does that list exist somewhere? 20 A. I could ask for it. I have seen it 21 before. 22 MR. GRASSO: This is a list that 23 they were members of in 1973? 24 MR. FOX: Any time. 25 Q. Does that list indicate when they first Page 148 1 THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 Q. Any others that you recall? 3 A. The standard associations they belong to. ; 4 Q. Like? | 5 A. I have to refer to the list. I don't know. 6 Q. As a safety test engineer, were there j 7 associations that involved safety that VWAG belonged to in j 8 the 70s or before that as far as you know? j 9 MR. FINBERG: Do you want me to help? j 10 MR. FOX: No. ^ 11 A. Safety-related association, well, I don't 12 know of any. 13 MR. GRASSO: Are you talking about 14 corporate membership as opposed to its 15 employees being members? 16 Q. Individuals or corporate membership in any 17 safety organization in the 1970s, are you aware of any? 18 A. Well, 1mean, for instance, the American j 19 SAE, Society of Automotive Engineering. That is a very 20 common association where there's quite a, and also the 21 company is a member too. 1 22 Q. Are you a member of that? ' 23 A. No. 24 Q. Were you a member of any trade associations, | 25 organizations? j Page 147 1 joined? 2 A. I don't know. That I don't know. Just the 3 membership, I guess it is. 4 Q. Are there any -- 5 MR. FOX: Again, I will put that in 6 a letter to you and request it officially, 7 the list. 8 Q. Are there any trade associations in Germany 9 that existed in the 70s amongst the car manufacturers? 10 A. You mean, committees about brakes or stuff? 11 Q. I am asking in general, trade associations 12 where all the car manufacturers would get together in one 13 trade association? 14 A. I don't know that. 15 Q. Was there a communication between one car 16 manufacturer in Germany and the other in the 1970s? 17 A. Very little, I guess. 18 Q. As you sit here to today, do you recall any 19 of the trade associations that VWAG belonged to? 20 MR. GRASSO: In the 70s? 21 MR. FOX: In the 70s or before. 22 A. Generally, these trade organizations like 23 engineering organizations VDI and VDR and -- 24 MR. GRASSO: Are those two different 25 ones, VDI and VDR? Page 149 j 1 A. No. 2 Q. Never? | 3 A. No. ; 4 Q. Not part of your benefit package. f 5 A. I mean, it is not in Germany to be a member 1 6 of some trade organizations. 7 Q. SAE, is that a German group? | 8 A. American. SAE, Society of Automotive 1 9 Engineers. . 1 10 Q. Do you know if you were --if they were a ( 11 member of that in the 1970s? | 12 A. Yes. | 13 Q. You are not aware of when that membership jf 14 began? I 15 A. No. | 16 Q. Were there any other American associations, | 17 organizations that you are aware of that VWAG was aware of 1 18 or participated in, a member of? 19 A. I have to check the list. , 20 Q. Do you know whether or not VWAG ever 21 participated in any safety-related studies either in the | 22 1970s orbefore? | 23 MR. GRASSO: Wait a second. ; 24 Any sort of safety related to 1 25 anything at all? 1 1 38 (Pages 146 to 149) Aiibert Kolms Voi. No. January 29, 2004 Wall V. Asbestos Page 150 1 MR. FOX: Yes. 2 Q. Any safety-related studies beyond what you 3 did in the laboratory, something that was either published 4 or was done on behalf of a trade association or group of 5 people. 6 MR: FINBERG: You mean, like, crash tests? 7 MR. FOX: Not something that was 8 done inside the company, but outside. 9 MR. FINBERG: This is not asbestos 10 now? 11 Q. Anything safety related. 12 A. There are a couple of international 13 committees. We are, the automotive manufacturers, sending 14 a member or an employee there to sit in and help decide on 15 safety measures and, of course, Volkswagen was a member of 16 many of them. 17 Q. Do you know the names of any of those 18 organizations? 19 A. No. But, I know there was, for instance, 20 the brake committee, International Brake Committee where 21 Volkswagen still is a member of, and they sit together and 22 find out about new standards, and what the standard should 23 ask for and stuff like that. 24 Q. Where is the International Brake Committee 25 based out of? Where is their home base? Page 152 1 A. The issues they are dealing with is a 2 combination of medical and engineering problems with 3 automotive or, you know, using the automobile in traffic, 4 so it is injury, crash, collision-related sides. 5 Q. And it is called the American Association? 6 A. Triple AM. 7 Q. What do the three A's stand for? 8 A. American Association of Automotive Medicine. 9 Q. Okay. 10 MR. GRASSO: Could I speak to him 11 for just a moment? 12 MR. FOX: If he is done with his 13 answer, yes. 14 A. I am. 15 (Pause in proceedings) 16 A. You were asking for its name in the '70s? 17 Q. Yes. 18 MR GRASSO: That was its name in 19 the 70s, okay. 20 Q. Is it the same name now? 21 Does it exist now? 22 A. Yes, it does. 23 Q. It was called that in the 70s? 24 A. I guess so. 25 MR. GRASSO: If you are really Page 151 1 A. That, I don't know. They meet here and 2 there, in Japan and U.S., and wherever. 3 Q- It is not a German association. It is 4 international? 5 A. International, yes. 6 Q. Do you know whether VWAG was a member of the 7 International Brake Committee in the 1970s? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Do you know if they were in the '60s? 10 A. I don't know. 11 Q. Did you ever attend any conferences in the 12 1970s regarding safety, you, personally? 13 MR. FINBERG: You mean, beyond brakes? 14 MR. FOX: Any safety-related issues. 15 A. A meeting in Detroit where we present our 16 paper, and Ihave been to a number of triple AM 17 Association of Automotive Medicine of America, triple AM. 18 Q- Where are they located? 19 A. They used to reside in the Chicago area, and 20 these meetings are at different locations in the States or 21 overseas 22 Q- Did they exist in the 1970s as far as you 23 know? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. What kind of issues did they deal with? Page 153 1 curious, I will go off the record and 2 explain. 3 MR. FOX: Okay. Off the record. 4 (Discussion held off the record) 5 Q. Do you recall ever attending any conference 6 or meeting where the issue of asbestos exposure was 7 raised? 8 A. Whether I have? 9 Q. Whether you have personally. 10 A. No. 11 Q- Do you recall during the entire time that 12 you have been with VWAG ever receiving in writing any 13 memoranda, or notification, or newsletter that addressed 14 the exposure to asbestos other than something that you may 15 have received from your attorneys? 16 A. Me, personally? 17 Q. Yes. 18 A. By somebody? 19 Q. By anybody at VWAG. 20 A. Yes. I recall it. Yes, I do. I haven't 21 got it. 22 Q. But, you received something? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Never? 25 A. Your question was, do you recall? 39 (Pages 150 to 153) Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 154 1 Q. Yes. 2 A. I said ~ 3 Q. Yes, you do recall not receiving 4 anything? 5 A. Yes, right. So, I didn't get anything. I 6 didn't receive anything. 7 Q. So, just so I am clear, during the entire 8 time that you have been at VWAG, you have never seen 9 anything in writing from the company that addressed 10 asbestos exposure? 11 MR. FINBERG: Subject to our privilege. 12 Q. Outside of lawyers, but from VWAG itself, 13 you have never received anything that addressed that 14 issue, correct? 15 A. Internal? Within internal? 16 Q. Yes. 17 A. No. Well, except talk to the lawyers and 18 the legal department. Except for that? 19 Q. Yes. Except for that. 20 A. Okay. 21 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to the quantity 22 of VWAG vehicles that were sold in the United States 23 between 1966 and 1970? 24 A. Not exactly. 25 Q. Do you have an estimate? Page 155 1 A. No. 2 Q. Can you give any factual basis to make any 3 estimate as to what that quantity would be? 4 A. This was four years. 5 Q. Yes 6 A. Maybe 500,000. 7 Q. Is that per year or - 8 A. No. 9 Q. Over four years? 10 A. I am not sure. That is just a guess over 11 four years. 12 Q. Do you have any way of estimating of the 13 500,000 approximately that you estimated, what percentage 14 of those would be Beetles during those four years? 15 A. Well, Beetles were the car sold with the 16 highest numbers, but I have no idea. 17 Q. Would you say that more than 50 percent were 18 Beetles? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Would it be more than 75 percent? 21 A, Maybe. I don't know. I am sorry. 22 Q. Somewhere over 50 percent and maybe as high 23 as 75 percent. Is that a fair statement? 24 A. Well, it is over 50 percent. 25 Q. You mentioned earlier in the deposition the Page 156 | 1 European Parts Exchange? j 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. When was the first time that you became j 4 aware that there was an European Parts Exchange or EPE 5 that existed? I 6 A A couple of years ago. 7 Q. Under what circumstances did you find out j 8 that they existed? 9 A. By talking to folks from Volkswagen of 10 America - well, OA, 11 Q. Under what circumstances? Was it 12 litigation-related conversation? 13 A Yes. 14 Q. What did you discover at that time about | 15 EPE? j 16 MR. GRASSO: That is kind of broad. 1 17 I mean, what do you mean? 1 18 Q. I want to ask--well, what did you ask them 19 and what did they tell you about EPE? 20 A. I didn't ask anything. This was --well, it | 21 came up during our discussion - the general discussion on 1 22 certain subject. f 23 Q. How did it come up? 24 A. I just learned that there was an EPE. | 25 Q. They started talking about it? . I f ! Page 157 j 1 A. No. During our conversation, right, it was 1 2 mentioned that there was an EPE, European Part Exchange, f 3 here in the U.S. j 4 Q. That was the first time that you have heard 1 5 about it? | 6 A. Yes. | 7 Q. This was a couple of years ago? | 8 A. Yes. 1 9 Q. I know this was a conversation, but what did 1 10 you learn, if anything, in that conversation about what | 11 EPE did? ! 12 A. EPE was the organization where used brake | 13 parts were sent to, and they were replaced by new ones. 1 14 The manufacturer of the brake lining was Mintex, so this 15 is basically the way -- this is the way used parts are ( 16 being replaced by new ones. | 17 Q. You mentioned Mintex? | 18 A. Yes. | 19 Q. When did you first discover or hear that | 20 Mintex was the manufacturer of the replacement parts? | 21 A. The same time. | 22 Q. Two years ago? 23 A. No. I mean, when I say couple, I don't mean 24 two. I mean five or six years. ! 25 MR. GRASSO: For clarity, you said 40 (Pages 154 to 157) Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 158 1 that Mintex was the manufacturer of the 2 replacement parts? 3 Q. Replacement lining. 4 Was that in the same initial conversation? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. That person that told you was somebody who 7 worked at VWoA? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q, Do you know who that person was? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Who was that? 12 A, Yves Lecoz. 13 Q. Could you spell that? 14 A. Y-V-E-S L-E-C-O-Z. 15 Q. What position did Yves Lecoz have with VWoA, 16 if you know? 17 A. I don't know exactly his position. 18 Q. Do you know how he knew about EPE? 19 A. No. It was just his general knowledge 20 because he is here located in the U.S., and he knows about 21 the relation of Volkswagen of America and his suppliers. 22 Q. Was he in the legal department? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. When you had this conversation with 25 Mr. Lecoz, did you take any notes regarding that Page 159 1 conversation? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Was it just one conversation with him or was 4 it more than one conversation? 5 A. Certainly, it was just one when I learned 6 about the EPE. But, we get in contact with each other on 7 business-related things. 8 Q. Did you ever see any documents that 9 reflected VWoA's business arrangement, if any, with EPE? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Did you ask for any? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to whether or 14 not the Mintex brake lining was in any respect any 15 different, whether it be in the constituents, or in the 16 color, or the size, or the performance, than the ones that 17 were used on the original equipment by VWAG? 18 MR. GRASSO: What time frame? 19 Q, Well, you were there since 1973? 20 A. That is not to my knowledge. 21 Q. Did VWAG ever use Mintex produced 22 manufactured brake linings, if you know? 23 A. Volkswagen AG, no. 24 Q. Other than the conversation or conversations 25 that you had with Mr. Lecoz regarding EPE, have you ever Page 160 1 conducted any other investigation regarding what EPE did? 2 A. No. 3 Q. During the time that you were at VWAG, was 4 there ever an instance that VWAG wanted to communicate 5 something, an issue or a problem, to Volkswagen 6 dealerships or repair shops in the United States and, if 7 so, how did they get the communication fromVWAG to the 8 individual dealers in the United States? 9 MR. GRASSO: Okay. I am a little 10 troubled with this. 11 MR. FOX: Do you want me to rephrase 12 it? 13 MR. GRASSO: Yes. 14 Q. I guess the question is, if VWAG wanted to 15 let the individual dealers or repair shops associated with j 16 Volkswagen in the United States know something, how would | 17 it communicate that? f 18 A. Not directly, * 19 Q, How would it be done? j 20 A. They would go through Volkswagen OA, j 21 Q. Did VWAG ever get --withdrawn, J 22 Did VWAG receive any --withdrawn again. | 23 If a car was defective in some way, that is, I 24 there was some problem with the car, and an individual in 1 25 the United States would return the car to a Volkswagen of j i Page 161 11p 1 America, would that car find its way back to VWAG in any 2 respect? 3 MR. GRASSO: Wait a second. j 4 First of all, give me time frame. f 5 Q. In the 1970s, were cars returned from the 6 United States to VWAG? 7 A, For what reason? 8 Q. For any problem with the car? j 9 A. You mean, it can be repaired, o f course, it 10 would be repaired. j 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. If there is an obvious malfunction? | 13 Q. Right. I guess what I am asking, would that | 14 repair be done in Germany -- 15 A. No. | 16 Q. - or would it be done in the United States? j 17 A. In the United States. | 18 Q. Were cars ever sent back to Germany to be | 19 repaired from the United States? | 20 A. No. . | 21 Q. How would you communicate to the United j 22 States VWoA how those repairs should proceed? 23 MR. GRASSO: You mean, if a specific ( 24 problem in a specific car as opposed to | 25 publishing a repair manual. 1 --mm "" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ............................. I'JXdlU................ . 1 .... J E 41 (Pages 158 to 161) Airbert Kolms Vol. No. Page 162 1 MR- FOX: Let me withdraw that. 1 2 Q, You don't recall any instance where a car or 2 3 a set of cars were returned from the United States back to 3 4 Germany? 4 5 A. No. 5 6 Q. Were there, I guess I would call them, 6 7 advisories about certain conditions or patterns of 7 8 conditions? 8 9 MR. GRASSO: I am sorry. 9 10 I don't understand what that means. 10 11 Are you finished with the question? 11 12 MR. FINBERG: Let's take five 12 13 minutes. 13 14 (Recess taken) 14 15 MR. GRASSO: For the record, we have 15 16 been going for about an hour and a half now 16 17 since lunch. 17 18 I have not heard a whole lot of 18 19 questions having to do with really this 19 20 case or even having to do with asbestos at 20 21 all. 21 22 Now, I have been, I think pretty 22 23 lenient and I don't think even you would 23 24 argue that the court order that you claim 24 25 governs gives you carte blanche to ask 25 January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 164 don't have answers to those. 1 I am compelled to have to revisit j them with this witness who has some knowledge about them, but not complete j knowledge about a lot of topics, so I have 1 no choice, but to go through this with him 1 now, so you know I amjust doing what I | have to do. MR. FINBERG: May I ask you this? Do you intend to sue Volkswagen AG in | another lawsuit? f MR. FOX: I have no intention on | answering that question. j MR. FINBERG: Why with regard to this case are you asking any of the f questions that you asked this afternoon because none of them has to do with anything pre 1970 regarding a guy who worked at a VW facility sorting brake shoes | and picking brake shoes which he already ! testified he did. j MR. FOX: You produced somebody in response to a Notice of Deposition for Corporate Designee who did not start until 1973, so... . 1 Page 163 Page 165 1 about any subject in the world to this 2 witness. 3 Like I say, I think I have been 4 pretty easy in letting you go where you 5 want to go. 6 In an off the record conversation, 7 you indicated you were pretty sure you 8 could finish this deposition today. 9 I don't want to hear that when we 10 get to 5:00,1have a whole bunch of case 11 specific questions that we have to 12 reconvene. 13 If you have case specific questions, 14 I would urge you to get to them and not 15 hold them in abeyance to bring the witness 16 back another day. This is a practical 17 matter here. 18 Do you see what I am saying? 19 MR. FOX: I don't see what you are 20 saying. 21 Part of my problem here, my 22 questions to a large extent followed the 23 court ordered interrogatory standard 24 liability interrogatories that were not 25 answered completely by your client, so I 1 MR. FINBERG: He is as good as he 2 could be to answer questions during the 1 3 relevant time period. He has tried to do 4 that where he can. You are asking j 5 questions in 1986 and 1987 and about cars 6 with warranties and, I mean, nothing that 7 has to do, that I can tell, with anything j 8 relating to Mr, Wall and his activities and i 9 his time period and, you know, what of the 10 questions since lunch has related to 11 anything germane to Mr. Wall's activities 12 or circumstances. | 13 MR. FOX: I am not going - what I don't 14 want, what I think is inappropriate, is you i 15 asking me questions. 16 MR. FINBERG: I wasn't - 17 MR. FOX: I have never been in a 18 situation where someone is asking me to j 19 justify. I think every question I have j< 20 asked is relevant to this case. j 21 MR. GRASSO: Since I - ! 22 MR. FOX: I think every question I asked ~ j 23 MR. GRASSO: Since I am being left : 24 out there, I would note many of your j 25 questions has nothing to do with court j i sa iE 42 (Pages 162 to 165) Airbert Kolms Yol. No. Page 166 1 ordered interrogatories. 1 2 MR. FOX: Like what. 2 3 MR. GRASSO: What sort of 3 4 microscopes in a general lab. 4 5 MR. FINBERG: 1973 to 1975. 5 6 MR. GRASSO: Whether cars are 6 7 shipped back to Volkswagen AG for repairs. 7 8 MR. FOX: If you don't see the 8 9 relevance of that, I can't help you with 9 10 that. If you don't see the relevance of 10 11 microscopes that were accessible to them in 11 12 1973 or may have been accessible 12 13 information beforehand, I can't help you. 13 14 That is all I have to say. 14 15 MR. GRASSO: All I can say is this 15 16 deposition -- 16 17 MR. FOX: Nor am I going to help 17 18 you. 18 19 MR. GRASSO: This deposition will 19 20 not last forever. 20 21 If you have more case specific 21 22 questions, I would advise you to ask them. 22 23 MR. FOX: What I intend to do is 23 24 have Volkswagen AG respond as ordered by 24 25 the court as noted without objection. . 25 January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 168 authority or perhaps some kind of mandate that authorizes you to ask these general questions of VWAG, and you are going to do that first before you get to any of the case specific questions. MR. FOX: I think it's been pretty clear so far. I am not done with my deposition, that he doesn't have much knowledge about Mr. Wall's situation, that he doesn't know Mr. Wall other than parts of his testimony, heard about EPE, never went to the facility. I don't know what I will ask him at some point, what else he has to offer in this case. But, I have not asked him that. If he has any knowledge that I am not aware of, he will have to say that.MR. FINBERG: All I think Carl was 1 asking, not to pile two against one, I would encourage you to ask those kinds of questions before we finish today, and let's . try and cover that today and whatever else you think you can do or intend to do and get a court order to do --get that stuff today. Page 167 Page 169 1 MR. FINBERG: Without regard to the 2 claim of Mr. Wall? 3 MR. FOX: Without objection. 4 You can violate the order o f the 5 court. That is your choice. 6 What I want is an answer to every 7 question, I want the documents that are 8 required to be produced. Once I get the 9 complete --without objection, the complete 10 answer to every question in those 11 interrogatories, then I will make a 12 determination as to whether or not I 13 believe a continuing deposition of him or 14 somebody else is required, and then we can 15 talk about it. 16 MR. FINBERG: What you are saying, 17 just to make sure I understand, in an 18 attempt to summarize what you are saying, 19 what you are doing and what you have been 20 doing for the last several hours really 21 does not relate to Mr. Wall's particular 22 claim against VWAG. 23 It relates to your understanding 24 first of the scope of the general order, 25 and the general discovery, and your 1 MR. FOX: Ironically, I have a court 2 order to do that. I don't need an 3 additional one in any event. 4 MR. GRASSO: I am not going to say 5 anything more. 6 Please, go ahead. 7 Off the record. 8 (Discussion held off the record) 9 MR. FOX: I was going to say that 10 given the responses to the interrogatories I 11 which were basically, you know, 12 nonexistent, not a single document 13 produced, that if I were to truly go and 14 ask every question that I need to ask, this 15 deposition would last several days, if not 16 weeks. 17 MR. FINBERG: Actually, I recall you 18 saying before we went back on the record if 19 you wanted to you could go on for days and 20 weeks asking questions about anything you ! 21 wanted to ask. 1 22 MR. FOX: Now, you are not telling the 23 truth. 24 MR. GRASSO: Accurate except for the ) 25 last phrase. 1 43 (Pages 166 to 169) Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 170 Page 172 1 MR. FOX: You are dealing with a 2 very significant company. You are dealing 3 with, you know, a company that existed 4 since 1939, whatever it was, who 5 manufactured and sold cars throughout the 6 world that contained asbestos for many, 7 many years, so I could, yes. I could 8 certainly be justified in going through 9 each of the interrogatory answers asking 10 him if he has knowledge of these, and there 11 are many of them, and not just for the time 12 frame that you chose to ask them in 13 answering them in, but the entire time 14 frame. 15 I have chosen not to do that. I 16 have chosen even to try and extend this 17 deposition for only one day and revisit it 18 once I get the documents and the answers 19 without objections and self-serving 20 limitations that existed in the responses 21 that I got. That is my response. 22 Do you enjoy this? 23 THE WITNESS: Ido. 24 MR. GRASSO: Please, proceed. 25 Q. When you first got to VWAG, were there 1 linings and clutch facings? 2 A. No. I don't know. 3 Q. Are you aware of any car manufacturer that 4 stopped using it before VWAG stopped using it? 5 A. No. I don't know. 6 Q. Were you part of any conversation amongst 7 VWAG personnel regarding when to stop using asbestos in 8 brake linings and clutches? 9 A. No. I was not. 10 Q. To your knowledge, did VWAG ever ask any of 11 the manufacturers o f the brake linings and clutch facings 12 for any tests that those companies may have conducted on 13 any fiber release from the asbestos brake linings and 14 clutches? 15 A. You mean test reports? 16 Q. Test reports from those companies regarding 17 those brake linings. 18 A. No. 19 Q. Do you know if there was any request for any 20 kind of test results from those brake lining manufacturers 21 or clutch facing manufacturers from VWAG? 22 A. That I don't know. 23 Q. Is there somebody presently at VWAG that may 24 know the answer to that question? 25 MR. GRASSO: What time frame are you Page 171 1 specifications for each component part of the VWAG 2 vehicles promulgated by VWAG? 3 MR. GRASSO: For every single part? 4 MR. FOX: Yes. 5 A. You are starting, for instance, with a 6 design drawing which is a specification, yes. 7 Q. When VWAG ordered their brake linings and 8 the clutch facings from these different companies, did 9 they provide them with specifications, do you know? 10 A. Yes, 11 Q. Do you know whether or not the standards 12 that were promulgated by the different government agencies 13 that you referred to earlier, whether or not any of those 14 regulations required the use of asbestos in brake linings 15 or clutch facings? 16 A. No. 17 Q. They did not require it? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to when other 20 car manufacturers, other than VWAG, stopped using asbestos 21 in their brake linings and clutches? 22 A. All 1know is they had to stop asbestos in 23 their products as of'94. 24 Q. I am asking if you know when other car 25 manufacturers stopped using asbestos in their brake Page 173 1 talking about now? 2 Q. Well, they stopped between the '70s and '80s? 3 A. I doubt that any written report is still 4 available from the '70s, let's say. I can check with the 5 brake department to find out. 6 Q. Is there anybody now at VWAG, as far as you 7 know, that was part o f the decision-making process 8 regarding when to stop using asbestos in brakes? 9 A. I don't know of anybody. j 10 Q. Do you know when you received the brake 11 linings from these different manufacturers or the clutch 12 facings were they in any way marked or embossed with * 13 either -- 14 A. Their origin? | 15 Q. Yes. 16 A. Yes. | 17 Q- And what kind of marking was it? ; 18 A. There was an edge code on the side on the 19 flange of the brake lining indicating to the manufacturer 20 to the specific number or identification for the brake ' 21 lining, then the friction range by two digits. | 22 Q- This way VWAG would know which vehicles the ; 23 brake linings belonged to. Is that a fair statement? 24 A. Yes. ' I 25 Q- And the code that was on the side ofthe 44 (Pages 170 to 173) Airbert Kolms Voi. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 174 1 brake linings, what do you refer to that as? 2 A. Edge code. 3 MR. GRASSO: Etch or edge? 4 THE WITNESS: Edge, E-D-G-E. 5 Q. Do you know how many --was it numbers or 6 letters? 7 A. Actually, letters as to the name of the 8 company, let's say, Textar or Pagid or Juridwerke. And 9 then there was a specific number for the identification of 10 the specific brake lining which it says Juridwerke 224. 11 And then there was double digit identification of the type 12 of friction, so let's say FF. The first F stands for the 13 performance up to 400 degrees Fahrenheit, and the second 14 digit stands for the hotter, 400 degrees and over, and F 15 stands for point 35 to point 45 friction coefficient, so 16 they are different, different numbers. 17 Q, Do you know whether or not these different 18 etchings or markings were used by these companies between 19 1966 and 1970? 20 A. I have no reason not to believe that. 21 Q. But, you don't have any personal knowledge. 22 Is that correct? 23 A. I can't recall that I have not seen it. 24 But, basically, yes. It has to. I remember seeing the 25 identification for the model years should be on the edge Page 176 1 there either the base coat on the flange of the brake 2 lining or the back side towards the brake shoe. 3 Q. As I understand, that edge code was designed 4 not for the ultimate consumer, but for you, that being 5 VWAG, to determine which particular car that should go on, 6 correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Do the brakes manufactured by VWAG, do they 9 have any kind of a numbeT on them, or code on them, or 10 model number on them? 11 A. What do you mean by brakes? 12 Q. The- 13 A. The drum? 14 Q. Or the shoes? 15 A. Usually, yes. 16 Q. Did the clutch --didthe clutches have some 17 kind of model number on there? 18 A. We covered this this morning already. I 19 wasn't sure about it. Usually, yes. The parts have parts 20 number, but it has it. There is a possibility there was 21 no number on it. 22 Q. Based on your reading of part of Tom Wall's 23 testimony, do you have any understanding of the areas that 24 you may testify about other than what we have discussed 25 already? Page 175 1 code. 2 Q- Should be? 3 A. Yes, or the back side of it. 4 Q- But, on the lining itself, you are saying? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. If the lining were to deteriorate or get 7 used, would that can - marking go away? 8 A. Well, when the brake lining is worn down to 9 a certain thickness, maybe half of the identification is 10 gone. 11 Q. Okay. 12 MR. FINBERG: The edge code? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 Q- Was the entire name of the manufacturer on 15 the lining itself or only some kind of symbol for that? 16 A. The entire name of it. 17 Q. So, for example, with Energit, the entire 18 name Energit would be on there? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And you saw them in the 1970s? 21 A. That, I don't know. 22 Q- You saw it? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. In the 1970s? 25 A. That, I don't know. Basically, it should be Page 177 1 MR. GRASSO: Just based on Mr. j 2 Wall's testimony or based on anything I 3 else? 4 MR. FOX: Well, I will withdraw the ; 5 question. 6 Q. You know, do you anticipate providing | 7 testimony on any area in this trial that we have not 8 testified about already or that you have not testified j 9 about already? 10 MR. GRASSO: Excuse me, let me 11 interrupt. i 12 We have not designated Mr. Kolms as j 13 a witness. He may or may not testify at f 14 trial. | 15 He is here to give deposition on 16 behalf of the corporation. Ifh eisa | 17 witness at trial, I don't think when j 18 whatever he testifies to would be desired 19 to by counsel, and I don't think we have 20 even figured out what all we may ask him. 1 21 Q. Is there any other area based upon your jj 22 review of his testimony that you consider of any import or | 23 significance to his case? 24 A. Well, not related to his deposition. I am | 25 here to answer your questions. That is all. ? K .... 45 (Pages 174 to 177) Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 178 1 Q. All right. Do you have any other knowledge 2 that we have not discussed regarding the specifics of the 3 allegations in Tom Wall's Complaint? 4 MR. GRASSO: Well, based upon 5 consultations with counsel? I don't 6 understand. 7 MR. FOX: 1 am trying to find out -- 8 I thought this was a follow up to his other 9 question. 10 Q. I want to find out if there is anything else 11 that relates to Tom Wall's case that you know that we have 12 not discussed that may be of some import or 13 relevance? 14 MR. GRASSO: Well, if you understand 15 the question, go ahead and answer it. 16 A. No, I mean, I have read part of Mr. Wall's 17 deposition and one point which struck my eyes was that he 18 was working for quite a time in the shipyard location 19 where he was getting into contact withjust the amount of 20 asbestos fibers, friable asbestos fibers, and certainly 21 that is quite, in my view, a hazardous occupation. 22 Q. Why is it hazardous? 23 A. Because he was probably exposed to a lot of 24 friable fibers. 25 Q. Because why? Page 180 1 A. That is true. I wasn't present when he was 2 performing hisjob there. 3 Q. And in your view because he was manipulating 4 asbestos-containing materials he should have been given a 5 mask or some kind of respiratory equipment? 6 A. Whatever protection was available. 7 Q. Should have been given him? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Should have protected him, correct? 10 MR. GRASSO: In that particular 11 asbestos exposure. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Because he was manipulating 14 asbestos-containing products? 15 MR. FINBERG: You are anticipating 16 his testimony. All he testified was type of 17 asbestos. 18 Q. Whatever type of asbestos it was, should 19 somebody have protected him against the manipulation of 20 those asbestos-containing materials? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Are you aware of any communication fromVWoA 23 to VWAG regarding any potential hazard from 24 asbestos-containing brake linings or clutch 25 facings? Page 179 1 A. Because he was --because he did work on the 2 insulation of pipes in ships. 3 Q. What did he do that caused those fibers to 4 be released? 5 A. He put it on with his own hands. I mean, 6 this is, you know, very hazardous. 7 Q. Because those fibers get released into the 8 air? 9 A. Yes. This specific asbestos there. 10 Q. How long did he do that for, do you recall? 11 A. No. I don't recall. 12 Q. Okay. On what basis do you say as a product 13 safety engineer that his activity with the pipe covering 14 on the ship was dangerous? What do you base that on? 15 A. As I recall, he didn't wear any protection 16 for his - for the exposure he was in, and the type of 17 asbestos used in insulation was a type of mineral which 18 has been linked to diseases, lung diseases, as far as I 19 know, in publications that I have read, so amosite or 20 chrysotile was asbestos used for insulation of pipes. 21 Q. Do you have any knowledge that the pipe 22 covering that he came into contact with, what type of 23 asbestos was in those pipes? Specifically, do you have 24 any knowledge as to that other than what you read in an 25 article? Page 181 1 MR. GRASSO: At any time? 2 Q. At any time from 1940s onward? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Again, you have not done any kind of a 5 search to determine if those kinds of documents exist, 6 correct? 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. Do you know of anybody that has done a 9 historical search to look for documents historically 10 within the company to make that determination? 11 A. I don't know of anybody, no. 12 MR. FOX: To the extent that I have 13 been able to ask you questions, you have 14 been very polite, and kind, and helpful, 15 and I appreciate your testimony today. 16 However, as we have discussed ad 17 nauseam today, and it had nothing to do 18 with you, there are issues that exist about 19 the nature of the discovery in this case, 20 and it may be they may have issues, and I 21 may have issues - - 1do have issues that 22 will have to get resolved. But, in terms 23 of today, to the extent I have been able to 24 ask questions based on what I have 25 previously asked and based on what you i , 46 (Pages 178 to 181) Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 182 1 said, I have completed my direct 2 questions. 3 However, because these disputes 4 still exist, I am reserving, as I indicated 5 earlier, my right to call you back and to 6 answer further questions as more material 7 and more discovery is produced by VWAG. 8 But, in the meantime, I have completed my 9 direct questions. 10 MR. GRASSO: Let's take a real quick 11 break. 12 I may want to ask questions. 13 MR. FOX: Yes, absolutely. 14 MR. GRASSO: There are a couple of 15 follow-up questions that I have, just a 16 few. 17 BY MR. GRASSO: 18 Q. In talking about an average or a possible 19 number of miles between brakejobs or how many miles the 20 car would likely have before its first brakejob, could 21 you explain a little bit what you meant by some sort of 22 average? 23 A. Well, I mentioned in my answer that this is 24 pretty much depending on the way the driver drives the 25 car, whether he applies his brakes often and at what Page 184 1 codes and the reason for these edge codes and, again, I am 2 not sure exactly what it was. There were some questions 3 about the purpose of these codes and were they VWAG only, 4 or were they for retail customers or -- 5 A. Well, for everybody, actually, because this is 6 the special identification of this special lining. So, it 7 gives you information about the manufacturer, about the 8 precise identification, like, 224 something, and then the 9 edge code with two letters. So, it is there for everybody 10 who is interested in getting this or buy this type of 11 lining. 12 Q. There was testimony about Tom Wall when he 13 was working with asbestos on ships and whether he should ; 14 have perhaps worn some protection while he was doing that, j 15 and you mentioned that the asbestos you believe was \ 16 chrysotile or amosite. Is that correct? 17 A. Yes. That is what I said. 18 Q. Your --as I understood it, your opinion 19 that he perhaps should have been wearing protective gear 20 was based upon the fact that you understood that those two 21 types of asbestos were in there. Is that correct? 22 MR. FOX: Objection. You are 23 misstating his testimony. 24 You can ask him anything you 25 want. . Page 183 1 speed, whether it was a country, city traffic. In 2 general, my impression was to compare to the knowledge I 3 have from cars in Germany. It is about 25,000, 30,000 4 miles where we have the first brakejob is necessary and 5 very much depending on the type of driver. 6 Q. So, it could be more, it could be less? 7 A. Right, yes, substantially. 8 Q. It could be substantially more or 9 substantially -- 10 A. Even less than more, substantially less. 11 Q. All right. There was testimony about Mintex 12 linings and whether they were similar or identical, I 13 don't remember exactly, to linings provided by Energit and 14 the other three original suppliers. I am not sure I 15 remember the testimony exactly. But, were the 16 constituents of the Mintex linings identical to what was 17 provided by the original suppliers? 18 MR. FOX: Objection. 19 Lack of foundation. 20 A. Not necessarily, 1mean, if you compare 21 linings you compare the performance, and when I was asked 22 this question Ididn't really pick up on the ingredients. 23 It need not be the same. The performance is the most 24 important thing on the ability of the lining. 25 Q. Okay. There was some testimony about edge Page 185 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. There were some questions about worker's | 3 compensation type claims which may have been made by I 4 guess employees of VWAG, and you were asked about how 5 these are processed, and you mentioned the individual 6 would go to a doctor. 7 My question to you is, would VWAG ever 8 receive back a copy of some sort of claim that the person f 9 would have made? 10 A. No. The employer doesn't get a feedback of | 11 that, does not get a report what happened, you know, to | 12 his employee. | 13 Q. Okay. The claim goes through the - what is || 14 the name of that? | 15 A. The Berufsgenossenschaft. 16 Q. Please spell that for the court reporter, || 17 A. B-E-R-U-F-S-G-E-N-O-S-S-E-N-S-C-H-A-F-T. It | 18 is equivalent to OSHA here in this country, and it is ! 19 occupational agency for safety and health. When an 20 employee feels that he is sick, so he goes to the doctor, f 21 and if the doctor diagnose, for instance, a mesothelioma, | 22 he might have contracted this, this is a disease you have f 23 to report to a mesothelioma register which is under the 1 24 patronage of the Berufsgenossenschaft. And when there is | 25 evidence that he contracted this type of disease due to jf -- M M . . 47 (Pages 182 to 185) Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 186 1 his occupation, then this will be compensated by a type of 2 insurance by the Berufsgenossenschaft, 3 Q. Well, does - 4 A. But, the report, again, that was your first 5 question about that, there is no feedback to the employer 6 to the company. 7 Q. So - 8 A. Volkswagen wouldn't know that there was an 9 employee contracting some disease. 10 Q. Okay. Does VWAG have a file of worker's 11 compensation type claims of its workers who may have made 12 claims or received compensation for asbestos-related 13 diseases? 14 A. No. That is why Volkswagen cannot have such 15 a list because they don't get the information. 16 MR. GRASSO: Okay. That is all 1have. 17 BY MR. FOX: 18 Q. Just a few more. In terms of the markings 19 on the clutches, clutch facings and the brake linings, if 20 they were there at that time, certainly if they were 21 deteriorated, then whatever markings were on there could 22 not be read if the clutch facings or the brake linings 23 were deteriorated, correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And -- Page 188 1 then he should knowwhich model year, which car, and 2 probablyalso what the lining was. But, basically the 3 linings have -- all the linings which are on the market 4 whether they are original or OEMor after market linings 5 theyhave to complywith standards, andthe performance is 6 a major issue ofthe lining. 7 Q. Did VWAG in any way communicate to either 8 the dealers orto the ultimate owners of these vehicles 9 what kind of replacement should be used on the brake 10 linings andthe clutch facings? 11 A. The service station would know. 12 Q. How would theyknow? 13 A. By information fromVolkswagen OA. They are 14 being trainedto service their car. 15 Q, Did VWAGnotify these dealers ormechanics 16 instructions on what was an appropriate replacement from 17 VWAG? 18 A. Any replacement. The mechanics arebeing 19 trained as well as the dealership, so they are very well 20 trainedhow to handle such a service. 21 Q. It is all based on what specifications are 22 used by VWAG andwhat would be an appropriate replacement 23 according to VWAG of the brake linings on the clutch 24 faces, correct? 25 A. Yes. , Page 187 1 MR. GRASSO: When you say 2 "deteriorated," you are including normal 3 wear on that? 4 MR. FOX: Normal wear. 5 MR. GRASSO: Okay. 6 Q. It may not be there? 7 A. Certainly, if you are aware, the lining if 8 that is worn down, that the flange is worn off, there is 9 nothing down. 10 Q. Why would anybody care to know or look to 11 know who manufactured that brake lining other than you 12 guys when VWAG received a shipment from these 13 manufacturers? 14 MR. GRASSO: I have to object to 15 that. He doesn't know what is in anybody's 16 mind. 17 Q. Do you have any reason to believe why 18 anybody would have any reason to want to know who 19 manufactured that brake lining or what code there was on 20 it other than VWAG? 21 MR GRASSO: Or other than some 22 lawyer bringing a lawsuit? 23 A. Certainly, it might be important for when, 24 you know, the dealer has to or the garage really has to 25 get a replacement, you know, to replace the old lining, Page 18' 1 Q. Now, in terms of these claims against 2 Volkswagen AG, when an employee --withdrawn. 3 Did you ever, at any time in your career, 1 4 ever be in a position to work with or deal with worker's 5 compensation claims? 6 MR. FINBERG: You mean U.S. worker's 7 compensation claims or Berufsgenossenschaft 8 claims? 9 MR. FOX: Thank you. ; 10 A. No. 11 Q. That wasn't your job, correct? f; 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. You never interacted with that group he f 14 mentioned? II 15 A. No. ! 16 Q. The German name? jj 17 A. No. p 18 Q. And when an employee claimed that they had 19 some injury related to their employment, was, if you know, ' 20 was VWAG notified that there was a claim that existed? | 21 A. No. | 22 Q. If you know, did VWAG have any right to | 23 challenge any claim by employee? ; 24 A. No personal data, protection. ; 25 MR. GRASSO: No what? | 48 (Pages 186 to 189) Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 190 1 THE WITNESS: Data. 2 Q. How would the German worker's compensation 3 claim board know if the claim was legitimate or not, do 4 you know? 5 A. This has been decided, you know, by the 6 Berufsgenossenschaft, the worker's compensation. 7 Q. Did they ever contact VWAG and say, did this 8 person even work there? 9 A. They would probably not, you know, mention 10 the name or the person. I mean, the way it works is that 11 if it is obvious that this employee got the disease due to 12 his occupation, the worker's compensation is an 13 institution which then would promulgate certain regulation 14 for that workplace to protect the other workers, so it is 15 kind of an increasement of the regulation. 16 Q. If an individual was diagnosed with a 17 respiratory disease, wouldn't VWAG be notified that that 18 individual has a problem and then they should be 19 protected? 20 A. No. There is no feedback. 21 Q. How do you know? 22 MR. FINBERG: Subject to what you 23 just said, you just said there is a way in 24 which there is a feedback. 25 A. Did I say? No. Page 192 1 A. There is no way. There is no way to find 2 out. 3 Q. Do you know if --withdrawn. 4 A e you aware of VWAG ever shifting 5 employees to different areas of the plant based upon 6 medical condition? j 7 MR. GRASSO: Any medical condition, j 8 you are talking? I mean, if somebody can't | 9 stand up anymore, they give them a desk j 10 job? 11 A. That is very common, yes. j 12 Q. They would shift people depending on medical | 13 condition? 1 14 A Yes. 15 Q. If a person felt ill to work, would the j 16 first place that they would go to, would that be the German j 17 compensation or would it be the doctor? 18 A. His personal doctor. | 19 Q. How about the doctors at VWAG, if somebody j 20 had a problem or complaint about their health would they 1 21 go there to talk to those doctors at any time? J 22 MR. GRASSO: I am sure that depends 23 on the complaint, if somebody cuts his 24 finger off ~ 25 MR. FOX: Don't answer the question. L Page 191 1 Q. What is your basis for saying that VWAG was 2 never notified about claims made from its own employees 3 that they were injured from the workplace? How do you 4 know that? 5 A. Well, this is the type of - you know, the 6 organization, the Berufsgenossenschaft, is not entitled to 7 notify the company. What they do is if there is a hazard 8 or danger for the employees, they look for the change of 9 the regulation how to work at that place in general for 10 all the companies. That is the way it works. 11 Q. As far as you know, VWAG has no right to 12 provide any facts to the worker's compensation board in 13 support of or against the claim? 14 A. Oh, the compensation board will probably at -- 15 will check with the working place -- 16 Q. With the employer? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. About what? 19 A. Just, you know. Checking the working place 20 how the protection is being maintained for the employee. 21 Q. Are you awarejust personally of anybody 22 that had any lung impairment or mesothelioma who worked 23 for VWAG? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Have you ever attempted to try to find out? i Page 193 I j 1 MR. GRASSO: - he would probably go . 2 to the doctor that is in the plant. | 3 A. Only if there is an emergency accident, then 1 4 the internal medical department will interact or make an 5 examination on people, examinations on people who are | 6 exposed to, let's say, chemicals and stuff, 1 7 Q. Did VWAG ever perform pre-employment chest i 8 x-rays, if you know? 9 A. You asked that before. 10 Q. Pre-employment? 1 11 A. Pre-employment, no. 12 Q. Did VWAG ever have a consulting doctor | 13 during the time that you were there who came in to review f 14 any issue regarding the health of the employees? jj 15 A. Other than the internal medical? f 16 Q. Yes. | 17 A. No. 1 18 Q. A e you aware of any study of the entire ; 19 plant related to safety issue while you were | 20 there? ' | 21 MR. GRASSO: Any safety issue? | 22 A. No. | 23 Q. Did you have any contact with the German | 24 compensation board while you were at the plant? | 25 A. .No. | 1 49 (Pages 190 to 193) Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 194 1. Q. Did the compensation for injured employees, 2 did that come fromthe government or from the employer? 3 A. This type of insurance is covered by the 4 employer, but the board consists of employer and employees 5 which is a union basically or unions. 6 MR. GRASSO: Wait a second, are you 7 talking about, which board? I thought we 8 were talking about Berufsgenossenschaft. 9 THE WITNESS: Right. There has to 10 be a decision. 11 Q. Who is on that board? 12 A. Members of the employer and of the employees 13 and that is the unions, members of the unions. 14 Q. So, there is a representative of VWAG and a 15 member of the union on there? 16 MR. FINBERG: Of the Berufsgenossenschaft? 17 A. Yes. But, the insurance is covered by the 18 employer or paid for. 19 Q. Is the representative --do you know if the 20 representative from the VWAG would be a medical person or 21 a nonmedical person? 22 A. That, 1 don't know. 23 Q. Do you know who that person was? 24 A. No. 25 MR. FOX: Okay. That is all I have. Page 196 1 didn't know of anybody, correct? 2 A. No. j 3 MR. FOX: Was there -- 4 MR. GRASSO: I am asking questions. 5 Q. The Berufsgenossenschaft, I think you have 6 indicated before it had the power to make regulations if j 7 it decided there was some problem in the workplace j 8 industry-wide? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. This Berufsgenossenschaft is some kind of 1 11 governmental agency? j 12 A. Well, is it governmental or - since the j 13 board is, you know, formed by members of the employer and 14 employees, it is not a governmental. 15 MR. FINBERG: As an officer of the 16 court, I amjust going to represent my | 17 understanding is -- 1 18 MR. FOX: You can't do that now. 19 You are not an officer of the court. I am 1 20 not ajudge or --and nobody, no one is asking | 21 for opinion or comments. Don't do it. j 22 MR. FINBERG: Don't tell me what to 23 do or not to do. I think it is obligatory 24 for counsel if a witness misstated the | 25 facts on the record to state it. j Page 195 1 BY MR. GRASSO: 1 2 Q. Whether or not there is a formal way to find 2 3 out, are you personally aware of anyone at VWAGwho worked 3 4 in anyway with brakes or clutches who came down with 4 5 mesothelioma? 5 6 A. No, I don't. I mean, you are asking if 6 7 formal, no. 7 8 MR. FINBERG: Besides a formal way, 8 9 aside from formal way. 9 10 THE WITNESS: No, I don't. I asked 10 11 about whether there is any knowledge about 11 12 anybody who has been working with brake 12 13 jobs has contracted any disease, and there 13 14 was the answer no. There was no. 14 15 MR. FINBERG: There was no knowledge 15 16 of it? 16 17 THE WITNESS: No, there was no 17 18 person. 18 19 MR. FOX: Do they know or not? 19 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. You know, I 20 21 asked, for instance, the brake shop, the 21 22 people, do you know of anybodywho has 22 23 contracted any disease from working here. 23 24 No, nobody. 24 25 MR. FOX: Whoever you talked to 25 HUs Page 197 MR. FOX: No. It is not. It is 1 called testimony or leading. MR. GRASSO: It is on the record, 1 isn't it? It doesn't make a difference. ! MR. FINBERG: I am not saying - MR. FOX: Let's not having running conversations. Any other questions? MR. GRASSO: No. MR. FOX: Thank you very much, sir. (The testimony was concluded at 4:57 p.m.) ' $ 1 1 1 1 1 i 50 (Pages 194 to 197) * Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29,2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 198 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 , 4 I, Kerry D. Halpem, Shorthand Reporter, 5 certify; 6 That the foregoing proceedings were taken 7 before me at the time and place therein set forth, at 8 which time the witness was put under oath by me; 9 That the testimony of the witness and all of 10 the objections made at the time of the examination were 11 recorded stenographically by me and were thereafter 12 transcribed; 13 That the foregoing is a true and correct 14 transcript of my shorthand notes so taken. 15 I further certify that I am not a relative or 16 employee of any attorney or of any of the parties, nor 17 financially interested in the action. 18 I declare under penalty of perjury under the 19 laws of the State of New York that the foregoing is true 20 and correct. 21 Dated this 30th day of January, 2004. 22 23 24 KERRY D. HALPERN, Shorthand Reporter 25 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATION OF CERTIFIED COPY 2 3 4 5 I, KERRY D. HALPERN, Shorthand Reporter in 6 the State of New York, certify that the foregoing pages 1 7 through 199, constitute atrue and correct copy ofthe 8 original deposition of AIRBERT KOLMS, taken on January29, 9 2004. 10 I declare under the penalty of perjury under 11 the laws of the State of New Yorkthat the foregoing is 12 true andcorrect. 13 Datedthis 30th day of January, 2004. 14 15 \ 16 KERRY D. HALPERN, Shorthand Reporter 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ! | Page 199 1 STATE OF ) 2 COUNTY OF ) SS. 3 4 5 I, the undersigned, declare under penalty of 6 perjury that I have read the foregoing transcript, and I 7 have made any corrections, additions, or deletions that I 8 was desirous of making; that the foregoing is a true and 9 correct transcript of my testimony contained therein. 10 11 EXECUTED this day of , 12 2004, at , . 13 City State 14 15 16 WITNESS: 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ; i i l s * 1 1to 1 51 (Pages 198 to 200) Airbert Kolms Voi. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 1 A________ abeyance 163:15 ability 56:25 57:3 104:22 183:24 able 6:19 66:17 67:2,3 181:13,23 abrasion 58:17 absolutely 73:20 182:13 absorbing 52:20 access 45:14 59:2 118:15 accessible 166:11,12 accident 193:3 accord 44:22 accumulate 127:19 Accurate 169:24 acquire 109:25 acquired 108:24 109:2 109:4,10 acquiring 111:6 acquisition 110:24 111:9 action 1:13 198:17 activities 11:6 165:8,11 activity 133:7 179:13 actual 23:25 24:2 113:19 143:5 ad 181:16 add 144:4 added 13:3 24:14 addition 113:18 additional 6:22 169:3 additions 199:7 address 54:1 79:1 addressed 54:7 55:10 123:12 153:13 154:9 154:13 adjust 27:17 advance 108:18 advantage 56:21,23,24 advise 117:3 166:22 advised 88:2 advisement 127:5 advisories 162:7 affairs 19:15 affect 67:15 afield 138:8 afternoon 164:16 AG 5:21 9:13 21:4,6,15 22:23 38:3 45:25 50:11 59:10 64:15 67:13 73:6,19 87:5,6 101:8 108:5 112:15 112:23,25 114:6 117:3 159:23 164:10 166:7,24 189:2 age 144:6 agencies 171:12 agency 64:7 66:2 67:8 132:21 185:19 196:11 ago 6:6 15:16,19 26:4 106:18 108:8 111:14 122:5 156:6 157:7,22 agree 73:21 93:9 agreed 2:1,7,11,14,18 7:9 agreeing 103:23 ahead 60:24 76:24 77:21 89:18 108:21 138:12,13 169:6 178:15 air 124:10,11,11 137:3 179:8 AIRBERT 1:5,12 4:2 5:1 200:8 allegations 77:25 78:8 78:12 178:3 alleging 131:18 133:2 134:25 ambiguity 79:17 ambiguous 80:4 91:14 91:18 92:25 93:21 102:3 amendment 6:22 America 38:1 48:24 87:7,19 88:16 151:17 156:10 158:21 161:1 American 148:18 149:8,16 152:5,8 amosite 179:19 184:16 amount 103:17 178:19 animal 104:5 annual 121:4 answer 4:11 28:4,19 37:25 43:9 64:3 69:15 77:2,4 78:9 81:2,16 83:9 104:19 111:8 113:8 152:13 165:2 167:6,10 172:24 177:25 178:15 182:6,23 192:25 195:14 answered 7:18 78:16 163:25 answering 164:13 170:13 answers 6:6 16:24 17:2 164:1 170:9,18 anticipate 177:6 anticipating 180:15 anybody 12:19 20:12 20:16,24 22:19 23:2 23:3 33:17 53:8,9,10 : 87:25 88:1 90:17 112:21 113:13 115:13 124:5,11 133:6 135:20 143:1 143:19 144:1 153:19 173:6,9 181:8,11 187:10,18 191:21 195:12,22 196:1 anybody's 187:15 anymore 61:13 95:8 192:9 anyway 6:20 apologize 108:18 Apparently 5:15 appearance 5:14 66:6 applicable 33:9 60:2 67:14 78:23 101:23 applied 97:6 136:18 applies 1:4 8:14 75:10 75:18 182:25 apply 8:18 60:23 73:9 76:5 97:24 appreciate 92:19 181:15 appropriate 2:16 90:1 90:7 91:12 93:8 103:17 188:16,22 approximately 11:1,2 11:14,15 103:14 126:2 155:13 area 6:10 86:23 128:1 130:22 135:25 136:9 136:9,22 137:5,14 143:2,2,18 151:19 177:7,21 areas 137:19 176:23 192:5 argue 162:24 argument 8:10 argumentative 70:10 70:12 arguments 8:14 arrangement 159:9 arrive 45:3 art 138:11 article 54:14 179:25 articles 52:1 64:20 122:6 asbestos 1:3 14:3 15:2 15:9 18:14 29:12,15 29:18 41:20 42:4,4 42:18 43:2 46:15,19 46:23 47:1,13,16,23 48:3,20 49:9 50:20 54:2,24 55:3,8,23 56:4,8,12,13,18 57:5 57:5,7,10,10,11,11 58:13,17,18 59:11,12 59:24 60:6,9,12,18 61:10,13,21 62:1,3,6 63:25 65:14 67:19,23 69:10,13,21,23 70:2 70:14,17,22,24,25 71:3,4,19,25 72:11 72:22 74:21 76:14,16 77:17 78:18 79:4,7 79:11,15,20 80:3,11 80:15,23 81:14 82:5 82:8,13,17,25 83:4 84:15 85:1,2,10,10 87:24 93:20 102:2 108:25 109:6 110:15 110:22 112:17,18,22 113:2 123:13 131:19 132:12 133:12 135:1 140:5 150:9 153:6,14 154:10 162:20 170:6 171:14,20,22,25 172:7,13 173:8 178:20,20 179:9,17 179:20,23 180:11,17 180:18 184:13,15,21 asbestosis 65:4,9,17 66:9,11,18,22 67:9 67:11 asbestos-containing 55:16 56:17 61:5 63:14 71:15,17 72:6 72:18 83:18 84:12 94:25 140:11,19,25 141:5 180:4,14,20,24 asbestos-related 55:11 133:3,7 186:12 aside 54:20 57:22 58:12 79:21 195:9 asked 7:17 40:12 42:17 64:23 78:17 81:21 82:24 90:16 91:11 105:20 109:9 110:17 113:13 122:4 164:16 165:20,22 168:15 181:25 183:21 185:4 193:9 195:10,21 asking 19:4 40:16 43:2 48:16 58:10 79:22 81:9 82:3 89:4 91:4 104:1,3,7 106:2 109:15 125:10 128:23 129:1 147:11 152:16 161:13 164:15 165:4,15,18 168:19 169:20 170:9 171:24 195:6 196:4 196:20 aspersions 74:19 assembly 24:10 53:11 53:13 assert 58:1 90:24 asserting 103:24 asserts 73:3 assigned 11:18,20 30:7 assistance 10:16,18 11:22 assisted 124:5 associated 122:7,11 160:15 association 147:13 148:11,20 150:4 151:3,17 152:5,8 associations 146:13 147:8,11,19 148:3,7 148:24 149:16 assume 55:4 88:2,4 131:25 assumed 36:7 assumes 93:1 103:24 assuming 66:25 70:6 86:9 103:20 assumption 100:5 128:20 129:25 astray 24:19 attached 27:11 28:17 51:8 83:15,17 96:4 98:12,15,15 99:9 attempt 167:18 attempted 191:25 attend 151:11 attending 153:5 attorney 2:21 198:16 attorneys 2:2,19 10:17 12:21 13:4,15 153:15 Audi 112:3,9 August 9:21 authority 168:1 authorizes 168:2 automobile 82:10 152:3 automotive 25:10,10 25:13,16 118:14 142:15 148:19 149:8 150:13 151:17 152:3 152:8 automotive-related 25:22 available 18:18 19:10 93:19 125:14 130:9 142:25 173:4 180:6 Avenue 3:4 average 102:25 182:18 182:22 awards 144:7,9,10 aware 16:8 62:19 63:4 63:6,6,15 65:3,10,18 67:14 76:13 84:10 Airbert Kolms Voi. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 2 85:4 87:24 95:6 100:17 101:1 104:7 113:11 116:22 118:24 119:15,16 122:6 135:3,4,5 139:24 148:17 149:13,17,17 156:4 168:16 172:3 180:22 187:7 191:21 192:4 193:18 195:3 axle 51:10 A'S 152:7 a.m 1:18 B ________ back 6:4,9 13:4 15:20 20:13 21:10 24:18,18 24:20 27:12 29:22 33:22 34:3 38:11 44:2,3 50:25 62:18 63:16 74:1 75:16 77:2 93:13,17 95:24 96:1 97:24 106:16 107:7 115:13 126:15 145:22 161:1,18 162:3 163:16 166:7 169:18 175:3 176:2 182:5 185:8 background 24:19 25:3 backgrounds 123:15 ban 62:1,7 63:13,25 banned 62:6 base 150:25 176:1 179:14 based 33:12 71:25 150:25 176:22 177:1 177:2,21 178:4 181:24,25 184:20 188:21 192:5 basic 25:21 35:2 118:13 basically 9:24 17:1 32:5,13,17 33:8 41:21 42:12 94:12 96:13 114:11 123:6 157:15 169:11 174:24 175:25 188:2 194:5 basis 8:12 49:8 50:19 58:6 101:24 155:2 179:12 191:1 beater 70:4 Beetle 39:18,19 56:16 Beetles 155:14,15,18 began 9:22 55:18 66:18 111:15 112:11 143:10 149:14 beginning 56:1 64:14 ... behalf 51:24 52:4,6,7 52:10 77:25 150:4 177:16 belated 95:16 belief 45:21 believe 7:2 18:7 19:18 20:2 24:4 60:8,16 89:14 167:13 174:20 184:15 187:17 believed 17:4 BELLUCK3.3 belong 148:3 belonged 146:14 147:19 148:7 173:23 benefit 149:4 Berufsgenossenschaft 185:15,24 186:2 189:7 190:6 191:6 194:8,16 196:5,10 best 9:15 28:4 110:23 111:1,4,8 122:16 better 9:9 beyond 77:24 150:2 151:13 birth 145:17,22 bit 10:2 42:1 182:21 bizarre 75:22 blanche 162:25 blue 143:5,8 board 123:17 190:3 191:12,14 193:24 194:4,7,11 196:13 body 54:18,18 113:21 113:25 book 64:20 books 118:17 119:8,12 boss 27:14 bought 27:14 109:18 109:20 134:8 bound 82:22 box 114:10,15 boxes 83:15 84:3,4,8 85:23,25 86:8 87:8 87:16,23 boy 26:5 brake 15:4,9 16:7 18:10 26:1,2,10,16 26:22,25 27:6,7,11 27:11,12,18,18,19,20 27:22,23,25 28:1,7 28:12,14,16,16,22 29:12,15,19 32:14 33:1,6 35:3,8,20 36:10,11,14,18 37:7 38:18 39:5,6,14,18 40:2,7 41:12,15,24 43:1,5,6,11,14,23,24 44:20,21,22 45:9,25 46:13,14,18,21 47:3 47:3,5,6,7 48:16 49:25 51:3,5,8,9,10 51:18 52:14 55:16,22 56:4,8 57:1,17,19 58:16,19 59:14,23 60:17 61:5,11,12,14 61:21 67:20,22 70:14 71:15,18,25 72:6,11 72:21,22 77:15 79:25 80:1 81:6 82:14,20 82:22,23 83:6,16,23 84:3,8 85:10 86:17 86:25 87:2,8 94:6,8 94:25 95:11,17 96:3 96:4,25 97:1,3,15,19 98:10,15 99:12,21,22 101:17,23 102:1,7,7 102:10, 11, 11, 12,12 102:15 103:2,7,12 105:12 107:13 108:4 108:16 112:17,19,23 127:25 130:23 131:5 131:10 133:10,17 135:12,21,25 136:6,9 136:9,13,14,22 137:2 137:4,13,23 138:22 138:22 140:5,12,19 140:19,25 141:6,12 142:5,19 143:1,2 150:20,20,24 151:7 157:12,14 159:14,22 164:19,20 171:7,14 171:21,25 172:8,11 172:13,17,20 173:5 173:10,19,20,23 174:1,10 175:8 176:1 176:2 180:24 182:19 182:20 183:4 186:19 186:22 187:11,19 188:9,23 195:12,21 brakes 16:15 24:6 32:7 32:10,11,17,20,22,22 32:23,23 33:12,17 39:10,11 51:9 56:22 62:3 67:18 69:13,24 70:18 71:4 82:25 87:25 97:23 99:9,11 99:18 100:8,18 101:6 101:9,12 104:15 105:21 136:13 142:6 142:9 147:10 151:13 173:8 176:8,11 182:25 195:4 brand 31:10 Braunschweig 9:4 25:6 96:17 105:4,6 break 62:12,14 102:22 104:9 106:23 182:11 breathing 127:7,10,18 bring 24:20 163:15 bringing 187:22 broad 21:11 57:8 109:14 117:11 156:16 brochures 106:9 broke 138:22 brought 5:24 91:22 brownish 94:11,13 Brunswick 9:7,9,10 bug-shaped 32:2 built 55:20 bunch 163:10 burden 7:1,14 bus 31:5,6,7,20,20 buses 31:22 business 67:15 109:4 159:9 business-related 159:7 bus-shaped 32:5 buy 68:20 109:11 184:10 buying 71:9 buys 109:16 B-E-R-U-F-S-G-E-N... 185:17 B-R-A-U-N-S-C-H-... 9:6 C C 1:11 3:1 calculation 25:23 caliper 57:1 call 5:19 10:10 31:5 39:23 58:5 128:7 162:6 182:5 called 1:12 31:18 34:6 34:11 64:9,11 66:1 105:7 123:22 152:5 152:23 197:2 cancer 66:14 67:10 capable 91:8 capacity 139:5 captured 131:9 car 24:1,2,14 26:11,16 28:8 30:8 36:11 39:9 50:3 61:10 68:20 71:10 83:11 109:18 109:19,20,24,25 110:20,21 111:16 113:16,19,21,23,25 114:3,9,10,11,15,16 115:3,8,10,11 141:19 142:1,7,9 147:9,12 147:15 155:15 160:23,24,25 161:1,8 161:24 162:2 171:20 | 171:24 172:3 176:5 182:20,25 188:1,14 j card 119:6 j care 27:3 53:3,10 91:25 j 187:10 career 31:1 189:3 careful 74:5 76:10 cargo 32:4 Carl 3:8 82:10 90:23 1 168:18 | cars 23:17,20,20,24 j 24:5,6 26:19 31:11 | 31:17 36:20 37:5,8 38:7 42:11 43:5,24 44:5 49:18 51:18 52:24 53:7 54:15,19 54:25 68:25 71:7 I 99:2,7 114:19,21 | 115:2,14,23 116:5,12 117:20 140:11,20,25 | 141:2,23 142:14 | 161:5,18 162:3 165:5 I 166:6 170:5 183:3 carte 162:25 case 5:20 6:2,14 7:20 | 8:1,7,17 13:13 15:8 | 15:24,25 16:5 41:6 ! 73:10,14,17,25 74:6 I 75:3,10 76:19 77:25 I 78:13 107:18 162:20 j 163:10,13 164:15 165:20 166:21 168:5 J 168:14 177:23 178:11 181:19 I cast 74:19 127:11,12 130:15 JI catalog 119:6 | caused 179:3 f caution 68:3,6 69:12,21 | 83:4 133:11 | cautions 82:24 | ceased 59:10 | center 20:9 | certain 38:23 42:8 85:2 | 93:8 112:5 116:23 f 124:16 130:14 f 156:22 162:7 175:9 I 190:13 j certainly 18:18 36:22 ! 64:6,24 66:4 92:13 100:23 104:21 119:19 136:11 137:2 , 159:5 170:8 178:20 186:20 187:7,23 ! CERTIFICATE 198:1 | certification 2:3 53:23 ; 200:1 I Airbert Kolms Voi. No. January 29, 2004 Wallv. Asbestos Page 3 certified 123:17 200:1 certify 198:5,15 200:6 challenge 189:23 change 13:3 15:22 43:17 56:25 58:13,22 58:24 59:1 191:8 changed 10:2 30:14 61:15 110:18 charge 2:21 22:19 CHARLES 3:8 check 35:23 37:1 47:11 50:12 51:2,13 87:14 87:20 96:9 98:6,13 99:10 100:6,15 101:13 106:6 116:15 123:3 130:12 137:2 149:19 173:4 191:15 checked 40:8 142:4 Checking 191:19 chemicals 123:2 193:6 chemistry 25:21 118:13 chest 121:13 193:7 Chicago 14:7,10,13 15:7,15 151:19 choice 56:20 101:5 164:6 167:5 choices 32:1 choose 135:11,15 chose 170:12 chosen 5:16 170:15,16 chrysotile 48:4,5,6,20 49:9 50:20 179:20 184:16 circumference 97:16 circumstances 156:7 156:11 165:12 city 1:3 9:3 183:1 199:13 Civil 1:14 claim 18:15 115:6 132:4,9,10,11,13 162:24 167:2,22 185:8,13 189:20,23 190:3,3 191:13 claimed 189:18 claims 117:2 131:15,18 133:2,5 134:25 185:3 186:11,12 189:1,5,7 189:8 191:2 clarification 41:4 92:23 105:10 clarified 75:13 clarify 18:1 36:2 90:6 90:24 91:24 92:20 clarifying 7:16,20 clarity 157:25 clear 19:21 57:15 73:24 79:16 89:7 97:18 109:13 154:7 168:7 clearly 78:1 Clerk 2:9 client 163:25 closed 13:13 closely 122:19 closer 43:17 closing 92:9,11 clutch 15:4 16:7 28:24 28:25 29:12,15,19 47:12,15,23 48:17,19 49:9,11 50:2,10,19 71:15 72:1,6,21 77:15 80:1 81:7 83:8 86:25 94:14,16 97:6 97:14 133:11,17 140:6,12 141:1,13 171:8,15 172:1,11,21 173:11 176:16 180:24 186:19,22 188:10,23 clutches 16:15 24:6 32:8,10,12,17,21,22 67:19 69:14,24 70:15 70:18 71:5,18 72:11 83:1 87:3,9,25 99:12 99:13,18 100:3,8,18 101:7,12 104:15 141:6 171:21 172:8 172:14 176:16 186:19 195:4 coat 176:1 coauthor 52:18 code 173:18,25 174:2 175:1,12 176:3,9 184:9 187:19 codes 184:1,1,3 coefficient 174:15 collared 143:5,8 collect 74:23 75:5 collision-related 152:4 color 94:6,15 159:16 colors 94:21 column 52:21 combination 132:19 152:2 come 38:23 40:1,8 43:17 46:17 61:19,20 63:20 74:1 75:16 77:2 113:22 124:14 156:23 194:2 comes 8:4 11:21 16:13 43:13 68:12 105:17 112:3 coming 48:24 87:16 117:2 141:25 commencing 1:18 comment 75:23 comments 58:8 196:21 committed 54:23 55:1 committee 150:20,20 150:24 151:7 committees 147:10 150:13 common 34:21 48:15 124:14,17 135:17 148:20 192:11 communicate 44:19 90:4,5 116:24 117:5 160:4,17 161:21 188:7 communicated 87:24 115:4 116:20 117:25 communication 40:18 72:10 107:15 114:24 117:12,14,20 140:4 147:15 160:7 180:22 communications 55:5 94:1 106:10,14 107:8 114:21 117:9 companies 33:25 38:17 40:4,7 45:25 91:20 98:10 101:18 106:10 106:15 109:24,25 110:20 111:17 133:10,17,22 134:7 134:11,25 135:21 141:18 171:8 172:12 172:16 174:18 191:10 company 27:3 34:6,11 34:16,19 38:1,4 40:8 48:12 88:2,17,18,20 108:24 109:4,11,16 109:18,20 112:3 121:6,7,14,15 122:19 134:6,14,17 140:4 148:21 150:8 154:9 170:2,3 174:8 181:10 186:6 191:7 company's 108:9 compare 142:17 183:2 183:20,21 compared 118:15 compatible 36:5 compelled 164:2 compensable 66:19,22 132:22 compensated 65:12 132:23 186:1 compensation 65:4,7 65:20,24 66:8 132:11 185:3 186:11,12 189:5,7 190:2,6,12 191:12,14 192:17 193:24 194:1 competition 142:16 competitive 141:12 142:20 complaint 132:8 178:3 192:20,23 complete 164:4 167:9,9 completed 16:1 182:1,8 completely 38:14 163:25 compliance 10:4 30:3 comply 43:17 44:21 60:24 61:1,1 135:18 188:5 component 29:16,19 32:11 73:6 79:4,7,10 79:13,14,18,20 80:2 80:10 81:13,24 82:5 82:19 83:5 84:17 104:16 105:12 171:1 composition 41:11,14 41:24 46:21 compound 44:1 60:11 60:14 80:13 104:18 concept 74:22 91:3 concern 75:6 127:17,23 concerned 30:24 37:16 concluded 197:11 concluding 50:19 condition 115:12,24 116:6 192:6,7,13 conditions 162:7,8 conduct 73:18 75:20 124:19 conducted 77:6 93:18 112:16,18,21 113:1 113:14 122:7 125:7 160:1 172:12 confer 77:20 conference 153:5 conferences 151:11 confused 27:25 42:16 confusing 34:22 37:20 37:21 connection 30:5 consider 58:25 59:5 177:22 consideration 35:11 145:3 considered 75:1 consists 194:4 constantly 70:24 constituents 138:23 159:15 183:16 constitute 200:7 constrained 73:15 construction 25:23 consultations 178:5 consulting 193:12 consumer 176:4 contact 20:19,24 69:24 69:25 70:16 71:3,16 115:9 116:22 123:2 135:17 159:6 178:19 179:22 190:7 193:23 contain 59:24 60:9 102:1 109:6 contained 46:15 48:20 49:9 50:20 56:8 72:22 77:17 79:4,7 80:2,10,15,23 81:13 82:5,7,12 87:8 101:1 108:25 110:15 118:11 126:17 140:11 170:6 199:9 containing 60:17 82:17 83:19 content 41:20 42:4,9,10 43:2 67:19,23 69:13 70:17,22 71:25 83:16 85:3 86:18 87:25 140:5 contents 42:24 46:24 context 85:8,9 continents 91:10 continue 6:24 93:14 continuing 167:13 contracted 132:17,19 185:22,25 195:13,23 contracting 186:9 contractual 134:4 control 115:11 controlling 2:17 conversation 6:15 43:14 45:20 48:18 50:17 89:22 101:21 101:24 156:12 157:1 157:9,10 158:4,24 159:1,3,4,24 163:6 172:6 conversations 33:16 108:7 159:24 197:7 copies 12:23 45:8 copy 2:20 13:5 85:16 85:19 185:8 200:1,7 corporate 72:25 75:17 134:1 148:14,16 164:24 corporation 177:16 correct 17:4 38:19 49:19,22,25 50:11 58:22 59:6,7 68:13 69:17 80:17 87:3 97:21 102:13 107:16 107:21 130:13 135:6 135:9 154:14 171:18 Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 4 174:22 176:6 180:9 181:6,7 184:16,21 186:23 188:24 189:11,12 196:1 198:13,20 199:9 200:7,12 correction 13:3 15:25 16:1 64:25 corrections 199:7 Correspondence 21:13 counsel 6:9 20:17 55:6 55:7 77:19 177:19 178:5 196:24 COUNTIES 1:1 counting 124:15 countries 11:16 12:1 141:7 country 8:25 11:17 141:1 183:1 185:18 counts 124:19 125:1,4 125:11 137:4 COUNTY 199:2 couple 5:22 15:16 29:21 104:8 108:8 126:14 143:5 150:12 156:6 157:7,23 182:14 course 6:21 53:25 60:3 138:12,20 150:15 161:9 courses 25:15,19 court 1:1,23 2:10 11:11 12:10,12 75:9,24 76:5,19 77:13 108:15 162:24 163:23 165:25 166:25 167:5 168:24 169:1 185:16 196:16,19 courtroom 12:14 Courts 1:14 cover 76:20 130:17 168:22 covered 28:17 128:5,7 128:21 176:18 194:3 194:17 covering 75:25 179:13 179:22 CPLR2:13,15,17 crash 150:6 152:4 create 17:18 credible 18:8 19:19 critical 6:13 curious 5:12 153:1 current 145:22 curriculum 145:12 customer 103:3 116:22 117:2 customers 184:4 --- --------------------------- " cut 73:13 cuts 192:23 CV 144:19 C-A-S-T 127:14 D D 1:15 4:1 198:4,24 200:5,16 daily 117:19 damage 103:12 danger 124:7 191:8 dangerous 85:3 179:14 dangers 93:20 dark 94:11,12 data 189:24 190:1 database 119:11 date 21:10 61:8 106:16 145:17,21 Dated 198:21 200:13 dates 145:22 daughter 145:25 day 17:13,14,15 142:17 163:16 170:17 198:21 199:11 200:13 days 6:6 29:22 78:4 92:22 125:13 169:15 169:19 deal 38:22 72:10 151:25 189:4 dealer 31:9 90:13 92:2 115:10,10 187:24 dealers 70:16 72:5 91:21 115:4 160:8,15 188:8,15 dealership 87:11 88:3,8 88:8,10,14 188:19 dealerships 88:11 160:6 dealing 16:12 52:20 64:5 105:5 152:1 170:1,2 dealt 75:11 decades 34:18 December 77:7 decide 150:14 decided 43:17 190:5 196:7 decision 194:10 decision-making 173:7 declare 198:18 199:5 200:10 decomposition 58:16 deemed 2:16 defective 32:17 160:23 defendant 3:6 5:13 7:5 8:15 78:7 defendants 5:22 6:3 8:19 deficient 6:11 definition 109:19 degree 25:7 29:20 degrees 123:17 174:13 174:14 deletions 199:7 department 49:1,6 50:18 64:5,10,13,13 64:21 66:17 67:3,5 84:9 105:5,7 119:20 119:25 120:7 122:4 122:14 127:11 130:15 132:2,15 135:25 136:6,9,22 137:4,14 138:22 139:11 142:6,20 143:2 154:18 158:22 173:5 193:4 departments 122:20 123:1 department's 119:22 depending 41:18,24 42:5 56:5 94:18 182:24 183:5 192:12 depends 25:18 38:21 47:17 56:2,15 58:23 61:6 103:3,4 192:22 depo 15:24 16:5,20 deposed 12:13 deposition 1:4,11,13 5:11 6:5,17,25 7:10 10:11 12:7 13:17 14:1,10,25 15:4,6,14 16:2,9 17:7,11,19 20:17 39:1 50:15 57:18 73:1,12 75:17 75:25 76:8,9,24 78:3 78:7 81:3 108:16 111:22 146:6 155:25 163:8 164:23 166:16 166:19 167:13 168:8 169:15 170:17 177:15,24 178:17 200:8 depositions 13:16 14:4 15:3,20,22 16:16 76:20 deprived 8:5 describe 27:5 130:22 described 9:15 describes 16:22 describing 18:9,12 description 4:8 85:4 design 104:23 105:12 171:6 designated 177:12 designation 75:17 ...... ..... designed 176:3 Designee 164:24 designs 141:24 desired 177:18 desirous 199:8 desk 192:9 destroy 13:11,12 deteriorate 136:24 175:6 deteriorated 186:21,23 187:2 determination 33:11 38:17 167:12 181:10 determine 20:23 35:24 47:20 116:16 117:13 117:25 138:23 176:5 181:5 determined 43:12 141:4 determining 39:13 124:6 Detroit 52:19 151:15 development 30:6 diagnose 185:21 diagnosed 190:16 diameter 96:12 differ 42:1 differed 42:4 difference 51:6 76:17 141:7 197:4 different 38:4 40:22,22 40:23 41:22,24 42:9 42:9 43:7 46:24 47:18 70:25 73:8 75:9 79:22 88:18,19 90:20 91:3,10 92:16 94:20 95:15 96:10 98:8 102:16 104:5 122:20 136:15,16 141:7,23,24 147:24 151:20 159:15 171:8 171:12 173:11 174:16,16,17 192:5 differentiation 140:24 141:6 difficult 6:18 digit 174:11,14 digits 173:21 direct 93:7 182:1,9 directed 78:12 directions 117:1 directive 7:15,16,20 directly 78:12 160:18 disagreement 74:12 disc 28:1 51:9 discarded 13:19 discover 129:23,24 156:14 157:19 discovery 73:16,18 75:2 167:25 181:19 182:7 discussed 101:18 105:25 106:11 176:24 178:2,12 181:16 discussing 81:1 104:3 discussion 7:13 9:11 29:11 43:15 48:10,11 48:18 73:24 112:1 153:4 156:21,21 169:8 discussions 58:4 disease 66:19,23 122:8 ! 132:17,18,22 185:22 185:25 186:9 190:11 190:17 195:13,23 diseases 122:22 179:18 179:18 186:13 disk 13:22,23 r disputes 182:3 distance 33:4 distances 136:16 distinction 79:21 distinguish 102:8,19 distributed 108:25 distributing 109:6 distribution 20:9 21:7 21:13 31:8 distributor 115:12 division 30:16 doctor 120:9 122:10 123:21,23 132:18 185:6,20,21 192:17 192:18 193:2,12 doctors 120:8,13 122:7 122:13,18 123:5,8,12 123:16,20 124:6 192:19,21 document 1:4 17:3 94:3 117:24 169:12 documentation 22:2 37:2 documents 6:8,12,22 21:20 45:8,14 63:24 64:2 93:19,25 106:14 , 159:8 167:7 170:18 f 181:5,9 I doing 27:6,21 62:18 78:3 110:23 111:1 | 122:23 131:10 134:8 164:7 167:19,20 > 184:14 domain 51:25 52:8 door 32:4 doors 32:4 ; double 174:11 * Airbert Kolms Voi. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 5 doubt 118:23 125:13 125:15 136:5 173:3 drawing 79:21 171:6 drawings 37:1 driver 182:24 183:5 drives 182:24 driving 103:3,5 drum 27:10,16,18,19 51:8,9 96:13 97:4,15 103:12 176:13 drums 28:2 99:12,15 due 8:5 131:18 132:17 132:19,20 144:4 185:25 190:11 duly 5:2 dust 41:22 124:15,19 124:25 125:4,11 126:24 127:1 137:4 duties 10:1 122:21 duty 30:14 126:7,10 E E 3:l, 1,84:1 earlier 50:14 53:20 69:7 155:25 171:13 182:5 early 21:10 26:6 32:25 55:25 63:13 64:7,16 66:4 86:1,2 144:5 easy 163:4 edge 173:18 174:2,3,4 174:25 175:12 176:3 183:25 184:1,9 edit 50:15 editor 52:23 53:1,2,3 educate 53:21 educating 10:7 53:21 education 11:8 25:20 54:1 145:23 effect 2:9 effectiveness 33:1 effort 20:23 70:16,21 71:16 efforts 69:25 71:3 Eighty-six 140:18 eight-year 25:20 either 13:17 18:9 29:12 70:16 78:24 87:25 92:9 100:8 107:9 108:14,15,24 121:11 128:7,12 133:10 149:21 150:3 173:13 176:1 188:7 electron 139:12,21 elongated 58:8 embossed 100:8,11,18 173:12 emergency 193:3 employed 9:12 121:12 121:12 124:3 employee 52:6 133:6 144:11 150:14 185:12,20 186:9 189:2,18,23 190:11 191:20 198:16 employees 67:15 121:3 126:18 127:9 130:9 130:24 131:16,18 148:15 185:4 191:2,8 192:5 193:14 194:1,4 194:12 196:14 employer 185:10 186:5 191:16 194:2,4,4,12 194:18 196:13 employers 145:11 employment 16:23 145:22 189:19 encourage 168:20 ended 55:19 Energit 34:6,11,25 35:4,12,20 39:10 41:12 82:18 96:2 106:11,15 107:9 108:15 133:21 134:14 135:11 175:17,18 183:13 energy 52:20 engineer 9:16,18 10:1 11:4,7 18:3,4 19:5 57:5 143:4 148:6 179:13 engineering 19:7 25:5 25:9,10,11,13,17 53:22 57:17 58:11 118:14 147:23 148:19 152:2 engineers 10:7,7 53:21 57:19 149:9 English 145:7 enjoy 170:22 entered 93:16 entire 17:7,10 27:15 112:6 114:9 153:11 154:7 170:13 175:14 175:16,17 193:18 entitled 1:13 78:5 191:6 entity 111:6 EPA 61:23,24 62:7,25 63:1 EPE 36:21 37:4 38:5 62:17,23,24 156:4,15 156:19,24 157:2,11 157:12 158:18 159:6 159:9,25 160:1 168:11 equipment 36:4,8,19 37:3,5,7 50:11 55:22 71:21 79:3,5,6,13,15 80:2,10 98:16 105:25 130:9 136:8 159:17 180:5 equipped 55:21 equivalent 65:23 185:18 ESQ 3:3,8,8 estimate 154:25 155:3 estimated 155:13 estimating 155:12 Etch 174:3 etchings 174:18 Euro 31:12 European 36:21 43:21 45:18 156:1,4 157:2 evaluation 25:23 event 6:21 169:3 events 73:2 everybody 62:8 118:15 119:18 184:5,9 evidence 39:4 67:1 70:7 185:25 exact 97:3 120:24 exactly 16:10 26:6 71:22 114:8 128:21 140:14 154:24 158:17 183:13,15 184:2 examination 1:4,12 2:4 2:12,20 4:3 5:5 16:25 121:8 123:4 193:5 198:10 examinations 193:5 examined 5:3 14:25 132:18 example 39:17 110:14 121:1 142:5 175:17 excerpts 17:8 exchange 27:13 36:21 156:1,4 157:2 exchanged 116:23 excluding 55:5 exclusion 30:22 exclusively 88:15 excuse 20:6 51:22 86:22 177:10 EXECUTED 199:11 exhaust 129:14 130:3 exhausts 129:17 EXHIBITS 4:7 exist 45:19 119:4 120:19 136:2 138:17 146:19 151:22 152:21 181:5,18 182:4 existed 34:11 106:20 114:21 117:14 118:21 120:22,22 147:9 156:5,8 170:3 170:20 189:20 existence 64:14 66:3 120:4 exists 118:20 expect 128:17 expecting 5:18 experience 7:8 19:14 expert 19:1,6,14 57:17 58:11,25 59:5 129:1 expertise 16:11 119:21 explain 25:15 153:2 182:21 exposed 58:20 178:23 193:6 exposure 7:6 131:19 153:6,14 154:10 179:16 180:11 express 116:3 expressed 116:3 expression 127:22 extend 170:16 extent 6:17 58:22 77:23 136:23 163:22 181:12,23 extremely 109:14 eyes 178:17 E-D-G-E 174:4 F F 174:12,14 face 70:15 faces 50:20 140:12 188:24 facilities 118:7 126:17 facility 20:4,7,20,25 120:13 164:19 168:12 facing 28:24,25 50:2 97:14 172:21 facings 15:4 16:7 29:12 29:15,19 47:12,16,23 48:17,20 49:9,11 50:1071:15 72:1,7 72:21 77:16 80:1 81:7 83:8 94:14 97:6 133:11,17 140:6 141:1,13 171:8,15 172:1,11 173:12 180:25 186:19,22 188:10 fact 15:23 146:10 184:20 factor 57:3 factory 39:23 64:5 96:11,16,18 118:10 132:20 facts 66:25 70:6 91:13 92:17 93:1 191:12 196:25 factual 155:2 | factually 50:13 Fahrenheit 174:13 ! fair 26:8 44:23 45:6 51:3 67:12 92:5 f 97:20,22,25 138:10 155:23 173:23 familiar 23:12 34:8,25 1 37:5 95:10 104:2 114:20 family 73:3 146:1 far 10:16 13:19 30:24 : 39:4 67:12 69:16 74:12 76:25 89:19 106:11 138:8 141:9 ; 148:8 151:22 168:7 : 173:6 179:18 191:11 federal 132:21 feedback 185:10 186:5 1 190:20,24 I feel 73:15,17 78:4 , feeling 19:4 1 feels 132:16 185:20 felt 192:15 j FF 174:12 ; Fiat 29:5,6 fiber 41:21 112:17,18 172:13 fibers 112:22 113:2,14 1 178:20,20,24 179:3,7 j field 16:11 25:22 119:20 j figure 39:11 40:6 46:2 50:12 64:21 87:21 124:17 126:13 ! figured 177:20 : file 17:1 35:22 41:9 | 186:10 i files 38:19 1 filing 2:3 filler 41:21 final 115:11 financially 198:17 | FINBERG 3:8 36:2,15 f 37:9,12,14,18 42:23 45:17 50:4 51:15 , 53:15 55:4 57:15,25 | 58:10 59:8 64:1 f 69:18 72:20,23 73:2 : 73:21 74:2,10,14,17 75:19 76:1 77:18 : 82:9 90:8,19 91:9,12 \ 91:19 92:5,13,24 L Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 6 93:3,15 103:23 109:13 110:23 111:4 111:23 117:15 125:10 127:3 128:13 128:23 129:18 131:22 137:8 141:16 141:19 142:8,12 145:5,11,16,21 146:2 146:7 148:9 150:6,9 151:13 154:11 162:12 164:9,14 165:1,16 166:5 167:1 167:16 168:18 169:17 175:12 180:15 189:6 190:22 194:16 195:8,15 196:15,22 197:5 find 34:23 36:12,13 37:2 63:20 93:23 117:23 121:24,24 122:2 143:16 150:22 156:7 161:1 173:5 178:7,10 191:25 192:1 195:2 finders 146:9 fine 62:13 84:6 90:5 92:18 finger 192:24 finish 107:1,3 163:8 168:21 finished 162:11 firm 14:10,24 74:20 first 5:2 16:22 24:22 25:25 27:17 29:18,22 29:25 31:16 32:6 33:10,15 34:10 39:19 40:8 56:7,13 60:20 62:5 66:5,5 80:6 85:20 108:22 111:15 118:6 119:2 146:25 156:3 157:4,19 161:4 167:24 168:4 170:25 174:12 182:20 183:4 186:4 192:16 fit 96:13 97:3 five 102:23 111:14 157:24 162:12 flange 173:19 176:1 187:8 flat 97:16 Floor 3:4 flying 129:8 folks 65:2 156:9 follow 38:24 178:8 followed 163:22 follows 5:3 follow-up 78:22 88:24 89:5 182:15 foot 33:5 force 2:9 136:16,18,20 foregoing 198:6,13,19 199:6,8 200:6,11 forever 34:12,13 125:17 166:20 Forget 110:21 forgot 38:12 form2:5 55:2 58:1 70:3 83:13 120:23,24 formal 195:2,7,8,9 formed 196:13 former 9:8 forming 127:16 forms 114:24 formula 61:15 forth 198:7 forward 7:9 79:1 foundation 64:1 183:19 four 35:6 38:17 40:4,7 40:9 46:5 94:19 95:18 97:18 98:9 99:7 101:18 106:10 106:15 122:5 155:4,9 155:11,14 four-line 145:8 Fox 3:3,3 4:4 5:6,9,15 5:20 6:1 7:9,14 8:8 8:10,13,21,24 10:13 10:24 18:6 22:5 23:1 24:2,12,16 33:21 37:11,13,16 38:13,21 39:16 41:1 42:17,20 42:25 44:6 50:6 52:5 52:11 53:10,13,17 55:18,24 57:9,11,24 58:3 59:9 60:21 62:13 63:10 65:8,13 65:22 66:24 68:10,15 68:19 69:5 70:8,11 71:7,22 72:25 73:8 73:20,23 74:4 75:8 75:22 76:6 77:1,5,13 77:21 78:14 79:6,12 80:18,24 81:4,18,23 83:8 84:1,6 86:8,11 88:22 89:9,15,18,25 90:15 91:6,11,15,22 92:4,8,18 93:2,5,10 93:14 95:24 97:8 98:19 99:17 102:23 103:22 104:1,6,19 105:14,22 106:22 107:5 109:8,23 110:18 111:1,21 113:6 115:7,17 117:13,16 120:15,24 121:7,15 125:7 127:4 129:20 131:24 134:1 134:5 137:10,24 141:18,21 142:11 144:25 146:5,9,24 147:5,21 148:10 150:1,7 151:14 152:12 153:3 160:11 162:1 163:19 164:12 164:22 165:13,17,22 166:2,8,17,23 167:3 168:6 169:1,9,22 170:1 171:4 177:4 178:7 181:12 182:13 183:18 184:22 186:17 187:4 189:9 192:25 194:25 195:19,25 196:3,18 197:1,6,10 frame 45:12 46:9 60:20 64:25 94:9,10 114:12 115:16 116:7 128:13 130:3 137:10 1.40:1 159:18 161:4 170:12 170:14 172:25 frankly 5:16 7:7 8:4 78:2 93:13 free 38:8 free-for-all 146:5 friable 178:20,24 friction 33:1,12 34:17 58:17 136:23 173:21 174:12,15 friends 26:19 front 32:5 51:10 102:6 function 123:9 129:3 funded 113:1 furnished 2:20 further 2:7,11,14,18 7:15 75:21 78:10 89:21 182:6 198:15 future 62:6 garage 187:24 gear 184:19 gears 101:4 general 36:6 41:16 50:22 52:14,15 68:2 85:9 86:23 95:2,13 96:23 107:18 118:8 119:15 130:10,11 137:25 138:1 139:10 143:18,22,23 147:11 156:21 158:19 166:4 167:24,25 168:2 183:2 191:9 generally 11:20 15:9 43:20 65:15 73:9 74:5 75:18 84:25 118:4 129:20 147:22 generation 31:13 German 65:8,16 66:18 66:21 145:6,7 149:7 151:3 189:16 190:2 192:16 193:23 germane 165:11 Germany 9:1,2 49:19 65:24 84:10 114:5,7 114:25 123:22 124:4 134:15,18 144:23 147:8,16 149:5 161:14,18 162:4 183:3 getting 27:1,6 29:10,14 76:18 89:3 105:19 123:1 138:7 178:19 184:10 give 11:21 53:19 63:14 89:15 145:4 155:2 161:4 177:15 192:9 given 13:8 25:16 53:6 55:6,7 108:15 121:5 121:13 169:10 180:4 180:7 . gives 162:25 184:7 glanced 16:21 glasses 126:24 129:9 global 73:18 75:6 78:3 go 5:23 7:9,12 31:9 34:3 50:25 76:24 77:21 89:18,20 93:25 95:24 96:1 103:7 108:21 122:2 153:1 160:20 163:4,5 164:6 169:6,13,19 175:7 176:5 178:15 185:6 192:16,21 193:1 goal 45:2 goes 25:22 77:24 114:3 185:13,20 going 5:10,13 6:20 39:8 51:13,21 58:4,7,19 62:1,6,10 68:19 73:4 89:13 96:24 117:17 117:22 132:22 144:25 162:16 165:13 166:17 168:3 169:4,9 170:8 196:16 good 5:7,8 115:23 116:6 135:22 165:1 goods 129:2 gotten 64:7 governing 1:14 government 65:3,6,21 66:16,18,21 171:12 194:2 governmental 54:18 64:6,7 65:17 196:11 196:12,14 governs 76:19 162:25 Grasso 3:8 4:5 5:12,18 5:25 6:16 7:1,24 8:9 8:11,18,23 10:12,20 17:24 18:5 19:21 21:11 22:3,13,24 23:23 24:8,13 27:22 27:24 28:10,21 31:24 33:19 35:16 39:2 41:4,8 42:15 43:7 44:1,4,8,11,14 45:11 46:4 49:23 51:5,11 52:3,9,25 53:8,11 54:20 55:17,20 56:10 57:8,10,12,23 58:1 59:18 60:4,11,14,19 61:17 62:10,21 63:8 65:6,10,15,19 66:20 66:25 67:20 68:8,14 68:17,22 69:3,6 70:3 70:9,19 71:6,8,20 72:8 73:13 74:8,11 74:16 76:1,4,22 77:3 77:9,23 79:5,9,16 80:4,12,16,19,25 81:11,20,24 82:3 83:6,9,24 84:4 85:22 86:6,9 87:15 88:7,11 88:18,21 89:7,11,16 89:24 90:12 91:21 92:1,22 93:9,12,21 94:8 95:16,21 97:7,9 98:17 99:15 102:3,21 103:20 104:4,17 105:10,18,23 106:24 109:7 110:13,17,19 111:19,24 113:4,8 114:12,23 115:2,5,16 115:20116:7 117:11 117:19 118:2 120:14 120:21 121:5,14 122:16125:5 126:3 132:4 133:24 134:3 137:23 138:7 140:13 141:14 142:13 144:19 145:2,19 146:11,22 147:20,24 148:13 149:23 152:10,18,25 156:16 157:25 159:18 160:9 160:13 161:3,23 162:9,15 165:21,23 166:3,6,15,19 169:4 169:24 170:24 171:3 172:25 174:3 177:1 Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 7 177:10 178:4,14 180:10 181:1 182:10 182:14,17 186:16 187:1,5,14,21 189:25 192:7,22 193:1,21 194:6 195:1 196:4 197:3,9 grave 75:6 gray 94:11 grayish 94:13 great 138:15 grind 97:1,17 127:25 129:7 grinded 130:23 grinding 58:17 96:15 96:20,24 97:5,11 112:16,19,22 128:4,9 131:5 ground 58:19,21 96:12 group 53:17 55:10,12 149:7 150:4 189:13 guess 15:16 23:11 41:10 44:15 46:6 59:17,19 80:18 101:4 147:3,17 152:24 155:10 160:14 161:13 162:6 185:4 guy 10:21 164:18 guys 6:1 91:8,25 187:12 H half 80:21 162:16 ' 175:9 Halpern 1:15 198:4,24 200:5,16 handle 188:20 handled 39:6 handling 39:14 hands 18:14 179:5 happen 92:3 93:6 127:21 happened 63:15 73:3 86:14 185:11 happens 127:23 harbor 114:3,4,5,7 hard 38:15 Ih$)7iirr1 1?^ ^ 180:23 191:7 hazardous 122:21 124:7 178:21,22 179:6 hazards 68:4 70:1 head 54:13 heads 103:9 health 66:2 67:8 85:3 132:21 185:19 192:20 193:14 hear 157:19 163:9 heard 23:2,3 50:23 157:4 162:18 168:11 heat 57:1 58:18,20,23 59:1 heated 58:21 held 9:11 112:1 153:4 169:8 help 89:16,20 90:24 111:23 146:8 148:9 150:14 166:9,13,17 helpful 130:1 181:14 hereto 2:3,19 HERZFELD 1:16 3:7 hesitated 37:19 high 155:22 highest 155:16 high-powered 139:10 Hinkleday 15:24 Hinkledey 14:16,17 historian 22:22,25 historical 23:9 117:24 181:9 historically 181:9 hold 163:15 holding 93:13 home 150:25 hood 128:10,12,19,22 129:4,8,10,12,14,25 130:5 hoods 128:18 129:16 130:2 hope 87:22 hopefully 97:21 hotter 174:14 hour 62:11 80:20 162:16 hours 80:21 81:1 167:20 Hundreds 138:2,3,4 143:25 hygienist 123:25 hygienists 57:20 124:2 hypothesizing 109:17 H-I-N-K-L-E-D-E-Y 14:18 I idea 39:15 59:15 66:6 120:20 128:6 139:20 155:16 identical 98:23 183:12 183:16 identification 173:20 174:9,11,25 175:9 184:6,8 identified 34:1 ill 192:15 imagine 22:17 105:18 109:17 impairment 191:22 impinger 124:21,22 import 177:22 178:12 important 8:21 57:2 112:2 183:24 187:23 impose 95:16 impossible 6:19 impression 64:18 82:16 82:21 91:2 120:10 183:2 inappropriate 165:14 include 53:14 109:23 including 67:21 82:9 83:15 109:19 187:2 incorrect 16:3 increasement 190:15 indicate 108:1,3 119:8 146:25 indicated 8:2 103:17 163:7 182:4 196:6 indicating 130:17 173:19 individual 160:8,15,24 185:5 190:16,18 individuals 65:11 66:8 71:16 128:3 131:5,10 133:2 148:16 industrial 57:20 123:24 124:2 industry 65:16 124:14 industry-wide 196:8 inform 70:1,17,21,22 71:18 72:5 information 4:15 6:12 6:23 39:22 40:3,16 40:20 45:21 46:3,16 46:17 48:10,16,23 49:2,10 50:8,9,15,21 50:22 55:25 61:22 62:5 63:22 64:7,19 66:13 72:4 74:24 75:5 85:9 88:14 95:7 106:9 107:12,13,18 111:5 112:20 113:22 121:25 126:9,15 128:16 129:21 166:13 184:7 186:15 188:13 informed 88:1 134:25 ingredients 42:24 43:11 44:25 138:25 183:22 initial 8:17 158:4 initially 34:5 injured 132:12 191:3 194:1 injury 131:18 133:2,6 135:1 152:4 189:19 inner 27:10 inquiries 78:11 inquiring 140:5 insi 100:11 inside 150:8 insignia 100:17 101:2 install 95:11 installation 27:15 installed 83:18 136:14 installing 95:17,23 instance 39:23 57:1 61:23 64:17 96:11 99:21 123:2 129:7 137:1 148:18 150:19 160:4 162:2 171:5 185:21 195:21 institute 25:7 institution 190:13 instruct 77:1 78:9 instructed 4:11 77:3 instructions 72:4 78:19 126:18 188:16 insulation 18:14 57:2 179:2,17,20 insurance 186:2 194:3 194:17 intend 62:1 107:3 164:10 166:23 168:23 intended 63:12 intending 63:13 intent 75:20 intention 164:12 interact 193:4 interacted 189:13 interested 26:5 107:20 184:10 198:17 interject 36:3 88:25 89:2 internal 21:21,25 22:1 31:8 63:25 64:4 94:3 94:4 154:15,15 193:4 193:15 international 150:12 150:20,24 151:4,5,7 internet 63:23 118:15 118:17 interrogatories 6:7 7:3 16:24 17:3 34:1 40:4 73:9 163:24 166:1 167:11 169:10 interrogatory 163:23 170:9 interrupt 177:11 introduce 61:2 introduced 60:20 inventory 23:12 118:21 \ investigation 160:1 involved 10:15 12:2 148:7 Ironically 169:1 j Island 1:24 | ISO 43:21 45:18 isolate 57:1 issue 7:21 14:2 15:7 42:7,8 54:2,7 59:8 68:6 79:1 83:3 : 132:14 153:6 154:14 ( 160:5 188:6 193:14 193:19,21 issued 104:10 133:11 issues 15:7,11 25:24 53:22 55:11 57:21 75:11 151:14,25 | 152:1 181:18,20,21 181:21 1 item 41:2 i J January 1:18 198:21 200:8,13 Japan 151:2 job 26:1,2,10,16 27:8 i 30:16 32:13 180:2 182:20 183:4 189:11 \ 192:10 jobs 26:22,25 27:6,21 < 131:10 182:19 195:13 ; joined 147:1 | Jordan 3:3 5:9 J journals 119:2 121:20 : judge 2:10 8:14 196:20 . judging 109:14 | judgment 57:5 | jumping 108:19 1 Juridwerke41:13 i 82:18 96:2 106:11,15 107:9 108:12,14 ; 133:21 134:17 * 135:11 174:8,10 : justified 170:8 | justify 165:19 K I Kassel 84:11 87:17 101:22 keep 13:14 51:21 76:10 :j 125:16 ; kept 21:20 23:9 67:14 115:22 1 Kerry 1:15 198:4,24 200:5,16 kid 29:6 Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. 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Asbestos Page 9 lot 58:12 93:6 162:18 164:5 178:23 love 93:12 lunch 102:22 107:6 162:17 165:10 lung 66:13 67:10 122:8 127:20 179:18 191:22 Luxembourg 134:11 L-E-C-O-Z 158:14 M ___ machine 96:24 128:6 machines 128:8 136:12 Madison 3:4 magazine 54:15 magazines 119:1 main 30:3 127:23 maintain 12:16 13:5 22:12 maintained 13:23 104:25 191:20 maintains 21:9 major 188:6 makers 141:20 making 70:24 199:8 malfunction 161:12 managed 74:11 management 7:21 73:10,14,25 mandate 168:1 manipulating 180:3,13 manipulation 180:19 Manor 1:23 manual 68:13,17,20,21 69:7,10,22 103:21 104:4,5 114:9 161:25 manuals 68:7,9,23,24 69:4,9,11 72:4 103:17 113:22,24 114:17 manufacture 79:14 80:1,9,14,22 81:10 81:12 82:4,7,12 105:16 manufactured 23:21 30:23 32:11 39:25 49:18 50:11 79:3,8 79:17 80:5 82:15 102:9,25 108:24 135:21 142:6,9 159:22 170:5 176:8 187:11,19 manufacturer 21:6 41:25 42:5,7,8,21 43:4,16,16 59:14 62:9 94:19 98:7 104:15,20,21,22 112:5 142:15 147:16 157:14,20 158:1 172:3 173:19 175:14 184:7 manufacturers 42:13 43:23,24 44:20,22 45:9 46:14 61:13,15 95:12,19 97:19 99:7 141:12,17 142:7,10 147:9,12 150:13 171:20,25 172:11,20 172:21 173:11 187:13 manufacturing 71:14 81:8,9 105:15,20,21 106:1 107:13 109:5 112:12 125:20 126:1 126:4,6 140:11 marked 99:13,16,19 173:12 market 34:17 36:16 38:8 49:22,25 61:3 99:1 188:3,4 marking 100:4 173:17 175:7 markings 174:18 186:18,21 mask 18:23 127:7 128:5,12 130:21 180:5 masks 19:10 127:10 128:4 130:13,16,18 Massachusetts 20:20 Master 75:14 78:25 masters 25:8,12,16 27:1,6 29:11,15 master's 7:22 8:1 25:6 material 56:20 57:18 63:14 83:18,19 108:20 122:21 129:8 129:11 136:23 182:6 materials 52:17 59:16 72:9,18 107:24 118:11,21 124:7 133:12 180:4,20 mathematics 25:22 matter 5:10 15:23 16:12 57:6,12 74:25 163:17 matters 10:8,18 11:1 53:22 mean 19:22 26:4,18 29:20 30:21 32:9 33:19 35:3 36:4 37:12,24 38:8 42:6 42:23 48:15,16,21 52:10 54:20 55:1,12 55:17 67:7 69:18 71:20 75:1 81:25 83:16 86:25 87:20 88:13 90:19,25 94:11 95:2,4,14,25 98:1,4 98:17 99:21 100:5 102:10 104:20 106:17 109:9 112:2 116:2,2 117:1 120:21 121:5,8 122:25 124:13 129:22 133:24 134:3 136:25 141:17,19 142:25 145:12,12 147:10 148:18 149:5 150:6 151:13 156:17,17 157:23,23,24 161:9 161:23 165:6 172:15 176:11 178:16 179:5 183:20 189:6 190:10 192:8 195:6 means 32:14 33:4 139:13 162:10 meant 36:7 182:21 measure 32:25 136:23 measures 150:15 mechanical 25:5,9 mechanics 72:4 188:15 188:18 medical 119:20,22,25 120:6,18 121:19 122:4,13 127:22 152:2 192:6,7,12 193:4,15 194:20 medicine 120:8 123:20 123:21,23 124:6 151:17 152:8 meet 33:9,13 59:24 60:1,10 151:1 meeting 52:19 151:15 153:6 meetings 151:20 member 148:21,22,24 149:5,11,18 150:14 150:15,21 151:6 194:15 members 146:23 148:15 194:12,13 196:13 membership 147:3 148:14,16 149:13 memoranda 153:13 memorandum 7:16 77:8 mention 190:9 mentioned 54:8,11 61:25 63:4,12 134:7 155:25 157:2,17 182:23 184:15 185:5 189:14 mentioning 11:8 mergers 134:8 mesothelioma 66:15 67:10 185:21,23 191:22 195:5 met 32:19 metals 15:9 micro 31:20 58:19,21 microscopes 137:13,16 139:10,12,21 166:4 166:11 mid 64:18 84:13 middle 56:2 midget 124:21,22 mid-to 23:21 miles 102:25 103:4 182:19,19 183:4 millimeters 103:7,13 103:15,18 million 124:16 millions 22:16 mind 10:10 16:14 77:19 88:25 112:4 187:16 mineral 56:24 179:17 minerals 127:20 Mintex 36:22 157:14 157:17,20 158:1 159:14,21 183:11,16 minutes 102:23 106:24 162:13 misinform 92:15 mission 75:5 misstated 51:12 196:24 misstates 83:24 85:22 91:13 misstating 184:23 misunderstanding 89:13 mix 94:12 109:24 mixture 43:10 44:25 model 31:3,10 35:11 40:22 41:18 46:8,8 46:11,11 47:17,18,18 56:1,2,5,15 61:6,7,9 61:10 62:8 87:20 95:15 96:9,10 98:6,7 100:15,15,24,24 101:13,14 174:25 176:10,17 188:1 models 23:17,19,23,25 35:11 40:22 95:15 moment 83:20 101:4 152:11 month 144:11 morning 5:7,8 134:7 176:18 motor 10:4 30:4 j mouth 130:17 j move 4:20 32:3 39:16 j 77:14 78:11 79:1 89:11 ? multipurpose 30:9,10 30:13,21,22 31:4,18 32:2 museum 23:5,10,17,20 24:15 95:4,6 1 museums 24:5 ..... M ---- ------N N 1:11 3:1 4:1 i name 5:9 14:12,15 15:1 j 48:21 112:12 120:16 152:16,18,20 174:7 175:14,16,18 185:14 ' 189:16 190:10 names 31:3,10,10 120:12 143:14,21,25 150:17 nation 74:22 naturally 27:17 nature 110:24 181:19 nauseam 181:17 naval 19:6 Navy 19:1 necessarily 183:20 necessary 6:13,25 10:18 50:15 59:1 183:4 need 13:14 42:12 43:10 43:12 46:8 53:23 54:3 58:3 143:16 169:2,14 183:23 needed 10:17 43:23 ! 44:4,21 136:20 needs 114:6 negotiated 8:17 77:11 132:20 negotiations 8:3 j neither 92:11 never 23:2,3 54:7 69:16 | 149:2 153:24 154:8 154:13 165:17 j 168:11 189:13 191:2 new 1:1,3,14,16,17,17 : 1:24 3:5,5,9,9 14:20 15:11,18 16:9 18:11 f 99:2,6 150:22 157:13 157:16 198:19 200:6 | 200:11 | newsletter 153:13 1 nine 32:3 Nineteen 128:15 Noise 126:24 nonexistent 169:12 ----- -------------------------- Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 10 nonmedical 194:21 non-asbestos 60:17 61:1 83:19 86:17 normal 116:21 127:5 142:17 187:2,4 Northern 9:3 nose 130:17 Notary 1:15 2:8 note 165:24 noted 166:25 notes 17:18 158:25 198:14 notice 16:25 17:3 164:23 noticed 74:21 77:10 notification 153:13 notified 189:20 190:17 191:2 notify 188:15 191:7 Novo 14:21,22 15:25 16:4 nowadays 10:6 31:12 40:14 144:4 number 4:8 100:11,12 103:6 120:11 124:16 138:9 145:20 151:16 173:20 174:9 176:9 176:10,17,20,21 182:19 numbers 100:7 15V16 174:5,16 numerous 117:3 N-O-V-O 14:23 O OA 16:23 114:3 115:22 116:21 117:3 156:10 160:20 188:13 oath 198:8 object 37:9 58:6 70:3 80:13 93:2 187:14 objected 81:4 objecting 37:17 82:1 objection 7:19 58:7 89:23 90:24 91:13 92:24 95:17 166:25 167:3,9 183:18 184:22 objections 2:5 57:22,25 89:1 170:19 198:10 obligatory 196:23 obtained 41:5 obvious 161:12 190:11 obviously 7:4 8:2 78:17 78:21 79:17 97:9 occupation 132:17,20 178:21 186:1 190:12 occupational 66:2 67:8 122:22 123:5 124:6 185:19 occurred 11:24 OEM 98:21,22 188:4 offer 168:14 office 14:8 119:19 officer 196:15,19 officially 147:6 Oh 26:12 36:1 63:1 67:16 84:23 119:7 132:13 143:17 191:14 okay 10:24 11:16,18 12:23 14:9 16:1 19:3 19:13 21:5 22:22 28:7,18 29:23,24 32:16 39:1640:13 41:23 42:10 45:8 47:1248:11,13 49:14 50:16 51:21 52:22 58:3,25 63:20 64:23 66:12 71:8 77:23 87:2 89:18 94:6 98:14 100:16 103:11 104:18 108:9,13,18 110:9 120:9 122:23 123:24 126:8 130:6 133:9 135:20 136:18 142:19 152:9,19 153:3 154:20 158:24 160:9 161:11 175:11 179:12 183:25 185:13 186:10,16 187:5 194:25 old 98:2 187:25 once 37:17 52:18 87:4 95:11 167:8 170:18 ones 18:11 27:13 42:3 60:9,12,18 71:2,9 95:18 99:1 101:1 102:2 110:3 146:16 147:25 157:13,16 159:16 onward 181:2 opinion 184:18 196:21 opinions 54:24 opportunity 92:20 opposed 24:13 148:14 161:24 Oral 1:4,12 order 7:21,22 8:1,6,14 73:11,15,25 75:10,24 76:5,19 77:13 162:24 167:4,24 168:24 169:2 ordered 33:17,19,21 163:23 166:1,24 171:7 organization 148:17 157:12 191:6 organizations 147:22 147:23 148:25 149:6 149:17 150:18 oriented 119:20 origin 173:14 original 24:5 36:4,7,10 36:11,14,19 37:3,4,7 49:15 50:3,10 55:22 71:21 98:16 99:11 102 2,7,17 159:17 183 14,17 188:4 200 8 originally 24:7,9,10,14 OSHA 185:18 outlining 6:10 outside 12:14 150:8 154:12 overbroad 7:4 93:22 overseas 151:21 owned 34:24 84:20 134:5 owners 69:4,8,10,11,22 69:24,25 70:16 71:4 71:6,7,9,11,12 103:17,21 104:4 114:9 188:8 O.A 19:1620:8 P P 1:11 3:1,1 package 149:4 packaging 18:10 133:16 pad 27:20,22,25 51:6,9 82:23 pads 15:4 47:3,4,5,6,7 51:3,5,13 72:22 80:1 81:6 PAGE 4:3,8,12,16,21 pages 200:6 Pagid 41:13 82:18 96:2 106 11,15 107:9 108 11,14 133:21 134 20 135:11 174:8 paid 194:18 paper 52:19 62:4 130:18,21 151:16 parallel 97:14 part 8:3 9:2,3 11:8 17:7 27:2 29:16,19 36:23 41:20 48:23 52:11 53:23 54:1 66:7 70:12 79:4,7 80:2,6 80:10 81:13,24 82:5 83:19 84:17,17 85:2 99:1 100:7,10,10,12 -- `-- - 109:5 116:23 135:14 149:4 157:2 163:21 171:1,3 172:6 173:7 176:22 178:16 participant 76:3 participated 149:18,21 particles 41:22 124:11 particular 7:5 20:13 30:7 64:9,12 128:13 137:8 167:21 176:5 180:10 parties 2:2,15,19 198:16 partly 16:20 parts 18:2 21:8 22:7 32:11 36:21 39:24,24 72:22 77:16 80:6 81:21 82:16,19 83:5 83:11 84:12,12 85:21 85:24 87:17 98:23 99:3,4 101:23 104:16 124:16 130:14 156:1 156:4 157:13,15,20 158:2 168:10 176:19 176:19 patent 104:21,22 105:7 105:15,19 106:2 patenting 105:21 patents 52:1 104:11,14 105:1,5,11,24 patronage 185:24 pattern 51:22,23 patterns 162:7 Pause 111:25 152:15 PC 40:14 pedal 136:16,18 penalty 198:18 199:5 200:10 people 22:17 43:16,22 44:19 48:12 49:1,4,5 50:18 53:12,13 57:20 58:8 65:1 66:16 74:18,23 75:4 94:5 116:20 120:6 129:4,5 129:22 130:13 131:25 137:21 143:5 143:23,25 150:5 192:12 193:5,5 195:22 percent 11:2 46:20 48:2 155:17,20,22,23 155:24 percentage 35:8,8 42:5 46:25 47:1,15,23 108:2 112:5 126:11 126:13 155:13 Percentage-wise 67:25 perfectly 91:8 perform 126:10 193:7 i performance 32:20 1 56:21 135:13 136:13 I 159:16 174:13 183:21,23 188:5 performed 96:14 142:7 j performing 180:2 period 9:25 22:2 45:23 46:1 55:15,24 56:3 69:19,20 84:16 95:14 102:9 106:16 113:17 116:10,18 117:6,10 117:12 118:1121:21 137:9 140:16,17 141:4,14 165:3,9 perjury 198:18 199:6 200:10 person 10:17 18:10 23:15 108:12 158:6,9 185:8 190:8,10 192:15 194:20,21,23 195:18 personal 20:19,24 174:21 189:24 ; 192:18 personally 29:5 65:3 j 151:12 153:9,16 191:21 195:3 j personnel 172:7 pertains 7:5 j phase 62:1,7 63:14 \ 140:16,17 141:5 | phasing 56:3 phone 5:19 108:11 5 129:22 photographs 20:13 131:5 139:24 phrase 169:25 physical 121:8 j physicals 121:4 ; physics 25:21 118:13 Ph.D 123:19 ? Ph.D's 123:22 pick 183:22 picking 164:20 ; pictures 139:24 S piece 79:3 105:25 pile 168:19 pinpoint 16:10 pipe 179:13,21 pipes 18:14 179:2,20 i 179:23 ' place 22:9 108:7,19 : 124:15 143:6 191:9 191:15,19 192:16 198:7 ! placed 67:18 83:22 : 84:7,12 85:21 : Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 11 places 9:10 74:25 placing 95:19 plaintiff 8:16 14:12 plaintiffs 3:2 6:23 plaintiffs 4:7 14:9 planned 55:1 plant 84:11,11,17,19 84:21,22 101:22 122:15 125:20 126:1 126:4,6,17 127:2,24 192:5 193:2,19,24 plants 95:11 127:2 129:17 plate 27:12 play 10:14 please 8:23 44:17 169:6 170:24 185:16 plumber 27:2 point 34:4 76:10 79:19 90:25 93:11 102:22 110:10 142:24 168:13 174:15,15 178:17 poisonous 123:2 policy 21:18,19,21,22 21:25 22:1,4,8 polite 181:14 poor 101:5 posed 77:24 position 9:14,15 114:2 124:4 132:19 134:9 135:5 158:15,17 189:4 possession 95:1,2 114:20,23 125:3 possibility 176:20 possible 182:18 potential 68:3 70:1 93:20 180:23 power 196:6 powerful 139:22 PPM 124:16 practical 163:16 Practice 1:14 pre 164:18 precise 46:9 50:13 85:4 88:6 100:14 120:11 124:13 128:16 138:9 184:8 precisely 16:4,21 111:10 preciser 58:15 prefer 89:21 preparation 17:18 20:17 prepare 16:18 present 23:20 136:8 151:15 180:1 presentation 52:19 presentations 52:1 presently 20:24 172:23 presumes 58:12 pretty 34:22 104:17 118:14 162:22 163:4 163:7 168:6 182:24 prevent 129:11 previous 69:24,25 71:11,12 109:15 previously 181:25 pre-employment 193:7 193:10,11 pride 138:15 primarily 88:15 primary 126:9 printed 98:23 118:14 prior 13:17 63:8 72:18 140:3 Priority-One 1:23 privilege 154:11 privy 62:19 probably 21:4 31:20 39:11 114:9 178:23 188:2 190:9 191:14 193:1 problem 115:3,8,10 116:25 117:4 160:5 160:24 161:8,24 163:21 190:18 192:20 196:7 problems 7:11 152:2 procedure 64:4 96:14 proceed 6:19 8:23 161:22 170:24 proceeding 6:18 proceedings 111 :25 152:15 198:6 process 8:5 16:12 27:7 58:16 95:10 96:20 97:5,7,10,11 105:15 105:17,20,25 106:1 107:13 116:19 135:10,15 173:7 processed 185:5 produce 109:9 produced 131:9 145:1 159:21 164:22 167:8 169:13 182:7 producing 6:11 product 53:22 54:1 57:4 79:3,6,13,14 80:2,9,14,16 105:16 109:16,19 113:2 179:12 production 6:8 82:22 82:23 products 7:18 62:3 L _ ----- -------- ------------ 108:25 109:6,16 110:14 113:14 116:11 171:23 180:14 proffered 57:16 profound 89:13 projects 30:1,3 promotional 106:9,14 promulgate 190:13 promulgated 62:7 171:2,12 pronounce 9:7 pronouncements 63:5 proper 18:15 115:12 properly 9:7 proposed 63:25 prosecution 6:14 protect 122:22 129:4,5 129:10 130:1 190:14 protected 180:9,19 190:19 protection 18:18,23 127:23 129:25 130:8 179:15 180:6 184:14 189:24 191:20 protective 184:19 prototype 30:6 prototypes 30:5 provide 10:17 39:22 40:3,17 42:22 43:5 43:25 44:22 82:16 85:18 97:3 107:23 171:9 191:12 provided 2:13,15 6:23 17:7,8,13 40:7,15 45:25 78:20 108:4 183:13,17 providing 177:6 public 1:15 2:8 51:25 52:8 53:15 publications 59:2,6 63:22 118:18 179:19 published 68:9,23,24 68:25 69:12 150:3 publishing 161:25 purchase 68:12 purchased 31:19 71:17 purpose41:10 78:14 184:3 purposes 2:13 10:11 76:18 pursuant 1:13 73:10 pursue 73:16 put 27:15 33:5 37:19 41:1 81:15 84:22 96:6 127:7 142:1 147:5 179:5 198:8 putting 27:15 P.C 1:17 3:7 p.m 197:11 0 qualify 109:21 quality 115:11 124:11 135:13,19,22 quantity 108:4 154:21 155:3 quasi-governmental 54:18 question 12:9 37:23,25 38:11 43:8 44:2,3,16 47:3 58:2,11 60:15 70:4,5,20 72:9 74:7,9 74:9 76:13 77:18,24 78:10,16 79:22 80:7 81:5,12,15,19,19,21 92:6,23,25 93:1 106:12 109:1,21,22 110:16,19 113:5 140:21 153:25 160:14 162:11 164:13 165:19,22 167:7,10 169:14 172:24 177:5 178:9 178:15 183:22 185:7 186:5 192:25 questioning 91:1 questions4:ll 7:17 73:5,16 78:17,22 88:23,25 89:4,5,12 92:10 104:8 109:15 162:19 163:11,13,22 164:16 165:2,5,10,15 165:25 166:22 168:3 168:5,21 169:20 177:25 181:13,24 182:2,6,9,12,15 184:2 185:2 196:4 197:8 quick 182:10 quickly 33:6 quite 17:25 148:20 178:18,21 R R 1:11,11 3:1 raised 75:11 153:7 range 47:23 54:9 61:10 85:3 94:21 98:7 173:21 rank 145:19 Raybestos 49:13,14,24 50:2,10 reaction 17:22,24 read 16:20 17:6,11 19:22,24 44:2,3 59:3 59:6 107:7 178:16 179:19,24 186:22 j 199:6 reading 16:22 17:21 18:2 176:22 readout 40:18,19,21 real 182:10 really 7:21 18:12 34:19 37:10,20 39:7 56:25 90:1 93:8 142:15 152:25 162:19 167:20 183:22 187:24 j reason 16:1018:7 20:3 | 24:4 60:8,16 107:20 115:9 116:13,14 : 125:16 141:22 161:7 f 174:20 184:1 187:17 1 187:18 ; reasonable 8:12 j reasonably 74:18 \ reasons 126:20,22 recall 14:9,12,20,24 15:1,7,11,14,21 20:4 20:7 28:23 29:11 31:21.33:10,15,24 34:25 36:24 48:25 , 69:22 71:24 84:24 1 94:18 103:16 116:19 120:12 123:11 J 126:16,22 127:1 I 146:16 147:18 148:2 153:5,11,20,25 154:3 162:2 169:17 174:23 179:10,11,15 recalls 116:11 118:3 receive 121:4 154:6 ' 160:22 185:8 f received 6:5 62:5 95:12 j 119:9,12 144:7 153:15,22 154:13 173:10 186:12 187:12 receiving 153:12 154:3 : recess 62:16 74:3,10 j 77:19,22 107:6 162:14 . recipe 59:14,21 ; recognize 66:18 recognized 66:22 recollection 54:24 55:8 ; reconvene 163:12 1 record 7:2,14 9:11 r 78:15 107:5 112:1 ^ 153:1,3,4 162:15 " 163:6 169:7,8,18 196:25 197:3 recorded 198:11 ------- -------- ---------------1 Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall y. Asbestos Page 12 records 21:10,12,13,14 relay 145:16 21:18 22:5,6,6,12,14 release 112:18,22 22:17,20 23:9,13 142:22 113:1 172:13 released 112:17 113:14 refer 31:23 35:22 148:5 179:4,7 174:1 relevance 72:23 166:9 referred 45:17 69:6 166:10 178:13 81:5 120:19 171:13 relevant 76:15,16 78:1 referring 41:19 46:10 165:3,20 58:18 69:18,20 86:25 relief 73:18 94:3 95:4 98:1 relining 37:4 42:14 101:21 102:10 remain 6:2 113:17 reflect 12:8 45:14 54:11 remaining 6:3 remember 174:24 183:13,15 reflected 142:23 159:9 remove 27:20 28:6 Reflecting 15:20 removed 28:7,25 regard 164:14 167:1 removing 18:14 28:11 regarding 14:3 17:23 28:12,21 40:4 45:9 52:23 reorganizations 34:18 54:18 63:25 64:12 repair 104:5 160:6,15 65:9,13,17 67:19 161:14,25 69:21 72:10 73:2,19 repaired 161:9,10,19 78:20 82:25 93:19 repairs 161:22 166:7 102:24 108:16 repeat 73:11 151:12 158:25 rephrase 44:11,16 70:8 159:25 160:1 164:18 70:11,13 71:13 172:7,16 173:8 178:2 160:11 180:23 193:14 replace 36:10,14,17,19 regardless 73:19 37:7 187:25 register 185:23 replaced 18:11 36:23 regulation 66:14 46:22 103:8 157:13 190:13,15 191:9 regulations 64:6 65:8 157:16 replacement 38:6 65:11,13,21 66:17 83:15,16,22 84:3,8 67:14 171:14 196:6 85:21,24 87:2,17 regulatory 66:8 98:2 101:6,9,12,17 rehash 77:12 102:1,7,18 103:1 relate 15:4 76:11 157:20 158:2,3 104:15 105:25 187:25 188:9,16,18 167:21 188:22 related 12:3,9 14:2 replacing 95:25 21:20 22:6 25:24 report 173:3 185:11,23 30:9 32:13 38:1 186:4 52:14 54:2 62:2 reporter 1:16 185:16 64:11 73:16 75:3 198:4,24 200:5,16 82:25 122:8 133:22 REPORTER'S 198:1 133:25 135:1 149:24 200:1 150:11 165:10 Reporting 1:23 177:24 189:19 193:19 relates 39:13 75:12 reports 125:11,13 172:15,16 repository 104:25 167:23 178:11 represent 5:9 37:13,14 relating 66:15 105:11 87:5 196:16 107:17 165:8 representative 194:14 relation 106:4 158:21 194:19,20 relationship 134:2 representatives 108:9 relative 198:15 108:14 134:10 l-- ------- ------------------- J representing 2:21 38:3 request 6:8 147:6 172:19 requests 17:3 require 171:17 required 45:10 103:2 167:8,14 171:14 requirement 21:23 45:2 requirements 33:9 43:18,19,20 64:11 135:18 reserve 6:24 reserved 2:5 reserving 182:4 reside 151:19 resided 134:14,17 resin 41:21 resolved 5:21 181:22 resource 39:21 respect 2:17 159:14 161:2 respective 2:2,19 respiratory 18:23 130:8 180:5 190:17 respond 166:24 response 18:3,5 164:23 170:21 responses 169:10 170:20 responsibilities 11:9 responsibility 22:12 responsible 101:22 rest 11:5 restrain 75:2 restricted 11:23 results 43:13 124:25 136:1 172:20 resume 144:15,16,17 145:8,12 146:4 retail 184:4 retain 12:19 retention 21:18 retired 65:1 143:4 retirement 144:5 retrieve 107:12 return 160:25 returned 161:5 162:3 reverse 27:15,19 review 13:2 50:14 55:8 93:18 177:22 193:13 reviewed 15:24 16:4,24 17:2 63:24 104:13 133:1 revisit 164:2 170:17 right 13:16 15:6 16:6 16:18 17:21 23:4 25:12 29:10 38:2 39:17 44:25 45:4 46:3 52:5 56:17 59:10 60:8 71:8 79:23 88:24 89:9 98:1999:11,17 103:10 106:7,22 110:16 120:18 128:18 131:24 135:10 141:21 154:5 157:1 161:13 178:1 182:5 183:7,11 189:22 191:11 194:9 rights 2:15 6:24 rivet 103:9 riveted 96:11 103:9 Road 1:23 role 10:9,14 122:15 rolled 24:10 Rolls 110:11,14 111:13 room 90:2,3,11 93:16 roughly 47:2,25 48:1 routine 121:13 Royce 110:11,14 111:13 RUBIN 1:17 3:7 rule 62:7 Rules 1:14 8:21 running 197:6 runs 136:15 137:1 Ruth 3:2 5:10 S S 1:11 3:1 SAE 43:20 45:17 148:19 149:7,8 safe 116:5 safety 9:15,17 10:1,4,5 10:7 11:4,7 18:3,3,13 19:5 21:20,22 22:3,5 22:6 30:4,16,24 32:13 33:9 57:3,4 64:17 66:2 67:8 132:21 148:6,7,17 149:24 150:11,15 151:12 179:13 185:19 193:19,21 safety-related 22:7 148:11 149:21 150:2 151:14 sales 21:13 22:19,21 sample 95:7 sampling 137:3 sand 127:15,16,18 saw 130:13 175:20,22 saying 52:3 73:14 75:20,24 76:24 163:18,20 167:16,18 169:18 175:4 191:1 197:5 1 says 85:5 91:17 174:10 scheduled 5:23 j scheduling 63:23 scheme 66:8 i school 27:1 science 118:7,13 sciences 25:21 j scientists 57:19 138:6 | scope 167:24 sealing 2:3 | search 40:10,11,12 t 117:24 181:5,9 j searched 117:8 Searchers 146:11 ) Seat 110:8 111:11 - seats 32:3,3 second 87:15 111:20 | 113:4 149:23 161:3 174:13 194:6 secrets 59:22 j section 16:22 |* sections 2:16 see 7:10 39:3 70:12 | 77:9 78:10 84:6 85:8 85:11,12 115:9 117:17 119:22 130:7 f 133:16 135:22 159:8 163:18,19 166:8,10 seeing 126:16 174:24 seen 28:20,22 29:2,4 64:2,3 69:16,21 85:6 | 96:20 122:9 124:25 j 131:4 133:14 146:20 f 154:8 174:23 | self-evident 109:22 j self-serving 170:19 sell 60:7 selling 109:5 117:20 140:25 send 13:4 72:3,8 90:13 96:7 97:23,24 98:4 | 98:10,12 > sending 88:21 92:2 150:13 sense 89:19 142:1 sensitive 74:25 sent 18:11 77:7 87:10 ; 87:19 88:15 90:16 ; 91:15 96:10 97:20 : 98:11,14 157:13 : 161:18 | separate 119:14 | separately 114:17 serial 145:19 served 8:20 service 188:11,14,20 Services 1:23 Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 13 set 6:7 7:3 92:21 93:15 162:3 198:7 setting 12:14 settled 16:5 seventy-three 128:15 139:17 shared 90:21 sheet 13:4 15:25 16:2 shift 101:4 192:12 shifting 192:4 ship 19:14 179:14 shipment 114:5 187:12 shipped 113:20 114:1 166:7 shipping 113:18 114:8 ships 18:24 19:10 179:2 184:13 shipyard 16:23 18:12 18:16,17,20 178:18 shoe 28:14,16,16,22 95:22,23 96:4,7,7 99:21,22 102:1.1 176:2 shoes 18:10 27:11,13 39:14 51:9 83:17,23 84:3,8 87:2,9 98:4 102:12,15 136:14 164:19,20 176:14 shop 195:21 shops 160:6,15 short 145:10 shorthand 1:16 10:12 198:4,14,24 200:5,16 sick 185:20 side 92:14 173:18,25 175:3 176:2 sides 152:4 sign 13:4 signed 2:8,9 significance 177:23 significant 35:4 170:2 signs 126:16 127:1 128:1 similar 183:12 simple 44:6 57:9 80:24 89:24 simply 7:25 single 78:6,7 169:12 171:3 sir 19:7,8,11 20:18,22 34:2,7 51:20 54:22 68:16 197:10 sit 23:25 38:10 47:22 100:16,25 147:18 150:14,21 situation 76:21 165:18 168:9 situations 76:14 six 157:24 Sixty-six 46:11 125:8 size 96:12 159:16 Skania 112:4,7 Skoda 110:4 111:9 sliding 32:4 Society 148:19 149:8 sold 87:3 108:24 112:12,23 113:14,16 114:19 115:12,14,14 116:12 133:12,17 141:2 154:22 155:15 170:5 solve 117:4 somebody 22:11,24 25:16 31:21 64:24 89:1 114:6 121:23 132:16 134:9 153:18 158:6 164:22 167:14 172:23 180:19 192:8 192:19,23 somewhat 8:7 sorry 30:1 35:17,19 56:11 84:1 89:6 141:3 155:21 162:9 sort5:14 7:6 8:11 39:5 149:24 166:3 182:21 185:8 sorting 164:19 sounds 8:7 9:9 70:19 source 43:10 111:4 138:15 spare 39:24 84:11 99:1 99:3,4 speak 152:10 speaking 94:5 special 7:22 8:1 25:19 75:14 76:7 78:25 122:25 123:1 184:6,6 specializing 25:10 specific 7:6 42:7 43:10 56:15 60:23,25 64:19 67:3 78:8 107:18 112:20 115:2 161:23 161:24 163:11,13 166:21 168:5 173:20 174:9,10 179:9 specifically 27:3 34:23 35:241:6 48:14 59:13 66:10 77:10 88:1 107:17 179:23 specification 32:7,9 40:1 171:6 specifications 44:23,24 59:24 60:10 94:1 171:1,9 188:21 specifics 45:10 178:2 Specified 42:10,21 43:1 -- ----------------------------- 43:3,4 speculate 111:3 speech 53:6,15,17 speeches 52:1 53:19 89:15 93:5 speed 183:1 spell 9:5 158:13 185:16 spend 22:17 spent 10:25 11:3 126:1 126:12 sponsored 113:1 spread 61:22 SS 199:2 stamp 98:22,24 stand 152:7 192:9 standard 6:7 7:3 33:9 60:24 98:22 121:8 148:3 150:22 163:23 standards 10:4,5 30:4 32:15,19 33:13 43:21 44:21 45:18 60:1 61:2 64:17 150:22 171:11 188:5 stands 174:12,14,15 standstill 136:21 start 14:5 81:23 115:17 164:24 started 9:19 24:22,25 45:13 55:25 56:15,16 56:17 64:13,21 156:25 starting 10:3 86:1 171:5 starts 25:21 state 1:1,16 58:6 138:11 196:25 198:19 199:1,13 200:6,11 stated 16:3 145:24 statement 7:25 39:1 45:6 51:4 68:7 69:12 69:13,21 92:9,12 133:12 155:23 173:23 statements 17:23 83:4 Staten 1:24 States 11:19,23 12:4 21:8 31:19 36:15 37:8 38:7 49:17,21 49:24 72:12 87:7,12 87:19 88:12 90:14 92:3 101:11 113:19 115:1,15 116:12,20 140:22 151:20 154:22 160:6,8,16,25 161:6,16,17,19,22 162:3 station 188:11 status 98:22 stay 144:5 stays 57:6 steel 129:7 steering 52:20 stenographically 198:11 step 24:18 90:8 stick 9:8 sticker 83:14 84:12,25 85:6,8,16,20 86:5,7 86:10,12 87:4,23 91:16 stickers 87:9 STIPULATED 2:1,7 2:11,14,18 stood 85:1 stop 33:6 83:20 171:22 172:7 173:8 stopped 61:4,19,20 69:23 70:14,23 71:14 84:14 86:4,6,10,12 140:10,25 171:20,25 172:4,4 173:2 stopping 33:4 136:16 stored 105:1 straight 92:21 Street 1:17 3:9 stricker 83:17 strictly 12:12 37:25 82:22 strike 4:20 89:11 struck 178:17 structure 27:10 56:25 58:14,22,24 59:1 129:13,13 studied 25:5 133:1 studies 52:1 113:1,13 122:6 149:21 150:2 study 25:18 193:18 stuff 18:15 26:5 37:2 40:15 85:10 107:14 126:24 136:17 144:13 145:18 147:10 150:23 168:24 193:6 subject 7:13 107:19 118:2 154:11 156:22 163:1 190:22 subjected 8:6 subscribed 119:2 121:20 Subsidiaries 134:5 substances 41:22 substantially 183:7,8,9 183:10 substitute 59:11,15 substituted 60:22 sub-components 141:20 suddenly 95:5 sue 164:10 sufficient 33:13 suggesting 80:5 j summarize 167:18 summary 51:12 supervising 10:6 J supervisory 30:16 supplied 4:15 15:24 | 27:14 35:9 38:18 39:18 41:12 46:14,21 59:23 60:5 96:3,4 i 97:19 99:6,8 101:17 133:10 supplier 33:20,21 35:3 35:4 39:18 43:15 49:11,12 62:9 84:19 98:5,21 135:17 142:1 > suppliers 40:9 82:15,16 158:21 183:14,17 ` supply 82:19 96:6 97:22 99:8 101:6,8 101:11 135:12 supplying 101:22 j support 191:13 SUPREME 1:1 sure 12:15 18:2 37:21 38:23 46:7 47:10 49:16 51:1,17 90:10 100:1 105:23 126:5 l 142:23 155:10 163:7 167:17 176:19 183:14 184:2 192:22 surface 97:16 surprised 5:17 SUV 31:23 Swedish 112:4 switching 51:21 sworn 5:2 symbol 175:15 system 27:11,18 39:25 40:14 57:2 | systematically 93:24 S-E-A-T 110:8 S-K 110:5 S-K-O-D-A 110:6 | .. f -- --------------------T 1:11,11 table 23:25 102:18 ? take 24:18 25:16,19 27:9,12 35:10 39:10 | 41:3 52:11 74:2,8,10 | 77:19 102:22 104:9 | 106:23 108:7 145:2 1 158:25 162:12 Airbert Kolms Vol. No. January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 14 182:10 taken 1:13 14:6,7 62:16 77:22 90:25 114:19 125:1,4 137:4 162:14 198:6,14 200:8 takes 129:11 talk20:16 48:25 70:23 78:2 83:20 93:24 108:10 154:17 167:15 192:21 talked 6:16 91:7 108:11 134:10 195:25 talking 18:16,24 22:14 23:24 24:9 28:2,3,10 28:11 37:22 44:9 50:4 56:3 60:19 63:10 64:25 65:19,20 68:8,22 69:3,8,9 79:9 80:20 82:11 87:16 88:9 90:20 91:9 95:22 113:21 129:21 132:7 142:13 148:13 156:9,25 173:1 182:18 192:8 194:7,8 teaching 53:25 technical 10:16,18 11:21 25:642:12 43:10,12,22 44:19 45:2 49:4,5 50:18 56:21 62:5 teen 26:13,17 teenager 26:23 teens 26:7 tell 26:6 34:19 43:23 44:20 48:13,14 50:1 59:20,21 61:12 64:23 66:17 67:2,3,5 71:4,6 100:14 111:1 145:15 156:19 165:7 196:22 telling 20:2 76:22 169:22 TEM 139:13,15 ten 21:21,22 22:4 33:10 33:15 126:14 tends 89:1 ten-year 22:8 terms 10:1 11:19 16:14 17:23 42:5,23 45:23 62:17 97:18,20 99:6 101:5 107:16 133:20 141:1,7 181:22 186:18 189:1 test 9:15,17 10:1,4,6 11:4,7 19:5 32:14,16 135:25 136:9,12,15 136:22,25 137:4,14 137:20,21,23 138:1 138:10,17 142:20 148:6 172:15,16,20 tested 135:21 testified 5:3 11:11 12:6 12:17,20 13:25 14:1 15:8,21 19:18 38:16 54:17 58:13 84:2 129:19 140:10 164:21 177:8,8 180:16 testifies 177:18 testify 12:9 89:25 176:24 177:13 testifying 2:22 15:2 57:21 testimony 12:23 13:7 13:17 15:3 16:19 17:22,22 18:2,4 19:17,23 44:18 51:12 54:21 63:9 83:25 85:23 108:15 168:11 176:23 177:2,7,22 180:16 181:15 183:11,15,25 184:12 184:23 197:2,11 198:9 199:9 testing 10:3 18:4 30:3 30:16,24 32:14,15,24 32:25 42:14 43:14,15 45:3 124:10,10 136:13,19 138:19,21 139:10 141:12,24 143:1,2,18 tests 30:4 33:12 112:16 112:18,21 126:10 136:2 150:6 172:12 Textar 35:12,14 39:10 41:13 82:18 96:2 106:11,16 107:9 108:14 133:21 134:22 135:11 174:8 Thank 8:24 14:19 110:7 189:9 197:10 Thanks 38:13 thereto 2:17 thickness 175:9 thing 37:22 67:1 97:15 112:6 114:2 132:1 183:24 things 8:2,4,11 21:14 38:23 77:11 89:2 90:6,21 94:1 126:23 159:7 think 8:9 9:9,10 13:16 16:3 18:21 21:17 26:22 37:20 38:12 47:9 51:11,12 61:9 74:11,15,18,19 75:3 82:2,6,14 86:24 87:1 90:19,21,23 91:1 92:6,24 93:3 99:23 99:24 107:1 111:2 112:2 117:19 121:1 129:20 142:8,22 162:22,23 163:3 165:14,19,22 168:6 168:18,23 177:17,19 196:5,23 thinking 92:16 third 17:12 Thomas 1:5 3:2 5:9 thought 69:6 76:6 84:2 111:20 132:13 178:8 194:7 three 47:11 51:17 103:15 137:1 145:8 152:7 183:14 three's 51:15 Thursday 1:18 tiles 62:4 time 2:5 9:25 10:25 13:14 15:17,23 24:23 25:25 26:18 27:2 29:17 33:10 34:10 41:19,21 45:11,23 46:9,18 47:6,13 56:7 60:2,4,7,20 62:8,14 62:20 64:25 69:19,20 71:12 73:7,19 75:13 75:13,16,16 83:18 85:11 94:9 101:16 106:8 108:23 109:3 110:10,10 111:16 112:10 113:17 114:12 115:16 116:7 117:18 118:16,22 120:4,17 121:20 124:14,20 125:6,7,14 125:25 126:11 128:13,14 130:3 136:3 137:8,9,10 139:6,15,25 141:5,14 143:6,24 144:3 146:24 153:11 154:8 156:3,14 157:4,21 159:18 160:3 161:4 165:3,9 170:11,13 172:25 178:18 181:1 181:2 186:20 189:3 192:21 193:13 198:7 198:8,10 times 11:14,15 12:2,6 12:13,15,17,20 13:25 14:1 93:6 97:22,23 126:14 title 9:22 22:24 today 6:5 9:25 16:19 31:23 38:23 47:22 54:4 78:24 94:25 100:16,25 107:2,4 118:15 125:10 131:17 133:22 143:3 147:18 163:8 168:21 168:22,25 181:15,17 181:23 told 48:19 49:8,12 53:20 67:9,10 146:3 158:6 Tom 176:22 178:3,11 184:12 tomorrow 78:24 tools 96:22 124:18 top 28:17 96:24 topic91:4 117:15,16 topics 164:5 tort 75:1 totally 104:5 touch 67:14 touches 18:13 trade 59:21 146:13 147:8,11,13,19,22 148:24 149:6 150:4 traffic 152:3 183:1 trained 123:16 188:14 188:19,20 transcribed 198:12 transcript 2:8 13:2 17:8,9,10 198:14 199:6,9 transcripts 17:14 transport 32:4 travel 103:1 trial 2:4,6 5:23 12:7 13:18 14:1 15:3 16:25 57:17 58:5 177:7,14,17 tried 121:25 165:3 triple 151:16,17 152:6 troubled 160:10 truck 112:4,4 true 19:19 66:3 86:11 87:6,6 104:6 105:22 132:24 136:12 140:14,15,15,21 180:1 198:13,19 199:8 200:7,12 truly 169:13 truth 20:2 146:12 169:23 try 7:12 80:8 107:3 122:11 168:22 170:16 191:25 trying 89:7,16,20 90:23 104:19 111:23 122:2 !------------- ! 146:7 178:7 tubes 130:20 two 14:4 15:3,19,20 16:8,15 31:7,7,13,15 32:4 37:16 44:13 52:21 53:14 55:12,13 80:21 81:1 89:12 92:22 102:16,19 137:1 147:24 157:22 157:24 168:19 173:21 184:9,20 two-minute 74:3 type 18:18 30:7 31:7,7 31:13,14,15 47:11 48:3 51:15,17 52:21 56:16 103:5 115:5 121:13 127:9 174:11 179:16,17,22 180:16 180:18 183:5 184:10 185:3,25 186:1,11 191:5 194:3 types 184:21 T-E-X-T-A-R 35:17 T-E-Z-T-A-R 35:15 U ultimate 176:4 188:8 ultimately 76:5,23 undersigned 199:5 understand 17:25 37:23,24 44:9,12 63:3 83:21 92:1 97:21 109:1,10 117:21 162:10 167:17 176:3 178:6 178:14 understanding 18:13 44:18 90:22 167:23 176:23 196:17 understood 184:18,20 union 194:5,15 unions 194:5,13,13 unique 7:7,8 United 11:19,23 12:3 31:19 36:15 37:8 38:7 49:21,24 87:12 88:12 90:14 92:3 101:11 113:19 114:25 115:14 116:12,20 140:22 154:22 160:6,8,16,25 161:6,16,17,19,21 162:3 university 25:6,20 unusual 111:21 urge 163:14 use29:11 54:24 59:11 59:11 74:23,24 75:6 Airbeit Kolms Voi. No. January 29, 2004 Wall V. Asbestos Page 15 79:25 81:6 86:15 123:12 132:12 133:3 136:24,24 159:21 171:14 uses 62:2 usual 88:23 usually 12:25 13:6 26:4 51:10 103:4 142:15 176:15,19 utilized 2:12 U.S 151:2 157:3 158:20 189:6 U.S.A 17:23 31:10 __ V______ __ vague 91:13,18 93:21 102:3 122:17 Van 31:12 Vanagon 31:13 VDI 147:23,25 VDR 147:23,25 vehicle 29:6 30:9,10 31:8 32:2,5,8 33:6 36:14 64:11 67:21 68:4,7,12,20 78:21 80:17 102:25 136:20 136:24 vehicles 10:4 21:7 27:4 30:13,21,22,23 31:4 31:18 33:18 35:20 38:18 46:22 49:15 52:13 55:8,16,21 62:9 70:1,15,17,24 70:25 71:14,17,19,20 71:24 72:18 77:16 79:18,18 83:5 95:20 101:7 112:12 136:15 142:17 154:22 171:2 173:22 188:8 vehicle-related 25:24 ventilation 131:2 verbal 40:18 45:22 49:2 146:5 versa 117:1 vice 117:1 videotape 17:16 videotapes 131:9 view 6:11,13 111:7 178:21 180:3 violate 167:4 visit 78:25 Visually 102:18 vitae 145:13 Volkswagen 3:6 5:21 5:24 6:10 9:13,19 10:10 16:7,15,23 19:16 20:8 21:4,6 22:23 26:11,16 28:8 28:25 29:8,23 30:1 30:19 31:9,20 36:20 37:15 38:1 42:11 43:16,22 44:19 45:25 48:12,24 50:3,11 52:13 56:7 59:10 61:10,12 64:15 67:13 67:13 73:6,19 82:16 84:11 87:5,6,7 88:16 98:16,21,24 100:11 100:13,17 101:2,8 103:16 108:5 112:11 112:13,15,23,25 114:3,25,25 115:22 116:21 150:15,21 156:9 158:21 159:23 160:5,16,20,25 164:10 166:7,24 186:8,14 188:13 189:2 Volkswagen's 6:6 16:24 26:20,23,25 27:7 VW 17:23 54:15 103:16 164:19 VWAG 8:3,5 10:10,12 10:15,21,22 11:9 20:17,24 21:9 22:11 24:22 25:4 30:1,23 31:3 32:6,8,25 33:11 33:16 35:9 37:5,8 38:7 42:13,22 43:5 43:19,22 45:9 46:14 46:21,22 49:15 51:1 51:2,18,25 52:4,23 53:6 54:19,25 55:15 56:10,11 61:12,20 63:25 65:5 67:17 68:9,23,25 69:2,12 69:23 70:14 71:14,24 72:3,18 75:21 76:2 77:16 78:6 79:2 80:1 80:5,9,14,22 81:12 82:4,19 83:3 84:18 84:20 87:3,24 88:21 90:13 92:1 94:24 95:11,19 96:3,18 97:19 98:10,16,18 99:11 101:6 102:7,7 102:17,25 104:14,25 106:8,20 108:22 109:4,11,18,20,25 111:5,16,16 112:17 113:14,16,20 114:21 115:14,23 116:12,24 117:5,9,18 118:1,6 119:2 121:20 122:7 122:11 124:3,12,18 125:1,4,21 129:17 130:9,23 131:6,8,16 131:17,22,24 133:3,6 133:11,13,18 134:24 135:12,20 137:17 138:11,15 140:4,10 140:24 141:11 143:3 144:7 146:13 147:19 148:7 149:17,20 151:6 153:12,19 154:8,12,22 159:17 159:21 160:3,4,7,14 160:21,22 161:1,6 167:22 168:3 170:25 171:1,2,7,20 172:4,7 172:10,21,23 173:6 173:22 176:5,8 180:23 182:7 184:3 185:4,7 186:10 187:12,20 188:7,15 188:17,22,23 189:20 189:22 190:7,17 191:1,11,23 192:4,19 193:7,12 194:14,20 195:3 VWAG's 17:2 93:19 VWoA 20:21 48:24 114:20,22 116:24 117:6,9,18 118:1 158:7,15 161:22 180:22 VWoA's 159:9 ________ W _____ wait 65:19 66:20,20 87:15 113:4 132:4 149:23 161:3 194:6 waived 2:4,16 walk 81:2 Wall 1:5,17 3:2,9 5:10 17:6 20:20 39:6,14 72:24 73:17 74:6 75:3 76:11,12,17 78:1 165:8 167:2 168:10 184:12 Wall's 16:20 17:21 73:3 165:11 167:21 168:9 176:22 177:2 178:3,11,16 want 9:8 15:22 19:13 19:15 24:18,20 34:3 34:4 38:22,24 39:9 50:25 54:5 59:18 61:13 62:15 69:9 73:11 74:1 75:4,15 78:15 81:11,18 83:21 85:19 89:25 90:2,4,8 91:24 93:5,23 102:21 105:11 108:20 111:3 117:23 145:16 148:9 156:18 160:11 163:5 163:9 165:14 167:6,7 178:10 182:12 184:25 187:18 wanted 121:23 160:4 160:14 169:19,21 wants 75:2 142:16 warning 67:18 68:3,7 69:13,21 83:4,14,17 83:22 84:3,7,24 85:1 126:18 133:11 warnings 82:24 126:18 warrant 115:23 warrantied 115:13,19 warranties 144:8 165:6 warranty 115:5,20,21 115:22 116:5 wasn't51:17 165:16 176:19 180:1 189:11 watch 17:16 wavelength 92:7 way 7:4 21:2,11 32:25 33:3 44:15 57:8 64:21 77:5,679:24 80:8 87:24 89:10 93:8 99:13,19 102:8 107:11 108:1,3 116:21 117:11 121:23 128:21 135:17 155:12 157:15,15 160:23 161:1 173:12,22 182:24 188:7 190:10 190:23 191:10 192:1 192:1 195:2,4,8,9 ways 44:13 wear 126:24 129:9 179:15 187:3,4 wearing 127:9 184:19 weeks 137:1,1 169:16 169:20 welcome 5:10 went 25:3 35:21 122:4 122:23 126:9,14,15 168:12 169:18 weren't 101:16 113:18 wheel 27:10,16,19 wide 29:20 wider 54:9 wife 70:4 Wilmington 20:9 withdraw 65:22 95:24 106:12 122:11 162:1 177:4 withdrawn 64:2,13 95:9 104:13 108:2 125:19 131:16 134:13 160:21,22 189:2 192:3 witness 2:21 4:2,11 10:23 41:7 46:6 51:17 74:1 78:15 81:25 82:6 87:18 88:10,13,19 90:2,3 90:10,11 91:3 93:7 93:16 113:10 128:14 132:6 145:25 148:1 163:2,15 164:3 170:23 174:4 175:13 177:13,17 190:1 194:9 195:10,17,20 196:24 198:8,9 199:16 witnesses 75:15 Wolfsburg 23:8 24:23 24:25 118:10 wore 128:4,5 work 7:12 11:18,21 17:23 18:9,12,19,24 19:15 30:2,8 60:9,17 72:5 75:4 96:5 122:19 142:17 179:1 189:4 190:8 191:9 192:15 worked 8:12 19:10 20:5,7,20 61:16,18 120:6,13 137:21 158:7 164:19 191:22 195:3 worker 122:20 130:1 132:5,17 workers 65:4,9,13,15 122:22 123:1,4 124:7 186:11 190:14 worker's 65:23 185:2 186:10 189:4,6 190:2 190:6,12 191:12 working 11:3 26:19 27:2 30:12,20,22 74:18 111:16 122:21 124:15 127:15 143:2 143:6 178:18 184:13 191:15,19 195:12,23 workplace 123:3,13 190:14 191:3 196:7 works 29:3 190:10 191:10 I world 62:5 73:5 163:1 170:6 worldwide 49:16 140:22,23 i worn 175:8 184:14 187:8,8 wouldn't 76:17 135:5 Airbert Kolms Vol. No. 186:8 190:17 write 38:25 39:3 writing 45:22 54:10,23 85:2 153:12 154:9 written 6:9 51:24 52:3 52:7,12,17,23 54:14 55:2 107:23 173:3 X X4:l Y-rays 121:13 193:8 Y year 41:18 46:8,9,12 47:17,18 56:2,5 61:6 61:9 62:8 85:20 87:1 96:10 98:7 100:15,24 101:14 126:14 140:18 155:7 188:1 years 9:23 15:16,19 16:8,15 21:21,21,22 21:24 22:4 29:21,25 30:12,15 32:25 33:11 33:15 40:22 50:22 55:15,24 63:19 65:1 65:1 87:13 95:15 101:15 106:17 108:8 111:14 122:5 144:6 155:4,9,11,14 156:6 157:7,22,24 170:7 174:25 York 1:1,3,14,16,17,17 1:24 3:5,5,9,9 14:20 15:11,18 16:9 198:19 200:6,11 young 10:7 26:5 29:6 65:2 younger 53:21 Yves 158:12,15 Y-V-E-S 158:14 Z Z35:16,17 zone 86:21 1 1 200:6 1:00 106:25 10 77:7 100051:17 3:9 10017 3:5 10314 1:24 11 4:22 11:05 1:18 1444:18 1474:18 1521:21,24 182 4:5 1858 66:6 1864:4 1900s 66:4 1939170:4 1940s 181:2 195 4:5 1962 39:9 196645:24 46:15,22 50:4 51:2,19 68:24 98:9 99:14,19 100:8 100:18 101:1,7,12,15 102:4,9 103:1 106:16 113:17 114:13 115:17 116:8,11 117:6 123:9 138:18 154:23 174:19 1967103:1 1970 45:24 46:15,22 50:5 51:2,19 68:25 98:9 99:14,20 100:9 100:19 101:1,7,12,15 102:4,9 106:16 113:17 114:13 115:17 116:8,11 117:6 123:9 138:18 154:23 164:18 174:19 1970s 141:15 143:3 147:16 148:17 149:11,22 151:7,12 151:22 161:5 175:20 175:24 1973 25:1 31:1735:1 109:7 110:1 111:15 112:7,11 120:1,14,15 121:3,20 124:3,9 125:5,25 126:17 127:3 129:18 130:3,9 132:24 133:15 134:14 136:10 137:10,21 138:11 139:9,22,25 145:11 146:14,23 159:19 164:25 166:5,12 1974 133:15 1975125:25 126:17 127:4 133:15 166:5 1977 52:19 1986 72:19 86:19 131:9 141:5 165:5 1987 165:5 1989 63:9 199 200:7 1996140:3,12 2 24:17 20 11:15 12:6 13:25 2001 15:19 16:8 2003 10:25 2004 1:18 9:25 198:21 199:12 200:9,13 224 174:10 184:8 254:18 11:15 12:6 13:25 103:4 25,000 183:3 29 1:18 200:8 295 3:4 3 30 9:23 12:15 14:1 103:4 30th 198:21 200:13 30,000 103:4 183:3 35 48:2 174:15 37th 3:4 4 4:57 197:11 40 1:17 3:9 12:15 14:1 64:25 106:24 400 174:13,14 414:17 43 66:14 45 65:1 106:17 174:15 48 106:18 49 56:16 5 5 4:4 5:00 163:10 50 11:2 155:17,22,24 500,000 155:6,13 6 64:18 60s 20:14 21:10 23:21 64:18 151:9 65 144:6 66 47:7,24 50:7 71:12 94:10,15 117:25 7 70 46:11 47:8,24 50:7 71:12 94:10,15 117:25 125:8 70s 20:14 21:10 61:25 62:18,21,23,25 63:5 63:6,13 143:12,13,19 147:9,20,21 148:8 152:16,19,23 173:2,4 718 1:24 73 9:21 45:13,15 112:10 120:22 139:16 145:23 75 155:20,23 77 66:15 784:13 8 80s 56:2 60:21,22 61:4 84:13 86:1,2 173:2 86 61:9 86:24 131:12 894:22 62:6 899 1:23 9 94:13 94 62:8 171:23 9815:16 983-1234 1:24 January 29, 2004 Wall v. Asbestos Page 16 EXHIBIT C ROBERT P CAMERON, JR VOLUME 2 219 S U P E R IO R C IT Y C O U RT S T A T E OF C A L IF O R N IA OF SAN TA BARBARA X R IC H A R D S T E IN E R a n d C H R IS T IE S T E IN E R , P la in t if f s , - vs- C ase N o. 1 374169 ADVANCE AUTO PA R TS , ET A L ., D e fe n d a n ts . X V ID E O T A P E D D E P O S IT IO N o f R O B E R T P . C A M ER O N , J R . , (VO LU M E 2 ) t a k e n p u r s u a n t t o N o t ic e , h e ld a t t h e D O U B LE T R E E B Y H IL T O N H O T E L , 2 1 1 7 R o u te 4 E a s t, F o r t L e e , New J e rs e y , on F rid a y , Ju n e 2 4 , 2 0 1 1 , a t 9 : 3 0 a . m . b e f o r e J E A N N E T T E M C C O R M IC K , a C e r t if ie d S h o rth a n d R e p o rte r, a nd a N o ta ry P u b lic . 220 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: 2 TH E FARRISE LAW FIRM 3 Attorneys for Plaintiffs 225 South O live Street, Suite 102 4 Los Angeles, California 90012 BY: BRENT ZADOROZNY, ESQ. 5 (310) 424-3355 (Telephone) (510) 588-4536 (Fax) 6 bzadorozny@ farriselaw.com 7 HERZFELD & RUBIN, LLP 8 Attorneys for Defendant Volkswagen Group of America and the W itness 9 1925 Century Park East, Suite 600 Los Angeles, California 90067 10 BY: CRAIG L. W IN TE R M A N , ESQ. (310) 553-0451 (Telephone) 11 (310) 553-0648 (Fax) cwinterman@ hrllp-law.com 12 13 CHARLES FINBERG, ESQ, PLLC Attorneys for the W itness 14 266 E. S hore N. G rand Isle, V e rm o n t 05458 15 BY: CHARLES FINBERG, ESQ. (917) 697-4430 (Telephone) 16 cfin berg@ herzfeld-rubin.com 17 PERKINS COIE, LLP 18 (VIA TELEPHONE) Attorneys for Defendant 19 Honeywell International Inc. 1888 Century Park East, Suite 1700 20 Los Angeles, California 90067-1721 BY: BENJAMIN SOFFER, ESQ. 21 (310) 788-3222 (Telephone) (310) 788-3399 (Fax) 22 bsoffer@ perkinscoie.com 23 24 25 221 A P P E A R A N C E S: (CONTINUED) SEMPER LAW GROUP, LLP 3 (VIA TELEPHONE) Attorneys for Defendant Parker Hannifin 4 Corporation as successor in interest to EIS Brake Parts 5 333 South Hope Street, Suite 3950 Los Angeles, California 90071 6 BY: SUKO GOTOH, ESQ. (213) 437-9700 (Telephone) 7 (213) 596-1479 (Fax) sgwja@aol.com 8 9 BOWMAN AND BROOKE, LLP (VIA TELEPHONE) Attorneys for Defendant Nissan North America, Inc. 11 879 W. 190th Street, Suite 700 Gardena, California 90248-4227 12 BY: JOHN A. EBERLEIN, ESQ. (310) 380-6559 (Telephone) 13 (310) 719-1019 (Fax) john.eberlein@bowmanandbrooke.com HAWKINS, PARNELL, THACKSTON & YOUNG, LLP (VIA TELEPHONE) 16 Attorneys for Defendant i7 Maremont Corporation 444 South Flower Street, Suite 1100 Los Angeles, California 90071-2912 BY: KELLY M. HAGEMANN, ESQ. (213) 486-8087 (Telephone) 19 (213) 486-8080 (Fax) khagemann@hptylaw.com POND NORTH, LLP 22 (VIA TELEPHONE) Attorneys for Defendants Genuine Parts Co. and National Automotive Parts Association 23 350 South Grand Avenue, Suite 3300 Los Angeles, California 90071 BY: RUSSELL W. SCHATZ, ESQ. (213) 617-6170 (Telephone) 25 (213) 623-3594 (Fax) rschatz@pondnorth.com 222 A P P E A R A N C E S: (C O N T IN U E D ) 2 3 DeHAY & ELLISTON, LLP (VIA TELEPH O N E) 4 Attorneys for D efendants Pneum o Abex, LLC and K aiser G ypsum Com pany, Inc. 5 800 W e st 6th Street, Suite 788 Los Angeles, C alifornia 90017 6 BY: KELVIN W Y LE S , ESQ. (213) 271-2727 (Telephone) 7 (213) 271-2730 (Fax) kwyles@ dehay.com 8 9 BOOTH, M ITCH EL & STRANGE, LLP (VIA TELEPH O N E) 10 A ttorneys for D efendant Borg W a rn e r Corp. by its s u c c e s s o r in in te re st B org W a rn e r 11 M orse TE C , Inc. 707 W ilshire Boulevard, Suite 4450 12 Los Angeles, C alifornia 90017 BY: STEVEN M. M ITCHEL, ESQ. 13 (213) 422-2122 (Telephone) (213) 380-3308 (Fax) 14 sm m itchel@ boothm itchel.com 15 16 A lso Present: 17 STANLEY M. RODEN, JD 18 (VIA TELEPH O N E) Discovery R eferee for S anta B arbara 19 S uperior Court 1455 V incenti Place 20 Santa Barbara, California 93108 (805) 895-7241 (Telephone) 21 sm radr@ cox.net 22 23 THO M AS D ELVECCH IO (Videographer) 24 25 HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. VOLUME 2 223 1 I N D EX 2 WITNESS EXAMINATION BY 3 PAGE ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 4 5 MR. ZADOROZNY 224 6 7 EX HIBITS 8 NUMBER 9 DESCRIPTION PAGE 10 14 Volkswagen Documents 311 11 15 Volkswagen of America's 12 Responses in Simmons Cooper v. A.W. Chesterton 317 13 16 Volkswagen of America's 14 Responses in Penza v. Audi AG 325 15 17 Defendant's Preliminary Statement and Objections in 16 Reese v. AC Delco 334 17 18 VWGOA's Responses in Gaskill v. Abex 338 18 19 Volkswagen Documents 348 19 20 Volkswagen Documents 362 20 21 22 23 24 25 224 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. The 2 time is approximately 9:37 a.m., Friday, June 3 24, 2011. This is tape number 1, Volume 2 of 4 the videotaped deposition of Mr. Robert 5 Cameron, Junior. We're back on the record. 6 7 ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR., 8 previously sworn, 9 10 CONTINUED EXAMINATION 11 BY MR. ZADOROZNY: 12 Q. Good morning, Mr. Cameron. 13 A. Good morning. 14 Q. You understand you're still under oath? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. I think when we were going through your 17 background we ended I think in about '83. Can you 18 tell me after you became -- I'm just trying to find 19 the note so we don't have to go back -- after you 20 became a tech analyst, what was your next position? 21 A. After tech analyst? 22 Q. Yes. 23 A. That wasn't in '83. That was way back in the 24 '70s. I'm sorry. That was in the '60s. I became 25 the product liaison -- supervisor of product 225 1 liaison. That was about '70, '71. 2 Q. Okay. And after that? 3 A. I became the product liaison manager. 4 Q. Okay. And that was when? 5 A. That was about '74, '75. 6 Q. And then after that? 7 A. I became the manager of product liaison. 8 Instead of a section, it became the department. The 9 manager title goes in front in our company. 10 Q. And what were the dates of that? 11 A. That would have been '76, maybe, '77, 12 somewhere in there. 13 Q. Okay. And then what was the next position? 14 A. I held that position until 2005 when I became 15 the general manager product liaison. 16 Q. And at some point did you begin testifying as 17 part of your duties for Volkswagen? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And when was that? 20 A. I believe 1968 was the first time I 21 testified. 22 Q. And you testified as an expert, correct? 23 A. Again, I believe I did. I testified 24 concerning mechanical component of the vehicle, how 25 it functioned and how it functioned in the accident 226 1 in question, and what its performance was, and why 2 it did not relate to the recall campaign. At this 3 point I don't recall whether I was qualified as an 4 expert, but that's the type of testimony I gave. 5 Q. Have you since that time testified as an 6 expert? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. On what areas? 9 A. I testified concerning the fuel systems on 10 our vehicles, the suspension systems on our cars, 11 the braking systems on our vehicles, engine 12 disassembly and assembly. That's what comes to mind 13 right at the moment. I didn't think back on it too 44 far. 15 Q. Okay. In terms of during your whole career 16 at Volkswagen, did you receive any other kind of 17 training or certifications that we haven't talked 18 about? 19 A. Well, I have attended all of the typical 20 schools that the manufacturers provide for their 21 mechanical employees, engines, transmissions, drive 22 train, general repairs, brakes, clutches, things of 23 that nature for Volkswagen and for Audi. I have 24 attended some optional courses for accident 25 reconstruction and injury causation courses at a HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. VOLUME 2 227 1 num ber o f colleges in C alifornia that they put on. 2 Q. A n d is that in preparation fo r som e o f 3 your -- have you te stifie d in accident cases 4 involving Volkswagens? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. As an expert? 7 A. I believe I have. But again, I don't make 8 notes o f what I am testifying. Usually the Person 9 M ost Knowledgeable or as a person testifying 10 concerning the perform ance o f the product itself, 11 but in a num ber o f cases th e y did e nter me I 12 rem em ber as an expert testimony, which allows for I 13 guess different cross-exam ination. 14 Q. At som e point did you becom e an officer o f 15 Volksw agen? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Now, let's just say currently, how m uch o f 18 your tim e is spent testifying, what percentage? 19 A. O f a year you mean or? 20 Q. Yes, let's say in a year. 21 A. Testifying over a year? 22 Q. Let's say 2010. 23 A. Less than ten percent, maybe five percent or 24 less. 25 Q. And how about w hat percentage would be 228 1 involved in say preparation for testimony or, you 2 know, looking at documents for testimony, anything 3 that would -- 4 A. To prepare for that testimony that was 5 scheduled? 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. Maybe another five percent. 8 Q. Are you part o f a liaison group that really 9 heads up testimony for Volkswagen on various issues? 10 A. Well, we provided technical and engineering 11 information and testimony for the group companies. 12 Q. Have you ever -- any other certifications or 13 training that you've received as part o f your job at 14 Volkswagen? 15 A. I think I have mentioned what I recall at the 16 moment. 17 Q. Let me ask you this. Have you taken any 18 courses or done any training in term s o f how to 19 present as a witness? 20 A. How to present as a witness? 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. No. The only information I received in that 23 area was way back in the '80s. At one point in time 24 I was going to appear on the 60 Minutes program and 25 I did receive a day's training for television, not 229 1 presentation, but presence in front o f a television 2 cam era, w h ich is d ifferent than a m ovie cam era. 3 Q. I mean, you have an am azing ability to look 4 at the cam era and not m ake eye contact. I'm 5 wondering if you had some training for that? 6 A. No. I ju s t prefer it if the ju ry is going to 7 see this that they can look at me and I'm looking at 8 them. 9 MR. W INTERM AN: As opposed to attorney 10 sitting at an angle and trying to get the 11 witness to look at them. 12 MR. Z AD O R O ZN Y: I'm ju s t surprised at 13 his focus. He's trem endous, but -- 14 B Y MR. ZAD O R O ZN Y: 15 Q. So you didn't take any courses in term s o f 16 how to present to a jury or anything o f that sort? 17 A. No. W hat you see is what you get. 18 Q. Let me ask you this. In term s o f your role 19 testifying say in the last five years, would it be 20 about the -- preparation and testifying, would it be 21 the same, approxim ately 15 percent o f your time? 22 MR. W INTERM AN: Misstates. 23 M ischaracterizes testimony. 24 TH E W IT N E S S : No. I have -- in the last 25 five years? I don't think I have testified 230 1 at trial in the last five years. It's only 2 been depositions, but it's small. Overall 3 for the year it's five percent or less. 4 BY MR. ZADOROZNY: 5 Q. Okay. How about the last ten years? 6 A. Ten years? It's been pretty quiet for the 7 last ten years. Probably about the same, maybe a 8 little bit more, but certainly not m uch more. 9 Q. How m any in the last ten years, what would 10 you average, how m any depositions say in a month? 11 A. A month average? 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. One maybe, if you can average it out. They 14 get scheduled over and over and over again. They 15 get postponed. A fter a w hile it's tough to rem em ber 16 w hether you actually did the deposition or not 17 because it gets rescheduled so m any times. 18 Q. Now, I want to talk about your com pensation. 19 Are you com pensated with a bonus in term s o f your 20 perform ance? 21 MR. W INTERM AN: The question is vague 22 and ambiguous. 23 THE W ITNESS: No. 24 BY MR. ZADOROZNY: 25 Q. And have you ever received a bonus, has that HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. VOLUME 2 231 1 ever been part of your compensation package? 1 2 A. The company has a bonus package in place. If 2 3 the company makes money, then there is a bonus paid 3 4 to all employees based upon the percentage o f profit 4 5 that the company makes. Unfortunately, except for 5 6 the last two years, we haven't made money in a long 6 7 time. We have made money in the last two years. So 7 8 there were bonuses paid to all employees, not just 8 9 me. 9 10 Q. So you don't have a -- let me ask you this. 10 11 During your whole time at Volkswagen, you didn't 11 12 have a performance-based bonus? 12 13 A. Performance in your job function is part of 13 14 the evaluation to get the company's bonus, but 14 15 that's not the reason for the bonus. If you're a 15 16 bad-performing employee, then you didn't contribute 16 17 to the success o f the company in making profit, you 17 18 are either not going to get a bonus or get a smaller 18 19 bonus. If you're a good-performing employee, then 19 20 you get the normal bonus. 20 21 Q. Let's just say in the last five years, what 21 22 has your salary averaged? 22 23 A. I'm not going to tell you that. 23 24 MR. W INTERMAN: That invades his right 24 25 to privacy. 25 232 1 MR. ZADOROZNY: I do believe it goes to 1 2 bias. And so I do think it's -- generally, 2 3 witnesses give this information all the time. 3 4 MR. WINTERMAN: Well, I disagree. And I 4 5 think it violates his right to privacy. And 5 6 I am going to instruct him not to answer. 6 7 You can ask the discovery referee if he wants 7 8 to make any recom m endations for a ruling on 8 9 it if you think it's improper, but I think it 9 10 totally violates his right to privacy. 10 11 MR. ZADOROZNY: I do. Mr. Roden? 11 12 MR. RODEN: W hat's the justification for 12 13 this? How does how much money you earn show 13 14 bias, whether it's X or Y dollars? 14 15 MR. ZADOROZNY: W ell, it certainly 15 16 obviously gives him a motivation to do well 16 17 in term s o f his testimony. I mean, I think 17 18 it's a very common question that is asked of 18 19 PM Q witnesses, and it goes directly to, you 19 20 know, why he's doing what he's doing. 20 21 MR. RODEN: W ait a second. You are 21 22 arguing, if I am reading this correctly, you 22 23 are arguing that if he does well in the 23 24 deposition it saves money for the company, he 24 25 will be rewarded in some way so he's, in 25 233 essence, his testim ony is contingent or his salary, rather, is contingent on the outcome o f the case which could link back to his testimony? Is that what you are arguing? MR. ZADORO ZNY: That's what I'm arguing. MR. RODEN: Is this depo going to finish today? MR. ZADOROZNY: I am hoping to, but I don't know. MR. RODEN: All right. So I'm going to -- right now I'm not going to rule on this. W hile you're yakking away on all the other subjects, I'm going to do a little quick research. Do you have any authority to cite by the way? MR. ZADORO ZNY: I could probably find some. Do you want me to -MR. RODEN: I don't want to bog this down, but I don't want to -MR. ZADORO ZNY: I can send a message to the office and have them send you something. MR. RODEN: Oh, all right. That would be great. Yeah. Because this is a sensitive area. I am not saying you're wrong, trust me on that, but it strikes me that that's pretty 234 farfetched, pretty tenuous, but for discovery purposes maybe it's allowable. I don't know. I am sure there must be something out there on it that I'm not aware of. Anybody on the line have anything to contribute? MR. WINTERMAN: This is Craig Winterman, Mr. Roden, and clearly I believe it's totally irrelevant. This witness has been with the company for over 40 years. If anybody wants to allege bias, go ahead and allege bias because he happens to be a long-term company employee. They asked for a PMQ of a company to get -- going back to the '60s. We produced a person who has been with the com pany the longest. And now he's being accused of purportedly being biased because he gets paid by the com pany? I mean, that's a non sequitur. It doesn't make any sense. You know if this -- DEFENSE COUNSEL: It just seem s to me -- I know that expert witnesses are asked how much money they make in connection with expert testimony, not the total amount they make. The only reason I'm chiming in is because I don't want to get bogged down HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. VOLUME 2 235 1 because. I w ant to get this thing finished 2 so I can get out of here. 3 MR. RODEN: I understand. If anybody 4 has any authority, please just e-m ail it to 5 me. I am on W est Law. So just give me 6 w hatever it's going to take to rule on this, 7 and let's just -- don't forget, B rent, to 8 rem ind m e not to conclude this until I've 9 ruled on it. I d o n 't w a n t to th a t happen, 10 but I also don't w ant to bog this down. If 11 you could m ove on to another subject, we will 12 ju s t hold th is in abeyance. 13 MR. ZADOROZNY: Let's just take a 14 one-m inute break. I am going to ask fo r some 15 authority to be sent to you. 16 MR. RODEN: Okay. I appreciate that 17 very much. 18 MR. ZADO RO ZN Y: Should it be sent to 19 everybody? I guess yes. 20 MR. RODEN: Yes, I would assume so. 21 MR. ZADOROZNY: Let's go o ff the record 22 for just a second. 23 (Discussion off the record.) 24 BY MR. ZADOROZNY: 25 Q. Som ething that I forgot to ask yesterday. Do 236 1 you know if VWGOA ever put out any MSDS sheets for 2 any o f its products that contained asbestos? 3 MR. FINBERG: Objection. Lack of 4 foundation. 5 THE WITNESS: Volkswagen of America 6 itself, not that I know of. 7 BY MR. ZADOROZNY: 8 Q. Do you know if VW GOA ever received any MSDS 9 sheets for any of the asbestos-containing products 10 that it distributed? 11 A. I believe they did in the past. Sheets were 12 received from the suppliers o f the parts. 13 Q. Okay. Do you know if those were ever passed 14 on to dealerships? 15 A. I don't know. 16 Q. Have you ever seen a copy o f one o f the MSDS 17 sheets that were received for asbestos-containing 18 parts by VW GOA? 19 A. No. 20 Q. We talked a little bit about the conversation 21 that you had regarding the product being chrysotile. 22 Do you remember that testimony? 23 A. Our conversation with one o f the factory 24 engineers, yes. 25 Q. Yes. Do you remember at that time -- was 237 1 that in G erm any or w as that in the United States? 2 A. I believe it was in the United States. 3 Q. He had brought the docum ent to you? 4 A. He had the docum ent in his briefcase. 5 Q. And that w as in preparation for testim ony? 6 A. He w as here in reference to a case that he 7 was involved in and I was discussing asbestos with 8 him. He was the designated asbestos engineer from 9 Germany. 10 Q. And you didn't m ake a copy o f that paperwork 11 that talked about the form ulations o f the 12 asbestos-containing products? 13 MR. FINBERG: Objection. Misstates. 14 Lack o f foundation. 15 THE WITNESS: No. He simply showed me 16 the document. I believe, as I said 17 yesterday, it w as in G erm an, so I couldn't 18 read the whole thing, but he did point me to 19 a line that talked about percent asbestos, 20 and it said 30 percent for that particular 21 brake shoe that was involved in that case. 22 BY MR. ZADOROZNY: 23 Q. And the first lawsuit in which som eone 24 alleged exposure to asbestos from a Volkswagen 25 product was in 1983? 238 1 A. We received it in 1983, yes. 2 Q. And was that when you -- in preparation for 3 that lawsuit, is that when you saw this document 4 from Volkswagen AG? 5 A. No. It was a number of years later when I 6 saw that document. 7 Q. Let me ask you this. In terms of defense of 8 asbestos-related injury or death cases, does 9 Volkswagen AG assist VWGOA in defending those cases? 10 MR. FINBERG: Objection. Argumentative. 11 Conclusory. Vague and ambiguous. 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, they do provide 13 technical assistance for us. 14 BY MR. ZADOROZNY: 15 Q. Witnesses? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Have you ever asked whether they still have 18 the document that talks about the material 19 specifications for asbestos-containing products sold 20 by Volkswagen? 21 A. Well, again, I couldn't tell you if that's 22 what that document is classified as. My question 23 was what was the percentage of asbestos in our brake 24 shoes, and he took this document out and it showed 25 on a line 30 percent. So that's what was on that HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. VOLUME 2 239 1 document. Was that the document showing the makeup 2 of brake linings and the specifications for it? I 3 don't know. It was in German and I don't read 4 German. 5 Q. Let me just rephrase my question then. Have 6 you -- during the time period when Volkswagen AG is 7 lending assistance, have you said hey remember that 8 document that you showed me do you still have that? 9 A. Well, I can't do that because that particular 10 engineer has retired a number of years ago. But I 11 have never asked them for a copy of the document. 12 Q. You ever asked them hey do you have any 13 documents that show how much asbestos and what type 14 of asbestos was in any of our asbestos-containing 15 products? 16 A. I've never asked them, but I'm sure they have 17 technical specifications for the brake shoes which 18 would outline what's in them. 19 Q. But you've never asked for that? 20 A. No. 21 Q. How difficult would it be? If you just 22 picked up the phone and called them, do you think 23 you could get that information? 24 A. Well, right now they are going on vacation, 25 so I doubt if I could get it right now, but I could 240 1 ask them for it. W hether they would supply that 2 particular document to me, they would have to decide 3 w hether they wanted to release it or not. They 4 don't always give us the stuff that we ask for. 5 Q. I want to ask you this. Have you ever -- has 6 Volkswagen ever had an industrial hygienist visit a 7 plant where the friction products themselves were 8 being installed or removed? 9 MR. FINBERG: Objection. Vague. 10 MR. W INTERMAN: I didn't catch who you 11 asked for, which com pany did you say? 12 MR. ZADOROZNY: I will rephrase. I 13 think I said the wrong company. 14 MR. WINTERMAN: That's what I thought. 15 BY MR. ZADOROZNY: 16 Q. Has VW G O A ever had an industrial hygienist 17 visit a plant where friction products were being 18 installed or rem oved? 19 A. I'm sorry, what was the last word? 20 Q. Or removed. 21 A. Or removed? Well, the only place that 22 Volkswagen had the industrial hygienist was in 23 W estm oreland. The products were being installed 24 there, but they were included in another assembly. 25 So they weren't -- there was nobody actually 241 1 handling the friction products in W estm oreland. 2 They were installed in wheel assemblies that were 3 being put on the vehicles. Other than him being 4 there and inspecting those plants and the work areas 5 in there, I don't know o f him doing anything else. 6 Q. W hen did you first find out about an 7 industrial hygienist going to the plant? 8 A. Going to the plant? 9 Q. Yes. Going to the plant. 10 A. Or being part o f the work force at the plant. 11 Q. Either way. Being at the plant. 12 A. I believe it was when we received in a 13 W orkm en's Comp claim concerning one o f our 14 warehouses in Ohio. And when I read the report from 15 the insurance company in there, there was 16 information from an industrial hygienist who turned 17 out was an employee o f the W estm oreland plant. 18 That's when I first came across the person. 19 Q. And when was that? 20 A. Oh, that -- late '80s, early '90s, somewhere 21 in there. I am just guessing. I couldn't give you 22 an exact date. 23 Q. I am going to try not to mark it because the 24 court reporter is already going to be carrying a lot 25 o f things. She's such a great court reporter. 242 1 I'm going to hand you this. Let your counsel 2 see it first. It's a transcript from the Circuit 3 Court, Third Judicial Circuit, Madison County, 4 Illinois, C a ndas K. F rost and Greg F rost v. A. W. 5 C hesterton, e t al. It's a d eposition on M ay 27, 6 2009 of you. 7 DEFENSE CO UNSEL: I'm sorry, Counsel, 8 w hat year did you say this transcript is 9 from ? 10 MR. ZADO RO ZN Y: It is from 2009. May 11 27th, 2009. 12 MR. W INTERM AN: Okay. Thank you. 13 BY MR. ZADOROZNY: 14 Q. Can you please take a look at page 139? 15 A. Page 139 of the transcript? 16 Q. O f the transcript. 17 A. There is two -- 18 Q. It is two different things. 19 A. Okay. 20 Q. I'm going to read from line 19 on page 139 to 21 line 10 on page 140 skipping the colloquy. 22 MR. FINBERG: Please read the colloquy 23 too. 24 MR. ZADOROZNY: Okay. 25 HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. VOLUME 2 243 1 BY MR. ZADOROZNY: 2 Q. "Question: Okay. Have you ever had an 3 industrial hygienist visit any of the plants where 4 the asbestos-containing friction material was being 5 removed or installed? Mr. Toohey: Objection as to 6 any discussion regarding any aspect of Volkswagen's 7 operations after December 31, 1976. Mr. Connelly: 8 I am not agreeing to that stipulation, counsel. 9 Question: Go ahead and answer that, sir. Answer: 10 Your question is have we ever had an industrial 11 hygienist visit a plant where the products were 12 being -- the friction products themselves were being 13 installed or removed? Question: Which contained 14 asbestos. Yes, sir. Answer: Not that I know of." 15 So I'm confused. In 2009, you appear not to 16 have an understanding that there was an industrial 17 hygienist at the plant where asbestos-containing 18 materials were being installed? 19 MR. WINTERMAN: And removed. 20 A. Is that your question? 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. I just explained to you that we don't install 23 and remove the asbestos friction products at the 24 plant in Westmoreland. Those components come inside 25 of another -- front wheel assembly, left or right or 244 1 the whole rear axle. So I said if you mean within 2 another component, yes, we do put them on the car, 3 but we don't touch the friction products. They are 4 inside o f other component. Nobody is taking the 5 brake shoes and putting them on the car or taking 6 them o ff the car. They are putting a whole wheel 7 assem bly on, and within that wheel assem bly is the 8 brake shoes. 9 Q. So your testim ony today under oath is that 10 you don't have any inform ation that an industrial 11 hygienist was present and monitoring any -- at any 12 V olksw agen plant the actual -- let me m ake it very 13 specific -- taking out o f boxes o f brake parts that 14 contain asbestos? 15 MR. FINBERG: Object to the form o f the 16 question. It's -- it is oppressive and 17 harassing in that form. 18 MR. W INTERM AN: I object to the form of 19 the question just because it's vague and 20 ambiguous now because you started and 21 stopped. If you w ant to rephrase it, maybe 22 it will be clearer for the record. 23 MR. ZADOROZNY: I don't, but if he 24 doesn't understand it, I will rephrase it. 25 MR. WINTERMAN: Okay. Then my formal 245 1 objection is vague, ambiguous, uncertain and 2 unintelligible. 3 THE WITNESS: I am not sure of what your 4 question is right at the moment. Maybe you 5 could restate or have the reporter read it 6 back to me. 7 BY MR. ZADOROZNY: 8 Q. I will restate it. My question is, are you 9 aware that there was an industrial hygienist 10 employed by Volkswagen that monitored work in plants 11 that actually involved the -- I'm going to make it 12 very simple -- the removal o f asbestos brakes from 13 boxes? 14 MR. WINTERMAN: Would you read the 15 question back to me, please, Ms. Reporter. 16 Thank you. 17 (Question read back as follows:) 18 "QUESTION: My question is, are you 19 aware that there was an industrial hygienist 20 employed by Volkswagen that monitored work in 21 plants -- " 22 MR. W INTERMAN: Okay. Stop. That's all 23 I needed. You mean Volkswagens Group of 24 America, Incorporate, not Volkswagen -- 25 MR. ZADOROZNY: Volkswagen Group of 246 1 America. 2 MR. WINTERMAN: Okay. With that 3 understanding, go ahead. 4 THE WITNESS: Volkswagen Group of 5 America only had one assembly plant. That 6 was in Westmoreland, Pennsylvania. And I 7 explained to you that nobody was opening up 8 boxes of brake shoes and installing them on 9 vehicles or taking them off vehicles in 10 Westmoreland. The brake shoes were included 11 in other assemblies that we received in big 12 boxes and took the whole assembly and put it 13 on the car, or took it off the car if they 14 had to take it off to reinstall it for some 15 reason. We were not dealing with boxes of 16 brake shoes coming in and assembling brake 17 components. That was not done in 18 Westmoreland. 19 BY MR. ZADOROZNY: 20 Q. So you don't recall any sort of industrial 21 hygienist doing any kind of study of that type of 22 removing asbestos-containing brake shoes from boxes? 23 MR. WINTERMAN: At the factory? 24 THE WITNESS: At the factory? 25 HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. VOLUME 2 247 1 BY MR. ZADOROZNY: 2 Q. Anywhere at Volkswagen. 3 A. Now you have changed it again. 4 MR. FINBERG: Objection. Object to the 5 form. Vague and ambiguous as to Volkswagen. 6 BY MR. ZADOROZNY: 7 Q. Excuse me. I keep forgetting. VW GOA? 8 A. You changed the question again. W e have one 9 assembly plant where the industrial hygienist was 10 monitoring the interior o f the plant. I mentioned 11 earlier there was a W orkm en's Com p claim concerning 12 a parts warehouse where there was a claim concerning 13 asbestos, and he did go there, monitored the work 14 area for returned brake parts, which were being 15 taken out o f boxes and sorted into other boxes for 16 return to the brake reliner. He monitored that, 17 found out that the asbestos levels in the work area 18 were below OSHA specifications. That he did do. 19 That is the only thing I know of. I know he also, 20 in his monitoring o f the factory in W estm oreland, 21 found some maintenance room in the plant that had 22 high levels o f asbestos, but again below the OSHA 23 levels. Those are the only two asbestos readings 24 that I know that this man ever found. 25 Q. Okay. And were there reports for either of 248 1 those? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And have those reports been produced in this 4 litigation? 5 A. I don't know. 6 Q. Do you have copies of those reports in your 7 office someplace? 8 A. I don't, no. But m y counsel does. 9 Q. And this warehouse that you're talking about, 10 this parts w arehouse, is that a Volksw agen -- excuse 11 me -- is that a V W G O A facility? 12 A. Y es, it w as at the time. It's the one that 13 we to o k over from the distributor that owned it 14 prior to us buying the distributorship back. 15 Q. Did VW G O A then send the industrial hygienist 16 to all o f the parts warehouses to m onitor to see if 17 there w as any issue with asbestos exposure? 18 A. No. It was felt that the levels were okay 19 th e re , they should be okay in the other ones. 20 Q. And when was this, do you know? 21 A. I don't want to guess. The report would 22 reflect the date. 23 Q. Not only is one o f your duties at V W G O A to 24 testify as an expert w itness, but you also are 25 responsible for providing technical assistance in 249 1 the defense of product liability cases, correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What percentage of your job is that part of 4 it, providing the technical assistance in the 5 defense of product liability cases? 6 MR. WINTERMAN: You are talking about 7 presently? 8 BY MR. ZADOROZNY: 9 Q. Presently? 10 A. In actual case defense? 11 Q. Yes. 12 A. Less than ten percent. 13 Q. And as part of that, have you researched 14 historical knowledge of asbestos? 15 A. I'm sorry, is that your question? 16 Q. Yes. 17 A. I didn't know you were finished. I am sorry. 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. I had researched some information on asbestos 20 years ago, but again, I'm not the main person who 21 would testify concerning asbestos and what it's made 22 up of. 23 Q. Okay. Have you done research in terms of 24 when VW GOA first obtained any information concerning 25 dangers associated with exposure to asbestos? 250 1 A. I haven't done research. I w as there in the 2 '70s when this inform ation w as unfolding, and that's 3 where my knowledge comes from. 4 Q. And w hy do you say that the know ledge w as 5 unfolding in the '70s? Let's ju st say today. Are 6 you not aware that there was research and papers, 7 you know, as early as the '40s involving dangers 8 associated with asbestos? 9 MR. W IN T E R M A N : T he question is 10 compound. Argumentative. 11 TH E W IT N E S S : I'm sorry. Is everybody 12 finished with their objections? 13 MR. W INTERMAN: Yes. 14 THE W ITNESS: I was talking about the 15 autom obile industry, and the inform ation that 16 there w as asbestos in autom obiles and that -- 17 w hich everybody in the autom obile industry 18 knew anyway from day one, but that there was 19 som e question as to w h e th er the asbestos in 20 autom obiles was harmful to people working on 21 the vehicles and people driving the vehicles 22 and people around the vehicles, as it w as 23 being discussed, norm ally in buildings and 24 other areas. 25 HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. VOLUME 2 251 1 BY MR. ZADOROZNY: 2 Q. But w hat I'm talking about is m ore general 3 knowledge. T he know ledge that if you breathe in 4 asbestos it can kill you. You're aw are that there 5 were papers and studies going back actually to the 6 Teens and the '20s, certainly by the '40s, talking 7 about dangers associated with breathing asbestos? 8 MR. FINBERG: Objection. Argumentative. 9 Misstates. Lack of foundation. 10 THE W ITNESS: W ell, again, I know there 11 are different types of asbestos, and I know 12 the type of asbestos th a t's in autom obiles. 13 And w as m ore interested in th e p e rform ance of 14 that particular product, not what was 15 happening with the buildings and other 16 things, insulation materials, siding for 17 houses, floor tiles, and all those things 18 going on. W e didn't have th o se th in g s in 19 autom obiles. W e were using som ething else. 20 And my research had led me to believe that 21 those typ e s o f asbestos used in autom obiles 22 was not causing this particular type of 23 injury. 24 BY MR. ZADOROZNY: 25 Q. Okay. Tell me w hat -- strike that. 252 1 W hen did you do that research? 2 A. It started in 1983. 3 Q. Okay. So -- and I want to make this clear. 4 VW G O A started researching the issue after it was 5 served with its first lawsuit? 6 MR. FINBERG: Misstates. 7 TH E W ITN ESS : You just asked me when did 8 I first do it. I first started doing it in 9 1983. Other people at Volkswagen Group of 10 America or Volkswagen o f America, as it was 11 known then, may have done it. I don't know. 12 BY MR. ZADOROZNY: 13 Q. Have you tried to talk to anyone or ask 14 anyone about when they may have started to raise 15 issues concerning dangers associated with asbestos? 16 A. Yes, I did. 17 Q. W ho did you try to talk to about that 18 specific issue? 19 A. Back when this case first came in in 1983, I 20 started looking into what we knew at Volkswagen of 21 America, and Volkswagen Group o f America is a 22 marketing company. We're not an engineering 23 company. W e're not a research company. W e're a 24 sales company. W e sell cars, parts and accessories. 25 And, therefore, there's limited information as to 253 1 how a car is designed and what a car is made o f at a 2 marketing organization. But when the case came in, 3 I started asking around as to what we had in the way 4 o f information concerning asbestos. I talked to 5 G unther Storbeck, who was in charge o f the emissions 6 group at the time. He was the guy that I thought 7 would be receiving whatever information there was 8 concerning asbestos or anything concerning bad air 9 quality in the cars. And I talked to him. And I 10 also talked to a couple o f the factory engineers at 11 the time for other reasons. 12 Q. W hat did they tell you? 13 A. That, as I know, that there is asbestos in 14 cars. The type o f asbestos that we had been using 15 and were using was chrysotile. That it was not seen 16 to be a cancer-causing material in the applications 17 within vehicles, and that there was no problem with 18 it. Other types o f asbestos, which were being found 19 in buildings and other products, and those were 20 harmful to the public. 21 Q. And did they point you to any literature that 22 supported that position? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did they tell you they had researched it or 25 talked to a doctor about that position? 254 1 A. The factory engineers had, yes. 2 Q. Do you know which doctor they had talked to? 3 A. No. A German doctor within the factory at 4 the time. 5 Q. And you keep talking about chrysotile as -- 6 strike that. Let me ask you this. 7 Were you told that chrysotile asbestos does 8 not cause cancer? 9 A. I was told that there was no evidence that 10 chrysotile asbestos used in automobiles was causing 11 any cancer problems. 12 Q. Any cancer at all? 13 A. That's what I just said. 14 Q. And based on what these engineers told you, 15 did any o f them have any medical background? 16 A. They were dealing with medical staff at the 17 factory. I had no reason to doubt them. They are 18 experts in their own particular areas. 19 Q. And these were engineers from Volkswagen AG? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And is it your testimony that Volkswagen, 22 based on these conversations with engineers in the 23 '80s, made a determination that the asbestos in 24 whatever products that they were distributing was 25 not dangerous? HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. VOLUME 2 255 1 MR. WINTERMAN: Would you restate the 2 question? I'm sorry. W ould you reread the 3 question to me please, Ms. Reporter? 4 (Question read back as follows:) 5 "Q UESTIO N: And is it your testim ony 6 that Volkswagen, based on these conversations 7 with engineers in the '80s, m ade a 8 determ ination that the asbestos in w hatever 9 products that they were distributing was not 10 dangerous?" 11 MR. W INTERM AN: Let's go back. My 12 objection is you've now switched Volkswagen 13 again and we got to stay with -- 14 MR. ZADOROZNY: VWGOA. 15 MR. WINTERMAN: Could I have the 16 question -- 17 MR. ZADO RO ZN Y: You want it restated? 18 MR. W INTERM AN: Yes, please. 19 BY MR. ZADOROZNY: 20 Q. So, is it your testim ony today that V W G O A in 21 reliance upon what a couple o f engineers told you 22 determ ined that they believed that the asbestos in 23 th e ir -- what they were distributing did not cause 24 cancer? 25 MR. FINBERG: Objection. Argumentative. 256 1 THE W ITNESS: I don't think that's the 2 whole story. 3 BY MR. ZADOROZNY: 4 Q. W hat's the whole story? 5 MR. FINBERG: Objection. Vague and 6 am biguous. C alls fo r a narrative. 7 THE W ITNESS: It does call fo r a 8 narrative. The question of asbestos w as 9 g e n era lly b e in g d iscussed in the autom obile 10 industry at that time. And the autom obile 11 m anufacturers and the people involved with 12 the braking system s within vehicles were 13 talking to one another and being involved. 14 And the conclusion w as that the type of 15 a sb e sto s being used in the ca rs, and 16 sp e cifica lly in o u r ca rs, w a s not the 17 dangerous type and w as not causing any harm 18 to our custom ers or the people working around 19 our cars or the people walking around our 20 cars. And that w as the conclusion based upon 21 input from a num ber o f people, both from 22 G erm any and within the company. But again, 23 Volkswagen of Am erica w as a marketing 24 com pany, and we rely upon the m anufacturer 25 and supplier of the part to advise us 257 1 concerning the application o f the part and 2 the safety o f the part. 3 BY MR. ZADOROZNY: 4 Q. One o f the m anufacturers and suppliers o f the 5 part was Volkswagen AG, correct? 6 A. They were our main supplier and manufacturer, 7 yes. 8 Q. Right. And at som e point there was warnings 9 on the products that you received, correct? 10 A. W hich products? 11 Q. A sbestos-containing products that VG O A 12 received from its m anufacturers. 13 A. From some o f the suppliers there were 14 w arnings on th e boxes, not from all suppliers. 15 Q. How about Volksw agen AG, did it warn? 16 A. No. 17 Q. How about the European -- I don't know what 18 it is -- EVA or EVE or w hatever you were talking 19 about -- 20 A. European Parts Exchange? EPE? 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. They did put w arnings on their boxes. 23 Q. W hat about Abex? 24 A. I don't know -- 25 MR. WYLES: Objection. Calls for 258 1 speculation. Wyles. 2 THE WITNESS: I don't know what Abex put 3 on its boxes. I don't believe we received 4 boxes from Abex. 5 BY MR. ZADOROZNY: 6 Q. But VWGOA never went out and put any warnings 7 on any of its products regarding a cancer risk 8 associated with asbestos? 9 A. You mean the products that we imported? We 10 didn't make products. W e imported the products. 11 Q. You distributed products? 12 A. And distributed them, that's correct. No, we 13 did not put anything on the boxes ourselves. 14 Q. And you never had somebody go to a doctor and 15 make a determination as to whether there was a 16 danger associated with the asbestos in parts, in 17 asbestos-containing parts, that VW GOA was 18 distributing? 19 A. Again, we are a marketing organization. We 20 have to rely upon the makers and the suppliers of 21 the components to us to do the research, and we 22 believed that they had done the research, and the 23 assurances we received from them was sufficient. 24 Q. They were warning you though at some point? 25 A. Who? HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. VOLUME 2 259 1 Q. The manufacturers. They were telling you 2 this product can cause cancer, correct? 3 MR. WINTERMAN: Misstates. 4 Mischaracterizes testimony. The question is 5 vague, ambiguous, uncertain and 6 unintelligible. I apologize again, Counsel, 7 I have to have it read back because it just 8 didn't make any sense to me. 9 MR. FINBERG: Also -- 10 MR. ZADOROZNY: Let's finish this one 11 and then we'll take a break. 12 (Question read back as follows:) 13 "QUESTION: And you never had somebody 14 go to a doctor and make a determination as to 15 whether there was a danger associated with 16 the asbestos in parts, in asbestos-containing 17 parts, that VWGOA was distributing? 18 "ANSWER: Again, we are a marketing 19 organization. We have to rely upon the 20 makers and the suppliers of the components to 21 us to do the research, and we believed that 22 they had done the research, and the 23 assurances we received from them was 24 sufficient. 25 "QUESTION: They were warning you though 260 1 at some point? 2 "ANSWER: Who? 3 "QUESTION: The manufacturers. They 4 were telling you this product can cause 5 cancer, correct?" 6 MR. WINTERMAN: That question is vague, 7 ambiguous, uncertain and unintelligible. I'm 8 not sure who you're referring to. 9 MR. ZADOROZNY: The manufacturers. 10 MR. WINTERMAN: I don't know who they 11 are. He's testified to a multitude of them 12 that supplied parts. 13 BY MR. ZADOROZNY: 14 Q. Any of them. Did any of the manufacturers of 15 the asbestos-containing products warn you that the 16 product could cause cancer? 17 A. The only supplier to us that I know of that 18 had any warning label on its product was EPE, which 19 they put a warning label on all boxes that they used 20 for distribution of brake parts to any manufacturer 21 that they made brake parts for, which there were 22 other people that they made besides us. For us they 23 did reline brake shoes for us. And the boxes we 24 received from them had a standard, what I call the 25 standard warning label that was being put on boxes 261 1 back then by some people, and they put it on all 2 their boxes for a while. 3 Q. It warned you that the product could cause 4 cancer, correct? 5 A. That's what it said on the warning label, 6 yes. 7 Q. That the product could kill people, correct? 8 A. I don't recall whether it said it could kill 9 people, but it said it could cause cancer, as I 10 recall. 11 Q. And you didn't at that time say -- 12 MR. ZADOROZNY: You know what? It's 13 time to take a break. I am sorry. Let's go 14 off the record. 15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're now going off 16 the record. The time is approximately 10:26 17 a.m. 18 (Recess from 10:26 to 10:37.) 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now going back 20 on the video record. The time is 21 approximately 10:37 a.m. 22 BY MR. ZADOROZNY: 23 Q. Mr. Cameron, when we got off I was asking 24 about warnings that VWGOA had received and what was 25 done about that. And I think we established that 262 1 there were some warnings received by VWGOA by at 2 least one manufacturer that warned about a cancer 3 risk, correct? 4 A. One of the suppliers was putting a warning on 5 its boxes, yes. 6 Q. And my question is, when VWGOA received that 7 warning, did they hire an expert doctor or an 8 industrial hygienist, or did they hire somebody to 9 go out and research the issue to determine whether 10 there was a danger associated with products that 11 they were distributing? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did they go out of their way to put any kind 14 of warning on any of the products that they were 15 distributing that contained asbestos? 16 A. No. They relied upon the information 17 supplied by the other manufacturers who were not 18 putting warnings on their boxes that it was not 19 necessary to put that warning on there. 20 Q. Okay. Now let me follow up on that. So 21 you're saying that while some of the manufacturers 22 were sending boxes that contained warnings, others 23 were not. Is that your testimony? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Okay. Then I didn't understand your HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM P. CAMERON, JR. - VOLUME 2 395 1 Obviously, we're going to meet and confer in 1 2 good faith. Hopefully, we can resolve all 2 3 these issues without having to file a motion. 3 4 However, we do th in k it's im perative that any 4 5 documents that are to be produced be produced 5 6 in a fashion such that we can review them 6 7 with time to prepare for the deposition, 7 8 which in my mind m eans either, one, I do come 8 9 out here a couple days early and they are 9 10 produced, or two, they are produced in 10 11 electronic form or som e other form in Los 11 12 Angeles days before, so that I have a chance 12 13 to review them prior to the deposition. 13 14 MR. WINTERMAN: As I indicated to 14 15 counsel earlier and to everyone else who was 15 16 on the phone, I am more than happy to meet 16 17 and confer with counsel. It is our position 17 18 that we produced the appropriate documents 18 19 that were called for and that we did assert 19 20 appropriate objections to various documents 20 21 because o f them being overbroad, vague and 21 22 ambiguous, and variety o f other reasons that 22 23 are all set forth in our objections. But 23 24 notwithstanding all o f that, I will be happy 24 25 to meet and confer with counsel and see if we 25 396 1 can agree on which d ocum ents counsel is 1 2 interested in getting, and we w ill see if we 2 3 can agree to get those documents if they 3 4 exist. And then I am also agreeable to not 4 5 having counsel have to com e all the w ay back 5 6 out here during the 4th o f July weekend or 6 7 any tim e around that, but we will try to get 7 8 them to him in LA as quickly as possible. 8 9 So, I would urge that the two o f us get 9 10 together, hopefully, maybe M onday or at least 10 11 talk on Monday, if not over the weekend. I 11 12 am m ore than happy to do it over the w eekend. 12 13 I will give you my cell phone. W e can get 13 14 the ball m oving and see w hat w e can agree on. 14 15 W e can w o rk this out and it shouldn't be a 15 16 p roblem . 16 17 MR. RODEN: All right. I appreciate - 17 18 believe me, all the w ay th rough this, both o f 18 19 you have dem onstrated the highest level of 19 20 professional skill-sets and respect for one 20 21 another. So it's much appreciated. And I 21 22 didn't want that to go unnoticed. 22 23 MR. ZADOROZNY: I do want to say -- we 23 24 can actually do this on or off the record, 24 25 that counsel at one point put on his 25 397 sunglasses and threw me off. I recovered quickly. So that w as okay. MR. W INTERM AN: The fluorescent light w a s so b righ t in here. MR. ZADOROZNY: That m akes sense. MR. W IN T E R M A N : W e are -- ju s t in te rm s of the expansion of the scope of the deposition to include an am endm ent, again, that will be som ething that we will address with counsel. I don't w ant to let anybody believe that we are agreeing with that, but we will certainly address it, and m eet and confer and see if we can arrive at an agreem ent w ith respect to that. If we can't, then it will be som ething that would have to be taken up with the discovery referee. MR. RODEN: And then be sure to get on R.A. C arrington's dance card fo r the 5th. MR. W INTERM AN: Oh, that's right. T hank you very much. MR. ZADOROZNY: There's going to be a switch-off. I forgot. You are going to be in the B a ltic som eplace having a good tim e. MR. RODEN: I am going to be teaching that particular w eek at Chautauqua, and it's 398 a morning class from 8:30 to 10:30 Eastern tim e. So it w ouldn't be possible fo r me to jum p on the line for this, even if we wanted to keep continuity. So if there is a problem with R.A., he and I will w ork it out. MR. ZADOROZNY: Are you going to sort of update him on the issues? MR. RODEN: Yes. I will send him an e-mail right now actually. MR. W INTERM AN: That would be great. Both for m yself and for Brent, I will tell you that we appreciate you're being involved and appreciate all your efforts on this. MR. ZADOROZNY: Thanks. MR. RODEN: You did all the work. Take care. Have a great weekend. Travel safely. (W hereupon, the deposition was adjourned at 3:33 p.m.) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. VOLUME 2 399 1 E R RA TA 2 3 4 I wish to m ake the follow ing changes, fo r the 5 follow ing reasons: 6 7 PAGE LINE 8 CHANGE: 9 REASON: 10 CHANGE: 11 REASON: 12 CHANGE: 13 REASON: 14 CHANGE: 15 REASON: 16 CHANGE: 17 REASON: 18 CHANGE: 19 REASON: 20 21 22 ROBERT CAMERON, JR. 23 24 25 DATE 400 1 C ERT IFICAT E 2 3 4 5 I, JEANNETTE McCORMICK, a Certified 6 Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public, certify that 7 the foregoing is a true and accurate Computerized 8 Transcript o f the Deposition within. 9 10 I further certify that I am neither 11 attorney, o f counsel for, nor related to or employed 12 by any o f the parties to the action in which the 13 Depositions are taken, and further that I am not a 14 relative or employee o f any attorney or counsel 15 employed in this case, nor am I financially 16 interested in the action. 17 18 19 20 21 JEANNETTE McCORMICK, C.S.R. NJ CSR No. XI-920 Expiration Date 6/30/10 22 My Notary Commission Expires on December 20, 2012 Firm No. Dallas: 69 Houston: 373 23 1-888-656-DEPO 24 25 HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM EXHIBIT D ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 1 3 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES ----------------------------------------------------------- x 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: 2 3 LAWRENCE BOMAN and SHIRLEY BOMAN, P laintiffs, -against- Case No. ALFA LAVAL, INC. (sued BC 405823 in d iv id u a lly and as successor-in-interest to THE DELAVAL SEPARATOR COMPANY and SHARPLES CORPORATION), et a l., Defendants. ----------------------------------------------------------- x 4 SIMON, EDDINS & GREENSTONE, L.L.P. 5 BY: JAY E. STUEMKE, ESQ. 6 3232 McKinney Avenue 7 Suite 610 8 Dallas, Texas 75204 9 (214) 276.7680 / (214) 276.7699 (FAX) 10 jstuemke@seglaw.com 11 Attorneys for the Plaintiffs 12 13 HERZFELD & RUBIN, L.L.P. VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF: ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. Friday, July 31, 2009 New York, New York 14 BY: CRAIG L. WINTERMAN, ESQ. 15 1925 Century Park East 16 Suite 600 17 Los Angeles, California 90067 18 (310) 553.0451 / (310) 553.0648 (FAX) 19 cwinterman@hrllp-law.com 20 Attorneys for the Defendant, 21 Volkswagen of America, Inc. and Reported in stenotype by: Rich Germosen, CCR, CRCR, RPR, CRR, CLR 22 Robert P. Cameron, Jr. 23 24 25 2 1 Videotaped Deposition o f ROBERT P. CAMERON, 2 JR., taken in the above-entitled matter before RICH 3 GERMOSEN, Certified Court Reporter, (License No. 4 30XI00184700), Certified Realtime Court Reporter-NJ, 5 (License No. 30XR00016800), NCRA Registered 6 Professional Reporter, NCRA Certified Realtime 7 Reporter, Certified LiveNote Reporter, and a Notary 8 Public within and for the States of New York and New 9 Jersey, taken at the offices o f HERZFELD & RUBIN, 10 L.L.P., 40 W all Street, New York, New York 10005, 11 on Friday, July 31,2009, commencing at 10:07 a.m. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: (CONT'D.) 2 3 4 CHARLES FINBERG, ESQ., P.L.L.C. 5 266 East Shore North 6 Grand Isle, Vermont 05458 7 (802) 372.5175 8 cfinberg@gmail.com 9 Attorneys for the Defendant, 10 Volkswagen of America, Inc. and 11 Robert P. Cameron, Jr. 12 13 ADAMS NYE TRAPANI BECHT, L.L.P. 14 BY: GEORGE A. HADDAD, ESQ., 15 (appearing telephonically) 16 222 Kearny Street 17 7th Floor 18 San Francisco, California 94108 19 (415) 982.8955 / (415) 982.2042 (FAX) 20 ghaddad@adamsnye.com 21 Attorneys for the Defendants, 22 Whirlpool Corporation and Maytag Corporation 23 24 25 HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 5 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: (C O N T 'D .) 2 3 4 H O W A R D R O M E M A R TIN & R ID LEY , L.L.P. 5 BY: T R IN A M. C LA Y TO N , ESQ ., 6 (appearing te le p ho n ica lly) 7 1775 W o o d sid e Road 8 S uite 200 9 R ed w o o d C ity, C a lifo rn ia 94061 10 (650) 356.7715 / (650) 364.5297 (FA X) 11 tcla yto n@ hrm rla w .co m 12 A tto rn eys fo r the D efendant, 13 IM O In d u strie s, Inc. 14 15 P E R K IN S C O IE, L.L.P. 16 BY: S T E V E N K. H W A N G , ESQ ., 17 (appearing te le p ho n ica lly) 18 1888 C entury Park East 19 S uite 1700 20 Los A ngeles, C alifornia 90067-1721 21 (310) 788.3217 / (310) 843.1275 (FA X) 22 skh w a n g @ p erkin sco ie .co m 23 A tto rn eys fo r the D efendant, 24 H o n e y w e ll In te rn a tio n a l, Inc. 25 6 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: (CONT'D.) 2 3 4 LYNBERG & WATKINS 5 BY: THOMAS W. REMILLARD, ESQ., 6 (appearing telephonically) 7 888 South Figueroa Street 8 16th Floor 9 Los Angeles, California 90017 10 (213) 625.8700 / (213) 892.2763 (FAX) 11 tremillard@lynberg.com 12 Attorneys for the Defendant, 13 Hill Brothers Chemical Company 14 15 PALMIERI, TYLER, WIENER, WILHELM & WALDRON, L.L.P. 16 BY: JOHN R. LISTER, ESQ., 17 (appearing telephonically) 18 2603 Main Street 19 Suite 1300 20 Irvine, California 92614 21 (949) 851.7285 / (949) 757.1225 (FAX) 22 jlister@ptwww.com 23 Attorneys for the Defendant, 24 Cla-Val Company 25 7 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: (C O N T'D .) 2 3 4 SELMAN BREITMAN, L.L.P. 5 BY: JENN IFER A. CLINGO, ESQ., 6 (appearing telephonically) 7 11766 W ilshire Boulevard 8 Suite 600 9 Los Angeles, California 90025 10 (310) 689.7042 / (310) 473.2525 (FAX) 11 jclingo@ selm anbreitm an.com 12 A ttorneys fo r the Defendant, 13 Pep Boys 14 15 POND NORTH, L.L.P. 16 BY: TIM O TH Y C. PIEPER, ESQ., 17 (appearing telephonically) 18 350 South Grand Avenue 19 Suite 2850 20 Los Angeles, California 90017 21 (213) 617.6170 / (213) 623.3594 (FAX) 22 tpieper@ pondnorth.com 23 Attorneys for the Defendants, 24 Sears, Roebuck and Co., Genuine Parts Company, 25 and W estern Auto Supply Company 8 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: (C O N T 'D .) 2 3 4 D e H A Y & E L L IS T O N , L.L.P. 5 BY: P A U L C H R IS T O P H E R W H IT E , ESQ ., 6 (a p p e a rin g te le p h o n ica lly) 7 800 W e st 6th S treet 8 S u ite 788 9 Los A n g e le s, C a lifo rn ia 9 0 0 17 10 (213) 2 7 1 .2 7 2 4 / (213) 2 7 1 .2 7 3 0 (FA X ) 11 p w h ite @ d e h a y.co m 12 A tto rn e ys fo r th e D efendant, 13 P n e u m o A bex, L.L.P. 14 15 JA C K S O N & W A L L A C E , L.L.P. 16 BY: C A T H E R IN E E. G O L D E N , E S Q ., 17 (a p p e a rin g te le p h o n ica lly) 18 5 5 F ra n cisco S tre e t 19 6 th F loo r 20 S a n F ra n cisco , C a lifo rn ia 9 4 1 3 3 21 (415) 98 2 .6 3 0 0 / (415) 98 2 .6 7 0 0 (FA X ) 22 cg o ld e n @ ja ckso n w a lla ce .co m 23 A tto rn e ys fo r th e D efendants, 24 D a p , Inc. a n d C u m m in s , Inc. 25 HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 9 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: (CONT'D.) 2 3 4 HASSARD BONNINGTON, L.L.P. 5 BY: MARK C. DAVIS, ESQ., 6 (appearing telephonically) 7 Two Embarcadero Center 8 Suite 1800 9 San Francisco, California 94111-3993 10 (415) 288.9800 / (415) 288.9802 (FAX) 11 mcd@hassard.com 12 Attorneys for the Defendant, 13 John Crane, Inc. 14 15 BOOTH, MITCHEL & STRANGE, L.L.P. 16 BY: JACKIE K. VU, ESQ., 17 (appearing telephonically) 18 707 Wilshire Boulevard 19 Suite 4450 20 Los Angeles, California 90017 21 (213) 738.0100 / (213) 380.3308 (FAX) 22 jkvu@boothmitchel.com 23 Attorneys for the Defendant, 24 Borg-Warner Corporation 25 10 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: (CONT'D.) 2 3 4 POOLE & SHAFFERY, L.L.P. 5 BY: BRIAN R. TINKHAM, ESQ., 6 (appearing telephonically) 7 445 South Figueroa Street, Suite 2520 8 Los Angeles, California 90071 9 (213) 439.5390 / (213) 439.0183 (FAX) 10 btinkham@pooleshaffery.com 11 Attorneys for the Defendant, 12 PTO Sales Corporation 13 14 FOLEY & MANSFIELD, P.L.L.P. 15 BY: KEITH M. AMEELE, ESQ., 16 (appearing telephonically) 17 150 South Los Robles Avenue 18 Suite 400 19 Pasadena, California 91101 20 (626) 744.9359 / (626) 744.1702 (FAX) 21 kameele@foleymansfield.com 22 Attorneys for the Defendants, 23 Nacco Materials Handling Group, Inc. and 24 Yale Materials Handling Corp. 25 11 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: (CO NT'D.) 2 3 4 M cKENNA LONG & ALDRIDGE, L.L.P. 5 BY: LESA M. M EYERS, ESQ., 6 (appearing telephonically) 7 444 South Flower Street 8 Los Angeles, California 90071 9 (213) 243.6122 / (213) 243.6330 (FAX) 10 lm eyers@ m ckennalong.com 11 Attorneys for the Defendants, 12 Dana Companies, L.L.C.; 13 Union Carbide Corporation; Kelsey-Hayes Company 14 15 BUTY & CURLIANO, L.L.P. 16 BY: M ADELINE L. BUTY, ESQ., 17 (appearing telephonically) 18 555 City Center 19 555 12th Street 20 Suite 1280 21 Oakland, California 94607 22 (510) 267.3000 / (510) 267.0117 (FAX) 23 m lb@ butycurliano.com 24 Attorneys for the Defendant, 25 PACCAR, Inc. 12 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: (C O N T'D .) 2 3 4 PR IN D LE, D E C KER & A M A R O , L.L.P. 5 BY: JA M E S G. M U R R AY, ESQ., 6 (appearing telephonically) 7 310 G olden Shore, 4th Floor 8 Long Beach, C alifornia 90802 9 (562) 436.3946 / (562) 495.0564 (FAX) 10 jm urray@ pdalaw .com 11 A ttorneys for the Defendant, 12 E delbrock Corp. 13 14 BRYDON HUGO & PARKER 15 BY: JO S E T T E D. JO H N S O N , ESQ., 16 (appearing telephonically) 17 -and- 18 BY: PEGAH SHETABI, ESQ. 19 135 M ain Street, 20th Floor 20 San Francisco, C alifornia 94105 21 (415) 808.0300 / (415) 808.0333 (FAX) 22 jjohnson@ bhplaw .com / pshetabi@ bhplaw .com 23 Attorneys for the Defendants, 24 Luk C lutch System s, L.L.C. and 25 S ch a e ffle r G rou p USA, Inc. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 13 15 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: (CONT'D.) 2 3 1 EX HIBIT S 2 DESCRIPTION PAGE LINE 3 (Exhibit 1 for 27 1 4 WALSWORTH, FRANKLIN, BEVINS & McCALL, L.L.P. 4 identification, multi-page 5 BY: STEPHANIE ROTHBERG , ESQ., 5 document on Simon Eddins & 6 (appearing telephonically) 6 Greenstone letterhead, dated 7 One City Boulevard West 7 July 28th, 2009, not bearing 8 Fifth Floor 9 Orange, California 92868 8 Bates stamps.) 9 10 (714) 634.2522 / (714) 634.0686 (FAX) 10 (Exhibit 2 for 37 1 11 srothberg@ wfbm.com 11 identification, multi-page 12 Attorneys for the Defendants, 12 document entitled Notice of 13 Bondex International, Inc.; RPM, Inc.; 13 Taking The Videotaped 14 RPM International, Inc.; Hamilton Materials, Inc.; 14 Deposition of Volkswagen of 15 Dowman Products, Inc.; CRA Trailers, Inc.; 15 America, Inc. and For 16 Utility Trailer Manufacturing Company; 16 Production of Documents, not 17 Jerguson Gage & Valve Co.; Clark-Reliance 18 Corporation, as the claimed successor-in-interest 17 bearing Bates stamps.) 18 19 to Jerguson Gage & Valve Co. 19 (Exhibit 3 for 63 6 20 20 identification, one-page 21 ALSO PRESENT: 21 document entitled Volkswagen 22 DAVID DUNN, Legal Video Specialist 22 Group of America, not bearing 23 23 a Bates stamp.) 24 24 25 25 14 1 IN D EX 2 WITNESS EXAMINATION 3 ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 4 BY MR. STUEMKE 27 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 16 1 E X H I B I T S (CONT'D.) 2 DESCRIPTION PAGE LINE 3 (Exhibit 4 for 66 18 4 identification, multi-page 5 document entitled Volkswagen 6 Makes Automotive History, not 7 bearing Bates stamps.) 8 9 (Exhibit 5 for 135 20 10 identification, one-page New 11 York Times article published 12 September 30th, 1972 entitled 13 Shipyard Workers of 1940s 14 Told of Cancer Peril, not 15 bearing a Bates stamp.) 16 17 (Exhibit 6 for 140 8 18 identification, one-page New 19 York Times article published 20 October 5th, 1972 entitled 21 Wider Link to Cancer Found in 22 Asbestos Workers, not bearing 23 a Bates stamp.) 24 25 HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 17 1 E X H I B I T S (CONT'D.) 2 DESCRIPTION PAGE LINE 3 (Exhibit 7 for 185 1 4 identification, multi-page 5 document entitled Gt I, Golf, 6 and Jetta Official Factory 7 Repair Manual 1985, 1986 8 Including GLI, Gasoline, 9 Diesel, and Turbo Diesel, not 10 bearing Bates stamps.) 11 12 (Exhibit 8 for 206 3 13 identification, multi-page 14 document on Herzfeld & Rubin 15 letterhead, dated July 29th, 16 2009, not bearing Bates 17 stamps.) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 18 1 E X H I B I T S (C O N T'D .) 2 D ESC R IPTIO N PAG E LINE 3 (E xhibit 9 fo r 206 8 4 identification, m ulti-page 5 d ocum ent entitled A uthorized 6 V o lksw agen D ealer D irectory, 7 N orth and C entral A m e rica, 8 D ece m b e r 1 9 8 7 , not bearing 9 Bates stam ps.) 10 **original exhibits returned w ith original transcript by HG LITIG A TIO N SE R V IC E S to 11 S IM O N E D D IN S & G R E E N S T O N E , L.L.P. (exhibit index concluded) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 19 1 PRODUCTION OF DOCUMENTS AND/OR INFORMATION 2 Page Line 3 (none) 4 5 6 DIRECTION TO WITNESS NOT TO ANSWER 7 Page Line 8 79 2 9 154 19 10 11 1 2 QUESTIONS MARKED FOR LATER RULING 13 Page Line 14 (none) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 20 1 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED, by 2 and between the attorneys for the respective parties 3 herein, that filing and sealing be and the same are 4 hereby waived. 5 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED 6 that all objections, except as to the form of the 7 question, shall be preserved to the time of trial. 8 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED 9 that the within deposition may be signed and sworn 10 to before any officer authorized to administer an 11 oath, with the same force and effect as if signed 12 and sworn to before the officer before whom the 13 within deposition was taken. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 21 1 PROC EED INGS 2 THE VID EO G R APH ER : Stand by, 3 please. 4 M y name is David Dunn. Today is 5 Friday, July 31st, 2009. 6 The tim e is approxim ately seven 7 m inutes after 10 a.m. 8 W e are at the law office of 9 Herzfeld & Rubin, 40 W all Street, 54th Street, New 10 York, New York. 11 This Cause Num ber is BC405823 12 entitled Boman versus Alfa Laval, Incorporated, et 13 al. 14 The deponent for to d ay is 15 M r. Robert P. Cam eron, Jr. 16 The video deposition is requested 17 by the Plaintiffs' counsel Simon Eddins & 18 G reenstone, L.L.P. 19 Will each o f the attorneys present 20 please identify them selves and state their 21 interest in the case. 22 MR. STUEMKE: Jay Stuemke with 23 Simon Eddins & Greenstone appearing on behalf of 24 the Plaintiffs. 25 MR. W INTERM AN: Craig W interm an of 22 1 Herzfeld & Rubin appearing on behalf o f Defendant 2 V olksw agen G roup o f A m erica, Inc. 3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: If the attorneys 4 on the phone will also state their appearance for 5 the video record. 6 MS. CLAYTON: Good morning. 7 This is Trina Clayton for Defendant 8 IMO Industries. 9 MR. LISTER: Good morning. 10 This is John Lister appearing on 11 behalf o f Cla-Val Company. 12 MS. C LING O : T his is Jennifer, 13 Jennifer Clingo, appearing on behalf o f Pep Boys. 14 MS. JOHNSON: Josette Johnson 15 appearing on behalf o f Luk Clutch Systems, L.L.C. 16 and Schaeffler Group USA, Inc. 17 MR. HADDAD: Good morning. 18 This is G eorges Haddad on behalf of 19 W hirlpool C orporation and M aytag Corporation. 20 MR. DAVIS: Good morning. 21 Mark Davis for Defendant John 22 Crane, Inc. 23 Yale Materials Handling Corp. 24 MR. AM EELE: Good morning. 25 Keith Am eele for Yale and Nacco 23 1 Handling Corp. 2 MR. HWANG: Good morning. 3 Steve Hwang for Honeywell 4 International, Inc. 5 MR. MURRAY: Good morning. 6 Jim Murray on behalf of Edelbrock. 7 MS. ROTHBERG: Good morning. 8 My name is Stephanie Rothberg on 9 behalf o f Bondex International, Inc.; RPM, Inc.; 10 RPM International, Inc.; Hamilton Materials, Inc.; 11 Dowman Products, Inc.; CRA Trailers, Inc.; Utility 12 Trailers Manufacturing Company; Jerguson Gage & 13 Valve Company; and Clark-Reliance Corporation, as 14 the claims successor-in-interest to Jerguson Gage 15 & Valve Company. 16 MR. TINKHAM: Good morning. 17 Brian Tinkham on behalf o f PTO 18 Sales Corporation. 19 MR. REMILLARD: Good morning. 20 Thomas Remillard on behalf o f Hill 21 Brothers Chemical Company. 22 MS. MEYERS: Good morning. 23 Lesa Meyers appearing on behalf of 24 Dana Companies, L.L.C., Kelsey-Hayes Company and 25 Union Carbide Corporation. 24 1 MS. GOLDEN: Good morning. 2 This is Catherine Golden for Dap 3 and Cummins. 4 MR. PIEPER: Good morning. 5 This is Tim Pieper on behalf of 6 Genuine Parts Company, Western Auto Supply Company 7 and Sears Roebuck and Co. 8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: At this time the 9 court reporter may swear in the witness. 10 (Whereupon, the court reporter 11 administered the oath to the witness.) 12 MR. STUEMKE: And we'll wait just a 13 moment for defense counsel who stepped out 14 momentarily. 15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Would you like 16 me to go off the record, Mr. Stuemke? 17 MR. STUEMKE: No, he should be 18 right back. 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Okay. 20 MR. STUEMKE: All right. 21 Before we get started, the 22 deposition notice which I'll attach as Exhibit 1 23 requested that documents be produced at the 24 deposition. 25 Prior to the deposition HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 25 1 Plaintiffs' counsel made numerous written 2 requests to defense counsel that we be provided 3 these docum ents in advance o f the deposition so 4 that we may fully and fairly consider the 5 docum ents and interrogate the witness about those 6 documents so that we may conclude the deposition 7 today. 8 Other than certain I think four, 9 m ay be five listings o f authorized Volkswagen 10 dealers from various years in the 11 nineteen-eighties, no docum ents were produced to 12 the Plaintiffs prior to this deposition and the 13 only docum ents that have been brought to the 14 deposition by Defendant is one additional 15 authorized Volkswagen dealer directory from 1987. 16 As a result o f this, the 17 Plaintiffs will not be able to conclude the 18 deposition o f Volkswagen today and fully 19 anticipate that we will need to resume this 20 deposition at a later date after having received 21 the requested documents. 22 Subject to that qualification, 23 Plaintiffs are prepared to and will take the 24 deposition of Volkswagen's PM K today to the 25 extent that it's possible in light o f the phase 26 1 o f discovery and reserve our rights to resume 2 later. 3 MR. WINTERMAN: Let me just respond 4 by indicating that there -- I think it's prem ature 5 for counsel to indicate that he can't conclude a 6 deposition until he's had an opportunity to 7 question the witness and find out if there is any 8 documents that even pertain to the various 9 categories that have been requested. 10 In addition, there is nothing in 11 the Code o f Civil procedure that requires that 12 docum ents be produced in advance o f the deposition 13 notice where the deposition notice specifically 14 requested that the docum ents be produced at the 15 depo. 16 A s a courtesy we did produce some 17 records in advance. 18 MR. STUEMKE: Let's mark this as 19 Exhibit 1. 20 COURT REPORTER: (Complies.) 21 (Whereupon, multi-page document on 22 Simon Eddins & Greenstone letterhead, dated July 23 28th, 2009, not bearing Bates stamps, is received 24 and marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1 for 25 Identification.) 27 1 CO U R T REPO RTER: Num ber 1. 2 MR. STUEMKE: Marked as Exhibit 1 3 the correspondence dated July 28th, 2009 from 4 Jennifer Bartlett at Simon Eddins & Greenstone to 5 Craig W interm an o f Herzfeld & Rubin in 6 Los Angeles, relating to the deposition notice and 7 also included in Exhibit 1 is the first am ended 8 notice o f taking videotaped deposition of 9 V olksw agen Group o f Am erica, Inc. and for 10 production o f docum ents. 11 12 R O B E R T P. C A M E R O N, J.R., 13 conducting business at V olksw agen o f Am erica, 14 Inc., One Executive Drive, Suite LL50, Fort Lee, 15 New Jersey 07024, having been first duly sworn or 16 affirm ed by a Notary Public w ithin and fo r the 17 States o f New York and New Jersey, was examined 18 and testified as follows: 19 EXAMINATION BY MR. STUEMKE: 20 Q. Mr. Cam eron, I'd like to go 21 through with you the areas o f inquiry that are 22 identified in Exhibit 1. 23 It's my understanding, sir, that 24 you have a copy o f the original notice o f taking 25 this deposition in front o f you, is that correct? 28 1 A. I have a notice o f taking 2 dep osition . I d o n 't kn o w w hich one it is. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. It's one th a t w as given to me. 5 Q. A ll right. 6 And if you would turn, sir, to 7 the, it's probably the third page. It has a t the 8 top o f it areas o f inquiry, perhaps the fourth 9 page. 10 MR. W IN TE R M A N : It's the second 11 page. 12 MR. STUEMKE: Okay. 13 A. It has down at the top o f the 14 page, not a t the top o f the page unless you're 15 w orking from a d ifferent d o cum ent th a t I'm 16 working from. 17 18 BY MR. STUEMKE: 19 Q. I am. It's a slightly different 20 docum ent, but the areas o f inquiry are the same. 21 MR. W INTERM AN: Do you w ant a copy 22 o f the original, Counsel? 23 MR. STU EM KE : I have, I have it 24 here. I can flip to it. 25 HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 29 1 BY MR. STUEMKE: 2 Q. In a n y event, sir, you se e th a t 3 there are areas of inquiry that are set forth for 4 w hich you are going to be giving testim ony, is 5 that correct? 6 A. Yes, that's correct. 7 Q. And have you review ed those areas 8 of inquiry, sir? 9 A. Yes, I have. 10 Q. Okay. 11 And are you prepared to give 12 testim ony on behalf of Volkswagen G roup of 13 A m erica, Inc. relating to area of inquiry N um ber 14 1? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Are you the person most 17 know ledgeable at V olksw agen o f A m erica, Inc. 18 relating to area o f inquiry N um ber 1? 19 A. A t the present tim e, yes. 20 Q. Are you the person most 21 know ledgeable relating to area of inquiry Num ber 22 2, sir? 23 A. Yes, I am. 24 Q. Are you the person most 25 know ledgeable relating to area of inquiry Num ber 30 1 3, sir? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Are you the person most 4 know ledgeable regarding area o f inquiry Num ber 4, 5 sir? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Are you the person most 8 know ledgeable regarding area o f inquiry Num ber 5, 9 sir? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Are you the person most 12 knowledgeable regarding area o f inquiry Number 6? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Are you the person most 15 knowledgeable regarding area o f inquiry Number 7? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Are you the person most 18 know ledgeable regarding area o f inquiry Num ber 8, 19 sir? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay. 22 MR. STUEMKE: And for counsel on 23 the phone, if, if you don't mind putting your 24 te lephones on m ute unless you anticipate an 25 objection, that would be appreciated. W e're 31 1 hearing some interference and some talking in the 2 background. 3 Thank you. 4 MR. WINTERMAN: Counsel, can we get 5 an agreement that if there are any objections, an 6 objection by one is an objection by all so that 7 counsel don't have to state their names -- 8 MR. STUEMKE: Certainly. 9 MR. WINTERMAN: -- on the record? 10 That would be as to the Defendants. 11 MR. STUEMKE: Certainly. 12 MR. WINTERMAN: Thank you. 13 14 BY MR. STUEMKE: 15 Q. Mr. Cameron, are you the person 16 most knowledgeable for Volkswagen of America 17 relating to area of inquiry Number 9? 18 MR. W INTERM AN: As to Num ber 9, 19 there is an im proper request and we're going to be 20 objecting to any inquiry into 9 which asks for 21 Defendant's contentions. Going to be doing the 22 same thing with respect to request Num ber 10; same 23 thing with 11; and same thing with regard 24 to -- well, I'll let 16 go, but those particular 25 ones are legal. They're not factual. He's here 32 1 as a representative of the company to discuss 2 factual m aterials with respect to the company, not 3 legal matters. 4 MR. STUEMKE: Okay. 5 So just to cut this short, 6 Mr. W interm an, you're telling me that he's not 7 produced as a PM K with respect to areas 9, 10 and 8 11? 9 MR. W INTERM AN: Correct. 10 11 B Y MR. STUEM KE: 12 Q. Mr. Cam eron, are you the person 13 most knowledgeable with respect to area of 14 inquiry Number 12? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Mr. Cam eron, are you the person 17 most knowledgeable with respect to area of 18 inquiry Number 13? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Mr. Cam eron, are you the person 21 most knowledgeable with respect to area of 22 inquiry Number 14? 23 MR. W INTERM AN: And 14, again, he 24 w on't -- he is the person most, one o f the persons 25 most knowledgeable at the company, but he will not HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 33 1 be responding to th a t until there is an 2 appropriate m otion made under California law that 3 allow s the party to inquire into financials. 4 MR. STUEM KE: So he's not produced 5 today as a PM K on that issue? 6 MR. W IN TER M AN : He is produced 7 today, but he's not going to respond to any 8 questioning on th a t area because there's been no 9 appropriate m otion made as required by California 10 law. 11 MR. STUEM KE: So ju s t to save time, 12 is it my understanding that you're going to 13 instruct him not to answ er any questions on those 14 issues? 15 MR. W IN TER M AN : Yes, to save time, 16 that would be correct. 17 MR. STUEMKE: Thank you. 18 MR. W IN T E R M A N : A n d I'll stipulate 19 th a t he'll -- 20 MR. STUEM KE: And we'll preserve 21 our rights under that. Very good. 22 MR. W IN TERM AN: Absolutely. 23 24 BY MR. STUEMKE: 25 Q. Mr. Cam eron, are you the person 34 1 m ost know ledgeable w ith respect to area of 2 inquiry N um ber 15? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q . A re you the person m ost 5 know ledgeable w ith respect to area o f inquiry 6 Num ber 16? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Okay. 9 S ir, if you look at the section of 10 th e notice e ntitled in stru ctio n s re w ritin g s 11 requested. 12 Do you see that? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay. 15 Do you see th a t you are requested 16 to p ro d u ce a t th is d e p o sitio n all w ritin g s used 17 to either su p p ort your testim ony or refresh your 18 re c o lle c tio n . 19 H ave you looked at any docum ents 20 in a d v a n c e o f to d a y 's d e p o s itio n to p re p a re fo r 21 the deposition? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. W h a t have you looked at? 24 A. I looked at the notice and I 25 lo o ke d at o u r re sp o n se s to I b elieve it w as 35 1 interrogatories requested to produce or 3, legal 2 documents. 3 MR. STUEMKE: Okay. 4 MR. W INTERM AN: Those are the ones 5 that I provided to you, Counsel, prior to going on 6 the record. 7 MR. S TU EM KE : I'll ju s t identify 8 these for the record. 9 10 BY MR. STUEMKE: 11 Q. W e have firs t a d o cu m e n t filed by 12 Mr. W interm an's office entitled responses to form 13 interrogatories propounded to Defendant 14 V o lksw a g e n G roup o f A m erica, Inc., s e t 1. 15 Is that one o f the docum ents you 16 reviewed, sir? 17 A. Yes, it is. 18 Q. Okay. 19 I w as also handed a docum ent filed 20 by Mr. W in te rm a n 's office entitled resp o n se s to 21 standard interrogatories propounded to friction 22 Defendant Volksw agen G roup o f Am erica, Inc., set 23 1. 24 Is that one o f the docum ents you 25 reviewed, sir? 36 1 A. Yes, it is. 2 Q. Finally I w a s handed a do cu m e n t 3 file d by Mr. W in te rm a n 's office entitled 4 responses to standard interrogatories propound to 5 Defendant Volksw agen G roup o f Am erica, Inc. set 6 1. 7 Is that one o f the docum ents you 8 reviewed, sir? 9 A. Yes, it is. 10 Q. Okay. 11 And is the copy o f the notice that 12 you were, you've been looking at fo r the 13 questions I've asked you already today, is that 14 the notice that you reviewed? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Okay. 17 MR. STUEM KE: Let's go ahead and 18 m ark that as Exhibit 2 ju s t for the record. 19 COURT REPORTER: (Complies.) 20 (W hereupon, m ulti-page docum ent 21 entitled Notice o f Taking The Videotaped 22 Deposition o f Volksw agen o f Am erica, Inc. and For 23 Production of Documents, not bearing Bates 24 stamps, is received and marked as Plaintiffs' 25 Exhibit 2 for Identification.) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 37 1 C O U R T R E P O R T E R : N u m b e r 2. 2 3 BY MR. STUEMKE: 4 Q. Mr. C am eron, did you review any 5 docum ents other than w hat w e've ju st discussed? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Sir, if you lo o k back at the 8 n o tice in th e w ritin g s re q u e ste d section, do you 9 see that Num ber 2 requests all writings that 10 relate to the areas of inquiry num bered above. 11 A. (Reviews.) 12 Q. D o you see that? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay. 15 And we looked back at area of 16 in q u iry N u m b e r 1, it a sks a b o u t fa cts, w itn e s s e s 17 and docum ents regarding D efendant's corporate 18 history. 19 Now, you would agree that there 20 are certain -- Volksw agen G roup of Am erica, Inc. 21 c e rta in ly d o e s have d o cu m e n ts re la tin g to its 22 corporate history, correct? 23 MR. W INTERM AN: That's an im proper 24 question as to form. 25 Q. You can answ er the question. 38 1 A. W hat do you m ean docum ents to its 2 history? The company has been around since 1955. 3 W hat are you looking for? 4 Q. Are there docum ents, sir? 5 A. I don't know what you mean. 6 MR. WINTERMAN: Excuse me, the 7 question is vague and am biguous. 8 A. Are you looking for a copy o f the 9 incorporation or something o f that nature? 10 Q. Are there documents that exist 11 relating to D efendant's corporate history, sir? 12 A. There should be a copy o f the 13 incorporation som eplace, yes. 14 Q. Okay. 15 Is that the only docum ent relating 16 to D efendant's corporate history? 17 A. I don't know what you mean by the 18 com pany's corporate history. 19 MR. WINTERMAN: That was the 20 problem with the request, Counsel. It's vague and 21 am biguous and we're not obligated to piece stuff 22 together to give you corporate history and that's 23 w hy there is nothing that's being produced here 24 today. 25 Q. Sir, does Volkswagen have a 39 1 docum ent destruction policy? A docum ent 2 retention policy? 3 A. Yes, it does. 4 Q. Okay. 5 Is that written down anywhere? 6 A. Y e s, it is. 7 Q. Y ou've not produced th a t to d ay, 8 have you? 9 A. N o, it's a recent docum ent 10 retention policy. It's about two years old. 11 Q. Okay. 12 You've not produced that today, 13 correct? 14 A. No, I thought you wanted the one 15 th a t w a s in e ffe ct a t the tim e w e're ta lkin g 16 a b o u t in th is p a rticu la r litigation and w e don 't 17 have copies of that any longer. 18 Q. Okay. 19 MR. W INTERM AN: And again, Counsel, 20 ju st for the record, that's w hy we didn't produce 21 it. It's irre le va n t be ca use it only pertains to 22 m ost recent tim es -- 23 MR. STUEMKE: W ell -- 24 MR. W INTERM AN: -- and this lawsuit 25 involves -- 40 1 MR. STUEM KE: -- as you know, 2 Mr. W interm an, the te s t is not relevance. The 3 te s t is reasonably calculated to lead to the 4 discovery of relevant evidence. 5 MR. W IN TER M AN : That's correct 6 and -- 7 MR. STUEM KE: And -- 8 MR. W IN TE R M A N : I'm sorry, Counsel, 9 I didn't m ean to interrupt you. 10 MR. ST U E M K E : A n d I th in k th is is 11 reasonably calculated, and we object to it not 12 being produced. 13 MR. W IN T E R M A N : I th in k -- I'm not 14 stopping you from inquiring about the docum ent 15 retention policy, and I th in k once you inquire 16 you'll find out th a t it's not relevant, nor is it 17 reasonably calculated to lead to the discovery of 18 adm issible evidence and accordingly it w as not 19 produced. 20 MR. STUEMKE: Okay. 21 22 BY MR. STUEMKE: 23 Q. You indicated, Mr. C am eron, th a t 24 earlier versions of the docum ent retention policy 25 have been destroyed, correct? HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 41 1 A. They're no longer available, 2 that's correct. 3 Q. Okay. 4 And were those destroyed pursuant 5 to the current docum ent retention policy? 6 A. W ell, they w ere destroyed pursuant 7 to the fa ct th a t they w ere replaced. T hey w ere 8 no longer current. So the docum ent retention 9 p olicy is to destro y item s th a t you p u t into 10 storage. 11 The records retention policies 12 supersede one another and, therefore, they are 13 discarded once a new one takes effect. 14 Q. Okay. 15 And you see area of inquiry N um ber 16 3 relating to V olksw agen brand vehicles sold by 17 V o lksw a g e n G roup o f A m e ric a sin ce 1950 and it 18 asks about num erous specific item s relating to 19 those vehicles, correct? 20 A. I'm sorry, you're ta lkin g about 21 w ritings requested? 22 Q. A rea of inquiry -- 23 A. N um ber 3 talks about forklifts on 24 my copy. 25 Q. Okay. 42 1 I'm talking about area o f inquiry 2 N um ber 3, sir. 3 A. Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you were 4 talking about the writings requested. 5 Q. Well, you see how Num ber 2 on 6 writings requested refers back to the areas of 7 inquiry, sir? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. I'm looking at area o f inquiry 10 N um ber 3. 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. And you would agree that 13 Volkswagen G roup o f Am erica, Inc. has docum ents 14 relating to the inform ation requested in area o f 15 inquiry N um ber 3, correct? 16 MR. W IN T E R M A N : W ell, first o f all, 17 the question is -- 18 MR. STU EM KE : Let's ju s t have him 19 answ er the question. You can m ake a legal 20 objection, but let's just have him answer the 21 question. 22 MR. W INTERM AN: Well, you 23 interrupted me before you'd give me an opportunity 24 to com plete my legal question. 25 I'm going to give you the courtesy 43 1 o f letting you finish what you have to say and 2 likewise I'd appreciate if you'd do the same 3 thing. 4 The problem that I have with your 5 question is it's vague, a m biguous and uncertain. 6 There are m ultitudes o f topics set forth in 7 inquiry N um ber 3. 8 In addition, the inquiry is 9 overbroad as to time. The vehicles that you're 10 asking for in this particular inquiry are not 11 relevant to this particular lawsuit because 12 Mr. Bom an did not w o rk on any o f the -- but fo r a 13 handful o f vehicles that he's identified in his 14 deposition and accordingly this request was way 15 overbroad. 16 17 BY MR. STUEMKE: 18 Q. You can answ er the question, sir. 19 A. W e m ay have som e inform ation in 20 reference to som e o f them, but we don't have any 21 one docum ent that w ould answ er all o f these 22 questions. 23 Q. Right. And you understand we're 24 not looking just for one document. W e're asking 25 for a production of many documents so that we can 44 1 review those and determ ine w hat's relevant. 2 You understand that, correct? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Okay. 5 And nevertheless you've not 6 brought any documents, correct? 7 A. T hat's correct. 8 Q. Even w ith respect to those 9 v e h ic le s w h ich in y o u r u n d e rs ta n d in g M r. B o m a n 10 did identify having w orked with, correct? 11 A. T hat's correct. W e brought no 12 do cu m e n ts. 13 Q. Okay. But those d ocum ents exist, 14 correct? 15 MR. W IN TER M AN : That's vague and 16 am biguous. 17 A. There may be som e docum ents 18 concerning som e of the vehicles involved, yes. 19 Q. Okay. 20 You say there may be some. Are 21 there any? 22 A. W ell, th a t w ould depend on which 23 qu e stion yo u 're ta lkin g about, sir. 24 Q. Okay. 25 A. You have about ten different areas HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 45 1 o f inquiry with sidelines going off of each one. 2 So there m ay be some documents. It would depend 3 on w hat we're looking for and w hat the answ er is 4 and what we would find if we looked. 5 Q. But the sim ple answ er is you don't 6 know what docum ents exist because you haven't 7 looked for any, correct? 8 A. That -- 9 MR. W INTERM AN: That's -- excuse 10 me. 11 That's vague, am biguous and 12 uncertain and unintelligible and assumes facts not 13 in evidence. 14 The fact o f the m atter is this 15 request is w ay overbroad. It wasn't tailored for 16 this particular case. It's clearly done because 17 you guys had ad seriatim litigation and you're 18 trying to get inform ation out o f this suit for 19 other suits. W e're going to lim it it to this 20 suit. W e're going to lim it it to w hat's relevant 21 to Mr. Bom an. 22 MR. S TU EM KE : W e -- 23 MR. W INTERMAN: So the witness was, 24 the w itness w as told not to bring anything to this 25 deposition. 46 1 MR. STUEMKE: Okay. 2 3 BY MR. STUEMKE: 4 Q. Mr. C am eron, you d id n 't even lo o k 5 fo r any d o cum ents responsive to this notice, did 6 you? 7 A. In general, no. 8 Q. Specifically did you look fo r any 9 docum ents? 10 A. W ell, docum ents to refresh my 11 recollection w h ich is part of th e th in g th a t w e 12 have here. T he inform ation on b rakes and 13 clutches, I already know w hat exists on that 14 particular area. 15 Q. Okay. 16 B u t in resp o n se to th is notice 17 w hich you review ed, you did not look fo r any 18 docum ents, correct? 19 A. No, after discussion w ith counsel 20 I did not go any further. 21 Q. Okay. 22 Now, turning to area o f inquiry 23 N um ber 4, th is request or this is identified as 24 facts, w itnesses and docum ents concerning 25 D efendant sponsorship of brake and/or clutch 47 1 seminars, program and/or classes as described by 2 P laintiff in his deposition at Page 1287, Line 16 3 through 1289, Line 12. 4 A. (Reviews.) 5 Q. Do you see that? 6 A. Yes, I see it. 7 Q. And you've not brought any 8 docum ents relating to any such seminars, programs 9 or class, have you? 10 MR. W INTERMAN: Assum es facts not 11 in evidence. 12 Lacks foundation. 13 A. There w as nothing to bring, sir. 14 Q. How do you know that there was 15 nothing to bring? 16 A. Because we don't sponsor this type 17 o f sem inar, so we would have nothing to bring. 18 Q. W hat type, what type of seminar do 19 you m ean? 20 A. I'm sorry? 21 Q. W hat type o f sem inar do you m ean? 22 You say you don't sponsor that type o f sem inar. 23 I just want to be sure it's clear what you're 24 referring to. 25 A. Well, you referred to a particular 48 1 sem inar in a section o f the Plaintiffs' 2 deposition. W e've reviewed that sections, those 3 sections of the deposition and we do not have 4 anything in response to that. W e do not do those 5 types of seminars that he was talking about. 6 Q. Never did? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Volkswagen never sponsored 9 sem inars to train people on working with their 10 products? 11 MR. W IN T E R M A N : The question is 12 vague and am biguous, uncertain and unintelligible. 13 A. W e provide training to Volkswagen 14 m echanics who are employed by authorized 15 V olksw agen dealers through our authorized 16 training centers. T hat's w hat we provide. It's 17 m y understanding from reading the deposition that 18 the P laintiff w as not a m echanic at an authorized 19 V olksw agen dealer, w as not attending any 20 authorized Volkswagen training sessions which are 21 not called seminars, but are called training 22 sessions, hands-on training sessions and, 23 therefore, the sem inars he's referring to must 24 have been for some other manufacturers, but not 25 for Volksw agen. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 49 1 Q. Okay. 2 Now, these sem inars th a t you're 3 referring to that Volkswagen did sponsor, you say 4 those are only fo r em ployees of authorized 5 service centers or dealers? 6 MR. W IN TERM AN: M isstates, 7 m ischaracterizes evidence. 8 He said they were not sem inars. 9 Q. T hese hands-on training course, is 10 that the phrase you used? 11 A. W e have service training that we 12 provide through our authorized training centers. 13 That's w hat we do to em ployees o f authorized 14 Volkswagen dealers. They're not sem inars. 15 They're actually training sessions that go on for 16 between one and five days. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A n d w h a t in y o u r m ind is a 19 distinction between that and a seminar? 20 A. G enerally a sem inar is som ething 21 sponsored by som ebody to bring across some 22 info rm a tio n and p o ssib ly in th e end sell a 23 product or som ething. W e're conducting training 24 sessions for em ployees of authorized Volkswagen 25 dealers. 50 1 Q. Okay. 2 So only employees o f Volkswagen 3 dealers were ever allowed at these training 4 seminars, training workshops or whatever? 5 A. Okay, they're training -- it's 6 authorized -- it's training -- yes, it's not a 7 sem inar, but it's, it's authorized training and 8 only members of authorized Volkswagen dealers are 9 allowed at those things or company employees are 10 obviously allowed there too. 11 Q. Okay. 12 W hat kind o f security is there to 13 m ake sure that there is nobody else that goes 14 there? 15 MR. W IN TER M AN : The question is 16 vague, am biguous, uncertain and unintelligible. 17 A. Well -- 18 MR. WINTERMAN: And overbroad. 19 THE W ITNESS: Excuse me. 20 A. The field people within service 21 are responsible for determ ining that the service 22 personnel that are working on Volksw agen vehicles 23 at authorized Volksw agen dealers are properly 24 trained, and that the dealership has sufficient 25 num bers o f m echanics trained in its particular 51 1 areas, and particularly when reference to a new 2 product com es out and there is new system s on it, 3 the dealership has to send its m echanics or a 4 certain num ber o f them to be trained on them. 5 That's the responsibility of the area 6 representative. 7 And he m akes sure when he goes to 8 the dealership that he checks the training 9 records o f all o f the em ployees o f the dealership 10 w ithin the service departm ent to see w hat their 11 training records are and rem inds the dealer if 12 he's short in any particular area and will 13 schedule at that tim e the attendance of that 14 employee to come to the seminar. 15 The dealer pays for the employee's 16 tim e at the sem inar and we provide the training 17 and other things necessary for him to be at the 18 sem inar and we track those and they would know 19 w hich m echanics had which training at which 20 particular time. 21 Q. Okay. W e'll come back to that. 22 Sir, does V o lksw agen G roup of 23 Am erica have any docum ents responsive to area of 24 inquiry Number 5? 25 A. No. 52 1 Q. D oes V o lksw a g e n have any d o cu m e n ts 2 responsive to area o f inquiry Num ber 6? 3 A. No. 4 MR. W INTERM AN: Counsel, so that I 5 don't have to keep objecting, I'm going to assum e, 6 and please co rre ct me if I'm w rong me if I'm 7 wrong, that when you refer to Volksw agen you're 8 m eaning to refer to Volkswagen Group o f Am erica, 9 Inc. throughout this deposition? 10 MR. STUEMKE: Yeah. 11 12 BY MR. STUEMKE: 13 Q. Let's, let's ta lk a b o ut th a t ju st 14 fo r a second on the record so that we are clear. 15 V o lksw a g e n G roup o f A m erica, Inc. 16 is the current entity by w hom you're employed, 17 correct, Mr. C am eron? 18 A. That's correct, yes. 19 Q. A nd p rior to th a t corporate nam e 20 it had a t least one o th e r corporate nam e in its 21 history, correct? 22 A. Yeah, it w as Volkswagen of 23 Am erica -- 24 Q. O kay. 25 A. -- Inc. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 53 1 Q. A nd th ro u g h o u t th is deposition I 2 suspect that I will lapse into sim ply referring 3 to that entity as Volkswagen. So for purposes of 4 today's deposition if I ju st say Volkswagen, can 5 we understand that to mean Volkswagen Group of 6 Am erica, Inc.? 7 A. Yes, that's w hat I assum ed that 8 you were talking about when you mentioned 9 Volkswagen. 10 Q. Correct. 11 A. No other Volkswagen entity other 12 than Volksw agen o f Am erica, Inc. or Volkswagen 13 G roup o f Am erica, Inc. w ho I'm here to represent. 14 Q. Right. 15 A nd there is, o f course, 16 Volkswagen AG, correct? 17 A. There is a Volkswagen AG, yes. 18 Q. A nd th a t is the G erm an auto 19 m an u fa ctu re r th a t w a s started in the 20 nineteen-thirties, correct? 21 A. That's the parent com pany of a 22 n u m b e r o f au tom obile fran ch ise s in G erm any, yes. 23 Q. Okay. 24 And for purposes of today's 25 deposition I may at tim es refer to Volkswagen AG 54 1 as Volkswagen of Germany. 2 W ill you understand me to be 3 referring to Volkswagen AG if I use that 4 term inology, sir? 5 A. If you say Volkswagen o f Germany, 6 we will assum e you're talking about the com pany 7 in G erm any that ow ns various autom obile 8 companies, yes. 9 Q. V ery good, sir. 10 And, sir, does Volksw agen have 11 docum ents responsive to area o f inquiry Number 7? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Does Volkswagen have documents 14 responsive to area o f inquiry Number 8? 15 A. O ther than w h a t's in som e o f the 16 after m arket w orkshop m anuals, no. 17 Q. Does Volkswagen have items 18 responsive, excuse me, docum ents responsive to 19 area o f inquiry N um ber 12? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Other than the docum ents which 22 V olksw agen has produced in this case, does 23 Volkswagen have other docum ents relating to area 24 o f inquiry Num ber 13? 25 A. No. 55 1 Q. Certainly Volksw agen has docum ents 2 relating to its financial condition, correct? 3 A. There may be some documents. I 4 assume the tax authorities know what they are. 5 Q. Does Volkswagen have any docum ents 6 responsive to area o f inquiry Number 15? 7 A. No. 8 Q. No? 9 A. No. 10 Q. And for the record, area of 11 inquiry Num ber 15 is facts, witnesses and 12 docum ents regarding workers' com pensation claims, 13 if any, made against Defendant for injuries 14 and/or death arising out o f exposure to asbestos 15 at Defendant's m anufacturing and/or authorized 16 dealer repair facilities, correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. All right. All right. 19 Could you state your name for the 20 record, please. 21 A. Sure. It's Robert P. Cam eron, Jr. 22 Q. And, Mr. Cam eron, what is your 23 current or who is your current employer? 24 A. Volkswagen Group o f America, 25 Incorporated. 56 1 Q. A nd w h a t is your current job 2 title? 3 A. I'm the general m anager product 4 liaison. 5 Q. And can you describe -- 6 S trike that. 7 W hen were you first em ployed by 8 Volkswagen, sir? 9 A. A gain, by Volksw agen you mean 10 Volksw agen of Am erica? 11 Q. Yes. 12 A. May of 1965. 13 Q. Okay. 14 And can you tell the ju ry the 15 d iffe re n t jo b title s th a t yo u 've h ad in yo u r 16 forty-four years of em ploym ent with Volksw agen? 17 A. Sure. I joined the com pany as a 18 te ch n ica l a n a lyst in th e c u s to m e r se rvice 19 relatio n o r te ch n ica l c o rre sp o n d in th e c u s to m e r 20 service relations departm ent. Becam e a 21 te ch n ica l -- th a t w a s in '65. B e ca m e a te ch n ica l 22 a n a lyst I b e lie ve it w a s in th e 1968 area. 23 Becam e a supervisor of product liaison about 24 1970, '71. I becam e the product liaison m anager 25 in '72, '73, so m e w h e re a ro u n d there. Held th a t HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 57 1 position until I becam e th e m a n a g e r product 2 liaison w hich th e group w a s elevated to a 3 d e p a rtm e n t le v e l p o s itio n s o m e tim e in th e 4 e ig h tie s I b elieve it w a s . A n d th e n th e g eneral 5 m an ager's title w a s a b o u t seven ye a rs a go. 6 Q. O kay. A n d it's tru e th a t -- 7 W ell, strike that. 8 H o w old a m an are you? 9 A. I'm sixty-six. 10 Q. Do you intend to retire soon? 11 A. I have no retire m en t plans at the 12 p re se n t tim e. 13 Q. Do you have a pension program 14 th a t's been funded by V o lksw agen? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. I assu m e yo u're fu lly ve ste d after 17 forty-four years? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. I w ould hope so. 20 N o w , sir, y o u 'v e b e e n in 21 V o lk s w a g e n 's p ro d u c t lia is o n g ro u p s in c e it 22 s o u n d s like 1970 o r 1971, is th a t right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. 25 A n d th a t p ro d u c t lia is o n g ro u p is 58 1 seventy-five -- seventy-five percent o f its work 2 is devoted to litigation support, correct? 3 A. The total group's w ork is 4 probably, probably closer to sixty percent when 5 you include the various types o f litigation and 6 other items that we do. 7 Q. Now -- 8 A. And just to qualify what I said, 9 we're talking today, we're using today's numbers, 10 correct? 11 Q. W ell, sure. O ver tim e has it been 12 different? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay. 15 H ow has it been different over 16 tim e? 17 A. Well, the group was much sm aller 18 w ay back in the seventies, and then it evolved 19 that tim e fram e in its w o rk and assignm ents has 20 varied over the years. 21 Q. Okay. 22 Now, just to give the jury some 23 context o f who your em ployer is Volkswagen Group 24 o f A m erica, that is a com pany that w as founded in 25 A m erica in 1955, correct? 59 1 A. Y es, it w a s in c o rp o ra te d in N ew 2 J e rs e y in 1955. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A nd it is a w holly-ow ned 5 subsidiary of Volksw agen of G erm any, correct? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. Okay. 8 And you under -- 9 A. A t the present tim e w e're talking 10 about? 11 Q. Sure. 12 A. Okay. 13 Q. And when it w as founded th a t w as 14 also true, correct? 15 A. It w as true then, yes. There were 16 s o m e c h a n g e s in b e tw e en , b u t th a t -- b u t it w a s 17 then and it is at the cu rre n t tim e. 18 Q. Okay. 19 And Volksw agen of G erm any you 20 u n d e rs ta n d w a s fo u n d e d in 1937, co rre c t? 21 A. I don't know exactly w hen 22 V o lk s w a g e n o f G e rm a n y, w h a te v e r th a t e n tity is, 23 w as founded. 24 Q. Okay. 25 In your forty-four years w ith 60 1 Volkswagen o f America you've never learned when 2 Volkswagen of Germany was started? 3 A . O h, it was started in the 4 thirties, no question about that. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. But you said it was founded in 7 1937. I don't know if that's correct. I don't 8 know what founding means in Germany. 9 Q. Okay. 10 I'm not going to translate it for 11 you. I don't think I'm qualified. 12 Now, Volkswagen, the term, means 13 car for the people, is that right? 14 A. Well, that's one of the ways 15 people interpret it. It's peoples' car or 16 something o f that nature. 17 Q. Right. And the original 18 Volkswagen car was designed by Ferdinand Porsche, 19 correct? 20 A. He's generally attributed to be 21 the original designer o f the car, yes. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. The original Volkswagen. 24 Q. And that car that he designed 25 became what was properly known as the Beetle when HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 61 1 it w a s sold in the United States, correct? 2 A. Som ething sim ilar to his design 3 w as sold here -- 4 Q. Sure. 5 A. -- in the United States, yes. 6 Q. It w a s an evolution from the 7 original design? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. A n d V o lksw a g e n o f A m erica is an 10 im porter and m arketer of vehicles m anufactured by 11 Volkswagen of Germany, correct? 12 A. It's the sole authorized im porter 13 into the United States fo r Volksw agen and a 14 num ber of other autom obile cars, parts and 15 accessories. 16 Q. Okay. 17 And obviously it sells Volkswagens 18 in the United States, correct? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. A lso A u d is and certain o ther 21 brands, correct? 22 A. Yes, there are a num ber of other 23 b ra n d s th a t it, th a t it im ports and d istributes 24 to dealerships. 25 Q. Okay. 62 1 Volksw agen also sells replacem ent 2 parts fo r the veh icle s th a t it sells, correct? 3 A . That's correct. 4 Q. A n d it has sin ce it w a s fo u nd e d in 5 1955, correct? 6 A. That's correct. It sells 7 authorized parts, yes. 8 Q. Yes. 9 And you'd agree th a t within ten 10 years o f its founding, Volksw agen o f Am erica had 11 more than nine hundred dealers across the United 12 States, correct? 13 A. I don't recall the exact num ber 14 th a t th e y had in 1965 w hen I jo in e d the com pany. 15 I don't have any -- off the top of my head I ju st 16 don't recall. I've never gone back and checked 17 w h a t the total n u m b e r is. 18 Q. Sure. 19 A. Six hundred and som ething rings a 20 bell w ith me, but it m ay be nine hundred. If 21 you've got som e docum ents th a t w ould reflect 22 that, then that's fine. 23 Q. Okay. 24 MR. STUEM KE: Let's m ark this as 3 25 (indicating). 63 1 COURT REPORTER: (Complies.) 2 (Whereupon, one-page document 3 entitled Volkswagen Group o f America, not bearing 4 a Bates stam p, is received and m arked as 5 Plaintiffs' Exhibit 3 for Identification.) 6 C O U R T REP O R TE R : N um ber 3. 7 8 BY MR. STUEMKE: 9 Q. You can show that to your lawyer 10 first. 11 A. (Complies.) 12 MR. W INTERMAN: Thank you. 13 MR. STUEMKE: Thanks. 14 15 BY MR. STUEMKE: 16 Q. Sir, you've been handed Exhibit 3. 17 I'll represent to you that I printed that o ff o f 18 the V olksw agen website and the site address is 19 listed at the top o f the page. 20 A. (Reviews.) 21 Q. Do you see that? 22 A. Yes, I see it. 23 Q. Okay. 24 And you see that this is a b rief 25 statem ent o f the legacy o f Volkswagen o f America, 64 1 correct? 2 A. T hat's w hat it says. 3 Q. Okay. 4 And this docum ent indicates that 5 within ten years o f Volkswagen o f Am erica being 6 founded, that is by 1965, the com pany had more 7 than nine hundred dealers across the United 8 States, correct? 9 A. T hat's w hat it says, yes. 10 Q. And you have no reason to dispute 11 that, correct? 12 A. No, if it's a com pany publication 13 I would assume it's accurate. 14 Q. And just to back up a second, 15 you'd agree that before Volkswagen o f Am erica was 16 started in 1955, V olksw agen cars were already 17 being imported into the United States under other 18 gray market type means, correct? 19 A. Yes, the cars were coming here 20 from other m eans other than through authorized 21 channels, yes. 22 Q. Okay. 23 Do you know when it w as that the 24 first V olksw agen w as sold in the United States? 25 A. It's generally talked about being HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 65 1 1949,1950, the first one was imported. I don't 2 know w hether that was specifically to be sold to 3 som ebody, b u t o ve r the years I've seen 4 inform ation, I've even seen som e old pictures a 5 long tim e ago o f a Beetle being unloaded off a 6 ship, a picture o f a couple o f gentlem en watching 7 it being done saying this is the first car 8 imported, but when that car w as sold, I don't 9 know. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A nd you'd agree th a t V W s in the 12 nineteen-fifties, nineteen-sixties, 13 nineteen-seventies tim e fram e were especially 14 p o p ular in C alifornia? 15 A. California w as certainly one of 16 the m ajor markets, yes. 17 Q. Yes. Okay. 18 And the prim ary car sold by 19 V o lksw a g e n in the United S tates up until the 20 nineteen-seventies w as what is com m only referred 21 to as the Beetle, correct? 22 A. That w as the m ost popular model, 23 yes. 24 Q. Okay. 25 A nd it's true th a t in 1972 the 66 1 Beetle becam e the m ost popular car in history, 2 correct? 3 A. That -- 4 MR. W IN TER M AN : The question is 5 vague and ambiguous. 6 A. I don't recall quite frankly. It 7 received a number o f awards over the years. 8 Again, if you have something that reflects that 9 from the company, then I wouldn't disagree with 10 it. 11 MR. STUEM KE: Let's mark this as 12 Exhibit 4. 13 COURT REPORTER: (Complies.) 14 (W hereupon, multi-page document 15 entitled Volksw agen M akes A utom otive History, not 16 bearing Bates stamps, is received and marked as 17 Plaintiffs' Exhibit 4 for Identification.) 18 CO URT REPO RTER: Num ber 4. 19 THE W ITNESS: Do I need to show it 20 to counsel? 21 MR. WINTERMAN: Yes. Thanks. 22 MR. STUEMKE: Craig, I only intend 23 to ask him about one paragraph on the second page 24 under the heading 1960 to 1980. 25 MR. WINTERMAN: Okay. 67 1 Let me read the thing if you don't 2 mind. 3 Thank you. 4 I'm sorry, which, which part did 5 you say, second page? 6 MR. STUEM KE: The first paragraph 7 under 1960 to 1980. 8 MR. W IN TER M AN : Can you lay a 9 fou nd a tio n as to w h a t this is, E xh ib it 4? 10 11 BY MR. STUEMKE: 12 Q. W ell, sir, I'll rep re se n t to you 13 that I printed Exhibit 4 off of the Internet, off 14 o f Volkswagen.com . The entire -- actually not 15 the entire address o f this particular page is 16 available online because it was too long, but you 17 see that at the top of the page that this came 18 from Volkswagen.com ? 19 A. Yes, I see that. 20 Q. Okay. 21 And if you turn to the second page 22 o f the exhibit, sir, it is stated that on 23 February 17th, 1972 Volkswagen breaks the world 24 c a r production record with fifteen million seven 25 thousand thirty-four units assem bled, the Beetle 68 1 surpasses the legendary m ark achieved by the Ford 2 Motor Company's Model T, popularly known as the 3 Tin Lizzy between 1908 and 1927. 4 A. (Reviews.) 5 Q. Do you see that? 6 A. Yes, I see that. 7 Q. And you certainly don't have any 8 reason to dispute that, do you? 9 A. No, but you're talking about the 10 United States. The fifteen million is the 11 worldw ide -- 12 Q. Sure. 13 A. -- production, production numbers 14 for the com pany fo r the Beetle throughout the 15 w hole world, not just the United States. 16 Q. Sure. 17 And my point was not to suggest 18 that V olksw agen of A m erica had sold that m any 19 B eetles here. S im ply that it w as a very popular 20 car, correct? 21 A. Yes, it was a ve ry popular car. 22 Q. And you'd agree with respect to 23 V olksw agens a ctually sold in Am erica, there were 24 at least several m illion that were sold in the 25 nineteen-sixties, correct? HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 69 1 A. I believe yes, I believe the total 2 if you added it altogether through the sixties 3 into the seventies w as several m illion. 4 Q. Okay. 5 B ut in the nineteen-sixties itself 6 you'd agree that it w as several m illion just 7 within that decade, correct? 8 A. Yes, depending on what you mean by 9 several million. W hat is several million? Two 10 m illion? Five m illion? Seven m illion? W hat is 11 several m illion? 12 Q. W ell, can you, can you provide the 13 jury a more exact number other than several 14 million o f how many million Volksw agens were sold 15 in the nine tee n -sixtie s in A m erica? 16 A. N ot sitting here today, no, I 17 can't. 18 Q. Okay. 19 And you'd also agree that there 20 w ere several m illion V o lksw a g e n s sold in A m erica 21 in the nineteen-seventies, correct? 22 A. Nineteen-seventies there probably 23 w ere. It started to slo w up in the, I'm trying 24 to think, 1969, '70. The m arket slowed up and we 25 had a fuel crisis in the early se ve n ties and 70 1 s a le s d ro p p e d o ff d ra s tic a lly in th a t p a rtic u la r 2 area, b ut again, w ith o u t looking at, at, you 3 know , figures that m ay be out there som eplace, I 4 w ould have to say, yeah, m aybe a couple m illion 5 m o re in th e s e v e n tie s . 6 Q . Okay. 7 S o is it a couple m illio n ? Is it 8 a m axim um of tw o? I m ean I'm ju s t trying to 9 figure out w hat w e're talking about here. 10 A . S itting here today I can't give 11 you exact sales figures. 12 Q . Okay. 13 A . I d o n 't w a n t to be in a c c u ra te in 14 w h a t I say to the jury. It w a s certa in ly several 15 m illion in th e s ix tie s a nd se v e ra l m illio n m ore 16 through the seventies. 17 Q. Very good. 18 You can se t th a t aside, sir. I 19 don't have any further questions about the 20 docum ent. 21 A. (C om plies.) 22 Q. Okay. 23 A nd we talked about this a bit 24 earlier, but V olksw agen o f A m erica's contract 25 w ith Volksw agen of G erm any requires it to train 71 1 se rvice people in special V o lksw a g e n courses, 2 correct? 3 A . I don't know that the contract 4 lays that out, b u t it requires that Volksw agen of 5 Am erica provide service fo r the products th a t it 6 is se llin g in the m a rk e t w h ich w o u ld include 7 tra in in g fo r th e m fo r the m e c h a n ic s a t its 8 dealerships, sure. 9 Q. Okay. 10 And Volkswagen does put on 11 training schools for various system s of 12 Volkswagen vehicles, correct? 13 O r strike that. 14 Let me reword the question. 15 Volksw agen does put on training 16 schools that relate specifically to various 17 system s o f Volksw agen vehicles, correct? 18 A. Yes, they have, they have training 19 for certain com ponents, and then they have 20 overall training for certain I should say 21 m aintenances and repairs th a t should be done to 22 the cars. 23 Q. Right. 24 A. And they have very specified 25 training for certain new system s as they come out 72 1 on the market. 2 Q. Okay. 3 And they have training schools 4 that are dedicated to engines, transmissions, 5 brakes, body repair, carburation, fuel systems, 6 things of that nature, correct? 7 A. Yes, they do. 8 Q. Okay. 9 And these schools can take 10 anywhere from tw o days to two w eeks depending on 11 the subject, correct? 12 A. The schools could take anywhere 13 from one day to about five days. I don't off the 14 top o f my head recall any schools that went on 15 for two w eeks unless you were stringing a whole 16 bunch o f schools together. 17 Q. Okay. 18 And, sir, we didn't discuss this 19 before, but you've given depositions on behalf of 20 Volksw agen many, m any tim es before, before today, 21 correct? 22 A. I've given many depositions over 23 the years, yes. 24 Q. Okay. 25 And I assume and I know your HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 73 1 counsel w ould have objected otherw ise, but I 2 assum e I can dispense with giving you the usual 3 instructions about w h a t a deposition is and the 4 fa ct th a t you're under oath and things of that 5 nature, correct? 6 A. I believe the basics I understand 7 unless you have som e special rules and 8 re g u la tio n s th a t yo u o p e ra te u n d e r in C a lifo rn ia . 9 Q. But you've alw ays understood that 10 w hen giving deposition te stim o n y you're under 11 oath to tell the truth, correct? 12 A. Absolutely. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. No question about that. 15 Q. A nd I'm not suggesting otherw ise. 16 I'm ju s t la yin g th e fo u n d a tio n , sir. 17 Do you reca ll g ivin g te s tim o n y in 18 a ca se e n title d P rio r in 2 0 0 1 ? 19 A. I believe that's a C alifornia 20 case. 21 Q. Yes, sir. 22 A. I don't -- I know I testified at a 23 trial. I don't know if I gave deposition 24 te s tim o n y o r n o t in th a t case. 25 Q. Okay. 74 1 W ell, let m e a sk you how m any 2 tim es have you testified at trial fo r Volksw agen 3 in a c a se relatin g to a s b e s to s e x p o su re ? 4 A. To asbestos exposure? 5 Q . Yes, sir. 6 A. A t trial? 7 Q. Y es, sir. 8 A. Ju st tw ice. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A n d o n e o f th o s e I ta k e it w a s th e 11 P rio r case? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. O kay. And w hat w as the other 14 case? 15 A. I b e lie ve it w a s R eyes, R -e -y-e -s. 16 Q. O kay. A nd w here w as th a t trial 17 h e ld ? 18 A. San F ra ncisco I believe. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A nd do you recall the nam e o f the 21 P laintiff's law yer th a t cross-e xa m ine d you? 22 A. No, I don't. 23 Q. O kay. D idn't m ake m uch of an 24 im pression? 25 A. I'm sorry? 75 1 Q. I'll w ithdraw that. 2 MR. W INTERMAN: I want that on the 3 record. I'm sending it to him. Counsel, w henever 4 you find an appropriate spot to -- 5 MR. STUEMKE: Yeah, we've been 6 going an hour. Let's take a break. 7 MR. W INTERMAN: Thank you. 8 THE VIDEO G RAPHER: W e are going off 9 the record. 10 The tim e is approxim ately 11:02. 11 This is the end of Videotape Number 12 1 in the deposition o f Robert Cam eron. 13 (W hereupon, a short recess is 14 taken.) 15 TH E V ID E O G R A P H E R : Stand by, 16 please. 17 We are now back on the record. 18 19 a.m. The tim e is approxim ately 11:14 20 This is the beginning of Videotape 21 N um ber 2 in the deposition o f Mr. Robert Cam eron, 22 Jr. 23 You may now proceed. 24 25 BY MR. STUEMKE: 76 1 Q. Before the break, Mr. Cam eron, we 2 were talking about the training schools that 3 Volkswagen has put on for m echanics. 4 It's my understanding from som e of 5 your earlier testim ony that you believe only 6 Volkswagen service or dealer em ployees were 7 perm itted to attend those classes, is th a t right? 8 A. Volkswagen em ployees or dealer 9 employees, yes. 10 Q. W hy do you believe that? 11 A. W ell, the training schools were 12 for the m echanics em ployed by authorized 13 Volkswagen dealers. T hat w as the whole concept 14 that they were set up for. I attended a num ber 15 o f them when I first joined the com pany and over 16 the years and that's who w as at the training 17 sessions. 18 Q. How m any different training 19 sch o o ls in te rm s o f w h e re th e y w ere located w ere 20 there? 21 A. W ell, it d e p e n d s on w h a t p o in t in 22 tim e. There w as -- way back at the beginning 23 each distributor of which there were fourteen 24 independent distributors around the United 25 States, each distributor had a training facility. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 77 1 Right now there are less training facilities than 2 fourteen but I don't know w hat the exact num ber 3 is today. 4 Q. Okay. 5 And do you know if any o f those 6 train in g fa cilitie s w ere e v e r located in 7 California? 8 A. Yes, they were. 9 Q. How many? 10 A. W ell, th e re w o u ld have been tw o in 11 C a lifo rn ia . 12 Q. W here were they? 13 A. W ell, back a t the beginning it 14 w o u ld have been one in th e L o s A n g e le s area and 15 one in th e S a n F ra n cisco area w here w e had tw o 16 separate distributors covering parts of 17 California at th a t time. 18 Q. Okay. 19 And w hat were the nam es o f those 20 distributors? 21 A. W ell, the nam es changed. The 22 Los Angeles distributor was Volkswagen Pacific or 23 Volksw agen o f C ulver City or som ething like that, 24 but it w as Volkswagen Pacific the last tim e I 25 rem em ber and the distributor for San Francisco 78 1 w as originally a com pany called Reynold C. 2 Johnson. 3 Q. Okay. 4 And backing up for a second, where 5 do you office? 6 A. I'm sorry? 7 Q. W here do you office? 8 A. W here do I -- where is my office? 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. M y office is in N ew Jersey. 11 Q. Okay. 12 H ave you always worked in New 13 Jersey when you've been em ployed by V olksw agen? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. 16 Did you attend the, any training 17 sessions at the Los A ngeles or S an F rancisco 18 training facilities? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Okay. 21 Do you know from your own personal 22 know ledge w hether those distributors th a t ran 23 those training facilities lim ited the people that 24 could attend the training? 25 MR. W INTERM AN: Don't answer the 79 1 question. 2 (Direction not to answ er the 3 question.) 4 MR. W IN TER M AN : Counsel, his own 5 personal knowledge is not w hat he's here to 6 testify to. He's here to testify as to the person 7 m ost knowledgeable, the person m ost qualified on 8 behalf of the company. 9 MR. STUEMKE: Sure. 10 I'm ju s t testing the basis fo r his 11 belief. 12 MR. W INTERM AN: W ell -- 13 14 BY MR. STUEMKE: 15 Q. You can answer. 16 MR. W INTERM AN: -- he can answer as 17 to w h a t he know s the co m p a n y inform ation is. 18 A. W ell, I know the training 19 facilities were required to be held by the 20 regional distributors, and Volkswagen of Am erica 21 had trainers who would train the trainers 22 basically. 23 Q. Uh-huh. 24 A. Volkswagen of Am erica's people 25 would go there and train the trainers at the 80 1 regional or at the independent distributors' 2 offices, and then over the years those offices 3 and distributorships were purchased back from 4 the, from the owners or the deceased owners' 5 fam ilies and were turned into Volksw agen of 6 Am erica offices and continued to operate as 7 distributors for a number o f years. 8 Q. Okay. 9 Let's break that down a little bit 10 because you said a lot and I want to m ake sure 11 that the ju ry is, is clear on this. 12 W e talked earlier about how by 13 1965 there are more than nine hundred Volkswagen 14 dealerships in the United States. 15 Do you recall that? 16 A. Yes, that's what it said on the 17 website. 18 Q. And you said that there were 19 fourteen independent distributors w ithin the 20 United States for Volksw agen products, is that 21 correct? 22 A. At a certain given time, yes. 23 Q. Okay. 24 And at what -- 25 A. That was the maximum there were. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 81 1 Q. And when was that maximum 2 achieved? 3 A. It would be in the early sixties. 4 Q. Okay. 5 And then over time -- as I 6 understand what you just testified to, over time 7 Volkswagen o f America purchased those independent 8 distributorships, correct? 9 A. Yes, the distributorships are 10 either rented back or they were purchased from 11 the families or the deceased owners o f the 12 distributorships and then were com bined, the 13 areas were combined over the years and the number 14 became less than fourteen. 15 Q. Okay. And are there any left 16 today? 17 A. Independent distributors? 18 Q. Yes, sir. 19 A. No. 20 Q. W hen was the last one repurchased 21 by Volkswagen o f America? 22 A. I believe it was about in the 23 early nineties maybe, '93, '94. 24 Q. Okay. 25 A. '92, somewhere around there. 82 1 Q. Now, th e se training fa cilitie s 2 you've talked about were actually run by the 3 independent distributors, correct? 4 A. Yes, that was part of their 5 contract with us, that they had to provide 6 training to the dealers who they had authorized 7 to sell Volkswagen parts and accessories within 8 their distributorship areas. 9 Q. A n d V o lksw a g e n knew th a t 10 consumers, people that actually purchased 11 Volkswagen vehicles would oftentim es do w ork on 12 them themselves, correct? 13 A. W ell, generally speaking you, you 14 knew that some custom ers would try to do some 15 repair w ork on their own, yes. 16 Q. Sure. 17 And certainly Volkswagen knew and 18 understood th a t not all cu sto m e rs w ould take 19 their vehicle for service to authorized 20 Volkswagen service centers, correct? 21 A. Once it w as out o f w arranty that 22 would be something that a custom er could do, yes. 23 Q. Right. 24 And if it w asn't a w arranty 25 repair, that's som ething they m ight even do 83 1 during the warranty period, correct? 2 A. It's possible that they could do 3 th a t if the repair shop or they had access to 4 parts and -- 5 Q. Sure. 6 A. -- special tools and procedures, 7 yes. 8 Q. Sure. 9 And did dealers that sent 10 m echanics to these training facilities run by 11 independent distributors have to pay fo r those 12 m echanics to get training? 13 A. They paid the m echanics for their 14 tim e a t the facility, but my recollection is they 15 did not pay fo r the course itself. The course 16 w as provided by the distributorship. 17 Q. Okay. 18 And do you know w hether either of 19 the two distributorships in California ever 20 offered Volkswagen training courses to m echanics 21 not employed by Volkswagen dealers? 22 A. I have never heard of any o f the 23 distributorships throughout the United States 24 that were working under our system providing 25 training to outside people for the regular 84 1 Volkswagen training courses. 2 Q. Okay. W ho have you asked about 3 that? 4 A. I h a v e n 't aske d a n yb o d y a b o u t it. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. It's ju st m y fam iliarization with 7 the com pany ove r the years. It's a very -- it 8 w as a very tightly held organization back at that 9 tim e, and they wanted to ensure th a t it w as -- 10 the m echanics were properly trained because the 11 Volksw agen w as different than other cars, 12 required special tools and special procedures. 13 And any dealerships were very proud of their 14 m echanics that they had attended the training and 15 they kept -- they got certificates for each 16 course, and they would very often have them on 17 the dealership w alls at the service counters so 18 that they could advertise that their people were 19 properly trained. 20 Q. Okay. 21 MR. S TU E M K E : I'm going to object 22 as non-responsive. 23 Q. Sir, the training schools run by 24 the independent distributors, those were not 25 supervised by the product liaison group of HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 85 1 Volkswagen, were they? 2 A. By the product liaison group, no. 3 Q. Okay. 4 And that's the group that you have 5 been in sin ce 1970 o r 1971? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. Okay. 8 And you haven't review ed any 9 docum ents th a t w ould tell you w hat policies the 10 Volkswagen training schools run by the two 11 C alifornia distributorships had relating to 12 w hether non-Volksw agen dealer em ployees were 13 perm itted to attend, have you? 14 A. I have not seen anything like 15 that, no. 16 Q. Okay. 17 And you yourself have attended the 18 Volkswagen training schools for m any of the 19 different car systems, correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay. 22 W hich training schools did you 23 attend? 24 A. You m ean the location of the 25 schools? 86 1 Q. Yes, sir. 2 A. T h e y w ere located in O rangeburg, 3 New Y ork at the local area distributor which w as 4 worldwide Volkswagen corporation. 5 Q. Okay. 6 And have you ever been to either 7 o f the train in g sch o o ls in C a lifo rn ia ? 8 A. I have been to th e one in 9 Los Angeles, yes. 10 Q. Okay. 11 And w as there training being 12 conducted at the tim e you were there? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay. 15 And did you -- how m any people 16 were there being trained? 17 A. The cla ssro o m I w a s in I believe 18 had about seven, seven people plus an instructor. 19 Q. Okay. 20 And did you ask each o f those 21 seven people by w hom they were em ployed? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Okay. 24 Did each of those seven people 25 w ear clothing or anything else indicating by whom 87 1 they were employed? 2 A. Some o f them had shirts on with 3 dealership names on them, but I quite frankly 4 didn't pay any attention to them. 5 Q. Right. 6 So you don't know whether each and 7 every person taking that course was, in fact, 8 employed by a VW dealer or if they may have been 9 employed by other people, correct? 10 A. That's correct. They could have 11 been company em ployees too. 12 Q. Okay. 13 And as far as you know they could 14 have been from outside the company, correct? 15 A. Well, I would doubt that they were 16 from outside the company because my understanding 17 even today is that outside, outside personnel are 18 not allowed to participate in the training 19 procedures that go on. 20 Q. Okay. 21 W hat document is there that 22 reflects that, sir? 23 A. I don't know o f any document that 24 reflects that. 25 Q. W ell, you say they're not allowed. 88 1 It sounds like you're referring to som e rule. Is 2 there a rule that only Volkswagen dealership 3 employees are permitted to attend training 4 schools? 5 A. W ell, again, first o f all, you 6 have to make an appointm ent to go to the school. 7 O ur engineers even today within my group attend 8 these schools on a regular basis, and we have to 9 call up and make an appointm ent to get our people 10 into the training facility and we get an 11 exception because we don't have a running -- 12 now adays th e y keep tra ck o f it all by com puter 13 who the m echanic is and what schools he's been to 14 and we get an exception for that because our 15 people are not regular mechanics. 16 So, therefore, they need an 17 exception and they don't get all o f the training 18 records put in th e ir system , but it's designed 19 for em ployees o f dealerships who need training. 20 They're referred to the training by the area 21 representative who is one o f our em ployees now 22 and he tracks who is com ing in and which 23 m echanics should or do need training and he 24 actually goes over that every month with the 25 dealership when he's at the dealership. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 89 1 Q. W hen were the independent 2 distributorships in California acquired by 3 Volkswagen o f America? When were they purchased 4 back? 5 A. I couldn't tell you exactly. I 6 would say in the seventies. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. My recollection it was Competition 9 M otors originally. Then it became Volkswagen 10 Pacific and then some time after that we 11 purchased it and the Reynold C. Johnson one I 12 believe was also in the seventies some time. 13 Q. Okay. 14 And prior to whatever time it was 15 that Volkswagen acquired these independent 16 distributorships, it was the independent 17 distributorships them selves that were running the 18 training schools in California, correct? 19 A. Yes, but they were running them in 20 conjunction with the requirements o f the training 21 courses and the training that their trainers got 22 and the docum ents and the m aterials that were 23 supplied through Volkswagen o f America. 24 Q. Okay. 25 Can you identify for me a 90 1 requirement imposed by Volkswagen of America that 2 nobody other than Volkswagen dealership employees 3 or Volkswagen employees were permitted to attend 4 the training? 5 A. N o, I can't. 6 Q. And you've not reviewed the 7 deposition testimony given by Mr. Boman in this 8 case, have you? 9 A. W ell, we did review verbally the 10 docum ents that were referred to in the one area 11 o f inquiry if you gave some page numbers, and I 12 know counsel read that information. You know, we 13 discussed it. I personally did not look at it 14 and read it myself. I relied on counsel to read 15 it accurately. 16 Q. Okay. 17 Did you read the part of 18 Mr. Bom an's testimony where he indicated that he 19 attended a program class or sem inar put on by 20 Volkswagen? 21 A. Yes, I, I -- that was -- 22 Volkswagen I believe was one o f the brands that 23 was mentioned in that sentence. Do you have the 24 sentence or do you have the testim ony there? W e 25 could read it and accurately see what it says. 91 1 Q. W ell, I'm ju s t asking you did he 2 read you the part where Mr. Bom an testified that 3 he attended a program, class or sem inar put on by 4 Volkswagen? 5 A. A s I recall, he read a sentence 6 w h e re Mr. B om an said he had a ttended cla sse s or 7 seminars, as he called them, put on by a couple 8 o f different manufacturers, and I think 9 Volksw agen w as one o f the nam es th a t he 10 m entioned. I don't think he said he attended 11 V o lksw a g e n sch o o ls specifically, but again, if 12 you've got the testim ony there, let's read it and 13 we can g et it accurately done. 14 Q. Okay. 15 I'm ju s t asking you yes or no did 16 he read th a t pa rt to you? It so u n ds like the 17 answ er is yes, correct? 18 MR. W INTERM AN: W ell, he doesn't -- 19 Counsel, the problem is he doesn't know w hat 20 you're specifically referring to. 21 He can tell you and he already has 22 told you th a t we looked at the pages that were 23 referred to in yo u r notice o f taking deposition. 24 That's what w as discussed with the witness. 25 Q. Did V o lksw a g e n training schools 92 1 give certificates to the people that attended 2 them? 3 A. The training centers would issue a 4 certificate to the dealership and to the, excuse 5 me, to the m echanic for his attendance at any 6 training session that he attended so that he 7 could show that he had been there. 8 Q. Okay. 9 And did you -- where you read the 10 portion o f Mr. B om an's testim o n y w here he 11 indicated that he had been certified as an 12 automotive brake mechanic by a number of 13 com panies including Volkswagen? 14 A. There was testim ony read by 15 counsel from the transcripts which were the pages 16 listed in N um ber 4 in the Notice o f Deposition, 17 Pages 1287 colon 16 through 1289 colon 12 where 18 he said som ething about being certified to 19 perform brake repairs. 20 Q. Okay. 21 And so that's consistent with the 22 practice of the Volkswagen training schools 23 giving certificates to those people that had 24 attended the course, correct? 25 A. No, that's a totally different HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 93 1 subject. 2 Q. How so? 3 A. W ell, we don't certify people to 4 do anything. W e train them and then give them a 5 certificate that says they have attended the 6 training. T hat doesn't certify them to do 7 anything. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. It ju s t sim ply says they have 10 a tte n d e d th e tra in in g and p a sse d it. 11 Q. Okay. 12 Now, to a layperson receiving a 13 certificate could reasonably be interpreted as 14 being certified, correct? 15 MR. W INTERM AN: Calls for 16 speculation, conjecture and lacks foundation. 17 T here is no w ay he knows. 18 A. W e ll, g e n e ra lly s p e a kin g in the 19 autom obile industry when you are certified by 20 som ebody, that's an official course th a t you've 21 gone through. Like right now you can be 22 ce rtifie d in a n u m b e r o f a re a s a cco rd in g to th e 23 N A S A A o r w h a te v e r th e re is, th e re is A S E 24 certifications that you can get and actually 25 pass. You take a te st and you pass it and you 94 1 are an approved technician for that particular 2 operation. T hat's a little bit different than 3 attending a Volkswagen service school and getting 4 a certificate to put on the wall o f your 5 dealership saying you've attended that particular 6 service school. 7 Q. Okay. 8 But in either case you're getting 9 a certificate, correct? 10 A. Well, you would get a 11 certification -- you would get a certificate that 12 says you attended that, yes, but there are 13 certain com panies that give courses, and you can 14 be a certified m echanic in a certain aspect o f 15 repair o f a particular item put on by a company 16 representative for particular parts or 17 carburetors or fuel injection system s or whatever 18 it is, brake system s. 19 The com panies will give courses, 20 and you can become a certified brake mechanic for 21 Bendix brakes or som ething like that. It m ay not 22 be Bendix, but som e o f those com panies used to 23 hold training courses and they would give out 24 certificates so that if you wanted to open a 25 Firestone repair store, your people went to the 95 1 Firestone school and were certified m echanics to 2 w o rk a t F irestone in th e b ra ke area o r w h a te ve r 3 it w as they were doing. 4 Q. Okay. You don't have any -- 5 Strike that. 6 Volkswagen o f Am erica does not 7 have any docum ent that would indicate that 8 Mr. Bom an was prohibited from attending a 9 training course held by Volksw agen relating to 10 brakes, correct? 11 A. N o, if Mr. Bom an worked for an 12 authorized Volkswagen dealer he could attend 13 w hatever courses are being offered by a 14 Volksw agen training facility as long as his 15 em ployer w as willing to pay fo r him to be there. 16 MR. STUEM KE: Objection. 17 N o n -re s p o n s iv e . 18 19 BY MR. STUEMKE: 20 Q. Sir, does Volksw agen o f Am erica 21 have a docum ent indicating th a t Mr. Bom an w ould 22 not have been perm itted to attend a Volkswagen 23 training course relating to brakes? 24 A. I think I already answered that 25 question. Mr. Bom an w as an em ployee o f an 96 1 authorized Volkswagen dealer. He would be 2 permitted to train, to attend any training that 3 w as put on by V olksw agen as long as his em ployer 4 approved o f it and w as willing to allow him to 5 come to that training. That's, that's, that's 6 w hat we would have. 7 Q. Okay. 8 So Volkswagen does not have any 9 reason to believe that Mr. Boman did not attend a 10 training course relating to brakes held by 11 Volkswagen as he testified, correct? 12 MR. W INTERM AN: Misstates, 13 m ischaracterizes the witness' testimony. 14 A. That's not correct. 15 Q. W hat inform ation, w hat -- 16 Strike that. 17 W hat document exists that 18 Volkswagen o f Am erica can show this jury to 19 support your testim ony that Mr. Bom an w ould not 20 have been allowed to attend a Volkswagen training 21 course for brakes? 22 A. Oh, I'm sorry. 23 MR. W INTERM AN: Excuse me. This, 24 Counsel, with all due respect, I think you're 25 killing a dead horse here. I mean you've been HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 97 1 over this and over this and over this and his 2 answers aren't going to change. It's pretty clear 3 w hat the position is so I m ean I'm not going to 4 instruct him not to answ er as o f yet, but all of 5 this has been asked and answered now. 6 A. I have no record that Mr. Boman 7 was ever an employee o f an authorized Volkswagen 8 dealership. As such, he would not be able to 9 attend any authorized Volkswagen dealer training. 10 Q. But you -- 11 A. I don't have any records that show 12 that he tried to apply and was rejected because 13 he was not an em ployee o f an authorized 14 Volksw agen dealer. He him self would not apply. 15 T he application procedure is that the area 16 representative fo r the dealership review s the 17 dealership's training records when he's there on 18 his m onthly or bi-weekly visit and he m akes the 19 appointm ents for the m echanics with the dealer's 20 approval to attend the training sessions. 21 Now, if Mr. Boman -- if you -- are 22 you telling me Mr. Boman w as em ployed by an 23 authorized Volksw agen dealership som e tim e during 24 his w ork career? 25 Q. Okay. 98 1 Now, it sounds like you've 2 actually looked through the records o f the 3 train in g sch o o ls in C alifornia to see that, have 4 you? 5 A. No, there are no records going 6 back -- 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. -- to the sixties and the 9 seventies -- 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. -- from those repair facilities, 12 but w hat I said w as that the training is still 13 co n d ucte d in the sam e m anner b a sically u n d er the 14 sam e rules and regulations that we had back then. 15 It's ju s t been im proved to include the newer 16 types o f system s and materials. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. And it's still done the same way. 19 Q. B ut when you told th is ju ry a 20 m inute ago, I don't have any records that show 21 that he tried to apply and w as rejected because 22 he w as not an em ployee o f an authorized dealer, 23 you're not m eaning to suggest that you have 24 records that you could even look at for that, are 25 you? 99 1 A. There are no records to look at. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. W hat I said w as I have no 4 inform ation. I have no record anywhere that 5 Mr. Bom an w a s an em ployee o f an authorized 6 Volksw agen dealer. 7 Q. Okay. 8 And you also -- 9 A. W as he an authorized or em ployee 10 any tim e during his w ork career? 11 Q. Mr. C am eron, you u n d ersta n d I'm 12 asking the questions here today. This isn't -- 13 this isn't Volksw agen's tim e to learn inform ation 14 from my client. They've already had their chance 15 to do that. 16 A. N o, I u n d ersta n d that, sir. 17 Q. Do you understand that? All 18 right? 19 A. But if he was w orking for a 20 d e a le rsh ip th a t m ay still be in e xiste n ce th a t 21 w a s in e xiste n ce b a c k in the sixtie s and the 22 seventies and you can point me to that dealership 23 where he worked, then maybe the dealership has 24 som e em ployees. I have no idea. I can't ask 25 e ve ry d e a le rsh ip in the U n ite d S ta te s th a t 100 1 Mr. Boman ever worked for them back in the 2 sixties and the seventies. 3 Q. Okay. 4 MR. STUEM KE: I'm going to object 5 as non-responsive. 6 Q. So just to kind of sum up, let me 7 see if I understand your testimony: Volkswagen 8 does not have any records o f the training schools 9 conducted by the independent distributorships in 10 California in the nineteen-sixties and 11 nineteen-seventies, correct? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. Okay. 14 At the time independent 15 distributorships were running those training 16 courses, Volksw agen did not own those 17 distributorships, correct? 18 A. At the time the independent 19 distributor w as running a Volksw agen did not own 20 it, it would not be an independent distributor if 21 Volksw agen owned it. 22 Q. And that's m y point. It wasn't a 23 Volkswagen owned com pany that was running those 24 training schools in the nineteen-sixties and 25 nineteen-seventies, correct? HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 101 1 MR. W INTERM AN: That m isstates and 2 m ischaracterizes the testimony. Depends on what 3 p oint in tim e. 4 MR. STUEMKE: Okay. 5 6 BY MR. STUEMKE: 7 Q. It w as not a Volkswagen owned 8 co m p a n y th a t ran the tra in in g schools in the 9 nineteen-sixties and the nineteen-seventies up 10 u n til the point in tim e w hen V o lksw a g e n acquired 11 those independent distributorships, w henever that 12 w a s, correct? 13 A. W hen they were independent 14 distributors they were run by the people that 15 owned the independent distributors and not by 16 Volkswagen, but they operated under the 17 Volkswagen rules and regulations for operating a 18 distributorship. It w as a contractual 19 relationship. 20 Q. Okay. 21 And you can't identify any rule or 22 regulation that indicates that only Volkswagen 23 dealership m echanics or Volkswagen company 24 em ployees were perm itted to attend those training 25 schools, can you? 102 1 A. I can't show th a t particular piece 2 of paper, no. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A n d so you're n o t in a po sitio n to 5 tell this ju ry th a t Mr. Bom an w a s either lying or 6 otherwise incorrect when he testified to having 7 attended a brake school put on by Volkswagen, 8 correct? 9 A. No, I can only tell the jury that 10 Volksw agen would not allow anyone to attend its 11 training sessions unless they were an em ployee of 12 an authorized Volkswagen dealer. That's the way 13 the system w as set up. 14 Q. Okay. 15 And, again, there is no docum ents 16 that reflect that, correct? 17 MR. W INTERM AN: That's asked and 18 answered. 19 Let's m ove on, Counsel. 20 Q. You can answ er the question. 21 A. There is no docum ent that reflects 22 that, that's correct. 23 Q. Okay. 24 Now, sir, it's true th a t every 25 single car that Volkswagen o f Am erica sold from 103 1 its beginning in 1955 to the late 2 nineteen-eighties contained asbestos, correct? 3 A. To the when, sir? 4 Q. Late nineteen-eighties. 5 A. That's not correct. 6 Q. Do you recall giving testim o n y in 7 a case named G askill? 8 A. I recall testifying at Gaskill. I 9 think I had one or two depositions or deposition 10 sessions at Gaskill. 11 Q. I point you to, sir, Page 47 of 12 the tra n scrip t o f yo u r deposition given in the 13 Gaskill case dated July 14th, 2008 here a t this 14 sam e office in N ew York. Page 47, Line 2 through 15 Line 10. 16 MR. W INTERMAN: Okay. 17 Q. A nd you can read along w ith me, 18 sir. 19 Do you see that beginning at Line 20 2 on Page 47 you're asked: So from 1955 until 21 som e tim e in the late nin e tee n -e ig htie s all o f 22 the cars sold by Volkswagen contained asbestos? 23 There is an objection. 24 You ask: Again, we're talking 25 about Volkswagen of Am erica? 104 1 Yes, sir. 2 Q uestion, so the answ er is yes? 3 And you answer: Yes. 4 A. (R eview s.) 5 Q. Do you see that? 6 MR. W IN T E R M A N : T hat's an, th a t is 7 an incorrect statem ent or characterization of the 8 transcript and so let's -- w hy don't you correctly 9 identify w hat he says. 10 MR. S T U E M K E : I did. 11 MR. W IN T E R M A N : He says -- 12 M R. S T U E M K E : I ju s t rea d it. 13 MR. W IN T E R M A N : T ha t is incorrect, 14 C o u n s e l. 15 It says, q u o te : In th a t area, yes, 16 sir, dep en d in g on the m odel line. 17 A re a of tim e, sir, not, not, not 18 direct as you have tried to m islead this ju ry to 19 b e lie v e . 20 MR. STU EM KE: That's offensive. 21 I'm reading verb a tim from the transcript. 22 MR. W IN TER M AN : W ell, then -- 23 MR. STU E M K E : I don't know w hat 24 y o u 're lo oking at. 25 MR. W IN TER M AN : Then you ought to HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 105 1 read, read the w hole thing then. 2 MR. STUEM KE: Are you serious? 3 MR. W IN T E R M A N : I'm dead serious. 4 Y ou're m isleading this jury. 5 MR. STUEM KE: That -- wow. 6 MR. W IN T E R M A N : O r attem pting to. 7 MR. STU EM KE : W ow. All right. 8 W ell, let's read the entire page then starting 9 w ith the question on Line 2. 10 11 BY MR. STUEMKE: 12 Q. So fro m 1955 until so m e tim e in 13 th e late n in e tee n -e ig htie s all o f the ca rs sold 14 by Volksw agen contained asbestos. 15 There is an objection. 16 A n d y o u r a n s w e r is: A g a in , w e 're 17 talking about Volksw agen of Am erica? 18 Yes, sir. 19 Did I read that portion correctly, 20 Mr. C am eron? 21 A. Yes, sir, th a t's w h a t it says. 22 Q. Okay. 23 And beginning at Line 9 the 24 question is asked so the a n sw er is yes, and w hat 25 is your answ er on Line 10, sir? 106 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Okay. 3 And isn't that the same thing that 4 I ju s t read a m om ent ago? 5 A. That's w hat you read, sir, but 6 you've got to read the rest o f the com m ents and 7 the answ ers to the questions on Page 47 all the 8 way over to Page 49 to understand w hat cars 9 co n taine d a sb e sto s and w h ich o n e s d id n 't in th a t 10 tim e fram e th a t you're talking about. 11 Q. Okay. 12 MR. S T U E M K E : I'll o b je ct as 13 non-responsive. 14 Q. The question is asked on Line 11: 15 Did you also sell asbestos-containing replacem ent 16 parts? 17 W hat's your answer, sir? 18 A. The parts for those cars would 19 have contained asbestos, yes. 20 Q. Okay. 21 And then the question is asked: 22 And during w hat period of tim e would the parts 23 for the cars that you sold have contained 24 asbestos? 25 W hat's your answer, sir? 107 1 A. A t the sam e tim e. 2 Q. Okay. 3 T hen it says: So fro m 1955 all 4 the w ay through late nineteen-eighties. 5 A n d w hat's your answ er? 6 A. In th a t area, sir, yes, d e pending 7 on th e m odel line. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A n d th a t question is relating to 10 the parts, correct, replacem ent parts? 11 A. Yes, fo r the cars from 1955 into 12 the late eighties. 13 Q. Okay. 14 MR. W IN T E R M A N : I'm going to m ove 15 to strike this w hole line of questioning as 16 im p ro p e r use o f the deposition. It's not 17 im peachm ent. 18 MR. STUEM KE: Okay. 19 20 BY MR. STUEMKE: 21 Q. G ive that back. 22 A. (C om plies.) 23 Q. So, sir, is it true o r not true 24 th a t fro m 1 955 until s o m e tim e in th e late 25 n in e te e n -e ig h tie s all o f the ca rs so ld by 108 1 Volkswagen contained asbestos? 2 A. It's not true. 3 Q. Okay. 4 And you recognize that you 5 testified that it w as true just a year ago? 6 MR. W INTERM AN: Misstates, 7 m ischaracterizes the testimony. 8 A rg u m e n ta tive . 9 A. I testified that some of the cars 10 had it in them until 1989 I believe it was, but 11 we started taking out -- if you continue to read 12 that transcript and go on one or tw o pages, it 13 talks about we started to take or received 14 vehicles from the m anufacturers with non-asbestos 15 pa rts starting in the early eighties. 16 So that continued on so that all 17 product lines w hich you characterize, all 18 Volksw agens from 1950 through 1989 had asbestos 19 in them . That's not true. 20 Q. Okay. I didn't say 1989, did I? 21 A. In your original question I 22 believe you did. You said: B ut we tried to 23 characterize it into the late eighties, whatever 24 you would characterize the late eighties. 25 I'm telling you that in the early HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 109 1 eighties som e o f the product lines did not have 2 a sb e sto s in them , and it w a s ta ke n o u t o v e r a 3 period o f tim e so that by the end o f the eighties 4 the cars were asbestos-free. 5 Q. Okay. 6 So you're telling this ju ry that 7 in the e arly n in e te e n -e ig h tie s V o lksw a g e n w a s 8 able to produce vehicles that didn't contain a 9 single fiber o f asbestos? 10 A. W h a t I am saying w a s th a t in the 11 early eighties we started receiving vehicles from 12 the m a n u fa ctu re r w h ich co n taine d no a sb e sto s in 13 the brakes or the clutches gaskets which is the 14 area th a t you're talking about here. 15 Q. Okay. 16 Did it have other asbestos 17 co m p o n e n ts? 18 A. I don't know if it did or not 19 right at the moment. 20 Q. Okay. 21 So from the early 22 nineteen-eighties when Volksw agen w as first able 23 to produce cars that didn't contain asbestos 24 brakes and asbestos gaskets and asbestos 25 clutches, they continued to still sell other 110 1 m odels that did have those asbestos components, 2 correct? 3 A. I have a problem. You said 4 Volkswagen. Volkswagen, we agreed when you use 5 the word Volkswagen, you're talking about 6 Volkswagen Group o f America, is that correct? 7 Q. Okay. Fine. Let's re-ask the 8 question. 9 A. Volkswagen Group of America never 10 manufactured a car. 11 Q. Okay. 12 Volkswagen o f Germany first 13 started delivering to Volkswagen o f America cars 14 that didn't contain any asbestos components 15 you're telling us in early nineteen-eighties, 16 correct? 17 A. They started removing the asbestos 18 from the cars in the nineteen-eighties, in the 19 early nineteen-eighties, that's correct. 20 Q. Okay. 21 When was the first car -- when was 22 the first car that did not incorporate any 23 asbestos-containing components sold by Volkswagen 24 o f America? 25 A. I couldn't give you a date for 111 1 that, sir. 2 Q. All right. 3 A. I don't have that date. 4 Q. Can you say that's the early 5 nineteen-eighties or no? 6 A. W ell, in the early 7 nineteen-eighties they rem oved the asbestos from 8 the brakes and the clutch system s and they 9 started taking it out o f gaskets is w hat I can 10 tell you. 11 Q. Okay. 12 And w hat docum ents exist to 13 support that belief, sir? 14 A. I d o n 't have any docum ents. It's 15 from my personal knowledge. 16 Q. Okay. 17 So w as there a car sold before 18 1985 by Volkswagen of Am erica that did not 19 include either asbestos-containing gaskets, 20 clutches or brakes? 21 A. I believe the type 3, excuse me, 22 type 3 or Quantum or Passat, I forget w hat we 23 were calling them back then, w as the first series 24 th a t cam e in and w ere rep re se n te d to us as being 25 asbestos-free. 112 1 Q. And when was that first sold by 2 Volkswagen of America? 3 A. Oh, in the early eighties, '82, 4 '83, som ewhere around there. That's what we were 5 informed. 6 Q. Okay. 7 And were you inform ed in writing 8 or was this just a phone call or what? 9 A. I don't know how the message was, 10 cam e across but over the years w hen we discussed 11 this and answered interrogatories and there's 12 been testim ony from factory witnesses that that's 13 the tim e fram e. 14 Q. Okay. 15 W hat was the -- after the Passat 16 or w hatever -- well, first o ff was it the P a ssa t 17 th a t you're referring to th a t th a t w as the first 18 car to be asbestos-free sold by Volksw agen? 19 A. Well, it was the Passat model 20 line. I don't recall exactly what we were 21 calling it back then. 22 Q. Okay. 23 W hat was the next model line that 24 V olksw agen sold that w as asbestos-free? 25 A. I couldn't give you a m odel line. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 113 1 The vehicles had the asbestos removed by the end 2 o f the eighties. That's w hat we were informed. 3 Q. Okay. 4 Volkswagen o f Am erica sold 5 asbe sto s-co n taining rep la ce m e n t parts from its 6 beginning in 1955 until the late 7 nineteen-eighties, correct? 8 A. W e sold asbestos-containing 9 rep la ce m e n t parts, th e re p robably w ere som e in 10 the system up through the late eighties, yes. 11 Q. Okay. 12 And those asbestos-containing 13 products sold by Volkswagen o f Am erica included 14 asbestos-containing brakes, correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. A nd th o se brake linings contained 17 about thirty percent asbestos, correct? 18 A. My inform ation is from one o f the 19 engineers that it w as a thirty percent mix, yes. 20 Q. Okay. 21 Now, within Volkswagen of Am erica 22 w hat does the term m aterial specification mean? 23 A. W ell, material specification, I 24 th in k that's a, it's a docum ent that's produced 25 by a supplier for, to label w hat the com ponents 114 1 are within the part that he's supplying. That's 2 my understanding. 3 Q. Okay. 4 And for the replacem ent products 5 th a t it sold, well, specifically fo r the 6 replacem ent brakes that Volkswagen of Am erica 7 sold, it provided the specifications for 8 m anufacture o f those replacem ent linings, 9 correct? 10 A. I don't understand w hat you mean 11 by that question. 12 Q. Okay. 13 Did Volksw agen o f Am erica provide 14 the specifications for the m anufacture of any of 15 the bonded brake linings which it purchased from 16 the European Parts Exchange? 17 A. I believe they passed on the 18 perform ance specifications from the m anufacturer 19 of the vehicle which would have been Volkswagen 20 in G erm any. 21 Q. Okay. 22 And m aterial specifications as 23 well, correct? 24 A. If such existed I would assume 25 they passed them on, yes. 115 1 Q. Okay. 2 And so that w ould be Volksw agen of 3 Am erica telling the m anufacturer or supplier of 4 replacem ent linings w hat those replacem ent 5 linings should consist of, correct? 6 A. No, I don't believe w e told them 7 w h a t th e y should consist of. 8 In fact, so m e tim e s th e m ate ria ls 9 that they were made out of m ight have been a 10 trade secret, so to speak, because they had their 11 own w ay of m aking the linings, but w hat w e gave 12 them were perform ance specifications for w hat 13 perform ance the linings should do, and if they 14 subm itted linings to us, I believe we passed the 15 linings on to G erm any so that they could test 16 them to make sure that they m et the Volkswagen 17 perform ance specifications. 18 Q. Okay. 19 Is it yo u r testim ony that 20 Volksw agen of A m erica did not provide m aterial 21 specifications for those replacem ent linings? 22 A. T h a t's n o t w h a t I said, sir. 23 Q. Did V olksw agen of Am erica supply 24 m aterial specifications fo r those replacem ent 25 linings? 116 1 A. A s I said, I don't know exactly 2 w h a t w e supplied to them . If w e w ere given that 3 inform ation from the m anufacturer of the car, we 4 w ould have passed it on to the people w ho w ere 5 trying to sell us brake linings. 6 Q. Okay. Okay. 7 And are there any docum ents that 8 exist that relate to any of that? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Okay. 11 W hy not? 12 A. Because our normal docum ent 13 retention program is tw o years and th a t 14 inform ation to o k place or that, those 15 tra n s a c tio n s to o k p la ce in th e late se ve n tie s , 16 early eighties. 17 Q. And fo r how long has yo u r docum ent 18 retention policy ju s t been two years? 19 A. S in ce s o m e tim e b a c k in th e 20 eighties. 21 Q. W h a t w as it before that? 22 A. T hey didn't have one th a t you w ere 23 allow ed to keep m aterials fo r w hatever length of 24 tim e yo u th o u g h t it w o u ld be sp e c ific to keep it, 25 b u t th e n in th e sixtie s, m id dle s ix tie s th e y c a m e HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 117 1 out with the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety 2 Standards which required us to keep docum entation 3 in reference to safety items for a specific 4 amount o f time. 5 There is IRS regulations for 6 financial regulations. So in the eig h tie s they 7 solidified a records retention program, but 8 general correspondence and general materials are 9 kept for two years. 10 Q. Okay. 11 How long were safety related 12 docum ents required to be retained by the Federal 13 Motor Vehicle Safety Act? 14 A. I believe it w as five years. 15 Q. And can you tell the jury when 16 V olksw agen of A m erica last sold replacem ent brake 17 linings that contained asbestos? 18 A. I can't give you an exact date. 19 It would have been som e tim e in the late 20 eighties, probably '87, '88. 21 Q. Okay. 22 The replacement products that 23 contained asbestos which V olksw agen sold also 24 included asbestos-containing clutches, correct? 25 A. Yes, that's correct. 118 1 Q. Okay. 2 And that was true from 1955 when 3 the com pany started until the late 4 nineteen-eighties, correct? 5 A. Until 1989. 6 Q. Okay. 7 And the replacement 8 asbestos-containing products sold by Volkswagen 9 also included asbestos-containing exhaust 10 manifold gaskets, correct? 11 A. Som e o f them did, that's correct. 12 Q. Okay. 13 And Volksw agen o f Am erica sold 14 asbestos-containing exhaust manifold gaskets from 15 1955 until the late nineteen-eighties, correct? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. Som e o f the g askets did. Not all 19 gaskets contained asbestos. 20 Q. All right. 21 Did any exhaust manifold gaskets 22 not contain asbestos prior to 1985? 23 A. I don't know. 24 Q. Okay. 25 Did Volkswagen o f Am erica ever 119 1 sell vehicles that included asbestos-containing 2 in s u la tio n ? 3 A. I don't know o f any. 4 Q. Okay. 5 N o w , the reason I a sk, sir, is 6 th a t you've te stifie d in a p rio r d e p osition that 7 certain cars incorporated asbestos-containing 8 insulation. 9 Do you recall that? 10 A. I recall talking about insulation 11 a ro u n d the h e a te r b o xe s in the veh icle s, yes. 12 Q. Okay. 13 Did -- can you identify any 14 vehicles that contained asbestos insulation? 15 A. In the h e a te r bo xe s? 16 Q. A n yw h e re in the ca r? 17 A. W ell, I recall it being in the 18 heater boxes on some o f the type 3s and som e of 19 the vans. 20 Q. Okay. 21 So Volksw agen did sell vehicles 22 that had asbestos-containing insulation? 23 A. W ithin a confined -- I thought you 24 were talking about insulation like w e're talking 25 about to insulate the roof of your house, you 120 1 insulate the body o f the car. I th o u g h t th a t's 2 w h a t you're talking about. 3 Q. Okay. 4 B u t th e a n s w e r to th e q u e s tio n is 5 yes, V o lksw a g e n did sell cars w ith 6 asbe sto s-co n taining insulation, correct? 7 A. W ithin the heater boxes, yes. 8 Q. A nd w hen you say w ithin -- w here 9 is th e h e a te r box? 10 A. It's a tta ch e d to th e e ngine, on 11 the air cooled engines. 12 C O U R T R EP O R TE R : On the w hat? 13 T H E W IT N E S S : On th e a ir cooled 14 e n g in e s . 15 16 BY MR. STUEMKE: 17 Q. A nd w h a t w as the outside m aterial 18 of the heater box? 19 A. M etal. 20 Q. Okay. 21 And w hat w as the purpose o f the 22 in s u la tio n in th e h e a te r b o x? 23 A. To insulate the heater box and 24 m aintain the heat w ithin the heater box. 25 Q. Okay. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 121 1 A. It w as the heater box that 2 transm itted heat to the car and, therefore, you 3 insulate it ju s t like you do with your house to 4 keep the heat within the heater box. 5 Q. Okay. 6 And what type of asbestos was 7 included in th a t insulation? 8 A. I don't know. 9 Q. W hen did Volksw agen last sell 10 ve h ic le s in co rp o ra tin g a sb e sto s in su la tio n in the 11 heater box or anywhere else? 12 A. T hat would have to be air cooled. 13 So that would -- that would have to be probably 14 m aybe mid eighties, late eighties. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. S om e w h e re in th a t area. 17 Q. Could the heater box be opened? 18 A. I'm sorry? 19 Q. Could the heater box be opened? 20 A. Could it be opened? No, it w as a 21 crim ped welded design. It w as not som ething you 22 took apart. I mean if the heater box was not 23 functioning, you replaced the whole heater box. 24 Q. Okay. 25 A n d in rep la cin g the h e a te r box, 122 1 would, would the operator be able to see any of 2 this insulation th a t you're referring to? 3 A. The operator? You mean -- 4 Q . The person -- 5 A. -- the driver? 6 Q. T he person replacing it. 7 A. Oh, you mean the m echanic 8 replacing the heater box? Should be able to see 9 it. It's inside the h e a te r box. 10 Q. Okay. 11 And th a t's my question, is even as 12 it's being rem oved, is it, is it acce ssib le ? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Now, Volksw agen knew that certain 15 custom ers would change their own brakes on their 16 vehicles, correct? 17 A. Volkswagen Am erica was aware that 18 custom ers did their own repairs, yes. 19 Q. Okay. Including repairing brakes, 20 correct? 21 A. They could, yes. 22 Q. Okay. 23 Including repairing clutches, 24 correct? 25 A. They could, yes, if they had the 123 1 tools and the knowledge to do it, yes. 2 Q. Okay. 3 Including replacing exhaust 4 manifold gaskets, correct? 5 A. They could, yes. 6 Q. Okay. 7 And ju st in term s o f how 8 frequently brakes would need to be replaced, on a 9 Volkswagen Beetle, about how much mileage would 10 you expect to get out o f a set o f brakes? 11 A. Front brakes fifteen to 12 tw enty-five thousand miles. Rear brakes could be 13 assum ing they weren't abusing them or running 14 with the hand brake on tw enty to forty thousand. 15 Some people got more than that out o f them. 16 Q. Okay. 17 Now, if som ebody were using the 18 Beetle as a race car, that would cause heavier 19 usage o f the brakes, correct? 20 MR. W IN TER M AN : The question is 21 vague, am biguous, uncertain and unintelligible. 22 A. If they were using the Beetle as a 23 race car I assum e in most race cars that I had 24 association with you changed the brakes after 25 every race. 124 1 Q. Okay. 2 And how frequently w ould clutches 3 on V olksw agens, say up to the late 4 nineteen-seventies, have to be replaced? 5 A. F or the norm al driver? 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. S hould be able to get at least 8 sixty thousand m iles out of them . M ost of the 9 ones th a t I recall w ould be seventy-five, 10 eighty-five, ninety-five thousand m iles before 11 you'd co n sid e r replacing it assum ing, you know, 12 you're driving it correctly. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A n d if, if th a t V o lk s w a g e n w a s 15 being utilized as a race car, w ould, w ould the 16 clutches need to be replaced m ore frequently? 17 MR. W IN T E R M A N : T he question is 18 vague, am biguous, uncertain and unintelligible. 19 It ca lls fo r spe cu la tion and 20 c o n je c tu re . 21 C O U R T R EPO R TER : C ertainly 22 unin tellig ib le ? Is th a t w h a t you said? 23 MR. W IN T E R M A N : U ncertain and 24 unintelligible. It calls fo r speculation and 25 c o n je c tu re . HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 125 1 A. Again, race cars w ould norm ally 2 n o t use a sta n d a rd clutch, a t le a st in the 3 applications that I know about them . They use 4 som ething different including a w hole different 5 clu tch se tu p in there. 6 Because of the am ount of clutch 7 activation and the forces that are being exerted 8 during the races, they use a different setup, but 9 generally speaking you -- again, to take the 10 e n g in e in and o u t w a s n o t th a t d ifficu lt if you 11 had the correct tools, and the ones I w as 12 associated with, they w ould be checking that. 13 They usually rem oved the engine anyw ay after 14 e ve ry race to c h e c k it, and th e n th e y w o u ld c h e c k 15 the clutch at the sam e tim e and if necessary 16 re p la ce it. 17 18 BY MR. STUEMKE: 19 Q. Okay. 20 H ow frequently w ould exhaust 21 m anifold gaskets need to be replaced on 22 V o lk s w a g e n s ? 23 A. W hich exhaust m anifold gaskets and 24 w hich V olksw agens are w e talking about? 25 Q. W ell, can you give us a range? 126 1 A. No. 2 Q. W h a t is th e le a st a m o u n t of 3 m ileage th a t yo u'd expect to get out of an 4 exhaust m anifold gasket, any exhaust m anifold 5 g a s k e t? 6 A. W ell, th a t w ould be som ething 7 co n nected w ith th e m uffler. Y ou sh o u ld get a 8 couple o f ye ars out of a m uffler. D epends on -- 9 you know, m ileage is not th e de term in in g fa cto r 10 norm ally w ith th e m uffler. 11 Q. Okay. 12 So exhaust m anifold gaskets m ay 13 need to be replaced every couple of years? 14 A. Yes, w ith the m uffler, th e y get 15 re p la ce d a t th e tim e th e m uffle r is replaced. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A n d you're aw are th a t -- turn your 18 attention b ack to brakes, yo u're aw are th a t 19 brakes can glaze, correct? 20 A. I am aw are th a t there are, there 21 is such a th in g as glazed brakes, yes. 22 Q. A n d ju s t d e fin e w h a t th a t is fo r 23 th e jury, please. 24 A. W ell, norm ally if you get som e 25 kind o f fo re ig n m atter into the brake drum area 127 1 between the brake shoe and the brake drum and you 2 apply the brakes, because of the heat that's 3 generated during the braking operation, this 4 material can form like a glaze over the brake 5 shoe. 6 I mean you're driving through a 7 puddle and there is some oil in that puddle and 8 it gets onto the brakes and you apply the brakes 9 later on, you can get a glazing on the surface of 10 the brake lining itself. That's what I would 11 refer to it as a glaze, glaze brake. 12 Q . And you know that people have used 13 sand paper to take the glaze o ff o f brakes, 14 correct? 15 A. I have heard of people doing that. 16 It is not an approved method o f doing that. 17 Q . And you're aware that sanding 18 brakes will create visible dust? 19 MR. STUEMKE: On the phone, could 20 you please mute, could you please mute your 21 telephone so we don't have to hear your 22 conversation on the video? 23 Thank you. 24 Q. Let me ask the -- 25 A. I don't think they're paying 128 1 a ttention and th is is, th is is louder than you in 2 my ear. 3 MR. W INTERMAN: Hang on. 4 Counsel, w hoever has their phone 5 and is ta lking in the background, w ould you please 6 put it on mute? 7 (No response.) 8 MR. W INTERM AN: Counsel, Counsel, 9 would you please put your phone on mute? 10 (No response.) 11 MR. W INTERM AN: Hello. 12 (No response.) 13 MR. W INTERM AN: Counsel? 14 (No response.) 15 MR. W INTERM AN: Let's take a break 16 and figure o u t w ho he is. 17 THE VIDEO G RAPH ER: W e're going off 18 the record. 19 The tim e is approxim ately 12:04. 20 (W hereupon, a short recess is 21 taken.) 22 TH E V ID E O G R A P H E R : Stand by, 23 please. 24 W e are now back on the record. 25 The tim e is approxim ately 12:23. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 129 1 You may now proceed. 2 MR. STUEMKE: Okay. 3 4 BY MR. STUEMKE: 5 Q. Before our break, sir, we were, 6 Mr. Cam eron, we were talking about sanding brakes 7 when they become glazed. 8 Do you recall that? 9 A. I think I had given you some 10 explanation as to what I knew as a glazed brake 11 line. 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. Or how it occurred. 14 Q. And you agree that when someone 15 sands a brake, that that will create visible 16 dust, correct? 17 A. Well, whatever they sand off 18 depends on how th e y sand it and w hat kind of 19 sanding they're doing, but certainly if they're 20 going to sand the glaze off, that would create 21 glaze dust or w hatever w as there. 22 Q. Sure. 23 And if th e y keep sanding it and 24 they a ctually sand off som e o f the brake 25 material, that too would create visible dust, 130 1 correct? 2 A. If they kept on sanding beyond the 3 glaze, yes. Again, as I said, that's not an 4 approved repair. 5 Q. And you have seen mechanics use 6 compressed air to blow dust and debris off of 7 brakes, correct? 8 A. I had seen it happen a long tim e 9 ago at one of the dealerships, yes. 10 Q. Okay. 11 And you've, in fact, seen that 12 done with V olksw agen brakes, correct? 13 A. W ell, it w as a V olksw agen dealer 14 and a m echanic had blown out som e brakes. It was 15 the last tim e he did it. He only did it once 16 w hen I w as there anyway. I w as there for two 17 years. 18 Q. Okay. 19 And blowing, excuse me, using 20 com pressed air to blow dust and debris off of 21 brakes creates a cloud of dust, correct? 22 A. It w ould create a cloud of 23 w hatever w as on the brakes, mud, dirt, w hatever 24 w as there. 25 Q. Sure. 131 1 And blowing out brake drum s 2 cre a te s a cloud o f d irt and d u s t th a t g o e s all 3 over everything. 4 Is that fair? 5 A. It could, yes. That's why you 6 d o n 't do it. 7 MR. STUEM KE: O bjection to the 8 non-responsive portion. 9 10 BY MR. STUEMKE: 11 Q. Now, Volksw agen of Am erica never 12 told m echanics or anyone else not to use 13 com pressed air to blow out drum s, correct? 14 A. They never issued that kind o f an 15 order, no. That's som ething a m echanic should 16 kn o w in his norm al m e ch a n ic tra in in g n o t to do. 17 Q. Okay. 18 W hat normal m echanic training 19 tells m echanics not to use com pressed air to blow 20 out brake drums? 21 A. W ell, again it creates a cloud of 22 dirt and dust around the vehicle th a t you're 23 working on and yourself. I m ean you ju s t get 24 everything covered with dirt and dust. You 25 shouldn't norm ally use com pressed air other than 132 1 to d ry s o m e th in g o ff th a t is, th a t is w e t after 2 you've cleaned it o ff w ith solvent or water. 3 Q. Okay. 4 B u t as you say, that's just 5 som ething you think a m echanic should know. 6 That's not anything that Volkswagen ever told 7 m echanics or other people, correct? 8 A. That's part of your normal -- I 9 mean if you're a m echanic you don't take 10 com pressed air and create clouds of dust around 11 the area w here you're working. E verything gets 12 dirty. Then you have to clean it up. T hat's 13 ju st som ething you don't do. Like you don't 14 spill battery acid around. A lot o f things you 15 don't do as a m echanic. You don't touch steering 16 w heels when you have greasy hands. Things of 17 that nature. 18 Q. Okay. 19 B u t the answ er is no, Volksw agen 20 never told anybody that, correct? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. All right. 23 N ow , I'd like to ta lk w ith you 24 about w hat's com m only referred to as state of the 25 art. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 133 1 W hat Volkswagen of Am erica knew 2 about the potential hazards o f asbestos and when 3 they knew them , okay? Are you prepared to offer 4 that testim ony, sir? 5 A. I can tell you w hat my 6 recollection is fo r w hat Volksw agen o f Am erica 7 knew while I w as em ployed with them over my 8 period o f employm ent, yes. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A n d w a s V o lksw a g e n aw are th a t in 11 the nineteen-forties studies confirm ed that 12 asbestos could cause cancer? 13 MR. W IN TER M AN : The question is 14 vague, am biguous, uncertain and unintelligible. 15 A. W a s V o lksw a g e n aw are in the 16 nineteen-forties? 17 Q. S trike it. 18 Let's a sk it th is way: Prior to 19 the end of the nineteen-eighties, say up to 1990, 20 okay, w as Volkswagen aware that as early as the 21 nineteen-forties studies had confirm ed that 22 asbestos could cause cancer? 23 A. I don't have any inform ation about 24 that. 25 MR. W INTERM AN: Excuse me. 134 1 I'm going to m ove to strike the 2 answ er and interpose an objection. 3 T he question is vague, am biguous, 4 uncertain and unintelligible. 5 Q. P rio r to 199 0 w as Volksw agen aware 6 th a t by the, by the m iddle of the 7 nineteen-sixties there w ere over seven hundred 8 articles show ing that asbestos could kill people? 9 A. I'm not aw are of a n y of those 10 articles. 11 Q. Okay. 12 Now, you stated th a t your office 13 is in N e w Je rse y, c o rre c t? 14 A. T hat's correct. 15 Q. A n d w h a t to w n in N e w J e rse y? 16 A. R ight now it's Fort Lee. 17 Q. Okay. 18 W here has it been historically? 19 A. In E n g le w o o d C liffs, N e w Je rse y. 20 Q. H ow fa r aw ay is th a t from w here w e 21 are to d a y in M anhattan? 22 A. A b o u t ten miles. 23 Q. O kay. A nd you'd agree th a t -- 24 W ell, strike that. 25 W as that w here Volksw agen of 135 1 A m erica w as based in the nineteen-sixties and 2 nineteen-seventies? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Okay. 5 And you'd agree that there 6 certainly would have been a num ber o f Volkswagen 7 em ployees that read the N ew Y o rk T im e s in that 8 tim e fram e, correct? 9 A. I would assume some o f them read 10 it, yes. 11 MR. STUEM KE: Let's m ark this as 12 next. 13 COURT REPORTER: (Complies.) 14 (Whereupon, one-page New York 15 Times article published September 30th, 1972 16 entitled Shipyard W orkers o f 1940s Told o f Cancer 17 Peril, not bearing a Bates stam p, is received and 18 marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 5 for 19 Identification.) 20 C O U R T REP O R TE R : N um ber 5. 21 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are we on a 22 break? 23 MR. W INTERM AN: No, we're reviewing 24 an article. 25 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, thank 136 1 you. 2 3 Okay. Sorry. 4 BY MR. STUEMKE: 5 Q. Sir, y o u 'v e b e e n h a n d e d E x h ib it 5. 6 T his is an article from th e N ew Y o rk Tim es 7 published S eptem ber 30th, 1972. 8 MR. W IN T E R M A N : Ju st give him a 9 m om ent, C ounsel, to review th e article, please. 10 M R. S T U E M K E : C o u ld w h o e v e r is 11 typing on the phone please m ute yo u r phone? 12 A. O ka y, I've re a d it. 13 14 BY MR. STUEMKE: 15 Q. Now, have you ever seen this 16 article before? 17 A. I believe I have m any years ago. 18 Q. O kay. In 1972? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. It w a s m ore rece n t th a n that. 22 Q. In w h a t c o n te x t d id you se e th is 23 a rtic le ? 24 A. I b e lieve it w a s eith e r p roduced 25 o r sh o w n to m e in a n o th e r case. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 137 1 Q. Okay. 2 And you see that this article was 3 published Septem ber 30th, 1972 in the New Y ork 4 Times? 5 A. T hat's w hat it says, yes. 6 Q. Okay. 7 And I've highlighted a couple of 8 paragraphs in this article. 9 A. (Reviews.) 10 Q. Do you see that? 11 A. There are two yellow areas, yes. 12 Q. Okay. 13 The first states: An expert on 14 environm ental medicine warned here today that the 15 millions o f men and wom en who were directly or 16 indirectly exposed to asbestos while they worked 17 in shipyards in W orld W a r II faced the 18 possibility o f an imminent epidem ic o f a 19 once-rare cancer, correct? 20 A. T hat's w hat it says, yes. 21 Q. And you see in the following 22 paragraph that the ca n ce r they're referring to is 23 called mesothelioma, correct? 24 A. T hat's w hat it says, yes. 25 Q. And later in the article do you 138 1 see that it indicates that Dr. S elikoff also 2 expressed concern about the possible risks faced 3 by people in the g e neral urban population? 4 A. That's w hat it says, yes. 5 Possible risk. 6 Q. Okay. 7 And among the sources o f potential 8 exposure to asbestos th a t are m entioned here is 9 brake linings, correct? 10 A. That's one o f them, yes. He 11 m entions a whole bunch of them: Buildings under 12 construction; papier-m ache; asbestos-lined air 13 conditioning ducts; brake linings; and some 14 ironing board coverings. 15 Q. Sure. 16 Now, are you aware if anybody at 17 V o lksw a g e n read th is article in 1972? 18 A. No, I'm not. 19 Q. Okay. 20 And you don't recall if you 21 yourself did, correct? 22 A. I, I w as not a reader o f The T im es 23 at that time. 24 Q. Okay. Fair enough. 25 A. Nor today. 139 1 Q. Now, Volksw agen o f A m erica did not 2 take any action with respect to potential 3 concerns about exposure to asbestos from brake 4 linings as a result of the publication of this 5 a rticle in 1 9 7 2, co rre ct? 6 A. I don't -- 7 MR. W IN TER M AN : Excuse me. 8 A s s u m e s fa c ts n o t in evidence. 9 Lacks foundation. 10 A. I don't know o f anything. I don't 11 know if anybody read the article. 12 Q. Okay. 13 I understand you don't know if 14 anybody read the article, but w h a t you do know is 15 that there w ere no steps taken by Volksw agen of 16 Am erica follow ing the publication of this article 17 to address potential concerns about asbestos 18 health hazards fo r brake linings, correct? 19 A. In refe re n ce to th is p a rticu la r 20 article? 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. No. 23 Q. Okay. 24 MR. STUEM KE: M ark this 25 (indicating). 140 1 COURT REPORTER: (Complies.) 2 (Whereupon, one-page New York 3 Times article published O ctober 5th, 1972 4 entitled W ider L in k to C ancer Found in A sbestos 5 W orkers, not bearing a Bates stamp, is received 6 and marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 6 for 7 Identification.) 8 C O U R T REP O R TE R : N um ber 6. 9 MR. STUEMKE: W hile you gentlemen 10 are reviewing that let's take a break to change 11 the tape and, you know, if you guys need a break 12 for any other reasons w e can do that now. 13 THE VIDEO G RAPHER: W e are going off 14 the record. 15 The tim e is approxim ately 12:36 16 p.m. 17 This is the end o f Videotape Number 18 2 in the deposition o f Robert Cam eron. 19 (W hereupon, a short recess is 20 taken.) 21 TH E V ID E O G R A P H E R : Stand by, 22 please. 23 We are now back on the record. 24 The tim e is approxim ately 12:41 25 p.m. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 141 1 T his is the beginning o f V ideotape 2 N u m b e r 3 in th e d e p o sitio n o f R o b e rt C a m ero n . 3 You m ay now proceed. 4 5 BY MR. STUEMKE: 6 Q. Mr. C am ero n , you've had a chance 7 now to review Exhibit 6, correct? 8 A. Yes, I have. 9 Q. You see th a t Exhibit 6 is an 10 article entitled, entitled W id e r Lin k to C ancer 11 F o u n d in A s b e s to s W o rk e rs , co rre ct? 12 A. Yes, appears to be a follow -up 13 article to the one you referenced earlier. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A nd you see th a t th is is an 16 a rticle p u b lis h e d in th e N e w Y o rk T im e s O c to b e r 17 5th, 1972, correct? 18 A. That's w h a t it says, yes. 19 Q. Okay. 20 And you see th a t this article 21 indicates th a t a team of ca n ce r researchers 22 reported yesterday that asbestos already 23 im p lic a te d as a c a u se o f lu n g c a n c e r in w o rk e rs 24 repeatedly exposed to the m aterial m ight also 25 h a ve ca u s e d a th re e -fo ld in cre a se in th e 142 1 incidence of ca n ce r of the stom ach, colon and 2 re ctu m in th e s a m e w o rke rs. 3 A. (R eview s.) 4 Q. Do you see that? 5 A. Yes, that's the first paragraph. 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. Talking about insulation workers. 8 Q. All right. 9 MR. STUEM KE: Let me object to the 10 non-responsive portions. 11 Q. Y ou se e fu rth e r in th e a rticle it 12 s ta te s th a t in u rb a n a re a s it h a s been s h o w n th a t 13 ano th e r significant source of airborne asbestos 14 is th e w e a rin g a w a y o f a s b e s to s b ra ke lin in g s in 15 autom obiles and trucks. The act o f applying the 16 b ra k e s in su ch v e h ic le s ru b s o ff a fin e a s b e s to s 17 d u st th a t is th e n kicked into the air by the 18 drafts of m oving traffic. 19 A. (R eview s.) 20 Q. D id I read th a t correctly, sir? 21 A. That's w hat that paragraph says, 22 yes. 23 Q. Again, you don't know if anybody 24 at Volksw agen read this article at about the tim e 25 it w a s p u b lish e d in 1972, c o rre ct? 143 1 A. No, I don't. 2 Q. You can testify though that 3 Volkswagen took no action to investigate the 4 potential health hazards o f asbestos brake 5 linings following the publication o f this article 6 in 1972, correct? 7 MR. WINTERMAN: Assum es facts not 8 in evidence. 9 Lacks foundation. 10 A. I don't know o f anything. 11 Q. Okay. 12 And you understand you're 13 testifying on that issue as the person most 14 knowledgeable for Volksw agen today, correct? 15 MR. W INTERM AN: That's, that's 16 vague and am biguous. H e's told you already having 17 gone through your list o f the things that he's 18 here to testify to. 19 20 BY MR. STUEMKE: 21 Q. Sir, you understand that one o f 22 the topics you're addressing here today is when 23 Volksw agen knew about potential hazards o f 24 asbestos and any steps they to o k in response to 25 that knowledge, correct? 144 1 MR. W IN T E R M A N : That's not quite 2 w h a t y o u r d o c u m e n t sa ys, b u t in a n y event. 3 A. Basically, yes. 4 Q. Okay. 5 And to your know ledge Volksw agen 6 of A m erica took no action follow ing the 7 p u b lic a tio n o f th e s e tw o a rtic le s in th e N e w Y o rk 8 T im e s in th e fa ll o f 1 9 7 2 to in v e s tig a te th e 9 p o te n tia l h e a lth e ffe c ts o f a s b e s to s in b ra ke 10 linings, correct? 11 A. I've testified th a t I don't know 12 th a t we even knew about this article. 13 Q. Okay. 14 But you do know that there were no 15 s te p s ta ke n in th a t tim e fra m e to in v e s tig a te th e 16 potential health effects of asbestos brake 17 linings, correct? 18 A. I don't kn o w w h e th e r there w ere or 19 there w eren't. I know th a t -- I don't know 20 w hether w e even knew about this particular 21 article. T hat's w h a t your question w as about. 22 Q . A n d yo u 'v e b een in v o lv e d in 23 asbestos litigation fo r V olksw agen fo r how m any 24 years now, sir? 25 A. Since 1983. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 145 1 Q. Okay. 2 And in that tw enty-six year period 3 nobody has ever told you that Volkswagen took any 4 action to investigate the potential health 5 effects o f asbestos brake linings following the 6 publication o f these articles in the New Y ork 7 T im es in the fall o f 1972, correct? 8 MR. W INTERMAN: Assum es facts not 9 in evidence. 10 Lacks foundation. 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. Now, you would agree that 13 V olksw agen o f A m erica knew by the mid 14 nineteen-seventies that m echanics should exercise 15 caution when working around asbestos, correct? 16 A. No, sir. 17 Q. You don't agree with that? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. I will show you your deposition 20 transcript from the second day o f your deposition 21 in the G askill case. T his one is dated March 22 12th, 2009. It's ju st a few m onths ago. Look on 23 Page 400, the question begins on Line 6 and your 24 answ er extends through Line 17, sir. 25 A. W here did it start, sir? 400 you 146 1 said? 2 Q. Yes, sir. It's Page 400 I think 3 in the bottom right beginning at Line 6. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. And -- 6 MR. WINTERMAN: Just one second, 7 Counsel. 8 MR. STUEMKE: Sure. 9 MR. W INTERM AN: I just want to see 10 w hat you're referring to. Okay. 11 MR. STUEMKE: Okay. 12 13 BY MR. STUEM KE: 14 Q. So, sir, fo u r and a half m onths 15 ago you were asked a question beginning on Page 16 400, Line 6: By the mid nineteen-seventies am I 17 correct that Volksw agen knew that m echanics 18 needed to exercise caution when working around 19 asbestos? And then you clarified the question. 20 Y ou asked by the mid nineteen-seventies 21 Volksw agen o f Am erica knew that m echanics should 22 exercise caution w hen working around asbestos. 23 Is that correct? 24 A. Yes, sir, that's what it says. 25 Q. Okay. And w hat was your response, 147 1 sir? 2 A. That w as the general information 3 th a t w a s included in certain pu b lica tio ns back 4 then. 5 Q. Okay. T h a n k you, sir. 6 MR. W INTERM AN: Move to strike the 7 line o f questioning on the grounds that it's not 8 im peachm ent. Im proper use o f deposition. 9 Q. And, sir, you'd agree that 10 Volkswagen of Am erica w as first concerned that 11 breathing a sb e sto s m ay resu lt in se riou s d iseases 12 such as a sb e sto sis o r ca n ce r in the late 13 nineteen-seventies, correct? 14 A. W e are aw are o f it, th a t's w hen we 15 firs t becam e aw are o f it, yes, in the m id to late 16 seventies. 17 Q. Okay. 18 Now, at any point prior to 1990 19 Volkswagen o f Am erica never w ent to any medical 20 library to research w hether there were health 21 hazards associated with brakes, correct? 22 A. None that I know of, that's 23 correct. 24 Q. S im ilarly th e y n e ve r w e n t to a 25 medical library to research w hether there were 148 1 health hazards associated with 2 asbestos-containing clutches or exhaust manifold 3 gaskets or any other asbestos components, 4 correct? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. V olksw agen o f A m erica is not aware 7 that V olksw agen o f G erm any ever did that research 8 either, correct? 9 A. I don't know what research 10 V olksw agen o f G erm any has done. 11 Q. Volkswagen o f Am erica never asked 12 a doctor whether people could be at risk from 13 w orking w ith its products, correct? 14 MR. W IN T E R M A N : Y our question is 15 vague and ambiguous. 16 MR. STUEMKE: Okay. 17 18 BY MR. STUEMKE: 19 Q. In light o f the objection, sir, 20 did V olksw agen o f A m erica ever ask a doctor 21 whether its custom ers could be at risk from 22 working with the asbestos-containing components 23 of Volkswagen vehicles? 24 A. That question has been asked, yes. 25 Q. Okay. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 149 1 W hen was that question first 2 asked? 3 A. T h a t I w ould know of, pro b a b ly in 4 the late nineties. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A n d w a s th a t qu e stion aske d in the 7 context o f litigation, sir? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Prior to Volkswagen getting sued 10 for allegedly exposing an individual to asbestos, 11 it's true that Volksw agen never asked a doctor 12 w hether its custom ers could be harm ed from the 13 a sb e sto s-co n ta in in g co m p o n e n ts in its vehicles, 14 correct? 15 A. T ha t w ould be prior to 1983. I'm 16 not aw are o f th a t happening, yes, sir. 17 Q. And before Volkswagen stopped 18 selling asbestos-containing vehicles and 19 asbestos-containing replacem ent parts for those 20 vehicles, it never asked a doctor w hether its 21 custom ers could be harm ed by working with those 22 asbestos-containing com ponents, correct? 23 A. I don't know of anyone asking a 24 doctor a t that time. 25 Q. Okay. 150 1 And if somebody at Volkswagen had, 2 you would expect that you would know that because 3 you've been involved in this litigation for 4 twenty-six years for Volkswagen, correct? 5 A. Well, not necessarily. Someone 6 could have asked a doctor that without me knowing 7 it back then, yes. 8 Q. Okay, but you're not aware o f it? 9 A. I'm not aware o f anyone doing it. 10 Q. Okay. 11 You're not aware of anybody at 12 V olksw agen o f Am erica ever asking anyone at 13 V olksw agen o f G erm any if there w as a health 14 hazard associated with the repair o f Volkswagen 15 vehicles, correct? 16 A. That's not correct. 17 Q. Okay. 18 W hen was the first time you 19 understand that question w as asked, sir? 20 A. It w ould be som e tim e in the 21 eighties. 22 Q. And w hat was the context in which 23 that question was asked, sir? 24 A. It w ould be in the context o f the 25 first case w hen it cam e in alleging that it was 151 1 asked. 2 Q. And what were you told? 3 A. There was no relationship between 4 the types and application o f asbestos in our 5 vehicles and the diseases that were mentioned. 6 Q. Okay. And who asked that 7 question? 8 A. I did. 9 Q. Okay. 10 You asked the question of somebody 11 at Volkswagen of Germany whether there was any 12 danger or health hazard associated with the 13 repair of Volkswagen vehicles? 14 A. No, there was a discussion between 15 m yself and one of the engineers concerning the 16 a spects o f the case and the claim s being m ade and 17 I asked a question as to what, you know, what was 18 the validity o f any o f these claim s being made. 19 Q. Okay. 20 Now, I'm going to hand you again, 21 sir, the tran scrip t o f your deposition taken a 22 year ago also in the G askill case in this office 23 on Page 87, sir. 24 A. I have it. 25 Q. Now, a year ago you w ere asked if 152 1 you ever asked anybody at Volkswagen of Germany 2 whether there was any danger or health hazard 3 associated with the repair o f Volkswagen 4 vehicles, correct? 5 MR. WINTERMAN: Object to the 6 question. 7 Lacks foundation. 8 Calls for speculation. 9 A. I was asked whether there was a 10 health hazard associated with the removal of 11 insulation o f asbestos contained in brakes. 12 Q. You see the question that begins 13 on Page 87 at Line 5? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. The question was asked o f you: Am 16 I correct that you never asked anybody at 17 Volksw agen o f G erm any w hether there was any 18 danger or health hazard associated w ith the 19 repair o f Volksw agen vehicles, correct? 20 A. That is correct. 21 Q. Okay. And w hat was your answer 22 then? 23 A. I don't rem em ber asking that 24 specific question, no. 25 Q. Okay. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 153 1 And then you were also asked: Am 2 I correct you never asked anybody at Volkswagen 3 G erm any about w hether there w as a health hazard 4 associated with the removal and installation of 5 asbestos-containing brakes, correct? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. Okay. 8 And what was your answer a year 9 ago? 10 A. No, I never asked that question. 11 Q. Okay. 12 You were also asked: Am I correct 13 that you never asked anyone at Volkswagen of 14 G erm any about w hether asbestos w as potentially 15 dangerous to human health? 16 MR. W INTERM AN: Excuse me, that's 17 im proper use of a deposition. This is not 18 im peachm ent. 19 Q. Do you see that question, sir? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay. 22 And what was your answer a year 23 ago? 24 A. No, I n e ve r asked anyone in 25 G erm any that, sir. 154 1 Q. Okay. 2 And you ju s t told this jury today 3 th a t you did a sk Volksw agen o f G erm any those 4 q u e stio n s in 1983 in the co n te xt o f the firs t 5 lawsuit, correct? 6 A. No, I said I asked, I asked one of 7 the engineers w hether there w as any connection 8 b etw een the cla im s m ade in th a t p a rticu la r case 9 and the diseases that were connected to it and he 10 told me no. 11 Q. Okay. 12 And you th in k som ehow that's 13 different from asking som ebody at Volkswagen of 14 G erm any about w hether asbestos w as potentially 15 dangerous to human health? 16 MR. W IN TERM AN: Don't answ er the 17 question. 18 That's argum entative. 19 (D irection not to answ er the 20 question.) 21 MR. STUEM KE: That's not a proper 22 basis to instruct him not to answer, Counsel -- 23 MR. W IN T E R M A N : I'm instructing -- 24 MR. S T U E M K E : -- and you kn o w it. 25 MR. W IN T E R M A N : I'm instructing him 155 1 not to answer. That's, that's com pletely im proper 2 questioning, Counsel. 3 M R . S T U E M K E : T h a t is, th a t is not 4 attorney/client. It's not an appropriate basis to 5 in stru ct him n o t to a n sw e r and you kn o w it. 6 MR. W IN TER M AN : M ove on. 7 MR. STU E M K E : W hat's, what, w hat 8 provision do you rely upon for instructing him not 9 to answer? 10 MR. W INTERM AN: Do you know what, 11 I've given you m y g rounds. If you d o n 't like it, 12 take me to court. 13 MR. STUEM KE: W ell, that's w hat 14 w e're going to do. 15 MR. W IN TE R M A N : Fine. Okay. 16 M R. S T U E M K E : P u t it on th e list. 17 MR. W IN T E R M A N : Okay. Put it on 18 th e list. 19 MR. STU EM KE : All right. 20 21 BY MR. STUEMKE: 22 Q. Can I have that back, sir? 23 A. (Com plies.) 24 MR. W IN TER M AN : I w ould invite you 25 to p h ra se th e qu e stion in a w a y th a t's p ro p e r and 156 1 th e n I'll let him a n sw e r it. 2 MR. STUEMKE: Okay. 3 4 BY MR. STUEMKE: 5 Q. So it's your testim ony to this 6 ju ry th a t yo u a ske d an e n g in e e r in G e rm a n y 7 w hether there w as any connection between the 8 c la im s m ade in th a t p a rtic u la r ca se a n d the 9 diseases that were connected to it and he told 10 you no? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. Okay. 13 But you never asked him w hether 14 asbestos w as potentially dangerous to human 15 health? 16 MR. W IN TERM AN: That's 17 argum entative. 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. You never asked anybody at 20 Volksw agen G erm any w hether there w as a health 21 hazard associated with the rem oval and 22 installation of asbestos-containing brakes? 23 A. T hat specific question, that's 24 correct. 25 Q. Okay. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 157 1 And you never asked anybody at 2 Volkswagen of Germany whether there was a danger 3 or health hazard associated with the repair of 4 Volkswagen vehicles, correct? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. Okay. 7 So the only question you ever 8 asked was about that one particular lawsuit, 9 correct? 10 A. It was in a discussion concerning 11 that particular lawsuit. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. You had asked me had I ever asked 14 and I said, yes. 15 Q. Okay. 16 Volkswagen o f Am erica although it 17 had been sued -- 18 Well, strike that. 19 W hat w as the allegation in that 20 first lawsuit in 1983, sir? W hat w as the type of 21 exposure to asbestos that w as alleged against 22 Volkswagen? 23 A. I don't recall at this moment. 24 Q. Do you recall if it was a brake 25 case? 158 1 A. I don't recall. 2 Q. Okay. 3 But Volkswagen of Am erica upon 4 being nam ed in a lawsuit fo r -- 5 W ell, strike that. 6 Let's back up a second. 7 This first lawsuit in 1983 that 8 you've referred to , it related to asbestos 9 exposure, correct? 10 A. It w a s the first asbestos case, 11 yes. 12 Q. Okay. 13 And it w as a case alleging 14 personal injuries or death resulting from 15 asbestos exposure, correct? 16 A. I believe it w a s fo r personal 17 injury, yes. 18 Q. Okay. 19 And as I understand your 20 testimony, Volkswagen o f Am erica upon being sued 21 for personal injuries arising from asbestos 22 exposure asked Volkswagen of Germany about that 23 particular case only, correct? 24 A. Well, that was the only case we 25 were discussing. 159 1 Q. Right. 2 A. That was the first case that came 3 in a nd an e n g in e e r w a s a ssig n e d to th e ca s e to 4 a ssist us and I asked him the question. It w as 5 the first case w e'd ever had. 6 Q. Okay. 7 So you asked an engineer that 8 question, but you didn't ask a doctor, correct? 9 A. Not a doctor, no. An engineer. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. I believe I said I asked an 12 engineer. 13 Q. Now, is an e n gineer the type of 14 person you w ould ordinarily turn to fo r a health 15 or disease question? 16 A. I w ould ask him because he w as an 17 e n g in e e r sp e cia liz in g in th a t p a rtic u la r a re a so 18 he should be fully inform ed as to w hat the item 19 w as and how it perform ed. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A nd you didn't ask him w hether 22 o ther custom ers of Volksw agen m ight also be at 23 risk, did you? 24 A. No, I asked him concerning the 25 a s b e s to s a p p lic a tio n s in th e c a r and th e c la im s 160 1 being made in that particular case and how it 2 would apply to the diseases that he was talking 3 about. 4 Q. But your concern -- 5 Strike that. 6 Volksw agen didn't change its 7 policy regarding the selling of 8 asbestos-containing vehicles or 9 asbestos-containing replacement parts based on 10 having been sued for asbestos exposure for 11 personal injuries, correct? 12 A. You're talking about after 13 receiving the first case in 1983 with that 14 allegation if we would change our sales policies? 15 Q. Because o f that allegation, yes, 16 sir. 17 A. In that case, no. 18 Q. And -- now, you'd agree that 19 Volksw agen o f Am erica had the m oney and the 20 resources to conduct any safety testing that it 21 felt w as necessary to determ ine w hether people 22 w orking with its asbestos-containing brakes were 23 at risk for disease, correct? 24 A. I don't know about the question of 25 money, but Volkswagen of Am erica was a marketing HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 161 1 organization, and for any inform ation concerning 2 the perform ance o f any of the products that we 3 were im porting and distributing, we would go back 4 to the m anufacturer o f the product. W e w ouldn't 5 have any independent knowledge o f system s or 6 anything else as to how to test things o r analyze 7 anything. 8 MR. STUEMKE: I object as 9 non-responsive. 10 Q . Sir, listen clo se ly to the 11 question: I'm ju s t asking w h e th er Volksw agen o f 12 A m e rica had the m on e y and the reso u rce s to 13 conduct any safety testing that it felt was 14 necessary to determ ine w h e th e r people w orking 15 with its asbestos-containing brakes were at risk 16 fo r disease? 17 MR. W INTERM AN: That's asked and 18 answered. 19 Q. Correct? 20 A. I said the question of the -- 21 T H E W IT N E S S : I'm sorry, are you 22 finished, C raig? 23 MR. W INTERM AN: Yeah. 24 A. The question o f the money w as not 25 a question, but the resources would include the 162 1 ability to even know what to do to analyze or who 2 to engage or w hat to do about it and that w as out 3 o f our area. W e were a marketing organization 4 importing and selling vehicles and for something 5 concerning the performance of the product, we 6 would go back to the m anufacturer or supplier of 7 that product. 8 MR. STUEMKE: Objection. 9 N o n -re s p o n s iv e . 10 11 BY MR. STUEMKE: 12 Q. The question is the -- you had the 13 resources and the money to do whatever marketing 14 you wanted, correct? 15 MR. W INTERMAN: Asked and answered. 16 A. No. 17 Q. You didn't have enough m oney and 18 resources to do the safety testing that you felt 19 w as appropriate? 20 MR. W INTERM AN: That's a different 21 question. It's argum entative. 22 A. I've already explained m oney I 23 don't think was the question at that time 24 although that w as a dow nturn in the m arket in 25 1972, but the matter had to do with resources and 163 1 we would not know what, if anything, would even 2 have to be done or could be done to investigate 3 something like that, and again, we would go back 4 to the person who supplied us with the product if 5 we had a question concerning any o f their 6 performance attributes of that particular product 7 and that would be Volksw agen in Germany. 8 MR. FINBERG: Excuse me, for 9 clarification, I thought the question related to 10 1983 and the answ er is addressing -- 11 MR. STUEM KE: No, it was general. 12 MR. FINBERG: Am I confused? 13 MR. STUEMKE: Yes. 14 15 BY MR. STUEMKE: 16 Q. So as I understand what you're 17 saying now, Volksw agen had enough m oney to do 18 testing if it felt it w as necessary, but you're 19 saying they didn't have the knowledge base to 20 know what testing was necessary, is that right? 21 MR. W INTERM AN: Misstates, 22 m ischaracterizes testim ony. 23 A. No, you asked me did we have the 24 m oney and the resources, and I said I don't 25 question w hether we had the m oney because I don't 164 1 know what money would be necessary, although we 2 were probably a profitable com pany at that 3 particular point in tim e, but that wasn't the 4 question. 5 The question was resources. You 6 have to understand w hat it is you w ant to do, why 7 you want to do it and w here you would even go to 8 get the inform ation to accom plish it, and we 9 didn't have anybody in the com pany that would be 10 com petent enough or involved or inform ed enough 11 to do that particular item. 12 Again, we would go back to the 13 m anufacturer of the product or the supplier of 14 the product if we had a question concerning their 15 perform ance attributes o f anything in any way 16 w hatsoever. 17 Q. VW had enough money to pay an 18 expert to do testing if it felt it w as necessary, 19 correct? 20 MR. W IN TER M AN : The question is 21 vague and am biguous. 22 A. That would depend on the testing. 23 You'd have to determ ine what it is you want to do 24 or is needed to be done in ord e r to put together 25 an appropriate testing program and the analysis HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 165 1 o f it and the pu b lica tio n o f it, w h a te v e r w as 2 necessary. T hose are the resources th a t you're 3 talking about and we did not have those. 4 Q. Okay. 5 Volksw agen o f G erm any would have 6 those resources? 7 A. I would think the m anufacturer, 8 the supplier o f the product would have such 9 s u fficie n t inform ation in o rd e r to a d vice us w h a t 10 type o f te stin g w ould be necessary and how it 11 w ould do it. 12 Q. And you never asked Volksw agen of 13 G erm any w hether they had conducted testing to 14 find out w hether w orking with asbestos-containing 15 b ra ke s in V o lksw a g e n ve h ic le s w a s safe, co rre ct? 16 A. I never asked that specific 17 question, that's correct. 18 Q. Okay. You never -- 19 Strike that. 20 Volkswagen o f Am erica never 21 conducted any testing to determ ine w hether there 22 w as any release o f asbestos fibers from working 23 with its brake products, correct? 24 A. T hat's correct. W e never did that 25 testing. 166 1 Q. O r w hether its clutches or w hether 2 its gaskets or any of the other asbestos 3 com ponents o f its products, correct? 4 A. All right, w hen you say it, you're 5 talking about the products that Volkswagen of 6 Am erica im ported, sold and distributed, not 7 anybody else's brakes, clutches or anything of 8 that nature? 9 Q. W ell, I w as talking specifically 10 about w hat Volksw agen sold, but they didn't test 11 anybody else's products either, correct? 12 A. No, but you said its products. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. I assum e you're talking about only 15 the brakes and the clutches that we actually 16 handled and sold through our organization, not 17 the other brakes and clutches that were being 18 sold by other people. 19 Q. That's correct. 20 A. For our cars. 21 Q. Right. 22 A. Okay. 23 Q. B u t the global answ er is that 24 Volksw agen didn't do any testing of their own 25 asbestos com ponents or anybody else's asbestos 167 1 components either, correct? 2 A. W ell, globally Volksw agen which is 3 Volksw agen G roup of Am erica is not a global 4 company. W e're in the U n ited States, C anada and 5 the islands. That's us so we don't globally do 6 anything. W e work within the North Am erican 7 region. 8 Q. Okay. 9 And I used an imprecise word. You 10 to o k me literally w hen I said globally. I didn't 11 mean it that way. I apologize for the question. 12 Just to kind o f sum this up: 13 Volksw agen didn't do any testing o f th e ir own 14 asbestos com ponents or anybody else's asbestos 15 com ponents at any tim e, correct? 16 A. Volkswagen of America, group of 17 Am erica, that's correct. 18 Q. Okay. 19 And likewise Volkswagen G roup of 20 Am erica didn't ask Volksw agen o f G erm any w hether 21 Volksw agen o f G erm any had done that testing 22 either, correct? 23 A. I don't know if they ever asked 24 them that. 25 Q. Okay. 168 1 And that's true even after 2 Volksw agen found out th a t breathing asbestos 3 co u ld c a u s e c a n c e r in th e late 4 nineteen-seventies, correct? 5 MR. W IN T E R M A N : I'm sorry, C ounsel, 6 hang on one second. I've got to catch up with 7 you. 8 A. Volksw agen learned of the possible 9 d a n g e rs o f a s b e s to s in th e m id to late s e v e n tie s . 10 W hat w e did then w as pass that 11 inform ation on to the factory. That w as our 12 function then as the m arket representatives here 13 in the United States. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. W e did not do any independent 16 te s tin g . 17 Q. A nd w hen you passed th a t 18 inform ation, th a t breathing asbestos could cause 19 cancer on to the factory, you didn't ask the 20 factory Volksw agen of G erm any w hether they 21 already knew that, correct? 22 MR. W IN TE R M A N : M isstates, 23 m ischaracterizes his testim ony. 24 A. W e passed the inform ation on as it 25 w a s b e in g g e n e ra lly d is c u s s e d in th e a u to m o tiv e HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 169 1 in d u stry here in the United States. T h a t w a s the 2 extent o f w hat we did a t th a t tim e. 3 Q. Okay. 4 And you didn't ask Volksw agen o f 5 G erm any w hat they knew about that, correct? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Okay. 8 Volksw agen o f G erm any didn't 9 v o lu n te e r to you th a t it had been know n in 10 G erm any since the nineteen-thirties that asbestos 11 exposure caused cancer, did they? 12 MR. W INTERM AN: Assum es facts not 13 in evidence. 14 Lacks foundation. 15 A. They did not pass any inform ation 16 like that on to me, no. 17 Q. Okay. 18 And after Volkswagen found out 19 th a t b re a th in g a sb e sto s could cause cancer, it 20 didn't check to see if there were any loose 21 a sb e sto s fib e rs in th e b o xe s o f re p la ce m e n t 22 linings th a t it sold, correct? 23 MR. W INTERM AN: M isstates and 24 m ischaracterizes his testimony. 25 He didn't say it could cause 170 1 cancer. 2 MR. STU EM KE : He did actually -- 3 MR. W IN T E R M A N : No, he said it may. 4 M R. S T U E M K E : -- e a rlie r in th e 5 deposition. 6 MR. W IN T E R M A N : He said it may, 7 may. There is a difference, Counsel. 8 MR. STU E M K E : T here is not an 9 appre cia b le difference, sir. 10 11 BY MR. STUEMKE: 12 Q. You can a n sw e r the q uestion, sir. 13 A. O h, I'm sorry. I th o u g h t you 14 gentlem en w ere still pondering w h a t you w ere 15 g oing to say. 16 W e did not do any testing. W e 17 already talked about that. 18 Q. Now, you said that once you found 19 out th a t breathing asbestos could be dangerous, 20 you passed that know ledge on to the factory, 21 correct? 22 A. Yes, w e passed the inform ation 23 th a t w a s g e n e ra lly b e in g d iscu sse d in th e pu b lic 24 a n d in th e a u to m o tiv e p e rio d ic a ls in th e late 25 se ve n ties on to the fa cto ry so they'd be 171 1 informed. 2 Q. Okay, but you never passed that 3 information on to the customer who could 4 potentially be exposed to asbestos from your 5 products, did you? 6 A. W e did not pass anything on to the 7 customer. The information that we were passing 8 on to the factory was inform ation that w as out in 9 the public, the articles in the New Y ork Times, 10 the articles that were in the autom otive 11 publications and other publications at the tim e 12 concerning asbestos in schools and public 13 buildings, things of that nature. So the public 14 w as aware o f asbestos being, being in the 15 buildings even where they had their children 16 every day. 17 Q. But the public wasn't necessarily 18 aware that the Volksw agen Rabbit they bought down 19 at the V W dealership had asbestos com ponents in 20 it, were they? 21 A. No, they m ay not know it had 22 asbestos although the fact that asbestos was in 23 brake linings w as som ething that was generally 24 known from way back in the forties. 25 Q. Okay. 172 1 W ell, generally known not because 2 Volksw agen ever made any effort to tell anybody 3 about that, correct? 4 A . Volksw agen never m ade any special 5 efforts, that's correct. 6 Q. V olksw agen never included a 7 s ta te m e n t to th a t e ffe c t in a n y o w n e r's m anual 8 fo r any car it ever sold, did they? 9 A. I don't know of any. 10 Q. Now, in th e m id n in e te e n -e ig h tie s 11 the replacem ent brake linings th a t Volksw agen 12 sold started to have w arnings on them about 13 asbestos, correct? 14 A. S o m e o f th e m did. 15 Q. O kay. Not all o f th em ? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. Okay. 18 So -- well, let's b ack up a 19 second. 20 V olksw agen n e ve r asked its 21 suppliers to put a w arning about asbestos on the 22 boxes of replacem ent linings, did they? 23 A. N ot th a t I know of. 24 Q. Okay. 25 A n d so even in th e m id HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 173 1 nineteen-eighties when some suppliers started to 2 put warnings on the boxes of replacem ent linings, 3 Volkswagen continued to sell other boxes of 4 replacem ent brake linings that didn't have 5 warnings on them , correct? 6 A. Yes, we did. 7 Q. Okay. 8 Volksw agen continued to sell 9 replacem ent clutch facings that had asbestos in 10 them w ithout w arnings on th e m , co rre ct? 11 A. Yes, I don't recall any warnings 12 on clutch facing boxes. 13 Q. V olksw agen continued to sell 14 asbestos-containing gaskets as replacement parts 15 without warnings on them , correct? 16 A. Y e s, sir. 17 Q. N ow , it's true that after 18 V olksw agen learned in the late nineteen-seventies 19 that breathing asbestos could potentially cause 20 ca n ce r, it continued to sell ve h icle s with 21 asbestos components for another ten years, 22 correct? 23 A. W hat do you mean by after 24 Volkswagen learned? W hat's the learning context? 25 Q. W ell, you testified earlier, sir, 174 1 th a t by the mid, by the late n ineteen-seventies 2 Volksw agen w as aware th a t asbestos could 3 p o te n tia lly ca u se c a n c e r in h um ans, co rre ct? 4 A. That's w hat w as being talked about 5 in th e public, th a t's co rre ct. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. It w a s in p u b lica tio n s and 8 national newspapers, things of that nature. 9 Q. Sure. A nd that's w hat Volkswagen 10 understood, correct? 11 A. W ell, that's w hat everybody 12 u n d ersto o d , sir. 13 Q. Okay. 14 W ell, you're not saying th a t the 15 P la in tiff in th is ca se had th a t kn o w ledge, are 16 you? 17 A. I would certainly thin k the 18 P laintiff w ould know th a t asbestos th a t w as being 19 rem oved from public buildings and things of that 20 nature, he w ould be aware of that, and he may 21 h ave been in so m e o f th o se p u b lic b u ild in g s and 22 breathed th a t asbestos, as w e all did b a ck at 23 that time. 24 Q. Okay. 25 So it's V olksw agen's position that 175 1 everybody knew that asbestos was dangerous so you 2 didn't have to tell anybody? 3 A. No, that was not your question. 4 Your question concerned who knew 5 about it back in the late seventies, and all I'm 6 saying is that the general public knew about it 7 back in the late seventies since it was being 8 talked about and it was being removed from public 9 buildings and other areas back at that time as a 10 type of asbestos used to insulate buildings and 11 ceilings and beams and things of that nature. 12 Q. How many members of the general 13 public have you polled in order to come to your 14 determ ination that the general public knew about 15 that at that tim e? 16 A . I haven't polled anybody, sir. 17 Q. Okay. 18 So in your opinion they should 19 have, but you had never asked anybody if they 20 did, is that right? 21 A . No, I, I was there and I was 22 involved in meetings in my town and recall what 23 was going on concerning public buildings. 24 I even rem em ber being in 25 courthouses where sections of the courthouse were 176 1 draped off with plastic sheeting because they 2 w ere doing a sb e sto s a b a te m e n t in those buildings. 3 It w as a general m atter o f knowledge back then 4 th a t there w a s a sb e sto s used in insulation in 5 buildings and that they were going to either 6 en ca psu la te it o r rem ove it. 7 Q. Okay. 8 W ell, there is a part o f your 9 experience o f life that you learned that, 10 correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. 13 You can't testify as to what 14 anybody else m ay have learned at that time 15 because you've never sought to find that out, 16 have you? 17 MR. W INTERM AN: That's vague and 18 am biguous. 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. Okay. 21 So when you're saying that the 22 general public knew this, you're assum ing that 23 the general p ublic knew it because you knew it, 24 correct? 25 A. I am assum ing that the general HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 177 1 public knew it because it w as a m atter of public 2 record and w as really being talked about back 3 then and actions were being taken to rem ove 4 asbestos from public buildings and other items 5 w here it w as used as an insulation material. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. It was not a secret back then. 8 Q. Okay. 9 You say it w asn't a secret back 10 then, Volksw agen never to o k any actions to tell 11 its custom ers that V olksw agens contained 12 asbestos, you know, the sam e asbestos that's 13 being rem oved from buildings and anything else, 14 they never m entioned that, did they? 15 MR. W INTERM AN: Assum es facts not 16 in evid e n ce. 17 Lacks foundation. 18 A. It w as not the sam e asbestos 19 application nor my understanding w as it the sam e 20 asbestos th a t w as being sprayed inside buildings 21 fo r insulation purposes. 22 CO U R T REPO RTER: Inside buildings? 23 (No response.) 24 25 BY MR. STUEMKE: 178 1 Q. Now, you never -- V olksw agen never 2 did any research to find out w h e th er those 3 d iffe re n ce s m eant anything, did they? 4 M R. W IN T E R M A N : T he qu e stion is 5 vague and am biguous. 6 A. I don't know w h a t you m ean by 7 that. 8 Q. Okay. 9 W ell, yo u 're saying, well, it's 10 n o t th e s a m e a s b e s to s th a t w a s s p ra y e d in 11 buildings fo r insulation and fo r other things. 12 V o lksw a g e n in th a t tim e fra m e 13 didn't do any research to find out w h e th er th a t 14 d iffe re n ce m atte re d a t all, did th e y? 15 A. V olksw agen -- 16 MR. W IN T E R M A N : It's va g u e and 17 am biguous. 18 T H E W IT N E S S : I'm sorry. 19 A. V olksw agen G rou p o f A m e rica did 20 not do any research at th a t tim e, that's correct. 21 22 BY MR. STUEMKE: 23 Q. Okay. 24 A nd V olksw agen G roup of A m erica 25 didn't ask anybody else if they'd done th a t 179 1 research either, did they? 2 A. I can't say w hether we did or we 3 didn't back then. W e m ay have discussed it with 4 the factory, but I was not party to any of those 5 discussions if they took place. 6 Q. Okay. 7 Volkswagen Group o f Am erica can't 8 tell this jury that they ever asked anybody 9 whether there was a meaningful difference between 10 the asbestos in its cars and the asbestos that 11 w as having to be rem oved from public buildings 12 because it w as hazardous, can they? 13 A. I'm sorry, could you repeat the 14 question back? 15 Q. Yes. 16 Volkswagen Group o f Am erica can't 17 tell this ju ry that they ever asked anybody 18 w hether there w as a m eaningful difference between 19 the asbestos in its cars and the asbestos that 20 w as having to be rem oved from public buildings 21 because it w as hazardous, can they? 22 A. I can't point to any particular 23 item, but generally speaking in the autom otive 24 industry the inform ation w as that the asbestos in 25 the applications that we were doing with the 180 1 asbestos in the brake, clutches and gaskets was 2 not the same asbestos, and obviously not the same 3 application as w as being done in public 4 buildings. 5 Q. Okay. 6 MR. STUEM KE: I'm going to object 7 as non-responsive, to the non-responsive portion. 8 Q. Now, you've indicated that 9 Volkswagen never told its custom ers that there 10 w as a potential risk from any o f the asbestos 11 com ponents in its cars, correct? 12 MR. W INTERM AN: That's asked and 13 answered. 14 A. That we never ever told the public 15 that there w as -- I'm sorry? 16 Q. You've indicated that Volkswagen 17 never told its custom ers that there was a 18 potential risk from any o f the asbestos 19 com ponents in its cars, correct? 20 MR. W INTERMAN: Asked and answered. 21 A. We never went out and specifically 22 addressed our custom ers to that extent. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. That is correct. 25 Q. That w asn't in sales and m arketing HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 181 1 m aterials of V olksw agen, w a s it? 2 A . N o t in sa le s a n d m arke tin g 3 m aterials, no. 4 Q. Okay. 5 It w a s n 't in an o w n e r's m anual or 6 any other docum ent th a t cam e with the car when 7 th e c u s to m e r p u rc h a s e d it, w a s it? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. Okay. 10 Now, did Volksw agen at least tell 11 its c u s to m e rs th a t th e re w a s a s b e s to s in th e 12 cars? 13 A. Som e of our service publications 14 had th a t in it. 15 Q. Okay. 16 N ow , in te rm s o f d o cu m e n ts or 17 inform ation that a custom er w ould get when they 18 purchased a car, did V olksw agen ever tell its 19 c u s to m e r th a t th e re w a s even a sb e sto s in th e ca r 20 at all? 21 A. No. 22 Q. So even if the custom er had the 23 general knowledge you referred to that asbestos 24 could be dangerous, V olksw agen didn't even 25 provide them the inform ation to let them know 182 1 that there w as asbestos in th e ir vehicles, is 2 that right? 3 A. We did not give them any direct 4 inform ation about asbestos in the ve h icle s nor 5 the application or the type of asbestos and how 6 it w as used, u tilize d in the ve h icle s them selves. 7 A different type of asbestos from what the 8 general public knew concerning insulation 9 materials and buildings. 10 Q. Okay. 11 Well, you didn't give them any 12 indirect inform ation either, did you? 13 A. No. 14 Q. So it's true that Volkswagen of 15 Am erica continued to sell cars with asbestos 16 com ponents fo r ten years after it learned that 17 breathing asbestos could cause cancer, correct? 18 MR. W INTERMAN: Asked and answered. 19 A. The last vehicles that we sold 20 that had any type o f asbestos that we've talked 21 about here was about 1989. 22 Q. So at least ten years? 23 A. Well, the general public and the 24 autom obile industry learned about it in the mid 25 to late seventies. 183 1 Q. Okay. 2 And in that tim e fram e V olksw agen 3 never warned any of the customers that there was 4 a potential risk from asbestos, correct? 5 A. The asbestos in our ca rs? 6 Q. Y e s, sir. 7 A. N o, we did not. 8 Q. Okay. 9 And in that tim e fram e V olksw agen 10 never told the custom er that they were buying an 11 asbestos-containing product, did they? 12 A. No, did not. 13 Q. Okay. 14 And in that ten years you'd agree 15 that Volkswagen probably sold about a million 16 cars to the Am erican public? 17 A. Could have, yes. 18 Q. Now, you'd agree that if 19 V olksw agen had w anted to include a w arning about 20 the risks o f asbestos exposure, they could have 21 included a printed warning on the brake linings 22 themselves, correct? 23 A. If th e y had, if th e y had felt it 24 was necessary to include a warning, they could 25 have, yes. 184 1 Q. Okay. 2 And if, if they had w anted to 3 include a warning relating to the hazards of 4 asbestos dust from brakes, they could have 5 included that warning on the metal part o f the 6 brake shoe? 7 A. If they felt there was a need to 8 do that or there was a danger, they could have, 9 yes. Certainly would have if they thought there 10 w as a danger. 11 Q. Okay. 12 Now, you mentioned something about 13 service manuals. You're talking about the 14 official repair manuals for VW cars, correct? 15 A. Some o f the manuals, yes. 16 Q. Okay. 17 MR. STUEM KE: Let's m ark this as 18 next. 19 COURT REPORTER: (Complies.) 20 (Whereupon, multi-page document 21 entitled GTI, Golf, and Jetta Official Factory 22 Repair Manual 1985, 1986 Including GLI, Gasoline, 23 Diesel, and Turbo Diesel, not bearing Bates 24 stam ps, is received and m arked as Plaintiffs' 25 Exhibit 7 for Identification.) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 185 1 C O U R T REP O R TE R : N um ber 7. 2 MR. W INTERMAN: Thank you. 3 A. I have it. 4 5 BY MR. STUEMKE: 6 Q. Okay. 7 You've been handed Exhibit 7. Can 8 you identify that for the record, please. 9 A. Appears to be excerpts from a 10 repair manual for the Volkswagen, excuse me, GTI, 11 G olf and Jetta. 12 Q. Okay. 13 And it's called the Official 14 Factory Repair Manual, correct? 15 A. T hat's correct. T hat's w hat it 16 says. 17 Q. And this is a m anual that was 18 provided to dealerships for their service 19 requirements for vehicles, correct? 20 A. This is one o f the items they had, 21 yes. 22 Q. Okay. 23 And this one w a s published in 24 1986, correct? 25 A. This one is from N ovem ber o f '86, 186 1 yes. 2 Q. Okay. 3 And you see th a t at the top of the 4 second to last page it indicates th a t copies of 5 the m anual may be purchased from authorized 6 Volksw agen dealers, selected book sellers and 7 autom otive accessories and parts dealers, 8 correct? 9 A. That's correct or directly from 10 the publisher. 11 Q. Okay. 12 And so this w as inform ation that 13 Volksw agen will m ake available fo r its custom ers 14 if th e y paid fo r it, co rre ct? 15 A. T his is inform ation th a t R obert 16 B entley made available to the public for 17 purchase, but it w as also supplied and purchased 18 by us fo r sale through Volksw agen dealers. 19 Q. Okay. 20 And who obtained the copyright for 21 this publication, the Official Factory R epair 22 M anual fo r these Volkswagen cars? 23 A. W ho obtained the copyright? I 24 don't know. 25 Q. Y es, sir. 187 1 A. I'll lo o k in h e re and see. Is 2 there a co p yrig h t on it som eplace? 3 Q. Look at the second to last page. 4 T h e sa m e p age w e w e re ju s t lo o kin g at, sir. 5 A. Volksw agen U nited States service 6 publications is the copyright. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A n d in th is official fa cto ry 9 repair m anual -- 10 W ell, strike that. Let's back up 11 a second. 12 T his is not som ething th a t w as 13 provided to custom ers when they purchased the 14 vehicle, correct? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. Okay. 17 In th is if, if th e y h ad paid extra 18 to get this, they w ould learn -- on the last page 19 of this exhibit they w ould learn th a t friction 20 m aterials such as brake and clutch linings or 21 brake pads may contain asbestos fibers, correct? 22 A. That's w hat the last page of this 23 particular exhibit says. I don't know if this 24 is -- you're representing th a t th is is a page 25 from the original m anual? 188 1 Q. Yes, sir. 2 A. I only have p ages -- th e re is 3 p ro b a b ly seve ra l hu n dre d p ages in th e w h o le 4 m anual. 5 Q. Sure. 6 A. T ha t's w h a t it says on there. 7 Q. A nd you don't have any reason to 8 d isp u te th a t th is s a m e la n g u ag e w a s in th e 9 original repair m anual, do you ? 10 A. I d o n 't know. I'm ju s t saying 11 y o u 're re p re se n ting th is is a page from th is 12 particular repair m anual. 13 Q. Yes. 14 A. Do you have the w hole repair 15 manual here? 16 Q. N o t w ith me, no. 17 A. I d o n 't k n o w w h a t it is. T h e p a g e 18 d o e sn 't identify -- th e re is nothing on th is page 19 that you have here that says anything that I can 20 see a bout a Golf, a Jetta or a G TI. It's ju s t a 21 page from a m anual. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A nd this page from the m anual has 24 at the to p right a large box with the w ord 25 w a rn in g a t th e to p o f it, c o rre c t? HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 189 1 A. T hat's correct. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A n d th a t w arning relates to 4 a s b e s to s be in g c o n ta in e d in fric tio n m aterial 5 such as brake and clutch linings or brake pads, 6 c o rre c t? 7 A. Yes, th a t's w h a t it says. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A nd you know th a t inform ation w as 10 in c lu d e d in th e s e o fficial fa c to ry re p a ir m an u a ls 11 by Volksw agen, correct? 12 A. Yes, it w a s no s e cre t that, th a t 13 brake -- 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. -- lin in g s a nd c lu tc h e s had it in 16 it, h o w e v e r, a t th e tim e fo r th e '85, '8 6 m a n u a l 17 it w o u ld not be in th e b ra ke linings. It m ig ht 18 be in th e clu tch linings. It w o u ld not be in th e 19 brake linings. 20 Q. Okay. 21 T he w a rning states th a t -- well, 22 it states do not create dust by grinding, sanding 23 o r by cle a n in g w ith c o m p re sse d air, correct? 24 A. T ha t's w h a t it says, yes. 25 Q. Okay. 190 1 It states avoid breathing asbestos 2 fibers and asbestos dust, correct? 3 A. That's w hat it says, yes. 4 Q. It states th a t breathing asbestos 5 m ay re su lt in se rio u s d ise a se s such a s a sb e sto sis 6 or cancer, correct? 7 A. You're reading exactly w hat it 8 says there, sir, yes. 9 Q. And it states th a t it m ay cause 10 severe injury and death, correct? 11 A. It says it may, yes, that's w hat 12 it says. 13 Q. A n d o b vio u sly th is is all 14 info rm a tio n that, th a t V o lksw a g e n kn e w in 1986, 15 correct? 16 A. This particular, the verbiage for 17 this warning? 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. N o, it's n o t o u r w a rning , sir. 20 Q. W ell, you, you hold a copyright on 21 this document, correct? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. A n d you sold th is d o cu m e n t in your 24 dealerships, correct? 25 A. It w a s sold in o u r d e a le rsh ip s and 191 1 it w as also sold at bookstores, accessory stores 2 and m an y o th e r p la ce s o r y o u could g e t it 3 directly from the publisher. 4 Q. Sure. 5 So you're n o t telling this jury 6 that Volksw agen didn't know about this warning, 7 are you? 8 A. We knew the w arning w as in the 9 m anual, but we did not put the w arning in the 10 m a n u a l. 11 Q. Right. 12 And at the same tim e that this 13 w arning w a s in V o lksw a g e n 's m anual, it w a s not in 14 Volksw agen's owners manuals, correct? 15 A. That's correct. This is a Bentley 16 m anual and it w a s in the Bentley m anual, but it 17 w a s n o t in the m anual published by V olksw agen. 18 Q. W ell, you say the Bentley m anual. 19 It's copyrighted Volksw agen, correct? 20 A. The technical content is from 21 Volkswagen, that's correct. 22 Q. O kay. 23 Sir, did V o lksw a g e n e ve r convey to 24 the purchasers of Volkswagen cars that they could 25 get fatal diseases from working with asbestos 192 1 brakes, asbestos clutches or asbestos gaskets 2 that w ere included in those vehicles? 3 A. No, sir, we have no evidence to 4 that effect. 5 MR. STU EM KE : I'll object to the 6 non-responsive portion. 7 8 BY MR. STUEMKE: 9 Q. Now, when was the first tim e that 10 anyone asserted a workers' compensation claim for 11 injuries from asbestos exposure against 12 V olksw agen? 13 A. I believe it w a s late eighties, 14 e arly nineties, som ew here in that area. 15 Q. W hat's the basis for that belief, 16 sir? 17 A. Well, there were, there were two 18 workers' com pensation claim s that we received 19 over the years. 20 Q. Okay. 21 Now, you recall, o f course, giving 22 your deposition te stim o n y in the G askill case 23 four months ago, correct? 24 A. I recall giving a deposition in 25 the Gaskill case. I think there were two of HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 193 1 them. 2 MR. W INTERM AN: Counsel, can we 3 just correct the record? I believe you indicated 4 in one of your earlier questions, a num ber of your 5 e arlier q u estions in fact, that the G askill depo 6 was taken approxim ately a year ago and you said a 7 year ago. The date that's on that transcript is 8 incorrect and you ought to know that. That was 9 taken in '09, not '08. 10 MR. STUEMKE: Well, for clarity 11 sake and I tried to be clear when referring to the 12 tim e because there are two different transcripts, 13 I've referred to the first session occurring on 14 July 14th, 2008 and the second session occurring 15 on March 12th, 2009. 16 Are you telling me those dates are 17 incorrect. 18 MR. W INTERM AN: I believe the 2008 19 date is incorrect, but we'll -- I'll double-check 20 that just so you know. I think there was an error 21 in the transcript. 22 MR. STUEMKE: Okay. 23 Just can you give me a ballpark of 24 w hen you th in k it was. 25 MR. W INTERMAN: You know, I just 194 1 don't recall o ff the top o f my head, but I will 2 let you know. Okay. And it's ju s t a 3 typographical error on the part o f the reporter 4 and if you read the new spapers you'll see th a t one 5 o f those typographical errors on a date like that 6 c o s t som e la w firm a hu n dre d m illion d o lla rs in a 7 contract ju s t recently, but anyway go ahead. 8 MR. STUEMKE: Okay. 9 Q . In any event, M r. C a m ero n , you 10 recall that you were deposed on two separate 11 o cca sio n s in the G a skill case, co rre ct? 12 A. I've already said that, yes. 13 Q. Okay. 14 D o you recall about w h a t m onth it 15 was that the first session occurred? 16 A. No. It w as -- no, I don't. I 17 know one o f them was, one o f them w as here and 18 one o f th e m w a s in N ew Jersey. 19 Q. Do you recall about how m uch tim e 20 lapsed between those two depositions? 21 A. No. 22 Q. D o you recall in w h a t y e a r the 23 first deposition occurred? 24 A. No, I don't. They were recently, 25 but I couldn't give you specific dates. 195 1 Q. Okay. 2 MR. STU EM KE: I appreciate the 3 clarification. O bviously that's news to me. 4 Q. Did you review yo u r tran scrip t 5 from those deposition sessions, sir? 6 A. I w ould have. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A nd other than the date apparently 9 being incorrect fo r the first session, w e re there 10 any other changes that you had to m ake to that 11 d e p o s itio n ? 12 A. I d on't recall. N orm ally you put 13 an e rra ta sh e e t o r w h a te v e r you guys call it -- 14 Q. Right. 15 A. -- at the end of it w ith changes. 16 I do n 't recall. 17 Q. Okay. Y ou don't recall -- 18 A. It w ould have been given to 19 co u n s e l a n d th e y w o u ld h a ve ta k e n c a re o f it. 20 Q. Y ou do n 't recall having subm itted 21 an errata sheet fo r either session of the G askill 22 deposition, do you? 23 A. I don't know one w a y or the other 24 at th is point. 25 Q. Okay. 196 1 Referring to the deposition 2 session in M arch o f 2 009 assum ing th a t date is 3 correct, it w as the second session, you were 4 asked questions about workers' compensation 5 claim s against Volkswagen. 6 Do you recall that? 7 A. Specifically, no, I don't. 8 Q. W ell -- 9 A. I m ay have been. I'm not going to 10 dispute it. Y ou have the transcript. 11 Q. Sure. 12 A. It says w hat it says. 13 Q. T urning yo u r attention to Page 14 377, the highlighted portion, sir. 15 MR. W INTERM AN: Thank you. 16 Thank you, Counsel. 17 MR. STUEMKE: Sure. 18 19 BY MR. STUEMKE: 20 Q. Do you see th a t a t P a g e 3 77 o f the 21 Gaskill deposition transcript you testified that 22 the two w orkers' com pensation claim s relating to 23 asbestos exposure were from the late seventies to 24 m id eighties, som ew here in th a t area? 25 A. Yes, that's w hat I said. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 197 1 Q. Okay. 2 And is it your testim ony today 3 that that was incorrect? 4 A. The late seventies is I believe 5 incorrect. The eighties should be correct. 6 Q. And there are docum ents relating 7 to those workers' compensation claims, correct? 8 A. Y es, they've been produced in 9 other cases as I recall. 10 Q. Okay. 11 And you testified earlier in this 12 deposition when I w as asking you about area of 13 inquiry Num ber 15, and for the record area o f 14 inquiry Num ber 15 is facts, w itnesses and 15 docum ents regarding workers' com pensation claims, 16 if any, made against Defendant fo r injuries 17 and/or death arising out o f exposure to asbestos 18 at D efendant's m anufacturing and/or authorized 19 dealer repair facilities, I asked you w hether 20 docum ents existed responsive to that area o f 21 inquiry and you said that there were not? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. Do you recall that? 24 Now, what documents exist 25 regarding the workers' compensation claims that 198 1 you've ju st testified happened som e tim e in the 2 nineteen-eighties? 3 A. There were copies of the 4 compensation claims, whatever they were. I 5 received them from our risk m anagement people. 6 Q. Okay. 7 And you testified, and we can find 8 this if we need to, but you testified in your 9 Gaskill deposition that Herzfeld & Rubin 10 Volksw agen's law firm w here we are today has 11 those docum ents. 12 Do you recall that? 13 A. I don't recall that being the 14 testim ony, but if that's w hat it says, that's 15 w hat it is, and they are the ones that would have 16 those docum ents. I passed them on to them. 17 Q. Okay. 18 Now, how is it that Volksw agen 19 doesn't have docum ents regarding workers' 20 com pensation claim s responsive to area o f inquiry 21 Number 15 when they do have documents regarding 22 w orkers' com pensation claim s that you've ju st 23 testified about? 24 A. Because they don't apply to that. 25 Y ou asked a different question. You asked for 199 1 workers' com pensation claim s concerning our 2 m anufacturing to and our authorized dealer repair 3 facilities and neither one of the claim s involved 4 the m anufacturing because we don't m anufacture, 5 we assem ble, but it didn't involve our assem bly 6 plant nor did it involve any retail facility. So 7 we don't have docum ents responsive to the 8 question that you asked. 9 Q. W hat w as the context of the 10 a lleged a sb e sto s exposure in those w orkers' 11 compensation cases, sir? 12 A. One of them concerned the 13 warehouse at one of our distributors and the 14 o th er concerned insulation m aterial in the 15 roofing o f a stam ping p lant in V irginia. 16 Q. Okay. 17 H ow w as the person working at the 18 warehouse allegedly exposed to asbestos fibers? 19 A. W ell, my recollection, my 20 recollection is they claim ed he w as working with 21 returned brake parts at the warehouse. 22 Q. And when did that claim come in? 23 A. B o y, one o f them w a s in the -- one 24 of them -- the actual claim itself or a t the time 25 of the exposure? W hat are we talking about here? 200 1 Q. The claim itself. 2 A. O ne of th e claim s I believe cam e 3 in in th e m id to late e ighties. T h e other, th e 4 actu al claim its e lf d id n 't com e in until ninety 5 som ething. 6 Q. A nd for the -- 7 A. B ut it concerned e xposure at an 8 earlier tim e. 9 Q. A nd for the person w orking at the 10 w arehouse, w hen did th a t claim com e in? 11 A. I, I'd h a ve to re fe r to th e cla im 12 to be exact. I d o n 't -- I can't, I can't see the 13 docum ents. I do n 't recall exactly w h a t date -- 14 you're looking fo r specific dates. I don't have 15 th e d o cu m e n ts in fro n t o f m e here, but it did not 16 con ce rn a retail facility. It did not concern a 17 m anufacturing plant -- 18 C O u Rt R EPO R TER : M anufacturing 19 w hat? 20 T H E W IT N E S S : M a n u fa ctu rin g plant. 21 A. W hich is w h a t you w e re talking 22 about here -- 23 24 BY MR. STUEMKE: 25 Q. Okay. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 201 1 A. -- in the request. 2 Q. So as I understand it, this claim 3 from the warehouse w orker involved alleged 4 exposure from working with returned brake parts? 5 A. That's my recollection. 6 Q. W hat was his job, sir? 7 A. I don't recall. 8 Q. I assum e it w as a man. W as it a 9 man? 10 A. I believe it was, but I don't 11 recall the specifics o f the claim. 12 Q. Okay. 13 And w hat disease did this 14 individual have? 15 A. I don't recall. Again, I would 16 refer to the files. I did not spend a lot o f 17 tim e reviewing the files. That was a number of 18 years ago those claim s were produced. 19 Q. Okay. 20 Well, they haven't been produced 21 to us, so that's w hy I'm asking about them. 22 A. You didn't ask for them. 23 Q. How m any years did this individual 24 who worked at the warehouse w ork there with these 25 brake parts? 202 1 A. I don't know, sir. Again, I don't 2 recall the sp e cifics o f the claim . I'd have to 3 refer to the file to give you any, any detailed 4 inform ation concerning them. 5 Q. Do you know w hether this 6 individual had any other exposure to asbestos? 7 A. I don't recall any of the 8 specifics of either one of the claim s. 9 Q. Do you recall the disposition of 10 either of the claim s, w hether Volksw agen w as 11 ordered to pay money? 12 A. Again, on the details of the 13 claim s I w ould refer to the files. T hat's w hat I 14 received from our risk m anagem ent people and I 15 passed it on to counsel. 16 Q. Okay. 17 MR. STUEM KE: W ell, given status of 18 docum ent production, specifically non-production 19 in o u r vie w , w e c a n n o t c o n clu d e th is d e p osition 20 today, and we'll have to continue it to another 21 date. 22 T h a t being said, b ased on w h a t is 23 available to P laintiffs' counsel, I do not 24 presently have further questions fo r the witness. 25 I anticipate having a large num ber of further 203 1 questions fo r the w itness upon the production of 2 docum ents. 3 MR. W IN T E R M A N : Let's go o ff the 4 record for a m om ent. 5 TH E V ID E O G R APH ER : G oing off the 6 record. 7 The tim e is a p proxim ately 1:43 p.m. 8 (W h e re u p o n , a sh o rt recess is 9 taken.) 10 T H E V ID E O G R A P H E R : S tand by, 11 please. 12 W e are now back on the record. 13 The tim e is a p proxim ately 1:49. 14 This concludes -- 15 MR. W IN TER M AN : (Indicating.) 16 T H E V ID E O G R A P H E R : I'm sorry, you 17 have a com m ent? 18 MR. W INTERM AN: Yeah. 19 So as I u n d e rs ta n d it, C o u n se l, 20 w h a t you're telling us is th a t you're adjourning 21 th e d e p o sitio n , th a t's th e te c h n ic a l w o rd in 22 C alifornia anyway, until you resolve any of the 23 issues regarding w hat you believe are additional 24 docum ents you're entitled to, and if you're 25 entitled to them then you're going to -- you're 204 1 going to reconvene this session and finish up the 2 depo, is th a t correct? 3 MR. S TU EM KE : I'm not sure that 4 a d jo u rn is te ch n ica lly th e co rre c t term . I'll 5 accept your representation, but yes, I anticipate 6 resum ing the deposition when we have gotten 7 docum ents produced we feel we're entitled to. 8 MR. W IN TERM AN: Okay. So we're not 9 concluding it? 10 MR. STUEM KE: That's correct. 11 MR. W INTERM AN: Okay. 12 MR. STUEMKE: Yes. 13 MR. W INTERM AN: I ju s t w ant to make 14 sure it's clear on the record that we're not 15 co n clu d in g it. Okay. 16 So we'll term inate fo r today. And 17 I guess counsel and I will discuss w hatever 18 outstanding issues there are and see w hat we're 19 going to do. 20 MR. STUEM KE: Let me ju s t for the 21 record attach this as an exhibit. I guess we're 22 up to Exhibit 8 that w as produced today. 23 Do you have the other ones? 24 MR. W INTERM AN: There were other 25 ones. You don't have them ? HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 205 1 MR. STU E M K E : I don't have hard 2 copies. 3 MR. W INTERM AN: I thought I gave 4 them to you. 5 MR. S T U E M K E : No, all th a t I w as 6 given w as this (indicating). 7 MR. W INTERM AN: Hang on ju st one 8 second. I think I have them for you. 9 MR. STU EM KE : Yeah, I don't have 10 hard copies so. 11 M R. W IN T E R M A N : H ere is, h e re is 12 the letter and the docum ent. You can have that 13 all. T ha t's a copy, and then you'll have th a t 14 other one. 15 MR. STUEMKE: Okay. 16 MR. W INTERM AN: Okay. 17 MR. S T U E M K E : Let's attach as 18 Exhibit 8 a cover letter including four enclosures 19 dated July 29th, 2009 from Mr. W interm an to my 20 C alifornia office, and as the next exhibit a 1987 21 authorized Volksw agen dealer directory excerpt. 22 C O U R T REPO R TER : (C om plies.) 23 (W hereupon, m ulti-page docum ent on 24 H erzfeld & Rubin letterhead, dated July 29th, 25 2009, not bearing Bates stam ps, is received and 206 1 marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 8 for 2 Identification.) 3 (W hereupon, m ulti-page docum ent 4 entitled Authorized Volkswagen Dealer Directory, 5 North and Central Am erica, Decem ber 1987, not 6 bearing B ates stamps, is received and m arked as 7 Plaintiffs' Exhibit 9 for Identification.) 8 C O U R T R EP O R TE R : N um bers 8 and 9. 9 MR. W INTERM AN: W hich one is 8? 10 The letter? 11 COURT REPORTER: Yes. 12 MR. W INTERM AN: And the attachm ents 13 and then 9 is '87. 14 Okay. 15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Are you 16 com pleted now? 17 MR. STUEM KE: Yes, we are done for 18 the day, but we are not done with the deposition. 19 THE VIDEO G RAPHER: This is the end 20 o f V ideotape N um ber 3 in the deposition o f R obert 21 C am eron. 22 This is Volum e 1 of the deposition. 23 T his is the conclusion o f Volum e 1 to be continued 24 a t a later date. 25 The tim e is a p proxim ately 1:51 p.m. 207 1 And we are now going off the 2 record. 3 (Time noted: 1:51 p.m.) 4 5/ 6/ 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 208 1 STATE OF ) Pg. of Pgs. 2 ) ss.: 3 COUNTY OF ) 4 I wish to make the following changes, for 5 the following reasons: 6 PAGE LINE 7 CHANGE: 8 REASON: 9 CHANGE: 10 REASON: 11 CHANGE: 12 REASON: 13 CHANGE: 14 REASON: 15 CHANGE: 16 REASON: 17 CHANGE: 18 REASON: 19 CHANGE: 20 REASON: 21 CHANGE: 22 REASON: 23 CHANGE: 24 REASON: 25 HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR 209 1 PAGE LINE 2 ___________CHANGE: 3 R E A S O N :____ 4 ___________CHANGE: 5 R E A S O N :____ 6 ___________CHANGE: 7 R E A S O N :____ 8 ___________CHANGE: 9 R E A S O N :____ 10 ___________CHANGE: 11 R E A S O N :____ 12 ___________CHANGE: 13 R E A S O N :____ 14 ___________CHANGE: 15 R E A S O N :____ 16 ___________CHANGE: 17 R E A S O N :____ 18 ___________CHANGE: 19 R E A S O N :____ 20 21 22 I, ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR., have read 23 the foregoing deposition and hereby affix my 24 signature that same is true and correct, except as 25 noted above. 210 1 2 3 ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 4 STATE O F ______________ ) 5 COUNTY O F _____________ ) 6 7 8 Before m e ,________________________ , on 9 this day personally appearing ROBERT P. CAMERON, 10 JR., known to me to be the person whose name is 11 subscribed to the foregoing instrument and 12 acknowledged to me that they executed the same for 13 the purposes and consideration therein expressed. 14 Given under my hand and seal o f office 15 th is _____ day o f ______________2009. 16 17 18 Subscribed and sworn to before me 19 th is _____ day o f ______________2009. 20 21 22 23 24 25 211 1 C ERT IF ICA T E 2 STATE O F ______________ ) ) :ss. 3 COUNTY O F _____________ ) 4 I, RICH GERMOSEN, a Certified Court 5 Reporter, (License No. 30XI00184700), Certified 6 Realtime Court Reporter-NJ, (License No. 7 30XR00016800), NCRA Certified Realtime Reporter, 8 Certified LiveNote Reporter, and Notary Public 9 within and for the States of New York and New 10 Jersey, do hereby certify: 11 That ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR., the 12 witness whose deposition is hereinbefore set forth, 13 having been duly sworn by a Notary Public of the 14 States of New York and New Jersey, and that such 15 deposition is a true record of the testimony of said 16 witness. 17 I further certify that I am not related 18 to any of the parties to this action by blood or 19 marriage, and that I am in no way interested in the 20 outcome of this matter. 21 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set 22 my hand this____ day of_______________ 2009. 23 24 RICH GERMOSEN, CCR, CRCR, RPR, CRR, CLR 25 LICENSE NO. 30XI00184700 LICENSE NO. 30XR00016800 212 1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA 2 FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES 3 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- x 4 LAWRENCE BOMAN and SHIRLEY BOMAN, 5 Plaintiffs, 6 -against- Case No. 7 ALFA LAVAL, INC. (sued BC 405823 8 individually and as 9 successor-in-interest to THE 10 DELAVAL SEPARATOR COMPANY and 11 SHARPLES CORPORATION), et al., 12 Defendants. 13 ----------------------------------------x 14 15 16 17 18 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATION 19 DEPOSITION OF:ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 2 0 Friday, July 31,2009 21 22 23 24 25 HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 213 1 I, RICH GERMOSEN, a Certified Court 2 Reporter, (License No. 30XI00184700), Certified 3 Realtime Court Reporter-NJ, (License No. 4 30XR00016800), NCRA Registered Professional 5 Reporter, NCRA Certified Realtime Reporter, 6 Certified LiveNote Reporter, and Notary Public 7 within and for the States of New York and New 8 Jersey, do hereby certify: 9 That the witness, ROBERT P. CAMERON, 10 JR., was duly sworn by the officer and that the 11 transcript of the oral deposition is a true record 12 of the testimony given by the witness; 13 That the deposition transcript was 14 submitted on to the witness or 15 to the attorney for the witness for examination, 16 signature and return to me by 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 214 1 That the amount of time used by each 2 party at the deposition is as follows: 3 Mr. Stuemke - (02:54:05) 4 Mr. Winterman - (00:00:00) 5 Mr. Finberg - (00:00:00) 6 Mr. Haddad - (00:00:00) 7 Ms. Clayton - (00:00:00) 8 Mr. Hwang - (00:00:00) 9 Mr. Remillard - (00:00:00) 10 Mr. Lister - (00:00:00) 11 Ms. Clingo - (00:00:00) 12 Mr. Pieper - (00:00:00) 13 Mr. White - (00:00:00) 14 Ms. Golden - (00:00:00) 15 Mr. Davis - (00:00:00) 16 Ms. Vu - (00:00:00) 17 Mr. Tinkham - (00:00:00) 18 Mr. Ameele - (00:00:00) 19 Ms. Meyers - (00:00:00) 20 Ms. Buty - (00:00:00) 21 Mr. Murray - (00:00:00) 22 Ms. Johnson - (00:00:00) 23 Ms. Shetabi - (00:00:00) 24 Ms. Rothberg - (00:00:00) 25 215 1 That pursuant to information given to 2 the deposition officer at the time said testimony 3 was taken, the following includes counsel for all 4 parties of record: 5 6 A P P E A R A N C E S: 7 8 SIMON, EDDINS & GREENSTONE, L.L.P. 9 BY: JAY E. STUEMKE, ESQ. 10 3232 McKinney Avenue 11 Suite 610 12 Dallas, Texas 75204 13 (214) 276.7680 / (214) 276.7699 (FAX) 14 jstuemke@seglaw.com 15 Attorneys for the Plaintiffs 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 216 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: (CONT'D.) 2 3 4 HERZFELD & RUBIN, L.L.P. 5 BY: CRAIG L. WINTERMAN, ESQ. 6 1925 Century Park East 7 Suite 600 8 Los Angeles, California 90067 9 (310) 553.0451 / (310) 553.0648 (FAX) 10 cwinterman@hrllp-law.com 11 Attorneys for the Defendant, 12 Volkswagen of America, Inc. and 13 Robert P. Cameron, Jr. 14 15 CHARLES FINBERG, ESQ., P.L.L.C. 16 266 East Shore North 17 Grand Isle, Vermont 05458 18 (802) 372.5175 19 cfinberg@gmail.com 20 Attorneys for the Defendant, 21 Volkswagen of America, Inc. and 22 Robert P. Cameron, Jr. 23 24 25 HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 217 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: (C O N T'D .) 2 3 4 A D A M S NYE T R A P A N I BEC H T, L.L.P. 5 BY: G E O R G E A. H AD D AD , ESQ., 6 (appearing telephonically) 7 222 Kearny Street 8 7th Floor 9 San Francisco, C alifornia 94108 10 (415) 982.8955 / (415) 982.2042 (FAX) 11 ghaddad@ adam snye.com 12 A ttorneys for the D efendants, 13 W hirlpool C orporation and M aytag C orporation 14 15 H O W A R D R O M E M A R TIN & R ID LEY, L.L.P. 16 BY: T R IN A M. C LA Y TO N , ESQ., 17 (appearing telephonically) 18 1775 W oodside Road 19 S uite 200 20 R e d w o o d City, C a lifo rn ia 94061 21 (650) 356.7715 / (650) 364.5297 (FAX) 22 tclayton@ hrm rlaw .com 23 A ttorneys for the Defendant, 24 IM O Industries, Inc. 25 219 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: (CONT'D.) 2 3 4 PALMIERI, TYLER, WIENER, WILHELM & WALDRON, L.L.P. 5 BY: JOHN R. LISTER, ESQ., 6 (appearing telephonically) 7 2603 Main Street 8 Suite 1300 9 Irvine, California 92614 10 (949) 851.7285 / (949) 757.1225 (FAX) 11 jlister@ptwww.com 12 Attorneys for the Defendant, 13 Cla-Val Company 14 15 SELMAN BREITMAN, L.L.P. 16 BY: JENNIFER A. CLINGO, ESQ., 17 (appearing telephonically) 18 11766 Wilshire Boulevard 19 Suite 600 20 Los Angeles, California 90025 21 (310) 689.7042 / (310) 473.2525 (FAX) 22 jclingo@selmanbreitman.com 23 Attorneys for the Defendant, 24 Pep Boys 25 218 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: (CONT'D.) 2 3 4 PERKINS COIE, L.L.P. 5 BY: STEVEN K. HWANG , ESQ., 6 (appearing telephonically) 7 1888 Century Park East 8 Suite 1700 9 Los Angeles, California 90067-1721 10 (310) 788.3217 / (310) 843.1275 (FAX) 11 skhwang@perkinscoie.com 12 Attorneys for the Defendant, 13 Honeywell International, Inc. 14 15 LYNBERG & WATKINS 16 BY: THOMAS W. REMILLARD, ESQ., 17 (appearing telephonically) 18 888 South Figueroa Street 19 16th Floor 20 Los Angeles, California 90017 21 (213) 625.8700 / (213) 892.2763 (FAX) 22 tremillard@lynberg.com 23 Attorneys for the Defendant, 24 Hill Brothers Chemical Company 25 220 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: (C O N T'D .) 2 3 4 POND NORTH, L.L.P. 5 BY: TIM O TH Y C. PIEPER, ESQ., 6 (appearing telephonically) 7 350 South Grand Avenue 8 Suite 2850 9 Los Angeles, California 90017 10 (213) 617.6170 / (213) 623.3594 (FAX) 11 tpieper@ pondnorth.com 12 A ttorneys fo r the Defendants, 13 Sears, Roebuck and Co., Genuine Parts Company, 14 and W estern Auto Supply Company 15 16 DeHAY & ELLISTON, L.L.P. 17 BY: PAUL CH R ISTO PH ER W HITE, ESQ., 18 (appearing telephonically) 19 800 W est 6th Street 20 Suite 788 21 Los Angeles, California 90017 22 (213) 271.2724 / (213) 271.2730 (FAX) 23 pwhite@ dehay.com 24 Attorneys for the Defendant, 25 Pneumo Abex, L.L.P. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 221 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: (CONT'D.) 2 3 4 JACKSON & WALLACE, L.L.P. 5 BY: CATHERINE E. GOLDEN, ESQ., 6 (appearing telephonically) 7 55 Francisco Street 8 6th Floor 9 San Francisco, California 94133 10 (415) 982.6300 / (415) 982.6700 (FAX) 11 cgolden@jacksonwallace.com 12 Attorneys for the Defendants, 13 Dap, Inc. and Cummins, Inc. 14 15 HASSARD BONNINGTON, L.L.P. 16 BY: MARK C. DAVIS, ESQ., 17 (appearing telephonically) 18 Two Embarcadero Center 19 Suite 1800 20 San Francisco, California 94111-3993 21 (415) 288.9800 / (415) 288.9802 (FAX) 22 mcd@hassard.com 23 Attorneys for the Defendant, 24 John Crane, Inc. 25 222 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: (CONT'D.) 2 3 4 BOOTH, MITCHEL & STRANGE, L.L.P. 5 BY: JACKIE K. VU, ESQ., 6 (appearing telephonically) 7 707 Wilshire Boulevard 8 Suite 4450 9 Los Angeles, California 90017 10 (213) 738.0100 / (213) 380.3308 (FAX) 11 jkvu@boothmitchel.com 12 Attorneys for the Defendant, 13 Borg-Warner Corporation 14 15 POOLE & SHAFFERY, L.L.P. 16 BY: BRIAN R. TINKHAM, ESQ., 17 (appearing telephonically) 18 445 South Figueroa Street, Suite 2520 19 Los Angeles, California 90071 20 (213) 439.5390 / (213) 439.0183 (FAX) 21 btinkham@pooleshaffery.com 22 Attorneys for the Defendant, 23 PTO Sales Corporation 24 25 223 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: (CO NT'D.) 2 3 4 FOLEY & MANSFIELD, P.L.L.P. 5 BY: KEITH M. AM EELE, ESQ., 6 (appearing telephonically) 7 150 South Los Robles Avenue 8 Suite 400 9 Pasadena, California 91101 10 (626) 744.9359 / (626) 744.1702 (FAX) 11 kam eele@ foleym ansfield.com 12 Attorneys for the Defendants, 13 Nacco M aterials Handling Group, Inc. and 14 Yale M aterials Handling Corp. 15 16 M cKENNA LONG & ALDRIDGE, L.L.P. 17 BY: LESA M. M EYERS, ESQ., 18 (appearing telephonically) 19 444 South Flower Street 20 Los Angeles, California 90071 21 (213) 243.6122 / (213) 243.6330 (FAX) 22 lm eyers@ m ckennalong.com 23 Attorneys for the Defendants, 24 Dana Companies, L.L.C.; 25 Union Carbide Corporation; Kelsey-Hayes Company 224 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: (CONT'D.) 2 3 4 BUTY & CURLIANO, L.L.P. 5 BY: MADELINE L. BUTY, ESQ., 6 (appearing telephonically) 7 555 City Center 8 555 12th Street 9 Suite 1280 10 Oakland, California 94607 11 (510) 267.3000 / (510) 267.0117 (FAX) 12 mlb@butycurliano.com 13 Attorneys for the Defendant, 14 PACCAR, Inc. 15 16 PRINDLE, DECKER & AMARO, L.L.P. 17 BY: JAMES G. MURRAY, ESQ., 18 (appearing telephonically) 19 310 Golden Shore, 4th Floor 20 Long Beach, California 90802 21 (562) 436.3946 / (562) 495.0564 (FAX) 22 jmurray@pdalaw.com 23 Attorneys for the Defendant, 24 Edelbrock Corp. 25 HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROBERT P. CAMERON, JR. 225 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: (CONT'D.) 2 3 4 BRYDON HUGO & PARKER 5 BY: JOSETTE D. JOHNSON, ESQ., 6 (appearing telephonically) 7 -and- 8 BY: PEGAH SHETABI, ESQ. 9 135 Main Street, 20th Floor 10 San Francisco, California 94105 11 (415) 808.0300 / (415) 808.0333 (FAX) 12 jjohnson@bhplaw.com / pshetabi@bhplaw.com 13 Attorneys for the Defendants, 14 Luk Clutch Systems, L.L.C. and 15 Schaeffler Group USA, Inc. 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 226 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: (CONT'D.) 2 3 4 WALSWORTH, FRANKLIN, BEVINS & McCALL, L.L.P. 5 BY: STEPHANIE ROTHBERG , ESQ., 6 (appearing telephonically) 7 One City Boulevard West 8 Fifth Floor 9 Orange, California 92868 i (714) 634.2522 / (714) 634.0686 (FAX) 11 srothberg@ wfbm.com 12 Attorneys for the Defendants, 13 Bondex International, Inc.; RPM, Inc.; 14 RPM International, Inc.; Hamilton Materials, Inc.; 15 Dowman Products, Inc.; CRA Trailers, Inc.; 16 Utility Trailer Manufacturing Company; 17 Jerguson Gage & Valve Co.; Clark-Reliance 18 Corporation, as the claimed successor-in-interest 19 to Jerguson Gage & Valve Co. 20 21 22 23 24 25 227 1 That $ is the deposition 2 officer's charaes to the for preparina 3 the original deposition transcript and any copies of 4 exhibits; 5 I further certify that I am neither 6 counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the 7 parties or attorneys in the action in which this 8 proceeding was taken, and further that I am not 9 financially or otherwise interested in the outcome 10 of the action. 11 Certified to me this of 12 , 2009. 13 14 15 16 17 RICH GERMOSEN, CCR, CRCR, RPR, CRR, CLR 18 LICENSE NO. 30XI00184700 LICENSE NO. 30XR00016800 19 HG Litigation Services 2501 Oak Lawn Avenue 20 Suite 600 Dallas, Texas 75219 21 (214) 521.1188 / (214) 521.1034 (FAX) 1.888.656.DEPO 22 23 24 25 HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM EXHIBIT E VOLKSWAGEN To Technical Occupational Safety From Safety Chemistry Braunschweig Your reference Your message from Our reference [redacted] X House extension [redacted] Internal notice Notice number Date 08/17/1987 [illegible] Page 1 Labeling of asbestos-containing substances The following asbestos-containing (drum) brake linings are processed for customer service requirements in Braunschweig: Lining [Drawing number) 431 609 565 J 431 609 565 F 171 609 565 J 171 609 565 F 531 609 565 171 609 565 A 331 609 565 A 113 609 265 C 477 609 265 (without drawing) (without drawing) Manufacturer Pasgids 554 GG Pagid 555 EF Jurid 139 FF ABPA 553 GG Jurid 136 EE Jurid 118 FF Jurid 118 FF Textar TE 18 GG Jurid 334 PGG ZSB Brake Shoe complete 443 609 537 431 609 537 Q/538 171 609 537 G 171 609 537 F 531 609 537 ZSB 171 609 537 A ZSB 331 609 537 A 113 609 537 S no more drawings available The pads are assembled in the factory to brake shoes and shipped to the service center warehouse Kassel. These assemblies are currently not labeled as "asbestos-containing products" according to the Hazardous Substances Ordinance, Annex I, 2.5. No warning and safety instructions are given to the user (after-sales service or private purchaser) who may be exposed to asbestos exposure. The decision on the marking/non-marking of the brake shoes is to be made by Braunschweig's production. Form AV 87 7 85 M a te ria l no. 2060 - 2 CONFIDENTIAL t abbies* PLA IN TIFFS EXHIBIT 26 Clark vs. VWAG (Ferraro) - I 00000964 VOLKSWAGEN To From Your reference Your message from Our reference [redacted] Internal notice Notice number House extension [redacted] Date Page 08/17/1987 2 Asbestos-containing products may also be incorporated into other assemblies. The delimitation between marking requiring and not marking asbestos-containing products (assemblies) should be carried out according to uniform measures for the area of the VW AG. We therefore ask you to coordinate with the affected departments on the further procedure for labeling. [redacted] Form AV 87 7 85 M a terial no. 2060 CONFIDENTIAL Clark vs. VWAG (Ferraro) - i 00000965 EXHIBIT F Page 1 IN T H E C IR C U IT C O U R T O F T H E 11T H JU D IC IA L C IR C U IT IN A N D FO R M IA M I-D A D E C O U N T Y , F L O R ID A A SB E ST O S D IV ISIO N R O BE R T G. C LA R K and A L A N A C LA R K , h is w ife, P la in tiffs, C ase N o .: 1 4 -0 2 7 9 8 5 v. B O R G W A R N E R C O R P O R A T IO N , e t a l., D efen dan ts. V id e o T rial P re se rv a tio n D e p o s itio n o f D r. J u erg en A lb ers V o lu m e 1 T u e sd a y , A p r il 9 , 2 0 1 9 , a t 1 0 :4 9 a.m . T a k e n at: K IN G & SP A L D IN G 1 2 5 O ld B ro a d Street London EC 2N 1A R U N IT E D K IN G D O M C ou rt R eporter: D eird ra Jordan Page 3 1 A P P E A R A N C E S (C ontinued) 2 3 A ppearing for D efendant Federal-M ogul (by 4 teleconference): 5 H A W K IN S PA RN ELL & Y O U N G LLP 6 303 Peachtree Street, N E , 7 Suite 4000 8 A tlanta, G A 30308-3243 9 Tel: (404) 614-7598 10 Em ail: flopez@ hpylaw .com 11 BY: FRANCES LOPEZ 12 13 A lso in attendance: 14 B R EN D A G O D FR EY , V olksw agen G roup of 15 A m erica 16 K A TH I STO C K , G erm an Language Interpreter 17 W EN D Y V IN ER , V ideographer 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2 1 A PPEA RA N CE S 2 3 A p pearing for the Plaintiffs: 4 TH E FE R R A R O L A W F IR M 5 600 B rickell A venue, 6 Suite 3800 7 M iam i, FL 33131 8 Tel: (3 0 5 ) 547-9 8 0 0 9 E m ail: daj@ ferraro law .co m 10 BY: D A V ID A . JA G O LIN Z ER 11 12 A ppearing fo r the D efendant V olksw agen A G and 13 V o lk sw ag en G roup o f A m erica, an d th e W itness: 14 TANENBAUM KEALE LLP 15 O ne C onvention Place 16 701 P ike Street, 17 Suite 1575 18 S eattle, W A 98101 19 Tel: (2 0 6 ) 889-5 0 8 0 20 E m ail: cm ark s@ tk trial.co m 21 BY : C H R IS T O P H E R S. M A R K S 22 23 24 25 Page 4 1 IN D EX 2 W ITNESS: DR. JU ERG EN ALBERS (Sworn) 9 3 INTERPRETER: KATHI STOCK (Sworn) 9 4 EXAM INATION BY MR. M ARKS 9 5 EXAM INATION BY MR. JA GOLINZER 75 6 7 EX HIBIT S 8 NUMBER D E SC R IP T IO N PAGE 9 Exhibit 1 Handw ritten notes 12 10 Exhibit 2 D ocum ent bearing date stamp M arch 23, 1981 11 Bates No. 99 C o n fid en tial 21 12 Exhibit 3 C hart depicting dual-circuit 13 brake for a passenger v ehicle 31 14 Exhibit 4 Tw o brake shoes 32 15 Exhibit 5 Brake drum 33 16 Exhibit 6 Brochure Bates No. 2554-2564 47 17 Exhibit 7 A utoGram m m agazine 18 Bates No. 2408-2419 51 19 Exhibit 8 A rticle by D r Grimm Bates No. 2310-2313 20 C o n fid en tial 68 21 Exhibit 9 A dvertisem ent 70 22 23 24 25 1 (Pages 1 to 4) Page 5 1 (O n the record at 10:49 a.m .) 2 M R M A RK S: This is C hristopher M arks for 3 Volksw agen AG. W e are here today for the continued 4 deposition o f V olksw agen A G 's corporate w itness, w ho is 5 responding to questions from the P laintiff in the Clark 6 m atter. 7 W hen we adjourned last January, I did not 8 have an opportunity to follow up with questions. W e 9 ran out o f tim e and there w ere lots o f statem ents on 10 the record to that effect. 11 M y intent this m orning is to ask the witness 12 Juergen A lbers question as follow up to David 13 Jagolinzer's exam ination as a m eans for counter 14 designation to his direct exam ination. I also intend 15 this to be a possible preservation deposition to be 16 used affirm atively, understanding that M r Jagolinzer 17 m a y o b je c t to th a t u se , th e a ffirm ativ e u se o f it. 18 The goal here really is to ensure that I have 19 the opportunity to ask D r A lbers questions because I 20 did not have a chance to do so last time. 21 So w e're going to do, I guess, a separate 22 transcript this m orning. W hen we conclude, 23 M r Jagolinzer is going to resum e on the transcript he 24 w as on last January, at which tim e, w hen he com pletes, 25 I m ay ask -- cross-exam ination o f D r A lbers -- I m ay Page 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 0 21 2 2 2 3 2 4 25 Volksw agen Group o f A m erica? E ither w ay, it's m y position th at they w ere duly noticed; they had the opportunity to be here, if they wanted to be. So if you're not, it's still m y position that the notice still will apply to them being here as if - w hether or not you're representing them or n o t is a different issue, b ut either way, they w ere noticed o f the deposition, and I believe it can be used against V olksw agen G roup o f A m erica, due to the notice issued. M R M A RK S: I don't know that I agree about the -- w hether it can be used against G OA, but I am here for V olksw agen G roup o f A m erica. M R JA G O LIN ZER : O kay. T hat's all. M R M A RKS: As well. MR JAGOLINZER: Thank you. M R M ARKS: Yes. VIDEOG RAPHER: Okay. M y nam e is W endy V iner, representing Veritext. T oday's date is April 9, 2019, and the tim e is 10:51 am. This deposition is being held at K ing & Spalding, located at 125 O ld B road Street, L ondon EC2, UK. The caption o f this case is R obert G Clark Page 6 1 incorporate the questions I've asked this m orning, and 2 then David Jagolinzer m ay go back on and cross-exam ine 3 on this transcript. 4 So that's m y intent for today. 5 M R JAGOLINZER: Yes. Thank you. 6 David Jagolinzer, on b eh alf o f the Clarks. 7 Yes, I have not finished m y deposition that 8 w e com m enced I believe on January 9 and 10, and w e're 9 accom m odating this procedure to ensure M r M arks has the 10 opportunity to ask certain questions o f D r Juergens 11 [sic]. 12 W hether or n o t -- sorry -- M r A lbers is 13 present and is able to testify is a separate issue as 14 to w hether or not he will or will not be unavailable, 15 and whether or not the use o f that can be used, but we 16 do agree to the procedure in term s o f how w e are going 17 to proceed, and w e'll see how that plays out. 18 Thank you. 19 M R MARKS: Sounds good. 20 All right. So if w e could go on the video 21 and do the swear ins and all o f that, please? 22 VIDEOGRAPHER: Okay. 23 M R JA G O LIN ZER: I'm sorry, one quick second. 24 You indicated, M r M arks, that you are here 25 representing V olksw agen AG. Are you also representing Page 8 1 and A lana C lark versus B org W arner C orporation, et al. 2 The case is being held in the Circuit Court o f the 11th 3 Judicial Circuit, in and for M iami-Dade County, 4 Florida, Case No. 14-027985. 5 The nam e o f the w itness is Juergen Albers. 6 Could attorneys please identify themselves 7 and state w hom they represent. 8 M R JAGOLINZER: David Jagolinzer on behalf o f 9 M r and M rs Clark. 10 M R MARKS: Christopher Marks for Tanenbaum 11 Keale on behalf o f Volkswagen A G and Volkswagen Group 12 o f America, Inc. 13 VIDEOGRAPHER: Could I ask all other parties 14 present to identify themselves for the record. 15 M R M ARKS: Fran. 16 MS LOPEZ: Okay. Thank you. 17 Frances Lopez, Hawkins Parnell & Young, on 18 behalf o f D efendant Federal-M ogul Asbestos Personal 19 Injury Trust, as successor to Fel-Pro Products 20 M anufacturing Company. 21 MS GODFREY: Brenda Godfrey on behalf of 22 Volkswagen Group o f America, not m aking an official 23 appearance, but noted as present. 24 VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you. 25 O ur Court Reporter today is Deirdra Jordan, 2 (Pages 5 to 8) Page 9 Page 11 1 representing V eritext. 2 C ould I ask the C ourt R eporter to please 3 sw ear in the Interpreter, follow ed by the w itness, and 4 w e can proceed. 5 D R JU ERG EN ALBERS, 6 having been duly sw orn w ith an Interpreter, 7 testified as follow s: 8 (Evidence given through the Interpreter, unless 9 otherw ise indicated) 10 EXA M IN A TIO N : 11 BY M R MARKS: 12 Q G ood m orning, sir. 13 A G ood m orning. 14 Q C ould you please introduce y o u rself to the 15 ladies and gentlem en o f the jury. 16 A Yes. M y nam e is D r Juergen A lbers. I w ork for 17 V W A G for about 28 years. 18 I started out in vehicle safety and testing 19 and im plem ented their crash tests, and co-developed 20 vehicles there in regards to their passive safety. 21 A n d in 1998, I changed into the product 22 analy sis d epartm ent, and I've b een w o rk in g th ere as a 23 product expert. 24 Q D o you have a background in engineering? 25 A Yes, I do. 1 about the various engines. 2 BY M R MARKS: 3 Q Okay. 4 In light o f the objection, let me ask it this 5 way. 6 In addition to brakes and braking systems, 7 w hat o ther aspects o f the vehicle are you an expert in, 8 based upon your background and training? 9 M R JA G O LIN ZER: O bjection, form. 10 T H E W ITN ESS: D uring the course o f m y study, 11 I obtained basic know ledge over vehicles in general, 12 and then during m y tim e in vehicle safety at VW , for 13 eight, nine, te n y ears, I, o f course, w id en ed m y 14 horizon in regards to other aspects. 15 BY M R MARKS: 16 Q D id that include engines? 17 A T hat included engines, but, o f course, m ain 18 em phasis w as in vehicle safety, as I m entioned earlier. 19 Q Okay. 20 W e w ere here in L ondon in January o f this 21 year. Do you recall that? 22 A Yes, I do recall that. 23 Q M r Jagolinzer asked you a num ber o f questions 24 at that tim e. D o you recall? 25 A Yes, I do. P age 10 1 I studied m echanical engineering at the 2 U niversity o f K lausthal and I graduated as a graduate 3 engineer for m echanical engineering in general, and I 4 have been w orking at the university for another four 5 and a h alf years, and I w ork there for the D ean o f 6 M echanical E ngineering as an assistant, and in the 7 course o f that w ork obtained m y PhD. 8 Q So the focus o f your engineering, from w hat you 9 said, I gather, is on car safety? 10 A For m y course o f study, vehicle technology was 11 a com ponent. 12 Q A nd then, for your w ork at V olksw agen, that has 13 included vehicle safety? 14 A Correct. A s I m entioned earlier, I started out 15 for vehicle safety at VW , and as "vehicle safety" 16 im plies, that w as the big com ponent o f m y work. 17 Q D oes vehicle safety include braking and braking 18 system s? 19 A Yes. Certainly, brakes are one o f the m ost 20 essential com ponents in a vehicle. 21 Q Okay, and does your engineering expertise also 22 include aspects o f the engines? 23 M R JA G O LIN ZER: O bjection, form. 24 THE W ITN ESS: O f course, during m y courses o f 25 study at the university, I also obtained know ledge P age 12 1 Q Okay. 2 I'd lik e to a s k so m e fo llo w u p q u e s tio n s fro m 3 that exam ination, if I could. 4 A I understand. Please do. 5 Q W hen M r Jagolinzer w as asking you questions, 6 you had brought w ith you a set o f handw ritten notes 7 b a s e d u p o n V o lk sw a g e n 's in v e s tig a tio n in p re p a ra tio n 8 for the deposition. D o you rem em ber that? 9 A Yes, I do recall. 10 Q These w ere m arked as Exhibit 2 to the previous 11 d e p o sitio n , b u t I'm g o in g to m a rk th e m a s E x h ib it 1 12 today. 13 (Exhibit 1 m arked for identification) 14 A I understand. 15 Q Okay. 16 S o I 'm h a n d in g y o u w h a t I'v e m a rk e d as 17 E x h ib it 1. C o u ld y o u p le a se c o n firm th a t th o se are th e 18 notes -- a copy o f the notes that you prepared? 19 A Yes, those are the notes I had in front o f me 20 at m y first deposition in January. 21 Q Could you please rem ind me w hy did you prepare 22 those notes? 23 A Yes, certainly. 24 W e had a com prehensive catalog o f questions 25 provided by M r Jag -- 3 (Pages 9 to 12) Page 13 1 IN T E R P R E T E R : I'm sorry, sir, if I 2 m ispronounce your name. 3 M R JA G O L IN Z E R : It's okay. It's fine. 4 IN T E R P R E T E R : M r J. 5 M R JA G O LIN Z ER : Just say "Jag" if it m akes it 6 easier. 7 TH E W ITN ESS: (Interpreted answ er continued) 8 I f I recall th at correctly, there w ere, like, 60 topics 9 w ith 250 subtopics. 10 W ithin a team at V W , w e tried to respond to 11 those questions the best w e could, and collected 12 com prehensive m aterial for that. 13 BY M R MARKS: 14 Q W ere you part o f that team that did the 15 in v e s tig a tio n ? 16 A I w as part o f that team , yes. 17 Q A nd there w ere others that assisted as well? 18 A Correct. 19 Q O kay, and the notes you prepared -- E xhibit 20 1 -- help list out the effort th at you and the team did 21 to answ er M r Jagolinzer's questions? 22 M R JA G O LIN ZER : O bjection, form. 23 T H E W ITN E SS: Y es, and at the sam e tim e, it 24 served to help me w ith m y m em ory, because the topics 25 w ere so com prehensive, in order to respond to all the Page 15 1 E n g lish . 2 B ut to put it like that, to speak E nglish is 3 a com pletely different story, and in order to respond 4 to the questions correctly, I w ould like to enlist the 5 support o f an interpreter. 6 Q Okay. 7 Y ou indicated that M r Jagolinzer had asked 8 for m any dozens o f topics to the com pany questions to 9 be asked? 10 A Yes, lots o f topics, and also com prising a 11 tim efram e o f several decades, 50 to 60 years. 12 It w as quite a big volum e o f topics. 13 Q Okay. 14 The questions that M r Jagolinzer asked, do 15 they cover -- w ere they directed at vehicles, cars, 16 that are m ade in W olfsburg, G erm any, today? 17 A It w as about -- in part -- about vehicles that 18 w ere m anufactured in W olfsburg, but the vehicles in 19 discussion, or at issue, that M r C lark w orked at have 20 not been in production for a long, long tim e, and also 21 the people w ho built and m anufactured those cars back 22 then are no longer w orking -- are no longer em ployed 23 w ith VW . 24 A nd also, w hen w e talk about docum entation 25 for things that are 50 years back, that can't be Page 14 1 questions so that I don't forget anything. 2 BY M R MARKS: 3 Q Okay. 4 M R JA G O LIN ZER: [A ddressing Interpreter] Can 5 you, ju st before you start translating, if I'm going to 6 object to form , ju st so that I don't w ant to interrupt 7 anybody - 8 IN T E R P R E T E R : Y es, sir. 9 M R JA G O LIN ZER: -- can you ju st pause ju st 10 one little second? 11 I don't w ant to interrupt you, and I can't 12 tell w hen you're done. 13 INTERPRETER: And I need to be prepared. You 14 do th at a lot. 15 M R JA G O LIN Z ER : I can't tell w hen you're 16 do n e. S o I ju s t ... th a n k y ou. 17 IN TE R PR E T E R : I'm sorry. 18 M R JAGOLINZER: No, no, no, no. 19 BY M R MARKS: 20 Q B y the way, and I think M r Jagolinzer covered 21 this w ith you before, do you have a working know ledge 22 o f English? 23 A O f course, I learned English at school, and 24 also at the university a lot o f literature w as in 25 E nglish, so th at I'm able to understand w ritten Page 16 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 0 21 22 23 24 25 com pared w ith docum entation w e have fo r today's vehicles. There w ere no com puters back then, no databases, no electronic data processing -- there w as only paper -- and those papers are not stored for such a long period o f tim e because it's sim ply not necessary. A nd that's w hy it w as in part quite difficult to obtain m aterial from this period o f tim e in the past. Q In order to answ er the questions by M r Jagolinzer, w hat investigation did V olksw agen do? A W e did com prehensive investigations w ith our team . (C ourt R eporter requested repetition) For exam ple, in regards to vehicles and brakes, w e analyzed quite an am ount o f test reports. T hose test reports are stored and saved in our archive. T hey describe the technical aspects in regards to the engineering know ledge. In addition, w e did com prehensive investigations in the historic archive, and, as the nam e im plies, the historic archive contains docum ents having historic relevance. In addition, w e also spoke to the em ployees 4 (Pages 13 to 16) P a g e 17 1 in the brake departm ent. W e also talked about aspects 2 o f health protection, w ork safety, safety chem istry, 3 questions regarding to spare parts and packaging. 4 W e talked to procurem ent, and w ith the legal 5 departm ent, w hich were part o f that team , and we talked 6 to the em ployees o f vehicle technological provisions -- 7 regulations. 8 A nd that search w as not only lim ited to 9 W olfsburg. W e also spoke to the plants in Hanover, 10 Braunschw eig and Kassel. 11 W e also w ent to the autom otive or autom obile 12 m useum , since they still have original vehicles on 13 display. 14 A nd w e spoke to som eone w ith the Em ployers' 15 L iability Insurance A ssociation in H anover, and we also 16 spoke w ith the patent departm ent. 17 Q Y ou've m entioned the W orkers' C ouncil. Is that 18 referred to by shorthand, an d I think you referred to 19 this in January, as the "BG"s? 20 A T hat's correct. 21 Q Okay. 22 A BG. 23 Q A nd w hat is the BG? 24 A It's an association or an organization in 25 G erm any w hich is responsible that the w orkplaces o f the Page 19 1 A T hat is correct. I believe it's around 3,000 2 pages o f docum ents. 3 Q A nd these w ere the docum ents that w ere found 4 both in the product analysis departm ent, the 5 engineering group, as w ell as in the general com pany 6 archives; is th at right? 7 A Yes, from the product analysis departm ent and 8 also from the archive. 9 Q Okay. 10 In the docum ents that V olksw agen found, did 11 this include any docum ents that w ere from the BG 12 related to asbestos and use o f asbestos? 13 A Yes. A lso, exam inations from the V W -- no, 14 from the B G in regards to asbestos w ere part o f that, 15 and that w as also part o f the docum ents produced by us. 16 Q Okay. 17 In those docum ents related to the BGs, you 18 m entioned exam inations. W hat do you m ean by that? 19 A O n workplaces, w here dust is generated, for 20 exam ple, there are rules in place that the em ployer has 21 to m easure the quantity o f dust generated in those 22 w orkplaces, and several docum ents th at we found in the 23 historic archive show ed protocols that reflect the 24 m easurem ent o f dust in those workplaces. 25 Q Okay. Page 18 1 employees are safe, and, at the same time, it also 2 functions as an insurance for the employees. 3 That means, in case o f w ork accidents or 4 work-related illnesses, occupational illnesses, the 5 Employers' Liability Insurance Association would pay to 6 those employees a com pensation or a pension, or however 7 you w an t to call it. 8 And every big com pany in Germ any is a 9 compulsory m em ber o f this association, and must 10 contribute money, and from those contributed fees, 11 those com pensations for the workers are paid. 12 Q Okay. 13 So, in addition to performing an 14 investigation in W olfsburg, Kassel, Emden, 15 Braunschweig, w hy did the Volkswagen team go to the BGs 16 to look for information? 17 A Because, as m entioned, the Employers' Liability 18 Insurance Association is responsible for the safety o f 19 the workplaces, and/or they are responsible to check up 20 on the em ployer that he in turn provides safe 21 w orkplaces for the employees. 22 And we w anted to inform ourselves how the 23 co-operation betw een VW and B G looks like. 24 Q Volkswagen produced several thousand pages of 25 docum ents to M r Jagolinzer; is th at right? P ag e 20 1 So the B G s w ere perform ing, or docum enting in 2 the docum ents you found, their efforts to look for 3 potential hazards associated w ith asbestos in the 4 V olksw agen m anufacturing process? 5 M R JA G O LIN ZER: O bjection, form. 6 T H E W ITN E SS: A s stated, the B G is 7 responsible to check on those w orkplaces, and those 8 docum ents reflect that. 9 BY M R MARKS: 10 Q Okay. 11 I'd like to m ark -- let m e ask yo u first 12 before I do that. 13 D id y ou find in the docum ents -- did 14 V olksw agen find in the docum ents that it located 15 indication from the B G about hazards associated w ith 16 asbestos, and w hether the asbestos could cause cancer? 17 A I do rem em ber one study that w as perform ed on 18 behalf o f BG that w as in regards to the safety o f brake 19 m echanics, or people having to deal w ith brakes. 20 Q Okay. 21 A A nd it show ed that, from the point o f view of 22 the BG, there is no increased risk em anating from these 23 w orkplaces. 24 M R JA G O LIN ZER : O bjection, form . M ove to 25 strike. N on-responsive. H earsay. 5 (Pages 17 to 20) Page 21 1 Go ahead. 2 IN TE R PR E TE R : Sorry, sir, do you w ant m e to 3 interpret? 4 M R JA G O L IN Z E R : N o, you don't need to 5 translate. T hat's ju st us. 6 IN T E R P R E T E R : I'm ju s t w ondering. 7 M R JA G O L IN Z E R : T hat's okay. T hank you. 8 M R M A R K S: I'm m arking for purposes o f 9 identification E xhibit 2 to your deposition, w hich is 10 B ates num bered 99. 11 M R JA G O LIN ZER: 2 to our last one, or a new 12 one? 13 M R M ARKS: N ew one. 14 (Exhibit 2 m arked for identification -- displayed 15 electronically) 16 Q This is a digital - 17 M R JA G O LIN ZER : D id w e m ark that last tim e, 18 do you know? 19 M R M A R K S: I don't rem em ber. 20 M R JA G O L IN Z E R : I'm ju st curious. O kay. 21 BY M R MARKS: 22 Q I'm show ing y o u w h at's b een m ark ed as E xhibit 23 2. 24 D o you rem em ber this docum ent? 25 A Yes, I do recall this docum ent. Page 23 1 M R JA G O LIN ZER: Can I ask for a 2 clarification? B rake pads or brake linings or facings? 3 T H E W ITN E SS: B rake pads in general. 4 M R JA G O LIN Z ER : M eaning lining? 5 C an you ask him : linings? Facings? Pads, or 6 is it s h o e s ? I'm j u s t tr y in g to ... 7 N o, no. The pad or the shoe? D isc brake, or 8 brakes, or ju st general? 9 T H E W IT N E SS: B oth, in general. 10 M R JA G O LIN ZER : Just, for purposes, ju st 11 so -- for u s, it m akes a d ifferen ce betw een a disc 12 brake, w hich is a b rake pad, and a brak e shoe, w hich 13 w as a brake lining or a facing. 14 T h a t's j u s t w h a t I w a s tr y in g to ... 15 INTERPRETER: Okay. 16 M R JA G O LIN ZER: T hank you. 17 IN TERPRETER: T hank you. 18 BY M R MARKS: 19 Q A n d w h o p rep ared th is docum ent, from w hat's 20 w ritten on it? 21 M R JA G O LIN Z ER : O bjection, form . 22 T H E W ITN E SS: I need to scroll dow n a little 23 b it ... 24 So the association w ho prepared this docum ent 25 is the N orthw est Iron and Steel E m ployers' L iability P ag e 22 1 M R JA G O L IN Z E R : I apologize, I'm ju s t trying 2 to see, because I think that m ight be E xhibit 18, the 3 second page, and I ju st w ant to see have w e got the 4 sam e thing. 5 I ju st w an t to see w h at it is. L o oks like 6 the second page. 7 M R M A R K S: It is E x hibit 18. 8 M R JA G O LIN Z ER : A ll right. Second page to 9 that? 10 M R M A R K S : E rm ... 11 M R JA G O L IN Z E R : S tarts w ith -- go t it. T h an k 12 you. 13 BY M R MARKS: 14 Q Y eah, in fact, M r Jagolinzer pointed out that 15 he discussed this docum ent w ith you in January; right? 16 A Yes, I think I do recall. 17 Q Okay. 18 T his docum ent, E xhibit 2, w as found in 19 V olksw agen? 20 A It w as found at VW , yes. 21 Q A nd, generally, w hat is the docum ent? 22 A A s the headline im plies, it's about an 23 investigation about health dangers by dust in regards 24 to brake pads containing asbestos in m otor vehicle 25 repair shops. Page 24 1 In su ra n c e A sso c ia tio n . S o it's B G . 2 BY M R MARKS: 3 Q A nd w hat relationship w as there betw een this BG 4 a n d th e V o lk sw a g e n fa c ilitie s y o u 'v e id e n tifie d ? 5 A A s stated, V W A G is a m em ber o f the BG, and B G 6 has the responsibility to assure w ork safety, not only 7 w ith VW AG, but also w ith other em ployers. 8 A nd I w ould like to correct m y statem ent: V W 9 is not a m em ber o f BG, but, as an em ployer, they are 10 obligated to m ake contributions to BG. 11 Q Okay. 12 W hat is the date o f E xhibit 2? 13 A I see a receiving stam p w hen this docum ent came 14 to VW , w hich is -- w ould you please scroll up? 15 M R JA G O L IN Z E R : T h e re 's tw o . T h e re 's tw o 16 dates, ju st so you can see. 17 B ottom left hand corner and then the top. 18 TH E W ITN ESS: D ate received is M arch 23, 19 1981, and the date that is on the bottom left corner 20 says M ay, 1980. 21 BY M R MARKS: 22 Q Okay, and w hat inform ation about asbestos and 23 potential health hazard w as the B G im parting in M ay, 24 1980, from your review o f this? 25 A C ould I have a second to take a glance at the 6 (Pages 21 to 24) Page 25 1 docum ent, please? 2 Q Yes. 3 IN TERPRETER: C ould you scroll? 4 Thank you. 5 (Pause). 6 TH E W ITN ESS: It describes that m easurem ents 7 took place on w orkplaces w here a procedure -- a blow 8 procedure w as m ade at brake drum s. 9 A nd dust m easurem ents w ere perform ed, and the 10 proposal w as m ade for technical protection m easures, 11 and also, depending on the exposition tim e, that 12 certain m edical check up procedures are taking place. 13 But, at the sam e tim e, it is also said that, 14 at the point in tim e w hen this docum ent w as prepared, 15 that m edical check up investigations can be w aived. 16 So it w as still subject to further 17 investigation. 18 (C ourt R eporter requested clarification) 19 M R M A RKS: W e can take a break. 20 (O ff the record at 11:30 am ) 21 (O n the record at 11:33 am ) 22 BY M R MARKS: 23 Q W e're ju st back from a b rief break. 24 A M mm hmm. 25 Q I w ant to return to the investigation that Page 27 1 A A VIN num ber is a specific, precise num ber. 2 It's a unique num ber issued only once for a specific 3 vehicle, and describes in short form the manufacturer, 4 the year built, and the serial num ber, am ong others. 5 Q The documents that w ere located, though, 6 focusing on those: did these go back to the 1960s, 7 1970s and 1980s? 8 A They also related to those tim efram es, 50 years 9 back, com pany history, and we found docum ents, such as 10 im porter contracts for com panies M r Clark w orked for. 11 Q For the im porters -- im porter contracts for the 12 countries where M r Clark worked? 13 A For the countries in w hich M r Clark worked. 14 Q Okay, and those contracts w ere for the 15 im porting o f vehicles by Canada, the United States, and 16 then the im porter for the C aribbean; is th at right? 17 A For the Am erican countries, VW Canada, VW USA, 18 correct. 19 Q VW Canada, VW USA, and Intercontinental 20 A m erican a? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Those were the importers for each of those 23 regions for Volkswagen vehicles? 24 A Those w ere the im porters for the vehicles in 25 the respective countries. That was m y understanding, Page 26 1 V olksw agen did. 2 A Yes. 3 Q And focusing on the docum ents that V olksw agen 4 located. 5 A Understood. 6 Q In the search to respond to the questions that 7 M r Jagolinzer provided to V olksw agen, did V olksw agen 8 look for docum ents that m ight relate to the testim ony 9 that M r Clark gave? 10 A Could you specify that a little bit m ore? 11 Q Y ou had the opportunity to look at M r Clark's 12 testim ony about his w ork w ith cars, or around cars? 13 A Yes. 14 Q In the search for docum ents, was V olksw agen 15 able to locate any specific docum ents that specifically 16 related to cars that M r Clark talked about? 17 M R JA GOLINZER: O bjection, form. 18 TH E W ITNESS: W e searched for docum ents 19 specifically for the tim efram e M r Clark w orked on cars, 20 b ut since, unfortunately, we did n o t have any VIN 21 num bers o f the vehicles M r C lark w orked on, w e couldn't 22 specifically locate the vehicles, since we had no 23 inform ation w hat specific vehicles M r C lark w orked on. 24 BY M R MARKS: 25 Q W hat is a V IN num ber? P a g e 28 1 yes. 2 Q A nd those im porters in those respective 3 countries, w hat relationship do they have with 4 individual dealerships? 5 A A ccording to m y understanding, those im porters 6 give guidelines to the dealerships as to how to 7 m aintain those vehicles, how the dealerships are to be 8 set up, in order to offer those V W vehicles in those 9 respective countries. 10 Q Okay. 11 So did Volksw agen AG, the Germ an company, 12 have a direct contact w ith any o f the dealerships that 13 M r C lark talked about in his testim ony? 14 M R JA G O LIN ZER: O bjection, form. 15 TH E W ITN ESS: No, V W A G did not. 16 BY M R MARKS: 17 Q Does Volksw agen have a direct relationship with 18 any dealerships in any o f the countries outside o f 19 G erm any? 20 A No, not according to m y knowledge. 21 Q N evertheless, did V olksw agen look for docum ents 22 that m ight relate specifically to individual 23 dealerships? 24 A V W perform ed a search by nam e o f the dealers 25 M r C lark m entioned, but no docum ents were found. 7 (Pages 25 to 28) Page 29 1 Q Y ou m entioned earlier this m orning that, for 2 m uch o f the tim e period covered by M r Jagolinzer's 3 questions, there w ere no com puters, no scanned im ages 4 o f docum ents. 5 Do you rem em ber saying that? 6 A T hat is correct. In the '50s, '60s, '70s, th at 7 technology w as not yet available. 8 Q B y the way, in your departm ent at V olksw agen, 9 w hen did you have access to the first com puter for your 10 w ork? 11 A The first personal com puter w as procured back 12 then w hen I started there. That w as 1991, an IBM PC, 13 and a black and w hite laser printer, and that w as 14 available for the entire departm ent com prised o f 20 15 people. 16 A nd the predecessor o f w hat we now know as 17 em ail w as running on the big m ainfram es. 18 Q So the docum ents that you w ere searching for - 19 th at V olksw agen w as searching for -- w ere docum ents 20 that predated the com puter technology? 21 M R JA G O LIN ZER : O bjection, form. 22 THE W ITN ESS: W here the technology w as not 23 yet available. 24 BY M R MARKS: 25 Q A t V olksw agen? Page 31 1 (Exhibit 3 m arked for identification -- displayed 2 electronically) 3 Q D o you recognize w hat this is? 4 A It describes a dual-circuit brake for a 5 passenger vehicle. 6 Q Okay. 7 W ould this be sim ilar to the type o f braking 8 system that w ould be on vehicles o f the vintage that 9 M r C lark was talking about? 10 A The m ain principle has stayed the same. Even 11 as o f today, vehicle brakes are perform ing based on 12 this system, b ut - 13 Q I'm sorry, I'm going to -- let m e interrupt. 14 INTERPRETER: Okay. 15 BY M R MARKS: 16 Q I'd like to put this in front o f the cam era, 17 and ask y ou som e questions about it. 18 If you shift a little to the left, and I will 19 hold this. 20 A M mm hmm. 21 M R M ARKS: And does that com e into the camera 22 fram e? 23 VIDEOGRAPHER: Yes. 24 THE W ITNESS: Okay. 25 M R MARKS: Okay. P ag e 30 1 A A t VW , yes. 2 Q Y ou spoke about safety. H ow is safety 3 im portant to V olksw agen A G ? 4 A Safety has the highest priority at VW. 5 Q H ow do brakes fit into that goal? 6 A B rakes are a very safety-relevant. 7 IN T E R P R E T E R : O r h o ld o n ... 8 TH E W ITN ESS: [A nsw er continued] B rakes are 9 very im portant as to safety -- as to safety, because 10 you have to be able to m ake sure that the vehicle com es 11 to a stop w ithin a short period, or w ithin a -- that 12 the stoppage path is very short. 13 BY M R MARKS: 14 Q Okay. 15 A A nd this has to w ork, regardless o f the 16 environm ental condition, w hether it's hot, cold o r wet; 17 w hether there is road salt applied on the road or not. 18 W hether it's w inter, w hether it's sum m er, brakes have 19 to perform w ithout a question. 20 Q W e've heard som e about brakes, but w e haven't 21 really talked about w hat brakes are and how they work. 22 A T hat's true. 23 Q I'm going to show y o u w h at I've m arked for 24 purposes o f identification as E xhibit 3. 25 A Yes. P a g e 32 1 Q So w e've heard about brakes, w e've heard about 2 disc brakes, w e've heard about -- w e've heard about 3 brakes w ith brake shoes. 4 A Correct. 5 Q P lease rem ind us w hat's the difference betw een 6 a brake pad and a brake shoe? 7 A A brake pad is a general description. Brake 8 lining is the general description. 9 The disc brake, w hich is on the upper left 10 corner, or we talk in G erm any about "brake blocks", and 11 in the right upper corner o f the picture it show s a 12 brake drum, and here we talk about brake shoes. 13 That means, w ith the drum brake, the outer 14 drum turns w ith the -- together w ith the w heel o f the 15 vehicle, and those brake shoes are having a fixed 16 connection w ith the axis [sic] o f the vehicle. 17 W ith the axis [sic] o f the vehicle. 18 Q L et m e show y o u w h at w e've also bro u g h t -- I'll 19 put this up again in ju st a m om ent -- but this is 20 m arked as identification as E xhibit 4. 21 (Exhibit 4 m arked for identification) 22 M R JA G O LIN ZER: Sorry, 3 is the board? 23 M R M A RKS: 3 is the board, yeah. 24 Q I'm handing you w hat's E xhibit 4. I f you could 25 hold th at up, and tell us w hat w e're looking at? 8 (Pages 29 to 32) P ag e 33 1 A T hat's a typical description o f tw o brake 2 shoes, as th ey are used in vehicles as o f today, i.e., 3 in drum brakes. 4 A s I stated before, those parts are fixed to 5 th e axis [sic] and can be m oved b y putting pressure on 6 the brake pedal. 7 Q O kay. So let m e hand you w hat's m arked as 8 E xhibit 5, a little heavier. 9 (E xhibit 5 m arked for identification) 10 A nd if you could show u s both sides? 11 A T his is a typical brake drum , as it's been 12 still in use as o f today, even less so, and this drum 13 is connected to the w heel. T hat m eans it m oves in the 14 sam e direction as the w heel does. 15 Q So, as fast as the w heel turns, Exhibit 5 turns 16 ju st as fast? 17 A Yes. They are connected by m eans o f screw s 18 w ith the w heel. 19 Q W hat is E xhibit 5 m ade of? 20 A N orm ally, it's cast iron. 21 Q A n d it's h eavy, so w e'll put it dow n fo r a 22 m om ent. 23 If w e hold up E xhibit 4 again, there are 24 m etal parts? 25 A Yes. Page 35 1 go inside? 2 A M ay I? 3 Q Yeah. 4 (The w itness indicated) 5 A The brake shoes w ith the lining are form ing 6 part and parcel w ithin the vehicle. 7 If the brake is n o t triggered, the brake drum 8 can m ove freely from the -- so if th e brake is not 9 triggered, the brake drum can m ove freely w ithout any 10 friction. 11 Q If som eone puts their foot on the pedal, the 12 brake pedal, w hat happens? 13 A Then the brake pads are m oved, and, 14 unfortunately, I cannot show that to you. 15 A n d w ith a large force in part u p to 1,000 16 kilogram s, they are m oved against the drum . 17 Q So th e tw o shoes in th e m iddle th at you've 18 inserted, they m ove outw ards tow ards the drum ? 19 A Yes. 20 Q A n d th at's w h at stops the car? 21 A Precisely. 22 G eom etrically, th ey are designed in such a 23 w ay that the lining is on the surface o f the drum , and 24 in th at w ay can also transfer force on a large scale. 25 Q A n d you said, w hat w as the force th at is Page 34 1 Q T he spring ju st cam e off. 2 A N ow it's back. 3 Q A nd there are non-m etal parts? 4 A Correct. The brake pads -- 5 IN TE R PR E TE R : Oh, no, I'm sorry. T he brake, 6 erm ... 7 M R JAGOLINZER: Shoe. 8 TH E W ITN ESS: [A nsw er continued] -- shoes are 9 m ade by metal, and on the surface o f the brake shoes, 10 there's a lining. T his one is rivetted on. 11 BY M R MARKS: 12 Q Rivetted: it's because there are bolts that go 13 through? 14 A B olts -- rivets. 15 Q Okay. 16 So th e p art th at has th e y ello w on it, th at's 17 the part that w ears down? 18 A T hat is the brake lining. 19 Q Okay. 20 W hat is the yellow part, I'm sorry? 21 T his part here, w ith the yellow on it, w hat 22 is that called? 23 A The brake lining. 24 Q I see. 25 If I hold up E xhibit 5, w here does E xhibit 4 Page 36 1 transferred? 2 A It can be 1,000 kilogram s o f brake force that 3 can be applied, and o f course a large am ount o f heat is 4 generated in the course o f this action, for w hich the 5 brake needs to be designed. 6 Q H ow m uch heat? 7 A U p to 800 degrees centigrade. 8 Q So, in Fahrenheit, that is over 1,000 degrees 9 Fahrenheit? 10 A I w ould believe so, but, unfortunately, I 11 cannot do th e conversion -- 12 Q Okay. 13 A -- in m y head right now. 14 Q So m uch hotter than w e w ould use in our ovens 15 at home? 16 A M uch, m uch warmer. 17 Q A nd if there's not the friction m aterial 18 betw een the m etal pieces -- the brake shoe and the 19 drum -- w hat w ould happen at that tem perature? 20 A I f the friction m aterial w ouldn't be there, and 21 if there w ould be contact m etal to m etal, probably the 22 w heel w ould get so hot that it w ould be w elded against 23 each other, and the w heel w ould be blocked, not turning 24 at all anym ore. 25 Q So you w ould press the brake and the car w ould 9 (Pages 33 to 36) P a g e 37 1 no longer be able to be used, w ithout changing the 2 entire brake again? 3 A O r if it happens during driving, then the 4 vehicle becom es uncontrollable. 5 Q So w hat is th e engineering challenge -- thank 6 you, you can put that dow n -- that m ust be addressed 7 w ith the brake process? 8 A T he brake has to perform safely. T hat m eans, 9 w hen applying a certain brake force, that the vehicle 10 com es to a stop w ithin an acceptable brake distance, 11 given all the environm ental conditions I described 12 earlier, and the h eat th at is generated in the course 13 o f a braking, w hich I described earlier, has to be 14 transferred out through the entire brake system and the 15 vehicle. 16 A nd not only for one brake process, but over 17 and o v er again in th e course o f driving. 18 Q E very tim e you put y our foot on the pedal? 19 A Correct. 20 Q If w e could go back to E xhibit 3, please, and 21 I'll b e hold th is u p, so y o u ju s t sh o w ed u s th e shoes 22 and the drum. 23 W here does one put their foot to start this 24 w hole process? 25 A T hat's the b rak e pedal, and th is is w h ere the Page 39 1 o f the m ain brake cylinder. 2 As the nam e "dual-circuit brake" implies, 3 this type o f brake is com prised o f tw o independent 4 cylinders. 5 So, if the brake is actuated, then a force or 6 pressure is applied on this m ain brake cylinder, and 7 the brake fluid that goes through those lines or hoses 8 is -- pressure is applied on them , depending on the 9 am ount o f force applied on the brake pedal, and a more 10 or less strong pressure is generated, and the brake 11 pressure is transferred to the w heel brake cylinders, 12 and by the pressure applied, also the wheel brake 13 cylinders are expanded. 14 COURT REPORTER: Expanded? 15 M R M ARKS: Extended? 16 INTERPRETER: Expanded. 17 M R MARKS: Expanded? 18 INTERPRETER: Yes. 19 THE W ITNESS: [Answer continued] W hich m eans 20 th at the lining is pressed against the shoe. 21 BY MR MARKS: 22 Q A nd that stops the car? 23 A And, by that, the vehicle comes to a stop. 24 Q Y ou m entioned the tem peratures from the 25 braking. Page 38 1 driver w ould press the brake pedal w ith his foot. 2 Q A nd then w hat is this here? 3 A This one? 4 Q Yeah? 5 A T hat's the handbrake. 6 Q L ike an em ergency brake? 7 A A s an em ergency brake, or as a second, 8 independent brake. 9 Q Okay. 10 G oing back to the prim ary brake, then, if one 11 pushes the pedal, w h at happens next? 12 A T he brake pedal is co n n ected to a rod -- it's a 13 steel rod, so to sp eak -- an d as th e n am e im p lies, it's 14 a hydraulic brake. 15 Q W hat do y o u m ean "hydraulic"? 16 A H ydraulic m eans th at force is being transferred 17 by m eans o f a fluid. 18 Q Is that brake fluid? 19 A T hat is a brake fluid. 20 This is the so-called "m ain brake cylinder". 21 O n top o f that is a container th at contains the brake 22 fluid, and this m ain brake cylinder is filled w ith 23 brake fluid. T his also is displayed by this depiction. 24 T hat m eans the brake fluid container has tw o 25 exits, and the brake fluid then runs into the cylinders P a g e 40 1 A Yes. 2 Q Is there any concern about the high 3 tem peratures in the brake fluid that runs through the 4 brake line? 5 A Y ou have to consider that every fluid has a 6 boiling point. So every fluid will com e to a boil at 7 som e point in tim e, and if the brake fluid w ould com e 8 to a boil, that w ould generate bubbles -- gas 9 bubbles -- and if you w ould have bubbles in th at area, 10 o r in the lines, then you cannot transfer any brake 11 force any longer. 12 T hat's w hy the entire brake system m ust be 13 designed in such a w ay that the fluid in the brake line 14 will never reach boiling point. 15 Q B ecause, if it gets too hot, the brakes could 16 fail? 17 A T hen the brakes w ould fail. 18 Q A nd the car w on't stop? 19 A Correct. 20 Q A nd that w ould be a hazard? 21 A That w ould be an extrem e hazard. 22 Q In order to address this hazard o f the high 23 tem peratures associated w ith the braking process, w hat 24 m echanism w as used to transfer this heat? H ow did the 25 engineers overcom e that challenge? 10 (Pages 37 to 40) Page 41 1 M R JA G O LIN ZER: O bjection. 2 M R M A RK S: In light o f the objection, let m e 3 rephrase th e question. 4 Q In the period leading up through the m id- 1980s, 5 did V olksw agen brakes use asbestos to help stop the 6 car? 7 M R JA G O LIN ZER : O bjection, form . 8 Sorry, go ahead. 9 TH E W ITN ESS: A t that tim e, V W , as other car 10 m anufacturers, used brake linings that contained 11 asbestos. 12 BY M R MARKS: 13 Q So it w asn't som ething un iq u e to V olksw agen? 14 A N o . T h e e n tire in d u stry u se d it. 15 Q W hy? 16 A B ecause asbestos has very good physical and 17 chem ical properties. 18 A t this tim efram e, it w as the m aterial o f 19 choice for those friction linings. 20 M R JA G O LIN ZER: O bjection, form . M ove to 21 strike. Foundation. 22 BY M R MARKS: 23 Q The docum ents that you have review ed from 24 V olksw agen, does it indicate the type o f asbestos fiber 25 used in the brakes? Page 43 1 the vehicle to a stop. T hat m eans, if you actuate the 2 clutch pedal in a vehicle, then force is being applied 3 to the clutch, and the clutch separates engine and 4 gearbox, and once the clutch pedal is released, the 5 link is being re-established. 6 A n d , d uring th a t process, th ere's a certain 7 am ount o f friction until the engine and the gearbox 8 have the sam e am ount o f rotation -- rotation speed. 9 T hat m eans every tim e the clutch is applied, 10 th is friction process is generated as w ell. 11 Q So sim ilar high tem peratures, like you w ere 12 describing w ith the brakes? 13 A In a sim ilar w ay, yes. 14 Q A nd how did the engineers design the vehicles 15 so th a t th e -- to deal w ith th e high tem p eratu res in 16 th at part o f the car? 17 A It's th e sam e w ith the clu tch as it is w ith th e 18 brake. Y ou have to take a look at the entire system , 19 and, as w ith the brake, a large am ount o f 20 tem p eratu re -- o f h o t tem p eratu re -- has to be 21 dissipated through the clutch system . 22 A nd also here you have to use linings - 23 friction linings -- w hich are com parable to the linings 24 o f a brake. It's a sim ilar process. 25 Q D o the docum ents indicate that there w as a Page 42 1 A It w as chrysotile - 2 Q C hrysotile? 3 A C hrysotile asbestos. 4 IN TER PR ETER : Sorry. 5 BY M R MARKS: 6 Q T here's another part o f the car that also uses 7 a friction process; is that right? 8 A T hat is correct. T hat is the clutch. 9 Q A nd that is in the engine. Is that right? 10 A N o t in the engine. It's a connection betw een 11 the gearbox and the engine. 12 Q Okay. I did not bring that into the conference 13 room . T oo big. 14 A Okay. 15 Q B ut could you describe the process on how the 16 clutch uses friction, and why, please? 17 A Yes. 18 W ithin a vehicle, there is a transfer o f 19 force or pow er betw een the engine and the gearbox. 20 That m eans the engine generates the force to m ove 21 ahead, and the gear transfers that force into m ovem ent, 22 and, if the connection betw een engine and gearbox 23 exists, then the vehicle m oves forw ard. 24 B ut there are certainly situations w here you 25 have to disconnect th at link, i.e., if you w ant to get P a g e 44 1 period o f tim e w hen clutches used in the cars contained 2 asbestos? 3 A Yes. In the stated period o f tim e, it w as a 4 standard in the industry also to use 5 asbestos-containing clutch facings. 6 Q A nd do the docum ents indicate the type o f 7 asbestos used? 8 M R JA G O LIN ZER: O bjection, form. 9 TH E W ITN ESS: Yes, also chrysotile asbestos 10 w as being used there as well. 11 BY M R MARKS: 12 Q Is there high tem perature in the engine? 13 A Yes, in the engine and com bustion area, there 14 are high tem peratures being generated. 15 Q W hen you say "com bustion", w hat do you m ean? 16 A If you have a com bustion engine, the energy 17 that is being generated for the m ovem ent is generated 18 by sm all explosion in the com bustion cham bers. 19 T h a t m e a n s in th e c y lin d e rs, th e re 's a ir - 20 in th e c o m p re ss io n c y lin d e rs, th e re 's air, a n d th e n 21 fuel is being injected in addition, and this is a 22 flam m able m ixture, w hich in case o f an ignition, will 23 cause the vehicle to m ove forw ard. 24 A nd, in this process, also high tem peratures 25 are being generated. 11 (Pages 41 to 44) Page 45 1 Q W hat is a gasket? 2 A A gasket is a technical com ponent that is being 3 used w hen you w ant to seal o ff tw o m etallic surfaces. 4 If you have a cylinder block and a cylinder 5 head, for exam ple, and if w ithin those cylinders the 6 com bustion processes take place, and w hen high pressure 7 and high tem peratures are generated in this course, you 8 have to m ake sure that the cylinder block and the 9 cylinder head are tightly connected w ithout leakage, 10 and for that you need a gasket, and in this case a 11 cylinder head gasket. 12 Q W hat happens if there is a leak w ith the gasket 13 in the engine? 14 A In a com bustion engine, you need high gas 15 pressure within the engine, and in case this connection 16 is not airtight, if gas can leak out, then you have a 17 less effective com bustion process, w hich m eans the 18 vehicle w ould not m ove forw ard as effectively as it 19 w ould be the case if it's airtight. 20 Q Okay. 21 D id som e gaskets, during som e periods in 22 V olksw agen vehicles, have asbestos in them ? 23 A Yes. In the stated tim efram e, there w ere such 24 gaskets. 25 Q W hy was that the case? Page 47 1 fosterite is an am orphous m aterial. It's n o longer a 2 chrysolite [sic]. 3 M R M A RK S: C hrysotile? 4 IN TER PR ETER : C hrysotile, yes. 5 T H E W IT N E S S : It's n o longer fibrogeneous. 6 BY M R MARKS: 7 Q I w an t to show y ou w h at I've m arked as E xhibit 8 6 before w e break. T his is B ates num ber 2554. 9 (E xhibit 6 m arked for identification -- displayed 10 electronically) 11 D r A lbers, do you recognize - 12 M R JA GOLINZER: 25? 13 M R MARKS: 2554. 14 Q D o y o u recognize E xhibit 6? 15 A Y es, it's a broch u re - 16 C O U R T R E P O R T E R : It's a w hat, sorry? 17 IN TERPRETER: A brochure. 18 M R M A RKS: Brochure. 19 CO U RT REPO RTER: Oh, thank you. 20 TH E W ITN ESS: [A nsw er continued] - 21 describing the brakes and the brake linings at V W , 22 functionality, et cetera. 23 BY M R MARKS: 24 Q A n d th e date o f this docum ent is? 25 A January o f 1988. Page 46 1 A A s stated before, because asbestos has 2 excellent physical and chem ical properties, and is very 3 resistant, tem perature-w ise, and w as used in areas w ith 4 high tem peratures, such as is the case w ith the 5 cylinder head gasket. 6 A nd that w as the reason w hy it w as used as a 7 sealing m aterial. 8 Q D o the docum ents that V olksw agen located 9 indicate w hat type o f asbestos w as used in the gaskets? 10 M R JA G O LIN ZER : O bjection, form. 11 TH E W ITN ESS: Yes. A lso, chrysotile asbestos 12 w as being used there as well. 13 BY M R MARKS: 14 Q A nd you review ed those docum ents? 15 A Yes. 16 Q I w ant to take a break in a m om ent, but before 17 w e do, let m e ask you: do the docum ents that w ere 18 located indicate w hat happens to the brake linings that 19 contained asbestos w hen that friction process occurred, 20 the high heat generated w hen the shoe or the pad is 21 applied? 22 M R JA G O LIN ZER : O bjection, form. 23 TH E W ITN ESS: Yes, the docum ents describe 24 that, in the course o f those brake process, that the 25 chrysotile asbestos is changed into fosterite, and Page 48 1 Q A nd I don't w ant to go through the whole 2 docum ent. But, generally, w hat is this -- this w as a 3 docum ent that w as m ade to be given to custom ers? 4 M R JA G O LIN ZER: O bjection, form. 5 TH E W ITNESS: A ccording to m y understanding, 6 it's a docum ent th at w as given to the dealers for 7 display for the customers. 8 BY M R MARKS: 9 Q Okay. 10 Just generally, w hat does the docum ent 11 describe? 12 M R JA G O LIN ZER: O bjection, form. 13 TH E W ITN ESS: It describes the functionality 14 o f the brake; it describes w hat happens in the brake 15 process; w hat requirem ents are there for brakes; and 16 w hat tem peratures and pressures m ight occur. 17 BY M R MARKS: 18 Q A nything else? 19 A A nd it describes the difference o f lining free 20 o f asbestos versus lining containing asbestos, and 21 describes the rough differences betw een the linings 22 free o f asbestos versus containing asbestos. 23 M R MARKS: Okay. 24 Let us take a break, if we could, please, and 25 when we come back, let m e talk about that change. 12 (Pages 45 to 48) Page 49 1 THE W ITNESS: Okay. 2 M R M ARKS: M ay we go o ff the record? 3 (O ff the record at 12:26 pm) 4 (O n the record at 12:43 pm) 5 BY M R MARKS: 6 Q D r Albers, w e're back from a b rief break, and I 7 w anted to h an d b ack to y o u E x h ib it 6. 8 A Yes. 9 Q If you could turn that around, please, for the 10 cam era view, and if we could zoom in on that 11 photograph, page 8, w hat do w e see depicted in that 12 picture? 13 M R JAGOLINZER: Objection, form. 14 THE W ITNESS: M ay I turn it around? 15 BY M R MARKS: 16 Q Yes, please. 17 IN TERPRETER: I think it disappeared. 18 TH E W ITNESS: W e see a disc brake on a dyno 19 stand, and w e see that, due to the brake process, the 20 disc -- the brake disc is gloom ing red. 21 And we m entioned earlier that tem peratures up 22 to 800 degrees centigrade m ay be generated, which m eans 23 also a brake disc m ight have this gloom ing appearance. 24 BY M R MARKS: 25 Q Okay. Thank you. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 0 21 2 2 23 2 4 2 5 Page 51 Q A nd they w ere asbestos-free by -- certainly, by 1991, then; is th at right? M R JA G O LIN ZER: O bjection, form. TH E W ITN ESS: C ould you repeat your question, sorry? BY M R MARKS: Q W ere they asbestos-free, then, by model year 1991? M R JA G O LIN ZER: O bjection, form. TH E W ITN ESS: W e are talking about clutches; right? BY M R MARKS: Q Clutches, yeah. A Yes. Q A nd how about brakes? A The brakes w ere free o f asbestos after 1986. Q I'd like to show you w hat's m arked as E xhibit 7 to your deposition, w hich will be Bates num ber 2417. (E xhibit 7 m arked for identification -- displayed electronically) A Okay. Q A nd that starts w ith Bates num ber 2408. A M mm hmm. Q W hat is Exhibit 7? A Exhibit 7 is an em ployee m agazine called P ag e 50 1 So, in other w ords, red hot? 2 A V ery hot. 3 Q Okay. 4 W e've talk ed about the use o f asbestos -- 5 chrysotile asbestos -- in brakes, clutches, and som e 6 gaskets. 7 M R JA G O LIN ZER: O bjection, form. 8 THE W ITNESS: Yes. 9 BY M R MARKS: 10 Q L et me ask you: do V olksw agen cars sold in the 11 U nited States today still have asbestos in those parts? 12 A N o, those vehicles are free o f asbestos. 13 Q W hen w as asbestos -- w hen w as the last car 14 m anufactured -- V olksw agen car -- that had asbestos in 15 the brakes? W hat year? 16 M R JA G O LIN ZER: O bjection, form. 17 THE W ITN ESS: The last com ponents containing 18 asbestos w ere the gaskets, and those ones w ere last 19 used 1992/93, and after that, the vehicles w ere free o f 20 asbestos. 21 BY M R MARKS: 22 Q W hat about w ith respect to clutches? W hen w as 23 asbestos last used in the clutches? 24 A To the best o f m y know ledge, I think the 25 clutches w ere last containing asbestos in 1988. Page 52 1 A utoG ram m . 2 M R JA G O LIN ZER: I'm sorry, A uto w hat? 3 INTERPRETER: AutoGramm. 4 M R JAGOLINZER: Gramm? 5 INTERPRETER: Yes, with double M. 6 TH E W ITNESS: [Answer continued] From M arch, 7 1983. M arch 2. 8 BY MR MARKS: 9 Q And I wanted to direct your attention to page 10 10, and there's an article there in the left side; do 11 you see that? 12 A Yes. The headline reads, "A N ose Length 13 Ahead". 14 Q And w hat does that article refer to? 15 M R JA GOLINZER: O bjection, form. 16 TH E W ITNESS: The article describes the 17 utilization o f asbestos-free brake linings at VW. 18 BY M R MARKS: 19 Q And w hy is the article entitled "A N ose Length 20 Ahead"? 21 A It shows that V W was leading in the 22 introduction o f asbestos-free linings -- brake linings. 2 3 M R JA G O LIN ZER: O bjection. M ove to strike. 24 Foundation. 25 13 (Pages 49 to 52) Page 53 1 BY M R MARKS: 2 Q I'd like to -- th an k y ou -- I'd like to go back 3 and talk about the brakes. 4 A M mm hmm. 5 Q From the review o f the docum ents and the 6 inform ation available to V olksw agen, w hen did 7 V olksw agen begin looking for a replacem ent to brakes 8 that w ere using asbestos? 9 M R JA G O LIN ZER : O bjection, form. 10 TH E W ITN ESS: The docum ents show ed that, in 11 the early '70s -- I believe 1971 -- th at V W started the 12 search for asbestos-free linings. 13 M R JA G O LIN ZER : O bjection, form . M ove to 14 strike. Foundation and speculation. 15 BY M R MARKS: 16 Q A nd, from the sam e review o f docum ents, w hat - 17 w hy w as there a search for a replacem ent? 18 A It had a technical background. Several large 19 custom ers com plained that the lifespan o f our brake 20 linings w as not long enough. 21 So V W started to investigate to increase the 22 lifespan o f brake linings, and also researched 23 asbestos-free solutions. 24 Q The thought being that asbestos-free brakes 25 m ight last longer? Page 55 1 corresponding brakes, w hich m eans all o f those brake 2 system s had to be aligned, and that is a trem endous 3 am ount o f testing that is necessary for that. 4 M R JA G O LIN ZER : O bjection. M ove to strike. 5 N o foundation. N o personal know ledge. 6 Thank you. 7 M S G ODFREY: H ang on. I think that Fran has 8 been disconnected. I'm sorry. 9 Fran, are you back on? 10 Right, I guess w e need to - 11 M R M A R K S: G o o ff the record. W e'll go o ff 12 the record. 13 (O ff the record at 12:57 pm ) 14 (O n the record at 12:59 pm ) 15 M R M A RK S: W e had a telephone connection 16 issue, so w e w ent o ff the record briefly. 17 Q I w anted to hand you back E xhibit 4, please. 18 A Yes. 19 Q So, w hen you w ere referring a m om ent ago to 20 replacing the lining, you w ere referring to w hich 21 portion, again? 22 A The brake lining is the gray lining, 23 approxim ately o f 4 m illim eters w ide, or strong, and 24 it's o n the outer circum ference o f the shoe. 25 Q Okay. Page 54 1 A Yes, precisely. T hat w as the starting point. 2 Q Okay. 3 Y ou told us a few m om ents ago that 1986 is 4 w hen the last m odel year vehicle had asbestos in the 5 brakes. D id I get th at right? 6 A T hat is correct. 7 Q W hy did it take from 1970 -- the early 1970s - 8 until 1986 for there to be asbestos-free brakes in the 9 cars? 10 M R JA G O LIN ZER : O bjection, form. 11 TH E W ITN ESS: It is quite a huge effort 12 necessary in order to replace brake linings containing 13 asbestos, w hich w as the standard in the industry, and, 14 as I tried to describe earlier, you have to see the 15 brake as the entire system . It's -- you cannot sim ply 16 look at the lining isolated. Y ou have to align the 17 entire brake system . 18 Y ou also have to do a lot o f effort o f 19 testing on the roads. A hundred thousand o f kilom eters 20 have to be driven, and that, o f course, takes a lot o f 21 tim e. 22 If you take into consideration it w as not 23 only about one vehicle m odel -- there w ere several 24 m odels -- and, depending on the vehicle m odel, the 25 w eight, the vehicle pow er, those vehicles needed the Page 56 1 A t the tim e in the 1970s -- thank you -- w hen 2 vehicles w ere being sold in the U nited States, w ere 3 there regulations from the U S governm ent that required 4 certain perform ances from vehicles w ith respect to 5 stopping? 6 M R JA G O LIN ZER: O bjection, form. 7 TH E W ITN ESS: Yes, there w ere the Federal 8 M otor V ehicle Safety Standards im posing certain 9 regulations on the stoppage o f the vehicle. 10 BY M R MARKS: 11 Q This is shorthand FM V SS? 12 A Exactly. 13 Q A nd, w ithout going into the details o f the 14 specific requirem ents, w hat w ere the requirem ents 15 generally w ith respectto stopping? 16 A To explain it roughly, the FM V SS requires that, 17 w hen applying a certain pressure on the brake pedal, 18 that the vehicle m ust be stopped w hen it is at a 19 certain speed, at a certain brake distance. 2 0 T hat is ju st the rough description. I f you 21 need it elaborated, then w e w ould have to go into the 22 specific details o f that regulation. 23 Q Okay. 24 In order for a car to be sold in the U nited 25 States, then, w ould the vehicle have to com ply at least 14 (Pages 53 to 56) P a g e 57 1 w ith that m inim um standard? 2 A It m ust com ply w ith those standards, for sure. 3 Q So, w hen V olksw agen w as looking for 4 replacem ents to its brakes for longevity, in response 5 to the custom er requests, w ould changes to the brakes, 6 then, have to com ply w ith the FM V SS standards? 7 M R JA G O LIN ZER : O bjection, form . 8 TH E W ITN ESS: O f course. W hether they are 9 free o f asbestos or containing asbestos, that is 10 besides the fact, but they have to com ply w ith the 11 standards. 12 BY M R MARKS: 13 Q Okay. 14 D id the Federal M otor V ehicle Safety 15 Standards deal w ith other aspects o f safety, other than 16 brakes? 17 M R JA G O LIN ZER : O bjection, form . 18 TH E W ITN ESS: Yes, there are m any other 19 standards. Y es, there are also other standards that 20 are referring to passive safety. 21 B ut everything that's safety-related is being 22 issued by the FM V SS. 23 BY M R MARKS: 24 Q T he Federal regulations in the U nited States? 25 A Correct. P a g e 58 1 Q W ere there other safety regulations that 2 V olksw agen considered, as it looked for replacem ent 3 brakes, to m ake a longer-lasting brake? 4 M R JA G O LIN ZER : O bjection, form. 5 TH E W ITN ESS: Yes. Basically, in every 6 country, the new m odel is brought to m arket. The local 7 country regulations have to be com plied w ith, and, o f 8 course, V W also has internal regulations. 9 BY M R MARKS: 10 Q D ealing w ith safety issues, like stoppage, as 11 w ell? 12 A The stoppage distance, yes. 13 Q Okay. 14 By the way, did V olksw agen itself m ake the 15 brake shoes, and the brake linings, and the clutches, 16 and the gaskets, that w ere used in the cars? 17 M R JA G O LIN ZER : O bjection, form. 18 Tim efram e? D o you m ean A G ? 19 M R M A RK S: A G . V olksw agen. 20 THE W ITN ESS: The friction linings, we never 21 m anufactured ourselves, but other com ponents, such as 22 the drum s or steel parts, w ere m anufactured by V W 23 them selves. 24 The rest w as supplied by suppliers. 25 P a g e 59 1 BY M R MARKS: 2 Q H ow did the suppliers -- w hat about w ith 3 respect to gaskets? 4 A I believe the gaskets were not m anufactured by 5 us. They were procured. 6 M R JA G O LIN ZER: O bjection, form. M ove to 7 strike. Speculation. 8 BY M R MARKS: 9 Q Y ou indicated that, in order to com ply w ith the 10 standards, w hether they're Federal standards in the U S, 11 standards in other countries, or internal standards to 12 V olksw agen, you m entioned testing. 13 W hat type o f testing w as done to m eet the 14 standards? 15 M R JA G O LIN ZER : O bjection, form. 16 TH E W ITN ESS: O n the one hand, driving tests 17 were perform ed over m any thousands o f kilom eters, and 18 also tests on dyno stands w ere perform ed. 19 BY M R MARKS: 20 Q W hat is a dyno stand? 21 A A dyno-m eter, or dyno stand, is a stand th at is 22 stationary w ithin a production hall, and w here you can 23 sim ulate the effect o f a brake on a w heel, w hich m eans 24 a w heel is driven, and then the brakes are applied, and 25 you see w hat brake forces and w hat tem peratures are P a g e 60 1 occurring. 2 Q In the m aterials that were requested from 3 Volksw agen, w ere there questions about Volksw agen's use 4 o f asbestos in the m anufacturing facilities, the 5 m anufacturing process? 6 M R JAGOLINZER: Objection, form. 7 TH E W ITN ESS: I believe so. 8 BY MR MARKS: 9 Q Okay. 10 In the U nited States, there is an 11 Occupational Safety and H ealth Act, OSHA. 12 In Germany, was there governm ent regulation 13 with respect to use o f asbestos in the w orkplace? 14 M R JAGOLINZER: Objection, form. 15 THE W ITNESS: Also in Germ any there are 16 regulations in term s o f w orkplace safety. 17 BY MR MARKS: 18 Q And were you asked to look for documents 19 relating to that? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And did Volkswagen find documents about that? 22 A We did find documents about that. 23 Q W hen did the Germ an regulations w ith respect to 24 asbestos and workers in factories in Germ any take 25 effect? 15 (Pages 57 to 60) Page 61 1 A 1973. 2 Q And what do the documents that Volkswagen found 3 indicate with respect to Volkswagen's effort to comply 4 with those regulations? 5 A The documents showed that, immediately after 6 the regulation was in place and in force, that it was 7 implemented at V W s workplaces. 8 Q And how do you know that from the documents, 9 generally? 10 MR JAGOLINZER: Objection, form. 11 THE WITNESS: There are documents that are 12 related to this regulation from 1973 and demand changes 13 to take place. 14 BY MR MARKS: 15 Q We haven't talked about Wolfsburg, the factory, 16 and for those that haven't been there to see it, how 17 big a place is this? 18 A I don't know the exact square feet area, but 19 it's a huge one. You have to consider that 60,000 20 people are working there every day in Wolfsburg. 21 We produce our own energy. We have our own 22 power plant that in part also delivers energy to the 23 city o f Wolfsburg, and we, o f course, have a large 24 infrastructure that goes along with such a huge plant. 25 We have physicians that are responsible for Page 63 1 Q And what is a foundry? 2 A It's a production facility -- you could name it 3 like that -- where metal parts are cast. 4 The metal is heated until it's fluid and the 5 fluid metal is then cast in forms in order to 6 manufacture parts, such as the brake drum is. 7 Q So melting metal? 8 A Melting o f metal. 9 Q Very hot? 10 A Melting o f steel. For that, you require quite 11 some hot temperatures. 12 Q In looking for the documents that were 13 requested from Volkswagen, did you find -- did 14 Volkswagen find documents related to use o f asbestos in 15 these other processes, like the foundry, the power 16 plant, making things like blankets, and protective 17 clothing for workers? 18 A As earlier described, in those production 19 areas, work areas where high temperatures were 20 involved, such as in the foundry or in the power plant, 21 for insulation purposes, asbestos was used as well. 22 Q Did you -- did Volkswagen find documents 23 showing any effort by Volkswagen to comply with the 24 regulations for workplace safety, as they related to 25 asbestos and dust in the workplace? Page 62 1 the work-related safety, and we have other departments 2 located there, such as research and development, where 3 10,000 people alone are dealing with research and 4 development, and we have our own cafeterias, and we 5 make our own curry sausages, which have worldwide fame. 6 Y ou have to imagine the plant to be like an 7 own little city. 8 Q Have you ever walked from the power plant up 9 through the research facility? 10 A In my time at VW, I walked quite some miles. 11 It's -- really, it's huge. 12 Q Were there workshops at the Wolfsburg factory 13 that made things that didn't go into cars? 14 A That manufacture things that don't go into 15 cars? What are you referring to? 16 Q Like blankets, aprons? 17 A There are work materials that we are 18 manufacturing, and there's, o f course, also maintenance 19 in regards to the manufacturing o f the vehicles, that 20 requires a safe functionality o f the vehicles, and that 21 they are ready for operation. 22 And, o f course, there are a lot o f colleagues 23 dealing with that, just to keep the operation going. 24 Q Was there a foundry? 25 A There used to be a foundry. Page 64 1 M R JA GOLINZER: O bjection, form. 2 THE W ITNESS: Yes, there are several 3 docum ents that describe how dust m easurem ents are to be 4 perform ed at the w orkplace, and when certain thresholds 5 w ere reached or exceeded, that certain m easures are to 6 be im plem ented in order to equip the workplace 7 properly. 8 BY M R MARKS: 9 Q So, as an em ployer o f people w orking with 10 asbestos, Volksw agen had obligations by the Federal 11 governm ent to take certain m easures in the workplace to 12 m easure asbestos dust, and take steps to reduce the 13 dust levels if they exceeded? 14 M R JA GOLINZER: O bjection, form. 15 THE W ITNESS: Yes, there were regulations, 16 and we alw ays strived for and did com ply with such - 17 to fulfill those regulations, and actually fulfilled 18 them . 19 BY M R MARKS: 20 Q In looking for docum ents responsive on this 21 point, did V olksw agen look in departm ents that were 22 assigned responsibility for workers' safety? 23 A W e talked to colleagues from healthcare, from 24 w ork safety, and safety chemistry. 25 Q Okay. 16 (Pages 61 to 64) P a g e 65 1 A And also outside o f the company w ith the 2 Employers' Liability Insurance Association. 3 Q These were all departments w ithin Volkswagen, 4 and then the BGs outside o f Volkswagen, that had 5 responsibility for w orker safety? 6 M R JAGOLINZER: Objection, form. 7 THE W ITNESS: Yes, precisely. 8 BY M R MARKS: 9 Q Coming back to the BGs, were the BGs permitted 10 to come onto the prem ises to provide inspections o f the 11 workplace? 12 A Yes. W hen we talked to the B G guy, he said, if 13 the com pany is w orking 24 hours a day round the clock, 14 BG can come and check up on those workplaces at any 15 tim e w ithout any notification. 16 Q And did -- in searching for documents at 17 Volkswagen, did Volkswagen find instances o f the BG 18 perform ing inspection and testing for asbestos dust? 19 M R JAGOLINZER: Objection, form. 20 THE WITNESS: We were told by the BG that an 21 unannounced inspection was not perform ed because VW has 22 always well co-operated w ith the BG. 23 BY M R MARKS: 24 Q At some point, did Volkswagen, in Germany, put 25 warnings on anything w ith respect to asbestos materials P a g e 67 1 parts? 2 A W e didn't find any docum ents regarding to that 3 and, as far as I recall, w e did n ot put any stickers on 4 boxes. 5 Q W hy didn't V olksw agen put a w arning on before 6 the Federal regulations required it? 7 M R JA G O LIN ZER: O bjection, form. 8 TH E W ITNESS: Because V W was o f the opinion 9 that the asbestos-containing parts in clutches, brakes 10 and gaskets do not represent a danger. 11 M R JA G O LIN ZER: Objection, form. M ove to 12 strike. Foundation. Speculation. 13 BY M R MARKS: 14 Q And, from the docum ents and m aterials found, 15 w hat was that based upon? 16 M R JA G O LIN ZER: O bjection, form. 17 THE W ITN ESS: That was based on docum ents 18 that investigated the dust; that vehicle com ponents 19 containing asbestos, the people working w ith such 20 vehicle com ponents, that no increased exposure was 21 im plied. 22 BY M R MARKS: 23 Q W ho was D r G rim m ? 24 A H e w as a leading m edical guy w ith the V W A G in 25 W olfsburg. H e was an engineer from his education P age 66 1 that were going to consumers? 2 M R JAGOLINZER: Objection, form. 3 THE W ITNESS: At a certain year, and I don't 4 recall the precise year, there was a regulation to 5 label, or put a sticker on, vehicle com ponents 6 containing asbestos, and, o f course, VW complied with 7 that requirement. 8 BY M R MARKS: 9 Q That was a government requirement within 10 Germany? 11 A That was a statutory requirement. 12 Q And Volkswagen complied with that? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Before that requirem ent came into effect, or at 15 th e tim e th a t it cam e into effect, w as V olksw agen -- 16 were new V olksw agen vehicles sold w ith asbestos 17 clutches, brakes, or gaskets? 18 A I believe so, because I believe it w as in '83 19 or later, and the clutches and the gaskets still 20 contained asbestos. 21 M R JAGOLINZER: Objection, form. 22 BY M R MARKS: 23 Q W ith respect to the period before the 24 government in Germany required warnings, did Volkswagen 25 place warnings on, for instance, boxes o f replacem ent P a g e 68 1 background, but at the sam e tim e, also a physician. 2 Q Okay. 3 I w ant to show you w hat's m arked as E xhibit 8 4 to your deposition, w hich is B ates num ber 2310. 5 (E xhibit 8 m arked for identification -- displayed 6 electronically) 7 A Okay. 8 Q D o you recognize? 9 A Yes, I do. I recognize the article. 10 Q A nd w hat is E xhibit 8? 11 A It's an article. 12 IN TERPRETER: K eep on. U p to the end. 13 T H E W ITN E SS: I don't see the rest o f the 14 article yet. 15 O kay. N o w w e'v e g o t it. 16 It's an article authored b y D r G rim m , and he 17 did a study o f the studies perform ed by other 18 physicians in regards to friction linings, and he com es 19 to the conclusion th at -- and he is stating th at other 20 investigations still have to take place, but at this 21 tim e, there are no findings that show an increased risk 22 in asbestos-containing m aterials -- the usage o f 23 asbestos-containing m aterials. 24 M R JA G O LIN ZER : O bjection. M ove to strike. 25 H earsay. Foundation. 17 (Pages 65 to 68) Page 69 1 BY M R MARKS: 2 Q A nd w hat w as he review ing, in reaching that 3 conclusion? 4 M R JA G O LIN ZER: O bjection, form. 5 THE W ITN ESS: He review ed various studies - 6 international studies -- w hich are also stated as a 7 reference in this article. 8 BY M R MARKS: 9 Q A nd w hat year did he publish this article? 10 A I think th at w as on the last page -- okay - 11 that it w as in a m edical journal, 12th edition, 1998. 12 Q '88 or '98? 13 A 1988. 14 Q Okay. 15 A s o f 1988, w as V olksw agen m aking new cars 16 for sale in the U nited States w ith asbestos in the 17 brakes? 18 A No. 19 Q A sbestos w as already out? 20 A W as gone from the brakes. 21 Q W hy did it take longer to get the asbestos out 22 o f the clutches, and then a few m ore years for the 23 gaskets? 24 A Because the technical fram e conditions for the 25 gaskets have high requirem ents, and the technical fram e Page 71 1 Q A nd how m any inspectors do they have listed 2 there? 3 A I h ave to enlarge th at a little b it in o rder to 4 b e ab le to re a d it. 5 T H E W ITN E SS: [W itness interjected in 6 E n g lis h ] J u s t a s e c o n d ... 7 N o , I p u t it a w a y ... 8 BY M R MARKS: 9 Q 1,404 inspectors? 10 A 1,104. T hat's w h at it says here. 11 Q Right. 12 D uring all the m any decades leading up to 13 now , does V olksw agen m aintain that safety w as a 14 priority? 15 M R JA G O LIN ZER : O bjection, form . 16 TH E W ITN ESS: It has alw ays been the highest 17 priority w ith VW . 18 BY M R MARKS: 19 Q W hy? 20 A It is our obligation to put safe vehicles on 21 the road, and, in order to reach that, w e p ut all -- in 22 all efforts to im plem ent that. 23 Q A nd the m ost im portant aspect o f vehicle safety 24 has been w hat part o f the car? 25 A A nd one o f the m ost im portant aspects, if n o t Page 70 1 conditions first had to be fulfilled, because also the 2 cylinder head gaskets and the clutch facings are 3 safety-relevant com ponents. 4 So m ore technical effort and investigations 5 w as needed in order to find a good solution. 6 Q Thank you. 7 W ith respect to safety, did V olksw agen 8 inspect its vehicles for safety before they sold them ? 9 M R JA G O LIN ZER : O bjection, form . 10 T H E W IT N E S S : Y es, th at's a reg u lar process 11 that vehicles are tested before they are out for 12 delivery. 13 BY M R MARKS: 14 Q I w a n t to sh o w y ou th is ad v ertisem en t, w h ic h is 15 m ark ed as E x h ib it 9, w hich w e'll display, b u t it show s 16 a car. 17 (E x h ib it 9 m arked for identification -- displayed 18 e le c tro n ic a lly ) 19 A re you fam iliar w ith th at ad? 20 A Y es, I saw that ad before. 21 Q A nd w hat does that ad show ? 22 A T hat show s a large num ber o f safety inspectors 23 standing behind a B eetle car, and give the im pression 24 how m uch effort is m ade in o rd er to b rin g a safe 25 vehicle to the streets. Page 72 1 the m ost im portant aspect, is the perform ance o f the 2 brake. 3 Q W hen M r C lark w as talking about vehicles that 4 he saw in his lifetim e, as a m echanic, did V olksw agen 5 believe th at those vehicles w ere safe to be used on the 6 roads? 7 A Yes, definitely so. 8 Q B ut th o se veh icles w ere fro m the '60s, the 9 '70s, and the '80s; right? 10 A That is correct, but you have to keep in m ind 11 for those tim efram es w hat regulations were in place, 12 and w hat w ere the expectations from the custom er side, 13 but also from the m anufacturer side. 14 That w as a different tim e w ith different 15 expectations. 16 B ut for the tim efram e back then, and for the 17 regulations in place back then, our vehicles w ere safe. 18 M R JA G O LIN ZER : O bjection, form. 19 BY M R MARKS: 20 Q W ith respect to the vehicles back in that tim e 21 period com pared to vehicles today, did the perform ance 22 -- w as the perform ance expectations different? Are 23 they -- are the perform ance expectations today 24 different than the vehicles driven back decades ago? 25 A A lso, the custom ers had requirem ents at the 18 (Pages 69 to 72) P ag e 73 1 tim e. But, if you look at a Beetle vehicle from the 2 '60s, th ey d id n 't have an airbag, o r safety belts, 3 w hich back then w as not a requirem ent. 4 B ut nowadays, the consum er has different 5 requirem ents and expectations. 6 Y ou alw ays have to put it in relation to the 7 tim e period. 8 Q Do cars -- V olksw agen cars today have com puters 9 in them to help operate the safety features? 10 A Yes, they have a m ultitude o f operating 11 devices. 12 Q A nd w ere those devices even invented back in 13 the tim efram e that w e're talking about in these early 14 years? 15 A It w as not available at that tim e, not invented 16 at that tim e. There w ere no electronic com ponents in 17 the vehicles, m erely basic electric com ponents. 18 Q But, at the tim e, those w ere considered safe 19 vehicles? 20 M R JA G O LIN ZER: O bjection, form. 21 TH E W ITN ESS: Those were safe vehicles, 22 conform ing w ith the regulations in force at that tim e. 23 BY M R MARKS: 24 Q So, even though V olksw agen w as selling cars in 25 the '60s and the '70s w ithout airbags, w ithout the Page 75 1 BY M R MARKS: 2 Q D r A lbers, w e're back from a b rie f break and I 3 w as looking at m y notes. 4 A Okay. 5 Q A nd we were talking about the Federal 6 regulation w ith respect to w arnings and various 7 substances, and I w rote dow n th at you had w ritten -- 8 that you had said 1983. 9 M ight that regulation have com e into effect 10 in Novem ber, 1993? 11 A T hat w as m y m istake. It w as '93. 12 M R MARKS: Done. 13 M R JA G O LIN Z ER : Right. W hy don't w e go off, 14 so we can switch? 15 (O ff the record at 2:38 pm) 16 (O n the record at 2:42 pm) 17 EXAM INATION: 18 B Y M R JA GOLINZER: 19 Q G ood afternoon. 20 A G ood afternoon. Same to you. 21 Q Thank you. 22 E arlier today, doctor, M r M arks referred to 23 you as a "doctor". I am referring to you as a "doctor" 24 out o f respect as well. 25 A n d y ou have no -- you're not a m edical Page 74 1 electronic safety devices you've described, did those 2 com ply with the Federal M otor V ehicle Safety Standards 3 that w ere in play at the tim e? 4 M R JA G O LIN ZER: O bjection, form. 5 TH E W ITNESS: All vehicles on the m arket back 6 at th at tim e w ere in com pliance w ith the V M V SS [sic] 7 standards applicable at that time. 8 BY M R MARKS: 9 Q Is this effort to m aintain a priority in 10 safety -- is that consistent w ith your own experience? 11 A It is in com pliance w ith m y ow n experience. 12 R em em ber, I've been w ith V W for 28 years. 13 I've driven m y self several V W m odels. I'm currently 14 driving a V W car, and safety is still the highest 15 priority w ith VW . 16 M R M A R K S: I'd like to go o ff the record for 17 a break. I m ay have a follow up question. I'll ju st 18 look at m y notes after lunch, but otherw ise, I'll pass 19 the witness. 20 THE W ITNESS: Okay. 21 M R M ARKS: Thank you for answ ering m y 22 questions. 23 T H E W ITN ESS: Y ou're welcom e. 24 (O ff the record at 1:46 pm) 25 (O n the record at 2:37 pm) Page 76 1 doctor; correct? 2 A T hat's correct. I'm an engineer. 3 Q C orrect, and am I correct as well, sir, that 4 you never studied m edicine and/or asbestos any tim e 5 before your em ploym ent w ith VW ? 6 A T hat is correct, yes. 7 Q A nd you have never published on the topic of 8 asbestos as w ell; correct? 9 A Correct. 10 Q Since the last tim e I had the opportunity to 11 speak to you in January, you have had the opportunity 12 to m eet w ith M r M arks and/or other law yers for 13 V olksw agen; correct? 14 A That opportunity I had, yes. 15 Q A nd could you give m e a reasonable 16 approxim ation o f how m uch tim e you've spent w ith 17 respect to this case w ith any o f the law yers involved? 18 A I w ould estim ate round about three to four w ork 19 days. 20 Q A nd, as part o f the approxim ately three to four 21 w ork days, did you have the opportunity to review your 22 tw o volum es o f deposition from last tim e? 23 A Y es, I did. 24 Q Is there anything -- I know this is a difficult 25 question, and I'm going to try and ask this ju st 19 (Pages 73 to 76) Page 77 1 generally first -- is there anything in particular 2 about your answ ers to the questions in January that you 3 feel is incorrect or you need to correct now? 4 A No. 5 Q Thank you. 6 The board that M r M arks has designated as 7 E xhibit 3 basically show s different photographs o f 8 braking system s; correct? 9 A Yes, various or different brake com ponents o f a 10 brake system , yes. 11 Q M y o n ly question, doctor, is: did y o u create 12 that? 13 A N o, I did not. 14 Q A nd E xhibit 4 and 5 that are in front o f us 15 now , both the brake shoe and linings and drum, did you 16 procure those yourself? 17 A N o, I did n o t procure them m yself. 18 Q Do you know w here they cam e from ? 19 A They cam e from m y attorney. 20 Q W hen you say "m y attorney", do you m ean 21 M r M arks or a different law yer? 22 A I m ean M r M arks. 23 Q Okay. 24 Do you know w hat type o f vehicle that sized 25 drum and/or shoe is for? Page 79 1 C O U R T REPO RTER : W heel axis? 2 IN TER PR ETER : Rear. Rear. 3 M R M A RK S: Rear. 4 M R JA G O LIN ZER: R ear axle; correct? 5 INTERPRETER: Yeah. 6 CO U RT REPO RTER: A xle? 7 IN TER PR ETER : A xle. 8 M R JA G O L IN Z E R : A nd, I'm sorry, I didn't hear 9 -- o f a passenger? 10 IN T E R PR E T E R : Y es. A bsolutely, sir. 11 M R JA GOLINZER: Okay. 12 Q I'm correct, doctor, th at y o u first beg an y o u r 13 career at V olksw agen in 1991; correct? 14 A T hat's correct. 15 Q A nd then you stayed in the crash test 16 departm ent until approxim ately 1998; correct? 17 A The nam e o f the departm ent w as "Vehicle 18 Safety", b ut I w as prim arily dealing w ith crash tests. 19 Q Fair enough. 20 Y ou didn't get involved in the product 21 analysis and product liability end o f V olksw agen until 22 1998; correct? 23 A T hat's correct. I changed departm ents in '98 24 into the product analysis. 25 Q A nd y o u r com m encing in the product analysis in Page 78 1 A It's definitely fo r a V W vehicle. I w ould have 2 to analyze the part num ber in order to give you the 3 m odel year and type o f vehicle. 4 Q Fair. 5 A ctually, the brake shoe itself, or at least 6 one o f the brake shoes, indicates the follow ing 7 letters: V W A G ; correct? 8 A I w o u ld a s su m e so ... 9 Yes, there is a V W part num ber. 10 Q A nd it also indicates V W A G for V olksw agen AG; 11 correct? 12 A It's an original spare part o f VW . 13 Q Okay. 14 Just generally speaking, forgetting about the 15 m odel year, can you tell us are w e talking about a 16 passenger car the size o f a Beetle? A re w e talking 17 about a w agon? W hat general type o f vehicle? 18 A A s stated, I w ould have to analyze the part 19 num ber in order to give you further details. 20 Q Okay. 21 W ould you agree w ith me, or do you have 22 know ledge, that this is for a sm aller type o f vehicle, 23 not a larger type o f vehicle? 24 A I could im agine th at it's for the rear axis 25 [sic] o f a passenger vehicle. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 0 21 22 23 24 25 P a g e 80 1998 w as your first tim e that w ould involve the defense o f product liability actions; correct? A The support in product liability cases w as part o f m y resp o n sib ility starting in '98. Q Right, and how m any years, sir, w as that after V olksw agen had stopped using asbestos in its products? A W e said 2000 to 1992/1993, so several years, for sure. TH E W ITN ESS: [W itness interjected in English] 199 -- 2000 is not correct. B Y M R JAGOLINZER: Q '93? A Yeah. There are several years in between. Q Regardless, by 1998 w hen you first becam e involved in this area, V olksw agen w as not using any asbestos-containing products at that tim e; correct? A That is correct. Q Okay. A m I correct, sir, that y ou have no personal know ledge o f V olksw agen's use o f asbestos from your tim e at V olksw agen? M R M A RK S: O bjection, form. THE W ITN ESS: I have obtained the know ledge from the docum ents I review ed. 20 (Pages 77 to 80) Page 81 1 BY M R JAGOLINZER: 2 Q Fair, but you have no personal know ledge 3 yourself, aside from reading docum ents, as to 4 V olksw agen's use o f asbestos; correct? 5 M R M A RKS: Form. 6 TH E W ITNESS: There was no em phasis on that 7 in m y w ork w hen I started there. That is correct. It 8 was not an em phasis o f m y work. 9 BY M R JAGOLINZER: 10 Q Sure. 11 You gained your know ledge about asbestos, and 12 V olksw agen's use o f asbestos, com m encing in 1998, from 13 review ing docum ents in order to prepare yourself to 14 assist in product liability cases; correct? 15 A W ithin the scope o f m y em ploym ent, I reviewed 16 and analyzed various docum ents; that is correct. 17 Q And that only com m enced in 1998, as it relates 18 to the defense o f cases? 19 A That began or com m enced with m y em ploym ent in 20 that new department. 21 Q Okay. 22 M r M arks previously asked you questions about 23 your role as it related to vehicle safety. Do you 24 recall those questions? 25 A I do recall. Page 83 1 w ith determ ining w hat the com position o f the m aterial, 2 such as brakes, w ould be; correct? 3 A Y ou m ean the com position o f the friction 4 lining? 5 Q C orrect? 6 A I had nothing to do w ith that. T hat w as in the 7 scope o f the supplier. T hat are their industry 8 secrets. 9 Q W ell, they're not industry secrets as to the 10 com position o f asbestos in the brakes at any given 11 tim e; correct? 12 A N o, that is general know ledge, but the exact 13 com position o f the lining, that is the industry secret 14 o f the supplier. 15 Q Okay. 16 M y questions really pertain to your role as 17 it relates to vehicle safety had nothing to do in 18 testing the com position and its effectiveness of, say, 19 asbestos or any other com position o f the actual lining; 20 correct? 21 A T hat w as not a com ponent o f m y job, correct. 22 Q Correct. Y our role dealt w ith perform ance, and 23 safety perform ance, in term s o f stopping, and things 24 like that? 25 A Yes, about vehicle safety. Page 82 1 Q A nd your role, as it related to vehicle safety, 2 w as involved w ith respect to an autom obile stopping, 3 the perform ance o f the vehicle, and/or crash testing; 4 correct? 5 A M y p rim ary em phasis in m y w o rk since '91 w as in 6 regards to all aspects relating to active and passive 7 safety o f a vehicle. 8 Q Okay. 9 N one o f your positions and/or jo b 10 responsibilities starting in 1991 dealt w ith safety as 11 it pertains to the use o f chem icals, and any w ork a 12 m echanic m ight have to perform on a brake or an engine 13 or a clutch o f a vehicle? 14 A W ith chem icals, I had nothing to do w ith that. 15 But, o f course, in order to prepare vehicles 16 for tests, there w as a close co-operation necessary 17 w ith the m echanics, where also brakes, et cetera, were 18 checked on. 19 Q Yes, and w hat you w ere referring to, w hen you 20 referred to brakes being checked on, are they 21 perform ing properly in term s o f the stopping distance, 22 and the wear, and the degradation; correct? 23 A It w as about that before actually perform ing a 24 test, th at the vehicle w ould perform properly. 25 Q Correct. N one o f your role had anything to do Page 84 1 Q Y o u w e re a s k e d -- I d o n 't th in k w e n e e d to 2 rem ark this one -- b ut you w ere asked about your 3 handw ritten notes o f search term s. 4 A Yes. 5 Q A nd, from o u r last m eeting, sir, I m ade notes 6 o f certain term s th at you did n ot search for. 7 A Okay. 8 Q Since our last m eeting inJanuary, have you 9 directed a search in the corporate archives for 10 "gaskets"? 11 A Part o f our team perform ed a search for the 12 term s, but I w as not part o f that -- after my 13 deposition. 14 IN TER PR ETER : Sorry. 15 M R JA GOLINZER: Okay. 16 Q In the deposition, in the first day on 17 January 10, in response to m y questions, y ou indicated 18 that no one did a search for the w ord "gaskets" at that 19 tim e. 2 0 A re you aw are o f anybody doing such a search 21 since January? 22 A A s stated, a search w as perform ed for new and 23 additional term s, but, as I said before, I w as not a 2 4 part o f that. 25 Q Okay. 21 (Pages 81 to 84) Page 85 1 W ere any m aterials located after the search 2 for "gaskets" since our last deposition? 3 A I did not receive any docum ents. 4 Q Do you know if any docum ents w ere located in 5 the corporate archives after searching for the w ord 6 "gaskets"? 7 A I have no know ledge o f that. 8 M R JA G O LIN Z ER : I'll ju st put on the record 9 that the search term "gaskets" w as part o f the first 10 deposition notice; I th in k it's part o f the second 11 deposition notice. 12 If such a search has been perform ed and any 13 docum ents have been located, I w ould certainly request 14 those, and I im agine w e can take that up at a different 15 tim e. 16 Q A t the last deposition as w ell, on that sam e 17 day, I asked you as to w hether or n o t anybody had done 18 a search for the w ord "clutches". 19 D o you recall that? 20 A I believe "clutches", in regards or in the 21 context w ith asbestos, a search w as perform ed, but a 22 search for "clutches" as a stand alone term w as not 23 perform ed. 24 Q H as it been perform ed since the deposition in 25 January, to your know ledge? Page 87 1 A The search w as perform ed, as it w as w ith the 2 other docum ents, at the historic archive o f VW . 3 Q A nd does it still hold true, as it did last 4 tim e, that V W A G did nothing to ask its w holly-ow ned 5 subsidiary, V W o f Canada, to search its records about 6 M r C lark's dealers? 7 (C ourt Reporter requested clarification) 8 M R M A RK S: Form. 9 TH E W ITN ESS: I know that legal departm ent 10 w as in touch w ith V W Canada, but I do not know the 11 outcom e. 12 BY M R JAGOLINZER: 13 Q A nd do you know w hether o r not the search term 14 "gaskets; clutches", w as actually searched for since 15 our last deposition? Do you know that for a fact? 16 A A s I stated before, I have no inform ation. 17 Q Okay. 18 So you don't know w hether o r n ot those term s 19 w ere searched for, or not? 20 A Correct. 21 Q Okay. 22 D o you know -- last tim e, there w as no search 23 m ade for "com pressed air" in the corporate archives 24 and/or "grinding" in the corporate archives. 25 D o you know if that still rem ains true today? Page 86 1 A As I responded to the earlier question, I know 2 that searches have been perform ed, but I have not 3 received new documents. 4 Q Fair enough, but do you know specifically if a 5 search w as perform ed since January that pertains to the 6 w ord "clutches"? 7 A I have no inform ation regarding that. 8 Q Y ou know that a search w as perform ed after the 9 last deposition; correct? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Can you tell m e w hat term s w ere searched for 12 since January? 13 A I know that a search w as perform ed for term s in 14 regards to dealers and w orkshops M r C lark m entioned in 15 his deposition. 16 Q A nd that w as since the January deposition; 17 correct? 18 A T hat w as after m y deposition in January. 19 Q And, as you sit here today, you do not know the 20 results o f any such search; correct? 21 A If it pertains to the workplaces where M r Clark 22 w orked at, there w ere no results. 23 Q Okay. 24 W here was that search perform ed, and how, if 25 you know? P a g e 88 1 A I know they looked for "grinding", and there 2 were a lot o f search results that were non-related 3 because the G erm an w ord for "grinding" has also a 4 different m eaning, as a ribbon, and therefore it's not 5 relevant. 6 Q A s a ribbon, like a tied ribbon? 7 IN TERPRETER: Yes, like a ribbon w hat you put 8 on a present. 9 M R JAGOLINZER: Okay. 10 T H E W ITN E SS: A nd that's why, or that is also 11 the reason that w e alw ays added "asbestos" to the 12 search term , in order to get relevant hits. 13 B Y M R JAGOLINZER: 14 Q Fair, but you're talking about w hat w as done 15 before January, in preparation for the last part o f the 16 deposition; right? 17 A Correct. 18 Q Okay. 19 L et's ju st say, since the last deposition, 20 w as a search m ade in the corporate archives, to your 21 know ledge, w ith respect to the term "com pressed air"? 22 A I have no inform ation about that. 23 M R JA G O L IN Z E R : I don't w ant to belabor this 24 on the record. I ju st w ant to make a notation o f my 25 objection as to the scope and the breadth o f w hat the 22 (Pages 85 to 88) Page 89 1 notice requested in the first place, in term s o f the 2 adequacy o f the search terms, so D r A lbers could be 3 able to testify. 4 B ut, okay, w e'll m ove along. 5 M R M A RK S: W ell, I'm no t going to -- I will 6 put it on the record. 7 M R JAGOLINZER: M mm hmm. 8 M R M A R K S: I have a response. I'll p u t it in 9 w riting. 10 M R JAGOLINZER: Okay. 11 M R M ARKS: B ut I do believe that V olksw agen 12 perform ed a thorough search. 13 The term s are all listed in Exhibit 1 to his 14 deposition today, and w e've produced relevant docum ents 15 that w ere located. 16 M R JA G O LIN ZER: I understand your position, 17 and I also don't w ant to w aste tim e here - 18 M R M A RKS: Right. 19 M R JA GOLINZER: -- since we all cam e over 20 h ere, b u t E x h ib it 1, j u s t lik e la st tim e, h a d n o search 21 term s as it related to "gaskets" and/or "clutches", but 22 w e can deal w ith that later. 23 M R M ARKS: Right. W e will deal with that o ff 24 the record. 25 M R JAGOLINZER: Yeah. Page 91 1 '80s? 2 A I personally did not search for that. I cannot 3 recall at this point in time whether or not other team 4 members performed that search, and/or I don't have any 5 information about it. 6 Q As you sit here today, can you affirmatively 7 state that such a search for employees that may have 8 worked in the 1960s, '70s and '80s are no longer 9 working at Volkswagen? 10 A As stated, I don't have any information about 11 that. 12 Q Do you -- I guess I want to know: do you know 13 whether or not there is any support for your statement 14 to Mr Marks earlier that there is no one left at 15 Volkswagen who would have built and/or manufactured the 16 cars that Mr Clark worked on? 17 A Allowing the fact, if you take into 18 consideration the time period we are talking about 19 here, it's nearly impossible that people working in 20 production back in those days would still be employed 21 with VW. 2 2 Q Okay. That sounds like an assumption, Dr 23 Albers, not a fact. Is that correct? 2 4 MR MARKS: Form. 2 5 THE WITNESS: Let's put it like that: P a g e 90 1 M R M ARKS: Yeah. 2 BY M R JAGOLINZER: 3 Q Okay. A t the last deposition, doctor, and even 4 in response to, I believe, M r M arks' questions today, 5 you referenced a team o f individuals o f V olksw agen that 6 investigated to search for the docum ents here. 7 A T hat is correct. The search for the docum ents 8 w as a team effort. 9 Q A nd the team effort that you w ere referring to 10 earlier today also includes law yers for Volksw agen; 11 correct? 12 A A lso, law yers are part o f that team, yes. 13 Q A nd also, there are other m em bers o f the 14 product analysis departm ent w ho helped in this search; 15 correct? 16 A A part from m yself, no. 17 Q Okay. 18 Y ou indicated, in an answ er to one o f 19 M r M arks' questions, that the people w ho built and 20 m anufactured the autom obiles that M r C lark w ould have 21 w orked w ith no longer w ork at Volksw agen. 22 Do you recall those questions? 23 A I do recall this, yes. 24 Q D id you undertake a search at V olksw agen to see 25 if anybody there w as w orking in the 1960s, '70s or P a g e 92 1 considering the duration o f lifelong w ork tim e, it's 2 nearly impossible. 3 I f you are talking about the '60s, th at m eans 4 that 60 years o f working. N obody works that long in 5 G erm any. 6 BY M R JAGOLINZER: 7 Q Dr Albers, m y question w as about the 1960s, 8 1970s and 1980s; do you recall that? 9 A I do n o t recall. 10 Q Okay. 11 In the 1980s, is it your testim ony that it is 12 im possible that som eone could w ork at V olksw agen in the 13 m anufacturing in the 1980s and still be em ployed at 14 Volksw agen in some fashion? 15 A Even that I would consider not possible. 16 Q Okay. 17 W hat, if anything, did you do to check to see 18 if any people w orked at V olksw agen back in the 1980s, 19 for example? 20 A I personally did not perform any activities 21 because I also do not have access to any o f the H R data 22 o f such potential employees. 23 Q Fair enough. But, again, D r Albers, I'm asking 24 you, not as D r Albers, but as V olksw agen AG. 25 Do you understand that? 23 (Pages 89 to 92) Page 93 1 A I understand that, and I said that I don't have 2 any inform ation as to that. 3 Q Okay. I understand that. So let m e rephrase 4 m y question. 5 Is it V olksw agen A G 's position today, on 6 A pril 8 [sic] o f 2019 -- 2019, sorry. 7 M S G O D FR EY : It's the 9th. 8 M R JA G O L IN Z E R : It's the 9th, is it? Sorry. 9 Q That there are no em ployees left at V olksw agen 10 AG, w ho w orked in any shape, form, or fashion, for 11 V olksw agen in the 1980s? 12 M R M A RK S: Form. 13 TH E W ITNESS: I have no inform ation about 14 that. 15 BY M R JAGOLINZER: 16 Q Okay. 17 So then it is no t V olksw agen's position that 18 there are no individuals w orking at V olksw agen from the 19 1980s still in em ploym ent? 20 A I did n o t quite u n d erstand y o u r question, sir. 21 Q Sure. 22 N othing was done by V olksw agen to check to 23 see if anybody still em ployed b y V olksw agen w as in the 24 em ploym ent o f V olksw agen back in the 1980s? 25 A A s I said that before, I don't have any Page 95 1 Q A nd, by the way, is it true you still haven't 2 read M r C lark's depositions? 3 A I saw excerpts o f his deposition. 4 Q A gain, is it still true th at you did n ot read 5 M r C lark's depositions? 6 A A s stated, I read excerpts, n ot the full 7 deposition, and in regards to M r C lark's w ork history, 8 I think the sum m ary I read is sufficient. 9 Q O kay. A ll right. 10 D r A lbers, we already established this last 11 tim e: w hat you w ere given w as D r Feingold's expert 12 defense report th at quotes certain parts o f M r C lark's 13 deposition that D r Feingold thought w as relevant; 14 correct? 15 A T hose are references from M r Feingold's report, 16 and I don't have any doubts, or reason for doubts, that 17 the w ork life sum m arized there -- the w ork life o f 18 M r C lark -- is reflected in an incorrect w ay. 19 Q D r A lbers, do you have any inform ation 20 w hatsoever ho w com plete or incom plete D r F eingold's 21 excerpts are? 22 A I f I can recall correctly, M r C lark's w ork 23 history w as listed chronologically in a quite com plete 24 fashion. 25 Q D r A lbers, how can you say it is a com plete Page 94 1 inform ation. 2 Q So you cannot sit here and say that every 3 single person w ho m ay have been involved in the 4 building or m anufacture o f any o f the cars M r Clark 5 worked on? 6 M R M A RKS: Form. 7 T H E W ITN ESS: And, as I said, I don't have 8 any inform ation about that and, m oreover, I don't know 9 w hat vehicles M r C lark w orked on. 10 W e did no t get any V IN num bers. W e don't 11 know in detail w hat vehicles M r Clark w orked on. 12 BY M R JAGOLINZER: 13 Q O kay. Let's ju m p to this. 14 You understand that M r Clark was a Volksw agen 15 certified m echanic for various dealerships; right? 16 M R M A RKS: Form. 17 THE W ITNESS: I know that M r Clark worked for 18 V W dealers and also obtained various certificates. 19 BY M R JAGOLINZER: 20 Q And you understand that M r Clark w orked for 21 these various V olksw agen dealerships in the 1960s and 22 1970s? 23 A Yes. 24 Q As well as in the beginning o f 1980? 25 A Yes. Page 96 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 0 21 2 2 2 3 24 2 5 fashion if you h aven't read M r C lark's deposition? A I'm assum ing that D r Feingold, being an expert w itness, m ade a correct statem ent about M r C lark's w ork history. Q Okay. So you're m aking an assum ption about Dr Feingold; correct? A Y es. I h a v e n o re a so n to d o u b t it. Q Have you ever m et D r Feingold? A Personally, no. Q Okay. Im personally? A ny other way? A I read his report. Q Okay, and you understand that D r Feingold was hired by V olksw agen to defend itself in this case; right? A M r Feingold -- or D r Feingold -- w as hired in this product liability case as an expert. Q As an expert hired by V olksw agen; correct? A H e is an expert o f -- on b eh alf o f V W A G , yes. Q A nd you understand that V W paid D r Feingold to w rite that report; right? A H e w as nam ed as an expert in this case, and o f course he gets a rem uneration for his service. Q H e's n o t a treating doctor, w hich is o f D r Clark; correct? M R M ARKS: Form, foundation. 24 (Pages 93 to 96) P a g e 97 1 T H E W ITN E SS: I don't know . 2 BY M R JAGOLINZER: 3 Q Okay. 4 Y ou understand that D r Feingold certainly has 5 an interest th at is n o t aligned w ith M r C lark's in this 6 case; correct? 7 M R M A RK S: Form , foundation. 8 T H E W ITN E SS: I don't know that. 9 But, once again -- but, again, the w ork 10 history, as sum m arized by D r F eingold -- the w ork 11 history o f M r Clark, I have no reason to doubt that it 12 w as reflected incorrectly [sic]. 13 C O U R T REPO RTER : R eflected incorrectly? 14 INTERPRETER: M m m hmm. 15 BY M R JAGOLINZER: 16 Q A n d w hat reason do y ou have to believe th at all 17 o f M r C lark's w ork history is in D r Feingold's report? 18 A I w ould have to review the reports, since it 19 has been a w hile, but, from m em ory, the chronological 20 d ata th at the m ain points o r stations o f M r C lark's 21 w ork life are reflected there. 22 Q Isn't the m ost accurate inform ation about w here 23 M r C lark w orked in M r C lark's actual deposition, rather 24 th an som ebody else's sum m ary o f M r C lark's w ork 25 history? P a g e 99 1 correctly the statem ents from the depositions. 2 BY M R JAGOLINZER: 3 Q Okay. 4 W ere you aw are that D r Feingold has m ade m ore 5 than $37 m illion since 1992 doing such w ork? 6 M R M A RK S: Form , foundation. 7 T H E W ITN ESS: I don't know that, no. 8 BY M R JAGOLINZER: 9 Q Is that an im portant consideration for you in 10 determ ining w h eth er or not y ou th in k that he is 11 objective? 12 M R M A RK S: Form , foundation. 13 THE W ITNESS: Y ou m ean that he earned a lot 14 o f money? 15 BY M R JAGOLINZER: 16 Q No. T hat he earned a lot -- he earned over 17 $37 m illion for testifying exclusively on b eh alf of 18 com panies that m ade asbestos products, not victim s? 19 M R M A RK S: Form , foundation. 20 T H E W IT N E SS: It's not m y jo b to ju d g e that. 21 BY M R JAGOLINZER: 22 Q Okay, but yet you w ould rather look at the 23 sum m ary that D r Feingold did, rather than go to the 24 actual deposition o f M r Clark? 25 M R M A RK S: Form , foundation. Page 98 1 M R M A RK S: Form , foundation. 2 THE W ITN ESS: I think, for the search o f 3 docum ents we perform ed at VW , the w ork history o f 4 M r C lark is fully sufficient. 5 BY M R JAGOLINZER: 6 Q T hat didn't answ er m y question, D r A lbers. 7 M y question is: isn't the best source o f 8 w here M r C lark w orked to be found in M r C lark's 9 deposition, not in a paid expert's sum m ary o f that? 10 M R M A RK S: Form , foundation. 11 TH E W ITN E SS: A s stated, I have no doubt that 12 M r F eingold reflected M r C lark's w o rk history 13 correctly, and that these -- this data w as sufficient 14 for the search perform ed by us. 15 BY M R JAGOLINZER: 16 Q W e're going to finish up th is topic. 17 I ju s t w an t to confirm you've nev er m et or 18 spoken w ith D r Feingold; correct? 19 A That is correct. 20 Q A nd w ere you aw are that D r Feingold, since 21 1992, has testified exclusively for com panies defending 22 them selves in asbestos litigation? 23 M R M A RK S: Form , foundation. 24 T H E W IT N E S S : I'm n o t aw are o f that. 25 H ow ever, I still believe that he reflected P age 100 1 THE W ITN ESS: A gain, the w ork history of 2 M r C lark that is reflected in that report, I have no 3 reason to put that in doubt. 4 BY M R JAGOLINZER: 5 Q Okay. 6 Y ou m entioned som ething, doctor, w ith 7 M r M arks as it related to w hat we call a "V IN num ber". 8 Do you rem em ber that? 9 A I do recall. 10 Q T hat stands for V ehicle Identification N um ber; 11 correct? 12 A Correct. 13 Q Okay, and does it m atter w hat the V IN num ber 14 w as for, let m e say, for exam ple, a 1972 B eetle, in 15 term s o f w hether or not it had an asbestos-containing 16 com ponent? 17 A T here's no question that the 1970 B eetle did in 18 fact contain asbestos-containing brake linings. 19 But, in order to get targeted vehicle 20 inform ation, w hat m odel year, w hat equipm ent, a VIN 21 num ber proves to be very helpful. 22 Q B ut it's not helpful at all w hether o r not to 23 determ ine if M r C lark w orked w ith asbestos-containing 24 parts from VW ; correct? 25 M R M A RK S: Form , foundation. 25 (Pages 97 to 100) Page 101 1 THE WITNESS: A s stated before, the brake 2 linings o f that time contained asbestos. 3 But, in order to obtain more and more 4 detailed information about the vehicle, you would need 5 the VIN. 6 The general information, we provided you with 7 that, and the brakes, and the linings from the parts at 8 that time contained asbestos. 9 BY MR JAGOLINZER: 10 Q And that would be true also for all o f the 11 clutches during the timeframe Mr Clark worked on VWs; 12 correct? 13 A That is also for the timeframe in question in 14 regards to the clutches. 15 Q And that would also be the same issue as it 16 relates to Mr Clark as it relates to gaskets; correct? 17 A It also applies to certain gaskets. 18 Q Sure. 19 By the way, there's more than just head 20 gaskets -- cylinder head gaskets that contained 21 asbestos during that timeframe; correct? 22 A Other gaskets in the high temperature range may 23 also contain asbestos, yes. 24 Q For example, gaskets in the muffler system? 25 A And in the exhaust system. Gaskets in the Page 103 1 Maybe some o f them were from M exico or other 2 locations. 3 Again, based on the VIN number, we would know 4 more. 5 BY MR JAGOLINZER: 6 Q Okay. Let's break that down. 7 Any o f the automobiles that Mr Clark would 8 have worked with in Canada: who were the manufacturers 9 o f the Volkswagen automobiles? 10 A As stated, without having the precise knowledge 11 about those vehicles, VWAG -- maybe it was for let 12 [sic]. 13 THE WITNESS: [Witness interjected in 14 English] Westmoreland. 15 INTERPRETER: Westmoreland, I'm sorry. 16 MR JAGOLINZER: I was talking about Canada. 17 (Court Reporter requested repetition) 18 BY MR JAGOLINZER: 19 Q What years do you believe Mr Clark would have 20 worked in Canada with VW vehicles? 21 MR MARKS: Form, foundation. 22 THE WITNESS: I don't have the years in the 23 top o f m y head. 24 BY MR JAGOLINZER: 25 Q The Westmoreland plant was in Pennsylvania; Page 102 1 exhaust system. 2 Q I'm not sure whether you mentioned 3 transmissions, or transmission bands today? 4 A What do you mean with that? 5 Q Okay. 6 With respect to the automatic transmissions 7 in an automatic drive vehicle - 8 A Mmm hmm? 9 Q -- are you aware o f whether or not there were 10 any asbestos-containing components in the automatic 11 transmission system? 12 A It would be helpful if you could identify the 13 vehicles in question? 14 Q Are you familiar with any asbestos-containing 15 products in any VW automobile that had an automatic 16 transmission system? 17 A Again, please? 18 Q I'll come back to it. Okay. 19 So we are clear, all o f the vehicles, from 20 your knowledge, that Mr Clark would have worked on, no 21 matter where he worked on them, would have been 22 manufactured by VWAG; correct? 23 MR MARKS: Form, foundation. 24 THE WITNESS: I cannot say that with 25 certainty. Page 104 1 correct? 2 A Correct. 3 Q It didn't start until 1978; isn't that correct? 4 A 1978. 5 Q So, if Mr Clark worked in Canada prior to 1978, 6 who is the manufacturer o f those vehicles? 7 MR MARKS: Form, foundation. 8 THE WITNESS: Presumably, VWAG. 9 BY MR JAGOLINZER: 10 Q Volkswagen AG, which has been produced in this 11 case, has certain importer agreements with both VW o f 12 Canada, VW o f America, as well as VW Central America - 13 is that? 14 I'll get back to that. 15 A Yes, that's my knowledge as well. 16 Q Okay. 17 And VW, under those importer agreements, is 18 classified as the -- I'm sorry, VWAG, in those importer 19 agreements, is classified as the manufacturer; isn't 20 that correct? 21 A I would have to review the document again, but 22 I'm assuming that is true. 23 Q Does VWAG believe that the Volkswagens that are 24 used in Canada and/or the United States are VWAG's 25 products? 26 (Pages 101 to 104) Page 105 1 M R M A RK S: Form . 2 TH E W ITN ESS: Yes. 3 B Y M R JA G O LIN ZER: 4 Q A nd you w ould agree that V W A G takes 5 responsibility for the products that it exports to the 6 various countries? 7 M R M A RK S: Form . 8 T H E W ITN E SS: V W takes responsibilities that 9 vehicles are built based on the applicable regulations 10 and statutory requirem ents. 11 B Y M R JA G O LIN ZER: 12 Q A n d w hose p ro d u ct is it, ultim ately? 13 M R M A RK S: Form . 14 TH E W ITN ESS: The vehicles are product o f 15 VWAG. 16 M R JA G O LIN ZER: T hank you. 17 Can w e go o ff the record? 18 (O ff the record at 3:46 pm ) 19 (O n the record at 4:05 pm ) 20 B Y M R JA G O LIN ZER: 21 Q A ll right, doctor, w e're going to ju m p to a 22 different topic now. 23 A Okay. 24 Q D r A lbers, am I correct that you personally did 25 not search, or request a search to be m ade, to Page 107 1 w holly-ow ned subsidiaries o f VW A G ; correct? 2 M R M A RK S: Form. 3 THE W ITNESS: In regards to V W Canada, yes, 4 and V W A m ericana - 5 M R JA G O LIN ZER: Interam ericana. 6 TH E W ITN ESS: -- Interam ericana, those w ere 7 im porters o f V W A G products. 8 B ut w hether their legal status w as a 9 subsidiary, I'm unable to confirm . 10 BY M R JAGOLINZER: 11 Q A nd you're referring to the interam ericana; 12 correct? 13 A Yes, Interam ericana. 14 Q Okay. 15 Certainly, w ith respect to V W o f Canada, V W A G 16 has the right to request docum ents directly from V W o f 17 Canada; correct? 18 A V W A G m ay certainly request V W Canada for 19 docum ents. 20 Q And, w ith respect to the prior deposition, I 21 know you had not taken any steps to speak to A ribert 22 K olm s -- K -O -L-M -S -- correct? 23 A A ribert K olm s. I'm n o t even sure i f he is 24 still alive. I d o n 't know w here he is at, if he is 25 still alive. Page 106 1 V olksw agen A G 's subsidiaries, V W C anada or V W 2 Interam ericana? 3 A W e perform ed a search in the historical archive 4 and found docum ents and produced these docum ents. 5 Q Y es, sir, I understand that. 6 I'm referring w ith respect to asking the US 7 -- I'm sorry, asking the V W A G subsidiary itself, V W 8 C anada and V W Interam ericana, for docum ents. 9 M R M A RK S: Form. 10 TH E W ITN ESS: Legal departm ent w as in touch 11 w ith V W Canada; and V W Interam ericana, I'm not quite 12 sure if they are still in existence in this form, as o f 13 today. 14 BY M R JAGOLINZER: 15 Q Regardless, you have not been provided w ith 16 docum ents, or seen docum ents, that cam e from V W o f 17 C anada or V W Interam ericana as it relates to the 18 dealers that M r C lark w orked at; correct? 19 M R M A RK S: Form. 20 THE W ITN ESS: A part from the docum ents that I 21 found in the historic archives, I have not found any 22 other docum ents. 23 BY M R JAGOLINZER: 24 Q A nd I am correct, sir, th at V W o f C anada and V W 25 Interam ericana, w hen it did exist, w ere 100 per cent Page 108 1 Q Okay. 2 First off, I think we established last tim e 3 M r K olm s, if he is still alive, w ould be getting a 4 pension from VW AG; correct? 5 A V W A G m ay certainly have the necessary data, but 6 I do not have this data. 7 Q Understood, but you understand, doctor, you are 8 here speaking on behalf o f the entire com pany, not ju st 9 yourself; correct? 10 A T hat is correct. T hat is correct, but I do not 11 have any further inform ation about M r A ribert Kolms. 12 Q A nd then I'd also be correct, then, you haven't 13 spoken to M r K olm s, if is he alive, since our last 14 deposition; correct? 15 A That is correct. 16 Q Okay. 17 And, in response to M r -- som e o f M r M arks' 18 questions, you w ere talking about w hat w e will call the 19 "BGs"; correct? 20 A A bout the Em ployers' Liability Insurance 21 C om pany [sic]. 22 IN TERPRETER: Association, sorry. 23 BY M R JAGOLINZER: 24 Q Is that a governm ental agency? 25 A It's no t a governm ent agency, b u t it's a 27 (Pages 105 to 108) Page 109 1 carrier o f public law. 2 The Em ployers' L iability Insurance 3 A ssociation cannot enact any laws, but they can m ake 4 proposals, w hich then will be im plem ented 5 correspondingly by governm ent agencies. 6 Q B ut it is a public carrier, or a public entity; 7 correct? 8 A From m y point o f know ledge, it's a public law 9 entity. 10 Q Okay. 11 A nd last tim e we met, you indicated you spoke 12 to an individual at the BG; correct? 13 A Yes, w ith one o f the m anagem ent people o f the 14 B G in H anover. 15 Q A s y ou sit here today, sir, do y ou still refuse 16 to tell m e the nam e o f the individual for the 17 m anagem ent o f this public entity in H anover? 18 M R M A RK S: L et m e interject. 19 I've been advised by G erm an counsel th at 20 privacy law s in G erm any and the EU prohibit disclosure 21 o f personal inform ation, and do not w ish to subject D r 22 A lbers or m yself to a violation o f that. 23 I'm happy to m eet and co n fer o n th at further, 24 but, on that basis, I'm going to instruct him not to 25 disclose the identity o f any individuals by name. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 0 21 22 23 24 25 Page 111 M R M A RK S: W ell, he's going to follow my instruction. M R JA G O L IN Z E R : D o y o u understand w h at I'm getting at? M R M A RK S: I'm his attorney here today. M R JAGOLINZER: Yeah. M R M A RK S: B ut it's based upon the advice o f G erm an counsel, and so w hether he can, he w ill not. I understand your position - M R JA GOLINZER: Yes. M R M A RK S: -- and w e can take that up separately. M R JA G O LIN ZER : Right. W e'll get to that later, an d I'll ju st clear it on th e record: th e reason w hy I'm follow ing up is, now w e've m ade it clear that it is a public entity, and I don't think there could possibly be an y privacy law s, but you're right; w e'll deal w ith it later. M R M A RK S: I understand your position. M R JAGOLINZER: Yeah. Q D r A lbers, you indicated, in response to M r M arks' questions, that the B G w as responsible for the safety o f the w orkplace. Do you recall that? A I believe I specified a little bit m ore P age 110 1 B ut he m ay respond by telling a title, but 2 anything that w ould be personally identifying, 3 I understand to be not perm itted. 4 THE W ITN ESS: U nderstood. 5 BY M R JAGOLINZER: 6 Q So m y question still stands: do y ou still 7 refuse to tell us the nam e of the m anagem ent person in 8 the H anover office o f the BG , w hich you've now told us 9 is a public entity? 10 M R M A RK S: U pon the advice o f counsel, I 11 w ould ask him not to reveal the name. 12 BY M R JAGOLINZER: 13 Q So I ju st need an answ er. Y ou're not going to 14 tell us the name; correct? 15 A A ccording to m y know ledge, I w ould violate 16 G erm an law, and therefore I cannot reveal the nam e. 17 Q Right, and is your know ledge based on anything 18 other than w hat M r M arks has ju st said? 19 M R M A RK S: L et m e ju st -- please, counsel, if 20 I might: it's based upon the advice o f G erm an counsel, 21 a n d h e 's ta k in g th e d ire c tio n o f th a t c o u n sel. S o ... 22 M R JA G O LIN ZER: Right. I w as trying to 23 figure out if he w as going to follow your instruction, 24 but his answ er back w as it w as som e other thing. 25 T hat's w hat I w as trying to get at. P ag e 112 1 afterw ards. 2 It's the BG 's obligation to check w hether the 3 workplaces are safe. The safety o f the w orkplace is in 4 the responsibility o f the em ployer. 5 Q Great. Thank you. I ju st needed to clarify 6 that. Thank you. 7 D r Albers, I'll tell you w e're going to get a 8 little bit m ore into the BG and the relationship with 9 V olksw agen, I think, tom orrow when we get back to some 10 docum ents. So I'm going to m ove o ff o f that; okay? 11 A Okay. 12 Q So I w ant to hand you w hat M r M arks was 13 review ing with you earlier that w e said was Bates 14 stam ped 99, and this one doesn't have the Bates stamp 15 99 on the bottom , b u t I'll represent it is 99. 16 A There is nothing on this page indicating a 17 Bates stamp. 18 M R M A RKS: It's E xhibit 2. 19 (Exhibit 2, previously m arked, show n to w itness) 20 (B rief discussion betw een counsel about the exhibit) 21 M R JA GOLINZER: Let m e do this, and m aybe 22 I'll m ake it easier. 23 Q This particular docum ent, D r Albers, was m arked 24 in first deposition as m y P laintiffs 18. 25 The first page, you'll see the Bates stamp 28 (Pages 109 to 112) Page 113 1 num ber is 99 on the bottom ; correct? 2 A Correct. 3 Q The follow ing page, that M r M arks showed you on 4 his com puter, is the next page in your pile, and that 5 is Bates 99, and is that the docum ent that M r M arks was 6 show ing you earlier and asking you questions on his 7 com puter? 8 A It seems to be the docum ent. 9 Q Right. This is w here w e had the conversation 10 that it w as received by V olksw agen in M arch 23 o f 1981; 11 correct? 12 A Correct. 13 Q A nd that the docum ent m ay h ave been created in 14 M ay o f 1980 at the bottom ; correct? 15 A Yes, correct. 16 Q Okay. 17 I ju st w ant to follow up on a couple o f 18 questions, follow ing on M r M arks' questions. 19 A Okay. 20 Q In the second colum n, under w hat is paragraph 21 n u m b er 8; do y o u see that? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Does it say that, when blow ing out brake drums, 24 linings -- well, I'm sorry, lim its for asbestos 25 containing dust are exceeded for a short tim e in the Page 115 1 clearly has a fibro-genic and a carcinogenic effect? 2 Fibro-genic and carcinogenic? 3 A It is stated here w ithout really specifying 4 w h a t ty p e o f lin in g , b u t it's sta te d h ere. 5 Q Correct. 6 A W ithout elaboration. 7 Q Okay. 8 T hat is som ething V olksw agen certainly 9 received in 1981; correct? 10 A T h a t's w h a t th e re c e iv in g s ta m p im p lie s , so I 'm 11 assum ing so. 12 Q R ig h t, a n d a ls o I 'm a s s u m in g so, sin c e it w a s 13 produced to m e from V olksw agen from th eir files. 14 Is th at fair? 15 A I w ould assum e so, too. 16 Q Okay. 17 A nd carcinogenic, you understand that to mean 18 it can cause cancer; correct? 19 M R M A RK S: Form , foundation. 20 T H E W IT N E S S : I'm n o t a m e d ic a l g u y , b u t 21 "carcinogenic", yes, that w ould im ply causing cancer. 22 B Y M R JA G O LIN ZER: 23 Q A nd "fibro-genic" w ould im ply causes fibrosis, 24 you w ould agree; correct? 25 M R M A RK S: Form , foundation. Page 114 1 w orkplace? 2 A C o rre c t, b u t it's p u t in to re la tio n th a t a t th e 3 4 However, at the w ork environm ent, it is 5 c e rta in ly -- it's le ft b e lo w th e th re sh o ld . 6 Q Right. 7 I t d o e s n o t -- th is d o c u m e n t d o e s n 't say 8 w hich particular w ork spaces it is referring to in 9 either part o f that; correct? 10 A There are no geom etrical data provided, or 11 anything. 12 Q R ig h t. I t d o e s n 't sh o w , fo r e x am p le, w h e th e r 13 there is air reduction suction devices there, for 14 exam ple? 15 A T hat is not reflected here, correct. 16 Q Right. 17 B ut w hat it does show, that the lim its for 18 asbestos-containing dust are exceeded w hen blow ing out 19 brake drums; correct? 20 A For a short period o f tim e w ithin the w ork 21 space. 22 Q Right. 23 T hen if you ju m p to paragraph 10, does this 24 docum ent, that V olksw agen received in M arch o f 1981, 25 indicate that the dust from w orking on brake facings Page 116 1 THE W ITN ESS: "Fibro-genic" to me has 2 so m e th in g to d o w ith fib er. S o I d o n 't k n o w w h e th e r 3 th a t's th e c ase o r n ot. 4 BY M R JAGOLINZER: 5 Q Fair enough. 6 So you notice that, w hen V olksw agen produced 7 this docum ent to me, they m arked it "Confidential". 8 Do you see that on the very bottom ? 9 A W here do you see that? 10 Q A t the very bottom o f the page? M aybe yours 11 d o e s n 't. I d o n 't kn o w . 12 M ay I see? 13 (D ocum ent handed to Counsel) 14 O kay. Y o u rs d o e s n 't sa y it. T he firs t pag e 15 sa y s it, b u t ... 16 Fair enough. Let m e ju st ask you this, then: 17 there is nothing confidential in this docum ent, you 18 w ould agree w ith me; right? 19 M R M A RK S: Form , foundation. 20 TH E W ITN ESS: A ccording to w hat m y belief, it 21 w as provided by the BG, and, yes, it is from the BG, 22 a n d th e re 's n o th in g c o n fid e n tia l in it. 23 M R M A R K S : A n d I 'll ju s t sta te f o r th e re c o rd 24 that the designation o f confidentiality has to do w ith 25 the G D PR and, upon advice o f G erm an counsel, the 29 (Pages 113 to 116) Page 117 1 repercussions for potentially, or even inadvertently, 2 disclosing protected data under the G D P R is 3 significant. 4 So the docum ents, because they w ere produced 5 in A m erican litigation in the form that they w ere found 6 in Germ an, we w ere uncertain as to w hich term s, i f any, 7 w ould be subject to that. 8 So, ou t o f an abundance o f caution, all 9 docum ents were labeled "Confidential", and w e have a 10 stipulation in place to deal w ith any docum ent that 11 is -- anyone feels should n o t be subject to that, and a 12 procedure to handle it. 13 M R JA G O LIN ZER: I understand that, and we 14 have been discussing that, M r M arks, and thank you, and 15 it's the Plaintiffs' position th at V W A G certainly 16 w aived any o f the confidentiality o f these docum ents by 17 n o t follow ing the protective order th at w as in place in 18 the first place. 19 But, regardless, I was ju st trying to 20 establish th at this particular docum ent -- this is 21 sim ply ju st an article from the BG; right? 22 TH E W ITN ESS: I did not quite understand the 23 first part o f your statement. 24 But, from m y understanding, nam es were 25 redacted based on the GDPR. Page 119 1 their employees. 2 BY MR JAGOLINZER: 3 Q Well, doctor, you'd agree with me that any of 4 the dealers in Canada or the United States would not be 5 members of the BG; correct? 6 MR MARKS: Form, foundation. 7 THE WITNESS: Not of the BG, but I heard of 8 OSHA, that they would have to be members of OSHA, which 9 in turn would make them obligated to provide safe 10 workplaces. 11 BY MR JAGOLINZER: 12 Q Sir, are you familiar, and do you hold yourself 13 out to be an expert in what OSHA requires and does not 14 require? 15 MR MARKS: Form, foundation. 16 THE WITNESS: As I said, I'm not an expert, 17 but, according to my knowledge, OSHA is an organization 18 similar to BG. 19 BY MR JAGOLINZER: 20 Q Have you seen anything with respect to OSHA 21 where they were put on notice that the blowing out of 22 brake drums with asbestos exceeds acceptable limits? 23 A I don't know such documents from OSHA. They 24 certainly would not show up at VWAG. 25 Q Right. Page 118 1 BY M R JAGOLINZER: 2 Q Right, and, as it stands now, you w ould agree 3 w ith m e there's nothing confidential if nam es have been 4 redacted, even if under the G D PR? 5 M R M A RK S: Form , foundation. 6 T H E W ITN E SS: It's an article o f the BG. 7 BY M R JAGOLINZER: 8 Q Yeah. 9 A A nd I don't even see a stam p "C onfidential" on 10 it. 11 Q I understand that. 12 A ll the docum ents, I'll rep resen t to y o u th at 13 w ere produced to m e, m ine says "C onfidential", but it's 14 fine. It doesn't m atter. 15 D r A lbers, w ould you agree w ith me that 16 V olksw agen A G at no point in tim e advised any o f its 17 dealers, or any V W certified m echanics, or ow ners o f 18 vehicles, that lim its o f asbestos-containing dust can 19 be exceeded w hen blow ing out brake drum s? 20 M R M A RK S: Form . 21 TH E W ITN ESS: A t least, I did not find any 22 docum ents o f such nature. 23 But, again, dealers are independent 24 operations that norm ally w ould also be a m em ber o f the 25 BG, and hence obligated to provide safe w orkplaces to P age 120 1 So we do know that Volkswagen AG did get 2 notice from the BG in 1981 that the blow out o f drums 3 exceeded acceptable levels; right? 4 A For a short period o f time. 5 Q Okay. 6 The question then becomes is that: it is also 7 correct that Volkswagen AG did not take that 8 information and provide it to any o f the individuals 9 who were expected to work with the Volkswagen products; 10 correct? 11 A Again, please? 12 Q Yes. We'll start over. 1 3 Volkswagen, in 1981, knew that, when blowing 14 out brake drums, limits o f asbestos-containing dust are 15 exceeded for a short time, and, with this information, 16 they did not pass that along to VW o f America, for 17 example, as well as VW o f Canada, or any VW certified 18 mechanic; correct? 19 MR MARKS: Form. 20 Objection, form. 21 THE WITNESS: The forwarding o f the article, 22 I don't know whether that happened. 23 But VWAG, as an employer, it's their 2 4 responsibility to meet statutory requirements as to the 2 5 dust measuring, et cetera, and to fulfill those 30 (Pages 117 to 120) Page 121 1 statutory standards. 2 I don't know if it makes any sense to forward 3 that article. 4 BY MR JAGOLINZER: 5 Q Okay. 6 Was information about blowing out o f brake 7 drums, and that it would -- and that it could exceed 8 limits o f exposure to asbestos, ever put in any VW 9 manuals? 10 MR MARKS: Form. 11 THE WITNESS: As stated, it doesn't say here 12 where and in what way those works were performed, and 13 whether that was applicable at all for VW repair shops. 14 BY MR JAGOLINZER: 15 Q Did VW AG at any point in time advise in its 16 manuals that compressed air should not be used when 17 blowing out brake drums? 18 A I'm not aware o f any such warnings in the 19 workshop manuals. 20 Q And is it similarly true, sir, that you're not 21 aware o f any such warnings in any Volkswagen 22 promotional or other material that would have been 23 handed out? 24 MR MARKS: Form. 25 THE WITNESS: At least, w e did not find any Page 123 1 Q Okay, and would you agree that Volkswagen AG 2 certainly had highly qualified technical engineers 3 going back into the 1940s as well? 4 M R M ARKS: Form. 5 THE W ITNESS: I w ould assume so, that VW also 6 hired and em ployed good technicians as well. 7 INTERPRETER: Engineers as well, sorry. 8 BY M R JAGOLINZER: 9 Q And V olksw agen was certainly perform ing 10 perform ance, w ear and degradation tests on, for 11 exam ple, its brakes going back into the1940s and '50s; 12 correct? 13 A I w ould assum e so, although I'm not sure 14 w hether w e have docum entations from th e '40s. 15 But, from the beginning, VW strived to 16 perform comprehensive testing in regardsto brakes. 17 Q And you would agree that, since the beginning, 18 that VW could certainly have been perform ing tests if 19 it w anted to, sim ilar to the blow out tests that were 2 0 described in Exhibit 99, if they wanted to? 21 M R M ARKS: Form, foundation. 22 THE W ITNESS: If it were considered to be 23 necessary, then such tests could have been performed. 24 But, since workplace safety had a high 25 emphasis at VW, even back then, I w ould assum e the same P age 122 1 such documents in the course o f our search. 2 BY MR JAGOLINZER: 3 Q And, similarly, sir, there was no such 4 precautions or warnings put on any o f the Volkswagen 5 genuine parts that would advise not to use compressed 6 air; correct? 7 MR MARKS: Form. 8 THE WITNESS: As far as I know, such warnings 9 were not available -- did not exist. 10 BY MR JAGOLINZER: 11 Q And you've not seen any documentation that 12 information o f this type was passed on to Volkswagen o f 13 Canada or Volkswagen o f America; correct? 14 A I do not have any information and/or documents, 15 correct. 16 Q Dr Albers, I think in the last deposition you 17 said that Volkswagen AG had medical doctors in its 18 employ going back to 1949; correct? 19 MR MARKS: Form. 20 THE WITNESS: Those are information provided 21 to you in the interview o f the medical personnel. 22 BY MR JAGOLINZER: 23 Q Right, but Volkswagen AG did have medical 24 doctors in its employment going back to 1949; right? 25 A Yes. P ag e 124 1 to apply also later. 2 BY M R JAGOLINZER: 3 Q A nd you didn't find any docum ents in, or you 4 were not provided with any docum ents, that would show 5 that any tests with respect to the servicing o f brakes 6 was perform ed and m easured at V W at any tim e prior to 7 even 1981? 8 M R M ARKS: Form. 9 THE W ITNESS: W e found m any docum ents that 10 showed that dust m easurem ents were perform ed at various 11 workplaces w ithin VW. 12 BY M R JAGOLINZER: 13 Q T hat w as in the m anufacturing setting; correct? 14 A That was in the VW plants, correct. 15 Q N ot in the servicing of, let's say, for 16 example, the autom otive brakes in a brake repair 17 setting; correct? 18 M R M ARKS: Form. 19 THE W ITNESS: Y ou mean with a repair shop? 2 0 BY M R JAGOLINZER: 21 Q Yes, or in a repair setting, w here som ebody 2 2 would be doing a repair? 2 3 A As stated, the ow ner o f such repair shops w ould 2 4 be responsible for providing their em ployees and staff 2 5 with a safe w ork environm ent -- workplace. 31 (Pages 121 to 124) P age 125 1 Q N ow , didn't V W A G know that asbestos w as in the 2 brakes that it w as selling, going back into the 1950s? 3 A W e m entioned that several tim es, that V W knew 4 that asbestos was used in brakes and friction parts, 5 and that was not only applicable to VW , but it was an 6 industry standard. 7 Q L et m e ask you this: did V olksw agen A G ever put 8 on its packaging or the actual brake shoe the w ord 9 "asbestos"? 10 A A t a certain point in tim e, and we spoke about 11 that before, and I believe it w as 1993, there w as the 12 obligation to indicate asbestos contained in certain 13 parts by using a tem plate, and V W certainly m et that 14 requirem ent. 15 Q Fair enough. 16 W ith respect to brakes, w hich stopped being 17 m anufactured w ith asbestos in 1986, the w ord "asbestos" 18 never show ed up on the packaging or the actual product, 19 as placed by V olksw agen; correct? 20 A A t least, I don't know any o f such docum ents 21 that w ould contain such a warning. 22 Q And you also read the depositions o f M r Kolm s 23 and M r Cam eron in the past; right? 24 COU RT REPORTER: W as that Cameron? 25 M R JA GOLINZER: Cameron, C-A-M -E-R-O-N. Page 126 1 COURT REPORTER: Thank you. 2 M R M A RK S: Form. 3 TH E W ITN ESS: I read the one o f M r Kolms, 4 yes. 5 BY M R JAGOLINZER: 6 Q Okay, and from his testim ony -- well, strike 7 that. 8 You were aw are that M r Kolm s, on behalf o f 9 V olksw agen, testified that there never were such 10 warnings or inform ation on the actual products o f 11 brakes; correct? 12 A T hat is w hat M r K olm s stated in his deposition 13 at that tim e, yes. 14 Q And, in 1993, w hen you said that V olksw agen was 15 putting som e w arnings about asbestos on products, did 16 that apply only to gaskets? 17 A As far as I know , all parts containing asbestos 18 had to be indicated or labeled like that. 19 Q I apologize. I m ean, V olksw agen -- 20 V olksw agen -- in 1993, V olksw agen, the only 21 asbestos-containing part that you've testified that was 22 still in use w as a gasket; correct? 23 M R M A RK S: Form. 24 T H E W ITN E SS: '92/'93 in the tim efram e. 25 Page 127 1 B Y M R JA G O LIN ZER: 2 Q Right. 3 So, in 1992293, there w as no m ore 4 asbestos-containing brakes or clutches put out by 5 V olksw agen; correct? 6 M R M A RK S: Form . 7 T H E W ITN E SS: C ontaining asbestos? 8 B Y M R JA G O LIN ZER: 9 Q Yes? 10 A T hey w ere no longer existing. 11 Q Right. 12 So, first off, the 1993 regulation, that is a 13 G erm an regulation; right? 14 A That w as a G erm an regulation. 15 Q A nd that only applies to V olksw agen m aking a 16 product -- gaskets -- th at had asbestos for sale in 17 G erm any; correct? 18 M R M A RK S: Form . 19 T H E W ITN E SS: T he regulation w as only 20 applicable to G erm any. 21 W hether the packaging going into other 22 countries contained that label, I have no inform ation 23 about that. 24 B Y M R JA G O LIN ZER: 25 Q A n d i f I 'm c o n c e r n e d a b o u t M r C la r k a n d w h a t P ag e 128 1 inform ation w as on the packaging as it related to his 2 tim e in C anada, o r the U nited States, that 1993 3 regulation doesn't apply; correct? 4 M R M A RK S: Form , foundation. 5 TH E W ITN ESS: This regulation is o f 1993, and 6 M r C lark w as significantly earlier w orking in Canada 7 and the U nited States. 8 BY M R JAGOLINZER: 9 Q Right. So you agree w ith m e that that 10 regulation d oesn't apply to M r C lark's exposure; 11 correct? 12 M R M A RK S: Form , foundation. 13 T H E W ITN ESS: I don't know w hat th at has to 14 do w ith M r C lark's exposition, but the regulation w as 15 n ot applicable yet. 16 BY M R JAGOLINZER: 17 Q Okay. 18 V olksw agen o f G erm any only placed a warning 19 or a hazard about asbestos on any o f its products in 20 response to the G erm an governm ent's actions; correct? 21 A It w as a reg u latio n , a n d V W co m p lied w ith it. 22 Q Yes, and V W didn't voluntarily decide to put a 23 caution on its products until the G erm an regulation w as 24 issued; correct? 25 A T hat is correct, because V W also didn't see the 32 (Pages 125 to 128) Page 129 1 necessity to do so. 2 Q A nd y ou agree, V W also didn't do the testing 3 necessary to determ ine the levels o f exposure to 4 asbestos that a m echanic w ould actually experience 5 w hile changing brakes and/or clutches? 6 M R M A RK S: Form. 7 T H E W ITN ESS: A s stated, V W alw ays strived to 8 provide safe w orkplaces, and dust m easurem ent were 9 perform ed in order to make sure o f that, and VW , thus, 10 lived up to their responsibility to provide safe 11 w ork p laces. 12 BY M R JAGOLINZER: 13 Q D r A lbers, you're talking about safe 14 w orkplaces; correct? 15 A Yes. 16 Q I'm talking about safely w orking w ith 17 V olksw agen's ow n products. 18 Do you understand the difference? 19 A M aybe you can elaborate a little bit on that? 20 Q Sure. 21 V olksw agen A G has its ow n w orkplace in its 22 facility, and you're using that, for exam ple, as the 23 W olfburg [sic] plant -- the W olfsburg plant; correct? 24 A A s an exam ple, yes. 25 Q R ight, and, for the exam ple, you're talking Page 131 1 wasn't any increased risk. 2 BY MR JAGOLINZER: 3 Q Okay. Let's break that down into two sections. 4 MR MARKS: We're at 5 o'clock. 5 MR JAGOLINZER: Yeah, I'm going to finish 6 this now and then w e can go off; all right? 7 Q What steps did Volkswagen itself take to ensure 8 that asbestos fibers were not being released into the 9 air when workers were working with brakes and/or 10 clutches in its normal repair? 11 MR MARKS: Form. 12 THE WITNESS: You mean workers outside o f 13 Volkswagen? 14 BY MR JAGOLINZER: 15 Q Yes, sir. 16 What steps did Volkswagen take to ensure that 17 the products it sold out into the public wouldn't cause 18 injury to those who they expect to work with it? 19 MR MARKS: Form. 2 0 THE WITNESS: A s stated, the products are and 2 1 were safe, and there were instructions to workshops how 2 2 to remove and install such parts, and the workplaces 2 3 where such work was performed, and for the safety o f 2 4 those work areas, that wasin the responsibility o f the 2 5 corresponding owner o f the workshops or repair shops. P age 130 1 about V olksw agen A G 's actual em ployees to protect; 2 correct? 3 A Correct. 4 Q Okay. 5 Sir, does V olksw agen A G believe it has a duty 6 to sell products that are safe for users to use? 7 M R M ARKS: Form. 8 THE W ITNESS: According to m y knowledge and 9 conviction, V W only sold safe products. 10 BY M R JAGOLINZER: 11 Q W hat steps did V olksw agen AG take, during the 12 tim e it sold asbestos-containing brakes or clutches, to 13 determ ine whether or not the norm al use o f those 14 products would present a health hazard? 15 A There are num erous studies out there, am ong 16 them by the BG, which show that w orkers dealing with 17 brake jo b s are not exposed to a higher risk. 18 Q Okay. 19 Sir, I asked a question o f w hat steps did 20 V olksw agen A G take to determ ine w hether the products it 21 was selling w ere safe for use b y the public? 22 M R M ARKS: Form. 23 TH E W ITN ESS: A s stated, V W only brought safe 24 products on the market, and, if those products were 25 installed properly, then that also m eant that there Page 132 1 BY M R JAGOLINZER: 2 Q So V olksw agen A G sold a product under a 3 V olksw agen genuine product nam e, correct, for exam ple, 4 a V olksw agen genuine replacem ent brake and/or clutch, 5 th at contained asbestos prior to 1986, let's say, and 6 did no tests to ensure that the regular w ork w ith those 7 products w ould be safe; correct? 8 M R M ARKS: Form. 9 TH E W ITN ESS: Yes. A s I stated before, V W 10 m easured at the w orkplaces and took sam ples at the 11 w orkplaces. 12 BY M R JAGOLINZER: 13 Q A re you referring to sam ples o f the asbestos 14 fiber that w ould be released w hen one changes a brake? 15 A I believe I didn't get that. 16 Q N o problem . 17 V olksw agen w ould expect th at brakes on its 18 cars would have to be changed; correct? 19 A From tim e to tim e, yes. 20 Q Okay, and, in order to m eet the need to replace 21 those brakes, V olksw agen w ouldsell a V olksw agen 22 genuine replacem ent brake; correct? 23 A An original, genuine part, correct. 24 Q Sold under the V olksw agen tradem ark logo name; 25 correct? 33 (Pages 129 to 132) P age 133 1 A Yes. 2 Q A nd V olksw agen A G certainly knew that those 3 brakes w ould have to be replaced; right? 4 A A fter a certain wear. 5 Q A nd have you seen any docum ents, prior to 1986, 6 in V olksw agen's files, w here V olksw agen w as studying 7 the potential release o f asbestos fiber from changing 8 o f those brakes? 9 A I don't know any V W ow n studies, only the ones 10 from the B G and other scientific institutions. 11 Q Okay. 12 W hat is the earliest docum ent th at you've 13 seen from the B G o r any scientific institution that 14 tested the level o f exposure to asbestos w hen changing 15 a brake? 16 A I don't have a certain y ear and num ber in the 17 top o f my head. 18 Q Okay. 19 W ell, w e're going to be -- 20 M R M A R K S: W e're -- 21 M R JA G O LIN ZER: I got to finish this area, 22 C hris, I'm sorry. 23 M R M A R K S: Y eah, w e're going an hour, so 24 w e've got to take a break. 25 M R JA G O L IN Z E R : I g o t it. I n eed to finish P age 135 1 evening. 2 M R JA G O LIN Z ER : G o off. I f you're done, 3 you're done. I f you're saying w e're done now , w e're 4 done. 5 M R M A R K S: Y eah, th at's w h at I'm saying. 6 So, if you have one or tw o questions on this 7 line o f questioning -- 8 M R JA GOLINZER: I w ould love to say I have 9 one or tw o questions, b u t I don 't think I'm getting a 10 straight answ er to any o f m y questions -- 11 M R M A RK S: W ell -- 12 M R JA G O LIN Z ER : -- so I'll continue tom orrow . 13 M R M A RKS: -- I disagree. I disagree. 14 M R JA G O LIN Z ER : Fair. T hat's fine. 15 M R M A RK S: W e'll resum e in the m orning. 16 M R JA G O LIN Z ER : T hat's fine. 17 M R M A R K S : W e ta lk e d a b o u t sto p p in g a t 5. 18 M R JA G O L IN Z E R : L et's do it. L et's do it. 19 M R M A RKS: A ctually, we talked about stopping 20 at 4, and it's now 5:08. 21 M R JA G O LIN Z ER : T hat's fair. 22 M R M A R K S : S o ... 23 M R JA G O LIN ZER: W e're going to break for the 24 evening. 25 M R MARKS: Good. Page 134 1 this area before w e take a break. I'll go quick and 2 then we can move on, but I need to get this part done. 3 M R M A R K S: W ell, I m ean -- 4 M R JA GOLINZER: I'm in the m iddle o f a 5 question, Chris, in this area. Let m e finish. 6 Or, if you w ant to go out to take a break, 7 feel free, but I don't w ant you talking to the witness 8 on this part. 9 M R M ARKS: I'm not talking to the witness. 10 M R JA G O L IN Z E R : G o fo r it. 11 M R M A RK S: I'm telling you th at -- 12 M R JA G O L IN Z E R : G o fo r it. 13 M R M A R K S : -- w e're sto p p in g a t 5 -- 14 M R JAGOLINZER: M mm hmm. 15 M R M A RKS: -- and it's now 5:05 and we've 16 been going an hour. So you can resume tom orrow m orning 17 w ith this line o f questioning. 18 M R JA G O L IN Z E R : Y eah, w ell ... 19 M R M ARKS: I mean, if you literally have one 20 o r tw o questions to fin ish th is line o f q u estioning -- 21 M R JAGOLINZER: You know what? You know 22 w hat? Fair enough. W e'll take a break, and w e'll get 23 into it. 24 G o fo r it. W e can go. 25 M R M ARKS: No, we're not going into the P age 136 1 D id you get an answ er to the last question? 2 M R JA G O LIN Z ER : I have no idea, but it 3 doesn't m atter. W e'll go back. 4 T hank you. W e're going to go off. 5 (W hereupon the deposition w as adjourned at 5:08 p.m. 6 until the follow ing day) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 34 (Pages 133 to 136) P age 137 1 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 2 3 I, D EIR D RA JORDAN, a British C ourt Reporter, 4 hereby certify that the testim ony o f the witness DR. 5 JUERGEN ALBERS, in the foregoing transcript, numbered 6 pages 1 through 136, taken on this 9th day o f April, 7 2019, was recorded by me in machine shorthand and was 8 thereafter transcribed by me; and that the foregoing 9 transcript is a true and accurate verbatim record o f 10 the said testimony. 11 12 I further certify that I am not a relative, 13 employee, counsel or financially involved w ith any o f 14 the parties to the w ithin cause, nor am I an employee 15 or relative o f any counsel for the parties, nor am I 16 in any w ay interested in the outcome o f the within 17 cause. 18 19 20 Signed: <% 10474,Signature% > 21 Name: DEIRDRA JORDAN 22 Date: M onday, April 22, 2019 23 24 25 Page 139 1 ERRATA SHEET 2 Dep: DR. JUERGEN ALBERS - Taken Tuesday, April 9, 2019 3 Page/Line From To 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 / 8 / 9 / 10 / 11 / 12 / 13 / 14 / 15 / 16 / 17 / 18 / 19 / 20 / 21 / 22 23 Signed 24 DR. JUERGEN ALBERS 25 Date Page 138 1 CERTIFICATE OF W ITNESS 2 3 I, D R . JU E R G E N A L B E R S , d eclare th a t I have read th e 4 entire transcript o f m y deposition testim ony contained 5 in pages 1 through 136 inclusive, or the same has been 6 read to me, and certify that it is a true, correct and 7 com plete transcript o f m y testim ony given on A pril 9, 8 2019, save and except for changes and/or corrections, 9 if any, as indicated by me on the attached Errata 10 Sheets, w ith the understanding that I offer these 11 changes and/or corrections as if still under oath. 12 13 14 15 Signed 16 DR. JUERGEN ALBERS 17 D ated this day of 2019 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 VERITEXT LEGAL SOLUTIONS One Biscayne Tower, Suite 2250 2 2 South Biscayne Boulevard Miami, Florida 33131 3 305-376-8800 April 23, 2019 4 Dr. Juergen Albers 5 c/o CHRISTOPHER S. MARKS TANENBAUM KEALE LLP 6 701 Pike Street, Ste. 1575 Seattle, W A 98101 7 cm arks@ tktrial.com 8 RE: Clark, Robert G -vs- Borg Warner Corporation, Et Al 9 Dear Mr. Marks: 10 taken on 4/9/19 in connection with the above-captioned 11 case, please be advised that the transcript of the deposition has been completed and is awaiting 12 signature. 13 Please have your client read the transcript and complete the errata page. Upon completion, please send the signed 14 errata to our office at Two South Biscayne Blvd., Ste. 2250, Miami, FL, 33131, or email it to litsup-fla@veritext.com. 15 I f this is not taken care of, however, within the 16 next 30 days, we shall conclude that the reading and signing of the deposition has been waived and 17 the original, which has already been forwarded to the ordering attorney, may be filed with the Clerk 18 o f the Court without further notice. 19 Sincerely, 20 21 Production Department Veritext Florida 22 23 24 25 35 (Pages 137 to 140) EXHIBIT G To Mailing list From Health Protection Wolfsburg Your reference Your message from Our house extension [redacted] 0 1 /1 9 /1 9 8 1 X Internal notice Notice number Our reference Date Page 1594/0 Dr. [redacted] 01/09/1981 1 Subject: Use of asbestos or asbestos-containing materials The harmful effect of asbestos is today a general state of knowledge. Deposits of asbestos fine dust or asbestos-containing fine dust in the lungs lead to asbestosis and/or cancer. The Occupational Health and Safety Committee and its task force for Occupational Medicine and Safety Chemistry, therefore, dealt with the use of asbestos or asbestos-containing material at VW-Wolfsburg and listed occupational safety in which departments asbestos materials are processed. Thereafter, asbestos-containing material is processed or used in your area. The following actions must be taken immediately: 1. Exchange these asbestos-containing materials with asbestos-free materials as far as possible, 2. or restrict their use, 3. Review of the processing methods, 4. When processing asbestos or asbestos-containing materials, ensure appropriate protective measures of the workers concerned if fine dust is to be expected during processing. These protective measures include appropriate personal respiratory protection and possibly suction devices. 5. In the case of exposure to asbestos in accordance with the TRK values, the affected plant members must be listed (updated regularly) and subjected to health protection for suitability and surveillance examinations and must be brought to follow-up care after he ended the job containing asbestos. Reference is made to the accident prevention regulation "Protection against harmful mineral dust". Thresholds: New installations Incidentally Beginning 07/01/1982 TRK values Asbestos fine dust 0.05 mg/m3or 1 fiber /cm3 0.10 mg/m3or 2 fibers /cm3 0.05 mg/m3or 1 fiber /cm3 Asbestos containing fine dust 2.0 mg/m3 4.0 mg/m3 2.0 mg/m3 Form AV 87 - 10 76 CONFIDENTIAL PENGAD 800-631-6989 EXHIBIT EW 19 01/11/2019 Clark vs. VWAG (Ferraro) - 00000100 EXHIBIT H Telephone conversation w ith M r. [re d a cte d ]: S afety re g u la tio n s till valid Safety regulation fit number 10 Occupational safety As of: Replaced: 08/01/1983 05/10/1982 Page 1 of 2 - Asbestos dust - Silicogenic dust - If materials containing asbestos or more than 2% free crystalline silica are used, this must be reported to the trade association and the Trade Supervisory Board by the Occupational Safety Department. Asbestos lightweight panels with a density < 1.0 g/cm3 must not be used. This prohibition also applies to materials containing asbestos and are used - for spray on or spraying - as insulating materials or insulation for fire, sound, heat, cold or moisture protection - as paints, putties, adhesives, filters, mortar and filler compounds, floor and road coverings, if asbestos fine dust occurs. If silicone-based or asbestos-based dust can be generated during work, then air-analytical monitoring must be carried out. The determination and assessment of the dust conditions are made at the request of the safety chemistry. Regardless of dust measurements or structural measures taken, the following points should be noted when asbestos or silicogenic dust occurs: 1. The existing suctions must be switched on before commencing work. 2. If despite technical and organizational measures, it cannot be achieved that the respiratory air can be sufficiently freed of silicogenic or asbestos dusts, respiratory protective equipment must be used. The requirement of the respiratory protection equipment must be made via form Pr 52. 3. Workrooms, machinery and equipment are to be cleaned so that no dust is whirled up if possible. For cleaning, only vacuum cleaners or sweepers approved for this purpose may be used. 4. All technical equipment used to remove dust in the respiratory air must be maintained so that its full effectiveness is maintained at all times. This also applies to respiratory protection equipment. The maintenance and care of these devices are carried out by the respiratory protection unit of the Fire Protection Department. Form Pr 968 - 00292 - u - 5 83 :abbies PLA IN TIFFS EXHIBIT 24 CONFIDENTIAL Clark vs. VWAG (Ferraro) - 00000080 Occupational safety Safety regulation number 10 00000080 As of: Replaced: 08/01/1983 05/10/1982 Page 2 of 2 5. If silicogenic or asbestos dust may be whirled up during work, it must be instructed by the company supervisor before commencing work that the affected group of persons be sent to a suitability test by the Health Protection Department. For repeat examinations, the interval specified by the authorized physician must be observed. According to the work order, the company supervisor is responsible for compliance. 6. If symptoms (shortness of breath, coughing, weight loss, bad general condition) occur between the examinations, the company doctor must be consulted immediately. Form Pr 968 - 00292 - u - 5 83 CONFIDENTIAL Clark vs. VWAG (Ferraro) - 00000081 EXHIBIT I M r ./M rs ./M s D e p a rtm e n t / S ite TO : fre d a c te d l S e rv ic e S ta tio n Statement information and return information and filing ______ _______ W ith th e I re q u e s t fo r Translation /Edit ______ Consultation as discussed verbal by phone q Execution ____ Best regards D r. m e d . [re d a c te d ] i llegible] International Congress Center, Berlin FROM : Name [re d a c te d ] House phone [r e d a c te d ] FormAV32- 177 P la n t P h y s ic ia n V o lk s w a g e n A G 3 1 6 0 W o lfs b u rg 1 2 /1 5 /1 9 8 2 polluted areas [illegible] areas heat supply waste management The future will also be affected by damaging environmental effects by means of a stronger focus of spatial planning on the objectives of the project to achieve emission protection. For the first tim e in the series of public events, the VDI Commission fo r Clean Air w ill be organizing a Spatial Planning Conference as a thematic focal point. domestic fuel, vehicle traffic) Urban climate, measurement data and models Problems of urban development from an interdisciplinary point of view (Urban development, ecology, economy) Institutional Instruments (Municipal Environmental Planning, Political Science, Legislators, Trade Control). The colloquium is aimed at science, administration and industry professionals involved in emission reduction and pollution control legislation, regional planning, municipal development planning and land use planning, environmental sanitation and urban climatology. Information issued: VDI-Commission Clean Air, PO Box 1139, D-4000 Dusseldorf 1, Phone: (0211) 62 14-4 51, 532 From the w ork of the Germ an Institute for O ccupational Safety - BIA Asbestos emissions from brake lining processing machines B ra k e s e rv ic e w o rk s h o p s f o r tru c k s a n d b u s e s u s e in c re a s in g ly b ra k e p a d s p ro c e s s in g m a c h in e s f o r o v e r -re v v in g o f u s e d a n d n e w b ra k e p a d s , w h ic h a re p la c e d d ir e c tly o n th e a x le w it h o u t d is a s s e m b ly o f th e b ra k e s h o e c a rrie r. T h e re s u ltin g d u s t c o n ta in s a s b e s to s fib e rs , w h ic h g e t in to th e re s p ira to ry a ir o f th e e m p lo y e e s and, d e p e n d in g on th e c o n c e n tr a tio n a n d e x p o s u re tim e , c a n le a d to d a m a g in g h e a lth e ffe c ts . E x te n s iv e m e a s u re m e n ts of dust c o n c e n tra tio n s a t w o rk p la c e s in b ra ke w o rk s h o p s sh o w e d th a t 1. th e d u s t c o n c e n tra tio n s v a ry g re a tly d e p e n d in g o n th e w o r k in te n s ity , s p a tia l a n d v e n tila tio n c o n d itio n s as w e ll as th e ty p e o f b ra k e p a d s a n d th e p ro c e s s in g m a c h in e . 2. th e a s b e s to s fin e d u s t c o n c e n tra tio n e x c e e d s th e TR K v a lu e o f 0 .0 5 m g /m 3 o n a v e ra g e if n o d u s t re d u c tio n m e a s u re s h a ve b e e n ta k e n , 3. a d u s t s u c tio n a t th e p o in t o f o rig in o f th e d u s t (o n th e tu r n in g s te e l) le a d s o n a v e ra g e to a s a fe d e v ia tio n b e lo w th e TR K v a lu e (n o m e a s u re d v a lu e w a s a b o v e th e T R K v a lu e ). It c a n b e d e riv e d fr o m th is t h a t b y u s in g s u ita b le d u s t re d u c tio n m e a s u re s (e .g . e ffe c tiv e d u s t s u c tio n o n th e ro ta tin g s te e l) , c o n c e n tr a tio n s in th e r e s p ir a to r y a ir o f th e e m p lo y e e s c a n b e a c h ie v e d fa r b e lo w th e T R K v a lu e s . T h e G e rm a n In s titu te fo r O c c u p a tio n a l S a f e ty - B IA is c u r r e n t ly c a r r y in g o u t fu n d a m e n ta l in v e s tig a tio n s , fin a n c ia lly s u p p o rte d by th e p ro je c t sponsor H u m a n iz a t io n o f W o r k in g L ife (P T H d A ), in o rd e r to d e te rm in e th e "s u ita b ility " o f th e d u s t m itig a tio n m e a s u re s a n d to d e v e lo p s a fe ty r e q u ir e m e n ts t h a t f o r m th e b a s is o f a p a rtia l te s t w ith in th e m e a n in g o f th e E q u ip m e n t S a fe ty A c t. T h e te s ts c a rrie d o u t so fa r o n th e te s t s ta n d c o n firm th e tre n d s o b s e rv e d in b ra k e s e rv ic e p ra c tic e a n d t h a t it is a n t ic ip a te d th a t te s t-te c h n ic a l re q u ire m e n ts ca n b e d ra w n u p s h o rtly , as h a v e a lre a d y b e e n p u b lis h e d f o r h a n d - g u id e d d e v ic e s f o r a s b e s to s c e m e n t p ro c e s s in g (Z H 1 /6 1 6 , B IA -In fo rm a tio n 2 /8 2 ) G . K u h n e n [S T 1 7 1 6 1 ] 428 Dust - Clean air 42 (1982) No. 11 November CONFIDENTIAL Clark vs. VWAG (Ferraro) - 00000098 Attachment to the investigation report no. 2992 Pollutant measurement in the power plant, Wolfsburg a) Temperature No, Date Time b) Rel. humidity Place c) Air pressure 1 03/03/19 09:00 AM - 01:00 PM a) 31C Power plant north b) 33% Height 8 m c) 1007 mbar Turbine (A) No. M 7370 2 03/04/19 08:03 AM - 12:03 PM a) 44C Power plant north b) 29% Height 8 m c) 1009 mbar Turbine (D) No.M 00707 3 03/05/19 01:40 PM - 03:22 PM a) 19C Power plant north b) 46% Height 8 m c) 1006 mbar Turbine (A) No. M 7370 4 03/06/19 08:02 AM - 09:18 AM a) 27C Power plant north b) 42% Height 8 m c) 991 mbar Turbine (A) No. M 7370 5 03/06/19 12:30 PM - 01:36 PM a) 28C Power plant north b) 40% Height 8 m c) 988 mbar Turbine (A) No. M 7370 6 03/07/19 08:00 AM - 09:56 AM a) 22C b) 50% c) 977 mbar 7 03/07/19 !1:05 AM - 02:02 PM a) 18C b) 5 % c) 978 mbar Power plant north Tube sheet 4 m below the turbine M 7370 Power plant north Cinder cellar 0 m below the turbine M 7370 Machine output or function 37 rpm Idle speed % asbestos content in fine dust 19.2 3000 rpm Full load < 100 Removal of the 9.2 outer asbestos insulation Removal of the 10.8 inner asbestos insulation Cleaning of the high-pre: 20.4 part from the remains of asbestos insulation using wire brush and industria vacuum cleaner Bagging of the 10.8 asbestos insulation by hand Bagging of the 3.12 asbestos insulation by shove Process department/Process Planning and Coordination - Security chemistry - Fine dust 0.048 mg/m3 Assess. Index concentration TRK 0.09 TRK value 0.519 mg/m3 0.598 mg/m3 < 0.60 0.1000 mg/m3 0.756 mg/m3 0.70 1.087 mg/m3 1.53 mg/m3 1.65 0.926 mg/m3 2.124 mg/m3 4.33 0.49 mg/m3 0.861 mg/m3 0.93 0.669 mg/m3 0.21 0.926 mg/m3 3.21 mg/m3 CONFIDENTIAL Clark vs. VWAG (Ferraro) - 00000097 [logo - illegible] 03/20/1981 80Beg05343 Dipl. Ing. [redacted] Hanover 03/23/1981 Occupational safety D/ Mr. [redacted], KD workshop Health hazards due to dusts of asbestos-containing brake pads in motor vehicle workshops The development and implementation of the accident prevention directive "Protection against harmful mineral dust" showed that there are particular difficulties in assessing the health risk of occupational groups exposed to low concentrations or exposed for short periods of tim e. At that time, the knowledge was not sufficient to be able to decide to what extent there was a health risk due to the dust of asbestos-containing brake linings in motor vehicle workshops. From this decision, it depended, whether technical protective measures are required when processing brake linings and when cleaning brakes with compressed air (brake drums, brake shoe carriers, brake linings); employees who work on brake pads or clean brakes must undergo preventive occupational medical examinations. A Research was started therefore in 1972, which should provide information on the following questions. 1. What dust concentrations do occur at workplaces where asbestos-containing brake pads are processed or at which abrasion of brake linings reaches the respiratory air, and what is the asbestos content in this dust? 2. How is the biological effect of these dusts to be assessed, in particular with regard to fibrogen and carcinogenicity? 3. For persons who have been subjected to the dusting of asbestos-containing brake linings for a prolonged period (at least 10 years) - are there any health impairments or damage to health (diseases) that can be attributed to this exposure? The processing of brake pads as part of their production was also included in the investigations. The investigation program included 1. dust measurements for the determination of mass concentration and asbestos content of the airborne dust at a representative number of working places; 2. laboratory and test stand tests to determine possible mineralogical chemical changes of the asbestos by the mechanical and thermal stresses of the brake pads during braking; 3. animal and cell experiments to determine the fibrogenic and carcinogenic effect of dusts occurring (no inhalation tests); [logo] May 1980 4. Medical examinations of a sufficient number of persons who were exposed to the occurring dusts as often as possible at the same workplace for many years. The results can be summarized as follows: 1. Brake pads of m otor vehicles contain 10 to 70 percent by weight of asbestos, essentially 20 and 30 percent by weight. In all cases examined, it was chrysotile asbestos. Other types of asbestos are obviously not used. 2. The main sources of dust are the brake services with the processing of the brake pads and the blowing out of the abrasion from the brake drums. 3. The duration of exposure of workers is difficult to pinpoint, as the processes associated with the formation of dust are generally short-term. Guide values are 1 hour/shift, better 3 hours/week for processing, 1-3 hours/shift fo r blowing out. 4. The dust generated by the processing of brake pads contains slightly less asbestos than what is present in the brake pad itself. 5. A chrysotile asbestos accumulation could be detected only in extremely small proportions in the dust produced when blowing out the brake drums of German motor vehicles. The dust contained virtually no fibers. 6. Up to 30 % by weight of chrysotile asbestos was found in the abrasive dust of American brake pads. 7. The threshold for chrysotile asbestos at the workplace is exceeded when working on the brake pads, while in the workplace it is certainly below the limit. 8. When blowing out brake drums, the threshold fo r asbestos-containing and inert dust at the workplace are exceeded fo r a short period of time, while in the workplace it is certainly below the limit. 9. Fibers, located in the friction surface are destroyed during the braking process and the crystal lattice of the chrysotile is transformed, probably to an amorphous state. 10. The dust from the processing of the brake pads clearly has fibrogenic and carcinogenic effects. 11. The brake drum dust has rare and then only slight fibrogenic effect: a carcinogenic effect cannot be excluded. 12. Long-term brake pad dust exposure is likely to lead to f ibrogenic asbestos inhalation effects. The risk of disease is lowest in people who mostly blow out brake drums. The results justify 3 obligations: When working on brake linings, technical protective measures (e.g. encapsulation of the dust sources, dust suction on processing equipment) are required as well as occupational health precautionary examinations taking into account the exposure time. When blowing out brake drums, the short term particulate m atter concentration must be reduced by technical measures (e.g. blowing out in vacuum hoods, sucking out, washing out), and the occupational medical examinations can initially be dispensed in the case of German brake linings. Further research is needed to improve technical protection measures and to clarify the cancer risk of brake drum dusts. The results of the investigation are put into practice by integration into the further training of the supervisory bodies as well as by the distribution of information material and intensive consultation in the companies concerned. At the same time, the companies will receive technical support. Further research, e.g. on suction options with mounted rotary lathes on the stub axle brake lining are already prompted. Finally, I make an appeal to those responsible for occupational safety in companies, and in particular to the supervisory bodies. The basis for this is the successes achieved by the Northwestern Iron- and steel-trade association in the replacement of asbestos-containing partitions in ship interiors. Use the results of the research paper "Investigations on the dangers of dusts from asbestos-containing brake pads" in the consultation and monitoring of vehicle repair shops consistently and uncompromisingly. You will make a major contribution to speeding up the development, which has already been suggested by the presentation of the first asbestos-free brake linings at the IAA in Frankfurt. Address of the author: Northwestern Iron- and Steel-Trade Association Hans-Bockler-Allee 26 3000 Hanover 1 343 C EXHIBIT J SOUTH GERMAN IRON AND STEEL PROFESSIONAL ASSOCIATION (Statutory accident insurance) DISTRICT ADMINISTRATION M AINZ Health Care Protection Received: 04/24/1980 South German Iron and Steel-Professional Cooperation District A dm inistration Mainz 6500 Mainz P.O. Box 37 60 Company Volkswagenwerk AG Plant Kassel 35 K a s e l For the attention of Mr. Safety Ing. [redacted] MAINZ, 0 6 /1 9 /1 9 7 3 Diether-von-Isenburg-Strae 9-11 Phone (0 61 31) 2 35 49 Bank account Landesbank Rheinland-Pfalz, Clearing House Mainz no. 53 502 Reference: H-TA/623/0210/0/[redacted1 Please a lw a ys in d ic a te Subject: Check for possible asbestos-related hazards in the processing of asbestos dust containing materials Dear Sirs, Please find attached the measurement report from the Dust Research Institute of the main association of the industrial professional associations about the sampling on 04/17 and 04/18/1973. It is therefore apparent that the technical thresholds for chrysotile-containing fine dust (4 mg/m3) are likely to be reached or exceeded over time as a result of the work on riveting the clutch linings and cutting the Fiberfrax slabs for cooker upgrading. In both cases, therefore, a suction of the resulting dust should be made. We kindly ask for notification about the measures put in place by you by 08/30/1973. Attachment -ee- Yours sincerely, Technical Supervisory Service [redacted] :abbies PLA IN TIFFS EXHIBIT 22 CONFIDENTIAL Clark vs. VWAG (Ferraro) - i 00000872 Dust Research Institute of the main association of the industrial professional associations e. V. 53 Bonn, 06/12/1973 [redacted] Langwartweg 103 Phone: (0 22 21) 10 92 90 R EPO RT on the measurement of air pollutants at the workplace Report number: 73 00 201 0 8 Company: Volkswagenwerk AG, plant Kassel Address: 3501 Kassel-Baunatal Street: same Phone [redacted] Place of operation: same Sampling date: 04/17 - 04/18/1973 Prior measurements by the Dust Research Institute: no At the sampling constantly or temporarily present gentlemen: [redacted] Safety Ing. of the company VW [redacted] Dust Research Institute, Bonn Medical monitoring: yes Dust monitoring: no Number of reported occupational disease cases in the last three calendar years: none Number of recognized occupational disease cases in the last three calendar years: none Type of operation: Automobile manufacturing Measuring task: Check for possible asbestos-related hazards in the processing of asbestos dust containing materials Brief description of the measuring method: Sampling: Filter sampling device "VC 20" Evaluation: Determination of the fine dust concentration in mg/m3 as well as the amount of asbestos in % by means of IR analysis CONFIDENTIAL Clark vs. VWAG (Ferraro) - 00000873 Dust Research Institute of the main association of the industrial professional associations e. V. Bonn Page 2 to the measurement report number 73 00 201 08 a-j from 06/12/1973 Measurement results Consec. number Name of the place of sampling, date and time of sampling. Designation of the working method, special observations Pollutant Type Weight.% 1 Removal of the brake shoes: 04/17/1973 08:10 AM - 10:52 AM Asbestos 2 The old brake shoes are freed from the old lining by pressing down the old rivets with a compressing die. The work is carried out on an approximately 2x1 m2 work table at 4 compression dies at the same time. The brake shoes are washed before and therefore still wet. 2 Rivetting of brake shoes: 04/18/1973 08:24 AM 11:04 AM Asbestos too little New brake pads are riveted on the brake shoe carrier on three riveting machines in a narrow area. During the measurement were Energit-pads type 334 HG used. A suction does not exist. 3 Removal of clutch linings: 04/17/1973 08:00 AM - 12:00 PM Asbestos 4 The riveting of the clutch linings takes place using a single exhaust system from Meissner and Wurst, type Staubmeister with 0.5 m suction speed in the intake level. The purified air is returned to the hall. ( 4 ) Rivetting of clutch linings: 04/17/1973 08:25 AM - 12:25 PM Asbestos 36 The riveted clutch disc carriers are again provided with discs on both sides, with a softer pad on one side and a harder pad on the other. Measured concentration[mg/m3] Total dust CG Fine dust DF 1.9 Pollutant CS 0.13 0.48 0.02 0.41 0.15 Assessment index *) Concentrt. Threshold 0.48 0.13 1.0 *) Basis of assessment: Currently valid xxxxxx The results refer to the conditions during sampling. technical thresholds (VBG 119) (Clerk) [redacted] CONFIDENTIAL Clark vs. VWAG (Ferraro) - 00000874 Dust Research Institute of the main association of the industrial professional associations e. V. Bonn Page 2a to the measurement report number 73 00 201 08 a-j from 06/12/1973 Measurement results Consec. number 5 6 7 8 0 Name of the place of sampling, date and time of sampling. Designation of the working method, special observations Heat exchanger dismantling, dust level in the hall: 04/17/1973 01:45 PM - 05:45 PM Heat exchanger dismantling - trimming tables: 04/17/1973 01:45 PM - 05:45 PM There are exhaust pipes or mufflers (heat exchanger) freed from the old asbestos insulation casing. The heat exchangers are knocked out of the jacket on a pull-down table with additional side and rear cladding. Electrical department Insulation work on casting pipes Dust level in the hall: 04/18/1973 08:08 AM - 11:50 AM + 02:00 PM - 03:22 PM The filling pipes for aluminum casting are wrapped with asbestos tapes or unpacked after wear. The unwinding of the casting tubes results in visually recognizable slight dust turbulence. A suction is not available. Electrical department Wrapping and unwinding of the filling pipes 04/18/1973 08:08 AM - 11:50 AM + 02:00 Pm - 03:22 PM Cooker extension cutting of Fiberfrax panels 04/18/1973 08:15 AM - 08:30 AM Material is sawed and processed. The cutting is done with a jigsaw about 2 hours a day, suction is not available despite heavy dust accumulation. Pollutant Type Weight.% Asbestos Asbestos too little substance too little substance Asbestos 6 Asbestos 6 Asbestos 6 Measured concentration[mg/m3] Total dust CG - Fine dust DF 0.14 Pollutant CS - 0.2 0.37 0.02 0.64 0.04 6.4 0.38 Assessment index *) Concentrt. Threshold - 0.13 0.27 2.5 *) Basis of assessment: Currently valid xxxxxx The results refer to the conditions during sampling. technical thresholds (VBG 119) (Clerk) [redacted] CONFIDENTIAL Clark vs. VWAG (Ferraro) - 00000875 EXHIBIT K VOLKSWAGEN To M A I LI N G LI ST From Aggregate Preparation Your reference Your message from Our reference [redacted] Internal notice M eeting X Notice number House extension [redacted] Date Page 10/31/1988 1 Exceeding the tripping threshold (asbestos dust) during brake shoe preparation (riveting). Meeting in the Aggregate Preparation on 10/28/1988 PROCESS DEPARTMENT 11/02/19 [redacted] 1,7 4 5 KASSEL PLANT The following asbestos-containing (drum) brake linings are processed for customer service requirements in Braunschweig: Participants: [redacted] [redacted] [redacted] [redacted] [redacted] [redacted] [redacted] [redacted] [redacted] - Health Protection - Health Protection - Process Department - Process Department - Occupational Safety - Workers Council - Workers Council - Aggregate Preparation - Aggregate Preparation 1. Brake shoes - riveting In the last asbestos dust measurement and safety-chemical evaluation, was for the first time in years during brake shoe riveting an evaluation index of I = 0.264 determined, thus the threshold trigger was exceeded. The meeting served to discuss dust-reducing and control measures. Previous history: Beginning August 1980, the old brake shoes are washed before riveting and then riveted. Thus, at the previous location in Hall 4, valuation indices of 0.09 to 0.10 were achieved with still a double TRK value and without a triggering threshold. With the relocation to Hall 3, a container for rewetting the brake shoes before riveting was additionally installed because of the longer transport routes and times after washing from Hall 4 to Hall 3. In addition, the general dust load is higher in hall 3 than in hall 4. Still, approximately 50% of the old brake shoes delivered from the organization for processing have asbestos-containing linings, But the ratio is declining due to the gradual conversion to asbestos-free brake pads in the series between 03/1985 and 07/1987. A recognition of asbestoscontaining/asbestos-free linings on old brake shoes is not possible. Form AV 87 7 85 M a terial no. 2060 :abbies: PLA IN TIFFS EXHIBIT 27 CONFIDENTIAL Clark vs. VWAG (Ferraro) - 00000650 VOLKSWAGEN To M A I LI N G LI ST From Aggregate Preparation Your reference Your message from Our reference [redacted] X House extension [redacted] Internal notice M eeting Notice number Date 10/31/1988 [illegible] Page 2 The following measures were adopted to reduce the I of 0.264 at riveting: 1. From 10/26/1988 on will the water, which is used to wet the brake shoes before riveting, be mixed with 5% glycerol. 2. The work table, on which the riveting machine will be operated, is equipped with a perforated plate as a worktop including a water tank below. 3. To clean the work area a suitable vacuum cleaner class C will be bought, offers from Ruwac and from the company Nilfisk are on the way. A new measurement will be performed after the implementation of all changes. 2. Brake shoes - rivetting (asbestos-containing) In May 88, most of the AT brake shoes were converted from manufacturing to asbestos-free pads. Only 6 types (of which 2 types have not been required for months) have not yet been converted from production to asbestos-free. The share is also falling. The September production of 22,810 sets (each 4 pieces) had a share of 1,675, which corresponds to 7.3%. As of December 1988, 3 other types will be converted to asbestos-free. 113 698 237 H/HX will be 237 Q/QX 131 698 237 C/CX will be 237 Q/QX 113 698 237 C/CX will be 537 Q/QX As of today, there is no release for asbestos-free linings for the following types: 171 698 527 D/DX September program 900 sets, trend declining 331 698 527 / X last requirement in April 1988 527 A/AX lest requirement before inventory 1987. [redacted] calls for the discontinuation of these brake shoes or the short-term conversion to asbestos-free. The current demands of the program period Nov. 1988 are still fulfilled. The spare parts program, spare parts scheduling, and logistics/production control will be informed about the discontinuation. [redacted] Mailing list: Participants Form AV 87 7 85 M a terial no. 2060 CONFIDENTIAL Clark vs. VWAG (Ferraro) - i 00000651 EXHIBIT L To Mailing list From Health Protection Your reference Your message from Our reference Dr. [redacted] X Internal notice Notice number House extension [redacted] Date Page 10/14/1987 1 Packaging of asbestos-containing parts As part of inspections on 10/06/1987 in the spare parts warehouse and on 10/13/1987 in the CKD were measures between operators, process technology, occupational safety, health protection and works council coordinated, to further minimize the exposure to asbestos. The workplaces must be kept free of dust with the aid of special vacuum cleaners; the employee wears a 3M mask (P 2-filter) and dust measurements are taken again. The process engineering will also investigate how high the asbestos content of each part is and whether asbestos-free substitutes are available. The implementation of occupational health check ups with notification of the exposed persons to the Northwest Iron and Steel Trade Association is made dependent on the result of the dust measurements. However, the above rules can only be considered as provisional measures. Until the general conversion to asbestos-free materials, all necessary packaging work on a workplace optimized by extraction should be carried out by a small defined group of people. The present solution, which distributes these activities across multiple departments, different employees and in large rooms, leads to uncontrolled asbestos dust contamination and exposure. Remedial measures appear urgent and should be initiated before the results of the dust measurements are presented. Due to the carcinogenic effect of asbestos fibers, also low asbestos dust values require a corresponding procedure. [redacted] Dr. [redacted] Mailing list: Mr.[plural] [redacted], Production Planning [redacted], Plant Technology [redacted], 2-VT-2 Dispatch [redacted], Vehicle Assembly II [redacted], VF-33 Spare parts external warehouse Dr. [redacted], Production Planning Surfaces and process technique [redacted], Occupational Safety [redacted], Workers Council Form AV 87 7 85 M a terial no. 2060 tabbies PLA IN TIFFS EXHIBIT 25 CONFIDENTIAL Clark vs. VWAG (Ferraro) 00001573 EXHIBIT M To Mr. [redacted], Prototyping Department From Process Department/Process planning and coordination X Internal notice Notice number Your reference Your message from Our house extension [redacted] Our reference 1493-[redacted] [redacted] [redacted] Date Page 03/18/1980 1 Asbestos dust concentration measurement in workshop 73 Based on your internal communication, we performed an asbestos dust concentration measurement on the brake pad grinding machine on 01/24/1980 in workshop 73, field C 36. The sampling took place in the breathing area of the grinder. The evaluation of the filter showed a fine dust content of 0.19 mg/m3. Asbestos dust has a technical standard concentration (TSC) value of 2 fibers/cm3 air. The determined result of the evaluated filter resulted in less than 0.02 fibers/cm3 of air. This is less than 1% of the technical standard concentration (TSC) value. [redacted] [redacted] [redacted] [redacted] EXHIBIT E W 14 01/11/2019 Form AV 87 - 10 76 See also consecutive num ber: 1 9 6 /8 2 Consecutive num ber: 3 4 /7 9 CONFIDENTIAL Clark vs. VWAG (Ferraro) - 00000283 V O LKSW A G E N W E R K Analysis task Sender Dust samples on filter Material samples Date: 01/24/1980 Plant WOB Reference: M O Sampling on Cost center 1 4 9 3 Phone 0 1 /2 4 /1 9 8 0 Assigned cost center Mailing of new filter cartridges Number: I II Label of the Material: sample / Filter: filte r no Series E IV 6202 Disc pa d disk: 78 pieces Series 431 609 565 B iii Sample designation Place of sampling Workshop 73, fie ld C 36 IV a) 0.5 h m3 Register number of the company Sheet 2 Sample number: 0 3 4 /7 9 ? Dear Gentlemen, Please find attached the analysis report of the samples you sent to us. Best regards by order Contaminant Filter samples 1 % Contam. % Contam. in tot. dust in fine dust Determin. MAK Concentration mg/m3 Total dust fine dust contaminant 2 Material samples % Contam. % Contam. Fine dust in original in fine dust factor % Asbestos: < 1 % of TSC value 1.028 mg/Ring 0.1867 m g/cm 3 *)Material Membrane- Microsorban- Fiber optic filter b) 59 % rel. humidity 21 C; 995 mbar *)Material Membrane- Microsorban- Fiber optic filter a) m3 min b) *)Material *)Material A t 9 0 m 3 = 3 3 0 fib e rs = TSC value A t 11.25 m 3 = 41 fibers R esult: < 1% o f TSC value Membrane- Microsorban- Fiber optic filter a) m3 min b) Membrane- Microsorban- Fiber optic filter CONFIDENTIAL a) m3 min b) Clark vs. VWAG (Ferraro) - 00000284 1.028993908 MG/FINE DUST - RING .1866974188 MG/M3 FINE DUST CONFIDENTIAL Clark vs. VWAG (Ferraro) - 00000284 EXHIBIT N 11/07/2001 09:59 AM VW AG WOB +49 [redacted] To Mr. Dr. [redacted], Health Protection From Process Department/Process planning and coordination Your reference Your message from Our house extension [redacted] Our reference 1493-[redacted] [redacted] [redacted] Pollutant levels in the service station and in hall 52 BJT8 +49 5361 [redacted] Page 01 [redacted] [redacted] Health Care VW AG Head [redacted] [redacted] 11/06/2001 [redacted] [redacted] Dr. [redacted] [redacted] 1. We performed in the service station fine dust measurements in the breathing area of the plant worker responsible for cleaning brake drums. These operations are usually only at longer intervals and are of short duration. In the present case, these are short-term exposures. The assessment of these measured values is carried out in accordance with ZH 1/561, 4.3 - "Rules for the measurement and evaluation of dangerous mineral dusts" -. Breaches of the TSC (technical standard concentration) values for asbestos-containing particulate matter and the MWC-values (maximum workplace concentration) for copper (dust) and lead occurred during the blowing out of the brake drums. Meanwhile, the cleaning of the brake drums is performed according to another method in which pollutants are not released. For this reason, it should be indicated to all service stations of the group that, according to the old cleaning procedure, MWC values or TRX exceedances may occur with asbestos-containing materials. This information should also be included in the service station manual - by Mr. [redacted], Coating/Environmental protection procedure. 2. For the plant workers employed in Hall 52 at the car wash, were the values for gasoline hydrocarbons, n-octane (C8H18) between 165.6 ppm and 182.3 ppm. The individual results can be found in the attached table. [redacted] [redacted] Attachment To D/ Gentlemen [redacted] - [redacted] - [redacted] - [redacted] - VK-41, Service station Wolfsburg VK-31, Technical procedures Occupational safety Committee for occupational safety 200 ppm 200 ppm VW internal threshold 1.3 32.4 0.45 Assessment index according ZH 1/561 4.3 Concentration TSC EXHIBIT E W 17 01/11/2019 CONFIDENTIAL Total pages 01 Clark vs. VWAG (Ferraro) - 00000407 LAPQ14A CAS number [illegible] [illegible] W O R KP LA C E - M EA S U REM E N T S 10/23/1991 08:13 AM CAS - numbers - statistics for all measurement days Page 2 1332 - 21 - 4 ASBESTOS (CHRYSOTILE) Measuring point B8TZ 05 FEH20GE10401 FEH20GE10501 MATERIAL 01 010 HG 80601 040 WAREH. 01 054 EGFB 7001 071 SIGNED 01 Active / passive Passive Active Active Passive Passive Passive Passive Passive Cost center 1942 1762 1763 1396 1319 1643 1335 1412 Substance index Min Max 0.01 0.01 < 0.01 < 0.01 < 0.01 < 0.01 0.08 0.08 < 0.01 < 0.01 0.08 0.08 [illegible] [illegible] - no measurement protocc l - no measurement protoco l il legible] il legible] GSA Society for Occupational Safety [illegible] [redacted] Dr. [redacted] REM CONFIDENTIAL [illegible] Threshold [illeg ble] ^ 1 Time of the measurement TRGS 519 Clark vs. VWAG (Ferraro) - 00002408 EXHIBIT O To Mr. Dr. [redacted] - Central Health Care From Security chemistry BS Your reference Your message from Our reference Dr. [redacted] X Internal notice Notice number House extension [redacted] Date Page 09/02/1987 Asbestos determination in Braunschweig Attached you will find the requested compilation of asbestos determination in fine dust. The measurements were taken at workplaces where asbestos-containing materials were processed during the measurement. The sampling was performed with the particulate matter measuring device VC 25-F. The detection of asbestos in fine dust was carried out by optical microscopy. For positive detection, asbestos was quantified by the IR method. [redacted] Dr. [redacted] Attachment EXHIBIT E W 16 01/11/2019 CONFIDENTIAL Clark vs. VWAG (Ferraro) - 00000299 - v Security chemistry Braunschweig Asbestos determination in fine dust at asbestos workplaces in Braunschweig Day of measurement Measurement order Device Inventory number Site: Workspace/field Process 06/16/1982 0001/1982 Brake shoe riveter 33 207 3 / J4 Inserting the brake shoes 06/23/1982 0001/1982 Brake shoe grinding machine 3-30 C 31 550-1 3 / J5 Outlet of the grinding machine 06/23/1982 0001/1982 Rotary table riveter 17 174 3 / G8 Inserting the brake shoes Processed material Processing volume during the measurement Fine dust (mg/m3) Asbestos (mg/m3) (Chrysotile) Asbestos in fine dust Comments Brake shoes Company Jurid 171 609 565 J 2,170 Brake shoes Company ABPA 443 609 537/538 1,500 0.100 0.009 0.150 0.045 9% The devices were moved at the extraction system with dust 30% end of the year 1982 and separation. Brake shoes Company ABPA 171 609 525/526 A 3,070 0.130 0.009 7% equipped with a central Date: 09/02/1987 Sheet: 1 of 3 Signed: Dr. [redacted] 11/19/1983 0001/1983 5 / N10 Removal of brake pads from the container Unknown company (asbestos-containing brake pads) 0.180 Unverifiable (optical microscope) CONFIDENTIAL Clark vs. VWAG (Ferraro) - 00000300 - v Security chemistry Braunschweig Day of measurement Measurement order Device Inventory number Site: Workspace/field Process Processed material Processing volume during the measurement Fine dust (mg/m3) Asbestos (mg/m3) (Chrysotile) Asbestos in fine dust Comments 11/20/1983 0001/1983 Brake shoe riveter 33 207 5 / N 13 Inserting the brake shoes Asbestos containing brake shoes (Company unknown) 0.110 0.002 Concentration below the detection limit Asbestos determination in fine dust at asbestos workplaces in Braunschweig 11/13/1983 0001/1983 Brake shoe grinding machine 3-30 C 31 550-1 5 / N 14 Outlet of the grinding machine Asbestos containing brake shoes (Company unknown) 11/20/1983 0001/1983 Brake shoe grinding machine 3-30 C 31 550-1 5 / N 14 Inserting the brake shoes Asbestos containing brake shoes (Company unknown) 0.220 Unverifiable by optical microscope 0.130 0.002 Concentration below the detection limit Date: 09/02/1987 Sheet: 2 of 3 Signed: [redacted] 11/19/1983 0001/1983 Rotary table riveter 10 174 5 / O 22 Inserting the brake shoes Asbestos containing brake shoes (Company unknown) 0.240 Unverifiable by optical microscope CONFIDENTIAL Clark vs. VWAG (Ferraro) - 0000030 1 - v Security chemistry Braunschweig Asbestos determination in fine dust at asbestos workplaces in Braunschweig Day of measurement Measurement order Device Inventory number Site: Workspace/field Process Processed material 11/30/1983 0002/1983 Suspension arm assembly LT 40 02/10/1984 0002/1983 Brake shoe grinding machine Automotive workshop 5 / L 22 Assembly of suspension arms Assembly work with complete components 1 / without Regrinding of brake pads Asbestos-containing pads Processing volume during the measurement Fine dust (mg/m3) Asbestos (mg/m3) (Chrysotile) Asbestos in fine dust Comments 0.081 0.018 22% 16 0.164 0.003 30% Concentration below the detection limit 06/05/1986 0018/1986 Brake shoe grinding plant 3-30 C 31 550-2 5 / N 14 Inserting the brake pads Asbestos-containing brake pads (Company unknown) 0.836 Unverifiable by optical microscope 7% Date: 09/02/1987 Sheet: 3 of 3 Signed: [redacted] CONFIDENTIAL Clark vs. VWAG (Ferraro) - 00000302 EXHIBIT P South German Iron and Steel Professional Association (Statutory accident insurance) H e a d q u a rte r 6500 MAINZ-WEISENAU WILHELM-THEODOR-RMHELD-STRASSE 15 PHONE: (0 61 31) 802-1 Technical Supervisory Service REPORT o n th e m e a s u re m e n t o f a ir p o llu ta n ts a t th e w o r k p la c e 1.1 Report number: 91 2231 1.2 Company: VW AG Kassel P.O. box 10 38 60 3500 Kassel-Baunatal Place of operation: Date: 07/03/1991 Company number: 624/0133/8 D3 same address 1.3 Type of operation: 1.4 Participants at the meeting: at the measurement: 1.5 Measurement performed by: on: 1.6 Measurement task: Phone number: 05 61/4 90 [red: Automobile industry Mr. [redacted], SI, Mr. [redacted], SI Chemist, Mr. [redacted], SFK temporarily Mr. [redacted] [redacted], Mr. [redacted] Mr. [redacted], TAD, HV March 25, 26, 26 and 28, 1991 Determination of asbestos dust concentration in the Aggregate preparation and in halls 3 and 4. Measurement order from 03/28/1991. 1.7 Responsible TAB: Mr. Dipl. Ing. [redacted] [redacted] 03/1987 tabbies* PLA IN TIFFS EXHIBIT 29 CONFIDENTIAL Clark vs. VWAG (Ferraro) - ( 00000:526 2. Work areas and measurement results Work areas/measurement points/sample BA -- Hazardous material WA MP S Designation 3 1 1 Riveting brake linings Fibers in general: d < 3pm l > 5pm (here Chrysotile asbestos) 40 1 4 Brushing off engine block 40 2 5 Clutch disassembly 40 3 6 Sanding of the sealing surface of the intake manifold 40 4 7 Sanding of the sealing surface of the water pump 40 5 8 Scraping off the seal residues from the cylinder head 40 9 9 Scraping off the seal residues of the water pump 146 1 2 Oil fired power plant 2 2 0 1 3 Repacking of clutch discs T (F/m3) 250 000 250 000 250 000 250 000 250 000 250 000 250 000 250 000 250 000 Page 2 to report no: 91 2231 STV Date SD p/s MMDD (h) 03/25 2 P - 03/26 2 P - 03/26 2 P - 03/27 2 P - 03/27 2 P - 03/27 2 P - 03/27 2 P - 03/26 2 .0 s 03/26 2 .0 P AI se Conc. S/ STV Conc (F/m3) T x se 80 000 S 0.32 - 130 000 S - 40 000 S - 540 000 S - 40 000 S - 1 1 0 000 S - < 40 000 S - < 40 000 S < 40 000 S 0.52 0.16 2.16 0.16 0.44 < 0.16 < 0.16 < 0.16 WA Number of the work place SD MP Number of the measurement point P S Number of the sample in the analysis report s T Threshold (for example MAK, TRK) STV Short term value category 02/1991 CONFIDENTIAL SamPling duration on the Person stationary se Conc S / STV AI factor for shortened exposition Pollutant concentration Shift mean average / Short term value Assessment index Clark vs. VWAG (Ferraro) - 00000327 Page 3 to report number 91 2231 3. Findings/Comments The work performed during the measurement can, according to the attendant, be regarded as representative. The assessment of the measurement result was uncorrected on the basis of the shift mean value in comparison to the threshold. The overview tables on page 2 are used for quick information. The attachments contain the BIA analysis report with environmental conditions. Since dealing with asbestos-containing materials, it has been assumed that the general fiber count measured in the respiratory air consists mainly of asbestos fibers. The assessment was therefore based on the asbestos fiber limit of chrysotile (most common asbestos type). Critical concentration values are to be determined at the following work processes: - .Trigg.er.t.h.r.e.s.h.o.ld.ex.ce.e.d.a.n.c.es.(AJ-S. >.Q.-.1).at.o.n.e-.tj.me..m.ea.s.u.r.e.m.e.nt) Riveting brake linings (IBA 31) asbestos Brushing off engine block (IBA 4Q1) asbestos Clutch disassembly (IBA 4Q2) asbestos Sanding of the sealing surface of the water pump (IBA 4Q4) asbestos Scraping off the seal residues from the cylinder head (IBA 4Q5) asbestos - Exce.e.dance of threshold .(AI.-.S.>.1) Sanding of the sealing surface of the intake manifold (IBA 4Q3) asbestos Processed by: [redacted] Technical Supervisory Service on behalf of [redacted] Attachments BIA analysis report Pictures of the measurement points Assessment criteria [h a n d -w ritte n te xt illegible on this page] CONFIDENTIAL Clark vs. VWAG (Ferraro) - 00000328