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1 IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
2 FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS
3 BEAUMONT DIVISION
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5 CECIL SCOTT, ET AL
6 V.
C.A. NO. B-84-1 103-CA
7 MONSANTO COMPANY
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1 0 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
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17 June 11, 1987 Gilpin, Pohl & Bennett
18 1300 Post Oak Boulevard Houston, Texas
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2.3 Cheryl. 1 K. LeFevers Texas CSR No. 1690/Notary Public
2 4 Nell McCallum & Associates 2900 Smith, Suite 104
2 5 Houston, Texas 77006
NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
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1 A 0 P F A R A. N C 1;!G :
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4 DAVID M, LACK 7 MlfCBAFL POBL
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13 JOHMNA BARTON Fx ec u t A. v e Be:rv A c: e s (3roup
l 4 P.O. Box 890306 B o u p t o n , Texan 7 7289 - 0 3 0 6
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2 0 B e n n e 11, 1 3 0 0 P o ts 1: Oak B o u 1 e v a r d , H (3 U 13 to n, Texas,
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2 4 Federal Rules of: 0 i v i I Procedure,
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7 w e ' v e h a d a s1 (. p u I a t i. o n w h e x' & they' r e g i. v o n I: h e
B opportunity to sign it; but if it's not been signed
9 a n d t h e s i g n a t u r e a n d. c h a n g e w m a d e a v a i 1 a b I. e t o u a
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IB MR. FRUEHWAI.D : Yeah. 19
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1 DR. G l:! 0 R G K ROUS H , J R . , 2 h a v .i Ti g 3) e & n f x v a t d u 1 y a w 0 r n , t e a 11 f .i e d a a f 0.1 3 ows 3 A EXAMINATION H Y MR'. LA CRY: 5 Q W 1 .11 you a i. a t e y 0 u r f u 13. n a me to r 1; h e 6 r e. c. 0 r d , a i r ? 7 ft . George Roush, .T r , B Q. W 3) e r e d 0 y 0 u live? 9 ft, <3 1: , U0 u i :? . 3 0 . T h e a d d r e. a a ? i :i. ft . 1 0 B e v e r 3. y , St. L 0 u i a , 6.3 12 4. 3 2 Q. H 0 w a r e y 0 u e m p .1 0 y e d ? 13 ft . Y.'m <: u 3.1-- time employed by Mona an't 0 . 3.4 Q. And wha t p0a i 1.1. 0n d 0 y 0 u h 01 d t h e re? 15 A . I a m h h e d i r e c 1: or 0 f: in e d i c i n e a n d ft e a 1.1 h 3 6 a c x e. n c. e a . 3 7 0.. G 3v e me a very b r1e f d e ii c T' j p t i 0 n of your 18 e d u c a. tiona 1 b a c k <7 r o u n d f o 1.1 o w 1 n g li i g h s 0 h o o J., if: y o u 3 9 w o u3d, p1e a se. 2 0 A . I have a HacheJ or's -- a Dachelor of 2 1 p hiloso p h y f r o m t h e (I n i v e r s 3. t y o f: W .i 3 0 o n s i 11 a n d a n 2 2 M . D . from Washingt o n 13 n i v e r r. i t y in 51. l'.oui s , a 3,3 M a :>' t e r 111 p u b 3.1 c h e a 13: h fro in I: he fJ n i v e r s .1t y o I: 2 A P i 11 sburgh, a n d o c c u p a t x o n a 1 hi e a 1 t. h . 2 5 I have train i. n g i n 3. n 1: e r n a 1 m e d i. cine
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2.5 ft, J).id you do a .routine .internship hollowing
NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
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1 the completion of your medical degree?
2 A , Y c: a f 1 d :l d .
3 Q , An d -....
0 A . A t M .i .1 w a u )< e e C o u n t y H o s p 3 t a 1 . T h a 1 ' s 1. h e
5 Marquette teaching h o s p i ta 1 in Milwaukee,
6 0.. And d A d y ou do a s ta ndard r es A dency
7 1: o 11 o wing y o u r m e d A c a 1 w o r k ?
8 A . I had d e8 er A bed A t. wh en 1 says I was a t t.hi e
9 C a n c e r I n s t i t u I; e a t t he St a t e n T s 1 a n d. M a r 1 n e
I o H oa p :i ta 1 a n d tln.i ver s :i 1.y oi: P 3 11 s bur gh .
11 Q , Okay. W a a t h a t res 1 d e n c y done:i. m in e d i a t e 1 y
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18 r e s 1 d e n c y ?
19 A. Yes.
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NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
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6 Q. By way of ifurt?
7 A . Yes .
fl Q. Toll me aboxit yoxir employment history. And
9 by this,, T. mean the companies or the entities with
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1 2 A , In 'J 9 S 6 I la e c. a m e. a p a r t -1 .X m e I a c xi X t y a t t. h e
13 University of Pittsburgh and was aiso the medical
i a d i rector o f 0a .1 orie Chem Xea 1 Company , a s ma X I
X 5 e o m p a n y i. n -- X n b 1 1', t s b xi r g h ,
X 6 0. W a a t. h a 1. a p a r t -1 X. m e j o In , as w e X X ?
X 7 A . Yes .
J fl Q. - B o w .1 o n cj d i d y o xi h o X d t Xi o s e p o s X t i o n s ? 19 A . Until 1963,
3 0 Q. And what dXd y o xi d o in X 9 6 3 ? 2 I A . 'I1 h e n X t, o o k a leave of absenc e f r o in t lx e
3 3. U ri X v e r s i X. y o f F' X t. X. s h xi r g h X. o 1. a); e t h a t f e 1 X o w s h X p
3 3 U n i v e v a X t y o f: r.o u 1 a vX X I. e , X n ca r d i. o 1 og y ,
34 Q. And how .'long were yoxi at l.o xi X a v X X .1 e ?
3 5 A. One ye a r.
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.1 Q . And from 1963, what did you do? 3 A . I went to the On.i veins 3 ty of C.i nc.i rrnnl j at 3 t h o e 1'. t e r i n g r, a b o r a 1: o v y , and I w a s a sso o L a 1; e 4 p r o f e r.t ft o r o f o c c u p a 13 o n a .1 ?n e d .i a i n . A n d t w a 1. b e r e S u n t 11 1 9 fi 0 . 6 0. And w h e r e d 1 d you g a x n 1 968 ? 7 A . D u r 1 n g t h a t t i in e , f r o m 19 7 3 on, I was a 1.s o 8 m e d i c. a 1 d 3 roc t or o t the Ethe.l Corpora t .1 or>. 9 Q. You s a 1 d " 1 9 7 3 . " 1) 1 d you m e a. n ..... 1 0 A . J. 9 6 3 . 1 :i. Q - 1 9 6 3 . 13 A . (W ,i t ness n o d a h e a d ) 1.3 Q 0 k ay. A n d tK a t was a p a r t-timo j o b with 1 4 ): i. h c. :i ? IS A . Yes. 1 6 Q A n d 3 n 1 9 6 8 d i d you 1 e ave the 0 n i v e r s 1 h y o f 1 7 0 i no i. n n a 1; 1 ? 1 8 A . Yen. 19 o.. And what did y ou d o ? 3 0 A . And went t o T u 1 a n e I) n ;i v e r s .i t y medical 3 .1. a <: h o o 1 , 3 3 And what did you do there? 3 3 A . And 1 was t here in the. department of 3 4 m a d :i c. .i n e , a t i d 3 w a p r o f e s a o r o f m e d i c 1 n e . 3 S Q . What particular area were you teaching in?
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I A . K n v i. r o n m e n 1; a 1. m e d i e i n e . 2 Q A n d how Ion cj d ,i d y o u r e in a i n a t T u 1 a n e ? 3 A , fin til, 1973, 4 c- W e r e y o u a 1 a O ! t. 5 1 1 a p a r t. -1. i in e m e d .1 c. a .1 5 A , 1 was s t, i. 1, 1. m e d :i. c a 1 d i. r o c 1: o r o f: K 1:. h e 1 6 C o r p or a t i on \in 1. i 1 3 9 7 3. 7 Q , Okay, An d in 1 9 7 3 w h c r e d i d you <j o'?
a A . Wen t t o -- c. a in e t o Monsari t a , 9 Q , A n d w h a 1,p os i I; ion d i d y o u come in 1; o ? .1 0 A , A ! a fs i o c .i a t e in e d .i e a .1. d i r e c t o r w o r k i n g w i t h
1. I D r . K o 1.1 y , and i. 1, vi a a p r e p a r a I; o r y for li i a J 2 r e 1 .i r & in e r> t. A n d , no, 1 w a s assoc i ate d i r e c t o r u n t i 1 13 19 7 4 , wh e n h e r e t i r ed ; a n d t h en T. b o o a in e medical 1 4 director, :i 5 Q . A n d w b e n y o u c a m c , y o u u n d e r s t o o d t b a t 16 Dr, Kelly was nearing retirement and upon his 1 7 r e t. i e m e n t y o u w o o 1 d 1j e e o in e t. h e m e d j c a 1 d 1 r e c t o r ? 18 A, Yes, 19 Q . And 1 r oin 19 7 4 forwa rd ha v e y o u b eer> t h e
2 0 m e d i c a 1 d i r e e I; o r of: Mo n s a n t o ?
2 3 A. yen. 2 2 Q. Is that a position that has administrative 2 3 r e s p o n s i b i L i. 1: i e s' a s s o o i a t e d w i. b h i I: ? 24 A, Yea, 2 6 () , What size department do you administer ---
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1. o r g r o u p d o you a <1 m i. n i s 1: e r ? 2 A . About 20, 25. 3 Q And has 1;ha h l)e o n t ho approx i ma to :? i. x e o f: 4 1 h e d e p a r t m e n l. t h r o u g h o u 1 t. h e t 1 m e y cm 'v e b e e n 3 1; h e r e ? 6 A . No . 7 0. Ho w J a r g e wa s t h e m ed ical d epar t. in e. n t. t.h a t. 8 y o u. c a m e t o a d m 1 n 1 s 1: r w h n y o u b o c a. m e in a d i c a 1 9 d ;V r e a t. a r .i n J 9 7 4 ? 1. 0 A . About ten. :i'] Q A n d fro in '74, t h e n , u n t. i .1 ' 8 7 , i 1 ' g Town 12 f.ro m a p p X' o x 1 m a 1; e J. y t e n pe o p .1. e to approxi m a h <51. y 2 0 t o J 3 25? :i 4 A . No. 11 went u p to 150. 1. s Q < Okay, Went up to 150 and then back down --
1 6 A . y 0! H .
1.7 Q . ..... t o 2 0 , 2 5 ? j 8 A . (W j t.n ea n nods h ead ) 1.9 Q Wlx e n d i. d i. h r ea e h 10 0 to -- 3 0 A , A b o u t two years ago. 3 :t a A n d k lx e in a. x 1 m. u m w a a a b o u t 1 0 0 t o 1 5 0 ? 2 2 A . Yea . 2 3 Q A n d y o xi a d in :i n 5 ,`i t e r e d all th o a e. p e o p .1 e ? 2A A . Y e a . 3 8 G` And then .it. dropped back down to 2.0 to 25?
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A . Ye . 2. Q , What w a!i the c a ue of that decreaoe? 3 A . 13 o o r g a n i. x a t ion. /I Q . A Ti cl y o n r a d m 3 n 3 s t. r a 13 v e r e s p o n s 3 b 3 1 3 13 es ,
then, wet' e r e d uce d? 6 A . Y. e s . 7 Q. Who became re s p o n s 3 b1e fo r t h e B a. d m i n i s t r a t i. o n o i: t h i. s 1. a r g e n u m b e c o f: p e o p 1 e t h a t 9 w e r e m o v e d f :r o m y o xi r r e & p o n s 3 b 3 13 t. y ? L 0 A , T h e r e w a. s a b o u t a -- I h a d a t o x i c o 1 o g y 3. .1 laboratory that we had put together about ten years
1 2 ago. And with the reorganization of! Monsanto, like
13 many companies, the toxicology laboratory became a 1. 4 p a x't o f: t h e a g r i c u 3, t u r a 3. d .1 vision, And t h a I; 1 s where 1 b m o s t o f 3 t. w a s . 3 6 And the otlier thing we rii'opped out and 17 t It e r e, a s on why I h a v e I; h e t r o u b L e w i, t h t h e n u m b e v s 3 B 3 s t. h a t 3 nd u s t r 3 a 1 hy g 3 ene h ad been iny 1 9 r e s p o n s i. b i 1 i 1: y , I; o o . And t h a t w a s t a ken aw a y f: x' o m 2 0 m e a n d - - a n d p xi t. A n t o a n a d m 3 n 3. s t r a 13 v e f u n c. t 3. o n
2 1. r a. 1; ix e r I; h a n t e c h n i o a 1 . 2 2 Q . What w e r e y o u 1 e ft. w 3 t h a f t e r t. h e
2 3 t o x i. c o I. o g y I. a. b w a s m o v o d a n d t h o 3 n d u s 1; r i. a 3. h y g i. e n e 24 was moved ? 2 3 A . 0 c c xi p a 13 o n a .1 m e d 3 c 3 n e , t o x 3. e o 3 o g y , a n d
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1 0 p l d em i. ol. ogy , 2 Q . 11 n 1 a 1 t h j ar e o r g a n i % a t x o n t h a t o c*. o n r r e d 3 1 n -- w h a. t w a. :5 1 1; ; I. 9 B 5 o r so? -1 ft.la that time frame, 5 Q . rj n 1:1 1 t h e r e <.5 r g a. n 1 ^ a I; 1 o n h a d o ecu r c ed in 6 a b o n t 1 9 B 5 , did you a d m i i\ i a t e r a 1.1 o f. t h e1 ti d u s t r 1 a .1 7 h y g i e n e a a w e 11 a s o c o u p a t i o n a .1 m ed 1 c i. n ,
a tox j o. o 1 ogy, an d e p 1 d e m 1. o 1 o g y ?
9 A, Yos. :i o {) , P .i d y o u a 1 .c; o a d m 1 n i a t e r t h e t o x ;i c o 1 o g y J. i. 1.abora tory omp loyeo h ? 12 ft , Ye a . 13 Q * W h a t. f u n c t. .i o n a a a t h e medical direst o r d ,i d
you c a r r y o u 1; i n a d m 1 n i a 1. e r 1 n g this group of j 5 e m p1oyeea? 16 ft. Well, 1 w a a r e a p o n a 1 b J e f o r t h e 1. 7 a d m 1 n 1 a 1; r a. h i. on i. n 1; e r m s o J; h i. i u g an d f 1 r i n g as w e 1. 1 B a a t h e assigning of rein p o ti a x b .1J ,i t y t o f* a c h o n e of 19 t h a b g r o u p . B u h i. n a d d J. t :i. o n , a m a j o r f u n c 11 on w a s 3 0 1 T) t e c h n i c a .1 d.irec t .i o n of the admini ateri ng of our 21 h o a. 1. t h p r o (j r a m .
2 2 o.. 5 o , you we r e r e a pon a i b .1 e
2 3 p o o p 1. o t; li a t. w o r k o d f o r y o u ? 2-1 ft . Y c a . 2 5 Q - C o r r e <: h ?
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I. A , (W 3. 1; n e a a n o d a h e a d ) 2 0 J a t a t c o r r ft c. t ? 3 A. , Yes . A Q. You we :r e :r e a p o n a i b 3 e f o :r f .3 r .3 n g 13i e. p e o p 3 3. 1: n e c naaary, tha 3: w (.3 r k e d 3: o r y o u ? 6 A . Y ft <i , 7 Q. Y o u w ft r e r e a p o n a i. b 3 e for assigning them 8 t h ft 3. r p a v t 3. c u 3. a r j o l) d. u 1; 3. e a ? 9 A , Yea . 3 0 Q - A n d y o u w e r ft r e a p o ri a i 3) 3 e f. o r d .3 r ft c 1. i n g I. 1 t h e i. r 1; e ft h n 3. c a 1. w o r k ? 3 2 A . Yea , 3 3 Q. Were you r e s p o n a i b 3 e for b u d g e tin g th e l 4 d ft p a. r t in ft n 3; 3. n t h ft w o r k t h a t it did? 3 5 A n d 3) y t 3) a t, 3 woul d in e a n e mployee ' 1. 8 i3 a 3. a r 3. e a ; I w o u 3. d a 3. a o m ft a n outii 3. d ft cons u 3. t a n t a 1; 3 7 y o u h i red . 1 0 A , Y ft !3 , 3 9 () . W a a - ~ w o r g t h e a g f \i n c t :i o r> s o 3 hiring, 2 0 3; i. r .1. n g , as ss L g n 3. ti g r espo n s ,i. b i. 1 i. h i. e s , g i. v 3. n g 1: e c hn i. o a 3. 2 3 direction, and budgeting both salaries and outside 2 2 o o n a u I. I: a n I: a a o m e h h 1 n g I: h a t w a u a a a o <: i a I: e d with t h e 2 3 job of wedica.l director f' j: o in the time you at. arte, d 2 4 w 3. I: h t h a I: j o l)?
2 t> A . Yea.
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t Q , D i. (3 you ho vh any procodu res, <jui.deli. lies , or 2. p o l h c i e,'! t h a 1. y o u e a t. a b 3 3 a h e <3 w 3 1. h r e g a r d t o t. 3i e
n c i. r o u m;? I; am: o a I: h a I: w o u I. d l o a d t o a n y I: y p e o 13
4 d 3. f! c. .i p .1 3 n o .f o r a n e w p .3 o y e e. w h o w o r k e (3 f o r you ? 5 A, No. 'i'll at wi.u: person mil function. Wo -- 6 t. h e d 3. a e 5p 3 3 ri c>. w o u 3 d ..... would b & r e 3 a t. & da n d - - and 7 p r e a o r i b e d b y t h p e r s o n n e l ff u n c t 1 o n , 8 And we 3iad -- i. he: personnel function 9 l n t h o o v gnu i z a 3; i. on in w h i. e h Y. 13 unct 3. o n e d w a a c a 3.1 d 1 0 '' e n v 3 r o n in e; n t a 3 p o 3 3 c y a t a f f . " I. I. Q. And there wore some peruonnel people there? 3 2 A , Yea. An d t. h e y a d in 3 n 3 si t e r e: d t h a t. ' f u n c 13 o n I. 3 w i I; h i n on c d o p a r t m e n t . 3 4 Q . If th e :r e w e r o a ri e in p 3 o y a e w h o s e p e T` f o r in a n c e I 3 y o u f o. 1. I; -j u s I: i. f 1 ed 3 o mo, s or t o f d i s c i. p L i. n o,, wo a 1. d 1 6 y o u fi 3m p 3 y m a k ey o u r w 3 s 3i e r: know n t o t. h e 1 7 0 n v 11.*on me n I; a 1. po 3. i. c y pe r s o nn e I. s t a f f ;a nd t hey wou l d 3 8 1 h e n cl e o 3, d e h o w t o c a r r y t h a t. o u t ? 19 A . W e w o u 1. d d o i I: I; o g e t her. 2 0 Q . I f y o u l. h o u g h t a n e in p 3 oyeewere a pp r o pr 3 a t. e 2, I. for termi. nation, how would that, bo done? Would you 2 2 m a k e t. li a t r e c o m m c n d a t i o n 1 o t li a t g r o u p , a n d t. h e y 2 3 w o u 1 d t h o. n d o o i. d o w h o t h o r o i" n o t t. o t o r m i n a. t o ? 2 A A ,, I ' in t :r y 3 n g to t h 3 n k 3. f t >) a t e v e r 3) a );> p e, ti e d 2.5 W o o n 1. y h a d o n e ..... n o , T h e v e a r e - - we h ad so me
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1 h e r in 1 n o. I; ions , b u I: I; h o y w e r e ,i. n e i d a n t a l i. n t h e 2 staffing fmuit, 3 on , So, we -- we would do .it. -- we 3 w o t). ]. d d o i t t o g e the v , p e r s o n n e L -- 4 Q , 3 o , y a u w e r e 1. nvo .1 v e d j o i. n t .1 y w .i t. b t h e 5 p e r j; o n ri e l p e o p I. e 1 n -- 6 A . H i. g b t . T h e i r p r o c: e d u r e f o r h 3 r i n g a n d 7 firingwan -- was toll, owed by our ~ - our section, by 8 o\ir depar tment . 9 Q. Am 1 correct. in u nd er s t a n d i ng that these I. 0 p e o p I o w e r o -- t h e p a r t t c u 1 a r group t h a 1: you worked 1 1 w 1 t h i n t he envi r o n m e ti t a .1 p o.l 3 cy group) were 1. 3. l< n o w I. a d g e a b I. e a b o u t I: h e 1 a w s t h a. t r e I a I: e d I: o w h a t 13 you were: auppoHed to do when you hired somebody; the t 4 b (3 n e f L t s t hat y o u w e r e suppose d t o p r o v l d e them; 1 5 what due process rights, if any, you would provide l 6 t o h h e m w h e n y o u w e r e g o i. n g i. o d i. s c i. p I. i n e them; and J 7 making sure that if they were terminated it was done 18 :i. n a c o r r e c t f a s h i o n ? 3 9 A . Yes . 2 0 Q . And -- 2.1 A . And that wou J d i. n c 1 u d e - - w h e n t h a t. 2.2 h a p p fins , my boss won 1. ti. b e .a p a r t of t h a f, a s w <31. 1. . 2 3 Q And t h e d e ci sion a b o u t w h e t b e r o r ri o t 2 4 s o m e b o tl y ought to be t e r ini na ted or no t was p r i m a r i .1 y 2 8 y o u r d e c i si on as the a d m i n i s t r a tor', a n d then you
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l w o u 1 d i o n s u l k w i. t h t h 1 s o t h e r g roil p on how to go 2 a b o u t i a :r r y i n g o u t 13) e d e c i s ,i o ri ; 1 s 13i a t c o :r r e c t 9
3 A . Y. e s ,
d Q > Who wa s y o u r b o n n ? 5 A , M r . T h rod a l\'l. at that t i in e ,
6 Q Wei J , .1 e t - 1 e t m e - - w 3t e n w e ! a y " a t 13i a t. 7 1: i. m e , " 1 wan t 1; o b e s u r e T --
B A . Wei 1 , 13) a t. g o es b a c If i. ti -- .i T) t o when 1
9 w h e n I h a d t h 3.s I, a r g e r f: u n c 1, i. o n , M r . T' h v o d a ti 1 w a s
.1 0 ,i n v o 1 v e d , A n d a f t o r h e. r a t i r e d , the ti t h a t
1 1 v n o r <j a n i x a 1:t o n I: o o k p 1 a e o a f: I; e r t hat.. And,, so, 1: h e n
12 my reporting function changed, a a well,
13 Q . Okay. Was Mr , Throdah I. your boss E com 1974
1A unti J J 9BS?
I. 5 A . At)ou I; t he n , y es ,
3 6 Q . 0 )< a y . A ri d i n t. h e t e r m i. n a t i o n o f e m p .1 o y e e :t ,
t. 7 you would consul. I: not only with the personnel
3 B p e o p 3 e, who would h eJp you decide h o w t o p h y1c a13 y
19 do it, but also with Mr. f hr odd. hi about whether to
2 0 d o .i t ?
2 1 A . Yes. A n d :i l w o u 1 d d e p e n d o n w h a t. level
22
I; I) a t p e r s o n w a s ,
1 f: i I; w a s a n It o u r 1 y per s o n w h o
2 3 war n't. working regular.! y, we probably would do it at.
2A the personnel level and only in tor in Mr, Thro da 111
w h a t ti a d t a k e n p 1 a c e .
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.!. 0 . i: f: you h a d a w a 1 a r 1 e d person, would
2 M r . 'J' h :i" o d a h .1 b e 5 n v o 1 v e d .1 n t b e dec.i ai o n -- in a )< 1 n g
3 proc es u ?
4 A, Much more; so,
3 Q , Abo u I; h <5 w m a n y poop .1. e did y o u I; e r m i n a t o
6 f r o iri t b e p e. r .1 o d 1 9 7 1 t h r o u g b 19 8 b ?
7 A , Rarely d 1 d we 1.ermina t e any one .
8 Q . [)o yon have; any Idea of about bow many
9 p (io p 1 e a e t ua 1 1 y we r e t er m 1 na t od d ur .1 ng t ha t per 1 od ?
1 f) A , J w o u 1 d say .1 e s s than ten. Maybe five.
1. 1 T. f ..... i. f t b a I: h i g h , Bo, t here ' s a r ar e (3 ec urre nee.
1 2 Q . W b a t so t t. of c o n d u c. t would g 1 v e. rise to a
1 3 r e o o m m n n d a t i o n o r a d e c 1 s .1 on by y o u t, o t erminatn a n
J <1 e. m p 1 o y e e wbo you ad in 1. n int.e r e d ?
l5
A.
ri s u a 11 y i. t w o u I. d l) e for in 1 s s 1 n g w o r k ,
poo r
.1 6 perf ormance at. work; and usually it would be .in the
1 7 h o u r 1 y p e o p 1 e , And I ' m -- 1!'m s p e a k 1 n g 1 n
1 8 g e n e r a 1.1 t y b & o a u s e J really can't. r e c a 1 1 any 1 n
1.9 w h 1 <3 h I h a d. -- a p r o b 1 e m o a m e u p t h a t we- h a d I; o 11 r e
2 0 s o m &on e. It's t b at ra re.
2. I. Q , D o y o u r e c a. 1 I. t e r in 1 n a 11 n g an y s a i. a r i. e d
2 2 pro f es s 1 ona 1 emp1 oy ee ?
2 3 A. We did ha v e one w ho was ter mLn a t ed, and
2A I. h a t w a s d o n e w 1 thou t. in y p a r t icipa t ion.
2 b 0,. Who was t h a t ?
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1. A . P a u I, W r 3. g h I: ,
2. When was Mr. Wright t e r in 3 n a t e d ?
3 A . li c a n ' 1'. a n s w e r t h a t , I d o n ' t r e ni e in 3) e r t h e
4 d a t. e .
5 Q , Do you r e in e. id 3) e r a j> p r o x 3 m a t. e .1 y when he w a
6 h vm lnated?
7
A,,
11 wa s s u e 3) a .3. ot>g proc.ed u r e .
11 ' v,
n d 3. f: f: i o u 3. t, t o s ay . T. wou 1 d ex pnc I; 1t wa is 1: our y ea r s
9 ago, j; o in o t. h j n g 3 3 k e t h a t ,
I. 0 Q . How wa ;s i. t. t h a t Mr, Wr i.gh I:' sI:er m i. na I: i.on
3 3 oc e u rre.cl w3 thou t y our 3 nvo] veinent.?
1. 3 A , T h e r e w a is a -- I don' t know h h e legal
3 3 term. There was a - an .investigation of the
1. 4 0 p o r a. 1; 1 o n is o f t h e I n d u is t r 3. a 3. 8 :i, o t e is t. f a Is o r a 3: o r; 1 e is 1 n
.1 F> C h 3 c a g o e o r> <: e r n .3 n g t. b e o o n d u o t o f e x p e :r 3 m e n t s
1 b I; here. A n d i. t w a is -- l; h e 3. lives I: 1 g a 13. o n w a is b y I; h e
3 7 G o v e r n in e n 1 .
3 8 And 1 'in not. sure what phase of: .it, hut.
1.9 i. fc w a is is I; a r I: e d Is y I: h o 1 lives t i g a 3:3. on, I t h 1 n k , w a is
2 0 b y 1.3i e F J) A . And V a u .1 W r 3 g h t 3i a cl wo r k e d a t
2 I. Industrial. Hi. o to is I: before he (same to Monsanto. And
2 2. that wan before I joined Monsanto, Go, T I ' in - -
2.3 1 can't speak from -- as I recall, Paul had been
2.4 w or k 3 ng f o:r - - f or I)3T f or severa 3 y ea r s a nd t.h en
2.5 came back to join our t o x 3, c o 1. ogy division. And then
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L w h e n 1: h . . s .1 a w s u i t began ~~ 2 11 You're ta 1 It i n g a b o u t t b e i. n v e s 11 g a t i. o n - 3 A , Yes. 4 0. . --- by the G o v e r n w e Tit. ? 5 A , Mo . When t It c 1. a w s u. i. t b e g a n . 6 . Wh a t 1 a ws u i t ? 7 A , The lawsu i t a g a 1 n s t X H T . a 11 Okay . 9 A . And P a u1 b ec a in e one of the de f endan t s . I 1 0 I; h i n 1c that's tin* cor reel; term. And the r can on X i l have t. o s a y "1 t h i n It " i s b e c. a u s e. we were not. a p a r t. 12 o f 11 a n d T w a s n o I; l< n o w 1 e d g e a b I. e w h a t w a s t a k i n g :i 3 thing or anything. It was complete beyond my 14 u n d e r s t a n d 1 n g . J 5 When that lawsuit began and he was now 1. 6 hoi nr/ on trial, we put. him on leave of: absence. Mot 1 7 hi y say so. 'Dial was the way legal or- aoineorie. -- I. 8 personnel, had decided. That was beyond me because 1 9 1.1. was n ' t any t h 1 ng 1.o ci o wit h h i s 1 u nc t ,i on w i t.h u s . 2 0 Q. nh-huh, 2] A . An d 1.h ey pn t h i m on leave of a bs enee. And 2 2 1: r o m t h e n o n , I d o n ' t know any t h 1. n </ a b o u t -- 2 3 anything about the. trial or anything that took place 2 4 or why or anything substantive about that because 2 5 t h a t w a s n o 1. h i n q 1. o d o w 1 t h m e .
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3.:i
1. A n d when t h e t r i .a l w a s o v e. r a. n d h e w a s
3 e o n v .i c t e d ..... 1 f t h ft t ' s t it e r 1 g h t t e r hi -- then he was
3 s e p a r a. t e d !: r o in M o n s a n t o .
4 Q I. e 1. Hi O', s e. e 1 f 1 ti n d e r s t and e o r r e c 11 y t h e 5 s i. t u a I: i. o n w i 1: It Mr. W r i g It t .
f. H y t1) e way, v/ a a i t " M r . W r 3 g b t, ''
7 " Dr . W r i g h t " ; w h a t wa s h i s ~~
a A , "Dr. W r 3 gh t."
9
'
D i d D r . P a u l W r i g h t hold a r esponsib 1. e
1 0 j) o s .i t i. o n a t. Monaan t.o?
1.1 A . Yes, hit sure did.
J 2 Q - What wa s his pos 1 t i on?
13 A . H e w a s o n e o 1; it u r toxicolog i s 1: s .
J 4 Q . W h it t t i 1.1 e did h e h o 1 d ?
1 5 /V , I! I; It i n k It e w a s e a .11 e d a man a g e r.
J 6 Q . And d i d h e b av o a n appropr .i a t. e P h . I) . degree
l 7 t (t b e a. t o x t e o l o g l s h ?
:i a A. Yen:, be did. He was -- had a degree .in
:i 9 nutrition from bite University of: Wisconsin.
3 0 {) . And was tbat an appropria te degree, 3 n your
3 1 opinion, to hold the position of! toxicologist?
3 3 A , He was pa r t of Mons a n t.o b e f or e 1 c a me , ft nd
3 3 I t: o u n d It i in t o b e v o r y e a p a it 1 e i n w It a t h e d i. d a s
3 4 w e 11 a s >i i s k n o w 1 e d g e a b o u t w h a t. t. o x 3 c a logy is and
3 5 It o w t o a d in i n i s I: e r i t,
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xj
X
o
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1. Q. Wo 1. 1. / 1,1 y
2 o j) .i n A o T) , t h <-* d e g r e 3 ex per i e nee , a pprop 4 o g i ft t ? 3 A , Yes . 6 Q Now, w e r e 7 Mr. W vight * s e m p 1 o
a b e c a in e in e d i c a 1 d i r
9 A . Ye s , s i v , j 0 Q . And, so. 1.1. t h a I: I; h L:? 1 n v o :> t i. g a b i o n b o g a. n , y o u a d in .1 n i. s I: o r e d 1 3 Mr. Wright ' s e in p 1 o y m e n t, c or r e c t ? 13 A , Y a s , sir. 3 4 Q. That would mean you evaluated his work, 15 e o r r e c b ? 1 6 A , n e d i d n ' t r e p o r t. dir e o 11 y to in e . II e 1.7 r e p o r b o d to Gftor g e h i. v i. n o u , the h e a d o f: 1 B t o x ,i c. o.! ogy, R u t I w a ft .i ri t .i m a t e. J y invo] v e d 3 n ~ 19 i. b ' :? a small, enough department,, I worked with Paul 2 0 r e g u .1 a r 1 y . 3 o -.... 2.1 Hub the -- any recommendations would 2 2 be coining from George f, i. v ,1 n s c n s in terms oh' whah his 2 3 p e i- f o r in a n c e w a ft o r a n y t h ,i n g e 1 s e . 2 4 Q , You, however, w e r e r e s p o n s i b 1. o u I. t i in a b. e 1 y 2 5 f o r a fi,i g n A ri g i. h a r e ft p o n ft i b i. 1 i t ,i e ft t. h a t w o r e
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.1 o :3 i, g n o d I: o Dr. Wright while you were head o f: the 2 m e d :i e a .1d e p a r1. id e n t , c, o r r e c t ? 3 A . I'mnot s? u r e j: u n d o r ss t and w h a t y (3 u in o, a n , 4 " a s i S g ti . " 5 Q . W e !l ] , y o n t o 1 d m e t h a t y o u r d u 11 as as 6 m o d 1 c a 1 d i. r e c. t o r e o n s i s 1. e d of: h i r i ti g , f: i r i n g , 7 a s s i g n :i n g r e s p o n s i b 1 1 i t y , t. e c h n i c a 1 d i :r e c. 1. ;i on, and 8 b udgo t 1 ng o f: ;; a. 1 a r :i. ns and <5u I; ide oon a u 1.1an t s ' 9 ftxpens es? I. 0 A, Yes, J 3 Q . 0n e o t t.h e t h 3 n<;s th a t you wor ti re sponai hi e 12 l: o r a :s m e d i o a 1 d. i r ector of: Mens a n t o i r o tit 19 7 4 u n t i 1 13 D r , Wr x g h t 3 e f. t. y o u r a r e a o f. responsi b 3.3 5 t y w a s 1 4 a s !3 1 g it i. n g v e jj p o n s 1 b l 1 J. t, i e a t o h i in ; i a that cor r e c t ? ] 9 A . Yes. And T d i d t h a 1. by -- thr ou g h George 1 f> L i. v i n :3 c u , 8 o a d m i. n 1 a I: o r e d d 1. r e n I: I. y -- w e t a 1 Ic e d 1 7 about what their aasigmoents would be. IB Q . And. u I, t ima I:e I. y you had the say-so i n wha I: 3 9 aasignwontfl were given to Paul Wright, did you not? 20 A . Y e S3 . 2 3 Q > Y o u a 1 s o w e r e r e si p o rt fi :i. b J e f: o r t h e 1 e. c ti n i c a 3 2 2 e c 1: i o n o f: li i S3 w o r k , were yoii no t ? 2 3 A . Yes . 2 4 a- A n d a in o ti g t h e. r e. a p o n s i b i 3 5 t i e s t h a t you h a d 2 9 a <3 S3 i g ii i tig h 3. in w o r k a n d d i j: e c t i n g h i S3 t e c h n i o a l
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I. w o r k - o r j. n a, d d i. t i o n I; o t h at, you wo r o r e s p o ns i b I. o 2 (: o r in a k A ri g o r a p p r o v .1 n g r e c o m m e n d a t :i o n a 1.' o r a ] a r y , 3 vi o r o, you n ot ?
<1 ft . y e r .
b Q . ft n d a n y b o n u a e s or- aw a r- d s he go t., c o r r e c 1. ? 6 A . Yes . 7 0 , I) A d Moiiaaii to l)ave a sy s t ein wh eraby t h e r e 0 wo. !3 0 p e r i o d i. c r: e v i e w of s a l a r i e a ? 9 ft . Yen, n A. r . 1 0 Q . D.i d e m p .1 oy ees a t. t he 1 e v e .1 of Mr. W r i g h t 1. I. have to ho. ve your a. p p r o v o 1. befio r e a s a 1 a r y 1 2 r e e o imn on d a t A on was panned, on for j. mpl e merit a t ,i on? 1.3 A . Y e g , s A r . .1 4 . 3 o , any salary .increases that Dr. W r A. g h t. I. 5 g o t a 1; Morn? an t o vi o u I d h a v e had to h a. v e been a p p r o v e d :i 6 b y y u , c o r r o> e t ? I 7 A . Y e s / sir. 1 fl Q ft n d y(ou would have had to evalute t h e w o r k 19 k o d a t e r in 1. n o w h o t h c r o r n ot y o u I; hough I: i t: in e r .1. t o d 2 0 1. h e p r o p o s e c! A n a r e a a e, c.or re <:. t ? 2 X A , Pm? , sir. 2 2 Q . W h a t a o r 1. o f b o u u a e a or- j. n e e t t x ves d A d 2 3 Moniianto ha. ve i. n addi. hion to a routine salary? 2A A . We h a v e a b o ri u a pr o g i"a m t h a t.'s b a s e d o n t h e 2 5 love l that, lie has i. n the company. And then wo have.
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:l. an Inr.en live program that (:' o r those of: lesser 2 degree that are not a part, of: the bo min program. 3 Q Was Dr , W v i. g h t a 1: 1; h e .Love .1 1: <3 b o p a r h o f 4 (. 1) o b o ri u s p i' o g r a m ? 3 A , No, h e wa is n <31 . 6 Q. 8 o , h e wa n c.oveted , w.1tli rogard to 7 is u p p l e m e n 113 1: o h L 13 13 .a.1 ai'y , by tlie inoen 1.1 ve pX"t3g ram? 8 A , Yen. 9 Q Fly the way, the bonus program, was that I. 0 b a i3 o d o n t h o f: 1 nan c 1 a 1 p e r t: o r m a. n o o of: Mo n sarito?
1.1 A . Ye fi .
1 2 o. So, if M O T) 13 anto had a good year, executives J. 3 who w o re a h. t h e love 1. 1; o p a 3; 11 <; i. p ate l n 1. Ii e b (3 n u s .1 4 prog r am wo u 1 d b o rewa r d e d w A t b a d d 3 t. A o n a 1 1.5 c o m p o n is a I: 1. o n / r. to r v e c t ? 1. 8 A . Y e s , 1 7 Q X f Mon a a n t o had a b a d y e ar , exeni t :i v e a a t. 18 t h o l e v e I, to pa rt i c i. pate i. n t h e bonus p r<3g r a m woul d J 9 n o 1. g e t a a large of or bonuses a t a 3 .1 , c, o r r o c t ? 2 0 A . T h a I: ' a r 1 g h t. 2 1 Q. Were you at the 1 e v e 1 a s m ed A a a 1 d A re cto r
2 2 who re y o u par I: i o i. pa f,ed 1 n I;he bonu s p r og ra m?
2 3 7. . Y e. i; . 2A Q , We r o p e o p X e a t t h e lev e 1 o f M r . T h r od a h X 2 5 a. n d a. b o v e t n t h o level I: o p a r I: .1 e i. p a I: e l n I: h e b o n u is
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] p rogra.m?
'X A . Yes,
3 Q , So, 13) C'. s a 3 a r y o r t. h e t. o t a 1 o o in p e n s a t .3 o ti o f
4 h h e m e d I. c a I. (3.3. r o a I: o r a n d t h o p e o p 1 o t o w h o in h o
5 r e p o r t e d w o u .1 d b e d e p e r> d e n t u p o ti 1h e. 1: 3 n a ti c. 3 a 3
6 p e r 3: o r m a. nee of: Monsanto, correct?
7 A . Ye Ei .
8 Q. What about. Dr. L3.vinsc\in , was lie 5 ti a level
9 where he participated 3. n the bonus program?
3. 0 A . y e s .
3 3 And, a a,
1 ?. d o p e n d. u p o n t h e f
3.3 A . Yes .
1 1 Q - K x i> 1 a 3 Ti 1.5 A , Ma oh y ea
3 6 h e r e w a s a v a 3 1 a b 3 e f o r d 3 s l. r .3 b u t. 3 o n f o r t h o s e w h o
.17 h ad do n o o u t s I: a ndi. n g w o r l< .
3 8 Q . W a s 13) a 1. a 1.1 oca t e d to you ; as a d e p a r t m e n t,
1.9 you h a d K - n u in b e r o f: d o 1,1 a r s I; o d 3. s I; r 3. b u I; e ?
2 0 A . Ye ei .
2 3 Q. Was .3 t. customary that each employee 3n the
2 2 department who wo. it not a part of: the bonus program
2 3 g o t t o p a r t :i c 3 p a t e 3 n t h e 3 n c e r 15. v e p r o g r a m ?
24
A.
No,
T h e r e w a ;? n ' t, t h a t in u ch of a f u n d .
)\ t
2 5 wa s by si pee 3 a .1 recoinmenda t.3.on tha t those Monnanto
NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
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n
a wa r d a wer o pa h s od o u I; ,
2. {) . W a n t. h a t -- w e ,r e y 11 9 i v e n aa p e c .i t 5 c
3 a. tn o u n t o t m o n o y e a e h y e a r I; h a I: y o u c o u I. d I', h e n
4 a 'I 1 o o a 1 e a m o n g y ou r e m p Joy e en a s yo\i aaw f. 5 1 J n 1. Fi e
5 1 n c e n t i. v e p r o g v a m ?
6 A . We. wou J d wX' j. t e up a s t.a 1 emen l. d e s c r 3. b 3 ng
7 h 1 ;3 work I: o r t he y ea.r , and that wou I. d go t o
8 p e r;; o n n e J . Hu t w e r o o o g n .1 zed how m a n y d o 1 J. ars had
9 been a. .1.1 <3 oa hed 1:.o o u r depar 1:inen t tor I: hat y ear . A.nd
J 0 ,n o in e h o w, w e w o u J d t h e n p u l. t. Fi e m 3. n t Ji e r a n k 3 n g a n d
i 1 g .1 v o .11 out i n t h a t t o r m .
.1 2
Q .Well, J e t. in e c; a
3 f: :t u n d e r s t and and j u a t
1.3 take a hypothetical. It, tor example, you were told,
J 4 th a t y o u h a d $25, 0 0 0 t o p a a a o u t in 3 976 , you would
1.5 .1 o o k a t I; h e e m p I. o y e e s w h o r (3 p o r t e d t o you an d d e e i d e
1 6 w h .i o Ft e. in p 1 o y o e n t o r e c o m in e n d t. o p a r t a c .i p a t e 3 n t. h e
17 l n o e n t i. v e p r (a g r a m ?
:i b A . Yes.
) 9 Q And y o u w o u .1 d p 3 c k o u t e n o u g Fi o in p J o y e e 3 a n d 2 0 I; h e :51 x e o f: 1: h e a. n c e n 1:1 v e s so t h a t you w o u l d u s e u p
2 J t Fi e $ 2 5 , 0 0 0 you h a d a v a .11. a b J, e ?
2 2 A . v. e :5 .
2 3 Cl - And you would not recommend more than
2d $ 2 5 , 00 0 tor incentives since you. knew you did not
2 5 Fi a v e .i t, c. o r r e c t ?
NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
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2.8
1. A . T It a I; ' s r i. g h t . 2 Q A n (3 w a s ,i t. a r e c o in in e Tt d a t a o n t ft a 4. you 8 S p c i. II 3. C a 3. 1. y r e v i. o w e d i n e a c h c a s e ? 4 A . Yes. 5 A n d n p e c 3 13 o. a 13 y a p p r o v o d ? 6 A , Yes . A n d t h e n i t w o u l d b e a - - go t o 7 M r . T3i rod ah .3 f o r h 3 t; a g r c. e in e n t. . 8 Q A n d was t h a t a p o v u ncto r y s t ep, do r 9 M T . IT 3i r o d a h .3 t o a g ree? 0 A . H o k n o w w e .11 eno u g h what w a. s going on s o 3 t h a t. It e w o u 1 d ~- wh en he approved 34., h e )< new w3iy 2 was a p p r oving :i t . 3 Q 0 3< a y . Ho, the: appi'oval process, 4.hen, 1. 4 would includrt not only you as the modi, o a.I director 3.5 o f M o n s a n t. o b u t a .1 a o Mr , T3* roda h 3.; i. s t h a t. cor r eo t. ? 1 6 A. Vos, 3 7 Q . A n d M r , T 3> v o (I a 3) 3 3t a d 13i e p o w e r t. o r e j e c 1 a I. 8 proposed inceii live program participation; is that 3 9 c o r r o o. t ? 2 0 A . Yoa . 2.1. Q . And 3) e )< ri e: w e n o u g h a b o u t t. h e b a sis f o r 13i e.
2 2 r o c o in m o n da. t i. o n t o k n o w I: h o r e ao n I; h o r e c o m in e n d a I: i. o n 2 3 w a s b c ,i n g )ii a d e a n d e v a .3 n a t e: w 3i e t3i e :r o r n o t. 3 4. s 3i o u 1 d
7.4 bo rewarded, correct? 2 5 I\ . W3 th tdie description t.3iat. w e w o u I (i turn A a 3)
NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
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l him, that would lead ho a d i. j? e u s 1 o n if h o ' d had 2 s o iii e g ucfi t :i o n . 3 Q. Did Mr, Tlirodfdi] (jet. the (leiicri pt.i on that 4 vi a !j p rov 1 d o d o n w h a t e v e i; J; o r m y o u us (-2 d I; (3 in a k to a 3 r e e o hi m e n d a t i o ri ? b A , ,T t h i ti ]< j; o . W ti e t. h e r t b a t w a:: d o n e a .1 .1 t. h e 7 time, X can't -- I can't say. It could have been 8 done just. by personne.1 working with him. 9 Q . Hul; w h e t h e r .1 t w a s t h e s p e c i. f: i. c t (2 r in o r 1 0 whether it. was personnel d esc rib 5. ng to him the I. I. i n h o i.' m a I; i o n in t h o I: o r m , M r . T hrodah lw a s a w a r e o f: 1 2 t h e r e as o n s a n i n c. e n t :i ve p r o g r a in p a r t ie i p a t ion w a s I. 3 X' e c o m m e n d e d by y o u ? 1 4 A. Yes. 1 8 Q. And he won.Id be the final decisionmaker on l 9 w h (21: h e t: o ,v n o t t, o a w a r d a n i n c e n 11 v e p r o g r a m J 7 p a r t i e i p a t i o ti b a s e d o n t h e w o r k o f t h a t. e m p 1 o y e e 18 I: h a I: y o u r e c o m itmmi e d ? i 9 A . Ye s . 2 0 f) . Mr. ThrodahJ was a member of the board of 2, 1 directors of: Monsanto, was he not?
22 A . Yes .
2 3 Q. He was a] ho a mom tier of the Management. 2 4 C o m m i. h t: e e .... a. n d 1 t h i n k i t g o o s b y d i. 1: f: o r e n I; 2 9 n a m e s t t h e C o r p o :r a t. e n e v e 1 o j> to e. n t C o in m 3 1.t e. e , t. b e
NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
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0 o 7.' p <5 r a I: e A d m i. n i. s l: v a t X v e C (5 m in i. t: te e , i: h e C o r p o r a I;e 2 M a n a g e in e n 1. C om hi .i tt.ee .... was ho not? 3 A . I'm n o X, s u r a I. I. o f! X. h e p o :s 1X. 1 o n 3 t It a t this 4 w a s c a .1 .'I e d , b () , I ' m rn o 1. s o o o n e e r n o, d a b o u t w h a X. 11 w a a 6 <: a I X o d , 7 A , Yes .
a Q. Ho was a member of that committee that,
9 w o t:' l< e d d i. r o c I: l y w i. t h X. h e p i: e s I d o n t o 1: the com p any, ] 0 w a s h e n o t. ? .11 A. There was an executive committee, and he
1. 2 w a. s n o t a m e m b e r o f: X, hat,
3 3 0,, 3 understand. Hut he was a member of the X 4 c o m in i. t h e e X. h a t w a s k n (5 w n I: r o m X, i. m e t o 1:1 m e a s t h e 1 3 u C o 7- p o r a X. e A d m i n i n t r a t i v e C o m m i tt e e " -- 16 A. Oh, yes. 1 7 Q , - - a n d t. Is e. " C o r p orate M a n a g e m e n t 1 B 0 o m m 1X,1 e e , " c o r r e c X. ? J 9 A . 3 don 1t -- th ere i s a t i t J e i n t. h e r e that. I 2 0 h a v e d i. 1: f: i c u 1.1 y with , T h e y d i.d c hange and got X, o a 2 I s m a 3 .1 er committee th a t was a X) o v e t h i s i n -- t h a t 3/ a. d v i. s' o r y c o m m i. t t e e , A n d h o w a s n ' t a p a v t (7 f t. ha t , 2 3 Q . 3 a e e . H u X. h e w a ?! a p a r t o f t h e 2 4 p r e s i. d c n I: ' s a d v L s (7 r.` y o o m m i h X. e e , c o 7' r e c X, ? 23 A . Yea ,
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HARTOLDMON0024196
I. Q . Ok a y , A n d h o h a I. d 1; h a 1 p o a i. 1; 1 o n I: h r ouijhon t: 2. the lime that you jeportetl to h :i in , d 3 d he 'not? 3 A . V e !3 . 4 () . J) 5 cl y o u e v e :r m a )< e a n y j tj c, e n 1.1 v e p r o g r a in 5 pari: ici pa I: i. on vecommondat I. om? 1. hah were rejected by 6 Mr . Ttiroclali 1 ? 7 A . I o a. ti ' t. r e c*. a .1 .1 on e t. hat h e :r e j e r. t e d . 8 Q . Yo u e a n n o 1 r o c a. 1. I. o n e ? 9 A . '! c. a n n o t r e c a .1 1 o n e h e r e j e c. led . I. 0 Q . I) i. d. y o u m a k o a n v I n c. e n 1: i. v o p r o g r o. in ] 1 p a r t i o :ip a t i o ri r e <*. o in m e n d a 15. o n n f o r j.) r . 14 r 1 cj h t ? l 2 I\, Yfis , 1 3 Q . 0 Ti h o w m a n y o e c. a s j o ri a d i d y o u r e o o m in e n d 14 Dr. W r i. g h I: t: oi' 1 nc e n 1- i vo p rog ram par 1 i <: 1.pa 1:1. on ? 1 b A . We've 1 a 1 k e d a b o u 1 1 h a. t r e c e n 11 y , and 1 - 1.6 1 h e r e a t: o 1. w o o 1 1. h e m 1 h a h c o in o I; o m i. n d . 1 7 Q . Who have you talked about that wi t. h 1 8 r o e o n 1:1 y ? 1.9 A . Wj th - - ... w .i 1 h M .1 )< e . 2 0 0. . A r (2 you 1 a. 11< 1 n g a. b o u i: M o n s a. ti bo's 1. a. w y e r 2. 1 7
2. 2 A , Y e :3 .
7.3 0 . 11 a h e s h o wn y o u t h o s e : r e c o m m e n d a t :i o n a ? 7.4 A . Y o :3 . 2 9 Q A n d h a v e. y on r o v ,i e w e d 1 h & in ?
NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
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32
I. A , YlU! .
2. Q. 'tel ,1 me about the first one, then, that. y o u 3 r o v i. e w o d w 1 h h Mr. Fruehwatd?
/I A . 1 - - 1 d o n ' t t e c a .'! .1 t h e m . if ' d. h a v e t. o 1 o o )<
5 t t h o in a g a i. n t o ....-
6 a. I ;; e e . l.et me show you a document 58799 7 t h a. 1; I b e 1. i e v e 1 s -- and i t ac t ua 11 y ca rr .1 os; on t o
0 5 8 8 0 0 ~~ that T b e il 1 eve i s t he? f x r s t r e c o w m e n d a t 1. o n
9 t h a t y o u m a d o a n d a s k y o u i. I: 1; h a t 1o n o o (: 1: h e t w 0
:i o r e c O Hi Hi e T) d a t. :`i O T) n you reviewed wi th M:r. Frxiehwald.
1.1 M R . F 1? 0 K 8 W A r, I) : T.t h a. t a n ft x h i b i t i It
J 2 1. h e Ll v ;i n s c u d e p o111 on ?
13 MR. LAC K Y .* T 1; 1 s a 1 s 0 a n o x h L b 1 t L n
14 t. h o: 1.1 V 1 T) ft ct u n d e p C) a 1 11 o n .
1. 3 M R . F B R tl W A L D ; T h a. t i., 1: h e n , w h e r e
1 6 h o h a a a e e n 11 , 1) ft h a s s e e n t h e L1 v 1. n a c u s e x h 1 b X t $ .
l 7 Q (By M r . h a c e y ) 11; h a 1. o n e o f: t h o
1 8 d o c u m e n 1. s --
1.9
A.
Yes ,
i. r .
2 0 a. - ~ 1. h a t y o u r e v 1 ew e d ? 2 1. A . Yes, 1 r . 2 2 o.. 'J1 h a t Is a recommendation for Dr. Wright * c;
2 3 P a r 1; i. o 1 p a 1; i. (5 n in 1, h e incentive program bared on
2 4 o (; r t a ,i T) a c. t 1 o n a 1 a )< e n w 1 t h r a g a r d t o c oriv.i nc j nq Dow
2 5 not to report problem:; of: a human health nature w i. t h
NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
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33
1 a o h o m i. c a. 1. 1: h a 1: M o n :i a. n t o :? o Id to D (5 w ; i. t? t h a 1; 2 c. o r T e. c t ? 3 A . No, u :i r , 1 d o n ' t t h i ri k that ' s t a t. a .1 .1 . 4 Q< 1 a e o , May I a o n 1; h e d o c. u m e n lw p 1. a a hd? 5 A . (W i 1. n e a a c. o in p lies) 6 Q T h o 1 a n g u a g e 1 n 1; h i. ;9 d o c u m e n t / i. t h a 1: 7 .1 a n g u a g e t h a t y o u a p p r o v e d ? 8 A . Yes. 9 Q And yon approved and agree wi t. h t h e 1 a o t I. 0 h h a 1; D r . W c 1 g h t ' :3 c o n d u a 1: 1: ores I-. a 11 e d a e h 1 on by 1: h e 3 1 FDA ? 1. 2 A . Yes . 1 3 MR. FRURHWAI.D; I a that. a d.i red. l 4 q u o 1; e ? 3 b Nobody e .1 a e c. an h e e t h e d o c u m e n t . I 0 o e s i t " 1 s 1: h a. 1; -- 1 a 1: h a t - - a r you p u r p o r 1: i. n g I 7 t o b (>. ~ t b a t ' a d .i r e c. t q \) o t e . 18 Q. (dy Mr. La e e y) " F o r e s tal l o d a c t i. to n again at 19 t h e p r o d a c 1. b y t h e F D A . '' T h a t ' a wh a t w a n - - t h a t ' u 2 0 w h a 1; w a i b -- 1 b w a 55 a 1.1. about, w a :5 n ' b 1 t ? 2 1 A . Yea 2 2 fi A n d t bi a 1'. ' a w bi y h o g o t the .i n e. e n t .i v e - 2 3 A , Y e i-i 2 4 Q - - w a. h n ' t i t. ? 2 5 A . (W i. b, n o. 55:5 n o d :5 h (5 a d)
NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
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I. Q . And I: ho e i. ra tim s I'.a na e s we re 3;ha I; Mon a a n I:o
2.
s o .1 cl ac. 3) oin ,i c a .3
to Dow, did 3 1. not?
3 A , 1'. d 1 d n ' t -- )'. don ' I; r e c a. 3. I. h h a I; ,
4 Q . 3 s e e . Y o u d o n ' t r e c. a .3 .1 w h y 11was t h a t
fi
Dr, Wri <j h 3;
was1 rvt eres 3; ed in k: e e p i. n g a Dowreport on
6 iaal 3 c anhydr.i de from being presented to the FDA?
7 A . Y o a , T. -- I r e m e m b e v 3; hat.
B fi Y o u ;') u s t. d o n ' t T- e c a 3 3 w it y - 9 A . T h e d e 3; a. 13, s to (; i. 1;, right.
1 0 0. I a e. e . Y o u d o n ' t r e c a 3 3 1. it a t M o n s a n t. o
I. 1. in a. 1. i.c anhydride to Dow?
3 3 A , No .
3 3 fi - .3 s o e . D o you r e o a 3.3 t. h a 3; D r ,, W r i g h 3. 14 accompanied Dow people to meet with the FDA about
3 3 p r o b 1 e m h w a t h m a 3 :i e a n 3i y d a- 3 d e ?
1.13
A.
Yes, b u 3: I he a r di 1. f r o m 0 e o r g e
T. w a s n ' t
3 7 d 3 r e c. t 3 y 3 n v o 3 v e d 3 n 3 1. .
1B
Q ,Is e e . T h a I; w .a s
a p a r I; of; I; h e b a. si. s 1: o v
3 9 y on r r ecomhi e. nd at 13 o n 3. o Mr. Tit r odah 3 13t a t Dr . Wr 3 g it t
2 0 gel; to participate in this incentive program, was it
2 1 r o 3. ?
2 2 .A . Yeri, s 3 r .
7 3 fi . Do you rcoa.l 3 how big the -- how much money
2 4 you. had available in the incentive program at the
2 B 3,3 m e 3. it 3 r* p a r 3.3 e u I a r 3 i t c e n 3.3 vo aw a r d was made?
NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
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I. A . No, S 1. V ,
2 Q . W b a t was t b e 1 a r g e s t a m o n n t o f: w o n e y e v e r
3 a v a i. 1 a. b I. e h o y ou t o d i s 1; t' i bu t 1 nt h e i. n c on t i. v o
4 a w avd p ;r o g r a m ?
5
A.
S o in e 1 b,i t> g 1 h e o r d c; ro f t e nt o t
w e .1 v e
6 t h ou.a a n d d o 1. 1. a rs f: oa; I: o t a. I. .
7 Q . Arid tha t was per year?
8 A . )! 1; v a. r i e d f: r o in yea r t o year.
9 Q . Okay, 8 u1 --
1. 0 A . ].' 1: w a s so m e 1; h 1 n g o t. h a 1; or d o r ,
:i :i a. . Wb a 1. 1 ' in s ay 1 ng : Yon wou .1 dn ' t. ha v e $3.0 ,00 0 X 2 P1 - c m o n . h ? X 3 A . No, i) o , No. Per year.
14 Q - 'l.' hi u I n c e n t .1 v e a w a r d - - a n d 1 e L m e hand Y <> u 3 5 1 h e d o o u m e n 1 a g a 1 n , T) o c u m e n t 8 8 7 9 9 , 9 8 8 0 0 - - was
1. 6 ia ..i d. e 1: o ' 1. 9 7 b a n d w a s $ 2, , 8 0 0 - -
:i 7 A . y e & .
1.8 Q ... - was i. t; not?
3 9 A . Yea .
2 0 Q.. Now, i. h a 1. w o vi 3 d b e a very s o b i t a a t. ,i a .1 2 1. p o r t i. o n o 1: t h e h o 1: a 1 a m o u n t o t: t h e m o n e y a v a 3. i. a b I. (5
2 7. f or lb 0! ,i n e e d 1. i v e a w a r d p r o g r a m .i n 3 9 7 8, would i t. 7.3 n o t ?
2 4 A , Y e s , a i r . A n d - - a n d t b e r e a h o n , 1.1) a t. i. i
2 b s o m w h a I related lo his -- his salary at $ 2 8 , 0 0 0 .
NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
HARTOLDMON0024201
1 i: t ' s a b <3 u 1: .1 0 percent, and I: h a t:'s ..... w h <3 n w e g .r v o A f:
2 o u t, i t w o u .1 d b c b o in e t h A ti g o f t h a t o r d e r 5. f i t w a s
3 go i n g to be worthwhile at a 1. 1 .
4 Q 0 k a y , May T have the document back. 3 P'l. e a s e ? 6 A , (W A t T) ess c. o in p ,1 A e 5 )
7 Q . N o w, you in o n 11 o n e d 1: h a t you r e o a 1.1 ed m a k 1 n g 0 a a e c. o n d A T) c e n t. A v e a w a r d r e c o in in e n d a t A o n w A t h r e g a r d
9 1: o 0 r . W r i. g h t . W h a 1; d o y o u c e c a I 1. t h a 1: r e ]. a t1. n (j t o ?
:i 0 A . I d o r> ' t r e c a J .1 t h e. d e t. a A. As of t. h a t o n e ,
1. I. R i. 1: h e r :t 3 a. I a e e , I. e t m e ii a ti d you another' d o e u m e n t,
13 Docunteirl; 98893 , a.nd ask if: that is the second
] 4 d o c u in c-> T) t you T' e v ;i e w e d w A t h Mr. F r u e h w a .1 d a b o u t.
1. 5 i n c o n t i. vc aw a r d s t o D v , W r i. g h I:,
] 6 A. I r e m e tn b & r the ..... I -- A signed 5 1., yes.
1 7 Q . r.s that the one that you reviewed?
1 8 A . Yes, air.
] 9 0 . T b :i b A. a t h o v e r y nex t y e a r f o 1.1 ow j ng i. h e
2 0 a w a r d o n t h e m a l i c a. n h v d. r 5. d e w o r k , c o r r e c I : ?
2 :i A .. Yes .
2 9. Q , A n d , o 7i c e a g a A n , i ii e j- e e o in in e n d a 1. A o n
23
made ,
l t3 i t approved by you?
2 4 A . Yes, : A r .
2 9 <) Was L !: a p p r o v o d b y Mr. `V h r o d a h 1 ?
MELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, IMC.
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1. A . Y <3 :s . 2 0. T hi c; a w a r d w a n p a ;i d ? 3 A . Y o is / :3 1 r . 3 {> <3 o , Dr . Wright got to part. :i (; i pate .in the 9 3. n c o n t i. v e r> w a rd p r o g r a m 1; wo y e a rs In a r o w ? 6 A . Yea , n i r . 7 Q. W a I; h a t c u 1: o m ary? 8 A . T 3i e r 63 wan a rea] r o o o g n 5 t. i o n 13i a t cert a :i n 9 m e in b e r n o 1: 1; h o group we v e the o u t k t a. n di, n g :i 0 p e; t f o 'r m e r n , a n d 3i 6: wan o n e o f 13i e m , 1 1. Q. Re 3; wo en the f; i. r s t a war d a nd t h e s econd :i 3 award do y ou r(ae a X 1 w3i e 13i er or not. Dr . Wright h a d 13 g o I; t e n a !? a 1 ary i n c r e a n e ? 3 -1 A . 03) v i ou a 1 y . 'P3i e .lan t. one X 3. o oked a t wa a 1. !3 2 8 , 0 0 0 . Tli .1 ;3 o it e i. 53 1. i. :3 t e d a t 3 I. , 0 0 (3 o r n o in c-3 t h L n g J fi o f 13i a t o r d e r . 3 7 Q > :r 3) e 3 i e v e t3i e J: i r a t o n e w a s 2 8,9 8 0 . 1.8 A , R L g h h . 3 9 Q And tlie --- thin ..... the current salary in 3 0 3 1,8 0 0 . 2.3 A . R 1 g 3i 1. . 2 2 Q . T )i a t ' a r a 1 s e o f ;j u n t under $3 , 0 0 0 ? 2 3 A . Yen . 2 A Q W a a 13i a t a v e r y g o o d r a i a e ? 2 3 A , 11; would be i. n (<<363plug with our salary
NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
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38
I.
schndul.fi
in Mo nsanto , And at that time it was
2 r u n r .3 ft g h o m e t it 3 n cj .3 3 k e 9 p e r c e r> t , A n d t h o sc --
3 we * t: ti vo ry orga n i v. ed . 0n t h e y ea.r 1.y da I:e whon i t ' s
4 r e v 3 e w e d a n d d e p e n d A ti g w h e r e ii e w a s 3 n li 3 s s a 3 a r y
')' sc lifidulo, his raise would be proportion.? to based on
6 it o w m u eh w a s a v a 3 3 a b 3 e ,
7 Q . 0\J e r e I; h e v a i. s e s , t h e a n n u a l r a 3. s e s a t
8 Monsanto based in part, on the mer3tor.3ous work of
9 e m p toy e es ?
3 0 A . 8a 3.a ry , no 1. a ppa r en t.1 y , '.I?he bonu s
3. 1 i. ncen t ivos was.
3 3. Q . 8 o t ii a t i. 3i c>. r a 3 s e. t. ii a t D r . W r i g h t. g o t 3 n
13 h i. s a n n u a I. s a l a. r y v e v i e w s at M o n santo wo u Id not hav e
J 4 d 3 f f e r e d fro ru t h e r a 3. so provid e d t o any o t h e r
I. 9 e m p 1. o y n e'?
1 6 h. 0n.3y related to where lie was .in h.3s
1. 7
pos i t ion
w i t h in It i a s a 1. a r y s c. a l e .
38
Q.3 see. Other p e o p 3 e 3 ti salary
Grade 39
19 w o u 1. d h a. ve go I; ton t h e s a in e r a i. s e , then, in 197 6 t Ii a t
2 0 I) r , W t 3 g it t g o t. ?
23
A.
13 a s e d o n w h e t h e r ii e. was -
3 f lie was a t t h e
2 7, t o p o f h i s s a, a. 1 e , he wo u I. d n ' I; g e t a. s in u e h a n d 3. t
2 3 won 3 dfi't l'.e as frequent.. It would be scattered out.
2 4 t o 18 mo n t li s o v mo r e .
2 h Q. Now, .let me ask you to look at this second
NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
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1 r o r, o in in mid a t i o n , I: h o 19 78 roc ommo.inlat ion , (Tor I', he
2 :i i) c e 7) f 3 v p r <> g r a m p a r t 3 c :i p a i 5 o rt , 'J* b e a w a r d c a 1. e <j o r y
3 is shat ed on the docinnRii I; to be, " T e e h n i. e a 1.
4 a c <: o in p .1 5 a h m a. n 1. o f <; ,i g n 3 f 3 c. a r> 1. r e ss n 1 1. a . " W b a 1. d o e a
b b h a. t m o a n 7
6 ]\ , W a. c o Vi 1 d 1 o o 1< a t t boa e. who w a. w e r o 7 r e c o m m o n <1 i. n g f: o r; .1 n c e n t i. v e a w a r d I: h a t. h ad do n e
8 a oirie t.b :i ng that was more than we expected ou t of mos t
9 t h e p e o p I. o , w I \ o w e r <5 e 1. o a r I. y above w h a. t t h a v a s I; o f: 3 o t be poop] e 3 n -- an the department were get. tiny.
1.1. Q . W a J. 1 , 1: g u a a s w h a t I ' in 1: r y :i. 11 g t o f: l n d o u t
j 2 ,i s whe th erI.It a t ' n a a pe c i f i c: ca t e.g o:r y f or t.h e
13
a w a, r d .
Itsa y ;? "Aw a r dC a t a g o r y ,r ;
a n d j. 1; s a y ;$
3 d " T e e b n 1 o a .1 a e c o m p 1 5 3 b m e n t o f s: 3. g n 3. f 3. c: a n t r e si u J t. s . "
1. 8 A rt d. i. h <7 r e a s on I ' in a 0 k i n g , i. n I; h .a I;
J 6 k a m e b .1 a r> k 071 t h e p :r e c e d 3 n y a w a. r d 3 n 3 9 7 8 , t h e awsr d
1 7 o a I: e (j o r y w a. s , q u o I; e , " 8 o I. u t i. o n t o p 1; o d u c b t. o x L e 1 I; y 3 8 ]) :r o 3> .1 e in w h 3 e h p e r m 3 11 e d M o ti si a n t. o t o c. o n 1.3 rme p :r o d u cI.
1.9 in a n u I: ..1. c b u c 1 n g a n d :? a 1. o , "
2 0 Is; that, a (different category from this;
2 I ca kego vy ?
2 2 h . No, s; 3 :r . No, ;i 3 r . 1 -- 1 13i 3 ti k 3 t w a s;
3.3 jusl'. the way George I', i, v i. n s c 11 n had -- had decided to
?.d f 3 J .1 3 t. 3 n .
2 8 Q . 0 Is a y . T h e r e w e r e n ' t s; p a. c. 3. f 3 e c a t o g o r 3 a. 3 ?
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1. A . No - - n o , s i r . 2 0. - vl u a t a d e s er1p11on of wh a t ' s g o i n g o n ?
3 A . Yes, s i r .
i). - 1, c t in ('. show y o u t h e p r e o e d 1 n g y e a r , An d 5 o n e o f t h e I; h ings about the preceding y e a i; w a s you
6 c o u;1 d n * t g e t the d e s c r .i p t i. o n t h a t D r . Li v 1 nsiou s us ed
7 1 n 1t h i. s box on the florin designed tor i t, c o u 1 d you?
8 A . J u s t abort. .
9 Q - We 11 , the one on the preceding year. h e 1 0 a c t u a .1 .1 y h a d t. o d r o p d o w n a 3.3 n a t o f i n :i a h i t,
I. I. d 1 <i n ' I: h e ?
1 2 W i .1 3 you loo k a t. t hat a w a r d c a t. ogory?
13 A , (Wit n e s ;5 c o in p 1 ios ) T h e next sen te n ee
3 4 certain 3 y 1 a n ' t a p a r t
of tha t .
1. f> 0.. W I. I,, If! you' 1. 1 1 o o l< i. m in e <1.1 a. I: e 1 y b e low - -
J 6 why d o n ' t y o u j u a t r c a d w h a t y o u u n d e. r s t a ;n d t. ob e
I. 7 1. h e d e s c r i. p t i. o n o l" I; h e a w a r d o a t e g o r y o n I: h a t
3. a d o c u in e n t ?
1 9 A . (Witness c. o m p .1 i. e s ) 0 h , yes, you're rig h t. .
2 0 1 w a :5 r e a d i. n g I: h e next Li. n e w h e r o it says, " D r . P a u I.
21 W r 1 g h t . "
2 2 Q. Y e a h . J t -- .i t w a s 1) a r d t o e v e n r e a d t h a t 2 3 f o r m 1) e c a u s e 1, h e d e s c v i. p 1; i. o n o 1: 1; h e a w a i." d e a t e g o r y
2 4 .in 19 7 5 a xce. e d e d t h e fi :'t x e o f t h e b o x for i. t ?
2b A , Y e , R i. <j h 1; .
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'I :i
Q . wh a I; w a s t h o a w a r d o a t; o g o r y d e s i:r i. p t1 <5 n i. n
2 .19 -- '.I 'in a orry . strike that.
3 W h a I; w a. s I; h e a w a r d c a I: e g o r y
A dosicri p1.:i on i n the 3973 award that wan given to
r> D r . W r 1 g It I', ?
6 A . `.P h a s a rs a rt .i n c e n t. 3 v e a w a r d , a s 1; a r a s o u r
7 d o p a r tme n t i b e o n c e r n e d , T his award o a I; n g or y re F. e r s
8 jii o r e. g e; ti e r a 1 t o M o t> s arito , A rt d .it. was -- w a s n o t
9 w 1 I: It i n (3 u r d e p a r t m a n I; a ward o a t e g o r y <
.1 0 Q . W e 1 .1, w h a t -- w h a t w a s f 3 .1 .1 e d 1. rt o t> t h a
l I. 1978 form hhal: you signed, in luri.herance of: seeking
.1 2 the award for Dr. Wright ? What did it, say?
1.3 A. "8olu Irion to product toxicity program" --
.1 A " p r obi e m which p e r in 3. 11 e d M o n a a ti t ot. o c o n 13 n u e
I. 8 p r o d u o t m a. n u f: a c t u r 1 ng an d s a 1 e , "
.1 6 Q > 0 k a y , A n d t h a t w a a w h a t t h a t a w a r d w a s a 1 .1
L 7 a. b o u t ?
1 8 A . T h a t w a a t h e t .3 11 e f o r 3. t, rea 1.1 y .
19 Q , A n d, 1; h e 1. 9 7 n a. w a r d was n o t s u b s t a n t 1 a .11 y
2 0 differ e n t. 3 t terms of the type of conduct ...... let me
2. .1. c h a n g <3d o c u m e n t s w 1 1. h y o u .
22
A .(W 3 1. n o j! s c o m p 13 e s
)
2 3 Q . T h e 1. 9 - - t h e I 9 7 ha w a r d. w a. s n o t
2 A a u b s 1, a n 13 a 1 1 y d 3 f. f e. r e ti t 3 n t. h e t. y p e o f c o n d u c t t h a t
2 8 1. o d I; o i.I: s a w a r d I; h a n w a s h It e .1. 9 7 8 a. w a r d , w a s 1 h ?
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42
I. A . No , i. t, w a s n o t ,
2 Q. 0 ii e c o u .1 d h a v e d e :; e r 3 bed t h e J 9 7 6 a w a r d 3 e X .1 0 t 1. Y t ho s a m o w a y 1: h o 1. 9 7 ii a w a r d w a s d o o r i b c d ,
d 0 o u .1 d7i ' t ;i t ?
5 A . yo s ' 6 Q Bee a u e , 3. ti f a c t, the 1976 a w a i- d was a .1 s o 7 g 1 v e n f: o r " S <51 u h .1 o n 1; (5 p i` o d u o 1; t o x l c j. 1; y p r o b 1 o in
8 w h i e h pe r m .i t t ed Mo n s a n t o t o a o n t. 5 n \i e p r odu o t
9 ma n u fra c 1; ur i. ng a n d s a i. e " ?
3. 0 A .
<
s
s :i r .
J 1 Q Now, t h e s i t u a t .i o n w A t h r e cj a :r d -- s trIke I. 2 1: h a 1: .
13 '.1' h e J 9 7 f> award d ,i d ri 1 t r e 1 ate t o in a .1. i o
1.4 a n h y d r i. d o , d 1 d .11 ?
i r> A . No, fi.i )- .
I. 6 Q . I t r o 1 i. bed 1: o P 0 B ' s ? J 7 A . Yes, s i r , T h a t s p a r t o f: 3 1. .
I. 8 0 . The - - t h e t e w a is o n o o 1: Ii e 7.' p r o d u (71 i. n
:i 9 t A on t. o t h e p c b 11 s t h a t was a I f o 3 n c: .1 u d e d ,
2 0 not?
?. :i A ,. Ye S , 71 i r ,
2 2. Q . I wa ri t t o a s k y o vi a o w e ({ 71 <:i s t 3 o ri s a b o u t t h e 2 3 s i. h u a. 1 i. o n h ha. t n x i. s 1; o d w 1 1; li v o g a. nl b o P C B 1 when you
?A o a in e l . o Mo 71 s a n t. o 3 n 1 9 7 3 ,
2 5 H a d you h a d a n y d e a. 1. i. n g s w i. t h P C B ' :?
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/l 3
p r i. o r t; o j o i. n 1 n g M o n s a. n I: o as I: h e a s s i.s I; a n t m o d 1 c a l c'l 3 r e c 1. o r 3 n g r o o m 3 n g f o r b <:; c o m 3 n g in e d 3 c a J d 3 r e c: i. o r ? 3 A , N o , s i .r . A Q Wh a t k n o w 1 e d g c: d 3 d y o u h a v e a t. a 1 J w 3 t h 8 r e g a. r d t o w h a t PGB's were when you began y o u r (; i r s 6 d a y on 11) o j O 1) a t M o n s a n t o ? 7 A . Only t h 1 n g I k n c w a b o u t t h e m a t I: h a t time 8 wa s t. h a t the r e w a s an env 3. r o n m e n t a .1 c. o n c e r n a b o u t 9 PGB ' s , J 0 Q. Did you ~~ d 3. d you even know what the I. I. letters PGR stood tor your (first day on the job? J 3. A . 1 think T did. I'm not a c h e m 3. st, b u t I
1.3 p rob o. b I. y d i. d ,
.1 4 Q , Okay . Was one of y o u r j o b a a a t. h e i b a. s s o e i. a t e m e d i. o o. I d i r e o 1; o r -- - o r a s s 3. s t a n t m e d i c a 1. 1 f. d 3 r e e t o r a n d t hen m & d 3 c a .1 d 3 r e c. tor of M o n a an t o t. o I. 7 become involved in the PCB problem? J 8 A , No. J 9 Q . D 3 d you h a v e a n y d e a 3 i n cj s at a X3 w 3 t. h t. h e 2 0 I? G B p r o b I. e in ? 2.1 M1? , P H11 ): B W A L D : be t m e. - - y o u 'v e u a e d 2 2 t h e t e r m "PGR p r o b I. e in " I; h e r e . 0 a. n y o u d e 11 n e 2 3 what. -- what you mean by that, your -V 2 4 Q . (B y Mr. [ / ace y) Wei 1, t he prob1e m 1 2 8 wo\ild the word -- .language 3 would use 3 s the
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I. " p r o d u cI: I; o x i c i. t y p r o l) .1. o m , " !: h o a m o I. o r in i. n o I. (5 g y
2 1 h a t w e' v e p re v 3 o u s 1 y a g r e e. d w o u .1 d d e a e r A h e 1. hi 3 s
.3 p r o b l e in . T h a t; ' s w h a. I; I; la e I? C 1} p v o b .1 o in w a s , w a. a n ' t
4 3 I?
M R . F R U K H W A 1, )) ; W e 1 .1 , Mr. - - R r . R o U a b
6 h a a a I. :io (Ito a c t: i. bod an e n v i. ro n me n I: a I. conourn wh on he
7
came on board,
and be may be confusing toxicity with
B e n v i. r o n m e n (: a I. cone e. r n s I:h a t --
9 MR. t. AOFY; We 3.1, let. -- .let me get
I. f) t h a k. o ). a. c i. I: :i. e d l. bon ,
1 .1 MR. F R 0 H1IW A I.)) : P 3 ea s <; d o .
1. 2 Q ( B ,y M v . r.. a. c e y ) 0 n e oC 1: h e p r o b I. e in s w 1.1; h 3 3 P C H ' s w a s a p r a d n c*. t t. o x 1. c 1 t y pr oh .1 km, was n ' t 1 t ?
I. 4 A . N o I: t h a. 1; T. w a. s a. w a. r e 0 1: .
a. W e 3 3 , 1 e t m e ee 1 f 3 can clarify tha t, I. b' t h e n . When w o 1: .1.1. ic .1 b o u 1: t, o x i c i. i. y - -
1 7 A . yea ,
IB o . - - W e 1 v C t a 3 k 1 n g a b o u i. a n a d v e r s e e f. f e o t o f
19 a o h co in i. o a. 1. . An d. / in parti cu 1. a. r , Li o c a. n 1: a. 1. k a bo ul; 2 0 a n a d v c :r s e e f f e c 1. o n h u m a n s , c a n w e n o t ?
2 I. A , l n I; o x 1. C i. 1:. y , y e s .
2 3 0.. A n d 1 s 1 t. your ten 1.1 mony that you know of 2 3 n o q ti e s h i. o n s o v e r raised a. bon l; I. he t; o x i e i. t y o l: PCll's 2 4 r e g a :r d 1 n g h u m a n s '?
23 A . When?
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I Q . Durituj t h o time I; hat you were modi, cal
2 d 3 r o. c t o r f o r M o n ,c: a n 3. o a t d w h a I. y o u d e a 3 t w \ t. b .
3 A. . T h a t ' s ,i d 3. 1: f: o r e n t -- -- I-. ha 1: inn' 1: I: h o
/I q u e a t 3 O 1) 3 13) 3 n k y o u a s k e d hi e be; f o re ,
b Q W o 3. 1. , i: ' 111 !3 o r v y , bo 1; in e m a k e i t very 6 c 3 e a :r , hr. c a u s e 11 w a {,* 3 n t. e n d :i n g t. o a fi k yo u t h a t.
7 q uhh I; i. on.
B MB. FPUKBWALD: Wo; 31, y o u asked u ff
9 a hou 1; 1; h o p r o b 3. e in s i. n u 1: a d o fi h o x i. c i. t y .
1 0 MB', 1, A C !4 Y ; Well 3, no. I - -- I 3 n t e n d
1. L t o ,
:) 2 Q . (.V Mr, Lacey) Let's -- 3 e t. 1 h m a k e 3 3. 13 a. 1. e a. r , W o ' r e t a. 1. k 3 n g a b o u t prob 1. e m :? .
3 4 A , yes .
:i b Q - A n y t. 3 m e a e h e m .3 e a 3 .3 s t. o x 3 c. t o h u m a n
16
h o 1. n g s
i. 1:'s a p r o 1; I. e m , L :3 n ' 1; i. t ?
3 7 A . 3 t a 3.1 depends on whet, her t. h e - - t h e
LB p r o b I. o m i. :i h a. n d 1. e d -.... w h e t h o r t h o 1; O X i. 0 i. 1; y 3. s
3 9 p :r o d u c 3 ng an e f f e c 1. a n d m a. n o r n o t , I f 3 t 3 55 n o 1.,
2 0 I: i) e n 3. t i. :3 n ' 1: .
2. 1 Q . We 3 3 , t.Li o cj u e s 3. :i on ..... a. nd, a g a 3 n , :i f t. h o
2 2 r. h o m L e a l i 3 t o x 3 O t o b u m .1 n s , then i. t c a n p r; o d u e o a n
3.3 el f e c 3. .3 n m an, c: a 7i 3 3. n o 1., 3) y d e i 3 n 3 ll. 3 o n ?
2 4 A . T (: i. 1; c; a n gel; into m .1 n . I! 1; h a s - - h h at ' :3
2 b r e 3 a 1'. o; d 3. o a o in e 3. hi n g e 1 s e . '.i h a t ' 5i a 3i a x a r d o f 3 t .
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'I.' h a. I; ' :? a d. i. I: f: o r e n I; u b j e c I; .
2 Hut you -
3 Q . I-' I: .....
4
A , I 3) a v o p r o 3> 1 e. in a w h e r e w e a r e a s
wlien wo
;9 1; a r 1: e, d, t h i. s muwerii a. 1; A on, w e w e r a 3: a 1 k ,i. n g a. bo u I;
6 when :i e a m (9 i. o Mon s a n l o . And from t h e t ;i m e we go t
7 t o M o n a a n I; o to w h e r e w e are now, it <: a. n 1) o a
B d :i f f e r e n t a u b ;) e. c l. ,
9 C> . W e 3 3 , .'let me try to make A t very c. .1 e. a r . LO 0 n e o f t b e things th a t. you h a. v o d e a. 1t, w A. 3; l\ in y o u r
3 ! t. e T) u r e w :i 13t M o n k a n t o A s a p r o d u c t. t o x A c A t. y p r o b .1 e m
i. 2 r e 1. a I: e d 1; o b 0 R ' n , i. i5 i, t not?'
:i 3 A . Ye a ,
3 4 Q A n d w e ' T* e t a 3 k A n g a b o u t a t. o x .A o A t. y p r o 3> .1 e in I. 5 v i ;s - a. - v i, :5 , man are we not? ! 6 A ,, Y e tj
3 7 0. . Ok ay. Now, b e r. a u ;'> o 13i e r e w a a a p :i" o d u c. 1 !.B 1: o x i. <: 1 t V b r o b 1, e m w i. t. h. P C. B ' :3 a s r o 1. a t e d 1; o in a n / d i d 3 9 y o u e c o in o A n v o 3 v e d i r> 13i a t p r o b 3 e m A t) a n y w a y ?
2 0 A , Ye :s .
2 I Q 0 k ay. A ad w 3i a t. d A d y o u d o t. o f a. m A 3 .i a r .3 7. e 2 2 y o u r s o 3 f: a. t h e m e d i. e a, 1. d i, v e e i. or of M o n s a n 1; o w i, i. h
2 3 the :'i .s u e r: An the PC 11 p r o d u c. t 1. o x A c. A ty prot) :i e iii ?
2 4 A , h (i re w.3:? <5 n I. y on L:? s u t ha. 1: I.' re a I, 1 y
2 9 b o c a n e ;i n v o 3 v e c'i 5 n , A n d t. 3) a t w a a t h e
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1 o a r c i. n o g o n i o i. 1'. y au copor '3. o d 3 o u n l) y 0 V . r< i. m l) r o u g h t 2. a n d 4 t h i r> ]< f! 3i o wan a 1. 4.3ta 1 l. j III o w i 3 h 4. 3i o 14 V A . 3 Q - W n 1. 1 , 3o3 mo ..... 1 <1 3 m o s 3. o p . 4 A .1 .1 :r 4 g 3rl. , 3 ;i :i 3 you :r t. 0 i! 4. 4 m o n y 4 3i a (. r> 1: h o o n l y p rod u c. 1'. 3, O X 1 <'. X 1'. y p v o b 1 o m w i. t; h F> c n ' :? was 6 w 'h o 4. h e :r 4 1. C <.l U a e d c a n o o r o r 4.3i a 3. 3 ha 4. * q t. 3i o o n 4. y o n e 7 y o u a o a nt o i n v o 1. v e d x n ? B 71 ,, T 3i a 4. ' ?! 4.3t e o ri 3 y o n e I ii e c. a m o .1 T) V O 1 ved 4 n, 9 U M.1 h o r a w o r o o 3 h a i' p r o d u c 3 3. o x i. 0 ' 4: y [) V O !) 1. (3 111 3 3 0 w :i 1. >i p c n ' k t> e 8 i d o 8 <: a n c. o r, w o r o 3.3i e r o ti o 4. V l. :l. A . You' l 1. h a. v (5 3 o go a g a i n a n d 1; a 3 k a b o u 3 :i 2 " t.o x 4 a 4 3'. y p r o b 1 O III f{ . " J 3 Q- Wo .1 3 , 3 o 4.'s - - 3 e 4. ' 8 8 o e. i f W O c a n m a 1c e 4 4: 3 4 v o r y t: 1. o a v , 3 B A (". 3t o. in ,i c. a .1 4. 3i a 4. w 4 ] 3 r. a u a e c h 1 o r a o n o i. fi e nc h 1 b i. 3. n a i:. o x i. o i. 3. y p r o b 1. o hi , d oo :? i. 3. 11 o 3? 3 7 A i 4 1 3t a :i a poLorit. .i a .1 f or -- 4.o 3i o 5 n g a 1 8 3. o x i. r. i 1; y p i' o b 1, o in . 3 9 Q W e. 1 1 , i f a c 3i o in 3 C a 3 c a a u o n o 3i J o r a c. T) O .1 Tl 3.0 3 ha 1; p e r :3 o n - - 1. o 3, ' !i j U 8 t 3. a k o a. n i. n d i. V i. <1 u a 1, A 7. 3 p o r ri on w 3i o ' n 3> o en expo,no d 4. o a o 3) o in j o. a .3 a i) d 3i a u 2 7, d a v a 1 o p a d r. h 1 o v .) a n o . R o h 0. H fV I*. o x i t: 1 l:y p r o b 4 o m 2 3 o a n m e d b y 4. 3i a 1. c. 3i ti in 4 v. a 3 .... 2 4 A . Yo s . 2 b Q - d o o* u 3i ('. n o 3. ?
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l A . Y e :s ,
2 Q. A n d a h .1 o :r a o n a A a n o t a o in a t h 3 ng that rat:\i.l i n 3 t r o in a p p 1. i c a t i o n o f: t h e c h o m i. c a 1 t o t h o s k i. n a t o n e
-1 po;i n 1, and t h a c h .1 or- a c. n a d eve]o p A Ti g a t. one po hnt, A n
5 A. t ?
6 A . (No 3' e a p o n n e )
7 Q. C h 1 o r a. one i. s a ;s y n t e m i. c p v o b .1. o m ? 8 A . Not -- not to in y m A. n d .
9 Q . T nee, 113 i. t y o u r t e a t1 iri o n y t ti a t c h 1. o r a c n e 1 0 w A .'I.1 o D.'I y d e v o 1 o p a t t h e p o A n t w h e 7" e t At a c. ha in A c. a .1
1.1 h a i; c o ma i n t: <7 o o n 1; a o t w ith the s k 1 n ?
1 2 A . K o 7" p r a c t :i c a 1 p u 3- p o it a a , t h a t ' a o o :r r a c t.
1 3 Q, I wee. B o, you do not a.s a doctor who i. ;>
14 H o ar d c. e 3't 5 f A a d A n c>c. c u p a t A o n a 3. m a d A e :! n e h ci .1 d t h e
15 o p i. n i. o n t h a 1; c h L o v a cue i. :3 ev i. d e n c e o (; a s y i3 t n m i c
1 6 a f f a o t / A n 1. h a t C O T T' e o t. ? 17 A , Y e s .
1 8 0. Now, A f a c h e in A c a 1 w A 3 .1 c a u n* e .1 A v e :r d a in a g e
1.9
i. :3 t h a. t <3 v 1. d o n C (3 o 1!
k o x L c 1. ty problem wi t h t h e
9.0 c. h a in A c a .1 ?
21 A . 11. h a i p o t croti a.1 of b e A n g a t. o x A e A t y
2 2 p r: o b l e m , V (3 13 , 'i: 1: d o n i3 n ' t in e .a n i. 1: i. u .
2 3 Q :t r a t. c a u n o n 1 A v e r d a in a g c , t h o n A t. A n a 2 4 t o x 1 o i. ty p r o b 1. e m ?
2 b A . W h e n A t d o ( n , t b e n A t A ` a p :r o b 1 e in ,
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'1 9
Q, Wow, I'll. I.,) I. k to you 1. a I; or a b o n I; all. the
2
t. y p f-:!? of toxic.it. y prnh louii!! that.8 OH ' a can
c anno.
3 8 u I; 1? C H ' s o a n o a u o o h I. o r a. o n e , o a n they n o I; ?
4 A . 1 1 in r> o t n n re .
5
Q.
1 :5 e e . P 0 H ' n o a n o a u .s e1 i. v o r <1 a m a <j e ,
oa n ' t
6 t h c>. y ?
7 A , Yen.
8
Q . Okay.
W i t hr e. 9 a r d t o 1 i v e r d a m a g e , i f
9 l.'CH'u eause 1. i. v e r damage;, then you have a !: o x i. ei by
1 0 p r o b .1 e. 111 w i t ti I' 0 H * u , d o y o u ri o t?
I. L A , 1 f: i. 1; (.10 e n 0 a u u 0 1. L v 0 r e l: f: 0 01 s , t h e n t h a t:'s
J 2 a p r 0 b 1 e m , y e. ft .
13 Q A r1 d t ti a t 5 n u 0 m 01 h .i n g t. h a t P OH's can 0a u :s 0 , !. 4 0 0 c r ci 0 t ?
:i r, A . Y e a .
] 6 0. Now, to id a ]', e. m y q u 0 t i 0 n v 0 r y 0 .1 0 a r , t h n 1.7 0 11 l y 10 x i. e i. t y p r 0 l) 1. 0 m 0 1: P C H ' n h h a 1; y 0 u d 0 a. 1 1: i*/ i. t h
1 8 a 5 111 0 d ;i 0 a 1 d 5 r 0 0 10 r w a a t. ti 0. 0 ti 0 01: c a n c or , c or to 0. t ?
1.9 A , Y 0 n .
2 0 Q. - Y 0 u d ;i d a ' t'. g 01. :i n v 0 1 v c d i r> t h c .1 i v 0 r 2 I t: 0 x !. 0 i. t y p robl. emn that P CD's c 0 u I. d. c a. nun, cor reel; >
2 2 A , T h a t. ' ft r .i q h 1. .
2 3 0. Or any 0 t h 0 r 1; 0 x in i. t y p r 0 h 1. e. m n b h a. 1:, P C 8 ' A 7.4 could can f! 0 , 0 0 r T 0 c t ?
2 8 A . 1 wan mom than per i. p h n r a. 1..!. y i. n v 0 1, v e <1 i. n
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.1 the environmental, i. issues .And the i. m p 1. i. e a t i. o n of: what
2 that ')< i n d of oxpoii ro eon.'Id bo .in the. way of of
3 c. r e o 1: 1. n t j a. p r o b I. o m ,
4
0,,
Wo.l.'l , .1 cl. m o an); yon at) out that..
The
b reason that there wo. s concern about pen's i. n the
6 eiivi romiieiit was, In part, concern about what,
7 I; o x I o i. t y pr o b I. e tn s I: h a t wou I. d c o. u s e t o p eo p 1. e who
fl e a in e 3 Ti l. o c o n t a c t w i t h P C. I i ' s t h r o u g h t h o
9 o n v i. r o n m o n t; i. n't. I: h o. t c o r r e c t. ?
3 0 A . Th e ..... t h o. p a t e n i: I a 1 f o r .i t c a u s I n g t b e.
I. 1.
p r o b I. e ms, w b o I; h a r I: h e y h a d b eeii o b s o r v e d o r n o t,
It
3 3 r e a .'I .1 y 3 , " C. a n .3 l. , a t 1. h a t .1 e v o 1 , o a u s e a
J. 3 p r o b 1. e m ? "
1 6 p. And that wan otic: ofthe reasons/ for the
I. 5 e n v i, r o n m e n t a l c o no e r n a. b o u t I? 0 H ' s , w o. s l t no I: ?
I 6 A . Y e :: .
3. 7 0. 0 J< ay, .A n d yo u a .1 si o b e c a in e .1 n v o 3 v e d , t h e n , I 0 T. t. o. k e l I;, i.n 1? C H I; o xt c i. I: y p r o b I. c m s <51: h o r 1; It a it
3 9 c a n c e r f o r p e o p .1 o wh o w ft r e e x p o g e d env.i r o n in e n t ally ;
2 0 I s I: It a 1: c o r r e o It ?
23
A.
y e , but 3 t.was apcr.i phcra.1 3
n v o I v cun e n t
22
I) o c a u s it It re.t. 1.1. y w asout
of: our ho. nils, W It e n y o u
2 3 t a 3 ); a b o u l:" e n v 3 r o n in c: r I. , " t h a t. ' a b e y o n d M o n a n It o ' s
2 4 d i. r e c I; c o it It r o 1 .
2 b p ,, Wo 3 3 , .1 e 3. m o - --
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1 4 . Who. I: 1 d i. d Is 1' hr i.d -- I kept up on the 2 ] i t o:ra t.u r e of what wa a taking place on the 3 e n v i. r (5 n m e n f. a. I 1 n a u rs , n Q. 1, e t. me. oak you a. I. i t t. I o hat. ah) cmt that. b Mow, people can beexpo nod t o a chemical in a nuHtbet; 6 o f d .i f f e r o', n t. w a y ; 1 ss t hi a t c, a r r a c t. ? 7 A. Yen. B () . And one wa y wo; c.a n a 3 a js c .1 f y t.hi e d 5 f f er en t. 9 w a y ;5 i. n w h i. e hi p 0* o p 1 e a r e e x p o n (5 d i. b y e 1. o. :? i. k y i. n g 3 0 w hi o-i t. hi r t hi e y c o in e; i n 1. o c o n t. a c. t. w .11 hi j t a t w o r k , b y I. L w h i. e h w os ' d ko. 1. k a l) o u k. o c e u p a t i. o ti a 1 nxposu i: e 3 3 A . Yen . 3 3 Q > -- o r w hi e t hi e r t hi e y c. o hi a i n t o c o n t a c t ' w 1 t hi l 4 L k o u k a 1 d 05 o f: the work c on text, which i. n whak we :i r> u ,r; n a '1 .1 y t. a ] k a hi o u t a.e n viro n in o n t. a 1 e x po j; u 5-e , I. <s e o r r e e k? :i 7 A . Yen, t! i r , 1 B Q A n d 'k. hi e a n p e e t 0 1 t h o-i P C. 11 t o x 1 0 i t. y p r 0 J:> 1 e i. 9 h. h a 1, you kept. u p w 1 k h , o k h (5 r k. h a n t Ii <5 i. r <0. b i. t 1 1; y k 0 ?.o c. a u i! e c a n c e r , doa.lt. with) O n V 1 V O T) HI 6) T11 a 1 O X P 0 ! U T 05 , 3. 1 e o r r (0 e k? 3 2 A . Y o> ;i . 2 3 . Y o vi d 1 cl n o t k o* o p up with or do any review 2 4 o f: k h (i a b i. 1. i. 1; v/ o I: P C B ' h 1; o c a use k o x i. e i. t y p v o b 1. (5 m a 2 !"> 0) t. hi e r t hi a r> <*. a n c. e r , 1 n p e o p .1 e wh o w e r e o e c \i j> a t a o n a 1
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b2
). e x p o i? o. d ; i. t h a. I; c o r r > c 1: ?
2 A, .13; vo a .1 1 y 3) a;; to do w i t. 3) : When X c awe to
M o n j? a nI; o ,w a n t li e v e ~ - d i. <3 w e It a, v e a p rob L e m l it o u r
4 plat) is :i"e ] a tc;d 1.o th i a V And we <1 ;i d not.
b Q - B o , y o u r e -.5 o 3. v e d a. n y P r o b 1. o m a o I;
d o e e ti p itt i o n a .1 e x p oti r e j u n t b y c o n c 3 u d i n g t ft e r e w e r e
7 no problems lit your own plant?
fl A. And there was no evidence that problems
9 w e r o b <t i. it g -- i. I: a p r o b I ta m It a d a r i. a o n r tt 1. a I; e d t o
1 (I some toxicity problem, then 1 would have been
I. I. i. n v o 1 v o d . H u 1: t It e operation was a. L v e a d y g o i n g , It a d
1 7 been going f o r m a n y y o. it r s; , it ti c'l w it s w o r 3< i n g
1.3 s m o o t h 1. y . A n d. t ha t w a.:? n ' 1; ct n o o l; m y h 1 g It - p r 3. o r i. t y
1 4 p r o b .3 em a .
3 F> Q . You j n a t a ; s u m e d ,, t; i n c e n o b o d y e it m e 1. o y o u
I. 6 w 1 I; h a p v o b 1 e m o l; o c c u p a. I; i. o n a I t; o x 1 e i. I; y o I; P C H ' s a t
3 7 Monsanto, there wan no need f or you to put that on
ta the l i. s I: of 1: h i n g to worry about?
19 A , A n d w e It a d i n d u s t r i. a 3 hyp i. e n i s t s w It ow e r e
2 0 L n v e s I; i. g a 11. n g a it d w t-t It a d a p It y :s I. c i. a n w Ito w o u 1 d v i.i I:
2 3 t h e p 1a n I; r e g o 1 a r 1 y a n d n o t h i n g It a. d c o me 1. o m y
2 2 a. t I; e n i;i. on a. n o m e t h i. n g t It a fc v e q u i. r e d a t I; e n I; i o n .
22
Q.
N o w , 1 e l. m o g o b a c l< , t3t e n , it n d , w i 13) 1. h ;t t
2 4 It a. c k gr o it n d , a a lc y o u a I. i. I; I; I. e It 1 I; a l) o u I; I; h <-t - - n o ,
2 a you may need to hold 1.3)a 1. . 1 want to ask you some
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I. q uo :s I1, t o n ;? h ha 1. r a I. a h o 1. o I; ha (: . L e I; m e a s !< y o u a. b o u I; 2 1 h ft t. o x 3 ft ,i t y p :r o b .1 ft in w :i 1. h l'1 Cl I ' s 3 Dr, W c i. q h I; got I; ho I 9 7 n award has ft d in 4 part on his: work with thft PCM 1. o x .1 c 3 1. y problem; b i s n ' I; t h a t c o r r o c 1, ? f> A . 7 ft s , 7 Q And -- 8 A . T ' m Ti 01 c; u r e t. h a t. w a s r ci 1 a t p. d l. 0 10 x 3 c. 3 t. y 9 pr0 b 1 0m0 1 0 0. 1 1 O ft. . W h a 1. d 0 y 0 u t h 3 n )< 3 t. w a : r ft 1 a l. ft d L L 10 ? 3 2 A . 11 w a fi r e 1 a t. e d 10 t. h e pres eric: ft and amount 13 0 f: i. t i n d i. :3 c h .1 r g e , 3 4 Q. 1 H ft ft . W ft J 1 r w b a t. - 1 3 A . I h w a :3 n q u ..1 n 1: i. t a 1: i. v e p r 0 l) 1 a m r a t: h e r t ti a n 1 6 1. 0 x 3 ft 3 1. y proti 1 ftifi I 7 Q W ft 1 1 , ti 0 w , w h a t. w a Dr . W r 3 g it t ' s t. 3 1.1 ft a h I. 8 M o n i? a n t, o ? 3 9 A . T o x 1 <:: o 1 o g y m a n a cj e r . 2(1 () , And h i. ;3 j o b d e a 1 f: w 1 1, h 1: h e h o x i ft o I. o g y o f. 2 3 c. hi c in 1 ft a In, d 3 d 3 t. ti o t ? 2 2 A. Huh e v o r y I; h i n g we do i. h r el.abed ho a. dose. 2 3 And, no, no 111a 11 o r what -- w lie), her- 3 1. ' a In the 2 4 environment: or whether i. I: ' s in occupa I: i 011.11 or in 2.9 o u r j> r o d vi e t. s , i t. :i i r o .1 a t e d t. o 1. h e cl o s e .
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Q. A. n (3
2 A. And t 3) 3 s ....... in 3. he cm v 3 r o ri men t, 3 3. was how
2 much is thnre ,
4 Q. Dr. Wright got. this a war d b o c. a u s e. 3) e 3ie3ped
5 I; o convince I; h e HP A h ha t I; h e doses t ha I; were present.
6 3 n I: h e en v 3 :r o n m c; n 3. w o u 3 d n o t. c a u <; e. --
7 A . Co n c e n t ra h i. ons, n o I: do :s e s .
a () . Okay. W e .'!. 3 , d o en ' t. -- w 3) e. i> w e t a 3 k a 3) o u t
9 " d o s e , " w a ' r e I: a ). k i n g a b o u h the s i. x o o r
3 0 c: o n c. e n 3. r a 3.3. o n o f t. 3> e. a m o \i n t, a r e n ' t w e ?
I. 1
A. Yes,
but dose for whom when we
talking
3 7. a b o u t. b e 3 n g 3 n 13i e e. n v 3 r o n in e n t. ?
13
Q . 'I.1 h ep e r o n w h o i sj o x p o s e d t (5
i. I: 3. n t h e
3 4 e ri v 3 r on m e n 3. .
3 b A . Well, 3 f we' :r e 3. a .1 k 3. n g a 3) o u t. d 3 :i c h a r g e --
1 6 a n d I; h 1 s o no, i: t h i. n k i. I: w as re 1. rated 1;c3 d i. nch.3 rge -
3 7 3 f w e d 3 s; c: h a r g e V 0 }s 1 c; 3 n 3. o 3.3i e r 3 v e r o r 3 n t o 3.3i e.
I.B onvi. r onme n t sou e p L ae o, n o w , w h e 1: h e r that cherts to be
3 9 a d o !! e t o in a n 3 s 13i e - - 3 s t. 3i e g \i e s t 3 o n .
2 0 Q , Well, T)r. lion ti h , i. nn ' t i. 1: a fact t h a t o n e 2\ o f 3.3i e 3> 3 g problems 3 Ti 13i a o v e r a 1 3 P V. H 3. c> x 3 c 3 t y
2 2 p r o b l co m w .3 1: h .3 1: !? C R ' s w e r e g e t 3. L n g d i. s c It r g e d i. n 1: o
2 2 t.lie env i :r o n in e n 3. , 3.3i o. y w o r e C| o 11 3 nq 3 Ti to 3.3ie food
2 4 c ti a. In, and peopJ. e were O .3 t ini] them?
?.b A . Y e fi .
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Q , And that was a do iso?
?. A . Ye ,
3 Q. A ml what ])r , Wright got h if: award for, in
4 pa r t, w a s c o n vi. n o i. n g I: h e F e d o r a l. G o v o v n m c; n t I: h a I: t h o
amount or done of PCll 1
that people wore getting .in
G t h o o n v i. v o n m e nI: w o u I. d n ' t h u v t t h e p o to p 1 e ?
7 A . No, 4. h a 1: ' a n o 1: 3 t a 4. a J .1 .
8 Q, I see. Hoi 1. , why don' I: you explain to me 9 w h a t 5 4. w a n , t h e n , 4. h a t y o u b e 1 :i eve J)r . W r :i. g h t g o 4.
l 0 hi:? award for?
] I A . ).;le :i Tig e n v 1 r onm en t a .1 i:o x i c o ] o g i :: l. r , we
1.2 understand what iL:? the :?our<c e d o f t It e c h e m i. c a 1. i n
1 3 t. h e c-: n v ,i r o n m e n t; a n d t h a 1;. ' c one of o u t c o n o e rn a .
t 4 A n d , s o , w h a. t h e w a. p , in- - i:? t o e x p 1. a i. n t o 1: It e in
1 8 a n d h e 1 p t h e. in 4: o u n d o :r j? t. a n d. w h a 4. 1 evel of J' C. H ' s
1. 6 found, and being < 4 i. :? o h r g ed i. n 4. It e e n v 1 r o n m e n 1: a. s
3 7 compared to the - - how much 1. h ere if? in 1. he
1.8 e n v i v to n in e n t .
J 9 8o , th i p. 3"ea 1 .1 y wa n ta 1 k 1 a g , no4.
2 0 toxicology, but in the pi. x e of: the dose or the a m o u n 4. 4. h a 4. O b e. ;i n g d 1in charged .i n t o 4. he environ in e n 4.
?. 2 and wap i, 1; a. r e <x 1. ii. :? 1: i. c : amount and w.:a. s - whan 1: It ey
2 3 fi a y , "Wo 1 re y o i n q 4. O ! : a y w e w a n 1. 4. o g o t o x e ro, " h e 2 4 w o u 4 d e x p 1. cT. i. n to 1 : h it in t h a t y o u e a n ' 1: <j o 4: o x e r o .
2 8 Q . A n d 15 i .1 m a k e :i l. ?
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J. A . W e 1. 1. , y o u c a n ' 1: g o t o X e V o , N o, n o , i: > 2 .1 t - t h e r o ' a 1. h a 1 . - - 13i a t c. o ti t a in .i n a t A on A s t h c-; - 3 t h tv i. n If 1. tl X o 1: PCI) '" i n 1; o o u r p 1 a n 1'. 1: r o m w a. 1; o r would 4 b o. h :i g h e r l. h a n w o 1 re per in A t1 e d t 0 P 'I i- O VI t H o , 5 t h r o ' J? a. ...._ w h a t h o b r o u g h 1: WO. S r e a 1 ,i. S ill j. n t <2 r m S 0 1 6 the -- of the .levels of discharge, 7 Q . Wo I L , lo I: ... . I. o t; me s e e i. f; we oa. n ' t 8 vi Ti d e r a t a n d t. h :i a' p r o b .1 e in . T he Gove r n in e n t w a a 9 proposing discharge criteria that would hove ] 0 r e q \i i r e d M o n .a a n t. o a n d the c. u a t o in e r a t. o who m A t a o 3 d. l 1 P C R ' s t o s t o p u a i n g t h o m ; i.:? n ' t t h a t o o r r e c. 1; ? 3 2 M R , P H U }: W WM.D: .1 - - I ' .1 .1 o b j e o 1'. t o I. 3 h h e q u e s t i o n , T d o n ' t k n o w t h o r e ' a a n y o v i d o n c, e 1 4 t h a t t h a t. w a a , in f a o t., w h a t. w a a g o ft n g o n . And J -- I. 5 Q . (R y M r , b a c e y ) W cv 1 1. , I. e i,'s r e a d I: Iv e 3. 6 d o c. mil e n f, then, .if Die re1 a a prob] e in. If you1 3.1 go L 7 1; o the in i. dd 1. e o l; t h o. 3 e c o ini p a r a, g r a p h and read w i t h 3 B in e , doe i; n ' 1. A t b y , " T n t h e former in s t a n o. e " ..... a n d I. 9 1. h a t ' s t a. 1. k i.ng a b o u 1, t: h e 1? C R ' s , i s n ' 1: i ? 2 0 A . y e f! . 2 :i 0.. "J n the former A n i; 1.an ce h A s; e x c. e 1 .1 e n i. 3 3 a n a 1. y i s a n d s y n t h e s i s o 1: w i.de 1. y sou. 1; 1; (2 r o d 2 3 o b ,<! 12 r v a t. A o n ;.i p 1 a y e d a p;r o m A n e n t r o 1 e An forefital 3 A 2 4 R 1:' A ' s p r o m u 1. g.V 1. i o n o f: R 0 A ' s p t: o p o s o d. r (2 g u 1. a t A o n s 2!) won.Id have pre. c .1 u d o d t h e u a e. o f t h e a e in a t. e t A a 3 h
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1 M o u a a n I; o ' s c u a I: o m e r a . 2 1 ?; ri ' t t it a t w licit i. h e a w a r d w a a a 1 1 3 a b o u. t ? f\ A . Y c: a , ;> Q * T li e ): P A proponed to put into place 6 r o g u 1. a. t; i.on a l i. m i. t; i. n g t h e a in o mi I:. o f! P 0 R ' s t h a. 1; o o u 1. d 7 b e d ,i s o h a t g o d 7 w h i oh M o ri fi a n to and its c u i t o hi e r s 8 c o u 1. d n o t have me i:, correct? 9 A . !f <1 o n ' t. t h i n k !i o . l 0 Q . W e 1. ). , 1 o t - 1 .1 A . 7 think i t. w o u 1 d h a v e b o e n .... w h a t h e ' s 1 3 s a y i- n 9 ... -. I! L h i n k 1: h o r e gu 1. a t i o n a we r o s o J 3 u n r c a .1 .1 ! t .1. c: t ii a t. we wou .1. d ha v e had t o s h u t. down the U 0 n i. t. e d S t a. t e a b e c a a a e w e c o u 1. d n ' t h a. v e g o t; 1; e n t o
t h a 1'. p J a c. o . J fi Q . W e .1 1 , 1 e t me ..... let me stop fox' j u t a I. 7 in o men t The real. i. spue that Monsanto was c o n c o r n c d i n a b o u t w a ji who t. h (-> r o r rt o 1:. t. h e d i a c. h a r g e 1 i m i t ) wo \1 1 d 1.9 k e e p M o n a a. n t o f: r o m o o n I; inn j. n g t o o p e r a t c i. I; a p 1 a n t 2 0 to produce: PC! it ' j: andwhether the discharge .1 i in ,i t. a 2 1 w o u 1. d p v o h i. b i. 1: c u a t: o m e r s o i: M o n a a n r. o t r o m a o n t i. n u i n g 3 3 to buy P C!)l 1 ,s to u .<! e .in t heir plant, a; i it ri * t hi) at. 3 3 c o r r e c I; ? 2 4 A . 'I' h a t ' r; a ..... t h a t 1 .<s a n a f t e r t h o u g 1) 1., a n 3 5 a. t: I; e r ina L h i n I; e r m s (31: w h a. I; t h i. s a u b j e c I; i s .
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I. Q < We 1.1 , I: Ik o n 1. y .... 1; h (3 on 1 y 1: h ing 1; h a t ' s 2 in e n 1.:i o n o d. n t h i s m e in o w i t. h T- e g a r d t. o t h e r. o n c <* ;r n 3 t h a 1: M o n;? a n t o had W .1 s t h a t 1 h e p v o t? os e d r s i g u 1. a 1; i. o n s <1 w o u .1 8 p r c. c. I \i d r: 1 h e w n e o 1' t. h es e in a t. e r i a .1 s b y 5 M o n s a. n I: o ' s o u s I: o in o r s ; 1 s n ' t I; h a t; c o r r e o 1; ? 6 A . No , The - one .i s the nrirea.l i s t i e 7 rngulat Ions . The necondary o C 1:ec t i s i. t would have 8 done that, but. that, wasn't what, wan -- what, the 9 s ub j fii: t was . 1 0 Q . I see. The -... the fact that, these . 1 1 u n r e a J. 1 s t 1 c r e g ti I. a I; 1, o ns w o u I d h a v a c a. u s o, d M o n s a n l; o 1 2 t. o .1 o s e t h .i s in a r )< e. i . w a a just a na f t. e r t. h o u g h t. ? I 3 A. , We w e r e g o 1 n g o lit of: the business in 1976 ] A We w e t e 'n ' t. g o i n g t. o in a k e t h e hi a n y m o r e . W e a 1 r e a d y I. 8 h a d d e e i. d e d WO WlH'fill ' 1: g o i ri g to make them in 1.9 76. :i 6 T s e e . t. 7 A . i: t had no bearing on i 1:.. 1 8 Q t s ee . And t h e r e -- a n d , a o , t h e r e w a a n ' 1.9 a ny In 1:c v e s t on Mens a n t: o ' s p a ft in continuing to 2 0 in a k e. t h e s a 1 e u ti 11 .1 y o u a c t n a 1 ] y s t o p p e d p r o d u c t :i 7. I i n 1 9 7 6 V 2 2 A . 11. w a STi' t - - w e w e :r e. doing .it lor the 2 3 c o n v e n i. o n o e o 1: our r. 11. s 1: o in e r s b o e a u s e 1:. h o y d i. d n ' 1: 2 4 h a v e a s u b s t. :i t. u t. e . 2 !> Q . 1 si o e , A n d , s o , 1. h 1 s a w a r d b a a i c a .1 .1 y w a ss
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boo. anno r , Wright wont: 1'. o tho p -- t he K i.' A on b c h a J f of! your cmih t.oinert: f or their convenience --
A , IM o , 0. ..... .is that c: orrer.l,? A. Wo, ): I; i. s -- i. t * s -- we worn -- we wort; ft ei 7 i v .i r o n hi e n 1. a i 5 y .... w e h a d a n e n v i ;r o n in e n t a 1 p r o Id ] e in 7 w L l: h l? C H ' s . A n d. o u r k n <7 w 1. o d. q e a mi u n d <3 t: s band 1 n g o 1; fl i t wa si br ou gh t t. o t.h e KPA . Th a t ;i n f: 1 u en c ad th e. i :r 9 p u. I; I; i. n q <3 u t u n r o a I. i.s t i e r o g u 1. a t i. o ns II o r t h e m s q I. v o s .
:i o A i'i d t. h j s; eni. e n c a t. h a t g o e s f o 3 .1 o w i n g i, i. that, that LI; won!, d i i. m i. I; out; o u s I: o m e v s , wan really J 2 an -- it wancorrect, but. it reai.iy wasn't of great, 1, :3 oomniqiionco bo cause wo were going out o IT I; he J 4 b u f i n e s sin ' 7 ft , 1 5 Q . Wei 1 , in fa o t., .i t ' s a .'I i i n o n e s e n t e n c c ,
I. ft i. s n ' I: i t ? J 7 A . y O. S', , Vo H , i n Q . '.( t * 5 not a sent. one. e that f o .1 J o w s ; i t ' s a 1 J 1.9 1 n o n (7 s o n 1; o n o o ? 2 0 A . Wo .'I .i , la u t i t 1 i a -- i t ' n a - - 5 t * i a -- 2 1. i. t ' s a 1. 1 ..... ill's a n o t; li o i; thought. 2 it Q A n o t h o r t ti o u g h l 1. h a t ti a si T. <) d o w i t b 7 3 Mon s a n 1; o ' :? o u s !; o m e r s a n d s o 1. J. i. n g 1; h o p r o d u o 1; ? 7 A A , I ' hi -.... a .1 1 T ' in s a y i n g i s : W o a i r e a d y h a d 7 5 d e c j. d o d t o q o o u t o f; h h o b u s i n o :? , a. nd i.l; t: o a 11 y li a. d
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:i o Q . -- the .1 e v e .1 s 1.3i a 1. w o n 1 d h a :r m 3) u m a n h e a 113i 1 t A . 'l h e r e w a a n o e v i. d o n c (5 t h a 1; 1 h e 1 e v e 1 a h h a 1; 3 2 wore being -- pul. (..in g Into 13i e rivers was creating a 13 health problem, 1 4 Q . T3> a t * s e :< a c l. .1 y 1.3) o p o i n t . May 1) e I d 5 d n ' t l. 5 ask my que-.i 1 i.on very well. The reason that Monsanto I 6 w a n t e d t o f o r e s 3. a 1 1 13) e s 1. r i c. t e r r c g u .'I a 1. .i O 1) s 1.7 proposed by hh e K A W <1 :3 b o e a. u e 1 1. w o u 1. d s h u 1: d o vi n .1 8 t h o i r produ c. t i on and bee a u s o M o rt a a n 1'. o b e 1 i evert 13i a 1'. 1.9 the e u r r e n 1: 1 e vt) 1:; ol: d 1 a c h a. v g e t h .3.1; w e r e t li e n 3 0 perm i tt ed d i c'in ' t 3\ u r t b u m a ;> 3) e a .1 1. h ; i n ' t 13) a t 2 I. e o r v e c 1. ? 2 2 A . No, H i r . T 3) 1 s 3i a d not fling t o d o w i t h o u r 3 3 b u a i n <i s s v o n I: u c o i n P (3 8 ! s , 2 4 Q . d u !i ta g r a 1. u i to u s c o m in e n t t 3) a t 13) e s e 2 8 r n g u I. ,i t: Ion aw o u I. d h a ve p r e c I. u d n d I; h e u. e o 1 11) e
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1. p o r h o n a. 1 v I. o w p o i. n h . r*). 0. Di d y u h a vo a n y p r o f e h u i o n a .i i n t. c r e a t. i n 3 I\. 1-, 9' <1 A . :i cl i d n ' 1. e v o n k n o w w h a t I. b e h u b j ' <' 1 w a a t o R b e a b 1. o t, o h a.v e a p c o f e s s i o n a 1 i. n 1: e. r e s 1'. . 6 0. W e .1 ;i. / d .1 d y o u - - d i d y o u k n o w t. b a 1. M o n s a n t o 7 Ii a d h a. d a 1 o n g , o x 1; e n u i v e r e. I. a t i. ons h i. p w -i. t h i: R T ? H A . Y<-!, 1. b e y s u r e d ,i d . 9 Q Tb oy ' d 1; e t e d a .1. o t o .f: c li e m i c a l s ? .1 0 A . Y e h , i t. d i d . I. I. Q An d d i. d you understand that the e h a. r g e. s .1 7. that we:r o b e ,i T>CJ in a d <'. a g a ;i nst Paul W r i g b t. a n d o t. b e r 1.3 i: R T e m p 1 o y mi i? we r a 1: h a t t h e y h a. d f: a 1 :> 1. f i. ed s tud i. es ? J <1 A . Ye f> . 1 !) Q. Including ntudies done for Momuuito? 1. 6 A . V o s , 1 7 Q. Didn't. that cinisc you to have a L 8 p v o f; s s L o n a. 1. i. n I: e r s t o n b o h a i f: o e M o n s a. n fc o a. b o u. I:. 1 9 w b o t li o r o r n o t t, h e o t. u d i e,`i that IHT b a d d o'n l o r 3 0 M (5 n s a. n t o we re a e c u r a t e or inaccuratei ? 2 1 A . Y e. fs ,, 2 2 Q . A n d a in o t> g t b e ti t n d i e a 1. b a t 1 H T bad done f o r 7.3 M o n t? a n 1: o we r(; s 1:. ud i, eu o I: OCR's? 3.-1 A . Yea . 2!) Q. Tb o s; o prod u e t u w h e r e t h e. r e wa :i a quo n t i on
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1. o r .3. p r o b I o, m w i. b h I; h o i t; I: o ;< i. o i. I', y I: o h u m a n , c o r r o c. b'? 2 A . V 0! a . 3 0. b A 4 !) 1 1 t.h o i n 4 A r I <n <; n t r a r> d t h p t o cj r ft r;;? o f 4 b li o p r o s o u b i. o n o f: t h a. I; r, r 1 in 4 n a I. r, a:? c o a. u e y o u I; o
h a v o a p r o f e a A o n a .1 A n i. o r c; ?.* t. w A 1. h r e g a r d t o t h o a v a. L i. d ). I: y o C t h c I:. u d i. o .s d o n e b y 1' B '1.' f: o r M o n ,s a n I: o i a bo u I. p c: H ' <; ? o A . Y ft a , bu t1 d A dii ' t r e. 3 a t et. h ein a a w h ft ti y o \i 9 a a y " p r o f eh a 1o na L , " :i o Q . '( s ft ft. Von a r e a w arc ,a r e yo u n o t, of t h e i. ,i f: a r. t bha. t b h e o n I. y o It ron i. c b o x L <: i. b y a I: u d 1 o do n e f: o r :i 2. M o a .<? a n l. o w A t.h r e q a r d t o P(!1! ' a were a .1 .1 d or> e byI B T , i. 3 .>. r en ' t: y o u. ? 1 4 A . Y ft k . j s 0. So 1. hat. I. bo only a o xi r c ft of data that. i. M to n ,i n h o h a. d o v so r dev o 1. o p o d w i. b. h r o. g a r d h o I: h o :i 7 c. b r o n A o. 1. ox A c. A by o f V C)! ' a r ft .1 a t o c1. t. o t. b v a J A d A b y r> in b h e wo r Ic do no f: o r i. 1 b y I! B 'I1 ? 19 A . Y o a . 2 o Q G A v o n t h a t. f a ft t, w a. t; n ' t A t a jri a t. t. (-1 r of 2 t C O It o c r n t o y o 11 vl b o u 1: w It e b h (t r l B T r a. n a. 1 a. b b. h a i: w a h 2 2 a o o ti ra to or wb e d. h ft r tb w a ! a 1 a la t bat f a 1 s A f A ed A t. H 2 3 d a. t a. ? 2 4 A . Y f. h , 2ft Q . An d a r, a r a u .1 t. o f t. h e c: r A m A n a 1
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O O 11 V i. c t i o n n , d l cl y o u r o a o h 1; h o c o n c 1. u i o n t li a t i: R T ?. h a d b e co n shown to bo a .1 a b t h a t f a 3 a :i f :i o d d a t a ? 3 A . Ag a i. n , I d i. d n ' t l< n o w w li a 1; 1, li e to co u u 1. t n o r A 1. h a t. i . r :i a 1 wa ` * * f> Q Y o u n o v o :r )< now that, ban 3 Wright w a ;i 6 c O 11 V i. c h e d ? 7 A . Oh , y o <; , 1 )< n o w 3i o w a v> c, o n v j c. t e d ; b n t :r 8 w a. n n ' t :? u to e o f: t h e j3 u ti n t a n e e o 1? w li a h - - w li a 1; t h a 1; -- 9 w h a 1. 1'. >1 CO y h a d r o a 1 3 y f o mi d . I. 0 0. , Y o u d i dn ' I: f: o 1. 1. o w i. t c 1. o n e 1. y o n o 11 (J li t o k n o w J J wtii.i I. t h e a J II co c) a t. .i o n j.* a g a :i n v, t i) t T w e r co ? I. ?. A. . Yen, but i: w,i:ni' I; 'sure what that meant', i. n :i 3 t. e r in s or w h a 1. w a s t a k 3 n g p 3 a o o , I. 4 Q . Well., d i. d y o u u n d o r s tan d i. I: m e a n t I: h a t: t h e y 1 9 h a d n ' i b co e n r n n n :i n q t e s t s o or r e c. 11 y ? I. 9 A , l' k ne w toh a t, wa. n I', hea !. 1. ega t i, on , b u I; J'. ' m no I: J 7 n r o w h at. 1.3) o n 3) :i tanco o f t. 3i a t in e a -n l. - - w a si 1.8 Q . Wo 1. 1. , w, a i. h n u 1: 1: i. e i. e n t O V o 1: i. n t co 10 CO M t k o J 9 y o n t h a 1. tfio r e w a f; a n a 3 3 o g a 4.3 o n 1.3i a t t. 3i e 1. e ! t. c* 2 0 h a. d n ' t t> e co n to u. n o o to to e o 1; 1. y .a n d a j11 ry c o n v i a i: e d 2 :i M r . W T .1 cj 3i t o f 3) o 3 7i g 3 n v o 3 v ocl 3 n 13i a 1. i c 3i e If! O ? 3 3 A . Y CO M 3 3 0 A n d }< n o w 3 n g 1 li a t , an d n o in o r a 13i a n 1.3i ci l- f 3 4 d. i d n ' t t, h <i. L a a u n co y o u l. o h a v co n o m e ;? e r i. o u S (1 o u b 3. :3
?.!'> a bon t 1.3i e v a 1.3 d i toy o f a f i y i to u d y 1. 3i a t :nT d i d f a t
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L M o ti;? <i n b o ? 9 ft . Y O f! .
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n A. . D r , M u n c h ?
9 Q . Yen, Dr , Mmirti , Do you know Dr. Ka.lph
1. 0 M u n o h ?
] :i ft . T k n o w 3i e worked for u :i a very stiort t. :i hi e.
i ?.
Q-
Dr. Munch worked for you
very short t i, mo?
5 3 ft . T 3i o only D r , M u n c h T k 'n o w ;i ,fi a m a n w 3i o
L 4 w o r k e d I: o r u s o n e h u m m e r . I d o n ' t know a ny of la e r
.1 9 Dr-. Munch 3 e. Q . You ' r o 1. a j k i n g a b o u t Dr-. Mu u o 3i , a r e n 1 t. y o u V
1. 7 A . Ytvs , i: 1'. h i. if k u o , 'f la n b ' s r i. g h 1: ,
3 8 :i ' hi a r. k 3 n g a b o u 1. d .1 a; t. :i n q u ,i r; h (a d c. .1 e n 1 i <i t. 1 9 I: o r Monna n ho Dr. Ua 1 p h M u n o h ,
2.0 ft . No, 1 don' t k n o w a n y t. 3i a n g aboil t. --
2 L Q Y o u don' I: know Dr. Munch?
22 A . No .
2 3 {) . T S e (a . W e. .1 1 , would you agree w.a b 3i h 3 h
2 4 c h a. r n. c I: v i. y, a, 1; i. o ii of: f R 'i.1 1 s con i.3. u c, t, a s d e 1 i. b o, t: a b it
2 5 f ra n d ?
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MR . FRrjKHW/U.D : Rook, I'm going I; o 2 ob'jeet to the g n e s t. j o n right, now arid because -- 3 u n I. e u s you've go I: i. h o i. r a n s o r i. p 1: horn, I -- youp 4 <: h a r a o t o r i /. a I . i o n s o f w h a t h e w a v h a v o a a i d a n d - B why don' I: you j uu i. auk i. ho quest ion who!: hoi: ho h thinks ,it ' :> true or I' a ] s o, rather than whether he 7 a. g r e e s w i.I: h s o in e b o d. y e I. s e ' s c h a r a c t o r i x a t i o n ? B B u l: I -- T ' v e n o t ti o t u a e. n t. h e 9 d o p o s i t i.on. (!e ' s n oh. Y o u r c. h a t; a. c t o t: i. >: a. h i o n s J 0 s o in e t 1 in e n h a v e a 1 S i. t. .1 e b 1 t. o f a d v o c a o y i n t. h e m , a n d
I -- wo can avoid, that, I think, by j u :s I: asking the :i 3 q u e ci 1: :i o n s t r a .i. g h 1. '* .1 3 M X . LACKY; Why don ' t w c: j u s t t a k e a 1.4 r o c s :? a n d. 1. o t m o q o g e 1: D r . Mu n o h ' n 1; r a n u r, r i p t a. n d 1 B w e ' .1 ] - 1 6 MX . }' R 11 !: )i W A h T) : W o 1.1 , what, d o e s 1. 7 d i. I: l: e v o n o o d ci e S i t make what Dr. Mun o h ;? a i d. ? 'I1 h i. u 1 8 w 1 i. n e s s: :i s g o i n g t o g i v e h 1 s o p :i n i ons whet: her ho ~ 1. 9 Dr. Mu ii oh u a i. d :i. h o r n o 1: . f> o / why d. o n ' I: y o u a :? k h i. m 2 0 i.hat. ral.her t h a n f oo .1 i ng a roe rid w i th what somebody 2 1. o 1. u e s a i d 7 2 2 Q (h y M r . ha r. ey ) W e .1 1 / :i f' t m e a s k y o u 2 3 p o i n t - 1> 1. a n k W o u id you agree t ha. t 1 HT ' s conduct 3.4 w :i t h r e g a r d t o S t. h studios wa. s d o .1 5 ii e :r a t. e f r a u d ? 2.8 A . I d o n ' 1: know enough t o a. n ;> w o r tho 1:
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I. q u e s I: i. o n .
2 o.. 1 s ( '. e . 3 A ,, 1 do know .. . ... 'i know vi fiat t. o X i c o 2 o q y
4 l.,)boi.'d
do and T know whal:. q u a i. i. I', y in ami. X
b know w h a i. d i f f e ;r e n I. .1 a b o r a t o r i e s d o . A n d , so, l. h e*
<S :5 u b I: a. n e e o (: i. h e 1 r d. i. I: I: e r e n o e f: v o m <31 h e v
7 11 abora tor:ies , r>a ono w.i .111 know, bca\ir.e 5 i 5 sn ' 1 a s
B c 1 e a r - c u t . A. n d t (3 qo f! u r t h e r i s : T h e s t u d i e s t h a t
9 w e t r i e d t o f o .1 1 ow up a 7) d w e fi a d redone; have 1 0 c. o n f: i. r in e d w h a 1: h h e Y f- o l d us w a s c o r r o c. i. . J :) B o , t b e. d e f. a i .1 s a n d h o w t h ey didt. b a i :r
1. >. s I: u d y, I! h a v e n ' t i. h e s i. 1 g h t o s i. t d o a , M .1. I ' in :s a y i. n q
.1 3 is weredid some of t.be; studies that.111T did. And
l 4 i; o v pr a. c. t i. o a 1. p u r p o s ns , w a r. a m o 1: o t h e a am o p o s 1. 1:1. o n
J b as ]HT bad done.
1 h {) . 1) i d y o u e. v e r r e; d o - - r e ii o a s i n ej .1 e s t \i d y
!. 7 r o I. a 1: i. n g i. o P C H ?
1 B A ., T h i s w a s a f t or w e w e; r e o u l. o f t. ft e b u s .i n e
1.9 Q . 'P h a 1; ' s n o 1*. m y q u o s t i. o n .
7.0 A .. i nmlerstand . No, s .i r ,
?. I <) . M a k e i. t - ~ 1 e t m o in a. k (3 y c3 u a. v o r y c 1. n .a r
3 3 cj u o s t i on . J)ic1 you o v e r T e d o a ii .i n g 1 e study on
3 3 PCB ' s ?
?A A . No, s .i :r .
?. 3 Q. Bo, you have no way of knowing whether the*
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I con cl. ti o I; o I: X I1T w 1. I: h r o q a. r d I: o I', h o h a n d 1 i n g o f: 0 C B
2 j! in (1 i si :r a a u J t o cl .1 n it ct c: u r a t. e or 1 ti a c r. u r a t e d it 1.a it nd
3 a o o u r a I; e o r i. n a o c uc a b o o o n o I. u s? i. o n u - -
4 A . No, S-: :i 'i ,
5 Q . - i si I; It a b e o r r e o I: ?
6 A . No, s: .i ,,
7 f) . I) o w d o y o it )< n o w t. h a t t ft e i r d ft t. a w a si
B a. o e u r a b <5 1.1: you n o v o r re d i d a ;? b u d y ?
9 A . W e h ;t d -... o t h cs r s t. u d .1 e s h a v e b es e ri d o ti e o ti
I. 0
P0R ' s ,
I! m o .1 n , w e d 1 d n ' I: , o b It o r s b u d i e sx w o t: o
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i. 3 I: It a t w'e r e jtu I; o rt I: o s t s w e x; q :? u b s t a. n t i a J. I y t h e s a in e
1 3 as others had found, which said that, the .studies
14 w oc e b o i n g d o n e a <t e q u a. t e I. y enough s o w e o a n c o m p a v e
J b t he iri .i n n a y 1 rt g t ft o y w e r e q u i i. e s: 1 in 1 .1a r .
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j "/ a ,t7 it e. t.t h a t Dr .K 1 m hr on y h ' s: s t u d j e s; vi i t h t ft e e f f o o t
IB o 1; Aro c lor L 2 fi 0 on rutsJ si bowed they r: a u s o d ti. vet:
1 9 cancer and I )! T ' ss teat of a -- the same batch of
3 0 A roc for 1.2 BO on rails? coiic.l, udod bhey did nob cause
?. 1 .1 1 v e r c. a rt r, e r ?
2 3 A . What. -- what: 1 rs the question? Will you
2 3 t: o p o a h b h a. I: q u o ;? t; i. o n ?
2 4 Q . 1 f! ti ' t. I 1. a f a c. b ..
2!i A . Yo :s , st 1. r .
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Q. ..... that Dr. Kimbrough |)e rfornifid chron A c
1 ox ,i r. i 1.'/ <! !. u (1 i (; an.'i i 11 q
!i roi: ! nr 1 3 8 0 from M . > ria n I. o
3 a. n d f: o u n d i. h aI;. i. i,o a u u c d I. i. v o v c a n o or A n r a I; n ?
-5 A . 'J'h o t. ' v, wh a 1. j; h e if a :i d .
F5 Q, And i. n n 1 i, t. h a bat:!:. I', ha. b. nd'l.' used A roc l or
f, 1 3. 6 0 f r o m 1. h o r, a in v. b a t o h a ;; 1) r . K i in b r o u g h -
7 A . Yen. n i r .
8 Q . -- a Ti d c o n o .1 u d e d ,i t d i d rt o t c. a u n o .1 .i v e r
9 cancer in ral;:s?
:i o A , T h a t w a t h :i r c o n c .1 u u A o ti .
i. !, Q , An (.1 r r o m I: h a. h , y u a Y b h o s? o t w o .s I; u d. ieig
:i 3 .1 a.i d h i d o b y s a i d , c o n f 5 r w t h a t J H T ' f? w o r k w a s 1.3 a. c c u r a t: e >
J 4 A . Yes :i r Q > :i r: e o . W o u .1 d y o u 1 A k e l. o v. x p 3 a .i n b o w y n 1 6 h h i n k u. A n g I: he ;? a in e c h (5 in i. c a 1. i. n 1: h e a. in e 1: y p o o E
:i ? c h r o n A c t o x 5 city n i.ndy w :i t. h d i f f e r e n t r e r: u ,i t a
t 8 c o n f: i v m u 1:. h a. I; AMT did 1: h e i. r w o r k c o r r e c 1; .1. Y? J 9 A . A m T g o i n g 1. o g i v e y on a narrati v e ? Or ho w
3 0 a. re wo go i ng h o d o 1; h i. s ?
3. 1 9 T w a 111 i. o y o u a n w e r t. h a l . g u e s i. i on . 3 wan t 3 3 y o u t o c x p 1. a i. n 1) o w i. t; i. s 1:h a. 1; you be 1. i. eve 1; h a, 1: 1; h e
3 3 f a c t. t. h a I:. Dr . K :i in b r o u g h u u .i n g A r o c .1 o r 1 3 6 0 w :i I h r a 1. r;
3, 4 bound ('..nicer and l.'HT lining A roc loir 1.36 0 with ra i.
3. 8 found Tio can cor confirms t hat. TUT's work was
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7 7.
3 4
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j u s t I: l> n :) (-: two :? I: u d i. o s insteadof: a I. I. 1.1m other
I. \id i e .in 13mworld about, on noer; i s 1. h a 1 ~~
MR, r, A K Y !
I'm t vyi ng to as 1< - - that
i s ~ - 1. b a't i exa c t tv w h a t. T ' in t.r y i n cj 1. o f .i n d o u t.
r i. g t't t n o w v o r y c 1. o a. r 1. y .
MR . FRDKHWAL 1.) : A I 3. r i cj h t . Y o n ' r e
p i. o k t. n g o u t. o n e p .1 r 11 c u 1 a. r 1:ns t . All. r i. g h t .
MR . TACKY: :i a e r t a i n 1 y a m , u s 1 n g t. h e
s a in e I. o ; o 1: c, h e m 1. c a. 1. ,
A , ti u r e . :i c n ti .... 1 1) A V t. a g 5. v e .i t. t. o y o u .i u
a nA.rr.-v : i. v o .
Q - (by Mr. I. a coy) F 1 n e . A . W h e n - - l have ju a 1; been w i t h Mon a a n t o a
h b o :r 1. 1: hie when K i m b r o u cj h ' a d a. 1'. a c a m e>. :i n a n d s a 1 cl
RCH ' n c; u n n earn: e. c . t c a. 1 1 e d. Dr. 0 a tan d r a z a n d l
it ix 5 d - -
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A . t! e w .1 s t, h o li e a. d. o f: CRT.
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n o 1: c o r v e c t. , i. !' i. h ?
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o Dr. On 1 a 'ft d r a w a r. i n d 1 c. 1. o d y was he n o 1. ?
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J 3 t. r 3 a .1 , h n d 3 t w a n ti ' t. r. 3 ft a r t o hi ft why b c i d 3 d n ' t .
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2 4 t' O III ft m o r ft .1 :i d c: a , " h n d h e d 3 d +. ii a 1. f and .1 wont.
2 b a. n d 1. o o k d a t thorn. And t ho m. was s (3 v e r o d a in a cj
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1. I; h o 1. i v e r s o f: 1; h e :? e r a T. i? . 2. Q , Lot wo (stop right there . You .'looted at
sj 1 Lios taken trow the rat:? that were studied by T RT '1 w 5 t h A T o c. 3 o r 3 2 6 0 ? *5 A , Y. e s , 6 Q . A ti d t h o a e a .1 :i d o a a h o w o. d a o v e r e 3 i v o r d a in a g e 7 a a a r e a u 1. h o f o h r o n i o e x p o a u r e ? 8 A . Yea. 9 Q . Ok a y . tl o a h e a d .
:i ci A. And, now, in a sievere.1 y damage: d 3 Ivor, the
i. i. 1. 1 v (5 r h a s a. t, end on o y t o 1; r: y a n d r e c o v e v i. n s p i. t e o P :i 2 t h o d a w a go, 3 t ' a o n e o f t h c: f e w o r g a n a i n w hi .i c: h 1.3 l:hi. a can take place. And, so, in repair, just the 3 4 a a m e a s if y o u c u t o u t. h a 3 f t h e 3 i ver, t ti e 3 i v e r 1. 5 will go bank on i. 1; s own. 1 1:'s the one organ that 3 6 w 1 3 3 d o 1. h a t . 3 7 8 o , 3. e. r, a m e p 3 a e o. was t akin g p 3 a c. e 1.8 w i. k h t h e d a m o. g e 1: r o m t. h e 13 C 13 ' s , L i. k e e v e r y o 1; h e r 1 9 o h .1 o r 1 n a t c: d 3) y d r o o a r bon ; t li e r e: w a a a t. e n d c-; n o y for 3 0 t h a 1'. 1: <5 regene i.m he , And that regeneration, we call. 2 3 3) y p e r p 3 a a t. i c no d u 3 n a . 2 2 And I! said, "Are those hyperplastic 2 3 n o d n 3 o a c, a n o o r a ? " 2 4 And h e s a i. d t h o. y w e r e net, 2 b Q , We;:r e; l.h oy p,r <;<: a. n c. <::i"ou a ?
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A , T h a h'.s a q u a r r o I t h a I:. ' s got ng on in the 2 Uni t ed States w.i thout a n a n s w e r t o ,i t . 3 Q, What 1; c 1. 1. i. n g m e i. i? t h a. t m e d i, c <) sc:i ence 0 oe n n ' t hnve a c.o'n fieri.'ni:: yet on whether 3 I: h s e h y p e r p I. a a I; i e n o d u I e :? a. r e p v o c .a n o e r o u o r n o t ? 8 A . *J* h <:) y ` r o - - i n o u r u n d o r s t. a n cl a e y , y o u o a n ' t 7 call, anything " p re e a. n e e r o u:? " until, you get a cancer. 8 Q . And t h c\ re a.non these a n .i. mails were cut off 9 at f. h o point of; o n I. y having the h y ptvrplas t i. o noii a l oh :i 0 i *. h> ('. c a u se they w e r c i k ,i .1 1 e d a t t. Li a 1. p o :t n t ? ! I. A , Yon . T h e y w e r e - - l; hey w e r o f: o 1.1 owe d t o J 2 the end of (die e x p o :t i in a n 1. a n d t. h e n If .i } .1 ed . 1.3 Q . Andy o u d o n ' t k n o w , h a. d t h e y b e e n 1 e ft to :i <1 1 1 v o! f o r a n o t h e rt h r e e in o n t h s t a o r .i f i c e d. o r It .11 .1 c d , LG a n d t hen t h e i. r I. i. v o r n 1o o !< e d a t, w h e t h e r t hey w o u l d .1 6 have progrciu-if-icl to the stage of cancer; is that 1. 7 c o r.` r e c I-. ? j a A. '.I can't go beyond the end of experiment. 1 9 Q , An d i. t i. n c rs r I: a. L n I. y p o :s ;! i. b I, c , i. s i. I; n o t, 2 0 a n d11) e r e a r e a c i e n +. i s t a w h o b e .1 .i e v e t h a t t h e s e 2 I. h y pc r p I. .a s3 I: i c n od u 1. e a a. r e p re c a n c e r o u s? a nd 1: h a. t, 2 2 cj 1 v o n I. ;i m e , t Li o y w i I .1 d e v e .1 o p i n t o c a n c c>. r ; i s n ' i. 2 2 I. ha. I; correct? 7A A. There- are -- t he re are t h o a e who say 2. G Let's ha. ke .... I; lie fact i. s - - I. s that hype rp last i. c
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Is T. w a i. d, "Would y o u (jo o. nd look a I; the TUT 2 ! 1 1 d e ft ? " And he agreed that the: re; wan not. (.iincor 3 h tie r. And t h a. t ' w a pa c I; o 1: b a y i. ng, "Yen, we've go 4 h y p e rp 1 a a i. I <: n o d u .`I e: a . V) c. d o n ' t h a v e c: a n c e r , " 5 Q, And ho .... did he other an opinion about; 6 whether or- not, in h i a opinion, theme were 7 pcecrincerous and. they would develop into cancer? 8 A . II e n a 1 d - 3 d o n ' t r e c a I .1 t. h e s u b ft t a n c. e o 1 9 h i. j? b t a t e m e n t; b u k , in I: a c t, h o b a i d I: h e v o i. s n o J 0 c. a i) c. e r i n t h e it e. u J i de a , 11. Q. B u 1: d i. d h e ho 1 i. eve 1; ha 1; 1; h o b e h y p o r p 1 a b k i. c .1 ?. n odn .1 e a were a p r e. c nr a or to' canco r ? 13 A , 1 don ' 1. v e. c o. 1 .1. . 1 4 Q > .1 see > J h A . I don ` 1. :r o c a J J w h a t h 1 a w o r d a w e. r e . 1. h Q . it s e e 1 7 A . Bo, 1. h e - - n o , 11) c: n e ;< t t h i n g T a a id, 1. 8 " W e 1 1. , t h a t 1 b v o r y i a k e v e b 1; i. n g . N o w t h a. 1; V Oll'V e 1 9 .1 o o k c: d a t C. a .1 a n d r a 1 / e o u 1 d y o u .1 o ok a t K.i in b r o u g h ' a 3 0 n 1 id e b ? " 3 :i A n d h f) dId, A n d h e .1 o o k e: d a 1. those 3 3 and un. i. d , " T h <5 o a. v n o 1. c a n c o r . 'l.' Imre 1 s n (5 e a n c e r 3 3 ;i n 1. h e in o .i t h e r M 3 4 A n d , it o , we're now b a e )< t o a 3 b k e v m i. n o l ogy a in o n g p a. k ho I. o g I s 1: i u t o v m o f: w h e kh e r
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4 c o r t e c: t. .1 y y 5 A , Yes 6 Q. .1 e e . A n d y o u r e x p 3 a n a 13 o ti :f o r t3i a t 3 s 7 t: h a I; 1; h e 18 `I.1 p a. 1; h o 1. o q i s t s d i. d n ' t k n o w w h a k 1;, h o y w e 8 d o f ri g ? 9 A . No . M o . :i n Q . We 3 3 , bow 3 a 3 t 13i a t y o u e r p 3 a 3 n f 1h e ti , ]. I t h a 1: the 18 '1' pa tiny 1. op 1 s I; s s a w d i. f f e r e n c e s b e t w e e ry 3 2. K1 in b :r o xi q h ' ft k t. u d 3 e ii a n d .1} 1T ' a s t u d 3 e a ? 13 A . T h e r e w e r o n o t s u. b s t a n t i a 1. d i 1: f e r enr.es . J 4 Q. 8 u b s t a n 13. a 3 d A f ferences 5 ti 1 h eyes of the l `5 I 8 T p a t h o I. o (j i. s k s , w e r e n ' I; t h e y ? :i 6 A. The fact. that iltey said that, there wore I. 7 r. a. n e o r I: b e r e d o o s n 1 I; m a. k e t h e in s u b s t. a n I: i. a L I. y 1 8 d 3 f f err ern 1. . J 9 Q . II r, e e . 3 t. a )< o i t y o u ' d a g r e e , t. h e n , t. b a t 7, 0 whether a tanner or a lesion is coiniidnred Cdncorous 2 1 o r noncan c. e r o u ss d o e a n ' t r e a 3 3 y c 3i a n cj o t. h e f.f u b s t. a ri r. o ?. 2 o i: w h a t 1' s 1; h e r e v e r y much, conaif! 1; > 7.3 A . 8 cl y 1h a 1. ay a 3 T) . 7.4 0. 1 t ,i k e it, t hen, you won I d agree 1: h a k 7.8 w b e; 1. he r a .1 e 3 o n o r a tumor that's f o u n d 3 n a 3 3 vor
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I. i. :? o 1. a :? .i. f: :i. o d a ;? cdiicoroiis on n o 1: d o e h n't: v o a 1. 1 y 2 a f f v c. t. t. h e :: 3 9 n 4 f 3 e a n e e o f t. h e 3 (: si or very nuicti? 3 A . You o a. n ' 1; tj o n o r a. L i. x o 3 h a 1; 1? a i.' . -1 ft . 1 n e o. . D 3 d 1. h e. r e, n u 3 1. s t. h a t. )) :r . )' o e) r ;> a h a. v a o 1; o r i z o d a. u n o n c a. n c e r o u :? c. a. u ;? o y o u u 3. q n i f: i. o 6 c o Ti o e r i) a b o u t 1. 3i e t o x 3 c. o .1 o y y o 1 P C H ' h ? 7 A . No, n i. v . 0 ft T3ie da in a go t. 3) a t Dr. Poor hound .in the. 133 T 9 1. i. v e v $ w e r e c h a r a. c. 1: e r i. x, e d a. a :s e v o r e , w a. u i 1; n 0 1; ? :i o ft . Y O S , 3 3 T" . i 1 Q. 33 u t. t. 3) a t d 3 dn ' t c. a u se you any concern a b o u t. i ?. t h o I; o x i, o o 1. o (j y o (:' P C R ' n ? 7 3 A. 1 don't u u d o r s t. a n d what y o u me an about "the1, 14 t x 1 c o l o g y o f; P C R ' s . " :i 3 ft. The 13i e 3i a x a rtbi , t. 3ie. (hrnynrf! , 1 6 A . c e r 3 a i. n 1. y 1 3 1 ts i. m p o r 1; a n 3 . '1.' h a 1; ' u i. in p to r 3. a. n 3 7 i n f o :i" m a t i on . J 8 a ft n d t. 3i e j- e a d 3 n g k 13i a 3. 3) r . P o o r in a <3 e: 0 f t. 3l o I 9 o f: 1;. h o ,1. i. VO V !5 (! r o m K i. lit () r o u q h ' ;3 3 u d i. o :5 a 1 ;? o u h o w o d 2 0 e v e r e 3 o n ,i o n 2 I. A . Yon, n 3. r . 2 2 ft ..... c-j id Idioy n o 3 ? 2. 3 A . Y o n , u 3. r . 2.4 ft ft n d 13i a t c a u e d y o u r. o n c o :rn a 3) o u t 1.3i e 2 8 3, O X i. o 1 o q y o !: (? (313 ' u , d i. d n't i. t. ?
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I. w o r I (1 oxp r I-. n o a, n o a r , i.fi h o n o t ? 2 A. I'm not a world expert on rancor,and .1 3 o. a n ' t. a n n w o r I; h a. h . <\ Q . 1 s a <'. . W o ] .1 , a :r o y a u a a \i f f i c. j e n t fi x p fi r 1. 9 o n t o x i. c o I. o g i. c a l ,s I; ij d i. o t o r o o o (j n i. x o I: h a t l: h o 6 if a vj a t fi s fi p fi o p .1 (; w 3io w o. r e d o i. n <j t. h c t u d ,i e a on PCI) * h 7 .1 n d. 1: h e i. r c a r c i. n o g oni.fi film, rac h <3 r i. fi t .1. c fi w (3 r o 8 r o o o g n i % e d .1 fi a d fi r a i 1) t h e: i :r f i e .1 d ? 9 MR . R R U li tl W A I!, D : r, o 1; me oh j o o t t (3 t h e .1 0 q n o a t i o n , C a n y o u g i v e u r; a n a m e t h e r e. ? 'J' h e r e in a y l 1 b o s fi v o r a. 1 J <3 p a. n n :3 o , a n d i t ' ;3 h a r d t o a a y w h i. o h o n o .1 2 y u ' r c: r a f o r 3" i n g t. o . 1.3 MU . U A0 t; Y : My quo fit ion now i. fi not 1 -1 a b o u t. o n o P a r t .i c u 3 ar Japanese , b \i t t h fi J a j) <i r> o f; e t!5 p fi O p 1. fi d, o i. n g -.3 1: u d i. fi :? . 3 6 MR . PRO KHWAt.D : h i a. r a c c: 1. he d a p a n c :: 17 a. r: fi b fi t t o r ? 0 r i. fi I: fifil'O fi o in fi ...... 1 fi MR . ] < AC KY : No. The, quest, ion lias to l 9 d. o w i. t h t 11 fi ,r a p .j n o fi e r e fi e a, r c. h or fi who fit, ud i. fid the 2 0 -t 0 x .i c. of f o 0 t of )JC)I 1 s an d :i n p a. ,r t i. r. n 1 a r t ii o: i :r 2 L c a r c i. n o g e n i. c i. I: y , 2 2 M R . 1'RtlKnWAI.]) : T h e-i r c. m a y b o - - in a y b o 2 3 d. o x o n fi (31* 111 o o . Do you Im. vo onp.3 in ..... that y <3 u 1' r o 7A t a .3 ]< :i n q a 3) o vi 1 ? 2 9 Q, (By Mr. I,ar. oy) Lot. me: - - .lot. mo go at. .it
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a n o i h e v w y :? o w q c a. n c 1. a c i f: y y o u r l a w y <5 r ' a
2 C, O T) f U !! i o n w i t. h 1. )i e tjb 3 D i. d y o u
6 M on a n t o t a k e a n y n n t
b c. a. n c o r c. a. u s? i. nq p r o p o c
f. d on o i T) t h e Un j t ed y t
7 A , W e 1. o o k fid a. t
B Q . A ri d t be y 1 T e 9 q u e u !; i on w h o t h e r PC B '
1 0 A . Yen
:) 1 Q > Y o u c a n 11. w r 1. 2 w e t; e d o n e b y ,T a. p .3, n e s e
J 3 A , No, a :r ,
1 0 Q , 0:r w h e t h o. r t. h e. y w e :r e d o n o b y G e r m a ri a --
I. 5 A , No, sir.
J 6 f) , ..... o r S o v ;i e +. a o r a n y b o cl y e J a c*, r. a n you ?
I. 7 A . M o , :? i. r .
JB
MR.KNll KBWA b)) :
That doc; a riot go to my
I. 9 h j o c t i on. My o b j o t i. o n <j o e a I; o " d o /. e n a of .)' a p a n e a e
2 0 who arc. working" and your ref orencci to any one of
2 I. I: h o m a u b e i. n <j a. w o r 1. d - v enown o d expo r t . 0 n e o i: l. h e m
2 2 may bo. One may not bo.
3 3 r. f you can <j i. v o a name, the man can
3 -I r e r> j> o n d ,B vi t j u n ta a y 1 ri q " a
J a p a n a r, e d o i n <j
3 5 r e i; e a. re h , " he's --very d i t: f:i. o u i. I; to a a y t. ha. I: that
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H7
I. pa r I; i c u I. a r on e , by b n i. n g a ,Ja pa. ne h g , I u t h e r o !: or e a
2 w o r .1 d - r o. ti o w n e d e X p o r t .
3 T'm just rfiquusti mj n,).me!i to be. fair
-1 to 1.bo w.i tru-!'!!) to ask about "world :ranowred , "
r> Q. (Hy Mr. bar, ey) Did you review or have
6 someone in ytnir d o par tin e n t review the da pane so
7 s I: u d i o s o n whet h o r P C B ' :s c a u j? e <: a n o e r ?
fl A , y e SI .
9
Q . Di d you gi ve
a ny e o n s .i d e r a t i o n t. o t hi e
i. n q u a 1 i f i. c a t i. o n s <5 h t. h e p e o p I. e c o n d u c t :i. n g t h o u e
j1 studies in trying to determine whether or not to
2I. r e 1. y o n t h e in ?
1 3 A . You .
3 4 Q. Did you find the people doing the studies
I. 3 t o b e r e t. i. a b I. e r e s e n r e h e r s t h a t you c. o u 1. d r e 1 y o n ?
1 6 A. I -- 1 only have the. report. 1 can't do
I. 7 u. n y m or n I:, h a n 1. o o k a, t t h e i. r r e p o r t .
j a Q . We.l 1 , tha t ' ?> my gues t.i on . Wha t I 1 m try a ng
I. 9 t a find out. i. whether you ma.de any effort to
2.0 d e t e r m 3 n e w b e t h e r o r n o t t. h o r: e r e p o r 1. s c. a m e f r o m
2 I. p e o p I w h o u h o u l d b e c o n i d e r e d r e 1. i. a b1. e o r n o t.
2.2. A . 1 h a d n o g u e n t i o n a b o u t t h e re .1 i a b 3 1 i ty .
3 3 Q , T h a t ' :s in y <i u e >? L i. o n . M o w , t h os e ,f a. p a n o u e
2A u t u d 3 e, fs e o n f a r m e d t h e. c. r.\ r o. 3 n o g e n :i c. p o ten 13 a 1 of
9.3 P C. B ' :? , d i. d. t la e y n o t ?
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1. A . They t3.i, i. d. t Im re was? iMiicur, yes. 2 Q. A it d t. h a 1., a .1 s o , w o u .1 d c a j 1 i Tt t o y u e s t1 o n 3 1; h e. s t u d 1 o :3 d o n o b y I R '1.' , won 1. d 1 1, n o t ? 4 A . And NCI . 5 Q - Ye s . 6 A , And 1 a m ft ay i r>g 5 t he -- 5 t. <t t 5 '1 J goes 7 b o. c k t o 1: ho char ac t o r i. 55a t :i. on - A r0 t hone a It y p e. r p .1 a ft 1.1 c it o d u .1 e s , o r a r e t. h o y r. a n c e r it ? T It a t ' ft 9 t h o onl y I; blue; w e ' r e t a 1 k 1 n g a b 0 uh, an d they ' r 0 a. 1 I. :t o t h e f! a HI c-t t h j n cj . J l (> - Have yon looked at any of the ft.l.idofi from 1. 2 h h .T a p .3. a o s e :3 1. u d i. e :? ? :i 3 A . :r h a v 0 - " n 0 , 1 b a v 0 n 01 . 14 Q 0 1 d D r . 1-.' 0 0 r l 0 0 k a f f li e n .1. 1 d 0 :3 I: r 0 m a 11 y 0 1: 1 b t h c; 1 a )'t a n 0 ft 0 ft t. u d .i 01: ? 1. 6 A . Ho did n0 1. . ] 7 0 - Did ))r. Cit] amirn look at any of the ft 13. dots 1. 0 f r o m 1; h o. J a p <3. 11C ! ft O 13 1, u d. i. O :3 ? 1 9 A , .1 d 0 n ' t k now . 2 0 Q Old anybody working for or on behalf: of 2 1 M o n s a n t, o ' ft commit ant over look at a ft ingle slide 2 2 f r o m O 11 O 0 l: 1; h 0 a 0 J a p a n 0 13 0 :31: ud i. 0 0 ? 2 3 A . N 0 , ft :i r . 24 M k' . V HI) KUWAU); Wo' r e t a 1 If i n q a b 011 t. 2.5 J a. j> a n e :t e H hud i,oi3 do no i. n - when? - - 1 n the
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L
R i g h h i o S ? Or o ,3 n you g i. vo us a
l;o on who. n bhoso
2 wo.ro do tic;?
3 MR , I, ACHY : We'IT, ] e t trio a s k h :i hi that
4 M R . F R IJR U W A 1', D : You ' l'(i i. (U p 1. y i. n (j t h a 1:
5 t.h o y were avai .1 ;ib.l c a 1. t h cl t 1 i in e , a n d w o a i .1 )< T) o w 6 1; h o Y w e. r e n ' h . 3 o , w h y d o n ' 1: you cl a r i. 1: y h h o -- 1: h 7 da te?
H () . (H y Mr. I. a c o y ) W e J 3 , .1 o t mi e a s k a b o u t.
9 t It a I; .W h en d i. d th o J a pa n o.s o d velo p a n 1 n t e r e s t i. n
J 0 t. h a t o x .i v. :i t y of POD' s ?
I. 1
A . I c a n ' I; a. n s w o r I: h a. I; .
d o n 1 I: k n o w .
J 2 Q. Do you know (-uiough about the; history of
1.3 PCB's to know that the -- hho.ro was a very severe
1 4 i s vi o or c. a s e o f po 5 s ott 5. n g o f pe o j> 3 e wi t h P CH ' s 5 n
I. 5 Yu. sho "
J 6 A . yes .
I. 7 Q . ~~ iu 1.96 3?
J H A . 3 pa r Li c i pa t ed i Ti i. h a t i 9 7 b mi e. e l i n g .i n
I. 9 a (j o w lio n they pros on I. od t h o i. r da ha .
2 0 Q W h i c h d a t. a a r o y o u t a .1 k :i n g a b o u t ? 2 I. A . 'I.'hoi. r Yu. sho --
2 2 Q Yeah . 2 3 A . - - i. n c i. d o n 1; .
2 4 . A T! d , a s a r c h u .1 t of thal 1 9 6 H in c. i d e n t., 2 3 .I' a. pa n o. s e bo. oa m e v o r y o o n r. o r n od i n k h o I: ox i o i. t y o i:
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I. the pen1' , d i. d 1'. h e y n o 1: ? 3 A . Tb o y a u r e. d 5 d . 3 o B o , c (X n c e r n o d I: h e 1; h o i. r G o v o r n in o n I: b.i n n o d (\ lb e ma mi f a c lu ro and uue of P C H ' ff tt over a .1 y o a v n 5 bnlio ro 1: h e fi n i. 1: o d B 1: a b e u d. i. d , d .i. d n ' A 1: li e y ? 6 A . :i d :i d n ' 1 know Dial 7 Q . Y o u. d id n o L k n o w 1: h a 1 ? 0 A . No , 9 Q T ,fl o c. no you UTid e :r r; 1 a n d 1. h a 1 1 h o 3 a p a n o s e 1. 0 h .x v e b .i. n n e d I: h o u u e o I: I? ('.' H ' s ? I :i A . 3 d .i d ft ' t )'. t) o w .i i , b xi t you ' r e 1 e 11 .i n g w o ,, I. 3 r. :i 3 Q . y o u 're not. even awa :r e o f A h a 1 ? J. 4 A , No , s i. r , :i 9 Q > A r o you aware of lb e a o 1 j o n 1 a ]< e ri b y a n y 1. 6 o i: her o onn 1; i; y w L t h re go rd t. o 1: h e in a n u f a. c. 1: u r o. a n (j u n o J 7 o f P CM' s ? I. B A, , No , :5 i, c , 1 9 0. . ]') :i d you have any re p o n fl i b i J 5 1 y whirl. ,c; o e v e r 3 0 f: o r; 1: h o M o n p a. n i; o p 1. a. n A i. n ,T a pa n 1; h a 1: in a de PCI! ' n? 3. 1 A . No , s :i r . 3 3 9. W o r o you even aware t. h a 1 Monnanlo made 3 3 PC B ' i? - 3. 4 A . N o , a i r . 3. b Q ..... i n ,Ta pa n?
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1. T sue , No bod. y o v o. r b rough!. 1; ha. I: Lo
2 y o u r a 1 i. e n f3 o n V
3 A. . No, u i. r .
4 Q - In any of the 1. ;i in o Unit you wo.ro a head of F) 1: ho modi, e a. 1. d e pa. r 1; m on I: i. n M o n :s a n L o ?
6 A . N o , ti ;i r .
7 Q - Wore you aware of t. ho. fact that Mon?! a Tito
a m a. d e 1? C a ' s i. n H n g 1. a n d o v - -
'
9 A . yos .
'
1 0 Q . ..... i. n 1; It e f J n i. t o d K i. n g d o m ? 3 3 A . V C-'. S' ,
1 2 Q - You w o r e a. w .a r e o 1: t h a 1: ?
13 A . y o b .
.
3 4 Q Wero you a war'd of what action the United 1. 5 Kingdom 1: ook with regard to the u :? e of PCI! 1 s?
1 6 A , N o , ?! 1 r .
'
3 7 Q :r see , W h e n did you flr.'it become aware of
1. a and luvft presented to you s 1: udi. on by the Japanese
3 9 w :i t h r e g a d t.o t h e c a nee r - c a u s 1 n g j> o t c n 11 a 1 o i
2 0 PC 13 ' s ?
2 1 A . It was part, of our review after -- when
2 2 Ortonjfi 5 i. v i. n;? c u a inf o r m o d m o .
2 3 Q . A n d w h e n w a a t fi a l ?
2 4 A . About L 913 0 , something of that order.
2.5 Q And what did yon determine from that rev 1 e w
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') /. ~l
l a. b o u I: t; h e .3 v *3. i. 3. a b .1 1. i t y o t t h o s <5 h 1; u d .1 e s , w h a. n I: h e y 2 b ci c a in e a v a i. .1 a b 3 01 ? 3 A. 3 cl .3 <3 a 't. 1 oo){ a t 1 h <1 a t. e3 when those were 4 dono ,
Q. I nee. Did you ever :re. quest that anyone go 6 to Japan and look a!; those s I. i.d0s to determine how 7 y o u w o u .1 d r a a d t h e 111 ? 8 A . Mo, S3 i r . 9 Q . W h a I. 5 s t. 3) e M o n s a n t. o p o 3 i t .i o n t o d a y , J u ti e I 0 l 1th, 1.987, with regard to whether 0 C B ' s cause 3 :i e a ti c e. :r ? 3 7. A . 11 ti asn't be e n domon stratad t h a t PC8 ' s 1.3 c a u s e e a n e o r , 3 4 Q , An d 13i a t ' t h e Mon s an 1. o pos 3 13 on ? l !5 A. 7es. 3 f> Q . A n d , y c s t, M 0 (1 ! c:l n t. 0 to t.h i s very d a te, dune I 7 I; h , 1987, h a ;3 n e v cs r 1; <.i. !< 0 n the lrouble 1 0 g 0 b 0 3 8 J iipan and .looli at t. tie slides of those Japanese 19 research projects to see w heather they agree or 7 0 disagreed they show cancer; is that correct? 3 l A , 'l' h a I; ' S3 r S. g h t , 3 3 Q . tin t. Monsanto continues to and tins 3 3 cons i s ton I; I. y lalcon the position t h a I:PCH ' s h a v e not. 3 4 b con d e in o n 3 t. r a t o d t o c a u a e c a n c e r ? 3 8 A . Ye si .
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93
_1
Q. One, iiannol; d i. t? e v e d i. I', or ruin o u h a study
wh:ic. h ;! it y a that "Be found cancer by an animal study
3 w i. t it o u 1; 1 o o k i it q n 1: t It o s 1. i d e n , can they? d A . Hy knowi n g t h inn rr/ior i n w it .i c h P C J l s a f 3' e c: t
b h It o 1. i. v e r a ltd undo, rs ha ltd lit (j i. 1: and they d o a n o t It tt r
6 study t.h ;t t ' s ox a c t. J y J ,i )< e o u r s a n d t hi a y get t hi e a it in o
7 dlt IJVftlt o I: ). Ivor da ma, qo a. s o u r;? and tltity S (t e t It e s a in e
8 r e p a ,i :r it t. ive, r egen ora t t v a t Ji .t n g s t hi a t. t oo!( p 3 a c. (\ ,r n
9 Jt h e l r - - i. n I: It e i. r a n i in a 1. s , 1: It o :> a m e a ;> 1 it OUT'S,
1 0 .1 s .... W (:) d ,i d n ' 1. f e e 3 a s t J) o u cj hi we needed t o 3 a o k it t.
l !. 1: Item ho dec i. d e .
:i 2 9 The only way y o u )c ti o w whiat thios e. .1 :1. v e. r L 3 s 1 i. d 0 ;5 u how i. s h o p u t t h e m u n d e r t it e in i. c r o;? cope a nd 'I 4 3 o o )< a t t. J) e in, :i s n ' h 5 t ?
A. To be .1 !> :) o I. u I; e I. y sure, that wouJ.it be
:i f> e o r r a ct ,
j v Q . That ' s the reasoji thatyou pa 5 d TJIT to send
I. 8 i. t s p a It o I. o g i.:? I', t o ijo 1 o o l< a I; D r , K i. m b v o u <j h ' s
J 9 n .1 -i d i:t s, .1 on ' t:1 t ?
2 0 A . T ' hi n o t s u :r e e x a c 11 yhow t h a t. t o o J< p 3 a e e .
?. !, Q T h a t. ' s I; h o r e as o n y o u p a t d I') r .Po o r t o q o
?. ?. .1 o o J< a 1. ]) r . K :1 in b r o u g h ' si 1 :i. d c-t s' , .1 s n ' t. 5 t ?
23
A.
'I.' h a I;'s 11\ e reason Ipaid him
h o do it, yes .
3 t 9 . )):r . J ' o a r w a s n' t w i .1 .1 .1 n g 1. o s a y t h a t.
2 5 D r . K 1 m b r o u q It d i. dn ' 1; f:i. n d e a. n o. o r w i. t It it u t L i. r s i:
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9 >1
t 1. oo k i. ng a. I: he i: s? L i. dos , w.js ho?
3. A . W e .1 1 , i . h a t ' ss what X a is k c: d h i m t o d o .
3 () , Dr-. 1? o o v w a. is n ' 1; w i l 1 L n g t o is a y t h a. t
4 D J" , K i in b r o u cj h ' n study d i d n o t c. a u ss o c a n c e r w i t. h o u t
3 11 i. v :s 1; I. o o k 1 n g at l;he H 1. 1. d O IS , w a is h o ?
6 MR. KKUHHWAI.D : lie wan n o v o :r a ss k e d t o
7 d o t h a. t . T h a t ' is w h a t; t h o w t 1:. n e is is ju is t is aid. 3 o , w o
a d o n ' t k ti o w w >i e 1. h o r h e w a a w 5 II .1 i rig o r r> o t .
9 M R , lb AC R Y : We 1 I. , I'd 1 i. k e. t'. o ha. vo I', h e
:i o a ri w er t. o t h o q vi < m t. .1 on ,
i. l A , 3 a v i. 1; a g a i n , p 1. (} a. is e ,
1 3 G . (Hy Mr. baccy) I) r . Poor w a a n ' t. w.i .1 J i rig to 1 3 t h a 1; Dr . K i. m b r o u g h ' is tstudy di. dn' t show that
:i o P C H ' h c. a n e. d c a n c. e r w i t. h o u t. f ;i r rs t j. o o k i ri g a t. t h e
!. 3 is I. 1. ii o s, w a t; h e ?
I h A . T h a t' s r i tjh t .
l 7 Q , l i.is n o I; p o is is i. bLo f. o r ap o r is o n h o r n a. a h a
:i n c o ri c 1 u ai o '/i t h a t a n yp a r 1.5 c. u J. a r s t nd y c'i o si n ' t. s h o w
19 c. a n a e r w i I: h on h a. h Ioa is I; h a. v L n g look c d a I: I: h e is .1. j. d o is ,
30 i 8 i t?
3. 1 A , :i f you 'vo. done it. tentimes, you don't have.
33
I: o do it; I; h o I. I. th I; i. m o to is ay i. kd o osn ' I; ,
Mow, you
3 3 can prod i nt w hot's going to take place from - - any
3 4 a in g 1. o !? t u d y i is is u t tl i. o l o n I; h o I; o I. I. a h o u t a t. I. k h o
3 3 o th e r l. u d i o <? a f t e ry o u a r e r. o n via e e d w h a t. ' a l. a 1< i a g
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I. p 1. a <1 e a ti d u n d e r u I; a. n d l n g I; h a p <3 t h o 1. o g y I: h a. t t; a k es
2 p .1 a e o 1 n t hi e s o 1 1 v e :r s f :r o in P C H ' s 3 S we 1 .1 u ii d er s t o od ,
3 the Paul. t h ,i 1. 1; h o v o ' s d a. in a g e 1; o Lhe t i. s g u o . 'l.' h o
4 d a p a n e s e f o u n d o. x a e t .1 y t hi e s a in e t. hi 1 n g w e (11 d . Whi on
Si 1: hoy - -
6 Mow do you know that? 7 A . B e c a. u :? er t hi a t ' ;? w h a 1: h a p p o n u when you take a
fj c hi .1 o r 1 Ti a t. od hydrocarbon and dose a .1 .1 v e r w 1 t hi -- a n d
9 1; h n coupon ho w i. 1. 1. be exactly wha !; w (3 1: o u n d .
] 0 0. - 7 o u k n o w t hi a t 1 n t u 1 11 v e 1 V , w 1 1. hi o u t ever I. 1. h a v i. ng 1. o o k od a. t a g j. n g 1. o o n e o I: t h e i v s l i. d e s ; i. g
1 3. t h a t y o u r 'test 1 in o ti y ?
.13 A . M y -- t h a 1; ' g in y 1 m p c e:? s i. o 11 o 1: w h a t w i 1. 1
] 4 t a I: e p 1 a c. e , y e s ,
1 f>
Q. T ji
c-i e . And that. :i in pr e s i on .in basci d
1.6 p r L in a r i.L y (in I. o o !< ,i n g .3 k I B T w o r k P o c Mont; a n k o , i. ;=; n ' k
1 7 i t. ?
J ft
A, And
the NCI fit udy,which was done with the
L 9 eq ua 1. ap p r oa e h,i. n e xae k 1. y I; h e sam e 1: o r m , wh Lc h s av u
2.0 th e s a ine th 1 rig .
21 Q. And, s o , It Is your,i nt.oirprcrhati ori , i. hen,
2 2 k h .3. I: h li o d i f: P e r e n c e b e I; w e o n I". Ii e J a p a n e u o u 1; u d i o u a, n d
2 3 1. h e d 1 f f e r e n c e s o 1 o p i n 1 o n 1 n A m e r 1 c a i s f. h a t t )i e
2A. J a. p a n o e b e I. J. e v e k h a h w |\ a t I: h e y s o o t;? , i. n P a o t,
2 3 c a n cer?
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I. A , Y a :? . 2 Q . A n d a o mi e j) e o p 1 e 5 n A in e r 5 c a t h 1 n k j t. 'a no t 3 a 1? a e r , and 0 i. h <3 r:? k h i n k i. k i. :? ? 4 A . Ye s . b Q A r e you a w a i" 0 0 f a rt y JI a pan e h 0 s i. u d i 0 w h 1 r. h fi 1: 0 unit k h a k \? C R ' :? d 1 d n <3 k c.ui:? e 0 a n 0 e r ? 7 A . 3 t. h 1 Ti k s 0 m 0 0 1 t. h 0 1 r s t u d 1. 0 i s a 1 d t. h e. y 8 d idn ' k caun o cance r , 9 Q . IF fj e e . W h i o h oriel!? I 0 A , I d o n ' I; r o in o m b e r , 1 J (3. Wh on wan the last t. 5 w e you re.vi e w e d t. h o o I. 2 :3 I". U d i. (3 !3 ? :i 3 A. I've gone over them .in preparation for L 4 hlvi. a, but r. o n i. y had one day to get ready for t h i, :? , 1 *s Q . I !: e e . 1 6 A . So, I rea1 ]y haven't reviowed them . t 7 0. Wo I. I. - i a A. I feel -I 'vn looked -- I ' ve turned .it; I. 9 b u t t o s a y I! ' v o rev i. e w e d. t h e in , l h a v o n o t . 2 0 Q , Were I. he fitauti s that yon roe all from J a pan 2 L s a. y 1 n g I: h a i: 1? C 0 ' :? d i d n o t e a u s o e a u:? (3 e a n c e r t hone 2 2 wore those whore very lowdone;! were used? 2 3 A . f k n (3 w k h a k ' s? p a r I: o I: i. !; . ' W h o t. h e r f h a I; ' 3 2 4 t h e s; u b u t a n o o o f 1 t - - a n d t h a t 1 o x a 0 11 y w h a t)' C H ' s ?. S will. do. At low done:?, no damage. h i. I; k I. ebit of
WELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
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1. d a m a g o , no regeneration, no progress Ion ho I: h o
2 p r o .1 ,i / e ra ti vc: Jcr.-iotir, wh.l ch we have a qua r` :r e .1 o n
3 w h a. 1; hha t m oa. n :s .
4 Q Wo 1.1 , .'1 o l. ' a 1.a J k a Vi o o t. d o i e r f: o r a in .i nut o , S When wo talk about a "dose , " w (3 ' t: e t a 1. k 1 n g a b <3 u t t h o
f. a in o u a l. o 1 o h o m 1 c a .1 t h a 1. g e. t o A n t o a b o d y 1. hat. cart
7 h a v e a n o, (: 1: e a t o n 1. 1;, a r e n ' 1; w <3 ?
8 A . 11 h a r p o i o Ti 15 a 1 f o r h a. v A n g e f f e c t .
9 Q . 0 k a y . " D o :s e ,r i. r the amount of! eh (3 in i <3 .a 1
:i o t. h a t. g f Is 1 nt. o tho body?
1 !. A . Y o :? , r i. r .
,1 2 '
Q - A n d t h a h A g hi er t h e d o s e , t h e. in o r e r e v e r e
13 t h o p o l; o n 1. i a 1 o 1: I : o c 1: a ?
.1 4 A . Hor o 1 .5 ke .1 y t.h a t. there w 5 ] .1 b e e f fee. t,
1 s f: i >: a 1: .
j a Q > And the more never r e t. h e e f f e e t. i f t. ti e :r e 5 r l 7 o n (-3 ?
J R A . A t t h e hi i g h e ;r d o h e , t hi e in o r e 1 .i k e 1 y i t. w A .1 1
1.9 b (3 m o c o r e v o c o .
7.0 0, . *.!' hi a t ' s k n own a r a " d o re-resp o n re
21 r o 1 a h i onuh i. p , " i. a i. h n o l; ?
2 2 A . Y e .c! , n it t .
2 3 Q . A. n d 8 C R ' s h a. v o a. d (3 e - r e n p o n <3
24 ,r e .1 a t. A o n s h :i p , d o t h e y :n o t. ?
2. !5 A . Ye :? .
NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
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I. Q. And,, h h o r n h n r e , t he morn sovero the
y.
n x po ?! lire , t h e more ?! ev er eI.h e
ef f er. t.?! tha I. oi>e in 1 g h t
3 e x p (i o I: I*, o s e e i. (: I; he r o a c o a n y m a n i. I: o I', e d ?
4 A. The bigger the dose, the more 3 i 1; e J y
3 h h o i: e ' :?g o i. n q I: o b oa. n e I: I7 e cl:, y e .
6 {) . A a d , a 1 ?! o ,t h (0 bi cj g a r t. h e d o ?j e , 1 h em o r a
7 1. i k e 1. y I: h e o t I: e c h w i. I. I. b e a i? e v e r e o n e ?
fl A, Ytifi.
'
9 Q . Ok a y . A n d wh a t y ou re. c a 1 1 f r om .1 o o){ i n g a t.
I 0 the Japanese :j hud i.tis 1:5 'I:ha I: the low done 5? tud ten
J 1 d .i d ti ' t. f :i n d c a n c, o r, w h e r e a ?! t h e h i g h e r d o s e ?: t \i d 1 <?. s
I. 2 d 1 d. ; i a I: h a t e o r r e e I: ?
1 3 A. Yen.
.
l 4 Q . And I: h a h ' s -
1 9 A. We.1.1 , now-- and, again, they didn't a .1 .1
l fi e a l I. ca n a er . So mo h i. me :i I:h ey had I: he s a me k i. nd o I:
I 7 prob.l cion we have., and they e aided them other
1.0 t h i n g *.5 . 3 o m o t i. m o s t h e y c a1.1 e d t h ein h e p a. t o 111 a. :i . A n d
1 9 t h e r e 1 s e o n f 11 ?: i o n :i n I- h a t w li o .1 e elan?! 1 f .1 <-. a t. 3 or; ,
?.n Q. W i th regard h 0 w h e 1: h e r i t ' n a e a n c e r 0 r a ?. i h e p a 10 m a 0 r w h a t. c: v e r 1 k in a y b 0 e a 1 1 e d , n ?) t h e r e a ny 3 2 d 0 u b 1: 1: h (: a n i in a 1. h a ti a s 0 v c: r e p 1:0 b 1 cn m y
2 3 A . No d 0 u b i. a b 0 n t. i t .
2 4 Q . Ok ay. A r 0 y 0 u a w a. 1:0. of any :? h udi.es t h a 1: 2 9 .1 e t t h e ; . n.! in a 1 ?i full ... TM r u n a f u 1 .1 1 i f e c y e .1 e a n d
NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
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99
1. I: h e n p (i v I: o r m e d a n a. u t o p y if; t o r d o ,v h h f r o m w li a 3: e v e r p t. h e n a 1r. u t a 1 c a u c e w a s ?
3 A , On PCII'm?
-I Q. - Y e , t> A , No , 1 don't v e c a I 1. .
6 Q . That would be ono way to determine w h e t h e r 7 ?7 r n o t h l \v? e hepa 1,o ma s , or wha t ever e 1 a e we in <r y c a l 1
0 the changes, are precurfi or s for cancer, would it
9 n o I; ?
1 n A . 1 t w o u 1 d g 3 v a t h e min o r e: a d e g u a t. c 13 in e for
I. I t h o. 1: r o a p o n :? e I:. o I; a. Ic e p 1. a <: o , y o a .
3 2 Q H\it Mon;? a 7i to 'never performed any studies of
13 t h a. I; t y p o , d 1 d 1 t ?
34
A . No, n .3 r .
T h e r e - t h o r f; .3 s n 1 t g e n o :r- a 1 1 y
t 9 agreed that you have to do i hat. The. -- the NCT.' ami
3 6 t h o N T 3-' j> r e n e n 1.1 y a r c d o 3 n g t w o - y e a r s t u d 3 e s w 3 t h o u t
3.7 d. o i. n <j l; h a 1: f: o r h h o i. r 1: u d 3. (7 :? , 13 o , w h a I; w e d i. d w a
3 33 c o n a .3 a t e n t. w 3 t h t h e pr a e t 3 c e. .3 n t h e II n .3. t. c d 331. a t. e ft .
1.9 Q , M y p o i. n i; i. a : W 11 h 11\ i. a q u e a 1. i. o n a l; o u t
2 0 whether or not what was ohnerved was or was not
2 l cancer, Monsanto never followed up to determine
2 2 w li ether' or not .3 f t h e animalwas lot. .1 .3 v e beyond the
2 .3 two-year date to kill, it, 3; hat would g o on and be
2 4 3 n d 3 a j> u t a b .1 y c. a n c e r ; x s t h a 1. e o rr e c t. ?
2 3 A , If I: h a. t w a ;! p o a a i. b !.(7 .
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1 00
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Q. l:j it your l:c>:i I: inion y that you don't know o I:
?. a n y b o d y who ' e v e r d o n e t h a '1. ?
3
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No .I don ' I: know whether It's
boon done ,
4 Q . X boo, ] j! the: ro any (Hicsti on :i n your mind
5 t ha. 1. the o I: (: e o 1 n ol: PG R':? on l.ho rat:? :? tudied by I'RT
6 wero s ev oro ?
7 A . N o q u e n t i.on,
H Q . Wha t e vox- we o a .1 .`I 5 1, t h oy ' or-e s evere?
9 A . You, :? i r ,
:i o Q. Why don't, wo g o a bond and take a break at
1.1. (.hi.:-: point, a.nd ob.imjo tape boto.ro I go into my next;
I 2. ] 3 t) e o f e x a m 5 n a 15 o n ?
13 T H R VXD R 0 G.R A P H R R : W o a r e n o w g oil) g
J 4 off t. h e r e c. o r d . T h c 11 m o 5 s 10:39 a . in .
IS (ilho r 1. H o o o :? :? )
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I. 7 I: h o r o. o o r d . h o I: i. m o i:? I. I. ; 0 B a. . m .
1 8 Q . (H y M T . 1, a o e. y ) '.l* h e. e. f f e o t s o f P C H ' s o n t. h c 1 9 1 i. v e v :? o f: the ral that you reviewed, 1: h e 1 B T ,
2.0 5 n c 1 u d e d tumorr; :i n the 1 avers, d i d 5 1. n <>1. ?
2 1. A . Again, you have a p r o b 1 e m o n w h a. t y o u tn e a n
2 2 by a "tumor." A "tumor" moans a growth. And, so,
2. 3 you ran have: a. hyperplastic nodule that can bo
?A called a "tumor" and then you got. a neoplastic
2 S h o d u 1 o a n d y o u c n n <j o I; h r o u g h 1, h w h o I. e p r o c e u h .
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1. 0. . Hu t: I*. ho h y p o r p I. a a t i e n o d u I. o n a r o o o m m o n 1. y 2. r e f e :r T' ed t. O A fi " t. u m or ,c; , " a r o 1. h o y n o t. ? 3 A . rn H , I. h oy can bn . T ii o y ' r e. o u .1 y a tumor i. 1: A t. h e y cj ct. large e nough to b o a t u m o r . 11 f t hoy're 5 p r es o n t:. o n 1. y i. n i. n i. 1'. u , than you don ` 1:. c.a 1 1. h h c m a b " t. u tn o r u 7 Q V o u a a w e v j d e. 11 c. e o f t. h o n o h y j> o r p .1 a a t. .i <: B n o d u 1 (i i n t 11 7/ a. 1: 1. i. v e rs that were l.anjn enough to 9 b e. c a 1 .1 e d " t u m o r a , " d j d y o u n o t. ? l 0 A , Ye s . 1 j Q. A n d y o u w o u 1 d T) 't character -1. 2 A , T. i7 1: h o h i g h d o h e 1 3 Q Y e <i , 1 A A . 1 <1.1(111' 1. .look at t h e o t. h e r s . 1. 3 0 . r. hoo , And. wile n you say "high do s a , J 6 y o u ' r c t a 1 k i n g a b o u l . t. h e J 0 0 part:; per m ,i 1 .1 5 Oil? l 7 A . Yo^ , :i 8 Q A ri d .... 1.9 A . I 1'. h i n k 1: h a. t ' h w !i a t i. t w a. h , 7.0 0. A n d .i ri t h o a e c a s on where you look e d a t t. h o 7, 1. 1. 1 v o r s and. haw 1; he 1:u in o r; h o a. u h n d b y t lie h i. g h d o h o o 2 3. PCIl ' n a 1 .1 0 0 p a t t a p e t m .i J 1 .i on , you won .1 dn ' t 3,3 c h a. r a. e 1; o r i, v; n t h o H n 1: u m o r h .3 H " H 1. i. (j h t., " wo u 1. d you? 7.4 A . T d O 7) ' t know what we moan by "s'li q h 1. . " 2B Q Wn 11. , w o u I d --
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] 02
1. A , '1.' h o y w o r (: ..... b h e y w e c o b u m o r . 2 Q . W o u 3 d y o u d c ?: c r 3 b o t. h e in a s u js 3 .i cj hi t. 3. \i hi o r s; " ? 3 A , 1: 1: li o y w e r o s m a 1. I , b h o y w o u 1 d b e s 1. i. cj h b 4 3. 0 III O T f! , 'If they were b :i g 3. boy were 'not. s 1 3 g hi 3. . 5 Q W o 1. 1. , T ' in <i 8 k i. n cj a l) o u 1: w h a 1; y o u oiw, wliab f y ou -7 A . .1 s a w o m e r e a 3 o n e a t hi a t I c. a 3 3 " 3. \i m o v f> . 8 L w o u l d n ' 1; n a i. 1. t, hum " a 3. i. g hi 1; 1; u m o r s . " 9 Q . 0 k a y . And y o u wo u 3 d n ' 3: c h a r a e t e r ,i v, e t hi e I. 0 n f: 1: e c 1'. o 1 1; h o a' e 13 C B ' 8 cj n b h e r a. b l i. v e r s b It ,x 1: y o u 3 :i r e v :i e w o d a n o n 1 y '' n 1 3 g hi t 3 y I-, u m o r i g a n 3 c , 41 w o uId y o u ? 1. 3 A . T . w o u 1. d c a l ). 1: h e m " 1: u m o r i g e n i. c . it 1 3 Q 0 k ay. A r> d y o u w o u 3 d n o 3. m o d 3 f y t hi a 3. w 3 t hi l 4 1; h e 1: o r m " 8 1. t g h 3; , " w o u. 1. d y o u ? 3 9 A . No . 1 fi Q - I '-m sorry? 1 7 A . No . 1 8 0 . Y o it w o \t 3 d rt o b ; 3 a t hi a L c o r r e c 1:. ? 19 A , Mo . 3 0 Q No, you won3 d, or -- 3 1 A . N o , 3! w o u 1. d n o 1;. , 2 3 Q 0 k a y . F 3 n c . 3 j u fi 3. w a n t. t. o g e 3. 3. hi a 3. 2 3 r, 1. o a t; , 2 4 Now, you h a v e b o 3 d in e 3. hi a I. 3. hi e r e 3 r, a 2 9 d (5;! (5 r to!? p o n a e r 1. a I; i. o n h h i. p i n l? C H ' s , c o r v o 1; ?
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I. /V . Y o :3 , i. r . 2 Q. :i want yon to to,1.1 mo at)out the effect;! of 3 n, hi, (jh don I) ol: pen's on man. A A, 1 don't, know t tin t J can. 1 don't know that 5 I'vo a ft e n a case of; a h 1 g h-do a e expoauro to PCR ' n in 6 tri a n . 7 {} . Would you bo able to describe what you have 9 de I;< rm i. uod fr o m i:ho I. i. I:o ra I;u r:e i u cans d by a h i. gh 9 d o e o f: V C H ' a 5 n m an? I 0 A. 'I.'ho o 1 a. s s i. c h i. g h done would bo the Yu oho :) ] P CII e x p o n u ;r o . 1 3 Q . And w h it 1; e f f e c t.;; r o. y u 1 t e d 5 n 11) o n e ft u in a ti n 3 a ;5 a r turn 1 t o fi 1: h o i. r h i g h - d o h o n x posure I; to P C H ' ? A A . T n the period of - - n of. in a d i r e o t shn r t 5 k i. m o , t h e re w a h a g r a d ua 1. <o n :> e 1; o f! s k i. n e haiK.jon in 6 t. f) e y e p e o p 1 ? w i t. h expo fniro . I t w a y n o t c .1 a y a i o I 7 o, h 1. o ra o n o 1 H I aaw the. .... the photography In i. 9 Chi oag o , an d t ha t wa u a 1 o n g t; i in o a g o . ft u 1; 1: h c; u ft 2 0 p e o p 1 e ti a d p a p u .1 o. ft o n t ft e i r f a c. e , T fi o y ti a d a 2 ! s w o I. I ft n P a. c e , 'll 1i e y had put; f;i. noun a. bo ill: 1; h ti eye:? . 2 2 And 1 d 1 d n ' 1. y e c; a i1 y d 5 y c f i a r g e f r o m t h e o y e y , tui t T 2 3 r o m ft in b c; r !:. h o y 1; a 1. k o. d a b o u t i; h o r ft b o i. n g d i s c. h a i. g n 2 A f r o in 1.1) e e y e y . 't t) o v h a d ;; y m p 1. o in y , t> u t t h o y con .1 d n ' 2 5 r e a l l y r e 1. a. f. e 1; hem 1; o anything.
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:i o d
i. Ami bhoro wore -- and an 1 roo.i 1.1.,
7. (. h <*. r <; w a ;; a o m c 1 i v o r e f: f o o t; h u t :i t w a n ' t a
3 s u b :? I:. a n I; i. a I. I. i. v o r e f: f: ft o 1, .
d 0 . Do you r (.'.c. a 1.1 find agree that a h :! g h do no of
3 P C 3 ' c a n r n s u I.I; i. n d 1 g c 1:1 v o d 1I: u r b a n ft, ft :? ?
6 A. If you give the. PCB'fi by mouth, thou 1
7 I: h i. nk y o u ft a n g e I: d 1 g e n I; 1 vo d 1 t u r b a n ft ft s . I f It i. n k
8 3 t ' a g u 3 t e r. o u ?i 3 a t en t w 3 t h 3 t, but the --- 1 don't
9 r n a 1 l y h a v (3 a a g o o (5 u n d o r n h a n <1 i. n g o I: w h o t h r P C. R ' a
1 0 do 3t any more than what Vusho. And beyond that, T
1 t don't know ol: a human exporieno o that I nan cl t ft ho
:i 7. > a y 1h a t y o u g o t G I din t u r b a i) c e .
'
13 Q , Do you b ft liove h h a t --
Id
h. :rf -- 3 f y o u have ,1 3
r\<
w
d ama g o - - now I ' m
L 5 talking about, logic .... 1 F. y o u h a v o u f f 1 o 1 o n 1; 1. i. v o r
1 fy d a m a q (i, y o u c a n h a v e a y m p t o in a t h a t w e w o n 1 d ft a 1 .1
1. 7 "nausea a no r f! x i. a " 1; h a h m a. y o r m a y -- In other* wo r d s ,
1 8 I t 1 a n o t a r p e; c i f 3, c e. f f ft ft t . I t * n a a o c o n d a t y
1 9 o F F ft ft 1; .
7 0 Q. You c. e:r 1. a 3 n .1 y a g r e e t h a t. P C H ' s ft a n ft a u a o
2 L 1. 1 v e c d a. m a g o
2 3 h . Y o a , but. not -- n o t that I k n o w o f t. h a t 3 t
2 3 w o u 1 d c a u u o a v ft* r o 1. i. v o r (j a in a go .
2d Q . Y o u ' r e n o 1. a w a r e o f P CII ' a pons :i b .'1 y c a u a 3 ng
2 8 n ft v (a c c l i. v c r d a m a g c ?
NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
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1 0b
I a . j: k n o w 1: h e o a. r 1 y s 1: u d i i >.s , h h e y 1:. a. 1. k e d a bon h
2 i 1. e a u ;i n g '1 .i V O T d a in a g o , o v r e 1 i vo r d a ma g e , Hu t.
3 1: h o p r o b 1. o m o 1: - o f h. h e c o n 1: a m i. na 1. i. on a nd p ro s e n co
,1 o f n a p h t h a .1 one - a n d n a p h i h a .1 e n e - 1. h c e h .1 o r i n a t. o. d
3 n a p h l, li a 1. e n e s h a. v e a real. s o r i. o u s a d v o r s e o f: f e c t. o n
6 t. h .1 i v e r , and :i h c. a u f; e a c u t. c: .'liver atrophy and
7 w l 1. 1 c a u s e d e a 1; h . A n d h ha. h ' s n o 1:. e 1. o a r h o m e h h a h
B :i t. h a p p e n a w ;i t. h P C H ' s .
9 Q- l s e o . 9 o , y o U h h 1 n k POP ' a c a u s o l i. v c v :i o d a >n a g e ; b u t. y o u ' r ('. n o t. fi u r e t. h a t. t h e y o a n c ;uis e
11. severe enough liver damage ho cause deahh?
1 3 A . I d o n ' t t. h 1. n k t h <3 e x y) o a u r e n h a v e b e e n h i g h
I. 3 o n o u g h -- hhe dourt ha:? been high enough h o m a l< o h h a
1 4 t a k e p .11 a c e -- a t. .1 e a; : t. t c> m y It n o w .1 e d g e , t. h a t. 1 t. h a ;;
I 5 h. o. Ic e n p 1 a. e o .
'} 6 Q. W e ] .1 , m y (ju os! hi on to you :i s whehher you
I. 7
e v o t ha. h
u 1: f: l o tent l y h i. g It e x p o a u r o t o P(! R ' s
J B c, a u h e s e v e r e .1 a v o. r d a in a cj e a n d d e a t. h ?
I. 9 A . No .
2 0 Q You d o b e .1 i o v e 1. Is a t e x p o r: u r e t o P CP's c. a n
2 1. c.uuifi (i h 1 o r a c no r do you not/?
2 2 A. 1 doTs't. know. 1 know t. hat. -- Monsanto had
2 3 an episode In which many - - I. o n g before my hi. mo,
2 A d o w n i n A n n i f.i 1. o n , :i n w h 5 e h h h e y h a d c. h .1 o r a o n e. i n a
2 5 p o p u 1 o. h i. o n t. h .1 I: w a. s m o k i. n g P C H ' s , And a I: h e r h h a h,,
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1 Monsanto di. dn 1: h a v o a n y f u c t h o v cli 1, (3 r; a <: n <3 , 2. A n d w b e. f b o y that was d u o t o a 3 <3 o n h a. m i n a n1 o f t h <3 f> C R ' s o r H O III <3 t h l n g e 1. n o , t h a 1: , 4 d on ' t n n d or s t a n d , but t h o ri: w a :: ;; o hi o. t b i n g n ri i q u rb a b o u f 1h a 1; o n <3 h h a 1; in a. d <-3 i. 1: s (3 t h a. 1; it never 6 hiippened aga.i n 7 And .if yon loo It at man';: exposure to 8 P 0 H ' s , I; h e r e h a s b <3 <3 n a -- - I: h e y I: a 1. k a b o u k 9 c'i 1 beTJ7: of u ra n s a s bo.i ng acan a ti. v e a gen t f o3' I. 0 c h 1. o r a. c n o a. n d n (3 k I: h (3 1? Cl! ' :? . A n d I r. a n ' k e p .1 r a k a
11) o a o. o n t b e o a u e w h e I. ha r d x b e n o f n :r a n b a v e been 1. 2 pros o n t i. n a 1 1 P C R a 0 c n0 t, I c an ' t a n a w (3 r kh a 1: , .1 3 0. Y 0 u ;) \i s t d 0 n ' t k n 0 w w b 0 t h 0 r a .11 of 1. 4 M o n :3 a n k 0 ' s J? C B ' s h a v <3 d i. b () n v 0 f n r a n a i. n t h (3 m or n 0 t; 1 b i t h a t c 0 r r 0 c. t ? 1 6 A . 'I1 ti a t ' s r i. q li f , 1 7 Q 1:1 y tho way, one 0 f t h e t b 1 n g t. b a t h a p p 0 n 0 d i a i n r a s p c3 n a (3 i: o h h i. a p r <3 b 1 (3 m o I: c h 1. 0 r .3. 0 n a 11) a !; y 0 u 1 9 d e s c t i b 0 d i n A i a b a )ii a 1 n the early year a w a a th a t 2 0 M (3 n s a n !'. 0 e. 13 g a. god i n a r i. go ro u 15 p rogra m 10 k ry a n d 2. 1 p ro v 0 n t i tw 0 r k hi 0 n f r 0 m c. 0 m i n cj i n 1.0 r. on!, a. c t w i k b 2. 2 pr: a 1 s d i. d n ' t. i. i. ? 2.3 A . T d. 0 n ' 1. k ri 0 w . 2. 4 Q - V. 0 a ' ).- e n 0 1: a wa r 0 ol: k ha. t? 2. S A . Nr), i r , n 0 v 0 :r t a 1 k 0 d a b 0 \i t. i t .
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1. a v a 1. a can c, a.u o pain i. nthe rot] i.on o i:
I. ho I. Ivor, i. n
4 t h e a b d o m i n a. 1 a :r e a ?
5 A. 1 f you have dam ape. to the liver, you can
6 o a u k o p a. i. n . 1 f i t ' a a c u I: e e n o u g h -- t. t i. t:'s .in
7 acute effect, on the .liver, you can have pain in the
8 a b d o in 1 n a l e a v i. 1; y ,
9 Tint 1 don't, under sit. and how it would be
1. 0 d u e o t li e r w i. s e u n i. e si:? i. I: w a. n b y I; a k i. n g t h o 0 C 8 ' :? b y
1 :i m o u 1. h .
J 2 Q, Do you nmlorstand that exposure to PCI!'s
13 c o u. 1. d r e s u 1 t i. n wo j. g h I: 1 o ts si ?
J 4 A . Any i n t. ox i c a t i o n th a t ' s: s ever e enough has
15 p o t e n t i. a X f: o rc a. u s i n g w ei. g h I: 1 o s s . A u y I; h t n g t h a I:1
J 6 w i 1 1 c. a n si e a n o r e x :i <> , c a 11 e a u y e w e .i g h t 1 O ft fl . t 7 B u I: 1: o :? a y t h , i. 1: P C B ' :? i. n 1: h e m :? e 1 v e :?
j 8 c a u h e w e i g h t 1 o s , T d o n '1 t b e .1 i e v e 1. h a t h a p p e. n si .
1.9 1 t ' s a s e c o n d a r y o l; (; o e I; .
2 0 Q . they causie siome thingelse in the body which
2 1 t lion, i. n l: urn, causes? the w o i. ij h t I. o s?;? ?
2 2 A. T don't, know whether' it happens? or nest., but.
2 3 I; 1? n ' a I; h e w a y T w o u I. d h a v e i:. o o x p l a i. n i. I; ,
2. <1 Q . Tb e w e i g h t. 1 o si si i a y m p t. o mat t i c o f a no 1. b e r
2 5 p v o b 1. e m ?
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l. A. Yon. And if: -- again, i. f: you have ?. :s xi f f i o 1 e n t i :i v e r (1 a. )n a g e , t h a t w o u 1. d t a k fa p .'I a c*. e . B U 1 3 without-, liver do mo. go, then 1 have d i. t I: i. u u I t y a. y 1 n u 4 w h a t.w o xt .1 d c a u r; a tig j t . 5 Q , 1 oe . f. A. I don't, thank :it h a p p e n a without liver 7 d a. m a g e , u n I. e i? I I;'s b y m o u t: h a n d e o nI: 1 n u i. n g h I g h B o. x p os u r e a a o t h a t5 t .i n I-, e 3-f e r e a a n d r. a u a e a 9 a u I: I:i. o 1 e n t 1 r r 1 I', a. h 1 o n o f: t ho G1 t r a. e t; a o 1 h w o u 1. d :i o h a p p a n 0 u t a i d (a o f t h a t , T don't boll e v e 1 t i i. h a p p e n . 1 2 Q Do yon have an o p t n 1 o n a s t. o t h e 3 1 t. X) 3 o f 13 c a, n c r i. f: l? C R ' a , L n I: a c 1; , w 1 11 e a u n o c a ii c r ? J 4 h . Pa r d on ? i r> Q D o y o xi 1) a v c; a n op i n a on a it t o 1. h ox K i t U 3 I 6 A , You ineo. n, who rn .... 1 7 Q . Yon, 1. B A . - - t h e 1 o o a t i. o n o 1: i. 1: ? :i 9 Q Yon. If kCH's c a xi s e c. a n a e r . 2, 0 A . 1 t w i. 1. 1. o n l y u a u n (3 i. 1; <a n e p 1. a e e ,, T h .11 2 J t h oi 1 i v e r 3. 2 Q A n d h o w d o y o u know that.? 2 3 A , Bo c a, u n o i. 1; ' n n o 1'. a n i. ix i t a. .a, h o v 2 '1 fi W h a 1. 1 ri a t, t ti o n? 2 3 A . 1 k ' n -- 1; h e o n 1. y ...- well, yo u c a. n ' 1: g o v v y
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I I: a v . 'I.1 h o k n o w 1. o d <j e w o u 3. d 15 u g <j o s I', a, n d I; In'; g e o p I. c 2 t. a 3 1< a b o u 1. 3 1 b e 3 n g a p r o hi o t e r . .3 Q. Wha. I; i. n a. " p r o ill o h o r " ? A A . A " p r 0 in n 1. 0 r " 3 ri a. g 0 n 3. t b a 3. a c: 1. h on an 5 L n i. t, i. a. 3; e d e 0 1. 1. 1; 0 c a u a e cl e am: 0 r , A 11 d i I: 3: ' - 1; h e 6 r e a son w e ' r c: c; a y 3 n g t h 3 f? 5 a 3. f 3. 3. 0 n .1 y 3i a j) p e n a -- 7 a n <3 all. t h e l: h j. n g ;5 wo've boon d o s c r i. b 3. n g 3, s y 0 u a d 0 n '3. see cancer u n 3.3 3 you Cj 01 a e v c> r e liver- d a in a g e: . 9 W i. 1: h 011 t: t: h e L i. v 0 r d a in a. g 0 , i. 1: ' ;5 n 0 1; a. c ore inogun, by 1 0 n 0 H3.Tcd.cdi of Idie 3 in a g 3 ti a t 3 on . 1. L A n d I; h n o n 1. y p 1- a. o <3 you ' r o q o i. n g l; o a e o 3 2 t. h o c a n o e r 3 1; q o 3u g t. o b e 3 ti t. h e 1 3 v e r . 1 3 Q . You've v e r y 00 r I; a i. 11 a. b o u I: t h a I; ? .1 (\ A . 3 wo 113 d i)'t v. q u 3 v o c a t e o n 't. b a t . 1. 3 Q . Y o u w o u I. d e < ( u i. v o 0 a I; e on w h (3 I; h e r o r n o I: i. I:. 1 f> w o u 3 (3 c a u r: 0; t h c 3 3 v e r c a a 0 e r ? I. 7 A . r. -- wo 'v o tj o n e h h r o u g h I: h a t i. n I; o r m 3 of: j a the 3 riterprotabi on of that and whether 3 3. -- 3f 3 t. 1.9 d o e 3 mi d e v a o m o e i. r e u in s I: a n 0. o 0 t: h a I; w e h a. v e n 1 I: bee n 2 0 able to describe, we're talking abo\rk 3t being 2 I. second. I: o l:he l ivo r (l<i.in,igc . And I couldn ' I; :?ay I 2 2 would lie inugirl stul, lull. 3. lie da 3. a to date doesn't say 2 3 t: h a t; i. t (3 o o s I:. o in e , 2 '1 Q , T) 3 dy o u e v e r g 3 v e an y c. o n a 3 d e :i" a 3.3o n t. o3.3i c; 2 5 e a r 3. y I. 9 7 0 a I: u <1 J. e a l) y 0 r . SC 3. m l) r o u g h o n P C H ' n ?
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A, I don' 1. know what; you moan by ') " o o n ad e r a t 3 o n . " 3 0.. Wol) , the; studios! that Dr. Kimbrough did on 4 I? C R ' :? 1 n w h 1 o h ;5 h o o. o n o I. u d <3 d I; h o y o a u ;? o d 1. i. v o r b c a n e. e r w o r e ti o t h e r f i r:: t c h r o n i c t o x.ic.i t y s t u cl i e s 6 o n 1? C 8 ' ;? , w (3 r o 1. h e y ? 7 A. I have; to go - - T ' in doing this by in om or y 8 b o o a u s o I h a v e n ' I: r o v i e w o (j a l 1. t hi.*?. 9 My impression i r, that, a he. had done i. n a o m e I; h i. n g b e f: o r e , a. n d 1. h o r o w a;? a d 1 j? c u s? j? t o n :i j a b o u t - - f! o m e t h 1 n g a bon t b 1 a d d e i- t u in o r a t h a t she w a s I. 2 worried about; , And the other tiling i:? that there i .1 3 a - - she talked about there being hyperplasia in the 1.4 hi adder a:? associated with it, and I don't know :! 9) w h a t -- and, a o , i f .{ 1 v e g o t. hypo r p .1 a s i a i n t. h e I. 6 t u in o r , o n I; i r e !. y p o ;?s i. b 1 e t hose we r e a >? i in i. 1. a r J 7 r e a c 1. i o n . 1 8 Hut 1 can't -- 1 can't go beyond what 19 Y. ' v e a a i d b e o a ti;? o a 1 l t h i.:? i.:? ..... i. i? r e c a l i . 2 0 Q , Wo .1 .i , t ti a t ' a a 1 o o a t3 o n . My oti .1 y p o 3 n t 3 s 2 L I: h e b 1. a d d e v i. a n o I; the I. i. v o. r , i. a i. t ? 2 2 A , No, 3. :r . 2 3 Q. And tier early work dealt with prob 1 em s 2 4 c a u t? e db y l? C 8 ' ;s i. n t h o b I. a d d. e r , d i. d n ' t i. I; ? 2 9 A. Hut. u h o. didn't confirm that in the second
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i. f> t u d y , w h i. c h s ay 17 i. n e v (5r y c. <i. n c <-: r: l;udy that's
2 d onfl - - 3' w a. a 07) 3.3i o ft 3 (7 a r 3 'n (J 3t on :: o < o r ft a r c 3 n o g o. n f; 3 of h h o Ca n o r j: n s t i L u 1:. e ,
4 Wh e n you f 3 n d a 1. u m o r a n d you 1 r (7
`5 trying to d <7 (7 i. d. <7 i. s i. 1: d <7 s <7 V <7 1 a 1:. <7 d o r r (7 1. a. 1; e d 1: (7
6 i. h a 3. , y o u ' V (.7 q o t a p r o 3) 3 e m of d e o 3 d 3 n g w 3i e 13i C7 r 3.3i a t.
7 a n .1 m a 1 W O U 1. d. (J (7 t t h O 3 (7 t U III O r 13 3. T7 t h (7 1: i. r s 1- p 1. a c e .
8 A rid 3 f .i t. g e t. s' 3 3. i n t. 3i e f 3 x- a t p-liicd, now y o u ' ve got
9 to is a. y i. ;-3 what in o r (7 t Id a vi W O U 1 d be expectoi 1. i\ n d
:i o y o u ' v e g o t t. tie p j" o 3) 3 c: hi o f <3 e ci 3 d.ing w3iei. 3)0 3 3 3. w a fi
1.1. r n L a. l; e d t o I'. h a t c on I', r o 3. q r <3 u p , a. n d t lion you 1 v e g o 1'.
3 3 the problem of a .3 .3 the h 3 fi t o r 3 c a 3 group to worry
1.3 .3. b o u I; .
3 /I A Tt d t h e Tt, a f t a r t h a t., 3. h e. 7> y o u 1 v e g o t.
1 B t: o d e o i. d e w h e I: her i L w a .? o I. o v a t n d s t a I: i. s t i, o a .1. 1. y .
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w o. M fi t a 3.3 s 1:3 ft a lJy, then
1.7 y o u ' v o q o h 1:. o q o t o t: h e next done 1. (7 V 17 1. .7 n d d (7 ft 3. d o
3. 8 w 3\ e t 3i a r t. h a t ' a u t. a l. 3 fi t .3 c: a J .1 y re .1 a t e d . A fi d t h e fi y o u
1.9 s a. y l. t. ' id .... w e w o u 1. d. a a y 3. t, ' fi con s 3. h t e n t w i. (; h 3d (7 3. n g
3 0 a c are .3 nog on ,
3 3. A n d 3.3i a 3. i; 3.3 .1 3 d o e fi n ' 1. e fi 3. a 3> j 3 <! 3i
3 3 w h e then i. I; i. :> or not.
3 3 Q . 3 3. ' i: 1. h a t. r. o hi p 1 ex c. 3ia3n of a 11 a .1 y a 3 d 13i a 3.
3 4 1. (7 a d j.) e o p 1. e t o h a, v e reason a b I <7 d i. u a. tj v e e m e n h s a b (7 u t
3 f> w 3i e 13) c; r P 0 H ' i; e a u ;; e e a n c <7 r , 3 s n ' t. 3 t ?
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l h , h a. I: i. s (A <1 i f: l: e v e n I; st o r y t h a n I: a I. k i. n g
7. a b o \i t t h e. pr o g r e s 5 oti f r oni t.hi e h y p er pi a a t :i a n o d u .1 a n
3 I: o cancel.'; bul; there i. no q u to I-, ton a bout I: h e only
71 reason that you get. cancer in the rat. 3 a b a c a u a o
3 wo'vo (jo I; snviini <i a m a g e to the .liver, and whi. ch
6 we'v e fi e e n si o in u e h ,i n a .1 e o hi o 3 a ti d o t h c r c hi 3 o r ,i n a t e d
7 hyrtrocarhons that do exactly the same thing.
fl S o , t. hi e s n b a t a nee of w hi a t w o ' r e a a y i n g
9
1 s n o tI: h e u e V C 13 ' s t ml 1 e s .
i; t 1 s c o n s 1 a t o. n I; wit h
J 0 what we know about, liver damage and what cannon it,
J. I. 0. . My g uc's t, i. <5 n i. s ; Th l s 1 i n e o f: 1 og i. c --
.1 3 7s . V e a , a i a" .
1 3 Q. -- that you just announced, about all the
1 4 t h 1 n g s one has to do b <7 f! o r (7 y o u ' d b e h a. t i. a f i. e d o n
J b w hi a t c a u m fi d 1 t , 1 a n o t a 1 :i n e o f .1 o g 3 c 1. hi a t a 1 ;i I. 6 o 1: h e r s c 1 e n t i. s 1::? a. (j r o o (An, i s i. h o
1 7 A , H v e r y t h 1 n g 1 t; a 1 d o r ..... o r how ..... whi a i. par
i n o f. t. h L s a ve we qitns t. i. (An i. n (j ?
1 9 Q Y o vi hi a d a n e x t e n d e d d i it o U a a Ion w hi y y o u d :i d 7.(1 n o t b e 1. i. e v e K 1 in h) t` o u g li ' s vi o v k o n b ladder cancer
7. .1 c o n f i r m e fl a n v t. h 1 n g .
3 3 A. . Y o s ,
3 3 Q- 7s n d w hi a 1. 1. ' in a fi 1< :i n g y o n 7 fi : .1 ii 7i ' t 1 t t r n e 3 4 that not a 1. 1 s c 1 e n t i.:? t H a. g r e e w i. t h your: conclu s i o n
3 b a bou t whi y otic has to d .7 K c O U 7) t ! 1. mi i f; fi f> f t. hi a t t y p e 7
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I. A . 3 I; b h o y din a g r e o w i I; h 1:1) a I: , t h o n T d o n ' r. 2 1'. h 3 Ti k 1. h o y ' 'r o i <' n k .i l. n . 3 Q, Okay, Anybody who d i. ag r o o n w i. I; h I;h >\ t, 3 -j u ;; I. t e n I 1 y - b A . T h a 1. ' :: n o 1. - - 3. h a I; ' <; n o 1. q u a r r e .1 ;i n q w .3. 1 h <3 inn ,T'm l:o. 1. ki. ng about: thn procnduru by I: h e Cono or 7 J n f?t .i tu 1. o a n d n a 13 o n a .1 t o x 5 c o ] o <j 5 c a .1 p r o g r a m , B Q , l n o. o . w i t li r o g o r d I: o1? C B ' n c o u n .1 n g a k l n 9 c: r up t 3 o ti , you a g r o o w .3. t. h t b a t ? 1. 0 A. K think: i. I: ' ;s -- 3 haven't noon any; but my :i j ,i inp r e a a3 o n 3 , y o a , 3 t d o e a c: a u a <: d orun a 13 13 a . 1 2 Q , 3 w o 1. I.3. n g o t I: h o o y e 1. i d n ? :i 3 A . I don' t k h 3 n k a o - - w e .1 .1 , 3 d o n ' t. t. b .3 ri k 1.4 h h a t ' u a p r t o f: o h 1. o r acnn . 3 1:'s - - i t: y o u g o 1: a. n y J h c h o in 3 r. a 1 a r o un d 1: h e o y e a , 3 3. can can a e. a w o .1 .1 3 n g o f 1. 6 t; h o e y o L i. d. a . B o. t I d o n ' 1: b e .11. i o v e i. t ha p p o n a t r o m 1 7 a y i. o in 3 o o x j) o a u r n , i. n Q D i a 1: o r h i. o n o f: 1: h o n k i. n a u r f: a, n o ? :) 9 A . D 3 fit. or 3.3 on of the? .... 2 0 Q. Y o u . 2 :i A . T d o n ` 1. k n o w w h a 3. that III o a n n , 3 2 0.. (' i. n cj n r n a. i. 1 d i. n t: o r I: !. o n ? 2 3 A . 1 d o n ' 1 J< now w )i a 1. 1. b a 1. in O a ti <i , 3 4 Q . i: a o o , B 1. a o k o n i. n g o t t h e f: i ihjii r n a. L 1. a ? 2 b A ,, T h o c. .1 o ri e s i: 'thing 3. h a. 3. :t w o u .1 d t ft 3 n k 3. h a 3.
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L would be re La led to I; hi. u would be Y u s h o, In which 3. t. h <?. r e w a a p .1 cj in o o t. a t. ion. A n d p :i g in c: ti l a t. i o ti A p a r 1 of 3 1: h oi ohlor.ione syndrome. And w i.thout t he 3 p ;i cj in e n t. a 1 .i o n -- w A l h o n l t. h o o h .1 o r a o n o , w.i lh o u 1. 1 h o 3 s u I: II i. c i e n t s k l nr o a c t Ion, i: d o n ' l. A h 1 n k t h e r e ' a' 6 p :i g m e n A. a l. A o ti . Jd o n 1 t. t. h A. n k t. Li o p :i qm e n A. a A. :i on o f - 7 1s r e L a t e d t; oJ? 0B ' s i. n I; It o a b s e n c e itI: o It 1. o r a, c n e, 8 w h :i e h , a q a A ti , t. a .1 k a b cui +. a ] oca .1 e f f e c A;, c o n +. A n u A n g 9 o t: f o c b . A it d I s A. i. l L q o l: l. It e p r o b 1 e in 1 0 Ai a p pen e d w.i A.h o u A. A. Ai e d A b c n / o f ti r a n a . I. I, Q . F l n (j c: r n a i. A s l h1: I: u r it l n w a v d J 3 A , Mo . 1. 3 Q. {,o :jn of: f: a c i. a 1. h a i. r ? :i -1 A . NO . I. 5 0. boss of head It a A r? 1 6 A . No . i 7 Q - boss oil b o d y h a i. c ? J 8 A . M o . A y a na A. Lor of fact., th 1.9 oh a t: a. o l: e r i.s 1: l c o l: oh lot: a. one Is hyper 3 0 h y p e :r A. r A c. h o s i a . I A. ' a j u ,c: A. t Ai e o p p o s A A. v. . And, plus, 3 I l It e re ' s -- t:h e r e ' y n o o h e m i. c n l I; h a. I:. I k n o w o f: I; h a I:. 3. 8 w i 1. .1 produce Jo:::-; of h a A r .TAiere'n ... A-, he gland, 8. 3 A, It s o. b a e e o u ;-i q I ,i. it d , I; It a t. ' y i. n v o l v o d L n r. h I. o r a c. n e , 8. '1 yo\ican have oco.luuAon of A. hat.nebaceounqland by 8 S a n y I: li i. ng , by o i. L .
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I. The poop 1 ft who do m i 1. 1. i. ng t7 po n a L i o n 1$
2 and th o o 3 3 3 :'! IHIOfl 1.0 o o o 3, 1h a 3. do w ti, 3f they g e t
3 i. I: o n 1; h o i. r s k i. ii and 1:. h o y g ex 1: 3. h., I; h o y w 3. 1 1. go t a. n
4 a o 11 e ] ft f! 3 0 7) t h a t. 3 a n o t c. 3i 3 o r a o n e . And 3 f you 3i a v c
3 s u 1: f: i. c i. e n 1; a. e n a , y o u c an iMiinfi at v n p h y o 1: t. h e h a i. r
6 IX w o .1 .1 . Pint 3 t ' 7! ! C! o ondary to t 3i e 3 n v o 3 v c:m on t of
7 t ho p i 1. <3 s n b a o ft mm g 1 a n d ,
0 G e Ti e. r a .1 3 x e d <; k 3 n r a a 3i ? 9 A - I! 1: h L n k 1', h a 1: w L1: h (j v o :3:3 ft, x p o :3 u t: <5 l; o a J 0 v ,i a c o u s hi a t ft r 3 a 3 3 3 k e P G B ' n o a n o a u s ft a d. ft rut at. 3 13 c*
I I. 0, . D i. (! f 1 o u 1. I-, y in b t; o. a. 1: h i. n g b (3 c a u s e o (; s w o 1. 1. i. n g 1 3. o f t. h e n a fi a .'1 13 a a \i o a V
L 3 A , i: I: a man luii RXpO 13 U V ft t O :3 u l; 1: i. ft i o n t. P C R ' s
J. 4 b y ,i n hi a 3 a 13 o n , .3 t c a n r e ' u 3 t. 3 n it w ft 3 J 3 n g o f 1. h c
I. 9 n a. i3 a. 1. m u c o :3 a b o c a u a i 1: ' :3 a n i. r r i t a nt , And if i h I 6 d 3 a - - 1 ' in to 3 3 3 ng you w h a 1. I t. 3i 3 Ti k c: o u .1 d h 7i p ji ft 7) ......
1.7 r a 1; h <7 r - - Wild 1: I 'm 1: o. 1. 1. i. ng you now 1:3 based on in y
:l R u n d e r s t a n d 3 n g of PCH's b o c a u s (>. 3 ti a v o n 1 t. fi ee7i 7i n y o i
I. 9 1: h i. s , n o r - * n o r h a s m o s i. p o o p J. o i. n Monsanto, i n
2.0 I! p 3 t. o o n r h a v 3 n g m a d o 1.3i 3 ri in a 1. (i )' 3 a 3 for 30 y c-: a r s .
2. I. R u 1: o u r d O S (7 I. ft V (7 1. 13 i. s w Ii a I: w ft ' r ft.
2 2 t a :i k ,i n g a bo u 1. ,
23
0.
>' :i g in o. n 1. a t 3 o n , y o u T d a g r o e t h a l PCM
ra n
2 4 (Mil 17 ft .7 ft. h a. n (j o i. n p 3 g m o n I: a I; i. o n ?
?.S ft . '( T 1. h e 7" (; ' s o h .1 o 3- a one .
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i. Q , I) a r k on i. n g o I" I; h e u k i. n ?
2 A , Yer .
3 {) . And if tlio.ro. i f! no ohl orao.no, do you think
4 I U 1. d b o a g e n e. r a 1. i. x e d
b A . :i r t. h e r e :i fi .... i f t
6 n u 1: f: i. c 1 o n t .7 m oim h s ,
7 is.
8 If 1. h e r e ' b n o e h .1 o :r 9 o f: !; h e e y e 11. i. d a ?
J 0 ;i f 1. h e :r o wa .... iiff there was PCH ' a in
I. I w i 1. h l:h e e y fa 1 i. d ; b U L
1 2 t e in p o 7' a r y , n o t. p e r in a n e n t ,
'
I. 3 Q. XI: Lire re were no chloracne, would there be
.1 4 d i f f .i c u 1 t y i n b :r e a t. h i n g ?
lb A . 1? C n 1 :! a r e 1. r r 1 1: a n h s? . And one of the thing
J 6 t h a t. k o e r> p e o p .1 e f. t o m h a v 1 ti g ex c e j: a 5. v e e x p o n u r e u o
17 t h a 1: o ecu p a 1: i. o n a. 1. e x p o :-i u r e i. h n ' l: more than 1 t i.;? 1 u
3 8 b e c a u n or i t ' r i rr i ta ti rig . A n c'l a m an w 5 3 .1 w a .1 k a w a y
1.9 1: r o in i. 1: w he n i. L go 1: s out. B u t :i. 1: h e t? 1: a y e d a. r o u n d ,
2 0 i t. c. o u .1 d c a u h e j' w o .1 1 i n g o f t h e e y e11d r, can c a u rs e
2 1 s w o 1 1. 1 n g o 1: t h e n o u e .
2 2 Q Wit ho u t any e h 3 o r a c n e ? 2 3 A . W i. t h o u L. a. n y oh 1 o r a c n e ,
2 4 Q What, about change i! 1 n p i g in e n t. a 1.1 o n w i t h o n t. 2 9 r. Ii l o r .r e n e ?
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1 A . r don't t h i. n k s o . 2 () . What a b o n I; d a r k on 3 n g a f t h e y k .3 ri w i t.h out. 3 e h 1 o rao ne ? 4 A . 1 don't t. h 3 Ti k s o . 5 Q . T :5 i. h you r o p i. n 1. o n I: h a I: I'CH ' :5c o u 1. d p r o m o 1; o 6 a i) y t y p e o f: c a n c, e r o t h e r t h a n 3 3 v e r c a n a e. r ? 7 A . Wo, b i.r . f) Q. And is that opinion based on any work done 9 t o d.e I; e rin i n o wha. t; t y pe o !: ca n eors are pro mo I:fid by t 0 PC]) ' S ? 3 1 A . You see, t h e ..... t h ere h a d t o b -- when we 1 2 talk about alcohol causing I. i. v o r damage and causing 3 3 t li e s e s e c. o ti d a r y t li 5 n g a , 3 t ' s t h e a a m e t h 3 n g . Th e 14 place where in occupational exposure, as well as 3 3 3 ti the PCI) studies at NCI or at I HT .... I'm .leaving I. 6 out l NT because off the question -- is that the liver 3 7 d a m a g e 3 a t h e t h 3 n g i. h a t m a ]< e a P C H ' a a c a r e 3n o g e n . I. 8 A n d w e t a 1. k a b o u t i. t b e i. n g i n a n o I: h e r 1 9 p .1 a e e , 3 s t. here ' a n o t h .3 n g a u g g o a t w e ' v e g o t 3 t. 3 n 2 0 o I: h e r p l a c e s . 2 :i Q , W e .1 .1 , a t. u d. .3 e s o f P C H ' s in r a t s h a. v e s h a w n 2 2 re ts that dovti lop humors in other locations, have 2 3 t li e y n o t ? ?A A . When t he y 'r e e x p o ae d to P C B ' a? 2 5 0 . V. e s .
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A. 0 1; cmiriirt, bf!C a u;?o I; h ti y ' v fi got I; hose h :i a 1 o r :i r. a .1 .'I y .
Q . II o 1. y o n d o ti ' t t h .i n): t h e r e' a n y a i g ti i f i o a n' relationship be l;w(>C!n the 1; amors developed i. n pi. .ices other than the 11 vox- and PCH's? 6 A . I hav e n ' I; s e e n a n y p l a c o w h e ro i h ' s 7 s? u g g e rt e d t h a t t h o r e w a s a r e .1 a t ;i o n s h 5 p , n Q . Includ i. n g Dr, K .1 m b r o u g h ' s w o r k on I; h e 9 b .1 a d d e r- ? 1.1) A . Yes . 11 Q - That rs u g g c- i t. o d i t , d .i d n ' t ;i t ? 1. 2 A , W e 1. 1. , b u t t h -.1 I; w a s n ' t d o n e s 1: ? t i. s t i. e1. 1. y 1 3 ho, y o n c. a ti 1 t. t e .11 whether that was in e x e e a a o f 14 w h a I: c, o u 1. d b e e x p e o I; o d.; o r .1 (: w e d i. d a t h o u s a. n d l b a t u d i e a f vi on.Id that h a p pen b y e. h a n r. e . lb 0 Do you reea 1. 1. t h a. lx Dr. P o o r s p e o i. f: i. o a 1 l y .1 7 c. o in m e T) t e d on f i r) (1 i n (j O 1. h f.i' t u in o r s l) e ! ;i d e a ] .i ver IB t U III o V S i. n t h e r e v i. e w ll o d 1 d 1: o r y o u o 1: P c. n s t u d i. e s ? J 9 h N o r T d o n ' t r e c: a .1 1 . 7.0 Q i s o e , H o w s over o a w o i. g h h l o S o ca n be 2 .1 c. a xi s e d b y problems r e r, \i 1 t i n g f r o m J-' C b e x p o n u r e ? 7 7. A i: have said I! d o n ' t 1: h i nk t h a t w o i. g li t: 1. o s a 2 ;i;-; a part of PCU i n t o x .i c a 1. i o n , :i 've said :i f there 2A is s u. t: p i. e i. e n I; da in a tie ho him 1 i ver h hat there may bo ?!> a si u b > e q u e ri t. o r a s e c. o ti d ary w c 5 g h t .1 o s s , b u t 1 d o n ' t.
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1 I: h i. n Ic L I; ' o I; h <5 r It h a n I; h a. t ,
2 Q . A T) d h o w s e v e r o c a n t h a t w e 1 g h 1. ] o s s be?
2 A . T. I: I: h o r o i s s e v e r e 1. i. v o r d a m a g it, t h e r e e a n
f\ be 1 os of appetite; and it c. an re.Hn.lt in severe
8 wet g h I; l. o x , i. I: h h e r e i. s s e v e r o I. i. v v d a m a. g e .
6 W i t it o u t s e v e :r e 1 i v e r d a m a g e , T d o n ' t t it .i n h t it a 1. w i1 .
7 0ocu r .
8 Q . 1 w a n t t. o show y o u fa p h o t o g r a p it of an
9 1 n d i. v j. d u a. I. a n d a s k w It e I:he r y o u b it 1. i. e v e - - y o u in i. q it t:
1 0 hold that up where th e camera can see what you're:
I. I. l o o k 1 n q a I: It h a r e - -
3 2 A . 8 ti t e. ,
13 Q . - - whet it er y otib e ] .i eve t It a t wct .i g it t .1 o s s
14 t It a I; s e v e r e c o u I. d res u 1l: s it e o tt d a. r i. 1 y I: r o in e x p o s u rtt
3 9 to PC!H's attd the results of it.
1 6 A . T It hi. nk - - it h i. :3 i. :3 a C 1. i It i. c a l
J 7 i n i. orpre t a tio n b a s ct d o n one 1 s pilot. o g :r a p it , 'i'll 1 s
1.8 m a it ' S3 x it v i. o u x 1. y 1 1. 1 .
3 9 Q No quest i on a it o tt t. t hat.
?.o A . H e ' s g o 1: :3 0 til O o It It e c -- h ' s go h a, d i. s o a x o
?, 3 t h a t ' s cj o n o g o 1 n g O I) h i. in . A n d t ii ct w e 1 g h t. i o s s
?, 3 w o u 1. d n ' 1. b o. f! c o m F C R '
1 1: ' x f r o m It h e d i. x e a s o h it ' st
2 3 g o t A n d w h e t. h e r tha t d i s e a s e ii e ' s go t - a n d .1 2 4 d o n ' I; Ic it o w wit a t i. It L s - Tills in.ni 3. x chron i. c a 1 I y t. 1 1. 2 b a 11 d it e ' s n o t - 1 t. i s n 1 t - - ft n d ii e ' s got a c. ii roni c
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d i. 3 o a s? o . A n (i. c h r o n i e d i. a o a n e s I d o n ' I: I; h i. ii k a r o
?. r <! .1 a t. e d t. o rCH ' it u n .1 e n i t ' s on .1 .i v er d ama <j e. t. hi a1.
3 hoc o in o s? p e r in a n o n I; .
<1 Q . Bo, :i f t. h v. remi] t or 1, he. primary can no of
L> t h w e l g h l I o i? ;j i. i5 s o in o I', h i ti g I: h a I: ' :5 v e l a I; e d I; o
6 PC!H ' s; , them the; PCfl's would have; an of'foct on the
7 w o i. ij h t 1. o a s .... i s t h a t w h a t y u ' r e say i. n g ? .... a n d i t:
8 i t's n o t, t h o n t. h e r e w o u .1 d b e no r a 1 a 11 o n a h ;i p ?
9 A , If i. tw a ;j r e 1. a, I; o d t o t li e 1. 1 v e r d a m a go, t h o n
5 0 it (iou.1 d bo 'b. ho c.au no. of bin -- .if, in foot, his
1. I J. i. v e r da ma go -- one of tho common things that
j 2 happens in man in a man can have. r..i rrhou ,i s and look
t 3 ! i. k o t h i. s ,
:i i And the question, then, in what canned
t h i ;i o i, r r h o 3 1 s . And I: li o g u e 3 t Ion who I: h e r o i it Ii o;? L 3
:i (\ could be canned by PCJl i ;i one of the. questions.
17
And, tomy know.bodge, i. t ha. 3 n't happened
to date,
] B Q. 1 see. Let me ask you about --
1. 9 A . A r e w e I: h r o u g h w i. h h t h i 3 ?
20
Q.
Y e s . Vou m i g h t w a n t t c; } u s t s e tt. li a t
r i q li t
2 t over I. h e r e .
2 2. A . ( W i t n e s c o m p .1 i e s )
2 3 Q. Lot mo auk you .about.
?A A . 1 c a m o a p a r l. .
2 f5 Q . O Ii , I ' m 3 o r r y . W o 1. 1 , 1 o I; 's g o t y o u b .a c k
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1. t o q e 1. he; r lie; r<;, you're-; neit the; ); i vs t who <;vo. r .....
?. w b o * s e v e r h < i d that jirobl can , Jus t. P T e S S' O T) 1 t , <1 ncl
3 i. 1. w 1 1. 1. s n a. p i. n .
A A . (W1 t ti c; s c o m p 1 1 e s )
b Q , 0 n e; o t t!u; ways to do cum o n i; e x p o s u r e t o
h )'cn 1 s would bo b y a a in p 1 1 ti g b o dy t .1 s ri u o it t o d e t e r in 1 ti o;
7 t h a c o neont rat i. e; n s i. n t h o m ; isn't 1: h .a 1; c o r r e o t?
8 A M V P t o b 1 o m 1 " t .1 a s u c; s " b e c a ii a e t. h e f :i r s t 9 tissue; that we; ' v e; s a m p 1. e d , 1; hat ' s o n o t i. s s u e , 1. s t !i e;
1 0 b 1 o od
i :i
a . 01< a y . Is that
.is sampling the blood ono
I. 2. w a y - -
1 3 A . Yes .
:i a Q , - - t o d ocuinen t oxposur e t. o P C H ' a ? 1. b A . We; 1. 1 y o s , A n d 11\ o r e ' s a. p r o b 1. o in o n t. his,
1 f) t h a t t h c; r e i a a h a .1 f 1 :i f o o f . t h e; P C H ' a 1 n t h c; body
1. 7 s o t h i t t h <; 1. r u o r o 1 a t i. o n s Ii i p o I: P C R ' i. n 1. h e. b 1 o o d
:i b t o t. h ft 1 vi:.l of o x p o <j u r e .1 : n ' t c. 1 o a r .
I. 9 Q. bet: mo see i t I undiM's hdiui wha I: you 'ro
7.0 saying (.here. It ;i f.i possible, i f. wo sample the
7 I. blood a, long e n o u j !\ di :! I'.onr.ft away t: rom I; h o e x p o s u r o ,
2 2. we; may f 1 ml very 1 :i 1.1.1 e there; b <; o a u n o of the
2 ?, h a I I: - .1. i. I: e o v e v whir, h i I; d i. s a p p e a rs lirom I; ho body?
2A
A,
There;
a lot we; don't know about this.
PCH's in I; lit; blood a r o re I. a tod to exposure; to
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P C B ' j-5 . 'l.' h o a b 55 o I. u I: o 1 e v o I 1 s d o p o n d e n t o n o t h o v
2 f a o t o rr 1 Li a n j u <: t e >: p o s u :r e . A n cl 1 I. h a r a o in o t. h i n g t o
3 do w i. I; h whobher the hlsmio h o I d s lb and pubs lb obi:
<1
:i n the fat and
arid, so, :i 1. act.<4 like a sump,
Li where lb can bo put. in there and nob do a. ny thing.
6 A n d w h c t h e r t h a t 5 a a r e a u.1 l. o f e x p o a u r e - - e x p o s; u r c
7 b u b I; b o o x p o :s u r e p u b t i. n g 1 b b h o r o , 1 b i. b b r u I. y
8 a c. o u in u .1 a t o s; w :i t. b a g e., w h i c b c o in o p e o p .1 e say , j t. ' h
9 in o r e b h a n j u s t. o x p o u r o I: h a I; d o b e r in t n o h b, h a t .
1 0 Q . My cj u -> h t. :i o n to you in: J f w o f 5 ri cl P C B ' r> i n 1. !. h h o b 1. o o d f w e have -- we know wo have exposure bo
1 2 PCI) ' f! , cl o W C i) o t. ?
1.3 A . V < 5:3 , s 1 r ,
1 4 Q . T h a t. ' <i proof that .it's gotten .into the l fii b o d y , by w h n. b o v a c r <5 u b e , c o r r e c b > 1 6 A . Y r-'. , 3 i r ,
1 7 Q. A ti cl b o c a u c o f 1. Li i > Li a .1 f - .1 i f a pr o Li 1 (> in y o u I.B d o s c r :i. b o , b h e love 1. -- and other o o n :31 do. r.3. b i. on s , t h e
1 9 1 c v e .1 that yon f ,i rid :i n the 1) 1 ood may n o 1. L) e t r u 1 y
2.0 r o 1: 1. o c b i. v e o f: blic? extent of: expo :3 u r co , c o ,r r e o 1; ?
2,:l A . 1 d o ri ' t. k n o w . I -
2 2 Q . You ' r e junk not; sure?
2 3 A . T cl C) n ' b t Li .i ri 1c 1. h e (i a b a i a t Li c r e , Th e - -
2 4 the highe r 1. ho o x p o S3 u r e - - w e k n o w w h a b, I; h o 1 o v e 1. i. S3
2 b i n t Li e cj e. n e :r a .1 e n v :i x-on m c ri t. . A nd i n t. h a t no r m a .1
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range, if: youra is l:w Lch .is high asm i. n n in Mini normal range;,, wheal, her that r r; f .1 c; c. 1s your e.xpofl u:rc 3 b <; i n(j t w i. c o a.s h i. g h n ;; m i. n o, h as n ' t bo o n A e; j: tab .1 :i s h ed .
r Now .... but at the; name; time;, the; man
6 who has occupational exposure, h i. s will. 1) e higher, 7 s u b s t a n t i a ] .1 y h i g h e; r , a n d wi 1 .1 r c; f ] c c*. t. h 1 s 5 n c. r c: a s e; <1 8 <expo s lire . 9 o , 1; h o v a r i. a. b j. 11 h y w .11 h i n e a c h o n o o t 9 th ofic; ranges .is part of it we; - ~ we; don't .... I don't. t 0 t h in k VI G u n dor s ton d . 1J 0. W b a t i a the; normal range;? 1. 2 A - i; a m n o b a n o x p o r 1; o n t his, b h t; i. 1; ' It " ;) 3 i t. ' a - - m y g c ; n e; r a 1 r \i 1 e; is so m e; t. hi i n g b e; 1 o w :i 0 )> a r t. s 1. 4 p o r b 1 1. 1. 1 o n w i. 1. 1. 1; a k o c a r o a l; m o s 1; p o o p 1 c; w i. th :i b n o n e> c. c 'P a t :i o n a .1 e. x p o s u r e; . us Q You' r o talking about Ln tho blood? .1 7 A . 1 n 1. h e; b 1 o o d . 1 8 Q - A n d v/ o u 1. d. you an t i. c i. p a h e t h a. 1: o a. o h o n o o I: 1 9 u a :i n t h ,i a room has some; per cent, a g e; of PC 11 ' s i n h .1 s ?.o b !. o o d ? 2 :i A . B e; ' s g o t n o t p e; r c e; n t a g e; o f , B c;'s - - wot .1 , 2 2 you ca n c a 1. 1 p o r c o n 1; a g o s , b u 1; w e o. I. 1. h a v o i. t L n o u r 2 3 b .1 e; o d ?A Q . A n d you w e> u .1 d e; x p e e: t t h a t p e; o p 1 e. w h o h a v e; ?.F> s u b s t a n 1; i. a I 1. y h i. gh o r t h a. n 1: h i. s l) a c k g v oiuul PR r c o n 1; a ty <
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1 w o u 1 d bo i. n d i. c a 1'. i. v e o 1: o o c u p a 1:. Lon a 1. o x p o s u r o ? 2. A A b n o r in a 1 oxpoiniro!, what, ever 1. h a t ,i f: , 3 Q 0 k o y , W h o 1; h o v o o o u p a t; i. o n a. 1 o r o I; lx e v w i s id `: 3 A T h a t. ' h r i g Li t . H e c. o u .1 d b e - - h e. con.Id be r> e 1. u Is I: o r i. n cj u p L n lx i. h' b a a e m o n 1; a n d d o i. n y s o m e 1; h i. n y 6 .i f , :i Ti fa e t, Li e h a d a o in a P C ).l 1 s . All w fdrfi savin g 7 f: o r :3 o m e r o a. o n 1. k ' 13 a. b n o r m a 1 1. y h i. y h and i I: c o u 1. d a a n d .i o in o s t. c a s> o. si W o: w o u 1 d n ' t r e c o g `n i x c; t. Li e c a xi a e
9 :i. t .
1 0 Q A .1 so , 1 f I xi ri d v. t r; t a ti d w Li a t y on ' v o t o .1 d xi s 1 1. o o v c e o t l y , o v o v k i. III o l; lx e 1. o v o 1. ma. y I: a 1 1. , J 2 A . 1 ti, x ft 1c t. hat. .if we. take a man exit of 1.3 o x p o s u r o h i. a 1.11V o 1. w i. L l r: a l 1. . J <1 Q 0 k a y . T h a t ' a m y p o i n t . 1. b A . A n d tlxo - h lx o f a. c b , w lx o n 1.1 d o o :3 n 1 1; n h o w J h i t. , i it 1. Li e y Li a v o n ! L. xv a ,i t e d .1 o tx y o n o o q h , 1. 7 Q 3 o , a. p<c ao n w lx o h a s had t h 1 r a b n o c m a. 1 i a O X P O H 0 T Cl y o xi t a 1 It a b o xx t. a n d t Li e ti a a a m p 1 e i R t akc: n 1. 9 :3 O V O V a. 1. y e a. r a a 1: h o r m a y n o h show a. 1. o v o l i. n h i. r 2 0 b .1 o o d a ?i Li 1 g Li a u i t w oxi Id have been had it been 2 1. 1: o a 1; e d, a 1: h h o I; i. in o o i : 1: h o 1; h o a b n o r m a. 1. e x p o s u r o , 2 2 C O T T < C. t ? 2 3 A , And T d o n ' 1. know bow mo eh that would have 2 4 f a 1. 1. o n 2 b Q * N 1 g h 1. ,
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A , T'h a 1; ' s b h o o I; h e r p a r t w o <1 n ' 1- k now.
Q Hu 1. wo won 3d ox poet 3t to L a 1 3 3>y ho mo 3 a m oun 1; 0
3 A . 31 y v, ci iii o amount.
!3 Q - 0 k a. y , And how far 1 l, would Hull and how 6 f a f! t. i 1. wou 3 (i f a 3 3 , y o u c'i o n o t k n o w ; 3 h 13i a t
7 C 6 V l.` o c t ?
B A . O' 3i a l. ' a r 3 q 3t t. . T c'i o n o 3. k n o w ,
9 Q , N o w -...
J 0 A . 'P3i e data may bo there, but 3 haven't done a.
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o a n t? w o r 1: h o q u o:? t i. o n , B u h m y i m p r e s a i. o n
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1 3 o a n g 3. v e yo a a general rulo. The higher i. 1: is, l;he
] '1 f a f: t. ('. t 3 1. f a 3 3 h .
J b Q . B o , the 3)3q3te:r 13i e 3ovc-:3 of exposure, the
m o r e 1. 1 k o 1. y i. i: 1 s 1; o 1: a. 1 1. o f f; r a. p i. d l y ?
3 7 A . 'I' 3i c. fi 3 g 3i e. :r 3 3. 3 ci , l. 3i e f a s t. o r 3 t. ' s; q o 3 n g t o
I B 1: a 1. 1 .
J 9 0 0k a y 3 0 A . Now, 3. fi e r o m a y 3> e o 3'. 3i e r f a e 3. o :r k r o 3 a t. e cl .
3 1. Q W h a 1: would y o u oonsi. dor ho bo an abnormally 3 '?. 3i 3 g 3i 1 o v e 3 of P C H ' fi 3 n 3.3i e 3) 3 o o d ?
). 3 A . T. 3: o Id you I.' haven' 1; 1: o 1. lowed l. hi. s because.
?. 0 w ci ' v e b o o ri o u 1. o f 1.3i ci P C H 3) u n i n e s , A n d a 3 3 3 -- .3
3 3 have road i 1; because of my intones 1;. And f l;h i. nl<
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1 l;ha 1; K ' v e :5 a i. d k. he normal, r an (jo is 10, but there a. r e 2 poo p1 (?. w.i thont o o o u pa 11 on a .1 exposure; that are hi <7 ki e r 3 k, h a n 1k h a k . A k. leant kha. k'n win 1'. k h e. 1 i k e r a. k u r o fl r, ays. b And wtict.h er that :j u o t r e f. .1 e c t n that. 6 n o r m a 1 r a. n g o o r s o in e k h 1 n g w a s a b n o r m a 1 i. I: w e 7 i n 1. e. n s e .1 y a t. u cl l o d ki i m .1 s 1 d o n ' t 1c n o w , Bo, t. ki e r e .i a (5 a r a n g e o f: n o r m a L . 9 Q. I'm t.:r y :i nq to find out about whore the ..... 1. 0 w h c r o k h o p ok. e n k i. a 1. r a. n g e o f I: h o a b n o r m a k ex p o a u r e 1 1 1 f! , 1 3 A . An y t. ki 1 n g a b o v e t ki a t n o :r in a 1 r a n cj e , w h a t. o v e r 1.3 t h a. t ' ;5 d e I: i n e d . J 4 Q W e 1 .1 , y o u a e r t a 1 n .1 y a a n ' t ki a. v e p u r e P C R l Fi ninnk n g a r o u n d k n y o u. r b 1. o o d , can y o u ? J 6 A , No , s 1 r . J 7 Q . 1 a t. ki e T e a omo upper limit to wki i v. ki o n e I. B c o u 1. d g o in h a v i. n g a p o r r. e n 1; a. g o o f FJ C R ' s i n h i a :i 9 b 1 o o d ? 2 0 A . Depends on th e J eve1 o f e x p o i u X' e . 2 i. Q B o , y o u d o n ' k k n o w :k I: i. k could gel: ko one 2. 2 P <' r t ki o u a a n d , f o r e x a hi p .1 e? 2 3 A . Mo, I d o n o k. , 2A Q W o u .1 d y o u a n 1. i ci i p a t e i t w o u .1 d ? 2. 9 A . I d o n ' k k n o w how to a n a wer the question.
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I. ).' ' v e s a i. d I:. h a. I: , I; o in o , w <?. o a 1 1 a u y I: h i n g a b o v e 1 0 a a 2 tuning a b p o T' iri a .1 . And t. hat.'u u i l. cj. con man .in 3 o r. c.u p a I: i. o n . A n d i. n I; h o I. h in g a L ' v e 1. o o k e d a I; i n 4 t hc -~ t3) e ;i a s t 1. wo da y s , t3i e 3 ev e3 s of }'CH ' shave 3 b e on s u b ;? I: a. n I: i. a 1. I. y h i. g h n r I; h a n I !: h o u g h I: a b o u t . 6 Q . W ha l. 3i a v a y o n 3 o o)< a d a t. i n 1.3i a 1 a t. c o n p 3 a 7 (31: <1 a y a ? fl A . I've: a e, e n o in e t. ti .i n g ~ - s o m a 1ti i n g s . 9 `I.1 a !*; W l T N R B B : 0 i d n ' I; ): ? 1 0 M K . 1, A C ): y ; M r . P r n e 3t w a 3. d , c. a n y o u I 1 h e I. p the w i. I: n o s s w 1 t h w h a. I; y ou'v e s h o w n h i. in i. n t h e 1 7. 3' a s t d a y o r t. w o ? J 3 M)\' . !'K11 IiH WA LD : bo n o t. -- d o n o t k no w I. 4 w h a. I; h o ' s r e t e v v i n g h o , 1 b MR. LACKYr I fl f; e . I. b A. , Wn 1,1 , h h o ri/ l ' in - - L` ' v e r e a. d P a h I: y , t h e 1 7 o n 3 y Id) i n g 3 ' v c d o ri a i n a d d ,i t. i on t. o (. b i s . An d 3 'v e i a s o n n ;? o m e p I a c e s w h o r e w o ' r e I; a 1. k i n g a. b o u I: 3 0 0 , b 0 0 3 9 a fi Ik; ;ing n o t unusua.l . And 7 'think 3 'in saying 2 0 correctly, and the source I've got that .Lb, I I 2 :i can't, answer tdi a t because. I haven't held much 3. i m o to ?. 3 g o t r c a d. y I: o r I: h 1 a . 3 3 Q, . ()ly Mr. l.acoy) 3 see. Do you think you've 3 4 1) e c; n .1. o o k i. n g a, t 3. n t o r m .3 t i. o n v e g a r din g p e c i. I: i. c 3 3 j) 3 a ;i ii t i f f s in Id) i s cane arid those are the n umbers
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I. y o u ' re I,:). 1 k .1 n g about-, or j (J 15 i P c oplo who have b o e n 2 w h o h n v e h a d s n b ;; t a n t i a .1 o c c u p a t i on a .1 e x p o s u re ? 3 A . ,1 u s t s u b i> 1; a. u t i a 1. o ecu p a 1; 1 on a 1. e >: p o s u r e /\ Q J Si eo . A n d w c r e 1. h o e pc op.It; at. Mo ns a ! 1 t O ? b A . N (3, s i. r . W e d 3. d. n ' 1; - - w (3 d j. d n ' 1: d <3 P 0 8 ' 13 6 i n b 1 ood , 7 Q T a e e . S o , y o u d o n 1 t )< n o w w h a t .1 e v ci 3 of 8 fixpouurs your people had by at loaiJ t evaluating on a 9 p n r t s p e :r m i J .1 .i o n b s i a f o r b ] o o d c o ri c e n I. r a t i o n a ? 1. 0 A , M (? , is i. r . 1 :i Q. Did you do any POP'a in fat? 1. 3. A. No. f h i.wan -- we were out o f: the l?CR' ;i 3 bn nines a be loro, thin a .1 .1 -- the other ........ what the u fact 1:3 i :3 t h a. t our air lovol. n were low, and we h a d 3 r> 1. hem - - made sure that they washed off their s kin, i <s A n d w h e n N T 0 8 d o a m e I o M o n s a n I; o a i i d 1 7 looked at whether they wanted to do a PCdi study on I. 8 o u t' g r o u p , a.:? I; h e y s a. i d, t h e y d l d n ' t, !:. h i. n k i. t wo ij l d :i 9 be worthwhile to do - s tudy our popu.1 a t.i on . ?. o Q , R e e a u n o M o n :3 a n t o h a d w o r k e d :3 o h a :r d I; o 2 3 limit the exposure of :i ts workmen to POP'S, correct? ?. 3 A . Tha 1; 1:3 l;he way we do e v e ryt h i. n g ., We d (3 3 3 a ) .1 of on r bus i n c s s t. b a t w a y , A 3 3 o f o u r e x p o s U r e <! 3 \ ,3. r e low , ?. b Q . And 5 n pa j-1 i c 3i 3 a :r w .i th r o g a r d 1.0 1.1) e
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1. o p e r a !: L n </ p r o o oi d. u r e ;? I" o r P C R ' s , 1:he.y woroi :s o
2 d a a i g /i e d for 1. ho sir opnral.ioiiti 1. o b a v e v e r y 3 o w
3 oi X p O H u r e n , w o r e t: h e y n o 1; ?
A ,A , 3 l.h.inb ao, but I don' t know. 3 wiuin't -
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t9
s o 1. u b l O
A n d .i. n y p 1. a c e 1: h o r e ' f; a. 1:, h h a 1; ' a w h e re
2 0 y o u 1 ] .1 f 3 rid 3 t in o a t. .
2 3 Q Wbat .1 ovc.1 ;i of PCH ' sj would bo nor" hi a 3 :i n hhe
2 2 n o n o c ('. 11. p a 1: 1. o n a 1, o x p o ;? o d w o r k o r i. n i: a 1: ?
2 3 A . ! d o n ' 1, k n o w .
2 4 Q . W o u I. d 1. (i v o 1 i3 on h u i d o w h a I; e v o r 1: h oi n o r m a 1. 2 r;i ng e 3' o .r f a t. o o a o. o n t. r a h 3 o n a o f POI 1 st 3 n i n d 3 c. a 1. e.
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h i. g h l o v e I. s o t ii x p o :i u r e ?
2 A , :i wo u 1 d t. Li i n ]< a o , b u i 1 d on ' i. o o wLiy w o
3 h a v e L, o ojo - - I cion' h n n cl (i i: s 1; a n d why w e c. a n't ] u s t
-1 IUIK I'CII' ;i n b .1 o od ,
r-> Q Well , my (pio;i 1:3 on to you i n ri o t: wli (vl.hcir you 6 0 ,111 U ;? o that; or not. My question in : V a t i. :3
7 a a o t. h d r t. h :i n q t h a t. o n e c o u .1 d d o ?
B A . Y e n , A b s o 1 u t, o 1. y .
9 Q And t. boro won .1 d bo a norma] i"a ncj e 3 7i f a t ,
i. n o i) i.' r e a. 1; ?
J :i A . V o ;; .
J 3 Q . A n d .1 o v o J a a b o v o t Li a t. w o it .1 d :i Ti d 3 a a t. o in o r e
1 3 a nbs 1: a n k Lai. than environmental exp oh u v e , :3 o m e i- y P 1 4 o f a b n o r m a 3 o x p au r e , o o r r o o t ?
I. 3 A . K wo a 3 d t h i. n k h o ,
J 6 Q 1 c. 3 it d ,i n cj Li :i y h o c c n p a 1.3 o n a 3 e x po a u r e , I. 7 c. o r r e r I: ?
J H A . I w o u 3 d t Li :i Ti k ?! o . 3 ' in - ;r h a v o. ri o Li a ft 3
1. 9 o i: wha. t 3! 'm. ta 1 k i 11 g o I: , t ' m i u :? 1: g i v i. n g y o u w h a t
2 0 my thoughth 2 J Q. Wo 1 1 , .1 ?! 7. Li a 1. t Li o way t. Li :i rig 3 w o T k ? 2 2 A , Ab 3 O 1 u. t e 1 y
2 .9 - A ?! cl in e d ,i o a 3 in a o , y o u o. a n 1. c; .1 3 n a Li o w t Li t- y
3 4 wo r Ic ?
2b
A.
Ye c*\'
but. 1 1 in cj c. 7t e r a 3 3 V, :i 71 rj .
A 71 (3 , 3 o ,
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t w h e 1: h n r 1: h o re iirfi no mo h h 3. n g n 1: h o. 3. o u 1; o f 1. 3. n o a nd
3. 1.3i a t. 3 d o n ' 1. u n d u r s t. a n d - - t> n t I w o u .3 d n ' 3. e. x p o c. 3.
3 1: h o m l:. o b n o A Q . T h a 1. ' s in y c) 11 o a 3. 3 o n -l. o y o u ,
b N (3 v/ , P 0 R ' n , oh' o (5 u c :> o , h a v o a
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7 A . Y o s , ;? 3 r .
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.1 0 e f foot, on t,)ui b o dy, cor r e c 3. ?
l L A. . You , :3 i r ,
3 2 Q . And 3. 3) r; HI o T .1 3 k c: 3 y 3.3i e o f f e c 3'. '3.3> a '3. w c: S' o o,
1.3 3. Is a n y , i. :? (jo 3. ng h, o bo n e v o r o , r, o v v o c. t;?
1 A A . 3' h e n y o vi ' y e g o t a p r o b 3 o in w 3i o ti you a y
1. Fi t h i u , w h e I; h (3 r wo ' ro tn 1. k i n g a b o a h a o u l". o o r c. h r o n i. C .
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3 3 y o u ' r o 1. a 1 ]{ :i n q a. 3.) o u 3. a c vi 1. o , 3. h a 3. 1 a o n e 3.3i ,i ti q .
ii
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I. 9 two t. or m i n o 1. o g i. o n 1: h a h a. ro uiioil for exposures, a ro
2 0 13i or o no l. i iunitci and c 3i r o ti 3 o ?
2 I. i\ . Yon , n i. r .
3 3 Q . A n d 1. o n y in .3) o .3 ,i x e a c u t e. o x p o u r e. s' , :i f 3 3. o o k
3 3 o n o o l: 1; h o :> (3 3 1; y ro 3: on in 0 u p h w o ' r a a 1. 1. d r i. n k i. n q o u 1;
2A of today a n d f i 3 .3 o d 3 1. u () w 3 3-. 3i PC H ' a n d d r a ti J< .3 3. 2 !3 a 1. 3. 1; o r, o. a , ) ' d. h n. v e a. n a o u t, o (T x p o n u r o , w o u 1. (.3 n ' 1: I ?
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I A , Y <x . 2 Q > A n d .i f :1 n f.i t. e a d e v e, r y d a y w h c: n .1 w 0 n t. t. 0 g 01 2 a c u p o f col:l: oe somehow one drop of pen ' s 1" ex 1 1. i. n to 4 t h a 1 ('. u p each day and .1 d i" a n !: t. h a t. e n 71 0 r c 0 f f 0.0
r> w i. Lh onfi drop of pc: d i. n ft every day f 0 r t. w 0 , t. H r eex,
6 four, f :'i vo, t o. n f t won't, y, yearn, that -- t. h e n I ' d 7 h a v o a e h r o n I e e x p o ;? u r e ? 8 A . And that, could be a part, of w h a i. y 0 u ' r 0 9 <7 c! 1; 1; i. n g now w i. 1; h o u 1; f. h a. 1;, m a y n o 1'. b e 1 a r!7 0 a i> :i o c. o in p a r o (1 to that. :i :i Q. M y q u o n t. i o n 1. o y on f ?! :i ' m t r y :i ng 10 d 0 f :i n e 1. 2 w U a 1; o h t: o n i. c exposure; 1 s , .1 3 A . You . Yc;k , And each one of t 1)0 11 ex a r 0 d 0 n e 1 4 r o l a 1; o d and <7u i. I:o sop a r a 1: e , i. s in y p o i. n t . i 5 Q A .1 .1 r :i g h t. . 3 6 A . I w a a t :r- y ;i n cj t o g o f b a r. k t o you r a c u t. 0 d 0 r 0 I. 7 i. u ..... b y m o u 1: lx , t. h a i:. 1:? o n l y a 1 i, g h t 1. y f, 0 x i c , T h e .1 H f a o 1 t. h a t. 5 t. t a )< c* n 1 0 g r a m 710 r k 5 .1 0 cj r a m t. 0 kill t h 1 9 a n i. m a. L a nd 1.0 grams t: i. in 0 j? b 0 tx r 7 0 k i. 1. 0 s i, s 7 0 17 r a m s 7.0 tdi a t .in 2 ounces, 3 0 u ri c cx a , : i c. igi f n .1 . 3 J Q . W i. i. 1 k i. 1. 1. y 0 u ? 2 2 A . If r 5 1 . w a a e q u a '!1 .1 y ..... i J w 0 ' r a a r; 0 q u a .1 1 y 2 3 s u :3 c <: p 0 i. b I. e a s I; h o. r ,x I; , 2 A 0. O k a y . 2 a A . H u I; i I; <7 i, v c n y o u a b a L 1. p a r k .
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I. Q. Okay. 2 A . B u t w e ' r e ;; t. 3 .1 1 I. a 1 It 3 n q 3 t. .3 o n 'I y a .1 3 q h 1. 1 y 3 I:. o x i. r. a. c. u t o I. y . 1 Q . Yeah. N o w , .1 o. l. in e a t; It y o u a b o \t t t. h a t, b y 3 I*, ho way, 'Che different route!) of exposure that one 6 c an have nonna.l .1 y for a human boring would be oral 7 o x p o 0 u r e ; s k i. n o x p osuro, w h e r e the r e w o u l d b o 0 a b ft o r p t ,i o n ; o r t h r o u g h 5 n a p .i r a t. :i o ri o r r e h p .3 r a t.1 o n , 3 <: o r r o e t, ? :l o A . you , b u I. 1 n o e o u p a t :i o n a .1 w e u rs u a 1 ]y d o n ' t i. i to. 1. (< aboil I: i I: being orally. It can be. 1 3 Q . Hu t thane are the three routes! of exposure? 1 3 A . T h o. t ' it t h o t h r e e. - - o r e 1. :5 o y o u c a n g o I: L t 1 6 b y ;i n ;} e c: t. ion . 1 S 0 . H o m e b o d y o o u .1 d j u a 1. toko .it. and put i t. 3 n
1. 6 a y r i. n g o .... -
:i 7 A . R i g h t . 1 B Q > -- a n d d :i r e. c t .i n ;j e. o 1 . ;i t. ;i n t. o y o u r v e 3 n fj ? l 9 A . T h a. 1: ' ;5 r i. g h h . 3 0 {} T h a t p r o b .1 e m :i si n o t -- t. h e 3 n ;j o, c t: o n 3 T) t. C) 3 i. the vo i.n 15 i. 15 n o t a n o o (t u p a t i. o n a 1. - t y p o e x p o t u r o y o u 3 3 worry about? 3 3 A . 'i.' h a 1: ' a r i g h t . ?A Q The. ot he r three all can have otic up of 3 on a .1 3 b c o m p o n o n I; !5 , c o n t h e y n o t ?
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2 Q N o w , y o u h o .1 d in o tfiii t yon don't think PC it' a 3 il ro pa r 1:. L o u 1. a i.' 1 y h o x i. o f r o m 1: h o o r a l i. n g o It i. o n A r onto, c: o.!" r e e t. V
(5 A , I d o n ' 1; 1: h i. n k T a a i. d It h a. 1; .
6 G W o .1 .'1 , .1 o t in o in a k o ,i t. v e. :r y o .1 e a r . Are PCP' a 7 v o r y I; o x t c f: r o m h h e o r a 1. a. n g e It i. o n r o u t o ?
R A . 4 t ' a a a o u :r c. o of e x p o a u T' o .if y o u d o i t t> y
9 L n 1; e it 1; 1 0 {). W o 14, .1 o t m o a a k i t anotli or way. A x- e PCR' c* 1. 1 m o r 1: o X i. c. by akin abso r p h. i. o n o v b y it r a 1. i n g e1; i. o n'?
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1.3 Q Aro 0 C R'a m or e h o x i. a b y k ,i n a b o r p t i o n o r .1 A o r a '1 i i) g c t .i o n ?
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2 .1 Are PCR's in o r e 1 .1 k o 1 y t. o g e t. i n t o m y
7. 2 b o d y t It r o u<j h o ra L i n <j e s 1; i. o ii o c r k i. it a. b r o c p It i. o u ?
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4 brought j ri 1 o tho body, us; y o u say, t h r o u g h s k i n
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9 s k i. n .
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i 4 toxic ~~ that is, got lucre into your body -- skin
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i 7 h a. n d :t a. s h e :t hou I. d a.n d d oo s n ' k pu I; i. t i. n h i. s mo u k h ,
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1. 8 d o p a r b m e n b o f: M a n nan b o ?
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1.
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Q And ho had 1. t . k. horn r o r a a ub:? k.an k. i. a l ?. por ;i o d o k 1. I hi (; w h o ft 1 1. c a me t. o 1 .i cj la 1. r d i d ri t h o ? 3 A . r don ' k. know A ft Was1 t. h o civ on l.ho only thimj 1. h a I h v. w a a b L O U T1 d k r) k i. n g I7 r o m k. h it o a in p a. n y ? 6 A . 1 1. h ,i ri k s; o . 7 o And I: h a. k. was 1: h e nl: raw 1: h a t b v o k o 1: h o B c: a in c; .1 ' ft b a c. k a ri d 1:. o o k h 1 in out of t ki o p o w .1 t .i o ti over 9 t h d 1; 1. a. b o ra k. o t: y ? :i 0 A . y o n . ] :i Q '.I'h c-.ro. were o l.hor Ml. raws: t. h a t h a d b O C>. Tl 12 1, o a. d i. n < j up k. o kha. 1; pr o b 1. o m ? 1 3 h , W o .1 .1 , t. h o r o w a r e -- :i 1. w a a in o r a o f I. A in .i n a q o m o n t, on how t. o ma na.go a 1. a b o r a t o r y a n d m a k e 1 S i 1. w o :r M W o. 1 1 . II (->. - - h o w a u n ' t a Hi a ri a q a r . I fi ft Uo It ad p r o b 1. o m :3 in a. n a. <j i n U a k. ox i. o o l ogy 1 7 ] a b O T > t. O x y , d .i ci n ' 1 h o r,> I H A . X o si . 1 9 ft h n d '1. h a k ' n o :i ur pr 5 n o t. o a ri y b o d y i n 9 0 M o n :? a. n k. o who wa. k. r. hod h i. ii 1: I: o r k. a k. o 1; r y 'r, o m a tt a. cj o 3 :i 1 It Cl i :r 1.o x :i c o .1 o q y 1 a bo ra 1;. ory , i fi :t 1. V 3 :> A k d o n ' k. ii n d o c w k, a. n d. I; h a 1: c( u o s k. i. o n , 3 3, - W o I .1 r i 1. w a ! o b v i o n t: 1. o o v ory bod y cl 1. 2 A M o n :i a n 1: o who wa k. ohnii h i in a k, k, o in p I; k. o in an a. (jo '/ b M o n t: a ri 1. o 1 ,<; lo x 5 o o 1 o q y .1 a bora T. ory b o c o n 1 d n ' t. in a n a q o
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l a 1. a b o t. a 1:. o r y w o. 1. 1. . 2 A . Y c-: a . 3 Q . Now, <1 3 d M on a a n l.o t a 1< e a ny a c t 3 on a g a 3 n n t 4 Mr. W r i g It 1; as a resit! 1; o 1: ft It La faking oh: It It i. s ft in 3 c. r o w a v c-t o v n n h o to o. V 6 A . Vo.fi. Ho bad a .`lower poni U on when hi e c a in o 7 b o, c k t o u a . 8 Q And wan that, part of your rets pons 5 b .i .1 3 t y a r> 8 I: It o p e r a o n w It o c. o u 1. d h i. r e a n d f: i. r e e m p 1. o y n e a ? :i o A . Y o a , i 1 0 How far d.3 d you do mo to h.im? 1 7, A . i; doit ' I; ntr.a L l . J 3 0. . )) 3 d t hi a t t. y r> o o f c o n d u c. t r a 3 s e 3 n y o u x- m 3rd 1. 4 a n v d. o u b 1; s a. b o u I: It o w lion o ;s t a rt .1 n d i. v i d u a 1 l; It i. s :) ft p e r s O T) W *? 1.6 A , Y O 15 , J 7 Q Hut not. enough doubts to t.ernii thi le hi 3 m ? 1. 0 A . N o , 'f.1 It a 1; w a s fit o r o u g It 1. y r o v L o w o d . J 9 Q . ) l y y o u a n d M r . 'J' b r o d a hi .1 ? 2 0 A . Yo s . 2 1 )):id you (1 i fi f. u ;i r: with Hr. Wright t hi C5 2 2 p o a s i. b i 1 l f.y l:ha f It o might f be form i no, bod? 2 3 A . 'S d o n ' f a:r o. c. .1 .1 . 2 4 Q D i. d y ou d i. s c u -.5 s w L 1; It him 1:. It o ;> e v o r i. 1: y o f 2ft h :i ;t s i 1. u a t ,i o n ?
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I. A . Y o :3 . 7. 0 An (3 3, ho )(' o P a r d y 3. h a t'. 3) i ;i c o n d \i r. 3. 3i a d 3 p 1. a. c R d h i. a c a r o o r i. n ? t\ A . Y n ;; . b Q W h a 1. v. x p 1 a ini 1. .i o n o o r j \i ?; 1 i f i c. a 1. :i o n f; d i d
1) r . W r i. g h 1; o f f e v h o y o u ? 7 A . N o t. a g c> o (3 o n e. . B 0. W h a 1; w a w i. 1; ? 9 A . H o w a a ;) vi a 1. h a v i Ti g :i t. 3i o in o: , H e wa goi ng I. 0 L o b c L n g i. 1:. 1) a. c k . i :i Q. Wan pari, of l.fio n on n i dor a t. :i on i n y cnir i. ?. d r c i. '.3 i. o n nol: ho I'.oriiii nato D r . W r i. g h t 1: h r p r o m i.nen h 1 3 t o .1 o h <;! had p .1 a y ed in f o r e s 3. a .1 3. i n g t. he li)' A ' s 1. 4 p r o in u. 1. g a h i. <5 n o (: u n r o a I. i. :3 I: L c r r g u I. a t i o n b o 1. I m11;
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9 A . K v on bo f ore t. h a t. . The qnos t.i on o f w h .i c. h i. o '.5 f; u d i o s i. ha t PDA was go ing 1 o h a v o .i r i g h 1 1 o 1 o o k j i at was opf:n i. n noino - 1 d o n ' t - - t. h a 1. wa p a .1 eg; a 1 t ?. d o c i. s Lon, w h i. oh on ns i. h e y could look 'a i; . G o , w o J 3 k now t h a 1 w a h t. a k 5 n g p .1 a c b e f o r (7 . I. 4 Q. W o c o y o u i n v o 1. v od a L a .1. 1 i n d o a 1 i. n q w 11 h 1 R t. h e G o v e :r n m e. n 1. J) o o p 1 o wh o w c: r o :i n v e p t. i g a t. i n g t h a 1. ? t. 6 A . No , s i r . J 7 Q K v o n t h O 11 (j Li I. h y d o a J t. w i t h s' t. u d i a d o n <o I. B t: o r hlui iiuidic a. 1 d o y ri r 1: m o n 1: o v u n d o i: y o u v d i r n c 1: i. o n 1 9 A . N o , p :i r , 7.0 Q Y o u had no hh i, n q t o do w L 1: h 1 1. ? 2 I A . N o t a 1 h ,i n g . 2 2 Q W h on W r). S I i. h a I: 1) r . W r i. q h 1 ' S WO r k w a s 2 3 t. a k v. n out. r T'oin under y o u :i p u p o r v ,i p i o n ? 0 n .'1 y a. t. t.h c 2 4 p o i. n 1: ho wa s i. 17 d i. o 1. o d '? 2 r> A , Y o: c;
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1 Q From 1; It o 1: i. m n oli h t s i. n d i. c 1; in n n k liorward, 2 d ;i <1 h e p nr for m any work for MoTuianto? 3 A . N o , :? i. r . A Q J).id ho remain on your payroll? 3 A , Ho was on leave o 1: a bn one. o; 130, ho was 6 p a :i d . 7 Q, B u t 0 n y 0 u :r p a y r 0 il i). ? 8 A . I'm sum i. 1; wan. 9 Q - Hit dor your budget. ? 1 0 A . U n d 0 v m y 1) u d <j 0 1; , :i i Q D i d h 0 r 0 0 0 :i v 0 a rt y S r> c. r e a r; c: a .i n a a .1 a r y I. ?. w h i. 1. o h n w a. s u n d 0 r i. n d i. c k m 0 n k ? 1 3 A . N 0 , n :i r . 1.4 Q . W a ;? ho n s k 0. d 1; 0 p 0 r 1: 0 rm any wo r k ? 1 S h , N0 , a \ r . ] fi Q - Wan your budget charged w 1 h h the lcKja.1 fees 1. 7 Urn 1; Mon n a n k 0 pa i. d f or Dr. W r; i. g h h ? :i B A . N c) , if ,i r . 1 9 Q W n n 1; h,>. 1: m a k 1: 0 r d i. n 011 n e. d ? 20 A . N0 , a i r . 2 1 Q Whose budget. was charged wit. h the legal 2 2 lino n 1; ha 1: M 0 n :> n. n k 0 p a i. d f 0 r D r . W r i. g h k ? 2 3 A . .1 don ' t. k i) 0 w . ?A Q You a r 0 a w n. r n of: k h 0 f a 01; t, h n. 1: Dr, W r i g It k ' s 2 b 1 <' Cj a .1 f o 0. f; w e. r e p a ;i d f 0 r by M 0 it a n t. 0 ?
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1 A n o . i: s .a y I m a y h a v o b e o n 1: o 1 d ; a ml s L n o e 2 ,i 1'. d ,i d r.i ' 1 m o a n anything lo me, 3 - - it wan n ' t 3 s o m e 1:. h i. n g 1' would -- i: won 1. d t; e e a 1. L . /] Q. > Who wa ri it. tli at d ircc.ted you not 1. o g o t S i. n v o l v e d i. n 1: h i a i. n v o s 1; i. ga. h 1. on? f. A P o r i! o on c: .1 . 7 Q Wh o? B h T cl O Tl ' t r e. c. a 3 3 . 3 won 3 d - - in y g u o ti;; wool d 9 bo, i. 1: i: h a d. 1: o say, would b e B o b S h 1 r L e y . 1 0 Q * W h o 5 rs B o b B h i :r 3 e YV 1. .1. A Hu 1 our personnel 1. man that was w i. 1: It i. n o u r 5 2 C! Tl v :i r o ti iri e ti t a 3 ' p o .1 icy a t. a f f 1. 3 Q D i. d. n ' It i 1; it ro in t o you .important fior you, as 1 4 t. h e in e cl :i c a 1 d 1 r c: c. t o .r- o f M o ri s a n t o , t o k ti o w w h a t w a a 1 5 (j o i. n g o n <3. n d 1. o gel; 1, o the b o 1.1 o m o i: t h i. s p r o b 1. e m ? :i f> A I w a. :l t O 3 (1 T) o t t o q e t 5 n v o 3 v e d , 1 7 Q - W e L 1 , d i dn ' t i. 1: it eom .important to you that. 1 B cj ;i veil you r p o ;f .i t. 3 o n a s in e d :i c a 3 d i r e c t or, you n e e cl o cl 1.9 h o l) e 1 n v o 1. v e d an d you needed 1. o know what was going 2.0 O T) ? 3. J A .( c. a n 1 t -- - 3 d on 1 t k ti o w h o w t o a n swer t. hat 7. 3. q u c-5 s L i. o n . 2 3 Wo .1 1 , did yon rni s e a n y o b j o c. t .i o n - 7. 4 A No . 2 h u * - 1. o the suggest 1 o ti o :r d i r o e: 1.1 v o 1. h a t y o u
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1. A , Wo wfU'o not. p e v in i t I: o d t o . 2 Q Wh o p r o h .3 ):> 3 I. e d you I r ci m o b s e r v .3 n g t h o i. r 3 a I 3 and loam i. n g f h o. e v i. d o n o o w i, t li r e g a r d t o Mon s a n I. o ' s 0 and 3 1ST ' s c o n d u c t .3 7) 1h o ri e u S. u d .3 o s ? b A , It vais out of -- l had no author 3. t y si n c o I f) d .i d a ' t pay for It, 3 f 3 h a d b e o n u a 3 n g 1. ti a t - 7 Mona a n t o -- out of: my b udgo t, 1 m i. gh t ha vo h a d s o in t7 8 a u t h o r 3 1'. y ; but. It w a ji ri o t 3 n m y p r o v .3, nee. .T t wa 8 9 n o 1: i. n m y a u t h o r i. 1: y o r r o s pons i b i l i. t y , a n d 1 was 1 0 to!d T wa a 7i ' t t o 1) e 3 involved In It. l 1 Q W h o I; old y o u hha.l; nobody from I: ho m e d l c .11. 3 8 d <:: p a r 1. m e. n t. o o vi .1 d in o n 3 1. o j" t h e t r 3 a 1 t, o .cs o e what the 13 p r o b 1, e m s w o r o ? 1 <3 A . I' e r s o n ri e 1 . 1 5 Q WhoV 1 f> A , fio b 8 h .3 t .1 e y , 3 7 O . 8o, 'nobody 3 n M o n a a ri 1, o ' s m e d .i c. a 1 d e p a 7" t hi u. n t. 1. H w a s a 1. 1. w Rd to have !: i rs t. h a n d 3. n f o r m a I; i. o n a b o u t t h o 3 9 e v 3 d e n c e that came ou t. I n the HIT trial ; 3 s t. h a t 2 0 c o t: r o <; 1", ? 21 A . Y e n . 2 2 Q - We re you eve r p o r hi 3 t't e d t o r e v 3 e w t h o 2 3 0 V i. d O n C O L h ,.i t c a m e o u t. b y r o a vi L n g 1. r a n s r. r i. p 1: s o r 2 d a 7! y t h 3 n g 1 3 !< e 1. h a t a f ter- It took place? 2 9 A. . M o , s in.
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I. Q . !io ,I: h e o n I y s o u r e o o (: i n l: o r m a t I o n y o u w e r o 2 evcrr periii i it ed to have about, t ho ev a donee that came 3 o u I: i. n I; h a I; I; r i. a. I w a s w h a. I. y o u o o u 1. d r o a d i n the A pub .1 :i c. pr o a n ? 5 A . Yes , 6 Q . W o r o. y o u i n a i. r u <: t e d n o t t o r e a d t. h o p \i b 3 5 c 7 p r e s d o a u m e n t s o n i. t. ? 0 A . No, a .it'. No, a i r . 9 Q. Did you have enough interest: in it to read 1 0 t h o fi e d o cm in o n t ri ? L I A Yes. 1 3 Q. Did you road the a r t i c .1 e s that, came out. in 13 t h e s c i. e n t i. (: i. e I. i. I; o r a t u r e ? And I ' m n o t I: u 1 k i. n g 1 A a i) o u t. t h o r> e w u p a p e r a now; 3 ' m t. a 3 Jr i ncj a b o u t 5 n t h o i. b s c i. e n t i. L; i o. 1. i. i. e r a 1:. u r o s , 1 i. ko " ii o ienc e " in a. g a i. n e ? 1 A , No . 1. 7 Q * W h y n o t ? :t 8 A . I don1 t ro ad "S 0 i o n c: e . " t. 9 Q W e r e y o u a. w. i r e o lT t: h e 1: a r, t t h a i; a r t: i. c 1 o s 2 0 e a m o o u t 3 n '* K c: i e nee" on t h e T 1 i T m a. t I. or? 2 .1. A , f won 1. d. s u. s p e r. 1; t h a t s o m e o n e g a v e m e l: r o m 2 2. o n o 1. i III o or another some t h i n c; t o r e a d or thorn , b u t 2 3 d o n ' 1; roe a 1. 1. t h o m 2. A Q > Wore you i n t o r o u t o d o n o u g h i n t h o pro b .1 o in 2 b a n d whu 1: i. m p a o 1: i h in i. g h t h a vo on t h n s 1: u d i. e s t: 1: a 1:
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1. h a. d b o e n d o n (5 by Monsan Lo at IBT to w a n t h o k n o w 2 wha t t h o o v 1 d o n c. e W <i ^ 3 A . I w o u l d 1. i. k o d to have known. A - n 1 d y O U O ve.r requeut perm! nu.ion t. o find out B w h a. 1; t h o e v L. cl o n c. (a w a n'? 6 A . No , n :1 r . 7 Q. V. o u j u :5 1; t; o o k y o u i: o i; d e r:? ? S A . V e. n , n 1 r . 9 . D3 d Mr . 3 1) A r 1 e y o r a n y b o d y c 1 n e o v o r I. 0 p V o V i. d e y o u w .i, t h a h u m in a r y o f w h a 1: the evidence wan 1 I no you could evaluate the of feet, of the evidence I. 2 t h a I: <: a m o o u I; o n t h e. v a l L d. i. I; y o f: w o r k d (5 n e b y I B 13 f o r M o n n a n 1. o ? X 4 A . No, a Lr. 1 !> MR. I.ACRY : Why don't we qo ahead and I. 6 t a i< c ,_i i. u n c. h b r e a. k '? 3 7 M}'{ . K R U K U WALD: A .1 1 r i <J h t . LB T Till VI D K 0 (1 R A lJ [( 11 R : W e a. r e now iJ o i. n <J 3 9 o f f the roc or d . Th e 1. 1 in e :1 s 1 2 ; 0 9 ]P , hi . 2 0 (N o o n R e c e n :? ) 21 'I'll K V 1 1.) K 0 G R A R ) 1 11R : W e a r e 71 O W 1) a c k on 2 2 t h e r o c o r d . The t 1. in e i. :3 l : 0 2 p . m . 2 3 Q. (By M r , ], h c e y ) D r , R o u nil, wh on t h e f S r f! 1. 2 4 i. n v ei :3 1'. 1 g a t i o n n r e g a i: d i. i i g IBT began. d i d you k n o w w h o 2C> w a : b e. 1 n eg 1 n v <-> u 1.1 g a t o. d , w h a t 3 n d i. v 1 d u a 1 n ?
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1 A . IMo, s i. r . 3 ?> . )') i d y 0 u e v 0 r u n d 0 r a t. a lid pi" i or 10 t h e 3 i. n <1 i u 1; mo n 1; 1h a 1; 1; ho i. n v 0 h 1; i. ya. 1; i. on 1: 0 a u 0 (.1. 0 n a 4 f 0 r in 0 :r <1 m p 1 0 y 0 0 of 1 HT who was: w 0 r k 5 Ti fj at M 0 ti 0 a 111.0 7 !) A . i: 0 a n ' 1; toll, you j u 0 1; w linn i: b 0 0 a. me aware 6 o f t. h a 1. . 7 Q - So , y 0 u 're not an r e 1 f you b 0 c: a m <; a w a r 0. 0 f 8 t h a. I; b e f: 0 r 0 I; h n i. n d. 1 0 t m e 111 0 v n 0 1: ? 9 A Mo . I. 0 Q You ' r 0 not sure? I 1 A 1. in n 0 t 0 U T 0 . I. 2 Q W h 0 n t h 0 1. live 1:. i. y a I; i. 0 n a b ci u t 111 T b 0 y a n , y 0 u 'J 3 w e r 0 aware of t. h c-: f a 0 t. t h a t. J)r. Wright, was a former I. 4 1: n t 0 m p 1 0 y 0 0 w ti 0 w a h w 0 r k i. n y for Monsanto? 1 8 A Y Cl 0 , :! i r . 1 fi Q. A n cl y 0 u r e. c. 0 g ti i x e d t. hal he would be a I. 7 s 0 u. r 0 0. 0 l: i. n l; 0 V ill .1 t i. 0 n a b 0 u t w ha. t t Ii 0 a i. t u a 1. i. on a h I H M 0 0 ! a a 1.0 WO l! , (1:1 d you not.? L 9 A . l wo u n ' t u u r e i u 0 1; who r e P a. u 1. Hr i, <j Ii 1; f i. t 3 0 3 n t. o t b a t . 2 3 Q. Well , prior to bo. i ticj :i nstrii tiled by people 2 2 a, h M n n 3 a. n I; o n o 1: 1; o I, a l !c w i. t h,1 n y b o d y a b o it I'. I', h e H T 3 3 mat tor, did you a;; k ))r. Wright any questions? about 3 4 what happened. at n IVI.' or wh.il; mi. 9 hi; bo goi. ny on that 3 9 would 1 e a d t o l. h e i n v e a t i y a t.;io a ?
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HARTOLDMON0024319
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I. A. , No, n i. r . ') Q . .'( f; 1: h a t'. b e c. a u m e y o n ;j n n t never 1bought .3 a. h o u t a u k i. n rj 1; h a q no n t. i. o n , o r w e i: e y ,i i. n n 1.t; no h o d 4 a .1 m o s (. i in in e d i a I.e.ly not 1. o t. a .1 k w i t h a n y o n e 7 c'i A . i: lia d no i. d.o.i w h a t wan 1'. a k 1 n g pi aoe there 6 a t S H T a n d w h a t war; the e a :r .1 y .i n t. h e p h a {; e o f 7 t h i. s , w h r.l, t t, h o p r oh l.o m w a u . T li o i n v e ii l; i.gal; ion had B be e n g o .i n g on o n .1 bb y FDA, and J h a d 1? n o w n a b o u (. 9 t h o n a m e A d v i. a n ('! r o u n a :i b o i. n g o n e o f; t h o p v L m a r y J 0 people a bo n l. -- a mi '! had known h .i in previ mi;;.l y . l I. Q , flow h a. d yon known M i: . G r o ;?? 1 3 A. Oh, T know he was involved In soiik; other t 3 1; ml i. o ;> l; ha 1: i; - - r k n i-r w ii o w a. ;r -- w o r k e d Vov FDA J 4 a n d h a d 3 O HI O .1" e 5! p on f.` i b A i 1 ty A n 3 u p erv.i n A ri g P A in A A a r I. 3 1; h i. n g u ... - 1 a. i) o r .r h o r i. e :? 1. i. k o. i: R'l.' . 1 fi - What, ty pe O f 111 f i 1. t. e r a h a d y o u p r e v i misl y L 7 w o r k e d w l t. l i M r . G vo a n on? 1 B A . 1 h a dn ' t worked W i t h h i in at a 1 1 . I hi a d n o [ 9 cont a o h w 1. h h ii. i. m 20 Q 1 3ee . 2 I A . 1 h a d } u t; 1. k n o w n 1. h e n a in e , A d j- i a n G r o j!:: . ?. Q, Flow had you pniv i,ous ). y known I; li o iu mo? 3 3 A. A ti a v o read it. fi o in e p I a r. e , and I can 1 1. 3 4 rer.nl I. whore L had road, i h , ?.b Q. Did you ....
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I bb
I
A.
Rut, i: -- when ho, wan there, i;roc all.
t: li e
2 name; and .1 m l. 3 3 3 roe a"13 1 h e namn, A dr3 an (Pros
3 A n d I; h a. I'. ' :? a 1 1. .
4 Q . D 3 d y o u r o o o gti :i e t. h at. , 3 n a d d 3 3. :i o n t. o
fi I) r , W r 1 g h t, y o u ha d o I', h er e m p 1. o y eo a wo r k i ng I: a r y o u
6 ,i ti t. h e m a d ;i e a j d e p a r t. m e n 1 w h o w <; r e f o r m e r 3 13 T
7 e in p 1, o y e e a '?
fi A . No , ,r> 3 r .
9 Q . V O u w o r e n o t, a. w a r o o f. 3. h e f a e 3. 3.3i a 3'.
I. 0 li o y n a w a u a. 1: o r m o r r n i' e m p 1. o y o o 9 :i i A . No , n 3 ;r .
) 2 Q. ,`f s 1.h i u t. h e f. 3 r s t t, .i m o y o u ' v e e v e, r h a a r d
I. 3 h h a !-. ?
J C A. Yen.
') b Q ,, A ti d .1 g u e ;; s 3 ' hi a 3 i 3:3 .3 e u j i e 3 e a r a 1') o u -tt.
I. 6 whciUinr at any pot n !:. i n 1: i. ino be 1: o r e hh e i n d i. o L m e n I;
:i 7 you c:on Lomp.l al.cd i. a 1 k i n g w :i 13i ?; o m e o n e w 3i o k n e w a b o n t
I. H LBT or who I; her you wore i. n n 1: v u r. 1'. e. d b e 1: o r e 1; h a t t i. in e.
:i 9 w o u 3 d 3i a v o a r ;i n e n n o 3. t o 3. a 3 k a b o u l. i 1. 2 0 A , I d i. d. n o 1; l;a. 1. k 1; o a u y o n e a b o u t. i. t . W o (3 i. (.1
2 J t. a 1 I; ala out. 3. ho / ao 3. 3. hat. 'i 1-1T w a <: u n d e r
9 9 i. n v e n h i. ga L i. o n , t) u. L we we r e n ' 1; a u r e w h a 1; i. 1: w a. a a 1. I
2 3 a b o u 3: a n d w h v i 3. w a a t. a k 3 n g p 3 a e. i: , 2 4 Q . W h o d i. d y o u 1: a 3. k w i. t h about. 1; h,) h 9
2 b A. Poop 3 e :i li our department., a nd t ti a t. ' s a 3 .1 .
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L Q , 0 L d y o u i. a 1. k w L t h P a. u 1. W v i. g h t a b o u t t ha 1: 2. A . No . 3 0. . At 1. r i. g hi:.
A . No 1. 1h a t I r e c a .1 .1 , 3 Q . Why n o 1: ? 6 A . 3 r. a n ' t a n a w or- t h a t . 7 9. L m e an, he would certain l.y seem t o b (5 a B i r. a .1 p e r H o n t o t. a .1 k t o a b ci u t 3 ri v o H t i g a i. i o n h o f 9 , won 1 d n ' 1. h e `? J 0 A ,, Y o u s o e., ,i d :i d n ' I. t h i n k o :f P a u .1 a ! b e i n g I. I. t. o IT r. in1 u i. n c e h e c a in e t o mi b e f o r e . ] 2 0 I hoc . When the dec .in .ion was made to 1 3 I: o r m i. n a 1; e I? a u I. W r i. g h I: , w e r o you awa v e o IT h h e 1 A f; i o n b o f o r e i t wa y arm cm need to h i in ? 1.3 A . Y e n . J 6 Q , W i" o y on awa re of the -I 7 A . 1 d o n ' 1: k no w . f. d o n ' t k n o w w h e n h e w ,-i. :i 1 8 . 1 don't )< n o w h o w .... 1 d .i d'n ' t t o 1.1 h i m t h a 1. 19 w a H 1: e r m i. n a. t e d 3 0 Q . T u n d c: r s: 1. a n d . What 1 'in trying to find out ?. I in whether or' not you know that was going to take 2.2. . liuu-: prior to the time that he was told, 2. 3 A. r don1 t know when ho was to I. d; no, I realty 7'1 . a n ' t a n o w o r t h a 1. q u e a i. :i o n . 3 3 Q , Oka.y. Do you know why he wan terminated?
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A. I wan t o I. d that ho was l;enit i.natod because
>i o wan c. o n v .5 c t. e d o f a f e 1 o n y , a a d w a won `l d n ' 1 w a n 1. a
man w i. I. h a I: n 1. o it y working at Monsanto.
Q . Didyon ever see any d o e. u hi on t. a 1. io n for
p u r p o s e s o f y o u.r f i. I, e 3 r e g a. r d i. ng I: h a t t o r m i n a h i o n ?
A. I don't, reca]] anything in my f i 1 e . The
p o rsonn e I. f i. 1. o s a. r o k e p t 1) y p e r s o n no 1 . And
p e r s o n n e .1 , .i ri o ur fun c: t :i o n , i. s b i g g e r t h a nhi y
d o p a r I: m e n I: . So,Ire h a a'
o t h <5 r r o s p o n s i. b j. 1 i. t: i. e 3 , a. 3
well .
Q. i)o you roc. ail what Mr, Wright's ad 1 ary was
a t. t h o 't i m e h e I. o (: I: M o n a a n t o ?
A. No, Iwould not.. The only thing 1 've got.
i. w h a t w e w e r e t a I. k 1 n g a b o u I: I; h i. 3 m o r n i. n g . 'I.' h a. h
gave mo some idea. And when T looked at that in
p r o p a r a h i. o n f o r t h i. 3 , t d i d n ' t e veil I o o !< I; o s e e w h a t.
t ti e s a 1 a r y w a s .1 d i dn ' t. t h i n k t. ti a f w a y ,
Q . Do yon know whol; her or not Mr. Wright
:r o c: o. ,i v e d a n y 3 n v e, r a rt r. e p a y f r o tn M o n 3 a n t. o ?
A . My i. m p r to 3 3 inn, h e d i. d n o I; .
Q Do you k now what M r . W r 1 g h t is doing si nee 1. 0 f t M 0 n s a. n 1:0 ?
A . Ho a s k a d mo for f 1 e I-, t 0 J" of r 0 0 0 m m v; n d. a t. i 0 n
0 0 u p 1 e 0 l: w 0 0 tc 3 a. g 0 .
Q To w h 0 m ?
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i SB
l A . o w h o m i. t c o n o o r n e d
2 Q 3 fi c c .
3
A . And tic
in y ;i in pro ci ft :i o n , 3.3i a t 3) o '
4 1; n a o h i. n q .... an d i: 'in n o i. s u r e w h a. 1; h o.'s 1; e a. o h i n q -
f) a 1. o n e o f 13i o c :i hy c. o .1 .1 e q os; 1 n 8 t . L o o i s .
6 Q D i. d y u <j i. v o h i m a l other oh 7 r e c. o in in o n d a h ,i o n ?
8 A . Yos .
9 Q - A q o o d .1 o h 3. e r 7 1. 0 A , Y e s .
] 1 0. D :i d you inon t ;i o n in t. 3i e 3 e 11. e r anyth 3 n q 1. 2. about his p v i. o t: p r obi o m s ?
3 3 A . No, 3 d 5 dn 1 1 in e n h 1 o T) 13i a t . X was t a .1 1< A n q
l 4 at)out h i. !3 1; a c. h li i. c a. 1. o a. p a b i. 1.3. 1: y . T h a k ' w h a 1; 1
J 8 a. d d j" f: h s e d 1. fi Q i s o o . 1 7 A . 3 t. wan a vor y short. 3 o h h o r , 'l.oo, .1 in i o 3i h
1 8 add ,
.1 9 Q. 1 u n d or ha n d 2 0 A . And i. 1; was a p p v o v o d by Monsanto.
2 1 0 - Who approved 3 t. V 2 2 A , !` d o n ' k k n o w
2 3 Q We.3 .1 , who d i d you so ml :i 3. t.o 3.0 q e t.
2 4 a p p t: o v a 1. ?
2 b A . 3 3. wool, ho p o :r :! o n n o 1
Si
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I. 0 I s 1; h a 1; M c . B h i. r l e y ? 2 A . NO . W n 1. lb r oucjb Mr. )' e. 1 e Morrow . 3 Q - r ;5 1; h a t; M r . !-i h i. r e 1. y ' i? v e p 1. a. c o in on h ? 0 A . n e work a f or Mr . 8 h .i r .1 o y . 5 Q . ). o e . Had you over boon .inked 1: o r a 6 .1 e 1.1. or 0 f T O C. o III ill o T) d A t'. i O I) b y M :r . Wright uri t. ,i I the 7 L a s L e u plo o C woe k a ? B A . N o , i! :i r 9 Q . T h .i. 0 1. n h h e h i. r a t r e q u o u t'? :i o A . (W i t n e n c Ti o d h h e a d ) i. i Q < D i. d y o u 1;a 1.1< to M r , W r Lgh h -- o r 1 2 D T , w r ,i qh t ? 1.3 A . On L 11e ph (7 no. 1 f\ 0. Who t. d A (3 be le.l .1 you? I. 5 A , H e j U :5 t h a. 1 d , " I ' m 1. o o k i. n g t o r a j o b . J 6 ri o e d a .1 o tier of: r e o o in m e r> d a t n o r> . u I. 7 0. - D i. d ll O in o n 1: L o n h o w he li a p p o n e d t n o a. L J 8 f or a .1 e. t. L e r O f r o c o m in e n d a t A o n ? I 9 A . Mo , :? i. r
2 0 Q . Had y on b e. e. n a d v A i e d t. h a t h o w o u .1 d bo 2 I. c a. 1. 1. i. n g / a. n (.1 w e r o y o u o x p o o t L n g h i. jj c a 1 1. w h e n
2. 2 c: a m e ? 2 3 A . Mo , ii i. r , 2A Q . Wh on y o u i. a l l< e d t. o M r. M o r r OW, W i) !' ; h e 2 5 u c p r tn o < 'i, tha 1; 12 r , W r i. i] h l; had c a. 1. L o d t o r a 1, o t
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I f, 0
I. r (i o o m m e n d rt t. i. o n ? 2 h , Ho d i (In ' l. appear to be ,
3 Q. belt mo show you Dooumo n I; b B 7 4 2 , whi. o. h i n a -1 for-in that was 1 :i ] .1 ed out, I a s s ti in o, that this i
b
M v , H li i. v e I. y 1:s s l <j it a It ti r o a t I; h o b o It I: o m ,
1! w a it I; It o
f'i make sure .if that., .in fact, a a Mr. f> h .i r .1 y ' s 7 u i <.j n a t. u v o .
a h . 1' h a t ' k M r . 9 hi r 1. e y ' s a i cj ri a t \i r e .
9 Q , TIt L s i. s It h o pe r a o it w h o wa t? ce a pon a i. b l o f; o r
.1 o h a nd 1 :i ti p it it e p c;rn o n it o 1 m a 1. it e r h a a ft c i. a t. e (3 w :i th i. h e
in o di e a i. d e p a it It m o n it ?
3 2 h . Y e st ,,
3 3 Q . i si t h i it it h e ft a in e M r , S h i r e .1 y w it o it a d
t 4 i It d i e,t. It fit} t o y o ti y o u nho u l ti n o t a I: It e m p I: t o fti. n d out
3 S w it a it V) cl it p o a ti q o n w i t it the 3 HT matter?
L6
A.
13 i. It Ite r ho o r 9 e It <t M o r r o wwas
I: it o on e It h a It
3 7 1. o i d Ill e a In o u 1. i 1. .
1 B Q T fi that. Mr. B it 5 re .1 y ' a it a n c'i w r i 1. i n q on i. it e 1. 9 I: o t` m >
2 0 A . Yen ,
2 1 Q What, docs i.h a t f o r in i ti d i e a i. c 2 2 M r . W v L pit It ' :5 ..... 0 r , w r i. a It I; ' tt a 1. a r y wa. s a It It It o I. i. m o 2 3 he 1 a f It M o rt a a nto ?
2 4 A . F i. It It y - 1: i. v o It h o u :>' a. n (3 , 7 In Q A n ci i r; i. ii a it c. o rt a i a i. e n i. w i it it w h a i. y o u r oca] 1
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4 b n i. ng th o 1 a.t r i-i c o in m o n d a t i. o n :? you made for his 2 k a ] a :r y V 3 A , .1 d o ti 1 l. r e c a 1 1 . 4 Q What cl on;? Mr. H h i it 1. y Indicate wore the 5 r n a > Oil {! t. h a t Dr. W r :i g h t. wa s; 4. e. r in :i rt a t, e d ti y M o n s a n t o ? 6 A. . 4( o, s 1:. a t e :5 , " i.-l n g a g l n g a o 11 v i. 4; j. o d o t. v i. m on 1; a l 7 4. o Mon f! a n i.o ' a 4 is 4. o. r o a 4. . " 8 Q . W h a. 1; .,i. n 1; i. v i. 1; i. e a a re you awa.ro of that 9 Dr . W r :i g h l. h a d e n g a g e cl :1 n d e 4". r 4 in e n 4. a 1 t o M o n s a n 4: o ' a 1. 0 -i. n 1: o r O ,l; ? 1 ] A . J1' ('. .1 o n y . 1 3 0. . W e .1 4 , 1 f a o in e o n e ha cl boen v. onv 4 c 4. e d of 1.3 l: a i. 1. i. n (j t o 1: i. 1 e a l; a x r e t urn. t h a 1; w a s a 1; e 1. o n y . .1 4 W o n .1 d t. h at. bo adverse to M o ti a a n 4. o ' ?i 4 n t. e r e h 4: ? i. a A . 4 o a n ' t a. n :? wo r 4. h a. 1: k 1 n d o 1: q u o s t Ion. ' i r. Q Yon don't, know w h a 4, 4 4. w a a a b o u 4. 1 7 D r . W r i. g h t ' s a o 1:. 1 v i. t i. e s t h ,i. t w o r o a d v o r :s o t o t h o i n i nt e r e f! 4. o f M o n a a n t o ? 1 9 A . 11 e w a n t o r m 4 n a 4. od for the felony, a a far as 3.0 T w a. h o !. d . 2 J Q . Ok a y. You d on ' t know whether the f a c. 4. that. 3 3 t Vi o m, i. h b o t: h o. w . a s c, onv i. c tod on had to do with O 'J s 1. u 8 :i e p e j" f o r in o o' o a M o n a a n 4. o j> r o d u e 1.s h a d a n y 4.4i 4 n g 2 4 1: o (1 o w i. t h 1: h a t ? 2S A . N o , a ;i r .
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I f. 2
I. Q. Thank you.
2 i1 e f o t e wo I. a r t <: d u p a f t o r t h e .1 n n c. h
3
b riiak,
hamlnd you three mu.go.x I non t hat have
4 a r I. i c. 1 v. k in the in relating to If H T and asked you to
b take alook at thorn to nee If I: hat re fire shod your
6 r e c. a1 .1 ec t.i o n a bon t h a v i n g a e en 1.h e a rt .i c. .1 e a ,
7 r.i o t. me auk you ft. rut about the article
B t h a 1 a p p o a :r e d 5 n t. h e " A in 5 c n s J o u r n a il " .1r> t he up r :t n g
9 of: 1983 , beg i. n n i ng at; Page 1.4 o I; th.itjournal,,
1 0 o: n t. ;t t .1 e d " }' a k i n g ;i t. : T h e ft a h e A q a i n .c; t. 1 n d u t. r 1 a il
I. I. B i. o 1.e u t Ba bo ra 1 o r i. e n . "
1 2 B a d y o o a e e n t h a t a r t5 c. il eb of or o ?
L3
A . No.
f. d o n ' t r e r. a 1 L h a. v I n gn e e n 1 t ,
.1 <1 Q. bet me auk you next about, the; -- no , I 'hi
I. b sorry -- t. he ,)'ti n e l 0 k h , 1983 , i. uuue of"to ienon"
1 fi m a g a x i n e , t h e a r t j o il e. a p p e a r i n q a t P a. qcj. 1 13 0 a n d
I. 7 f o 1.1 o w i. n g , o n t i. t 1. e it " 'I.* h o M u r k y W o r 1 d o f T o x i. e 1 t y
JB
T e n 1.t r> g .
)' o u :r n c :i e n t .i ;; t r; a r e o n t rialf o r f r a u d i n
1.9 a easetli.it ban cant doubt on the safety of 200
2 0 p e s t i c. i d e a o n K V h ' u in o n .i t o r i rt qp r o c e d u r o s . "
2 I. F ( a d you r o a d I; h a t a r t. i. c I. e b e f o r e ?
2 7.
A,
No I. tha 1. .
I t c o u il d ha ve bo e.n x erox ed , a nd
2 3 1 might, have read. it. that way, That'n the way L
2 4 would h a v e road it i fI had at. all,
2 3 O , 0 k ay, r u n d e r u 1: a. n d , li really w ,.i u n ' t n o
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.1 A 3
I. <: o n t'. c-x r n nd o ho u I*, w h o I; h e r y o u h ad I; h e o r i g i. na I.
?. in a q a y. :ine .in yoor hand vnrsmi a xerox --
3 A. I'm .1 1. a' o not; mu re; It road I; ho. I: becon so
4 1. hi e ..... b ;i m j .1 a r 1 h ;i n y s w (a r e, p n b 1 .i s h e. d o t hi o r p 1a <: e s .
8
15 o, I may not; - T don't; hhi. nk I non. d I; hat:. ,
hthink
6 X :r e a d a xi abridged ve r s 5 on o f t. h a 1. s o in e p X a c: e .
7 Q An a. bridged v o r is i,on ? 8 h . Yes. X t. w a i a short, e Tied f o r in o f - -- .i t. w a s
9 s o m o. 1; h i. n g loss khan a p <). g , a s I! reo o. 1. 1. h a v i. ng r e a d
I 0 s o in v. i. h ;i xi g about Idiot.
I. I Q , Hub cent; alni ng Idle same 1; y p g o t
] ?. a ti f o t in a i. a on -
1.3 A . Y tx s .
:i 'i Q - -- 1. hi a t :i s a ti t. hi e a r t. ,i e X o t hi a t. a ji yi e a r ed .5 n I. 8 1; ti o. J' u n o 1. 0 b h , 1 9 8 3 -
.1 f A . Y e s .
I 7 Q ... - v o 1 u. hi o o r " b C i. (X n c o " ? x a A . Yes ,
I 9 Q.. !' r o in y o u :r r e v a e w o f t hi e a T" t. i c X e t. hi a l. d o e s ;> o a. p poo r i n i.lio Ju.no 10 b h , 1. 9 B .3 , v o 1. iim xx o 1; " 3 e i. o n n e , "
2 1 do you b e .'1 a e v e t. b e a hi r a d q e in e n h. w a xi d o n e hi y X. a i< i r> cj
3 2 o u. 1; s e c I; j. o n ?
2 3 A . X suspect, so . Tb a t. * s whi a, t. w c w o u X (X a hi i" i d g
3 4 i, r, .
2 8 Q . 0.1; ay. 1) i d t. h o a b r :i d q o m o ti 1. c. o n t. a i n t h e
NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
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1. p a raij ra pb 1'. It a. 1; began. " A p a v 1: i. o u 1 a. r 1. y a e n s i. I: i. v o ?. n e f; t i o n i s 1. 3)0 dogre o w h .i c 3) M o ti fi a ti '1. o w a awa ta of 3 w It a 1: wa a ha. pp e n i. n g " '? Do you know if tha. I; pa. rag m pl\ <1 tdii-it. bogi n n - t h c> f.i :r 1. f ti 1 .1 pa r a qr aph c> l. C o i u m n y. b on Pag e !. t 3 1. w a o in h h e a. b v i. d g o in e n 1; t Ina 1; y o u 6 r e c. e. i v n d ? 7 A . 'I' h a t ' si a t. a ,r 1'. 3 n g , " W h :i .1 o T C 0 h a s .i n 8 Mon n a n 1; o " - -
9 fi No . The. not: o ik] o o ] u in n o n id) a t p fi g c - -
0 A . 0ka y 1 a - - f S r f! t. f. u J .1 para.grapti at i.he t a p - - 2 A . bin . 3 G -- "* J t bogina r ,i g ii t a b o v o t ii e p .i a t.ure of 4 Dr. C. a 1. a n d r a , b W a a t3i a t pai agr iijdi i n i.iie a b r j d q e d 6 v o r i. o n 1: h a. (. you. cfot ? 7 A . 1 d o T) ' t :r e c a .1 .1 . 13 () . r a o o . 1) i. d you road in fho abr i d q e d 9 v e. r n 3 o n t h a t yon got t. h o ti o x t j) a r a g r a p h :i n t h e. 0 m i. d d 1 e e o 1 u m n on Pa. cjo l. 1. '.) 1. , w It t c h t a l k s a b o u l; 1 M o n ;! a ti t. o 3i a v i n q it 1 i 4' c: 3) a n g j n g t h o w a r d :i n g 0 n > o m o1 y. a t u d i. o s r o g a i; d i. ng PtH f s .3 h . N f' , that ..... i didn't. :: o o that. 1 know .4 t It ,i. l; . i: d o n ' f coca 1. 1. h o o i n g t, h a 1; j) a r 1; o I: I: h a I; . b G . Wh on did yon f :i r ,ri f 3) e. e o m o a w a :r o of the fact
NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
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hha I: M o n s n I; o risknd TOT I: o change I; ho wording on
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1 2 MR. I. A f! K y : I nee. Well , maybe you
13 don't know enough about:, the cane. Wore you present,
J -5 or did you rc-carl Dr, b :i v 1 n u e u a ' testimony?
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2 b Q ( By Mr, b a e e y ) D i. d M o n s a n h o p e. r s o n n e l
NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
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1 Ci fi
I r o p o r 1; i n g to you in h h o mod i. c a 1. d o p a. r t m o n t. a :3 k T. RT 2 t o c: b a n g e. t b o w o :rd .3 n g O Tt e; o in o o f 3 tE! t u d 3 e. e: 3 r o g a r d i n g 1? 0 R ' :? ? 4 h . 0 u .i" g o n o y a .1 r u 1 O i SI that wbon a rcpor t .3 e; 5 w r i. 1; 1: on, wo o n 1: a. c k o a. oh o n o o II t: h e o o n 1:. t: a. o t i. n g f. a t) e non e. e: a n d a r, k t b (-; in 3 r 1. h a 1. ' ri what they moan t t o 7 a. y A n d w o w L 1. 1. b c i n g u p k h i ngwhe r o wo k Ii i. nk a. r e B .i n con ei 3 > t. on 1. , W o ' 1.1 b r 3 n g u p t h 3 n g ! w h o r o w e t h 3 nk 9 t h a 1: t ho i. r ..... t: h o i. v c o n c 1. u :5 i o n o r 1: li c i. r p r e m 3. 15 O 13 o n 1 0 w h :i c: h t b o. y d 3 d the El 1. u d y c a n bo wrong. Thorc' f! a L I. wli o 1 e ll O E3 1: t: h h i n g ;5 t. h a 1: w o dual, w i. tli, o. very o n e o l: 1 2 of our st\id i os , Hu t. we don't -- wo. don't, a lto.nipt to 1.3 oh ango tho l: a c k c t. h a t p v i n 1: o d . A 1. 1 w e d o l s t o in a k o :l -1 Ei u r e 1. b a t t b o y b a v o w h a t 3 n f o r mation they n o e d t o i. y> w r i. t o a. c o r r o c t r o p o r k , i f, Q . 1 d o n ' 1. t h 3 n k t b a t w a ei r e 3 p o n a 3 v e t o 111 v L 7 g u o 1; i. o n . M y q u o ;3 t. i o n i. :3 ; 0 i. ii i5 o m o one i. ri t h ft I B mod 3 call do. partment o / Mon;; a n t o , r o p o r 13 n g t o y o u l 9 a :3 k, I B 'll k o change tho word i. n g o n o n o o r m o c o of 1 1; ;3 2 0 e; t n d 3 e ei r o 1 a 1.3 rtg t o POH ' ei ? 2 I. A . i: h a v ii r o v/ i o w o d w h a. k tho documout ;5 wore ...... 2 2 t ti a t 1.3 v 3 n e; c u a li a d -- b u t If d 3 d t b a t o n S a l. ii r d a y ... ,,. 3 all. ol; wlu I: ' :3 1: r o m 1. i v L n :3 c u :3 , A. ml I: h t; 2 4 3 ri t o r p t o t. a t .3 o n o f in a k 3 n g 3 t c o n ei 3 ei 1. o n 1. a c :r o e; e; a 1 II o l 2 b I; ho ;i 1; ii ft 1 o ;3 k h a 1'. w o r o don o w a. it ono thing I r ft c a 1. 1
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I f. 7
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f. d e c. :i f! .i on .
7 . X fi o c i , S o, .1 t. ' fi y o u r t e a t i in o n y , j f 1
8 u n d.e r h hand no i: v o o h i y, I: h .a 1: nobod y e v n v a s k o d any ho o d y 9 1. o c. hi a n y e t. hi e. w o rd i ny ; a .1 .1 y o u a i: )< o cl w a , " '8 o
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1. 9 A . Y o a .
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2 I. I; h n w 1 7 ri o s oh I; ho. I i vers of: I: ho, rah-.5 i. n q u o h I; i. o n
2 2 sihowed more than jusit s .1 i y hi. t. u mor i y e t> n :: i u , d :i d r> ' 1
2 3 i h. '?
2 4 A. f would have to re fro fib my memory on what
they ;i (i i il . X don't roc a. I. I :: p o c i. r i. r:a I. I. y . T know i. I,
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d. i. d r e I: o c I', o I: h o m b o i. ng t.? 1 i g h t 1. y I: u m o r i. g o n i. c . () . No. '.{ know. 7 1 m sorry . That.'!'! not. my
.1 q uo I; i. on . My q ue s L i o n i. s no I: w ha I: I:. h o i. r r opo r I; d /; a :i d , 5 A . 7 o :? , 6 Q. My guent.ion .i r; what the facts wore . 7 7 o u wont; to IB l1 andlooked at: wilder
a o f 1 h o <! o r a t .1 1 v o r n , d 1 ('i n ' t y o u ?
9 h . Vo :3 , sir, I 0 Q . A n (1 t h e y n h o w o d in o r e 1. h a n j n a t n 1 5 cj h (.
I; u m o v i gon <=>. n i s , d L d u ' t t h o y ? J. 3. h T h o d e f :i n .1 15 o Ti w h a t " 1.1 q h t " hi c; a h s .
13 Q W c; L 1 , d 1 d n ' t you 1, nil mo before the lunch
1 -1 b r o ak t h a t y o u w o vi .1 d n ' t. c. h a r a c t e :r 1 x o 1 t a u j n a t i. a " ;? 1. i. g 1) t " ? i f> A :r f - 1 7 Q V O il d i d, , d i. d n ' L y o u ?
:i a A y e. r .
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3 3 hi u a n t by " 1 1 q h 1. . "
3 3 (> W e .1 1 , .1 ot ' put .it thin way; The word:: 3 4 1: h a 1. y o u u i3 n d i. n a n n w i; r 1 n (j in y (j u e a 1: i. o n b o J: o r o w o 2 b t o o ]< lunch ~~ and 1 a R k fi d y o u J! p o c. :i f :i c a 1 J y a b out.
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I f. 9
I. w h o l; h o v you would ;5 a y *' :> 1 i. (J I: t it 2 A . You d :i cl .
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L 7 1j r , h i. v i n :? c un ugge h 1. od t h ,i t t h o 1. a ngu.ujo of: 1; h o
1 B report fib on .Id bo c. b ranged to delete the ro fere Tice to
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7.0 e v :i d e n o a o f r. a r c. .i n o g n e a j s , " o o r r e o t ?
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2 2 q vi o a 1.1 O Ti a s b o i t ) q a a si u in :i ti g a fa c: t n o t :i ri i: v :i d o n c. n . 2 3 T'li e 1. o 1: 1: o r a p e a k:3 1: o r i. t a o. I. Ci a a to what. i. 11: a i. d, a. n
2 '1 .i t. (1 1 d r> ' t nay 1. h a 1 N o m a 1.I. e r how many t.'i m o s y o u 2 5 a a y i 1: / the 1ft 1: K n l. d 0 o a n ' l: a a y 1 t .
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2. a. (My Mr. .1, a c, ay ) )) o y o u w a n t to a n ft w e r 1. fie 3 qiiR i? 1; i. o n on wlu h h a. p p o n o d ? 4 A . When we 1. a 1 )< a b o u t " 1. ii in o :r 1 cj e 'n :i c " a n cl
5 " o a r o 1 nogn n i. o , " h hoy ' r e 1; w o cl i. f f: e r o n t s u 1) j o o 1: s A n d f> 1. o r. a y t h at they ' :r e ti o t e a 3" c j nog e ti :i e 5 a a a y 1 n q that 7 1; h e y ' r a 11 g h 1; 1. y 1: uino r L <jo n i. c . 1t.'s h wo d i. f: f o r on 1; - -
8 .1t ' ft a d ;i f f o r e n t ,i a t.e:r p>r e t a 1. .1 on c oin pi e t c: 1 y .
9 Q - firth's s rtt that one an i.de tor a second :i o W1) a 1 1 ' in 1. r y :i n g 1. o f ;i ti d o u t. 1 fi ; Dr . L :i v ;i n fi c \i
i. i S UtJ(J n vs h c d h o I. B T t It cs y d o 1 e 1. o 1: It o r o 1: o r o it c o h o
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:i o Q . :i an ' t 1. b a 1. corr <-* c t ? 15 A . The oh her one:) ha d already said, "Wo' r o n o 1:
.1 r> c a r c. :i T) o q o n i c. . " 1 7 il 1) o v. t o r , t. h <: p r o p o jt o d r o p o r 1. f r o in T H T w a 1.8 1. h a 1. p (: b 1 :? a r o ;j 1. 1 a h 1. 1 y It u m o r i q on i. c , c o r r oc t ? 1 9 h . 1 Ti O n (: of those 1. \imor a. if n erne of th e. in 2 0 Q . [,rI;'s L a. 1. k ,i. b o ii. t h It a. 1; r e p o r I; h It a t: w .a a 2 1 o h i) g i; (1 . J want t.o f o o ti ;; o n that report .....
2 2 A . A !. 1 !.' i ij h h .
2 3 0. 2.4 0 k a y >
l.hid. y o n a n cl 1 b o t h a cj r e e w a :s c h a n cj o d .
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17 1
t. 0.. The report. propound by IBT wan 1: h a. t kli e 2 cn ' u w a r e si .1 :i q hi 1. ;i y t. u in o r .1 g e n i c - ~
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9 Q And your own review. had you revi owed the I. 0 1. i. d o b , would no t have been " o 1. i. g h 1: k u in o r i. g o n o `.3 i. u ,
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got. tb a 1. report., bo wrote burl? l.o HIT
1. 8 .1 n <t n u g g e u I; o rl. I; h o y <1 o !. e i; e a n y r o f: e r n c e k o " :3 l i. (J h I:
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I. roc,-! 1. I. it, the .1. ot. I: e r i. s going to up oak tor' it;? oil:, 2 I)a v o .
Q, (lly Mr. Lacey) '( want, toknow the 4 ;? u b :? t.a n r. e o L w h i. h a p p o n o d . A n d i. I: y o u <1 o n ' t k n <3 w , ii y o u can } uat May you don't, know. t'oo.1 f r o e to flay 6 you don' h know; but i. I: you know, I want you to toil 7 in o, .in your- own words , e xaot.ly what. happened. 8 A. i w a. s 11 ' t i. nvo Ivfid in the actual, wri, ting of 9 1. ii a 1 i o t to :r o r t. ii o - - why t h o .1 o 11. o r w a s w r .i 11 n . I. n That w,.ui f. i v i. n ;? c u:? who wrote it. i ] Hul. if 1 had done .it, 1 wouJd have L 7> d <3 n n t ho c ,.i m e t h i n g . 3 3 Q. And what h o asked them to do was to del etc: 1. 4 a n y v c f: e i` one o t o " t. u m o r i. g o n o :? i :? , " c o r v o c t ? 3 b A . No, fi .i v . 3 fi Q . Pi dn ' 1. you j u a t te I i me t ha t - - t.r i k e I. 7 t h a t . 3 8 MH . KKDKHWAI.Di Why don't you dhow him 1.9 I: ho Letter, D.ivid, rather t han a;? king for recall? 20 I moan -- 2 .1 MR , I, AC HY : No . :i 'm trying 10 - ?. 3 M U . PRIJ !! U W A L D ; Th i. ;? i ;? g e t 1: i n g t0 b e ?. 3 absurd to - w h a 1. ho ..... what t h c .1 e t to r m c\ i d w b 0 n 3.4 you ' v 0 g0 t i t i. n front of you ( W h y d 0 n ' t y 0 u n h <3 w 2b i t to h i m ?
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I. MH .. LACMYj 1 1; ' :s no 1. abu u r d a t a ?. .1 J e. o n d u o 1. 1. h e o x a in ,i n a t. :i Oil the way I w a n t. t o n MB ,. !' K B K f.l W AM): W o 1. 1. , 1 h 's uniiai 4 MR .. l'.ACBY r :t t1' n ri o t u n f a .i r , r> Q , (By M r . I'm), c e y ) 9 1 ^ n't you j u s 1: t e 1 l m o 6 t h a 1. '' 1. u in o r i <je ti e, a .i i; " a ti d " c a r c :i n o g e n ,i c. i t. y " a r e t w o 7 d i t: loriin I; thi. ngn? B A . T hoy 1 x- o a c o n t. i n u u in , 9 Q . You o a n have a humor I;. ha 1 1 s e a r c i. n o go n L c. or 1 0 n o Ti c a t c. 1 ti o q o n j c , c. a n ' t you? 1 l A . '!.' h a. 1:. ' u r i. g h 1,. 1 ?. ft - A .1 .1 right. And t o s a y t. h a t. y o u li a v e a 13 t u m o r , you' r e p a r I: w a y d. o w n 1. h a !: c o n 1:1 n u u m 1: o w a. r d .1 4 r. a n o e r , a r c; n ' t y o u ? I '5 A . Yon . M a y b o . I 6 ft. M o w , 1. ho report 1. b a t t BT proponod t o p u i I. 7 o u 1, s a i. < 1 l: 1) a. t there was :? o m c 1; u m o r :$ t h o r o ,, <j. i (.1 n ' l: .1 B ,i l. ? 1 9 A . Ye . 2 0 Q Th a t ' ;i partway d o w n t ti o r o a d t o c a n e e r ? 3 I. A . Y n s , M a y b o . 3 3 () - W h a t. 1) r . b i v :i n u r, \i n r e c. a m m e n do d w a fi t h a t 3 3 1. h ,i l; c 0 I1 o r o n r. o to tumor:; / o r being partway d o w n t '? 4 t oa d to c. a Ti e o r , h e d e 1 o t o d , wa s ti ' t i t. ? 3.9 A . Mo , :? i. r .
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i M U . F R u K HWAI, D ; Now, y o u ' v e q o t y o u r ?. a T) n w o' r , ]) a v :i d 3 M R . I'.ACKY { F i. U (3 /I M lx1 . FlMlNnWAId) r Ail right. You don' r> 1. i k o 1 b. b u h Y o u ' v (3 y o 1; 1 1; . <r> MR . bACKY ; Thai. 'si fine. That's? 7 f: i. n o i:' 1 i. d. o a. I w i. L h t h a 1; i. h a. m i. 13 u 1; e . 8 Q - (by Ml- . 11 a <3 e y ) )) r . b i v i n ss e u ft si vi g cj 03 si t e d 9 1: h a t 1:. h o y p u t. i. n 1: h a 1; t h t-3 r 03 wa s no <3 v j. dc3 n n tv o 1:
:i n <: a :r c. i n o cj <'. 0 i c .i 1. y , c orrec t. ?
i. i A . Y (3 !3 , <; i. r , :i 3 Q 0 )< a y * A ti d 5 1. ' s? you T' u n d c-i t a t a ri d 1 n g t h a t. 1 1.3 w a. n h l n i. n t e n 1; i. o n 1: o 1. o a v 03 i. n t Iv t-3 r c3 f: o3 r e n e e 1: o t h e 1 4 tvnnorn, 1, fi e, referfiiice that, would be ..... indicate you I. f5 W fi C 03 |)Ot fi n 1:. i. a 1. 1 y p a r t way down tho-3 road to ova n o e r , i 6 c o r r a c 1. ? 1 7 A . Ar: I< t. hat qft s? 1.1 o ri a. g a :i n . I. B i: t * ;> yo u v u rule r t? ka nd i. n <j 1: h a t Dr. r. i. v i n ii c u :i 9 f! U Oj OJ e S! t c d t o 1 11T they .1 e a v e i n t h e r o f e r e n c e t o 2 0 t. u in o r b u h j U :? 1: .3. d d ,3. r tv Ii o r o n o o , "no cancnr" > 2 :i A . Ye Cj 3 3 Q O It ;> y O ): a. y , ).) o y o u )< n o w w h o a t M o n si a n t o 3 3 1; o o k t h o 1 (3 v d i. n d o .1. 1. i. n o./ w 1 i: h D r . [< i. m b r o u oj h ' ti 3 4 o ii s; e r v a t. i o n ` / 1. h c r c: I a t. i o n ;? h i p be two fin PC)1 1 :? a n d 3 3 b I. a d. (1 o r c, a. n e o v ?
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t A , T, 1 v i i) :? r. u s wa s I; h oro wlu;n I: h a I; u u b j to o L wa 2. cl ;i j> c u ! f? o c'l . 3 Q . Do you know .if h e ' a the pore; on who wan 4 r o m p o n u i. b i to n o r 1: h a ! .? b A . (No 7" o u p O Tl f! o ) a Q V o r 1; h o :? <o d 1. a c u :? a i. o n ;3 o n b o h a 1. 1: o 1: 7 Mon an lo . B A . Y e;? . 9 Q Wh o n you got. to Mon a an ho, you bo c a in o 1 0 f .1 in i. 1. i. a r w i. 1; h t. ho. pen |) r o l) 1. o m , d i. d y u D o t. ? .1 J A . Wh a t )1C H p :r o b .1 e in ? 2I. Q - T h o p r o b 1. o m o f 1? C B I-, o x i. c i l;y a n d w h a t. 1 3 off o c*. t. a j t m :t g ti t c, a u a o , I. 4 A . T h o c to ' a a, w h o 1. to ra n g o o I: t. h i. n g a w o ' r o I b 1. a .1 If i n g a b o u 1'. . A ro you talking about, onv i r o n m c-i n t. I (S t'X I,"1 Y o u 1; a. 1. k i. n tj a b o u t o c o u p a I; i. o n a 1. to x p o u run; a r o 1 7 y o u L a 1 I? 1. n ci a b o u t. 1:. ox i 0. o 1 o g y , o. x p o r i in o n t. a 1 I. 8 1; o x i. 0 o 1. ocj y? W h i. c h o n to ? I 9 Q . 1) i d you in a k o y o u r a o. 1 f f a in 1 liar wit. It t h o 2 0 o x p to c L in to n h a 1. 1; o x 1 c o 1. o g y o n I? C B ' ;3 a fit. tor you camo l ?. :i M O T) a a /11. o ? 7 7 A . T w o n 1 o v o r t. h o 1 HT a 1. 11 (1 1 O. S' . 1 was; a pa 3 3 o 1: L h a I-. 4 . Di d you ..... did you go i n 1, o t. h o K i m b r o u g h 3 B t ud j. o u o n b 1. a <1 <1 o r r. n. n o to r ?
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I A , No . y Q Okay. You novo r reviewed t hat matter 3 A . No .
4 Q . Okay, So, you k n o w n o l. h :i n g about, any
3 o x p I a n a. 1!; i. o n or anyth! ng tli at. would s ugges t. why 0 s t. u d :i e;; a rt: :i T) 0 o tt o c t ; i s that right y
7 A. r ... - when you say -- it has somo t*.h i. n<j ho do
8 w i t) i t. h e. d e j> t. h of :i nvo.l v e m e n t. . :i k n e w a h o u t. h e r
9 h n. v i n g s o in e c o n c o. r n s a. b o ij h t h e b I. a d d e r r. a n e e r s .
1 0 Q. You 1 earned y bout that, after you came to
1 I. Mon s .i n t o ?
13
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Yoa ,
J 3 0. H o w d i d y o n J o.arn a bou t t ha t.? 1. 3 A , }? v o m f, L v i. n s r. us .
J 9 Q H e t o 1 d y o u a 1:> n u t. t. h a t p r1 o b 1 e in ? 18 A . Yes .
.1 7 Q. 0 i d he t.e ] 1 y on he' d g o t l. e n i t. h a n d 1 e d ?
I 3 A . Mo , It wasn ' l: ha nd l ad .
1 9 Q n.i d a n y b o d y o- v e r d o a n y t h :i n g t o c o u n t e r a c t
2 0 t h a I; ?
2 1 A , No ,
2 2 0 * Di d yon even" m a ]; o a n e. f f o r 1. t o d e t. e r m i n e
2 3 whether o r n o t there was any ovi. donee o 1: exposure ol
7A M o n H a n t o w o r k e r a t o P 0 H ' s j n f )> 3 r o c c u p a t i o n ?
7 9 A , `t ho. program was ongoing, and t didn't, got.
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1. i. n v o 1 v o d w i. T, h w h .a 1: 1, h e i. n dun 1; c i.. 1. h y (j i. o n i ;i h n w n r e ?. cl o ;i n cj . 3 Q - V) i d M o n f> a rt 1. o o o rt d u o t blood todies? of.' It S'. 4 o m p 1 o y ft O !3 ? 5 A ,, Y e jt . 6 0. 1) :t d y o u o v o :r d o 1. o r in :i n o w h a 1'. t bosso studio Si 7 :3 h o w o d. 0 fi A . No . 9 Q bo, ycnt do not know w h o t h e r or not. th e. 1. 0 ;3 h u d i. u ;3 u (j cj o :3 1: o d Llioro wo co a. n y o c o u p a 1: i o n a 1. -t y p 0 J 1 o x p o o r <'. ] o v a 1 si i n M o n h a Ti t o o m p .1 o y c-: e n 7 1 7. A . Thai', woul d b o d o n o by i. iidussl: r i. a 1. h y g i. o n o 1 3 ft , A n d y o u d o rt ' t k n o w what the: :r o si u 1 t. si were 7 1 4 A . No . .1 9 a - bob mo a k y o u t o .1 o o k a 1. a Docu Kicuit .19 - L 6 T ' m u o >: r y . b o L mo ,t:ik you 1; o 1 o o k ..i f: a p o o u in o n i:. :i 7 b 3 0 2 .1 , w h i c h ,i s a 1 ss o P .1 a i n 1.5 f f 1 u K x h :i b i t 1 cl 3 1 in I.H 1', ll i. H (3 a t3 o . J 9 A . (W :i t 'rt o h s; o O )fl p .1 i o st ) 3 0 ft I b o 1. i. (A v o 1; Ii a. 1; ' si a d. o o u m o n h Lhal; rfiporlui o n 3 3 b .1 o o d ft a til p .1 o 1 o v o J c< 7. 2 A. . Yon . 7 3 Q - A;! a modi cal doc. !.o r , a:ro you a b 1 o t o t a 1 .1 2 4 1: l\.j 1; ' ;3 w h a. 1:. i. Ii a u , i. si i. n 1: o r in a 1: i o n o n b l o o d w a. in p 1. o 2 b 1 c.ve.l i't 7
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1 A . YO3 9 Q . Do t h o o .1 e v o ,1 s there shown ref.ii :ct any 3 o e cn pa 1; i. o no, 1. e x p o 3 u, re ?
A , No, t h e y do Tl o t b Q Are i. h o :) e blood samp 1.03 that, on : o r d i. ini' 6 that d o c u in e 7) t , wore taken from Monsanto emp] oyoen?
7
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R u I: Ui i. u was done in 1.973, and n
8 p r a b n b TI v w on .1 d Tt 1 t a c c o p t. t. h e ;i r m e t h o d o .1 o rj y a a b ei n q
9 a c. o a p I; o d . To d. a. y t h a. !'. w o U 1 d. n ' I: b o a c. r, o p t, o d .
:! o 0 . I S e e .
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whal: wo in'; mi i. s I; o have the
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I 4 Q . I s e o , 9 o , t h a h ' u no I; a v e r y m o a n 1 n a IT u l
1 ';> ro p ort7
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Q. ok) y . Do you know wlie then or no!', any
:i 8 s i. u d i e ::: w e :r- e e v e :i" c. o n d u c 1. e d 1. h a t h a d 1.. h e a ji p :r o p :r :i a +. 1. 9 1. o v o 1. o IT y o n :? i. 1 i. v i. 1; y i. n o r d o r t o d o h o r m i. no who l;h o r
2 n M o n s a n t o o in p TI o y r: c: s w h o b a d vi o r k o. d w :i t h l' c n ' r. s h o w e d
2 1. o e o u pa 1; i. o 11,1. 1. i- V P o exposures ?, ?. A . W c cl i d no 1. because we got out o l t h e
2 .1 b n. i n o 3 a i. n ' 7 h . A n d L t a l. ' s about I; lie i: i. m a w h e n
2 TI in o t. h o d s ;t n s t b e cj an to start to .improve 7. b U D i d y o u ever coihIii cl;, any stud. i. e u o n
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o m p 1. o v no whohud worked in I; he process h nfioro you
got., out. of it to jo
what their love: Jr: showed?
3 A . Mo , i. r, wo d. i. d i\o i. .
d Q . S> o , M o (i a rt I. o h a n o e v i d e n c. e o f a
s c i. oii h i f:i. c na I: ore i, o show w hot. hot; i) r no I; a n y o.l:
6 t h e 1r e in p Joy e o a c: v o r e x p e r i e t> o a d J e v e 1 ao fe x p o a u r o
7 i: o i? C R ' a a ho vo who. I; t. h o y might, gel; in the
fl e Ti vi r onm e n t. ; ia t.h n 1. o or r oc. t ?
9 i\ . Wo - - wo took industrial, hygiene
J n id o au :r e in e ti t.a n d in c*. a a u r o d t. ti o. i i e x p o a u :r o ; b u I. t. it a 1. ' a
I L .i 1. I. , I: It n i. n d u s I; r I. a 1. h y g i. o n o i, u ti i. e s .
i ?. Q . A n d 1. h a1. d ocs n ' t. a n y w e r t. iio q u e. a 1.1 o n o f
1.3 who); got into I; Ito i. v bodies, id! any); Iti.ttg, does it?
:i 'i A . We 1 .1 , t h e. y ' r e w ea a u r .i n gt h <: s a m e t h ,i ng .
0 n o i. s o. ho I: I; e rmo o s u. re i. ho n 1; h o o t. It o r .
Q . W h i c. It i t h e it o h. i. e rm o a r: n re ;w h a 1. 'a i tt
i. h e i. r b o d y ?
1 B A . Wit a t. ` a i n t. it c:: 1 r b o d y .
i 9 Q. < lot i. ill e u It o vi y o u o D o r. u in o n i. 5 8 4 4 15 , 2 0 P J a :i rt t i f r a K x it :i ti i t. 1 d 3 h , a m e m o f t o tn P a \t 1 Wright t
2 1 you , d o I; ltd 0 c. i. o b e r 1. 3 h It , 1 9 7 3 .
2. 2. A . y u , :: ' r 2 3 Q. Wit !.! ill ,-l 1, memo wr i 1. 1 e n to V oil s b o r' . .1 y a f t. e :r 3 4 you 0 0. Ill o o rt It O 0. T d n I; M o n o n h o ?
2 b A . :i j o ,i rt a d tit o m t n M a i" c it . T ii i a w a a 01". i. o b e r .
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I. Q W ,1 H th.it part o f .... in o m o w r 1 I; 1:. e n to you as 2 part of t h p;roc:p.!i!i on b r .i ncj.incj you u p t. o speed on
3 the pc:n f > r o b 1. e m?
A A . Y e r; . :r ' hi :i i 1.1. i e b i l. i! u r p r1 a e d why 1 w a ;.i
5 on the a rl d. r o s s e e a. 1 o n e e a We. .1 ;i - 7 A . A n cl T ' 111 T! O t. f! n r e why .i 1 w a <j a d cl r e s s e d t o m <
8 i. n that w a y
9 Q I n the ordins r y c o U T s o o f b u a 1 n e n n , y o u I 0 won 1. d n ' t b o r: o e e i. v i n g r o u t in e me m o s 1: c o m Paul Wi'Lght
:i :i a d d r o a a ci d d ,5 :r e o. 1. .1 y t o you ; i a t h a t r. orro e t ?
i. ?. t\ , Yes , I w o u 1. d . Oh / you . i: wou ld g e I: - - L
] 3 (J a l. -- '1 would be gett lug freyn exit memos from --
l 4 f r o m Paul on things that ho thought I was i. n tern h tod
1 !-) :i n .
] f. Q Maybe 1 d i d n ' 1 a fi k hi y (] u e. s t .i o n w oil , '1' h e 1. 7 n o r m a. 1. re po rt l ng c h a i. n f o r P a u 1 w o u l d b e h o r e p o r t.
1 8 to D:r , I < i v i n s c u a , w h o , .i n t U T T) , w o u 1 d r e pc)r f t o y o u 1. 9 and. you m i. g It t. r o c e 1 v e 0 c T .r>t O f 1\ 1 s m e m o
2 0 A . A t t h a t. l, .1 III o. , you s e o , b.i v .i n c u s , '.( i. h i ri k ,
2 i.
wan repo r t. i. n g t o W h e e 1. e t:
<3 o , i. 1; W .1 s - -
7.3. Q - An d P a u .1 W :r i g h t W (A s r e p o T t ;i n g d .i r o r. 11 y l. o
23 you?
2 4 A . N o , n o . H e W tJ :r a p o T t .i n q 1. o 1.1 V in !i cna, wh
2 9 w a r o p o r I: i. n g t o W h e e i. e r ,
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1. Q W h o w a. i? , T. h o n , roporki ng I:o who? rs.\ A , T o K o ! 1 y . And .1 w a n )< ;i ri d o f a b y s; t a n d o r . 3 c) i k e <3 . 3 A . :i wd s 1. :r v i n g 1. o 1 ciirii what, was going on, 3 a n d !. 1: o o u 1. d w o. 1. 1. bo him!; I wan h a 1. k i. n g ho him about: 6 t h :i n til. Tidy a ri cl t h i a w a f! a w a y of -- of b r ft n g .i n g in e 7 u p 1: o da I; o. H 0. D i d y o u u n d o r a t. a n d f r o m 1. h e m o m o t h a t. 9 D r . W r 1 g h 1: w i; o h e 1: o y o u blink ho had boon involved in 1 0 1. h e .... a 1 T 1ST j n Uio l.o ;i 1.3 n g p r o g r a in t. h a t h o I. I d o n 0 c i. b e a i. n 1; h e m o m o ? i :> h . I d j d T] 1 1. draw 1. h a t. r. o n c: .1 u s :i o ti f r o in 1. h a t. . 1.3 Q . M o , no. My .... 1; h a t ' s n o 1; m y q u o n t 1 o n . J 6 Wo ro you a w a r o o f t h o f a c. 1. t. h a t. P a u .1 I b W r i. a h h -- J 6 A . Had wor !;ed on 1 h o A :r o c 1 o r? 1 V Q ..... !m cl w o i k. d o n 1; h o u o n 1; u d. i o h a h I B '1' ? J B A . .1 d 3 dn 1 t. know 1 b a 1 . And .'( h a d n ' t !< n o wn i t . 1. 9 Q I S O (3 . When d i. d y o u. ,f; i r 1: 1. o a r n 1: li a b ? 2 0 A . 1 didn' 1. over )( T) o v/ ,i 1. . 2 I. Q . V. O U 11 O V C; L k |1 (3 w k h a 1: ? if i r s 1: !; i. m o y o u ' v o 2. 2 f:V(: r 2 3 A . The ono t h <j 1. i know ho wan world rig on wan 2 4 o n T cc:.
Q . I aoo .
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A . An d t It a. I; ' s a. 1 I ,
{) , )).j d you ever .i d(]t) :l rc: of Paul Wright what
3
n laid
he had worked on ah 119 T I: o r Monsanto?
4 A . Mo , :i r .
3 () . 10 on .id yon a pro e that, iibnorifia.l .1 :i vcr
(S I: u n e I; i o n t o s t ;? w o u 1 d t> o a p o s s i. b 1 e i. n d i. o a. t o r o I: 7 e x p o fin r e u t o 1'CII ' a?
8 A. If they wore related. If .it was related
9 ho ..... i.f; Idle re was obv i. ous exposure to PCH ' h , And
1 0 a 1 1 I mean if! -- " obv.ion h " means t h a t.there wan
1 I. pen's l;lie re. And --
J ?. Q . Wei 1 -
1 3 A . ..... 1 f there wore abnormal :i 11 es 1 n .1 1 ver
l 4 fun o t i o n t o s h i. s -- Iw o u 1. d h a v e d i f: f: i. e u .1 h y s a. y i. n g
J 9 t. h e y w e r e n ' 1., b n t t h e y c o u 1 d w e 1 .1 b e t. b a t t h e w a n
I. 6 was dr ink i. n ij or lia. d a I I. kinds of Ida i ngs , 7 Q - W e 1 1 , w o u 1 d . h e r e h a v e t o be PCH'S i n n b 1. o o d i s w e 1. 1 a s a b n o ' m a l 1 i. v e r i: u notion hes t s 9 b e f o r e 1. fi e y c o u 1 d hi o ti d :i c. a l. i v e of e x p o a u r e i. o
2 0 p o ri ' s ?
7. 1 A . Wei 1 , the. PCH ' a won! d -- 1 ovel wool d tel 1 '? 'P me whobhor lie was exposed to PCH's,
2 3 Q , We 11, !. h a t ' s m y <j u e n t :i on .
3. 4 K f t li e r e a. v e. n o d e h. e c, h. a b 1 e P C H ' s i, n
the blood but. abnormal live r function 1. estop could
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X those a. b norma I. I. iv c f u. notion hosts bo i. n d i o a. I: i. v e o t n* e x p o a u r e t o P 0 ) 1 1 < ? 3 A . Wo . 4 0. Let iii e fill ow you a in e in o da tod Nov o hi b e r f* t h, 3 1. 9 7 4 , b y D v , u . I) . 0 r s 1. a ltd, 0 k 3 b A W D , t o 6 P . K , H o i H i oT w 5 th cop.ic*. f! to Dr.. K e .1 .1 y a n d o t h e r ri , 7 Who wo s 12 r . 0 t: s' J. ,5 n d, ? B A . '.Id o T)'t k n o w . 9 Oh, "Oslo, mi." :i o Q , "Oal and , 11 :t ' m sorry . l l A . 0 3 L AMD. I 2 Q . Yes. Who .is l):r , 0Hi and? L 3 A, Ho was our non t root doctor, who came l n J 'I p a r 1. t :i in a an d w o n i t o r e d t h e b e a .1 t. h of t f) c: w o r k ern at 1 9 K r u m in r i. o h , J 6 Q , i' h .1 f! in o in o i f! !i 3 0 2 3 , P 1 a i n t i f f ' s K x h i b i t I. 7 1. 4 H 9 . T a. k ij a. moms': n i. a. mi. c e v i. o. w t Ir .i t in <j in o , p 1. o a. s s': , j B MR . KRUKDWALD : Wh.i .1 e h e ' s r i! v i c. w i n g I. 9 t h a. 1: , o o u 1 d T S o o 1: h >i 1 a s t o n e ho 1 o o k o d a I; , 2 0 p i e a n n ? Thr: no are d o c u m o n t. H 1. h a 1. T ha v e not. ;s o ft . 2 I. i 1: y d 1 re - - w h o n Y o u ' r o d o n so w i. t h t h o in , i. 1: I o a. n 3 ? t a it ft a I o o); a t t h e in , 2 ' d a p p r e c. i a t o 5 I. . ?. 3 ,3 h.in k them i; i. g III: It so !. o l: (j r y Oil . 2 -1 A . (W .i in a a is c o HI p 1 j <: 'll) W ('. .1 i W I" ,i 1. I. O Tl > 23) Q . (liy M r . r, a o o y ) D c . 0:? 1 a mi was c o 11 u o, r n e d
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1 A . do' s a p r a. c I. i. c i. n g p h y s L c i. a n w h o - - w Ii o c. a m o
2. :i tj a n (1 m o n .i 1 o r e 3 1 h o u e w o r k e r a .
3 Q nr . 0 : 1 a n d was c once mod i. n t h e c a e o i : w o A w o r 1; e j- s , w h o it n a m o s h a v o: b e. e n d e 1 e t e d f r o m 1. h a 1
r> do<*. umo ii 1; . i.' h o a. b n o i: m a 1 1. .Ivor tunc t 1 o n l; o n 1. c o u 1!. d b o
6 .i n d i c a t :i v e o f c: x p o s u r o. t o P C)i ' s o v e ti t hon (j h i. h e r e
7 a s n o b 1 o o d 1. e, v e 1 s o 1; 1? 0 B ' u d e t e c 1; <i d ; .1. s n ' t I; hat
B o r :r e c t?
9 A . Y. c :s .
j 0 Q . you w o u 1 d d i s a cj r e e w i t hi 1) r , 0 s 1 a ti d ' s
I. 1. o n c 1. u S i. O 11 ?
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i. 3 e n s i. t i. v i. 1: y o l; lili.i, L PCR method -- i. t go o s b <i. c k 1'. o
1 A h e o t her one --- is that that was in cor re et . A nd ,
i. 5 h e r c 1: oro, he was placing undue re! i. ,i n tz o o n 1; h a t: I 6 o s t t. hat was n " i. vii 1 .i d . That 1 s a ! 1 .... t h a t 1 s a :i J
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A. You. A ini bauod on t: h o p r o in ise , I didn't: 1. h 5 n k 1 h o y w o r c a d o g u a l. <: . 3 Q. Do you mo all a r, oo m pa n y i. n g Jiiyomi on a 4 w a .1 1< 1. h r o n a h i n a p o. c. t i o ri o f' i. h o. K :r u in in r i c h p 1 a n 1. ) ' C. H 3 t: a c i. 1 i. i; I o :? d u r i n g y o u ri; n u r o a :i in o d i. c a 1 d I. r e o t o i' ? fi A . N o , I di d fi o t. . 7 Q. Do you rtu:a 1.1 any wa I. k -- I: h ro ug h roviews of: a i. h o K r ii in m r 5 c. hi f a c i 3 .i I, y f o r w a ti u f a c t. u r .i n g o f P C } l ' ?: 9 h o i. n c{ do no by qo'/onnnon I'.n [ o T: I; i o i. a 1. a during your :i o 1. n u r o. a j: in f>. d :i c a .1 d i r o. v. i. o r ? 11 A . Y O H , J 3 Q 0 n fi o w in a n y o o. c a t; i o n t; w a r o t. fi o f> e d o no? 1.3 A . T h o y d o n ' 1: c o m in u n i. o a L e a 1. 1. ..... wh a 1: 1: .1 k e:? J 4 p 1 a c. e :i n t. h e. p .1 a n t. :i .s' ri o 1. a o in in u n 5 c, a t. e. d t o u u . 1. .9 Q flow many a. ro you a warn o (: ? if. A . On('. . 1 7 Q. . Lot. in o show yon a 1 ct.t o r d a t. o d ).' o b r u a :r y I H 2 4 i. h , I. 9 7 9, I7 r om t:hi-: 1)o pa r i.m o n 1: o f: H o a 1. hh. :i 9 K d u c a t i o n , a rid W o.) f a re, J' u b .1 :'t c: IJ c: a .1 t. fi 9 o r v i c, c: , 3 0 .\ d d r n u u o d 1: o y o u / a 1 o n g w i. t: h a. n a 1: 1: a c h in e n 1: , Dor.uinen 2 :i 2 0 fl 7 7 t }) r omib 2 C! BH .1 , I1 ] a i nii f f ' fi !: x ii 5 b i t 9 1 3 , a ti d 2 3. .) :i !< i f; i. h a ! . i : U io -7. 3 A , i pu ! 1 ofi i i. off a g a :i n . 2 4 Q - a s !<: i. (: 1; Ii a 1: i. i? I; h o r o |> o r h i:. ha 1: y o u r- o. o o :i y e d o f 1 h a i. w a 3 !; - t. h r o u g h 5 n p e c t .i o n t h a t y o n
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r dim 1. L 7 A ,, Yon, j. hi<! j:: one in which T know I; ho. n w a 1. k -t h rniujh h a d k a k o it p 1. a c o w h e n t li o. y w t; r o t r yin g a to do. c i d c: whether they wanted to do an opidom i o 1 o g .1 c b :? k u (1 y o n on v w o r k f: o r c e .
6 f) What, was the question that canned that 7 k o ... - o i' why wan i. 1; that became a question? a A . Thin .in the; qucifit.i firi of whether PCI! .i n a 9 c a r c i. n o g o n ,
J 0 Q . A ti d w h a t w a n t h o p n r p o a c; o f c o n d u c 1. i n g a 1. I. w a 1 k t h r o u <)'h i. n :? pe e t i, o n with roija rd to 1; h.-) t ? .1 7. A . The pnrpone wan to d enter mi no i f a I. 3 p O P U 1. A. 1: i. o n e :< i. n 1; s f r o m w la I c la i k c o u t d b e 1: a n i b 1. e t o J 4 r. o Tt d u o 1.. a r e. t t o n p e c: t m o r t a 1 i t y n t n d y ,
I. b Q D o y o u k n o w w h a. 1; 1; ho e o n e 1. u n i. o n w a n ? :i 6 A . T h a I. w a n 'n ' 1. w o r1, h w h i 1 o cl o i n cj t. h o. re.
I. 7 I d i. d. n * t. 1: i n i. n h i. t, .
1 a Q W a h a ntndy dope? I. 9 A . Not by - - not by Mr. OSH, 2 0 ti Wan a ntndy ever done? 7. i. A . </ ,y . ?
3 7. Q Hy w h o mi wan it done'? 7, 3 A . .Judy /,,). c. h and t h e n u in m e v s hinlen In; .
3 '1 Q . And at whofl e r o q u e si t. wan .it done?
7. 3
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Q Mo b i. 1. r: o po r h o d l: h a 1: they found a ?. r c 1 a 1. ;i onn h i p b a l wo o n o X j i o r: u r o to PCIl's a. n d ft k i n
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4 A They lb on q hi. .i l w a ft p o ft m i b 1 o , Tb cy
8 c a. 1. 1.1 * d - - h h o y o .i 1 1. o d me and a ft k e d m o w h e h h o r f
6 t. h o u <j h t 1. h a 1. 1. b a 1. w a ft r o a ft o n a b .1 e. .
7 Q ' Y o u 1: o 1. d t h o m " n o " ? n h 1 ft a :i d I d 7 d n ' 1. know 9 Q 0 k a. y . An d a. ft a. r o;? u 11: of that t y o u d o c 1 d oil ] 0 i t. w o u .1 d bo a ppropr7 a t e. 1. o q o ahead arid c o ti d u c 1. a
I. I. ft I: u d v o 1: M o n ft a n 1; o ' ft w o r k 1: o r c n ? .1 ?. A To ft oo t T wo. bad any m o i a n o m a ft 1.3 Q 0 n o o f t h e r e. <i son ft t h a 1: 1: ii n c o liter for 1 '1 d i s e a c c o n 1. r o ] c o n c. .1 u d e d t b a 1. it would TI o 1. b o I. 3 p r o I: i. 1: a b l ho conduct a. ft t u d y of Mo n ft a n 1: o 'ft work :i 3 f o r r*. e w a s boo a lift o of t. be very 1 o w ] e v e ] ft of expo ft u r o 1. 7 r o. u 1, 1:. 7 n g l;i-fim the pro ciidii r o ft f o 1 1. owed by Monsant o ?
1 8 A Y e ft , 1 9 Q A n d ob v i on a .1 y .if y o u conduct a study on a 2 0 P o p u 1. a h i. o n 1; h a. 1: h a s n o m ea. n i. li g f u 1 e x po ;? ureft, you' r o 2 I T) o L q o .i n q 1. o f ;i n d a ti y m fi a n i n g f n i r o ft u 1 t. ft f r O H! 2 3, o x p o ft u r o, ?
2 3 A Wo a d r; o m o o. x p o a u r o , but it w fa y n 1 1. c$ ..... 2 1 li i. q b enough ho- :ny I: ha. h. i f w e c a in o o u 1: ni'Mjii 1: iwc; 1: b ,i t
won .1 d hi e a ti i. h o r c: ' ft n o p r o b .1 o in . A 1. 7 e a ft t. that wan
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t o u r i. in |> r o ;>:? L o n ,
ft - A ri d 1. h o 1 w a h t. h e r e a o n t. h a d.n o :j t \i d y w a s
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1 4 5 n c r e a s <?., but there was a n excess .
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J H .A . Y e ,'i , 11 u t e v e rv e p :i d e m io.log.ic sf u cl y d.
i. 9 d o n e w i. 1. 1. ha v e s o m e o x c, e s e :5 , H e u a u u e w h (Oil VO i have
2 0 d (die 1 t o - i f you're ft o i n g t o h a v e c. a. n c: e r a d. c 1 .1 , 3 I they can' 1; a 1 1 b o io i. g h t o n 1. h o l i. n e o (: w h at ' s
3 3 co x ;> e c 1 co d .
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2 b t. h e. g r o n p a n cl 't h e 1 i J; e ?
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1 0 w h o t h e r t h a I: w a, u r o I. a I; o d w a a n o I: h o r q ij o:? t i. o n .
1 ! Q, A quest ion which you can't answer for us to
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1 b> or A n 1. h a 1. w h 0 1 0 K r u m in r A c h p 1 a n t .
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3 3 A t ' n re'l t.vts'd l.o that; b u t we nil .1 1 ha. d some execs'-! .
2 4 And wo' re i. n t h o p c o o o a s o I: writing up a cane
3 b control study to loot at thin.
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6 d. i. d .
7 Q. You iircn 1 t.ab] e to rule that outeither.
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I. 0 p o s s i. b i. 1. i. 1; y t; h a h Pd P.'s wan the cause of: i. ho 1: . I I:
1 1 won .1 d h a v e i. o b o r: o m e t h i n g t ii a t ' i a i t h o rn e., a n d 1. 7. P C n''s w o r; o, n ' L a i. r b o r n e .
3 3 a. I <j e o , `J'he rnufion y o u a a y i. t w o vi 1 d h a v a t o I. 4 b o a i r b o r n e in been, line you think the way lung ca. n c e r
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3 9 is a. 1 <; I; i; o i: t h a. I: you, in fact, received from
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i. t A . To have 1; h o in e x p 1 a. i n I: o m e why he didn't
1 3 f .i ti d o: a n c: e :r ;; a. ri d K .im trough had found t ti e m .
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A . J can ' 1. remember all of the things that 7 w o. v la o r o w a :? a. p a r I; o f: I*, h aI: d 1 a c u a a i. o n , H u I; i t 8 won] tl be pe r t. :i n on t f or thatto be because one of the 9 firs 1: thin<ta i ? i t rol.ated to the Kimbrough study, J 0 Q . He; a .1 f; a referoTiccsi n h i a letter a I. I. w i. 1. 1. i n <j n e a to bo of help i.n any way that Mo ns an to J 3 wishes . Do you see that in t. h e second paragraph? 13 i\ . Y e 3 , s i r . 1 -1 Q. And youdid further c: all on THT to help try I. 3 and clear up Lhn t problem, d id you. not? 1 6 A , You. :i 7 Q . F 0 i" e >: a in j) 1 e , y 0 u c a 1 .1 e Cl upon them to have i. n D r 3 , G 0 r <1 0 n <1 n d. R i. c h l. e r g 0 t 0 A t 1. a n t a a n d r e v i. e w l. h 0 j 9 K i in b r 0 u cj h 3 1 i d 0 n t d j d y 0 u n 0 t. 7 3 !) A , I d 0 n ' 1:. 1: h i n k r d i. d . ?. \ Q . Did M 0 Ti 3 a n 10 2 2 A , l f. m i q h. t h a. v e . 2 3 Q . M 0 n r. a n 1. 0 w a u pay :i rid f 0 r the wort done by 2 4 [ H f; wore they not? 3!) A , Yen.
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l Q . K rio 1. m l i. ny l.lie re v 1 e w o i: :? I. i d e:? a n d I', h o ') 1 i k c: V
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f. t h o m l o d o ?
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2 F) Q . .A n d he: p o i n t <; o u I.. , o/i the other hand, tha t.
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I ho odi'.h one of: the aijenoi.es we vi.si.ted, o n I. y I; <5 2. a cj a i n 1. a .1. )< a b ou t t hi a t cj a t1 .i ti g .i n v o .1 v e d 4 n t. h a 1. 3 di.seussi.on ol! what is a cancer a cancerous 1. e s i. o n 4 a n d h o w d o y o u d e f 5 n e t b e in , 5 .0.. T h e v i. s i. 1; that was m a d e I; o h h e Go v e rn m e n t. 6 5 f? t. hi e one that is r e f e r r e d to .in the memo t hat 7 Mr. Pa ppa<jeo nje wro t o 1: (3 D r . Cal. an dr a. you, and 8 M r . W e l) e r o n Nov e m b e r 1 0 t hi - I'm s o r r y -- N o v e m hi e r 9 1 0 t h , .1. 9 7 5 , D o c: u m e n t 1. 4 0 7 , 1. 4 B l], p 1. a i. n 1: 1 f: 1:'s K >c h i b i t .1 0 j hi :i 6 , i a i t a o t ? 1 .1 A . W a a n ' t w r ,i Item by - - oh, .i t w a s f r o m 1. 2 0 a p p a cj e o r cj e . Y e s . l 3 a- 'J' h a t. i s t hi e v i s i t w h e r e you t. o ok I. 4 D r . C a I a n d r a I: to p r (3(i n 1; t h e p o s 1 t i. (3 n s o n t fl c 1 5 t> a n c. a r c i 'n oq cm icity of PCH' Cj "> l 6 A . A s w e 1. 1. a, s \: o p r e s e n t t h c m w L 1; h t in e P (3 o r 1 7 p a p e a- .
i a Q yes. 1 < c: t. in e a. a )< y o u a .1 i 111 e b i t a hi o u t
19 t h a t v 1 s i. t. Di. d you ad. vis e 1: h e Govern m e lit of: f. h 2 0 !t t. o w t u d y a o n c .1 u d i n q t hi a t. P CP's c a vi s e d c a n c. e r ? 2 1 A . W e 1. 1. , t h c y a 1. r <3 a d y h a d - - t In a. t ' s p u b L i. s hod 2 2. C). `.P hi a. t ' a n o t m y q u e ;; 't i on . 2 3 A . No , we d i d n (3 I; . 2 4 0. - y o u d i d 7i ol. ca!l 1 that a t. u d y to a in y o n e ' s 2 5 a I: i; e n t .1. o n :i. n t h a t v I s i I:, d I d y o u ?
IMELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
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A , No, !3 i. V .
2. M R . F K 11 V,} 3 W A L I ) : I. os t in e o b g e 01. t o
3 c ha rc I:or.1 ftdfcion oi! 1:ho 1' l.ow a fcudy as showing causing
:1 0 a n c. o r . I ' m n o t s a r a t fta t's w ft a t t h e J l.ow s 1 it d y
5 f? a i. d , a. n d I * m 11 o t n e c e a s a r i I. y g o i. n g I; o a 0 o e p I: t h a I:
6 as being the cone] ttsi ent of that, study on your
7 r op r ea e to I; a.t i o n b o0 a u 3 e I t, h i n k t h e r o '3 gr ou nds f: o r
a d 3 s a g r e e tit e rt t .
9
Q,
(H y Mr. 1a o e y )
W e .13, 1 e t m e a a k in y
i. o g u e 3 1; i o n d L (: f: e r e n t3. y s i.rt o el: It e Motts a tt I; o Lawyer
3 3 d3 sa grees .
1 3 O rt t ft .i a v 3 3 3 t, w ft a t. a g e. rt e i es did y o u
1.3 g o t? e e ?
J 4 It . W e n t. t o N I' 0 3 13 a rt d w e rt t t o C K Q .
Q < T It a I: ' 3 t It e C o u tt c i. 1. (;o rK n v 1 r o n m e 11 t a l
3 6 Q vt a .1 3 t y 7
1. 7 A , Y e 3 .
3 0 A n d -- a n d NCI.
1.9 Q N a t i. 0 to a 3. C a n <: e r T. it:? 1; i. t u 1: a ?
30
A ,, A rt d a p p a :r ft rt t .1 y NI K H S wa s there
c.ame
?. 1. t. It ere. a s w 0 1 1. . A tt d t h e tt w e v :L s i. ;ed the F F A and the
2 3 FDA .
2.3 Q. > And wasn't there a v 3 ft 3 1. 10 a C 0 rt g r ft a s 3 0 n a .1 2.4 g r 0 u p , a ;> w e l 3. ?
2. H A . I d 0 n ' 1. t ft 3 n )< u 0 .
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L Q. Okay. Did you advi. :5 any o 1: those people 2 i. h a 1. 11 o w ' u n t xi c'i y 5 n m i c c: f o xi n ci , g xi o t e , 3 " h y p e r p 1.a u t i e rx o d u l o a a. n d w e 11. - d i. f! f! o r e n l; i a I: e d . 4 h c1. p a 1. o c c-: .'I .1 xi .1 a r <: a r c i n o in a n , " c: .1 o a o q u o l. e , a t a d o n e 3 o v ft 1. o l! 5 0 0 par 11? p o r m i. 11, .1. i. o n o 1: Ka na o 1. o r b 0 0 ? 6 A . No, nir 7 Q At; l.bc: t. i m e t. ti a t y o xx m a d e t. ti a t v .i n i t, B Drs. Gordon and Dr, Uiolxter had gone and rev lowed 9 t h c K i m b r o u g b n .1 i c'i e n , b a c'l t b e y n o t ? I. 0 A , I d o xx ' 1; lc n o w , J 1 0. - Y o xx d o n rx t know ? I. 3 A . j: don ' i; k now w tx e n t h ex y d i. d w i h lx r ft u p ft o t 1; o ] 3 t h .1 a . :i a Q . 1 s c; e . W o 'I .1 , .1 e t. m e an k y o xi t h 5 a ,t b ex ti : 1 3 A t t h at nt ft e t i. n g , d i. d y o u a. d v i. n e a rx y h o ci y , a. txy of: ] 6 those groups, that Dr, Gordon or Dr, R.ichter bad 1.7 r e v i e w ft d. I:. h e K i. m b r o ugh n I i. d. e s -,x rx d f: o u. tx d o r a g r e e d 3 9 w ,i t h t be f ,i n d j n g n a f c a r c e r ? 19 A . No , s i. r . 2 0 Q. 'J'be oniy reports t bat you made: to any of 7, I. those groups wore that; the IRT study did not show 2 2 c a n o e r a tx d l. h a 1. D :r . Poo r c o n o.1 xi d e d t h a tt it e. 3 3 K I m b r e; u (j h u I; u d y d i, d n o I; n h o w c a n o e r ? 7A h . T b a 1. ' nright.. A n d K .i in b r o xi g b w a n t. h e r e w h e n 2 5 w e, d i. d. t h a. h . W o g a. v e I; o i t f< i. m b v o u g lx , a w e l I. .
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1. Q , )'. u n (1 e r s I: a n d . Bii I; 1: h e o n 1 y ..... o n I. y 2 inf onnati an you gove to arty of t ti e s a group!: was 3 that -- - real. I. y t. hat Dr. Poor had rev I owed the THT <1 n I. u d ,i e s a n cl a a i d " n o e a n c e r " a n d 1) r . P o o r h a d 5 r o viewed t h e K i. m b r o u g h s t u d i e s .... 6 A . Vea 7 Q a n d s a i. d " n o c a n c e r " ? B N o t h i -n g e .1 s e ? 9 A , h a t ' s? r i g h t. 3 0 Q. `J'hc: reason forthat, vi a 1 i was bee a use there L 1 w a s v e r y a 1 g n i. f i e a n I; c o n c e r n i.n t h e a e v a r i o u sj j 3 g o ve r r m e ri t a .1 a g e n c .i e s a b o u 1. P C B' si c. a u a i a g c a no e r ; 1.3 i. s it' t t h a. t e o r r o e t ? .1 4 A . 3' d o ti ' t k ti o w . I. 3 Q . i ;-] e e . 1) o y o u v e c a l I. t h a t i. n .1. 9 7 B a. n u m b e r 1 6 o f q o v e r n in n t a .1 a g e ti c. i e a n d p e o p 1 e w i t h :i n t h o a e I. 7 a g e it c i. e s w e r e in a k i n g a. s e r i o u s e f: I: o r t t o q e I: 1 B :i e cj i .1 a t j o n p a s s e d t o b a n t h e m a mifa c: t u :r e a a d s a .1 e 19 o I: P 0 R ' :3 ? 2 0 MH , KNIT KB WALD: Are. you representing 2 I. t It a t w a s a f a. r. I; ? j; -- 2 2 MB . LACKY : No. 1 1 m asking the 2 3 q u e s I; I o it , ?A Ml) . KKUKB WALD : Yeah. Okay. You're 2f5 asking if that was true rather than whether ho
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1 roc a 1 1. a 1 1, ? 2 MK . LAOKY: If ' m ask.inq .if ho reca II II >
.1 h h a. t s i. 1; na h i. on b e i. n q t h c c. a a e o r n <3 1; ,
4 A . No, II d on ' 1 .
5 . (By Mr. ha coy) Lot mo a how you a memo
6 d a 1. e d 8 e. p t o m b o r 3 7 1. h , J 9 7 5 , w 3- a 1.1. e n b y y o u t o t h e
7 C <3 r p <3 r a I; o A d. in 1 n 1 s 1; r a t i. v o <1 o in in i, t toe, D o c umen 1; 1 9 7 2 2,,
8 P .'! a i ri t ,i f f: 's R x h :i b H t 7 3 0.
9 A . Y e :5 , a i. r ,
] 0 Q. D o y o n r o o a .1 II w :r ,i t ,i n q t h a t in e in o ?
1. 1. A . Yon, a i. r . 1 u i. q n o d i t .
:i ?. Q * That 1 a your fiignatiini, i s .it not?
13 A . Y e 3 ,
1 4 Q You w o t o in a 1< i n q m o n t h 1 y r e p o r't a t o t h 1 8 0 o r (3 o c a 1; o Adm i. n i, a t r a b i. v e C<3 m in 1 t h oe , wo r o y (3 u n (3 b?
I fi A . Yea .
1 7 0. . 1) i d y o u q o p e r k o n a .1 II y t o p r e s e n t t h o s e
1 8 r o p o r 1; u ?
:l 9 A . N C3 , fi i 3" .
7 0 Q . T h e y w o r e, q u a t. n u b in ;i t t e d i n w r 1 11 n q ? 7 1. A, . Y (3 u .
2?. Q - One of the th.inqn tha t, wa u of concern t o
2 3 1, It C. (3 r p o v a 1; o A d m L n 1:s 1'. r a. t i. v o C o in m i. t1 e <->, i. n 1. 9 7 8 w a s
2 4 w h a t p o t e n 1 .i a 3 <S o v <?. r n in e n t a c t :i on w a s t a 1? :i ti q p .1 a c e
2 8 w i. 1; h r
1, o PCB ' !i, wax it nob?
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A , Yos .
2 (). .1 n f a c. t , t h ,'i s w It o .1 e Hi o n t. h 3. y 5" e p o r 1. d c-; a 3 t
.1 w i I; h n o t h i n g b a h I; h o I? C B 1 3 u o , c o r r e o I; ?
4 The; second .parn graph deals w.it 3i
5 05 p i d e m i o I. o g 1 o 3 I: u cl y , a. n d i h w a s b r o a d o v t h a n j u 3 I;
6 POP ' s .
7 () . 1t was i n a p i r e d b y q u e. a t. 3. o n : a b 0 u t.w h e 1. h 0; r
8 o r not PCD ' s weni o <3. us i. n g (5 a. n o e r a in o n g w o r l< ers,
9 w a s n ' t. ,i t. ?
3 0 A . T h e -- t Pi c-; 3 n t. e r e x* 3'. o f 1. he. Gov e r n m e n t. w a s
l t. not rotated I; o cancer, It was the presone o of OCR's
3 2 .i r1 t h e e n v i r o n m ca n t .
3 3 Q . t s c; e . T 3; e t w o p 3 a n t a t h a l. a r er c; f e r r a d t. o
i 4 L n I; h a t s ca con d p a r a. g r a p h w e r e t h 03 K r u m m r i oh pi a n t
3 5 a n <3 t. h 0; A i) n .1 s t o n , A 3 a b a in a , p 3 a n t, w e. r e 13> e y n o l. ?
I. 8 A . We we r on' t ma k i, ng P c R ' a i. n An n 1 s I; o n .
37
Q . 0 3) ,
3 vi n d e r s t. a n d . T h <?. t. w o p 3 a n t s ref e r r e d
18 to tn tho me mo are the Kruminr i. oh plant and the
3 9 1\ n n i s t. on, A 3 a b a hi a , p 3 a n t., a r e t. 3i e y n o t ?
2 0 A. No.
2 3 Q . W h a t p 3 a n 3. s w o r e t3i e y ?
2 2 A, Well, It says, "of: o h e m i. o a 1 s . " And I'm not
2 3 tin re what. t. wo pi ant n 3 was talking about, at that
2 4 t i. in e .
2 b 0 . Vo u ;} u i I. d o n 1 t r e 0 a 1 3 ?
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1 A . No .
2 Q * now 3 pcn ' s?
4 A . Two .
b Q - II! n 1: h <i fJ n i. 1: e d B I; a. I; e s ?
6 A . Yes .
7 1). Th e 0 a n d t h e Ann L s
t. h e K x- u m in r A c, h p 1 nut. in 3 11 j. n o A
9 A . yes .
i. 0 b e 1 n g a p c: n b
] :i a pp e a r a n c e .
i ?. Q 1 B O
13 you a a V t h a t, 1 4 r e .1 a t. e d t. o J1C H ' r c o n t. i n ii e d t o r' o g \i :ir e in e>. d A o a .1
I. 5 department attention ho support: business group
J 6 e f f o X-1 s . "
3 7 W h a i. d A d y o u in o a n w h e n you s a A d
18 " b u s i. n o s s g r o u p e f: I: o r t s " ?
1 9 A . P 0 R ' w e r e a n A in p o .r1. a n t A r s ii e. 1. c> Monnan t o ,
2 0 i. n cj e n o r a I. .
2 3 Q What was t h o " b ii i A n e cj x- o u p e.ffor t " ? 7. 2 A . I - - j: c. an't a n s w e r t h a I: < I! h ' a g e n e r l c
2 3 b ii a .i n e s a CJ T O 1.1 | ) . ] l c. a u a o J - - :r Ti o v e x- )< n o w w h o w a a
2 4 i. n v o 1 v e <1 a h t h .i. t 1: i. m e o r ii o w i: s Ii o u 1. d tal.k a b o u t
2 b w h a t 1 h e 11 b vi a A n o a f: cj x- O 11 J) ' s e f f o :r t. " in ea n,
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]. 0.. D i. d n't y cj u. kno w 1: ha t 1:h o " b u s f. n e s s g r o u p 2 o f f o r t " w a s t o k e e p o n in a k i n g a n d s o 1 .1 i n g P C }i ' s ? .3 A , No, 53 i r . W o w e v e -- t h e r o w a, i3 a 1 v e a d y 4 p ,3 a n s t o g e t a u t o f PCH's in 3 9 7 8 . b Q. F. s i t y o u r to s I: i. mon y that t lie date this 6 in e m o was writ tern ih e company a .1 r e a d y h a d p 3 a ti s t o 7 g e t o u t o t t h e P C B bu s Incs s ? 8 A . I t b 1 n k i t was. 9 Q Where did y o u h e a r a n d 1: r o m who m d l d yo u 3 0 1) e a r t h a t by He p t e m 3) e r 3 7 t h , 3 9 7 b , t h o e o m p a n y b a d I. t a 1. ready had plana or in lentlons ho got out of: the .1 2 PC 33 Mucin ess? 13 A . I con] d ti ' t p o s s i b 3 y a n aw e r t h a t cj u e st.3 o n . I. 4 0. - Are you j u s t g u e a s i n cj k It a t y o u h a d h o a v d 1 f) t b a t before that cl a t e , o r d o y o vi k n o w ? L6 A . I t ' :3 in y i m n r e s i. o n . :i 7 Q W b a i. g a v e y o u t h a t 3 m p r e s s i o n ? 10 A . (4 (1 fi 11 l3 O o f t h o p r e n e n o o o f P C11 ' s 1. it t: h e 3 9 e n v i ro nni ea t and t. li e p r o b 1 e in t b a t. w e c o n .3 d n ' t 2 0 o a n t r o 1. . 2 1 0. . W h a i. p r o b .1 e in y o vi c o u .1 d n ' t. e o n t r o 3 ? 3 3 A . T h o li a e f; that Pen's wore out in the 2 3 e n v :i r eminent. and f o u n ci .i n f o o d s , .1 n g e n e r a 1 . I! e t w e e n 2 4 n o w a u d t h o e n d 'Of the year we' Li bo dealing w i. i: h 2 9 FDA, FPA, and NIOBH, probably, in various 3) ear lugs
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3
1. v a 1. a. 1; a d to PCJR'S 1 ix l: xx od , And 1: lx a y d
2 .3 n f o o d. a 3 P. S3 b oxt .1 d n 1;. b e .3 n f o o d , ;; b o u .1 d
4 A . That's I. g lx 1; . T Ix a 1:'s r L g h t ,
b Q 3 b o xx 1 d ri t. b e a r> y w h ex r e 3 l. c a n
fi c o n t a c t o r g c? 1: 1 n t o lx u m a n s , s h o u 1 <1 3. h ?
7 A , It. wo u .1 d b a b e 11.e.r .1 f 3t. waren ' t th ex-e .
0 Q H a. d y u a I. v a d. y 1: o r m e d t h o i m p r e s s i. o n b y
9 3 c p t. ct m bci r 1 7 t. b , 1 9 7 5 , t.h a t M o a st a n 1. o n o e d e d 1 o g e t.
I. 0 out o I: the OCR bus i.ne;-: '.P?
:i j A . I ' m ri o t b u r ci I w c-tr> t t b a t f a r .'J1ha1. r e ally
1. 2 wa :j n ' I: my dec l u i. o ii k i. nd o II 1; h 1 ng , and l had no
J 3 c o T) l. a c 1. w j 1. b b \) f? 3 n s p e o p .1 e m a k 3 n g a xj c b d e c 3 a 3 o n a ,
I. 4 Q , W lx o b e d e o L a i. o n w a a 1 I: ?
1 A , I d o a ' t. k ri o w .
16 Q . W o 11 , d i. d n ' fc I:h a m a d L c a 1 d p a r I; m a n I: lx a v a
1 7 t.be;
the right, or t.ho antbori t.yto advise the
I. B c o in p a jx v t lx a I; 11; s lx o u I. d s I: o p in a. I< i ix <j c a r I; a 1 tx o lx a m i. c a L s
1 9 b a c xx xi a c o f p r cx b .1 e. m b v/ 3 t b b e a 11 h cx r t. b e cx n v 3. r o n m e n t ?
2 0 A . T. 1; won 1. d car t a i. tx .1. y h a v <x a. r 3. g h 1, t o in a k e a
2 1 r c-i e o in in c-x a d a 1.3 o ti .
7.9. 0. 1) 3 d y o vi e v c-x r in a. k o t, ti a 1. :r e ci o iri m e> r> d a t. 3 o n o n 2 3 b a Ix a. 1. i: o t t lx a in o d i ca 1 d cx pa. r 1; in e n t o t: M o n ,;x n t o ?
?.A A . No, a 3 r.
?, b Q T h e d e c 3 :i .3 o n t b a t w a d in a d e by Mon a a ti t o t o
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<j c; 1: o u t; o f 1; h e P C B b u s Lnfiss w a:? in a d e by s o in e b o d y
3 outside the modi cal department, without any
3 v e c a in m end a t i. o n f: r o m t h e m e d i. c a 1. dep a r t m e n t ?
4 A . Yes.
5 Q. At the. time y o u wrote thin me. mo, Monsanto
(i h a d n q v e r c o n d u c t e d a 1 n q I. e e p .1 d e in .1 o I o g i <: a ). s t u d y
7 of wor ker s j t any of 5 t a p.1 an ta , had 5 t ?
n A , I ' m s u v a I; h a I;' a r i. q h k .
9 () . And w .i t h o u t. c o n cl u c t 1 n g a n e p 1 d e m .1 o 1 o q 1 c. a .1
1. 0
a hudy ,one :i. a no t i. n
a pon 11 i. on boay w h e l; her I: h o
chemical a that workers have been exposed to .in t h e
L 2 w o r k p i a c e h a v o o r h a v e n o t c a u s e d c h r o n i. c h e a 1. b h
1 3 e f f e c t. s 5 n t h e m , a r e. t h e y ?
i 4 A , We c a n t e 1 I.o n our worke r s e x p o r e d , f: r o m
] b o u r e x a m 1 n a 11 on, w h o t h e r t h e r e was e v 1 d e n c e t h a t.
1 (3 there w a s a n y a b n o r m a. 1. i. b y i n l: h e in ,
1 7 Q. That's not my question. If there is a
i n p r o b 1 e m t h a h a r i. s e s w i t h t h e w o t; k m e n -- 1 e 1' ' a a a y
] 9 h e ' a q o t 1 :i v e :r c a n c e r - - w 1 t h o u t h a v 1 n q c o n d u c. t. e d a n
2 0 e p i. d e in i o 1. o q i c a L ;? I: u d y , you're n o t i. n a p o ;> i. t 1. o n I: o
21 s a y w li e t h e r e x p o a u r e t o e h e m r c. a 1 s 1 n t he work p 1 a c e
2 2 oausixi that; 1 Ivor cancer or nob, are you?
23
A. If we had liver cancer, .1 would
would
2 4 h a v e bo w r e s 11. e w i. 1; h w h a t ).' b h o u q h t was I; h e c a u s o o b
29 h :i s live r c a n c e ;r .
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S. I i
1 Q A n d (t n e o n h it o 1'. it i. n g s you would need ho 2 t1 ct w i 'h b i. b a t w o u 1 d b e a n e p 1 d e m 1 o 1 o g 1 c a 1 n t u d v ? 3 A . R e o it e w a y (t i: d o i n g i. I; , yes. -1 Q . A n d i l. wo n .1 d b e v cry d iff i. e u 1 t. t. o r o p r e a o n t 5 ho anyono else hit a t y o u had had no ho a. Ihh p r o b 1.e m t? 6 c. a u a o d b y a n y p a r 1 :i c u .1 a r o h e in :i c. a .1 y o u :r p e o p .1 e w e r e 7 e x p o s o d t o w 1 h h o u I; it a via g (ion e e p 1 d o in i. o I. o g i. o a 1 8 t u d 5 ( ; , w o u .1 d n ' h i l. ? 9 A, Wo can une our modi, oa.l da ha under our :i o i u r v e ;i 1 1 anc e? c x a m i n a t :i o n s ; b u t j t w o n ' t t a k a t h e. l l .p L a o e (t I: a n e p i d e m i. o I, o g i. o s h u d y, h h a h ' i; r i. g h h . .1 2 Q . T h e f i r a t t :i in o* y o u c. o n d u o t. ct d a n 1.3 epidemiological, shady w i h It regard ho BCR's was ah'her :i /i you bad learned of the Mob.i.l study suggesting a 15 r e I. a h i o n s h i. p it o 1; w e e it o x p o s u r e h o P C R ' s a n d m e I a n o m a ; 1 6 I s n ' t t h a t c. o r r e e t. ? I. 7 A . Yes, s i r . 1 B Q . And wha t y ou f o u nd 1 n t. li a t v i.u dy wa s a L 9 r e I. rt h i o n it i p s u g g o a t e d b o h w e e nP C R ' s a. n d I. u it g 2 0 c a nc or , wa ti n ' 1. 1 i. ? 2 :i A . No, .it. d o e a n ' t - - a 11 1 t a a y a , t h e r 2 2 p (t s s j. b 1. e as s o (t i. a f. i. >.3 it , D (3 <t s n ' h s a y tit e r e i s . 2 3 0 1 a e o . 0 n e o f 1. h o p :r o b 1 e in a w ,t t h 2 4 o. p j. d e m i. o 1. <3 y i. s 1; It a h i. 1: ' :3 a i. m <3 a h i. m p (3 s s i. b l (3 2. b c. ,1 e a r -c\i 1a o on c 1 u r, i on s , 1 an ' t .t t ?
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1. A . No l: If you havo - - i. f: you roped t a study i. n 2 a ti u mbor of dAfferent ] o c a t. i o n j: arid they all come up
3 w 11, h t h e s a m e (: i. n d. i. n q, I; h o n y nu'v e q o t a
(1 c a \t f! o - a Ti d c f f e c: t r e .1 a t A o ri s ft A p . B u t. A f A t. ' s no t
B repeated. In another location or i. I: the evidence
6 A n '1c A o a r - o vi t, t h e it y o u h a v e a p r o b 1 e m .
7 9. < W o u I. d y ou r e a d t h e 1 a s t sen I; e n c e oH you r
B in e in o A n t o t fi e r o e o :r d , p 1 e a s e ?
9 A , " W e w i. 1 1 h a. v e t o d o lit u c it m o r e e p i. d e in L oI. o q y
1 0 A rt t. ft e f u t u r e , a .'! t fi o u q hc A e a :r - c. u t c o it c .1 u s A o n ts ar e
l I. a. I. in o s t i m p o s s i. bin, "
1 2 M R . P R U K B W A L D ; C a n T s e o 1.1) a t o Tt e ,
I. 3 too, 0 a v e ?
3 <1 MR. I, A CRY: Bure.
1. 3 Why don't, we take about a 1; i. v e - m i. n u t e
J 6 fir oak. Let. mo sort through this,
1. 7 T (( K V 1 D RO 0 R A P H It R : Ha 1 r e n o w q o i n<J o f f
] B t h o re c o r d , T fi e t A m e A a 3:32 p . m .
19 (Bh o c t R e e e s s )
2 0 J' Bit V :r D K 0 G K A P B R R : W a a r e Ti o w bar. k o n
2[
I: h e r e c o r <1
T h e t i. m e i. s 2:39 p . m .
2 2 9 (! y Mr . L a coy) Dr . R o u s fi , A e t 3 3 a. d. o c u m e n f, d a. 1; e (j. A ti q u s I; 2 2 n d. , 1 9 7 b , f: v o m
2A J o fi a a s e tiA. ci you, R o c u m o n t 6 B 3 b 3 t hro u g h 6 0 3 f> 6
2 5 P i. f s I; Letme ask you who Dr. Johansen was.
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I. A. . D r . J o h a. n s e n i. s a t o x i. c o I o g t. s h whoh a s
2 t a k e, n o v e r a s h e a d o f l. h o1. o x 3 c. o .1 o g y sect 3 o n a t
3 M o n s a n t o a n d 0 e o r g a b .1 v i. n s c u s h a s b a o o m a a
4 c. o n a u .3.1. a a t 3 n 1 o x :i c. o .3 o g y . 80, t h e d 3 r e e t
5 r eponn ib .1. I. .1 I; y 1: o r a I. L t o x i. r, o 3. (5 g y Ls J o h a n sen.
6 Q . T h a t. in e in o 3 a a b o u t a r e v 3 e w t h a t
7 D r . J o h a n s a n d 1. <3. on a v o r y o u r sory basis, t h e
8 p os s i b 3 3 .3 t y o f d o 3 n g a n a p 3 d o m 3 o 3 o g 3. e a .3 s 1.11 d y of
9 p a o p 1. a who w o c k a d i. n Dap a r t m e n I; 246 a 1; I; h o f< r u m m r i c h
1 0 p .1 a n i., 3 n 3 t n o t ?
I. f. A. X 0 :3, s i i' .
1 2 Q . Do, pa r t. in curt 246 wan the PCB d o p a :r t111 o. n 1 a 3.
.13 t h a. I; p 3. a 11 I; ?
3 4 A . Ye si , v, 3 r .
3 3 Q . And D r . J o 3i a n tt e. n ' s w o r k w a. a t h e w o j k which
I 6 suggested hho't thorn was an excess o f: .li.vot; -- J.'' m
3 7 sorry .... an excess of .lung cancers .....
18 A , X e s , s i t; ,
39
Q.-- among
people who worked 3n the A roc lor
2 0 d 0 pa r I:mon I; a. I; the Kru m m rich p 1. ,1 n t ?
2 3 A. Yes, s 3 r.
2 2 Q . A. n d i. t i s 1, h a 1; p r o L 1 m 1 n a v y wor k I: h a I;
23 D r . J o h a r1 s o n d 3 d 3n 3 9 7 9 w h 3 c h y o 11 d 3 d n o 1 h a v e
24
followed up until, after theMobil study,,
correct?
2 9 A . T h 3 it 3 t; 3. nr e s p o n s e. t o t. h e M o b 3 3 s t u d y .
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5 A . J o h a n a e. a w a a a t o x 5 e o 1. o g i i t. . A n d T
6 e x p 1. a i. n o d t; o h .1 in b h a b h i. h o :< i. o. o 1. o g y a 1: u d :i. e s are
7 e p ,i cl e m ,i o 1 a cj y fi t. u d i e c; o n r a t i a n d h e o u g h t t o b e a b 1 e
a t o h e 1. p in o b o d o a p r o L i, m L n a r y 1 o o k a h b li i. . A n d
9 t h ?1 t ' 1 vi hat th 1 ! WD f; , a pr oil ni n n ary 1 o o k .
1 0 Q - 0 k a. y . 11 A . 1t d .i d 'not i n e 1 u d e a n y 4. h :i n g r o .1 a t c: d to
1 2 cot*rec h i. o n b o r -> <J , v/ li i. o. h i. s a p a r 1; of: any 1.3 e p .i d e m .1 o .1 o q .i. c a t u d y . 11 hi a d n c> 1 ,i .f c - t a h 1 o:
1.4 e va 1. no. b i. on , T t w a. a in y 1. o o k 1: o s e o i. 1: w e li a d
1 5 in e .1 a n o m a a .
1 6 0.. A ti d , o f o. o u r si e., t h e i t u c'i y w a n c o m b o rt i n cj .i Ti
I. 7 b li e b a. r, t y o u bound no mo 1. a n o m a. -.3 ?
j a A . V e. ii .
1 9 Q 11 n 1. d i a c o m f o r t i ncf 3 n the ex o.en s of .1 ung 2 0 o a n c. e r n '?
2. 1. A . y e a , S .1 T .
2. 2, Q - A n d i. b. w a :i 1) r s . - - was i. t Dr. X a c h ? 2 3 A . No . 3 h e - - i; ti e w a n tralnod an an
2,4 o p i. d e ill i. 0 I.og i. u b . S li o h a. d a. M a s b o r ' s d o g t; e o b r o m - - t
2.3 t. h ,i n k .i t. w a n Ml oh :! q a n .
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6 Q 01< a y , Now, V)t , Mus ch , wh 0 a c t, n a i .1 y d A d t >1 e.
7 e p i. d e m i. 0 ]1. 0 g i c a 1. study?
0 A . Y e i . Hec.anb e thoir ' s dA d - - t h e: y ft a d
9 L l I: h a1> 1. e a n a. 1. y u i. *5 a o pp o a e d h o w h a l: t:. h J.:? i. a .
3 0 We did not stop with this. We got
l I. Dr-, Met) 00 bee ft/om NppI, ey to 1 0 0 k .1 t w h a t d a l; a w 0
:i. 3 h a d , a n d h e d A d a m 0 d i f A e d ,1 A f e - tab] e a n a A y s A a and
1. 3 Looked at the lung r, a. n e e r :s a n d s a i. d tha 1; the L un<7
J 4 can 0 e r a w e :r c no t r e ] a t. e d t 0 w 0 r 1< A n P C B ' b b & c a u s e
I. 5 m 0 r e h h a n h a 1 P 0 L! t h 0 m ti a d v e r y - v 0 r y 3 h 0 1: t -1: e r m
J 6 t i m e i n 1. h A s ex pos U TV .
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3 0 again with the Andy 7. a c h, which is a .1 ] a part of the
2 1. s a m e a p p r o a oh .
3 3 Cl , I n e e , Bo, t h e o it 1 y e p i d e in i o 1 o cj ic a .1
2 3 h t u d l e *5 M o n 3 a n t o n v o r d i. d w o r e t: o u I. e d u p ,s h o r t, a n d.
?A t; u hi m a r y ?
2 9 A, Yon.
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1. Q , 0i, d y o u ft v ft v a t1; e m p I; t o s I; r a 1 <J h t ft n o u t 2 t. h o h ci foul up?.: to qcrl, to the real rcom 1 t;.i ? 3 A. Well., that's what the 7 a oh study was. The 4 /, a <: h study was a correcti on of tbj a one. 5 Q, nut dicin' t you t, e J. 1 me 5.1: was also fouled 6 up? 7 A . No . 8 Q Ob , I ' m a o r r y . 9 A . Wo , no . 1 0 Q 1 t w a s - - 1 t w a s oo r r e o t. ? I. I. M R. . FROFHWALDi Mo :? 1 ?. 1 o w e d u p ff 1. 3 MR. f, ACHY : "Foul up." 1 4 M R . F RIJ K B WAT. I.) : 11 w as a f o 1 .low-np. .1. B M R , r, A C F Y : Is e. e , 0 Ic a y . J 6 Q- (by M T . b a o ft. y ) T h e i" ft w a < a p r e s s r e 1 e a s (3 L7 t, h c:Y t. was proposed to bo t* o l e a s e d 5. n o o n n ft o t L o n w 5 1: h 1 8 t h e C h .5 c. a q o m e e t j T1 CJ O II P C H ' s 5 n .1 9 7 5 , was there not? L9 A. You m e. .3. n t h e - t h ft b i g s 1: u d y - - y o u m ft a n 2 0 that -- that w ft. ft. k - 1 OT) CJ t. h 1 n q o n P CH ' s ? 2 1. Q i bo 1. i. ft v ft, t h a. 1: ' s o o r r ft ft t / y ft s , 2 2 A . 1 ' m T3 o t. s u r o .5 t w a s , mi t p u 1) 1 :i o r e 1 a 15 o n s 9,3 d ft. c i. dod they w a. n t e d t o put Otl t a. p V (3 s s r o 1. ease as 2A as was possible, I -- l don't remember. 3 5 Q , We I I. , j: -- wa s n ' I: I: h e r e a. p r id po s ed p v ft s s
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ro I oa
w i. t; h v o g a r d I; o Dr. Poo r ' s wo rk ?
?. A . 'Dim! w a ;? d :i f f e r a ti 1. .
3 Q . I w <). ti d j. I: f. o r e n t ?
<1 A . 'i' h o p u b .1 A c r e .1 a t. A o n :s w a n t e d t o (j c. t.
5 somol; hi ikj out*, on I; h o Poor iroporl"., and Poor did not
C w a n t. t o b c a p a r t o f t h e C h A. c. a q o -- J od ti r t. k ti o w
7 w h a t i. o o a. 1. I I: h a t - - t h e confe r e it c: a o it P C R ' n .
0 Q . Why w a a h e A r t e r e a t e d A. n d i a t a n c. e 5 ti q
9 h i in s e 1 l: ft r o in t !i a. t e o nt r e n c e ?
3 n il e d A tin 1 1 want, to q e t A n v o .1 v o d A n
11 a l a 1. d A. 3 0 U 3 3 A. O IT S . (1 o ' s (.p u A. i, e, - li c w a s
3 3 A a f A e d t 0 h a v e u n t. a k e A t t o t ii e Govern liren t
.1. 3 b u t d L d it ' h w iT n t t O (J ST t i.nv 0 1. v e d i. n a --
1 4 o v e :r s y .
3 f> H e w a a n ' t A n t., c r e s t e d A n h a v A n q h A a wo :r )<
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I. 8 A. t, a n d r e v i. e w i. i. ; j.;? I; h a l; I: h o b o11: o m 1 L n e ?
1 9 A. No, A don't -- 4 don't think that's the.
2 0 s a in < , H a j u ;$ I: d i d n ' tw a. n t; t o b i. n v o 1. v e d i n a
2 .1 r. o n t r o v e r s A a 3 d A a c u a a Ao n A n a C. o nq r ess o r a. a e hi A n a. r
3 2 o n P C Vi ' IT .
3 3 Q . Wo.I.'I , the poop] e at the seminar were
2 4 H c i e n I; A h A. r, - h y p <> p e, o p I e , w e r e i- It o y no t ?
2 3 A . Yes.
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Q . An d h e ha. d s <5 m e e o n e e r n a b o u L h i, s
2 c. o n c. .1 u s 3. o n a b e 3 n g .....
3 A , Mo, Mo, ({jus I; a a i. d .... h n a a i. d , " f ' in
4 quite wilding to have you .'lot 3 ot the dal. a at find
I: o r 1: h o in a e l ves w i. I: h t h e 0 o v o t* n m e n I; a g e n c. .1 o a an d b e
6 C] U .3 t G W .7 .3 .3 :i ri c j l.o do 1: end th eni . " 11 vi t h o d 3 d i)'t w a n 1.
7 t o (jet i. n to a d i. s r. u :5 s i. o n o I: P C H ' u i. n 1: li a t p u b 3. 3. c
8 f O T HI .
9 (.) A r e y o u f a in .3 3 iar w .1 th a c o n a o p t of a " p e e r
1. 0 r o v i. fiw io ur na, 1. " ?
1 3 h . uro .
1 2 Q . W h a l. 3 a a " p e e r r e v .3 e w j o u r n a 3 " ?
1.3 A . A " p e e r r e v 3. e w j (7 u r: n a l " 3 s o n (:; 3. n w h 3. e li t li e
1 4 p a j> o ;r ei i. hat are ri u b .3 .3 a 3i o d a r o r o v 3 e w e d b y a p a ri o .3 o f
1. b e x p e r t a w h (5 h a v ( li h e lc n o w 1 e d < j e t li a t 1; h e y o a n :5 a. y ,
1 f " v o s , ;i t. h .3 n k 13i .3 t! pa per- shon.1 d b e p 7i b .3 3 h o d . "
1. 7 I n o 1; h (7 v w o r d s , e v e r y u 3. n <j L o p a. p <7 r 3. u
J 8 r o v :'i o w o d .3 n t h a 1 f or in .
1.9 Q T h (7 r e a r e -- t h e r (7 a r (7 p o o p 3. e o I: s cion 1: i. f j. c 2 n 0 r <! d t! T) t .7 a 3 a a n d in e r 3 t w h o :r e v 3 e w p:ropo.'!ed
?. \ p (i b 1 i. o a t i. <7 n a a n d d (7 t, (7 r in i. n (7 w h e t h e r t h e y a r (7 w o r t li y
2 7. o f p u b 3 3 c. a I". 3 o ri a nd who tdier tdi e w o r k 13) a t ' d o ri e 3 s
2 3 o 1; <j o o d q ua 1. i 1: y ?
2 4 A . T ll ci t ' 7i r .1 g h t. .
2b
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I. opinion a. I; I; ha. I; Chicago sJ'/mpo j;,i mu would have boon 2 t h e e q it :i v 3 ci n b of putt. T! q i t out 3 n a p e e r- r e v 3 e w 3 j o u r na l , won 1 dn ' l. i. L ? l l. won 1 d h a v o p u L 1 i, out:, hoi. /I r e. v l e. w a n (1 c o iii m e n t a n d cr 3 t .1 o 3 a in b y o 1 h e r b s c i. e n 1: i. !5 t S , c o r; r o c I. ? 6 A . .'( i. w o u 1 d b o o n e f o r m o f d o i n cj 1 t , but :i t 7 i u n ' t o x a c b ,1. y the same a s p u b X i x h i n g l 1; s <5 m e p 1 a e e . n . 1) :1 d b o e v e r p u b X .i s h h.i s u t. u d y 1 ri a p e e r 9 r o v i. o w j o u c n a J. ? J 0 A . T d o n 1 t k n ow . J d on ' 1. t. X) 3 ri k it o . l. 1 Q And he was u n w i. 1.1 i. u g b o p u t: 1 1; o u t If; o r 1 /. p u b .1 i c. C O HI HI e. T) l. 1. o o t h e t s c. 3 e ri t. 3 t i> a t . i. h o C h A c: a cj o 1. 3 a y m p o s i. u m ; i ;7 I; h ,i. b c o r r e r. h ? J n A . !Je d 3 dn 1 1. w a ri t 1. o g e t. - - 3i e d 3 d n ' t. w a n t to 1. b d <5 b h a b . 1 6 Q b i d n * t a n b h o r 3 7 e y 0 u 10 d 0 1, h a t ? 1. 7 A . Tli a b ' a' r i. cj h b . ] 8 Q And y o u d 3 d rs ' i. d 0 3 I. , d 3. d y 0 u ? 1.9 A . N <5 , ;s i. r . ?.o Q Tb e o n 3 y p .lace y 0 u e v e r put. out h.i s opi n A ori 7. 1. was in on ft--on O 11 ft c 0 n v e r :? a t i. 0 n w i. 1: h g 0 v 0 r n m e n 1: a I 2 2 a gone i e ci ? 2 3 A . We3 3 , 3 t w a k n '1. 0 n e - Oil ~ one. T h e :r e wa t: 3 0 t j* 3 4 o 1: people i. n v (5 1. v e d i.11 bhosft meet: i. n g:? . 2 b Q. We 33 , maybe T should make it clear. You
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1 wont to a meeting with OSH A, and there wore OSHA 2. p ec> p 1 e t. h or e? 3 A, Yes, And they were people who wore his 4 equal, so the. t there was a, peer review taking p .1 ace, 3 1. o o . 6 {) , H n 1. n o t. o f t h e a c: :i o n t A f ;i. o c o m in u n :i t y , 7 g e n e r a. i. I y ? B A , No t .1 n g e n er a 1 , 1)u t 1 l. ' s .... 9 Q, Did. Monsanto ever engagein I? OB studies in :i o h 1 q h e r- an i m a 1 s t. h a n r a ts a ti d d o g na n d c. h 1 e k e n a ? i. i A , Ye:?, 3 2. Q . W It a 1. a n a hi a .1 a w e r e u s e d ? 1 3 A . We u:? n d in o n k e ys on a r e p r o d u e I; i v e a t u d y . .1 -1 Q , W h a t w a a t ii e p u r p o a e o f vi n i t\ g h i g h e r IS a n i. m a i :? n 3 6 A , Well, t. h e g o n o r a 1 concept that you h a v o 1. 7 P f.` o b 1. e m :? i. n r e 1. e v a n e e o t a. n animal, study to man , 1 B e:: p e o :i a 1 1 y A f y o u u s e a r a 1. , That's hardly a g o o d t') surr og a te i: o v m ,.i. n , W e u :? e m o n k e y s -- o r u s e r a t:? 2 0 1) o e a u a e. w o. know t. h e m q u x t e w e .11 a n <1 b e c. a u s e w c c a n 2 1 do m o r (> <?. n i m a. 1. :? , Hut L (; i. 1; w e re p o s s i. b 1. e , we would 2 2 d o a 1 .1 o f o vi r 1. o x i o o .1 og y ,i n in o n k e y a , A n d , s; a , 2 3 D r , Ail. e n h a. d d o 11 e a s L u d y o t in o n k e y s ; a n d w e w a. n t. e d 2A t. 0 .1 e a r n f :i T a 1 h a n d w h a t r e p r o d u c. t :i v e h a / a r d - - 2. B P r o b I. e m :? a re i n mo n keys.
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I. Q . D r . A 3. I e n ' s s I: u d i. o i? s h o w e d 3, h a t h i. 13 h r 2 p r 5 111 a t o s , 3 j ]< e m o a 1( o y s , wc: r e m o r e s u a c e p 3. 1 b 3 e 3. o 3 probloiiiH (:roin POR's than wore ani, mals I. i. k o rats, did <1 they not? b A , Yes . 6 Q . 2 o t h a 3. o n e w o u 3 d o x p e c: t tox 3 a off a c 3. s t. o 7 b e g v e a 3; e r i. n m o v e h 1 g h 1. y (level o p e d p r :i. m a 3-, e s t h a n in 8 r a t a , c o r r o 0 t. ? 9 A . y ft s. W e .1 .1 , " cj r e. a 3. c 'J" " .1 s Tl 0 3. - - w 3i a 3. wan l 0 1. 0 a r n 0 d i s t: h a 1u a 1: low concentra t i 0 n s , w 0 s a w a n :i i ft f f ft c t , r a 3. h 0 r 3.3i an n 0 c e;; s a r .i 3 y tti a t 3.3) e. r' e w a 3 m 0 r c i. 2 Q W 0 1. 1. , w h a. \: was 3 0 a r n e d i. n D r , A 11 on's 3 3 a t.ud 5 es wer e 3.ha3. a t c.oncer3.r a3.j on a 3.ha 3.d i d not. X 4 p r o d u c o u b s t a n 3, 1 a 1. t o x i 0 o 3: k e o 3. s3. n r a I: s , I: h o r o 1 5 w ft r o s 'u b s 3. a. n3.3 a 3 3. o x .3 c. e f f o r. t s -- 1. 6 A . '3' h a 3. ' a r i. <j 1a I; < J 7 Q . -- 1 fi p r .3 m a 3. o s ? 1 8 A . T ti a. 1; ' s - - 3. h a 1; 's , 3' i. tj h t . 3 9 Q . A n d , 0 .f 0 0 u r 3 e., Or . A .3 1 e n ' s work c 0 u .1 d 2(3 3, h er 0 f: 0 r 0 , b 0 i. n 3. e r p r e 1; 0 d 1:0 in 0 a n 1; h a t a n y l? C B 2 3 ft X J) 0 sure, wo vi .3 d r o 3 u .3 3. 3 n 3. h e s a m 0 r ft s p O Tl S ft i Ti 2 2 h u m a ns, 00 r r o c 3. ? 2 3 A. 13. won .Id bo more .1 i ]< o ,1 y to bo correcl. . 2 4 Q . D i. d y o u. u 11 d e r I; a k e s I: u d i. ft 3 1. n p r 3. m a 3; e s 2 9 y on r s o .3 f ?
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A . Ye s , 2 Q . Wh o d .i d t h o s o s tu d 3 e s 7 3 A . fi i. I:. I', o n 8 1. o n n h i. c. . f. i. t t on, L I T T 0 N ; 4 83 onei3 os , 8 T 0 N K T 1 C 8 3 Q. And what was the conclu:? i.on? 6 A. That., in fact, there; were effects on 7 monkeys- Ami It was about as he suggested; but his 8 d o s e 1 e ve.l w a s o f f b y a b o \t t 2 0, tw e n t. y fold. T ti 9 o t h o r w o v d;? , w e <11 d n ' t s e e t ha t s a m o e t: f; e e t u n t i 1 w e :i o g o t t o a. 1) o u t. 2 b p p m , a a oppo s ed to wha t h e h a d i i. f: o u n d . ] 2 Q . 8ut y our ow n -- I 3 A . 8 u b s t a, n t 1 a 1 l y t lie same finding 1 4 Q > Your own stud .it; a 3 n p r 3 hi a t e s e on firmed that I. `5 h 1 g h e r a n L m a. Is, like m o n k e y s , wet: o m o v e s us e e p l. 3. b 1 e :i ft to PC8 o f f e o. 1. s a t 1 o w e r d o b e s t h a n :r a t s y I 7 A . 1 t h i. nk 1; ha t ' s c o r v e o t , 3 8 o,. A n d w o u 1 d t h o s e u t u d 3. e s - I. 9 A . T h e o n 1. y d 1 1: f e r eno e wa s t ha t t he do:; e 1 e v e l 2 0 w a s n ' t a s 1 ow a s h e s a 3 d 3 t was . A n d t h e p r o b .1 e. in 3 21 1 t ' h a r d 1; o d o 3. 1; a. t t la a t 1 o w a. e one e n t r a t. i. o n . 2 2 Q .A n d t h e t ea s onab.'l e con c 1 u si fin of your 2 3 p V i. m a t e s tud 1 (* t. 1j 1: h a. t you would a n t i. c i, pa t e 1; um a n s 2A w o u 1 d a 1 a o b o m o ro S U S C*. e p 13 b 1 e t o PC 8-- 3 n d u c e. d 2 5 p r o b 1 ca m s a t 1. o w n r d o s e s 1; 1; a n r o d e n t, eo r c e e t ?
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l A . T h a. 1: i. r? a r o a. s o n a b 1. e i. n 1; e r p r e 1; a t i o n o 1: 2 i h a t. , y e > . 3 Q . ))o y o ii )< ri o w o f a n y rea a o n t o r e j e c. t t. h a t 4 i. n 1: e rpr e L a. h j. o n ? 3 A . Well , the only problem you've qot .i i b ft .i n g 6 a a *? u r e o (: 1; h e d o ;> e o. n d. 1: h o f: a o t that 1: h e v e a r ft a o 7 f C' w a n .1 m a .1 a :> n v a .1 v e d a n d t h ,i a - - 1h a t m a )< e a .i t 8 d i. 1: 1: i. c u l 1; , So , 1 1;'s n o t a s r e 1. j. a b 1 ft a. s i. t won 1 d b o 9 .i f we h a d do n e b0 rat a , 1 0 Q.. Wo 1. 1. , M o n a n h o e. 1:. u p t h e pr o t o c o l f: o r I-, h a. t i :i in o n k e y e x p e r ;i in e n t - i. ?. A , Y ft s ,, 11: d i. d , 1 3 Q .... d ,i d .i t ri o t ? 1 4 A , Y ft k , i h d i. d . 1 9 . You decided how many monkeys to u s o. 7 1 fi A . '(.'hat's right. 1 7 Q And you u ad enough to tee.l t hat you w e r e 1. 8 q o i, vi g 1'. o <j ft t <i m ft a n i. n g 1; u 1. r e s u 1. t:? 1 9 A . Y ft r> . ?.o 0. A n d t. h e m c> a n .i n g f u .1 r e s u .1 t c o n f i r m e d t h ft 2 1. r e :? u 1 1: o f: D r , A l 1. ft n ? 22 A . Yen , 2 2 y> S n g g ft t. i n g 1. h a t h 1 g h e. r p r 5 m a t e a , .1 i k c 3 4 m o n k <5 y s , were more ;? u s c o p t i b 1. ft than lowor an i ni a 1 s ,
'I ,i It e r ala: ?
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I. A . Y e. s . 2 0, . And 1 e.a d ,i m j t. o 1.h a r a n o n a b 1 c O O Tt c .1 U 1 .1 o n 3 b h a. b m a n , t h o r n t: o r , wo u 1 d b e m o r o n u o e p I; i. b I. n l: o 4 p:r ob .1 f>m ?! w .i I.h ]'CH ' a a I. 1 o w o:r do s o a t h a n r a t s , 5 corvoo b? 6 A . Y t; k . 7 Q. Okay. 1) n d y o n h a v e. a n y d :i r e c. t c. o n t a c. t w ,i t h 8 M o b i. 1. p tt 1.' is o nno 1 a bou 1; Lhe 1 r e p 1 doin 1 o Logical study? 9 A , '.I' h c-i o n .1 y o o'lrl.ftct 3 had was w h o n t Li e m e d ,i c a 1 1 0 d i. r e o 1, o r o a 1. 1. o d m o and told mo that I; her o w a s a 1 .1 q u e s t. .i on 0 f t 1) .1 ! - - o f t. h .i ? m o 1 a n o in a problem. Hut 3 12 h a d n o 1* u r b h o r c o n l: a <3 l; w L 1: h b h o in . 1 3 0,. That won.Id b & a o m t t i iri e 5 n .1 9 7 3 o r e a r .1 y l 4 '74? 1 b A . 1' d o rt ' t. :r o c. a 3 ,1 w >i a t t h o t .1 in e w a s . I. 6 Q . Wo 1,1 , whim y o u s a. y " t h e m o d 1 c a. 1. d 1 rec bo r 1 7 c. a 1 .1 e d yon, " obv1o n n .1 y t. h a t ' s b o f o r e yo n were t h e I. 8 m o d i. c a 1. d 1 r e o b o r ? 19 A . W r-i 1 '! , :i t. w a a -- t h a t b e .1 p s - - '74, '7b, 2 1) s o m o t 1 in e a 1. o n g i n b h o r e . 2 I . W c; .1 .1 , y o n b e (i a in o !:. h e in e d :t o a 1 d i r c c t o r :i n 2 2 '74, d. i. d n * t y o u ? 2 3 A . Yes. 3 i. w a n s h o r1.1 y t, bi e r e a f 1. e 24 Q That you had hho con bact? 2Y> A . y tt s .
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t Q, You wo r e*n' I; having any contact with Mobil,
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3 you?
4 A . .1 d o n ' t r e c a .1 .1 .
5 Q, Do you recall, over attempting to convince
6 the in to re-i vise their study and reject their
7 c <5 n c L u s i o n s ?
H A. 1 don't think 1 would have asked them to
9 r o ) o c h t he i. r t u d y .
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13 t ho ugh t 1hero wa. s w ome t h i ng wrong tcc hn i.ca 11 y in why
1 4 they did it, J would have no reason for q u a s t. J on i ng
1. 3 t h o i. r ...- w h a t I: h c y d i. d .
1 fi Q . D i c'l you eve r c o n c .1 u d e t ti e i r r e p o r t w a s
l 7 t fi c h n i. c a 1 1 y w r o n g ?
J H A. T h eir - - t h eir p a po r was with d ra w n a n d
1 9 h a:? n ' k b o o n r o s u b m i. t t e d ,
?. 0 Q. Did you r e v :i e. w t h e p a p e :r t h a t was 3 1. w i. i. h d r a. w n ?
2 7. A . No , 1 d i d n o t , p e r o n a .1 1 y ,
:> 3 Q < 0 Icoy < 3 <o r Y '5 u ' re n o t a b 1. e, t o o 1: f c r a n y 2 4 o j) i n i o n s a b o u t i 1. s a c. c u t a c y o o" n o t. ?
7. b A. , Mo .
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A m a k e s i 1. v o r y c, o wi p .1 i o a 1. e d c o n c e.rTi i ng wh a 1. wo u I d b o.
8 d o n Li .
6 Q. J ) .i f f .i cm .1 t to redo i t. a f t e r .... 7 A . 0 h , yes.
f) Q . - - t h e. a u t h o r - 9 A - Oh , y e a h . An d - - a. n d they ' v e c Ii a n cj e d t h e
:i o w o ;r )< f o r c e a t. ..... a 1. t h a t J a b o r a t o r y . T t m a k e s a -
1.1 Q < W a s i 1: M r . 11 o n d , d i. d. y o u s a y ? :i 2 A . A n 5 t a Bahn.
13 Q - A ii 1 1; a B o n d ? .1 A A . Ti A B N , :i t h .i n k h e r '1 a s t n a me was.
l. n Q . W h en d i. d M s . Hahn d i o ?
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3 d o n ' 1 k 7i o w .
1 d o n ' t r e ni e hi b e r .
1. 7 Q . I) o y o u k n o w w h o I: h e r h e r d e. a I: h w a s o n o o l:
1 8 tbe roaiioiu: 1 ha t the report, was wi thdrawn?
19 A , Wo , I d on ' t k n o w .
2 0 Q. Po yon know if that's erne of the reasons it
2 t. w a s n e v e r r o w o r k e. d a n d r o ;s u l) in i. 1: t e d ?
2 2 A . :i e a n ' t a n s w err .
2 3 Q. W h o. !: n o r I; o I: problems do you recall hoi. n<j
2 A observed in the monkeys that. Monsanto had tested?
2 8 A, The problem was .... the only one i; recall, of
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I a n y c o n noq u e n e o w a. s t h e I: o r I: i. I. i. t y i. n a s m a 1 I.
2
p o j> u 1 a t 3 o n ,i a in o n i d 3 f f 1 c u .1 tt o c. a n t r o 1 .
A n cl a .1 a. c: )<
3 of; s u 1: l: i. c i. e n 1: .... onn or twomake;? a q v o h t? dif:l:erenoo
l\ w h vi Ti y o u o /i .1 y h a v e y 3 x a ti :i in a 1 .1 ri a g r o \i p .
3 Q . W h y cl i. d M o n t> a. n I; o n o I; u n o T n d u ;> I; v L a I. n 3. o I: e s i;
6 t o c o n d u r. t. 1h c> in o n k e y exp e r 3 m e n t ?
7 A . y. <: a. n ' l a n n w <7 r t h a t d 1 r e o, t1 y b u t. in y o p i. n i. <5 n
a 3 r* t. h a 1. t h 3 a 1.3 11 O 7) B .3 o n e t .3 c. ti h a d b e e 7i d o 3 7> g m o 'n key 9 s 1; u d l o : a n d 1.; h a 1; w a y 1; h o r (5 a. s o n w o w o n 1: f. h e r cA
1 0 A s a in a 11 e r of f a c. t, b e f o r e TUT b e c; a m e
1 I. a problem, wo were s tar t i.tuj to i1 a o o thnr
3 3 1 a b o :r a t o r 3 e .
1.3 Q W h y ? 1 4 A . W e j u t; t though t 3 t wan w .3 s i:; t o h a v e m o :r e
1 5 L a b o r ator i. a s w o r k i. n g w 1 1; h u s I; h a. n on e . A n d I; h a t ....
) 6 t li e C) t h e r o n o w a y 1) r , K c; 1 1 y f e .1 1. v e r y comfor t a b 1 e
I 7 w i. I; h D r . C a 1. a u d r a. .
1 8 Q . Dr . K e .1 .1 y and 1)r , C a 1 a ndr a were v ery e .1 o ti e
19 pe r n o na l I: r i o nd. , wer e h h y no t ?
3 0 A. 1 don't, know that.
2 I. Q. You novor loo mod that foot?
3.3 A . No.
3 3 Q. 1 take 3 t von didn't fool an comfortable
3.4 w t. I; h D r . C a 1 a n d r a a D r . K o l I. y <1 i. d ; i :? I; la a I; c o r r o r. I: ?
3b A . W e .1 1 , n o t r e a .1 1 y . I -- w h e n 1 wan w ;i t It t. h e
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3 M a. 1 e o, w h o w a ;? a 1. s o A n 1: h o 1 e a d a n i. i 1c n o e k It u s i it e W *
4 A ti d , so, wo had )ia d a n a a s o c i a t. i on i ri t h e
5 e n v i. r o ri m o n t a. X - s o , I h a d k it o w n It i. m p e r s o it a 11 y h u t
f> 0 TI j y a t a prof e s s 5. o ri a .1 .1 e v e 1. a r> d the .issues, not OTI
7 a ....- o n a soc i. a I in a n n e r .
8 0. Na.lco is Nat.i ona) Lead Company - or was
9 National. Lend Company?
J 0 A . No. No. N a .1 c: o , t h a t. w a s n ' t N a t :i o n a .1 L e a d .
I. 1. Q. X see. They jus It made a Lead compound --
J 7 A . Made o :r g a n .i r. .1 o a d , t h e t e t r a e t h y .1 '.\ e a d t. h a t
13 g o e a A n (.j a s o l in e .
.
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I. 8 t h a I: i-1 t he l C o r p o r a t i. o n a 1. o in a d e ?
:l 6 A . Y e <; . T hoy w e r ft the. starter' of the
17 h u i. no:?
:l 8 Q * A n d y o i.i a n d ).) r . C a .1 a n d r a w e r e t r y i ti g t. o
1.9 e (5 n v i. n e e t h <t F, P A 1: h a It t h e r e s Ito u J.d bo no
7 0 re s tr .i c*. t 1 on s O T) .1 e a d i n g a s o 1 i n e. ?
7. L A . W e W ft ft ft t r y A n g -- w e t a llced a It o u h w h a t. we
2 7 t h o u g Li t the h e ci .1 t h e f f o c. t. s w e r e o f 1 ci a d i tt g a s o X A n e.
2.1 Q - A n d y o u ft o n ft 1. iniiTii It It a It was no ba si. u f: o r
7A r e d u ft A ti g or e .1 i m i n a t. A Tl (J 1 e a d ft. o n t e ti It i ti g a s 0 1 i Tl ft > 2 8 e o I 1 e e L, - e o r r e ft It ?
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3. A, No. Whal; wo d i. cl. is wo wore a b 1. o 1; o toll
3 I. bom w 3i o t 3> o r wo 1. houcj ii (. 3. h e ] tivcJ o3 3 c a (I. .in
3 g ao I. i n o rosul. Led i. n i. n o r o a s i ng your body burden o 1;
4 3 oad .
f) Q And tho cone] u ti i o n o f y o vi t w o r k w a h 1. it a 3. 6 i; h o r e was no need to o 1. i in i. n a 1; e l e a. d i. n g. v s o 1. i. n o'?
7
' A.
W o a a i d t b a t t it e r e w a a a m e a s u :r a b 3 e
0 iru:rea:ui but; i t was not s ub s ta n t; i. o I. .
9 Q Wovi 3 dn '' 3. hi a k f: a n y r c a 3 d i f fer e nc o ? I. 0 A , Wo I. 3 , 3i. f y o u m e a s u r o d. .1 e a d 3. n b 1. ood, 1; h o. r o
3 .1 would bo a cl:i f f oreuice; b \i t it would bo very small .
I. 3 Q . Is o a ,
3 3 A . W e q u a ti i. 5. t a t e cl t 3t a t m a g ri :i i. u d o , t 3i a t
1 4 Lno r oa so ,
J 9 Q . '.I s n o . A v> 1 u n d C'. r s t. a ti d it, w h o ti 1) r . K o 3 .1 y
I. 6 cdiiio to Monsanto as t. ho modi, on I. (tivoctor following
3 7 World War 1 I , a policy was 1. in p 3 om e n t o d at It 1 s
3. B r o q u o s t w h o r e b y t; h e c o m p a n y r o q u i. r o d I; h a h a 1. I.
3 33 i n f o r hi a 11 o ti o ti t. It o t o x i c o .1 o g y an d s a f e It an d 1 in g o f
3. 0 c I;e m i. o a 1. s o omo f: rom 11\o mod 3. ca 3. do par I; inen t .A. ra y ou
3 3 f a in i .3 1 a r w i t ft t3t a t p o .3 i c. y ?
3 3 A. I read h i. s d o p o s ,i. t ion, and I read tho same
33 tb i ng .
3 4 Q . W It o :i e d e ft o i 1. 1 o n a It a v e y o vi r o a di. n t. 3t i r>
2 fi c a s o b ofi o r o r. o m i n g h o r o I; o I; o s t; i. ii y ?
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.1. A . T. t; e a d Dr. K o 1. 1. y ' s . 'I.' h a. 1;'s t h e o n 1 y o n o . 2 G T f; e e . 3 A . A'/id i d.idTi't read the whole thing. .1 r e a d 4 h w o d ,i y :/ . r> Q .T see. Do you agree wit h Dr. Roily'// 6 u n d e r:? I; a n d i n g o 1; w li a h 1h e M o n a it I; o p o 1. 1 c y i h w i. 1: It 7 r e cj 9 r d t c> 1 n f o r in a t1 o rt o n t oxic o 1 o g y a n d /: a f e B h a n d 1. i n g o f: c h e jn i o a '). c ? 9 A . Yes. 1 0 Q is that, //till the policy of Mon/; a n t o? 1. 1. A , 1? r a c t i. e a 1 1. y i. t lu . 1 2 Q S o , t. li e. n , i n f o :r m a t. i o n -- 1.3 A , 11 u t t h e v e i. -/ n o ~ - t ho com p a n y 1 3 n o 1; o n a 1 4 p e rHon . A n d t h e T" e a r e 1 o t. s of t. h 1 n g s t h a t q o on , 1. 5 nd wo a l. w a. y s b v i. n <j t. h e in b a. o k a h o v 1; a n d <j o t i. 1; b a c k 1 6 .into the stated policy. it. doesn't .... it work l 7 w o .1. l , but not; 1.00 percent. 5 a G. But the policy is not changed? 1. 9 A . Y e !/ . 2 0 Q h e c o m p a n y p o 1 i c y 1 r, - 2 1 A . YO3 . 2 2 G - t h a t. i n f o r in a 1.1 o n o n s a f e h a n d ,1 i n g a n d 2 3 t. o x i. c o 1. o <j y c o m e u f c o m 1; h o m d i. c a 1. d it p a r 1; in e it 1; ? 2 4 A . Y e <-! , 2 b Q A n d t. h a t ' h t. h e. g :r o u p t h a 'l; y o u ' v e b e. e n
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7. 3 4
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4 Q '! n .1 9 7 9 Monsanto made a a u b m i s s i o n to 11. h e 5 `3 u b <: o m in i. 1:. t e e o n 0 v e r 3 i. g h 1; i. n I n v e 1; i. g a t i. O n 13 of 1; h e
6 C o in m .i t1. ei a o n 11) 1 e r s t a t e a n d )' o r e i q a C. o m m e r c e a f t h e
7 ft o u s e of! fi . 3 , R o p r e 3 e n 1: a t ives , And j u:? t t o i d o n t i. f y
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9 t h r o u g h 93 1 , I.J I a i. n I: i, f: I: ' a K x h L b 1 I; 8 6 4 .
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.1. 2 t h -i s t 1 t .1 e a c? e .
3 3 O, There's a section .in that document, if yon
l 4 w a n t I: o r e v i. e w 1I;, t h a I; t:a 1. !< s a bo u t t h e t o x i c o I. o gy
3b
of PCH ' a .
And Ifwon.Id assume, given the company's
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:i 7 c o m e f r o m y o u r m e d i c a .1 d e p a r t. m e n t . I s t. h a i. a
18 c o v r e c t a s s u in p I; i o n ?
3 9 A. They wouJdn't have to do it .if it won.Id
21) follow what had been done before, i I! i. I; had been - -
2 1 if they had toot i 1. from some of her document..
2 2 M It . R R fi K f! W A f, D : C a. n y o u d i. r e c I: h i.:?
2 3 a t t e n t i o n t. o t h e ... r i g h t where .it is, rather than
2 4 h a v i. n g h i. m - -
2 fi MR . LACKY: Burciy.
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L MR . F R I I K H fcl A f, D ; H o m a. y 1:1 mi lb 2 Ci .1 f f .1 0 U 1 t t o f A n d .3 MR . LA(!KY r 1 1. h A ti ); - -- 1 t h A n k T hi a y 4 b e a. b 1. e b o d o b h .a 1: . b .1 T) f a c: t, y o u ' r e r A cj h 1. t h a r e r A g h t 6 now. "Inlormation on Health K b 1: o a b 3 , " 9 0 1 a n d 7 f o 1 1 owA ng 0 MR . F R H K H W A L1) : I i t. h e re; a quest Aon 9 p o n d L n g ? h a b ' -- w h a t i. s t h e q u e s b i. o n ? 1 0 MR . LACKY: Wo .1 1 , 1 ' m t. r y A n g t. o f A ri d .1 1. <3 a 1. i f; I: h e m e d i. n a I. d (3 p a v t m o n I: w <\ s r e s p o n s 1 b 1 o f: o r 3 2 l. h a t. ;i e c 11 o n o f l. h a t fi u b tn .1 s s 1 o n o n h e a 1 t h e f f e o. t ! . 1.3 A.. r. d o n ' h t h 1. n k o . 1 4 Q. ()ty Mr. I.accy) Do yon know what, that I. 5 a u b m i. a s i <3 n r e I. a 1, e d t o o r w h a. b i b w a s I; h a. b C o n g r e :3 :j .1 6 w a fi :i n v e a t :1 ga 15 r\ g :i n 1 9 7 9 a b o u t P C n ' s ? I. 7 A . No . 1 d o n ' b -- I don ' t b h 1 n k 3 (3 . i a 0- Y o u d o n 1 t. r o a a .1 .1 y o vi o :r any o n e A a 1. h e 19 modio a 1 d o p a r 1. mo n b l) o 1 n g asked bo coni: r A b a b o b o b h a t 2 0 p r e s e n t a b .A o n tti a t w a k g o A ng to be made o r e v E> ti 2 I. k n <3 w i. n g ol; the p r e a e n b <i b i o n ; i. a b h a b c o r r o c b ? 3 3 h . Tiiat ' a r A q h t . 2 3 Q w o u 1 d y o n b. a k e a. brioi: look a 1; t h ft 2 4 A n f or hi a 1 . A o n o ti h e a .1 1. h e f f e a t s t h a t 1 a c. o n t a A ri e d A n 3.9 bhab aubmisnion, and boll me whobher bhab submission
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i. i s c o tv !j i s t e r\ 3; with t h g p o a 11 i. o n of: the mod Leal
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``5 L o n g e r I: tv a n ;j u :j t a f: <v w m 3. n u I; e 9 3: o g o o v e r a 3. 1 I: h 3, s .
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ft . -- 3. o - 9 A , T o d o -... t o d o t by g 3 a nc i ng a t .3 t, .
t 0 Q - 7. 9 e tv . bet me etv tIve doc umen t. M a y Iv e 3 1 c a n v o r y g u i c: k .3 y i d e {) t. i fy a coup.3 e of thi tig > Of 1 2 i. n 1: e r tv s 1: , M a v f> e 7 c a n ' t. I t ' 9 a long s e c L ion .
3 3 3' n 13i e s e c t .i o n t. hat. h e g a n ft at P a g e 9 3 0
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2 3 A . No .
2 2 Yes, sir.
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2 4 a o n t a 3. n e d i. n t h a t s e c t i. o iv ? 1! 9 that cons i stent w 5. t h
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.1 o .a r c i n o <j e n l c i I; y o I: P C B ' i a ? 2 A 1 t ' s a k A nd of a f)a3-3"a t.5 v e :i n I.erin :: of wha 1. 3 h a d t a k 0 n p 1. a 00, Ho, a. 1 1. 0 f' t h (-3 a e t h A n g a L h a 1; w e t' (3 4 a a i d here 3; ; w h a. 1. d .1 d take; p 1 a e 0 . And the; re ' s T) 0 5 p 1. a c e w h e r cv -- w h (3 r (3 a n y d 1 s? 10 u s s i. 0 n - i. 1; ' V5 ..... i. 1; ' S3 > in o :r e o f a n a r r a t :i v e than a n y t h .3 n g e .1 s ft, a. n d 3 t ' s 7 e or t:ec t as a 13arra t l v<3. 8 Q. That, narratj ve .leads the .impression - - or 9 X o a v e s I; h 0 i m p v e :? s ion, d o o s i t n o t, t h a I; P C. B ' s d o n ' t I 0 o a \i s e 0. a n o e r ? .1 1 A . 1 t doe s n' t d r a w t h a 1.. co :n c 1 vi s i 0 n . 1 3. Q M a. y I i3 e e 1:. h e p a p n r j viI; a. m 0 in e n h ? J 3 A . Hure . .1 4 Q The first r e f e r e n c; e A n t h e a e c 11 0 n 1 a t 0 1.5 P 0 n a i. ,3. K i. mb rout* h ' s 19 7 b ) 6 A . Y 0 f; . J 7 Q - - s t vi d y 0 n 1 ;i v e r c. a n 0 e. r , i ft i t n 0 t ? 18 A . y (3 13 . :i .9 Q . 1' h 0 r a ' a , t hen, a p a r a. g r a p h t. hi a t. d i s c. u f; s e s 3 0 t h a. t s tud y a. n d the M o n s' a n 1'. (3 s I: u d y and .. 9.1 A . I t j u s t d e s e .r A b e s t. h e in . 1 t d o e s n ' l. an y 2 9. m o v e I; h a n ) u s i; d (3 s e r i. b e w t\ a1. t o o k p 1. a. e e . 3.3 Q T h e -- t h e d e so r j p t.A o n A ri o 1 vi d e t. is e 2 4 d I s 0 11 j?s i on o (: D r . P o <3 r r (3 v i e w i. n <j Dr. K L m b r ou q li 1 25 2 5 slides --
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A . Ye :5 . 2 Q , -- a ti d c o ti c .1 vi d x n g t h a t t h e r e :i s r o - 3 A , T hI; ' s r i. <j h h . <1 Q , .... e v i d e 11 o e o f c a i ) <: e r ? 5 And there i.:? then a re Here nee to the 6 J 9 7 7N a 1 .i o r> a .1 C a n e o :r- .(n t; t i 1. u t e s t vi d y onA r o a J o r 7 1. 2 b 4? a a . y 0 r , r; ;i r , 9 9. r n t h e d i. s e u e s i. o n o f. poten t j. a l :t o e a r c. i n o g e n i c 5 t y a n a in a .1 s t vi d ;i e :: , there .is no 11 rotor e n e <5 t o D r . K i. mb ro uy h ' s study in t h e e a r : Y :i 2. a e v e n 15 e s o a b .1 a d d e r e a n c: e r ! .i s there? 13 A.. No, ;5 i. r .1 4 (> There :i <i n o r e f: e r e ti e e t o i. ti e .1 a p a n e s tV 1. b :5 t u. d i e H b y t o w a. n d o t h e r s o n P C. H ' s e a u ss i. ng e. v n e e j a .i ; i there y l 7 A . M o , s i. r j a Q A n d t :f o n e X' o a d t h .1 K ;i n f orni a t. i on a n d t tv i 19 s ubm i.Hs ion to Congress, and t h i.s only, one wou ld bo 2 0 .1 e f: t w x t h t h e 5 in p t e s s j o n t h a t t h e r e w a o n .1 y o n e 2 I. study that ever Hound cancer Crom PCH's and that, on 2 2 f vi :r t. h o :i~ e x a m a n a t. ,i o n , t ti a t s t vi d y w a :: n't v a } .i d ; i s n * t 2 3 t hat corr e e t ? 2 4 A . T ' in not sure that what --- w h a t c on e .1 vt r: i o n 2 b you can draw I' rom that: b e e a u s e i. 1; does n t d r a. w any
NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
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1 0 o n c 1 s I. o n .
3 Q , X K t> ' t it. cU:!i i cjricd to 1 ofive that j tnpress 5 on ?
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0 w h a i. i 'n a t. in e. a n s .
.
r> () . A n d t h e A n form a t A o n t h a t ' s p r e s e ti t e d t c> t h e
6 r o a d e r t o u s e. i n d r a w i. n g 11 s c o n c 1 u s i o n d o e s n ' t
7 p r e a e n t a .1.1 1h e 1 n f o r m a 15 o n o n t. h e; a n :i, in a 3 s t vi d x e s
8 abou t the canc er -ca us ing pot < n t ia. I o f: PCB ' s , doas
9 3 t?
1 0 A . X't d o e a n 1 t A n c. 1 u d e a 3 3 o f t ft a t; t h a t ' s
1 1 r 1 g h I: .
J 3 Q Okay. It has loo on and remained u p until
1. 3 t h e I: j. m e o f; I; h is do c u m e n I: in Hove in b e r of: 19 7 9
3 A Moris a ti t o ' n pon i t i o n t. h a t t h e r e was tio v a 3 .id ev 3 d e. n c e
I 5 1 i. n k i. ng PC r3 ' s I: o c a no e r , c o r r:ec t ?
.1 6 A . T 1) a t - - t ti a t 1 s - - t fi a t ' fi c. a r r e c t .
1. 7 Q . A n d. h h a t r e m ..v i. n s M o n a n t o ' s p o a i. I: i. o n r 1 g h i:
J fl u p t .i 3 3 t. o d a. y , d o e s n ' t i t. ?
19 A. Yes.
30 Q . In f a c t, A t was Mon s a n to 1 s p o s 1 t :i o n a t t h e
2 I. time of! this submission to Congress in 1979 that
3 3 t ft e r e w e :r e n o a i g n i f. 1 c. a n t. a d v e :r <s e h u m a n fi e a 3 t ft
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1 a n ' t t. fi a t c. o r r e c 1. ?
35 A . Yes .
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f, that are given.
7 Q. Kveri without regard to how i 1. ' a used,
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9 a 3 g n i f ic: a n t a d v e r s o h u m a n h e. a 1 t. h e f f e c 1.1: f r o m
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.1 B P C H ' ft r i g h t. u p t i .1 1 n ow, h a s n ' t. i t. ?
1. 6 A . I don ' h know tha t: .
1 7 Q, hot. me fihow you a memo written by H i .1 .1
l B G,\t'f:y to George Iti. vi. use us, dated December !. B t h ,
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I. A . Ho ' s r o 1; e r r i. n g I, o s o m o s p e o i (: i. c p a, p e r 13
2 Q A n d a .1 a o tn a k 3 ti g i" e c o in m o. n d a t. A o n s a b o u t w h a t 3 1 o d o o r; n o t d o a b o u h responding to thorn. c o r r o c 1; ?
4
. A.
A .1 1 h e a a y s - - t h e o t> .1 y t h A n g h e a a y s h ( t r>
9 is he t h 1 n k s t h o mo la noma i s s u o lias been ... - is not
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7 than t ha t.
a (). W o .1 1 , Inf a o t, the .1 a a t p a r a g r a p h t a .1 k s
9 a boil t a r o r, e n l; p a p e r by somebody n a m e d HI m m e 1; 1. t h a I;
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:i 2. v a t 5 a b 1 e r. o r r e. 1 a 15 o ns w.i t. h v a r a o xi a b A o c b e in 3 c a J
13 m o a w u r o s b u 1. n o h e a 1. t h o fi1; e o t s . "
'1 A Q W h a t d o e s h e n e x t. s; a y ? l 9 A . " 1' 1. h i. n l< w e o a n i, g n o r o the m o J. a n o m a 1. 13 13
1 6 b e c a u s e t h e p aper w a s w i t h d r a w 'fi , "
I. 7 Q And I', hat's not talking about -- wha l: ' 13 .1 8 t a '1 k 1 n g a boxi t ? A b oxi t t. h e })a h n wor k ?
I. 9 A , The Hahn work.
3 0 Q. 1 s (: e . h a t. id e m o -- 2 1 A . T h .x 1; 's a l l ,
2 2 Q. T h a t in e in o A a w r A 11 e n w :i t h :r e g a r d t c> 1. h e 2 3 g u o s lion o 1 whether Monsanto needs t. o m a k t > l: u r h h
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I. A . T b w a :i a. -- 1 L w a i5 w h a. b D r , Ga I: i- y w r 0 b 0 t (5 2. G e 0 rge Li vi rmai s , a n d t ti a t ' S! a 1 .1 . .3 Q , An d i. b d 0. a. 1. i> v/ i. b It b h e ;i. :i s u 0 f: w h 0 b h 0 r 0 t: 4 n 01 M 0 n s a n t 0 1 s g 0 i. ng t 0 c 0 n t. i n n 0 0 r n e e d a t 0 in a k e 3 a. n y P u v I: h o r n I; a. t, o in o n b s a b o u I: t h o e I. e m n n I; s d i n c u :i s e d ) in that, me wo; in that, correct? 7 A - H < i. s j u s t q 1 v t n q , a g a :i. n, a. s t a t e m ent w h a t 8 h e 1 h o u g h t a b o u t t h e. s e t h i n g s are, w 5 t. h ti o f u r t. h e r 9 t h a n t h a I: , (( o d o e :i n ' I; d r a w a n y o o n c 1 u a L o n e x c e p b .1 0 h e t h A ri k s t. h <> in e 1 a n o m a i a r> u e i s n o t g o ,i n g 1o c o m a u ]> L 1. a (j a 1 n . 1 2. Q . W h a t i aM o n a a n t o d o .i n gn o w t o m ak e :i t s 1.3 p o ii i. t:. i o n o n 1? C 8' :i k n own? J 4 A . 1 don't t. h i n 1< it's do .i n ga n y t h 1 n g t o in a )< e l 5 p o:i It i o n on PC 8 ` s , 1 f Q. When did Mo man to la at. publish papers! on 1 7 PHR ' s a. n d. t h e i. r ,xd. v e r 13 e h oa 1 I; h e. t: f; ec b :i ? 1 8 A. 1 can't answer that question . 1 don't know 1.9 I; h a I: i t h a a , 2 0 Q . 1 s e e . W e. .1 1 , a r e y o u t e .1 .1 A n g in e , t ti e n , 2 t t h a I: I; h e o n 1 y t i. m e 1; h a I; h h e p e o p 1 e w <5 r k i. n q I: o r y o u 2 2 i n t h ein e d :i c a .1 d o pa r t in e n t p u t o u t t h e i r o j> A a A o n a o n 2 3 P C 8' ;5 i. :5 n o I: i 11 p en v r o v i. e w j o u r n a I. s , b u t r a b h 0 r i. n 2 4 .1 a ws u i t s w h er e M o ns a n t o 5 ?s b e i n g a u ed o v e r h e a i t h 2 5 e (:Poe I;:? ?
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L A , W (- h a v o n ' I: - w o ' r e -- s i. n c w e ' v e n o t i n 3 the ]'CH bur..iT)(ij![! , we have do Tie 'no a t u d 5 as on P ClI's 3 s i. n o e t: It o B i o n ot t i o s t u d y . 4 0. And when war. that done? At. the t:i ine you 3 w o ro a 1: I. I. I i. n I", h o P C n b u ;? i. n e3 s ? 6 A. Wo wore out of the PCH business at that 7 time . a Q. And you, miverthe.l.es s , did that study? 9 A . Pa rdo n? J 0 (). You, n e v a r t h o .1 e ft fi , d i d t h a t a t u d y ? 1 :i A , No v e v I. LI: o (.1 i. t, ? 1 2 Q . N o . You, n e v o ,r t. h e .1 e a a ,d i d t h a t. s t u d y -- L 3 A, Yea. 1 <1 {). -- e v e n t ti o u g h y o u ' r e o u t o f t h e; P C H ' 5; ? I. 3 A , And, a g .1 in, it w.iu b a 3 o d o n t h o I: a 0 t; h h a. I: :i a t ti e A 3 .1 o n s t u d y h a d b o e n d o n e a n d w o d .i d a ' t 1.7 u n d 0 v a 1'. a. n d i. t . A n d , 3 o , w o r e p o a h e d. i. 1; j u 3 t t o h a. v o J B o on 0 .1 u r> i on s whether ..... wan that right or Tint., 19 Q , W h 0. t w o r: k h a 3 Mu. (3 u. f 1: y d o n e i n r o view i. it g 2 0 a n d p u b J i s h .i n g h .1 3 t h o u cj h t.. s o n o p i d e in 5 o 3 o g :i 0 a 3 2 I situ d i. os t It a I: have boon do no? 7 2 A. He has presented his i Tit er pr e t a t i o n of the 2 3 h o a. 1. t, h e I! f o 0. t 3 o I; P (3 B ' 3 b y r o v i. o w i. n g vi h .1 i: i. 3 2A wri tt.OTi , 2 f> Q . W h o t 0 h a it h e. p :r e ti e n t e (f t h a t ?
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A. Ho iji.we it one', e at a CM A meeting, a ini he 2 presented .it so mo othcr.r place that I can't, recall . 3 Q , r,o I; m o h a n d y o u C o r r e I: e r e n c e p u r p o s n ;3 a 4 .1) oe umen t 6 84 1 2 t hr o ugh 6 8 4 3 4 a n d. ask .i f t h e
r o i: o i; e n c o on t h e t o p r e v I; r: o w h e :? y o u r r o c o I. I. o c t. 3. o n 6 abon t t h 6) pii t) 1 3 c a 13 o n of that. P a p e r 3 n 1 9 8 3 * 7 A . T h a t - - a 1. 1. t; ft a 1; i. a i. a a r 63 p e a t o I: I: h 63 8 p a p e r t h a t fie h a d p r e s e; n 16'. d , A n d th 3 s was j u a t. a 9 p a c t .... T. t h i. n k t h i ;3 e n t3. r o. p r v- o e d i. n g a o f tha t J 0 m e fi 13 n g ho a 11 e ti d e d , a n d t fi 3 a wa ti a pa rt of 1. L s o in e t h i n g t h a. t w a s j u :3 1; a p a r : o f: t h o a e p r a o o e d i ngs 1 2 Q . A n d t h a t w a a p u b .1 3. a h e d 3 n 19 8 3, w a s 3 t n o t .13 A . Y e S3 , s i. r . 1 4 Q . A n d ft 3. s w o r k a u g g e s 1:. e d t h a t t h e r e was T) o
o p i. d e m I o 1. o g i. c a 1. d a t a -- 1 6 A . V e s , s :i r . 1 7 Q - 1 i nk i ng FOB ' a wi th ciincer , correct? 1. 8 A , Y os. 1 9 Q. Okay . What about )):r. L.i v.i riffcnui? What sort 2 0 of: workha. :3 he done reviewing .Literature and putting 2 :i o vi t o p i n 5o n f> o Ti w h c t h e :r o r n o t P C W 1 a o. a u s e a d vers e 2 2 h o a. I. t h e P P o c. t s ? 2 3 A . H e r e v 3 e w o d t fi e ;i s a u cot c a n o <: ,r a s r e .1 a t e d 2 4 to pen's i. n depth. 2 9> Q . And h ow d 3 cl h e ge t h 3 s op3 n 3 on o u 1. ?
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I. A. H o u b m i. 1t d i. t fc o o n o o I: t h e t <3x1 c o 1. o g y ?, ;')oin'jia ] !i , and they s a :i d .it. was too long to publish. 3 Q. ill on wo:i th.it 7 4 A , B e v e 3" a .1 y c a r s a g o , 11 w a. ;] u st t o o 1 o n g . 3 I t ' s a. h i g i t. ' m a t h i. c k d <3 c u m o n t; and you c n. n ' 1. e> h a r d .1 y p u t t. h a t :i n a ;i o nrnal, t o h a v o a ti a r t. i C .1 ft 7 1; h a 1; 1 o n g . B Q- T it e e . A r e t h e t e a t i .1 .1 :r e s e j r e hers who a t 9 d (3 i. n g research and publishing in t h o a r e a (3 P e c n * s ? 3 0 A , Yes. The Kin mcd:.t pap ex- wa s c> n e o ) the 1. 1. roc e n t <3 n e a t h a t; ' s been published 1 n t h e 1 a s t c oup 1 1 2 o f y e a r s . T b e r e a :r ci t. h o s e w h o a r e .1 o o k i n g a 1. 13 occupational exposures. T'lie re arc those who are 1 4 .1 o o k i Ti cj a t P CH .lev e .1 ;; .i n m an, t ;r- y i n g t o u n d ers t a r> d I. .9 tho d i.f! 1 (i re n c e between (3 no group or another, as well, .1 fi a h t h e p h a r in o c o .1 o g .i c h a n ci .1 :i n ga n d t h e h a 3 f .1 1 f e . I. 7 All. o i: I: h e s e t h i. n g s a r e g o j. n g o n , IB A n i in a .1 a t u d .1 e. ft , t h o r e a r e uh o r t. - t v. r in 1.9 a n 1 m a 1. s t u d 1 e s t h a. t ar e go i. n g on r e 1 a t ed to I; h i n g s 2 0 J 5 k ee rrxy iri o 1 n cl u c: t. i o n ; b u t 1 t 's r e a .1 .1 y .1 1 t t .1 e. 7 I. p 1. e c o m e a 1. t h i. n g s t h a l; a r e g o 1. n g on now. 2 2 Q . There st.i.l.l 1 n an academic interest in PCB 2 3 r e s (3 a roll, i. s l, h o r o n o I: ? 7A A . Yes, b c*. o a u s e i t. ' s a n i ti t. e r e t i n g c h e in i o a 1 . 2 9 Q . T h e r e ' :-] a l. s (3 a n i. n 1; e r e t-j t b e c a u s ti o fi t. r y i. n g
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I to (: u i: I; h e r know lodqu about the elrfeo t:5 of: POB's on
2 those who have been exposed to them; isn't that,
3 cor reet?
4 A . T ti e y w o u .1 d b o r e 1 a t. e d , o e r t. a 3 n 1 y , H u t. t. h e y
3 u s u a J. 1. y n t; a r t o u t w 1. t h an answer to a :? p e c i f: 1 c
f> q u e f! 1.3 o n , a n d t ti e n t. ti e a p p 1 3 o a t. 3 o n 3 a m a d e 7 Q . Who L s R m m e 11 ? You r e 1: e r r 13(1 t o s o in o R in m e 11
a p a p e. r ?
9 A . He's p7"o f es s or of or, cu pa t 3 ona 1 in c:d 3 r. 3 ne 3 n
.!. 0 h h e `3 dioo 1. o f 1? u b 1. i. c U o a 1.1: h a I: J o h n a Hop k 3. n s ,
1 1 0= Do you know him?
I. 2 A , I've in e t h i. m . He's a d e r m a t o I. oglu t t; r <1 i. n e d
:i 3 at. the llm.i verni ty of C.i Tiflirniati , And, so, I say
I. 4 hello to him; but that's about as much contact as we
.1 a h a v e ,
1 f> Q. . D o y o u k now s p e c 1 f .i r a ] .1 y w h a t. h 3 s p o s 1 t 3 o n
I. 7 a t t h e J o h n s H o p k i. n s 1 s ?
3 a A . I - - I t. ti 3 n k ti e. ' i p rofen s o r o f o c c u p a 13 on a .!
1.9 m e d 1 o i n e 1 n k he ',3 ch 0(3.1 o 1: P u b 1 1 c H e a 1. k h .
3 0 Q. It a v & you ha d o c. c a ) i o n t o m e e t h 3 hi a t 3 1. p rotes s 1 o n .i 1 in e e !; i. n g s ?
3 3 A . No ,
2 3 Q it a v ft you had o r c a S 3 O Tl t o r c-3 v 3 e w ti 3 i w o r k o n 24 PCH ' s ?
2 3 A . I r c. a. d t.ti a t -- t.ti e papor th a t. he ti a.s don o
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I. o n I; h e b i. <31 (3 g i. c e f: (: e c I; s , y o s .
?. Q . y o u a :r e H o a r <1 c. e r i. 3 f 3 e cl 3 n o c: c u p a t. a o n a 3
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A . Yen , a3 r .
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hi Q. Chti y o u 3 cl e a t .3 f y for me the f 3 v e or f; 3 x
6 3. o a d L n g i. n s 13. t u I; 3. o n is i n I', h e a o u n I: r y in I; Ii e a r e a (3 f!
7 o c o u p a 13 c> n a 3 m e d 3 <*. 3 n e ?
,
8 A, Start out by ..... with Kettering [laboratory
9 3 T> 0 3 i) c 3 n ri a 13 , T h e o e c u p a 13 o n a .1 h e a .1 t h g r o u p u p a t.
J. 0 M 3 e h i. gan, the grout.) at; Johns Hopkins, I; ho group at
:i :i S a ti F :r a n o 3 s a a .....
3 2 Q . What 3 ris 1.3 t u t.3 o n 3 ti S a n F r a ti c. 3 r: c o ?
13 A . T h o (J n 3. v o r s j. t; y o f C a J. i. 1; o r n i a i n S a n
:i -1 F r a n o 3 a o o , J t. h 3 n k .
3 s ..... and the group at Sal t, fake C3 ty .
1. 6 Q . W h a t i. n o t i. t u t i on?
1 7 A> University of Utah.
1.3 Those aro about 1;he - - to me, are the
3 9 h .3 g ti e s t ran k 3 n g .
2 0 Q . So, t. h a t 1 s 11 n 3 versa t y o f C ,i n c. 3 n n a 13 , John a
2 l H o p k i. n s , M i. o h i g an, U n i. v e r s i. t y o f C. a L i f o r n 3. a S a n
2 2 Fr a n o. 3 {? c. o , Un 3 v er:a 3 ty o f 111.a h a 1 S a 1 t Lak e 0.5 t.y ?
2.3 A. Ye a .
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2S the comnipondence and studies with regard to the
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I. c h a n ge i. nt I'! e I B 'I.' r e p o r I:w h o r e l: h e 1' B T 1 a n g u a g o o (: 2 " s> 1 :i gb 1. .1 y t.nin or .i g oti i c: " w a s c h ati ged 1. o " does no i 3 appear to bo care i nog on i c . " Ami let mo a ta r t o I! 1: by 4 a s )< i ii g y o xi 1 f y o u h a v e ;r o v :i e w e d t h e. o x h :i. b i t S l-. o `j D r . b i v i. n s c u a ' d e p o a i. 1: i. o n ? 6 A . Yes . 7 Q- Did yon revi e w D:r . hi vin s cu s ' depo s i t .i O Tl ? 8 A . No . 9 0 You did t ho w e ve r, g o t hrou g h th e e x hib i t s ? l 0 A . You, b u t; q u i c. k .1. y , .1.:i Q - !l u r d e r- s t a ti d , L o t me - -I 2 A , it: w a s o n a weekend. T did that while T. :i 3 w a i g e t t. x n g r e a d y for a r> o t. h o r m e e t i n g . u Q l n o e . Let m e e o m e o v e v and l o o k w i. t h you :i. s a 1. s o in e o f 4. h e s e e x h i b i t s i. o s e e if w e. c. a n I. 6 u n d e r s 1: ami the change a t h a t took p 1. a e e . :i v 7 f .i r n 1. w a ii t. f o c'i i rent your a 11 enti o n IB t o t h o R x h i. b i. 1: 2 1 to Dim, L i. v i. n t? c u s ' d e p o *.3 i t L o n , a :i 9 1 e. 11 (-y d a 1hid i) u l y .1 81 h , 1 9 7 B , fro in Dr . hi v i ri s cu s to 2 0 D r . C a l a n d r a . I n t h a t 1I. e t t e r, Dr. L i v i n s c u s 31 r e g u e s t e d t hat the Aroc.lor 1 2 r> 4 r e port, be amended t o 2 2 nay `'does n o t a. p p e. a r t o b e c a r o i n o g o n i. c " ; i.:> t lx a t. 2 3 c o r .1" o c t ? 3 4 A. You, 2 b Q. The report had previousiy stated that the
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1. A r; o e 1. o r 13 5 4 w a ;3 S3 l i. g h 1; 1. v t u m o r 1 g e n 1 e ? 2 A . y e s: , i: i r 3 - N o w , .1 si t h e r e a n y y u e ; t :i o n .i ti y o u r in :i n cl 4 t ha. t t.ht in a cl o t h o c ha. nge s ugge u tod by Dr. b i v i. nu e ua ? b a . .'1 s t h e r e a n y g u e s; 15 o n t h a t 1. h e. y cl 3 d ; ;i s 6 that - 7 a. Y c-: s . I 1 t her' e any q u e r t. j o ti in y o u r ki .i n d 8 b u t t h a. t HIT m a d e l: h e c h a n ge re g u e ;i t e<1 by 3 D:r . .1- ,i V ,i n r c u s y 0 A . M y i in prc-i si a j on t1) a t 4. h e y d i d , y e;; . 1. o . Okay . A n d. 1. h a t e h a. n g e o o n a i s 1. e d 1: a k 1 n g o u t 3 t h e .1 a ngua ge " r, .1 -i g h t .1 y t u m o r i g e n i c. " a n d r e p 1 a r. 3 n q 5 t. 1.3 vi i. I; h the language "does not appeal.- to be 1 4 c. a r c. 1 Ti o g e n i v. " ? 1. 5 A Y o ti , i. r 1 6 Q. 0 ): a y . !l l. h o n g h t. e a r I :i o. r w e h a d si o m e. 1 7 c o n f u: i. o n a b o u 1: w h a t h a p p e n e. d . 1 8 A No, si 5 r . J 9 Q Now, :i ti that regard, a p r o d u e t. t h a, t i a 3 0 1: u in o v ' genic: l:; on that continuum o f: prod u e t a 1: r o in a. 3 :i p r o d vi c t t. h a t h a si ti o off e c t 't. o a ji .r o d u e t that e a u a e a 33 oaneer 3 3 A Yes , si i r 3 4 Q -- i. :> n ' t t h a t, e o r r e e t ? 3 5 An d i t. w o u .1 d b e ! .1 gulf .i c. a n t , t. hen, L o
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1 n o t e ... - o r t k now w h o h h e r a p r o d u c 1 o, r e a t: e d t u m ora, 2 w o \i .3 d n ' 3. f. t ? .3 A . Y ta :? . 4 Q - 11, w o \i .1 d a .3 a o 3) e a i g n i f i c a n t t o U n o w
w h o 1:. h o r 1; h o p r o d u e 1: c r o a t e. d o n 1 y t? !. i g la 1; 1'. u m o r a o r 6 in o r e i. h a n u .1 .i gfi t tn mor s; , wou ,1 dn ' t a t ? 7 A . Y o:? . R u 1: 1: h a. t ' s a <j u a. 1 i. t a t i. v e d e e i. s i. o n a Q ` :t u n d o r 3 t and. 9 A , Y o:? . ! 0 Q I I u i :'i 1. - - b u t I. h o d o g r eft w o n .3 d b e 5 in p o r t. a n t 1. 1. a n d a l g n t (: i. c .a. n l; , c o r r o c t ? 3 2 A . yes . 3 3 Q ;i f a report concludes-! that a product 5 3 1. 4 t u in o r i. g e n i c , 1; h a I; ' a a ;; 1 g n L 1: 3. c <3. n 1; m a 11; e r, is L t n 0 t ? 3 3 A . Yes . 3 6 Q - And .it would .indicate that, the product. .i n 1. 7 q u e h 1:1 o n i s n (3 in o w h n r (-3 a 3. 0 n g t h a t c 0 n t: i. n u u n\ 0 f. 1 R p r o d u c t a t h a t. c a n c a u a e c a n a 0 r ? 1 9 A . 'P h a 1; m a y 0 a u 3 e c a n c e r . 2 0 0. 3 ,f t h e: r e 0 r t in e r 0 .1 y s a y s t. h e pi r 0 d u c t i a 2 I. not care i. noijen i.c , that In and of L t s 0 ,1. provide:! n 0 2 2 1 nf o rid a t. a on about whether the product, is nnywti nr 0 2 3 along 1. Iia t continuum of: product:? that may cause 2 4 c. a n c c. r, d o e s: :i t. ? 2 3 A . ,`f f t. h a t ' a t ti 0 0 n .3 y t fi 1 n g i t a a y a . n u t. t. h a t.
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x i? n * t b h e only b h L n g 3. b j? a ul. 2 0.. We.13 , lei', me a fi k you a lit t. .3 e bi t about, the 3 w a y t h o:? r o p o v b s a. r e w c i. b I: e n , T h e w a y h It e ;? o 4 r e p o r t. a a r n w r 1 t ten i a a 1.' a p o t a n a a- r a t1 v e i; u m in a r y b <) l: the re port SI tj 1. 1. o w o d l) y a. i. o 1. o (: d e l: a i. 1. e ri 6 inf orma t .i on that. B & 0 J 1e n I. i a 1 c. a ti u n d e r a t a n (3 ; .i n t. h a t. 7 o o c x' e <: b ? 8 A. Yea. 9 Q . A n d t o 1 he ex 1 e n t a .1 aywati, 1 .1 k e m e o r a n y 1. 0 o I; h e v n o n s e i. o n b i f; 1 e -1. r a I. n o d p erson, wore b o p .1 c l< u p 3 3 o ne of t h e fi e reports and try t o m a 1< e fi <X T) ,<! e o u 1. o f t 7. i h , a h o u 1; all y ex u e o u 1 d m a k e ;; e n s e o u b o 1: wo u 1 d bo 3. 3 t. h e fi u m in a r y , isn ' t 1 1. ? 14 A , No b bo a scion1 is b, 3 8 a- T d i d n ' l n a y " a s ci i c n t. i fj t. . " 1. ft A . Y e n , 3 7 a. I fi a i d " a 1 a y in a n . " 3 8 Y.:? n ' b h h .x b r, o r r e o b ? 3 9 A . T ti a t ' s p :r o b a b .1 y r i g 3i b . 2 0 0. * And. t h e in os t, 1 m p (X r i; a n b b h 1 n g <x u h o f b h o 2. `J. w h C) .3 e; r e p o x't 1 fi going to be t ti e c o n o 3 u s 1 o n , wh a i. 3,7. t h e b o 1: t o m 3. i. n ox; i, :-x n ' b t h a t <: o r r e c.l; ? 7.3 A . 11 (I e p e n cl s o Ti w h o s e 5. t ' a f o r - - w h o t b a 1. i a 7.4 w r i. b I: e n I: o r . 2 8 Q. 3 C a .layman .4 ? try a rip to reutl and
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u n d. n rs I;a n d h h e r e p o t: I'. I; o t h e ex hen I; h e c a n , t lx n ui o s I: 2 :i m p a r t n ri t. t. h 5 n tj i s 1 h e c o n c 1 xi 3 o T, 3 s i 1 t 5. t ? 3 A . M.' o a I, a y m n xx, yes. 4 Q . A n d w b e n y o u c h a n g e i h e c a n e .1 xi s .i o n f r o m 3 s ay i. mi " h h o nroilmv!'. r. a n e a ti *.? e I'.umor,!" to :? a y i. n g ''ll, 6 c a n M. c. a u s cx o a n c e r , " 1. h a t ' a a a 3 g ri ,i f i o a n t c h a n g e , 7 i h ix ' t i I: ? 8 M P . P P11 P H WALD : L e t m e 3 ri t e r p o a o 9 here. You're t a I. k t n g about the cone l union being i n that one .sentence or the entire firs t page, which I1 t a 11< s a lx o u t t h o t u m o r s ? i 2 MH. LACKY: Well, that's the same 13 t h l n g - :i 4 M K . P K1) P H W A L D : You' r e f o c u s i n g o n
o n 1. y one par a graph out of: the page; Is that what you :i 6 a r e 7; a y i Ti g ? 3 7 MP. I.ACPY: No. '.l ' in .... 1 ' m g o i n g t o 8I. t h e part o 1: t h e r e p o r t t, h a h s ays, "In c o n o 1. u s i. o n . " 1 9 A . Ye 2 0 MP, PHUPHWALD: A } .1 r i cj h t . .1 g ti o r 3 n g 3 I. t h e 1' l r a t p a r-.ujra.ph above t lx a t? 2 2 M H . LACKY : No. T t h i n k T ' m n o 1. 2 3 1 ( / n o ring any h lx i. ix g . 2 4 (>. (by M r , T. a c o y ) L e t m e a s k y o n : W h e r e i s 2 3 t h e -- 1 e 1: m o d i r o c t y o u r a t I; e n t i. o n h <x the report
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t dated March 24th, 1. 9 7 8 -
2. A . y d .
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6 s u b m i. h t e d., " " T. n o o n e 1. u s i. o n , "
7 MR. KRllKHWAl,)) ; irnderneat.li where it
8 a ay a "Huminary, " you're talking about, up here at the
9 1 op --
1 0 MR. 1. A CK Y r Yes,
1 1 MR. FRUKHW A T,D ; -- of the page, nay a,
1 2 " 3 \i in in a r y , " you' r e. X' c-: f o :r i- 4 n g t o --
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2 0 MR. FRUKWWALl): Okay. you're
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22 MR . l.AC'KY : .If thcrre's a problem
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I. Ignor i. ru) "Summary," B U M M A R 7"? 2 MR > LAC MY: No, I'm not ignoring it. .3 M R . F 8 II K (( WARD ; 0 l< ay . 0 o .1 h o <3 d . 4 Q , (By Mr. Lace.', y) My quo.sit.ion to you 5 si : in b t h e c n e 1 u h L o n n ft e t i. o n , it i. h ;i i. g n i. i. e a n t, i.;? i. t; 6 n o t, t o h a y t h e*. p r od u e; t 1 H " n on care; i nog o.n i c. " t a t. h e; r 7 t h a n t. o a y " i. L iMinns 1; u m o r e " ? B A , :r t. h i n k If h a v o t o i n c .1 u d ce t. h ce w h o .1 e s u m m a r y 9 w h e n I H ay thft i. n ter pro t a 1; :i. ons tha t e o u 1 d b e d r a w n 1 0 f r o hi 11.. Y o u e a n ' t - - t o t. a 1 k t e> n O 111 o O Tl ft -- a I l 1. ay man and nay "do oh not a p peat' to be on. re i. nog on i. e , " 3 2 h e r o n .1 .1 y cl o o s n ' t. vi n d c; r s t a n d t h a t . A n d t. o ti o t -- t. o 1.3 h a k e i. t b y i I; s e 1.1 i. n o t a p p v o p r i a 1: <3 . 1 4 Q 1 n e tr . W o .1 1 , Is ti ' t t. h a t. what t.he 1 a y in a i > i I. 5 going to 1 o o k a t i. n 1. o o k i n g f: o r t h ft hot I; o m line. .1 6 "bo e h it e; a u a c cancer or not?" I. 7 A , T b i.j? i. ;5 w r; i. t t c n 1! o r t o x i. c o log i h 1; s , b h i s 1 8 report. , 1 9 Q. Von know, thee ;i junifi that, you were con cor need 2 0 about when you mol; with Dr. Cal. and ra on April tilth, 2 .1 19 7b, wan the bottom lino question, do oh it era use 2 2 e n n e e r o r n o t; 1 s n ' I; I; h a t r i g h t ? 2 3 A. (No reepo'oee) 2 4 Q ,, I, ft I; m ft s h o w you t h o 1 e I: t c v - 2 b A . I - y o f! ,
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HARTOLDMON0024420
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1. a bou t .1. 2 b 4 , b u I; I t In i. n k a 1. I. t In o c In a. n g e u w o r e m a d e a 2 Dr. hi v i n s c u a 1 r o g u e. ,c: t , 3 MR . P RIJKHW AIM) : W o 1 l, you may think A t h a t . T h e T' e ' a n o o v :i d o n c e o f i t. . b MR . LAORY: Wo' 1. 1 ? o e . We' 1. 1. u o e , 6 MR . F R [1 R H W A 11D : A .1 I right. I know of 7 no rv i d.o noo. o f; i i;. B A . Wh a t ' s; t.h e d a t e o f t.h i PCR in e. e t. i ng? 9 Q . (n y M v . i', a. c e y) I'm a o r r y ? :i o A . W h a t. w a s the d a t e o f this in c e t. i ri g ? 1.1. Q. 1 1: you' I J. turn to i. in mod i a t o 1. y prer.ed i. nij -- ] 2 I 1 h .i nk :i t. ' n March 19 - 13 A , It; ' 15 A p v i. I . 1 4 Q . I e c>. . Okay. I. .4 V U H V I D fi 0 0 R A P H K R : It x c u a e m o . 1 n e e d 1 6 i o t a 1< e a s h o r t p a u n e . I. 7 MR. I, A CRY: Oka. y, IB *.P I) N V :n) R O G R A P H KR : W e ' r e g o i n g o f f t. h e I. 9 r o c o rd . T h o I; i. in o. i. a 3 : 3 2 p . m . 3.0 ( S h o r t. R e c e s a ) 3 I. T H R V 10 K o G R A P H H R : We're n o w b ac k o n ?. 2 t h c. r e c o r d . T h e t. i m e i si 3:32 p . m . 2 3 MR. F R (J li H W A fi D : Would you ropea.I; the 2 4 cpu:!it..i on? I have forgotten .i t in the: exchange. 2 5 MR. LACRY: Yes.
NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
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I. Q (I3y Mr, ha coy) 'l.' It e c o n e 1. u s ). o it to the study
2 c, ft a itgod at Dr. 1.3 v:i n g c. ti a r re quoin t. was* 3 t. not?
3 A . I do n ' t 1; h i. it k s o .
<1 0.. You don ' 1, th.ijik ;i o ?
5 A , N <7, g i, r ,
6 Q Wfiy not? 7 A . 33 e c a u s o w ft e n T was u p w .i t ft Dr . Ca .1 atidra and
13 go i. nq through a I. L the a 1 .1 d os, -h e told mo a I; that
9 t 5 m e .3 t w a, o no t. c a rc i ti o g e n .5 c ,
l 0 Q . W o 1. I. , w h y , t ho n , d 1 d 1) r , b 1 v 1. n s c u a w r i I; o a
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1. 2 A . n e r, a u s <5 th op a. p e r s w e r o w r i 11: e n w i. 1: h u I;
3 3 T ec ogn 5 x i ng w ft a t. ft a cl b e en a a 3 d a 1. t ft a t m e e l..i ng .
1. 4 Q , W h a I; T13 'i' wr o t e a n d. g u b in i. I; f. o d t o M o n a rt I; o
:i b w a a rt ' t w ft a t M o n a a n t. ow at r> t e d , w a s .i t ?
i. a A . i: 1; wax wlta l: Cal. a it dr a fold ino when I w 0 It t u p
:i 7 t ft e r e and re v a e w e d t ft o a e ft .1 .i d e a w 3 t ft ft .3 in, that they
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2 3 w a a ,1 t?
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2 3 Q. . :i i. w a a t fi ci r e a e a r r. fi e r a w fi o d 3 d .3 t 2
24
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2.9 . T ft e researclimi who did the r e p o r t nil ;i d ,
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I. v/ a. n t t o s a y 1t'g t u m o r i i] e ix L o , " d t d n ' t they? 9 A . T h e y - - t h e y d i d n ' t. w h e n t h e y - - when we
3 th o r e view.
4 Q . A f t e r M o n nan 1. o a s 1< e d t. h e e h a n g a t o b e m a d e ,
5 I: h & n t h o y s a i d a o in & t h 1 ii g 1 s e , d i d n ' t I: h e y ?
6 A . T h e y sal d t. fi e e e ri t r a .1 1 ;; s xi e is whether t h :i s
7 i. a o a. n c o v o r not. And h e sa 1 d , " T h o long - t e v m s t u d y 8 c o n d xi c t e d b y H a o t. e s t. 1 n d i c a t. e c t. h e a nswer :i. s , no , 1 t.
9 i a n o h c a r e 1 n o g e n i. c . "
.1 0 Q . An d i 1. wa sDr. 1.1 v .i n s c u awho a a k ed tha t t.h e
l I. r e p o r hb e e h a n g d h r o m s a. y i. n g t h a t B C! B ' a a r e
12 t. xi m or :i gen ! c to .instead say they are Tioncarcinogenic,
13 i s n ' I; i I; ?
:i. 4 A . Yes, b c: a xi a e o f t h 5 g .
1 *5 Q . Dr. R o u s lx , I: lx e r e i. a a .1. o I; o I: d i. i: l: e v e n c e
1 f) bet.wp.cxTi being able to trumpet. in the pro a a that, a
t 7 v o p o r t f. r o m 1 B T g a. y o h h a. t I? 0 H 1 g w e r o n o rx o a r c 1 n o g e ix L o
1 8 and bei ng a b.1 e to t.:r\impet i n the pres s that a repor t.
l 9 f! r o m I B T s a y a B (B ' a w e r e o n 1. y s L i. g Ix t I. y t u m o v i g o n i. c ,
2 0 i s n ' t 3 t. ?
2 1 M R . R R U KII WALD: bo t. in e i n t e r p o ft e
22
h lx e r e ,
T lx o r e ' a n o I: o u n d a t i. o n IT o r h r u m p e I: i. n g any o 1:
2 3 t. h .1 n s t xi f. f j n t. h e pr e u r, . A n d what ' si t h a t a .1 .1
2 4 about? That's a puro I. y lxypothetio.il q ueHtlon that
2 b nobody ban done.
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1 o b j e c 1; 1. o 1. h e g u e s I; 1 o n a s b o i. n g ?. p u r o .1 yhypo 1. b o 1. .i c a .1 , No b o d y t r u m p e c'i t. b 1 s 1 n l. b 3 p ros s . 4 () . (Hy Mr. La coy) Wbatrepronont.aU oris d .i d
y o u ma. I< e L. o a I. 1. th o g o v e r n m en I:a 1 ag o n n i. os whon yo u 6 went to tb on .in November of ,19 7b? Tit at 1 NT studies 7 had shown I; hat they wore non oaroinogen i.c; Isn't that a correot? 9 A . P .1 u s t h e P o o r :i ti t e r p r e 1. a 1.1 o rt, a o m e t hi n g o n i. I) the same s u It j o o I: , 1 J Q. And when the Monsanto went to the Senate, l 2 w h o w a. a i it v s I; 1 g a I: i. n g t h e 1 s s u o o (: P C B ' s , f o r j a w It a t e v e r r e a a o n , i t r e p o r t. e d t b a t t h e If B 'J' a t u d i. & a i. t h a <1 found P C B ' s t o b e n o n c a r n i. n o g e n i o , d. 1 d n ' I; i. t ?
A . Yes, :i f. Q. It wouldn't bo nearly so pleasant to have 17 to report that the IB'l,' study had concluded that .1 B P C: B ' a w e r e t u m o r 1 g e n 1 c , would 1 t ? 19 A . 1! d o n ' h t h 1 n k s o . f d o n ' t think t h o v o ' s 2 0 in u c. h d i f f e r e n o e b e t. w e e n t h v. tw o . 2 t. Q . Y o u c a n ' t s o o m u c h d i. f: f! et* e n c e -- 2 2 A . No , 2 3 0, ..... bet, ween 1, he two? 7A 1 f t h a r e w a s n ' t. m u c b d i f f e r e n o e 2 3 b e I: w o o n t h o I; w o , w h y 1 n t h o w o r I. d d i. d D r . f. i. v i. n s c u s
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3 t h e y la a d a i d .
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6 o t h e r , Cl O ft ft 5 t ?
1 A . I t; ' s in o r e :i m p o x-1. a ti t to ft a y ft o in e t h i n g a ft n o t.
8 c a t' c l it o <j a n i. c 1: h a. n i. t i ft t (5 ft a y t h a 1: i. t; ' ft
9 t. \i )o o r ,i g e Ti 1 c .
i n 0. . A ti d t. b a t. ' a why Mo n a anto wanted the way It
1. 1. w a s :) .11 d o h a n g e d , w a ft n ' l`, 1. 1; ?
1 2 A . We w a n t. ft d t o a a y w b a t t h e y ft a ,i d 5 t s b o u 1 d
L 3 ft a y
1 4 Q . You w a ti 1. e d 5 t ft a ,i d the way that was mo tit 1. 8 l:avor,ible, d i. d n ' t Y o u ?
1 6 A N o , ft ;i r ,
1 7 Q . T h c>. product waft def 5 n :i t e .1 y t u in o r :i g e n ,i c ,
1. 8 w a s n ' 1; i 1: ?
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2,0 Q . And t b o r e w o u 1 d n ' t b e a ti y r e a ft o n 1 n t. b e 2 i w o c 1. d t h e. ft. o n c 1. u 1. o n ft It o u. 1. d n ' l: r e .3, d , " F? C H ' ft a. r e.
2 2 t u in o r :i gem i o . " 'I1 b a t won 1 d , ;i n fa e t, be a very p r o j> o r
2 3 c o n e 1, u. ft i. o n , w o u 1. d n ' 1; i.t?
2 A M 8 . KRUKI-) WALD : Y o u in o a ti a c o n e. .1 u y :i o n
2 8 o n I; e n c ft / a g a 1. u , a r e. y o u -
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.1. MR . h A.C R Y : Vos . 2 MR . KRUKHW Aid) : T h e n i) m in a r y says .i t ' 3 h u m o r i. g e n J. c , bu t t h o o o n c 1 u 3 i. o n 3 e n t (7 n c o d o e 3 not. 4 I 3 t h a t w h a t y o vi a r o i" o. f o r r 1 n q t o ? Fi MR . h A C. K Y i Y e h , I; h a 1: ' 3 e x .1 c 1: 1. y w h a 1; 6 T ' m reforr1 hq to 7 MR . FRfJKflMALD : 0 k a y .
a A . J don ' t r e a .1 1 y ft e e a q r e a t d e at of
9 d. 1 f: (: o r o n c a , j: 1: i I; 7 3 a 1. 1. p a r 1: o f: I; h i 3 -- i. 1: 7 3 i n t h e 1 0 r: a m e p a r a q r a p Fi . 1 1 0. (a .7 id j" . I, a (In y ) W0 J ,1 , 1 el. 7 n q o h a o. k a n d 1. 2 t a. k o a. 1. o o k a. t w ha. 1; Mon 3 a n t o 1; o l d t h o U . `.I . Congress :i 3 1n 1979, .1 4 MR , )' R U K H W AM) : 1) O 0 3 71 ' t t h c d o c n in e n t i a 3 p e a k f. o c i. t n e 1. 1: , M r . h a. c o) y , T m a. n , a ;7 t o w la a. 1', .... .1 6 an to what, that doc moon t says? In there any -- 1.7 o. n y t h L n g t o b o ij a i. n o d b y a.:? k i n <j t his w 1. I: n e s :? a b o u I: :i 8 it again or- roadin (| :i t. .into t. ho roc. ore! again? 1.9 r h ;? a y :3 w h a. t: j, I: 3 a y 3 , T h i. 3 i. :3 j u 3 I; 2 0 a rg u m ent . 2 1 MR, 1,ACKV i No, i t ' 3 ri o t a r q u m e ti t , 2 2 M H . R R U K H W A r. D : t' h i. 3 i. 3 n o I: 2 3 q n v. a t1 o ri ,i n g a n d a n r> w e r 5 n g . 2 4 Q. (Hy Mr, it-u'.oy) hot mo a 3 k you : In tho 2 b pro;; oritat.i on that Mon canto made to C oti q re s fi in .1979,
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1. i 1; o n 1. y r e 1: e r red 1: o the nonolusory non l:om:o o 1; the
2 HIT re p O T t. s , d.i d .it not.?
.3 MR. FRdFHW AXD : Do you want h i. in to
4 r o v :i e w t. h pi e n t.i ro document, to e o if i t.'s m e n t i ovs rod
5 o 1:. 11 o r w i.}? e t; h n n w 1a e v e y o u p o i. n 1; e d o u t t o h i. m ?
6 MR. LACKY: Feel free.
7 MR. FRfJ FHWALD ; Okay.
a A . h e o n 1 y t h ;i n g t h a t n a :i d , " p r o d u c. e d .1 i v e r
9 i n j u ry It
:i o Q (Hy M r . 11 a coy ) )) o e s: n ' t is a y a n y t hi n g a h o u t
i. :i t u m o t: :3 , d o e :3 ). t- ?
:i 2. A . No , i t d o e, n n o 1. .
13 Q* b u 1; i. 1: t3 u r e d o e S3 :3 a y " n o n e a r c 1 n o g e n 1 r., "
1 1 d o e ss n ' t i t ?
L 5 A. . Yo s ,
1 6 Q . A n d Mo nc. a 'iit.o wouldn't have been free to 1 7 m .i k 1: h o :3 <) v e p r o ;3 e n t a 1; i o n u a b o u 1; the c o n c L u S3 i.on :3 o f
i a t h o r. e a 1. u d x e b in 1 97 9 in that fan hi. on had they not
1.9 g o t t e n 1'I' t o c h a n g e t h o c o n c 1. u a Lon i n h 1a e u 1: is d i. e ;-i ,
3 0 w o u .1 d t h e y ?
3 .1 A . No . It would have be. en -- we s; t i .1 .1 could
2 3 h .a vo b e e n .... i' o o v ' ;3 r e p o r t w o u 1. d ss 1:1 1.1. h a v o b o o n 1; h e
2 3 s: a in e ,
?.d .
G H vi 1 t. h pa I p T si t u d i e s s u r e w o u 1 drt ' t ?, a y t h a t,
2 5 won 1. d. i. 1: ?
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I. A , An d h h <i C a n e e r I n :5 I: i. 1: u t. e wo u 1. d s h i. I 1. be. I: h o
2 f; a in e .
3 Q, But. the: .11)f? t. n d .i e that Moiifianto ha d done;
4 wouldn't bo the sumo, would I. hoy?
-
5 M K . \' N U K B W A L D : J u t; l a in :i n u t e .
6 A - Mo t neeos s a r 1 ly .
7 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Let me a a k you t.o takea
Q look ah that 1.254 study and all the sentenceu 1 n the
9 ft u in in a r yb u t f o x` t. h e e o n c 1 vi s 1 o tia e n t. e n c: c; a n d. t. ell m e
t 0 w In o r (?. l n a n y o I: In o t: s o n t e n e o i. t say s t In a I: P Cn ' s a r o
3 :i a o n e a r c. i n o q e ti !\ o .
i ?. A . :i f t h er e s a tiy p .1 ace ex c ep t t.ha t .1 a a t
I. 3 a e n t e ti c o ?
3 4 () . Ye fi .
1.5 A . 11; d o e s n o t .
3 6 Q , And, a C), b u t f o r t h e e h a n g e x' e q u e s t e d b y
I 7 D r . L i. v i. n s c us a n d m a d o b y I B T ,n t 0 r , hi. v i n s e u s '
38
t e q u e ,ci t,t h e r e w o u .1 d b e 11 o t. h n ti g 3. n t. h e
;; u in in a r y o f
1.9 that, study which would say that PCB's wen;
2 0 n o n c a x- c 5 t; o g e n ,i c., w o u .1 d t. h o. r e ?
2 I A , T h i. s o n 1 y s a y s i. 1; o n t h i s o n e s t. u d y .
2 2 Le t ' k ti ee .
2 3 MU, FldJiKIWALl); By the way, while
2 4 ))X'. Uoiifih is looking, il 'in referring back t.o the;
2 5 exhibit you previously mentioned. .Having more time
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I. to look 'through it, 1: hero are l:.u uton-; men t i o nod on 7 other- pages than t. he. otic; you pr<ui on ted to h i in , Ho, 3 h i. s I'.onti. mom/ i. s limited to t he o n e page that you 4 f;ti owed hi m rati) or 1. h a n the r e a t of the :repo:i"t. 3 T h e r o ' s ... - 1; u m o r s a r e men I; i. o n e (i t It t; o u g h o u I; t h i. s 6 S C. t 5 O Ti . 7 MIL. 11A C K Y : Not 5 Ti the section that 0 t a I. k s a b o u t o a n e o v , t s i t ? 9 MH . )?RUP.MWAl.D : Tha t. ' & r 5 gh t, be ca u a e I. 0 t h a t ' s n <5 t t h o i. s s u e, . Y t ' i. n t h e t.u in o r s o it t. ion, J 3 d i f f e r e n t. fro m t. h e c a n c e r s e; c t. 5 o n , a d 5 a t. 5 n e t ,i o ti 1. 3. that we -- I think wit all. know, but that'a being .1 3 argued about, J 4 MR, I. ACHY: We 33, I t. h 5 ti 1< it's very 155 e 1 e. a. r ; a n d I. it t m o in a k e i t v e r y c 1. o a r . J f. 0. > (Hy Mr. Lacey) Again, but for I. 7 0 r . r. i. v i. n a e u s It a v i n g g o h I; o n T. B T t o e h a n g o t. h e J 0 r e ri u 1 t r; o f t. li o a i. udy , M o ti s a n t o w o u .1 d n o t. h a v e b o e n 1.9 able to c i. t o the 113 T stud I os as proof that POB's 2 G were nonenrei nogeni c when they went, to Congress in 7 1. response to an Investigation in 1.979 , would they? 2 2 MR. PRllPllWAld) : You mean without -2 3 y o u 1 v o a. 1. s o a 1. r e a d y i. d e n t i. f i. e d a. d o c u men t w h e r e 3. 4 J):r . Ca.landra said that's what, the studies meant, not. 7.55 carcinogenic. 55 o, even without that you're
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I i? a y i. n g w i. I:, h o ij I: I: h a t c h a n g o , h o o o u 1 d n ' t h a v o u o d 7 t h 5 ? p a p e r ? 3 0,. (My Mr. Lacey) Dr. Cal an dr a didn't wr.i l. o 4 t h (-5 a t u d i. 'aa , d i. d h ? T h o a I; u d i. e a w o r o d o n o b y o I; h r h poop]o? 6 A. Bo s`a 3 d that Win :i o o .1 u d e (i, both T)r . Rich ter 7 and Gordon who did do the studies. 8 () , So, they both reached that,conclusion, and 9 i t was just a mistake i. n the way the l a nguage was i n d r a f t. o d ; .i s t. h a t. c o r r c < 1. V i i. A . !'. I; wa s n ' 1; t h o t i. r s t dr a f. t of: it. :i 2 Q. And that, was a mistake on their part in the I. 3 w a y t h e 1 a. n g u a. g e w a s d r a k t o. d ? J 4 A. On the other's - - 1understand that the i. r> o t h e r 1; w o , t h e y s a i d t h e m s e l v e s w i t h o u 1: c o r r e c 1: i. o n :i 6 t. h a t it wasn't -... there was no h e pa t o c. e .1 .1 u .1 a r I. 7 e ,v r: c i. n o m a . 1 a Q . So, j t ' s - - y o vi vi n d e r a t. a n d .i t w a s I', tv e i r 1. 9 c h o i. e e o I: w o r d s t o s a. y " n o n e a r c i n o g e. n i. c " ? 2 0 A. They - 2 l Q. is that c on: cc t? 3 3 A . On the other- two? 3 3 Q. You. 3.4 A . Y tv s , 7,5 Q. No doubt, a bo vj. I: that ?
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I. A . Th .1t ' ,s my i. m p r o ;? u ion . 2 Q. And have you ever talked to anybodyabout 3 t hat? <1 A. 1 'vo talked to 1,3 v i n a e uabout that. 5 Q. D i. d you over talked -to Dr. h 1 v i. n :? c u n about, f> how thoso other r: 1.ud :3 eis came to a (l.i f f oront 7 conclusion bet: ore, he suggested a change, than the 8 .1 2 5 <5 ?51 u d y ? 9 .A, My i m pr e ft n i o n was -- :i s that they had a 1. . 0 t h e y h a d. s a i. d t h a. t 1 2 4 2 a n d. I 2 b 0 we r to n o t, :i i c a r e. 1 n o g e n 1 c. a n d h a d n ' 1. c h a n g e dt h i u o n e h e r e a n d 1. 2 had made a. change on the other two. J 3 Q - W e ,1 .1 , .i a 1 t y c> u r u n d c: r n t a r> d 3. n g t ti a t 1 H T 14 Initially :? a. i. d , on 1.242 and 1.260, no ncarc i. notjeni. c - 1 !;> A , V e , ] 6 Q. -- or that that wan the conclusion after I. 7 D r , T. i. v i. n c n a h a d a ug g e :? t e d a. c. h a n g e ? :i B A . My 3 m ])r e a h 3 o n w a s t hoc C-! 1. w o w e r e c h a ti g o d. 1.9 r e h e t a. 1. k to d t. o k h e m . 2 0 Q Without any input f t o m Dr , 1.3 v 3 n is e, u n ? 2 I. A . Y o u . 2 2 Q H a. v e y o u t a .1 k e d t o Dr . hi v 3 n s c. u a a lu o u t 23 y 2A A . Not .in those words 2 5 Q - lie h me Let you talc e a. n to k h e v 1. o <7 k a. t t h i.;;
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1 2. 1 cl O Oi <5 not. appiiar to bo carcinogenic .
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j 4 Q. * A n d h c* 's; t. a .1 k 5. n g a b o \i t. 1 2 4 2 a n d 1 2 6 0? 1. .9 A . Y e s , :> i. r ,
:i 6 Q. And then ho say si, "The .1 at 4. car phase1' --
1. 7 " p r a i t? o i. 1-: p r o lor a b 1. e , " 1. a 1. k i n g a b o u t
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.
23 A . Ye .
2A Q . Correel? 2 8 A . RXfU'.t l.y right.
.
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I Q - N o w, tie 1; h o n has a. table of the reports and 2 t h e c ti a n g o a , e o r :r o o 1 ? 3 A . Yen . 4 0 W h o n T It T did a report, they did a draft and r> m a i. 1 ted. 1 t t o M o n a. n l: o f: o r M <5 n s a. n t o ' u r e v i. e w , d i. d 6 t b e y n o t r> 7 A . T he y a 1 w a. y t: d o . B Q . Y e s: , And a f; t o r 1. h e. f ,i rst. rev i e w b y 9 M o n s a n t o , the first, supplemental report came out. 1 0 c. a r t e. c: I. ? J 1 A . Id o n ' t k n o w t h a 1 . I. 2 Q . W o 1. 1. , 1 I: F. R 4.' f o 1 1. o w n d 1 I; s <'. u t o m a r y e on r s e , 1 3 t h .i n i t A a 1 d r a f t. r e p o :r t. w o u .1 d h a v e b e p n s: o n t - - for I. 4 o.1 c h o l: t,ho:u! h t.nd. i. es -- would h a. v e b e e n s e n t t. o 1 B M o n a a n t o f o :r ;1 t s; :r o v j o w , won .1 d .i t T> o t. ? ! b ,4 :i 7 Q , A n d i. h o n t. h p ;; \t p p A e in e i11. a .1 r ep o :r 1., t h o f 1 r si t 1 8 :? u p p l o m o n l;,, w o u 1. d e o m e oti I; i, n e o r p o r a. I, 1 n g I: h e o h a n g e si 1 9 si u 9 g e s; t c-; d by Moiifinnio, would At not? 2 0 A. Tb o iuipple montary report; i. ;>the one that; 2 1 was: in addition to tho original report that, was; 2 3. given !; o un , The': supplonto n 'UI report wan that tho ho 2 3 a d d i 11 o n a .1 n 1 A d o r, t. h a t 1 b a d r o q u o s; t e d o f t b o m t o 2 4 tell me whether they were saying ours wan 2 b carcinogenic: or not.. Bo, tho a upp 1 e in e n t. a 1 report .is;
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s e p a. r a t; I! r o m I: h o o t lie r r o p o r I: a n d w o u 1 d b o d e a l t w.i 1 h s o pa rn t o .'I y . 3 0. W h a I. -- w li a 1. w a a a a id a b o vi t. c. a n c*. o :r - c. a u a i n cj 4 p r o s poo I:. s i. n !: h o i. n i. I; i a I r e p o r I; s ? h A. :r don ' 1 ro c. a .1.1 . I didn't read them. 6 Q. Well, doesn't the chart show us? 7 Mh' . KRUKHWALD: No. 8 A. Well, that's -- this is -- this is the 9 siipp.1 ament reports. And it -- t his .i 5; 1. 0 Q (Hy M r . f a c 0 y ) " C 0 n 0 1 u s i.on " -- 11 MR. HRUKHWALD: The original 1. 2 Q (H.Y Mr. hare y ) - ~ " h e p a 10 10 m a s . " } 3 " Con c .1 vi s i on : 1-3 e p a i. 0 in a s , " " C 0 n c 1 vi a i 0 n : l 4 (lop .1 1; 0 m a s it :l b A . y e s . T - - 16 Q , T h e n j 11 -- 1 7 A . 1 c. a n't 11; j j ,'i i - - j f 11) 1 s i r. t h e 1. 8 0 v 1 <j 1 n a. 1. .... 1 1: h 1 n k t h i s i s !: h e 0 r i, g l n a l r e p 0 r L . ) 9 Q . A n d then there's a a vi p p 1 e m e n t . 2 0 A . And I t Iv i. n k t h 0 r 0 ' s 1: Iv 0 f: i, r s t s u p p l e m e n 1:., 2 .1 t hat 's r 1 g h t. . 2 2 Q A a d the first supp] e m e n t 0 n a a c h 0 f t h 0 s c2 3 r e p 0 r t s s a i. d " t u mo v i 9 e n i. c. , " d 1 d n ' 1; i, t ? 2 4 A . " 3 1 i g h t .1 y t vnn 0 r i g e n i c , " y e s . 2 b Q - A n d 1 h wa. s only on t Iv 0 s 0 e 0 n d s u p p l e m 0 n 1;
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I. It h a h i. t w a. s c h a n ga d t o " n o n c a r o, i. n o g <t n i. c , " c o r r o c It?
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5
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and it wa.on a 1.1 thren report;?
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2 4 w a r: r o s p o rt s :i b 1 o for the rat studio fi a t J HT ?
2 3 A . No f i was not.
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I. Q, T n e . Wha. t; did you undoru hiincl Paul Wright, 2 had done at. lli'J'? 3 A, 1 realty -- '.( hadn't, known that, he was 4 hhoro.- W h y won. Id T. even I; hi. n k ho ask him 11" he h a. <1 b been at. :f H T ? 6 0 . :i n e e., Y o ud .1 d n ' t. r e v t ew a n y t h ;i n y a b o u t 7 t la o (j u .a 1 L I: 1 e a. t i. o n n , t; la o o r e d e n I; 1. a Is, a. n d t h e 0 experi once of t he people that worked for you when 9 y o u h e e a. m a t la e m o d I o a. I d L r o o I; o r ? 1 0 A . lie a .'1 r c; a d y w an a p a r t o f o u r e hi p toy. W e I. t don' I: go bank and look ah the credentials o I: those J 2. t. h a t a r e w o r k ;i n g f o r y c> n . 1.3 Q, In buying ho find oul: about; the people hhah 1 4 w o r )< e d f o r y o u , y o u d. .1 d n ' t c h e c k .1 n t. o w h a l. t heir I 9 o x p e r i. o n c e w a. a, w h a 1; h h e i. r o r i. h o r i. a w a a , w h a 1; t h e i. r ! 6 c r e d e ti t. i a .1 n w e r e ? t 7 A . No, :? i. r . 1 H Q . y o u j u ;i 1. m a d o h i hi h e ad of M o n n a n 1. o ' s t o x i c. 19 h e :j h i. n g 1 a b o r a 1; o r y w i. h h o u h e v e r c h e c k 1 n g o u b t. f h e 2 0 h a d a n y expertencc even doing that; in t. h a h y o u r 3 1. h o a t 1 m o n y 7 2 2 A . '1 knew ho h a d ti ' t d o n o a n y t; h ;i n g 1 1 k o 1. ti a t. . 2 3 Q - f. o, e . 2.4 A . VJ r e v i e w <r> d a number of poop If1. f or tha t 2.3 j o b , i. n x d d 1 1; i o n h o Po. u 1 , A n d o f: 1; h on o w o
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L r v i.ow o d , h o w a. .s 1: h o b o a t o 1: 1; h o a o 1; h a 1; w e r e 2 e ti t. e d 3. o u a 3 Q A n d w a fs n ' t. tit a t. b e e a u n e o f 3i 3 a e x p e :r i e n c. e 4 i. n g h h o t; a h !. a b o r a t o ry at HIT? b A . N O , ! ;i T , 6 0. * W e 3 3 , w ti at w a si ;i t .in 3i.it! experle n c. e t. 3i a t. 7 h i m s o w e 1. 1. - q u a 1. 3. f: i. e d t o h e a d u p 1; h o M o n s a n 1; o R t o x :i co l og i r. a .3 .1 a b o r a t ory , t h e. n , 5 f i t wa a n ' t t. h o 9 o x peri. o n c e li e g o I; a I: I! R? 1 0 A . Ho w a s: a v o x y s o u n cl b j o .3 o g :i s t . I. I. Q . W l\ o. n d i!. d 0 r . W r 1 g h t a a a u m e t he dut. i. es o f: :l 2 s; t a t t 1 a q u p a ti d r u a n 3 n g M o n s a n t. o ' a t. o x :i r. o .1 o g S c a 3 13 I. a b o r a I; ory? :i 4 3. I 3. h.ink .it filarted about 3979, and he wa.e; 1 s t h o 3! i r h h (.3. i. r e r. t o r . :i 6 Q. Tin d tip 3.o and th.rougt) that, time you h a d no 1.7 L d e a a. b o u. I; Is i. si e x p r i. o n o n r u n n 1 n g I. a b o r a I: o r i ea ; i. s ] B ttsat correct? 3 3 A . That. ' si r 3 g 3i t. . T h e r e w e r e .3 o t. s: of poop.3 e 1 n 2 0 M o n a n t o who -- who vot e d f o r h i. m b o u i. d e m e . 2 3 0.. You wore 3i e a cl o f t h e in e d 1 o a .1 d e. pa r 1.in o ti t 2 2 r o s pn n a i. b 1 e f o r si n 1: t i. n q t, h a I: UP, w o r e y o u n o 1: ? 2 3 A . y e si , si :i r 2<\ Q Have you e v a r pe r ti o ti a .3 .1 y don (\ a n y s 3.u d 1 csi 2 5 o n P (3 R ' k ?
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A , No , i. r . 2 Q . At Mo Tim an to have your dot. i oh boon pri mar.il y .3 a d m i. n i. h t r a b i. v o s i. n e e b o o o m i. n g m o d i. e a 1. d i. r it c, 1; o v , a s . d 0 pp o s o d t o p 5- a c. 11 c. .i n g .in any f A e .1 d a t h a i. y o u 1 r e. 5 t.rui. nod in? 6 A . H o t. h . A .1 in o ;t t e q u a. .1 , 7 Q, Wh aI; typo oil duties have you curried out at B Mon s a n t o p r a c. t. A e A n q o c c. u p a t. A o n a .1 in e d A c A no? 9 A . T p u t t o (j I; h o r o u r e p A. d e m i o I o q i. c e c b i. o n 1 0 a d in A n A r> t. r a 1. i v o 1 y . :i p o n s o r e d t h e d o A n q o f
e p i. d o m i. o 1 o g i. o s t u d i. e s o n a n u m b o r o i: o u r p r o d u c t s . 1 2 1 snptirvi nod and started the: -- a NAtro study on the 13 h o a. 1 I; It e f! f e e t s o 1; t hose p e o p l o a x p o:? e d I: o d I o x A. n s
and had contracted to have Dr. Bus bind from the (Jn Ivors? tty of Cincinnati, come down a. nd do an J fi A n - d e p t h s t. u d y o f t h a 1. p o p u .1 a t A o n , .1.7 f 1 n v n n t i. q a I: o d I; It o p r o b !. e m o f 1 B h y p e r <; e n s A t A v e p n e u m o ti A t. A s d o wn a t o \i r .P ens a e o A a I 9 p 1 a n b. a n d w a n a b I a b o i, d. e n t, i P y b h e c a. u u o o r - - o P 3 0 t h e ti y j> e r s e n si A t A v e p e n n m o n A t. A r; when the rest of the 3. I w o r I. d w a. s u n .r b I o t o f i. n d b h o c a u s e i: o r i. t . )' h n v o O ') j Tt ff t. A t u t o d a study by Northwester n on our work corn at. 2 3 r< r u hi mr l o It o x p o u e d b. o e h .1. o r o p It e n o I.a. n d t It o q tut :? t 1 o n 2A w h e t. he r t h e a e a r e d A o x A n r e .'I a t. e: d . 2 5 . 'I? It o o a r o m a j o r h It l n q a , b u b I: h e r <t ' a
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I. 1. o I; o t d a i. 1. y i. 13 t-> u o ;5 retailed 1: o health o 1: w o r k e r :? i 2 w h 1 c: h :i in :t n v o .1 v e d 3 Q . I g vi e Si R - a n d 1 w a n t. i . o 1. r y t. o s; o p a r a i. e.
4 i. I: - - n d y o u R ,1 Y w h o n y o u 11 i. n r h i i. u t; e 'i, " i.-n Lb ore 3 c. a a e f> i t. fi o n n d << 1 i )< e t h a t ' h a n a d m ;i n i a t. r a t...i v e
6 I: u ii c t i. o n o i: o. 1. e c 1: i. n g t. o h a v e a i51 u d y ?
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8 w 1 I: h 1: h o m . i: do o i. d e w h a t, n e o d r 1: o b e d o n e a n d --
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I. 0 t h a l; ' r go i. n g i. o b o ii o n e .
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1 3 f i ti d , a n d .i d o ti t.i f y 1. h o p r o b 1 e m ?
1. 4 A . Y e ;5 . An d F. ' v e (i o n e I: !i e r a m e 0 h i. n g o n
:t fi POH ' n, and !I 'vo done i.ho same thing on- - on tho
I 6 d i o x i n is . And at: Mi. t. ro i. I: w,i a. big i. r r ti e ,
1 7 Q . 0)< a y , 8 o , l. b o p 1 a o v i; y on ' v o a o. t. u a i 1 y q on a
i. n o t. i. n t ho ['laid - and i know i I: ' r not: the right:
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I. y ou'vo do ne ? 2 A , W o. ' r e .1 o o k i /) q (i t t. h e h e a .1 t. h e f f e e 1 o f .3 h h o u o poopl. n oxjiosori I'.o ('.hloroplifin o !. u with t.ho <1 k .i ik'I of prob.lein wit. h the f morn:: a a the; dioxin 5 content -- or thorn i. s a dioxin that's proditc.nd 1 n f> t h o p r o d u c t. i o n o f c h .1 o :r o p h o n o 1 s . 7 Q. f,ot mo try to u nders hand that, Monsanto is 8 m a k .i n g c h 1 o r o p hi o n o .1 a t IC r ii m m r i o h ? 9 A . Th o y w o r o ] 0 Q Wore 7 i. 1. A . (W i. 1; n o s s nods head) .1 3 Wh (in d 1 d t h a +. s t o p ? 1.3 A - I n t 1m 1. a st yc,ii: or two. ) 'I Q - A n d t h e r c: has been comiern boc.au so in the 1. 9 p r o e e s s o f ma k i. n <j 1: h o s e c h 1. o r o p h e n o .1 s k h o r o w o r e. 1 6 a i f! o d i 0 X :i n fi b e 1 ri q in a ri u f a c: t u r e d ? 1 7 A . T h o r o - - i. h ' s a b y p r o d. u o 1: j u s 1; a s 1: u r a. n s J 8 a 3- o b y p T' o d u c t. S , P (> si n i b 1 y ,, j Ti t h e p r o d u a t i o n o f 19 1? C H ' s . 3 0 Q. - W e .1 1 , d i d y o u f i n d t. h a t. d i o x i n s w e r' e 3 1. by p rodu c 1: s i n 1; li o m ,inu n a. c t u r o <3 li c h .1. o r o p h o n o 1. s ? 2 3 A . V e r> / b u 1. they're -- they were not of the 2 3 2 3 7 8 hli a 1; a r e 1. h o m o ;> t 1: o x i. r. . 2(1 A n d w e d i d h a v e p e o p .1 e t h fi t h a v e 2 3 e h 1. o r a r, n e , well - i. d o n h i (: i. e d o h 1 o r a o n o, a. n d I: h e
MELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, IMC.
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NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
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r o u I. a r by p c o d u c t i. n t h e p r: o d u r,t i. o n o f:
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A , No, s :i i" ,
Q W o u .1 d t. hi a t hi e a in a t. ter o f i n 1. e r o s l. t o t hi e m o d i. c a. 1. department?
A . Yes, bn i. i 1 in ti o t fs ur o T w o u .1 d d o a b o u t A t
a f for wo 7 re on t o f i. hr* bus i. n e s s .
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1. Q. Wo 1 1, o o r !: a. i. n 1. Y , 1. r y i. n g 1, o a a a e o s wha f 2 t h (: t. o x 1 c o 1 o g y of ):' c 8 ' f! a r o, i t. would in a k e a 3 d i f 1: e c o n c, a i. f Y u k n e w t h a t 1; h o u e P H ' s h a d i. n 4 thorn f itrirot: produced nr; a byproduct, would .it 8 not? 6 A . 1 t )1 g h t. . T h a t. ' j; t: o in e t h .i t> g y o u 7 shouldn't - - it would ..... you should -- it would bo 8 nice to know. Hut we'd do .it after we got. it, it 9 w o u !. d b o s o in e t h i ng e 1. s e . .1 0 Q . y o u r o. c. o g n i x e , do y ou not, t h a t. f \\ r a n n ma y 1. I. b o v o n m o r o 1: o x i c t h a n P C B ' u ? 1 3 A . yea . 13 Q . And, n o , i.be j)j" ef.* en c. o. of f u:ran s .i n PCH ' a 1. 4 p cod u cod by Mono an ho w o u 1. d b e 1 i. k o 1 y t: (5 ino r o a s e t It o J b t. o X i c e f f e c t o f e x p o n u r e t. o 1. h o tt e P 0 H ' a ? I 8 A . X 1: 1: h o y w o r o p c e a o n 1. i n s u l: 1: 1 e i. o n k 1 7 g u a Ti 1. i ty . 1 8 0 . 0 k a y . VI li a t :i fi a h u f f 1 c: i o nt quari t i t. y , i n 1.9 y o u r o p i. n i. o n ? 2 0 A . 1 don't k n o w ?. 1. Q . You'v o n e v o r ;? t u d y -- 2 2 A . T h a V T) ' t fi 1 u d i e. d i t. , 2 3 Q ) u n o . 8 a y o you had some body oil your; s t a l; l: 2 4 u t ii d y t hat? 2 3 A . No, i. r
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Q, Do you ha vo any i n h o r in a t i. o n o n that? 3 A . Mo, n .5 r . 3 {) Ko, t r y 3 n g 4. o <m e .s' ;i a t. w h a t 1 o vel f u r a n 4 c. o n I: a m i. n a I: i o n i. n P C H ' ;? w o u I, d l) e u i q n i. i i. o a. n h , yo u 5 don ' t h a v e an y i n f o r m a t. ,i o n o n t h a t ? f> A. . T h a. I: ' u r i. g h t . 7 Q. And if? that, why you any you don't know what B you would do with it i. i you Round out I: horn worn 9 f u r a n n :i n t h c, P C B 1 a ? 1 0 A, .1 don't know what would -- should bo done 1. 1 i. I: w o k n o w i 1; . i I', * :s a -- .1 3 Q. Would you <i 1 v o some thought to a program 1.3 you mi glit now undertake it you discovered t.hat to be .1 4 t. ho f a e 4., o v e r i t h o u g 4i y o u n o 1 o n g e r m a o u f a o 4. u r e.
F? C B ' :? ? :i f> A . T h a 4. w o u 1 d t a k e a g :r e a t d e a 1 o f 1 7 th o u g h t . :! a Q . B u I: y o u ' v o n e v o r t a k o n 4. h o 4.1 in o 4 o g :i v c; .i l 9 1: h a 1; t h o u g h t, o o r ,r e c t ? ?. n A . I h a von' t d o n e 14i a 4. . 3 i. Q. And the r e u o n y o u ho vim ' 1; i n boc.HUSfi y o u 3 3 h a v e n o i of or m a 4.1 o n 4,o suggest 4.bat M o n is a ti 4. o ' r; P C B
ha.d i: u r ..I n i a thorn,, cor roc 4. V 3 4 A . 1 do n ' 4. k now 4. h a t . 3 5 Q, You just don' I; know one way or the
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2 A . That's right,
3 Q. Did you o v or i. n q u. i. r e about that of 4 a nybody?
3 A. , No .
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B M on f. a n to ' s PCD's hud furans in thorn?
9 A , M o , ii i. r ,
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20 A . 1 n Sturgeon , Mi s s our1 .
2 1. Q - r. t h a t 1: h o o a. w e A h a. 1:'s b o <3 n o n A r 1 a 1 now 2 3 for two, throe years?
7.3 A . T h r e o p 1. u s y o a r n .
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1. A . R y k r i. a 1. . 2 0. . And what. w a a t h ('. t! u b 1. a n o e o f y o u r 3 t; o a 1: i. m o n y a b o u k ? 4 A . 'J'b a e n 1. i r ci n n b j o c. 1. of d .1 o x i ti n a n d .i 1. s r> b .1 o 1. o (;/1 c a 1: 1: e o t a , c. Q A .1 .1 :r 1 c;; h I. . What other 1. i m ohave you 7 t; e a 1:11; 1 e d b y 1: r i .a 1 ? a A . :t 'vo 1. e s t .i f 5 e d t w .i c e .... . t b e r e a r o t w o 9 t v i. a. 1 a 1; h A. k h a. v o t; . i k o n pin. c o o n S k u r g e o n . .1 0 Q 0 )< a y . i, i. A . I! k o.;; k i f: i. od in bo kb of: I: hem. :i a A n d 1 h a v e g :! v e n d epou; :i 1. .5 on on a 13 bon a e no. e a. so. :i ^ W h ("i t c a e w a. ft t. h a t ? Lb A. , Th.Jk'H kh e b e n a o n o e a n o k li a t 1:. o o k p 1 a e e :i f. h e r e :i n Texas , to. 1 a t e d t o on r C. h o e o .1 a t o Ha y o u p .1 a n t . 1 7 Q The 3 keen c .1 e ? :i a A . Yen , 1 9 Q A n d w h a l . wan the substance of your 2 0 1; t3 a h i. tn o n y 1 n k h1; o a. s e ? 2 1 A . Th e o f f o o. t of henxene on wan. 2 2 O . Wore; you o f: k h e o p i n i. o n 1; fi a t bene e n e con 1. d. 2 3 e a u o c: a n r. 0! r ? 2 ,A !' k o .1 u n e : ! >.: ii k iim i.i , 2 ["> Q And wan that what your test.i mony was a b o u t ?
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1 B A . No .
1 9 a. Have you been naked by Monsanto to offer
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2 2 A . No,, si. r.
.
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I. A . You , U i. v , 2 Q . It .c; 1. h o r c: a n y 1. hi i n g a b o a t. y o u r t. e s t5 w o n y t. hat .3 you ' v o g i. v (5n t. o d -,i y L h a. I:. ' s i n c o r r e o I; o r 1 n o o in p I. o. I; e 4 1. h a 1. you nood to add to or change at. th.if; point? B A . C don't, t h i. n k ;? o , 6 M In' , b A C K y ; P a a n t. h o w 1. t r os . 7 M U .F R f] i<! [1W A r, 0 i I h a. v o n o q u o t ions . 0 T H ]: V :( D F 0 G H A P H K P : Thi .i s c o ti c 1 u cl o y t. b e 9 <1 (1 p o s i t L o n . T h o I: i. m o i. s A : 0 6 p . m . 1 0 ***** ! 1.
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