Document G6rQobvbmnLkxoeqdxE3jRb6v

Multi-PageTM IN THE CIRCUIT COURT EIGHTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT DUPAGE COUNTY, ILLINOIS 1 EMPLOYERS INSURANCE OF WAUSAU, A MUTUAL COMPANY, a mutual insurance corporation, Plaintiff, vs. MCGRAW-EDISON COMPANY, a Delaware corporation, et al., Defendants. ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) No.91-MR-0256 Discovery Deposition of WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, P.E. Taken on behalf of the Plaintiff on August 1, 1997. INDEX Questions By: Mr. Ripperger: Mr. Hensler: Mr. Chambers: Page: 3, 144 103, 149 -- Reporter: Tricia Emde Huff, CSR #084-003532 Keefe Reporting Company 11 North 44th Street II ! KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY WATER PCB-SD0000070457 . 1 IK THE CIRCUIT COURT EIGHTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT 2 Dupage county, Illinois 3 4 EMPLOYERS INSURANCE OF WAUSAU, A MUTUAL COMPANY, a mutual 5 insurance corporation, 6 Plaintiff, 7 vs. No. 91-MR-0256 8 MCGRAW-EDISON COMPANY, a Delaware corporation, et al.. Defendants. 10 11 12 13 14 APPEARANCES: 15 For Plaintiff: 16 Zelle & Larson By Brian Ripperger, Esq. 17 For Defendants: ^ Jones, Day, Reavis & Pogue By Louis w. Hensler, III, Esq. Smith, Helms, Mulliss Moore 19 By Roily L. Chambers, Esq. 20 21 22 23 24 Multi-PageTM Page 2 Page 5 1 poultry and cattle, there was a case involving the 2 presence of PCB's at mink ranches. 3 Q. The dioxin cases that you referred to, one of 4 them didn't happen to be Times Beach, did it? 5 A. Not Times Beach per se, no. 6 Q. Okay. Related at all to the Times Beach 7 litigation? 8 A. Related to at least one of the companies that 9 was alleged to be the source of the material that ended 10 up in Times Beach. 11 Q. Is that nepacl, Northeastern Pharmaceutical 12 Chemical Company? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. How was Monsanto -- well, I shouldn't ask it 15 that way. Let me ask you first, were you testifying on 16 behalf of Monsanto in that matter? 17 A. No, sir. 18 Q. In what capacity did you give testimony in 19 that matter? 20 A. As an expert. 21 (Pagageorge Exhibit Number 1 22 marked for identification.) 23 Q. We've marked here as Papageorge Exhibit 1 a 24 Curriculum Vitae. Sir, is this your Curriculum Vitae? 1 IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED by and between counsel 2 for Plaintiff and counsel for Defendants that the 3 deposition of WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, P.E. may be taken 4 for discovery purposes pursuant to and in accordance 5 with the Illinois Code of Civil Procedure pertaining to 6 such depositions by and on behalf of the Plaintiff on 7 August 1, 1997 at the of St. Louis Harriot Hotel, St. 8 Louis, Missouri, before Tricia Emde Huff, a Certified 9 Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public, that the issuance 10 of notice is waived and that this deposition may be 11 taken with the same force and effect as if all 12 statutory requirements had been complied with. 13 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED that the 14 signature of the deponent is not waived. 15 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, P.E., produced, sworn 16 and examined as a witness on behalf of the Plaintiff, 17 testified and deposed as follows: 18 CROSS-EXAMINATION 19 BY MR. RIPPERGER: 20 Q. Morning, Mr. Papageorge. 21 A. Good morning. 22 Q. We just met, my name is Brian Ripperger and I 23 represent one of the insurance companies in this 24 matter, that entity being Employers Insurance of Wausau Page 3 Page 6 1 A. It is. 2 Q. I note here that from '51 to '64, according 3 to your cv, you worked at a J.F. Queeny Plant. Can you 4 tell me what the nature of the business of J.F. Queeny 5 was. 6 A. J.F. Queeny Plant was one of Monsanto's 7 chemical producing plants. 8 Q. Where was that located? 9 A. In St. Louis. 10 Q. And then in '64 you went to the Krummrich 11 Plant? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And where is that located? 14 A. That's in Sauget, S-a-u-g-e-t, Illinois 15 across the river -- Mississippi River from St. Louis. 16 Q. Is that near East St. Louis? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And then I see you were plant manager at the 19 Anniston Plant. Where was that located? 20 A. Anniston,Alabama. 21 Q. And then you became Manager of Environmental 22 Control, Organic Division, in St. Louis in 1970, is 23 that what this indicates? 24 A. Yes. Page 4 Page 7 1 which is one of the parties that is involved in a 1 Q. What did you do as Manager of Environmental 2 lawsuit between several insurance companies and 2 Control in the Organic Division in St. Louis as of the 3 McGraw-Edison Company regarding several environmentally 3 1970 time frame? 4 contaminated sites around the country. 4 A. I was appointed to overview, oversee, 5 Sir, have you ever had your deposition taken 5 influence Monsanto's activities as it related to PCB's 6 before? 6 that were being found in the environment. 7 A. Yes. 7 Q. How was it that it came about that you 8 Q. I presumed as such. How many times have you 8 obtained that position? 9 had your deposition taken? 9 A. Well, I can only share with you my 10 A. I can only estimate it since I didn't keep 10 impressions, you'll have to ask the people that 11 records. Since 1971 as best I can recall I've had 11 selected me. 12 almost approaching 30, 36, three dozen of them. 12 Q. Well, what's your understanding as to why you 13 Q. Are those mostly regarding PCB's? 13 were selected for that position? 14 A. Mostly, yes, sir. 14 A. I think the principal reason was one of the 15 Q. The issues regarding the environmental 15 fact that I had experience in the manufacture of PCB's 16 contamination of PCB's? 16 in the Anniston, Alabama plant and with that experience 17 A. Some of them. 17 in manufacturing I had some contact with some of the 18 Q. What others were there, if you recall? 18 customers, I had an idea of the uses to which the PCB's 19 A. What other cases? 19 were applied so I had that kind of background and I 20 Q. What other types of cases, yeah. 20 suspect that that had something to do with my 21 A. Oh, there were PCB cases relating toalleged 21 selection. 22 human health problems, I was involved with two cases 22 Q. Just for the record, when we say PCB's we're 23 relating to dioxins present in the environment, there 23 referring to polychlorinated biphenyls, right? 24 were some cases relating to the presence of pcb in 24 A. That's biphenyls, p-h-e-n-y-1. KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY Page 2 - Page 7 WATER PCB-SD0000070458 Multi-PageTM Page 8 Page 11 1 Q. Right. 1 you analyze for them, where might they be found, who 2 A. I wanted to avoid the o-l. 2 should know about it, this kind of background, and in 3 Q. I understand perfectly. Thank you. Then 3 addition to the environment the product acceptability 4 according to your Curriculum Vitae you became Manager 4 function included my knowledge and recommendations 5 of Product Acceptability of the Monsanto Industrial 5 regarding the safe shipping of those materials, what 6 Chemical Company in the '73 time frame, does that sound 6 happens during an accident and so on, is there enough 7 about right? 7 information given to the receiver of that material 8 A. Yes, sir. 8 regarding his employees' exposures, should he use 9 Q. Did you continue tohave any role with 9 respirators, should he use gloves and the like so it 10 respect to the PCB issues when you obtained that job in 10 had to do with the product acceptability in every 11 the '73 time frame? 11 sense, is it the right quality, is it safe, can it be 12 A. I did. 12 handled safely, is it snipped properly, does it effect 13 Q. How did your job responsibilities change from 13 the environment. In other words, is it acceptable to 14 being manager of environmental control to manager of 14 society. 15 product acceptability? 15 Q. And that would have included safe handling 16 A. I - in addition to being involved with the 16 issues with respect to employees or anybody that would 17 PCB products I was given additional products to 17 have been working with any of those chemicals? 18 momtor, to be involved with, and all of those products 18 A. Yes. 19 were produced by the entity referred to as Monsanto 19 Q. You then became Manager of Product 20 Industrial Chemicals. 20 Acceptability in the '77 time frame, according to your 21 Q. What products were those? 21 cv, at Monsanto Chemical Intermediates Company, St. 22 A. I can't remember all of them. 22 Louis, does that sound about right? 23 Q. Do you remember any of them? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 A. Oh, yes. Chlorinated benzenes, rubber 24 Q. When you were manager of product Page 9 Page 12 1 additives of all kind, materials that are referred to 1 acceptability of Monsanto Industrial Chemicals Company, 2 as plasticizers, these are materials that are added to 2 where was that company located, or that entity, the 3 plastics to make them flexible instead of being 3 Monsanto Industrial Chemicals Company? 4 brittle, wood treating chemicals like pentachlorophenol 4 A. The headquarters was St. Louis. The 5 and the like, sulfuric acid, chlorine, hydrochloric 5 producing plants were quartered throughout the world, 6 acid, sulfur dioxide, phthalic anhydride, 6 the marketing people throughout the world and so on. 7 a-n-h-y-d-r-i-d-e, maleic, m-a-l-e-i-c, anhydride. I'm 7 Q. Sure. Okay. How did that company differ 8 sure I've missed some, there were many. 8 from the Monsanto Chemical Intermediates Company? 9 Q. That's fine. When you were manager of 9 A. The difference in designation there reflects 10 environmental control in the organic division in St. 10 a company reorganization so I don't know what the 11 Louis, what were your job responsibilities as it 11 reorganizers had in mind when they chose those names 12 related to the pcb issue? 12 but the chemicals in most of the chemicals that were 13 A. I was selected to stay well informed about 13 part of the industrial chemicals became the chemicals 14 any activity relating to pcb's and their relationship 14 intermediates group. 15 to environmental presence and with that information I 15 Q. Then you became Director of Environmental 16 was expected to share not only within Monsanto, just 16 Operations for Monsanto Chemical Intermediates in the 17 sort of let the left hand know what the right is domg, 17 '77 to '82 time frame, does that sound about right? 18 the different functions within Monsanto but also with 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 customers, with governmental agencies, universities, 19 Q. Okay. How did your job responsibilities 20 groups of citizens interested such as the Isaac Walton 20 change from being manager of product acceptability to 21 League and the Great Lakes Club, I forget the exact 21 director of environmental operations? 22 name. There was a -- an organization along the Great 22 A. Well, in that director role I was given a 23 Lakes interested in environmental affairs and this was 23 staff of environmental engineers, technicians that - 24 intended to cover worldwide other producers of PCB's as 24 as well as product acceptability personnel so I was Page 10 Page 13 1 well as Monsanto. 1 responsible for the chemicals, their safe handling, 2 Q. When you became involved with these other 2 their quality, the proper shipping modes, barrels 3 various chemicals that you described for me that were 3 versus tank cars and so on as well as the environmental 4 produced by the Monsanto Industrial Chemicals Company, 4 issues at the producing plant assigned to that part of 5 were you also involved with those chemicals with their 5 Monsanto in terms of how they were managing their 6 relationship with the environmental presence like 6 environmental issues. 7 PCB'S? 7 Q. Would that have been at the various Monsanto 8 A. Only those that were discovered in the 8 producing plants around the country? 9 environment and appeared to be causing some effect. 9 A. Assigned to that part of Monsanto, chemical 10 Q. Were any of those chemicals that you 10 intermediates group. 11 described for me in the '73 to '77 time frame when you 11 Q. You would have been responsible for working 12 were manager of product acceptability, to your 12 with the various plants with respect to any 13 recollection were any of those discovered m the 13 environmental issues that they might encounter? 14 environment with the environmental presence like PCB's? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 A. No. 15 Q. And then according to your Curriculum Vitae 16 Q. What I'm wondering is what responsibilities 16 you became Director of Environmental Operations for 17 you had with these other chemicals that were produced 17 Monsanto Industrial Chemicals Company from the '83 18 by the Monsanto Industrial Chemicals Company if there 18 to '85 time frame, does that sound about right? 19 was no issue about them being in the environment? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 A. Well, at that time it was first of all 20 Q. What was the difference between the Monsanto 21 established whether any samples showed presence in the 21 Chemical Intermediates Company and the Monsanto 22 environment; if not established, what information is 22 Industrial Chemicals Company? Again, was it just some 23 needed to assure that they don't get in the 23 type of reorganization? 24 environment. In other words, do they degrade, how do 24 A. It was a reorganization, yes, sir. KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY Page 8 - Page 13 WATER PCB-SD0000070459 Multi-PageTM Page 14 Page 17 1 Q. So basically just a change in the name? 1 A. It had to do with this dioxin that I 2 A. And some change in the chemicals assigned to 2 mentioned earlier. 3 that piece of Monsanto. 3 Q. Okay. 4 Q. Sure. Did your job responsibilities as 4 A. And whether the plant manager should have 5 director of environmental operations pretty much remain 5 known certain things and should have been told certain 6 the same from the '83 to '85 time frame as it had been 6 things. 7 from the '77 to '82 time frame? 7 Q. Okay. What was the other time to your 8 A. Yes, sir. 8 recollection that you testified as an expert? 9 Q. When you became, then, Manager of 9 A. The other one had to do with PCB's being 10 Occupational Health at Monsanto Chemical Company, St. 10 found in an area that consisted of several 11 Louis in the '86 time frame, how did your job 11 manufacturing sites with many owners and operators of 12 responsibilities change, if any? 12 these sites through the years and I was asked to 13 A. That reflects another Monsanto 13 comment on my opinion regarding the possible source of 14 reorganization. 14 the pcb's in that stream water landfill system in that 15 Q. That being the Monsanto Chemical Company as 15 area. 16 opposed to the Industrial Chemicals Company? 16 Q. What area was that, do you recall? 17 A. Well, the Monsanto Chemical Company name was 17 A. It's up in -- well, it's Michigan, Willow Run 18 resurrected to reflect the previous industrial 18 area. 19 chemicals, intermediate chemicals and one of the 19 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 2 20 assignments I received under that organization was 20 marked for identification.) 21 centered on industrial hygiene matters for not only 21 Q. The court reporter has handed you what has 22 some of the plants within Monsanto but all of the 22 been marked as Papageorge Exhibit 2 which, for the 23 plants assigned to this new bigger chemical company 23 record, is a copy of the subpoena for deposition to 24 group so instead of, say, being responsible for ten or 24 Monsanto Company with the attached rider and I'll ask Page 15 Page 18 1 12 plants I now found that I had a list of about 30 of 1 you, Mr. Papageorge, have you seen this before? 2 them, so it was a different approach, a broader base 2 A. No, sir. 3 but a narrower field. 3 Q. At some point in time were you asked to pull 4 Q. Narrower field being occupational health as 4 together certain documents related to McGraw-Edison 5 opposed to environment in general? 5 Company to your recollection? 6 A. Correct. 6 A. No, sir.I'm assuming recent time or -- 7 Q. And by occupational health we basically mean 7 Q. Yes. 8 just health of workers in the working environment? 8 A. No. 9 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. This subpoena,regardless of the fact that - 10 Q. Then you retired on the 31st of December of 10 I understand that you haven't seen it before but it 11 1986, that sound about right? 11 calls for someone to -- it calls for Monsanto to 12 A. That is correct. 12 designate one of more of its officers, directors or 13 Q. I see that you're a member of the American 13 managing agents or other persons to testify on its 14 Chemicals Society as reflected on the second page of 14 behalf as to matters known or reasonably known to 15 your Curriculum Vitae. How long have you been a member 15 Monsanto with respect to various areas of inquiry that 16 of the American Chemical Society? 16 are identified in this document. Do you understand 17 A. Over 50 years. 17 that you have been designated as the person most 18 Q. I see that you're also a member of the 18 knowledgable to testify regarding matters that are set 19 American Institute of Chemical Engineers. How long 19 forth in the subpoena that was served upon Monsanto? 20 have you been a member of that professional 20 A. I understand that I am to participate in that 21 organization? 21 activity. I do not know if I'm the only one. I don't 22 A. Fifty years. 22 know that. 23 Q. I see that also according to your Curriculum 23 Q. Sure. 24 Vitae that you're a registered professional engineer. 24 MR. RIPPERGER: Just for the record, Page 16 Page 19 1 How long have you been a registered professional 1 Roily, do you know who it was that put together the 2 engineer? 2 documents that were provided for us? 3 A. As best I remember, since 1963 or '64. 3 MR. CHAMBERS: That was done by the 4 Q. You indicated that you testified as an expert 4 Monsanto in-house staff from documents that had been 5 at least at one point in time. Have you testified as 5 collected and was coordinated by my partner, Girard 6 an expert on several occasions? 6 Davids. 7 A. Three occasions. 7 MR. RIPPERGER: okay. Can 8 Q. Can you tell me what occasions those were. 8 Mr. Papageorge testify as to the authenticity of the 9 A. Well, in one case I was asked to testify 9 documents that were produced for us? 10 regarding the feasibility of a system including a 10 MR. CHAMBERS: I would assume -- I would 11 pumping arrangement and whether that system would 11 assume a number of them he'll be able to because he may 12 perform as expected by the operators of the system. 12 have some firsthand familiarity with them. 13 Q. Before we go on, when you say the system, was 13 MR. RIPPERGER: Well, yeah, in going 14 this some type of manufacturing system that you're 14 through some of the documents he does have some 15 talking about? 15 firsthand familiarity with them as he drafted some of 16 A. Yes, sir. 16 them but I guess basically my question -- well, let's 17 Q. Okay. What other timesto your recollection? 17 do it this way. Q. You do understand, Mr. Papageorge, 18 A. And another time Iwas asked to testify 18 that you were designated to testify on behalf of 19 regarding the functions of a plant manager at a site 19 Monsanto with respect to at least some of the issues 20 and what was expected or what can be expected under a 20 that are identified in the subpoena that was served 21 normal, well run situation, specifically with respect 21 upon Monsanto? 22 to communication from his team staff members and so on. 22 A. I do. 23 Q. What was the nature of that lawsuit to your 23 Q. Do you know whether Monsanto caused a search 24 recollection? 24 to be done for the documents that are requested in the KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY Page 14 - Page 19 WATER PCB-SD0000070460 Multi-PageTM Page 20 Page 23 1 subpoena that was served upon Monsanto? 2 A. I was informed so, yes. 3 Q. Do you, to the best of your information, 4 believe you're the person most knowledgable at Monsanto 5 as to the origin, puroose and custody of the documents 6 that were produced by Monsanto to Wausau in this 7 matter? 8 A. I have no reason to believe otherwise, sir. 9 Q. The documents that were produced here -- that 10 were produced to the defendants, and I have a copy of 11 them here. For the record they're BATES stamped mge 12 000001 through MGE 003105 that were produced by 13 Monsanto. To your knowledge were these documents that 14 were produced nere for us today made in the ordinary 15 course of business at Monsanto? 16 A. Yes. 17 MR. HENSLER: I'll object. 18 Q. To your knowledge the documents that were 19 produced for us that we've identified here, were they 20 prepared within a short time of the acts, conditions or 21 events that are described within the documents to your 22 knowledge? 23 A. Yes. 24 MR. HENSLER: objection. Lack of 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Can you tell me, was he at Monsanto in the 3 '69 time frame? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What was his position? 6 A. In 1969 Mr. Wheeler was the second person in 7 authority in Monsanto's corporate medical department. 8 I don't recall his Monsanto title. It's Manager of 9 Occupational Health but I'm not certain. Something 10 like that. 11 Q. When you say Monsanto's medical department, 12 what do you mean by that? How was that department 13 comprised? 14 A. It was headed by a doctor of medicine and had 15 an industrial hygienist, had Mr. Wheeler reporting to 16 it, it had other professionals as well as a medical 17 librarian. It was an organization that was responsible 18 for the corporations and health programs of all kinds. 19 Q. Do you recall ever seeing a letter from 20 Mr. Wheeler to various Monsanto entities regarding the 21 issue of PCB's in the environment when it was first -- 22 when the issue first arose in the '69 time frame? 23 A. I saw the letter you're referring to but it 24 was in early 1970. Page 21 Page 24 1 foundation. 1 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 3 2 A. Yes. 2 marked for identification.) 3 Q. And these documents that were produced for 3 Q. The court reporter has handed you what has 4 us, are they kept in the ordinary course of Monsanto's 4 been marked as Papageorge Exhibit 3. Do you recognize 5 business? 5 that, Mr. Papageorge? 6 MR. HENSLER: same objection. 6 A. I do. 7 A. Yes. 7 Q. Is that the letter that Mr. Wheeler sent out 8 Q. And to your knowledge was Monsanto required 8 in the '69 time frame? 9 to keep these documents that were produced for us here 9 A. It is. 10 today? 10 Q. When you saw this letter -- if you'll notice 11 MR. HENSLER: same objection. 11 the last page of this document, it says "Recipients of 12 A. Required by whom, sir? 12 the Letter From Elmer P. Wheeler, you see that? 13 Q. To your knowledge what is the records 13 A. I see that, yes. 14 retention policy of Monsanto? 14 Q. When you saw this later in the '70 time frame 15 A. It's a very elaborate policy and it addresses 15 were the recipients attached to itsuch as this letter 16 different documents with different approaches. Some 16 is organized here? 17 will be discarded within a short period of time, some 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 kept forever and times in between. 18 Q. And who were those various recipients in 19 Q. To your knowledge these documents that were 19 the '69 time frame? Were those Monsanto customers? 20 produced here today, were they kept in the ordinary 20 A. These are Monsanto customers of PCB type 21 course of business as a policy of the records retention 21 materials used in electrical equipment. 22 of Monsanto? 22 Q. There's a reference there on the first 23 A. Yes. 23 paragraph of this letter on the first page, a reference 24 MR. HENSLER: objection. Lack of 24 to an article by a Dr. Robert Risebrough. Do you see Page 22 Page 25 1 foundation. 1 that reference? 2 Q. Do you recall, sir, in the 1969 time frame of 2 A. I do. 3 being informed of the issue of PCB's being present in 3 Q. Do you know what that is referring to? 4 the environment? 4 A. Yes. 5 A. Yes. 5 Q. What does that refer to? 6 Q. Can you tell me what you recall with respect 6 A. This refersto a study made at that time by 7 to that issue? 7 Dr. Risebrough at the Umversity of California Berkley 8 A. Well, the first information I personally had 8 regarding the decreasing population of pelicans off 9 I received from my immediate supervisor when he visited 9 Southern California. He attributed that inability of 10 the plant, as I remember, in the summer of 1969, about 10 the pelican to reproduce to the fact that the eggs of 11 June or so, on one of his frequent visits and he 11 the pelican were effected by DDT and PCB's and that's 12 informed me that there was an evolving situation in 12 what this article in the San Francisco Chronicle was 13 which PCB's were being found in environmental type 13 describing. 14 samples as distinguished from industrial product 14 Q. Did you have occasion to see that study by 15 samples and the like that were perceived to be a 15 Mr. Risebrough? I should say Dr. Risebrough? 16 surprise, there didn't seem to be any connection 16 A. I saw a report to Dr. Risebrough had been 17 between the presence in the sample and its industrial 17 published. I don't know if that was all of his study. 18 use. That was my first awareness. 18 Q. Sure. 19 Q. Who was your supervisor at that time? 19 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 4 20 A. Raymond Stratmeyer, S-t-r-a-t-m-e-y-e-r. 20 marked for identification.) 21 Q. What plant was that at? 21 Q. I've handed you what the court reporter has 22 A. The Anniston, Alabama plant. 22 marked as Papageorge Exhibit 4 which is a five-page 23 Q. Do you know an individual by the name of 23 article from Nature of December 14, 1968 entitled 24 Elmer Wheeler? 24 "Polychlorinated Biphenyls in the Global Ecosystem" KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY Page 20 - Page 25 WATER PCB-SD0000070461 Multi-PageTM Page 26 Page 29 1 and I'll ask you if you've had a chance to review that? 1 MR. RIPPERGER: Were they bates stamped 2 A. I have scanned it. I've seen it before. 2 mge 0001 and then sequential after that? 3 Q. Sure, that's what I was going to ask you. 3 MR. HENSLER: Yes. 4 Have you seen this before? 4 MR. RIPPERGER: Q. Mr. Papageorge, the 5 A. I have. 5 court reporter has handed you what has been marked 6 Q. Is this the article by Dr. Risebrough that 6 Papageorge Exhibit 4, a February 9, 1970 letter with 7 brought about the awareness of the PCB contamination 7 various attachments. 8 issue? 8 MR. chambers: Let me object to the 9 A. Well, this is certainly an article that 9 form. I think it's Exhibit 5 instead of 4. 10 covers that issue. I don't know if it brought about an 10 MR. RIPPERGER: I'm sorry. Q. Is it 5? 11 awareness on the part of the newspaper. I don't know 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 what the newspaper knew to result in the article it had 12 Q. Letme start over. Mr. Papageorge, the court 13 published. 13 reporter has handed you what has been marked as 14 Q. Sure. When you say an article that covers 14 Papageorge Exhibit 5 which is a February 9, 1970 letter 15 that issue, that issue being the potential 15 with various attachments addressed to a ''Dear Sir" and 16 contamination of the environment by PCB's? 16 from a Ronald Olson. Have you seen this letter before? 17 A. In that area for this -- for these birds. 17 A. Yes, I have. 18 Q. Right. Do you know whether this was the 18 Q. Okay. Is this an example of one of the 19 first article that came out by Dr. Risebrough that 19 letters that was sent to various Monsanto customers 20 brought an awareness to this issue. 20 keeping them apprised of the potential problem of PCB 21 MR. HENSLER: objection to the form of 21 environmental contamination in the 1970 time frame? 22 the question. Lacks foundation. 22 A. Yes. 23 A. I am under an impression that was the first 23 Q. If you'll look on the last three pages of 24 article he published on that subject. 24 these documents -- of this document, and they are BATES Page 27 Page 30 1 Q. Why are you under that impression? 1 stamped in sequential order. My question is, does this 2 A. The timing particularly. 2 indicate to you that McGraw-Edison as one of Monsanto's 3 Q. Right. Okay. Thank you. Do you know 3 customers in the 1970 time frame would have received 4 whether in the 1970 time frame when you became an -- 4 what we've marked as Exhibit 5? 5 manager of environmental control whether Monsanto sent 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 letters to its customers keeping them apprized of the 6 MR. HENSLER: objection to the form of 7 PCB situation? 7 the question. 8 MR. HENSLER: objection to the form of 8 Q. Why does it indicate that to you? 9 the question. 9 A. Well, I was familiar with the way we kept 10 A. Yes, they did. 10 records. 11 MR. R1PPERGER: what's the objection as 11 Q. Sure. 12 to the form? 12 A. And the letter with the attachments was 13 MR. HENSLER: it was just vague in terms 13 intended for customers like McGraw-Edison and it all 14 of customers. I'm sure Monsanto had a lot of 14 seems to fit, makes sense. 15 customers. 15 Q. Okay. 16 MR. RIPPERGER: Q. Did Monsanto send 16 MR. RIPPERGER: Roily, various of these 17 letters to various -- its customers of dielectric 17 letters have attachments like this with addressees on 18 fluids in the 1970 time frame with respect to keeping 18 them and it appears like they may have been -- that 19 them apprized of the PCB contamination issues? 19 they may have redacted the other customers that 20 A. Yes. 20 received the letter. 21 MR. HENSLER: Same objection. 21 MR. CHAMBERS: Yes, that is correct, 22 Q. Did you have occasion when those letters were 22 that's correct. 23 sent to Monsanto customers in the 1970 time frame to 23 MR. RIPPERGER: That's what I was 24 see those letters? 24 wondering. So at least to your understanding, Roily, Page 28 Page 31 1 A. Yes. 1 as these were produced the various customers would have 2 Q. Do you know who Donald Olson - do you 2 been listed on these pages and they were all redacted 3 recognize that name, Donald Olson? 3 except McGraw-Edison? 4 A. I do. 4 MR. CHAMBERS: That's correct. 5 Q. What was his position in the 1970 time frame 5 MR. ripperger: And that was because of 6 in Monsanto? 6 the confidentiality of the customers at Monsanto I take 7 A. At the time he was the marketing director for 7 it? 8 the business group within Monsanto that marketed fluids 8 MR. CHAMBERS: That's correct. 9 used in industry of which the dielectric fluids were an 9 MR. RIPPERGER: what we've marked as 10 example. 10 Exhibit 3 has the recepients of the Elmer P. Wheeler 11 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 5 11 letter and it has all the customers listed. Do you 12 marked for identification.) 12 think that that was just inadvertent, that those 13 (Whereupon a break was taken.) 13 weren't redacted like the others? 14 MR. RIPPERGER: For the record, Roily, 14 MR. CHAMBERS: May well be. 15 do you know whether copies of these documents that were 15 MR. RIPPERGER: And if, in fact, you'd 16 produced to us by Monsanto, whether they were also 16 like to have this document back and redact the other 17 provided to McGraw? 17 customers, I wouldn't have a problem with that. 18 MR. CHAMBERS: I believe that-1 18 MR. CHAMBERS: Okay. 19 believe that they were, although I would have to go 19 MR. RIPPERGER: Q. The second page of 20 back and check the file to confirm that. 20 what we've marked as Exhibit 5, the signature there, I 21 MR. HENSLER: We received a box of 21 know it's difficult to read but do you recognize that 22 documents from -1 think it was from - 22 as Mr. Olson's signature? 23 MR. CHAMBERS: Mr. Davids. 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 MR. HENSLER: Right. 24 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 6 KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY Page 26 - Page 31 WATER PCB-SD0000070462 Multi-PageTM Page 32 Page 35 1 marked for identification.) 1 A. It refers to the discovery of PCB's in 2 Q. I'm going to show you what the court reporter 2 environmental samples. 3 has marked as Papageorge Exhibit 6 and ask you if that 3 Q. Do you know an individual by the name of 4 letter is an additional example of letters that were 4 Randall Graham? 5 sent to various Monsanto customers to apprise them of 5 A. I do. 6 the potential environmental contamination problem with 6 Q. Was he at McGraw in the 1970 time frame? 7 respect to PCB's in the 1970 time frame? 7 A. I'm sorry? 8 A. It is. 8 Q. I'm sorry, was he at Monsanto in the 1970 9 Q. The last page of this exhibit says "Addresses 9 time frame? 10 for second mailing not found on lists" and one of the 10 A. Yes, he was. 11 entities -- at least it appears others may have been 11 Q. What's his position at Monsanto in the 1970 12 redacted but one of them there is McGraw-Edison, 12 time frame? 13 Bluefield, West Virginia. Do you see that? 13 A. He was Monsanto's fieldrepresentative 14 A. I do. 14 marketing fluids for use in electrical equipment. 15 Q. Does this indicate to you that this letter, 15 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 8 16 the second letter, would have been forwarded to 16 marked for identification.) 17 McGraw-Edison in Bluefield, West Virginia? 17 Q. Do you recall in the 1970 time frame that 18 A. Yes. 18 disposal of waste PCB oils became an issue? 19 Q. Again, the second page of the letter itself 19 A. I have trouble understanding the use of the 20 sots Don Olson there. Do you recognize that as 20 word issue. 21 Mr. Olson's signature? 21 Q. I understand. Let me rephrase it. Do you 22 A. I do. 22 recall in the 1970 time frame whether Monsanto began 23 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 7 23 disposing of waste PCB oils for its customers at the 24 marked for identification.) 24 Krummrich Plant? Page 33 Page 36 1 Q. Do you recall when the PCB potential 1 A. Yes. 2 contamination situation arose in the 1970 time frame 2 Q. Can you tell me how that came about? 3 whether Monsanto developed a new type of product that 3 A. The Monsanto plant of course was very 4 had less PCB's in it? 4 interested in keeping PCB's from being improperly 5 A. When you said product, singular, you mean for 5 disposed. The decision was made to obtain - design 6 a specific replacement? 6 ana obtain a unit that would destroy the PCB's 7 Q. Yes, for a replacement of Aroclor 1242. Do 7 efficiently since none were known to exist at that time 8 you recall whether a product was developed -- 8 to the industry. Many of its customers were frustrated 9 A. Yes. 9 in terms of the proper way to dispose of liquid 10 Q. -- to replace Aroclor 1242? 10 containing PCB's so Monsanto took it on its own to have 11 A. Yes. 11 designed and install an incinerator at its Krummrich 12 Q. Was that MCS 10167 12 plant for purposes of destroying material not only that 13 A. Correct. 13 Monsanto might have accumulated but also its customers. 14 Q. Why was it that MCS 1016 was developed, to 14 Q. I'm going to show you what the court reporter 15 your recollection? 15 has marked as Papageorge Exhibit 8, ask you to take a 16 A. It was developed to provide the fire 16 look at that and let me know when you've had a chance 17 resistant and insulating properties of the original 17 to do so. 18 1242 but not introduce into the environment the more 18 A. I have scanned the article, the exhibit. 19 resistant types of PCB's in the event that fluid did 19 Q. Exhibit 8 is a letter with attachments dated 20 escape into the environment. 20 September 25, 1970 from Randall Graham to "Dear 21 Q. I'm going to show you what the court reporter 21 Mr." and it's blank and what I'm wondering -- well, let 22 has marked as Papageorge Exhibit 7, ask you to take a 22 me ask you this first, have you seen this letter 23 look at that if you would, please. Have you seen 23 before? 24 Exhibit 7 before? 24 A. Yes, sir. Page 34 Page 37 1 A. Yes, I have. 1 Q. To your understanding did this letter go out 2 Q. What is Exhibit 7? 2 to Monsanto's customers? 3 A. It's a copy of a letter with Monsanto 3 A. Yes. 4 letterhead authored and signed by Mr. Paul Benignus. 4 Q. And does this letter describe within it the 5 Q. Do you recognize that as ms signature? 5 incinerator that you just talked to me about that was 6 A. Yes, I do. 6 developed at the Krummrich plant? 7 Q. In reviewing this letter in the attachment, 7 A. I don't know if it describes it. It does 8 does this indicate to you that this letter would have 8 mention its presence. 9 been forwarded to McGraw-Edison Line Materials Company, 9 Q. In reviewing this letter, specifically the 10 South Milwaukee, Wisconsin? 10 last page where it identifies McGraw-Edison, South 11 A. Yes. 11 Milwaukee, Wisconsin, does that indicate to you that 12 Q. And in answering that you're looking at the 12 this letter would have indeed went to McGraw-Edison in 13 last page of this document? 13 South Milwaukee, Wisconsin? 14 A. I am. 14 A. It does. 15 Q. There's a reference on the second page of 15 Q. Can you tell me, Mr.Papageorge, what the 16 this document, the last full paragraph, other than the 16 term Askarel refers to? 17 thank you for your assistance, just above that, that 17 A. Askarel is a generic term used by the 18 last sentence there refers to a pcb pollution problem, 18 electrical equipment manufacturers to describe a liquid 19 do you see that reference? 19 used in the equipment they manufacture that is fire 20 A. Yes. 20 resistant. 21 Q. Do you know what that was referring to, the 21 Q. Would Askarel have been a generic term for 22 PCB pollution problem in the August '70 time frame? 22 several of the compounds that were manufactured by 23 MR. HENSLER: objection. Lacks 23 Monsanto that were sold by various customers? 24 foundation. 24 A. When you say several of the compounds -- KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY Page 32 - Page 37 WATER PCB-SD0000070463 Multi-PageTM Page 38 Page 41 1 Q. Well, let me ask you this. Is Askarel a 1 A. Very much so, yes. 2 generic term forAroclor? 2 Q. Why was that a concern of Monsanto in the 3 A. Yes. 3 1970 time frame? 4 Q. AndAroclors were items that Monsanto 4 A. It was part of our intention to keep PCB's 5 manufactured and sold to its various customers? 5 out of the environment. 6 A. Yes. 6 Q. And do you recall that concern being 7 Q. Was Askarel a generic term for Pyranol? 7 communicated to Monsanto's customers? 8 A. Yes. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. What was Pyranol? 9 Q. Can you tell me what Santovac 1 and Santovac 10 A. Pyranol was a mixture of ingredients, one of 10 2 vacuum pump fluids were? 11 the ingredients being PCB's. 11 A. They were PCB's used in pump systems to help 12 Q. What was Pyranol used for? Was that a 12 the pumps operate in a way that they could create 13 hydraulic fluid? 13 vacuums. 14 A. No. 14 Q. Do you recall at some point in time whether 15 Q. No? 15 Monsanto decided to cease selling Santovac 1 and 16 A. That's a GE trademark for a mixture used in 16 Santovac 2? 17 transformers. 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And Aroclors, they were also designed for use 18 Q. Do you recall approximately when that was? 19 in transformers? 19 A. '71. It'sbeen decades so-- 20 A. They could be without any other ingredients 20 Q. Sure, I understand.Do you know an 21 present. 21 individual by the name of Howard Bergen? 22 Q. How about Inerteen, am I pronouncing that 22 A. Yes. 23 right? 23 Q. Was he at Monsanto in the '71 time frame? 24 A. That is correct. 24 A. Yes, sir. Page 39 Page 42 1 Q. Can you tell me what Inerteen was? 1 Q. Can you tell me what his position was? 2 A. Inerteen was a Westinghouse trademark used 2 A. He was the director of the business group 3 for several mixtures of ingredients, one of which was 3 that marketed the PCB products for use as fluids in 4 PCB's for use in electrical equipment. 4 industrial equipment. 5 Q. So Inerteen was Westmghouse, Pyranol was GE 5 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 10 6 and Aroclor was Monsanto? 6 marked for identification.) 7 A. Correct. 7 Q. I'm going to hand you what the court reporter 8 Q. And those various fluids were generically 8 has marked as Papageorge Exhibit 10 which is a December 9 known as Askarel fluids? 9 31, 1971 letter to a "Dear Sir" from Mr. Howard Bergen 10 A. Yes. 10 with attachments. Have you seen this before, 11 Q. Do you know an individual by the name of 11 Mr. Papageorge? 12 James G. Bryant? 12 A. Yes, I have. 13 A. Yes. 13 MR. HENSLER: Did you have another copy 14 Q. Was he at Monsanto in the '70 time frame? 14 of that one? 15 A. Yes. 15 MR. RIPPERGER: Sorry. 16 Q. Can you tell me what his position was? 16 MR. hensler: That's okay. 17 A. He was the technical person on the marketing 17 MR. RIPPERGER: Q. Do you recognize 18 staff located in St. Louis that was involved with the 18 that as Mr. Bergen's signature on the second page of 19 marketing of fluids used in electrical equipment. 19 this document? 20 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 9 20 A. I do. 21 marked for identification.) 21 Q. Does this letter at all refresh your 22 Q. The court reporter has marked Papageorge 22 recollection as to when Santovac 1 and Santovac 2 were 23 Exhibit 9. Can you take a moment, please, to look at 23 no longer being sold by Monsanto? 24 that exhibit and let me know when you've had a chance 24 A. Yes, it does,um-hum. Page 40 Page 43 1 to do so. 1 Q. Does that - does the indication of this 2 A. I have read it. 2 letter - December 31, '71, does that sound about 3 Q. Have you seen this letter before? 3 right? 4 A. Yes, I have. 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Do you recognize that as Mr. Bryant's 5 Q. This letter with attachments in the last page 6 signature on this letter? 6 specifically referring to McGraw-Edison, South 7 A. Yes. 7 Milwaukee, Wisconsin, does that indicate to you that 8 Q. Does this letter which is dated September 15, 8 this letter would have, in deed, been forwarded to 9 1970 with one attachment, does the attachment indicate 9 Monsanto's customers including McGraw-Edison? 10 to you that this letter was forwarded to McGraw-Edison, 10 A. Yes. 11 Milwaukee, Wisconsin when it was prepared in the 1970 11 Q. There'sa reference in the third paragraph of 12 time frame? 12 the first page of the letter. It says there "Because 13 A. It was -- it does. 13 of Monsanto's concern over this problem we have 14 Q. I think I already asked you this but is that 14 discontinued sales of PCB's where the usage was in 15 Mr. Bryant's signature there? 15 so-called open systems." Did I read that right? 16 A. Yes. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. There'sa reference there on the second 17 Q. Can you tell me what that reference is,open 18 paragraph. It says "Therefore, control of waste and 18 systems? 19 spills is imperative. " Do you see that reference? 19 A. That was a term used within Monsanto to 20 A. I do. 20 describe uses where PCB's were not in sealed equipment, 21 Q. Do you recall that being a concern of 21 and examples of those, for example, as an ingredient in 22 Monsanto in the 1970 time frame -- 22 paint used for highway striping, the yellow and white 23 A. Yes. 23 paint, or the PCB's used in sealants and caulking 24 Q. - waste and spills of PCB contaminated oils? 24 around buildings such as this one or PCB's that were KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY Page 38 - Page 43 WATER PCB-SD0000070464 Multi-PageTM Page 44 Page 47 1 used in floor tile. That type of application was 1 probably mark the remaining pages as 12. 2 perceived to be almost immediate entry into the 2 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 12 3 environment and was discontinued in 1970. 3 marked for identification.) 4 Q. Monsanto then limited its sales to PCB's that 4 Q. Exhibit 11 which is now the one-page letter 5 were used in closed systems? 5 from Mr. Bergen, have you seen this before? 6 A. Yes. 6 A. I have. 7 Q. Was that mainly transformers and electrical 7 Q. Is this an example of a letter that was sent 8 equipment? 8 out to various McGraw customers regarding the pcb 9 A. Well, certainly that's a big user of PCB 9 contamination issue? 10 fluids in systems. 10 MR. CHAMBERS: Let me object to the 11 Q. Any others that you can recall? 11 form. I think you said McGraw customers rather than 12 A. Yes, there were the hydraulic uses, hydraulic 12 Monsanto customers. 13 fluids and there were the heat transfer applications. 13 MR. ripperger: I'm sorry. 14 These were perceived initially to be closed systems 14 MR. CHAMBERS: That's okay. 15 designed to be closed. 15 MR. RIPPERGER: Q. Is this an example 16 Q. Is what we've marked as Exhibit 10, this 16 of a letter that was sent by Monsanto to its customers 17 letter from Mr. Bergen to Monsanto customers an example 17 in - as an example of notifying its customers about 18 of letters that were sent to Monsanto customers in 18 the PCB situation? 19 the '70, '71 time frame to keep them apprised of the 19 A. Yes. 20 pcb situation? 20 Q. Is that Mr. Bergen's signature on that page 21 A. Yes, sir. 21 there? 22 Q. Do you recall at some point in time whether 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Monsanto required the purchasers of PCB materials to 23 Q. Let's turn to Exhibit 12, please, which now 24 enter into a hold harmless agreement with Monsanto? 24 is a two-page letter from Mr. Bergen, again to no Page 45 Page 48 1 A. I do. 1 addressee, with an attached nonwaiver agreement and the 2 Q. Can you tell me what you recall with respect 2 last page being a letter to responsible customers 3 to that, how that came about? 3 indicatmg McGraw-Edison, South Milwaukee, Wisconsin. 4 A. Oh, I don't know what you mean by how it came 4 Have you seen this before? 5 about. 5 A. Yes, I have. 6 Q. How was it decided that Monsanto would 6 Q. Do you believe that these documents belong 7 require its customers to enter into a hold harmless 7 together? 8 agreement? 8 A. Yes. 9 a. I was not personally privy to the decision 9 Q. Okay. 10 making process but I was informed in December, the 10 MR. chambers: By these documents you're 11 Christmas season of '71, I recall, that the decision 11 just referring to the one BATES stamped 002944 through 12 had been made to prepare a document in which the 12 002948? 13 customers who insisted on receiving PCB type fluids for 13 MR. RIPPERGER: correct. 14 electrical applications had to sign and agree to the 14 MR. CHAMBERS: Okay. 15 terms of that document and as I recall that program 15 MR. RIPPERGER: Q. Have you seen this 16 became effective in 1972. 16 letter from Mr. Bergen before? 17 Q. Do you recall whether a letter was prepared 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 and sent out to Monsanto's customers with respect to 18 Q. Do you have an understanding that this letter 19 signing a nonwaiver agreement if they purchase 19 was in deed sent to various Monsanto customers who were 20 materials containing PCB's? 20 purchasing PCB fluids in the 1971, '72 time frame? 21 a. Yes. 21 A. Yes. 22 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 11 22 Q. And do you recognize that as Mr. Bergen's 23 marked for identification.) 23 signature on this letter? 24 Q. I've handed you what the court reporter has 24 A. Yes, I do. Page 46 Page 49 1 marked as Exhibit 11 which is a one-page letter from 1 Q. Based upon these documents would it be your 2 Mr. Howard Bergen with no addressee attaching a 2 understanding that this letter would have indeed been 3 two-page letter from Howard Bergen, again with no 3 forwarded to McGraw-Edison, South Milwaukee, Wisconsin? 4 addressee and then attaching a nonwaiver agreement and 4 A. Yes. 5 the last page entitled "Letter to responsible 5 Q. Do you know whether McGraw-Edison entered 6 customers," one of which identified there is 6 into this nonwaiver agreement that's attached to this 7 McGraw-Edison, South Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Have you 7 letter? 8 seen this before? 8 A. They did. 9 A. Well, I've seen the documents in the exhibit, 9 Q. Do you know an individual by the name of -- 10 yes. 10 can't read it. Let's do it this way, mark that as 11 Q. Do you know whether -- well, let me ask you 11 Exhibit 13. 12 this, is this -- were these letters forwarded to 12 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 13 13 various Monsanto customers informing them that they 13 marked for identification.) 14 would have to enter into the nonwaiver agreement? 14 Q. I've handed you what the court reporter has 15 A. I'm rather confused, sir. The sheet that is 15 marked as Exhibit 13. Do you recognize this document? 16 stamped MGE 2943 - 16 A. I do. 17 Q. Yes. 17 Q. Is this the nonwaiver agreement executed by 18 A. -- is not related to the rest of the exhibit. 18 McGraw-Edison and Monsanto? 19 Q. Okay. Let's do it this way, let's take off 19 A. Did you say non-waiving? 20 the first page of the exhibit and make MGE 002943, 20 Q. Nonwaiver agreement. 21 we'll make that Exhibit 11. 21 A. Oh. Yes. 22 MR. CHAMBERS: Would you like us to hand 22 Q. The signature there of the Monsanto Company, 23 back the remaining pages? 23 do you see that signature there? 24 MR. RIPPERGER: NO, I think I'll 24 A. I do. KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY Page 44 - Page 49 WATER PCB-SD0000070465 Multi-PageTM Page 50 Page 53 1 Q. Can you tell me who that is? 1 Q. The court reporter has handed you what we've 2 A. That's C.P. Cunningham. 2 marked as Papageorge Exhibit 15 which is a two-page 3 Q. What would have Mr. Cunningham -- well, I 3 letter from Mr. Papageorge to "Dear Sir" with an 4 shouldn't presume. Is Mr. Cunningham a man? 4 attached mailing list and I'll ask you, Mr. Papageorge, 5 A. Yes, sir. 5 do you recognize this document? 6 Q. What was his position in the January '72 time 6 A. I do. 7 frame? 7 Q. And that's your signature there on the second 8 A. At that time he was -- I believe he had the 8 page? 9 title of vice-president of the chemical intermediate 9 A. It is. 10 company, one of those units that we described earlier. 10 Q. Do you recall preparing this letter in the 11 Q. Sure. Do you recognize that as his signature 11 April, 1972 time frame advising companies -- keeping 12 there? 12 them advised of the developments relating to the 13 A. Yes, I do. 13 polychlorinated biphenyl environmental situation? 14 Q. Do you know anindividual by the name of W.W. 14 A. I do. 15 Renberg? 15 Q. Do you recall why it was that you prepared 16 A. I do not. 16 this letter in the '72 time frame? 17 Q. Do you recall at some point in time that 17 A. This is to share with customers of PCB 18 Monsanto -- never mind, let me ask it this way. Do you 18 products the high interest that the regulatory agency 19 recall at some point in time that Monsanto stopped 19 had in getting information regarding the recepients of 20 using polychlorinated compounds and it was Pydraul that 20 the material and the quantities and the dates and it's 21 it was using? 21 been -- it was Monsanto's policy not to divulge that 22 A. Yes. 22 type of information but we believed at the time that 23 Q. Do you recall approximately when that was? 23 the day would come when we could no longer withhold it 24 A. 1972. 24 and we wanted our customers to understand that that's Page 51 Page 54 1 Q. Do you know an individual by the name of 1 the position that we found ourselves in. 2 Jerry Davidson? 2 Q. The last sentence of this letter - excuse 3 A. Yes. 3 me, the last paragraph says "If pcb's are still present 4 Q. Was he at Monsanto in the '72 time frame? 4 at your locations you are urged to thoroughly review 5 A. Yes, sir. 5 your procedures and inspect your facilities." You see 6 Q. What was his position? 6 that reference? 7 A. He was the technical member of the Monsanto 7 A. I do. 8 marketing team located in St. Louis who was assigned to 8 Q. Why was it that you were urging your 9 the group that marketed the hydraulic fluids which were 9 customers to review their procedures and inspect their 10 soldunder the trademark Pydraul, P-y-d-r-a-u-1. 10 facilities with respect to PCB's? 11 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 14 11 A. Well, this is a further indication of our 12 marked for identification.) 12 desire to inform the customer of the need to keep it 13 Q. The court reporter has handed you what she's 13 away from the environment. 14 marked as Exhibit 14 which is a one-page letter from 14 Q. This attached mailing list, one being 15 Mr. Bergen with attachments. Have you seen this 15 McGraw-Edison, South Milwaukee, Wisconsin, does that 16 before? 16 indicate to you that this letter was forwarded to 17 A. Yes, I have. 17 McGraw-Edison? 18 Q. The last page there, "Pydraul mailing list," 18 A. It does. 19 do you see that reference? 19 Q. You know an individual by the name of Cumming 20 A. I do. 20 Paton? 21 Q. Does this -- the reference in this mailing 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 list, does that reference the letter that's attached 22 Q. Did I pronounce that right? 23 regarding the reformulation of Pydraul? 23 A. Paton but -- 24 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. Can you tell me what Mr. Paton's Page 52 Page 55 1 Q. I see an individual there up on top, Pydraul 1 position at Monsanto was in the '73 time frame? 2 mailing list, W. B. Papageorge. That would have been 2 A. '73. I forget his exact title but he was a 3 you? 3 manager of - as best I recall he was a manager of the 4 A. Yes. 4 product that was still marketed that contained PCB's. 5 Q. Do you recognize -- do you recall receiving 5 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 16 6 this letter from Mr. Bergen in the January 31, 1972 6 marked for identification.) 7 time frame? 7 Q. I've handed you what the court reporter 8 A. Yes, sir. 8 marked as Papageorge Exhibit 16 which is a two-page 9 Q. The third page of the document which appears 9 letter from a Cumming Paton to "Dear Sir" with 10 to be a mailing fist has Director of Purchases, Elgin, 10 attachments and what appears to be an attached mailing 11 Illinois -- McGraw-Edison Company, Elgin, Illinois and 11 list and ask you, Mr. Papageorge, have you seen this 12 Director of Purchases, Bersted Manufacturing Division, 12 before? 13 McGraw-Edison Company, Tupelo, Mississippi. Do you see 13 A. I have. 14 those references? 14 Q. Do you recall this letter being sent to 15 A. I do. 15 McGraw's customers in the August, '73 time frame? 16 Q. Does that indicate to you that this letter 16 MR. CHAMBERS: Let me object. 17 was forwarded to McGraw-Edison at those two locations? 17 MR. RIPPERGER: I'm sorry. Let me 18 A. Yes. 18 restate it, I apologize. 19 Q. Do you recall preparing letters to Monsanto's 19 MR. CHAMBERS: That's okay. 20 customers keeping them advised of the developments 20 MR. RIPPERGER: Q. Do you recall 21 relating to the PCB environmental situation? 21 whether this letter was sent to Monsanto's customers in 22 A. Yes. 22 the August, '73 time frame? 23 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 15 23 A. I do. 24 marked for identification.) 24 Q. And it was? KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY Page 50 - Page 55 WATER PCB-SD0000070466 Multi-PageTM Page 56 Page 59 1 A. Yes. 1 mailing list, the letter being dated October 4, 1976 to 2 Q. This attachedmailing list here, does that 2 a "Dear Sir" from R.G. Potter. Mr. Papageorge, have 3 indicate to you that this letter would have been sent 3 you seen this before? 4 to McGraw-Edison Company in Elgin, Illinois and 4 A. Yes, I have. 5 McGraw-Edison Company in Tupelo, Mississippi and 5 Q. Did you see this when it was sent out in the 6 McGraw-Edison Company in South Milwaukee, Wisconsin? 6 '76 time frame? 7 A. Yes. 7 A. No. 8 Q. This letter has an attachedfederal register 8 Q. When was it that you first had occasion to 9 regarding pcb's. Do you recall seeing this federal 9 see this, to your recollection? 10 register m the '73 time frame? 10 A. Oh, it must have been within six months of 11 A. I do. 11 the date it was sent out. 12 Q. Do you recall that it was, in deed, forwarded 12 Q. Okay. Do you recall that in deed this letter 13 to Monsanto's customers? 13 was sent out to various Monsanto customers in the '76 14 A. Yes. 14 time frame? 15 Q. Why was it that Monsanto would have forwarded 15 A. Yes. 16 this to its customers in the '73 time frame? 16 Q. Based upon what appears to be a portion of a 17 A. Well, this was part of our attempt to fully 17 mailing list attached to this letter, does that 18 communicate any information that was perceived to be of 18 indicate to you that this letter would have been 19 significance and might effect a customer out there so 19 forwarded to McGraw-Edison in Greenwood, South Carolina 20 we shared it with all of them not knowing exactly what 20 and McGraw-Edison in Canonsburg, Pennsylvania? 21 type of business they might be in. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Do you recall whether Monsanto's corporate 22 Q. Do you recognize Mr. -- from what you can 23 medical department put out information on the toxicity 23 read of it, do you recognize that as Mr. Potter's 24 of Aroclor 1016 after it was developed? 24 signature on the first page of this documents? Page 57 Page 60 1 A. Yes. 1 A. I do. 2 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 17 2 MR. RIPPERGER: Let's take a break, is 3 marked for identification.) 3 that all right? 4 Q. The court reporter has handed you what's been 4 MR. CHAMBERS: Oh, veah. 5 marked as Papageorge 17. I'd like you to take a moment 5 (Whereupon a lunch break was taken.) 6 and look at that. And let me know when you've had a 6 MR. RIPPERGER: Q. Good afternoon, 7 chance to do so, please. 7 Mr. Papageorge. 8 A. I have scanned the document. 8 A. Good afternoon. 9 Q. Have you seen this before? 9 Q. Did you ever have occasion to visit South 10 A. Yes, I have. 10 Milwaukee -- excuse me -- McGraw-Edison's facility in 11 Q. Do you know whether this was prepared by 11 South Milwaukee? 12 Monsanto's corporate medical department? 12 A. Yes. 13 A. It was. 13 Q. Can you tell me on how many occasions you had 14 Q. Do you know approximately when this was 14 an opportunity to visit that facility? 15 prepared by Monsanto s corporate medical department? 15 A. Just once. 16 A. The date is on the very bottom, 11-4-75. 16 Q. Do you recall approximately when that was? 17 Q. Based upon that do you believe that this 17 A. The summer of 1970. 18 document was generated by the Monsanto corporate 18 Q. Can you tell me how it was that you came 19 medical department in or around the November, '75 time 19 about visiting that facility. 20 frame? 20 A. We instituted a program where -- at the 21 A. Yes. 21 request of Mr. Don Olson. I arranged to visit the 22 Q. Was this document distributed to Monsanto's 22 manufacturing plant -- or some of the manufacturing 23 customers? 23 plants of customers who used PCB containing fluids in 24 A. Monsanto's customers of this Aroclor 1016? 24 the manufacture of electrical equipment and Page 58 Page 61 1 Q. Right. 1 McGraw-Edison was one of the customers who invited me 2 A. Yes. 2 to visit their South Milwaukee plant. 3 Q. Do you know -- do you recall at some point in 3 Q. What did you do when you visited the plant? 4 time that Monsanto ceased manufacturing all PCB 4 A. We had a meeting with the top manager at the 5 products? 5 site and his staff at which I would review the status 6 A. Yes. 6 of the pcb environmental issue. We would then be 7 Q. You recall approximately when that was? 7 escorted through the plant and where appropriate I 8 A. July, 1977. 8 would make some comments or they would ask questions 9 Q. Do you know an individual by the name of R.G. 9 that they thought I might be able to help them with so 10 Potter? 10 it was an exchange, really, of my perception of the PCB 11 A. Yes. 11 issue and their understanding of that issue and how it 12 Q. What was his position at Monsanto in that 12 might apply to the -- to their activities. 13 time frame, the one that you just referred to there 13 Q. Did you ever have occasion to visit the 14 when they ceased manufacturing PCB's, or PCB containing 14 McGraw-Edison plant in Canonsburg, Pennsylvania? 15 products 1 should say? 15 A.No. 16 A. Yes, he was the top Monsanto individual in 16 Q. Did you have occasion to visit any other 17 that part of Monsanto that was marketing the pcb 17 McGraw facilities other than the South Milwaukee 18 products. I have forgotten his exact title. It might 18 facility? 19 have been vice-president or a high level position. 19 A. No. 20 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 18 20 Q. Do you recall when you visited the South 21 marked for identification.) 21 Milwaukee facility, was there any type of report 22 Q. I've handed you what the court reporter has 22 prepared by Monsanto? 23 marked as Exhibit 18 which is a one-page letter with 23 A. Yes, as I remember there was a call report 24 the attached -- what appears to be a portion of a 24 made by Randall Graham who was my escort on this tour KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY Page 56 - Page 61 WATER PCB-SD0000070467 Multi-PageTM Page 62 Page 65 1 and there was -- because of that -- what I call a call 1 their scrap material prior to taking it to Krummrich 2 report is really the salesman report to the managers of 2 for incineration? 3 his visit and what he saw and accomplished. As a 3 A. I do not. 4 result of that call report there were follow-up 4 Q. Do you know whether Monsanto personnel ever 5 memoranda and communications with McGraw-Edison people 5 visited the McGraw-Edison South Milwaukee facility 6 but at the moment I don't recall the specifics. 6 after you had occasion to visit in this 1970 time 7 MR. RIPPERGER: can we take just a 7 frame? 8 couple minute break? I apologize but there's a 8 A. Yes, they did. 9 document here I'm missing. 9 Q. Can you tell me who had occasion to visit 10 (Whereupon a break was taken.) 10 South Milwaukee to the best of your recollection? 11 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 19 11 A. Mr. Randall Graham as best I recall. 12 marked for identification.) 12 Q. Was that -- did Mr. Graham conduct that 13 Q. The court reporter's handed Vou a one-page 13 second visit some time after you had visited in 1970? 14 document, it's a call report dated July 20, 1970. Is 14 A. Yes. 15 that the call report that you're referring to? 15 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Graham prepared some 16 A. This is it. 16 type of report when he conducted that visit at South 17 Q. You have an amazing memory. There's a 17 Milwaukee? 18 reference to W.B. Papageorge, that would have been you 18 A. Seems to me I recall a call report following 19 in this time frame? 19 that visit, yes. 20 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Any other type of report that you recall? 21 Q. There's a reference there in the middle of 21 A. By Mr. Graham? 22 the page, "W. Papageorge commitments," do you see that? 22 Q. Any type of report regarding a site 23 A. Ido. 23 inspection at South Milwaukee -- not site inspection 24 Q. Were those items that you were to undertake 24 but a site visit at South Milwaukee? Page 63 Page 66 1 after this visit to the South Milwaukee plant? 1 A. I don't recall any. 2 A. That's what Mr. Graham thought should happen, 2 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 20 3 yes. 3 marked for identification.) 4 Q. Mr. Graham being the person who prepared this 4 Q. Exhibit 20 the court reporter has handed you 5 call report? 5 and it's a multi-page document beginning with BATES 6 A. Yes. 6 stamp mge 000373 through 000404 entitled "Monsanto 7 Q. He's indicated there in the ripper right where 7 Industrial Chemicals Company Visit At South 8 it says salesman, Randall Graham? 8 Milwaukee" -- excuse me -- "McGraw-Edison Company, 9 A. Correct. 9 South Milwaukee, Wisconsin, August, 1972." Have you 10 q. Did you, in deed,undertake to perform these 10 had a chance to just page through this, Mr. Papageorge? 11 five tasks that are set forth here to the best of your 11 A. As I scan this document I'm reminded of the 12 recollection? 12 time it was made available. 13 A. Best of my recollection some of that I did 13 Q. Do you recall this document being prepared by 14 personally, some of it I assigned to others to do. 14 Monsanto in or around the August, 1972 time frame? 15 Q. The third item there, "letter on plant clean 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 up," do you know whether that was done? 16 Q. Do you know who prepared it? 17 A. I know I had a two or three-page document 17 A. I am having a hard time recalling that. 18 that covered that subject and as best I recall that was 18 Q. At any rate, is it your understanding that 19 shared with McGraw-Edison, but I don't recall whether 19 someone at Monsanto prepared this regarding a visit to 20 it was a direct mailing or whether it was sent to 20 South Milwaukee? 21 Mr. Graham to deliver. 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. What was that document? You say a two or 22 Q. I'd like to point your attention to what has 23 three-page document. 23 been BATES stamped Page Number 397. 24 A. It was a two or three-page recommended 24 A. I have it. Page 64 Page 67 1 procedures for cleaning up a plant or preventing it 1 Q. There's a reference there to various 2 from getting dirty. I forget all the detail, where to 2 Aroclors, do you see that reference? 3 go with waste, what kina of facilities to look for. 3 A. I do. 4 Q. There's a reference on the bottom of this 4 Q. The first reference there is Aroclor 1254 and 5 call report that we've marked as Exhibit 19 that 5 it says major use period 1930 to 1952. To the best of 6 there's an estimate of 72,000 pounds per year of scrap 6 your understanding does that reflect the years that 7 material returned to W.G.K. for incineration. Do you 7 Aroclor 1254 was produced by Monsanto? 8 see that reference? 8 A. I interpret the period 1930, 1952 9 A. I do. 9 representing the period of time during which that 10 Q. Is W.G.K. -- is that the Krummrich facility 10 particular Aroclor 1254 was used in capacitors. 11 in Sauget? 11 Q. Right. Okay. Do you know -- well -- and 12 A. Yes. 12 then the second reference there, Aroclor 1242, '52 to 13 Q. And that's the facility that that's referring 13 '71. Again, does that represent that that's the years 14 to? 14 that Aroclor 1242 was used in capacitors? 15 A. Yes. 15 A. Yes. 16 q. Do you have a recollection that McGraw-Edison 16 Q. Do you know whether Monsanto -- well, strike 17 was generating 72,000 pounds of scrap per year in that 17 that. And then beginning Aroclor 1016, October,'71, 18 time frame when you visited the site in that time 18 do you see that reference? 19 frame. 19 A. Yes. 20 MR. HENSLER: objection. Lacks 20 Q. Does that purport with your memory as to when 21 foundation. 21 Aroclor 1016 began to be used? 22 A. I don't recall the exact number but I recall 22 A. Yes. 23 that it was a respectable amount of material. 23 Q. I'm sorry if I already asked you this but I 24 Q. Do you know what McGraw-Edison was doing with 24 can't remember the answer because it was in the very KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY Page 62 - Page 67 WATER PCB-SD0000070468 Multi-PageTM Page 68 1 beginning of the deposition. When you worked at the 1 Q. And the wording is similar to what you see 2 J.F. Queeny plant, what was the nature of the business 2 here on these warnings? Page 71 3 at that plant? 4 A. Oh, they made over a hundred different 5 chemicals. I don't know how else to describe it, 6 it's -- 7 Q. Did they make anything containing PCB's? 8 A. They mixed various ingredients, one of them 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And, again, you had occasion to observe these 5 types of warnings on containers of Aroclor 1254 the 6 entire time that you worked at the J.F. Queeny plant? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And you worked at the J.F. Queeny plant from 9 being PCB's in the formulation of products that were 10 shipped out of that plant. They were a blending 11 station. 12 Q. Was Aroclor 1242 ever shipped out of that 13 plant? 9 '51 to '64? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. When you worked there after the Krummrich 12 facility up until you became manager of environmental 13 control, do you recall seeing containers of Aroclor 14 A. Not as Aroclor 1242. 15 Q. Did you have occasion to see containers of 16 Aroclor 1242 when you worked at the J.F. Queeny plant? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Did the containers of Aroclor 1242 that you 19 had occasion to observe when you worked at the J.F. 20 Queeny plant, did they have some type of warning label 21 on them to the best of your recollection? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Do you know what it said? 24 A. It referred to prolonged breathing of vapors 14 1242 and 1254? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. And, again, during that timeframe did they 17 contain warning labels similar to what we've marked as 18 Exhibits 21 and 22? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Do you know whether -- when you worked at the 21 J.F. Queeny plant whether there was m existence a 22 manual regarding the proper handling of Aroclors and 23 their mixtures? 24 A. I recall information regarding the proper Page 69 Page 72 1 and to prolonged exposure to skin and also caution to 1 handling; I don't recall the specific manual, however. 2 avoid both of those situations. 2 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 23 3 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 21 3 marked for identification.) 4 marked for identification.) 4 Q. Before I ask you about Exhibit 23 I'd like to 5 Q. The court reporter has handed you what was 5 back up. Aroclor 1242 and 1254, were they known as -- 6 marked as Papageorge Exhibit 21. Is this the warning 6 generically as Askarel? 7 label that you recall seeing on containers of Aroclor 7 A. When used in electrical equipment they were 8 1242 when you worked at the J.F. Queeny plant? 8 referred to as Askarels. 9 A. Well, this is the wording. 9 Q. And would that have been true in the '50's 10 Q. This is the wording of the warning? 10 and '60's? 11 A. As best I recall, yes, sir. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. As best you recall was this wording on the 12 Q. Exhibit 23, have you seen this before? 13 warnings on containers of Aroclor 1242 the entire time 13 A. Yes, I have. 14 that you worked at the J.F. Queeny plant? 14 Q. When did you have occasion to see this? 15 A. Yes, sir. 15 A. When I was at the J.F. Queeny plant. As best 16 Q. Did you ever have occasion to see containers 16 I remember this was the 1963, '64 period, the electric 17 of Aroclor 1254? 17 distribution system in the plant reported to me. That 18 A. At that point in time? 18 system had included in it equipment that contained PCB 19 Q. Yes. 19 type materials. This exhibit was available to the 20 A. At the Queeny plant experience? 20 managers of that operation so they could teach their 21 Q. Yes. 21 electrical mechanics and so on on how to respect these 22 A. Yes. 22 kind of materials and how to handle them. 23 Q. Did you ever have occasions tosee containers 23 Q. Do you know whether this manual was provided 24 of Aroclor, either 1242or 1254 prior to the time that 24 to any of Monsanto's customers? Page 70 Page 73 1 you became employed with Monsanto in the 1951 time 1 A. Oh, yes, that was the intent. 2 frame? 2 Q. The intent was to provide this manual to 3 A. No. 3 customers? 4 Q. You did have, however, occasion to see 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 containers of Aroclor 1254 when you worked at the J.F. 5 Q. So if MeGraw-Edison had been a customer of 6 Queeny plant? 6 Monsanto in the 1963 time frame or so they would have 7 A. Yes. 7 received a copy of this manual? 8 Q. Didthose containershave warningson them 8 A. Yes. 9 also? 9 MR. HENSLER: I'll object to the form of 10 A. Yes. 10 the question. 11 Q. Wasthe warning similar to the onethat we've 11 A. The reason I hesitate, this manual was 12 marked here as Exhibit 21, the warning on Aroclor 1242? 12 periodically revised. 13 A. Yes. 13 Q. Right. 14 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 22 14 A. At the momentI don't recall if by '63 a 15 marked for identification.) 15 revision of this particular 1960 version was available. 16 Q. The court reporter has handed you what we've 16 Q. Okay. 17 marked as Exhibit 22, Papageorge Exhibit 22. Is this 17 A. But they would have received, as a matter of 18 the warning label -- there's two pages, actually, a 18 business, the latest version of this bulletin. 19 label and then another warning ''Caution, contains 19 Q. Can you please turn to Page 98 of the manual 20 chlorinated hydrocarbons." Do you recall seeing 20 which is BATES stamped MGE 002567 and, for the record, 21 warning labels such as what's reflected in this exhibit 21 the entire document is BATES stamped MGE 002463 through 22 on containers of Aroclor 1254 when you worked at the 22 2576. With respect to Chapter 12 here which comprises 23 J.F. Queeny plant? 23 of Pages 98, 99 and 100, can you tell me what the 24 A. I recall the wording. 24 purpose of this section of the manual was? KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY Page 68 - Page 73 WATER PCB-SD0000070469 Multi-PageTM Page 74 Page 77 1 A. Is to share with the users of the Aroclor 1 for use in electrical equipment. 2 products the proper way they should be handled to avoid 2 Q. Would that have included Aroclor? 3 possible harm to skin or the chest from inhalation and 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 so on. 4 Q. Do you know whether this memo from Mr. Kelly 5 Q. And that's what's reflected here in this 5 was distributed to Monsanto's customers? 6 chapter? 6 A. Yes. 7 A. Yes. 7 Q. It was? 8 Q. Can you tell me what Pydraul is, or was I 8 A. It was. 9 should say in the '60's? 9 Q. Do you know what a material safety data sheet 10 A. Did you say Pydraul? 10 is? 11 Q. Pydraul. 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 A. That is a trademark that Monsanto used on its 12 Q. Can you tell me what your understanding is 13 fluids used in industrial hydraulic systems. 13 of - I'll call it an msds, is that okay? 14 Q. Do you recall when you became manager of 14 A. Yes, sir, very good. 15 environmental control in the 1970 time frame whether 15 Q. Can you tell me what your understanding of an 16 containers of Aroclor contained warning labels? 16 MSDS is? 17 A. Yes. 17 A. This is a form used by the Occupational 18 Q. Do you recall a warning label being generated 18 Safety and Health Agency on which data regarding the 19 in that time frame that referred to the potential 19 material being described is included relating to its 20 impact of PCB's on the environment? 20 physical appearance, its potential safety problems if 21 A. Yes. 21 misused, and by the safety problems I mclude not only 22 Q. Did you have any role in preparing that 22 health effects but also danger of explosion and fire, 23 warning label? 23 that type of information. 24 A. Yes, I did. 24 Q. When you were manager of environmental Page 75 Page 78 1 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 24 1 control in the 1971 time frame, did you have occasion 2 marked for identification.) 2 to see an msds for Aroclor 1242? 3 Q. Okay. The court reporter has handed you what 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 we've marked as Papageorge Exhibit 24. Do you recognize 4 Q. How would it have been that you would have 5 that exhibit? 5 had occasion to see that document? 6 A. I do. 6 A. I was one of the authors. 7 Q. Is that the warning label that was developed 7 Q. That's a pretty good reason. 8 in the 1970 time frame? 8 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 26 9 A. Yes. 9 marked for identification.) 10 Q. Can you tell me why it was that you included 10 Q. I've handed you what the court reporter has 11 a notification of possible environmental contaminant 11 marked as Papageorge Exhibit 26 which is a material 12 problems on Aroclor warning labels in the 1970 time 12 safety data sheet dated May, 1971 in the upper 13 frame. 13 right-hand comer, an indication of an expiration -- 14 A. We thought it would be prudent to advise the 14 I'm sorry, were you going to say something? 15 user of the material of the need to keep it from 15 A. The date you're reading, sir, has to do with 16 getting into the environment and we felt that this was 16 the OSHA form adoption of May, '71. 17 one good way to make certain that the user of the 17 Q. Okay. 18 material would read it on the label, at least be 18 A. The other date is when that approval expires. 19 reminded if he hadn't seen a previous notification. 19 Q. Right. 20 Q. Do you know an individual by the name of R. 20 A. The date of this particular Monsanto data is 21 Emmett Kelly? 21 on the bottom of the second page. 22 A. Yes. 22 Q. 1-24-72? 23 Q. Was he at Monsanto in the '71 time frame? 23 A. Correct. 24 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. Thank you for pointing that out. Is Page 76 Page 79 1 Q. What was his position there? 1 this the material safety data sheet that you had 2 A. He was the corporate medical director. 2 participation in authoring in the 1972 time frame? 3 Q. Do you recall ever seeing a memo drafted -- 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 well, strike that. 4 Q. Did you actually author this? 5 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 25 5 A. Well, I was one of the contributors. 6 marked for identification.) 6 Q. Right. 7 Q. The court reporter has handed you what's been 7 A. There's a series of three letter initials 8 marked as Papageorge Exhibit 25. Have you seen this 8 across the bottom of the left-hand comer of the second 9 before? 9 page. 10 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. Okay. 11 Q. Do you recall seeing it in or around the 1971 11 A. My initials are the last set, W.B.P. 12 time frame? 12 Q. Great. Thank you. There's a reference in 13 A. Yes, sir. 13 the top there -- it's difficult to read but the second 14 Q. Was this something that was distributed by 14 line, I believe it says "Effect of overexposure" right 15 Mr. Kelly? 15 above the word skin irritation? 16 A. Yes. 16 A. Oh the second page? 17 Q. Do you recognize that as hissignature there? 17 Q. Yes, I'm sorry. 18 A. I do. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. There's a reference here toAskarel, the 19 Q. Is that "Effect of overexposure"? 20 toxicity and safe handling of Askarel, do you see that? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 A. Ido. 21 Q. There's a reference there to skin irritation 22 Q. What would have Askarel been in the 1971 time 22 in the form of chloracne? 23 frame? 23 A. Yes. 24 A. It would have been a fluid containing PCB's 24 Q. Can you tell me what that refers to? KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY Page 74 - Page 79 WATER PCB-SD0000070470 Multi-PageTM Page 80 Page 83 1 A. This is an acne condition similar to teenage 1 A. Not the one marked as Exhibit 27. 2 acne but it's generated by exposure to some chemicals 2 Q. I'm sorry, a prior version of that one. 3 that contain chlorine, that's where the word chlor 3 A. Yes. 4 comes from, so it's a chlorine activated acne from 4 Q. It would have been a copy of it at the 5 overexposure. 5 Krummrich plant? 6 Q. That is a condition that could have been 6 A. Yes. 7 caused by overexposure of Aroclor in the 1972 time 7 Q. Do you know whether this manual or any 8 frame? 8 manuals that preceded it were distributed to Monsanto 9 A. Yes, sir. 9 customers? 10 Q. And that's what was being conveyed here? 10 A. Definitely, yes. 11 A. Yes. 11 Q. When you were at the J.F. Queeny plant, do 12 Q. The next reference is to systemic 12 you know whether there was a prior version of this 13 intoxication. Do you see that reference after 13 manual at that plant? 14 chloracne? 14 A. Definitely, yes. 15 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. And, again, was the prior version of this 16 Q. What does that mean, systemic intoxication? 16 manual, would that have been distributed to Monsanto's 17 MR. HENSLER: objection. I think it 17 customers? 18 says systematic. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. I'm sorry.Systematic intoxication. What 19 Q. I'd like to back up just a moment to Exhibit 20 does that mean? 20 24 which is the Aroclor warning label that you 21 A. I'll give you my understanding. It could 21 testified briefly about. I believe you indicated that 22 lead to internal damage and primarily centers on the 22 this warning label was created in or around the 1970 23 liver but it does effect other parts of the body 23 time frame? 24 internally. 24 A. Yes, sir. Page 81 Page 84 1 Q. Is that from inhalation? 1 Q. And was this warning label on containers of 2 A. Well, either inhalation or ingestion or 2 Aroclor that were sold to Monsanto's customers? 3 through the skin. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Sure. And that's what was being conveyed 4 Q. Do you know whether the shipping invoices in 5 here? 5 this time frame contained any warning labels? 6 A. Yes, that's the intent. 6 A. As best I remember in the latter part of 1970 7 Q. Do you know whether these material safety - 7 that environmental paragraph appeared on shipping 8 this material safety data sheet and others like it were 8 documents. 9 provided to Monsanto's customers? 9 Q. When you say the latter part of that warning 10 A. Yes. 10 label, are you referring to the portion of the warning 11 Q. They were? 11 label that refers to environmental contamination? 12 A. Yes. 12 A. I thought I used the word latter -- the 13 Q. When you were at Monsanto as the manager of 13 latter part of 1970. 14 product acceptability in the mid-seventies, do you 14 Q. Okay. 15 recall there being a guide entitled "Transformer 15 A. This paragraph was introduced in about May 16 Askarel Inspection and Maintenance Guide"? 16 of '70, incorporated on the label per se. It was an 17 A. Yes, sir. 17 addition stick-on label and was incorporated in the 18 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 27 18 whole label in the -- as shown here September 30, 1970. 19 marked for identification.) 19 Q. Okay. 20 Q. The court reporter has handed you what's 20 A. And the paragraph that includes this kind of 21 marked as Exhibit 27, and I know it's lengthy but I'd 21 information - 22 just like you to take a look at it briefly ana let me 22 Q. Environmental information. 23 Know if you've had a chance to see this before, if you 23 A. - was eventually printed on the shipping 24 have had an opportunity to see this document before. 24 documents the latter part of that year. I don't know Page 82 Page 85 1 A. Yes, I have. 1 if it was November or October, some time in the latter 2 Q. It's dated in the front right page up there, 2 part of'70. 3 it says "Revised, March 1975," do you see that 3 Q. When you say "this paragraph" you're 4 reference? 4 referring to the paragraph that refers to environmental 5 A. I do. 5 contamination? 6 Q. Do you know whether this guide was available 6 A. Correct. 7 when you were at Monsanto Industrial Chemical in or 7 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 28 8 around the 1975 time frame? 8 marked for identification.) 9 A. Yes. 9 Q. The court reporter has handed you what we've 10 Q. It was? 10 marked as Exhibit 28. It is a one-page document, says 11 A. Yes. 11 date shipped 9-18-72, bates stamped mge 00415. My 12 Q. Do you know whether there were any earlier 12 question, Mr. Papageorge, do you recognize this form? 13 editions of this guide? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 A. Yes, there were. 14 Q. Okay. Can you tell me whatthis is? 15 Q. When you began at the Krummrich plant in the 15 A. We used to call it a bill of lading. I don't 16 mid-sixties, was this guide -- a prior version of this 16 know what the official designation for it is. It's to 17 guide available? 17 provide information during a shipment. 18 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. Is it also known as an invoice, did you ever 19 MR. HENSLER: I'm going to object to the 19 refer to it as that? 20 vagueness of the term available. 20 A. No, the invoice at Monsanto actually has the 21 Q. Well, when you were - when you began at the 21 word invoice on it and -- 22 Krummrich plant in the '64 time frame, was this Askarel 22 Q. This was known as a bill of lading? 23 Inspection Maintenance Guide that we marked as Exhibit 23 A. To the best of my recollection. The invoice 24 27, did it exist at the Krummrich plant? 24 also shows dollars, cost. KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY Page 80 - Page 85 WATER PCB-SD0000070471 Multi-PageTM Page 86 Page 89 1 Q. Did the bills of lading -- well, when a bill 1 Carolina. Do you see that reference in the middle of 2 of lading was generated in the 1972 time frame, was 2 the page there? 3 that bill of lading forwarded on to the customer? 3 A. I do, yes. _ 4 A. Eventually it arrived, yes. They got copies. 4 Q. Do you have any recollection of there being a 5 Q. Did the bills of lading have the warning 5 McGraw-Edison facility in Greenwood, South Carolina? 6 label that we see here in the middle of this bill of 6 A. I do, I've heard of them. 7 lading? 7 Q. There's a reference -- oh, I see. I'm just 8 A. Yes. Starting, as I mentioned earlier, as 8 trying to distinguish what the difference is between 9 best I recall, late seventies it was added. 9 the two entities that are identified on Exhibit 28 and 10 Q. When you say late seventies, you mean late 10 29. If you'll turn back to 28,1 guess the top entity 11 1970? 11 identified, it says "sold to," do you see that? 12 A. Correct. 12 A. I do. 13 Q. There's a signature on this bill of lading 13 Q. Okay. Does that indicate to you that that's 14 down in the bottom right there. It looks like an EE - 14 the entity that the materials that are reflected in IS I can't quite make it out but it looks like Meyer. Do 15 this bill of lading were sold to? 16 you see that? 16 A. Sold to, yes. 17 A. Yes. 17 Q. And then the "shipped to" would have been the 18 Q. Do you recognize that? 18 facility where the products were actually shipped to? 19 A. I do not. 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. Was there a person at Monsanto in the '72 20 Q. Got it. So in this Exhibit 29 the materials 21 time frame namedMeyer to the best of your 21 that are reflected in this bill of lading would have 22 recollection? 22 been sold to McGraw-Edison, South Milwaukee but shipped 23 A. Well, I know of a Don Meyer but the initials 23 to McGraw-Edison in Greenwood, South Carolina? 24 mislead me here. 24 A. Correct. Page 87 Page 90 1 Q. Sure. 1 Q. Do you have any understanding as to why a 2 A. I don't know. 2 product that would have been sold to McGraw-Edison in 3 Q. Is this document on the bill of lading form 3 South Milwaukee would have been shipped to 4 that was used in Monsanto in the 1972 time frame? 4 McGraw-Edison in Greenwood, South Carolina? 5 A. Yes. 5 A. I have an understanding. 6 Q. Do you know whether the warning that's 6 Q. What is your understanding? 7 indicated here, was that a label of some type that you 7 A. The entity shown as a "sola to" is the one 8 recall in the '72 time frame or was that typed onto the 8 that placed the order and directed the shipment to 9 bill of lading to the best of your recollection? 9 arrive at another destination. Later the invoicing 10 A. Best of my recollection this was stamped. 10 will go to the "sold to" party. 11 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 29 11 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 30 12 marked for identification.) 12 marked for identification.) 13 Q. Do you know a person by the name of A. Jones 13 Q. The court reporter's handed you what's been 14 that worked at Monsanto in the '72, '73 time frame? 14 marked as Papageorge Exhibit 30. Can you tell me what 15 A. I do not. 15 this document is? 16 Q. I'm going to show you what the court reporter 16 A. This is a copy of an invoice for material 17 has marked as Exhibit 29. Is this document another 17 delivered to McGraw-Edison in Greenwood, South Carolina. 18 example of a bill of lading that would have been used 18 Q. What's the difference between what we marked 19 by Monsanto in the '72 time frame? 19 as 30 being an invoice and what we marked as 28 and 29, 20 A. It appears to be, yes, sir. 20 the bills of lading? What different purpose did they 21 Q. You see that there's a warning in the middle 21 serve? 22 there - 22 A. Well, one accompanies a shipment and 23 A. Yes. 23 designates the tank car number, the weight of the 24 Q. -- regardingpolychlorinated biphenyls? 24 material. Page 88 Page 91 1 A. I see that. 1 Q. That being the bill of lading? 2 Q. Okay. You see that the warning on Exhibit 2 A. Yes. 3 29, the wording is -- the typing is different than that 3 Q. Okay. 4 of 28? 4 A. Where as Exhibit 30 not only shows the amount 5 A. Yes. 5 of material, the weight of the material but also shows 6 Q. Do you have any recollection as to how it 6 the cost of that material and it's intended for the 7 came about that different labels were used? 7 customer to pay the bill so to speak. 8 A. Different warning labels. The stamp I had 8 Q. The bill of lading that we marked as Exhibits 9 mentioned earlier is represented by what we see on 9 28 and 29, did the bill of lading actually go with the 10 Exhibit 29. 10 shipment of the product? 11 Q. Okay. 11 A. A copy goes with the shipment and a copy goes 12 A. The same wording that we see on Exhibit 28 12 also to the "sold to" and "shipped to". 13 appears to have been typed on that particular bill of 13 Q. Okay. And the bill then -- after the 14 lading. 14 shipment then the invoice would be sent to the person 15 Q. At any rate, Exhibit 29 is the stamp that you 15 who placed the order? 16 were referring to earlier? 16 A. Correct. 17 A. That is correct. 17 Q. Did the invoices that were sent by McGraw to 18 Q. Okay. And that was put on all bills of 18 its customers contain a warning, an environmental PCB 19 lading that were sent out with respect to products that 19 warning similar to what we see on Exhibit 30? 20 had polychlorinated biphenyls at least as of starting 20 MR. CHAMBERS: Let me object to the 21 in the late 1970's? 21 form. I think you referred to McGraw again instead of 22 A. To the best of my recollection, yes. 22 Monsanto. 23 Q. There's a reference on Exhibit 29 to 23 MR. RIPPERGER: I did, I'm sorry. 24 McGraw-Edison Power Systems Division in Greenwood, South 24 MR. CHAMBERS: That's okay. KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY Page 86 - Page 91 WATER PCB-SD0000070472 Multi-PageTM Page 92 Page 95 1 MR. RIPPERGER: Q. Did the invoices 1 this memorandum? 2 that were sent to Monsanto's customers contain the 2 A. I do. 3 warning regarding PCB's as is reflected in Exhibit 30? 3 Q. Is that the same visit that you recall 4 A. Well, that is a copy of an invoice that went 4 someone from McGraw -- 5 to the customer -- 5 A. Yes, that's the one I thought took place in 6 Q. Right. 6 1972. 7 A. -- and the statement is typed on there. 7 Q. But you believe in reviewing this that it 8 Q. Right. Do you have a recollection that the 8 took place in '74? 9 statement or the warning was put on invoices as well as 9 A. Yes. 10 bills of lading? 10 Q. And there's an indication there in the first 11 A. Yes. 11 sentence of a James Butner, Manager of Engineering of 12 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 31 12 Sangamo Electric in Pickens, South Carolina, do you see 13 marked for identification.) 13 that reference? 14 Q. Before I ask you about Exhibit 31, just 14 A. I see that. 15 turning back to Exhibit 30, is that invoice - is that 15 Q. Does that at all refresh your recollection as 16 the invoice form that was used by Monsanto in or around 16 to where the McGraw representative was from in that 17 the 1973 time frame? 17 visit? 18 A. Yes. 18 A. No, I don't know that it refreshes my 19 Q. Exhibit 31, is that an exanrole of an invoice 19 recollection. I just don't remember so-- 20 form that would have been used by Monsanto in and 20 Q. Okay. But at any rate you do recall 21 around the 1976 timeframe? 21 receiving a copy of this memo in or around the '74 time 22 A. Yes. 22 frame? 23 Q. Does thisinvoice reflect ashipmentofpcb 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 containing materials to McGraw-Edison? 24 Q. And this is on Monsanto interoffice Page 93 Page 96 1 A. Yes. 1 memorandum stationery? 2 Q. And, again, the invoice contains the same 2 A. Yes. 3 warning that was on the previous invoice that we looked 3 Q. This document apparently appears to be 4 at? 4 drafted by an Elliott Shimley. Was there a Mr. Shimley 5 A. Correct. 5 at Monsanto in the '74 time frame? 6 Q. Do you know an individual by the name of 6 A. Yes. 7 James Bryant? 7 Q. What was his position? 8 A. Yes. 8 A. I associate Mr. Shimley with the marketing 9 Q. Was he at Monsanto in the 1970 time frame? 9 function but I just don't remember anymore about that 10 A. Yes, sir. 10 assignment. He was a marketing representative. 11 Q. Do you have an understanding of what Askarel 11 Q. Okay. I believe you indicated earlier that 12 1488-P is or was, I should say, in tne 1970 time frame? 12 at some point in time -- well, before I ask you that, 13 A. I don't remember specifically the chemical. 13 let me ask you this. Did you ever have occasion to 14 I do remember it was one of the materials that Monsanto 14 contact anybody or have any conversations with anyone 15 was testing as an alternative to PCB's. That's all I 15 at McGraw's Canonsburg, Pennsylvania facility? 16 recall at the moment. 16 A. No. 17 MR. RIPPERGER: Let's take a five minute 17 Q. I believe you indicated earlier that Aroclor 18 break. 18 1016 was developed by Monsanto to replace Aroclor 1242? 19 (Whereupon a break was taken.) 19 A. Yes. 20 MR. RIPPERGER: Back on the record. Q. 20 Q. And you believe that that was done in or 21 Do you recall, Mr. Papageorge, whether anybody from the 21 around the 1971 time frame? 22 McGraw-Edison facility came to visit people in your 22 A. Yes. 23 offices in Monsanto in St. Louis? 23 Q. Customers that purchased Aroclor 1016, were 24 A. Yes, I do. 24 those customers previously using Aroclor 1242? Page 94 Page 97 1 Q. Do you recall that such a visit happened? 1 A. Yes. 2 A. Yes. 2 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 33 3 Q. Can you recall who it was from McGraw that 3 marked for identification.) 4 visited St. Louis? 4 Q. The court reporter has handed you what we've 5 A. No, I don't remember names. 5 marked as Papageorge Exhibit 33. Ifd like you to take 6 Q. Do you recall the person that visited your 6 a moment to review that. Let me know when you've had a 7 plant -- did you say that you recalled that they were 7 chance to do so. While you're doing that, for the 8 from the South Milwaukee plant? Do you recall which 8 record Exhibit 33 is a one-page letter to McGraw-Edison 9 plant they were from? 9 customers from a R.H. Draeger. 10 A. That's my best recollection, yes, sir. 10 A. I have read the exhibit. 11 Q. Do you recall approximately when that was? 11 Q. Okay. There's a reference there in the 12 A. 1972. 12 second paragraph to a Monsanto Chemical Company 13 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 32 13 developing what they've characterized as MCS 1016, do 14 marked for identification.) 14 you see that reference? 15 Q. Court reporter's handed you what she's marked 15 A. I do. 16 as Papageorge Exhibit 32. Can you take a look at that, 16 Q. To your understanding would that be referring 17 please, and let me know when you've had a chance just 17 to the Aroclor 1016? 18 to briefly look it over. Have you seen Exhibit 32 18 A. It does. 19 before? 19 Q. There's a reference in the first paragraph, 20 A. Yes, I have. 20 the second sentence refers to a "pcb compound commonly 21 Q. Do you recall receiving it in or around the 21 called Askarel or by various trade names," do you see 22 1974 time frame? 22 that reference? 23 A. Yes. 23 A. I do. 24 Q. Do you recall this visit that's described in 24 Q. The PCB compound commonly called Askarel, KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY Page 92 - Page 97 WATER PCB-SD0000070473 Multi-PageTM Page 98 Page 101 1 would that have included Aroclor 1016? 1 wondering, did Monsanto then get out of the dielectric 2 A. Yes, sir. 2 fluids market? 3 Q. And would that have included Aroclor 1242 3 A. Yes. 4 before Aroclor 1016? 4 Q. Let's go off the record. 5 A. That is correct. 5 (Whereupon an off-the-record 6 Q. And would that have included Aroclor 1254 6 discussion was held.) 7 prior to the development of Aroclor 1242? 7 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 35 8 MR. hensler: I'm going to object to the 8 marked for identification.) 9 form of the question. I'm not sure whether you're 9 Q. When you began your employment at the J.F. 10 asking him whether the word Askarel as used in this 10 Queeny plant, do you know whether there was a manual of 11 letter includes all of those are whether you're asking 11 some sort regarding the safe handling and use of 12 a general question about the generic term Askarel. 12 Aroclor 1248? 13 MR. RIPPERGER: Okay. Q. When Aroclor 13 A. Did I know at that time? 14 1254 was being manufactured by Monsanto, was it 14 Q. Yes. 15 commonly called Askarel? 15 A. I was not aware until about 1963 -- 16 A. Yes. 16 Q. Right. And you -- 17 Q. And when 1242 was being manufactured was it 17 A. -- about such a manual. 18 commonly called Askarel? 18 q. Right. And you told me that in relation to 19 A. Yes. 19 our review of Exhibit 23, which is the manual dated 20 Q. And,again, when Monsanto was manufacturing 20 January, 1960? 21 Aroclor 1016, that was also commonly called Askarel? 21 A. Correct. 22 A. Yes. 22 Q. I'm going to show you what the court reporter 23 Q.Can youtell me what Mr. Bergen's 23 has marked as Exhibit Number 35 and ask you to take a 24 responsibilities were in and around the 1972 time frame 24 look at that and let me know when you've had a chance Page 99 Page 102 1 at Monsanto? 1 to do so. For the record, it's a multimage document 2 A. He was the director of the business group 2 bates stamped MGE 002577 through 2589 entitled 3 responsible for the marketing of the fluids used in 3 "Aroclor, a Nonflammable Hydraulic Fluid for 4 industrial systems. 4 Die-casting Systems, Monsanto's Technical Bulletin 5 Q. I'm going to back up, briefly, to Exhibit 13 5 Number P-137, March 28, 1949". 6 which is the two-page nonwaiver agreement signed by -- 6 A. I have scanned through the document. 7 I believe you saia that was Mr. Cunningham? 7 Q. Have you seen this before? 8 A. Correct. 8 A. I have, yes, sir. 9 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 34 9 Q. Do you recall on what occasion how it was 10 marked for identification.) 10 that you had a chance to see this? 11 Q. For the record Exhibit 13 is bates stamped 11 A. As best I recall I saw this particular 12 000261 through 268 and what we've marked as Exhibit 34 12 bulletin some time between 1965 and 1970. 13 is a one-page letter from a Mr. Renberg to a Mr. Bergen 13 Q. Okay. Did you have an understanding as to 14 of Monsanto dated January 12, 1972, the same date as 14 what the purpose of this bulletin was? 15 Exhibit 13, and, for the record, Exhibit 34 is bates 15 A. Yes. 16 stamped 000269 which is sequentially the next number 16 Q. What was your understanding? 17 after the nonwaiver letter that we marked as Exhibit 17 A. This was to promote the use of the Aroclor 18 13. My question is, do you believe, based upon your 18 1248 product for use in hydraulic -- as a hydraulic 19 knowledge of what was conducted in the 1972 time frame, 19 fluid m hydraulic systems, this particular one being 20 that what we've marked as Exhibit 34 would have been 20 die-casting systems. 21 the cover letter forwarding the nonwaiver agreement to 21 Q. So Aroclor 1248 would have been a hydraulic 22 Monsanto? 22 fluid of some sort? 23 A. That's my understanding, yes, sir. 23 A. This was a proposed use for that material, 24 Q. And the addressee of the letter that we've 24 yes. Page 100 Page 103 1 marked as Exhibit 34 being Mr. Bergen, is that who 1 Q. Aroclor 1254, that was a product that was 2 would have received the nonwaiver agreement in the '72 2 used in dielectric systems; is that -- 3 time frame? 3 A. It was. 4 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. Okay. And 1242 wasa dielectric Aroclor? 5 Q. And is that his address in the '72 time 5 A. Yes. 6 frame? 6 Q. Okay.Just what I'm wondering, 1248 wouldn't 7 A. Yes, sir. 7 have been necessarily dielectric, it would have been 8 Q. Thank you. And I believe you indicated 8 hydraulic? Is that a fair distinction or not? 9 earlier that at some point in time it was your 9 A. I don't want to mislead you, that's why I'm 10 understanding that Monsanto ceased manufacturing of 10 trying to think this out. 11 products containing pcb's? 11 Q. Sure. 12 A. I did. 12 A. This does not mean that the 1242 and the 1254 13 Q. And, I'm sorry, I know you told me when that 13 were not used in hydraulic systems. 14 was but I can't recall what you indicated. 14 Q. Sure, I understand. 15 A. July, 1977. 15 A. I don't recall 1248 as such being used in 16 Q. Do you have any understanding as to why 16 electrical systems. 17 Monsanto quit making products that contained pcb's? 17 Q. Thatrs all I have, thank you very much, but 18 A. It's primarily because they understood from 18 Mr. Hensler will probably have some questions here for 19 its key customers of dielectric fluids that alternative 19 you. 20 design methods and fluids had been developed whereby 20 CROSS-EXAMINATION 21 the need for pcb's was not as great, therefore they 21 BY MR. HENSLER: 22 could phase out of that use so Monsanto decided that 22 Q. Thank you for your patience, Mr. Papageorge. 23 they would no longer participate in that market. 23 We met this morning, my name's Louis Hensler. 24 Q. So I guess that was one thing that I was 24 A. Okay. KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY Page 98 - Page 103 WATER PCB-SD0000070474 Multi-PageTM Page 104 Page 107 1 Q. I'm an associate with the law firm of Jones, 1 1254 or 1260," then the second fact says "PCB's with a 2 Day, Reavis & Pogue and we represent McGraw-Edison in 2 chlorine content of less than 54 percent have not been 3 this case. This morning you gave some testimony about 3 found in the environment and appear to present no 4 a series of letters from Monsanto to Monsanto customers 4 potential problem to the environment." 5 discussing the potentiality of environmental pollution 5 I know I read a good bit there. Did I go over 6 by PCB's. Do you remember that testimony this morning? 6 that accurately as far as you could tell? 7 A. I do. 7 A. You did. 8 Q. I want to ask you generally about those 8 Q. And let me ask you for a clarification. Is 9 letters. First of all, was Monsanto's communication 9 this letter -- those two facts when taken in 10 with its customers on that subject accomplished 10 conjunction, does that indicate that the list of 11 principally through those letters? 11 products that I read under fact one at least at that 12 A. 1 don't know that it was principally through 12 time were not considered by Monsanto to present a 13 the letters. This was one of the ways. The other 13 potential problem to the environment? 14 approach that we felt was even more effective was the 14 A. Correct. 15 personal contact by a Monsanto representative calling 16 on the customer and having an across-the-table kind of 17 discussion regarding what he knew and even to elaborate 18 on what the letters contained to share with them the 19 latest that he had been taught or told. 20 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge of any of 21 those discussions between Monsanto personnel and 22 McGraw-Edison employees? 23 A. I was assured repeatedly in my contacts with 24 marketing representative that this was an ongoing 15 Q. So that if this letter went to a customer who 16 was purchasing one of the products, one or more of the 17 products for that matter, that are listed under fact 18 one, the message that Monsanto intended them to receive 19 was that those particular products weren't part of the 20 environmental concern that was being raised with 21 respect to the PCB's? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. If you look at Page 2904. Is that part of 24 exhibit -- still part of Exhibit 5? Page 105 Page 108 1 activity. I have not been in a position other than my 1 A. Yes. 2 few visits that I made to be an active participant. 2 Q. I don'tknow if we went over that. That 3 Q. And you would have expected those discussions 3 states "Pydrauls and Aroclor start here," you see that 4 to be consistent with the information that was conveyed 4 note? 5 in the letters that we went over this morning? 5 A. I do. 6 A. Certainly. 6 q. Do you have any understandingwhat that 7 Q. The letters that we went over this morning, 7 means? 8 attached to those letters were address lists that were 8 A. This page consisted a list of addressees of 9 in redactive form, we already went over that. Is it 9 the PCB environmental issue letter, or versions of it, 10 your understanding that those letters were addressed 10 and the indication is that some of them that appeared 11 precisely as shown on the address list; in other words, 11 on this page were other than the PCB's that appeared as 12 the individual who was named on the address list was 12 Pydrauls or as Aroclors. In other words, there could 13 the individual to whom the letter was directed? 13 have been a Pyranol list, an Inerteen list. 14 A. Certainly. 14 Q. All right. If you look then at Exhibit 6 15 Q. How were those letters delivered? 15 which is the letter dated February 18, 1970. 16 A. Through the regular -- 16 A. I see it. 17 Q. U.S. Mail, UPS? 17 Q. Does the text that -- let's start with the 18 A. -- U.S. Mail system. 18 first page of that. Does the text of the first page of 19 Q. First class -- 19 that appear to be identical to the text of the first 20 A. Yes. 20 page or Exhibit 5? 21 Q. --bulk? 21 A. True. 22 A. First class. 22 Q. Otherthan the date, of course? 23 Q. Now, you don't have any personal knowledge 23 A. Yes. 24 whether they were specifically received, correct? 24 Q. All right. So that the testimony you gave Page 106 Page 109 1 A. That's true. 1 about the additional facts listed on Exhibit 5 would 2 Q. And you certainly don't know what the 2 also be applicable to the identical text on Exhibit 6, 3 individual who received the letters did with them when 3 correct? 4 they received them? 4 A. Correct. 5 A. That is correct. 5 Q. If you'd look for a moment at Exhibit 8 which 6 Q. Could you take a look at Exhibit 5 for a 6 discusses the incinerator that Monsanto was 7 moment. 7 installing. 8 A. I have it. 8 A. I have it. 9 Q. I'm still looking for it. Oh, I pulled it 9 Q. I just wanted to clarify. Customers who sent 10 out so I could get to it quickly. That's the February 10 material to be disposed of in the incinerator paid for 11 9, 1970 letter that I think you testified went to 11 those services, right, they were charged for that? 12 certain Monsanto customers. The document control 12 A. Yes. 13 numbers begin at 2896; is that correct? 13 Q. If you'd take a look at Exhibit 14 for a 14 A. Correct. 14 moment. 15 Q. Ifyou would look at -- on the first page 15 A. I have it. 16 there. The third full paragraph begins "As you're 16 Q. On Page 2962, that's BATES number 2962. 17 supplier of Aroclor 1254 and 1260 and formulated 17 A. I have it. 18 products containing 1254 we wish to alert you to the 18 Q. That's the internal Monsanto memo and you 19 potential problems of environmental contamination as 19 gave some testimony on that earlier, correct? 20 referred to in the newspaper and magazine articles. We 20 A. Yes. 21 would like to point out the following additional facts" 21 Q. Okay. In the first full paragraph, the last 22 and fact number one says "Products such as Pydraul 90, 22 sentence of that memo says "Also the letter was sent to 23 135, 230, 312, A-200, F-9, 150 and 60, Turbinol 153 and 23 "bill to" locations, you will not find all "ship to" 24 Therminol FR-1 and FR-2 are not formulated with Aroclor 24 locations for major customers on this list." Could you KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY Page 104 - Page 109 WATER PCB-SD0000070475 Multi-PageTM Page 110 Page 113 1 explain that. 1 Q. Would it also be fair to say that it took 2 A. What that implies is that the letter was sent 2 some time for the industry as a whole to become 3 to the "bill to" locations with the assumption that 3 educated about the subject? 4 that "bill to" location is the unit within the 4 MR. RIPPERGER: object to the form. 5 customer's organization that had the responsibility 5 A. Like everything, it does take some time, yes. 6 within the customer's organization for dealing with 6 Q. Let me ask you about Exhibit Number 25 for a 7 subgroups within the organization and the intent was to 7 moment. When you testified about this, I think you 8 make certain that it was sent to the key person, not 8 testified that it was distributed to customers. I'm 9 necessarily to every person. 9 wondering particularly what customers would have 10 Q. If you would look at Exhibit 17 for a moment. 10 received this? 11 A. I have it. 11 A. Since it addressed the subject of Askarels it 12 Q. I think you testified earlier that it would 12 would have to be those customers that used PCB 13 have been your understanding that this -- I forget what 13 containing fluids in electrical equipment that were on 14 we call it but this form or this sheet would have been 14 record with Monsanto as of early 1971. 15 sent to customers of Aroclor 1016? 15 Q. So it would have been those customers who 16 A. Yes. 16 were purchasing those products from Monsanto -- I think 17 Q. And I just wanted to clarify that it would 17 this document's dated March 4, 1971 -- in that time 18 have been sent to customers of Aroclor 1016 as of the 18 frame? 19 November 4, 1975 date that's on the document, correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 A. After it was available, yes, sir. That's the 20 Q. Okay. How was this distributed? 21 date of availability. 21 A. This was assigned to the marketing department 22 Q. Exhibit 19. 22 and they mailed it out and also had their field 23 MR. RIPPERGER: I'm sorry, what was the 23 salesmen carry it with them in their briefcases and 24 previous exhibit that you were referring to? 24 drop it off as they made their calls. Page 111 Page 114 1 A. Seventeen. 1 MR. RIPPERGER: I'm sorry, what exhibit 2 MR. RIPPERGER: Thank VOU. 2 are we looking at here? 3 MR. hensler: Q. Now I'm asking you 3 MR. HENSLER: Twenty-five. 4 about 19. This is the call report for the visit --1 4 MR. ripperger: Thank you. 5 believe it was to the McGraw South Milwaukee plant - 5 MR. HENSLER: Q. This exhibit talks 6 A. Yes. 6 about certain potential health effects from certain 7 Q. -- that we discussed before.I just wanted 7 kinds of exposure to Askarel, correct? 8 to clarify your understanding that all of the personnel 8 A. Yes. 9 contacted listed in this memo were all employees of the 9 Q. And is it your understanding that these were 10 South Milwaukee location as you understood it? 10 essentially the known health effects at that time? 11 A. That's as I understood it, yes, sir. 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. You didn't have any understanding at that 12 Q. Exhibit 26 is a material safety data sheet 13 time that you were talking to any McGraw-Edison 13 and I think you said this also was or would have been 14 employees from any other facilities or from the home 14 provided to Monsanto customers. How was that provided 15 office for that matter? 15 to Monsanto customers? 16 MR. RIPPERGER: object to the form. 16 A. I'm sorry? 17 A. That is correct. 17 Q. How was this provided to Monsanto customers? 18 Q. Exhibit 20, if you would. If you would look 18 A. Again, customers that were active at that 19 at Page 6. Let me skip that, let's go on to Page 7 of 19 point in time still purchasing the material were mailed 20 the document which now bears document control number 20 copies of this through the marketing function. 21 MGE 384. 21 Q. And let me make that clarification as well 22 A. I have it. 22 with respect to the letters we went over about PCB's. 23 Q. If you look at the last full paragraph on 23 Those were sent -- well, strike that, I don't need to 24 that page, I'll read that -- I'll read the last 24 go over that again. If you look at the second page of Page 112 Page 115 1 sentence for the record. It says "However it is 1 this material safety data sheet, you testified briefly 2 recognized that existing drain systems in, for example, 2 about the section that talks about effects of 3 capacitor manufacturing plants are probably 3 overexposure and you mentioned -- one thing you 4 contaminated as a result of past practices and PCB 4 mentioned was chloracne which I see is the first thing 5 traces may continue to show up m affluent streams for 5 mentioned here. You also talked about liver damage. 6 some time." Could you clarify for me, is this 6 You'll agree with me, won't you, that liver damage 7 indicating that for a facility that might have been 7 certainly isn't directly mentioned here? 8 discharging some PCB's in a time period before it 8 A. That's true. 9 became known that PCB's were an environmental concern 9 Q. In fact, other than chloracne this talks 10 might, even after they stopped discharging those, still 10 about systematic intoxication leads to nausea, 11 be releasing some into the environment because of the 11 vomiting, loss of weight, edema and abdominal pain? 12 background contamination that continued to exist from 12 A. Yes. 13 the earlier time period? 13 Q. That's the extent of the effects that are 14 MR. RIPPERGER: Object to the form. 14 listed there, correct? 15 A. That is the understanding, yes. 15 A. Right. 16 Q. Exhibit 24, this warning dated September 30, 16 Q. And was it your understanding that those were 17 1970. I can't remember what you said before. This was 17 the known effects at that time? 18 a new warning, right, particularly this part about the 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 PCB's at that time? 19 Q. Exhibit 27 was the Askarel Inspection and 20 A. New in 1970. 20 Maintenance Guide. You testified that there were 21 Q. Okay. Would it be fair to say that none was 21 earlier editions of this, correct? 22 really at the forefront of learning about and educating 22 A. Yes. 23 people on the potential problems with PCB's? 23 Q. And without looking at the early editions you 24 A. I believe so, yes. 24 can't tell whether any particular things that are m KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY Page 110 - Page 115 WATER PCB-SD0000070476 Multi-PageTM Page 116 Page 119 1 this edition were also in the early editions, correct? 1 South Carolina was also a customer of Monsanto at about 2 MR. RIPPERGER: object to the form. 2 that time; isn't that right? 3 A. Oh, I think I could pick out the material 3 MR. RIPPERGER: object to the form. 4 that appeared in early editions because some of it is 4 A. Yes. 5 just not changing. For example, the testing for its 5 MR. RIPPERGER: do you think you can 6 quality and its properties, those do not change with 6 lead this witness? None of this testimony is going to 7 time. On the other hand I think I could spot the new 7 be admissible because you're asking leading questions 8 material. For example, on Page 5 of the document there 8 and I'm objecting to the form. I don't know if that's 9 is a reference to an ANSI committee C107. 9 all right but I don't think it's proper to be leading 10 Q. Right. 10 him hike you're doing. 11 A. That's new data. New as compared to those 11 Q. Ana it was your understanding that Sangamo 12 versions that were published in the '50's and '60's. 12 Electric Company and McGraw-Edison Facility in 13 Q. That's the section captioned "Avoid 13 Greensboro were separate entities, correct? 14 Environmental Pollution," Section 8? 14 MR. RIPPERGER: object to the form. 15 A. Well, I'm looking at -- Section 8,1 don't 15 A. Yes. I personally don't know any connection 16 see that. 16 between Sangamo and McGraw-Edison. 17 Q. On Page 5, it's right in the middle of the 17 Q. And the first two paragraphs of this letter 18 page. 18 both refer to the Pickens, South Carolina plant, 19 A. On Page 5 -- oh. Well, that certainly is new 19 correct? 20 and then down below you'll see the heading ANSI 20 MR. RIPPERGER: object to the form. 21 Committee C107. That material is new. And by new I'm 21 A. They do. 22 talking '74 and on. 22 Q. And in light of all of that do you think it's 23 Q. Okay. So some of this would have been 23 possible that in the subject line of this memo where 24 included in earlier editions and some of it wasn't? 24 this lists "McGraw-Edison Visit to St. Louis" that that Page 117 Page 120 1 A. And some is added that's new, yes. That's 1 might perhaps be some sort of error? 2 typical of all versions. 2 MR. RIPPERGER: object to the form. 3 Q. I guess that's why they call them revisions? 3 A. There appears to be a discrepancy but I don't 4 A. Correct. 4 know which is the correct designation. 5 Q. Now, you're aware, aren't you, that the 5 Q. You don't have any specific recollection as 6 McGraw-Edison Company throughout the time period we've 6 to -- as you sit here that McGraw-Edison personnel 7 been talking about today existed m a number of 7 visited Monsanto in St. Louis in August of '74, 8 different divisions, correct? 8 correct? 9 MR. RIPPERGER: object to the form. 9 MR. RIPPERGER: object to the form. 10 A. I know there were separate entities. I don't 10 A. I don't have any specific recollection 11 know that they were called divisions, I don't know what 11 regarding the date of such a meeting. I do remember 12 terminology was used, and I know they performed 12 meeting with representatives of McGraw-Edison. I also 13 different lands of activities, varied activities, but 13 know we met with representative of Sangamo. I don't 14 other than that I'm not too familiar with the details. 14 know which of those this memorandum covers. 15 Q. And you don't have any knowledge about how 15 Q. Fair enough. Could you mark that as 36. 16 separate or integrated the vanous divisions of 16 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 36 17 McGraw-Edison were; is that correct? 17 marked for identification.) 18 A. That is true. 18 Q. Mr. Papageorge, you've now been handed what's 19 MR. RIPPERGER: object to the form. 19 been marked Exhibit 36 for the record. At the top it 20 q. And you don't know whether information 20 says "Monsanto Call Report Organic Division" and it 21 provided to one division of McGraw-Edison would have 21 bears document control number MGE 00206. Do you 22 been shared with or available to another division, 22 recognize that document? 23 correct? 23 A. I cannot place this document. Don't remember 24 MR. RIPPERGER: object to the form. You 24 it. Page 118 Page 121 1 answer. 1 Q. Do you recognize its form? 2 A. I have no way of knowing that. 2 A. The form, yes. 3 Q. Exhibit 30,1 think this was covered but I 3 Q. Can you tell me what it is. 4 just wanted to clarify. You gave some testimony about 4 A. This is one of Monsanto's -- it's called a 5 the paragraph there about the PCB's and I just want to 5 call report which is a summary by the field salesman to 6 clarify that your testimony was that that paragraph was 6 his supervisors that a call was made on a customer and 7 not always included on invoices for such products, 7 the topics discussed. 8 correct? 8 Q. On Exhibit 36 the salesman listed there is 9 MR. RIPPERGER: object to the form. 9 R.V. Weyland, do you see that? 10 Q. In other words, prior to the seventies it was 10 A. I do. 11 not, correct? 11 Q. Do you know who that is? 12 MR. RIPPERGER: object to the form. 12 A. I don't remember Mr. Weyland. 13 A. On Exhibit 301 see what appear to be two 13 Q. The document is addressed to Cumming Paton. 14 paragraphs. The wording in those two paragraphs did 14 You identified him earlier in this deposition, didn't 15 not appear on forms prior to 1970. 15 you? 16 Q. Could you look at Exhibit 32 for a moment. 16 A. Yes, I did. 17 A. I have it. 17 Q. I am marking as Papageorge Exhibit 37 a 18 Q. I found this one a little confusing and I'm 18 one-page document -- 19 hoping maybe we can clear it up. The Greensboro, South 19 MR. RIPPERGER: Let's go off the record. 20 Carolina plant at McGraw-Edison was a customer of 20 (Whereupon an off-the-record 21 Monsanto roughly during this time period, correct? 21 discussion was held.) 22 A. That's my understanding. 22 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 37 23 MR. RIPPERGER: object to the form. 23 marked for identification.) 24 Q. And the Sangamo Electric Company in Pickens, 24 Q. Exhibit 37, for the record, bears the KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY Page 116 - Page 121 WATER PCB-SD0000070477 Multi-PageTM Page 122 Page 125 1 document control numbers MGE 943. Do you recognize 1 performance which is what we were striving for. 2 that document? 2 Q. And what do you mean by -- what do you mean 3 A. I do not. 3 by past discharges, specifically here where tne letter 4 Q. The addressee is a D. Wood. Do you remember 4 says residual PCB's due to past discharges? 5 anyone at Monsanto in September, 1976 named D. Wood? 5 A. These were discharges made in the 30 or 40 6 A. Yes, I do. 6 years of PCB uses based on the then accepted 7 Q. Who is that? 7 understanding that PCB's were non-reactive, wouldn't 8 A. David Wood was, in 1976, product manager 8 hurt anything, they're there like pebbles on the beach, 9 for functional fluids. 9 they're there only, they are not doing any harm. With 10 Q. The document is apparently drafted by a Jim 10 that kind of understanding there were some practices 11 Alley. Do you know who that was? 11 then that were acceptable that led to the presence of 12 A. Yes. 12 PCB's in the local waterways. 13 Q. Who was that? 13 MR. RIPPERGER: I guess I'm going to 14 A. Mr. Alley was in the marketing department 14 object to the answer as non-responsive to the question. 15 fulfilling the technical function on matters that 15 MR. HENSLER: I'll just state, for the 16 related to functional fluids being sold at that point 16 record, that that's my objection and I thought the 17 in time, 1976. 17 answer was responsive to my question. 18 Q. Okay. Do you recognize that as his 18 MR. RIPPERGER: what's your objection? 19 signature? 19 MR. chambers: No, that's my objection 20 A. I have not seen Mr. Alley's signature so I 20 to make. It's improper for you to object to an answer 21 don't know. 21 as non-responsive to one of my question. That was the 22 Q. I'm going to show you, for a moment, a 22 only point I was making. 23 document that was produced pursuant to the subpoena to 23 MR. RIPPERGER: I disagree. 24 Monsanto by Wausau, a document bearing document control 24 MR. hensler: Q. Mr. Papageorge, I've Page 123 Page 126 1 numbers MGE 966 through MGE 970. Do you recognize that 1 placed before you a document that bears the document 2 document? 2 control numbers MGE 1354 through 1369. The cover is 3 A. I do not. 3 called "Care and Grooming of Askarel Transformer 4 Q. Never seen anything like that before? 4 Fluid." Have you seen this document before? 5 A. I have seen portions of the pages after the 5 A. Yes, I have. 6 initial page. 6 Q. Could you just tell me what that is? 7 Q. You've not seen the initial sales summary or 7 A. This is a product brochure designed for use 8 what's captioned a sales summary? 8 by the owners of transformers that contain pcb type 9 A. I have not seen this summary, no. 9 Askarel fluids. 10 Q. I won't mark that as an exhioit unless you 10 Q. Do you know when that document was prepared? 11 want to have it marked. 11 A. Not specifically. I have a hard time reading 12 MR. RIPPERGER: I don't care if you mark 12 the date that's on the page marked MGE 001369. 13 it. No, that's fine. 13 Q. Wow, there's a date on there? 14 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 38 14 A. In the middle of thatseries of digits the -- 15 marked for identification.) 15 starting with the fifth digit which I think is a zero. 16 Q. Mr. Papageorge, the court reporter has marked 16 Q. 0962. 17 as Exhibit 38 a document dated January 18, 1974 that 17 A. All right. That's September, 1962 is the 18 bears document control numbers MGE 3055 through 3058. 18 date of publication. 19 Do you recognize that document? 19 Q. I see. But whatever those digits are, that's 20 A. Yes, I do. 20 the month and year of publication? 21 Q. Would you tell me what it is, please. 21 A. Yes. Now, it doesn't apply to all versions 22 A. This is a copy of a letter that I prepared 22 because the catalog number was revised. This 23 and signed and mailed on January 18, 1974 addressed to 23 particular period they include the dates in that 24 the hearing clerk of the United States Environmental 24 number. Page 124 Page 127 1 Protection Agency. 1 Q. I'll ask the court reporter to mark that as 2 Q. That's your signature appearing on Page 3058, 2 Papageorge Exhibit 39, please. 3 correct? 3 (Papageorge Exhibit Numbers 39-40 4 A. It is. 4 marked for identification.) 5 Q. On Pages 2 and 3 of the letter there are 5 Q. Mr. Papageorge, the court reporter has now 6 several numbered paragraphs, specifically they're 6 marked and you have before you Papageorge Exhibit 40. 7 objections, do you see those? 7 For the record it bears document control numbers MGE 8 A. I do. 8 1370 through 1381. Do you recognize that document? 9 Q. Could you read, to yourself, if you like, 9 A. I do. 10 Number 8 and then explain for the record what's being 10 Q. Could you tell me what it is, please. 11 objected to there on Point Number 8. 11 A. It's another version of a product bulletin 12 A. I haveread the paragraph. 12 describing and promoting the use of PCB type 13 Q. Can you explain to me the point that you were 13 transformer fluids. 14 making in that part of your letter. 14 Q. And that's by Monsanto? 15 A. I'll try. The objection is that unless the 15 A. Prepared and issued by Monsanto. 16 presence of PCB's due to past discharges is considered 16 Q. And if we could read the numbers on Page 1381 17 separately from the material currently being discharged 17 we could date this document the same way? 18 the standard being proposed is unduly punitive and 18 A. That's my understanding, yes, sir. I 19 difficult to meet. 19 personally cannot read that, it's - 20 We were concerned at the time that even if the 20 MR. RIPPERGER: I can't read it. 21 operation ceased using PCB's, by the proposed approach 21 MR. HENSLER: I'll have to get out my 22 PCB's would still be found in samples and the operation 22 magnifying glass later. 23 would be accused of discharging those PCB's currently 23 A. That would help. 24 and we felt that this was not a way to measure current 24 MR. RIPPERGER: I doubt it. KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY Page 122 - Page 127 WATER PCB-SD0000070478 Multi-PageTM Page 128 Page 131 1 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 41 1 A. This is another version of the series of 2 marked for identification.) 2 bulletins relating to Askarel type fluids which contain 3 Q. Mr. Papageorge, you now have before you a 3 PCB's marketed by Monsanto and gives the reader ideas 4 document that's been marked Papageorge Exhibit 41 by 4 on use and maintenance of the equipment containing 5 the court reporter. For the record the cover says 5 these fluids. It's a Monsanto document but this 6 "Monsanto Askarel Inspection and Maintenance Guide" 6 particular copy also has the added name of one of 7 revised September I believe that says 1963. The 7 Monsanto's customers on the title page. 8 document control numbers are MGE 1410 through 1441. 8 Q. Allis-Chalmers? 9 Have you seen that document before? 9 A. Allis-Chalmers, yes. 10 A. Yes, I have. 10 Q. If you look at Page 1598, can you tell me the 11 Q. Would you tell me what that is, please. 11 date of production of this document? 12 A. This is another version of a bulletin that's 12 A. Yes, Isee April '71. 13 intended to supply customers and users of PCB type 13 Q. So am I correct in assuming that this is 14 Askarel fluids in transformers with the advantages of 14 essentially a later version of what we've previously 15 their use and how to take care of the unit and service 15 marked as Exhibit 41? 16 it so it continues to function properly. 16 A. Yes. 17 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 42 17 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 44 18 marked for identification.) 18 marked for identification.) 19 Q. Mr. Papageorge, the court reporter has now 19 Q. Mr. Papageorge, you now have before you a 20 marked as Exhibit 42 and you have before you a document 20 copy of a document that the court reporter has marked 21 bearing BATES numbers MGE 1507 through 1518. Do you 21 as Papageorge Exhibit 44. For the record the BATES 22 recognize that document? 22 numbers are MGE 1599 through 1610. Do you recognize 23 A. Yes, I do. 23 that document? 24 Q. Can you tell me what that is? 24 A. I do. Page 129 Page 132 1 A. This is an example of another version of a 1 Q. Could you tell me what it is, please. 2 product brochure in which the use of Askarel fluid 2 A. It's a later version of the document we 3 containing PCB's used in transformers is described in 3 called Exhibit 42. 4 terms of its performance in fire resistance and 4 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 45 5 benefits in transformers. 5 marked for identification.) 6 Q. And who produced this? Who produced this? 6 Q. Mr. Papageorge, you have before you what's 7 MR. RIPPERGER: object to the form. No 7 been marked Papageorge Exhibit 45 by the court 8 foundation. 8 reporter. For the record the document control numbers 9 A. I'm sorry? 9 are mge 1611 through 1625. You recognize that 10 Q. Who produced this document? 10 document, sir? 11 A. This is a Monsanto document -- or brochure 11 A. I do. 12 prepared by Monsanto personnel and shared with 12 Q. Could you tell me what it is, please. 13 customers of Monsanto^s Askarel fluid. 13 A. It's another version, a still later version 14 Q. In your experience did you find documents 14 from the document we had marked as Exhibit 44 and it's 15 such as this produced by Monsanto to be accurate? 15 dated July, '71. 16 A. Yes, it's the state of the art, if you will, 16 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 46 17 at thetime it was published. 17 marked for identification.) 18 Q. At that time? 18 Q. Mr. Papageorge, you now have before you a 19 A. Yes. 19 document marked by the court reporter as Papageorge 20 Q. And, again, if we could read the numbers on 20 Exhibit 46. For the record the document control 21 Page mge 1518 would that be a way to date this 21 numbers are MGE 1626, if I have that right, through MGE 22 document? 22 1653. Did I give the right document control numbers? 23 A. Yes, sir. It appears to be '67. 23 Is it 1626 through 1653? 24 Q. Right, I can see the year '67,1 just can't 24 A. Correct. Oh, you were asking me, I'm sorry. Page 130 Page 133 1 see the month. Can you see that any better than I can? 1 Q. Do you recognize that document? 2 A. No, I can't. With my trifocals? 2 A. I do. 3 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 43 3 Q. And can you tell me what that is, please. 4 marked for identification.) 4 A. This is another version of a bulletin on the 5 Q. I'll note, for the record, Mr. Papageorge 5 Inspection and Maintenance Guide for Askarel in 6 just pointed out to me that the front page of Exhibit 6 electric equipment. I am having some difficulty 7 42 bears the date 8-67 which is at least consistent 7 determining its date of publication. 8 with the date we saw on the back. Do you have any 8 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 47 9 understanding as to what the handwriting on the front 9 marked for identification.) 10 of Exhibit 42 means? 10 Q. Mr. Papageorge, you now have before you a 11 A. I have an understanding, yes. 11 document that the court reporter has marked as 12 Q. What's your understanding? 12 Papageorge Exhibit 47. For the record the document 13 A. Apparently the person that wrote "Sample Book 13 control numbers are mge 2221 through 2268. Would you 14 New 8/67" was involved in the review and distribution 14 please take a look at that and tell me if you recognize 15 of copies of this and identified it for his personal 15 that, please. 16 record as being a sample book; in other words, a sample 16 A. I do recognize it. It is a product technical 17 of the -- of the bulletin that was published in larger 17 bulletin addressing the Aroclor products used as 18 volumes for distribution. 18 dielectrics in capacitors and transformers and it 19 Q. I see. You now have before you what the 19 consists primarily of the physical properties of these 20 court reporter has marked as Papageorge Exhibit 43. 20 materials and promotes their use in electrical 21 The BATES numbers, for the record, are MGE 1567 through 21 equipment. 22 1598. Do you recognize that document? 22 Q. And I want to correct something for the 23 A. I do. 23 record because I think I gave the wrong document 24 Q. Can you tell me what that is? 24 control numbers on that. The document control numbers KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY Page 128 - Page 133 WATER PCB-SD0000070479 Multi-PageTM Page 134 Page 137 1 on the document you're looking at are 2269 through 1 uses and the types of auxiliary products that could be 2 2290; is that correct? 2 used in systems that handle this. For example, 3 A. That's correct. 3 couplings, hoses, gaskets and so on. 4 Q. Okay, 4 Q. If you look at Page MGE 2625, please, there's 5 MR. ripperger: wait a second. What was 5 a section 1016 there captioned "Toxicity and Safe 6 the previous one? 6 Handling Information". 7 MR. HENSLER: we haven't marked that one 7 A. I see that. 8 yet. I got out of order. 8 Q. Does that reflect Monsanto's understanding of 9 MR. RIPPERGER: All right. So what's 9 the appropriate handling for this product, at least as 10 this one, the 2269? 10 of that time? 11 A. Correct. 11 A. Correct. 12 MR. RIPPERGER: what's the number, I'm 12 MR. RIPPERGER: object to the form. 13 sorry? 13 What time are we referring to? 14 MR. HENSLER: It's still ~ 14 MR. HENSLER: That's an excellent 15 A. Forty-seven. 15 question. Q. Are you able to tell me a date of 16 MR. HENSLER: -- Forty-seven. Q. Are 16 publication of this document? 17 you able from looking at Exhibit 47 to put a date on 17 A. On Page 19 of the bulletin which is MGE 18 the publication of the document? 18 002626 I have a hard time reading the date. I hesitate 19 A. If you'll look on the Page MGE 002289 - 19 guessing. 20 Q. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Is it -- if we could read the numbers would 21 A. -- you will see a reference to 11-71. It's 21 the last four numbers on the lower left-hand comer 22 sort of in the middle of that series of digits. 22 reflect the date of publication of this document? 23 Q. Okay. Yes. 23 A. That is my understanding, yes, sir. 24 A. I would suggest that this is November of '71. 24 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 50 Page 135 Page 138 1 Above that -- above the line just below the list of 1 marked for identification.) 2 Monsanto offices there - 2 Q. Mr. Papageorge, you now have before you a 3 Q Yes. 3 document that the court reporter has marked as 4 A. -- you'll see 8-71. That's the date that the 4 Papageorge Exhibit 50. Tne document control numbers 5 list was compiled. 5 are MGE 2640 through 2650. Would you please take a 6 Q. I see. 6 look at that and tell me if you recognize it. 7 A. The publication comes three months later. 7 A. Yes, I do. 8 Q. So you're saying the list of offices was 8 Q. Could you tell me what it is. 9 created in August of '71 and the publication was made 9 A. It's a technical bulletin published by 10 in November of '71? 10 Monsanto on the product Pydraul 312 describing its 11 A. That's what I'm saying, yes. 11 properties, its performance, some procedures on how to 12 Q. And this document would reflect the state of 12 change over systems and handling and storage of the 13 the art in the November time frame? 13 material. 14 A. That's correct. 14 Q. Can you tell from this document a date of 15 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 48 15 publication? 16 marked for identification.) 16 A. I believe I can. It's a -- on the bottom of 17 Q. I have now asked the court reporter to mark 17 the page designated as MGE 0026481 see a 0965 which is 18 as Papageorge Exhibit 48 the document I had previously 18 telling me this was printed in September of '65. 19 read the control numbers for, they are 2221 through MGE 19 MR. RIPPERGER: Can I see your version 20 2268. Do you recognize that document? 20 of it, please. I don't see the 5. Can you show me 21 A. I do. 21 where you're reading from? You see that as a 9 '65? 22 Q. Could you tell me what it is, please. 22 A. Yes. 23 A. This is a product bulletin describing 23 MR. RIPPERGER: Okay. 24 Monsanto's Aroclor products and containing references 24 A. That's what it looks like to me. Page 136 Page 139 1 to possible uses of these products. 1 MR. HENSLER: Looks like it to me too. 2 Q. Are you able to tell me the date of 2 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 51 3 publication of this document? 3 marked for identification.) 4 A. Only by noting in the upper right-hand corner 4 MR. HENSLER: Q. Mr. Papageorge, the 5 of the top page a handwritten note referring to the 5 court reporter has marked as Papageorge Exhibit 51 a 6 looks like ^Second reprinting, several corrections, May 6 document bearing the document control numbers mge 12682 7 1962, 5,000 copies". 7 through 2691. Would you please take a look at that and 8 Q. Is the material that's reflected in this 8 let me know if you recognize it. 9 document consistent with what you would expect to find 9 A. I recognize it. 10 in a document of the vintage May, 1962? 10 Q. Is that a later version of what was 11 MR. RIPPERGER: objection to the form. 11 previously marked Papageorge Exhibit 50? 12 A. Yes. 12 A. Yes. 13 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 49 13 Q. Can you tell from Papageorge 51 a publication 14 marked for identification.) 14 date for that document? 15 Q. Mr. Papageorge, the court reporter has now 15 A. As best I can tell the date is 0668, June, 16 marked as Exhibit 49 a document containing document 16 '68. 17 control numbers MGE 2604 through 2627. Would you take 17 (Papageorge Exhibit 52 18 a look at that, please, and tell me if you recognize 18 marked for identification.) 19 it? 19 Q. Mr. Papageorge, you have before you a 20 A. I recognize it. 20 document that the court reporter has marked as 21 Q. Can you tell me what it is,please. 21 Papageorge Exhibit 52. Document control numbers are 22 A. It's a product bulletin describing Monsanto's 22 MGE 2724 through 2739. Would you take a look at that, 23 hydraulic fluid which was sold under the trade name 23 please, and let me know if you recognize it. 24 Pydraul F-9. It describes Pydraul F-9's properties, 24 A. I recognize it. KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY Page 134 - Page 139 WATER PCB-SD0000070480 Multi-PageTM Page 140 Page 143 1 Q. What is it? 1 Monsanto's Pydrual hydraulic fluids. 2 A. It's a Monsanto publication referred to as a 2 Q. Are you able to tell me a date of publication 3 Selector 1 for a series of Monsanto's Pydraul hydraulic 3 of that? 4 fluids. 4 A. I cannot determine a date of publication. 5 Q. Are you able to tell me the date of 5 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 57 6 publication of that document? 6 marked for identification.) 7 A. I will try. As best I can tell this is June 7 Q. Mr. Papageorge, the court reporter just 8 of'69. 8 handed you what she has marked Papageorge 57. For the 9 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 53 9 record the document control numbers are MGE 2802 10 marked for identification.) 10 through 2834. Would you please take a look at that and 11 Q. Mr. Papageorge, you now have before you what 11 let me know if you recognize it. 12 the court reporter has marked as Papageorge Exhibit 12 A. I recognize it. 13 53. The document control numbers are MGE 2740 through 13 Q. Would you tell me what it is, please. 14 2755. You recognize that document? 14 A. It is another version of the Monsanto 15 A. I have seen this document before. 15 bulletin referring to Askarels and is the inspection 16 Q. Could you tell me what it is, please. 16 and maintenance guide for the use of Askarel fluids 17 A. It's another bulletin by Monsanto. It's 17 containing PCB's in electrical equipment. 18 called Selector 2 for Monsanto's Pydraul hydraulic 18 Q. Are you able to tell me the date of 19 fluids describing another series of Pydraul products 19 publication of this document? 20 and their recommended uses and procedures for change 20 A. I don't believe so. I see no indication of 21 over and as best as I can tell it also is dated June of 21 date of publication. 22 1969. 22 Q. Ifyou look at MGE 2834. if we could read 23 Q. Do you know the difference between Pydraul 23 the numbers in the lower left-hand comer of that page, 24 Selector 1 and Pydraul Selector 2 which have been 24 according to your understanding would those give us Page 141 Page 144 1 marked as Exhibit 52 and Exhibit 53? Do you know why 1 the date of publication for this document? 2 one is called Selector 1 and one is called Selector 2? 2 A. Yes. 3 A. As I remember it had to do with the 3 Q. Very good. Thank you for your patience. I 4 performance of the groupings of the two sets of 4 have nothing further unless Mr. Ripperger does. 5 Pydrauls and it was primarily based on cost of the 5 MR. RIPPERGER: Yeah, I have some 6 fluid. There were a low cost series without the 6 follow-ups. 7 superior properties and then there was a higher cost 7 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 8 version with properties that would fit more severe 8 BY MR. RIPPERGER: 9 operating conditions. 9 Q. I'd like to refer you, if I could, please, to 10 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 54 10 Exhibits 57, 56, 55, 54. With all of those documents I 11 marked for identification.) 11 believe you indicated that you were unable to date 12 Q. Mr. Papageorge, you now have before you what 12 them; is that correct? 13 the court reporter has marked as Papageorge Exhibit 13 A. That is correct. 14 54. The document control numbers are MGE 2756 through 14 Q. So that these documents could have been 15 2777. Would you please take a look at that and tell me 15 drafted at any point in time? 16 if you recognize it. 16 A. Well, when you say could have, yes. 17 A. I recognize the exhibit. 17 Q. Right. With respect to Exhibit 48, if you 18 Q. Could you tell me what it is, please. 18 would turn back to that one, please. 19 A. It's another version of a selector guide for 19 A. I have it. 20 Monsanto's Pydraul hydraulic fluids. 20 Q. Other than the notation in the upper 21 Q. Can you tell me the date of publication of 21 right-hand comer does this document at all give any 22 this document? 22 indication as to when it was published? 23 A. I don't see any reference to a date. I 23 A. I could not find it. There is nothing there 24 cannot date it. 24 that's obvious to me. Page 142 Page 145 1 Q. All right. 1 Q. So, again, this document could have been 2 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 55 2 drafted at any point in time? 3 marked for identification.) 3 A. When you say any point I -- 4 Q. Mr. Papageorge, you have before you what the 4 Q. Well, any pomt - 5 court reporter has marked as Papageorge Exhibit 55. 5 A. Does it go back to the 1800's, no. 6 For the record the document control numbers are MGE 6 Q. No, no, I understand. This document could 7 2778 through 2785. Would you please take a look at 7 have been drafted at any point in time that Monsanto 8 that and tell me if you recognize it. 8 was manufacturing Aroclor? 9 A. I do recognize it. 9 A. I hesitate because Monsanto was manufacturing 10 Q. And can you tell me - 10 Aroclors prior to World War n. Many of the comments 11 A. It is a Monsanto publication which contains 11 in these documents refer to uses that were not 12 information on how to convert existing hydraulic 12 developed until the 1950's so when you say any point in 13 systems to the use of Monsanto's Pydraul hydraulic 13 time during manufacture it's possible that for a couple 14 fluids. I cannot establish the date of publication. 14 early decades it would have been possible had they 15 (Papageorge Exhibit Number 56 15 known about the potential uses that they were 16 marked for identification.) 16 eventually applied to. 17 Q. Mr. Papageorge, you now have what the court 17 Q. At any rate, you're unable to date Exhibit 18 reporter has marked as Papageorge Exhibit 56. Document 18 48? 19 control numbers are MGE 2786 through 2801. Do you 19 A. That's true. 20 recognize that document? 20 Q. Okay. Exhibit 40, if you'd turn back to that 21 A. I do. 21 one, please. 22 Q. Would you tell me what it is, please. 22 A. I have it. 23 A. It's another version of a Monsanto brochure 23 Q. I believe that you indicated that you were 24 on how to convert hydraulic systems to the use of 24 unable to date that document? KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY Page 140 - Page 145 WATER PCB-SD0000070481 Multi-PageTM Page 146 Page 149 1 MR. CHAMBERS: objection. The record 1 up, drop by the medical department and get them. 2 will speak for itself. 2 Another of course is by direct mailing where his 3 A. Yes, I could not because I could not read the 3 supervisors in St. Louis contact the medical department 4 blurred catalog number. 4 and get copies and send them through the mail. 5 Q. So this document could have been -- well, let 5 Q. Was that Monsanto's practice in the early 6 me ask you this, given the format of the document with 6 seventies when a document such as Exhibit 25 was 7 the type and the pictures that are depicted, 7 generated to make sure that such a document would be 8 particularly on Page 1 and the rest of the pages, does 8 distributed to Monsanto's customers? 9 that indicate to you that this document was probably 9 A. Oh, yes. 10 drafted quite some time ago? 10 Q. I'd like to turn back, lastly, to an exhibit 11 MR. chambers: objection to the form of 11 that I'm not quite sure of the number of. Let's go off 12 the question. 12 the record. Oh, never mind. That's all I have. Thank 13 A. Oh, I'm -- I'm no authority on -- 13 you very much, Mr. Papageorge, I really appreciate it. 14 Q. Okay. 14 Do you have some more follow-up, Louis? 15 A. I would suggest, sir, that perhaps amore 15 MR. hensler: I just want to ask one 16 meaningful clue is the use of the mail zip code. This 16 question. 17 is a double digit and later on you'll see five digit 17 MR. RIPPERGER: okay. One always leads 18 references. 18 to two, you know that. 19 Q. What are you referring to? 19 MR. HENSLER: I hope not. 20 A. The Monsanto Chemical address. 20 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 21 Q. Where it says St. Louis 66? 21 BY MR. HENSLER: 22 A. St. Louis 66. Now I'm sure you can goto the 22 Q. On Exhibit 17. 23 post office and find out when they went from 66 to six 23 A. Exhibit 17. 24 thousand something for St. Louis. That might help 24 Q. That's the toxicity information sheet for Page 147 Page 150 1 establish a period of time when this was in use. 1 Aroclor 1016. This question isn't actually about this 2 Q. Have you actually seen Exhibit 40 before 2 document so let me just ask it. When you were 3 today? 3 testifying about this document a moment ago you said 4 A. Oh, yes. 4 you believed you recalled in 1972 that an equivalent 5 MR. HENSLER: Objection. Asked and 5 type of document had been created by Monsanto and I 6 answered. 6 just wanted to clarify what you meant by equivalent. 7 Q. When did you first have an opportunity to see 7 What I'm assuming you meant was a document that's 8 Exhibit 40? 8 similar but not necessarily identical in every detail 9 A. With my assignment in PCB issues in 19701 9 as Exhibit 17, is that what you meant? 10 was exposed to these kind of things and I remember from 10 A. Yes. What I had in mind is the material 11 way back then. 11 safety data sheet, a copy of which we saw here which 12 Q. Okay. I'd like you to turn back to Exhibit 12 used the Occupational Safety and Health Agency's format 13 17, please. I believe Mr. Hensler asked you a couple 13 and at that time in '72 we took all the active PCB 14 questions about this document. This document -- well, 14 products and put that information on that OSHA, 15 what does that document purport to show? 15 O-S-H-A, form. That's what I meant by an equivalent 16 A. This summarizes Monsanto's medical department 16 format. 17 information regarding the toxicity on Aroclor 1016. 17 Q. That's all. You've been exceptionally 18 Q. Do you have any understanding as to whether 18 patient and I appreciate that. 19 such a document as that was generated by Monsanto's 19 MR. RIPPERGER: I don't have anything 20 medical department when Aroclor 1016 was first 20 else. Mr. Papageorge, I'm sure as many times as you've 21 developed? 21 gone through this that you understand you have a right 22 A. Yes. 22 to read and review the transcript. Would you like to 23 Q. And did the medical department generate such 23 exercise that right? 24 a document when it was first developed? 24 THE witness: whatever the group feels Page 148 Page 151 1 A. As best I remember we had an equivalent type 1 comfortable with. 2 of document for 1016 in about 1972. 2 MR. ripperger: Actually it's your 3 Q. Okay. Can you turn to Exhibit 25, please. 3 choice. 4 A. I have it. 4 THE WITNESS: Is it? 5 Q. Again Mr. Hensler asked you some questions 5 MR. RIPPERGER: Yes. 6 about this document and I just wanted to clarify a 6 THE witness: okay.I might as well 7 couple things. I believe you said that this document 7 look at it because I don't really know what I said up 8 was ~ I'm sorry to look over your shoulder but I can't 8 to this point. 9 find my version of it. I believe you indicated that 9 MR. RIPPERGER: All right.He'll read 10 this document was somehow distributed by salesmen to 10 and sign. 11 people, is that what you indicated? 11 (Signature Not Waived.) 12 A. That's one method of distribution, yes. 12 13 Q. Can you explain to me how that would come 13 14 about, how salesmen would distribute a document such as 14 15 Exhibit 25 through their salesmen? 15 16 A. Well, several ways, one is during their 16 17 periodic sales meetings where a group of them are 17 18 assembled and brought up to date on new developments. 18 19 In many cases, not just for the products we're talking 19 20 about here but for any Monsanto product they all would 20 21 be handled -- or handed envelopes full of handout 21 22 material, including toxicity statements. That's one 22 23 way. Another is when the salesmen visit St. Louis to 23 24 see his bosses and get caught up to date, pick these 24 KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY Page 146 - Page 151 WATER PCB-SD0000070482 Multi -PageTM Page 152 1 STATE OF ILLINOIS ) 2 ) SS 3 COUNTY OF MADISON ) 4 I, TRICIA EMDE HUFF, a Notary Public in and for 5 the County of Madison, State of Illinois, DO hereby 6 CERTIFY that pursuant to agreement between counsel 7 there appeared before me on August 1, 1997 at the St. 8 Louis Marriot Hotel, St. Louis, Missouri, WILLIAM B. 9 PAPAGEORGE, P.E. who was first duly sworn by me to 10 testify the whole truth of his knowledge touching upon 11 the matter in controversy aforesaid so far as he should 12 be examined and examination was taken by me in 13 shorthand and afterwards transcribed upon the 14 typewriter; and said transcript having first been read 15 and signed by the deponent is filed with the Clerk of 16 the Court. 17 IN WITNESS WHEREOF I have hereunto set my hand and. 18 affixed my Notarial Sephthis /j?'4aay of August* 22L_-^/ Notary Public--CSR #0844(0532 23 X 24 My Commission expires February 19, 2001. Page 1 53 1 2 3 (Witnesses* name) 4 "OFFICIAL SEAL" 5 6 7 8 IN THE COUNTY OF TRICIA EMDE HUFF NOTARY PUBLIC, STATE OF ILLINOIS MY COMMISSION EXPIRES 02/19/01 9 10 STATE OF 11 12 IN WITNESS WHEREOF I have hereunto set my hand 13 and affixed my Notarial Seal this day of , 14 1997. 15 16 17 NOTARY PUBLIC 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY Page 152 - Page 153 WATER PCB-SD0000070483