Document G5vdvgbdLzBvEXnDXdvMv7wv4
FILE NAME: RT Vanderbilt (RTV)
DATE: 2006 Apr 5
DOC#: RTV227
DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Legal - Deposition Paul Vanderbilt with Exhibit
Stratos Legal Services, LP
Cause No. 200 5 -3 5 2 0 1 -A
VICTOR GRUETZNER, P laintiff
VS.
ABCO INDUSTRIES, I NC. ET AL.
) IN THEDI STRI CT COURT OF
)
)
) HARRIS COUNTY, TEXAS
)
) ) 11TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
T ra n sfe rre d from
NO. 0 3 - C V - 0 5 7 2 - E
VICTOR GRUETZNER, P la in tiff
VS.
ABCO INDUSTRIES, INC. ET AL.
} IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF )
) ) GALVESTON COUNTY, TEXAS )
) ) 2 1 2 th JUDICIAL DISTRICT
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ORAL/VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF: PAUL VANDERBILT APRIL 5, 2006
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O R A L/V ID EO TA PED D EPO SITIO N o f
2 PA U L V A N D ERB ILT, produced as a w itness at the
3 instance o f the P lain tiff and duly sw orn, w as taken
4 in the above-styled and num bered cause on th e 5th o f
5 A pril, 2006, from 9:03 a.m . to 3:08 p.m ., before
6 Jill M. Phillips, C S R in and for the State o f Texas,
7 reported by m achine shorthand, at th e offices o f
8 Spain H astings & W ard, 3900 T w o H ouston Center,
9 909 Fannin Street, H ouston, T exas 77010, pursuant to
1 0 the Texas Rules o f C ivil Procedure and the
11 provisions stated on th e record o r attached hereto.
12
]_3
* * * *
14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
1
EXHIBITS
(CONTINUED)
2
NUMBER DESCRIPTION
PAGE
3 #7
Summary Report from Division of 214
4
Respiratory Disease Studies
5 #8 Inter-Office Memorandum
222
Dated May 27, 1988
6
#9 Health Hazard Evaluation Report 225
7
8
* * *
9
10
11 12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20 21 22 23 24 25
Page 3
1
INDEX
2 Appearances..................................5-6
3 Exhibit Index................................3-4
4
5 PAUL VANDERBILT:
6
7 Examination by Mr. M cLeod.............. 10
8
Examination by Mr. W agner...............267
9
10
1 1 Signature and
12 Changes......................................273
1 3 Reporter's Certificate.......................275
14
15
EXHIBITS
16 NUMBER DESCRIPTION
PAGE
17 #1 Letter Dated February 10,2006 22
from Mr. McLeod to Mr. Pickering
18
#2 Plaintiffs Notice o f Oral and 38
19
Videotaped Deposition with
Subpoena Duces Tecum
20
#3 Defendant R.T. Vanderbilt Company, 42
21
Inc.'s Responses and Objections to
Plaintiffs Subpoena Duces Tecum
22
#4 Deposition Given by Mr. Vanderbilt 127
23
November o f 2005
24 #5 Discovery Responses
154
25 #6 Article from Science Magazine 163
1
APPEARANCES
2
3 F OR TH E PLAINTIFFS:
4
M r. M att M cLeod
Mr. Ross Stom el
5
SHRADER &W ILLIAM SON
1021 M ain Street, Suite 1450
6
Houston, Texas 77002
7
FO R T H E D EFEN D A N T R.T. V A N D ER B ILT :
8
Mr. P. W ayne Pickering
9
SPAIN HASTINGS &W ARD
3900 Tw o H ouston Center, 909 Fannin Street
10
Houston, Texas 77010
11
Mr, Peter R. Y ork
HAW KINS &PARNELL
12
4000 Sun trust Plaza
303 Peachtree Street N E
13
A tlanta, G eorgia 30308
14
FO R TH E D EFEN DA N T TH A G RICU LTU RE & NUTRITION:
15 M r. F red erick J. W ag n er
16
SHEEHY SERPE &WARE
2500 Tw o H ouston Center
17
909 Fannin Street
Houston, Texas 77010
18
1 9 F O R T H E D EFE N D A N T G U A R D -L IN E , INC.:
2 0
M r. W illiam H. Farrell
COTTON FARRELL
21
80) Congress, 4th Floor
H ouston, Texas 77002
22
23
24
25
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2 (Pages 2 to 5)
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P a g e 8 11
APPEARANCES (CONTINUED)
3
FOR THE DEFENDANT BECHTEL:
4
Ms. Monika Barahona
5
STEVENS BALDO & FREEMAN
550 Fannin Street
76 Beaumont, Texas 77701
FOR THE DEFENDANT DAIMLER CHRYSLER: 8
Ms. Heather A. Berner 9 HAWKINS PARNELL & THACKSTON
4514 Cole Avenue, Suite 550
10 Dallas, Texas 75202
11
FOR THE DEFENDANTS FLUOR DANIELS, W.S. BELLOWS and
12 TRINITY:
13 Mr. Mark C. James
ADAMS & BOSWELL
14 1010 Lamar Street, Suite 1800
Houston, T exas 77002
15
1 6 FOR THE DEFENDANTS BONDEX INTERNATIONAL, INC. and
RPM, INC.:
17
Mr. T. Lynn Walden
18 JE N K IN S* MARTIN
2615 Calder, Suite 500
19 Beaumont, Texas 77702 20
FOR THE DEFENDANT COEN COMPANY:
21
Mr. Jerry Kacal
22 KACAL AD AM S* LAW
One Riverway, Suite 1200
2 3 Houston, Texas 77056 24
ALSO PRESENT:
25
Mr. Doug Overstreet, Videographer
1 T.H. Agriculture & Nutrition.
2
MR. WALDEN: T. Lynn Walden for
3 Bondex International and RMP.
4
MR. STOMEL: Ross Stomel for the
5 plaintiff.
6
MR. McLEOD: Agreements?
7
MR. PICKERING: We'd like to read
8 and sign. Agree that if the original's not
9 available, a copy can be used at hearings or at
10 trial.
11
MR. McLEOD: Okay. Even without
12 saying, we're taking this pursuant to the Texas
13 Rules today.
14
MR. PICKERING: Right, pursuant to
15 the Texas Rules.
16
MR. McLEOD: So as to cut down on
17 duplicitous objections, all agree one objection's
18 good for everybody present; and are all defendants
19 present and announced for, that is.
2 0
We've got one more. We're making
21 announcements right now. Just tell us who you are
j
2 2 and who you represent.
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2 3
MS. BARAHONA: Monika Barahona and I 1
2 4 represent Bechtel.
f
2 5
MR. McLEOD: Thank you, Monika.
f
Page 7
Page 9 f
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're on the
1
Is that all?
2 record, April, 5th, 2006. It's 9:03 a.m., beginning
2
MR. PICKERING: Just for the record,
3 of Tape 1.
3 Mr. Vanderbilt's here pursuant to the notice; and
4
Would the court reporter please swear
4 we've responded to the subpoena duces tecum you'd
5 in the witness.
5 sent. And by his appearing today, we're not waiving
6
(Witness sworn.)
6 a right to preserve and pursue the objections that
7
MR. McLEOD: Just before we get
7 we made to the duces tecum.
8 started, I'd like for everybody here present at the
8
MR. McLEOD: Okay. Does the witness
9 deposition today to go ahead and make announcements 9 have a copy of his current CV? Because I haven't
10 as to who you are, your full name and who you are
10 been provided with one up to today's date.
11 here representing today in this deposition and in
11
THE WITNESS: No, I don't.
8
12 this lawsuit; and I'll start.
12
MR. McLEOD: Okay. Do you have a CV
13
I'm Matt McLeod. I represent the
13 at all?
14 plaintiff.
14
THE WITNESS: Actually, no.
15
MR. PICKERING: Wayne Pickering here
15
MR. McLEOD: Not even a resume?
16 for defendant, R.T. Vanderbilt.
16
THE WITNESS: No.
17
MR. YORK: Peter York on behalf of
17
MR. McLEOD: Okay.
18 R.T. Vanderbilt.
18
And just for the record, in response
19
MR. FARRELL: William Farrell for
19 to my subpoena duces tecum, no documents have been
2 0 Guard-Line.
21
MR. JAMES: Mark James for Fluor,
2 0 provided by this witness in response to any of those
21 requests; is that correct?
'
2 2 Trinity and W.S. Bellows.
2 2
MR. PICKERING: For the reasons set
2 3
MS. BERNER: Heather Berner for
2 3 forth in the response and the objections that we
2 4 DaimlerChrysler.
2 4 filed, that is correct.
25________ MR. WAGNER: Frederick Wagner for_____ 25
MR. McLEOD: Okay.
3 (Pages 6 to 9)
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Page 1 2
1
PAUL VANDERBILT,
1 A. Yes.
after being first duly sworn, testified as follows:
2 Q. Okay. I'mjust having trouble hearing
3
EXAMINATION
3 you.
|
4 BY MR. McLEOD:
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Mr. Vanderbilt, we met just a second ago.
5 Q. Okay. Have they told you that what you
6 I introduced myself; but just for the benefit of the
6 say with them is -- is privileged information? Your
7 jury who didn't hear us then, I'm Matt McLeod. I
7 discussions with R.T. Vanderbilt's lawyers, have
8 represent a man named Victor Gruetzner. You know
8 they said that that information is privileged?
1
9 that, right?
9 A. Yes.
i
10 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. You do understand, sir, that the
11 Q. You understand, sir, I'm not your lawyer,
11 testimony you're giving here today has the same
i
12 right?
12 force and effect as if you were sitting in a
13 A. Excuse me?
13 courtroom in front ofjudge and a jury, right?
14 Q. You understand that I am not your lawyer,
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 don't you?
15 Q. Okay. And this is not your first rodeo,
16 A. Yes.
16 so to speak. You have been deposed before.
17 Q. Okay. Are you represented by counsel
17 A. Yes.
18 personally here today?
18 Q. You understand the oath you j ust took?
19 A. No.
19 A. I do.
2 0 Q. Are you testifying as a fact witness or as
20 Q. You promise to tell us the truth?
1
21 a corporate representative of the R.T. Vanderbilt
21 A. Yes.
22 Company today?
22 Q. You've been advised by your lawyers what
23 A. The latter.
23 perjury is, right?
24 Q. Okay. Corporate representative?
24 A. I know that, yes.
25 A. Yes.
2 5 Q. Okay. If you, in fact, perjure yourself,
Pa g e 11
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Q. Okay. You have no personal knowledge
1 you know, you're personally going to have to answer
2 about the facts of Victor Gruetzner's individual
2 for that, correct?
3 lawsuit at all, do you?
3 A. Yes.
4
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
4 Q. All right. Can you think of any reason
5 A. Only as to Vanderbilt's involvement in it.
5 today why you would not be able to testify
6 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Okay. Well, we'll get
6 accurately?
7 into that.
7 A. No.
8
Sir, as corporate representative,
8 Q. Sir, are you going to come to trial in
9 you're not only testifying as --as yourself; but
9 this case?
10 you're testifying on behalf of R.T. Vanderbilt, the
10 A. I don't know.
11 whole company today. You understand that, right?
11 Q. Would you be willing to testify live at
:
12 A. Yes.
12 trial down in Galveston, Texas if R.T. Vanderbilt's
13 Q. We can't bring eveiybody from Norwalk down
13 lawyers asked you to?
14 here to testify. As far as R.T. Vanderbilt goes,
14 A. Yes.
15 you're it. You understand that?
15 Q. Have you ever done that before?
16 A. Yes.
16 A. No.
1
17 Q. And you speak on behalf of R.T. Vanderbilt
17 Q. Have you ever been asked to before and
18 when you answer my questions today, right?
18 declined?
19 A. Yes.
19 A. No.
2 0 Q. Do - do you believe that you and R.T.
20 Q. Why is it that you've never been asked to
21 Vanderbilt's two lawyers here today, do you believe
21 testify in trial before on behalf of R.T.
22 that you have some kind of an attomey/client
22 Vanderbilt?
\
23 privilege with them?
23
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
24 A. Yes.
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. You do?
25 Q, (By Mr. McLeod) They just haven't asked
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-1 you? A. I think there's been some discussion, but
3 no. 4 Q. Okay. Sir, how many depositions have you 5 given for R.T. Vanderbilt in the past? 6 A. Oh, I don't know, about six or seven. 7 Q. Can you tell me how many of those 8 depositions were given in cases where people are 9 alleging that they got an asbestos-related injury as 10 a result of exposure to R.T. Vanderbilt talc 11 products? 12 A. Well, they were alleging injury from talc, 13 not necessarily asbestosis, in all but one -- no, 14 all but - actually, all but two or three. 15 Q. Okay. So how many is that? How many 16 times have you testified on behalf o f-- 17 A. Somewhere in the area of four or five. 18 Q. Okay. And are you saying that there's 19 only one or two other depositions that you've given 2 0 on behalf of R.T. Vanderbilt that did not involve an 21 injury related to talc? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Do you know what those cases were about? 24 A. One was a dispute between two hazardous 25 waste companies concerning their own competitive
1 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Okay. And what was the
2 result of that litigation?
1
3 A. I think they reached a settlement.
|
4 Q. Okay. Was it CNA? Was that one of the
|
5 parties?
1
6 A. Yes.
?
7 Q. Okay. Was Hartford involved in that?
;
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. And what was the - what was the
10 point of contention in that litigation?
11 A. The sharing of coverage.
12 Q. Okay. And was it decided that CNA had the
13 lion's share of the coverage involved in
|
14 talc-related cases?
15 A. Well, I think the majority, yes.
|
16 Q. Okay. We were talking about depositions
f
17 and we got sidetracked a little bit there. Can you
!
18 tell me the first time you ever gave a deposition in
;
19 any case where it was alleged by the plaintiffs in
20 the case that - or even R.T. Vanderbilt talc dust
l
21 had caused them injury? When did you first give a
22 deposition in a case like that?
23 A. Actually, I can't remember specifically
r
24 which one.
1
25 Q. Can you ballpark me?
P age 15
P age 17 j
issues and two related to insurance coverage.
2 Q. Insurance coverage as it related to what?
3 A. To the R.T. Vanderbilt Company.
4 Q. In what respect? What insurance coverage
5 was it for?
6 A. Excuse me?
7 Q. What was the insurance coverage for?
8 A. For general liability.
9 Q. Did it have -- it had nothing to do with
10 asbestos or talc, though?
11 A. It had to do with coverage of - insurance
12 coverage of R.T. Vanderbilt Company.
13 Q. Okay. Has - have your insurance carriers
14 entered into litigation on the issue of whether or
15 not they owe y'all a duty to defend you in asbestos
16 cases or talc cases?
17 A. Have they sued R.T. Vanderbilt Company?
18 No.
19 Q. I didn't ask you that. I said: Has there
20 been any litigation involved in that issue on behalf
21 of your carriers?
22
MR. PICKERING: At what time frame,
23 Matt?
24
MR. McLEOD: Ever.
25 A. Between the carriers, yes.
1 A. Well, certainly post '84, which is when I
2 joined the company.
f
3 Q. How far past '84 --how long after you
f
4 joined the company -
i
5 A. I don't know.
1
6 Q. --was it when you first gave a
7 deposition?
i
8 A. I don't know.
[
9 Q. You have no idea?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Can you tell me if it was '99 or '85.
12 A. I don't know.
j
13 Q. Okay. I've read some of your deposition
|
14 testimony in the past that you have given and I
15 think you told us that the first deposition you gave
16 was in a city called Kansas City, Missouri. Do you
^
17 remember saying that?
18 A. I don't think that was the first
|
19 deposition I've given.
20 Q. That wasn't the first one?
t
21 A. What? No.
I
22 Q. Okay. Well, was it a gentleman by the
23 name of Steve Craig taking your deposition in that
]
24 case, or do you recall?
I
25 A. Well, I know --I - yes, I know he took a
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5 (Pages 14 to 17)
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deposition of me, yes.
1 your lawyers, who've represented you over the years
Q. Okay. In Kansas City?
2 and --and -- or represented R.T. Vanderbilt over
3 A. I'm not sure.
3 the years in talc litigation to produce depositions
l
4 Q. AH right. I heard you had the pleasure
4 that you've given in the past on that issue?
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5 of having your deposition taken out in California
5
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
6 last week. Is that right?
6 A. I don't know.
!.
7 A. No.
7 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Are you aware that
f
8 Q. No? You weren't deposed last week?
8 they're required to produce those depositions to me
I
9 A. Not in California.
9 under the master discovery governing asbestos cases
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10 Q. Okay. Thanks for clearing that up.
10 here in Texas?
^
11
Was it by a man named Bill Levan that
11 A. No.
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12 took your deposition?
12 Q. They haven't discussed that with you?
f
13 A. I don't know.
13 A. No.
=
14 Q. All right. Was that a case involving a
14 Q. Have you signed any affidavits in
]
15 talc-related injury?
15 conjunction with any of the talc litigation ever -
s
16 A. Yes.
16 A. Yes.
|
17 Q. You can't tell me who took your
17 Q. --that involved R.T. Vanderbilt?
18 deposition?
18 A. Yes.
1
19 A. I forget the name of the attorney.
19 Q. Do your lawyers have those affidavits?
!
20 Q. Okay. Can you tell me where you were when
20 A. Yes.
21 that deposition was taken, sir?
21 Q. Can you tell me why none of those
r
22 A. New York City.
22 affidavits were produced to me in this case?
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23 Q. Okay. At the law offices of the fine firm
23
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
f
24 Akin & Gump, right?
24 Argumentative.
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25 A. Yes.
25 A. No.
Page 19
P a g e 21 i
Q. Sir, the depositions that you give on
1 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) You can't tell me why?
t
2 behalf of R.T. Vanderbilt, do you keep them, copies
2 A. No.
f
3 of them?
3 Q. Do you understand the allegations that are
j
4 A. I think my lawyers have. I don't think I
4 being made against R.T. Vanderbilt in this case,
5 have them personally, no.
5 sir?
i
6 Q. Do you generally get a chance to review
6 A. Generally, yes.
7 those depositions after you give your testimony and
7 Q. Generally, what do you think they are?
1
8 make sure everything got typed down correctly?
8 A. Well, R.T. Vanderbilt Company is being
|
9 A. Yes.
9 accused of having sold asbestos-containing product
f
10 Q. Do you generally sign them and certify
10 to which your plaintiff was exposed.
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11 that your answers were correct and true?
11 Q. That's correct. And do you have an
1
12 A. Yes.
12 understanding of how he would have been exposed to i
13 Q. Okay. And you say your lawyers have all
13 R.T. Vanderbilt asbestos-containing products?
1
14 those depositions that you've given from the first
14 A. Well, there is no asbestos-containing
\
15 one through the last one that you gave?
15 product from R.T. Vanderbilt. But I think the
f
16
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
16 allegation is in joint compounds or spackling
f
17 A. You have to ask them.
17 compounds, something like that.
f
18 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Do you know how many past 18 Q, We're alleging that Victor Gruetzner was
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19 depositions were produced to me in this case by your
19 exposed to R.T. Vanderbilt talc, which was a
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20 lawyers?
20 component part ofjoint compounds and spackling
f
21 A. No.
21 compounds and finishing compounds, basically just
22 Q. One.
22 wallboard finishing products that he used over his
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23
Now, can you tell me why that is?
23 career back in the '50s on through his career. Is
f
24 A. No.
24 that consistent with your understanding?
f
25 Q. Do you think it would be difficult for
25 A. Yes.
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P a g e 24 i,
Q. Okay. How did you arrive at that
z conclusion that that's what this case was about?
3 A. Well, because I've seen the complaint and
4 I've discussed it with the company's attorneys.
5 Q. Okay. Sir, I'm going to go ahead and have
6 one exhibit marked here by our court reporter, is to
7 be Exhibit No. 1. And this has all been provided to
8 defense counsel.
9
It's a letter I sent to
10 Mr. Pickering, one of R.T. Vanderbilt's lawyers,
11 back in February requesting to take the deposition
12 of a corporate representative or representatives, if
13 more than one nec --is necessary, who are the most
14 knowledgeable persons on -- on a bunch of categories
15 listed out in this letter. And after we have it
16 marked, I'm going to ask that it be passed over to
17 you so you can look at it.
18
(Exhibit No. 1 marked.)
19 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Now, Mr. Vanderbilt, do
20 you --do you believe that you've ever seen that
21 document before?
22 A. No, I don't think so.
2 3 Q. They never showed it to you?
24 A. (No audible response.)
2 5 Q. No? You were never shown that document?
1 content of Vanderbilt talc mined in the Balmat mine
h
2 other than you?
3 A. On the technical side, yes, certainly.
4 Q. So you're not the person most
5 knowledgeable on that topic, are you?
|
6 A. Not on the technical side, not
7 concerning - - 1mean that to say the non-asbestos
i
8 content for talc.
f
9 Q. Okay. I understand there's a controversy
10 there. We're going to agree to disagree on that
11 today. I understand you're going to allege that
12 R.T. Vanderbilt talc does not contain asbestos and I
13 am going to continue to alledge that it does. All
14 right? So I don't want to spend a whole lot of time
15 arguing about that.
16
No. 2: Are you the person most
17 knowledgeable at R.T. Vanderbilt about the health
j
18 hazards associated with asbestos exposure?
19 A. No.
20 Q. No. 3: Are you the person most
21 knowledgeable at R.T. Vanderbilt about the locations
22 of R.T. Vanderbilt talc mining operations, including
23 subsidiaries and related companies?
24 A. Well, I guess that's what I'm being
25 produced for, yes.
Page 23
Page 25 \
A. Well, I think I've seen some of the -- the
2 elements requested here; but I don't think I've seen
3 this actual letter, but I may have. I don't know.
4 Q. Well, what I'm asking you, sir, just so we
5 can be real clear on the record: Do you believe
6 that any of the lawyers from R.T. Vanderbilt showed
7 you that specific letter prior to --
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. --today?
10
You can't say.
11
Okay. Let's go over some of these
12 categories that I've asked R.T. Vanderbilt to
13 produce a corporate representative on.
14
Are you the person most knowledgeable
15 at R.T. Vanderbilt about the connection between talc
16 mined in the Gouvemeur Quadrangle and asbestos?
17 A. Well, I've never heard the
18 term "Gouvemeur Quadrangle." I'm not a technical
19 individual, so I can't talk to the technical side of
20 things. But I'm aware of some aspects of that, yes.
21 Q. Would you be the person most knowledgeable
22 of R.T. Vanderbilt on that topic?
23 A. Well, subject to what I just said.
24 Q. Okay. Do you think there's anybody at
25 R.T. Vanderbilt that knows more about the asbestos
1 Q. So you are the person most knowledgeable
2 at R.T. Vanderbilt about that one?
3 A. Well, among them, yes.
4 Q. Okay. Well, are you the most
5 knowledgeable person about No. 3 at R.T. Vanderbilt;
6 or is there somebody else that I ought to be talking
7 to that knows more than you?
8 A. No, I can talk to that.
9 Q. That's not what I asked you. Are you the
J
10 most knowledgeable human being at R.T. Vanderbilt on
11 No. 3?
i
12 A. Well, there are other people, of course,
?
13 who are just as knowledgeable as I am about this.
14 Q. Do you know why you've been produced in
15 response to this question, then?
f
16
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
|
17 A. Well, because I'm the corporate secretary
18 and I'm in the company and I know the subject.
19 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Okay. But there are
20 other people that know just as well, if not better
21 than you, right?
22 A. Well, certainly as well.
23 Q. Okay. So you very well may not be the
24 person most knowledgeable to No. 3?
25
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
1
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Q. (By Mr. McLeod) True?
1 Q. You weren't -- R.T. Vanderbilt's never
y A. I wouldn't consider myself the most
2 been concerned about asbestos at all. Is that your
|
3 knowledgeable person about anything in particular,
3 position?
f
4 but I know the subject.
4
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
s
5 Q. Okay. Do you think you're the person most
5 A. Of course there's been a concern about
f
6 knowledgeable about anything in my request for a
6 asbestos when we were accused of having products
f
7 corporate representative here today?
7 containing it.
|
8 A. Well, I know certain subjects.
8 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) What No. 7 asks is when
1
9 Q. Okay. What about OSHA and/or MSHA and/or 9 defendant R.T. Vanderbilt first learned of the
=
10 EPA compliance or non-compliance with threshold
10 health hazards o f--
\
11 limit values for respirable asbestos fiber at R.T.
11 A. Well, the answer is that nobody knows that
12 Vanderbilt's manufacturing, mining, milling,
12 question. It's been asked in discovery and
\
13 packaging, and distributing --distribution
13 whatever, and the answer is always that we don't
14 facilities? Are you the person most knowledgeable
14 know.
15 about that?
15 Q. Okay.
}
16 A. No, not on the technical side.
16 A. Because we were not producing asbestos
17 Q. You keep saying "no, not on the technical
17 products that --
!
18 side." What does that mean?
18 Q. Let me --
19 A. Well, I'm not a technical individual. I'm
19 A. --point to a document or a day which
20 not a scientist or a - an industrial hygienist,
20 indicates when we found out about asbestos.
21 medical doctor or anything like that.
21 Q. Okay. So, you --you wouldn't be the
22 Q. So the short answer would be no, you are
22 person most knowledgeable on that topic, correct?
23 not the person -
23 A. I'd be as knowledgeable as anyone else.
24 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. And let's just get something out in
25 Q. --most knowledgeable?
25 the open: I'm not going to interrupt you when
Page 27
Page 29
Okay. What about worker's
2 compensation claims filed by R.T. Vanderbilt
3 employees alleging asbestos-related diseases?
4 A. No, I'm not.
5 Q. What about R.T. Vanderbilt's membership in
6 various industiy organizations, trade associations?
7 And there are a few of them listed on there. Are
8 you the person most knowledgeable about membership
9 in those organizations?
10 A. Yes, I am.
11 Q. Okay. No. 7: Are you the person most
12 knowledgeable about when R.T. Vanderbilt first
13 learned of the health hazards associated with the
14 inhalation of asbestos fibers?
15 A. Yes and no.
16 Q. Explain.
17 A. Well, as we've agreed to disagree, there
18 is no asbestos in -- in -- in the Vanderbilt talc;
19 and because there isn't, we were not beating the
20 bushes to find information on the subject. And so
21 it's difficult to know when, if at all, we found out
22 about -
23 Q. Sure.
24 A. - asbestos, since we weren't concerned
25 with it.
........ .... :'i ................ .........
1 you're giving your answers. Please give me the
2 courtesy of not interrupting me when I'm asking my
3 questions. Okay?
4 A. Didn't know I had. I'm sorry.
5 Q. That's okay.
~
6
Are you the person most knowledgeable
7 about Category No. 8, warnings provided by R.T.
8 Vanderbilt to its talc customers about asbestos
9 content of their talc --their talc products through
f
10 documents, memos and warning labels or whatever
f
11 means?
{
12 A. No.
f
13 Q. Okay. Let's skip down a couple, anyway.
]
14 No. 11: Are you the person most knowledgeable
15 within the R.T. Vanderbilt Company about sales of
16 R.T. Vanderbilt talc products to the following
17 companies, including products sold, quantities,
r
18 years, specific talc products sold to the companies
j
19 listed below A through L?
[
20 A. Yes, I am.
jj
21 Q. No. 12: Are you the person most
22 knowledgeable about specific products manufactured ?
23 by the companies listed in Request No. 11 above that l
24 utilized R.T. Vanderbilt talc?
i
25 A. No.
8 (Pages 26 to 29)
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Q. Who would be the person most knowledgeable about No. 12 within R.T. Vanderbilt? 3 A. I don't think there is one. 4 Q. Why do you think that? 5 A. Well, because talc is a commodity 6 product. We generally weren't aware in detail what 7 our customers were doing with the specific products. 8 Q. You had no idea what was being done with 9 the talc that y'all sold after it left hands? 10 A. Oh, in general terms, we did, yes. 11 Q. Okay. You're not disputing that talc was 12 used as a component in joint compounds in this case, 13 are you? 14 A. I don't know about particular joint 15 compounds and whether talc was used in them. 16 Q. You have no idea about that? 17 A. No. 18 Q. No. 15: Are you the person most 19 knowledgeable at R,T. Vanderbilt about what year 20 R.T. Vanderbilt started distributing talc? 21 A. You would have to define the word 22 "distribute." 23 Q. Okay. Well, let me add to it, then. 24 Selling it, mining it, milling it? 25 A. Yes.
1 A. Yes.
|
2 Q. I understand Hugh, Sr. is deceased.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. Was he around at the time that
5 purchase happened?
6 A. Yes, he was. Hugh, Sr.
7 Q. Would he maybe know more than you do about l
8 that topic?
9 A. Well, cert --he would have, yes.
f
10 Q. Okay. So you are not the person most
P
11 knowledgeable about that topic, are you?
[
12 A. I thought you were referring to Hugh, Sr.
r
13 Q. No, I'm talking about junior.
[
14 A. No, I'm as knowledgeable or more
|
15 knowledgeable than Hugh, Jr.
\
16 Q. Okay. Are you the person most
17 knowledgeable about attempts, if any, made by R.T.
i
18 Vanderbilt to warn end-users -- end-users of the
P
19 hazards associated with using talc products they
20 sold or distributed?
21 A. Not in detail, no.
f
22 Q. So the answer is no?
p
23 A. Well, it would depend on the
;]
24 particularities, but...
|
25 Q. But what?
1
Page 31
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Q. You are the person most knowledgeable -- 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. --about the year that it started? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. You're not the person most knowledgeable 6 about the chemical and/or mineralogical makeup of 7 R.T. Vanderbilt talc products, are you? 8 A. No. 9 Q. You're not the most -- you're not the 10 person most acknowledgeable about the toxicology of 11 R.T. Vanderbilt talc, are you? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Or the carcinogenity of talc sold by R.T. 14 Vanderbilt? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Are you the person most knowledgeable 17 about the purchase of International Talc Company by 18 R.T. Vanderbilt? 19 A. At this point, probably, yes. 20 Q. What does that mean? 21 A. Well, I wasn't involved at the time; but 22 those who were are deceased. 23 Q. Is Hugh Vanderbilt still with the company? 24 A. You'll have to be more specific. 25 Q. Junior?
1 A. Which number are we -- are we on here?
f
2 Q. We're on 21, sir.
1
3 A. 21? Probably not, no.
f
4 Q. Are you the person most knowledgeable
1
5 about R.T. Vanderbilt's processing of their talc
p
6 into different formulas?
1
7 A. No.
|
8 Q. What about distributors of R.T. Vanderbilt
*
9 talc products, are you the person most knowledgeable I
10 about the different distributors that y'all used?
!
11 A. No.
P
12
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
1
13
MR. McLEOD: What's the basis?
p
14
MR. PICKERING: Just - I think
P
15 you're assuming facts not in evidence. I didn't
j
16 think you laid a foundation to talk about
f
17 distributors and what his knowledge is about
l
18 distributors, if any.
19 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Do you have any knowledge
20 about the distributors that R.T. Vanderbilt uses for
21 their talc products as in who they are and where
~
22 they are?
i;
23 A. Not in detail, no.
24 Q. Would you be the person most knowledgeable j.
25 at R.T. Vanderbilt to talk to about OSHA, MSHA
;
L- T--T
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and/or EPA violations or citations regarding the use
or presence of asbestos in R.T. Vanderbilt talc at
3 their mining, milling or distribution centers?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Who would know about that? Who would be
6 the person most knowledgeable on that topic?
7 A. I think probably John Kelse.
8
MR. PICKERING: Sorry, Matt. Which
9 number was that you --
10
MR. McLEOD: That was 24.
11
MR. PICKERING: Okay.
12 A. J-O-H-N, last name K-E-L-S-E.
13 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Got it. Thank you.
14
No. 25: The identity of all
15 insurance policies and the name or names of insurers
16 and the amount of coverage in place for liability
17 resulting from persons injured by R.T. Vanderbilt
18 talc products. Are you the person most
19 knowledgeable about that, No. 25?
2 0 A. 25? No.
21 Q. Who would know more than you about that?
22 Or who would be the person most knowledgeable, I
23 guess?
24 A. Well, there's a number of people. There
25 would be our chief financial officer Joe Denaro,
1 Q. They would be the people most
f
2 knowledgeable about the net worth?
j
3 A. Yes.
[
4 Q. Are you the person at R.T. Vanderbilt that
i
5 would be the person most knowledgeable about R.T.
j,
6 Vanderbilt's participation in NIOSH, EPA and/or OSHA j.
7 proceedings regarding the definition and regul -
|
8 regulation of asbestos fibers?
9 A. No.
|
10 Q. Who would know that?
|
11 A. That would be John Kelse again.
12 Q. Would Mr. Kelse also be the person most
13 knowledgeable about any allegations involving paid
14 travel and expenses - expenses for NIOSH and/or
15 OSHA employees and/or consultants to and from
"
16 meetings with R.T. Vanderbilt people, or can you
i
17 say?
18 A. Well, or the lack of them, yes, he would
19 be. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. You don't -- you're not the person
i
21 most knowledgeable about that topic --
22 A. No.
23 Q. --are you?
24
What about No. 31, are you the person
f
25 most knowledgeable about personal or political
Page 35
Page 37
D-E-N-A-R-O, and an individual in his department 2 called Jim McDonald, M-c-D-O-N-A-L-D. 3 Q. Anybody else? 4 A. No. 5 Q. No. 26: Are you the person most 6 knowledgeable about whether or not there are 7 asbestos exclusions in the previously referenced 8 insurance policies? 9 A. Not in detail, no. 10 Q. Who would know more than you about that? 11 Joe Denaro? 12 A. Well, the people I mentioned before and 13 insurance brokers, people like that. 14 Q. Are you knowledgeable about R.T. 15 Vanderbilt's net worth, sir? 16 A. Am I knowledgeable about R.T. Vanderbilt's 17 network? 18 Q. Net worth? 19 A. Net worth? 2 0 Q. Yes, sir. 21 A. No. 22 Q. Who would know about that? 23 A. The same people I mentioned before. 24 Q, Mr. Denaro and Mr. McDonald? 25 A. Yes.
r<*8&;
1 contributions, whether made by a political action 2 committee or personally or through some other source 3 to United States Senators or House of Representative 4 members from 1965 up till 1987? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Who would know that at R.T. Vanderbilt? 7 A. I guess that would be Hugh, Jr. Hugh 8 Vanderbilt, as in my name, Jr. Or Hugh... 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. Hugh Vanderbilt, Jr. 11 Q. Would you be the person most knowledgeable 12 at R.T. Vanderbilt about the identity of all R.T. 13 Vanderbilt personnel who worked in R.T. Vanderbilt 14 mines or their subsidiaries who have been diagnosed 15 with talcosis, asbestosis, lung cancer or 16 mesothelioma? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Who would know that? 19 A. John Kelse again. 20 Q. And finally, would you be the person most 21 knowledgeable about the identity of former NIOSH 22 and/or OSHA employees who have been hired either as 23 an employee or a consultant by R.T. Vanderbilt after 24 their employment with NIOSH or OSHA? 25 A. No.
10 (Pages 34 to 37)
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1 Q. Can you think of anybody who would know
1 A. No, I don't know exactly when.
f
that?
2 Q. Excuse me?
f
3 A. That would be John Kelse.
3 A. I don't know exactly when.
\
4 Q. Okay. Out of those 33 topics, I count
4 Q. Can you estimate for me the first time
f
5 just over a handful that you are the person most
5 that you laid eyes on that notice, along with the
f
6 knowledgeable about today. Anything that I didn't
6 attached subpoena duces tecum?
I
7 cover in here that you think you're going to be
7 A. Some time ago. I don't know.
I
8 testifying about as the person most knowledgeable
8 Q. Are you okay?
1
9 from R.T. Vanderbilt?
9 A. Yeah,
10
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
10 Q. Okay. Feeling all right?
11 A. I don't know.
11 A. (No response.)
12 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) You don't know?
12 Q. Feeling okay?
i
13 A. No.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I'm going to go ahead and mark Exhibit No.
14 Q. All right. Did you see it before today?
f
15 2. This is a copy of the notice for this
15 A. Yes.
1
16 deposition, along with an attached subpoena duces
16 Q. Did you see it last week?
I
17 tecum. If I could just get that marked as Exhibit
17 A. I think so, yes.
f
18 No. 2, I'll have her pass it over to you, sir.
18 Q. Were you given an opportunity to review
I
19
(Exhibit No. 2 marked.)
19 the subpoena duces tecum attached to it?
20
MR. McLEOD: Just for the record, at
20 A. Yes.
21 this time, I would like the previous depositions
21 Q. Did you make any effort whatsoever to find
22 that he's given in talc-related cases produced to my
22 any document responsive to any of the requests in
23 office immediately.
23 the subpoena duces tecum?
:
24
MR. PICKERING: I don't have them,
24 A. I discussed it with my attorneys, yes.
r
25 I'll make inquiry as to if they're around. I don't
25 Q. I didn't ask you that. Did you make any
j
Page 39
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have them and I've not been given any indication by
2 other counsel in this case of them, but I'll --I'll
3 make inquiry. I've asked for all of them before.
4 You ~ I've given you what I have. So, just one
5 that was taken very recently, I've not seen the
6 transcript yet.
7
Certainly you're entitled to that one
8 and we'll - we'll provide that one. Other than
9 that, I don't even know that others still exist,
10 Matt, so I can't agree to produce them. All I can
11 do is agree to make further inquiry.
12
MR. McLEOD: Well, he said they exist
13 and that his lawyers have them, so...
14
MR. PICKERING: Well, in all due
15 respect and fairness to us, we've not been his
16 lawyers for very long and you know that. I've --
17 I've told you, I've --I've given you what I have.
18 I will make further inquiry. I've made inquiry
19 before, I'll make further inquiry.
20 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Have you seen that
21 document before? I just handed it to you, sir.
22 You're holding a copy o f--
23 A. Yes, I have.
24 Q. Okay. When did you first see that
25 document?
1 effort to find any document responsive to any of
f
2 those requests?
f
3
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
f
4 I'll instruct you not to answer. That's
j>
5 argumentative. He answered the question, Matt. You f
6 obviously --
l
7
MR. McLEOD: What's your -- what's
j.
8 your basis for the instruction not to answer?
f
9
MR. PICKERING: It's argumentative.
f
10 You're arguing with him. He answered the question.
1
11
MR. McLEOD: Well, that's not a basis
f
12 for an instruction not to answer; and I just want to
13 have it clear on the record. I'm not trying to to
14 be a jerk.
I
15 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) I know you talked to your
f
16 lawyers about it. Did you do anything other than
17 talk to your lawyers in response to being served
|
18 with that subpoena duces tecum?
f
19 A. No.
|
20 Q. Do you know what a subpoena duces tecum
I
21 is?
|
22 A. Yes.
|
23 Q. What is it?
1
24 A. An instruction to produce documents.
|
25 Q. Responsive to the individual requests that
I
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are made?
-
A. Yes.
3 Q. Did your lawyers tell you to disregard it?
4
MR. PICKERING: Objection,
5 attorney-client privilege. Don't answer that.
6
MR. McLEOD: All right.
7
MR. PICKERING: In fairness, Matt,
8 can we attach a copy of our response at this point
9 as Exhibit 3 because we did respond. I don't want
10 the record to be --a big gap in the record here
11 where --
12
MR. McLEOD: I think you put that all
13 on the record in the beginning, but if you'd like to
14 mark it and attach it, that's fine with me.
15
MR. PICKERING: I would, just so that
16 it's --Exhibit 2 and Exhibit 3 then are -- are
17 together in the record. I'll hand the court
18 reporter a copy of the responses and objections we
19 filed to the subpoena duces tecum prior to the
20 deposition.
21
(Exhibit No. 3 marked.)
22 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Mr. Vanderbilt, when did
23 you find out about this deposition or find out that
24 this deposition was going to take place?
2 5 A. A week or two ago.
1 that's the question --
2 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Let me rephrase my
3 question.
4
Is the time of day that we scheduled
5 this deposition okay with you -
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. -9 :0 0 a.m.?
8
And do you have any objections to
9 being present here in Houston, Texas for this
10 deposition today?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Is this the first time you've been?
13 A. In Houston? No.
14 Q. I hear you might have a busy schedule
15 later on this month. Is that true?
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. You don't know your own schedule for the
18 rest of the month?
19 A. I don't know whether it's going to be
20 particularly busy.
21 Q. I hear you might be in trial later on this
22 month. Is there any truth to that rumor?
23 A. Possibly.
24 Q. Where might you be in trial later on this
25 month potentially?
Page 43
Page 45
Q. And who told you?
2 A. My attorneys.
3 Q. Do you remember specifically the name of
4 the individual that told you that this deposition
5 was going to take place?
6 A. Well, there was some negotiation about
7 dates, so it would have been one of several.
8 Q. Who?
9 A. The two individuals present.
10 Q. Mr. York and Mr. Pickering?
11 A. And maybe also Dennis Race.
12 Q. And what did they tell you when they told
13 you about this deposition? You just need to
14 schedule a time and place to do it?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Anything else?
17
MR. PICKERING: Objection to the
18 extent other than just talking about the -- the
19 logistics and scheduling the deposition, I'll
2 0 instruct you not to answer anything about
21 substantive things we talked about in preparation
22 for the deposition.
23
MR. McLEOD: I'm really not trying to
24 get at that one.
25
MR. PICKERING: Well, that's -
1 A. In California. 2 Q. San Francisco? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What kind of a case is that? 5 A. It's a case where an individual alleges 6 that --that he contracted mesothelioma. 7 Q. How? 8 A. From exposure to asbestos and 9 asbestos-containing materials. 10 Q. Are they alleging in that mesothelioma 11 case in San Francisco that one of the 12 asbestos-containing materials that may have induced 13 that mesothelioma is R.T. Vanderbilt talc? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And is that the case that you were just 16 deposed in up in New York? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. At Mr. Race's office? 19 A. Yes. No. Correction, no. 20 Q. Okay. It was at Akin, Gump in New York, 21 right? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Where? 24 A. The offices of Phelan, Reed & Priest. 25 Q. Okay. And that's in New York City?
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A. Yes. -4 Q. Do you know the name of the case or the 3 name of the individual who - who contracted 4 mesothelioma? 5 A. Yes. Haanstra. 6 Q. Can you spell that? 7 A. H-double A-N-S-T-R-A. 8 Q. H-A-A-N-S-T-R-A? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Do you have a first name? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Do you know the style of that case? 13 Haanstra versus R.T. Vanderbilt? 14 A. No. No, not offhand. 15 Q. Sir, what was the first thing you did when 16 you found out you would have to give this deposition 17 here today? 18 A. I don't know. 19 Q. Did you tell anybody: Hey, I've got to go 2 0 to Houston and give a deposition for R.T. 21 Vanderbilt? 22 A. Well, I'm sure I did, yes. 2 3 Q. Who did you tell? 2 4 A. Probably my secretary. 25 Q. Anybody else?
1 might have had with Mr. York or Mr. Pickering 2 specifically about this deposition testimony that 3 you're here to give today? 4 A. One or two. 5 Q. Well, which is it, one or two? 6 A. Two. 7 Q. And were both Mr. Pickering and Mr. York 8 present at both of those meetings? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Or participating in both of those meetings 11 I should say? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Were they conference calls? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Was it --well, when was the first meeting 16 you had with them specifically about this 17 deposition? 18 A. Yesterday. 19 Q. What time did you arrive in Houston 2 0 yesterday? 21 A. 10:00 o'clock. 22 Q. A.M.? 23 A. Yes. 2 4 Q. And when was your first meeting with 2 5 Mr, Pickering or Mr. York yesterday?
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Page 49
A. Well, I discussed it with my attorneys.
2 Q. Anybody else?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Nobody at R.T. Vanderbilt, other than your
5 secretary?
6 A. No.
7 Q- Is that correct?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. Prior to the deposition today, have you
10 met with anybody specifically to discuss this
11 deposition?
12 A. Prior to when?
13 Q. Prior to right now.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Who?
16 A. My attorneys.
17 Q. And you indicated to your left. Are you
18 talking about Mr. Pickering -
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. - and Mr. York?
21
Anybody else?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Either in person or by telephone.
24 A. No.
25 Q. Can you tell me how many meetings you
1 A. Over dinner. 2 Q. Where did y'all go? 3 A. Across the street. 4 Q. Remember the name of the place? 5 A. What was it called? The Strip Room. 6 Q. Strip House. How long did that meeting 7 last? 8 A. Over dinner. I didn't time it. 9 Q. Couple hours? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. When was the next meeting that you had 12 with Mr. Pickering and Mr. York about this 13 deposition? 14 A. This morning. 15 Q. And we started at 9:00 o'clock. What-16 what time did that meeting occur? 17 A. About 10 past 8:00. 18 Q. How long did it last? 19 A. Till the beginning of the deposition. 20 Q. Till you walked in that door? 21 A. Well, you're getting a little bit silly 22 now, aren't you? I mean, I walked down the 23 corridor, I mean before the deposition. 24 Q. I said something silly? 25 A. Well, before I walked in the door, I mean
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come on. z Q. Okay. Did you review any documents to 3 prepare for this deposition today, sir? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What did you review? 6 A. These exhibits here. 7 Q. Okay. And you're pointing to the notice 8 of the deposition with the attached subpoena duces 9 tecum. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And the letter? You didn't review the 12 letter before today, did you? I thought you told me 13 you'd never seen that before? 14 A. Well, I'd said I've seen some of the 15 elements listed in the - in the letter. 16 Q. Okay. But you did not review the letter 17 itself, did you? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Anything else? 20 A. I think an affidavit of mine. 21 Q. An affidavit? You reviewed an affidavit? 22 A. One of my affidavits, yes. 23 Q. And what was that affidavit pertaining to? 24 A. Pertaining to this case. 25 Q. Could you elaborate on that?
1 case.
1
2 Q. Okay. You looked at nothing else, no
f
3 other documents in preparation for this deposition
4 today?
1
5 A. No.
6 Q. Sir, does R.T. Vanderbilt have a document
1
7 repository?
[
8 A. We have documents that are in the custody
9 of our attorneys, yeah.
|
10 Q. Okay. What documents are those?
11 A. Documents relating to this particular
12 issue and all of the incidents thereto.
13 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't understand that answer
14 at all. Can you..
15 A. Well, relating to the accusation that
16 there's asbestos in R.T. Vanderbilt talc and all of
17 the matters and developments htat have arisen
18 because of that.
19 Q. And you say all these documents in -- are
20 in the possession of your lawyers, right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. How many documents are we talking about?
23 A. I don't know.
\
24 Q. Have you ever seen these documents that
25 are in the possession of your lawyers that relate
Page 51
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. A. Pertaining to the invoice history.
1 to -- to talc litigation?
2 Q. Is it the affidavit that is attached to
2 A. Some of them, yes.
3 R.T. Vanderbilt's motion for protection?
3 Q. And if you had to estimate for me, how
4 A. Yes.
4 many boxes of documents would that account for?
5 Q. Did you review anything else other than
5 Like if you looked at a banker's box like I've got
6 the notice and your - your affidavit in preparation
6 sitting on this chair next to me, how many banker's
7 for this deposition today? Any other documents?
7 box would that be?
8 A. I don't recall offhand. I don't think so.
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Okay. Was that reviewing done after you
9 Q. Would it be more or less than 50?
10 arrived here in Houston yesterday?
10 A. Probably would be that.
11 A. Yes.
11 Q. It would be at least 50 boxes?
12 Q. You didn't review anything back in
12 A. Yes, give or take.
13 Connecticut before you came down?
13 Q. Could it be as many as a hundred boxes
14 A. No.
14 that your lawyers have?
15 Q. Do you feel pretty prepared to give your
15 A. I don't know.
i
16 testimony today?
16 Q. At least 50, though?
17 A. Yes.
17
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
18 Q, When you went to these meetings with
18 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Is that fair to say?
19 Mr. Pickering and Mr. York, did you take any kind of
19 A. I'm estimating, yes.
20 notes?
20 Q. Okay. And do you know -- with any
21 A. No.
21 particularity, do you know what these documents
22 Q. The affidavit, what was important about
22 actually are? What they relate to?
23 the affidavit for you to review it in preparation
23 A. Some of them, yes.
24 for this deposition?
24 Q. Tell me about that.
25 A. Just remember what was going on in the
25 A. I don't understand your question.
14 (Pages 50 to 53 )
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Page 56 r
Q. Okay. I'm asking you about the documents
z that you told me that your lawyers have, these give
3 or take 50 boxes of talc-related documents that you
4 said are in their possession and I want to know with
5 some kind of particularity if you know what they
6 are, what they say, what they relate to.
7 A. They relate to the - the issues, the
8 lawsuits, the regulatory history, things like that.
9 Q. Are these documents that would normally be
10 produced in the course of litigation to lawyers
11 representing plaintiffs such as myself?
12
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
13 A. Some of them would be, yes.
14 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) And have these documents
15 that are in possession by your --are --are in the
16 possession of your lawyers actually been produced in
17 previous litigation in cases where people are
18 alleging injury as a result of breathing R.T.
19 Vanderbilt talc products?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And do you have some say in which
22 documents were produced and which are not?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And is that coordinated with your
25 attorneys?
1 let me narrow my question down a little bit.
?
2
Does R.T. Vanderbilt have any kind of
i
3 a central location where documents relevant to talc
1
4 litigation are kept and reviewed by plaintiffs'
!
5 lawyers such as myself should we be allowed to do so
6 by a court?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Have you ever had a plaintiffs firm --and
i
9 by "plaintiffs firm," I mean people -- lawyers
10 representing people saying that they were injured by
11 R.T. Vanderbilt's talc products actually come to
12 R.T. Vanderbilt and conduct a --what we call a
13 document review of your documents that you have?
I
14 A. No.
15 Q. That's never been done before?
i
16 A. No.
17 Q. If I told you that I wanted to fly down to
18 Norwalk and have a look around, would you have any
19 objections to that?
20 A. You'd have to talk to the attorneys.
21 Q. Well, would you mind?
22
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
23 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) I plan on sending a
24 request to your lawyers asking for a document review
25 in this case. Do you have any objections to that
Page 55
Page 57 g
A. Yes.
2 Q. Which attorneys are we talking about? Are
3 we talking about New York, Atlanta or Houston?
4 A. All of them.
5 Q. Okay. Well, where are these documents
6 that you --you've referred to? Where are they
7 located?
8 A. Well, they're located in Norwalk and
9 they're located in --on --electronically.
10 Q. Are you talking about corporate records?
11 A, That's part of it.
12 Q. Are you talking about corporate records
13 and say an invoice history, maybe sales records?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Is that what you're talking about?
16 A. That's part of it.
17 Q. But in any case, there's a large volume of
18 documents out there that are responsive to
19 allegations made by plaintiffs in talc litigation?
20
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
21 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Generally speaking?
22
MR. PICKERING: Same objection.
2 3 A. Related to the talc issue, yes.
24 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Okay. Well, what I was
2 5 asking you about specifically, does R.T. Van --and
--
1 yourself--
2
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
?
3 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) -- should they consent?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Wouldn't be inconvenient for you?
6 A. Well, it probably would be inconvenient,
7 yes, but...
8 Q. Okay. Do you know what a document
9 repository is when I use that --that term in a
10 traditional sense?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Like Johns-Manville, you've heard of the
13 Johns-Manville Company before, right?
r
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. They've got a great big document
16 repository where they keep documents relevant to
17 asbestos litigation and probably will do so in
18 perpetuity. Do you understand that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Does R.T. Vanderbilt have anything akin to
21 that -
22 A. No.
23 Q. -- anywhere?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Why not?
SSs>sS.sv?v CSav,?vCv.iviCSsss-sSss&.<%$sf.SCas>*svSsCsfvfvv^S.Cf-fi*svCSw.Ci.vsCssSvSffCssw.ssr.wsCv.?.w .
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A. Well, probably to begin with because we
1 marketing, yes.
\
z don't have asbestos in our products. Probably
2 Q. You did have a marketing program?
1
3 because when requested to produce documents, we
3 A. Not under that name, but yes.
4 produce them.
4 Q. Did you have some sort of program that
5 Q. Okay. Typically when you have a document
5 accounted for advertisement of your talc products?
6 repository, we have someone that is called a
6 A. Yes.
^
7 custodian of records. Do you understand that term
7 Q. Did that exist in the '50s and '60s?
t
8 as I'm using it?
8 A. I don't know.
?
9 A. Yes.
9 Q. Who would know?
10 Q. Would you have anybody out at R.T.
10 A. At this stage, certainly nobody would have
11 Vanderbilt that you would consider to be like a
11 firsthand knowledge.
12 custodian of records?
12 Q. Well, who - who would be the person most
f
13 A. No.
13 knowledgeable about that topic?
\
14 Q. Who is Carol Ruggiero?
14 A. About advertisements, probably Chris
;
15 A. She's an employee in the - - 1think it's
15 Davis. C-H-R-I-S, D-A-V-I-S, Davis.
16 the finance department of R.T. Vanderbilt Company.
16 Q. And what is Chris Davis' title?
17 Q. Finance department?
17 A. I don't know. She's in the advertising
18 A. (Nodding head.)
18 department, so I don't know.
19 Q. And would she be a person who would have
19 Q. Chris is a lady?
f
2 0 knowledge of all the documents that are kept at R.T.
20 A. Yes.
21 Vanderbilt as they relate to things like sales and
21 Q. Would Ms. Davis be knowledgeable about
1
22 marketing of talc products?
22 advertising to the companies that R.T. Vanderbilt
!:
23 A. She's aware of the sales records.
23 has admitted that they sold talc products to
|
24 Q. What about marketing?
24 identified in the discovery responses in the Victor
f
25 A. No.
25 Gruetzner case?
}
Page 59
P a g e 61 .j
Q. Who would have that information?
1 A. No.
2 A. Well, it would be various people over
2 Q. Who would be knowledgeable about that?
3 time.
3 A. I don't think anybody.
4 Q. Can I have some of their names, please?
4 Q. Why is that?
5 A. Well, the current individual who's the
5 A. Because you say advertising to the
I
6 vice-president of sales is Ken Kelly, K-E-L-L-Y.
6 companies, I don't know what --what that is or
7 Q. First name?
7 means.
8 A. Ken, K-E-N or Kenneth, K-E-N-N-E-T-H.
8 Q. Well, okay. What does Chris Davis do?
9 Q. VP of sales?
9 A. She keeps track of the --our advertising
10 A. Vice-president of sales.
10 budget and ads and so forth.
f
11 Q. Anybody else?
11 Q. And you understand generally what I mean
1
12 A. Well, there's the global manager of
12 when I'm talking about advertising, right?
13 mineral products. His name is Randall,
13 A. Yes.
i
14 R-A-N-D-A-double L, Johnson.
14 Q. It's -- it's an affirmative effort on
|
15 Q. Global mineral products, right?
15 behalf of R.T. Vanderbilt to actually sell their
1
16 A. Global sales manager.
16 talc product to a customer --
~
17 Q. Okay. Because R.T. Vanderbilt talc
17
MR. PICKERING: O bject-
|
18 products did not just sell themselves, did they?
18 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) --right?
'%
19 You guys had to make some effort to sell your
19
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
2 0 product, didn't you?
20 A. To the industry, yes.
21 A. Yes.
21 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Right.
22 Q. And that was done through aggressive
22
MR. McLEOD: I'm sorry, Wayne. I
i;
2 3 marketing and sales tactics, as would be true at any
23 just don't understand the objection of that one.
24 other company selling products, right?
24
MR. PICKERING: I think it's
f
25 A. I don't know about aggressive; but
25 argumentative. If he accepts your definition, he
;
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does. But I --
MR. McLEOD: Okay. All right.
3
MR. PICKERING: - I don't think you
i Q. Can you tell me your Social Security
F
2 number, please.
>
3 A. I don't know whether I have that offhand.
]
4 asked him that question.
4 No.
5 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Let me ask you this:
5 Q. You don't know it by heart?
6 Did --well, we'll do that later.
6 A. No.
7
What is your address, Mr. Vanderbilt?
7 Q. Are you married?
i
8 A. 30 Winfield Street, Norwalk, Connecticut.
8 A. No.
9 Q. Zip?
9 Q. Have you ever been?
10 A. 06855.
10 A. No.
3
11 Q. And what is your telephone number with
11 Q. Pardon?
12 area code?
12 A. No.
13 A. Area code 203.
13 Q. Any kids?
\
14 Q. Yeah.
14 A. No.
15 A. 853-1400.
15 Q. Have you ever been arrested?
16 Q. Do you have a driver's license?
16 A. No.
?
17 A. Yes.
17 Q- Were you bom on June 1st, 1955?
:
18 Q. Is it a Connecticut driver's license?
18 A. Yes.
19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Do you know the number?
19 Q. Where?
20 A. New York City.
21 A. No.
21 Q. And do you consider yourselfto be from
l
22 Q. Do you have it with you?
22 New York City?
23 A. Yes.
23 A. No.
24 Q. Would you mind reading off your number or
24 Q. Pardon?
25 handing it to your attorney so he can read it into
25 A. No.
k
Page 63
Page 65
the record?
2 A. 064822464.
3 Q. Have you ever held a driver's license in
4 any other state other than Connecticut?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Has your driver's license ever been
7 suspended or revoked for any reason ever?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you tell me how many times?
10 A. Once.
11 Q. Can you tell me why it was revoked?
12 A. Because I hadn't renewed it.
13 Q. Got revoked because it expired?
14 A. Well, I was driving without insurance,
15 valid insurance as well.
16 Q. Did you have -- did you get a ticket?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Part of your punishment for that bad
19 behavior was --was you lost your license?
20 A. Yes.
21
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
22 A. Suspended, yeah.
23 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) How long did you lose
24 your license for?
25 A. A month.
1 Q. Where are you from?
2 A. I'm from Connecticut.
\
3 Q. And did you grow up in Connecticut?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Where did you grow up?
?
6 A. I grew up in Europe.
r
7 Q. Any particular locality in Europe?
8 A. Switzerland. Gstaad, Switzerland. That's
9 G-S-T-double A-D.
i
10 Q. Right. I understand you were schooled in
11 the European system over there. Is that correct?
12 A. Largely, yes.
r
13 Q. You're not a medical doctor, are you?
\
14 A. No.
15 Q* You're not going to be able to make any
16 medical conclusions today, are you?
1
17 A. No.
18 Q. Do you have any training that pertains
1
19 specifically to asbestos disease?
p
20 A. Could you repeat the question, please?
21 Q. Do you have any training that pertains
i
22 specifically to asbestos-related diseases?
2 3 A. No.
1
24 Q. Do you know what disease can be caused by
1
2 5 asbestos exposure?
1
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A. Generally speaking, yes.
1 Q. You're not a lawyer, are you?
-
Q. What is your understanding of the diseases
2 A. I'm not called to the bar, no.
\
3 that can be caused by breathing an asbestos dust,
3 Q. Have you taken the bar exam?
j
4 generally speaking?
4 A. Yes.
j
5 A. Asbestosis, lung cancer and mesothelioma.
5 Q. Can you tell me what state you took the
1
6 Q. What was that last one?
6 bar?
7 A. Mesothelioma.
7 A. New York state.
1
8 Q. And how did you come by that knowledge?
8 Q. And did you pass it?
9 A. From - as a result of my employment.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. With R.T. Vanderbilt?
10 Q. How many times did you take it?
11 A. Yes.
11 A. Twice.
12 Q. Now, you're not a mineralogist.
12 Q. So you failed it the first time and you
13 A. No.
13 passed it the second time?
14 Q. You're not a metallurgist.
14 A. Yes.
1 5 A. No.
15 Q. Any reason that you're not a member of the
16 Q. Not a chemist.
16 New York Bar?
!
17 A. No.
17 A. Because I'm not in New York, I'm not
18 Q. No formal training in any one of those
18 practicing in New York.
19 areas, right?
19 Q. Is that just a personal decision?
2 0 A. No.
20 A. Yes.
f
21 Q. Okay. I understand you also attended the
21 Q. Sir, do you think a responsible company
|
22 London School of Economics, right?
22 takes necessary steps to attempt to protect their
23 A. Yes.
23 workers from known workplace hazards?
24 Q. You got your law degree in London,
24 A. Yes.
25 correct?
25 Q. Do you agree with me when I say a
Pa g e 67
Page 69 )
A. Yes. 2 Q. Can you tell me what year you matriculated 3 from the London School of Economics? 4 A. Oh, 1973 or '4. 5 Q. 73 or 74? 6 A. I don't remember. 7 Q. Okay. Were you a good student? 8 A. Good enough obviously, yeah. 9 Q. Did you have good grades when you were at 10 the LSE? 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. I understand after that, you got a Masters 13 in law at New York University, correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Do you remember what year you graduated 16 from NYU? 17 A. '83. 18 Q, How did you wind up deciding to get your 19 Masters in law? 20 A. Could you repeat the question? 21 Q. Why did you decide to get your Masters in 22 law, sir? 23 A. I'm not sure. 24 Q. Are you a member of the bar? 25 A. No. --!RW
1 responsible company that creates a hazard to the
2 public at large has a duty to take steps to control
3 that hazard?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Would you agree with me also that a
t
6 company that knowingly sells dangerous products
fi
7 should be held accountable if people get sick as a
8 result of that product?
9 A. As a general sense, yes.
10 Q. Do you think a responsible company would
11 take -- would correct its mistakes rather than try
12 and cover them up?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Sir, my understanding is that you've been
15 an employee of the R.T. Vanderbilt Company since
i
16 1984, right?
i
17 A. Yes.
!
18 Q. You've worked for them ever since?
?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you're still, as you sit here today,
21 an employee of R.T. Vanderbilt?
f
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Have you ever in your whole life had a job
i-
24 that was not with R.T. Vanderbilt?
25 A. No.
1
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Q. That is the sum total of your employment
1 because of talc exposure?
z over your entire lifetime? 3 A. Yes.
2 A. Mostly, yes.
?
3 Q. Would you say about 95 percent of those
1
4 Q. Never even a summer job in school or
4 lawsuits that you are in charge of managing are talc
|
5 anything like that?
5 related?
1
6 A. Oh, sure. I've been in --I worked on a
6 A. Yes.
I
7 kibbutz in Isreal and I was a volunteer for the - - 1
7 Q. Personal injury cases?
'i
8 mean, an intern at the Wilderness Society and things
8 A. Yes.
1
9 like that.
9 Q. What do you think the other 5 percent
10 Q. Okay. But your postgraduate employment
10 involve?
11 all consists of R.T. Vanderbilt?
11 A. The chemical products.
12 A. Yes.
12 Q. What kind of chemical lawsuits do y'all
13 Q. Your current position, is that
13 face?
1
14 vice-president and secretary, correct?
14 A. Not many. Again, usually personal injury,
=
15 A. Yes.
15 I guess.
J
16 Q. You are on the board of directors, right? 17 A. Yes.
16 Q. Sure. I'mjust talking about what kind of
f
17 chemicals?
18 Q. When you started at R.T. Vanderbilt in
18 A. Specifically, there's been carbon black
19 1984, were you an assistant to the vice-president,
19 and --and some others. I don't remember them
20 Mr. Fiederlein?
20 specifically.
21 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. And I'm correct when I say that
22 Q. Okay. And then sometime later after your
22 these --these talc lawsuits, these personal injury
2 3 first two years in '86, you got appointed to the
23 talc lawsuits wree going on when you arrived at the
1
24 position of director of environmental affairs, if
24 company in 1984? Is that correct?
5
2 5 I'm not mistaken. Is that right?
25 A. They had started, yes.
f
Page 71
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A. Yes. 2 Q. And in 1989, you became vice-president of 3 environmental affairs? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And then at some point, environmental 6 affairs just kind of fell off and you're now VP, 7 vice-president and secretary, correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Did I miss anything in there? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Is that an accurate portrayal of the 12 continuum of your employment? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Have your responsibilities at R.T. 15 Vanderbilt been the same since you arrived there in 16 1984? 17 A. Pretty much, yes. 18 Q. Can you explain what your responsibilities 19 are in your employment with the R.T. Vanderbilt 20 Company as vice-president and secretary? 21 A, Well, generally managing the product 22 liability claims at R.T, Vanderbilt Company and a 23 few other bits and pieces. 24 Q. Right. When you say "product liability 25 claims," are you talking about lawsuits filed
1 Q. Do you know exactly when those lawsuits
1
2 first started being filed against R.T. Vanderbilt?
3 A. Somewhere around that period.
4 Q. Well, was it in the '70s or was it in the
'i
5 '80s?
6 A. In the '80s, I think.
1
7 Q. Can you tell me how many such lawsuits are
8 currently pending against R.T. Vanderbilt at least
9 domestically in the United States?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Why not?
12 A. I don't have the exact number.
1
13 Q. Well, you are the manager of litigation
14 pertaining to product liability lawsuits for R.T.
15 Vanderbilt and specifically with regard to talc
1 6 lawsuits, right?
17 A. I haven't counted them up.
1
18 Q. Can you estimate for me how many there
19 are?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Are there 10,000? 22 A. No.
1
23 Q. Are there 5,000?
1
24 A. There may be a couple hundred or so.
2 5 Q. A couple hundred is all you think there
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are?
1 mineralogists that you've spent time with regard to
2 A. Yes.
2 talc litigation?
r
3 Q. Couple hundred individual plaintiffs
3 A. Well, Arthur Langer is one. And one of
f
4 bringing claims against R.T. Vanderbilt?
4 our retired mineralogists, Slim Thompson,
|
5 A. Couple hundred plaintiffs altogether.
5 T-H-O-M-P-S-O-N.
1
6 Q. Do you remember giving that lawsuit back
6 Q. And those people are both paid consultants
l
7 in November of last year where you said there are
7 of the R.T. Vanderbilt Company?
f
8 probably thousands of such lawsuits pending against
8 A. They're consultants, yes.
|
9 R.T. Vanderbilt?
9 Q. And they are paid. They're not doing it
10 A. I don't know whether I said they were
10 gratuitously?
11 pending. Over time, there have been more than are
11 A. They are paid.
12 pending.
12 Q. Okay. Can you tell me the name of
13 Q. All right. Fair enough. I might be wrong
13 industrial hygienists that you talk to regularly
14 on that.
14 about talc litigation?
15
Can you tell me --can you tell me
15 A. Well, John Kelse.
16 how many total lawsuits have been filed against R.T.
16 Q. Other than Kelse?
17 Vanderbilt alleging an asbestos-related injury as a
17 A. No.
r
18 result of talc exposure?
18 Q. He's the only one?
1
19 A. No.
19 A. Yes.
F
20 Q. Can you estimate for me?
20 Q. Okay. Any other experts that you talk to
|
21 A. Well, certainly thousands of plaintiffs.
21 with regard to talc litigation that participate in
22 Q. Beginning sometime in the early 1980s,
22 the defense of R.T. Vanderbilt?
1
23 according to your testimony?
23 A. No.
1
24 A. Yes.
24 Q. That's it, Kelse, Langer and occasionally
]
25 Q. Now, how much of your time is spent on
25 Mr. Slim Thompson?
f
Page 75
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these lawsuits, specifically the talc lawsuits, in
1 A. Yeah. Or actually Dr. Slim Thompson.
2 your employment at R.T. Vanderbilt?
2 Give him his due.
3 A. Most of it.
3 Q. Dr. Thompson.
f
4 Q. Say 90 percent of your time?
4
Do you talk to your lawyers about
5 A. Yeah.
5 these cases?
t;
6 Q. And how does --
6 A. Yes.
7 A. Between 80 and 90 percent.
7 Q. Okay. How much your time do you spend
8 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt
8 talking to your lawyers about talc litigation?
9 you.
9 A. Quite a bit.
10
How --how is that time spent? What
10 Q. Do you spend quite a bit of time these
!
11 do you do?
11 days traveling around giving depositions like the
i
12 A. Well, receiving the complaints, sending
12 one you're giving here today?
13 out the complaints, reviewing complaints, documents,
13 A. Well, I've given one recently, as you
f
14 et cetera.
14 know.
!
15 Q. You accept service at your headquarters in
15 Q. Okay. Sir, can you tell me how many of
!
16 Norwalk?
16 these cases where people are alleging
17 A. Well, we also have agents who receive
17 asbestos-related injuries as a result of exposure to
18 service around the countiy.
18 R.T. Vanderbilt talc products, can you tell me how
19 Q, Yeah. Okay. Do you spend time with
19 many of these cases have actually gone to trial?
20 expert witnesses as a part of your duties?
20 A. One.
;
21 A. Yes.
21 Q. Are you sure about that?
|
22 Q. Which experts do you spend time with?
22 A. No, actually you're right, there were a
f
23 A. Well, I've spent time with mineralogists
23 few others in California. So maybe something like
*
24 and industrial hygienists and so on.
24 four or five.
1
25 Q. Can you tell me the names of the
25 Q. Did those cases go all the way to
j
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verdict? Is that what you mean? A. Yes. 3 Q. So four or five total went to verdict? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Can you tell me how many cases started 6 trial and settled part of the way through? 7 A. I think there's one that I recall or that 8 I've heard. 9 Q. Okay. So to your -- to - to the best of 10 your knowledge in your capacity as the manager of 11 product liability litigation for R.T. Vanderbilt, 12 you're only aware of one lawsuit involving R.T. 13 Vanderbilt talc products where an asbestos injury 14 was alleged that settled after trial had commenced; 15 is that correct? 1 6 A. Yeah. 17 Q. Okay. These four or five cases that have 18 gone all the way to verdict, do you remember any 19 any of the verdicts in those cases, whether they 2 0 were good verdicts for R.T. Vanderbilt or bad 21 verdicts? 22 A. Yes, they were good verdicts. They 23 were --and --and defense verdicts. 24 Q. R.T. Vanderbilt won all four or five of 25 those cases?
1 A. G.
2 Q. N-E-G-A-M?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. Okay. And who has been the trial firm for
5 R.T. Vanderbilt in these cases that have gone to
6 trial?
7 A. Well, the one in --I can't remember the
8 firm that defended us in Tyler, Texas, but Akin,
9 Gump was the supervising firm. The firm in
10 California was Mark Garetty of Phelan, Reed &
11 Priest, although he wasn't of that firm then.
12 Q. Do you recall the most recent verdict in
13 an R.T. Vanderbilt case that you're aware of?
14 A. Well, that would be the California cases,
15 and that's...
16 Q. When was that?
17 A. That's back in the '90s.
18 Q. Now, you said there have been thousands of
19 claims brought against R.T. Vanderbilt since the
20 beginning of this litigation, correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. All right. Specifically pertaining to
23 asbestos-related injuries that were being alleged as
24 a results of talc products, right?
25
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
Page 79
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A. Well, we won the California cases through
2 JNOV.
3 Q. The judge substituted in his opinion for
4 that of the juiy, correct?
5 A. He said there was no case to answer.
6 Q. Even though the jury thought otherwise?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. All right. Any of those cases been in
9 Texas?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. The tire worker litigation, right?
12 A. No, actually it wasn't the tire worker
13 litigation.
14 Q. Is that not it? It was up in Tyler, Texas
15 as I recall, right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you remember who the plaintiffs lawyer
18 was in that case?
19 A. I forget his name.
20
THEVIDEOGRAPHER: Matt, five
21 minutes.
22
MR. McLEOD: Thank you, sir.
23 A. I think actually a name just -- one name
24 just started playing, Nagem, N-A-G-E-M.
2 5 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Nejam, N-E-J-A-M?
1 A. Well, amongst other things, they were -- 2 we weren't the only defendant, obviously. 3 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) And I'm not saying that 4 you were. I'mjust limiting my question to that 5 narrow scope of allegations. You understand that, 6 right? 7 A. Yeah. 8 Q. So, just so we're clear here, there have 9 been thousands of asbestos cases brought against 10 R.T. Vanderbilt where that was the allegation, 11 right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What happened to all those other cases 14 that R.T. Vanderbilt had filed against them? 15 A. Most of them were dismissed and some of 16 them were settled for nuisance value, and some of 17 them were settled. 18 Q. Do you have anything to do with the 19 decision as to whether or not a claim ought to be 20 settled by R.T. Vanderbilt? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Is that --you confer with your lawyers on 23 that issue? 24 A. I have a vote, yes. 25 Q. It's a vote situation?
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A. (No verbal response.)
1 "asbestos exclusions" before when we were talking
-
Q. Have you ever heard of a case called the
2 about the policies.
3 Newton Gandy versus ABCO Industries case?
3 A. Yes.
1
4 A. Yes.
4 Q. What does that term mean to you, sir?
5 Q. What about Donna Allen versus ABCO
5 A. That asbestos is not covered under the
i
6 Industries?
6 insurance policy.
7 A. No.
7 Q. So if it were determined that R.T.
8 Q. What about Lionel Garcia versus ABCO
8 Vanderbilt talc did in fact contain asbestos, R.T.
9 Industries, have you heard of those cases?
9 Vanderbilt would be on the hook rather than CNA,
10 A. Not specifically, no.
10 correct?
i
11 Q. You have heard of Gandy because that's
11 A. Yes.
f
12 what Gruetzner was in before got settled out,
12 Q. And that would be bad for R.T. Vanderbilt,
r
13 correct?
13 wouldn't it?
i
14 A. Yes.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. We talked a little while ago about
15 Q. How do you spend the rest of your time
16 R.T. Vanderbilt insurance carriers CNA and Hartford? 16 when you're not managing talc lawsuits?
17 A. Yes.
17 A. I review documentation, writing, pending
18 Q. Have you seen the policies with your own
18 approve things, that sort of thing, editing.
19 eyes?
19 Q. Do you edit any studies?
|
20 A. Yes.
20 A. No.
21 Q. Do you have pretty easy access to those
21 Q. Do you edit MSDS documents?
[
22 policies?
22 A. I probably have looked at some in the
23 A. Yes.
23 past, but not recently.
j
24 Q. Have you produced those to me in this
24 Q. Okay. Has that ever been a part of your
25 case?
25 job, to edit MSDS language that goes into MSDS
Page 83
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A. I don't know. 2 Q. Well, I'll represent to you that you 3 haven't. Would you mind producing those policies to 4 me? 5 A. You'd have to talk to the attorneys. 6 Q. Would it be unduly burdensome for you if I 7 asked your attorneys to go ahead and get me a copy 8 of those cases or those --those policies? 9 A. Well, subject to relevance and so on, it 10 would be quite onerous to copy them all, yes. 11 Q. It would be onerous in the copying of 12 those policies? 13 A. Well, there are a lot of years involved. 14 Q. Okay. How much paper are we talking 15 about? 16 A. Oh, I don't know. 17 Q. So you have no idea whether it's onerous 18 or not, do you? 19 A. It's quite a stack. 20 Q. A foot high? 21 A. Yes. And probably more than that. 22 Q. And that's onerous? 23 A. Well, you have to take everything apart 24 and put everything back together again. 25 Q. Okay. We mentioned a term called
1 sheets pertaining to R.T. Vanderbilt talc products?
2 A. To comment on, yes.
f
3 Q. The answer is "yes"?
4 A. In the past, I've done that, yes.
5 Q. Okay. When's the last time you did
j
6 something like that?
7 A. Oh, I can't remember. Over 10 years ago.
j
8 Q. Okay.
1
9
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Matt?
10
MR. McLEOD: Yes. Let's change tapes
11 real quick.
r
12
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're olf record
13 at 10:24, end of Tape 1.
|
14
(Recess taken.)
}
15
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're on record at 1
16 10:40, beginning of Tape 2.
f
17 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Mr. Vanderbilt, are you
18 ready to continue on?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. We just had a little short brake, 10,15
f
21 minutes or so. What did you do on the break,
|
22 Mr. Vanderbilt?
23 A. Well, I went to the bathroom and I
}
24 consulted my attorneys.
i
25 Q. Did you look at any documents on the
>
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1 break?
-
A. No.
3 Q. Discuss your testimony on the break?
4
MR. PICKERING: Objection,
5 attorney-client privilege.
6
MR. McLEOD: Did you instruct him not
7 to answer?
8
MR. PICKERING: Yes.
9
MR. McLEOD: Okay.
10 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Sir, we were -- well,
11 let's move on. Before the time when you arrived at
12 the R.T. Vanderbilt Company, was there someone else
13 working in the position that you now have?
14 A. No.
15 Q. So that was a position created for you?
16 A. Well, in terms of reviewing the cases,
17 no. In terms of dealing with the talc issue, yes,
18 there was.
19 Q. Who was that?
2 0 A. A1 or Allan, A-double L-A-N, I think,
21 middle initial M. Harvey, H-A-R-V-E-Y.
22 Q. Mr. Harvey. And can you briefly outline
23 what Mr. Harvey's involvement with the -- let's call
24 it the talc tremolite issue was?
25 A. Well, his job was basically to work with
1 way or the other, can you?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Thank you.
4
So that was Mr. Harvey's full-time
5 job, was to convince OSHA and NIOSH that talc did
6 not contain asbestos as it was mined and distributed
7 by R.T. Vanderbilt.
8
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
9 A. I'm not sure whether it was his full-time
10 job, but it was his primary job.
11 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) That was the focus of his
12 employment at R.T. Vanderbilt?
13
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
14 A. At that point, yes.
15 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) What did Mr. Harvey do
16 once you assumed the --well, scratch that.
17
Did -- did his job ever change at
18 R.T. Vanderbilt or was that always his - the main
19 focus?
20 A. No. He's been a --he was a biochemist by
21 training and he'd been doing other things.
22 Q. I mean, after you arrived at the company,
23 did his job ever change?
24 A. No.
2 5 Q. When did he retire?
Pa g e 87
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OSHA and NIOSH - O-S-H-A and N-I-O-S-H - to 2 convince them that our talc did not have asbestos in 3 it. 4 Q. And how did he go about doing that? 5 A. Well, he provided them with information. 6 Q. What type of information? 7 A. Analysis of our talc and documentation, 8 and then worked with NIOSH when they did a study of 9 our talc, and... 10 Q. Analysis of talc performed by R.T. 11 Vanderbilt? 12 A. And its consultants, yes. 13 Q. And by "consultants," you mean people 14 hired by R.T. Vanderbilt, correct? 15 A. Mineralogists and analysts, yes. 16 Q. Mr. Harvey ever meet with and discuss 17 with - did he ever meet with personally OSHA and 18 NIOSH personnel, to your knowledge? 19 A. I think he did, yes. 20 Q. Was that, in fact, a pretty frequent 21 occurrence for Mr. Harvey when he would do so? 22 A. I don't know how frequent it was. 23 Q. You couldn't say one way or the other? 24 A. I wasn't there. 25 Q. So, following from that, you can't say one
1 A. I think 1986.
2 Q. Who is your immediate supervisor?
3 A. Roger Price.
4 Q. And is he currently president of R.T.
5 Vanderbilt?
!
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So the only personal you really answer to
8 is --is him, or is that not a fair an --fair
9 statement?
10 A. I answer to a lot of people, but he's my
11 immediate supervisor.
12 Q. You report directly to Mr. Price?
|
13 A. Yes.
i
14 Q. Okay. So you're a pretty high ranking
F
15 employee of the R.T. Vanderbilt Company, aren't you? 1
16 A. Yes.
r
17 Q. You're on salary?
F
18 A. Excuse me?
i
19 Q. Do you draw a salary -
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. - from R.T. Vanderbilt?
22
Can you tell us what that is on an
f
23 annual basis?
1
24
MR. PICKERING: Objection. What's
1
25 the relevance of his salary? I mean, it's one thing
|
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-1 to get his driver's license and Social Security, we
1 Q. Okay. In the $80,000 range?
22
- all do that. I understand why you do that for
2 A. Yeah.
3 background. But I don't see the relevance of asking
3 Q. Less than 90?
4 him his salary.
4 A. Yeah.
5
MR. McLEOD: Well...
5 Q. And that's your base salary?
6
MR. PICKERING: I'll - I'll - I'll
6 A. Yeah.
7 instruct you not to answer that, Paul, if you don't
7 Q. Okay. Thank you.
i
8 feel comfortable answering that question.
8
Do you, from time to time, receive
9
MR. McLEOD: With all due respect,
9 bonuses from the R.T. Vanderbilt Company?
10 Wayne, it's not a proper basis to instruct a witness
10 A. Yes.
11 not to answer a question based on relevance.
11 Q. And are those performance based?
12
MR. PICKERING: W ell-
12 A. In part, yes.
13
MR. McLEOD: Now, if that's --you
13 Q. Are they discretionary?
14 can object and that's fine, but -
14 A. Yes.
15
MR. PICKERING: Well -
15 Q. To whose discretion are your bonuses?
16
MR. McLEOD: --I don't believe you
16 A. Excuse me?
17 have a foundation to instruct him not to answer.
17 Q. Who -- who has discretion over what your
18 I'm not invading any privilege areas here, nor am I
18 bonuses are?
19 seeking to.
19 A. The chairman and the president of R.T.
20
MR. PICKERING: No, but it's
20 Vanderbilt Company.
21 extremely personal information. He's here as a
21 Q. When you said chairman and president, are
22 corporate representative. I --
22 we talking about Mr. Price?
23
MR. McLEOD: Okay.
23 A. The president is Mr. Price, yes.
24
MR. PICKERING: To ask him how much
24 Q. Okay. So it's up to him?
25 money he makes, that is not the best proffer. If
25 A. Yeah.
Pa g e 91
Page 93 1
you want to get the judge on the phone, we can stop
2 and get the judge on the phone and let Judge
3 Davidson decide if it's something you ought to be
4 entitled to go into.
5
MR. McLEOD: Let me ask you
6 something: If it's proper for defense lawyers in
7 this litigation to ask my plaintiffs what their
8 monthly income is, why is it not proper to ask a
9 corporate representative of the R.T. Vanderbilt
10 Company what his monthly income is?
11
MR. PICKERING: Well, that's silly
12 because your clients are putting at issue their lost
13 income, their --their lost wages, things like that,
14 and measure of damages. He --Mr. Vanderbilt's not
15 suing for anything.
16
MR. McLEOD: I'm not going to argue
17 with you. You - you've objected to my question.
18 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Mr. Vanderbilt, I don't
19 mean to make you uncomfortable by asking you that
20 question. I think it does have some relevant
21 factors. Are you uncomfortable with disclosing your
22 salary --
23 A. I'd rather not.
24 Q. Okay. Would you mind doing it anyway?
25 A. It's in the 80 thousands.
1 Q. Can you tell us in relation, in general
2 terms - you don't have to give me an exact 3 number - how - how those bonuses compare to your V
4 annual salary when you do receive them?
5 A. Oh, they're a fraction of it.
6 Q. Do you receive other than --well, how
7 often do you receive bonuses when you do from R.T.
8 Vanderbilt?
9 A. It's an end-of-year bonus.
10 Q. One a year?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What are these bonuses based on? Are they
13 based on company profitability?
14 A. In part, yes.
15 Q. And what else?
16 A. Profitability, performance, seniority, I
17 guess.
*
18 Q. Do you have any ownership interest in R.T.
19 Vanderbilt?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Pardon?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Do you own any stock in R.T. Vanderbilt?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Do you receive, other than your base
'
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-1 salary and any bonuses we've discussed, any other
1 Q. R.T. Vanderbilt is indeed headquartered in
|
- kind of financial consideration for your employment
2 Norwalk, Connecticut, correct?
f
3 at R.T. Vanderbilt?
3 A. Yes.
4 A. No.
4 Q. Started out in New York City, if I'm not
I
5 Q. Do you have good feelings towards your
5 mistaken?
6 employer?
6 A. Yes.
7 A. Yes.
7 Q. Was that in 1916?
8 Q. You're a pretty proud employee of the R.T.
8 A. Yes.
9 Vanderbilt Company?
9 Q. Was it begun by your grandfather Robert
10 A. Yes.
10 Thurlow Vanderbilt?
11 Q. It is a family company after all, right?
11 A. Yes.
12 A. Yes.
12 Q. And is it now today, as we sit here, a
13 Q. In the truest sense, it is run by
13 worldwide company or an international company at
14 Vanderbilts and owned by Vanderbilts, correct?
14 least?
15 A. Well, it's not run by Vanderbilts, but
15 A. It's an international company, yes.
16 it's owned by Vanderbilts.
16 Q. Can you tell me, sir --we've already
17 Q. It's owned by the Vanderbilt family?
17 discussed the ownership of the company and only
18 A. Yes.
18 Vanderbilt family members are shareholders in the
19 Q. However, you do not have any ownership
19 company. Can you tell me the names of the
20 interest in R.T. Vanderbilt?
20 Vanderbilt family members that currently work for
21 A. No.
21 R.T. Vanderbilt?
22 Q. Can you tell me: Who does own R.T.
22 A. That would be my cousin Hugh, Jr. and
23 Vanderbilt?
23 myself
24 A. Well, my father and Hugh Vanderbilt, Jr.
24 Q. Are there other members of the R.T. - or
25 and a few other family members.
25 of the Vanderbilt family that have worked for R.T.
P a g e 95
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Q. Who would those people be?
1 Vanderbilt in the past?
2 A. His sisters.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Whose sisters?
3 Q. Other than Hugh, Sr. and R.T. Vanderbilt
4 A. Hugh, Jr.'s sisters.
4 himself?
5 Q. And their names would be what?
5 A. Yes.
f
6 A. Linda and Laura.
6 Q. Can you tell me who those individuals are?
^
7 Q. Linda Vanderbilt?
7 A. Well, there's Hugh Vanderbilt, Sr.,
8 A. Yes.
8 there's Frederick Bedford Vanderbilt, there's his
9 Q. Laura Vanderbilt?
9 son Frederick Vanderbilt, and then there's Bucky,
10 A. No, it's Linda Ernst and Laura Allen.
10 B-U-C-K-Y, Allen, A-double L-E-N.
11 E-R-N-S-T, and Allen, A-double L-E-N.
11 Q. Did you say A-N?
12 Q. Thank you.
12 A. A-double L-E-N.
13
And what is your father's name?
13 Q. Thank you. Bucky?
14 A. Robert.
14 A. Bucky Allen, yes.
15 Q. Vanderbilt?
15 Q. How did Mr. Allen come to be involved in
16 A. Yes.
16 R.T. Vanderbilt Company?
17 Q. Okay. Are those the only people with any
17 A. He's the husband of Linda Allen.
|
18 real ownership interest in R.T, Vanderbilt?
18 Q. Now, that makes sense.
:
19 A. Yes.
19
How many people are on the board of
!
20 Q.. Nobody else has a piece of the pie?
20 directors currently?
'
21 A. No.
21 A. Currently, about seven.
22 Q. Are you the person most knowledgeable in
22 Q. Can you tell me when Hugh Vanderbilt, Jr.
;*
23 the corporate structure and organization of R.T.
23 went to work for the R.T. Vanderbilt Company?
24 Vanderbilt?
24 A. Quite a while ago. Certainly before me.
25 A. Yes. ' ... .......
. ..
25 No, I don't know what particular year. ---- - ---- -------------------- J
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Q. You can't tell me?
1 Q. Do they keep track of the litigation
|
-
A. No.
2 pending against R.T. Vanderbilt?
1
3 Q. Can you tell me if it was in the '50s,
3 A. They hear about it.
|
4 '60s, 70s?
4 Q. Is that something that the board of
f
5 A. Certainly in the 70s. Probably had
5 directors is concerned with?
^
6 summerjobs before that.
6 A. Yes.
i
7 Q. How old is Hugh, Jr.
7 Q. Is the talc asbestos issues something that
8 A. 50.
8 they've been concerned with, in fact, for a long
9 Q. He's 50 years old?
9 time?
10
Can you -- can you tell me when Hugh
10 A. Since it started, yes.
t
11 Vanderbilt, Sr. passed away?
11 Q. When did it start?
|
12 A. Three or four years ago.
12 A. Well, the best date is 1972,1guess.
13 Q. And Frederick Bedford Vanderbilt no longer
13 Q. And what happened in 1972?
f
14 works for company, I understand.
14 A. OSHA promulgated an asbestos standard.
1
15 A. No.
15 Q. That included regulation for all forms of
f
16 Q. Is he still living?
16 tremolite, actinolite, anthophyllite and other
|
17 A. No.
17 commercial forms of asbestos, correct?
1
18 Q. He's deceased. Okay.
18 A. Well, not exactly. They stated - they
f
19
What about his son Frederick
19 gave for three --for the three commercial forms of
t
2 0 Vanderbilt?
20 asbestos, they provided the specific names; but for
[
21 A. No, he no --he's still living, but he no
21 the three others, including tremolite, they just
^
22 longer works for the company.
22 listed it as an unqualified tremolite.
:
23 Q. What did Frederick Vanderbilt, the son, do
23 Q. They just said tremolite, anthophyllite
24 for R.T. Vanderbilt?
24 and actinolite.
25 A. I think he was personnel manager.
25 A. Yes.
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Q. How old is he? 2 A. He's older than I am. I guess he's 3 somewhere in the range of 10 years older than I am. 4 Q. Okay. Would he be somebody who was 5 knowledgeable about people who had held past 6 positions at R.T. Vanderbilt? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Is he still --well, where does he live? 9 A. Florida. 10 Q. Do you know where? 11 A. In the Tampa area. 12 Q. Do you have his contact information? 13 A. Yeah. 14 Q. And you could provide that to your lawyers 15 if necessary? 1 6 A. Yes. 17 Q. That wouldn't be onerous? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Okay. What is the function of R.T. 20 Vanderbilt's board of directors? 21 A. To oversee the company. 22 Q. And what does that entail? 23 A. Reviewing the activities of the company 24 and its products, processes, personnel and what have 25 you.
1 Q. Right?
j
2 A. Yes.
!
3 Q. Okay. And that was regulated beginning in
j
4 1972, correct?
5 A. Well, I mean, that's the dispute. If it's
j
6 not asbestos, it doesn't come under the asbestos
i
7 standard.
!
8 Q. In 1972, it came under the asbestos
I
9 standard, didn't it?
!
10 A. Well, there was a dispute about that.
^
11 Q. Was it regulated under the asbestos
|
12 standard in 1972 or wasn't it?
[
13
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
f
14 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Did you not understand my
15 question?
16 A. That's what the dispute is about.
17 Q. Okay. I understand there's a dispute.
18 But as of the year 1972, when OSHA was promulgated, f
19 tremolite was regulated, right?
20 A. Well, their intention, as -- as later
21 became clear, was uncertain and unclear at the time
22 that they knew difference between asbestiform and
23 nonasbestiform minerals.
24
MR. McLEOD: I'm going to object to
25 the nonresponsiveness of your answer and move to
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strike it.
1 R.T. Vanderbilt about that subject, in your opinion?
A Q. (By Mr. McLeod) If you would just - you
2 A. Well, in terms of the numbers, yes.
f
3 know, I - 1understand your ~ your - your line of
3 Q. The percentage of total revenue gained by
4 thought here. But in 1972, was tremolite regulated
4 selling talc, he's the guy I need to talk to about
5 under OSHA?
5 that?
6
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
6 A. Yes.
7 A. Well, at some point, they thought it was,
7 Q. Do you have an opinion on being -- on what
8 yes.
8 being classified as an asbestos-containing product
i
9 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) And did that point start
9 would do to R.T. Vanderbilt's talc sales?
|
10 in 1972?
10 A. It would close them down, obviously.
11 A. I don't know.
11 Q. R.T. Vanderbilt has several wholly-owned
12 Q. You don't know. Is my question not clear?
12 subsidiaries, do they not?
13 A. I just explained, they --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I heard what you said, but that's not what
14 Q. Is Dixie Clay a subsidiary?
15 I'm asking.
15 A. Dixie Clay Company, yes.
16 A. Well, that was the issue.
16 Q. Is Standard Minerals a subsidiary?
17 Q. Okay. I'm not going to argue with you.
17 A. Standard Mineral Comp - Corporation, yes.
18
Can you tell me who is on the
18 Q. Thank you.
19 Vanderbilt board of directors, the seven
19
Is Vanderbilt Minerals a subsidiary?
20 individuals?
2 0 A. Vanderbilt Minerals Corporation, yes.
21 A. Hugh Vanderbilt, Jr., Roger Price, Joseph
21 Q. How about Vanderbilt Chemical?
22 Denaro, my father Robert Vanderbilt, Donald Gorman, 22 A. Vanderbilt Chemical Company is a
23 D-O-N-A-L-D, capital G-O-R-M-A-N, Dennis Race and 23 subsidiary, yes.
j
24 myself.
24 Q. Is there a Vanderbilt Export Corporation?
25 Q. Dennis Race is also R.T. Vanderbilt's
25 A. Yes.
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lawyer, right?
2 A. Outside counsel, yes.
3 Q. Were you agreeing with me or disagreeing
4 with me?
5 A. He's the outside counsel.
6 Q. Okay. But he is R.T. Vanderbilt's -- one
7 of R.T. Vanderbilt's lawyers?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you.
10
And I asked you --I touched on it
11 before, I can't remember how you answered. Are
12 you --are you aware of what R.T. Vanderbilt's net
13 worth is?
14 A. No, I don't know the specifics.
15 Q. You have no idea?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Who would know that?
18 A. I think we covered that. Joseph Denaro.
19 Q. You're right, we did cover that.
20
Can you tell me what percentage R.T.
21 Vanderbilt's sales currently pertain just to talc?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Who would know that?
24 A. Oh, probably Joseph Denaro again.
25 Q. Is he the person most knowledgeable with
1 Q. Is that a wholly-owned subsidiary of R.T. 2 Vanderbilt? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Vanderbilt World Trade Corporation, is 5 that a wholly-owned subsidiary? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Gouvemeur Talc Company, is that a 8 wholly-owned subsidiary? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Let's just talk about talc for a while. 11 When did R.T. Vanderbilt get into the talc business? 12 A. In 1947 and'48. 13 Q. Is that when Gouvemeur Talc Company was 14 begun? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And is Gouvemeur Talc Company still going 17 strong today? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Do you have any idea of the annual sales 2 0 produced just from Gouvemeur Talc Company? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Don't have any idea about the revenue they 23 generate? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Who would know that? Is that Denaro?
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A. Yes.
-
Q. I'm going to catch on pretty soon.
3
And where is Gouvemeur Talc Company
4 located?
5 A. Outside Gouvemeur, New York, near
6 Belmont.
7 Q. And it operates on the Gouvemeur talc
8 deposit, correct? Do you know what I mean?
9 A. Runs talc, yes, in the ~ in the area,
10 yes.
11 Q. I'm sorry?
12 A. Runs talc in the area, yes.
13 Q. And I --I used this term earlier. Are
14 you just completely unfamiliar with geological
15 surveys that refer to the area where Gouvemeur talc
16 is situated as the Gouvemeur Quadrangle?
17 A. Well, I've never heard the name used.
18 Q. Never have?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Never read any documents that refer to
21 that term?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Is all the talc mined by Gouvemeur Talc
24 Company in the same area?
25 A. Yes.
1 mine.
I
2 Q. Gotcha. Did they --did they at one time
j
3 operate more than one underground talc mine?
f
4 A. Not to my knowledge.
5 Q. Would you be the person most knowledgeable
6 about that?
7 A. About the history? No.
8 Q. About the history of Gouvemeur Talc
9 Company, you are not the person most knowledgeable
10 about that?
11 A. Not about the underground mines, no.
12 Q. Okay. Who -- who would be?
13 A. Well, I guess it would be the
f
14 vice-president and general manager of the Gouvemeur f
15 Talc Company, which is Dana Putman.
t
16 Q. Uh-huh. Is Mr. Putman available for
J
17 deposition should I require it?
18 A. He's available.
19 Q. Still employed by R.T. Vanderbilt?
i
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Still working at the mine up in Balmat?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Gouvemeur Talc --do all the pits
24 currently operating at Gouvemeur Talc operate on
25 the same deposit of talc?
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Q. Within what, a mile --well, just how
1
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
|
2 big --how big in square miles is the area where
2 A. I'm not a geologist. I shouldn't get into
3 Gouvemeur Talc Company operates?
3 all...
?
4 A. Well, there are different pits. I'm not
4 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) If you know. If you
\
5 sure how many miles they are one from the other, but
5 don't know, that's fine.
I
6 they -- they are some distance from each other.
6 A. No.
1
7 Q. And you mentioned "pits." By "pits," do
7 Q. You don't know?
J
8 you mean open pit mining facilities?
8 A. (No verbal response.)
}
9 A. Yes.
9 Q. Have there --there have been other
I
10 Q. That's where you just break through the
10 companies that conducted talc mining operations in
f
11 ground's surface and -- and dig the talc right up
11 areas adjacent to the Gouvemeur Talc Company
12 off the ground, right?
12 through the years, have there not?
i
13 A. Well, you have to get through under -
13 A. Yes.
j
14 overburden first. But yes.
14 Q. Do you know the names of any of those
i
15 Q. Thank you.
15 companies?
16
Does Gouvemeur Talc also operate
16 A. Well, the specific one is International
17 mines in the traditional sense that most people
17 Talc Company.
|
18 think about miners walking around with a little
18 Q. That's one. Are there others that you're
\
19 light on their helmet underground?
19 aware of?
2 0 A. Not anymore.
20 A. Not currently.
1
21 Q. Used to?
21 Q. Not currently? What do you mean by that?
22 A. Excuse me?
22 A. Well, at this point, Gouvemeur Talc
2 3 Q. Did they used to?
23 Company is the sole remaining talc mine.
24 A. They used to have a talc mine that was
24 Q. Right. And I know that. But is it not
25 underground, yes. Now it's only a pyrophyllite
25 true that over the years Gouvemeur Talc Company
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basically acquired, bought and purchased, whatever you want to call it, all of the other talc mining 3 operations in that area? 4 A. No. 5 Q. What's not true about that? 6 A. Gouvemeur Talc Company purchased the 7 assets of one particular company, International Talc 8 Company. 9 Q. And that is the only company that has been 10 purchased or acquired or in any other corporate 11 terminology that you want to use, merged with 12 Gouvemeur Talc? 13 A. The assets, scheduled assets were 14 purchased, yes. 15 Q. Have you ever heard of a company called 16 St. Joe's, St. Joe Minerals? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Okay. What did they do? 19 A. I believe they mine zinc or mined zinc. 20 Q. Okay. Did Gouvemeur ever acquire them? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Did R.T. Vanderbilt ever acquire them? 23 A. No. 24 Q. They still mining up the zinc? 25 A. I'm not sure that St. Joe is, but I think
1 yes.
|
2 Q. How is --how did it come to be that
|
3 International Talc was purchased by Gouvemeur Talc?
4 A. Well, I don't know what the original
5 impetus is, but R.T. Vanderbilt Company wanted to
|
6 have the talc reserves of International Talc Company
f
7 and I guess we offered to buy them and negotiated
8 and came to a deal.
f
9 Q. To your knowledge, did Gouvemeur Talc
10 indemnify International Talc in any way?
11 A. No.
|
12 Q. Did International Talc liquidate as a
13 result ofthat agreement to be purchased?
14 A, Yes.
j
15 Q. What did Gouvemeur Talc purchase when
16 they purchased International Talc?
17 A. Well, essentially, it was R.T. Vanderbilt
18 Company that purchased International Talc. We
19 purchased between --their assets and not their
20 liabilities, with few exceptions.
j;
21 Q. What exceptions would those be?
;
22 A. Well, I think they had a mill of some kind
(
23 and --which we didn't purchase. Essentially we
24 were after their reserves, as I said.
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25 Q. You wanted the talc?
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zinc is being --is still being mined up there.
2 Q. Are you familiar with a company called
3 Lummus Talc?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. And that's - what is your
6 understanding of the current disposition of Lummus
7 Talc?
8 A. Well, I don't think they exist. My
9 understanding is that they were purchased by
10 International Talc.
11 Q. Correct. Which, in turn, was purchased by
12 R.T. Vanderbilt, right?
13 A, Yes.
14 Q. Okay. How far away was International Talc
15 from Gouvemeur Talc before they became the same
16 thing?
17
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
18 A. I guess we were what I've always heard
1 9 referred to as neighbors.
2 0 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Neighbors?
21 A. In the same area, yes.
22 Q. Competitors?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Would that be a better term?
25 A. Well, they were certainly competitors, --
1 A. Yes.
^
2 Q. And less competition, right?
3
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
4 A. Not so much less competition as to have
5 broader and more --more reserves, basically, more
6 talc reserves.
\
7 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Before Gouvemeur Talc
8 became affiliated with International Talc, were
\
9 their products pretty well identical, their talc
j
10 products?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. Okay. Did Gouvemeur Talc, once it took
r
13 over International Talc's business basically,
|
14 continue to sell or continue to mine out of that
?
15 deposit?
16 A. Yes.
I
17 Q. Now, New York is not the only state where
"
18 R.T. Vanderbilt has ever owned or operated talc
19 mining or milling operations, is it?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Where else?
1
22 A. California.
f
23 Q. Anywhere other than California?
]
24 A. No.
j
25 Q. And what was the name ofthat operation
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out in California?
-
A. Western Talc Company.
3 Q. And was Western Talc Company, that was
4 acquired by R.T. Vanderbilt?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. That had previously been in operation on
7 its own?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Was it acquired in 1973 -- or '63, I'm
10 sony?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And how long did R.T. Vanderbilt operate
13 that Int --or that Western Talc facility?
14 A. Ten years.
15 Q. Mothballed it in '73, correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Why did it get mothballed in 73?
18 A. Essentially there was no demand for talc
19 in --on the west coast.
20 Q. Industry on the west coast did not require
21 talc?
22 A. Well, I don't know the details, but I've
23 always been told that that was it, there was no --
24 or insufficient demand for the available supply.
25 Q. It didn't have anything to do with the
1 relate to the use of Snow Goose or Westal talc? Is
|
2 that true?
1
3 A. Oh, I'm aware of-- of --of that - some,
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4 yes.
I
5 Q. Okay. And what do those documents say?
f
6 A. Well, they said Westal was - was used by
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7 Firestone Tire Company, for example.
8 Q. Do you know how it was used?
|
9 A. I presume as a dusting agents.
10 Q. What about Snow Goose?
11 A. I don't know in detail.
t
12 Q. So Westal was a pretty heavy-duty
[
13 industrial talc, wasn't it?
[
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. Fibrous?
I
16 A. No.
I
17 Q. What?
1
18 A. No.
[
19 Q. No, it was not fibrous? Is that your
r
20 answer?
1
21 A. Well, I'm --I'm not a mineralogist, so I
22 should be --shouldn't be getting into those terms.
23 But, no.
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24 Q. You don't need to be a mineralogist to
I
25 know if it was marketed as a fibrous tremolitic
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tremolite in the talc that Western Talc mined, did
2 it?
3 A. No.
4 Q. And you don't dispute the fact that
5 Western Talc did have tremolite in it, do you?
6
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
7 A. No.
8 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) You don't dispute that?
9 A. I don't.
10 Q. Do you remember or can you tell me any of
11 the trade names Western Talc sold their tremolitic
12 talc under?
13 A. Well, Westal and Snow Goose are the names
14 that come to mind. Westal, W-E-S-T-A-L and Snow
15 Goose, S-N-O-W, G-double O-S-E.
16 Q. Thanks.
17
Do you know what any of that Snow
18 Goose or Westal product was intended to be used for,
19 or don't you?
2 0 A. No.
2 1 Q. You have no idea?
22
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
23 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Is that true?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You've never seen any documents that
1 talc, do you?
2
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
3 A. I wasn't around at the time, but I don't
i
4 think it was marketed as fibrous talc.
[
5 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Okay. You've never seen
|
6 any documentation that would say that?
|
7 A. With Western Talc, no.
1
8 Q. Westal?
f
9 A. No.
|
10 Q. Snow Goose?
f
11 A. No.
1
12 Q. Okay. Are there any other talc mining
|
13 operations launched, purchased, leased, acquired or
\
14 otherwise handled by R.T. Vanderbilt over the years
15 that you know of?
16 A. No.
|
17 Q. To your knowledge, did -- did R.T.
f
18 Vanderbilt ever try, make an attempt to get into the
19 asbestos mining business?
r
2 0 A. No.
21 Q. Are you sure about that?
i
22 A. Yes.
|
23 Q. Okay. All right. Now, it's my
\
24 understanding that mines that R.T. Vanderbilt owned, 1
25 operated or leased acted --R.T. Vanderbilt acted as
l
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the exclusive sales agent for all talc mined by all mines that R.T. Vanderbilt was in control of. Is 3 that true? 4 A. It was the selling arm -- selling arm of 5 the corporation, yes.
6 Q. Okay. Western Talc, did it --it -- it 7 mined its own talc, correct? 8 A. It mined talc, yes. 9 Q. Did it mill its own talc? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And did it produce different grades of 12 talc on its own? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And then what did it do with that talc? 15 A. It sold it to the parent company. 16 Q. R.T. Vanderbilt? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And R.T. Vanderbilt would then, in turn, 19 sell it and market it to different consumers or 20 customers, right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And that's the same thing that happened 23 with Gouvemeur Talc Company as well? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. R.T. Vanderbilt always sold --sold the
1 not a mineralogist and not qualified to speak as to
2 the mineral content of --of all the deposits. I'm
3 just not sure there's proper foundation.
4
MR. McLEOD: I just want to know his
5 personal knowledge.
6 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) And, sir, are you aware
7 that you previously testified in deposition under
8 oath in ~ in this --the exact same kind of case
9 that all talc mined by R.T. Vanderbilt is tremolitic
10 talc? Are you aware of that?
11
MR. PICKERING: Objection to form.
12 A. No, but...
13 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Okay. All right. Any
14 other talc mines that R.T. Vanderbilt operated that
15 we haven't discussed?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Any other talc mines that R.T. Vanderbilt
18 leased or has any interest in that we haven't
19 discussed?
20 A. No.
21 Q. There are several R.T. Vanderbilt sales
22 offices, are there not?
23 A. Sales offices?
24 Q. Yes, sir.
25 A. Yes.
P a g e 119
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talc no matter where it was coming from, what mine
2 it came out of, correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Was all of the talc that R.T. Vanderbilt
5 sold tremolitic talc?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Was all of the talc that R.T. Vanderbilt
8 or its subsidiaries mined tremolitic talc?
9 A. To varying degrees, yes.
10 Q. What do you mean "to varying degrees"?
11 A. Well, I'm aware that there were different
12 amounts of tremolite.
13 Q. Okay. But if --if R.T. Vanderbilt is -
14 is - or one of the subsidiaries is mining talc,
15 then that is tremolitic talc, correct?
16 A. Well, there was some tremolite in it, yes.
17 Q. Okay. There will be --always be
18 tremolite in the talc that R.T. Vanderbilt mined to
19 some degree?
20
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
21 A. I think so, yes.
22
MR. McLEOD: What's the basis of that
23 objection?
24
MR. PICKERING: Just - I think it's
25 lack of foundation. I think he's established he's
1 Q. Is Norwalk one of them? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Norwalk actually sells talc to -- to third 4 parties, right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Do you also have a -- an office in Los 7 Angeles, California that sells talc? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Do you have one up in Toronto, north of 10 the border up in Canada? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And do you also have a Paris, France 13 office that sells in Europe? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And Paris, just to clarify for the record, 16 that office of R.T. Vanderbilt sells talc, right? 17 A. Well, I think it would refer -- refer any 18 customers to R.T. Vanderbilt in, you know, Norwalk. 19 Q. Excuse me? 20 A. Norwalk is the headquarters and --and the 21 selling arm. But they would - if they found any 22 customers, they would refer them to Norwalk. 23 Q. Okay. What does the Paris office do? 24 A. It represents Vanderbilt, sells and -- and 25 pushes our products.
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Q. How does it push your products? A. By representing us to customers and 3 beating the bushes. 4 Q. Beating the bushes. 5 A. Uh-huh. 6 Q. Is that what the LA office does out west 7 of the Rockies? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. And Toronto, that's what th e-10 A. Yeah. 11 Q. --Toronto office does up in Canada, 12 right? 13 A. Yes. Yeah. 14 Q. They beat the bushes, get customers to 15 Norwalk and sell the talc to them, right? 1 6 A. Yes. 17 Q. And those sales would be typically in 18 Canada if it's coming out of the Toronto office, 1 9 right? 2 0 A. Well, the sale would be made out of 21 Norwalk, but... 22 Q. To Canada? 2 3 A. But, yeah. But it's the same company. 24 Q. And the sales would be product being 25 shipped to locations in Canada, right?
1 Q. Nowhere on the face of the earth?
f
2 A. -- from 74. Well, there are a few years
I
3 of records for 197 --for Western Talc Company.
f
4 Q. Okay. Did you research those records for
|
5 Western Talc before you answered my interrogatory
l
6 responses in this case?
I
7 A. Yes.
1
8 Q. Didn't find anything?
1
9 A. No.
|
10 Q. So the earliest records of R.T. Vanderbilt
f
11 talc sales would be at the Norwalk corporate
f
12 offices, and those would begin in 1974. Is that
f
13 right?
[
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. It's my understanding, in looking at some
i
16 of your previous testimony, there are basically
1
17 three record systems in existence to account for
}
18 R.T, Vanderbilt talc sales over the years. Is that
;
19 accurate? There's corporate or the
[
20 computer-generated records for the Gouvemeur Talc
f
21 Company.
22 A. Yes.
i
23 Q. Is that one source of records?
1
24 A. Yes.
!
25 Q. Are there corporate sales records of all
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Page 123
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A. Yes.
1 products sold by R.T. Vanderbilt?
2 Q. Does Norwalk handle all of the sales east
2 A. Yes.
;
3 of the Rocky Mountain range with regard to talc sold
3 Q. And is there an invoice history as well
I
4 in the United States?
4 that would contain talc sales?
1
5 A. And west, too. I have the global sales.
5 A. Yes.
j
6 Q. Okay. So the Norwalk office -- okay. I
6 Q. Okay. And just so the record is clear
|
7 understand what you're saying.
7 here, specifically with regard to domestic talc
8
All right. Are all sales of talc
8 sales, is it your position that - that you're
j*
9 ultimately maintained by the accounting department
9 unable to account for any sale of any talc product
10 in Norwalk at headquarters?
10 ever sold by R.T. Vanderbilt prior to the year 1974,
|
11 A. All sales of all products are recorded,
11 aside from that -- that Western Talc situation you
12 yes.
12 just mentioned?
j
13 Q. Okay. Well, I'm talking just about talc
13 A. Yes.
14 sales right now. So let's skip all the other --I'm
14 Q. Why is that?
15 not interested in chemicals or other stuff right
15 A. Well, because when the sales records were
16 now, I'mjust talking about talc. Okay?
16 recuperated and isolated, that's as far back as we
17 A. Yes.
17 had them.
[
18 Q. All right. Where would I find the best
18 Q. Was there a fire, earthquake, flood?
>
19 record of talc sales that occurred during the 1960s
19 What - why --why did they get destroyed?
|
2 0 and 70s by R.T. Vanderbilt?
20
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
)
21 A. Well, there wouldn't be any records for --
21 A. They --they were destroyed I guess, or
f
2 2 corporate sales records prior to 1974.
22 disposed of in the regular course of business.
23 Q. Okay. Where would I find the best record
23 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) They were disposed of by
f
24 of talc sales made by R.T. Vanderbilt prior to 1974?
24 R.T. Vanderbilt intentionally?
?
25 A. Well, there wouldn't be any from --
25
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
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A. Yes.
1 A. Yes.
1
Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Who made the decision to
2 Q. Did R.T. Vanderbilt talc ever contain
1
3 do that?
3 an --anthophyllite?
I
4 A. I don't know.
4 A. Yes.
|
5 Q. Well, if that decision was going to be
5 Q. Did R.T. Vanderbilt talc contain
I
6 made today to go destroy a bunch of records
6 actinolite?
|
7 pertaining to sales of products, who would make that
7 A. I don't know.
|
8 decision today with regard to talc sales?
8 Q. Do you know what actinolite is?
|
9 A. Well, it would have to be a lot of
9 A. I know, yes.
f
10 people. There's a hold order anyway.
10 Q. Did R.T. Vanderbilt talc ever contain
f
11 Q. I'm not sure I understand your answer.
11 chrysotile?
12 A. Well, I mean at the time, I don't know
12 A. No.
|
13 exactly when it was; but when -- when we got
13 Q. Are you sure about that?
[
14 involved in these - in this litigation, we
14 A. I'm not a geologist or mineralogist.
|
15 recuperated all of the talc records, all of the
15 That's what I've been told.
|
16 sales records that are available and those that were
16 Q. Tell me what you're basing that opinion
|
17 available went back to 1974.
17 on.
|
18 Q. Okay. And the records prior to 1974 were
18 A. Essentially the mineralogists, and whether
19 destroyed.
19 working for the government, privately, consulting,
J
20 A. In the regular course of business, yes.
2 0 what have you.
21 Q. Okay. We had a little confusion on this
21 Q. Are you aware that there are studies that
22 just a second ago, so I'm going to read you
22 show that R.T. Vanderbilt talc did, in fact, contain
f
23 something from a deposition you gave back in - in
2 3 actinolite fibers and chrysotile fibers?
j
24 November, November 15, 2005 in a case called Synette 24 A. I'm not aware of those studies.
|
2 5 Gandy versus Asbestos Claims Management
2 5 Q. You've never seen a study that would
1
Page 127
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Corporation. Do you remember that - that case?
1 indicate those - those facts?
f
2 A. Yes.
2 A. Well, as I said, I'm not a mineralogist,
3 Q. Do you remember the deposition you gave?
3 so if I've reviewed a study, I may not be the person
4 A. Yes.
4 best placed to interpret it. But I don't remember
i
5 Q. To a lawyer named Robert Palmer?
5 any study that maintained chrysotile ~ I know that
|
6 A. Yes.
6 there's been a lot of allegations, of course, over
|
7 Q. And I'mjust going to read it out here.
7 the years, but -
|
8 I'll have it marked. You guys can look at it. This
8 Q. Right. And don't- - don't take what I'm
9 was a document produced to me by Mr. Pickering and
9 asking you in the wrong context. I'm not asking you
10 your other R,T. Vanderbilt lawyers. And I'm reading
10 to give me any sort of expert opinion here. Okay?
11 from the bottom Page 119, Line 22.
11 I'm just asking you: Do you know if R.T. Vanderbilt
12
"Question: Was there any R.T.
12 talc ever contained chrysotile or actinolite as a
f
13 Vanderbilt talc that did not have tremolite in it?
13 component of it? Do you know?
^
14
Answer: There was no R.T. Vanderbilt
14
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
|
15 talc that did not have tremolite in it. We have
15 A. Well, I think I answered the questions.
f
16 sold other people's talc occasionally."
16 I'm not sure about actinolite and I - and I've
f
17
Did I - do you remember saying that
17 always been told that there was no chrysotile in our
18 in deposition?
18 talc.
f
19 A. If that's what it says, I said it, yes.
19 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) What did you call it?
{
20
MR. McLEOD: Okay. I'mjust going to
20 A. Crisso-teal (phonetic).
21 have this marked and attached as whatever exhibit
21 Q. Okay. Is that the same thing as
22 we're on. As No. 4.
22 chrysotile?
23
(Exhibit No. 4 marked.)
23 A. Probably.
[
24 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Do you agree with your
24 Q. Okay. So you're not sure about actinolite
i
25 testimony there?
25 and you dispute the fact that it ever contained
|
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Page 130
chiysotile?
--
A. Yes.
3 Q. Or crisso-teal?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. How did R.T. Vanderbilt go about
6 selling its talc to customers?
7 A. Well, we have salesmen and distributors.
8 Q. Did R.T. Vanderbilt have a stake, a
9 financial stake in any of the distributors?
10 A. No.
11 Q. These are third parties?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Their own businesses, right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. If I asked you to generate me a list of
16 distributors say in Texas that R.T. Vanderbilt has
17 supplied talc to, would you be able to do that?
18 A. To --yes, to some --you know, with...
19 Q. Given the limitations that you have?
20 A. Given the limitation of history and
21 people's memories and so on, yes.
22 Q. Okay. So you had salesmen and you had
23 distributors. Did you have a marketing department
24 formally?
25 A. I think we did for a short term; but
Page 131
otherwise, not formerly, no.
2 Q. When did you have a marketing department?
3 A. At some point before Ijoined the company.
4 Q. Back in the 70s?
5 A. Well, before'84.
6 Q. Okay. Well, do you have any idea when the
7 marketing department was in existence with any
8 more --
9 A. No.
10 Q. -- particularity?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You can't say when that short time it was
13 in existence?
14
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
15 A. No. I think there--there was an
16 individual.
17 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Who was the individual?
18 A. I'm not sure of his name.
19 Q. Who would know?
20 A. The people I've named previously.
21 Q. Who? You named a lot of people.
22 A. All of them -- well, let's say --let's
23 try Joseph Denaro, someone who's been there a while.
24 Q. He would flow who the marketing director
25 w..'.asJ?Ui.'.l "
--
!. ,,
................... J .i . . .
1 1
.!. . ' ....................... ..................................... I
Page 132 i
1 A. Yes.
1
2 Q. Did y'all have an advertising department
^
3 at R.T. Vanderbilt that advertised talc to
f
4 customers?
|
5 A. Well, we had an outside firm that prepared
|
6 ads for us, yes.
I
7 Q. Would you have any idea when it was that
1
8 R.T. Vanderbilt first started producing
1
9 advertisements to send to people, to solicit people
10 to buy talc? And by "people," I mean customers.
11 A. I think they were put in things like
12 industiy journals and such. But no, I don't know
13 exactly when.
|
14 Q. Can you tell me what trade organization
1
15 journals R.T. Vanderbilt would regularly advertise
f
16 in to encourage sales of its talc products?
I
17 A. No.
j
18 Q. Can't tell me one single trade journal?
i
19 A. No.
[
20 Q. Do y'all recall keep -- do y'all have a
f
21 library that would keep those trade journals?
22 A. I don't think so.
23 Q. Who could -- who could answer my questions [
24 about the trade journals?
i!
25 A. Probably this Chris Davis, whom I referred
P a g e 1 3 3 j:
1 to previously.
j
2 Q. Okay. Would Chris Davis have been the
|
3 person that had contact with the outside firms in
4 charge of advertising R.T. Vanderbilt talcs?
5 A. Yes.
i
6 Q. And I forget if I asked you this, if I
|
7 did, I apologize. When did Chris come on board with -i
8 R.T. Vanderbilt?
i
9 A. I don't know.
|
10 Q. Before you did?
f
11 A. Yes.
|
12 Q. How old is Chris? Well, I don't know if I
13 should ask you that, but....
14 A. I think she's ~
15 Q. Can you tell me -
16 A. --in the 60 range.
17 Q. So she might have been there during the
18 1970s?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Is it possible she could have been there
21 during the 1960s for a period of time?
22 A. Well, during the 1970s, yes.
23 Q. Is it possible she could have been there
24 during the 1960s for a period of time?
f
25 A. I don't know.
j
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Q. Okay. And you say you do not know whether
1 have done that research and look through the
- any advertising documents are still available to
2 advertising and marketing information available at
3 review?
3 R.T. Vanderbilt that would be responsive to our
f
4 A. I know some ads are - are still
4 discovery request in --in this case, would that be
l
5 available, yes.
5 something that would be onerous to ask of you?
1
6 Q. And where are those kept?
6 A. No.
[
7 A. At the company.
7 Q. You'd be willing to do that for us?
[
8 Q. When you were answering my
8 A. Yeah.
r
9 interrogatory --my interrogatories and requests for
9 Q. And let's just get this: Is--well, you
10 production in this case, did you review those --
10 have different sales divisions at R.T. Vanderbilt,
11 those advertisements?
11 do you not?
12 A. Did I look at them individually? No.
12 A. Yes.
!
13 Q. Did you make any effort to attempt -- if
13 Q. What divisions do you have?
14 there are advertisements responsive to the master
14 A. Well, we have the rubber sales division,
f
15 interrogatory served on R.T. Vanderbilt in the
15 which is currently swallowed up with the plastics
|
16 Victor Gruetzner case?
16 sales division; so, it's rubber and plastics. We
f
17
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
17 have the petroleum sales division. We have - well,
f
18 A. Well, I know that there are ads.
18 we have --as I said, there is a global manage --
19 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) That's not what I asked
19 global sales manager for minerals, which includes
^
2 0 you. Let me be just real clear: You undertook a
20 paint and paper.
t
21 diligent search of all corporate records and sales
21
And we used to have a specialties
;
22 records and those kind of things to -- to fully and
22 division, which has also been folded into minerals;
r
23 completely respond to Judge Davidson's master MDL
23 and we have the export department.
24 discovery in this case after we filed a motion to
24 Q. I think I asked you a really bad question
[
25 compel and it was granted, correct?
25 just now. I only want to know about talc sales.
Page 135
Page 137 j
A. Yes.
1 Are -- are all of these divisions involved in talc
2 Q. Okay. Did part of that diligent search
2 sales, or have they been?
\
3 include you looking through advertising records?
3 A. Well, minerals would be involved with
|
4 A. Not at the time, no.
4 talc, obviously; and paint and paper specifically;
5 Q. Okay. At any time during the course of
5 and some of the other divisions would have been
1
6 this litigation, have you looked -- have you
6 involved to a small degree.
1
7 researched sale --or advertising records as
7 Q. Okay. Like ceramics?
8 respon - as potentially responsive documents to our
8 A. Yes.
i
9 requests for production and interrogatory answers?
9 Q. Did y'all have a ceramics sales section?
10 A. During the course of? I don't know.
10 A. Yes. In fact, Randy Johnson, who's the -
k
11 During - - 1mean, I'm aware of the existence of
11 the global sales manager, was the ceramics sales
;
12 the --of ads.
12 manager.
13 Q. And you haven't looked through those to
13 Q. And you-all used to have a refractory
[
14 see if there are any that correspond to the request
14 sales division, right?
I
15 for production in this case, have you?
15 A. No.
I
16
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
16 Q. No?
|
17 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) At least that's what I
17
Did you not market products towards
|
18 understood you to say.
18 the refractories industry?
|
19 A. Well, not recently, no.
19 A. I don't think so; but if it - to the
|
2 0 Q. Because if you have, I have a job. That's
2 0 degree that it did, it would come under the ceramics
21 my point.
21 department.
2 2 A. Okay.
22 Q. Okay. What did the specialties department
23
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
23 market their product towards?
;
24 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) If I wanted you -- and if
24 A. Well, primarily it was a product called
1
2 5 it --if it turned out that you were supposed to
2 5 Veegum, which is a type of clay.
j
1 . JLlJ' ........ *** S-h........... ' ................. " .......
Wm* ........... . .................
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Q. Nothing to do with talc at all, the - specialties -- specialty department? 3 A. Well, there could have been sales of talc 4 here and there. 5 Q. Okay. Who would the specialties 6 department have been selling talc to in terms of 7 industry or types of industry? 8 A. I don't know specifically. 9 Q. The paint and paper division of sales, 10 would that have been the division most likely to be 11 selling to manufacturers of wallboard finishing 12 compounds? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Would that, in fact, have been the only 15 division that would have been in charge of selling 16 talc to -- to that industry? 17 A. Probably, yes. 18 Q. Can you think of any other division that 19 would have? 20 A. Not logically, no. 21 Q. I'm not talking logically. I mean, weird 22 things happen, you know. 23 A. Right. Well -- well, that's what I was 24 saying. That's why I said probably. 2 5 Q. Okay. As far as you know, the paint and
1 Q. Where in Connecticut? 2 A. I'm not sure where. 3 Q. Okay. Randy Johnson would be the person 4 most knowledgable about all talc sales made out of 5 the paint and paper division of R.T. --of 6 R.T. Vanderbilt during the time period between, say, 7 1960 and 1980? 8 A. Well, I think he was employed after that; 9 so, there would be a --an issue of history. But 10 that --we also have a paint and paper sales manager 11 whose name is Verg [sic] Carlson -12 Q. Did Verg come before Randy? 13 A. I think so, yes. 14 Q. Do you know when Verg --Verg Carlson? 15 A. Yes. Vergil, V-E-R-G-I-L, Carlson, 16 C-A-R-L-S-O-N. 17 Q. When did he become employed by 18 R.T. Vanderbilt? 19 A. I'm not sure. In the 70s, I think. 20 Q. When did Randy Johnson become a part of 21 the paint and paper division? 22 A. In the '80s. Oh, no, he didn't. He 23 became the ceramics sales manager, and now is the 24 global mineral sales manager. 25 Q. Okay. Well, during the time period - and
Page 139
Page 141
paper division would have been it -- 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. -- for joint compounds, wallboard, and 4 texture industry, as far as sales of talc go? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Are you the person most knowledgeable 7 about sales in that particular division during the 8 period of time between the 1960s and 1980s? 9 A. Of the sales records? 10 Q. Of sales of talc to that particular area 11 of industry, coming out of the paint and paper 12 division of R.T. Vanderbilt? 13 A. Well, if you mean knowledgeable about the 14 customers, no. 15 Q. Who is? 16 A. Randy Johnson. 17 Q. Is Randy available for deposition should I 18 require it? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. He's still employed by R.T. Vanderbilt? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Does he live in Norwalk? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Where does he live? 25 A. In Connecticut.
1 let's just limit to it this right now: During the
2 time period between 1952 and 1980, can you tell me
3 who would be the person most knowledgable about
4 _ sales of talc from R.T. Vanderbilt to the industry
5 that manufactured texture paints, joint compounds,
6 plasters, and finishing compounds for wallboard?
7 A. Well, you have a problem in that most of
8 the individuals employed during that time are
9 deceased; but in terms of knowledgability during the
10 period in which they were employed, the names I have
11 mentioned are the correct ones.
12 Q. Vergil Carlson and --and Randy Johnson?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Would they be most knowledgeable about the
15 sales tactics and marketing techniques that were
16 used to sell talc to these -- to this industry?
17 A. They would be knowledgeable about the
18 sales to customers, yes.
19 Q. And the marketing tactics and --and the
2 0 sales techniques employed?
21 A. I guess.
!
22 Q. You're the corporate representative.
I
2 3 That's why I'm asking.
[
24 A. They would be knowledgeable about --
?
2 5 you're putting a slight spin on the -- on the words,
;
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so --
1 Q. Are you familiar with the ~ the use of
[
-
Q. Well, I'm not trying to trick you.
2 those products?
3 A. They would be knowledgeable about sales to
3 A. No, not in terms of technical purpose.
4 customers within that industry, yes.
4 Q. So, you're not going to come to trial and
5 Q. Okay. Do you know what grades or trade
5 say, "Well, I know Nytal was never used injoint
i
6 names of talc R.T. Vanderbilt sold such customers
6 compounds," and you're not going to be able to say
f
7 for use in products like plaster and joint compound,
7 Fibertal was never used in joint compounds for
l
8 wallboard textures and finishing products?
8 textures or plasters?
9 A. I don't know the specific grades that were
9 A. No.
10 sold to - for particular uses, but I know the trade
10 Q. What about IT 3X?
r
11 name.
11 A. Same thing.
12 Q. Mouldene? Was that one that was sold to
12 Q. IT 325?
13 the --to the wallboard compound industry?
13 A. Same thing.
i
14 A. I know that that's a trade name, but --
14 Q. IT FT?
r
15 belonging to R.T. Vanderbilt company. I don't know
15 A. Same thing.
16 which products were sold to which -- which
16 Q. Okay. You can't say that those talcs were
17 particular customer.
17 not used in products that my client was exposed to,
18 Q. You don't?
18 can you?
!
19 A. Without looking at the records.
19 A. No.
i
20 Q. Okay. So, you have no idea whether
20 Q. Did R.T. Vanderbilt employ people to
21 Mouldene - as you sit here right now without
21 formulate different grades of talc to fit customer
j
2 2 corporate records in front of you, whether Mouldene
22 needs?
2 3 was sold to any wallboard or joint compound --
23 A. Yes.
24 A. Well, I know that --
24 Q. And what would the job title of those
25 Q. --finishing company?
25 folks be?
Page 143
Page 145
A. -- it occurs in --in our sales to the 2 companies you asked for. 3 Q. Okay. Are you aware of any specific use 4 that Mouldene was intended for? 5 A. No. 6 Q. What about Fibertal No. 1? 7 A. No. 8 Q. What about Fibertal No. 2? 9 A. No. 10 Q. You can't tell me one specific use that 11 Fibertal --that any Fibertal product sold by 12 R.T. Vanderbilt was ever intended for? 13 A. Well, I know, generally speaking, what our 14 talcs - what industries our talcs went to 15 predominantly. I don't know what each individual 16 grade was used for over a period of 50 or 60 years 17 or whenever. 18 Q. Okay. So, is the answer to my question 19 no? 20 A. No. 21 Q. All right. Nytal --there's a few grades 22 that y'all have identified selling to some companies 23 I'm interested in --100, 200, and 300. Are you 24 familiar with -- with those product names? 25 A. Yes.
1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. Who would know?
3 A. Well, we'd have to go to our R&D
4 department, perhaps Dana Putman up in Gouvemeur and ^
5 so on.
f
6 Q. Okay. Well, let's talk about your R&D
7 department. Can you tell me when your research and \
8 development department came into existence -
f
9 A. No.
|
10 Q. --at R.T. Vanderbilt?
1
11 A. No.
12 Q. Was it there long before you arrived?
13 A. I don't know.
j
14 Q. Was it there when you arrived?
!
15 A. Yes.
f
16 Q. Do you know, when you arrived, who was in
\
17 charge of the R&D department?
[
18 A. No.
1
19 Q. No idea?
?
20 A. Not when i arrived in '84. I don't
1
21 remember. I don't want to give you the wrong name
22 and be accused of perjury.
f
23 Q. Well, I'm certainly not accusing you of
1
24 peijury by saying you don't know.
|
25
You okay?
j
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Page 148 |
A. Excuse me?
z Q. You doing okay?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. Okay. What was the purpose of the
5 research and development department at
6 R.T. Vanderbilt as it pertains solely to talc?
7 A. Well, generally speaking, it - it was
8 there to provide support for our customers.
9 Q. And how did it provide support to your
10 customers?
11 A. By talking to them and getting their input
12 and hearing about their problems with products or
13 their desires for products or their needs, and
14 whatever, and -- and developing products that
15 would - that would meet those requirements or
16 changing existing products or --or what have you
17 to - or solving their problems.
18 Q. Pretty much the same as any other R&D
19 depar -- R&D department for any similar business,
20 right?
21
MR, PICKERING: Objection, form.
22 A. Well, we haven't done much pure research,
2 3 so far as that would be a part of a --
24 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Got ya.
2 5 A. -- an R&D department. I'm not saying we
1 department as it pertains to j oint compound
1
2 companies?
\
3 A. Well, they'd certainly be the most
|
4 knowledgable, yes.
I
5 Q. Is the R&D department still in existence?
I
6 A. Yes.
1
7 Q. Do --does the R&D department maintain its
j
8 own set of records separate from the sales records
9 we've already talked about?
1
10 A. Well, the R&D department doesn't maintain
|
11 sales records; but -
|
12 Q. That's not what I asked you. Excuse me.
13
The R&D department, they don't sell
|
14 anything, do they?
1
15 A. No.
|
1 6 Q. So, naturally, they're not maintaining
)
17 sales records; but they do generate papers in the
[
18 ordinary care of their business, do they not?
19 A. Yes.
|
20 Q. And do they keep that paper?
21 A. They keep some of it, yes.
22 Q. Okay. And where are the records for the
f
23 research and development part -- department kept?
t
24 A. In Norwalk.
\
25 Q. And are they kept in the ordinary course
\
Page 147
Page 149 ;
did none; but, generally speaking, we were there to
1 of business?
j
2 support our customers.
2 A. Yes.
|
3 Q. With regard to formulations of products
3 Q. Okay. Do you know what form the research
j
4 and -- and how their products would be used by your
4 and development documents at Norwalk are kept in?
f
5 customers, you wanted to make the best product you
5 A. No.
1
6 could for your customers to ensure their happiness
6 Q. In response to my interrogatories and
1
7 so they would come back and buy more talc from you,
7 request for production in this case, did you
8 right?
8 undertake any examination of the research and
j
9 A. Yes.
9 development records available to you in Norwalk at
10 Q. And that's a function of the R&D
10 your office?
11 department basically in a nutshell at
11 A. No.
12 R.T. Vanderbilt, right?
12 Q. Did that just not occur to you?
[
13 A. Yes.
13 A. I talked to - to the people that I
14 Q. Did they provide insight and -- and --and
14 thought were knowledgeable, and they told me that
[
15 support on products that were sold to the joint
15 there wasn't an issue; so --
16 compound and texture industry?
16 Q. Okay. Do you know --do you have any idea
17 A. I don't know.
17 when those records begin, like what year they're -
18 Q. Who would know that?
18 they're kept from?
19 A. The individuals we've named before.
19 A. No.
i
2 0 Q. Refresh me. Specifically on this
2 0 Q. Do you know how late those records go to?
|
2 1 question. I - 1hate to keep having to ask you for
21 A. Well, I know there are current records,
22 names, but they've brought you here to answer my
22 yes.
?
23 questions.
23 Q. Hopefully they're current to 2006 in the
^
24 A. Randy Johnson and Verg Carlson.
24 year model order, right?
25 Q. They would be knowledgeable about the R&D
25 A. Yes.
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Q. Okay. Who did you ask whether or not
1 department, do you?
- research and development records would be pertinent
2
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
f
3 to my discovery response in this case?
3 A. As a procedural matter, I'm almost certain
4 A. Randy Johnson and Verg Carlson.
4 that there aren't any documents of the age that
j
5 Q. What did they say?
5 you're requesting to begin with -
|
6 A. They said no.
6 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Okay.
|
7 Q. Okay. And that satisfied you in the
7 A. --but, no.
1
8 course of your ~
8 Q. So, the short answer is, no, you don't
f
9 A. Yeah.
9 have any idea whether or not there are responsive
10 Q. -- diligent research of all available
10 documents in the R&D department to my master
11 corporate records in response to my request for
11 discovery request, do you?
i
12 disclosure?
12
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
j.
13 A. Yes.
13 A. Subject to what I said before about asking
14 Q. Or my re -- my request for production in
14 Verg Carlson and Randy Johnson about this matter,
15 my interrogatories?
15 no.
16 A. Yes.
16 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) But you didn't look,
r
17 Q. Do you know how many documents are in the
17 yourself did you?
18 research and --and development department?
18 A. No.
f
19 A. No.
19 Q. You're aware that in those responses that
{
20 Q. Do you --is there any microfiche that you
20 were provided to me by R.T. Vanderbilt that
|
21 know of?
21 R.T. Vanderbilt responded that they sold talc to
r
22 A. No.
22 many of the companies that manufactured joint
23 Q. Do you know of any computer-generated
23 compounds, plasters, textures, drywall finishing
24 system that keeps traffic of R&D information?
24 products used by my client Victor Gruetzner; is that
?
25 A. No.
25 correct?
Page 151
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Q. Basically just be hard copies, to your
2 knowledge?
3 A. Well, I think we've reached the computer
4 age, too.
5 Q. Do you know how they're sorted?
6 A. No.
7 Q. If I wanted to come take a look at these
8 documents, would you have any objection?
9 A. Well, subject to the legal procedures.
10 Q. Sure.
11
And I don't know if you're aware of
12 this or not, but when I got my Motion to Compel
13 R.T. Vanderbilt to fully and completely answer
14 discovery responses in this case, all of their
15 objections to my --to the --to the master of
16 discoveiy were overruled.
17
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
18 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Did anybody ever tell
19 that you?
2 0 A. I think so, yes.
21 Q, Okay. So, you have no idea whether or not
22 there are documents that would indicate
2 3 communications with R.T. Vanderbilt to the --the
24 manufacturers that I've asked for research on in
2 5 this case located in the research and development
1 A. Well, the ones that are listed, yes.
2 Q. Right. And you understand that the reason
3 why we were interested in those companies is because
4 my client used products manufactured by those
f
5 companies, right?
t
6
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
7 A. Yes.
1
8 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Can you think of any
1
9 other reason why I'd want to know about them?
f
10
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
11 A. I can think of a few, but ~
12 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Okay. Well, y'all
f
13 identified sales to a - to a company called
|
14 Georgia-Pacific, right?
f
15 A. Yes.
1
16 Q. And Kaiser Gypsum?
i
17 A. If they're listed in the interrogatories,
18 yes.
19 Q. Okay. Would you like a copy, or you --
i
20 will you take my word for it?
21 A. If they're listed in there.
[
22 Q. Okay. Well, I'll just represent to you
-
23 that y'all listed Georgia-Pacific, Kaiser Gypsum,
f
24 Bondex International, Flintkote, Gold Bond building
[
25 products as a --as a subsidiary of National Gypsum
39 (Pages 150 to 153)
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Company, Rutland products, United States Gypsum,
Kelley-Moore Paint Company, and the Cook Paint &
3 Varnish Company.
4
Do you have any reason to disagree?
5 A. No.
6
MR. McLEOD: I have a copy of the
7 discovery responses right here I'm going to have
8 marked as Exhibit No. 5, and I'm going to attach
9 these to the transcript.
10
(Exhibit Number 5 marked.)
11
MR. PICKERING: Before you go on,
12 what was marked as 4? I--
13
MR. McLEOD: That was his
14 deposition --his deposition that he gave in
15 November, '05.
16 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) The list of companies
17 that y'all sold is -- is listed on - it begins on
18 page 21 of these interrogatories; and --and --and
19 just so we're clear, did you have a hand in --in
20 answering these interrogatory responses?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You verified in them, in fact, correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. There's even a verification page
25 attached to these things that says "Paul Vanderbilt"
1 A. I don't know.
I
2 Q. You can't estimate that at all?
3 A. No.
|
4 Q. Who would know that?
f
5 A. Oh, Randy Johnson and Verg Carlson.
6 Q. How many distributors did R.T. Vanderbilt
7 sell talc to in Texas?
8 A. Well, I'm aware of three.
>
9 Q. Okay. What are those companies?
f
10 A. Let me see. One of them was called Crone
f
11 Chemical, and there were two --two distributors
12 that we terminated; and we have a current
jj
13 distributor. And I can't remember the other - the
:j
14 other two names, either the current distributor or
|
15 the -- or the other one, along with Crone Chemical.
16 Q. You've been distributing --or Crone
17 Chemical has been a distributor of R.T. Vanderbilt
i
18 talc since the '70s; is that right?
19 A. I'm not sure of the dates. Possibly the
2 0 '60s. I'm not sure of the dates.
21 Q. Okay. In your -- in these interrogatory
-
22 responses that you responded to, you've - you've
2 3 identified that there are, in fact, two salespeople
24 employed by R.T. Vanderbilt here in Texas. Who are
2 5 those people?
Page 155
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on it. Did you sign this?
1
2 A. Yes.
2
3 Q. In your diligent search of the sales
3
4 records, sir, did you come across any sales of talc
4
5 to the Thompson and Hayward [sic] chemical company? 5
6 A. No.
6
7 Q. Because they indicate that R.T. Vanderbilt
7
8 sold them talc over the years. If they have a
8
9 record of it, shouldn't --shouldn't R.T. Vanderbilt
9
10 have a record of it as well?
10
11 A. Well, if they purchased it either before
11
12 '74 or through a distributor, we wouldn't have a
12
13 record of it, no.
13
14 Q. So, there are no sales --no records
14
15 maintained by R.T. Vanderbilt that indicate sales of
15
16 tremolitic talc to Thompson Hayward Chemical Company 16
17 or --
17
18 A. Not that I found.
18
19 Q. -- T.H. Agriculture & Nutrition?
19
20
DEFENSE COUNSEL: Objection, form.
20
21 A. Not that I found when I looked for them.
21
22 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Can you estimate how much 22
23 of R.T. Vanderbilt's domestic talc sales were to
23
24 distributors rather than just companies that were
24
25
actually
--r
going
r
to
use
.
the
.p..r..o..d..u..c.ty?.
-n
tt- :
"
25 "
A. I don't know. Q. You don't know their names? A. No. Q. You don't know -- A. The ones who are resident in Texas. Q. Pardon? A. I don't know those who are resident in Texas, no. Q. Who provided that information to these interrogatories? A. Probably the personnel manager. Q. Who's that? A. Peter Burr, B-U double R. Q. And those people's job is to sell talc here in Texas? A. I don't know. Depending on which department they're in. Q. AH right. It says they're talc sales people in the interrogatory responses.
We'll move on. As a --just in general terms, is there any way for R.T. Vanderbilt to tell me where their talc will end up once it's sold to a distributor? A. No.
40 (Pages 154 to
} f j
;
! : | ;
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MR. McLEOD: Let's change tapes.
1 Q. Well, that's fact, isn't it?
a
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're off the
2
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
I
3 record at 11:56. This is the end of Tape 2.
3 A. I don't know that.
1
4
(Moment off the record.)
4 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) You've indicated that
\
5
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're on the
5 R.T. Vanderbilt sold all this talc to these
t
6 record at 11:57. This is the beginning of Tape 3.
6 companies listed here in these interrogatory
\
7 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Mr. Vanderbilt, we just
7 responses on Exhibit No. 5, right?
)
8 changed tapes. I just asked you a question about
8 A. Yes.
9 distributors, and you answered it.
9 Q. You don't dispute that?
10
Sir, there's no way to --for
10 A. No.
11 R.T. Vanderbilt to control what a distributor does
11 Q. Okay. I'm asking you: Are you aware of
1
12 with their talc, is that true.
12 the products he's identified --Victor Gruetzner has
13
DEFENSE COUNSEL: Objection, form.
13 identified using over his career as a drywall
14 A. I presume that we could tell them not to
14 carpenter were manufactured at the facilities where
15 sell to somebody or something like that; but
15 the talc was sold to by R.T. Vanderbilt? Are you
16 generally speaking, no.
16 aware of that?
i
17 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Can you think of any time
17 A. No.
^
18 when R.T. Vanderbilt has ever done that?
18 Q. Okay. Let me ask you this: Given the
19 A. With regard to talc? No.
19 fact that R.T. Vanderbilt supplied millions of
20 Q, Okay. Now, you're --are you aware that
20 pounds of talc to companies that made the products
f
21 the total sales of R.T. Vanderbilt talc to these --
21 my client testified that he used, do you have any
f
22 these companies in --listed in -- in the
22 reason to believe Victor Gruetzner was not exposed
|
23 interrogatory responses here that your lawyers have
23 to R.T. Vanderbilt talc?
24 provided to me during the time periods where my
24
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
25 client was using the products manufactured by these
25 A. I don't know what products the talc went
!
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companies amounts to millions of pounds of talc.
2 Are you aware of that?
3
MR, PICKERING: Objection, form.
4 A. I'm aware of the numbers that were ~ that
5 were given. It doesn't add up to millions.
6 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Pardon? It doesn't add
7 up -
8 A. I haven't added up the -- the total
9 numbers.
10 Q. Okay. Are you aware that the products
11 he's identified as having -- having used during the
12 '60s and '70s, both in --in discovery responses
13 and in deposition testimony, were manufactured at
14 the locations where R.T. Vanderbilt has indicated
15 that they sold this talc over the years?
16 A. I didn't understand your question.
17 Q. Okay. Let me rephrase it for you.
18
My client, Victor Gruetzner, has
19 testified to --to using, over his career as a
20 drywall carpenter, products manufactured by the
21 companies you've indicated that R.T. Vanderbilt sold
22 talc to, correct?
23
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
24 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Do you understand that?
25 A. That's the --that's the allegation, yes.
1 into, et cetera; so, I --I can't say.
2 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Okay. In response to
\
3 Interrogatoiy No. 3 on Exhibit 5, in the product
4 specific interrogatory, it says that R.T. Vanderbilt
5 believes that its talc was used as a component in
6 certain drywall finishing compounds manufactured by
7 these manufacturers.
8
Now, how do you reconcile those two
9 answers?
10 A. I don't know any particular brands or
11 brands that were used by your plaintiff or anything
12 like that.
13 Q. Okay. Have you read Victor Gruetzner's
14 deposition?
|
15 A. No.
16 Q. Have you been shown any of his discovery
|
17 responses?
|
18 A. I don't think so.
19 Q. Okay. Well, let me ask you this: If
20 Victor Gruetzner used drywall compound products that
21 contained R.T. Vanderbilt talc in such a way that
22 dust was --was released from those products, he was
23 breathing R.T. Vanderbilt talc dust, wasn't he?
24 A. I can't answer that question, either.
25 Q. Why not?
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- A. I'm not competent as to the nature of the - products and --and whether they were liquid or 3 viscous or -- 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. --what have you. 6 Q. Well, do you know what joint compound is? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q, Do you know what it's for? 9 A. In general terms, yes. 10 Q. Have you ever seen any joint compound in 11 the hardware store or anything like that, or do you 12 go into hardware stores? 13 A. I'm not a big do-it-yourselfer. 14 Q. Okay. Well, let's see here. I'm going to 15 have marked Exhibit No. 6, and this is a -- this is 16 an article published in 1975 by the American 17 Association for the Advancement of Science. It's 18 a - it's a magazine called Science, and there's an 19 article in here written by a gentleman named 20 Dr. Arthur Rohl. Have you ever heard of Dr. Arthur 21 Rohl before? 2 2 A. I have. 2 3 Q. Okay. There's also a --a coauthor here 24 named A.M. Langer. I think you mentioned Arthur 2 5 Langer before as well, right?
1 pastes."
j
2
Do you understand that to be
I
3 consistent with just joint compounds and --and
1
4 texture product in general?
t
5
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
f
6 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) In your own experience.
1
7 A. In general terms, yes.
|
8 Q. Okay. If you look down towards the bottom
f
9 of that same paragraph, it also says, "The presence
F
10 of amphibole asbestos in some products results from
i
11 its natural occurrence in talc."
|
12
Do you see where it said that?
1
13 A. I see where it says that.
f
14 Q. Did I read that correctly?
'i
15 A. Yes.
f
16 Q. All right.
i
17 A. Although, that's not the whole sentence;
18 but, yes, you read that part correctly.
19 Q. Thanks.
j
20
If you'll flip over on the last page,
21 about halfway down, the top paragraph, the line
22 beginning with "electron microscopy." Are you
23 there?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. The first complete sentence in that
Page 163
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A. Yes.
2 Q. Let me ask you: Do you --do you intend
3 to rely on the testimony of Arthur Langer to -- to
4 support the theory that your talc did not contain
5 asbestos?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay.
8
MR. McLEOD: If I could get this
9 marked as Exhibit No. 6, and pass it over to you.
10
(Exhibit No. 6 marked.)
11 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Do you see down there at
12 the - towards the bottom of the second page that
13 you just flipped past --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- where it says, "Exposure to Asbestos in
16 the Use of Consumer Spackling, Patching, and Taping
17 Compounds"?
18
Do you see that title?
19 A. Yes.
2 0 Q. That's the title of the article that I'm
2 1 talking about.
22
And if you move down below the
23 abstract to where the article starts, it says,
24 "Spackling and drywall taping compounds consist of
25 extremely fine grade white powders or premixed
1 line: Air samples were taken at various building
2 jobs and job sites and included such operations as
3 hand-sanding, pole-sanding, and mixing of dry
4 spackle with water, and sweeping after completion of
5 such operations.
6
Did I get that right?
7 A. Well, you added in an extra "and"; but
[
8 other than that, yes.
9 Q. Okay. If you'll skip to the summary,
10 which is the second full paragraph --or the
11 second-to-the-last full paragraph, where it says,
i;
12 "In summary." Are you there?
F
13 A. Yes.
F
14 Q. It says: In summary, our analysis of 15
15 representative samples of consumer spackling,
16 patching, and taping compounds has shown that five
17 contained appreciable amounts of chrysotile or other
;
18 asbestos minerals. Many contained substantial
19 amounts of quartz, talc, and other minerals with
20 disease potential.
21
Optical micro -- microscope analys --
22 microscopic analysis and personal air samples
23 contained during the use of asbestos-containing
24 compounds showed concentrations frequently in excess ?
25 of the current occupational standard of 5 fibers per
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milliliter, longer than 5 microns. Use of these
1 Gruetzner's -- Victor Gruetzner's deposition
1
- materials in home repair work (for example, mixing,
2 testimony about how he used joint compounds and
3 sanding, and cleanup) may expose the user (and other
3 spackling compounds over the years?
i
4 members of the household) to significant
4 A. No.
l
5 concentrations of asbestos.
5 Q. Okay. You certainly cannot sit here under
\
6
Did I read that correctly?
6 oath today and say that Victor Gruetzner has never
1 A. Yes.
7 been exposed or breathed R.T. Vanderbilt talc, can
8 Q. And finally, the veiy last paragraph:
8 you?
9 Even more important, none of the 25 found industrial
9 A. No.
10 and consumer spackling and taping compounds examined 10 Q. Are you aware, sir, that joint compounds,
11 had warning labels or indication that they might
11 spackling compounds, and patching compounds,
12 contain toxic or hazardous materials.
12 finishing compounds, they've all been shown to
13
Did I get that right?
13 produce significant amounts of dust when they're
1 4 A. Yes.
14 used as intended, as illustrated by that article?
15 Q. And if you look up in the top right-hand
15
DEFENSE COUNSEL: Object to form.
1 6 comer and see who wrote that article down at the
16
MR. PICKERING: Same objection.
17 bottom --the bottom, it says A.M. Rohl, A.M.
17 A. In a general sense, I've --I'm aware of
18 Langer, I.J. Selikoff, and W.J. Nicholson, correct?
18 possibility of dust exposure, yes.
19 A. Yes.
19 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Okay. When they're used
20 Q. Now, does that clarify to you, as someone
20 as they're intended, correct?
21 who has probably never used joint compound or
21
MR. PICKERING: Same objection.
22 spackling compounds of this nature, how a person
22 A. With the same -- in general, yes.
23 would be exposed to dust from those products?
23 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Is your answer "yes"?
24
DEFENSE COUNSEL: Object to form.
24 A. In general, yes.
25
MR. PICKERING: Same objection.
25 Q. Okay. Now, all that being said, it makes
Page 167
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A. In a general sense, yes.
1 it sound kind of dangerous to be putting minerals
2 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Okay. And my question
2 that are disease-causing agents in products like
3 before that I don't think you understood was that if
3 joint compounds, correct?
4 my client, Victor Gruetzner, was indeed using a
4
MR. PICKERING: Objection to form.
5 product like - like what's described in that
5
DEFENSE COUNSEL: Objection, form.
6 article there, a joint compound, either mixing or
6 A. As to the talc, you're speculating as to
I
7 sanding it or sweeping it up after it's been sanded
7 the danger involved.
8 or mixed, and that creates dust that he breathes, if
8 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Okay. That's not what I
9 that product contains R.T. Vanderbilt talc, he is
9 said.
I
10 breathing R.T. Vanderbilt talc, is he not?
10
If -- if -- if you're putting --
11
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
11 A. I'm not here to answer for chrysotile, for
f
12 A. With several different levels of
12 example.
13 speculation, yes.
13 Q. You're here to answer my questions, is why
14 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) I'm not sure I
14 you're here.
15 understand.
15
MR. PICKERING: Objection,
16 A. You're saying that if your plaintiff
16 argumentative. Come on, now.
;
17 breathed it and if there was Vanderbilt talc in the
17
MR. McLEOD: Well, I think he's being
18 product and if the product were used and if it were
18 nonresponsive; and I'm not trying to argue, but ~
19 sanded or something a particular way, then something
19
MR. PICKERING: I think you're asking
20 might happen. With all those levels of speculation,
20 him to get into what's almost expert opinion. He's
|
21 then, yes, it's possible.
21 not a technical guy -
22 Q. So, if all those things are true, then
22
MR. McLEOD: Thanks, Wayne.
23 yes?
23 A. I mean, I'm aware you can drown in a
24 A. Yes.
24 puddle.
2 5 Q. Okay. And you have not read Victor
25 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Can you?
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* A. Yes.
J Q. Okay. Do you think it's dangerous to put
3 asbestos injoint compounds if they're going to be
4 used in the manner that -- that's detailed in that
5 article?
6 A. I'm aware that asbestos is dangerous, yes.
7 Q. And do you think it's dangerous to put
8 them in joint compounds if they're going to be used
9 like they are in that article?
10
DEFENSE COUNSEL: Objection, form.
11 A. I'm generally aware that asbestos is
12 generally dangerous.
13 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Am I not asking you a
14 clear question? Did I ask you if asbestos was
15 dangerous? Is that what you understood me to ask
16 you?
17 A. I don't know about - I don't know --
18 Q. Because I'll rephrase it.
19 A. --I'm not going to answer the use of the
20 product of this because I'm not familiar with the --
21 the use of these products.
22 Q. You're --you're refusing to answer my
23 question? Is that what you're doing?
24 A. No. I'm answering the questions you asked
25 me, but I can't give you specific technical answers
1 A. Yes.
1
2
DEFENSE COUNSEL: Object, form.
J
3
MR. PICKERING: Same objection.
4 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Do you know why it is --
5 well, let me ask you this: What is the last year
6 of --of sales that you showed any of these
|
7 companies listed in our interrogatory responses?
|
8
MR. PICKERING: If you need to look
f
9 at them.
;
10
Please let him see the responses
^
11 because I don't recall myself Matt.
$
12
MR. McLEOD: Okay.
13
MR. PICKERING: Do you know what page i
14 that is on?
1
15
MR. McLEOD: Huh?
j
16
MR. PICKERING: What page is that
17 on?
18
MR. McLEOD: It's on Page No. 21.
19 A. I'm sorry. What was the question? The
20 last --the most recent year that --
21 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) I'll try to short-circuit
22 this.
23
In the late 70s, did -- did sales
24 of --of R.T. Vanderbilt talc to manufacturers of
25 joint compounds and wall texture companies see
Page 171
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to things I don't know.
2 Q. So, you don't have an opinion on whether
3 or not putting asbestos in joint compounds that are
4 going to be mixed and sanded is dangerous?
5 A. I said asbestos is dangerous, yes.
6 Q. Okay. Especially when it's used injoint
7 compounds that are going to liberate dust into the
8 air when they're mixed or sanded, right?
9
DEFENSE COUNSEL: Objection, form.
10 A. Again, I don't know about the
11 "especially." I know that asbestos is gen --
12 generally dangerous.
13 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) And it's - it's
14 dangerous how?
15 A. It can be inspired.
16 Q. If you inhale it, right?
17 A. Inhaled, yes.
18 Q. And if you're sanding joint compound that
19 contains asbestos fibers, and you inhale that --
20 the -- the fibers, then that's dangerous, right?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. And if you're mixing a bag ofjoint
23 compound that contains asbestos fibers, and you
24 breathe dust created by that process, then that has
25 potential to cause fatal disease, doesn't it?
1 somewhat of a decline, to your knowledge?
2 A. When -- oh, I was still working on the --
3 we've struck that one?
4 Q. Yeah, let's strike that one. I'll
5 start --that was a bad one.
6
Do you --do you know of any decline
7 in talc sales to companies that manufactured j oint
8 compounds and -- and textures and spackling
9 compounds like the ones listed in the interrogatory
10 response occurring somewhere towards the tail end of
11 the 1970s?
12 A. Yes - yes.
13 Q. Do you know why that is?
14 A. Well, I know that some of them were
15 concerned about the presence of the word "tremolite"
16 in the asbestos venue.
17 Q. People got scared of R.T. Talc?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. And is that your understanding for
20 the reason the decline in sales of talc to companies
21 that manufacturer these products during the late
22 70s?
23 A. I can't talk to the thought process of
24 these individual companies, but I've had some
2 5 knowledge that that's what happened.
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Q. That's your understanding of why --
L A. Yes.
3 Q. --why it dried up?
4
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
5 A. It didn't dry up.
6
MR. McLEOD: What's the objection?
7
MR. PICKERING: I ju s t- h e
8 corrected it. I mean, I think you mischaracterized
9 his testimony.
10
MR. McLEOD: Okay. Well -
11
MR. PICKERING: You said it dried up,
12 and he dis -- disagreed. I was objecting to your
13 characterization.
14
MR. McLEOD: Let m e- - let me just
15 clear that up for the record. I --that's fair.
16 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Is -- was - was your
17 customers' concern about the tremolitic content
18 R.T. Vanderbilt talc, is - is that your
19 understanding for the reason that sales of
2 0 tremolitic talc made by R.T. Vanderbilt to the
21 companies in my interrogatory responses there that
22 you said sold to, is that the reason for the decline
2 3 in sales? To your knowledge.
24
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
2 5 A. I know it was a reason for some customers
1
(Lunch recess taken from 12:15 to
|
2 1:14 p.m.)
|
3
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're on the
1
4 record at 1:14.
1
5 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Did you get some lunch,
i
6 Mr. Vanderbilt?
f
7 A. I did.
i
8 Q. Good. Are you ready to go ahead and
|
9 continue on?
1
10 A. Yes. Yes.
1
11 Q. Hopefully we'll get this finished up.
|
12
Now, sir, R.T. Vanderbilt through the
1
13 years has hired many consultants in connection with
f
14 the talc asbestos controversy that has existed with
1
15 regard to R.T. Vanderbilt's tremolitic talc, have
1
16 they not?
1
17 A. Yes.
|
18 Q. And have they - what -- what kind of
}
19 studies have those experts done on R.T. Vanderbilt
|
20 talc over the years?
f
21 A. Well, there have been analyses of the
|
22 talc; and there have been industrial hygiene studies
23 of the --the group of employees at Gouvemeur Talc
24 Company; and mortality studies, too.
|
25 Q. Any other types of studies that you are
Page 175
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to be concerned about our talc. I don't know
1 personally aware of done by experts hired by
\
2 whether or not these particular customers were.
2 R.T. Vanderbilt?
f
3 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Okay. But you just knew
3
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
|
4 as a general proposition that was happening.
4 A. Well, that would largely be it, although
5 A. That some customers were concerned about
5 I'm not necessarily an expert on all the
^
6 the tremolite. They also knew we were fighting the
6 terminology.
f
7 issue.
7
MR. McLEOD: Okay. And just so I'm
t
8 Q. Fighting who?
8 clear, Wayne, what's objectionable?
j
9 A. Excuse me?
9
MR. PICKERING: Just - - 1don't know
10 Q. Fighting who?
10 if you intended to or not, you substituted the word
11 A. That we were fighting the issue, fighting
11 "expert" for consult --for "consultants" in your
12 the allegation that our talc contained tremolite --
12 second question; and just -
13 contained asbestos.
13
MR. McLEOD: Okay.
f
14 Q. And you would be fighting to the Consumer
14
MR. PICKERING: -- reserve the
j
15 Safety Product Commission [sic]?
15 objection in case that meant something different
16 A. To anybody necessary; OSHA, MSHA, NIOSH, 16 from what I though it meant.
f
17 Consumer Product Safety Commission -- Commission, 17
MR. McLEOD: Okay.
i
18 the EPA.
18 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Are you -- do you know a
f
19 Q. You fought them?
19 man named Steve Lamm, L-A-M-M?
i
20 A. Yes.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay.
21 Q. Have you ever met him?
22
MR. McLEOD: Let's go off the
22 A. Yes.
23 record.
23 Q. And is that person a consultant of
24
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're off the
24 R.T. Vanderbilt Company on the talc asbestos
25 record at 12:15.
*\ * . ;*:#V. :*
.. ' ..............
2 5 controversy?
'
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A. He has been, yes.
1 Q. Had she been hired to --to do some work
|
Q. And he's received payment for his work
2 for R.T. Vanderbilt with regard to the talc asbestos
1
3 done in that regard from R.T. Vanderbilt?
3 controversy that's existed?
|
4 A. Yes.
4 A. I think so, yes.
5 Q. Has that generally been for purposes of --
5 Q. Okay. Are you aware of any specific
|
6 of litigation or as a result of the litigation
6 reports that Catherine Skinner has issued on that
f
7 surrounding R.T. Vanderbilt talc and the asbestos
7 subject?
|
8 talc controversy?
8 A. No.
1
9 A. Well, it would be -- the start of the
9 Q. Have you met with her personally?
|
10 controversy relates to the --the OSHA standard and
10 A. No.
I
11 the NIOSH reports; so, it would be both to answer
11 Q. Do you know Richard J. Lee?
1
12 the regulatory issues and, of course, also to deal
12 A. Not personally, but -
f
13 with the litigation.
13 Q. Never met him?
f
14 Q. Okay. So, both of those, the regulatory
14 A. No.
\
15 issues involved and litigation?
15 Q. He's a paid consultant of R.T. Vanderbilt,
i
16 A. Yes.
16 is he not?
1
17 Q. Do you know Ann Wylie?
17 A. Yes.
j
18 A. Yes.
18 Q. And he performs work for R.T. Vanderbilt
!
19 Q. You've met Ann Wylie before?
19 on the talc asbestos controversy issues as needed,
i
20 A. Yes.
20 correct?
21 Q. And is Ann Wylie a paid consultant of the
21 A. When we ask him to, yes.
22 R.T. Vanderbilt company?
22 Q. Okay. And, again, that work is done
f
23 A. She has been. I don't know whether she is
23 generally for the same purposes we've discussed
24 now.
24 that --it evolved around the regulatory measures
j;
25 Q. Okay. Has she stopped communicating with
25 that OSHA and NIOSH were trying to enforce regarding
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the R.T. Vanderbilt Company? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Has Ann Wylie done studies for 4 R.T. Vanderbilt on the talc asbestos controversy 5 that we talked about? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And she was paid for those studies? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And were those studies done as a result of 10 the regular - regulatory problems and the 11 litigation problems that R.T. Vanderbilt was facing 12 because of the talc asbestos controversy surrounding 13 your talc? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. Catherine Skinner, is she a paid 16 consultant with the R.T. Vanderbilt Company? 17 A. She has been. 18 Q. Has been in the past? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Was her connection with R.T. Vanderbilt 21 the same or similar to that of Ann Wylie? 22 A. I'm -- I'm not quite sure what exactly her 23 contribution was, but 24 Q. Okay. 2 5 A. - 1think she was a mineralogist.
1 R.T. Vanderbilt's talc, as well as the litigation
I
2 filed in civil courts regarding talc and asbestos,
f
3 correct?
?
4 A. Yes.
l
5 Q. Is that ~ is all that true about the work
>
6 done by Arthur Langer for R.T. Vanderbilt as a paid
7 consultant?
8 A. Yes.
i
9 Q. John Kelse is actually an employee of
10 R.T. Vanderbilt, correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Would you say that John Kelse is kind of
r
13 the point man on that talc asbestos issue for
14 R.T. Vanderbilt?
15 A. Yes, he is.
I
16 Q. And he's done a lot of work in tiying to
|
17 deregulate the talc as an asbestos-containing
1
18 material, has he not?
f
19 A. I would say he's done a lot of work in
!
20 trying to correct the mineralogical definition - or
21 misdefinition of the tremolite in our talc.
22 Q. Did I misstate that when I said it?
r
23 A. Well, you said deregulate. I don't know
*
24 what the spin on that is.
:
25 Q. Okay. Well, because at one point it was
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regulated. That's what I meant. Right?
1 Q. Right.
-
A. Well, talc is regulated, too. I mean,
2
MR. McLEOD: I'll object as
3 it's - I mean, it's not as simple as that.
3 nonresponsive and move to strike.
4 Q. Okay. As an asbestos-containing material
4 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Help me out with this
r
5 as to its tremolite content, that's what I was
5 last name, B-O-E-H-L-E-C-K-E?
6 talking about --
6 A. Baylick [pronouncing].
*
7 A. Yes.
7 Q. Boehlecke. Are you familiar with
8 Q. --with regard to regulation.
8 Mr. Brian Boehlecke?
;
9
Do you know who Irving Tabershaw is?
9 A. Yes.
!
10 A. Yes.
10 Q. Does he work for R.T. Vanderbilt?
11 Q. Met him?
11 A. No.
|
12 A. No.
12 Q. Does he consult for R.T. Vanderbilt?
13 Q. Does he perform studies at the behest of
13 A. He does.
14 R.T. Vanderbilt?
14 Q. Is he paid for those services?
15 A. He did.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What kind of studies?
16 Q. What kind of services does he perform for
17 A. I think he did an industrial hygiene
17 R.T. Vanderbilt?
18 study, and maybe also a mortality study. I'm not
18 A. Well, specifically, he's an expert medical
19 quite sure.
19 doctor in pulmonary and occupational pulmonary
20 Q. Okay. When did he do the mortality study?
20 disease who used to work at NIOSH and who now
21 A. That would have been in the early '80s if
21 basically oversees the medical --the medical
[
22 he did that, or whatever -- however you call the
22 monitoring of our employees at Gouvemeur.
i
23 study.
23 Q. Is there a certain company name that he
24 Q. And what was that study done in response
24 works for, a company that he works for that
2 5 to?
25 R.T. Vanderbilt contracts with?
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A. To the NIOSH report on our talc. 2 Q. Okay. Tabershaw was hired to correct 3 the -- the NIOSH study? 4 A. To look into it, yes. 5 Q. Okay. Did I misstate it when I said to 6 correct it? 7 A. Well, to --no, I guess not. 8 Q. Okay. And --and he was paid for those 9 services, was he not? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. As well as the still hygiene surveys he 12 conducted before at Gouvemeur Talc, correct? 13 A. By Tabershaw? 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. I don't know how you break it down into 16 segments; but he did work, yes. 17 Q. Okay. Was that in response to litigation 18 on the issue of the talc tremolite asbestos 19 controversy? 20 A. Well, as I recall, that was largely in 21 response to the 1980 NIOSH report. 22 Q. Which was a very bad thing for 23 R.T. Vanderbilt, wasn't it? 24 A. Well, it was a mistake. Mistakes are 25 bad.
1 A. I'm -- I'm not familiar with it if he -
2 if he has a company, or whatever.
3 Q. Is the data that he produces used in
4 mortality studies for R.T. Vanderbilt?
5 A. I'm sure it will have been considered and
6 factored in, yes, since it's - he reviews the
*
7 X rays and the medical monitoring and -- and deals
8 with the individual employees and so on.
9 Q. And you'll agree with me that those are
10 kind of the building blocks of mortality and --and
11 disease studies, correct?
1
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And his data has been used in that fashion
14 in the past, right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Has it been used to contradict the 1980
17 study done by NIOSH?
18 A. Well, I think it contradicts all of the
19 mistaken assumptions that have been made by various
20 parties.
21 Q. Do you know who John Craighead is?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Have you ever met him?
24 A. I don't think so.
i
25 Q. Okay. He's listed as a testifying expert
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in this case. Do you know of any reports he's
produced in this case?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Have you met or consulted with him
5 regarding this case?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Generally, is he paid by R.T. Vanderbilt
8 for the work that he does, or do you know?
9 A. I would assume so, yes.
10 Q. Okay. He's not offering it up gratis, is
11 he?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Okay. And he's generally only engaged for
14 the purposes of defending R.T. Vanderbilt in
15 lawsuits, and that's it, is it not?
16
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
17 A. I think so, yes.
18 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) What I said is true?
19 A. Huh?
2 0 Q. What I said is true? He's only hired to
21 defend R.T. Vanderbilt -
22 A. Well, I think so. I'm not absolutely
23 certain that he hasn't done something else in the
24 last 20 years, or whatever.
25 Q. Just for R.T. Vanderbilt, though. That's
1 A. Well, he's done animal studies with
2 Vanderbilt -- which included Vanderbilt's talc.
3 Q. Are you sure about that?
4 A. Yes.
!
5 Q. How do you know that it was
6 R.T. Vanderbilt talc?
7 A. Well, because he described it as such; and
8 then he -- and he willed the -- he willed the - the
9 materials he used to Ann Wylie, who confirmed it.
10 Q. Uh-huh. Okay. And that's the only basis
11 you have for believing that --that R.T. Vanderbilt
a
12 talcs were used in Mearle Stanton's --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. --studies?
15 A. I believe he's dead. I haven't been able
-
16 to talk to him about it.
i
17 Q. It appears that we've got a little hearsay
j
18 issue there, doesn't it?
19
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
20 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) You did go to law
21 school.
;
22
Never mind.
~
23
Gary Oehlert, are you familiar with
24 that gentleman?
f
25 A. No.
Page 187
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what I'm talking about.
2 A. I know. That's what I'm saying.
3 Q. Okay. So, is the answer you don't know,
4 or you think that's what our --what --what the
5 situation is?
6
Let me rephrase that.
7
As far as you can tell, is -- is
8 Dr. Craighead only hired by R.T. Vanderbilt when
9 they need an expert to defend them in lawsuits
10 alleging asbestos-related injuries as a result of
11 exposure to R.T. Vanderbilt talc?
12 A. What was my - you have to read back my
13 answer. Was it "I think so, yes"? Is that what I
14 said?
15 Q. Is that your answer?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Just trying to be clear.
18
Do you know who Mearle Stanton is?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Have you ever met Mearle Stanton?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Are you aware of Mearle Stanton's work?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What type of work has Mearle Stanton done
25 regarding R.T. Vanderbilt talc?
1 Q. You're not familiar with his work at all?
2 A. I haven't heard the name.
3 Q. Back to Mr. Stanton. Was Mr. Stanton paid
4 by R.T. Vanderbilt for generating those studies that
5 he did?
-
6 A. I don't think he was, no.
7 Q. Okay. How about William Smith? Do you
8 know him?
9 A. Yes.
;
10 Q. And has William Smith acted in the
11 capacity of a paid consultant to the R.T. Vanderbilt
12 Company before?
13 A. Yes.
r
14 Q. In what regard?
^
15 A. Well, he also did an animal study,
16 specifically at our request, which used Vanderbilt
17 talc and whatever to determine its effects.
t
18 Q. Did R.T. Vanderbilt supply him with that
19 talc?
^
20 A. Yes.
r
21 Q. And was Dr. Smith paid for that research
?
22 by R.T. Vanderbilt?
23 A. I presume so.
24 Q. What was --what were these studies being
25 done in response to?
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A. In response to the allegations that there was asbestos in the talc. 3 Q. Did it have anything to do with litigation 4 against R.T. Vanderbilt on that issue? 5 A. As I've said several times before, it 6 probably was a bit of both -- 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. --but it --in the beginning, of course, 9 it was more of the regulation because the important 10 thing was OSHA and NIOSH and so on. 11 Q. So, William Smith was hired to consult for 12 R.T. Vanderbilt on these studies both as a result of 13 regulation of their talc as an asbestos-containing 14 material, as well as litigation filed on that same 15 issue? 16 A. Yes, although perhaps more of the former 17 issue. 18 Q. Do you know Yasushi Honda? Are you 19 familiar with that name? 2 0 A. I think that's the first name on a study 21 out of the University of Alabama, correct? 22 Q. Do you know that person? 2 3 A. No. 24 Q. Okay. Is that -- has that person ever 25 been hired as a consulting expert by
1 Q. Correct, it was.
f
2
Do you know whether or not she was
i
3 paid for participating in that study?
|
4 A. I presume so, yes.
5 Q. Okay. And, again, just like all the
i
6 others, this study was done in preparation for
|
7 litigation or in --in contravention of the
t
8 regulation on R.T. Vanderbilt talc, right?
1
9
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
j
10 A. Not in contravention of the regulation but
i
11 to respond to it, yeah.
L
12 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Okay. As a response to
^
13 the regulations?
L
14 A. Well, as I've said, we obviously want to
[
15 correct the misperceptions and the misdefinitions,
f
16 wherever they come from.
j
17 Q. Okay. Kent Oestenstad. Are you familiar
|
18 with that name?
|
19 A. I think I've heard the name go by, but
f
20 that's about all I know.
j
21 Q. You don't know anything other than that
f
22 about him?
j
23 A. No.
24 Q. Do you know whether or not this person has
25 ever been hired as a paid consultant by
L
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R.T. Vanderbilt?
2 A. Well, if that's the --the group that did
3 the study, yes.
4 Q. Okay. And they were all paid by
5 R.T. Vanderbilt for that study, correct?
6 A. Well, the study was paid for.
7 Q. Right.
8
And the money went to the people
9 performing the study, right?
10
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
11 A, I don't know about who got - who was paid
12 and --
13 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Was Dr. Honda paid by
14 R.T. Vanderbilt for conducting that study?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Was that study generated as a response to
17 regulations and as well as litigation regarding
18 R.T, Vanderbilt talc?
19 A. Yes.
2 0 Q. What about Elizabeth Delzell? Do you know
21 her?
2 2 A. I certainly have heard of her name, yeah.
2 3 Q. Okay. What kind of a study has she been
24 involved in for R.T. Vanderbilt?
25 A. It was the same study, wasn't it?
1 R.T. Vanderbilt?
[
2 A. No.
3 Q. What about Phillip Cole? Did Dr. Cole
4 ever worked for R.T. Vanderbilt?
5 A. I don't know.
?
6 Q. Do you know if Dr. Cole has ever performed
i
7 any studies involving R.T. Vanderbilt talc products?
f
8 A. No.
I
9 Q. You have no idea?
f
10 A. No.
11 Q. Has he ever been listed as an expert in
j
12 any lawsuit filed against R.T. Vanderbilt as a
13 result of their talc products making somebody sick,
14 allegedly?
15 A. Have I been?
16 Q. No, Phillip Cole, has he ever been?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. How about John Gamble? Do you know John
19 Gamble?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. Have you met with him yourself?
22 A. I don't think so.
23 Q. No?
24 A. No.
25 Q. You don't think so, or you're sure you
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haven't?
1
But the issues we're talking about,
1
A. I don't think so.
2 are we still talking about the regulation of
1
3 Q. But you're not sure?
3 R.T. Vanderbilt talc, as well as the litigation
1
4 A. I'm not absolutely certain, no.
4 pending against R.T. Vanderbilt
|
5 Q. Who is John Gamble?
5 alleging asbestos-related injuries?
I
6 A. He's one of those paid consultants of the
6 A. Yes.
|
1 R.T. Vanderbilt Company.
7 Q. And that's why he was hired?
f
8 Q. Was he being paid by R.T. Vanderbilt when
8 A. Yes.
1
9 he worked forNIOSH?
9 Q. What about Daniel Crain? Do you know
1
10 A. No.
10 Mr. Crain?
11 Q. Are you sure about that?
11 A. Yes.
j
12 A. I'm sure about that.
12 Q. Met him personally?
|
1 3 Q. How are you sure about that?
13 A. No.
f
14 A. Well, because aren't there little
14 Q. Are you sure?
|
15 questions of legality and other things involving
15 A. Been in the same room as he was, but I
16 that?
16 never met him.
f
17 Q. Hopefully. Hopefully.
17 Q. Never shook hands with him?
\
18
In what capacity does John Gamble
18 A. No.
1
19 serve as a paid consultant for R.T. Vanderbilt?
19 Q. Never spoke to him?
2 0 A. Well, he did a study for us.
2 0 A. No.
|
21 Q. What study?
21 Q. Who's Daniel Crain?
22 A. Well, I don't know. I know it generically
22 A. He's the head - or at least was the head
2 3 as the Gamble study.
23 of the OSIIA lab in Salt Lake City.
|
24 Q. And what was the Gamble study about?
24 Q. And has he ever been -- visited personally
25 A. It was a review of the mortality data
25 and met with R.T. Vanderbilt personnel, to your
f
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involving the Gouvemeur Talc employees.
2 Q. And, again, we're talking about the 1980
3 mortality study, correct?
4 A. No, that was NIOSH.
5 Q. Okay. Oh. You're right.
6
Was John Gamble paid for his service
7 by R.T. Vanderbilt in that regard?
8 A. After he left NIOSH and was working as a
9 consultant, yes.
10 Q. Does he continue to consult with
11 R.T. Vanderbilt today?
12 A. I don't think.
13 Q. When was the last time you talked to him?
14 A. I haven't - - 1just said I can't recall
15 ever having met him.
16 Q. That's right. That's right.
17
Why was he engaged as a - as a
18 consulting expert for R.T. Vanderbilt?
19 A. Because of his expertise on issues.
20 Q. What issues specifically was he engaged
21 for?
2 2 A. Well, he's an expert in occupational
23 pulmonary medicine, dust diseases, that sort of
24 thing.
25 Q. Sure.
1 knowledge?
\
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. Well, you just said you were in the same
f
4 room with him. Who else was in the room when you
5 were?
6 A. Well, a whole lot of people. That was a
f
7 government review committee.
I
8 Q. But you can't say one way or the other
i
9 whether or not anybody from R.T. Vanderbilt ever
10 went down to Salt Lake and met with Daniel Crain?
;
11 A. No.
12 Q. About anything ever?
r
13 A. No.
14 Q. Has Daniel Crain ever been a paid
l
15 consultant of the R.T. Vanderbilt company?
|
16 A. No.
1
17 Q. You're sure?
p
18 A. Yeah.
f
19 Q. Mr. Vanderbilt, can you tell me some
1
20 studies done on R.T. Vanderbilt talc prior to 1972
J
21 that was done by, say, someone not employed directly
22 or indirectly by R.T. Vanderbilt that did not
1
23 conclude that R.T. Vanderbilt talc contained
24 asbestos?
f
25 A. I'm afraid you're going to have to repeat
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that sentence --or question.
-
Q. Sure.
3
Can you tell me about some studies
4 conducted prior to 1972 that were done by someone
5 who was not employed by R.T. Vanderbilt, either
6 indirectly or directly, that did not find
7 R.T. Vanderbilt talc contained asbestos fibers?
8
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
9 A. I'm still not quite sure about the meaning
10 of that sentence. Can you shorten it a little bit?
11
Studies done prior to 72 --
12 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) By somebody not working
13 for Vanderbilt that found no asbestos fibers in
14 Vanderbilt talc.
15 A. Well, there weren't many studies that meet
16 that definition; and the answer is, I guess, no.
17 Q. You can't point to any studies prior to
18 72 -
19 A. I don't think it was really an issue prior
20 to 72, and even 1980.
21 Q. It was not an issue prior to 1990? Is
22 that what you just said?
23 A. 1980.
24 Q. 1980. Okay.
25
Do you know a gentleman named
1 Q. Do you know a gentleman named Allan
|
2 Harvey?
|
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I think we've mentioned him before, right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is he still working for R.T. Vanderbilt?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Is he retired?
f
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What was his job at R.T. Vanderbilt?
11 A. Well, he was a biochemist originally; and
12 then he was detailed to deal with the asbestos
13 allegations with regard to talc.
14 Q. Do you know how he went about dealing with
15 those allegations?
f
16 A. He developed information that would
f
17 contradict the assertion.
18 Q. Okay. How -- how did he develop that
19 information?
20 A. Well, I think that he hired people like
21 Tabershaw to respond to --to respond to the
22 allegations.
23 Q. Did he work directly with people like
24 Tabershaw to d to try to respond to those
25 allegations?
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R.C. Bacon?
2
MR. PICKERING: I'm sorry. What was
3 the last name?
4
MR. McLEOD: Bacon.
5
MR. PICKERING: B-A-C-O-N?
6 A. I've heard the name Bob Bacon.
7 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Okay. Do you know Bob
8 Bacon?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Ever met him?
11 A. I don't think so.
12 Q. Was he an employee of R.T. Vanderbilt?
13 A. If it's the Bob Bacon I'm thinking of,
14 yes.
15 Q. Well, let's just assume it is, okay? What
16 was Bob Bacon's job at R.T. Vanderbilt?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. In what -- in what context did you hear
19 Bob Bacon's name before?
2 0 A. Well, that he was an - an employee and
21 retiree, or whatever, of R.T. Vanderbilt Company.
2 2 Q. And that's all you know about Bob Bacon?
2 3 A. Yes.
24 Q. Absolutely nothing else?
25 A. No.
1 A. I guess he would have been their contact
2 point, or one of their contact points, at the
3 company, yes.
4 Q. Okay. And, of course- - well, forget
5 that.
6
We've already talked about Hugh
7 Vanderbilt -- you know him well, don't you -- Jr.?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. How -- how much time do you spend with
10 Hugh Vanderbilt, Jr., these days?
11 A. How much time?
12 Q. Yeah.
13 A. Well, we work in the same building.
14 Q. Y'all go golfing on the weekends?
15 A. No, I'm not a golfer.
16 Q. Okay. Is he ever your lunch date at work?
17 A. I think we're sort of different in those
18 ways.
19 Q. What do you mean?
20 A. Well, I'm -- I'm a Subway man, he's Burger
21 King, things like that.
22 Q. Okay. Got you.
23
Do you have any kind of a social
24 relationship with Hugh Vanderbilt?
25 A. Yes.
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Q. Would you consider yourself to be friendly? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Now, remind me what his position still is 5 at R.T. Vanderbilt today. 6 A. He's the Chairman, Chief Executive 7 Officer. 8 Q. And do you know what his job titles have 9 been throughout the years at R.T. Vanderbilt? 10 A. Well, he's done a little bit of 11 eveiything. He came up through the company. 12 Q. Okay. Did he ever spend any time working 13 in the mine? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Have you? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Has anybody with the last name Vanderbilt 18 worked in the mine, as far as you know? 19 A. No. 2 0 Q. Okay. And I hope you don't mind me asking 21 this: Is your - your family the Vanderbilt family 22 that used to have a big ownership interest in 23 railroads and such? 24 A. As far as we know, no. 25 Q. No? Okay.
1 meetings with NIOSH personnel to discuss the issue? j
2 A. During the study that they did, they may
|
3 have met him, yes.
|
4 Q. Okay. You said they may have. Do you
|
5 know, in fact, that he did?
|
6 A. No.
1
7 Q. How about Allan Harvey? Do you know, in
1
8 fact, that he did that as well?
9 A. Well, I know that there was correspondence
|
10 back and forth.
11 Q. From who to who?
|
12 A. From the NIOSH people to A1 Harvey.
13 Q. What about face-to-face meetings?
14 A. I presume there were some, but I'm not
1
15 aware of any in particular.
\
16 Q. You're not aware of any documents that
:
17 reflect any meetings that Allan Harvey or Konrad
18 Rieger had with NIOSH personnel regarding the 1980
19 mortality study?
2 0 A. Beyond the fact that there was
21 correspondence back and forth with A1 Harvey, no.
22 Q. Okay. What about Mr. Dennis Race? Now,
2 3 we mentioned that he is R.T. Vanderbilt's counsel,
24 right?
2 5 A. Outside counsel, yes.
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A. As I think I said in the Alabama
2 deposition, we haven't hired a genealogist to go
3 back to the 17th, 16th Century to figure out who --
4 whether we all come from the same root or not.
5 Q. Fair enough.
6
Who's Konrad Rieger?
7 A. Konrad Rieger is a ceramics engineer.
8 Q. Okay. And do you personally know
9 Mr. Rieger?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And has Mr. Rieger ever undertaken any
12 work to -- on the talc tremolite asbestos issue for
13 R.T. Vanderbilt?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And - and what type of work did he
1 6 specifically do in that regard?
17 A. Well, in his job description, his
18 professional qualification is as a ceramics
19 engineer; so, he works with talc on that basis.
20
And he also is extremely
21 knowledgeable about the - the talc asbestos issues
22 and the -- the definitional issues relating to the
2 3 mineralogy and so on; and he's assisted on that as
24 well.
2 5 Q. Do you know of him ever having any
1 Q. Okay. Do you know if he ever had any
2 face-to-face meetings with NIOSH people regarding
3 the 1980 mortality study that they did?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You have no idea --
6 A. It's very unlikely, since he became our
i
7 outside counsel around the same time as I joined the
8 company, which was after the NIOSH study had come
9 out.
10 Q. Absolutely sure about that?
11 A. Well, of what I just said, I'm sure, yes.
12 Q. Okay. Well, what 1was asking is whether
!
13 or not he had any meetings with NIOSH people to
j.
14 discuss the 1980 mortality study on Gouvemeur Talc
15 workers?
16 A. And I said it was highly unlikely because
17 the study came out four years before --
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. -- four or five years before he and I
20 joined the company.
21 Q. I assume that as R.T. Vanderbilt counsel
22 that Mr. Race has had ~ he's done a great deal of
j.
23 work on the issue of regulation of R.T. Vanderbilt
24 talc as --as an asbestos-containing material,
25 correct?
L
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A. Yes.
2
MR. PICKERING: Objection to form.
3
MR. McLEOD: And the basis would be?
4
MR. PICKERING: I'm not sure that he
5 has a basis for --
6
MR. McLEOD: Well, now, you object -
7 you objected. I'm just asking what your basis was
8 for objecting.
9
MR. PICKERING: I wasn't sure he had
10 a basis for answering that question. Calling for
11 speculation.
12
MR. McLEOD: Okay.
13 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Has -- is that generally
14 what Mr. Race and his law firm have done for
15 R.T. Vanderbilt over the years, is deal with
16 regulatory problems that they've had?
17
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
18 A. Well, there's one specific regu --
19 problem. They've done some other work as well.
20 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) What other work has Akin,
21 Gump and - and Mr. Race done for you -- or
22 R.T. Vanderbilt?
23 A. Coordinated the defense, and in some cases
24 have been the actual defense --defender of --in
25 specific -- specific lawsuits; and they've dealt
1 question --
1
2
MR. YORK: Just ask your questions.
|
3
MR. McLEOD: -- up or down or left
f
4 and right; and, you know, I'mjust ~
5
MR. YORK: Ask your questions.
|
6
MR. McLEOD: Well, I have been.
|
7 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) How many times has
i
8 Mr. Race acted as your defense counsel on personal
I
9 injury cases where talc was the alleged exposure?
f
10 A. Well, once or twice; and other parts of
11 the Akin, Gump law firm have represented Vanderbilt |
12 in particular locations, and he's been the --in
|
13 effect, the supervisory attorney, and specialist in
j
14 others.
15 Q. Who is G.E. Erdman, E-R-D-M-A-N?
I
16 A. He's the retired general manager of the
1
17 Gouvemeur Talc Company.
|
18 Q. He was the boss of Gouvemeur Talc?
I
19 A. Yes.
1
20 Q. When did he retire?
ij
21 A. 1don't know specifically.
22 Q. Can you tell me --
f
23 A. Some 10 years ago, give or take.
24 Q. Approximately 95-96, mid '90s?
25 A. Probably --probably before then.
f
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X with other things relating not to talc but to
2 Department of Transportation matters, things like
3 that.
4 Q. Your general, all-purpose counsel, then?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is that how you would describe him?
7
Would it --would --would it be fair
8 to say that the majority of Mr. Race's time and his
9 law firm's time, as it pertains to R.T. Vanderbilt's
10 talc issues, is spent on regulatory issues?
11 A. It was. And now it's perhaps more in the
12 lawsuit defense side.
13
MR. McLEOD: I'll try to do this
14 quietly off the record, but I really want you to
15 stop looking at the witness and nodding your head
16 when I ask him questions. I'm not saying that
17 you're doing it intentionally --
18
MR. YORK: I have no --
19
MR. McLEOD: --but this has been
2 0 going on the whole deposition; and I want it to
21 stop, please.
22
MR. YORK: This is your deposition.
23 I am not instructing the witness to do anything.
24
MR. McLEOD: No, no. You've just
2 5 been nodding your head every time I ask a
1 Q. Okay. Early '90s, probably?
2 A. I don't know more specifically than that.
j
3 Q. All right. As general manager of the
f
4 Gouvemeur Talc Company, was he concerned about the
5 tremolite talc issue?
1
6
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
J
7 A. Personally, you mean, or involved as - as
f
8 an officer in the company?
[
9 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Both.
10 A. I suppose so.
|
11 Q. Would that be important to a man that was
12 in charge of a mine, that -- that it was being
13 alleged that the ore coming out of that mine
14 contained appreciable amounts of carcinogenic
15 asbestos fibers?
16
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
17 A. He probably knew that the truth was; so,
|
18 he was able to counteract that.
f
19 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) How was he able to
2 0 counteract that?
?
21 A. Well, he was much more knowledgeable about t
22 this than you or I are --am -- are.
^
23 Q. Okay. Have you ever seen any written
1
24 correspondence that Mr. Erdman might have
2 5 distributed to employees of Gouvemeur Talc?
r
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A. I know that there have been notices that
_ have been put up on the notice board.
3 Q. Any of them have to do with regulation of
4 talc as an asbestos-containing material?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. Did any of them say that he was
7 going to do everything he could to --to fight the
8 regulations, that you're aware of?
9
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
10 A. I don't --can't remember the text. I
11 mean, I don't know if I would say he. Maybe the
12 company was fighting the issue, yes.
13 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Okay. And the company
14 fought that issue pretty hard over the years, didn't
15 they?
16 A. Well, we're still fighting the issue.
17 Q. Apparently.
18 A. Although, OSHA has changed its mind.
19 Q. Pardon?
20 A. I said although OSHA has changed its mind,
21 and a few others.
22 Q. Who's Slim Thompson?
23 A. Slim Thompson is a retired Ph.D.
24 mineralogist. He was an employee of the Vanderbilt
25 Company.
1 R.T. Vanderbilt personnel ever exerted influence
1
2 over the methods and manner in which OSHA and/or |
3 NIOSH analyzed their top samples for asbestos
1
4 content?
1
5 A. No.
|
6 Q. Do you think anybody from R.T. Vanderbilt
|
7 ever met with anybody from - from any of those
j
8 governmental agencies to -- to make suggestions
|
9 about how they ought to be looking at these samples
i
10 under microscopes and -- and things like that?
11 A. Well, there were consultations back and
\
12 forth going back to -- as I said, during the NIOSH
f
13 report, there was correspondence back and forth from l
14 the NIOSH agency to the Vanderbilt Company and -- i
15 relating to ongoing issues relating to the study;
j
16 and that's only proper.
f
17 Q. Lots of correspondence, right?
18 A. Questions and answers. I don't know -- if
19 you're going to ask me how many pages next, I don't
i.
20 know.
b
21 Q. Do you believe any relationships with
r
22 R.T. Vanderbilt personnel had with members of OSHA jj
23 or NIOSH ever compromised the integrity of the work l
24 done by either one of those agencies?
s
25 A. I don't think so.
Page 211
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Q. Also went by C.S. Thompson, correct?
1 Q. You feel like R.T. Vanderbilt has clean
2 A. Well, those are his correct initials.
2 hands on that matter?
1
3 Q. C.S. Thompson, Ph.D., right?
3 A. Yes.
i
4 A. Yes.
4 Q. You are aware of the -- the 1980 cohort
5 Q. And what was his job for R.T. Vanderbilt?
5 mortality study published by NIOSH researchers that
\
6 A. Mineralogist.
6 concluded that exposures to asbestiform, tremolite,
7 Q. And did he ever participate in any of the
7 and anthophyllite stand out as the prime suspect
1
8 regulatory proceedings that went on regarding
8 ideologic factors associated with an observed
[
9 R.T. Vanderbilt talc being classified as an
9 increase in bronchogenic cancer and nonmalignant
10 asbestos-containing product?
10 respiratory disease among the study cohort, which
|
11 A. Yes.
11 was made up of Gouvemeur Talc Company employees, f
12 Q. Was it his job to try to convince NIOSH
12 are you not?
f
13 and OSHA and the EPA and other governmental agencies 13
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
f
14 that it, in fact, was not?
14 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) You're aware of that
I
15 A. Well, his job would have been to assist in
15 study, right?
|
16 rectifying the mineralogical error, yes.
16 A. I'm aware of the 1989 --our study - 1
f
17 Q. Okay. Well, we're going to agree, like I
17 don't recall that specific sentence off the top of
|
18 said, to disagree on that; but was --was it his job
18 my head.
|
19 to --to try to counteract the regulations that were
19 Q. Well, do you recall that general idea
20 being -- that were coming down and trying to enforce
20 being a result of a study at the time?
21 standards on Gouvemeur Talc?
21 A. They thought that there was tremolite
:
22 A. His job was to make sure --or in part was
22 asbestos in the talc.
r
23 to make sure that the mineralogical definitions were
23 Q. And anthophyllite asbestos in the talc,
24 accurate and to correct any misdefinition.
24 corrects?
j
25 Q, Let me ask you, sir: Do you believe that
25 A. I'm not absolutely sure of that, but the
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tremolite was definitely the main bad actor.
-
Q. Okay. Do you know how R.T. Vanderbilt
3 reacted to that study?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. What -- what --how do you think
6 they reacted?
7 A. Well, as we discussed, they hired the firm
8 of Tabershaw to begin with to do a similar study and
9 got involved with mineral -- excuse me -- we got
10 involved with mineralogists and started this process
11 that we're in today.
12 Q. Do you believe that anybody from
13 R.T, Vanderbilt tried to exert any undue influence
14 over NIOSH personnel at any time?
15 A. Absolutely not.
16 Q. Okay. I'm going to have --
17
MR. McLEOD: What exhibit are we up
18 to?
19
COURT REPORTER: 7.
20 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) I'm going to have this
21 marked as Exhibit No. 7 and have it passed over to
22 you.
23
(Exhibit No. 7 marked.)
24 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) What I'm marking, sir, is
2 5 this is a summary report of the Division of
1 the course of pursuing the study of workers employed
2 by R.T. Vanderbilt Company, Inc., appropriate
3 disciplinary action is being taken.
4
Now, did I read that correctly?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now would you like to change your answer
7 as to whether or not R.T. Vanderbilt ever exerted
8 undue influence over NIOSH with regard to studies
9 that they were performing?
10
MR. PICKERING: Objection.
11 A. No.
12 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Okay. Well, let's
13 continue.
14
On Page 1, the report begins: The
15 National Institute for Occupational Safety & Health
16 (NIOSH) has been conducting an internal
17 investigation based on allegations that the studies
18 and correspondence relating to the issue of the
19 regulation of tremolite, anthophyllite and
20 actinolite initiated by the Division of Respiratory
21 Disease Studies, or the RDS, were influenced by
22 contacts with the R.T. Vanderbilt Company, Inc.,
23 which mines and handles such minerals.
24
Did I read that right? I think I
25 did.
Page 215
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Respiratory Disease Studies performed an ethical and
2 legal investigation. And the document is dated
3 August 11, 1988.
4
Are you familiar with that -- that
5 report?
6 A. I was aware of it, yes.
7 Q. Have you ever read it?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Okay. Well, let me read a --a couple of
10 points to you.
11
It starts saying, "Attached is the
12 summary report of the requested ethical and legal
13 investigation of NIOSH employees from the Division
14 of Respiratory Disease Studies who were involved
15 with studies of the employees of the R.T. Vanderbilt
1 6 Company, Inc."
17
That's the first paragraph, correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Skip down to the third: However, given
20 the circumstances found in the course of the
21 investigation, and despite the fact that no --that
22 one can never document motivation, the actions of
23 certain employees of the Division of Respiratoiy
24 Disease study create the appearance of a conflict of
2 5 interest. Based upon their inappropriate actions in --!
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. In the course of the investigation, it was
3 determined that NIOSH procedures regarding the
4 initiation of research studies were not followed, an
5 unauthorized procurement was committed, there were
6 frequent private visits and contacts between certain
7 of the RDS employees and the company, the company
8 being R.T. Vanderbilt, complimentary travel and
9 meals were provided to certain of the RDS employees
10 by company officials, and there was a failure to
11 communicate through the chain of command information
12 regarding all components of the study as well as
13 plans communicated to the RDS staff by the company
14 to influence actions within the Agency.
15
Now, did I get that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now would you like to change your answer?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Okay. All right. Let's skip down to the
20 next paragraph.
21
In 1980 NIOSH published a technical
22 report entitled "Occupational exposure to talc
23 containing asbestos: Morbidity, mortality, and
24 environmental studies of miners and millers. The
25 report concluded that occupational exposures to the
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talcs from the Gouvemeur Talc district in New York,
1 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Do - do you know how
I
- tremolite and anthophyllite are associated with an
2 R.T. Vanderbilt reacted to the investigation by the
|
3 increased risk of developing lung cancer."
3 DRDS regarding their employees and -- and
|
4
Did I read that correctly?
4 allegations of inappropriate relationships with
|
5 A. Yes.
5 NIOSH personnel?
f
6 Q. Okay. And in the - in the next
6 A. Actually, I wasn't very involved in this
|
7 paragraph, it goes on to talk about meetings between
7 particular issue; so, no, I don't know the details.
f
8 Konrad Rieger and John Gamble of the DRDS.
8 Q. But it looks like Mr. Harvey and
f
9 Mr. Rieger, as we've talked about before, was --was
9 Mr. Rieger were, correct?
10 an employee of the R.T. Vanderbilt Company, was he
10 A. I don't know whether they were interviewed
|
11 not?
11 on the matter.
12
MR. PICKERING: Object to form. If
12 Q. Well, it says in the - in the report here
13 you're going to ask him to comment on what something 13 that Mr. Rieger and Mr. Harvey were two of the
i
14 says, please give him an opportunity to read what
14 people that frequently met with NIOSH folks about
15 you're talking about, Matt.
15 the mortality study and -- in an effort to generate
*
16
MR. McLEOD: Well -
16 a new study that would contradict it. Is that your
!
17
MR. PICKERING: You said - said that
17 understanding of what happened?
18 he characterized what something says, and you're
18
MR. PICKERING: If you need to refer
f
19 asking him about ~
19 to the document, please do.
20
MR. McLEOD: Sure. Sure. Sure.
20 A. Yes, they petitioned the NIOSH branch to
21
MR. PICKERING: --characterization.
21 look into our concerns about mineralogical
22
MR. McLEOD: I got you. Okay. I
22 definitions.
|
23 don't want to have to read the whole thing in here.
23 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) But they didn't follow
|
24
MR. PICKERING: Give him an
24 procedure --normal NIOSH procedure to -- to get
|
25 opportunity to read it, whatever you want.
25 that petitioning done, did they?
Page 219
Page 221 j
MR. McLEOD: Got you. I'm trying to
2 decide what I want to --want to have him read.
3 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Skip over to Page 3 at
4 the bottom.
5
From 1984 through 1986, there were 14
6 documented meetings between officials of
7 R.T. Vanderbilt Company and members of the DRDS
8 Morgantown staff.
9
That sounds like that's a --a pretty
10 strong effort on behalf of R.T. Vanderbilt to try
11 and influence studies, does it - does it not?
12
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
13 A. What is your question?
14 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) My - I'll withdraw the
15 question.
16
I think the report speaks for itself,
17 but your - your --your opinion is - is that no
18 relationship that R.T. Vanderbilt ever had with any
19 NIOSH personnel compromised the integrity of their
20 work or created any kind of a conflict of interest
21 with that governmental agency?
22 A. That's true.
2 3 Q. Okay.
24
MR. McLEOD: Let's leave that and
25 attach it as Exhibit 7.
1
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
1
2 A. Well, I can't answer to NIOSH procedure;
f
3 but I know that we had a perfect right to --
4 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Okay.
5 A. --petition the Government, so to speak.
:
6 I think it's in the Constitution.
^
7 Q. Sure.
f
8
And are you aware that Mr. Race is
9 listed in here as -- as one of the folks that went
10 ahead and accompanied R.T. Vanderbilt staffto NIOSH
11 to discuss --
12 A. No--
13 Q. --these issues?
j
14 A. - - 1haven't read the document; or if I
;
15 saw it, it was a long time ago, so I can't talk
|
1 6 to -
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. - these issues. I would have to read the
19 whole thing.
20 Q. Okay. Well, I suggest that you do.
21
MR. PICKERING: Objection to
22 side-bar. I mean, is that a question or what,
23 Matt? Come on.
24
MR. McLEOD: No, it's not. It's just
25 good reading.
i
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MR, McLEOD: I'd like to have this
marked as Exhibit No. 8.
3
(Exhibit No. 8 marked.)
4 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Now - bear with me just
5 a second.
6
Now, you say you --were you involved
7 in -- in communications with NIOSH at all regarding
8 the 1980 mortality study?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Because this is dated 1988, and you were
11 with the company by that point in time.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You had no contact with them at all?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Okay. And can you --can you tell us how
16 the company reacted to that 1980 study after this
17 ethical investigation was performed?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Okay. I'm going to hand you Exhibit No. 8
20 here. And I'm just referring to the --to the
21 document on the right-hand side, Mr. Vanderbilt.
22 That's --that's an interoffice memorandum from
23 Mr. Erdman to all employees. It's dated May 27,
24 1988.
25
Do you see that?
1
Did I read that right?
\
2 A. Yes.
1
3
MR. PICKERING: Object to the part of
f
4 the question characterized the reason for it.
|
5
MR. McLEOD: Well - okay. All
I
6 right.
|
7 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) It looks to me like
1
8 R.T. Vanderbilt is --is determined to do whatever
\
9 is necessary at this point to --
|
10 A. At that point--
11 Q. - to change the regulations.
|
12 A. --at that point we'd sued OSHA, yes.
!
13
MR. PICKERING: Objection to form.
|
14 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Okay. Well, do you know
f
15 what NI -- do you know what NIOSH's position after
16 it came -- after the -- the ethical investigation
i
17 came out and their -- their members that had
;;
18 inappropriate relationships with R.T. Vanderbilt
|
19 folks were disciplined? Did their position ~ do
i
20 you know whether or not their position changed on
21 that 1980 morbidity and mortality study done at
22 Gouvemeur Talc?
|
2 3 A. If their position changed with regard to
|
24 what particular study?
25 Q. The 1980 study that - that set this whole
Page 223
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A. Yes.
1 chain of events in motion with regard --
f
2 Q. Subject --To: All Employees. It's talc
2 A. I think so. I think they found that there
|
3 standard status. And it starts off: From time to
3 were problems with the mineralogical
f
4 time, I'm asked about the status of the stay on the
4 characterization, too.
|
5 regulation of our talc product under the asbestos
5 Q. Is that right?
1
6 standard by OSHA.
6 A. Yes.
1
7
Did I get that right?
7 Q. Do you know they followed it up with a
|
8 A. Which --where --
8 1990 study?
i
9 Q. In the first sentence.
9 A. Well, I know that there are dueling
f
10 A. (Reading to self.) Yes.
10 studies. There are studies from one group, and then
[
11 Q. Okay. If you skip down to the second
11 there is the studies from the NIOSH group.
12 paragraph, it says, "Our corporate management is
12 Q. Okay. We'll get that -- to that in just a
13 determined to force the issue with NIOSH and OSHA at 13 second, but I have a copy of the summary evaluation
f
14 this time so that the confusion created by the
14 report which was, as you'll find as you read the
|
15 stayed regulation is not perpetuated."
15 ethical investigation paper, something that was
i
16
Did I get that right?
16 requested by -- by R.T. Vanderbilt, in short..
|
17 A. Yes.
17
MR. McLEOD: And I'll have this
l
18 Q. Now, why is that important?
18 marked as Exhibit No. 10, please.
f
19 A. Well, from reading this, you'll have to
19
COURT REPORTER: 9.
20 tell me.
20
MR. PICKERING: 9.
I
21 Q. Well, I think Mr. Erdman tells us because
21
MR. McLEOD: 9. Sorry.
f
22 in the third paragraph it says, "We are certain that
22
(Exhibit No. 9 marked.)
!
23 the prospect of labeling our product as asbestos as
23
COURT REPORTER: Do you want me to
24 required by OSHA regulations would lead to a rapid
24 pass it to him?
f
2 5 loss of our business."
25
MR. McLEOD: Yes, ma'am. Thank you.
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Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Have you ever seen that
before, to your knowledge?
3 A. This is the 1990 --
4 Q. Right.
5 A. Yes, I have.
6 Q. Okay. And if you'll open that up to the
7 first page under "Summary" and go down to the
8 bottom-to-the-last paragraph above "Key Words" where
9 it says - and -- and follow along with me -- "In
10 summary, the results of this updated study support
11 the findings of an excess risk for lung cancer and
12 nonmalignant respiratory disease which was observed
13 in these workers by NIOSH researchers in 1980. The
14 recommendations for control of exposure made in the
15 1980 report remain appropriate. It is recommended
16 that this cohort be updated and reanalyzed after ten
17 more years of observation."
18
Did I get that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Does it sound like their position has
21 changed since 1980?
22 A. No.
2 3 Q. What's that?
24 A. No.
2 5 Q. It does not, does it?
1 human beings?
1
2
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
|
3 A. Again, I don't know which day or month. I
f
4 know I became aware when my father would return from f
5 board meetings and tell us that OSHA had alleged
|
6 that there was asbestos in our talc.
|
7 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) So, it was after OSHA
8 came out?
9 A. Yeah, after '72.
10 Q. All right. Does R.T. Vanderbilt as a
11 company have a position on whether or not there's a
12 safe level about --of --of exposure to asbestos
j
13 for human beings?
|
14
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
1
15 A. We have a position that there's no
j
16 asbestos in our talc; so, we don't get into that
17 issue.
18 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) I understand that you
19 claim there's no asbestos in your talcs; but what
2 0 you're telling me, I guess, is that they have no
21 thoughts on the subject at all?
22
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
2 3 A. I think you'd have to talk to John Kelse
24 on that subject.
2 5 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) You wouldn't know the
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Can you tell me NIOSH's position
2 today on excess lung cancers and --and
3 pneumoconiosis of workers --
4 A. I don't know what their current position
5 is on it.
6 Q. Okay. Sir, would you agree with me that
7 asbestos is a harmful substance?
8 A. Asbestos? Yes.
9 Q. And -- and when did you first learn, you,
10 yourself, that asbestos was harmful?
11
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
12 A. Well, I remember reading that Marco Polo
13 supposedly was shown that -- when he was visiting
14 China that women who wove funeral shrouds, or
15 whatever, out of asbestos had a tendency to die
16 fairly quickly; but --
17 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) So, are you hying to
18 tell me that's the first knowledge that you
19 gained --
20 A. At some part actually - well, I mean, you
21 know, I wasn't really particularly concerned with
22 Vanderbilt talc at that time; but I was generally
23 aware that asbestos was a problem.
24 Q. Okay. My question to you, sir, was: When
25 did you first learn that asbestos can be harmful to
1 answer to that question?
2 A. Well, we're not in the habit of putting
3 out press releases on subjects that generally don't
4 concern us.
5 Q. I'm not asking about press releases. I'm
6 just asking as a --as a general -- as -- as the --
7 R.T. Vanderbilt's corporate representative sitting
8 here today testifying in this case, do you know of a
9 position that R.T. Vanderbilt has with regard to
10 safe levels of asbestos exposure for people?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Do you have any idea generally when it
13 became well-known in industry that asbestos, in
14 fact, was dangerous in the United States?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Or abroad?
17 A. No.
f
18 Q. You have no idea when the medical and
^
19 industrial literature began to accumulate on that
20 subject?
21 A. Yes, after the fact, I've ~ I've, you
22 know, heard a lot of stuff including, as I say, this
23 thing about Marco Polo. I mean, I heard that there
24 were issues in shipyards and studies in -- by
|
25 British medical researchers and so on.
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Q. Okay. But you don't have -- you don't
1 we used to sell a product that was supposed to
|
have any idea when --when experts generally agree
2 assist in maintaining banana plants healthy. We
f
3 that --that it was well-known that asbestos --
3 haven't done that in a long while; so, we had a
f
4 A. No.
4 shelf full of books about banana plants and such,
\
5 Q. -- caused disease in people?
5 and we sold off the -- the books.
1
6
You couldn't tell us when that was?
6 Q. Anything related to talc sales or
{:
7 A. No.
7 promotion of talc products in that library that you
j-
8 Q. Is R.T. Vanderbilt - strike that.
8 sold off in the '90s?
[
9
R.T. Vanderbilt has, from time to
9 A. No.
L
10 time, participated in -- in trade organizations
10 Q. Okay. Have you, yourself ever been a
|
11 relevant to its business, have they not?
11 member of any of the trade organizations that
l
12 A. Yes.
12 R.T. Vanderbilt's a member of?
i.
13 Q. Okay. And would you be the person most
13 A. Personally?
I
14 knowledgable to talk to about those trade
14 Q. Yeah.
r
15 organizations within R.T. Vanderbilt?
15 A. No.
[
16 A. Not with regard to our participation in
16 Q. Have you ever been a --are you aware of
\
17 them, no.
17 R.T. Vanderbilt being member of the ASTM?
18 Q. Does R.T. Vanderbilt receive publications
18 A. Yes, that's not, I don't think, a trade
19 from trade organizations?
19 association; but, yes.
20 A. Yes.
20 Q. Well, we'll call it trade association
i
21 Q. Do you know when that first started
21 today.
|
22 happening?
22 A. Well, I don't think you ought to because
|
23 A. No.
23 it's not.
|
24 Q. Does R.T. Vanderbilt maintain a library
24 Q. Okay. Thanks for the correction.
25 where those publications are kept?
25
Who --who - which R.T. Vanderbilt
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A. No. 2 Q. Does R.T. Vanderbilt maintain any kind of 3 library at all? 4 A. Not anymore. 5 Q. They used to have one? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Why don't they have one anymore? 8 A. The library was completely out of date and 9 related to products that we no longer manufacture; 10 so, we sold it off to a --to a company that, I 11 think, had a library of old scientific texts and so 12 on. 13 Q. Okay. When did that happen? 14 A. During the '90s, I think. 15 Q. 1990? Is that what you said? 16 A. Yeah. 17 Q. And what kind of a documents were those, 18 exactly, that were in the library? 19 A. Books. 2 0 Q. Pardon? 21 A. Books. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. Chemistry texts, texts relating to 24 particular industries and, as I say, pro - products 2 5 and -- that we no longer sold to and -- for example,
1 employees are members of the ASTM?
2 A. Well, there have been various employees.
|
3 Most of the employees, I think, who are members of
\
4 particular committees are there because of their
5 professional qualifications. And it's mostly in the
f
6 chemical field; but I think we've had Slim Thompson |
7 and A1 --A1 Harvey, I think, were on the relevant
|
8 committee.
I
9 Q. And Slim Thompson and A1 Harvey are --
10 their --their main job pertains to --to talc at
11 R.T. Vanderbilt; is that right?
1
12 A. Yes.
1
13 Q. Did those two gentlemen receive
14 publications from the ASTM over the years?
15 A. I don't know.
j
16 Q. Do you know when they joined?
f
17 A. Excuse me?
|
18 Q. Do you know when they joined?
19 A. No.
t
20 Q. What about The Refractories Institute?
|
21 Has anybody, to your knowledge, from R.T. Vanderbilt
22 been a member of The Refractories Institute?
23 A. I think that a retired employee was a
jj
24 member of The Refractories Institute about 20 years
l
25 ago, from what I've been told.
1
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Q. Who is that? - A. I don't remember his name. 3 Q. Okay. How would I find that out? 4 A. You'd have to ask Randy Johnson, who I 5 previously mentioned. 6 Q. Has R.T. Vanderbilt ever been a member of 7 the National Safety Council? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Never, ever? 10 A. No. 11 Q. American Mining Congress? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And who from R.T. Vanderbilt has been a 14 member of the American Mining Congress? 15 A. Well, I think the company was a member; 16 and I think A1 Harvey and John Kelse may have been 17 members of their health and safety committee. 18 Q. Do you know whether or not those gentlemen 19 received publications from the American Mining 2 0 Congress? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Okay. Sir, was there a time when 23 R.T. Vanderbilt was required to stamp their products 24 with asbestos labels --or asbestos warning labels? 25 Their talc products?
1 A. Well, our mineralogist who had joined us
2 from Union Carbide's chrysotile operation and was
3 therefore knowledgeable and used to looking at
4 chrysotile looked down the microscope at these
5 particular talc grades; and he saw fibers. And he
6 presumed that they were chrysotile and reported them
7 as such, and we then put the asbestos label on those
8 particular products.
9
It turned out after further study
10 that this was a mineralogical curiosity. In fact,
11 was fibers, but talc fibers; and talc fibers are not
12 on the asbestos standard. And talc is the softest
13 mineral in the world with a --on the Moe scale,
14 it's the softest. So that what we had done was
15 perfectly proper, but it was in error.
16 Q. That sounded an awful lot like an answer a
17 mineralogist would give. Did you get some training
18 at the break?
19 A. I don't know whether I should resent what
20 you just said or not, but we'll let it pass.
21 Q. How long did R.T. Vanderbilt bags contain
22 asbestos warnings?
2 3 A. Those grades concerned them for about four
24 years or so, three or four years.
25 Q. So, what years would that be,74 ~
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A. Was there a time when R.T. Vanderbilt was
2 required to? No.
3 Q. Are you sure?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Was there a time when R.T. Vanderbilt
6 gratuitously decided to stamp their product with
7 asbestos warnings?
8 A. Well, we didn't do it gratuitously; but,
9 yes --
10 Q. Okay. When was that?
11 A. - on certain specific products.
12
That was in 74/75.
13 Q. Okay. And what products are we talking
14 about specifically?
15 A. These were particular talc grades, four or
16 five of them.
17 Q. Fibrous talcs?
18 A. Well, that's exactly what it was, yes, not
19 asbestos but fibrous talc.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. It was misidentified as asbestos.
22 Q. How did that come to pass that
23 R.T. Vanderbilt decided they were going to start
24 putting asbestos warnings on these bags of so-called
25 fibrous talc?
1 A. 74 or '5 through - - 1--something like
2 the end of 77.
3 Q. And what specific products carried
4 asbestos warning labels during the 70s?
5 A. Well, there was Fibertal 1 and 2;
6 Mouldene; a product called 6N, or maybe 6N Fiber;
7 and I think there was another one, which I don't
8 recall.
9
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Matt, four
10 minutes.
11
MR. McLEOD: Okay.
12
THE WITNESS: Can I take a quick
13 break?
14 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Would the other one be PL
15 Fiber?
16 A. I'm not sure.
17 Q. Okay.
18
MR. McLEOD: Sure, we can take a
19 break.
20
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at
21 2:16. This is the end of Tape 3.
22
(Recess taken).
23
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're on the
24 record at 2:30. This is the beginning of Tape 4.
25 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Mr. Vanderbilt, do you
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mind if I take a look at those exhibits you're
- perusing?
3
MR. PICKERING: All of them?
4
MR. McLEOD: Yeah. Ijustw antto
5 make sure I --thank you --I've got everything in
6 line here.
7 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) I'm not sure if we
8 touched on this before, Mr. Vanderbilt, but is Slim
9 Thompson still around?
10 A. Thankfully, yes.
11 Q. Thankfully?
12
He's still guarding R.T. Vanderbilt's
13 interests?
14 A. Well, I guess he's --he's -- he's had a
15 few medical problems; but other than that ~
16 Q. Do you know what his age is?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Is he getting up there, or is he --
1 9 A. He's got to be in his - he's got to be
20 80,1think.
21 Q. Okay. Do you know if he's ever testified
22 in any case where an asbestos-related injury was --
23 was -- was alleged against R.T. Vanderbilt as a
24 result of talc products they sold?
25 A. Testified how?
1 technical issues.
2 Q. Okay. Has Kelse taken over for him pretty
3 well?
4 A. He has a different professional
5 qualification; but essentially, yes.
6 Q. Okay. If I needed to take Mr. Thompson's
7 deposition in this case, where would I find him?
8 A. He lives in Norwalk, Connecticut.
9 Q. And you have his contact information, I
10 assume?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you could pass that along to your
13 attorneys without too much trouble?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now I want to go back to this issue. Who
16 is this mineralogist from Union Carbide that decided
17 y'all had chiysotle in your talc?
18 A. We've just been talking about him.
19 Q. I know. What's his name?
20 A. Slim Thompson,
21 Q. Slim Thompson? Okay. Well, that's
22 interesting.
23
How did that affect R.T. Vanderbilt's
24 talc business during those years when their
25 Fibertal, Mouldene, and --and other fibrous talcs
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Q. In deposition or trial.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. He has been deposed before?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay.
6
MR. McLEOD: I was not provided a
7 copy of that deposition. I'd ask that it be
8 produced.
9
You're shaking your head.
10
MR. YORK: I don't have a copy of his
11 deposition.
12
MR. PICKERING: I'll make inquiries,
13 but I don't --
14
MR. McLEOD: Okay.
15
MR. PICKERING: I've given you
1 6 everything I was given. I'll see if I can find out
17 where it is. I don't know that it still exists, but
18 I'll make inquiiy.
19
MR. McLEOD: Okay.
20 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Do you know what he was
21 testifying about specifically?
22 A. Well, in two depositions, he was sort of
23 my -- my --I don't know whether you would call it
24 my partner, or whatever. I talked about the
25 corporate issues, and so on; and he talked about the
1 contained that asbestos warning -- warning labels on
2 the packages? --
3 A. Well, it didn't do those ~ it didn't do
4 those particular products any good.
5 Q. Did it hurt the sales?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Because asbestos was being regulated under
8 OSHA at that time, right?
9 A. Well, yes.
10 Q. So, really, if y'all --if you thought
11 there was asbestos fibers in these -- in these talc
12 products, then you were required by OSHA to put that
13 warning labels on the packaging, weren't you?
14 A. That was our thought process.
15 Q. Okay. Well, it's not just your thought
16 process, it was the law, correct?
17
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
18 A. Well, I mean, we could have challenged it
19 if we thought -- the whole issue of talc fibers and
20 so on was - 1don't know whether it can be called a
21 mineralogical curiosity, but the mineralogical
22 education of a lot of people has been progressing.
23 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Okay. Well, a little
24 while ago -- and correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure
2 5 you will --but you made it sound like you ~
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R.T. Vanderbilt just gratuitously decided to stamp - asbestos warning labels on their bags of fibrous 3 talc -4 A. I don't think I used the word 5 gratuitously. I think I objected to that, if I'm 6 not mistaken. 1 Q. Well, your lawyer will object --object 8 for you. 9 A. Obviously, we're not just going to put 10 asbestos labels on products willy-nilly. 11 Q. Unless you're required to do so, correct? 12 A. Well, exactly. 13 Q. Because that's pretty bad for your 14 business, isn't it? 15 A. Well, yes. 16 Q. Does R.T. Vanderbilt get calls from 17 customers expressing concern about the possible 18 asbestos content of their talc products? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And is that something that you address in 21 your capacity, working for R.T. Vanderbilt? 22 A. I have done in the past. 23 Q. And how did you address those concerns? 24 A. By explaining the situation. 25 Q. You would reassure those people that the
1 A. I'm sure I did.
!
2 Q. People like Ann Wylie?
3 A. I would have provided things like the
*
4 mineralogical analyses of talc, yes.
\
5 Q. Okay. Is there a policy on how to
|
6, responds to those calls when they come in, if they
7 do?
8 A. No.
9 Q. It's just up to whoever picks up the
10 phone?
11 A. Well, they're usually sent to John Kelse
12 at this point.
13 Q. So, the policy is, let Kelse handle it?
14 A. Well, he deals with it, although some of
15 the rest of us obviously will have occasion to have
16 a look at it occasionally.
17 Q. Okay. Should companies like
18 R.T. Vanderbilt be held accountable for violating
19 the law?
20
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
j
21 A. I guess everybody should be.
22 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Well, if R.T. Vanderbilt
23 broke the law, should they be held accountable for
24 it?
25 A. Yes.
~
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products are safe and they have no asbestos in them?
2 A. Yes. And of the OSHA issues and why it
3 has arisen and what our position is and so on.
4 Q. Can you think of the last time when you
5 handled one of those such calls in that manner?
6 A. No.
7 Q. How recent has that been?
8 A. Well, I've -- I'm sort of out of the
9 environmental affairs business, and have been for at
10 least 10 years; so --
11 Q. Okay. So, what, sometime in the '90s?
12 A. Sometime during the post-1984 to, say, the
13 early '90s, yes.
14 Q. You were handling calls like that from
15 concerned customers?
16 A. I have done, yes.
17 Q. Did you ever handle those concerned calls
18 in any other way than how you just described?
19 A. Well, I'm not a technical person; so, if
20 people ask me what the issue was, I would explain
21 what the issue was relating to regulations and laws
22 and - and so on. If they had technical questions,
23 that would go further to other people.
24 Q. Did you provide them with any information
25 from the -- the experts that y'all consulted with?
\ ' V. ....................................
.............
1 Q. Whose job is it at R.T. Vanderbilt to stay
2 abreast of all the laws they need to be following,
3 at least with regard to talc sales?
4 A. That would be John Kelse's department.
5 Q. So, I should ask him about that --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. - instead of you?
8 A. Although --I mean, there are other people
9 who can become aware; but he's the - the manager of
10 the - what is it he called -- risk --risk control
11 department, or whatever.
12 Q. You're not concerned with things like that
13 at R.T. Vanderbilt?
14
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
15 A. Yes, I am.
16 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) So, do you and Mr. Kelse
17 work hand-in-hand on those kind of issues?
18 A. If we have occasion to; but generally
19 speaking, he's in charge.
20 Q. Would you agree with me that it is
21 important to have competent people who pay attention
22 to medical literature, state laws, governmental
23 regulation, those kind of things, in charge of, say,
24 a safety or medical program in a company like
25 R.T. Vanderbilt?
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A. Yes.
-
Q. Do you have a medical program at
3 R.T. Vanderbilt right now?
4 A. With regard to Gouvemeur Talc Company?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And -- and what kind of things does
8 that --that program do?
9 A. Excuse me?
10 Q. How does that program function? What do
11 they do?
12 A. Well, there's a medical monitoring program
13 which is handled by a local - a local doctor; but
14 as I said, the --the main and important person in
15 the program is this Dr, Brian Boehlecke that you
1 6 mentioned who's, I think, recognized as one of the
17 nationally reknowned pulmonologists and specialists
18 in occupational lung disease.
1 9 Q. Who's the local doctor that y'all rely on?
20 A. I don't know his - the current one.
21 Q. Have you used several over the years of
22 your employment at R.T. Vanderbilt?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. When did they first establish a medical
25 monitoring for R.T. Vanderbilt for their own
1 A. I don't handle the --the Worker's
t
2 Compensation issues; so, I don't see the claims as
j
3 they come in, or the papers.
f
4 Q. And you've never heard of that kind of
1
5 thing happening, either?
|
6 A. I've heard of claims for things like lung
7 cancer and mesothelioma, yes.
1
8 Q. Okay. And do you know what causes
I
9 mesothelioma?
f
10 A. I'm told that there are various things
|
11 that cause it.
f
12 Q. Really. What --what have you heard
1
13 causes mesothelioma?
14 A. Well, I'm not a medical doctor; but I've
15 heard asbestos is the predominant cause, but there's
^
16 also idiopathic mesothelioma and other causes.
17 Q. Okay. And what's idiopathic mean?
18 A. I'm not quite sure, but that --sort of
19 caused by --without any known cause --
20 Q. All right.
21 A. --running a known route.
22 Q. How many --how many former or current
23 employees of R.T, Vanderbilt or Gouvemeur Talc are
24 you aware of having mesothelioma?
25 A. I don't know.
j
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workers?
1 Q. Who would know that?
?
2 A. I don't know.
2 A. John Kelse.
i
3 Q. '70s? '80s? Was it before or after you
3 Q. Kelse would be the man to ask about that?
|
4 came onboard?
4 A. Yes.
f
5 A. I don't know. You'd have to ask John
5 Q. Does R.T. Vanderbilt keep track of
6 Kelse.
6 Worker's Compensation cases?
7 Q. Have you ever heard of anyone employed by
7 A. Yes.
8 Gouvemeur Talc or R.T. Vanderbilt filing a --a
8 Q. Do they --are the plaintiffs in those
9 Worker's Compensation claim where they allege an
9 cases generally deposed, or do you know?
10 asbestos-related injury?
10 A, I don't know.
11 A. I'm not aware of - of actual --of --of
11 Q. Have you ever reviewed any deposition
:
12 specific allegations and so on. I know that they've
12 testimony wherein a Gouvemeur Talc or
;
13 claimed talc disease, yes.
13 R.T. Vanderbilt employee was alleging that they had
14 Q. And I --I'm aware that they have, too, on
14 contracted an asbestos-related disease in the course
15 talc disease; but what - are - are - you're
15 of their employment?
16 unable to testify as to having any knowledge about
16 A. Not with regard to a Worker's Compensation
17 any employee of Gouvemeur Talc or the
17 case.
f
18 R.T. Vanderbilt Company who's ever brought a claim
18 Q. Just a regular old personal injury case?
19 alleging asbestos-related injury?
19 A. Yes. Well, I may have.
20 A. Yes.
20 Q. And this --this is an employee?
21 Q. Never heard of that before?
21 A. Huh?
22 A. No.
22 Q. This is an employee of Gouvemeur Talc?
23 Q. You've never heard of a Gouvemeur Talc
23 A. Yes.
24 employee making a Worker's Compensation claim from 24 Q. So, they're able to sue their employers
25 having contracted mesothelioma?
25 outside of the Worker's Compensation statute that
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way? - A. Well, they attempted to, because they 3 wanted to ride the asbestos bandwagon and were 4 tempted by attorneys to do so; and they filed claims 5 alleging conspiracy and all of that, and --what is 6 that, willful --whatever the thing is that gets you 7 around the usual negligence standard and whatever; 8 and those cases were all dismissed. 9 Q. Okay. And where are the records of those 10 cases kept? 11 A. Well, probably by our then New York 12 attorney. 13 Q. What about R.T. Vanderbilt? Do y'all keep 14 records of those cases. 15 A. I personally don't. I think Dennis Race 16 might have more records than I do. 17 Q. He has the personal injury records? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. Certainly for those cases. 21 Q. And does Mr. Race compile a list of all 22 the asbestos cases that have been brought against 23 R.T. Vanderbilt? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And do you know that to be in his
1 asbestos standard?
2 A. Can you repeat the question, please?
3 Q. Certainly.
4
Has R.T. Vanderbilt's talc ever been
j
5 found to be an asbestos-containing material in any
6 OSHA administrative hearing based on a violation of
7 an asbestos standard?
8 A. Yes, it has been.
9 Q. How many times?
10 A. I'm not sure. Perhaps --at least once.
11 I don't know what the -- we've been cited about two
12 or three times. I don't - - or three or four times.
13 I don't know what the result of the appeal process
14 was.
I
15 Q. Do you recall any of the other parties
16 that were in - involved in any of those cases other
17 than R.T. Vanderbilt?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Okay. Have you produced those documents
20 in this case?
21 A. I guess not.
22 Q. Do you still have them?
23 A. I haven't seen them in a long time, but --
24 Q. Did you look for them when you searched
25 your records?
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possession? 2 A. Well, there's a spreadsheet, yes. 3 Q. Would that be unduly burdensome to 4 produce? 5 A. Probably not. 6 Q. Can you tell me the kind of information 7 that's contained in that spreadsheet? 8 A. Names of -- name of plaintiff or who is 9 lead plaintiff, defendant, courts, date, attorney or 10 resolution, that sort of thing. 11 Q. Would it have the disease type that was 12 alleged, like mesothelioma or lung cancer or 13 asbestosis? 14 A. To some degree, yes. 15 Q. And these are all cases that have been 16 brought against R.T. Vanderbilt alleging asbestos 17 injury as a result of exposure to talc? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Does Mr. Race keep the depositions that 20 are given in those cases? 21 A. I don't know. 22 Q. Sir, to your knowledge, has 23 R.T. Vanderbilt's Talc been found to be an 24 asbestos-containing mere --material in any OSHA 25 administrative hearing based on a violation of an --swn
1 A. No, because OSHA has overruled the whole
2 issue by rule making and -- by hearings and rule
3 making, anyway.
4 Q. Right. But if the -- the master discovery
5 down here in Texas requires that you make those
6 available to me anyway, you'd agree with me that you
7 still need to produce them to me, regardless of the
8 current OSHA standard, wouldn't you?
9
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
10 A. Well, subject to legal requirements, yes.
11 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Would it be unduly
12 burdensome to ask you to produce those?
13 A. If we can find them, yes.
14 Q. Sir, how much money do you think
15 R.T. Vanderbilt has -- has spent in its struggle to
16 reclassify tremolite in their talc out of the
17 asbestos OSHA standard?
18 A. More than that's --than is good for us, I
19 can tell you that much. I don't have the exact
20 numbers.
21 Q. Millions?
22 A. A lot of money, yes, over time. Over the
23 years, yes.
24 Q. Have you ever heard any allegations that
25 your Uncle Hugh Vanderbilt had bribed members of
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Congress to ensure R.T. Vanderbilt would get relief
1 A. No.
from the OSHA standard? 3 A. I heard a statement involved with regard
2 Q. Now, it says in your designation --this
f
3 was provided to me by your lawyers -- your - your
\
4 to --with regard to the New York litigation that we
4 witness designation that: Mr. Vanderbilt is
1
5 were discussing where such an allegation was made, 6 yes.
5 knowledgeable about the history, business operation,
|
6 and sales of products made by R.T. Vanderbilt and
f
7 Q. Okay. What did you hear? 8 A. I think the statement was that he had -- 9 he was alleged to have said that he had a senator in 10 his back pocket.
7 may be presented as a witness to testify as to those
l
8 subjects.
|
9
Do you think that's an accurate
!
10 statement?
|
11 Q. Have you ever seen any documents that 12 supported that statement?
11 A. Yes.
I
12 Q. Okay. Do you think that should actually
f
13 A. No. 14 Q. Do you know where that statement came
13 read, "Mr. Vanderbilt is only knowledgeable about
14 sales of products made after 1974 that he can
i
15 from?
16 A. I understand it was a -- an employee at
15 retrieve from a computer database in Norwalk"? 16 A. Well, I guess you should have said '84,
17 the Gouvemeur Company who supposedly said that to 17 from your point view; but - I mean, I never held
18 their attorney. 19 Q. All right. And do you know what --in
18 myself out to be technically competent, but I know
19 what our products are and to what industries we sell
:
2 0 what context that statement was made?
20 them and so on.
21 A. Well, I know it's untruthful; but, I mean,
21
If you mean do I know the chemistry
22 it was as part of this litigation against the
22 and mineralogy of every individual product, no. I
23 company, trying to ride the asbestos bandwagon.
23 don't think I've been held out as such.
24 Q. What's the asbestos bandwagon, if you 25 don't mind me asking?
24 Q. And I don't think I said that when I asked
f
25 the question just a second ago, did I?
f
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A. Well, I'm sure you're familiar with
1 A. Just in answer to your question.
f
2 asbestos litigation; and I'm sure you can understand
2 Q. Well, no, that's not; but what I --
3 that we resent being classed as asbestos and being
3
MR. PICKERING: Objection to
|
4 sued and alleged, you know, to have ignored asbestos
4 side-bar.
5 and that we're in fact killing people.
5 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) --do you -- do you have
1
6 Q. Do you think people that are injured 7 because -- because of asbestos shouldn't able to 8 sue? 9 A. No. I don't - I don't think that they 10 should be able to sue people who don't have 11 asbestos, though.
6 any --any way of testify about products, where they
7 were sold to, prior to the year 1974? You,
1
8 yourself.
|
9 A. You mean did I accompany eveiy barrel and
1
10 bag of product to its intended destination? No.
f
11 But I could look at the sales records and --and --
1
12 Q. Okay. Now, you said just a second ago
12 and determine the annual sales, or whatever.
j
13 that you heard some former employees of Gouvemeur
13 Q. Okay. And when we started this
f
14 had - had stated that Mr. Vanderbilt, Hugh, Jr.,
14 deposition, shortly after we started it, you said
|
15 had --or was it Hugh, Sr.?
15 that you not have any sales records prior to 1974,
16 A. Hugh, Sr. 17 Q. --Hugh, Sr., had a senator in his hip 18 pocket, right? 19 A. Back pocket, whatever. 20 Q. Back pocket. Okay.
16 or did I miss that?
17 A. Well, with the exception of the western
1
18 platy talc, yes.
f
19 Q. Okay. So, if we're talking about
f
2 0 Gouvemeur Talc, can't tell me anything prior to
L
21
Do you know how many former
21 '74, can you?
22 Gouvemeur Talc employees have made that statement? 22 A. No.
23 A. As far as I aware -- I'm aware, it was
23 Q. Are the records - complete records, post
24 made once.
24 '74, for all sales of talc products that you have
;
25 Q. Okay. Do you know what senator it was?
2 5 access to?
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P a g e 2 6 0 $*
A. All sales of company products, yes.
1 apologizing for taste.
f
-
Q. They're totally complete?
2 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) I don't think anybody
f
3 A. Well, I mean, if you mean --yes, they're
3 called you a liar, did they?
f
4 intended to be complete; and they are complete.
4 A. Well, if you're suggesting that I -- that
j
5 Q. Well, they're intended to be complete; but
5 they were somehow destroyed in order to destroy
6 do you have personal knowledge that they are?
6 evidence.
7 A. Can I say -- can I say that there was
7 Q. It wouldn't be the first time.
8 never a mistake made somewhere? No.
8
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
9 Q. Okay.
9 A. Well, it would be for the Vanderbilt
L
10 A. Was there a wrong zero or a zero added or
10 Company.
11 something like that, I haven't the vaguest idea --
11 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Now, these --these re -
i;
12 Q. Okay.
12 these invoices, the invoice index that you have, can
^
13 A. - but they're intended to be complete;
13 you tell me a little bit about that?
[
14 and that's what they're kept for in the ordinary
14 A. The invoices are, technically speaking, on
^
15 course of business.
15 a sales record, they're a record of billing to our
rt
16 Q. And I tried to get an answer earlier, but
16 customers.
~
17 I don't know that I did. Why were the sales
17 Q. Right. And you were kind enough to
t
18 records, prior to 1974, destroyed by R.T. Vanderbilt
18 provide me an exemplar of one of those invoices.
i
19 regarding talc sales?
19 A. Yes.
I
20 A. My understanding is that having sales
20 Q. Now, if I understand everything correctly,
|
21 records back to '74 is a lot better than in most
21 the first year that y'all would have any invoices on
22 cases; so, don't make it sound bad. We just when --
22 talc sales, actual paper invoices, would be the year
!
23 when it came -- when the asbestos litigation came
23 1976, right?
24 out --came out, we recuperated the records; and
24
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
25 that's as far back as we had them available. If
25
MR. McLEOD: What's wrong with that?
Page 259
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we'd had them available back to 1916, we would have
2 kept those.
3 Q. Why were the sales records prior to 1974
4 destroyed?
5 A. As I think I said several times, in the
6 regular course of business.
7 Q. Okay. And what does that mean?
8 A. It meant that, for whatever reason, I
9 wasn't there, that they either needed the space or
10 they didn't want to keep the records, or whatever.
11 They had no use for them, and they got rid of them.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. If you're imputing some sort of evil
14 motivation, well, you know, there's --that's your
15 taste; but there's none there.
16 Q. Did you have a role in the decision to
17 destroy those records?
18 A. No, because, as I say, they go back to
19 '74; and I only joined the company 10 years later.
20 Q. Well, how do I know they weren't destroyed
21 in '84 when you got there?
22
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
23 A. Well, you're asking me; and I'm telling
24 you they weren't. I'm telling you what happened.
25 If you want to tell me I'm a liar, again, there's no
1
MR. PICKERING: I don't think they
2 have paper invoices. I think what I told you,
3 they -- they were microfilmed or microfiched.
4
MR. McLEOD: Okay.
5
MR. PICKERING: I just object
6 to "paper invoice." I don't think that's accurate.
7 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) You can answer the
8 question.
9 A. I lost track of the question. Restate it,
10 please.
11 Q. Did you not understand it?
12 A. Well, I lost track of it.
13 Q. Okay. What's --what's the first year
14 that y'all had the --the invoice records for talc
15 sales?
16 A. 1976.
17 Q. Okay. And --let's see. It has been
18 asserted to me that to --to be forced to produce
19 those actual invoices would be a very burdensome
20 task. Is that true?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Specifically with regard to the --the
23 companies that are --are listed in our discovery
24 responses, that would be unduly burdensome to you?
25 A. Well, as I stated in my affidavit, this is
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not a system --the invoices were originally
1 A. Yes.
{
microfiched; and then when that technology became
2 Q. Can you tell me, sir, are you aware of any
[
3 archaic and the materials became too expensive, we
3 other cases pending in the country or currently or
r
4 switched over to microfilm.
4 in the past where this type of allegation was made
f
5
And -- so, the system, as it
5 that someone had gotten sick from your talc by -- by
r
6 developed from 1976, was not something that you
6 it being part ofjoint compounds that they were
7 could type in the name of the customer or the name
7 exposed to?
;
8 of a particular product. Each invoice is put in a
8 A. Yes.
9 chronological order for every year; so, you would
9 Q. This is the first time?
;
10 have to search, on an annual basis, all of the
10 A. No. You said am I aware of that; and I
11 invoices and pick out the relevant customer numbers.
11 said, yes, I am.
?
12 Q. You have to search pane-by-pane on a piece
12 Q. Okay. There are other ones?
I
13 of microfiche to --to look for a customer number?
13 A. Yes.
14 A. Well, now it's microfilm; but, yes.
14 Q. How many other such cases have there been
15 Q. Okay. For the years that you've
15 over the years?
16 identified having these --having records of sales
16 A. I don't know the exact number.
17 to these companies, how much time do you think that
17 Q. Okay. Can you roughly ballpark it for me?
18 would take y'all to do with?
18 A. No, I don't know the number.
19 A. Well, since I guess only one person could
19 Q. Do you know what brands ofjoint compound
20 really use the microfilm thing at a time, I guess it
2 0 were being alleged exposed these people to your
21 would take quite a while.
21 talc -
22 Q. Okay. Do you know when the discovery
2 2 A. No.
1
23 responses were due in this case originally?
2 3 Q. --in these past cases?
f
24 A. No.
24
Is this the first time you've ever
f
25 Q. Okay. When were you first informed that
2 5 been asked to produce invoices in an asbestos case
[
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you needed to turn over those actual invoices in 2 this case? 3 A. I don't think I was. 4 Q. Well, at some point apparently there was 5 an inquiry made into it. When did you first get 6 that inquiry? 7 A. Not until recently. 8 Q. Okay. How recently? 9 A. I don't know. A month ago, something like 10 that. 11 Q. Okay. Could it have been just a few weeks 12 ago? 13 A. Huh? 14 Q. A couple weeks ago? 15 A. Something like that, maybe. Yeah. 16 Q. Okay. And this case is supposed to be set 17 for trial in May, Is that your understanding? 18 A. Is it? 19 Q. I don't know. I'm asking you. 20 A. I don't know when this case is. 21 Q. Okay. And you will be at trial, if asked, 22 in this case when it's tried down in Galveston? 23 A. If I'm a witness, yes. 24 Q. Well, you're listed as a witness. If they 25 ask you to come, are you going to come?
1 like this?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you ever think it might be a good idea
4 to start assembling these --these type of invoices
5 in a -- in a readily available format for future
1
6 cases?
i
7 A. No.
8 Q. Why is that?
9 A. Well, the invoices, as I said, are not
10 specifically sales records. All they do is
11 duplicate the information that's already available
12 in the other two sets of records. After all,
13 they're not sales records. They merely evidence the
14 billing to customers.
15 Q. And you can't see how that would be
|
16 relevant in the litigation to somebody like me?
1
17
MR. PICKERING: Objection, form.
|
18 A. Actually, probably not. No.
|
19 Q. (By Mr. McLeod) Okay.
20
MR. McLEOD: Well, at this time I'm
|
21 just going to put on the record that I object to the
22 witness not complying with the subpoena duces tecum {
23 in any manner, shape, or form and reserve the right
24 to take his deposition again at a later date after
25 obtaining a ruling on the objection made to the
=
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subpoena duces tecum.
z
For right now, I don't have any more
3 questions.
4
MR. PICKERING: Does anybody else
5 have anything before I respond on the record?
6
I'll respond that he's here. He's
7 been presented to answer questions. I don't believe
8 he's refused to answer any questions relevant to
9 anything. We -- we'll --I'll state for the record,
10 we will not agree to produce him again to testify.
11
And as far as the category he has not
12 responded in any form to the subpoena duces tecum,
13 his answer is attached to the record. I'll let it
14 speak for itself.
15
It wasn't timely. You haven't sought
1 6 relief from the Court to serve additional discovery
17 on -- on this defendant. I think we're within our
18 rights to object, as we have done.
19
MR. McLEOD: Okay. However, you --
2 0 you do realize, I wasn't given sufficient time to
2 1 notice the deposition in time to get a subpoena
2 2 duces tecum out, correct?
23
MR. PICKERING: And I've been talking
24 to you for a month about this dep -- this
25 deposition.
1 six specific grades of talc with the asbestos label.
f
2 Q. And that included Fibertal 1 and 2,
3 Mouldene, and at least one or two others that you
f
4 weren't able to recall?
5 A. Yes, 6N Fiber, or something like that, on
6 another product, yes.
7 Q. And according to my notes, this went on
8 for about three to four years before, I guess, other
9 samples were looked at and - and a decision was
10 made to --to remove that?
11 A. Well, actually, the sales of those
12 products dried up, as can be understandable --
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. -- and the - but the -- the technical
15 issue continued; and it was discovered that, in
16 fact, what we were dealing with was not asbestos,
17 not asbestos fibers but tell that fibers.
;
18 Q. Let me ask you: During that same period
19 of time that those particular products were
t
20 voluntarily stamped, were MSDS sheets provided with
21 the sales of those products?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And were those MSDS sheets altered or
24 edited to reflect now that - the warning of
25 asbestos?
:
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MR. McLEOD: Is that a fair
2 statement?
3
MR. PICKERING: No, I don't think it
4 is a fair statement.
5
MR. McLEOD: Okay. And -- and if
6 Mr. Vanderbilt would have brought some --at least
7 attempted to bring some of the documents requested
8 pursuant to the subpoena dues tecum, I may very well
9 have other questions for him about those documents;
10 and if we need to bring it in front of the Judge,
11 then we can do that. I just want to put it on the
12 record.
13
MR. PICKERING: Understood.
14
MR. McLEOD: That's it.
15
EXAMINATION
16 BY MR. WAGNER:
17 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Vanderbilt. My name
18 is Fred Wagner. I represent one of the defendants
19 in this case. I just have a couple of questions for
20 you. I appreciate your patience.
21
You've testified earlier that
22 starting in about '74 to '75 is when R.T. Vanderbilt
23 voluntarily stamped their product regarding
24 asbestos; is that correct? Is that correct?
2 5 A. Not exactly. We stamped four or five or
1 A. Well, I presume that the Material Safety 2 Data Sheets relating to those particular grades 3 would have included the asbestos caution, as 4 required by the asbestos standard. 5 Q. Would -- was it typical practice, if you 6 know, at that time for R.T. Vanderbilt to send out 7 an MSDS with every shipment of product that it 8 sent --sent to a customer? 9 A. I don't know whether it was the policy 10 back then. That was before the Hazard Communication 11 standard. 12 Q. Okay. When is your understanding that the 13 Hazards Communication standard took effect? 14 A. Somewhere in the mid '80s. 15 Q. Okay. But was R.T. Vanderbilt generating 16 a form of MSDS back in 1974 or '75? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Okay. So, am I correct in assuming that 19 that -- whatever was being generated in '74 or '75 20 would have gone out with the product to the end 21 customer? 22 A. I don't know that. 23 Q. Okay. But needless to say, the - the 24 actual packages of the product, these particular 2 5 products you've mentioned, would have gone out with
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the stamp regarding the asbestos warning?
A. Well, there would have been a label on the
3 bag, yes, a preprinted label.
4 Q. And to the extent that the joint compound
5 manufacturers that you've identified or that your
6 company has identified in its discovery responses
7 purchased any of those particular products during
8 that time period, they would, in fact, be receiving
9 bags or packages of talc that would have had an
10 asbestos warning on it; is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12
MR. McLEOD: Objection to form.
13 Q. (By Mr. Wagner) So, is it safe to assume
14 that if there was any question about asbestos
15 products or asbestos being placed in any of these
16 joint compound pro --products by these
17 manufacturers, that they would have been aware that
18 the talc they were buying at least had a warning on
19 it saying it may contain asbestos?
2 0 A. If it's one o f those grades, yes.
21 Q. Do you know offhand, during this time
2 2 period, whether or not RTV had a research and
2 3 development department in operation at that time?
2 4 A. Yes.
2 5 Q. Okay. To your knowledge, did the people
Page 271
in R.T. Vanderbilt's research and development 2 department ever actively work with any of these 3 manufacturers that have been identified regarding 4 specific formulations of their products? 5 A. I don't know that. To my knowledge, no. 6 Q. Is there a particular person at --at 7 R.T. Vanderbilt that might know that? 8 A. Well, from my knowledge of the divisions 9 that we had in the R&D department, I don't see 10 who --who would have done it. You'd have to talk 11 to the sales manager because essentially the R&D 12 department, as I said, was to basically back up the 13 product for the customers and answer customer 14 problems and so on. And they might well have done 15 that through the sales manager. 1 6 Q. Is there any particular point in time that 17 you know of any of these manufacturers coming to 18 R.T. Vanderbilt and --and asking about alternative 19 forms of talc that would not contain any asbestos? 2 0 A. I don't recall any such questions, no. 21 Q. Okay. And just to be --just to confirm: 22 Any operations of R.T. Vanderbilt prior to your 23 arrival in 1984, any knowledge you have is obtained 24 either through a document or discussing it with an 25 employee, it's not based on personal knowledge; is
Page 272
1 that right? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. Okay.
4
MR. WAGNER: I don't think I have any
5 other questions for you. Thank you very much, sir.
6
MR. PICKERING: Reserve our
7 questions until the time of trial.
8
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're off the
9 record at 3:08. This is the end of the deposition.
10 The end of Tape 4.
11
(Proceedings Adjourned.)
12
* * *
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1
CHANGES AND SIGNATURE
2 PAGE LINE
CHANGE
REASON
3 ____________________________________________
4 ____________________________________________
5 ____________________________________________
6 ___________________________________
7 _______________________________________ 8 ___________________________________
9
10
11
12
1 3 ____________________________________________
1 4 ____________________________________________
1 5 ____________________________________________
1 6 ____________________________________________
17 _______________________________________
1 8 ____________________________________________
1 9 ____________________________________________
2 0 ____________________________________________
21
22
2 3 ____________________________________________
24
25
I, PAUL VANDERBILT, have read the
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foregoing deposition and hereby affix my signature
1 attorney for the witness for examination, signature,
that same is true and correct, except as noted
2 and returned to me b y____________ ;
3 above.
3
That the amount of time used by each
4
4 party at the deposition is as follows:
5
5
MS. MATT McLEOD - 4 Hours,
6
PAUL VANDERBILT
6 29 Minutes;
7
7
MR. FREDERICK J. WAGNER - 5 Minutes;
8 THE STATE OF
8
That pursuant to information given to
9 COUNTY OF__ 10 Before me,_
)
9 the deposition officer at the time said testimony
on this day
10 was taken, the following includes all parties of
11 personally appeared PAUL VANDERBILT, known to me (or 11 record:
12 proved to me under oath or through______________ )
12
Mr. Matt McLeod and Mr. Ross Stomel,
13 (description of identity card or other document)) to
13 Attorneys for Plaintiff;
14 be the person whose name is subscribed to the
14
Mr. P. Wayne Pickering and Mr. Peter
15 foregoing instrument and acknowledged to me that
15 R. York, Attorneys for Defendant R.T. Vanderbilt;
16 they executed the same for the purposes and
16
Mr. Frederick J. Wagner, Attorney for
17 consideration therein expressed.
17 Defendant TH Agriculture & Nutrition;
18 Given under my hand and seal of office this
18
Mr. William H. Farrell, Attorney for
19 _____ day of________ , _______.
19 Defendant Guard-Line, Inc.;
20
20
Ms. Monika Barahona, Attorney for
21
21 Defendant Bechtel;
22
22
Ms. Heather A. Berner, Attorney for
23
2 3 Defendant Daimler Chrysler;
24
NOTARY PUBLIC IN AND
2 4
Mr. Mark C. James, Attorney for
25
FOR THE STATE OF TEXAS
2 5 Defendants Fluor Daniels, W.S. Bellows and Trinity;.
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C ause No. 2005-35201-A
V IC TO R G R U ETZN ER , ) IN T H E D IST R IC T C O U R T O F
P laintiff
)
)
4 VS.
) H A R R IS C O U N TY , TEX A S
5 ) A B C O I N D U S T R IE S , I N C . )
6 ET AL.
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7
8
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9
V IC TO R G R U ETZN ER , ) IN T H E D ISTR IC T C O U R T OF
10
P laintiff
)
11 V S .
)
) GALVESTON COUNTY, TEXAS
) 12 A B C O IN D U S T R I E S , I N C . )
ET AL.
) 212th JU D IC IA L D IST R IC T
13
14
R E P O R T E R 'S C E R T IF IC A T IO N
O R A L /V ID E O T A P E D D E P O S IT IO N O F P A U L V A N D E R B IL T
15
A PR IL 5 ,2 0 0 6
16
17
I, Jill P h illip s, C ertified S h o rth an d
1 8 R eporter in and fo r th e S tate o f T exas, hereby
1 9 certify to th e follow ing:
20
T h at the w itness, PA U L V A N D E R B IL T ,
21 w a s d u ly s w o r n b y t h e o f f ic e r a n d t h a t th e
22 t r a n s c r i p t o f th e o ra l d e p o s it io n is a t r u e r e c o r d
2 3 o f th e testim ony given by the w itness;
24
T h at the deposition transcript w as
2 5 subm itted on
to th e w itness o r to the
1
Mr. T. Lynn Walden, Attorney for
2 Defendants Bondex International, Inc. and RPM, Inc.;
3
Mr. Jerry Kacal, Attorney for
4 Defendant Coen Company;
5
I further certify that I am neither
6 counsel for, related to, nor employed by any o f the
7 parties in the action in which this proceeding was
8 taken, and further that I am not financially or
9 otherwise interested in the outcome o f the action.
10
Further certification requirements
11 pursuant to R ules 203 o f T R C P will be certified to
12 after they have occurred.
13
Certified to by me this 25th day of
14 April, 2006.
15
16
Jill Phillips, Texas CSR 5966
17
Expiration Date 12/31/07
Firm Registration 484
18
1001 W est Loop South, Suite 809
Houston, Texas 77027
19
(713) 481-2180
20 21 22
23
24 25
70 (Pages 274 to 277)
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Page 278 FURTHER CERTIFICATION UN DER RULE 203 TRCP
3
The original deposition was/was not
4 returned to the deposition officer o n __________ ;
5
If returned, the attached Changes and
6 Signature page contains any changes and the reasons
7 therefor;
8
If returned, the original deposition was
9 delivered t o ________________, Custodial A ttorney;
10
That $ ____________ is the deposition
11 officer's charges to Plaintiff for preparing the
12 original deposition transcript and any copies o f
1 3 exhibits;
14
That the deposition w as delivered in
1 5 accordance with Rule 203.3, and that a copy o f this
1 6 certificate was served on all parties shown herein
1 7 o n ____________ and filed w ith the Clerk.
18
Certified to by me th is ________ day o f
19
2 0 _____________ ,2006.
21
2 2
__________________________
Jill Phillips, Texas CSR 5966
2 3
Expiration Date: 12/31/07
Firm Registration 484
2 4
1001 W est Loop South, Suite 809
Houston, Texas 77027
2 5 __________(713) 481-2180______________________________________
I
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