Document G5550y4JOJ0RE6ZkX45Dr970m

1 2 3 '4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 Ir- 13 14 15 16 17 16 19 20 21 22 23 24 . 25 I Minarik 19 3 MR. TAYLOR: I object to that. MS. BERHOTT: I object too. MR. TAYLOR: It's already been testified. SPECIAL* MASTER SCHREIBER:. Read the question back, Ms. Reporter. (The questio.n is read by the reporter.) MS. BERKOTT: Your Honor, may I clarify my objection. I don't think It's appropriate questioning for the witness for Mr. Rivkin to repeat the question 5 times, because the last 4 times he did not get an answer he is happy with. .SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER: The question Is objected to as to form. It will be rephrased. The lawyer has the right to ask the witness questions even on the subject that's been covered, if the answers are not entirely clear or if the witness is unable to give a complete answer for whatever the reasons be. All right. Q. Sir, is it a fact that commercial grade -- the commercial formulation of 2,4,5-T, as you knew it, was different from the formulation of 2,4,5-T as used in Agent Orange? MR. TAYLOR: I object. MR. TAYLOR: . That was not a re formulation of the objection. w gga and spinelli certified shorthand reocrters MI narik 194 1 SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER: The objection 2 is overruled. The witness will answer It if he can? 3 A. When you say the commercial formulation, do you 4 mean the patented trademark name Item put on the 5 shelf by the various manufacturers? 6 Q. I'll accept that as your understanding, if 7 that's what you understand, sir. 8 A. Yes, it different from the Agent Orange 9 formulation. 10 Q. Could you tell me how, sir- 11 A. Agent Orange had no diluents. It was composed 12 of appr oximately 50 percent 2,4-D butyl ester and 13 2,4,5-T butyl ester, commercial formulations had 14 diluents and surfactants, and whatever else. 15 MR. SILBERMAN: Excuse me, what is that 16 one word you keep using? I didn't get it. 17 MR. DEAN: Diluents 18 SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER: A diluent Is a 19 dilution to the formula? 20 A. Yes. 21 SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER: I was waiting, 22 after a day and a half, to see if somebody would 23 ask what the witness meant by diluent? 24 MR. RIVKIN: Did we get an answer? 25 Q. What do you mean by diluent. w qga and spinelli certified shorthand reDorters M inar1k 195 1 SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER: All right. 2 You may answer it again, doctor, if you can. 3 MR. RIVKIN: I Bm sorry, sir?* 4 A. Diluent is generally an inert material that's 5 added to the active Ingredient. 6 Q. Do you know ---- 7 SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER: For what 8 purposes? Why is it added? 9 SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER:. I mean -- 10 MR. RIVKIN: Stay with it. That's 11 beautiful 12 SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER: I mean what 13 purpose is there to putting it into something? Why 14 would someone use a diluent? Does it have something 15 to do to lessen its powerful effect or something 16 like that. 17 A. Well, generally the material is used diluted, 18 the individual who is going to spray it on his fence 19 row or his mesquite or something like that dilutes 20 it with something or.other, either water or diesel 21 fuel and so on. The active ingredient may not be 22 compatible with the solvent or the diluent, and 23 therefore some emulsifiers or a surfactant, which' 2:4 would get. it to spread out on the leaves in a better, 25 fashion is added, and the purpose of the diluent,, in w aga and spinelli SS certified shorthand reporters Mina rik 196 addition to these other inert materials. Q. Was an additional purpose of the diluent to make the product less potent? MR. TAYLOR: Objection. SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER: Objection overruled. The witness may answer it? A. It can't make it less potent* All it means is C you have got fewer grams or pounds of the active material per gallon. The potency is the same. In other words, a pound of 2,4-D, whether it's diluted or undiluted is going to kill the same number of trees and so o n 13 SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER; Why weren't, 14 in your judgment, why did you not recommend 15 dilutants in Agent Orange? 16 A. Logistical factors, military logistical factors. 17 You wouldn't want to, the military did not want to 18 carry around a lot of inert material. ( 19 Q. Did you recommend its addition, the 20 addition of inert material in the field? 21 MR. DEANt Judge, here's my objection* 22 We went over this material yesterday. This matter 23 was covered yesterday, I represent to your Honor, 24 and we were all here. 25 SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER: Mr. Dean if it w qga and spinelli certified shorthand r^onrtor^ M in arik 198 1 answered, and in my judgment if it will not clarify 2 an issue or will not extend the probative approach 3 of the questioning, then it will be sustained. 4 HR. RIVKIN: Okay. Thank you, sir. 5 Q. I think there is an open question. If 6 you would like it repeated. 7 SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER: No, I think 8 maybe if you. 9 Q. I'll be glad to repeat it again. Could 10 you tell me, sir, whether you recommended the 11 addition of dilutants in the field? 12 A. Yes, I did. After the first testis in Vietnam, 13 the evaluation showed that there was insufficient 14 volume to cover the area, and we, the evaluation 15 team at that time recommended that the one gallon of 16 then Purple be diluted with two gallons of diesel 17 fuel oil in order to give the larger volume for more 18 effective coverage. 19 Q. Were you part of that evaluation team, 20 sir? 21 A. Yes I was, 22 Q. What year are we talking about 23 approximately? 24 A. 62. 25 Q. Could you tell me with regards to Orange, waaa and SDinelli r^ rtifio rl ch n rth n n H rorw*r+are Minar ik 199 1 sir# did you recommend a dilutant in the field? 2 A* No, I did not. 3 Q. . Was there a -- I'm sorry. 4 A. It had already been established by Air Force 5 and others that there should be two -- I mean no 6 ; diluents, that they should spray as straight C 7 material. 8 Q. Did you agree with that? 9 A. So when the transfer from Purple to Orange went 10 on, that wasn't a subject for discussion. 11 Q. Did you say that the recommendation was 12 : 13 that there were no diluents to be added in the field? A.' That's --- 14 Q. I just didn't hear you. I am not 15 questioning that's what you said. Is that what he 16 ; 17 said? Okay? A. Now they never well, the people in the field 18 sprayed what was sent to them. There was never any 19 thought that they would do anything with it after 20 they had it in the field or whether they should 21 dilute it--er concentrate it or do anything else with 22 it. They sprayed what was given to them. 23 Q. Were you consulted with regards to 24 whether Agent Orange should -- a dilutant should be 25 added to Agent Orange before being utilized in WGQG and spinelll certified shorthand reoorters