Document G54KRzy7jL0dy73RLeBKnkbkr

cor-':cr.k *t l. iLrvUt IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES TRANSWESTERN PIPELINE COMPANY, PLAINTIFF, VS. MONSANTO COMPANY AND DOES 1-200, INCLUSIVE, DEFENDANT. ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) NO. B C026959 DEPOSITION OF ROGER E. HATTON, PH.D. JANUARY 21, 1992 VOLUME I GORE REP OR TING COMPANY 100 NORTH BROADWAY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 63102 241-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000027996 IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA COUNTY OF LOS. ANGELES TRANSWESTERN PIPELINE COMPANY, ) PLAINTIFF, ) ) ) VS. MONSANTO COMPANY AND ) ) DOES 1-200 , INCLUSIVE, ) DEFENDANT. ) ) ) NO. B C026959 Deposition of Roger E. Hatton, taken on behalf of the Plaintiff, at the law offices of Bryan, Cave, McPheeters and McRoberts, 500 North Broadway, in the City of St. Louis, State of Missouri, on the 21st day of January, 1992 before Sandra L. Ragsdale, Registered Professional Reporter and Notary Public. WATER PCB-SD0000027997 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: FOR THE PLAINTIFF Ms. Dana K. Welch Shearman & Sterling 555 California Street San Francisco, California f MS . Christie A . Patrick Enron Interstate Pipeline Company 1400 Smith Street P.0. Box 1188 Houston, Texas 77251 FOR THE DEFENDANT Mr. Donald F. Zimmer, Jr. Bronson, Bronson & McKinnon 505 Montgomery Street San Francisco, California 94111 WATER PCB-SD0000027998 ..V INDEX TO TESTIMONY Examination by Ms. Welch Page 6 INDEX TO EXHIBITS 1 P. 10 2 P. 43 3 P. 48 4 P. 53 5 P. 56 6 P. 62 7 P. 64 8 P. 68 9 P. 69 10 P. 71 11 P. 79 12 P. 83 13 P. 86 14 P. 90 15 P. 92 16 P. 96 17 P. 97 18 P. 98 19 P. 102 20 P. 105 21 P. 108 22 P. 113 23 P. 116 24 P. 118 25 P. 120 26 P. 133 27 P. 138 28 P. 140 29 P. 143 30 P. 146 31 P. 150 32 P. 152 Subpoena Letter, 12-26-56, Davis to Wheeler Memo, 4-19-66 Letter, 2-20-81, Riall to Colvin Letter, 11-7-61, Hatton to Woods Letter, 11-17-61, Hatton to Fletcher Texas Eastern memo, 8-21-58, Edmondson to Worley Sales summary, 1969-1971 Letter, 8-22-68, Smith to Stephens Reappraisals Fire-Resistant Turbine Lubricants, 6-25-64 Memo, 2-12-54, Kelly to Newman Letter, 9-20-55, Kelly to Barrett 10-23-59 letter by Wheeler 6-6-60 memo re product questionnaires Memo, 9-30-63, Wheeler to Nemits Memo, 5-27-64, Wheeler to Nemits Memo, 9-10-65, Early to Davis Statement from Monsanto Co., 10-17-69 Functional Fluids report, 6-69 U.S. Department of the Interior letter to Monsanto, 1-16-68 Letter, 3-6-69, Richard to Wheeler Letter, 3-7-69, Wheeler to Kelly Reported Aroclor customer incidents Memo, 9-9-69, Richard to Wheeler Report of Aroclor ad hoc committee, 10-2-69 PCB Environmental Pollution Abatement Plan Memo, 11-6-69, Munch to Richard Organic Division report Schedule for Discontinuing Aroclor Applications handwritten "The PCB Issue" Management Plan, PCB Environmental Problem "What Could We Expect From This WATER PCB-SD0000027999 33 P. 157 34 P. 161 35 P. 162 Program?" Memo, 5-15-70 , Ehlers to Minckler, et al Draft Letter to U.K. Aroclor Customers Memo, 2-19-70 , Garrett to Papageorge WATER PCB-SD0000028000 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 6 1 2 3 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED by 4 and between counsel for the parties that this 5 deposition may be taken in shorthand by Sandra L. 6 Ragsdale, a Registered Professional Reporter and 7 Notary Public within and for the State of Missouri, 8 and afterwards transcribed into typewriting. 9 ROGER E. HATTON, 10 of lawful age, being duly sworn, testified as 11 follows: 12 EXAMINATION 13 QUESTIONS BY MS. WELCH: 14 Q. Good morning, Dr. Hatton. Could you 15 please state your name for the record? 16 A. Roger E. Hatton, and I do use the middle 17 initial. . 18 Q. And could you please state your present 19 address for the record? 20 A. 406 Claybrook Lane, Kirkwood, Missouri. 21 63122. 22 Q. And your phone number please? 23 A. Area code 314 822-0215 24 Q. Dr. Hatton, my name is Dana Welch and 25 I'm from the law firm of Shearman & Sterling. I WATER PCB-SD0000028001 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 7 1 represent plaintiff in this action, Transwestern 2 Pipeline Company, and I have with me here this 3 morning Christie Patrick who is in-house counsel for 4 Transwestern Pipeline Company as well. Are you 5 represented by counsel here this morning? 6 A. Yes, Fritz Zimmer. 7 Q. Dr. Hatton, have you been deposed 8 before? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Probably what I'm going to tell you you 11 know by rote but let me just go through some of the 12 rules and guidelines for depositions. First of al 1, 13 as you know you're under oath so that means as you 14 know that you're to tell the truth just as if you 15 were at trial even though the setting is very 16 informal. I'm not going to purposely obfuscate any 17 questions or try to be unclear but if any question I 18 ask you is unclear please ask me to rephrase it again 19 and I will attempt to be more clear. Any time you 20 need a break please tell us, we're flexible, we'll 21 take a lunch break. Please to help the court 22 reporter we need audible responses, yes's and no's. 23 I'm sure you're familiar with that? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. After the deposition is finished there WATER PCB-SD0000028002 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 8 1 will be a transcript produced, you will have a chance 2 to review the transcript and make any changes that 3 you deem necessary. However, I should tell you that 4 if there are any changes made we may ask you about 5 those changes at the time of trial or we may attempt 6 to show that there are inconsistencies. 7 Q. Dr. Hatton, have you seen and signed a 8 confidentiality stipulation in this case? 9 A. Yes, I have. 10 Q. Before you said that you have been 11 deposed before. Do you recall any of the names of 12 those 1itigations? 13 A. Yes, the most recent or the one that I 14 remember the most has to do with a Texas Eastern 15 litigation and I can't give you the names of al1 the 16 lawyers and the insurance companies that were 17 involved but I was deposed through Monsanto. 18 Q. And do you recall approximately what was 19 the time period of that deposition? 20 A. About two years ago. 21 Q. And if you can recall the next most 22 recent deposition? 23 A. I think back almost the time that I was 24 still working for the company. 25 Q. And when was that? WATER PCB-SD0000028003 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 9 1 A. I retired in November of '82. 2 Q. So the next most recent was in November 3 1982. And did that litigation have anything to do 4 with PCB's? 5 A. No, it did not. 6 Q. What did that litigation have to do 7 with? 8 A. It was with regard to heat transfer 9 fluids which Monsanto also produced. 10 Q. What about heat transfer fluids? 11 A. This involved an accident. 12 Q. And were any of the allegations in that 13 1 itiga tion that there was any damage due to the 14 composition of the heat transfer fluids? 15 A. No, the damage was fire. 16 Q. Let's try and narrow it to depositions 17 that had to do with allegations of PCB damage. Have 18 you ever been deposed besides the Texas Eastern 19 deposition in litigation that had to do with 20 allegations of PCB damage? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Never before? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Do you have copies of the transcripts of 25 any of those depositions? WATER PCB-SD0000028004 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 10 1 A. No. 2 MR. ZIMMER: You mean of the non-PCB 3 ones? 4 Q. Any of the depositions that you've been 5 deposed on. 6 A. Yes, I do have one for another company 7 that I am working with in Atlanta. The case has not 8 yet been settled and I will maintain the depositions 9 in my files until it is and then I'll throw them 10 away. 11 Q. And does that case have anything to do 12 with PCB's? 13 A. This is strictly a heat transfer case 14 and primarily involves the function of equipment. 15 Q. Were you deposed in that litigation as a 16 former employee of Monsanto or as a consultant? 17 A. No, as a private consultant. 18 Q. I'd like to introduce as Exhibit 1 a 19 Subpoena Duces Tecum for Dr. Hatton. Exhibit lisa 20 subpoena for Dr. Hatton's deposition with about a 21 twelve-page document request. Dr. Hatton, have you 22 seen this document before? 23 A. Yes, I have. 24 Q. And how long ago did you see this 25 document? WATER PCB-SD0000028005 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 11 1 A. It's been a matter of weeks. I don't 2 remember exactly when I obtained it. 3 Q. Dr. Hatton, did you bring any documents 4 with you pursuant to the subpoena? 5 A. No, I did not. 6 Q. Do you have any documents in your 7 possession that related to any of these responses? 8 A. No, I do not. Any documents that were 9 or are in my possession are the same as in the 10 attachments to the Texas Eastern deposition. 11 MR. ZIMMER: Let me make that clear for 12 the record because he does have a set of the exhibits 13 to his Texas Eastern litigation deposition. But we 14 told him they'd be produced here and so we didn't 15 have him lug those along. 16 Q. Do you have any other documents besides 17 those exhibits to that deposition? 18 A. No, I do not. 19 Q. Dr. Hatton, prior to thisdeposition did 20 you meet with counsel in preparation for the 21 deposition? . 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Did you reviewdocuments in preparation 24 for the deposition? 2 5 A. Yes. WATER PCB-SD0000028006 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 12 1 Q. I don't want to inquire into any 2 attorney-client privileged areas and I'm not going to 3 ask you about the substance of that. I just want to 4 know if you did. 5 MR. ZIMMER: Yes, we showed him some 6 documents but whatever we showed him I'm going to 7 instruct him not to respond to. 8 Q. Were you shown documents other than the 9 following categories of documents: Texas Eastern 10 documents, Transwestern documents or Monsanto 11 documents, were you shown documents other than from 12 those three companies? 13 MR. ZIMMER: I'll object that it 14 violates the privilege but it's not important because 15 no, he wasn't. So you can answer. 16 A. I was mentally going through them and 17 no, there weren't any. 18 Q. Did you talk to anyone else besides Mr. 19 Zimmer before this deposition about this deposition? 20 MR. ZIMMER: She means other than other 21 counsel. 22 A. I had other counsel I talked to, yes. 23 Q. Other counsel from Monsanto? 24 A. Yes, supplied by Monsanto. 25 Q. Anybody else besides Monsanto counsel? WATER PCB-SD0000028007 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 1 A. No. 2 Q. Dr. Hatton, if you could I'd like to 3 talk to you about your educational background. If 4 you could start with your undergraduate education up 5 through any graduate or post-graduate degrees. 6 A. I have trouble with dates so I'm going 7 to lay a piece of paper out here to be sure I get the 8 right dates if I may. AB from the University of 9 Omaha in 1940. I attended there from 1936 to 1940. 10 It's now known as the University of Omaha or 11 University of Nebraska Omaha branch or some such 12 thing, they've changed the name on it but my degree 13 came from the University of Omaha at the time. And I 14 went directly from there to Purdue University to the 15 graduate program and I obtained a Master of Science 16 in 1942 and a Ph.D. in organic chemistry in 1944. 17 Q. Any post-graduate degrees? 18 A. I have no post-graduate degrees but I 19 did work for Purdue Research Foundation for two 20 years. The work was primarily connected with the 21 Manhattan District and chemistry matters relating to 22 that project. Which takes us to '46, two years right 23 after my Ph.D. 24 Q. And where did you go to work in 1946? 25 A. Monsanto Company. WATER PCB-SD0000028008 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 Q. In St. Louis? 2 A. Yes. Monsanto Chemical Company, excuse 3 me. 4 Q. And what was the first position you had 5 in 1946? 6 A. I joined the research department and was 7 a research chemist. 8 Q. Were you working on any particular kinds 9 of products or chemicals? 10 A. I started out working in the general 11 materials that Monsanto was interested in, that 12 ranged from drugs to organic chemicals of various 13 types, and then got over into the area of looking at 14 liquids and plasticizers and joined the -- what we 15 called the functional fluids activity. 16 Q. Let's back up. What is a plasticizer? 17 A. Plasticizer is a material that you mix 18 with a resin to make a commercial plastic. For 19 example, a shower curtain contains a fair amount of 20 plasticizer to make it pliable, so that otherwise if 21 you had the plastic sheet up there it would be solid 22 and wouldn't conform to the shape. So these were 23 materials that Monsanto was making at the time. I 24 did process work on them. I also looked for some new 25 ones. WATER PCB-SD0000028009 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 J Q. And what's the function -- what was the 2 functional fluids group? 3 A. Functional fluids group, we defined a 4 functional fluid as a fluid without which a machine 5 cannot function. This sounds like gobbledygook. 6 Q. Doubletalk, circular? 7 A. More or less, but it really was when you 8 think about it a bit, it was a very useful term to do 9 research under because it was a broad umbrella. But 10 you couldn't run your engine in your car if you 11 didn't have a lubricant in it, therefore that 12 lubricant is a functional fluid, your engine won't 13 run without the lubricant. You can't have a 14 hydraulic system unless you have a hydraulic fluid or 15 a hydraulic gas it could be, but something in the 16 system to make it work. So that was a general 17 definition that we used to cover -- to allow us to do 18 a wide range of chemical types. It did not limit us 19 to say something like a phosphate ester or whatever, 20 we were able to expand it then. It also allowed us 21 to look at many different fields where these products 22 might be used instead of limiting to something -- 23 when I said plasticizers we're talking about 24 something very narrow, when we're talking about this 25 we've got the world to work in. WATER PCB-SD0000028010 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 1 Q. Were gas compressor fluids considered 2 part of the functional fluids group? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And did you begin working on gas 5 compressor fluids in about 1946? 6 A. No, not that early. The first work we 7 did was related to aircraft hydraulic fluids and from 8 that somewhere in the ear ly fif ties we became more 9 interested in industrial applications and had 10 event ally -- I cannot give you an exact date that we 11 started but we became interested in turbine 12 lubricants, gas compressor lubricants, this type of 13 thing . 14 Q. So 1946 unti1 when were you a research 15 chemist? 16 A. I stayed as a research chemist from -- 17 un ti 1 19 52 . . 18 Q. Who did you report to during this time 19 as your boss? 20 A. Started working for Mike Devornikoff. 21 Q. Could you spell that for the record 22 please? 23 A. No. D-e-v-o-r-n-i-k-o-f-f I think but 24 don't hold me to that because I am not sure of how 25 Mike spelled his name. i WATER PCB-SD0000028011 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 1 Q. I don't mean to be depressing for the 2 record but to the extent that you know whether any of 3 these people are still alive could you state that? 4 A. No, he passed away a number of years 5 ago, in fact before I left research I think. 6 Q. Is there anyone else who -- 7 A. And then I worked for H. R. Gamrath, 8 G-a-m-r-a-t-h. 9 Q. Do you know if he's still alive? 10 A. Last I'd heard he was but I do not know 11 where. 12 Q. And do you recal1 any individuals that 13 you worked with or who reported to you during that 14 period? 15 A. You asked when I was a research chemist? 16 Q. Yes. 17 A. As a research chemist you would not have 18 anybody reporting to you. 19 Q. You were the bottom of the bottom? 20 A. Yes, I started there.Our research 21 organization was very thin. We had a research 22 director and maybe he had an assistant and maybe he 23 didn't. And then a group leader and then a research 24 chemist. So we had three levels. We had some 25 research chemists that had twenty years of WATER PCB-SD0000028012 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 1 experience. So we didn't go for titles. I don't 2 know how else to say it but that's what it amounted 3 to. 4 Q. And you left the position of research 5 chemist in 1952? 6 A. Yes, and from then in 1960 I was 7 group -- held the group leader position. 8 Q. What was the group leader? 9 A. That meant that I had a group of 10 research chemists and maybe a technician or two who 11 worked at my direction or worked with me depending on 12 the amount of experience they had. But I was the one 13 who was charged with keeping the records straight and 14 seeing that work was done and actually guided many of 15 the projects. 16 Q. Were you at this time primarily working 17 in functional fluids or were you working -- 18 A. I still had -- when I became group 19 leader I inherited a few plasticizer projects too but 20 it was mostly in functional fluids. 21 Q. And who did you report to during this 22 period? 23 A. We had a series of research directors. 24 This is very difficult because -- let's see, I know 25 Throdahl was there for a while. I know I worked for WATER PCB-SD0000028013 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 1 Patrick for a while. That level was -- is the level 2 that did most of the reporting to management and it 3 was a fluid level in that people came in and out of 4 the research director level rather frequently. 5 Q. In other words, you reported to the 6 research director who then reported to management? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Did you have any direct or dotted line 9 relationship with management at this point? 10 MR. ZIMMER: This point being '52 to 11 ' 60? 12 Q. That's correct. 13 A. In those days even the top management of 14 the company was within walking distance of the 15 research labs and the fellows who were running the 16 company at that time 1iked research and they'd walk 17 over and we'd talk to them directly, report to them 18 directly and very informally. 19 Q. So it was a fairly informal, small 20 atmosphere at Monsanto during this period? 21 A. That's what I was trying to determine, 22 it was a group of people who got along very well and 23 who were, if I can say so, quite creative but they 24 were not bound in by a huge superstructure of 25 management. So it probably -- I shouldn't add this WATER PCB-SD0000028014 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 20 1 but I will -- it was probably one of the most 2 pleasant types of organization that I ever worked for 3 anywhere because it was so free and open. 4 Q. Okay. And do you recall any names of 5 the management that you had contact with, either on 6 an informal or formal basis? 7 MR. ZIMMER: Again between '52 and '60? 8 Q. Yes. Until we change the time period 9 we're talking about '52 to '60. 10 A. Now I'm really -- I know that Charles 11 Allen Thomas used to wander in now and then. A 12 fellow who worked for him as a V. P. I just don't 13 have a lot of names that I can -- I haven't thought 14 about -- remember, I haven't thought about these for 15 thirty years in this connection. 16 Q. I understand. Maybe when we get to 17 documents we can jog some memory. Did you have any 18 contact again during '52 to '60 at Monsanto with 19 someone named Tucker, a medical researcher? 20 A. Tucker, oh, Scott Tucker. 21 Q. I believe so. 22 A. I thought he came with the company later 23 t han '6 0. 24 Q. I'm not sure what his time period was. 25 A. And the answer is no direct contact. I WATER PCB-SD0000028015 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 21 1 just know who he is. 2 Q. Did you ever have any informal contact 3 with him after 1960? 4 A. I can't say I didn't. 5 Q. How about a Dr. Wheeler, did you have 6 informal or formal contact with him? 7 A. I don't know a Dr. Wheeler. I know an 8 Elmer Wheeler. 9 Q. Elmer, did you have any contact with 10 him? 11 A. Yes, I did. 12 Q. Was it informal contact or formal 13 contact ? 14 A. Elmer worked for what we at that time 15 called the medical department and one of the 16 functions of a group leader was to be sure that 17 necessary data were collected and this included 18 medical type statements. And they were always 19 cleared by the medical department and Elmer Wheeler 20 would have done some of this as well as the other 21 people that worked there. So, yes. 22 Q. So what kind of contact did you have 23 with him, were you in meetings with him? 24 A. Walked over to his office and sat down 25 and talked to him. Or if we were having a group WATER PCB-SD0000028016 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 22 1 meeting of some sort that he was involved he'd 2 attend. 3 Q. Did he taken groupmeetings frequently? 4 A. No, because ordinarily such meetings 5 discussed chemistry and the application data and not 6 the toxicity, medical data. 7 Q. Were you ever invited to any of his 8 group meetings as a chemist? 9 A. I don't remember. 10 Q. Again this is the period '52 to '60 that 11 we're talking about. I don't know if he's a Dr. or a 12 Mr. but how about a Mr. or Dr. Kelly? 13 A. He's an M.D. 14 Q. Okay, Dr. Kelly? 15 A. R i gh t. 16 Q. Did you know Dr. Kelly? 17 A. Yes, Emmet Kelly and he was Elmer's boss 18 and as such sometimes we dealt directly with him and 19 other times we dealt with Elmer. 20 A. How much contact did you have with Dr. 21 Kelly? 22 A. It was always on an as-needed basis. If 23 we thought that we needed an opinion on a product or 24 we wanted some toxicity testing or an opinion given, 25 it was up to -- as the head of the medical department WATER PCB-SD0000028017 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 23 1 it was up to Kelly to decide what gets done by -- 2 he'd often allow that to be done by Emmett -- I mean 3 by Elmer -- and it didn't really bother us who did it 4 because it was official from that department. 5 Q. Okay. How about a Mr. Richards, W. R. 6 Richards I believe? 7 A. Bill Richards. 8 Q. Do you recall who he was or what his 9 position was? 10 A. Yes, I don't think I ever worked for 11 Bill. I think we're now getting into the years 12 beyond 1960. When I became -- we were talking about 13 as a group leader in 1960, I cannot remember the 14 dates well enough to say when I knew Bill Richards 15 but I did know Bill Richards very well either in this 16 time period or in the succeeding time period when I 17 was working in the development department. 18 Q. Who was Bill Richards, what was his 19 position? 20 A. Started out as a -- I think he 21 transferred from our facility in Dayton at a group 22 leader level and became an assistant research 23 director rather quickly. He may have come in at . 24 that, I don't remember which way it was. But the 25 position in which I was dealing with him, he was a WATER PCB-SD0000028018 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 24 1 level above a group leader. 2 Q. As part of the functional fluids group 3 did you normally examine toxicity data? 4 A. No, we did not. We relied completely 5 upon the medical department to provide the 6 information. 7 Q. Did you examine data from the medical 8 department? 9 A. Whatever they gave us as a final 10 statement was what we used and if they said -- 11 whatever that opinion was, we followed. If they gave 12 us instructions to be careful in handling it we were 13 careful in handling it. 14 Q. What do you mean whatever instructions 15 they gave us we followed, did that relate to how you 16 dealt with the chemical or did it relate to how you 17 would advise that a product be used? 18 A. We would not have advised how the 19 product would have been used. As a group leader I 2 0 would never have advised anybody as to that type of 21 thing. We would have put their department in contact 22 with our medical department and let them talk about 23 it. We did not make statements publicly or privately 24 concerning the toxicity of Monsanto's products. This 25 was done by company edict. WATER PCB-SD0000028019 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 25 1 Q. So during this time period 1952 to 1960 2 how would you use toxicity analyses, of what use to 3 you would they be? 4 MR. ZIMMER: Let me just object. It's 5 vague a,nd ambiguous as to type of products. 6 Q. I'm speaking in general. If you know 7 you can answer. 8 A. It was also a company edict or rule -- 9 I'm not sure what they called it, one or the other -- 10 that we never took a new chemical anywhere without 11 having had the approval of the medical department. 12 So if we had a new plasticizer that we wanted to get 13 a potential customer to test or a new product, we 14 wouId go to the medical department and get their 15 clearance basically is what it amounted to, to take 16 it out to a customer. And whatever they told us, if 17 somebody would tell me that I was handling a poison I 18 sure would tell my fel lows that were working for me 19 hey, this is worse than we thought, we better be 20 careful with it so. 21 Q. So in other words, they did the toxicity 22 analysis, you did the chemical composition? 23 A. Yes, that's right, that's a good way to 24 state it. 25 Q. It's accurate then? WATER PCB-SD0000028020 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 26 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Thank you. And did they say anything 3 more specific than this is poison or this is toxic in 4 general, again if you remember? 5 MR. ZIMMERj Same objection again 6 because in general we're talking about eight years 7 but multiple products so it's difficult. 8 Q. We'll get into documents. I just want 9 to know what the general atmosphere was at Monsanto 10 and the relationship between the departments? 11 A. We ended up with a summary statement 12 type of thing usually. In other words, we didn't get 13 a thick stack of documents telling us, we got the 14 summary that was prepared by the medical department. 15 And then that summary could be taken outside the 16 c ompany. 17 Q. I see, okay. 18 A. If we had further questions -- the 19 medical department in those years was very open, they 20 not only talked to group leaders, they talked to 21 chemists, and if anybody had any problems they went 22 over and talked to them. We didn't write a lot of 23 letters and so on back and forth. But eventually 24 before anything went to the customer that dealt with 25 medical aspects of the products, effects on people WATER PCB-SD0000028021 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 27 1 and so on, it was produced by the medical department 2 and we knew that. We may have signed letters in 3 which we included that but the medical department had 4 seen it and had written it actually in most cases. 5 Q. But there was generally an informal 6 atmosphere so that you felt you could walk into the 7 medical department or the lab and ask them questions 8 and the same back and forth reciprocally? 9 A. And we did. 10 Q. What happened in 1960 in terms of your 11 job responsibilities? i 12 A. In 1960 I decided that I didn't want to 13 be a group leader anymore so I transferred to what we 14 called the development department. The development 15 department was a group of technical people who were 16 interested in basically new products and our charter 17 was to find new uses for materials, to find new 18 materials that would satisfy existing uses, and then 19 to introduce them to potential customers so that the 20 development function -- this is somewhat different 21 than in many other chemical companies at the time who -. i 22 called development different things -- but this was 23 almost a commercial -- in fact I think we eventually 24 put the name commercial development department 25 because we were looking at markets and needs of WATER PCB-SD0000028022 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 28 1 materials, trying to get research to supply products 2 or if research came up with a new idea we were the 3 ones who were responsible for taking it out to the 4 field. 5 Q. So you switched from your primarily lab 6 role into more of a marketing role at this point? 7 A. Well, yes and no except I couldn't write 8 a sales order so therefore I wasn't in the marketing 9 department if I may correct your -- I don't know what 10 term to use but the one I can think of isn't nice - 11 but it was a department between research and 12 marketing. 13 Q. Let me ask this - 14 A. And it was a level through which 15 products went before they came commercial. 16 Q. Did you during this period in the 17 development department have contact with customers? 18 A. Yes, very definitely. 19 Q. Was Texas Eastern one of your customers 20 during this period? 21 A. They were definitely one of my contacts. 22 I'm not sure of the dates exactly. I have to think a 23 minute. And yes, I'd been in contact with Texas 24 Eastern during some period. 25 Q. How about Transwestern? I WATER PCB-SD0000028023 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 29 1 A. The name was new to me when I heard it 2 very recently, within the past few months. 3 Q. In other words, you only heard about 4 Transwestern in connection with this case? 5 A. That is correct. 6 Q. Who did you report to in the development 7 department ? 8 A. A fel low by the name of T. P. Sands, 9 just like it sounds. And he reported then to the 10 director of the department. Again it was a short 11 management scale we had. 12 Q. During this time period did the same 13 openness and informality pervade Monsanto? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Any other responsibilities as part of 16 the development department? 17 A. What I have given you is a very broad 18 charter if you think about all the various things it 19 could do. I guess the only other thing that I would 20 mention is that generally the development department 21 would be the one who would initiate the product 22 1iterature. You were asking about how information 23 got back and forth a little bit ago from the medical 24 department to the group leaders. Well, ordinarily if 25 there was going to be a document put together about a WATER PCB-SD0000028024 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 30 1 potential product it would have been the 2 responsibility of somebody in the commercial 3 development department. And in that case then you 4 can see where the medical statement that was made 5 would be used by the development department much more 6 than it would be by the research department. 7 Q. So, for instance, you would put together 8 a brochure for the customer; is that correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And you would get a statement from the 11 medical department about the toxicity of that product 12 that would then go to the customer? 13 A. Yes, and that was included in the 14 1it erature per se as it came from medical. 15 Q. Did you primarily concentrate on 16 f un ctional fluids during this period? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And how long did you stay in the 19 development department? 20 A. 'til 1968 and at that point the 21 f unctional fluids group created a new concept which 22 was called a technical service and basically our 23 function was to provide technical information and 24 other types of technical service to customers who 25. were using our products or misusing our products I WATER PCB-SD0000028025 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 31 guess is a better thing to say because we didn't get 2 called when things worked well, we only got called 3 when they didn't work well. 4 Q. What did the technical information 5 include, for example? 6 MR. ZIMMER: Same objections as before, 7 vague and ambiguous, not product specific 8 particularly in such a broad time frame. 9 Q. To the extent that you can answer. 10 MR. ZIMMER: If you're asking for an 11 example. 12 A. Well, a good example would be a customer 13 was using the product and he was running some routine 14 analysis on the sample to see where it stood in 15 service, he would obtain his data and it didn't look 16 right so he'd call me up and say here are the data 17 that we obtained, will you run a sample for us. And 18 then we'd compare test methods and so on. I would 19 have done that type of thing. Or I could often get a 20 call and the fellow on the other end would say your 21 fluid is no damn good, it's not working in my system, 22 why. And I would have to try to figure out why it 23 wasn't working and what his system was to begin with 24 and try to help him in one way or the other. But I 25 was 1imited in this function to technical product WATER PCB-SD0000028026 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 32 1 type of information. 2 Q. Does that mean that, for instance, if a 3 product injured somebody would the customer call you? 4 MR. ZIMMERs Once again -- 5 Q. Or did a customer ever call you? 6 MR. ZIMMER: That calls for speculation. 7 Q. That doesn't call for speculation. 8 A. If it did I didn't answer his question. 9 I immediately gave him Dr. Kelly's number and said 10 call -- this is Emmet Kelly, he is very capable in 11 this area, he'll take care of your questions. 12 Q. So you were restricted to technical 13 information, product information? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. What percentage of your time was spent 16 dealing with customers during this period? 17 A. You mean between '68 and '82 when I 18 retired? 19 Q. Yes. 20 A. This is total customers? 21 Q. Yes, did you spend most of your day 22 talking to customers and traveling to see customers? 23 A. I would say probably three quarters of 24 it was in contact with customers and the other 25 quarter was in product data, things such as that. As WATER PCB-SD0000028027 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 33 1 the technical service manager I had ability to or I 2 should say the privilege of going to research and 3 talking to them about problems directly and also in 4 being contacted by research to help use my expertise. 5 So even though I was not in research I still spent a 6 fair amount of time with research over this period. 7 Q. Technical research? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. How would you characterize the 10 atmosphere at Monsanto, was it still an informal,' 11 open society? 12 MR. ZIMMER: Can we define those terms? 13 Those are not his words. 14 Q. They are his words. 15 MR. ZIMMER: No, they're not. We can 16 have it read back actually if you like. Object to it 17 as vague, ambiguous and undefined. He described an 18 atmosphere of openness that prevailed and the 19 pleasure that he derived from working there when he 20 first arrived. I don't think it's gone quite as far 21 as you're suggesting. 22 Q. Why don't you describe in your own words 23 what the corporate atmosphere was like from 1968 to 24 1982? 25 A. By 1968 the company had gotten much WATER PCB-SD0000028028 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 34 1 larger and we had many more rules and regulations 2 than we had before, we were much more 3 departmentalized. The functional fluids group as 4 such even became more structured. My personal 5 relationships with the people that I worked with was 6 very good, no matter what their department was. And 7 I think that came because of the way in which I 8 normally operated. If it was at all possible I went 9 to somebody's office to talk to him rather than use 10 the phone. Because if I could sit down face-to-face 11 with somebody we could be very cooperative. And as 12 the technical service manager I was able to go 13 anywhere within the functional fluids group on my 14 own, I didn't have to get somebody's permission. So 15 my personal function was quite open but the company 16 as a whole was beginning to be very structured. 17 Q. Who did you report to during this 18 period, '68 to '82? 19 A. I think it was mostly T.P. Sands. 20 Q. And who reported to you? 21 A. No one. 22 Q. Did you have a dotted line relationship 23 with anyone else in management, did you report to 24 anybody else on an informal basis? 25 A. No, I did not report to anyone else but WATER PCB-SD0000028029 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 35 1 I kept many people informed as to what I was doing. 2 Q. To the extent that you can remember 3 could you tell me who those people were? 4 A. No. I can give an example of the type 5 of relation. I dealt directly with the salespeople 6 who handled the customers' accounts. Gave technical 7 presentations at sales meetings with the field sales 8 group. I was accepted by -- I talked with people 9 like Bill Richards and others in research on the 10 problems and the progress and what was needed in the 11 way of new products. In many ways the technical 12 service manager function and the commercial 13 development function overlapped. Even though they 14 were in different departments at least part of the 15 activity was the same. We were always looking for 16 new products, we were always looking for places where 17 new things -- where the company could become involved 18 in new things. And that's how Monsanto lived, by 19 getting new things. So that activity went on no 20 matter where I worked. 21 Q. Do you recall who the salespeople were 22 for Texas Eastern during this period, '68 to '82? 23 A. Yes, John Frederickson was involved. 24 Don 'Steegan'. Jim 'Alley'. Those are the ones that 25 come to mind. WATER PCB-SD0000028030 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 36 1 Q. Do you know if he was John 2 Frederickson's predecessor? 3 A. I think he followed him, I'm not sure. 4 Q. Do you know who preceded John 5 Frederickson? 6 A. I don't remember. 7 Q. Anybody else that you recal1 that was a 8 salesperson for Texas Eastern? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Again you weren't aware whether there 11 were any salespeople for Transwestern? 12 A. No. 13 Q. You retired from Monsanto in 1982? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Have you worked as a consultant since 16 then for Monsanto? 17 A. Very seldom but yes. 18 Q. In what capacity? 19 A. Primarily supplying information. 20 Q. What kind of information? 21 A. Technical information. 22 Q. With respect to what products or fluids? 23 A. The complete range of functional fluids 24 that I've worked on. I've had calIs on almost every 25 one I ever worked on. WATER PCB-SD0000028031 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 37 1 Q. Have you supplied technical information 2 on PCB related products? 3 A. Yes, and I would add that this is 4 information from my mind and not from documents. And 5 this is true of even the other functional fluids. 6 Q. We're here to get the information from 7 your mind. 8 A. Well, most of these -- many of these 9 ques tions are historic al questions. When did you 10 bring OS-45 to market, who were you working with when 11 you developed the polyphenyl ether fluids. This type 12 of thing was what I would get asked. 13 Q. You mean in your consultant role for 14 Monsanto? 15 A. In my consultant role, yes. 16 Q. Is Monsanto paying you to appear at this 17 deposition by any chance? 18 A. Cert ainly. 19 Q. Can I ask you what the hourly rate is 20 that you're being paid? 21 A. 150. 22 Q. And did they pay you for the preparation 23 time as well? 24 A. Yes. They will. 25 Q. Is that your arrangement with all WATER PCB-SD0000028032 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 38 1 depositions that you appear as a Monsanto witness? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. A briefdigression into your membership 4 in professional groups. Can you tell me what 5 professional groups you were a member of irrespective 6 of time period and tel 1 me the time period if you 7 can? 8 A. I think I can answer your question 9 except to the time period which is very vague. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. I belong to theSociety ofAutomotive 12 Engineers primarily in order to do technical 13 commit tee work. And I must have joined prior to 1950 14 or thereabouts. And dropped the membership when it 15 beeame too expensive after I retired. So somewhere 16 in the eighties, I don't remember the year. American 17 Society for Testing and Materials. I think they have 18 a new name but this is the name I remember. And that 19 goes about the same period except I think I 20 maintained that membership somewhat longer, maybe a 21 year or two. 22 Q. And what kinds of things does that -- 23 A. The American Society for Testing and 24 Materials is often cal led ASTM and if you see 25 technical 1iterature you will see ASTM and a series WATER PCB-SD0000028033 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 39 1 of numbers. Those numbers refer to a test method 2 that was developed by ASTM and is commonly accepted 3 across the industries. And so if you say a viscosity 4 was run by an ASTM method you know that if somebody 5 else runs it by that same method they're going to get 6 the same answer. So it served the function of 7 standardizing test methods and getting these out that 8 could be used. It also served as an information 9 tran smitt al system of technical information on 10 products and test methods. 11 Q. Did you serve on any committees on that? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What were the committees? 14 A. I worked primarily in what is known as 15 Technic al Committee N under Committee D2. 16 Q. Could you explain for us what that was? 17 A. Committee D2 was the committee which 18 handled petroleum products. And they had subsections 19 for things like gasoline and grease and jet fuel and 20 diesel lubricants and so on. And one of those 21 subcommittees under them was Technical Committee N 22 which handled hydraulic fluids. And I served in the 23 formation of that committee and then on some of the 24 working subcommit tees under Technical N. 25 Q. What other professional groups were you WATER PCB-SD0000028034 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 40 1 a member of? 2 A. I belonged to the Fluid Power Society 3 which was a group put together to promote education 4 in hydraulies and hydraulic fluids primarily. It was 5 made up of people who were interested in spreading 6 the knowledge. 7 Q. Okay. Any other groups? 8 A. Belonged to the American Chemical 9 Society before I got to Monsanto and dropped that I 10 think somewhere about 1970. 11 Q. How about the American Society of 12 Lubrication Engineers? 13 A. That's the next one on my list. ASLE 14 which is now ASTL or whatever it is. But anyway at 15 the time I belonged to it, it was American Society of 16 Lubrication Engineers, ASLE. 17 Q. And what was that organization? 18 A. That was an interdisciplinary group made 19 up of chemists and engineers and plant people, 20 anybody who was concerned with the lubrication of 21 materials . And we had a very, very broad range of 22 people. It was a terrific organization for somebody 23 like myself to belong to because we had contact with 24 other people who might be using our fluids or who 25 knew what a hydraulic system looked like, could sit WATER PCB-SD0000028035 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 41 1 down and tell us things about it or knew how things 2 worked. The actual day-to-day mechanic type people 3 were the engineers that designed these systems. We 4 had contact with that as well as people who were 5 experts in lubrication or in properties of fluids 6 that were required for these things. As far as I'm 7 concerned of the organizations I have told you about 8 this was the most useful to me. 9 Q. Did you have any contact with anybody 10 from Texas Eastern through this organization? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And who was that? 13 A. I'm sure I attendeda number of their 14 meetings. I know that 01lie Fletcher attended some 15 and I also know that Earl Farmer was involved. 16 Beyond that I don't remember any other names but I do 17 know that people attended meetings. There were two 18 annual meetings a year and so consequently to 19 remember who was where at all of these I don't really 20 know. 21 Q. Okay. Do you haveany recollection of 22 what time period you first met people from Texas 23 Eastern, either 01lie Fletcher or Earl Farmer? 24 A. And I have feeling that it was in the 25 early sixties. But I would have to refer to papers WATER PCB-SD0000028036 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 42 1 that were presented at that time to find those dates. 2 (A brief recess was taken.) 3 Q. Back on the record. I'd like to talk a 4 little bit about the products that you were involved 5 with during the time you were at Monsanto and start 6 in particular with a product named Skydraul. Is that 7 a product whose name you recognize? 8 A. Skydraul, the answer is yes, in various 9 different versions of Skydraul, yes. 10 Q. Can you tel1 me what was the application 11 of Skydraul? 12 A. Skydraul was and still is used as an 13 aircraft hydraulic fluid which is used in all the 14 commercial jets in the world. 15 Q. Is it a lubricant? 16 A. No, it is a hydraulic fluid and goes 17 only in the hydraulic system. 18 Q. And when did you begin working on 19 Skydraul? 20 A. That was the first product that I became 21 involved in as a research chemist and the year was 22 1947 or 8. 23 Q. Did Skydraul contain PCB's during this 24 period? 25 A. Never. WATER PCB-SD0000028037 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 43 1 Q. I'd like to turn to OS-81. Do you 2 recal1 that product? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. When did you begin working on OS-81? 5 A. I don't remember an exact time that we 6 started the work. 7 Q. If I could introduce as Exhibit 2 this 8 document and could you please take a minute or two to 9 look at the document. Dr. Hatton, up in the right 10 hand corner I notice that you were cc'd on this 11 document. Would that have indicated that you -- I 12 know this document is very old and you probably don't 13 recal1 it specifically but does that mean that you 14 would have gotten this document normally? 15 A. My name was up under a carbon copy. Our 16 mai1 system was quite good. Yes. 17 Q. And you told me before that Sands was 18 the person who you reported to. Who is Litzinger? 19 A. 1 May I point out that 1956 falls in the 20 time period when I was a group leader before I went 21 to work and reported to Sands. Sands was still the 22 person in commercial development who was handling the 23 functional fluids projects and Litzinger worked for 24 Sands. 25 Q. And who was Langenfeld? WATER PCB-SD0000028038 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 44 1 A. Langenfeld was in the what we called 2 product group in marketing. He was a marketing man 3 and worked out of St. Louis. 4 Q. And who is J. B. Davis? 5 A. Jim Davis was a member of the commercial 6 development department and reported to Sands. 7 Q. And E. P. Wheeler is the Elmer Wheeler 8 that you referred to before? 9 A. That is correct. 10 Q. In the medical department? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. If you could just examine this and tell 13 me by reference to this or from your own knowledge 14 what was the composition of OS-81? 15 MR. ZIMMER: I'm unclear as to whether 16 you want him to confirm what's on the document or 17 from his own recollection tell you. 18 Q. Confirm what's on the document. Is this 19 document correct in term of the composition of OS-81? 20 A. To the best of my memory, yes. 21 Q. And does Aroclor-- what is Aroclor? 22 A. What is now known as a PCB. It's a 23 series of polychlorinated biphenyls which were sold 24 by Monsanto in various grades. As you notice under 25 the OS-81 various compositions were used in the WATER PCB-SD0000028039 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 45 1 various products sold. 2 Q. What does the 1248 -- what do those 3 numbers refer to, the 12 and the 48? 4 A. The first two numbers, the 12 refers to 5 the number of carbon atoms in the molecule, and the 6 48 refers to the percent chlorine, average percent 7 chlorine in the material. 8 Q. Of what significance is the percent 9 chlorine? 10 MR. ZIMMER: I just need to object that 11 it's vague and ambiguous. It couId have different 12 significance for one person or for another or for an 13 application versus another. I'm just not clear what 14 you mean. 15 Q. For instance, does the 48 percent 16 chiorine mean that -- let's talk about the time 17 period of 1956, was there some perception that the 18 higher chlorination the more toxicity or the more 19 danger? 20 A. No. 21 MR. ZIMMER: Hang on a second. Some 22 pe rception by whom? 23 Q. By Dr. Hatton. I'm only speaking about 24 his personal knowledge. 25 A. The amount of chlorine in the material, WATER PCB-SD0000028040 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 46 1 as far as my concern was, related to things like 2 viscosity and density and fire resistance, the 3 physical properties of the material. 4 Q. Was OS-81 sold to Texas Eastern as far 5 as you know? ' 6 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes. 7 Q. Do you have any recollection of what 8 time period it was sold to Texas Eastern? 9 A. Early fifties which is incidentally 10 confirmed by this date here because we were arranging 11 for information of a type that would be required to 12 put it on the market or to take it to a customer. 13 Q. Are you referring to the fact that it's 14 directed to Mr. Wheeler? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. So in other words, why would you send it 17 to Mr. Wheeler, why did you need that information? 18 MR. ZIMMER: He didn't send this to Mr. 19 Wheeler but you're talking about this type of request 20 in general? 21 Q. That's c orrect. 22 A. This was to determine the handling and 23 the toxicity information on a proposed product. 24 Q. To your knowledge were there any other 25 customers for OS-81? WATER PCB-SD0000028041 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 47 1 MR. ZIMMER: Other than Texas Eastern? 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. I don't remember any others that we 4 would cal1 customers. The product bulletins were 5 widely distributed to potential customers. But when 6 you ask for sales, I don't remember. I just can't. 7 Q. Okay. Could you explain to me what the 8 dif ference between the Pydraul's or an OS-81 was, is 9 an OS-81 a type of Pydraul or were they different 10 products? 11 A. Several questions there. 12 MR. ZIMMER: I agree. 13 A. So I'll answer them in some order. 14 First, OS-81 was not a Pydraul. It's Pydraul, it 15 means fire and hydraulic. 16 MR. ZIMMER: Why don't we let her ask 17 the next question. You've answered that one. 18 Q. What was the difference between a 19 Pydraul and OS-81? 20 A. The primary difference was in 21 application of the material. 22 Q. What was the application for the 23 Pydraul? 24 A. Hydraulic fluid. 25. Q. Was it ever used in gas compressors? WATER PCB-SD0000028042 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 48 1 MR. ZIMMER: Cal Is for speculation as to 2 what customers or even users might have done with it. 3 Q. To the extent you can answer. 4 A. I don't think so. 5 Q. Okay. So OS-81 was used as far as you 6 know in gas compressors? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. I'd like to introduce as Exhibit 3 this 9 document. This is a document dated April 19th, 1966. 10 Dr. Hatton, you're not noted on here and the only 11 reason I'm showing this to you is to refresh your 12 recollection about the composition of MCS -- it says 13 1531 but I think it means 153. Is there any 14 difference between MCS-1531 or do you think that's a 15 misprint? 16 A. MCS-153-1 actually refers you to the 17 MCS-153 dash rust inhibitor. There was one additive 18 put into 153 to make it 153-1 which was the rust 19 inhibitor. 20 Q. Okay. And is this composition correct 21 in terms of -- to the best of your recollection -- in 22 terms of what MCS-153 contained? 23 A. With the addition that this did contain 24 the rust inhibitor. 25 Q. Was this a product that was sold to WATER PCB-SD0000028043 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 49 1 Texas Eastern? 2 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes. 3 Q. Do you have any recollection -- Strike 4 that. Was this sold concurrently with OS-81? 5 A. I don't know. 6 Q. Do you know if it was a substitute for 7 OS-81? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. You do know? 10 A. It was, it was a follow-on product, the 11 next product in the line. 12 Q. Do you recal1 when it was substituted? 13 A. No. 14 Q, Do you know why there was a follow-up? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. CouId youexp lain to us why? 17 A. One of the problems with OS-81 was the 18 fact that at low temperatures it became too viscous 19 and by too viscous I mean didn't flow. It was 20 requested, since the application was outdoors, that 21 we develop a product which would flow at lower 22 temperatures than OS-81. And on that basis MCS-153 23 was developed. And it met the requirements. 24 Q. I note by comparing the previous 25 exhibit, the composition of OS-81 with the WATER PCB-SD0000028044 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 50 1 composition of MCS-1531, that Aroclor 1248 is 2 substituted for Aroclor 1232 -- I don't know if it's 3 substituted but it disappears and 1232 appears. Was 4 that solely done because of the viscosity question? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. I note up here in the right hand corner 7 that it says revised as Turbinol 153 8-31-70. Do you 8 recall that? 9 A. I do not recal1 that exact event but it 10 would have been our normal practice to trademark 11 products after they had been used by customers under 12 MCS numbers or OS numbers or some such code numbers 13 and as the product became large enough and important 14 enough to give it a commercial name then it would 15 have been given one and in this case Turbinol was 16 used. 17 Q. So to the best of your recollection was 18 Turbinol 153, the composition, the same as MCS-153? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. The onlychange was that it was --was 21 the trademark name? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. By the way do yourecall explaining to 24 Texas Eastern first of al1 why there had been a 25 change from OS-81 to 153? WATER PCB-SD0000028045 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 51 1 A. Yes. It was at their request that this 2 work was done. 3 Q. What was their request? 4 A. They were the ones who pointed out to us 5 that the pour point or the viscosity of OS-81 at low 6 temperatures was too high and this was a product 7 improvement that they requested. 8 Q. Now could you digress a 1ittle bit and 9 tell us lay people what pour point means? 10 A. Yes. I'll tell you -- I think the 11 easie st way to explain it is to tell you how you 12 determine it and then it I think will become clear. 13 Take a glass tube about so big around, an inch, and 14 maybe six inches high and fill it halfway full of the 15 fluid you want to test, put a thermometer down in it 16 so you can measure the temperature of the fluid down 17 inside the tubing, and then start cooling this down, 18 start at room temperature and cool it down, and every 19 5 degrees Farhenheit you 1ift the tube up from the 20 cooling bath, you tiIt it and if the surface of the 21 fluid moves you're not to the pour point yet. And 22 you keep doing this in 5 degrees increments all the 23 way down and you will get to a point at which when 24 you tiIt the tube the surface won't move. That is 25 cal led the solid point. If you add 5 degrees to that WATER PCB-SD0000028046 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 52 1 that* s the last temperature at which it moved and 2 that's the pour point. Does that indicate what you 3 needed? 4 Q. It does. And I guess my next question 5 is why was this important for the customer? 6 A. Because the lubricant as such must be 7 moved through the system in order to lubricate and if 8 it is below the pour point it is then a solid 9 material which you cannot move from point to point. 10 Q. So Texas Eastern reported to you that 11 they were having problems with the pour point? 12 A. They requested or they reported -- yes, 13 they reported that it was a problem and that they'd 14 like us to do something about it which I think is the 15 same thing you said. 16 Q. And who at Texas Eastern do you recall 17 reported this to you? 18 A. I believe it was primarily Ollie 19 Fletcher at that point. 20 Q. Were you the person who he would have 21 gotten in contact with? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Did you ever tell anybody at Texas 24 Eastern what the composition as reflected in these 25 documents -- for instance, what the composition of WATER PCB-SD0000028047 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 53 i MCS-153 was? 2 A. I don't remember. 3 Q. Would it have been considered a trade 4 secret or do you remember if it was considered a 5 trade secret? 6 A. It would have been considered 7 proprietary information. 8 Q. Referring back, to Exhibit No. 2 where it 9 says the composition of OS-81 -- it says confidential 10 composition data. That's what you mean, that it 11 would be considered confidential to the company, you 12 wouldn't want to disclose that to customers? 13 A. It wouId be considered confidential, 14 ye s. 15 Q. Dr. Hatton, I'd like to show you Exhibit 16 4. In the scale of things this is a fairly recent 17 document, 1981; previous to your retirement, however. 18 Will you please take a minute to review this. Now 19 this is a very complimentary letter. You're not 20 reflected as having been cc'd on this but I just 21 wanted to confirm with you that this is accurate that 22 you did work with Texas Eastern during the entire 23 time that Monsanto was supplying Texas Eastern with 24 the chlorinated phosphate esters; is that correct? 25 MR. ZIMMER: Before you answer. Doctor, WATER PCB-SD0000028048 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 54 1 let me note that the date of this letter, February 2 20, 1981, is long after Monsanto was supplying Texas 3 Eastern with PCB-containing lubricants and it doesn't 4 say that Dr. Hatton is continuing to work with them 5 about the supply of any lubricants. It just makes 6 comments about his experience and competence in this 7 area and questions that were apparently posed to him. 8 Q. That's al 1 I'm asking. I'm not asking 9 beyond the scope of the letter. I read exactly from 10 the letter. I wanted to know if this was accurate, 11 the second paragraph. Did you work with Texas 12 Eastern during the entire time that Monsanto was 13 supplying Texas Eastern. That's all I asked. 14 A. Yes. 15 MR. ZIMMER: I'm sorry. 16 Q. By chlorinated phosphateesters, is that 17 another way of saying the three products we talked 18 about, the OS-81, the MCS-153 and Turbinol 153? 19 MR. ZIMMER: You're asking what that 20 means to him rather than what the author of this 21 Texas Eastern document meant? 22 Q. That's correct. 23 MR. ZIMMER: What doesthat term mean to 24 you? 25 Q. Does it include OS-81? WATER PCB-SD0000028049 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 55 1 A. That term, yes. In the time period in 2 which that was being used that would include both 3 product s. 4 Q. Okay. Would you say for your group that 5 you were the person who was primarily responsible for 6 contacts with Texas Eastern? 7 MR. ZIMMER: In what time frame? 8 A. Oh, no, because -- when? 9 Q. Let's first talk about from '52 to '60. 10 Let's talk about al1 the time frames that you talked 11 about in development. 12 A. Let's see, that was during the group 13 leader period. There would have been a development 14 person who would have also contacted and I believe at 15 that time it was either Jim Davis or Stu Litzinger 16 and I'm not sure which but it would have been 17 somebody in Sands group. 18 Q. Jim Davis or Stu Litzinger, do you know 19 if either of those people are alive? . 20 A. No, Jim is gone and the last information 21 I had Stu is still alive. . 22 Q. How about from 1960 to 1968, were you 23 the primary person responsible for contacting Texas 24 Eastern about the products? 25 A. I would say primarily, yes. WATER PCB-SD0000028050 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 56 1 Q. Anyone else you can think of from 2 Monsanto besides the salespeople that you've already 3 talked about who did contact Texas Eastern about the 4 products? 5 MR. ZIMMER: During what time frame? 6 Q. *60 to '68? 7 A. At one time at one period I know that 8 Dale Smith had some contacts. 9 Q. What was his responsibility? 10 A. He was at this time I think mostly 11 product support type of activity in marketing. 12 Q. What was a product support activity? 13 A. An activity which was done which 14 actually beeame a technical service manager type of 15 activity but it also had a little more to do with 16 actu al supply of product. 17 Q. Do you know if Dale Smith is still 18 alive? 19 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes. 20 Q. Do you have any idea when he retired or 21 if he retired from Monsanto? 22 A. He is retired now. I do not remember 23 the date. 24 Q. I'd like to introduce as Exhibit 5 this 25 letter. Dr. Hatton, if you could just take a minute WATER PCB-SD0000028051 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 57 1 to review that, dated November 7th, 1961, a letter 2 writ ten by you to Walter Woods at Texas Eastern. 3 First just some identification. Who is Mr. L. J. 4 Sun ski; do you recal1? He's cc'd on the last page. 5 A. Danville, Kentucky. It does not ring a 6 bell at the moment. 7 Q. And Walter Woods was one of the 8 individuals at Texas Eastern that you had frequent 9 contact with? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Do you recal1 what his position was? 12 A. He was in the engineering department. I 13 do not remember his exact title. 14 Q. And what was the purpose of this letter 15 if you remember or you can surmise from reading it? 16 A. I would surmise from reading this that 17 it involves some used samples of MCS-153 which came 18 f rom a turbine that had j ust been started up by Texas 19 Eastern and they asked us to take a look and 20 determine how -- apparently the unit was delivered 21 with petroleum oil in it and they wanted to know how 2 2 much was in there. I would also surmise from this 23 that there was a foaming problem because I talk about 24 how you determine foaming and what could cure it. So 25 there must have been a siight foaming problem at that WATER PCB-SD0000028052 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 58 1 point. 2 Q. What is a foaming problem? 3 A. Well, the simplest example is like a 4 head on a beer. In other words, it is the foam which 5 is on the top of a fluid which can occur under some 6 circulating conditions. 7 Q. And what happens to the foam after it 8 foams, where does it go? 9 A. It eventually will buiId up to a level 10 and maintain itself and this can be rather high, it 11 can be high enough to fill the reservoir full of 12 foam. It can be controlled by the use of an additive 13 such as I've indicated here. 14 Q. Without getting into an engineering 15 study of a compressor, by reservoir do you mean that 16 there is a portion off of the compressor which 17 contains the extra fluid -- what do you mean by 18 reservoir? 19 A. In any circulating system you must have 20 more fluid than will fill the lubricating system, 21 otherwise you cannot circulate it around if you don't 22 have that much. And reservoir is simply where it is 23 held and it is part of the circulating system. 24 Q. So it's within the compressor itself? 25 A. Yes. It's actually beneath the WATER PCB-SD0000028053 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 59 1 compressor but it is piped into the compressor and 2 into -- well, may I backtrack because that isn't 3 quite correct. 11 was most often put near the gas 4 turbine, the actual power-producing part of the unit. 5 Q. Are you familiar with the term open and 6 closed systems? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Could you tell me what anopen system 9 versus a closed system means? 10 MR. ZIMMER: In natural gas compressor 11 terminology if those terms are used? 12 Q. Yes. 13 MR. ZIMMER: If you know. 14 Q. Let mebacktrack. Anopen system versus 15 a closed system for the use of fluids generally, not 16 just in gas compressors. 17 MR. ZIMMER: Any fluid? 18 Q. Yes, as you would use it in the 19 functional fluids group. 20 A. An open system would be one in which the 21 fluid actually passed through the system and was 22 discarded. A closed system would be one in which it 23 was circulated and reused. ' 24 Q. How is a fluid discarded in an open 25 system? Could you give me an example, for instance? WATER PCB-SD0000028054 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 60 1 MR. ZIMMER: Once again it's incredibly 2 vague and ambiguous. 3 Q. I'm spec ifically referring to your 4 experience with PCB fluids. 5 A. Then I can't give you an example. 6 Q. That were no open systems that used PCB 7 fluids? 8 MR. ZIMMER: Doctor, let me object. 9 That isn't what the prior question asked. The prior 10 question inquired generally as to his knowledge of 11 the terms open and closed systems. So let's try 12 another question. 13 Q. I'm just trying to understand what an 14 open system is by an example of an open system. 15 MR. ZIMMER: Which he has already given 16 you so. 17 Q. That's a question because you told me 18 the theory and I would like an example. 19 MR. ZIMMER: Now there's a question. 20 A. Small air compressor would normally 21 discard the fluid to the air or to the gas that was 22 being compressed. Larger systems couId be an example 23 of a closed system in which the fluid was circulated 24 back again. 25 Q. Was a compressor in a pipeline WATER PCB-SD0000028055 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 61 i considered an open or a closed system? 2 A. Closed system. 3 Q. Are there any shades of gray in between 4 partially open and partially closed? 5 A. Yes, of course. 6 Q. Where wouId a compressor in a pipeline 7 system fit within those? 8 A. In a closed. j 9 Q. One hundred percentclosed? 10 A. That would depend on the specific design 11 of the compressor and I don't really know how to 12 answer your question. But - 13 MR. ZIMMER: I think you have answered. 14 That sounds 1ike it's in the eye of the beholder. 15 Q. Is there any system that's more closed 16 that you worked with than a gas compressor system? 17 MR. ZIMMER: Object, calls for i 18 speculation and vague. If you understand the 19 question you can answer. 20 A. You're asking for any system that is 21 more closed? 22 Q. Yes, because you told me there were i 23 shades, gradations. I'm wondering what the most 24 closed system that you had experienced would be or 25 was? WATER PCB-SD0000028056 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 62 i A. All right. Use of polyphenyl ethers in 2 a vacuum pump. 3 Q. What is a polyphenyl ether? 4 A. Polyphenyl ether is a -5 Q. I just want to know if it's a PCB 6 material? 7 A. Absolutely not. 8 Q. Is there any more closed systems that 9 use PCB materials than a gas compressor in a 10 pipeline? 11 A. PCB's were used as vacuum pump fluids. 12 Q. Okay. I believe we're up to Exhibit 6. 13 I just want to show this to you to confirm that Mr. 14 Fletcher was a person at Texas Eastern who you had 15 contact with in 1961? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Do you recal1 what his position was? 18 A. In the engineering department. I do not 19 know his title the various times I contacted him. 20 Q. Do you know what Texas Eastern used 21 before it used PCB materials for lubricants? 22 MR. ZIMMER: Object to the question as 23 it's vague as to both time, place and any specificity 24 as far as where or for what application. 25 Q. To the extent that you know you can WATER PCB-SD0000028057 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 63 1 answer the question if you understand it. If not 2 I'll be glad to rephrase it. 3 A. They used motor oils for engines and, 4 you know, there were greases around the place. I 5 don't know, I cannot give you a list of all the 6 products that they used if the question is broadly 7 what did they use tot ally because I don't know. 8 Q. Did you have any conversations with 9 anybody at Texas Eastern about switching to PCS 10 lubricants or was that before you were involved? 11 A. No, the contacts that I had with 01lie 12 Fletcher were the ones that first discussed it. 13 Q. Do you recall the time frame? Did it 14 predate this letter, 1961? 15 A. Yes. 16 MR. ZIMMER: The question was do you 17 recal1 the time frame of when you first - 18 A. It's some time in the late fifties, in 19 that period somewhere in there. I cannot give you an 20 exact date or place. 21 Q. Do you recal1 how it came about, did he 22 approach you and say I've got a problem or did you 23 approach him and say I've got a product, do you have 24 any recollection of the manner in which this idea for 25 PCB lubricants came about? WATER PCB-SD0000028058 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 64 1 A. I don't know who was first. 2 Q. Do you have any recollection of any 3 discussions you had with 01lie Fletcher around this 4 period when they were thinking about using your 5 product? 6 A. Yes. I know that Ollie was assigned the 7 problem of looking for a fire resistant lubricant for 8 their turbins because he told me so and that he was 9 much interested in it. And I also know that I was 10 much interested in turbine lubrication at that point 11 too. So to say who first brought up the subject I 12 don't know but we certainly discussed it in detail. 13 Q. This is Exhibit 7. I'd like to have you 14 take a look at this, Dr. Hatton. You're not cc'd on 15 this so I know that you didn't see this or you might 16 have seen it. Let me ask, did you see it; do you 17 recal1 seeing this? 18 MR. ZIMMER: Seen which? There are two 19 pages to Exhibit 7. 20 A. Emmet's letter or the Texas Eastern 21 letter? 22 Q. Emmet's letter because this is a 23 Monsanto Chemical Corporation letter. 24 A. I do not remember seeing it. 25 Q. Let me direct your attention to the last WATER PCB-SD0000028059 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ,ST. LOUIS MISSOURI 65 1 full paragraph of that letter which begins with: 2 Let me repeat that it is certainly my opinion 3 that the use of this material in the 4 application you describe will not afford any 5 toxic hazard provided the above simple 6 recommendations are carried out. 7 Do you recall any other discussions with 8 Mr. Fletcher or Mr. Woods about toxicity other than 9 this communication? 10 MR. ZIMMER: Before you answer, the 11 Doctor didn't write this letter so he doesn't recall 12 this communication. 13 Q. That's phrased poorly. Do you recall 14 any discussions at al1 with either Mr. Woods or Mr. 15 Fletcher regarding the issue of toxicity of OS-81? 16 A. I can' t remember specific instances. If 17 they would have come up I would have referred them to 18 Emmet or Elmer and they would have talked either 19 directly to my contacts or to the medical department 20 at Texas Eastern. 21 Q. So you didn't tell them anything 22 different than what is reflected in this letter? 23 A. No. I'm not even sure I told them that. 24 MR. ZIMMER: Thank you for pointing that 25 out. I was just about to observe that. WATER PCB-SD0000028060 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 66 1 Q. You don't recall ever talking to them 2 about it? 3 A. If I talked to them I either made the 4 reference I indicated or I gave them the technical 5 bulletin which they already had and referred them to 6 the statement there. 7 MR. ZIMMER: Do you recall ever 8 discussing this is sue with anyone at Texas Eastern, 9 that's the question. Let's stick to the question. 10 A. No. 11 Q. As you testified your normal course 12 would have been to refer them to the medical 13 department? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. By the way, does this dateon this, 16 1958, help refresh your recollection about the date 17 which it was first introduced to Texas Eastern? 18 A. Yes, this indicates a little earlier 19 than I had said when I said early sixties or late 20 fifties although this is late fifties so I'm not 21 completely off. 22 Q. During this time period doyou remember 23 whether there were any field tests at Texas Eastern 24 of any of the lubricants that were ultimately used? 25 MR. ZIMMER: Could you be more specific WATER PCB-SD0000028061 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 67 1 as to any of the lubricants eventually used? 2 Q. OS-81, MCS-153 Turbinol 153? 3 A. I was aware that it was going to be used 4 in a turbine compressor combination in full scale and 5 I do not remember when or where but these were part 6 of the discussions, that it was going to be full 7 sc ale t rial, not a smal1 one, a full one. 8 Q. And what do you mean by a full trial? 9 A. A piece of equipment that was in normal 10 use on a pipeline. 11 Q. For what period of time? 12 A. For whatever the Texas Eastern felt they 13 need to get a good answer. 14 Q. Do you recal1 what that period was? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Were you ever present at any of these 17 field tests? 18 A. Yes, although I should point out 19 immediately that a field test involves a period of 20 time of months or maybe a year and I obviously would 21 not have been present at the entire time. I was 22 present at one start-up. 23 Q. And that brings me to my next question 24 which is through your contacts with Texas Eastern did 25 you gain knowledge of how a gas compressor works? WATER PCB-SD0000028062 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 68 1 A. Superficial. 2 Q. I'm sure that mine's a lot worse. Let 3 me ask this about the use of a gas compressor, and 4 maybe I can refer to this document which I'll 5 introduce this as document 8, Exhibit 8. These are 6 sales summaries that have been produced to us by 7 Monsanto of sales to Transwestern Pipeline. And, 8 Doctor, I know that you testified you never heard of 9 Transwestern. I'm not asking you whether you know 10 spec ifically about this sale but what I'm curious 11 about is the fact that this shows that there are 12 sales in 1968, 1969 and 1970. My question relates to 13 this, what do the incremental sales beyond the first 14 fill of a compressor represent? To your knowledge 15 why would a pipeline company want more fluid after 16 the first fill, where does the fluid go? 17 MR. ZIMMER: The question is compound. 18 Doctor, always let me finish my objection first if 19 you wouId please . Compound, vague, ambiguous, calls 20 for speculation as to why or what a natural gas 21 company would do with the fluid. But if you know you 22 can answer. 23 A. I can think of two answers. One is they 24 may be starting up a new piece of equipment, 25 therefore they *d buy more fluid. The second is that WATER PCB-SD0000028063 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 69 1 it may have been spilled in transfer. Or they may 2 have broken a line. 3 Q. To your knowledge was any of the PCB 4 material just carried through with the gas in normal 5 us age ? And therefore used up? 6 A. I do not have that kind of information. 7 Q. You don't know from your knowledge of 8 gas compressors whether that's the case? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Any other thoughts about why a pipeline 11 company would need more fluid beyond the first fill? 12 MR. ZIMMER: Any other speculation you 13 mean? 14 A. Those two are the only things . 15 Q. To the extent that he knows. 16 MR. ZIMMER: He's already offered you 17 what might have as his answer said occurred. 18 Q. I'm giving a follow-up question. If he 19 doesn't know. 20 MR. ZIMMER: The question begs for 21 speculation so that's what it's going to get. If you 22 have any other 23 A. No, those are the two reasons that I 24 would think of. 25 Q. I'll mark this as Exhibit 9. Take a WATER PCB-SD0000028064 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 70 i look at this letter for a minute. I'd just like to 2 direct your attention on the second page to the 3 second paragraph: 4 As to the fluid itself, we do not claim it to 5 be unchangeable or indestructible, just the 6 next thing to it. 7 Did you ever hear in any of your 8 conversations or in your work that the product -- I 9 guess they're referring to MCS-153 -- was the next 10 thing to unchange able or indestructible? 11 A. I do not remember any time that those 12 two particular words were used. 13 Q. Do you think that's a fair 14 characterization? 15 MR. ZIMMER: That it's either 16 unchangeable or indestructible or that it's the next 17 thing to it as this letter by Mr. Smith states? 18 A. I think the next thing to it would be 19 the expression I wouId use. 20 Q. Right. What does that mean to you? 21 MR. ZIMMER: Let me object that what it 22 means to Dr. Hatton -- I'm happy to have him tell you 23 but what it meant for Mr. Smith to Mr. Stephens in 24 this letter that Dr. Hatton neither authored nor was 25 copied on could be something else entirely. WATER PCB-SD0000028065 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 71 1 Q. I agree and we may get to talk to Mr. 2 Smith. I just want to know what it means to Dr. 3 Hatton . 4 A. The product was developed because it was 5 quite stable in use and this just means that it would 6 have a long life in service as long as you kept it 7 clean and didn't cont aminate it with other materials. 8 Q. As you use the term -- I'm not asking 9 you for Mr. Smith's opinion of the term -- does this 10 have anything to do with biodegradability? 11 A. No, my answer to your question has to do 12 with functionality in the system. 13 MR. ZIMMER: Let me obj ect somewhat 14 belately that Dr. Hatton didn't use the term until 15 you referred him to the language in the letter as 16 well. So he's responding to that comparison question 17 but at any rate. 18 , Q. I'm just asking him to respond to my 19 ques tions. Exhibit 10 -- and this will be the last 20 exhibit before lunch, Dr. Hatton -- I'm not asking 21 you to read this whole document which is a document 22 which indicates that it was written by you in June 23 1964 . Do you rec all is suing this document? I just 24 want you to tell me what this document generally is 25 and then I have one question about it. WATER PCB-SD0000028066 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 72 1 A. Now that I have seen it again, yes. 2 MR. ZIMMER: Why don't you flip through 3 it briefly to familiarize yourself with it? 4 A. Periodically it became necessary to let 5 everybody know exactly what was going on on a 6 project. And we issued summary type of documents 7 such as this. The title of this is a 'reappraisal.' 8 And what that would mean to me, what the assignment 9 was, was to look at the fire resistant turbine 10 lubricant field again as of this date and determine 11 what our potentials of ever getting the whole market, 12 what the whole market would amount to, the various 13 types of questions that management would ask 14 concerning any given project. And I put together in 15 this particular document my best answers to those 16 questions. 17 Q. So was this an internal Monsanto 18 document? 19 A. This is completely an internal document. 20 Q. By everyone you mean everyone at 21 Monsanto or customers? 22 MR. ZIMMER: He said he wanted to let 23 everyone know what was going on with a product. It's 24 not customers, but Monsanto. 25 A. No, within the company. WATER PCB-SD0000028067 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 73 1 MR. ZIMMER: Let me object first. 2 That's the order in which this normally occurs. I 3 don't think that per counsel's suggestion that the 4 Doctor implied nor did the prior answer suggest that 5 he meant everyone, meaning every single person at 6 Monsanto. There happens to be a distribution list of 7 this memo the second page in. 8 Q. I think he answered the question 9 adequately. 10 A. These are al1 people who had some 11 f unc tion in the f unction al fluids activity, not in 12 al1 the other products that Monsanto might have had 13 including research, development, management, sales, 14 ma rketing . These names al1 represent the various 15 activities that were done. And when I indicated that 16 these -- that al1 the people got it I meant all the 17 people who were in the functional fluids group. 18 Q. As of 1964? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. There are some newnames on here so if 21 we could take a minute if you can identify some of 22 them for me. Mr. Anagnostopoulos? 23 A. Anagnostopoulos, he atthis point was 24 close to being the top man in the functional fluids 25 group. WATER PCB-SD0000028068 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 74 1 Q. Do you know if he's still alive? 2 A. Last I heard he's in Greece. 3 Q. Mr. Buchanan? 4 A. Marketing. 5 Q. Is he still alive? 6 A. He left the company, went to work for 7 Ethel and I believe is still alive. 8 Q. Do you recal1 when he left the company? 9 A. Has to be early seventies. 10 Q. Mr. Davis? 11 A. Dick Davis was in marketing and I'm not 12 sure, I don't know where Dick is. 13 Q. Do you know if he had contact with Texas 14 Eastern in marketing? 15 A. I don't know. 16 Q. How about Mr. Gillis? 17 A. Gillis was in the marketing area, has 18 long since passed away. 19 Q. Mr. Harris? 20 A. Harris was in the development 21 department. Concerned about mostly with predicting 22 where fluid applications were. And I dealt with him 23 in terms of the numbers in here. 24 Q. Do you mean fluid applications in terms 25 of where the end use would be? WATER PCB-SD0000028069 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 75 1 A. Yes, what the total world market would 2 be, that kind of question. 3 Q. Mr. Klein? 4 A. Klein would have been at that point -- I 5 don't see Sands's name on here but he would have been 6 a step above Sands in the development activities. 7 Q. Is he still alive? 8 A. I do not know. 9 Q. Mr. McEwen? 10 A. He and I would have been equivalents. 11 He was working in the same group as I was. 12 Q. Mr. Morris? 13 A. Mr. Morris was at that point general 14 manager of the organic division and got it as a 15 courtesy. 16 Q. Is he still alive? 17 A. I don't know. 18 Q. Mr. Robson? 19 A. Marketing, and I have -- I do not know 20 his 1ocation at this point. 21 Q. We know who Mr. Smith and Mr. Stark are. 22 How about Mr. Wobus? 23 A. Mr. Wobus was more concerned with the 24 manufacturing of fluids at that point. 25 Q. I just want to ask you one question WATER PCB-SD0000028070 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 76 1 about this document and it's located on page 3 of the 2 document, the Bates stamp number is 001320. And I 3 want to direct your attention to paragraph 4. Will 4 you read that paragraph. I assume that these are 5 recommendations by you to Monsanto about the future 6 course of fire-resistant materials. Why did you 7 recommend that quote: 8 The possibility of developing 9 non-chlorine-containing fire-resistant 10 lubricants should be considered? 11 A. There was data available at the time 12 that indicated that chiorine in turbine lubricants 13 could cause bearing problems and therefore that if 14 this was true then we ought to be looking at 15 something that didn't contain it. 16 Q. What happened to this recommendation? 17 MR. ZIMMER: That calls for speculation 18 as to what each individual on the distribution list 19 and others in related departments did with the 20 r ecommendation. 21 Q. To the best of your knowledge was there 22 the development at that point in time, 1964, of 23 non-chlorine-containing fire-resistant lubricants? 24 MR. ZIMMER: You mean was the quote, 25 possibility of developing them, considered? WATER PCB-SD0000028071 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 77 1 Q. No, no, no. I asked him a different 2 question. 3 A. They were not developed in 1964, 4 otherwise I wouldn't have written the statement 5 saying they should be considered. 6 Q. Okay. Was there a consideration given 7 to the best of your knowledge to the development of 8 these materials at that time? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. What was the decision at that point in 11 time? 12 A. I do not know exactly that they took a 13 decision at this point in time but eventually such 14 products were developed. 15 Q. When were such products developed? 16 A. I don't have a date of when they were 17 developed. It has to be in the late sixties, early 18 seventies period. 19 Q. So it's later than this? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Do you know if there was work in the 22 labs that commenced starting in 1964 and 1965, 23 whatever, on the development of these products? 24 A. Not on the spec ific products but I do 25 know that the chemistry that had to be used was under WATER PCB-SD0000028072 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 78 1 consideration at this time. 2 Q. And there was actual work in the labs on 3 the chemistry? 4 A. Yes. 5 (Luncheon recess was taken.) 6 Q. We're back after a lunch break. This 7 afternoon I'm going to be showing you documents that 8 there's no apparent reference to you in the 9 documents, you haven't been cc'd on, you're not the 10 author or recipient of. And I want to make clear 11 that I'm not asking you for what's in somebody else's 12 mind when they wrote it or to speculate about the 13 cause or effect of the document but just to see what 14 it triggers off in terms of your own knowledge of 15 relevant acts in the period, and particularly because 16 some of these people I believe are dead, are no 17 longer available to be deposed. 18 For instance, do you know if Dr. Kelly 19 is still alive. 20 A. Yes, he is. 21 Q. He is still alive. Do you know where he 22 is? 23 A. St. Louis area somewhere. I do not have 24 a phone number or an address. 25 Q. How about Mr. Wheeler, is he still WATER PCB-SD0000028073 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 79 1 alive? 2 A. No, he is passed on. 3 Q. How about Mr. Tucker; do you know if 4 he's still alive? 5 A. I didn't know him that well and I have 6 no idea what he's doing these days. 7 Q. With that in mind I don't want to go 8 through every document to say that I didn't see this. 9 You're not apparently listed on these documents but 10 we'll proceed. And I believe that we're up to 11 Exhibit 11. Take a minute to study this document. 12 It's difficult reading. 13 MR. ZIMMER: Were you able to make out 14 all that, Doctor? It is indeed a very poor copy. 15 A. Yes, at least sufficiently. 16 Q. First of all, have you ever seen this 17 document before? 18 A. Not to the best of my knowledge. 19 Q. Do you know who Dr. Newman is? 20 A. He was or was -- I do not know which -- 21 connected with the Monsanto Chemicals Limited 22 activity in London -- no, he was apparently stationed 23 out in Newport where Monsanto had a plant, Monsanto 24 Chemicals Limited, and they were I believe a 25 subsidiary of Monsanto at that time. WATER PCB-SD0000028074 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 80 1 Q. Do you know if he was a medical doctor? 2 A. No, I do not. 3 Q. Did you -- I'm referring to this period 4 1954 did you ever hear of any concerns that 5 Aroclors or PCB's caused liver damage or might cause 6 1iver damage? 7 MR. ZIMMER: Do you have a specific 8 Aroclor in mind, counsel or just general? 9 Q. This just says Aroclors so I'm just 10 refer ring to A roc1 or s in general. 11 MR. ZIMMER: It says Aroclor paint. 12 Q. Wei1, Aroclor in general? 13 A. I do not remember any specific 14 information from that time period on this. 15 Q. Do you ever recal1 any conversations 16 with Dr. Kelly about the possibility that an Aroclor 17 might cause liver damage? 18 A. No, I do not specifically. 19 MR. ZIMMER: Doctor, give me a chance to 20 object before you answer. Let's stick with what the 21 letter says which is Aroclor paint. 22 Q. I can ask him whatever I want. 23 MR. ZIMMER: You can but that's what the 24 letter says and if he's responding to the letter I 25 just want to make that clear. WATER PCB-SD0000028075 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 81 1 Q. I think I made clear that I wanted to 2 use the document as a reference point for a number of 3 questions. So do you recall ever having a 4 conversation with Dr. Kelly about Aroclors causing 5 liver damage in 1954? 6 A. No, I do not remember any conversations. 7 Q. How about with Mr. Wheeler, did you ever 8 have a conversation with Mr. Wheeler about liver 9 damage ? 10 A. Not to the best of my knowledge that I 11 can remember. 12 Q. Do you recal1 any other conversations 13 with anyone else about the possibility of liver 14 damage again around this period 1954? 15 A. No. . \ 16 Q. Did you at some point in time hear from 17 anyone that there were concems that Aroclor might 18 cause liver damage? 19 A. Nothing comes to mind at that time 20 period. I do not remember any specific instance or 21 person discussing the subject with me. 22 Q. How about aspart ofyour general 23 knowledge or understanding,whetheryou can trace it 24 to a person or an individual? 25 A. No. WATER PCB-SD0000028076 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 82 1 Q. You worked in a lab at this period; is 2 that correct, in 1954? 3 A. Yes, either my office or I personally 4 was in the lab unti1 1960. 5 Q. Did you handle any materials that 6 contained PCB's in the lab? 7 A. Certainly. 8 Q. What if any precautions were you told to 9 take with the Aroclors or the PCB's? 10 A. We were told to keep them out of our 11 eyes and to wash our hands. 12 Q. Were you ever told that you had to have 13 adequate ventilation in the lab? 14 A. Not specifically. Laboratories are well 15 ven tilated. 16 Q. Were you ever told that in this period 17 when you worked in the lab that there might be some 18 danger of liver damage to you? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Or to any of the other chemists? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Did any of the chemists who worked in 23 the lab during that period of time ever suffer any 24 liver damage that you know of? 25 A. Not to my knowledge. WATER PCB-SD0000028077 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 83 1 Q. I'd like to show you Exhibit 12 and I 2 have to apologize, this is the way we got the 3 documents, they're difficult to read. Have you ever 4 seen this document before? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Who is Howard Mason; do you know? 7 A. Yes, he was an employee in the organic 8 division at a relatively high level and I do not know J his exact title in 1955, the time of this memo. 10 Q. Do you know who Dr. J. W. Barrett was? 11 A. He was also a member of Monsanto 12 Chemicals Limited which was the English firm. I do 13 not know his title and I don't see it on this memo. 14 Q. I'd like to direct your attention to the 15 second paragraph where the statement is made that 16 "there was not too great a difference between the two 17 compounds," and I think it's referring to Aroclor 18 1254 and 1242. Do you believe that that's a correct 19 statement? 20 MR. ZIMMER; Which statement? 21 Q. That "frankly, there was not too great a 22 difference between the two compounds, however." 23 A. We generally -- I generally in my work 24 in the laboratory treated them as -- in both the same 25 way. WATER PCB-SD0000028078 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 84 1 Q. And what was that? 2 A. Just wash my hands, clean up spills, not 3 get them in my eyes. 4 Q. So you're speaking about in terms of 5 precautions? 6 A. Yes. - 7 Q. That you didn't view a great difference 8 between the 1254 and the 1242? 9 A. Whichever we were using. 10 Q. Okay. I'd like to direct your attention 11 to the last paragraph on the first page, the 12 sentence: "We know Aroclors are toxic but the actual 13 limit has not been precisely defined." Did you ever 14 hear from Dr. Kelly that Aroclors were toxic? 15 A. I don't remember that exact wording 16 used. I do remember that we were told to treat them 17 as I've already indicated. But I do not remember 18 Kelly ever using the word toxic with me. 19 Q. Do you remember anyone else using the 20 word toxic with you? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Earlier youtestified that you had a 23 fairly free-flowing relationship with both Dr. Kelly 24 and Mr. Wheeler, that you would visit their labs, 25 they would visit you? WATER PCB-SD0000028079 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 85 1 A. No, I did not say I visited their 2 laboratories. 3 Q. Visit their offices. Excuse me, I 4 mis spoke. 5 A. Okay. 6 Q. Are you surprised that they wouldn't 7 have told you about -- are you surprised to hear that 8 you didn't hear this statement from them? 9 MR. ZIMMER: Assuming facts not in 10 evidence based upon a document which he neither has 11 seen before nor authored. I also am going to object 12 to the continuing irrelevance of any of these issues 13 as to health and safety matters being raised in this 14 deposition due to the fact that this is an equitable 15 indemnity action for property damage and I'm sure 16 we're going hear a lot more of it nonetheless but I 17 want to make that point early on. 18 Q. You can answer if you understand the 19 question . 20 MR. ZIMMER: Why don't you reask it? 21 Q. Do you remember the question? Do you 22 need to hear the question again? 23 A. Yes, I would. 24 Q. The question was are you surprised as 25 you sit here today given what you testified about WATER PCB-SD0000028080 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 86 1 your relationship with these two gentlemen that they 2 never told you either about their concerns about 3 liver damage or about toxicity? 4 MR. ZIMMER: Which two gentlemen are you 5 talking about? 6 Q. Excuse me, one gentleman. We're going 7 to get to the other gentleman in a minute. Dr. 8 Kelly. 9 MR. ZIMMER: Same objections as before, 10 particularly it assumes facts not in evidence. 11 A. My personal feeling is no, I'm not 12 surprised. 13 Q. Why not? 14 A. When I indicated that I had free access 15 to them I was referring to the problems as they came 16 from our side and if it had been a real concern that 17 one or the other would have taken me aside and told 18 me so. 19 Q. Would you have wanted to know if there 20 were concerns about either liver damage or toxicity? 21 A. Certainly, certainly. 22 Q. This is Exhibit 13. This is very 23 difficult to read. I don't want you to spend a lot 24 of time reading this. I want to direct your 25 attention to -- if you can just try and read the last WATER PCB-SD0000028081 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 87 1 paragr aph on the first page and it goes over a few 2 sentences to the next page. That' s all I'm concerned 3 about. I can read it out loud if there are problems. 4 MR. ZIMMER: Did you write it? This is 5 going to be difficult for anybody to -6 Q. You can confirm whether my 7 interpretation is correct. 8 I believe prolonged and repeated skin contact 9 with any of the Aroclors should be avoided for 10 two reasons. In the first place, the less 11 chlorinated products are liquids and are 12 excellent solvents for oils and fats in the 13 skin as well as other organic materials. 14 Secondly, it is possible that prolonged or 15 repeated skin contact could lead to chloracne. 16 I know of only two cases where such experience 17 has developed during the long history of 18 production and use of the Aroclors. In one 19 case an Aroclor was being used as a heat 20 transfer -- I cannot read that word -- in a 21 system that allowed vapors to escape when the 22 material was heated to 600 degrees Farhenheit. 23 Several workers develQped, quote, blackheads, 24 end quote, which were found by an industrial 25 physician but which in his words were so WATER PCB-SD0000028082 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 88 1 insignificant that the men were not aware of 2 them nor would a general practitioner notice 3 them. This indicates to me, however, that 4 sufficient exposure, whether by inhalation of 5 vapors or skin contact, can result in 6 chloracne which I think we must assume could 7 be an indication of more serious systemic 8 injury if the exposure was allowed to 9 continue. 10 Now do you believe that's an accurate 11 rendition? 12 MR. ZIMMER: Rendition of what? 13 Q. Of what the letter says? 14 MR. ZIMMER: What Dr. Wheeler said in 15 one paragraph of this three-page letter? 16 Q. Yes. I just want to know if I read it 17 wrong. 18 A. The only word you did not read is heat 19 transfer medium and it is medium. 20 Q. Thank you. 21 A. That term is commonly used in heat 22 transfer. 23 Q. Thank you for the comment. This is a 24 letter from Mr. Wheeler to somebody at Westinghouse, 25 1959 . Have you ever seen this letter before? WATER PCB-SD0000028083 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 89 1 A. No, I have not. 2 Q. Was Westinghouse a customer that you had 3 contact with at all? 4 A. I had some contact with Westinghouse gas 5 turbine division. I did not have contact with 6 corporate Westinghouse or other divisions. 7 Q. At the time of this document which is 8 1959, searching your memory, do you recal1 any 9 knowledge of the possibi1ity of chloracne from 10 exposures to Aroclors? 11 A. Yes, that was the reason for the comment 12 in handling the material to wash your hands 13 frequently. 14 Q. When were you first aware of the 15 possibility of chi oracne f rom Aroclor? 16 A. I have no memory of a specific date. 17 When I came to work for Monsanto I read most of the 18 product bulletins of Monsanto products. If it was 19 said in there then I would have had it. 20 Q. But you recall during the period you 21 were working in the lab that you had knowledge of 22 chior acne? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Did you have knowledge that chloracne 25 may indicate certain other serious systemic injuries? WATER PCB-SD0000028084 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 90 1 A. No. 2 Q. No one ever told you that that was a 3 possibility? 4 MR. ZIMMER: The question assumes facts 5 not in evidence and also has been asked and answered 6 but you can respond again if you want. 7 A. No, I'm not that knowledgeable of 8 medical terms. 9 Q. Did you ever tell anybody at Texas 10 Eastern, anybody you knew like Mr. Woods or Mr. 11 Fletcher or Mr. Farmer that chlor acne was a 12 possibility from handling of the Aroclors? 13 MR. ZIMMER: From as this letter says 14 prolonged and repeated skin contact? 15 Q. In any way you phrase it did you ever 16 men tion chi oracne? 17 A. I don't think so but I better answer 18 this no, I do not remember a specific conversation 19 that said this. 20 Q. I'd like to show you what I have marked 21 as Exhibit 14, a 1 ittie more readable. Have you ever 22 seen this document before? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Here's my concern, I might be missing 25 something but from my understanding of the WATER PCB-SD0000028085 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 91 1 composition of OS-81, MCS-153 and then Turbinol 153, 2 none of the Aroclors that are part of that 3 composition is listed on this list. Am I correct? I 4 just wanted you to confirm that. 5 A. Would you restate what products you were 6 talking about being included? 7 Q. I'm wondering if OS-81 -- which as I 8 understand contained 1248 and 1242, we can refer back 9 to the earlier exhibit -- 1248, and 1242, and MCS-153 10 which contained 1242 and 1232, the Aroclors are not 11 included on this list? 12 A. Aroclor 1248 is included as the third 13 product -- fourth product on the list, I'm sorry. 14 Q. But then it says Santolube 70 Mixture. 15 What is the Santolube 70 Mixture? 16 A. 11 is a rust inhibitor. 17 Q. Would that be what would be included in 18 OS-81 or was that included in OS-81? 19 A. If you'll refer back to Exhibit 3 you 20 will note that one of the ingredients that we've 21 talked about already, MCS-153, was Santolube 70. 22 Q. But 1248 is missing from MCS-153? 23 A. Yes, I stand corrected. I just 24 remembered the Santolube nomenclature from that 25 document. WATER PCB-SD0000028086 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 92 1 Q. So this would not refer to the Aroclors 2 that were included in any of the OS-81, MCS 153 or 3 Turbinol 153, would it? 4 A. That is true. 5 Q. If you note in the second full paragraph 6 there is toxicity data. And my question to you is 7 only if you know -- I'm not asking you to 8 speculate -- if you know from your experience with 9 selling this product, why it is or why it was that 10 toxicity data was included for these Aroclors but not 11 for the Aroclors that were sold to Texas Eastern? 12 A. I do not - 13 MR. ZIMMER: Before you answer, Doctor, 14 included in this memo is what you mean I assume which 15 we haven't even determined exactly where it came from 16 but it's rather incomplete in that regard because we 17 don't have information that was included elsewhere. 18 Q. We'll get to other documents but to the 19 extent that you know do you have any idea? 20 A. No. I don't even know whowrote it. 21 Q. Excuse me? 22 A. I don't even know whowrote it. 23 Q. It doesn't appear on the face of the 24 document. I'd like to mark this as Exhibit 15 25 please. This is dated September 30th, 1963 from WATER PCB-SD0000028087 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 93 1 Elmer Wheeler to Mr. F. T. Nemits at the Wynn Oil 2 Company. Was Wynn Oi1 Company one of your customers? 3 A. Not for functional fluids. To the best 4 of my knowledge. 5 Q. I'd like to direct your attention to the 6 second paragraph where Mr. Wheeler states that 7 Aroclor 1232 would be considered toxic since this 8 dose falIs within the range. Do you know what the 9 meaning of the oral LD 50 in rats is, 4470 mg/kg, do 10 you know what that means? 11 MR. ZIMMER: This is from Dr. Wheeler 12 even though it's not signed and we haven't talked to 13 him about that so go ahead and answer if you know 14 what the oral LD means. 15 A. Oral LD 50 is a measure -- or a way of 16 expressing that data that toxicologists used and it 17 related to the dosage which caused the death of 50 18 percent of the test animals. It's a very standard 19 number that is quoted. 20 Q. So, if I could repeat back -- this might 21 be an incorrect formulation -- it means that at 4470 22 mg/kg 50 percent of the rats experienced mortality; 23 is that correct? 24 A. That's my understanding from having been 25 told in the past. WATER PCB-SD0000028088 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 94 1 MR. ZIMMER: Right. And thank you for 2 noting in that fashion, Doctor, because counsel knows 3 you're neither an M.D. nor a toxicologist. And I 4 really think this is getting pretty far afield. When 5 you introduced this line of questioning you said I'm 6 not going to be asking you, Doctor, for anything 7 other than trying to jog your memory. Now we're 8 exploring the substance of documents he neither 9 authored nor has seen before not to mention my 10 objection to the relevance of this document which I 11 think is a complete whitewash with regard to the 12 issues in this case with respect to property damage. 13 Q. I think that the Court has determined 14 that this is relevant. 15 MR. ZIMMER: I'm going to start 16 instructing him not to answer if you ask him medical 17 questions like this. If you want to ask him if this 18 reminds him of something as you told him you would 19 be, great. Otherwise let's move on. 20 Q. Why don't we proceed and we'll see where 21 we get, okay. Was Aroclor 1232 one of the Aroclors 22 that was used in the fluids that were sold to Texas 23 Eastern? 24 A. I must jog my memory by looking at the 'i 25 actual formulations and the answer is on attachment, WATER PCB-SD0000028089 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 95 1 or whatever you call it. No. 3 it appears. 2 Q. Now I know that this document says that 3 refers back to the oral LD 50 at a certain level but 4 did you have any knowledge or any -- did you have any 5 contact or did anybody tell you in 1963, whether it 6 be Mr. Wheeler or Dr. Kelly or anybody else, that 7 under any dosage, whether it be small or large, 8 whatever, that 1232 would be considered toxic? 9 A. I do not remember such a specific 10 statement. 11 Q. Do you have any recollections of general 12 knowledge during this time period? 13 MR. ZIMMER: Asked and answered. 14 A. I've already told you that the 15 precautions that we used because of what we were 16 told. Beyond that I don't -- 17 Q. I'm trying to march through time here 18 and I know that this is many years ago but I'm trying 19 to understand when if ever you gained any knowledge. 20 So I know that's very dif ficult but that's part of 21 why I'm showing you documents from different time 22 periods. . 23 A. This doesn't jog my memory. 24 Q. So you have no recollection during that 25 time period? WATER PCB-SD0000028090 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 96 1 A. No. 2 Q. Okay. This is Exhibit 16. 3 A. Never seen that one before. 4 Q. My question to you is were the Aroclors 5 in an oil solution as sold to Texas Eastern? 6 A. No. 7 Q. What was the solution that it was in? 8 A. It was not in any solution, it was the 9 total proauct. 10 Q. The Aroclors were the total product? 11 A. With the other additives and materials 12 that were listed in the formulations as given. 13 Q. Okay. Did you ever hear in any other 14 context that in 1964 that there were several 15 indications that the Aroclors were more toxic when in 16 an oil solution than when administered undiluted to 17 animals? 18 MR. ZIMMER: Object since he neither 19 authored nor received this. 20 Q. He already testified to that. I'm 21 assuming that because that's what he testified to. 22 MR. ZIMMER: I'm just asking you to 23 rephrase it, that's al1. There's not a question 24 pending, Doctor. 25 Q. The question is did you ever hear from WATER PCB-SD0000028091 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 97 1 anybody, whether it be Mr. Wheeler or Dr. Kelly or 2 anyone, that the Aroclors are more toxic when in an 3 oil solution than when administered undiluted to 4 animals? 5 A. I do not remember hearing it. 6 Q. This is Exhibit 17. Do you know who C. 7 L. Early was? 8 A. Yes, Curt Early was -- started as a 9 research chemist, was hired from Shell Oil Company 10 after considerable experience and eventually moved to 11 commercial development like I did. 12 Q. Do you know if he's still alive? 13 A. My last indication is yes. 14 Q. Have you ever seen this document before? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Did you ever hear in relationship to 17 field tests of the fluids at Texas Eastern that there 18 was a concern about jeopardizing the chances of 19 getting a field test by releasing information about 20 toxicity? 21 A. I don't remember any such statement. 22 No, I don't remember. 23 Q. Did you hear anything about the subject 24 matter of this memo? 25 MR. ZIMMER: Note, Doctor, now she's WATER PCB-SD0000028092 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 98 1 talking about the memo which refers to Pydraul 312. 2 Q. That's correct, yes. 3 A. No, I have not seen this memo before and 4 I cannot remember having discussed this area with 5 Curt. 6 Q. Was Pydraul 312 a product that you were 7 responsible for? . 8 A. No. The date of this memo is 1965 and 9 this work that was being done then would have been 10 after I was in the development department. 11 Q. I see, okay. This is Exhibit 18. I'm 12 not going to ask you to read the hard to read parts. 13 I want you to turn to -- inside there's a page that 14 says a Statement from Monsanto Company, St. Louis, 15 Missouri dated October 17th, 1969. 16 MR. ZIMMER: Which page is this on? 17 Q. There's two Bates stamps but the one in 18 the right hand corner is 40110. And I want you to 19 just read that first page and then -- 20 A. Is that the page that begins "late in 21 February?" 22 Q. Yes, please. 23 MR. ZIMMER: Can we be told what this is 24 or where it came from? 25 Q. It's a statement from Monsanto Company, WATER PCB-SD0000028093 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 99 1 St. Louis, Missouri. I am not aware at this time in 2 what production this was made. We've had several 3 productions from various sources so I can't identify 4 it in that sense. If you could just read the first 5 two pages of this statement from Monsanto Company. 6 MR. ZIMMER: If indeed it is from 7 Monsanto Company. 8 Q. I'm not asking him to authenticate it. 9 MR. ZIMMER: I understand that but I 10 don't want the record to reflect it is a statement 11 from Monsanto Company. It's not on their letterhead. 12 I haven't seen it before myself so who knows. 13 Q. In 1966 did you ever hear about a study 14 done by a Professor Jensen in Sweden? 15 A. What date again please? 16 Q. 1966. 17 A. '66, I remember hearing or reading a 18 press release some time late in the 1960's that 19 concerned Jensen's work. 20 Q. Do you recall where that press release 21 was from? 22 A. Looked like it was from a newspaper 23 somewhere. I do not know the source of it. 24 Q. Do you recall anything about Jensen's 25 work or what Jensen had to say? WATER PCB-SD0000028094 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 100 1 A. Yes, it had to do with effects on 2 wildlife of DDT and related products and in those 3 tests he found some PCB's. 4 Q. Do you recal1 any discussion at Monsanto 5 about the disclosures made by Jensen? 6 A. Not spec ific discussions, no. 7 Q. Do you recall any general discussions? 8 A. I was on a circulation list from that 9 release so therefore I assume other people read it 10 too. 11 MR. ZIMMER: Doctor, she doesn't want 12 you to assume or guess or speculate. The question 13 was wh ether you rec al1 any conversations about it. 14 A. No, I do not recall any discussions that 15 we held about it at that point. 16 Q. Do you recal1 if in your mind when you 17 heard about this you had any concerns about PCB's? 18 MR. ZIMMER: When he read this press 19 release? 20 0. Yes. 21 A. Two feelings, I was obviously concerned 22 that they were finding PCB's in the environment and 23 the second concern was if they truly were. 24 Q. Let's take your first concern. What 25 would be your concern about finding PCB's in the WATER PCB-SD0000028095 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 101 1 environment? 2 A. Just a normal concern of anything being 3 added to the environment from chemical processes. 4 And I would have been as worried about some 5 by-product from some other process that we ran as I 6 wouId have of PCB's at the time. 7 Q. Any other concerns that you had? 8 A. The second question, when I said if they 9 truly were PCB's, because at this time frame we're 10 talking about the analytical methods for determining 11 exactly what was in there were very crude, and I knew 12 that and therefore questioned it. 13 Q. Did you have any discussions with 14 anybody about those two feelings that you had? 15 A. I don't remember spelling them out with 16 anyone. 17 Q. Did you have any discussion with Texas 18 Eastern about the Jensen report? 19 MR. ZIMMER: I don't think he said he 20 read the Jensen report. 21 Q. Or the press release about Jensen? 22 A. I don't have any recollection of a 23 spec ific discussion. 24 Q. You don't have any recollection of any 25 questions raised by Texas Eastern to you about - WATER PCB-SD0000028096 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 102 1 A. No. 2 Q. Exhibit 19, I'm going to show you a 3 document on which your name appears. Just note the 4 fact that you're on the circulation list and then 5 turn to the last page under the heading where it says 6 replacement for Aroclors. Will you read that? 7 A. The last page? 8 Q. The last page of the document, yes. 9 A. Thank you. 10 Q. Do you recal1 receiving this document, 11 Dr. Hatton? 12 A. No, I do not recal1 receiving it. 13 Q. Does it look like a document that you 14 received, does that distribution list look familiar 15 to you? 16 MR. ZIMMER: Two questions. Which one 17 do you want him to answer? Does it look like a 18 document he received? I think he's already answered 19 that he doesn't recal1 receiving it. 20 Q. Do you have any doubt that you received 21 this document, let me put it that way? 22 MR. ZIMMER: I don't think he knows one 23 way or the other. 24 A. I don't remember seeing it but if my 25 name's on the list I wouId assume it went across my WATER PCB-SD0000028097 * GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 103 1 desk. 2 Q. That's good. Is this what you're 3 refer ring to in terms of one of the reports you got 4 about Jensen that came across your desk? 5 A. No, this is not the document I was 6 referring to. 7 MR. ZIMMER: Let me also object again 8 belately that it misstates his prior testimony. He 9 said he saw a newspaper article or press release, not 10 a r eport about Jensen. We can find that in the 11 record if we need to. 12 Q. What is synthesized 13 bromo-chlorobiphenyls? 14 A. It's a chemical term. May I ask again 15 that you give me the chemical name again? 16 Q. It's in the document. I'm just reading 17 it. It says: We have therefore synthesized 18 bromo-chlorobiphenyls as potential replacements for 19 Aroclor. 20 A. Both bromine and chlorine are halogens. 21 They're very similar in types of reactions. And if 22 you rep laced some of the chlorines in chlorobiphenyl 23 with a bromine atom you would call it a 24 bromochlorobiphenyl. 25 Q. Is this different than a PCB or is it a WATER PCB-SD0000028098 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 104 1 different formulation of PCB? 2 A. PCB by common acceptance means 3 polychlorinated biphenyl. And that would not allow 4 having bromine or nitrogen or sulphur or anything 5 else in the biphenyl molecule, it is a specific term. 6 And bromo-chlorobiphenyl would not be a PCB. 7 Q. Okay. Do you recall the synthesis of 8 bromo-chlorobiphenyls? 9 A. No, I do not. 10 Q. You don't have any recollection about 11 it. Do you recall during this time period concern 12 about the biodegradability of -- specifically this 13 refers to Aroc lor 124 8 and 1254? 14 A. What was the first two or three words? 15 Q. Do you recal1 concerns at this time 16 about the biodegradability of Aroclor 1248 and 1254? 17 A. I was aware that the subject was being 18 worked on by people in research. I was in -- at this 19 point I was in marketing and I know that this was a 20 concern of people but I was not directly in any way 21 connected with the people doing the work reported 22 here. 23 Q. At this time period do you know who was 24 working on this is sue ? 25 A. No, I do not. WATER PCB-SD0000028099 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 105 1 Q. Do you know whether they knew whether 2 those Aroclors were biodegradable at this point? 3 A. I do not. 4 MR. ZIMMER: Who is they? 5 Q. The people. He didn't identify them but 6 he knows there were people working on it. 7 A. No. I do not know the progress of the 8 work. I did not follow it. 9 Q. And you have no idea whatever happened 10 wit h the bromochlorobi phenyls as a replacement? 11 A. No, I do not. 12 Q. Exhibit 2 0. Did you ever see this 13 document? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Did you ever hear about this document 16 anywhere at Monsanto? 17 A. I do not remember hearing about this 18 one. 19 Q. Can you describe to me in this time 20 frame, 1968, if there was any sense of concern about 21 PCB's amongst the people you worked with? 22 MR. ZIMMER: Concern in what sense? 23 He' s already described -24 Q. Concern in terms of the possibility they 25 were in this instance found in avian and animal WATER PCB-SD0000028100 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 106 1 tissues or any other concerns about toxicity or 2 persistence in the environment? 3 A. I indicated in the prior document that I 4 was aware that such work was going on and it would 5 not have been going on if it was not of concern to 6 somebody in the organization. 7 Q. Were you yourself worried about it? 8 A. Not of ficially. I did not participate 9 in this progr am. 10 Q. How about unofficially? 11 A. Personal ly, yes , I was. 12 Q. And what were you worried about? 13 A. It's quite well stated here that they 14 were finding them in animal tissues, therefore I 15 was -- I wouId be concerned about such information 16 that came from anywhere. 17 Q. How did you -- if you didn't see this 18 document and you didn't discuss this document how did 19 you know this at the time; do you know? Were there 20 general discussions in the hallway, was it a subject 21 over lunch, were people t alking about it, was there 22 general concern? 23 A. I do not -- I cannot pin down a source. 24 Obviously I must have gotten a copy of the previous 25 exhibit and if nothing else that would have let me WATER PCB-SD0000028101 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 107 1 know. Beyond that I don't really have any input. 2 Q. Did you convey any of your concerns to 3 anybody in management? 4 A. In discussions, yes. 5 Q. Do you remember who you conveyed them 6 to? 7 A. I'm having trouble coming up with a name 8 as to who I was working for at the time but it wouId 9 have been expressed to whoever this was. We're 10 talking about 1968. 11 Q. Was that Mr. Sands? 12 A. No. At this point I was probably in 13 marketing in technical service. 14 Q. Do you recall who you worked for? 15 A. I worked for half a dozen different 16 people in a matter of three years so I'm not sure 17 which one it would have been. 18 Q. Do you recall what you said in any one 19 of these discussions to these people? 20 A. No. General discussion of current 21 problems and programs. 22 Q. And do you remember what any one of 23 their responses back to you was? 2 4 A. No, I do not. 25 Q. Did you talk to either Mr. Wheeler or WATER PCB-SD0000028102 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 108 1 Dr. Kelly about these concerns? 2 A. I don't remember. 3 Q. Did you talk to any of your customers 4 about these concerns? 5 A. I cannot answer that question directly 6 because I spent so much time with customers at that 7 point and I do not remember. 8 Q. Do you remember specifically whether you 9 said anything to anybody at Texas Eastern about these 10 concerns? 11 A. No, I do not. 12 Q. This will be Exhibit 21. This is a 13 March 6, 1969 letter from W. R. Richard to E. Wheeler 14 and there's a distribution list. And I note here, 15 Dr. Hatton, that you * re not listed on this. But I 16 want to discuss with you several issues that are in 17 this letter so if you can take a little time to read 18 it. Have you ever seen this document before? 19 A. NO. 20 Q. Have you ever heard of Industrial 21 Bio-Test before? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Who were they? 24 A. They were a for hire toxicological 25 laboratory. WATER PCB-SD0000028103 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 109 1 Q. I note that it * s not going to reflect in 2 the record but it sounded like you put quotes around 3 the 'for hire.' What did you mean by that? 4 A. I meant they were not connected with any 5 university or government, any government agency, with 6 regard to undertaking grants for work that they ran 7 animal tests for, for hire. 8 Q. To your knowledge did Monsanto use them 9 in testing, for instance, for PCB's? 10 A. Yes -- no, I don't like the last part of 11 your question. Would you repeat it again? 12 Q. To your knowledge did Monsanto use them 13 for tests of PCB's? 14 A. I cannot answer that question for PCB's. 15 I thought you dropped the question earlier. 16 Q. So that you do know that they hired them 17 for tests? 18 A. Yes, I did know that. 19 Q. Did you ever have any contact with 20 anybody at Industrial Bio-test? 21 A. No. 22 Q. This time period, 1968, beginning of 23 1969, did you ever hear about the Risebrough article 24 in Nature? 25 A. I do not remember reading the article. WATER PCB-SD0000028104 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 110 Q. Did you ever hear of Risehrough? 2 A. I just don't know how to answer that 3 question. I can't remember whether I did or didn't. 4 Q. Does the name sound familiar to you as 5 you sit here? 6 MR. ZIMMER: You don't have to feel bad, 7 Doctor, about not remembering something. That's 8 f ine. 9 A. Lots of names. 10 Q. I perfectly understand. I don't want 11 you to make up anything or speculate. If you don't 12 remember, you don't remember. That's fine. Did you 13 ever hear about any report in which PCB's were found 14 in peregrine falcons? 15 A. I cannot now remember which animals were 16 being checked even in the earlier Jensen work so I 17 don't know that I heard about a specific species of 18 bird. 19 Q. Okay. Turning to page 2 I want you to 20 read to yourself paragraph (b). Again I don't want 21 you to speculate about what Mr. Richard meant by this 22 but I want to know if you ever heard any discussion 23 about defending against the accusations of enzyme and 24 hormone activity? 25 A. No. WATER PCB-SD0000028105 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ,ST. LOUIS MISSOURI 111 1 Q. Or the isolation of enzyme or metabolic 2 products? 3 A. No. 4 Q. You never heard of any of that, okay. I 5 want you to look at the paragraph which starts: "But 6 we can't easily control hydraulic fluid losses in 7 small plants." This is to help educate me but would 8 this -- or is there a difference between hydraulic 9 fluid losses and gas compressor lubricants in terms 10 of the amount that is lost? 11 A. It depends upon the application. 12 MR. ZIMMER: That calls for an 13 incredible amount of speculation. 14 Q. I just want to know if he knows. 15 MR. ZIMMER: Let me finish my objection 16 if I may make one. I'm according you the same 17 respect. 18 MS. WELCH: Sometimes. 19 MR. ZIMMER: Quite obviously by both the 20 language of this memo which he's never seen before 21 and your question itself, it's vague, ambiguous, 22 cal Is for speculation. You can answer it if you 23 know, Doctor. 24 A. Before I answer it I'd like to know what 25 the exact question was. WATER PCB-SD0000028106 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 112 1 Q. Okay. Let me rephrase it. Do you know 2 whether it was possible to control gas compressor 3 lubricant losses in a compressor station? Do you 4 know, don't speculate. 5 A. No, I do not know. 6 Q. Okay, that's all I wanted to know. The 7 next paragraph where it says, starting with the last 8 two sentences: 9 Since Risebrough's paper in Nature, December 10 1968, has just been published, it is timely, 11 perhaps imperative, that this paper and its 12 implication's be discussed with certain 13 customers. 14 Did anyone ever say to you that 15 Risebrough's paper had to be discussed with any of 16 your customers? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Did anyone ever say to you what Mr. 19 Richard says in the next line which is: 20 This is a rough one because it could mean loss 21 of business on empty and false claims by 22 Risebrough? 2 3 A. I don't rememberanybody making that 24 point with me. 25 Q. That's fine. WATER PCB-SD0000028107 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 113 1 MR. ZIMMER: Let me just note for the 2 record we're also talking about a memo which makes no 3 reference at all to the products that were sold to 4 Dr. Hatton's customers but to far more open 5 applications of hydraulic fluids and the like. 6 0. I'd like to mark this as Exhibit 22. 7 Have you ever seen this document before? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Is Monte Throdahl a person who you 10 testified you worked for at a certain point or worked 11 with? 12 A. At one time he was in the development 13 department and I think he would have been a level or 14 two above me in development and I know he worked 15 through there somewhere in the period between 1960 16 and 1968. 17 Q. In 1969 did you work with him? 18 A. No. 19 Q. When did you stop working with him? 20 A. As I say I can't give you the exact 21 dates of the bosses at that time and I know he was 22 not in development when I moved over to marketing. 23 So I guess that deduces down to the answer that, no. 24 Q. This is a letter to Dr. Kelly f rom Mr. 25 Wheeler and it uses fairly descriptive language -- WATER PCB-SD0000028108 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 114 1 the Aroclor pot is really boiling. To roe that's very 2 descriptive language. And I'm wondering just in 3 terms of a general sense of the atmosphere whether 4 you had a sense at that time that quote, the Aroclor 5 pot is really boiling, end quote? 6 MR. ZIMMER s The question is vague, 7 ambiguous, calls for speculation, a variety of other 8 things that I'm sure are quite obvious by its terms 9 but if you can answer, Doctor. 10 A. I would not have used such language in 11 describing it. I was aware that activities had 12 increased in the area. To what extent, I don't know, 13 don't remember. 14 Q. The last document that we referred to 15 when we talked about your concerns was in 1968. Do 16 you remember to the extent that you can remember -- I 17 know this is a long time ago -- but do you remember 18 increased concerns by the beginning of 1969 on your 19 part? 20 MR. ZIMMER: Why don't we take a look at 21 whatever document this is that references his 22 concerns. I don't remember it. 23 Q. We talked about that document from the 24 Fish and Wildlife people. 25 MR. ZIMMER: I don't recall him relating WATER PCB-SD0000028109 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 115 1 his so-called concerns as you put them to any 2 particular point in time. 3 Q. Do you recall increased concerns in 4 1969? 5 A. Not increased, no. You're talking about 6 myself personally? 7 Q. Yes. During this period of time, the 8 beginning of 1969, do you recall any discussions with 9 Texas Eastern about any kind of controversy over the 10 Aroclors? 11 A. No, I do not recall discussions. 12 Q. Do you know who Calandra is? Second 13 paragraph first line, Joe Calandra. 14 A. That name does not ring a bell at all. 15 Q. Fourth paragraph where Mr. Wheeler says 16 that he has "enclosed a copy of the final form of the 17 PR release that was developed last week. This has 18 been sent to 21 Monsanto customers over my 19 signature." Unfortunately we do not have a copy of 20 the press release but I'm curious about whether you 21 remember whether that press release was sent to 22 either Texas Eastern or Transwestern? 23 A. I do not know. 24 Q. If it had been would it have gone 25 through you first? WATER PCB-SD0000028110 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ,ST. LOUIS MISSOURI 116 1 A. No. 2 MR. ZIMMER: That calls for blatant 3 speculation. 4 Q. Do you know who Bergen is, Howard 5 Bergen? 6 A. Yes, I know who he is. 7 Q. Who was he? He's referred to in this 8 document in the next to last paragraph. 9 A. He was -- he spent some time in one of 10 the functional fluid groups at a relatively high 11 level. I do not know where he was in 1969. 12 Q. How about -- do you know if he's still 13 alive by the way? 14 A. I do not know. 15 Q. How about Mr. Mincklerj do you know who 16 he was? 17 A. Yes. Mr. Minckler was also a member of 18 what would be considered the management team in areas 19 relating to functional fluids. 20 Q. Do you know if he's still alive? 21 A. I think he is passed on. 22 Q. Exhibit 23. Have you ever seen this 23 document before? 24 A. No. 25 q. I just want to take you through each of WATER PCB-SD0000028111 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 117 1 the incidents that are mentioned here and find out if 2 either contemporaneous with the incident or 3 subsequently you heard about the incident. The first 4 incident in 1950, had you heard that there had been 5 several workers who had gastrointestinal illness due 6 to vapor inhalation plus possible liver damage -- 7 either in 1950? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Subsequently? 10 A. No. 11 Q. In 1964 were you aware that in Canada a 12 worker had developed a chest condition thought to be 13 from fume exposures? 14 MR. ZIMMER: This question and others I 15 want a continuing objection. It assumes facts not in 16 evidence because these are reports of this. They 17 don't state that they did occur. But go ahead. 18 Doctor, if you've heard of that. 19 A. I have not, that one. 20 Q. Then or subsequent? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Did you hear about the incident in 1966 23 in Kodiak, Alaska of swollen eyes and kidney 24 soreness? 25 A. That doesn't -- no. WATER PCB-SD0000028112 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 118 1 Q. Did you hear in November 1968 that there 2 was a strike in a plant in St. Louis that was caused 3 by two men who were overcome by fumes? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Did you hear about the incidence of an 6 exposure of a truck driver in 1969? 7 A. No. 8 MR. ZIMMER: To what? 9 Q. To Inerteen? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Did you hear about the incident in 1969 12 of exposure to Therminol when maintenance men 13 reported hand and forearm rashes? 14 A. I do not remember hearing that one. 15 Q. Okay, that's fine. 16 (brief recess taken) 17 Q. Back on the record. I'd like to show 18 you Exhibit 24. This is a document dated September 19 9th, 1969 to Mr. Wheeler from Mr. Richard and I note 20 here that you are not cc'd on this document. I don't 21 want you to sit and read this whole document. I just 22 would like you to read the first page actually. 23 A. It gets kind of fuzzy at the bottom. 24 MR. ZIMMER: There's some handwritten 25 notes that are illegible. WATER PCB-SD0000028113 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 119 1 Q. They are to me also. Did you ever see 2 this document? 3 A. No. 4 Q. The time period, September 1969, do you 5 recal1 knowing that it was probable that some animals 6 or fish or insects wouId be harmed by the Aroclors? 7 A. No, I don't recall that. 8 Q. Can you tell me, not what Mr. Richard 9 meant, but what the term means to you, Aroclor 10 degradation rate will be slow? Does that refer to 11 biodegradability or do you know if it does? 12 A. I do not know. I don't know what he 13 meant when he wrote it down. 14 MR. ZIMMER: Thank you for covering that 15 for me. 16 Q. Do you know if you knew at the time in 17 1969 that there were problems with Aroclor 18 biodegradation? 19 A. No, I do not know whether -- I cannot 20 remember whether I knew it at that time. 21 Q. Do you rec al1 knowing at that time 22 whether there was a difference or if there was a 23 difference between higher chlorinated compounds and 24 lower chlorinated compounds with respect to 25 biodegradation? WATER PCB-SD0000028114 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 120 1 A. No, I do not remember knowing that if 2 it's true. 3 Q. I don't know if it's true either but -- 4 A. So I cannot answer your question. 5 Q. I'd like you to turn to the last page, 6 the reference to biodegradation studies. Do you have 7 any knowledge of the biodegradation studies? 8 A. I do not have. 9 Q. Do you know why -- don't speculate - 10 just do you know why they were studying Aroclor 1224 11 versus Aroclor 1254? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Fair enough. This is Exhibit 25. 14 First, before we get into the document, did you ever 15 hear at this time period or subsequently about the 16 Aroclor ad hoc committee? The date on this report is 17 1969 . 18 A. Yes. I was aware that such a committee 19 existed and that activities were going on. 20 Q. Were you aware of what their activities 21 were? 22 A. No, I was not. 23 Q. How were you aware that there was such a 24 committee? 25 A. We at various times had group meetings WATER PCB-SD0000028115 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ,ST. LOUIS MISSOURI 121 1 at which such things would have been mentioned in 2 passing. 3 Q. What kind of group meetings? 4 A. The department, what you would call a 5 departmental type meeting. 6 Q. In the functional fluids group? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And if you could help me understand who 9 some of these people are. Who is James Springate? 10 A. I think he was Howard Bergen's 11 manufacturing man at the time. 12 Q. What do you mean by Howard Bergen's 13 manufacturing man, did he report to Howard Bergen? 14 A. Yes. At this point Howard Bergen would 15 have been top man in the fluids -- in this area and 16 Jim Springate would have been reporting to him in 17 terms of manufacturing I believe. 18 Q. How about Mr. Farrar? 19 A. He was a group leader in research and I 20 do not know his position at the time. 21 Q. So he had kind of a comparable position 22 to what you used to have? 23 A. I think so. 24 Q. And how about Mr. John? 25 A. I do not remember him. WATER PCB-SD0000028116 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 122 /' 1 Q. By the way, have you ever seen this 2 document before? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Did you receive any of the publications 5 of the ad hoc committee to your knowledge? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Turn to the page which is Bates stamped 8 024 252 please. Read the first paragraph please. 9 Were you a business group director of the functional 10 fluids? 11 A. No, I was not. 12 Q. Do you recal1 who was business group 13 leader -- director, excuse me? 14 A. No, I cannot recall who that would have 15 been. 16 Q. Turn to the next page please. Read the 17 first paragraph please. Focusing on the first 18 paragraph, did you ever hear that there was, quote, 19 1ittie probability that any action that can be taken 20 will prevent the growing incrimination of specific 21 polychlorinated biphenyls? 22 MR. ZIMMER: Assuming that that was an 23 accurate statement and/or the position of this 24 commit tee. 25 Q. Did you ever hear it? That's the WATER PCB-SD0000028117 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 123 1 question. 2 A. No, not that I can remember. 3 Q. You never heard it from any report of 4 this committee? 5 A. I didn't see the reports of this 6 committee. 7 Q. But in any oral report of the committee 8 either? 9 A. No. 10 Q. This is a tough one but do you know 11 whose handwriting this is on this page by any chance? 12 A. No. 13 MR. ZIMMER: You don't need to apologize 14 for that, Doctor. 15 Q. We have to ask everybody that because we 16 don't know who wrote it. I didn't expect you to 17 know. 18 MR. ZIMMER: There's no duty of yours to 19 know whose handwriting it is and when you say no 20 apologetically it implies -- 21 Q. He's just a nice person. 22 A. You know, once in a while you get 23 handwriting that will trigger something but this 24 doesn't. 25 Q. Looking at the handwriting, it is WATER PCB-SD0000028118 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 124 1 legible, the last point: Likelihood of natural 2 origin or degradation is remote. Were you aware of 3 that at the time in 1969 that the likelihood of 4 natural origin or degradation is remote? 5 MR. ZIMMER: I don't see how he can 6 possibly respond to that since not only did he not | 7 write it but he doesn't know what it means because 8 you've asked him to read now one paragraph out of - 9 a more than ten-page document. 10 Q. If he doesn't understand that he can 11 tell me that and I will attempt to rephrase it. 12 MR. ZIMMER: I just don't know why we're 13 spending time on documents he didn't author, didn't 14 read, wasn't copied on, then you ask him to interpret 15 a handwritten note. Do you know what that means, 16 Doctor ? 17 A. I know what the first part means and 18 this means that in my training as a chemist and in 19 looking into reading numerous books I could find no 20 reference to polychlorinated biphenyls being natural 21 products. Degradation was not discussed in those 22 articles and I do not know anything about it. 23 Q. So that means that it could only come 24 from synthetics is what you're telling me? 25 A. Yes. WATER PCB-SD0000028119 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 125 1 Q. Next page please. First paragraph. Did 2 you have any customers that used Aroclor 1254 or 3 1260? 4 MR. ZIMMER: When? 5 Q. In 1969? 6 MR. ZIMMER: If you reeal1, Doctor. 7 A. No, I had no customers. 8 Q. Do you have any knowledge of why the 9 decision was made to contact Aroclor 1254 and 1260 10 customers? 11 A. No. 12 MR. ZIMMER: Assuming -- 13 A. No, I don't know why they picked those 14 two. 15 Q. Do you know if at this time in 1969 16 there was also a decision, for instance, or a 17 recommendation from the ad hoc committee to contact 18 other Aroclor customers? 19 A. I do not know what the committee 20 recommended, decided or thought. 21 Q. Paragraph No. 6, did you have any 22 contact with the organic division laboratories at 23 this period of time in 1969? 24 A. No. The reference to organic division 25 laboratories has to do with plant laboratories and WATER PCB-SD0000028120 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 126 1 no, I had no connection with plant laboratories. 2 Q. What is a plant laboratory, what do you 3 mean? 4 A. It is the laboratory that provides the 5 analytical data required to run a chemical plant, 6 samples are taken from process materials and analyzed 7 to keep the plant running. 8 Q. I see. One of the points here is to get 9 samples from customer plants' environments. Did 10 anybody ever come to you and ask for a sample from 11 Texas Eastern or Transwestern? 12 A. I don't know. 13 Q. You don't recall? 14 A. I don't recall. 15 Q. Turning to the next page, just paragraph 16 8. Do you have any knowledge of whether an 17 individual was assigned from the division full time 18 to coordinate division and corporate staff department 19 ef forts? 20 A. Yes, there was an announcement that Bill 21 Papageorge had such a position, was being given such 22 a position. 23 Q. And what did Bill Papageorge do before 24 he was given this position? 25 A. I don't remember his resume that well WATER PCB-SD0000028121 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 127 1 but I think he was down in manufacturing. 2 Q. Did you have any contact with him up to 3 this point? 4 A. Up to this date? 5 Q. Yes. 6 A. Not before he was pointed to this 7 position. 8 Q. After this point did you have contact 9 with him? 10 A. Yes, I talked to him. He was located in 11 the general area. 12 Q. Did you have frequent conversations with him? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Turn to the next page, page 5, second 16 paragraph. Read the first sentence where it refers 17 to a March 3rd, 1969 letter sent to 31 major Aroclor 18 customers in the transformer and capacitor 19 applications. Do you recal1 that letter? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Do you have any recollection of whether 22 any of your customers received this letter? 23 A. The letter apparently based on this 24 document was sent to capacitor or transformer and 25 capacitor users, applications, makers of those WATER PCB-SD0000028122 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 128 1 products. I had none of those for any of my 2 products. 3 Q. Do you have any knowledge of why the 4 letter was not sent, for instance, to gas compressor 5 companies or pipelines? I asked him if he had any 6 knowledge. 7 MR. ZIMMER: I haven't made any 8 objection yet. It cal Is for speculation and it 9 refers to a letter which he's neither seen but which 10 we also haven't established did go and once again is 11 part of this multi-page document which we're reading 12 one sentence out of context at a time. But if he 13 knows. 14 A. I don't know. 15 Q. Who would have been the person making a 16 decision -- who was the head of the functional fluids 17 group at that time, March 3rd, 1969, do you know? 18 A. Based on the documents I've seen I 19 believe it was Howard Bergen. 20 Q. Next page, page 6. Please read the 21 first paragraph. Did you ever hear in this time 22 period which is fal1 of 1969 that you had to notify 23 al1 customers of the potential implication? 24 MR. ZIMMERs Once again the question 25 assumes facts not in evidence, that that is true. WATER PCB-SD0000028123 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 129 1 Secondly it is taking completely out of context one 2 paragraph of this memo which we have not reviewed in 3 its entirety to even know whether or not customers 4 refers to al1 Aroclors, al1 PCB-containing products 5 or sorts of applications those are used in. 6 Q. Why don't we take some time and read the 7 "Basis for Recommendations?" 8 MR. ZIMMER: Why don't we take the time 9 to read the whole document if we keep fooling around 10 with stuff he's not copied on or didn't author. I 11 can't believe we're spending this amount of time on 12 documents you're going to ask other people about. I 13 don't know what more you need to know about this 14 particular issue. 15 Q. Why don't we take time and just read the 16 section on notification of all customers because 17 that's primarily what I have questions about so I 18 think that's a good idea. 19 MR, ZIMMER: I think he's going to have 20 to read the whole thing if you're going to want him 21 to answer questions about things that he has not seen 22 b e f or e . 23 0. Would you care to read the whole 24 document, Dr. Hatton? 25 MR. ZIMMER: Yes, he would. WATER PCB-SD0000028124 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 130 1 (A brief recess was taken.) 2 Q. Back on the record. I'd like to go back 3 to page 6 of the document which is Bates stamped 4 024257 and ask if you ever heard at this time 5 period -- I'm going to quote the documents 6 The company could be considered derelict, 7 morally if not legally, if it faiIs to notify 8 al1 -- underlined al1 -- potential - 9 MR. ZIMMERs -- customers of the 10 product s referred to. 11 Q. It says al1 customers. 12 MR. ZIMMER: Right. And the memo deals 13 with specific Aroclors. 14 Q. Did you ever hear this? 15 A. I did not remember hearing that specific 16 statement. 17 Q. Did you hear anything generally along 18 these lines? 19 MR. ZIMMER: Again, Doctor, confine your 20 answer to the Aroclors which you've already responded 21 you weren't selling to anybody at that point. 22 A. I was aware of the existence of this 23 commit tee. I was not made aware that this decision 24 had been taken. 25 Q. So you were not aware that there had WATER PCB-SD0000028125 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 131 1 been a decision made to phase out 1254 and 12607 2 A. Not at the time of this document. 3 Q. At what time were you made aware of 4 that? 5 A. I do not remember an exact date but 6 within the next few months. 7 Q. At the time that you were made aware of 8 this did you have any questions in your mind about 9 the future viability of the products which you were 10 selling? 11 MR. ZIMMER: Did you say liability or 12 viability? 13 Q. Viability. In other words, did you have 14 any questions about whether you would be able to 15 continue to sell your products? 16 A. I don't remember a great concern at all. 17 Q. Earlier today you testified in the 18 context of your own handling of the materials that 19 you did not draw a big distinction between the 20 Aroclor 1242 and 1254; is that correct? 21 A. Yes, I did make that statement. 22 Q. Did you still have that feeling at this 23 time? 24 A. I was no longer handling them as such 25 and I cannot truthfully say that I had a worry in my WATER PCB-SD0000028126 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 132 1 mind about the differences. I think my memory tells 2 me that I was concerned about Aroclors totally. 3 Q. So that you didn't distinguish between 4 the various chlorination levels in your mind? 5 A. Not in my mind until this came out, this 6 beeame common knowledge around the place. 7 Q. What are you referring to? 8 A. The fact that 54 and 60 should be 9 removed from the market. 10 Q. Up unti1 that time you had not 11 distinguished them in your mind? 12 A. My own mental processes did not separate 13 them into Aroclors A and Aroclors B, for example. 14 Q. Why was that to the extent that you can 15 recall? 16 A. I don't know why I thought that. 17 Q. Is there anything else that contributed 18 to your separating out the Aroclors during this 19 period other than that the decision was made to 20 discontinue 1254 and 1260? 21 MR. ZIMMER: That misstates his 22 testimony. He's indicated he did not separate out 23 the Aroclors. 24 Q. He testified he started to make a 25 distinction in his mind at about the time there was a WATER PCB-SD0000028127 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 133 1 decision made. 2 MR. ZIMMER: After the decision became 3 common knowledge that 1254 and 1260 were to be 4 removed from the market. I think I'm quoting him. 5 A. That's what I mean and that's what 6 influenced me. Obviously the company had presented 7 data that found this and I was willing to accept the 8 data. 9 Q. Okay. Did you in fact accept the data 10 as true? 11 A. The data that I heard directly from the 12 company that our capable scientists said was okay I 13 believed. We hired good people. Now I shouldn't 14 have said that. That's beside the point but it is 15 truth. 16 Q. Exhibit 26. 17 MR. ZIMMER: It is another document that 18 he has neither authored, been copied or read before 19 obviously with the exception of things that have been 20 shown to him by counsel. We're going to have to 21 spend all the time it takes if you're going to 22 continue to pull one sentence out of one paragraph. 23 Q. Why don't I tell you the Section I'm 24 going to ask questions and you can make a decision, 25 counsel, about whether you're going to advise him to WATER PCB-SD0000028128 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 134 1 read the whole document. I just want to ask him 2 about pages 10 to 11 and I would be glad to take the 3 time for him to examine the whole document but let me 4 just tell you those are the pages I'm going to focus 5 on so it's your decision. 6 MR. ZIMMER: Why don't we take a look at 7 those first and then we'll decide. As long as it's 8 clear he's only looking at pages 10 to 11 I guess 9 we'll see what you have to ask him. 10 Q. That's fair. This document is a 11 report -- I won't say that because I'm not sure what 12 this document is. It's a PCB Environmental Pollution 13 Abatement Plan. It refers to the October 15th ad hoc 14 committee meeting. It is unclear I believe who 15 is sued this document f rom the face of the document. 16 Referring to pages 10 and 11, were you ever in any 17 meetings where the various courses of action that are 18 described here were discussed? 19 A. I don't remember any. The decision had \ 20 been made in the meetings that I remember. 21 Q. You mean the decision was announced to 22 you in the meetings that it had been discussed in 23 prior meetings? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And what was the decision that was WATER PCB-SD0000028129 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 135 announced to you? 2 A. That we were going to look at the 3 various applications of the fluids and determine what 4 the exposure things were and get -- withdraw from the 5 market on a phased time plan based on the amount of 6 exposure of the various products. 7 Q. Did you understand at this point in time 8 which I believe is the fall 1969 from the indications 9 in the document that there would be a total phase-out 10 eventually? 11 MR. ZIMMER: Before answer that, Doctor, 12 let's figure out why you understand that it's fall of 13 1969 since the document isn't dated. 14 Q. It refers to October 15th I assume '69 15 meeting of the ad hoc committee and I say I assume 16 '69 because the prior document was October 2nd, 1969 17 of the ad hoc committee. So that was what my 18 as sumption was. It may be incorrect but that's my 19 assumption. 20 MR. ZIMMER: So there isn't any 21 indication on the document of when it was drafted and 22 it in fact is a draft because there are lots of 23 handwritten notes. And I forgot the question, I'm 24 sorry. 25 Q. We know it's 1969 because on page 12 it WATER PCB-SD0000028130 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 136 says "immediate by 12-1 '69. So it's got to be 2 before 12-1 '69. So I would think that it's the fall 3 of '69. 4 MR. ZIMMER: That may very well be. We 5 don't know anything about it unfortunately because we 6 don't have somebody here who participated in its 7 drafting. 8 Q. I'm trying to understand what you just 9 said about what was presented to you at the meeting. 10 Maybe you can exp lain to help me understand better. 11 Was your understanding at this point in time which 12 for the sake of discussion I'll say is the fall of 13 1969 that there would be an eventual phase-out of all 14 PCB products? 15 MR. ZIMMER: Let's not say anything for 16 the sake of discussion. Let's ask him whether he 17 recalIs this meeting or meetings. I don't want to 18 confuse any of the meetings of this ad hoc committee 19 with those meetings that Dr. Hatton participated in 20 because he's indicated that he had nothing to do with 21 that. 22 Q. I want to make it clear that he was at 23 meetings not of the ad hoc committee but future 24 meetings. 25 A. And I am not sure that it was stated as WATER PCB-SD0000028131 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 137 J. a positive fact that they would eventually be 2 withdrawn but I was given to understand immediately 3 that there would be some rather immediate withdrawals 4 depending on applications which exposed the most 5 people to and the most environment to the people. 6 Q. Do you recal1 what those applications 7 were? 8 A. Not spec ifically but there was 9 discussion about open systems and closed systems. 10 Q. And what was the discussion about open 11 systems and closed systems? 12 A. Which was which and trying to define how 13 products were used where they should be. 14 Q. Was there any discussion about Texas 15 Eastern at these meetings? 16 A. I do not remember specifically. 17 Q. Do you recall if there was any 18 discus sion about gas compressors at these meetings? 19 A. The general application was in the list 20 of things that had to be checked off eventually. 21 Q. Do you recall anything that was said 22 about that application? 23 A. These meetings were merely to outline 24 the work that should be done and the work had not 25 been done by then so, no. WATER PCB-SD0000028132 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 138 1 Q. Did you have any understanding at this 2 time about what would happen to the products that 3 were being sold to Texas Eastern? 4 A. No, not specifically. 5 Q. Did you have an understanding at this 6 time that there would be an eventual withdrawal of 7 those products? 8 A. Yes, in my own mind. As I said before 9 it was not -- didn't come out and make this as a 10 firm, positive statement. But it was implicit in the 11 way in which we were told that we would be getting 12 there eventually. 13 0. Did you convey that to anybody at Texas 14 Eastern? 15 A. I don't remember. 16 MR. ZIMMER: Are you talking about 17 during a specific time frame because Dr. Hatton was 18 in on the eventual -- 19 Q. End of 1969? 20 A. In 1971 I was involved I know because 21 I -- . 22 Q. I'm talking about 1969? 23 A. I don't know. I cannot relate it to 24 that date. 25 Q. Exhibit 27, November 6, 1969 document WATER PCB-SD0000028133 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 139 1 from R. H. Munch to W. R. Richard. Please take a 2 minute to look at it in full. It is short enough to 3 do that. My question about this relates to the 4 Aroclor 1242 which we established before was one of 5 the components of the Turbinol that was sold to Texas 6 Eastern. This is dated November 6th, 1969 and it 7 refers to the growing possibility that Aroclor 1242 8 may cause environmental pollution to an unacceptable 9 extent. Were you involved in any discussions with 10 Mr. Munch or anybody else about the growing 11 possibility that Aroclor 1242 may cause environmental 12 pollution? 13 MR. ZIMMER: Object, it assumes facts 14 not in evidence, is argumentative. I want to give 15 the memo proper context. Since it deals with Aroclor 16 1242 in application as a dielectric fluid I think in 17 fairness to the witness we should outline that. 18 Q. The question stands. 19 MR. ZIMMER: Fine. 20 A. No, I was not aware. 21 Q. Who is Mr. Munch? 22 A. Research chemist who specialized -- 23 research group leader I should 6ay. He did have a 24 group working for him. Who specialized in the area 25 of dielectric fluids. WATER PCB-SD0000028134 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 140 1 Q. What is a dielectric fluid? What's the 2 application of a dielectric fluid? 3 A. The purpose of using a dielectric fluid 4 is primarily for electrical insulation and it is used 5 in transformers and in capacitors for such purpose. 6 And it must have a series of specific properties as 7 indicated through here. That much I know about 8 dielectrics. 9 Q. Do you know whether the transformers -- 10 you referred to transformers and capacitors? 11 A. Capacitors. 12 Q. Are they generally referred to as closed 13 systems or open systems? 14 A. Closed systems. 15 Q. Okay. Page 2 second to the last 16 paragraph, did you ever hear that there was some 17 consideration of altering the distillation of Aroclor 18 1242? 19 MR. ZIMMER: With respect to the 20 contents of this memo and dielectric fluids? 21 Q. Just in general. 22 A. I cannot recal1 any discussions on that 23 subject. 24 Q. Exhibit 28. Let me ask you a foundation 25 ques tion which may -- WATER PCB-SD0000028135 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 141 1 MR. ZIMMER: Why start now? 2 Q. -- take out the necessity to talk any 3 further about this document. Did the organic 4 division cover your division as well, was functional 5 fluids part of the organic division? 6 A. The functional fluids group never 7 attained division status. We were always a section 8 under these groups, under the organic division. 9 Q. So you were a section under the organic? 10 A. Under the organic division. There was 11 one for plasticizers. There was one for a number of 12 other products. 13 Q. Okay. Then I would like to ask 14 questions about this document. So why don't you take 15 a few minutes to read it. Referring to the paragraph 16 on the first page that starts with: The division has 17 maintained an aggressive program of customer 18 education. Were you aware of any customer education 19 of Texas Eastern wtih respect to PCB's and the 20 hazards of PCB's? 21 MR. ZIMMER: At any point in time? The 22 question is vague, ambiguous in terms of time. I 23 mean this document isn't dated and once again we're 24 pulling one sentence out of context out of it. 25 Q. It's a broad question. He can give me a WATER PCB-SD0000028136 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 142 1 broad answer. 2 MR. ZIMMER: Customer education as to 3 PCB's could mean anything. Doctor, if you can answer 4 it go ahead. 5 A. I cannot give a specific answer to your 6 question. During this time frame it was discussed 7 but I cannot give you a specific answer as to what 8 was said because I don't remember. 9 Q. The PCB problem was discussed with Texas 10 Eastern during this time frame meaning 1969? . 11 A. No, I don't know when this is but 12 certainly it was discussed in the '70, '71 period. 13 Q. Okay. Do you have any spec ific 14 recollections of those discussions? 15 A. No, I do not. 16 Q. Turning to the second page under the 17 heading `Conclusions,' the sentence says: 18 It was decided that the division should 19 discontinue sales by June 1 for all uses 20 except for transformers and capacitors/ballast 21 and to NCR, for which there are no substitute 22 products. 23 Was it ever told to you that there would 24 be discontinuing of the selling of products to Texas 25 Eastern during this time period? WATER PCB-SD0000028137 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 143 1 MR. ZIMMER: What time period? The 2 document is not dated. 3 Q. Was it ever told to you in any time in 4 late 1969, early 1970? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. That the product would be discontinued? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. To Texas Eastern? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Who told you that? 11 A. Whoever my boss was at the moment. 12 Q. Okay. Do you know who Mr. Putzell is? 13 A. He was a member of the law department 14 and I believe quite high in the legal -- in fact he 15 may even have been corporate counsel at that point. 16 I just don't -- I don't know his title but I know 17 that he was one of the final people in terms of any 18 legal activities that Monsanto was involved in. 19 Q. Exhibit 2 9. I'm going to refer to the 20 Schedule for Discontinuing Aroclor Applications which 21 is on 005207. Dr. Hatton, I don't see on here that 22 gas compressor lubricants are named in terms of that 23 they're going to be a product that1s going to be 24 discontinued by July 1971. Am I wrong, am I missing 25 something here? WATER PCB-SD0000028138 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 144 1 A. I do not see them there either but this 2 does not necessarily mean that this was a complete 3 list that was ever put together. 4 Q. Do you recal1 seeing a list that 5 included the Texas Eastern lubricants? 6 A. Eventually, yes. And I cannot give you 7 a date because I don't know when I saw the list. 8 Q. Do you have a date or any memory of a 9 date when you told Texas Eastern that you would 10 discontinue selling them lubricants? 11 A. Yes, and I remember the meeting early 12 ' 71. 13 Q. Okay. Next page, if you could take a 14 minute just to read the next page. Looking at the 15 next to the last paragraph, do you recal1 hearing at 16 any time at the end of 1969 or the beginning of 1970 17 that Aroclor 1242 resisted degradation? 18 A. I don't remember hearing that statement. 19 Q. Do you recal1 just in your knowledge, 20 did you at some time learn that there were problems 21 with the biodegradability of Aroclor 1242? 22 MR. ZIMMER: If that's true. I'11 23 object that it assumes facts not in evidence. 24 A. I don't specifically remember getting 25 any communications that would say this, whether it WATER PCB-SD0000028139 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 145 1 was hearsay or not, I don't know. 2 Q. Did you have it in your knowledge, in 3 your general store of knowledge? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Just looking at the first page of the 6 document -- I don't know what this document is but it 7 appears that it may be a speech. I'm not sure. It 8 appears that it may be a speech because the second 9 paragraph says: 10 At this meeting I wish to bring you up to date 11 on the latest developments, the progress we've 12 made, and the need for modifying our strategy. 13 Did you ever hear this speech or was 14 this ever read to you? 15 MR. ZIMMER: If it was indeed a speech. 16 A. I cannot remember, I don't know. I 17 don't know. 18 Q. Have you ever seen this document? 19 A. No. 20 MR. ZIMMER: Remember, Doctor, that when 21 you're asked if you've seen a document that means 22 exclusive of what you've been shown by counsel. 23 Q. Yes. I don't want to know about your 24 discus sions with counsel. I don't want to know about 25 anything you've talked about with counsel. WATER PCB-SD0000028140 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 146 1 A. I take it that does not include seeing 2 it right now. 3 Q. No. I'm not interested in interfering 4 with the attorney-client privilege. This is Exhibit 5 No. 30. 6 MR. ZIMMER: Sooner or later she'11 show 7 you something that you've seen. 8 Q. Do you know this handwriting? 9 A. No, I do not. 10 Q. I'm going to refer you to the page that 11 starts 'The Issue,' it's Bates stamped 013375. Just 12 the phrase 'close the loop.' Did you ever hear the 13 phrase 'close the loop' in early 1970? 14 MR. ZIMMER: You must be kidding. In 15 what context? 16 Q. In any context. I don't know what close 17 the loop means. 18 MR. ZIMMER: In 1970 did anyone ever use 19 the phrase close the loop to him? 20 Q. If he can't answer it he can't answer 21 it. 22 A. I can't answer that. That's a common 23 expres sion. 24 Q. It wasn't an expression that was used in 25 Monsanto to describe pIans for how to phase out WATER PCB-SD0000028141 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 147 1 PCB's, that we're going to close the loop? 2 A. Not to my knowledge. 3 Q. So this is the first time you've ever 4 seen this in this context? 5 A. In this context, yes. 6 Q. The next page, did you ever hear of 7 MCS-1016? At the bottom of the page it's referred 8 to. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Can you tel 1 me what MCS-1016 was? 11 A. I was told that it was a product for 12 dielectric uses developed to generally replace 1242. 13 Q. Do you know if it would replace 1242 in 14 the application in gas compressor lubricants? 15 A. I do not know and I don't remember that 16 we looked into this. 17 Q. What application was it referring to? 18 A. The dielectric application. 19 MR. ZIMMER: And in the document you 20 j ust showed him it refers to caipacitors. 21 A. Specifically capacitors which is -22 Q. I know that. I'm just wondering if 23 there was broader application. I'm wondering, if you 24 know, if it wasn't considered why it wasn't 25 considered for the broader application? WATER PCB-SD0000028142 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 148 1 A. I don't know that it was considered or 2 not considered. It was developed by research. 3 Q. Did it include PCB's? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Was it a different chlorinationof PCB*s 6 than the 1242? 7 A. I am not aware of the details of the 8 development. 9 Q. Do you remember who wasresponsible for 10 the development of the 1016? 11 A. I cannot give you a name. It would 12 generally have been somebody in the functional fluid 13 research area and that could be very broad. 14 Q. Last page where it says * The Current 15 Position.' Please read that, the phrase where it 16 says: PCB's now, quote, deadly chemicals, end quote. 17 What's your reaction to that? 18 MR. ZIMMER: Don' t answer that, Doctor. 19 Q. Are you instructing him not to answer? 20 MR. ZIMMER: I am instructing him not to 21 answer. You're asking him about another document 22 that he has not only not authored but he can't 23 identify the handwriting in it. It's entirely 24 handwritten. And I'm not going to sit here and let 25 him speculate about his reaction to what somebody WATER PCB-SD0000028143 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 149 i else wrote in an undated memo when they write to . 2 themselves, PCB's now, quote, deadly chemicals. 3 Q. We don't know that. The question I'm 4 asking, if I may ask, counsel, is did you ever hear 5 in any conversations at Monsanto PCB's being referred 6 to as deadly chemicals by anybody? 7 MR. ZIMMER: That's an entirely 8 different question. You can answer that one, Doctor. 9 A. I do not remember anybody using those 10 terms. 11 MR. ZIMMER: I urge you, counsel, to get 12 to documents that Dr. Hatton either authored, was 13 copied on or has some knowledge of based upon his 14 work experience at Monsanto. 15 Q. I'll restate my earlier position which 16 is that I will get to those documents but I'm also 17 entitled to ask him questions about documents he may 18 not have seen. And he can tel1 me that he hasn't 19 seen them and that he has no knowledge of them. It 20 takes a lot of time on the transcript for you to keep 21 on reiterating your position because I'm going to 22 show him these documents. 23 MR. ZIMMER: It's 4:15. You can rest 24 assured that we're not going to stay beyond five 25 tomorrow. WATER PCB-SD0000028144 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 150 MS. WELCH: The deposition is not going 2 to go beyond five tomorrow. We have another 3 deposition on Thursday. But I am entitled to ask him 4 these questions. 5 MR. ZIMMER: This has not been a very 6 fruitful expenditure of time. 7 MS. WELCH: This has been fruitful. 8 Q. Exhibit 31 please. * MR. ZIMMER: I disagree but I think the 10 record speaks for itself in that regard. 11 A. Look at the last page and see whose 12 initials are on it. 13 Q. That's a good starting place, thank you. 14 Q. Nobody else's initials are on it. This 15 states it's a Management Plan. Have you ever seen 16 this document before? 17 A. I have not seen it. 18 Q. Would you typically say in 1969, 1970 19 get documents of management plans given the position 20 you were in? 21 A. No, I would not. 22 Q. I want you to turn to page 2 which is 23 005211. Again it's your option, counsel, if you want 24 to take the time to read the whole document but I'm 25 going to ask him questions about the portion that's WATER PCB-SD0000028145 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 151 entitled 'Objectives.' 2 MR. ZIMMER: It's going to depend on the 3 question. I mean I think the record is going to 4 speak for itself that we're talking about a ten-page 5 single-spaced document he's already indicated he 6 wasn't copied on, wouId not have been copied on and 7 didn't author. 8 Q. Why don't we just read the objectives y section. That's the section I'm going to ask 10 questions on. My only question is -- 11 MR. ZIMMER: I'm not finished, counsel. 12 Q. Have you ever heard of the return on 13 investment obj ectives of the f unctional fluids and 14 plasticizers groups? 15 A. Other than this document, anybody who 16 worked in the division knew what the division would 17 be rated on and it was return on investment, it was a 18 mathematical thing that could be easily calculated 19 and could be followed from month to month to 20 determine how well your division was doing. Now what 21 the objective was for each group, I do not know the 22 figures . 23 Q. Do you recal1 any discussion of managing 24 the PCB pollution problem without adversely affecting 25 the established return on investment objectives of WATER PCB-SD0000028146 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 152 the functional fluid group? 2 A. No, I did not know what the objectives 3 were and I did not hear about plans for doing 4 anything about it. 5 Q. Was that at a different level of 6 management than you? 7 A. Yes, it was. 8 Q. Who in the functional fluids group would 9 have been involved in that? 10 A. The business director, the top man. 11 Q. Do you have any recollection of who that 12 was? 13 A. Probably Bergen as I said previously. 14 Q. Did I ask you whether he's still alive? 15 A. Yes, and I think I indicated I don't 16 know because I've not been in contact with him for a 17 number of years. 18 Q. Exhibit 32, this is a document that is 19 entitled 'What Could We Expect From This Program.' 20 The second and third page -- even though it's not 21 dated the second and third page seem to indicate that 22 it addresses issues in early 1970 because it talks 23 about determining something in March 1970 and it 24 talks about a 1970 budget. I'm just going to ask you 25 about certain charts on here. WATER PCB-SD0000028147 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 153 1 MR. ZIMMER: Our silence is not intended 2 to accept that characterization but I should also 3 point out the document isn't necessarily entitled 4 What Could We Expect From This Program. That's a 5 heading on the first page. Each page that follows 6 has its own heading. 7 Q. Thank you for that clarification, 8 counsel. Bates stamp No. 021546, the page is 9 entitled 'Fluids Business Threatened, 1970 Budget.* 10 Were lubricants that were sold to Texas Eastern 11 classified as industrial fluids? 12 MR. ZIMMER: In terms of this chart or 13 in Dr. Hatton's mind? 14 Q. In his mind. 15 MR. ZIMMER: Because he didn't author 16 this chart. Once again any implication from there 17 that these definitions are the same is not a fair 18 one. 19 Q. In your mind? 20 A. Industrial fluids would be the most 21 applicable of anything here. 22 MR. ZIMMER: Doctor, don't relate it to 23 this chart though because you don't know what's in 24 the author's mind. She's asking in your mind was 25 Texas Eastern's fluid an industrial one. WATER PCB-SD0000028148 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 154 A. In my mind industrial fluids would have 2 included the products used at Texas Eastern. 3 Q. Okay. And were you aware, did anybody 4 ever discuss with you the fact that there were 5 $4/000,000 in sales of industrial fluids that were 6 threatened? 7 MR. ZIMMER: If that was indeed a fact. 8 The question assumes facts not in evidence. 9 A. I do not remember specifically that 10 number. I know that -- I just do not remember that 11 number. 12 Q. Do you remember there being a general 13 concern that a large amount of business was 14 threatened at this time? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And who conveyed this concern to you? 17 A. I don't remember which member of 18 management it was. 19 Q. But you do remember that it was a 2 0 concern at the time? 21 A. It was a general concern of the 22 management group. 23 Q. The next page, the Recommended Action 24 Plan, paragraph 2, it says: Notify al1 Aroclor 25 customers of PCB problem and relabel containers - WATER PCB-SD0000028149 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 155 1 within sixty days. Now again this document is not 2 spec ifically dated although it seems to stem from the 3 early 1970 period. Were you told in early 1970 that 4 within sixty days that you would have to notify your 5 customers of the PCB problem? 6 A. I cannot confirm that. 7 Q. Were you told that you had to relabel 8 containers? y A. No. 10 Q. Is there anyone else who would have been 11 told besides you in terms of relationship with Texas 12 Eastern? 13 A. The relabeling of containers would have 14 been the function of a manufacturing group and a 15 labeling group and this would have been taken care of 16 by actually being done. 17 Q. Do you know if that was done? 18 A. I don't specifically know of my own 19 knowledge. 20 Q. And how about contacting the customers, 21 was there -- if Texas Eastern were going to be 22 notified within sixty days of this document is there 23 anyone else besides you who management should have 24 gone to to talk to Texas Eastern? 25 MR. ZIMMER: Cal Is for speculation but WATER PCB-SD0000028150 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 156 1 if you know, Doctor. 2 A. I don't know who would have been. I 3 cannot give you an answer to that question. 4 Q. Turning to the I believe it's about 5 three pages later where it says Sources of Fluids 6 Pollution. It says application and intensity of 7 pollution. And then it has a list starting with 8 industrial fluids and ending at producing plants. y Did you have any kind of understanding that 10 industrial fluids were the greatest intensity of n pollution at this time which again we're assuming is 12 early 1970? 13 A. The term industrial fluids included 14 things other than Turbinols. 15 Q. Right, I know it does. 16 A. These would have been broken down in 17 various places in this chart. If this chart had been 18 made Turbinols, Pydrauls, OS numbers and a few other 19 things would have been applied. I did not make the 20 decision to put this where it is. 21 Q. So you're telling me that you disagree 22 with this chart? 23 A. Yes, I do. 24 Q. Why do you disagree with the chart? 25 A. Because I believe that certain of these WATER PCB-SD0000028151 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 157 1 applications fall down at least under the heat 2 transfer, equal to or under the heat transfer. 3 Q. In other words, you would rate heat 4 transfer as a higher intensity pollutant? 5 A. About similar to turbine lubrication. 6 Q. Before we begin on this, Dr. Hatton, do 7 you know what the corporate management committee was? 8 A. Corporate management committee was one s> that existed at the highest levels of the company and 10 was concerned with actually making decisions that 11 related to management of the whole company. 12 Q. So I assume that the people who are 13 listed here are the top managers of the company, is 14 that a correct assumption? 15 A. You're right. 16 Q. We know who Mr. Minckler is. Who was 17 Rodney Harris? 18 A. I have no idea. 19 Q. How about Mr. Kelly? 20 A. I do not know. 21 Q. How about Mr. Smith, T. K. Smith? 22 A. T. K. Smith by 1970 would have moved 23 from the organic division I think into some other 24 activity but he was again at a very high level and 25 came up the company through marketing. WATER PCB-SD0000028152 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 158 1 Q. How about Mr. Ehlers? 2 A. I don't remember ever -- don't remember 3 the name at all. 4 Q. Turning to the next page. If you want 5 to take time to read this document go ahead. I'm 6 going to ask you a few very specific questions. 7 Starting with the discontinuing the sale of -- first 8 of all, have you ever seen this document? 9 A. No, I have not. 10 Q. Did the corporate management committee 11 ever make reports to somebody on your level at 12 meetings that you were present at? 13 MR. ZIMMER: That's a mouthful. 14 A. To say never, I don't know. 15 Q. Did you ever hear a report of this 16 meeting? 17 MR. ZIMMER: One that you can answer. 18 A. By whom? 19 Q. By anyone? 20 A. That broadens the question. As to 21 whether my boss was told and he told me -- and I do 22 not remember a specific discussion. 23 Q. You don't recal1 a specific meeting? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Do you recall knowing or hearing at WATER PCB-SD0000028153 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 159 1 about this time which is May 1970 that the sale of 2 Aroclor 1242 would be discontinued to NCR? 3 A. I remember hearing this. 4 Q. Do you remember what the application was i 5 of Aroclor 1242 to NCR? 6 A. Yes, it was in carbonless carbon paper. 7 Q. Do you know why the decision was made to 8 discontinue the sale of 1242 to NCR but not to Texas Eastern at this time? 10 A. Because the application of carbonless 11 carbon paper was about as open using terms we've used 12 before as any application could be because every 13 secretary in the country would tear off the sheets 14 and put them in the file. Also put them in the 15 incinerator. 16 Q. I want you to look at the various little 17 bullet points here and read through those and I want 18 to ask you a question about the overal1 bullet points 19 at the end. 20 A. What do you mean by bullet points? 21 Q. The 1ittie dash. It says discontinued. 22 A. Thank you. 23 Q. My question to you is given your 24 understanding do the sales to Texas Eastern or 25 Transwestern fit into any of these descriptions, the WATER PCB-SD0000028154 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 160 I bullet points? 2 MR. ZIMMER: Let's not have any 3 presumption of the question that he's aware of sales 4 to Transwestern because he already testified that he 5 was not. 6 Q. Let's restrict to it Texas Eastern, 7 that's fair. 8 MR. ZIMMER: I'm sorry, the question? 9 Q. Do they fit into any of these 10 categories? 11 MR. ZIMMER: If he can presume what -- 12 as he interprets the categories. 13 Q. That's correct. Obviously he didn't 14 write the document. As he interprets the categories. 15 A. I wouId presume that they would fall 16 into the general timing under the third bullet down 17 the list. 18 Q. Which is rep lace all non-biodegradable 19 chlorinated biphenyls in hydraulic applications? 20 A. Yes, because to include these here 21 correctly you should make a separate bulletin for 22 that application. And you asked me to assume where 23 they would go. Again I would assume that that's 24 where they would be. 25 MR. ZIMMER: Doctor, the danger here is WATER PCB-SD0000028155 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 161 1 that she doesn't want you to assume anything nor that 2 you have to fit them in under one of these 3 categories. 4 Q. I could just as well say that they 5 aren't fit in. I don't want you to squeeze them in. 6 I mean I was under the impression that gas 7 compressors are different than hydraulic applications 8 and so they don't fit into these bullets? 9 A. No, they do not fit in here as such. 10 Q. Okay. Did you have any other knowledge 11 as of May 197 0 , independent knowledge, that there 12 would be termination of sales to Texas Eastern? That 13 you can recal1? 14 A. I don't remember, no, I don't remember. 15 Q. Maybe when we get to some of the 16 subsequent documents a little later in time it will 17 help. 18 MR. ZIMMER: Subsequent or substantive? 19 Q. They're all substantive. Exhibit 34, 20 Draft Letter to U. K. Aroclor Customers. Have you 21 ever seen this document before? 22 A. No, I have not. 23 Q. Do you recall ever sending a document 24 1ike this to Texas Eastern? 25 A. No, I do not. WATER PCB-SD0000028156 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 162 1 Q. In the 1970 time frame? 2 A. No, I do not recall. 3 Q. Do you know if anybody else sent a 4 letter 1ike this to Texas Eastern? 5 A. I do not, no. 6 Q. Who is Jack Garrett? 7 A. Jack Garrett also worked for Dr. Kelly 8 in medical department and I believe he joined at a 9 later date. 10 Q. Do you know if he's still alive? 11 A. I believe he is. 12 Q. And who is Mr. Clay? 13 A. Carl Clay, he's field salesman and I 14 assume must have been assigned to Texas Eastern at 15 one time - or not to Texas Eastern but to that 16 territory. 17 Q. Did you have any contact with him ever? 18 A. Over the years, yes, on many products. 19 Q. In relationship to Texas Eastern did you 20 have contact with him? 21 A. I don't remember a specific call report 22 or visit with him. 23 Q. Exhibit 35, did you have knowledge as of 24 the time this was written which was February 19th, 25 1970 of a request from Carl Clay to discuss the WATER PCB-SD0000028157 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 163 1 toxicity of Turbinol 153 with Texas Eastern? 2 A. I was generally aware, yes. 3 Q. Where did you get that general knowledge 4 from? 5 A. I do not remember the source of the 6 general knowledge but I do know that a request was 7 sent over to medical. 8 Q. Do you know -- did you have knowledge 9 that medical was holding the request? 10 MR. ZIMMER: What do you mean by 11 holding? 12 Q. I don't know. It says holding in here. 13 MR. ZIMMER: We don't have the author of 14 this here so I want to know what you mean by holding. 15 Q. Let's start with that -- you said that 16 they had a request, Carl Clay sent over a request. 17 So I assume that they had it. 18 MR. ZIMMER: He said he was generally 19 aware that some request had been made by Texas 20 Eastern. 21 Q. To the medical department. Were you 22 aware that that request was being held in the sense 23 that it was not immediately responded to? i 24 A. No. I do not remember being aware of 25 that information. WATER PCB-SD0000028158 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 164 1 Q. Do you know if it was responded to? 2 A. I do not know that 3 Q. Do you know who would know whether it 4 was responded to? 5 MR. ZIMMER: Take a guess if you know. 6 I mean that's what she's asking you to do. 7 Q. The question speaks for itself. I'm not 8 asking you to guess. 9 A. Since the request was generated by Carl 10 Clay I would assume it would have gone back with at 11 least a copy to him. 12 Q. The next point that I'd like to ask you 13 is the question that's raised by Mr. Garrett or is it 14 Dr. Garrett or Mr.? 15 A. Mr. Garrett. 16 Q. Mr. Garrett. The question is, quote: 17 The question that arises is do we tell this 18 customer that this product is composed of 19 principally PCB with some phosphate ester and 20 then give the customer the toxicity and safe 21 handling characteristics? 22 My question to you is had you ever 23 previ ously told the customer, namely Texas Eastern, 24 or anybody at Texas Eastern, that the product was 25 composed of principally PCB with some phosphate WATER PCB-SD0000028159 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 165 1 ester? 2 A. I believe that this was discussed in 3 various discussions at various times. 4 Q. Can you identify any of those 5 discussions? 6 A. Not spec ifically. I made many, many 7 calIs on Texas Eastern and I do not remember which 8 one of them it would have been. 9 Q. Do you recall anyone you told that it 10 was composed of PCB with phosphate ester? 11 A. Since I can ' t come back with the exact 12 time it was I can only indicate that Ollie Fletcher 13 was my primary contact at that time. 14 Q. Did you also give the customer at that 15 point the toxicity and safe handling characteristics? 16 A. That material was given to him before he 17 got the first sample of material. 18 Q. So it would have been the printed -- 19 whatever the printed material was that the company 20 put out? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Not any side conversations that you had 23 with him in particular? 24 A. He may have asked me a question and I 25 may have answered it but I don't remember a specific WATER PCB-SD0000028160 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 166 J discus sion. 2 Q. Do you know were the general PCB 3 information program was? 4 A. Not as a title but I do not know what 5 Jack is referring to here specifically in terras of 6 information program. 7 Q. Was there a general PCB information 8 program in capital letters that everybody knew about? 9 A. It was not in cap ital letters to the 10 best of my knowledge and we have seen many exhibits 11 over here which would certainly indicate that 12 Monsanto had a general PCB program. 13 Q. Do you have any knowledge of what 14 happened as a consequence of this memo? 15 A. No, I do not. 16 MS. WELCH: That's all I have for today. 17 The deposition is adjourned until tomorrow morning. 18 I thank you very much for your time today. I know 19 it's been a long and arduous day. 20 [Proceedings were adjourned for the day] 21 22 23 24 25 WATER PCB-SD0000028161