Document G53KMqqEMX6wDZnJNkrgDdwpx

FILE NAME: Union Carbide (UC) DATE: 1956 DOC#: UC400 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Published Conference Presentation - 21st Annual Meeting, IHF - Health Problems Involved in the Manufacture, Sale, and Use of Toxic Materials 21t ANNUAL MEETING INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE FOUNDATION / i.7 fr -yf Sr" / s - ' Vs' < \y j <y ' i n Transactions Bulletin No. 30 innnnnMic INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE FOUNDATION OF AMERICA <100 FIFTHAVENUE MELLON INSTITUTE PITTSBURGH 13, PA. \r-vi e r m i questions on health problems involved in the manufacture, sale and use To'risht- Dr L'c Te-hnteaf Conference were leading a u t h o r i t i c ^ McGee. Medical Director, H ercules Powder Compa y D n P W. General Counsel of General Development Koppers C ompany, I n c . , H. S. Ba.le D*p y. en TM a i D e p a rtm e n t, Union Carbide and Carbon s hi E S I , t s ::.f' \d v ts tr to the Foundation: and V. P. Ahearn, Executive Secretary, National Industrial Sand Asso zz t> a c?Or o - * * z P yX. 3" o -o2 , rt X ^ Pc2r. 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We hope that there will be floor discussion even if we haven't answered all the written questions, because we want to establish the town hall atmosphere and to give each of you an opportunity to ask a question, to make a contribution, to challenge a member of the panel, or do any thing else that your democratic instinct suggests you do. The first question which 1 am going to ask the panel is "How does one define 'health problems'? What is meant by `toxic ma terial'?'' 1 am going to ask Dr. McGee to answer that question DR McGEE. In a broad sense, one might say that any deviation from optimum physical, mental, and social well-being is a health problem That definition of health as the optimum state of mental, physical and social adjustment has been batted about for a number of years i believe for the purpose of this afternoon's contribution, how ever the health problems involved should be limited to those devia tions from optimum health which occur as a result of an exposure in manufacturing, sale and use of something which is called " toxic material " As the title is stated, of course, any deviation in health of a worker would react on his work in output, and so forth, m a broad .sense But 1 believe the meaning here is m a more limited sense of those d evia tions from the optimum physical, mental, and social ad justments which result from the contact with this thing called " toxic material. '' Passing then to the second part of the question, "What is toxic material?" we are m trouble immediately I find very few people, outside of those who are concerned with deleterious substances as they'- affect man. who have a concept of the large range in degree and character of toxicity It is a word which means what anybody wants it to mean Unfortunately.'to substitute for " toxic, ' " poisonous," "dele tenons" or what have you, gets us no place. It so happens llial every thing with which man is m contact ran lie troublesome and "losic" if lie gets too much Those things that we consider esseiiti.il In lilr, including food, vitamins, minerals, and water, ran hr "(n\ir" In man I believe Dr !!enr\ Xnivtli. .11 , defined"(<>\ie" simple as a matin nl too much II >\e keep that in mind we will leali/e llien llial we i'll until en eu nisei ilie a cert,tin group o! m.ileii.ils and , ,i\ the e ais 111\ ie olliets air mil lov'r [ mini ailmil iml ;m ihu In Dipp ian help us line, tlicit, for purposes of orientation, we must have some arbitrary definition of what is toxic l)lv. ZAPP I can only express my agreement with the remarks that D r McGee has made The term ``toxic material1' is subject In very in,my interpretations by different people The great difficulty fhat we have in talking about them and in drawing up laws and pm ordures to govern the use of toxic material revolves about flic deli mtion of toxic material. Dr. McGee was quoting to you just a few' moments ago from the report of the Council of Toxicology of The American Medieiil Association, m which are reviewed the various definitions of poison, (The Council found that there was no uniformity.) As a matter of fact, it states that there is no uniformity of legal or scientific opinion as to what constitutes a poison. And then, since a precise definition that would til ail eimunt stances is not possible, the Committee felt that any substance flmf when improperly used may produce harm by chemical action, should be provided with an appropriate cautionary label or statement, m cetera. So. here, we have not only difficulty in defining vhal we .... an by toxic material, but also a concern on the part, of tins group for warning of the consequences of misuse. 1 think wiiaf we rcalh im-un 1o talk about this afternoon is more properly defined as hazards, that is, the probability that an injury will occur in the munufneiuir. mile, oi use of these materials. MODERATOR AHEAKN Thank you very much, 1>r Zapp N o w , ! move on to the second question, unless at, this stage a memt>i*t oi (he panel wishes to add something to what these (wo gmlIctuett lui\c already said Von football men will notice I am playing a seven man lineup on (his platform. I am going to ;isk my right laekle. Dr Diirlniiuh. (Ins question ``Do you think there is any basic difference in safely as applied 1o people in research and development in eouipaii'iou with people involved in regular production operations?" D u ! '>A \ '' I M A N ! l i n n' s lint, i p i e s l i o n in l lie n i s i p i n e e l e f e r a I n : ........... (o s a f e l y In t hat r e s p e c t , I will t r y to pm;;i nil o p m l o l i I limit (line is a eolisidei able difference m the snl'rt\ (lint o n e leom ileis in (he laboratory and Dial wlueli one eiienu ii lei n >n die plod In a plan! m Ilie i re nini prodnelion operal mil, il in pim'iililf* Ioi l Io' ei i " i in v i , in lit (, (k a p i o e c s s d o w n m i n m a n y <<mi p< u n ii I | in e| n in I lild\ (lie e p a i l s Im m Ih r poml of \K'W of safely , (lie i h n o | e i d "!' lilcill i in In 'ii h i11| iIel \ IIe;'II,|Iill d 1 (lllllll lllele Ii mil \ eI V much difficulty in this, and it is rather rarely that we have accidents of any significant, nature in processes that are continually operating in a repetitive manner. I think that is rather easy to control, and it is more feasible to train the operators in safety measures. Now. in contrast with that is a research laboratory The men in the laboratory are frequently working; in unexplored and unknown areas They may or may not. and probably will not, know-' the toxico logical or hazardous explosive properties of the materials with which they are working or of the materials which might lie formed as a result of their researches. So. here, you have only a few of the general rules of safety that apply. I think a great deal of it in the case of the research man depends entirely upon him I think his approach to it must be one of safety consciousness. I think he has to really live safely and to be effective this has to be a part of his background, a part of his disposition MODERATOR AHEARN Thank you, Dr. Bachman. Now. Mr. Hatch. MR. HATCH i certainly agree with everything he said except the second point attitude Certainiv, it is true that the people who arc doing the basic sesearch and development work should incorporate into their day-to-day thinking the needs with respect to safety to a greater degree than people out on the production line. However, it has been my experience, and 1 am sure many of the rest of us here have had the same experience, that very often we find it just the other way around The man who is doing research is so wrapped up in his i search objective that he is inclined not to give very much considera tion fo these other matters. 1 can recall visiting laboratories where, for example, they were using such a well-known agent as benzol and were slopping it around like water. At the same time, they might be quite concerned over the toxicity of the new and exciting material that they are developing So, T am sure it is important to make sure that in the course of re search and development, these questions are constantly raised, but 1 don't, think we can rightly assume that the research people are always going to raise them MODERATOR AHEARN. Thunk you. Ted 1 want lo remind the pane! thal oihei contributions are always welcomed MR B A 1 H E Ma v I i n t e r j e c t o n e c o m m e n t 1' T h e v e r y lisltnc lion (hat bot h g e n I l emon ha ve m a d e hot ween t h e r e s e a r c h o p e r a t i o n a n d pr od net on o p e r a t i o n s u g g e s t s I hr d e s i r a b i l i t y ol a s l n- l i l l y dl l [ r i r n l a p p i o a e h to llio s, i i r l \ p i o g i u m wi t h rcspeel to o p o i a h o n In the production operation, you are dealing with guarding against, the individual, isolated accidents m the course of production, whereas, in the research operation, you are concerned with the catastrophe proln letn Therefore, your program m that respect should be designed to provide for the type of action required m the event those catas trophes occur. MODERATOR, AHEARN Thank you very much, Mr. Haile The next question gives us a chance to break out our legal talent up here " Does not the obligation of the insured under a Products Ijin bility Policy, particularly his agreement not to settle with a claimant, nor to admit liability, interfere with a manufacturer's relations with his customers and with the public?" Mr. Baile. you can be the first one to answer that quest ion MR BAILE I believe the simple answer to the question is that it should not. I think at the same time you have to recognize Mini there is an apprehension on the part of some people that it does In order that it shall not interfere with customer and public relalme.. I think it is of utmost importance that there be understanding on tinpart of both the insurer and the insured, and also that th ee be tinutmost cooperation between the two. The basic understanding that has to exist is to recognize tin- dm tmetion between customer complaints on one hand and chums on tinother Customer complaints must he a concern of the insured, Ihr manufacturer himself He must be free to deal wirii castonn-r com plaints as you deal in business relations, without necessarily In-iii}concerned with the legal basis of the claim or the legal [>ossiliilit ii--, that might arise out of your action On the other hand, it is most important on tlx- purl of the in surer to recognize that the insured must he free to act in Ihat, wav that he must he free to deal with a customer in order tli.it In- will have a satisfied customer Since that is the interest of tin- in.-muI'mturer, he can't, restrain that, action in order to prolee! Ins legal pm,i (ion The interest, of the insurer and the insured must he iw i^ii iz.ed as an identical interest They an- noi i wo parties, they are mn- parly sen mg oile aspect o! tile insured s business, winch is Ii is iclntion in `lie customers insofar as they are aiTei led by liis pendnet s I h o p e I d o n ' t . s o u n d i d e a l i s t i c s p e a k i n g a s a n i nsi i r a a e<- m a n a n t h a t s u b j e c t , b e c a u s e I f l u n k it is t h e a c t mi l p r a c t i c e (it e u T i c o m p a i n oi s t a n d i n g t o o p e i a t e i n tin- h a n d b a g <d p r n d i u t * . t > ti 111<| \ I.unis in p i r <i s r ! \ IId e i I( i ciici u 11ii Il ia! u a \ 1! i! e, d o i n ' i l i a! u a v the i imip.iia , illations with then llicie m an t i n p i d d l e Mm 1 11 i OI I M ' s MODERATOR AHEARN Thank you very much, Mr Oviatt. Mr. Baile MR. BAILE . I think in answering the first of the two questions, you have to make a distinction between chemicals which are toxic as a normal attribute of the chemical itself on the one hand, and on the other hand the chemical which is toxic as a result of some dangercreating defect that exists in the chemical which would normally be harmless. Now'. I think Mr. Oviatt's answer is primarily directed to the first class where yon are dealing with the chemical which is naturally toxic. Under those circumstances, when the purchaser is given full knowledge of the toxic character of it and the dangers that are in herent. or the purchaser, without your telling him, has that knowl edge, I don't think there is any liability on the part of the manu facturer. However, where the toxic character of the chemical is created by some defect in the manufacturing process, then I think there is liability on the part of the manufacturer. I don't think we are going to permit manufacturers to insulate their own carelessness in the manufacture of their product against consumers by the intervention of a middle man. MR. OVIATT- Mr. Baile, after all. the question was what is the liability of the manufacturer of a toxic chemical Now a chemical is either toxic or not toxic, is that right? MR. BAILE : Not according to my friend at the beginning of the meeting. MR. OVIATT : If a chemical becomes toxic because of the de fect. that isn 't the subject of our meeting today, is it? I thought we are just speaking of materials that are inherently toxic without any defect producing toxicity. MODERATOR AHEARN: I believe it would be helpful to the audience. Mi Baile, if wc had more pointed d'senssinri of the second half of this question because it seems to me it is a question which most people in this audience are very much interested in Will you point your remarks specifically to that question9 JV1 K, H A I L E A s M r O v i a t t p o i n t e d o u t , t h e b a s i c e o n s i d c i at m n i n i m p o s i n g l i a b i l i t y u p o n a iii.i i h i I.k-Ii i m t o '' a c h e m i c a l , w h i c h in i ts n a t u r e is t o x i c , is ( l i e o b l i g a t i o n t h a t is i m p o s e d u p o n him t o d i s s c n u i nl i e t h e k n o w l e d g e t h a t h e h a s o f tin- i I . i i c m i s ( ii 1 he pi I r c l i a s e I N o w , lie, i e d \ m e t h o d el doi ng tii.it m most r'.s! moos s t hi oi i gh l abel i ng I vu; I the product with an appropriate warning, stating prohibitions against particular use and providing an antidote in the event harm is rn countered. Having done that, there is not much more he can do. If, therefore, he meets that requirement--puts an adequate warn ing on his product--the unwillingness of an ultimate user to lain' advantage of the knowledge that has been made available (o Inm, either refusing to read it or failing to understand that nliicli r< clearly understandable does not create a liability. On the coni ears, it constitutes on the part of the consumer, the party injured, a I'anli which would bar any right of recovery that he should have agamsl a manufacturer. MR. OVIATT On the other hand, what you are really sav me is that the manufacturer does not have to police his customers MR. BAILE I think that is a fair statement. MODERATOR AHEARN I believe the audience appirnaioH that additional contribution from both of you By the way, I forgot to say in opening this meeting Ilia I al Ilie request of the panel, I want to make it clear that the members <d tin panel are speaking only for themselves as individuals and an- n<>( in be regarded as committing their companies in any was-. I llimh \\c may assume that they and their companies are fairly (dose logrlln-r We will go on to the next question now 'On wlial way ran Hie producer of a toxic substance aid in securing ils safe use by etlm a tion, research, and development of control measures' '' Mr llalrli MR. HATCH We agreed m a preliminary panel iiierlmg ilna morning that this question answers itself' The poini is. Iimv ran we get the producer to recognize and accept Ins responsibility'.' We have many examples in which (he niantif.icluivr.s of lone substances have recognized and assumed responsdiilily m (Ins iviprrl even to the extent of requiring the ciislomer to show evidence in ml vanee that he has made adequate provisions for (lie s.ife lininllme n! Ihe material before they will supply ll (o Inin I recall when I was wifh the New Vnt k laihor Depart inml llmi one company which was producing and d isl n bill mg a liipill.v to\n aialerial required e\cr\ lofenl in! eusloiuor m New Void fo gel Ilm approval of (he Slale 1<11 Ilnur proposed ronlrol In llir cnee of .iiiollier Iiimi substance one of our large i linn iea I companies Inin -<rl up an rlnbor.iir picigi.im o' <<iur.i Iion ul 111< li!Ii!i:aI<- eoiiMiiuoi nl lie lit.11el'l, 11, in rm'og 1111aili ol Ilie \er\ s111[><>>1.1111 I'nel Ilot I Wlllonil mlei 111.1(. i, lIr(\ llleii-,l||,, ,<IIol I\ ifjf'lI(IiI!11 , ur Ii' lx1111li I In lend! I u <MI!([ IiU< [ct I11ft !11 Iin 1.1.( II' ni I1i1d\ i Io| nn( li I "I i i>(i| i >{ *v measures There is a. particular responsibility and opportunity here on the part of the producer because, as I said earlier, the hazard can be magnified or minimized for a given toxic material by the manner in which the process equipment operates. It is the responsibility of the producer of such materials to take part m The development of safe-process equipment so that he will be in a position to advise his customer on the kind of equipment in which he is to use this toxic material. MODERATOR AH EARN Thank you. Ted Dr Bachman. DR BACHMAN: I can only add to Mr. Hatch's remarks by call ing attention to an action one company is taking. They bring in the customer's employees who are going to use this material and give the employees of the customer a course in the handling of it Now this, I think, is an excellent approach when you get to extremely hazard ous conditions I don't know of anything that you can do beyond that MODERATOR AHEARN Now we come to two questions which the panel believes should be grouped together also ``What pro cedures should be followed to determine whether any of the plant personnel are abnormally sensitive to toxic materials. In conjunction with that "How is a health problem to be anticipated? Recognized? Proved' ''D r McGee DR McGEE : In general, there are certain principles which some of us feel should be followed In the first place, we must know as much a*- we can about the biological action of the material concerned We like to know how it can affect the animal with which we are primarily concerned There may be a species variation, such as the rabbit story Ted Hatch men tioned The full story of biological action involves some understand ing of the molecular structure, action at a cellular level: the details of the chemical, metabolic and other changes brought about m the body, to the extent that oui research methods and our undeistanding of metabolism of the body allows us to define those things. Secondly, Hem the shandjmmt of man the worker t is quite essential that we know- who m the plant has a deviation from his optimum state of health, when, where and whv We are not able to lecogmze or anticipate a health problem unless we know v hat 1o look !or, and actually do look pel mdieallv at this ciucial and continuing e\pel iinenl m \v)n<b Ihe work'd is involved To accomplish Hint, we m o s ! know ulml Ills sit mil ion he.i ll Invise is wIn n he si.iMs (o voik (iio'oio \ i l o s u 1 e ) ,111(1 : i t mleivels j tel e,i ( f el I 11., ;i I, ,i l , i i g c j 1!: n , I u > <11 111l; , i n / . i i i ( m s i 11 i n i ' l l Oi I M . 11 i I u I I `ir.s i when using a new material, examine the worker at rather f r e q u e n t intervals until they define for themselves 1. That the average person does well under the eireiinistmu'i'i and the control situation that exists at the plant; and 2 That m a sufficient experience thev have not demonstrated mi unusual sensitivity. I refer not only to the entire group of allergies, hut to sonic of IIn' idiosyncrasies which are not too well understood A part of this recognition of a hazard involves other than hash* knowledge, orientation and thinking about it day by day A re.spnu sible individual reviews some of the possibilities which may lx* ovn looked and cheeks and double checks to see if they are actually om it ring If you don't look, 1 will assure you that the experience of ......I of us is that you can miss them until they force themsel \ cs mi you By looking carefully for an untoward reaction you may find it earlier than otherwise. MODERATOR AIIEARN Thank you. Now, Dr. Bachman. DR BACHMAN. Once again I am in a position of backup unm with very little to say on the subject, because I think- Dr. Ab-tiee h,r: pretty much said what can be said. I do note that the point at wlm h most of the conditions arise or appear is at the start of a new phiiil I think it is only by following the points as made hv Dr \ir(,Vc flint one can discover or uncover the abnormal sensitivity of a *nnn The only thing that I know of that could be done is (o m um '* llu* man from the action and pray that he doesn't get ivor.se MODERATOR AHEARN . Thank you. Dr. Bachman. Mr l i n t e l , MR HATCH*. I would like to add to wind Dr. !Uc<i*c smd In addition to the continuing observations on the nmn Un* (In* purpui.e <if identifying a problem area, it is equally essential that fln-rc be pond lei studies on exposure. The ultimate purpose is to mm pan* the one with the other. So don't forget that, it is the two together, the mini and the environment, that have to be studied nmtmmuisli m eider to reveal significant relationships With mechanization and automation the m.uulriumrr people in a plant become more and more important Then* are more of them in proportion to production men and difficult problem*, aieie with respect to them because their exposures are so v.n ird and Uncertain Tims, systematic and continuing studies a re even iiimi* impoi |imi D l t Z \ I *i * I i ( 1p i 1*! i *H m. i i i e | should like to com men 1 on a ( i o n 11in t i- t h a t n , , c. ' \ < a r i ( \\ ( !<! << I ! In- n i n e n n i a 11\ . o n tive individual by some sort of screening test9 For dermatitis, for example, why not a patch test before be is put into contact with the suspected material on his job? Generally speaking, we do not recommend this procedure I be lieve one of the biggest scale attempts at this sort of thing was the testing of volunteers with mustard gas at the beginning of World War II. A great many were tested m an effort to determine individual variations in sensitivity One consequence of this program was that some of the men were sensitized to mustard gas and therefore reacted abnormally whenever they came m contact with small concentrations So, it is not a practical procedure to weed out the hypersensitive by a preliminary testing program if we are dealing with a sensitizer. The other comment is that we can anticipate certain types of difficulty For example, suppose we are dealing with a chemical that produces kidney injury It would not be wise to expose a man who has only one kidney; he might, very well be abnormally sensitive And that brings up the importance of an adequate, preplacement medical examination and a classification of a man as fit or unfit for a certain type of exposure. DR. McGEE: May 1 add one thing which I think is important? It is the absolute necessity of a critical attitude m tying down the diagnosis. I know of a few areas where it is more important to crossexamine a diagnosis and prove it to the extent that it is possible to prove it than in occupational disease. The very act of having a high index of suspicion when supervising an operation with a potential hazard sometimes leads to false diagnoses that can be troublesome I am reminded of the incident of the plant physician who was aware that a chemical could be a sensitizer of the skin and lead to a dermatitis He showed me a case of a very stubborn dermatitis, stub born because the man had been removed from the exposure for six months and still had the skin lesions I was visiting the plant at the time I had a hunch of a different diagnosis when I saw the m an's lesions, partly because I was not expecting contact dermatitis, as was the plant physician who lives with the problem every day I asked the patient if theic were members cf his family who had similar skin trouble There were two members who had similar complaints The diagnosis proved to be scabies for all three of the patients M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N T h a n k y ou v e i y much We wi l l go on to the next q u e s t i o n `' '' D o e s the usual P r o d u c t s L i a b i li ty P o l i c y c o v e r a m ,11(1 all d a l n h t v that m a y he imposed upon a uiamita,' t m <u for <1,ninnies i n s ul t in g ironi the use o'' his p i o d u c t 9 M It U A H . E ( i ii i n K i !u , ms , w i ; o ( iia i 111i'st uui is ol n ' mi s I \ >io i DGO I First of all. it does not cover any liability in excess of limits that are provided in the policy. Second, it does not cover the liability Uni I might be imposed upon a manufacturer for damage to the produei itself That liability is excluded in the normal policy. Third, nnwl product liability policies are written on what is called " sternlent basis." They cover liability imposed upon the manufacturer I'm damages arising out of the use of a product, caused by accident. A m dent is used there in the sense of some event which is identifiable in point of time and place of occurrence, as distinguished from ndveme effects which are cumulative over a long period of time or over a givul amount of space. For that reason, it is very' important, and purlieu larly when you are considering the exposure of a manufacturer I n liability resulting from toxic effects of the products, thal you keep in mind that a policy' which is written on the usual accident basis is imi a satisfactory policy for your purposes In that instance, \ou should be certain that your policy is written on what insurance men rlimr' to call " occurrence basis.'' as distinguished from an " accidriil b;r.r. " I thing in one other instance the fact that it is on an .ireulmi basis is important, because that also is designed to exclude imv coverage of the results of business decisions that might be made, If r pretty difficult to illustrate that in a ease of produces 1 filial, if e, more apparent in the case of general liability policies Yon t.-do- the road contractor who has two methods of tearing up .in areu " ik method is a little cheaper for him, but it involves exposing surround ing properties to damage by shaking or noise or something like ilml The other method, which might cost him a little bd more money, would avoid that With that knowledge, he proceeds 10 follow (1,< lew. rx pensive method That is a business decision the com puny bus m.idr MR. ,T C W ATERS - May I ask one question as !<> find Win do not insurance carriers write policies on a broader basis so they pel beyond the concept of accidents? MR BAILE 1 think to answer that quest ion \ nil ll.l \ r In 111l| I'l out with the premise that t h e insurance company, if it could, would be very happy to write, policies on a completely broad banns, Tiny would be v e i v 'nappy to insuie Ihe total Jmbdil.V of U.dunliy T o du Ibid, of course, we would .have lo receive the total income of each com pany individually, which you would be unwilling la p.ir by w/iy nl premium Therefoio, if, is (lie question cd lial.i lie in/r tin- i isk llud ,Vuu have been exposed to a g a i n s t wind you me willing to pa \ for, imf noeess,11 d y willing, buf W'll.il \ i m <an reason.-| Iil\ pilV for iso ll is a q u e s l i o n ol i s o l a l u i f l l i ose t ur / u I <1-, u lilt'll a r e i noal <a m in o n !<> Mi d n -1M ;'i i n i i ! h a n d i u a - i l i e f Ik m m i d >-\ el ni l i u p I lie specific hazards of a particular company or industry which are sub jected to a much greater hazard than any other part of that industry or any other industry. The second answer to the question, however, from the standpoint of products liability, is that the insurance industry in general will write the policy on an occurrence basis What they are going to want to know m a particular industry is what are the hazards to which that company is exposed ? And they will try to measure the rate that they charge in the light of those hazards. But, as an additional point, for the company that is exposed by virtue of the nature of its product to damage arising out of the toxic effects, it is most impor tant that they should have their policies written on the occurrence basis I think in the main it will be an insurable risk on an occurrence basis. MODERATOR .AIIEARN Dr McGee DR MeGBE I disclaim any knowledge of product liability poli cies. As a physician, I would hope that no device or arbitrary fac tors would ever lessen the desirability and need for a manufacturer to know those things about his products which are reasonable and which he should determine prior to their use MODERATOR AH EA RN: Thank you very much The next question is '"Inasmuch as your industrial experience has been quite broad, what, based upon that experience, do you think constitutes the average corporate philosophy concerning management's responsi bility for the safety and protection of its employees' '' Dr. Bachman. DR. BACH-MAN- I think this is rathei an interesting question, and, of course, can only be answered on the basis of one's own ex perience, and I think m arriving at any statement or niy thought concerning what the average corporate philosophy is today, one must review what has happened over the course of one's lifetime The gen eral approach to safety 30 years ago was quite different from what it is today. The companies that were mostly interested m the safety of their men were, in a large measure, those companies where you had sort of a paternalistic feeling between the owners of the company and towards their men I don't think there was much of a concerted effort for safety Some, perhaps, but not too great Then as time went on and we grew, we have had a change in economic and sociological conditions. I think we have had manage ment people, as a whole, become much more socia'lv conscious towards flieu lellmv man and conscious of their obligations To him over this 30-\cm |i<`i iod Thu 1 has created a great deal of difference in the ,ipl11<;,ii 11 Ia iie\ chip] nu sa fct v measi11es lor emnlii'ws | 202 j In addition I think managements over the years have r e c o g n i z e d that safety is economically sound for a number of reasons. It Inis a very definite monetary value when you consider our compot 1ive economy. Processes have grown more and more complicated; n e w products have appeared This has caused the management t o s p e n d more money in order to build plants which inevitably have b e c o m e complicated. With the plants becoming more complicated and the p r o d u c t i o n increasing, it has been very desirable for the management to s e e Hint they obtain the highest quality of work and the most skilled worker;* that they can The skilled worker became a very intricate c o g in IInproduction wheel, and it was certainly most desirable to pr o t e c t him in the best possible manner, to look out for his health and he s u r e that he worked safely. The loss through accidents or through s o m e fatality would be serious, and, actually, mean a lot in dollars in p m duction tune and production effort 1 think this social coiiseiousiu-r.s and these other two factors have gone a long way in i m p r o v i n g tin approach to better and safer working conditions. F u r t h e r m o r e , mom-v has been saved, and this has been well recommended in flu- s iim v . m the workmen :s compensation fees Again. I think another factor that makes it worthwhile I'm- man agement to have a very favorable attitude towards s a f e t y is ilmf ii increases and improves the morale of their workers, and I know m our organization we have a saying, " A safe plant is i-allier a ha ppy plant " And usually, if you have a happy plant, v o n h a v e s o u r len-ii difficulties and you get your best work From my own experience, I wrould say that w h e r e a s in by p o n e years when one approached expenditures for sal'clv p u r p o s e s , (lie question might be raised, " Is this necessary?" , die allilml-- lalu-n today by most corporate managements is, " Will i b i s do good ' II' it is likely to do good, then put it in " 1 t h i n k (his is r a l h e r e l mr a e teristie m my experience. MODERATOR AHEARN Thank von very much. Mr. (fvudl MR OVIATT Dr. Bachman has prelfv well n u r in l the -.nh j e o t . j. u o i i l ki i ov\ t h a t ai l t h o s e w h o w i n - s a d i.y c o n s c i o u s *!> or *!U years ago were paternalistic, bid ( h e r e h a s been a d o l i u i f c elinii(,;c in philosophy Twenty-five or t h i r t y y e a r s ago I h e n - won- aimill uillr maries that companies e s l ab li sli ed will; pai I linn- m e d i c a l poiaoiuu l, and they sat back wailing for accidents to 1........... N o w t h e y t i v t o p r e v e n t ar< i di - nf s T h e y ........ t o o c a l I<11*l h m i d spend great sums of money to prevent aoeidint-, and I lliudi tliei in true ot mos! oi the iaige loipoialmos K\er\ \o,u 1.11 --< ana- ol money are spent on fully-equipped hospitals m the plants and in the office buildings. They have periodical examinations made of their employees. They have safety programs and training programs for the supervisors in the plants. All in all, industrial medicine has become a large part of the medical profession and a very important cog in an industrial organi zation I know from experience that the presidents of some of the divisions of large corporations put up trophies to be competed for by the plants to see who can have the least lost-time accidents over a period. While the accident statistics may not bear out the statements that have been made, nevertheless, there is that consciousness and a striving ail the time for bettering their record; and I think the rec ords over-all are being bettered every year As long as employers are conscious of this safety and what it will gain, not only in a monetary way, but in a happy, well-knit organization, they are not going to let up just because they have arrived at some degree of safety I feel that is the philosophy today. MODERATOR AHEARN Thank you Now we will move on to another question: 'Have there been recently substantial changes m the law respecting the liability of a manufacturer to one injured by his product MR B A IL E : That term "'recently" is a relative term. If I would treat it as meaning m this century, I would say yes. there have been what you might call substantial changes, a change in concept and a change m application of principle. Prior to 1916, generally m this country, you would have heard the rule stated that a manufacturer has no liability for injuries re sulting from the use of his product beyond persons who are in direct contractual relations with him In 1916, by the famous decision of Justice Cardoza, that principle was finally broken down and in lieu of it was adopted the rule: if a manufacturer would recognize that a defectively made product of his involved an unreasonable risk of harm to remote users or persons in the vicinity of remote users, that then he was under duty to make it carefully and from that has grown the general principle now, that manufacturers are, in the main, liable for defects in their products or for hazards against which they can guard, even to those persons who have no contractual relationship with llwin Probablv more important than that has been the change in the ,11>I>1:<-,i1on o1 that iiJo Needless to sav, m any claim bv remote users , m, i , i k ! , i m a mi I a c t i n t h e | >i oi ilcni o f <. i isat hi -i m a r n o i s o n e A I 11 manufacturer may make his product at one place and it may In>vel through many hands over much territory and during a long period of time before it becomes a factor in somebody's injury. The problem is then to determine whether or not some activity on the part of IInmanufacturer was the cause of that injury In the main, in tin* pnsl years our courts required rather specific proof of casual rein Ion.sliip If there has been a major change of our law. it is the tendency of our courts-- and I am one of those who thinks it is a very undesirable a inI unfortunate tendency--to accept what T call hypothetical or <pu-:i tionable proof of relationship between cause and injury, f flunk llm v two main changes that have occurred have been very subs),ml hit changes and have greatly broadened the scope of the liability of lb.manufacturer. MR. O VIATT: I have very little to add The r-oneepls of nun contractual relationship has been broadened the last few years 1 Ibint the courts are inclined to stretch that doctrine perhaps sonn-limes a little too far, but that old doctrine of McPherson vs I'nioU ('omp.-mv has opened a new thought on this question of liability, which I think is all right as long as they don't take it too far. MODERATOR. AHEARN Thank you very much Now, wo will go on to the next question ``What are the possibilities of eh.-meino process equipment or methods of manufacture 01 use of a Iomo mo tenal in order to reduce the potential hazard?" MR HATCH: I should like to speak at great h-ngili on ibis (mini but we don't have the time It is a very import,ant point Tboro me great possibilities for changing a situation from one of yivul <bmp< i to one of relatively little danger through the proper design or ....... of process equipment I don't know of anything imuc I'i list ml Ini' than to work on a plant problem and fo realize, while wre-il ling with it, that it should never have exisled in (he first plnee, Komeboily along the line failed to give proper alien! ion to the sob-el ion of Ibe right kind of equipment so as to avoid (lie problem I feel llutl Ibe industrial hygienists who, up to now, have been largely onuem-m'tl with hazard control though application of venl ilation and nihor ntmli secondary measures must, in die future, give gre.ibw ennsi< li-rn Iion In redesign of the process equipment ilself for purpose.. of hfir.md control Th e r e * a n * e n d l e s s n u m b e r s o f e x a m p l e s o f I la- e r e n l i o n n f o n n u n e c e s s a i v p r o b l e m b e c a u s e o f ( b e f a i l n t e o f d r - u mi e i e o l ` |iCnCen<-- e q ii 11m i e n I t o m o o r ; ><>ra I< j ni o linn- i m l la I I b ml . i no <; tj<:-f i n n s o f b o * n i d a n d t o , i <or| >! h o r n ( b e n i p s . I i t <q i n n s i h d it \ t <. ` M i i i i i i i /. , I b e | w l n n | | tial hazard which is on a par with the responsibility they assume for the operation of the process itself DR ZA PP: I would certainly agree with everything that Ted Hatch has said. 1 notice that this question really concerns three things - possibilities of changing- process equipment, methods of manu facture, and use of toxic material I am sure that we could think of examples of all three. Ted has spoken of changing- process equipment of one sort or the other Then, the manufacturer may sometimes be able to substitute a less toxic material As far as the hazard of use is concerned, I can think of some examples. I think it is almost a truism that we can control any toxic hazard if we are willing- to go to the trouble to do it. Now. sometimes economies is a decisive factor there That is, if you have to take ex tensive measures to control a hazard, it may not be economically feasible to do it MODERATOR AHEARN Thank you, Dr Zapp. Next question `"Can one distinguish between health impairment resulting from effects of handling toxic material and that resulting from fear (anx iety states) of effects from handling such materials9" Dr McGee DR McGEE 1 think the answer is " yes" for certain materia1s and ``no" for others I f a satisfactory differential diagnosis is to be made, there are two requirements First, there must be some objective test which is specific for the effects of the material. By that T mean, by reliable chemical analysis. Second, theie must be the ability to rule out a similar effect from anything else with which the worker may have come in contact inside or outside the plant In other words, we must be able to say that a specific health impairment resulted from the material in question and under circumstances where we can rule out other possible factors producing that end result An example is the anticholinesterase effects of certain phosphoruscontaining insecticides You have an objective test, in most instances you have the opportunity to rule out other exposures which could alter significantly the level of cholinesterase m the blood: There is another field, however, of materials whose effects are signs and symptoms which are rather vague I feel the clinician can not be sure whether such illness is a result of actual exposure to a material which is known to give such vague symptoms in the carly stages Butterflies m the stomach, problems ot sleeping, malaise and Hie like are symptoms found frequentlx m the man who has an anx iety state Soniel lines the reeogm/at ion that the exposure is mstifiinent to pioduee the diseased state nixes us a leusonably good clue fh.lt ,11! a n x !<-! \ is i '-s| hm s i i c e I -Mib I I think all the physicians present here will recall in (heir periences examples of epidemics of anxiety m groups of people In' cause one or more workers felt that he had developed illness fi-oni n particular exposure. He talked about it and others soon felt, they had the same symptoms In some instances we have sufficient control of the environment to know exactly what were the possibilities of <-\pu sure and to say that it is impossible, under the amount of exposure for the episode to be a bona fide exposure with resulting illness. Tln-tr fore, the entire thing must be on a psychosomatic basis. MODERATOR AHEARN: Now. we will go to another q u e s t i o n '`How adequate are animal experiments as a means of predicting lo\ ieity for human beings?" DR. ZAPP If we are trying to predict effects on the human being, then the human being himself would be the ideal experimental animal. We can:t use man as an experimental animal, and. there fore we must accept other species as an imperfect substitute. Now, perhaps the soundest basis for predicting t h e e/l'eets on man from the effects on animals is that our internal a n a t o m s a n d physiology are rather similar If we are dealing with a c h e m i e a l that produces liver damage in dogs and other animals, t h e n w e r a n he fairly sure that it will produce liver damage m m a n . W e c a n n o t he too sure about the quantitative relationship. There a r e di fl 'e rmie cs in species of susceptibility. Now, with all that, with the recognition that a n i m a l e x p e n m o i i tation is an imperfect substitute. I think we can look with some '..die faction at results that we have obtained in predicting effects .........an through animal experiments over the past 100 years. We have .... tamly learned a lot from the animals, and we have, with the uae id perhaps arbitrary factors of safety, been guided by those result', m setting up criteria for safe practices with respect to man. By and large, we have been successful There are e\ce| q ions There are materials that affect man m ways tied we cannot re| >rodnee in any experimental animal, hut they aie, fort mini ely, rather tun' MR HATCH: 1 like the emphasis l)r Znpp put on the qiundi lafive aspects. For obvious reasons, it is not possible to Irtinsla (e tin* findings on animals for d i r e c t application to m.m H o w a d e q u a t e a r e a n i m a l e s p e i i i i i e i i l s '' I n s o m e en' .i", l i n y n i e highly adeq uate and m some other eases they haven 't hrcn a dequate ( ' e rfa inl v. no ne ot us w a n t In go a u u \ from here wi t h the nlcn (hid t h e e \ p e i i m e n f a I a n i m a l i a n g i v e ns all (lie a i m i n ' . , h u t Hum h a m g i v e n us m i i i n n . i l m u o t r n o i m e n s v a l u e S o I In r e r no t p t i M m i i thill I h t n n n n . ' d n i . n s , m n t i p o ! *111 p . m i m t h e ! n d \ o l | , m r a c e i i l , MODERATOR AHEARN We have arrived at the moment when we would welcome questions or statements from the floor I f anyone has a question to ask about any phase of the discussion of the panel, I would welcome his getting up and giving his name and asking his question or making his suggestion. DR. ANNA M. BAETJER, Johns-Hopkms University I know that the time is very limited, and we have not had time to cover all the questions I would particularly like the panel to discuss two phases: one. the three questions that deal with the labeling laws and the importance of these, and two. how can the consumer determine the composition of toxic materials sold under trade names'? MODERATOR AHEARN : As a matter of fact, we had grouped those three together. Dr McGee, will you take off on those questions? DR. McGEE. How can consumers determine the composition of toxic materials sold under trade names9 Sometimes it is almost im possible to do so, From the standpoint of a practicing physician treat ing acute poisoning, such information comes in too late for him to help his patient His problem is that of taking a trade name and trying to find out what it means He gets a chemical identity as the first step, and he still doesn't know what the material is in a pharma cologic sense He has to have that material classified in a pharma cologic or toxicologic sense for the information to be of any help to him If he doesn't know something of the biologic properties of the material, if he doesn't know the site of action, he will have no basis for intelligent therapy. Too frequently, m our present setup, that in formation comes to him a little late to be in the best interests of the patient The labels are not big enough to contain all of this informa tion which might be required by the physician There are in some packages inserts of descriptive material which can be of use to him in some instances. I think, frankly, we must improve techniques for getting the in formation that is required to the customer, and in turn, to his physi cian where there has been an accident and resulting illness. Poison control information centers mav help MODERATOR AHEARN Thank you very much. Dr. Bach man, von arc a chemical engineer 1 believe everybody would like to hear your specific answers to the question of whether a maim Inc line! ol toxic materials ran lie compelled to follow labeling restric tions am! ( Mu t i o n s as recoiii'uondod hv the M'ami Fact 11ri ii" (Ihemisls' Associai ion Also, we would like to have ynm comments on the cur lent si at u s of etforl s l>\ a u u mher of m y.im/.il mis such ,is l 11< Maim ! IMS ! facturing Chemists' Association, to develop adequate labeling nnd to standardize labeling. DR BACHMAN: I don't believe the Manufacturing Chcmista' Association has any authority. My answer to that is no, I don't. lm lieve manufacturers can be compelled to follow the recommendation of the Manufacturing Chemists' Association On the other baud, I think it is highly desirable that they cooperate to the maximum degree possible, and I think the great majority of the manufacturers do id tempt to do this because most of them are members of ihe Maim I'mturing Chemists' Association Now, as to the current status of these efforts, that is perhaps mi-' of the most active committees in the Manufacturing Chemists' Ainn ciation. In many cases, it has formulated codes and labels to lie used which I believe are being used. Of course. I think the crux of the whole question here is for such organizations as the Manufacturing Chemists' Assoeial ion. The Amor ican Medical Association, and the chemical specialty people In gel In gether and try to formulate a coordinated policy on labeling. We are always going to have difficulties if you have several appmaeln's In labeling. I think we must have a unified approach or, 11' 1 is Proton down into compartments, these compartments iimsl all originate I'mm the same source That is, they must originate from the same aiillmrily be that authority one that results because people work together m- mu that is enforced by virtue of government action MODERATOR AHEARN There are a number of assoeial nma, including the Manufacturing Chemists' Association, busy in this Held I believe the American Medical Association is equally aelivo It seems to me. Dr Zapp. I should ask you lo devote yourneli1 specifically to the question, "How can consumers doloimine 11it- emu position of toxic materials sold under trail' muries DR. ZAPP: Before I answer that, Mr Alumni, I would like to make one comment on the current stains of (lie wmk of these viinouii associations The Manufacturing Chemists' Assoeia tmil, through their I'11 ,<(i*timim y Coiiiiu iffco, im (.uiiu'cii *s[x i:i.11111\s Ai a ii o iael ii ring Association, and the American Medical Assoeial ion |ia\e agreed that they will work together towards wording ol some nnilorm labeling law or at least a sot, of pri inn pies Ilia! will guide llio.r various ns'meui Imns The C S M A gioup is now meeting m I'll dadnlpli m on thin vc y sa me siihjeel That is the cu IIenl si aIus a , fa i ,t . I know Wi l l ] r e s p t ' c l l o ( i i o s t l o u :_! !, 1 I h i n k (lull .ill l i i i e o ol t h e a e o n lea I !i.t \ i 111s I n ie n f it inet I I In M . i m i l . n l u n i i " ( ' In i e e.l ' \ - c m a I inn C S.M A , and A M A agree that there should he more information on product labels than there is at the present time 1 believe with respect to the industrial uses of chemicals, that industry is fairly well satisfied with M.C.A. 's principles of labeling as expressed in its Manual of Warning Labels, with which I presume all of you are familiar However, when it comes to the consumer, and particularly the user of small packages of cleaning powder or toothpaste or cement or what have you, it is agreed that there should he more information on the label so that the user will have some idea of the active ingre dients and some idea of the hazards involved in an accidental expo sure ro material. One of the most frequent inquiries I suppose that we get in the du Pont Company is. what happens if a child swallows a little du Pont cement9 It was never intended for that purpose, of course, but the question is. what happens? Fortunately, the answer to that is. " pracneallv nothing, don't worry about it " : hut that's the thing that the person needs to be reassured about The physicians, on the other hand, would like to see on the label the kind of information that would enable them to treat cases of accidental exposure. Now, with all the good will in the world on the part of these organizations, there are still many practical difficulties involved in formulating a set of label ing principles that will do the job to everyone's satisfaction The householder really wants to know how to keep out of trouble and avoid calling the M D s. And so it goes. Now. I think that something is going to be done, and out of all this activity there will be more product information on the labels. Meanwhile, we have the resources that Dr McGee told us about, the poison control centers There are one or two compilations that give us a good deal of information about the trade name products, and Dr. Hodge of the University of Rochester is coming out with an encyclo pedia which will give more information of that type. But, ultimately, the manufacturer is the best source of information if you need it. In most of these cases where information is needed m a hurry, I think it can be best obtained by getting in touch with the manufacturer or his branch office. MODERATOR AHEARN Thank you, Dr Zapp Mr Bane, 1 believe to complete the discussion, you ought to answer this question. " Are pi'sent labeling laws adequate with respect to requiring warn ing and preventive measures as to toxic qualities' " UR, BA1LR f Miiiik lliete we first, have to define the sense hi wlueli we me using; the term adequate II we use the word in the sense llie! <<11n[111,1nee usstites nmimmlv imm liaihiits ioi 1be in.mu [ 270 1 facturer, our answer would be one thing - and on the other hand, if we mean by adequate m the sense of sufficient requirements and cn foreement to protect the public from injury. I think there is a dif ferent answer. From the first standpoint, labeling laws as such do not give im munity from liability to a manufacturer by mere compliance with tInlabeling' law. The common law itself imposes a duty upon the inarm facturer to bring to the attention of the users of his product, ami people who are in the vicinity of its use, the dangers which are m herent m its use or may flow from it He must comply with that standard Considering it from the second standpoint-- of the adequacy "I the laws to protect the public from injury-- I think we have l<>say IImt the laws as such are inadequate. I am also one of those who has (Inview that the laws will always be inadequate, because 1 think t h e r e e necessarily a lag between technology and its development, and (In ability of legislators to act. Foi that reason, I have always felt that effective labeling lege, lation should be broad and general m its terms and depend for ell'ee tiveness upon detailed and limited regulations issued pursuant nthat broad general statute I think when this is done, we arc Him able to more quickly adopt regulations to changing conditions and !< more effectively enable industry to comply, because the\ can be nun, specific and thus more clearly understood. As you know, the number of labeling statures ihat rsisl, f>>dn\ are bad Even the person who confines his attention to that Mib|cci and nothing else, and there are few people who do. not only 11 iliti . or four federal statutes with which he must deal, but then- arc sunn 28 separate state statutes, and then there is a multitude of local m dinanees that have other effects upon us T h e y have main advaulaii*c- frem the standpoint of imposing criminal liability In all in:.Ian... . however, they are not effective m enabling authorities to lake out nl the market the products that do not meet the requirements of llm,r statutes, and needless to say, the only way that you can really ell'ee tively prevent harm from .substances that arc unpio|n-rl\- m (In- nun lent tn Pwdudn tbnjp flhm hi' .,fiM;i Mr Abeam, I would sa\ by wav of summary lliul, yea. <>ur Inbrl laws are inadequate Timr nerd io bo rlumurd and I am Impofui thov will he. MR. WATKRS I ihmk if)'* Mi(li<,noo would i><` mlrtr.lrd m ii<. (juosjtou oi whrMmt mlihlucs should (cji limit rmjdoyr**, Ih-tl i h,m.ilrn.d tbr\ .i;r b.mdiui'; m !>\m <o iMrc!iiti"( u u MODERATOR AHEARN. I think we decided to group that question with the question, " Should information on the presence of toxic exposures in industry, obtained by health departments, be given to labor unions and employees or only to management?" Dr. McGee. DR. McGEE In answer to the first question, I have found no way to conduct a program which will get the cooperation of the em ployees without giving them the reasons for it. These people are en titled to it. I think the only successful programs that I have observed else where, outside of our organization, are those in -which the employee has some knowledge of why he follows certain operating procedures regardless of what the end effect is of the material or the end effect might be in the materials that he handles. Therefore, I would say that we must give the employee that knowledge so that he can under stand and use it in coming to a conclusion as to why he must do cer tain things to protect himself. I think the same statements apply to organized groups and safety committees and union leaders. MODERATOR AHEARN: You draw no distinction as to infor mation made available5 DR. McGEE That's right. FLOOR SPEAKER: It is required in Ohio to tell the employees of the toxic material in the department and it. is required to repeat it to them monthly. MODERATOR AH EARN. Thank yon very much MANFRED BOWDITCH, Lead Industries Association.- I think there were two important matters not covered in the discussion of labeling. First, of all, Dr McGee said that very frequently the nature of the toxic substances gets to the doctor too iate. I wonder if he is aware of the fact that the American Academy of Pediatrics has now established over 30 poison control centers from coast to coast. There are 15 in the State of Florida alone. All of them are manned by tele phone 24 hours a day All are in charge of a physician, and at a meeting only day before yesterday it was agreed that the Public Health Service wiii be asked to take own the national direction cf these centers and see that current information is supplied to all of them I really think that this is of importance With regard to the matter of warning labels, there is a body of laws known as the Pharmacy Laws, which were designed to protect the public in pur chases over drug store counters In a court, in one of the southern slates tccenlly, one of those laws was intoi protect to covei a shipment ,,| 1111. uae in iridustrv and an award of hid.000 seas made on that f 27 2 ] basis, and at the present time I understand that further suits a m o u n t ing to $80,000 are before the courts. I am told that only about luilf u dozen of the states have adequate exemptions to prevent such mim interpretations. Only about three weeks ago I discussed this with representatives of the Manufacturing Chemists' Association, and it in my understanding that they will take steps to try to bring p r o p e r exemptions into the laws of the other states. MR. T. -J LANIGAN, General Electric Company: 1 would like to hear discussion on the question . 'How is it best possible to main tain a continuing safety awareness among employees engaged in hazardous occupations involving the use of toxic materials' " MR HATCH: To have an effective safety program Ihe people who are attempting to do this must maintain among themselves mi awareness of safety needs that is stronger than the safety a\s............ of the employees I have no particular procedure to suggest sine,- I have had no special experience in developing and main!auiinp such awareness. I do know from experience, however, that t h e r e is "u- ai risk if such awareness is not maintained and developed on the pm i < everybody concerned. We have all seen good programs break dnw u because of lack of maintenance of awareness MODERATOR AHEARN: Dr Zapp, would you comment " D R Z A P P : I will only add to what Ted Hatch h a s s m d I Hunk the promotion of the continual awareness of the s a f e t y p r o e m m among employees is a responsibility of supervision S u p e r v i s o r : , will only do it if they know that higher management w a n t s t h e m to do i( Now, when safety policy is set at the t o p level of e o m p ; i u \ m,ni.'i|ie ment and is passed on down through the v a r i o u s s u p e r v i s o r y e l m nnoli: to the employees, then I believe the progiam c a n be m a i n t a i n e d mle quately, and the employees will have a continuing a w a r e n e s s of de program. If the foreman goes around an men w i t h o u t won r i n g a nmidi where a mask is required or without v e m - m g s a f e t y gl a s s e s in nu area where safety glasses are required, obviously, by b i s e s am ji l e, be is going to undermine the whole p r o g r a m II'. on the o i l i e r tuuul, Ingoes in with a mask on or goes in w i t h s a f e t y g l a s s e s o n a m ! inmnlii that others do likewise, he has a good cu a n e e 01 e n i o e e m g d m mi e n and maintaining the continued a w a r e n e s s f liat t h i s quest h m upnitloi ,,f M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N T h a n k \ o , i Mi Haile, \,m , , , d m g e n e r a l c o u n s e l of a n i n s u r a n c e com p a i n !l s e e m s to urn y o u m e d m panelist to answer thes'e two q u e s t i o n s " Wh.il m e t h o d s ure iivnihtldc to in s u r a n c e c a r n e i s to assist th e i r m s i i m ! m die prof net mu t mo p i o v e e s a n d t h e p n i c h . i s m ; ' i m b h e b o r n d o h I/, n d o f pe, ir I,,,I terials?" and. " What methods are available to insurance carriers to assist small industries in the detection and control of hazardous con ditions?" MR. BAILE : I think those questions are primarily directed to the insurance carriers' place in contributing towards the reduction of accidents in industry, either among the employees or in users of the product or in third parties who might be otherwise affected by the ac tivity of the employees of an industry. I think that it can probably come under eight points First is the function that Dr Zapp has already mentioned, that is, through the sale of the insurance there is brought to the attention of top management the importance of the safety program. It has a very direct influence on the amount of costs, a very substantial item in the cost of any industry. By bringing that to hear on the top management, you get the influence which Dr Zapp suggested, which is so necessary, of that philosophy going down through the various echelons of the company. Also, I think it is that very force that brought about the changes in the philosophy of industry that we referred to earlier. I think the safety awareness ot industry has been, to a great extent, brought about by the influence of the salesmanship, if you will, of the insur ance industry. But m a more practical sense, tile insurance industry contributes through its engineering facilities and its suggestions and participation in the development of safety programs in any industry This consists of arranging and conducting safety meetings, distribut ing the proper type of literature, and the proper type of postings Secondly, by its own engineering, it supplements the safety program of a company in ascertaining where the hazards in that industry exists And in doing- so, it approaches it I think, with a greater ob jectivity, because it is uninfluenced by those unconscious influences which company people are subject to, such as the costs of changing a process, the reduction in time, or the increase in time which some change of process to incorporate a safety factor would involve Another wav- m which they can contribute is in the preparation of a catastrophe elan fo** spec'flc baza'-'D TnQitrfio^p r-arriprs pan aid in the development of drills so that companies are prepared in the event those catastrophes occur. Another manner in which they aid is m the supplying of infor mation for the preparation and distribution of safety material The in,mi ranee induMrv .ii-qmres the collective know-ledge of many mdu.s11ics a n d c a n b u n g lb,if knowledge to rhe aid of a particular company ' 'lie i ns i i i . me , , i ,r i-K r a l s o a i d s ill d i e p r e pa r af i on o f p u i e! u s i n g f 271 1 agent manuals, which is a method of coordinating the receipt of l,<>\i<* materials into a plant, so that knowledge comes to the attention of ( lie production personnel of the nature of the product that is being brought in, m order that proper safety precautions can be taken. Finally, I think the contribution that the insurance carrier e;m make is to maintain the awareness of safety I think the great ilil'ti culty that occurs m many industries is that you develop a program to avoid accidents and prevent accidents It has a peak, and then it. tends to slacken off. Every once in awhile it needs to be rejuvenated I think the fact that the engineers of the insurance carrier and its stall' come in regularly and constantly bring safety to the attention <>f tinpeople at the production level helps establish the habit of safely and it is that habit which in the long run will prevent many accidents MODERATOR AHEARN On that same point, will you elalm rate on methods available to insurance carriers to assist small indii. tries? MR. BAILE . I might say this. I think there is a distiiu-iimi lliui should be drawn there. In some industries, because of their size, llo-,\ are able to employ the technical talent which is required in elTeei ima sound safety program whereas m other industries, because of tin small number of employees they are not able to have people wlm will specialize in those particular problems. In that instance, (Ik- insmai.... carriers become another arm of the company and supply Mwith in-luu cal talent which it doesn't have available within its own personnel MR. OVIATT Mr. Baile. isn't it true that (lie insuimu-<- com panies look to the largei manufacturers many times in gel mini mu tion on these toxic materials, on the processes (hat are used ami Ilusafety devices that may be necessary? MR. BAILE Very much so. MR. OVIATT And then they can imparl llial knowledge to f11.smaller companies that are not m a position to hire llu-se hij/ldi trained experts ? lUWJOl . Oi i T Ii lTlTX-'i . i{ Ot,,m mIT '<.>. OI 111ii. 05 ' iV, C . !.. . l I I . MR. O V I A T T T h e r e is also a n o t h e r was I th in k y o u will hem me o u t on t h i s -- t h a t i n s u r a n c e c o m p a n i e s h a v e be e n h e l | i f u l T l i nl io m m a k i n g c o u n t s -- f u m e counts, pet m g i a phu- an aly se s, a n d to I ml l i T h e y go iillo ( h e p l a i d s to m a k e t h e s e a n d m a k e llicii IeeoOl oiend.it ions MR. OVIATT: I would like to add just one word if I may to the earlier question on efforts to develop adequate labeling and to standardize labeling. Those on the panel who spoke to that question failed, I think, to mention the fact that the Manufacturing Chemists' Association at present has a law, a proposed federal law for labeling and for the far more important matter of confiscation. You can have criminal statutes all over the place, but throwing a man in jail or fin ing him $10,000 will not save the life of someone using a chemical that is not properly labeled I think this confiscation feature is all-impor tant This new law that M C A proposes does take care of that ade quately as to the defining of what a poison is and setting forth tests for determining a poison. Now, what will become of that law, no one knows That is the present status of the M C A 's efforts MODERATOR AHEARN Thank you DR. BACHMAN I would like to comment m reference to earlier questions. To maintain safety awareness you must say that a company has to tell its employees what the nature of the materials is which they are handling-, whether they are toxic or carcinogenic, because you can never have a safety program unless you give the people working with toxic or carcinogenic materials such information. I don't think that was adequately emphasized before I think as far as the question of the most economical and best way a small plant can get help on problems of toxicity and industrial hygiene, the obvious answer is a good consultant. I don't know if there is enough consulting work done in a continuous manner with the different smaller companies. DR THOMAS L. SHIPMAN, Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory. I would like to have this question discussed " If a manufacturer con forms to the highest standards of an industry in the manufacture of his product, will that be a complete defense in an action against him for injuries resulting from his p r o d u c t I n placing this question before the panel, I would like to remind them of the experience of some cf the electrical product manufacturers and their difficulties with beryllium MODERATOR AHEARN Mr Oviatt. let me ask you to answer that question. MR OVIATT I thrnk that can be categorically answered as " no '' There have been cases where a court has held tliat even though Die standards of (he indusfry have b e e n followed, ibe highest stand. i r < K ft,if u n d e r (l i e e n cu ntsf a unt ' s fho.se s f u n d . i n l s w n r o 'l h ' g b | 27 fi ] enough Each individual manufacturer must assess his own product and go beyond, under certain, circumstances, the standards set by I,Inindustry That is so even though labeling laws are followed. MODERATOR AITEARN Mr. Bade, would you care to add some thing to that answer? MR B A IL E . By way of addition. The responsibility of the manufacturer is essentially one to conform with the standard of canthat the law imposes. Now, that standard may be imposed either by statute, by judicial decision or by what is probably a pretty vague standard, namely, the standard of care of a reasonable man ae| mg under those circumstances. Now, in determining whether that third standard has been mel, ;i court or jury should take into consideration what the practices and standards of an industry are, but they are only a measure for the fuel finder to use and are not binding upon them. In other words, the wide spread adoption of a particular method or practice will be a test I'm' determining whether or not reasonable care was used. But the <-<mrl-. have said that 12 lay people, who don't know a thing about the Iuimi ness, can say you could have used more care. I can't believe that reasonable care can be any more than an industry would use. becom,.I don't think industry would ever adopt, as a widespread praeliee, n careless practice if there were a safe one. The court seems to think tint! 12 jurors can say they can I might say, whenever I have been confronted with that problem, I have always remembered the one judge who said the only reasonable man he ever knew was his wife's first husband. MR SCHWENZFEIR, JR , Brush Beryllium Company I would like to have the expression of the panel on the (list me! ion in labeling procedure between what is required for a retail product and wind is. required for industrial products. It has been inferred fhal 1 is ml particularly important to exercise greater care in labeling if IInproduct is to be handled in commercial use. though if may h<- m ivinil It is implied in another question that the mamifacl tirer of Untoxic material can pass the responsibility on to the corporate pur chaser, who. in turn, passes the hazard on to his employer, I wonder if that is really correct. M R B A I D E If I l i l l dei sf a n d VOUI q u e s f i n n . if is (hi:, W h e l h e i a manufacturer has a dutv vi l l i respect to giving v aiu in.", (el In llm n l l r i h u l e s ol tin- p r o d i n t h> t h e tilt iiit.it- c o n s u m e ! " , w h o l e h e ne||i, l o t ' s suv t o a m i d d l e pi i i e l l a s e l w h o i e p o c h , i p e s it nr .uim-llmig 1i1>* i ! MR SCHWENZFEIR, J R .. No, intermittent handler is another nroduetion concern, like this bulk packaging- that was in one of the arlier questions of tie program MR. BAILE Your question, then, concerns the liability of the manufacturer who distributes in bulk to people who handle that prodict in transportation and who are employees of the purchaser who use t m some manufacturing process 9 MR SCHWENZFEIR, JR Right. MR BAILE I -would say by wav of answering that first of all, ..C C regulations, of course, control to a large degree the requirenents of labeling m transportation Now, they are designed primarily 'or the protection of employees who are handling it m transporta,ion, and, of course, conformance with that is required and if there s a lack of conformance and injury results to employees of carriers vho are transporting it, liability would be imposed From the standpoint of the employees of the purchaser of the uroduct. the problem there, as I see it. is this: The law imposes upon ,he manufacturer the obligation to give warning, reasonably caleuated to call to the attention of the users or potential users of the oroduct the hazards that are apparent in that product Now. notice, it is a duty of reasonableness that is imposed upon ,hem It would be an utter impossibility for the manufacturer of carion tetrachloride, le t 's say, to go to every employee in every manu facturing plant that uses that and inform them as to the hazards that ire involved in the use of it So. the law recognizes, under those cir cumstances, that if the manufacturer brings to the attention of the ourchaser whose employees are going- to use it. the hazards of that oroduct, or if the purchaser without having it brought to his attention s aware of the hazards of that product, then there is no obligation on ;he part of the manufacturer to inform them, because the law never requires a man to do a vain act You don't have to tell somebody the iangers in a product when he already knows them Then the law im poses upon that employer the duty of providing his employees with a late place lu work etna of passing on knowledge of haz-cu J.-5 to thr -mployees so the employee can take such action and exercise such care is is necessary for his own protection Does ihat a n s w e r the question or <mi i still m i s s i n g if Mb' SCHWENZFEIR JR Th.ifs if Thank \ou M () I ) `1K \ T< ) 1\ .\ H E A R N iic lima " Now is ( h e r e a n n l i x t <| Ucsfinn i t e m ATS MR. W W HODGE, Koppers Company, Ine 1 would like lo hear discussion on the question of how industry can best work willi governmental groups m order to be certain that regulations for t.lm control of hazardous materials are proper and reasonable MODERATOR AHEARN Mr. Hatch, we had assigned you lo answer that question. MR. HATCH: I am not certain what the framer of this quest ion had in mind--obviously, there are many different answers to it. Industry, presumably, does have a large volume of information that can be best utilized by working with governmental agencies in order that the proper regulations be formulated. I have in mi nd mm very specific way m which industry is working with an official a ge n cy to make sure of proper regulations, and that is in the State of New York, where under the procedures for developing or regulating codes for industry, it is required that an advisory committee he formulated, including representatives from the industries directly involved, those who supply equipment to he used in industry, representatives from labor unions, and so on. Now, I think the important point here is this in the very I'nuu ing of this procedure, recognition is given to the fact tfi.it the prob lem pertaining to the use of a particular toxic substance >n one pur ticular industry may: be different from the problem that .irises m the use of that same toxic substance in some other industry, and (Imi to be reasonable regulations must recognize this Regulations developed from this point of view are distinguished, for example, Imm a gnral regulation winch consists principally of a list of permissible en....ai trations. Take carbon monoxide, for example; adequate rgulai imm for control of this hazardous gas should be diffrent from irgulntimirt governing its control in steel mills. This is recognized in the New York procedure, and proAoimm are made for the active participation in formulation <d' oulir-lry codon by those people from the industries who do have needed ml'ornml ion and experience Obviously, to be objective, it must he ugieed by till those who do participate that the purpose is to come oui \\ illi n repu lation which will, m fact, prevent ill health or aeeideuts We had in t h i s room not l o n g a g o a p u b l i c i t i e e l u w w h i c h hi ul t h e s a m e p u r p o s e here m P e n n s y l \ a m, i P r i o r t o t h e offi ci al a d o p t i o n id' regulations u e it .n m ng to a ertain industrial li.iz.ud, p e o p l e li.ou t he i n d u s t r i e s w h o coul d In m g mp o t f . i u l iu Iur i nal mu a m i c v p c n o u i ' o !o b a i ' o u t h e ; i roi il e mi w e r e i u \ 11ci I i o . 11!e m i a m i e o n I i ih u Ie at q geo l i o n s w h i c h w o u l d m a k e t h e ( m a t c o d e m m e r l f o o l i v o 1 I l i eve I lint the ' ! 1( ! 1I S I ON ! h , I I l h ) i 1,1 \ 1 ! 1l l N I 111n I ' I 1,1 11f I1I .1 ' o I1i ( I \\ C h I o ! o , I i n I U i d I l I I should search for opportunities to bring this information to the official agencies and work with them in translating it into reasonable regu lations. MODERATOR AHEARN- Now, we have room for about one more question Who has a question to ask? R. C ERICKSON. Aluminum Com pany of America How would you propose to bridge the gap between safety and the business re vealing trade secrets when such became necessary in the interest of safety ? DR. BACHMAN Of course, the Question of trade secrets is rather an interesting question. If you have rather a fundamental patent on a process, you usually are adequately protected L et's try to confine ourselves to the area where we say the patent protection is not available I think this is going to be a tough one. Frankly, I think about the only way that it could be handled would be--well, there are two ways. If the number of companies in volved were small, I think it likely that Company A possessing the trade secret might be quite willing to make the information available to Company B with the sole restriction that this information not be used by Company B except insofar as it was used for the purposes of protecting the health of the employees or for rendering the work safely. If the secret information or the confidential information, let us say, were to be used for purposes of profit in the manufacture of the item, there Company A w'ould properly expect a remuneration from Company B This is fairly standard without the element of safety. There are a lot of companies today that go out and deliberately buy confidential information rather than patent information When you go beyond the relationship existing between the few companies and try and say that this is something that would be broadly applic able to a great number of companies, I don't know how you could do that except through some form of perhaps very fine social feeling, let, us say, social consciousness on the part of the company possessing those trade secrets and indicating a willingness to make available to their fellow countrymen at large such information 1 think that, is (lie only other possible approach wheioby you can achieve that So, T t h i n k you h a v e two cases, one w h e re the n u m b e r of c o m panies in\ol\c(l .ire limited, tins can he handled W here the eompan ie.s i n v o l v e d a i e not l i m i t e d a n d v e r y l ar ge , l h e n \ on m u s t d e p e n d . I believe, e nt i re ! * u p o n t h e soma! onse m u s i less o| (in- m a n a g e m e n t of the eo mp ai iv h o l d m g (in t r a d e seei< i | :?H () 1 MODERATOR A H E A R N : You would never think ii win.- i.. undertake concealment if the price of concealment was to bring <lilHculties to a man's health ? DR. BACHMAN. Of course, I am a little bit biased 1 don'i be lieve people are such blackguards that they would do those tInure MODERATOR AHEARN: Gentlemen, 1 think I anticipate tlm wishes of the audience when I express to Dr. McGee, Dr. Kuoliui.'iu, Mr. Baile, Mr Oviatt. Dr Zapp, and Mr Hatch, your appreciation ol the contribution which they have made to our knowledge W< haw had a distinguished panel, and I hope and believe that we haw lunl a very profitable session. I would like to say on behalf of the panel, you have been a gu.nl audience. You have been very attentive and very courteous, ami fluif has inspired the panel to do a good job You have to haw a nml audience to have a good panel We have had both here lo<!a\