Document ExL11QoxBaxx0KYkYJeJbOV8b

IN THE MATTER OF: Transwestem Pipeline Company vs. Monsanto Company, et al. Cause No. BC 026959 Deposition of Martin Farrar October1,1992 Gore Reporting Company, Inc. 100 North Broadway, Suite 1175 Saint Louis, Missouri 63102 (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003879 I ___________________________________________________________________________________ 2 1 SUPERIOR COURT 2 FOR THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA 3 FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES 4 5 TRANSWESTERN PIPELINE COMPANY, 6 7 Plaintiff, 8 9 vs. NO. BC 026959 10 1 1 MONSANTO COMPANY AND DOES 1 1 2 THROUGH 200 INCLUSIVE, 13 1 4 Defendants. 15 1 6 Deposition of MARTIN FARRAR, taken 1 7 on behalf of the Plaintiff, at the offices 1 8 of Bryan Cave, One Metropolitan Square, in 1 9 the City of St. Louis, State of Missouri, 2 0 on the 1st day of October, 1992 before 2 1 Ronald A. Gore, Registered Professional 2 2 Reporter and Notary Public. 23 24 25 Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003880 i 1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: 2 3 FOR THE PLAINTIFF: 4 Ms. Dana K. Welch 5 Shearman & Sterling 6 555 California Street 7 San Francisco, California 94104 8 9 FOR THE DEFENDANT MONSANTO COMPANY: 1 0 Mr. Charles F. Preuss 1 1 Bronson, Bronson & McKinnon 1 2 505 Montgomery Street 1 3 San Francisco, California 94111 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003881 4 1 INDEX 2 PAGE 3 Examination by Ms. Welch 9 4 5 6 EXHIBITS 7 8 Exhibit 680 38 9 3-4-69 memo from E.S. Tucker to W.R. 1 0 Richard Tran 059438-059439 11 1 2 Exhibit 681 43 1 3 4-16-69 memo from C Paton to the file. 1 4 Tran 009723- 009727 15 1 6 Exhibit 682 51 1 7 Handwritten notes dated 12-16-69 1 8 Tran 025724- 025731 19 2 0 Exhibit 683 52 2 1 11-17-69 letter from C. Paton to Dr. Farrar 2 2 & Mr. Wheeler 2 3 Tran 024977- 024978 24 2 5 Exhibit 684 65 Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 . WATER PCB-SD0000003882 I 5 1 5-26-70 memo from J.D. Wright 2 Tran 085272 3 4 Exhibit 685 74 5 Monsanto memo from C. Paton to Dr. 6 Richard,"Subject, DDT on Trial" 7 Tran 086293- 086295 8 9 Exhibit 686 75 1 0 4-14-69 memo from W.R. Richard to file. 1 1 Tran 005472- 005475 12 1 3 Exhibit 687 81 1 4 5-13-69 document from W.R. Richard to file. 1 5 Tran 009835- 009837 16 1 7 Exhibit 688 88 1 8 6- 10-69 memo from J.E. Springgate to W.E. 1 9 S cha1 k 2 0 Tran 025233 21 2 2 Exhibit 689 84 2 3 8-25-69 memo from E.V . John 2 4 Tran 058985 25 Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 . (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003883 6 1 Exhibit 6 9 0 91 2 9-5-69 Minutes of Aroclor ad hoc committee 3 Tran 024263-024266 4 5 Exhibit 6 91 98 6 10-2-69 Document"Subject: Report of Aroclor 7 ad hoc committee" 8 Tran 024250- 024262 9 1 0 Exhibit 692 110 1 1 9-9-69 document from W.R. Richard to E. 1 2 Wheeler 1 3 Tran 023807- 023814 14 1 5 Exhibit 693 119 1 6 9-11-69 Memo from E. Wheeler to Howard 1 7 Minckler 1 8 Tran 025637- 025638 19 2 0 Exhibit 694 12 0 2 1 9-25-69 memo from Dr. E.S. Tucker to R.E. 2 2 Keller 2 3 Tran 022055- 022056 24 2 5 Exhibit 695 12 2 Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003884 7 1 12-22-69 Meeting report from Monsanto 2 Chemicals Limited R & D Dept., Ruabon from 3 R.A. Lidge 11 4 Tran 023687- 023688 5 6 Exhibit 696 123 7 3-18-70 memo from R.E. Keller to R.A. 8 L idge t t 9 Tran 059702 10 1 1 Exhibit 697 124 1 2 3-24-70 document from E. Wheeler to H.S. 1 3 Bergen & J.E. Springgate 14 1 5 Exhibit 698 126 1 6 3-30-70 document from Papageorge 1 7 Tran 0001458- 0001470 18 1 9 Exhibit 699 129 2 0 Memo from Papageorge "Aroclor labeling" 2 1 Tran 0001516- 0001517 22 2 3 Exhibit 700 130 2 4 memo from R.E. Keller to Papageorge 2 5 SCM 038534- 038537 Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003885 1 2 Exhibit 701 132 3 10-6-70 document from W.B. Papageorge 4 Tran 003105- 003117 5 6 Exhibit 702 13 4 7 Memo from Papageorge, "PCB environmental 8 problem November status report" 9 Tran 003094- 003104 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8 Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003886 i 9 1 MARTIN FARRAR, 2 of lawful age, having been first duly sworn 3 to testify the truth, the whole truth, and 4 nothing but the truth in the case 5 aforesaid, deposes and says in reply to 6 oral interrogatories propounded as follows, 7 to - wit : 8 EXAMINATION 9 QUESTIONS BY MS. WELCH: 1 0 Q: Good morning, Dr. Farrar. 1 1 A: Good morning. 1 2 Q: My name is Dana Welch, and I 1 3 represent Transwestern Pipeline Company in 1 4 an action which has been styled 1 5 Transwestern Pipeline Company versus 1 6 Monsanto. Have you ever been deposed 1 7 before, Dr. Farrar? 1 8 A : Yes. 1 9 Q: In what case? 2 0 A: I can't remember the name of the 2 1 case, but it was concerning, phthalate 2 2 esters . 2 3 Q: It had nothing to do with PCBs? 2 4 A : No . 2 5 Q: One time have you been deposed? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 . WATER PCB-SD0000003887 ___________________________________________________________________________________ 1_0 1 A: I think probably twice. 2 Q: And what was the second- case? 3 A: More of the same phthalate esters. 4 Q: How long ago was that? 5 As Probably 20 years ago. That order 6 of magnitude. 7 Q: Was that during the time that you 8 were working for Monsanto? 9 A : Oh, yes. 1 0 Q: I'd like to start with a few 1 1 preliminaries, kind of the ground rules for 1 2 the deposition. Your attorney might have 1 3 explained them to you, but let me explain 1 4 them to you. First of all, even though 1 5 we're in an informal setting, you' 1 6 understand that you're under oath just as 1 7 you would be in a courtroom of law? 1 8 A: Yes. 1 9 Q: And the format of the deposition 2 0 is such that it's very important that we 2 1 help the court reporter, so I would ask you 2 2 to wait until I finish my questions until 2 3 you give your response, and I will try to 2 4 do the same. All responses have to be 2 5 oral, it has to be yes or no or else he Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003888 ___________________________________________________________________________________ 1_1 1 can't get it down on the transcript. If I 2 ask you a question, if you answer the 3 question I will assume that you understood 4 that question. Is that understood? 5 A : Yes. 6 Q: And I never mean to obfuscate or 7 confuse, so if you don't understand a 8 question, please ask meto rephrase it and 9 I'll be glad to. But if you do answer a 1 0 question, I will assume you understood the 1 1 question. At the time of trial -- or, 1 2 excuse me, let me go back. After the 1 3 transcript is prepared, you will have a 1 4 chance to review it and make any 1 5 corrections to that transcript. But I 1 6 should inform you that at the time of trial 1 7 if you give testimony and that testimony is 1 8 inconsistent with any corrections that you 1 9 -- anything you gave at your deposition, 2 0 or if the corrections have changed the 2 1 substance of the deposition, I or another 2 2 attorney from Transwestern may make 2 3 comments upon that deposition transcript or 2 4 upon any inconsistencies. Is that all 2 5 understood? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003889 i 12 1 A: Yes. No problem. 2 Q: Also, if you want to take a break 3 at any time, please tell me and we'll do 4 that. 5 As Thank you. 6 Q: Dr. Farrar, are you currently 7 working? 8 A: No. I'm retired from Monsanto 9 Company. I am serving with a consulting 1 0 group called Tel-Tech. 1 1 Q: When did you retire from Monsanto? 1 2 A: June 1, 1985. 1 3 Q: What does that consulting group 1 4 do? 1 5 A: It's a group that's organized with 1 6 headquarters in the twin cities, and they 1 7 have a number of, quote, experts, and I'm 1 8 one of their experts in plasticizers. And 1 9 this is done almost exclusively over the 2 0 telephone. Their clients have the 2 1 privilege of calling an expert for the 2 2 knowledge that he or she might have. And 23 that's how it works. . 2 4 Q: In what particular area is your 2 5 expertise regarding plasticizers? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003890 t ___________________________________________________________________________________ 1_3 1 A: Well, probably -- let me say 2 this, the technical side principally, but 3 with considerable association on the 4 business side, also. 5 Q: Is one of your clients Monsanto 6 Company ? 7 A: No longer. I was on a retainer by 8 Monsanto for a while after I retired. 9 Q: Until when? 1 0 A: For one year after I retired. 1 1 Q: What did that retainer consist of? 1 2 A: A number of days were available to 1 3 Monsanto for consultation on technical and 1 4 business matters, with the monthly 1 5 compensation provided. 1 6 Q: Since then you have not consulted 1 7 for Monsanto Company? 1 8 As No . 1 9 Q: Could you please tell me what your 2 0 educational background is, starting with 2 1 any undergraduate degree? 2 2 As Undergraduate degree from 2 3 Mississippi College, with a major in 2 4 chemistry in 1943. With a span of time in 2 5 Uncle Sam's Navy, I entered graduate school Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003891 14 1 at the University of Pittsburgh in the fall 2 of 1946, and completed the Ph.D degree in 3 the field of organic chemistry in the 4 spring of 1950. 5 Q: Any postgraduate work? 6 A : No . 7 Q: When did you begin to work at 8 Monsanto? 9 A: Immediately upon finishing the 1 0 Ph.D degree at the University of Pittsburgh 1 1 I joined Monsanto Company -- well, it was 1 2 Monsanto Chemical Company then, at the 1700 1 3 South Second Street location as a senior 1 4 research chemist in the organic chemicals 1 5 division research department. 1 6 Q: How long did you remain as a .1 7 senior research chemist? 1 8 A: I had -- I left Monsanto for a 1 9 period of slightly less than a year in 2 0 1954, and returned to Monsanto at their 2 1 request in 1955 as research group leader. 2 2 So, four years plus. 2 3 Q: How long did you remain as 2 4 research group leader? 2 5 A: I had research group leader Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St, Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003892 i ___________________________________________________________________________________ 1 5 1 responsibility in two or three different 2 areas from the period 1 9 5 5 until early 3 1 9 6 0. 4 Q: What job did you assume in 1 9 6 0 ? 5 A: Assistant research director for 6 the organic chemicals division research 7 department. 8 Q: How long did you stay in that 9 position? 1 0 A: I can only give you approximate 1 1 dates. But in the mid ' 60 ' s we basically 1 2 was sort of changing the title from 1 3 assistant research director to manager of 1 4 research. 1 5 Q: That was a title change only? 1 6 A: Well, there was an area of 1 7 responsibility change to some extent at 1 8 that point, also. 1 9 Q: And how did your area of 2 0 responsibility change? 2 1 A: I had responsibility for two more 2 2 business areas. 2 3 Q: What were your business areas when 2 4 you were assistant research director for 2 5 organic chemicals? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003893 16 1 A: Principally, plasticizers and 2 certain aspects of pilot plant work. 3 Q: What is a pilot plant? 4 A: Pilot plant is a unit that's 5 designed for the purpose of taking 6 laboratory chemistry and processes and 7 making a scaleup. You know, if you're 8 going from a small size reactor in a 9 laboratory which might be one liter in 1 0 size, you would go up to a 50, 100 or 200 1 1 gallon scale. So you're developing 1 2 engineering information for the purpose of 1 3 design and building and operating a full 1 4 scale plant. 1 5 Q: This is for new products? 1 6 A: New products or present products, 1 7 process improvements, for example, or 1 8 new processes for existing 1 9 products . 2 0 Q: And what were the two new business 2 1 areas that were added when you became 2 2 manager of research? 2 3 A: I had the responsibility for what 2 4 was called resin materials and paper 2 5 chemicals, in addition to plasticizers. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003894 i ___________________________________________________________________________________ 1_7 1 Q : If I use the term PCBs, are you 2 familiar with that term? 3 A : Yes. 4 Q: When, if ever, was the first time 5 that you had contact with the chemical PCB 6 in your job history at Monsanto? 7 A: Do you mean just knowledge of them 8 or actually firsthand working with them? 9 Q: Well, let's start with knowledge 1 0 of them. 1 1 A: I guess I probably had knowledge 1 2 of them from reading the Monsanto product 1 3 catalog as part of my indoctrination into 1 4 Monsanto in 1950. 1 5 Q: Do you recall what you read about 1 6 them? 1 7 A: That they were chemically 1 8 identified as chlorinated biphenyls and 1 9 terphenyls . 2 0 Q: Anything else? 2 1 A: That they were extremely 2 2 chemically inert. 2 3 Q: Did you ever read that they were 2 4 particularly stable compounds? . 2 5 A: Yes. Chemically inert, I guess Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003895 1 that's essentially the same thing. 2 Q: Do you recall reading anything 3 about the level of toxicity, if any, at 4 that time? 5 As No . 6 Q: Anything else that you recall from 7 that time? 8 A: No, nothing from that. 9 Q: When did you have firsthand job 1 0 responsibility for PCBs? 1 1 A: When I became assistant research 1 2 director for the area that included 1 3 plasticizers . 1 4 Q : And that was i n the mid '60's? 1 5 A : No , that was i n the early - 1 6 early in 1960. Assistant research 1 7 director, you said, right? 1 8 Q : Yes. 1 9 A: When I was in that position, my 2 0 department at that time had the overall 2 1 responsibility for the technology of 2 2 plasticizers. This includes new product 2 3 synthesis, process research and product 2 4 applications research. 2 5 Q: Did plasticizers at that time Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003896 19 1 contain PCBs? 2 A: Yes. There were plasticizers that 3 were -- there were PCBs that were sold 4 either as plasticizers or in plasticizer 5 formulations . 6 Q: What was your responsibility - 7 what were your areas of responsibility as 8 assistant research director for organic 9 chemicals? 1 0 A: For the overall technology of 1 1 plasticizers, including the types of work 1 2 that I just described, new product 1 3 synthesis, process research and product 1 4 applications research, which included 1 5 marketing technical service. 1 6 Q: Who did you market technical 1 7 service to? 1 8 A: Well, this is work done that's in 1 9 support of the marketing department where 2 0 there is a technical problem associated 2 1 with a -- with the performance of a 2 2 particular product. It was our 2 3 responsibility to provide the answers, 2 4 principally for the purpose of obtaining 2 5 the technical qualification of the product Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 . WATER PCB-SD0000003897 i ___________________________________________________________________________________ 2_0 1 in the customer's application. 2 Q: In this context you would have 3 contact with'customers? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Which customers in particular did 6 you have contact with at this time? 7 A: Plasticizer customers. 8 Q: Was NCR one of your customers at 9 this time? 1 0 A: I presume so. But I guess I'd 1 1 have to tell you, I do not specifically 1 2 remember NCR at that time. 1 3 Q: In the early ' 6 0 ' s ? 1 4 A : Yes. 1 5 Q: Any particular customers that you 1 6 do remembe r ? 1 7 A : Yes. 1 8 MR. PREUSS: At that time? 1 9 MS. WELCH: At that time. 2 0 A: At the time in the early ' 60 ' s 2 1 when I first became associated with ,, kI. . , ~ ]/ I 2 2 plasticizers as resistant research 2 3 director, yes. Kentile. 2 4 Q: How do you spell that'? 2 5 A: K-e-n-t-i-l-e. Armstrong Cork Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 . (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003898 i ________________________________________________________________________________________ 2_1_ 1 Company. Congoleum Industries. Monsanto 2 Company's plastics division. These are all 3 major customers employing our products for 4 which we had to provide the technical 5 qualification of our plasticizers in their 6 end use applications. 7 Q: Did any of these customers use 8 plasticizers that contain PCBs at this 9 time? 1 0 A: Not to the best of my knowledge, 1 1 no . 1 2 Q: They were all non-PCB-containing 1 3 plasticizers? 1 4 A: That's correct. Phthalate esters, 1 5 principally. 1 6 Q: What responsibility did you have, 1 7 if any, for PCB-containing products in the 1 8 early ' 6 0 ' s ? . 1 9 A: If any of the P C B - c o n t a i n i n g 2 0 products required product applications 2 1 research, I would have had responsibility 2 2 for that work, overall responsibility. 2 3 Now, personally, I have never really done 2 4 that kind of work with my own two hands. 2 5 Q: By your own two hands, is there an Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003899 i 2_2 1 inference that you had indirect contact 2 with that kind of work? 3 A: I had management responsibility 4 for that. But that particular group of 5 people was headed by a manager reporting to 6 me . 7 Q: Who was that manager? 8 As Mr. J.R. Darby, D-a-r-b-y. 9 Q: And this, again, is in the early 1 0 ' 60 ' s as assistant research group leader? 1 1 A: As assistant research director, 1 2 yes. 1 3 Q: Excuse me. When you assumed this 1 4 position in early 1960 as assistant 1 5 research director for organic chemicals, 1 6 did your understanding of polychlorinated 1 7 biphenyls increase? 1 8 A: Probably not. 1 9 Q: Why do you say probably not? 2 0 A: Because I really had very little 2 1 specific knowledge of the product 2 2 applications area in terms of details and 2 3 the occasion to increase my knowledge. I 2 4 supervised, I had the responsibility for 2 5 the management of that area, and the head Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003900 23 1 of that area reported to me. But he was a 2 well recognized world-wide expert in the 3 field of plasticizers and there was 4 essentially one hundred percent delegation 5 of responsibility to him for that. 6 Q: At this time, approximately what 7 of your time was spent 8 supervising PCB-containing product 9 applications? 1 0 A: As a guess, I would say less than 1 1 10 percent. 1 2 Q: So you assumed the position as 1 3 manager of research in the mid 19 6 0 ' s ? 1 4 A: Somewhere in that time frame, yes. 1 5 Q: And the two more business areas 1 6 that were added were resin materials and 1 7 paper materials, is that correct? 1 8 A: Paper chemicals, yes. Chemicals 1 9 used in the manufacture of paper. 2 0 Q: Did you gain any other or new 2 1 responsibilities for PCB-containing 2 2 products at this time? 2 3 A : No . Q: Did resin materials include PCB-containing products? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003901 ( ___________________________________________________________________________________ 2_4 1 As No . 2 Qs Did paper chemical materials 3 contain PCB products? 4 As No . 5 Qs How long did you stay in that 6 position? 7 As I was in that position for 8 approximately 10 years, I guess, with some 9 realignment of responsibilities during that 1 0 time frame. 1 1 Qs What was the realignment of 1 2 responsibilities? 1 3 A: The plasticizer business was 1 4 growing, the size of the research unit was 1 5 growing, and my work load was growing, and 1 6 the paper chemicals responsibility was spun .1 7 off to another assistant research director 1 8 -- another manager of research, I'm sorry. 1 9 Q: Was the result that more of your 2 0 time was spent on the plasticizer area? 2 1 A: Yes. That was the purpose of 2 2 making the realignment of responsibility. 2 3 Q: And what were your job 2 4 responsibilities in this job position? 2 5 A: Basically the same as I've Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003902 ___________________________________________________________________________________ 2_5 1 described earlier, except there was more of 2 it. We were making a substantial new 3 investment in plasticizer manufacturing 4 facilities, installing new technology, new 5 plants, so that there was a considerable 6 increase in work load in supervising, 7 managing the technology of plasticizers. 8 Q: During this time period did your 9 responsibility for PCB-containing products 1 0 increase? 1 1 A: At a given point in time the 1 2 decision was made by Monsanto corporate 1 3 management that we would phase out the use 1 4 of PCB in all plasticizer applications at 1 5 that point in time, yes, my time devoted to 1 6 that problem obviously increased. 1 7 Q: Let me clarify. Before the time 1 8 that there was the decision to phase out 1 9 PCBs, your contact with PCBs constituted 2 0 less than 10 percent of your whole work 2 1 time? 2 2 A: That's correct, yes. 2 3 Q: And after that time approximately 2 4 how much percentage of your time was spent 2 5 on PCB related products? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 , (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003903 26 1 A: For a period of time, the duration 2 of which I guess I don't remember exactly, 3 it probably went to 25 percent of my time. 4 Q: What was the remaining 75 percent 5 of your time spent on? 6 A: On the other plasticizer products, 7 and the resin material products. 8 Q: Do you recall when the decision 9 that you referred to was made to phase out 1 0 PCB-containing products in plasticizers? 1 1 A: I do not recall exactly when that 1 2 decision was made, no. 1 3 Qs Do you recall who told you about 1 4 the decision? 1 5 A : Yes. 1 6 Q : Who? 1 7 A: Mr. James E. Springgate. 1 8 Q: Did you have a reporting 1 9 relationship to him? 2 0 A: Yes. He was my immediate 2 1 superior. 2 2 Q: Was that during theperiod of time 2 3 that you were manager of research? 2 4 A : Yes. 2 5 Q: Can youexplain to me what the Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003904 27 1 line of supervision was when you were 2 manager of research? 3 A: Mr. Springgate was the business 4 group director for plasticizers. 5 Qs You reported to him? 6 A: As manager of research and 7 development and business development in 8 this case I reported directly to Mr. 9 Springgate. 1 0 Qs Did you have any direct reports to 1 1 you? 1 2 A : Yes. 1 3 Q: Who were they? 1 4 A: Oh, Mr. J.R. Darby was one. There 1 5 were several other research group leaders, 1 6 the names of whom -- I can't remember all 1 7 of the names of whom at that time. 1 8 Q: Why didyour area of 1 9 responsibility increase for PCB-containing 2 0 products at the time that there was the 2 1 decision made to withdraw PCB-containing 2 2 products from plasticizers? 2 3 A: Because there was a very 2 4 aggressive search for replacement products 2 5 in key applications of those sold as Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003905 i ___________________________________________________________________________________ 2_8 1 plasticizers. 2 Q: So, what was your area of 3 responsibility at the time the decision was 4 made? Was it to find replacement products? 5 As You meanwhat assignment was given 6 to me? 7 Q : Yes. 8 A: Yes. To find replacement products 9 for those PCBs that were going to be phased 1 0 out. 1 1 Q: Did Mr. Springgate explain to you 1 2 why the decision was made to phaseout 1 3 PCB-conta i ning plasticizers? 1 4 A : Yes. 1 5 Q: And what did he tell you? 1 6 A: That it was part of Monsanto's 1 7 corporate citizenship policy to discontinue 1 8 the sale of products that were judged to be 1 9 harmful to the environment. 2 0 Q: Did he tell you or did you gain 2 1 any other understanding of why PCBs were 2 2 judged to be harmful to the environment? 2 3 A: We discussed that, and I guess I 2 4 don't remember exactly the context of the 2 5 discussion, but there was a clear Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003906 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 .1 7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ___________________________________________________________________________________ 2_9 understanding that this was a line of products that should not be continued to be marketed as plasticizers. Q : Do you recall gaining the understanding around this time that there had been a finding that PCBs persisted in the environment? A: Persistence in the environment clearly was one of the reasons for this decision, yes. Q: Do you recall any other reasons for the decision? A: The best of my knowledge, that was the principal reason. Q: Do you recall if this discussion with Mr. Springgate occurred in or about 19 6 8 ? A: I really can't put a time on it. That's a long time back. Q: I'm aware of that. Now, during this period of time that there was a decision made to withdraw PCB-containing plasticizers, did you have contact with customers concerning this task? A : Yes. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 . WATER PCB-SD0000003907 i ___________________________________________________________________________________ 3_0 1 Qi Which customers? 2 A: We prioritized the products and 3 customers, and NCR was at the top of the 4 list. 5 Q : Why was that? 6 A : Because in our judgment that 7 probably represented the best threat of 8 PCBs to the environment. 9 Q : Why was that? 1 0 A: Because the NCR paper contained 1 1 PCBs and that was, quote, an open system. 1 2 Q : How do you define open system? 1 3 A : One that the PCB is not enclosed 1 4 in a container that can be kept tightly 1 5 closed, and, hence, could be used - the 1 6 container prevented the PCBs from being 1 7 discharged into the environment. 1 8 Q : Was NCR a major customer? 1 9 A : Yes, very clearly. The principal 2 0 customer in the U.S. 2 1 Q: For the plasticizer group or for 2 2 PCBs as a whole? 2 3 A: For the plasticizer PCBs. 2 4 Q: Do you know what percentage, of the 2 5 plasticizer business NCR was? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 , (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003908 i ___________________________________________________________________________________ 3_1 1 As Not specifically, no. 2 Q: Do you know if it was more than 50 3 percent? 4 A: Oh, no. It was a much smaller 5 fraction. The plasticizer business had 6 grown, the polyester side had grown 7 considerably, such that the PCB business 8 was a relatively small fraction, but I 9 don't know the number. 1 0 Q: In terms of the PCB plasticizer 1 1 business, was NCR larger than 50 percent of 1 2 that plasticizer PCB business? 1 3 A: Could I restate the question? 1 4 MR. PREUSS: If you don't 1 5 understand hers. 1 6 MS. WELCH: See if you can try. 1 7 A: Okay. Let me ask you a question. 1 8 Are you asking did NCR represent more than 1 9 50 percent of the carbonless carbon paper 2 0 market, is that the question? 2 1 Q: Well, were there any other 2 2 applications for PCB-containing 2 3 plasticizers, let's start with that, 2 4 besides carbonless carbon paper? 2 5 A : Yes. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003909 ___________________________________________________________________________________ 3_2 1 Q : What other applications were 2 those? 3 A: They were used as plasticizers in 4 traffic paint, as plasticizers in other 5 forms -- other types of coatings. And 6 although not technically a PCB, it's really 7 a PCT, Aroclor 5 4 6 0 was a tackif ier in hot 8 melt adhesives. 9 Q: Now, of that total business, the 1 0 traffic paint, other types of coating and 1 1 the terphenyls, I believe that's what you 1 2 were - 1 3 A: Polychlorinated terphenyl, PCT. 1 4 Q: What percentage of the business 1 5 was for NCR? 1 6 A: I don't know that number. 1 7 Q: Was it the greatest -- they were 1 8 the largest customer, however, of the 1 9 PCB-containing plasticizers? 2 0 A: I really don't know if they were 2 1 the largest customer or not. They were a 2 2 significant customer. 2 3 Q: And did they purchase the PCBs and 2 4 then incorporate it into their paper as an 2 5 end product? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003910 33 1 As YYeess.. 2 Q: Do you know if they had their own 3 manufacturing plants? 4 As Yes, they did. 5 Q ; To produce the carbonless carbon 6 paper? 7 As Yes. 8 Qs What wasyour role in the 9 development of the alternative to the 1 0 PCB - containing carbonless carbon paper? 1 1 As My role was to assign personnel to 1 2 develop a test methodology and develop 1 3 alternate products that would perform 1 4 satisfactorily in their application. And I 1 5 represented the principal technical 1 6 interface. I personally represented the 1 7 principal technical interface with NCR. 1 8 Qs Do you recall that the carbonless 1 9 carbon paper contained an Aroclor that was 2 0 numbered 1242? 2 1 As Yes. 2 2 Qs So, in this context you had 2 3 contact with NCR, is that correct? 24 A s Yes . . 2 5 Qs Do you recall when you first, or Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003911 34 1 anyone else from Monsanto first informed 2 NCR that Monsanto would be withdrawing the 3 PCB-containing products? 4 A: I do not recall the specific date, 5 no . 6 Q: Do you have any recollection of 7 the initial reaction to being informed that 8 there would be a withdrawal? 9 A: I do not recall a specific 1 0 reaction of NCR. 1 1 Q: Do you know whether NCR contacted 1 2 Monsanto first regarding replacement or 1 3 whether Monsanto contacted NCR first? 1 4 A: My recollection is that Monsanto 1 5 contacted NCR first. 1 6 Q: Do you recall who else was 1 7 involved in the reformulation of a 1 8 non - PCB-containing product for NCR? 1 9 A: Within Monsanto? 2 0 Q: Yes, within Monsanto. 2 1 A: Yes. The principal investigator 2 2 was Dr. J.K. Sears. 2 3 Q: Anyone else? 2 4 A: His group leader was Mr. Norman 2 5 Touchette, T-o-u-c-h-e-t-t-e, and the Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003912 35 1 manager of that department was Mr. J.R. 2 Da rby . - 3 Q s Do you recall who besides yourself 4 had contact with NCR regarding the reasons 5 for the change, or any technical work with 6 the change? 7 A: Dr. Cumming Paton. Mr. Pete 8 Maier, M-a-i-e-r. Mr. Will Clark, not of 9 the San Francisco Giants. 1 0 Q: The almost former San Francisco 1 1 Giants . 1 2 A : Right. 1 3 Q : Any oneelse? 1 4 A: Those are the only names that I 1 5 remember specifically. ' 1 6 Q: Earlier you described that Mr. 1 7 Springgate told you that there was an issue 1 8 with PCBs, the environmental impact of 1 9 PCBs, and that was the reason for the 2 0 withdrawal, is that correct? 2 1 A : Yes. 2 2 Q: Did you ever become aware at that 2 3 time that PCBs were being found in tissue 2 4 samples taken from marine organisms? 2 5 A : Yes. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003913 I ___________________________________________________________________________________ 3_6 1 Q : And how did you become aware of 2 that? 3 As Through the reading of reports 4 that were published and circulated by other 5 investigators in Monsanto on the PCB issue. 6 Q: Do you have any recollection of 7 any specific names of these reports or 8 researchers ? 9 A: Principally, Dr. Robert E. Keller. 1 0 Q: He was a Monsanto employee? 1 1 A : Yes. 1 2 Q: Do you recall what you read that 1 3 Dr. Keller wrote? 1 4 A: Well, I think the whole subject 1 5 can best be described by the word 1 6 bioaccumulation. 1 7 Q: Can you explain to me what you 1 8 mean by bioaccumulation? 1 9 A: Living organisms in waters that 2 0 contain PCB, like fish, as this water flows 2 1 through the gills of the fish, through 2 2 their life support mechanism, somehow the 2 3 PCBs are absorbed principally into the 2 4 fatty tissue and concentration increased by 2 5 significant amounts. This is true of other Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003914 i ___________________________________________________________________________________ 3_7 1 organisms besides fish, also. 2 Q: Do you recall hearing this about 3 the same time as you had the conversation 4 with Dr. Springgate, or Mr. Springgate? 5 A: Generally, the same time frame, 6 yes. 7 Q: Were these internal Monsanto 8 reports that you read? 9 A: They were internal Monsanto 1 0 reports, but there were also reports in the 1 1 general scientific literature. 1 2 Q: Do you have any recollection of 1 3 the names of any of those researchers or 1 4 reports? 1 5 A: Only the two Swedish 1 6 investigators, those names come to my mind, 1 7 Widmark and Jensen. 1 8 Q: Do you recall approximately when 1 9 you heard of that work? 2 0 A: All during the same general time 2 1 frame. And I can't recall -- you know, how 2 2 long is this time frame? I really don't 2 3 know. 2 4 Q: I'd like to introduce and mark as. 2 5 Exhibit 680 the following document. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003915 38 1 (Deposition Exhibit Number 2 680 mark'd for identification). 3 MS. WELCH; Exhibit 680 is a two 4 page document dated March 4, 1 9 6 9 that 5 purports to be a memorandum from E.S. 6 Tucker to W.R. Richard, and Dr. Farrar is 7 cc'd on it. The identifying stamp is Tran 8 0 5 9 4 3 8 to 0 5 9 4 3 9. Dr. Farrar, if you could 9 take a few minutes to review this exhibit. 1 0 Do you recall seeing this document before? 1 1 A: Not specifically, no. 1 2 Q: Did Dr. Tucker have any reporting 1 3 relationship to you? 1 4 A: No direct reporting relationship, 1 5 no . 1 6 Q: Any indirect? 1 7 A: He reported to Dr. Keller, who was 1 8 in charge of this wholeapplied sciences 1 9 research group, and each of the business 2 0 unit research departments used the service 2 1 of Dr. Keller's group. 2 2 Q: So, you were more or less his 2 3 client in that sense? 2 4 A : Ye s . . 2 5 Q: But he also, as far as you know, Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003916 I ____________________________________________________________________________________3 9 1 lent support to other business groups? 2 A : Yes. 3 Q: How about Dr. Richard, did you 4 have any reporting relationship with or to 5 Dr. Richard? 6 A: Dr. Richard was my counterpart for 7 the functional fluids business group. 8 Q: Does reading this document refresh 9 your recollection about the time in which 1 0 you first heard that PCBs were a concern in 1 1 the environment? 1 2 A: I see the date on the document. I 1 3 guess it doesn't specifically trigger my 1 4 memory to say that's when it actually 1 5 occurred. 1 6 Q: Would you say that this would be a 1 7 fair approximation of the time period that 1 8 it actually occurred? 1 9 As I guess I really do not have 2 0 specific memory on that issue, and I 2 1 couldn't conclude that. 2 2 Q: Do you recall any specific 2 3 discussions other than the ones where you 2 4 recounted about one of the issues that's 2 5 raised here, in other words, that there was Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 . WATER PCB-SD0000003917 ___________________________________________________________________________________ 40 1 observed distribution of polychlorinated 2 biphenyls in tissue samples taken from 3 marine organisms? 4 A: Nothing beyond what I've already 5 described, no. 6 Q: Do you recall knowing or having 7 any discussions that global 8 eco - distribution of these materials occurs 9 via aerial transport? 1 0 MR. PREUSS: Let me just state 1 1 that the paragraph starts out with 1 2 "proposed" as a prefacing remark. I object 1 3 to the mischaracterization of the exhibit. 1 4 A: And I have no specific 1 5 recollection of that. 1 6 MS. WELCH: Turn to the second 1 7 page. Do you recall knowing about this 1 8 time that Aroclor underwent little, if any, 1 9 decomposition when it was burned? 20 MR. PREUSS: Let me also object, 2 1 the prefacing remark is "Under the 2 2 conditions of this experiment". 2 3 A: I do not recall this document or 2 4 the conclusions that are stated in it from 2 5 my direct experience. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003918 ___________________________________________________________________________________ 4JL 1 MS. WELCH: Did you ever hear that 2 there was a concern about NCR carbonless 3 carbon paper, what would happen with the 4 Aroclors when the carbon paper was burned? 5 A: Not specifically. Because I think 6 we were focusing principally on discharge 7 to aqueous streams. 8 Q: How would that discharge occur 9 from carbonless carbon paper? 1 0 A: When the carbonless carbon paper 1 1 was recovered and recycled. 1 2 Q: Could you explain that further to 1 3 me? 1 4 A: Recovery of waste paper was 1 5 occurring during this time frame. It's 1 6 much more predominant today, I would say. 1 7 But waste carbonless carbon paper would be 1 8 recovered from offices and other places and 1 9 sent to a paper recovery company that would 2 0 take this paper and, with high energy 2 1 mixing, break down the paper sheet back to 2 2 the celulose fibers. 2 3 Q: What would occur with the paper at 2 4 that point? 2 5 A: It would become fiber and it would Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003919 .I ________________________________________________________________________________________4 2 1 be reused in the manufacture of paper and 2 paper board. 3 Q: How would that end up in aqueous 4 streams? 5 A: Components of that paper, other 6 than celulose fiber, would most likely be 7 dispersed in the aqueous slurry. 8 Q: Is that through the manufacturing 9 process or the recycling process? 1 0 A: That's through the depulping 1 1 process, if you will, repulping process. 1 2 Q: So that would occur in or around 1 3 the production facilities where this 1 4 breaking down process occurred? 1 5 A: It would occur in the production 1 6 facility of the paper recycling company. 1 7 Q: Were there any other concerns 1 8 about what would happen to the carbonless 1 9 carbon paper that had PCBs in it other than 2 0 the impact on the aqueous streams? 2 1 A: That was the principal concern. 2 2 Q: Have you ever heard of the work of 2 3 somebody by the name of Dr. Robert 2 4 Risebrough? 2 5 A : No . Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003920 43 1 Q : Did you ever hear of any work in 2 the bay area concerning finding PCBs in 3 Peregrine Falcon eggs? 4 A: I think that was part of the 5 original premise of Widmark and Jensen. 6 Q: When you heard about the Widmark 7 and Jensen report, did you question the 8 findings? 9 A: I really did not study the Widmark 1 0 and Jensen publications to any significant 1 1 extent. I had no basis -- no technical 1 2 expertise or basis to question their 1 3 findings . 1 4 Q: Did you generally accept their 1 5 findings? 1 6 A: I'd say my response was neutral. 1 7 Q: Please mark this as Exhibit 681. 1 8 (Deposition Exhibit Number 1 9 681 mark'd for identification)? 2 0 MS. WELCH: Exhibit 681 purports 2 1 to be a memorandum from C. Paton, dated 2 2 April 1 6, 1 9 6 9 to the file. A number of 2 3 cc's, including Dr. Farrar. Identifying 2 4 stamp is Tran 0 0 9 7 2 3 to Tran 0 0 9 7 2 7. 2 5 Please take a few minutes to review this Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003921 I ___________________________________________________________________________________ 4_4 1 document. Okay. Dr. Farrar, does this 2 refresh your recollection about the time 3 period in which replacements for the 4 PCB-containing carbonless carbon paper were 5 being considered? 6 A: Yes, I see the date here, April 7 18, 1969. 8 Q: So, does that help refresh your 9 recollection in any sense about the time 1 0 period in which you heard that 1 1 PCB-containing products would be 1 2 discontinued, as far as plasticizers were 1 3 concerned? 1 4 A: I don't know that -- I don't know 1 5 which side of this date the official 1 6 decision was made to discontinue PCBs, 1 7 before this date or after this date. 1 8 Q: Turning to page 3 of the document, 1 9 in the middle of the paragraph that's 2 0 enumerated 2, or the point that's 2 1 enumerated 2, there is a reference to 2 2 replacements for Aroclor tested. Were the 2 3 replacements for Aroclor tested, as far as 2 4 you know, after the decision'had been made 2 5 to discontinue PCB-containing carbonless Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003922 i ____________________ ______________________________________________________________ 4 5 1 carbon paper? 2 A; I cannot remember specifically 3 whether the decision was made before they 4 were given samples or afterward. 5 Q: Do you recall any other reasons 6 why replacements for the carbonless carbon 7 paper, PCB-containing carbonless carbon 8 paper were being developed other than 9 because of concerns about PCBs in the 1 0 environment? 1 1 A: I think this document gives some 1 2 information on that. This is page 2, about 1 3 one-third of the way down. "NCR are always 1 4 anxious to find replacements for Aroclor 1 5 1 2 4 2 to get a lower cost, second source of 1 6 supply and lower odor". 1 7 Q: Do you recall whether Monsanto was 1 8 working on a replacement because of those 1 9 reasons? 2 0 A: The reasons cited here were 2 1 probably the basis upon which, from time to 2 2 time, samples were being submitted to NCR. 2 3 Q: You were not present at this 2 4 meeting, were you? 2 5 A: I do not recall being present. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003923 1 ___________________________________________________________________________________ 4_6 1 And I guess, according to the memo itself, 2 I was not present. 3 Qs Did you have any discussions with 4 anybody about this meeting? 5 A: I can't recall that I discussed 6 this particular meeting with anyone, no. 7 Q: Turning to the paragraph on the 8 first page which talks about "The meeting 9 began by referring to previous publicity on 1 0 Aroclors being identified in birds," and it 1 1 refers to Jensen's and Widmark's work of 1 2 two to three years ago, do you recall any, 1 3 discussions they any of the Monsanto 1 4 personnel who were at this meeting 1 5 discussions think may have had with NCR 1 6 about that reference? 1 7 A : No . 1 8 Q: Did you have any reporting 1 9 relationship to Dr. Paton at this time? 2 0 A : No . 2 1 Q: Did you have any indirect 2 2 reporting relationship to Dr. Paton? 2 3 A: I had a working- relationship, but 2 4 no reporting relationship. He was in the 2 5 marketing department, I was in the research Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003924 ___________________________________________________________________________________ 41_ 1 and development department. 2 Q: Was he in the marketing department 3 for plasticizers, as far as you know? 4 A : Yes. 5 Q: What was the relationship between 6 research and development for plasticizers 7 and the marketing department for 8 plasticizers? 9 A: Product applications research and 1 0 marketing technical service was provided by 1 1 the research and development department, my 1 2 department. 1 3 Q: So, did you have meetings with 1 4 people from the marketing department, 1 5 including Dr. Paton at this time? X 6 A: Some. But I was not the principal 1 7 participant in those kinds of meetings. 1 8 Mr. J.R. Darby spent a considerable amount 1 9 of his time doing this. 2 0 Q: Did you ever have contacts with a 2 1 Mr. Elmer Wheeler at this time? 2 2 A: Somewhere in the course of the 2 3 overall PCB issue, yes, I was in meetings 2 4 with Elmer Wheeler.. I can't remember the 2 5 specific times, though. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003925 i 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 .1 7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 48 Q: Did Mr. Wheeler ever tell you or did you ever find out about any discussions that he had with somebody from NCR about the PCB issue? A: I cannot recall that. Q: So, you never heard about anything that's referred to in this memo about any discussions between Mr. Wheeler and anybody from NCR that might have allayed NCR's fears? A : No . Q: Do you have any understanding about what fears are being referred to in this document? A: Not really, no. Q: Have you ever heard of a product by the name of MCS 153 or Turbinol 153? A : No . Q: Did you have any contact with any of the products that were the responsibility of the functional fluid group? A: Only to the extent that some of the plasticizer products were formulated into products that were sold by the Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003926 i 49 1 functional fluids group. 2 Q: Which products were those? 3 A: Principallyesters . 4 Q: Do you know what the application 5 for the phthalate esters was? 6 A: Yes. For example, Skydraul is a 7 -jrih-t-h-adrart' e ester. 8 Q: Anyothers? *TV * >< r-\ i 9 A: Some of the t r i a'r 6 p hosphates 1 0 manufactured and sold as plasticizers were 1 1 also used as functional fluids. 1 2 Q: Now, why was the phthalate ester 1 3 considered a plasticizer product? 1 4 A: It has the classical plasticizer 15 properties that you're seeking. ' 1 6 Q: Does that mean it's manufactured 1 7 in a particular plant or just that that 1 8 product group has responsibility for the 1 9 development of that product? 2 0 A: I'm sorry, I don't understand the 2 1 question. 2 2 Q: I'm trying to understand whether 2 3 there are specific Monsanto plants that 2 4 manufacture plasticizer products or whether 2 5 its classification as a plasticizer just Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 . (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003927 _______________________ ____________________________________________________________ 5 0 1 referred to which business group had the 2 responsibility for the product? 3 A: Certain manufacturing units would 4 provide products that would be sold by 5 plasticizers and functional fluids coming 6 from the same plant. 7 Q : I see. So, by referring to it as 8 one of the plasticizer products, does that 9 mean that your technical group had 1 0 responsibility for the development of the 1 1 phthalate ester? 1 2 A: We had the technical 1 3 responsibility for the manufacture of the 1 4 product, yes. And the product was sold by 1 5 my business group to the functional fluids 1 6 business group on a negotiated transfer 1 7 price. 1 8 Q: Do you have any knowledge of the ft; V'; ` ^ , 1 9 development of phthalat'e esters as 2 0 replacement fluids in about 1971, 1972 for 2 1 gas compressors? 2 2 A: No. I can't remember anything 2 3 there. 2 4 Q: Please mark this next exhibit as 2 5 Exhibit 682. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003928 ___________________________________________________________________________________ 5JL 1 (Deposition Exhibit Number 2 6 8 2 mark'd for identification) . 3 MS. WELCH: Exhibit 682 appears to 4 be handwritten notes with a date of 5 12/16/1969, with the identifying stamp of 6 Tran 025724 to Tran 025731. It appears to 7 refer to NCR, the top left-hand corner, 8 with the names of Gordon Taylor and Ned 9 Thacker and MC with various names, 1 0 including that of Dr. Farrar. First, Dr. 1 1 Farrar, just as a foundational question, is 1 2 this your handwriting? 1 3 A : No . 1 4 Q: Could you please take a few 1 5 minutes to review these notes. Okay. Do 1 6 you recall attending a meeting with NCR in 1 7 Dec emb e r 1 9 6 9 ? 1 8 A: Not specifically on that date, no. 1 9 Q: Do you recall any meetings you 2 0 ever attended with NCR? 2 1 A: I recall that, indeed, I did 2 2 attend a number of meetings with NCR. This 2 3 specific meeting, I do- not have 2 4 recollection of. The routing initials over 2 5 on the left, by the way, are mine. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003929 1 Q : The routing initials? 52 2 A: NWT , JKS, RHM, MWF . 3 Q: Do you know who NWT stands for? 4 A: Yes, Norman W. Touchette. J.K. 5 Sears, Robert H. Mills. Back to me. 6 Q: Those are people who worked for T-j you in the research department? 8 A: Yes. JKS, Dr. Sears was the 9 technical expert who had the specific 1 0 problem of identifying a test method and an 1 1 alternate product that would be suitable 1 2 for NCR. 1 3 Q: Well, before we discuss that 1 4 document, I'd like to introduce another 1 5 document as Exhibit 683. 1 6 (Deposition Exhibit Number 1 7 683 mark'd for identification) . 1 8 MS. WELCH: Exhibit 683 is a two 1 9 page document from Cumming Paton to Dr. 2 0 Farrar and Mr. Wheeler. Its dated November 2 1 17, 1969, and it's identifying stamp is 2 2 Tran 024977 to Tran 024978. Please take a 2 3 minute to review this document. First of 2 4 all,? Is'this your handwriting in the 2 5 margin is this your handwriting? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003930 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 .1 7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 53 A ; No . Q: Does this help refresh your recollection about the December meeting with NCR? A: I can recall having a number of meetings with NCR. I guess I do not remember specifically the meeting that's referred to here on the schedule for December 16th, I guess it is. Q: Turning to the second page, the reference to the research department starting their work on NCR back in March, does that help refresh your recollection about when you started looking for replacement products for NCR? A: I understand what this memo says. I guess that does not specifically trigger in my mind that that is exactly when it began. Q: Have you ever seen -- do you recall seeing this memo before? A: No, not specifically. I can't say that I recall seeing this memo before, until today. Q: In the Monsanto system of Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003931 I ___________________________________________________________________________________ 5_4 1 distribution of memos, did you generally 2 expect to receive memos that were directed 3 to you? Was there a fairly efficient 4 delivery system? 5 A: We had a maildeliverysystem that 6 was reasonably good, yes. 7 Q: Do you have any reason to doubt 8 that you saw this memo? 9 A: I have no reason to doubt it, no. 1 0 It's just that I don't remember it. 1 1 Q: Turning toExhibit 682, then, you 1 2 have no specific recollection of this 1 3 meeting, but you do recall having met with 1 4 people from NCR during this time period, is 1 5 thatcorrect? ' 1 6 A: On a number of occasions. I can't 1 7 specifically identify the time frame, 1 8 starting when, beginning when, no. 1 9 Q: Do you recall ever going to Dayton 2 0 for a meeting? 2 1 A : Oh, yes. 2 2 Q: And that was NCR's headquarters? 2 3 A : Yes. 24 Q: Do you know if NCR had a . 2 5 manufacturing plant in Great Britain? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 . (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003932 I 1 A j I do not know if they did or not. 2 Q : In your contacts with NCR, did you 3 generally try to convey to them whatever 4 you knew about the PCB issue in the 5 environment? 6 A: My focus was principally on the 7 performance of products that we had 8 submitted to NCR as replacements for 9 Aroclor 1242. 1 0 Q: Was there anyone who you worked 1 1 with in the context with NCR who was 1 2 specifically charged with the 1 3 responsibility of imparting knowledge about 1 4 PCBs in the environment? 1 5 A: That likely would have been 1 6 product management in marketing. 1 7 Q: That would be -- of the 1 8 individuals referred to here, who was in 1 9 product marketing management? 2 0 A: Dr. Paton. 2 1 Q: Do you know if this is his 2 2 handwriting? 2 3 A: I really do not know. 2 4 Q: You don't know whose handwriting 2 5 it is? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003933 I ___________________________________________________________________________________ 5_6 1 A: No, I don't recognize it. But I'm 2 not very good at handwriting expertise. 3 Q: Who is E. Wilde, do you know? 4 A: Yes. Gene Wilde was the regional 5 manager for that district that covered S Dayton, Ohio. 7 Q: And Pete Maier? 8 A: Pete Maier was a field salesman 9 with the NCR account, reporting to Gene 1 0 Wilde, yes. 1 1 Q: Do you recall a man by the name of 1 2 Gordon Taylor? 1 3 As Yes. Gordon Taylor was the 1 4 general manager of this particular division 1 5 of NCR. 1 6 Q: And how about Ned Thacker? 1 7 A: My recollection is that Ned 1 8 Thacker was a member of the technical team 1 9 at NCR. 2 0 Q: Do you recall any discussion with 2 1 NCR about publicity regarding PCBs during 2 2 this time period, whether it was at this 2 3 meeting or another meeting? 2 4 A : No . 2 5 Q: Do you recall reading an article Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003934 57 1 in Environment regarding PCBs? 2 A j No . 3 Q: How about an article in Nature, 4 the Irish Sea Incident? 5 A : No . 6 Q: Do you recall seeing any article 7 in the Daily Telegram about PCBs? 8 A : No . 9 Q: Do you recall knowing at this time 1 0 period that the United Kingdom was 1 1 monitoring PCB levels in British waters? 1 2 A : No . 1 3 Q: Do you recall knowing during this 1 4 time period, and this is in the end of 1 5 1969, that Aroclor 1242 contained many 1 6 PCBs, principally tri and some, I believe, 1 7 mono-di-tetra, and I can't read the last 1 8 one? 1 9 A: I recall knowing that Aroclor 1242 2 0 was a mixture of several different chemical 2 1 species, yes. 2 2 Q: Do you recall knowing that some of 2 3 that mixture included biphenyls of tetra 2 4 andhigher? . A: I do not recall the specific Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003935 i ___________________________________________________________________________________ 5_8 1 chemical species that might have been 2 present in Aroclor 1242. 3 Q: Do you recall knowing or hearing 4 any discussion about discussions with the 5 U.K. Ministry of Health regarding telling 6 them about Aroclor 1254 and 1260 only as 7 referred to in this document? 8 A : No . 9 Q: You have no knowledge of why there 1 0 was a focus on 1 2 5 4 or 1 2 6 0 at that point? 1 1 A : No . 1 2 Q : Do you recall a discussion with 1 3 NCR about Aroclor 1242 biodegradation at 1 4 about this time? 1 5 As No. 1 6 Q: Do you have any understanding of 1 7 what's meant by Aroclor 1242 1 8 biodegradation? Again, I'm referring to 1 9 your understanding as of the end of 1 9 6 9. 2 0 A: Biodegradation? 2 1 Q : Yes. 2 2 A: Is that the appropriate word? 2 3 Q : Yes. 2 4 A: I can recall only in general terms 2 5 the biodegradation data that supported the Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003936 I ___________________________________________________________________________________ 5 9 1 viewpoint that it is, indeed, persistent in 2 the environment. 3 Q: Where did you get this knowledge 4 from? 5 A: From, I'd say principally reports 6 emanating from Dr. Keller's department, and 7 the fact that it was being found in many 8 different places. 9 Q: Did you have knowledge, and this 1 0 is referring to on page 2, of the few 1 1 thousand samples in Monsanto's lab? 1 2 A : No . 1 3 Q: Did you have any knowledge that 1 4 there was a department that was sampling 1 5 various organisms for the presence of PCBs 1 6 at that time? 1 7 A: What do you mean by a department? 1 8 Q: A department within Monsanto? 1 9 A: Within Monsanto? I can't recall 2 0 whether there was or not. 2 1 Q: Do you remember discussions with 2 2 Dr. Keller about the sampling of biological 2 3 material for the presence of PCBs? 24 A: I don't recall specific . 2 5 discussions with Dr. Keller on that. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 . (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003937 _________________________i_______________________________________________________________6_0 1 Q: How about anybody else? 2 A : No . 3 Q; Do you recall anybody at NCR 4 telling you that they were concerned about 5 the publicity regarding PCBs? 6 A: No. The meetings and 7 conversations I had with NCR were 8 essentially a hundred percent technical 9 matters . 10 Q: Well, this meeting appears to 1 1 discuss more than technical matters, is 1 2 that not true? 1 3 MR. PREUSS: You mean is that what 1 4 the notes indicate? 1 5 MS. WELCH: Yes. 1 6 MR. PREUSS: The document speaks 1 7 for itself. 1 8 A : Yes. 1 9 MS. WELCH: So, you were present 2 0 at meetings where there were more than 2 1 discussion about technical matters? 2 2 A: I don'trecall being at this 2 3 meeting. 2 4 Q: Do you doubt that you were at this 2 5 meeting? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003938 i ___________________________________________________________________________________ 61 1 Aj I can't remember whether I was or 2 not. 3 Q: Turning to page 3, do you recall 4 any discussion with NCR about effluent 5 information? 6 A : No . 7 Q: How about the issue of Aroclor as 8 a liver-kidney toxin? 9 A: I don't recall any specific 1 0 discussion on that. 1 1 Q: Do you recall knowing that Aroclor 1 2 was a liver-kidney toxin at the time? 1 3 A : No . 1 4 Q: Or at any time subsequently? 1 5 A: No. I really have no expertise in 1 6 t oxic o1ogy. 1 7 Q: How about in the context of 1 8 developing product applications, did 1 9 anybody discuss with you the toxicology of 2 0 PCBs ? 2 1 A: In the course of developing 2 2 replacement products, is that the 2 3 question? 2 4 Q: Or any of the work that you did - 2 5 with PCBs, whether it's as a manager of PCB Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 ' WATER PCB-SD0000003939 l ___________________________________________________________________________________ 6_2 1 products or the development of replacement 2 products. 3 A; I do hot recall that toxicity was 4 the key issue. 5 Q ! You recall that persistence was 6 the key issue? 7 A: Persistence. 8 Q: Do you recall any discussion about 9 Aroclors as a toxin at all? 1 0 A : No . 1 1 Q: Do you recall any discussion about 1 2 the toxicity to plankton and various other 1 3 bottom feeders? 1 4 A: I cannot recall any specific 1 5 discussion on that. 1 6 Q: Turning to page 5, do you know 1 7 wha t MIPB is? 1 8 A: It is a designation for a product 1 9 nominally called monoisopropy 1 biphenyl. 2 0 Q: Is that one of the replacement 2 1 products for NCR? 2 2 A: Yes. That was one of the leading 2 3 candidates . 2 4 Q: Did that contain PCBs? A : No . Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003940 I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 .1 7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ___________________________________________________________________________________ 6J3 Q: What other replacement products were being considered? A : H B - 4 O' is the other principal replacement candidate that I can remember. There were literally dozens of products tested. These are the two survivors in our program. Q: Do you know whether NCR ever adopted either of them? A: Yes, I think NCR did adopt -- NCR U.S. adopted MIPB. Q: Is there an NCR outside of the U.S. that adopted something else? A: A principal licensee of NCR in the U . K . , Wiggins Teapc adopted HB- 40 . Q: Do you know if Wiggins Teapc produces the product in the U.K.? MR. PREUSS: You mean at that time was it producing it? MS . WELCH : Yes. 1 9 6 9. A: Which product? Q: First of all, was it producing carbonless carbon paper prior to 1969 in the U.K.? MR. PREUSS: Using 1242 as a Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003941 l ___________________________________________________________________________________ 6_4 1 c omp o n e n t ? 2 MS . WELCH : Yes. 3 A: Wiggins Teapc was a licensee of 4 NCR, and I'm reasonably certain under the 5 provisions of that license they were 6 producing carbonless carbon paper in the 7 United Kingdom. 8 Q: Do you know when NCR adopted MIPB? 9 A: I don't know the specific date or 1 0 a narrow time frame. During this entire 1 1 process, which was -- from the perspective 1 2 of the plasticizer business was a 1 3 relatively short duration, NCR did adopt 1 4 MIPB. 1 5 Q: By relatively short duration, do 1 6 you mean that it ended sometime very 1 7 shortly after this December 1969 date? 1 8 A: I can't put a specific date on 1 9 it. My recollection is that from start to 2 0 finish the search for replacement products 2 1 by the plasticizer business group and the 2 2 adoption of alternate products by customers 2 3 occurred within a period of, say, a year, 2 4 giveortake. ' 2 5 Q: Was a very high priority placed on Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003942 _______________________ ____________________________________________________________ 6_5 1 developing a replacement product? 2 A: The NCR replacement product 3 received very high priority in my 4 department, yes. 5 Q: That was because of the concerns 6 with the persistence in the environment? 7 A : Yes. 8 Q: Do you know what BP means, where 9 it refers to "Different BP-would have to be 1 0 specifically designed"? 1 1 A: I would guess that's biphenyl, but 1 2 I really don't know. 1 3 Q: Okay. I don't want you to guess. 1 4 Turning to page 6, do you recall Aroclor 1 5 1238 or 1239 being considered as a 1 6 replacement product for NCR? 1 7 A: No, I do not recall that. 1 8 Q: Do you recall knowing that 1238 or 1 9 1 2 3 9 had virtually no tetra or penta 2 0 content ? 2 1 A: I do not recall that. 2 2 Q: I'mintroducing Exhibit 684. 2 3 (Deposition Exhibit Number 2 4 6 8 4 mark'd for identification) . 2 5 MS. WELCH: Exhibit 6 8 4 is a one Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003943 i ___________________________________________________________________________________ 6_6 1 page document that purports to be a 2 memorandum from J.D. Wright to a number of 3 recipients, including Dr. Farrar, dated May4 26, 1970. And the identifying stamp is 5 Tran 0 8 5 2 7 2. Please take a moment to 6 review this document. Do you recall seeing 7 this document before? 8 A: I don't recall seeing this 9 document, no. 1 0 Q: Do you recall attending the 1 1 meeting that's refered to in this document? 1 2 A: I have no -- I have no specific 1 3 recollection of attending this meeting. 1 4 Q: Who is J.D. Wright? 1 5 A: Jim Wright. I think he was in our 1 6 marketing department, and I cannot recall 1 7 his specific responsibility. 1 8 Q : What is MPE ? 1 9 A: I do not know. 2 0 Q: Does this document refresh your 2 1 recollection at about the time that NCR 2 2 adopted MIPB as their replacement product? 2 3 A: Well, once again, I see the date 2 4 here and I see what the document says, but 2 5 I cannot, with my own memory, corroborate Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003944 67 1 that. 2 Q: That specific date. But can you 3 -- you did testify earlier that the whole 4 project took about a year, so - 5 A: Give or take a year. So, the 6 problem is, I just don't have specific 7 memory of what that date was. 8 Q: But the date sometime in 1970 9 would be in accord with your memory in 1 0 terms of adoption of the replacement 1 1 product by NCR? 1 2 MR. PREUSS: When you say 1 3 adoption, are you talking about where they 1 4 actually started to produce a product such 1 5 as that as a component? 1 6 MS. WELCH: Yes. When they 1 7 stopped using the PCB-containing material 1 8 and they started using MIPB. 1 9 A: I cannot corroborate that with my 2 0 own memory. I would only add that the 2 1 rationale presented here would say that, 2 2 okay, we're essentially at the final stages 2 3 of developing a replacement product for 2 4 NCR . . 2 5 Q: When NCR started using that Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003945 i ___________________________________________________________________________________ 6_8 1 replacement product, did you work on the 2 NCR issue any more or did you turn to other 3 issues? 4 A: I have to tell you about a change 5 in responsibility that occurred shortly 6 after MIPB was adopted by NCR. The 7 carbonless carbon paper business -- the 8 solvent for the carbonless carbon paper 9 business was assigned to a different unit 1 0 o f Mon santo . 1 1 Q: What unit was that? 1 2 A: I can't remember with absolute 1 3 certainty, but I think it was the 1 4 functional fluids -- or maybe it was the 1 5 paper chemicals business. I think it was 1 6 probably paper chemicals business. 1 7 Q: And what area of responsibility 1 8 did you assume after that point, in other 1 9 words, after MIPB was adopted? 2 0 MR. PREUSS: You mean in general 2 1 what his responsibilities were? 2 2 MS . WELCH : Yes. 2 3 A: Well, it continued essentially 2 4 with everything, except that I no longer 2 5 was involved in NCR work, any follow-up Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003946 i 69 1 work that would be needed for successor 2 products and things of that nature. I 3 continued my position in plasticizers and 4 resin materials. 5 Q: And as of this time, in other 6 words, whenever MIPB was adopted, did any 1 of the other plasticizers still contain 8 P CB s ? 9 A: I cannot remember specifically. 1 0 This issue and the Aroclor 5 4 6 0 was sort of 1 1 overwhelming in the priority within the 1 2 plasticizer division. 1 3 Q: What do you mean, that it was 1 4 overwhelming? 1 5 A: The two principal problem s' that we 1 6 must solve. The NCR problem was solved 1 7 with a replacement product, the Aroclor 1 8 5460 problem was solved by discontinuing 1 9 the manufacture. And, frankly, we walked 2 0 away from that business, because we had no 2 1 alternate products. 2 2 Q: What was 5 4 6 0 used in? 2 3 A: As a tackifier in hot melt 2 4 adhesives. . 2 5 Q: What was the problem with the Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 , (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003947 70 1 5460? 2 A: The same as the PCBs. 3 Q: That is, there was an issue or 4 concern about persistence in the 5 environment? 6 A : Yes. 7 Q: Do you know approximately when 8 Monsanto walked away from that business? 9 A: I cannot recall specifically when 1 0 that occurred. 1 1 Q: Do you know if there was any 1 2 biphenyl content in 5460? 1 3 A: Aroclor 5460, by chemical 1 4 designation, was a polychlorinated 1 5 terphenyl. 1 6 Q: Had polychlorinated terphenyls 1 7 been found in the environment? 1 8 A: I don't recall that they had. I 1 9 really can't remember. 2 0 Q: Do you know why the concern about 2 1 persistence of polychlorinated terphenyls 2 2 arose? 2 3 A: In our judgment, the same kinds of 2 4 problems associated with PCBs in the 2 5 environment applied to polychlorinated Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003948 i 71 1 terphenyls. 2 Q: Turning back to this Exhibit 6 8 4, 3 do you have any recollection of any 4 presentation at all by Dr. Kelly about the 5 toxicology or the information regarding 6 biodegradabi1ity on any of these 7 substances? 8 A : No . 9 Q : Do you know who Dr. Kelly is? 1 0 A : Yes. 1 1 Q : Who is he ? 1 2 A : He was a former head of the 1 3 medical department of Monsanto. And I 1 4 guess that was, indeed, his position at 1 5 this time. 1 6 Q Did you have any contact with him? 1 7 A From time to time, yes. 1 8 Q With respect to what, in 1 9 particular? 2 0 A: Principally, applications for FDA 2 1 regulation of plasticizer products, 2 2 primarily phthalate esters. 2 3 Q: What was his ro.le in those 2 4 applications? 2 5 A: He was the head of the medical Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003949 I ___________________________________________________________________________________ 7_2 1 department who had the principal 2 responsibility for developing the 3 toxicology information on those products 4 and assisting in the preparation of the 5 proposed regulation by FDA. 6 Q: You testified even though you 7 couldn't remember specific meetings with 8 NCR, that you had meetings with NCR during 9 this time period? 1 0 A: Yes. I cannot remember specific 1 1 dates of those meetings or exactly what 1 2 subjects were discussed at thosemeetings. 1 3 I can, indeed, remember that there were a 1 4 number of meetings that were held that I 1 5 attended. 1 6 Q: Do you recall if there were any 1 7 other customers who bought PCBs from 1 8 Monsanto with whom you met? 1 9 A : No . 2 0 Q: Does that mean you don't recall or 2 1 there were no others? 2 2 A: There were no others, to the best 2 3 of my knowledge. 2 4 Q: That you met' with? 2 5 A: That I met with, yes. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003950 73 1 Q: How about any of the customers of 2 5460? 3 A: Really, I had no contact with 4 customers on that issue. The character of 5 the product to meet the requirements of a 6 tackif ier for the hot melt industry were of 7 such a nature that we recognized that with 8 the discontinuance of production of Aroclor 9 5460 we had no further candidates that 1 0 would be successful. 1 1 Q: So, you withdrew from that market 1 2 entirely? 1 3 A : Yes. 1 4 Q: Didn't attempt to find 1 5 replacements ? 1 6 A: We did not have any concerted .1 7 effort to find replacements. We 1 8 searched our files, of course, to see, 1 9 knowing the general kinds of requirements 2 0 of a product for that market, and concluded 2 1 that we just didn't have it. 2 2 MS. WELCH: Would you like to take 2 3 a break? 2 4 (Recess). 2 5 MS. WELCH: Introducing Exhibit Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003951 i 74 1 6 8 5. 2 (Deposition Exhibit Number 3 6 8 5 mark'd for identification) . 4 MS. WELCH: Exhibit 685 purports 5 to be a three page document. It appears to 6 be a Monsanto memorandum from Cumming 7 Paton, "Subject, DDT on trial," to Dr. 8 Richard, with a number of cc's, including 9 Dr. Farrar. And it is Bates stamped Tran 1 0 086293 to Tran 086295. And, Dr. Farrar, 1 1 I'd just like you to take a look at the 1 2 first page of this exhibit. Does this 1 3 refresh your recollection of whether you 1 4 ever heard about Dr. Risebrough? 1 5 A: No. Notreally. ' 1 6 Q: Did you ever hear during this time 1 7 period about the DDT hearings in Wisconsin? 1 8 A: Not specifically in Wisconsin, no. 1 9 Q: Did you hear generally about DDT 2.0 hearings? 2 1 A: I was aware generally that DDT was 2 2 withdrawn from the market because of its 2 3 persistence. DDT is an insecticide. 2 4 Q: Do you know if the withdrawal of 2 5 DDT had any affect on Monsanto's plans with Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003952 I _____________________________________________________________________ __________7_5 1 respect to PCBs? 2 A: I do not know whether it did or 3 did not. 4 Q: Do you know of any particular 5 affect that it had on Monsanto? 6 A: No. Monsanto did manufacture DDT 7 earlier, but discontinued for business 8 reasons many years earlier than this. 9 Q: Please mark this as Exhibit 6 8 6. 1 0 (Deposition Exhibit Number 1 1 6 8 6 mark'd for identification) . 1 2 MS. WELCH: Exhibit 686 purports 1 3 to be a memorandum from W.R. Richard to 1 4 file with a number of recipients, including 1 5 Dr. Farrar. It's dated April 1 4, 1 9 6 9. 1 6 The identifying stamp is Tran 005472 to 1 7 Tran 005475. Please take a few minutes to 1 8 review this document. Earlier you 1 9 testified that Dr. Richard was your 2 0 counterpart for functional fluids, is that 2 1 correct? 2 2 A : Yes. 2 3 Q: So, he was technical manager for 2 4 functional fluids during this time period? 2 5 A: Research manager for functional Gore Repotting Co., Inc. St. Louis,, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003953 i ___________________________________________________________________________________ 7_6 1 fluids, yes. 2 Q: And did you share common research 3 space or an office or laboratory with him? 4 As We were in the same building and 5 his office was close to mine. And the 6 laboratories for functional fluids and 7 plasticizers, although originally in the 8 same building, somewhere that group, 9 including Dr. Richard himself, was 1 0 relocated from the South Second Street 1 1 location of Monsanto to the corporate 1 2 research center at Lindbergh and Olive. I 1 3 can't remember exactly when that took place 1 4 for the functional fluids group. 1 5 Qs During 1 9 6 9 did you and Dr. 1 6 Richard participate in meetings concerning 1 7 what's referred to here as an Aroclor 1 8 program? 1 9 A: I don't recall participating in 2 0 meetings with Dr. Richard on this subject. 2 1 The functional fluids problems and 2 2 commercial applications were so vastly 2.3 different than the plasticizer problems and 2 4 commercial applications, although many of 2 5 the same products were involved, where it Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003954 I ___________________________________________________________________________________ 7J7 1 went from there was so different there was 2 very little corroborative work that was 3 going on between Dr. Richard's department 4 and mine. 5 Q: Do you remember hearing about an 6 Aroclor program at this time, April 1969? 7 A: I don't fully understand. I guess 8 I'm not familiar with this term Aroclor 9 program. 1 0 Q: During this time period you were 1 1 involved in the development of 1 2 replacements, however, for NCR? 1 3 MR. PREUSS: Plasticizers. 1 4 MS. WELCH: In the plasticizers, 1 5 yes. 1 6 A: I cannot remember specifically 1 7 that this is, indeed, the time frame for 1 8 that. 1 9 Q: Turning to page 4, what's marked 2 0 as page 4 of the document, there is a 2 1 reference to, I think it's the last page of 2 2 the document, "In plasticizers- M. Farrar. 2 3 In NCR paper- M. Farrar and H. Touchette. 2 4 Looking at alternate compounds" -- and it 2 5 describes what the compounds might be. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003955 ___________________________________________________________________________________ 7_8 1 Does this refresh your recollection about 2 whether you were looking for alternate 3 compounds at this point? 4 A: At some point in time we clearly 5 were looking for alternate compounds. I 6 can't corroborate with my own memory that 7 it was during this particular time. 8 Q: Turning to page 3 of the document, 9 the second to last paragraph states, 1 0 "Concern over pollution, persistence of 1 1 chlorinated hydrocarbons, ability to detect 1 2 in the ppb range, the Risebrough storm 1 3 about PCBs in nature all conspire to force 1 4 the synthesis of Aroclor substitutes in 1 5 those applications which can reach the 1 6 environment." Do you know what it means 1 7 when it refers to ability to detect -- not 1 8 what this document means, but had you ever 1 9 heard that there was an ability to detect 2 0 PCBs in the ppb range? 2 1 A: Yes. I became aware at some point 2 2 in time that the skill of the analytical 2 3 chemists, particularly with gas 2 4 chromatography and flame ionization, was 2 5 sufficient to permit detection of these Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 . (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003956 ________________________________________________________________ 79 1 materials in the parts per billion range. 2 Q: Excuse me, I didn't hear you, the 3 word that you used after gas 4 chromatography. 5 A: Flame ionization detector. 6 Q: What was that? 7 A: It's a specific part of the gas 8 chromagraphic apparatus that provides a 9 sensitivity to the level of the component 1 0 you're detecting. 1 1 Q: Did you find out about the use of 1 2 gas chromatography from any particular 1 3 individual? .14 A: Gas chromatography has been around 1 5 for a long, long time, and my department 1 6 used gas chromatography directly, and also 1 7 through the services of Dr. Keller's group. 1 8 Q: What did you use gas 1 9 chromatography for? 2 0 A: For analytical purposes. 2 1 Q: Can you give me an example of how 2 2 you would use gas chromatography during 2 3 this time period? 2 4 A: Yes. For analysis of phthalate 2 5 ester plasticizers. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003957 _______________________________________________________________________________ 8_0 1 Q: Did you ever use it for analysis 2 of PCB-containing materials? 3 A: I do not recall that we did, no. 4 Q: How did you become aware that - 5 or from whom did you become aware that gas 6 chromatography could be used to detect PCBs 7 in its parts per billion range? 8 A: Through reports from Dr. Keller's 9 department . 1 0 Q: Turning to page 4. There is a 1 1 reference to "In hydraulic fluids-not 1 2 organized-need help." Do you have any 1 3 knowledge about the development of the 1 4 replacement program for hydraulic fluids at 1 5 this time in 1969? 1 6 A : No . 1 7 Q: Do you know who would know? 1 8 A: That area of responsibility was 1 9 Dr. Richard's. 2 0 Q: Anyone else besides Dr. Richard 2 1 who might have knowledge of this? 2 2 A: I don't remember, you know, who 2 3 the key members of his department were. 2 4 Q: Do you know what happened subsequent to 1969 with respect to the Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003958 I ___________________________________________________________________________________ 8JL 1 development of replacement products in 2 hydraulic fluids? 3 A : No . 4 Q: Exhibit 687. 5 (Deposition Exhibit Number 6 687 mark'd for identification) . 7 MS. WELCH: Exhibit 687 purports 8 to be a three page document dated May 13, 9 1969 from W.R. Richard to file with 1 0 recipients including Dr. Farrar. Its date 1 1 stamped Tran 009835 to Tran 009837. Please 1 2 take a few minutes to review this 1 3 document. Do you recall seeing this 1 4 document before? 1 5 A : No . 1 6 Q: Is this your handwriting here JKD, 1 7 JKS , MWF ? 1 8 A: Yes, I think that's my 1 9 handwriting. That's JRD, JKS, JT, MWF. 2 0 Q: What does JRD stand for? 2 1 A: J.R. Darby. 2 2 Q : And JKS ? 2 3 A: J.K. Sears. 24 Q: And JT is Mr. Touchette? 2 5 A : Yes. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 . WATER PCB-SD0000003959 ___________________________________________________________________________________ 8_2 1 Qs And you're MWF? 2 A: Monday, Wednesday, Friday. 3 Q: Easy way to remember it. Did your 4 parents think of that? 5 As I don't know. 6 Qs Were you aware of the trip that 7 was made by various Monsanto personnel to 8 Sweden in 1969? 9 As No . 1 0 Qs But you were aware of the work of 1 1 Doctors Widmark and Jensen? 1 2 As I had heard of their publications, 1 3 yes. 1 4 Qs Do you remember where you heard of 1 5 the publications? ' 1 6 As Probably from Dr. Richard. 1 7 Qs Did you ever hear of any dispute 1 8 or disagreement within Monsanto about the 1 9 validity of Dr. Jensen and Widmark's 2 0 identification of PCBs in the environment? 2 1 As No . 2 2 Qs Do you recall attending any 2 3 meetings which discussed the findings on 2 4 thetrip? . 2 5 As No . Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 . (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003960 I ___________ ___________________________________________________________________ Li 1 Q: Turning to page 2, about the 2 middle of the page there is a statement, 3 "Based on these remarks of Widmark we might 4 consider alternate products and actions, " 5 and then there is a question, "What is the 6 Cl 5 and Cl 6 content of Aroclor 1242?" 7 Did you know what the Cl 5 and Cl 6 content 8 of Aroclor 1 2 4 2 was at the time? 9 A: No. I only know the designation 1 0 Aroclor 1242 means 42 percent chlorine in 1 1 the biphenyl molecule. 1 2 Q: Do you know that that means that 1 3 that's the average chlorine? 1 4 A: Average chlorine content. 1 5 Q: Were you aware that the Cl 5 and 1 6 Cl 6 content of Aroclor 1242 was of 1 7 particular concern at the time? 18 A : No . . 1 9 Q: Turning to the last page, the last 2 0 sentence says, "We would like some 2 1 indication of biodegradabi1ity , especially 2 2 on Aroclorst 1242." Do you know why the 2 3 b i odegradabi1ity of 12 42 was of particular 2 4 concern? 2 5 MR. PREUSS: I'll object, assuming Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003961 I _____________________________ _______________________________________________________8_4 1 facts not in evidence, that it's a 2 particular concern. 3 MS. WELCH: You can go ahead and 4 answer. 5 A: Could you rephrase the question? 6 Repeat the question. 7 (The requested portion of the 8 record read by the reporter) . 9 MR. PREUSS: Same objection. In 1 0 addition, it's argumentative. 1 1 A: What do Ido? 1 2 MR. PREUSS: You can answer. 1 3 MS. WELCH: He's just putting his 1 4 objections on the record. 1 5 A: Okay. I think, overall, it 1 6 relates to the problem that we had 1 7 recognized of persistence in the 1 8 environment . 1 9 Q: Introducing Exhibit 688. 2 0 (Deposition Exhibit Number 2 1 6 8 8 mark'd for identification) . 2 2 MS. WELCH: Exhibit 688 purports 2 3 to be a memo from J.E..Springgate to Mr. 2 4 W.E. Schalk, with a cc to Dr. Farrar, dated 2 5 June 10, 1969 with the identifying stamp Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003962 i ___________________________________________________________________________________ 8_5 1 Tran 0 2 5 2 3 3. Have you ever seen this 2 document before? 3 A: I can't recall seeing this 4 specifically before, no. 5 Q: Can you recall this request from 6 Mr. Springgate, "Would you please have 7 someone calculate the probable level of PCB 8 in water from a water tower painted with 9 Aroclor paint?" 1 0 A: I see it written here, but I guess 1 1 I have to tell you I cannot recall 1 2 specifically this particular incident. 1 3 Q: Does your handwriting appear 1 4 anywhere on this document? 1 5 A: Yes. There in the margin on the 1 6 left, toward the bottom. 1 7 Q: Which states "NWT will provide 1 8 panels " ? 1 9 A: "REK will run extraction on one to 2 0 two panels". 2 1 Q: What are you referring to by 2 2 panels? 2 3 A: Test panels painted with paint 2 4 containing Aroclor.. 2 5 Q: Were you aware of any customers Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003963 86 1 that used PCB-containing paint specifically 2 for water towers? 3 A: No. Seeing this in print today 4 surprises me a little bit. 5 Q: Why does it surprise you? 6 A: Because, in general, my 7 recollection of Monsanto policy is that we 8 would not recommend PCB-containing 9 materials to be in contact with materials 1 0 for human consumption. 1 1 Q: Did you ever hear that 1 2 PCB - containing materials were used for 1 3 paint inside silos? 1 4 A : Yes. 1 5 Q: And what was in those silos, do 1 6 you know? 1 7 A: You mean the product stored in the 1 8 silos? 1 9 Q : Yes. 2 0 A: Silage. 2 1 Q: And what was the silageused for? 2 2 A: For feeding cattle. 2 3 Q: And, to your knowledge,did that 2 4 cattle eventually end up as food for human 2 5 consumption? Only if you know. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 . WATER PCB-SD0000003964 87 1 A : I do not know. 2 Qs If you could help me interpret the 3 findings on the bottom. What does it mean 4 that solubility of Aroclor in tap water is, 5 Aroclor 1 2 4 2, 2 0 0 parts per billion, and so 6 on, Aroclor 1248, 100 parts per billion and 7 Aroclor 1254 - 8 A: If you make a saturated solution 9 of these different Aroclors in water, then 1 0 analyze the water for the contained 1 1 Aroclor, that's the level that was found. 1 2 Q: So, does that mean that there is 1 3 more presence of Aroclor 1 2 4 2 in water in 1 4 this particular experiment than 1254? 1 5 A: Yes. 200 parts per b i 1 1 i o'n is 1 6 four times greater than 50 parts per 1 7 billion. 1 8 Q: Does that mean that it's -- you 1 9 can conclude, according to this experiment, 2 0 that Aroclor 12 4 2 is less soluble in water 2 1 than Aroclor 1254? 2 2 A: No, it's more soluble in water. 2 3 Q: It's more soluble? 2 4 A : Yes . '. 2 5 Q: So, in other words, as the Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750. (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003965 ____________________________________________________________________________________ 8_8 1 chlorination increases, it becomes less 2 soluble? 3 A: You would conclude that from these 4 data, yes. 5 Qs Introducing as Exhibit 689 the 6 following document. 7 (Deposition Exhibit Number 8 689 mark'd for identification). 9 MS. WELCH: Exhibit 689 purports 1 0 to be a memorandum from E.V. John to a 1 1 number of persons, including Dr. Farrar, 1 2 dated August 25, 1969, and with the 1 3 identifying stamp of Tran 058985. Okay. 1 4 Have you ever seen this document before? 1 5 A: I do not recall this specific 1 6 document, no. 1 7 Q: Do you recall knowing around 1 8 August 1969 that there was a committee that 1 9 was studying polychlorinated biphenyls in 2 0 the environment? 2 1 A: I don't have that specific 2 2 recollection, no. 2 3 Q: Do you have a general 2 4 recollection? 2 5 A : No . Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003966 ___________________________________________________________________________________ 8_9 1 Qs Do you recall being part of a task 2 force on PCBs at about this time? 3 As I can recall a good number of 4 meetings. The specific existence of this 5 task force, I really don't remember. 6 Q: What were the purpose of the 7 meetings, as far as you can recall? 8 A: Concern over the Aroclor issue. 9 Q: Do you recall the gentlemen who 1 0 are listed, yourself, Mr. Hodges, Dr. 1 1 Richard and Mr. Wheeler as being present at 1 2 those meetings as well as Mr. John? 1 3 A: I don't have specific recollection 1 4 of the attendees at such meetings, and I 1 5 would say they probably varied from time to 1 6 time. 1 7 Q: How often did whatever group this 1 8 constituted meet, as far as you can recall? 1 9 A: I do not recall. 2 0 Q: Do you know what percentage of 2 1 your work time was taken up with these 2 2 meetings or work on this committee? 2 3 A: I would say meetings specifically 2 4 took a fairly small amount of my time. 2 5 Meetings on this subject. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003967 90 1 Q: How about work that emanated from 2 these meetings? 3 A; I think I indicated earlier as we 4 began to get in high gear, particularly 5 searching for an alternate product in the 6 carbonless carbon paper application, for a 7 period of time it took about 25 percent of 8 my time. 9 Q: Did anyone ever tell you why you 1 0 were chosen for a task force.on PCBs? 1 1 A: I can't remember the designation 1 2 of a task force. But Mr. Springgate told 1 3 me very clearly we need to find a 1 4 replacement for Aroclor 1 2 4 2 in the NCR 1 5 application. 1 6 Q: Do you recall ever making a 1 7 recommendation, you and others, or a part 1 8 of a committee or meetings to a full PCB 1 9 committee on September 15, 1969? 2 0 A : I do not. 2 1 Q: Do you know what Paul Hodges' job 2 2 in 19 69 ? 2 3 A : No . 2 4 Q : Do you know Paul Hodges? 2 5 A : I've heard the name, and I Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003968 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 .17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ___________________________________________________________________________________ 9 1 probably have met Paul Hodges. I do not know what his job was at that time. Q: Do you recall how many meetings you had about this time on these issues? A : No . Q: Introducing Exhibit 690. (Deposition Exhibit Number 690 mark'd for identification). MS. WELCH: Exhibit 690 is a multi-page document which purports to be minutes of the Aroclor ad hoc committee, dated September 5, 1969, and indicated as present, among others, is Dr. Farrar. Bates stamp Tran 024263 to Tran 024266. Please take a few minutes to review this document. Does this help refresh your recollection about the Aroclor ad hoc c ommi11 e e ? A: I don't recall such an ad hoc committee specifically from my own direct memory, no. Q: Do you have any doubt that you attended such an Aroclor ad hoc committee meeting based on this document? A: I'd say this document provides Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003969 I ___________________________________________________________________________________ 9 2 1 reasonably good evidence that I was 2 probably present at a meeting. 3 Qs Did you generally take notes at 4 meetings which you attended during this 5 time period? 6 A: My note-taking would consist 7 principally of actions required of me 8 and/or my department. 9 Q: Do you preserve your notes? 1 0 A: No. You put that question in the 1 1 present tense. 1 2 Q: Did you preserve your notes at 1 3 that time? 1 4 A: For a limited period of time. 1 5 Q: How long did you preserve it? 1 6 A: Until the action items that were 1 7 required of me and/or my department were 1 8 completed, and probably for a short period 1 9 of a few months beyond that. I had a 2 0 policy of trying to keep my files moving. 2 1 (Discussion off the record). 2 2 MS. WELCH: Okay. Looking under 2 3 the stated objectives, there are three 2 4 objectives that are stated, and please read 2 5 those to yourself. Do you agree that those Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 . (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003970 ___________________________________________________________________________________ 9 3 1 were the objectives of whatever committee 2 you were part of at the time? 3 A: I really don't recall this 4 document specifically and, therefore, I 5 really have no opinion on what this 6 document says in that regard. 7 Q: Do you recall hearing that it was 8 an objective of Monsanto to permit 9 continued sales and profits of Aroclors and 1 0 t e rphe ny1s ? 1 1 A: As a matter of fact, the 1 2 instruction given to me was quite the 1 3 opposite of that. 1 4 Q: With respect to NCR carbonless 1 5 paper, is that correct? 1 6 A: Yes. And the hot melt adhesives. 1 7 Q: But you don't have knowledge about 1 8 sales or profits of Aroclors or other 1 9 terphenyls in other applications? 2 0 A : No . 2 1 Q: How about the second objective of 2 2 permitting continued development of uses 2 3 and sales? 2 4 A: I don't remember that one, either. 2 5 Q: Do you remember as far as NCR Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003971 i 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I ___________________________________________________________________________________ 94 carbonless paper and the -- what is it, the hot melted - A: Aroclor 5460 in hot melts. Q: That those were to be terminated? A : Yes. Q: You have no knowledge of whether other uses or sales were to be terminated or continued? MR. PREUSS: You meanin general or within the plasticizer responsibility? MS. WELCH: In general. A: In general, no. I would say in plasticizers, yes. There was a policy decision made that those products would be withdrawn from the marketplace. Q: In plasticizers? A: In plasticizers. Q: Okay. How about the goal of protecting the image of the organic division and of the corporation, do you recall that being a goal? A: Well, I think that fits in to a philosophy that I had indicated earlier, the strong emphasis on being a good corporate citizen by Monsanto Company. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003972 I 1 Q : How was that to be accomplished? 2 A: Through a position of not 3 knowingly to manufacture and sell products 4 that would be harmful to the environment, 5 to humans or to anything else. 6 Q: Turning to the "Background 7 discussion of the problem," there is a 8 statement that "Aroclor 1242 has not yet 9 been incriminated for" -- back up. 1 0 "Agreed that w e should concentrate on 1 1 Aroclor 12 5 4 and 1 2 6 0. " Do you recall 1 2 knowing that there was a concentration 1 3 Aroclor 12 5 4 and 1 2 6 0 ? 1 4 A: No. Notspecifically that. 1 5 Q: In fact, yourspecific area of 1 6 responsibility was to find a replacement 1 7 for Aroclor 1242 in the carbonless carbon i 8 paper? 1 9 A: That's right. 2 0 Q: Turning to number 2, "PCB has been 2 1 found in fish, oysters, shrimp and birds," 2 2 and, "Along the coastlines of 2 3 industrialized areas," et cetera. Do you 2 4 recall knowing that, at the time? 2 5 A : No . Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003973 ___________________________________________________________________________________ 9_6 1 Q: Do you recall knowing that PCB had 2 been found in fish, oysters, shrimp and 3 birds? 4 A : No . 5 Q: Turning to point 4, please read 6 that to yourself. Do you recall a 7 discussion about sample acceptance from 8 various researchers? 9 A : No . 1 0 Q: Do you know what Monsanto's 1 1 concerns were with respect to sample 1 2 acceptance from researchers? 1 3 MR. PREUSS: I'm going to object 1 4 to the form of the question as 1 5 argumentative. The sentence says what it 1 6 says. 1 7 MS. WELCH: I'm asking for your 1 8 independent recollection, if any. 1 9 A: I do not have any independent 2 0 recollection of that. 2 1 Q: Do you recall any discussion about 2 2 concern that acceptance of samples from 2 3 researchers might tighten any possible 2-4 legal cases against Monsanto? 2 5 A : No . Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 . WATER PCB-SD0000003974 ___________________________________________________________________________________ 9_7 1 Q : Or any concern that it would rule 2 out the possibility that Aroclors are not 3 involved? 4 As No . 5 Q: Number 5, on page 2, states that 6 "Allowable levels are probably lower than 7 DDT." Do you recall knowing that the 8 allowable levels of PCBs were probably 9 lower than DDT? 1 0 A : No . 1 1 Q: Number 6 talks about the Escambia 1 2 River problem. Do you recall knowing about 1 3 the Escambia River problem? 1 4 A : No . 1 5 Q: Do you recall knowing about the 1 6 problem at the plant in Pensacola? 1 7 A : No . 1 8 Q: Do you recall a shrimp kill in 1 9 Florida that Monsanto was investigating? 2 0 A: I do not specifically recall that. 2 1 Q: On page 4, under "Action planned," 2 2 it's stated "Each member of the group will 2 3 submit to the other members for 2 4 consideration possible ideas and programs 2 5 to help accomplish the overall objectives Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003975 ___________________________________________________________________________________ 9_8 1 set by the committee." Did you ever submit 2 ideas and programs to help accomplish the 3 overall objectives set by the committee? 4 A: I really don't recall if I did or 5 not. 6 Q: Do you recall when the committee 7 met again after this date? 8 A j No . 9 Q: Please introduce as Exhibit 691 1 0 the following document. 1 1 (Deposition Exhibit Number 1 2 691 mark'd for identification). 1 3 MS. WELCH: Exhibit 691 is a 1 4 multi-page document dated October 2, 1969, 1 5 "Subject: Report of Aroclor ad hoc 1 6 committee," to Howard Bergen and James 1 7 Springgate from a number of people, 1 8 including Dr. Farrar, with the identifying 1 9 stamp Tran 0 2 4 2 5 0 to Tran 0 2 4 2 6 2. Please 2 0 take a few minutes to review this. Okay. 2 1 Do you recognize the handwriting in here, 2 2 on page 2? 2 3 A : I do not. 2 4 Q: That's not your handwriting? 2 5 A : No . Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003976 i ___________________________________________________________________________________ 9_9 1 Q: On the first page, under the 2 statement of objectives there is a 3 statement, "At a meeting of business group 4 directors of functional fluids and 5 plasticizers with organic division and 6 corporate staff members on August 25, an ad 7 hoc committee was appointed." Does that 8 refresh your recollection about the 9 appointment of an ad hoc committee? 1 0 A: It does not refreshmy specific 1 1 recollection. I'm aware that this document 1 2 says that's what was done. I do not 1 3 specifically remember that. 1 4 Q: Was Mr. Springgate the business 1 5 group director of plasticizers? 1 6 A : Yes . 1 7 Q: Turning to the second page, under 1 8 "Probability of success." Did you agree in 1 9 1969 with the statement that was made here, 2 0 that there was little probability that any 2 1 action that could be taken will prevent the 2 2 growing incrimination of specific 2 3 polychlorinated biphenyls? 2 4 A: I do not recall thatconclusion 2 5 and, hence, I do not recall my agreement or Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003977 i ___________________________________________________________________________________ 10 0 1 disagreement with it. 2 Q: Do you recall generally thinking 3 that the various Aroclor products would 4 have to be withdrawn because of the growing 5 evidence of persistence in the environment 6 at this time, 1969? 7 MR. PREUSS: Let me object. The 8 previous question and inference from the 9 next one is you're talking about higher 1 0 chlorinated, particularly 1254 and 1260, 1 1 which was omitted from your earlier 1 2 question. 1 3 MS. WELCH: Let's talk 1 4 specifically about the higher chlorinated. 1 5 Do you recall knowing at the time or 1 6 thinking at the time that the higher 1 7 chlorinated Aroclors would have to be 1 8 withdrawn from the market because of 1 9 concerns about persistence in the 2 0 e nvir o nme n t ? 2 1 A: Could you define for me what you 2 2 mean by higher chlorinated Aroclors? 23 Q: Well, let's start with the 2 4 definition of this document, which is 1254 2 5 and higher. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003978 I ___________________________________________________________________________________ 10 1 1 As I don't recall specifically 2 anything concerning Aroclor 1254 or 1260. 3 Q: Your work was primarily concerned 4 with 1 2 4 2 and the phasing out of 1 2 4 2 ? 5 As In our problem, yes. 6 Qs How about the second statement, do 7 you recall any knowledge that there was no 8 practical course of action that can so 9 effectively police the uses of these 1 0 products so as to prevent environmental 1 1 contamination? 1 2 As I don't recall that assessment. 1 3 Qs Excuse me? 1 4 As I don't recall that assessment. 1 5 Qs Do you recall an assessment that 1 6 there were a number of actions which might 1 7 be undertaken to prolong the manufacture, 1 8 sale and use of these particular Aroclors, 1 9 as well as to protect the continued use of 2 0 other members of the Aroclor series? 2 1 As I do not recall that train of 2 2 thought of my own specific memory. 2 3 Qs Do you recall knowing, as is 2 4 indicated in the marginalia here, that the 2 5 identification of PCBs in the environment Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003979 10 2 1 was positive? 2 A: I'm sorry, which page are you on? 3 Q : Number 2. I'm looking- at the 4 handwriting at the bottom. 5 A: Okay. No, I don't recall that. 6 Q: Do you recall - 7 A: I'm not sure I can read that even 8 now. 9 Q: Do you recall knowing or thinking 1 0 that the toxicity towards certain species 1 1 was high? 1 2 A : No . 1 3 Q: Do you recall knowing or thinking 1 4 that persistence of PCBs was high? 15 A : Yes . ' 1 6 Q: How about recalling, thinking or 1 7 knowing that the likelihood of natural 1 8 origin or degradation is remote? 1 9 A: I don't recall that conclusion 2 0 having been stated at this particular time. 2 1 Q : How about later? 2 2 A : I don't recall . 2 3 Q : Page 3, there is 2 4 recommendations. Do you recall the 2 5 notification of all Aroclor 12 5 4 and 1260 Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 . (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003980 10 3 1 customers of environmental contamination 2 problems? 3 As No . 4 Q: Did you have any customers for 5 Aroclor 1254 and 1260? 6 As I was never in contact with any 7 customers for Aroclor 1254 and 1260. There 8 may have been some plasticizer products - 9 some plasticizer customers purchasing 1 0 Aroclor 1254 and 1260. 1 1 Qs But you were not in contact with 1 2 any ? 1 3 As No . 1 4 Qs Reviewing the rest of the 1 5 recommendations, do you recall any of these 1 6 recommendations being made? 1 7 As I have no specific recollection of 1 8 this report of my own memory. And, 1 9 therefore, I do not specifically recall 2 0 anything contained in this document. 2 1 Qs Was Howard Bergen the head of the 2 2 business group for functional fluids? 2 3 As At that time, yes, I think that's 2 4 correct. 2 5 Qs Recommendation number 8 states Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003981 10 4 1 that one individual from the division 2 should be assigned full-time for three to 3 six months to coordinate division and 4 corporate staff department efforts. Do you 5 know if this was done? 6 A: I do know that there was an 7 individual assigned for that purpose, and I 8 presume it was as a result of this 9 recommendation. 1 0 Q: Who was that individual? 1 1 A: Mr. Papageorge . 1 2 Q: Number 5, page number 5, do you 1 3 recall hearing about a September or 1 4 February 24, 1969 San Francisco Chronicle 1 5 article about Dr. Robert Risebrough? 1 6 A : No . 1 7 Q: How about did you ever see the 1 8 March 3, 1 9 6 9 letter sent out by the 1 9 functional fluids group to customers? 2 0 A: I did not. 2 1 Q: Ever hear about thatletter? 2 2 A : No . 2 3 Q: Were you aware.of your own 2 4 personal knowledge that other functional 2 5 fluid uses could lead to losses of Aroclors Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003982 ___________________________________________________________________________________ 10 5 1 to liquid waste streams from the customer's 2 plants? 3 A : No . 4 Q : You had no knowledge of functional 5 fluids? 6 A : No . 7 Q: How about, did you have any 8 knowledge of vapor losses from functional 9 fluids ? 1 0 A : No . 1 1 Q: How about vapor losses from 1 2 plasticizer applications? 1 3 A: I had no specific knowledge of 1 4 vapor losses. In general, our viewpoint 1 5 was Aroclors are low volatile products. 1 6 Q: What does that mean in terms of 1 7 vapor losses? 1 8 A: Low vapor loss. Low vapor 1 9 pressure, low vapor loss. 2 0 Q: Were you aware of the concern of a 2 1 possible source of air environmental 2 2 contamination from the eventual destruction 2 3 of materials having Aroclors in them? 2 4 A: What kinds o.f materials being 2 5 destroyed? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003983 10 6 1 Q: Any kind of materials with 2 Aroclors in them. 3 A: I don't recall that. That's a 4 very general, and very broad question. 5 Q ; I'm referring to a statement 6 that's actually in this document in the 7 last paragraph. 8 MR. PREUSS: There is no 9 question. 1 0 MS. WELCH: If your recollection 1 1 is refreshed by looking at that paragraph, 1 2 there is a question pending. 1 3 A : No . 1 4 Q: Page 6 refers to or states, "The 1 5 company could be considered derelict, 1 6 morally if not legally, if it fails to 1 7 notify all customers of the potential 1 8 implication." Do you have any knowledge of 1 9 anyother, besides NCR, information given 2 0 to customers about the issues concerning 2 1 PCB s ? 2 2 A: I have no other knowledge than 2 3 that. 2 4 Q: Turning to page 7, were you aware 2 5 of visits by Monsanto personnel to Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 . WATER PCB-SD0000003984 i ___________________________________________________________________________________ 10 7 1 personnel at Paturent, Maryland in August 2 of 19 68 ? 3 A : No , 4 Q: Were you aware of the positive 5 identification by scientists at Paturent of 6 PCBs in various dead eagles and marine 7 birds? 8 A: I don't recall that, no. 9 Q: Were you aware, as referred to in 1 0 paragraph 2, that the U.S Food and Drug 1 1 Administration in Washington had called Dr. 1 2 Kelly in June 1969 to report that the State 1 3 of Georgia had found PCBs in milk? 1 4 A: I do not remember that, no. 1 5 Q: Turning to the bottom paragraph, 1 6 there is a reference to the finding of PCBs 1 7 in the river below the Pensacola plant. 1 8 Please read that. And my question to you 1 9 is whether that refreshes your recollection 2 0 about the contamination of the river in 2 1 Pensacola? 2 2 MR. PREUSS: Let me just object to 2 3 the form of the question as argumentative. 2 4 The statement says "reported finding PCBs, " 2 5 your question was contamination. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 , (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003985 i _______________________________________________________ ____________________________ 10 8 1 MS . WELCH: You can answer the 2 question. 3 A: I do not recall that. 4 Q: Page 8, the last paragraph, I'd 5 like you to read that to yourself. Do you 6 recall concern about, quote, any losses, 7 end of quote, even losses as small as one 8 to three gallons per day at the Monsanto 9 plant because of the issue of the PCB 1 0 problem? 1 1 A: I have no recollection of that. 1 2 Q: Page 9 speaks of analytical 1 3 capabilities. Do you recall a suggestion 1 4 that there must be an acceptance of 1 5 governmental analytical results or running 1 6 duplicate analysis to confirm for 1 7 yourselves the validity of the reported 1 8 results? 1 9 A: I do not recall any of that. 2 0 Q: Looking at the last paragraph, 2 1 there is a reference to the finding in five 2 2 out of five commercially available electric 2 3 dishwashing compounds showing the presence 2 4 of PCBs, do you recall that? 2 5 A : No . Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003986 ___________________________________________________________________________________ 10 9 1 Q: Turning to the last page, under 2 "Budgetary considerations". Do you recall 3 knowing that PCB-containing products were a 4 profitable series of compounds to Monsanto? 5 A: Yes. I recall that PCBs had a 6 reasonably good profit margin in 7 plasticizer application. 8 Q: Do you have any knowledge of what 9 kind of budget was developed for whatever 1 0 recommendations came out of this ad hoc 1 1 c ommit t e e ? 1 2 A: No, I do not remember any specific 1 3 budget development or recommendation from 1 4 this. 1 5 Q: How about the budget for the 1 6 specific replacement product that you were 1 7 assigned to work on for NCR? 1 8 A: I do not recall the magnitude of 1 9 that. As a matter of fact, you know, there 2 0 comes a time when your boss says do this, 2 1 you do it, you don't give him an argument 2 2 by saying you don't have the budget to do 2 3 it with. 2 4 Q: And that was. the nature of the 2 5 assignment for the replacement? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003987 ___________________________________________________________________________________ 110 1 A; For the NCR replacement, yes. 2 Qj Do you know whether, after October 3 2, 1969 - - or do you recall ever meeting 4 with these gentlemen who are described 5 here, again? 6 A: I do not recall if this 7 represented the final meeting or if there 8 were any subsequent meetings. 9 Q: Do you know whether any other 1 0 committee was assigned to continue the work 1 1 of this committee after this point? 1 2 A: I don't remember. 1 3 (Discussion off the record) . 1 4 MS. WELCH: Introduce as Exhibit 1 5 692 the following document. 1 6 (Deposition Exhibit Number 1 7 692 mark'd for identification). 1 8 MS. WELCH: Exhibit 692 is a 1 9 multi-page document from W.R. Richard to E. 2 0 Wheeler, with a number of other recipients, 2 1 including Dr. Farrar, dated September 9, 2 2 1969, with the identifying stamp Tran 2 3 023807 to Tran 023814. Please take a few 2 4 minutes to review this. Have you ever seen 2 5 this document before? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003988 111 1 A; I don't recall this document 2 specifically, no. 3 Q : So you don't know if this is one 4 of the submissions that was called for by 5 an earlier document? 6 A: I do not, no. rj Q: Turning to the first statement 8 under "General policy," "Make the 9 government, states and universities prove 1 0 their case, but avoid as much confrontation 1 1 as possible." Do you recall any discussion 1 2 about that particular general policy? 1 3 A : No . 1 4 Q: Did you agree with that policy as 15 of 19 69 ? ` 1 6 MR. PREUSS: Well, I object to the 1 7 form of the question as calling for 1 8 speculation. He said he doesn't recall 1 9 such a discussion, how can he agree or 2 0 disagree with it? 2 1 MS. WELCH: Go ahead and answer. 2 2 A: My recollection is most vivid 2 3 concerning the decision that was made to 2 4 replace Aroclor 12 4 2 in the NCR paper. 2 5 There was no quibbling on that issue. The Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 . (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003989 i ___________________________________________________________________________________ 112 1 decision was made, we will do it. I do not 2 specifically remember the time frame of 3 that. 4 Q: That was your area of 5 responsibility, so you recall that the most 6 vividly? 7 A : Yes. 8 Q: Do you recall work at Industrial 9 Biotest? 1 0 A: I recall that Monsanto had a fair 1 1 amount of toxicology work done at 1 2 Industrial Biotest. 1 3 Q: Did you have any contact with 1 4 anybody at Industrial Biotest? 1 5 A: From time to time, yes. 1 6 Q: Who were those individuals, do you 1 7 recall? 1 8 A: I guess only one name comes to my 1 9 mind at this point, Dr. Paul Wright. 2 0 Q: Is he an employee of Monsanto or 2 1 Industrial Biotest? 2 2 A: Both, at different times. 2 3 Q: Why did you have contact with him 2 4 at Industrial Biotest? 2 5 A: I think I indicated earlier that Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003990 113 1 we in the plasticizer group were submitting 2 petitions to the Food and Drug 3 Administration for the regulation of 4 certain plasticizer products to be.used in 5 food contact applications. 6 Q: This is not PCB plasticizers? 7 As Non-PCB, Phthalate esters and - 8 principally. 9 Q: Did you have any contact with 1 0 Industrial Biotest regarding the PCB work? 1 1 A: I do not remember having any 1 2 contact with Industrial Biotest on that 13 subj ec t . 1 4 Q: Do you remember that one of the 1 5 goals of the work at Industrial Biotest was 1 6 to prove PCBs bioharmless? 1 7 A : No . 1 8 MR. PREUSS: Objection, no 1 9 foundation, assuming facts not in 2 0 evidence . 2 1 MS. WELCH: Turning to the 2 2 probable outcome, it says "We can't defend 2 3 versus everything. Some animals or fish or 2 4 inspects will be harmed. " 2 5 A: I'm sorry, what page? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003991 i ___________________________________________________________________________________ 114 1 Q: The first page, "Probable 2 outcome." The statement, "We can't defend 3 versus everything. Some animals or fish or 4 inspects will be harmed." Do you recall 5 agreeing with that assessment of Dr. 6 Richard? 7 A: I do not recall that particular 8 assessment, nor agree with it. 9 Q: What do you mean, you don't agree 1 0 with it? 1 1 A : I say - 1 2 MR. PREUSS: He doesn't recall 1 3 agreeing with it. 1 4 A: I don't recall seeing this 1 5 assessment, nor agreeing with it. 1 6 MS. WELCH: Do you recall agreeing 1 7 with the assessment that the Aroclor of 1 8 degradation rate will be slow and it was 1 9 tough to defend against? 2 0 A: I don't recall that. I would only 2 1 add that I think you would need to define 2 2 which Aroclor you're speaking of. 2 3 Q: Why do you say that? 2 4 A: I think it'sknown that lower 2 5 chlorinated versions of Aroclor were, Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003992 115 1 indeed, biodegradable. 2 Q: Do you remember which versions 3 you're speaking of specifically? 4 A: I don't remember any product 5 names, no. But I'd say monochloro and 6 certain dichloro isomers. 7 Q: So, it's actually the isomers that 8 you're referring to rather than the 9 specific compounds? 1 0 A: Oh, I think it's the chlorine 1 1 content, principally. 1 2 Q: So, if an Aroclor contained mostly 1 3 monos or dis, you would consider that more 1 4 biodegradable? 1 5 A: Than the higher homologues, yes. 1 6 Q: Did you agree with Dr. Richard's .1 7 assessment that Monsanto would have to 1 8 restrict uses and clean up as much as we 1 9 can starting immediately? And that's at 2 0 the bottom of the page. 2 1 A: I don't remember seeing that 2 2 particular assessment at that point in 2 3 time. 2 4 Q: But you do remember that there was 2 5 a decision to restrict the uses as far as Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003993 116 1 carbonless carbon paper? 2 A: Yes . 3 Qs Turning to page 2, do you agree 4 with the assessment of Dr. Richard that 5 Monsanto would have to work for alternate 6 products and end use applications for 7 Aroclor production facilities? 8 A: I'm not sure I understand exactly 9 what that statement is saying. 1 0 MR. PREUSS: I'm going to object, 1 1 no foundation. 1 2 MS. WELCH: At the time you were 1 3 working for an alternate product in the end 1 4 use application of carbonless carbon paper, 1 5 is that correct? 1 6 A: I can't be positive that it was 1 7 exactly during the time frame of the date 1 8 of this memo. But, clearly, at some point 1 9 in time we were working for alternate 2 0 products to replace Aroclor 1242 in 2 1 carbonless carbon paper. I guess the 2 2 compounding factor in my mind is for 2 3 Aroclor production facilities, I don't 2 4 quite understand what that ' S' saying. 2 5 Q: How about the next statement of Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003994 117 1 Dr. Richard, do you agree with the 2 statement that Monsanto should clean up the 3 Aroclors and substitute products where 4 necessary and when required before threats 5 of publicity and competitive activity 6 overwhelm us? 7 MR. PREUSS: What's the question? 8 MS. WELCH: I'm asking whether he 9 agreed as of 1969 with that assessment? 1 0 A: I do not recall. 1 1 Q: Looking at the paragraph where it 1 2 says "Florida or Gulf Coast," it's on the 1 3 same page, page 2, Aroclor 12 5 4 and Aroclor 1 4 1260 present issue, does that refresh your 1 5 recollection about Pensacola? 1 6 A: No. I don't remember hearing 1 7 about that incident. 1 8 Q: How about the paragraph under "San 1 9 Francisco," does it refresh your 2 0 recollection about the reports of finding 2 1 in San Francisco Bay? 2 2 A : No . 2 3 Q: Had you ever heard of the WARF 2 4 studies on DDT? 2 5 A: I don't recall. I presume that's Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003995 i ___________________________________________________________________________________ 118 1 Wisconsin Alumni Reserve Foundation, WARF. 2 Q: How had you heard of that? 3 A: They were a well known 4 laboratory. The financial results benefit 5 the Univesity of Wisconsin. And probably 6 the most famous product that they've ever J V '4 -x 'r` ' ! .... 7 discovered is Warferon, rat poison. 8 Q: Named after WARF? 9 A: Yes, exactly. But that family of 1 0 compounds, Dicumarol, which is a blood 1 1 thinner, taken by people with heart attacks 1 2 came from that same word. 1 3 Q: As far as you know, is it a 1 4 respected laboratory? 1 5 A: Very much so. 1 6 Q: You don't know specifically about 1 7 their studies on DDT, where the prospect of 1 8 PCBs might be found in those studies? 1 9 A : No . 2 0 Q: Turning to page 3, under 2 1 "Functional fluids," do you have any 2 2 knowledge of leakage from hydraulic fluids? 2 3 A: I have no background knowledge of 2 4 any of that. 2 5 Q: How about from air compressor Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003996 i ___________________________________________________________________________________ 119 1 fluids? 2 A: No, nothing at all about that. 3 MS. WELCH: Why don't we take a 4 lunch break. 5 (Noon Recess) . 6 MS. WELCH: Please mark this as 7 Exhibit 693. 8 (Deposition Exhibit Number 9 693 mark'd for identification). 1 0 MS. WELCH: Exhibit 693 purports 1 1 to be a memorandum from Elmer Wheeler to 1 2 Howard Minckler, with a number of cc's, 1 3 including Dr. Farrar, dated September 11, 1 4 1969, with the stamp Tran 025637 through 1 5 Tran 025638. Please take a moment to 1 6 review this. Were you aware that there was 1 7 a request for disbursement for Monsanto 1 8 support of the WARF study? 1 9 A : No . 2 0 Q: Do you recall seeing this document 2 1 before? 2 2 A: I do not remember it. 2 3 Q: Do you have any knowledge of what 2 4 happened with this request for disbursement 2 5 in support of the WARF study? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003997 12 0 1 A : No . 2 Q: Introduce this as Exhibit 694. 3 (Deposition Exhibit Number 4 6 9 4 mark'd for identification) . 5 MS. WELCH: Exhibit 694 purports 6 to be a memorandum from Dr. E.S. Tucker to 7 R.E. Keller with a number of cc's, 8 including Dr. Farrar, dated September 25, 9 1969. Bates stamp Tran 022055 through Tran 1 0 0 2 2 0 5 6. Have you ever seen this document 1 1 before? 1 2 A: I don't recall this document 1 3 specifically, no. 1 4 Q: Do yourecall any discussions 1 5 about the WARF studies during this time 1 6 period? .1 7 A : No . 1 8 Q : Were you aware that the WARF 1 9 analytical techniques were, with minor 2 0 exceptions, an exact duplication of 2 1 Monsanto's techniques? 2 2 A : No . 2 3 Q: Do you have any idea what the 2 4 techniques being used either by WARF or 2 5 Monsanto were for the identification of Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003998 12 1 1 PCB s ? 2 A : No . 3 Q: Do you know whatever happened to 4 the proposal for Monsanto to use the WARF 5 facility to eliminate some of the current 6 manpower and routine sample backlog 7 problems? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Turning to page 2, there is a 1 0 statement by Dr. Tucker that he believes he 1 1 feels that Aroclor 1 2 4 2 should not be used 1 2 in replacement formulations, and he's 1 3 referring back to Pydrauls. Do you have 1 4 any idea what happened with this 1 5 recommendation? ` 1 6 A: No. Bear in mind that my interest 1 7 was solely in the plasticizer area, and I 1 8 was not responsible for Pydrauls or any of 1 9 the functional fluids products. In the 2 0 case of a memorandum such as this, I would 2 1 scan -- being copied in, if that, indeed, 2 2 you know, if I did receive it, I'd scan it 2 3 for anything pertinent to plasticizers, 2 4 look at it for information, set it aside 2 5 and move on with my main problems, which Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000003999 12 2 1 were plasticizers. 2 Q: Please introduce as Exhibit 695 3 the following document. 4 (Deposition Exhibit Number 5 6 9 5 mark'd for identification) . 6 MS. WELCH: Exhibit 695 appears to 7 be a meeting report from Monsanto Chemicals 8 Limited research and development 9 department, Ruabon. The date appears to be 1 0 at the bottom of the second page, December 1 1 2 2, 1 9 6 9. From R . A . Lidgett to a number of 1 2 recipients, including Dr. Farrar. And the 1 3 identifying stamps are Tran 023687 to Tran 1 4 023688. Please take a moment to review 1 5 this. Do you recall seeing this document? 1 6 A : No. 1 7 Q: Did you ever hear about the 1 8 biodegradation studies being carried out at 1 9 Ruabon ? 2 0 A: I don't recall any studies at that 2 1 laboratory, no. 2 2 Q: Do you know who R.A. Lidgett is? 2 3 A: Yes. R.A. Lidgett was sort of Dr. 2 4 Keller's counterpart at the Monsanto 2 5 Chemicals Limited in Ruabon. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000004000 12 3 1 Q: Were you aware of the studies 2 being conducted by the Tolworth group? 3 As No . 4 Q: Turning to page 2, the second - 5 the first full paragraph, the statement is, 6 "Baily believes that what seems to be 1254 7 may in some cases be degraded 1242." Did 8 you ever hear that at about this time, 9 1969, 1970, that what appeared to be 1254 1 0 in the environment was actually degraded 11 1242? 1 2 A: No, I have no knowledge of that. 1 3 Q: Introduce as 696 the following 1 4 document. 1 5 (Deposition Exhibit Number 1 6 696 mark'd for identification) . 1 7 MS. WELCH: Exhibit 6 9 6 is a one 1 8 page memorandum from R.E. Keller to R . A. 1 9 Lidgett with a number of cc's, including 2 0 Dr. Farrar. And it's dated March 18, 2 1 1 9 7 0. With the identifying stamp of Tran 2 2 0 5 9 7 0 2. Do you recall hearing at about 2 3 this time about a meeting on PCBs that was 2 4 called by the Pollution Control 2 5 Administration? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000004001 12 4 1 A * No. 2 Q: Do you recall a concern that 3 existed within Monsanto about a, quote, 4 nationwide PCB program unfolding in public 5 agencies in the U.S. at the time? 6 A: I do not recall that specific 7 concern, no. 8 Q: Do you remember any other concern 9 about a campaign from private scientists at 1 0 this time? 1 1 A : No . 1 2 Q: Do you recall a concern that PCBs 1 3 may become regulated? 1 4 A: I don't recall a concern that they 1 5 may be regulated, no. 1 6 Q: The only concern that you can 1 7 recall was the concern that they persisted 1 8 in the environment? 1 9 A: Yes. And the concern that we 2 0 should remove Aroclor 1242 from the NCR 2 1 paper. 2 2 Q: Please introduce as Exhibit 697 2 3 the following document. 2 4 (Deposition Exhibit Number 2 5 697 mark'd for identification). Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000004002 i ___________________________________________________________________________________ 12 5 1 MS. WELCH? Exhibit 6 9 7 is a one 2 page document dated March 24, 1970 from 3 Elmer Wheeler to H.S. Bergen and J.E. 4 Springgate with a number of cc's, including 5 Dr. Farrar. Identifying stamp of Tran 6 0 0 9 7 0 1. Have you ever seen this document iy before? 8 A: I don't recall seeing this one, 9 no . 1 0 Q: Do you recall knowing, as 1 1 reflected in the paragraph enumerated 2, 1 2 that Monsanto had determined the isomeric 1 3 distribution'of the PCBs in Aroclor? 1 4 A: At the time of this document, I do 1 5 not recall that specifically. I am aware 1 6 that considerable study was undertaken to 1 7 determine the isomeric distribution of the 1 8 various Aroclors. 1 9 Q: Do you know when you became aware 2 0 of what Monsanto had determined regarding 2 1 isomeric distribution? 2 2 A: No, not really. 2 3 Q: Do youknow when that study began? 2 4 A: No. I think it's only fair to 2 5 reiterate that Aroclors as plasticizers Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 . WATER PCB-SD0000004003 ___________________________________________________________________________________ 12 6 1 were a relatively small portion of the 2 business, and I had two specific problems. 3 Once those were resolved, the whole issue 4 was put behind me. 5 Q: And do you feel that by this time, 6 March 1970, that the problem had basically 7 been put behind you? 8 A: I do not recall exactly when we 9 were able to reach that conclusion, 10 1 1 Q: And turning to the paragraph 1 2 that's enumerated number 3, the statement 1 3 is made that the above laboratory feels 1 4 that 1248 is incriminated as much as 1242, 1 5 1254 and 1260. Do you recall knowing this? 1 6 A : No . 1 7 Q: Please introduce as Exhibit 698 1 8 the following document. 1 9 (Deposition Exhibit Number 2 0 698 mark'd for identification). 2 1 MS. WELCH: Exhibit 698 is a 2 2 multi-page document from W.B. Papageorge to 2 3 a number of recipients, including Dr. 2 4 Farrar, dated March 30, 1970', with.a number 2 5 of identifying stamps, and I will use the Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 . (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000004004 ___________________________________________________________________________________ 12 7 1 one that is 0001458 through 0001470. 2 Please take a few minutes to read this 3 document. Have you ever seen this document 4 before? 5 A: I don't recall seeing this 6 document, no. I have a poor memory, I 7 guess, of things 20 plus years earlier. 8 Q: Do you recall a meeting with Mr. 9 Papageorge around this time to discuss 1 0 presentation to the CMC? 1 1 A: I don't recall a meeting involving 1 2 Papageorge specifically for this purpose 1 3 specifically at this time. I did, indeed, 1 4 have a number of meetings that included 1 5 Bill Papageorge as sort of the head of, or 1 6 task force commander. 1 7 Q: What kind of task force are you 1 8 referring to? 1 9 A: To resolve the PCB problems. 2 0 Q: Was this after the time that the 2 1 NCR reformulation had been completed? 2 2 A: I don't remember exactly when that 2 3 reformulation problem was completed, so I 2 4 really can't say. 2 5 Q: Did you participate in the Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000004005 12 8 1 presentation to the CMC? 2 As No . 3 Q: Turn to page 5. Objective 2 is 4 stated, "Inform customers of PCB problem 5 and the importance of preventing 6 environmental pollution both at their 7 plants or by their products." The status 8 is reported, "All functional fluids and 9 plasticizer customers in the U.S. have been 1 0 informed." Do you of your personal 1 1 knowledge know whether that's true? 1 2 A: I do not have personal knowledge 1 3 of that, and that would not be in my area 1 4 of responsibility. I was strictly 1 5 responsible for the technical aspects. 1 6 Q: Would that be a marketing 1 7 function? 1 8 A : Yes. 1 9 Q: And on the plasticizer side, that 2 0 was Cumming Paton who headed that at that 2 1 time? 2 2 A: Yes, I'd say Cumming Paton 2 3 probably had the principal responsibility 2 4 inmarketing. 2 5 Q: Page 6, under objective 3, there Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000004006 i ___________________________________________________________________________________ 12 9 1 is a discussion of status, and it addresses 2 the replacements for NCR paper 3 applications'. What is an alkylated 4 biphenyl? 5 A: An example of an alkylated 6 byphenyl is MIPB, where you react biphenyl 7 with an alkylating agent and attach the 8 alkylating agent to the biphenyl molecule. 9 Q: So, that could be referring to 1 0 MIPB? 1 1 A: Specifically, MIPB is included in 1 2 that generic description, yes. 1 3 Q: Please introduce this as Exhibit 1 4 6 9 9. 1 5 (Deposition Exhibit Number 1 6 6 9 9 mark'd for identification) . 1 7 MS. WELCH: Exhibit 6 9 9 is a two 1 8 page document which purports to be a 1 9 memorandum from W.B. Papageorge to a number 2 0 of recipients, including Dr. Farrar, 2 1 entitled "Aroclor labeling," with a number 2 2 of identifying stamps, I'm going to use the 2 3 one of 0 0 0 1 5 1 6 to 0 0 0 1 5 1 7. Please take a 2 4 moment to review this document. Do you 2 5 recall any discussions at or around this Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000004007 ___________________________________________________________________________________ 13 0 1 time, mid 1970, about modifying the Aroclor 2 labels? 3 A: No. That would be totally outside 4 my area of responsibility. I probably 5 received a copy of this for information 6 only. 7 Q; So, you had no responsibility for 8 the contents of a label that was put on an 9 Aroclor product? 1 0 A : No . 1 1 Q: Do you recall making any comment 1 2 on this proposed label? 1 3 A: I do not. 1 4 Q: You have no knowledge, then, of 1 5 what kinds of labels went on the Aroclor 1 6 products? .1 7 A : No . 1 8 Q: Please introduce this as Exhibit 1 9 7 0 0. 2 0 (Deposition Exhibit Number 2 1 7 0 0 mark'd for identification) . 2 2 MS. WELCH: Exhibit 700 is a 2 3 multi-page document purporting to be a 2 4 memorandum from R.E. Keller to Mr. 2 5 Papageorge with, a number of recipients, Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000004008 13 1 1 including Dr. Farrar. Once again a number 2 of identifying stamps, I'm going to use the 3 SCM 038534 through SCM 038537. I'm just 4 really going to ask you about the first 5 page. Have you ever seen this document 6 before? 7 A: I don't recall seeing this, no. 8 Q: Do you recall knowing at this 9. time, which is April 1970, that PCBs 1 0 typical of the Aroclor products had been 1 1 found in all of the samples that are 1 2 enumerated here? 1 3 A: I don't have specific memory on 1 4 that, no. 1 5 Q: How about general memory? 1 6 A: No. I could add that I'm aware 1 7 that analytical work was showing PCBs in 1 8 the environment, of course. 1 9 Q: At this time? 2 0 A: I would guess almost certainly by 2 1 this time I was well aware of that, yes, 2 2 because I'm confident that by this time I 2 3 had received instructions to remove Aroclor 2 4 12 4 2 from NCR paper, and I'm 'reasonably 2 5 certain of that by this date. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000004009 13 2 1 Q : Please introduce as Exhibit 701 2 the following document. 3 (Deposition Exhibit Number 4 701 mark'd for identification). 5 MS. WELCH: Exhibit 701 purports 6 to be a multi-page document from W.B. 7 Papageorge to a number of recipients, 8 including Dr. Farrar. Bates stamp Tran 9 003105 to Tran 003117, and dated October 6, 1 0 1970. I can short-circuit this. Given 1 1 your earlier testimony, I'm going to ask 1 2 you very, very limited questions about this 1 3 document. 1 4 A : Okay. 1 5 Q: If that's all right with your 1 6 counsel. Were you at the CMC meeting on 1 7 September 14th? 1 8 A : No . 1 9 Q: Do you know, do you have any 2 0 knowledge of what the PCB plan was that was 2 1 being presented to the CMC at this point? 2 2 A: I don't remember whether there was 2 3 a briefing before the meeting or not. 2 4 Q: Were you involved in any of that? 2 5 A: The meeting? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000004010 13 3 1 Q s The briefing before the meeting? 2 A: If there were one, I might likely 3 have been involved. But I don't remember 4 if there was or not. 5 Q: Did you have input into this 6 report, or do you recall, in terms of the 7 NCR reformulation? 8 A: I don't recall specifically, but I 9 suspect a fair amount of the text 1 0 concerning the carbonless carbon paper 1 1 solvent issue probably came directly from 1 2 me . 1 3 Q: Why do you suspect that? 1 4 A: Because Bill Papageorge would not 1 5 have had knowledge of that degree of detail 1 6 of it. 1 7 Q: And this is the detail about the 1 8 status of the replacement that you're 1 9 referring to? 2 0 A : Yes . 2 1 Q: You have no knowledge of anything 2 2 about the hydraulic fluids that are 2 3 described here? . 2 4 A: That's a totally separate business 2 5 group from the plasticizers, with totally Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000004011 i ___________________________________________________________________________________ 13 4 1 different kinds of applications, and that 2 was really of no concern of mine. 3 Q: Please introduce this as Exhibit 4 7 0 2. 5 (Deposition Exhibit Number 6 7 0 2 mark'd for identification) . 7 MS. WELCH: Exhibit 702 is a 8 memorandum from W.B. Papageorge to a number 9 of recipients, including Dr. Farrar, dated 1 0 December 7, 1970, with the identifying 1 1 figure of Tran 003094 through Tran 003104. 1 2 Entitled "PCB environmental problem 1 3 November status report." I am really going 1 4 to ask you two questions about this 1 5 document. First question is, do you recall 1 6 seeing it? 1 7 A: Specifically, no, I can't remember 1 8 seeing this. 1 9 Q: Do you recall being in a meeting 2 0 with Mr. Papageorge where there was any 2 1 discussion about the environmental status 2 2 of PCBs around this time? 2 3 A: I do not recall such a meeting. 2 4 Q: Turning to page 6, please read the 2 5 section to yourself under "Environmental Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000004012 i ___________________________________________________________________________________ 13 5 1 studies-Ruabon." Do you recall hearing 2 that researchers in Great Britain, namely, 3 at the Tolworth Laboratory, had, quote, 4 discovered that reproducing paper of the no 5 carbon type was a potent source of Aroclor 6 1242 ? 7 A: I do not recall this specific 8 instance, no. 9 Q: Do you recall a concern that the 1 0 presence of Aroclor 1242 in carbonless 1 1 carbon paper may explain the presence of 1 2 PCB in cardboard at around this time? 1 3 A: I don't recall that specific 1 4 concern. I am aware, as I've stated 1 5 earlier, that we felt at some point in time 1 6 that Aroclor 12 4 2 in NCR paper was an open .1 7 system application and, therefore, could 1 8 likely be responsible for environmental 1 9 contamination from PCBs. 2 0 Q: Do you know if in the process of 2 1 recycling the carbonless carbon paper, 2 2 ultimately some of the material ended up in 2 3 cardboard? 2 4 A: I do not know specifically that 2 5 that is the case. I would say that it's Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000004013 ___________________________________________________________________________________ 13 6 1 quite possible, though. I have no specific 2 knowledge that that occurred. But that's 3 reflective of the concern that we had and 4 why we were anxious to develop a 5 replacement. 6 Q: Turning to page 8. Under the 7 title "Turbinol 1 5 3 A . " Have you ever heard 8 -- did you ever hear during this time 9 period of the product called Turbinol 153A? 1 0 A: I can't recall it, no. 1 1 Q: How about MCS 1063? 1 2 A : No . 1 3 MS. WELCH: I have no further 1 4 questions. 1 5 MR. PREUSS: I have none. 1 6 MS. WELCH: You want to review and 1 7 have the witness sign? 1 8 MR. PREUSS : Please . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000004014 13 7 1 COMES NOW THE WITNESS, MARTIN 2 FARRAR, and having read the foregoing 3 transcript of the deposition taken on the 4 1st day of October, 1992, acknowledges by 5 signature hereto that it is a true and 6 accurate transcript of the testimony given 7 on the date hereinabove mentioned. 8 9 10 11 1 2 MARTIN FARRAR 13 1 4 Subscribed and sworn to me before this 1 5 _ _ _ __ day of __________ / 1 9 9 2. 1 6 My Commission expires: ______ 17 18 19 20 2 1 Notary Public 22 23 24 2 5 rg Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000004015 13 8 1 State of Missouri 2 SS . 3 City of St. Louis 4 I, Ronald A. Gore, a Notary Public 5 in and for the State of Missouri, duly 6 commissioned, qualified and authorized to 7 administer oaths and to certify to 8 depositions, do hereby certify that 9 pursuant to Notice in the civil cause now 1 0 pending and undetermined in the Superior 1 1 Court for the State of California for the 1 2 County of Los Angeles, to be used in the 1 3 trial of said cause in said court, I was 1 4 attended at the offices of Bryan Cave, One 1 5 Metropolitan Square, in the City of St. 1 6 Louis, State of Missouri, by the aforesaid 1 7 witness; and by the aforesaid attorneys; on 1 8 the 1st day of October, 1992. 1 9 The said witness, being of sound 2 0 mind and being by me first carefully 2 1 examined and duly cautioned and sworn to 2 2 testify the truth, the whole truth, and 2 3 nothing but the truth in the case 2 4 aforesaid, thereupon testified as is shown 2 5 in the foregoing transcript, said testimony Gore Reporting Co,, Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000004016 13 9 1 being by me reported in shorthand and 2 caused to be transcribed into typewriting, 3 and that the foregoing pages correctly set 4 forth the testimony of the aforementioned 5 witness, together with the questions 6 propounded by counsel and remarks and 7 objections of counsel thereto, and is in 8 all respects a full, true, correct and 9 complete transcript of the questions 1 0 propounded to and the answers given by said 1 1 witness; that signature of the deponent was 1 2 not waived by agreement of counsel. 1 3 I further certify that I am not of 1 4 counsel or attorney for either of the 1 5 parties to said suit, not related to nor 1 6 interested in any of the parties or their 1 7 attorneys. 1 8 Witness my hand and notarial seal 1 9 at St. Louis, Missouri, this _____ day of 2 0 __________ 1992. 2 1 My Commission expires May 22, 1994. 22 2 3 Notary Public in and for the State of Missouri Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000004017 DEPOSITION CORRECTION SHEET In Re: Upon reading the deposition and before subscribing thereto, the deponent indicated the following changes should be made: Page lo Line 2X Should read: &3S / Reason assigned for change: -fijpv Page 3/ Line Should read: Reason assigned for change: pk-lkaj A tM-J <kacu Page V-9 Line 5^ ^Should read: Reason assigned for change: p Ka p btpfv As'bcA.ls) A Te ace . Page Line 4 Should read: Reason assigned for change: 'TZ'uiajaj^f> Rp ip kect-el A 7'ec^upec/ Page o Line <^*9 Should read: . Reason assigned for change: f> ko*jfkecb-e Si'fptfe) A T-Cto*/ Page US Line / Should read: Reason assigned for change: Re *>e &ajlA_ Uvut.4*** ^ (ApamC Page H8 Line H Should read: Reason assigned for change: W OlAj-OU^lM TstlAui*/ tftcets'A.A.ecj. WARF- Page Line Should read: Reason assigned for chanae: Paae ume Should read Reason assicned for change: 1/kUJCtuA &CxAAjXA- WATER_PCB-SD0000004018 13 7 1 COMES NOW THE WITNESS, MARTIN 2 FARRAR, and having read the foregoing 3 transcript of the deposition -taken on the 4 1st day of October, 1992, acknowledges by 5 signature hereto that it is a true and 6 accurate transcript of the testimony given 7 on the date hereinabove mentioned. 8 9 1 0 fai QA^ui ojouvu- 11 1 2 MARTIN FARRAR 13 1 4 Subscribed and sworn to me before this 1 5 day of _ _ #`19 9 2 1 6 My Commission expires: _ j/z/ezr. - 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 5 rg Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000004019