Document Evp8eY8NQZkmL2wEOpYJjqQ9b

pcs pob IN THE MATTER OF: Judith Bechtold, ei at. vs. Monsanto Companyy et al. Cause No. 922-00911 Deposition of William B. Papageorge, P.E. June 6, 1994 nvk.' (fzpp Gore & Perry Reporting Company 100 North Broadway, Suite 1175 Saint Louis, Missouri 63102 (314) 241-6750 621-4790 (800)878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000015430 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT - CITY OF ST. LOUIS 2 STATE OF MISSOURI 3 JUDITH BECHTOLD, wife of/and 4 STEPHEN E. BECHTOLD, ELIZABETH 5 TAMEWITZ, as Personal 6 Representative of her deceased 7 husband, Kenneth F. Tamewitz, 8 KELLIE LEE TRISLER, as Personal 9 Representative of h,e r deceased 1 0 mother, NINA TRISLER, PHYLLIS 1 1 GOODMAN, as Personal Representative 1 2 of her deceased husband, 1 3 CHARLES GOODMAN, JR., 14 1 5 Plaintiffs , 16 1 7 vs NO. 922-00911 18 1 9 MONSANTO COMPANY and 2 0 WESTINGHOUSE ELECTRIC 2 1 CORPORATION, 22 2 3 Defendants . 2 4 Deposition of WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, P.E. 2 5 Taken on June 6, 1994 Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 1 WATER PCB-SD0000015431 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT - CITY OF ST. LOUIS 2 STATE OF MISSOURI 3 4 JUDITH BECHTOLD, wife of/and 5 STEPHEN E. BECHTOLD, ELIZABETH 6 TAMEWITZ, as Personal 7 Representative of her deceased 8 husband, Kenneth F. Tamewitz, 9 KELLIE LEE TRISLER, as Personal I 1 0 Representative of her deceased 1 1 mother, NINA TRISLER, PHYLLIS 1 2 GOODMAN, as Personal Representative 1 3 of her deceased husband, 1 4 CHARLES GOODMAN, JR., 15 1 6 Plaintiffs, 17 1 8 vs NO. 922-00911 19 2 0 MONSANTO COMPANY and 2 1 WESTINGHOUSE ELECTRIC 2 2 CORPORATION, 23 2 4 Defendants . 25 Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 2 WATER PCB-SD0000015432 3 1 Deposition of WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, 2 P.E., taken on behalf of the Plaintiffs, at 3 the law offices of Husch & Eppenberger, 100 4 North Broadway, Suite 1300, in the City of 5 St. Louis, State of Missouri, on the 6th day 6 of June, 1994, before Victoria L. Wilson, 7 Registered Professional Reporter and Notary 8 Public . 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015433 4 1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: 2 3 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: 4 MR. C. JOSEPH MURRAY 5 MR. JOSEPH A. RACE 6 MURRAY LAW FIRM 7 909 Poydras Street, Suite 2550 8 New Orleans, LA 70112 9 1 0 FOR THE DEFENDANT MONSANTOCOMPANY: 1 1 MS . CAROL RUTTER 1 2 Husch & Eppenberger 1 3 100 North Broadway, Suite 1300 1 4 St. Louis, Missouri 63102 15 1 6 FOR THE DEFENDANT WESTINGHOUSE ELECTRIC: 1 7 MR. RICHARD A. WUNDERLICH 1 8 Lewis, Rice & Fingersh 1 9 8182 Maryland Avenue, Suite 400 2 0 St. Louis, Missouri 63105 21 22 23 24 25 Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015434 1 INDEX 2 3 Examinat ion by Mr . Race 4 Examinat ion by Ms . Rutter 5 Examinat ion by Mr . Race 6 7 EXHIBITS 8 9 (None marked) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PAGE 6 91 95 Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 5 WATER PCB-SD0000015435 6 1 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, P.E., 2 of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to 3 testify the truth, the whole truth, and 4 nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, 5 deposes and says in reply to oral . 6 interrogatories propounded as follows, to-wit : 7 EXAMINATION 8 QUESTIONS BY MR. RACE: 9 Q: Mr. Papageorge, you understand that 1 0 you are produced here today as a designated 1 1 ive of Monsanto. 1 2 A: I understand that, yes. 1 3 MS. RUTTER: Mr. Papageorge, on the 1 4 record, Mr. Race has started chewing Life 1 5 Savers during the course of his questioning. 1 6 If you find his questions difficult to 1 7 understand because of the Life Saver, please 1 8 ask him to restate the question. 1 9 MR. RACE: Or swallow. 2 0 THE WITNESS: I will. 2 1 Q: Have you seen a copy of the notice of 2 2 deposition? 2 3 A: I believe I have seen a copy, yes. 2 4 Q: And there are certain areas which you 2 5 have been designated to speak to? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015436 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 7_____________________________________________________________________________________________ _____________________________ ._________________________________________________________________________________ A: That's my understanding. Qs Are you now familiar with any of those areas? A: Yes, I believe I am. Q: Okay. Have you done anything in preparation for this deposition, reviewed documents, for example, or spoken with anyone? A: I have spoken with attorneys and I have reviewed a.few documents. Q: The nature of the documents that you reviewed, could you tell me what those were? MS. RUTTER: That's for this deposition, as opposed to the last one. He already asked you about that. A: That's what -- I am trying to keep a distinction in my own thinking here. If I remember correctly, I saw copies of letters and memoranda and call reports from marketing people in Monsanto which had my name somewhere on these documents and related to PCB's and Westinghouse . Q: Call reports, memorandums and letters? A: And letters, yes. Q: Okay. How many documents were those? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015437 8 1 A: I didn't count them, of course. I 2 would suggest they might have stacked up about 3 an inch deep. 4 Q : Okay. And did those documents 5 refresh your memory on what occurred at ... 6 Monsanto when you were employed by Monsanto 7 involved with the PCB production or otherwise 8 involved with PCB1s? 9 A: Some of them, yes. 'to i 1 0 MR. RACE: Okay. So based on that, I 1 1 would call for their production since they 1 2 refreshed his memory. 1 3 MS. RUTTER: Well, he said some of 1 4 them did. I will attempt to locate them and 1 5 produce them in due course, Counsel. 1 6 MR. RACE: I think if the witness has 1 7 refreshed his memory from the documents, I am 1 8 entitled to see the documents prior to the 1 9 witness's -- or contemporaneously with the 2 0 witness's testimony. 2 1 MS. RUTTER: I don't think that's 2 2 correct, Counsel. 2 3 MR. RACE: Under the federal rules, I 2 4 believe it is and my understanding is Missouri 2 5 follows the federal rules. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015438 9 1 MS. RUTTER: Missouri does not 2 completely follow the federal rules. 3 MR. RACE: Okay. So your position is 4 that you will not provide me with the 5 documents now but at a later date? .. 6 MS. RUTTER: My position is I don't 7 know if I can provide you with the documents 8 now. As an accommodation to Counsel, I will 9 attempt to figure out what they were and 1 0 provide them to you at a later date. 1 1 MR. RACE: Okay. Well, then, I will 1 2 reserve all objections associated with the 1 3 production of those documents. 1 4 Q: Could you state your address, please? 1 5 A: 321 Pebble Valley Drive, St. Louis, 1 6 Missouri 63141. 1 7 Q: And your telephone number, please? 1 8 A: Area code 314-878-3513. 1 9 Q: You had been employed by Monsanto, as 2 0 you previously testified, until about late 2 1 1989, was it? 2 2 A: No, the end of 1986. 2 3 Q: '86. Excuse me. And we previously 2 4 questioned you as to what capacities you had 2 5 held during that period of time. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015439 11 1 A: It was a new position created for the 2 assignment given to me at that time. 3 Q: Okay. And what prompted its 4 creation? 5 A: The reported incidence of PCB's in 6 environmental samples. 7 Q: And this was first brought to 8 Monsanto's attention by the work done in 9 Sweden; is that.correct? 1 0 As Yes. 1 1 Q: Okay. At that time was Monsanto 1 2 aware of the consequences of the Yusho 1 3 incident? 1 4 MS . RUTTER : At what time, Counsel? 1 5 MR . RACE : In 1970. 1 6 MS . RUTTER : I n 1 9 7 0 ? 1 7 MR . RACE : Yes, when the position was 1 8 created. 1 9 A: In 1970, yes, there were 2 0 representatives of Monsanto that were aware of 2 1 the Yusho incident. __________ 2 2 Q: At what point did Monsanto become 2 3 aware that the adverse health effects noted at 2 4 Yusho were associated with PCB and its related 2 5 compounds ? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015440 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 12______________________________________________________________________________________________ ;_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ MS. RUTTER: I object to the vague and confusing form of the question. A: I need some help with the question in that you use "related compounds" and I need some definition of that; it would help me respond. And then as I recall your question, you asked when did Monsanto representatives become aware -- Q: Of adverse health effects. u A: -- of adverse health effects. Q: At Yusho. A: -- at Yusho being associated with PCB's and related compounds. Q: And/or its related compounds. MS. RUTTER: I object to that question. He is not designated on that area. MR. RACE: I want to know what he has related to Monsanto's representation to government's representation, since I believe that the Yusho incident precipitated the creation of his position, I believe that it very well may be. MS. RUTTER: Phrase your question in terms of one of the topics that he is designated on, then, if you are asking it in Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015441 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ______________________________________________________________________________________________ 13'______________________________________________________________________________________________ the context of what, if any, statements did Monsanto make to the United States Government about - - MR. RACE: Well, the representation covers not only information disseminated but it is information gathered. You know, you don't tell somebody something unless you have learned about it so I would assume that it is-- . * MS. RUTTER: Joseph, he is not designated on the question that you asked. I agree with you that I think you can phrase it in terms of what was said or what was given to government agencies or it is possible you can. I would ask that you stick with your corporate designations. He is designated on topic number one and you may ask a question relating to topic number one. Q: What representations were made to government concerning the Yusho incident and j its relationship to PCB's? MS. RUTTER: I object to the use of the word "representations" but subject to that objection as to form, you may answer the question. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015442 14 1 MR. RACE: And for the record, we 2 will note that all further comments regarding 3 "representations" are objected to. 4 A: Monsanto and its representatives made 5 no representation, to use your word, regarding 6 the Yusho incident and the presence of PCB's. 7 Q: Did government agencies question 8 Monsanto as to any connection between Yusho 9 and PCB's? . 1 0 A: Monsanto representatives were present 1 1 at a meeting in North Carolina in December of 1 2 '71 at which the subject of the Yusho Rice 1 3 Brand oil incident was discussed. The meeting 1 4 in North Carolina was arranged by 1 5 representatives of government. 1 6 Q: Is that the first time that inquiries 1 7 were made of Monsanto as to the Yusho 1 8 incident? 1 9 A: That is my understanding that was the 2 0 first government contact with Monsanto and it 2 1 wasn't direct to Monsanto, it was to the 2 2 audience that was assembled at this session. 2 3 At that time, as I remember, because I was 2 4 there personally, there was considerable 2 5 confusion brought about primarily by language Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015443 15 1 difficulties and lack of .specific details. 2 Q: Specific details concerning Yusho and 3 the language difficulties being Japanese/ 4 English; am I correct in those assumptions? N 5 A: That was -- yes, both of those - 6 difficulties were hampering any understanding 7 of what took place and what the results were 8 noted and what caused it. 9 Q: Okay. Subsequent to that meeting, 1 0 did Monsanto have an official policy with 1 1 respect to Yusho which was represented to the 1 2 government ? 1 3 MS. RUTTER: I object to the vague 1 4 and confusing form of the question. 1 5 A: No, Monsanto did not take any 1 6 position regarding the Yusho incident as it 1 7 relates to communications with the government 1 8 because it had no data of its own to help it 1 9 arrive at any conclusions. 2 0 Q: And is that true from 1971 through 2 1 your termination at that particular position 2 2 in 1976? 2 3 A : Yes. 2 4 Q: Now, with respect to the J 2 5 representations of the government concerning Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015444 16 1 PCB's, is it fair to categorize those 2 representations into two areas, that being 3 environmental concern and worker concern? 4 MS. RUTTER: I object, once again, to 5 counsel's unfair use of the term .. 6 "representations." That!s a legal term of art 7 which has a particular unpleasant spin on it 8 and the overtone is in Counsel's voice. 9 MR. RACE.: Off the record. 1 0 (Discussion off the record) 11 Q: The communications made by Monsanto AM 1 2 to government regarding PCB's could fall 1M 1 3 within the two categories of environmental and 1 4 toxicity; is that a fair analytical framework 1 5 to put this in? 1 6 A: Well, those two categories were 1 7 certainly included but I can think of other 1 8 areas that could be included in the overall 1 9 discussions such as -- 2 0 Q: Okay. What I am trying to do, 2 1 Mr. Papageorge, is get some kind of framework 2 2 in which We can discuss this and being, you 2 3 know, a pseudo-type - A personality, I would 2 4 like to get a list and then we can go down the 1//2 5 list and check that we have talked about each Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015445 17 1 of the areas, so if you can help me with a 2 framework in which you visualize 3 representations or communications to h 4 government, it may facilitate this 5 deposition . 6 A: Well, that's such a broad subject, I 7 may miss some points here but we certainly 8 discussed with the government the chemistry of 9 PCB's, the manufacturing of PCB's -- 10 Q: Okay. Chemistry, manufacturing. 1 1 A: -- the modes of shipping PCB's, the 1 2 uses to which they were put, how they were 1 3 labeled, how they were tested for health 1 4 effects, how they were analyzed in the early 1 5 days and how the new technology was evolving 1 6 and the new analytical methods were being 1 7 developed, their presence in samples that did 1 8 not seem to be related to industrial sites or 1 9 applications -- 2 0 Q: Presence in the environment? 2 1 A: -- presence in the environment, not 2 2 only near the site of use but distant places, 2 3 these kind of things. It is a very broad 2 4 subject so we tried to cover just any question 2 5 that came to people's minds. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015446 18 1 Qs Okay. With respect to the chemistry 2 of PCB's, what was related to the government 3 as to the chemical composition of that 4 product? 5 MS. RUTTER: I object to the 6 overbroad form of the que.stion. 7 A: Again, are we limiting this to the 8 '70-' 76 period or -- 9 Q : Yes. *w 1 0 A: In that period? Well, it would 1 1 include, of course, the broad categorization 1 2 of these materials as being mixtures of 1 3 various types of chlorinated biphenyls; it 1 4 included Monsanto's method of identifying 1 5 these mixtures by a trade name followed by a 1 6 number that had some meaning to Monsanto. 1 7 Later, as the analytical methodology was 1 8 further developed, we were able to share with 1 9 the government information regarding how much 2 0 of each of the types of PCB's was present in 2 1 the commercial mixtures that were sold. 2 2 Q: Okay. Now, when you say, "commercial 2 3 mixtures that were sold," by Monsanto? 2 4 A Yes. 2 5 Q Okay. For example, with the Aroclor Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015447  1 1 2 4 2, is that a pure or 100 percent PCB? 2 MS. RUTTER: I object to the vague 3 and ambiguous form of the question. 4 A: It was considered to represent 100 5 percent PCB 1 s and it was later broken down 6 into so many percent of the dichlor and so 7 many percent of the trichlor version but no 8 attempt was made to distinguish between the 9 different dichlors and the different trichlors r 1 0 and so on. Being a commercial mixture and not 1 1 an absolutely refined laboratory type 1 2 chemical, the description of being 100 percent 1 3 PCB 1 s is okay for commercial purposes but not 1 4 for a refined laboratory chemical so there 1 5 must have been, as in all industrial 1 6 chemicals, some unknowns present. 1 7 Q: Am I correct -- would you agree that^ ^ 1 8 with the PCB compound such as the Aroclor 1 9 1242, there are approximately 70 isomers in 2 0 that compound? 2 1 A: I don't remember the number. I don't 2 2 challenge the 70 but -- 2 3 Q: Does that sound approximately right? 2 4 A: That sounds about right. There are 2 5 209 available so that's about right but -- I Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015448 20______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ ______________________________ 1 could be wrong, too. 2 Q: Now, am I also correct in stating 3 that not all of the 70 isomers are present in 4 each batch of the 1242? 5 A: That I don't know. I am of the . 6 understanding that there may be some variation 7 in the percentages of each of these but, 8 overall, the mixture still represents the same 9 kind of group. . r 1 0 Q: In the event that this is read as 1 1 opposed to your testifying, could youexplain 1 2 to the jury your appreciation of an isomer? 1 3 As I can give you mine. 1 4 Q: You are an analytical chemist, are 1 5 you not? 1 6 A : No, sir. 1 7 Q: You are a chemist? 1 8 A: Chemical engineer. 1 9 Q: Chemical engineer. Okay. Could you 2 0 give me your opinion of an isomer? 2 1 MS. RUTTER: Counsel, just for the 2 2 record, Dr. Robert Kaley, who is an analytical 2 3 chemist, has been designated on this topic. 2 4 There is some overlap, obviously. The 2 5 analytical chemist questions hopefully are Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015449 21____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 1 being directed to Dr. Kaley by Joe Murray at 2 this moment. 3 But now you may answer your non- 4 analytical chemistry understanding of what an 5 isomeris. .. 6 A: I think I can best address it if I 7 would just select for discussion purposes a 8 di chi orobypheny1 . The two chlorines that are 9 associated with.dichlorobyphenyl can be 1 0 located in any of ten different positions on 1 1 the byphenyl molecule or structure. 1 2 Q: Would it help to draw a picture? 1 3 A: I will try without a picture and if 1 4 it doesn't, we will go to a picture. If you 1 5 can imagine the two chlorines being affixed to 1 6 the byphenyl molecule in a given position, 1 7 that is one isomer. Change one of the 1 8 chlorines to a different position, that's a 1 9 second isomer. Move it on to a third 2 0 position, you have got a third isomer. Now, 2 1 eventually, you keep moving it and you will 2 2 end up repeating the original positions 2 3 described but each change in the respective 2 4 positions of those two molecules to each other 2 5 represents an isomer. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015450 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 22______________________________________________________________________________________________ ._____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Q: Having said that, can you draw me a picture? A: I will try. I will represent the byphenyl molecule by drawing two hexagon configurations that are connected with the one carbon in the center. I call that sort of a nose-to-nose configuration. And we can have chlorines affixed to any one of the remaining corners of these hexagons. For example, you can have chlorine there and a chlorine there. I believe that's the one-two position. I'm not real certain of the numbering system. Q: Yes, the numbering system. A: But it is the second position removed from the common carbon atom or we can have -Q: Okay. Or there can also be varying numbers of chlorinesattached to the basic molecule; is that not correct? Sometimes you can have -- A : You can have three, you can have four and five. The maximum is five on each, which would make it ten forthe total so -- but within any grouping, like the two -- the dichloro -- the members of that dichloro group are called isomers toeach other. I don't Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015451 23____________________________________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 1 think it is correct to say that you have a 2 dichloro that's an isomer to a trichloro. The 3 isomers refers to the same family, the two's, 4 the three's, the four's. I don't know what 5 else to show here except that instead of this 6 chlorine being here, it could be over here 7 somewhere on the other biphenyl molecules. 8 Q: These chlorines would be symmetrical? 9 MS. RUTTER: ^ Object to the vague and 1 0 confusing form of the question. 1 1 A: They could be and by "symmetrical," 1 2 that means that no matter how you look at this 1 3 molecule, the chlorines are the same with 1 4 respect -1 5 Q: -- to the left-hand side as the - 1 6 A: And the right-hand side, yes, or the 1 7 top to the bottom. 1 8 Q: But they need not be? 1 9 A: That's correct. 2 0 Q: Now, in 1242, they have approximately 2 1 70 isomers with chlorines attached at various 2 2 portions, various points; is that correct? 2 3 MS. RUTTER: Objection, the witness 2 4 has previously testified that that is beyond 2 5 his area of expertise. I am sure that Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015452 2 4______________________________________________________________________________________________.___________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 1 Dr. Kaley is capable of answering that 2 que s tion . 3 Q: Well, you said you didn't know that 4 there were 70 but there were several, correct? 5 A: There are several chlorinated . 6 byphenyl groups ranging -- varying in the 7 number of chlorines associated with each 8 identified type of PCB. 9 Q: Now, if .I were to number the isomers 1 0 from 1 through 70, would you agree that you 1 1 can have a predominance of numbers 1 through 1 2 15 in one batch and in a second batch of the 1 3 1242 you could have a predominance of 16 1 4 through 32 and, yet, the two batches would 1 5 still be considered Aroclor 1242? 1 6 MS. RUTTER: I object to the vague 1 7 and confusing form of the question. 1 8 A: If I understand your question, your 1 9 description in your question, correctly, I 2 0 don't think you will end up with the 2 1 equivalent in those two batches. You just 2 2 won't have enough chlorine to satisfy the 42 2 3 percent criteria. 2 4 Q: Okay. I didn't say only 1 through 15 2 5 but you can have a predominance of 1 through Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015453 1 15 in one batch and the second batch you can 2 have a predominance of 16 through 32? 3 MS. RUTTER: I object to the vague 4 and confusing form of the question. 5 Q s Are you with me, Doc ? 6 A : I believe I am. When you s ay 1 7 through 16, that tells me that -- as compared 8 to 16 through 32, that sort of tells me that 9 the first one descri.%bed has a lot of the lower 1 0 chlorinated and the second onehas thehigher 1 1 chlorinated. If that's true, then the batches 1 2 are not the same. They will not be of the 1 3 type that would analyze 42 percent by weight 1 4 chlorine. 1 5 Q: Okay. Try it one more time. My 1 6 appreciation of the chemistry of PCB's is that 1 7 you have an Aroclor 1 24 2. The 12, according 1 8 to Monsanto, indicates that it is a 1 9 polychlorinated byphenyl and the last two 2 0 numbers indicate the percentage of 2 1 chlorination in that byphenyl; is that 22 2 3 A: More accurately, it isthepercent of 2 4 chlorine in that mixture on a weight basis. 2 5 Q: Okay. Now, in this compound, you can Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015454 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26______________________________________________________________________________________________ ._____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ have -- for purposes of this question, let us say 70 isomers, realizing you are not quite sure how many isomers. In order to maintain the 42 percent chlorine, you have to add up all the chlorine molecules and it has to come to 42 percent of the compound by weight as a whole, correct? A: Correct. Q: Okay. N.ow, let us assume that 1 w through 10 are less chlorinated and 60 through 70 are more chlorinated within the compound isomers. Okay? A: All right. Q: It is possible in formulating this product that you can have at one point one isomer in the range of 60 to 70 and ten in the range of 1 to 10 in the first batch of 12 4 2. In the second batch you have one or two in the range of 1 to 10 isomers, I'm going to name the isomers numerically, and in the 60 to 70 range they increase by two. So it remains the constant is the 42 percent but the exact number from 1 to 70 may vary? MS. RUTTER: I object to the overbroad, vague and confusing form of the Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015455 27 1 question. 2 A: Well, in the real world, when these 3 batches are made, although the chlorine 4 affixes itself to the byphenyl randomly, it 5 has been found from decades of manufacture 6 that the end product is pretty much the same 7 batch after batch so when you talk, as you 8 did, about the 70 and trying to divide it from 9 1 to 10 and 6 0 to 7 0>t I suppose theoretically 1 0 that kind of discussion could be held but it 1 1 doesn't happen that way in the chemical pot in 1 2 which it is made. 1 3 Q: Okay. Did Monsanto have a mechanism 1 4 whereby it analyzed the PCB's after their N 1 5 production to determine the precise percentage 1 6 of the various isomers within a compound? 1 7 A: At what time? 1 8 Q: At any time. 1 9 MS. RUTTER: Well, you are testifying 2 0 up through approximately 1976. 2 1 A: Correct. I understand that. 2 2 Q : 0kay . 2 3 A: Starting in about 1970, the 2 4 analytical chemist had the capability or had 2 5 the methodology to determine the types of Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015456 28 1 PCB's that were present in the mixture. Prior \ 2 to that, the technology was not developed and 3 that kind of detail information was not 4 available . 5 Q: Okay. So it did become available but 6 not until 1970 or later? 7 A: 70 or later, yes. 8 Q: Okay. And when that detailed 9 analysis was available, did Monsanto then 1 0 perform analysis on each of the batches of 1 1 Aroclors that were made to find out the 1 2 relationship between the various isomers? 1 3 A: Not for every batch, no. 1 4 Q: You would do it on a random basis? 1 5 A : Yes. 1 N- , ,, _ 1 6 Q: How many tests per hundred batches? <ro 1 7 A: Oh, I don't have a number. You will ^ 1 8 have to ask the analytical chemist that. 1 9 Q: The toxicity of an Aroclor, such as 2 0 1264, will, in part, depend upon the various 2 1 combination of isomers present in that 2 2 compound; is that correct? 2 3 MS. RUTTER: I object to the 2 4 question. This witness is not designated to 2 5 testify on the toxicity of PCB's. You have Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015457 29______________________________________________________________________________________________ ._____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 1 got the wrong witness, Counsel. 2 MR. RACE: Your other witness didn't 3 know about the isomers. Now, do you want to 4 bring your other witness with the 5 information -- I'm asking him -- then bring 6 your other witness in to ask about the 7 toxicity? You told me to wait until now. 8 MS. RUTTER: I did not tell you to 9 wait until now on the toxicity of PCB's. w > 1 0 Mr. Papageorge is not a medical doctor. 1 1 MR. RACE: And your medical doctor 1 2 didn't know about varying isomers. You said I 1 3 would have to ask the chemist. 1 4 MS. RUTTER: What's your question, 1 5 again? 1 6 Q: Do you understand that question? 1 7 MS. RUTTER: No, what is your 1 8 question, again? I'm asking for me. 1 9 MR. RACE: Read it back. 2 0 (The requested portion of the record read 2 1 by the reporter) 2 2 MS. RUTTER: Mr. Papageorge, is that 2 3 a question that you feel comfortable - 2 4 A: Well, I have an" understanding. 2 5 MS. RUTTER: A lay understanding? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015458 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 30___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ A: A lay understanding. Yes, there is evidence that the types of PCB's present in a mixture do influence the health effects of that particular mixture as compared to a mixture of a different type. - Q: Okay. So in other words, would you agree that you can have one batch of 1242 which is more toxic than the second batch of 1242 depending on the configuration of isomers within the two batches? MS. RUTTER: I object to the overbroad, vague and confusing form of the question and it mischaracterizes prior testimony. A: When I talked about -- when I referred to the differeny effects of the different mixtures of PCB's, I do not associate that with the differences from batch to batch of the same type of commercial PCB mixture so a batch of, let's say, 1242 followed by another batch of 1242, it is my understanding the toxicity, when determined with the proper testing, would come out essentially the same. It's when batches of 1242 are compared to, say, batches of 1260. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015459 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 31______________________________________________________________________________________________ ._____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Q : Yes, well, everybody will agree that the chlorination -- that there is lots of testimony that the chlorination will depend upon -- excuse me -- there is lots of testimony which indicates a relationship . between the degree of chlorination and toxicity. What I am specifically asking is as to whether you have any knowledge of varying degrees of toxicity^within the same Aroclor premised on the varying percentages of isomers . MS. RUTTER: Objection, repetitious, asked and answered. Q: Subject to the objection, can you answer? MS. RUTTER: And it is also outside of Mr. Papageorge 1 s area of designation? A: No, I do not know. Q: Okay. You don't know. That's fine. MR. RACE: Can I take a five-minute break? MS . RUTTER : Sure . (Recess) Q: What, if any, representations or communications were made to the government Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015460 32 1 with respect to contaminants in the PCB's? 2 MS. RUTTER: I object to the use of 3 the term "representations" and would also ask 4 for counsel to put a time frame on his 5 question. 6 Q: Unless otherwise specified, this is 7 up until the 1976 period of time in which you 8 were employed in the capacity of whatever 9 making representations to the U.S. Government? 1 0 MS. RUTTER: Objection to the use of 1 1 the word "representations." 1 2 A: Up through 1976, Monsanto had no 1 3 information of its own to share with 1 4 ives of the government regarding 1 5 the presence of other chemicals in its PCB 1 6 mixture so none was -- no communication was 1 7 held . . 1 8 Q: Okay. So no communication was given 1 9 to the government of a possibility of furans 2 0 or dioxins present in the PCB compounds; is 2 1 that correct? 2 2 A: That is correct. 2 3 Q: Now, you said Monsanto had no 2 4 information oh its own; is that correct? 2 5 A: That is correct. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015461 __________________________________________________________________________________________ 33 c__ 1 Q: But is it also not true that Dr. Voss 2 in Holland had discovered the presence of 3 furans as early as 1 9 7 0 in the PCB's 4 manufactured in Europe? 5 As Dr. Voss did have that information 6 and it was already shared with the government 7 by Dr. Voss and others. 8 Q: Okay. In other words, Dr. Voss had 9 direct communications with the U.S. 1 0 Gove rnment ? 1 1 A : Yes. 1 2 Q: Okay. Did the government ever 1 3 question as to whether the furan contamination 1 4 noted by Dr. Voss was present in PCB's being 1 5 manufactured by Monsanto in the United States? 1 6 MS. RUTTER: Did you understand 1 7 that? I find his questions very difficult to 1 8 understand due to the Life Saver crunching. r----------------------------------------- '" 1 9 Q: Do you understand that? 2 0 A: I think I did. As I understand your 2 1 question, you asked if Dr. Voss was ever asked 2 2 by the United States representatives. 2 3 Q: Not Dr. Voss, was Monsanto ever 2 4 questioned as to whether or not furans were in 2 5 the PCB compounds manufactured in the United Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015462 34 1 States? 2 As Yes. 3 Q: And what was Monsanto's response to 4 that inquiry ? 5 MS. RUTTER: At what time period, 6 Counsel? 7 Q: Prior to 1976. 8 A: The inquiry was asked of me and 9 others in Monsanto and the answer was we are 1 0 looking and have not found it. 1 1 Q : Okay . 1 2 A: And Dr. Voss in Europe also looked at 1 3 Monsanto's samples and did not find it. 1 4 Q: Ultimately furans were found in 1 5 PCB's; is that correct? 1 6 A: Well, which PCB's? They were found 1 7 in some European-produced material early on. 1 8 Q: And they were ultimately found in the 1 9 PCB's manufactured by Monsanto in the United 2 0 States? 2 1 A: Monsanto, yes. Yes. 2 2 Q: And it was Dr. Kaley who found them; 2 3 is that correct? 2 4 A: Well, Dr. Kaley certainly found them, 2 5 yes. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015463 35 1 Q: Whether or not they were found by 2 someone other than Dr. Kaley, do you know? 3 A: There were some analytical chemists 4 in the Food and Drug Administration that 5 reported finding them in 1975 as best I retail 6 but they were still a little bit uncertain at 7 that time. 8 Q: Was there any technical development 9 from 1970 when Dr. Voss found furans in the 1 0 PCB's to 1975 when the Food and Drug 1 1 Administration found furans in PCB's which 1 2 made possible the discovering of furans in 1 3 PCB's manufactured by Monsanto U.S.? 1 4 A: I understand there was. U 1 5 Q: Do you know what that development 1 6 was? 1 7 A: I would ask Dr. Kaley. 1 8 Q: Okay. Would that be spectrometry? 1 9 A: Well, spectrometry is certainly 2 0 involved but I don't know what fine tune knobs 2 1 they were turning or what else they did to 2 2 their methodology. f2 3 Q: Now) did Monsanto represent to the ft 2 4 U.S. Government on the issue of contaminants 2 5 any likelihood of furans or dioxins being Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015464 36 1 found as contaminants in the PCB's b 2 manufactured by Monsanto U.S.? r3 MS. RUTTER: Objection to the use of 3? 4 the term "represent." Counsel, I thought you 5 agreed to amend your questions to use the ..word 6 "communicate" rather than "represent." 7 MR. RACE: Communicate. 8 MS. RUTTER: Could you please restate 9 the question using the word "communicate"? 1 0 MR. RACE: No, just the same question 1 1 this time with "communicate," can you get it? 1 2 It is a long question, Carol, give me 1 3 a break. 1 4 MS. RUTTER: I'm sure the court 1 5 reporter would be happy to read it back. 1 6 Q: Do you understand the question? 1 7 MS. RUTTER: Probably not after this 1 8 fiveminutes. ' 1 9 A: Right now I'm confused. 2 0 MR. RACE: Why don't you read the 2 1 question back. 2 2 (The requested portion of the record read 2 3 by the reporter) 2 4 MS. RUTTER: I object to the compound 2 5 form of the question. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015465 _______________________________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ 37 1 AsMonsanto did not communicate to the 2 government the likelihood of furans being 3 present because all of the analytical efforts 4 made by both Monsanto and other laboratories 5 did not establish the presence of furans in 6 Monsanto-produced PCB's so the discussion did 7 not take that turn that you are asking. 8 Q: Okay. So the representation to the 9 United States Government was that it was more 1 0 likely than not that furans were not present 1 1 in Monsanto PCB's? 1 2 MS. RUTTER: Oh, objection, 1 3 mischaracterizes prior testimony and object to 1 4 the use of the word "representation.". 1 5 Q: Subject to the objection, can you 1 6 answer that one? 1 7 A: Well, would you read it back to me 1 8 again? This argument throws me off track. 1 9 MR. RACE: Me, too. That's what it 2 0 is intended to do. 2 1 MS. RUTTER: Speak for yourself, 2 2 Mr. Race. 2 3 MR. RACE: I'm not making any 2 4 objections. I haven't made one objection all 2 5 day long. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015466 ') -- \ AM 38 1 MS. RUTTER: Well, then, speak for 2 yourself. 3 (The requested portion of the record read 4 by the reporter) ' 5 A: Monsanto's communications to ... a/V V 6 representatives of the U.S. Government was to 7 report the fact that efforts were continually 8 under way to determine the presence of furans 9 in Monsanto-produc e^d PCB's. There was no 1 0 attempt made to establish the likelihood or 1 1 lack thereof of this furan material being 1 2 present. It was just reporting the knowledge 1 3 that existed at each point in time. 14 Q: What communications were made to the 1 5 government concerning the toxicity of PCB's? 1 6 A: Is this, again, at the period '70 to 1 7 early '76? 1 8 Q : Yes. 1 9 A: The results of acute toxicity testing 2 0 studies were shared. 21 Q: And what were those results? (4) ' 2 2 A: I don't recall the exact numbers but 2 3 they were described to the representatives in 2 4 the Food and Drug Administration, Department 2 5 of Agriculture, Department of Interior as Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015467 39____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 1 having been conducted and the laboratories 2 that conducted them and the results of the 3 studies and the expression LD50 was offered to 4 them. I have forgotten the exact number. 5 This refers to the dose where half of the ... 6 exposed test animals would die. That's the 7 L D 5 0 dose. And as I remember, they were - 8 because of that LD50 number, they were 9 classified as being toxic or I forget the i 1 0 exact terminology. There were -1 1 Q: They were classified as being toxic 1 2 by wh om ? 1 3 A: By the toxicology community. When 1 4 the L D 5 0 is established by the test, that 1 5 establishes the description of that material 1 6 as being non-toxic or mildly toxic or toxic or 1 7 highly toxic. I believe those are some of the 1 8 expressions that are derived from the numbers 1 9 that are generated by the test. There were 2 0 studies later conducted on PCB's that included 2 1 the so-called subchronic test, which is, as I 2 2 remember, a 90-day exposure at certain levels 2 3 and those were used to tab the concentrations 2 4 of PCB's that were fed to the animals that 2 5 were later exposed to a lifetime study and Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015468 40____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 1 those studies -- the results of those studies 2 were shared with the government. 3 Q: The results of the lifetime studies? 4 A : Yes. 5 Q: And the lifetime studies were . 6 conducted by whom? 7 A: For Monsanto they were conducted by 8 the IBT Laboratories. 9 Q: Okay. And they were commenced in 10 1969? 1 1 A: The lifetime studies, yes. 1 2 Q: And approximately the time that the 1 3 lifetime studies results were made available 1 4 to Monsanto, the Kimbrough studies also became 1 5 available; is that correct? 1 6 A: Dr. Kimbrough's studies, as I 1 7 remember, about 1974 she contacted Monsanto to 1 8 report some of her findings. 1 9 Q: Okay. Did you participate at all 2 0 with the review of Dr. Kimbrough's findings? 2 1 A: I was present at several of the 2 2 discussion sessions that were held. 2 3 Qj Okay. And were you aware that 2 4 various pathologists at IBT had reviewed 2 5 Dr. Kimbrough's slides and concurred with her Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015469 41______________________________________________________________________________________________ _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 1 findings of carcinomas? 2 MS. RUTTER: Just objection for a 3 moment. What area of the designation does 4 this inquiry relate to? 5 MR. RACE: Representations to the 6 government. 7 MS. RUTTER: That's not the way that 8 question is phrased. 9 MR. RACE: Well,then, I want to know %W 1 0 what they found and then what they represented 1 1 to the government. 1 2 MS. RUTTER: This is clearly beyond 1 3 the scope of what this witness is designated 1 4 for. I am going to permit a few more 1 5 questions based on your representation that 1 6 you are going to tie it back in to 1 7 communications made to the government or 1 8 attempt to do so. 19 MR. RACE: Okay.Could you read back 2 0 the last question, please? 2 1 (The requested portion of the record read 2 2 by the reporter) 2 3 A: I don't remember the findings being 2 4 described by the word "carcinomas." I do 2 5 recall the pathologist described their Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015470 42 1 findings as being different from the findings 2 of the IBT studies with the same type of PCB, 3 a different species of rat, and 4 Dr. Kimbrough's work was done only on female 5 rats, whereas the IBT work was both male and 6 female, so I do recall those differences but 7 they concurred with Dr. Kimbrough that the 8 slides indicated an effect on the lives of her 9 test animals as beipg, I think the word was, 1 0 as distinguished from 1 1 carcinogenic. 1 2 Q : Okay. Are you aware that 1 3 communications were made to the government on 1 4 the Kimbrough slides to the effect that 1 5 Dr. Poor was retained and would refute the 1 6 findings of the Kimbrough slides? 1 7 A : Yes, I am. 1 8 Q: Okay. Were you also aware that 1 9 Dr. Richter and Dr. Gordon had reviewed the 2 0 Kimbrough slides and concurred with 2 1 Dr. Kimbrough's findings? 2 2 A : Ye s . Ye s . 2 3 Q: Are you aware that Monsanto paid for 2 4 the presentation of Dr. Poor to the U.S. 2 5 Government, arranged for and paid for the Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015471 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 43______________________________________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ presentation of Dr. Poor to the U.S. Gove rnment ? As I'm confused by the expression "Dr. Poor's presentation to the government." This was a report that he prepared for . Monsanto and it was paid for and it was requested and paid for by Monsanto. Q: Okay. And that report was furnished to the U.S. Government? % A: It was -- yes, copies were shared with the government representatives. Q : Okay. MS. RUTTER: Just, so the record is clear, approximately what year was this? A: This was in November '75, early November. MS . RUTTER : 1 9 7 5 ? A : Yes. Q: And are you also aware that Monsanto did not request written reports of Dr. Richter or Dr. Gordon? A: No. The head of their laboratory. Dr. Calandra, made a personal report to the same representatives of government. Q: And Dr. Calandra's report Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015472 44____________________________________________________________________________________________ ._______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 1 substantiated Dr. Kimbrough's findings? 2 As Well, and it also substantiated the 3 IBT findings. Both findings were reported and 4 the difference was brought out to the 5 audiences that were assembled. ' 6 Q: Were any representations made to the 7 government as to the health effects of PCB 8 workers? 9 MS. RUTTER: I object to the use of 1 0 the word "representations," Counsel. I 1 1 thought you represented that you were going to 1 2 stop using the word "represented" and use the 1 3 word "communications." 1 4 MR. RACE: Okay. Communications. 1 5 Communicate. 1 6 A: Yes, they were. 1 7 Q: Okay. What were those 18 1 9 MS. RUTTER: Objection to the use of 2 0 the word "representations." Are you going to 2 1 substitute the word "communications"? 2 2 MR. RACE: No, I will just let your 2 3 objection be there. Because I'm going to 2 4 forget, you are going to object and I think we 2 5 ought to make it a continuous objection to Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015473 45 1 "representations." Do you want to make it a 2 continuous objection? I will agree that any 3 time I use "representation," you have an 4 objection to that term. 5 MS. RUTTER: No, I think it is an ... 6 unfair and misleading term. You previously 7 said that you were going to start using a less 8 biased term and use the word "communications" 9 and then you f ailed( to do that. w 1 0 MR. RACE: Off the record. 1 1 (Discussion off the record) ] 1 2 Q: What communications were made to the 1 3 U.S. Government concerning the health effects 1 4 of workers related to PCB's? 1 5 A: Yes, in the period we are talking |\J\ \ 1 6 about, '70 to '76, there were discussions in 1 7 which Monsanto shared with representatives of 1 8 the federal government, and state governments, 1 9 where appropriate, the experience regarding 2 0 worker health and involvement with PCB's which 2 1 was one of no disturbing reports received by 2 2 Monsanto except for a few instances that the 2 3 medical director of Monsanto was able to 2 4 associate with just a total mishandling of the 2 5 material, but under the usual practices in Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 \ WATER PCB-SD0000015474 46 1 industry there were no problems. 2 Q: You got the same ions made 3 between the years 1965 and 1970? 4 A: '65 and '70, it is my understanding, 5 yes. 6 MS. RUTTER: I object to the use of 7 the word. 8 MR. RACE: Communications. 9 Communications.. Okay. 1 0 Q: And you, in fact, personally made 1 1 such communications both to government and 1 2 anyone -- anybody else that inquired as to the 1 3 health effects of PCB's; is that correct? 1 4 MS. RUTTER: Between 1970 through 15 1976? 1 6 MR. RACE: No, '65 through '70. 1 7 A No, '65 to '70, I didn't make them. 1 8 Q Okay . From '70 - 1 9 A Monsanto did, yes. A 2 0 Q: Okay. Did you ever make any 2 1 communications to the effect that -- "make aiiy 2 2 communications," now, that sounds terrible. 2 3 Did you ever make any representations that 2 4 PCB's have been manufactured for 40 years and 2 5 there have been no adverse human effect? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015475 47_____________________________________________________________________________________________ .______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 1 MS. RUTTER: Objection to the form of 2 the question, contains the objectionable word 3 "representations." 4 MR. RACE: Okay. Subject to the 5 objection, could you go ahead and answer that? 6 A: I don't recall the specific incident 7 but it is possible that I made that 8 represent -- that communication, yes. 9 Q: And if you made such communication, 1 0 that would be a misrepresentation, would it 1 1 not? 1 2 A: It is a matter of degree, yes. There 1 3 might have been three cases that I foundout 1 4 later from Dr. Kelly that may have occurred 1 5 compared to the literally millions of man 1 6 hours. Again, it is a matter of degree, yes. 1 7 Q: Did you make any -- and in hindsight 1 8 you can say that thatwould have been a small 1 9 misrepresentation? 2 0 MS. RUTTER: Well, objection to the 2 1 form of the question. He said he later found 2 2 out facts. 2 3 Q: Aren't you in the process of -2 4 strikethat. 2 5 Did Monsanto not have a policy when Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015476 48 to the government and to the public at large concerning the health effects of PCB to check with the medical department before making such pronouncements? - MS. RUTTER: I object to the use of the word " ions." A: Definitely. I made a check with the medical department and it was my understanding of Monsanto's experience. My discussions with the medical department were centered around the typical industrial use of these materials, not the obvious mishandling and abuse of the material . Q: So there were occasions in which adverse effects from the use of PCB were made known to you; is that correct? A: Eventually, yes. Q: Okay. And it is your understanding that those adverse effects were the result of clear abuse? A: Yes, if we both have the same definition of "abuse." I'm not talking now about someone drinking the stuff, anything of that kind, but just what I would refer to Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015477 1 calling a mishandling, not following good 2 practices. 7 3 Q: Okay. What were the circumstances of 4 those two, three or four instances which you 5 ultimately became aware of? - 6 A: I just don't remember the details 7 anymore. I would have to consult with 8 Dr. Kelly to refresh my memory. I don't 9 remember. . n\ ** 1 0 Q: But you remember they constituted a \ 1 1 clear abuse. 1 2 A: That's my understanding, yes, sir. 1 3 Q: Okay. What in your mind constitutes <T0 1 4 a clear abuse in the handling of PCB's? \) u1 1 5 A: I could sit here and conjure up a lot 1 6 of situations that would fall into that 1 7 category. 1 8 MS. RUTTER: Counsel, what area does 1 9 this relate to on your corporate designation? 2 0 MR. RACE: I'm getting to it. 2 1 MS. RUTTER: Well, since you are not 2 2 on any recognizable area of designation right 2 3 now - - 2 4 MR.' RACE : lam. 2 5 MS. RUTTER: No. Which one is it? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015478 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 50________________________________________________________________________________________________.____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ MR. RACE: Warnings and advices made to Westinghouse regarding safe handling, adverse effects related and related -- oh, that's Kelly -- inspections, safety procedures, we are talking about what his. appreciation of what safety procedures are instituted. I want to find out what he says is good safety. He is the one that started it. He started.it. MS. RUTTER: > You . are the one who chose to go in this particular format. You had an opportunity to depose this witness in his personal capacity. Don't talk over me. Let me finish, then you may take your turn. MR. RACE: I don't want to talk over you . MS. RUTTER: You had your opportunity with this witness in his personal capacity for an entire day. MR. RACE: Good. And that deposition isn't finished. MS. RUTTER: Well, you didn't state that at that time. You, in fact, closed up the books early and said, "Gee, here it is 3:00. I don't have anything else to ask this Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015479 51________________________________________________ ;_____________________ ________________________________________________________________________________________ 1 witness . I'm going to switch over and do 2 corporate." Look at your transcript. 3 MR. RACE: I did look at the 4 transcript and it says it is open. 5 MS. RUTTER: That's not what the 6 transcript says. 7 MR . RACE : That'S - 8 MS. RUTTER: He is not hereright now 9 in a personal deposition. 1 0 MR. RACE: I'm asking questions 1 1 concerning the safe handling of PCB's and the 1 2 witness here specifically testified that PCB's 1 3 were not -- there are instances in which PCB's 1 4 were not handled correctly. I'm going into 1 5 what those instances are and I want - 1 6 MS. RUTTER: He has already told you 1 7 that you need to ask Dr. Kelly those 1 8 instances. Dr. Kelly has been here for two 1 9 days. 2 0 MR. RACE: I have spoken to 2 1 Dr. Kelly. I want his impression, too. 2 2 MS. RUTTER: He has already told you 2 3 he knew at one time what Dr. Kelly told him. 2 4 MR. RACE: I know what you said he 2 5 said but I want to know what he says. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015480 52 1 MS. RUTTER: Counsel, let's get back 2 to my initial question. What topic on which 3 Mr. Papageorge is designated does your current 4 line of inquiry relate to? 5 MR. RACE: Right now -- _ 6 MR. WUNDERLICH: Off the record. 7 (Discussion off the record) 8 (Recess) --T 9 Q: Okay. You conducted an inspection or 1 0 a visit to the Westinghouse facility? \M\ 1 1 MS. RUTTER: Objection to the use of 1 2 the word "inspection." 1 3 Q: Subject to the objection - 1 4 A : Which one ? 1 5 Q: Bloomington. 1 6 A: Bloomington, yes. 1 7 Q: Okay. Was it Monsanto's policy to J 1 8 inspect the facilities of customers utilizing 1 9 PCB' s ? 2 0 MS. RUTTER: Object to the use of the 2 1 word "inspect." 2 2 A: It was not Monsanto policy. V'* \ 2 3 Q: No. Did Monsanto reserve any rights 2 4 to terminate selling PCB's to any customer who 2 5 did not properly utilize PCB's? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015481 53 1 MS. RUTTER: During what time period, 2 Couns el? 3 Q: 1965 to '70? At any time? 4 A: Monsanto always had that right as 5 long as they felt that the guidance that was 6 being offered was totally ignored. 7 Q: Okay. So Monsanto did offer some 8 guidance? 9 A: Certainly. 4W 1 0 Q : And in forms of warnings and safe 1 1 handling procedures? 1 2 A : Yes. 1 3 Q : Okay. And those warnings and labels 1 4 were drafted by Dr. Kelly? 1 5 A: Or his department. 1 6 Q: Or his department? 1 7 A : Yes. 1 8 Q: Now, did Monsanto have any mechanisms 1 9 to ensure that those safe practices were 2 0 abided by by customers? 2 1 A: We had some mechanisms. We certainly 2 2 were not in the regulatory business or 2 3 inspection business but we had contacts 2 4 between the medical departments of the 2 5 customer and Monsanto's medical department. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015482 54 1 We had contacts with our marketing people that 2 would go to the plants. There were many lines 3 of communication between the customer and 4 Monsanto and if any problems should arise, 5 eventually Monsanto would hear about them and 6 take the appropriate actions to make sure that 7 they understood the proper way to handle the 8 material and so on. 9 Q: Okay. Did you have knowledge to 1 0 assess as to whether PCB's were properly 1 1 handled? 1 2 A: Did I have? 1 3 MS. RUTTER: Under what 1 4 circumstances, Counsel? Object to the vague 1 5 and overbroad form of the question. 1 6 Q: Subject to the objection - 1 7 A: Well, I had some knowledge regarding 1 8 the use of, say, as an example, what were the 1 9 proper kind of gloves, so on. 2 0 Q: Okay. From whom did you obtain your 2 1 guidance on the proper handling of PCB's? 2 2 A: Monsanto's medical department was the 2 3 key source .____________________________________________________ 2 4 Q: Okay. So if Dr. Kelly had guidance 2 5 as to avoid prolonged dermal contact, that Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015483 55 1 would be something you would have looked for 2 if you went in visiting a facility? 3 MS. RUTTER: Objection to the vague 4 and confusing form of the. question. Are you 5 talking about visiting a Monsanto facility? 6 MR. RACE: Visiting a customer's 7 facility. 8 A: Well, certainly with that knowledge, 9 if I saw something obviously improper about, 1 0 say, a person's handling, I would -1 1 Q: Let's go through what your 1 2 appreciation is of the safe handling of \ 1 3 PCB *1 s . 1 4 MS. RUTTER: Counsel, I think you cut 1 5 him off in mid-sentence there. 1 6 A: I don't know what you mean by my 1 7 "appreciation." As a supervisor of a PCB 1 8 facility, I had an appreciation for it. 1 9 Q: Had you seen the warnings and labels 2 0 prepared by Dr. Kelly? 2 1 A Had I ever seen them? 2 2 Q Yes. 2 3 A Certainly. 2 4 Q Do you recall those warnings? 2 5 A I believe I do, yes. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015484 1 Q: Okay. What are the contents of those 2 warnings to the best of your recollection? ft 3 A: They refer to the need to keep the 4 material from coming into contact with skin. 5 Q : Okay. So there should be no skin 6 contact? 7 A: No skin contact -- I shouldn't say no 8 skin -- it should be avoided. That doesn't 9 mean if a little gets on the skin you panic, 1 0 but it is not wise to continually expose the 1 1 skin to the material and to wear the proper 1 2 protection. The other had to do with avoiding 1 3 the inhalation of vapors of PCB's. And the 1 4 third, of course, was ingestion, don't eat it, 1 5 wash your hands before you touch food, smoke, 1 6 so on. 1 7 Q: Okay. Now, when you toured any 1 8 facility, customer facility, did you see 1 9 violations of those guidelines as established 2 0 by Dr. Kelly? . |\ 21 A: I did not see any personally, no. \\] ^ 2 2 Q: Okay. If you had seen any, what was 2 3 Monsanto's policy with respect to its reaction 2 4 for violation of guidelines? 2 5 A: If I had seen it? You are asking me Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015485 57____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 1 to kind of speculate what I would have done. 2 Q: Did Monsanto have a policy as to what 3 should be done if you became aware that a 4 customer was not abiding by the guidelines as 5 drafted by Dr. Kelly? . 6 MS. RUTTER: Counsel, what topic? 7 What topic on your corporate designation? 8 MR. RACE: Warnings and advices 9 transmitted to Westinghouse by Monsanto, 1 0 what's the reaction to that; Monsanto 1 1 inspection of Westinghouse ' s Bloomington 1 2 facility. 1 3 MS. RUTTER: Well, Monsanto didn't 1 4 inspect the Westinghouse Bloomington facility. 1 5 MR. RACE: And notwithstanding your 1 6 objection, I noted that, and this witness is 1 7 designated in that area. I believe these 1 8 questions fall within one or two of those 19 2 0 MS. RUTTER: What someone saw when 2 1 they visited a facility is totally unrelated 2 2 to a policy Monsanto might have. 2 3 MR. RACE: What did he see and what 2 4 did he do when he saw it. 2 5 MS. RUTTER: That's not in your Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015486 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 58____________________________________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ designation. MR. RACE: Counsel, in all fairness, we have gone through this before. I have tried to draft this to speak about areas of inspections or tours of customer facilities and what is done with those tours. Now, we have attempted -- we have gone around on this. I have taken Mr. Papageorge's deposition and had stopped the deposition at > that time reserving right to continue the deposition of Mr. Papageorge personally in order to draft something that was acceptable to you. Now, I think it was quite clear that my intent was to ask about inspections of facilities. I don't think anyone would anticipate -- any attorney would anticipate that I would ask about facilities and inspection and not ask about what was done with the information that was gathered from the inspection, notwithstanding the fact that you are going to object to the word "inspection." Now, that is my spirit. If you will allow me to go forward with this, I can get this deposition through quickly. If we can't continue, I will have to go back and get Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015487 59____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 1 as much as I can and then reopen his personal 2 deposition. I would prefer not to do that. I 3 would like to work in the parameters of what's 4 here. I think this witness is capable of 5 talking to that and if he can't address it., he 6 can tell me he doesn't know. 7 MS. RUTTER: I think you are straying 8 away from these corporate designations. I am 9 going to permit.him to answer the question on w 1 0 the floor. 1 1 I'm going to permit you to answer the 1 2 last question that was asked and after that I 1 3 am just going to consider it on a question by 1 4 question basis. 1 5 Counsel, what your designation says 1 6 is, "Monsanto's inspection," and we will 1 7 substitute for that "visit/visits," "to the 1 8 Westinghouse Bloomington facility." 1 9 MR. RACE: Okay. Could you read back 2 0 the last question, please? 2 1 (The requested portion of the record read 2 2 by the reporter) 2 3 MS. RUTTER: Objection, calls for 2 4 speculation and conjunction and does not fit 2 5 within the designation. The witness has Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015488 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 60____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ testified that he didn't view any unsafe handling practices at Westinghouse Bloomington. That question that was just read back does not relate to Westinghouse Bloomington and it is a hypothetical that .you are givingto him about a situation that doesn't exist. MR. RACE: It is not a hypothetical. Is it a policy. Stating a policy is not a hypo thetical. MS. RUTTER: It is a general question that was not one designated on the corporate designation. MR. RACE: Counsel, fine, then I can say that if you are going to let me ask him. If you are not going to let me ask him the fundamental questions, then it is back to the personal deposition, you know, and I will have tocome back in, fly in and we will continue there. MS . RUTTER : Okay. MR. RACE: So are you instructing the witness not to answer that? MS. RUTTER: It is beyond the scope of the designation. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015489 61 1 MR. RACE: And you are instructing 2 the witness not to answer? 3 MS. RUTTER: I'm trying - 4 MR. RACE: I'm trying to work with 5 you, I really am. ' 6 MS. RUTTER: I'm trying to work with 7 you . 8 MR. RACE: And I really need to know 9 this. This is the stuff I can get -- I am 1 0 going to get it through his personal 1 1 deposition or through his corporate 1 2 deposition. That's why we drafted it in this 1 3 manner. We are almost finished. 1 4 MS. RUTTER: Here's what I am going 1 5 to do. Why don't you finish up your corporate 1 6 deposition so we are not jumping in and out of 1 7 topics and then say, "Okay. I'm through with 1 8 the corporate topics," and then ask him that 1 9 question. 2 0 MR. RACE: Then let me see what 2 1 questions we can do like that, okay? Then we 2 2 can launch into a personal deposition. Okay. 2 3 Q: What was the chemical composition of 2 4 Inerteen? 2 5 MS. RUTTER: Objection to the Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015490 62 1 overbroad and vague form of the question. 2 A: I'm recalling several Inerteen 3 dielectric fluid mixtures made for 4 Westinghouse and the compositions of these 5 were different for the different . 6 designations. I, at the moment, don't recall 7 the specifics of many of them. 8 Q: How is Inerteen different from PCB's? /K 9 MS. RUTTER: Objection to the 1 0 overbroad and vague form of the question. 11 A: Inerteen is a Westinghouse trademark . ) 1 2 which Westinghouse used to describe liquid P - 1 3 mixtures used in electrical equipment. The 1 4 composition of these electrical fluids varied 1 5 for each of the several Inerteens. 1 6 Q: Okay. Were the Inerteens 1 7 manufactured by Monsanto and shipped to 1 8 Westinghouse or was the basic PCB shipped to 1 9 Westinghouse and then Westinghouse may put 2 0 additives in the basic PCB compound? 2 1 A : Both. 2 2 Q : Okay. What was it.that was shipped 2 3 to Westinghouse, your appreciation? 2 4 A: At what point in time? 2 5 Q : '65 to '70. Gore <6 Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015491 63______________________________________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 1 A: '65 to '70? 2 Q : Yes. 3 A: Can you help me with which location? 4 Q: Bloomington. 5 A: Bloomington. The' material used in 6 the manufacture of electrical capacitors at 7 Bloomington was Monsanto's PCB mixture 8 referred to as Aroclor 1242 and it was 9 shipped, as I recall, at that period of time > 1 0 in bulk quantities, tank car quantities. 1 1 Q: Okay. Now, when it was shipped in 1 2 tank car quantities and arrived at 1 3 Westinghouse ' s facility, you said there were 1 4 things that were added to it sometimes? 1 5 MS. RUTTER: Objection to the form of 1 6 the question. That mischaracterizes prior 1 7 testimony. ^ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------1 8 Q: Was there on occasion something added 1 9 to the 1242? 2 0 A: I found out many, many years later 2 1 that the Bloomington facility in preparing 2 2 that PCB mixture for use in their equipment 2 3 added something to it. 2 4 Q: Do you know what that something is? 2 5 A: I never found -- to this day I don't Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015492 64 1 know what it is. 2 Q i Do you know whether that something ^ 3 was added to all the PCB coming in or just a XfiNy 4 portion of it for a selected process? 5 A: I have no idea. 6 Q: You don't know what was added and you 7 don't know how much of it was added? 8 A: And how often. 9 Q: And how often it was added? 1 0 A: Correct. 1 1 Q: Okay. Not only was there 1242 but 1 2 there was also 1 2 6 8 and 12 54 that was shipped 1 3 to the Westinghouse facility? 1 4 MS. RUTTER: At what point? 1 5 MR. RACE: At Bloomington during '65 1 6 to '70; isn't that correct? 1 7 A : That is 1 8 Q: Okay. Now, there was also a 1 9 transformer Inerteen PPO shipped to the 2 0 Bloomington facility; is that correct? 2 1 A: That is correct. 2 2 Q: Now, the Inerteen PPO was 2 3 manufactured at Monsanto; is that correct? 2 4 A: That is correct. 2 5 Q: And that Inerteen PPO consisted of Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015493 65 1 PCB with a trichlorinated benzene additive; is 2 3 A ; Yes. 4 Q: Okay. So Monsanto knew that -- 5 strikethat. ' - 6 7 added to the PCB? 8 A : Let me t ry t o a misimpression 9 I made. You referred to trichlorobenzene. It 1 0 could well have been a mixture of tri- and 1 1 tetrach1orobenzene along with PCB1s. Why was 1 2 it added? Monsanto added it because 1 3 Westinghouse called for that type of mixture. 1 4 Q : Okay. 1 5 A: You will have to ask the Westinghouse 1 6 people why the need for it. 1 7 Q: Okay. Now, that mixture of PPO was 1 8 first shipped to Westinghouse in 1969; is that 1 9 correct? 2 0 A: We are still talking about the 2 1 Bloomington site. 2 2 Q : Yes. 2 3 A: As best I recall, that was shipped 2 4 and, yes, in small amount, yes. 2 5 Q: Okay. Was either tri- or Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015494 66 1 tetrach1orinated benzene added to PCB by 2 Monsanto before 1969? 3 A : Yes. 4 Q: Okay. So Monsanto knew that under 5 certain applications, trich1orinated benzene 6 would be added to its PCB1s? 7 A: Certainly. --sn 8 Qs Okay. And Monsanto -- you also knew kK , 1 \9 that trich1orinated% benzene under the certain V 1 0 conditions will create dioxins? 1 1 A: At what point in time? When did 1 2 Monsanto know this? 1 3 Q: I don't know. Did Monsanto know 1 4 this? 1 5 A: Eventually Monsanto was informed of 1 6 studies that demonstrated that this could 1 7 happen under certain conditions, yes. 1 8 Q: And when did Monsanto become so 1 9 aware? 2 0 A: Late 70's. 1 2 1 Q: Okay. So Monsanto knew as early as 2 2 the 1 9 5 0 ' s that the addition of 2 3 trich1orobenzene to chlorinated napthalenes 2 4 caused chloracne and other related problems; 2 5 isn't that correct? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015495 67____________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________ 1 MS. RUTTER: Could you - 2 MR. RACE: I will wait until the 3 personal deposition, if you wish. 4 Q: Did Monsanto ever know about the - 5 s t rik e that. - 6 Did tests ever reveal presence of a 7 dioxin contaminant in PCB's? 8 A : Never. 9 Q: Okay. I.t is true, however, after 1 0 fires, the one in New York, PCB was found in 1 1 the rubble of the fire, as well as furans and 1 2 dioxins; is that not true? 1 3 A: My understanding is that samples of 1 4 the soot and so on did contain furans - 1 5 chlorinated furans and chlorinated dioxins. 1 6 Q: Do you have any idea how the 1 7 chlorinated dioxins became present at that 1 8 site after the fire? 1 9 MS. RUTTER: Counsel, I think this is 2 0 beyond 1976. I just want to establish that it 2 1 is, so that the record is clear. 2 2 A: Do I have any idea? I can only go by 2 3 the allegations that we saw in print. 2 4 Q: Okay. Did Monsanto conduct any 2 5 investigation to find out how the chlorinated Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015496 68 1 dioxins got there? 2 MS. RUTTER: What year is this in, 3 Mr. Papageorge? 4 A: I'm tempted to say '80, '81. 5 MR. RACE: Personal deposition? .. 6 MS. RUTTER: I would recommend that, 7 yes. 8 Q: Did you conduct any inspections of 9 the IBT facility? v 1 0 MS. RUTTER: Objection to the use of iv \ 1 1 the word "inspection." 1 2 A: I visited the laboratory. I don't 1 3 know that I was in any position to inspect II 1 4 that type of facility. I did make 1^ 1 5 observations . 1 6 Q: Okay. And it is your opinion that it 1 7 was a class A facility? 1 8 A: Definitely, yes. 1 9 Q: Okay. Did you at all make any visits ^ 2 0 to the area called the "swamp"? ^ 2 1 A: I never heard of that. I read about 2 2 it in the local newspaper. I never saw 2 3 anything like that. 2 4 Q: Did you visit where the animals were 2 5 stored? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015497 69____________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________ 1 MS. RUTTER: Excuse me, Mr. Race, you 2 just talked over the answer. Did you get the 3 end of his answer? All right. 4 Q: Did you visit where the animals were 5 stored, kept and fed? .. 6 A: Yes, I went into the chambers where 7 they were in cages and so on, yes. 8 Q: And did you see anything that 9 appeared to have been less than a class A > 1 0 operation? 1 1 A: I did not. 1 2 Q: Have you visited any other test 1 3 facilities - 1 4 A: Of that type? 1 5 Q : Ye s . 1 6 A : No . 1 7 Q: So you were not in a position to 1 8 inspect an IBT facility because you did not 1 9 have sufficient knowledge to do so; is that a 2 0 fair statement? 2 1 A: Not totally. I think I have seen 2 2 enough of, as examples, chemistry, analytical 2 3 laboratories and their analytical section was 2 4 up to top notch. 2 5 Q : Okay. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015498 70 1 A: Modern equipment and all. 2 Q: When you went to the facility, the 3 IBT facility, did you do so with the thought 4 of inspecting the facility in order to 5 determine whether or not it was conducting 6 proper tests? 7 A : I, personally? 8 Q : Yes. 9 A : No . . ? 1 0 Q : Did anyone from Monsanto? 1 1 A : Yes. 1 2 Q : Who was sent there to, in 1 3 inspect the facility to ensure that the tests 1 4 were carried out properly? 1 5 A: At what point in time, again? 1 6 Q : At any time . 1 7 A: Well, several individuals from 1 8 Monsanto's medical department made visits. 1 9 Q: The medical department was, in fact, 2 0 in charge of ensuring that the IBT facility 2 1 was maintaining proper procedures? 2 2 MS. RUTTER: Objection to the form of 2 3 the question in that it mischaracterizes prior 2 4 testimony and is misleading. You may answer 2 5 subject to the objection. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015499 .71 1 A: The medical department was 2 responsible for representing Monsanto and the 3 placing of the studies, the conduction of the 4 studies, the receipt of the information from 5 the studies, so they were the group in 6 Monsanto that interfaced with this service. 7 Q: And so it is your appreciation that 8 if the service was operating at less than 9 acceptable levels, it was the responsibility 1 0 of the medical department to discover and 1 1 correct any deficiencies? 1 2 As I relied on them to make certain that 1 3 the results were good results that we could 1 4 make some decisions on. 1 5 Q: And who from the medical department 1 6 to your knowledge inspected the IBT facility? 1 7 MS. RUTTER: Objection to the use of 1 8 the term "inspected." 1 9 A: I cannot speak for the role that the 2 0 medical department representative played but I 2 1 do know that a Dr. Hunt made frequent visits. 2 2 Later it was a Dr. Levinskas and Mr. Wheeler. 2 3 Those three individuals were the active ones 2 4 on the PCB studies. 2 5 Q: Have you ever seen any report Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015500 72 1 indicating that the IBT facility was 2 conducting questionable operations? 3 A: I saw newspaper articles about 4 allegations regarding their performance. I 5 did not see anything relating to PCB studies. 6 MS. RUTTER: At what point in time 7 did you see those newspaper articles, 8 Mr. Papageorge? 9 A: Oh, this was in the 1980's, again. 1 0 Q: So you received no information during 1 1 1970 through '76 questioning the operations of 1 2 the IBT facility? 1 3 A: That is correct. / 1 4 Q: What was your involvementwith the 1 5 development of alternatives to PCB's? 1 6 A: I was in a position where I attempted 1 7 to stay abreast of all the researchactivity 1 8 and the development of these materials. I 1 9 was -- I felt my primary role was one of 2 0 encouraging that the effort be stepped up, if 2 1 you will, to speed it up,, if possible, and 2 2 that the right resources were available to do 2 3 this and that's the role that I played. 2 4 Q: Okay. What were the alternatives 2 5 that were actually ultimately developed? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015501  1 As For which? For what? 73 / \lM \ 2 QsForPCB. \ 3 MS. RUTTER: For what application? 4 Well - - 5 A: Yes, for what uses? - 6 Q: For capacitors and transformers. 7 A: Monsanto did not succeed in 8 developing any acceptable alternative. 9 Q: Did anyone else in the industry , 1 0 develop an acceptable alternative? 1 1 A: Well, obviously, they have an 1 2 alternative material. I don't know the source 1 3 of that material. 1 4 Q: Okay. Is silicone oil considered a 1 5 viable alternative? 1 6 A: For capacitors? 1 7 Q : Yes. 1 8 A: That's not my understanding for 1 9 capacitors, no. 2 0 Q: Is it not true that silicone oil is 2 1 now used in capacitors? 2 2 A: I don't know that. I know it is used 2 3 in transformers. I have not heard it used in 2 4 capacitors. 2 5 Q: Does silicone oil have the fire Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015502  74 1 retardant characteristics of PCB's? 2 As It is my understanding that it is 3 acceptable when that is good and the units 4 that are made are of a bigger size to do the 5 same job. That's my understanding. - 6 Q: Is it also your understanding that 7 the dielectric properties of silicone oil were 8 known in the chemical field in as early as 9 1955? . r 1 0 As I do not know that. 1 1 Qs Do you know of any technological 1 2 advancement occurring between 1955 and the 1 3 time at which silicone oil was actually 1 4 used -- that enabled silicone oil to be used? 1 5 As I know nothing about the silicon 1 6 business so I can't respond. ____________ 1 7 Qs Now, when looking at alternatives, 1 8 you testified that Monsanto was not able to 1 9 develop an alternative to PCB's. 2 0 As Did not succeed, correct. 2 1 Qs Okay. Was there any dielectric fluid 2 2 that Monsanto developed? 2 3 As They had several candidates that were 2 4 being evaluated. Samples were sent to the 2 5 customers to try out and see if it worked on Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015503  r~ 1 their equipment. I remember that. But in 2 every case, the customers were not satisfied. 3 Q: Did Dr. Munch not develop and patent/ 'f0 4 an alternative to PCB's? /0(o 5 A: Yes, he did. . 6 Q: And what was that alternative? 7 A: I don't recall anymore. 8 Qs And in what year was that patent made 9 and applied for? 1 0 A: I don't recall. 1 1 Q: Was it not 1972? 1 2 A: In the early seventies, yes, sir. 1 3 Q: Okay. After the Yusho incident, 1 4 Monsanto accelerated the research on 1 5 developments of alternatives to PCB's? 1 6 A: It was certainly after the Yusho 1 7 incident but not related. Timewise it 1 8 happened after. Yes, it was in the 70 1 s as 1 9 compared to the Yusho incident of '68. 2 0 Q: After it became apparent that PCB's 2 1 were non-biodegradab1e , as was discovered by 2 2 the Swedes, Monsanto accelerated development 2 3 of alternatives? 2 4 As That is correct. 2 5 Q: Okay. And shortly after that Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015504 76___________________________________________________________________ .________________________________________________________________________________ 1 acceleration, Dr. Munch, in fact, came up with 2 a patent for an alternative to PCB's? 3 A: For certain applications, yes. 4 Q: One of the characteristics of PCB's 5 is that it is fire retardant; isn't that . 6 7 A: That is correct. 8 Q: But, nevertheless, there are still 9 fires and explosionsto that occurred with PCB 1 0 transformers; is that correct? 1 1 A : Yes . 1 2 Q : Okay. 1 3 MS. RUTTER: Was that before 1976? 1 4 Q: Before and after. 1 5 A: No. No. I don't recall any fire and 1 6 explosion in the period '70 to '76, no. 1 7 MS. RUTTER: And, Counsel, I'm trying 1 8 to give you some leeway here on time periods ; 1 9 I'm just also trying to make sure the record 2 0 is clear. 2 1 MR. RACE: Let me get this down for 2 2 the personal deposition. 2 3 Q: Is it not true that the fire 2 4 retardant characteristic of PCB's was not as 2 5 important in capacitors as it was in Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015505 77____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 1 transformers or would this be something you 2 would have to ask Westinghouse? 3 A: I was going to say, to me, fire - 4 well, first, rather than fire retardancy, I 5 would suggest that the characteristic of PCB's 6 is best described by fire resistant. It does 7 not support a fire. There are conditions at 8 which it will burn if you reach these 9 conditions but those conditions are not 1 0 available in normal electrical use. 1 1 Q: Well, they do, in fact, occur as 1 2 evidenced by virtue of the fact that fires 1 3 have occurred with PCB transformers. 1 4 A: Yes, but those fires could be and 1 5 probably are due to other materials present, 1 6 chlorobenzenes, the additives, the wiring, the 1 7 insulation on the wiring. There is more to it 1 8 than just the PCB contents. 1 9 Q: Right. So, in other words, if the 2 0 manufacturer of electrical components puts 2 1 chlorinated benzene in PCB's, then apparently 2 2 that was not a -- the fire resistant 2 3 characteristic was willing to be sacrificed; 2 4 is that not true? 2 5 MS. RUTTER: Objection, calls for Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015506 78 1 speculation and conjecture and 2 mischaracterizes prior testimony. 3 Q: Can you testify one way or the other 4 about that? 5 A: You would have to ask the 6 Westinghouses and General Electrics of this 7 world . 8 Q: Doctor, are you available to testify, 9 shall we say, until 5:00? 1 0 A : Yes. 1 1 Q: Okay. What were the warnings and 1 1 2 advices transmitted to Westinghouse by '\ 1 3 Monsanto between 1965 and 1970 regarding the 1 4 safe handling of PCB's? 1 5 A: Avoid prolonged skin exposure, avoid 1 6 excessive breathing of fumes. 1 7 Q: These are the areas you told us about 1 8 before, the three? 1 9 A: I think I touched on some of those, 2 0 yes. 2 1 Q: Okay. What was the actual 2 2 documentation that was forwarded to 2 3 Westinghouse? 2 4 A: Well, it took several forms. There 2 5 were what I am going to describe as product ^ Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015507 1 bulletins or product brochures, which contain 2 sections on safe handling or some such title. 3 Q: Were these brochures that were 4 prepared by Dr. Kelly in the medical 5 department? _ 6 A: The section on safe handling was 7 prepared by Dr. Kelly's department. The rest 8 of the brochure was prepared by many other 9 people. . i 1 0 Q: Okay. And the rest of the brochure 1 1 would be more of a technical, as opposed to a 1 2 safety -- address safety aspects? 1 3 A: There would be some research work in 1 4 there, some application work, where to use it, 1 5 how it behaves and some on some of its 1 6 physical and chemical properties, these kind 1 7 of things, and then there would be a section 1 8 in there on safe handling or toxicity or maybe 1 9 both of those words appeared in the title on 2 0 that section. 2 1 Q: What was your involvement with the 2 2 transmitting of warnings and advices to the 2 3 Westinghouse facility? 2 4 A: My personal involvement? 2 5 Q : Yes. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015508  80 A 1 A: Of course, there is the / j 2 person-to-person discussion that I held with 3 several Westinghouse people. When I got 4 involved in 1970, of course, Westinghouse had 5 worked with this material for decades and -had 6 received the brochures that had been published 7 up to that time. 8 Q: Are you aware of any brochure ^) 9 publication or other advices advising 1 0 Westinghouse of actions to be taken in the 1 1 event that there was prolonged skin contact or 1 2 if there was excessive inhalation of PCB's? 1 3 A: Can you help me with the "actions"? 1 4 Does this pertain to treating the skin, for 1 5 example, or to reduce the exposure? Is that 1 6 the action? 1 7 Q: No, treating it after the event 1 8 occurs . 1 9 A: Treating -- that's a medical 2 0 situation that I -- I'm not familiar with 2 1 that. 2 2 Q: Okay. So if Dr. Kelly testified that 2 3 there were no advices regarding what should 2 4 Westinghouse do in the event that they did not 2 5 abide by the Monsanto advices, you would defer Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015509 81 1 to Dr. Kelly in that regard, would you not? 2 MS. RUTTER: Objection, 3 mischaracterizes Dr. Kelly's testimony. 4 Q: Subject to the objection - 5 A: Well, if it involved what ointments 6 to use on that skin to help it heal, that 7 would be a medical question that would go to 8 Dr. Kelly. 9 Q: But the question is a little broader 1 0 than that. What action is to be taken in the 1 1 event that a worker was exposed beyond a level 1 2 contemplated by Monsanto? 1 3 A: We would certainly review with the 1 4 supervisors of that operation the need for, 1 5 let's say, gloves. 1 6 Q: I'm not talking about prevention, I'm 1 7 talking about reaction after the contact has 1 8 been established. 1 9 A: I'm confused by your question. I 2 0 don't know how to answer. I don'tunderstand 2 1 the question. 2 2 Q: Okay. You would defer to Dr. Kelly 2 3 with respect to what was transmitted to 2 4 Westinghouse concerning actions to be taken 2 5 after a worker was exposed to a level of PCB Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015510 82 1 above that contemplated by Monsanto? 2 A: For the treatment of the symptoms as 3 a result of this activity. 4 Q: You would defer to Dr. Kelly? 5 A: Dr.Kelly,yes. 6 Q : As to what was transmitted to 7 Westinghouse? - 8 A : Yes. 9 Q: And to the best of your knowledge, 1 0 the three areas of advices transmitted to 1 1 Westinghouse by Monsanto with regard to the 1 2 safe handling of PCB's was to avoid repeated 1 3 dermal contact, avoid inhalation of PCB vapors 1 4 and avoid ingestion; is that correct? 1 5 MS. RUTTER: Objection, overbroad, 1 6 vague, mischaracterizes prior testimony. 1 7 A: Yes, each of those exposures, of 1 8 course, were described by words that help 1 9 determine the degree of exposure, like the 2 0 word prolonged -- I don't have it in front of 2 1 me now -- prolonged breathing, excessive skin 2 2 contact, words of that type. Those may not be 2 3 the exact words but -- i 2 4 Q: What does "prolonged dermal contact"^ 2 5 mean? And it is the word "prolonged" that I Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015511 83___________________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________________________ 1 wish for you to define. 2 As This tries to establish that the 3 instantaneous once-in-a-great-while limited 4 skin contact should pose no problems. On the 5 other hand, there are situations where .. 6 eventually that skin starts showing a redness 7 as an example of an excess amount and that 8 will vary, too, from person-to-person, from 9 PCB to PCB. And frequency, if it happens once 1 0 a year, no problem, but if it happens every 1 1 day, you are going to end up with red skin or 1 2 chapped hands or what have you. 1 3 Q: So you couldn't say that "prolonged" 1 4 simply meant more than once; is that correct? 1 5 MS. RUTTER: Objection to the vague 1 6 form of the question. 1 7 A: "Prolonged" involves a time factor. 1 8 You could put your hand in a bucket of PCB's 1 9 for a long time or, say, a day and that would 2 0 be prolonged but just a dip and out and a 2 1 washing of the hands would not be in my 2 2 opinion considered prolonged. I don't know if 2 3 that's a good example or not. 2 4 Q: In other words, if in a week period 2 5 of time you had to dip your hand on three Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015512 84 1 occasions in PCB for an instant, you wouldn't 2 consider that prolonged? 3 A: I don't know if it is three or five 4 or ten or one. That's never been established 5 and it would be difficult to establish. 6 Q: So if someone had to put their hands 7 in the PCB's on three occasions over a period 8 of a month for in and out., you would not 9 consider that a.prolonged contact; is that 1 0 correct? 1 1 A: Not as far as my personal experience 1 2 is concerned. I have done it myself. 1 3 Q : Okay. 1 4 As Nothing happened. 1 5 Q: Do you know what safety procedures 1 6 were instituted at Westinghouse for the 1 7 handling of PCB's? 1 8 A: I know some of them. I don't pretend 1 9 to know everything they have done. I was 2 0 aware of safety sheets in which the material 2 1 is described and how it should be handled; I 2 2 am aware that they had gloves made available 2 3 to their employees for use; I'm aware of 2 4 aprons to protect their clothing from getting 2 5 contaminated; I'm aware of their interest in Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015513 1 the type of shoe that would withstand exposure A'\ N _A2 to the PCB's. 3 Q : Go to shoes. Leather shoes would be 4 eaten by PCB compounds within six months? 5 A: It wasn't the leather so much, - 6 although the leather was a material that 7 tended to retain the PCB, it would soak into 8 the leather. The problem was with the soles 9 that would curl.and these soles were made of 1 0 materials that were not resistant to PCB's. 1 1 Q: Okay. So the shoe would be distorted 1 2 in a matter of six months in the PCB 1 3 environment such as a factory? 1 4 A: It depended how much the employee 1 5 walked through or exposed those soles to the 1 6 liquid. 1 7 Q : Okay. And for that reason, in 1 8 Monsanto's facilities, special booties were 1 9 provided? 2 0 A: We did provide booties, yes. 2 1 Qs Okay. Were those special booties 2 2 provided at Westinghouse's facility? 2 3 A: I don't know. . . w\ 2 4 Q: Did you have any mechanism that you 'v 1/2 5 know of whereby Monsanto monitored ^ Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015514 6 1 Westinghouse's procedures? 2 MS. RUTTER: Objection to use of the 3 word "monitored" but you may answer. ---------------------------------------------------- 4 A: I don't know of any procedure. We **" n 5 communicated and we were dealing with a X"- 6 sophisticated corporation that had really more | 7 resources than Monsanto did so -- t ... 8 Q: Very good. Very good. You got that l 9 right. I don't.know. 1 0 MS. RUTTER: Excuse me. Counsel, you 1 1 cut off his answer. Please continue. 1 2 A: I don't know what -- 13 Q : A- P1us . 1 4 A: We were dealing with a sophisticated i\ \ 1 5 customer. Resources were equal or better than 1 6 Monsanto in many respects. 1 7 MR. RACE: Do you have a tele 1 8 prompter behind me? 1 9 A: So when we say, "Don't get it on your 2 0 skin," we really believed to this day that 2 1 they are capable of finding gloves that will 2 2 protect the skin, for example, and so on. \ 2 3 Q: Yes. And would you agree that that's 2 4 a shared responsibility between the y 2 5 manufacturer and the employer? \ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SDOOOO015515 1 A: Shared? 2 MS. RUTTER: Objection to the vague 3 and confusing and overbroad form of the 4 question. 5 A: No, I don't think that's shared 6 because once the material enters the 7 customer's plant, it is really -- when it 8 leaves Monsanto's plant gate, we have no 9 control over it. 1 0 Q: You have no control over it and no 1 1 responsibility for it; is that correct? 1 2 A: It is not our property anymore. 1 3 Q: Okay. So then you have no control 1 4 and no responsibility for it once it leaves 1 5 your gate; is this what you are telling me? 1 6 A: It all depends what you mean by 1 7 "responsibility." We were responsible in 1 8 communicating in advance how it should be 1 9 handled. We were responsible in the way it 2 0 was put into that vehicle and buttoned up. We 2 1 were responsible in seeing that that tank car 2 2 was in good shape when it left our plant, that 2 3 the wheels were on it, for example -- I'm 2 4 exaggerating a bit but there are some 2 5 responsibilities but once you fulfill those Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015516 1 and transfer that carload of material, 2 Monsanto has -- can't possibly control it. 3 Even if they put a person on to ride with that 4 car, you can't control it. 5 Q: Okay. And once Monsanto became aware 6 of any misuses of its product at its 7 customer's facilities, it had no 8 responsibility; is this what you are telling 9 me ? 10 . y^_______________ ____ MS. RUTTER: Objection. Are you ____ 1 1 asking a hypothetical question? 1 2 Q: Subject to the objection -______________________________________________________ 1 3 A: I'm wrestling with the understanding 1 4 of the word "responsible." We have already 1 5 shared with the customer everything we know \ 1 6 about the material. There isn't any more we | 1 7 can do. This is no different than the auto 1 8 manufacturer and your car. It is in your 1 9 hands. The auto manufacturer is not 2 0 responsible for any misuse you make of that 2 1 vehicle . 2 2 Q: Okay. So, once again, let's get back 2 3 to my question. Once Monsanto learns of the 2 4 misuse of a product in the possession of a 2 5 customer, does Monsanto have any Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015517 89 1 responsibility? 2 MS. RUTTER: Counsel, which 3 designated topic is this on? "A," it's been 4 asked and answered, but "B," what topic are 5 you on ? - 6 MR. RACE: Any infractions by 7 Westinghouse with respect to recommended 8 safety procedures. 9 MS. RUTTER: Counsel, he says he 1 0 visited Westinghouse plants and he didn't see 1 1 any unsafe procedures so what you are doing is 1 2 asking a hypothetical question that's beyond 1 3 the topic designated. /"" ' --------------"------------------:---------------------------------------------------------- 1 4 Q: Did you see any, quote, "sloppiness," 1 5 end quote, at the Westinghouse facility? A I' 16 A: Not in my understanding of it. ' 1 7 Q: Did you see any conditions which 1 8 exposed Westinghouse 1 s employees to PCB's in a 1 9 manner not intended by Monsanto? 2 0 A : No . 2 1 Q: Did you hear of any reports of 2 2 Westinghouse ' s procedures being sloppy? 2 3 A: Yes, I recall a comment made by 2 4 someone in which the word "sloppy" appeared 2 5 but I don't know what that person meant when Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015518 1 he used that word. I don't know if it meant 2 that it resulted in an unkempt factory- 3 appearance or whether it meant that employees 4 were unduly exposed. I have no way of knowing 5 what that use of the word "sloppy" meant. , 6 Q: Okay. What period of time did you 7 hear that? 8 A: Late sixties. Middle to late 9 sixties. . _________ > 1 0 Q: Did you take it upon yourself to 1 1 further investigate what that sloppy condition 1 2 was? 1 3 A : No . 1 4 Q: Did Monsanto have a policy at that 1 5 period of time, from '65 to '70, to 1 6 investigate what a sloppy condition or misuse 1 7 of a product in a customer's facility was? 1 8 MS. RUTTER: Objection to the use of 1 9 the term "investigate" and I think we are now 2 0 back to the topic that you said you were going 2 1 to do during his personal deposition. 2 2 Q: Okay. Answer that and then we will 2 3 get off of it. 2 4 MS. RUTTER: I'm going to permit you 2 5 to answer the question. Do you need to have Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015519 91 1 it read back? 2 Q: Can you answer? 3 As Can I answer? 4 Q : Yes. 5 A: Whether Monsanto had a policy ... 6 regarding correcting sloppy conditions. 7 Q: In customer facilities? 8 A: In customers' facilities. I'm not 9 aware of any such policy. > 1 0 Q: Okay. Let's move on to your personal 1 1 deposition. 1 2 MR. RACE: Do you want to end this? 1 3 MS. RUTTER: I have a few questions 1 4 before we end this. 1 5 EXAMINATION 1 6 QUESTIONS BY MS. RUTTER: 1 7 Q: Mr. Papageorge, when you said you 1 8 heard a report in the late 1 9 6 0 ' s where the 1 9 word "sloppy" was used in relation to a 2 0 Westinghouse facility, I can't remember the 2 1 precise terminology the plaintiff's counsel 2 2 used, in asking a few follow-up questions 2 3 about that, what, if anything, was done in 2 4 response to that report that used the word 2 5 "sloppy"? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015520 92 1 A: This resulted in an invitation to 2 ives of Westinghouse to come by one 3 of Monsanto's plants at which PCB's were 4 manufactured and get really familiar with the' 5 kind of things that Monsanto did regarding 6 workers and PCB exposure and the 7 representatives did come by and we were able 8 to share with them the types of gloves we use, 9 these booties we referred to earlier, the type 1 0 of respirators for breathing in fumy 1 1 conditions, the kind of ointments that are 1 2 used sometimes to protect hands; that type of 1 3 discussion was held at the plant, Monsanto's 1 4 plant . 1 5 Q: And then did you personally visit the 1 6 Westinghouse Bloomington plant? 1 7 A: I did, yes. 1 8 Q: Do you remember approximately when 1 9 that occurred? ' 2 0 A: That was in the summer of 1 9 7 0, June 2 1 or July. 2 2 Q: Did you see any practices that you 2 3 would describe as "sloppy" in relation to 2 4 worker practices at that time? 2 5 A: No. No, my understanding of the word Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015521 1 II sloppy" didn't fit. 93 2 Q: Mr. Papageorge, when you were 3 communicating -- when Monsanto was 4 communicating with the government during the 5 time period 1970 to 1976 when you were in .. 6 your -- what was your title during that time 7 period? 8 A: Oh, it had several changes. Manager, 9 environmental eithetor control or protection, 1 0 that type of title. 1 1 Q: During the time period 1970 through 1 2 1 9 7 6 when you were in the job description that 1 3 related to environmental control, were you 1 4 present when statements were made to the 1 5 government by Monsanto in relation to the past 1 6 history of usage of PCB's by workers in 1 7 industry? 1 8 A: I was present in many meetings, not 1 9 all of them. 2 0 Q: Who typically spoke to 2 1 ives of the government on that 2 2 topic? 2 3 A: Oh, it would be -- Elmer Wheeler from 2 4 Monsanto's chemical department was the 2 5 spokesman. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015522 1 Q: Did Mr. Wheeler ever make any % 2 statements to the government, any unqualified 3 statement, that there had never been a single 4 human problem in relation with the use of 5 PCB'S? - 6 A: "Never," no, not "never." There had 7 never been one properly handled is the way it 8 was put. 9 Q: Okay. Counsel asked you - 1 0 plaintiff's counsel asked you some questions 1 1 about the communications between Monsanto and 1 2 Westinghouse and there was a time period when 1 3 you started enumerating some of the manners in 1 4 which communications were made and I know you 1 5 touched on brochures and bulletins and you 1 6 touched on personal communications and then I 1 7 think the conversation went so that that topic 1 8 was cut off. Were there any other methods 1 9 other than customer bulletins and person-to- 2 0 person communications? 2 1 MR. RACE: Object to the form of the 2 2 question, leading. 2 3 Q: What, if any, other methods were used 2 4 to communicate with Westinghouse? v2 5 A: Of course, the labels, product labels \y Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015523 %k1 were an important piece of communications. I 2 can't think of any other at the moment. Much 3 of it was person-to-person, really. 4 MR. RACE: Don't worry, she will 5 before trial. 6 THE WITNESS: She will? 7 Q: Have you ever seen correspondence 8 between Westinghouse and Monsanto? 9 A : Yes. . 1 0 MS. RUTTER: Okay. That's all I 1 1 have . 1 2 EXAMINATION 1 3 QUESTIONS BY MR. RACE: 1 4 Q: When you say, "labels, " 1 5 Mr. Papageorge, is this the type of thing you 1 6 are referring to? 1 7 A: Yes, that's an example. 1 8 Q: Okay. "This" being what was produced 1 9 by Monsanto in a folder marked "Bechtold 2 0 versus Monsanto, Inspection Folder 187," 2 1 titled "Labels," refers to labels here 2 2 appearing as Bates stamp numbers BEC131744 2 3 going to 131817? 2 4 MR. WUNDERLICH: 131817? 2 5 MR. RACE: Yes. Okay. Can we jump Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015524 1 into your let's cut this. 2 MS. RUTTER: And could you just put 3 this in a separate please? 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 96 WATER PCB-SD0000015525 97 1 COMES NOW THE WITNESS, WILLIAM B. 2 PAPAGEORGE, P.E., and having read the 3 foregoing transcript of the deposition taken 4 on the 6th day of June, 1994, acknowledges by 5 signature hereto that it is a true and 6 accurate transcript of the testimony given on 7 the date hereinabove mentioned. 8 9 10 1 1 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, P.E. 1 2 Subscribed and sworn to me before this 1 3 day of 19 94. 14 My Commission expires: JOSEPHINE 8. NIBIOCK -- NOTARY POBLICSTATE OTHlSSOURI 1 5 ST. LOUIS CO^TY MY COMMISSION EXP. JAN. 15.1693 16 17 1 8 Notary Public 19 2 0 vw 21 2 2 Bechtold, et al., v. Monsanto, et al. 23 24 25 Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015526 CASE NAME: Bechtold v. Monsanto, Case # 922-00911 WITNESS NAME: William B. Papageorge (Designee) DATE: June 6, 1994 DEPOSITION CORRECTION SHEET Upon reading the deposition and before subscribing thereto, the deponent indicated the following changes should be made: Page 1 V , Line / 3 Should read: brari o / t^C/(mG'j , 77? g Reason for change: ________Spe//,,7^ Page 2 3, Line 7 Should read: (?evc. btphorx-fj /ticlec-ule. ,, Reason for change: _____cor rcc,t tuoircb Page 3O , Line /b Should read: referred i-c -^e. cj, C^rem-t -e-f-fechis o -f 4h e~* 5 Reason for change: ________5 pg //oc, Page 5 T , Line 2 3 Should read: et nd, -HioSc, Urerc uSc<J J-t dc k s w < ri c Tfrc, ____C-CriC On A \n Vn $_______________________________________ _______ Reason for change: ________-docorrect uoorci Page , Line 2 4 Should read: med/cgf <deparlrrxr>n'h uyn6 ^e- Reason for change: TT-i correct 6u 6> re/- frC/cCCc-<eZ'**' C/^dz. Signature of Witness ^ WATER PCB-SD0000015527 97 1 COMES NOW THE WITNESS, WILLIAM B. 2 PAPAGEORGE, P.E., and having read the 3 foregoing transcript of the deposition taken 4 on the 6th day of June, 1994, acknowledges by 5 signature hereto that it is a true and . 6 accurate transcript of the testimony given on 7 the date hereinabove mentioned. 8 9 10 1 1 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, P.E. 1 2 Subscribed and sworn to me before this 1 3 _ _ day of __________ / 1 9 9 4. 1 4 My Commission expires: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 15 16 17 1 8 Notary Public 19 2 0 vw 21 2 2 Bechtold, e t' a 1 . , v. Monsanto, et a 1 . 23 24 25 Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015528 98 1 State of Missouri 2 SS . 3 City of St. Louis 4 I, Victoria L. Wilson, a Notary Public in 5 and for the State of Missouri, duly .. 6 commissioned, qualified and authorized to 7 administer oaths and to certify to 8 depositions, do hereby certify that pursuant 9 to Notice in the civil cause now pending and 1 0 undetermined in the Circuit Court of the City 1 1 of St. Louis, State of Missouri, to be used in 1 2 the trial of said cause in said court, I was 1 3 attended at the offices of Husch & 1 4 Eppenberger, 100 North Broadway, Suite 1300, 1 5 in the City of St. Louis, State of Missouri, 1 6 by the aforesaid witness; and by the aforesaid 1 7 attorneys; on the 6th day of June, 1994. 1 8 The said witness, being of sound mind and 1 9 being by me first carefully examined and duly 2 0 cautioned and sworn to testify the truth, the 2 1 whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the 2 2 case aforesaid, thereupon testified as is 2 3 shown in the foregoing transcript, said 2 4 testimony being by me reported in shorthand 2 5 and caused to be transcribed into typewriting, Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015529 99___________________________________________________________________ ._____________________________________________________ ;___________________________ 1 and that the foregoing pages correctly set 2 forth the testimony of the aforementioned 3 witness, together with the questions 4 propounded by counsel and remarks and 5 objections of counsel thereto, and is in all 6 respects a full, true, correct and complete 7 transcript of the questions propounded to and 8 the answers given by said witness; that 9 signature of the deponent was notwaived by 1 0 agreement of counsel. 1 1 I further certify that I am not of 1 2 counsel or attorney for either of the parties 1 3 to said suit, not related to nor interested in 1 4 any of the parties or their attorneys. 1 5 Witness my hand and notarial seal at 1 6 St. Louis, Missouri, this _ _ _ _ day of 1 7 __________ 1994. 1 8 My Commission expires March 14, 1997. 19 2 0 Notary Public in and for the 2 1 State of Missouri 22 23 24 25 Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015530 10 0 1 COURT MEMO 2 CIRCUIT COURT OF THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS 3 STATE OF MISSOURI 4 JUDITH BECHTOLD, et al . , 5 vs. CAUSE NO. 922-00911 . 6 MONSANTO COMPANY, et al. 7 8 CERTIFICATE OF OFFICER AND 9 STATEMENT.OF DEPOSITION CHARGES 1 0 (Rule 57.03(g)(2)(a) & Sec. 492.590 RSMO 1985) 1 1 DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, P.E. 1 2 TAKEN ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFFS 1 3 June 6, 1994 14 1 5 Name and address of person or firm having 1 6 custody of the original transcript: 1 7 MURRAY LAW FIRM 1 8 909 Poydras Street, Suite 2550 1 9 NEW ORLEANS, LA 70112; 2 0 TAXED IN FAVOR OF: 2 1 MURRAY LAW FIRM 2 2 909 Poydras Street, Suite 2550 2 3 New Orleans, LA 70112 2 4 99 pages of original & copy @ $3.20 $316.80 2 5 Attendance of reporter & Jurat 61.00 Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015531 10 1 1 Delivery 2 Total $ 3 4 TAXED IN FAVOR OF: 5 HUSCH Sc EPPENBERGER 6 100 North Broadway, Suite 1400 7 St. Louis, Missouri 63102 8 99 pages of copy @ $1.20 $118.80 9 1 0 Total $ 11 1 2 TAXED IN FAVOR OF : 1 3 LEWIS, RICE & FINGERSH 1 4 8182 Maryland Avenue, Suite 400 1 5 St. Louis, Missouri 63105 1 6 99 pages of copy @ $1.20 $118.80 1 7 Delivery 1 8 Total $ 1 9 Upon delivery of transcripts, the above 2 0 charges had not yet been paid. It is 2 1 anticipated that all charges will be paid in 2 2 the normal course of business. 2 3 GORE & PERRY REPORTING CO. 2 4 100 North Broadway, Suite 1175 2 5 St. Louis, Missouri 63102 Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015532 1 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my 2 hand and seal on this day of 3 1 9 9 4. 4 My Commission expires March 14, 1997. 5 6 7 Notary Public 8 9 > 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 10 2 WATER PCB-SD0000015533 Gofj. ?^.roT~isc Co.s'.r/.ST. lsc. I OO Non w BR5AOWAY Suit c 1 175 Saint Louis. Missouri 63 102 // _/ "f - (3 1^1 24 1-6750 (800) 878*6750 Fax (31-<) 2*41*5070 ]-V2j . / Enclosed "-lease find the original signature page and making any corrections necessary on the errata sheets. The errata sheets should be signed at the space on the bottom, and the signature page should be signed before a Notary Public. ' Sincerely, GORE REPORTING COMPANY cc: * WATER PCB-SD0000015534 (314) 241-6750 (314) 621-4790 (800)S7S-6750 Gore & Perry Reporting Company 100 North Broadway Suite JJ75 Saint Louis, Missouri 63102 Page Line Should read: Reason for assigned change: Page Line Should read: Reason for assigned change: Page Line Should read: '. ' Reason for assigned change: A'. ' Page Line Should read: Reason for assigned change: Page Line Should read: Reason for assigned change: Page Line Shouldread: Reason for assigned change: Page Line Shouldread: Reason for assigned change: Page Line Shouldread: Reason for assigned change: Page Line Shouldread: Reason for assigned change: Page Line Shouldread: Reason for assigned change: Page Line Shouldread: Reason for assigned change: Fax (314) 241-5070 WATER PCB-SD0000015535 (314) 241-6750 (314) 621-4700 (S00)-87S-6750 Gore & Perry Reporting Company JOO North Broadway Suite 1175 Saint Louis, Missouri 63102 Page Line Should read: Reason for assigned change: Page Line Should read: Reason for assigned change: Page Line Should read: - * Reason for assigned change: Page Line Should read: Reason for assigned change: Page Line Should read: J Reason for assigned change: Page Line Should read: Reason for assigned change: Page Line Should read: Reason for assigned change: Page Line Should read: Reason for assigned change: Page Line Should read: Reason for assigned change: Page Line Should read: Reason for assigned change: Page Line Should read: Reason for assigned change: Fax (314) 241-5070 WATER PCB-SD0000015536 97 1 COMES NOW THE WITNESS, WILLIAM B. 2 PAPAGEORGE, P.E., and having read the 3 foregoing transcript of the deposition taken 4 on the 6th day of June, 1994, acknowledges by 5 signature hereto that it is a true and 6 accurate transcript of the testimony given on 7 the date hereinabove mentioned. 8 9 10 1 1 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, P.E. 1 2 Subscribed and sworn to me before this 1 3 _ _ day of __________ / 1 9 94. 1 4 My Commission expires: _______ 15 16 17 1 8 Notary Public 19 2 0 vw 21 2 2 Bechtold, et al., v. Monsanto, et al. 23 24 25 Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015537