Document EBgvg9z8MzyV89aodpDw4ERn

ORIGINAL IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS BEAUMONT DIVISION CHARLES B WRIGHT, ET UX., VS . PLAINTIFFS, MONSANTO COMPANY, ET AL., DEFENDANTS. ) ) ) ) NO. B-85-322-CA ) ) ) ) Deposition of DR. R. EMMETT KELLY Taken on behalf of the PLAINTIFF. GORE REPORTING COMPANY 408 Olive Street St. Louis, Missouri 241-6750 jLJ F1\/FP \ \ L, 1991 GERARD B, DA WATER PCB-SD0000048301 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 2 FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS 3 BEAUMONT DIVISION 4 5 CHARLES B. WRIGHT, ET UX, ) 6) 7 Plaintiffs, ) 8) 9 vs . ) NO. B-85-322-CA 10 ) ]. 1 MONSANTO COMPANY, ET AL., ) 12 ) 13 Defendants. ) 14 15 Deposition of DR. R. EMMETT KELLY, taken 16 on behalf of the Plaintiffs at the Danielle Hotel, 17 in the County of St. Louis, State of Missouri, on 18 the 26th day of September, 1986 before Elsie M. 19 Delevich, Registered Professional Reporter and 20 Notary Public. 21 22 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 WATER PCB-SD0000048302 1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: 2 3 FOR THE PLAINTIFF: 4 Mr. Herschel L. Hobson 5 4000 Twin City Highway 6 Groves, Texas 77619 7 FOR THE DEFENDANT, MONSANTO COMPANY: 8 Mr. Robert A. Hall 9 Woodard, Hall & Primm, P.C. 1 0 4700 Texas Commerce Tower 1 1 Houston, Texas 77002 1 2 FOR THE DEFENDANT, WESTINGHOUSE: 13 Ms. Roseann Oliver 14 Phelan, Pope & John, Ltd. 15 180 North Wacker Drive 16 Chicago, Illinois 60606 17 FOR THE DEFENDANT, GENERAL ELECTRIC: 18 Mr. Morris C. Carrington 19 Mehaffy, Weber, Keith & 20 Gonsoulin 21 Interfirst Tower 22 Beaumont, Texas 77702 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 3 WATER PCB-SD0000048303 1 2 FOR THE DEFENDANT, TRANSFORMER 3 CONSULTANTS: 4 Mi'. Kent G. Sullivan 5 Cook, Davis & Me Fall 6 Two Houston Center, Suite 2600 7 Houston, Texas 7/010 8 FOR THE DEFENDANT, RESEARCH-COTTRELL: 9 Mr. Paul A. Scheurich 10 Henckenstein, Norvell, Bernsen 1 1 & Nathan 12 600 Interfirst Tower 13 P.O. Box 551 14 Beaumont, Texas 77702 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 4 WATER PCB-SD0000048304 1 DR. R. EMMETT K ELL 7 2 of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to 3 testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 4 but the truth in the case aforesaid, deposes and 5 says in reply to oral interrogatories propounded 6 as follows, to-wit: 7 DIRECT EXAMINATION 8 QUESTIONS BY MR. HOBSON: 9 Q. Would you introduce yourself please? 10 A . Yes. I am Dr. R. Emmett Kelly. 1 1 Q. Dr. Kelly, my name is Herschel Hobson. 12 I represent the plaintiff in a lawsuit that has 13 been filed against Monsanto, and I understand you 14 are a past employee of Monsanto; is that right? 15 A . That is correct. 16 Q I am on the opposite side of the lawsuit 1 7 from your past employer, you understand we are 18 adverse? 19 A . Yes, I understand that. 20 Q. What years did you work for Monsanto, 21 sir? 22 A . Prom 1936 until 1974, with the exception 23 of four years during World War II. 24 Q What was your position with Monsanto? 25 A . Before World War II, I was the plant GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 5 WATER PCB-SD0000048305 1 physician on a part-time basis with their plant 2 now called the Queenie plant in St. Louis. 3 Following that, I was given some responsibility 4 tor medical observation of the other plants, and 5 when I returned from the service, I was made 6 medical director. 7 Q. And you remained the medical director 8 until 1974? 9 A. That is correct. 1 0 Q. As the medical director, would you have 1 1 involvement in all of Monsanto's facilities 12 worldwide? 13 A. Yes; with one exception. I did not have 14 involvement with the Japanese plants or the 15 Australian plants. 16 Q . I think we learned a while ago from Mr. 1 7 Papageorge that there was a plant in Japan that 18 manufactured PCBs for a short period of time. So 19 you would have had no involvement with that? 20 A. No involvement with that, no, sir. 2 1 Q. Would you have made recommendations for 22 medical program for that facility? 23 A . No . 24 Q. They were on their own? 25 A. On their own. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 6 WATER PCB-SD0000048306 1 Q . As a physician wi th Monsanto, what is 2 the first work that you recall that involved 3 PCBs ? 4 A. That I was connected with? 5 Q . Yes, sir. 6 A. In 1938, there was a meeting at the 7 Harvard Medical School in which chlorinated 8 napthalenes and chlorinated diphenyls were 9 discussed. They discussed historical events that 10 had occurred at Monsanto before I came aboard. 1 1 Q. Who attended that meeting at Harvard? 12 A. That I can recollect, I was the only one 13 from Monsanto. It was chaired by Professor 14 Drinker of the Harvard School of Public Health, 15 and I just don't remember who the other attendees 16 were . 17 Q. Was this a public forum or was it a 18 private meeting? 19 A. Well, it is hard to say what you mean by 20 public forum. I think almost anyone who had any 21 interested in chlorinated napthalene or 2 2 chlorinated biphenyls was present. 23 Q. Was there a published proceeding of the 2 4 meeting? 25 A. Yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 7 WATER PCB-SD0000048307 1 Q. Where was it published? 2 A. In a now defunct journal, the Journal of 3 Industrial Hygiene and Toxicology, something of 4 that nature. 5 Q. At the meeting, was the discussion 6 limited to the chlorinated products or did you 7 also discuss the raw materials that you used to 8 make chlorinated napthalene and biphenyls? 9 A. To the best of my recollection, it was 10 limited to the final products. 1 1 Q. What in the way of health related events 1 2 did you discuss at that meeting? 13 A. We discussed chloracne, which as I said 14 had occurred historically at Monsanto, and 15 occurred at other -- at some users's places. We 16 discussed chlorinated napthalenes with the 1 7 occurrence of chemical hepatitis in some of the 18 workers. 19 Q. Chemical hepatitis, effects on the 20 liver? 21 A. Yes, that is correct. 22 Q. The chloracne that had historically 2 3 occurred, do you recall what it was, historically, 24 that was discussed at Monsanto? 25 A. Well, some of the workers who were GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 8 WATER PCB-SD0000048308 1 engaged in manufacturing and/or filling of drums 2 had developed chloracne. When I came with 3 Monsanto in 1936, the first time I went down to 4 our Anniston plant, which was conceivably '37, but 5 I don't know. There were no residues, so I saw no 6 one with chloracne. 7 Q. It had been resolved by the time you got 8 there? 9 A. Yes, there were no cases there. 1 0 Q. What steps had been taken to resolve the 1 1 chloracne, if any? 12 A. Simple housekeeping, clean the place up, 13 have the men wear gloves and put a vacuum or 14 device to bring off -- to take away the hot vapors 15 when they are filling the fifty-five gallon drums. 16 Q. Would you happen to recall about what 1 7 the temperature of the material was when it was 18 drummed? 19 A. No, I wouldn't. 20 Q. Do you know if it had been hot enough if 21 it splashed on people it would have burned their 22 skin, from a temperature standpoint? 23 A. I can't answer that. I do not recall 24 that skin burns were a prominent feature of the 25 workers that I met in 1937 onwards. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 9 WATER PCB-SD0000048309 1 Q. So while you can't specifically recall, 2 you didn't find any burn problems, so probably 3 wasn't temperature burn standpoint that there was 4 any concern? 5 A . Well, I can't say that, either. 6 Q . Just don't recall one way or the other? 7 A. I just don't recall whether or not they 8 had burns. If they were wearing gloves, it would 9 forestall any burns, even if the material were 10 pretty hot. 1 1 Q. When you say clean the place up, can you 12 tell me a little bit better what you mean by 13 that? 14 A. Yes. In other words instead of using a 15 dirty rag to wipe off the tops of the drums 16 repeatedly, they would use cloths which they would 1 7 discard into a closed container. 18 Q. Use a new cloth each time they cleaned 19 up a mess? 20 A. I don't know, but they used it much less 2 1 frequently than they had in the past. 2 2 Q. Anything else that you recall? 23 A. Well, the exhaust ventilation. 24 Q. They added exhaust ventilation? 25 A. Yes. And they added gloves. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 10 WATER PCB-SD0000048310 1 Q. Where was the exhaust ventilation 2 added? 3 A Where? 4 Q . Yes, sir. 5 A. Well, the material came out of a vessel, 6 spout, and went down a bong of a fifty-five gallon 7 drum and they put the exhaust apparatus around the 8 bong so it would draw the vapors. 9 Q. So that was the filling operation? 1 0 A . That is correct. 1 1 Q. At the Monsanto plant in Anniston in the 1 2 '30s, was any medical monitoring of these 13 employees conducted? 14 A. Yes, it was. 15 Q . Did you become familiar with what had 1 6 been done or what was being done? 17 A . Yes . 18 Q. What did you find? 19 A. What did 1 find? I don't understand the 20 question. 21 Q. Well, in the '30s, what kind of medical 22 monitoring was being done and what was the result 23 of it? 24 A. We had a plant physician that examined 25 these individuals on an annual basis. There were GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 11 WATER PCB-SD0000048311 1 some liver function tests carried out at that 2 time, not as much as would be now because at that 3 time it required two intervenous injections, an 4 intravenous injection, and it was not 5 enthusiastically accepted. But that result was we 6 found no evidence of chloracne, we found no 7 evidence of malignancy, we found no evidence of 8 hepatitis or liver involvement. 9 Q. About how many employees would we be 1 0 talking about? I know it has been a long time 1 1 ago, but can you give your best estimate? 12 A. Twenty. 13 Q. Were these employees that were doing the 1 4 drumming or do you recall what jobs they might 15 have had? 16 A. Well, they all worked in the same 17 department. So they rotated different jobs. 18 During the drumming operation, there were only one 19 or two people at the drumming operation at the 20 time. Four shifts a day, that is eighty people 2 1 there, but whether they rotated between that 22 operation and other operations in the chlorination 23 or manufacturing of diphenyl, I don't know. 24 Q. Were there other biological monitoring 25 activities going on at the Anniston plant besides GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 12 WATER PCB-SD0000048312 1 just those involved in P C B s ? 2 A . At that time? 3 Q . Yes,sir? 4 A. In the '30s? 5 Q . Yes, sir? 6 A . NO. 7 Q . What was it that, for lack of better B terminology, drew attention to the PCB activity as 9 opposed to -- well, why did you have a program for 1 0 the PCB workers is what I want to know? 1 1 A. Because we had historically an addition 12 of chloracne. There was considerable interest 13 displayed as a result of occurrences of 14 chlorinated naphalene and mixtures of chlorinated 15 napthlene and chlorinated biphenyl and various 16 users, and there was the Drinker symposium. 1 7 Q. The user problems or user interest that 18 Mr. Drinker was ~~ Dr. Drinker helping you with, 19 what - 20 A. Pardon me. He was not helping us. 21 Q. The symposium you mentioned covered user 22 activities. What users are you talking about, and 23 what kinds of activities? 24 A. There were several companies in 25 Massachusetts. Whether these companies were wire GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 WATER PCB-SD0000048313 1 coating or whether they were transformer" 2 companies, I don't know. At that particular time, 3 PCBs were used for insulating electric wires. 4 Q. And those users were having chloracne 5 problems? 6 A. Yes. And they had chemical hepatitis. 7 Q. Were they using chlorinated napthlalenes 8 or using PCBs? 9 A. I think that depends on what job we are 1 0 talking about. If it is wire coating, it is 1 1 almost, to the best of my knowledge, it was 12 entirely chlorinated napthalenes, whether" there 13 was five percent or ten percent PCBs in it. If it 1 4 was a transformer operation it would not have 15 chloracne -- it would not have been chlorinated 16 napthalene, it would have been PCBs. 17 Q. Were there other manufacturers of 18 chlorinated napthalene besides Monsanto? 19 A. Monsanto was not a manufacturer of 20 chlorinated napthalene. 21 Q. Were there other manufacturers at the 22 symposium besides Monsanto? 23 A. I feel sure there were, but I cannot 24 name them. 25 Q. What about some of the parties in this GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 WATER PCB-SD0000048314 1 case, did anyone from Westinghouse attend that 2 meeting? 3 A. I don't remember. 4 Q . GE? 5 MR. HALL; It is only forty-eight years 6 ago . 7 Q. I have to ask. 8 How about General Electric? 9 A. Yes, I believe General Electric was. 1 0 Q. In your medical work at Monsanto, can 1 1 you recall the next grouping of activities or 12 series of activities that you were involved with 13 concerning PCBs? 14 A. We handled PCBs as we would any 15 industrial chemical. We afforded our workers the 16 same examination we afforded the other workers. 17 There were isolated instances in which a company 18 would write into us and it would be referred to me 19 about various questions about safe handling of 20 PCBs, and I recall one instance where -- I don't 21 know the year or I don't know the company, their 2 2 workers were making thermometers, billows type 23 thermometer which was sort of like a little sack 24 about two inches in diameter and an inch thick and 25 they were filling this with PCBs and they were GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 WATER PCB-SD0000048315 1 filling it with their ungloved hands and they had 2 two or three of their workers with chloracne. 3 I went up to that particular place and 4 said, look, can't you use an instrument to dunk 5 these things in the PCBs, which they did, and that 6 took care of it. 7 Then there was one article in the 8 literature about sixties, I believe, in Indiana 9 where this material was used as a heat transfer 1 0 agency, it was a jury rigged affair, and it leaked 1 1 for' about three days. The material obviously -- 12 heat transfer' was elevated temperatures and an 13 individual inhaled and developed, again, a 14 chemical hepatitis with jaundice, from which they 15 recovered. 16 I did not see that case, and it was 1 7 brought to my attention when it appeared in the 18 1iterature. 19 Other than that, until the environmental 20 aspects of PGB surfaced, it was very little that 21 brought PCBs to my attention. 22 Q. That would be in the late sixties when 23 the environmental concerns -- 24 A. Late sixties or early seventies. 25 Q. Were you involved in labeling of GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 WATER PCB-SD0000048316 1 Monsanto materials? 2 A. It depends on the time frame. 3 Q. Early on, in the '30s or '40s, "50s? 4 A . No . 5 Q. Who would have been doing labeling of 6 your products in that era? 7 A. I don't remember. I don't know. 8 Q. Was the medical group that you headed 9 apart from any industrial hygiene or toxicology or 10 any other activities o f Monsanto or did you even 1 1 have those activities i n the '3 0s , '40s or '50s? 12 A. In the '50s we did. In the fifties we 13 engaged one industrial hygienist, I think that was 1 4 probably in the early '50s. By the time I left, 15 we had four or five industrial hygienists. In the 16 '60s, we engaged one toxicologist, and by the time 17 I left, we had four toxicologists, but I can't 18 tell you when each of them came up. 19 Q. Who was the first industrial hygienist, 20 if you recall? 2 1 A. Elwin Wheeler. 22 Q. Was any air sampling for PCBs conducted 23 at any of Monsanto's plants that you are aware 24 of? 25 A. Not that I can recollect. I am not GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1/ WATER PCB-SD0000048317 1 sure. It might very well have been, but I just 2 cannot recollection it. I think it may have, but 3 I just can't answer that. 4 Q. Would it be safe to say that no air 5 sampling was done prior to hiring an industrial 6 hygienist? 7 A. I do not know if any was done by the 8 insurance carrier at the time of the -- in the 9 '36 period when we had -- when they had 1 0 c hlor acne. I was not there then. I do not recall 1 1 anything done following that, because we had no 12 prob1ems. 13 Q. Was it a regular practice of Monsanto to 14 have their insurance carriers provide industrial 15 hygiene services? 16 A. At one time it was. 17 Q . About what time period are we talking 18 about? 19 A. As far as I can tell, '37. We had - 2 0 Liberty Mutual at that time was insurance carrier 21 and they had industrial hygienists that they 22 provided services to their policyholder. They did 23 some hygiene measurements, but I don't recall. 24 Q. What did Mr. Habershal come in, did you 25 ever work with him? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 WATER PCB-SD0000048318 1 A . No . 2 Q. Did Liberty Mutual or whoever the 3 carrier might have been provide you with reports 4 of their surveys? 5 A. I am sure they did, but I don't remember 6 anything of the content. 7 Q. But it was a practice to write down the B results of what they found? 9 A. Are we talking about anything now or 1 0 PCBs ? 1 1 Q . Anything. 12 A. I am sure they told us when they went 13 into a plant and did some sampling, but to the 14 best of my knowledge -- well, I do know there was 15 something strikingly out of line in it. So --- but 16 I don't know the figures and I have no 17 recollection of what products they examined for. 18 Q. Do you know if there is any place that 19 those reports might be retained? 2 0 A. I haven't the slightest idea, and I 21 would doubt very much if they are retained for 2 2 forty-five years. 23 Q. Over the years, in any time period that 24 you are aware of, have any of the employees of 25 Monsanto been followed biologically, in biological GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 WATER PCB-SD0000048319 1 monitoring for PCBs other than what you told me 2 about in the '30s? 3 A. Yes. Once in either late '60s or early 4 '70s I examined a group at the Krummrich plant, 5 that is at the Sauget plant in Illinois. And I 6 presume by biological monitoring, you mean 7 checking their body fluids for the presence ot 8 PCBs . 9 Q . Fluids or tissues? 10 A. At no time were tissues examined. 11 We did run, on these individuals, a 1 2 blood PCB. You must remember the techniques for 13 examining anything for PCBs in organic fluids was 1 4 was pretty difficult until some time around the 15 late '60s or '70s. 16 Q. Do you recall approximately how many 17 people you looked at at that occasion? 18 A. In the neighborhood of twenty. 19 Q. So the workforce making PCB was 20 relatively stable in number over the years? 21 A. I think you told me about twenty at 22 Anniston? 23 A. Well, I can't answer that whether it was 24 stable or not. We are talking about two different 25 plants, remember, and obviously we made more PCBs GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 20 WATER PCB-SD0000048320 1 in the '60s than we made in the '30s. Whether we 2 had an increased work force or not, I don't know. 3 Q. Any other occasions that you can recall 4 of doing any biological monitoring? 5 A . No, I cannot recall. 6 Q I take it while you were with Mons anto, 7 you did not have an epidemiology program 8 in-house? 9 A . Did not. 10 Q. Did you ever contract with anyone else 1 1 or work with anybody else on doing any 12 epidemiological studies of Monsanto employees? 13 A . No, I did not. 1 4 Q. The toxicity testing, I think you said 15 while you were with Monsanto, you did hire some 16 toxicologist. Were they in your department? 17 A . Yes. 18 Q Did they perform or have performed any 19 tests on PCB containing materials? 20 A . That is a double question. They did not 21 perform the test. They had them performed 22 Q. Can you tell me what they had performed 23 and what your recollection is of when? 24 A . They had some performed at the 25 University of Cincinnatti, the Kettering GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 21 WATER PCB-SD0000048321 1 Institute. They had some performed at the 2 industrial biotech laboratory in Chicago. 3 Q . Do you recall when the Kettering work 4 was done? 5 A. It was done before the industrial 6 biotech work was done. It was inhalation studies, 7 and it was reported in the literature, so it would 8 be easy to find, but I don't remember the decade 9 that it was done. 10 Q. Would you recall what products were 1 1 tes ted? 12 A. I know 1254 was and I believe 1242. 13 Q. The IBT work, do you recall what 14 products were tested there? 15 A. Again, 1254 was. I don't recall if any 16 others were done at the same time. 17 Q. Do you remember the approximate dates of 18 the IBT work? 19 A. Late '60s. 20 Q. Did you know Joe Kliner? 2 1 A. Yes . 22 Q. Do you still communicate with Joe? 23 A. No, I haven't talked to Joe for ten 24 years . 25 Q. Are you aware of any follow-ups to the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 22 WATER PCB-SD0000048322 1 Harvard symposium? Was there a second symposium 2 or any other work groups or any other meetings 3 that evolved from that symposium? 4 A. I can't think of any. I don't recall 5 any at all. 6 Q. Were you ever involved in determining 7 either through measurement or through estimation 8 any exposures of any Monsanto employees to PCBs? 9 A. Well, again, I would say I went through 10 the plants before I had an industrial hygienist on 1 1 a yearly -- at least yearly basis, and I would 12 inspect the plants and I would look over the 13 housekeeping and I would look over the presence of 14 exhaustion ventilation. I would speak to the 15 plant physician about occurrence of chloracne or 16 non occurrence of chloracne, as it was, and it 17 that is what you mean by observance, yes, I did. 18 Q. Did you follow up your visits to the 19 plants with any kind of written report or 20 memorandum? 21 A. Well, there would be a memorandum to 22 file and memorandum to the plant physician -- to 23 the plant manager. 24 Q. Do you know where those reports would be 25 maintained? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 23 WATER PCB-SD0000048323 1 A . No w ? 2 Q. Well, let's talk about when you left? 3 A. No, because we had. what was called a 4 retention policy, which was to keep us from being 5 swamped by paperwork. And, so, we had two files 6 that we talked -- in our medical department on a 7 particular product. We had a product file, which 8 would consist of information, letters from 9 customers, and a plant file, which was related to 10 the plant. At five year intervals or so, we would 1 1 discard material that did not appear to be of 12 current interest, so I haven't the slightest idea 13 where that material is. 14 Q. How did you go about following the 15 medical and scientific literature in pre-computer 16 era ? 17 A. Well, first of all, medical literature, 18 in the pre-computer era was not as extensive as it 19 is now. There were probably three, at the most 20 four journals in the English language relating to 21 toxicology, industrial hygeine and occupational 22 medicine. We subscribed to all those and 23 circulated them around our department and kept up 24 that way. 25 After the department enlarged, the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI . 24 WATER PCB-SD0000048324 1 various people would examine various magazines and 2 if there was something of interest to all of us, 3 they would photostat it and send it around to us. 4 Q. Were there any professional 5 organizations that dealt with occupational 6 medicine or industrial hygiene that youi' people V regularly attended? 8 A. Yes. I attended the industrial medical 9 association, now called the occupational medical 10 association. There was an American Academy of 1 1 Occupational Medicine, which I attended, and after 12 a while, I spent more time there than I did with 13 the occupational medical association because that 1 4 was - - had different points of view. They were 15 related more to the business side of occupational 16 medicine. There was, in the late seventies, there 1 7 was a toxicological plan that our toxicologist 18 attended, in was an industrial hygiene association 19 that our industrial hygienist attended. 20 Q. You mentioned the late seventies. You 21 left - 22 A. I'm sorry, the seventies. Industrial 23 hygienist, that was through the sixties. 24 Q. I think it was the toxicology -- you 25 said the late seventies? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 25 WATER PCB-SD0000048325 1 A . That was an error. The Toxicological 2 Society started about three or four years before 1 3 left Monsanto. So it must have been '70, '71 4 era . 5 Q . What has been your relationship with 6 Monsanto since 1974? 7 A. Well, I get their newsletters, I get 8 invited to the senior dinners, I have been 9 consulted by them on some cases, I have given 1 0 depositions in various cases and have testified 11 v ariou s times. 12 Q. Do they pay you a consultant's fee when 13 they utilize you for these various capacities? 14 A. Yes, they do. 15 Q. Were you ever involved in any 16 epidemiological studies that Monsanto has 17 conducted which pertain to PGBs? 18 A . No . 19 Q. And that is true even through today with 20 your consulting capacity with them? 2 1 A. That's correct. 22 Q. Do you know if Monsanto has ever looked 23 at any other employee tissues and fluids in 24 biological monitoring other than the episode you 25 told me about earlier in the sixties looking at GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 26 WATER PCB-SD0000048326 1 blood even through today? 2 A. I don't know of any. 3 Q. Do you know if there were ever any 4 health related problems from PCBs at the Sauget 5 plant? 6 A. From 1938 until 1974, there were none. 7 I don't know anything after 1974. 8 Q. And prior to '38, was it one of the 9 plants -- I guess it was built thereabouts'? 10 A. It is an old plant, but I do not believe 1 1 any PCBs were manufactured at Sauget until some 12 time in the fifties or sixties. 13 Q. What about at any of the other plants, 14 this -- I don't know if I wrote down the name of 1 5 it, the Queenie plant in St. Louis, did it have 16 PCBs ? 17 A. I don't think it did. 18 Q. I guess there wouldn't be any health 19 related effects from PCBs to anybody there? 20 A. They weren't there, because I don't 2 1 believe they had any PCBs, and as I said before, 22 there were no PCB related health effects to any ot 23 the people at Sauget or Anniston. 24 Q. The UK facility that Monsanto had that 25 made PCBs, was that under your auspices, also? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 27 WATER PCB-SD0000048327 1 A . Yes . 2 Q. That was a later constructed plant, as I 3 recall from Mr. Papageorge ' s testimony. He said 4 in the fifties. Does that jive with your 5 recollection? 6 A. The first time 1 went over to England 7 was in '54, and they had the plants then. And 8 they had a doctor, full time doctor. Dr. Newman. 9 And I talked to him and we asked him about the 10 situations. There were no problems at the English 1 1 installation. 1 2 Q. You were hired full time in 1936 by 13 Monsanto? 14 A . No , part time in '38. 15 Q And how long -16 A . Ful 1 time in 1945 or '48. Four 1 7 ' 48 . 18 Q. Was there a medical director at Monsanto 19 prior to you in this area? 20 A. No, I was the first one. 2 1 Q. When did you get your first full time 22 assistant, approximately? 23 A. Not until some time in the fifties. We 24 had part time assistants all along. We had two 25 part time assistants and then we engaged a full GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 28 WATER PCB-SD0000048328 1 time assistant, I think in early fifties. 2 Q . Do you recall who your first full time 3 assistant was? 4 A. Yes. Dr. Johnson. 5 Q. Where is Dr. Johnson? 6 A. He is director of environmental health 7 fox' BF Goodrich in Akron. 8 Q. Do you recall when he left Monsanto's 9 employment? 10 A. I guess around '69 or '70. 1 1 Q. Did you hire any other full time 12 businesses after Dr. Johnson? 13 A. Dr. Roush. Di'. Roush, engaged him after 14 Dr. Johnson left us. 15 Q. Where is Di'. Roush today? 16 A. He out to be at 800 North Lindberg. 17 Q. He is still at Monsanto? 18 A . Yes . 19 Q. Did Dr. Roush succeed you as medical 20 director, then? 21 A . Yes . 22 Q. Did he hire a replacement when you 23 left? 24 A. Well, he hired -- I forgot to mention I 25 stayed on as a paid consultant for a year. And at GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 29 WATER PCB-SD0000048329 1 that particular time, he had at least two other 2 full time physicians. 1 do not know in what 3 capacity he hired them. But, then, his scope of 4 the department has increased considerably. 5 Q. Who were those two gentleman at that 6 time if you recall? 7 A. Dr. Ernest Tillman, who is now with Olin 8 Matheson, if I am not mistaken, and a Dr. James 9 Spraul, S-P-R-A-U-L, who is still with Monsanto. 10 Q, I asked Mr. Papageorge a bit about how 1 1 you make PCBs, and he told me, and 1 don't know if 12 I can remember it all, but I understand one of the 13 building blocks is biphenyl? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. Did you identify any potential health 16 affects that could be related to biphenyl? 17 A. None. 18 Q. And he told me that, I think, you make 19 the biphenyl from Benzene, that is the beginning 20 product? 2 1 A. Yes. 22 Q. Were you able to identify any health 23 related problems that could be associated with the 24 Benzene? 25 A. No. The Benzene is run into a closed GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 30 WATER PCB-SD0000048330 1 container which is heated by a liquid lead bath 2 which hooks up the two Benzene rings which makes 3 diphenyl, and then diphenyl is pumped out of; that 4 through into a chlorinated and it is chlorinated 5 to various degrees of chlorination. 6 Q. Would you have had any biological 7 monitoring programs of your employees at Monsanto 8 for either the biphenyl or Benzene over the 9 years? 10 A. As far as biphenyl is concerned, no. 1 1 Biphenyl was something that was regulated as 1 2 almost a food additive. I cannot answer whether 13 we ran blood counts on people who might have been 1 4 exposed to Benzene, but we considered their 15 exposure insignificant. 16 Q. And I guess chlorine is the other 17 component we haven't mentioned in the 18 manufacturing, yet. How about for chlorine, were 19 there any biological monitoring programs or any 20 effects you were looking for? 2 1 A. There is no biological monitoring you 22 can do for chlorine. And yearly examination, what 23 was done, chlorine causes an asthmatic type of 24 breathing and it is very easily picked up if you 25 have any excess or repeated exposure to chlorine. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 31 WATER PCB-SD0000048331 1 Q. Mr. Papageorge told us one of the 2 cautionary statements that accompanied the PCBs 3 had to do with prevention of inhaling materials. 4 And he described a cold like symptom that you 5 could get if you did inhale PCBs. Is that 6 something you can distinguish between whether it 7 was PCBs or whether it was chlorine or are these 8 two different things we are talking about? 9 A. Well, the material, at elevated 10 temperatures, and in confined spaces is irritating 1 1 to the lungs, but the main concern -- 12 Q. Which material? 13 A. PCB is. Both of them are. Chlorine, it 14 I had to quantify it, I would think chlorine is 15 somewhat worse. But the main problem of avoiding 16 inhaling PCB is to avoid systemic action on the 1 7 liver. 18 Q. That is the chemical hepatitis you were 19 telling us about? 20 A. That's correct. 2 1 Q. Have you seen anyepidemiological 22 studies done on the employees that made PCBs for 23 Monsanto? 24 A. No, I haven't. 25 Q. Do you know if they exist? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 32 WATER PCB-SD0000048332 1 A . I have heard about them, but I know they 2 did some. 3 Q Do you know the results of what they 4 found? 5 A . No . 6 Q Did you have any input at all into that. 7 those studies? 8 A . No . 9 Q Did you have a practice of publishing 10 your medical findings when you were at Monsanto? 1 1 A . No. There really wasn't time. 1 2 Q Have you had an opportunity to publish 13 any scientific or medical literature yourself? 14 A . About PCBs ox' about other things? 15 Q Other things? 16 A . Yes . 1 7 Q . Would you happen to have a bibliography 18 of your publications? 19 A . It is not that large. 20 Q. Perhaps you could tell me, then, what 21 they are? 22 A. Two of them were with -- concerned a 23 bladder carcinogen. That was in the journal -- 24 New England Journal of Medicine and one in the 25 National Cancer Institute. I was not the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI .. 3 3 ,, WATER PCB-SD0000048333 1 principal author. There were tour of us there. 2 Q. What compound did that deal with? 3 A . Para--aminobiphenyl, which is entirely 4 different from PCBs. No chlorination and has an 5 amine radical. It is entirely different. 6 And the other one was one in the 7 American Public Health Journal which was just sort 8 of a resume of toxilogical findings. It was quite 9 some time ago. Another one was in the Missouri - 10 Journal of Missouri State Medical Association 1 1 which was much like the public health one. Didn't 12 deal with any specific compounds. 13 Q . That is basically your bibliography? 14 A. That is it. 15 Q. What was your association with the 16 bipheny1? 17 A . With w h i c h ? 18 Q. I'm sorry, the compound you described, 19 what was it the amino compound, was it? 20 A. Yes. Aminobipheny1 . It was 2 1 manufactured at two plants, and manufactured and 22 used in three plants at Monsanto. 23 Q. Did you find it to be a bladder 24 carcinogen? 25 A. Yes, it was. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 34 WATER PCB-SD0000048334 1 Q. In your work as the medical director, 2 did you have contact with other company's medical 3 directors, in particular, say. General Electric's 4 medical director? 5 A. Yes . 6 Q. Did any of those discussions or contacts 7 ever involve PCBs? 8 A. I can't recall it they did or not. It 9 is not very prominent in my recollection. 1 0 Q. What about with Westinghouse, would you 1 1 have had contact with Westinghouse medically? 12 MS. OLIVER: Objection. Lack of 13 foundation. 14 Q. You may still answer, if you can. 15 A. No, I don't know if Westinghouse had a 16 medical director or not. 1 don't remember. I 17 remember the General Electric medical directors 18 and we had a group called medical directors forum 19 of which there were thirty-five medical directors 20 of various multi planned operations and General 21 Electric medical director was at that. But 22 Westinghouse was not. So I can't answer your 23 question . 24 Q. What was the time period of this group? 25 A. '50s onward. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 35 WATER PCB-SD0000048335 1 Q. Did you hold regular sessions or was it 2 an ad hoc type of thing? 3 A . They had regular sessions. There were 4 no minutes. It was a myriad of topics were 5 brought up. Some had to do with policy, some had 6 to do with how much do they pay medical directors 7 how much do you pay your industrial hygienist, 8 things you just don't find out unless you talk 9 about them in groups. 1 0 Q. Did that group continue to function 1 1 through '74 when you retired? 12 A. Yes, it is still functioning. 13 Q. What about a company called Transformer 1 4 Consultants ? 15 A. Never heard of them. 16 Q. Research-Cottrell? 17 MR. HALL: What is the question? 18 MR. HOBSON: If he has had any contacts. 19 A. I have had no contacts with them. I 20 know that they were supposed to be an 2 1 environmental company that was supposed to go 22 through the ceiling on the New York stock 23 exchange, which I had no financial or business 24 dealings with them or medical dealings. 25 Q. What did you do during the war? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 36 WATER PCB-SD0000048336 1 A . I was with chemical warfare service at 2 Pine Bluff Arsenal and Edgewood Arsenal. X was in 3 charge of their occupational medical programs. 4 Q. Mr. Papageorge mentioned that he was 5 aware of some Department of Defense useages of 6 PCBs. Did any of that ever come up while you were 7 in the Army? 8 A . No . 9 Q. Had Monsanto begun its program of tier 1 0 testing toxilogically while you were with 1 1 Monsanto? 12 A. Tier testing? 13 Q. Yes, sir, testing toxi1ogica11y 14 compounds as they were developed, do certain tests 15 at the bench sale level, certain tests at pilot 16 plant, certain tests at certain phases of 17 marketing? 18 A. If we are talking about the same thing, 19 we talked -- we had a new compound or compound 20 that was liable to be used in laboratories for 21 development work, we had what we called a package 22 toxicology tests which included dropping into 23 rabbits' eyes and see how irritating it was in the 24 eyes. Yes, we did that. 25 Q. Do you know about when that program was GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 37 WATER PCB-SD0000048337 1 begun? 2 A . ' 50s . Late ' 50s . 3 Q. Would that have preceded your employment 4 of a toxicologist? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Is that something you began? 7 A. Yes . 8 Q. How did or did that program change with 9 time while you were the medical director? 1 0 A. Certainly. They always did the same 1 1 package test on compounds, but as the interest and 1 2 demand for toxilogical information occurred, we 13 had to enlarge it to either longer term animal 14 work or skin work or other things. 15 Q. While you were with Monsanto, did you 16 ever do any toxicological testing in-house or was 17 it always on someone else 1s premises? 18 A. We did no toxilogical testing of 19 animals. We might have done a couple of series of 2 0 patch tests on people. We didn't do any more than 21 one or two of that. It was too much of a hassle. 22 Q. Dr. Kelly, would you have any knowledge 23 about any changes, if they occurred, in the 24 chemical composition of the various PCB materials 25 over the years? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 38 WATER PCB-SD0000048338 1 A . No, I wouldn't. 2 Q . Were you involved at all, from a medical 3 standpoint, in the incineration of PCBs at your 4 Sauget, Illinois plant? 5 A. No, except that I knew they had one 6 there or they were building one. That occurred 7 very close to the time I left. 8 Q. Did you have anything to do with 9 prescribing any tests or any protective equipment 10 or anything like that to be done either on the 1 1 employees or provided to the employees? 1 2 A. Wait. Break that down into individual 13 questions . 14 Q. Yes, sir. I just want to know if 15 medically you had any input into the procedures 16 they would have followed? 17 A. At that particular time, in the early 18 seventies, we looked over any development 19 bulletins that went out, we looked over labels at 20 that time, and we prescribed -- advised against 21 breathing it at elevated temperature, repeated or 22 prolonged skin contact, do not take internally, 23 yes, I had that relationship. 24 Q. When you say elevated temperatures, can 25 you give me an idea what you are talking about? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 39 WATER PCB-SD0000048339 1 A. Well, it varies with the PCBs. They 2 have vapor pressures that vary considerably. At 3 ambient temperature, there is no great problem. 4 Elevated temperatures, 200 degrees C, you wouldn't 5 want to breath it in a closet. 6 Q. That is the best you can do on what 7 elevated temperature means? 8 A. Yes. I think people recognize that 9 elevated means significantly over ambient 1 0 temperature, and I don't believe they quantified 1 1 the term significant. 12 Q. Do you know if there is any kind of a 13 guideline or standard for concentration of PCBs 14 that worker exposure is to be controlled by? 15 A. Yes. First of ail, the government 16 industrial hygienist put out a standard for 17 chlorinated biphenyls of various chlorine 18 concentration. It was based on the Cincinatti 19 work that Monsanto fostered. Then when the OS HA 20 came in, OSHA developed certain standards which 2 1 listed the amount for eight hour day with 22 presumably ceiling levels. 23 Q. The work at Cincinatti, the Kettering 24 work, that was in the '50s, I think you told me? 25 A. I thought it was the late '50s or early GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 40 WATER PCB-SD0000048340 1 '60s. I am not sure. 2 Q. And that was the basis of the American 3 Conference of Environmental Hygienists were? 4 A. That was the only information around. I 5 can't speak for them, but it was one of the 6 factors that led them to establish a safe working 7 level. 8 Q. Do you recall if at that time it was a 9 maximum allowable concentration or whether it was 10 a threshold limit value? 1 1 A. I think it was MAC, maximum allowable 12 concentration, at that time. I believe. I am not 13 certain. 14 Q. Did you get input to the committee that 15 established that standard? 16 A. I don't recall that I did. I don't 1 7 think so. 18 Q. Do you remember who was on the 19 committee? 20 A . No idea. 21 Q . What use was made of the ACGI MACS in 22 that time period from a regulatory standpoint, if 23 you know? 24 A. I don't know. 25 Q. Do you recall if it had a skin GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 41 WATER PCB-SD0000048341 1 notation? 2 A . Yes. They had a skin notation meant it 3 could be absorbed through the skin. Yes, it did 4 have that. 5 Q. Was it listed by its trade name or by 6 its chemical name? 7 A. I believe it was listed by the chemical 8 name, because there were quite a few trade names, 9 it was Aroclor, Inerteen, Pyranol, so 1 think it 1 0 was listed as chlorinated biphenyl fifty-tour 11 percent chlorine, forty-two percent chlorine. 12 Q. I think you mentioned earlier you 13 visited at least three of the plants that made 14 PCBs. You told me about the UK visit? 15 A. Anniston. 16 Q. And Sauget? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. Can you tell me any differences in your 19 observations at those plants or were they all 20 about the same? 21 MR. HALL: As to what topic? 22 Q. PCBs and manufacturing and what you 23 observed as the medical director as you walked 24 around? 25 A. I can't recall any differences, with the CORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 42 WATER PCB-SD0000048342 1 exception that the Wales plant, Newport, England 2 plant was a more modern one than the Anniston 3 plant. That is the extent of my recollection. 4 Q. Would you be in a position to say, 5 especially back in the '40s, '30s and '40s and 6 '50s when you made these walk-throughs, would the 7 employee exposures, if any, have been higher or 8 lower at any one plant or would they be the same? 9 A. I would think -- I believe they are ail 10 the same, and they are all extremely high from 1 1 observational point of view. 12 Q. Would they have -- if employee exposures 13 have changed any with time, would they have gotten 14 higher or lower or would they have stayed the 15 same, based on your observations? 16 A. Well, I think employee exposures are 17 always improving due to employee practices. And, 18 so, I think if any, they may have been improving. 19 But at no time did I consider that there was a 20 significant hazard to any of the workers at the 21 three plants. 22 Q. But as a general trend, the exposures 23 would have been downwards with time? 2 4 A. I think that is correct. 25 Q. Would there have been any groups within GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 43 . WATER PCB-SD0000048343 1 the plant that would have had a different exposure 2 than any other group? In other words, would 3 maintenance people have a different exposure than 4 operations people compared to drum fillers 5 compared to tank car fillers, any group, 6 comparison like that you can recall? 7 A. Maintenance workers usually have a 8 larger exposure because they are taking down 9 equipment; but they have less exposure from a 10 point of time. So they have probably higher -- 1 1 well, maybe not, because they are not at elevated 12 temperatures, either, when they are working on 13 these, and it is down to room temperature. So I 14 cannot answer your question. 15 Q. Just can't decide? 16 A. Can't decide. 17 Q. What I would like to know is if you can 18 give me any guidance if we had a listing of the 19 different jobs that the employees at the two 20 plants, Anniston and Sauget, did, is there any way 21 that you know that we could go back in time and 22 say this group of jobs would be a relatively 23 speaking low exposure group, this group of workers 24 would be in a middle exposure group, and this 25 group of workers would be in a high exposure GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 44 WATER PCB-SD0000048344 1 group, without quantifying that, just 2 qualitatively high, medium and low, is there any 3 way you can categorize these jobs based on 4 exposure? I am talking about your personal 5 obs ervations. 6 MS . OLIVER: And without speculating? 7 A . Yes I don't think I can. 8 Q. So it would be your observation that any 9 attempt to do that would be just speculation? 10 A. I think it would. 11 MR. HOBSON: I think that is all I have. 12 CROSS EXAMINATION 13 BY MR. HALL: 14 Q Dr. Kelly, how old a gentleman are you? 15 A . 76 . 16 MR . HALL: Thank you very much. 17 Anybody else have any questions? 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 45 WATER PCB-SD0000048345 1 2 COMES NOW THE WITNESS DR. R. EMMETT 3 KELLY, and having read the to regoing transcript of 4 the deposition taken on the 26th day of September, 5 1986, acknowledges by signature hereto that it is 6 a true and accurate transcript of t. h e testimony 7 given on the date hereinabove mentioned. 8 9 10 1 1 DR. R. EMMETT KELLY 12 Subscribed and sworn to me before this 13 day o E , 1987. 14 My Commission expires: 15 16 17 18 19 Notary Public. 20 ii !21 i i 22 23 24 r 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 46 WATER PCB-SD0000048346 1 State of Missouri 2 ) ) SS . 3 City of St. Louis ) 4 I, ELSIE M. DELEVICH, a Notary Public in 5 and for the State of Missouri, duly commissioned, 6 qualified and authorized to administer oaths and 7 to certify to depositions, do hereby certify that 8 pursuant to Notice in the civil cause now pending 9 and undetermined in the United States District 10 Court for the Eastern District of Texas, Beaumont 1 1 Division, to be used in the trial of said cause in 12 said court, I was attended at the Danielle Hotel, 13 in the County of St. Louis, State of Missouri, by 14 the aforesaid witness; and by the aforesaid 15 attorneys; on the 26th day of September, 1986. 16 The said witness, being of sound mind and 17 being by me first carefully examined and duly 18 cautioned and sworn to testify the truth, the 19 whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case 20 aforesaid, thereupon testified as is shown in the 21 foregoing transcript, said testimony being by me 22 reported in shorthand and caused to be transcribed 23 into typewriting, and that the foregoing pages 24 correctly set forth the testimony of the 25 aforementioned witness, together with the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 47 _ WATER PCB-SD0000048347 1 questions propounded by counsel and remarks and 2 objections of counsel thereto, and is in all 3 respects a full, true, correct and complete 4 transcript of the questions propounded to and the 5 answers given by said witness; that signature of 6 the deponent was not waived by agreement of 7 counsel. 8 1 further certify that I am not of 9 counsel or attorney for either of the parties to 10 said suit, not related to nor interested in any of 11 the parties or their attorneys. 12 Witness my hand and notarial seal at 13 St Louis, Missouri, this day of 14 19 8 7. 15 My Commission expires August 8, 1988. 16 fn- kimcb 17 18 Notary Public in and for the 19 State of Missouri. 20 21 22 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 48 WATER PCB-SD0000048348