Document DxXrraemqmX7XGgzGmp6mn25

1 ....: 1 IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS OF WASHINGTON COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA 2 3 ESTATE OF BOYD CUTRIGHT, 4 Plaintiffs, 5 -against- 6 A-BEST PRODUCTS COMPANY, ET AL., 7 Defendants. 8 9 10 VIDEOTAPE DEPOSITION of the Defendant, 11 FRICTION MATERIALS STANDARDS INSTITUTE, taken by 12 and through its representative, EDWARD W. DRISLANE, 13 held at the Marriott Hotel, 189 Wolf Road, Suite 14 718, Albany, New York, on Thursday, October 24, 15 2002, commencing at 10:00 a.m.; before Peggy Alexy, 16 Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public in and for the 17 State of New York. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 2 1 APPEARANCES: GOLDBERG, PERSKY, JENNINGS & WHITE, P.C. 2 1030 Fifth Avenue Pittsburgh, PA 15219-6295 3 BY: AARON J. DeLUCA, ESQ. Attorney for Plaintiffs 4 COHEN & GRIGSBY 5 11 Stanwix Street, 15th Floor Pittsburgh, PA 15222-1319 6 BY: KEVIN C. HARKINS, ESQ. Attorney for Defendant FMSI 7 8 DICKINSON, WRIGHT, PLLC 500 Woodward Avenue, Suite 4000 9 Detroit, Michigan 48226-3425 BY: ROBERT S. KRAUSE, ESQ. 10 Attorney for Defendants Ford, GM, Daimler Chrysler 11 12 LAVIN, COLEMAN, O'NEIL, RICCI, FINARELLI & GRAY 13 Suite 1000, 510 Walnut Street Penn Mutual Tower 14 Philadelphia, PA 19106 BY: CHRISTINE 0. BOYD, ESQ. 15 Attorney for Defendant General Motors Corporation 16 17 RILEY, McNULTY, HEWITT & SWEITZER, P.C. 18 650 Washington Road, Suite 300 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15228 19 BY: JEFFREY J. LEIBECK, ESQ. Attorney for Defendants N.V. 20 Automotive Supply, Inc. and Potomac Creek Auto Parts, Inc. 21 22 DICKIE, McCAMEY & CHILCOTE Two PPG Place 23 Pittsburgh, PA 15222-5402 BY: HUNTER A. McGEARY, JR., ESQ. 24 Attorney for Defendants Bong-Warner, n 7\ 1- n "" r ..J . J.. L' l 1, P.O. Box 124S9 Albany, NY 12212-24S9 Albany (SIB) 43B-O 126 Troy (SIB) 2B3-S064 Schenectady (SIB) 3SS-9216 Clifton Park (SIB) 3B3-1241 Fax (SIB) 446-0SB2 3 1 SMITH, ABBOT, LLP 3 New York Plaza 2 New York, New York 10004 BY: PETER POLCHINSKI, ESQ. 3 Attorneys for Defendant Pneumo Abex 4 5 DRINKER, BIDDLE & SHANLEY, LLP 500 Campus Drive 6 Florham Park, NJ 07932-1047 BY: WILLIAM J. MENDRZYCKI, ESQ. 7 Attorney for Defendant Honeywell 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 4 0 1 0 ~. :l; 0 MR. PIAZZA: My name is Thomas 1 0 : 0 1 0 7 :2: 0 Piazza. I reside in Albany, New York. I 1 0 : 0 1 0 9 :3:: '' :41)0 : 0 1 l l ~ '-' am a video specialist with Maggard Associates whose principal place of 1 0 : 0 1 1 J :SJ C ,,1 0 0 1 1 :6J L' business is Albany, New York. I will be the operator of the audio video equipment 1 0 0 1 1 G :7') (! for the deposition of Edward Drislane l 0 0 1 1 8 :8:) 0 being videotaped 189 Wolf Road, Albany, 1 0 : 0 1 : L 2 :9:: 0 New York. 1 0 : 0 1 2 41:0) 0 Caption of the case is in the Court 0 : () 1 2 s1:1u >j ~ of Common Pleas of Washington County, :....Q : 0 1 3 o1:2o c Pennsylvania, the Estate of Boyd l u : 0 l 3 11:3) 0 Cutright, Plaintiffs, versus A-Best 1 0 : 8 ~ ' J1:4J () Products Company, et al, Defendants. l 0 : 0 1 J s1:5J 0 This videotape is being taken on behalf 1 0 : 0 l 3 91:6J 0 of the Plaintiff. The date is October 1 0 : 0 j 4 11:7:: 0 0 : 01 4 o.1:8o ., u 24th, and the time is now approximately 10:04 . 0 : 0 1 4 s1:9J (] Counsel will now introduce 1 0 0 1 4 :2:w 0 themselves, please. 1 () 0 1 4 s2:1~: 0 MR. DeLUCA: My name is Aaron 1 0 : 0 1 : 5 c2:2) u DeLuca, and I represent the family of 1 0 0 1 : 5 42:3:: 0 Boyd Cutright. : 0 L : 0 c2:4o 1 MR. HARKINS: My name is Kevin P.O. Box 12459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 _____________________________________ ___- -~- ~---- Fax (518) 446-0582 ,. 5 0 0 0 :L 0 Harkins, I represent Friction Materials l 0 : 0 ? 0 1 :2() v Standards Institute. :3!~ 0 : 0 2 03 0 MR. KRAUSE: My name is Robert l 0 : 0 ) 0 5 :4-, 0 1 0 0 z 0 -, :5) 0 Krause. I represent Ford, General Motors, and Daimler Chrysler. 10: 0 0 9 :6J (J MR. LEIBECK: I am Jeff Leibeck. I 1 0 0 2 1 3 :7:: Cl am here on behalf of N. V. Auto Supply, J 0 0 2 1 5 :So 0 Inc. and Potomac Creek Auto Parts, Inc. 1 0 : 0 2 1 H :~ 0 MR. McGEARY: My name is Hunter 0 : 0 2 2 o1:0l ,_ McGeary. I am here on behalf of l 0 : 0 ,, :::1:1-J u Bong-Warner, Pneumo-Abex, Flintkote and L.Q : 0 ~ L 41:2-J !j B.F. Goodrich. 1 0 : I) c ? s1:3J 0 MR. PIAZZA: The court reporter will 10 :0 3 91:4J 0 now introduce herself and swear in the l 0 : 0 ? 4 11:5J 0 witness, please. 0 : 0 2 : 4 11:6! 0 THE REPORTER: My name is Peggy 0 : I) 7 4 l1:7o u Alexy. I am here for Alliance Court 1 0 : 0 0 ~ 4 11:8o 0 Reporting. Mr. Drislane, would you raise 1 0 : 0 2 4 11:9J 0 your right hand. 10 : 0 ,_ --- 4 12:Cb 1 EDWARD W. DRISLANE, 1 0 : 0 -, 4 12:1c 0 having been first duly sworn by the Notary Public, 1 0 : 0 ~ 4 12:2o IJ was examined and testified as follows: 1 0 0 ~ 4 :2:3:: 0 DIRECT EXAMINATION 24 P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 6 o 2 4 1 :ll ,J BY MR. DeLUCA: 1 0 : 0 2 4 3 :2o u Q Good morning, Mr. Drislane. :i 0 : 0 .j 5 ,}_, A Good morning. 1 0 0 ~ 4 5 :4(1 Q Would you state your full name for the 1 0 0 2 4 8 ;Ji record, please? 1 0 : 0 2 4 8 :6: 0 A Edward W. Drislane. 10 : 0 5 2 :7() ] Q Mr. Drislane, how old are you today? 0 : 0 2 ~ 4 :8:J C ~ A Seventy-nine. 1 0 : 0 2 5 4 :9J 0 Q Sir, I introduced myself earlier. I am 1 0 : 0 3 0 1l:Oo 0 Aaron DeLuca and I represent the plaintiff in this l 0 : 0 3 : 0 sl:l; 0 action. Do you understand that? L.Q : 0 3 : 0 9l:2u 0 A Yes. J 0 : 0 3 : 0 9l:3J v Q And, sir, do you understand that the ~ 0 : 0 3 1 3l:4o 0 Friction Materials Standards Institute is a 1 0 J 3 1 sl:SJ 0 defendant in this action? J 0 0 -' : 1 5l:fu 0 l 0 : 0 3 : l d:7) 0 A Yes. Q Okay. And you are appearing today to 1 0 : 0 3 1 sl:& 0 give testimony in response to a subpoena that I 0 : 03 ol:9J 0 had issued; correct? 1 0 : 0 3 : L z2:0o 0 A Yes. l 0 : 0 3 : ~ z2:1J 0 Q The first thing I would like to do is I 1 0 0 3 2 s2:2o 0 would like to mark the Notice of Deposition as 1 0 0 3 3 :2:3:: 0 Plaintiff's Exhibit 1. 0 3 : 3 Q:4o 0 ---------- Mr. Drislane, I understand that you have P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 7 :1o() 5 3 7 ,~, 1 0 : 0 3 4 5 :2u 0 1 0 : 0 3 : <1 6 :3:J 0 1 0 : 0 3 : 3 0 :41: 0 1 0 : 0 3 5 L :SJ CJ 1 0 : 0 3 5 4 :6J c : 0 : 0 4 c 1 :71) 0 l 0 : 0 4 0 1 :8J 0 1 0 0 4 0 5 :9) () 1 0 : 0 4 0 91:01 u 1 0 : 0 4 1 :1:1J 0 :1:2,l...Q : 0 4 1 (I 1 0 : 0 4 1 s1:3J c, o1:4o0 : 0 4 c, ,_, ~ l 0 04 41:5J () ,,1 0 : 0 : ~ d:6l 0 1 0 0 4 3 o1:7,J 0 l 0 : 0 4 3 :1:8J 0 J 0 0 4 3 31:9: 0 0 : 0 4 3 32:0: ,, J 0 : 0 4 4 s2:1J 0 1 0 : 0 4 4 t2:2o 0 1 0 : 0 4 4 62:3:: 0 0 4 4 t2:4o 0 testified at least twice; correct? Do you recall giving a deposition back in 1982? A I don't recall that one, no. I recall one. Q Do you recall giving a deposition in July of 1999? A Yes. Q I can show you if you like the deposition which I believe that you gave back in 1982 while you were serving -- A Okay, if I was serving. Q as the Executive Director of the FMSI. Do you want to take a look at that and just tell me if you remember that? A I don't specifically remember it, but there was some deposition taken sometime and I in my office. Q Throughout the course of this deposition I may refer to the Friction Materials Standards Institute or the FMSI or the Institute, and you understand that I am talking about the same thing; right? A Yes. Q Other than those two instances where you P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212~2459 Albany (SIB) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (SIB) 355~9216 Clifton Park (SIB) 383~ 1241 Fax (SIB) 446~0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 8 () 4 5 0 :1: D 1 0 : 0 4 5 4 :2c' J l 0 : 0 4 ~ 4 :31 0 1 0 : 0 5 0 (l :41) 0 1 D : 0 = 0 ~ :5) n 1 0 : 0 5 0 9 :6J 0 :7u1 0 : 0 ,c> : 1 ~ 0 1 0 0 J : 1 6 :8: 0 10 05 0 :9J 0 0 : 0 5 2 ;l:Cb Cl 0 : 0 5 2 41:1u c> ~ L..Q : 0 5 2 s1:2o ,. v 1 0 : 0 c. 2 s1:3J 0 10 Cl c ' 3 o1:4o 0 1 0 : 0 ,c> 3 11:51 0 l 0 : 0 s : 3 :<1:6) 0 l 0 : 0 -' : 3 71:7, 0 J i) : 0 :- 4 11:8o 0 1 0 : 0 5 4 3l:9J u ~ 0 : 0 5 4 :Q:()J l) 10 : 05 ,,1 0 : 0 4 t2:1o 0 4 s2:2o n l 0 : 0 ~) : " rQ:3:c 0 : 0 2 : 5 22:4o v gave testimony, have you ever been deposed in any other cases? A No. Q I'm sure you remember the process, but I would like to give you some instructions for today if I could. The first is that I will do my best to ask a question that's clear and understandable. But sometimes my questions just don't come out the way I'd like, and if you don't understand a question that I have asked, please let me know and I will be happy to repeat or rephrase it for you, okay? A Yes. Yes. Q Additionally, as you know, we have a court reporter here who is taking down everything that is said, and it is very important that only one of us speak at a time because she can't take down two people at the same time, all right? A Yes. Q So it is very important that I let you finish your answer before I ask my next question, and it is important for you to let me finish my question before you begin to answer, do you understand that? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 9 J 5 : ~l 1 :lc' 0 1 0 : 0 c' : s 4 :2o () ::X1 0 : 0 6 0 ~ 0 1 0 : 0 6 (I 5 :4c! CJ 1 0 : 0 6 0 7 :51 0 1 0 : 0 6 0 9 :6:1 Cl 1 0 : 0 6 : 1 3 :7: () 1 0 : 0 6 1 5 :BcJ 0 1 0 : 0 6 1 6 :9) u 10: v6 sl:D-J 0 ~ 1 0 : 0 6 : n ol:ll 0 J .J:t : 0 6 2 ~1:2; 0 0 : 0 6 ? 21:3J 0 1 0 : 0 E 2 6l:4J 0 1 0 : 0 6 3 cl:SJ 0 1 0 : 0 6 : 3 ~1:6J 0 1 0 : 0 6 : 3 3l:7c 0 0 : 0 6 : 3 7l:8J ,, 1 0 : 0 6 : 3 '1:9:1 (1 1 0 : 0 6 : 3 92:0:; 0 0 : 0 6 : 4 l2:lo v 1 0 0 6 4 22o 0 l 0 0 6 4 32:3J 0 0 6 4 32:4o 0 A Yes. Q I understand that you may need to take some breaks today, which is fine. Any time you need to take a break, please let us know and we will be happy to accommodate you. Although I would ask that we not take a bceak when a question is pending, would that be fair? A Yes. Q Are you on any type of medication today that would affect your ability to understand and answer my questions? A No. Q Are you on any type of medication that you believe may impair your memory? A No. Q May I ask, Mr. Drislane, what if anything you have done to prepare for this deposition today? A I have talked to counsel here. Q And you have just pointed to Mr. Harkins? A Yes, Mr. Harkins. Q Have you talked to anyone else? A No. Q Did you review any documents with P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 10 0 6 1 6 :1:, u :2ul 0 0 -, iJ 5 () ::Xl 0 0 7 0 .l::. CJ 10~ 0 "I l :4c l) l c 0 7 ~ G :5:, 0 :6l 0 : 0 'I 1 2 ') '0 0' ,, :7r, : ~ :8ul 0 0 "I 2 4 u -1 0 0 7 8 :9:1 0 1 0 0 7 '- r1:0 0 ~ 0 : 0 I -' o1:1u -, 1 ..Q. : 0 7 3 o1:2n 0 'l 0 0 7 1l:3J (l l 0 0 7 3 s1:4J - 0 : 0 7 ? 71:5J () 1 0 : 0 7 3 91:6: (I l 0 0 7 4 11:7) u 1 0 0 7 4 s1:8J 0 l 0 0 7 <j s1:9! D ,, l 0:0 4 s2:0J () 0~ 0 ! 4 s2:1o I l 0 0 5 42:2o 0 1 0 0 7 5 42:3J 0 0 H ' o2:4o u Mr. Harkins pertaining to the FMSI? A Yes. Q What types of documents did you look at? A Memorandum that I -- I wrote to either people on the Asbestos Study Committee or members of the Institute relative to the asbestos situation. Q Were those from the 1970s? A Yes. Q Were there any other documents that you reviewed? A No. Q Do you have any documents pertaining to your employment with the FMSI in your possession, like at your house or somewhere else? A No. Q When you retired from the Institute in June of 1989, did you leave everything there, so to speak? A Yes. Q Have you worked anywhere since June of 1989? A Yes. Q What have you done since then? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 11 0 8 0 l :1: 0 A I worked for the United States Government 1 0 : 0 8 ,, J :2c on their census in 1990. 1 0 : 0 8 0 9 :], 0 Q Okay. Anything else? 1 0 : () 8 " l :4!' 0 :Sl 0 : 0 8 1 5 ') A I worked for my brother's tax service in Albany for two or three winters. 1 0 : 0 8 1 6 ,6_, 0 Q Do you presently serve as a consultant to 1 0 : 0 8 " D :7r: () 1 0 : 0 8 2 2 :8(1 () the FMSI? A No. 1 0 : 0 8 : " 4 : ~t; 0 Q Are you being paid for your time today? 1 0 : 0 8 2 d,Q, '~ A No. 0: 08 ~ :2 s1:1:J " Q Have you had a chance recently to review L.Q : J 8 3 o1:2:J 0 the testimony you gave back in July of 1999? 1 0 : 0 8 3 s1:3.J 0 A No. 1 0 : 0 8 : 3 91:4: 0 Q Have you spoken to Mr. Laycock, your 1 0 : 0 8 4 11:So 0 successor, recently? l 0 : 0 8 4 31:6) Ci A Not recently, no. 1 0 : 0 8 4 s1:71 () Q I would like to begin by asking you to l 0 : 0 8 5 o1:8J 0 outline your education for me. I understand that l 0 : 0 9 0 o1:9J 0 you have multiple college degrees. Can you tell 1 0 0 9 : 0 Q,Oo 0 me what degrees you have and where you got them? 1 0 0 9 : () ::2:1J 0 A I have a bachelor of industrial 10 : 0 (1 Q:2:J 0 engineering from RPI, that's Rensselaer 1 0 0 9 : 1 :t2:3J ') Polytechnic. I have a bachelor of mechanical 0 9 ~ ::2:40 0 engineer from Rensselaer Polytechnic. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 ---------- And I have Albany (5 18) 438-0 126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 12 09 1 0 : D 9 ,, R :2[cc ('I 1 0 : 0 g 3 G :3:1 0 A1 D : () 9 : 3 j I) 1 0 : 0 9 : :< -' :5:' I) "'~ 0 : 0 9 7 :6< '" 10 : D :8u1 () : () 9 4 C, D l 0 : 0 9 : 4 6 :9:) 0 D : 0 9 : 4 2.1:0:' v J D : lj 9 ~ o1:1,, 0 1 -Q : 0 9 5 41:2u 0 1 0 : 0 9 : 5 ~1:3) 0 1 0 : l 0 0 71:5J G 1 0 : 1 0 0 91:6J 0 l 0 : l 0 0 91: 7~J 0 1 0 : 1 () : 1 11:& () ~ 0 : l c : 1 :11: 9:J 0 1 0 : 1 0 : ~ t2:0:l 0 1 0 : l 0 : 1 s2:1> (1 1 o 1 u : 1 s2:2o u 1 0 : 0 : ;:' z2:3c 0 : 1 () : ::' 42:40 :J a MBA in accounting from Siena College. Q I understand Rensselaer is a very good engineering school; is that right? A Yes. Q Okay. In what years did you get your engineering degrees from Rensselaer? A 1946, 1947. Q And do you remember when you obtained your MBA? A 1964. Q Did you attend Rensselaer right out of high school? A Yes. Q Upon your graduation in 1947, did you secure employment anywhere? A Yes. Q Where did you go to work? A Western Electric Company, Kearny, K-E-A-R-N-Y, Kearny, New Jersey. Q How long did you work for Western Electric? A One year. Q What did you do there? A Work service engineering. P,O, Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 13 : l 0 ' 8 :1( 'J l 0 : 1 J .3 1 :2(, --~ l 0 : 1 0 3 3 :3, l) 1 8 1 0 3 3 :4u I) 1 0 1 0 : 3 5 :5:1 0 l 0 : - 0 : 3 7 :EX: 0 1 0 : 1 0 4 j :7u 0 :8'- 0 : 1 ,_, 4 ~\ ,, 1 0 : l 0 4 5 :9-J 0 1 0 : 1 0 5 c1:0J (I 1 0 : 1 0 5 :-1:1J 0 J .Q : 1 1 0 o1:2J () 1 0 : l 1 0 o1:3J 0 l 0 : 1 l 0 71:4o C) 1 0 : 1 l 0 i1:5J G 1 0 : 1 1 1 11:6! () 1 0 : 1 - ~ 31:7'J 0 1 0 : 1 1 1 61:8J 0 10 : ~ 1: - ~ G1:9) () 0 : 1 1 c2:0J !J 0 : 1 1 .3 12:1o c 0 : 1 1 3 Q:2o u 1 0 : 1 1 3 92:3o () 1~ 4 l2:4J 0 ------------ Q Did they manufacture a product at the Kearny plant? A Yes. Yes. Q What did they make? A Manufactured cable. Q And then following that one year employment, did you go to work somewhere else? A Yes. Q Where was that? A Bendix Friction Materials Division. Q Where was that located? A Green Island, New York . Q How long did you work for Bendix? A About 17 years. Q And do you recall the year you left Bendix? A I can't give it to you exactly, no. It was about 1966, I believe. 1965, maybe. '65 or I 66 Q What positions did you hold with Bendix? A I was a test engineer and later a cerametallics chief engineer, cerametallics product that's ceramic metallic friction products. Q And throughout the course of your P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 14 1l :114 ,) 01 ~ 0 : 1 1 4 8 :2,, I) 1l 8 : ~ 10 l 1 = ::Y: () ,, ~ :41 0 1 0 1 :2 0 0 :5: 0 - 0 : 1 2 l 3 :6> 'J 1 0 : 1 ;' l 5 :711 0 1 0 : l 2 1 6 :8.1 0 10 : 1 2 :9~ Cl '0 : l 2 : ;' o1:C:b -, ci 1 0 : l 2 : 2 z1:11) 0 L..Q : l 2 : 2 41:211 0 1 u : l r : 2 61:3J 0 l 0 : 1 r : r 6l:4J 0 l 0 : 1 2 2 s1:5' 0 1r 0 : 2 3 11:6) u l 0 : 1 2 3 51:7'1 G l 0 : 1 2 -, -;1:8) () 10 : l 4 ~1:9J 0 r 0:1 4 :2:0J lJ 1 0 : 1 2 4 :2:1J 0 10: 1L l 0 : 1 ;: " P2:2o 0 5 o2:3J 0 ~ 42:4o c _ ' _ _ _,,, _ _ _< employment with Bendix, did you just work at that one facility, or did you move around a little bit? A One facility. Q And as a test engineer and as a cerametallic engineer, did you have the occasion to work on the formulation of friction materials, including brakes? A Yes. Q Did they manufacture friction materials at this plant that you worked at? A Yes. Q Did they manufacture asbestos containing brakes at that plant? A Yes. Q And did they make non-asbestos brakes at that plant during that time frame from '48 to '66? A I don't understand the question to a degree because I already told you I was a cerametallics engineering. That was cerametallics. That was non-asbestos brakes. Q So the answer would be that they made both asbestos and non-asbestos brakes at this plant between '48 and '66; is that right? A That is correct. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 15 :11 ~ : ~~. 1 () Q Did you ever have the occasion to work 1 0 : 3~ : 0 :2: 0 with a gentleman by the name of Ernie Martin? :3:1 0 : 1 3 : 'J 7 () A Yes. Q Who was Ernie Martin? A Purchasing agent at the Bendix plant. 1 0 1 3 1 1 :6:' 0 Q The same plant that you worked at? 7:1 0 . ~ 3 : 1 .3 ; I) A Yes. Q And did you know him personally? ~ 0 : 1 3 1 G :9' 8 A On business, yes. 1 o : 1 3 1 s1:0:' o Q And did you interact with him whenever 1 0 : 1 3 2 61:1u o you needed to make purchases of raw materials? L.O.. : 1 3 : 3 o1:2iJ o MR. MENDRZYCKI: Objection, form. 1 0 : 1 3 3 11:~ D THE WITNESS: No. Can you state your question again, please? 10 13 331:5;o BY MR. DeLUCA: 1 0 1 3 3 s1:6; 0 Q Yes, sir. I wanted to know if you had 1 0 : 1 3 : ,.3 91:7J 0 any interaction with him when you needed to do 1 0 : 1 3 4 31:8J () purchasing? 0 : 1 3 4 Jl:9J ( MR. MENDRZYCKI: Same objection. 1 0 : 1 3 : 4 s2:0:! () THE WITNESS: If I wanted to 1 0 : l 3 : 1 :2:1~ 0 purchase pencils or something, but I 0 : 1 3 5 :2:2u u wasn't involved in purchasing of "1 0 1 3 22:3J 0 24 materials for the friction materials. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 16 13: ~, 4 :1t' o BY MR. DeLUCA: 1 0 ] 3 : 5 4 :2c () Q Okay. Now following your employment with ::11 0 3~ co ., 0 0 : l 4 J ., :4'.' " l 0 l 4 1 l :5:' 0 Bendix, where did you go to work? A For an outfit called C. L. Marvin, M-A-R-V-I-N, Marvin, Schenectady. 1 0 l 4 1 6 ,6:, lj Q And what type of business was that? 1 0 4~ 1 8 :7:_ 0 A Certified public accountants. l 0 : 1 4 -- 0 :So 0 1 0 : l 4 "l D :9:J 0 Q It seems that you made a career change at that point? 1 0 : 1 4 3 c1:0"' 0 A That is correct. l 0 : 1 4 3 31:11 D Q What was the reason for that? 1-Q : L 4 3 91:2: A Hell, I don't know. Looking for my " 0 : l 4 4 s1:3J v future. 1 0 : l 4 4 s1:4o 0 Q And may I assume that at some point prior 1 Cl : l 4 4 s1:5J (J to working as a CPA, that's when you secured your 1 0 : 4 5 ?1:6J () ~ business degree? l 0 : l 4 5 41:7rJ 'J A Before that. J 0 : l 4 c. 41:8J 0 Q Okay. So you got two engineering 1 0 : l :-. : 0 c1: 9:J 0 degrees, you worked as an engineer for a period of J 0 : l 5 : 0 :<2:0:: 0 years, then you went back to school to get a MBA? J0: 1s ,,1 0 1 0 72:1u c () CJ2:2o 0 A I went to night school for seven years. Q Okay. Then following that once you got I 0 l :_, 1 12:3J 0 your MBA, that's when you made the decision to "1 1 Q:4o J switch professions, so to speak? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 17 1 s 1 8 :1l Cl A Yes. 1 () : 1 5 l R :2o ,, Q And how long did you work for C. L. :3::1 0 1 c ,' ~ :) u Marvin? 10 1 c J ~ ,., :4u 0 A About six months. 1 :5.-1 0 : 5 ) ,_ !I Q And at that point did you go on to some ~ 0 : 15 20 ,6_, C other accounting firm? 1 0 : 1 5 ? 6 :7c. I) A Yes. 10 1s : :&: () Q And who is that? 1 0 1 5 _'\ 0 :9-- 0 A Haskins and Sells (phonetic) J 0 : 1 5 3 71:0:> !) Q Where were they located? 1 0 : 1 c ,) 3 91:11 0 A New York City. l_Q_ : ;_ 5 : 3 912 0 Q And how long did you work for them? 11 () : ::, 4 11:3:! .J A Well, three or four years. I am not 0 : 1 5 4 6l:4n c; sure. Three or four years. 1 0 : 1 = 4 s1:5, 1 0 : 1 5 : s o1:6J 0 Q Does that take us up to the point when you went to work for the Friction Materials 1 0 : 1 5 = 41:71 0 ; 0 : 1 6 0 o1:8l 0 Standards Institute? A Yes. 1 0 : 1 G 0 c1:9J 0 Q And that was sometime in 1970; correct? l 0 : ~ 6 : 0 32:0J 0 A I'm not sure on that. It was '70 or '71. 1 0 : 1 6 0 -i2:1o 0 Q How is it that you carne to be employed by 1 0 : 1 6 1 12:2o () the Friction Materials Standards Institute? 1 0 l 6 1 :<2:3:1 lj A Someone called me from the Institute and 1 6 1 62:40 J asked whether I would be interested in the P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 - - - - - - - - - - - - --------------------~--------------------- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 18 1 6 " 0 :1l ~ " 0 : 1 E 7 0 :2o C) 10 l6 0~ 0 ~ <- :}~) 10 16 6 :4c 0 ~ 0 : 1 b 0 ti :5': 0 1 0 : l 6 : 8 :Ei: 0 1 0 : l 6 : 3 0 :7: 0 l 0 : 1 6 3 3 :Be: ') ~ 0 : 1 6 4 1 :9:: 0 1 0 : 1 6 4 61:01 0 1 0 : -- 6 4 61:1: 0 l..Q : l 6 4 s1:2o ~ "0 : 1 6 o1:3! C 1 J : 1 6 ~. 41:40 () 1 0 : : 7 () o1:S; 0 0: 1 7 10 : 17 CJ 31:61 0 0 71:7<) ,, 1 0 1 7 0 11:8J 0 l 0 : 1 7 1 11:9:1 0 1 0 : l 7 1 62:0! [) 1 0 : 1 l s2:1J 0 1 0 : 1 -, 1 s2:2o 0 1 0 : 1 I - ::2:3J 0 l 7 ? 22:40 0 position. Q Who was that someone, do you remember? A Yes. Name is Kelly, Jack Kelly. Q Was he employed by Bendix? A At one time he was. Q Is that how you met him? A I knew him at Bendix, yes. Q And how is it, if you know, that Mr. Kelly called upon you to go work for the Institute? A I have no idea. Are you asking how do I know why he called me? I don't know. I mean, what made him call, how would I know that? Q And did he offer you the job? A No. He asked whether I was interested in the job, and I thought about it for a while and I said yes. Q And that that job would allow you to draw upon both your degrees in engineering as well as your business background; right? A Yes. Q And when you took the job, did you relocate? A No. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 19 l 7 : ., 1 :1: 0 1 0 : 1 7 0 6 :211 1 0 : 1 7 0 0 ::X, 0 1 n v : 17 3 c :4r: 0 1 0 : 1 7 3 l :5::: 0 1 0 : 1 7 3 5 :&' 0 1" 0 : 7 3 9 :7[1 v 1 0 : 1 7 " 1 :So 0 '1 0 1 7 4 :91 0 1 0 1 ! 4 s1:0l 0 10 : 7 5 o1:lo v J .!l, : l ') 5 o1:2u u 1 0 : 1 8 0 cl:3J (! 1 0 : 1 8 0 o1:4o () l 0 : 1 8 0 11:5:1 0 " 0 : 1 8 0 :o1:6J c 1 0 : 1 8 0 91:7'; 0 l 0 : 1 8 0 91:8J 0 1 0 : 1 8 0 Y1:9J () 1 0 : 1 8 1 s2:01 0 1 0 : 1 f.< 2 c:2:1o 0 1 0 : 1 8 ., o2:2o 0 l 0 : 1 8 : n i2::X: 0 : l 8 : ~ t2:4o 0 Q Where was the Institute located at that time? A Lexington Avenue in New York City. Q And at that point when you went to work for the Institute, did you have the opportunity to work with a Harriet Duschek? A Yes, she was my predecessor. Q Was there a period of time where you and Miss Duschek worked at the Institute together where she was teaching you the job, so to speak? A Yes. Q How long was that period, do you know? A About six months. Q And once she retired and you were there as the Secretary and Executive Director, did you continue to work out of that Lexington Avenue address? A Yes. Q At some point did you relocate the Institute to New Jersey? A Yes. Q When was that, do you remember? A I would say either '72 or '73, '72 or I 73 P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 20 1 8 2 E :1J 0 'l 0 1 8 3 :2c 0 0 : 1 8 3 s ::1 ,, ~ 1 0 1 8 j 7 :4o (] 1 0 1 8 3 9 :5::1 0 1 0 : l 8 3 9 :& 0 '1 0 : 1 8 4 :7rc c) ~ 0 : 1 8 5 0 :&J c 1 0 : 1 8 5 0 :~1 0 1 0 : l 9 0 11:0:1 0 1 0 : :i 9 0 91:1 0 1...Q : 1 9 1 11:2u c 1 0 1 9 l s1:3:J 0 1 0 1 9 1 t1:41J 0 1 0 : ~ 9 : 2 21:51 0 1 0 : 1 9 : L s1:6J 0 ~ 0 : 1 9 3 o1:7rJ 0 1 0 : 1 9 3 s1:8J 0 1 0 : 1 9 3 91:~J 0 1 0 : 1 9 : 4 s2:0o 0 t2:1o~ 0 : 1 9 4 r,_l, 0 : 1 9 4 22:2o ,, "1 0 1 9 :2:3J 0 2 0 : (_) :2:4J 0 Q And that's where the Institute remained until your retirement? A Correct. Q In 1989? A Yes. Q Could you explain to the members of the jury what the FMSI is and what the purpose of the FMSI is? A Well, the FMSI is the Friction Materials Standards Institute. It's a big name for a small company. Basically they would try to gather product information on what brakes and clutch facings were used on different cars and trucks, and pass that information on to all the members. This was to help. This was a sales oriented trade association, sales oriented trade association. All the delegates were generally sales oriented. The idea was to get so the -- it fostered competition in that the -- all these newcomers to the business could have the same product information that the old timers had generated. So it was a means of making sure that no matter who you brought your linings from that the thing would fit. It had nothing to do with the product P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 21 2 o : o J :lo o 1 0 : 2 0 : 0 ~) :2c 0 l 0 : 2 c : 1 1 :3::1 c 1 0 : 2 0 : '- ~ :4o 0 1 0 : "- 0 : 1 8 :5:: 0 1 0 : 0 0 1 8 :fr 0 l 0 : 0 0 2 6 :7~_-, 0 1 8 : "- 0 : 3 1 ,8, 0 1 0 : ~ 0 : 3 3 :9:J 0 l o : 2 o 3 sl:OJ o 1 0 : 2 0 4 11:1(1 c 1 -'l : 2 o 4 sl:2r, o 1 o : 2 o 4 sl:}: o 1 0 : 2 0 4 6l:4o v 1 0 : 2 0 4 sl:SJ 0 1 0 : 2 0 5 ol:fr, 0 1 0 : 2 0 : 5 41:7J 0 10 : ~ 1l:8o ~ 1 0 : 2 1 0 11:9:J 0 1 0 : 2 1 0 32:0:! 0 0 : 2 1 " 72:lo " 1 0 : 2 ~ 0 s2:2o () 1 0 : 2 1 1 Q:3J 0 2 1 1 t2:4o 0 quality or anything like that. That's it. Q And do you have an understanding as to how long the FMSI had been in existence when you took over? A Yes. Q And what is your understanding as to when the FMSI started? A Going back before me. Let's see, well they were in existence, I would say, in 1948, which is when I started with Bendix. They were in existence then. I can't tell you what. Q What happened before then? A What happened before that, and I might have some inklings of what happened but Q Is it your understanding that there was predecessor organization to the FMSI and that was called the Brake Lining Manufacturers Association? A Yes. Q And is it your understanding that that organization had dated back to the 1930s? A That most likely, yes. Q Okay. In fact, you at one point in your career prepared a history of the Institute, and I know that that was covered with you in your P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 22 t 2 1 : 2 0 :1J 0 :2o'~ 1 : 2 2 0 ~ 1 : 2 4 :3:1 0 -- 1 2 6 :4o 0 --. 1 3 0 :5:1 c 10 ~ 3 1 :6:1 0 3 3 :7o 0 '- l 3 7 :8:l 0 1L 3 7 :91 0 : 2 1 4 31:01 0 1L 4 s1:1o 0 t o o1:2o o " ' ' : 2 2 : 0 11: 3:; 0 2 2 o s1:4o o : 2 2 : 0 91:60 0 : 2 2 : 1 11:70 0 2 2 : 1 31:8:J 0 :: 2 : 1 s1:9J o : 2 2 : 1 62:01 0 : 2 2 : 1 a2:1o o 2 2 : 2 o2:2o 0 =2 : 2 o2:3J 0 t 22:40: L0 L0 : 2 0 deposition in 1999, but that you had had certain documents available to you when you prepared that history that showed that the Brake Lining Manufacturers Association dated back at least into the '30s, as I said? A Most likely. Q Okay. And you are also aware, are you not, sir, that the Brake Lining Manufacturers Association as well as several of its members were convicted in Federal Court in New York at about that 1947, 1948 time period; are you not? A If that's -- something happened, whether they were convicted in Federal Court, I don't know that. Something happened. They got -- there was some kind of charges. Whether they -- whether they pleaded or whatever they did, or whether they were convicted, I don't know for sure. But they were broken up as a result of that. It was a voluntarily break up. Q There was some allegations of price fixing? A That's what I would think. Q And is it your understanding that that was the impetus to change the name of the P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 23 1 o " ') 2 R :2c u 3 1 :4'' I] l 0 : : ' :S n 1 0 : ,-) 2 ~' l ,(X, Q =1 0 : 1 4 5 :7,, I] 1 0 ,_ 4 ~ :f}, 0 :9:1 0 :) iJ 1 0 : 2 3 : c' sl:lu n 1 0 : 2 3 l 31:3 0 ~ o : 2 3 1 6l:4o 2 1 o 2 3 ? ol:SJ o 1 0 : 2 3 : 2 61: 7~ 0 1 0 : 2 3 : 3 ::ol:9J 0 1 0 : 2 3 : ' q2:0:l 0 0 : 2 J 4 62:20 II Institute? A Yes. Q Okay. And as far as you know, the business of the Brake Lining Manufacturers Association was very similar to the FMSI in that that organization, the first one started this Automotive Data Book that is FMSI has built upon? A That's correct. Q Can you give us an idea over the years of the different types of members the FMSI had in terms of categories of memberships as well as some examples, were there different types of members over the years? A Yes. There were three different types. One was a so-called active member. Active member was a United States resident manufacturer of friction materials, be they brake linings or clutch facings. Regional members were members from outside the United States, who were generally brake lining, brake block or clutch facing manufacturers. Then there was a grade called licensee, which was sort of other groups, primarily brake shoe. That's the steel brake shoe manufacturers, but not brake lining. Those were P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 -~-- -~-- -------~------------------------~--------- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 24 ~. 4 : ,., 3 :lc l' the three classes. 1 " .. 4 0 .l :2c 0 :3:1 0 ? 4 0 ~~. 0 Q So active members, licensee members? A Active members, regional members, 10 L4 ., v :4l IJ licensees. 1 0 2 4 0 9 :Sr 0 Q Can you give us an example of who some of 1 0 ;' 4 :trr 0 the active members were of the Institute that you 1 0 4 1 8 :7~ 0 can recall? 1 0 4 ..: 0 :Be 0 A Yeah. Well Johns-Manville was an active ..:9"r0 ~ 4~. 24 member of the Institute when I started. 1 u 2 ~ J J1:0J 0 Raybestos-Manhattan was an active member. I can't 1 0 2 4 :l 71:11 0 remember the regional members. They were longer 1..il., : 2 4 4 31:2: 0 names, Rayqueso Columbionos (phonetic), or u 4~ 5 :c1:3J 0 something like that, foreign names. And licensees 0 : 2 4 5 41:4o v were mostly brake shoe manufacturers. Having 1 0 : 2 ~. 0 11:5J 0 difficulty. 1 0 : 2 5 : 0 11:61 0 Q That's fine. I'm not trying -- 1 0 2 b 0 :;1:7; u A I can't remember. 0 ~ '~ c J1:8l ,,1 0 ~ Cr q1:9J () ,,1 0 2 1 s2:01 0 Q This isn't a test. I was just looking for some background. Among active members, did the FMSI count Bendix? 0~ 2 ~ 1 E2:lo " 0 ~ L5 :: ::2:2J " c2:3:l1 0 ~ ~:) _j I) .., 5 3 o2:4o :J A Bendix was a member, yes. Q And how about Delco Moraine? A Yes, they were a member. Q What about Abex? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 -- - -.------.. -------------------------------------- ---- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 25 ., 5 .< 1 :lr () 1 0 : " s 3 l :2rl ,., ~ ,, 5 :' s :31 u 1 0 : ~ ~' :4rl () 1 0 : ~ 5 : 4 :5: () 1 0 : " 5 ,, 0: ~ 4 1 :6 1) 4 5 :7: u l 0 : 2 5 4 s :81 1~1 1 D : ~ 5 4 s :9:Y 0 1 0 : 2 b 0 11:01 0 1 0 : ~ b : IJ Jl:l: I) l Q : 2 6 0 51:2; ') 0 : 2 6 " 91:3: .. 1 0 : 2 6 1 s1:4<l 0 10 : 26 61:51 C1 1 0 : 6~ : L ol:6: (J 1 0 : 2 6 : , ~1:7: 0 1 0 : ., 6 7 sl:8J (J ~ 0 : 2 E 3 11:9-l 0 1 0 2 6 j Q:()J 0 1 0 2 li 3 :2:1 0 1 0 : ~ 0 3 :2:2J D ~ 0 : 2 6 3 72:3J u 2 6 : 4 12:4o 0 --------- A Yes. Q You had mentioned the first two active members that you mentioned were Johns-Manville and Raybestos-Manhattan; correct? A Yes. Q And they were two of the founding members of the FMSI, were they not, charter members? A I don't know. Q Was Bendix a member of the FMSI when you started with them in 1948? A Yes. Q Sir, do you understand that Johns-Manville and Raybestos-Manhattan have filed for bankruptcy? A JM, yes. I don't know about Raybestos. Raybestos filed for bankruptcy. You tell me. Q I believe that's the case. Do you understand at least as to Johns-Manville that one of the reasons he filed for bankruptcy was in large part due to its asbestos-related liabilities? A Oh, I would think so. Q And do you understand that Johns-Manville was aware of the hazards of asbestos as early as P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (51 8) 438-0 126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 26 the 1930s? 1 0 : :) 6 : 4 6 :2~ C) A No. 1 0 : :2 6 : 4 :J, J Q Do you know what knowledge Johns-Manville 1 0 : ~ 6 4 8 :4CI 0 possessed about the hazards of asbestos? 1 ~ : 6') l 0 26 5 ' :S1 () ,, ) ,E):, () A No. Q At any point in time? :71 0 ,, 6 _, " () 1 0 : 2 6 :) 4 :8' 0 A No. Q Same question for Raybestos, do you know :9'10 : 2 7 0~ v when Raybestos knew that asbestos was hazardous? 31:011 () 7 ~ l' (} A No. 1 0 : 2 7 0 31:11 0 Q Have you heard or have you come to learn ]_.!.)_ : 2 7 0 71:2: 0 that people have alleged that there was a cover up 1 0 : 2 7 1 31:3, J of the hazards of asbestos? 1 o z 7 1 s1:4'J o A No. 10 : 2 Q Sir, have you ever heard of the animal 10 :~ 7 L o1:61 0 experiments which were done by some of the members :1:7:1 0 : ~ '7 ' : ' L () of the FMSI at Saranac Lake here in New York? s1:8J1 0 : 2 -:, : ,_ () A No. s1:9J0 : 2 'i : 2 (', Q If I told you that those animal 10 2 ,) 12:0J u experiments involved exposing mice to asbestos 1 0 : _; Q,l~ (J dust and studying the health affects of that o : 2 7 4 12:2o J exposure, would that refresh your recollection? 1 0 2 7 4 2:3J 0 A No. How can it refresh recollection if I never recalled it? I don't understand. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 ------------------------------------------------ ~-- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 27 1 0 = 8 0 0 :2 () :5_1 0 : 2 8 (1 7 0 :51 0 : ;:' 8 1 3 I I] 1 0 : 2 8 1 5 :6:, 0 1o:2s 18:7:o _o: 8 3o:9Jc 1 0 : ;' 2 j 11:01 1) ] -~ : 2 8 3 31:2 - 10:28 411:6Jo 1 0 : 2 8 1 G1: 7 Cl 1 0 : 2 9 : 0 :'2:0) 0 1 0 : 2 c, 0 92:10 Q 0 : 2 q 1 ~'12:2n " 1 0 2 9 1 c2:3J u 2 g 1 t2:4c 0 Q Are you familiar with Dr. Anthony Lanza? A No. Q If I told you he worked for Metropolitan Life Insurance Company, would that help? A No. Q Now when I asked you about the purpose of the FMSI, you went on to describe what I believed is the provision of information to members about various friction materials, correct, that would be the data in these data books? A Yes. Q And that was the primary purpose of the FMSI; was it not? A Yes. Q Would I be correct though, Mr. Drislane, that sometime in the very early 1970s your job with the FMSI changed in that more and more of your time was being spent on asbestos? A I can't give you a yes or no on that. The main part of my work was still the data book in getting that kind of information. The asbestos thing started about '71, as far as I was concerned. And took up time was still probably, if it was five to ten percent of my time, that was P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0 126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 28 :lu' 9 iJ ~ l) it. It was not the big thing was still getting 1 Cl 2 9 ~ 4 :2<1 (1 out our data book. 1 0 2 9 : ? 6 :3: 0 Q Okay. Let's go off the record, please. 1 0 : 2 9 : 3 0 :4: 0 MR. PIAZZA: The time is now 10:32, 10 : 35 :5 I~J 1 0 : 3 s ,, 4 :6', we will take a pause in the testimony of Mr. Drislane. :7<J1 0 : 3 5 2 6 l_) (A short recess was taken.) 1 0 : 3 ,c, 0 6 :8) C< MR. PIAZZA: The time is now 10:34, 1 0 : 3 ~) 2 H :91 n we will resume the testimony of l 0 3 _c, 3 ol:O: II Mr. Drislane. 1 0 : 3 6 : " sl:L u MR. DeLUCA: Could I ask that the L.Q. : 3 b 6l:2u (l ' last question and answer be read back, 0 : 3 6 ' sl3J u please? sl:4u' 0 : 3 6 ~ ' u (The Reporter read back the 0 : 3 (:,. 2 sl:SJ 0 requested portion.) l 0 : 3 6 :' 'll:6J n MR. HARKINS: I object to a display l 0 : 3 \') 3 11:7D 0 of the document on a screen. This is not l 0 : 3 6 : 3 sl:81 () the way to properly confront a witness 1 0 : 3 b : 3 7l:9J 0 about a prior statement. If you want to 1 0 : 3 G .'< 92:0J I) ask him and then ask him whether 10 : 36 L2:lu 0 something refreshes his recollection or l 0 36 s2:2<J I) whether demonstrating something that is l 0 3 6 4 62:31 0 not consistent. You can't just display a 3 6 : 4 s2:4o u document during testimony until you P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 --------------------------------------------------r__,________________________________________ Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 29 :1c3 6 : 5 IJ C) establish one of those things. For that l 0 : 3 6 ::; -' :2(1 n 1 u : _, 7 0 u ;}i 0 reason, I object to that what has just been displayed to the jury. You have 1 0 : :l 7 0 3 :4c 1) -'1 0 : 7 '- 0 : 3 " s,0 'J :EDc 7 'J 1 0 : 3 "1 0 9 :71) 0 published a document without proper authentication or confrontation. MR. DeLUCA: Anything else? MR. HARKINS: That's all for right 1 o : 3 7 ~ 1 :8n o now, Mr. DeLuca. 10 37 11:9io BY MR. DeLUCA: 31 0 '/ 1 11:0~ 1:) Q Okay. Mr. Drislane, as we established '0 : 3 1 31:1o 2 'l.Q_ : 3 1 61:2o 0 l 0 : 3 I l s1:31 0 earlier, you recall being deposed in July of 1999 in an asbestos case which was filed in California; do you not? 1 0 : 3 7 : ::: o1:4l 0 A Yes. 31 0 : ! L o1:51 (I Q And at that deposition there was a court 0 : 3 "I 2 ?1:6:1 c- reporter present like there is today who is taking '1 0 : 3 61:7 11 (J ~ 1 0 3 ;: s1:81l 0 down the questions and answers that were given; correct? 1 0 : 3 : ,- e1:9J i) A Yes. 0 : 3 -; ::: s2:0l 0 Q And prior to giving that testimony, you 1 0 3 -; 3 o2:1o 0 swore to tell the truth just like you did today; 10 3 10 : 3 7 " :<2:2o u 3 ::;2,3c () did you not? A Yes. 3 7 : 3 ::2:4c (] Q Okay. And I'm going to hand you page 213 P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 -- ---- ""-------------------------1---------------- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 30 3 7 3 9 :1(1 ,__ from that deposition, and ask you to take a look '1 0 : 3 4 :, :2ll 0 1 0 : .3 -, I 4 8 :31 1) at it, and that's the testimony that I have up on the screen here. And my question is relating to 1 0 3 7 5 2 :4c' 0 the amount of time you spent on asbestos in the 1 0 3 8 0 0 :S u early '70s, you just told me that i t was no more 1 0 : 3 8 0 1 ,6_, than five to ten percent of your time, but back in :7111 0 : 3 8 0 ) 1=1 1999 you told that lawyer under oath that when I 1 0 : 3 2 - 1 :81 0 worked at FMSI, I thought I was going to do one 1 0 3 8 1 5 :91 0 thing, all of a sudden I am being turned 80 10 38 21:0 0 percent over to this asbestos thing. Did you give 1 0 : 3 8 ? o1:1r' J that testimony, sir? "__Q, : 3 R :' :>1:2:' ' l iJ 3 8 2 41:3J 0 MR. HARKINS: I object to the form of the question. It wasn't a question. l 0 3 8 j o1:4u 0 It was a very long statement, and then it 1 0 : 3 8 3 11:Sl 0 was followed by a question. 1 0 : 3 8 3 31:6- u THE WITNESS: Am I answering your 0 : 3 8 -' s1:7'J C1 question or what? 1 0 3 8 3 71:8J c BY MR. DeLUCA: 1 0 3 8 i 11:9! 0 Q Yes, you are. 1 0 : 3 8 3 72:0J IJ A I apparently said this. I don't dispute ~ 0 : 3 8 4 12:1) 1) this at all. But if I were to judge right now how 1 0 : 3 8 4 s2:2~ 0 much the time was, ten or 15 percent or five or 1 0 : 3 R 4 a2:3J -~ ten percent, i t is subjective. I don't see how I 3 8 5 22:40 0 can hardly nail that down. One year it might have P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -.......-~-------------------- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 31 "3 8 : 5 :11 () 1 0 : 3 9 : CJ 1 :2c 0 1 0 : 3 9 : 0 3 :}, ,,, l 8 3 9 : 0 5 :4(1 0 l 0 3 9 : 0 7 :51 0 :61 0 : 3 9 : l 3 1J 3l 0 : 9 l 6 :7(1 - 0 : 3 9 1 6 ,&, l 0 : 3 9 1 g ,g, u 1 0 : 3 9 - o1:0J o 1 0 : 3 9 : - ?1:1 u 1-.ll_ : 3 9 : 2 z1:2o J u : 3 9 ? 61:3) c l 0 : 3 9 ,_ 61:41) (1 1 0 : 3 9 3 o1:5J 0 1 0 : 3 9 : 3 31:6l 0 l 0 : 3 9 : 3 71:7; 0 1 0 : 3 9 3 91:f3n 0 1 0 : 3 9 4 31:9! c, 1 0 3 9 : 4 s2:0J 0 1 0 3 9 : 4 t2:1J () 1 0 3 9 : 5 :2:2; u 0 : 4 u : 0 o2:3c o : 4 0 0 12:40 0 been ten percent. One year it might have been at the beginning when they threw all those committees at me, it could have been 80 percent. It couldn't have been 80 percent of the total time I spent for the year, but for a week I could be three days on the thing. It could be 60 percent for a short period of time. Q Sir, you agree with there is a tremendous difference between five and ten percent of your time and 80 percent of your time? A I agree. Q And that's what you told this lawyer here in 1999; right? A That was to the best of my memory at that time. You got to remember, I am 79 years old. I was 75 at that particular time. It was all this stuff had happened 25 and 30 years before, and you are expecting me to remember from each different time I get asked a question. I don't have copies of those things. Q Sir, would you think that your memory would be better then than it is today? A It is probably better then than -- I don't I can't say. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 32 4 0 u l :lc 0 Q Okay. In any event, would you agree that :2-1 0 : 4 0 0 ~) (I as your testimony has suggested that when you went ' ::X1 0 : 0 : 0 I () :4L1 (I : 4 0 : 1 1 C_l to work for the Institute, you did think you were going to be doing one thing, and then suddenly 1 0 : 4 0 1 :5> n your work, the focus of your work changed to 1 0 : 4 0 ~ 0 :6~' 0 asbestos? 1 0 : 4 0 1 8 :7'' 0 A Not the focus of the work. That would 1 0 : ~ 0 : -~- 0 :8c >J -1 0 : 4 () :;: :9> C) have been the focus of the work was still gathering the product data that we put in the data 0 : 4 0 ~ sl:O:> ,, books. 10 : 40 dl:lu Q When you went to work for the Institute, J --0.. : 4 () 3 11:2u 0 were you aware that at least some of your time was 1 0 : 4 l 0 ol:3:: 0 going to be spent in regard to asbestos-related 1 0 : 4 1 0 31:41 0 issues? 3l:5J~ 0 : 4 1 8 'J A No. 1 0 : 4 1 0 sl:6J c, Q Prior to becoming the Executive Director l 0 : 4~ 31:7:1 0 of the FMSI, did you have any training or 1 0 : 4 1 : ? ~1:8J u experience with asbestos? 1 0 : 4 1 ~ 41:91 A No. 0 : 4 1 2 42:01 -1 0 4 ~ ~ t2:l>J 0 Q Industrial hygiene? A No. ] 0 4 l ' f2:2J u 1 0 : 4 1 L 22:3J 0 Q Toxicology? A No. 4 : 3 o2:4o () ~ Q Medicine? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (SIB) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 - - -----,----------------------------------------------r~---------------------------------- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 33 -1 3 J :1c 0 ~ A No. 1 0 4 1 J l :2c 0 Q I assume that what you know about those "1 0 : 1 10 : 41 4 3 :3: 0 1 <5 :4c u particular areas you learned on the job, so to speak? 1 0 : 4 1 4 8 :5 I) A Yes. 10 : 4" 1 0 : 41 s :6,< () ,, 4 :7() 0 Q Shortly after you began in 1970, did the FMSI organize an Asbestos Study Committee? l 0 : ,; 2 l i :8: 0 1 0 : 4 ;' 1 1 :9'! ,, A Yes. Q And did that -- did that committee -- 1 0 : 4 "- 1 s1:0:J 0 strike that. 1 0 : 4 " ' s1:1'l 0 L.Q : 4 C' 41:2! 0 And was that committee formed in 1971? A I don't remember. It was about 1971, but 1 0 : 4 2 2 s1:3; 0 I don't remember whether i t was '71. '1 0 : 4 ;' o1:4'' l 0 : 4 L l :J1:5J () Q Sir, as Plaintiff's Exhibit 2, let me hand you Bulletin Number 406 dated July 16th, 1 0 : 4 7 3 71:61 0 1 0 : 4 _, ' 4 ~1:7 J () 1 0 : 4 2 4 51:81 Cl 1971, which is FMSI 2911, ask you to take a look at that. A Well, that's when it started now, 1971. 0 : ,, 4 4 s1:9J ,-, '~ It is July 16th, 1971. You have this piece of 41 0 : L ;:, 22:01 0 paper in front of you. I don't. 1 0 : 4 < "' 42:12 0 ~ 0 : 4 3 :l o2:2o 'J Q What you have in front of you now, sir, I am asking you to take a little look at it, if you 1 0 4 3 3 12:3J (j would. 4 3 : 3 2:4J () Have you had a chance to look at that, sir? P_Q_ Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438,0126 Troy (5 18) 283,5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 ------------------------------------------------------ Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 34 4 3 : ' ~ :lc> 0 1 :2c0 : 4 3 3 ;~. 0 l 0 : 4 3 3 -- :3:> ' 1v : 43 :4o C> 1 0 : s 3 : 4 - :5. 0 1 0 : 4 3 4 3 :6' u ,,J 0 4 3 4 6 :7,-, 1 0 4 3 4 \) ,&, 0 1 0 4 3 -, 2 :<l 0 l 0 : 4 4 v ol:Q, ,, 1 v : 4 4 0 .Jl:1<.> u l_Q : 4 4 0 71:2u 1) L' (! : 4 4 1 11:3:> 0 J 0 : 4 4 l 31:411 I) 10 : 44 s1:5.' 0 1 0 : 4 4 : ? o1:6 0 l 0 : 4 4 2 41:7>! v 1 0 : 4 4 3 11:8; 0 1 0 : 4 4 3 51:9J [J 1 0 : 4 4 3 '12:0! Cl 1 0 : 4 L =' 92:b u J 0 : 4 4 4 Q:2J 0 1 0 : 4 4 4 62:3J 0 "4 4 c2:4o 0 ---~----- A Yes, I have. Q Does that refresh your recollection as to when the Asbestos Study Committee was formed? A Yes. Q And that's a document that you prepared as the secretary of the FMSI; is it not? A Yes. Q In fact, your name is on the bottom, E. W. Drislane, Secretary, that's you; right? A That is correct. Q Okay. And does this document assist you in recalling why the Asbestos Study Committee was formed? A Not really, because it was formed because a couple of the members, probably John -- Bill Reitze was Johns-Manville, and people like that thought we should get a committee going. I had no idea. I was brand new to this business. Q Under "Background" it says, "Well before this talk," and I think it refers to a talk delivered by Mr. Reitze of Johns-Manville, "there had been concern expressed on an Illinois Law which would eliminate the use of asbestos in brake linings." Do you remember that? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 35 4 4 :1u IJ A I remember that, but I didn't know that 1 0 : 4 5 () 1 :2o 0 until somebody showed me that. 1 0 : 4 5 CJ i ,}; 0 1 0 : 4 :, u ,, :4u ,, Q Okay. Tell me what you remember about that Illinois law that's referenced here? 1 0 1 5 : J :5:J 0 A Very little. I just know that somebody :UJ1 10 <l 5 : l) 0 said there was Illinois Pollution Control Board 1 0 : 4 5 : l 8 :7r D .1 0 : 4 5 ,_ :&: 0 was adopted some kind of a -- some kind of a resolution that there would be no more asbestos 1 G 4 5 = 4 :9:; 0 1 0 4 5 : 2 s1:0:, l) brake linings sold in Illinois after so many years, something to that affect. But I didn't 1 0 : 4 5 3 o1:1: () know that probably up until this meeting. t...Q : 4 5 3 11:2,, i) Somebody probably told me at that meeting did you J I) : 4 5 -' s13' 0 1 J 4 c 3 s1:4' 0 know that. Q Okay. J 0 4 5 : 3 ;1:5: 0 A Or maybe it was shortly -- maybe it was 1 0 : 4 b 3 91:6J i) months before. I don't know. "~ 0 : 4 4 11:711 1 0 : 4 5 4 31:8:> 0 Q Fair enough. And it was your understanding that Illinois was proposing a law 1 0 : 4 _c, 4 61:9:1 0 that would have eliminated the use of asbestos in 1 0 : 4 5 5 a2:Q 0 brakes in that state? 1 0 : 4 5 5 a2:1o C' A That's correct. 1 Cl : 4 ~-: :, o2:2>) 0 Q And we live in a society where people 1 0 : 4 6 : 0 rQ:3! 0 travel all over the place and move from state to 4 6 : c Q:4rJ u state, did you understand in 1971 that had P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 - - - - --~---- Albany (5 18) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 36 ,,4 6 : :1J (I Illinois passed that law that would have "1 0 : 6 : l :2:: () ~ : 0 : 4 6 l ,, :3:< c' ,,1 0 : 4 6 ] li :4u s1 0 4 6 : l 8 0 essentially eliminated the use of asbestos in brakes throughout the United States? A I didn't extrapolate that far. Q What was your understanding as to what 1 :60 4 6 ' :'j () would happen to the friction materials industry - () : 4 6 3 l :7r, 0 had that Illinois law been passed? l 8 4 6 3 5 :8> 0 A I don't recall having any reaction. My 1 0 4 6 3 7 :9:1 0 reaction to the whole thing was i t was far fetched 1 0 : 4 6 4 11:0 1) because I had heard, you know, the origin of all " 0 : 4 6 4 s1:1cJ C l_Q : 4 6 4 s1:2o 0 this stuff goes back to Irving Selikoff, who was a researcher at the Mt. Sinai in New York City, and sl (j : 4 6 : 4L3:J 0 i t was based on the spraying of asbestos in the l 0 : <j 7 0 31:4o 'J shipyard during World War II. And Selikof himself ~ 0 : 4 7 0 s1:5J D said, we are not out to go and ban asbestos. We l 0 : 4 7 0 g1:6J 0 are trying to regulate i t so we can control i t in l 0 4 7 1 11:7') u the workplace. And that was my understanding. 1 0 : 4 7 1 s1:8o [l So banning of the asbestos by this Pollution 0 : 4 7 1 s1:9J o Control Board I thought was stepping pretty far 1 0 : 4 7 E2:0o 0 when Dr. Selikoff even said we are not trying to 1 0 : 4 7 3 c2:l; u ban it. l 0 : 4 7 3 12:2o u Q Is it your understanding, sir, that this " 0 : 4 '1 3 :2:3J 0 4 7 4 :2:4o 0 proposed legislation had it passed would have essentially put the asbestos brake manufacturers P.O. Box 12459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 ___ Fax (518) 446-0582 __ ,_, .---------------------------------------------,---- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 37 4 7 4 ,, :1c out of business? "'1 0 : 4 7 :2c 0 1 0 4 7 5 4 :5 0 A I didn't understand that, no. Q Sir, let me show you the testimony you 1 0 4 8 J (I :4r 0 gave back in 1999, and we cite you to page 92. I ~ 0 : 48 \) :S' v will put that up on the screen for you. And as 1 0 : ,j 8 .3 J :6.1 u soon as our projector here kicks back on, we will 1 0 : 4 8 3 1 :71) I) let everyone see that. But in the meantime let me 10 : 48 10 : 48 3 ::. :& 0 ,, 0 :9:' J hand you pages 90, 91 and 92 of the deposition you gave in July of '99, and I will ask you to read l 0 : 4 8 Co 41:01 r) that. Let's go off the video cecord, please. 1 0 : 4 9 0 c1:1J 0 MR. PIAZZA: The time is now 10:48, LQ : 5 1 : 2 61:2 C) " 0 : sl s1:3J ,, 1 0 5 1 :' ll:4r, C 1 0 5 1 ' 11:51 0 1 0 : 5 1 : 3 31:6-J 0 we will take a pause in the testimony of Mr. Drislane. (A short recess was taken.) MR. PIAZZA: The time is now 10:50, we will resume the testimony of 1 0 : 5 1 3 51:7'J CJ Mr. Drislane. 1 o : 5 1 3 51:8) c BY MR. DeLUCA: 1 8 : 5 - 3 s1:9:J () l 0 : 5 l 3 72:0c 0 Q Mr. Drislane, we were just off the record while I was attempting to get this projector - 0 : 5 l 3 92:1o 0 ' 0 : 5 1 4 :2:2o () l 0 5 1 4 >12:3J 0 fixed, and I had given you a hard copy of pages 90, 91 and 92 of the deposition you gave back on July -- in July of 1999. Have you had a chance to 5 1 "' 42:4J 0 review that? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 ---------------------------------~--------------- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 38 ::, 1 s 4 :lc D 1 D : s 2 () l :2r C 1 0 : 5 2 D _l :3. 0 l D : ~. L 0 ~:) :4~ 0 1 0 : s L J 9 :5 u :61l CJ : 5 :' 1 5 0 10: 5" :7"') L 0 :81 0 : 5 2 L 6 u l D : 5 2 0 8 :9:' v 1 0 : 5 3 1 sl:Q, li 1 () : ~ 3 1 sl:1J 0 J ..Q : 5 3 : 2 ol2~ 0 lj : 5 .'l : 2 41:3, ~ 0 : 5 ? ' 6l:4n C) 1 0 : s 3 3 ol:SJ 0 '1 0 5 3 11:61 (I 1 0 5 3 : 3 31:7~ (I - 0: 53 3 5l:8J ~ 0 1 0 : 5 3 4 11:9) 0 1 0 : 5 3 : 4 32:()) 0 1 0 : 5 ~ 4 :L:li Cl l 0 : 5 3 4 62:2o C) ~ 0 : 5 :l s. ;:2:3J 0 5 4 0 r2:4o 0 A I have looked at it, yes. I find it very confusing. Q Okay. And the attorney who was questioning you on that day asked you a very similar question pertaining to the affect of the proposed Illinois law, and did you or did you not state that it would put everybody out of business? A That's what these minutes here say, but as I say, I am having great difficulty reading the rest of these minutes. Q Thank you, sir. Sir, do you recall at that deposition that you were given the right to read the transcript to see if there were any mistakes in the way that the court reporter transcribed the questions and answers and that you waived that right, do you remember that? A No, I do not. Q Okay. Does this refresh your recollection as to whether or not you took the opportunity to read and sign? A I'm sorry, where are you starting? Am I looking up on top or what? Q Sure. It says here, and this is on page 355, I believe, it says, "Mr. Drislane, earlier P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 39 :1'2 4 I_ I 1 () :2r51 0 : 4 D ~-' () J 0 : 5 4 () I :}_, 0 c1 : ~; 4 0 9 :4Ci 0 1 0 : 5 4 1 3 :5:: IJ 1 0 : 5 4 1 5 :6' 'j 1 0 : 5 4 1 b :711 0 l u : ~=- s 8 :81 0 :911 0 : _c, 4 -- ~ 0 () 1 0 : 5 4 ? 41:01 D l 0 : 5 ,j ,, -- sl:l,, c~ L..Q : 5 ,; ~~ 6l:2o (I -1 0 : c 4 3 ol:3J 0 1 0 : 5 4 3 5l:4rJ Q 0 : 5 4 3 7l:SJ c 1 0 : 5 4 3 9l:6J () l 0 : 5 4 3 9l:7J 0 1 0 : 5 4 4 ~1:8o D 0 : 5 4 4 sl:9o u l 0 : 5 4 5 42:0:1 0 1 0 : 5 5 : 0 o2:1J 0 1 0 : 5 :-:. : () 12:2o 0 ,,l 0 : 5 0 12:3o J 5 ~-. 0 72:40 0 off the record you were instructed that if you so desire you can take a look at the -- you can have the transcript the stenographer is going to compile from your testimony today, you can have the opportunity to look at that transcript in order to review it and make any corrections if you see any mistakes on the record, and also sign that you have read this transcript and reviewed it. Do you wish to have that opportunity?" And the answer you gave was, "No, I do not." A Okay. Yes. Q I just I want you to be aware of that. A Well I'm reading it now and I find that very difficult. I don't understand. I don't understand parts of it. Q Okay. A What I wanted to do was have that thing over with. I didn't want and go and be reviewing your work. Not your work, that gentleman's work. Q All right. I would like to go back to Exhibit 2. A Uh-huh. Q That's both Bulletin 406 from July 16th, '71, and ask you about the relationship between P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0 126 Troy (SIS) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 40 the FMSI and the AIA, the Asbestos Information Association. You are familiar with the AIA? ] 0 : :-, s : 1 8 :3- () MR. HARKINS: I object to the form :4n~ 0 : c, 5 L <) ~ of the question because it is complex. 1 0 5 5 2 ) :5.1 0 J 0 5 5 ,., 4 :6:1 0 It started with a statement and ended with a question. "1 0 5 "0 :~ 5 L 6 :71 0 :' 6 :&1 -. 10 55 3 c, v :9:1 0 BY MR. DeLUCA: Q Are you familiar with the AIA? A Yes. "1 0 _L, 5l 0 : ::, 3 o1:0' 0 3 51:1 Cl Q The AIA was formed by the asbestos companies of North America; was it not? .Q. : " 5 3 91:2n 2 1 u : _"l 5 3 91:31 0 A I don't know. Q Does your memo that you have in front of 1 0 5 ::, 4 :11:4) 0 you under AIA, Asbestos Information Association of l 0 : 5 5 : 4 31:51 0 North American, does i t state that this "'J 0 : 5 10 55 4 61:61 0 ,, o1:7o 0 association was recently formed by the asbestos companies of North America? J 0 : 5 :_, 5 c1:8o () A That's what someone had told me. l 0 : = ~) : 5 ~1:9J 0 1 0 : :_, ti : 0 c:2:0J !) Q And was it the intention of the FMSI to work closely with the AIA on asbestos-related 1 0 : 5 b 0 72:10 0 issues that would impact the brake lining and l 0 : 56 l2:2o 0 clutch facing industry? 51 0 6 : 1 :2:3.~ () A We were not going to work with them. We 5 6 :2:40 0 were going to take whatever information they had P.O. Box 124S9 Albany, NY 12212-24S9 Albany (SIB) 43B-O 126 Troy (SIB) 2B3-S064 Schenectady (SIB) 3SS-9216 Clifton Park (SIB) 3B3-1241 Fax (SIB) 446-0SB2 -- - - ~---------------------------------------- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 41 " "6 : l >J :1u 1 8 : =; 6 : ~ -- :2o 0 and use it for our -- use it to help us understand and work with the regulations. But we were not ::Xs1 () : 6 : c -- il going to work or mesh our work with theirs, no. ' 0 : s 6 J 0 :4u u That maybe what i t said. I am talking what 1 0 5 6 3 l :5:: 0 happened. This here is a 1971. This whole thing 1 0 5 6 : 3 7 :6:: 0 was just started. Right after not too long after 1 0 : 5 6 4 1 :7r, :J I had just started. l 0 : 5 6 4 'I :&> lJ Q So what you are telling me, if I :9:1 0 : c. 6 c; C, 0 understand you, sir, is that maybe in 1971 the ] () : 5 6 : _, o1:0: il Institute intended to work with the AIA, but 1 0 : ~' 6 5 21:1u J that's not the way things worked out? --0 : 5 6 l 0 : s7 ~ 41:21) () 11:3l 0 A That's correct. Some of our people did not want us to get too close to AIA. 1 0 : 5 7 0 =1:4.: (J Q Why is that? 0 : 5 7 u s1:5:J c, A I don't know. They felt that they were 1 0 : 5 -, 0 91:6J () steering us in the wrong direction or something 1 0 5 7 l 11:71 (I like that. 10 5 1 ~1:8~ 0 Q Was it that the brake lining l 0:s :-.1:~ -~ manufacturers didn't want to be associated in the 1 J : 5 7 - '32:01 (I mind of the public with people like Johns-Manville 1 0 : 5 7 ~ o2:11 'J and Raybestos who had made other asbestos ,Q:2o0 : :> -; -~- ~ containing products? l0 5 ~ 32:3-J lj A That could have been, but I don't believe 5 7 3 cl2:4o 0 it was. I don't know what makes people do things. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 ---- - - ------ --------------------------------~--------------- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 42 5 -; 1 0 : s7 '' :1 () j I :2,, ,-, Q Over the course of your career with the Institute you have come to know various 10 : 5 4 1 :3' 0 individuals who were employed by the AIA, have you 1 0 ~ 7 4 ~ :4:1 0 s1 () : 5 7 4 ::. I) not? A Yes. 1 0 : 5 "/ s ,6_, 'J Q You had the occasion to interact with :7111 0 : 5 7 0I, 0 Mr. Marinos? 1 l) : 5 7 _', ,-, :8:1 A Yes. 1 0 : :, 7 5 : ,g 0 Q And who was he? 0 : 5 '7 5 41:0! 2 A He was -- he was like I was. He was "l 0 : 7 1 .0. : 5 8 5 41:111 (I 0 11:2,, Executive Director of the AIA. Q You came to know an individual by the 1 0 : 5 8 0 s1:3; Cl name of Matthew Swetonic; did you not? 0 : :> R " '11:40 " 1 0 : 5 8 1 11:5J 0 A He is a name that appeared someplace, but I don't even know when he is when you say that 1 0 : 5 8 1 31:61 n now. That name I recall. 1 0 : 5 8 1 ~1:7~ () Q If I told you that he was with the public 1 0 : 5 8 1 ti1:8J " relations firm of Hill and Knowlton, and then 10 58 1:~ () Johns-Manville. 1 0 s 8 0 ;Q,QQ Cl A That could be, yes. - 0 : 5 8 0 ,12:1o ,, Q And you knew Mr. Robert Pigg as an 1 0 5 8 ~ s2:2o 1=1 individual employed by the AlA? 1 0 5 s 'i u2:3J (] A Yes. 's 8 o2:4o 0 Q In fact, you had Mr. Pigg come and speak P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 --- --------------------------------------------------- ---- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 43 5 8 3 1 :1:_ u :2'~ 0 : 5 8 3 7 n 1 C) : 5 2 3 9 :31 u :4:1 0 : 5 R 4 - I) 1 0 : 5 8 4 3 :S, 'J l 0 5 8 4 6 :6J 0 1 0 5 8 5 c :7'' 0 s1 0 : 8 i~) :8:~ 0 10 : 58 4 :~' ,, 1 0 : 5 9 G ol:Ol 0 1 0 : :::. 9 : 0 31:111 0 J J:l. : 5 9 : 0 :<1:2J 0 l 0 : 5 0 : 0 5l:3J 0 l 0 : 5 9 : l :<1:4<J u l 0 : 5 9 : ~ ~l:SJ 0 1 0 : 5 9 : 1 6l:6J 0 1 0 : 5 9 : 1 21:7- 0 0 : 5 q -- =1:8J c 1 0 : 5 9 ? ;1:9:1 0 ,, 42:0J1 0 : 5 : ~-' 0 0 : 5 9 : ~ t2:lr' ~~ 1 0 : 5 9 : L-- s2:2o 0 1 0 5 9 - s2,}:, 0 : 5 9 3 92:40 J to the membership of the FMSI on a few occasions; did you not? A Yes, I am always looking for cheap speakers. Q Okay. And the AlA was more than happy to send Mr. Pigg to your meeting to talk about the efforts of the AlA in regard to asbestos; were they not? A I don't know what he talked about. Q You would tend to agree that it would be about asbestos; right? A Oh, yes. Q He wasn't there to talk about sports or hunting or cooking, or anything like that; right? A Correct. Q Okay. All right. Have you ever attended any meetings of the AlA? A Yes. Q And were they held in Washington, D.C.? A Arlington, or someplace down that way. Q Suburb of D.C.? A Yes. Q And you would agree with me that the AlA was essentially a lobbying organization that acted P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 44 5 9 : 4 l :11 0 on behalf of the asbestos industry? l 0 : 5 9 : 4 5 :2: Cl A That was part of it, but they were more. 1 0 : 5 9 4 G :3' ) They provided us information in addition to : 0 : s g 4 8 :4t! " whatever they did, told us what laws were corning 1 0 : 5 9 ~) 0 :51 0 up, and what hearings were corning up, and things :6J1 0 : 5 9 : 5 ~ (I like that. They kept us posted on what was going 1 1 0 0 : 0 0 :7: (l on in Washington. l l 0 u 0 1 :8) CJ l 0 c> c :) :91 " 1 l 0 0 0 71:01 () Q Sir, when the AIA would furnish various groups or government bodies with information, do you believe that they presented a balanced view l 1 0 0 : 11:1) (_'! of the situation, or did they just present the ~ LJ. : 0 0 : 1 .'1:21 () information that was to the benefit of industry? 1 l 0 0 : 1 :1:3~ Cl A I don't know how to answer, but I would l 1 0 () ') ~1:4tl 'l imagine they were sending stuff that took 1 ~ 0v 2 41:5J v advantage of the industry. 1 l 0 0 : :' <11:6! 0 Q And one of the things that they would do l l v 0 r. sl:7') is that, when I say "they," I mean the AIA, the "1 l 0 0 ~1:8J 1) 1 1 0 0 ,i !l:~ IJ AIA would comment on proposed rules or regulations or legislation and advance industries view as to l ~ 0v 4 2:0:! 0 why the rules and regulations were perhaps too 1 l :J 0 4 c2:}D 0 severe or too difficult in i t ; correct? 1 1 0 0 5 c2:2u 0 A I -- can you rephrase the entire question 1 1 0 0 5 42:3c' 0 or statement? 0 1 0 a2:4o ,_, Q Sure. Sure. Actually maybe I will have P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -,_ ...---------------------------~----- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 45 0 1 0 1 :1: 1J her read i t back and if you s t i l l have a problem 1 ~ 01 ,; 3 :2~' ,, with it, I will rephrase because I want to make J 1 0 1 ~' l :31 0 11 01 3 3 :4rl 1_1. sure I ask you the same question, okay? A Yes. 1 l 0 1 3 ~' :5: iJ (The Reporter read back the 1 1 0 1 3 5 :6J 0 requested portion. :7:1~ 0 1 3 5 I. '" THE WITNESS: I don't know what AlA l 1 0 l ~' :8u 0 1 1 0 1 3 9 :9J 0 did. They did not keep me informed of everything they did. 1 ~ 0 1 ~J :1:0; BY MR. DeLUCA: 1 1 0 1 4 l1:1J 0 Q Over the course of your career, you did :-l,. : 0 1 4 :.1:2o ,_, receive certain documents from the AlA, you would 1 1 0 : 4 el:3J 0 be copied on various memos, on letters, and things 11 0 ~. c1:4J 0 ~ like that? 1 1 0 l 5 21:5J 0 A Yes. 1 1 0 ~ : 0 o1:6~ l1 Q Okay. Now I would like to see if you and 1 0 ::: 31:7o I can agree on a few things. And I'm just looking 1 1 0 2 0 91:8J 0 for your view on certain things based upon your 11 0 l 31:9J () knowledge, experience, training and your work with 1 1 0 ,, 1 .:2:0; 0 10 ~ t2:1l1 ,,,, the FMSI, all right? First of all, Mr. Drislane, do you believe that asbestos is a cancer causing 0 L 3 12:2o I) agent? 1 1 0 n 3 12:3J 0 MR. KRAUSE: Objection, foundation. 0 n, 3 Q:4o () P.O. Box 12459 Albany. NY 12212-2459 THE WITNESS: I believe asbestos has Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 46 0 2 3 ~. :1:: J caused cancer in certain people, yes. l l 0 :? 3 7 :21) J BY MR. DeLUCA: 1 0 2 3 ~~ :31 c. Q People exposed to asbestos? 1 1 0 ? 3 7 :41 0 A People exposed to some asbestos, yes. 1 1 0 2 4 :< :5:1 0 Q Do you agree that all types of asbestos, 1 1 0 ;: 4 8 :61 0 including Chrysotile can cause cancer? 1 1 0 2 " 0 :7:: CJ MR. KRAUSE: Same objection. l 1 0 2 5 4 :81 Cl THE WITNESS: I don't know. I know you are driving towards Ike Weaver's statement that all types of asbestos can cause cancer, but I don't know that I -- I don't know that the Chrysotile 1 l 0 3 : 1 :<1:31 (I talking mesothelioma, which is a type of 1 1 0 3 1 ~.1:4:~ 0 cancer? o 3 1 sl:Sl o BY MR. DeLUCA: 1 0 3 ;:' o1:~ ,, Q Yes, sir. 1 1 0 3 2 o1:7o 0 A Mesothelioma. 1 1 0 ' : 0 :-1:8J 0 1 1 0 3 : ;: 21:9J u Q Yes, sir. A I don't believe that Chrysotile causes 1 1 0 :~ : ~ :2:0:; 0 that, but Ike does. 1 0 3 : 2 42:lo ., ~ Q I am just asking you for what you think. 1 1 0 3 : .. s2:2c !] And am I correct that you don't think that ' 1 0 3 : 3 12:~ 0 0 j 3 52:4J 0 Chrysotile asbestos can cause mesothelioma? A That's correct. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 --------------......--.----------------- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 47 "'1) 3 3 ,1,, u 1 0 3 3 7 :2o c ~ MR. McGEARY: Object to the line of question. The witness indicated he is :3)1 1 0 3 3 9 (j not competent by education or training to l 1 0 J 4 5 :4<) 0 give these type of answers. 1 l 0 3 4 0 :5J 0 MR. DeLUCA: Well I'm not asking him 1 l 0 3 4 8 :6J 0 from the same perspective that I would 1 1 0 _3 5 0 :7 0 ask a pathologist, but I'm looking for :8JJ 1 () 3 = 4 ~ l 0 4 ,_ 1 :9-'J ~ the opinions he held as the Executive Director of the FMSI. 1 1 0 4 0 :;l:Ol (J ,,1 1 ,n, ,; 0 :1:lo MR. HARKINS: Well then I am going to object because your questions were all 1_J.. : 0 4 : 0 71:2o 0 phrased in the present tense, whether he 1 1 0 4 0 91:3J (l currently believes, and they were not l 1 0 4 1 :;1:4c 0 they did not seek his opinions while the 1 1 0 4 1 G1:5:J (_l Director of the FMSI. 1 0 4 2 ;1:6! 0 BY MR. DeLUCA: 1 1 0 4 2 21:7o l) Q If for the purposes of the next questions 1 1 0 ~ L 41:8) 0 I ask you your opinions are different now than 1 l 0 4 3 o1:9:J 0 they were between 1970 and 1989, I will expect you l 1 0 4 3 32:0:: 0 to tell me that, fair enough? 1 0 4 :l :2:1o D A Yes. 1 l 0 4 -' :2:2c 0 1 1 0 4 3 72:3:, ' MR. HARKINS: I object to the form of the question, because it presumes that 0 4 3 92:40 () the witness has an ability to delineate P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 48 () 4 4 ~) :1:_ 0 what his opinions were over a span of 1~ 0 4 4 6 :2r, c some 17 or 18 years. And request that he 1 1 4() 'i z :31 n conduct that exercise for you going back 1 1 0 4 5 4 :4r, (] as many as 30 years. 1 L 0 5 0 0 :5 0 MR. McGEARY: I am objecting to the 1 1 0 5 D l :6-' l line of the questioning, whether 1971 or 1 l 0 5 0 ' :711 G 11 ,, u o 0 5 :81 1) today because his education, training and competence haven't changed over the years l l 0 5 : 0 9 :9:' CJ unless he went back to medical school or 1 1 0 5 1 11:():; 0 1 0 5 l :o1:1,, ,,,, something like that. I don't think that is the testimony. If you give me a L ..t : 0 5 l s1:2,J (.1 continuing objection, but I am concerned l 1 0 5 1 61:3l (I that being shown to the jury when he 1 1 0 5 1 s1A; 0 doesn't have the background to give an 0 5 L o1:5J v opinion. 1 0 5 : 2 o1:6J 0 MR. DeLUCA: Well at this point I am 1 1 0 5 : 2 21:7') u going to make a request of you all to 1 1 0 5 : n 41:8J 0 1 0 5 : ,, s1:~ -J ,,1 1 0 : :< u2:0) G refrain from making speaking objections. If you have an objection, state it succinctly and let me move on. I really 1l 0 5 : 3 12:1J 0 want to avoid these side bar issues on my 1j 0 CJ j ~Q,2,l 0 ,,l l 0 3 :2:3~ 1) video. MR. KRAUSE: You can't avoid side 0 ~ : 3 92:40 ,-, bar issues if you are going to keep --- - - P.O. Box 12459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 ________________ ----......._,-----~~----------------------- Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 49 0 ::~ 4 1 :1r' D asking these kind of questions. I also 1 1 0 5 4 3 :2r) 0 would like a continued objection to this '1 1 v 5 8 :3::1 0 1 1 u Cl 4 8 :4J 0 type of questioning. MR. DeLUCA: I will grant that to :S1 ~ 0 ::> c> 0 0 you. I will grant that to you. "1 1 0 5 :6)L cl BY MR. DeLUCA: Q Backing up a little bit. I had asked you 1 1 : 0 6 0 'I :8rl 0 whether you thought that all types of asbestos 1 1 8 6 () ~ :9l () could cause cancer, including Chrysotile, and you had kind of changed the focus to mesothelioma. 1 : o 6 : 1 s1:1: o Let me approach those questions one at a time. l -l : 0 6 1 t.1:21) u Do you believe -- well let me strike that. Let me ask you for the opinions that you had 1 o 6 2 o1:4,J c; when you were employed by the Institute, all right? Not what you believe now, but what you believe then. Did you believe as Executive 1 1 o 6 J o1:7J o Director of the Institute that all types of asbestos could cause cancer, including Chrysotile? 1 1 o ti 3 51: 9J o A In 1971 or so when I started, about the time I started, whether I started in '70 or '71, 1 1 o 6 4 s2:1o o I'm not sure, but I didn't believe asbestos was a problem. I didn't know. I was brand new to this 1 1 : 0 b 5 42:3J 0 whole thing. And after about five or six years, 0 7 0 :2:4J 0 the first warning that we had in our book was a P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 - - -------------------------,..-------------------- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 50 D 7 0 :) :1o :311 1 '-' 7 D9 0 1 1 0 7 1 s ::X> 0 1: 0 7 :4c C) ; 1 0 ' l :cl :5J u l 1 0 -; ~ :' :6> ('1 1 1 c 7 2 4 :71) 0 l 1 0 7 .: 8 :8:J 0 11 ., 0 -' 1 :~: 0 0 '! 3 71:01 .- 1 1 : 0 7 :< 91:1rl 0 Lt_ : 0 7 4 11:21) (I 1 1 (I 7 4 31:3, 0 1 1 : 0 7 4 61:4rl () "'1 () ol:SJ .-, 1 1 0 7 ~- 41:6J (! 1 1 0 8 0 11:71) (I 1 1 () 8 0 31:8-J () 1 1 () 8 0 91:~ 0 1 1 0 8 l 12:0::1 0 1 1 0 8 1 02:1J CJ 1 1 0 H 1 s2:2J () 1 0 8 L :2:3:! u 0 8 : ~ 02:4o 0 thing that this could be -- asbestos could be harmful to your health. And then the later warnings really were whatever the occupational, OSHA, Occupational Safety and Health Administration said, you know. This didn't say maybe. I guess it says it is, or something like that. If you look at the warnings that went down each year, each two or three years, they get stiffer all the time as the regulations got stiffer. Basically the government didn't know that all of these things caused the cancer. In other words, as you see I am rambling, and that's what is going to be written down in all these minutes. There was a change from the beginning to the end as, I guess, my attorney has suggested. What did I think when I finished up there? I said, you know, all kinds of asbestos have cancer things. But I still in my own there was something about the Chrysolite, which was not used in brake linings at all. Chrysolite was apparently one of the main causes of the mesothelioma, but Chrysolite was not used in brake linings that I know of. It was Chrysotile. Q Are you familiar with a company called P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 51 lj 8 ;: 8 :1r u 1 1 0 8 3 0 :2c' J 1 l () 8 : .3 :3.1 I) '1 1 nv 8 1 :4u u l 1 0 8 J l :5: 0 1 ~ 0 8 .3 3 :6.; 0 1 1 0 8 3 5 :7>) D 3l ~ 08 9 :So ~ 1 1 0 8 4 l :9J 0 1 1 0 2 ~ 51:0) 0 1 1 0 8 5 o1:1: 0 o1:2:1..l_ : 0 8 : ;) 0 J l 0 8 5 4L3J () 1 : 0 9 " o1:4>l ,, l1 J 0 31:5J () 1 l : 0 0 51:6.) u 91:7J1 l : 0 C) : 0 I) 1 1 0 9 : l <1:8c 0 1 1 0 CJ : 1 81: 9:;, :J 1 l 0 9 : 22:Q, 0 1 l 0 g : ~ E2:1J 0 1 1 0 9 : E2:2J 0 l 1 0 9 3 o2:3J 0 0 9 3 o2:4o 0 Maremont? A Yes. Q Did you know that they used Chrysolite in their brakes? A I didn't know that. Q When you talk about the first warning that the Institute gave, are you talking about the recommended procedures that were attached as the last page of the Automotive Data Book? A That was one of the means of broadcasting the problem, yes. Q That was first published in 1977? A Is that right? You know better than I do then. Q Are you aware of any warning that was given by the Institute prior to 1977? A There was a little blue book we put out, which was, I think, was about 197 6. I think. Q Did that blue book discuss the possibility that exposure to asbestos could cause cancer? A I can't remember exactly, but that's what I gathered it said. Q Certainly the Institute possessed that P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212~2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (S 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (S 18) 383-1241 Fax (S 18) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 52 0 9 : .3 3 :1u c 1 l v 9 : .3 :J :2L 0 1 ~ 0 9 : :' :}_ 0 l 1 0 9 4 3 :4rc u 11 09 ' :51 0 1 1 0 9 : 4 :6: 0 0 9 4 8 :7n ~ :8JJ 1 9'~ 5~ :9;l 0 0:~ ~ 0 1 c ,_. '11:0> 1 l 1 0 - 11:1>) 0 l..J.., : 1 0 : 1 :;1:2J 0 l l 1 G 1 s1:3J 0 l 1 1 0 1 61:41) 0 1 1 l 0 0 :c1:5J () 1 1 1 0 : s1:6J (I 10 1 c :< 11:7o 11 l 1 l 0 3 :~1:8) n 1 1 1 Cl 3 s1:9J u 1 1 1 0 3 i2:0J 1.) 1 1 1 lJ 4 -2:1c CJ c 1 1 c 4 s2:2o ,, 1 1 1 0 : 4 Q,3J 0 : 1 0 : 4 s2:4o 0 information in 1976? A It possessed whatever information I showed in that book. I don't remember what was in that book. Q If the Institute were to have had knowledge that exposure to asbestos could cause cancer or mesothelioma, and yet did not publish it in the 1976 blue book or the 1977 insert in the Automotive Data Book, do you have any explanation for that as to why that may have occurred? A No. I just can't do everything. That's all. Q Do you think that had the Institute known of the risk of cancer they should have put that in the blue book and in the Automotive Data Book? A Had say it again. Q Had the Institute been aware of the possible relationship between exposure to asbestos and cancer, shouldn't they have put that in these books, the blue book and that A If they were certain of it, yes. Q How certain did they have to be, sir? A One memo would not make certain to me. In other words, P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 htwo memos might not. LIANCE REPORTING SERVICE, LLC But if there Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 53 1 c : :: l) :1u '~ was some study made by Dr. Sellkoff or somebody 1 1 1 0 : 5 4 :2u 0 over at Mt. Sinai that said so, I would probably 1 ~ 1 0 :3~ 0 agree. 1 1 l 1 () 3 :4c' J Q Are you aware of Dr. Selikoff's 1964 1l l l 5 :5:1 0 article entitled "Asbestos Exposure and 1 1 1 1 0 7 :6' 0 Neoplasia"? 1 1 l 1 0 :71 u A No, I am not. 1~ l 1 l l :8:, 1 l l 1 1 3 ,g-, 0 MR. DeLUCA: please. Off the video record, 1 l l 1 : 1 31:C}-J () MR. PIAZZA: The time is now 11:10, 71:1l ~ 7 ~ 3 we will take a pause in the testimony of 1....l : 1 7 5 41:211 ,I Mr. Drislane. 1 l l 7 5 41:31 0 (A short recess was taken.) l l 1 9 j 71:4o 0 MR. PIAZZA: Time is now 11:18, we l 1 l 9 : 4 11:5~ (I will resume the testimony of l 1 : l 9 : 4 .:"1:6::' u Mr. Drislane. 1 1 1 G 4 31:7u o BY MR. DeLUCA: 1 l l 9 4 31:8J [) Q Mr. Drislane, before we took a break I l 1 l 9 4 s1:9J iJ was asking you about the various warnings that the 1 l l 9 : 5 o2:0J 0 Institute gave concerning asbestos, the blue book 1 l l 9 : 5 42:1J I) that you mentioned that you believe was from the 1 l : 2 0 : 0 l2:2o n 1976 time frame, as well as the one page insert in l1 ., L 0 : 0 .'2:32 J the Automotive Data Book, which I believe was : 2 0 : 0 92:40 0 first given in 1977. I will have some documents --~ P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383~ 1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 __.. ------------------------------------------ Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 54 2 0 1 3 :lu ,., later that can confirm that date for you, but I 1 1 :' 0 l 6 :2(1 0 :3.:1 1 0 :,,, 0 0 will represent to you that that's what I have been told. And I asked you whether if the Institute 1 1 " 0 :' 4 :4u 0 :5>l 2 v ., 8 ', was aware of the possible association between exposure to asbestos and cancec, whether that :61 1 L 0 : l 5 0 :71 l 2 0 : 3 7 11 C) 11 ,, 0 l 9 :8( 0 1 1 : 2 0 4 3 :91 ~ information should have been given in those warnings, do you recall what you just told me? A Not really. We had a warning in there. What more of, obviously, there was some problem 1 1 0 4 sl:OJ 0 1 1 0 0 : s sl:1J l) with asbestos or we wouldn't have had those warnings in that blue book or that page in the l .-l_ 2 0 : 5 zl:2o 0 1 1 : 2 1 0 oL3J o Automotive Data Book, but that warning was going to our members who were then to disseminate it to ' 1 : 2 1 v sl:4o 1 1 : 2 1 0 9l:5J 0 the trade. I mean, people working let's say at Bendix, would get these things and distribute it 1 1 : 2 1 l 3l:ED 0 1 l ,, l 1 =1:7J u : 1 2 l 1 8l:8o 0 1 1 2 1 ~ 21:9:1 0 11 : 21 42:w 0 to their customers, rebuilders and stuff like that, and it was their job to go and get this information out to the public. We were giving this information to the people who we dealt with, our members, isn't that what -- is that what you 1 1 2 1 : i t2:1~ 0 1 1 2 1 : ~ 82:2J 0 1 1 2 ] 3 o2:3J u are asking? Q I'm asking you, sir, whether the Institute, if it was aware of the relationship 2 3 .<2:4o 0 ' between asbestos and cancer, should have put that P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 -~---------~----------------------~------------------ Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 55 1: 2 3 I :10 0 information in these warnings, do you think they 1 1 3 9 :2u 0 1 1 ,, 1 :l 9 :3:1 0 should of? A Let me see what we said. 1 1 ;' 1 4 l :4u 0 Q Well what I'm going to do is I am going 1 _j_ : 2 1 to hand you what was marked as Exhibit 14 to 1 1 : 2 1 4 8 :61 u Mr. Laycock's June 2002 deposition, which is a 1 1 7 1 ,c, ~ :711 l) copy of the 1977 Automotive Data Book. 11 : n c :8J 0 A Is that the first year that the notice ~ : 2L 0 : :9~ u appeared in there? 1 : 2 2 n 31:0) v Q Yes, sir. First of a 11, I am going to 1 1 2 " u s1:1u 0 1..1.. : 2 L 1 11:21) 0 ask you, do you recognize that as the 1977 book? A Yes. 1 1 2 ? 1 11:3) 1J Q And that was Plaintiff's 14; right? 1 : 2 2 1 31:4o " 1 1 : 2 ? 1 :,1:5! 0 A What's that? Q That was marked Plaintiff's 14 on the 1 1 : 2 L J 61:6! () : ,, 2 1 61:7; 0 cover? A Okay. 1 : 1 81:8o D Q So is that what it says, sir? 1 1 : 2 2 ~ o1:9J 0 A Plaintiff's Exhibit 14. 1 1 : 2 : 2 z2:0J 0 Q All right. And the one page warning that 1 : 2 2 2 42:1o D we are talking about appears on the last page; 1 1 2 7 3 92:2o iJ right? 1~ 2 2 4 12:3:l 0 A Yes. L ,, 4 12:4o 0 Q Take a look at that for a moment. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 __ ' -, --,---------------------------~--------------- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 56 : 2 2 4 !) :1~ () :2'l l : 0 2 4 8 () 5 :31l l n ? 'J () l l ::: : :0 - :4r' () 1 : 2 3 lj 0 :5 0 l 1 : 3c. 0 0 ,6_, 0 l l 2 3 0 l :71! () 1 l 2 3 0 3 :So 0 :9J1 l 2 3 : () :=:, 0 1 1 ;: 3 : 0 71:0) 0 1 : 3 0 ql:lo u 1-l_ : 2 3 0 91:21) u 1 j_ 2 3 : 1 sl:3J () 1 1 2 3 : n, Gl:4o 0 - l : 2 3 : 2 Gl:5u 0 1 1 2 3 : 2 sl:6J 0 1 l : 2 3 : 2 sl:7o 0 l l 2 3 : 3 olJ3-J () 1 1 2 3 : 3 51:9:: () l l 2 3 : 4 32:0J u 1 l 2 3 4 c2:lr) 0 1 l 2 3 4 c2:2o 0 l l 2 3 : 4 s2:3J 0 2 3 5 o2:4o 0 A This was based on our knowledge at that time. Q In 1977, did this warning reflect the full knowledge of the Friction Materials Standards Institute? A As best I can tell, yes. Q Now let's look at that warning. A Which warning, the one over on the left or the one on the right? Q Both of them, sir. A Yeah. Q And you can look at the full page in the document that you have in front of you. A Yes. Q Does this document at any place mention cancer? A Apparently not. Q And i s i t your p o s i t i on , s i r , that t hi s warning reflected the full knowledge of the FMSI in 1977? A Yes. Q Okay. Could I have that back? A We didn't know for positive. Whatever you in as a back seat driver 20 years later are P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 57 L 4 0 D :1(1 u able to go and say, at that time this is what we 1 l 4~ 1_1 3 :2c~ u knew. l - ,_ 4 0 :l ,}; 0 l1 ,, 4 0 ,, :4u iJ Q Now we talked earlier about the Asbestos Study Committee, and do you recognize Ike Weaver ~~ 4 l 1 :5:! 0 of Raybestos-Manhattan as being the first J l 2 4 1 5 :6J 0 chairman? l l 4~ 1 ::- :71 0 A No. 1 ' ~ 4 l 5 :8:: 1J Q Was it Dr. Stefl from -- ~ 1 : 2 4 1 8 :~ " A Yes. l~ : 7 4 l s1:0l 0 Q from Raybestos that was the first 1 1 : 2 ~ 2 41:1r! 0 chairman? ~L..l..: 2 4 : 2 41:21J 0 A Yes. ~ : 24 4L38 0 Q After his work with the Asbestos Study 1 1 2 4 2 s1:4o 0 Committee, then Mr. Weaver became the chairman; l : 2 4 3 J1:5J ,, correct? 1 l 0 4 :< 11:6:! 0 A I believe so. l 1 2 4 3 ce1:7o () Q And you have held Mr. Weaver in high 1 1 2 4 4 ~1:8J 0 regard; have you not? 1 1 2 4 4 J1:9J () A Yes and no. He vacillated on many l 1 2 4 4 P2:w u things. I can remember one time I took him up to 1 l 2 4 5 22:1J 0 the local dealer to get his BMW serviced, he was J l L 4 :~ 42:2c u having trouble. And three times he changed his " 1 2 5 : 0 o2:3J 0 mind as to whether to stay there for the work. He 2 5 0 ::-2:40 rJ used to drive me crazy. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 ----------------------------------------r-- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 58 2 5 : D 7 :l; () 1 1 : ... ~ 5 Cl ~) :2u 1 1 :2 5 0 g :~ 0 1 1 2 5 1 5 :4C> 0 ,, 51 :~ ~ : l tj () 1 1 ? 5 1 <5 :6: u ,.l 1 2 2 'J :7'' ll 1 1 2 J :So o 11 25:24:9-'0 1 1 : z s : :- 61:0' () 1 1 2 " 3 o1:1o o 1 ~ 2 s : 3 513J o 1 1 : 2 5 3 71:4o J 1 1 2 5 3 91:5u 0 1 1 :z 5 : 4 51:6l o 1 1 2 5 : 4 61: 7J 0 11 1 l 6 : o o1:9:l o 1 1 2 6 : o Q:Cn o 1 : 2 6 0 i2:1o J 1 1 2 E o :2:2o o 1 1 : 2 6 : 0 92:3J 0 2 6 1 ::2:4o o --------- Q Okay. Well, other than some personal quirks he may have had, did you view him as someone who was knowledgeable about asbestos and asbestos-related disease? A Yes. Q In fact, you thought he was a sharp person; did you not? A I thought he was a knowledgeable person. Sharp, I don't know that. Give me your definitions of "sharp" and all that. He is a knowledgeable person. Q All right. Let me show you what you said on page 139 of that deposition. A Okay. I said that I had. Jesus Christ, go back every word I said at that time is going to be checked to see what I say now. I said "sharp" then. I say "knowledgeable" now. Q And would you agree that he knew more about asbestos than you did? A Yes. Q Now the Asbestos Study Committee would have meetings at various points in time, and there would be minutes of those meetings; correct? A Yes. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 59 :1116c, ~ 1 c> u 1 1 2 6 1 0 :2r, 0 1 1 2 6 2 0 ,:y, 0 :4cc : 2 6 : " 2 0 l l : 2 6 .;_ L :5_1 J 11:26 26:6CJ() 1 1 : 2 6 : j 0 :7,1 I) 1 : : 2 6 : 3 0 :&~ D 1 : 2 6 :1 sl:OJ c l ~ : 2 )J : 4 :1:3: u J l : 2 6 4 11:411 0 1 1 2 6 4 s1:5c () 1 1 2 6 s 61:6J 0 J 1 : 2 6 4 s1:7J 0 1 1 2 6 : 5 o1:8c o 1 1 : 2 7 0 z2:0:l 0 1 1 : 2 7 1 c2:2o o l 1 2 ; 1 ::2:3:~ 0 2 1 s2:4o o -"------ Q And those minutes were generally shared with the general membership at the annual membership meeting; were they not? A I don't think so. Q Did the Asbestos Study Committee give an annual report to the membership of the FMSI? A Yes. Q And the FMSI would generally hold annual meetings in June of each year? A Yes. Q Usually at a nice resort located throughout the country? A Yes. Q Do you recall attending a meeting held in Vail, Colorado in 1973? A Yes. Q And you attended that meeting as the Executive Director and Secretary? A Yes. Q And various people gave addresses at the meeting, including Mr. Weaver? A Yes. Q As Plaintiff's Exhibit 3 I am going to hand you a document that bears the Bate stamps P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 60 ,, 7 2 -~ :111 0 FMSI 0082 through 00088, and ask you to take a l 1 2 7 _') 1 :2:] 0 look at i t , and I will ask you whether this is the :3l l 7~ 37 0 document you referred to earlier in your testimony 1 : 2 7 -~ 9 :4o C> about the Weaver paper? 11 2 4 1 :5:1 0 A I don't remember calling it the "Weaver :6l1 l 7/, 43 0 paper." l1 L 'j 4 5 :71: D 1 1 : 2 7 4 6 :8! ,, Q The Weaver address, or something of that nature? :9!1 1 2 ') 4 6 c, A This is -- this was what I delivered to 1 1 ? 7 4 sl:OJ (_) that meeting, yes. 11 2 5 ol:1J (I Q Okay. You want to take a few minutes to 1-l._ : 2 8 2 ol:2o 0 look at i t , or are you pretty familiar with what's l 8 : 7 21:3J v in here. 1 1 2 R :' 41:4~1 0 A (The witness is perusing the document.) 1 1 2 8 2 41:5J 0 Q Sir, if you would like to go off the l 1 28 6l:6l () record to review the whole document, we can do 11 L 8 sl:7o 0 that, or I can walk you through the portions - 1 i3 3 ol:8o " 1 l : 2 8 -' CJ1:9J 0 A No. Walk me through it then. Q All right. l 1 2 8 3 l2:0J 0 A Do you want this back? 1 2 8 :l '12:lo C) Q No. You can keep it in front of you. 1~ 2 B 3 c2:2o 'J And, sir, you may have an easier time with these " l 2 R :'1 92:3J 0 questions if you look at the screen because I have 2 8 :, o2:4o 0 the portions of this memo that I am interested in P,O. Box 12459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 ______________________________________________-- , ---- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 61 2 2 : 5 ' :11' 0 1 1 2 9 : 0 l :2J 0 1 1 9~ 0 5 :3~ 0 ~ 1 : 2 9 0 9 :4c' l 1 2 9 1 l :S, 0 1 1 2 9 l 1 :6J u 1 1 2 9 : l 3 :7J 0 1 1 2 9 1 5 :8c 0 1 1 2 9 l 8 :9J v 1 1 2 9 2 o1:01 0 1 1 2 9 2 c1:1J 0 1-l. : 2 9 : ::' 41:2J 0 1 1 2 9 : 2 61:3; 0 ~ 1 9 : 2 sl:4o o l 1 9 : 3 11:5J 0 1 1 2 9 : 3 31:6J 0 l 1 2 9 : 3 s1:7J 0 1 1 2 9 3 91:8c 0 1 : 2 9 4 3l:9J 8 1 1 2 9 : 4 :2,0:J 0 1 1 2 9 : 5 22:lo 0 1 1 2 9 : 5 42:2o o 1 1 3 0 : 0 2: :X 0 : 3 c : 8 12:40 J outlined for you. Mr. Weaver was engaged in a study of asbestos and asbestos-related issues not only for the FMSI Asbestos Study Committee, but his employer Raybestos; was he not? A I don't know. Q Okay. Do you recall? A I mean, I don't know about him what he does for his employer. I know what he did with FMSI. Q Do you know what his position was with Raybestos? A Not now I don't. Q And did Mr. Weaver report on a meeting that was held in France by the IARC, the International Agency for Research On Cancer? A Is this written from that particular is this thing that's highlighted over here on the right in here? Q Yes, sir. A Well if it is in here, then yes. Q Okay. And do you recall Mr. Weaver making certain conclusions and recommendations during this address? A I don't remember all this stuff. I see P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 62 3 0 : 0 .l :1~: 0 the thing in paper, I will say yeah, that's what 1 ~ 3 0 : 0 7 :2_: 0 he -- this is what he said, but I don't remember 1 1 3 0 C) 7 :3! 0 it, no. 1~ 3 0 0 9 :4<) 0 Q That exhibit that I have in front of you, 1 1 3 0 - 3 :5J 0 is that something that you prepared? 1 1 3 0 1 6 :6:1 0 A Well, this, yes, this is the this is ] 1 3 0 : 0 0 :7:: 0 apparently meeting, I don't know what i t was. 1 1 3 0 2 2 :8o 0 Q Well that was Exhibit 14.1 to the minutes :9J1 1 : 3 0 2 4 'J of the annual meeting? 1 1 3 0 2 61:0! 0 A Okay. That was in a report pack that 1 1 : 3 0 : 3 r:l:1J 0 went with the minutes of the meeting. All right. t-l. : 3 0 : 3 11:2,.1 0 Okay. 1 ~ : 3 0 : 3 _1:~ 0 Q Yes, sir. You prepared that; correct? l 1 : 3 0 3 :.1:40 0 A Yes, that's correct, but I prepared it l 3 0 3 71:5J v from whatever Ike gave me. ] l 3 0 3 91:6:1 CJ Q And in your preparation of these types of J l 3 0 4 31:7') 0 reports and exhibits and minutes you worked very l l 3 0 4 s1:8J 0 hard to take accurate, trustworthy, reliable 1 l 3 0 : 4 61:9J 0 notes; did you not? 1 1 3 0 5 o2:0J () A Of course, yes. 1 1 3 0 5 o2:1o 0 Q You prodded yourself on professionalism - 1 3c 1l : 3 0 5 :2:2o u ,, 42:3J 0 and your accuracy; right? A I -- see when you are saying this, when 3 1 0 c2:4o 0 you say "accuracy," I can say I can repeat what P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 -----------------------------------...-,-------------------- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 63 3 1 J 3 :lc' c :3:1 1 3~ 1~ 0 '1 1 l 1 1 :3o 0 1 1 j 1 1 6 :4r 0 s,' l 31 ') 4 ,, u 1 1 3 1 ~ 6 :61 0 1 2 2 0 : 3 3 ,7,, 0 l 2 2 0 : 3 7 :8; 0 1 2 3 : ~ 2 :9! J 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 was said of things that I took down at the meeting, but I can't say for the accuracy of whatever this particular person said, or I don't know that. But this is what was given to me by Ike Weaver as his talk. MR. DeLUCA: Off the video record. MR. PIAZZA: The time is 11:30, we will take a pause in the testimony of Mr. Drislane. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0 126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 64 : " ~ 4 1 0 :lr " 1 2 ,, 4 J q ,2,, 0 '1 - 2 4 4 ,:y, 0 1 2 2 4 4 5 :4r: I) s1 ') 7: 4 4 8 IJ (After a luncheon recess, the proceedings reconvened at 12:23 p.m.) MR. PIAZZA: The time is now 12:23, we will resume the testimony of Mr. Drislane. 12 2 4 5o ,6_, J BY MR. DeLUCA: 2 -' 4 5 J :7rr 0 Q Mr. Drislane, good afternoon. I want to "' 2 5 0 v :8:1 0 :9'1L : 2 :, : 0 c I) go back to some of the issues that we were covering before we took a break for lunch and go 0 : 2 :, : 0 91:0; back to the 1977 recommended procedures for 2 : 2 2 1 31:1rl ,_ reducing asbestos dust during brake servicing that 1 2. 0 5 1 G1:2o c l - 5 2 o1:3J 0 appeared in the FMSI Automotive Data Book, okay? And you and I had reviewed the language that 1 2 2 5 2 21:41 () appeared in that warning, and I had asked you 1 2 2 5 : - s1:5J 0 whether i t contained any reference to cancer, and 1 2 2 5 : 3 ~1:6; 0 I believe you said that i t did not, do you recall l l 2 :, 3 31:7rJ (1 that? c~ 2 : 2 3 31:8J ,, A I believe so, yes. 12 2 c "' 3 51:9J 0 1 2 2 5 : 3 -;2:0J 0 Q You agree with me that it does not contain any reference to cancer? 1 2 2 :, 3 92:1~ 0 ,,l 2 2 4 s2:2~ I) A That doesn't say cancer up there. Q That's right? - 2 : 2 c. 4 o2:3:J A Right. : 2 ~. : 4 o2:4o C) Q Okay. And I had asked you whether you P.O. Box 12459 Albany. NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (S 18) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 - - --~~-----------------------------...--' Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 65 : 2 b :3 :ll u believed that this warning reflected the knowledge 1 - ~ ' 2 :2:.1 u that the FMSI possessed in 1977? :3:1 2 0 6 0 1 () A Yes. 1 2 ~ 6 : 0 :4:: 0 Q You believe that it does, that it did? 1 2 : 2 ti 0 c :S () I'm sorry, I didn't mean to step on you. You 2 6 0 7 :6: ,. believe that i t did? 2 0 6 0 7 :7:.: 0 A Yes. You must remember that this is not 1 2 6 0 ~: :8u 0 my wording. This is a group sitting down at a 1 2 2 6 : 1 3 :9J 0 table picking out the wording that is to go with 6~ 1 cl:O Cl the thing based on possibly what was suggested by l 2 2 6 ~ 41:111 ., their members and all that. It was something that l 2.. : 2 6 :? o1:2o c, was put together with some people probably saying 1 2 2 6 ' s1:3J 0 l 2 2 6 : 3 ~1:41 0 we should say, yes, we should say "danger," we should say "cancer," and other people saying, "No, 1 2 2 6 : 3 11:5; D you should word it this way here." Whatever it 2 : 2 6 3 71:6J 0 was, i t was the judgment of the people at that l 2 2 6 : ? 91:7o 0 particular meeting as to what the words should be. 1 2 2 6 : ~ 31:8J u Q And who would the people have been? 1 2 2 6 : 4 51:91 0 Would they have been members of the Asbestos Study 1 2 2 6 4 t2:0J 0 Committee that would have been responsible for l 2 2 6 :_l o2:1u 0 this? 1 2 2 G 5 :2:2u I) A Yes. 1 2 2 G : s z2:3J () Q And those individuals would have been u2:4o: 2 ; v ~ officers or directors of your member companies; P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 - - - - ---~-------------------------------------------- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 66 ., - 7 (J l :11, 0 1 ? L 7 0 1 :2r, 0 1 2 " 7 0 - :3c 0 ' :4ll ~ ,, 7~ 0 'J s_," ~ 2 7 v 7 G 1 :z (J g :6:1 0 1 2 ? 7 l 3 :7c~ ll 1 2 2 'I :S 1) 1 2 : ., 7 2 0 :9' 0 12 27 z1:0:' (', 61:11)1 2 7~ ~ " (I 1.2._ : 2 'I ,, s1:2J 0 113;'- : 2 ~i 3 0 .,l L : ~ 'I .3 .31:4() ,, '1 2 "' 7 71:51 0 l 2 2 7 3 91:6:1 0 1 2 2 7 4 11:71 (I ] 2 2 7 4 s1:8u () 2' 7 4 61:9:! 0 l 2 7~ 4 Q:Ch 0 ] 2 2 7 :) z2:12 0 2 2 8 Cl cl2:2c () 2 : 2 8 0 12:3j u 2 8 0 Q:4o I) --------- correct? A No. Q Who would they have been? A People who volunteered. I can't say they volunteered as such, but the various companies who were interested in the thing at this particular time, the whole thing was started by Johns-Manville, and I believe Raybestos who are the ones. So you got volunteers from different companies to go and serve on the committee. And those were the ones that they weren't necessarily the delegates or anything else. I don't think any of them were the delegates. They were people who had some expertise in this area. Q There were individuals on the Asbestos Study Committee that were employed by other companies than just Johns-Manville and Raybestos; correct? A That is correct. Q And before the Institute would publish something like this, would it typically be reduced to a vote? A I don't know. You sit around and you argue and then you arrive at some kind of a final P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0 126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 67 :1.,, 8 : 0 7 () draft, and people put their own two cents worth 1 2 : ,, 8 1 l :21 in, we should say this, and we should say that, 1 12 c 8 3 :), (' and that is what comes up. But I don't think :4c'L L 8 1 5 (I there was a vote. There was generally an :5:::;' 2 8 1 8 () agreement at the end of the thing that this is the =1 ::: 8 ,, ~ :6:) 0 2' ::: 8 :' 6 :7,, ,, wording. We didn't raise our hand to say yes, I vote yes or I vote no. 1 " 2 8 :' 6 :&' u Q And you had mentioned that perhaps there ~ 2 8 .'. f_1 :9J 0 was some discussion as to whether or not i t should 1 ? ' 8 3 ~1:0; 0 be a caution as opposed to a warning, and whether 2 8 3 71:1u :J the word "cancer" should or should not appear. Do J.~ : 8 l ., ' 28 ' 9l:2rJ 0 " 11:3) ,, 1 2 2 8 4 :c1:41l 0 you recall discussions about that? A I don't specifically recall discussions on that, but I'm sure there probably were 2 " s 4 61:5: (l discussions. 1 2 2 8 4 s1:6J 0 Q Is it your understanding that the 2 2 8 5 ol:7'l (c industry, including the FMSI did not want the 1 2 2 8 ~. 41:&) (J words "danger" and "cancer" to be included in this 1 2 2 9 : 0 o1:9J 0 label? 1 2 2 q 0 o2:0J () A The FMSI really had nothing to do with l 2 2 ') 0 :2:1o I) i t . The FMS -- the wording was selected by the 1 2 2 9 : (J 12:2o 0 people who served on the committee. I was the l 2 2 9 l '.2:3J 0 flunky who took the notes. : 2.: 'l 1 :2:4o J Q Sir, I am not being critical of you in P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 - ---------------------------------------------------- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 68 t 2 9 l 8 :1o 0 :2o" ~ 9 2 ;' 0 9c, 3 0 :3:1 0 ~ ~ ~ 1 :40 0 9~ : 3 l :S:l 0 " 9 : 3 3 :6:l 0 ~ 9 : 3 5 :7o 0 :Soc 9 : 3 9 0 : 9 : 4 3 :9:1 0 c 9 4 gl:()J 0 2 9 5 o1:1o 0 t L 9 : 5 41:2o 0 : 3 0 : 0 11:3:1 0 3 0 : 0 s1:4o 0 3 0 : 0 91:5:! 0 3 0 : l 11:6:! 0 3 0 : 1 31:7o 0 3 0 1 61:8o 0 3 0 1 s1:9:J 0 : 3 0 : 2 z2:0:l 0 : 3 0 : 2 42:1o 0 3 0 : 2 62:2o 0 3 0 : 3 12:3:1 0 t 3 0 : 3 s2:4o 0 anyway. My question related to whether or not the FMSI and its members had a problem with the words "danger" and "cancer" in th~ label, do you recall that? A They may have. I didn't. Q I'm not, again, Mr. Drislane, I don't want you to take this personal, and I am not being critical of you. Let me show you what you said on page 304 of that deposition you gave back in 1999. Beginning at line 16. Question: "Isn't it true that at this time OSHA had initially wanted the words "danger" and "cancer" to be included in the label, and industry including the FMSI did not want those two, and this says "boards," but I think it is "words in the label," and your answer is, "That is my understanding." Do you recall giving that testimony? A If that's what they took down when I said it, that's probably what I said. I blessed well can't remember what I did that day. Q Sir, this isn't a memory test. I am just trying to establish what you recall happening and what you don't. Now do you have an understanding as to why industry didn't want the word "danger" P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 69 :L3 0 3 c! Cl or "cancer" on this label? l 2 3 Cl 4 1 :2<J :' A I don't really know the answer to your 12 30 45 :3' c, ') question, but I would assume they didn't like the 2 3 v 4 R :41) " SJc2~ 3 48 c' 2:3 ~ ,_ (J :6J word "cancer." Q And why is that? A Well I don't like the word "cancer" :' 3 c;, ' ~' :7,-, ,-c either. In other words, it is a serious disease. 2 31 D :8J c Q Sure. But don't you think people who 2 3l :91() "I (\ work with these products deserve to know that they l 2 3 l 0 91:0J u might possibly contract cancer as a result of that l 2 3 1 1 l1:b C< work? 1~ : 3 l 11:2u u A Let's take the dates that all this is I2 :3 ;1:31 (! going on. This is in the early '70s. By the end 12 3 s1:4rJ () of the '70s I would say yes, it was fairly well "l 2 3 L 41:5J 0 'l 2 3~ cl:6J 0 1 2 3 1 J 11:7'1 II proven that this was a real problem. But at the beginning of the '70s, I had never heard asbestos and cancer in the same -- in the same paragraph. ] 2 _, 1 3 ~1:81 0 This is all new to me. 2 3 l j 91:91 0 Q Sir, my question was: Don't you think 1 2 3 l 4 .-2:0:: u people who work with these products deserve 1 2 3 1 4 -=2:1o ') to know that at least there was a possible 2 3 1 4 82:2G association between exposure to asbestos and 2 3 1 ~ z2:3J c, cancer, didn't they deserve that? ~ :l 1 ~ 42:40 C, A Who are we talking about, my customers or P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 - - - - ........r--~--------------------------- - - , - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 70 3 7 0 l :111 u 1 2 3 2 0 5 :21 u 1 2 3 7 0 9 :3: IJ l 2 3 ;c 1 :; :4c, 0 2 ~ 32 1 6 :51 1 ;:> 3 7 1 s :61 0 2 3 2 L :2 :7'1 (I :So1 ,,2 3 4n ~ l 2 3 L ,, 6 :9' 1 ,, 3 7 3 o1:0J ? 3 ~ < ol:l' l ~ : 3 :' 3 s1:2o 0 3 2 3 71:3:1 (I 0 3 2 3 91:4; 0 2 3 2 4 11:5J 0 2 ~ 3- 4 11:6 1 ,, 2 3 4 _,1:7') C; 12 30 ~ c s1:8J n "'l 2 3 ,, :'1:9! () 1 2 3 j 0 c2:0= 0 2~ 3 3 u 12:1) ,,,, l 2 3 3 u _2:21) 0 l 2 3 3 0 :2:3= 0 3 3 : () 92:4o 0 the consumer down the line, the person who gets a brake job done at the car dealer? This stuff was being developed for the manufacturers of brake linings in their shops. The big thing at the beginning was at your presses where you press the material together or where you extruded it or where you calendared it, and all that stuff, it was made for those people. We were not thinking directly in terms of the ultimate consumer at that particular time. Q Sir, didn't the FMSI publish up to 40,000 copies of these a year? A In one year we did. Q And there aren't 40,000 manufacturers of asbestos brakes? A These were for all their members. This was for all their customers, for the rebuilders and the brake shops, and all that, yes. But they were not meant for the person, you know, standing around in a brake shop. They were meant for people who were working with asbestos products. Q Well regardless of if we are talking about a company or a distributor or the guy who is standing around while a brake job is being P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 71 t -' 3 1 5 :lo 0 :2o3--~ 20 0 3 3 2 2 :3:1 0 3 3 2 4 :4o 0 3 3 : 3 1 :S::l 0 3 3 3 1 :6:1 0 3 3 3 5 :7o 0 3 3 : 3 5 :So 0 3 3 : 3 7 :9J 0 3 3 3 9l:Cb 0 3 3 4 1l:lo 0 3 3 : 4 3l:2o 0 t : 3 3 : 4 51:3:1 0 3 3 4 6l:4o 0 3 3 5 ol:S::l 0 3 3 : 5 21:6J 0 : 3 3 : 5 41:7o 0 3 4 0 ol:8o 0 3 4 0 11:9J 0 3 4 : 0 Q,OJ 0 : 3 4 : 0 s2:lo 0 3 4 1 12:2o 0 3 4 1 32:3:1 0 t 3 4 1 s2:4o 0 performed, wouldn't you agree with me that he or she deserve to know that working with brakes might cause cancer? A Yes. That's the answer you want, right? Yes. Q Because there is nothing more valuable than human life; correct? A I believe so. Q What's more valuable than human life? A I'm not going to go into this. I mean, I --what's your point? Q My point is is that the people who work with these brakes should have been warned of the hazards, and that didn't happen; did it? A Warning them of the hazards and were telling them not to do, but we didn't put the word "cancer" in the thing. Q Cancer is the kind of thing that gets your attention; doesn't it? A Yes, it does. Q You know that from personal experience? A Yes, I do. Q Scary? A But not from asbestos. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 72 3 4 1 6 :1, C> 1 2 3 4 2 0 :2J 0 10 34 :3J 0 12 34 :4;.. !, 0 1 2 3 4 -. F. :5~ D 1 2 3 4 3 9 :6~ 0 :7Jl 2 3 4 4 ~ CJ l 2 3 4 4 j :81 u l 2 3 4 4 ~- :9! Cl 2 3 4 4 al:OJ ... 2 34 :-'. : 3 5 " ;>1:1J " c ol:21) c .I 2. 3 ~) 0 31:3J 0 1 2 3 2' 0 s1:4o 0 1 2 3 ~-, 0 91:5J 0 2 3 ~- - s1:6) 0 '1 2 3 :. H1:7l () 1 2 3 5 -. :1:8J 0 1 2 3 5 61:9! 0 22:0::1 2 : 3 :> : ') l) 2 3 ,, ' cl2:1,l (J 2 3 s 3 :2:2o 0 - 2 3 b 3 72:3J v 3 C> 4 12:40 () Q No, sir. Getting back to the question as to why the word "cancer" or "danger" didn't appear in here, isn't it true that industry thought people would stop buying these asbestos brakes? A That may very well be. I think some members felt that way. Q Do you remember who they were? A No, I do not. Q Now getting back to that 1977 recommended procedure that doesn't mention cancer, do you think that reflected the full knowledge of the FMSI in 1977? A I believe so. Q Okay. Now let's look at what Mr. Weaver said in that address he gave to the membership back in 1973 in the summertime out at Vail. We talked about that earlier. You have that in front of you. That's Plaintiff's Exhibit 3. Didn't Mr. Weaver say that all major commercial types of asbestos can cause cancer? A I believe he said that, but I don't think he said it at what level and all that. In other words, I'm saying you can cause cancer, but if you had a certain level, it might be 0.1 fibers per P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 73 3 s 4 s :1:' D cc, does that cause cancer? I don't know. I "1 2 3 :2rJ Cl 2 3 ::I 5 0 :31 ~ don't know whether Mr. Weaver got into that part. What's the concentration with 8ne fiber in a 2 3 2 :-=; L :4c, " 2~ 3 6 c 1 :5'1 c thousand cc's cause cancer? I don't know. Q Let's look at what Mr. Weaver said. 1 ~ 3 6 0 3 :6J 0 Didn't he say that large volume replacement users 1 2 3 6 0 9 :71) 0 present major potential hazards but even small 1 2 3 6 1 1 :8l 0 jobs, small job shops can needlessly expose people 2 3 6 1 ( :9) 0 to high fiber concentrations if operations are 1 2 3 6 : 1 21:0J 0 performed without controls? 1 2 3 6 : r, o1:1: 0 -1 2 3 6 : 2 o1:2o CJ I L 3 6 ;' z1:3J 0 A Uh-huh. Q He goes on to say that these may be intermittent and of shorter duration, and that :c 2 3 6 ~ s1:4u v does not preclude the possibility for occurrence 2 3 G .3 o1:5J 0 of adverse health affects in hyper susceptible l 2 3 G 3 11:6) () individuals. Do you recall that? 1 2 3 b 3 11:7>) 0 A No, I don't recall that. I hear you 1 2 3 0 ~i :<1:81 u reading i t off, and I believe that's what he said. l 2 3 6 3 :1:91 0 Q And you understand that to mean that 1 2 3 b : 3 92:0) 0 people who don't work with asbestos all day, that 1 2 3 6 4 l2:L 0 might work with it from time to time, can be at 1 2 3 6 4 s2:2o 0 risk for the development of asbestos-related 2 3 6 1 s2:3J ' diseases? 3 b s o2:4o o A With the heavy concentrations, yes. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (51 B) 43B-O 126 Troy (51 B) 2B3-5064 Schenectady (51 B) 3S5-9216 Clifton Park (SIB) 3B3-1241 Fax (SIB) 446-0S82 -' '--------,------------.......-------._.-..--------------- --- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 74 ,,3 6 " :1:' D J 2 : 3 7 0 0 :21! 0 :3!2r 3' u1 r 2 3 7 c 3 :41) c, 1 2 3 7 0 7 :5J 0 1 2 :l ; J2 37 1 :6) 0 :7:) 0 1 2 3 7 1 8 :81 0 :9).,2 3 0: ' r 0 2 3 ; r, r 41:0) 0 1 2 3 7 -. s1:1u D 1~ : 3 7 .'3 11:2rJ 0 ', r 3 ; 31:31 ,) ,,32r ; :o1:4J ,, 2 3 7 3 ;1:51 G 12 : 3 7 l 2 3 'I " 91:6J 0 4 11:7iJ () 1 2 3 7 4 31:8) () J 2 3 7 4 c1:9J () J 2 3 7 4 s2,0J (I 2r 3 ; 5 a2:lrJ ' 2 3 7 = 22:2o u 2 3 ; ~ 42:3J 0 3 8 0 12:4u 0 Q And do you know what the safe level of asbestos exposure is? A Well, no, and nobody did at that time. The OSHA worked on this and they would first of all carne with the two fibers, they carne two fibers per cc. The time waited something all day long, and a five fibers per cc, and then they dropped it down to a lower concentration. But they were gradually over the years moved it to lower concentrations when they finally carne down to none. But during that interim period, I didn't know that small concentrations would give cancer, no, I didn't know that. Q You had subscribed to the Federal Register for many years? A Yes. Q And when information pertaining to asbestos would be published in the Federal Register, you would copy that and forward it to your members? A Well, I know I forwarded it to the members of the Asbestos Study Committee, and I may have distributed to the delegates and alternates. But you got to remember, the delegates and P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 75 ,,3 8 0 :111 c~ 1 2 : -' 8 0 7 :2cl 0 1 ~ 3 8 1 l :3:1 u 1 2 3 8 1 3 :4c: 1 2 3 8 1 6 :51 J l 2 : 3 8 1 8 :6J - 3 8 ., 0 :7,, c, 1 2 3 8 2 ~ :81 1 2 3 8 L b :91 0 1 2 3 8 2 sl:Ol ('I "1 2 R ~ ~ sl:lJ 0 14_ : 3 8 3 ol:2J () 1 <- 3 8 ' 3l:3J u - 2 3 8 3 Jl:4o 1 2 : 3 8 3 7l:5J () 1 2 3 8 3 9l:ED 0 1 2 3 8 i 11:7l 0 1 2 3 8 4 3l:8J 0 1 2 3 8 5 41:9J 0 1 2 3 9 0 12:0! (l 2 ~ 39 " :o2:l,J v 2 : 3 C) (I :-2:2o Cl 2 3 g 1 12:3J c 3 9 : 32:40 0 alternates were primarily salespeople. I don't know whether I sent it to them. It would depend on what it said down below. I say copies to Asbestos Study Committee, delegates and alternates, if that's the case, that's where I sent them. Q Yes, sir. And those OSHA regulations that you described, the various levels of allowable exposure A Yes. Q -- they were called permissible exposure limits or PELs? A Yes. Q Do you recall OSHA saying quite clearly in those regulations that significant risk exists below that level? A I don't recall this. I --but I'm saying I am sure if you read it someplace and it is in my papers, that that was so, but I don't recall it right here. Q Now with respect to Chrysotile asbestos in 1973, Mr. Weaver indicated that not only could all commercial types of asbestos, including Chrysotile cause cancer, but that it could cause P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 76 t ; 9 : 1 8 :lo 0 " 9 : 2 0 :2o 0 3 9 : 2 4 :3J 0 3 9 2 6 :40 0 3 9 3 0 :SJ 0 3 9 : 3 1 :&l 0 3 9 : 3 7 :7o 0 3 9 : 3 7 :So 0 3 9 : 4 3 :9:l 0 3 9 4 6l:Cb 0 3 9 5 ol:lo 0 J 9 5 41:2o 0 t 4 0 0 3l:3J 0 4 0 o sl:4o 0 4 0 : 0 7l:5J 0 4 0 : 0 9l:&l 0 4 0 : 1 3l:7o 0 4 0 : 1 sl:8o 0 4 0 : 1 sl:9:l 0 4 0 : 2 22:Cb 0 4 0 : 2 42:lo 0 4 0 2 s2:2o 0 4 0 2 s2:3J 0 t 4 0 : 3 o2:4o 0 mesothelioma; correct? A I believe that's what he said. Q In fact, his exact words were, The most important item here is the incrimination of all major types of asbestos as causal agents for carcinoma, particularly mesothelioma, do you see that, sir? A I saw it I'm sure. I'm sure you are not getting it from the wind. There it is. Q Yes, sir. And isn't it true that Chrysotile asbestos was the type of asbestos used in most brake lining and clutch facings? A From my background, that's what I believe, yes. Q Okay. And in those friction products that use Chrysotile, wasn't in some instances almost half, if not more of that product, Chrysotile asbestos? A You got to be more specific about what you are saying. Is it more than half by volume or more than half by weight, or what? In other words Q Well, you tell me. Can you give me information about how much asbestos these brakes P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 77 4 0 : J l :111 C' contained? 1 2 4 0 : :; 1 :2(1 1) A I'm not sure. But by volume it is a lot 1 2 ~ 0 -' _c, :3~ 0 different than by weight. If you are going and =l 4 (J :' 9 :4l' 0 :5>4 0 4 1 ('' mixing up, putting your stuff in there, you add stuff by weight. But if you ace saying how much ,&,1 :' 4 (1 4 5 is in there by volume, it could be you could have 1 2 ,j 0 5 L ,7,, 0 a piece of product, forget friction materials, l ;' 4 0 : 5 d :8:: 0 where the product was 20 percent by weight but i t :91 2 4 l 0 j 0 could be 60 percent by volume, or something to 1 :' 4 1 u 51:0, J that affect. So read me your question again. l :' 4 1 : 1 11:1,-, c, Q I guess I was just trying to establish, 1-~ : 4 - : - :J1:2>J C> 1 '- 4 1 1 s1:3' 0 1 2 4 1 l 61:4:1 0 Mr. Drislane, that the asbestos brakes in that time frame contained Chrysotile? A Yes. 1 2 4 1 l .51:5~ 0 Q And there was a lot of Chrysotile in J 2 : 4 1 :' ol:6J 'J those brakes, i t wasn't just one percent? 1 2 4 l ;_: ~1:71 ) c A No. No. Correct. 1 2 4 1 2 41:81) (I Q Okay. Some of them were 40 to 50 percent 1 2 ,j 1 L 81:9:! 0 Chrysotile asbestos? 1 2 4 1 3 c2:0c () A By volume. j_ 2 4 1 3 12:1u u Q By volume? 2 4 1 ' Q:2o ' 2 4 1 "< c-2:3::< 0 A Okay. Q And you know that asbestos fibers are 4 l 3 c2:4J 0 microscopic? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 - ---------------------------------~------------------- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 78 4 ~ '~ 1 :1J 0 1 2 4 l 4 3 :2c, 0 A Yeah. They are quite visible. If you had asbestos fibers, they look like asbestos 1 2 ,-; 1 4 (:;, :3:: 0 "1 z 4 1 0 :4,, rJ 2 4 2 u 0 :5, fibers. You might not see an Lndividual fiber or something, but you see the fibers like snow. Q Back in 1973 when Mr. Weaver addressed 1 2 4 2 0 1 :61 0 l 2 4 2 0 5 :7') 0 the membership, did he tell them that there had been a considerable disregard of a number of :8:11 ~ 4~ 09 C) :9)1 0 4 ~~ 13 0 things involving worker safety, including labeling, monitoring, employee education, personal 1 0 4 ~ 1 61:0~ Cl ,, s1:1''1 L 4 ') 1 ~, 2~ ~--.. 42 ::' o1:2() (', 4:'~ ~ :' 41:31 l' 41:4)1 2 4~ ~ L (I 61:5)1 2 4 L ~ ~ II 1 2 4 L 3 o1:6~ 0 1 31:72 4 ~, 3 11 0 protection, waste disposals, and use of warning signs by some members of the asbestos products industry; did he raise that as an issue? A I don't recall. But if you are reading it from someplace, he probably did. Where is this? Can you point it out to me? Q Yes, sir. It would be in the red text. A The red text. (Reading.) Labeling and l2 4 3 91:8J ,,,~. employee education and waste disposal use of 12 4 11:9! (__) (Reading.) That's what he said. 1 2 4 ') 4 :2:0! () 1 2 4 ' 4 62:1; u 4 o22J1 2 : 5.~, (I 1 2 4 : 3 42:3:; 0 4 :' ~ 42:4u ,,') Q Didn't he say that not only was that being done by people who made asbestos products in general, but did that apply to the friction material industry? A I don't know. That's what he said. I PO. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 ----~---------------------------.------------------- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 79 4 :'\ 0 J :lr, () 1 2 4 3 0 3 :2(1 0 :3:1 0 L 4 3 : u ~-. 0 1 ,, 4 3 0 7 :4r_, 0 1 ,s,~ L 4 _l : 1 ~- 1 2 4 3 1 3 :6r 0 ,7,,1 L 43 6c 0 1 2 4 3 1 f_l :81 1 2 4 3 : 2 0 :9- 0 1 2 4 _, - 21:0 0 2c 4 :' : - d:lo " J _z. 4 .3 : 3 o1:2o 0 1 2 4 3 : j 11:31 0 1 2 4 3 3 :<1:4,) 0 1 2 4 3 : 3 sl:S1 0 have not memorized this whole text here. If that's what he said, that's what he said. Q And do you agree with that? A I don't know. I never held myself out as being an expert in that area. I don't know what other friction product manufacturers did. I don't know what other -- other manufacturers he is talking -- first of all, it is talking about asbestos products manufacturing in general, and then he says, "I believe this applies to friction material to some extent." I don't know what other friction materials manufacturers did. I don't believe -- I believe the Bendix was clean in that area. That's the only one I am familiar with. The only reason I am familiar with Bendix is l 2 4 J : 3 >1:6: ll 1 2 4 3 : 3 91:7o -J because I worked for them. Q When you say you believe they were clean, 1 2 4 3 4 31:8) 0 '1 2 4 4 31:9-J 0 1 2 4 3 : 4 :2:~ Cr 1 2 4 3 : ,, 2:1J 0 1 2 4 >l 0 72:2J 0 what do you mean? A I think they probably had the warning signs, and they probably did the labeling and the monitoring and the personal protection. They spent lots of money in this area. That's what I 1 2 4 4 0 92:3) 0 4 4 l 12:4o () mean. Q You -- you worked for Bendix; correct? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 -~--------------------------------,---------------- ~--- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 80 '4 4 ~ :1(1 0 1 2 4 4 1 ':J :2(1 0 1 2 4 4 1 8 :3: 0 ,,1 2 4 4 1 8 :4r' 2~ 4 4 ~ 0 :S:i c 1 2 4 4 2 4 :6J 0 1 2 4 4 ~ ~ :711 0 :81:::1 84 cj ~ <~ 0 1 2 : 4 4 3 0 :9 0 1 2 4 -1 3 o1:0:J u 2 ~ 44 1 31:111 v 1 ~ 4 4 3 71:21) 0 I <, 4 4 4 11:3J 0 1 2 4 4 4 31A) () 1 2 4 4 4 :o1:5J 0 1 2 4 4 :, o1:6J 0 2 1 4 s z1:7n ,) 1 2 4 4 2 41:8o G 1 2 4 s 0 11:9l 0 ,,1 2 4 : (l Q,Oo () ; 2 4 s 0 12:1o Cl '1 2 4 1 12:2o 0 2 ~ 4 s : 1 2:3:! 0 4 5 : 1 s2:4o u A That is correct. Q Do you get a pension from Bendix? A Yes. Q Do you own any stock in Bendix, or Allied Signal or Honeywell? A No. Do you want to know what my pension is? Q No, sir. A Not much. Q As Executive Director of the FMSI, you polled your members at one point to see whether they were complying with OSHA, and to see whether they were warning; didn't you? A We polled the members as to whether they interpreted certain things to mean, you know, did this mean you have to put a notice with every package you send out, or we polled them on what, how they interpreted some of the regulations. I believe is that what you are referring to? Q No. I am asking whether you ever conducted a survey to see whether people were labeling in accordance with OSHA? A That's the one where -- I believe that's the one where we asked the members whether they P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0 126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 ~ .1 ....- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 81 4 5 : 1 b :11' () :2rrl ? 4 5 : ,!_ 0 () :31 2 ~ 5 : ' ., 0 1 ' 4 5 : ~ 6 :4r. 'J 1 :5.'4 5 :~ 0 ~3 ~ ) 1 ;:: 4 :. .3 0 :6.' 0 ..1 - 4 5 j .3 :7r, 0 1 2 4 5 ' 7 :So 0 1 2 4 5 : 4 l :9: 0 1 2 4 5 4 .<1:0 0 4 5 4 6l:1u J --1 2 4 = 4 s1:2CI 0 ~ ~ 4 5 5 z1:3r' 0 l :' 4 G D 11:4o 0 1 2 4 6 0 sLS:: 1 2 4 6 0 71:6~, D ~ 2 4 6 l 11:7} 2 1 2 4 E 1 :-.1:81 0 l 2 4 b . s1:9) u 1 2 4 G : ? c2:0; u l 2 4 6 ? 42:1,J D l 2 : 4 :' s2:2o 0 l 2 : 4 G 3 32:3J (} 4 6 : 3 J2:4r! 0 were labeling their products. Can you get me to the piece of paper that says it, and I will give you the answer, all right? Q It is right there, sir. A So, obviously, yes, if that's what you are talking about, this was the copy of the, you know, some people did not interpret some of the requirements of the OSHA regulations to mean that they are going to label shipments to replacement manufacturers to the after market. Some of them didn't feel. We are asking them how do they interpret the rules. The rules if you read them, you got to interpret them. Rules are not hard and fast. They -- you have to interpret them. So, yes, we did ask them. Q Just for the record, this is FMSI 02801. And take a look at this with me, Mr. Drislane. Does this indicate to you that you sent out 25 requests November of '72, and that about a month later you had only heard from 11 of your members, and of the 11 that you heard from only one of them was labeling replacement shipments? A At that point, yes. Q And you knew as of 12/6 of '72 that ten P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 82 t 4 G 4 3 :1o o 4 6 4 5 :2o o 4 6 1 8 :3:1 0 4 6 5 o :4o o 4 6 : 5 2 :5:1 0 4 7 0 0 :ED o 4 7 0 1 :7o o 4 7 0 3 :So 0 ,; 7 0 5 :9:l 0 4 7 0 71:0:l 0 4 7 o 91:1o o 4 7 1 31:2o o t 4 7 : 1 61:3:1 0 4 7 1 s1:4o o 4 7 2 21:5:1 0 4 7 : 2 41:6J 0 4 7 : 2 s1:7o o 4 7 : 3 31:8o 0 4 7 : 3 51:9:1 o 4 7 3 92:0:l 0 4 7 4 ::2:1o o 4 7 : 4 s2:2o o 4 7 5 22:3:1 0 t 4 7 5 42:40 0 out of the 11 people were selling or supplying asbestos brakes with no label on them? A What do you mean? Q In other words, if only one was warning, then the other ten weren't, and you realized that? A Yeah. Yeah. Q And didn't that -- wasn't that problematic for you to know? A No. Because people were trying to interpret the thing, and as far as the label replacement and all that stuff, they were given the wording on the thing. If they did, if they, you know, we will not divulge the results by the individual party because we knew people like you would be around later on, you know, to go and say did they know this or did they not. So the fact that we got 11 out of the 20 sent out, I think that was a pretty good response rate. Q In fact, here on 2800, which is your Bu 11 e t in 4 6 2 o f De c e mb e r 6th , 1 9 7 2 , you go on t o say that 25 questionnaires were sent out, 11 replies were received, replies were received from a reasonable cross section of the membership, as the replies were confidential, the forms submitted P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 83 4 8 0 0 :1.' () by the members have been destroyed, do you see 1 ~ I, 8 0 ~ :2~ 0 that? 1 ~ 4 8 :1 l :3:: A Yeah. ~ ~ 48 ~ 3 :4,, ,, Q That's what you are just talking about; 1 c 1 8 5 :5r u right? 1 ::' 4 8 0 ) :6 0 A Yes, because we told them that we were 1 2 4 8 0 q :7: u not going to divulge, to get response, people 1 :&L 4 8 3 i) wouldn't respond to this thing if they have :9':= ~ 48 1 C something in the file saying what they said in 1 2 4 8 1 s1:0:1 () response. 1 - 4 8 l sl:1' 0 -1 2 4 8 : .., ol:2.l 1 ~ 4 R 2 ,Jl:} () Q In other words, your members who were not warning didn't want a record of that and they wanted these replies to be confidential and to be 61:4u8~ 4 ~ " j ,2 1 R o1:51 ~ destroyed so that down the road in a situation like this I couldn't find out who was warning and 1 2 4 8 3 11:6! 0 who wasn't, is that an accurate summary of what 2 4 2 3 <1:7'' '-' you just told me? l 2 4 p, ~~ ~1:&: 0 A Yes. But that was the way we were going l 2 4 8 4 s1:9J 0 ,,1 2 4 8 z2:0:J to get responses. If we didn't do that, we wouldn't get any responses. 1 2 4 8 5 z2:1J 0 Q Do you agree with me that the FMSI never 1 2 4 9 : 0 c;2:2J 0 distributed any information i t had about the 1 2 4 g : 0 72:3o 0 hazards of asbestos to members of the general 4 g 0 92:4o 0 public? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0 126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 - --- --------------------------~-------------------- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 84 4 g J 9 :111 () A I don't believe we circulated stuff to 1 2 : 4 9 1 1 :21_, u the general public. Our stuff was sent to the 12 49 3 :3:1 0 manufacturers and the members, and it was up to =1 4 9 1 b :41 1) 5~ 9 : ~ 1) them to go and distribute it to their customers. Q And, obviously, some of them weren't '1 2 4 9 1 :6' Cl 2 4 g 3 l :7-, ~ doing that? A Perhaps. l 2:4 3 3 :&1 c Q Do you believe that anyone working on =1 4 g 3 "' :91 0 1 2 4 9 .3 71:()1 1'1 brakes, asbestos brakes needs protection? MR. HARKINS: At what time are you 1 2 4 9 :1 91:1: ;J asking about his belief? 1 l.. 4 9 4 ~1:2: D 1 ~ 4 y 4 31:3) u THE WITNESS: I think they probably should use a mask or something, but I -- 2 ~ 4 c; 4 s1:4o v you are talking about I believe? 1 2 4 9 4 61:51 0 BY MR. DeLUCA: 2 4 9 4 El:61 0 Q Yeah. l 2 4 C) : 4 H1:71 n A If I were doing a brake job, I wouldn't 1 2 4 c, : 5 21:81 u be bothered with all the junk myself, but I can 1 ., 4 9 5 41:9J , see where other people put a respirator on or and 1 2 5 0 0 12:0! (I use a vacuum around the thing. You walk into a 1 2 5 fl : 0 :2:1> n brake shop today and maybe they -- I don't know 1 2 5 0 : 0 :2:2J 0 what they do because half the stuff has no longer l 2 5 il : 1 12:3:1 0 got asbestos in it. 5 () 12:4o u ~ Q But half of it does? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438~0 126 Troy (518) 283~5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 - - - ~--~------------------------------------------ Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 85 5 0 l 5 :1rJ u A Today? :21>2 ~ 5u l6 v Q Yes, sir. :31l 2 5 0 l :~ l' A I doubt it. 1 '- 5 0 l 8 :41) u :5Jl 2 5 0 ~ 0 0 Q Are you aware that they still continue to sell asbestos containing brakes in the United l 2 50 4 :6) 0 States in 2002? l 2 5 0 ~ E :71 0 ~ A I don't know that. I am not aware of it, :8::l 2 50 8~ ~ 0 no. l 2 5 0 ~ 8 :9) u Q Have you ever worked with brakes? ~"2 "-~ 3 o1:0J " " 2 5 (I J 11:11) v' 2. s ., 3 91:2c, v L 5 [) 4 31:31 c ,,1 2 5 4 J1:4u l' A Yes, when I worked at Bendix. Q You were working on the manufacture of them. Have you ever changed the brakes on your car? A Not by myself, no. 1 2 5 0 L 31:5) 0 Q You had mentioned Dr. Selikoff earlier. 1 2 5 0 {; 61:61 n You had had the opportunity to meet him on a few 1 2 5 0 ~-. c1:7':J 0 occasions; didn't you? l 2 5 0 5 ;-l:8J u A Yes. 2 5 0 s ~1:9J 0 Q And you even went over and visited him at 42:0:2 5 C1 :.:-1 () the Mt. Sinai School of Medicine in New York; did l 2 5 l u J2:1o o you not? l 2 5 1 0 :<2:2o () A Yes. 1 2 5 l 0 :2:3J 0 Q And Dr. Selikoff came to you and was 5 1 0 72:41 I) seeking some information from you, when I say P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 -- -- --- ------------------------~-----1------------------ Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 86 5 l l 1 :1J 0 1 2 s 1 1 ~. :21 l 2 ~. 1 1 6 3: D 1 2 5 1 1 6 :4:: [) :5cl 2 5 1 2 0 (_J 1 :6i2 : 5 1 - \:) "- - 1 ., - 8 :71) :C 1 2 5 1 _, 1 :8n 0 1 2 5 1 ? ~ :9) 0 12 5 - 11:0).~ 1_1 "1 2 1 1-'. : h 1 4 11:11 (I ~ ~1:21 () 1 ~ 5 1 4 61:3:1 0 1 2 5 1 s o1:4: 'I 1 2 5 1 5 21:5l () 1 2 -5 ~ 0 o1:6J 0 1 2 -" 0 11:711 J 2 :) 'J 11:81 L: 1 2 5 - 0 31:9! 0 l 2 5 " 0 -!2:o-J (~I 1 2 5 : D s2:b IJ 1 2 5 -- 1 12:2J 0 1 2 5 - 1 c2:3:: (l s2:4o5 ,_ : 1 -~ "you," I mean the Institute, about what the Institute knew about the hazards of asbestos brakes; correct? A I can't say that's correct. I don't know what Dr. Selikoff came back to me. Dr. Selikoff had a -- somebody working with them, Mt. Sinai, forget the guy's name. And they took I described to them how people serviced brakes and all that, and described the difference between the certain fixed anchor brake and adjustable anchor brake and all that stuff, and he wrote the thing up completely screwy, and I wrote him back and told him that you misinterpreted what I said. But never about what's the danger of brakes or asbestos and all that stuff. It was about how you go and service certain types of brakes and all that stuff. Q Sir, you are describing an interaction you had with Dr. William Nicholson of Mt. Sinai? A That's the gentleman's name. Q Okay. My question to you is relates to Dr. Selikoff. When Dr. Selikoff came to you, did you share with Dr. Selikoff any of the comments that Mr. Weaver made? P.O. Box 12459 Albany. NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 87 5 ~ 1 8 :1<) n A Now you will have to stop here. :2<)1 ~ 5? ~ ~ 0 Doctor -- I don't believe Dr. Selikoff ever came s :311 2 ~ ~ ~ ~ l! over to my office. :41sl 2 L 4~ 0 :S;1 2 5 ? : 2 b D Q Did he contact you on the phone or in writing? l2 5 2 6 :6J 0 A Yes, he may have. He may have phoned me. 2~ "0 :< 0 :7,-, ,, 2 5 L J 0 :8) c Q You went to his office? A I went to his office, yes. l 2 b ~ ,'I 1 :9:) l' Q Either when you were there at his office 1 2 5 :' 3 =1:01 C< or when he contacted you by phone or by letter, 1 2 5 ,, i 71:1') n did you ever share with Dr. Selikoff any of the "1~ : !::; 7 11:2') 0 ] 2 5 ' 4 .:1:3J 0 o1:4Jl 2 5 ~- c' () 1 2 5 L J :~1:5-~ 0 information the Institute had on the hazards of asbestos as reflected in Mr. Weaver's address, which is Exhibit 3? A The answer is no. Now stop. We went to '1 2 5 : () ;1:~ () "1 2 : 5 0 :;1:7<J 0 2 5 3 v c,l:8o v Dr. Selikoff's office because he was studying a cohort brake repair people, I believe that work for Sears someplace in Rockland County or 2 5 3 0 91:9:! 0 something like that. They were running a study. 1 2 5 3 : J2:0J 0 Apparently got some money from NIOSH or somebody 1 2 5 ' : l :2:1J 0 J 2 5 j ~ s2:2o () else to study this. And we went over there, as I recall, to find out what the results were, and we 2:3J1 2 :, i ~ " 0 never did get the results. My understanding is 5 3 : 2 42:4J 0 the results were was they didn't have the results P,O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 --- --- ---------,---------------------~---------------~---- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 88 5 3 : 0 8 :1J 0 1 L 5 3 : 3 l :2:J 0 1 2 5 3 : 3 5 ,}; 0 they wanted, so they never published it. But they never asked for my input on the thing. I don't think Bill or Selikoff asked for anything on that. 1 :' 5 3 3 :41' 0 :SJ1 2 : ~) 3 4 3 .J 2 J :3 :6> 0 2 s 3 5 0 :7'1 c-', ~ ,,1 2 .< 5 4 :8) 0 :9!1 -0 5 4 () 1 0 ",:. 4 0 31:01 0 :' 5 4 n :,l:lJ [I 1 l. : 5 4 0 91:2: 0 1 L ::, 4 1 11:31 () 12 54 1 :1:41 ., .~ .l 2 54 1 sl:S1 , v 2 s 4 l 61:61 c l 2 5 4 ~ 21:7'J (j 1 2 5 4 2 41:8! 0 1 2 5 4 2 61:9! () Q I want to show you something you said back in 1999 about these warnings. I have it up on the screen for you. And you said, "We were trying to educate people about the hazards of asbestos in a book that they might look at. I thought we were being good people." Do you remember saying that? A I most likely did. I don't dispute that. Q Who were the people you were trying to educate? A I would say the people who worked on brakes in the brake shops . In other words, the guy at you go to the automotive brake shop and he might be grinding some brake linings or something like that, we are trying to educate him that some care is called for in dealing with these brake 1 2 5 4 3 :2:01 0 2 5 4 .'l :2:1J CJ 1 2 5 4 : J 72:2J () l 2 5 4 3 92:3~ 0 s '1 4 l2:4o 0 linings. Q So, sir, wouldn't you agree that good people would have mentioned cancer? A You are going to keep on harping on this thing here on the cancer. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Cancer was obviously Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 - - -- - ------------------------------------------------~~~----------------------------------- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 89 :14~:., 0 1 2 ~) 4 :2c 0 3J ~ 5 4 ::, () u ,, :4c'~ ~ 4 54 " " L 5 5 0 l :5 c "1 2 5 0 5 :6:, 0 L 5 5 0 7 :7r, () 1 ~ 5 5 0 9 :&: 0 12 5 = 1 :91 0 ~ J 2 5 5 ., =1:0:: u J - ' ::, .-, ~1:1 0 1 2.._: 5 5 3 o1:2 t) 5 5 3 11:3 iJ 1 2 5 5 3 J1:4c D 2 5 OJ 4 11:5, 0 s1:6J2 5 5 4 ~ '-' 5 5 4 s1:7r: 2 J 2 5 5 5 o1:8:' ,. 1 2 5 5 5 21:91 0 1 L 5 5 5 42:0:: 0 1 2 5 6 0 12:11 0 1 2 5 6 () :2:2: 1 2 5 6 0 72:}1 0 5 6 l :2:4 0 the reason for the thing, but I don't think we want to go and say "this causes cancer." You can't even do that today on -- well you can do it, I guess, on cigarettes. I wasn't going to go and shout the word "cancer." I wasn't going to say "buyer in place" or something like that. Q Why is that? Would it have been bad for business for the industry? A I don't know. Q It is a reasonable conclusion to draw; isn't it? A It's the conclusion that you obviously have drawn. Q Let me show you the book for 2002. Was Exhibit 13 in Mr. Laycock's June 2002 deposition. A Okay. Q Read that for me. A "Danger, contains asbestos fibers, avoid creating dust. Cancer and lung disease hazards." That was the evolution of time. In other words, the first warning was we didn't have all this information. This is the warning nowadays. This is also probably the warning handed down by OSHA. Q No, sir. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 You had that information in Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 -- ----------------------------~------------------ Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 90 :lrr::> b 1 8 '< 41 2 5 6 L :2r) 0 1 2 s 6 : 2 6 :3-, 1 2 :, 6 : 2 8 :4:: 0 5~ ~J 6 3 0 0 1 :' 5 6 J 1 :6' J 2 s b ' 1 :7! 1 2 5 0 J 5 :81 0 :9J<- 5 6 3 I (j 2 5 6 3 91:01 Cl 1 2 5 6 4 11:1.) 0 1 2_ 5 6 4 :<1:2] 0 45 6 : 51:3; 0 1 2 5 6 4 61:41) Cl ,, 1 <- 5b 5 o1:5' 0 z1:6Jr 2 : J b : 5 rl cl " 2 : 5 6 : 41:71J ,, l 2 5 ' 0 o1:8J (' 1 2 5 7 (I c:l:9J 0 1 2 5 7 0 12:0J 0 1 2 5 7 0 12:1~ 0 1 2 5 7 0 Q:2; Cl 1 2 5 7 0 :2:3J 0 5 7 : 0 ::2:4o 0 1973. You just chose not to publish it? A That's what you say. Q Do you agree with that? A Danger, contains asbestos fibers, yes, avoid creating dust, cancer and lung disease hazards, yes. Q You knew all that in 1973? A I did not know that. Q The Institute knew all that? A Institute members may have known it. People like JM and Raybestos, and others, who were one of the leaders of this thing, they knew it. Q Sir, everybody that attended that conference in Vail knew it, and that included you? MR. HARKINS: He didn't finish his prior question or prior answer. You interrupted him. MR. DeLUCA: He can tell me that. MR. HARKINS: Well I will tell you that. MR. DeLUCA: Can you read his mind, counselor? MR. HARKINS: I could hear him and I could tell he was still speaking when you P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 91 ,, 1]7 : :1~ i) began a question. :31 :' ::, 7 0 0 u BY MR. DeLUCA: 1 ;' 5 7 l l :31 u Q By all means, please finish your answer, l :' 5 7 l l :4c~ ,, :5:'2 ~ 7 13 ,-, Mr. Drislane. A Look, I am 79 years old. I can't s 7 1 6 :6: remember where I parked the car. I can't remember "l ~ - 7 1 :::: :7c- c :81 2 5 'I LD () the last statement I made. Okay? You are younger. You can remember these things. I can't. 1 2 5 8 u ::> :9- () What did I say? 1 2 5 8 i) 71:0 0 Q Well have her read it back for you. 1 2 5 8 1 11:111 0 A All right. 1 ~ : ::. 8 l 31:2(1 0 ,, 1 58 31:3:, 0 (The Reporter read back the requested portion.) c s 1 3l:4r"J BY MR. DeLUCA: 1 2 5 8 l 31:5:- ~ Q Please continue with the answer you were 1 2 5 8 1 .:1:6::1 0 giving, sir. 12 58 .:1:7'' I) A You are going to have to get a younger 1 2 ~- H 1 sl:8~ l) person to come here and handle this. I can't. 1 2 5 R L 21:9- IJ Why don't you ask some kind of a question I can 1 L _c, 8 3 o2:():. 2 s 3 3 :2:1(1 ,-, ~ give you a direct answer on? Q I believe I -- 2 ::, 8 3 Q:2u A What do I know that I -- at that time. I 2~ 5 8 3 cQ:}, don't remember what I knew at that time. I don't 5 8 : 3 92:41 think we believed that it was a -- that a sterner P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 92 's 8 4 :11, 1 ;:: : ::, 8 4 5 :21) 0 warning was called for than the one that was given at the beginning, and that was based on the 12 52 8 :3:: 0 experts that I had, the people that worked on the 1 ;:: :::, 8 :::, 0 :4: committee. I didn't know anything in this l 2 = 8 s ;:: :S: 0 "- 9 : 0 0 :& D : s 9 J -' ,7,, :8)- 2 59 u c> ,-. particular stuff. I was being schooled in this, you might say. What happened here these here are the gradual, the gradual development of the problems with cancer and with asbestos. I didn't 2~ s 9 c 9 :9J know this stuff at the beginning. I didn't even l 2:5 know asbestos was a problem. I didn't know asbestos was a concern when I started off with FMSI. Q You had to know it was a problem when 1 2 s 9 : 1 sl:4~~ o they formed the Asbestos Study Committee in 1971? 2 5 9 : :::: 21:5~ 0 A That's correct. 1 2 : s 9 : 2 ::1: 6J c; Q So from that point forward you recognize 2s " 2 5 9 3 ll:8J ,, l 2 5 9 3 31:9) 0 that you knew asbestos was a hazard? A Asbestos caused cancer, but, yes. You know what levels and all that stuff, I didn't know 1 2 5 g ~' ~2:C)J 0 '1 2 5 9 : :2:1; 0 1 2 5 9 : -' 92:2.: (J 1 2 5 9 : 4 :2:3J 0 that. Q Mr. Weaver said in his address that to him labeling all containers or packages of asbestos containing friction material is the very 5 q 4 ::2:40 I) least the industry can do to fulfill moral P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 - - - - - - - - - ----- -----------------------~---------------~--- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 93 ~. 9 : 4 8 :1~ 0 obligation to its customers, their employees and "1 L s 9 ,,~ :2L' :3;2 5 9 5 1 (' ~ the public at the same time conform with minimum requirements of the Occupational Safety and Health 1 3 0 l) 0 l :4(' (J Act. Did you agree with Mr. Weaver that labeling 1 3 0 0 5 :5:, 0 was the very least industry could do to fulfill :6l 3 0 () : 0 7 0 its moral obligation? l 3 0 0 0 9 :7r' u A I never sat there in judgment of Ike 1 3 : 0 0 l 1 :&, ,-) Weaver. Ike Weaver presented his case and he was :9>3 : 0 c 1 5 ~--:' more skilled in it than I was. And I just acted l 3 : J0 ti1:0> \) ~ as the secretary reporting the information and l 3 : 0 0 ~ cl:1.> (! putting i t together. What I thought in terms of 14. : () 0 : 2 41:2 0 1 3 : 0 0 .. tiLl 0 whether it was actually caused cancer and all at the beginning, I don't know what . I relied on the 1 3 : 0 0 ~ s1:4() 0 ..l 3 : 0 3 31:5> J people in the committee, but he was one voice. The other people on the committees did not 3 : 0 0 :' s1:6J G necessarily agree with him. 1 3 : 0 0 3 71:7>1 (\ Q And is that why cancer wasn't mentioned 1 3 : [) () 3 91:8> () in there in 1977? 1 3 : 0 0 : 4 '1:9J (J A I can't answer why, why something 1 3 : 0 0 4 12:CtJ 0 happened. 3 : 0 l) : 4 :2:1:) c Q You attended the Asbestos Study Committee 1 3 : 0 0 4 '12:2J 0 meetings? 1 3 : u ll : ,; :2:31 u A Yes, I did. I acted as this young lady 0 Cl : 4 22:4c 0 here is acting, I was the secretary and I took P.O. Box 12459 Albany (5 18) 438~0 126 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 ___________________________________________- ____.. Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 ,. Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 94 :10 0 5 ') () down notes. 1 3 : 0 0 5 4 :2c Cl Q Okay. And while she is here as a neutral 1 :3:~ 3 : 0 r~, ,J c participant, you were employed by FMSI? 1 3 : ,, l 0 I :4c~ 0 A Correct. '1 3 : 0 1 0 :S.~ I) :6:1 3 : () 1 0 5 0 Q And did you ever have a time in your employment whereas you are sitting there you are :71,1 3 : 0 1 () 9 ') thinking to yourself, you know, we are just not l 3 : 0 1 1 3 :&1 doing the right thing, did you ever feel that way? -, 3 : 0 1 : l 5 :91 A I never felt that way. I felt we were ,, 1j : r 1 3 : 01 r 61:01 .. 41:11 1'1 helping get out the information on the asbestos problem. l ..;;,. : 0 1 41:2: 0 Q You were being good people? 1 j : 0 1 ~ G1:3 J 1 3 : 0 1 -~ s1:4n ,, A That's what I thought. hindsight. I didn't have J 3 : 0 1 -' o1:SJ 0 1 3 : J 1 _'i 11:6) 0 MR. DeLUCA: MR. PIAZZA: Let's take a break. The time is now one I 3 : 1 3 : 4 61:71 () o'clock, we will take a pause in the 1 3 : r 3 : 4 e1:&; 0 testimony of Mr. Drislane. 1 3 : 1 3 : 5 o1:9; 0 (A short recess was taken. '-1 3 : 1 c. 42:0J c 1 3 : 1 ~ 0 :o2:1o 0 MR. PIAZZA: Time is now 1:12, we will resume the testimony of 1 3 : 1 ~ 0 ::2:21) (J Mr. Drislane. 13: ~ 4 o =23J o BY MR. DeLUCA: 1 4 c 9.2:4o cJ Q Mr. Drislane, good afternoon, again. I P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 95 1 4 b :111 u want to talk to you a l i t t l e bit more about 13 : 14 0 :21 warnings on asbestos containing friction :3::3 4 :1 : ~ ~ c. I) materials. Who do you believe had more 1 3 : 1 4 ~ G Ar: CJ information about the hazards of asbestos in the 13 : 14 8 :SJ early '70s, the FMSI and its members, or consumers 3 : 1 4 3 .} :6J 0 ~ who would do their own brake work? 1 3 : 1 4 4 1 :7<:1 A If you got two zeros there. I would 1 3 : l ,.; ' :8J (1 ,g-,1 3 : 1 4 4 0 1~1 think people like Johns-Manville knew more about it than anybody else because they were the biggest 1 3 4 J o1:0: 0 asbestos. They were members of the Institute, so ~ "1 3 1 4 ;l:L Cl w : 1 "' D 11:2J 0 j : 1 ;, s1:3~ J I suppose by that connection and the Institute knew more about it than the people out in the field. 1 3 1 = 0 71:41) () 1 3 1 5 II 91:5J (1 Q And you used Johns-Manville as an example, but your answer would be the same for 1 3 : 1 ~. 31:6J 0 ~ other companies like Raybestos; correct? 1 3 : 1 b : 1 51:71 1"1 A Raybestos was next in knowledge to 1 3 : ~ 5 : 1 G1:8J 0 Johns-Manville, I would say. 1 3 : 1 c' 1 81:9J J Q How about Bendix, they would know also? 3 : 1 ~ :2 n2:0J " 1 3 : 1 5 '- 42:1o 0 A They would know, but they did not have they didn't have a big staff like these other 3 : 1 ~ L s2:2o n companies. They didn't have, to my knowledge, at 3 1 3 c12:3J 0 ,,1 3 :Q:4o D the local level environmental or workplace stuff like that. Whereas both Raybestos and JM did. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 - ------- Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 96 :lr1 5 : l g (l Q You are unable to tell this jury when 1 3 : l 5 4 3 :2,~, 0 Bendix first knew of the hazards of asbestos; are 1 3 : l = ::Y, () 1 3 1 5 4 8 :4cr 0 s1 3 J 5 : 4 8 0 you? A Q No, I'm not. Nor would you be able to even tell them, :61 3 : 1 5 5 c iJ for instance, when Ernie Martin knew of the 13 : 1G ~3 : 1E :7u0cl ~ 0 ,, :Srr 1 hazards of asbestos? MR. MENDRZYCKI: Object to the form. 1 3 : 1 6 0 7 :9J 0 THE WITNESS: No. That's true. 1 3: 1 6 o 'l:0:1 o BY MR. DeLUCA: 1 3 : 6 : 0 71:11 0 Q His name was Ernie; right? 1 ~ : 1 6 0 91:2o 0 A That's correct. l 3 : 1 6 : 1 11:3J J Q With respect to warnings you have said 3~ : 1 6 31:4<J ,~ v before that if you see a big warning sign on 1 3 : 1 6 l 61:5; 0 something, you might not buy i t , just as a general 1 3 : 1 6 : rl 21:61 0 matter? 1 3 : 1 6 : c 21:7') 0 A I think some of my members felt that way. l 3 : ~ 6 : ., d:8J 0 Q And you can understand the thinking 1 3 : 1 6 r, s1:9J D behind that though; correct? 3 : 1 E 3 12:0:) " A Yeah, particularly at the early stages 1 3 : 1 6 3 72:11) 0 when people didn't realize there was a problem. 3 : 1 6 4 Q:2,J 0 Q And do you think that people who had that 13 16 c ,I ,12:3J 0 belief that warnings could hurt sales were 1 0 12:4o 0 concerned more about profits than safety? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 97 l li 3 :111 ,, :2,,1 3 : 1 'I 07 rl ,, 13 : 1 0 9 :31 1 3 7 1 :4:: 0 ~ :51 3 1 I 1 5 0 l 3 : 1 7 1 6 :6' v ~ 3 : 1 ') l R :71 ,_ 1 3 : 1 7 2 0 :8! 0 l 3:l 2 2 :9:1 0 13 : 1 L s1:0J (I '1 3 1 7 11:1J 0 L.J. : l 7 3 :J1:2J 0 1 _j : 1 7 3 s1:3J 0 l 3 : l 7 3 91:4o Cl 3 : 1 'I 4 3l:5J c' 1 3 : 1 7 4 s1:6J u 1 3 : 1 7 4 s1:7o 0 1 3 : 1 7 4 s1:8J 0 "'1 3 : 1 'I c1:9:1 0 1 3 : ~ 8 0 o2:0J 0 3 : 1 8 () 12:1: C) l3 ;;:; ~ 0 :Q:2~ 0 1 3 1 8 0 Q:3:; 0 24 A That's a tough one because we didn't really realize, or I don't think the members realized there was a problem, so why are you going to go around saying dangerous asbestos here and all that when nobody knew at that time that it was? I say when they didn't accept the fact, maybe one or two of them did know. I don't know. Q At what time are you talking, sir? A I am talking about the early '70s. I s t art e d wi t h FM S I , I be 1 i eve , in 1 9 7 0 . '71 is when the first Asbestos Study Committee hit. I hit this damn thing right at the very beginning, but I didn't know anything about it. I never considered asbestos a hazard. I worked with it when I was at Bendix. Q Bendix never told you asbestos was dangerous? A I don't think they knew. Q All right. Assuming that they did know? A I won't make that assumption because I just don't think that they did. MR. MENDRZYCKI: Objection. Objection. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 98 1 R o 7 :l1. D BY MR. DeLUCA: 3 : 1 8 ,. 7 :2.1 ~ Q I am asking you just for the purposes of 3 : 1 8 1 3 :}1 0 my question to assume that they did know, wouldn't :4(11 3 : l 8 ~ 'J 0 you have wanted to know that? 1 3 : 1 8 0 ? :5:> 1] A Not particularly. I -- we have more 1 3 : 1 R : 4 :61 ,1 things going on than just asbestos and whatnot. 1 3 : l 8 : ? 8 :7: 0 You get hit by a car. I thought we were -- I :8::1 3 8~ 3~ ,) 1 3 1 8 3 3 ,g, 0 thought we at Bendix were doing a good job developing good quality brake linings to stop cars 3 : 1 3 :< :1:0! v safely and all that. But the fact that they had 1 3 : 1 8 3 il:1J (1 asbestos in them, I didn't think had anything to 1 .J. : 1 8 4 11:2o 0 do. l 5 1 8 4 11:3) 0 Q I am just saying 1 3 1 8 4 ~1:4J 0 A And I don't think that they did. 1 3 8 4 ~-l:Sl 0 ~ Q And you haven't reviewed any of their 1 3 l 9 : 2 :1:6; u documents on that issue? 13 :19 :1:7) ll .3 : 1 0 L 61:8) , v ~ A Unless they were brought up at one of the depositions . 13 : 19 s1:9J () Q Sir, I want to show you a letter dated l 3 1 9 : 3 c2:0J 0 Sept e mb e r 12 t h , 1 9 6 6 . 1 3 'J : 3 c2:1o 0 MR. MENDRZYCKI: I am just going to 1 3 : ~ g : 3 :Q:2: 0 object to this letter being shown on the l 3 : 1 9 :l :2:3J D screen. There has been no foundation 3 -12:4o 0 established. Object to the authenticity P.O. Box 12459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 _______________________________ __________________Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 , Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 99 : 9 J 9 :1 0 of this letter at all. 1 3 : 1 9 4 1 :2c, MR. DeLUCA: The objection is noted. : 3 : 1 9 4 1 :3:1 c BY MR. DeLUCA: 1 3 1 9 4 3 :4o CJ Q I am going to show you a letter dated 1 3 1 9 4 5 :51 0 September 12th, 1966 from E. A. Martin, you know :61c] 3 : 1 9 ~") 0 him to be Ernie Martin from Bendix, to Mr. Noel 1 3 1 9 5 4 :7,, Hendry of Canadian Johns-Manville, do you know 1 3 L 0 0 0 :8J Mr. Hendry or did you know of him? 1 3 : ~ 0 : 0 1 :9J 0 ,,1 3 : 2 0 n ~1:0 A No. I heard the name. Q All right. And I want to call your 1 3 : 2 0 0 9l:ll) u attention to this last paragraph here, and recall, l _.t: -, c 1 11:2n ~ please, this is from September of '66. Can you ~ j 0L 1 51:3! I~ I read that, sir? 1 3 2 0 1 6l:4u 0 A Yes. 13 : 20 sl:SJ 0 ~ Q It says, "My answer to the problem is if 1 3 : 2 0 : "- :'1:6J 0 6l:7Jl 3 : 2 () : ~ 0 you have enjoyed a good life while working with asbestos products, why not die from it." Now -- 13 : 2 2 sl:8J 0 A That's very funny. l 3 :20 _, il:9J ., u Q It is, isn't it? It is not funny to the l 3 : L 0 3 s2:Ch c 1 3 : 2 0 3 92:1') () wife of my client. Mrs. Cutright lost her husband when he was 32. She doesn't find this document 1 3 : 2 0 : 4 122J u funny. Why do you? 1 3 2 () : 4 ~2:30 u A It is a stupid thing to say. : 2 0 4 t2:4o ~ Q On the part of Ernie Martin? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 -----~----- --------------------.----------------- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 100 : .:2 c; 4 8 :11) ,-- 1 3 : 2 IJ ~ D :2u o 1 3 2 0 :, ::: :3) (! 1 3 o 2 :4o o l 3 2 1 D l :51 0 1 3 2 1 0 7 :6J () 1 3 2 1 0 9 :7: 0 1 3 2 I l 1 :8) 0 l 3 : 2 1 1 5 :9! D - 3 : - I l s1:0J ,_, 3 : 2 1 L u1:1'J ,_- --l 3 : 2 1 2 41:21) () 1" --' : 2 3 11:3) 0 13 : 2- 31:4) 0 1 3 : 2 l 4 c--1:5-J 0 _, I 3: 1 4 :-1:62 () I 3 : 2 1 4 el:7~ () 1 3 : 2 1 5 o1:& (l 1 3 : 2 -, u 11:9! J -1 3 : 0 Q,OJ () I 3 : 2 2 () ~2:1o 0 1 3 : 2 ~ 0 72:2o 0 1 3 : 2 -- 0 9.2:3:1 0 2 " I :L2:4c D A Yeah. Q Okay. I can appreciate that. A You enjoyed a good life to work with asbestos, but why not die for. I mean, come on. Q That's a callous attitude towards human life; isn't it? A If that was seriously his attitude, yes. Q Let's put that aside for a second and let me revisit the question as to when Bendix may or may not have known that there was something wrong with asbestos. Here is a letter from '66, would you agree that at least Ernie Martin knew there was something wrong with asbestos in 1966? A It appeared that he did. I never knew this. Q Do you think if a company like Bendix was aware that there was something wrong with asbestos in 1966, and they should of passed that on to the consumer? MR. MENDRZYCKI: Objection to form. THE WITNESS: If, if they had known this, they should pass it along, I don't know that. What did Hendry say? Did Hendry say asbestos is carcinogen or P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 101 something? What did he say? Do you have 13 : 1 <5 :2: D that? 13::'2 1G::Xo BY MR. DeLUCA: ~3 : 22 :4u u 1 3 : ~ 2 2 1 ::X_, D Q Here is his response, Mr. Drislane. A This is Noel Hendry back to Ernie? 1 3 2 2 2 b :6J () Q Right. S e p t e mb e r 2 9 t h , 1 9 6 6 , he s a i d , " I ' :7:1 3 ~ <. l () l 3 : ., ;' 3 3 :8.< " :9-1l 3 : ') ;' 3s G suppose we have to bear with people who have nothing better to do than to create alarm, but we are not alarmed and we live and sleep with the 1 3 : 2 2 3 91:0:: 0 stuff." That was his response. 1 3 : 2 ;: 4 11:1: 0 MR. MENDRZYCKI: That is not his 1 ~= 2 2 4 31:2c 'J whole response. If you read the whole 3 : ') 4 s1:3: " letter, you see his whole response. 13 : 4 61:41) c~ THE WITNESS: I really know nothing 1 3 : 2 2 4 s1:5J 0 1 3 : 2 . 5 o1:6J 0 about this, the letter or -- looking back with hindsight, it was a very callous 1 3 : "- ~ s 41:7:: 0 thing for Ernie to say, but looking back 1 3 : 2 3 Cl o1:8J CJ with hindsight, I think he was just l 3 : 2 3 0 11:9J 0 trying to joke. 1 3 L 3 u :Q:w u BY MR. DeLUCA: l 3 2 3 0 :Q:L 0 Q You never discussed this with him, did 1 3 : 2 :; D c2:2o cl you? l 3 : 2 3 0 :2:3:1 0 A No. L 3 0 -~2:4o 0 Q Do you know if he is still living? P.O. Box 12459 Albany (5 18) 438-0126 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 ---- ________ __________-- --- ---------------------~, Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 ........ Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 102 :' 3 : l 3 :lc. D 1 3 : ;:: 3 1 15 :2n 0 l 3 2 3 : - 4 :4c 0 ' 5_l 3 3n ~ 3 u 1 3 : 3 :1 7 :6-, ,. 1 3 : 2 3 _l 9 :71: 0 l 3 : 2 3 4 .l :&: 0 :9::l 3: 3'1 L : 4 ~) 0 l 3 : 2 3 4 G1:0' D 3 : 2 3 5 o1:1r' u 1_,.J..: 2 4 0 s1:2r> 0 l j : 4 ~ JL3J 0 1 3 : 2 4 1 s1:4u 0 l 3 : 2 4 l H15! 0 1 3 : 2 4 2 21:6) " l 3 : ? 4 2 s1:7'l (1 l 3 2 4 3 o1:8l (I 1 3 4'1 J i1:9; [I 13 : l 3 : 2 4 4 Q:3! 0 2 4 4 s2:4o o A I think he went to his reward. He was several years older than I. Q Were you aware, Mr. Drislane, in the mid-'70s that excessive amounts of asbestos dust could be found in most brake service centers? A Do you have counts on that? In other words, somebody said that, but what were -- do they have fiber counts at that time? I didn't think they had fiber counts until around 1970s. When are we talking about? Q Well let me show you what you said on page 343 of the deposition you gave in 1999, and the question at line 2 on page 343 was: "Would it be fair to say that at least by 1976 that you as Executive Director of the FMSI were well aware that there was no question that excessive amounts of asbestos dust exist in many brake service centers?" And your answer was: "I believe that's so." Do you recall giving that testimony? A I am sure I did, because that's-- that appears to be what I said in answer to the question. Got to remember people were not really getting hip to the problem until the mid-'70s. Q People meaning the brake companies? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 103 ",_ 4 ) :1:: 0 :2(:1 3 ~4 5~ 1) A The brake companies and our customers themselves. ::Xs1 3 2 4 C D Q I want you to assume that maybe they were 13 5" ~ C) 0 :4c, :J hip to the problem a little eaclier than you :5:- 3 : 2 5 u 1 ~ think. "l 3 : ;: -] 3 : ,c: u 1 :6: D .~ :7:: n A Maybe they were. Q Shouldn't they have passed that along to 1 3 : :' 5 0 ~ :8u the consumer? :9-1 3 : '- ~' : 0 7 0 A Well, who do you mean by the consumer? 1 3 : 5 : J 01:0: Q People who buy brakes, people who are l 3 : 2 2 1 11:1:: ' exposed to brakes? '1..-. : 2 :, 1 31:2:) (': 13 : 61:31 0 A The people buying brakes, if I go to the Midas shop or to the car dealer to get brakes installed, they should have been told by their supplier, yeah. 1 3 : 2 s : 2 61:61 [I Q So you think it is the supplier that had the duty to warn not the person who made the product? A They are the supplier, the person who ] 3 : 2 b : 3 :<2:0J u made, I'm sorry. The person who made the brakes 1 3 : 2 s : 3 72:1o u or manufactured the brake lining, be i t JM or "l 3 : ? : 4 :2:2~ () 1 3 : 2 s : 4 <2:3:1 :) Raybestos or Bendix, or whoever you got in mind, should of with the information they were given at 2 s 4 62:4o o when i t was given, looking back with all the ---- P.O, Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 --------------------------------------------------- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 104 2 5 c J :1<> u hindsight you have, should have notified those 1 3 : 5~ C) 4 :2:1 0 people in the brake shops, yes. 1 3 : 2 5 : 5 " :} 0 ,,:4] 3 : 6~ D 1 Q And that was one of the reasons why you were giving this information to your members, you ~ 3 : :2 b .l 3 : E 0 7 :51 0 l l :61 C gave them medical articles about asbestos, you gave them articles about industrial hygiene, you 1 3 6~ - 3 :71) 0 gave them articles about vacuum cleaners, you gave 1 3 2 6 ~ 6 :81) u them articles about levels of exposure and brake :911 3 : 2 6 1 8 I) shops, you were giving that information to your 1 3 : 2 6 : :' 21:0 members in the hopes that they would do something 1 3 : 0 6 : 2 4l:L with it; weren't you? 1 ~ : 2 6 : 2 6l:2o c~ MR. MENDRZYCKI: Objection to form. s1 J : ::> 2 s1:3J o THE WITNESS: Answer the question 1 3 : 2 6 J ol:4~J 0 or -- 1 3 : 2 6 3 cl:SJ c1 BY MR. DeLUCA: l 3 : 2 6 : 3 ol:6J 0 Q Yes. l 3 : ~ 6 : 3 :1:7J 0 A I was doing what the members of my brake l 3 : 6 3 3l:8o 0 Asbestos Study Committee recommended that I do. I 3 : 2 6 3 ;c,1:9l .~ didn't come up with any of these ideas myself. 1 3 : 2 G 3 92:01 c The Asbestos Study Committee suggested. Sometimes l 3 : 2 G 3 92:11) 0 Ike would say, "You ought to send this to the 1 3 : 2 6 4 Q,2J 0 members." And I would make up a bulletin and send 1 3 : ::2 6 : 4 E2:3J 0 i t to the members. It is based on what our 2 6 : 4 s2:4c 0 members had said, and they were very interested in -- - P.O. Box 124S9 Albany, NY 12212-24S9 Albany (SIB) 43B-O 126 Troy (SIB) 2B3-S064 Schenectady (SIB) 3SS-9216 Clifton Park (SIB) 3B3-1241 Fax (SIB) 446-0SB2 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -...- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca I 105 2 6 : 5 o :lo o better vacuuming equipment, you know, to keep the ~ 6 : 5 4 :28 0 concentrations of dust down. So I did send them :: 7 0 0 :3J 0 that stuff, yes. : 7 o 1 :4o o Q It was your understanding that when you 0 3 :5o 0 did that that you were passing that information :: 7 : 0 5 :fu 0 along to your members, number one, because you o 9 :7o o were told to, but number two, in the hopes they 7 7 1 6 :S:l 0 might do something with it? : 7 : 1 6 :9:1 0 MR. MENDRZYCKI: Objection to the : 7 : 2 ol:Oo o form. : 2 ol:lo c THE WITNESS: Yes. : 7 : 2 ol:2o o BY MR. DeLUCA: 2 7 : 2 21:3J 0 Q I think a couple times today you have 2 7 : 2 21:4o o used the term asbestos problem, and I believe ~ 7 : 2 41:5o 0 that phrase has been used in a number of documents 2 7 : 2 sl:6:l o which I haven't shown you yet, but is that a term : 2 7 : 3 11:70 0 with which you have some familiarity? 2 7 3 1l:8:J 0 A No. But the two words go together. ::' 7 3 5l:9J o There was an asbestos problem. I mean, I -- ~~ '' 3 92:0o 0 Q What was the problem as you see it? 2 7 4 32:lo o A Apparently asbestos could cause 2 7 4 32:2o o asbestosis and other kindred diseases, such as 2 8 0 o2:3J 0 t 8 : 2 s2:4o o cancer in certain cases. That was the problem. The problem was a health problem. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0 126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 106 2 8 .< 1 :1<! Q Was one of the problems with asbestos the 13 : 28 l 3 : 22 ".~ :2'1 (< 4 ~ :3, (< fact that industry was going to be regulated and that those regulations were going to cost money? l 3 2 8 4 6 :41 (1 A I don't know that people anticipated the 1 3 :' 9 0 1 :5J u regulations at that time, and but probably along :611 3 : 2 !) : (J 1 (J around 1976 they probably did, probably. 1 3 2 9 : 0 ::. :7j (J 1 3 . 9 0 :8) Q Okay. Let me show you what you said in I 9 9. I think it is consistent. I just want to be :9Jl 3 : 2 9 0 9 C1 . "3 : ~ c< 91:0J 3 : / 9 1 ?1:1,, sure. MR. HARKINS: Then what is the purpose of showing it? L~. : 2 9 l 31:2u 0 MR. DeLUCA: Because I want to be 1j :2 s1:3J (I sure, counselor. 13 : 2 s1:4<J (J MR. HARKINS: Here again, publishing l3 2 61:SJ (J a document without a foundation. 13 z 0 1 61:6) '! BY MR. DeLUCA: 1 3 : 2 9 : 1 s1:7o o Q Sir, did you give a deposition in 1999? 1 3 2 9 : ? ol:8J o A Yes. Q We established that already. There was a 3 : 2 CJ 7 42:0! C) court reporter there, you were under oath? 3 : 2 c; : 2 t2:1o <J A Yes. Q It was typed up? 1 3 : 2 9 : ~ s2:3J u A It may have been. I didn't see it. I : 2 9 : :1 n2:4o n didn't ask for i t . P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 107 : g ~ J :lu u 1 ] : ;' g 3 3 :21) 0 Q I know. We established that earlier also. Page 186 you say at line 7, they are 1 3 : 2 ~j : .~ 9 :}J 0 talking about the December of '73, the question was: What did you mean by the asbestos problem in December of '73?" Your answer was: "Well, this was the year after OSHA was starting to 1 3 ? 9 4 s :7'J c, investigate asbestos as a hazardous material and 1 3 : ;> they were coming out with recommendations. That's 5 4 :9J 0 the problem we are going to be regulated on 1 3 : 3 (J : 0 1l:OJ Cl asbestos exposures." Do you see that? 1 3 : 3 0 : 0 :.1:1: Cl l ..:;,. : 3 D (J :1:2) Cl 3 : 3 u ~ 9131 " 3 : 3 ' l J1:4o 1 3 3 (j 1 s1:5J (J A Yeah. Q Okay. Did you understand that the compliance with OSHA regulations was going to be a costly thing to do for your members? A I didn't know how costly, but it was l 3 3 0 " s1:6J (J 13 30 :::1:7> (l going to cost some money, yes. Q They had a lot of things which were 1 3 : 3 (1 : 01:81 u l 3 : 3 0 : ~ s1:9J u required of them, including reducing exposures, medical monitoring, labeling, proper disposal, 1 3 : 3 Ll 3 :t2:0J D recordkeeping, things like that? 3 : 3 0 3 :2:1J ,, A Yeah. 3 : 3 ,~) 3 Q:21 J ] 3 3 IJ 3 i2:3l (1 Q money? Okay. Every one of those things cost 3 0 : 3 72:4o 0 A Yes. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 -----------------------------~---------------~-- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 108 3 0 3 g :lJ ('I ,,] 3 : 3 1 : l -, :2,] Q Every one of those things cuts down on the bottom line; doesn't it? 1 3 3 1 l ~ :3J 0 A Yes, it does. But -- yes. 1 3 3 1 l H :4J u Q Have you ever heard the term 1 3 3 1 ~ c :5J "encapsulation"? 13 3 1 :6J 0 A Yes. 1 3 : 3 l L 4 :7) 0 Q What do you understand that to mean? 3 :8J1 3 : 1:~ (J A Well instead of the asbestos fibers l 3 : 3 1 : ~ 8 :9J 0 floating around freely, they might have a resin l 3 3 1 3 d:O~ 0 that encapsulates them. A capsule goes around the ] 3 3 l 4 :1:1~ u asbestos fibers. L..l : 3 1 4 31:20 0 Q Did you believe that asbestos containing 1 j 3 1 4 s1:3~ D brakes were encapsulated? 1 3 3 1 4 21:4~ 0 A Essentially, yes. 31 3 L 0 11:5: (l Q But would you agree that when those 31 3 : c, 0 31:6: Cl brakes are ground, or drilled, or rivetted, or 1 3 3 r, 0 d:7:; (l beveled, or tapered, that those asbestos fibers l 3 3 L 1 11:& 0 can get up into the air? l 3 : 3 c, 1 :-1:9; CJ A On some of those definitions, yes. l 3 : 3 0 1 E2:Cb () 3 : 3 ,, ,, c2:1o ,, u Rivetted, no. But repeat them again, and let me answer yes, no on each one of them. They are all 3 : 3 ~ ;' 42:2o " r 3 : 3 L 2 42:3J u different. Q Well, sure. And maybe you know some more 3 2 : ~ E2:4u (1 practices that even I don't. But I was talking P.O. Box 12459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 3559216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 --- _____._... -------------------------------------- ---- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca I 109 < : 2 s :lo o J 2 3 o :2o o 3 :2 3 1 :3J 0 3 2 3 3 :4o o 3 2 J 5 :SJ 0 ] ;' 3 5 :6::1 0 ~<; 37:7oo 3 :: 3 7 :So 0 3 = 3 7 :9::1 0 3 2 3 9l:Oo 0 3 2 3 9l:lo o .3 2 4 3l:2o o 3 2 4 sl::3:J o ] 2 4 6l:4o 0 J z 4 al:SJ o 3 2 s 4l:7o o J 3 : o ol:So o 3 3 : o sl:9:1 o 3 3 0 72:0o 0 3 3 1 12:lo 0 3 3 1 s2:2o o ] 3 : 1 s2:3J 0 t :3 3 : 1 a2:4o o about grinding? A Grinding, yes, the fibers can be freed up, yes. Q Bevelling? A Yes. Q Tapering? A Yes. Q Drilling? A Yes. Q Chamfering? A Drilling. Chamfering is the same thing as bevelling . Q So I don't get double credit for that. A Rivetting is different. And I question a little bit about drilling. I think they come out sort of as chunks, rather than as fibers. Q Yes, sir. What other work practices are you aware of that can cause those asbestos fibers to become airborne? A Well, your bevelling equals chamfering that, grinding, tapering, or whatever. I can't remember them. Q Okay. All right. And you understood that those work practices even in the '70s were P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 4380 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 110 :113 3 : ~ ~ 6 n work practices that could give rise to airborne 1 3 : 3 3 : 3 :2 0 asbestos dust? l 3 3 3 3 1 :3 ') A Probably in the late '70s, yes. I can't '3 : 3 3 ~ :_, :411 1 3 : 3 -" _, ! :51 n 1 3 : 3 3 3 g :6) lj give chronologies on this thing. I know you weren't asking for them, but I'm saying they are relative to the problem. 1 3 : _l 3 : 4 ~ :7- 0 Q Let me see if I can make it easier for :81 3 : 3 l IJ 3 'J you. At some point you knew that and the 1 3 : .3 4 " J :9:) 1 3 : 3 1 0 71:0) ,_, documents would show whenever that is, fair enough? 1 3 : 3 ~ 0 7l:lu 0 A I don't know the documents would show it. 1 ..3.. : 3 4 l 11:2J (I Q We will take those when we get there. Do 1 j : 3 J : 0 ol:3: 0 you need to take a little break? 1 3 : 3 ;, 0 1l:4o 0 - 3 : 3 5 ., 715, Cl A No. I would like to keep going. Q All right. I want to show you what I am " 3 : 3 2 c- 91:6) 1 3 : 3 ~. 1 31:7! 0 going to mark as Plaintiff's Exhibit 4, which is the minutes of the meeting of the Asbestos Study 1 3 3 _I, 4 sl:B! () Committee dated September 15th, 1971. Hand that "1 3 3 : s ~'1:9J (J ~ 3 : 3 ::- :) :2:0o u to you, sir. A I have looked at it. I'm not going to 1 3 : 3 6 (J u2:1J 0 read it. J 3 3 6 () u2:2rJ () Q No, I wasn't asking you to, sir. As you 1 3 : 3 6 0 2:3J 0 can see, the projector cut out again and we are 3 6 : 0 ;2,4c () going to need to take a technical break here. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 - - ----~- ------------------------------~------------------- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 111 :13 6 : 1 .3 0 MR. PIAZZA: The time is now 1: 3 51 1 3 3 8 4 :-, :2l Cl we will pause in the testimony of J j 3 8 4 8 :3' l] Mr. Drislane. 1 .l 3 8 4 8 :4~' 0 (A short recess was taken. ) l 3 : 3 R ~ 0 :5: \) MR. PIAZZA: The time is now 1: 3 8 1 1 3 3 8 :) ? :6:' j we will resume the testimony of 1 3 3 8 :, 4 :71\ 0 Mr. Drislane. 1 3 3 2 5 4 :SrJ C! BY MR. DeLUCA: 1 3 j 9 0 0 :9: 0 Q Mr. Drislane, I'm going to call your 1 3 3 g 0 11:0c ~ attention to certain portions of Exhibit 4, and J3 : 3 u 31:1u 1, that was the minutes of the meeting of the 1~ : 3 9 0 71:2u 0 Asbestos Study Committee. Am I correct, sir, that 1 3 3 9 1 :1:3J 0 when you took these types of minutes you would 1 3 3 9 : 1 61:4i 0 always l i s t who was present? 1 3 3 9 1 s1:5J 0 A Yes. 13 : 3 s1:6J n Q In fact, in this particular series of o1:7.:l 3 : 3 C) ~, 0 minutes you note that representatives of 1 3 3 9 r, :'1:& Cl Raybestos-Manhattan, Firestone, Abex, 1 3 : 3 Q " 61:9:1 ('l 1 3 3 C) j 12:0c 1] Johns-Manville, Bendix and Carlisle were present? A Yes. 3 3 9 .< 12:1u J ~ Q Correct? 1 3 3 9 3 Q:2o l) A Yes. 1 3 3 9 3 2:3J 0 Q And in addition, you had people from the 3 9 3 c2:4c, ~ AIA there? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 112 _, 9 3 7 :1c () A Yep. -'1 3 : 9 1 '! :2c, 1 3 : 3 9 _, 9 :3' 0 Q A few people including some public relation attorneys from the Hill and Knowlton 134 1 -' 1 :4.' Cl l 3 3 9 4 .3 :5 0 in Washington, D.C.? A Yes . :6l 3 : 3 9 4 3 () Q Again, you were there as the Executive 3 : 3 9 4 6 :711 -~ Secretary reporting on the meeting? 1 3 _3 9 c J :81 u A That's correct. "1 3 3 9 c :9--1 0 1 3 i 9 :) ~1:0 !J Q Do these minutes, particularly in this paragraph here that I have up on the screen, do 1 3 4 0 !) o1:l- iJ these minutes reflect a desire of the FMSI to work 1_ -4. : 4 c 1 s1:2cr v closely with the AIA in presenting the industry 1 j : 4 () ,, o1:3~ viewpoint to regulatory agencies? l 3 : 4 () ~ 21:4u 0 A No. We never hooked up with the Asbestos 1 3 : 4 () : -, ~ 41:5:) 0 1 3 : 4 0 ,, 61:6) 0 Information Association in any kind of an agreement to exchange information. It is just 1 3 : 4 v' 3 o1:7o u that they were the only ones that had any 1 3 : ,j 0 3 11:81 0 background on this thing here other than the 1 3 : 4 0 3 s1:9J u regulatory agencies in Washington so we listened l 3 : 4 0 : 4 s2:0~ (J to them. I don't see -- 3 : 4 ,, ~ :::2:111 ,, Q The -- strike that. l 3 : 4 0 ::; 42:2o 0 The position of the AIA in representing l 3 : 4 l 0 32:3J 0 asbestos companies was fairly close to the -. 4 1 0 s2:4r 0 position of the FMSI and its members, correct, P.O. Box 124S9 Albany, NY 12212-24S9 Albany (SIB) 43B-O 126 Troy (S IB) 2B3 -S064 Schenectady (SIB) 3SS-9216 Clifton Park (SIB) 3B3-1241 Fax (SIB) 446-0SB2 - --------- --- ------------------------~------------------- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 113 4 0 9 :1<1 ~ l 3 : 4 1 1 J :21 0 '1 J : 4 1 l :3 0 l 3 : 4 1 1 .3 :4,, D :5<~ J : 4 1 l 6 '" 3 : 41 l 3 : 4~ 1 8 :61 c, ,,~ ,, 0 :7<) l 3:4 :&J u l 3 : 4 1 " 6 :9-J 0 P1:0l 3 : 4 1 ~, u 1 3 : 4 1 3 71:11) u 1-l : 4 1 3 71:2J ,_, -' : 4 l 3 91:3~, n l 3 : 4 1 4 11:4o C< 1 3 4 " ~ 31:5J (I 1 3 4 1 4 61:61 0 1 3 : 4 l 4 A1:7J 0 ,,l 3 : 4 1 :1:8c 0 l 3 : 4 l "' :1:9:1 u l 3 : 41 1 3 : 4 ,, L " Q:()J 0 0 c2:lo 0 l 3 : 4 L 0 :2:2o 0 l 3 : 4 ;' l 2:3J 0 4 L : l c2:4c; J they were coming from the same, same place, so to speak? A We were strictly into friction materials, brake linings and clutch facings. They were all asbestos products and all asbestos types. Q And all these asbestos companies and all these asbestos products were under close scrutiny, and this was industries way of kind of fighting back through the AIA? A I don't know that they are under close scrutiny at that time. Q All right. A There is no questions they were later on. Q And this indicates that this committee, this Asbestos Study Committee could present the brake lining and clutch facing manufacturers' views to both the AIA and to regulatory agencies; correct? A Yes. Q Now would I be correct in doing that or even proposing to do that, that what the FMSI would do would not be to present a balanced view, it would be only to advance industries position? MR. HARKINS: Object to the form. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 114 t '1 2 1 6 :1o 0 4 ~ 2 0 :2o 0 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, it was to express brake on the Friction Materials :3J4 c ~ 22 0 Industries views. 42 22:4oo BY MR. DeLUCA: 4 <- 2 2 :S:l 0 Q Right. And not to advance everything 4 2 2 6 :6J 0 necessarily that the Institute knew about asbestos 4 ~ : 3 0 :7o 0 or the hazards of asbestos, but to promote the 4 2 3 1 :So 0 position of its members? 3 54 L. :~ 0 A Yes, but again this is 1971. This is 4 2 3 71:0J 0 this whole thing was just starting at that time. 4 2 4 31:1o 0 I mean, I knew nothing about asbestos in 1970. t4 5 o1:2J 0 4 2 : 5 41:3J 0 1971 apparently I learned. asking? Is that what you are ' : 4 2 : 5 41:4o 0 4 3 : 0 11:5:1 0 Q I am just -- I just want to establish that when the FMSI and when the AIA would comment 4 3 : o 51:6-J 0 on legislation as we will see later in the 4 3 : 0 91:7o 0 deposition, or they would submit comment to OSHA ' : 4 3 1 31:8o 0 1 3 : 1 61:~ 0 or the EPA that the comments they were making were not a balanced review of the whole situation 4 3 : 1 s2:0J 0 giving the pros and the cons, but merely was ' : 4 3 : 2 22:1o 0 4 3 : 2 t2:2o 0 advancing those things which benefited industry? MR. HARKINS: Object to the form. ' : 43 4 43 2 e2:3J 0 3 o2:4o 0 THE WITNESS: We were giving the viewpoints of industry. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 I Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 115 4' 31 :1o u BY MR. DeLUCA: :2o~ 3 : 4 < 3l C) Q And maybe this is obvious and maybe my 3 : 4 :' : 3 J :3) 0 questions are poor, but you were not giving 3 : 4 :< : 4 3 :4o C furnished information to OSHA or EPA that would :5J3 : 4 < 4 u (', hurt industry; correct? 3 : 4 ~' fi :6J 0 1 3 4 3 4 R :71) n A Can you just read the question again, honey? Because any time you give me a question I 1 3 4 3 ~- :8) () ,,1 3 4 4 1 :9! u have to figure out what you are saying. repeat it? Could you l 3 4 4 1 ::.1:0) u Q I am going to ask the court reporter to 1 3 : 4 ,j Cl1:1cr 0 read it back. l.,J. : 4 4 / :1:2o I' (The Reporter read back the 13J1 3 44 ~0 0 requested portion. 1 3 4 4 ;' 41:4o 0 THE WITNESS: We probably furnished 1 3 4 4 = 61:5o 0 1 3 4 4 3 ol:6J 0 information to OSHA or EPA that they were looking for. Like if they were trying to 1 3 4 4 3 11:7r:r I) find out who are the manufacturers of 1 3 4 4 3 3l:&r u asbestos brake linings in the country, we 1 3 4 4 3 71:9! 0 probably gave them that information. We 1 3 4 4 -' g2:0:l I) 1 3 4 4 4 12:1J u helped some of the people, helped some of the regulators find out who the cohort 1 3 4 4 <1 Q:2o (J was that they were supposed to be looking 1 3 4 4 4 623) I) at. So we did give information that was 4 4 4 P2:4c 0 helpful to them, I believe, and we gave P.O. Box 12459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 ______________________________________________-- -- Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 ,, ---- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 116 4 4 "' 0 :1o l :2o' 3 : 4 1 :; .~. '" 3 : 4b 1 :3.1 '' 3 : 4 ~--; : c 3 :4o u information I thought was helpful to Dr. Selikoff and to Bill Nicholson and that. But generally speaking our thing was we were representing the industry, we :513 : 4 ~:., : 1 1 r) ,_ ~3: 4 1 3 :6:! () were giving the industries viewpoint. Don't find that so hard to understand. 1 3 4 s 6 :7o o BY MR. DeLUCA: 1 3 4 :; :~u Q One of the other things that's described "1 3 : 4 -0 0 :9:! () 1 3 4 5 = 41:0:> I] 1 3 : 4 5 3 11:1o 0 in these minutes is , again, the efforts of the Illinois Pollution Control Board to, I guess, ban asbestos brake linings. We talked about that J1:2ol..:l., : 4 :; 3 () earlier; right? l 3 : 4 s 3 7 L3J 0 A Yes, you did. 1 3 4 :; 3 91:4o 0 Q Do you recall ultimately what the J3 45 ,,J 3 : 4 L 11:5) 0 J1:6J u Illinois Pollution Control Board did in regard to the banning of asbestos brake linings? 1 3 4 5 ..; ~1:7o 0 A I am going to have to try to put the 1 3 4 _'-, 4 s1:&, u thing in perspective. The only reason the 1 3 4 ;:, 5 o1:9J 0 1 3 4 ,, : 3 42:0J I] Illinois Pollution Control Board got mentioned is they happened to be up there in 1969 or 1970. 1 3 4 0 : 0 12:lc 0 They were a miniscule part of the whole problem, 1 3 4 0 : 0 ~2:2c () so-called asbestos problem. OSHA and EPA were the l 3 4 6 l 12:3J 'l real regulators and all that. And that thing, I : 1 32:40 .~ think, caved in after -- I am saying the Illinois P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 117 4 6 b :1o (] Pollution Control Board I think realized that they 13 : 46 8 :2c' n 1 3 : 4 6 ,, -" :3J I) were shutting down the manufacturer of brake linings, of asbestos brake linings, and they 1 3 : 4 6 -" 4 :4o 0 l 3 : 4 6 " 4 :S:-1 n apparently gave in. But I didn't go, I never went out to Illinois. It was all based on somebody :6:)1 3 : 4 ~) -c, 8 I) l 3 : 4 6 'i c, :7c') () telling me what happened out there. But I think that they just gave it up. They probably had a 1 3 : 4 6 5 4 :8J u meeting and they decided to drop it. But now I 13 : 4 0 J :9:1 l! could be wrong on that. 1 3 4 7 0 71:0J ,-, ,,1 3 4 'I " 31:1o 1.J. : 4 7 l 61:2o u Q Let me show you what I am going to mark as Plaintiff's Exhibit 5, which is a September 27th, 1971 letter to you from Dr. E. P. Stefl of J 3 4 'I - o1:3J 0 Raybestos-Manhattan, and I have that for you up on 3 4 7 ~ 41:4o () the screen, sir. If you want to look at the 1 3 4 'I 7 61:5J () letter that I handed you, that's fine. If you J 3 4 7 ~; 71:m 0 want to look at the screen, that's okay also. And 1 3 4 7 4 ll:7n 0 you mentioned a meeting just a few moments ago. I 1 3 4 7 4 s1:8J 0 am wondering if this document describes the 13 4 !: :~1:9:1 0 meeting that you referenced? l 3 : 4 7 ::. 42:w 0 A What meeting? What meeting did I talk 31 : 4 8 0 ~12:1o n about? I don't know. I can't. l 3 4 8 lJ l2:2o u Q Well you said 1 3 4 ll 0 :2:3:1 0 A I am getting -- my brain is not being 4 8 0 :-2:4o () able to function here you are asking so damn many P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 - - ---------------------------------------------- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 118 :1o4 8 l) I (=1 1 3 : 4 8 l l :2o u 1 3 4 H 1 j :3J 0 i 3 4 8 : 1 C' :4(1 :', ~ 3 : 4 8 : 1 " :5J c 3 : 4 8 1 8 :6J (: :7>J3 : 4 8 ~ 0 -~ 4 :So~ 3 : 4 fl <- J 4 :9:!1 3 : 4 p, '- ' 13 : 4 8 61:0c I) l 3 : 4 ll '- s1:1c 1J 1~ : 4 0 : 3 o1:2J 0 l 5 : 4 R : 3 31:3:) 0 3 : 4 8 j 21:4:1 IJ 1 3 : 4 0 3 71:5J 0 1 3 : 4 f1 3 71:68 I) 1 3 : 4 p 4 11:70 0 1 3 : 4 p 4 :,1:8J 0 1 3 4 8 4 61:9:! 1 3 4 8 5 c2:0c 0 1 3 : 4 8 : 5 22:1o u 3 : 4 8 !J 42:2u u 1 3 : 4 q 0 12:3J ll 4 g 0 12:4o D questions. What are we talking about? Q Well I had asked you ultimately what occurred with the Illinois Pollution Control Board, and you said well, they did not ban brakes and there was a meeting. A Right. Was there a meeting? I don't remember that there was a meeting. Must have been a meeting. Q I thought you said "meeting." A Did I say that? Then I don't know. Q If you look at this last paragraph. A Could I read this thing to you, and then give you your answer? Q Sure. A I mean it is going to keep us here all day. Those present in Chicago was so and so and so and so. Two hour meeting was quite cordial and useful. We learned that public hearings would be held in Illinois. Harker indicated a preference of the asbestos through AI testify as a unit rather than each asbestos company. Testimony was given verbally and in writing. Ten copies of the written version would be submitted to the board in advance. In the matter of the brake lining beyond P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (SIB) 383-1241 Fax (SIB) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 119 rJ ' :lo o 13 : 4 o 1 :2o o :3:!1 3 4 g (] "i () :4o1 3 4 9 1 1 ('1 l 3 : 4 g 1 c. :5:! ,,,, 3 : 49 3 : 4 g 1 8 :7o " :&1 3 : 4 9 ~ () ') :Stl 3 : 4 9 : ) ;; 0 1 3 : 4 9 : 2 sl:O: 0 1 3 4 9 : 3 ol:lJ 'J 1~ : 4 9 : 3 3l:2J 0 1 3 : 4 9 : 3 ~1:3J 0 1 3 4 9 :' ;l:4o 0 1 3 4 9 3 9l:5J 0 1 3 4 9 4 1l:ED 0 1 3 4 9 4 sl:7o u 1 3 4 9 4 sl:Bo 0 l 3 : 4 9 4 sl:9J 'v 1 3 : 4 c, = o2:Cb 1 3 : 5 0 I] o2:lo '" 1 3 5 (j : I) Q2~ C) 1 3 : 5 0 0 s2:3:: 0 5 0 0 72:40 u the subject regarding a brief discussion. Harker called it a weak point in our regulations. Harker apparently is Illinois Pollution Control Board. He implied though he did not say that it was necessary in order to gain publicity for the proposed regulations in years. Q What I am interested in asking you about is whether you know about this meeting here that he advised you up in the last paragraph when he says, "Further, I agreed to advise all the committee members as to what happened at our unofficial meeting with some members of the Illinois Pollution Control Board held in Chicago on September 17th. Since that meeting covered matters other than the ban on asbestos and brake lining, I will quote you from portions of the minutes I have received regarding that session. I would urge that you advise our committee members that this information is to be considered extremely confidential at this point, especially since the meeting was held in advance of the public hearings." Do you see that? A I wasn't looking. I see that's the last sentence in this last paragraph, correct. P. 0. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 120 5 0 ~ 1 :1(1 0 Q Did you understand Mr. Stefl to have gone 1 3 : 5 0 1 3 :21 to this Pollution Control Board to meet with these l 3 : 5 0 1 6 :3:J 0 people kind of like having an ex parte 1 3 5 0 1 8 :4o 0 conversation? l 3 ~ 0 1 8 :5:1 0 A I would have to read this thing l 3 OJ 0 ~ u :6J thoroughly. It is really I guess that's what he 1 3 5 ll : <: :7; 0 did. Is that what you are suggesting he did? :&1 3 ,c, 0 : ~ 6 Q Yes. :9:1 3 OJ 0 L 6 0 A Then I agree, okay. 31 OJ 0 ,, s1:0J 0 Q Do you think that was wrong? l 3 : s 0 3 o1:1 (l A No. I never gave any thought to it l ~= 5 0 3 31:2o :j frankly. 3 : 5 c 3 31:3:1 " 3 5: j 3 : ,, 0 ~ 3 51:4o 3 71:5J 0 3~ : s ,, v 4 11:6) }, Q Now that you think about it, do you think that was wrong? A What was wrong about what? Q About going to this board and meeting J 3 5 0 4 31:71) 0 with them, having a confidential conversation? 1 3 5 0 4 s1:8o 0 A No. People have confidential l 3 :J 0 4 61:91 0 conversations lots of times. I find nothing wrong 1 3 : 5 0 4 s2:0l (1 with that. 1 3 5 0 : 4 s2:1j 0 Q But they were going to have public 1 3 ~) 0 5 c2:21) u hearings on this? 1 3 : 5 0 5 22:3J u A Yeah. 5 0 : s 22:4: u Q And this confidential conversation P.O, Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0 126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 --- - ----------------------------------------------------- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 121 5 () 5 4 :liJ r. 3 : 5 1 () 1 :21J l' 3 : 5 1 c l :3:1 () 3 : 5 1 v 5 :4o G :5J3 : 5 1 c 7 (', 3 : 5 1 c 9 :6J c 1 3 : 5 1 1 1 :7n li 3 : 5 1 1 5 :8! r 3 : 5 1 1 ::> :9J I, ~ 3 : J 1 1 61:w ,, ' 3 : 5 1 " o1:1J ,, :~: 5 1 L 21:2o v 1~ 3 : .:> L 61:31 ,, 1 3 : s 1 ,, s1:4u () 1 3 : 5 1 2 a1:5l Cl l 3 : 5 1 3 o1:6J 0 1 3 : 5 1 3 11:71) 0 1 3 : 5 1 3 11:8J 0 l 3 : 5 1 3 51:9J 0 1 3 : 5 l 3 72:w D 3 : 5 1 ' 92:1:) v 3 : 5 1 4 :2:2o ~ 3 : 5 1 4 Q,)J " 5 1 4 E2:4o c, occurred in advance of the public hearings? A Okay. Q And, in fact, if you keep reading, it indicates that industry should present its testimony at the Waukegan hearing rather than at the Chicago hearing because they expected more people to attend the Chicago hearing, do you see that? A No, I don't see it. But it is in there someplace, I am sure you are not reading from I can't run my eyes back and forth on this thing here. Yes, that's what is apparently in here. Why don't you say that's what in here and I will agree? Q That's what's in there. A Okay. Then I agree. Q And wasn't that wrong? A I can't judge what people did as wrong. Maybe there was good reason. Maybe they felt there was real reason to do something like that. Q I don't dispute that, sir, but I am just asking you if this has the appearance of impropriety? A Not to me. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Okay? You get together Albany (5 18) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 122 5 1 4 2 :1: 0 :2:1 3 : 5 1 5 r Cl :3:1 3 : 5 1 ~ '~ 0 :4J3 : 51 .~. 00 u :5:1 3 : 5 /' () () :6J1 3 : 5 2 () r 0 13 5r 0 c :71 0 1 3 5 2 0 " :8n u 1 3 5 ;: 0 7 :9J u 13 5r r 0 91:01 () 1 3 : 5 2 1 31:11 (I 1~ : 5 2 1 31:21 0 1 j 5 ;: l s1:3J u 1 3 5 2 1 6l:4J (1 l 3 : 5 2 1 R1:5J 0 1 3 : 5 -~ : 2 c1:6o 0 1 3 5 " ~ 21:71) 0 l 3 5 ;: 0 41:8) 0 l 3 : 5 2 7 6l:9J 0 1 3 5 2 3 a2:0) 0 1 3 5 2 3 l2:ll 0 13 5 3 ~22: 0 1 3 5 L 3 72:3J 0 5 2 3 92:41) 0 --------- before a meeting. I can get together before I meet with you, can't I? Q No. Actually if you and I were to talk before this deposition, that would be inappropriate. A I can talk to my attorney though before I sit down with you, can't I? Q Sure. A I can talk to these gentlemen over here if I want to before I meet with you, can't I? Q That's true. A I don't see what's wrong with them meeting with the Illinois Pollution Control Board. Q Well why was it to be kept confidential if there was nothing wrong it? A Ask Mr. whatever his name is, Stefl. Q You have no opinion on it? A No. I didn't read this stuff. It was all being thrown at me at that time. I knew this had something to do with the asbestos problem so I probably circulated it to my members. As far as having an opinion on it, I didn't. Q And indeed you did, sir, and that will be marked as Exhibit 6. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 123 5 ~ 4 1 :11 \) 1 3 5 L 4 3 :2: 0 :111 3 5 2 4 6 (J 3 : 5 L 4 8 :4o v :S)3 : 5 3 1 8 0 ~ :611 3 5 3 0~ 1 3 5 3 2 4 :71) 0 :eJ1 3 5 3 0 6 () :9J1 3 2 3 80 I) o1:0J1 3 5 3 : 3 I_) 1 3 : 5 3 : 3 o1:1J 0 l ~= 5 3 : 3 :1:2~; 0 l 3 : 5 3 3 s1:3J Cl l 3 : 5 3 3 71:41] 0 3 : :s 3 3 71:SJ c 3 : 5 3 4 11:6J G ] 3 : 5 3 4 31:71) 0 1 3 5 3 5 o1:8J 0 1 3 5 3 ~ 21:91 I) l 3 : 5 4 0 12:01 0 l 3 5 4 0 :2:1= 0 1 3 5 4 () ::2:2: iJ 1 3 : 5 4 0 92:3J u 5 4 1 Q:4o I) A Well why didn't you tell me that? Q And that's a September 30th, 1971 letter that you addressed to the Asbestos Study Committee, and you copied a whole bunch of other folks. Let me pull that up here for you. And this goes on to state that you were passing along the information that Dr. Stefl gave. you and you again reiterate that it was to be kept confidential -- A Okay. Q -- did you not? A Apparently I did, yes. Q And you don't have an understanding as to why that was? A I didn't really understand Dr. Stefl or Ike Weaver or any of these guys, but I did -- I -- I don't know. Dr. Stefl came on kind of quick and disappeared all of a sudden. At least Ike Weaver stayed. Put it this way, I didn't know what was going on. Q Here is a letter that you wrote to Dr. Stefl, and I will mark this as 7, dated October 22nd, 1971, and take a look at that. Does this reflect a call that you received from a lady P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 124 5 4 : c 0 :lJ 1 3 5 4 : 2 ~ :22 0 41 3 : 5 3 () :3J u 1 3 : s 4 3 I :41) 0 l 3 : s 4 3 9 :5:1 () 1 3 : 5 4 4 1 :& 'J "3 : 4 4 1 :7o '3 : s 4 4 :8c' '" 3 : 5 4 4 6 :9! 0 3 : 5 4 4 sl:OJ 0 1 3 : 5 4 ~' ol:lo () ~.J. : 5 4 ~ 41:2o L) i 3 5 5 0 ol:3J 0 1 3 5 5 0 Jl:4o l' 1 3 5 s L) 5l:5J () 1 3 5 5 0 7l:6:l 0 1 3 : 5 5 c 1l:7o 0 1 3 5 5 1 3l:8J 0 1 3 : 5 5 l ,,1,9:J () 1 3 5 5 : 1 62:0:: 0 l 3 : 5 5 : ~ c2:lc CJ l 3 5 5 : 2 :z2:2~~ lj l 3 : 5 ~ 3 s2:3J 0 5 c 4 L2:4o J who was with the Center for Political Research? A Apparently, yeah. Q Okay. And the question she asks you was: What are the brake lining manufacturers doing about asbestos in the environment? Do you recall that call? A I don't doubt I had the call. I don't remember talking with her frankly. But it says it here, I must of. Q You gone on to say that "I believe that she is the part of activist anti-everythings, and while our conversation was polite and restrained, I don't believe she had much technical depth, as suggested by the usual "fiberglass substitute," in quotes, and the apparent prejudgment that asbestos in brake linings is a serious contaminant from the emission viewpoint in the general environment." A That's what I felt at that time. Q Did you resent the position that she had? A No. But fiberglass is one of these things, you know, we are going to have fiberglass replace asbestos, that's ridiculous. I mean, it's still ridiculous. Even 20, 30 years later, it's still ridiculous. P.O. Box 12459 Albany. NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 125 t :, ~) 4 :, :1o o Q There were other -- strike that. s ~ s o :2o o Now with respect to tha~ Illinois Pollution :. 5 : 5 0 :31 0 Control Board legislation, did you recommend to " 5 5 4 :4o 0 5 6 0 0 :S:l 0 the members that they make comments and that the substance of their comments be that there are no " 6 0 3 :6:l 0 ,,: 6 : 0 5 :7c 0 substitutes for asbestos, do you recall telling -A Did I say that? :So5 6 : 0 7 8 Q Yes. 5 6 : 0 7 :9J 0 A Okay. You say I said it, you probably i : 5 6 : 1 61:0:l 0 got some evidence to show that. ) : 5 6 : 1 s1:1o 0 :~. 6 : 2 o1:2o o 4 . ) : 5 6 : 2 41:31 0 Q You don't recall that? A I don't recall it, no. You show me a piece of paper and I'll recall it. I'm not trying 5 6 : 2 s1:4o o to drag this thing out. It is just that i t just 5 6 : 3 11:S:l 0 goes on. ) : 5 6 : 3 31:6o 0 MR. HARKINS: Do you want to take a ' : 5 6 : 3 51: 7o o break? , : 5 6 : 3 51:8o o THE WITNESS: No. , : 56 : 3 5l:9J o BY MR. DeLUCA: : 5 6 : 3 s2:0:l 0 Q Well let me show you that. Let me mark 5 s : 4 12:1o o it as Plaintiff's 8, and it is Bulletin 416 from s 6 : 5 22:2o o October 28th, 1971. See if that refreshes your 5 7 0 o2:31 0 recollection. s 7 o o2:4o o A What page? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 You don't want me to read the Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 I Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 126 ::) ) 'J 7 :1,-, ,, 1 3 5 7 0 ~ :21J l' 13 57 l :31 (1 1 3 5 7 1 ,_ :41 u 1 3 5 I 1 b :5: u :6o1 3 5 ! -n- 0 D 3 57 4 :71) 0 -'l 3 5 I 0 :8J 0 l 3:5 :9J3 G 'J 0 13 5 ' :<1:0:1 (I 1 3 : 5 7 -' 31:1J tl 1~ : 5 'j 3 c;1:2= CJ 1 3 5 ! 4 J1:3o 0 3 5I Jl:4o 3~ 5 4 G1:5J Ci 1 3 5 I 4 61:6:1 0 1 3 5 ! 4 R1:7rJ 0 1 3 5 7 5 --1:8J 0 "1 3 5 ri ~1: 9:; rj 3 : 5 3 ,, 12:Cb ' l 3 5 8 () 12:1o 0 1 3 5 R () 2:2o l 3 5 8 u ~2:3o 0 5 R 0 :2:4c; 0 whole damn thing, do you? Q No, sir. No, sir. A What do you want me to look at? Q The second page where you state, "The comments must be your own. We suggest that the primary force of these comments might be the lack of availability of known substitutes at this time." A Yes. Generally speaking there weren't substitutes available at that time. Q Sir, there were a number of different types of brakes at that time that did not contain asbestos; correct? A There were tests, test materials in the field, yes. Q In fact, you were working on some brakes for airplanes, ceramic metallic brakes at Bendix back in the '60s; right? A Yes. They are completely inadequate for passenger cars because -- I won't go into the technical thing. Q There were sintered metal brakes that were used? A Right. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 127 s 8 () 7 :1.: IJ 1 3 =~ 8 D 7 :21: J 1 3 : s 8 J ) :3J v l 3 s 8 1 l :411 0 13 58 J :5> u 13 58 _, :61 0 "1 3 5 8 l :7.: u 1 3 5 R l 6 :8:c 0 1 3 c' 8 l 8 :9 0 3 5 f3 ~ u1:0J c "1 3 : 8 ::' :::1:1u l' 1~: 5 R 7 61:2o (j l 3 5 8 ' cl:3J u 1 3 5 8 3 11:41) 0 1 3 5 8 3 31:5J 0 1 3 5 8 3 51:6~ 0 1 3 5 8 ' J1,7,, u 1 3 5 8 4 11:8:) ,'- 1 3 : 5 8 4 51:91 C! ] 3 5 8 4 62:~ 0 1 3 5 8 4 s2:1~; 0 ] 3 : ~' 8 s o2:2J 0 J 3 : 5 8 s ::2:3J 0 5 8 :- :2:4o " Q In fact, they are used on police cars and taxi cabs? A Very good. You did some research. Q Back in the '60s; right? A Did you ever drive one of those cars? Q No, I didn't drive any taxis or police cars in the '60s. A If you went the first thing in the morning to put your foot on the brake, the thing was just like it was water in your brakes. It just kept on going. The brakes had to be warmed up before they could be effective. So you give the car to a garage attendant. He is up on the second floor, and he is coming down the ramp, as I did, and I told him before, I said, "I got to drive that car down there because the brakes are dead, dead cold." It's a characteristics of metal linings. And I said, "You got to warm them up. You have to drag the brakes for a little bit before you go and use the darn things." And he didn't pay any attention to me. He came down and said, "Jesus Christ," he says, "There is no brakes on that car." That's the characteristic of sintered metal P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 128 5 9 : 0 0 :lc () 3~ : J 9 13 5 v 1 :2o v C 3 :31 ,, 1 3 5 9 0 5 :41 '-' 1 3 : 5 9 0 :5J 0 1 3 5 g 1 1 :61 0 1 13 5 9 : :~ :71 (1 1 :l 5 9 : 1 G :8:~ CJ 1 3 5 9 : 1 8 :9~ () 1 3 -c 9 2 o1:0; D 1 3 : 5 9 ~. 41:11 0 L~ : 5 9 3 : 59 61:21) " ., s1:3J c 13 : 5 3 11:4J 1 3 5 9 3 11:5J (I l 3 5 9 3 ::1:6J 0 1 3 5 9 : 3 51:7o 0 1 3 5 C) : 3 s1:81 0 l 3 5 9 : 3 71:9o 0 ~ 3 : 5 9 : _3 92:01 J ~ 3 : 5 9 : :1 92:1o " 1 3 : 5 9 4 J2:2,J (l l 3 : 5 9 4 2:3:1 v 5 q : 4 :2:4o () brakes on cars. They are fine on aircraft because you know what, they are landing at 130 miles an hour, whatever it is. The heat is in those brakes \ right away. But they are no good for passenger cars, no good for trucks, no good for anything else. So there you have the substitute for it. But there were no real good substitutes. Fiberglass was not one. That was a ridiculous one. And they work all through the years after that to come up with the steel fiber-type thing, which gradually they managed to work some of the dead cold characteristics out. But these things were not available at this time . What I say here is exactly true. Q I wasn't suggesting that it was false. A Uh-huh. Q What -- A You are telling me there weren't any substitutes. You are telling there were substitutes is what you are suggesting. Q I am asking if you were aware. A I thought you were telling me. Q No, I am not telling you anything. A Okay. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 129 5 9 : 4 0 :1) 0 1 3 : 5 9 : 5 () :2J () " :3:1 3 5 ~j : ~ ~ 1 4 () 0 0 0 :4o 0 1 4 0 0 0 1 :5J () 1 4 0 0 c 3 :&l CJ 4 ~ 0v ,, '; :7u v 0 c 0 9 :8! 0 14 00 l :9o u 1 4 J 0 51: CD 0 14 J0 d:lu 0 ~ LA. : 0 0 ~ s1:2o 0 1 4 0 0 : ;' o1:3J 0 1 4 0 0 : 41:4-J () 1 4 0 0 : 61:5-J 0 1 4 0 0 : ~ e1:6J l) 1 4 0 Cl " ~1:7:: 0 1 4 0 () 3 11:8! 0 4 0 8 l c.l:9o () ~ 1 4 0 u 3 72:Cb 0 1 4 0 C) 4 12:1o u 4 ~ 0 ,_, 4 (2:2o '" ,,4 0 () CJ2:3J 0 0 lj : 5 22:4o u Q What do they use today in place of the asbestos? A Couple of things they use today. Number one, it is a steel, like a steel wool, chopped up steel wool, or a dendritic iron powder. "Dendritic" means the leaf like structure on something like that. Those they put in with the resin. The resin binder is the same resin binder or similar resin binders to what they used in asbestos. And those are what gradually took over particularly in the disc brakes. You got to remember drum brakes were common in the early days. Discs didn't really start coming in until mid-' 70s. But I mean, just believe me, there were no other substitutes available at that particular time. If you want to go and work on that one, I will be happy to work. You will pay me for it though. Q Pay you to do what, conduct a A To tell you why the reasons were when you couldn't use this brake or couldn't use that brake. Why should I? They were not available. What I said is correct. Q All right. P. 0. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 And attached to that bulletin Albany (518) 438~0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 130 0 1 0 0 :1: l 4 0 l 0 3 :21) D :3o1 4 0 1 0 7 v 14 0l "l :4o c< ,s,4~ 01 16 ,, 41 0 1 ~ 6 :6j (j l 4 0 1 3 l :71) 0 l 4 0 1 3 1 :81) (J 14 0 .3 3 :9J (j ~ l 4 0 1 3 sl:Oo (I 1 4 0 1 3 91:1J (I LA. : 0 1 : 3 91:2) 0 1 4 0 1 4 l1:3: (l 1 4 0 1 4 61:4:: 0 "1 4 0 1 o1:S Cl l 4 0 1 5 21:6! Cl 1 4 0 1 5 41:7) (I 4 0 2 0 o1:8J 0 4 ~ 0c ,. 11:9J ,, 1 4 0 :' 0 i2:0o 0 1 4 0 .. 0 72:11) 0 1 4 0 ;' 0 92:20 u 1 4 0 L 1 :2:3J 0 0 ~ : 1 62:4) ll is all the letters that you collected following your bulletin from companies like World Bestos, Maremont, Auto Friction Corp, Brassbestos, and Abex, where pursuant to your direction they wrote to the Illinois Pollution Control Board and advanced the position that the regulations were unworkable; correct? A Yes. Q In fact, you even got a letter in there from the British Friction Materials Council over there in England? A Did I? I agree, I probably did. Q Where the folks over in England who had basically the same job you did, I guess, wrote to Illinois and said these regulations should not be enacted; right? A I guess that's what they said. I would expect that they would of said that. Q Why do you think companies in England would care what the regulations are in Illinois? A Because they sell their linings over here. Did you ever hear of cars coming in from England or Germany or things? Q And if asbestos brakes were made illegal P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 131 :1o0 ~ 0/~ 0 '1 4 0 ,, 0 :211 1 4 D 2 3 1 :3J (1 c1 4 2 3 ~~ :4J () 1 4 0 2 -' 9 :51 0 ,6J1 4 0c ~ 43 0 1 4 0 2 4 ~' :7; 0 1 4 0 2 4 8 :8J 0 14 0 :9:::::> (! Cl 1 4 0 3 : 0 31:0; 0 1 4 0 3 0 ~.l:L 0 LA. : 0 3 1 11:2:, CJ 0 ~' 1 11:3c 0 4 0 5 1 s1:4o 0 ~ 4 0 < l d:5J ,. 1 4 0 3 2 21:6J 0 1 4 0 J L 41:711 l' 1 4 J :< L G1:8o 0 1 4 J 3 ~ 61:9) 0 1 4 0 3 L s2:0J 0 1 4 0 3 : 3 i2:1c 0 l 4 0 ?l : 4 .Q:2: () 1 4 0 3 4 s2:}~ : 0 :l ~ 42:4o ,, in Illinois, that would affect their sales of cars and replacement parts; correct? A As far as Illinois is concerned, yes. Q Just so we understand the context of this letter, these regulations weren't proposed because Illinois was concerned about people working with the brakes, they were worried about asbestos emissions into the air, such as what may or may not occur when you hit your brakes while you are driving down the street? A Yeah, I believe that what you said is true. Q And you have seen evidence over the years that would suggest that the ordinary and normal braking process of a car can result in asbestos emissions into the air? MR. MENDRZYCKI: Objection to the form. THE WITNESS: Terribly little amount but, yes, I suppose you take the full lifetime of the set of brakes, 40,000 miles or whatever, you might get a pill box full of it. It is very fine. To say more like a talc powder or something like P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 132 that. ~ 4 o 4 1 s :2n ~= BY MR. DeLUCA: 1 4 0 4 1 o :}, I) Q Let me show you FMSI :2492, which I will 1 4 C) 4 23:4110 mark as Plaintiff's Exhibit 9 . 1 4 0 4 .3 0 :SCI C> MR. KRAUSE: What's the date? l 4 0 4 3 l :6: MR. DeLUCA: I'm not sure. 1 4 0 4 J .3 :7: 0 MR. KRAUSE: Or Jacko. 1 4 o 4 ' :; :So J BY MR. DeLUCA: 1 4 0 4 3 5 :9:1 (' Q Do you remember this article? 1 4 0 4 J 91:0J 0 A No. I know Mike, but I don't remember 1 4 0 4 4 11:1) 0 the article. Was i t in my files? 1A.: 0 4 4 J1:2J 0 Q Yes, sir. Title is "How Much Asbestos Do l 4 0 4 4 61:3) 0 Vehicles Emit?" Goes on to say that most of the 1 4 0 4 4 s1:4c' 0 asbestos emitted from vehicle brakes and clutches 4 0 4 ~ o1:SJ c is converted to other products with only 3.2 1 4 0 5 0 o1:6J 0 percent of total asbestos emitted entering the 1 4 0 = : 0 11:71J 0 1 4 0 5 : 0 s1:&.; () atmosphere according to Bendix researchers. Are you familiar with that study? l 4 () ~) 0 91:9: CJ A No, I am not. I know it was Mike Jacko, o2:0l(J ~ : l C but that's the only thing I know. You are getting 14 c ~ ~2:1o 0 ~ into 3.2 percent. You are talking by volume or by 1 4 0 5 1 R2:2o 0 weight, so forth and so on. I don't know what 1 4 0 5 ~ n2:3:: 0 Mike -- Mike is a theoretical person. 0 ~ lc ?2:4o ,, Q Did you know Dr. Jacko? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 133 0 s : ~ 8 :11 0 1 4 0 5 "- 8 :2l () :314 ~ 05 30 v 1 4 0 5 3 1 :4u 0 A Yes. Q Pretty well? A No. I knew him professionally. Q When they say "into the atmosphere," they 1 4 u = 3 3 :S:-1 0 1 4 0 5 3 7 :61 are talking about the air that we all breathe? A Yes. 1 4 s() 3 7 :7' Q That I breathe, that you breathe, that 1 4 CJ 5 4 1 :8 l 4 0 5 4 3 :9! " 1 4 D h, ~ :<1:01 0 your grandchildren breathe? A Yeah. Q Do you have a problem with that? 1 4 0 5 4 E1:1J lj A No. It's a miniscule amount. In other l ...... : 0 5 : 5 o1:2, () 1 4 0 s : 5 ::>1:3J CJ words, how much, what is the concentration of asbestos fibers that the person on the road or l 4 D 6 Cl D1:4o (I 0 E 0 J1:5J 0 wherever it is is exposed to? That's what counts to me. This thing here, maybe can you show me 1 4 0 6 0 51:6J 0 l 4 0 b (J 71:71 () 1 4 0 6 : 0 91:8J 0 1 4 0 6 : l 31:9-J D more of the article? Q Sure. Actually if you give me a moment, I will give you the whole thing. In fact, that is going to be very easy to do now since the j 4 0 ti 1 62:0:! n 1 4 I) 6 ~ s2:11) 0 1 4 l l -, J2:2,J ,-, l 4 l 1 3 Q:)c 1,) projector cut off. Off the record, please. MR. PIAZZA: The time is 2:05, we will take a pause in the testimony of Mr. Drislane. ; l 1 : J :2:4o P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 (A short recess was taken.) Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 ----------------------------------~-------------------- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 134 1 1 3 5 :1l' u MR. PIAZZA: The time is now 2:10, 1 4 1 1 3 5 :2o 0 we will resume the testimony of 14 1 .3 -; :31 u ~ Mr. Drislane. 14 11 3 7 :4'1 o BY MR. DeLUCA: l 4 1 1 3 g :SJ CJ Q Mr. Drislane, you have had a chance to 14 11 1 :6J u review Exhibit 9? ] 4 l l : 4 J :7,1 n A Yes. 14 1 ~ -' :BJ () :9:11 4 11 4 C, (1 Q Did your review of that document lead you to want to make any additional comments about it? 1 4 1~ 4 sl:Cb 0 A No. J 4 11 L....it : 1 1 5 o1:1J () ,, 41:2J n Q Okay. Let me show you what I have marked as Exhibit 10, which is a memo dated December 3rd, "4 1 14 1 c 0 ,,l:JJ I) () g1:4o C1 1971 to the Johns-Manville Environmental Health Task Force, AIA/NA Member Companies, some other 1 4 1 L J 11:5:1 D folks, you appeared to be cc'd on this, do you see 1 4 j_ 2 : 1 ::.1:6J 0 that? l 4 l 2 1 ,,1:7o '1 A Yes. 1 4 1 ,, 1 s1:8J (] Q And this is a memo from Mr. Raines who l4 10 ~ ~ til:9J 0 1 4 1 : ,, o2:0J 0 you understood to be associated with the AlA? A I never remember Mr. Raines. 1 4 1 -~ 2 i2:1o 0 Q Okay. i 4 1 ~ 2 42:2o J A I remember Mr. Mereness and I remember i 4 1 ,, 2 a2:3o () Mr. Pigg. : 1 ~ : ;' a2:4o 0 Q Nonetheless, you see that he attaches the P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 135 2~ J 0 :1:- 0 -'1 4 1 2 .3 :2(' 0 1 4 1 2 3 5 :3:) 0 J 4 1 z 3 :4u 0 14 ~L s4 ; 0 1 4 1 "- 4 5 :6' -, 1 4 l 2 4 6 :711 0 14 ,, 1 t s :8:1 (1 1 4 1 "' 4 8 :9:) 0 1 4 l 2 5 :=1:0 (J 4 1 0 ~ 41:1u ,, 1.:l: 1 3 0 11:2o 0 1 4 1 3 0 31:3l 0 l 4 1 3 0 71:4o 0 - 4 1 3 : 1 31:5) c 1 4 1 3 : 1 s1:6J 0 1 4 l ' : l d:7'J C1 1 4 l 3 : ' o1:8J 0 l 4 1 3 : " 41: 9:J 0 1 4 1 3 L t2:0:l 0 1 4 1 3 ~- t2:1o 0 1 4 1 3 3 c:2:2o 0 1 4 1 j : 3 12:3o 0 : 1 3 : 3 >2:4o CJ final, the proposed final draft of that Illinois regulation, and he notes that one of the most important changes was that the section banning the use of asbestos containing brake linings after 1975 was eliminated? A Okay. Q All right? A Yes. Q And you go on to the next page on the bottom, Mr. Raines says, "It's indeed an encouraging sign to find that in this era of national environmental panic, a well-documented and well-presented industry case can produce results as fair and reasonable as those obtained in the State of Illinois." Do you see that? A Yes. Q Did you think that that was a fair outcome given the one-sided contact that the brake companies had with this board? A I don't remember this particular paragraph. I don't remember this letter. I see the letter here now. I believe it happened. I didn't dwell on this. Q And it wouldn't be your testimony that P,O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 136 '1 3 : 7 :lc, c l 4 1 3 .'1 q :2o 0 1 4 1 3 4 l :3J [I 1 4 1 4 I_) 9 :4o 0 1 4 4 1 3 :5 0 ~ 1 4 l 4 1 c' :6: 0 :7c4~ 14 l0 ,. 1 4 1 4 ~ 'J :8, ,., 1 4 1 4 ~ 4 :9:> 0 1 4 l 4 .. sl:(}, C) 1 4 4~ : .. sl:l 0 '1 A..: 1 4 11:21.' 0 l 4 1 4 3 3L3J c 1 4 1 4 3 71:411 0 1 4 1 4 3 9l:5.l 0 1 4 1 4 4 1l:m 0 1 4 1 4 4 31:7: "1 4 1 4 41:81 0 l 4 1 5 c 3l:9J ' l 4 1 ~. : 0 C!2:0l 0 1 4 5 : 0 72:1J D ~ l 4 l 5 : 0 92:2J 0 l 4 1 5 1 J2:3J 0 l 5 l 12:4! 0 this result was because of such a well-documented and well-presented case that they made, right, we have showed you the documents where they went there and they talked to them before the hearings, do you remember seeing that? A Yes, I do. Q And would you agree that the Friction Materials Standards Institute was active and instrumental in getting that pcoposed legislation removed? A No . This was a really a zilch chapping at that time. I never paid any attention to that Illinois Pollution Control Board. Because the idea of going and banning the friction materials, asbestos and friction materials in five years was so to me outlandish that it couldn't happen, but we went through the motions of passing things on to people and to commenting on it, yeah. Now ten years later, okay. Q Let me hand you as Exhibit 12, a letter from Dr. excuse me, from Mr. Nelson, who was with Abex, do you remember him? A Yes. Q In fact, I think he copied you on this, P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 137 '1 5 : :1(1 0 ~ l 4 ~ 5 : 1 6 :2:: 0 J 4 l 5 2 2 :3: D 1 4 1 5 2 4 :4c' 0 :5:>4 ~ l5 6~ C '1 4 1 5 :610 (', 1 4 l 5 3 1 :7') 0 :8J1 4 1 5 3 ~ 0 1 4 l 5 : 3 7 :9': u 1 4 1 5 3 71:01 1 4 1 ~' 3 91:11: 0 LA..: 1 :) 4 1l:2n ' 1 4 1 5 4 Jl:3c 0 1 4 1 5 4 61:411 n 1 4 1 5 4 sl:S') 0 14 15 c ,! zl:fu 0 1 4 1 5 5 41:71 n 1 4 1 6 : 0 31:8 0 1 4 : 1 6 D sl:9) 0 1 4 1 6 0 92:0') (j l 4 1 6 :1 12:1! 0 l 4 1 6 " s2:2o 0 1 4 1 6 : 1 s2:3J 0 1 b 1 s2:4o (I and this is a letter he sent over to England. It is dated January 14th, 1972. I want to show you what he thought about who was successful in getting this legislation removed. Last paragraph, first page, sir. "I am taking the liberty of sending the copy of your attachments to the Frictions Materials Standards Institute as they were active and instrumental in getting this proposal removed." A Uh-huh. Okay. Q If that's not your recollection, do you know why he said that? A Bob was a great promoter of the FMSI, and he wanted to show that everything that the FMSI did was great and good. Like I say it was good, but I don't say necessarily it was great. So Bob was giving me a pat in the back. Q Did you think it was appropriate for the FMSI to comment on proposed regulations concerning asbestos in this time frame? A Did I think it was appropriate for the FMSI to comment on asbestos regulations at this time? Q Yes, sir. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 138 1 6 : 1 8 :lr Cl 1 4 1 6 : ~ ,, :2l' u 1 4 1 6 :~ 4 :3:1 0 :4u1 4 16 8C> >c u 14 6 : ,, - 8 :5:: n :61 4 1 6 : 3 0 Jj 1 4 1 6 J l :7cr - 4 1 6 < 5 ,&_, 1 4 1 6 ? g :9:1 0 1 4 1 6 4 11:01 0 l <; - 6 : 4 :;1:1 0 1 A..: 1 6 -4 1b " ol:2c, D ~ ~1:3-r ,, 1 4 1 7 0 ol:4o 0 1 4 1 7 0 1lSJ 0 1 4 l 7 0 31:61 0 J 4 1 -; !1 ::1:7:, 0 - 4 1 7 v ::1:8) ' 14: l 0 71:9) 0 14 1 ') I 0 92:0') 0 l 4 1 7 CJ 92:L 0 - 4 1 -,~ 1 12:2n ,, l4 1 l 12:3J 0 24 A Yes, I thought we should give input to the to the regulators, yes. Q Did you ever question the propriety of doing that? A No, I didn't, no. Q Did you ever suggest to them that maybe instead of getting involved, we should just keep our eye on what happens, and the only thing the Institute should do is pass that along? A In retrospect I go right along with you, yes. Q Okay. In fact, let me show you 13, which is a memo you wrote January 26, '72. A I wish everything I could do would be in hindsight, you know. MR. KRAUSE: What was the date of that again? MR. DeLUCA: That was January 26, '72, sir. MR. KRAUSE: The one you are showing him now? MR. DeLUCA: Yes, sir. January 26th, '72. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-24S9 Albany (SIB) 438-0 126 Troy (SIB) 2B3-S064 Schenectady (SIB) 3SS-9216 Clifton Park (SIB) 3B3-1241 Fax (SIB) 446-0SB2 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 139 1 7 1 3 :1J 0 BY MR. DeLUCA: l 4 ~ 7 1 3 :2: u Q And, in fact, right here you say, '1 4 1 'i 1 :3', D '- 4 1 :4o : 1 4 1 -; 1 R :5J 0 Mr. Drislane, you say should, speaking of the FMSI, "Should it get involved on commenting on proposed regulations concerning asbestos, or 14 1 " :6J 0 1 4 1 7 4 5 :7J 0 should it serve more as a monitor to keep the membership advised?" That was something you 14: - !: :8J 0 raised? l 4 l 7 4 :, :9:1 i) A Yeah, okay. d:OJ4"~ 17 4 '~ Q Do you remember what the reaction was of '~:_ 4 1 4 s1:1o c LA : 1 'I 5 o1:2o u your membership? A No, I do not. 1 4 1 7 ~ ~1:3J () Q But you do remember doing other stuff 1 4 1 7 5 41:4o () like this years down the road though? 1 4 1 8 0 :1S: 0 A Yes. 1 4 1 8 0 11:6; C) Q So obviously your membership felt that 1 4 1 R CJ ?1:7o J this type of involvement was within the scope of ~ 4 1 8 0 71:8o v- the FMSI's activities? 1 4 1 8 (] g1:9J 0 A Some people thought one way. Others 1 4 1 8 1 Q,OJ 0 thought a different way. We went along with 1 4 1 8 1 22:1( 0 whatever they, I guess the Asbestos Study 1 4 1 8 -0 c2:2o () Committee chairman said. We never had a vote as - 4 1 '3 0 s2:3:! ~ such, but they wanted to continue commenting, they : 1 2 3 _'.2:40 0 continued commenting. P"O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 140 1 8 : _; ~-) :1:1 0 :2:l 4 c 9 3 5 \) l4 19 1 1 :3 ,, v 1 4 1 9 4 :, :4, 0 1 4 1 9 4 6 :5:1 0 1 4 l 9 4 6 :6J 0 :71 4 9~ ::> 0 0 1 4 1 9 5 : :8r' 0 4~ 1 9 5 L :9-1 " 1 4 1 9 ,c, 41:0:1 0 1 4 1 9 ~~ 41:1) l) 1~: 2 0 : 0 1l:2u 0 14 ,, :0 : 0 31:3 D 1 4 : 2 0 ll sl:4o J 1 4 2 0 1 sl:S:J c, 1 4 2 0 2 41:6J 0 l 4 '2 0 ., 6l:7o 0 l 4 ~ 0 : c d:8J 0 1 4 : 2 c : sl:91 J l 4 2 (1 : 3 J.2:()J 0 l 4 2 0 : 3 :2:1l () l 4 2 0 : 4 12:2J 0 l 4 0 : 4 32:3:, 0 2 0 4 :2:4o 0 Q Let me show you as Exhibit 14 minutes of the Asbestos Study Committee dated February lOth, 1972, and hand that to you. You were -- I almost said a bad word there. The future course of the Asbestos Study Committee was discussed at this meeting? A Where does it say that? What page, do you know? Q Page 4, sir. A Page 4. Q And some of your members thought that the Asbestos Study Committee should exist for screening and passing on informations on information to its members and they didn't feel that the committee should be used as a vehicle to comment directly on regulations. A Yeah, so -- Q Do you recall which of the members felt that the committee should stay out of politics? A I have no idea. Q Do you remember the ones that were interested in influencing legislation? A No, I don't. Maybe Ike was, I'm not sure. I don't know. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 141 0 ::; ~ 4 5 :1C! ,, Q Have you -- do you know whatever became 1 4 0 : " G :2o 0 1 4 2 0 : 5 0 :3: 0 of Mr. Weaver? Do you know if he is still living or where he would live? 14: c 0 14 : 20 " ~ :4c 0 5 ' :S_, v A No, I have no idea. Q Do you keep in contact with any of the 1 4 2 1 0 0 :&, (j acquaintances that you made over the years? 1 4 0 1 0 3 :7(1 0 A Nope. 1 4 2 1 0 3 :&: u Q You don't get Christmas cards or holiday 1 4 2 1 CJ 7 :9' 0 cards from anybody that you did business with? 1 4 2 1 1 11:0:'! c A No. 1 4 2 ~ ~ 11:1u 0 Q Do you attend the FMSI meetings every LA..: 2 1 1 !'1:2u IJ year? 1 4 1 s1:3:J 0 A Nope. ~ 4 2 l 1 61:4o G Q You don't get the free trip down to 1 4 2 ~ 2 41:5) 0 Kiawah Island or whatever to rub elbows with your l 4 : 2 1 3 o1:6J 0 former colleagues? 1 4 : 2 1 3 11:71: 0 A No. They dropped me like a hot potato. 4 : 2 1 3 s1:8) ,, Q Did you enjoy your work with the 1 4 2 - 3 s1:9: 0 Institute? 1 4 : 2 1 3 92:0c 0 A Yes. ~ 4 : 2 1 3 92:1o ,-, Q Was it challenging at times? 4 : 0 1 4 12:2o " A At times, yeah. J 4 2 : 4 s2:3J (J Q Probably one of the biggest challenges 2 1 : " c2:4o 0 you faced was to keep everybody together as a P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 - - ---- ------~--------------------~----------------- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 142 2 l 5 4 :1.1 0 "l 4 2 1 5 :2c 0 1 4 2 2 0 0 :3J c: 2 ~ 8 1 :4u ~ l 4 2 ? 0 3 :5l l' ,,l 4 2 2 0 5 :6) l 4 2 2 0 !:; :7<) 0 1 4 0 ' :8-J (} l 4 2 . 0 :9J C! ,,l 4 2 2 1 :<1:0:1 1 4 : 2 ~ 1 ~1:1: C! l ...::1.. : 2 2 1 :1:2; 0 6l:3J4~ 2 "- 1 c' 4 ~ 22 2 o1:4G ' 1 4 2 2 2 21:5J 0 1 4 2 z 2 4l:6J 0 14 2~ ~ 2 41:7,J 0 l 4 2 : 2 61:8) 0 1 4 2 ;: 3 c1:9J u 1 4 3 o2:0:J 0 1 4 2 2 :I 12:1: 0 l 4 2 ; 3 Q:2J 0 1 4 2 :' 3 52:3:: () 3 92:40 0 group? A That's too general for me. Q Were there many instances where your members had conflicting views and that they would A Absolutely. Q fight about that kind of thing? A I'm sorry if I jumped at. Yes. Q Very competitive business your members were engaged in; was it not? A Yes, they were. Q In this time frame as people began to look at substitutes for asbestos there was a lot of time and money spent in doing that, and companies would not share that information with one another? A No, they wouldn't. Q They wanted to maintain that competitive edge? A They weren't going to give away their secrets. Q Because to do so would be to give away market share if they were ultimately successful? A Yes. If you spent a couple million P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 143 ::: 2 4 1 :1J (j 1 4 ~ 3 : l 8 :2~; 0 :3J:::1 4 3 ') ~ Cl :4o- 4 3~ ::: c ~ ,, 1 4 2 3 2 6 :S, C 1 4 2 3 j l :& 0 14 23 l 4:~3 '3 :7: D 3 s :8 ; 1 4 2 3 3 7 :9:" 0 1 4 2 3 4 11:0:1 0 1 4 : ~ 3 : 4 ~1:1 0 1A.: 2 3 : 4 sl:2c D 1 4 2 3 4 sl:3l 0 l 4 2 3 ~. ol:4u 0 l 4 2 4 1 sl:SJ 0 1 4 2 4 ol:6 D l 4 2 4 :21:71! 2 l 4 2 4 2 41:81 0 l 4 2 4 ~ 6l:9J 0 4"' 4 : 2 3 o2:0J 0 1 4 2 4 3 o2:lJ 0 1 4 :0 4 '" 12:2o 0 l 4 2 4 : 3 32:3J 0 2 4 : 3 72:4c u dollars to develop a substitute or something like that, are you going to give that to one of your competitors? Q Do you recall a seminar held at the Illinois Institute of Technology in April of 1972? A No, I do not. Q Did you -- do you recall a gentleman named Dr. Colin Harwood? A That name strikes me as being associated with the Illinois Pollution Control Board, but that's all I know. Q Let me hand you 15, which is a memo that you prepared June 6th of '72 with certain attachments, and ask you to take ten seconds just to flip through here and maybe familiarize yourself with what we have there. A This is very interesting. Here is what Ike is saying in this letter. Your chairman, Mr. I. H. Weaver sent this data to me for distribution. Q Those are your words, sir? A This is mine, okay. But I am commenting, what. He commented on the paper, quote, "The main issue I have with Dr. Harwood's conclusion would P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 144 ::2 4 3 q :1r, J :2o1 4 -~ 4 I, 1 0 "1 4 :' 4 4 ,}! (I :4rl 4 ., 4 ~ \') u l 4 : .2 4 ~ 0 :5:1 [) 1 4 2 4 5 ,_ :6:_, 0 1 4 :' 5 0 l :7!.: 0 1 4 2 5 () 7 :& 0 1 4 : - 2 ,, 9 :9-J ,_, 1 4 : ;o 5 l 11:01 (', 1 4 : 2 5 1 31:11 0 1 A._: 2 5 : 1 s1:2:: 0 4 : 2 5 : 1 s1:3J J 1 4 2 5 1 ol:4u 0 1 4 ?. 5 2 4L5J 1 4 2 s s1:& 0 1 4 5 J o1:7r; 4 : 2 5 < 31:8) ,, 1 4 : 2 5 3 :i1:9J 0 14 ., L 5 : 3 c:Q,OJ 0 "J 4 : 2 4 12:1,J v } 4 2 5 4 Q:2o () 1 4 2 5 4 s2:3J 0 ,,2 4 c2:4o Cl have to do with whether or not the free fibers or fibrils released from friction material decomposition are truly hazardous in any way, and I also believe he tends to underestimate the problem in non-asbestos containing braking systems." Now this letter is June 6th of 1972. When he wrote that thing about it was read, the whole thing was read at that meeting, he said something to the effect that all asbestos is hazardous or something to that effect. Do you recall what I am talking about? Q Yes, sir. A In his speech. Now this thing here is June of '72, and I think it is after he wrote that one there. Here he is saying to the effect that he doesn't know whether it is -- I have with Dr. Harwood's would have to do with whether or not the free fibers or fibrils released from friction materials decomposition are truly hazardous in any way, and I also believe he tends to underestimate the problems in non-asbestos containing braking systems. This seems to be sometimes he is in a little bit in doubt of what he said earlier. Could you agree? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 145 2 5 : 1 ~ :1() " 1 4 2 5 5 0 :2c~ 0 14 50 - 5 4 :3:: 0 J 4 2 5 5 4 :4c, 0 1 4 0 6 0 0 :5:.' G 1 4 2 6 0 1 :6:J 0 1 4 2 6 : 0 :;, :7u 0 :S1 4 6 0 7 lj 14 6 ,, v 9 :~1 " 1 4 : 2 6 0 91:01 u 1 4 : 2 6 1 31:1) 1.::!...,: 2 6 1 s1:2: 0 1 4 : 2 6 1 61:3, J 1 4 2 E 1 s1:4o 0 1 4 :' 6 1 s1:5J 0 l 4 : 2 6 : L o1:6:~ l 4 : 2 6 2 ol:7o ,, 1 4 2 6 ~ s1:8J 0 l 4 2 6 3 o1:9J 0 1 4 2 b J l2:Cb 0 J 4 2 6 3 s2:1o 0 1 4 2 6 J c2:2o (J 1 4 2 6 4 12:3:! () 2 b 4 s2:4o 0 Q Well I wouldn't, sir, because let me remind you, sir, that this is June of '72 -- A Yeah. Q -- and Ike Weaver made that speech in Vail of June of '73. A Oh, is that it? Q Yes. So the speech came after. There was very little doubt in his words in June of '73, you agree? A Yes. But there was doubt in his mind back in '72. You know, things changed. Q Well this is -- this is a memo that you wrote A Yes. Q concerning a seminar that was held in Illinois? A Which I did not attend. Which Ike attended and sent me the information on. Q And that information shows a couple things, and you can look through there but one of the things that that shows was that emissions of asbestos from friction materials results from normal day-to-day use, okay, you agree with that? A Yeah. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 146 L 6 : 4 !:;. :1~ 0 1 4 -- 6 : 4 8 :2CI 0 "1 4 ::: 6 : c :3J 0 :4c1 4 L 6 : ~) L, I) 1 4 : .- 6 : 5 4 :SJ - 1 4 - 7 c' 0 :6J 0 ,,1 4 2 7 0 :7D u :So4l : 2 7 0 g CJ 1 4 2 7 1 1 :9:1 0 41 7 ~ 1 s1:0: u l 4 7 1 s1:1L' 0 1 ,1..: 2 7 L 21:2J 0 1 4 2 7 L 41:3:1 0 7l 4 ? <. d:4c, 0 1 4 2 7 3 o1:5~ l 4 ., 7 3 J1:6J 0 1 4 70 3 s1:7u 0 1 4 3 71:8n 0 14 7 ~ 3 91:91 0 - 4 : 2 7 3 92:0) c 1 4 0 7 4 l2:1J 0 14 0 4 s2:2~ () ' 4 2 -; 5 o2:3J () 2 7 : 5 22:4J 0 Q And it goes on to say that even at the level of one percent, and remember I showed you that Bendix thing about 3.2 percent? A Dr. Jacko's report. Q Yeah. But even at the level of one percent this states, that the total emissions must be considerable when the total tonnage in use is considered. In other words, all those cars all around the country that use asbestos brakes, even if they only emit one percent that becomes a lot, did you understand that in 1972? A No, I don't believe so, because I believe that a lot of the so-called wear debris that goes into the atmosphere fell to the ground or fell into the streams. It was also a pollutant of course doing that, but it was not the kind of fibers that people were breathing, I didn't belief. But I am saying a lot of that dust went down to the ground. Q So it dropped out of the air that we breathe and fell into the water that we drink? A That is probably true, yes. Q And you would agree with me, sir, that asbestos does not do the human body any good? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 147 -? 5 4 :1c 0 A I can't take that. Hell, yes, look at 1 4 8 0 l :2c' 0 the -- if only they had asbestos in those damn 1 4 2 8 0 .'l :3:-1 0 buildings down at the World Trade Center, maybe 1 4 2 8 0 s :4c, ,_J that fire could have been stopped a l i t t l e bit. 1 4 2 8 I) 7 :5-J 0 Yes, I say asbestos does some good. 1 4 8"- 0 9 :6) () Q Move to strike as non-responsive. 1 4 : 2 8 1 3 :7 iJ A What's that? l 4 : 2 8 : 1 3 :81 " 1 4 : 2 8 l 5 :9-l 0 Q Move to strike as non-responsive. legal thing. Don't worry about it. It's a l 4 2 8 1 61:0J 0 A What am I supposed to do? Am I supposed l4 .-, L R - 21:11 0 to answer the question? ~ .oil,: 2 8 :' 11:2u c MR. HARKINS: You did. l 4 2 8 " 41:3J 0 1 4 2 8 : ::: 61:4:J 0 MR. DeLUCA: You did. MR. HARKINS: In a nice response, frivolous response. 1 4 3 o : ::: s1: 6J o MR. DeLUCA: Move to strike the comment of counsel also. 1 4 3 o: 3 i1:8c o BY MR. DeLUCA: i 4 3 I] ' 11:9:! 0 Q Let me hand you as 16 a letter from the 1 4 3 0 3 :2:0o 0 AIA dated July 5th, 1972. I'm going to call your 1 4 3 0 4 Q:1u o attention to paragraph 8 , which appears on the l 4 3 0 4 Q:2o o fourth page. Obviously, if you want to look at l 4 3 0 4 s2:3l 0 the whole letter, you are welcome to do so. This 3 0 : s 42:4o o is a letter that was written by Matthew Swetonic. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (S 18) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 148 :lo3 i : () :< l 4 J l 0 :. :2c l 4 3 l ,, ' :3:! ,_ 1 4 3 l : () 9 :4ll 0 1 4 .3 l ~ b :5:) 0 :&1 -1 3 1 ,_ 0 0 l 4 _; l -- iJ :7(1 li :So1 4 .3 l ,_ :' 0 1 4 3 1 : ., 6 :9:1 0 1 4 .3 1 .3 ~1:0 0 - 4 3 1 3 3l:1l 1 A..: 3 1 3 31:2r' 0 1 4 _l 1 3 31:3:; 0 1 4 3 1 3 71:4u 0 1 4 3 l 4 11:5J u 1 4 3 - : 4 31:6:1 0 1 4 : 3 1 4 s1:7 0 4 3 1 4 61:81 v 1 4 3 1 2' o1:9-J l 4 3 1 5 22:0! 0 -' 4 3 1 5 42:1o Cl 3 ' 0 a2:2u G 1 4 3 7 0 12:3:) () 3 v : 0 :2:4~ 0 We talked about him earlier? A Yes. Q By the way, did you ever -- did you ever hear the good news, bad news speech that Matthew Swetonic made in 1973? A I don't recall. Q The gist of that was that the bad news is that a certain number of people are going to get sick, but the good news is that no one is really paying any attention, does that refresh your recollection? A Nope. Q Mr. Swetonic in this letter, and this is from the files of the FMSI A This is from the FMSI. It doesn't show me as being copied. Q You can look on the bottom right-hand corner and see that there FMSI Bate stamp. A That's not a FMSI Bate stamp. That is somebody else Bate stamp. Q I will represent to you that that stamp that was placed on there was placed on there after these documents were produced by the Institute in June of this year, and that this document is from P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 14 9 "' ;' : 0 :1J 0 1 4 j 2 1 - :2c lJ 1 4 3 2 1 1 :3! u 1 4 3 2 1 :1 :4r' 0 1 4 3 2 1 ~ ,s-, 0 1 4 3 2 1 8 :6 0 " 4 3 2 ~ J :71 " 1 4 3 2 2 ') :8n 0 -1 4 3 2 - 8 :9J 0 1 4 :1 2 3 o1:0J u 1 4 3 2 3 31:1n u 1~,: 3 2 3 s1:2tl 0 1 4 3 2 3 71:3: 0 l 4 3 2 3 91:4u J 1 4 3 2 4 31:5J (J 1 4 3 " 4 s1:6J 0 J 4 3 -, 4 61:7: 0 4 : 3 2 4 s1:8o 0 J 4 3 : : 5 41:91 () 1 4 3 3 : 0 :2:Cb u 1 4 3 3 : 0 32:1o u 4 : 3 3 : u 72:2o 1 4 3 3 : 0 92:3J 0 3 l : 0 9.2:4J 0 the files of the FMSI. I think your counsel would stipulate to that. A Well, I just I don't recognize this as being any kind of a stamp that we ever put on the things. I have seen them on a lot of your things. Q You didn't put that there, sir. The court reporter did. A The next part of the thing is James Armstrong, the Bendix Corporation is the copy. He was chairman of our Asbestos Study Committee, but he was on the committee. I am not sure at that time, but I don't see a copy going to us. Q Well maybe that's how you got. In any event, I got it from the FMSI, and I want to ask you about paragraph 8. A Okay. Q It talks about notifying employees who were exposed over the permissible limit, and one of the things that Mr. Swetonic questions is whether it would be necessary to notify an employee by registered letter or whether it would simply be enough to post a notice on a bulletin board? A That's what it says. That's what it P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (S 18) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 150 3 3 l 3 :11c( u 1 4 3 3 1 5 :2c, 0 31 4 3 3 : 1 6 I) 1 4 3 3 1 8 :4(1 1 4 3 3 2 2 :5J c 1 4 3 3 2 4 :6J 0 1 4 3 3 c 8 :7rJ 0 l 4 3 3 : 3 0 :8:) 0 l 4 3 3 : 3 1 ,9_, u 4 3 3 3 31:0 1 u l 4 3 3 3 51:1u (j 1~: 3 3 4 11:2r, 0 l 4 3 3 : 4 61:3:1 0 l 4 3 3 : 4 s1:4c ,, 3 3 5 :::1:5o 0 1 4 : 3 4 0 o1:6J G 1 4 3 4 0 11:7<! () l 4 3 4 0 ~1:8:1 0 1 4 3 4 0 s1:9J 0 l 4 3 4 0 72:0J 0 l 4 3 4 l 12:1o c 3 4 : 1 i2:2o ,, 1 4 3 4 } G2:3:J () 3 4 1 s2:4o 0 says. Q And he goes on to say that we discussed this with legal counsel and that they indicated that the answer of a question would be in favor of the registered letter approach, and once they had that opinion they decided not to press the issue but they would leave it up to companies to make their own choices? A To my knowledge I have never seen this letter before. Okay? Q All right. Do you think that workers who were exposed to asbestos in excess of the limit should have been told of that? A I believe that around 1978 or '79, yes, that would be so. Whether I would have believed it early on, I don't know. Q What would have changed your opinion in the '78 time frame? A Regulations coming out of Washington. If they said it was, I would accept the fact that it was. I think the OSHA was at least honest. Q Well, sir, I am not asking you for your interpretation of what the law required. I am just asking you as a matter of human decency P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 151 34 ,, ~ -' :1r, 0 1 4 3 4 0 b :2o c' whether you think workers who were exposed to potentially hazardous concentrations of asbestos 1 4 .3 4 ~ 8 :3'1 0 should have been told? 1 4 3 4 -' Jj :4c, 0 ,,1 4 3 4 l :5:! () A They were told. Q They were? '1 4 J 4 1 :6J 0 1 4 3 4 3 3 :7: () A They were told, but maybe not with official documents and all that stuff. But by the :8'1 4 3 4 J ::> v middle of the '70s the fact that asbestos was a 1 4 3 4 3 9 :9:'' 0 hazard was known. It was in these l i t t l e books 1 4 3 4 4 31:0:: 0 that we published, and stuff like that. 1 4 3 4 1 51:1r () Q I'm just asking you whether you think 1 A..: 3 4 4 s1:2u l people who worked with brakes should have been 1 4 3 4 s R1:3l 0 told if they were being exposed to excess levels 1 4 3 4 5 21:4c: 0 of asbestos? 4 ~ 34 5 41:SJ v A Told how? By having a registered letter l 4 3 4 5 41:6~, 0 sent to them or read by a telephone call, or a 1 4 3 5 0 31:7) 0 notice on the bulletin? That's what they were l 4 3 5 0 71:8o Cl talking about; isn't it? 1 4 3 5 0 71:9J 0 Q Well do you know why that the AIA decided l 4 3 5 : 1 12:0:l 0 to -- why they seemed to prefer a posting on a 4 ~ 3b l 32:1o r, bulletin board as opposed to a registered letter? "4 : 3 1 t.2:2o () 1 4 3 l E2:3J 0 A I have no idea. Q They are trying to hide this, weren't 3 5 : 1 s2:4o ,_, they? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 - - --~---------------------------.-------------------- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 152 j 2 : 1 8 :lc c 1 4 3 5 : " u :2'' () 4l j c, : ~ ') :3~ 0 1 4 3 5 : ' 4 :4= 0 1 4 j 5 L G :S: 0 :6:l 4 35 8' ) 0 4 : j 5 3 0 :7r u 1 4 3 5 j l :8:' () 1 4 :'\ 5. 3 3 :9 0 1 4 3 5 .3 71:(}: () 1 4 3 5 3 71:1: 0 l A.,.: 3 5 : 3 91:2: 0 ' 4 3 5 4 1L3: 0 4' 3 5 4 31:4c, ~ 4~ 3 5 4 51:5, (' 1 4 3 5 4 6l:6J 0 l 4 3 5 b J1:7: 0 1 4 :l _c, ~. ::1:8:) 0 1 4 3 5 : s 41:9.: 0 1 4 3 ti () o2:0) 0 't 4 3 E (' 32:1o 0 1 4 3 6 (I :2:2') 0 1 4 3 ti : 0 72:31 0 3 6 1 J2:4u 0 A No. I think it was probably the cost of all these things. Q They were trying to save money? A Probably trying to save money. Q You think because of the postage? A That is my guess. My guess is probably not good enough for you. Q Well if that's your guess, that's fine. You don't think they were trying to hide this or keep this information secret? A I don't believe so. Q Based upon all the contact you had with these various asbestos companies, you think that is something that they would never ever do? A I can't tell. I can tell you my experience with Bendix. Bendix would not have done it, I don't believe. I can't tell you what other people, what they were like. Couldn't belief all these things that have happened with management today that have happened. I believed all those people were telling the truth back in the old days. I didn't realize they were crooks. I think most of the people that I dealt with were honest people. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 153 --- 3 6 : 1 3 :1~ 0 -'l 4 6 : 1 .'> :2u c 1 1 3 6 ' 5 :31 ('t 1 4 3 6 2 ll :4o 0 1 4 3 6 ' ~ :5_, 0 :&1 4 3 6 ~:) ~ 0 14 36 ., - 8 :71_1 u 1 4 3 6 c 8 :&1 0 1 4 3 6 3 0 :9: 0 l 4 3 6 3 11:(}-, () 1 4 : 3 6 ' 31:1' 0 1. .a_: 3 6 3 71:2o 0 1 4 3 6 5 41:3:- 0 1 4 3 6 CJ 41:4o v 1 4 3 7 0 11:51 0 1 4 3 7 0 31:6! 0 1 4 3 7 0 s1:7~ 0 l 4 3 7 8 91:8J 1 4 3 7 1 11:9-J c' l 4 3 7 1 :2:01 0 3 7 1 t2:1u G 3 ; 2 o2:2o 0 1 4 3 7 2 z2:3J 0 3 7 L t2:4o 0 Q You haven't worked for Bendix since 1968; correct? A I think the year might have been 1966, but I am not sure. Q You ever meet with Bendix's lawyers? A Trying to think I did. I did back when I was actively working. Q I mean in recent years? A No. Q Have you ever been called upon to act as a consultant by any of the companies who made or sold brakes? A No. Q For instance, Bendix hasn't retained you as a consultant? A No, they have not. Q Did the -- did the members of the FMSI ever communicate with one another as to whether or not they were warning, and if so, the substance of the warning they were given? A Only to the extent that of that poll that we took there. Q Was there ever any conversations to the effect that if you are going to warn, please let P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 154 "'.3 7 l :1:1 0 1 4 3 7 3 j :2c CJ us know what you are saying so that we can either warn consistent with you or persuade you "1 3 7 14 3 7 :3:: 0 3 "' :4o D "' ,s,l 4 7 j9 u - 4 3 7 1 1 :6. () 1 4 3 7 4 R :7r, 0 otherwise? A I don't believe so, but I am sure you have got a piece of paper that is going to say I said this or said that or something else. So have you got the piece of paper? Can you produce it 1 4 3 8 0 1 :Sri 0 now? I don't believe so. :9:11 4 3 8 0 ~_) 0 Q I will show you what I will mark as 1 4 3 8 I] ll:OJ 0 Exhibit 17, which is again a letter from 1 {~ 3 8 1 s1:l, 0 Mr. Swetonic dated July 12th, 1972, yeah, that's 1A..: 3 8 2 21:2~ 0 Plaintiff's 17, and hand that to you. I am out of 1 4 3 8 1 sLx D paper clips so I ask you to try to keep that 1 4 3 9 0 o1:4c 0 together. Here Mr. Swetonic is excuse me, 1 4 3 9 J ll:S G strike that. ' 4 3 9 u 11:6:: c 1 4 3 9 0 s1:7 0 Here Mr. Swetonic is advocating that each company should decide for itself whether their 1 4 3 9 0 91:8(1 0 products require a label, but he is advocating 1 4 3 9 1 11:9:1 0 uniformity because of if one company decides to 1 4 3 9 : 1 c2:0:J 0 label a certain product and another company 1 4 3 9 1 s2:1u 0 decides not to label the same product, that latter 1 4 3 9 2 o2:2n D company would be placed in a most untenable - 4 3 9 2 42:3:: ,-" position with OSHA. Are you aware of any such 3 9 2 E2:4"1 0 issues being raised among the members of the FMSI P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (51 B) 43B-O 126 Troy (51 B) 2B3-5064 Schenectady (51 B) 355-9216 Clifton Park (51 B) 3B3-1241 Fax (51 B) 446-05B2 -"--"------------------------------------------- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 155 3 9 : 3 3 :lrr CJ with regard to their labeling of asbestos brakes? " 4 3 9 3 s :2o 'J 1 4 3 9 3 9 :SJ 0 A I am having great difficulty here because I don't see FMSI mentioned any place in this 1 4 3 9 4 3 :4IJ 0 letter. Is this something you got from the FMSI 1 4 3 9 4 ~ :5:J 0 files too? It says FMSI? 1 4 3 9 : 4 6 :6:: 0 Q Yes, sir. 1 4 3 9 4 2 :7:: 0 A I don't recognize it again. 1 4 3 9 5 0 :8~ u Q Okay. Well I am just asking you: Do you 1 4 3 9 5 0 :9:! 0 recall any conversations like that occurring among 1 4 4 0 J ol:Cb c the FMSI members? 11:1o4 ~ 4v v v A We told them to obey the law. Now they : .4... : 4 'J v~ 3l:2rJ c themselves interpreted the law the way they wished 1 ~ 4 0 0 '11:31 (j to interpret it. We suggested that they label all 1 4 4 0 1 11:4o 0 their products, that's the only thing we did. We 1 4 4 0 :1 31:5:-J 0 suggested that. Whether they went along with 1 4 4 0 1 s1:6J 0 that, that's something different. 1 4 4 0 : 1 61:7: 0 MR. DeLUCA: Off the video record, 1 4 4 0 : 1 61:8o 0 please. 1 4 4 0 1 s1:9J 0 MR. PIAZZA: The time is now 2:39, 4~ 5 1 3 a2:0! v we will take a pause in the testimony of 1 4 5 1 3 12:1u u Mr. Drislane. l 4 5 1 3 :Q:2r:J c (A short recess was taken.) 1 4 5 1 3 ::2:3J 0 MR. PIAZZA: Time is now 2:50, we 5 1 3 s2:4o 0 will resume the testimony of P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 __- , "------------------------------------ Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 156 Mr. Drislane. 14 s1 '':2oo BY MR. DeLUCA: 1 4 ~ 1 5 Ci :3:1 Q Mr. Drislane, let me hand you what I have 1 4 5 1 4 " :4c: 0 1 4 s 1 4 3 :5::! 0 1 4 s 1 ~ 4 :6c: v 1 4 5 2 () :< :7n 0 1 4 :: 2 0 5 :8:! 0 14 5L 0 g :~ 0 1 4 5 L 1 Jl:Cb 0 5l:lu4~ 2;:) 1 v 1-4..,.: 5 ~ l :ol:2o (j 1 4 5 0 1 sLJ-1 () 1 ~ 5 " : 2 ol:4~, () 1 4 : s 2 : 0 ol:S::, 0 ~ 4 : 5 2 : 0 21:6:1 v 1 4 5 2 L 41:7(: 0 1 4 5 L 3 ol:Sl 0 351 4 "~ 31:~ 0 1 4 5 2 3 Q,(b 0 1 4 ~ 2 3 92:11) 0 1 4 5 2 4 Q:2o 0 1 4 5 2 4 :2:3J 0 5n ~ 4 E2:4c marked as Exhibit 18, which is the August 17th, 1972 minutes of the meeting of the Asbestos Study Committee. Ask you to take a look at them. The portion that I'm interested in asking you about is displayed on the screen. And let me by way of background ask you if you knew a gentleman from Abex named Feierabend? A Yes. Q What was his first name, do you recall? A Eric, E-R-I-C. Q Was he a doctor? A He may have been. I don't think so. Q And he had attended the various meetings of the FMSI over the years, including this meeting of the Asbestos Study Committee? A Okay, yes. Q All right. And at this particular meeting of the Asbestos Study Committee the idea of warning and the idea of caution labels was raised; was it not? A I believe so. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Does it say so in there? Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 -~--~----------------------------------------------- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 157 :lc5 2 ~~ i) 0 1 4 5 2 c, " :2o 0 1 4 :c L 5 cJ :3:! 0 :4o1 4 5 3 : i) 0 i) 1 4 5 3 0 3 :5: 0 1 4 5 3 0 9 :Ei 0 - 4 5 3 1 .3 :7(1 " 1 4 5 3 1 5 :8:' u "1 4 3 1 8 :9:1 0 -1 4 = 3 41:Cxl 0 1 4 5 3 2 s1:LI lj 1 ,A._: 5 3 : 2 s1:2~: 0 1 4 s 3 : .3 11:3:J 0 4~ 5 3 3 11:4o ,, 1 4 5 3 3 31:51 0 1 4 5 3 3 71:6J 0 1 4 5 3 4 11:7u 0 1 4 5 3 4 11:8J 0 1 4 5 3 : 4 s1:9J 0 1 4 5 3 : 4 s2,Q; 0 - 4 5 3 4 s2:1u ., 1 4 : 5 3 5 o2:2o 0 5 3 5 o2:3J v 5 3 5 42:4o 0 Q Yes, sir. A Then if it says so in there, yes. Q Do you recall as these minutes state Mr. Feierabend indicating that the recommendation of putting a notification in boxes of brake linings would not be warmly accepted by many manufacturers? A Where is that? Q It's on page 3 of the document you have but it is here on the screen. A Yeah. Q Right here, sir. A Okay. All right. Q Do you know why he thought that the idea of putting a caution label in or on a box of asbestos brakes would not be warmly accepted by manufacturers? A Because he felt that other people would not be doing it, and he, his company then would suffer. Q Suffer financially? A Yeah. Q And Mr. Wagner, you knew him as an executive of Carlisle; correct? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 158 s 4 0 _, :11: 0 1 4 5 4 0 l :2o 0 1 4 5 4 0 5 :SJ 0 1 4 5 4 0 7 :4o 0 1 4 ~ 4 0 9 :5::1 0 l 4 b 4 1 ~ :6:. 0 1 4 5 4 1 3 :71 J - 4 5 4 1 6 :8~1 u 1 4 5 4 1 6 :9:1 0 1 4 ~ 4 : d:O:I 0 1 4 5 4 1 s1:lo 0 1 A..: 5 4 : 0 ol:2c~ 0 1 4 5 4 "- oLx 0 1 4 5 4 2 4l:4o 0 1 4 : 5 4 ~ 61:5::! c 1 4 : s 4 3 ol:6::c 0 1 4 5 ~ 3 3l:7o 0 1 4 h 4 3 sl:& 0 1 4 5 4 3 9l:9J 0 1 4 : 5 4 4 Q:O:! 0 l 4 5 4 4 E2:lu (J ~ 4 5 4 5 o2:2u 0 l 4 5 4 5 22:3) 0 5 5 : 0 o2:4:; 0 A Yes. Q And he was present at the meeting and he objected, did he not, to this recommendation because he thought it would be another red flag that would bring more harm to the industry than the good that would come from it? A Is that what it says in the minutes there? Q Yes, sir. A Then that's what happened. Q Do you recall those types of discussions occurring? A There was -- there was a lot of discussion about the fact that do we need this warning on a box with friction materials in it when they when that asbestos in the friction materials is actually encapsulated, is one of the words you used before. In other words, do we need it there? Why do we need it? You know, some brake linings and stuff go onto the vehicle without any subsequent machining. So should those products get this label stuck in them? The ones that are going to get additional drilling or chamfering or tapering, okay, they would need it, P.O. Box 124S9 Albany, NY 12212-24S9 Albany (SIB) 43B-O 126 Troy (SIB) 2B3-S064 Schenectady (S IB) 3SS-9216 Clifton Park (SIB) 3B3-1241 Fax (SIB) 446-0SB2 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 159 " 5 : 0 3 :1c' 0 "1 4 5 5 : () :2o 0 1 4 5 5 : 0 7 ::XJ 0 but people might -- some brake linings sets are drilled, chamfered and everything else going out of the factory, why do they have to get that 1 4 5 5 : 1 :' :4c 0 warning in addition to the people in the factory "J 4 5 51 :S~ 0 1 4 s 5 l 6 :&_, v getting the warning? Q Well, wouldn't it be correct, sir, that "1 4 5 : 1 fl :7o 0 1 4 5 5 2 ,, :8:> 0 when those brakes are put in the box, no one really knows how or where or when they are going 1 4 c 5 2 2 :91 0 to be used, and that the possibility of additional 1 4 5 s : :0 d:Q () grinding or drilling always existed? 1 4 5 5 2 s1:1r C) A No. Basically when they provide them in "1 4.._: 5 .3 11:2c, 'J 1 4 5 5 3 31:3J 0 that shape, they are sold with the idea of them going on the shoe or the shoe assembly going to 1 4 5 5 3 91:411 () the customer without any subsequent machining. 1 4 c 5 4 31:5:> 0 Some linings are like that. They came -- they 1 4 : !'- 5 : 4 51:&' () were -- I mean, 1960s when I was with Bendix 1 4 : "' 5 4 21:7( 0 4 5 5 5 o1:8:i ~ ~ before all this, you sold drilled and chamfered and ground segments, period. But when the thing 1 4 5 5 5 41:9> c, went over to rebuilders doing the brakes, then 1 4 ~) 6 0 12:Ql 0 people machined them. But i f you were coming out 1 4 5 6 D 32:1: D of a rebuilder's shop and everything is ground and 1 4 5 6 0 72:2r' 0 drilled and everything else, there wasn't any 1 4 5 6 : 0 92:3J 0 subsequent machining. So there was a question on 5 6 1 s2:4o (I the part of manufacturers whether they had to put P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 - - ----~-------------------------~----------------- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 160 5 6 : 1 b :1c 0 1 4 5 6 : 1 " :2o ~ 1 4 5 6 : 1 8 :3::! 0 :4o1 4 56 : "' ~ 6 0 :S1 ~ 5 6 : 8 0 l 4 56 8 :6 () l 4 "' 6 3 1 :7n c 1 4 ::, 6 3 5 :8~, () 1 4 5 6 -~ '7 :9:-1 0 1 4 5 6 4 -"1:0: 0 l 4 s 6 4 s1:1c 0 L.;1._: 5 6 6l:2c () 1 4 5 6 : ~ s1:3J 0 l 4 5 7 0 l1:4r, 0 l 4 5 7 0 915 IJ 91:61" 4 : :) 7 v u 1 4 5 7 l s1:7r, 0 14 5 -, ' 1 61:8.) 0 1 4 5 7 1 81:9 D 4" 5 '? 0 62:01 2 14 ,, 5' 2 s2:11) C> l 4 5 7 3 n2:2, 0 l 4 : 5 7 3 12:3::! ~ 5 7 3 L2:4o (j this notice. Q Don't you think it would have been prudent for them to ere on the side of warning as opposed to selling products with no warning at all? A You have to go back in that time and see what people felt at that particular time. A lot of people did not feel there was any more grinding or called for on these pieces, those products, so why should they give all this information? You have to live in that day. It is so easy to sit here and criticize and backseat drive. But in those days you had to go and-- you weren't going to do all the extra work on the linings if your competition wasn't. Q So are you telling me that in your view the brake companies, the people who made and sold asbestos brakes really were concerned about what that industry was doing as a whole, and that deviations from what the industry was doing as a whole were not looked upon very favorably? MR. MENDRZYCKI: Objection. MR. POLCHINSKI: Objection. THE WITNESS: I said exactly what I P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446"0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 161 2 7 : 3 3 :J!J 0 said before. If you can go and get that 14 57 14 : 57 ' :-, :2:: 0 j -; ,):, J answer, I would give you the same answer again if I could remember it. 1 4 5 7 4 1 :4o 0 BY MR. DeLUCA: 1 4 5 7 4 l :SJ 0 Q Do you know what is meant by the term 1 4 5 7 4 J :&1 0 "concerted action"? 1 4 5 7 4 ~) :7o u A No. 1 4 5 7 4 5 :8'> (! Q Let me provide you with a definition of 1 4 57 s :9:1 0 that. "Concerted action" is the taking of action 1 4 5 7 5 '1:0:: 0 as a group for a common cause. 1 4 5 8 D o1:1c 0 A Okay. : -il...: J 8 v o1:2o 0v Q All right. Would you agree that the 1 4 5 8 0 31:3::> 0 brake companies engaged in concerted action to 1 4 5 8 0 71:4o 0 delay warnings about the hazards of asbestos? l 4 5 8 : 1 ~1:~ 0 (Objection by all at the same time. J 4 : 5 8 1 11:&1 u THE WITNESS: No. Because I think 1 4 5 8 1 31:7<) 0 they were waiting to find out what they 14 58 51:8o 0 ~ didn't know what the danger was at that 1 4 5 8 : 1 81:9: 0 time. This thing didn't develop all of a 54 : 8 ,Q,Q; ~ L sudden in January 1st, 1971. It l 4 5 8 2 42:11 0 developed over ten or twelve years there. 1 4 5 8 L t2:2rJ 0 BY MR. DeLUCA: 1 4 : 5 8 : 2 t2:3J 0 Q You are saying these companies didn't : 5 9 : 0 12:4o 0 know that asbestos was dangerous? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 -------- Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 162 ----- 5 9 : l) :1 :lo (I :2Jl ~ ~) 9 : 1 0 l 4 5 9 l 1 :3:~ 0 :4c4 s 9 : 1 5 ~ C l 4 ::, 9 l 8 :SJ u 1 4 5 9 : 2 r, :6::1 0 l 4 5 9 : ' ~ :7'1 0 :8:1 4 5 9 : ~ <5 0 l 4 5 9 ,_ <5 :9-' c l 4 5 9 ~ sl:Q, () 1 4 5 9 : .'l 11:11_1 0 1~: 5 9 : 3 sl:2o 0 1 4 5 9 : 3 71:3::) 0 1 4 5 9 : 3 9l:4c 0 3l:SJ4 ~ :) 9 4 v 1 4 s 9 5 ol:6.' 0 1 4 5 9 5 21:7o 0 1 4 5 9 : 5 21:8J 0 1 5 : 0 0 0 ol:9J 'J i 5 : 0 0v, lo :J2:()J ,, 1 5 0 0 0 :t2:lo 0 1 5 0 0 0 s2:21.J 0 1 5 0 0 : 1 '..2:3:J 0 0 u : 1 <S2:4o u A Absolutely they didn't know it at the beginning of this period. Q Here is a letter, sir, dated October 1st, 1935. Okay. This is a letter from Sumner Simpson, do you know him as the president of Raybestos-Manhattan? A I recall that, yes. Yes, but I did not know him. Q I understand that, sir. To Vandiver Brown, who was the attorney for Johns-Manville. You see this here, it says, "I think the less said about asbestos the better off we are." Have you ever seen that before? A Nope. I may have seen it. I just because I know if I say no, you are going to produce the letter sometime, but I don't remember having seen it. Q You subscribed to Asbestos Magazine for many years? A I did, yes. Q Okay. Here is a letter from the editor of Asbestos Magazine to Sumner Simpson, and the date on this letter is September 25th, 1935. And it says, "Always you have requested that for P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 163 0 0 : 1 8 :1. 0 5 : 0 0 2 L) :2c' 8 ~ l 5 : 0 0 2 ., :3:' () l 5 0 0 ~ 6 :4o 0 l 5 0 0 <" 8 :5:1 0 l 5 u 0 : 3 0 :6J 0 l 5 0 0 3 " :7: 0 ..l 5 : 0 0 3 3 :8n ~ c~ 5 : 0 3 9 :9:! c 1 5 : 0 0 4 11:01 0 1 5 : u 0 4 31:1u () 1~: 0 0 4 51:2u u l 5 0 0 : 4 61:3: 0 1 5 0 0 4 s1:4o 0 l 5 : 0 0 5 o1:51 c l 5 : 0 c 5 21:6) u l 5 : 0 0 5 41:7o 0 l 5 : 0 l 0 c1:8! 0 l 5 : 0 1 0 31:9:! 0 l 5 : 0 1 0 s2:0:: 0 l 5 : 0 1 0 92:1o c 5 : 0 l 1 Q:2o u ~ ~ 5 : 0 1 l 32:3:! 0 0 1 1 s2:4o 0 certain obvious reasons we publish nothing and naturally your wishes have been respected." Speaking about asbestosis and the hazards of asbestos. Do you see that? A I am having trouble reading it. My eyes aren't good or something, or the type is not satisfactory. Q Well, the letter is 77 years old. It is almost 67 years old? A 67 because it is -- all right. Q Long time ago. A I am having trouble. The second paragraph, you have recasted that. Read it to me, please. Q "Always you have requested that for certain obvious reasons we publish nothing. And naturally your wishes have been respected." A That's what it says there, doesn't it? I never saw it or I don't believe I ever saw it. Q So when you say that these companies didn't know about the hazards, you really have no basis to say that? MR. MENDRZYCKI: Objection. P. 0. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 MR. POLCHINSKI: Objection. Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 164 () 1 1 :) :lc.: 0 1 5 : o 1 1 5 :2n 1 THE WITNESS: I don't know what 1 5 : 0 1 1 b :3:1 c these people knew. I'm me. Those people 1 s o 1 : 1 s :4u u are them. You are talking of guys 1 5 Bill Simpson from Raybestos or someplace, 1 5 : 0 1 2 :6:=, 0 and some lawyer or something like that. 1 5 : o 1 2 4 :7c o BY MR. DeLUCA: J 5 : 0 1 c 6 :&, 0 Q Bill, did you know Bill? ~ 5 : 0 1 2 8 :~' 0 A No, I did not. "1 5 : 1~~ 3 ol:O~' 0 1 5 : 0 1 3 1l:lcl 0 Q Because this guy's name is Sumner Simpson, but he had a son named William. And I l..!l._: 0 1 3 51:2: 0 was wondering when you said Bill -- 1 :0 : 0 1 3 5l:}l 0 A I thought Bill was Sumner. I didn't know l 5 : 0 1 4 11:4o " 1 5 : 0 1 4 3l:5J 0 that. Q Okay. All right. 1 5 : 0 ~ 4 3l:6J 0 A I don't know what they knew or what they 1 5 : 0 1 : 5 ol:7'J 0 were saying. I have enough God damn trouble 1 5 : 0 1 5 21:8c 0 remembering what I said. ~ 5 : 0 2 0 ol:9J J Q In one of your documents, FMSI documents 1 5 : 0 ~ 0 32:01 0 you state that some have alleged that there has J 5 : 0 2 0 :2:1J 0 been a cover up of the asbestos hazards? 1 5 : 0 2 0 <J2:2,l 0 A Did I say that? 1 5 0 2 1 12:3J 0 Q It is in an FMSI document. 0 3 : 1 12:4o 0 A It is? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 165 0 3 : 1 3 :lc o 1 5 : 0 3 1 3 :2c, o 31 5 : 0 1 G :}l 0 31 :0 : J :4(1 0 3 :5:1l 5 : 0 ~ ~ () 1 5 : 0 3 : - G :6c 0 31 5 : 0 2 8 :7r, !) ,&,5 : 0 3 3 0 ~ " 31 5 : 0 3 1 :9:'1 n 1 5 : J 3 : 3 3l:OJ 0 1 5 : 0 3 : 3 71:1!J 0 -1 s . 0 3 : 3 91:2~: 0 31 5 : 0 3 9l:3c 0 3l 5 : 0 4 3l:4u 0 4~ 5 : 0 3 :ls~ c 1 5 : 0 3 4 sl:6J c 31 5 : 0 5 ol:7o 0 1 5 : 0 3 5 41:8o 0 1 5 : 0 4 0 ol:9~ 0 1 5 : 0 4 0 c12:0) 0 1 5 0 4 0 12:lu 0 1 5 0 4 0 Q:2o 0 1 5 0 4 0 s2:3J 0 : 0 4 : 0 72:4o 0 Q It is. A Can you point it out to me? Q Sure. It is a memo you wrote February 13th, 1975. It's your name there; right? A Yes. Q Okay. It is an article most critical of industry alleging a cover up helped along by some scientists, do you remember that? A I see it there now. I did write it. Okay. I don't remember it, no. Q Do you remember any of the details of that alleged cover up? A No, I do not. Why don't you bring out the memo that shows what I did and say, "Did you write this?" And I would be happy. But you are going to ask all these questions and then prove me wrong, and then come back with the correct. Why don't you just come with the correct one and let me see it? Q Sir, I am not trying to embarrass you or give you a hard time here. If that's what you think I'm doing-- A You start everything with, what do you think of this, and what do you think of that, or P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 166 0 4 0 7 :lo 0 something else like that. Then you come and show 1 5 : 0 4 0 c :2c) (1 me the letter later on. Why the hell don't you 1 5 : 0 4 1 3 :30 0 show me the letter at the beginning? 1 5 : 0 4 1 5 :4c iJ MR. HARKINS: We have been going for 15 : 0 4 l 5 : 04 "1 :5J 0 1 6 :fu l over five hours. THE WITNESS: I mean, this goes on 5 : 0 4 1 R :7o ~ ~ forever. ~ 5 : 0 4 1 8 :B:l 0 MR. HARKINS: The hour is getting 15 : 04 :9J 0 late. It doesn't seem like we would come 15 : ~ u .-; ~ 4l:OJ 0 close to finishing today. I don't want 15 : 04 Gl:1J 0 to impede your interrogation, but if ~ : 0 4 : ;:: 6l:2o 0 there is a good breaking point, I would 1 5 : 0 4 3 ol:30 0 respectfully request in view of the 1 5 : 0 4 3 1l:4o 0 witness' age that we terminate as soon as l 5: 04 3 3l:5J ~ '~ you feel it a good point. 5 : 0 4 3 ::,l:fu C) ~ MR. DeLUCA: Let's go off the video 1 5 : 0 4 3 ;l:7o record, please. 1 5 c 3 9l:8J 0 MR. PIAZZA: The time is 3:03, we 1 5 0 4 4 3l:9J 0 will take a pause in the testimony of 1 5 : 0 4 4 t2:0J 0 Mr. Drislane. L 5 : 0 4 4 t2:lo v MR. DeLUCA: Stay on the written 1 5 0 4 5 :2:2o 0 record. In response to what you just 1 5 0 4 5 42:30 0 said here is what I would propose: I am ; 0 J : 0 i2:4o 0 willing to adjourn the deposition right P. 0. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 -- - ~- ------------------------------.---------------- Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 167 0 5 : 1 3 :1~: () now to be completed at some later date. 1 5 : 0 5 l ~) :2c, 0 Next Monday, on the 28th, Judge Gilmore, -1 5 : 0 c l E :31 0 1 5 : 0 5 2 7 :4u 0 Washington County, is scheduled to hear the motion for summary judgment filed by 1 5 : 0 = 2 6 :5.1 0 1 5 : 0 5 3 0 :&1 0 the FMSI. I think that my client is entitled to complete this deposition 1 5 : 0 5 3 1 :7o (I prior to arguing that motion. And I have "1 5 : 0 2 3 :8:1 0 l 5 : 0 5 3 q :9:1 0 ,,l 5 0 4 11:C)J 0 ,,1 5 0 4 :c,1,1o n raised this issue with Mr. Harkins, and I will let Mr. Harkins speak for himself, but I believe that he is agreeable to that. 1~ : 0 5 4 51:2o 0 We discussed having a conference l J : 0 5 4 d:3J 0 call tomorrow morning where we would 1 5 : 0 c 4 61:4o 0 advise Judge Gilmore that we began the 1 5 : 0 5 5 o1:5J 0 deposition, and that for certain reasons 1 5 : 0 5 5 :1:6o ,, we were unable to finish it, and that we l 5 : 0 s 5 41:70 0 have agreed to do it in the near future, 1 5 : 0 6 : 0 o1:8o 0 1 5 : 0G ,, v ::1:9:1 C' and we have agreed to put off argument if the court pleases until this deposition 1 5 : 0 6 0 72:0:! 0 is done. 1 5 : 0 6 J 92:1o 0 In addition, we discussed the fact l 5 : 06 12:2o 0 that I did have a lot of issues that I 1 5 0 6 1 52:3J 0 wanted to cover with Mr. Drislane, and 0 t 1 s2:4o () some of the attorneys here thought that P.O. Box 12459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 ______________________________________,,___________C_lift_on_PFa_arkx_((5511_88))_4384_36--10_2548_12 _~ Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 168 0 6 ,, 0 :lo 0 "1 0 6 l 5 D6 :2o:' 4 ,~, n 6 ::XI 0 '1 5 D 6 l :4o 1 C) J 6 3 7 :S'j 0 1 5 0 6 1 9 :6J 0 ,,1 0 6 " "' :7o 0 s1 J 6 6 :8~1 0 15 ,, u 6 8 :9J 0 1 5 0 6 ",l ol:w 0 1 5 0 6 5 :::l:h 0 L-'2 : ,, 'J 6 5 41:2o 0 1 ~) 0 7 0 3L3J 0 1 5 c 7 0 5l:4o 0 1 2 : v 7 0 7l:5:J 0 1 CJ c 7 () c;l:6J () 1 5 () 7 l 11:7o 0 1 2 0 7 1 :ll:Bo 0 1 5 0 7 1 6l:9J 0 1 s : 0 7 1 s2,0J 0 1 5 : 0 7 ",, o2:lo 0 l 5 : 0 7 L 62:2o 0 1 5 : () 7 j o2:3J J 7 3 J2:4o 0 perhaps we should schedule two days in which to complete that. I have told Mr. Harkins that I would represent to him that I would agree to only doing one full day of further direct, and assuming it is a full day from ten to five or so, if that would be of assistance to him and his client. And, of course, Mr. Harkins raised the issue we will be able to do a full day given the deponent's health, but I still make that representation to you. I am willing to adjourn this right now subject to what I have said. MR. HARKINS: I understand and I am in basic agreement with the terms you just outlined. MR. DeLUCA: Well given that, Mr. Drislane, we are going to adjourn this deposition today. I will be in contact with Mr. Harkins to find a date that's convenient for you. We can hold this deposition at that hotel that you mentioned earlier. Which hotel was that? THE WITNESS: What's what's P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 169 0 7 -' 3 :1o c, "1 ~ c 7 5 :2o 0 1 5 0 7 4 5 :3::1 0 1 = : () 7 4 5 :4c 0 1 5 : IJ 7 1 5 :5:1 J :6Jl ::> : C) 7 4 5 0 "1 : (j 7 1 s : u7 4 5 :7o 0 i~ 5 :8o 0 1 5 : 0 7 4 5 :9:! IJ 1 :) 0 7 4 s1:C):' 0 ,, s1:1o1 _~:-, 7 1 0 ~ : 0 7 1 s1:2o J 1 ~' : 0 7 4 s1:3:J l) 1 5 c 7 " s1:4o 0 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 the -- Desmond. See what I am saying? MR. DeLUCA: We will hold it at the Desmond, and I thank you for your time today. (The videotaped deposition of Edward W. Drislane in the above-entitled matter was adjourned at 3:07p.m.) (Exhibits 1 - 18, with the exception of Exhibit 11 which was never marked, are attached to this original deposition, and a copy has been produced for each person ordering a copy of the transcript by this reporter.) P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Drislane - By Mr. DeLuca 1 170 t J 7 4 5 :1o 0 D 7 4 5 :2o 0 CE RT I F I CAT I 0 N -) 7 4 5 :3J 0 0 7 4 5 :4o 0 0 7 : 4 5 :SJ 0 0 7 4 ~ :fu 0 0 7 4 5 :7o 0 0 7 4 5 :Be 0 : 0 7 : 4 5 :9J 0 I, PEGGY ALEXY, Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of New York, do hereby CERTIFY that the foregoing record taken by me at the time and place noted in the heading hereof is a true and accurate transcript of the same, to the best of my ability and belief. 0 7 4 51:Cb 0 () 7 4 51:1o 0 - r) 7 J7 4 s1:2o o 4 s1:3J o Q 7 4 s1:4o o I --..... - ________r~~~-1.--~-=~t----- PEGGY ALEXY 0 7 4 s1:5J o 0 7 4 s1:6:J o DATED: October 30, 2002 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582