Document Dvy0xwnepoVd4p6JoQwe1Dwqn

FILE NAME: Wagner (WAG) DATE: 1989 June 13 DOC#: WAG021 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Legal - Deposition of Edward C. Rabn --i IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF DELAWARE CD CD C O N S T A N C E A. NE WTON, Individually and as Executrix of the E s t a t e of H U B E R T G. WELLS, and BETTY WELLS, I n d i v i d u a l l y and as W i d o w of H U B E R T G. WELL , etal, Plaintiffs vs. A . C . u S . , etal Defendants - -- n > b AS 5 - 4 3 5 ( JJF Oral d e p o s i t i o n of E D W A R D R ABON, taker. p u r s u a n t to notice, was held st the Lsw O f f i c e s cf C- !cTiC J O S ? p h f P a c k a r d Bu i l d i n g , 17th Floor , 15 th and C Streets, Ph il ad e l p h i a , P e n n s y l v a n i a 19102 on Monday, 13, 1989, inning at 10:20 a .rn. , be fo re Del R e g i s t e r e d P r o f e s s i o n a l Re por u er-Come.i ss iona r of Dee there being orsent . A ? P A.Kr\. NC mZjoo ;. BAYARD,HANDELMAN & MURDOCH, P.A. BY: PH E B E S. YOUNG, ES QU IR E Post Office Box 25130 Wilmington, Delaware 19899 Phone: (302) 429-4236 R e p r e s e n t i n g C h a r le s A. W a c n e r Co Inc. A - 102 nn MARKFT TRFET Kmrw-mwpn 54CM ? 1 P P E F R A N C E S : (c o n t i n u e d ) 2 GOLDFEIN & JOSEPH 3 BY: G A R Y H. K A P L A N , E S Q U I R E Packard Building, 17th Floor 4 15th and Chestnut Streets Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102 5 Phone; {215) 977-9800 Representing Asbestos Corporation 6 Limited 7 8 9 10 i 1 12 13 1 4 15 15 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A- 103 25 DO M A R K E T S T R E E I P H IL A D E L P H IA ,P A 19106 Kmpsx-coKsn COURT REPORTING SERVICE PhONE (2 1 5 ) 928-9300 S DW .RD R A B O N Okay. And what coes that mean by supplier? A. We are a dist r i b u t e r , an agent or whatever t e r m i n o l o g y is used for raw m a t e r i a l s to ce rtai n a industries, and we must get those raw materials td neool who make them, and in turn sell them to the people who use them. And in a sense vre act as a sales arm for the raw' su ppliers, one of tne d e s c r i p t i o n s of the distributor. Q. In this case th en for the A m e r i c a n Ch em et C o r p o r a t i o n , wo u l d it he c o r r e c t to a s su me that vou were 10 p r o v i d e d Cooper Quices bv A m e r i c a n Chemet Cor por atio: 12 Q. By you I mean C h a r l e s 'Wagner 13 A . Yes. Q. And for p u rp os es of this d e p o s i t i o n when 1 refer to 15 vou, unless I state otherwise, ;'ll be r e f e rr in g to Chsrle: 16 Wa cn er . Is that okay, sir? 17 A . Yes. IS Q. Okay. Now you sa id raw m a t e ri al s. 'Were all of the 19 suoolies that you carried and distributed raw materials? 20 A. Yes. In our t e r m i n o l o g y they were raw m a t e r i a l s . ; 21 can't think of a d i f f er en t t e r m i n o l o g y for them. 2 2 q. And you said in your t e r m i n o l o g y . 23 A . Uh-huh . 24 q. Why don't you describe for me what you mean then by 25 raw materials. A-104 /`C'A S l iP T i P --i PHONp 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1 y 1 2 13 1 4 15 lo 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 2 4 25 EDWARD RABON 9 . W e l l raw m a t e r i a l s to us means that they are :o ducts which, are p u r c h a s e d by a m a n u f a c t u r e r to be used suallv and a l mo st o n ly in c o n j u n c t i o n with other p r o d u c t s o make a finished product. It's an ingredient we supply those finished products, We don't supply finished duct s per se. V?e s u p p l y n o t h i n g th at the c u s t o m e r take s us es as is . It's us ed in some m a n n e r in the a n uf ac tu re of his product. The raw materi al s says up here he raw materials for and we list the industries on tne beet. So we supply various raw materials for paints, a r io u s r a w m a t e r i a 1 s to ma k e rubber anc so on. Okay. And by the sheet, you are r e f e r r i n g to an xhibit which has been marked Exhibit 1 ? h-huh . ). Did you carry any other min erais for A m e r i c a n Ch e m e t ;o'.'poration? 4. No . Are they listed on Exhibit 1 because they were a major s u p p l i e r of yours?, A. No. They were not a major supplier. q. W h a t purpose were they listed here on the b r o c h u r e itself? A, They were listed just to advertise the fact we had Copper Oxides. I have no other reason for that. q. In fact when I said the brochure, I'm r e f e r r i n g to 400 M A R K E T S T R E E T P H IL A D E L P H IA , PA 19106 A - 10 5 Kmpsi-coHsn r.nilRT RFPnRTIMO RFRVIOF ph o n e. (2 1 5 ' 528-9200 E D G A R D R A hiU N 12 1 The ne xt c o m p a n y l i s t e d on E x h i b i t 1 is .met lean 2 lloid Company. 3 Right. 4 . Do you know where they are located? 5 Yes. Their o f fi ce s are in Skokie I believe, which 6 s a s u b u r b in C h i c a e o and the s l a n t s are l o c a te d in 7 yoming and South Dakota. n/i . ( ~ t\ 8 D o e s C h a r l e s K e e n e r C o m p a n y still trpp2.-y-- then?, Q Yes, we co. ID A -T-o. A m e r i c a n C o l l o i d C o m p a n y ? 11 'es I w e do. 1 2 H o w lone have vou have been s uno 1 vir.c m a t e r i a l s &-rh 13 American Colloid Company? 1 4 I would say fifty years to my personal knowledge. 15 }, On the b r o c h u r e you list Y o i c l a y B e n t o n i t e as the 16 n a te ri el -- or excuse me -- as a s u b s t a n c e w h i c h is 17 suDoliec from American. Strike the question. Let me 18 r e oh ra se it. On your b r o c h u r e you list Volclay B e n t o n i t e 19 as a substance which you received from American Colloid 20 Company. Did you receive any other substances from them? 21 A. B e n t o n i t e is a ge n e r i c te rm for a type of clay th ey 22 m a n u f a c t u r e d . V o l c l a y is thei r own trade name. So all of 23 their p r o d u c t s are called or are classified under V o l c l a y 24 Be ntonite, but there's a number of grades. Th e y are 25 s e g r e g a t e d by part icle size, for purp oses which they're A-10G 400 M ARKET STREET P H IL A D E L P H IA ,P A 19106 KmPHi-COKEft COURT REPORTING SERVICE PHONE. !215) S28-9300 EDWARD RA30N 14 1 h e y air dr y it for a l e n g t h of t i m e and then th ey ta ke it 2 nto the plant, cr us h it. It comes out and by this time 3 t's h a r d lumps. T h e y cr u s h it. T h e y dry it further and 4 hey put it th ro u g h a g r i n d i n g o p e r a t i o n to make the mesh 5 ize, the particular grade size, two hundred mesh, three 6 u n d r e d me sh , six h u n d r e d mesh. An d th en it's put in H 7 torage toppers and then it's cagced usually m a fifty S lounc p a p e r bag or a h u n d r e d p o u n d pa pe r bag. os I % Let's turn to the next ccmoanv. American Tripoli 10 >iv i s i c n , w h a t die t h e y s u p p ly , sir? 1i v Tr id o 1i 1~ }. A n d v;hat is T r i p o l i ? 13 Tr ip ol i is a silicons type cf product. It's about 14 70, 80 p e r c e n t s i li ca , but it's a p a r t i c u l a r k i n d of 15 silica. It 's un iq ue . &rrry T r i p o l i at that t i m e was the 16 only one I believe mi ni ng it. It comes from Missouri. 17 I t 's used as a polishing compound, automotive cleaners, and IB va ri o u s types of polishing compounds, plus other abrasive 19 o p e r a t i o n s . It's p a r t s -- l i t t l e pa r t s that- m a d e 20 p o l i s h i n g , put up a g a i n s t the p o l i s h i n g wheel. It's an 21 abrasive material. A natural abrasive. 22 q. v.'as A m e r i c a n T r i p o l i D i v i s i o n a client o f yo u r s in 23 the 1950s? 24 MS. YOUNG: A client. 25 A- 107 403 M A R K E T S T R E E T P H IL A D E L P H 1 A, PA 191D6 K tlP E J-C O K E ft COURT REPORTING SERVICE PHONE1215) S2S-S300 ED'WAED RA30N 2 G 1 middleman? 2 A. That's right. 3 Q. R e s p o n s i b l e for the sales of these raw mi nerals to / the various companies located within geographical 5 b o u n d a r i e s as set by the companies in your -- 6 A . T h a t 's r i g h t . 7 Q, 8 A. -- servicing? It w a s n ' t al wa ys the same. it va r i e d w i t h a ff er en t Q p r i n c i p a l s or su pp li er s d e p e n d i n g upon c e rt ai n fact ors, 10 Q. he l l was that the w a y it was wi t h ACL? Ev ACL I'm 11 referrinc to Asbestos Ccrooration Limited. 1 2 HS . YOUN G ; _t w as -- 13 THE W I T N E S S :: Qu i t e the 14 HS . Y O U N G : -- cuite th 15 16 BY HR. KAPLAN: 17 Q. Did your profit come from upping the cost of the 18 m i n e r a l s that you r e c e i v e d or the raw fibe rs th a t you 19 received? 20 A. It was -- I t 's the same wi th ACL as wi th ev er y 21 supplier we've ever represented. That's our business. We 22 are d i s t r i b u t o r s )for ag ents. As I've d e s c r i b e d br ie fly , 23 we -- our su pp ly of raw m a t e r i a l s was by the s u p p l i e r . We 24 w o u l d ask th em for ACL p r o d u c t s and we sell t h e m and 25 o b v i o u s l y it increased pr ic e for the service. T h e y 'r e two 00 M ARKET STREET P H IL A D E L P H IA , PA 19106 A - 108 Kmpss-coKsn c m iD*r o c d a d t m / ecov/rc PHONE: C2151 92E-9300 EDWARD RA3 0N 21 1 ypes of sales. In some cases the ACL and other princioals 2 ould ship directly to the customer, to the consuming 3 ustonier. If it w e r e a tr uc k, full t r u c k l o a d or carload, 4 hen we become would get a commission. The lesser 5 &-rircrc-k s a l e s w o u l d co me in t o our w a r e h o u s e e i t h e r by 6 ruck, t r u c k l o a d or by c a rl oa d and sh i p p e d out in smaller 7 uantities. That's the pattern for the operation with ail 8 he people we represented. D I v,:ant to get in to that, but th at will be later in ID he d e p o s i t i o n . L e t ' s c o n t i n u e v.run the c o m p a n i e s here. 11 12 ). 13 Okay. The next c o m p a n y on yo ur d i s c i n g is D e c u s s a . T h e y call it De cu ss a. 14 'i. Tear, k v o u . 15 16 2. 3y G e r m a n company, aie u ; e v lo ca te d in W e s : Ger man v ? 17 K. T h e y ' r e -- Yes. Their major o p er at io ns are in West 18 G e r m a n y , h o w e v e r , they have one no w at a U.S. p l a n t do w n in 19 Lousiana. 20 Q. When was that plant started? 21 A. Oh, that was started maybe fifteen years ago. 22 Q. So a p p r o x i m a t e l y 1970 or later than t h a t ? 23 A. A p p r o x i m a t e l y . Yes. Somewhere in the early '70s. 24 That's my best estimate. Prior to that they sold the 25 p r o d u c t s th at was m a n u f a c t u r e d in Ge rm an y, s h i p p e d over A-109 00 M A R K E T S T R E E T P H IL A D E L P H IA , PA 19106 K fH P E i-C O K S n COURT REPORTING SERVICE PHONE. (215) 92B-S300 E D Vi r.n D .3r.D 0 M __ ' r. *----l--^ 1 ere and sold that way./\ They had their own plant here 2 aking the product. 3 . How Iona have vou had a business relationship with 4 equssa? 5 About twenty years. 6 So so me time in the ea r l y '60s? 7 Yes. Early or late. 8 You still have a current business relationshio with 9 h pm? 10 . Yes. 11 tinder D e c u s s a you state, or it s t a t e s ' i n the 12 rochure, Aerosil and Flatting Agents, and Carbon Blacks. 13 'by do n' t you d e s c r i b e for me wh at th e y are? 1 4 , K e l l A e r o s i l is their trace name. T h a t ' s D e c u s s a ' s 15 rade name for a family of products. It's d e s c r i b e e as a 16 y r o g e n i c silica. T h i s is a m a n u f a c t u r e d p r o d u c t w h i c h is 17 isnufacturea by the flame process. I'm not q u a l i f i e d to go 1 8 nto the d e t a i l s of m a n u f a c t u r i n g , except that it 's as 19 [i st inc u i she a from a m i n e d p r o d u c t t'his is a m a n u f a c t u r e d 20 21 2 . So this is one of the few p r o d u c t s wh ic h is 22 manufactured that you referred to earlier? 23 A. No. You have to d i s t i n g u i s h the time here. K e 're 24 t a l k i n g ba ck in the ' 5 Q s f ea rl y `50s and '60s. Ke did not 25 have some of these products. So there maybe a chance m A-110 400 M A R K E T S T R E E T P H IL A D E L P H IA ,P A 19106 KiPsFc Kn P'TM I D T D C O n D T I M O C C O V I P C PHONE: 1215i 928-9300 i 2 3 4 5 6 7 6 9 O 11 i 2 13 1 4 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2253 EDWARD E A3ON 2 3 r o c k e t line. But still the b a c k b o n e of our business is we es cribe as nonmetslic mi ne r a l s to distinguish them from r o n h T h er e' s a list of the m e t a l i c mi ne rals, but we do ave some of these other p r o d u c t s . A e r o s i l is one of them. Flatting agents again it's still the Aerosil ro duct, but it's used. You wa nt a flat wall paint? In lace of g l o s s y wa ll p a i n t s yo u put a f l a t t i n g ag ent in it. a r b o n B l a c k is ma de s e p a r a t e . Th ey do n' t ma ke the c a r b o n lack here. Carbon Bl a c k s are made in a separate process .nc o b e y are used as p i g m e n t s , c o l o r i n g pa in ts , ru bb er , elastics, cork co ve ri ng . C o v e r i n g the black of c o ur se arid .t 's C a r b o n Bl a c k at blac k. }. How cia Charles Wagner originally become connected C US S c ? k. Th ey came to us. In the areas wh er e I p e r s o n a l l y ,,'as i n v o l v e d , I can tell you as I did wi th A m e r i c a n Colloid. Them too. De gussa came to us ana said we'r e a o 1'na to m a r k e t our o r o d u c t in the U n i t e d S t a t e s w h i c h we h a v e pJHrra-Hry only m a r k e t e d to other c o u n t r i e s b e s i d e the United States. Are you interested? And I said yes, we are i n t e r e s t e d , and it we nt f r o m there. q, d o you know how they found your name? A. V?ell, yes, b e c a u s e I w o u l d g u e s s they w o u l d know. We had fairly -- We were fairly well-known after having s t a r t e d in 1910, i n c o r p o r a t e d in 1920, always in 400 M A R K E T S T R E E T P H IL A D E L P H IA ,P A 19106 5gBi3il!SBiSMSSa^^ A - 113 KHIPES-COKSn COURT REPORTING SERVICE PHONE. <2151 928-9300 EDWARD RABON A. Stil l is. Q. -- in Ph il a d e l p h i a . Do you work out of -- Does Charles Wagner operate out of a warehouse there? A.. Yes. The warehouse ana office is combined. Q. Ana who owns that building? 6 A. Ky wi fe end I. 7 Q. When did you become the owner of that building? 8 A. "Without referringto records, perhaps twenty years Q jCO, 10 Q. ?r io 'ho owned ~ i*i 1 11 * Mr . W a g n e r , C h a r l e s A ke en er . 1 2 Q. 13 A , Does No . 1 i !o. I 1'm serrv. Die C h a r l e s W a c n e r C o m o a n v own an' 15 ecu ipm ent ? 16 A. We c 17 rn c 1 u d ing e 18 m a c h i n e thE 19 equ ipm ent. 20 say a s ev i 21 Q. It' 22 A. Yes o 0 I . 23 Q. If 2 4 A. It 25 Q. H ow 4n0u0nMaAr\RPKiEpThiSaT RPEAE1T9106 A-112 KfflPEX-COKSft PHONE' (2151 926-9300 EDWARD RABON 28 I ix t h Street? 2 'Twenty-five thousand square feet. 3 How m a n y floors is at that w a r e h o u s e ? 4 One . 5 And you say there's office space there also? 6 Yes . 7 MR. KAPLAN: Let's o off the record 8 for a second. oy IO (W h e r e u p o r. a d i s c u s s i o n was he l d off the 11 r e c o r d at this time.) * y 13 \1r 'I''A*-1S, 2T~ln L\ . i 4 r . R s b o n , how m u c h of y ou r 'w a r e h o u s e i r ,,sec f c r 15 toraqe purposes? 16 4. All of it. Oh, wa i t a m i n u te . Of c o u r se , the 17 o f f i c e is pa r t of the t w e n t y - f i v e t h o u s a n d s q u a r e feet. So 18 I don't kn ov whether we have twenty-five hundred, three 19 t h o u s a n d s q u a r e feet for of fice. The rest of it is 20 w a r e h o u s e . I t 's all w a r e h o u s e exce pt for the of fi ce . 21 0 . And who has their offices located there? Who in 22 particular? 23 A. We did. C h a r l e s A. W a g n e r Co mpany. 24 q . A n d who in p a r t i c u l a r has an o f f i c e t h e r e ? In oth er 25 words, do you currently have an office there? 00 M A RKET STREET d u n e n f i P H IA PA 1910S A-113 K rttP S i-C O K S n ~/-M !O T D C D n D T IM C C t D \ / ir P PHONE (2151 928-9300 EDWARD R.4B0N 30 Q. Any pact of the c o un tr y you didn 't visit on behalf 2 :of C h a r l e s W a c n e r in an a t t e m p t to b r i n g in bu si n e s s ? 3 A. I ca n ' t answer that ei th er . I v i s i t e d any part of 4 the country. I was not limited. At the time we're 5 s p e a k i n g of now is -- I came there in 1929. So w e 're 6 t a l k i n g e i th er fo rt y -- t w e n t y - f i v e ye a r s at th is time, an 7 I had a pretty good background. And I was Vice President 8 at that time. And that was one of i?,v major 9 lr e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s ,7 was to a c c-u i.r e ana ma k e ce rt ai n we hac a 10 line of p r o d u c t s which were most d e s i r a b l e to have and to 1 1 m a r k e t in our t e r r i t o r y and But as to where I went, I 12 fi rs t we n t as far as C a l i f o r n i a . 13 Q. 1 4 How far south? Did you ever CO ho Texas? T e xa s, yes. Flor id a. 'he had a c cuired some 1 5 c i 5 V ri ne s in F 1 or r c a . 16 Q. 17 A. How far north did you travel? d /i iJ A J> a e-5-r-i-f-orirra . I saw the as best os pits one time. 18 Q. You also stated earlier that you represented a 19 company from West Germany. how many companies cic you 20 re p r e s e n t from outside the United states? I cu es s -- Let 21 me rephrase the question. 22 How many c o mp an ie s aid you r e p r e s e n t V'hich 23 were located outside of the United States? 24 K e l l at the time we're s p e a k i n g of we a l r e a d y 25 discussed pegussa. 00 M A RK ET S T R E ET P H IL A D E L P H IA .P A 19106 A - 114 KfUPSi-COKSn A f M I B T DC D iO D TlM IT C C B V /lrC PHONE: 1215) S2S-53D0 3DWARD HABON 40 1 Q. That's right. 2 A. V>. h a d one ot he r c o m p a n y , w h i c h is not on here, 3 b e c a u s e we on ly so ld one p r o d u c t of th ei rs . T h a t ' s the A company called Sachtlaven. 0 0. I think you better spell that one. 6 n> , S- A- C- K- T- L- A-B-N . i 7 Q. And you serviced them? You were affiliated with 8 them in the 1950s? ! 9 A. I b e l i e v e we 'were. It's be e n a Icng r e l a t i o n s h i p . |I 10 10 we sell one product >o them. 1I Y h i c h is vrhc.t, sir? j i Qi ' It's called Blanc Fixe. i! 13 Q - .And w h e r e are th e y l o c a t e d by t: e v ay ? j 1 4 rT.* >\he r e v hat? 15 Q. T h e r e is S a c h t l a v e n l o c a t e d ? 16 r . T h e y v:ere in Co lo gn e. I think th ey m o v e d , but I 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Bffifisaafiw uaea it's -- I wo u l d n ' t be sure right now. But C o l o g n e , I have be en there. I have been to their operation, q. And what is Bl an c Fixe? A. It's a Barium Sulphate chemically and it's mace chemically from Barium one source and Sulphpric Acid the v V L 1? H a -T other to get your ba-s-i-s (sic). Strike them together a n d you get a -- u l t i m a t e l y you get a powder a n d you put it in bags. And in re ce nt use you put it in c o n t a i n e r s and y o u sh i p it to W a gn er in P h i l a d e l p h i a . A-115 400 m a r k e t s t r e e t p u n A n F L P H l A . P A 19106 K ftlP E -C O K S fi n t* n r n r v n T iM r * P C O W J PWONE 1215)926 5300 EDWARD RABON ! o ; Ii 1 MS. YOUNG: Do you understand the j 2 question? f; i 3 THE W I TN ES S: W e l l not cl early. No. 4 1 do n ' t r e a l l y u n d e r s t a n d it cl ea rl y. Th er e was a 5 lot of -- 6 MR. KA PLAN: What I'n t r yi ng to do, sir 7 -- let's go off the record for one second. 6 MS. YOUNG: Let's don't. Q MR. KAPLAN: Okay. We ll -- To r.ake it 10 easier, let's go off the record for a minute. 11 1 2 13 14 1 5 3 Y MR. KAPLAN: 16 q. Mr. Rabon, let me rephrase the question. Do yon 17 recall having any conversations, particular conversations 13 w i th a n y b o d y on behalf of ACL? 19 A. 20 q. 21 A. 22 q . Th at 's the same question isn't it? I tr i e d to r e p h r a s e it a bit. T h e answer is no. Do you recall when Charles Wagner first became 23 affiliated with ACL? 2 4 A, I d o n 't sp ec if ic al ly , but I've been w r e s t l i n g with 25 th at too. F r o m the reco rd I know that we had s a l e s in '57, A-116 400 M A R K E T S T R E E T P H IL A D E L P H IA , PA 19106 Km PEi-COKEfl iny iM r rT T Y w i^ r* PHONE. (2 1 5 ) 828-9300 BDKAE D HABON for example, and I know that we h 2 d r e l a t i o n s h i p s prior to that time. so as accurate as I can fell you, I would have 3 to d e s c r i b e it as the early 1 50s . 4 Q. Do you know how they came about? How your initial contacts with ACL cane about? 6 A. If came about. I th i n k 'with Hr. `W a g n e r and Mr. 7 ;t th at t Hr. Ka rcotte usee to come to the States and -- You want the whole stcry? 10 q . 11 A. If you reca ll it. c e r t a i n l y . I do r e ca ll it f a i r l y well. l'~i-si-e-r-s 'W h i t t a k e r , 12 C l a r k and D a n i e l s was a d i s t r i b u t o r in Lev,- Yo rk hunt lire 13 p r o d u c t li ne s c o m p a r a b l e to ours. Anc Hr. S a m Clar k, who 14 w a s the Ciar k o i the H h iota 1;e r , Ciar r. a n c !1 1-- 5< W a c n e r v.ere old frie ncs. The}' w e r e in t h 16 b r ac ke t. - was a yo ungster at the v i m e , 17 w a s the r e d r esen tati ve then ar. c m a y b e he w a s just a sa le s m a n at that time. l-ie usee to call on Hr. 19 S a m C l a r k in New York. On one of the days w h e n Hr. K a c n e r 20 and S a m Cl ar k were to g e t h e r , th e y t a l k e d p r o b a b l y p r o d u c t s 21 m d as bestos, and Hr. Sam Clark s a i d / y o u hand le it ano 22 t h a t ' s how it came about. Hr. K a r c o t t e was i n t r o d u c e d to 23 Hr. Wagner and I believe that was the start of the thing. 2 4 I d i d n 't p e r s o n a l l y -- i just do n' t kn ow a n y t h i n g f u r t h e r 25 on t h a t . A - 117 400 M A R K E T S T R E E T P H I L A D E L P H I A , P A 19106 K fflP E f-C O K E ft COURT REPORTING SERVICE PHONE. C l 5) 928 300 <7\ EDWARD RA30N 1 he A C L p r o d u c t s to Du P o n t at a n y t im e? 2 . Were we e x c l u s i v e ? I don't know that, v;hether they 3 ought from anybody else or not. 4 . 5. 5 Whether who bought? V,'nether Du Po n t b o u g h t f r o m a n y b o d y el se or not. But co you kn ew if ACL sold 7 . W o , I d o n 't k n o w . 8 . -- to any other su pp li er who in turn sold to Du o ont ? 10 ;o u 1 c r. 1 1 - ion't k n e w tha' c i 7 n P y MS. Y OU WG: Co ul c v;e co off the r e c o rd ? 13 Whereupon a discussion was nelc off the 1 4 racor q a U l--o - i c e . ) 15 16 MR . KAPLAW: 17 Let me rephrase the questions, Mr. Rabon. 18 Did you have an ex clusive t e r r i t o r y for 19 s u p p l i e s coining from.A CL? 20 . Chat was my u n d e r s t a n d i n g . We had -- To the be st o; 21 my knowledge, l can't find a written contract, but it's my 22 u n d e r s t a n d i n g that they were not selling their p r o d u c t s to .r?d l---_ oty'iD''--^i 23 /ji n the t e r r i t o r y that we serviced. 2 4 q,, And what was that territory? 25 ^ # W e l l w h a t has b e c o m e known, as the G r e a t e r D e l a w a r e A - 1.18 400 M A R K ET S T R E E T p u i t i n f l P R IA P A 19106 Km Pi-COKn * ir,T r,rm/'\rrri*.ir> pcDuipc PHONE: 2 1 5 ) 926-9200 EDWARD RABON 62 1 illey which extended to Delaware. Usually about hair way 2 5 New Yo r k , and it w e n t to N e w J e r s e y , w h i c h was New 3 cunswick, because out of New York, ACL out of New York 4 gent which wasy Clark and Daniels who sold half way down. 5 5 sold half way up. So with New Br unswick, New Jersey on 6 he N o r t h , and the S t a t e of P e n n s y l v a n i a on the YJest, ana 7 e l a v a r e and p o s s i b l y N o r t h e r n M a r y la nd . But I c a n 't be 8 ure of that. But Delaware anyway on the South, Chat's 9 h a t I d e s c r i b e as our te rr it or y. 10 . So wo u l d I be corr ec t in a s s u r i n g that 'within that 11 e o c r a p h i c a l area, any sales cf ACL products w o u l d have 1 2 een t h r o u g h -- to Du Pont would have been t h r o u g h your 13 ompany? 1 4 On L C L b a s i s it w o u l d ha ve b e e n b e c a u s e -- 15 ). On w h a t b a s i s ? I 'in sorry, sir. 16 i. Less than carload. Warehouse. Warehouse shipments. 17 ). Okay. 18 1. As far as I know. I mean you're asking me -- Are 19 !>ou a s k i n g me w h e t h e r ACL p r o t e c t e d us or not? 1 do n't 20 uuite u n d e r s t a n d what you're asking me. 21 2. No. I want to know what ramification -- Kell what I 22 w a n t e d to k n o w is what your r e l a t i o n s h i p was w i t h ACL 23 v i s - a - v i s Du Pont with in the g e o g r a p h i c a l area 'Which you 24 de fi ne d as being the exclusive supplier? 25 NS. YOUNG: Could I ask you to specify A - 119 400 M A R K E T S T R E E T Dull AHC! PM1& P A 19106 KfUPEf-COKEll PHON'E: 215) SI3-S300 EDWARD RA30N house account which I don't know about. 64 j I 2 Q. i Do you know of any knowledge of Du Pont receiving 3 env direct supplies from ACL? ; 4 ri, No, I do n o t . (V Q. Okay . Do you know whether Du Pont received any rype 6 of As bestos Fibers from any other supplier other than 7 Charles Wagner? 8 A. No, I do not know of them re c e i v i n g anything. 9 q . I 'm not t a l k i n g abou t simply thos e whic h came from 10 |ACL; but these which came from anyplace, T_ ]_ A. I d o n 't have any knowledge that they c ic buy 1 2 anything from anybody else. 13 Q. Y o u s t a t e d b e f o r e that some of your s u p p l i e p c- ^v Vta- u 1 4 you receive a iron ACL went to your wareharse? 1 5 A. All of our m a t e r i a l s sr ippec to Wa cn er came :o ccr 16 warehouse. vp 1 / 0. Anc that would i n d u c e the As be st os F i be rs w h i ch you 18 received from ACL? 19 A. 20 q. Yes . Okay. Would they always -- Did you keep a supply of 21 f i b e r s in your w a r e h o u s e ? 22 A. Yes. 23 q,, So you always had a steady supply there in case a 24 need came up? 25 A. Ri g h t exactly. T h a t 's the function of an y A-120 -------- KrtfPEf-COKEfi PHONE EDWARD RABON I them -- In this case t h ey wo ul d have this N where am i r e a d i n g ? T h e y di dn 't put it on that p a r t i c u l a r one. R s o m e t h i n g or other. W h a t e v e r the n u mb er was-. Q. What color was the printing? A, B l a c k I guess. I -- Do n ' t ask me w 'nat color it was. N65216, that was -- Th at's the same numoer that you'll fine on the invoices that Asbestos Corn, sent to us which are part of the record someplace. Q, Ro w then v;hen you s u p p l i e d Du Pont, you had che fibers trucked over to Du Pont. Would that be cor rear? A. Yes. We called the carrier. pu bl ic ca rr ier '..curd i ? ni ck t h e m uo anc cake them, awav and tare them o w n to Du 1 ? 14 !o . Row you've prev io us ly stated that one of t n e a s s e t s 1 15 w h i c h t he c o mp an y had was a se wi ng machine. w a s . V. ; u t 0 16 mend the b token bags? 17 e>\ Rot n e c e s s a r i l y - - Yes. It was to if for any r e as on 13 h n p t P hac to ae any re b a g g i n g cone, and we're tal king paper 19 b a g s , that wo ul d be to repair a torn bag or to -- If it v,'a s 20 n e c e s s a r y to rebag it into some bags that we had, w h ic b w e 21 b r o u g h t . And also most All manufactures sent spar e Dags ' S H if /a g /v 2 2 w i t h their e=accd5 . They put em pt y bags into the car. You 23 h a d the o p t i o n of sl id in g a torn b a g into an ov e r slip bag 2 4 th at we call them and then you have to sew it t o close it 25 so me way. You would just go across like that a n d sew it. A- 122 00 M A RK ET STR EET -vr-vr- QUIA P U lQinfi K ftlP E i-C O K E fl PHONE c) 525*5300 EDWARD RABON 7: 1 . L e t ' s ta k e it one s t e p at a time. W h e n ACL sent v; 2 h e s e bags of asbest os f i be r, w e r e they d e l i v e r e d to vcur 3 00 rstep? 4 . Ye s. E i th er -- I c a n ' t r e m e m b e r w i t h o u t l o o k i n g at 5 he r e c o r d s whether we st a r t e d using rail cars or whether 6 e took it by truck. I s u s p e c t we took it by truck to 7 mailer clients. 8 . W e r e th ey st or ed in any p a r t i c u l a r p l a c e in your a arehouse? 10 W e l l , yes, th ey had c t a i n - ~ It.' s u p t o t h e 11 arehousemen to use :he spec to the be st a d v a n t a g e a n d w e 1 2 1 O U 1 U j J u ---- 1 3 ). L e u me r e p h r a s e the c s t ic n . T ' s u r e t h e y k dl*--'1_ 1 4 ill the A s b e s t o s F i b e r s in one a r e a , D 'S.t t h e y d i d n ' t pick. 15 p a r t i c u l a r s e c t i o n of the w a r e hho u s e be; c's se of a n y -- y o u 16 I1ere u s i n g to other th an c o n v e n i e n c e to them. W o u l d that 17 )p c o r r e c t ? 13 k. That's right. 19 2. Ana 'was it your p e o p l e that w o u l d u n lo ad the t r u c k s 20 and t a k e it into the w a r e h o u s e ? 21 A. Yes. 22 q # Now youremployees that workedin that warehouse, 23 did they have respirators available for them? 24 A . Yes. 25 Qt Do yourecall what year the}'had them a v a i l a b l e for aOO M A R K E T S T R E E T P H I L A D E L P H I A . CA 19106 A - 123 KfUPSi-COKft COURT REPORTING SERVICE PHONE (2 1 5 )9 2 6 6300 1 Oi. 3 4 5 6 7 6 9 1 0 i_ j_ T 0 13 1 4 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 2 4 25 EDWARD RA3ON / o lem? , No, I can't, b e c a u s e it was q u i t e awhile. he an died, I told you, P e n n s y l v a n i a Sa nd S i l i c a for a long Lme and they were made available. . And for what reason were they made available? B e ca us e the -- our p r i n c i p l e su ggested rney be made variable and also we were conscious of the silicosis, the ontr over sy which was going o n . . So is that you w e r e c o n s c i o u s of the si li co si s, or b o u l d it be p n e u m o c o n i o s i s ? Any kind of il ln es s to the u n c s c a u s e d b'-' i n h a l a t i o n of dust? n e r a 1 1 y spesaakl i n e si nc e we -were n a n c h i n e c u : that 1 s w hat p L. . w? Us ^ V To ce rr ot ?c I Ncw whan 1 say the respirato r s were sumolrec ar les U a c n e r s u p p l i e d th e m for the w o r k e r s ? Ys } . And did that oc cu rr in the 1 95 0s? No , I'd say not. I have to figure ba ck wa rd s 1 say m o r p likely in the '60s, late '60s. 2. You state you ha ndled P e n n sy lv an ia Glass as one of your older cust om er s or suppliers. A. Suppliers. Q. T h e y went back in the 19 -- I think vou said b e f o r e you actually began there. A-124 00 M A R K S . S I riSET P H IL A D E L P H IA . PA 19106 KniPSS-coKsn CO UR T RFPORTING SERVICE PHOAE 121 5! SIS 92CO DWARD RABON I 1 A. Yes, 2 Q. In 1910. 3 A. fi Q. Uh-huh . And they were company that supplied you with the 5 silica fibers? 6 A. V?ell it's not c a l l e d s i l i c a f i b e r s , out it 's grcur.c 7 silica Q. It's ground silica. Okay. And they were supplied G in p a p e r ba gs also? 10 Yes . o 4 And you s t at ed that that wa s s t o r e d in yo ur r c~.r e h o u s e ? 13 Yes . 1lQ 15 i 16 Anc wh at is your k n o w l e d g e of s i l i c o S *c 7 MS. YOUNG: Do yo u mean at the p r es en t time? 17 1 MR. KAPLAN: Ok a v . L e t 1 s start -- 19 3 Y MR. KAPLAN: 20 Q. K n a t is vour p r e s e n t k n o w l e d g e of s i l i c o s i s ? vihat 21 is it? 22 A. YJe 11 a just o v e r a l l k n o w l e d g e is that if you i n h a l e 23 e n o u g h of it over a long p e r i o d of time, it w i l l e f fe ct 2 your lu n g s and crt pr o b 1 e m s . 25 Q . And when did you fi rs t b e c a m e awar e of t Tia t m a y b e a A - 125 100 M A R K E T S T R E E T P H IL A D E L P H IA . PA 19105 K ftlP S i-C O K E n COURT REPORTING SERVICE PHONE (12151 928-9300 EDWARD RASGW ii / o situation that could occur? A . There's r way I can an sw Q. Y o u d o n ' t kn ow if it vwas in the '60s or the '50s? A. I'd say i was m o re likel; the other question asked me about supplying masks and I know that they would have been supplied, but I can't r < tell you that, I just d o n 't know. These things don't 8 happen overnight. They happen over a period of t Q :Q. W o u l d I be c o r r e c t that you don't a c t u a l l y v-n 10 'hen the emolo'.' fere fi rs t ore viced with m a s ': 11 Charles Wagner? i 11 - -, 11 A . Wo, G c a n 't. I ca n ' t tell you u r.t " , * 2G^11 1 iW, 13 soe c i f ic a 1 1 v say bee ause I just d o n 't k now. 14 0. Get me as.-; y o u this. Did you ever ha.ve a n y e m p l o y e e 1 5 rile a W o r k m e n ' s Com p. c l a i m ag ainst C h a r le s W tener ? t1 0r A , Wo, we never did. 17 Q . Do e s Ch arles 'Wagner rave a s af >+*W CCPT11 tt re? 13 r. > Wo . 19 n Did it ever ha-ve a sa fe ty c o m m it te e? 20 , Wo 2 1 q, 1 k n o w you s t at ed at 'a prior d e p o s i t i o n t h e r e was no 22 company doctor. 23 * Th a tt ' s right. 24 Q. Has there ever been a company industrial hygienist? 25 > r- No. A - 126 OO M A R K E T S T R E E T - - cnnfc Kftim <O K 2n iMC ecm/irc PHOWS (2',51 S2 200 % EDV?ARD RABON 80 the warehouse? A. They were told they should wear them for their own pr ot ec ti on and -- but we had no rules. Q. Did their own protection regard pneumoconiosis? A. Their own p r o t e c t i o n f r om i n h a l i n g dust at anytime. From dust. See we aren't pack anything. Q. When did you first become aware, you personally now, that breathing any kind of dust could be hazardous? A. I c a n ' t a n s w e r that q u e s t i o n . I just d o n 't know. I k n o w th at I can 'walk down the s t r e e t s of P h i l a d e l p h i a and i n h a l e -- If I did it lone en ou gh , I 'm sure I w o u l d rave a problem. I just can't answer chat question. I just don't know. Q \kn o w ? is t n e : s n agn er Company that would A No 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 1 4 15 15 17 18 19- 20 21 22 23 24 25 - C J ar r i e r ever told us or not I know we ha ve had W o r k m a n ' s a m p e n s a t i o n for n a n v vears And w h a t e v e r 'was the c u s t o m E the carriers at that time to have it, but I can't call. Wh e r e did you -- Did you p e r s o n a l l y buy or pu rc h a s e ne r e s p i r a t o r s for your e m p l o y e e s at C h a r l e s W a g n e r ? No, I didn't personally buy them. . Do you know who did? No, I really don't. . Do you know who w o u l d be r e s p o n s i b l e -for p u r p o s e s or. I eh&lf of the Charles Wagner Company? v'ell ve're talking now -- I don't -- ! Q. ?his is, _'m sorry, in the 1250s and '60s? NS. YOUNG: You're ask ine for cure rases in c e n e r a i ? jn l\ : :ha t 1s right, o : eq uipment -- THE WITNESS: Well for p u rc ha si ng g e n e r a l eq ui pm en t, it woul d have been a y o u n g lady bv the name of Cl ar a Poliirtnic (sic) .who is long since dead. She was the secretary of the corporation at that time. BY K R . KAPLAN: Wh o would have authorized her to purchase e q u i p m e n t A - 128 i oo M A R K S T S T R E E T P H I L A D E L P H I A , PA 19106 Kmpsi-coKsn rniiT RPPORTiwr; k f r v i p f ph o n e 1215' 92S-930C EDWARD RA30W 32 1 or the c o m p a n y ? 2 . Well she was a secretary of the corporation. She 3 ad a u th or it y to use her judgment unless you're talking 4 bout a lift truck at fifteen thousand collars. There 5 ouId be seme discussion. But ba si c a l l y she -- 6 . So by s e c r e t a r y y o u ' r e not t a l k i n g rev; a r a 7 ictation secretary -- 8 . Ho, no. 9 . -- but a c o rp or at e secretary? .0 . Secretary of the corporation. Yes. . 1 Is she re l a t e d in a n y w a y to Mr. K a cn er ? L 2 L 3 Is she r e l a t e d no you in a n y w a y ? L 4 i. 5 . Ho . When cic she become the corporate s e c r e t a r y of tne 1 6 onpany? 17 . I ca n' t tell you w i t h o u t go i n g back in t h e re c o r d s IS i. Were the employees of Charles Kacner ever told why 19 ;hey should use uhe respirators? 20 To keep from breathing cost. 21 Q. And they were told that, weren't they? 22 Q. In fact, that was commonly known by the employees, 23 wasn't it? ?L A . Sure . 25 A - 129 00 M A R K ET S T R E E T P h i l a d e l p h i a .O A 19*06 KUP COKSd COURT REPORTING SERVICE ph o n e. t- 2 15) 92S-930D I w M *i-, -- ' ^ (.1 J> 1 KS. YOUNG: Objection L e a d i n g , 2 3 BY !!R . KIP LAN : 4 Q. Was it -- 5 MR. K A P L AN ; Vie 11 your o b j e c t i o n was 6 leading, This is a d e p o s i t i o n , h o we ve r. ? KS. YOUNG: I didn't tell him not 8 to answer. Q KR . KA? You car, a n sw er the 10 cuestin. 11 OHE VilTKESS; Vioulc you r e p a s t it, 12 olea: 13 KR. KA PL AN : Wh.v don't vou read back the 1 4 cues' ior !Oi;; 15 1 o (Whereupon uhe last question was read 17 aloud a follows: 18 *Q U E S T I O N : In fact, that w a s c o m m o n l y 19 known by the employees, wasn't it?") 20 21 THE WITNESS: I don't know what the 22 e m p l o y e e s h.r.ew really. 23 2 4 BY KB. . KA PLAN; 25 Q. But they were i n fo rm ed that b r ea th in g or inha ling A - 13 0 00 M ARKET STREET *>* ar\m Pm a PA ^5106 mmfcQKzn DCDnRTiMG SERVICE PHONE. 1215) 928-9300 t Vih R D R A D U N 1 dust m i g h t be da n g e r o u s to their health; is that correct? 2 A. Yes, I wo ul d say so. H o w e v e r , that d i d n 't -- Well 3 yes. 4 Q. Who advised them of that? 5 A. Who advised what? 6 Q. W h o a d v i s e d th e e m p l o y e e s th at i n h a l i n g ca st rr.ichr 7 be hazardous to their health? 8 A. 9 Q. I don't know. But you are sure that they were ad v sec tr.t -- 10 A. I am not personally -- 11 Q. T2 A . -- as you have previou sly stated? I am not personally sure of that. rnhev -- E.ue it Js 1 3 log i ca 1 if you s u p p l y a ma sk for s o m e b o d y 1 n the w a r e h o u s e , 14 in the ki n d of -- I me a n the p e o p l e that we had 'working, it was an ha z a r d to them. i la's o n l y no rm al th a u y O U L O L.1 G 16 say -- T h e y w o u l d say why co you w a n t me to w e a r that t h i n g 17 and you would tell them. And, of course, nine times out of 18 ten w h e n you turn ed yo ur back, it was a hot day, they 19 weren't wearing them. But I can't control that. 20 q. So all you can do is tell them? 21 A. 22 q. That's right. A n d if they don't, as long as they u n d e r s t a n d the 23 potent ia l risk that would be okay? 24 A. I 'm not sure t h e y u n d e r s t o o d the risk, b u t th ey -- 25 Q. But they were informed? A-131 400 M A R K E T S T R E E T P H IL A D E L P H IA . PA 19106 KftEPEf-COKEn COURT REPORTING SERVICE PHONE. (215; 92S-9300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 1 2 A. them Q. A . Sure. Zj u 'ii r * x \ u r . r* -- ' w c 0 We don't presume to advise anybody s u p p 1v 1 r 1 Who cid you sell that product to, the silica CO? i Paint. Q. > r* * Did you sell any to Du Pont? Yes, a lot of ir. Q. A . At the Seaforc plant? In o , At the Philadelphia Paint T Plant, e hac ono of the largest paint plants in the country. Q . Did y o u till th e V i i 1m i r . g c o n plant V i * f i 6 f j y O 2. 2 C the Philacelohia riant? V C. c 13 i t the billing for the deliveries to the Sesiorc plant? A . T r.& b i l l i n g a d d r e s s in - - 7 e 11 i t w o u 1c b e 1 D V.'i 1ir.i n g t o r.. I c a n 't tell you what the c e t a i 1s ere. 17 q, :t w o u l d f c t h e c o r p o r a t e h e a c c u a r e a r s ? 18 A. T h a t 's the way i t 's a 1'.rays been. 19 e q , When you sold your silica to the Du Pont p l a n t , t he 20 oaintisrsg pl an t, aid you a d v i s e th em of the haza rd s, 2 1 po t e n t i a l hazard s of si licosis? 22 A t I can't answer. But advising, whatever we a d v i s e d 23 our customers, was what our principals advised us. The 2 4 P e n n s y l v a n i a Glass Sand sent us, communicated and said 25 here's a certain test that was run. We did this, that and L 400 M A R K E T S T R E E T P H IL A D E L P H IA . PA 19106 A - 132 K m p s i-c o K s n COURT REPORTING SERVIC PHOME. !2 '.S ) 925*5300 EDWARD RABON D / 1 he other thing. W e r e c o m m e n d this. That w o u l d be sent to 2 or c u s t o m e r s . And as far as for the p r a c t i c a l ma tt er , Du 3 cnt could f o r g o t m o r e a b o u t s a f e t y and du s t m a s k s arrd r j - ivC'i A.-r nA e/knew/Charles Wagner Company. They had their cwn Safety 5 apartment and everything else. And they were years & n c d c , 6 ut to answer your quest ion , n o , unless we had cotte 7 r e m P e n n s y l v a n i a Sa nd and I con 't kn o w that . S . You con 11 k n o w if you rece ived a n y ki n d of no o rom Pennsylva nia Glass and Sand? ,,0 O v er a a r i n * v ear S, I m s i'r e h e m u s o ha ve ,p c s, u s 0 t h ? v t,,\o u 1c s e n d a co tr C' ~ W :v. 'k~w \11-v l i c a t i o n o n c e ) O .while. That kind of st uf f . 13 Do you recall receiving any particular notice cf the 14 >t e n t i a 1 h a z a r d s f r o m the ;a c e o 15 I don't recall recai vine noti :rrem d er ma t. ! 1 b :h e y - - The w a r n i n g 1 a b 1 e s are wh en the <^e cions, we r e put on T ut" 17 rags m a n y y e a r s b e fo re A s b e s t o s Corp. *3"ut on t h e i r ba g s 2 18 m o w that. 19 2. Well since you put up warnings, do you recall what 20 the w a r n i n g s stated on the silica bags? 21 I c o u l d n ' t give it to you ve rb a t i m , but e s s e n t i a l l y 22 a w a r n i n g inhaling, p r o l o n g e d inhaling dust and so forth 23 might be injurious to your health. Ke re commend wearing 24 protection, wearing masks, this kind of stuff. 25 q. Have you inquired of the Pe n n s y l v a n i a G l a s s and Sand A-133 00 M A R K ET ST R EET P H IL A D E L P H IA , PA 1S10 KM PEi-COKEfl r.nilRT RFPORTINC; RFRVtr.F PHONE(2151923-9300 JS S EDWARD RABON 3 1 Corporation as to why it vas potentially hazardous? 2 A. N o . I think most everybody by this tine knew that 3 there was a dust Droblem. Q. By t h i s time, w h a t t i me ar e y o u r e f e r r i D-N9 it-. 5 A. I don't know , Some time By the time they o o n , I don 't kn o w wh en th e y put it on. I wo u l d ha ve 7 P o s s i b l y I can get the ini or m a t r o n fr om Pe n n s y l v ani 8 and Sand, but I can't -- I don t have my own personal j O k n o w l e d g e w h e n they put it cn. I don' t know w h e n . j .o | i ytj KA PL AN : W i l l co un se l p r o v a t e us | 1 i2 1 | with that information? MS. YOUNG: Nr.at s p e c i f i c i n f o r m a t i o n is :3 | j >. j being requested? M ? . KAPLAN; j'p pn o j"}ptCV ^v a n i a Glass and 15 j Sanc Corporation put va m i n e s c n the bag. 16 ! ! 17 j CHE WITNESS : N hen t he y f ir st p u a v;a r n in c s or> their bags abou t not brea th in g t 'e dust. 18 19 'BY MR. K A P L A N ; 20 |q . Did Pennsylvania Glass and Sana Corporation actually 21 tell you that si li c o s i s was a c o n d i t i o n or d i s e a s e ? 2 2 A.. i d o n ' t know w h e t h e r they told us or net. 23 q, inhere did your k n o w l e d g e of silico si s c o m e from? 2 4 p, I c a n 't answer. I don't know the things -- kind of 2 5 t h i n g s t h 13y question. It p r o b a b l y came from r e a d i n g about A - 134 't7 TS F~T kmpEi-coKs PHONE u c c *>e>22QQ EDWARD RABON 89 it I g u e s s . Q. R e a d i n g about p n e u m o c o n i o s i s and what it ac tu al ly meant ? MS. Y O U N G : Vie 11 y o u used the w o r d pneumoconiosis He us ed uu n e v cre C n 1 ico sis. M R K A PL AN : 0 cay. BY MR. KAPLAN: Q , L e a r n i n g about dust in t ne ear t n can C U se or i pete ntialiy cause? i r. Yes. ! Q. Wh at ki nd of m a c a z i n e s o - jour na 1 s di c y ou re a d ? Do you r e ca ll the names of them? /c . YO UN G: y>*8 V c - hi. ! r e g a r d to sili ccsis bang > 7 y -> . K A P L A N ; MS . YOUNG; Uh-hum T i. o 4u- n a--t. yes ? c,b o u - v i c r. MR . K A P L A N : Yes, in any kind of disease condition t hat can be caused by inhala ing . TH E WITNESS: Well again ve' : e t a l k i n g paint. The paint journal is a w e ek ly th in g that co m^ s around and we s u b s c r i b e d to it for ma ny years . La te r ye ar s we r e c e i v e d C h e m i c a l Week. Vie r e c e i v e d a macazine called the Oil Paint and Drug Report. 400 M A R K E T S T R E E T P H IL A D E L P H IA . PA 19106 A - 13 5 kniPSi-coKsri r-miDT oconDTiMr: c c D v m c PHONE U ' SI 923-9300 S D v;a ?.D P.A3 0N 1 if MR. KA PL AN : 2 Can you be a l i t t l e t o r e s p e c i f i c in terras of the 3 ime frame that you received these magazines? , How many years we received them? 5 . Yes, Do you know how long? 6 , No, 7 . W e r e th es e tr ad e j o u r n a l s r e c e i v e d back in the -19 2 0s 8 nd '40s and '50s and t h e r e a f t e r , or are these m o r e of a 9 reation of the 1980s? 10 . No, they're more recently. But I wouldn't say 1950. 2 i efor e 1930, of course. 1 just con't know when. 1 2 , Nov; d;c the a r t i c l e s in th os e m a g a z i n e j o u r n a l s 13 ertain to silicosis? i_ 4 . No. 1 5 W ere the y perta: nine simply to potential bazar ecus 16 f inhaling the amb i"n t air? 17 T h e y were p er ta ining more to m a n u f a ct ur in g paint and 18 iow to co it, and more to s e l l i n g or mere to d e s c r i b i n g new 19 pr od uc ts for pa in t and so forth. Du ri ng the c o u r s e cf-- some 20 3f - - o n c e in a "while an a r t i c l e wo u l d come up w h i c h you 21 asked me the source of information. To the b e st of my 22 <now 1 e d g e , that's the type of places where I would have 23 c o t t e n it. The P h i l a d e l p h i a -- The newspaper f r o m time to 24 ti . 25 q. W o u l d your offi ce have r e c o rd s in terms of wh en they A-136 dQO market street KfflPEJ-COKSfl PHONE CUE) 92 100 I . Ves, E D W A R D R 7.3ON R ? (a f r i e n d of m i n e t o o ) I'd like to comment, 2 hat ourgvas a warehousing operation. All the produces we 3 et are packaged, and the ma n u f a c t u r e r s have bags there, 4 isposable which don't leak. And these packages are clean 5 hen t h e y c o n e in and t h e y ' r e put in a pile, s e g r e g a t e d a m 6 i 1 ed and t h e y ' r e ta ke n do wn most of the t in,e c r. c.a1 ' - t s o jV a- 7 nd not h a nd le tne bag at/the time. Take a for lift truck B n and pi ck up a wh o l e p a l l e t load. Ta ke away and put it Q a ck , You don't create too much cust. You keep the floor 10 lean. The dustiest part comes from the lift truck, a i 1 o w b o y r u n n i n g it down the aisle, s o m e t h i n g like that. Yu 1 2 a s i c a l i y it is a clean o p e r a t i c n . , . v. _ _ a _ _ i' i > bout manufacturinc outfits. 1 4 I understand that. 15 Okaw. how this was a sere of an s d 16 ) . Not w i t h s t a n d i n g t h a J- C -j -- I'm s o r r v . 17 Go a n e a o . IB ), not 'withstanding that fact though, you did require 19 zour e m p l oy ee s to wear the respirators? 20 \. 21 n. Yes. And for the p u r p o s e s of the silica, that was 2 2 p r o b a b l y some time in the '50s, 23 A. P u r p o s e s of the silica, well I I -- I don't want 2 4 to he dg e. I just don' t know. And I don't like to say 25 s o m e t h i n g and I don't know. I don't know when it was. Sue A - 138 00 M ARKET STREET P H ILA D E LP H IA , M 19106 KrtiPEf-COKrt COI 1RT REPORTING RFRVICP PHONE CIS) 918-9300 te. IJiUtUL^Ujnm EDWARD RABON received these various journals? A. No. You mean yo u' re talking about when tnev starred receiving it? Q. That's right. A. I wouldn't know. 6 MS. Y O U N G : Can we take a s n o r t bres;> ? 7 MR. KAPLAN: Sure. 8 9 ( W h e r e u p o n a sncru or ear. was ta r e n 10 th is t irr. 1 2 2 2 lY MR. Q. Mr. .-.ebon r let 7?0 iUSt T7, 1*o BUT e I u n d e r s t a n d this 1 4 Y o u k n e w in tre ' 0 s or '50s that you w e r e s e l l i n g a 1 5 p r o d u c t than rr, your b e l i e f t n a t rray h ave c a u s e d dust 16 whether it be silica or a n y t h i n g else; Is that c o r r e c t ? 17 h * A-l.1l1 the p r o d u c t s we sell were po wd er s m o s t l y und er 18 c e r t a i n ci r c u rus snces that ca us ed dust. 19 Q. Okay > 20 reason you cavE 2 1 W a g n e r Is that 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And that 2 4 there nay have been a potential hazard associated with 2 5 inhaling created by these oroaucts? ~~ A - 137 400 M A R K E T S T R E E T P H IL A D E L P H IA . PA 19106 t^TiWiCTiggg%3a8aEsai3BgsaaHa^ a BSBSBg!E B ^ ^ KfPE-COKErs ODI 1RT RPPORTIMf; RFRWlr.F ^ PHON'E f 215) S2E-9300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 1 2 1 3 ' 1 5 15 17 18 19 20 21 22 2 2 24 25 -r EDWARD RABON 93 that the general k n o w l e d g e of s i l i c a , po te nt ia l of s i l i c a se em to be in the i n c u s t r y b e f o r e the k n o w l e d g e of a s b e s t o s . T h a t 1 s fr om my p e r s o n a l D s er va ti on . Whether I'm correct or not, I d o n 't know, ng I ca n ' t say jest w h e n it was, but, yes, we did have it p s , we did warn them about dust. . Okay . So you ha ve the ba gs in your w a r e h o u s e ? Uh-huh . . Vihen you were ab o u t to sh i p it out to Du Por.t, arc or c h an ce any of the w r i t i n g on the bags? , ho, I cicn't change anything. he adead so:,etnrng. . lor accec? Yes. What cia you add in the bags? Vie 11 we wo ul d acc a Du Pont, Se af or e, D e l a w a r e , irder n u m b e r so and so, or r e q u i s i t i o n number so and sc, kot so anc so, And as time we nt on, it seemed l i k e th ey / h h 73 rent anc o r d e r e d more t h i n c s all the time,' T h a t r. r ; :ype of thing. 2. You had Charles Viagner's name on the bag also didn't you? A. ho. 2. Your name never a p p e a r e d on the bags at a l l ? A No, there was no reas on to. It was -- T h e bags, the m a n u f a c t u r e r ' s n a m e w a s o n t h e b a g s a n c t h e -cwrtnadrn-ees A-139 00 M A RKET ST R EET P H IL A D E L P H IA , PA 19106 KfUPEJ-COKSn COURT REPORTING SERVICE PHONE: (215) 92B-S300 course, our own invoice detailing everything, details all the order numbers. Again all that stuff, FG3 point, 3 D i s c o u n t s if any, e x a c t l y wh a t was sh ip p e d , the number of 4 bags, the w e i g h t of the bags, the w e i g h t of the entire 5 s h i p m e n t . A n d that th en was it un ti l it came time to send 6 the statement to them if they didn't pay the bill right 7 av;ay. If t h e y di dn 't p a y it in t h i r t y cays or w h a t e v e r it 8 was . It can't -- That so m e w h a t iocs my memory. Can't I 1 9 th in k of wh at else we did 'with the 'whole thing. 1 10 Q. Mow did you ever k n e w the p u r p o s e for v;h ich i r.c 11 A sb e s tos Fibe rs that you were s u p p l y i n g Du Pont were to be 1 2 used? 13 > Mo. i 1 4 Q. And you stated earlier that you did sell asbestos toj 1 _L0 ,v a r i o u s of the co mp an ie s, and -would I be correo t- c r.c.~ c c y j 16 were used for roofing coatings? 17 A . Some of them. 18 Q. And asbestos that you also sold was used for I 19 flooring compound; Is that correct? ( ! 20 A . That's correct. fl 1 C 4 3 r K ; n/ Cr- 2 1 Q. And jos-r-k-i-tta c o m o o u n a ? 22 A. Yes . 23 Q. Ana - - 24 A . Some went into the floor tile. There's 25 appi icat ions for it. A .14 0 400 M A R K ET S T R E E T PH ILA D ELPH IA , PA 19106 Kmra-coKsn COURT REPORTING SERVICE PHONE. *2151 S2S-530Q Q . Okay. asbestos? When did you first gain knowledge of ^ rst knowledge of asbestos? MS. YOUNG: You mean existence? MR. KAPLAN: Let me change the cuesa i o n . 3 Y HR. KAPLAN: Q. The poss ible h a n a r q s of a sbestos? A . I do n ' t kn o w , I can 't te 11 you. I g u e s s may -:aA s t a r t e d hitt ine t h e h EEC lines wi t h J o h n - M a n v i 1 1 e Q. Y o u con 1t re call a c "h c time? ! r . . . Bee y ou r par con? i Q. Y o u con 't r e c a l l at this time? I don't recall when. No. i KR , KAPLAN': Let's have t h e s e race: : ! carkec, Can you mark these few exhibits? j (Whereupon R abon Exhibits 4 t c 6 were I n a r k e d for i d e n t i f i c a t i o n at this time.) BY MR. KAPLAN: q. Mr. Habon, I'm showing you what's been m a r k e d as E x h i b i t s 4, 5 and 6, Can you first i d e n t i f y f o r me wh a t E x h i b i t 4 is? A. it's a copy of a letter written by our c o m p a n y over 400 m a r k e t s t r e e t P H I L A D E L P H I A , PA 19106 A-141 Km pss-cdKsn COURT REPORTING SERVICE FHONE. (ZIE) S28-9300 E D W A R D RABON' 133 1 . To the be st of ray knov; ledge, no, but they were sent 2 3 the Seaford plant, anc they may have had a gave number 3 : b u i l d i n g nu mb er or s o m e t h i n g . But b e y o n d that I'd sav 3 5 . Can y o u r e ca ll the p e r s o n ' s na me at the b o t t o m o: c >:h i b i t ? - 5 or R a b n 5 ? 7 MS. Y O U N G : Can he recall-it? 8 9 Y MR. KAPLAN; .0 Can v o u rea: in d of cifficul tcC Li ou r s raavbe a little m o r e - *i * r.U . i 13 MS. YOUNG ist a minute. t mav 14 ,e a t e r c o d v , name is G. T. Ru ss el l. 15 1 6 I'i MR. KA PL AN : 17 3. Did you p e r s o n a l l y know Mr. R u s s e l l ? - 18 1. No. 19 2, Did you have any d e c l i n e s with Mr. R u s s e l l prior to 20 receiving the letterofJanuary 29th, 1969? 21 A. No. 22 ), in fact, iraraediate1y to the left of the ca te Ja n u a r y 23 ?9th, 1969 t h e r e 's a date stamped on the letter. That cate 2 4 Ls J a n u a r y 3 1 s t , 1 9 6 9 . 25 r. T h a t 's whenwe got it in ouroffice. A - 14 2 00 M A R K E T S T R E E T P H IL A D E L P H IA P A 39106 KftlPE-COHEH f'fTIIDT QCOAnrin^ ot-r-... PHONE: 215) S2S S300 (s ED K A R O P.f.djH 1 So it was r e c e i v e d by y o u r o f f i c e on J a n u a r y 31st. 2 > you actually recall receiving this particular letter? 3 , No. I h o n e s t l y d o n ' t r e c a l l it, but I ha v e seen it Touch since. I thought about it. So I do not recall 5 sceiving the letter. No. 6 . Do you r e c a l l r e c e i v i n g an y l e t t e r s s i m i l a r to t r.is 7 y any employee of Du Pont? 8 , I ca n' t te l l w h e t h e r -- I ca n' t a n s w e r W'n e th er its \ Q recess Hazards Committee. We sold fairly a substantial 10 umber of different products to the Du Pont Company ever a 11 er rod of years, p a r t i c u l a r l y P h i l a d e l p h i a . And they ha ve 1 2 cv c 1 9?. w p6 1'5 b v t r ^ v v " o src^cifications. 13 Okay. Let me rephrase the question. 14 D c vc u 6v 6 r receive r rom Du Pont & n v letter 15 similar to this i n q u i r i n g about a m i n e r a l or s u o s t a n c e 1 5 ;bic'n vou s u p p l i e d Du Po nt with, that is any m i n e r a l or 17 substance? 18 i.. I n q u i r i n g as to the s a f e t y of it, no. 19 -) t Had you ever received any letter from any of the 20 c o m p a n i e s that you s u p p l i e d in a letter or i n q u i r y 21 p e r t a i n i n g to the safety of using the ma terial that you 22 supplied? 23 A. Any materials you're speaking of? 24 Q . Yes. 25 MS. YOUNG: Had he received such a A - 143 400 M A R K E T S T R E E T P H Il A D ELPH 1 A . p a 19106 KfilPSS-COKSn pai idt DCDncTiMa QPR\/ir; PHONE. (215) 92ES300 a-DWARD R Ab ON L U 0 I l e t t e r tor io r to t h i s ? 2 KR . vA p L p N . Prior to January 29th, 3 1 9 69 . 4 THE WITNESS: We're not -- We're 5 s p e a k i n g of any c o m p a n y ? 6 NR. KAPLAN: Yes . 7 THE WI TN E S S : To the best of my 8 knowledge, no. 9 1 0 y 2 Q. 1 2 p A? LA 11: So' no compa ~,v ever in q u i red as to the s a f e t y ci th e m i n e r a l or t r.e pr ccuc t wh i c h you v;ere s u pp ly 13 i t w i t n ?? n / 1-S , 1 Oo .\c ! Pr io r to 1969? 15 MR . K.AP LAN : T h a t ' s right. 16 THi W I T N E S S : In a form such as this, 17 no . 18 19 BY MR. KA PL AN : 20 n. what other forms would they be in? 21 A. During the course of business we worked from data 22 sheets. A customer normally knows what he's buvinc. He 23 n o r m a l l y kn ow s wh at he 's go i n g to do with it', R e w a n t s to 24 know the chemical competition and all that stuff. At that 25 po i n t if t h e r e ' s any p r o b l e m , w a wo u l d have -- that's w h e n A - 144 400 M A R K E T S T R E E T P H IL A D E L P H IA ,P A 19106 K C U P "C O K E D i C O U R T R E P O R T !M G S E R V IC E PHONE ( 2151 928-9300 T 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Q :c 11 1 2 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 2 4 25 m EDWARD RABON lat w o u l d come up. 3ut in -- As I ha ve t e s t i f i e d before, - this point and time our product lines were basically o n m e t a l i c m i n e r a l s . T h e y w e r e all, as I d e s c r i b e d ma ny Lmes, cug out of the ground, b e n e f i c i a t e d , put in bags, id t h a t ' s the w a y you sell it. T h e y ' r e in er t m a t e r i a l s . 1 r e n o n t o >;i c in the s e n s e th at you put your h a n d in th e and it w o n 't hurt you. You can rub it on yo j r s k in and can eat it i f you wa n t to and it w o n ' t hu r t you, but I o u l d n ' t r e c o m m e n d it. . 0 k a v . You have a 1 r e a c v s t a i e c at th is d e w c r i t i c r. hat y o u Kn ew there was a p o t e n t i a l h a z a r d f r o m si li ca, ar.d ec a u s e of that potential hazard, you issued ana required our em pl oyees to wear respirators? Yes. 1. Now did any companies, to whom you supplied silica, .nauire as to the s a f e t y of the p r o d u c t th at y o u 'were ;u p p l y 1 n g th em wi th ? . ; can't answer that. I just don't know. They may have. You just don't recall? A. I don't know. 2. v;ho w o u l d know? A . At this late date no one would know. I couldn't even r e se ar ch c o r r e s p o n d e n c e , be cause it w o u l d n ' t be there. I just co u l d n ' t . I just can't he l p you on t h a t . This is self explanatory. A - 145 400 M A R K E T S T R E E T PUH A f lF t P H lA PA 19106 KftIPEi-COKSn r*r\\ I D T D C D n O T I M H C P m / i r C PHONE (215! 92E-9300 !;.-.?.D RABON Vpc i 1 1 2 Q. And you have no reason not to believe t h aa n ra v a s ! 3 re ad by you in J a n u a r y of 1970, do yo u ? 4 A. N o , I have no reason . 5 Q. Now who is Hr. Le cl e r c ? 6 A. He was R e gi o n a l Sales Ma nager it says right t h e n 7 o. 8 y Did you He was c >w Mr, L e c l e r c ? of the - - I thirJ; he ei th er s u c c e e d e d 9 t *=1 or -- No, 10 n o t . I real!'.' 11 Q . m Y\*'s 16 12 Cor po r a t i o n Lira on the s c a t i c n e r v o : ;estc: 13 ny , V p s 1 < Q. Anc the r i i 1 5 ile tt e r c o n i n g f )~ A C : n in voci ni n e trai 16 A . No , none .was a 17 Q. Anc you 18 a l t h o u g h you ha 19 A . Oh, yes 20 Q. Did you 21 A. I just 22 t r r r itory 1 po 23 tell you. 24 Q. Okay. 25 the letter sta A - 14 6 400 M A R K E T S T R E E T P H IL A D E L P H IA ,P A 19106 K(1lPE-COKEf f'm im - n r r t A n r m o c PH O N E: 215! 928 9300 EDWARD RABON 112 shipments of asbestos. Is that true? 3 Q. Ok ay . A.fter you got w h a t ' s be en m a r k e d as Rabo n 4 6 -- 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. -- cid you ever call Mr. L e c l e r c up? Or 2 should 7 say y o u d i d n 't call Mr. L e c l e r c , did you? 8 A. 9 10 ]_ 1 No . letter? MS , \--r *7. 1rO* .. Y ou m e a n 'with r e g a r d to t h is y A P L A K : With regard to this 12 leaner. 13 TE S WITNESS *os 1 1 4 15 5Y MR K A P L A N : 15 Q. And you never sent M r . Leclerc a letter questioning 17 h i m as to the laoel itse 1 f , c id you? 18 iit . 'No. I had no o c c a s i o n t o . 19 q . And you never wrote Du Pont informing t h e m that now 20 the bags would contain a label, did you. 21 a. No. That would be self evident that I didn't write 22 them. 23 q. And you didn't call anybody at Du Pont that the bags 24 he re and after wo u l d co nt ai n a label or a c a u t i o n a r y label, 25 did vo u ? A - 147 00 M A RK ET STREET P H I L A D E L P H I A , PA 19106 Kmpsi-coKsn f*r\IIDT DCDRDTIMC CDDl/irC PHONE: 1215) 923 9300 EDUARD E Ab UN 1 A. I didn't call anybody. I'll tell you the normal 2 p r o c e d u r e in our c o m p a n y has be en t r a d i t i o n a l l y on ail notices, just like Mr. Le clerc says, we are advising your c u s t o m e r s wh en e v e r the i n v o i c e s are done by us. f o r m a l l y we c o p y this on a c o py m a c h i n e and send it to e a c h ac co u n t . 6 That s the normal procedure. t 7 Q. Does Is there any i n d i c a t i o n on the fa ce of 1 8 v;h a t s be e n m a r k e d as R a b o n 6 that it v;as f o r w a r d e d tc DU 1 ) Q Pont by you? i1 io !A . Wo , ther? isn't, J il Q. Or an yb od y else on your b e h a l f or C h a r l e s Wacr.er `S i 1 2 b eh a li? ! 13 A. No, th er e i s n 't. 14 - Q . A n c you have received no corr es po nd en ce fr om Du Pont 1 5 indi e a t i n g that they r ece rve c t h is from, you -- 16 A. Ko , 17 Q. -- cic you? Ana so to the best of your 18 !r p co 1 1 ect i on, you c a n 't say that you f o r w a r d e d this to DU ! 19 Pent can 1 ou ? 20 MS. Y O U N G ; Objection. 21 TRE WITNESS: I can tell you what our 22 procedures have been, and I have been running the 23 c o m p a n y for many many years, and I can tell you that 24 the i n st ru ct io ns that our peop le h a v e 'a r e c a rr ie d 25 out. We get price change notices from Asbestos A-148 00 M A R K ET ST R EET P H IL A D E L P H IA , PA 19106 KftlPEf-COHEfl rnilQT DCPnOTIMfi CPRVIPP PWOK'E (2151922-2300 satBEwas E D W A R D R A 5 0 11 m Corp. Our customers are notified. There's nothing 2 in my file to say that they were. ; knew chat uhev 3 were. We get notices on freight changes, tariff 4 changes, a lot of things. They co out. The copving 5 goes out to the customer. We con't try to hide 6 anything from our customers. 7 Y MR. K A P L A N : Q 10 11 Look, ing at the s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h of the l e t c e r where arts, "T hi s p r a c t i c e is b e i n g i n i t i a t e d r,ow, " 12 Q. Did you ever call a n y b o d y at Du MU Cbi i < 13 hat some of the bags they mi g h t be re ce iv in g w o u l d not be 1 4 the esurionarv label? 15 rt . No . 16 Q . And so vou ra c e no a t t e m p t to c o n t ac t Du Po nt upoi 17 r p r q r v i n ' his letter? 18 NS. YOU N G : Objection. Th a t ' s not what 19 he testified to. You can answer the question,: 20 THE W I T N E S S : I testified that our 21 p r a c t i c e in all case s like this has a l w a y s be e n and 22 c o n t i n u e s to be c o p y i n g the a n n o u n c e m e n t and s e n d i n g 23 it to the customer. And the cu st omer -- And I'm 24 c e r t a i n we did that in this case. A.nc t h e cu st o m e r 25 can re ad as we ll a e I can, that he wo u l d know the A - 14 9 dOQ M A R K E T S T R E E T M U t n c l P H IA PA 15105 KmPES-coKsn EDWARD RABON 115 ; 1 present inventories that he night receive some 2 rate rials that was not -- would net have this 3 cautionary label on them. 4 5 Y KR. KAPLAN; 6 . You sa id it was c u s t o m a r y , How m a n y s i t u a t i o n s o 7 his nature have arisen? 8 . I don't know whet you mean by this nature, Q . Where you ware informed by a supplier that they 10 o u i d be a t t a c h i n g or p l a c i n g a 1 a b e 1 , c a u t i o n a r y labe 11 he product? 1 2 . very few. 13 i . And that you informed therefore the ultimate user? Very few. And when I referred to the customer 15 ractice, I didn't mean just the letter that was typed. As 16 explained before, I mean any kind of letter involving the 17 customer. As I said, freight prices, d i sc on ti nu an ce of 18 races. Any general business subject was handled that way. IS And I have ev.-ery r e as on to b e l i e v e that this w a s h a n d l e d 20 chis w ay 21 2. Looking at the top left hand corner of the page, who 22 is W.O.? 23 A. 24 q. 25 A. Bill Ow en s who is a salesman. An <3 w h o 1 s C . K ,? Claire Key who was my personal secretary for awhile, 400 M A R K ET S T R E E T P H IL A D E L P H IA , PA 19106 A- 150 KDIPSS " C O K E D ------- ------------- ------ - J PHONE. I-21SI 922-9300 EDWARD RABON 1 and I 'm not su r e w h e t h e r sh e' s st i l l l i v i n g or not. 2 Q. W h o was is ? . N t/ the i n i t i a l s under C. K .7 3 A. I can go on w i t h the ot h e r ones. W. S. is Wa rd 4 S t a c k h o u s e w h o is I t h i n k s t i l l a l i v e in F 1 or i d a . K. R, 5 N a t a l i e K e s s l e r who is a b o o k k e e p e r . Wa y n e R a b o n is my 6 s o n . And going back to -- O h , that's F . N ., Frank N e l s o n . 7 T h a t 's who that i s . Frank Nelson was one of those who Ori h a n d l e d o r d e r s . H *5 is s t i l l w i t h us. n_nH a~Aui r s. "r . Vi<! . I 'm O sure. io 0. | T h i s let ter o i J a n u a r y 13 th in clea t e s th at -- Mr . "il !l e c l e r c s t a t e s that he w i l l be a d v i s i n g the c u s t o m e r s 1 2 w h e n e v e r the i n v o i c e s is cone bv ACL. 13 A. Right. 14 Q. A.CL d i d n ' t do i n v o i c i n g for Du Po nt cid th e y ? 15 i T h a t ' s ri c n t . T h e y cid not. 16 17 (Whereupon Rabon Exhibit 7 was marked 18 for i d e n t i f i c a t i o n at this time.) 19 20 BY MR. KAPLAN: 21 q. T h i s is m a r k e d E x h i b i t R a b o n 7, Have y o u ever seen 22 this document before (Indicating.)? 23 A. If I did, it w o u l d have to do with some o f these 24 recent suits, but I don't think I did. 25 q. D o you know who R. V. La ub er is, L - A - U - B -- E-R? A -151 400 M A R K E T STREET p u m i A H F t PH tA PA 19106 BBSS KfliPS-COHn PHONE. !m 5 ) 026-9300