Document Dd0eNQabrMBdvR8JL6rwgXrb5

Montana Tenth Judicial District Court Fergus County Page 342 Marty Paulson, et al.. Plaintiffs, vs. Case No. DV-04-55 Monsanto Chemical Company, n/k/a Pharmacia, et al. Defendants. Video Taped Deposition of William Papageorge Vol. Ill Taken on Behalf of Defendant Pharmacia May 17, 2007 GORE & PERRY REPORTING CO. 515 Olive, Suite 700 St. Louis, Missouri 63101 f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001285 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 343 1 Montana Tenth Judicial District Court 2 Fergus County 3 4 Marty Paulson, et al., 5 6 Plaintiffs, 7 8 Case No. DV-04-55 9 10 Monsanto Chemical Company, 11 n/k/a Pharmacia, et al., 12 13 Defendants. 14 15 16 Video Taped Deposition of William 17 Papageorge, Vol. Ill, taken on behalf of the Defendant 18 Pharmacia, at the offices of Husch & Eppenberger, 190 19 Carondelet Plaza, Clayton, Missouri, on May 17, 2007, 20 before Faith A. Olliges, Missouri C.C.R. No. 807, 21 Illinois C.C.R. No. 084-003344, RDR, CRR, and Notary 22 Public. 23 24 25 www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOQ1286 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: 2 3 For the Plaintiffs: 4 5 Mr. Torger S. Oaas 6 P.O. Box 76 7 Lewistown, Montana 59457 Page 344 9 For Defendant Columbia Paint and Coatings 10 Company (via telephone): 11 12 Mr. Stephen R. Brown 13 Ms. Katie Mahe 14 Garlington, Lohn & Robinson, PLLP 15 P.O. Box 7909 16 Missoula, Montana 59807-7909 17 18 For Defendant Monsanto Department of Fish, 19 Wildlife and Parks (via telephone): 20 21 Mr. Maxon Davis 22 Davis, Hatley, Haffeman & Tighe, P.C. 23 P.O. Box 2103 24 Great Falls, Montana 59403-2103 25 www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOQ1287 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 345 1 For Defendant Pharmacia Corporation and 2 Monsanto Chemical Company: 3 4 Ms. Carol A. Rutter 5 Mr. Adam E. Miller (pages 183 6 through 192) 7 Husch & Eppenberger, LLC 8 190 Carondelet Plaza 9 Clayton, Missouri 63105 10 11 Ms. Catherine A. Laughner 12 Browning, Kaleczyc, Berry & 13 Hoven, P.C. 14 139 North Last Chance Gulch 15 Helena, Montana 59601 16 17 Also present: 18 19 Ms. Amanda Russo 20 Husch & Eppenberger 21 22 Videographer: 23 24 Mr. Curt Shaw 25 Gore & Perry Reporting Company www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOQ1288 PAULSON v. MONSANTO 1 INDEX 2 3 Examination by Ms . Rutter 4 Examination by Mr. Oaas 5 Examination by Ms . Rutter 6 Examination by Mr. Oaas 7 Examination by Ms . Rutter 8 9 DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT INDEX 10 11 Exhibit A 12 Exhibit B 13 Exhibit C 14 Exhibit D 15 16 PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT INDEX 17 Exhibit 70 18 Exhibit 71 19 Exhibit 72 20 Exhibit 73 21 Exhibit 74 22 Exhibit 75 23 24 25 WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 346 PAGE 348 467 551 559 561 362 396 453 405 467 467 467 467 467 467 www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001289 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 347 1 MR. SHAW: We are on the record at 9:35 2 a.m. Today's date is May 17th, 2007. We're at the 3 offices of Husch & Eppenberger. The address is 190 4 Carondelet Plaza, St. Louis, Missouri. 5 I'm Curt Shaw, Legal Videographer, along 6 with Faith Olliges, Certified Court Reporter, here 7 today for the deposition of William Papageorge, 8 actually to continue the deposition of William 9 Papageorge, to be taken in the cause of Marty Paulson, 10 et al versus Monsanto Chemical Company, et al, 11 currently pending in the Montana Tenth Judicial 12 District Court, Fergus County, Cause No. DV-04-55. At 13 this time, would counsel please identify themselves 14 and whom they represent? 15 MR. OAAS: This is Torger Oaas 16 representing the plaintiffs. 17 MS. LAUGHNER: Cathy Laughner representing 18 Pharmacia. 19 MS. RUTTER: Carol Rutter representing 20 Pharmacia and Monsanto, and also my legal assistant, 21 Amanda Russo, is in the room with us. Telephone 22 participants. 23 MR. DAVIS: Max Davis for the Montana 24 Department of Fish, Wildlife, and Parks. 25 MR. BROWN: This is Steve Brown for www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001290 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 348 1 Columbia Paint. I also have with me Katie Mahe, who's 2 an attorney with us. 3 MR. SHAW: Very good. Would the court 4 reporter please administer the oath to the witness? 5 (Reporter swore in witness.) 6 7 William Papageorge, 8 of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to testify 9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth 10 in the case aforesaid, deposes and says in reply to 11 oral interrogatories propounded as follows, to-wit: 12 EXAMINATION 13 QUESTIONS BY MS. RUTTER: 14 Q. Good morning, Mr. Papageorge. How are you 15 today? 16 A. Good morning. Fine. Thank you. 17 Q. Now, in your prior deposition in this case, 18 the Plaintiffs' counsel spent some time discussing 19 with you your background and experience with PCBs, so 20 I'll just touch briefly on those areas here. 21 Were you born in 1922, sir? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. So that makes you about 84 today? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And you grew up and went to school here in www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOQ1291 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 349 1 St. Louis? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Did you serve in the military? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Could you tell us briefly about that service? 6 A. Well, the service, as best I remember, 7 extended from late 1942 until the latter part of 1946. 8 Q. And what level did you enter at, and what 9 level did you depart at? 10 A. I entered as a -- officially as a corporal as 11 a result of enrollment in the ROTC, and I terminated 12 service as a captain. 13 Q. And was that an honorable discharge? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And, Mr. Papageorge, do you have a B.S. in 16 chemical engineering from Washington University? 17 A. I do. 18 Q. And that was awarded in about 1943? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And you have a Master' s of chemical 21 engineering also from Washington University here in 22 St. Louis? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And that was awarded in about 1947? 25 A. Yes. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001292 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 350 1 Q. And you were first employed by Monsanto in 2 approximately late 1951. Does that sound correct? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. If you need to jog your memory on any of 5 those dates, I do have a copy of your CV. 6 Could you please briefly describe the 7 different Monsanto facilities that you worked at and 8 the approximate dates that you worked at them? 9 A. I worked at the Monsanto plant in St. Louis 10 referred to as the J. F. Queeny Plant, which was 11 located on Second Street in the St. Louis area. I 12 then served at the plant in Sauget, Illinois, referred 13 to as the William Krummrich Plant of Monsanto. I was 14 then assigned to the Monsanto plant in Anniston, 15 Alabama. I was then reassigned to Monsanto in the 16 St. Louis area, the general offices of Monsanto, from 17 which I retired eventually. 18 Q. And were you Plant Manager at Anniston from 19 approximately 1965 until the end of 1969? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And then youworked at Monsanto headquarters 22 in St. Louis from approximately January 1970 until 23 your retirement? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And youretired atthe end of1986? www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001293 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 351 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Do you recall, Mr. Papageorge, Plaintiffs' 3 counsel asking you questions about Monsanto acquiring 4 Swann Chemical Company in the 1930s? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. What was the year that Monsanto acquired 7 Swann? 8 A. 1929. No. I... 9 MS. RUTTER: Could you -- Miss Russo, 10 would you please get for Mr. Oaas the copy of the 11 notebook with the exhibits that have been premarked as 12 one through 41? 13 A. May I correct my answer? 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. I believe I correct it. 1929 was the year 16 the Swann Chemical Company was formed. Monsanto 17 acquired it in 1935. 18 Q. We'll save the exhibit binders for a moment. 19 Had Monsanto ever manufactured PCBs before it acquired 20 Swann in 1935? 21 A. No. 22 Q. What, if any, PCB manufacturing plants did 23 Monsanto acquire from Swann, and where were they 24 located? 25 A. The only plant acquired from Swann that www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001294 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 352 1 manufactured PCBs was the plant located in Anniston, 2 Alabama. 3 Q. Now, was the Krummrich Plant that's located 4 in Sauget, Illinois, acquired from Swann? 5 A. No. 6 Q. At some time after the Swann acquisition, did 7 Monsanto start manufacturing PCBs at Krummrich? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Do you remember approximately when that 10 occurred? 11 A. No, I do not. 12 Q. We'll pull out an exhibit later on in the 13 deposition that will probably refresh your 14 recollection on that date. 15 Who were Monsanto's biggest customers for 16 PCBs after Monsanto acquired Swann in 1935? 17 A. Thebiggest customers, as best I recall, 18 involved the electric equipment manufacturing 19 companies. 20 Q. And who were the biggest of those companies? 21 A. At that time, it was General Electric and 2 2 Westinghouse. 23 Q. And what, if any, were the primary uses of 24 PCBs made by the electrical industry, such as General 25 Electric and Westinghouse, after Monsanto acquired www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOQ1295 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 353 1 Swann in 1935? 2 A. Primary uses were as insulating and cooling 3 fluids, excuse me, in transformers and capacitors. 4 Q. What is a dielectric fluid? 5 A. Primarily it's a -- a liquid thatdoes not 6 conduct electricity. 7 Q. And so when you spoke of insulating and 8 cooling fluids, were PCBs used as a dielectric fluid 9 in transformers and capacitors? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Why were PCBs used as dielectricfluids in 12 transformers and capacitors? 13 A. Well, in addition to its ability not to 14 transfer electricity through the fluid, they were used 15 in those types of equipment because they were not 16 flammable or explosive, which provided for some safety 17 protection. 18 Q. Were there any rules or codes or regulations 19 concerning what type of dielectric fluids had to be 20 used in transfermers (sic.) -- transformers located in 21 buildings such as high rises in cities or hospitals or 22 stadiums, places of that nature? 23 A. Yes. There were generally rules that 24 specified under what conditions transformers and 25 capacitors could be used and where they were located www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOQ1296 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 354 1 and how the effects of a fire could be minimized in 2 the event one should have happened. 3 Q. And what brand names did General Electric and 4 Westinghouse use in relation to PCB-containing 5 dielectric fluids? 6 A. Brand names? 7 Q. Yes. What did GE call the dielectric fluid 8 that it used in -- 9 A. Oh! 10 Q. -- GE transformers, for example? 11 A. General Electric used the trademark Pyranol. 12 Westinghouse used the trademark Inerteen. 13 Q. And what is an askarel? 14 A. Askarel is the same as these two I just 15 described, but it's the word -- it's the generic kind 16 of expression that describes fluids in that type of 17 service , electrical service, that are fire-resistant. 18 explosion-resistant, and nonconducting. 19 Q. Were there manufacturers of PCBs other than 20 Monsanto anywhere in the world? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And could you name some of those to the 23 extent you can remember them as you sit here today? 24 Either the country or the name of the manufacturer. 25 whichever is easier. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001297 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 355 1 A. I can remember the countries pretty well. 2 Germany , for example, Italy, France, the Netherlands 3 were -- and Japan that manufactured these kinds of 4 fluids. 5 Q. So it sounds as if there were a number of PCB 6 manufacturers in Europe and then in Japan as well? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Now, was Monsanto the sole supplier of PCBs 9 to U.S. PCB customers? 10 A. To the best of our knowledge. 11 Q. Were there any imports of PCBs into the 12 United States? 13 A. I was made aware of PCBs manufactured in 14 Germany were used in mining equipment designed by a 15 German company, and when that equipment was delivered 16 to the United States, it contained the PCBs made in 17 Germany 18 To my knowledge, that is the only source 19 of PCBs other than Monsanto's in the United States. 20 Q. In addition to use in transformers and 21 capacitors, what other uses for PCBs developed over 22 the years? 23 A. Well, they were used as plasticizers, and by 24 that term I mean as an ingredient applied to other 25 materials to make the material more flexible instead www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001298 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 356 1 of being brittle. 2 They were also used as an ingredient in a 3 mixture that eventually ends up as a paint, and the 4 most popular one was the type of paint used to paint 5 traffic lines on highways, the yellow line, the white 6 lines. 7 They were also used as an ingredient in 8 mixtures of fluids that were used to operate 9 equipment, hydraulic fluids. 10 At the moment, I can't think of any other 11 general category. 12 Q. What was a Therminol? 13 A. Oh, Therminol is Monsanto's trade name for 14 heat transfer -- heat transferring fluids. 15 Q. And can you give an example of what type of 16 use historically there was for a PCB-containing 17 Therminol fluid? 18 A. These fluids were used in systems in which 19 the fluid itself was heated in a safe location, 20 transferred to another location where its heat would 21 be used to accomplish some benefit. For example, it 22 would be used to heat the cooking oil in which food 23 was prepared. That's typical kind of use. It's a 24 case of where the heating of the heat transfer fluid 25 can safely be done in one location and the heat www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOQ1299 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 357 1 transferred to another instead of the possibility of 2 fires and explosions. 3 Q. And the Therminol itself is inside some type 4 of closed system typically? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Or was, I should say -- 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. -- historically. What is Turbinol, 9 Mr. Papageorge? 10 A. Turbinol is another fluid. It's used to 11 operate very much like hydraulic fluid, to operate 12 machinery, turbines, and so on. 13 Q. Such as turbines in gas compression stations 14 where there was a great danger of fire and explosion? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Mr. Papageorge, let's switch gears a bit. 17 Under what circumstances were you transferred in late 18 1969 from being Plant Manager in Anniston, Alabama, to 19 Monsanto's corporate headquarters as Director of 20 Environmental Operations? 21 A. In the late '60s, there were observations 22 made in which material that was analyzed was 23 determined to be the material Monsanto used in these 24 fluids we just talked about, and the expression 25 introduced at that time was PCBs, which was intended www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI300 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 358 1 to describe the expression "polychlorinated 2 biphenyls". 3 By late '69, the methods used in 4 laboratories to analyze for these PCBs had evolved to 5 the point where the data that wasgenerated by the 6 highly sophisticated equipment was becoming more 7 reliable and much more descriptive of what the type of 8 PCB was being discovered. 9 Q. What were your job duties in the 10 newly-created position of Manager of Environmental 11 Control beginning in January 1970? 12 A. My job description really involved my 13 awareness of, as much as I could be, about the uses of 14 PCBs, the presence of PCBs found in the environment, 15 the efforts made to reduce that entry into the 16 environment, and, in an essence, I was trying to let 17 the left hand know what the right hand was doing. I 18 don't know how else to describe it. 19 It's -- I was the eyes and ears of upper 20 management. If I saw something that was 21 objectionable, I would try to solve the situation at 22 the lowest level within the company where I could. If 23 the response to my comments were ignored, I would take 24 it up the company ladder, so to speak, to the top 25 management, if necessary. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI301 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 359 1 But I didn't find too many of those areas 2 within Monsanto. I found some of those negative 3 responses to my suggestions amongst the general public 4 and the purchasers of PCBs from Monsanto, and I would 5 then, of course, approach the top leadership within 6 the purchaser's company in an attempt to get quick 7 action. 8 Q. Who were Drs. or Professors Jensen and 9 Widmark, Mr. Papageorge? 10 A. Dr. Widmark and Dr. Jensen were Swedish 11 chemists located in Stockholm. I think it was the 12 University of Utrecht, U-T-R-E-C-H-T. 13 Q. And how do they fit into the discovery of 14 what was reported to be biphenols or biphenyls in the 15 environment in Europe? 16 A. They had an active program in determining the 17 presence of DDT, DDE in the environment to establish 18 what effects their presence might have. In the 19 analysis to determine the presence of the DDTs, DDE, 20 they kept seeing information that did not fit what 21 they expected to see. 22 Eventually, Dr. Jensen determined, in his 23 opinion, that what he was seeing was a polychlorinated 24 phenol, spelled P-H-E-N-O-L. That information 25 eventually was made known to many chemical producers. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI302 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 360 1 including Monsanto's European operations. But when 2 they understood that it was a phenol, not a phenyl, 3 P-H-E-N-Y-L, they decided that it must be a different 4 set of chemicals. 5 Q. What type of analytical equipment were 6 Drs. Jensen and Widmark using when they first 7 identified in the environment a substance that is 8 described in some reports as polychlorinated 9 biphenols, O-L-S, and in others with a Y-L-S? 10 A. Well, I'm not an expert on this analytical 11 equipment, but it was my definite understanding that 12 what was used was a much more sophisticated piece of 13 equipment designed and produced in Germany that Jensen 14 and Widmark had access to. It's only after Monsanto 15 decided to make further studies of defining what that 16 material was that Monsanto placed an order from the 17 German producer of that equipment to deliver to the 18 United States Monsanto laboratories. 19 Q. Was this in your understanding a ready-made 20 item that you could just call up and order it one day 21 and have it shipped out the next? 22 A. No. My understanding was much more complex 23 than that. As best I understood it, the basic parts 24 of the equipment were delivered by the manufacturer in 25 Germany, but it took considerable effort on the part www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI303 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 361 1 of the purchaser of that equipment to assemble it and 2 get the right pieces to fit in the right places so 3 that the assembled unit performed what it was intended 4 to perform, and that took more time than any of us 5 expected. 6 Q. Who is David Wood? 7 A. David Wood is a Monsanto employee. As best I 8 remember, he was a Monsanto Company in London 9 employee. 10 Q. After this initial report from Drs. Jensen 11 and Widmark in Stockholm, did anyone from Monsanto 12 visit with Dr. Jensen or Widmark? 13 A. Yes. I don't recall the original -- There 14 was a group out of Monsanto Chemical London that went 15 to Stockholm and visited. In 1970, I was present with 16 a group, including Monsanto representatives from the 17 United States, that joined individuals out of Monsanto 18 London to visit with Widmark and Jensen. 19 MS. RUTTER: Ms. Russo, could you please 20 get the prelabeled exhibit binder that's Exhibits 1 21 through 41? 22 Miss Olliges, could you please mark that 23 as Exhibit Notebook A, which, for the record, contains 24 premarked Exhibits M-l through M-41, with the M in 25 front of them to distinguish them from plaintiff's www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI304 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 362 1 exhibits that were used in the previous days of this 2 deposition. And we need a copy for Mr. Oaas, please. 3 This is for Plaintiffs' counsel. 4 (Reporter marked Defendant's Exhibit 5 Notebook A for identification.) 6 Q. Mr. Papageorge, could you please take a 7 minute to look at that notebook? 8 To speed things up a bit here today, did 9 you at my request before this deposition review the 10 documents that were in the notebook that's been marked 11 as Exhibit A, Notebook Exhibit A to your deposition 12 and includes Exhibits M-l through 41? 13 A. It appears very similar to the volume that I 14 looked through. 15 Q. And can you tell us generally whether all of 16 these documents in this notebook are documents that 17 you saw in early 1970 after you first started your job 18 as Manager of Environmental Control at Monsanto's 19 headquarters in St. Louis? We can go through a few of 20 the documents and I can reask the question at that 21 time if that would be simpler. 22 A. Well, yes. When you said is this all of the 23 documents I saw, I saw so many documents, I just can't 2 4 vividly recall each and every specific one. But these 25 are very typical of the kinds of documents that I saw www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI305 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 363 1 at that time. 2 Q. Right. And I certainly wasn't meaning to 3 suggest that this was all of the documents that you 4 saw. These are just representative documents from the 5 time period 1966 through late 1969, and with that 6 preface, we'll start going through them a bit. 7 Could you please turn to the tab that's 8 labeled 8, M-8? And could you please identify this 9 memo for the record? Just who it's from, who it's to, 10 and the date of the document. 11 MR. OAAS: If I could just interrupt for a 12 minute. I'll just be brief. I just want to state for 13 the record, given the way that you're approaching 14 this, I'm going to reserve my objections to all of 15 these exhibits because, although I may have seen some 16 of these in prior discovery, I haven't seen them in 17 this order, and I'm not prepared to state my 18 objections until I would have the opportunity to go 19 through each exhibit, so... That's it. 20 BY MS. RUTTER: 21 Q. So the pending question, Mr. Papageorge, is 22 could you please just state who Exhibit M-8 is from, 23 who it's to, and the date of the memo? 24 A. The exhibit is a two-page document authored 25 and sent out by Gene Wilde, W-I-L-D-E, addressed to www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI306 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 364 1 R. Emmet Kelly, M.D., dated February 13, 1967. 2 Q. And who was R. Emmet Kelly, M.D.? 3 A. He was Monsanto's corporate physician. 4 Q. Was he -- Did he at some early time in the 5 company' s history become Medical Director for the 6 company? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And you personally knew Dr. Kelly quite well? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And who was Gene Wilde? 11 A. I don't recall his specific title. I don't 12 remember 13 Q. When it refers to "general offices" there on 14 the memo , does that mean it's from St. Louis? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. If you could please refer to the middle part 17 of the exhibit where it says "Dave Wood," could you 18 please read that paragraph into the record? 19 A. "Dave Wood of our Brussels office sent us the 20 LK" -- looks like a B, "press release of January 10, 21 1967, about the Swedish success in detecting the 22 polychlorinated biphenyl." 23 Q. And then could you read the next sentence. 24 please? 25 A. "A memo written by Dave Wood dated January www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI307 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 365 1 26th summarizing his visit with Jensen." 2 Q. So what does this document tell you about the 3 timing of Monsanto's first visit to meet with 4 Dr. Jensen in Sweden? 5 MR. OAAS: I just want to object to the 6 form of that question and indicate for the record that 7 the memo referred to at least has not been identified 8 as an exhibit in particular in this notebook, nor 9 provided to Plaintiffs' counsel through prior 10 discovery requests. 11 MS. RUTTER: For the record, a huge 12 production was made to Plaintiffs' counsel at the 13 Smith Moore law firm in Greensboro, North Carolina, of 14 a huge variety of documents and other information. 15 This bears Bates labels MONS. I certainly agree with 16 counsel that we can't hash out here on the record 17 whether you have a contention that any particular 18 document was not included in that production or in the 19 numerous subseguent productions that Monsanto has 20 made, and so your -- I suggest we deal with that on a 21 case-by-case basis. 22 MR. OAAS: Well, if you have this memo 23 written by Dave Wood, I'd sure appreciate you 24 producing it. 25 MS. RUTTER: I'm sure it was produced at www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI308 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 366 1 Smith Moore many, many months ago as part of the 2 master collection that you requested. 3 MR. OAAS: It's not in this notebook. 4 MS. RUTTER: Mr. Oaas, this is -- If we 5 had all of the documents in this room, it would fill 6 up many, many boxes, and we are on a limited time 7 period. You are free to select whatever documents you 8 choose from the master production we gave you with 9 which you choose to question this witness. I know 10 that a very large and thorough production was made. 11 MR. OAAS: I just wanted to know. Is it 12 in the notebook? 13 MS. RUTTER: It's not in the notebook. 14 MR. OAAS: Thank you. 15 BY MS. RUTTER: 16 Q. Mr. Papageorge, can you please tell us when 17 Dave Wood first visited Dr. Jensen in relation to 18 Dr. Jensen's reported findings of biphenols or 19 biphenyls in the Swedish environment? 20 A. It happened, as best I recall, in late 1966. 21 Q. And this memo. Exhibit M-8, dated February 22 13th, 1967, refers to a meeting between David Wood and 23 Dr. Jensen; is that correct? 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. Could you please look at the exhibit that's www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI309 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 367 1 been marked M-4, Mr. Papageorge? And could you just 2 briefly, please, for the record identify who it's to. 3 who it's from, and the date of the document? 4 A. The memo was authored and sent by David Wood. 5 It's addressed to George Buchanan located in 6 St. Louis. Mr. Wood is -- at that time was in 7 Brussels , Belgium. 8 Q. And what's the date of the document, please? 9 A. The date is December 1st, 1966. 10 Q. Could you please read the first line of the 11 letter, excuse me, of Exhibit M-4? 12 A. "I attach a copy of a letter received from 13 Ola Palm in Stockholm." 14 Q. And if you would please turn the page, 15 Mr. Papageorge, to the next exhibit in the book. Can 16 you please identify the author of this document, the 17 to, the from, and the date? 18 A. This document is a letter with the heading 19 "Rising & Strand" authored and mailed by -- It's 20 initialed "Ola," and it's mailed to "Dear David". 21 Q. And it says for the attention of Mr. D. 22 Wood -23 A. Oh, yes. 24 Q. -- right above that? 25 A. You are -- That is correct. It is addressed www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI310 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 368 1 to Mr. David Wood. 2 Q. And the date is November 28th, 1966? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. Right. Now, does the first paragraph of that 5 letter refer to polychlorinated biphenols with an 6 O-L-S? 7 A. It does. 8 Q. Does the second paragraph of that -- or does 9 the next-to-last paragraph of that letter also refer 10 to biphenols, O-L-S? 11 A. The next to last? 12 Q. Oh, I'm sorry. On the first page. 13 A. It does. 14 Q. And for the record, this Exhibit M-5 was also 15 marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 51 during the prior 16 deposition. 17 Mr. Papageorge, if you would turn back. 18 please , to Mr. Wood's cover memo, Exhibit M-4, can you 19 please read into the record the postscript that 20 Mr. Wood has written on his communication to Monsanto 21 in the United States? 22 A. "Thinking of the total quantities of Aroclor 23 used in Sweden compared with the much larger volume of 24 Pentachlorophenol and Sodium Pentachlorophenate for 25 water treatment in the paper industry and sapstain www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI311 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 369 1 control in the timber industry. Is it likely that the 2 chlorinated phenols show similar chromatographic 3 traces to the chlorinated bi-phenols?" 4 Q. Mr. Papageorge, did Monsanto ever manufacture 5 DT -- DDT? 6 A. Not to my knowledge. 7 Q. So Monsanto wasn't researching DDT? 8 A. That is correct. 9 Q. That's what Jensen and Widmark were 10 researching when they found these unknown peaks? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Could you please turn to Exhibit M-7 and 13 identify that document for the record by author and 14 date? 15 A. The author is Gunnar Widmark, the date 16 December 29, 1966. 17 Q. And who is it to? 18 A. It's addressed to a Mr. Ford at Monsanto in 19 St. Louis. 20 Q. And could you please turn to the attachment 21 to that letter, which, for the record, is dated 22 September 1966, Institute of Analytical Chemistry, 23 University of Stockholm. Mr. Papageorge, can you read 24 the handwritten note about the instrumentation that 25 they said they were using that appears on this www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001312 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 370 1 otherwise typed document? 2 MR. OAAS: I'm going to object to the form 3 of the question. I don't know who "they" are. 4 A. The handwritten addition reads as follows. 5 "Mass spectral" -- I'm sorry. "Mass spectrometer 6 LKD-9000." 7 Q. Could you please turn to the next page? 8 MR. OAAS: What exhibit are we referring 9 to? 10 MS. RUTTER: We're referring to the 11 attachment to Exhibit M-7. You have it in front of 12 you. 13 MR. OAAS: I don't have any handwritten 14 notations. 15 MS. RUTTER: Here. Let me show you. Next 16 page. Right there. 17 MR. OAAS: Thank you. 18 MS. RUTTER: Sure. 19 BY MS. RUTTER: 20 Q. Mr. Papageorge, do you see the page that says 21 "Pesticide Analysis"? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And this is a document that bears the name 24 Soren Jensen and Gunnar Widmark? 25 A. Yes. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI313 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 371 1 Q. Could you please look in the first paragraph 2 and read the type of machine that they say 3 that they -- the type of analytical equipment they say 4 they were using? 5 A. "An analysis of samples from the Swedish 6 wild-life fauna by means of gas chromatography, using 7 both electron capture detector and micro coulometric 8 detector, a large number of unknown but chlorine 9 containing compounds have been detected together with 10 the ordinary pesticides. Masspectra of some of these 11 compounds obtained at a combined gas chromatograph 12 mass spectrometer (LKB-9000) indicate that most of the 13 unknown compounds are polychlorinated biphenyls, 14 potentiated somewhat in nature towards those of higher 15 degree of chlorination." 16 Q. And then could you read, please, just the 17 last sentence of the next paragraph, the one that 18 starts out "200 samples"? 19 A. "200 samples of soil and water did not 20 contain detectable amounts of chlorinated biphenyls 21 nor did 20 samples of terrestrial mammals." 22 Q. Do you know, Mr. Papageorge, was a combined 23 gas chromatograph with a mass spectrometer new 24 technology in 1966? 25 A. If I understand your -- Was that new www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001314 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 372 1 technology? 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. That's my understanding, yes. 4 Q. Did Monsanto eventually obtain a copy of 5 Soren Jensen's paper in the English language 6 that he -- it wasn't published, but that he provided 7 concerning his findings? 8 A. Eventually, yes. 9 Q. Can you please turn to tab M-ll, and can you 10 identify that cover memo, please? Just by author, who 11 from, who to, and the date. 12 A. Authored by D. Wood,addressed to 13 Dr. R. Emmet Kelly, dated February 22, 1967. 14 Q. And can you please read the next-to-last 15 paragraph of that memo, the one that starts "I am 16 sending"? 17 A. "I am sending the only copy of Mr. Jensen's 18 paper to you and, therefore, if any of the other 19 recipients of this letter needs to have access, they 2 0 can take a copy from yourself." 21 Q. And then if you turn back to the affiliated 22 document that's marked M-ll.2, can you please tell us 23 whether this appears to be a copy of Mr. Jensen's 24 original remarks? 25 A. I'm sorry. Would you define that again? www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI315 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 373 1 Q. Sure. It bears -2 A. Oh! 3 Q. -- Exhibit M-11.2. 4 A. And what was your question regarding this? 5 Q. Does Exhibit M-11.2 appear to be a copy of 6 Mr. Jensen's original remarks? On the topic of the 7 unidentified -8 A. Yes. 9 Q. -- peak? 10 A. Yes. It -- It appears it's a copy. 11 Q. Could you please turn to Exhibit M-32? 12 A. 32? 13 Q. Yes. And who is that memo from, and who is 14 it to. please? 15 A. The memo is from W. R. Richard addressed to 16 file. dated March 7, 1969. 17 Q. And who was W. R. Richard? 18 A. Dr. Richard was the head of the research 19 group associated with the Functional Products 20 Department of Monsanto Company. 21 Q. And there are a number of CCs on this memo; 22 are there not? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. I won't go over them all due to time 25 constraints, but who is E. Tucker? www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001316 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 374 1 A. Mr. Tucker was a member of Monsanto's U.S. 2 Research Department. 3 Q. Was he an analytical chemist? 4 A. He was an analytical -- in the Analytical 5 Chemistry Department. 6 Q. And did he go by Scott? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Who was R. Keller? 9 A. R. -- Dr. Keller is Mr. Tucker's immediate 10 supervisor, his boss. 11 Q- And is "R. Kelly" R. Emmet Kelly, Monsanto's 12 Medical Director? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And who is E. Wheeler? 15 A. E. Wheeler was a member of Dr. Kelly's staff. 16 Q. His first name was Elmer? 17 A. Elmer. 18 MR. SHAW: Five minutes of video tape 19 remain. 20 Q. All right. Mr. Papageorge, could you please 21 read the first -- very first sentence of the document 22 into the record? 23 A. "We have been cooperating with Aroclor 24 samples to the following investigators." 25 Q. And then could you please read all of the www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI317 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 375 1 individuals and institutions with whom Monsanto was 2 cooperating according to this memo? 3 A. Your question -- 4 Q. Right. If you'd -- 5 A. Referred to individuals. This document shows 6 a department or a -- 7 Q. Let's just use the left-hand column and the 8 date. 9 A. Oh, okay. 10 Q. Right. 11 A. Jensen and Widmark and Tatton are listed; the 12 Department of Interior, Fish and Wildlife Service; 13 Bureau of Sport Fisheries, Denver, Colorado; Wisconsin 14 Alumni Research Foundation of Madison, Wisconsin. 15 Q. Is that known as WARF, W-A-R-F -- 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. -- for short? 18 A. The Natural Agricultural Chemicals 19 Association in Washington, D.C.; the State University 20 of New York College of Medicine, Syracuse, New York; 21 Cornell University, Division of Bioscience - Ecology; 22 FDA, Washington, D.C.; U.S.D.A., Agriculture Research 23 Service, Pesticides Regulation Division; Regional 24 Primate Research, Madison, Wisconsin; the U.S. Bureau 25 of Commercial Fisheries, Ann Arbor, Michigan; the Rome www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI318 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 376 1 Pollution Laboratory in Rome, New York; Wildlife 2 Research, Department of Interior, Washington, D.C.; 3 Patuxent of U.S.D.I.; University of Wisconsin Lab - 4 Labs; Denver Labs, Fish and Wildlife Division; 5 University of California, Riverside; Industrial 6 Bio-Test Labs; Medical College of South Carolina. 7 MS. RUTTER: That's probably a good place 8 to stop and change our video tape. 9 MR. SHAW: This will end tape number one 10 of the continued deposition of William Papageorge. We 11 are off the record at eleven -- excuse me -- 10:34 12 a.m. 13 (Whereupon, there was a brief recess.) 14 MR. SHAW: We are back on the record at 15 10:40 a.m. This will begin tape number two in the 16 continued deposition of William Papageorge. 17 BY MS. RUTTER: 18 Q. Mr. Papageorge, could you please turn to 19 Exhibit M-16? And could you identify this document 20 for the record, please? 21 A. This is a copy defined as an Outbound 22 Shipping Report addressed to Cincinnati - FG -- I 23 think that's Settum. 24 Q. Sutton, perhaps. 25 A. Anniston. The date is March 27, 1967, and www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI319 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 377 1 the material shipped went to Federal Water Pollution 2 Control Administration, Department of Interior, 1014 3 Broadway, Cincinnati, Ohio. 4 Q. And what were the materials shipped to the 5 Federal Water Pollution Control Administration in 6 Cincinnati by Monsanto's Anniston plant in March of 7 1967? 8 A. The samples are defined as Aroclor 5460 and 9 Aroclor 1260. 10 Q. Now, is Aroclor 1260 a PCB? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. What does the word "Aroclor" mean? Or -- 13 A. It's Monsanto's trademark that was used to 14 describe chemicals made from benzene or benzene 15 derivatives, and that's where the expression "aro" 16 comes from. It's aromatics. And the C-L-O-R is 17 derived from the presence of chlorine in these 18 particular chemicals. 19 Q. Were all Aroclors PCBs? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Do you recall as you sit here today what 22 Aroclor 5460 was? 23 A. That product is really a chlorinated 24 terphenyl. 25 Q. Which is different from a chlorinated www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI320 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 378 1 biphenyl? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. All right. Could you please turn to Exhibit 4 M-10? That's tab 10 in your notebook, Mr. Papageorge. 5 And could you please identify this memo for the record 6 by the author, who it's from, who it's to. and the 7 date? 8 A. It's from D.V.N. Hardy, H-A-R-D-Y . It's 9 addressed to Dr. R. Emmet Kelly in St. Louis, dated 10 21st February 1967. 11 Q. And who was D.V.N. Hardy? 12 A. I don't know his exact job title. He was 13 from the London office. So a Monsanto -- 14 Q. So he was a Monsanto -- a Monsanto employee 15 in London? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. All right. And in this memo, Mr. Hardy or 18 Dr. Hardy, whatever the case may be, appears to be 19 transmitting information requested by Dr. Kelly, 20 Monsanto's Medical Director? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And he includes a couple of articles by a 23 Mr. Tatton, apparently from the Laboratory of the 24 Government Chemist in London? 25 A. Yes. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI321 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 379 1 Q. And Dr. Tatton appears to be researching 2 pesticides such as DDT? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Could you please read into the record the 5 very last paragraph where it says "I have also been in 6 touch"? 7 A. "I have also been in touch with 8 Mr. Richardson of Shell to whom I supplied the samples 9 of pure Aroclor components, and he reports that the 10 characteristics of the unknown material in the 11 organochlorine residues are quite different from those 12 of any of the chlorinated biphenyls I submitted to 13 him. He also said he's carrying out metabolic 14 experiments on fowls, and that the chlorinated 15 biphenyls appears substantially unchanged in the egg. 16 I told him that Jensen had been asking for pure 17 samples of Aroclor constituents, and we came to the 18 conclusion that Jensen must therefore have jumped the 19 gun in blaming chlorinated biphenyls. Richardson is 20 going to see Jensen around March 2nd, and they will 21 discuss the position and Richardson's latest results. 22 The situation will be reported to me on Richardson's 23 return and I will pass it on directly to you." 2 4 Q. So it appears, Mr. Papageorge, that after the 25 Jensen report in late '66, early '67, Monsanto started www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI322 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 380 1 communicating with DDT researchers other than 2 Mr. Jensen in Europe to cooperate and coordinate 3 findings? 4 A. Yes. 5 MR. OAAS: Object to the form of the 6 question as leading. 7 Q. Could you please turn to Exhibit M-7, 8 Mr. Papageorge. That's a document you've already 9 identified for the record, the Gunnar Widmark letter 10 to Monsanto dated December 29th, 1966. Could you 11 please read the next-to-last paragraph into the 12 record? 13 A. "At present we have no knowledge of the 14 biological significance of the presence of these 15 compounds in living organisms. We have started a 16 collaboration with the Department of Toxicology at the 17 Carolin Institute but we should very much appreciate 18 to work with your toxicologists over this problem." 19 Q. Could you now please turn to Exhibit M-21, 20 Mr. Papageorge? 21 A. I'm sorry. 10? 22 Q. 21. 23 A. Oh, 21. 24 Q. And could you please state the date of the 25 document and the title and the authors who appear on www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI323 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 381 1 the second page? The date of the document. 2 A. The date, July '68. 3 Q. And it's called "Project"? 4 A. "Project: Electrical Fluids - Part VI - Air 5 and Water Pollution Control." 6 Q. And according to the next page of the 7 document at the bottom, who are the authors of this 8 document? 9 A. E. Wheeler/Scott Tucker, P. Benignus/R. H. 10 Munch. 11 Q. And Wheeler is with the medical department, 12 and Scott Tucker is an analytical chemist? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. And who were Mr. Benignus and Mr. Munch? 15 A. Mr. Benignus was in the marketing department 16 in charge of materials containing the Aroclors. 17 R. H. Munch is a research individual who was involved 18 with evaluating different chemicals for use as 19 functional fluids. 20 Q. And going back to the first page of the 21 document, could you please read the four objectives 22 stated into the record? Objective one. 23 A. "Objective one." Following -- "Follow 24 developments in analytical chemistry leading to more 25 sensitive and specific methods for identifying www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI324 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 382 1 Aroclors in our environment. 2 Number two. Keep in touch with 3 laboratories doing research on environmental 4 contamination by Aroclors including Universities, FDA, 5 U.S.D.A. , Fish and Wildlife Service. 6 Number three. Study present methods for 7 disposal of Aroclors and if necessary develop safer 8 ones. 9 Number four. Assess possible toxic 10 effects on humans." 11 Q. Could you please turn to Exhibit M-20? It's 12 the exhibit just before 21 in the binder. And I'm 13 going to ask you to look at the last page of this 14 document first, Mr. Papageorge. Who are the document 15 authors? 16 A. M. W. Dietrich, E. M. Emery, L. Fowler, R. E. 17 Keller. 18 Q. And Dr. Keller you knew personally? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Did you know any of these other individuals? 21 A. I -- I think I recall Mr. Fowler, Dr. Fowler, 22 F-O-W-L-E-R. 23 Q. Was he in Dr. Keller's Analytical Chemistry 24 Department? 25 A. Yes. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI325 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 383 1 Q. The paragraph right above their names has a 2 date. What is that date, please? It refers to a 3 speech by a Mr. J. D. Hinchen. 4 A. The date is January 10, 1968. 5 Q. Could you now turn, please, to the page 6 that's numbered eight at the bottom of Exhibit M-20? 7 A. I have it. 8 Q. And do you see where it says "Technical 9 Competence"? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Can you please read the paragraph that starts 12 Atlas-MAT, M-A-T, into the record? 13 A. "Atlas-MAT (Varian) CH-4B Mass Spectrometer: 14 Testing of the new medium resolution Atlas CH-4B Mass 15 Spectrometer is continuing. Emphasis is being placed 16 on the gas chromatography rapid scan mass 17 spectrometry(GC/MS) capability of the instrument. 18 Packed columns are presently being used. A new 19 single-stage Biemann helium separator has been ordered 20 to extend our capabilities to capillary column GC." 21 Q. Does this document suggest to you, 22 Mr. Papageorge, that by approximately January 1968 23 Monsanto had acquired a combined mass spec gas 24 chromatography machine and was attempting to make it 2 5 work? www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI326 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 384 1 MR. OAAS: Object to the form of the 2 question. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Could you please turn to Exhibit M-3, 5 Mr. Papageorge? 6 A. Three? 7 Q. Three. What's the title of that document? 8 A. The title? "What's new about the CH-4B?" 9 Q. And the manufacturer of this new CH-4B is who 10 according to this document? 11 A. Krupp, K-R-U-P-P. 12 Q. Has an address in Bremen, B-R-E-M-A-N -- 13 M-E-N? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. You understand that to be in Germany? 16 A. That's what I believe it is. 17 Q. And the date on the lower right-hand side of 18 this document is what? 19 A. 1958 and 1966. 20 Q. Suggesting that this document was created not 21 before 1966? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. Could you please turn to the second page of 24 the document? And read into the record the result 25 under the "Result". www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI327 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 385 1 A. Oh! "Result. The new Atlas Mass 2 Spectrometer, CH4B, capable of even greater 3 achievements deals with all analysis problems in 4 organic chemistry - the outcome of 15 years of 5 experience." 6 Q. And then over in the next column, under 7 "Sensitivity," it refers to "for analysis of gas 8 chromatographically separated fractions"? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. So it's your understanding this is an 11 advertisement for some of the newly-available 12 technology combining what's known by analytical 13 chemists as a mass spec GC? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Please turn to the last exhibit in this 16 notebook, Mr. Papageorge, Exhibit M-41. And would you 17 please identify that document for the record? 18 A. This is a copy of minutes of meeting of the 19 Corporate Development Committee of November 17, 1969. 20 Q. Now, who was the Corporate Development 21 Committee comprised of? The names appear on the 22 document, but can you give us a feel for the level of 23 these individuals within Monsanto Company at the time? 24 A. These individuals are entitled as vice 25 presidents within the Monsanto corporate or www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI328 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 386 1 leadership. 2 Q. What about Mr. Bock? It says chairman. Is 3 that chairman of the board of Monsanto? 4 A. No. He's chairman of this committee. 5 Q. He's chairman of this committee. But -- So 6 these -- this is high level management? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And have you seen these minutes before? 9 A. They appear familiar, yes. 10 Q. Could you please go to the second page where 11 it says "Plan of Action" and read into the record the 12 first paragraph? 13 A. "The availability of alternate products to 14 satisfy customer requirements was reviewed. Main 15 problems are that no replacement product is available 16 for capacitors and replacement products for other uses 17 pose a pollution problem. 18 In plasticizer use, evidence is not 19 available as to whether Aroclor escapes from end 20 products, either through leeching or by dispersal in 21 burning. 22 The recommended plan of action is to 23 establish a tailored program for each business group 24 and each customer market situation to assure that the 25 loss of PCBs in the environment, if any, is minimal." www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI329 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Paqe 387 1 Q. And then could you please turn to the next 2 page? Is that a 12 point action plan that this 3 committee devised in November 1969? 4 MR. OAAS: Object to the form of the 5 question 6 A. I have it. 7 Q. What is set out on the last page of 8 Exhibit 41 in this memo dated November 17th, 1969? 9 MR. OAAS: Object to the form of the 10 question 11 A. It lists 12 activities to be pursued in 12 following the PCB situation. 13 Q. And what's the first activity? 14 A. "Appoint a project manager." 15 Q. And who was that? 16 A. That was me. 17 Q. And when did you start your job in that role? 18 A. January the 1st of 1970 as best I recall. 19 Q. What's action plan item number two? 20 A. "Notify all Aroclor customers of the PCB 21 problem. vv 22 Q. Can you please tell us generally what 23 Monsanto did in that regard? 24 A. Generally, we had the different business 25 groups involved with Aroclors assign individuals www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI330 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 388 1 within their groups who would contact customers and do 2 it verbally and in writing informing them of the 3 growing PCB issue. 4 Q. What is action item number three? 5 A. "Reduce and effectively control PCB effluents 6 from Monsanto plants." 7 Q. Item four? 8 A. "Educate customers on need to reduce and 9 effectively control PCB effluents at their plants." 10 Q. Let me hand you Plaintiff's Exhibit 4 that 11 was marked at your prior deposition when Plaintiffs' 12 counsel was asking you questions. You've already 13 identified this memo in your earlier deposition, but 14 could you please tell us whether this ANSI Committee 15 was part of carrying out action item number four? 16 A. Yes. This covered that -- that specific set 17 of customers. 18 Q. The customers in the electrical industry? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. But action was also taken in relation to 21 customers in other industries? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. What is action item number five, please, in 24 Exhibit 41, the November 1969 12 point action plan? 25 A. "Develop and implement new packaging systems www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI331 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 389 1 for Aroclor 1254/1260." 2 Q. And what was done in that regard? 3 A. A conveyor belt pumping system vapor recovery 4 facility was built so that the 1260 and 1254 that was 5 being placed in drums could be transferred into those 6 drums without any spillage on the surface in which the 7 equipment was mounted and without any fumes being 8 released. 9 Q. What is point six on the action plan? 10 A. "Introduce to marketreplacement products for 11 Aroclor 1254 and 1260." 12 Q. Was that possible in the capacitor industry? 13 A. At that time, no. 14 Q. Did it -- Was it able to be developed --Was 15 a replacement product able to be developed later on? 16 A. Yes. Later on, there were replacement 17 products placed in use. 18 Q. The prior page, Mr. Papageorge, if you could 19 turn back a page, where it says, "Main problems are 2 0 that no replacement product..." Could you please read 21 that sentence? 22 A. "Main problems are that no replacement 23 product is available for capacitors and replacement 24 products for other use -- uses pose a pollution 25 problem." www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI332 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 390 1 Q. So the concern was that the replacement might 2 be a -- might pose similar environmental issues? 3 A. Yes. That was -- 4 MR. OAAS: Object to the form of the 5 question 6 A. That was a consideration, yes. 7 Q. What is Aroclor 1016? 8 A. 1016 is a modified Aroclor 1242. The Aroclor 9 1242 was redistilled to remove the higher chlorinated 10 Aroclors that were PCBs that were present in the 1242 11 such that 1016 ended up being an effective dielectric 12 fluid for capacitors without the more persistent 13 higher chlorinated PCBs. 14 Q. Would you please read action item seven into 15 the record? 16 A. "Continue and expand biodegradation test 17 program with Aroclor series, particularly 1242, 1248, 18 and 1254 !? 19 Q. And do you know, was Dr. Scott Tucker of 20 Monsanto in charge of that program? 21 A. He was certainly very much involved. I don't 22 know -23 Q. You don't know if "in charge" was the proper 24 word. Let me rephrase the question. Was Dr. Scott 25 Tucker of Monsanto heavily involved in the www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI333 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 391 1 biodegradation studies that Monsanto undertook with 2 regard to PCBs? 3 A. Yes, he was. 4 Q. What is action item number eight, please? 5 A. "Continue toxicological test program." 6 Q. And what did Monsanto do in that regard? 7 A. Monsanto had established with a toxicity 8 testing laboratory in the Chicago area, as best I 9 remember , to test the various Aroclors with the 10 typical test animals. 11 Q. Such as? 12 A. Dogs. 13 Q. Rats? 14 A. And rats. 15 Q. Hamsters? 16 A. Hamsters. Some chickens. 17 MR. OAAS: I don't mean -- Was that 18 Bio-Test he's referring to? 19 MS. RUTTER: Yes. 20 Q. All right. Was that Industrial Bio-Test that 21 -- 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. -- you're referring to? 24 MR. OAAS: Thank you. Appreciate it. 25 Q. Now, Monsanto had previously had toxicity www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI334 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 392 1 testing performed at the Kettering Laboratory by a 2 Dr. Treon; is that correct? I believe Plaintiffs' 3 counsel asked you questions -- 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. -- about Dr. Kettering (sic.). These were 6 additional toxicity tests? 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. What was your personal experience over your 9 years of working -- your many years of working with 10 PCBs, Mr. Papageorge, about the toxicity of PCBs to 11 Monsanto workers? 12 A. Ooh, my personal experience. There was many 13 an opportunity for exposure. That exposure would, of 14 course, vary depending on the activity that the worker 15 might find himself involved with. I found it very 16 interesting that many of the retirement programs that 17 I attended with these workers just how active and 18 healthy they appeared, and I'm not a doctor or a 19 medical person, but they struck me as being very 20 active and had an activity like farming, for example, 21 that they entered as soon as they retired from 2 2 Monsanto. 23 The only experience of a negative nature 24 that I witnessed was the situation in which one 25 employee at the Anniston plant had been seen by the www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI335 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 393 1 plant doctor because his hands were damaged, I'm going 2 to call it, red skin and peeling skin, very heavily 3 damaged hands. 4 The doctor reported that to me, so I 5 deliberately made it a point to come out and see this 6 worker, who, because of his seniority, and for reasons 7 known only to him, he chose to work only the midnight 8 shift, and because of his seniority he could, instead 9 of having a rotating schedule like the rest of the 10 workers, he would make trade-offs with other 11 individuals. Nevertheless, it turns out that he was 12 careless in not wearing gloves and other protection 13 when he handled PCBs. 14 That's the only damage I personally 15 witnessed relating to PCBs. 16 Q. In your several decades of working with them? 17 A. That is true. 18 Q. And was this worker that you've described 19 with the red hands, was he violating Monsanto's safe 20 handling practices? 21 A. Definitely. 22 MR. OAAS: Object to the form of the 23 question. 24 Q. What safe handling did -- practices did 25 Monsanto recommend for its workers in relation to PCBs www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI336 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 394 1 in the manufacturing facility? 2 A. Well, the recommendations were varied. They 3 addressed how to cope with vapors, how to avoid 4 exposure to the -- to the liquids. They were taught 5 how to use respirators, how to use their gloves, how 6 to wear their protective shoes, how to change their 7 work clothes when the clothes became contaminated, how 8 to avoid spreading any spilled material by walking 9 through it. 10 Q. I take it that as with almost any industrial 11 chemical, it wasn't recommended that you touch the 12 chemical with your bare hands? 13 A. Very true. 14 MR. OAAS: Object to the form of the 15 question. 16 Q. In any event, this employee who had reddened 17 hands had been having direct hand contact with the 18 PCBs? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Did he recover and come back to work? 21 A. Yes, he did. 22 Q. So back to point eight in this 12 point 23 action plan from November of 1969, where Monsanto is 24 continuing a toxicological test program, was the 25 effort in light of the Jensen/Widmark discovery to www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI337 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 395 1 evaluate the potential effects, if any, of tiny 2 amounts of PCBs in the environment? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Could you please read point nine of the 12 5 point action plan? 6 A. "Accelerate present analytical test program." 7 Q. And by "analytical test program," that refers 8 to Dr. Scott Tucker's and Dr. Keller's work with the 9 new equipment, the combined mass spec GC? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. What's point 10 of the 12 point action plan? 12 A. "Determine feasibility and cost of 13 eliminating the 5/6 chlorine in Aroclors 1242 and 14 1248." 15 Q. And was that done? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And is that the MCS 1016 that we were talking 18 about earlier? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What's point 11 of the 12 point action plan? 21 A. "Study incineration products." 22 Q. Were you personally involved in that. 23 Mr. Papageorge? 24 A. Well, I was following it very closely. I did 25 not take samples personally or... But I was well www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI338 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 396 1 aware of the program and the analysis that resulted. 2 Q. And what incineration program ultimately was 3 Monsanto able to offer its customers? 4 A. Well, once Monsanto had installed an 5 incinerator capable of doing the PCB destruction 6 disposal program, it offered to those individuals that 7 had PCBs that they wanted destroyed an opportunity to 8 send that material to Monsanto's plant and eventually 9 that material would be destroyed properly. 10 MS. RUTTER: Miss Russo, where is the 11 original of this notebook? Miss Olliges, could you 12 please mark that as Notebook B containing Exhibits 13 M-42 through M-75? 14 (Reporter marked Defendant's Exhibit 15 Notebook B for identification.) 16 Q. Mr. Papageorge, could you please turn to the 17 first exhibit in Notebook B, Exhibit M-42, and could 18 you please identify for the record what this letter 19 is? 20 A. This is a letter dated February 9, 1970, 21 prepared and transmitted by Donald A. Olson, Director 22 of Sales, Functional Fluids Group, to its listed 23 customers. 24 Q. And does this letter, this February 9th, 1970 25 letter, M-42, relate to point two of the 12 point www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI339 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 397 1 action plan, "notify the customers of the PCB issues"? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What's your best estimate of how many of 4 these letters were mailed out? 5 MR. OAAS: I just want to object to the 6 form of the question. Are we just talking about 7 plasticizer customers or all customers in general? 8 MS. RUTTER: To all the customers on the 9 distribution list on the documents that were produced 10 to you and are sitting behind you in those boxes. I'm 11 just asking him right now for his best estimate of 12 the... 13 A. As close as I can come -- 14 MR. OAAS: Well, I just want -- I just 15 want to know are you talking about all customers? 16 MS. RUTTER: I'll note -- 17 MR. OAAS: Or, rather, just the Functional 18 Fluids Group or the Plasticizer Group or - 19 MS. RUTTER: I'm talking to -- about all 20 customers -- 21 MR. OAAS: Okay. Okay. 22 MS. RUTTER: -- that are on the 23 distribution list. 24 MR. OAAS: You don't need to get the 25 distribution list. I just want -- Are you talking www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI340 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 398 1 about direct customers? 2 MS. RUTTER: Right now I'm talking about 3 all customers who are on the distribution list, get my 4 microphone back, that are on the inch-thick 5 distribution list that is attached to Exhibit M-87 or, 6 excuse me, M-88 -- 7 MR. OAAS: Okay. 8 MS. RUTTER: That has beenproduced 9 previously to counsel and is behind him in the boxes. 10 MR. OAAS: Okay. I'm familiar with that. 11 MS. RUTTER: Okay. 12 MR. OAAS: I just wanted to know what you 13 were referring to. 14 BY MS. RUTTER: 15 Q. Okay. So, Mr. Papageorge, what's your best 16 estimate of the number of customers that this 17 February 9th, 1970 letter, which has been marked 18 Exhibit M-42, were sent to? 19 MR. OAAS: I just want to object to form 20 of the guestion that Exhibit 88 will speak for itself 21 in terms of numbers. 22 Q. You may answer subject to that objection. 23 A. I don't have a number in mind. It's just so 24 many of them, and this particular letter was sent to 25 only a small number of total PCB customers. This is www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI341 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 399 1 just the Functional Fluids Group. 2 Q. And if we turn to the next exhibit. 3 Exhibit M-43, could you please identify this record. 4 this exhibit for the record? 5 A. This is a letter dated February 19, 1970, 6 which was mailed to a Mr. McCall of Great Western 7 Chemical Company, and the letter was signed by 8 W. E. Schalk, S-C-H-A-L-K, Director of Sales for 9 Plasticizers. 10 Q. Was this letter -- And who was Great Western 11 Chemical Company? What was its relationship to 12 Monsanto , if you know? 13 A. They were a distributor. 14 Q. Was this letter sent to other distributors as 15 well? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Could you please turn to page two of this 18 February 19th, 1970, letter? 19 A. Page -- 20 Q. Right. 21 A. -- two. All right. 22 Q. That page. And do you see the paragraph 23 where it says "for your guidance"? 24 A. I do. 25 Q. Could you please read that into the record? www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI342 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 400 1 A. "For your guidance, we intend to mail the 2 attached letter to all our Aroclor customers around 3 February 27. The letter will be addressed to the 4 Office of the President at the Accounts Receivable 5 address which we hold in our files. We will send you 6 sufficient copies of the letter for your needs in 7 notifying your customers. 8 To help you further, we have drafted a 9 cover letter which you may wish to use in notifying 10 your customers. A copy is attached, but the decision 11 whether to use it or draft your own cover letter is, 12 of course, yours. 13 We regret the work that this request may 14 cause you. As a responsible supplier, however, we 15 feel we have a duty to keep our customers fully 16 informed in matters concerning the safe handling of 17 our products. We are sure of your support in this 18 matter and are confident of your assistance along the 19 lines indicated." 20 Q. Could you please turn to Exhibit M-44, 21 Mr. Papageorge? It's here in the notebook. 22 Did you attend the Duluth conference in 23 March of 1970 that is referenced in Exhibit M-44? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. This is certainly a document that you've seen www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI343 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 401 1 before? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. If you could please turn to the third page of 4 the exhibit, it's called "Agenda For PCB Meeting, 5 March 70 -- March 17th, 1970"? 6 A. I have it. 7 Q. And could you please turn to the next page or 8 pages? Are those pages entitled "List of Persons 9 Attending PCB Meeting, March 17th, 1970, Hotel 10 Duluth"? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Do you have an estimate of how many people 13 attended that meeting? 14 A. About 400 or -- It was an auditorium full. 15 Q. A large number? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And if you'll look at the first list of 18 attendees, can you just read into the record the first 19 three attendees? I certainly don't intend to go 20 through the whole list. The first gentleman listed. 21 for example, was Richard A. -22 A. Schoettger. 23 Q. Schoet -- 24 A. Schoettger (pronouncing Shett-ger), 25 Schoettger (pronouncing Shote-ger). www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI344 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 402 1 Q. And he was from where? 2 A. Fish Pesticide Research Lab in Columbia, 3 Missouri 4 Q. What was the next agency listed in 5 attendance? 6 A. Victor Lambou, Fresh Water Protection -7 FWPCA, I forget, in Washington, D.C. 8 Q. Some water -- some federal water protection 9 agency? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. The next individual? 12 A. David Stalling, Fish Pesticide Research Lab 13 in Columbia, Missouri. 14 Q. And then if you skip down, where was 15 J. Cameron MacLeod from? 16 A. Fisheries Research Board of Canada, 17 Freshwater Institute, Winnipeg. 18 Q. Turning to the next page, did we have 19 attendees from the Department of Fisheries and 20 Forestry in Winnipeg? Mr. Crowley or Cowley? 21 A. Oh, yes. Yes. Len J. Cowley, Department of 22 Fisheries and Forestry. 23 Q. And below him, the WARF Institute from 24 Madison, Wisconsin? 25 A. Yes. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI345 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 403 1 Q. Now, did Monsanto financially support the 2 work of that group on identification of PCBs in fish 3 and water? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Could you please read the next-to-last name? 6 A. I'm sorry. 7 Q. I'm sorry. On the page we were on. 8 A. On that list. All right. 9 Q. Mr. Dustman. 10 A. Mr. Dustman, Patuxent Wildlife Research 11 Center, Bureau of Sports Fisheries and Wildlife at 12 Laurel, Maryland. 13 Q. And then it appears we have representatives 14 from various state agencies, including from Michigan, 15 Rhode Island, University of Wisconsin, and a number of 16 states? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Did Monsanto make a presentation at this 19 Duluth meeting, Mr. Papageorge? 20 A. I think I spoke there. 21 MR. SHAW: Five minutes of video tape 22 remain. 23 MS. RUTTER: Okay. 24 Q. Could you please turn to Exhibit No. 45, 25 Mr. Papageorge, and could you identify this generally www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI346 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 404 1 for the record, please? 2 A. This is a Technical Bulletin published by 3 Monsanto relating to Aroclors used as plasticizers. 4 Q. And if you'll turn to the next-to-last page 5 of that document, what's the date on it? 6 A. March '70. 7 Q. Now, could you please turn to the page that's 8 Bates labeled 856 of this March 1970 -- March 1970 9 bulletin, M-45. It's 856 at the bottom. 10 A. There. 11 Q. And could you please readinto the record the 12 "Environmental Hazards" paragraph that's in this March 13 1970 Aroclor Plasticizers Technical Bulletin? 14 A. It's entitled "EnvironmentalHazards". 15 "Aroclor 1232, Aroclor 1242, Aroclor 1248, Aroclor 16 1254, Aroclor 1260, Aroclor 1262, Aroclor 1268, 17 Aroclor 4465, and Montar 1 all contain polychlorinated 18 biphenyls (PCB) of various types and in varying 19 amounts. PCB residues in small amounts have been 20 found in the environment and some studies have 21 indicated that they may be harmful to certain forms of 22 animal life. Extreme care should therefore be taken 23 by all users of PCB-containing products to prevent any 24 entry into the environment through spills, leakage, 25 use, disposal, vaporization or otherwise. Further, www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI347 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 405 1 the products in which PCB materials are used, or which 2 are formulated using PCB materials as a component, 3 should be given careful study to eliminate the 4 possibility that PCB might reach the environment as a 5 result of use in a given application. 6 Some specific applications where the use 7 of PCB should definitely be avoided are in paints and 8 sealants for swimming pools, paints and waterproofing 9 agents in silos and other buildings where food 10 products for humans or animals are stored, and as a 11 component of any container or wrapping used in the 12 packaging of food products." 13 Q. And to whom was this Aroclor Plasticizer 14 Technical Bulletin, dated March 1970, Exhibit M-45, 15 distributed by Monsanto? 16 A. The customers or users. 17 MS. RUTTER: This would probably be a good 18 time to stop. 19 MR. SHAW: This will end tape number two 20 in the continued deposition of William Papageorge. We 21 are off the record at 11:39 a.m. 22 (Reporter marked Defendant's Exhibit 23 Notebook D for identification.) 24 (Whereupon, there was a brief recess.) 25 MR. SHAW: We are back on the record at www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI348 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 406 1 11:46 a.m. This will begin tape number three in the 2 continued deposition of William Papageorge. 3 Q. For the record, we have just had marked out 4 of sequence in response to one of Plaintiffs' 5 counsel's previous objections a notebook that we are 6 calling Notebook D, and it has in it tabs A through N 7 bearing various dates on the tabs. 8 And, Mr. Papageorge, could you please go 9 to the very first tab in Notebook D to the exhibit 10 that's marked M-88, and can you please identify this 11 document for the record? 12 A. This is a letter authored by Donald A. Olson, 13 Director of Sales, Functional Fluids Group, dated 14 February 9, 1970. 15 Q. And it appears to be the same letter as the 16 letter marked Exhibit M-42 in the notebook you just 17 looked at? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. This letter has with it the distribution list 20 of the customers to which it was -- the letter was 21 mailed; is that correct? 22 MR. OAAS: I'm just going to object to the 23 form of the question because we're -- are we dealing 24 with -- Are we just dealing with -- Does the list just 25 refer to the functional fluid list? www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI349 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 407 1 MS. RUTTER: The list attached to the 2 letter is the mailing list. 3 MR. OAAS: For the Functional Fluids Group 4 only. 5 MS. RUTTER: We'll look at the list. 6 MR. OAAS: All right. 7 BY MS. RUTTER: 8 Q. Mr. Papageorge, did Monsanto maintain copies 9 of the mailing lists to whom its customer warning 10 letters about PCBs were sent? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And is a copy of the mailing list for the 13 February 9th, 1970, Donald Olson letter attached to 14 Exhibit M-88? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Could you please turn to the page that's 17 Bates labeled 21 in that distribution list? 18 A. I have it. 19 MR. OAAS: That's MCL 000021? 20 MS. RUTTER: It is. 21 MR. OAAS: Okay. 22 Q. And in the third-to-last row in the middle. 23 can you please tell me to whom the distribution list 24 shows that this letter was sent, the February 9th, 25 1970, letter? www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI350 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 408 1 A. It's Director of Purchases, Hercules, 2 Incorporated; Imperiar (sic.) Color Chemical and Paper 3 Department, Glens Falls, New York. 4 Q. Could you please turn to the page that's been 5 Bates labeled 23 in the notebook or on Exhibit M-88? 6 It's just a couple pages over. Do you have that page? 7 A. I do. 8 Q. And the fourth row from the bottom in the 9 middle, can you please read another customer to whom 10 the February 9th, 1970, warning letter was sent? 11 A. Director of Purchases, Koppers Company, 12 Incorporated, 750 Koppers Building, Pittsburgh, 13 Pennsylvania. 14 Q. Could you please turn now a number of pages 15 over on the mailing list to page 48, and in the very 16 top right-hand column read to me the first customer 17 listed on the distribution list as also having 18 received this February 9th, 1970, warning letter from 19 Monsanto? 20 A. Office of the President, Great Western Chem 21 Company, Incorporated, 860 Wharf Street, Richmond, 22 California. 23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Papageorge. Could you please 24 turn -- And there are a number of other customers on 25 this mailing list; is this correct? www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI351 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 409 1 A. Oh, yes. 2 Q. Quite a few? 3 A. Many. 4 Q. We could count them up, but I didn't. Let's 5 turn to tab B since we are trying to wrap this up as 6 expeditiously as possible given all the documents we 7 have. 8 A. I have tab B. 9 Q. Okay. And you know tab B I think we already 10 covered in your prior notebook, so we'11 skip to 11 tab C. And can you please identify the letter that's 12 under tab C? 13 A. Tab C? 14 Q. Yes. It should be dated April 29th, 1970. 15 A. It's a letter signed by W. E. Schalk, 16 Director of Sales, Plasticizers, and it's dated April 17 29, 1970, and mailed to Mr. W. C. McCall, President, 18 Great Western Chemical Company, 3720 North West Yeon 19 Avenue, Portland, Oregon, 97210. 20 Q. And for the record, that letter has been 21 labeled M-50; is that correct? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. And was this April 29th, 1970, letter sent to 24 all of Monsanto's distributors? 25 A. Yes. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI352 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 410 1 Q. Let's go to tab D. Can you please identify 2 the two letters under tab D that have been labeled 3 respectively 52-A. 1 and 52-A.2? 4 A. 52-A.l is a letter dated May 11, 1970, signed 5 by W. E. Schalk, Director of Sales, Plasticizers, and 6 it's addressed to Mr. J. W. Sohrage, American Mineral 7 Spirits Company, 3100 South Meacham Road, Palatine, 8 Illinois, 60067. 9 Q. And to whom is the second letter, apparently 10 duplicate letter, other than the addressee that's been 11 marked 52-A.2 directed? 12 A. That letter is addressed to a Mr. Karl F. 13 Giloth, Vice President, Central Solvents and Chemicals 14 Company, 2540 West Fluornoy Street, Chicago, Illinois, 15 60612. 16 Q. And were American Mineral Spirits Company and 17 Central Solvents & Chemicals Company also plasticizer 18 distributors for Monsanto? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Mr. Papageorge, during the questioning by 21 Plaintiffs' counsel, he asked you a number of 22 questions about Plaintiff's Exhibit 56. Do you recall 23 generally this April 13th, 1970,memo and Plaintiffs' 24 counsel's questions about Exhibit 56? 25 A. Yes, I recall it. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI353 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 411 1 Q. Can you tell me looking at these letters to 2 some of Monsanto's plasticizer distributors dated May 3 1970, after this April 1970 memo that was Plaintiff's 4 56, whether these letters were sent to customers in 5 response to the information that Mr. Paton was 6 reporting to you in Exhibit 56? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And could you please read into the record not 9 the entire letter, but just the part that starts "By 10 now you will have been informed"? 11 A. "By now you will have informed your customers 12 of this possible environmental problem. Subsequent to 13 our earlier letter, other reports concerning PCBs have 14 been published. An examination of the PCB matter has 15 indicated that their use in certain applications may 16 be a source of the alleged environmental 17 contamination. For this reason, no sales or shipments 18 of the Aroclor 1200 series products for the following 19 applications will be made after June 1, 1970: shoe 2 0 polish, cleaning compounds, perfumes, catheters, dust 21 control agents, dental adhesives/molds, optical uses, 22 sprinkler systems, Christmas tree flame retardants." 23 Q. And then could you just read the next two 24 sentences? 25 A. "We are notifying direct customers using the www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI354 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 412 1 above-mentioned products in these applications 2 immediately of this decision. As a distributor of 3 these products, it would seem appropriate that you 4 follow the same course of action. Our records show 5 the following products and applications being served 6 by you." 7 Q. And the exhibit itself will reflect what 8 those were. But the May 11th, 1970, letters. Exhibits 9 52.A. 1 and 2 were Monsanto's response to the 10 information contained in Cumming Paton's memo dated 11 April 13th, 1970, that Plaintiffs' counsel asked you 12 about as Exhibit 56? 13 A. Yes. 14 MR. OAAS: Object to the form of the 15 question. 16 Q. Let's go to tab G, Mr. Papageorge. 17 A. Tab E? 18 Q. G as in 19 A. Oh, G. 20 Q. -- Georgia. Who is the letter from and who 21 is the letter to and the date, please, Mr. Papageorge? 22 A. The letter is authored by A. W. Hempelmann, 23 Northwest Area Manager, Organic Division. 24 Q. Was he a Monsanto employee? 25 A. Yes. And it's addressed to Mr. Frank N. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI355 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 413 1 Youngman , Jr., Great Western Chemical Company, 3720 2 North West Yeon Avenue, Portland, Oregon, 97210, dated 3 July 31, 1970. 4 Q. And just looking at the first paragraph of 5 the letter, what is the general subject matter? 6 A. The general subject matter has to do with 7 polyester polyurethane coatings for exterior use. 8 Q. Could you just read that first paragraph into 9 the record, please? 10 A. I'm sorry? 11 Q. That first paragraph. 12 A. Oh, the first paragraph? 13 Q. Yes. 14 A. "Thanks for your letter of July 16, Frank, 15 requesting our recommendations for replacement of 16 Aroclor 1254 in cast or molded polyurethane parts and 17 in polyester coatings for exterior use." 18 Q. So it appears that Great Western Chemical 19 Company was contacting Monsanto in July 1970 to 20 discuss replacements for Aroclor 1254? 21 A. Yes. 22 MR. OAAS: Object to the form of that 23 question 24 Q. Please turn to the next tab, tab H, and 25 identify that letter for the record, please. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI356 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 414 1 A. This is a Monsanto letter dated August 14, 2 1970, signed by Walter E. Schalk, Director of Sales, 3 Plasticizers. 4 Q. And, in general, does this letter discuss a 5 returned goods policy? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. The gist of that policy was that if unopened 8 barrels of PCBs were returned within a certain time 9 period full credit would be given and Monsanto would 10 pay the freight? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Could you please turn to Exhibit M-60.1 and 13 tell me whether this August 14th, 1970, letter was 14 sent to Monsanto's distributors? 15 A. I'm sorry. 16 MR. OAAS: I'm going to object to the form 17 of the guestion on the basis of foundation. 18 A. Which reference did you refer to initially? 19 Oh, this? 20 Q. There. 21 A. Oh, there. 22 Q. Exhibit 60.1. 23 A. Okay. Yes. The answer is yes. 24 Q. Have you seen this May 9th, 1973, memo to 25 file about the mailing before? www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI357 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 415 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Now, please lookat the next exhibit in this 3 grouping, which is called M-102. It's under the same 4 tab, but it has a different exhibit number on it. 5 A. I have it. 6 Q. What's the date of this letter, and who 7 signed it? 8 A. The date is August 14, 1970, and it's signed 9 by Walter E. Schalk. 10 Q. Could you please read the last paragraph of 11 that letter into the record? 12 A. Monsanto -- No. Thelast? 13 Q. Oh, I'm sorry. On the first page. The last 14 paragraph of the first page. 15 A. "It wasrecently brought to our attention 16 that the Food and Drug Administration has apparently 17 established guidelines setting forth suggested maximum 18 levels of PCBs allowable in certain foods. These 19 levels, as we understand them, are five parts per 20 million in fish and 0.2 parts per million in milk. 21 Monsanto, therefore, strongly recommends that PCBs not 22 be used in applications which could lead, either 23 directly or indirectly, to the contamination of food 24 and water supplies for humans or animals. Examples of 25 applications which would seem particularly hazardous www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI358 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 416 1 would be coatings for water treatment facilities, 2 coatings for food handling equipment, and coatings for 3 such farm items as silos and feed hoppers." 4 Q. Can you please look at the page Bates labeled 5 MCL 416, Mr. Papageorge, and tell me whether this is 6 the mailing list for the August 14th letter, 1970, 7 letter, in 102? 8 MR. OAAS: I'm going to object as to 9 foundation. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Let's just read into the record some of the 12 names of the types of customers who received the 13 August 14th, 1970, letter Bates labelled M-102. 14 MR. OAAS: Well, I'm going to object to 15 the form of that question as to foundation, and I'm 16 going to object to counsel's phrasing the question in 17 that these customers actually received this letter 18 when the actual exhibit doesn't contain any indication 19 that it was mailed or received by anybody on that 20 list. 21 Q. Mr. Papageorge, subject to counsel's 22 objections, you've identified the exhibit marked 102.1 23 as the mailing list for the letter that's in Exhibit 24 102; is that correct? 25 A. Yes. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI359 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Paqe 417 1 Q. Could you please read name number three on 2 the list? 3 MR. OAAS: I have the same objection to 4 that question. 5 A. Adelphi Paint & Color Works, Incorporated. 6 Q. Number seven? 7 A. Allied Paint Manufacturing Company. 8 Q. Number nine? 9 A. Amchem Products, Incorporated, Benjamin 10 Foster Division. 11 Q- Let's turn to the next page, number 13. 12 A. American Lacquer & Solvent Company. 13 Q. Let's turn to page 420, number 59. 14 A. Columbia Paint & Varnish Company. 15 MR. OAAS: I just want to object to the 16 form of that question and any implication in that 17 question that customer number 59 is the same Columbia 18 Paint Company that's the defendant in this lawsuit. 19 Q. My next question, for the record, to make 20 sure that he had read completely what was in here, is 21 please read the address for that particular Columbia 22 Paint & Varnish Company. 23 A. 452 Communipaw Avenue, Jersey City, New 24 Jersey , 07304. 25 Q. Turning the page, number 70. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI360 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 418 1 A. Davis Paint Manufacturers Company. 2 MR. OAAS: I didn't mean to interrupt you, 3 Mr. Papageorge. I just want the record to reflect 4 that I have the same objections to any questions in 5 reference to this exhibit. 6 MS. RUTTER: We just have a few more. 7 MR. OAAS: Okay. 8 Q. Number 74, please, Mr. Papageorge. 9 A. De Soto, Incorporated, Chemical Coatings 10 Division 11 Q- Number 95, please. 12 A. Ford Paint & Varnish Company. 13 Q. If you'll turn the page, number 117 and 118. 14 A. Glidden Durkee Division of SCM. Glidden 15 Durkee. 16 Q. Number 122. 17 A. Sherwin Williams Company. 18 Q. And then number 123, 124, and 125. 19 A. Great Western Chemical Company. 20 Q. And in what city was that one sent? 21 A. Richmond, California. 22 Q. 124? 23 A. Great Western Chemical Company, Portland, 24 Oregon. 25 Q. 125. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI361 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 419 1 A. Great Western Chemical Company, Seattle, 2 Washington. 3 Q. Let's turn to the next page. Number 142. 4 A. Jordan Paint Company. 5 Q. Number 149. 6 A. Kohler McLister Paint Company. 7 Q. And then numbers 150 through 153. 8 A. Koppers Company, Incorporated, Richmond, 9 California; Koppers Company, Incorporated, Newark, New 10 Jersey; Koppers Company, Westfield, New Jersey; 11 Koppers Company, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. 12 Q. And we could go on and on, but for the sake 13 of shortening things up a bit, if you could turn to 14 433, customer number 205. 15 A. Sherwin Williams Company. 16 Q. And that's of Cleveland, Ohio? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Mr. Papageorge, can you please turn to tab J 19 in Notebook D? And could you please identify this 20 memo by author and date? Author, date, and subject. 21 A. The author is Francis Stupfell. 22 Q. And by whom is he employed? 23 A. Monsanto. Dated January 4, 1971. 24 Q. And what is the subject matter? 25 A. Great Western Chemical Company, Seattle, www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI362 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 420 1 Washington. 2 Q. Could you please just read the first 3 paragraph of this memo into the record? 4 A. "Attached is Return Material Notice covering 5 10-600 pound drums Aroclor 1254, which was returned 6 12-30-70 by subject firm to the Krummrich Plant as 7 indicated by copy of B/L attached." 8 Q. And then could you please read the second 9 paragraph? 10 A. "This is one of our discontinued Aroclors and 11 in line with our policy, since it was returned prior 12 to December 31, 1970, the customer is to be given full 13 credit." 14 Q. Could you please turn to tab L in Notebook D? 15 And could you please identify this document for the 16 record by author, addressee, and date? 17 A. The author is W. E. Schalk. The date's 18 September 27, 1971, and it's addressed to Mr. Ernest 19 McCall, Great Western Chemical Company, 6900 Fox 20 Avenue, Seattle, Washington, 98108. 21 Q. And is the general subject matter of this 22 letter again PCBs? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. I inadvertently skipped oneletter. 25 you please go to tab E as in empty? Could www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI363 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 421 1 A. Did you say E? 2 Q. E as in Evelyn. 3 A. I have it. 4 Q. Who is the author of the letter, who is the 5 addressee, and what's the date on the letter, please? 6 A. The author is W. E. Schalk, Director of 7 Sales, Plasticizers. The addressee is Mr. W. C. 8 McCall, President, Great Western Chemical Company, 9 3720 North West Yeon Avenue, Portland, Oregon, 97210, 10 and it's dated May 25, 1970. 11 Q. Could you please turn to the second page of 12 this letter and read the first paragraph into the 13 record? 14 A. "In review of the allegations which have been 15 made concerning PCBs, and being a concerned and 16 responsible member of the world community, we have 17 come to a decision to discontinue the sale of the 18 above PCB-containing products for modifier and 19 plasticizer applications effective August 30, 1970." 20 Q. And is Exhibit M-53 that you just read from a 21 letter that Monsanto sent to its plasticizer 22 distributor customers, including Great Western, on or 23 about May 25th, 1970? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Mr. Papageorge, let me hand you what's been www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI364 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 422 1 marked as Exhibit M-48. 2 MS. RUTTER: Mr. Oaas, it's in your second 3 notebook. 4 Q. Can you please identify Exhibit M-48 for the 5 record, Mr. Papageorge? 6 A. These reflect minutes of meeting of the 7 Corporate Management Committee, April 20, 1970. 8 Q. And that's the Corporate Management Committee 9 of Monsanto Company? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. If you'll turn to the second page, can you 12 tell us, please, Mr. Papageorge, were you among the 13 attendees at that meeting? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And these are minutes that you saw after that 16 meeting concluded? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Could you please read the last paragraph on 19 the second page starting "division"? 20 A. "Division has maintained an aggressive 21 program of customer education, and cooperative efforts 22 with research organizations, governmental agencies and 23 wildfire groups to identify the scope of the problem, 24 eliminate discharges, improve analytical methods, and 25 conduct toxicity studies." www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI365 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 423 1 Q. Could you please read just the next two 2 essentially bullet points that are carry-over on the 3 next page? 4 A. "Concerned agencies and groups are 5 appreciative of our efforts. FDA indicated it was 6 contemplating a residue level of 0.5 ppm in milk and 7 5.0 ppm in food." 8 Q. And then could you skip down to conclusions, 9 please, and read the first paragraph starting "the 10 committee"? 11 A. "The Committee felt that while the division 12 had taken major steps to resolve this problem, more 13 affirmative action must be taken. A replacement 14 product should be developed on a crash basis for the 15 NCR application." 16 Q. And then if you could just read the first 17 sentence in the next paragraph. 18 A. "It was decided that the affirmative action 19 being taken should be communicated to concerned 20 governmental agencies together with the reasons for 21 continuing sales to the limited uses which would 22 involve major public hardships if immediately 23 discontinued." 24 Q. Let me hand you what's been marked as 25 Exhibit M-52 and ask if you can identify that for the www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI366 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 424 1 record. 2 MS. RUTTER: And, again, Mr. Oaas, that's 3 in your notebook. 4 A. Minutes of Meeting of the Corporate 5 Management Committee, May 11, 1970. 6 Q. And, again, that's the Corporate Management 7 Committee of Monsanto Company? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Did you see these minutes in May 1970 shortly 10 after they were prepared? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Could you please summarize the mandates that 13 were given by the committee as a result of this 14 May 11th, 1970, Corporate Management Committee meeting 15 of Monsanto? The first action item is to discontinue 16 sale of Aroclor 1242 to NCR; is that correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 MR. OAAS: I'm going to object to the form 19 of the guestion. 20 MS. RUTTER: Okay. 21 MR. OAAS: You didn't give him an 22 answer -- a chance to answer that other question, or 23 was that -24 MS. RUTTER: I'm -- 25 MR. OAAS: Okay. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI367 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 425 1 MS. RUTTER: I'm just -- I'm very 2 cognizant of our time -- 3 MR. OAAS: All right. 4 MS. RUTTER: -- limitations here. 5 BY MS. RUTTER: 6 Q. Mr. Papageorge, could you please describe in 7 your own words or quoting from the document, as 8 appropriate, the action plan set out in these 9 May 11th , 1970, Corporate Management Committee 10 minutes? 11 A. Well, it was discontinue the sale of Aroclor 12 1242 to -- to NCR. 13 Q. And what was the NCR application? 14 A. This was the use in ink in copying machines. 15 The other, you referred to them as mandates, close the 16 loop on heat transfer applications where fire 17 resistance is vital and replace with alternates in 18 other cases. Replace all nonbiodegradable chlorinated 19 biphenyls in hydraulic applications. 20 Q. So that's for Pydrauls? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And there is a time line set out in this 23 memo? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And then what's the next point? www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI368 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 426 1 A. "Close the loop on all nonbiodegradable 2 chlorinated biphenyls in transformer applications." 3 Q. And what's the completion date on that? 4 A. August 1970. 5 Q. And what did that mean? 6 A. That was interpreted as meaning if you 7 continue using it, make sure that none of the material 8 gets into the environment. 9 Q. And was that an action item for Monsanto to 10 carry out in customer education? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. What's the next action item? 13 A. "Close the loop on capacitors as far as 14 possible and replace 1242 with 1242B." 15 Q. And is 1242B the same thing as Aroclor 1016? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And you've testified about that previously? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. That was a more biodegradable form of 1242? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. And then the last action item? 22 A. "Terminate sales of all nonbiodegradable 23 chlorinated biphenyls to various noncontrollable end 24 uses. Complete by August 30, 1970." 25 Q. Did you meet that August 30, 1970, deadline? www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI369 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 427 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And, in fact, in the notebook you have in 3 front of you, under tab E, could you please look at 4 Exhibit M-53 under tab E? 5 A. Uh-huh. I have it. 6 Q. Okay. Is that the letter that Monsanto sent 7 to its customers shortly after this May 11th, 1970, 8 Corporate Management Committee meeting telling them 9 that Aroclors would be discontinued for plasticizer 10 applications effective August 30, 1970? 11 A. Well, this particular letter is addressed to 12 a distributor. 13 Q. Right. 14 A. And I don't know how that connects with the 15 previous question about sending it to its customers. 16 Q. Right. So we -- 17 A. This is -- Oh, this is -18 Q. This was the distributor letter. 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. Did a similar letter go to Monsanto's direct 21 customers? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And, in fact, is a copy of that letter right 24 behind Exhibit M-53 marked as Exhibit M-96? 25 A. Yes. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI370 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 428 1 Q. Let me hand you Exhibit M-62, Mr. Papageorge, 2 and ask you to please identify that for the record. 3 A. Minutes of the meeting of the Corporate 4 Management Committee, September 14, 1970. 5 Q. And the title of the -- at the bottom of the 6 page, "Organic Division"? 7 A. "Organic Division - PCB Status Report". 8 Q. Did you see copies of these minutes shortly 9 after they were prepared in September 1970? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Could you please turn to the conclusion 12 section on the last page of the letter and read that 13 into the record? 14 A. "The President commended the Division for the 15 excellent progress made on its program. The three 16 month's extension requested for phasing out of 17 products in hydraulic fluids was approved with the 18 caution that the Division continue to exert pressure 19 to move this program as fast as possible. Further 20 progress on the program should be reviewed with the 21 Committee in the first quarter of 1971." 22 Q. Let me hand you M-63 and ask you to identify 23 that for the record, please. 24 A. Minutes of the meeting of the Corporate 25 Management Committee on March 8, 1971. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOQ1371 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 429 1 Q. And, once again, are these minutes of the 2 Corporate Management Committee of Monsanto Company 3 that you saw shortly after they were prepared on 4 March 8th, 1971? 5 A. They are. 6 Q. And could you please read the final paragraph 7 on the final page? 8 A. "The President commended the Division for the 9 excellent results attained in this program, but 10 cautioned that continuing surveillance is required to 11 keep it working in an effective manner." 12 Q. Mr. Papageorge, after terminating plasticizer 13 applications effective August 30th, 1970, and other 14 open uses, what PCB applications were still in use as 15 of early 1971 when Exhibit M-63, the CDC minutes from 16 March '71, was created? 17 A. The use in electrical equipment. 18 Q. That's transformers and capacitors? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Could you please go back to your Notebook B? 21 I'11 hand it to you. I'll take your present notebook. 22 A. You want -- 23 Q. Yes. 24 MS. RUTTER: Miss Russo, could you please 25 get that notebook? I'm afraid I'll lose my microphone www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI372 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 430 1 otherwise. The videographer is pleased. 2 Q. Could you please turn to Exhibit M-72 in 3 Notebook B, Mr. Papageorge? 4 A. 72? 5 Q. Yes. Thank you. Can you please identify 6 this document for the record? 7 A. This is a report entitled "Polychlorinated 8 Biphenyls and the Environment" developed by the 9 Interdepartmental Task Force on PCBs in Washington, 10 D.C., and it's dated May 1972. 11 Q. Have you seen this document before? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Is it a document that you saw on or about the 14 date it was published apparently in May 1972? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Could you please turn to the -- Let me start 17 over. Could you please turn to the page that's Bates 18 labeled 1013 at the bottom. The last two numbers will 19 be 13. 20 First of all, under the topic 12 where it 21 says "Sponsoring Organization Names and Addresses," 22 can you tell me, please, who participated or who were 23 the government agencies that were among those 24 participating in the International (sic.) Task Force 2 5 report? www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI373 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 431 1 A. Gee, I hesitate because -- For example. 2 Department of Agriculture is a government agency. 3 Isn't this a listing of -4 Q. I must have asked a bad question. Let me 5 start over. Who were the government agents -- 6 agencies who participated in the International (sic.) 7 Task Force report? 8 A. Department of Agriculture and Department of 9 Commerce, the EPA and FDA. 10 Q. Department of the Interior? 11 A. Yes. Oh, you mean -- You want me to read 12 those. Is that -- 13 Q. Well, I think you covered most of them. And 14 then it says "plus other participating agencies"? 15 A. That's why I put the FDA in there. 16 Q. Right. And then where it says "Abstracts"? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Could you please read the first three 19 sentences into the record? 20 A. "This report is the product of a six-month 21 review of the chemicals known as PCBs - 22 polychlorinated biphenyls -- by five federal agencies 23 with participation by other agencies. The 24 Interdepartmental Task Force on PCBs had as its goal 25 the coordination of the scientific efforts of the www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI374 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 432 1 Government aimed at understanding PCBs and the 2 strengthening of the Government's ability to protect 3 the public from actual or potential hazards associated 4 with them. The task force made nine findings, 5 conclusions, and recommendations, primarily pointing 6 out that PCBs should be restricted to essential or 7 nonreplaceable uses which could minimize the 8 likelihood of human exposure or leakage to the 9 environment." 10 Q. Mr. Papageorge, could you please turn to the 11 page that's Bates labeled 1021 at the bottom? In the 12 third paragraph from the top, in about the middle. 13 there' s a reference to a Quail Roost Conference on 14 PCBs. Do you see that reference? 15 A. I do. 16 Q. Is that another PCB conference that you 17 attended? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What were the -- Who else attended? 20 A. I just don't remember them in detail. It 21 just.. 22 Q. I have a document here that has the 23 attendees, I believe, and I'll come to it in a minute. 24 I was just trying to short circuit. 25 A. Okay. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI375 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 433 1 Q. Was it a large attendance? Do you recall? 2 If you don't. I'll show you a document later on. 3 A. Well, it was more than a dozen people. 4 Q. Could you please turn to the page that's 5 Bates labeled 1023 at the bottom? 6 A. I have it. 7 Q. And I'm certainly not going to take the time 8 to have you read all nine conclusions of the task 9 force into the record, but could you please read 10 conclusion number one? 11 A. "PCBs should be restricted to essential or 12 non-replaceable uses which involve minimal direct 13 human exposure since they can have adverse effects on 14 human health. There currently are no toxicology - 15 toxicological or ecological data available to indicate 16 that the levels of PCBs currently known to be in the 17 environment constitute a threat to human health, but 18 additional experiments are underway to evaluate the 19 impact of low level, long-term exposure to PCBs." 20 Q. And, Mr. Papageorge, could you please turn to 21 point six on the page that's been labeled 1024? It's 22 the next page. Conclusion number six. And just read 23 the first paragraph there. 24 A. "Their continued use for transformers and 25 capacitors -- Let me back off. Let me start again. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI376 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 434 1 "The use of PCBs should not be banned entirely. Their 2 continued use for transformers and capacitors in the 3 near future is considered necessary because of the 4 significantly increased risk of fire and explosions 5 and the disruption of electrical service which would 6 result from a ban on PCB use. Also, continued use of 7 PCBs in transformers and capacitors presents a minimal 8 risk of environmental contamination. The Monsanto 9 Company, the sole domestic producer, has reported 10 voluntarily eliminating its distribution of PCBs to 11 all except manufacturers of electrical transformers 12 and capacitors." 13 Q. When did Monsanto discontinue the use of -- 14 the manufacture and sale of PCBs? 15 A. '77. 1977. 16 Q. And do you remember an exhibit that 17 Plaintiffs' counsel asked you questions about 18 involving a meeting between Russell Train of the EPA 19 and Monsanto and the electrical manufacturers? 20 A. I do. 21 Q. Do you rememberapproximatelywhen that 22 meeting occurred? I could find the document in a 2 3 minute, so you don't need to speculate. 24 MR. OAAS: I'll stipulate it took place in 25 1975 if it would speed things up. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI377 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 435 1 A. '75. I was going to say 1975-ish. 2 Q. Okay. You personally participated in that 3 meeting? 4 A. I was there, yes. 5 Q. Who was there for General Electric? 6 A. About -- About three individuals. I remember 7 Mr. Welsh particularly. 8 Q. Is that Jack Welsh? 9 A. Jack Welsh. 10 Q. He wasn't then at the level of the company 11 that he Later attained? 12 A. No. He -- That was I think his -- what I'm 13 going to call his entry job into GE. 14 Q. And who was Monsanto's vice president who 15 appeared at that meeting? 16 A. Fitzgerald. 17 Q. You knew him personally? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. You were there with him? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And what was the substance of 22 Mr. Fitzgerald's remarks at that meeting? 23 MR. OAAS: Well, I'm going to object to 24 the form of that question. It calls for hearsay. 25 Q. What was the message that Mr. Fitzgerald www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI378 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 436 1 delivered to the capacitor and transformer 2 manufacturers -- 3 MR. OAAS: Same objection. 4 Q. -- at this meeting? 5 MR. OAAS: Same objection as a disguised 6 hearsay question. Same objection. Foundation, 7 hearsay 8 A. In essence, it was one of we will fully 9 cooperate with the users of these electrical -10 dielectric liquids, and it was up to them to decide 11 what replacements could be found for that use and when 12 it could be effective. 13 Q. And in light of Plaintiffs' counsel's 14 objection, could you please turn to the exhibit that's 15 been marked M-74 in that notebook? 16 A. 74? 17 Q. Yes. 18 MR. SHAW: Four minutes of tape remaining. 19 MR. OAAS: Excuse me. I misspoke. The 20 meeting was in '76. 21 MS. RUTTER: I'm going to find your 22 exhibit in a minute. 23 BY MS. RUTTER: 24 Q. Mr. Papageorge, let me -- Don't lose your 25 place because I'm going to come back to Exhibit 74. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI379 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 437 1 Let me hand you Plaintiff's Exhibit 50 that 2 Plaintiffs' counsel previously asked you questions 3 about. And can you please read the date of this 4 document? 5 A. The date of the document is December 22, 6 1975. 7 Q. And on the second page of the letter, who 8 sent the document to Monsanto? 9 A. Russell E. Train, Administrator, EPA. 10 Q. And did this letter lead to a meeting between 11 EPA, Monsanto, and the transformer and capacitor 12 manufacturers? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And was that meeting in early 1976? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And if you'll look at Exhibit M-74, can you 17 please identify that document for the record? 18 A. This is a letter signed by Mike Petrilli, 19 Industry Sales Specialist, Functional Products, dated 20 January 26th, 1976. 21 Q. And could you please read the first sentence? 22 A. "Enclosed is a copy of the remarks made by 23 Jack Fitzgerald, our Managing Director, to the EPA 24 meeting on January 14, 1976. This statement is 25 prepared as a press release and issued to the media on www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI380 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 438 1 January 22, 1976. A copy of that press release is 2 attached T? 3 Q. And then if you could turn to the next 4 document , M-74.1, is that the distribution list for 5 this January 26th, 1976, letter? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Could you please turn to Exhibit M-74.2, and 8 identify that for the record? 9 MR. OAAS: What was that exhibit number? 10 MS. RUTTER: M-74.2. It's under the M-74 11 tab. There you have it. 12 A. I have it. 13 Q. Can you identify that document for the 14 record, please? 15 A. Yes. It's a -- It's a news release developed 16 by Dan R . Bishop of Monsanto Industrial Chemicals 17 Company, dated January 26th, 1976. 18 Q. You know Mr. Bishop? 19 A. I knew him, yes. I know him. 20 Q. You knew him at the time? 21 A. Uh-huh. 22 Q. And you saw this press release -23 A. Yes. 24 Q. -- at or near the time to its release? 25 A. Yes. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI381 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 439 1 Q. Could you please -- 2 MR. SHAW: Counsel, I beg your pardon. 3 We're about ready to lose testimony. 4 MS. RUTTER: Okay. 5 MR. SHAW: This will end tape number three 6 in the continued deposition of William Papageorge. We 7 are off the record at 12:47 p.m. 8 (Whereupon, there was a lunch recess.) 9 MR. SHAW: We are back on the record at 10 1:27 p.m. This will begin tape number four in the 11 continued deposition of William Papageorge. 12 BY MS. RUTTER: 13 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Papageorge. 14 A. Good afternoon. 15 Q. We're back from a short break. The tape -- 16 The video tape ran out in the middle of our discussion 17 of the press release dated January 26th, 1976, 18 Exhibit M-74.2, that you had kindly identified for the 19 record. Could you please turn to the middle paragraph 20 and read the paragraph into the record? Or actually 21 let's read the first two paragraphs into the record. 22 A. The first two? 23 Q. The first two. 24 MR. OAAS: I'm going to object to the use 25 of this exhibit on relevancy. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI382 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 440 1 A. "Monsanto Company today announced that it has 2 informed its U.S. capacitor and transformer industry 3 customers and the U.S. Environment Protection Agency 4 that it intends to eventually phase out the production 5 of polychlorinated biphenyl (PCB) dielectric 6 insulating fluids. Dielectric fluids are 7 non-conductors of direct electrical current and are 8 necessary ingredients in most power generating 9 equipment. 10 In making the announcement, F. J. 11 Fitzgerald, a corporate vice president and managing 12 director of Monsanto Industrial Chemicals Company, 13 said it is too early to put an exact timetable on the 14 phase-out but that it would be in a planned and 15 orderly manner. Mr. Fitzgerald added, 'As soon as we 16 are satisfied that the electrical power supply 17 industry's needs for usable, acceptable alternative 18 dielectric fluids have been met, by whomever, Monsanto 19 will voluntarily shut down its own PCB manufacturing 20 unit.'" 21 Q. Mr. Papageorge, when Monsanto ceased the 22 manufacture and sale of PCBs in 1977, were there any 23 laws that required them to do so at that time? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Could you please turn to the very first www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI383 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 441 1 exhibit in the very first notebook and could you 2 identify that memo for the record, please? 3 A. This exhibit is dated May 1982 entitled "PCB 4 Production History Fact Sheet". 5 Q. And it's on Monsanto letterhead? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And if you'll turn to the last page of the 8 Exhibit M-l, who is the contact in relation to this 9 fact sheet? 10 A. Larry O'Neill, Environmental Communications 11 Manager, Monsanto Company. 12 Q. Could you please turn to page two of the memo 13 and look at the paragraph near the top that says "1970 14 to '72"? 15 A. I see it. 16 Q. Could you please read that into the record? 17 From 1970 to 1972. 18 MR. OAAS: Objection. 19 A. "Monsanto" -- 20 MR. OAAS: Just object to the form of the 21 question as to foundation. 22 A. "Monsanto phased out sales of PCBs for 'open 23 applications' that could lead to environmental 24 releases . These uses, which reduced the company's PCB 25 sales by 64 percent, included heat-transfer fluids. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI384 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 442 1 hydraulic fluids, plasticizer applications, and 2 miscellaneous uses." 3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Papageorge. And in May 1982, 4 when this PCB Production History Fact Sheet was 5 created, you were an employee of Monsanto Company at 6 that time; were you not? 7 A. What date is that? May? 8 Q. May '82. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And in 1970 to 1972, the facts that you just 11 read into the record, you were intimately involved 12 with that phase-out; were you not? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. While we're in this notebook, let's look 15 quickly at Exhibit M-30, please. It's towards the 16 back. Could you please identify for the record 17 Exhibit M-30 by the author, the date and the general 18 subject matter of the publication? Or of the letter, 19 excuse me. 2 0 A. The author is Elmer P. Wheeler, Manager, 21 Environmental Health, with Monsanto Company, and the 22 date is March 3rd, 1969. 23 Q. And what was the gist of what Mr. Wheeler was 24 communicating in this letter? 25 A. This is in response to an article that www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI385 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 443 1 appeared in the "San Francisco Chronicle," which 2 described some research work done by Dr. Robert 3 Risebrough of the University of California. 4 Q. What category of customers was this letter 5 sent to? 6 A. It would have to be -- It had to be the uses 7 that lead to open exposure to the environment. 8 Q. I believe we have the -- we have the actual 9 customer distribution list in another notebook, but 10 regardless of the audience, it was -- was this a 11 letter dated March 3rd, 1969, to Monsanto customers 12 advising them of the developing PCB issue? 13 MR. OAAS: Objection. 14 A. Yes. 15 MR. OAAS: Objection as to foundation. 16 Q. And, Mr. Papageorge, when you started in your 17 job as Manager of Environmental Control on 18 January 2nd, 1970, at Monsanto headquarters, is this 19 letter, March 3rd, 1969, Exhibit M-30, a letter that 20 you saw shortly after you started your new job? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And you knew Mr. Elmer Wheeler, the author of 23 the letter, personally? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Do you know if Mr. Wheeler is living or dead? www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI386 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 444 1 A. I think he's deceased. 2 Q. What about Dr. Robert Emmet Kelly? 3 A. Oh, he's deceased, yes. 4 Q. Let's look at Exhibit M-36 in the same 5 notebook, please. Could you please just read the top 6 portion of the memo into the record? 7 A. Are you referring to the handwritten notes 8 or -- 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. -- the typed? 11 Q. The handwritten -- Both the handwritten notes 12 and the typed part that says "Rough Draft". 13 A. The notes say, "Notes from trip of European 14 trip, dictated by R. E. Keller". It's a rough draft 15 dated June 12, '69. 16 Q. And, again. Dr. Keller was an analytical 17 chemist with Monsanto? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Dr. Tucker, Dr. Scott Tucker, worked for 20 Dr. Keller? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And if you would please turn to page 34754. 23 It's the marking at the bottom, ends in 754. 24 A. I have it. 25 Q. Do you see the marking halfway down that says www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI387 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 445 1 "May 5th"? 2 A. I do. 3 Q. And can you tell me, please, what the first 4 sentence of that entry indicates that Messrs. Keller, 5 Wheeler , and Digby of Monsanto and Richard of Monsanto 6 were doing on May 5th of 1970? I'm sorry. Of 1969. 7 A. They were meeting with Dr. Widmark, the 8 Swedish scientist. 9 Q. So this was another meeting between Monsanto 10 and the Swedish scientist who originally made the 11 announcement of biphenols or biphenyls in the 12 environment? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You yourself personally met with Mr. Widmark 15 and -- or Dr. Widmark in 1970, Mr. Papageorge? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Could you please turn to the page labeled 18 34757? It says "10" at the top. 19 A. I have it. 20 Q. And do you see the sentence that says "when 21 asked what he would do"? 22 A. I see it. 23 MR. OAAS: Wait. Can you identify where 24 you're at? 25 MS. RUTTER: Yes. I'm on page 10 in the www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI388 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 446 1 document. I'm on Bates label MONS 34757. 2 MR. OAAS: I'm on the page, but what line 3 are you on? 4 MS. RUTTER: It's like the second line 5 from the top. "When asked what he would do..." 6 MR. OAAS: Okay. 7 Q. Could you please read that sentence and then 8 the three points after that sentence into the record, 9 Mr. Papageorge? 10 A. "When asked what he would do, if he were in a 11 manufacturer's position involving PCBs, Widmark 12 commented as follows: One, restrict PCBs to closed 13 systems. Two, find a substitute for PCB. Three, come 14 up with a positive analytical data so that 15 biologists/ecologists cannot misuse it." 16 Q. And with respect to points one and three, did 17 Monsanto, in fact, do both of those items? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And withrespect toitem two,where it was 20 possible to find a substitute for PCBs that didn't 21 create additional issues or problems, did Monsanto do 22 that? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. But insome instances Monsantowas unable to 25 find a substitute? www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI389 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 447 1 A. That's true. 2 Q. And it was the manufacturers of the 3 capacitors and the transformers who took the lead in 4 trying to develop the substitute products that met 5 their particular industry needs? 6 MR. OAAS: Object to the form of the 7 question. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Let's turn toExhibit M-51 in the next 10 notebook, please. That's the bigger notebook. 11 Notebook B. 12 A. What number was that again? 13 Q. 51. 14 A. 51. I have it. 15 Q. Mr. Papageorge, at some point in time, did 16 Monsanto start applying environmental warning labels 17 to the containers of PCBs that it was selling? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And doesthis memorefresh your recollection 20 about the time period when the process of developing 21 that environmental warning label began? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And isthis-- Could you please identify 24 Exhibit M-51 for the record, the author, the 25 recipients and the date? www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI390 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 448 1 A. I am the author, and the recipients were 2 members of Monsanto's Research Department, they were 3 members of the -- Monsanto's Medical Department, and 4 Monsanto's Marketing Department. 5 Q. And the date of this memo that you prepared 6 is? 7 A. April 13, 1970. 8 Q. And that's your signature that appears on 9 this memo? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And were you in this memo proposing an 12 environmental stick-on label before the permanent 13 labels could be printed? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And could you pleaseread into the record 16 what the environmental stick-on label that was being 17 developed in April of 1970 was going to say? 18 A. "Thisproduct containspolychlorinated 19 biphenyls, which some studies have shown to be an 20 environmental contaminant. Care should be taken to 21 prevent any loss into the environment through spills, 22 leakage, disposal, evaporation or otherwise." 23 Q. To speed things up here, we're not going to 24 go through every document under tab 51, but can you 25 please find the document that ends in 8633? And it's www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI391 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 449 1 got a tab on it that's 51.4. And for the record, to 2 help you find it, it's an Aroclor 1232 label. I think 3 you're there. It's the document in front of that one. 4 Mr. Papageorge, can you tell us whether 5 Exhibit M-51.4 off to the left-hand side of that 6 label, does that show the environmental stick-on label 7 that was developed? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And that was intended to be used -- How was 10 that label intended to be used? 11 A. To be put on labels already affixed to a 12 container, and this was additional information that 13 was added. 14 Q. And so if you could turn -- Can you please 15 find the Aroclor 1254 label that bears Bates label 16 8635? Can you tell us, please, whether the "Caution 17 Contains Chlorinated Hydrocarbons"? Do you see where 18 I am? All right. The "Caution - Contains Chlorinated 19 Hydrocarbons" portion of this label, for how many 20 years had Monsanto been printing labels that had that 21 particular warning or safe handling information on it? 22 A. Ooh, that I don't know. It's - 23 Q. That -- That was under the auspices of 24 Dr. Kelly in the Medical Department? 25 A. Yes. Back when it was originated, and it's www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI392 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 450 1 been on for so long that it -- I don't know when it 2 started. 3 Q. That's what I was trying to elicit. It was a 4 long-standing -- 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. -- caution that was on Monsanto's -7 A. Oh, yes. 8 Q. -- Aroclor labels? 9 A. Uh-huh. 10 Q. And members of Monsanto' s Medical Department 11 likely would have documents or testimony about when 12 that label was first established? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. In fact, I think Plaintiffs' counsel himself 15 may have used an exhibit when he questioned you that 16 was back in the 1930s. 17 But, in any event, the environmental 18 warning label that is shown on the Aroclor 1254 label 19 that's Bates labeled ending 8635, that was being newly 20 developed and added in the April/May 1970 time period? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Could you please turn to Exhibit M-71, 23 Mr. Papageorge? 24 A. I see it. 25 Q. And what's the date of the memo, and what www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI393 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 451 1 does it state on its face as the source of information 2 in the memo? 3 A. The date is October 13, 1976. It's a memo to 4 the file by Mr. G. F. Barton. 5 Q. And could you please read the section that 6 says "information obtained"? 7 A. "Information obtained from Bill Papageorge 8 and David Wood, October 5, 1976." 9 Q. Could you please read the next-to-last 10 sentence of the memo, the one that starts "PCBs were 11 produced"? 12 A. "PCBs were produced at the Anniston plant 13 from 1929 to April 1972." 14 Q. And did Monsanto stop producing PCBs at 15 Anniston in 1972 because it had ceased PCB sales to 16 open uses and no longer had the need of the facility? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Let's turn to M-69. You'll need to go back a 19 couple of spaces. This was the Quail Roost Conference 20 that we were discussing, Mr. Papageorge, where you 21 remembered attendees but not how many. Can you please 22 identify for the record Exhibit M-69, the date and 23 what it purports to be? 24 A. The dates are December 20-21, 1971. It's a 25 list of attendees to a PCB meeting at Quail Roost www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI394 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 452 1 Conference Center. 2 Q. And you are one of the attendees? 3 A. I attended, but I'm looking for a listing. 4 Q. It's alphabetical. You're on page 8669. 5 A. I see it, yes. Uh-huh. 6 Q. And just by looking at the first entry on the 7 first page, "Los Angeles Times," the press attended 8 this meeting -9 A. Yes. 10 Q. -- at Quail Roost? Now, the subject matter 11 of this meeting was what generally? 12 A. Generally, it's an overall review of the PCB 13 issue as it existed in 1971, the end of '71. 14 Q. And this attendance list shows, does it not. 15 a large number of governmental agencies and state and 16 federal research institutes in attendance? 17 A. Yes. Yes. 18 Q. I'm going to quickly label a Notebook C, but 19 everyone will be happy to learn that I'm not going to 20 use very many of the documents in it. 21 MS. RUTTER: Miss Russo, do you know where 22 our additional copies of this notebook are? 23 And, Miss Olliges, could you please mark 24 this as Papageorge Notebook C since, as I said before, 25 I markec one notebook out of sequence. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI395 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 453 1 MR. OAAS: We won't hold it against you. 2 MS. RUTTER: Thank you. 3 (Reporter marked Defendant's Exhibit 4 Notebook C for identification.) 5 Q. Mr. Papageorge, the first document in this 6 notebook that I want to call your attention to is 7 M-79, and it is under the tab that says "1970" on it. 8 Oh, sorry. We switched notebooks on you here. Don't 9 put that one away yet. 10 Mr. Papageorge, could you please identify 11 the document that's been labeled M-79.3 in this 12 Notebook C? 13 A. It's a -- It's a letter with a Montana State 14 University heading signed by Frederick A. Beland, 15 dated 27th of March, 1970, and addressed to Monsanto 16 Chemical Company, Research & Engineering Division, in 17 Dayton, Ohio. 18 Q. And could you please read just the first 19 sentence of that letter into the record? 20 A. "I plan" -21 MR. OAAS: Object to the form of the 22 question 23 A. -- "to begin electron capture gas 24 chromatographic studies on polychlorinated biphenyls 25 and would appreciate it if you would provide me with www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI396 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 454 1 samples of Aroclor 1254 and 62." 2 Q. And then could you please turn to the next 3 document in sequence, which ends in Bates label 8712 4 and identify that for the record? 5 A. This is a letter dated April 27, 1970, 6 addressed to Professor Frederick A. Beland of Montana 7 State University, Department of Chemistry, Bozeman, 8 Montana, 59715. 9 Q. And - 10 A. Signed by Robert W. Keller. 11 Q. And I'm sorry. The date of the letter is? 12 A. April 27, 1970. 13 Q. And you personally knew Dr. Keller? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And you were employed by Monsanto at the time 16 this letter was prepared? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Could you please read into the record the 19 first sentence, the first two sentences of 20 Dr. Keller's response? 21 A. "Your March 27 letter requesting samples of 22 Aroclor 1254 and 1262 have been forwarded to my 23 attention. We are sending samples of Aroclor 1254, 24 1260, and 1262 representative of our current 25 production material" -- www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI397 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 455 1 Q. And if you could read -- 2 A. May -3 Q. -- just the next sentence. 4 A. I'm sorry. "...under separate cover to your 5 attention." 6 Q. Oh, and then the next sentence, please. And 7 I'm sorry. I cut you off. 8 A. "Also being sent under separate cover are 20 9 milligram amounts of the 4-, 2.2-, 2.3-, 2.4-, 2.5, 10 3.3- and 4.4 isomers." 11 Q. Sounds like analytical chemists talking to 12 each other? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And, now, could you please turn to 15 Exhibit M-81? It's under 1972 tab. 16 A. I have M-81. 17 Q. And could you please identify this letter for 18 the record, Mr. Papageorge? 19 A. It's a letter dated March 6th of 1972 20 addressed to a Dr. James J. Manion, Chairman of the 21 Science Division of Carroll College, Helena, Montana, 22 59601, and signed by me. 23 Q. And could you read the first para -- the 24 first two paragraphs of that letter into the record? 25 A. "I am forwarding under separate cover the www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI398 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 456 1 sample of Aroclor 1254 you requested in your letter 2 dated March 3. There is no charge for this material. 3 If I can be of further service, please let me know." 4 Q. And is Exhibit M-81 a letter that you, in 5 fact, prepared and sent to Dr. James J. Manion at 6 Carroll College in Helena, Montana, on or about the 7 date it bears, March 6th, 1972? 8 A. Yes. 9 MS. RUTTER: Miss Russo, I'm to this 10 folder now if you have -- I'm not going to use all of 11 it, so I'll just pass them on one at a time. 12 Q. I'm handing you an exhibit that's been 13 premarked as M-149, and Miss Russo is providing a copy 14 to Plaintiffs' counsel. Mr. Papageorge, can you 15 please identify Exhibit 149? 16 A. Exhibit 149 is a page out of "Time Magazine"a 17 of October 11, 1971. 18 Q. And does it show you on the right-hand side 19 as an individual to whom a copy of this "Time 20 Magazine" article was distributed? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Do yourecall seeing this "Time Magazine" 23 article? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. In aboutOctober of1971? www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI399 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 457 1 A. Yes. Uh-huh. 2 Q. Could you please read the title of the 3 article? 4 MR. OAAS: I'm just going to object to the 5 form of any questions about this article. 6 A. "The Menace of PCB". 7 Q. And if you could look down to about -- I 8 won't count sentences. It's close to the heading. Do 9 you see where it says "until recently"? 10 A. I see it. 11 Q. Could you read that sentence into the record. 12 please? 13 A. "Until recently, PCBs were used in industry 14 in many ways, for instance, as softeners in plastics. 15 paints and rubber, as additives in printing inks and 16 papers." 17 Q. That's enough because we're trying to make 18 good time. I won't have you read the whole article. 19 Mr. Papageorge, I'm going to hand you what 20 I've had marked as Exhibit 148, and Miss Russo will 21 provide a copy to Plaintiffs' counsel, and I will also 22 hand you a copy of Plaintiff's Exhibit 60, which is a 23 document that Plaintiffs' counsel discussed with you 24 during your earlier deposition in this case. 25 First of all, Mr. Papageorge, could you www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMQN001400 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 458 1 please describe what this brochure appears to be? 2 MR. OAAS: What record are you referring 3 to? 4 MS. RUTTER: I'm sorry. Exhibit M-148. 5 Thank you. 6 A. This is a-- I'm going to call it a Technical 7 Bulletin describing the Aroclor compounds that 8 Monsanto made and marketed and describes 9 characteristics of these materials and their possible 10 applications. 11 Q. Could you please turn to the page that's 12 Bates labeled DSW 263711? It looks like this? 13 A. I have it. 14 Q. And what's the title on this page? 15 A. "Industrial Applications of the Aroclors". 16 Q. Now, could you please turn to the very end 17 page and tell me what date appears in the bottom 18 left-hand corner? I'm actually looking at this. It 19 looks like you've got something extra clipped on 20 there. The DSW label is 3748. There, you have it. 21 A. I have it. 22 Q. Do you see where it appears to say 53? 23 A. Oh, yes. Off to the left. Okay. 24 Q. That indicates that it's a 1953 bulletin? 25 A. Correct. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001401 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 459 1 Q. Now, could you please turn to the page that's 2 labeled DSW-263731? It's in the middle of the 3 bulletin or close to the end of it. And could you 4 please confirm that the page labeled "Aroclors in 5 Paint, Varnish and Lacquer Formulations" that's Bates 6 labeled DSW-263731 in the middle of M-148 is the same 7 page as the beginning page that Plaintiffs' counsel 8 showed you during your deposition in Plaintiff's 9 Exhibit 60? 10 A. Yes, it is. 11 Q. It even has the same Bates label on it; is 12 that correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. But the document I've shown you is an entire 15 brochure, not just excerpts from it; is that correct? 16 A. That is correct. 17 MR. OAAS: We would have no objection to 18 the entire brochure being admitted into evidence at 19 trial. 20 MS. RUTTER: I now need M-155. We need a 21 clip or something. I just found a paper clip, 22 Miss Russo. That will -- Oh, good. That's even 23 better. Thank you so much. 24 BY MS. RUTTER: 25 Q. Mr. Papageorge, can you please identify www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI402 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 460 1 Exhibit 155 for the record? 2 A. This is a document with Monsanto letterhead 3 signed by D. K. Mitchell, dated September 28, 1970, 4 and addressed to B. T. Dean. 5 Q. And can you please read that short 6 three-sentence paragraph that's in the middle of page 7 one? 8 A. I do. 9 Q. Could you please read it out loud? 10 A. "The following compilation lists all analyses 11 on PCB presently in our files. The data on page one 12 through six are listed in chronological order. The 13 remaining pages are analyses by the Bureau of 14 Commercial Fisheries and are so presented as 15 received." 16 Q. What is the Bureau of Commercial Fisheries, 17 or what was it at that time? 18 A. I forget the official name for them. It has 19 to do with -- 20 Q. Was it a federal agency in your 21 unders tanding? 22 A. It was a federal agency with commercial 23 activity. 24 Q. I'd like to hand you Exhibit -- Plaintiff's 25 Exhibit 31, which is a portion of this Exhibit 155 www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001403 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 461 1 that Plaintiffs' counsel asked you questions about. 2 Can you please confirm that Plaintiff's Exhibit 31 has 3 the first six pages, but not the remaining pages that 4 are referred to in the cover memo? 5 MR. OAAS: Counsel for Plaintiffs would 6 also stipulate that the entire exhibit WBP M-155 can 7 be admitted at the trial of this case. 8 MS. RUTTER: Thank you. 9 Q. Mr. Papageorge, Plaintiffs' counsel has 10 stipulated that we can use the complete Exhibit M-155 11 at trial - 12 A. Oh! 13 Q. -- rather than the truncated exhibit, 14 Plaintiff's 31. 15 Looking at M-155, can you please tell us 16 whether the last few pages of that document -- who did 17 the testing that's reflected in those pages? Was it 18 Monsanto, or was it the Federal Bureau of Commercial 19 Fisheries? 20 A. It was the Federal Bureau of Commercial 21 Fisheries. 22 Q. And does the document reflect that on 23 occasion Monsanto and the federal bureaus were sharing 24 split samples? 25 A. Yes. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI404 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 462 1 Q. And, generally speaking, the Federal Bureau 2 of Commercial Fisheries was testing for PCBs in fish, 3 water, and sediment? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And Monsanto and the Federal Bureau of 6 Commercial Fisheries appeared to be sharing that data 7 in 1969 and 1970? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. I hand you Plaintiff's Exhibit 61, 10 Mr. Papageorge. This is a Parlon brochure that 11 Plaintiffs' counsel asked you a number of questions 12 about. Do you recall at least generally those 13 questions? 14 A. I do. 15 Q. If you'd look at the first page, there's a 16 section in here about use of Parlon paint in food 17 processing. I'm on the page before here. 18 A. Oh! 19 Q. Do you see where it refers to that in the 20 table of contents? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And you recall Plaintiffs' counsel asking you 23 questions about use of Parlon in the food processing 24 industries? 25 A. I do. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001405 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 463 1 Q. Could you please turn to the very last page 2 of this document? 3 A. Of that section? 4 Q. No. Of the -- The very last page of the 5 document 6 A. Of the document. 7 Q. The page where you usually find the dates. 8 And if you look right here, Mr. Papageorge, can you 9 please tell me the date of that document? 10 A. 1978. 11 Q. Right. Now, by 1978, Mr. Papageorge, was 12 Monsanto selling PCBs for use in any type of 13 plasticizer application? 14 A. No. 15 Q. In fact, in 1978, was Monsanto out of the PCB 16 business period? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. So whatever Hercules was promoting with this 19 Parlon 1978 brochure, it couldn't have been PCBs? 20 MR. OAAS: I object to the form of the 21 question 22 A. That is true. 23 Q. I'd now like to turn to Exhibit 61, which is 24 in Notebook B, and can you please identify that memo. 25 the author, the recipient and the date? www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI406 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 464 1 A. Monsanto letterhead. Author is Tom C. Ford. 2 The date August 27, 1970, and it's addressed to 3 Mr. John Mason. 4 Q. It has a number of CCs; does it not? 5 A. I'm sorry? 6 Q. It has a number of CC's; does it not? Carbon 7 copies. 8 A. Oh! Oh, up here. I'm sorry. You're right. 9 There are carbon copies issued. 10 Q. And does your name appear as one of the 11 people copied? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Do you recall receiving this memo? 14 A. Yes, I do. 15 Q. And do you recall the attachment to this 16 memo, which is the next document in the notebook? 17 MR. OAAS: I'm going to object to the form 18 of that question. 19 A. The attachment? 20 Q. Your notebook is missing a copy, so -- Oh, my 21 notebook has two, so -22 MR. OAAS: I don't have a copy, either. 23 MS. RUTTER: Mr. Papageorge and I will 24 share a copy. 25 Q. Mr. Papageorge, can you please identify the www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001407 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 465 1 document that's currently in front of you for the 2 record? 3 MR. OAAS: Object to the form of the 4 question. 5 A. Well, this is a -- the letterhead 6 Environmental Defense Fund. It's dated August 24, 7 1970. It's addressed to Mr. Pierre Wilkins of 8 Monsanto Company, and it's signed by Roderick Cameron, 9 Executive Director of the Environmental Defense Fund. 10 Q. And, Mr. Papageorge, is that memo that you're 11 holding Bates labeled ending 8641, did you receive 12 that Environmental Defense Fund letter from Mr. Tom C. 13 Ford on or about August 27th, 1970, in the ordinary 14 course of your duties for Monsanto at that time? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And did you read the letter from the 17 Environmental Defense Fund to Monsanto dated 18 August 24th, 1970, on or about that date? 19 A. I did. 20 Q. Could you please read the second paragraph of 21 the Environmental Defense Fund letter to Monsanto into 2 2 the record? 23 MR. OAAS: Object to the form of the 24 question. 25 A. "At ADF, we have been most impressed by www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001408 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 466 1 Monsanto's willingness to be responsible where the 2 environment is concerned. We have closely watched the 3 development of information concerning the 4 environmental impact of Monsanto's product, 5 polychlorinated biphenyls (PCB). What impressed us 6 most was Monsanto's attitude and, finally, its action 7 to lessen the environmental degradation caused by its 8 product. We continue to watch our PCB cleanup program 9 to be sure that your action is as good as your word, 10 but in the meantime, we are impressed by your 11 sensitivity and responsibility. Indeed, in many 12 informal conversations, we have signaled (sic.) out 13 your company as being one capable of acting on its own 14 long-term interest and that of society rather than its 15 short-term economic interest. We have great respect 16 for you." 17 MS. RUTTER: Thank you, Mr. Papageorge. 18 Counsel, that concludes my questioning for 19 now except I want to do some document foundational 20 authentication matters with Mr. Papageorge. Those are 21 purely ministerial, and I would invite you to go ahead 22 and do any substantive questioning you ask of the 23 witness with the understanding that I'm reserving my 24 right to do some foundational authentication after 25 that's done. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001409 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 467 1 MR. OAAS: All right. I'll give you a 2 copy of these. 3 (Plaintiff's Exhibits 70 through 75 were 4 marked for identification.) 5 EXAMINATION 6 QUESTIONS BY MR. OAAS: 7 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Papageorge. 8 A. Good afternoon. 9 Q. You recall me from about a year ago? 10 A. Yes, sir, I do. 11 Q. I have some questions for you. 12 A. All right. 13 Q. And I'm going to hand you a stack of 14 documents, the top one that I've marked as Plaintiff's 15 Exhibit 70, because I'm going to be directing your 16 attention to those as we go along, please. 17 By the way, Mr. Papageorge, it's my 18 understanding at least at the last deposition you were 19 appearing in your individual capacity and not as a 20 representative of Pharmacia; is that correct? 21 MS. RUTTER: That's correct. He's here as 22 William B. Papageorge. 23 Q. Okay. Are you being paid for your time spent 24 at this deposition, Mr. Papageorge? 25 A. I'm sorry. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001410 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 468 1 Q. I'm sorry. 2 MS. RUTTER: He was reading documents. 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q. Are you being paid for your time to attend 5 this deposition? 6 A. No. No. Not under oath, uh-uh. 7 Q. Were you paid to do anything for any type of 8 work associated with this deposition? 9 A. If I have -- If someone wants to consult with 10 me about some past recollections, some documents and 11 all, yeah. 12 Q. And did you do that kind of work in reference 13 to this case? 14 A. Some of it, yes. 15 Q. And specifically in reference to your 16 deposition? 17 A. I'm sorry. 18 Q. And specifically in reference to your 19 deposition, both last year and today? 20 A. Some of it, but not all of it. 21 Q. Okay. And you were paid for that work? You 22 were paid for that work? 23 A. Yeah. 24 Q. Okay. And who were you paid by? 25 A. I'm sorry. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001411 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 469 1 Q. And who were you paid by? 2 A. All I know is I got a note from Mrs. -- Miss 3 Rutter . I don't know who paid it. 4 Q. Okay. And were you paid by check? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Okay. And was it a check from this law firm. 7 Husch & Eppenberger? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And do you recall about how much you were 10 paid? 11 A. Yes. It was less than 4,000. About 3,000, 12 something in there. 13 Q. Okay. And that was for work you did in 14 preparation for your deposition last year and today or 15 just today? 16 A. No. Last year, what was behind me. 17 Q. Okay. All right. And was that based on an 18 hourly rate, or did they just write you out a check 19 for $4 ,000, or how was that arrived at? 20 A. It's an hourly rate. 21 Q. Okay. And what's your hourly rate? 22 A. $220. 23 Q. And they paid you about $4,000; is that 24 right? 25 A. As I remember, yes. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001412 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 470 1 Q. Okay. And do you expect to be paid any more 2 for your preparation work for this deposition? 3 A. I expect some of it, yeah, but I don't know 4 which parts. 5 Q. Okay. Do you know how much time? Can you 6 give an estimate of how much time you spent in 7 consultation and preparation for this deposition? 8 A. Not yet, no. I haven't added it up. 9 Q. Okay. Can you give me an estimate? 10 A. It'd be a wild one. I -- I know it was a 11 short day. It's less than eight hours -- 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. -- is all I really... 14 Q. All right. Now, do you hold yourself out as 15 a consultant on PCB matters today, Mr. Papageorge? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And have you testified at all in any 18 PCB-related matters since our last deposition? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Now, how familiar are you with what I'm going 21 to call the Anniston PCB cases? Do you know what I 22 mean by that reference? 23 A. I think I do. I can't -- I can't -- I'm not 24 in a position to know of all the Anniston PCB cases. 25 Q. How many of them are there to your knowledge? www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001413 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 471 1 A. I don' t know. 2 Q. How many were you involved in as a witness? 3 A. About three of them. 4 Q. Okay. Let's look at Exhibit 70 right on top 5 there, Mr. Papageorge. Do you see where I'm referring 6 to? 7 A. I have it. 8 Q. Would you take a minute and look -- 9 MS. RUTTER: Excuse me. For some reason 10 that's not in my stack. 11 MR. OAAS: Yeah. 12 MS. RUTTER: It starts -- 13 MR. OAAS: Right there. 14 MS. RUTTER: -- 17. 15 MR. OAAS: Number one, that's No. 70. 16 Okay. I know it doesn't have -- I didn't copy the 17 sticker. 18 MS. RUTTER: Oh, okay. 19 MR. OAAS: Exhibit 17 refers to a prior 20 deposition number. I've remarked it as Exhibit 70 for 21 this deposition . You see what he's got? 22 MS. RUTTER: All right. I see it. 23 MR. OAAS: Is that okay with you? 24 MS. RUTTER: Yes. 25 MR. OAAS: All right. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001414 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 472 1 MS. RUTTER: I was just confused because 2 my exhibit said something different than -3 MR. OAAS: All right. 4 MS. RUTTER: -- the number you were 5 saying. 6 MR. OAAS: Okay. Are you satisfied we're 7 all looking at the same piece of paper? 8 MS. RUTTER: Could I see it for a minute, 9 Mr. Papageorge? 10 THE WITNESS: Sure. 11 MR. SHAW: Five minutes of tape remaining. 12 MS. RUTTER: Yes. 13 BY MR. OAAS: 14 Q. Do you know what that is, Mr. Papageorge? 15 A. I'm going to call this an order form. 16 Q. Okay. I imagine you saw quite a few of those 17 in your days as Plant Manager at Anniston? 18 A. Quite a few. I never kept score, but... 19 Q. You recognized -- 20 A. They're familiar. That's a typical normal 21 form. 22 Q. Okay. Now, it appears to be, and correct me 23 if I'm wrong, that this is an order by a customer for 24 Aroclor 1254. 25 A. That's what it says, yes. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001415 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 473 1 Q. Okay. And the customer appears to be 2 identified as -- under the -- under the typed-on words 3 on the left-hand column, "ship to" category, Columbia 4 Paint Company, PO Box 1704, Helena, Montana? 5 MS. RUTTER: Objection to the form of the 6 question. 7 Q. Do you see where I'm referring to, sir? 8 A. I see it, but you used the word "customer". 9 Q. Okay. That's the wrong description; that's 10 the wrong term to use? 11 A. The way I see it. Great Western is the 12 customer, and Columbia is the shipping destination. 13 Q. Okay. All right. And this was an order for 14 looks like 60 pounds of Aroclor 1254? 15 A. It's a 50-pound can, a big bucketful. 16 Q. Okay. And they paid a little over $30 for 17 that? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And the price per pound is listed at roughly 20 50 -- 50 cents a pound, 52 cents a pound. Would that 21 be right? 22 A. That's what it says. 23 Q. And to your knowledge, was that the average 24 price per pound for Aroclor 1254 in the year 1970? 25 A. When you use the word "average," I don't know www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001416 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 474 1 it's an average. 2 Q. How about was that a representative price? 3 A. Representative for the five-gallon can. It 4 may not represent the tank carful or the barrelful. 5 Q. Okay. I understand. The large orders 6 might -- might have a lesser price? 7 A. Typically, yes. 8 Q. And would that same price structure -- And 9 what I'm referring to, if this five-pound bucketful 10 had been ordered in 1969, would the price be roughly 11 50 cents a pound? 12 A. All right. Roughly. 13 Q. You'd agree with that? 14 A. Uh-huh. 15 Q. Okay. Now, as I understand it, this form -- 16 You see it has -- it has Monsanto on the top of the 17 form? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. So this is a Monsanto order form? 20 A. Well, it's a form filled out by someone in 21 Monsanto who got a message over the telephone or by 22 mail -23 Q. Okay. 24 A. -- to place this order. 25 Q. Okay. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001417 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 475 1 A. And this is the form used by Monsanto's 2 system to go to the particular location in Monsanto 3 that has that in stock and is ready to ship it. 4 Q. Okay. So it appears to me, and correct me if 5 I'm wrong, that apparently Columbia Paint Company 6 wanted to purchase one 60-pound drum of Aroclor 1254; 7 correct? 8 A. Correct. 9 MR. BROWN: I'm going to object to the 10 form of this question. 11 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry. Who's this? 12 MS. RUTTER: That's Mr. Brown. 13 Q. Anyway, they were the customer? 14 MS. RUTTER: Objection. Asked and 15 answered . Object to the form of the question. 16 A. I'm sorry. Who was the -- 17 Q. They were the customer? 18 A. Who's "they"? 19 Q. Columbia Paint Company. 20 MR. BROWN: Same objection. This is 21 Steve. 22 A. I -- I don't -- 23 Q. Why don't you just walk me through how 24 this -- how this order would have been processed at 25 Monsanto , Mr. Papageorge. That's all I'm trying to www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001418 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 476 1 get to. 2 MR. SHAW: Excuse me, counsel. We need to 3 change the tape. 4 MR. OAAS: Okay. I'm sorry. 5 MR. SHAW: This will end tape number four 6 in the deposition of William Papageorge. We are off 7 the record at 2:26 p.m. 8 (Whereupon, an off-the-record discussion 9 was held.) 10 MR. SHAW: We are back on the record at 11 2:28 p.m. This will begin tape number five in the 12 continued deposition of William Papageorge . 13 MR. OAAS: Thank you. 14 BY MR. OAAS: 15 Q. Mr. Papageorge, just let me ask my question 16 again, and I'm just -- It's a real simple question. 17 If you could just walk me through how this order would 18 have been received and processed at Monsanto. 19 A. Well, someone in Monsanto got either a 20 telephone call or by mail a request for this 21 particular product in this particular amount to be 22 shipped to the Columbia Paint Company, shipped to. 23 The customer is the one that pays the price for it, so 24 it's Great Western Chemical. It's the one that's 25 marked "sold to". www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001419 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 477 1 Q. I see that. Okay. I'm with you. 2 A. So it is shipped to Columbia Paint from 3 Monsanto's Sauget, Illinois, plant, that involved just 4 one shipping bill. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. One big piece of transportation. It doesn't 7 ship it to Spokane, Washington, and from there to 8 Helena, Montana. 9 Q. All right. 10 A. Double shipment. It avoids that second 11 shipping charge. 12 Q. Would the -- So the PCB referenced in this -- 13 on this exhibit would have been shipped directly from 14 the manufacturing plant at Sauget, Illinois, to 15 Helena, Montana? 16 A. Correct. 17 MR. BROWN: I object to the form of the 18 question. This is Steve Brown. 19 Q. And this document indicates that this is a 20 Monsanto record, so I'm assuming that somebody in 21 Monsanto knew that Columbia Paint Company had 22 purchased Aroclor 1254 on or about May 21st, 1970, as 23 indicated by this -- by this order form? 24 MS. RUTTER: Objection to the form of the 25 question. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001420 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 478 1 A. Well, when you say "purchased," they didn't 2 purchase it from Monsanto. They purchased it from 3 Great Western. 4 Q. Okay. What is Monsanto's name doing at the 5 top of this form? 6 A. Because this is the piece of paper that's 7 used internally to place the order at the -- at the 8 location that has the material. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. They might have sent this at that time just 11 as well bo another location. 12 Q. Okay. Does Monsanto get -- retain a copy of 13 this order form? 14 A. Yeah. That's where this came from. 15 Q. Okay. Where would it have been kept at, this 16 particular order form? 17 A. Monsanto's general filing system. 18 Q. Okay. So this document would impart notice 19 to Monsanto that on May 21st, 1970, Columbia Paint 20 Company had purchased one 50-pound drum of Aroclor 21 1254? 22 MS. RUTTER: Objection. Asked and 23 answered so -- 24 A. Not purchased. 25 MS. RUTTER: -- many times that it ' s www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001421 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 479 1 argumentative. 2 A. Not from Monsanto. 3 Q. Oh, they purchased from Great Western 4 Chemical Company? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. Okay. But manufactured by Monsanto? 7 A. And shipped by Monsanto. 8 Q. Okay. Great. And I just want to establish. 9 this is a record kept by Monsanto in its ordinary 10 course of business? 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. 13 Now, Mr. Papageorge, I'm going to hand you 14 what was marked at your previous deposition 15 Exhibit 65-A, just have you review that letter t 16 please. 17 MS. RUTTER: Do you have a copy of that 18 for me, counsel? 19 MR. OAAS: You know, I don't. If you want 20 to take a break and obtain a copy. I got that from 21 Cathy. 22 MS. RUTTER: I've got it. 23 MR. OAAS: All right. Thank you. Can we 24 go ahead? 25 MS. RUTTER: Yes. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI422 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 480 1 BY MR. OAAS: 2 Q. Mr. Papageorge, do you recall me asking you 3 some questions about Exhibit 65-A at your last 4 deposition? 5 A. Somewhat, yes. 6 Q. And I think I asked you whether or not that 7 letter, 65-A, it appears to indicate you got a copy of 8 that letter; correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. It imparted some information that a Monsanto 11 customer was importing Japanese PCBs? 12 A. I recall the reference to that. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. I'm not aware of any shipment from Japan, but 15 I have no way of knowing for sure. 16 Q. Doesn't that letter indicate to you that 17 Sonnenborn was purchasing Japanese -- purchasing and 18 importing Japanese PCBs? 19 MS. RUTTER: Objection to the form of the 20 question. 21 Q. By Julyof 1971. 22 A. I don't know that that tells me they are 23 importing. It's almost a rumor that that's going on. 24 Q. You recall whether or not you were -- Do you 25 recall whether or not you did any investigation on www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOQ1423 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 481 1 your own to determine whether or not Sonnenborn was, 2 in fact, importing Japanese PCBs? 3 A. Yeah, but we never confirmed any of that. 4 Q. All right. Okay. And then if you could go 5 to -- I'm going to hand you what your counsel handed 6 to you as a copy of Exhibit 4. Well, you have one in 7 front of you there. 8 A. I have one, yes. 9 Q. Okay. That's your report to the ANSI 10 Committee; correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. If we could just reference page 108. 13 A. I have page 108. 14 Q. Okay. And doesn't that indicate. 15 Mr. Papageorge, that you told the ANSI Committee that 16 you, and when I say "you" in this reference, I'm 17 talking about Monsanto, that Monsanto had no 18 information that any imports had arrived in the United 19 States? 20 A. Well, there is no -- Is there -- Which 21 sentence are you referring to? 22 Q. I'm just reading from the second paragraph. 23 the first full paragraph, to pick up the point that -- 24 that was raised earlier about foreign imports. "We 25 are to the best of our ability trying to monitor www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI424 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 482 1 imports. To this day we have no information that any 2 have arrived in this country." 3 MS. RUTTER: I assume you're asking the 4 guestion as of the date of the memo, September 14th, 5 1971? 6 Q. Absolutely. Absolutely. In September 1971, 7 you had no information that any of your customers were 8 importing PCBs? 9 A. That is true. 10 Q. Okay. And that would include Sonnenborn? 11 A. Well, naturally, since we had no information 12 whatever. 13 Q. All right. Why don't you skip that document, 14 Mr. Papageorge, and go to what I've marked as 15 Exhibit 67. 16 MS. RUTTER: I don't see -- I've got it. 17 MR. Oaas: These documents -- I reserved 18 questions on Exhibit 67 and 68. The exhibits - 19 MS. RUTTER: I saw that in the transcript. 20 MR. OAAS: -- would have been given to you 21 at that time. 22 MS. RUTTER: They were. 23 BY MR. OAAS: 24 Q. Okay. Would you take a minute and look 25 through Exhibit 67, sir? www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOQ1425 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 483 1 A. I have scanned the article. 2 Q. Okay. I have a few questions about it. 3 A. All right. 4 Q. You can take as long -- as long as you want 5 to review any portion of this exhibit to answer any 6 question . All right? 7 A. All right. 8 Q. Now, and this refers to questions by Miss 9 Rutter concerning the letters that Monsanto sent out 10 in 1970 that -- You recall her asking you about those 11 letters -- 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. -- earlier today? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. If you turn to page three, there ' s a 16 handwritten "App. 8," page three at the bottom. Do 17 you see that sir? 18 A. I see it. 19 Q. I'm directing your attention to the middle of 20 page three. I want you to find a sentence, "It is not 21 our responsibility to alert our distributors' 22 customers." Do you see that? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Would you tell me what that refers to, sir. 25 please? www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI426 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 484 1 MS. RUTTER: Objection, lack of 2 foundation. 3 A. It refers to Monsanto communicating with our 4 customers' customers, and it would indicate that in 5 the first place we don't have that information, and 6 our customers are reluctant to share their customer 7 list with the public, so it's very difficult to 8 communicate unless you do have a name and an address. 9 Q. So your testimony under oath is that your 10 recollection is that Monsanto did not know the 11 identity of its distributors' customers? 12 MS. RUTTER: Objection to the overbroad 13 and vague form of the question. 14 Q. In 1970. 15 A. In 1970, we may have known a handful of them, 16 but we just didn't have a complete list from any of 17 our initial customers of who their customers were. 18 Q. You recall ever seeking that information back 19 in 1970, for example, from Great Western Chemical 2 0 Company? 21 A. I do not. 22 Q. You recall you yourself ever requesting that 23 information from Great Western Chemical Company in 24 1970? 25 A. No. I was never involved in that. That was www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001427 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 485 1 Marketing Department responsibility. 2 Q. Have you ever seen any document authored by 3 any director of -- like say in the Plasticizer 4 Division, like Mr. Schalk at the time. Have you ever 5 seen a letter from Mr. Schalk trying to obtain a 6 customer list from a distributor? 7 A. Not in writing, no. 8 Q. Do you have any memory or recollection at 9 this time whether back in 1970 a distributor like 10 Great Western Chemical Company would refuse to give 11 you that information? 12 A. Do I have any record? 13 Q. Do you have any recollection or memory -- 14 A. Recollection. 15 Q. -- that they had ever refused to give you -- 16 A. The marketing people would -- That's the 17 answer I would get when I asked that question. 18 Q. You don't have any specific recollection of 19 ever asking that question -- 20 MS. RUTTER: Objection, mischaracterizes 21 testimony. 22 Q. --to Great Western Chemical Company in 1970? 23 A. Specific to Western Chemical? 24 Q. Right. 25 A. No. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001428 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 486 1 Q. Okay. Now, I want to go a little further 2 down on page three there, Mr. Papageorge. 3 A. Uh-huh. 4 Q. It reads -- I'll just read it into the 5 record. "Let me summarize what Monsanto's letter 6 says." Do you see where I'm at, sir? 7 A. I do. 8 Q. Okay. " One. Its primary function is to 9 alert customers to a potential environmental pollution 10 problem. Confidentially, our Legal Department 11 believes this will minimize and hopefully eliminate 12 claims made against us for environmental pollution 13 damage." Did -- Did I read that correctly? 14 A. Yes, you did. 15 Q. Okay. Was that your understanding of the 16 function of the letters -- 17 MS. RUTTER: Objection, lack of 18 foundation. 19 Q. -- that were sent in 1970? 20 MS. RUTTER: The first sentence or the 21 second sentence? 22 MR. OAAS: Both. 23 MS. RUTTER: Objection to the overbroad 24 and vague form of the question. 25 A. You're asking me a question about what the www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001429 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 487 1 Legal Department's belief was. 2 Q. Let me just try it again, and maybe I can 3 ask -- 4 A. Yeah. 5 Q. -- a better question. Its primary function 6 is to alert customers to a potential environmental 7 pollution problem. 8 A. That's -- That's it. 9 Q. You had that -- That was your understanding 10 of the letter? 11 A. That was for sure, yes. 12 Q. How about the second sentence? And alls I'm 13 asking is were you aware, and I think you were -- Were 14 you a Director of Environmental Operations at this 15 time? 16 A. Uh-huh. 17 MS. RUTTER: What is the date on this? 18 Does it have a date? 19 MR. OAAS: Well, I'm assuming 1970. If I 20 can' t connect it up, then you can have your objection. 21 A. There's no date -22 Q. No date. 23 A. -- fixed to it, but it's -- 24 Q. But they're referring to the 1970 letters is 25 my understanding. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001430 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 488 1 A. We can only assume that -- 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. -- because of the subject matter and timing. 4 Q. Okay. Let's assume that's true. What about 5 the second sentence in that paragraph I read? Did you 6 have that understanding as to the purpose of the 7 letters, or is this new information to you today? 8 MS. RUTTER: Objection. Lack of 9 foundation, calls for speculation. 10 A. The second -11 Q. Yes. The second sentence, it says, 12 "Confidentially, our Legal Department believes this 13 will minimize and hopefully" - 14 A. That's not the second sentence. It says 15 "does not imply". I see the number two. You're still 16 in number one. 17 Q. The second sentence in paragraph number one. 18 A. Oh, the second sentence. All right. 19 Q. It says, "Confidentially, our Legal 20 Department believes this will minimize and hopefully 21 eliminate claims made against us for environmental 22 pollution damage." Is that new information to you 23 today? 24 A. I don't ever remember our Legal Department 25 specifically saying that -- making that statement. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOQ1431 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 489 1 Q. Okay. Now, you recall whether or not 2 Monsanto gave advice to its regional managers as to 3 how to handle customer inquiries and questions that 4 were prompted by the letters that were sent in 1970 to 5 its direct customers and its distributors? 6 A. There was communications to all Monsanto 7 representatives. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. And an attempt made so that everybody on the 10 team understood it. 11 Q. Okay. 12 MS. RUTTER: Counsel, do you have an 13 author for this document? I'm not finding an author 14 or a date. 15 MR. OAAS: I can't tell you that off the 16 top of my head. 17 MS. RUTTER: Object to the lack of 18 foundation for the document. 19 BY MR. OAAS: 20 Q. Let's go to -- I want you to direct your 21 attention to Bates No. DSW 318235. 22 A. 225. 23 Q. Page 16. 24 A. What page did you say? 25 Q. Page 16 in the handwritten numbers. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI432 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 490 1 A. I have it. 2 Q. Okay. And it appears to me that I'm looking 3 at a set of anticipated questions from Monsanto 4 customers and Monsanto's suggested responses to its 5 field personnel if they got asked a particular 6 question? 7 MS. RUTTER: Objection. Lack of 8 foundation on an undated, unsigned document. 9 Q. Is that what it looks like to you. 10 Mr. Papageorge? 11 A. Like what? I'm sorry. 12 Q. Can you tell me what I'm -- what I'm looking 13 at here? If you can't, that's fine, too, but if you 14 can, let me know. 15 A. This refers to effluent and analytical 16 equipment. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. Is that what you're talking about? 19 Q. Yeah. Page 16. 20 MS. RUTTER: I believe he's on page 15, 21 counsel. 22 Q. Page 16. 23 A. 16. 24 Q. Excuse me. 25 MR. DAVIS: It's the one that has page six www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001433 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 491 1 at the upper right? 2 MR. OAAS: Right, Max. 3 MR. DAVIS: Paying attention. 4 MR. OAAS: Good. Never doubted it for a 5 minute. 6 BY MR. OAAS: 7 Q. Mr. Papageorge, am I looking at a series 8 of -- at a document prepared by Monsanto that appears 9 to be a series of questions that Monsanto anticipated 10 its customers might be directing to its field 11 personnel after they had received the PCB notification 12 letters? 13 MS. RUTTER: Objection, lack of 14 foundation. No date, author, or letterhead on the 15 document in question. But you may answer. 16 A. You said it's Monsanto's. I would say it's 17 employees of Monsanto who had these thoughts and 18 expressed them, and they were typed on a piece of 19 paper to share with the whole team, so to speak. 20 Q. Okay. That's very good. I want to ask you 21 something about question five. Do you see question 22 five there? 23 A. Uh-huh. 24 Q. It says, "How does Monsanto think Aroclors 25 can get into the environment and cause so much www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI434 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 492 1 pollution?" 2 A. Yeah. 3 Q. Do you see that? 4 A. Yeah. 5 Q. And the answer reads, "Disposal, leakage from 6 systems using it, spills, et cetera." Did I read that 7 correctly? 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. If you were asked that question back in -- 10 You as Director of Environmental Operations, if you 11 were asked that question back in 1970, would you have 12 given the same answer that's written there? 13 A. Yeah. It's -- Again, it's a case of Monsanto 14 thinking , but not Monsanto knowing definitely that 15 it's happening this way. 16 Q. Okay. Now, let's go to page 17. There's a 17 heading "Toxicity". Do you see what I'm referring to? 18 A. I do. 19 Q. And there's a question with a number one 20 after it do you see there? 21 A. Uh-huh. Yes. 22 Q. And the question reads, "If PCB is a danger 23 to fish and birds, how about humans?" And the answer 24 reads, " The amounts being found in the environment are 25 not considered a danger to humans or fish. The whole www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001435 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 493 1 question on chlorinated pesticides relates to birds." 2 Did I read that correctly? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Would that be -- Again, I'm asking you in 5 your capacity as Director of Environmental Operations, 6 if you had been asked that question back in 1970, 7 would the answer typed here, would that be a true and 8 correct answer? 9 MS. RUTTER: Objection, overbroad and 10 vague, calls for speculation and conjecture. 11 A. My hesitation is due to the fact that the 12 question is related to chlorinated pesticides, but 13 there's no definition of what is meant by that 14 expression. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. It's not necessarily PCBs. 17 Q. All right. If you were asked a question back 18 in 1970 as Director of Environmental Operations as to 19 whether or not PCBs were toxic to fish, how would you 20 have answered that? 21 MS. RUTTER: Objection, calls for 22 speculation and conjecture, lack of foundation. But 23 you may answer subject to the objection. 24 A. My answer would have been one, "Well, show me 25 the information you have and let me know where it came www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI436 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 494 1 from and who conducted the studies and what damage was 2 done and under what conditions." It's a difficult 3 question to answer. 4 Q. Can't be answered yes or no in your -5 A. Not at that time, no. 6 Q. Okay. Thank you. Let's go to page 21. 7 A. I have it. 8 Q. Do you see the heading "Applications"? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And then there's a question number one there 11 again? Do you see that? 12 A. I do. 13 Q. And it reads, "Could Aroclor 1254/1260 escape 14 from my sealant/adhesive/coating whatever into the 15 environment?" Do you see that question? 16 A. Yeah. 17 Q. Okay. If you were asked that question as the 18 Director of Environmental Operations back in 1970, how 19 would you have answered it then? 20 MS. RUTTER: Objection, overbroad and 21 vague. 22 A. Well, the answer given there touches on it. 23 but what it really implied I'd need more information. 24 I don't have enough. 25 Q. So you couldn't give an answer to that www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001437 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 495 1 question? 2 A. No, not with what I was told. 3 Q. All right. Mr. Papageorge, I'm going to hand 4 you a document that I've marked as Plaintiff's 70-A 5 and ask you to take a minute and look at that, please. 6 MS. RUTTER: While I find it, and Mr. Oaas 7 did indeed give me a copy. It's just when they are 8 not in notebooks, I tend to lose them. 9 MR. OAAS: That's okay. Take your time. 10 No problem. 11 A. I've scanned it. 12 Q. Have you ever seen this article before, 13 Mr. Papageorge? 14 A. I don 't remember seeing this. 15 Q. Okay. You certainly know who Jack T. Garrett 16 is? 17 A. Jack Garrett, yes. Yes. 18 Q. And who was Mr. Garrett? 19 A. He's a Monsanto employee working in 20 Monsanto 's Medical Department, which was headed by 21 Dr. Kelly, and Mr. Garrett ended up as an industrial 22 hygienist following employee exposures and ways to 2 3 prevent exposure. 24 Q. And apparently back in the 1950s, 25 specifically 1957, he authored an article titled www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001438 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 496 1 "Toxicity Considerations in Pollution Control"? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Okay. And he's identified in the article as 4 an industrial hygienist and advisor on stream 5 pollution control for the Monsanto Chemical Company, 6 St. Louis, Missouri? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Okay. And that's -- That's how you 9 understand his employment at Monsanto at that time? 10 A. In the '50s, yes. 11 Q. Now, if you direct your attention to the 12 first three or four paragraphs of this article, 13 Mr. Papageorge. 14 A. Uh-huh. 15 Q. I'm just going to read them and then ask you 16 a question about it. It starts out with, "When a new 17 product is to be manufactured, it behooves the 18 manufacturing plant to determine the effect, if any, 19 of the waste products on the receiving stream." Would 20 you agree with that statement as the Director of 21 Environmental Operations for Monsanto? 22 MS. RUTTER: As of 1970? 23 MR. OAAS: Yeah. 24 A. Yeah. Because they use the word "if any," 25 "new," and "maybe". www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOQ1439 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 497 1 Q. "The determination should answer the 2 following questions. One. Will the effluent, as 3 discharged, adversely affect human life?" Would you 4 have agreed with that statement as the Director of 5 Environmental Operations for Monsanto in 1970? 6 A. Well, the question, as worded, implies an 7 effluent will be discharged. On any new product, if 8 it is discharged, that question should be asked. If 9 there is no discharge -- In other words, that question 10 is limited to effluent. 11 Q. How about in your capacity as the Plant -- 12 Plant Manager at Anniston, Alabama? Did that plant at 13 Anniston during your tenure as Plant Manager discharge 14 PCB waste into any receiving stream? 15 A. Not deliberately. 16 Q. So they did, but it wasn't deliberately. Was 17 that your answer? 18 MS. RUTTER: Objection to the use of the 19 term of art "discharge," which implies all sorts of 20 legal things and can be used in a host of different 21 ways. You may answer subject to my objection. 22 MR. OAAS: I'm just asking his common 23 sense understanding. 24 A. In my thinking, when you say a deliberate 25 discharge, those who are discharged know it for a fact www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI440 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 498 1 that this material is created and it goes from here to 2 there to there and it's being discharged, and when I 3 answered the question of a discharge into a stream, I 4 had in mind a deliberate discharge, not the kind that 5 is created by a downstorm of an awful lot of water 6 rinsing off the surface of the planet and on down to 7 reach some sewer line or stream or creek or 8 what-have-you. 9 Q. And then Mr. Garrett goes on to say in point 10 two there, "Will the effluent as discharged adversely 11 affect aquatic life?" Do you see that? 12 A. If you have an effluent, you should know what 13 it is. 14 Q. And what it may or may not be doing to 15 aquatic life? 16 A. If you have a discharge, yeah. 17 Q. Okay. Now, let's skip down to the heading 18 "Chronic Toxicity" -- "Chronic Toxicity Data '. Do you 19 see where I'm referring to, sir? 20 A. I see it. 21 Q. Okay. Now, in 19 -- Were you aware as to 22 whether or not in the 1950s to whether or not Monsanto 23 had any chronic toxicity data on PCBs? 24 MS. RUTTER: Objection, lack of 25 foundation. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001441 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 499 1 A. In 1957 -- I don't recall any studies that 2 were defined as "data on chronic toxicity". They had 3 on LD-50, you know, the low dose at 50 percent of the 4 test animals are affected, they had those acute 5 toxicity studies, not the chronic. 6 Q. All right. How about in 1970? 7 A. In 1970, there were chronic studies underway. 8 Q. Now, if you'd turn to the second page of that 9 article, please, Mr. Papageorge. I'm going to read 10 from the first column on the left, starting with the 11 words "data are necessary on the effects". Do you see 12 that? 13 A. I see it, uh-huh. 14 Q. It says, "Data are necessary on the effects 15 of pollutants on aquatic life for several reasons, the 16 principal reason being that the appearance of dead 17 fish in the receiving stream has long been considered 18 the ultimate evidence of bad industrial practice." Do 19 you agree with that statement in general? 20 A. Yeah. 21 Q. Then it goes on to say, "In addition to this 22 situation, damage to aquatic life is a violation of 23 many state fish and game laws. A third reason is the 24 offense to the aesthetic senses. The smell of dead 25 fish is one that is seldom tolerated with any degree www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI442 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 500 1 of appreciation by the public." Would you agree with 2 those statements by Mr. Garrett? 3 A. That's right. There's... 4 Q. And let's go -- 5 MS. RUTTER: Objection. Lack of 6 relevance. 7 Q. Let's go to the last -- last -- last 8 paragraph in the article. 9 A. The last paragraph in the article? 10 Q. Yeah. "Lack of Comprehensive Data," do you 11 see that heading, sir? 12 A. I see it. 13 Q. It reads, "This entire dissertation points up 14 the lack of comprehensive data on the effects of 15 industrial waste on living organisms." Would you 16 agree with that statement as made by Mr. Garrett in 17 1957? 18 MS. RUTTER: Objection, overbroad and 19 vague, lack of foundation. 20 A. I don't know that there's a lack of 21 comprehensive data, but there might be a shortage, an 22 inadequate amount of data. 23 Q. Was that the case in 1970 when you were 24 Director of Environmental Operations with respect to 25 PCBs? www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI443 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 501 1 A. In 1970, there was more data than in '57, but 2 it' s still being generated to this day. 3 Q. Now, I missed an exhibit so I want to go back 4 to Exhibit 68. 5 A. Exhibit... 6 MS. RUTTER: Did you hand him a copy? 7 MR. OAAS: Yeah. You should have -8 A. Here's 65. 9 Q. Look for a 68. 10 A. A 64, a 67 and 70. 11 MR. OAAS: I think I might have stuck one 12 together here. 13 MS. RUTTER: I was going to say I didn't 14 see a 68 in my packet. 15 MR. OAAS: Well, that's because it's stuck 16 to 67 . 17 MS. RUTTER: Oh! Was that it? I was 18 going to say to speed things up I have a copy here. 19 BY MR. OAAS: 20 Q. Okay. I'm going to hand you what I've marked 21 as Plaintiff's Exhibit 68, Mr. Papageorge, and ask you 22 to look at it, please. 23 A. I have scanned the article. 24 Q. What is this? What is Exhibit 68? 25 A. What is Exhibit 68? www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI444 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 502 1 Q. Right. 2 A. It's correspondence between my office and a 3 Mr. Dan Albert of Westinghouse Electric at South 4 Boston, Virginia. 5 Q. Okay. And apparently he had sent to you some 6 questions that he had about Inerteen? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And just to refresh everybody's recollection. 9 what was Inerteen again? 10 A. Inerteen is a PCB material, and it could be 11 any one of the Aroclors that Monsanto manufactures and 12 sells. 13 Q. Including 1254? 14 A. It could be. But it doesn't tell us which 15 Inerteen they're specifically addressing here. 16 Q. That's okay. And apparently Mr. Albert sent 17 you a question that he wanted you to answer or a set 18 of questions that he wanted you to answer; correct? 19 A. Yes. Yes. 20 Q. And the first question that he wanted you to 21 answer was there on page two, the question, "Does 22 Inerteen have permanent effects on the human body? If 23 so, what type of permanent damage and how long a 24 period of time does it take for this to develop? If 25 not, explain why, if possible." Did I read that www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI445 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 503 1 question correctly? 2 A. Yeah. 3 Q. And you gave an answer, and I'm going to 4 offer the entire exhibit at trial, but I just want to 5 direct your attention for the purposes of this 6 deposition to the paragraph the second paragraph from 7 the end of the answer that starts with "the potential 8 toxic effects in humans". Do you see that? It's on 9 page two. 10 A. On page two. 11 Q. As a part of your answer -12 A. Oh, okay. 13 Q. -- to question number one. 14 A. All right. 15 Q. Okay. It reads, "The potential toxic effects 16 in humans from excessive exposure to polychlorinated 17 biphenyls include injury to the liver." Are you with 18 me there now, Mr. Papageorge? 19 MS. RUTTER: I'm not. Could you show me 20 where you are? 21 MR. OAAS: It's MONS number 1 -- Are you 22 on the right page. 100143. 23 MS. RUTTER: All right. 24 MR. OAAS: And the paragraph that's part 25 of the answer to question number one that starts with www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI446 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 504 1 "the potential toxic effects". 2 MS. RUTTER: I see it. I'm with you. 3 Thank you. 4 BY MR. OAAS: 5 Q. Are you with me, Mr. Papageorge? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Okay. I'11 go back to -- to the -- and read 8 it over again. "The potential toxic effects inhumans 9 from excessive exposure to polychlorinated biphenyls 10 include injury to the liver and chloracne. In 11 animals, the liver effect is demonstrated by increased 12 liver weights and injury to cellular tissue. Although 13 chloracne is difficult to evaluate in animals, in 14 humans this takes the form of comedones (large 15 blackheads with typical acute pustules) and may be an 16 extended (sic.) symptom of over exposure preceding 17 serious liver injury." Did I read that correctly? 18 A. Yes. 19 MR. BROWN: "To the extent it's an 20 external symptom." 21 MS. RUTTER: An external symptom. 22 Q. I'm sorry. External symptom of over exposure 23 preceding serious liver injury. Excuse me. Thanks, 2 4 Max, for correcting me. 25 That's the information you gave to www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI447 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 505 1 Mr. Albert at GE -- at Westinghouse in 1975; correct? 2 A. Uh-huh. The key word there is "excessive". 3 Q. Now, this information was known to Monsanto 4 in 1970; correct? 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. When all the letters went out to -- We had 7 all these questions about the letters that went out to 8 your direct customers and distributors in 1970. This 9 information that I just read was known to -- known to 10 Monsanto ; correct? 11 A. Yeah. It was even -- On the labels of the 12 products there would be warnings against exposures. 13 Q. All right. Now, let's go to question three 14 in your answer, which is on page three of the exhibit. 15 Have you read the question and the answer you gave to 16 question three? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Okay. Your answer to that question was. 19 "There is a potential real effect to humans 20 including death - as discussed in the answer to 21 question number one." Did I read that correctly? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And that was known to Monsanto back in 1970? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And then the next paragraph reads, "Due to www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI448 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 506 1 differences in metabolism of food (and food 2 contaminants) in birds and humans (and particularly 3 the difference in the reproduction process in birds 4 and mammals - including humans), birds are 5 particularly sensitive to many chlorinated 6 hydrocarbons, including polychlorinated biphenyls." 7 Did I read that correctly? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Wasn't that information known to you as the 10 Director of Environmental Operations -11 A. Yes. 12 Q. -- of Monsanto back in 1970? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And wasn't it known to you as the Director of 15 Environmental Operations back in 1970 that the major 16 route of exposure for birds to get PCBs in their 17 symptoms (sic.) was eating fish? 18 MS. RUTTER: Objection, overbroad and 19 vague, lack of foundation. 20 A. I'm not -- I don't recall specific reference 21 to eating fish as being the key source. 22 Q. Okay. But it was at least one of the 23 sources? 24 MS. RUTTER: Same objection, lack of 25 foundation, calls for speculation, conjecture. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI449 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 507 1 Q. Did you hear my question, Mr. Papageorge? 2 A. No, I didn't. I'm sorry. 3 Q. I'm sorry. I'll repeat it. The question 4 that was out there for you to answer was that -- I 5 think you said that you didn't know back in 1970 6 that -- that eating fish was a major source of PCB 7 ingestion by birds. I think that was the answer you 8 gave. Was that -- My question was, it was at least 9 one route of exposure, whether it was the major one or 10 not? 11 MS. RUTTER: Objection, lack of 12 foundation, calls for speculation and conjecture. 13 A. I would suggest that there were one possible 14 route. There was no evidence that it was a widespread 15 situation. 16 Q. Okay. And you're speaking as -- That answer 17 was you speaking as the Director of Environmental 18 Affairs for Monsanto in 1970? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Now, how long did Monsanto -- By 1970, how 21 long had Monsanto been making PCBs? 22 A. Since '34, '35. 23 Q. Can you tell me how it came to be that one or 24 two scientists from Sweden working on their own were 25 the first ones to identify PCBs as a global pollutant? www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001450 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Paqe 508 1 MS. RUTTER: Objection to the form of the 2 question in that it assumes facts not in evidence, 3 lack of foundation, but he -- You may answer the 4 question to the best of your ability. 5 Q. I mean, Monsanto's -- I'll rephrase the 6 question . Monsanto's been making PCB -- By 1970, 7 they'd been making PCBs for 30 -- 30 years? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Selling them all over the United States; 10 correct? 11 A. Right. 12 Q. Outside of the United States. Large market 13 outside of the United States, correct, for PCBs? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. For hundreds of uses; correct? 16 A. Right. 17 Q. Maybe thousands of uses; correct? 18 A. Right. 19 Q. I believe, if I remember correctly, the 20 figures I've seen show that in 1969 and 1970 Monsanto 21 was making and marketing some 80 million pounds of 22 PCBs. Does that number sound fair? 23 A. All right. 24 Q. And the question that's always intrigued me 25 about this case is how it came to be that two Swedish www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001451 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 509 1 scientists -- Who were not employees of Monsanto; 2 correct? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. They lived in Sweden as far as --as far as we 5 know; correct? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. Made the PCB discovery in Sweden; correct? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. How -- Do you have any idea or opinion on how 10 it came to be that two -- these two scientists, Jensen 11 and Widmark, came to discover PCBs in the environment 12 before Monsanto did? 13 MS. RUTTER: Objection to the form of the 14 question. 15 A. Jensen and Widmark were really looking at DDT 16 and DDE. 17 Q. And that makes my question more -- I meant to 18 add that in my question. They founds PCBs and they 19 weren't even looking for them. 20 A. They found it by accident because the 21 instrument they were using was extremely more 22 sensitive than instruments of that nature available to 23 the rest of the world, and even when they found it. it 24 took them a while to try to identify it. They didn 't 25 know what it was. They didn't know it was PCB. So www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI452 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 510 1 it's -- Everything that developed there was a 2 challenge to them because they kept running into all 3 sorts of problems. 4 Q. Is it your testimony as Director of 5 Environmental Operations for Monsanto that an 6 international chemical company like Monsanto, the size 7 of Monsanto, did not have as easy access to gas 8 chromatography and mass spectrometry in 1966 and 1967 9 as Jensen and Widmark did? 10 MS. RUTTER: Objection to the form of the 11 question. 12 A. No. Because, as individuals, they had a lot 13 more opportunity to do research and experiment in that 14 particular area. The rest of the world didn't have 15 that. It isn't just Monsanto. 16 Q. Well, isn't it Monsanto's responsibility as 17 the manufacturer of PCBs to know everything it can 18 about the product that it's putting out on the market? 19 A. Everything it can, yes, with the knowledge 20 and instruments and -- available to the world at that 21 time. They were ahead -- They were there with the 22 rest of the world. 23 Q. Now, there's been some talk, a lot of talk 24 about a guy named Scott Tucker that came onboard at 25 Monsanto in '69 or '70. Do I have the dates right? www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001453 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 511 1 MS. RUTTER: Objection to the form of the 2 question in that those dates are wrong. 3 Q. When did Scott Tucker first become employed 4 with Monsanto? 5 A. Scott was active in late -- late '60s, 6 after -- 7 Q. That's what I said, '69, '70. 8 MS. RUTTER: Objection to the form of the 9 question. 10 Q. Do you know when he first became employed by 11 Monsanto? 12 A. I don't know the dates, but he was involved 13 before 1970. 14 Q. And he was an analytical chemist? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. Was he the first analytical chemist that 17 Monsanto had ever hired? 18 A. Oh, no. 19 Q. How manyanalytical chemistsdid Monsanto 20 have onboard in staff in 1966? 21 A. Analyticalchemists? Everyplant Monsanto 22 has has at least two of them, so there must have been 23 a hundred of the analytical chemists. 2 4 Q. And wasn't -- Wasn't it Monsanto's philosophy 25 at the time in the 1960s to keep these analytical www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI454 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 512 1 chemists stocked with the most up-to-date and 2 sophisticated chemistry equipment available? 3 A. Yes. But these instruments we talked about 4 with Jensen and Widmark were not available. They had 5 just been developed coincidentally with their study of 6 DDT. It 's pure coincidence. 7 Q. Pure coincidence. Okay. Now, if your 8 counsel could hand you her Exhibit 5 in Notebook A. 9 MS. RUTTER: Okay. 10 Q. That's the Rising & Strand letter. If you'd 11 look over tab five, Mr. Papageorge, please. 12 A. Five? 13 Q. Yeah. 14 A. I have it. 15 Q. This is the letter from Ola? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And she was writing to somebody you already 18 identified as a Monsanto Europe employee by the name 19 of David Wood? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. And apparently at least this letter appears 22 to indicate that Ola Palm was a lawyer that worked for 23 this Rising & Strand law firm? 24 MS. RUTTER: Objection to the 25 characterization of Rising & Strand as a law firm. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001455 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 513 1 MR. OAAS: Well, that's what I always 2 thought they were. Do you know something different? 3 MS. RUTTER: Yeah. They are not a law 4 firm. 5 MR. OAAS: What are they? 6 MS. RUTTER: I believe they were -- I 7 don't know what they were. I know what they were not. 8 They were not a law firm. 9 MR. OAAS: You learn something new every 10 day. 11 BY MR. OAAS: 12 Q. Let's go to the last page of that letter. 13 please, Mr. Papageorge. 14 A. I have it. 15 Q. Do you know who -- what Rising & Strand did? 16 A. I'm sorry. The who? 17 Q. Rising & Strand. 18 A. No, I don't know anything about them. 19 Q. But apparently David Wood was told by Ola 20 Palm in the last paragraph of her letter that she had 21 no doubt that what Soren Jensen had found were -- were 22 Aroclor? Correct? 23 A. That's true. 24 Q. All right. 25 MS. RUTTER: Well, objection to the form. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI456 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 514 1 The sentence says "suppose," but... 2 Q. And the date of that is in November of 1966; 3 correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 MR. SHAW: Five minutes of tape left. 6 MR. OAAS: Why don't we just switch now? 7 MR. SHAW: This will end tape number five 8 in the continued deposition of William Papageorge. We 9 are off the record at 3:22 p.m. 10 (Whereupon, there was a brief recess.) 11 MR. SHAW: We are back on the record at 12 3:28 p.m. This will begin tape number six in the 13 continued deposition of William Papageorge. 14 BY MR. OAAS: 15 Q. Mr. Papageorge, would you go to Exhibit 32 16 under tab 32 in Notebook A, please? 17 A. I have the exhibit. 18 Q. Do you recall Miss Rutter asking you some 19 questions about this exhibit earlier this morning? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And this letter does indicate that Monsanto 22 had a practice in the '66 to '70 time frame, and maybe 23 even later, of providing anybody who requested an 24 Aroclor sample; correct? 25 A. Correct. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001457 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 515 1 Q. And wouldn't it be fair to say that one of 2 the reasons Monsanto was cooperating in this regard is 3 that it wanted these research scientists to make an 4 accurate determination of the substance they were 5 testing in the environment to make sure that it was 6 Aroclor or PCBs and not something else; right? 7 MS. RUTTER: Objection to the overbroad 8 and form -- overbroad and vague form of the guestion 9 given the area of analytical chemistry, but you may 10 answer to the extent you're able. 11 A. I have a bit of hesitation. I think you 12 mentioned '50s to '70s. 13 Q. '60s. 14 A. '60s. 15 Q. '66 to '70? 16 A. Late '60s, all right. Yeah. That was the 17 reason for cooperating. 18 Q. You didn't want to be accused of putting 19 something into the environment that wasn't a PCB; 20 correct? 21 MS. RUTTER: Objection to the form of the 22 guestion. 23 Q. And that's why you were providing everybody 24 with an Aroclor sample? 25 MS. RUTTER: Same objection. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOQ1458 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 516 1 A. Well, we were providing an Aroclor sample 2 primarily because we were hoping that all of these 3 entities that received the sample could contribute to 4 the knowledge of the system used to determine accurate 5 data relating to PCBs. 6 Q. Okay. And one of the accurate data was you 7 wanted to make sure that -- that they knew what a PCB 8 was when they were looking at it on a gas 9 chromatograph; correct? 10 A. Well, that's one of the reasons, but you will 11 note many of those entities in 1969 that are listed in 12 this particular memorandum already had done some work 13 with PCBs, so they are not totally new. 14 Q. I understand that, and thank you, sir. Did 15 Monsanto cooperate with these agencies, and I'm 16 just -- the Department of Interior, Fish and Wildlife 17 Service, Bureau of Sport Fisheries, and on and on, 18 FDA, U.S.D.A., everybody that's listed here, did 19 Monsanto cooperate with these agencies by giving them 20 its customer list for PCBs? 21 A. Customer list? 22 Q. Yeah. 23 A. I'm confused. I don't know that they ever 24 got a customer list. 25 Q. Okay. Now, let's go to the exhibit under tab www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOQ1459 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 517 1 41. 2 A. I have it. 3 Q. Okay. If you'd go to the last page of that 4 exhibit. I believe Miss Rutter characterized this 5 exhibit as containing a 12 point action plan for 6 Monsanto to deal with the PCB issues. 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And then you see there's a number one through 9 12 on the back; correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Can you tell me what particular points in one 12 through 12 have to deal with the issue of the PCBs 13 that were out there and already in use? 14 A. I see the PCBs out there and already in use 15 affected by every one of those. 16 Q. You do? 17 A. It will touch -- Every one of them can be 18 affected by the results of that activity. 19 Q. Now, we saw a Technical Bulletin, I can find 20 it here, but I think I can do it without looking at 21 it, a Technical Bulletin that Monsanto put out in 22 March or April of 1970 warning against putting PCBs in 23 paint for swimming pools. 24 A. Uh-huh. 25 Q. Do you recall that document? www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI460 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 518 1 A. Uh-huh. 2 Q. What -- What -- What did Monsanto or what 3 kind of programs or warning letters -- Can you point 4 to anything where Monsanto dealt with the swimming 5 pool owner who had already had PCBs in his swimming 6 pool coating? What was he supposed to do? 7 A. Well, that advice has to come from the 8 individuals who provided that swimming pool paint 9 blender or seller with information regarding what PCBs 10 can do and what concentrations are possible under what 11 conditions. Just because it's in a coating on a 12 swimming pool wall doesn't say anything. It doesn't 13 say a thing because that PCB isn't going to go into 14 the water by itself. It just isn't going to do that. 15 Q. So your testimony is, if I understood your 16 answer correctly, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that 17 responsibility to assist the prior -- in my example, 18 the prior swimming pool owner that already had 19 PCB-containing paint on his swimming pool -- 20 A. Yeah. 21 Q. -- that was the responsibility of the person 22 that sold him the paint? 23 A. Yeah. Because that person knew if PCBs were 24 in it. 25 Q. Okay. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOQ1461 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 519 1 A. The owner of that swimming pool doesn't know 2 what's in that paint. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. And Monsanto didn't know the owner had a 5 swimming pool with that paint. How can they 6 communicate when they -- There's no information. 7 Q. Okay. And what was the... To my 8 hypothetical, to follow it up, what's the paint, the 9 seller of the paint to the swimming pool customer 10 supposed to tell the swimming pool owner in that -- in 11 that situation? 12 A. Well, there isn't much he can tell until he 13 somehow gets information regarding the possibility of 14 that PCB material in the paint formulation he made can 15 get to a human being and in what quantities. There's 16 no one else that can help him on that. They don't 17 even know it exists. 18 Q. Okay. Now I want you to go -- If counsel 19 would hand you Exhibit WBP M-43. It's in a separate 2 0 notebook. 21 MS. RUTTER: M-43B I'm not finding in 22 Notebook B. Which -- 23 MR. OAAS: WBP M-43. 24 MS. RUTTER: Oh, M-43. I thought you said 25 M-43B. All right. M-43. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI462 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 520 1 Q. Do you have that exhibit in front of you, 2 sir? 3 A. I do. 4 Q. Okay. That's a letter dated February 19th, 5 1970, to Great Western Chemical Company? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And it's sent by -- authored by W. E. Schalk, 8 who at that time was the director of sales of 9 plasticizers; correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Okay. And is it your testimony under oath, 12 Mr. Papageorge, that this letter by Mr. Schalk is a 13 true, honest, and complete disclosure by Monsanto 14 about what it knew at that time about PCBs? 15 MS. RUTTER: Objection to the overbroad 16 and vague form of the question. 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Thank you. Now, let's go to Exhibit WBP M-90 19 and Bates number -- It's Bates number MCL 1110. 20 MS. RUTTER: What's the date of that 21 letter? 22 MR. OAAS: The letter we just referred to 23 is February 19th, 1970. This exhibit is the suggested 24 letter from distributors to Aroclor customers. 25 Doesn't have a date on it. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI463 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 521 1 MS. RUTTER: It's in Notebook D if someone 2 has that. Here. 3 MR. OAAS: That's the notebook right here? 4 MS. RUTTER: Yes. Notebook D. I can 5 direct him to that. 6 MS. RUSSO: I have it here, Carol. 7 MS. RUTTER: Okay. Thanks. Thank you. 8 There you go. 9 BY MR. OAAS: 10 Q. Do you see what I'm looking at there, 11 Mr. Papageorge? It says at the top "Suggested Letter 12 From Distributor to Aroclor Customers"? 13 A. I do. 14 Q. Down at the bottom it has M -- the Bates 15 stamp MCL 000110? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. And apparently thisletter was included with 18 the February 19th, 1970, letter, and it was Monsanto's 19 idea that the distributors were to send this letter to 20 the distributors' own customers; correct? 21 A. Well, they were suggesting they might want to 22 use this letter or compose their own. 23 Q. Now, wouldn't it be fair to say that in 24 February of 1970 the distributors of PCBs that 25 Monsanto used, their best source of information about www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI464 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 522 1 PCBs was Monsanto itself? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Okay. And is this letter that was included, 4 this proposed, suggested letter, let's call it, 5 proposed letter, that the distributors were to send to 6 their customers, was that a true and complete and 7 accurate disclosure of what Monsanto knew about PCBs 8 as of February of 1970? 9 MS. RUTTER: Objection to the overbroad 10 and vague form of the question. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And this is the -- And this is the letter 13 that Great Western -- you wanted Great Western to send 14 to somebody like Columbia Paint Company; correct? 15 A. That waspossible, yes. 16 Q. Now, could Monsanto -- Was there any method 17 in place where Monsanto could force its distributors 18 to send this letter on to the distributors' own 19 customers? 20 A. No. Forcing, no. 21 Q. And there was no way for Monsanto to ensure 22 compliance with Monsanto's wish that the distributors 23 send these letters on to their own customers; correct? 24 A. No. Monsanto had no authority or power to 25 enforce that. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI465 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 523 1 Q. Okay. And are you aware -- 2 A. The only -- 3 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you. 4 A. The only -- Monsanto could only stop selling 5 the material to customers who ignored Monsanto's 6 advice and that ignoring the advice would create 7 problems that Monsanto didn't think should be 8 tolerated. 9 Q. All right. Are you aware of any situation 10 where that occurred? 11 A. No. 12 Q. To your knowledge, as Director of 13 Environmental Operations, did -- did Mr. Schalk, for 14 example, keep -- do any follow-up? Did he ask Great 15 Western, for example, to send proof to Monsanto that 16 these letters had been sent? 17 A. I don't remember any written summary of that. 18 but -- 19 Q. Do you recall -- 20 A. -- I do know -- recall -- I do recall 21 discussions where all the representatives in Monsanto 22 that were involved with PCBs were out there talking 23 and twisting arms, if necessary, to get the audience 24 to listen to them, and they would report back to their 25 headquarters in St. Louis their findings. All that www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI466 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 524 1 was going on constantly. 2 Q. And Exhibit 67 is a document that references 3 that effort; correct? 4 MS. RUTTER: Objection. Please be sure to 5 look at the document, Mr. Papageorge. Objection to 6 lack of foundation since this is the authorless, 7 dateless document. 8 MR. OAAS: Came from you. 9 MS. RUTTER: Didn't come from me. It came 10 from files. It was a document production. 11 MR. OAAS: That's how it was presented to 12 us. 13 A. Yeah. This describes the thinking at the 14 time and how -- how to approach that, yeah. 15 Q. Thank you very much. 16 (Mr. Miller entered deposition.) 17 Q. Now, for example, and just to follow up on 18 the point I'm trying to make, did Monsanto request 19 that its distributors CC Monsanto on the letters that 20 it sent to its own customers in this regard? 21 A. Not that I'm aware of. 22 MR. OAAS: Now, if I can locate the -- Or 23 if counsel can help me locate the August 14th, 1970, 24 letter. 25 MS. RUTTER: It's under tab H of the www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI467 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 525 1 notebook you're in, Exhibit M-60, and I will help 2 Mr. Papageorge locate it as well. There are actually 3 two August 14ths, at least two August 14th letters 4 under that tab. 5 Mr. Oaas, do you have an estimate how much 6 longer you'll be? 7 MR. OAAS: About 10 minutes. 8 MS. RUTTER: Okay. 9 MR. OAAS: I want the witness to look at 10 MCL 000397 , please. 11 MS. RUTTER: That's not -- What notebook 12 are you in 9 13 MR. OAAS: Your notebook WBP M-102. 14 MS. RUTTER: Ah, you are in the right 15 notebook. There you go. 16 THE WITNESS: M-102. 17 MS. RUTTER: And the Bates number is 397? 18 MR. OAAS: Correct. 19 MS. RUTTER: All right. I think we're all 20 on the same page. 21 BY MR. OAAS: 22 Q- Now, Mr. Papageorge, it's my understanding 23 that this letter was sent out by Mr. Schalk to 24 Monsanto's direct plasticizer customers about two 25 weeks before Monsanto withdrew the sales of Aroclors www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI468 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 526 1 for plasticizer applications. Do I have my time frame 2 correct? 3 A. Uh-huh. 4 Q. Is that correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Okay. And correct me if I'm wrong, but this 7 letter was directed to your direct customers as to 8 what -- Since they weren't going to be able to buy 9 Aroclor anymore for plasticizer uses, it appears to 10 me, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the main purpose 11 of this letter was to let them know what they should 12 do with any inventory that they had on hand and might 13 be selling after August 14th, 1970. 14 A. Well, yeah. It does cover that, with this 15 additional information that was included. 16 Q. What are you referring to? 17 A. Attached to that letter of August 14th -- 18 Q. Was the Technical Bulletin? 19 A. Was a revised Technical Bulletin with new 20 information regarding the PCB situation. 21 Q. Okay. And the only point I want to make, I 22 think I understand it correctly, but this letter went 23 out about two weeks before you discontinued all sales 24 of PCBs for use in the plasticizer applications; 25 correct? www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI469 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 527 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Okay. And isn't it true that by August of 3 1970 Monsanto had developed replacement products for 4 its Aroclors that were used in plasticizer 5 applications? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And those products, or at least some of those 8 products, had been developed in the 1969 and 1970 time 9 frame; correct? 10 MS. RUTTER: Objection, overbroad and 11 vague, calls for speculation. 12 A. I'm not aware of any of those products being 13 that newly developed. They were existing plasticizers 14 that were now being recommended for use as 15 replacements in those applications where PCBs were 16 withdrawn. 17 Q. Okay. Well, maybe -- Maybe I don't 18 understand the time frame, and I just want to get it 19 right. Are you saying that -- that Monsanto 20 terminated its PCB sales for use in plasticizer 21 applications when it felt ready to recommend these 22 replacement products for use in its plastice -- in its 23 plastice -- former plasticizer applications that it 24 used PCBs? 25 MS. RUTTER: Objection to the overbroad www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001470 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 528 1 and vague form of the question. 2 A. Being ready was not the issue. They were 3 ready. Those products were old products that Monsanto 4 had been selling to other applications for years, and 5 all they had to do was inform the customer that 6 replacement with these products could take place. 7 It's available. Let us know how much you want. 8 Q. Right. So -- So if Monsanto had decided to 9 terminate sales of PCBs for plasticizer uses in 1967, 10 for instance, they already had a whole array of 11 non-PCB plasticizers that could be used by its 12 customers; correct? 13 MS. RUTTER: Objection to the overbroad 14 and vague form of the question since it doesn't take 15 into consideration the numerous varied uses and the 16 potential issues with potential unspecified 17 replacement products. 18 A. Well, the products were there, but the wisdom 19 of replacing them was not apparent until this period 20 of time. 21 Q. Until August of 1970? 22 A. Well... 23 Q. Or thereabouts? 24 A. Or thereabouts. August 1970 was the 25 date. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOQ1471 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 529 1 Q. Okay. And just so I understand, the 2 replacement materials that you recommended for use in 3 your plasticizer applications that had formerly used 4 PCBs had been made by Monsanto for a long, long time? 5 MS. RUTTER: Objection, mischaracterized 6 his testimony. 7 A. For some time. I don't know long, long. 8 Q. Tell me a time. Since the mid '50s? 9 A. Some of them maybe a couple years. Some of 10 them maybe 20 years. A whole mixture. 11 Q. All right. Mr. Papageorge, isn't it true by 12 August of 1970 Monsanto knew that Columbia Paint 13 Company was a customer of Great Western? 14 A. That I don't know. I'd have to look at 15 paperwork. 16 Q. Well, let's dig out Exhibit 70. If you'd get 17 my Plaintiff's Exhibit 70 in front of you, please. 18 MR. OAAS: Do you want to help him? 19 MS. RUTTER: I would help if I knew what 20 it was. What I thought you were talking about -- 21 MR. OAAS: The bill of lading. 22 MS. RUTTER: Okay. That -- You told me 23 that was Plaintiff's Exhibit 80. 24 MR. OAAS: No. No. That's 70. It's 25 marked 70. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001472 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 530 1 MS. RUTTER: Mine's marked 17, but okay. 2 You think this is 70? 3 MR. OAAS: Yes. I know it's 70. 4 BY MR. OAAS: 5 Q. Remember that exhibit, Mr. Papageorge? 6 A. Yes. I recognize it. 7 Q. I asked you some questions about it earlier. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And my question this time is isn't it true 10 that Monsanto knew by August of 1970 that Columbia 11 Paint Company of Helena, Montana, was a customer of 12 Great Western? 13 A. Yes, they did. 14 Q. Thank you. Now, your counsel had you -- I'm 15 not going to dig them out unless she wants to -- had 16 you identify some correspondence that was sent to a 17 professor at MSU and Carroll -- MSU in Bozeman, 18 Montana, and Carroll College in Helena, Montana. Do 19 you recall? 20 A. I do. 21 Q. And that was an opportunity that Monsanto had 22 to inform those individuals about anything they wanted 23 to tell them about the PCB situation; correct? 24 A. It was an opportunity, yes. 25 Q. Mr. Papageorge, can you tell me when Monsanto www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001473 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 531 1 knew that paint containing PCBs was getting into the 2 environment? 3 MS. RUTTER: Objection to the overbroad 4 and vague form of the question. Calls for speculation 5 and conjecture. 6 A. Will you describe your expression "getting 7 into the environment"? In what way? I'm thinking now 8 let's take this traffic lane. The yellow line 9 disappears. 10 Q. Sure. 11 A. You can say, yeah, we knew that was getting 12 into the -- into the environment. That's the only 13 place it could go. 14 Q. And when do you -- When do you think Monsanto 15 became -- acquired that knowledge? 16 A. From day one. 17 MS. RUTTER: In relation to traffic lane 18 lines? 19 A. In fact, when the -- When that paint 20 disappears, it's going somewhere. 21 Q. I think we finally agree on something. When 22 house paint -- When exterior house paint disappears, 23 it's going somewhere; correct? 24 A. If it disappears, yes. 25 Q. And when traffic paint disappears, it's going www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOQ1474 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 532 1 somewhere; correct? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. And it's going into the environment; correct? 4 A. The environment covers everything, so -- 5 Q. And when swimming pool paint that has PCBs in 6 it flakes off and chips off, gets rubbed off by 7 swimmers , is abraded just by the action in the water. 8 it's going into the environment; correct? 9 MS. RUTTER: Objection to the overbroad 10 and vague form of the question, assumes facts that are 11 not and will not be in evidence in this particular 12 case, but you are free to answer -13 MR. OAAS: You're wrong -- 14 MS. RUTTER: -- the question. 15 MR. OAAS: -- about that. 16 Q. You can answer the question. 17 A. Yeah. That material containing the PCBs is 18 in the environment. 19 Q. Sure. Just common sense; right? 20 A. I don't know how common it is. 21 Q. When paint flakes off, blisters, chips off. 22 it's blown off by the wind, rain, snow, where does it 23 go? 24 A. Wherever the elements take it. 25 Q. I have five more exhibits that I have a brief www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001475 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 533 1 period of time on. Here. You can have those as a 2 copy. 3 MS. RUTTER: All right. Thank you. 4 (Mr. Miller no longer present.) 5 Q. Mr. Papageorge, were you aware that there was 6 a national conference on PCBs in 1975? 7 A. A national conference? 8 Q. Yeah. 9 A. Will you describe that for me? 10 Q. Sure. I'll just show you the heading on my 11 exhibit. Counsel can have it marked. I mean, it 12 reads "National Conference on Polychlorinated 13 Biphenyls, November 19 - 20, 1975, Chicago, Illinois, 14 Sponsored By the Environmental Protection Agency in 15 Cooperation with" -- 16 A. Yeah. I attended that. 17 Q. You went there? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. I'm not surprised. That's what I'm going to 20 ask you about, some of the papers that were presented 21 there. Okay? 22 A. Uh-huh. 23 Q. Did you go to Mr. Train's introductory 24 remarks? 25 A. Yes. I was there. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001476 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 534 1 Q. And did you know who Mr. Train was at the 2 time? 3 A. Yes. Environment Protection leader. 4 Q. Okay. Was there -- Was there -- He was the 5 Environmental Protection leader? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. You smile when you say that. Is there a 8 reason for that? 9 A. Well, I kind of smile at the word "leader". 10 Q. You didn't think too highly of Mr. Train? 11 A. Huh? 12 Q. You didn't think too highly of Mr. Train? 13 A. No. No. No. Russell Train was -- he was 14 all right. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. He's a professional. 17 Q. Now, if you'd turn to page seven of Exhibit 18 71. 19 A. I have it. 20 Q. If you could just read to yourself that page. 21 just take a minute and read it to yourself. 22 A. I have read that page. 23 Q. All right. You recall listening to his 24 opening remarks at the conference? 25 A. Yes. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001477 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 535 1 Q. Okay. That page, he states, and, again, I'm 2 reading from the right-hand column at the top, "We 3 believed that all these measures added up to an 4 effective, comprehensive program that would 'take 5 care' of the PCB problem, and would enable us to 6 continue to take commercial advantage of the unique 7 properties of PCBs while insulating the public and the 8 environment against exposure to hazardous levels of 9 those chemicals." Correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Okay. And one of the things -- He mentioned 12 a number of things. One of them was that by that time 13 Monsanto has ceased selling PCBs for use in what we 14 described as open systems; correct? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. Then he goes on to say -- I mean -- He goes 17 on to say, "Instead, more than three years later, we 18 find that although PCB levels in food have steadily 19 declined PCBs are present in our environment to a far 20 greater degree and at higher levels than we previously 21 thought." 22 Now, as Director of Environmental 23 Operations for Monsanto at the time, did you agree or 24 disagree with that statement that Mr. Train made? 25 A. Oh, I agreed withhim. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOQ1478 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 536 1 Q. All right. That's all with that exhibit. 2 Thanks, Mr. Papageorge. Let's go to the next exhibit, 3 which is Exhibit No. 72, I believe. 4 A. 72? 5 Q. Yeah. 6 MS. RUTTER: Have these exhibits been 7 produced before, Mr. Oaas? 8 MR. OAAS: Yes. They were produced to 9 Adam Miller at Dr. Madison's deposition. 10 Q. I'm having you look at a paper that was 11 presented at the 1975 conference entitled "Sources of 12 Polychlorinated Biphenyls in Wisconsin" authored by 13 somebody named Kleinert, K-L-E-I-N-E-R-T. Do you see 14 that, Mr. Papageorge? 15 A. I do. 16 Q. And apparently Mr. Kleinert is the Chief of 17 Surveillance of the Wisconsin Department of Natural 18 Resources in Madison, Wisconsin. Would you agree with 19 that? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay. I'm going to direct your attention to 22 a paragraph on page 124, the right-hand column. 23 Begins with the words "tracing sources of PCBs". Do 2 4 you see where I'm reading from? 25 A. I do. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOQ1479 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 537 1 Q. Mr. Kleinert as the Chief Surveillance 2 Officer of the Department of Natural Resources in 3 Madison, Wisconsin, is telling the 1975 PCB conference 4 that tracing -- that, quote, "Tracing sources of PCBs 5 reaching a large municipal wastewater treatment plant 6 is a difficult and time consuming task. The 7 department is attempting to trace sources of PCBs 8 reaching treatment systems where the final effluent 9 exceeds one part per billion. At the present time, we 10 know of only two municipal wastewater treatment plants 11 in Wisconsin which exceed one part per billion. the 12 Sheboygan and Portage facilities." Do you see where I 13 was reading from? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Did I read that accurately? 16 A. Yes. 17 MS. RUTTER: Where are you reading from, 18 counsel? 19 MR. OAAS: Page 124. 20 MS. RUTTER: All right. 21 MR. OAAS: You can go ahead and look at it 22 a minute, counsel, before I ask him a question. 23 MS. RUTTER: Page 124. Mine starts with 24 127 . 25 MR. OAAS: You don't have the right www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001480 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 538 1 exhibit. 2 MS. RUTTER: I have a document that starts 3 with 284, one that starts with 254, and one that 4 starts with 127. 5 MR. OAAS: Do you mind sharing with the 6 witness? I think that's the only one. He's got two 7 of them or it got lost somewhere in the mound of paper 8 here. 9 MS. RUTTER: Yes. I do not have that one. 10 MR. OAAS: Go ahead and take a minute 11 to -- Take all the time you need, actually. 12 MS. RUTTER: Let's move along. We're -- 13 MR. OAAS: All right. 14 BY MR. OAAS: 15 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Papageorge, here we have 16 a report, do we not, from the head of the Department 17 of Natural Resources in Madison, Wisconsin, where they 18 were having a great deal -- it indicates that they're 19 having a great deal of trouble trying to track down 20 the sources of PCBs that were reaching the waters in 21 Wisconsin. 22 A. Yeah. 23 Q. Would that be true? 24 A. That's true. 25 MS. RUTTER: What's the date of this? www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOQ1481 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 539 1 What's the date of this document? 2 MR. OAAS: 1975. 3 MS. RUTTER: Okay. 4 Q. Did you -- Did you -- Do you recall going to 5 this presentation? 6 A. Yes. I was there. 7 Q. And wouldn't it be true that one of the 8 reasons that the Department of Natural Resources in 9 Madison, Wisconsin, was having a difficult time 10 locating the sources of PCBs going into the waters of 11 Wisconsin is that they did not have Monsanto's 12 plasticizer or any customer list; correct? 13 MS. RUTTER: Objection to the overbroad 14 and vague form of the question. Calls for 15 speculation. Lack of foundation. 16 A. I don't attribute the difficulty only to the 17 lack of a customer list. It's a much more complex 18 problem than you make it out to be. They not only 19 have to decide where to take a sample, but even if 20 they pick a site, they have to determine do they want 21 to take it at the top of the water, down at the very 22 bottom, do they want mud, do they want to -- how close 23 do they want it to the possible source of the 24 contamination. It's a very complex situation they're 25 looking at. It's not that easy where you go to a list www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI482 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 540 1 and say, "Oh, here it is." 2 Q. Wouldn't you at least agree with me, 3 Mr. Papageorge, that the list certainly would have 4 helped the officials of the Department of Natural 5 Resources in Wisconsin locate the sources of PCBs that 6 were getting into their waterways? 7 MS. RUTTER: Objection, calls for 8 speculation and conjecture, assumes facts not in 9 evidence, that that particular department even asked 10 for such a list. 11 A. I -- 12 Q. That brings up a good question. 13 A. I'd have toknow much more about the 14 activities at that site in terms of how the PCB 15 arrived at that plant, what did it undergo as it went 16 through their system, where did it end up. It isn't 17 just a name of a company. Just about every industrial 18 company on that riverfront they're looking at could 19 have a source of PCBs. It could be their transformer; 20 it could be their hydraulic pump; it could be the 21 product they're making. It's not that easy. 22 MS. RUTTER: I would ask our videographer 23 how much longer we have on this tape. 24 MR. SHAW: We have 16 minutes. 25 MR. OAAS: Okay. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001483 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 541 1 MS. RUTTER: Mr. Oaas, you said 10 minutes 2 ago -- 3 MR. OAAS: Right. 4 MS. RUTTER: -- or you said 20 minutes -- 5 MR. OAAS: I'm going to be done -- 6 MS. RUTTER: -- ago that you had 10 7 minutes 8 MR. OAAS: I'm going to be done by the end 9 of this tape. 10 MS. RUTTER: That's for sure? 11 MR. OAAS: Yeah. 12 BY MR. OAAS: 13 Q. Well, won't you at least give me this much. 14 Mr. Papageorge? If the Department of Natural 15 Resources in Madison, Wisconsin, had had the list of 16 PCB customers. that certainly would have assisted them 17 in locating where the -- at least helped at least a 18 little bit in helping them locate where the PCBs were 19 getting into the waters of Wisconsin? 20 MS. RUTTER: Objection. Calls for total 21 speculation and conj ecture. 22 A. I'd have to guess, Mr. Oaas. I -- 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. I don' t see any -- 25 Q. And if www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI484 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 542 1 A. -- true benefit. 2 Q. Okay. And if, in fact -- If, in fact, the 3 Department of Natural Resources in Wisconsin had asked 4 Monsanto in 1970 or '71 for a list of Monsanto's 5 direct customers for PCBs, that request would have 6 been denied; correct? 7 MS. RUTTER: Objection. Calls for 8 speculation and conjecture, assumes facts that are not 9 and will not be in evidence. 10 A. Monsanto was willing to give those lists as 11 long as they were held confidential. 12 Q. Right. So, in other words, the Department of 13 Natural Resources couldn't use the list to go out and 14 find out where the PCBs were coming from; correct? 15 A. I don't -- just don't know how they would use 16 the list, and I don't know how confidential they could 17 keep that information. 18 Q. You're certainly aware oftheletters that we 19 talked about at your last depositionfrom John Mason 20 to Congressman Ryan of Ohio where Mr. Mason refused to 21 turn over to the United States Congress Monsanto's 22 customer lists in 1970 and '71; correct? 23 A. That's right. 24 Q. Okay. 25 MS. RUTTER: Objection. Mischaracterizes www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001485 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 543 1 the letter. There was correspondence with one 2 particular Congressman. 3 MR. OAAS: And that makes a difference to 4 you? 5 Q. All right. Let's go on to Exhibit seventy -- 6 the next exhibit. What number is that? 7 A. 73. 8 Q. 73? 9 MS. RUTTER: Who's the author on this one? 10 MR. OAAS: John Hesse. 11 Q. You're referring to an exhibit entitled 12 "Polychlorinated Biphenyl Usage and Sources of Loss to 13 the Environment in Michigan". Correct, 14 Mr. Papageorge? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Authored by John L. Hesse, H-E-S-S-E? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And he appears to be the supervisor of the 19 Toxic Materials Unit of the Department of Natural 20 Resources in Michigan? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Okay. So -- So here at this conference we 23 had two papers being given by lead officials of the 24 Department of Natural Resources of Wisconsin and 25 Michigan ; correct? www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI486 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 544 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Did you go to the -- Did you go to 3 Mr. Hesse's presentation? 4 A. I don't think so. I don't remember this. 5 MS. RUTTER: Objection then, lack of 6 foundation for any further questions. 7 Q. Now, if you go to page 129 of that exhibit, 8 Mr. Papageorge. 9 A. I have it. 10 Q. Up in the top right-hand column it reads, 11 "From 1971 through 1973, Michigan identified at least 12 12 facilities discharging PCBs to surface waters or 13 municipal sewers from this usage. Concentrations in 14 some discharges were as high as 5.2 milligrams per 15 liter." And they're talking about heat transfer 16 systems. Do you see that? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Okay. Wouldn't it be fair to say that at 19 least the Department of -- the supervisor of the 20 Department of Natural Resources in Lansing, Michigan, 21 was -- was interested in finding out how PCBs were 22 getting into lakes, rivers, and streams in the state 23 of Michigan? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Then he goes on to say on page 130 in the www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001487 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 545 1 right-hand column, second full paragraph down under 2 the heading "Discussion," "Since new industrial 3 sources of loss are continuously being found, we feel 4 we are far from eliminating the PCB inputs to surface 5 waters by searching for point sources and taking 6 corrective measures on a case-by-case basis. We are 7 far from understanding the impact or comparative 8 contribution of atmospheric losses, but we feel these 9 are probably very significant also." Did I read that 10 correctly? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. Apparently he's feeling quite 13 frustrated at the slow progress that Michigan is 14 making in identifying the point sources of PCBs 15 discharges into Michigan waters? 16 MS. RUTTER: Is that a question or a 17 speech? 18 Q. Would that be a fair characterization of that 19 particular passage in his paper? 20 MS. RUTTER: Objection. Calls for 21 speculation and conjecture in relation to the thought 22 processes of someone who gave a speech that 23 Mr. Papageorge was not even present at. 24 Q. You can answer the question, sir. 25 A. I can't answer because I just don't feel I www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001488 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 546 1 have enough information. 2 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next exhibit, please. 3 I'm finished with that one, but go to the next 4 numbered exhibit. No. 74. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Do you know who Ian Nisbet is? 7 A. I don't remember him. 8 Q. Okay. He presented a report at this 9 conference entitled "Environmental Transport and 10 Occurrence of PCBs in 1975"? 11 A. That's what it's titled, yes. 12 Q. And the report, the written report indicates 13 that he's identified as the Director of the Scientific 14 Staff of the Massachusetts Audubon Society; correct? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. And I direct your attention to the abstract 17 of the article. Mr. Nisbet states, "Despite 18 curtailment of some dispersive uses, environmental 19 levels and rates of transport of PCBs have not changed 20 greatly since 1972. This is probably due in part to 21 the continued release of materials in service prior to 22 1971 and in part to time lags in environmental 23 transport and dissipation." 24 As Director of Environmental Operations 25 for Monsanto, would you agree or disagree with that www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOQ1489 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 547 1 statement? 2 MS. RUTTER: Objection, calls for 3 speculation and conjecture, total lack of foundation. 4 A. I just don't have an answer for that. I 5 don't know. 6 Q. And then the last exhibit, please. That's 7 Exhibit 75. 8 A. I have it. 9 Q. Okay. Do you recall attending a presentation 10 by Alan N-E-B-E-K-E-R, I don't know how it's 11 pronounced, Ph.D., entitled "Summary of Recent 12 Information Regarding Effects of PCBs on Freshwater 13 Organisms"? 14 A. That's the title. 15 Q. Do you know who Dr. Nebeker is? 16 A. I don't remember him. 17 Q. Is he identified in this document as an 18 employee of the Western Fish Toxicology -- Toxicology 19 Station at the Corvallis Environmental Research 20 Laboratory, U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, 21 Corvallis, Oregon? Do you see that down at the 22 bottom? 23 A. Yes, I see that. 24 Q. Didn't he report that, and I'11 direct your 25 attention to page 286 under the heading www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001490 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 548 1 "Bioconcentration," didn't Dr. Nebeker report at this 2 conference that fish could uptake PCBs directly from 3 water? 4 MS. RUTTER: Objection, lack of 5 foundation. There's no evidence that this witness 6 attended this particular presentation, and can you 7 please provide the date at which you're asking this 8 guestion? I don't have the cover page to your book. 9 Q. Dr. Papageorge -- or, Mr. Papageorge, I'm 10 looking at page 286, and I'm directing your attention 11 to the second paragraph under the heading 12 "Bioconcentration". Do you see that? 13 A. I see that. 14 MS. RUTTER: These are comments made at a 15 conference in 1975? 16 MR. OAAS: A National Conference on PCBs 17 in 1975. 18 BY MR. OAAS: 19 Q. And it reads, "Exposure of fish to water 20 containing PCBs demonstrate that they can 21 bioconcentrate PCBs directly from the water, in 22 addition to uptake in food." Do you see what I'm 2 3 reading there? 24 A. I see what you're reading, but -- 25 Q. Would that have been -- In 1975, would that www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOQ1491 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 549 1 have been new information to you as Director of 2 Environmental Operations at Monsanto? 3 MS. RUTTER: Objection. Lack of 4 foundation, calls for speculation. 5 A. I don't know that I'd call it new. It's 6 questionable whether the PCB they're referring to as 7 being in the water is, in truth, in solution in the 8 water or in particles in that water. 9 Q. Okay. Then it goes on to say, "The 10 bioconcentration factor (concentration in fish 11 tissue/concentration in the water) for PCBs is 12 essentially independent of the PCB concentration in 13 the water." Do you see where I read? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. You agree or disagree with that statement? 16 MS. RUTTER: Objection, overbroad and it' s 17 vague. 18 MR. OAAS: I'll strike that. 19 Q. Is that new information to you as the 20 Director of Environmental Operations at Monsanto? 21 MS. RUTTER: In 1975? 22 MR. OAAS: In 1975. 23 MS. RUTTER: Objection. 24 A. I don't know that I call it information. 25 This is one man's opinion based on some information he www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI492 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 550 1 had. 2 Q. As of 1975, are you telling me that as the 3 Director of Environmental Operations for Monsanto you 4 didn't know whether or not fish could uptake PCBs 5 directly from water? 6 A. I did not know that. I knew that there was a 7 relationship between the PCBs found within the fish 8 and the environment in which they were taken. That's 9 the only connection I have. I don't know how it 10 happened, whether the fish just absorbed it or whether 11 they ate it or whether it went through their gills. 12 MS. RUTTER: You've got four minutes -- 13 Q. When did you -- 14 MS. RUTTER: -- Mr. Oaas. 15 Q. When did you know that as Director of 16 Environmental Operations? 17 A. Know what. 18 Q. Know that fish could uptake PCBs from their 19 environment. 20 A. Because they kept -- The reports I kept 21 seeing reported the presence of PCBs in these fish, 22 and then they extrapolated that by determining PCBs in 23 their environment and those investigators at the time 24 made the connection, a direct connection. 25 Q. All right. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOQ1493 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 551 1 A. None of them were able to positively 2 demonstrate that the amount of PCB in fish and type 3 was directly related to the presence in the 4 environment. 5 Q. And that includes Dr. Nebeker? 6 A. Yeah. 7 MR. OAAS: Let me just look through my -- 8 Why don't we just go off the record for a minute? I 9 just want to look through my things here - 10 MR. SHAW: We're off the record - 11 MR. OAAS: -- and I'm done. 12 MR. SHAW: -- at 4:24 p.m. 13 (Whereupon, an off-the-record discussion 14 was held.) 15 MR. SHAW: We are back on the record at 16 4:27 p.m. This will begin tape number seven in the 17 continued deposition of William Papageorge. 18 EXAMINATION 19 QUESTIONS BY MS. RUTTER: 20 Q. Mr. Papageorge, I'll be quick. I know those 21 are famous last words for a lawyer. Do you recall 22 Plaintiffs' counsel asking you questions about chronic 23 toxicity studies for PCBs? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And you referred to some studies you were www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI494 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 552 1 aware of about LD-50s before the 1968/69 time period; 2 is that correct? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. Right. Now, Monsanto's Medical Department 5 was in charge of toxicity testing; is that correct? 6 A. That is correct. 7 Q. That would be under the auspices of Dr. Emmet 8 Kelly and Elmer Wheeler? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. Correct. So if Dr. Kelly has previously 11 testified under oath that in 1955 subchronic toxicity 12 tests were run on PCBs by the Kettering Laboratory or 13 Dr. Treon, you wouldn't dispute that his knowledge -- 14 he has direct knowledge of those tests, more direct 15 than you do? 16 A. Oh, yes. Definitely. 17 MR. OAAS: I'd just object to the form of 18 the question. 19 Q. Okay. And you've heard of the Dr. Treon 20 Kettering studies? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. You may or may not have been aware that 23 Dr. Kelly has characterized those as subchronic? 24 MR. OAAS: Object to the form of the 25 question. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOQ1495 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 553 1 A. That's true. 2 Q. Okay. But, in any event, Monsanto had some 3 extensive and expensive toxicity testing run by the 4 Kettering Laboratory, I believe that's in Cincinnati, 5 Ohio, in about 1955 or that time frame by Dr. Treon. 6 Do you recall those studies? 7 A. I recall that, yes. 8 Q. Mr. Papageorge, in response to some of 9 Plaintiffs' counsel's questions, you referred to the 10 fact that because highway stripes disappear you assume 11 they are disappearing into the environment. You 12 recall that testimony? 13 A. That was an assumption. 14 Q. Right. 15 A. It had to go somewhere. 16 Q. Right. But, now, Monsanto during the early 17 time period didn't realize that PCBs were persisting 18 in the environment and getting into the food chain; is 19 that correct? 20 MR. OAAS: Object to the form of the 21 question. 22 A. There was no evidence of any kind -- of that 23 kind at all, so it was just assumed to be harmless 24 like every other paint job. 25 Q. Plaintiffs' counsel asked you a number of www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI496 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 554 1 questions about substitutes for PCB plasticizers. The 2 appropriate substitute depended on the particular 3 application; did it not? 4 A. Oh, yes. Definitely. 5 MR. OAAS: Object to the form of the 6 question. 7 Q. And there were also issues, were there not, 8 of making sure that the proposed substitute wouldn't 9 have toxicity issues or environmental concerns of its 10 own? 11 MR. OAAS: Object to the form of the 12 question. 13 A. Yes. That's true. 14 MS. RUTTER: This is redirect, counsel. 15 MR. OAAS: I know it is. 16 Q. Mr. Papageorge, let me hand you Exhibit 67. 17 This is the undated, anonymous author document. Do 18 you know whether that document was ever distributed to 19 anyone in Monsanto beyond the original author or a 20 relatively small group? 21 MR. OAAS: Object to the form of the 22 question. 23 A. I know it was definitely available to the 24 leaders of the activities associated with these kinds 25 of things, like the Marketing Director, the members of www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOQ1497 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 555 1 the Medical or Health Department, lawyers, the public 2 relations types, but whether it was distributed more 3 or less universally within the company, I've never 4 heard of that one. 5 MR. OAAS: I'll withdraw my objection. 6 Q. In relation to Westinghouse, you recall the 7 exhibit that Plaintiffs' counsel showed you about your 8 correspondence with Westinghouse in -- Was it Sharon, 9 South -- or South Boston, Pennsylvania? 10 A. Yes. Yes. I... 11 Q. Let me just find the exhibit quickly. The 12 exhibit is Plaintiff's 68, and the exhibit you were 13 asked about was to Mr. Dan Albert of Westinghouse at 14 South Boston, Virginia. 15 A. South Boston. 16 Q. On March 18th, 1975. 17 A. What was the question? Did I remember that 18 you said? 19 Q. Yes. You remember this exhibit that was 20 shown to you by Plaintiffs' counsel? It related to 21 toxicity questions being asked by Westinghouse. 22 A. '75... 23 Q. My questioning will be fairly quick. Was 24 Aroclor 1254 used in capacitors? 25 A. Was Aroclor? www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOQ1498 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 556 1 Q. Was Aroclor 1254 used in capacitors? 2 A. No. 3 Q. What Aroclor was used in capacitors? 4 A. Primarily 42, 1242, 1232, in some cases 1221. 5 Q. And perhaps later on Aroclor 1016? 6 A. 1016. 7 Q. The more biodegradable 1242? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. Correct. So assuming that South Boston, 10 Virginia , was a capacitor plant, there would have been 11 no Aroclor 1254 at that plant? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Now, Mr. Oaas asked you questions about 14 toxicity of PCBs and some of the statements you made 15 in response to Mr. Albert's questions. First let me 16 ask you, did Westinghouse have its own medical 17 department? 18 A. They certainly had a medical department. but 19 I have no idea whether they ever got involved in -- in 20 this matter. 21 Q. That would have been Dr. Emmet Kelly and 22 Dr. Elmer Wheeler who would have knowledge of that 23 information? 24 A. If there was any medical question, that 25 communication would take place in that fashion. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001499 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 557 1 Q. And so the name Wilbur Speicher as an 2 industrial hygienist at Westinghouse who corresponded 3 with Elmer 'Wheeler frequently doesn't ring a bell with 4 you? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Okay. Mr. Papageorge, can almost any 7 industrial chemical, if there is excessive exposure. 8 cause death? 9 MR. OAAS: Gee, I object to the form of 10 the question. 11 A. Certainly. 12 Q. Have there been cases reported where drinking 13 too much water can cause death? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Anything that's excessive exposure can result 16 in adverse circumstances? 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. And PCBs -- 19 MR. OAAS: I object to all these leading 20 questions. 21 Q. PCBs are a chlorinated hydrocarbon; is that 22 correct? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. And are all chlorinated hydrocarbons known 25 generally to act upon the liver if there is -- if www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI500 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 558 1 there is excessive exposure? 2 A. That's the general understanding, yes. 3 Q. The EPA has subpoena power; do they not. 4 Mr. Papageorge? 5 A. My understanding is they do have that. 6 Q. And Congress has subpoena power, too; do they 7 not? 8 A. Certainly. 9 Q. Did any governmental entity to your 10 knowledge, be it Congressman Ryan, be it the EPA, be 11 it some other member of Congress, ever subpoena 12 Monsanto>'s customer records? 13 A. No. 14 Q. And in relation to the Interdepartmental Task 15 Force report that was published in May 1972, that ' s 16 Exhibit 72, did Monsanto provide production and PCB 17 use information in relation to the public -- in 18 reference to the publication of that report? 19 A. I think, yes, they did. 20 Q. In fact, I think if we took the time to 21 examine the report there would be information in there 22 that -- discussing information provided by Monsanto. 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. Finally, let me hand you a copy of 25 Exhibit 30, that's Plaintiff's Exhibit 30, which www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI501 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 559 1 during your earlier deposition was identified on the 2 record as "Ambio, The PCB Story" by Soren Jensen, a 3 publication that didn't occur until 1972. Can you 4 please read into the record the first paragraph of 5 Soren Jensen's article called "The PCB Story" that was 6 published in "Ambio" in 1972? 7 A. "PCB pollution in nature was discovered at a 8 rather late date, but considering the circumstances 9 it's perhaps surprising that it was discovered at 10 all. " 11 MS. RUTTER: Thank you . Let's go off the 12 record for a minute. 13 MR. OAAS: I have one question. 14 MS. RUTTER: Okay. 15 EXAMINATION 16 QUESTIONS BY MR. OAAS: 17 Q. Mr. Papageorge, isn't DDT a chlorinated 18 hydrocarbon? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And Monsanto manufactured chlorinated 21 hydrocarbons; correct? 22 A. Yeah. 23 MR. OAAS: That's all I have. 24 MR. SHAW: You want to go off the record 25 for a second? www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI502 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 560 1 MS. RUTTER: Let's go off the record for a 2 second. 3 MR. SHAW: We are off the record at 4:38 4 p .m. 5 (Whereupon, there was a brief recess.) 6 MR. SHAW: We are back on the record at 7 4:40 p.m. 8 MS. RUTTER: And I believe all counsel 9 have agreed that our questioning is done other than 10 I'm going to go over some exhibit foundations with 11 Mr. Papageorge, but we've agreed to do that off the 12 video tape. 13 MR. SHAW: This concludes the video 14 portion -- video tape portion of the deposition of 15 William Papageorge. We are off the video record at 16 4:40 p.m. 17 MR. OAAS: I'm not going to stipulate for 18 the record that something might come up where 19 plaintiffs would want to seek to additionally depose 20 Mr. Papageorge. I can stipulate we're done for today. 21 MS. RUTTER: You know, people do that. 22 People do what they are going to do. 23 Faith, let's go off the record for a 24 minute. 25 THE REPORTER: Okay. www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI503 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 561 1 (Whereupon, there was an off-the-record 2 discussion.) 3 EXAMINATION 4 QUESTIONS BY MS. RUTTER: 5 Q. Mr. Papageorge, is Exhibit M-l a Monsanto 6 business record? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. It's on Monsanto letterhead? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. It's dated May 1982. That's a date when you 11 were still employed by Monsanto? 12 A. Yes. 13 MR. OAAS: Well, if you want to just go 14 through that, I'm just going to reserve for the record 15 any objections I have to those exhibits in terms of 16 foundation, so I don't have to keep interrupting if 17 that's okay with you. 18 MS. RUTTER: That's fine. 19 MR. OAAS: You want to do the same action, 20 Steve? 21 MR. BROWN: Say it again, Torger. 22 MR. OAAS: Are you going to reserve 23 objections? We have about a thousand exhibits -- 24 well, not a thousand, but a hundred exhibits we're 25 going to go through that we haven't discussed yet, and www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI504 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 562 1 I just wanted to put on the record that I'm going to 2 reserve any and all objections I have to these 3 exhibits just in the interest of saving some time here 4 so I don't have to object for every one, and I just 5 wanted to know if you guys wanted to do the same thing 6 or not. 7 MR. DAVIS: Well, obviously we haven't 8 even seen them. 9 MR. OAAS: Well, that's why I was giving 10 you the opportunity. 11 MS. RUTTER: Actually, most of them 12 have -- most, if not all of them, have been produced. 13 MR. DAVIS: They may have been produced -- 14 MS. RUTTER: I appreciate you don't have 15 the volumes. I 'm sorry . I didn't hear that. We were 16 talking over each other 17 MR. DAVIS: I said they may have been 18 produced at some point, but I'm not looking at them 19 now. 20 MS. RUTTER: I understand. 21 MR. DAVIS: All I've got are the ones that 22 Torger used at nis prior deposition of Mr. Papageorge. 23 MR. OAAS: So you're reserving your 24 obj ections ? 25 MR. DAVIS: Yeah. I don't know I'll have www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI505 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 563 1 any objections, but I certainly won't give them away 2 sight unseen. 3 MR. OAAS: Steve? 4 MR. BROWN: Yeah. Same with us. We'll 5 reserve our objections. 6 BY MS. RUTTER: 7 Q. All right. And Exhibit M-l, Mr. Papageorge, 8 was prepared by Larry O'Neill of Monsanto Company? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And he was an employee of Monsanto Company at 11 the time? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And he prepared this in the ordinary course 14 of his duties? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Exhibit M-4 was -- is a document dated 17 December 1st, 1966, from David Wood of Monsanto 18 Europe, Brussels, Belgium. You personally knew David 19 Wood? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Do you know this to be a Monsanto business 22 record? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. M-6 is a memo prepared by D.V.N. Hardy of 25 London addressed to D. Wood, Brussels, dated www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI506 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 564 1 December 9th, 1966. Do you recognize this as a 2 business record of Monsanto Europe? 3 A. I do. 4 Q. And you personally knew D.V.N. Hardy? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And he prepared this memo in the ordinary 7 course of his business as an employee of Monsanto 8 Europe? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. Exhibit M-8 is a memo from Gene Wilde, 11 St. Louis General Offices, to R. Emmet Kelly, M.D., 12 dated February 13th, 1967? 13 A. Uh-huh. 14 Q. And you recognize this as a Monsanto business 15 record? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Prepared in the ordinary course of business 18 of the Monsanto employee. Gene Wilde, who prepared it? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And you personally know Dr. or knew Dr. Emmet 21 Kelly, M .D., the recipient of the memo? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Exhibit M-9 is a Monsanto business record? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. By D.V.N. Hardy to the Government Chemist, www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI507 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 565 1 the Government Laboratory in London? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Dated February 20th, 1967? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And Mr. Hardy prepared this memo in the 6 ordinary course of Monsanto Europe's business? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Let's go through here and establish all of 9 the Monsanto London and Monsanto -- Mr. Papageorge, to 10 kind of shorten this up a bit, let's just establish 11 for the record which documents are Monsanto business 12 records. We're now on Exhibit M-10. Is that a 13 business record of Monsanto Europe? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. It's dated February 23rd, 1967? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And, once again, D.V.N. Hardy is an employee 18 or was at the time of Monsanto Europe with whom you 19 were personally familiar? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Is Exhibit M-ll a Monsanto business record? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And, again, it was prepared by David Wood of 24 Monsanto Europe from Brussels, Belgium, and sent to 25 Dr. R. Emmet Kelly at Monsanto U.S.? www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI508 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 566 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. On or about February 22nd, 1967? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. And you recognize this as a Monsanto business 5 record? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Exhibit M-12, is this a Monsanto business 8 record? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Prepared by Dr. R. Emmet Kelly, M.D., who you 11 personally knew? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And it's to Dr. D.V.N. Hardy in London? 14 A. It is. 15 Q. It's on Monsanto letterhead? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And it's dated February 23rd, 1967? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. And you know this to be a business record of 20 Monsanto? 21 A. I do. 22 Q. Exhibit M-14 is dated February 27th, 1967. 23 It's signed by David Wood. It's on Monsanto Europe 24 S.A. letterhead, and it's to D.V.N. Hardy in London. 25 Do you recognize this to be a Monsanto Europe business www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI509 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 567 1 record 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. -- Mr. Papageorge? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And you personally knew David Wood? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Exhibit M-15 is from D.V.N. Hardy, London, to 8 D. Wood in Brussels, dated March 3rd, 1967. Do you 9 recognize this exhibit, Mr. Papageorge, as a business 10 record of Monsanto Europe? 11 A. You mentioned D. Wood. Carbon copy. Yes. 12 Q. And that's because it's Brussels, Ruabon and 13 London, all European locations? 14 A. Uh-huh. 15 Q. Exhibit M-16, do you recognize this to be a 16 business record of Monsanto? 17 A. I do. 18 Q. And it's prepared on or about March 27th, 19 1967? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. It's an Outbound Shipping Report of the type 22 of which you're very familiar, and you believe this to 23 be an authentic Monsanto business record? 24 A. It is. 25 Q. Exhibit M-20 is a memo from approximately www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI510 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 568 1 January 1968 with R. E. Keller listed as one of the 2 authors. Do you recognize this to be a business 3 record of Monsanto in the U.S.? 4 A. I do. 5 Q. And you personally knew Dr. Keller, who 6 prepared it? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Exhibit M-21, dated July 18th, 1968, with the 9 names E. Wheeler, Scott Tucker, P. Benignus, and R. H. 10 Munch associated with it. Do you recognize this as a 11 Monsanto -- 12 A. I do. 13 Q. As a Monsanto U.S. business record? 14 A. I do. 15 Q. And you knew at one time all four of the 16 authors of this memo? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Exhibit M-22 is dated January 8th, 1968, and 19 it is a memo from S. A. Heininger to C. E. 20 Anagnostopoulos dated January 8th, 1968. Do you 21 recognize this to be a business record of Monsanto 22 U. S.? 23 A. I do. 24 Q. Exhibit M-29 is dated December 9th, 1968. 25 It's from W. R. Richard to E. Wheeler. You knew both www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI511 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 569 1 W. R. Richard and E. Wheeler? 2 A. I did. 3 Q. You recognize this to be a Monsanto business 4 record? 5 A. Yes, I do. 6 Q. Exhibit M-29.1 is from Elmer Wheeler to 7 Dr. Joseph C. Calandra of Industrial Bio-Test 8 Laboratories, dated December 20th, 1968. Do you 9 recognize this as a Monsanto business record? 10 A. Yes, I do. 11 Q. And Exhibit M-30 is the March 3rd, 1969 12 letter from Elmer P. Wheeler to a distribution list 13 concerning the "San Francisco Chronicle" article. Do 14 you recognize this to be a business record of 15 Monsanto? 16 A. I do. 17 Q. Do you recognize Exhibit M-31, March 3rd, 18 1969, a press release as a business record of 19 Monsanto? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Do you recognize Exhibit M-32, March 7th, 22 1969, by W. R. Richard and Monsanto's Research Center 23 as being a business record of Monsanto? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Prepared by Mr. Richard in the ordinary www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001512 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 570 1 course of his duties? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Exhibit M-33, dated March 18th, 1969, is a 4 letter from Elmer Wheeler to Professor Gunnar Widmark. 5 Do you recognize this as a business record of 6 Monsanto? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Dr. -- Exhibit M-34 is signed by Elmer 9 Wheeler to Dr. Joseph Calandra, dated April 15th, 10 1969. Do you recognize this Exhibit M-34 as being a 11 business record of Monsanto? 12 A. I do. 13 Q. Exhibit M-35 is dated April 30th, 1969. It 14 is from a Mr. Mainprize in Ruabon, which I believe is 15 in Whales? 16 A. It is. 17 Q. To R. A. Baxter, also of Ruabon, and CC R. A. 18 Lidgett in Ruabon? 19 A. Right. 20 Q. Do you recognize this document as being a 21 business record of Monsanto Europe? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Created by Mr. Mainprize on or about the date 24 it bears , April 3rd, 1968, in the ordinary course of 25 business? www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI513 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 571 1 A. ' 69. 2 Q. '69, thank you. In the ordinary course of 3 business? 4 A. Yes. 5 MR. OAAS: Can we just stop for a minute? 6 MS. RUTTER: Sure. 7 (Whereupon, there was an off-the-record 8 discussion.) 9 Q. Exhibit M-36, Mr. Papageorge, do you 10 recognize this as being a business record of Monsanto? 11 It says "Rough Draft - 6-12-69" by R. E. Keller? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. "Notes From European Trip"? 14 A. I do. 15 Q. I've got three more in this notebook. 16 Mr. Papageorge, do you recognize Exhibit M-38, dated 17 August 25th, 1969, as a business record of Monsanto 18 from E. V. John to Dr. Martin Farrar? 19 A. I do. 20 Q. Do you recognize Exhibit M-39, dated 21 October 27th, 1969, as being a business record of 22 Monsanto prepared by Howard S. Bergen? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Do you recognize Exhibit M-40 as being a 25 business record of Monsanto that purports to have been www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001514 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 572 1 prepared by Mr. Bergen on October 30th, 1969? 2 A. Uh-huh. I do. 3 Q. And the final document in this notebook, the 4 minutes of the meeting of the Corporate Development 5 Committee dated November 17th, 1969, Exhibit M-41, do 6 you recognize this as being an authentic Monsanto 7 Company business record? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And, Mr. Papageorge, all of those Monsanto 10 exhibit numbers, be it Monsanto U.S. or Monsanto 11 London that I just read into the record, had you seen 12 all of those documents shortly after you commenced 13 your job as Director of Environmental Control 14 January 2nd, 1970? 15 A. When you use the word "shortly after" -- 16 Q. Sometime during the year 1970. 17 A. Yes, I did. 18 Q. There wasn't any document in here that you 19 thought you were seeing for the first time? 20 A. That's true. 21 Q. Right. And the non-Monsanto documents that 22 are in this notebook. Exhibit A, are documents that, 23 although they are not Monsanto business records 24 because they are not authored by Monsanto, are 25 documents that were in Monsanto's file when you www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI515 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 573 1 started your job -2 A. Yes. 3 Q. - - as Environmental Control Manager in 1970? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. Okay. And I think for the rest of the 6 records , given the volumes of notebooks that we have 7 sitting around here and the lateness of the hour, we 8 will simply stipulate or submit an affidavit, but it's 9 routine business records foundations. 10 MR. OAAS: Okay. For the record, we'll 11 respond at that time. 12 MS. RUTTER: Any comments from Mr. Brown 13 or Mr. Davis? 14 MR. DAVIS: Max Davis. I have no comments. 15 MR. BROWN: Steve Brown. I don't either. 16 MS. RUTTER: He will review. 17 MR. DAVIS: Are we off the record now? 18 MS. RUTTER: We're about to be. He will 19 review the transcript and sign it. We can now go off 20 the record unless you want to stay on. 21 MR. DAVIS: No. 22 23 24 25 www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMON001516 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 574 1 STATE OF MISSOURI 2 3 SS. 4 CITY OF ST. LOUIS 5 6 I, Faith A. Olliges, a Notary Public in 7 and for the State of Missouri, duly commissioned, 8 gualified and authorized to administer oaths and to 9 certify to depositions, do hereby certify that 10 pursuant to Notice in the cause now pending and 11 undetermined in the Circuit Court of the City of St. 12 Louis, to be used in the trial of said cause in said 13 court, I was attended at the offices of Husch & 14 Eppenberger, 190 Carondelet Plaza, Clayton, Missouri, 15 by the aforesaid witness; and by the aforesaid 16 attorneys; on May 17, 2007. 17 That the said witness, being of sound mind 18 and being by me first carefully examined and duly 19 cautioned and sworn to testify the truth, the whole 20 truth, and nothing but the truth in the case 21 aforesaid, thereupon testified as is shown in the 22 foregoing transcript, said testimony being by me 23 reported in Stenotype and caused to be transcribed 24 into typewriting, and that the foregoing pages 25 correctly set forth the testimony of the www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI517 1 aforementioned witness, together with the questions 2 propounded by counsel and remarks and objections of 3 counsel thereto, and is in all respects a full, true, 4 correct and complete transcript of the questions 5 propounded to and the answers given by said witness; 6 that the signature of the deponent was not waived by 7 agreement of counsel. 8 I further certify that I am not of 9 counsel or attorney for either of the parties to said 10 suit, not related to nor interested in any of the 11 parties or their attorneys. 12 Witness my hand and notarial seal at 13 St. Louis, Missouri, this 30th day of May, 2007. 14 My Commission expires April 20, 2009. 15 16 17 18 Notary Public in and for the 19 State of 20 21 22 23 24 25 Gore Perry Gateway Lipa Baker Dunn & Butz St. Louis 314.241.6750 St. Charles 636.940.0926 575 LEXOLDMONOOI518 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 576 1 Gore Perry Gateway & Lipa Reporting 2 3 4 Ms. Carol A. Rutter 5 Husch & Eppenberger 6 190 Carondelet Plaza 7 Clayton, Missouri 63105 8 9 Enclosed please find the Original Signature pages 10 and errata sheets for the deposition of: 11 William Papageorge, Vol. Ill taken 5/17/2007 in the case of: 12 Marty Paulson, et al. vs. Monsanto Chemical Company, etc , et al. 13 Please read your copy of the transcript, noting 14 any corrections on the enclosed erratta sheets. 15 and return all pages for filing in court to: 16 Ms. Carol A. Rutter 17 Husch & Eppenberger 18 190 Carondelet Plaza 19 Clayton, Missouri 63105 20 21 Your prompt cooperation will be appreciated. 22 Sincerely, 23 24 Gore Perry Gateway & Lipa Reporting 25 www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI519 PAULSON v. MONSANTO 1 Page Line Should Read: 2 Reason for change: 3 4 Page Line Should Read: 5 Reason for change: 6 7 Page Line Should Read: 8 Reason for change: 9 10 Page Line Should Read: 11 Reason for change: 12 13 Page Line Should Read: 14 Reason for change: 15 16 Page Line Should Read: 17 Reason for change: 18 19 Page Line Should Read: 20 Reason for change: 21 22 Page Line Should Read: 23 Reason for change: 24 25 WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 577 www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI520 D<poSi b cm 0~f lit Z<9<7~7 1 Page Line Should Read: .. i ^ Sjo IT 'LUa 2 Reason for change: 3 S pc lh ntj 4 Page Line Should Read: 5 Reason for change: 6 7 Page Line Should Read: 8 Reason for change: 9 10 Page Line Should Read: 11 Reason for change: 12 13 Page Line Should Read: 14 Reason for change: 15 16 Page Line Should Read: 17 Reason for change: 18 19 Page Line Should Read: 20 Reason for change: 21 22 Page Line Should Read: 23 Reason for change: 24 25 Gore Perry Gateway Lipa Baker Dunn & Butz St. Louis 314.241.6750 St. Charles 636.940.0926 578 LEXOLDMONOOI521 _______________________________________________________________________________________ 579 1 Comes now the witness, William Papageorge, Vol. Ill, 2 and having read the the foregoing transcript 3 of the deposition taken on the 5/17/2007, 4 acknowledges by signature hereto that it is a 5 true and accurate transcript of the testimony given 6 on the date hereinabove mentioned. 7 8 9 10 William Papageorge, Vol. Ill 11 12 Subscribed and sworn to me before this SZ_13 day of ______,2007. 14 My Commission expires 15 16 AMANDA RUSSO Notary Public, State of Missouri St, Louis County 17 % V*s*Vv Commission # 06978286 Commlulon Expires December 05, 2010 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Gore Perry Gateway Lipa Baker Dunn & Butz St. Louis 314.241.6750 St. Charles 636.940.0926 LEXOLDMONOOI522 PAULSON v. MONSANTO WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 580 1 COURT MEMO 2 34 5 Marty Paulson, et al. vs. Monsanto Chemical Company, etc.. et al. 6 DV-04-55 7 8 CERTIFICATE OF OFFICER AND 9 STATEMENT OF DEPOSITION CHARGES 10 11 DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE, VOL. Ill 12 TAKEN ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANT 13 5/17/2007 14 Name and address of person or firm having custody of 15 the original transcript: 16 Carol A. Rutter 17 Husch & Eppenberger 18 190 Carondelet Plaza, Suite 600 19 St. Louis, MO 63105 20 21 22 23 24 25 www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI523 PAULSON v. MONSANTO 1 ORIGINAL TRANSCRIPT TAXED IN FAVOR OF: 2 Carol A. Rutter 3 Husch & Eppenberger 4 190 Carondelet Plaza, Suite 600 5 St. Louis, MO 63105 6 Total: 7 1 ONE COPY - TAXED IN FAVOR OF: 8 Torger S. Oaas 9 Oaas, Law Office of Torger S. 10 P.O. Box 76, 11 Lewistown, MT 59457 12 Total: 13 1 ONE COPY - TAXED IN FAVOR OF: ' 14 Stephen R. Brown 15 Garlington, Lohn & Robinson, PLLP 16 P.O. Box 7909, 17 Missoula, MT 59807 18 Total: 19 1 ONE COPY - TAXED IN FAVOR OF: 20 Maxon Davis 21 Davis, Hatley, Haffeman & Tighe, P. 22 P.O. Box 2103, 23 Great Falls, MT 59403 24 Total: WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE 5/17/2007 Page 581 www.goreperry.com (314) 241-6750 (314) 241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company schedule@goreperry.com f864d9aa-2926-4b64-a0bc-f871a17d7b93 LEXOLDMONOOI524 1 2 Upon delivery of transcripts, the above 3 charges had not been paid. It is anticipated 4 that all charges will be paid in the normal course 5 of business. 6 GORE PERRY GATEWAY & LI PA REPORTING COMPANY 7 515 Olive Street, Suite 700 8 St. Louis, Missouri 63101 9 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set 10 my hand and seal on this day of 11 Commission expires 12 13 Notary Public 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Gore Perry Gateway Lipa Baker Dunn & Butz St. Louis 314.241.6750 St. Charles 636.940.0926 582 LEXOLDMONOOI525