Document DG1d3eV7eVVXx1wvYjzeMgo35
ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210
1
1 ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT
2 ***
3 The stenographic notes taken during these
4 proceedings have been translated into their English
5 equivalent through a computerized process called
6 realtime translation.
7 The following realtime draft is unedited and
8 uncertified and may contain untranslated stenographic
9 symbols, an occasional reporter's note, misspelled
10 proper names, and nonsensical word combinations. All
11 such entries will be corrected on the final certified
12 transcript. There may also be discrepancies regarding
13 page and line numbers when comparing the realtime
14 screen, the rough draft, and the final transcript.
15 Consequently, your use of the realtime draft is solely
16 for case preparation purposes and is not to be used or
17 cited in any court proceedings or to distribute to any
18 other parties.
19 We recommend that this rough draft version of
20 the transcript, whether in hard copy or disk format, be
21 destroyed upon receipt of the final certified
22 transcript.
23 * * *
24
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the videotaped
2
1 deposition of Scotty Patrick taken in the matter of 2 Robert Cole, et al., vs. Ashland, Incorporated, for the 3 United States District Court, Eastern District of
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ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210
10 MR. CHILTON: And, Eric, just so -- you're
11 referring to the video telephone deposition notice of
12 Scott Patrick; correct?
13 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
14 MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you.
15 Exhibit marked.
16 MR. CHILTON: Okay.
17 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
18 Q.
Okay. Sir, if you turn the page to page 2,
19 did you bring anything in response to number 1?
20 A.
Yes.
21 Q.
Okay. What did you bring in response to
22 number 1?
23 A.
The documents that I reviewed prior to me
24 preparing the written statement and also some of the
4
1 documents that I looked at after that.
2 Q.
And what documents did you review prior to
3 you preparing the statement?
4 A.
I have them here, right here.
5 Q.
Are we talking a large amount of documents?
6 What are we talking about?
7 A.
Oh, it's five or six sets of documents.
8 Q.
Okay. And how thick in inches are we
9 talking?
10 A.
Two inches.
11 MR. WILLIAMS: Okay. Well, we will mark
12 that as 1A, that stack.
13 MR. CHILTON: If you'd hand that stack to
14 the reporter.
Page 3
ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210 4 Louisiana, case number 09-6584. This deposition is
5 being held at Ashland, Incorporated, in Columbus, Ohio,
6 on September 22nd, 2010, at 12:30 p.m.
7 My name is Jessy Smulski, and I am the
8 videographer. The reporter is Kendra Johnston.
9 Counsel will now introduce themselves for
10 the record.
11 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes. Eric Williams for the
12 plaintiffs.
13 MR. CHILTON: And Larry Chilton on behalf of
14 Ashland, Inc.
15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The reporter will now
16 swear in the witness.
17 Witness sworn.
18 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
19 Q.
Hell, Mr. Patrick. Can you hear me?
20 A.
Yes.
21 Q.
Okay. Great. Would you please state your
22 full name and address for the record?
23 A.
Scotty Patrick. Legal address is 8575
24 Danbury Boulevard, Apartment 204, Naples, Florida
3
1 34120.
2 Q.
And what is your date of birth, sir?
3 A.
May 4th, 1935.
4 Q.
Okay. Did you receive a notice of
5 deposition for your deposition here today?
6 A.
Yes, I did.
7 MR. WILLIAMS: Okay. Could you please hand
8 it to the court reporter so we can mark that as number
9 one.
Page 2
ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210 15 Exhibit marked
16 THE WITNESS: Okay.
17 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
18 Q.
Okay. Were there any exhibits to your
19 report?
20 A.
No.
21 Q.
Okay. Did you bring any scientific or
22 medical literature that you relied on in forming your
23 opinions?
24 A.
Nothing really medical. The scientific,
5
1 some of the documents that are in this first batch here
2 could be classified as scientific.
3 Q.
Okay. Were there any journal articles in
4 that stack?
5 A.
Yes.
6 Q.
Okay. Fair enough. Have you brought a list
7 of all cases that you have testified either at a
8 deposition or trial in the last four years?
9 A.
I did not -- I have not done any.
10 Q.
Okay. You have not served as an expert in
11 any other cases in the last four years?
12 A.
No.
13 Q.
Have you ever served as an expert in
14 litigation?
15 A.
Yes. Well, I've served as a witness. I'm
16 not sure of the classification.
17 Q.
Okay. Do you understand what I mean by
18 expert witness?
19 A.
Maybe you could explain.
20 Q.
Where you offer expert witness opinions in Page 4
ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210
21 litigation.
22 A.
Well, I would -- I can offer information
23 based on my experience and training and so forth.
24 Somebody will have to determine whether that's expert
6
1 or not.
2 Q.
Okay. Did you bring a statement itemizing
3 the total amount of work you've done in this case?
4 A.
Well, in what regard? I'm --
5 Q.
An invoice for your services, compensation.
6 A.
I do not have an invoice, no.
7 Q.
Have you charged for services in this case?
8 A.
No.
9 Q.
Do you plan on charging for services in this
10 case?
11 A.
I don't know.
12 Q.
You don't know? Have you discussed your
13 hourly rate or your fees for services offered in this
14 case with anyone?
15 A.
No.
16 Q.
Okay. Did you bring your file in this case?
17 A.
What file? The stuff I reviewed before the
18 written -- the written statement and also what I've
19 reviewed since, I brought that, yes.
20 Q.
And that would be in 1A that we already
21 discussed?
22 A.
Yes, before.
23 Q.
Okay. All communications between you and
24 the attorneys in this case, did you -- did you bring
7
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ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210
6 exposure of benzene, toluene. I would not classify it
7 as being an expert witness.
8 Q.
Okay. And how many times have you served as
9 a witness for that?
10 A.
Three, four times.
11 Q.
Okay. Remember the names of the cases?
12 A.
No.
13 Q.
Okay. And I think you said earlier you do
14 not feel that you have served as an expert witness in
15 the past; is that correct?
16 A.
I was never classified as an expert witness.
17 Q.
Fair enough. Did you bring any rough drafts
18 of your report?
19 MR. CHILTON: And, Eric, let's refer to
20 those as 1C because that's what I was just referring
21 to, and we'll do the same thing with that. Okay?
22 MR. WILLIAMS: Okay. And is that here today
23 or he didn't bring that?
24
MR. CHILTON: He did not bring that, and I'm
9
1 going to have to see if we have it and print it.
2 MR. WILLIAMS: Okay.
3 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
4 Q.
Did you write your report in this case, sir?
5 A.
I did not do the actual first draft, but I
6 did review the first draft, and this was prepared based
7 upon conversations I had with my attorney, and his
8 office prepared a first draft. I reviewed it, made
9 corrections, submitted them back to them. They
10 corrected it, and I think there might have been one
Page 7
ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210
1 anything in response to number 7?
2 A.
The communications that I had were basically
3 relating to the preparation of my written statement.
4 Q.
And did you bring those with you here today?
5 A.
I do not have them, no.
6 Q.
Okay. Were you provided this notice and
7 told that you were to bring those communications?
8 MR. CHILTON: Mr. Williams, for the
9 record --
10 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
11 MR. CHILTON: The notice, as you know, just
12 came in a couple days ago. I don't believe that there
13 are any significant communications other than just the
14 report and any transmittals in between, but to the
15 extent that there are, why don't we just refer to those
16 as Exhibit 1B, and I will provide those to you, and we
17 can add those to the transcript.
18 MR. WILLIAMS: Okay. Actually, if you could
19 provide them straight to the court reporter, that would
20 be -- that would be great.
21 MR. CHILTON: We would be happy to do so,
22 and I'll make sure that happens within the next day.
23 MR. WILLIAMS: Okay.
24
8
1 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
2 Q.
Have you served as an expert witness in any
3 other cases where there's allegation of exposure to
4 benzene or toluene?
5 A.
I've served as a witness relative to Page 6
ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210 11 more iteration where we had to make some further
12 corrections. So in --
13 Q.
And who was your -- I'm sorry.
14 A.
So, in essence, the answer is I provided all
15 the content for the thing, but I did not physically
16 myself prepare it other than making the corrections.
17 Q.
And you said you provided it to your
18 attorney. Who is your attorney?
19 A.
Mr. Chilton here.
20 Q.
Okay. So you provided -- they prepared the
21 first rough draft and then sent it to you for
22 revisions, and you sent it back until you had a final
23 copy; correct?
24 A.
That's correct.
10
1 Q.
Okay. Did you bring a copy of your CV with
2 you today?
3 A.
No, I did not.
4 Q.
Okay. Do you have a copy of your report
5 with you?
6 A.
Yes.
7 MR. WILLIAMS: Okay. Let's mark that as 1D.
8 And if you could turn to the signature page and tell me
9 if your copy is signed.
10 MR. CHILTON: Eric, for the record, we had a
11 signed copy sent to John that it was my understanding
12 he was going to provide to you before the deposition.
13 The copy that is here today is signed.
14 MR. WILLIAMS: Okay. So we'll mark that as
15 1D, sir.
16 Exhibit marked. Page 8
ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210
17 Q.
Okay. Let's move on. What is your
18 educational background, sir?
19 A.
I have a degree in chemical engineering,
20 B.S., and I also have a Master's of Science degree in
21 chemical engineering.
22 Q.
Okay. Who do you currently work for?
23 A.
I'm retired.
24 Q.
Do you work for Ashland in any capacity at
11
1 this point?
2 A.
The only official relationship I have with
3 Ashland at this time is -- is I did enter into a
4 consulting agreement with them approximately a year ago
5 which was signed, but at this point it's -- I have not
6 really done anything in the consulting, and the
7 question is what I'm doing today, does that fall under
8 that agreement and will I be paid, and so that's -- I
9 haven't discussed it with anybody, but that --
10 probably, if the case goes to trial, I most likely will
11 be compensated by Ashland under that agreement.
12 Q.
What is your compensation rate in that
13 agreement?
14 A.
I think it was about 150, $160 an hour,
15 something like that, which was basically the rate that
16 I had with Ashland for several years.
17 Q.
Okay. Do you have a copy of that agreement
18 at your house or your office?
19 A.
I probably do, but I don't have it with me.
20 MR. WILLIAMS: Okay. I would like to mark
21 that as Exhibit No. 2 and have Mr. Chilton provide that
Page 9
ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210
2 Q.
And what year was that, sir?
3 A.
2000, so I -- the following year I was
4 pretty much a full-time employee doing some special
5 projects for Ashland.
6 Q.
Did your consulting involve those cases that
7 you served as a witness for Ashland in?
8 A.
No.
9 Q.
Okay. Were you compensated for any of those
10 cases that you served as a witness for Ashland in?
11 A.
No.
12 Q.
Have you been compensated by Ashland since
13 you signed that consulting agreement?
14 A.
No.
15 Q.
Who did you talk to in preparation for your
16 report?
17 A.
Mr. Chilton, Mr. Fitzpatrick, Lisa Delhunt.
18 Q.
And who is Mr. Fitzpatrick?
19 A.
He's an attorney with Cetrulo & Capone
20 Boston.
21 Q.
Got you. And he would be national counsel
22 for Ashland, Inc.?
23 A.
I think so.
24 Q.
Okay. And who is Ms. Delhunt?
14
1 A.
She's a paralegal assistant for Ashland law
2 department.
3 Q.
Can you tell me what year Ashland first
4 started manufacturing toluene?
5 A.
Probably '57, 1957, maybe '58, somewhere in
6 that time frame.
Page 11
ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210 22 to the court reporter. Can you forward that to
23 Mr. Chilton for us?
24
MR. CHILTON: Mr. Williams, we definitely
12
1 will do that.
2 MR. WILLIAMS: Okay.
3 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
4 Q.
How many hours have you put into preparation
5 for your report in this case?
6 A.
Probably -- we've had about three sessions.
7 I would guess about 10 to 15 hours, something like
8 that.
9 Q.
Okay. And how many hours have you put in
10 since you've completed your report in preparation for
11 your deposition today?
12 A.
Three, four.
13 Q.
Okay. All right.
14 A.
Maybe five.
15 Q.
Okay. When you were employed by Ashland,
16 were you employed by Ashland, Inc.?
17 A.
Yes.
18 Q.
And what year did you start you said?
19 A.
1958. Well, I served in the summer of 1957,
20 and I became a full-time employee in July 1, 1958.
21 Q.
Okay. And what year did you retire?
22 A.
2000.
23 Q.
Okay.
24 A.
But I did consult pretty much full time with
13
1 Ashland for about a year after that. Page 10
7 Q.
ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210 Can you tell me what plants they started
8 manufacturing toluene in in '57 or '58?
9 A.
This -- this would have been at our Buffalo
10 refinery in Buffalo, New York.
11 Q.
And what year did they start manufacturing
12 toluene in the Kentucky facility?
13 A.
In the early '60s, probably 1961, '62,
14 somewhere in that time frame.
15 Q.
Okay. Since Ashland began manufacturing
16 toluene in approximately '57, '58, did they produce any
17 other grade besides nitration grade?
18 A.
Not to my knowledge.
19 Q.
Okay. Have you reviewed all the documents
20 to determine if there has ever been production of any
21 other type of toluene besides nitration grade?
22 A.
Of the documents that I reviewed, there's no
23 indication that we produced anything but nitration
24 grade.
15
1 Q.
And the documents that you reviewed, are
2 those the ones you have with you today?
3 A.
Yes.
4 Q.
Where did you get those documents from?
5 A.
I was provided them by Mr. Chilton, the
6 attorney.
7 Q.
Did you make any independent investigation
8 into the archive records of Ashland to determine if
9 there was another grade of toluene ever sold?
10 MR. CHILTON: Object to the form.
11 MR. WILLIAMS: You can answer, sir.
12 A.
I did not personally delve into the records, Page 12
ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210
13 no.
14 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
15 Q.
Do you know if historical records for the
16 sale or the manufacture of toluene from the '60s and
17 '70s exist today with Ashland?
18 A.
I do not know of any records existing, no.
19 Q.
Okay. When did Ashland start selling
20 benzene?
21 A.
Well, it would have been about the time we
22 started producing toluene up at -- up at Buffalo
23 because we produced benzene, toluene and xylene up
24 there.
16
1 Q.
And that would be around '57 or '58?
2 A.
Yes.
3 Q.
Okay. And when did Ashland start producing
4 toluene in Kentucky?
5 A.
At the time that we started up the Udex
6 plant, which would have been in early '60, '61,
7 somewhere in that -- '62, somewhere in that time frame.
8 Q.
When did Ashland start testing toluene for
9 benzene content that they manufactured?
10 A.
Well, that would have been when we started
11 our production up in Buffalo, which would have been
12 '57, '58.
13 Q.
And can you tell me what type of testing
14 methods were used in '57 or '58 to determine the
15 benzene content of toluene in '57 and '58?
16 A.
I do not have any direct knowledge of that
17 particular testing because that was at the Buffalo
Page 13
ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210
24 referring to?
18
1 A.
What page was that?
2 Q.
Four, sir.
3 A.
And what line? Where are we?
4 Q.
Okay. Go to the last line before the last
5 paragraph.
6 A.
Okay.
7 Q.
Okay. And it says Ashland chemists who
8 authored some of these documents. What documents are
9 you referring to?
10 A.
These documents were the letters I think
11 that were written to customers asking about the quality
12 of the toluene.
13 Q.
And are those documents in Exhibit 1A?
14 A.
They're in this -- I'm not sure whether this
15 is Exhibit 1A or not, but this is the document I have
16 right here.
17 Q.
Fair enough. What suppliers did Ashland buy
18 toluene from the 1961 to 1994 period?
19 MR. CHILTON: Object to the form.
20 THE WITNESS: May I answer?
21 MR. CHILTON: Yes.
22 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
23 A.
Most of the toluene that we sold through our
24 distribution group was produced by Ashland, but we did
19
1 buy some toluene from other suppliers. Shell comes to 2 mind, maybe Mobile, more infrequently Exxon. And these
Page 15
ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210 18 refinery, and my knowledge of that particular
19 production was -- was based on records that I saw
20 whereas the production at Catlettsburg, I had more
21 direct knowledge.
22 Q.
And can you tell me the name of the testing
23 methods used since 1961 for toluene that contain
24 benzene?
17
1 A.
Well, the basic testing method was what we
2 call the ASTM, or American Society for Testing
3 Materials, testing approach.
4 Q.
And you believe that Ashland was using an
5 ASTM method in 1961 to determine the benzene content of
6 toluene?
7 A.
Well, you -- that particular test does not
8 directly give you the benzene content. It -- it tests
9 for the boiling point, for the color, for the acid wash
10 color, for various other things. It doesn't give you
11 the direct content, but through various correlations,
12 you can show that -- if you have a boiling point that
13 is one degree Celsius or less, then -- then there is a
14 maximum amount of benzene that can be in the toluene.
15 Q.
And would that be like a boiling point
16 diagram that you're referring to?
17 A.
Well, it's -- well, it's called a boiling
18 point curve, and -- and that's a standard ASTM test.
19 Q.
And those are methods that have been in
20 textbooks for decades?
21 A.
Been there for a long time.
22 Q.
Okay. On page 4 of your report, you refer
23 to Ashland chemists authored documents. What are you Page 14
ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210 3 were purchased to fulfill certain specific geographies
4 that we may not be able to, you know, serve
5 economically and so forth, or maybe there's some -- we
6 needed more production than we could produce at any
7 particular time.
8 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
9 Q.
Did Ashland run tests on toluene that was
10 purchased from suppliers since 1961 through 1994?
11 A.
The answer is yes.
12 Q.
And was that done on a routine basis for
13 every shipment?
14 A.
I can't say that specifically because
15 sometimes those products were shipped directly to the
16 distribution location, and that would be their
17 responsibility to test that, and I have indirect
18 knowledge of that, but no direct knowledge.
19 Q.
Okay. Did the distribution locations have
20 laboratories?
21 A.
Yes.
22 Q.
And are you familiar with a distribution
23 location in Jackson, Mississippi?
24 A.
Yes.
20
1 Q.
What year did that business start?
2 A.
I don't know because that was an acquired
3 facility.
4 Q.
When did -- when did Ashland acquire it?
5 A.
Late '60s when we purchased the F.H. Ross
6 Company.
7 Q.
Okay. Prior to the purchase of it sometime
8 in the late '60s, did Ashland sell or supply toluene, Page 16
ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210
9 xylene or benzene to the company that was acquired?
10 A.
You're talking about to that location or --
11 Q.
Yes, sir.
12 A.
-- just the company or what?
13 Q.
Yes, sir, that location.
14 A.
I would -- and this is -- would be based
15 upon the way we ran our business. That would be one of
16 the last locations that we would probably supply out of
17 our toluene produced at our refinery because of the
18 geography, the distance from our production location,
19 and also because of the geography.
20 Q.
And when you say "last," what do you mean by
21 that?
22 A.
Well, as we acquired more and more of the
23 distribution locations, we would over a period of time
24 move our product from Catlettsburg into those
21
1 locations, but this took a period of several years, and
2 Jackson, Mississippi, is on the outer fringe of what we
3 might consider serving out of our Catlettsburg.
4 Q.
Right. But was the company that was
5 acquired doing business with Ashland prior to the
6 acquisition of the distributorship?
7 MR. CHILTON: Object to the form.
8 A.
We were not a big supplier to them prior to
9 the acquisition to my knowledge. They were operating
10 in a geography that was outside our marketing territory
11 at that time, and that was one of the reasons we wanted
12 to purchase them, so that we could have access to that
13 market area.
Page 17
ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210
20 MR. WILLIAMS: I don't think we need to go
21 off the record for this.
22 MR. CHILTON: I'm just asking if you want
23 to.
24
MR. WILLIAMS: That's okay.
23
1 MR. CHILTON: Okay. She can read several
2 pages.
3 You need to go back quite a ways because the
4 difference between the questions about F.H. Ross as a
5 company as opposed to the specific Jackson,
6 Mississippi, location. That's all I was going to
7 suggest, Eric, because I think that's where the
8 confusion lies in terms of where you changed your
9 questioning.
10 MR. WILLIAMS: Okay. Well, we can move on.
11 Disregard, Miss Court Reporter.
12 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
13 Q.
In your report, you make a statement Ashland
14 could not and did not sell benzene, toluene and xylene
15 in drums to any Louisiana customers until the early
16 '70s. Can you explain why you said they could not, and
17 then tell me why they did not?
18 A.
At what particular location? I'm sorry.
19 Q.
Well, you said to customers in Louisiana.
20 I'm just asking you --
21 A.
Oh, okay.
22 Q.
-- why did you opine that they could not and
23 did not?
24 A.
Well, first off, again, it's geography and
Page 19
ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210 14 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
15 Q.
But you did supply chemicals such as
16 toluene, xylene and benzene prior to the acquisition;
17 is that fair to say?
18 MR. CHILTON: Object to the form.
19 A.
My -- I have no information that says that
20 we did, and my recollection is that we did not.
21 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
22 Q.
Okay. Well, earlier you said you were not a
23 big supplier to that location prior to the acquisition.
24 Does that mean you didn't -
22
1 A.
No, no. I said it would be -- I said that
2 it was -- would be one of the last locations that we
3 would provide -- Ashland supplied toluene to.
4 Q.
But after that you said it was not a big --
5 we didn't -- we're not a big supplier to that location
6 prior to the acquisition. If you'd like, I can get the
7 court reporter to read it back.
8 A.
I didn't say that, I don't think.
9 Q.
You didn't mean to say that is what you're
10 saying?
11 MR. CHILTON: I'll object to the form of
12 that question because you are mischaracterizing what he
13 said.
14 MR. WILLIAMS: We can have -- Miss Court
15 Reporter, could you please read that back for the
16 witness?
17 MR. CHILTON: Eric, can we go off the record
18 for a second? I think I can clarify, make it easier.
19 If you want to have her read that, that's fine. Page 18
ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210
24
1 the ability to supply that. Basically, when we produce
2 toluene at Catlettsburg, which is in Kentucky, we would
3 ship that out by tank -- by, again, rail car and by
4 barge, and we did not ship benzene by drums out of our
5 refinery, so -- so we would not be supplying a location
6 with drum material.
7 Q.
Did you supply toluene or benzene or xylene
8 to any distributor in Mississippi or Louisiana prior to
9 1970?
10 A.
I have no knowledge that we did, no.
11 Q.
Do you have any documentation to either
12 prove or disprove that benzene, toluene or xylene was
13 sold or supplied to any distributors in Louisiana or
14 Mississippi prior to 1970?
15 A.
I have no proof that we did, no.
16 Q.
You said "We did not have a drumming
17 operation in Kentucky until 1970."
18 A.
No, we did not have a drumming operation in
19 Kentucky.
20 Q.
Did the distributorships such as the one in
21 Jackson, Mississippi, have the capability to drum
22 solvents such as benzene, toluene and xylene prior to
23 1970?
24
MR. CHILTON: Object to the form of the
25
1 question. I don't know what you mean by
2 distributorships before 1970.
3 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
4 Q.
Mr. Patrick, you testified that there was a Page 20
ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210
5 distributorship in Jackson, Mississippi; is that
6 correct? Ashland?
7 A.
You told me there were, right.
8 Q.
Oh. My question to you is, did that
9 facility have the capability of drumming a bulk solvent
10 such as benzene or toluene prior to 1970?
11 A.
I don't know.
12 Q.
Fair enough.
13 Did Ashland have any distributorships in
14 Louisiana from '62 to '94?
15 A.
In Louisiana?
16 Q.
Yes, sir.
17 A.
Yes.
18 Q.
Can you tell me where those distributorships
19 were located?
20 A.
In Louisiana?
21 MR. CHILTON: For which time frame, Counsel?
22 I'm sorry.
23 MR. WILLIAMS: Any time from 1962 to 1994.
24 A.
These would have been not in the '60s, but
26
1 certainly after -- after we -- up in '94, we definitely
2 had -- well, I think we shut it down, but in Shreveport
3 and Baton Rouge, we had locations.
4 Q.
Was there a specific name for the one in
5 Shreveport?
6 A.
I don't know what name you're asking for.
7 It would be an Ashland distribution facility.
8 Q.
Okay. And can you give me the dates that
9 the Shreveport facility was in operation?
Page 21
ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210
16 Q.
Okay. Can you tell me if the Shreveport
17 facility supplied benzene in the 1980's?
18 A.
Again, I'm speculating because I don't have
19 any direct knowledge on that, but the answer is
20 probably.
21 Q.
Can you -- can you tell me if the Shreveport
22 facility supplied or sold toluene in the '60s?
23 A.
I think the same answer applies. I'd have
24 to speculate and guess, and the answer is I would say
28
1 no.
2 Q.
Can you tell me if the Shreveport facility
3 supplied toluene in the '70s?
4 A.
Again, speculating is maybe.
5 Q.
Okay. Can you tell me if the Shreveport
6 facility supplied toluene in the '80s?
7 A.
Maybe, speculating again.
8 Q.
Can you tell me if the Shreveport facility
9 supplied toluene in the '90s?
10 A.
Again, speculating.
11 Q.
Have you -- Does Ashland have any documents
12 to either prove or disprove whether or not the
13 Shreveport facility sold benzene or toluene at any
14 period from '62 to '94?
15 A.
I have no direct knowledge of that.
16 Q.
Fair enough. Can you tell me what year
17 Ashland sold benzene in drums?
18 A.
Well, we started in 1958 selling benzene. I
19 think most of the benzene sold out of -- out of Buffalo
20 was bulk benzene, but then as we acquired more and more
Page 23
10 A.
ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210 I cannot.
11 Q.
Would it be fair to say in the '60s, '70s,
12 or '80s? Can you give me a decade?
13 MR. CHILTON: I'll object to the form
14 because he's said not in the '60s.
15 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
16 Q.
Can you tell me if the Shreveport facility
17 was in operation in the '70s?
18 A.
Probably.
19 Q.
Okay. Can you tell me if the Shreveport
20 facility was in operation in the '80s?
21 A.
Probably.
22 Q.
Can you tell me if the Shreveport facility
23 was in operation in the '90s?
24 A.
Probably, but most likely, yeah.
27
1 Q.
Okay. Can you tell me if the Shreveport
2 facility supplied benzene in the '70s, '80s and '90s?
3 A.
Well, you're asking a pretty broad time
4 frame. Can you narrow the time frame?
5 Q.
Sure. Okay. Can you tell me if the
6 Shreveport facility supplied benzene in the '60s?
7 MR. CHILTON: And I'll object only because
8 he already said there wasn't a facility in the '60s.
9 A.
To my knowledge, I don't know.
10 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
11 Q.
Okay. Can you tell me if the Shreveport
12 facility supplied or sold benzene in the 1970's?
13 A.
You're asking me to make a guess, and the
14 answer is I -- you know, I can speculate, but I can't
15 give information based on my knowledge. Page 22
ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210 21 of the distribution facilities, then we would have --
22 we would have started selling it in drums, and that
23 would probably be in the late '50s, early '60s, in --
24 in what we would call the heart of America where we had
29
1 a lot of distribution facilities.
2 Q.
Can you tell me what year Ashland started
3 selling toluene in drums?
4 A.
Again, the answer would be the same as for
5 benzene.
6 Q.
Which -- could you give me a date, please?
7 A.
Probably in the early '60s.
8 Q.
Fair enough. Would that be the same answer
9 for xylene?
10 A.
Yes.
11 Q.
Fair enough. Is the Jackson, Mississippi,
12 distributorship still in operation today?
13 A.
I do not know.
14 MR. CHILTON: And just for the record, when
15 you keep saying distributorship, do you mean the IC&S
16 distribution facility? If you could clarify that.
17 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
18 Q.
I assume that's the only facility in the
19 Jackson, Mississippi, area that Ashland owns; Is that
20 correct, Mr. Patrick?
21 A.
That's the only one I'm aware of.
22 Q.
Fair enough.
23 MR. CHILTON: Thank you.
24
30
Page 24
ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210
1 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
2 Q.
In your report, you state that the majority
3 of toluene and xylene sold east of the Mississippi
4 River was produced by Ashland. When you say
5 "majority," can you give me a percentage? Are we
6 talking 60, 50? What percentage are you referring to?
7 A.
Probably -- it would depend on the year, but
8 probably 80 plus percent, maybe close to 90 sometimes.
9 Q.
Okay. What's significant about east of the
10 Mississippi River?
11 A.
Again, it's the economics of serving the
12 market. We -- we were located on the river and we
13 could transport products more readily on the river. It
14 also related to rail transportation. So it's proximity
15 to our supply location.
16 Q.
Well, let me ask you this, Mr. Patrick. Is
17 the Shreveport facility located west of the Mississippi
18 River?
19 A.
That's a good question. I think it probably
20 is. It's right -- the Mississippi River goes right up
21 part of Louisiana and also goes up in Mississippi, so
22 my guess is it would be west of the Mississippi.
23 Q.
Okay. And so what percentage of toluene was
24 purchased west of the Mississippi from suppliers?
31
1 MR. CHILTON: I'll object to the form.
2 A.
It would certainly be more than -- than on
3 the east because, again, for the transportation issue,
4 and you would have to look at, you know, the real west
5 market, California and Arizona and so forth, which
Page 25
ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210
12 frame.
13 Q.
Can you tell me whether or not Ashland sold
14 toluene in truckloads from '62 to '94 in Louisiana?
15 A.
Truckloads?
16 Q.
Yeah, 18-wheelers.
17 MR. CHILTON: I'm just objecting to the very
18 broad time frame. '62 to '94 was your question?
19 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir.
20 MR. CHILTON: Thank you.
21 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
22 Q.
Do you know, sir?
23 A.
I do not know. I would suspect not, but
24 that's again speculating.
33
1 Q.
And the same question for Mississippi. Can
2 you tell me whether or not Ashland sold toluene in
3 truckloads in Mississippi from '62 to '94?
4 MR. CHILTON: Same objection.
5 A.
And my answer would be the same, is I would
6 think not, but that would be a very specific situation
7 where -- where it would require that much quantity.
8 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
9 Q.
Did Ashland sell benzene in truckloads from
10 '62 to '84 in either Louisiana or Mississippi?
11 MR. CHILTON: I'll object to the form. You
12 said '62 to '84. I just want to make sure that you --
13 MR. WILLIAMS: I said '94, but --
14 A.
Well, I can tell you with assurance that we
15 didn't sell it after '77. Well, are you saying
16 truckloads or drums now?
Page 27
ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210 6 would probably be the bigger part of the market, so I
7 would say a very high percentage was purchased.
8 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
9 Q.
Are you aware of whether or not Ashland ever
10 purchased commercial grade toluene from suppliers?
11 A.
I'm not aware of that, no.
12 Q.
Are you aware of whether or not Ashland
13 purchased crude toluene from any of its suppliers?
14 A.
I'm not aware of that, no.
15 Q.
Does Ashland have any paperwork to evidence
16 testing of toluene from its suppliers?
17 A.
Ashland have --
18 Q.
Yes, sir.
19 A.
Yes.
20 Q.
They have current testing data of the actual
21 truck or barge loads of toluene coming in from the
22 suppliers?
23 A.
Well, you're asking me a contemporaneous
24 question, so I -- I haven't looked at the current
32
1 records.
2 Q.
Okay. So as you sit here today, you're not
3 sure one way or the other if they still maintain those
4 records?
5 A.
Well, I can tell you that Ashland had a --
6 had a policy and a procedure of periodically testing
7 products that they purchased, yes.
8 Q.
Did Ashland sell toluene in truckloads, you
9 know, 18-wheeler truckloads, from '62 to '94?
10 A.
Again, you've got a very broad time frame,
11 and the answer would be yes for that very broad time Page 26
ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210 17 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
18 Q.
Truckloads.
19 A.
I don't think we sold -- I could almost say
20 we didn't sell any certainly up in the '80s and '90s,
21 no.
22 Q.
Okay. And you're not certain what year
23 Ashland acquired that property in Jackson, Mississippi;
24 is that correct?
34
1 A.
Well, I think it came when we purchased F.H.
2 Ross Company, which was in the late '60s.
3 Q.
Okay. Fair enough.
4 Sir, what was your methodology used in this
5 case?
6 A.
I'm not sure I understand the question.
7 Q.
Your methodology in preparing your report
8 and offering these expert opinions here today.
9 A.
Well, it was based on my own direct
10 experience plus looking at some of the documents and
11 refreshing my memory with some associates and so forth.
12 Q.
Did you rely on any peer reviewed literature
13 in forming your opinions?
14 A.
Are you talking about scientific documents
15 or --
16 Q.
Yes, sir, like peer reviewed studies in
17 journals.
18 A.
I did not look at any outside, independent
19 studies. I looked at our own records, and I looked at
20 the test methods and those things, and to the extent
21 that they were peer reviewed, why, then yes, but no
22 independent scientific studies, no. Page 28
ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210
23 Q.
What test methods did you review?
24 A.
The ASTM test methods, the military spec, so
35
1 forth.
2 Q.
And did you put those ASTM test methods in
3 your Exhibit 1A pile of documents?
4 A.
Yes.
5 Q.
Okay. Did you perform any tests in
6 preparing for your report?
7 A.
Physical tests?
8 Q.
Yes, sir.
9 A.
No.
10 Q.
When did Ashland first sell benzene in
11 Louisiana?
12 A.
Ashland?
13 Q.
Yes, sir.
14 A.
As -- as labeled as Ashland or selling it
15 through somebody else or what? I guess I'm --
16 Q.
Either.
17 A.
I guess I don't really know.
18 Q.
And the same question. When did Ashland
19 first sell toluene in Louisiana?
20 A.
I don't know.
21 Q.
Would that be the same answer for xylene?
22 A.
Yeah.
23 Q.
How many gallons would a truckload of
24 toluene -- a truckload contain of toluene?
36
1 A.
Well, you could have different varieties, Page 29
ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210
8 drums.
9 A.
We've always had warning labels ever since I
10 joined the company back in '57, '58. The warning
11 labels changed over time as the requirements changed,
12 but, you know, that was a practice when I joined the
13 company.
14 Q.
And can you tell me what year Ashland first
15 created warning labels that went on the 55-gallon drums
16 for benzene?
17 A.
Well, again, it would go back to when
18 they -- when they got into the business for selling
19 benzene.
20 Q.
Which was -- the year?
21 A.
Well, would have been in '57, '58.
22 MR. WILLIAMS: Fair enough I'm going to --
23 Miss Court Reporter, would you hand the witness the
24 toluene warning labels? And we can mark that -- I
38
1 forget. What did you say? The next one should be 3; 2 right? 3 MR. CHILTON: That's fine. Yes. Do you 4 have more than one copy of that or is it just one group 5 exhibit? 6 MR. WILLIAMS: It's just one group exhibit 7 of the toluene labels that were produced in this case. 8 MR. CHILTON: Thank you. Do you know if the 9 set you provided to the reporter has the Bates numbers 10 on them? 11 MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah. Look on the side. 12 MR. CHILTON: Great. Thank you.
Page 31
ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210 2 but up to 4,000 gallons would be a typical, 3,500 maybe
3 to 4,000, depending on the size truck.
4 Q.
Can you tell me whether or not the
5 distributorship in Shreveport, Louisiana, or the one in
6 Jackson, Mississippi, would store toluene that it
7 received from suppliers with toluene manufactured by
8 Ashland in the same storage tank?
9 MR. CHILTON: Object to the form of the
10 question and foundation. He hasn't testified that they
11 received it from suppliers at those two locations.
12 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
13 Q.
Let me rephrase my question. Did the
14 Shreveport facility have storage tanks?
15 A.
Yes.
16 Q.
Did the Jackson, Mississippi, facility have
17 storage tanks?
18 A.
Yes.
19 Q.
Did the Shreveport facility store toluene in
20 the storage tanks at its location?
21 A.
I have no direct knowledge, but I would
22 speculate that they did.
23 Q.
Did the Jackson, Mississippi,
24 distributorship store -- have storage tanks and store
37
1 toluene in their storage tanks?
2 A.
Again, I have no direct knowledge, but I
3 would speculate that they did.
4 Q.
Okay. Can you tell me when Ashland created
5 its first warning label for 55-gallon drums of toluene?
6 A.
Warning label?
7 Q.
Yes, sir, the labels that are affixed on the Page 30
ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210 13 Exhibit marked.
14 THE WITNESS: Okay. I have a bunch of
15 papers in front of me on labeled toluene.
16 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
17 Q.
Yes, sir. These are the labels that were
18 produced in this case on toluene, and I'd like you to
19 look starting with the first one, and can you tell me
20 anywhere on any of these labels do you see the words
21 "nitration grade toluene"?
22 A.
I do not.
23 Q.
Okay. Do you know what a CAS number is?
24 A.
Chemical abstract -- I don't know what the S
39
1 stands for. Chemical abstract series, I guess.
2 Q.
Just tell us in layman's terms, what is that
3 number used for?
4 A.
Well, it's to classify what the chemical is
5 so that the government and the scientific body can --
6 can understand what that chemical is. It's a way of
7 labeling chemicals.
8 Q.
Fair enough. Can you tell me if there is a
9 different CAS number for nitration grade toluene and
10 crude toluene or commercial toluene?
11 A.
The answer is I do not know.
12 Q.
Fair enough. Okay. We can hand that back
13 to the court reporter.
14 I'm going to show you the next document that
15 we should mark as 4, and it's got a Bates stamp
16 starting of 001, and it is the first material safety
17 data sheet that was provided from Ashland in this case.
18 And let me in know when she's marked it. Page 32
ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210
19 MR. CHILTON: She's just starting now.
20 Exhibit marked.
21 THE WITNESS: Okay. I have a material
22 safety data sheet.
23 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
24 Q.
Okay. And it should have a Bates stamp of
40
1 00001; correct?
2 A.
Correct.
3 Q.
Can you tell me the date on that?
4 A.
Where is it?
5 Q.
I can't find it either.
6 A.
The date prepared is blank.
7 Q.
Okay. Can you tell me this? What year did
8 Ashland first prepare material safety data sheets for
9 toluene?
10 A.
Well, this -- if we're talking about the
11 current material safety data sheet, this would have
12 gone back to the -- the requirements that took place
13 when SARA Title -- Title XIII or Title III came into
14 effect, and we've been -- we had been preparing safety
15 data sheets ever since then. We also had safety data
16 sheets prepared before then, but they would not have
17 been according to government requirements. They would
18 have been more to commercial and industrial standards.
19 Q.
Okay. And I guess my question to you is --
20 I know this is the first one that was produced and it's
21 early on. Do you know what decade, approximately, the
22 first MSDS sheet for toluene was produced by Ashland?
23 A.
Probably in the '80s.
Page 33
ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210
4 opposed to a material safety data sheet would not
5 necessarily make that requirement, so I'm -- I don't
6 see that as unusual.
7 Q.
Well, let me ask you this. Do you know
8 whether or not any of the suppliers at the Shell, Sun
9 Oil, Exxon, Mobile sell toluene that is identified on
10 material safety sheets as commercial grade toluene?
11 MR. CHILTON: Object to the form.
12 A.
Are you saying do they sell commercial grade
13 toluene?
14 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
15 Q.
Yes, sir.
16 A.
I don't know.
17 Q.
Do you know if any of the suppliers that
18 I've just mentioned sell crude toluene?
19 MR. CHILTON: Same objection, to form.
20 A.
I don't know. It would not be -- you know,
21 some people do and some people don't.
22 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
23 Q.
Well, my question to you is would there be a
24 different benzene content in nitration grade toluene
43
1 versus commercial grade or crude toluene?
2 A.
There could be.
3 MR. WILLIAMS: Okay. We marked the material
4 safety data sheets?
5 MR. CHILTON: Yes, sir.
6 MR. WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank you.
7 Q.
Do you have any shipping or sales documents
8 dealing with the sale of benzene, toluene or xylene in
Page 35
ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210
24 Q.
Okay. Can you in reviewing this first MSDS
41
1 sheet starting with 00001, do you see the words
2 "nitration grade toluene" anywhere on it?
3 A.
This says aromatic hydrocarbon product
4 class, aromatic content greater than 60 percent. This
5 is a very -- oh, the product name is toluene. Okay.
6 So it would have been a -- a toluene, and the aromatic
7 content was greater than 60 percent, but that doesn't
8 mean that it wouldn't have been a hundred percent, and
9 it goes through a bunch of hazard tests such as
10 flashpoint and lower explosion limit and hazardous
11 decomposition products and so forth, so it's a -- it's
12 a communication tool to determine what hazards you
13 might face in handling and using this material.
14 Q.
Correct. And my question is: Do you see
15 the words "nitration grade toluene" anywhere on that
16 document?
17 A.
I do not.
18 Q.
Okay. If you flip to the second material
19 safety data sheet in that stack, it starts with 00104,
20 and it's dated 9/30/1994, and the product name toluene.
21 Can you tell me whether or not anywhere on that
22 material safety data sheet do you see the words
23 "nigration grade toluene"?
24 A.
Nigration or nitration?
42
1 Q.
Nitration. I misspoke.
2 A.
No. And that's not unusual because that's
3 more for classifying the quality of the product as Page 34
ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210 9 Louisiana from 1962 to 1994?
10 A.
Me personally?
11 Q.
Yes, sir.
12 A.
No.
13 Q.
Have you reviewed any sales or shipping
14 documents that would indicate whether or not benzene
15 was sold in Louisiana from '62 to 1994?
16 A.
No.
17 Q.
Do you know if Ashland maintains any
18 documents, sales or shipping documents, that would
19 evidence whether or not benzene, toluene or xylene was
20 sold in Louisiana from 1962 to 1994?
21 A.
I do not know.
22 Q.
Does Ashland have a document retention
23 policy?
24 A.
Yes.
44
1 Q.
And what is your understanding of that
2 policy?
3 A.
Well, it determines the various documents
4 that are to be retained and those that are -- and the
5 time frame you're supposed to retain those, and it also
6 determines how you are to dispose of them whenever the
7 time has expired, and this -- it's different for every
8 kind of different document. There's a whole litany
9 of -- of tests for when you keep and when you don't
10 keep.
11 Q.
Let me ask you this. What's the retention
12 period for sales or shipping documents of chemicals
13 such as benzene and toluene?
14 A.
I don't know. Page 36
ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210
15 Q.
Is it your understanding there's a two-year
16 period for documents at this point?
17 A.
I just said --
18 MR. CHILTON: Object to the form.
19 A.
I just said I don't know.
20 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
21 Q.
If I told you Buddy Whitlock just
22 testified -- let me ask. Do you know a gentleman named
23 William Whitlock?
24 A.
Yes.
45
1 Q.
Okay. If I told you Mr. Whitlock just
2 testified today that there's a two-year document
3 retention policy, do you have any reason to disagree
4 with his testimony?
5 MR. CHILTON: Object to the form.
6 A.
I -- you know, as I said, I don't know
7 anything about that. Mr. Whitlock has his -- you know,
8 he has pretty good knowledge of that, so --
9 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
10 Q.
Fair enough.
11 A.
You'll have to ask him.
12 Q.
Do you have one piece of paper which is an
13 Ashland document that says Ashland only purchased
14 nitration grade toluene from suppliers for the '62 to
15 '94 period?
16 A.
Well, that's kind of an awful broad
17 question. I can tell you that we purchased in the time
18 frame you're talking about nitration grade because
19 that's what we produced in our refinery, and the
Page 37
ScottyPatrickDepoRoughDraft92210 20 distribution units were purchasing the same quality of
21 material because the petrochemical division which I had
22 responsibility for did the basic purchasing for them,
23 and we set up the criteria of the type of product that
24 we bought and distributed and delivered to the
46
1 distribution units.
2 Q.
As you sit here today, do you have any
3 documents to evidence that?
4 A.
I do not personally, no.
5 MR. WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank you. I don't
6 have any other questions. Larry, do you?
7 MR. CHILTON: We'll reserve any questions at
8 this time, and we'll also reserve signature. Thank
9 you.
10 MR. WILLIAMS: Okay. And I want to -- off
11 the record I'll talk to the court reporter.
12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: End of deposition. Off
13 the record at 13:23.
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