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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT WESTERN DISTRICT OF KENTUCKY COMMERCIAL UNION INSURANCE COMPANY, ) Plaintiff, ) ) vs. ) ) ROCKWELL INTERNATIONAL CORPORATION, Defendant and Third-Party Plaintiff, ) ) ) Civil Action ) No. C-88-0873-L-J ) vs. ) ) ) THE HOME INDEMNITY COMPANY, et al., ) Third-Party Defendants. ) ) DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE Taken on behalf of the Plaintiff May 5, 1993 WALLER REPORTING, INC. 515 OLIVE STREET, SUITE 1506 ST. LOUIS, MO 63101 (314) 621-2571 Tt WATER PCB-SD0000070312 INDEX OF EXAMINATIONS PAGE Direct Examination by Mr. Cassis ............. 5 Cross-Examination by Mr. Goebel ............. 82 Cross-Examination by Mr. Price ............. 131 Redirect Examination by Mr. Cassis .................... 133 Recross-Examination by Mr. Davidson ........ 136 Recross-Examination by Mr. Goebel .......... 138 Papageorge Papageorge Papageorge Papageorge Papageorge Papageorge Papageorge Papageorge Papageorge Papageorge Papageorge Papageorge Papageorge Papageorge Papageorge INDEX OF EXHIBITS PAGE 2 Exhibit No. Exhibit No. ...... 52 * 5 8 Exhibit No. 3 61 Exhibit No. Exhibit No. ...... 64 Exhibit No. Exhibit No. Exhibit No. Exhibit No. Exhibit No. 10 ................. Exhibit No. 1 1 ...... 71 Exhibit No. 12 ........._____ Exhibit No. 13 ..................... Deposition Exhibit 14 ...... ............. 120 Deposition Exhibits 15 & 16. .... 124 LINE 12 11 15 19 20 17 LINE 15 17 22 22 6 14 8 19 10 11 23 2 11 7 5 QUESTIONS FOR CERTIFICATION Page 110, Line 14: "QUESTION: Could you generally tell me with respect to Aroclor 1268 the types of operations such an Aroclor would have been used in or used for?" Page 111, Line 9: "QUESTION: Would Monsanto have any records of the names of customers to whom Aroclor 1268 was sold?" Page 112, Line 15: "QUESTION: Can you tell me if Aroclor 1268 disintegrates or degrades when exposed to liquid hydrocarbons?" Page 112, Line 24: "QUESTION: "If Aroclor 1268 remains in a closed system would it present any risk of injury to people?" WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000070313 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT WESTERN DISTRICT OF KENTUCKY COMMERCIAL UNION INSURANCE COMPANY, ) Plaintiff, ) ) vs. ) ) ROCKWELL INTERNATIONAL CORPORATION, Defendant and Third-Party Plaintiff, ) ) ) Civil Action ) No. C-88-0873-L-J ) vs. ) ) ) THE HOME INDEMNITY COMPANY, et al., ) Third-Party Defendants. ) ) DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, produced, sworn, and examined on behalf of the Plaintiff on May 5, 1993, between the hours of nine o'clock in the forenoon and five o'clock in the afternoon of that day, at the law office of Husch & Eppenberger, 100 North Broadway, Suite 1300, St. Louis, Missouri 63102, before ALICIA A. CARTER, a Registered Professional Reporter and Notary Public within and for the State of Missouri. APPEARANCES The Plaintiff was represented by Mr. Charles S. Cassis of the law firm of Brown, Todd & Heyburn, Sixteenth Floor, Citizens Plaza, Louisville, Kentucky 40202 . The Defendant and Third-Party Plaintiff was represented by Mr. J. Anthony Goebel of the law firm of Wyatt, Tarrant & Combs, Citizens Plaza, Louisville, Kentucky 40202, and by Mr. William D. Weinreb of the law firm of Shea & Gardner, 1800 Massachusetts Avenue, N.W., Washington, D.C. 20036. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000070314 4 1 The Third-Party Defendant was represented by Mr. Gene F. Price of the law firm of Alagia, Day, 2 Trautwein & Smith, 2000 Waterfront Plaza, 325 West Main Street, Louisville, Kentucky 40202. 3 The Witness and Monsanto were represented by 4 Mr. Gerard H. Davidson, Jr. of the law firm of Smith, Helms, Mulliss & Moore, 300 North Greene Street, 5 Suite 1400, Greensboro, North Carolina 27420. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD00000/ 5 1 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED by and 2 between counsel for the Plaintiff and counsel for the 3 Defendants, that this deposition may be taken in 4 shorthand by ALICIA A. CARTER, a Registered Professional 5 Reporter and Notary Public, and afterwards transcribed 6 into typewriting, and to be read and signed by the 7 witness. 8 o-O-o 9 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, 10 of lawful age, being produced, sworn, and examined on 11 the part of the Plaintiff, deposes and says: 12 DIRECT EXAMINATION 13 QUESTIONS BY MR. CASSIS: 14 Q. If I -- Is it Dr. Papageorge? 15 A. No. I'm a dropout. I didn't quite make 16 it. 17 Q. Okay. We'11 call you Mr. Papageorge. Will 18 you please state your full name for the record? 19 A. William B. Papageorge. 20 Q. And are you here pursuant to a notice to 21 take your deposition, Mr. Papageorge? 22 A. I am. 23 Q. In order to try to save time, let me cut 24 through a lot of questions and ask you if you would give 25 me your home address, home phone number, your work WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000070316 6 1 address and that type of thing, just so I don't have to 2 keep asking those questions. 3 A. Sure. I work out of my home which is 4 321 Pebble Valley Drive, St. Louis, Missouri, 63141, 5 telephone area code 314/878-3513. 6 Q. And you are presently employed with 7 Monsanto Company? 8 A. No, I'm retired. 9 Q. Oh, you're retired. And when did you 10 retire? 11 A. My last working day was December 31, 1986. 12 Q. Do you do any consulting work for Monsanto? 13 A. I do. Well, indirectly, I should say. 14 Q. Okay. Do you do consulting work for anyone 15 else? 16 A. For a law firm. 17 Q. Okay. Mr. Papageorge, tell us, if you 18 would, your educational background. 19 A. I earned a Bachelor of Science degree in 20 chemical engineering from Washington University in 21 St. Louis, Missouri in 1943, a Master of Science in 22 chemical engineering from the same university in 1947. 23 I also have credited 12 hours toward a Doctor of Science 24 degree from Oklahoma State University. 25 Q. Okay. Any other formal schooling? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 7 1 A. I don't know how to define formal. I did 2 attend courses at Washington U. that were, I'm going to 3 call them, continuing education type in chemical 4 engineering that led to my applying for Professional 5 Engineer registration in the state of Missouri. I also 6 attended courses at Washington U. that were business 7 oriented types, did not lead to any degree. Then I 8 attended some formal type courses at the American 9 Management Association in Mew York City, again, business 10 oriented courses. 11 Q. Is it fair to say that during your work 12 over the past many years that you've also attended 13 seminars and given various seminars on various 14 engineering matters? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Okay. I'm nottrying to pin youdown to 17 any particular because I know there are numerous, 18 numerous, numerous ones. 19 A. I probably couldn't recall them all anyway. 20 Q. Okay. Would you tell me your -- And, 21 again, I'm trying to save a lot of time without going 22 into too much detail. Tell me, you graduated from 23 college in 1947? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And you went to work for Monsanto in 1951? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD00000/ 8 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. What did you do between 1947 and 1951? 3 A. I worked for Phillips Petroleum Company in 4 Bartlesville, Oklahoma. 5 Q. As a chemical engineer? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Okay. Then you went to work for Monsanto 8 in 1951? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. All right. And tell me, if you would, 11 Mr. Papageorge, if you could just give me in a 12 chronological order your positions with Monsanto from 13 1951. 14 A. I'll try. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. The dates I might be off a little. 17 Q. Sure. 18 A. But the sequence Ithink I canrecall. I 19 started out as a process engineer in the engineering 20 department at the plant located in St. Louis, Monsanto' s 21 plant. 22 Q. That's the Queen City plant or Queeny 23 plant? 24 A. John F. Queenyplant. I wasthen --This 25 was 1951. About 1953 or '54 I was made an assistant WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 9 1 supervisor in a chemical producing plant. In 1954 or so 2 I was a supervisor of another unit that produced 3 chemicals. In about 1956 I was appointed a maintenance 4 supervisor in charge of a group of mechanics, journeyman 5 involved with the installation of small new projects in 6 the plant. 1957 or so I was made superintendent of the 7 maintenance department, which was the department 8 responsible for not only new construction, but repairs 9 and maintenance of the existing equipment. In 19 - 10 about 1959 or '60 I was appointed a superintendent in 11 the plant engineering department which was called the 12 technical services department. I supervised the 13 activities of engineers and technicians that ranged from 14 half a dozen to a couple dozen, depending on the work 15 load, responsible for the technical support of the 16 producing departments. In 1962 or so I was made the 17 general superintendent of warehousing, distribution, 18 utilities. All of these assignments were still at the 19 John F. Queeny plant. 20 Q. That's in St. Louis? 21 A. In St. Louis. In 1965 I was transferred to 22 the W. G. Krummrich plant, K-r-u-m-m-r-i-c-h, in Sauget, 23 Illinois, S-a-u-g-e-t - 24 MR. CASSIS: Off the record. 25 (Whereupon, a discussion was held off the record.) WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB- 10 1 A. -- as a general superintendent of 2 manufacturing assigned a responsibility for a portion of 3 the products that were produced at that plant. In 1965 4 I was transferred to the Monsanto plant in Anniston, 5 A-n-n-i-s-t-o-n, Alabama, as the plant manager. In 1970 6 I was appointed manager-environmental control involved 7 with the evolving PCB environmental issue. 8 Q. That was in 1970? 9 A. Yes, January 1970. 10 Q. And how long did you stay in that position? 11 A. I had the responsibilities for the 12 environmental issue relating to PCBs until February 13 1976. My job evolved where instead of being devoted - 14 my time being devoted exclusively to PCBs, I began 15 getting involved with other products manufactured and 16 distributed by Monsanto. 17 Q. And that's with respect to environmental 18 issues? 19 A. Environmental and safety issues of products 20 and so on, yes. 21 Q. And were you in that position until you 22 retired? 23 A. No. I had a slightly different position. 24 Q. Go ahead. 25 A. All right. The job of WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB- 11 1 manager-environmental control was re-titled to 2 manager-environmental protection. Someone felt that I 3 could protect it better than I could control the 4 environment, I guess, but the environment was the same. 5 As I picked up additional products relating to safety 6 and the environment, the job title was changed to 7 manager of product acceptability, and I held that title 8 until 1977. In 1977 I was appointed a director of 9 environmental operations for one of Monsanto's operating 10 units. There were several at the time. My initial 11 assignment was to the unit referred to as the Monsanto 12 Intermediates Chemical Company. In 1983 I was -- with 13 the company reorganization I was a director of 14 environmental operations for Monsanto Industrial 15 Chemicals Company. In 1985 following another 16 reorganization I was appointed manager-occupational 17 health, which is the title I had upon retirement. 18 Q. Okay. During the period of 1965 to 1970 19 when you were at Anniston, Alabama, as plant manager? 20 A. Yes, sir. . 21 Q. What did that plant do? 22 A. Oh, it manufactured -- I'm trying to recall 23 just how many. I'm going to have to estimate a bit 24 here. 25 Q. Sure. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 12 1 A. A couple dozen products, which Monsanto 2 distributed, sold. 3 Q. Were any of those products -- did any of 4 those products contain PCBs? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Okay. How about theSauget, Illinois, 7 plant? Did any of those products involve PCBs? 8 A. Not the product group assigned to me, no. 9 Q. But there were some products out of there, 10 but not assigned to you? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. Okay. Tell me a little more, if you would, 13 Mr. Papageorge, about your job, beginning in January 14 1970 to 1976 as environmental -- manager-environmental 15 control, helping Monsanto with the evolving issue of 16 PCBs. Tell us what you did. 17 A. I servedprimarily as thecommunications 18 focal point at which any information relating to PCBs in 19 the environment would flow, and I would share that kind 20 of information, of course, within Monsanto, the various 21 parts of Monsanto that would be interested and were 22 involved and responsible. I would also communicate with 23 customers, not every customer, but on occasion. I would 24 communicate with regulatory agencies, both at the local, 25 state and federal level. I would be communicating with WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 13 1 the universities and private laboratories relating to 2 PCB matters. 3 Q. Now, would that -- would those particular 4 involvements with customers and universities and the 5 various people about which you've told us, would that 6 include a gathering of information as well as the 7 dissemination of information? 8 A. Yes, definitely. 9 Q. Now, you said that you had contact with 10 some of the customers, but not all of the customers with 11 respect to PCB problems; is that correct? 12 A. That is correct. 13 Q. Were you also in -- I take it you were also 14 in contact with your sales people, that is, the Monsanto 15 sales people who dealt with customers regarding PCBs and 16 those problems, if any, that arose out of the 17 manufacture of PCBs? 18 A. Yes, definitely. 19 Q. And tell us a little more how that -- if 20 you would, articulate a little more how that worked. 21 A. There is, of course, the person-to-person 22 contact. 23 Q. Sure. 24 A. The marketing people would always arrange 25 to drop by the St. Louis office, and since the WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 14 1 environmental issue related to PCBs was the topic of the 2 day, so to speak, they would drop by, and we would have 3 that one-on-one kind of discussion. 4 Q. Let me interrupt just a minute. When did 5 it sort of become topic of the day, if you will? I take 6 it before January 1, 1970? 7 A. Yes. I don't know that there is any one 8 day that it -- It sort of started in late 1966 with the 9 information that came out of a laboratory in Sweden 10 relating to the presence of PCBs in some samples. The 11 initial interest was in the analytical technology. What 12 technology is appropriate? How good are the answers? 13 How reliable are they? And then it evolved from the 14 analytical chemist out to the marketing man eventually 15 so that by 1970 the marketing people were informed that 16 "These materials were being found, and they are in our 17 products. Here's what you tell the customer." 18 In addition to the face-to-face, of course, 19 there were opportunities throughout the periods of time 20 when I would be invited to attend marketing meetings. 21 The salesmen would be called in to a seminar kind of 22 session, and I would be on their program to bring them 23 up to speed. I would, of course, be in indirect 24 communications to them through their managers, their 25 supervisors. On occasion I would get a telephone call WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 15 1 with a specific inquiry that I would, of course, try to 2 answer over the telephone and sometimes would follow up 3 with a written memorandum to this marketing person or a 4 letter to the customer at the request of the Monsanto 5 marketing person. 6 Q. Did you coordinate the activities of the - 7 well, of the marketing people as well as the managers 8 with respect to the dissemination of information about 9 PCBs to the customers? 10 A. I don't quite know how to define 11 coordinating. I was very involved in the information 12 that was made available to the managers and the 13 marketing people. How it was disseminated was left up 14 to the managers primarily. If he wanted to hold a group 15 meeting or if he wanted to make a circuit and personally 16 sit down with his marketing team or whether he wanted to 17 do it by memorandum, that was up to him, depending on 18 his particular situation regarding the geography that he 19 was responsible for throughout the country, throughout 20 the world, really, and the type of product line he was 21 responsible for and so on. So I guess the coordination 22 that I was involved with had to do with the type of 23 information that was made available to them. 24 Q. Okay. In other words, they wouldn't tell 25 the customer something about PCBs unless it was sort of WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD00000/ 16 1 coordinated through your office either directly or 2 indirectly? 3 A. Yes, as it relates to the environment. 4 Q. That's correct. Most of us, I think, are 5 familiar with PCBs and polychlorinated biphenyls as an 6 ingredient in some of the chemicals that Monsanto 7 manufactured. And with that in mind, Mr. Papageorge, 8 how many products approximately did Monsanto manufacture 9 that contained PCBs? 10 A. Oh, I've never counted them. 11 Q. Is it fair to say many? 12 A. Yes, I suppose so. It depends how the 13 categories are broken down. If you go just by types, 14 like hydraulic fluids. 15 Q. I'm going to get to that in a minute. 16 A. It would be one. 17 Q. Go ahead. We'11 take hydraulic fluids. 18 A. Hydraulic fluids. Geez, as best I recall 19 there might have been ten of them. That's an estimate 20 on my part. 21 MR. GOEBEL: Excuse me. Ten types ? 22 A. Ten different hydraulic fluids, different 23 recipes or formulas. And that would -- that kind of 24 situation existed for the other uses. Other types of 25 products that Monsanto had in heat transfer, there might WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 17 1 be half a dozen of those. Dielectric fluids in 2 transformers and capacitors, there might have been 3 through the years another dozen or so. 4 Q. (By Mr. Cassis) So there are a lot of 5 different kinds of products that Monsanto manufactured 6 that contained PCBs? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Some were used in transformers, some were 9 used in hydraulic fluids, and some were used in other 10 manners as you've described? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. What are Aroclors? 13 A. Aroclor was Monsanto's trademark to 14 describe the PCB mixture that resulted from its 15 manufacturing process after it was created and distilled 16 and ready to be packaged and sold. 17 Q. So it's a type of PCB? 18 A. Well, it's a mixture of PCBs. It was never 19 a situation where a pure PCB was marketed. 20 Q. Okay. Now, you told us already that 21 Monsanto manufactured, sold and -- and sold hydraulic 22 fluid that contained PCBs; is that correct? 23 A. That is correct. 24 Q. And is Pydraul one of those hydraulic 25 fluids? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 18 1 A. Pydraul was the Monsanto trademark used to 2 describe that product line, yes, sir. 3 Q. And Monsantomanufactured and sold Pydraul? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. Now, you told us earlier that when 6 you were at the Anniston, Alabama, plant, that you were 7 involved in the manufacture and sale of chemicals 8 containing PCBs. Do you recall that? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Were you involved -- Did any of your other 11 positions involve the manufacture or sale of PCBs prior 12 to the Anniston, Alabama, job, the positions in which 13 you - 14 A. Is yourquestion limitedjust toPCBs 15 themselves or products containing? 16 Q. Products containing PCBs. I apologize. 17 A. Products containing. When I was the 18 general superintendent of distribution, warehousing and 19 utilities at the John F. Queeny plant in St. Louis in 20 the '63, '64 period, one of the units under my 21 supervision was an operation at which products were 22 blended from many ingredients. On occasion that unit 23 would be producing the Pydraul products. After they 24 were blended, they would be packaged and ready for 25 shipment by that unit. So that was the involvement I WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 19 1 had prior to ' 65. 2 Q. Was that your first experience with PCBs? 3 A. Oh, I had experience as part of the 4 maintenance team that maintained transformers and 5 capacitors and electric switches. 6 Q. Okay. When was that? 7 A. When I was a maintenance supervisor. I 8 installed -- or I shouldn' t say I installed. I was 9 supervising the installation of some of this kind of 10 equipment. 11 Q. So that was beginning in 1956? 12 A. '56 or so, yes. As well as installing, 13 say, a pump in a heat transfer system which contained 14 PCBs in it. And then later when I was the 15 superintendent of the warehousing, distribution and 16 utilities, the utilities department supervised the 17 operation that included transformers for electrical 18 distribution. 19 Q. Tell us, if you would, Mr. Papageorge, some 20 of the uses that the chemicals or substances that 21 contain PCBs were used for? 22 MR. GOEBEL: I'm sorry. I didn't get that. 23 Could you repeat that? 24 Q. (By Mr. Cassis) Some of the uses that PCBs 25 were used for. What were they used in or for, if you WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 20 1 get down to just sort of a basic question? 2 A. As we indicated, they were an ingredient in 3 mixtures that were sold as industrial hydraulic fluids, 4 and I use the word "industrial" because we don't want to 5 confuse that with automotive and hydraulic fluids and so 6 on. They were used in systems in which heat was 7 transferred from the source, the oil or gas flame to the 8 use point. They were used as a heat transfer component 9 inside transformers and capacitors where the heat 10 generated by the electrical energy in these units would 11 be dissipated through this oil which contained PCBs. 12 They were also used in paints and varnishes, in caulking 13 materials around windows such as those in this building. 14 They were used in vacuum pumps. That's the liquid 15 that's in the pump that helps create the vacuum in the 16 system. They were used as a solvent in the carbonless 17 copy paper application where the ink is encapsulated in 18 microcapsules. PCBs was the solvent. I'm sure there 19 are other uses, but they don't come to mind at the 20 moment. 21 Q. Okay. I think that's fine. In your 22 position as plant manager in Alabama, did you have any 23 involvement in the disposal of or cleaning of PCB 24 containing chemicals? 25 A. Yes, sir. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 21 1 Q. And what was that? 2 A. Well, there is -- when we manufactured the 3 PCBs, there were always opportunities for collecting PCB 4 materials such as the clay that we'd use to refine the 5 PCBs, a bed of clay, and PCBs would flow through it and 6 pick up impurities. That clay had to be disposed of. 7 There were opportunities on occasion when you had a 8 spill where we might use either this clay or sawdust to 9 soak up the spillage. That would be disposed of. We 10 had at the plant a pond which received the waste water 11 from the PCB producing unit, and this pond would 12 accumulate PCBs, and occasionally we'd have to take a 13 backhoe and dig out the bottom of the pond and get rid 14 of that sludge which contained PCBs. Now, at the plant 15 all of this was put on a landfill that was on plant 16 property. 17 Q. Okay. Did you have any other experience 18 with disposal of PCBs? That's not a very good question. 19 Let me see if I can articulate a little bit. In your 20 position from 1970 to 1976 what experience did you have 21 with disposal of PCBs either with customers or with 22 Monsanto itself? 23 A. Oh, well, my experience there was one of 24 responding to inquiries regarding the acceptable methods 25 for disposing of PCB contaminated materials. Depending WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 22 1 on the time and the technology that was known to be 2 effective, I would try to respond. The message was one 3 of, by all means, do not get it in water because it's 4 difficult to control once you get it in water. 5 Q. Now, you say the message was. The message 6 to whom? 7 A. To the inquirer, the person inquiring. 8 Q. That would be customers? 9 A. It would be either a customer or a Monsanto 10 plant or a Monsanto marketing man or a university 11 professor, an EPA representative. 12 Q. Okay. I'll get into something a little 13 more specific later on. Were you ever involved at all 14 with containing spills or the cleanup of PCBs? 15 MR. GOEBEL: During what time period? 16 Q. (By Mr. Cassis) During 1970 to -- Well, at 17 any time. Strike that. At any time. 18 A. A spill and a cleanup. I don't recall any 19 involvement with an incident of that type. 20 Q. Okay. Now, I asked you generally, and you 21 told us what your responsibilities as 22 manager-environmental control was during the '70s, and 23 you told us generally about how you went about carrying 24 out your responsibilities as manager of that unit. Now, 25 can you tell me in discharging your duties did you WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 23 1 familiarize yourself with studies about the impact of 2 PCBs on the environment and on any alleged health 3 problems? 4 A. Oh, yes. That was one of my 5 responsibilities. 6 Q. Tell us generally without going into a lot 7 of details of all the studies and things of that nature 8 what you did to familiarize yourself. 9 A. Initially it was a matter of, I'm going to 10 call it, playing catch-up in early 1970. So I consulted 11 with the individuals that were -- that had been 12 involved, such as the analytical chemists with 13 analytical technology. I also contacted within Monsanto 14 the representatives in Monsanto's corporate medical 15 department because they were very interested in the 16 effects of PCBs on living creatures. I made 17 arrangements with Monsanto's librarians, they are the 18 custodians of the journals and so on that Monsanto 19 subscribed to, when they scan the contents of the 20 journals, to tip me off when an article appeared about 21 PCBs, and they'd send me a copy. I attended as many 22 seminars and meetings as I could as time would allow 23 that covered the subject of PCBs. I made it a point to 24 contact representatives of academia and the regulatory 25 agencies to just sit down and talk. "What do you hear?" WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007I 24 1 "What do you know?" "What journals have you looked at?" 2 "What articles have appeared?" And also the customers, 3 some customers had the resources where they would be 4 tuned in quite well, and I would share with them what I 5 had heard and ask them what they had heard. 6 Q. During the period of time in the '70s you 7 said that customers would tell you what they have heard 8 and what's going on in the field; is that correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. Were there also any federal 11 regulations promulgated with respect to PCBs during the 12 '70s? 13 MR. GOEBEL: Excuse me. I'm going to 14 object to the form of the question. He said "some 15 customers," not "customers." 16 MR. CASSIS: Fine. 17 MR. GOEBELs All right. 18 Q. (By Mr. Cassis) I'll accept "some." 19 A. Regulations in the '70s. Yes, there were, 20 of course, several proposals in the early ' 70s. Some of 21 these proposals with modification were eventually 22 approved as final regulations. 23 Q. Were you familiar with the federal 24 government promulgating regulations relating to the use 25 of PCBs in hydraulic fluids beginning in 1976? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 25 1 A. Yes, I am. 2 Q. And what did those regulations provide for? 3 A. I don't recall the specifics any longer, 4 but they did in '76, as I remember. 5 Q. Beginning in '76? 6 A. Beginning in '76. I'm not certain of the time anymore, but I do recall an FDA concern of PCBs in 8 hydraulic fluids in the food-pharmaceutical industry. 9 Q. Were you familiar with the Toxic Substance 10 Control Act? 11 A. Yes, sir. That was finally passed in '76. 12 Q. And what did that deal with, in general? 13 A. Well, in general it dealt with so-called 14 toxic materials and specifically mentioned PCBs. 15 Q. Were there articles written in the press 16 during this period of time about PCBs? 17 A. Yes, many. 18 Q. And were there articles written in the 19 scientific journals relating to concerns about PCBs - 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. -- during this period oftime? 22 A. What periodagain? Early '70s? 23 Q. Early '70s. 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And, again, during the period of time when WALLER REPORTING, INC WATER PCB-SD000007 26 1 the federal government's promulgating regulations 2 beginning in 1976? 3 A. Certainly. 4 Q. When you discussed with some of the 5 customers of Monsanto the topic of PCBs, was this also 6 during the time that the scientific articles and 7 press -- and articles in the press appeared, during that 8 period of time? 9 MR. GOEBEL: I'm going to object to the 10 relevancy, unless you can establish it was with a 11 customer that I represent, Rockwell. 12 MR. CASSIS: Fine. Objection noted. 13 Q. (By Mr. Cassis) Go ahead and answer. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. Did you ever communicate directly 16 with anybody at Rockwell that you can remember? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Now, you told us earlier you communicated 19 with your marketing department regarding developments 20 with respect to PCBs; is that correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Is the marketing department and sales 23 department sort of the same? 24 A. Yes.Uh-huh. 25 Q. So when we talk about marketing and sales, WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 27 1 we can say that they are kind of together, same? 2 A. I think for our purposes they have the same 3 meaning, yes. 4 Q. And you also communicated with your 5 manufacturing departments within Monsanto; is that 6 correct? 7 A. Certainly. 8 Q. Okay. Did you communicate with your 9 research and development department? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. How about the legal department? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. How about labeling department? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. How about public relations? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. How about shipping and distribution? 18 A. Oh, yes. 19 Q. How about the medical department? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Any other department? 22 A. Engineering department. 23 Q. Engineering department. I left that out. 24 Now, what was the lake -- I'm sorry -- the labeling 25 group in Monsanto? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 28 1 A. This was a group that was charged with the 2 responsibility for being the custodian of all 3 information relating to labels of Monsanto's products. 4 They were also the group that was charged with making 5 certain that the design of the labels met Monsanto's 6 standards and industry standards, and they were also the 7 group that would be the focal point for placing orders 8 with printing shops for the production of labels. 9 Q. And you would communicate and review with 10 the labeling department the types of labels that were 11 put on products? 12 A. At what point in time? 13 Q. During the period of time certainly 14 beginning in January 1, 1970. 15 A. Oh, in 1970 I started communicating with 16 them as it related to PCB products and their labels. 17 Q. Okay. And why was that? 18 MR. GOEBEL: Excuse me. Can I get a 19 clarification? 20 MR. CASSIS: Sure. 21 MR. GOEBEL: Your question was - 22 MR. CASSIS: Go ahead and get a 23 clarification. 24 MR. GOEBEL: Your question was did you 25 communicate and review the labels. And I think he just WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 29 1 said he communicated with the labeling department. And 2 I want to make sure that he didn't actually review the 3 labels during the time period we're talking about. 4 Q. (By Mr. Cassis) Let me ask you this 5 question, you already told us earlier that you had 6 communicated with the labeling department, right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Were you involved in any way with the 9 approval of any of the labels during -- beginning , ,10 January 1 1970 to 1976? 11 A. I was one of several that reviewed and 12 approved labels as it related to PCB products. 13 MR. CASSIS: Thank you. Is that clarified? 14 MR. GOEBEL: Yes. 15 Q. (By Mr. Cassis) All right. Now, what was 16 the -- You said you coordinated with the medical 17 department concerning PCBs. What -- Beginning January 18 1, 197 0, why did you do that? 19 A. Well, I was certainly interested in the 20 reports the medical department was getting from the 21 contract testing laboratory which was conducting studies 22 to determine the effects on test animals of different 23 quantities of PCB in their diets. I was also 24 communicating with the medical department regarding any 25 reports they might have received regarding studies WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD00000/ 1 conducted by others. 30 2 Q. And were you also interested, 3 Mr. Papageorge, in the information that the medical 4 department might be disseminating to customers? 5 A. Oh, certainly. 6 Q. And did you consult with the medical group 7 with respect to disseminating information to Monsanto's 8 customers regarding PCBs? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And did they begin doing this in 1970? 11 A. Oh, the medical department has always done 12 this, from back in the ' 30s. So it's just a matter of 13 what new information was available and what new 14 inquiries they were receiving and what new customers 15 were brought onboard. So the message would change with 16 the knowledge available. 17 Q. Okay. But certainly beginning in January 18 of 1970 you were directly involved in that process as 19 manager of environmental control involving PCB issues? 20 MR. DAVIDSON: Directly involving what 21 process? 22 Q. (By Mr. Cassis) In the meeting with the 23 medical department with respect to information that was 24 disseminated to their customers. 25 A. I was involved as a recipient of WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 31 1 information from professionals in that field. In no way 2 did I play the role of a medical doctor or toxicologist. 3 Q. I didn't mean that. Let me see if I can 4 articulate a little bit better. Beginning in January of 5 1970 when you took over this job of coordinating -- or 6 manager of the environmental problems dealing with PCBs, 7 you then became directly involved with, in consultation 8 with the medical department who disseminated information 9 to the customers about PCBs? 10 A. Or I would get information from them and 11 disseminate it myself. 12 Q. Fine. Who was your, what I'll say, 13 supervisor or boss, if you will, while in your role as 14 environmental manager? Who did you report to? 15 A. It changed through the period of time. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. I started out with Mr. Howard Bergen, 18 B-e-r-g-e-n. 19 Q. And who was he? 20 A. He was the director of the business group 21 in Monsanto that was responsible for the PCB products in 22 industrial fluids like hydraulic fluids, electrical 23 fluids, heat transfer fluids. 24 Q. Okay. And you would provide him 25 information; is that correct? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD00000' 32 1 A. Certainly. 2 Q. And he would disseminate theinformation 3 that you would provide to him on occasion? 4 A. On occasion, yes, sir. 5 Q. Okay. Who else besides Mr.Bergen? You 6 said there were different people at different times. 7 A. Yes. Following Mr. Bergen, I don't recall 8 the exact timing here, but at one time I was reporting 9 to Mr. -- I call him Wink. I don't know what his formal 10 first name is, Wink Corey, C-o-r-e-y. And, finally, I 11 was reporting to a Robert Potter, P-o-t-t-e-r. 12 Q. Was Mr. Bergen most of the time, was he the 13 one in that job -- Strike that question. What was 14 Robert's last name, Robert -- 15 A. Potter, P-o-t-t-e-r. 16 Q. Okay. Was he there when you first started 17 as manager, environmental manager? 18 A. Who? 19 Q. Mr. Bergen. 20 A. Yes, he was the one that selected me for 21 the job. 22 Q. Did you have -- How often did you have 23 discussions with Mr. Bergen? Daily? 24 A. Initially it was daily. My office was 25 right next to his. We shared the same secretary. But WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 33 1 as time went on and the subject had really crystallized 2 pretty well, I would suggest it became one of about once 3 a week, roughly. 4 Q. Okay. You told us earlier about the 5 Swedish study that you became aware of? 6 A. I did. 7 Q. Do you recall that? 8 A. Uh-huh. 9 Q. When did you first become aware of that 10 study? 11 A. When did I personally become aware of it? 12 Q. Yeah. 13 A. In late 1969. 14 Q. Was that the first study, Mr. Papageorge, 15 that confirmed that PCBs were being found in the 16 environment? 17 A. That's the first reported study, yes, sir. 18 Q. Okay. And then there were some subsequent 19 studies, of course? 20 A . Oh, yes. 21 Q. What did these studies -- What were the 22 concerns of those studies, if you recall? 23 A. We're talking now about the Swedish 24 studies? 25 Q. Swedish and then the other studies in the WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB- 34 1 late ' 60s. 2 A. Well, again, it's an evolving situation. 3 The initial concern was what is this material that the 4 analytical chemist is detecting in the samples? Is it 5 truly a PCB or is it something else? 6 Q. Uh-huh. 7 A. Then the concern became one of okay, we 8 have established that they are PCBs. Now, are we 9 certain of the quantity that we're reporting? Is the 10 amount present an accurate reflection? And along with 11 that, there was a question raised about now that we have 12 detected them in the environment, what harm, if any, is 13 being created? Subsequent studies were reported in 14 which PCBs were implicated, really, along with DDT as 15 affecting the reproduction of birds, more specifically 16 the pelicans off of Southern California. And then there 17 was a study at Cornell University that indicated the 18 peregrine falcon reproduction might be affected. There 19 were reports that an incident in the North Sea affecting 20 sea birds and seals might be related to PCBs. 21 As time went on, the conclusion, as I 22 recall, that was reached was that in the case of the 23 birds, it was DDT that was the culprit. And the North 24 Sea incident, which got a lot of publicity at the time, 25 was attributed to, as best I recall, to inability of the WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 35 1 creatures to find enough food, nourishment following 2 some severe sea storms. 3 Q. Were you familiar with the Yusho incident? 4 A. Yes, I am. 5 Q. And when was that reported? 6 A. That occurred in 1968. 7 Q. Tell us what the Yusho incident was. 8 MR. DAVIDSON: May I interrupt here? 9 MR. CASSIS: Okay. 10 MR. DAVIDSON: You asked when was it 11 reported. He told you when it occurred. 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 13 MR. DAVIDSON: Do you want to clarify that? 14 Q. (By Mr. Cassis) When did you say it 15 occurred? 16 A. 1968. 17 Q. And when did you find out about it? 18 A. That's better because I don't know when it 19 was officially -- I first heard of it when I took 20 the manager-environmental control job in January of 21 1970. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. And I followed that incident through the 24 1975 meeting that EPA conducted in Chicago, November. 25 Q. And that was an incident that involved WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB- 1 PCBs, did it not? 36 2 A. Yes. 3 MR. CASSIS: Okay. And off the record just 4 a minute. 5 (Whereupon, a discussion was held off the record.) 6 MR. CASSIS: Let's go back on the record. 7 Q. (By Mr. Cassis) Tell us, if you would, 8 what concerns you had in your capacity as environmental 9 manager about the Yusho incident. 10 A. Well, my concern related to the fact that 11 PCBs were involved. PCBs were found in this rice bran 12 oil intended for human consumption, as well as other 13 chemicals. My concern then zeroed in on did the 14 symptoms of people who consume this oil relate to PCBs 15 or were they due to the other chemicals present in the 16 oil. 17 Q. So there was a concern of alleged human 18 health problems from exposure to PCBs? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Now, when did -- Strike that. Did Monsanto 21 notify its customers of concerns with respect to the 22 presence of PCBs in the environment? 23 MR. GOBBEL: Could you clarify? What date 24 are you speaking of? 25 MR. CASSIS: Well, let me -- That's what I WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 37 1 was going to ask him and then do the date. Let him 2 answer the question, then we'll go with the date. 3 MR. GOEBEL: All right. I'm sorry. Could 4 you read back the question? 5 (Whereupon, the reporter read from the record as 6 follows: "QUESTION: Now, when did -- Strike that. Did 7 Monsanto notify its customers of concerns with respect 8 to the presence of PCBs in the environment?) 9 Q. (By Mr. Cassis) Let me add to it, and the 10 alleged health effects, if any, as a result of the 11 presence of PCBs in the environment? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. All right. Now, when did Monsantofirst 14 start notifying its customers? 15 A. The first letter addressing PCBs in the 16 environment was sent to customers, as best I recall, in 17 1969. I believe it was March of '69. 18 Q. All right. And did itsubsequently notify 19 customers on a periodic basis? 20 A. Yes, as new developments would occur, there 21 were letters sent out. 22 Q. Okay. Did Monsanto also put out press 23 releases? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And do you recall when those -- Strike WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD00000/ 38 1 that. Were those press releases put out -- Strike the 2 question. When I asked you if periodic letters and 3 periodic press releases were put out, you said yes. 4 Okay. And you said they began in March of 1969. Did 5 they -- Did those continue through the time at least 6 that you were manager of environmental affairs? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And did it continue after that to your 9 knowledge? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Okay. Now, you told us that they sent out 12 letters to customers and various personnel. Did 13 Monsanto personnel ever make any trips to Monsanto's 14 customers to specifically discuss PCBs with the 15 customers? 16 A. Oh, yes. 17 Q. You told us real early in your deposition 18 that you were involved in meetings with the marketing 19 people and the sales people about the information 20 disseminated; is that correct? 21 A. That is correct. 22 Q. Now, was the informationabout which you 23 were concerned with and about which you discussed with 24 these people, was that some of the information that 25 was -- that some of the sales people took out on their WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 39 1 personal trips to the customers? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Okay. Whowould make these trips? I might 4 be being -- I may be redundant in my question because 5 you said sales people and marketing people. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Let me see if I can rephrase it, articulate 8 a little bit better. Did you ever make any of these 9 trips to any of the customers? 10 A. I did. Imade a few, yes. 11 Q. And was this during from the period 1969 12 through at least 1976 or would that be beginning in 13 January 1970? 14 A. January 1970 would be the beginning of the 15 period during which I on occasion would go with other 16 Monsanto representatives to customers. 17 Q. You didn't make all the trips? 18 A. Oh, I couldn't, no. Uh-uh. 19 Q. When you participated in one of these 20 efforts or one of these visits to the customers with one 21 of the marketing people, what would you tell them or 22 what would you discuss? 23 A. It depended on the audience and my 24 perception of how familiar they were with these 25 chemicals. If appropriate, I would describe the WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 40 1 chemistry and briefly the manufacturing process. I 2 would also bring them up to date on what uses PCBs were 3 involved in. I would then bring them up to speed 4 regarding Monsanto's analytical program, analytical 5 development program, the involvement of regulatory 6 agencies. Of course, starting in 1970 I was able to 7 tell them that Monsanto had withdrawn from some of the 8 uses to which PCBs were put. 9 Q. Did you ever discuss with the Monsanto 10 customers the importance of keeping PCBs out of the 11 environment? 12 A. Oh, yes, definitely. 13 MR. GOEBEL: I'm going to object to any 14 further questioning about his visits to customers. He's 15 already said he didn't communicate with Rockwell, and 16 that's what we're here on today. And I want to have an 17 objection to any further contacts with customers, none 18 of whom have been identified to be Rockwell or 19 representatives of Rockwell. 20 Q. (By Mr. Cassis) Fine. Did you discuss 21 with Monsanto customers the importance of keeping PCBs 22 away from water? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And why did you do that? 25 A. Principally because the mixture of PCBs and WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 41 1 water posed some very difficult technical problems in 2 terms of removing the PCBs from the water. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. In order to avoid that situation, I would 5 advise the customers to just don't mix the two; 6 otherwise, you end up with a problem that's difficult to 7 cope with. 8 Q. Did you ever go to Europe to try to learn 9 more about the PCB problem? 10 A. I did, yes. 11 Q. And what was the purpose of that trip? 12 A. Well, really two purposes. One is for me 13 to get information as to what the European producers and 14 regulatory ministries were doing and thinking, and the 15 other was for me to share with them our perception of 16 the situation. 17 Q. Did you ever discuss with Monsanto 18 customers the information you learned from your European 19 trip and the incident concerning Yusho? 20 A. Every chance I got, yes. 21 Q. Okay. Did you recommend to customers 22 disposal and use techniques in order to keep PCBs out of 23 the environment? 24 A. I did. 25 Q. And did your marketing department send out WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 42 1 memoranda that you were involved in with respect to 2 disposal and use techniques in order to keep PCBs out of 3 the environment? 4 A. I did. 5 Q. Did you participate in drafting or 6 reviewing documents that were disseminated to Monsanto's 7 customers about PCBs? 8 A. Some documents. I can't speak for all 9 documents. I don't know. 10 Q. Okay. Beginning in 1970 when you took over 11 as manager of environmental issues dealing with PCBs, 12 was there ever any kind of a regular newsletter or 13 publication that was sent to Monsanto customers that 14 were purchasing products containing PCBs? 15 MR. GOEBEL: Same objection as the other 16 one. 17 MR. CASSIS: That's fine. 18 A. I don't recall a regular newsletter, no. 19 Q. (By Mr. Cassis) Was there any kind of 20 mailing effort to ensure the -- Strike that. Did you 21 have anyone that assisted you in your job in preparation 22 of various reports that were to be disseminated to 23 customers concerning PCBs? 24 A. Certainly. 25 Q. Who was that? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB- 43 1 A. Well, it depended on the subject covered. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. If it were, let's say, a report on the 4 toxicology testing, I would have a member of the 5 Monsanto corporate medical department prepare that kind 6 of document. If it were a procedure for analyzing for 7 PCBs in different kinds of samples, I would have a 8 member of the Monsanto analytical laboratory prepare 9 that kind of document. 10 Q. Now, you told us earlier that you 11 participated in drafting or reviewing documents that 12 were disseminated to Monsanto's customers about PCBs. 13 Were these documents sent to Monsanto's customers as a 14 part of Monsanto's regular course of business? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Okay. And it was -- And was it part of 17 Monsanto's custom, practice and habit to pass these 18 papers and documents to customers of record when they 19 were prepared? 20 MR. GOEBEL: Same objection as my earlier 21 objection. 22 MR. CASSIS: That's fine. 23 Q. (By Mr. Cassis) Go ahead. 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Was there any kind of mailing effort to WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007I 44 1 ensure that Monsanto's customers received these reports 2 that you know of? 3 A. Are you talking about registered mail? 4 Q. No, not necessarily that, but did you have 5 like a regular list of customers that used FCBs that you 6 would send these reports to? 7 A. Certainly. 8 Q. And was the list usedeach and every time 9 that these reports were disseminated? 10 A. Corrected as we got information. We would 11 either add names or scratch names. 12 Q. And how often were these reports to 13 customers prepared? 14 A. Oh, there was no set period. 15 Q. Just periodic, then? 16 A. Periodic, depending on the new information 17 that was available. 18 Q. Was there any special effort in 1970 to 19 keep all of Monsanto's customers advised and appraised 20 of the PCB issues about which we have talked about here 21 this morning? 22 MR. GOEBEL: Same objection. 23 A. I would suggest that, yes, in early 1970 24 there was a massive mailing made to Monsanto's customers 25 of record, yes. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB- 45 1 Q. (By Mr. Cassis) And did Monsanto provide 2 its customers with information regarding the disposal of 3 fluids containing PCBs during this period of time? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. In fact, didn't Monsanto let its customers 6 know that they would accept liquid PCB waste beginning 7 in the early 197 0' s? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Did youparticipate in that decision? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Tell us about that, if you would. 12 A. This had to do with the Monsanto program 13 for installing, constructing and operating an 14 incinerator capable of destroying PCBs that were no 15 longer useful. This program began in early 1970. The 16 unit was finally in operation in 1971. In the interim 17 Monsanto gave its customers the opportunity to send 18 their waste PCB liquids to Monsanto's plant. Monsanto 19 just stockpiled it until the unit was ready to operate. 20 Q. Did that includePydraul? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Okay. Did Monsanto inform its customers 23 that its incinerator was available to its Monsanto 24 customers for its PCB liquid waste? 25 A. Yes. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 46 1 Q. When was that information sent out? 2 A. As best I recall, it was about 1971 or so. 3 Q. And Monsanto did so in fact receive waste 4 from some of its customers for incineration? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Okay. We talked about labeling earlier. 7 Did Monsanto place labels on containers containing PCBs 8 which had warnings concerning PCBs entering the 9 environment? 10 MR. GOEBEL: I'm going to object to the 11 form of the question until you can -- I mean labels on a 12 lot -- We've talked about a lot of different products. 13 If you want to identify the kinds of product that 14 Rockwell consumed. 15 Q. (By Mr. Cassis) Were there labels put on 16 Pydraul products? 17 MR. GOEBEL: And I also want to object to 18 just Pydraul. Rockwell used certain kinds of Pydraul. 19 And I would ask that you clarify. If warning labels 20 were placed on Pydraul, I want to know which ones they 21 were placed on. 22 MR. CASSIS: Finished? 23 MR. GOEBEL: Yes. 24 Q. (By Mr. Cassis) Were warning labels placed 25 on Pydraul products? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD00000/ 47 1 A. Warning labels of what type? 2 Q. Warning -- Let' s just take general - 3 Strike the question. Did Monsanto place labels on 4 containers containing chemicals which contained PCBs 5 concerning PCBs entering in the environment? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Okay. And when did that labeling first 8 take place? 9 A. In May of 1970. 10 Q. Okay. And did those products include 11 Pydraul? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And did it include all kinds of Pydraul? 14 A. All the Pydrauls that contained PCBs. 15 Q. So any Pydraul that contained PCBs had this 16 warning label on it? 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. Beginning in 1970? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. Who prepared the language that was used in 21 the -- Strike that. Did you assist in the preparation 22 of the label that was used about which we have talked? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. Did the label warn against allowing 25 substances containing PCBs to escape into the WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 48 1 environment? 2 A Yes. 3 Q. Was it Monsanto's custom and practice to 4 put warning labels on all chemicals containing PCBs? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q And that would include Pydraul? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. All kinds of -- all types of Pydraul 9 produced by Monsanto? 10 A. With PCBs in them. 11 Q. With PCBs in them? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. Did Monsanto have aprocedure toensure 14 that substances containing PCBs had these labels on it? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Did you see containers whichwere labeled? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Do you knowwhether any Pydraul containers 19 containing PCBs ever went out from Monsanto that did not 20 include a warning label? 21 A. Not to myknowledge, no. 22 MR. GOEBEL: After a particular date? 23 Q. (By Mr. Cassis) At any time. 24 A. Well, prior to 1970 they didn't have the 25 environmental label on them. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 49 1 Q. Then beginning in 1970 did you ever see any 2 containers that went out from Monsanto that did not 3 include a warning label? 4 A. Of Pydrauls with PCBs? 5 Q. Of Pydrauls with PCBs. 6 A. I did not. 7 Q. And you' ve already told us that you 8 reviewed and participated in the labels that were 9 prepared and used by Monsanto; is that correct? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. Did Monsanto put warnings on invoices it 12 sent to customers regarding the dangers with respect to 13 PCBs? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. What generally didthose warnings say? 16 A. The need to keep it out of the environment, 17 eventually also to avoid using it near food and 18 pharmaceuticals. In essence, that's what the statement 19 said. 20 Q. Did it have anything about the alleged 21 health hazards? 22 A. Yes, the harmful to some speciesof 23 wildlife or some such statement. 24 Q. And, again, when did that practice begin, 25 that is, with respect to the warnings on the invoices? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 50 1 A. Oh, sometime in 1971. 2 Q. So, in other words, if a company that 3 purchased Pydraul containing PCBs received an invoice 4 for the product which they bought from Monsanto, that 5 invoice would have these warnings on it that we talked 6 about? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. And, again, you assisted in the drafting 9 and reviewing of the language that was used on the 10 invoices? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. I may have asked you this question. If I 13 did -- I think I have, but just let me make sure. The 14 warnings about which we have talked that were placed on 15 invoices would have been sent to anyone purchasing 16 Pydraul containing PCBs? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. In 1970 did Monsantomaintain a list of 19 customers who purchased hydraulic fluid like Pydraul 20 that contained PCBs? 21 A. Certainly, yes. 22 Q. And this list was kept in the ordinary and 23 regular course of business? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Did Monsanto discontinueselling some WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD00000/ 1 products in 1970 and '71 that contained PCBs? 51 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And what type products? 4 A. These are the products that were used in 5 situations that allow almost immediate entry into the 6 environment such as the paints and varnishes I mentioned 7 earlier, the carbonless copy paper, the caulkings. It's 8 that kind of what we called at the time open uses. 9 Q. Did it discontinue the sale of Pydraul 10 containing PCBs? 11 A. Eventually. 12 Q. And when was that, if you know? 13 A. As I remember, that started in1971. 14 Q. Okay. And do you know when that sort of 15 concluded, that is, selling of Pydraul containing PCBs, 16 a cessation of those sales? 17 A. About '12. Early '12 is the best I recall. 18 Q. And Monsanto -- did Monsanto continue to 19 sell products in 1970 to '71 which contained PCBs which 20 were in enclosed systems? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Suchas transformers ? 23 A. Yes. 24 MR. CASSIS: Off the record. 25 (Whereupon, a discussion was held off the record.) WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 52 1 Q. (By Mr. Cassis) Now, were there any 2 conditions or restrictions under which Monsanto sold 3 PCBs-containing substances during this period, that is, 4 1970 to 1972? 5 A. Were there any conditions? 6 Q. Let me see if I can rephrase it. Did 7 Monsanto require any kind of agreement with respect to 8 the purchaser with respect -- I'm sorry. Did Monsanto 9 require any kind of agreement with the purchaser -- 10 Strike that question. I don't even want to ask that. 11 Okay. 12 MR. CASSIS: This would be a good time to 13 take a break. 14 (Whereupon, a short recess was taken.) 15 Q. (By Mr. Cassis) Mr. Papageorge, I'm going 16 to go through a series of documents here that I want to 17 ask you some questions on. The first few I might have 18 quite a few questions. Then after that I think we'11 19 get through pretty quick. I'm handing you what's been 20 marked as Exhibit 1, which is a letter dated February 9, 21 1970, and signed by Donald A. Olson. And I'd like for 22 you to take a look at that letter, please. Just take a 23 brief look at it or a long look at it, if you want. All 24 right. Now, if you'd take a look at the very first page 25 where it's marked Exhibit 1, not the letter itself, but WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 53 1 the front cover there, and let me ask you a background 2 question, if I might. You told us earlier in your 3 testimony that in 1970 Monsanto maintained a list of 4 customers who purchased hydraulic fluids like Pydraul. 5 A. I did. 6 Q. Do you recall that? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And then if you'11 look at this particular 9 front cover, I want to ask you, is this a redacted list; 10 in other words, were there other customers' names on 11 this page, but for the purpose of producing this to us, 12 these customers names were eliminated? 13 A. That is correct. 14 Q. So the letter dated February 7, 1970, can 15 you tell us to whom it was sent on this redacted front 16 cover? 17 A. It was sent to the directors of purchases 18 at three Rockwell Manufacturing Company locations. One 19 of them is referred to as Pittsburgh Du Bois Division, 20 Du Bois, Pennsylvania. The other is 401 Newell Street 21 in Barberton, Ohio. And the third is Russellville, 22 Kentucky. 23 MR. PRICE: If I can interrupt. You said 24 February 7th. Did you mean February 9, 1970? 25 Q. (By Mr. Cassis) February 9, 1970. I WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD00000' 54 1 apologize, Mr. Papageorge. And Mr. Price, I apologize. 2 Have you ever heard of Rockwell Manufacturing Company? 3 A. Oh, yes. 4 Q. Did you hear of Rockwell Manufacturing at 5 the time you were environmental manager? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Did you -- I think you told us earlier that 8 you never visited any of the Rockwell facilities 9 yourself, did you not? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. Now, the letter that we're talking about 12 now, February 9, 1970, have you ever seen that letter 13 before? 14 A. Certainly. 15 Q. Okay. And did you see it at the time it 16 was sent? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Okay. Now, was it sent out as part of the 19 custom and practice of Monsanto to keep its customers 20 informed about developments concerning PCBs during that 21 time period? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Do you know of anyone at Monsanto that you 24 talked with that ever visited Rockwell's facilities 25 personally? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB- 55 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And who would that be? 3 A. Norman Johnson. 4 Q. Norman Johnson. And is he still with the 5 company? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Is he still alive? 8 A. Yes. To the best of myknowledge, yes. 9 Q. Do you know where he lives? 10 A. Not exactly. It's somewhere around the 11 Chicago area, as best I can recall. 12 MR. GOEBEL: Charlie, you asked him 13 "visited Rockwell." Rockwell Manufacturing? 14 Russellville Rockwell? 15 Q. (By Mr. Cassis) That visited the 16 Rockwell -- first of all, any of the Rockwell 17 facilities. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Do you know if he visited theRockwell 20 facility at Russellville, Kentucky? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Do you know of anyone atMonsanto that 23 personally visited the Rockwell facility at 24 Russellville? 25 A. At this time I don't recall a specific WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 56 1 individual. 2 Q. Now, who was Donald Olson? 3 A. At what point in time? 4 Q. In February of 1970 do you know who 5 Strike that. Do you know Donald Olson? 6 A. I do. 7 Q. Did you know him in February of 1970? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Do you know what his position was? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. What was that? 12 A. He was a director of sales for the business 13 group in Monsanto that was responsible for the 14 industrial fluids. 15 Q. And did you have various meetings with him 16 and his staff with respect to PCBs and dissemination of 17 information to the customers that purchased these 18 particular products from Monsanto? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Okay. Now, can you tell us whether you or 21 your office prepared this letter or did Mr. Olson 22 prepare this letter? 23 A. A rough draft was prepared -- I'm trying to 24 recall the individuals. There were a group of 25 individuals that represented marketing, manufacturing, WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB- 57 1 medical. And I was a member of that group that prepared 2 a rough draft. That rough draft was then sent to 3 individuals like Mr. Olson, and he, in turn, made some 4 revisions and sent it back to the original group for 5 their comments. And after an exchange, this is the 6 final result of that effort. 7 Q. And you reviewed this final result? 8 A. I did, yes. 9 Q. Okay. It went out with your approval? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Now, the article attached, "Chemical Week" 12 dated October 29, 1969. 13 A. I see that. 14 Q. Was this articleattached to the February 15 9th letter when it went out? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Okay. Was it part ofMonsanto's custom and 18 practice to send these out to all Monsanto customers of 19 record that were purchasing products that contained 20 PCBs? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Okay. 23 MR. GOEBEL: "These" meaning that article? 24 MR. CASSIS: That's correct. 25 Q. (By Mr. Cassis) I think that's all I have WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 58 1 on that document. Did you -- Strike that. Or another 2 question. Did you actually send this letter out or did 3 Mr. Olson actually send it out? You stated earlier that 4 you had approved the final draft to be sent? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Okay. And you stated earlier to whom it 7 was sent to. Now, my question is did you actually send 8 the letter or did Mr. Olson send the letter? 9 A. Mr. Olson directed his manager, 10 Mr. Johnson, to send this letter to the Pydraul 11 customers. 12 Q. So Mr. Johnson would have been the one to 13 have sent that letter to the director of purchases, 14 Rockwell Manufacturing, Russellville, Kentucky? 15 A. Mr. Johnson'soffice. Not he personally. 16 His secretary and so on. 17 Q. That's correct. Now, let' s go to Exhibit 18 No. 2 . 19 A. I have reviewed thedocument. 20 Q. Now, again, looking at the front page, is 21 this a redacted list of Monsanto's customers who were 22 sent this letter? 23 A. It is. 24 Q. And does it show that director of 25 purchases, Rockwell Manufacturing, 400 North Lexington WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 59 1 Avenue, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, received a copy or at 2 least was sent a copy, and also director of purchases, 3 Rockwell Manufacturing, Russellville, Kentucky, 42276 4 was sent a copy of this letter? 5 A. It does. 6 Q. Now, I'm going to gothrough this one more 7 time, and then I'm not going to go through it on any 8 more of the letters. You had a list of all of the 9 customers who purchased hydraulic fluids that contained 10 PCBs, and for purposes of production of this particular 11 letter, you have redacted or taken off the names of 12 everyone other than the Rockwell addresses? 13 A. I personallydidn't do that. 14 Q. No. 15 A. Legal department representatives did that. 16 Q. So what I'm saying, though, is the reason 17 this front cover has a lot of blank space is because of 18 the customers whose names have been redacted? 19 A. That is correct. 20 Q. Now, again, this letter is dated January 1, 21 1972. And are you familiar with this letter? 22 A. Yes, I am. 23 Q. Okay. Now, did you prepare this letter for 24 Mr. Bergen's group to send out or did -- Or tell us the 25 process about which this letter was prepared. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 60 1 A. Mr. Bergen had a draft that he brought by 2 for me to review. I don't recall all the specifics, but 3 I do recall there were some changes that I proposed. 4 And this is the final result of at least the dialogue I 5 had with Mr. Bergen. I don't know who else he consulted 6 with. 7 Q. So did you have an opportunity to review 8 the final result of the letter? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And I take it this letter was sent out as 11 part of the custom and practice of Monsanto to inform 12 its customers about PCB developments? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. Do you have any knowledge -- Strike the 15 question. As far as you know, did Rockwell stop using 16 PCBs in its Pydraul as this indicated? 17 MR. GOEBEL: I'll object to the form. I 18 don't think I understand. And this letter also does not 19 mention the word PCBs. 20 Q. (By Mr. Cassis) Go ahead and answer the 21 question. 22 A. I don't have any personal knowledge, no. 23 Q. Okay. It says in the last paragraph, "In 24 the meantime we will make every effort to contact each 25 of you, our customers, individually." Do you know WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000001 61 1 whether Monsanto did, in fact, contact each of its 2 customers concerning the contents outlined in this 3 letter? 4 A. Yes, they did contact them individually. 5 Q. Now, you told us earlier who Howard Bergen 6 was? 7 A. I did. 8 Q. And he was the director of the Specialty 9 Products Group to whom you reported? 10 A. Yes. My only hesitation, in 1972 the group 11 was called Specialty Products Group. Prior to that it 12 was called Functional Fluids Group, and it had several 13 different designations through the period of time I 14 reported to them. 15 Q. But this is the same Mr. Bergen to whom you 16 had direct and regular communications? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Where is Mr. Bergen now? 19 A. Deceased. 20 Q. Do you know when he died? 21 A. About threeyears ago. 22 Q. Okay. Again, I'll hand you what's been 23 marked as Exhibit 3, which is a March 15, 1972, letter, 24 again signed by Howard S. Bergen, and ask you to look at 25 that letter. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 62 1 A. I have reviewed the document. 2 Q. Again, look at the front page, and tell me 3 to whom that letter was sent. 4 A. Rockwell Manufacturing, Russellville, 5 Kentucky. 6 Q. And, again, that is from the -- is a 7 redacted list of Monsanto customers who have been using 8 that particular product? 9 A. It is. 10 Q. Okay. Now, again -- 11 MR. GOEBEL: Let me object. "That 12 particular product." There is an attachment, and you 13 haven't identified which product. 14 Q. (By Mr. Cassis)The products listed on the 15 letter of March 15, 1972, along with the enclosures. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Okay. Now, again, this letter was sent out 18 as a part of Monsanto's custom and practice to its 19 customers regarding the changeover from PCBs containing 20 Pydraul; is that correct? 21 A. That is correct. 22 Q. That's all. I'll hand you what's been 23 marked as Exhibit 4. Again, this is a letter from 24 W. E. Schalk, S-c-h-a-l-k, along with an enclosure. 25 And, again, can you tell me to whom this letter was WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB- 63 1 sent? 2 A. It was sent to director of purchases for 3 Rockwell Manufacturing Company at three locations, 4 Pittsburgh Du Bois Div., Du Bois, Pennsylvania, 5 401 Newell Street, Barberton, Ohio, and Russellville, 6 Kentucky. 7 Q. And, again, that's a redacted list of the 8 Monsanto customers? 9 A. It is. 10 Q. Tell us what that letter is, please. 11 A. This is a letter to customers of PCB 12 products that were used in the open uses we discussed 13 earlier, the paints, the varnishes, the caulking, the 14 carbonless copy paper, similar to the letter we 15 discussed previously that was sent to the customers of 16 Pydraul products that contained PCBs. 17 Q. Did you help prepare this letter also? 18 A. I did. 19 Q. Okay. Now, who was -- or I'm sorry -- who 20 is W. E. Schalk? 21 A. Mr. Schalk at the time was director of 22 sales for Monsanto's plasticizer marketing group. 23 Q. Do you know whether he's still at Monsanto? 24 A. No, he no longer is with Monsanto. 25 Q. Okay. Did you review the final of this WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 64 1 letter also before it went out? 2 A. I did. 3 Q. And this was a letter that was sent to the 4 customersthat we talked about? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Okay. I hand you what has been marked as 7 Exhibit 5, an April 15, 1971, letter from C. Larry 8 Bradford. Okay. Again, Mr. Papageorge, to whom was 9 this letter sent? 10 A. This letter was sent to customers on record 11 at Monsanto of Pydrauls that contained PCBs. 12 Q. All right. Now, if you'd look at page 1, 13 to whom was -- on Exhibit 5, was this sent to Rockwell 14 Manufacturing, Russellville, Kentucky? 15 A. It was. 16 Q. And, again,this is aredacted list of 17 Monsanto customers; is that correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And have you ever seen thisletterbefore? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Did youprepare the letter? 22 A. I reviewed it. Idid not prepare it. 23 Q. Did you review it in final formbefore it 24 went out? 25 A. Yes. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB- 65 1 Q. And is this the final form that you 2 approved that went out on April 15, 1971? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. Who is -- You told us who Larry Bradford 5 was. He was product manager of hydraulics and 6 lubricants; is that correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Where is he now? 9 A. I don't know. 10 Q. You don't know whether he's still with 11 Monsanto or not? 12 A. Well, he is not with Monsanto, but I don't 13 know where he is. 14 Q. I hand you what's been marked as Papageorge 15 Exhibit 6, which is a letter dated August 3, 1973, from 16 Cumming Paton, and ask you if you recognize that letter? 17 A. I do recognize it. 18 Q. Did you write the letter? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Did you review the letterand the 21 enclosures before it went out? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Okay. And did you review it in final form 24 along with the enclosures at the time or before it went 25 out to the customers? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB- 66 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And to whom was this letter and the 3 enclosures sent? 4 A. Again, the customers of Pydraul products 5 that contained PCBs. 6 Q. Okay. And this letter was sent to director 7 of purchases, Rockwell Manufacturing, Russellville, 8 Kentucky -- I'm sorry -- director of purchases, 9 hydraulic fluids, Rockwell Manufacturing, Russellville, 10 Kentucky, 42276? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And director of purchases, hydraulic 13 fluids, Rockwell Manufacturing, 400 North Lexington 14 Avenue, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, 15208? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And, again, the cover page of this letter 17 is from a redacted list of Monsanto's customers who were 18 sent the letter? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Let's look at that letter of August 3, 21 1973. You told us that you had reviewed the letter in 22 its final form before it went out; is that correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. On the second paragraph where it talks 25 about "Recently the Food and Drug Administration WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 67 1 published in the Federal Register," do you see that 2 paragraph? 3 A. 4 Q. I do. Were you familiar with those regulations? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And you were familiar with them at the time 7 that they came out? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. Now, look at the fourth paragraph, 10 if you would, of that letter. It says, "Proper disposal 11 of chlorinated materials requires high temperature 12 incineration. Monsanto has installed a facility at its 13 Sauget, Illinois, plant and has made this service 14 available to its customers. Information relating to 15 this service is attached to help you should you decide 16 to dispose of such materials in this manner." Do you 17 see that paragraph? 18 A. I do. 19 Q. Did Monsanto make its incineratoravailable 20 to its customers at this time? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And this isthe sameincinerator that you 23 told us about which started in 1970, was put into full 24 operation in '71? 25 A. Yes. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 68 1 Q. Did customers use it? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Do you know whether Rockwell used it or 4 not? 5 A. I do not know. 6 Q. Was this for disposal of liquid products? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Going over to the attachment styled 9 "Incineration Service for Pydraul Fluids." 10 A. I have it. 11 Q. All right. Did Monsanto provide labels for 12 drums that were being sent for incineration of the 13 contents? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And why did Monsantoprovidethose labels? 16 MR. GOEBEL: Drums,you mean? You said 17 drums. 18 Q. (By Mr. Cassis) I'm sorry. Why did 19 they -- Did Monsanto provide labels for drums that were 20 being sent for incineration of the contents? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And why did Monsanto provide those labels 23 for the drums? 24 A. Well, we felt that the label had to be 25 quite specific about need for care and handling, had to WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB- 69 1 have the proper addressee on it to make certain that it 2 arrived at the proper destination, and rather than rely 3 on the hundreds and maybe thousands of potential 4 customers designing their own, we felt that this would 5 be most helpful. 6 Q. And that had to be on each drum? 7 A. Each drum, correct. 8 Q. I'll hand you what's been marked as Exhibit 9 7, and ask you if you have seen this before? 10 A. I don't recall seeing this document. 11 Q. Okay. Do you know who D. M. Hogan is 12 with -- or was with Rockwell International in 1975? 13 A. No. I said I don't recall. I did see this 14 document yesterday the first time. 15 Q. Do you know whether Rockwell International 16 ever sent PCB materials to Monsanto's Sauget, Illinois, 17 incinerator? 18 A. I do not know. 19 Q. I' 11 hand you what's been marked as Exhibit 20 8, which is a letter dated January 7, 1976, to Rockwell 21 International, D. M. Hogan. This appears to be the same 22 letter set out again at a later date; is that correct? 23 A. It's the same type of letter. I think, 24 yes, it reads the same. 25 Q. All right. It mentioned -- In both of WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 70 1 those letters it mentions askarel fluids? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What does askarel mean? 4 A. Askarel is a generic term used by the 5 electrical equipment industry to describe the liquids 6 that are used in electrical equipment that are fire 7 resistant. 8 Q. And does it contain PCBs? 9 A. At that time, yes. 10 Q. I 'll hand you what's been marked as Exhibit 11 9, which is a letter to Rockwell International, Columbia 12 Aircraft Division, P.0. Box 1259, Columbus, Ohio, 13 Attention: G. Rips, dated July 28, 1976, and ask you, 14 do you know Mr. G. Rips? 15 A. I do not. 16 Q. Did you, yourself, ever have any dealings 17 with Rockwell International? 18 A. No. 19 Q. In Columbus, Ohio? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Did you ever talk with Mr. C. R. Field who 22 signed the letter concerning any communications he had 23 with the Columbus Rockwell plant? 24 A. I did have discussions with Mr. Field. I 25 don't recall Rockwell International specifically, no. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 71 1 Q. All right. The first paragraph of this 2 letter says, "This will confirm our telephone 3 conversation concerning incineration of your Pydraul F-9 4 fluids." 5 A. I see that. 6 Q. Does Pydraul F-9contain PCBs? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Do you know whether the Columbus plant sent 9 Pydraul to Sauget or not? 10 A. I do not. 11 Q. I'm handing you what's been marked as 12 Exhibit 10. Again, this is a letter to Mrs. B. J. 13 Faris, dated July 18, 1977. I think you told us that 14 you never had any dealings with the Colorado facility of 15 Rockwell; is that correct? 16 A. That is correct. 17 Q. Again, thatmentionsincineration of 18 askarel. Does askarel contain PCBs? 19 A. Yes. 20 MR. GOEBEL: At what time period? 21 Q. (By Mr. Cassis) During 1977, if you know. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Exhibit 11, can you identify this, please? 24 Please identify Exhibit 11. 25 A. This is a copy of the label provided by WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007( 72 1 Monsanto to its customers to be placed on the containers 2 of unusable material containing PCBs, liquid material 3 that was returned to Monsanto for disposal. 4 Q. Okay. Now, what was -- This, of course, is 5 a Xerox copy of the label, right? This is a Xerox copy 6 of the label? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Can you tell us what colors or color the 9 label was? 10 A. What we see here as a black background is a 11 red. 12 Q. And would you please read on the right hand 13 of that label where it states "Important." 14 A. "Important. This product contains 15 polychlorinates biphenyls (PCBs) which some studies have 16 shown may be persistent, an environmental contaminant 17 and, possibly, injurious to certain forms of bird, 18 aquatic and animal life. Prevent any entry into the 19 environment through spills, leakage, disposal, 20 vaporization, reuse of containers or otherwise. Spills, 21 leakages and waste product must be collected." 22 Q. All right. And also read now the caution 23 part of that label. 24 A. "Caution: Contains chlorinated 25 hydrocarbons. Harmful substance if taken internally or WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD00000i 73 1 if in prolonged contact with the skin. Causes 2 irritation of skin and eyes. During shipment avoid 3 spills and leakage into inland waterways and the sea. 4 Store away from food, animal feedstuffs and 5 pharmaceuticals. Keep container tightly closed. Do not 6 eat or smoke when using. Avoid breathing vapors, mist 7 or fumes. Do not wear contaminated clothing. Wash 8 product from skin with soap and water. Wash eyes by 9 flushing with water." 10 Q. All right. Now, you told us earlier in 11 your deposition that you helped prepare this; is that 12 not correct? 13 A. That iscorrect. 14 Q. And when was thisprepared? 15 A. About 1970. 16 Q. Okay. And was this the same label that was 17 sent to the customers for returning for disposal 18 purposes? 19 A. The same label in what respect? 20 Q. In other words, Exhibit 11 is the label 21 which was sent to the customers? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. You had some hesitation about that? 24 A. Yes, because the -- in 1970 the reference 25 to the department number was different, and it changed WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 74 1 three times, as I remember. This version we're looking 2 at is the last version, which existed in about 1975 and 3 on. 4 Q. Okay. During 1970 and '71, '72, in that 5 era, the label would be the same except for the 6 department number? 7 A. There might have been some additional 8 information in this reference here to animal feedstuffs 9 and the like. I don't recall because as new information 10 was gathered, Monsanto would revise its wording. 11 Q. So the exact Exhibit 11 here was in 1975? 12 A. Or thereabouts, yes. 13 Q. Or thereabouts? 14 A. Yes. This is the final version. 15 Q. But the others -- Strike that. This may 16 have been changed from the other labels which were 17 generated in 1971? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. But only to the extent that you've told us, 20 that is, the department change and perhaps more 21 elaborate with respect to the caution? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. Other than that, it's the same? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. That is, the caution section? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 75 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Okay. Exhibit No. 12, tell us what that 3 is, please. 4 A. This is a copy of an article that appeared 5 in the annual review of "Pharmacological Toxicology" in 6 1987 . 7 Q. Have you seenthis before? 8 A. I have. 9 Q. And when was this published? 10 A. 1987 . 11 Q. That' s all on that exhibit. I 'll hand you 12 what's been marked as Exhibit No. 13 and ask you to 13 identify that, please. 14 A. This is a copy of a Monsanto report 15 entitled "Polychlorinated biphenyls, PCBs, A Report on 16 Uses, Environmental and Health Effects and Disposal." 17 Q. Let's go back to Exhibit 12 for a moment. 18 You said this was a 1987 publication? 19 A. I did. 20 Q. Do you know whether -- And this was by 21 Renate D. Kimbrough? 22 A. It is. 23 Q. Do you know whether she had an earlier 24 publication? 25 A. Oh, she hadmany publications. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 1 Q. Concerning PCBs? 76 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And when was her first publication? 4 A. As best I recall, I would suggest about 5 1974, '75. 6 Q Was that the one in which Dr. Kimbrough 7 reported that Aroclor 1260 produced liver cancer in 8 rats? 9 A. I believe it is, yes. 10 MR. GOEBEL: I'm sorry. What was the 11 Aroclor? 12 MR. CASSIS: Aroclor 1260. 13 Q. (By Mr. Cassis) And Aroclor 1260 contained 14 PCBs? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Okay. Now, let's go back to Exhibit 13. 17 You have identified that? 18 A. Yes, I have. 19 Q. Okay. Do you know who prepared this 20 report? 21 A. A Monsanto individual by the name of 22 Dan Bishop was the person that served as the editor. I 23 personally do not know who his contributors were. 24 Q. Do you know when this was produced? 25 A. As best I remember, it was 1980, early WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB- 77 1 1980's. 2 Q. Do you know whether this was distributed to 3 Monsanto customers? 4 A. Yes, that was the intent. 5 Q. And you say about 1980? 6 A. Yes. 7 MR. GOEBEL: I'm going to make the 8 objection I made earlier. Unless you can have testimony 9 that it was sent to Rockwell, I would object to any 10 questions about it being sent to just generically 11 customers. 12 MR. CASSIS: That's fine. 13 Q. (By Mr. Cassis) As far as you know, 14 Mr. Papageorge, this was sent to Monsanto customers who 15 purchased products containing PCBs? 16 MR. GOEBEL: Same objection as I just made. 17 MR. CASSIS: That's fine. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. (By Mr. Cassis) And youthink 1980? 20 A. As best asmy memory will -- 21 Q. When did you leave Monsanto? When did you 22 retire? 23 A. The end of '86. 24 Q. So you were there when this document was 25 produced? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 78 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And disseminated to customers? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What was the fellow's name , Mr 5 A. Dan Bishop, B-i-s-h-o-p. 6 Q. Okay. Did you have input into 7 document? 8 A. I was given a draft to review and, yes, I 9 did participate in commenting. 10 (Whereupon, a discussion was held off the record.) 11 Q. (By Mr. Cassis) Okay. Tell me the 12 composition of Pydraul F-200, if you know. 13 A. I don't remember it. 14 Q. Do you know if that particular -- Strike 15 that. Do you know who E. B. Tucker is? 16 A. E. S. Tucker. 17 Q. E. S. Tucker? 18 A. Dr. Scott Tucker was the analytical chemist 19 in Monsanto's research department who was in charge of 20 the development of PCB analytical methodology. 21 MR. CASSIS: I think that's all I have at 22 this time, Mr. Papageorge. 23 MR. GOEBEL: Could we take about five 24 minutes here, and I'll get my notes together. I'll be 25 ready to go back at it. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB- 79 1 MR. CASSIS: Sure. 2 (Whereupon, a short recess was taken.) 3 MR. GOEBEL: Mr. Papageorge - 4 MR. CASSIS: I want to ask a couple more 5 questions real quick. 6 MR. GOEBEL: Go ahead. 7 Q. (By Mr. Cassis) Mr. Papageorge, who was 8 Elmer P. Wheeler? 9 A. Mr. Wheeler in the '70s was the assistant 10 director in the Monsanto corporate medical department. 11 Q. Did he have the same job in 1960? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And who was Mr. Richard Davis? 14 A. Mr. Davis was a member of the marketing 15 group in St. Louis that was involved with the marketing, 16 sales of hydraulic fluids containing PCBs. 17 Q. Okay. When was the hydraulic fluid 18 containing PCBs, or more specifically, Pydraul A-200 19 introduced to customers ? 20 A. I don't recall the exact date. It's in the 21 '50s. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. Middle 1950's. 24 Q. At the time that it was produced and sold 25 to customers, when the product itself was sent to the WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 80 1 customers, was there any warning label on the product 2 itself? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And what did that warning label say? 5 A. I don't recall the exact words. It 6 referred to the presence of chlorinated hydrocarbons and 7 cautioned against breathing the fumes and getting on the 8 skin. These types of statements were on the label. 9 Q. And why were those warnings put on the 10 label? 11 A. As to prevent harm to the worker who might 12 be handling this material. 13 Q. Was there any information that there was a 14 toxic hazard to using around -- Was there any -- Strike 15 the question. At the time it was introduced to the 16 customer in 19 -- I think you said in the ' 50s, you put 17 a warning label on there. You told us generally what 18 the warning label said. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Okay. Was there any information that 21 caused Monsanto to put that warning label on that 22 product? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And what was that? 25 A. Well, there was -- It was well known that WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD00000/ 81 1 excessive breathing of fumes would cause severe chest 2 irritation, similar to symptoms observed in a severe 3 chest cold. It was also known that if this exposure 4 continued, the individual would have symptoms of the 5 condition called chloracne, and it was also known that 6 continued high exposure could result in harm to the 7 liver. These symptoms I described are from breathing. 8 Some of them are also a result of exposure through the 9 skin. 10 Q. Okay. Then I think you told us earlier 11 that the label was changed, the label that was put on 12 the product was changed in 1970 when you became manager 13 of environmental affairs; is that correct? 14 MR. GOEBEL: Is your question the A-200? 15 MR. CASSIS: Yes. 16 A. There was a change, yes. 17 Q. (By Mr. Cassis) And why was the change 18 made? This was a change on the label on the product 19 that was sent to the customer? 20 A. No. The label that was on the product in 21 the '50s and ' 60s. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. Remained the same in '70. There was an 24 additional paragraph prepared that referred to the 25 environmental presence of PCBs and possible harm to WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 82 1 creatures in the environment and the need to prevent it 2 from entering into the environment. 3 Q. So then in the '50s and '60s we had the one 4 label which you told us about, and then in 1970 an 5 additional label or additional warning label was put on 6 the product which was sent to the customer concerning 7 the environmental concerns and the alleged health 8 hazards? 9 A. Correct. 10 MR. CASSIS: That's all I have. 11 CROSS-EXAMINATION 12 QUESTIONS BY MR. GOEBEL: 13 Q. Mr. Papageorge, my name is Tony Goebel. I 14 represent Rockwell International, along with 15 Mr. Weinreb. I believe from your testimony earlier 16 today we know that you never visited the Russellville, 17 Kentucky, Rockwell Manufacturing or Rockwell 18 International plant; is that right? 19 A. That is correct. 20 Q. And I believe you've never talked to anyone 21 about their operations at Russellville? And when I say 22 Russellville, I mean the Rockwell Manufacturing or 23 Rockwell International plant at Russellville, Kentucky. 24 A. 25 or -- If by anyone you mean Rockwell individuals WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD00000i 83 1 Q. Did you ever talk to any Monsanto employees 2 or representatives who visited the Russellville facility 3 about the operations at the Russellville facility? 4 A. I don't recall whether the individuals in 5 Monsanto with whom I discussed customers, including 6 Rockwell, visited any Rockwell site. I don't recall 7 that. 8 Q. So you have no knowledge today about the 9 operations at the Russellville facility? 10 A. Oh, I don't know how you define knowledge. 11 I was aware that it was a die casting, metal casting 12 operation. I was aware of the use of Pydrauls. I was 13 informed it was a sophisticated customer. I have these 14 kinds of impressions, which I got talking to Monsanto 15 people who were familiar with the Rockwell situation. 16 Q. Pydraul was marketed under several 17 different formulas; is that correct? 18 A. That is correct. 19 Q. And these included Pydraul F-9, A-200, 312, 20 correct? 21 A. That is correct. 22 Q. And then there were some Pydrauls that did 23 not contain PCBs; am I correct? 24 A. That is correct. 25 Q. 50-E is one of those Pydrauls, is it not? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 84 1 A. That is correct. 2 Q. Do you know what types of Pydrauls were 3 used at Russellville? When I say types, do you know 4 which formulas of Pydraul? 5 A. Yes, I believe I do. 6 Q. And how did you acquire that information? 7 A. I saw a summary prepared by Monsanto's 8 legal department of shipments to the Rockwell facility 9 at Russellville. 10 Q. And I must assume from what you saw that 11 Monsanto keeps records of the amount -- or the types of 12 Pydraul sent to its customers and the years it wasused? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. That information is readily accessible to 15 someone, and if we were to subpoena it, it could be 16 produced? It exists today? 17 A. I don't know how readily it's available, 18 and I don't know the legalities of availability under 19 subpoena. You'd have to contact the legal department. 20 Q. All right. Were you aware that at 21 Russellville there was a system in place for recapturing 22 and reclaiming the Pydraul? 23 A. I was not. 24 Q. And if there has been testimony that since 25 the plant was in existence from 1956 through the time WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 85 1 that they discontinued use of the Pydraul that there was 2 this reclamation system, you have no information which 3 would contradict that? 4 A. That is correct. 5 Q. Do you know when Rockwell removed Pydraul 6 from its die casting machines? 7 A. I do not. 8 Q. Let me go into some of the background 9 information that you testified about earlier. You 10 started working at Monsanto's Anniston, Alabama, plant 11 in 1965, and I believe you stayed there until around 12 1970? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. What kind of Monsanto products were 15 manufactured at that plant? And I guess Iwould like 16 the trade name of those products. 17 A. I'11 try to remember. There were many. 18 There was the PCB products under the trademark Aroclor 19 followed by a number designation. There were also -- 20 Q. Before you go on, do you recall which 21 Aroclors those were? 22 I believe I can, yes. Aroclor 1221, 1232, 23 1248 t 1254, 1268. That's it. 24 Q. All right. Do you want. to continue with - 25 A They also manufactured chlorinated WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 86 1 terphenyls, which were also called Arodors. There was 2 Aroclor 5442, 5460. There was a blend of PCBs and PCTs, 3 and that went under the designation Aroclor -- I've 4 forgot the number -- 4000 something. They manufactured 5 biphenyl, sodium hydroxide, chlorine, a product called 6 HB-40, phosphorous pentasulfide, parathion, 7 p-a-r-a-t-h-i-o-n, and niran, n-i-r-a-n. I suspect 8 there were others. I can't recall at the moment. 9 Q. Am I correct in understanding from your 10 answer that there is a difference between a PCB and a 11 chlorinated terphenyl? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And that's the first time I've heard you 14 mention a chlorinated terphenyl this morning. Perhaps 15 I'm mistaken, but would some of the Pydrauls have 16 contained chlorinated terphenyls? 17 A. For a brief period of time in 1971 some of 18 the Pydrauls were reformulated by removing the PCBs and 19 adding PCTs to give a fire-resistant characteristic. 20 Q. And what prompted the change from PCBs to 21 PCTs? 22 A. The desire to remove a material which was 23 shown to be found in the environment with questions 24 regarding its impact. 25 Q. That being PCBs? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 87 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. And Monsanto made the decision that by 3 replacing PCBs with PCTs in its Pydraul fluids that it 4 was eliminating that risk? 5 MR. CASSIS: In some of its Pydraul fluids. 6 Q. 7 them? (By Mr. Goebel) I'm sorry. In some of 8 A. Yes. That is correct. And to buy time to 9 come up with a still better formula, which they did. 10 Q. Would the Pydrauls that contained PCTs in 11 1971 or thereabouts, would they have contained the -- or 12 have had present on the barrels the warning label that 13 you described earlier about the warning of the PCBs? 14 A. No. I suspect if I'm correct, I think 15 you're referring to the environmental statement. 16 Q. You described earlier a warning label that 17 you said Monsanto began putting on the PCB-containing 18 Pydraul fluids around 1970. 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. My question is would the PCT-containing 21 fluids have had that label present on them? 22 A. No. There was no information to support 23 such a paragraph. 24 Q. Would you explain that further? When you 25 say "no information," meaning that there was nothing WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 88 1 that you had at the time to indicate that PCTs were a 2 hazard to the environment? 3 A. Were even present in the environment, let 4 alone a hazard. Nobody found them in the environment. 5 Q. Well, did Monsanto consider PCTs at that 6 time a hazard to the environment? 7 A. No. 8 Q. And it didn't warn its customers about any 9 hazards associated with PCTs or fluids containing PCTs 10 because it didn't consider them to be hazardous? 11 A. I'd like to keep separate the environmental 12 impact versus the employee potential impact through 13 misuse. The employee statement still applied. 14 Q. Theemployeestatement being the onethat 15 you described after Mr. Cassis began requestioning after 16 our break. I believe you described a warning label that 17 on inhalation and harm to the skin of the workers who 18 had come into contact with the fluid? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. That's the -- How do you want to describe 21 that warning label or that label? You referred to it a 22 moment ago. The employee statement? 23 A. Well, it's a statement that refers to 24 employee exposure. It's a sort of an industrial hygiene 25 kind of statement. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SDOOOOOi 89 1 Q. And then the environmental statement would 2 be the warning label that Monsanto put on its 3 PCB-containing fluids after 1970? 4 A. Correct. 5 MR. CASSIS: In 1970. 6 A. That's -- 7 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) In 1970. 8 MR. CASSIS: That's correct. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) And I'm not a chemist, so 11 excuse me if I have to ask some very basic questions. 12 Are PCTs, then, chlorinated terphenyls? Is that what it 13 is? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Did Monsanto ever conclude that PCTs were a 16 hazard to the environment? 17 A. No, there was never any evidence found to 18 support that. 19 Q. You described a pond at the Anniston, 20 Alabama, plant. And I believe you were plant manager 21 during the years that we've talked about? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And that pond received the waste waters 24 from the plant which manufactured all these products 25 you've just described? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB- 90 1 A. No, I didn't mean to imply that. It 2 received the waste waters from portions of the plant, 3 and that portion is the part of the plant in which PCBs 4 were manufactured. 5 Q. All right. Was it a lined pond? 6 A. It was lined with clay. 7 Q. And did you consider a pond lined with clay 8 to be an acceptable receptacle for waste waters which 9 included waste waters associated with the manufacture of 10 PCBs? 11 A. Yes. At the time, yes. 12 Q. And why is that? 13 A. Well, we knew that the clays were very good 14 materials for containing PCBs. In fact, we had found 15 that they were a good filter medium. And we knew 16 that -- Of course, I've forgotten the proper depth of 17 clay bed required, but once you had the proper depth, 18 there was no evidence of any seepage of water into lower 19 surfaces. 20 Q. Could you be more technical in explaining 21 to me why clay would prevent leakage into the lower 22 surfaces? 23 A. Oh, I don't know. 24 MR. CASSIS: He said with respect to the 25 depth and condition of the clay. You need to qualify WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 1 that. Don't try to get his place down in Alabama 91 2 likened to your situation up there in Kentucky. 3 MR. GOEBEL: Well, I'll object to your 4 remarks. 5 MR. CASSIS: Well, you can object all you 6 want. I know what you're trying to do. This man's an 7 expert. He is not an expert on clay ponds. 8 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) Well, he was able to 9 describe it pretty particularly. And my question is 10 explain in a more technical sense how clay can prohibit 11 the seepage into the underlying surfaces. 12 A. I don't know that I can explain it in a 13 very sophisticated way technically, but I'm aware that 14 PCBs have a characteristic of adhering to particulate 15 matter. And in my mind, to help me understand it, I 16 visualize it as almost like an electromagnet attracting 17 iron filings. The PCBs adhere to these particles, and 18 the clay of a proper mesh size would supply enough 19 particle surface, and if it's deep enough and the water 20 pressure is such that it isn't pushing too drastically 21 downward, the PCBs would adhere to the clay particles. 22 And we learned that over a period of time, and this is 23 over decades of use, after a certain period of time we'd 24 go in there and scoop up this contaminated clay and then 25 take it somewhere else and then re-line the clay bed and WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD00000/ 92 1 drop in the crushed rock, which was part of this system 2 for neutralizing acid, and use it to really pretreat the 3 water before it went to the city sewer system. 4 Q. Well, so you would send the water in the 5 holding pond after it was treated to the city sewer 6 system? 7 A. That's where it would end up after a 8 holding period. I forget what period of time it was 9 held. 10 Q. And you thought that was an acceptable 11 means of disposal of that waste water that contained 12 PCBs? 13 A. Yes. 14 MR. CASSIS: At the Alabama plant. 15 THE WITNESS: At that time also, yes. 16 MR. CASSIS: That was in the ' 50s. 17 MR. GOEBEL: Excuse me. He's already 18 testified it was 1965 to ' 70. 19 MR. CASSIS: I apologize, Mr. Goebel. 20 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) You stated that in January 21 1970 you became manager of environmental control, and 22 that as a part of your responsibilities you caught up on 23 the PCB literature that was there and the studies that 24 had been done; is that correct? Is that a fair 25 characterization? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 93 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And that you provided that information to 3 the Monsanto sales representatives, and that you had 4 relied -- or that you had left it up to those sales 5 representatives to provide information to the customers, 6 Monsanto customers? 7 A. As one source of Monsanto information, yes. 8 Q. But you've testified that you don't recall 9 personally sending any information to Rockwell? 10 A. That is correct. 11 Q. Are there any records of any communications 12 that would have come from Monsanto sales reps to 13 Rockwell International? 14 A. Oh, I don't know personally of any records. 15 That doesn't mean they exist or don't exist. 16 Q. Would it have been discretionary with the 17 sales representatives as to what was communicated to the 18 customers? 19 A. Discretionary in terms of appropriateness. 20 For example, information regarding a heat transfer fluid 21 would not be relayed to a customer of hydraulic fluids. 22 So that' s where his discretion would enter. On the 23 other hand, talking about analytical methods or what the 24 FDA might be doing or what Monsanto is doing, those 25 things would be shared openly. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 94 1 Q. Well, not every bit of information you 2 provided to the sales representatives would go to each 3 of the customers; is that correct? 4 A. Not every. That's probably very correct, 5 yes, in the real world. 6 Q. And you have no record of actually what was 7 sent to the different customers of Monsanto? 8 MR. CASSIS: Objection. He's testified 9 what was sent to the customers of Monsanto. 10 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) You can go ahead and 11 answer. 12 A. The only record I have is the copies of the 13 written correspondence. What was communicated verbally 14 or what was communicated in writing and copies of which 15 were never sent to St. Louis, I have no record of. 16 Q. Did the different Arodors contain 17 different levels of PCBs, is that a fair statement, or 18 different percentage of PCB composition? 19 A. No. More correctly is that the different 20 Ar odors contained different proportions of the types of 21 PCBs from the one chlorine type to the ten chlorine 22 type. 23 Q. I guess I understand that. Well, I guess 24 what I'm -- Would a -- Well, maybe I should have asked, 25 would the different Pydraul products used, there were WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 95 1 different products, different Pydrauls that had 2 different kinds of Ar odors; is that right? 3 A. That is correct. 4 Q. And the content of the particular Pydraul 5 formulation may have contained different amounts of 6 PCBs, different percentages of PCBs? 7 A. Yes. PCBs as a family would vary from 8 Pydraul to Pydraul. And within each Pydraul there was a 9 different mixture of one chlorine, two chlorine, three 10 chlorine, four chlorine and so on, PCBs. 11 Q. All right. And the Swedish study that was 12 done in 1969 concluded that there were presence of 13 Aroclors 1254 and 1260 in the environment; is that true? 14 A. That was their -- yes, their conclusion. 15 Q. And may I assume from that study that they 16 didn't detect a significant level of the other Aroclors 17 or do you know? 18 A. Well, let me try to describe that. What 19 this analysis showed was a pattern of peaks and valleys 20 on a chart. 21 MR. CASSIS: We're talking about the 22 Swedish study? 23 A. The Swedish study. Peaks and valleys on 24 the chart. Each of the peaks represents one of the 25 types of PCBs, like the two chlorine and the three WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD00000' 1 chlorine and the four chlorine and so on. This 96 2 fingerprint that they saw contained not only the two, 3 the three, the four, but also the five, six, seven and 4 eight chlorine. That fingerprint, although it was not 5 exact, was very close to what Aroclor 1254 would show if 6 put through the instrument. This is why they said it's 7 similar to 1254 . I don't know if that helps any or not, 8 but this does not say that only the five, six and seven 9 was present. There were also, three, four and so on 10 present. 11 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) But it moreclosely 12 resembled the Aroclor 1254? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Or the 1260? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And those were the two Aroclors on which 17 you in 1969 thought there may be environmental problems? 18 It was related to those two Aroclors? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. Mr. Cassis asked somequestions about some 21 studies done in the early '70s relating to effects on 22 seals and the reproduction of birds. And you said that 23 there was a conclusion in one study that the culprit was 24 DDT? Do you recall that? 25 A. Yes. I thought I said the conclusion WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 97 1 regarding the birds, the peregrine falcon and the 2 pelicans finally were related to the DDT exposure. 3 Q. And you, I think, also said that the 4 inability of the seals to find enough food was also 5 another conclusion that was reached? 6 A. That's my understanding, yes. Uh-huh. 7 Q. Were you aware of any studies besides the 8 Swedish study that concluded that PCBs were the culprit? 9 I'm going to use your term. 10 A. I don't know that the Swedish studies 11 indicated they were culprits in anything. They were 12 just present. 13 Q. It didn't discuss the environmental hazards 14 of PCBs? 15 A. It did not, no. 16 Q. I guess then my question is, in the early 17 '70s were you aware of any studies, and I guess I'm 18 referring to those studies that you were referring to 19 when you were answering questions, that identified PCBs 20 as the culprit? 21 MR. CASSIS: Are you referring to Yusho, 22 the other ones that he talked about? 23 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) The ones that he talked 24 about. 25 A. As I mentioned earlier, there were early WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 98 1 preliminary conclusions that DDT and PCBs were both to 2 blame. It' s later, and I would suggest maybe as much as 3 two years later, that the conclusions were raised - 4 were reached that DDT was the true culprit. 5 Q. And not PCBs? 6 A. Not PCBs. These are the studies that I 7 mentioned. Of course, other studies followed through 8 the years. 9 Q. You started to say something about the 10 Yusho incident and the concerns that were involved 11 because of the rice oil, and you said that -- and I 12 didn't get your conclusions about that. You started to 13 tell us what they were, and then there was another 14 question interposed. You said that some of the symptoms 15 of the people may have been related to other things than 16 PCBs? 17 A. I did. 18 Q. And what did you conclude about the Yusho 19 incident? Was it the other - 20 A. It wasn't my conclusion. It was the 21 conclusion of a panel of experts made in a meeting on 22 PCBs in Chicago, November of '75 in which the symptoms 23 attributed to that Yusho oil exposure were attributed to 24 chlorinated dibenzofurans, a different chemical. 25 Q. Than PCB? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB- 99 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. You described the incineration service that 3 Monsanto put in place in the early '70s. Is it true 4 that there were other incineration services available in 5 the early to mid-1970's to incinerate PCB-containing 6 fluids -- fluids containing PCBs? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And so not every consumer of a fluid that 9 contained PCBs would have necessarily shipped them to 10 Monsanto for incineration? 11 A. That's true. 12 Q. You described the environmental statement 13 on the labels or it was an additional label on the 14 Pydrauls which contained PCBs after 19 -- or in 1970. 15 And do you have those -- Are copies of those labels 16 available? Does Monsanto have copies of those labels? 17 A. I've seen copies, yes. 18 Q. And would that label contain a reference to 19 the particular Pydraul formulas on which it was placed 20 or would it be a label, a generic label added to those 21 fluids containing PCBs? 22 A. It's a generic label that was affixed to 23 any product containing PCBs. 24 Q. Do you know which Pydraul fluids contained 25 the polychlorinated terphenyls in 1971? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 100 1 A. Those that are designated with the "A" 2 following the number. 3 Q. So Pydraul F-9-A would be a terphenyl 4 product? 5 A. A terphenyl version, yes. 6 Q. Any others? 7 A. Other what? 8 Q. Any other Pydraul formulas besides the ones 9 with the "A" designation? 10 A. The "A" would contain the terphenyls. 11 Q. And that could be -- We know that there is 12 Pydraul 312 A? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And F-9-A? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And 50 A? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And A-200-A? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. And those all would have been non-PCB 21 formulas, correct? 22 A. Correct. 23 MR. GOEBEL: Let's go off for a minute. 24 (Whereupon, a lunch recess was taken.) 25 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) Mr. Papageorge, let me ask WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB- 101 1 some questions about what you did to prepare for the 2 deposition today. When did you first learn about this 3 lawsuit involving Commercial Union and Rockwell? 4 A. 1 don't remember the exact date. I would 5 suggest in the past six months sometime. 6 Q. And how did you learn about it? 7 A. A Monsanto Company legal assistant called 8 me and asked me what dates I had available, and I at 9 that time gave them to her. That's my first contact. 10 Q. Other than talking to that legal assistant 11 for Monsanto, who else did you talk to in preparing for 12 the deposition? 13 A. Mr. Gerard Davidson. 14 Q. Anyone else? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Have you ever spoken to Mr. Cassis before 17 today? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Or anyone from his office? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Were you ever provided withany documents 22 from Mr. Cassis' office to review in preparation for 23 your deposition? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Have you ever spoken toanyone at WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 102 1 Commercial Union Insurance Company - 2 A. No. 3 Q. -- about this case? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Did anyone from Commercial Union provide 6 you with any documents to review? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Have you reviewed any documents other than 9 those that we have identified today as Exhibits 1 10 through 13, I believe it is? 11 A. There was one additional document that I 12 reviewed. 13 Q. Do you recall what it was? 14 A. This was the document prepared by 15 Monsanto's legal department showing the sales of Pydraul 16 to the Russellville location. 17 Q. Do you have a copy of that with you today? 18 A. I don't have it. 19 Q. Your attorney does? 20 A. I have to assume that. 21 Q. By the way, the counsel that's with you 22 here today, I assume he was retained by Monsanto to be 23 here for you? 24 A. That's my understanding. 25 Q. Your name has come up on several occasions. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD00000' 103 1 How many depositions have you given on behalf of 2 Monsanto? 3 MR. CASSIS: Objection. What do you mean 4 his name's come up on several occasions? 5 MR. GOEBEL: Well, it's appeared in 6 Rockwell Corporation as a person with knowledge about 7 some of the things we have discussed today. I didn't 8 mean to imply - 9 MR. CASSIS: Yeah, I think he'd have 10 knowledge about it. He was the man in charge of all 11 this. 12 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) Well, my question is, on 13 how many occasions have you given depositions about the 14 matters we've talked about today? 15 MR. CASSIS: Objection. 16 A. Since 1973, about two dozen. I haven't 17 kept a score sheet. 18 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) Were you custodian of the 19 records that we have shown you today? 20 A. I am not. 21 Q. Do you know who is ? 22 A. I believe it's somebody in Monsanto's legal 23 department. 24 Q. What has been the substance of -- Strike 25 that. Have you testified in cases where Monsanto has WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007' 104 1 been sued where it has been alleged that they failed to 2 warn about the dangers of PCBs? 3 A. Yes. I remember some allegations of that 4 type, yes. 5 Q. And in how many such cases have you given 6 testimony? 7 A. Oh, geez, I just don' t recall. I'd be 8 guessing. I don't know. I'd have to go through the 9 list mentally. 10 Q. Well, you've given testimony in about two 11 dozen cases. So it would be something less than that? 12 A. Yes.Allegations of failure to share 13 information, about ten of them. That's a rough, very 14 rough estimate. 15 Q. And to your knowledge in all of those cases 16 has Monsanto taken the position that it did, in fact, 17 adequately warn about the dangers of PCBs? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. To your knowledge has Monsanto ever taken a 20 different position than that? 21 A. Not that I know of. 22 Q. And if they did, it could subject them to 23 enormous liability, couldn't it? 24 MR. CASSIS: Objection. 25 MR. DAVIDSON: Object to that. Move to WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD00000'/ 105 1 strike. It doesn't quite seem relevant or in his area 2 of knowledge, information. What was alleged in a 3 lawsuit is not something he necessarily knows anything 4 about. 5 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) If you can answer the 6 question. 7 A. I just -- I don't have an answer. I don't 8 know. 9 Q. Have you ever testified in a case for 10 Monsanto regarding warnings given for Pydraul 11 formulations? 12 A. I beli eve that came up as an issue. I 13 don't recall it being that specific, however. 14 Q. Do you recall the name of that case? 15 A. Yes. I refer to it as the Stroh case. 16 Q. I'm sorry? 17 A. S-t-r-o-h. 18 Q. Was that the name of one of the parties 19 involved? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. 22 you know? And that was a plaintiff in a case or do 23 A. 24 Q. 25 pending? Yes, plaintiff. And do you recall in what court that was WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB- 106 1 A. That was in, as I recall -- And I'm not too 2 certain of this. As I recall, it was a state court in 3 Milwaukee. 4 Q. Do you have a copy of the testimony you 5 gave in that case? 6 A. I do not. 7 Q. Do you recall any others involving warnings 8 that Monsanto allegedly gave to consumers of Pydraul 9 fluids? 10 A. I don't recall any other involving 11 Pydrauls. 12 Q. Have you ever testified in a case that 13 involved Aroclor 1268? 14 A. 1268? 15 Q. Yes, sir. 16 A. No. 17 Q. Has anyoneconnected withCommercial Union, 18 that is, any representatives, including their attorneys, 19 asked you or Monsanto, if you know, for documents? 20 A. No one has asked me, and I can't speak for 21 Monsanto. 22 Q. Are you aware theRockwell personnel have 23 testified that no one at the Russellville plant learned 24 of environmental PCB contamination at the Russellville 25 facility until 1985? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 107 1 MR. CASSIS: Objection. That's not what 2 the record says, and that's an unfair characterization 3 of the record. 4 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) You can go ahead and 5 answer. 6 MR. CASSIS: And let that objection be a 7 strong one on the record. Show it strong. 8 MR. DAVIDSON: Put it in bold. 9 A. I'm not aware of any such comment. 10 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) Do you -- I'm sorry? 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. You're not aware. Wasthat youranswer? 13 A. That' s right. 14 Q. Do you have anypersonalknowledge that 15 Rockwell learned of PCB contamination at Russellville 16 before 1985? 17 MR. CASSIS: Same objection. 18 A. I can only rely on the information I got 19 from Monsanto representatives regarding that kind of 20 information. 21 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) That wouldn't be based on 22 your own personal knowledge. It would be based on what 23 someone else told you? 24 A. That is correct. 25 Q. And what was said? What did the WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 108 1 representative of Monsanto tell you? 2 A. Of course, I don't recall the exact words, 3 but the essence of that was that Rockwell was tuned into 4 the PCB issue, that they were a very sophisticated 5 company. They had resources to manage this kind of 6 issue. That's the kind of information I got from my 7 contacts. 8 Q. And can you give me the identity of those 9 people who made those statements? 10 A. Well, certainly Mr. Norman Johnson. 11 Q. And what was his position with Monsanto? 12 A. He was the manager in charge of marketing 13 the Pydrauls. 14 Q. And when did you have this conversation 15 with him? 16 A. Oh, from the period 1970 through ' 72. 17 Q. Who else? 18 A. I recall a conversation with another 19 individual, but I don't recall whether -- just who that 20 person was. 21 Q. I'm sorry. You may have answered this 22 question. Is Mr. Johnson still alive? 23 A. Yes. The last I heard, yes. 24 Q. My earlier question was -- Strike that. 25 You don't know when PCBs were released into the WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 109 1 environment at Russellville, do you? 2 A. I do not. 3 Q. Nor has anyone told you when they were 4 released? 5 A. That is correct. 6 Q. And you don't know when Rockwelldiscovered 7 that there had been releases? 8 A. That is correct. 9 Q. Do you know if Monsanto maintains files on 10 each of its current and former customers, purchasers of 11 PCB-containing fluids? 12 A. You used the currenttense. You mean 13 today? 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. I do not know that. 16 Q. Well, in 1986 when youretired? 17 A. In 1986 I was aware that records of that 18 type were being retained in Monsanto's files. 19 Q. Do you know how they were kept? By 20 corporation, for instance, Rockwell International, or 21 any of its former corporations? 22 A. No, I do not know the system used. 23 Q. Have you seen anything in addition to the 24 to the documents we have reviewed today that would be in 25 a file kept regarding Rockwell International? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 110 1 A. Oh, since I don't know what system of 2 filing was used, I just don't know what would have been 3 in a file of the type you describe. 4 Q. Could you give me the name of the custodian 5 of the records for Monsanto, the ones that we've talked 6 about today? 7 A. I have no way of knowing who is the current 8 custodian. All I know, it's somebody in Monsanto's 9 legal department. 10 Q. I want to refer you to Papageorge Exhibit 11 13, specifically the Bate stamp No. 5 at the bottom 12 right-hand corner. 13 A. I have it. 14 Q. Could you generally tell me with respect to 15 Aroclor 1268 the types of operations such an Aroclor 16 would have been used in or used for? 17 MR. DAVIDSON: Can we go off the record a 18 minute? 19 (Whereupon, a discussion was held off the record.) 20 MR. CASSIS: Make another objection. 21 Object to the question. 22 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) You can go ahead and 23 answer. 24 MR. DAVIDSON: Well, wait a minute. Don't 25 answer yet. I have reason to believe this is for the WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007I 111 1 purpose of another lawsuit. And on that grounds I'm 2 going to instruct him not to answer questions about 1268 3 unless it' s involved in this lawsuit. 4 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) Well, is askarel a product 5 in which Aroclor 1268 can be found or was found? 6 A. No. 7 MR. GOEBEL: Well, certify the question. 8 MR. DAVIDSON: You don't have to answer. 9 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) WouldMonsanto have any 10 records of the names of customers to whom Aroclor 1268 11 was sold? 12 MR. DAVIDSON: Object. Don't answer the 13 question. 14 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) Are you on the advice of 15 counsel not answering the question? 16 A. Yes. 17 MR. GOEBEL: Please certify the question. 18 MR. CASSIS: Are you trying to get to 19 something in another case? If you are, don't be doing 20 it. If you're not, you've got some legitimate 21 questions, we'll go along with it. 22 MR. GOEBEL: I don't have to explain why 23 I'm asking these questions. 24 MR. CASSIS: Well, if in good faith you're 25 not doing it. If it's got something to do with another WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 112 1 case, that's one thing. Go ahead and ask your 2 questions. 3 MR. GOEBEL: Well, is it my understanding 4 you will not let him answer any questions about Aroclor 5 1268? 6 MR. DAVIDSON: Not unless you demonstrate 7 to me that, and you all agree, that that's involved in 8 this lawsuit. I know you've got it involved in other 9 litigation and you want to ask questions about it. And 10 if Mr. Papageorge is deposed in that litigation, he will 11 answer questions about it, but I'm not going to let you 12 depose him here for that lawsuit. He wasn't prepared 13 for it, and I just don't think it's generally 14 appropriate. 15 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) Can you tell me if Aroclor 16 1268 disintegrates or degrades when exposed to liquid 17 hydrocarbons? 18 MR. DAVIDSON: Object. Instruct you not to 19 answer. 20 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) Based on advice of counsel 21 are you not answering the question? 22 A. That is correct. 23 MR. GOEBEL: Certify the question, please. 24 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) If Aroclor 1268 remains in 25 a closed system would it present any risk of injury to WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 113 1 people? 2 MR. CASSIS: Same kind of general objection 3 to those questions. Continuing and general. 4 MR. DAVIDSON: Object. I instruct you not 5 to answer. 6 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) You're refusing to answer? 7 A. On advice of counsel, yes. 8 MR. GOEBEL: Certify that one, too. 9 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) I'm going to try and take 10 these documents in the order in which you talked about 11 them this morning. 12 MR. DAVIDSON: Starting with 1 - 13 MR. GOEBEL: That would be the right - 14 MR. DAVIDSON: -- I assume? 15 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) You have Papageorge 16 Exhibit No. 1? 17 A. I do. 18 Q. You're familiar with that document, are you 19 not? 20 A. I am. 21 Q. Is the reference in the first paragraph to 22 the newspaper and magazine articles about PCBs, is that 23 the one on the Swedish study, as best you remember? 24 A. That was one of the studies referred. 25 There were, of course, others. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB- 114 1 Q. Others that found Arodors 1254 and 1260 in 2 the environment? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And this February 9, 1970, letter discusses 5 the presence of Aroclors 1254 and 1260 in the 6 environment, correct? 7 A. Well, more correctly, it discusses 8 materials identified as resembling Aroclor 1254 and 1260 9 as being found in samples taken from the environment. 10 Q. And it doesn't discuss PCBs resembling 11 other Aroclors as being present in the environment, 12 correct? 13 A. That is correct, at this time. 14 Q. And it also identifies those Pydraul 15 formulas in which those two Aroclors were found are 16 included in those particular formulas? 17 A. It does. 18 Q. And that's in the secondparagraph of that 19 letter? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And in the thirdparagraph of that letter 22 it states that, "As your supplier of Aroclor 1254 and 23 1260 and formulated products containing 1254, we wish to 24 alert you to the potential problem of environmental 25 contamination as referred to in the newspaper and WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 115 1 magazine articles." It does not refer to any Aroclors 2 other than those two? 3 A. That is correct. 4 Q. And it additionally points out that there 5 are other Pydraul formulations which do not contain 6 those particular Aroclors? 7 A. It does. 8 Q. And we identified this morning some of the 9 Pydraul formulations that the Russellville plant used, 10 and I believe you testified it was F-9, A-200, 312? 11 A. Yes, I did. 12 MR. CASSIS: Wait. I want to object. He 13 said it included those. There were many others, many 14 others he said, that it also provided to Russellville. 15 So don't just limit it to that. 16 MR. GOEBEL: I disagree with you, Charlie, 17 but I will ask you, Mr. Papageorge -- 18 MR. CASSIS: We'll just get that in on 19 redirect. 20 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) Are you aware of any other 21 PCB-containing Pydraul fluids other than 312, A-200 or 22 F-9 which were used at the Russellville manufacturing 23 facility? 24 A. I am aware that those three types of 25 Pydrauls were shipped to the Russellville plant. I do WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 116 1 not know where they were used. 2 Q. Fair enough. 3 A. Or if other Pydrauls were sent from other 4 locations. I don't know that. 5 Q. Well, are you aware of any other 6 PCB-containing Pydraul fluids other than the three you 7 just identified as being shipped to the Russellville 8 facility? 9 A. I am not. 10 Q. And in the very bottom of that page it 11 states that "PCBs with a chlorine content of less than 12 54 percent have not been found in the environment." Is 13 that a true statement at the time this letter was 14 written? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And it further states, "And appear to 17 present no potential problem to the environment." Was 18 that a true statement at the time? 19 A. At that time, yes. 20 Q. Am I to assume by this statement that the 21 Pydrauls listed in the numbered paragraph No. 1 on that 22 page, that is, 312, A-200, F-9 contained a chlorine 23 content of less than 54 percent? 24 A. Well, paragraph one states that they are 25 not formulated with Aroclor 54 and 1260. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 117 1 Q. Fifty-four having 54percent chlorine 2 content, and 1260 having 60 percent? 3 A. That is correct. 4 Q. Do you know when Monsantostopped 5 manufacturing Pydrauls 312, A-200 and F-9? 6 A. Sometime in 1971. 7 Q. Let me hand you Papageorge Exhibit No. 4. 8 You're familiar with that document, are you not? 9 A. I am. 10 Q. And that's a letter which is similar to the 11 Exhibit 1, isn't it, except that it identifies different 12 trade names under which Aroclors 1254 -- Actually, it 13 identifies only the Aroclor 1254 and 1260 as the trade 14 names under which Monsanto sold chlorinated biphenyls 15 containing 54 percent and 60 percent chlorine? 16 A. That is correct. 17 Q. And at the bottom of that page it 18 identifies some other Aroclors that do not contain PCBs? 19 A. That is correct. 20 Q. Would those be the PCT formulas that we 21 talked about this morning? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. In particular, which onewould be the one 24 that was shipped to -- based on your knowledge, shipped 25 to the Russellville facility? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007' 118 1 A. Oh, I don't know. 2 Q. Let me show you Papageorge Exhibit No. 2. 3 A. I have it. 4 Q. Polychlorinated terphenyls would be a 5 chlorinated component; is that right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And this letter references polychlorinated 8 terphenyls as opposed to PCBs which you've already 9 testified to is something other than a terphenyl? 10 A. Yes. 11 MR. DAVIDSON: Could you read that question 12 back, please? 13 (Whereupon, the reporter read back the last question.) 14 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) Please refer to Papageorge 15 Exhibit No. 7. 16 A. I have it. 17 Q. To your knowledge was askarel used at the 18 Russellville facility? 19 A. 1 don't know. 20 Q. This -- Let me refer you to 7, 8, and 10. 21 A. I have them. 22 Q. Those letters all concern the incineration 23 of askarel fluids, correct? 24 A. That's what they refer to, yes. 25 Q. And you have no knowledge whether anyone at WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 119 1 the Russellville manufacturing facility would have had 2 any knowledge of what was going on at Golden, Colorado? 3 A. No, I'm in no position to know that. 4 Q. And these letters do not mention PCBs, do 5 they? 6 MR. CASSIS: Objection. It mentions 7 askarels. 8 A. Well, specifically PCBs are not mentioned. 9 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) Let me refer you to 10 Exhibit No. 10 which is -- I'm sorry -- Exhibit No. 9, 11 which is a letter similar to the ones we just looked at, 12 except there is a reference to Pydraul F-9. 13 A. I see that. 14 Q. Aga in, you have no knowledge whether anyone 15 from Russellville would have seen this letter or known 16 about incineration of Pydraul F-9 from the Columbus, 17 Ohio, plant? 18 A. I have no knowledge on that. 19 Q. And there is also no reference, specific 20 reference to PCBs in this letter, is there? 21 MR. CASSIS: Let me see that. 22 A. Well, I see a reference to chlorinated 23 biphenyls in the first paragraph on the second page. 24 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) And that's a reference to 25 askarel containing chlorinated biphenyls? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB- 120 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Not Pydraul F-9? 3 A. That's correct. 4 MR. GOEBEL: Let me handyou some documents 5 which will have to be marked as exhibits. 6 (Whereupon, a discussion was held off the record.) 7 (Reporter marked for identification Papageorge 8 Deposition Exhibit No. 14.) 9 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) Why don't you take a 10 minute to review what we've handed you which has been 11 marked as Exhibit 14, please. 12 MR. CASSIS: Does this have a date or 13 anything on it? 14 MR. GOEBEL: No. 15 (Whereupon, a discussion was held off the record.) 16 A. I have glanced through the document. 17 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) Are you familiar with that 18 document? 19 A. I have seen it in the past, yes. 20 Q. Do you know who prepared that document? 21 A. I do not. 22 Q. Do you know when it was prepared? 23 A. Very roughly, early '60s is as close as I 24 can come. 25 Q. Would you describe generally what it is? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB- 121 1 A. This is a product brochure or bulletin 2 which describes the Monsanto product Pydraul F-9, its 3 properties and potential usage in gaskets and sealants 4 that could be used in systems in which this Pydraul F-9 5 is used. 6 Q. There is no mention in that document that 7 Pydraul F-9 contains PCBs, is there? 8 A. That is correct. 9 Q. And the only harms discussed are acute 10 harms from exposure to skin, the eyes and from 11 inhalation; is that true? 12 A. That is true. 13 Q. There is no mention that Pydraul poses a 14 danger to the environment in that document? 15 A. That is true. 16 Q. It does not say anything about disposal of 17 Pydraul, does it? 18 A. It does not. 19 Q. And on page 3 it states that it is safe to 20 use and that no special handling is required, does it 21 not? 22 MR. CASSIS: Have you provided these 23 documents to me in discovery? 24 MR. GOEBEL: These were provided -- Yes, 25 they were. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 122 1 MR. CASSIS: Let the record show that the 2 documents he's using were provided to -- When were these 3 provided? 4 MR. GOEBEL: In that production - 5 MR. CASSIS: Do you have the Bates number 6 of those productions? What I want to get on the 7 record -- Just a minute. Do you have the Bates numbers 8 on these that were produced? 9 MR. GOEBEL: I don't know, Charlie, but I 10 know they were produced. 11 MR. CASSIS: Okay. 12 MR. WEINREB: I assume so. 13 MR. CASSIS: You assume so, because I don't 14 remember seeing them. 15 MR. WEINREB: You say "them." What are you 16 talking about? 17 MR. CASSIS: Documents you're about to use 18 with this witness. 19 MR. WEINREB: This right here? 20 MR. CASSIS: All the documents you're 21 getting ready to use with this witness. 22 MR. GOEBEL: I'm almost sure that you have 23 those documents. 24 MR. CASSIS: You're getting ready to use a 25 lot of documents -- I want this on the record. You're WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB- 123 1 getting ready to use a lot of documents. 2 MR. GOEBEL: Why don't we take them one at 3 a time? 4 MR. CASSIS: Has this one been produced to 5 me? 6 MR. GOEBEL: I'm almost positive, but there 7 may be an oversight. 8 MR. CASSIS: Let the record show any 9 document that he uses that was not produced, I object to 10 and move to strike from any reference in this 11 deposition. I don't remember seeing this document. 12 MR. GOEBEL: Would you read back my last 13 question, please? 14 (Whereupon, the reporter read from the record as 15 follows: "QUESTION: And on page 3 it states that it is 16 safe to use and that no special handling is required, 17 does it not?") 18 A. There is a reference to the no special 19 handling is required, and this refers to special 20 handling as it relates to liquids used in industrial 21 hydraulic systems. It's further amplified later on on 22 page 18 of the document under the section that refers to 23 toxicity and safe handling information. 24 Q. All right. And you've already testified 25 that there was no reference at all on the disposal of WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB- 1 Pydraul F-9? 124 2 A. No, because the emphasis is on reclaiming 3 which is section 9 of the article -- of the pamphlet. 4 MR. CASSIS: Thank you. 5 (Reporter marked for identification Papageorge 6 Deposition Exhibits Nos. 15 and 16.) 7 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) Let me hand you Exhibits 8 15 and 16. Why don't you take a moment and review 9 those, please. 10 A. I have reviewed them. 11 Q. You're familiar with those documents? 12 A. I have seen them before, yes. 13 Q. First of all, why don't you reference 14 Exhibit 15 and tell me what that is, please? 15 A. It's a copy of a letter, the letterhead 16 American Mutual Liability Insurance Company, authored by 17 a Mr. Stephen B. Logan, Louisville Branch Engineer, 18 addressed to Monsanto Chemical Company, and the letter 19 is dated August 29, 1960. 20 Q. And it's a request for information on 21 Pydraul F-200? 22 A. It is. 23 Q. There is actually no Pydraul F-200. It was 24 A-200 , I believe. 25 A. That is the correct designation, yes. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB- 125 1 Q. And it asks for whether there are any 2 health and fire hazards and the toxic hazards associated 3 with that product, does it not? 4 A. It does ask that. 5 Q. 6 letter? 7 A. 8 Q. And is Exhibit No. 16 a response to that It is. In the second paragraph of Exhibit 16 9 toward the middle of that paragraph it discusses the 10 hazards as being accidental ingestion of the fluid, 11 repeated skin contact and that exposure should be 12 avoided to prevent skin irritation, correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And in the following paragraph there is a 15 reference to hazards associated with inhalation of the 16 product, is there not? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. This letter does not mention any 19 environmental dangers associated with Pydraul F -- or 20 I'm sorry -- Pydraul A-200? 21 A. No, those were not known in 1960. 22 Q. But they are not mentionedeither? 23 A. That's true. 24 Q. There is also no reference to the fact that 25 Pydraul A-200 contained PCBs, is there? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007I 126 1 A. Well, there is a reference to chlorinated 2 hydrocarbons which is the generic term for that type of 3 chemical. 4 Q. "That type of chemical" being? 5 A. 6 PCBs. 7 Q. 8 Chlorinated hydrocarbon, which includes It could include other things? MR. CASSIS: Let him finish his answer, 9 please. Don't be rude. 10 A. It does include a whole host of chemicals, 11 carbon tetrachloride, trichloroethylene, chlorinated 12 benzene, on and on, all of which have similar health 13 effects. 14 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) It does not identify 15 polychlorinated biphenyls as a component? 16 A. That is true. 17 Q. There are three attachments; is that 18 correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Are you familiar with those brochures on 21 Pydraul A-200? 22 A. I have seen them before. I don't remember 23 everything that's in them, but I have seen them. 24 Q. Is a fair characterization of these 25 attachments that any dangers associated with Pydraul WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 127 1 A-200 are with respect to skin contact or eye irritation 2 or inhalation of the product? 3 MR. CASSIS: I'm sorry. I don't understand 4 the question. 5 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) Let's take them one at a 6 time. The first attachment is "Monsanto Introduces ... 7 Pydraul A-200." 8 A. I see that. 9 Q. On the last page of that document in the 10 last paragraph it says, "Repeated or continuous skin 11 contact should be avoided and inhalation of the vapors 12 at elevated temperatures should be prevented. Pydraul 13 A-200 is only mildly irritating to the eyes (but can 14 cause pain) and like any other synthetic hydraulic 15 fluid, it exerts a solvent-type type action on the skin. 16 Where prolonged contact cannot be avoided, gloves should 17 be worn." Other than those hazards associated with skin 18 contact and inhalation, are there any other warnings on 19 the use or disposal of Pydraul A-200? 20 A. No, you don't need any other. If these are 21 met, you don't worry about greater exposures. This is 22 the early warning symptom control. If you control that, 23 you don't have to worry about the more hazardous 24 exposures. That's the intent of these kinds of 25 statements. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007( 128 1 Q. We talked earlier about an employee 2 statement warning and an environmental warning. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. This would fall in the category of an 5 employee statement warning of hazard associated with the 6 product? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. There are no environmental warnings in this 9 particular brochure? 10 A. No, none were known? therefore, it could 11 not be communicated. 12 Q. Well, thefact is none were communicated? 13 MR. CASSIS: Tony, he's told you what his 14 answer is. Objection. 15 A. There were none tocommunicate. 16 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) Let' s go through the 17 second attachment to the letter, and it's entitled 18 "Monsanto Fluids for Specialized Engineering." 19 A. 20 Q. 21 A. 22 Q. 23 prepared? I see that. Are you familiar with that document? Yes, sir. Do you know when this document was 24 A. I don't know. 25 Q. There is no warning about the potential WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 129 1 harm to the environment associated with the use of these 2 fluids, is there? 3 MR. CASSIS: You're speaking of the 4 attachment to this September 1, 1960, letter? 5 MR. GOEBEL: The one entitled "Monsanto 6 Fluids for Specialized Engineering." 7 MR. CASSIS: I know. That's the one 8 attached to the September 1, 1960, letter. 9 MR. GOEBEL: Right. 10 A. Well, again, at that time no effects or 11 presence in the environment were known; therefore, 12 nothing could be communicated in that vein. 13 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) Let's go to the third 14 attachment to the September 1, 1960, letter, which 15 entitled " Know Your Hydraulic Fire Hazards." 16 A. I have it. 17 Q. Do you recognize that document? 18 A. I do. 19 Q. 20 A. 21 Q. 22 generally? Do you know when it was prepared? I do not. Why don't you describe that document 23 A. It's a document that describes the 24 fire-resistance properties of the Pydraul product line. 25 That's the principal purpose of this document. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007I 130 1 Q. And it doesn't mention PCBs in it, does it? 2 A. No, it doesn't. 3 Q. And it doesn't have any warning about the 4 potential harm to the environment? 5 A. That is correct. 6 Q. You told me that the designation after some 7 of the Pydraul formulas with the letter "A" meant that 8 it contained polychlorinated terphenyls? 9 A. This is the "A" after -- at the tail end, 10 the very last. 11 Q. Yes. 12 A. Uh-huh. Yes. 13 Q. What did the designation "B" after such a 14 number or Pydraul formula stand for? 15 A. That designation, as best I recall, 16 referred to the formulations that, of course, didn't 17 contain any chlorinated chemical and contained a 18 phosphate ester as the fire-resistant ingredient. 19 Q. And what about formulas with the letter "C" 20 designation after the formula number? 21 A. "C" and "E" also had phosphate esters in 2 2 them. 23 Q. Are you aware of any -- Well, let me ask it 24 this way, this morning you said that you had received 25 the drafts of some of the letters that went out. And I WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000001 131 1 can go back and refer to them specifically. In 2 particular, I think, Exhibits 1, 2, and 3, there had 3 been drafts circulated before the letters were 4 finalized. Would -- Did anyone keep a copy of those 5 drafts? 6 A. I don't know. 7 Q. Did you? 8 A. No. I never keep rough drafts, no. 9 Q. Do you recall inparticular what changes 10 you proposed to the initialdraft of the letters? 11 A. No. That's 20 years ago. No, I don't 12 remember. 13 MR. GOEBEL: Give me just a minute. I 14 might be done. That's all I have. Thank you. 15 CROSS-EXAMINATION 16 QUESTIONS BY MR. PRICE: 17 Q. Mr. Papageorge, I'm Gene Price. I 18 represent Home Insurance, the third-party defendant in 19 this case. Very quickly -- I'll be much quicker than my 20 predecessors. Mr. Goebel asked you a couple questions 21 about some PCBs products which included some Arodors of 22 various numbers and phosphorous pentasulfide. These are 23 all products manufactured by Monsanto which contain 24 PCBs. After 19 -- I'm sorry. You were going to say 25 something? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB- 132 1 A. You mention phosphorous pentasulfide. 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. Does not contain PCBs. 4 Q. It does not contain? 5 A. No. I didn't want to mislead you. 6 Q. After May of 1971 did all these products 7 contain an environmental warning label on however they 8 were shipped in the package? 9 A. It's after May 1970 they had an 10 environmental statement on those products that contained 11 PCBs of any type, as long as they were chlorinated 12 biphenyls. 13 Q. Right. On Exhibit 14, which was given to 14 you by Mr. Goebel, on Section 9, page 17, I believe 15 there is a recommendation that was made by Monsanto in 16 this, I guess it was a brochure that was used in 17 marketing tests of Pydraul F-9 products. Could you look 18 in that first paragraph and read the third sentence, 19 please. 20 A. Read the third sentence? 21 Q. Yeah. 22 A. The one that starts with " Therefore"? 23 Q. Yes, sir. 24 A. "Therefore fluid recovery should be a 25 definite part of the maintenance program where fluid WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 133 1 losses are appreciable." 2 Q. Was that a recommendation on the part of 3 Monsanto to the customer to recycle or reclaim all the 4 Pydraul if there was, in fact, the prospect of some 5 serious losses of the product into the environment or 6 the work area? 7 A. Yes, definitely. 8 Q. And Exhibits 14, 15 and 16, to the best of 9 your knowledge, were all these letters, brochures, 10 whatever they are, were they all produced before the 11 Swedish study of 1966? 12 A. Yes. Yeah, at least a decade before. 13 Q. And certainly before your knowledge of the 14 Swedish study? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Which I believe youtestified came in 1969? 17 A. Yes. 18 MR. PRICE: That's all I've got. 19 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 20 QUESTIONS BY MR. CASSIS: 21 Q. Yeah, I just have a few more questions. 22 Now benzofuran, that's a byproduct of PCB, is it not? 23 A. I have a little problem withthedefinition 24 of byproduct. Many people have different 25 understandings. It is an unwanted contaminant that WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 134 1 under certain conditions can be produced as the PCBs are 2 produced. 3 Q. All right. So they are certainly a 4 PCB-related product, if we don't want to call it a 5 byproduct? 6 A. Like I say, under certain conditions you 7 can get it, yes. 8 Q. Mr. Goebel asked you several questions 9 about the sales of product to Rockwell at Russellville 10 concerning some of the Pydraul that did not contain 11 PCBs. Do you recall that question? 12 A. Yes. I think I do, yeah. 13 Q. And you also testified that you had 14 reviewed the product which was shipped to Rockwell at 15 the Russellville facility over the years; is that not 16 correct? 17 A. That is correct. 18 Q. And isn't it true that the majority and 19 most of the product, the Pydraul shipped to Rockwell at 20 the Russellville facility there was -- contained PCBs? 21 MR. GOEBEL: Object to the 22 characterization. 23 Q. (By Mr. Cassis) Fine. Let himanswer it. 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Okay. Now, what relationship are PCTs to WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 135 1 PCBs, if you can answer? 2 A. I don't know that there is necessarily a 3 relationship. They have some common features, I guess I 4 could call them. They, of course, both contain 5 chlorine -6 Q. Okay. A. -- attached to carbons in the chemical 8 molecules. There is a relationship in that the benzene 9 or phenyl rung is associated with both of them. The 10 biphenyls have two of these rings, and the terphenyls 11 have three. That's as close as I can get to describing 12 the relationships. 13 Q. Okay. When Mr. Bergen, about whom you 14 spoke this morning, said in his letter of January 31, 15 1972, "We have decided to stop using polychlorinated 16 terphenyls as a component in our fluids. Our new fluids 17 will contain no chlorinated components," do you recall 18 that? 19 A. 1 do. 20 Q. Why did he advise customers who were using 21 that type of Pydraul that information? 22 MR. GOEBEL: Object to the state of mind of 23 the question. 24 Q. (By Mr. Cassis) Go ahead and answer. 25 A. At that point in time Monsanto's research WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007I 136 1 department had found that the substitution of phosphate 2 esters resulted in a very acceptable product. Since the 3 phosphate esters were now available to Monsanto as a 4 tailor-made product made in a special unit design form, 5 it was decided that Monsanto might as well use that 6 capacity and eliminate any reference to chlorinated 7 hydrocarbon, which -- 8 Q. Would that have included the terphenyls? 9 A. Terphenyls and any chlorinated. The whole 10 idea was to get away from any chlorine containing 11 chemical. 12 Q. Which would be both PCBs and the PCTs? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. Now, F-9, did thatcontain PCBs? 15 A. Yes. 16 MR. CASSIS: Okay. One last question -- Or 17 I think we have established that. That's all. 18 MR. GOEBEL: Off the record. 19 (Whereupon, a discussion was held off the record.) 20 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 21 QUESTIONS BY MR. DAVIDSON: 22 Q. On the record. I had one question I wanted 23 to clarify. In the discussion with respect to the Yusho 24 incident in 1968 where you referred to -- or the 25 questions and your answers referred to PCBs being WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 137 1 involved, were those PCBs manufactured by Monsanto? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Do we know who they were manufactured by? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And who was that? 6 A. Kanegafuchi, the chemicalproducer in 7 Japan. 8 Q. I think there is one other matter I'd like 9 to clarify, and I'd like you to refer to what's been 10 marked as Exhibit 5, which was discussed earlier this 11 morning. At some point in time did Monsanto determine 12 that not only were Aroclor 1254 and 1260 appearing as 13 environmental contaminants, but that the lower 14 chlorinated materials might be as well? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And approximately when was that? 17 A. As best as I recall, late '70, early '71. 18 Q. All right. And did Monsanto, in turn, 19 decide to remove all polychlorinated biphenyls from 20 their Pydraul fluid? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And was thatdone and when? 23 A. As Iremember,polychlorinated biphenyls 24 were removed from all of the Pydrauls in '71. 25 Q. Okay. And is Exhibit 5 a letter sent, a WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000001 138 1 general customer mailing that PCBs had been removed from 2 all Pydrauls? 3 MR. GOEBEL: I'm going to object to the 4 form. The document speaks for itself. 5 Q. (By Mr. Davidson) Okay. You can go ahead 6 and answer. 7 A. This document shows as of April 15th 8 Mr. Bradford informing customers that no PCBs were in 9 any Pydraul fluids sold as of that point in time. 10 MR. DAVIDSON: That's all. 11 MR. CASSIS: Go ahead. I don't have any 12 more questions. 13 MR. GOEBEL: I've got one more. 14 MR. CASSIS: I don't have any more 15 questions. I just want to get something straight for 16 the record. 17 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 18 QUESTIONS BY MR. GOEBEL: 19 Q. Okay. Are you aware of any other 20 correspondence in Monsanto's records that went to 21 Rockwell International, Rockwell Manufacturing or 22 Rockwell Standard other than the ones we've talked about 23 today? 24 A. No, I have not. 25 Q. You were just asked if Rockwell made a WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 139 1 decision to -- Strike that. You were just asked whether 2 the lower chlorinated materials were appearing as 3 contaminants in the environment, and that Monsanto made 4 a decision to remove those from its products. In any of 5 the documents we have seen today is there any warning 6 from Monsanto regarding the lower chlorinated biphenyls 7 or lower chlorinated materials other than their mention 8 in Exhibit Mo. 1? 9 MR. CASSIS: Objection. 10 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) And I'm going to - 11 MR. CASSIS: Whatever it says in Exhibit 1. 12 Whatever is there, is there. The document speaks for 13 itself. 14 MR. GOEBEL: Let me strike the question. 15 Start over. All right? 16 MR. CASSIS: Okay. 17 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) Your counsel asked if 18 whether Monsanto decided -- or whether the lower 19 chlorinated components appeared as contaminants in the 20 environment, and you said yes, correct? 21 A. I thought the question was a little bit 22 different. 23 Q. What -- We can have it read back. 24 A. Yes. I thought the question related to 25 were the lower chlorinated types of PCBs contributing to WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 1 the PCBs being found in the environment. 140 2 Q. Okay. And your answer? 3 A. And my answer was yes, it was determined in 4 late 1970. 5 Q. And the lower chlorinated components being 6 those with less than 54 percent chlorine content? 7 A. When initially produced, yes. 8 Q. All right. In any of the documents we have 9 seen today, is there any reference to chlorinated 10 components of less than -- with a content of less than 11 54 percent, other than in Exhibits 1 and 4? 12 MR. CASSIS: I'm going to object only to 13 the extent that if it is so reflected in the other 14 documents or the other exhibits about which he's 15 testified, then I don't want to be restricted, nor his 16 answer be restricted to that because to ask him to go 17 through every one of those documents now and to find 18 that I think is a little unfair to the witness. 19 A. Exhibits 1 and 4 refer to the state of the 20 knowledge as of early 197 0. The conclusion that the 21 lower chlorinated mixtures of PCBs might be contributing 22 also to this higher chlorinated presence wasn't reached 23 until almost a year later. So it is not reflected in 24 any of these documents we have looked at today. 25 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) And the last word on the WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000070451 141 1 lower chlorinated components is reflected in Exhibits 1 2 and 4 ? 3 MR. DAVIDSON: I'll object to that. 4 MR. CASSIS: As of that time. 5 A. It's not the last word. 6 Q. (By Mr. Goebel) The last word communicated 7 to Rockwell about lower chlorinated components is 8 reflected in Exhibits 1 and 4? 9 MR. CASSIS: Objection. 10 MR. DAVIDSON: You're limiting him to the 11 exhibits he's seen today? 12 MR. GOEBEL: He said he doesn't know of any 13 others. 14 MR. DAVIDSON: But that's the limit of your 15 question. 16 MR. GOEBEL: Wellr if there are others, 17 we'd like to see them. 18 MR. DAVIDSON: You've never asked for them. 19 A. As far as the documents we have looked at 20 today, the answer to your question is yes. I don't know 21 of any other documents at this point in time that would 22 address the subject of the lower chlorinated types of 23 PCBs. 24 MR. GOEBEL: All right. You've agreed to 25 provide us with the documents that someone in your WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 142 1 office reviewed to prepare that list of types of 2 Pydrauls used and the dates shipped from Monsanto; is 3 that right? 4 MR. DAVIDSON: Well, first of all, it 5 wasn't prepared in my office. It was prepared by the 6 Monsanto law department, and it is a summary of existing 7 sales records to the Russellville facility. And, yes, 8 we'11 be happy to produce those for you. 9 MR. CASSIS: Do you want to put the 10 stipulation on the record now or do you want to do 11 that -- We have agreed to a stipulation to -- 12 MR. GOEBEL: -- which we'11 do in writing. 13 MR. CASSIS: That's it. 14 THE REPORTER: Signature? 15 MR. DAVIDSON: Read. 16 17 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 18 Subscribed and sworn to before me thisday 19 of, 1993. 20 My Commission expires:. 21 22 [Notary Public] 23 24 25 AAC Commercial Union vs. Rockwell International, et al. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD000007 142 1 office reviewed to prepare that list of types of 2 Pydrauls used and the dates shipped from Monsanto; is 3 that right? 4 MR. DAVIDSON: Well, first of all, it 5 wasn't prepared in my office. It was prepared by the 6 Monsanto law department, and it is a summary of existing 7 sales records to the Russellville facility. And, yes, 8 we'11 be happy to produce those for you. 9 MR. CASSIS: Do you want to put the 10 stipulation on the record now or do you want to do 11 that -- We have agreed to a stipulation to -- 12 MR. GOEBEL: -- which we'll do in writing. 13 MR. CASSIS: That's it. 14 THE REPORTER: Signature? 15 MR. DAVIDSON: Read. 16 17 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE scribed and sworn to before me this^e^^^ day 18 19 of . 1993. 20 My Commission expires: NOTARY PPUUBBUUCC SSTTAATTEE tOvF MMIKSSsOnLaWt ST. LOUIS COUNTY nrcomssKMExp. m is,,iws it/. (Ajoci^ 21 ORIGINAL22 Notary Public] 23 24 25 AAC Commercial Union vs. Rockwell International, et ' WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER_PCB-SD0000070454 STATE OF MISSOURI COUNTY OF ST. LOUIS ) ) ) I, ALICIA A. CARTER, a Registered Professional Reporter and a duly commissioned Notary Public within and for the State of Missouri, do hereby certify that pursuant to Notice there came before me at the law office of Husch & Eppenberger, 100 North Broadway, Suite 1300, St. Louis, Missouri 63102, WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, who was, by me first duly sworn to testify to the truth and nothing but the truth of all knowledge touching and concerning the matters in this cause; that the witness was thereupon examined under oath and said examination was reduced to writing by me; and to be read and signed by the witness; and that this deposition is a true and correct record of the testimony given by the witness. I further certify that I am neither counsel for nor related nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this deposition is taken; further that I am not a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties hereto financially interested in this action. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and affixed my seal May 18, 1993. ALICIA A. CARTER Notary Public, within and for the State of Missouri WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000070455 PAGE ( OF / W ill/asr) B. NAME OF WITNESS DEPOSITION CORRECTIION SHRRT Page 11 Line * Should read: -- b wh dhe. Reason for change: ~I <s> c c e rec f ccJ<9 I'd. Page 20 Line S' Should read: -- - - t/ t Reason for change: C lari 'Pi'ca h6>n Page Line V Should read: 14- did. Reason for change? C. ($ri' X' e<r? A 8 *? t>1 men f WQ5 Me. Stf re. t in 1^4 it. 41 Page Line Should read: "7 2, / 6" f>d !^ ch /<? rirfci led bip ben ($ -- _- - Reason for change: < 3j>e //"? Page Line Should read: / 21 3 - -- V $4 ct vid Reason for change: ~&n correct tUOfd bis - - - Page Line V Should read: - - -5pecUf onii Reason for changes C la r i (~i cQ b on ~bhe Page Line Should read: Reason for change: SIGNATURE OF WITNESS WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000070456