Document ByL2GmZe2VgkpZ4pD293MZaVX

torch 16, 1964 William Weingarten, M.D. Nassau Smelting and Refining Company, Incorporated Staten Island 7y New York Dear Doctor Weingarten: I have not the time to put together the salient points in my discussion with your people, and I shall not attempt to do so until I receive the secretarial draft of ray remarks. However, there were two matters which, as I realized after the fact, were not dealt with in such a manner as to get things moving. I think it wise therefore to give you my views for such action as you and the management may wish to take. There is, first, the question of the extent of the hazard which exists in the stripping area. I accept the apparent fact, that my brief Observations in this area failed to reveal the essential facts. This being the case, we need to know what the facts are, not only in stripping lead covered cable but also the plastic coated product. There is some question as to how this can best be done (whether by study of the air or of the men) but in the long run this will have to be attacked by both methods and therefore, I suggest that it is desirable to have a more satisfactory sampling and analytical survey of this area than has yet been done, This might be done by the State people, but I suspect that they will not have (or take) the time required to do the job as it should be done. Our group here is not looking for a heavier schedule that it now has before it, but we could send the people and equips ment to do a survey of such scope as inay be required (as agreed upon before hand). Frankly, I would prefer to judge the situation on the results obtained by our own people, but this is not strictly essential if there is a more convenient and less costly way of doing it. Second, is the extension of the analytical observations on your people in different'categories of employment. When the present group of con templated analyses have been completed and reported, we shall have more information than we now have, but I doubt that we shall have enough. More over, we do not have the detailed information about the individuals involved to make as much oit of the analytical data as we should. The results which were reported by the State people, appear to me to be trustworthy, and these too should be made available to me, along with detailed information as to the histories of employment of the individuals. With all of this at hand we could determine what additional data would bte useful. With respect to the information on individuals the following items would be very useful in interpreting the analytical data: (1) Hie total history of employment ao far as it is available; William Weingarten, M.D. - (2) - March 16, 1964 (2) The specific job in which the employee is now engaged and the length of time represented in the present employment. Special attention should be given to the factors that influence the severity and the temporal aspects of the employment, such as to the rotation (planned or incidental) from one job to another and the length of the periods of exposure of specific types, and the duration (if any) of the time off work or out of exposure to lead. It is recognized that the task of assembling this information may be troublesome and time-consuming, and that the records may be such as to render this a somewhat futile effort. The important thing is to get out such facts as are correct and to avoid guesswork. It is better to have no information than to have it inexact. Therefore, it may well be that only the recent information is reliable, and even that to only a limited extent It should be possible, in any case, to find out how long the individuals have been engaged in their present job, and what they did prior to that time. If one can be reasonably certain of the facts for the past two or three years, these would be very valuable in appraising the total hazard associated with a specific type of work at a specific site or within a specific area. I'd like to be sure that the information now available is used as effectively as possible, after which we can determine what further information should be obtained. Except in gross matters, we cannot know what to do, until we knowa where the problems lie and how they arise. Let me repeat that it was a source of satisfaction to me to have the opportunity to sit down with a group of people who were determined to find out what is necessary^so as to get at it and do it. It was also a very pleasant day from the aspect of personal associations, as well as from that of observing an interesting series of operations, I always find it interesting, and it is often exciting, to observe the ingenuity of people in organizing, equipping and operating manufacturing plants, and there is something about the comparative anatomy and functioning of industry that is very fascinating. Cordially yours, RAK:vr Robert A. Kehoe, M.D. " 0018731 March'll, 1964- Dr. Kehoe - This enables me to see that there are two things that are needed in this plant. One - rather good medical and two - you would probably need in a plant of this sort and activities, and you would be well advised to obtain the - services of an Industrial Hygiene Engineer to follow through and do analysis, t " proper sampling of this to be done periodically. These people, as you know, are not easily obtained. There is a -limit of trained people in this field. Xou would be well advised to do this. To achieve as well as you can the pur poses you wish to achieve. This will cost money, but will save money in the long run. This is to the best interest of a plant that has reel hazards in it. I as not guessing about thisI have the results of tberliituation that r causes lead /iSxiiGsis_r-c This will cause trouble with the Union. I am sure of this. From the point of view of achieving the necessary amount of control I should state that f need o ^personal hygeine. This has to do with J. the business of men s w a l l o w i n g ^ h a s to do>Tapjerssoo:nal cleanlines^ the encouragement of men to achieve such cleanlliness w^ith good sound facilities, U-cIsdJ k*)$ezt<4>-r such as shower battihiss, eto&. The reasoonnss^'mee:n^may not want io UBei-ehese^faciliti^e , aeeo water-eoid>~~sh{wreT not attiao tlve. " Always eating and d r l n k i n g i n e piace that is clean, where there is no danger of lead in the area. lou cannot achieve unlessftfaeilities are good. This applies also to such things as making and * drinking coffee in little corners right^in the midda-e of dirt and dust in the 4. ?; place. I did not see this here. Jfmirjob in this field by nature is dirty, and therefore, precautionary action and discipline must be taken to achieve our purpose. ' I do not know what you do in this area. It should be well known that there is to be no drinking or eating, "to 'these lead areas. - ' ' 'y' > ^Another problem is the contamination of air, one area in this plant, which is a dangerous one is the Dross House. The dross is not being well handled. >.v-';j I 0018732 r:-l - ...... 7 ' N19730.01 think, at the time, this dross is removed from the kettles it should be put in con-' tainers to take it away. It should be handled in such a way that men do not have to - handle it. This is an Engineering problem, which can be handled with some opinions from ' other places. 'J' . ' V . ; / V.-. ~ - - Looking at the floor here there is no question in my mind that this is being scattered all over the place, while cleaning it with a broom you only increase the ; problem. Here again the handling of this is causing the problem. I understand it Sf is hard to keep these floors clean, but it ean~he done with the right kind of floor. A smooth or reasonably smooth floor, without the opportunity for accumulation in an area in which ^trucks are removing loads and picking it up on the wheels. It is a simple business of contaminating the air. Dirt where it is not necessary. JThe housekeeping is terrible. It is true it cannot always be completely clean, but the Mm^ dirt here, can be cleaned up and can be kept so that you are *continually redistri ' buting dirt on the floor. This takes some ingenuity. If you can have the kind of -ci*CS floor that can be kept clean, but not by sweeping it up. Vacuum equipment is good, \ but not practical throughout plant, from a financial view. Would be practical in the tested areas, especially where the vehicles are used. This way you would know just '-.'ig- how much this contributes to the atmosphere contamination in the building. I know . this is not impractical and might conceivably make the difference in keeping it safe or over the edge. Do what is necessary and economical now, go to a more expensive .l1 ,,- '' way later, if necessary. Good housekeeping means a lot, it can be done. I do not g S l l know how much gets into the atmosphere this way, I would be interested in knowing. JT would be willing to stake my reputation that there is more dust then necessary^ The dross that is wept up and handled carelessly. I don't mean to say the people are intentionally careless. It is not being made essential or easy to handle in such a way as not to contaminate the area with this dust. I do not know how much this is feeing contaminated by this other business. HE 0018733 *"i'Zm ' I think this is all I need say, if it were ay job to get this to a safe * situation, what I would do is clean it up, provide facilities to keep good house keeping and see where I am. Then go further^ I would not let down on the super visors - aake this a completely safe installation^ I doubt if there is an engineer*I in this organisation that could tell you how to make this a safe operation. I a not sure he would not be spending sore coney then necessary. Hr. Frasca - Does the steel work over the top cause such of this. I have been ^ trying-to get this cleaned up. . . Dr, Rushaore - Doesn' t contribute very much. Dr. Kehoe - Just Beans that it is in the air, contaminating the atmosphere. - I am not talking about this sake shift business, it Bight be essential and better if they wear masks. Jt Just don* t think that the continuous wearing of Banks in the regular Jobs by regularly assigned workers will work. Placing sufficient discipline and wearing the proper equipment has a lot to do with it. My view of the situation is masks should be used for those jobs which cose periodically such as relining 'a furnaces, etc. i.e. our Manufacturing Plant - not same kind of job as here - there plants are clean enough to eat off floor. Although from time to time there is an immediate danger, so they use masks for this period. No man would go into this kind o f situation that is dangerous without this kind of protection. Men that are aware of the problem and are educated, want this protection. This can be achieved by making known the fact that you can get enough of this lead to kill you. Ve do not have a situation that will go out and bite you. Dr. Weingartea - Slotting* Dr. Kehoe * In time with the achievement of the desired results with respect to the - equipment you can also instruct your people so that they understand what they are doing. - Also works out better for men. People usually understand what it is all '- ''V* * about. Must be some kind of confidence between man and medical advisor to get this to work. It does work. , This doesn't mean there will not be fall back. I am^not asking for the impossible. It will produce a situation like a team to do the best v. .... *. ,. \- ' ' > it can. I do not know what the negotiation situation is. This is another point . ' the specialization of a man to perform properly all there work. Proper observance of safety is something that can be better achieved by foreman, because he is there. - This finishes my story in brief. ` ^- As I watched these fellows working, with the cable, I was not much V ' "* '> j ; impressed by the exposure there. There is of course more then appears on the surface. " > . . Dr. Welngarten - All cases came from the stripper area. .. Dr. Kehoe - I take it back. All came from strippers? Dr. Welngarten - These fellows were working at stripper machines. This is one of these area where I was at fault. (Conversation here about the rotation of men from the lead stripper to the alpeth stripper, which are very close by.. Dr. Welngarten didn' t think they should be rotated so close by. ) . * .. ' j -r -"s:;.-; Mr. Frasca - Would th old or new cable be more to blame? Dr. Kehoe - Not much difference it all looks alike after awhile. .You can see this, it gets in the air. " . - r -- -,2r Mr. Ruzlc - There is oral intake. Mr, Warden - Would they need an Industrial Hygeine Engineer for two or three years or .permanently? , . J|f .. ; ---- ^.ehoe - It is my experience that when you get a good one, you do not let loose * of him. If you do get your problem solved you do not have to keep him on the job. , ` My guess would be if you got a competent one you would find things for him to do. Kg' 0018735 - V_ . , ... ' Dr. Wtejlng&rien - -Would he be on a full time basis? Dr, Kehoe - Yes - he would need a laboratory with certain facilities, analytical y facilities In this connection he could use it for'analytical servi ces, examination of blood at Intervals, and this could all be a function of your Industrial Hygeine laboratory if you hare a capable man to do this job. This does require a special laboratory. This could be done in this establishment. With this kind of job, dealing with micro-grams you got to have a situation absolutely free of dust. In our own laboratory In Cincinnati where we do blood work, it is completely air conditioned. This can be done inside an industrial plant, but only when well designed. We have the specification for such. Since this is an expensive procedure if it can be done by the same man who does your hygeine now, within reasonably economical limits. Use our own architect with our own monies. To try to get organization in a position for facilities by our aid, training, etc. Mr. HcCrea - We set up a procedure at Nassau where we have man on lead strippers 30 days, wears special equipment, we pay him extra for this. Move him to alpeth strippers, no coveralls or respirator, rotates 30 more days - back to lead. Is this a cure all. I cannot justify this. * Dr. Kehoe - Impossible to justify this. I would not say that I am sure, but if I am not sure someone has to prove it to me. Dr. Rushmore - It would be interesting to see who was at the end of their 30 days on the lead. , " r - \y-y-. : Dr. Kehoe - Interesting to see but costly. Much too expensive, but interesting. Dr. Weingarten - Rotation is not being kept up. Dr. Kehoe - With reference to rotation when you know what your doing rotation is a pretty good procedure. Rotation should not be from a place of high lead to a place of low content. : It should be from lead to no lead. You have these areas too. You have a good situation for rotation of workman. So long as the rotation would ppt change tjsm men s pay. Mot from high lead to low lead. . `* .X Mr, We Crca - The problem here at'Nassau, rotation of men fro certain jobs out of the area cannot be done because of rates. Also if we more some men fro one loca- ' tlon to another he loses his labor grade eenlority. From a limited observation I .X ; -..v-V .do .not have the answer. hat you say of stripper building, would, you, feel the same clothing should be worn on the alpeth as the lead strippers. -V . - . v i 'XXiIilK Dr, Kehoe - lea - But where the clothing is not needed it should not be used. Industrial Hygeine Engineer could answer this question, but I cannot answer this. Must be .ftS - analyzed. I would say what you should have is an actual isolation of lead compounds - ' -I '- . __Jf;' for all practical purposes. Areas from which you send people from lead to one place where there is no lead. ?- Dr, Weingarten - How long does it take for an average person to de-lead? Dr. Kehoe- Depends on person, dosage, and length of time on job. Usually twice as long as it takes the person to accumulate the lead. ' ~ Mr. Ruzlc- These rafters in the air should be cleaned. Dr, Kehoe- The significance of this is that there is in the air enough of this to accumulate on the rafters. It is air borne. How much of this is present would have to be shown to Dr. Weingarten. You cannot know what you are doing, I would say in a situation where you are dealing with people. This man can.* t go back -- :: ' -' ' ' ' .... 'X " "' : when the analysis say he can go back. You cannot answer this in one word. This is like the practice of medical examinations. Depends on the conditions under which they, are working. Depends on how long it should be. _ What is the ideal time to check employees? In checking employees I would say the blood is used mostly. Urine should be used in the beginning. Some people have it in urinary excretion. Whereas the blood will deal with the accumulation. The urine shows you what this man did yesterday. Gives mans exposure in this particular area. Blood takes' long period time. -- 'i- rie repid - blood slow, This Is te value of having blood and urine analysis side by side, You : ' - - ^ j-.' . . ' ` *- " ; ' _ _ , , p. - "` really do not ned urine in all cases. Mostly problemcasea it is needed. Routine blood checks are best, both not necessary. We do have to depend on urine for ' ' 1,1 " TM " 1....<riI-- -I ..... --, - ~T-- , .. -' ' . " ' tetral thyl lead. This is slow in showing so the urine would show it first as it takes longer to get into the blood We have to use urine for this. Must have urine to see what blood will show. Box Cars - x -a ' : _ -V1''. .. ' - - ... t a Dr. Kefcoe - This is another surprising case of handling. I seen no gross evidence of dust as a problem of loading and unloading, this is frequently cause though by the men handling the material. . Maintenance people and janitors should be looked at, they are around when machinery is not in use. . Dr. Welngarten - We have little control of box cars as they come already loaded. They should wear respirators at all times. , Dr. Kehoe - Use of air lined masks, or else wet it down, and theye will be no dust. You would have doubts about wetting it down. It would not be practical to wet down. Who looks at masks? . Mr. Ruzlc - Safety department. - Men keeps own mask and checks it. Dr. Kehoe - How does nan know when they have a problem with mask? This is a mistake In a situation where they are used you should see that these masks are clean, fit and are sultable to do the job. No sense using a mask that is not in top shape. Must use face devise, depending on size of plant, and number of people. Certainly there should be a place where these masks are gone over, cleaned, and seen that they are in proper shape. You are always justified in this type of a case to set up disciplinary action to make sure it is done. Of course, make sure masks are used. Only when necessary. Box cars can be controlled, deal with situation as it is. This I feel justifies the use of good masks. lou can, in this situation, use - - a- *- - ; - per supply of air and with masks of Tthis type it is a lot better for the man. There .s less discomfort and it is more convenient. A much better thing. These masks have a t }t/ supply of air idrich is blown through a hose attached to face piece. Would have to be \ - ' adapted to the needs of the business. ' ^ _ v 'V. s-=.'v' - . - . V- " .-r? ' -- r.- -- . . - -., V.'." -- Mr. Frasca - Having Distributing Houses load these cars and material in tubs, is not ' St?** ; ' practical. - ' ,;,:;;v v '- ' . ' Dr. Keboe - If you had a man to study these problems and to adapt these available things -j to these needs. It is our business merely to guide. ' Dr. Dunn - Box cars ~ how do they fit it lead content? mK m Mr. McCrea - Depends on the age of cable and box car. Just where is man being exposed pig Union problem. Dr. Rushmore - Take man from job. ;4ll$SHI . . ' ' v jtaj Dr..Kehoe - This is a Contract problem, must negotiate with Union if possible. 4 i SSIlll## Dr. Rushmore - Usually you can see Union on Medical. , Dr. Kehoe - Make medical information confidential as it is. Doctor must explain this to the group and then to the individual. This is not a question of having lead poisoning causing life or death. But this is something that is in the patients interest. Management problem in a sense but a medical man should do the job. Dr. Rushmore - I think the Union is already aware of this problem. : Mr. McCrea - Union wants results - this is a sticky thing. .. . Dr. Rushmore - This whole thing is a sticky thing, Bob. _, tmmm Dr. Welngarten -- I wanted rotation out of lead area. I was not aware they would do what they did. /;;/, , : Itssl fx/sm Dr. Kehoe - You were not aware of what you were doing. ^ X 0018739 -Jbfe? -9 Dr. Weingarten -- I wanted them completely out of lead area. Rotation in the lead area is no good. ; . . Dr, Kehoe -- Medical information should be given out only on a Doctor's level. - " _ -: This is confidential information. There is no reason why the Doctor should deal ,j , with this in any way other than a private physician. ; ' Dr Rushmore - The Union cannot demand to see a medical record. > Dr. Weingarten - Choose a physician who will represent then. Get release froa the people* - '. Maybe helpful in double checking. . Dr. Pushaore -- No good no Doctor can question Dr. Kehoe*s findings. Dr. Veingarten - This is only trying to show the Union, so they do not feel that i. , examines I am protecting the Management. If another doctor mxptaiKi Dr. Kehoe*s recommendations ` I think he will be able to discuss it with the Union and they will take his word for ' ' it. Must have a written release from persons talking about. ^1' ' Dr. Rushmore - Question of having the Union pick a Doctor. The Union should begiven a choice from a list of Doctors, but by no means should it be able to pick out adoctor on there own. Dr. Kehoe - It should be explained to t}ie man that there are certain lines of safety, - based on standards in industrial hygeine. You are in no position to say anything " except that you are approaching a situation that we consider dangerous. Ve will . . not let this happen if we can deal with it otherwise. There are just danger signs. ." " --v -- -i.; ;; - - i f 7 - - - , ..- Dr. Dunn - Union has right to questions. vJ 'jpeZ ^| Mr. McCrea - We are dealing with non-technical and non-educated people in the Union. You cannot answer these questions without putting your cards on the table. Dr. Rushmore - Use results of air tests, not medical Information. We need more testing samples as some are misleading. >5-- v-v, 1 Dr Kehoe - If you want to see what this is over a period of time you need more samples. If you can do this in your own household. Outside agencies cannot give you more than a limited amount of time and the analysis is incomplete, and this k 10 *- Mr. McCrea - ' Union is asking cuestions. Must answer someone and I 'must be prepared. r-^1^ ^rr-- r -L I-- - r - `V r pjr* ^ **w , ^ ^ 'V '' ^^ V ^ " r; *'cu'W ' C j%-* ^ *- ^ V-^t If It is possible to reason end get coopra 11on of Union I must be prepared to let out'' w> - , -- *'- ,, *1' -- lli ^ 3 21"3* - \ H `V','A `"`t V % ,.?r and expose to them any Information I am sitting on. Ivhave never been in a situation ^ `C* ^ * ' J* ' - ' c- " ^2gS$?V * ^ . where I could give this type of information ont to a Union. 4 -,# % `V- ~ ' . Dr. Rnshaore - Use Dr. Weingarten's or any doctor's opinion. '. n -: T : " ~ -- .; ..,. .: -- ;r- -- J+v - , * * * * %s r ' '-.'.-I'l; ` Mr. McCrea - They won't accept this and we must be prepared to pay the price. :: . .. ... "_ ,v > _ ..'... - - Sr * r-,.* < '. - fri.-r'. ." - - ._- - ^ ........ " "' -- ------- --- Dr. Rushmore - Then pay the price. ., Dr. Kehoe - This is a problem, of this I have no doubt. Negotiations are sometimes . - v- -.I.-. '= - -.tr5. :-rr. " '`,,J easy and other;times not so easy. I am not minimizing this. I.do think that in this5 situation there has generally been built up, a feeling, with respect to the insolv ability of the problem. In this case your first step is to make quite clear to these people you are going about a solution to this problem in the proper manner. You are doing this on the best advice you can get. Ask them to cooperate. I think there should be an understanding in the industrial family that an effort is being made to get a solution to this problem. If they accept this, your* 11 soon get both ?? cooperation and a solution. You have won a good part of the battle. I don't know. ; You would probably have to precede on the basis of what you can do at this time. This Is one way of approaching this thing from a point of view of a shot gun position. This cannot be solved tomorrow, but eventually it will be.` If you had an Industrial -"''1 ' ....... .v - , V w'mm Hygeine Engineer you could work easily and economically towards a solution. - . Another aspect of this is - I know that in some parts of the U. S. if a doctor *i'm says take a man off the job for health reasons, you'd better do it. Must take the , , advice of a man who is in. a position to give the advice. You do not sell your doctor. down the river. This doctor or any doctor worth his salt will tell you what is good - sS for employees and he cannot neglect the welfare of the employees just because he is ,*jpliii hired by you* Somehow or other we have to get over the hurdle. The doctor must stand,, - 1 bdiind in the exercise of his judgement. :He tells you what must be done to safe - -. ,, , ^yww-* guard the employees. " . h M m >r -;i JpJ. ; f 1 1 1 r- - ^ Dr. 'Rushmore - No matter what the Union thinks of the Doctor they will always respect- his opinion in this area. Maybe not 100^, but they"will respect it. - Mr. McCrea - Even after Doctor Weingarten spoke to these people, we supported him and we will continue to support him. The Union went to these people and told than . ?. to see what their own doctors had to say. Slip came back from one Doctor - ^ LEAD POISONING? -From a local standpoint we are out on a limb. - - ,Vf; . Dr. Kehoe - The doctors have a reputation of serving the Company, not the employees.- We must live this down. We must beat this, but it will not be in our life time. ' I am suppose to be an expert, but don't think this does not happen to me as well as anyone else. ' ,' ' '',,bi-fi; ' v ; Dr. Weingarten - I invite this. When their own Doctor tells' them I was right, after avdiile they will realize this is the truth. I would rather be checked on to see if I _ am right. Three people have done this already.( Dr.. Kehoe - Qaployees trust you I think. This is not proof of anything. I trust people who inquire and want the truth. Most people do not want the truth. (Dr. v Kehoe made this statement to Mr. McCrea). *- Cb ^ Kg 0018742