Document By7nJ5mGnzkYDgMGgwe2EnjMm

Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 1 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 2 FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ALABAMA 3 EASTERN DIVISION 4 5 6 SOLUTIA, INC., AND PHARMACIA CORP., 7 8 Plaintiffs, 9 10 vs. No. CV-03-PWG-1345-E 11 12 McWANE, INC., ET AL. , 13 14 Defendants. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION of ROBERT KALEY, Ph.D. 22 Taken on December 8th, 2009 23 24 25 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046417 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 2 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 2 FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ALABAMA 3 EASTERN DIVISION 4 5 6 SOLUTIA, INC., AND PHARMACIA CORP., 7 8 Plaintiffs, 9 10 vs. No. CV-03-PWG-1345-E 11 12 McWANE, INC., ET AL. , 13 14 Defendants. 15 16 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF ROBERT 17 KALEY, Ph.D., taken on behalf of the Defendant 18 Phelps Dodge Industries, Inc., at the offices of 19 Husch Blackwell Sanders, LLP, 190 Carondelet Plaza, 20 Suite 600, St. Louis, Missouri, on the 8th day of 21 December, 2009, before Pamela Watson Harrison, CBC, 22 CRR, RPR, MO CCR #557, IL CSR #084-003684, and 23 Notary Public. 24 25 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046418 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: 2 3 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: 4 CHARLES E. MERRILL, ESQ. 5 Husch Blackwell Sanders, LLP 6 190 Carondelet Plaza, Suite 600 7 St. Louis, MO 63105 8 314/480-1500 9 Charles.merrill@huschblackwell.com 10 11 FOR THE DEFENDANT PHELPS DODGE INDUSTRIES, INC.: 12 ROBERT M. SCHICK, ESQ. 13 BENJAMIN S. LIPPARD, ESQ. 14 Vinson & Elkins 15 1001 Fannin Street, Suite 2300 16 Houston, TX 77002-6760 17 713/758-4582 18 rschick@velaw.com 19 blippard@velaw.com 20 21 22 23 24 25 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 3 WATER PCB-SD0000046419 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 1 APPEARANCES (continued): 2 3 FOR THE DEFENDANT MEADWESTVACO CORPORATION: 4 WENDLENE M. LAVEY, ESQ. 5 Squire, Sanders & Dempsey, L.L.P. 6 127 Public Square, Suite 4900 7 Cleveland, OH 44114-1304 8 216/479-8500 9 wlavey@ssd.com 10 11 FOR THE DEFENDANT SOUTHERN TOOL: 12 ALLISON E. McADAM, ESQ. 13 (Via telephone) 14 Hunsucker Goodstein & Nelson, PC 15 3717 Mt. Diablo Blvd., Suite 200 16 Lafayette, CA 94549 17 925/284-0840 18 19 FOR THE DEFENDANT SCIENTIFIC ATLANTA: 20 LYNETTE FADDY SMITH, ESQ. 21 (Via telephone) 22 Troutman Sanders, LLP 23 600 Peachtree Street, N.E., Suite 5200 24 Atlanta, GA 30308-2216 25 404/885-3489 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 4 WATER PCB-SD0000046420 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 1 APPEARANCES (continued): 2 3 FOR THE DEFENDANT HURON VALLEY STEEL 4 JOHN SCOTT, ESQ. 5 (Via telephone) 6 Scott, Dukes & Geisler 7 2100 Third Avenue North, Suite 700 8 Birmingham, AL 35203 9 205/251-2300 10 11 FOR THE DEFENDANTS McWANE, BAE SYSTEMS LAND AND 12 ARMAMENTS, LP, AND FMC CORPORATION: 13 BRYAN NICHOLS, ESQ. 14 (Via telephone) 15 Maynard, Cooper & Gale, PC 16 1901 Sixth Avenue North, Suite 2400 17 Birmingham, AL 35202 18 205/254-1000 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 5 WATER PCB-SD0000046421 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 1 APPEARANCES (continued): 2 3 FOR THE DEFENDANT U.S. PIPE & FOUNDRY: 4 JULIE LEMMER, ESQ. 5 (Via telephone) 6 Alston & Bird, LLP 7 1201 West Peachtree Street 8 Atlanta, GA 30309 9 404/881-7000 10 11 12 FOR THE DEFENDANT DII INDUSTRIES, L.L.C.: 13 MICHAEL HEISTER, ESQ. 14 (Via telephone) 15 Baker Botts 16 1299 Pennsylvania Avenue NW 17 Washington, D.C. 20004 18 202/639-1140 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 6 WATER PCB-SD0000046422 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 1 APPEARANCES (continued): 2 3 ALSO PRESENT: 4 JOHN GORE, CERTIFIED LEGAL VIDEO SPECIALIST 5 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company 6 515 Olive Street, Suite 700 7 St. Louis, MO 63101 8 314/241-6750 9 10 PAMELA L. HARRISON, CBC, CRR, RPR, CSR, CCR 11 Gore Perry Reporting & Video Company 12 515 Olive Street, Suite 700 13 St. Louis, MO 63101 14 314/241-6750 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 7 WATER PCB-SD0000046423 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 1 INDEX 2 3 4 Questions By Mr. Schick 5 Questions By Mr. Merrill 6 7 8 EXHIBITS 9 10 11 Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 1 12 Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 2 13 Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 3 14 Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 4 15 Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 5 16 Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 6 17 Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 7 18 Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 8 19 Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 9 20 Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 10 21 Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 11 22 Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 12 23 Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 13 24 Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 14 25 Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 15 PAGE 12 161 PAGE 13 84 98 102 107 116 118 122 127 129 132 133 138 141 143 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 8 WATER PCB-SD0000046424 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 1 EXHIBITS (continued) 2 3 Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 16 4 Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 17 5 Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 18 6 Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 19 7 Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 20 8 Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 21 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 144 148 149 151 154 156 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 9 WATER PCB-SD0000046425 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 10 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're on the record at 2 9:15 a.m. The date is December 8th of the year 3 2009. We're at the offices of Husch Blackwell 4 Sanders. The address is 190 Carondelet in 5 St. Louis, Missouri. 6 This begins videotape No. 1 in the 7 deposition of Dr. Robert G. Kaley in the matter of 8 Solucia, Incorporated, and Pharmacia Corporation 9 versus McWane, Incorporated, et al., currently 10 pending in the United States District Court for the 11 Northern District of Alabama, Eastern Division, case 12 No. CV-03-PWG-1345-E. 13 At this time, could I ask counsel to 14 identify themselves for the record, please? 15 MR. MERRILL: Yeah. I'm Charlie Merrill 16 representing the plaintiffs, Solucia and Pharmacia. 17 MR. SCHICK: Bob Schick on behalf of Phelps 18 Dodge with Vinson & Elkins. 19 MR. LIPPARD: Ben Lippard also with Vinson & 20 Elkins on behalf of Phelps Dodge. 21 MS. LAVEY: Wendy Lavey with Squire, Sanders 22 & Dempsey on behalf of Defendant MeadWestvaco 23 Corporation. 24 MR. SCHICK: And on the phone? 25 MS. LEMMER: This is Julie Lemmer with 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046426 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 11 1 Alston & Bird on behalf of U.S. Pipe & Foundry. 2 MR. SCOTT: John Scott with Scott, Dukes & 3 Geisler for Huron Valley Steel Corporation. 4 MS. SMITH: Lynette Smith at Troutman 5 Sanders for Scientific Atlanta. 6 MS. McADAM: Allison McAdam at Hunsucker 7 Goodstein & Nelson for Southern Tool. 8 MR. NICHOLS: Brian Nichols from Maynard, 9 Cooper & Gale on behalf of McWane, Inc., BAE Systems 10 Land and Armaments, LP, and FMC Corporation. 11 MR. HEISTER: Michael Heister on behalf of 12 DII Industries. 13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Was that all counsel? 14 Thank you. 15 Would the court reporter please swear the 16 witness? 17 (Witness sworn.) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046427 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 12 1 ROBERT KALEY, Ph.D., 2 3 of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to 4 testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but 5 the truth in the case aforesaid, deposes and says in 6 reply to oral interrogatories propounded as follows, 7 to-wit: 8 EXAMINATION 9 QUESTIONS BY MR. SCHICK: 10 Q Would you state your full name, please, sir? 11 A Yes. It's Robert George Kaley, II. 12 Q Dr. Kaley, my name is Bob Schick. I 13 represent Phelps Dodge in a lawsuit that Solucia has 14 brought against a number of other defendants that's 15 pending in Birmingham, Alabama. 16 You're familiar with that lawsuit, are you 17 not? 18 A Yes. 19 Q In fact, you've given your deposition in 20 that lawsuit in the past? 21 A Yes. 22 Q You know that in today's deposition you are 23 being presented on behalf of the company as what's 24 referred to under the federal rules as a 30 (b)6 25 witness; do you understand that? 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046428 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 13 1 A Yes, I do. 2 Q And do you know that what that means is that 3 you're speaking on behalf of the company -- that is, 4 Solucia -- in connection with the testimony you're 5 giving here today? 6 A Yes, I understand. 7 Q Okay. Fair enough. What I'd like to do 8 just so that we know the parameters of what you're 9 being offered for here today is show you what's been 10 marked as Deposition Exhibit No. 1 to your 11 deposition. 12 Do you have that in front of you? 13 A Yes, I do. 14 Q And in particular on page 7, this is a 15 letter from your counsel, Mr. Merrill, and it 16 outlines the topics on which you intend to give 17 testimony today. 18 Is that your understanding? 19 A Yes, it is. 20 Q Am I correct in understanding, then, that 21 you will give your testimony today with respect to 22 whatever knowledge you have about the mobility or 23 motility of PCBs in the environment, volatilization 24 of PCBs contained in soil, sediments, and surface 25 waters, weathering of PCBs, dechlorination of PCBs, 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046429 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 14 1 and adsorption of PCBs in particles in air or water? 2 A Yes, I understand. 3 Q All right. There is a note that your 4 counsel provided underneath No. 12 saying that 5 testimony on this topic and its subparts will not 6 cover facts known or opinions held by experts other 7 than you, Dr. Kaley, who may testify. 8 And my question to you is: Have you spoken 9 with any experts who have been retained on behalf of 10 Solucia with respect to these topics? 11 I'm not asking -12 A Yeah, I understand. I'm trying -- I'm 13 looking at the topics to see. To some extent, yes. 14 Q And without telling me what you discussed. 15 can you tell me which experts you talked with? 16 A Dr. Menzie. 17 Q Other than Dr. Menzie? 18 A With respect to these topics, I don't 19 believe so, no. 20 Q Okay. Fair enough. You can take that down. 21 Thank you. 22 Am I correct in understanding that you are 23 now employed by the Husch Blackwell Sanders law 24 firm? 25 A No. 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046430 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 15 1 Q Okay. I was under the impression that in 2 2005 you actually became a technical advisor to the 3 law firm. 4 Is that not correct? 5 A No. I'm an independent consultant. 6 Q Okay. And you charge on an independent 7 basis for the time that you put in on a particular 8 matter? 9 A Yes . 10 Q Can you give me an approximation as to -11 A Well, that's not correct. I'm on retainer 12 through the Husch law firm to Pharmacia in support 13 of whatever they need on -- on various issues. So 14 don't charge by the hour for particular 15 activities. I'm on retainer. 16 Q And are you still on retainer at the $13,500 17 a month? 18 A No. It's actually 15,000 now. H 1 1 H 19 Q And does your paycheck come from the Husch 20 Blackwell firm or from Solucia? 21 A It's drawn on Husch Blackwell. 22 Q Okay. Fair enough. 23 Dr. Kaley, what is a PCB? 24 A Well, a PCB is -- PCB isn't an A. It's a -25 it's a term that encompasses 209 materials known as 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046431 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 16 1 chlorinated -- polychlorinated biphenyls. 2 Q What is an Aroclor? 3 A Aroclor is a Monsanto tradename for a line 4 of polychlorinated polyphenols that were 5 manufactured by the company. 6 Q And they were manufactured by the company 7 during what period of time? 8 A From 1935 through 1977. 9 Q You're familiar with the various Aroclors 10 that were manufactured by Monsanto, Solucia's 11 predecessor, in Anniston, Alabama? 12 A Yes, I am. 13 Q And are you familiar generally with the 14 producti on of Aroclors in Anniston over that period 15 of time? 16 A Yes, I am. 17 Q For example, are you familiar with the 18 fact -- and we can look at documents later -- that 19 approximately 59 percent of the production was of 20 Aroclor 1242, for example? 21 A I don't know the percentages offhand. 22 Q Okay. Fair enough. We'll take a look at 23 that later. 24 What is a homologue, as that term is used in 25 connection with PCB? 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046432 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 17 1 A A homologue is a term that has been used to 2 describe -- well, let me -- let me step back and say 3 that PCBs can have either 1 up to 10 chlorines on 4 the biphenyl molecule, and a homologue is a way of 5 describing the polychlorinated biphenyls as to the 6 number of chlorines on the monologue -- on the 7 molecule. So there are 10 homologues of PCBs. 8 Q And the 10th is referred to as 9 decachlorobiphenyl? 10 A That's correct. 11 Q Okay. What is a congener, as that term is 12 used in connection with PCBs? 13 A As I mentioned, there are 209 individual 14 chemical compounds that fall under the rubric of 15 PCBs, and a congener is any single one of those 16 compounds. 17 Q And is a congener based on its location on 18 one or the other of the biphenyl rings? 19 A Well, I mean, the congener -- each congener 20 is defined basically by the number of chlorines and 21 the position of the chlorines on that ring. 22 Q Then what's the difference between a 23 congener and a homologue? 24 A Well, a homologue is just the number of 25 chlorines. So, for example, if we think about a 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046433 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 18 1 material with three chlorines on the ring, the 2 trichloral homologue, there are actually 24 3 individual compounds, individual congeners, that 4 have three chlorines on the ring; but they are in 5 different positions. 6 Q Fair enough. And let me ask you this: 7 What's the basis of your knowledge about these 8 things that we've been talking about, congeners and 9 homologues and polychlorinated biphenyls? 10 A Well, I'm trained as an analytical chemist, 11 and I was in the laboratory for a dozen years. And 12 after that I've maintained a reading knowledge and 13 literature knowledge of PCBs in general. 14 Q And did you actually work with PCBs in the 15 laboratory? 16 A Yes, I did. 17 Q Was that a part of your employment at 18 Monsanto? 19 A Yes, it was. 20 Q And just to refresh my memory, during what 21 years were you employed by Monsanto? 22 A From 1973 until 1997 when Solucia was spun 23 of f . 24 Q Then you went with Solucia until what year? 25 A 2003. 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046434 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 19 1 Q Okay. In addition to review of literature, 2 your personal experience, and your training in 3 chemistry, have you also learned about congeners, 4 homologues, and PCBs in discussing them with other 5 individuals? 6 A Well, with regard to those particular terms, 7 no. I mean, I've known what those terms have meant 8 since basically the beginning of my career at 9 Monsanto. So, no. 10 Q With respect to the ways in which PCBs act 11 in the environment -- that is, either in air or in 12 water or in sediment -- did you derive any of your 13 knowledge in those areas from anything other than 14 your own personal experience and literature reviews? 15 A Well, attendance at meetings and listening 16 to presentations by other persons. 17 Q Meetings primarily ofMonsanto/Solucia or 18 meetings, for example, of the American Chemical? 19 A Well, that wouldbe an example. The 20 American Chemical Society meetingsare not among 21 those that I've attended, but that's-- that's an 22 example of the kind of meeting -- technical outside 23 meetings. 24 Q Is there an individual with Solucia or - 25 and I mean either an employee or a consultant like 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046435 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 20 1 you are today -- who you believe knows more than you 2 do about the -- the ways in which PCBs act in the 3 environment in air, water or sediment? 4 A That's a trap question. 5 Q Yeah. In a way it is. 6 A I suppose there are certainly persons out 7 there who may know more on specific general 8 technical areas, but I think I have as good an 9 overview of that as anybody I know, I guess. 10 Q Does Dr. Menzie know more than you? And if 11 so, in what area? 12 A He may know more on the details of fate and 13 transport, but I don't -- I don't consider that he 14 knows all that much more than I do. He may know 15 more on a technical basis, but certainly he's very 16 knowledgeable. I'm not questioning his knowledge. 17 He's a very knowledgeable man. 18 Q What is meant by fate and transport? 19 A Well, basically the terms fate and transport 20 describe the behavior of any chemical as it's 21 introduced, primarily into the environment. It 22 doesn't have to be in the environment, but that's 23 generally the way the terms are used. 24 And basically the fate is what happens to 25 that chemical. Does it stay as the chemical as it 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046436 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 21 1 was introduced or does it change somehow? 2 And then the transport is how is that 3 chemical moved about the environment. 4 Q What information does Monsanto or Solucia -5 by the way, can I use those terms interchangeably in 6 this deposition? 7 A Yes. If -- Monsanto is fine. 8 Q Okay. 9 A That's the way I think. 10 Q Okay. Fair enough. What information does 11 Monsanto have that you know of in its possession 12 regarding the behavior of -- of various forms of 13 PCBs in the environment? 14 A I assume there are business documents that 15 might address that particular -- particular aspect, 16 and I assume there are people who have scientific 17 publications on that. I don't know specifically 18 what they have in their possession. 19 Q Are there -- is there scientific literature 20 that's been developed by Monsanto or its people, its 21 employees, that you've relied on in learning about 22 the behavior of PCBs in the environment? 23 A There is some of that. 24 Q Can you identify what literature in 25 particular you rely on? 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046437 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 22 1 A Well, there -- when I joined Monsanto in 2 1973, I joined a company that was -- a company -- a 3 group that was actively involved in measuring some 4 of the environmental properties of PCBs and the 5 behavior of PCBs, the biodegradation of PCBs. So -- 6 and some of that work has been published. 7 So through my interaction with that group 8 and learning what went on before me and 9 participating in the group after I got there, I've 10 certainly learned many of the things that are 11 addressed on these topics. 12 Q What was the name of that group that you 13 joined? 14 A It was a group called applied sciences in 15 the industrial chemical company. 16 Q And that was a part, a department, of 17 Monsanto? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And was that research that was done by that 20 group and the review that that group did of the 21 activities of PCB in the environment -- was that 22 broken down into the behavior of Aroclors and the 23 behavior of homologues? 24 A It was primarily the behavior of Aroclors at 25 that time frame. Really the analytical chemistry to 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046438 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 23 1 analyze congeners and then subsequently homologues 2 had not fully been developed. So it was primarily 3 focused on the behavior of the products. 4 Q When was the technology developed to follow 5 homologues and congeners? 6 A Well, it was beginning to be developed in 7 the 1970s. Really continued to develop through the 8 1980s and really only came into fruition in the 9 1990s. 10 Q And what are the techniques for following 11 congeners and homologues and their activity in the 12 environment that came about really in the 1990s? 13 A The -- there are two techniques that are 14 used in conjunction. One is gas chromatography 15 which is a separation technique, and the other is 16 mass spectometry which is an identification 17 technique. And that -- that combination has really 18 led to the development of the ability to do the 19 analyses as we know it today. 20 Q What are those two scientific techniques 21 able to do with respect to the identification of 22 congeners and homologues? 23 A Well, the first technique, gas 24 chromatography, takes a complexmixture of 25 chemicals, including PCBs, andseparates them on 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046439 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 24 1 a -- basically a class column so that the individual 2 compounds are separated from one another in time as 3 they leave the instrument. And then the mass 4 spectrometer can be used in two ways. It can be 5 used to identify the particular compound as it comes 6 out of gas chromatograph, or in a more sensitive 7 mode, it can be used to measure the amount of that 8 compound as it comes out of the chromatograph. 9 Q And what does that tell you, then, about 10 what you're looking at with respect to either an 11 Aroclor or a homologue? 12 A Well, at that point it doesn't tell you very 13 much about whether you're looking at an Aroclor, 14 but -- or a -- but it tells you basically which 15 individual PCB congener is coming out of the 16 chromatograph at that individual time. So you have 17 a -- you have a specific identification of one of 18 the 209 congeners or a measurement of how much that 19 congener is present in the sample. 20 Q Does it also tell you how much of a 21 particular homologue you have in that sample? 22 A No. That's a subsequent calculation. 23 Basically you just, through the computer, add up all 24 of the totals for individual -- for instance, the 24 25 trichlorobiphenyl congeners, you just select those 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046440 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 25 1 out of your instrument output and add them up to get 2 the homologue number. 3 Q Okay. Fair enough. And how long has that 4 technology been available? You said the '90s. 5 A Well, that's when it really has reached 6 perfection. I mean, the technigues were beginning 7 to be developed in the 1980s and probably even the 8 late 1970s, but it's -- it's a -- it's a moving 9 target; and the technigues and the abilities to 10 measure lower levels and the abilities to separate 11 the congeners more effectively have continued to 12 develop even today. 13 Q And am I correct in understanding the extent 14 to which you've been able to measure congeners then 15 translates into an ability to identify homologues? 16 A Well, you really don't identify homologues. 17 They are basically defined as the particular groups 18 of congeners. So, I mean, to some extent what 19 you're saying is true, but it's -- it's really a 20 homologue is a derivativeconcept from the ability 21 to measure congeners. 22 Q Have you or others at Monsanto to your 23 knowledge performed studies orexperiments with 24 respect to the reliability of these sorts of tests 25 in identifying congeners? 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046441 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 26 1 A Well, we certainly -- during my time in the 2 laboratory, which basically ended about 1985, we - 3 we certainly did those kinds of measurements with 4 techniques that were available at the time and 5 certainly did measure -- you know, had some way of 6 assessing the reliability of those analyses. 7 Q For what purpose would you do those sorts of 8 analyses? 9 A Well, primarily to look at, I guess, in 10 general at that time frame, the presence and 11 identification of the PCBs in environmental samples. 12 Q But why would you want to know what 13 particular congener or what mix ofcongeners was in 14 a particular sample of a PCB? 15 A Well, it's -- it's just -- part of it is 16 just a desire to have as much information as 17 possible. PCBs change when they get into the 18 environment. So an Aroclor 1242 that may have been 19 introduced in the environment 10 or 15 years down 20 the road may or maynot be identifiable asAroclor 21 1242. It changes. 22 So really the information is -- is much more 23 full for a particular analysis if you know the 24 congeners rather than trying to look for a 25 particular Aroclor which may no longer be there in 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046442 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 27 1 that form. 2 Q And by doing the congener analysis, are you 3 able to determine whether that 1242 that you've 4 identified just as sort of the general Aroclor was 5 indeed something different when it was first 6 introduced in the environment? 7 A Well, that -- that question cannot be 8 answered in the general, because it depends on the 9 particular site and what you know about that site 10 and the time frame and a lot of things. So Idon't 11 really think there's a general answer to that 12 question. 13 Q Then why do it? Then why do the gas 14 chromatograph or the - 15 A Well, because each - 16 Q -- mass spectrometer? 17 A I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt. 18 Well, at each particular site, if you have a reason 19 for doing particular analyses, the information you 20 get from congener-specific analysis will provide you 21 a better basis to make judgments about that -- about 22 that particular sample, as to amounts, as to 23 potential sources, as to potential toxicity, for 24 example. There's just so much more information 25 available on a congener-specificanalysis. 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046443 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 28 1 Q So you're still having to make a judgment 2 even after these tests as to, for example, what that 3 Aroclor was when it was first introduced into the 4 environment? 5 A Well - 6 Q It is not scientifically verifiable? 7 A I'm not quite sure how to answer that. I 8 suppose that if -- if in the context of the analyses 9 you know -- that you are doing that you know that it 10 was Aroclor 1242 that was introduced into the 11 environment and you can measure the particular 12 congeners in the sample as it was -- as it was used 13 and introduced and compare it to what you're finding 14 now, you may be able to do that. 15 But just to randomly go out and take a 16 sample and say, Oh, I know that's Aroclor 1242, I 17 don't think that's really possible. 18 Q So if you identify as an Aroclor today in 19 2009, an Aroclor 1242, and you do your congener 20 analysis through a gas chromatograph and mass 21 spectometry, what help does it give you in 22 determining what that Aroclor was when it was first 23 introduced in the environment? 24 A Well, it may not give you any. If that's 25 the question you're asking, then you have to think 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046444 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 29 1 about how you would use that information. Typically 2 that's not the question you're asking. Typically 3 the question you're asking is: What is there as we 4 sit here today? 5 Q Okay. Now, with respect to doing these 6 sorts of tests, the two tests that we've been 7 talking about -- and that's gas chromatograph and 8 mass spectometry - 9 A Uh-huh. 10 Q -- did Solucia, Monsanto, performthose 11 sorts of tests in connection with various reporting 12 that it's done in Anniston to the EPA? 13 A At that time frame, the analyses were done 14 by outside contractors. They were not done by 15 Monsanto or Solucia, per se. 16 Q And when you say at that time, which time 17 frame are you talking about? Is this the early 18 2000s? 19 A Well, beginning in the -- basically the 20 early 1990s actually. 21 Q And were those outside consultants using gas 22 chromatographs or mass spectrometry? 23 A One or other or both, yes. 24 Q Okay. How do you know that? 25 A I, in many cases, spoke with the analysts. 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046445 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 30 1 and I've seen -- in the course of my employment, saw 2 many results from those -- those analyses and had an 3 understanding of how they were done. 4 Q And what did those analyses provide in the 5 way of scientific verifiability as to whether the 6 Aroclors had changed over time or what the source 7 was? 8 A Basically none. 9 Q Okay. Okay. Let's talk a little bit about 10 mobility of PCBs in the environment, okay? 11 A All right. 12 Q What are the mechanisms by which PCBs can 13 move through the environment, Dr. Kaley? 14 A Well, generally I guess we think of -- of 15 the three states of matter as being solid, liquid, 16 and vapor. So with regard to vapor, PCBs can be in 17 a vapor state and move through the environment that 18 way, or they can in kind of a combination of solid 19 and vapor be attached to particles which can move 20 through the environment. 21 With regard to water, PCBs, although they're 22 very sparingly soluble in water, can actually 23 dissolve some PCBs to a -- to a given extent and be 24 carried as mole -- or as molecules dissolve in that 25 water, or again they can be transported by water as 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046446 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 31 1 adsorbed to parallel material. 2 And then with regard to soils or sediments, 3 solids , PCBs adhere very strongly to those kinds of 4 materials. Generally don't move from -- from where 5 they were originally deposited. 6 Q Unless there was material -7 A Unless, unless, by other -- the other two 8 mechanisms we've talked about before. Unless 9 they're moved by wind, as in the air process, or 10 moved by water. 11 Q Okay. And -- and more generally let me ask 12 this : Can PCBs travel via air? 13 A To some extent, yes. 14 Q All right. And we know that PCBs can travel 15 via water bodies? 16 A Via moving water, yes. 17 Q Okay. And PCBs can also travel through 18 sediment migrating downstream in bodies of water? 19 A Yes . 20 Q PCBs also can be transported by storm 21 runoff? And that may be redundant, if we're talking 22 about the movement of water. 23 But if there's storm runoff and that -- that 24 water can pick up PCBs and move the PCBs? 25 A Generally picking up particles that have 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046447 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 32 1 PCBs on it, yes, that's true. 2 Q All right. Unless the PCBs are of the sort 3 that are soluble or can become soluble in water? 4 A Well, I wouldn't say unless. PCBs are 5 very -- you know, to -- in the -- in the general 6 vernacular, PCBs are very, very, very insoluble. So 7 even if certain congeners or certain portions of 8 products do have some slight water solubility, by 9 far the greatest amount is still going to be 10 adhering to particles. So it's not an either/or. 11 It's a -- it's a major -- or the major amount of 12 PCBs are going to be on solids, and some minor 13 amount may be in water or in air. 14 Q Okay. So generally speaking, most movement 15 of PCBs will be through the attachment of those PCBs 16 to particulate matter? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q All right. Now, is that different, that 19 statement, about most move as a function of their 20 attachment to particulate matter, for different 21 Aroclors? That is, is it going to be different for 22 a 1268 versus a 1242? 23 A Well, I'm going to go -- I'm going to go 24 back to the congener argument again. 25 Q Okay. 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046448 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 33 1 A One of the reasons you do congeners is 2 because the actual properties of the individual PCBs 3 depend on the congeners. So that the lower 4 chlorinated congeners typically will have higher 5 water solubility. 6 Now, to the extent that an Aroclor 1242 has 7 more of those lower chlorinated congeners than, for 8 example, an Aroclor 1260, your statement is true. 9 But you really can't talk about Aroclors in that 10 particular manner. You're really talking about the 11 congeners that make up those particular Aroclors. 12 Q Because the Aroclor is a mixture of a number 13 of four, five, six differentcongeners? 14 A More like 50 to 100. 15 Q Okay. And what about with respect to 16 homologues; can you look at homologues to understand 17 a difference in terms of the mechanisms of movement 18 through the environment? 19 A To a certain extent, yes. Because 20 homologues as we've discussed is basically an 21 agglomeration or a combination of the various -- of 22 the various congeners. So in general the congeners 23 of the same level of chlorination have generally the 24 same properties, although not necessarily exactly 25 the same properties. 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046449 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 34 1 So trichloral biphenyls as a whole, the 2 homologue trichloral biphenyls, is in general going 3 to be less soluble than the hexachlorobiphenyls. 4 Q Okay. What about with respect to movement 5 via air; any difference among the homologues? 6 A Yes. Even -- probably even more so, in that 7 the lower chlorinated congeners are typically, you 8 know, more exaggerated in their ability to enter the 9 gas phase than are the higher chlorinated materials. 10 But again, in either case, it's very -- we're 11 talking about very, very, very small amounts 12 entering into the gas phase. 13 Q And when we talk gas phase, we're talking 14 vapor? 15 A Yes, primarily, yes. At this point, yes. 16 Q All right. And so what you're saying is the 17 lower chlorinated congeners will vaporize more 18 easily than the higher chlorinated congeners? 19 A Exactly. 20 Q Have you done any or are you aware of any 21 studies that have been done with respect to the 22 percentage of the lower chlorinated congener that 23 can become vaporized under certain conditions? 24 A Well, I know there are vapor pressure kinds 25 of measurements that I think you can back calculate 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046450 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 35 1 that. As I sit here, I don't -- I can't give you a 2 number. But it's a very, very small number. 3 Q Okay. Now, I think what you've told me is 4 that when PCBs are admitted to the -- are emitted to 5 the atmosphere, it's either going to be in a vapor 6 or particulate phase? 7 A That's correct, yes. 8 Q And am I correct in understanding you that 9 what you're saying is it's more likely to occur in 10 the particulate phase than in a vapor phase? 11 A Well, again, I think that depends on the 12 system you're talking about. I don'tthink there's 13 necessarily a general answer to that. You have to 14 talk about - 15 Q A specific congener? 16 A Well, a specific congener and a specific 17 scenario. 18 Q And what do you mean by scenario? 19 A Well, I mean, are you talking -- if you're 20 doing an air measurement of PCBs, are you -- are you 21 measuring PCBs in the atmosphere over the Arctic, or 22 are you measuring PCBs next to a junkyard where 23 there's soil contaminated with PCBs and you're in a 24 wind storm? I mean, it really depends. There's 25 no -- you know, it depends on the scenario. 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046451 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 36 1 Q Okay. Wind certainly plays a factor in -- 2 in determining the transport of PCBs, whether in the 3 vapor phase or a particulate? 4 A Sure. 5 Q Okay. 6 A I mean, wind defined as movement of air, 7 yes. 8 Q Now, given your understanding of the various 9 properties of the different Aroclors, which Aroclors 10 or their homologues, whichever is most comfortable 11 to you, are more likely to be released in a vapor 12 form? 13 A Well, the Aroclors with the lower 14 chlorinated congeners is their primary constituent. 15 So to the extent if you're looking at the -- at the 16 materials that were commonly manufactured by 17 Monsanto, Aroclor 1221 would be the most likely to 18 be found in the vapor form, and Aroclor 1260 or 19 higher would be the least likely. 20 Q Okay. And that's sort of the continuum, 21 from a 1221 to 1260 or 1260-A? 22 A Right. I'm sure you know that the last two 23 numbers designate the percentage of chlorine in the 24 molecules, and that percentage of chlorines is 25 basically dependent on the number of chlorines on 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046452 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 37 1 the individual PCB molecules. So the higher 2 percentage and the higher numbers in the Aroclor 3 series are going to have the more highly chlorinated 4 compounds. 5 Q Okay. And the more highly chlorinated, the 6 less likely to vaporize? 7 A Correct. 8 Q All right.Now, which Aroclor or their - 9 its homologue is more likely to be emitted to the 10 atmosphere in a small particulate versus a large 11 particulate? And I guess I'm talking about less 12 than 10 microns. 13 A Well, when I'm talking about PCBs on 14 particulates, I'm not talking about individual PCB 15 molecules or particulates being emitted. I'm 16 generally talking about PCBs being adsorbed onto a 17 soil or sediment particle which is subsequently 18 moved by the air transport system. So to that 19 extent, there's really no difference. Any of them 20 are going to adsorb to the soil and could be moved 21 by that mechanism. 22 Q And is that true for any homologue; that any 23 homologue can be adsorbedinto (sic) the soil and 24 can then be moved, whatever size the particulate 25 matter is? 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046453 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 38 1 A As long as it remained adsorbed to that 2 soil. Now, again, there are other processes going 3 on which will change the amount that may or may not 4 be adsorbed to the particular soil particle, 5 depending on the -- basically the chlorination level 6 again. But in general, that's true, yes. Any PCB 7 can adhere to soil. 8 Q Now, tell me what the differences are that 9 affect that adsorption? 10 A Well, it's many of the things we've talked 11 about. If you -- if you take a PCB molecule and put 12 it on a particulate of soil, it's going to adhere to 13 it. It's going to stick to it. However, if it has 14 water solubility, if water runs over that soil 15 particulate, it may absorb that PCB molecule or may 16 not. I mean, it's -- if you're looking at an 17 individual molecule, it's hard to say. 18 But in the agglomeration, if you have lower 19 chlorinated -- excuse me. I'm talking too fast. 20 If you have lower chlorinated materials and 21 water passes over them, then some of those lower 22 chlorinated materials are going to dissolve in that 23 water and be moved away, leaving less on the soil. 24 The same is true if that soil particulate is sitting 25 out in the hot sun and there's a lower chlorinated 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046454 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 39 1 material on it. It's more likely that some of that 2 is going to evaporate into the air, and so there 3 will be less on the soil. 4 Q And what remains on the soil would be the 5 more heavily chlorinated homologue? 6 A That's correct. 7 Q Did I say that correctly? 8 A You said it very precisely, yes. 9 Q All right. 10 A I mean, that's a general statement, but that 11 is a true general statement. 12 Q Okay. 13 A I mean, that's basically one of the 14 things -- number C is weathering. And that's 15 basically the concept of weathering right there 16 Q Okay. And when you talked about the lower 17 chlorinated homologue being washed off in the water, 18 it's actually removed from the particulate matter. 19 the piece, the speck of soil, and it's adsorbed into 20 (sic) the water then? 21 A Well, absorbed, yes. But now, again, I 'm 22 not talking about, you know, if you've got -23 obviously molecules are very, very, very small. So 24 I'm talking about things in the conglomerate. Some 25 of those molecules may -- of that particular 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046455 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 40 1 homologue may be absorb --ad -- may dissolve into 2 the water and be move that way ormay evaporate. 3 But the bulk of those molecules of that homologue 4 are going to stay right where they are. 5 Q Okay. The bulk being the heavier ones? 6 A No. The bulk being the mass of that 7 particular homologue. 8 Q Because mass is what really controls its 9 sticking ability to the particle? 10 A Well, now we're kind of talking past each 11 other. I'm talking about mass in the sense of the 12 weight of the Aroclor that's on there.So what I'm 13 saying is if you have a -- some soil and it has - 14 I'm just going to say a pound. That's a really big 15 number. 16 But you have a pound of -- of a trichloral 17 homologue, let's say PCB 11, on that -- on that soil 18 and it'll be mixed in with a whole bunch of other 19 homologues and congeners. Then water rushes over it 20 and the sun is shining on it. Then some of those 21 PCB 11s are going to evaporate, a very, very small 22 amount. A very, very small amount of those PCB 11s 23 are going to move with the water that's moving. 24 Most of those PCB 11s are going to stay right on the 25 soil where they were. 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046456 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 41 1 Q And the only ones that are going to move are 2 going to be the lightest chlorinated or the least 3 chlorinated - 4 A It ' s a -- 5 Q -- more than likely? 6 A It's a gradation, yes. I mean, it's -- you 7 know, those are the most likely to move. But even 8 the higher can move to some, you know, increasingly 9 small extent. 10 Q Have you done research with respect to 11 the -- we've talked -- let me start over. 12 We talked about both water, but you also 13 have mentioned temperature. Have -- have you done 14 or to your knowledge has Monsanto done studies about 15 the extent to which certain temperatures release or 16 volatilize certain homologues? 17 A I don't know that the term is experiment. I 18 know Monsanto at some point generated vapor pressure 19 curves for PCBs, how much PC -- different PCBs 20 evaporate at different temperatures and drew a graph 21 of that. So, I mean, they have done work in that - 22 in that line, yes. But primarily at elevated, very 23 elevated, temperatures that are more relevant to the 24 manufacture or use situation rather than the 25 environmental situation. 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046457 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 42 1 Q Let's talk about vapors for a minute. 2 When -- when PCB vapors are emitted to the 3 atmosphere, do they recondense? 4 A Yes. 5 Q How quickly do they recondense? 6 A Generally very quickly, but again that 7 depends on the temperature and -- and what the state 8 of the system is and where they are. 9 Q And the speed at which they've been emitted? 10 A Sure, to some extent I would think, yes. 11 Q When they do recondense, what size particle 12 is formed? 13 A Well, it's not really. I mean, usually when 14 something recondenses, it's going to recondense from 15 a vapor phase as more of a film than a -- than a 16 particle. I mean, it may -- it may be a film on a 17 particle, but it's likely to condense as a film. 18 It's going to -- once you get enough of them 19 condensing, it's going to revert to its liquid 20 state. I mean, it's basically the same as dew 21 forming in the morning. You have water vapor in the 22 air. As the temperature cools, those water vapor 23 molecules start adhering to grass or whatever, and 24 it gets wet. It's the same concept. 25 Q And condensing into? 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046458 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 43 1 A A film. In general, you won't see -- I 2 mean, with PCBs you're not going to see a droplet 3 because there's not that much in the -- in the vapor 4 phase to begin with. But you'll see or be able to 5 measure a film that would be -- that would be 6 condensing onto whatever surface was available or 7 onto the soils. 8 Q Does the ability to condense or the 9 likelihood of condensation vary by congener or 10 homologue? 11 A Sure. It's - 12 Q In what way? 13 A Well, again, the lower chlorinated congeners 14 are more likely to remain in the vapor phase, and 15 the higher chlorinated are more likely to condense 16 out as the temperature drops. 17 Q And what happens to those that remain in the 18 vapor phase for a longer period of time? 19 A Well, I mean, in the ultimate if you read 20 the literature, you know, some teeny amount of them 21 make it to the Arctic. Eventually they're going to 22 condense out or, you know, remain. There's probably 23 a give and take. There are, you know, PCBs that are 24 being condensed at the same time there are being - 25 PCBs that are being evaporated. So you have an 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046459 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 44 1 interchange of molecules, but in general they can -2 you know , I mean, it's claimed in the literature 3 they can at some trace levels move globally in the 4 atmosphe re. 5 Q And does that ability to condense also vary 6 based on the temperature? 7 A Sure. 8 Q So in addition to chlorination, temperature 9 would be a variable? 10 A Absolutely. 11 Q All right. When PCBs are present in the 12 atmosphe re, do they or can they adhere to particles 13 that are in the atmosphere that they come across? 14 A Yes . 15 Q Okay. And what's the mechanism by which 16 they do that? Is it just mechanical? 17 A Yes, basically. 18 Q Huh? 19 A Basically. I mean, they'd rather be 20 attached to something than -- than in the vapor 21 phase. So, yeah, they basically -- it's basically a 22 mechanical. 23 Q Does that mechanical attachment to 24 particulate matter vary by -- by Aroclor? 25 A Good question. I don't know that the 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046460 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 45 1 attachment varies, but certainly by Aroclor the - 2 the tendency to remain attached varies because of 3 the different things we've talked about: vapor 4 pressures and watersolubility. 5 Q Again - 6 A They all want to be attached to soil 7 particles, but the higher chlorinated Aroclors or 8 homologues are going to be more firmly attached, 9 more tenaciously attached, than the lower 10 chlorinated materials. 11 Q Harder todisattach, revaporize, the heavier 12 chlorinated homologues or congeners? 13 A Right. 14 Q Is it possible for air transport to disperse 15 Aroclors or any of their homologue or congener 16 components within the Anniston area? 17 A Well, I mean, Anniston is no different than 18 the rest of the world. So, yeah, I mean. 19 Q They're going to get in the environment, in 20 the air? 21 A If PCBs -- I mean, I'm sure there are PCBs 22 in the air in Anniston as well as they are in 23 St. Louis. So, yes. 24 Q Okay. Are certain Aroclors going to migrate 25 in the air further thanothers? 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046461 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 46 1 A I'm just -- not necessarily further but more 2 of them may. So it -- so the answer to your 3 question may look like they're migrating further, 4 but it's primarily a more quantitative thought than 5 it is a qualitative thought. I mean, a vaporized 6 molecule in the air is going to move however it's 7 going to move. And so it -- it doesn't necessarily 8 because of its, you know, individual molecular 9 makeup make it move further. It's just more likely 10 that some of them are more likely to be in the vapor 11 phase and to redistribute into the vapor phase. So 12 it will look like they're moving further; let's put 13 it that way. 14 Q Okay. Well, but if we go back to your 15 comments about finding PCBs in St. Louis or PCBs in 16 the Arctic, I mean, that clearly demonstrates an 17 ability to disperse some -18 A Yes. 19 Q -- major distances, true? 20 A No question. 21 Q And I just need to understand from you 22 are -- is it your view that it is the lower 23 chlorinated congeners or homologues that are going 24 to disperse greater distances than the heavier 25 chlorinated homologues and congeners? 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046462 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 47 1 A And I understood that. 2 Q I thought we were saying the same thing. 3 A And the reason I'm hesitating a little bit 4 is that if -- if you measure the air in Anniston, 5 which has been done -- that's not a surprise to 6 anyone -- and you look at those results -- basically 7 they've all been reported as homologues, I think -8 what you see are the lower chlorinated homologues. 9 There's no question about that. So that's -- that's 10 what seems to be in the air in Anniston, generally 11 true in other cities that have had air measurements 12 done. Recently in Chicago, for example. The lower 13 chlorinated materials are what you see. 14 However, when you go up to the Arctic and 15 start looking for PCBs in snow or whatever, you 16 don't necessarily see only the lower chlorinated 17 materials, surprisingly to me. And so eventually 18 all of them manage to make their way up there one 19 way or another, and they more -- they seem to more 20 reflect the normal environmental distribution of 21 PCBs in sediments and soils than they do the air 22 distribution that we see when we measure them in 23 air. 24 Q Well, how would -25 A Am I making sense? 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046463 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 48 1 Q Well, I'm not sure. 2 A I thinkit'sjust because it's an 3 integration over time that the materials, the 4 heavier, once they get up there, they tend to stay 5 put better so that it kind of evens out the 6 distribution. 7 Q But how would heavier chlorinated PCBs or 8 congeners, homologues, get to the Arctic? 9 A Well, they can -- they can be in the vapor 10 phase. They're just not as likely to be in the 11 vapor phase. 12 Q I see. 13 A So as -- youknow, over timeonce they get 14 up there, they're more likely to stay there while 15 the lower chlorinated materials, even in Arctic 16 conditions, are more likely to come back off those 17 soil particles or stuff and get back into 18 circulation. So I'm not sure it's totally 19 understood, and I certainly don't totally understand 20 it. But that's -- that's my understanding. 21 Q I think I understand that. So what you're 22 saying is, is that once they -- as we would say in 23 Texas, once they light on something, on particulate 24 matter, the heavier chlorinated congeners are less 25 likely to continue movement thereafter? 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046464 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 49 1 A Correct. I would agree with that. 2 Q All right. And the lighter chlorinated 3 congeners, though, may settle once and then be blown 4 in the wind, settle a second time, and this may go 5 on for years and years and miles and miles? 6 A Yeah. I would agree with that generally, 7 yes. 8 Q Okay. All right. And -- and as a 9 consequence, then, it's possible, then, for both 10 wind erosion and air to redistribute soils that -11 on which congeners have fallen? 12 A It's possible, yes. 13 Q Or adhered? 14 A Correct. 15 Q And that's true even if we look at an area 16 as definitive and -- and -- and small as the 17 Monsanto plant in Anniston, Alabama? 18 MR. MERRILL: I'm going to object to the 19 form of the question. 20 A Yeah, and I'm not sure exactly what you 21 mean. 22 Q (By Mr. Schick) Okay. I'll restate it. 23 A I mean, are they being re -- go ahead. I'll 24 let you restate it. 25 Q Aroclors or congeners that are on the soil 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046465 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 50 1 in the plant around the Monsanto plant there in 2 Anniston, after that soil's dried, they can be 3 picked up by the wind and -- and moved, correct? 4 A Assuming there are PCBs on those soils, that 5 is -- that's a concept, yes. 6 Q Sure. Okay. All right. Now -- and in 7 fact, what you're telling me, then, is that once 8 they're moved, it's the lighter chlorinated 9 homologues or the lighter chlorinated congeners that 10 may move a second, third, fourth, fifth time? 11 A Well, not -- okay. Now, but you're going by 12 other mechanisms, not by wind blowing particulates? 13 Q But it could be by wind blowing 14 particulates, couldn't it? 15 A No. Because the wind blowing particulates 16 is not discriminating by the particular congeners 17 that are on those particulates. I mean, they're 18 there as such trivially small amounts that it's not 19 changing the characteristic of that particulate. So 20 to a particulate and wind blowing that particulate, 21 it doesn't matter whether it's a monochlorobiphenyl 22 or a hexachlorobiphenyl. 23 Q Or a decachlorobiphenyl? 24 A Or a deca, you know, right. It doesn't 25 really matter as long as -- if it's on there and 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046466 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 51 1 that soil particle is moving, it's going to move it. 2 It doesn't matter which one it is. 3 Q Okay. All right. Are you aware of studies 4 suggesting that PCBs are present in tree bark in the 5 Anniston area? 6 A Yes. 7 Q You're familiar with the Hermanson study? 8 A Yes. 9 Q How do you explain how those PCBs detected 10 in tree bark got there? 11 A Well, let me first of all say that you have 12 to assume that the analyses were done correctly and 13 that they actually represent what they're purported 14 to represent. But given that assumption, I -- I 15 think it's they probably to some extent or a 16 complete extent are adsorbed from either airborne 17 vaporized PCBs or dust that had lit on -- had lit on 18 those trees, and then the PCBs transferred to the -- 19 to the tree bark, unless it's still on the dirt 20 that's on the tree bark. I don't know. 21 Q Okay. If PCBs come to rest on the ground. 22 they can re-evaporate into the atmosphere under the 23 right conditions, true? 24 A Again, depending, right, where the rate 25 would depend on the amount of chlorine on the 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046467 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 52 1 molecules. 2 Q Okay. Dr. Kaley, there's some sampling data 3 that's in the EPA's database that indicates that 4 there are properties that have been identified where 5 there's 12 -- Aroclor 1260 and Aroclor 1268 present, 6 and they're outside the floodplain? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And in those properties there's been no 9 finding that Solucia has made any note of, at least, 10 of any foundry material being present. 11 So my question to you is: How would 12 Aroclors 1260 and 1268 get to properties in the 13 Anniston area outside the floodplain? 14 A I don't know. 15 Q I'm sorry? 16 A I don't know. I mean, it's going to 17 depend -- each one is going to have an individual 18 answer, and I don't necessarily have an answer for 19 any particular one of them as I sit here. 20 Q Anything other than an air pathway that you 21 can think of? 22 A Well, other mechanical transport that -- I 23 mean, if you're going to exclude foundry 24 specifically, it could be transport from some other 25 source other than the foundries. 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046468 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 53 1 Q Sure. You could have dredged material that 2 was placed there from a waterway? 3 A That's conceptually correct, yes. 4 Q But we could also go back to what we were 5 discussing earlier about wind picking up and not 6 discriminating with respect to homologues or blowing 7 that soil elsewhere? 8 A Well, I think conceptually that's true, but 9 I don't think in reality that mechanism makes sense 10 in the Anniston situation, because if that were the 11 case, you would have a -- a plume or a smooth 12 distribution of those materials over a wider area 13 rather than an isolated finding of those particular 14 Aroclors in a property where there's nothing next 15 door. 16 So it's conceptual again, and I would also 17 say that the levels found are inconsistent with that 18 because the transport by air, whether higher 19 chlorinated or lower chlorinated, is moving very 20 small amounts of materials. You're not going to be 21 able to accumulate, you know, parts per million of 22 PCBs in soil from parts per trillion of PCBs in air. 23 So I don't really -- as I sit here, don't believe 24 that's a logical mechanism. 25 Q But, of course, this air movement would take 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046469 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 54 1 place over a period of time in Anniston, at least. 2 from 1935 until 1970, true, 35-year period? 3 A Yes . 4 Q You're familiar with the Anniston area? 5 A Yes . 6 Q Hilly? 7 A Some of it, yes. 8 Q Do you know whether the wind blows in -- in 9 consistent patterns and whether there are downdrafts 10 anywhe re? 11 A Well, I'm sure there are. I haven't studied 12 the meteorological conditions, but I'm sure it 13 doesn' t blow in the same direction every day at the 14 same speed. 15 Q Have you seen any air modeling that's been 16 done? 17 A I don't think I've seen any actual modeling, 18 no. I 've seen the -- you know, the measurements and 19 things , but I don't know that I've actually seen any 20 modeling results. 21 Q If you have PCBs greater than 1 part per 22 million on a particular yard and not on the next 23 door yard, is it equally plausible that it had been 24 in the yard where it's no longer detectable and rain 25 over the years has washed it onto the downstream 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046470 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 55 1 yard? 2 A Again, I suppose in a -- one particular 3 situation, if that describes that particular yard. 4 you could consider that as a possible mechanism. 5 I -- you know, I don't know that that's a general 6 explanation for all the findings in Anniston. 7 Q But -- but we do know that PCBs can be 8 transported through sediment moved by water? 9 A Sure. 10 Q How are PCBs transported when they're 11 present in soils? 12 We've talked a little bit about air. And 13 they do tend to stick to -- stick in place when 14 they're released? 15 A Right. 16 Q I think I heard you say. When they're 17 spilled -- when they're located in soils, do they 18 have a low mobility in the environment? 19 A I believe as a general concept that's true, 20 yes. 21 Q Okay. By the way, what's the difference 22 between -- and maybe there isn't one -- but 23 adsorpt ion with a D, as in dog, and absorption with 24 a B, as in boy? 25 A Adsorption with a D is generally considered 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046471 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 56 1 as onto, okay? And absorption is generally 2 considered as into. 3 Q Okay. Similar to solubility? 4 A So water -- water would -- water would 5 absorb, with a B, into a sponge; but it would adsorb 6 onto a blade of grass when the dew hits it, because 7 it stays on the surface and sits there. 8 Q And is that why you used adsorb with -- when 9 referring to various congeners and homologues 10 because they tend to stick and because of their low 11 solubility? 12 A It's a surficial attachment to the soil 13 particles. They're not actually -- you know, again 14 depending on what particular soil or solid you're 15 talking about, in general they're not absorbed into 16 the interior of those materials. 17 Q Okay. Dr. Kaley, how are PCBs transported 18 via water? 19 A Well, I think we talked about that. Some - 20 some small amount -- or very small amount may be 21 transported as dissolved PCBs in the water, and to 22 the extent there's particulate matter with PCBs on 23 it, a larger amount will be transported by movement 24 of those particulates in the water system. 25 Q And they can actually be moved in the water 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046472 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 57 1 itself, or they can become attached to soil in 2 the -- in the waterway? 3 A Correct. The second is by far the biggest, 4 the most significant, mechanism of transport. The 5 transport by water, dissolved in water itself, is 6 really very, very small. 7 Q But if it's not absorbed in the water, it 8 can still flow in the water? Those molecules of 9 heavier chlorinated homologues can still flow in the 10 water? 11 A If they're dissolved in the water. But the 12 more heavily the chlorinated -- the more heavily 13 chlorinated they are, the far less likely they are 14 to be absorbed or dissolved in the water. We're 15 really moving into a different concept of dissolved 16 versus absorption. 17 Q Okay. But is that because they fall to the 18 sediment? 19 A Well, that's -- that would be -- yeah, I 20 mean, that would be the eventual outcome. If they 21 were there, they're more likely to adhere to any 22 particle, whether it's a sediment or whatever it 23 might be or a plant material or something that's in 24 that water phase. The heavier chlorinated materials 25 want to be out of that water a lot more than the 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046473 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 58 1 lighter chlorinated materials. 2 Q And you're aware from the work that you've 3 done over the years that PCBs can be transported a 4 number of miles downstream? 5 A Certainly. 6 Q All right. Do the different congeners of 7 PCBs tend to have the same rates of mobility through 8 soil deposition and storm water runoff, or does it 9 vary? 10 MR. MERRILL: I'm going to object to the 11 form of the question. 12 Q (By Mr. Schick) Let's take them one at a 13 time. Do the various congeners of PCBs tend to have 14 the same rates of mobility through soil deposition? 15 A By movement of soils in a water stream? 16 Q Yes, sir. 17 A Sure. If they're -- if a PCB, no matter 18 what congener level is adsorbed to a soil parallel, 19 it's going to go with the soil parallel. It 20 doesn't -- I think we've talked. It doesn't matter 21 which - - which congener it is. 22 Q Right. 23 A The transport is determined by the transport 24 of the soil particle, not by what PCB is adsorbed to 25 it. 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046474 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 59 1 Q It doesn't matter whether it's deca or 2 tetrachlorobiphenyl? 3 A Correct. 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Pardon me, Counsel. We 5 have about 3 1/2 minutes. 6 Q (By Mr. Schick) Okay. What about with 7 respect to rate of mobility in storm water runoff or 8 surface water transport; does it depend on 9 chlorination level? Does it vary by chlorination 10 level, by homologue? 11 A No. Again, I mean, it's going to be 12 determined by what's moving and how fast it's 13 moving, not by what the chlorination level is. 14 Q Okay. So one congener doesn't have any 15 greater mobility really than another, in -16 A In the terms -17 Q -- the -18 A -- that we've just -- 19 Q -- water? 20 A -- been discussing as a congener adhered to 21 a soil particulate and the soil is being moved by 22 water, there's no difference in congener. Now, the 23 term mobility involves a -- is a general -- more 24 general term that talks about some of the other -25 that includes some of the other things we've talked 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046475 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 60 1 about before: vapor pressure, water solubility. So 2 in general they have -- the lower chlorinated have 3 greater motility but not in the sense we've just 4 been discussing where we have a particle that's 5 being moved by water. 6 MR. SCHICK: Okay. Good time for a break 7 Thank you very much. 8 THE WITNESS: You're welcome. 9 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're off the record at 10 10:12. This ends tape one. 11 (Off the record.) 12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on record at 13 10:20. This begins tape No. 2 of the deposition of 14 Dr. Robert Kaley. 15 Q (By Mr. Schick) Dr. Kaley, when we took our 16 break, I had asked you about the mobility of PCBs 17 through water and -- and runoff. And -- and you 18 were emphasizing the difference between mobility and 19 motility. What is meant by motility? 20 A Well, I'm not -- I just wanted to -- I 21 was -- my discrimination was based to make sure we 22 were talking about the same thing. I'm not sure 23 there is any difference between mobility and 24 motility. 25 Q And you don't mean anything different when 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046476 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 61 1 you use one -2 A No. 3 Q -- instead of the other? 4 A No. 5 Q Okay. Fair enough. Now I want to talk 6 about something that you've already mentioned and 7 we've talked a little bit about, which is 8 weathering. And what do you mean by the term 9 weathering as relates to PCBs? 10 A Well, in the overall view, the simplest 11 definition is weathering describes the process or by 12 processes or really the outcome of the processes by 13 which different either physical or biological 14 activities change the composition of a particular 15 PCB mixture that is president -- president -- is 16 present in some typically environmental system. 17 Q And when we talk about weathering with 18 respect to PCBs, are we talking about loss of 19 chlorination? 20 A There are a number of processes that -- that 21 are encompassed in the term, and we've talked about 22 most of them. Weathering includes volatilization; 23 it includes solubility and removal from that 24 particular site; it can involve biodegradation; it 25 can involve dechlorination, or other degradation 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046477 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 62 1 processes. 2 Q And -- and I assume that weathering is 3 something that -- as you've just articulated the 4 universe of weathering, something you've studied 5 over your time with Monsanto? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And subsequently? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And are there formal studies that have been 10 done, either by you or by others at Monsanto, about 11 weathering? 12 A Not particularly about weathering in 13 general. I mean, certainly we've looked at things 14 like water solubility and things like that. But as 15 far as actually studying weathering itself and those 16 processes, there was some work done on 17 biodegradation of various Aroclors, which is a 18 con -- which is a constituent of the weathering 19 process. But to go out and say we actually were 20 studying weathering, not really, no. 21 Q Have you done any kind of analysis on a 22 particular homologue or congener with respect to the 23 circumstances under which it dechlorinates or 24 vaporizes? 25 You've mentioned vapor pressures, but beyond 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046478 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 63 1 that, what other analyses are you familiar with? 2 A Well, as far as anything done at Monsanto, 3 there's nothing. As far as the literature, I mean, 4 I've continued to read a lot of things. I mean, 5 there's a lot of work been published by, for 6 instance, General Electric researchers on 7 dechlorination processes in the Hudson River or 8 things and then just general studies of weathering 9 in general. 10 Q Have any of those studies that you just 11 mentioned, the GE and the Hudson River, changed your 12 view of the weathering ofAroclors or particular 13 congeners? 14 A Yes, to a certain extent. 15 Q In what way? 16 A Well, I think just the fact thatcertain 17 PCBs under anaerobic conditions can be dechlorinated 18 in environmental systems leading to lower 19 chlorinated congeners being detected than were 20 originally there. I think it's a concept that's 21 developed over the past 20 years, and certainly when 22 I was doing the analytical chemistry, the concept 23 was always that the homologue mixture or the 24 congener mixture would progress to higher 25 chlorinated congeners. 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046479 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 64 1 Q In what -- I'm sorry. 2 A But I was going to say: Again, the 3 dechlorination only occurs under very specific and 4 not all that usual conditions. So it's certainly 5 had an impact on my thinking, but I don't know that 6 it's changed my general view of how Aroclors 7 weather. 8 Q And -- and just not to repeat all that we've 9 done in the last hour, but how do they in general 10 weather? 11 A In general the lower chlorinated -- if you 12 look at a specific site, the lower chlorinated 13 congeners tend to disappear over months to -- weeks 14 to months to years, and the heavier chlorinated 15 materials tend to remain there to be measured. 16 Q And when they remain there, they're sticking 17 to particulate? 18 A Generally, yes. 19 Q But when you say the lighter ends disappear, 20 they don't trulydisappear from the universe; 21 they're somewhere, aren'tthey? 22 A No. I mean, certainly a lot of them, the 23 lower chlorinated, are biodegraded into carbon 24 dioxide and water. They're gone. So, no. 25 Certainly some of them absolutely -- absolutely do 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046480 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 65 1 disappear. Even heavier chlorinated will biodegrade 2 to a certain extent over some period of time. And 3 the dechlorination process, of course, if you're 4 taking a heavier chlorinated material, removing 5 chlorine, making a lighter chlorinated material, 6 then under proper conditions the other kind of 7 biodegradation can occur and those disappear, too. 8 They're basically what they call mineralized, and 9 they're gone. 10 Q When a particular Aroclor is deposited in 11 the environment, over time and with weathering, can 12 it appear to be a different Aroclor? 13 A That is -- yes. The answer to that is yes, 14 but that's an oversimplification. It's basically a 15 function of the analytical chemistry that's used to 16 measure Aroclors. 17 Q And that analytical chemistry is the mass 18 spectometry and gas chromatograph we talked about 19 earlier? 20 A In that case it's primarily just a gas 21 chromatograph, not a massspectrometer. Because 22 you're looking at, what we call, anAroclor 23 analysis, where you're only characterizing by 24 Aroclor. You don't need a mass spec to do that. 25 Q Well, if we want to characterize by 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046481 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 66 1 congener, what do we need? 2 A Well, you can do it with just a GC, with 3 what they call an electron capture detector, but the 4 mass spec is more sensitive and more precise. But 5 you can do it with just by separation in a gas 6 chromatograph. 7 Q What about mixtures of PCBs that aren't a 8 specific Aroclor mixture; anything you can tell 9 about those by any kind of test after weathering? 10 MR. MERRILL: Object to the form of the 11 question. 12 A Yeah. Again, I think depending on what 13 you're studying and what you're trying to learn by 14 your analyses, you may be able to find some 15 information. But other than that, I'm not sure I 16 understand the question. 17 Q (By Mr. Schick) Well, let me put it this 18 way: Is weathering always going to make a PCB 19 appear to be less chlorinated than it was 20 originally? 21 A No. I would say subject to some anaerobic 22 dechlorination, it's always going to make it appear 23 to be more chlorinated. 24 Q Because the lower chlorinateds have 25 volatized or have disappeared? 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046482 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 67 1 A Right. 2 Q But it does depend on the nature of the 3 environment or the media in which the PCB is located 4 as to how much weathering takes place, true? 5 A Sure, yes. 6 Q More weathering, for example, say, on the 7 surface of the soil than subsurface? 8 A Yes . 9 Q More -- more weathering -- that is, more 10 dechlorination -- of a PCB in heat than in less 11 heat? 12 MR. MERRILL: I'll object to the form of the 13 question. 14 A Probably not. I need to emphasize 15 dechlorination is really a very rare process. 16 Dechlorination only occurs in what they call 17 anaerobic conditions. 18 Q (By Mr. Schick) Okay. We're talking about 19 two different things, then. I'm sorry. I used it 20 incorrectly. 21 A Okay. 22 Q Tell me what dechlorination means. 23 A Well, dechlorination is the removal of 24 chlorines, okay? De, removed. So if a -- if a 25 particular congener is being dechlorinated, it will 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046483 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 68 1 end up with fewer chlorines on it. So, for 2 instance, it can move from a hexachlorobiphenyl -- a 3 hexachlorobiphenyl that is dechlorinated could end 4 up as a trichlorobiphenyl. So it's removal of 5 chlorines. All right? 6 The only place that occurs in nature is in 7 anaerobic conditions, conditions where no oxygen is 8 present. The only place that occurs in nature is 9 deeply buried sediments. All right? So it's only 10 in water systems that have deeply buried sediments, 11 basically stationary systems, that that 12 dechlorination is occurring. 13 Q Okay. Otherwise in the nonanaerobic 14 environments, we're looking at more heavily -- after 15 weathering the congener looks more heavily 16 chlorinated than it was earlier? 17 A No. The mixture taken as a whole looks more 18 heavily chlorinated. You're not -- you're never -19 I don't think you're ever -- I'd have to think about 20 it. But in the environment, you're probably never 21 adding chlorines to a congener. It's just that the 22 heavier chlorinated congeners tend to stay longer so 23 that's what you're seeing relative to the lower. So 24 it's a mixture concept. It's not an individual 25 congener concept. You're not changing the congener. 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046484 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 69 1 You're changing the overall mixture. 2 Q Are you changing the homologue? 3 A Well, you're changing -- again, a homologue 4 is just a -- is an accumulation of -- or an addition 5 of congeners. So you're changing the homologue 6 distribution, but you're not changing -- I mean, you 7 can't really change a homologue because it's a 8 mixture itself. So you're changing the homologue 9 distribution of a -- of a mixture. So you're going 10 to more highly chlorinated -- I mean, the very fact 11 that you're going to more heavily chlorinated 12 congeners left in the sample means you're going to 13 have more heavily chlorinated homologues, because 14 that's all the homologue is, is adding up the 15 congeners. 16 Q Is a decachlorobiphenyl less likely to 17 weather than a tetrachlorobiphenyl? 18 A Yes. Again, the individual -- and again, 19 I'm not sure you can talk about weathering - 20 weathering is a -- is a concept of mixtures. But 21 the things that cause weathering are -- are less 22 likely to occur with decachlorobiphenyl than with a 23 tetrachlorobiphenyl. 24 Q All right. So weathering does vary by 25 congener or homologue? 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046485 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 70 1 A The effect of weathering, yes, I will agree 2 with that. I'm not going to quibble about that. 3 Q And it also varies, I presume, based on the 4 nature of the environment in which it's located? 5 A That's correct. 6 Q Are there established half-lives for various 7 Aroclors or congeners or homologues? 8 A There are certainty published half-lives for 9 Aroclors, which is kind of a meaningless concept 10 actually, and for congeners, yes. I don't know if 11 they're established, but there are -- there are some 12 that are published. 13 Q Does weathering actually change the 14 structure of the PCB molecules? 15 A No. Well, now, that's not true. If you 16 have dechlorination, you are changing the structure 17 of the PCB molecules. 18 Q That's in the anaerobic environment? 19 A Right. But in the general -- what I 20 generally consider weathering, solubility, 21 vaporization, that -- those are not changing the 22 structure. Now, biodegradation, of course, is 23 changing the structure of the molecules. It's 24 either, you know, changing the -- you know, well, in 25 some way or another. So, yeah, I mean, after 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046486 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 71 1 biodegradation, you no longer have a PCB. You have 2 some subsequent product of that biodegradation. 3 So, again, you have to differentiate -- I 4 guess the differentiation is between the physical 5 processes that lead to weathering which don't change 6 the molecule and the biochemical or bio -- you know, 7 biological processes which dochange the molecules. 8 Q And what are those biological processes? 9 Are those the anaerobic? 10 A Well, it can be anaerobic dechlorination or 11 it can be aerobic biodegradation where the molecule 12 is basically oxidized, like food is oxidized in your 13 body. 14 Q But that requires some other chemical to 15 oxidize? 16 A Generally it requires little beasties. I 17 mean, at biodegradation it'sbeing - 18 Q Bugs? 19 A Bugs, yeah. 20 Q Let me ask itthis way: Can you tell me 21 whether between 1242 and, say, 1248 which one would 22 degrade more quickly in, say, a shallow soil? 23 AWell, because Aroclor 1242 has more of the 24 lower chlorinated materials, those are more likely 25 to degrade. So 1242 will in general degrade more 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046487 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 72 1 quickly as a mixture than Aroclor 1248. 2 Q Okay. And will the weathering of Aroclors 3 within a landfill similarly differ based on -- based 4 on the amount of heavier end homologues or 5 congeners? 6 A Well, to the extent that you could 7 hypothesize there would be weathering in a landfill, 8 the answer would be yes. But my guess would be that 9 in a landfill, very little weathering is occurring, 10 because the molecules are not exposed to those 11 forces that -- that encourage weather. 12 Q Unless they rise to the surface somehow? 13 A Well, if you can hypothesize a mechanism for 14 that, yeah. I guess if they got to the surface, I 15 wouldn't consider them inthe landfill anymore. 16 But, yeah, I mean, obviously if they get to the 17 surface where they can be acted upon by water, you 18 know, bugs, whatever,then sure. 19 Q Okay. Or taken off by water, as you say, 20 from a landfill? 21 A If they're exposed, yes. 22 Q So am I correct, then, in understanding that 23 what might have been originally emitted, let's say, 24 as 1242 can after weathering appear to be more like 25 1260, Aroclor 1260? 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046488 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 73 1 A I'm not sure I would go that far. I might 2 go to a 1248 or a 1254. And the key word is appear. 3 Yes, it could appear or be misidentified as a 4 heavier chlorinated mixture. 5 Q And why do you not go so far as to go from 6 1242 to 1260? 7 A Well, if you look at the congener 8 distribution of those two materials, they don't 9 overlap very -- weathering depends on an overlap of 10 congeners. Again, we're not changing the congeners. 11 All we' re doing is changing the relative amounts 12 that are present. And there's so little overlap in 13 the congener makeup of Aroclor 1242; in other words, 14 it has such low levels of the higher chlorinated 15 congeners -16 Q Right. 17 A -- that for it to go all the way to look 18 like 1260 is probably not going to happen. 19 Q Can 1254 weather to look like 1260? 20 A That's more likely, yes. 21 Q Can 1254 weather to look like 1268? 22 A Probably not. 23 Q Why not? 24 A Again, I think it's a question of which 25 congeners are present in the -- in the particular 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046489 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 74 1 materials. I think the congeners that are present 2 in Aroclor 1268 are so -- at such low levels in 3 Aroclor 1254, plus the fact the congener -- that 4 it's not going to change for that reason. Plus the 5 congeners in 1254 tend to be a lot more stable. So 6 they're going to stay there, so it's not going to 7 change as much as a 1242 would. 8 Q Okay. So 1254 is less likely to weather? 9 A Absolutely. 10 Q 1268 is less likely to weather? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Okay. So it is not likely that more heavily 13 chlorinated Aroclors after weathering appear to be 14 less chlorinated? 15 A Only in anaerobic subsediment situations. 16 Q Okay. Could any of the Aroclors, any of the 17 Aroclors that were produced at the Anniston plant. 18 weather to such an extent that the analytical 19 methods being used to identify them misidentify them 20 as 1268? 21 A As 1268? 22 Q Yes, sir. 23 A Specifically? 24 Q Yeah. 25 A If you're -- if you're strictly talking 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046490 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 75 1 about Aroclors, probably not. 2 Q Because of the weathering effect -- and I 3 understand what you're saying about the heavy ends 4 like the 1254, 1260, 1268, but with respect to those 5 lighter ones, the 1242s, for example, are there 6 analyses beyond just Aroclor-specific analyses that 7 can be performed to -- to fingerprint or identify 8 what was it originally? 9 A In the context of a specific situation, you 10 may be able to do, I mean, some -- what's called 11 fingerprinting, if you're looking for source 12 identification. 13 Q Yeah. 14 A You have to have some -- some previous 15 knowledge. Source identification or fingerprinting 16 really depends on knowing what you started with 17 here, what you started with there, and how they 18 contributed to what you ended up with someplace 19 else. Okay? So it can help, but you can't -- it's 20 not something you can do, you know, just out in 21 the -- you know, ab novo. You can't just look at a 22 sample and say it came from that or something that 23 came from that. There's no -- there's no marker in 24 Aroclor 1242, for example, that say it came from 25 Aroclor 1242. 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046491 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 76 1 Q Okay. Well, but I guess I need to know what 2 kind of sources or specific situations you're 3 talking about. Are you talking about, you know, was 4 it close to XYZ Foundry, or are you talking about it 5 was in surface soil and it was located, you know, so 6 far from a waterway; that helps me determine it? 7 A No. 8 MR. MERRILL: I'll object -- 9 Q (By Mr. Schick) Okay. 10 MR. MERRILL: -- to the form of the 11 question. 12 Q (By Mr. Schick) What are you referring to 13 as a specific situation that you have to know? 14 A Let me think of -- let me describe what I'm 15 talking about when -- when I hear the term 16 fingerprinting, and it may not be the same thing 17 that you're thinking about. 18 But fingerprinting to me is if you go out in 19 the environment and you have -- you take a sample 20 and you get -- I don't care whether it's an Aroclor 21 analysis or a congener analysis or something. Okay? 22 And you want to know -- okay, I know it's here. I 23 want to know where it came from. Maybe it came from 24 source A or maybe it came from source B. All right? 25 To really do fingerprinting, you have to 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046492 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 77 1 know what the original output from source A was and 2 know what the original source output from source B 3 was and then compare, with concepts of weathering 4 and other things in mind, whether it's more likely 5 than not that the sample you're looking at in the 6 environment came from either A or B. All right? 7 Q So you're making judgments about what you 8 know about source A versus B? 9 A Right. You have to -- right. You have to 10 have some foreknowledge of -- of what the source 11 looked like to contribute to that ultimate outcome 12 in the environment. 13 Q But you can't just take a sample of Aroclor 14 1254, what you currently say is that's 1254, and say 15 when this thing was originally produced, it was 16 1242? Can you do that much? 17 A No. That's -- that's probably as far down 18 the line of what you can't do as you can get. 19 Q Okay. 20 A Because when it -- when an analytical 21 chemist -- and this is a source of much confusion 22 and not much understanding. An analytical chemist 23 or computer system, when it does an Aroclor 24 analysis, it's basically doing a pattern 25 recognition. It's looking at the chromatogram. 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046493 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 78 1 Q Yeah. 2 A I assume you've seen chromatograms? 3 Q Yes . 4 A It's looking at a chromatogram and the 5 peaks, and it's saying, Okay, to me today this 6 accumulation of peaks looks more like 1254 than it 7 does 1242 or 1248 or 1260. So I'm going to call it 8 Aroclor 1254. But it isn't Aroclor 1254. It's a 9 sample from the environment that looks more like 10 Aroclor 1254 than it does anything else. So you 11 can't tell whether that sample originated as Aroclor 12 1242, Aroclor 1248 or Aroclor 1254, because -13 Q It won't tell you where it's been? 14 A No. All the things -- all the things 15 that -- that are in there, you know, could have come 16 from any of those things. It won't tell you where 17 it's been unless you have some foreknowledge in a 18 fairly simple system. 19 Q Fair enough. Tell me which Aroclors have 20 decachlorobiphenyl in them. Is there any besides 21 Aroclor 1268? 22 A Aroclor 1260 may have some. I'd have to 23 check to be sure, but Aroclor 1260 may have some. 24 Q If you see a decachlorobiphenyl in a -- in a 25 sample, does that mean that that had to have been 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046494 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 79 1 there in the original, whenever it was originally 2 produced; in that original source, in other words? 3 A Again, I don't know the answer to that. The 4 reason I don't know the answer to that is because 5 combustion processes can create higher chlorinated 6 materials, and -- and I don't want to -- I don't 7 know whether there's any objection to saying the 8 word dioxin or not. 9 But if you look at -- there's been a lot of 10 work done on it -- on looking at incineration and 11 leading to chlorinated dioxins in the environment. 12 whether it's backyard burning or medical 13 incinerateds or whatever. Well, when you look at 14 that, the bulk of materials you see are the most 15 highly chlorinated dioxins. In that case, there's 16 eight, octachlorodibenzodioxins. All right. And we 17 know it didn't start there. 18 So in combustion processes, it appears 19 that -- certainly it does more than appears. It's 20 true that you get more highly chlorinated materials 21 through that process. And I don't know the studies 22 that have been done, and I'm not aware of any, but 23 it's certainty conceptual that decachlorobiphenyl 24 could be created. And we know PCBs are created in 25 incineration processes; that decachlorobiphenyl 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046495 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 80 1 could be created in an incineration process. 2 Q Are you aware of any of those incineration 3 processes that took place in the Anniston area? 4 A Well, since I'm not aware of any studies, I 5 don't know specific -- I can't point you to any 6 specifics. I'm talking right -- to be honest I'm 7 strictly talking conceptually. But I think there 8 are certainly other, you know, sources of deca that 9 could be hypothesized. 10 Q Other than combustion, though, and looking 11 in the Anniston area, if I see a decachlorobiphenyl, 12 is it more likely than not that the original was -13 had contained that decachlorobiphenyl? 14 A With the -- you know, with the proviso that 15 you say, I think it's more likely than not that it 16 occurred -- it contained it, yeah. 17 Q Okay. Are there any particular congeners or 18 homologues that are not affected by the weathering 19 process? I mean, we talked a little about -20 A Well, it depends on how -- how -21 Q It's a continuum? 22 A -- how low you want to go. 23 Q Okay. 24 A I mean, to zero, no. But clearly the more 25 highly chlorinated materials -- once you get to 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046496 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 81 1 seven or eight or higher, there's not much going to 2 be going on weathering with those chlorination 3 levels, other than back to our friendly 4 dechlorination in deep sediments. That does seem to 5 occur for some of those. 6 Q In the Anniston area, is there any 7 particular Aroclor, homologue, or congener that 8 would be a unique identifier for a particular 9 source? 10 A No, not that I know of. 11 Q Okay. If PCBs are emittedas vapors during 12 the production process itself - 13 A Yes. 14 Q -- would there be preferential emissions of 15 particular Aroclors or particular congeners? 16 A Well, the emissions at the immediate source, 17 there probably wouldn't be any preferential emission 18 of given congeners. I mean, the Aroclor is going to 19 depend on what you're making. So if you're making 20 1242, that's what you're going to emit. Or if 21 you're making 1254, that's probably what you're 22 going it emit. 23 But the congener profile as you move away 24 from that immediate source at the manufacturing site 25 is going to change very, very rapidly depending on 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046497 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 82 1 the congeners, because as we discussed earlier, the 2 more heavily chlorinated are going to condense 3 faster. They're going to -- you know, all those 4 things that determine their environmental mobility 5 are going to start kicking in. So they're going 6 to -- the higher chlorinated are going to be removed 7 from that profile a lot more rapidly than the lower 8 chlorinated materials which are more likely to 9 remain in the vapor phase. 10 Q And those that remain in the vapor phase, 11 it's the lighter homologues that are going to remain 12 in the vapor phase for longer? 13 A That's generally correct, yes. 14 Q We talked a little bit earlier about the 15 fact that PCBs that are released into the 16 environment and end up in soils can -- can -- they 17 can actually migrate back into the atmosphere, be 18 blown. I mean, we talked about that in connection 19 with the Arctic. 20 A At very low levels, yes, correct. 21 Q That would also be true of, say, the 22 floodplain where a flood occurs that washes PCBs out 23 of a waterway onto a floodplain; and when it dries 24 out, those PCBs attach to particulate matter; if 25 sufficiently dry, could be picked up by the wind? 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046498 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 83 1 A At some level, yes. 2 Q Okay. My colleague here is a lot smarter 3 than I am. Asked me to ask you this follow-up. 4 A I noticed. Not that he was more smarter 5 than you. Just I noticed he asked -- he wants you 6 to ask this question. 7 Q Trust me. He's smarter than I am. 8 MR. LIPPARD: I'm nowhere close to as smart 9 as Bob is. 10 Q (By Mr. Schick) When decachlorobiphenyl is 11 created during combustion -- you were talking about 12 combustion -- what particular materials have to be 13 present to create a heavier chlorinated homologue? 14 A Well, again, I'm going to -- I'm 15 hypothesizing to a certain extent, but I'm going to 16 go back to my dioxin experiment and my dioxin 17 knowledge; and it is that you have to have carbon 18 and chlorine and heat. If you have a combustion 19 system where you have carbon, chlorine, and heat, 20 you're going to generate dioxins and presumably 21 PCBs . 22 Q Can PCBs present in surface waters of a 23 waterway be lifted into the air? 24 A Yes. There is -- again, we're talking about 25 very, very small amounts, but there is an 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046499 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 84 1 interchange between air and water -- dissolved PCBs 2 in water and the air, yes. 3 Q Okay. And is that through volatilization. 4 or is it either volatilization or through attachment 5 to a particulate that just gets picked up? 6 A Well, I'm -- well, I think in the case 7 you're discussing, it's going to be volatilization. 8 I mean, because otherwise -- I don't -- I don't know 9 other than if -- if you're in a hell of a storm, I 10 guess you could have particulates spewing into the 11 air, but in a quiescent lake situation, it's going 12 to be volatilization. 13 (Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 2 14 marked for identification.) 15 Q (By Mr. Schick) Let me hand you what I've 16 marked as Exhibit 2 to your deposition. And just to 17 sort of set the stage here, this is a December 19, 18 2005, letter that was sent to the EPA. 19 I assume you've seen this before? 20 A It's possible but I don't know whether I 21 have or not, frankly. 22 Q I just want to ask you about a couple of 23 questions here. Turning to page 4. 24 A Okay. 25 Q There's a statement that, Because of the 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046500 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 85 1 physical properties of PCBs, low volatility -2 A I'm sorry. Where are you? 3 Q I'm sorry. I apologize. 4 A I'm going to try to look at my document. 5 Q Yeah, you're really better off doing that. 6 A I'm with you. I found it. 7 Q Because of the physical properties of PCBs, 8 low volatility at ambient temperatures, essentially 9 all of the PCBs discharged from leaks or vents in 10 the process would condense close by in the 11 manufacturing facility itself. 12 Do you agree with that statement? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And is that saying that PCB vapors can't 15 condense onto particles or particulates that keep 16 them suspended, or is this just vapor? 17 A I think it's both. And it says essentially 18 all. It doesn't say all. So I mean, clearly a 19 molecule or two -- and I'm exaggerating in the other 20 direction -- could -- could remove from the site. 21 But I agree that essentially all of the materials. 22 no matter what the chlorination level or the dust. 23 are going to drop out very close to the -- in the 24 manufacturing facility itself. 25 Q Have any -- 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046501 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 86 1 A Because they're being emitted at elevated 2 temperatures. And as soon as they get to the 3 ambient temperature, all those processes are going 4 to kick in. 5 Q And we talked about thefilming. Is this 6 where you're going to get that filming, the 7 condensation? 8 A Sure. 9 Q Have any studies been done todetermine the 10 extent to which when condensation occurs, how 11 quickly and over what area? 12 A Not that I'm aware of. 13 Q So -- and you acknowledge that you were 14 going in the other direction when you said a couple, 15 you know, one or two molecules can get off. You 16 really don't know how many might continue moving for 17 a greater distance? 18 A No. But it would be a very small number 19 compared to a pure Aroclor fluid. 20 Q And certainlyPCBs are going tobe more 21 volatile at elevated temperatures? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And that's trueregardless ofhow highly 24 chlorinated they are? 25 A Yes. 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046502 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 87 1 Q Take a look at page 10, if you would, 2 please 3 A (Witness complies.) 4 Q Says, Figures 4 through 7 in the NewFields 5 memorandum all indicate that a PCB mixture with a 6 dominant Aroclor 1268-like pattern not only exists 7 in the soils near the former Monsanto facility, but 8 also in soils elsewhere in Anniston. 9 A Yes, I see that. 10 Q And do you know what that 1268-like pattern 11 is referring to? 12 A I believe I do. 13 Q What -- what -- what do you understand that 14 to be referring to? 15 A In some of the samples that have been taken 16 in the Anniston area, there are a group of congeners 17 in the 8, 9, and 10 level of chlorination that have 18 been seen and reported as Aroclor 1268 in some of 19 those samplings. 20 Q A little further on it says, Therefore, they 21 would not be preferentially transported with 22 distance through the air. 23 What does preferentially transported mean? 24 A I'm sorry. Where are you again? 25 Q I'm sorry. It's in the next paragraph, 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046503 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 88 1 starting with the word therefore. 2 A Okay. All right. I'msorry. What's your 3 question again? 4 Q My question is: What does that mean, 5 preferential transfer - 6 A Well, I mean - 7 Q -- or transport? 8 A -- I'm not the writer, but I assume it means 9 that it's not more likely that the heavier 10 chlorinated materials are -- there's no reason that 11 the heavier chlorinated materials would be 12 transported more efficiently or farther or anything 13 than other lower chlorinated materials. 14 Q Okay. But that's nottosay that Aroclor 15 1268 doesn't -- isn't capable of being transported? 16 A Well, yeah, it doesn't say that. But, I 17 mean, again, because of all the things we've talked 18 about this morning, it's Aroclor 1268. And again, 19 I'm going to say Aroclor 1268-like congeners are 20 going to move very, very slowly compared to other 21 materials. 22 Q Certainly with respect to vapors, but with 23 particulate matter they can move - 24 A Right. 25 Q -- likeothers? 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046504 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 89 1 A Exactly. That's correct. 2 Q And by the way, what Aroclors would the 8, 3 9, and 10 chlorine congeners be located in or be 4 present in? 5 A Well, there's certainly some in Aroclor 6 1260. I don't recall whether there's some in 1254. 7 There probably are small amounts. But anything 8 higher chlorinated than 1260 certainly is going to 9 have some of those congeners. 10 Q Okay. And we do know that 1268 can travel 11 through the air as well? I mean, that was noted on 12 the tree bark. 13 A Well, okay. I understand that that has been 14 reported on tree bark, assuming that those analyses 15 were done correctly and they stand for what they 16 purported to stand for.It appears that there was 17 some mechanism to get them to that tree bark, 18 whether it was by volatilization or dust, yes. 19 Q Okay. I want to turn now to page 16. And 20 there's a discussion in the middle paragraph on this 21 page about an EPA analytical Method 8082. Are you 22 familiar with that? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Do you -- do you believe that that method 25 can be used to identify Aroclor mixtures present in 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046505 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 90 1 the environment; that is, Method 8082? 2 A I believe that that method can be used to 3 report as Aroclor mixtures the presence of PC - 4 certain PCB congener -- certain PCB mixtures in the 5 environment. It is -- again, I think we discussed 6 it's -- the computer is looking at the sample, the 7 results of the analysis, and saying it looks more 8 like this than it does any of the other Aroclors. 9 So it certainly reports them out as Aroclors. So it 10 certainly reports them out as Aroclors, but it is 11 not identifying them or saying they are that 12 Aroclor. 13 Q And in fact the last sentence here says, The 14 identification of a particular Aroclor on 15 chromatogram is an analytical tool, not a true 16 identification. 17 A I agree with that statement. I'm not sure I 18 would use those words, but I agree with the import, 19 the impact, of that statement. 20 Q And in fact this is the same technique that 21 Monsanto has used in identifying Aroclors in the 22 Anniston area, true? 23 A For some of their samples, yes. 24 Q Okay. Well, I mean, are there -- are there 25 other techniques that have been used besides this 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046506 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 91 1 methodology? 2 A There's been some congener -- this is not 3 congener-specific analysis. 4 Q What congener specific -5 A I mean, it's not -- well, it is a 6 congener-specific analysis. I don't want to say 7 that. It is -- it's not as congener specific as 8 some others, but it's -- it does do a fairly good 9 job of separating. But it's -- but the point is 10 that the results are not reported by congener. They 11 are reported by Aroclor. 12 Q Right. What more specific-congener analysis 13 has been done by Monsanto or Solucia in Anniston? 14 A Well, my -- I'm not sure. My understanding 15 is there have been some that just report what the 16 particular levels of the congeners are. So, for 17 instance, it's so much 125; it's so much 137; it's 18 so much 196. Rather than trying to characterize it 19 as an Aroclor. Because these things out in the 20 environment -- and we're back to weathering. 21 They're no longer in general Aroclors, unless 22 they're recently emitted. They're not Aroclors. 23 They're the result of a complex longtime effect of 24 weathering on these materials. And they look like 25 something, but that doesn't mean they are that 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046507 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 92 1 thing. 2 Q Right. They're just a mixture of some 3 congeners? 4 A Right. And they look more like one Aroclor 5 than another. That's all the computer is looking to 6 say. It looks more like this than itdoes that. 7 Q And then we have to apply our judgment with 8 respect to what we know about a specific situation 9 and the AB example that you gave later in order to 10 get to any kind of a source supposition? 11 A If that's what you're trying to do, yes. I 12 mean, in general -- I know I'm not supposed to 13 answer questions that weren't asked. In general the 14 purpose of all these analyses was to measure the 15 total amount of PCBs were there, not to identify 16 which Aroclors were there. So that's why that 17 method was used. It was used to get a total PCB 18 count, and just that's how the method reports it 19 out. 20 Q If you would turn to page 19 of this Exhibit 21 2. And up at the top of the page, we have some 22 historic Anniston Aroclor production percentages of 23 the various Aroclors. 24 Do you know whether that's accurate or not? 25 Have you ever looked atthat? 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046508 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 93 1 A It roughly comports with my understanding. 2 but I haven't necessarily looked at it nor compared 3 it to the source materials to see if it's true or 4 not. It makes sense. 5 Q Okay. And then if you'll look at what I've 6 highlighted here in that paragraph beginning in the 7 middle of the paragraph, Even accounting for severe 8 weathering that could have eliminated lower 9 chlorinated PCB homologues, it is not physically, 10 chemically, and biologically feasible for selective 11 weathering of the higher concentration Aroclor 1254 12 and 1260 components to be less dominant than Aroclor 13 1268. Instead profiles heavily weighted with PCBs 14 that resemble Aroclor 1268 are indicative of a 15 specific source not related to emissions from the 16 ongoing manufacturing process that occurred during 17 approximately 44 years of production. 18 Now, what does it mean when we talk about it 19 is not physically, chemically, or biologically 20 feasible for selective weathering of the 1254 and 21 1260 to be less dominant than 1268? 22 A Well, I think it goes back again to an 23 earlier discussion we had that -- and I think 24 specifically I was asked could Aroclor 1254 weather 25 to 1268. And I think -- or to something that looks 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046509 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 94 1 like Aroclor 1268. And I think the answer is no 2 because by the time you get up to 54 and 60, the 3 primary dominant congeners in those mixtures are 4 going to stay put, too. You're not -- you're not 5 going to get rid of them. You're not going to push 6 them down so far that what looks like 1268 pops up. 7 Q So 1254, 1260, and 1268 are going to remain 8 looking like 1254, 1260, and 1268? 9 A Pretty much so, yes. I think that's pretty 10 consistent with what's been seen throughout the 11 world. 12 Q This letter also, because we saw that at the 13 top of this page you have the listing of production 14 over time, kind of makes the assumption that 15 concentrations in the environment would be roughly 16 proportional to what was actually produced at the 17 Anniston plant. Do you agree that that's the case? 18 MR. MERRILL: I object to the form of the 19 question. I'm not sure it adequately characterizes 20 what the letter says. 21 Q (By Mr. Schick) Let me ask you this. We're 22 looking at the top of page 19 of Exhibit 2, Aroclor 23 production over time. Is it your view that what is 24 found in the environment should look similar in 25 terms of percentages in Anniston to what was 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046510 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 95 1 actually produced at the plant? 2 A No. 3 Q Okay. And that'sbecause we've got 4 weathering? 5 A That's correct. 6 Q And so we wouldexpect to see, from the 7 Monsanto plant itself, a lot more of the 1254, 1260, 8 and 1268 than was actually produced at the plant? 9 A More of 1254 and 1260 possibly. Again, I 10 think the 1268 question goes back to what we 11 answered before. I don't think you're going to see 12 that pushed up for two reasons. 13 Number one, it was present at very low 14 levels anyway, apparently based on this chart. And 15 No. 2, the 54s and 60s aren't going to change enough 16 to make that any kind of a predominant congener mix. 17 So I would think they're going to look mostly like 18 somewhere in the 48 to 54 to 60 range which is what 19 you see everywhere else in the environment 20 throughout the country and the world really, because 21 it's kind of an averaging process. 22 Q If you take a look at page 21 of Exhibit 2, 23 a discussion goes on about, NewFields argues that 24 there was a large amount of PCB losses to the 25 atmosphere. And then the reply is, This statement 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046511 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 96 1 is erroneous. Subsequent calculations are 2 erroneous. And then the sentence reads, The error 3 comes from a memo dated January 18, 1971, from a 4 retired employee of former Monsanto, Mr. L.G. (sic) 5 Wright. 6 Are you familiar with Mr. Wright's 7 calculation and what he did showing that PCB 8 concentrations werepresent in the air near the PCB 9 production process? 10 A I've certainty seen it. I know what you're 11 talking about. I don't remember the details. 12 Q But you wouldn't disagree with the fact that 13 PCBs in the air can remain suspended for some 14 certain -- some length of time under certain 15 circumstances? 16 A Some small amounts at the points where these 17 measurements were takenpossibly would nothave 18 condensed immediately and could be moved. It's -- I 19 don't know what the amounts were. And I don't -- I 20 don't know really -- this is -- obviously this is 21 based on a NewField statement, and I don't remember 22 the context under which they made that statement. 23 But I don't think there would be -- to the 24 extent you're talking about atmosphere, meaning off 25 the plant site, I think that large -- it is not 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046512 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 97 1 possible that large amounts of PCBs would be 2 contributed to the atmosphere based on those -3 those measurements, again, because they're right 4 at -- as I recall, they're right at leaks or source 5 emissions to the atmosphere in a heated 6 manufacturing process, and those levels are not 7 going to be maintained for any distance whatsoever 8 away from that manufacturing process. 9 Q And, again, it's hard for you and for me to 10 discuss intelligently the quantification because we 11 don't know what we're starting with? 12 A Absolutely. You're absolutely correct. 13 Q We don't know what our temperatures are. We 14 don't know what our wind speeds are. And those are 15 all factors that go into this, right? 16 A I would agree with that. 17 Q But we do know, as we discussed earlier, 18 that once vaporized you've got the condensation 19 possibility that's going to happen at some point, 20 and you also have the possibility either before or 21 at condensation attachment to particulate that may 22 spread that molecule beyond the plant site? 23 A Yeah. In the context of these particular 24 measurements, I think the particulate movement is 25 less likely, I mean, because you're right in the 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046513 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 98 1 process. I don't think there's going to be a lot of 2 particulates there. But to the -- you know, again, 3 to the extent that they deposit on soils and were 4 later moved by wind, some amount is possible. 5 Q Do you know about any studies done over time 6 about the amount of particulate matter in the air 7 around Anniston and in particular the Monsanto 8 plant? 9 A Not specifically. Although -- well, I don't 10 know. I think when some of the air measurements 11 were done, they actually tried to discriminate 12 between PCBs on particulates and PCBs in air. But 13 that discrimination is -- is questionable at best. 14 So I don't know whether anybody tried to quantitate 15 the particulates at that time or not. 16 Q You recall that you gave an affidavit -17 you've given several affidavits. You gave an 18 affidavit, though, in connection with Solucia's 19 104(e) response? 20 A Yes . 21 (Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 3 22 marked for identification.) 23 Q Let me show you a copy of if. I've marked 24 it as Exhibit 3 to your deposition. 25 A So it was an exhibit? It wasn't actually an 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046514 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 99 1 affidavit in the -2 Q Yeah, it was an exhibit to the response. 3 A -- in the response? It was an exhibit to 4 the response. Yes, I'm familiar with this 5 affidavit. 6 Q Okay. And I want to direct your attention 7 to page 23, paragraph 37. 8 A Okay. 9 Q And the affidavit that you provided 10 described some air sampling that was conducted by 11 Solucia, true? 12 A Yes . 13 Q And this particular paragraph, No. 37, 14 explains that PCBs were detected in the ambient air 15 at the Mars Hill Missionary Baptist Church? 16 A Yes . 17 Q Do you know; from having been there before, 18 where is the Mars Hill church located? 19 A It's properties just east of Monsanto. 20 Q Okay. And certainly you agree that the 21 levels that were identified there in 1998 or 1999 22 were certainty higher than background, true? 23 A Yeah. I could say 80 nanograms per cubic 24 meter is higher than background, yes. 25 Q Okay. So -- so in this -- this is an 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046515 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 100 1 instance we have in which PCBs can be present in 2 ambient air, correct? 3 A Yes . 4 Q And would you say that the likely source of 5 those PCBs was the Monsanto plant itself, just west, 6 I guess, of the Mars Hill's Missionary Church? 7 A You mean at the time the measurements were 8 taken? 9 Q Yes, sir. 10 A No. I would think it's probably surface 11 interchange and contaminated soils in the area of 12 that particular church. 13 Q So the PCBs might have come from Monsanto 14 years earlier, but they were deposited in soils and 15 picked up by the atmosphere, and that's what's being 16 read in '98 or '99? 17 MR. MERRILL: I'll object to the form of the 18 question. 19 Q (By Mr. Schick) Is that what you meant? 20 A Basically, yes. 21 Q Okay. How -- when I say basically, my 22 wife -23 A Well -- 24 Q -- always says -25 A I'm sorry. 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046516 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 101 1 Q -- what did I get wrong about that? 2 A Yes, yes. I'm sorry. I shouldn't have said 3 that. You're absolutely correct. That is correct. 4 That is my -- my understanding of that level would 5 have been that it's from PCBs that were in the soils 6 in the general area of the church and were not being 7 wafted over from the existing Monsanto facility in 8 that time frame. 9 Q Sure. Because this is 20 years after 10 production has ceased, right? 11 A Yes. Well, almost 30, yes. 12 Q Right. Do you know whether the air sampling 13 that was done there made any attempt to analyze 14 specific congeners or homologues? 15 A I'm 99.9 percent sure it was reported as 16 homologues. If this is our -- I don't remember 17 whether this is our sampling or -18 Q I think it says -19 A -- the plaintiffs' sampling. 20 Q I'm sorry. It says, The results of air 21 sampling -22 A Conducted by Solutia. 23 Q -- conducted by Solutia. 24 A Okay. So in that case the reports were 25 reported by homologues. So there would have been a 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046517 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 102 1 congener-specific analysis that was reported after 2 the congeners were grouped into homologues. So, 3 yes, it was reported by homologues. 4 Q So when you refer to an Aroclor here in the 5 paragraph, you're just guessing -- you're just 6 saying it most resembles or the homologue mixture 7 most resembles Aroclor 1242? 8 A No. All I'm saying is the OSHA PEL for PCBs 9 of lower chlorinated materials is based on Aroclor 10 1242, and that's what that PEL is. 11 Q I'm sorry. I misread it. 12 Do you know where the results are reported? 13 A Do I know where the results are reported? 14 Q Yeah. The homologue results, because 15 they're not reported in this paragraph. 16 A Well, they're reported in a -- in one of a 17 number of reports from the company that was doing 18 the air analyses for Monsanto in that time frame. 19 Q Which one; do you know? 20 A ENSR, I would guess, E-N-S-R, all caps. 21 Would be my guess they were the ones doing it. 22 Q Okay. 23 (Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 4 24 marked for identification.) 25 Q (By Mr. Schick) Speaking of which, let me 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046518 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 103 1 show you Exhibit 4 to your deposition which is from 2 ENSR dated July of 2004. 3 A Okay. 4 Q You've seen this before, have you not? 5 A I'm not sure whether I have or not. 6 Q Oh, is that right? 7 A This was after my retirement, and I may or 8 may not have seen it. So I don't know. 9 Q Okay. By the way, meant to ask you. 10 Forgot . What did you do to get ready for your 11 deposition here today? 12 A A conversation with Charlie on just 13 general -- make sure I understood what the 14 parameters of my presentation were and possible 15 areas for -- for questioning. 16 Q Did you review anything, look at any 17 documents, pick up anything? 18 A I skimmed my old depositions in this case. 19 And I didn't -- I clearly didn't read them. I just 20 leafed through them to see if anything jumped off 21 the page. And then I did review some -- some 22 depositions, parts of depositions, from other -23 Jerry Brown and others. 24 Q Okay. That's it? 25 A I think I did -- I think there was one 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046519 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 104 1 analytical method that -- on measurements of PCBs in 2 air that Charlie asked me to take a look at. 3 Q Which one was that? 4 A It was an old method from -- I don't even 5 know when it was. It was undated. So, I mean -6 but it was a very old method for measuring Aroclors 7 in air that really wasn't measuring Aroclors in air. 8 It was measuring chloride. So I just looked at 9 that. He thought that might come up. 10 Q Okay. Was that it? 11 A Yeah, that was it. 12 Q Okay. Did you talk to anybody other than 13 Charlie or any other lawyer for Solucia -14 A No. 15 Q -- in getting ready for your deposition? 16 A I'm sorry. No. 17 Q Okay. So let me ask you to turn to page 4-9 18 of this report. 19 A Okay. 20 Q This comes under a heading Identification of 21 PCB Source Locations; do you see that? 22 A I do. 23 Q And it says, In addition to off-site 24 influences, the data also suggest influence from 25 onsite PCB source areas. During one session -- and 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046520 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 105 1 they reference November 17, 2003 -- two monitors 2 downwind of the facility showed the highest PCB 3 concentrations. A second session, which is 4 September 10, 2003, showed PCB concentrations 5 increasing across the plant along the 6 upwind/downwind vector. 7 Do you agree that the Solucia facility 8 remains an ongoing source of PCBs to the atmosphere, 9 even as of 2003? 10 A Well, again, I don't -- I don't know where 11 these samplers were located. So I don't know 12 whether they're onsite or offsite. And again, so 13 apparently wherever these were based on this 14 paragraph, which says what it says, that there were 15 evidences of higher levels of PCBs consistent with 16 that being -- you know, being a source on those 17 particular days. 18 Q And there can certainly be a source of PCBs 19 on the -- on the Monsanto property there in Anniston 20 if PCBs remain in any of the surface soils and get 21 picked up by -- by wind? 22 A Yeah. Again, that's a reasonable -- I don't 23 know the levels. I don't know what we're talking 24 about here. So I don't know whether the question of 25 significance comes into it. But based on -- on this 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046521 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 106 1 particular paragraph, I would say that that's a fair 2 inference. 3 Q Okay. And it would also be a fair 4 inference, would it not, that to the extent there is 5 any sign of some PCBs being generated in the 6 downwind concentrations, as they are there, those 7 concentrations would have been heavier when 8 production was actually ongoing -9 MR. MERRILL: Object to the form of the 10 question. 11 Q (By Mr. Schick) -- back in the '60s? 12 MR. MERRILL: Object to the form of the 13 question. 14 A Yeah, I -- I was going to give you a smart 15 answer. I won't. 16 Q (By Mr. Schick) More likely than not? 17 A It's possible, yeah. We don't know, but... 18 Q But it's certainly more likely than not that 19 they would have been? 20 A Yeah. But, again, I don't know where these 21 samplers were, whether they were places that were 22 right next to where the facility used to be or 23 whether they're, you know, on the other side of 24 Anniston. I just don't know. So it's hard to say 25 what impact that would have off the plant site. I 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046522 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 107 1 mean, clearly if you're measuring PCBs in the air at 2 the site of manufacture, they're going to be higher 3 levels than other places. So I just don't know the 4 answer. 5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Excuse me, Counselor. We 6 have four minutes of tape. 7 Q (By Mr. Schick) Have you ever estimated 8 fugitive air emissions from an industrial process? 9 A Me personally? 10 Q Yes, sir. 11 A No. 12 Q We talked about the Hermanson tree bark 13 report earlier. And you said -- you told me what 14 you understood it to reflect and then told me that 15 there were -- assuming analytical something or other 16 and something else -- the record will reflect what 17 you intelligently said as opposed to my dim 18 recollection. 19 A That's fine. 20 Q And I just wanted to follow up with that. 21 (Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 5 22 marked for identification.) 23 Q (By Mr. Schick) This is Exhibit 5 to the 24 deposition. And you see right there in the -- in 25 the abstract the last sentence says, We believe that 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046523 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 108 1 high-temperature Montar disposal released high 2 molecular mass PCBs into the gas phase which were 3 dissolved into older tree bark lipids. 4 And that was your understanding of this 5 report, correct? We talked about how would-- how 6 would PCBs get to tree bark 5 milesdownstream, and 7 you mentioned on dust particulates or vapor phase, I 8 thought. 9 A Okay. I'm not sure how that relates to the 10 sentence you just read, but... 11 Q Okay. Well - 12 A My understanding is that the conclusion that 13 that sentence is based on are trees that were 14 basically on the landfill. 15 Q Okay. But he also took a look at trees down 16 like 5 miles away; you know that? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And you know that that is -- that he did 19 identify PCBs in tree bark 5 miles away from the 20 plant? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Now I need to know what criticisms you have 23 of the analytical method he used or the conclusions 24 he drew, if you have any. 25 A I don't know that -- I don't know that those 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046524 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 109 1 relates to the procedure. There are several things. 2 Number one, I never seen -- I have never 3 seen any analytical method validation from his -4 his laboratory that he uses. Maybe it exists, but I 5 haven't seen it. 6 Number two, a lot of his results are based 7 on lipid-based analyses of tree bark and the lipid 8 levels -- do you want me to stop? The lipid levels 9 in tree bark are vanishingly small so there's a huge 10 room for error there. I'm not necessarily 11 guestioning whether PCBs were measured in that -- on 12 that tree bark. But it's possible that you could go 13 outside this building and find PCBs on tree bark. 14 So it's really the interpretation of the results. 15 And for this -- I got to say this: The 16 sentence you have highlighted, I think, is a total 17 misunderstanding on his part on how Montars are 18 disposed. 19 MR. SCHICK: Okay. And we'll come -- when 20 we get back on the record, we'll talk a little bit 21 about Montars. Thank you. 22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're off record at 23 11:19. This ends tape two. 24 (Off the record.) 25 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on record at 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046525 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 110 1 11:28. This begins tape three of the deposition of 2 Dr. Robert Nelson. 3 MR. SCHICK: Dr. Kaley. 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Excuse me. 5 Q (By Mr. Schick) That's okay. Dr. Kaley, 6 when we took our break, we were looking at Exhibit 5 7 of your deposition, this report from Dr. Hermanson 8 and Johnson and this sentence you pointed out to me 9 that I actually highlighted, We believe that 10 high-temperature Montar disposal released high 11 molecular mass PCBs into the gas phase which were 12 dissolved into older tree bark lipids. And you said 13 you thought he didn't understand the Montar disposal 14 method. 15 Would you tell me what you mean by that? 16 A Okay. I've -17 MR. MERRILL: I'm going to object to the 18 question only to the extent that it is really 19 testimony that's beyond the scope of the 30 (b)6 20 designation. And he may certainly go ahead and 21 answer it, but the answer is not necessarily being 22 offered as 30 (b)6 testimony. 23 MR. SCHICK: Fair enough. 24 A All right. I've heard Dr. Hermanson speak a 25 number of times and in addition have read his 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046526 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 111 1 publications, and my understanding is that when he 2 wrote this, he believed that PCB still bottoms were 3 trucked up to the landfill in a hot state and dumped 4 out of those containers into the landfill and that 5 was releasing these high molecular mass PCBs. 6 And number one, I've never seen anything 7 which substantiate that method of disposing of PCB 8 still bottoms. And number two, it's my 9 understanding, I think at least, that even 10 Dr. Hermanson has recognized that his original 11 assumptions were not correct. 12 Q (By Mr. Schick) Okay. So we'll come back 13 to Montars in a second, but whatever he found in 14 those tree barks, you're saying, didn't come from 15 Montars. It came from some other vaporization or 16 particulate methodology or mechanism? 17 A To the extent that they were correctly 18 identified in there, yes, I agree with that. 19 Q All right. Now let's talk about Montars a 20 minute. There -- as I understand it, there are at 21 least 10 Montars. Maybe there are a whole bunch 22 more. And you've spoken in other depositions about 23 the nonchlorinated Montars, the still bottoms that 24 would come from the biphenyl process, the benzene 25 through the lead pot process making biphenyls. 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046527 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 112 1 And as I understand it, the still bottoms or 2 Montars from that process were -- were referred to 3 as Montars 9 and 10? 4 MR. MERRILL: I'm going to object to the 5 form of the question, again for the -- for the same 6 reason. Can I have a running objection to the 7 questions on Montars? 8 MR. SCHICK: Absolutely. But what I do 9 intend to get to, though, Charlie, and what I want 10 to be asking Dr. Kaley about is the possibility of 11 emissions either through air, water, soil of Montars 12 1 through 8. 13 MR. MERRILL: I figured you might bring it 14 around. And I wouldn't -15 MR. SCHICK: Right. 16 MR. MERRILL: -- object to it when you get 17 into these topics. But I didn't -- since I don't 18 know where you're going, that's why I wanted to -19 MR. SCHICK: Fair enough. 20 MR. MERRILL: -- raise that objection. 21 MR. SCHICK: Fair enough. That's okay. 22 A All right. As I sit here today, I don't 23 know which were which. So if you know you're right 24 and we can assume that you're right, I'll try to 25 answer your questions. But I don't -- without 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046528 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 113 1 seeing a list of Montars and what their source was, 2 I'm uncomfortable talking about individual Montars. 3 Q (By Mr. Schick) Fair enough. There were 4 Montars, regardless of numeric designation, that 5 came about in the chlorination process that were the 6 still bottoms after the chlorination process, true? 7 A That is true. 8 Q Okay. And I don't believe you've been asked 9 this before, and that's why it was important to me 10 to ask you this. What was the process for disposing 11 of the Montars generated in the chlorination 12 process; that is, Montars that would contain 13 chlorinated biphenyls? 14 A My understanding is that they were drummed 15 at the site of the distillation columns and then 16 transported to the landfill. 17 Q In the drums? 18 A In the drums. In sealed drums. 19 Q And not poured out into the landfill? 20 A That's correct. 21 Q Now, is it also correct that when those 22 Montars were poured into the open drums at the 23 facility, that they were at 300 degrees or so? 24 A I don't know the temperatures. If you -- if 25 you eventually have a source that says that's the 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046529 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 114 1 temperature, I'm not going to disagree with that. I 2 don't know the temperature. 3 Q Do you know that in the process they would 4 have been poured out while still hot? 5 A Oh, they were hot. I'm not arguing whether 6 they were hot or not. 7 Q And is it also a fair description of the 8 process that the drums would not have been covered 9 until after they had cooled somewhat? 10 A I don't know. 11 Q You just don't know the answer to that? 12 A I just don't know. 13 Q All right. Now, is it -- do you -- well, if 14 Montars from the chlorinated biphenyl process were 15 placed in drums at a higher temperature well above 16 ambient, there would have been vaporization taking 17 place off those -- off the tops of those Montars, 18 true? 19 A To some extent or another, yes. 20 Q And we'd have the same kind of vaporization 21 going there that we have from any other process 22 around the plant as we've discussed, true? 23 MR. MERRILL: I'm going to object to the 24 form of the question. 25 A I'm not sure what you mean. But, I mean, 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046530 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 115 1 vaporization is vaporization. So, I mean, to the 2 extent we've talked about the higher chlorinated 3 materials are going to drop out faster and condense 4 faster are much less likely to be transported any 5 considerable distance, yes. 6 Q (By Mr. Schick) Okay. And then, of course, 7 after landfilling, if those -- if the integrity of 8 those drums was somehow compromised, water could 9 pick up those Montars and they could be released in 10 the environment, true? 11 A I don't believe that could occur at a 12 measurable -- those things are solids. I mean, 13 they're basically a solid mass. So to the extent 14 that any water -- you know, assuming they were 15 punctured, which obviously I don't have any evidence 16 they ever were, I don't think very much would - 17 measurable amounts would be picked up. 18 Q Okay. In the west -- it was the west 19 landfill that Alabama Power had for a while, right? 20 A That's correct. 21 Q And didn't they do some gradingand digging 22 at some point? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And they punctured some drums inthe process 25 of doing all that, didn't they? 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046531 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 116 1 A I'm not -- I don't recall whether they 2 punctured drums or whether just stumbled on some 3 basically semisolid materials. I don't recall 4 whether it was a drum puncture or not. I don't -5 as I sit here, I don't think it was. But clearly 6 they did by one mechanism or another uncover some 7 semisolid materials. 8 (Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 6 9 marked for identification.) 10 Q (By Mr. Schick) Dr. Kaley, let me show you 11 what I've marked as Exhibit 6 to your deposition, 12 and so you know, this comes from Exhibit 14 which 13 was the EPA Exhibit No. 14; and this is just one 14 page from the document that I pulled out. But it 15 talks about Aroclor collection and disposal of 16 chlorinated Montar, amount of wastes, 1971, and it 17 shows Montar 1 million pounds per year, Montar 1; 18 Montar 5, 10 million pounds per year. 19 Do you know one way or another whether those 20 look to be accurate figures? 21 A No. 22 MR. MERRILL: And, again, I'm going to 23 object to the -- this line of questioning as being 24 outside the scope of the designation. 25 A And I have no idea. 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046532 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 117 1 Q (By Mr. Schick) Assuming that any of those 2 solid Montars did find their way into the 3 environment in waterways or in sediments, it would 4 certainly be possible for them tobe transported in 5 the same distances as any otherPCB once entrapped 6 in sediment, true? 7 MR. MERRILL: I'm going to object to the 8 form of the question. 9 A All right. That's a mighty big assumption, 10 because as I said, the physical state of those 11 Montars is not conducive to them either themselves 12 breaking up into small particles or any measurable 13 amount of chlorinated material somehow being 14 separated on a molecular basis and re-adsorbing to 15 soil. So having said that, if what I consider to be 16 either of those very unlikely occurrences occurred, 17 then they would be moved, yes. 18 Q Okay. By the way, I had understood that 19 there was a clay-like material that was used to 20 filter PCBs after -- in the chlorination process 21 after the reaction of the biphenyl with chlorine 22 under heat and, I think, the presence of a catalyst. 23 What happened to that clay that was used? 24 A My understanding is it was drummed and 25 landfilled. 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046533 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 118 1 Q Okay. In the same way as Montars? 2 A Well, the same ultimate outcome, not the 3 same way. But yes. 4 Q Sure. Because it wouldn't be hot? 5 A Right. 6 Q And that clay would have contained PCBs, 7 true? 8 A Yes . 9 Q And it's your understanding that was also 10 placed in drums and taken to the landfill? 11 A Yes . 12 Q Do you have any idea what kind of volume 13 we' re talking about of that clay? 14 A Not really. 15 Q Would it be in the same mag -- order of 16 magnitude as the Montars? 17 A I have no idea. 18 Q Okay. 19 (Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 7 20 marked for identification.) 21 Q (By Mr. Schick) Exhibit 7 to your 22 deposition is -- I'm sorry. 23 A I'm sorry. I just didn't reach for it. No, 24 that's fine. 25 Q -- a study that was done in a different 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046534 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 119 1 location, but what I want to ask you about is on 2 page 1231 of this document. 3 A Okay. 4 Q And I believe this was done of the Sauget 5 facility. You're familiar with the Sauget 6 facility -7 A Yes. 8 Q -- of Monsanto's? 9 A Yes. 10 Q It says, Referring again to Table 1, the 11 higher PCB concentrations are apparently at points 12 closer to the facility with concentrations generally 13 decreasing with increased distance. 14 That's your belief with respect to airborne 15 transport of PCBs, true; that it's -- the 16 concentrations decrease with increased distance? 17 A Yeah. That -- that comports with my 18 understanding of how air transport would occur, yes. 19 Q The next sentence, This distribution 20 suggests airborne transport of the PCBs, including 21 decachlorobiphenyl, from the manufacturing facility, 22 with subsequent deposition onto the surrounding 23 landscape. 24 Do you have any reason to disagree with that 25 conclusion? 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046535 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 120 1 A The only reason I would disagree with that 2 conclusion is that decachlorobiphenyl or Aroclor 3 1268 weren't manufactured at Sauget after about 4 1958 . So I doubt -- I would really question the 5 results with regard to decachlorobiphenyl. 6 Q Okay. Do you know who -7 A In fact, I think it's 1948 actually. 8 Q Do you know who did this study? 9 A No. I'm not -- I'm embarrassed to say I'm 10 not sure I've ever seen this study. 11 Q Okay. Okay. Fair enough. 12 A Can I have a copy to take with me? 13 Q Sure. Yeah, I'll give you -- I'll give you 14 mine. 15 On the preceding page, here's this table 16 that they referred to. 17 A Yes . 18 Q Oh, you know, it says of the --no. It's 19 the same place, right. Table 1 lists distance from 20 the facility in meters, and then it has Aroclor 21 1242, 1260, decachlorobiphenyl, then total PCBs. 22 A Yeah. 23 Q And I just -- the way I read this: It 24 showed that there were 1.6 decachlorobiphenyls part 25 per million picked up 1050 meters or just over a 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046536 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 121 1 kilometer from the facility. Is that how you would 2 read that? 3 A Yes. But it doesn't say it came from 4 Monsanto. 5 Q Understood. Understood. Although that - 6 A I mean, I just -- like I say, that whole 7 finding doesn't comport with my understanding. And 8 why would it be higher farther away than it was 9 closer? It doesn't -- if you look, the Aroclor 10 12 -- decachlorobiphenyl doesn't fit the pattern of 11 the other Aroclors. For the other Aroclors, the 12 highest are 250 and 400 meters, and here it's, you 13 know, 1050. And I -- that -- that's entirely 14 inconsistent with my understanding of how the whole 15 system works. 16 Q Couldit be that the decachlorobiphenyl 17 attaches itself to particles that somehow wind up 18 being transported by air more? 19 A Why would those particles be transported 20 further than particles with any other Aroclor? 21 Q By the way, you personally haven't ever done 22 any air deposition modeling, I assume? That's not 23 an area of your expertise? 24 A That is a fair assumption. 25 Q Okay. And you haven't actually done any of 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046537 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 122 1 that kind of air modeling? 2 A Not officially no. 3 Q Done it unofficially? 4 A Well, I've thought about it. I haven't done 5 it officially. I haven't plugged it into a model. 6 I thought about what a model ought to look like. 7 Q Okay. But you haven't designed and haven't 8 been asked to design and haven't talked to experts 9 about designing one? 10 A You're correct. 11 (Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 8 12 marked for identification.) 13 Q (By Mr. Schick) Let me hand you what's been 14 marked as Exhibit 8 to your deposition. And this is 15 an old one. Appears to be 1935 diphenyl and 16 chlorinated diphenyl derivatives, diphenyl being 17 just a synonym for biphenyl, true? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And this report talks about Aroclor 20 No. 1269. And the first sentence there says, 21 Aroclor 1269 is the product distilled from 22 chlorinated diphenyl with a chlorine content of 69 23 percent. 24 So we know it's talking about the same kind 25 of percentage we've always talked about with respect 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046538 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 123 1 to PCBs? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Are you familiar with 1269? 4 A I mean, I know that it was manufactured at 5 some low level or another by Swann. I'm not -- I 6 don't think it was ever manufactured by Monsanto. I 7 mean, this is a Swann document. It's not a Monsanto 8 document. 9 Q I see. 10 A I think. 11 Q This is before -12 A Well, it was right at the -- it was right at 13 the cusp when Monsanto was purchasing Swann. So 14 maybe it is a Monsanto document. I don't recall. 15 But it's -- it's basically from the Swann era. I'm 16 not aware that 1269 was ever manufactured by 17 Monsanto, at least after -- much after this time. 18 Q But it may have been manufactured by -- at 19 least at the Anniston facility? I mean, that's what 20 this demonstrates? 21 A Right. 22 Q Perhaps before Monsanto purchased it? 23 A Right. I don't disagree with that. 24 Q Then there's discussion on page -- if you 25 look up at the top right-hand corner, a handwritten 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046539 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 124 1 41. 2 A Okay. 3 Q And it says, The room housing this equipment 4 should be well ventilated both because the stills 5 are hot and as an extra safeguard against dust. 6 Operators in contact with such dust may develop a 7 severe form of dermatitis. 8 And I think you've testified in previous 9 depositions that dermatitis is a known human 10 reaction to contact with PCBs? 11 MR. MERRILL: And, again, I'm going to 12 object to this line of questioning to the extent 13 it's beyond the scope of the 30 (b)6 notice or 14 designation. 15 Q (By Mr. Schick) But did I get that part 16 right? 17 A Generally, yes, it can be. 18 Q Okay. And -- and are you familiar with the 19 fact that the manufacture of 1268 created dust? 20 A 1269? 21 Q I'm sorry. 1269. 22 A Well, to the extent that it says so in this 23 document, yes. 24 Q Okay. 25 A I haveno reason to doubt the document. 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046540 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 125 1 Q And then the next paragraph or the last 2 paragraph there says, Another factor complicating 3 operations is the sudden decomposition that occurs 4 at the end of the distillation. The gas evolved 5 contains large amounts of acid-forming vapors and 6 also some of the Aroclor 1269 as an extremely finely 7 divided dust which is discolored and decidedly acid. 8 Efforts made to collect this dust and rework it have 9 not been successful. Our operations at present are 10 to discharge these decomposition products through an 11 exhauster and into the atmosphere. Such a procedure 12 in a more populous community might create a 13 nuisance. 14 Have you seen this before today? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Are you familiar with this dust and how it 17 was exhausted into the atmosphere? 18 A Not -- nothing over and above what it says 19 here. 20 Q Do you know what volumes of this dust that's 21 referred to in Exhibit No. 8 were discharged into 22 the atmosphere? 23 A No. 24 Q Do you know over what period of time 1269 25 was manufactured? 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046541 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 126 1 A Well, as I said before, I'm not aware of it 2 being manufactured after the date of this document. 3 I don't know when itstopped or started, but I don't 4 know specifically. 5 Q The -- if you turn to the last page of the 6 document, they're talking about what they can do to 7 collect this material. And they say, The material 8 is acid and the fineness of particles approach that 9 of fog particles. 10 And those would certainly be particles that 11 could be picked up by -- by air and sent some 12 distance if we knew more about its weight, etc., 13 true? 14 A That's -- that's a fair inference, yes. 15 Q Do you know anything about a fire occurring 16 in the drumming and flaking Aroclors facility? 17 A Just a little bit. 18 Q What do you know about that? 19 MR. MERRILL: Again, I'm going to object to 20 the question to the extent it's beyond -- and of 21 this line of questioning to the extent it's beyond 22 the scope of the 30(b)6designation. 23 A Not much other than I think it occurred and 24 I think it was just -- I think it was diphenyl. I 25 don't believe it was chlorinated diphenyls. 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046542 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 127 1 Q (By Mr. Schick) Okay. It's your 2 understanding it was die -- it was -- it was not 3 chlorinated? 4 A I don't know what you're looking at, but it 5 seems to me there's a document that says the 6 diphenyl flaking operations. So that's my 7 recollection. 8 Q Similar question. There's been testimony 9 about pumping of Montars into Cleghorn Lake. Do 10 you -- but it may have been with respect to biphenyl 11 Montars. Do you know whether chlorinated Montars 12 were ever deposited in any waterway? 13 A Well, Cleghorn's Lake wasn't really a 14 waterway. Cleghorn's Lake was a disposal pit on the 15 Monsanto Anniston plant site. It was called a lake 16 more as a light-hearted joke than anything else, 17 first place. Second place, my understanding is 18 those were all nonchlorinated Montars. They were 19 from the polyphenol manufacturing process. 20 (Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 9 21 marked for identification.) 22 Q (By Mr. Schick) Let me give you Exhibit 9 23 to your deposition. This is a memorandum from 24 Mr. Papageorge. Do you know Mr. Papageorge? 25 A I do. 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046543 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 128 1 Q And it's dated August 17 of 1970. And he 2 talks about an inspection in Anniston that he did, 3 and he said, I was, however, disappointed that we 4 are still using considerable quantities of sand to 5 keep the floors in the department partially dry. 6 At the bottom of that page, he says, I have 7 concerns regarding the containment of Aroclors from 8 the bulk storage, drumming, tank car and tank truck 9 loading areas. The amount of Aroclor on the 10 drumming area floor appeared excessive and could 11 overload the small sump which is in the present 12 drainage channel from this area. 13 My question to you is: Does this 14 demonstrate another way in which Aroclors could 15 either find their way into a waterway or onto soil 16 and the atmosphere? 17 A Well, I'm not -- again, with atmosphere, I 18 don't think it would be of a significant -- because 19 it's basically ambient temperatures, I don't think 20 there would be a significant contribution. But my 21 understanding of the operation is that materials on 22 the floor would eventuallymake their way to one of 23 the dischargers of the plant andprobably be 24 discharged through the same process that the -- the 25 HC1 waste would discharge. 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046544 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 129 1 Q Are you talking about discharged into 2 wastewater area? 3 A Well, discharged into probably -- my 4 understanding would be probably into the -- the 01 5 discharge into the creeks eventually. 6 Q Okay. 7 A I don't know that. But, again, I don't know 8 that for sure. I don't know where these areas are 9 specifically, but that's -- that would be my 10 understanding. 11 Q Okay. By the way, how does an acidic 12 condition affect weathering? 13 A Probably doesn't. I mean, PCBs are 14 generally resistant to acid. The acidity in this 15 process comes from the hydrochloric acid that's 16 generated during the manufacturing process. 17 Q Which you then solve as muriatic acid? 18 A Right, yeah. The PCBs generally are not 19 susceptible to any kind of change by acids. 20 (Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 10 21 marked for identification.) 22 Q (By Mr. Schick) Let me show you what I 23 marked as Exhibit 10 to your deposition. And if you 24 could, look at the page numbered 3 at the bottom. 25 It's just the third page there. 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046545 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 130 1 A Okay. 2 Q And this is just a summary and it says, The 3 Aroclor vapor concentration was found to vary widely 4 depending on several factors. 5 And then it says, The actual Aroclor vapor 6 concentrations varied from .35 milligrams per cubic 7 meter to about 5 milligrams per cubic meter under 8 the most severe conditions. 9 Then the next paragraph says, It was found, 10 however, that the Aroclor vapor concentration in the 11 air at the sample points is seldom below the .5 to 12 1.0 milligrams per cubic meter level, which is the 13 maximum tolerable concentrations, and often is as 14 high as 3 to 5 milligrams per cubic meter. 15 Those are also concentrations in the air 16 that can wind up being dispersed beyond the plant 17 facility itself, true? 18 A Well, again, there -- as I can recall this 19 document -- and I congratulate mycounsel for - 20 this is the one I mentionedearlier that hethought 21 might come up. 22 Q Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. It's always 23 nice to get one right. 24 A That's right. It's my understanding that, 25 again, like some of the other measurements, these 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046546 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 131 1 are right at positions within the manufacturing 2 process itself. So all those processes that we 3 talked about are going to occur. You know, they're 4 at elevated temperature. It's going to condense. 5 But that said, yes, I think it is a potential source 6 of some level of PCBs of unknown concentration 7 leaving the plant site. 8 Q And -- and certainly if that were in a part 9 of the facility that was open to the environment, if 10 it just had a roof, didn't have sides, even a 11 greater likelihood of being dispersed into the 12 atmosphere, true? 13 A Assuming there was some sort of wind blowing 14 or something, yes. 15 Again, if I may, this is the -- this method 16 I don't think is necessarily reliable for PCBs 17 because it's a very old method which isn't actually 18 measuring PCBs in the sense that we understand it. 19 It's basically degrading the PCBs into chlorine and 20 measuring the chlorine. So any chlorinated material 21 present, HC1 or anything present in those samples, 22 would give a positive result. So they have to be 23 taken with a grain of salt, but I'm not going to 24 argue that it doesn't represent some atmospheric 25 presence of PCBs. 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046547 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 132 1 (Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 11 2 marked for identification.) 3 Q Exhibit No. 11 to your deposition is a 4 September 1970 memo. The subject is, Aroclor Losses 5 to the Atmosphere at the HC1 Scrubber Jet. And 6 there is a reading of 64.9 pounds per day of PCB 7 passes the HC1 knockout tank. 8 Do you see that? 9 A I do. 10 Q And then it talks about, Assuming 100 11 percent contact at the jets, .47 pounds per hour or 12 11.84 per day of PCB is sewered with the remaining 13 .11 pounds per year or 2.4 pounds per day -- that 14 was .11 pounds per hour or 2.6 pounds per day being 15 lost to the atmosphere. Poor efficiency at the jets 16 increases the loss of PCB to the atmosphere 17 considerably. 18 Again, this is an indication of PCBs that 19 can wind up in the atmosphere, true? 20 A Yes. But, again, at the site of 21 manufacture. No indication of how far they're 22 moving away. But, yes, there's clearly -- it 23 clearly says PCBs are being discharged to the 24 atmosphere. 25 Q Sure. And I guess all I'm just talking 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046548 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 133 1 about here -- this is all being thrown up into the 2 air, and then we go, as you point out, to our what 3 are the congeners, how heavy are they, how long do 4 they stay vaporized, how far do they go, true? 5 A Correct, yes. 6 Q Okay. 7 A Thank you. 8 (Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 12 9 marked for identification.) 10 Q (By Mr. Schick) Exhibit No. 12 to your 11 deposition is the EPA's preliminary assessment of 12 PCB air emissions, and I just wanted to go through 13 kind of a listing that they have. And it's -14 you've got to flip through this. It's page 3 of 15 Exhibit -- or Attachment A, I think. So if you flip 16 through, the third page says Attachment A. Go to 17 three pages beyond that. 18 A Got you. 19 Q And it has this listing. Do you see that? 20 A Yes, I do. 21 Q And these purport to be, if you look, what 22 the EPA refers to as a good summary of important 23 factors for understanding the atmospheric transport 24 of PCBs. Number one, atmospheric transport is a key 25 mechanism for the global dispersion of PCBs. 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046549 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 134 1 And we've talked about that, true? 2 A Yes . 3 Q The second, Lower chlorinated congeners tend 4 to be in the gas phase and therefore dominate in the 5 atmosphere while heavier congeners adsorb to 6 particulates. 7 True or not true? Would you qualify that? 8 A Well, I think we discussed this in some 9 detail 10 Q Yeah. 11 A I don't think they -- they necessarily 12 preferentially adsorb the particulates -13 Q Right. 14 A -- but the lower chlorinated come off those 15 particulates more readily. So I think, yeah, 16 that's -- 17 Q And the truth is lower chlorinated congeners 18 don' t remain forever in the gas phase. At some 19 point they're going to condense, and they can also 20 adsorb to particulate? 21 A Well, but there's a continual exchange. 22 There' s a -- it's an ongoing exchange that continues 23 to affect the levels, yes. 24 Q Okay. The next -- next point says, During 25 transport, atmospheric PCBs can be deposited to soil 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046550 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 135 1 and water via wet deposition -- that is, rain or 2 snow -- dry deposition, settling of particles with 3 PCBs adsorbed, or gasabsorption. 4 You agree with that? 5 A Gas absorption. I'm not sure what gas 6 absorption means, but I'll agree with the first two. 7 Q Okay. Can PCBs be absorbed into water 8 molecules picked up and deposited as rain somewhere 9 down the road? 10 A Well, I think that's what the first part of 11 that third bullet says. I mean, it's not really 12 that they're - 13 Q That's not the gas absorption; that's - 14 A That's -- well, it says deposited to soil 15 and water versus wet deposition. So they're 16 basically adsorbed onto the rain or snow and 17 deposited that way. 18 Q But that's how it's done, is it's adsorbed? 19 A Yes, yeah, yeah. It's not getting into the 20 molecules themself. It's being -- it's kind of like 21 being washed out in the same way that, you know, 22 kind of dust is washed out. It's just -- yeah, it 23 adsorbs. 24 Q PCBs can also volatilize in the gas form 25 into the atmosphere from soil and water or resuspend 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046551 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 136 1 in the air on particulate matter. 2 And that's true? We've talked about that. 3 true? 4 A Yes, that's correct. 5 Q It is estimated that the atmosphere is a net 6 recipient of PCBs from these reservoirs. 7 Do you know what that means? 8 A Well, to me it means more is going into the 9 atmosphere than is coming out. I don't know whether 10 I agree with that or not, but... 11 Q Okay. The atmosphere -12 A Let me just qualify that. The reason I 13 don' t believe that is I think worldwide PCB levels 14 are decreasing in the atmosphere, and if this were 15 true, they'd be increasing. So I don't think -- I 16 don' t -- I just don't -- I don't agree with this 17 statement. 18 Q Decreasing in the air? 19 A Uh-huh. 20 Q Worldwide? 21 A Uh-huh. 22 Q Is that yes? 23 A Yes . 24 Q It says, The atmosphere half-lives of PCB 25 congeners range from weeks to years. 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046552 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 137 1 Do you agree -- are you able to agree or 2 disagree with that? 3 A No. As I sit here today, I don't -- I don't 4 know enough to say one -- whether that's correct or 5 not. 6 Q Okay. And then this next one tries to, I 7 guess, kind of shave this a little bit closer. It 8 says, Biphenyls with 0 to 1 chlorine atoms remain in 9 the atmosphere and degrade first. Those with 1 to 4 10 chlorines migrate toward polar latitudes in a series 11 of volatilization/deposition cycles. Those with 4 12 to 8 chlorines remain in mid-latitudes, and those 13 with 8 to 9 stay close to the source of 14 contamination. 15 Agree or disagree? 16 A Okay. I -17 Q Or is it too general? 18 A Well, I -- I kind of addressed this earlier, 19 and my answer would disagree with this. Now, I 20 didn't do a literature search, which they say they 21 did. So I'm going to say that both with regard to 22 my earlier answer and with this -- regard to this 23 question, I don't have enough information as I sit 24 here to -- to agree or disagree. 25 Q Yeah. And I thought one of the things we 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046553 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 138 1 talked about earlier was even in the Arctic you can 2 find some decachlorobiphenyl? 3 A Well, I would -- that's not necessarily 4 deca. But I would say 1254- or 1260-like materials. 5 Q Fair enough. 6 A Higher chlorinated materials. So... 7 (Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 13 8 marked for identification.) 9 Q (By Mr. Schick) Let me show you Exhibit 13. 10 This is a February 11, 1959, Monsanto document that 11 contains discussion about expansion of the Aroclor 12 department. 13 You're familiar with this, are you not? 14 You've seen it before? 15 A I don't think I have. I don't know. As I 16 sit here , I don't recognize it, but given time to 17 read it, I might. But I don't know for sure. 18 Q Here's what I wanted to ask you about: It 19 says, In the past, there was room for expansion in 20 the Aroclor still room. 21 Then under overall plan for the department, 22 it looks like, 27, A, Disposal of Still Residue, 23 present disposal of still residue is uneconomical 24 and takes much of the available material handling 25 space. In the future, Aroclor still residue will be 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046554 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 139 1 pumped into trash skips located east of the Aroclor 2 still room and removed by truck. This will provide 3 more room for material handling and eliminate the 4 necessity of drumming Aroclor still bottoms for 5 disposal. 6 So what they're talking about here is 7 chlorinated still bottoms, what we called earlier 8 Montars, true? 9 MR. MERRILL: I'm going to object to this 10 line of questioning, again for the reason that it's 11 beyond the 30(b)6 designation. 12 A Yes. They're talking about Aroclor still 13 bottoms. 14 Q (By Mr. Schick) Okay. And the way I read 15 the first sentence and I put that note there, does 16 that mean that the still bottoms were kept around 17 for some period of time before they were taken to 18 the landfill, or do you know? 19 A I don't know, but that's not the way I would 20 read it. 21 Q How would you read it? 22 A I would read it that having a lot of drums 23 there takes up a lot of space. 24 Q Fair enough. Next section talks about solid 25 Aroclors 5460 and 1268. It says, A multi-purpose 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046555 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 140 1 flaker will be installed on the second floor of the 2 Aroclor still room, as shown in the attached sketch. 3 The finished product will be packaged in bags and 4 placed on pallets. 5 Do you know whether -- when those were being 6 placed in bags whether there -- whether dust was 7 generated during that process of loading up the 8 bags ? 9 A Can I preference that with a statement? 10 That I don't know that either one of these were ever 11 done. I mean, these are plans. I don't know that 12 either one of these were ever implemented. And in 13 fact, I know a flaker was placed, but it was not 14 placed where it says here. So I don't -- I don't 15 know that any of this was ever done. 16 Q Did the flaker permit emissions to the air? 17 A I believe there could have been dust 18 emissions, yeah. 19 Q And would those have been of the heavier 20 Aroclors, like a 1268? 21 A Well, they would have been solid Aroclors. 22 Q Solids. 23 A You can't flake liquids. 24 Q Was 1268 run through the flaker? 25 A For some period of time, yes. 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046556 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 141 1 Q Okay. Do you know what period of time? 2 A Not specifically. 3 (Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 14 4 marked for identification.) 5 Q (By Mr. Schick) Let me show you Exhibit 14 6 to your deposition. This is a September 5, 1969, 7 memorandum that appears to be minutes of the Aroclor 8 ad hoc committee and its first meeting, and I wanted 9 to direct your attention to page 3 of this document. 10 It says, Air pollution reduction has not 11 been considered by the plants to date except as 12 incidental prevention of product contamination 13 during tank car and drum loading operations. 14 Now, tank car and drum loading operations 15 would include the loading of chlorinated biphenyls, 16 right? 17 A Oh, I think that's all this is talking 18 about. 19 Q Yeah, right. And, well, I guess my point 20 just was: You're going to get some emissions into 21 the air during those processes as well, true? 22 A Some unknown amount of emissions, yes. 23 Q Okay. Then it says, Long range, 1 to 2 24 year, improvements at Anniston are planned to reduce 25 product contamination and air emissions in the car 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046557 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 142 1 loading operations. It was agreed that a 2 comprehensive air sampling and testing program would 3 be very expensive and is probably not justified at 4 this stage of the problem. 5 And then with respect to customers, the next 6 paragraph says, Our in-plant problems are very small 7 versus problems of dealing with environmental 8 contamination by customers. In one application 9 alone, highway paints, one million pounds per year 10 are used. Through abrasion and leaching, we can 11 assume that nearly all of this Aroclor winds up in 12 the environment. 13 What do you know about Aroclors in highway 14 paints ? 15 A Well, not much more than what it says. I 16 know they were used there. I know my friend Bill 17 Papageorge always says, That's why the lines don't 18 stick to the highways anymore, because they quit 19 using Aroclors. 20 But, I mean, yes, they were clearly used in 21 highway paints. 22 Q All over the world? 23 A Well, I don't know that. 24 Q All over the country? 25 A In sections of the country. Again, I don't 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046558 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 143 1 know what the distribution was, but it was a -- it 2 was a known usage, and I would guess most highway 3 departments used it, yes. But, again, those -4 those PCBs are going to be attached to that paint. 5 and they're not going to be readily available for 6 other kinds of distribution. In fact, it's even 7 going to be more than like on a soil particle 8 because they're going to be in that paint matrix. 9 So they're not going to volatilize very easily -10 Q Right. 11 A -- or be leached very easily. 12 Q Okay. 13 (Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 15 14 marked for identification.) 15 Q (By Mr. Schick) Exhibit 15 to your 16 deposition is a December 29, 1970, memorandum to 17 Mr. Papageorge, and it says, Listed below is the 18 data which has been collected to date on PCB losses 19 to the atmosphere in Anniston. And it has a listing 20 here of a test done November 24 of the Montar hood. 21 Do you see that? 22 A Yes, I do. 23 Q Was the Montar hood discharged into the 24 atmosphere? 25 A I don't know the answer to that. 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046559 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 144 1 Q Okay. It appears, though, that the highest 2 concentrations of PCB levels in the ambient air were 3 of or off the Montar hood, if you look at that 4 column PCB concentrations milligram per meter, true? 5 A Yes. While it was drawing Aroclor 1242 6 bottoms . So, again, those are the more highly 7 chlorinated Aroclors. I don't know that that would 8 be true for -- for other Aroclors. But based on 9 this piece of paper, that's true. 10 Q Because -- and what you're referring to is 11 the last column? What you believe they were drawing 12 on November 24 of this year were 1242s? 13 A That's what it says, yes. 14 Q Yeah, okay. Of course, if the Montar hood 15 vented those materials to the atmosphere, they could 16 then be transported via the air mechanism we've 17 talked about earlier, true? 18 A Right. Subject to all the provisos we've 19 talked about, yes. 20 Q Fair enough. 21 (Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 16 22 marked for identification.) 23 Q (By Mr. Schick) Exhibit No. 16 to your 24 deposition is a May 12, 1969, memorandum. And I 25 don't need to dwell on -- there's one statement on 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046560 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 145 1 page -- I think it's 3 at the top. Work to minimize 2 losses at Anniston and then it says, External to 3 plant, that a problem exists at Anniston is evident 4 because, quote, free globules of Aroclors can be 5 seen in Snow Creek. 6 And here's my 30(b)6 question to you: When 7 you have free globules of Aroclors, you've got 8 something that can be volatilized still into the 9 air, true? 10 A Well, possibly eventually. I mean, these 11 are in Snow Creek. 12 Q Right. 13 A So they're in the bottom of Snow Creek. So 14 because PCBs sink, they don't float. So, again, for 15 them to be volatilized, they're going to have to 16 dissolve in the water, which is a very slow and 17 inefficient process. And then further they're going 18 to have to volatilize from the water into the 19 atmosphere. So, again, I think, although 20 theoretically, what you described in your question 21 could occur, it's not going to be a very efficient 22 process for getting PCBs into the air. It's going 23 to be a very inefficient processes, which is, you 24 know, maybe unfortunate because that's why they were 25 still globules in the bottom of the creek. 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046561 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 146 1 Q Yeah. And, of course, so what that does 2 demonstrate to us, though, what this exhibit does 3 demonstrate to us, though, is that discharge of 4 Aroclors into the wastewater, into the creeks, was 5 certainly an issue at this time? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And would you -- are you able to say whether 8 you would expect the relative percentage of Aroclors 9 in the water discharge to be comparable to the 10 production of various Aroclors? 11 MR. MERRILL: Object to the form of the 12 question. 13 Q (By Mr. Schick) We talked about this 14 earlier. You know, you had your percentage of - 15 A Yeah. My presumption would be that at the 16 immediate point of discharge, it would be reflective 17 of the materials that were being produced, so that 18 that chart would be approximately correct at the 19 point of discharge. 20 Q And -- and the globules, those certainly 21 could be deposited on the -- on the floodplain in 22 the event of a flood? I mean, if you have some 23 flood event that picks up that sediment, it can go 24 into the floodplain or wherever that sediment goes? 25 A Yeah, I believe that's correct. But let me 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046562 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 147 1 add another thing here. I think those globulars - 2 globules are more likely to be the lower chlorinated 3 materials. 4 Q Why is that? 5 A Because the higher chlorinated materials, 6 even starting at 1254, are almost solid. So my view 7 of a globule is a little droplet of something on the 8 bottom of the stream. Aroclor 1254 or 1260 would 9 not be that. 1260 would be a resonance material at 10 ambient temperatures underneath water. Plus those 11 heavier chlorinated materials are more likely to 12 have been trapped in the limestone beds just because 13 of their physical properties. So to the extent that 14 this is correct, my -- my understanding of the 15 properties of PCBs, they would be more 1242-like 16 materials. 17 Q Okay.But, of course, depending on the 18 flood event and - 19 A Yeah. I'm not -- that's in addition to your 20 question. 21 Q -- and the volume of water? 22 A I agree with your question. That if you've 23 got PCBs in a globular form and you have a flood 24 event, they could certainly be transported to some 25 extent by thatevent. 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046563 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 148 1 Q Regardless of which Aroclor it is, depending 2 on -3 A Yes . 4 Q -- flow, speed, volume, etc.? 5 A I would agree with that. 6 (Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 17 7 marked for identification.) 8 Q (By Mr. Schick) Exhibit 17 to your 9 deposition, Dr. Kaley -- and I just want to ask you 10 to -- page 8. This is an EPA document by the way. 11 I don' t mean to be obtuse with you here about these 12 things . It says, The sources of P -- and I'm sorry. 13 I'm looking at page 8. 14 A Yeah, I'm with you. 15 Q Did you get it? 16 A Yes . 17 Q The sources of PCB effluents including -18 included the hydrochloric acid, chlorinator, still 19 room, and warehouse sewers. At times the 20 chlorinator and still room sewers had an Aroclor 21 phase. The major losses from the warehouse sewer 22 were due to spills while drumming or flaking. These 23 spills were swept to the sewer during floor cleanup. 24 The HC1 scrubber jets sewered -- and I think we saw 25 a document earlier that talked about this 11.84 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046564 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 149 1 pounds per day of PCB in 1970. These sewers 2 discharged into the Snow Creek, Choccolocco Creek 3 watershed. 4 And then it says, About 1.8 million pounds 5 of PCBs are estimated as discharged by the sewers 6 from the production of Aroclors at the Anniston 7 plant. 8 And my question is: Do you agree that the 9 discharges over time were in that range? 10 A I have no idea as I sit here. 11 Q Okay. Are you aware of any studies that 12 show the air-water exchange of PCBs has the 13 potential to be a significant source of PCBs into 14 the atmosphere? 15 A Well, I certainly know that it occurs, and I 16 guess that depends on your definition of 17 significant. 18 Q Fair. Okay. Fair enough. 19 (Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 18 20 marked for identification.) 21 Q (By Mr. Schick) I wanted to ask you if you 22 have seen Exhibit No. 18, which is a 2002 article 23 that appeared in Environmental Science Technology. 24 A Yes. 25 Q You've seen that before? 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046565 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 150 1 A Yes. 2 Q And what they did suggest that there's an 3 air-water exchange of T or total PCBs that has the 4 potential to be a significant source of PCBs to the 5 rural atmosphere. 6 Do you see that? 7 A I see that that's what their conclusion is, 8 yes. 9 Q Do you agreewith that or do you agree that 10 their study concluded --thattheir study 11 demonstrated that? 12 A Well, I'm not sure, without reading the 13 article, I could really make an intelligent decision 14 or an answer to that question. But if you look at 15 the rest of the abstract, I mean, 120 micrograms per 16 square meter per year, I mean, those aren't huge 17 numbers, you know, into the whole totalatmosphere, 18 because, you know, theatmosphere is very big. 19 So I don't -- I don't know whether that - 20 you know, I'd be more interested in how that 21 contributed to a measured level in the atmosphere 22 rather than just how much they're measuring coming 23 off the soils. 24 Q But you don't disagree that this is a 25 phenomenon that -- 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046566 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 151 1 A Oh, no. Clearly a phenomenon that occurs. 2 Bless you. 3 MR. SCHICK: Thank you. 4 THE WITNESS: Bless you. 5 MR. SCHICK: Thanks. 6 (Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 19 7 marked for identification.) 8 Q (By Mr. Schick) Let me give you Exhibit 19. 9 And, again, what I'm looking at here is an amount of 10 discharge that may be -- may have been free for 11 being taken up either by waterways or by ambient 12 air. This is an August 7, 1970, document. At the 13 top it says, Confidential - FYI and destroy. 14 And then status says, We are presently 15 discharging to Snow Creek about 16 pounds a day of 16 PCBs, down from 250 pounds per day in '69. 17 Measurements of departmental waste streams show a 18 total loss of only 2 pounds per day. The 19 discrepancy is believed due to, A, sampling problems 20 in departmental waste streams where two-phase 21 systems of water and free Aroclors may be present; 22 and B, possible pickup of PCB by leaching previously 23 deposited PCB from the limestone neutralization pit 24 which also acts as a settling basin. 25 Now, is that limestone neutralization pit 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046567 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 152 1 the same one you were referring to earlier for 2 Montars - 3 A Not for Cleghorn. 4 Q -- Lake Cleghorn? 5 A No, no, no. The -- these are -- the 6 limestone pits were actually just prior to the 7 discharge into the waterways that eventually led to 8 Snow Creek. Cleghorn's Lake was in the middle of 9 the plant and, again, wasn't a lake. It wasn't a 10 body of water. 11 Q Right. Okay. But what this document 12 indicates in 1970 is that PCBs were apparently being 13 leached out of that neutralization pit? 14 A Well, that was - 15 Q And taken to a waterway? 16 A That was the possibility that was being 17 considered here, yes. 18 Q And, in fact, one of the ways they thought 19 about reducing those losses was to install a sump? 20 You see that in paragraph A underneath there, Work 21 to further reduce. 22 MR. MERRILL: Again, I want to object to 23 this line of questioning to the extent that it's 24 beyond the 30(b)6 designation. It's skirting around 25 it and may get into it, but... 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046568 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 153 1 MR. SCHICK: Fair enough. Fair -- you know 2 what? I'll withdraw that question. 3 Q (By Mr. Schick) I want to go back to 4 paragraph 1 again. It says, A, sampling problems in 5 departmental waste streams where two-phase systems 6 of water and free Aroclors may be present. 7 What does that mean? 8 A Well, that's kind of like the globular 9 things in Snow Creek. You've got a -- you've got an 10 organic Aroclor phase because PCBs don't dissolve in 11 water, and then you've got the water phase. So if 12 you -- if you drop a drop of PCBs into water, it's 13 going to sink to the bottom, remain as a globule. 14 That's the two-phase system. You have a water phase 15 and an aqueous phase. It's the oil and vinegar 16 story. 17 Q Understood. And this is actually happening 18 in the process plant at that time? 19 A According to this document, yes. 20 Q Okay. And do you know how far downstream 21 those PCBs would be taken? 22 A You know, I don't. I don't know how -- what 23 that two-phase system -- how far it persists -24 Q Yeah. 25 A -- or persisted at the time. 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046569 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 154 1 (Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 20 2 marked for identification.) 3 Q (By Mr. Schick) Exhibit 20 to your 4 deposition is an October 1969 report of the Aroclor 5 ad hoc committee. You've seen this document before? 6 A Yes . 7 Q And some of the recommendations, if you turn 8 to page 3 of the document, for losses of Aroclors in 9 liquid wastes -- and I assume when we talk about 10 liquid wastes, those are wastes made available to 11 the waterways in Anniston, true? 12 A Yeah. 13 Q And the goal was to try to reduce those to 14 less than 5 parts per billion? 15 A That's what's written on here, yes. 16 Q At least for -- it says -- it looks like 17 1254 and maybe 12 -- it says 126 and then -- you see 18 that off to the side? 19 A Yes, I see that. I assume it's 1260. 20 Q Okay. And then determine extent of 21 atmospheric losses from Aroclors from Anniston and 22 WGK plants and develop plans for control. 23 So clearly there was an understanding of 24 losses to atmosphere? 25 A Well, from this document, you would say 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046570 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 155 1 there was an understanding of the potential for 2 losses from the atmosphere. I mean, it basically 3 says we don't know what the extent of those losses 4 are, but the potential is clearly there, yes. 5 Q If you'll turn to page 8, under 4 it says, 6 Investigation has shown that the waters in receiving 7 streams below the Anniston plant contain 8 significant, parentheses, parts per million, 9 concentrations of PCB. More ominous perhaps is the 10 fact that sediment in the bottom of these streams 11 miles below our plants may contain up to 2 percent 12 Aroclor. 13 You don't have any reason to disagree with 14 those findings, do you? 15 A No. 16 Q And then it says, Toprepare for the 17 eventual publication in the press of the discharge 18 of PCBs in Alabama and to the Mississippi River, a 19 significant effort must be made to determine the 20 present levels and determine the levels of 21 contamination as cleanup procedures begin. 22 I didn't understand the Mississippi River. 23 MR. MERRILL: I'm going to object to this 24 line of questioning to the extent it's beyond the 25 scope of the designation, 30(b)6designation. 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046571 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 156 1 Q (By Mr. Schick) Do you have any knowledge 2 about transport of PCBs from Anniston to the 3 Mississippi River? 4 A No. The Sauget plant that made PCBs is on 5 the Mississippi River. 6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We have about 4 minutes, 7 Counselor. 8 MR. SCHICK: You know, if I can take a 9 5-minute break, I'll finish in less than 10 minutes, 10 if that's okay with y'all. 11 THE WITNESS: It's your day. 12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're off the record at 13 12:23. This ends tape No. 3. 14 (Off the record.) 15 (Defendants' Exhibit Kaley 21 16 marked for identification.) 17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on record at 18 12:31. This begins tape No. 4 of the deposition of 19 Dr. Robert Kaley. 20 Q (By Mr. Schick) Thank you. Dr. Kaley, I've 21 got Exhibit 21 up, which is the last exhibit I 22 intend to ask you about. This appears to be a 23 September 18, 1970, document, again referring to the 24 Anniston facility. 25 It says, In reviewing your proposed letter 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046572 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 157 1 to Joe Crockett with legal, we requested latest 2 emissions data on the flow to Snow Creek. We had 3 hoped that it might show an improvement over the 4 first week in September and thus demonstrate a 5 favorable trend to Crockett. Instead, the emissions 6 are considerably increased with 9/13/70 at 6.25 7 parts per million or about 80 pounds of PCB for the 8 day. 9 Now, do you have any idea as to what that 10 referred to in the way of Aroclor, slash, 11 homologues ? 12 MR. MERRILL: Again, I'm going to object to 13 the question as being beyond the scope of the 30( b) 6 14 designation. 15 A No. Without seeing the analytical data, I 16 couldn't speculate. 17 Q (By Mr. Schick) Do you know whether there 18 was any analytical data that differentiated what the 19 80 pounds consisted of? 20 A Presumably somebody made a measurement, so 21 there must have been some at some point. I have no 22 idea whether it exists. 23 Q Okay. It continues and says, There's 24 extreme reluctance to report even the relatively low 25 emission figures because the information could be 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046573 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 158 1 subpoenaed and used against us in legal actions. 2 Obviously having to report those -- these gross loss 3 multiples, enormously, our problems because the 4 figure would appear to indicate lack of control. 5 Do you ever speak with anyone who was 6 involved in doing these -- the studies back at that 7 time in 1970? 8 A Not about those studies. I mean, I've 9 clearly spoken with people that were involved in 10 them, but not -- not about this document or what 11 those studies were shown or -12 Q Okay. 13 A -- seen the results or anything. 14 Q And you don't know over time what the 15 discharges were to various waterways in the Anniston 16 area other than what might be reflected in documents 17 like this? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q Is it -- is it your view that when PCBs 20 adhere to soil particles and then become subject to 21 movement through storm water or surface water, that 22 they tend to form a gradient with concentrations 23 decreasing as they move away from the source? 24 A Generally I would say that's true, yes. 25 Q Okay. Is it your expectation -- now, by the 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046574 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 159 1 way, when you say generally that's the case, it can 2 be different when you have varying flood events or 3 different types of flood events, true? 4 A Or, you know, there's unseen things like 5 people moving sediments mechanically and stuff like 6 that. I mean, it's not necessarily going to be a 7 smooth gradient, but it's going to be a general 8 trend. 9 Q And of course, as we discussed earlier, you 10 can have instances where PCBs carried through 11 waterway sediment lands on a floodplain and upon 12 drying it could become volatilized or at least enter 13 the atmosphere through particulate? 14 A It's possible at some level, yes. 15 Q Okay. Is it your expectation, Dr. Kaley, 16 that if there's a source of PCBs to a surface 17 waterway, you'd expect to find higher 18 concentrations -- higher concentrations of the PCBs 19 upgradient near the location of the release as 20 opposed to further away? 21 A All right. Would you read that again, 22 please? 23 Q Yes, sir. Is it your expectation that if 24 there's a source of PCBs to a surface waterway, 25 you'd expect to find higher concentrations 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046575 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 160 1 upgradient near the location of the release as 2 opposed to downgradient where you'd find lower 3 concentrations? 4 A In general that would be true, yes. 5 Q Again, with some of the exceptions that 6 we've already talked about today? 7 A Right. 8 MR. SCHICK: Those are all of my questions, 9 Dr. Kaley. But somebody on the phone might have one 10 or two or I don't know how many. I don't want to 11 speak for them. But I think we're -- thank you very 12 much. 13 MS. LAVEY: I have none. 14 MR. SCHICK: On the phone? 15 MR. HEISTER: This is Michael Heister. I 16 don't have any questions. 17 MS. SMITH: This is Lynette Smith. I don't 18 have any. 19 MS. McADAM: This is Allison McAdam. I 20 don't have any. 21 MR. SCOTT: This is John Scott. I don't 22 have any. 23 MR. NICHOLS: Ron Nichols. No questions. 24 MR. MERRILL: I have one question. 25 MS. LEMMER: Julie Lemmer. I have no 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046576 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 161 1 questions. 2 MR. SCHICK: Okay. 3 MR. MERRILL: I do have one question. 4 EXAMINATION 5 QUESTIONS BY MR. MERRILL: 6 Q We were talking -- on Exhibit 13 there's a 7 mention of the flaker, and they were discussing 8 solid Aroclor 5460. 9 A Yes . 10 Q What is Aroclor 5460? 11 A It's a polychlorinated terphenyl product. 12 Q Okay. That is not a PCB? 13 A It is not a PCB. It's three benzene rings 14 rather than two benzene rings. 15 Q Okay. 16 A So the Aroclor department was the polyphenol 17 department, meaning many phenol rings . So there 18 were PCBs and there were polychlorinated terphenyl 19 products. 20 MR. MERRILL: Okay. No other questions. 21 MR. SCHICK: Thanks. 22 THE WITNESS: You're welcome. Thank you. 23 MR. SCHICK: Off the record. 24 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the 25 deposition of Dr. Robert Kaley. We are off record 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046577 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 1 at 12:36. 2 MR. SCHICK: Thank you both very much. 3 4 (Original Defendants' Exhibits 5 Kaley 1 through 21 attached to 6 original transcript.) 7 8 SIGNATURE RESERVED, BY AGREEMENT OF COUNSEL AND 9 WITNESS 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 162 WATER PCB-SD0000046578 FREEDOM COURT REPORTING 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama 35209 205.397.2397 877.373.3660 WITNESS CERTIFICATION I, Robert G. Kaley, 1% said witness, do hereby acknowledge that I have read the foregoing transcript of my testimony and that it is a true and correct transcription of the answers given by me to the questions propounded, except for the changes, if any, noted on the attached errata sheet. \i v y V Witness Signature above: Printed name: ROBERT G. KALEY, II Sworn to and subscribed before me, this -- v 3the i 3 dav of ^ \ms/u*usmlj & (' V' A ..V /Ate- Tfotafypublic My Commission expires LYNNE L. ANGLE Htetefy-Riblic - Notary Seal 1 STATE OF MISSOURI ] 3t. Francois County 1 -v,v 'Commission Expires: April 22,2011 l Commission # 07513570 Deposition of: Taken: Court Reporter: Robert Kaley 12/08/09 Pamela Harrison WATER PCB-SD0000046579 TRANSCRIPT ERRATA SHEET Deposition of: Taken: Court Reporter: Robert Kalev 12/08/09 Pamela Harrison Page #: 10 18 Line #: Correction/Reason for change: 8 and throughout Solucia should read Solutia (sp) 2 trichloral should read trichloro (sp) 24 l class should read qlass (tr) 31 1 parallel sh'ould read particulate (tr) 34 1&2 trichloral should read trichloro (sp) 36 21 1260-A should read 1268 (tr) 40 16 trichloral should read trichloro (sp) 40 17 PCB 11 is a dichloro, not a trichloro congener (misspoke) 58 19 parallel should read particle (tr) 00 PC 79 13 120 7 127 19 129 17 147 9 161 16 161 17 incinerateds should read incinerators (tr) 1948 should read 1949 (misspoke) polvbhenol should read polyphenyl (tr) solve should read sold (tr) resonance should read resinous (tr) polyphenol should read polyphenyl (tr) phenol should read phenyl (tr) .note ;--(tr)__= transcription? (sp) = spelling WATER PCB-SD0000046580 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 163 1 STATE OF MISSOURI 2 SS. 3 CITY OF ST. LOUIS 4 I, Pamela Watson Harrison, CBC, CRR, RPR, MO 5 CSR #557, IL CSR #084-003684, and Notary Public in 6 and for the State of Missouri, duly commissioned, 7 qualified and authorized to administer oaths and to 8 certify to depositions, do hereby certify that 9 pursuant to Agreement in the civil cause now pending 10 and undetermined in the United States District Court 11 for the Northern District of Alabama, Eastern 12 Division, to be used in the trial of said cause in 13 said court, I was attended at the offices of Husch 14 Blackwell Sanders, LLP, 190 Carondelet Plaza, Suite 15 600, St. Louis, Missouri, by the aforesaid witness; 16 and by the aforesaid attorneys; on the 8th day of 17 December, 2009. 18 That the said witness, being of sound mind and 19 being by me first carefully examined and duly 20 cautioned and sworn to testify the truth, the whole 21 truth, and nothing but the truth in the case 22 aforesaid, thereupon testified as is shown in the 23 foregoing transcript, said testimony being by me 24 reported in shorthand and caused to be transcribed 25 into typewriting, and that the foregoing pages 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046581 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 164 1 correctly set forth the testimony of the 2 aforementioned witness, together with the questions 3 propounded by counsel and remarks and objections of 4 counsel thereto, and is in all respects a full, 5 true, correct and complete transcript of the 6 questions propounded to and the answers given by 7 said witness; that signature of the deponent was 8 reserved by agreement of counsel. 9 I further certify that I am not of counsel or 10 attorney for either of the parties to said suit, not 11 related to nor interested in any of the parties or 12 their attorneys. 13 Witness my hand and notarial seal at 14 St. Louis, Missouri, this 15th day of December, 15 2009. 16 My Commission expires July 17, 2013. 17 18 19 Notary Public in and for the 20 State of Missouri 21 22 23 24 25 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046582 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 1 Gore Perry Gateway & Lipa Reporting 2 3 4 Charles Merrill, Esq. 5 Husch Blackwell Sanders, LLP 165 6 190 Carondelet Plaza, Suite 600 7 St. Louis, MO 63105 8 9 Enclosed please find the Original Signature pages 10 and errata sheets for the deposition of: 11 Robert Kaley, Ph.D. taken 12/8/2009 in the case of: 12 Solutia, Inc., et al. vs. McWane, Inc., et al. 13 Please read your copy of the transcript, noting 14 any corrections on the enclosed erratta sheets, 15 and return all pages for filing in court to: 16 Wendlene M. Lavey, Esq. 17 Squire, Sanders & Dempsey, LLP 18 127 Public Square, Suite 4900 19 Cleveland, OH 44114-1304 20 21 Your prompt cooperation will be appreciated. 22 Sincerely, 23 24 Gore Perry Gateway & Lipa Reporting 25 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046583 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 1 Page Line Should Read: 2 Reason for change: 3 4 Page Line Should Read: 5 Reason for change: 6 7 Page Line Should Read: 8 Reason for change: 9 10 Page Line Should Read: 11 Reason for change: 12 13 Page Line Should Read: 14 Reason for change: 15 16 Page Line Should Read: 17 Reason for change: 18 19 Page Line Should Read: 20 Reason for change: 21 22 Page Line Should Read: 23 Reason for change: 24 25 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 166 WATER PCB-SD0000046584 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 1 Page Line Should Read: 2 Reason for change: 3 4 Page Line Should Read: 5 Reason for change: 6 7 Page Line Should Read: 8 Reason for change: 9 10 Page Line Should Read: 11 Reason for change: 12 13 Page Line Should Read: 14 Reason for change: 15 16 Page Line Should Read: 17 Reason for change: 18 19 Page Line Should Read: 20 Reason for change: 21 22 Page Line Should Read: 23 Reason for change: 24 25 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 167 WATER PCB-SD0000046585 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 1 Comes now the witness, Robert Kaley, Ph.D., 2 and having read the the foregoing transcript 3 of the deposition taken on the 12/8/2009, 4 acknowledges by signature hereto that it is a 5 true and accurate transcript of the testimony given 6 on the date hereinabove mentioned. 7 8 9 10 Robert Kaley, Ph.D. 11 12 Subscribed and swornto me before this 168 13 day of ,2009. 14 My Commission expires9/16/2006 15 16 17 18 Notary Public 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046586 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 1 COURT MEMO 2 34 5 Solutia, Inc., et al. vs. McWane, Inc., et al. V-03-PWG-1345-E 7 8 CERTIFICATE OF OFFICER AND 9 STATEMENT OF DEPOSITION CHARGES 10 11 DEPOSITION OF ROBERT KALEY, PH.D. 12 TAKEN ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANT 13 12/8/2009 14 Name and address of person or firm having custody of 15 the original transcript: 16 Wendlene M. Lavey 17 Squire, Sanders & Dempsey 18 4900 Society Center, 127 Public Square 19 Cleveland, OH 44114 20 21 22 23 24 25 169 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046587 Freedom Court Reporting, Inc RIGINAL TRANSCRIPT TAXED IN FAVOR OF: endlene M. Lavey quire, Sanders & Dempsey 900 Society Center, 127 Public Square leveland, OH 44114 otal: 7 1 ONE COPY - TAXED IN FAVOR OF: 8 Charles Merrill 9 Husch Blackwell Sanders 10 190 Carondelet Plaza, Suite 600 11 Clayton, MO 63105 12 Total: 13 14 Upon delivery of transcripts, the above 15 charges had not been paid. It is anticipated 16 that all charges will be paid in the normal course 17 of business. 18 GORE PERRY GATEWAY & LIPA REPORTING COMPANY 19 515 Olive Street, Suite 700 20 St. Louis, Missouri 63101 21 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set 22 my hand and seal on this day of 23 Commission expires 9/16/2006 24 25 Notary Public 170 367 Valley Avenue Birmingham, Alabama (877) 373-3660 WATER PCB-SD0000046588