Document BvyzryMRYmbg8GLr2qxxv99NE

1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA 2 FOR THE COUNTY OF IOS ANGELES 3 DEPARTMENT 3 HON. J. STEPHEN CZULE^R, JUDGE 4 5 POSLYN DAUBER, ET AL. ) 6 PLAINTIFFS, ) ) SUPERIOR COURT 7 vs. ) CASE NO. BC 483342, Etc. 8 MONSANTO COMPANY, ET AL., ) 9 DEFENDANTS. ) ) 10 11 REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 12 Tuesday, March 22, 2016 13 A.M. Session 14 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: 15 FOR PLAINTIFFS: WATERS KRAUS 16 BY: GARY PAUL, ESQ. 222 North Sqoulveda Boulevard 17 Suite 1900 El Segundo, California 90245 18 (310)414-8146 gpaul@waterskraus. com 19 20 ALLEN STEWART, P.C. 21 BY: SCOTT R. FRTFT,TNG, ESQ. 325 North St. Paul Street 22 Suite 4000 Dallas, Texas 72501 2 3 (214)965-5700 sfrielingUallenstewart. com 24 25 (Appearances continued on next page.) 26 DAVID A. SALYER, CSR, PMR, CPR Official Pro Tern Court Reporter 27 License No. 4410 28 1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: (CONTINUED) 2 FOR DEFENDANTS: 3 4 5 6 STEFTOE & JOHNSON, LLP BY: DANIEL R. BLAKEY, ESQ. 633 West Fifth Street Suite 700 Los Angeles, California 90071 (213)439-9494 dblakey@steptce. com 7 HUSCH BLACKWELL 8 BY: ADAM E. MILLER, ESQ. ROBYN D. BUCK, ESQ. 9 190 Carondelet Plaza Suite 600 10 St. Louis, Missouri 63105 (314)480-1847 11 adam.miller@huschblackwell. con rcbyn. buck@huschblackwell. com 12 13 McDERMOTT, WILL & EMERY 14 BY: ANTHONY N. UPSHAW, ESQ. 333 Avenue of the Americas 15 Suite 4500 Miami, Florida 33131-2184 16 (305)347-6540 aupshaw@mwe. con 17 18 MONSANTO 19 BY: MOLLY M. JONES, ESQ. 800 North Lindbergh Boulevard 20 St. Louis, Missouri 63167 (314)694-3139 21 molly.m.jones@monsanto.com 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 1 INDEX FOR TUESDAY, LARCH 22, 2016 2 A.M. Session 3 MASTER INDEX 4 5 CHRONOLOGICAL INDEX OF WITNESSES 6 WITNESS DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT PECROSS 7 KALEY, Robert George 2(U) 8 9 10 11 U - Mr. Upshaw 12 13 14 EXHIBIT NO. EXHIBIT INDEX FOR ID IN EVIDENCE 15 882 Slide Show 16 883 Chart 17 884 Pappas Letter 1 23 65 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 1 1 CASE NUMBER: B0 483342, ETC. 2 CASE NAME: DAUBER V. MONSANTO, ETC. 3 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA TUESDAY, LARCH 22, 2016 4 LOCATION 3 J. STEPHEN CZUIEGER, JUD^ 5 REPORTER: DAVID A. SALYER, CSR 4410 6 TIME: 8:30 A.M. 7 hOOO 8 (The following proceedings were held 9 outside the jury's presence.) 10 THE COURT: We'll go on the record. 11 In the case of Dauber versus Monsanto, the record will 12 reflect counsel are present. ATI jurors and alternates are 13 out of the court. 14 Mr. Upshaw, you have a slide show for Dr. Kaley? 15 MR. UPSHAW: Yes, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: Co you wish to mark that next in order 882? 17 MR. UPSHAW: 882. Yes, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: It will be so marked. 19 (Exhibit 882, Slide Shew, marked for I.D.) 20 (The following proceedings were held in epen court 21 in the presence of the jury.) 22 THE COURT: In the case of Dauber versus Monsanto, the 2 3 record will reflect all counsel are present. ATI jurors and 24 alternates are present. 25 Good morning, ladies and gentlaren. 26 Mr. Upshaw, you may call your next witness. 27 MR. UPSHAW: Good morning, your Honor. I would like to 28 call Dr. Bob Kaley to the stand. Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067710 24 1 THE CLERK: Please raise your right hand. 2 3 ROBERT GEORGE KALEY, IT 4 having been called as a witness and sworn testified as 5 follows. 6 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. 8 THE CLERK: Thank you. 9 Please be seated in the witness stand. 10 Please state and spell your first and last name. 11 THE WITNESS: It's Robert George Kaley, K-A-L-E-Y, IT. 12 THE CLERK: Thank you. 13 THE COURT: You may inquire. 14 15 DIRECT EXAMINATION 16 BY MR. UPSHAW: 17 Q. Good morning. Dr. Kaley. 18 A. Good morning. 19 Q. Are you a chemist? 20 A. I am. 21 Q. Are you the only chenist that this jury will 22 hear from? 2 3 A. I believe I am. 24 Q. As far as you knew. 25 A. As far as I knew, yes, that's correct. 26 Q. New, we have asked you here to help us 27 understand frem Monsanto's perspective the history of PCBs and 28 what's known about their use, their properties and the health 1 Q. Did you speak with those people and actually 2 have a chance to learn things about Monsanto fron then? 3 A. I did, yes. 4 Q. How about George Papageorge? What's his first 5 name? 6 A. Bill Papageorge, William. 7 Q. Did you know him? 8 A. I did. 9 Q. Did you get a chance to work with him? 10 A. I did, closely. 11 Q- He died? 12 A. Yes, unfortunately. Yes. 13 Q. How old was he around? 14 A. Pardon? 15 He was 93 or something when he passed away. 16 Q. How about Dr. Kelly? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Dr. Erauet Kelly? 19 A. I knew Errmet quite well and worked with him also 20 for a short time. He retired not too long after I joined the 21 conpany, but he still continued to have involvement. 22 Q. Has he passed away as well? 2 3 A. Yes. 24 Q. How old was he? 25 A. He was also in his 90s. 26 Q. How about Elmer Wheeler? 27 A. Yes, I knew Elmer. 28 Q. You knew him? 35 1 effects of PCBs. 2 Can you also explain what Monsanto understood 3 concerning whether PCBs would become a widespread 4 environmental contaminant? 5 A. Oh, yes. I will be able to do that. 6 Q. Did you work for Monsanto? 7 A. I did. Yes, I did. 8 Q. Hew long? 9 A. About 30 years. 10 Q. From what years? 11 A. I joined in late 1973. 12 Q. Until when you retired from Monsanto? 13 A. It was about 2003. 14 Q. New, you didn't retire from Monsanto, but we'll 15 get into that in a second. 16 A. Okay. 17 Q. When you joined Monsanto, had they already 18 stopped making PCBs for anything other than electrical uses? 19 A. Yes, they had. They stopped in 1972 for 20 everything but electrical. 21 Q. During the course of your time at Monsanto and 22 thereafter in your arployment after your retirement frem 2 3 there, have you reviewed Monsanto documents? 24 A. Yes, I have. 25 Q. In addition to that, you actually knew some of 26 the key people that this jury has heard about and have seen 27 some of the documents before, right? 28 A. Yes, I was lucky enough to do so, yes. 1 A. I did. 2 Q. Has he passed away as well? 3 A. Unfortunately, yes. 4 Q. The jury has also heard of Mr. Benignus. 5 A. Paul Benignus, yes. Paul Benignus. 6 Q. You worked with him too? 7 A. A little bit. Not as much as the others, but. 8 yes, I knew Paul and did interact with him sanewhat. 9 Q. Unfortunately I believe he has passed away as 10 well? 11 A. He has. 12 Q. Are you the only person still around who can 13 tell us about Monsanto PCBs? 14 A. Well, there are a few of us left, but I'm 15 prcbably the one that's most knowledgeable, I believe, yes. 16 Q. Let's talk about your education a little bit and 17 let this jury know you a little bit better. 18 So I m going to let you go through this slide and point 19 out to then where you went to school and sane of your 20 professional menberships. 21 A. Sure. 22 I grew up in northern Indiana. I went to Purdue 2 3 University for my undergraduate work, graduated with a 24 bachelor of science in chemistry from Purdue. 25 Then went to the University of Illinois for graduate 26 work, receiving a master's of science and then a Ph.D. in 27 analytical chemistry from Illinois. 28 Q. Okay. And some of your professional msrberships Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067711 68 1 that you -- do you currently belong to seme of these? 2 A. Yes. I belong to all of those currently. 3 They kind of -- the American Association for the 4 Advancement of Science is a broad-based organization in the 5 United States of all kinds of scientists, biologists. 6 physicists, seme medical doctors, a wide range, actually 7 publishes a very renowned journal called Science, a weekly 8 journal magazine format that is quite respected. 9 The American Chemical Society, as you can guess, is 10 primarily made up of chemists. It does have certain 11 requirements to join, and I belonged to that for many years. 12 The International Society for Environmental Forensics, 13 big words, but basically they look at -- study chemistry and 14 biology and risk assessment to understand possible sources of 15 contaminants that might be in the environment. Or forensics 16 often means courtrooms. Sometimes they actually do the kind 17 of work that ends up being put into a case in a courtroom. 18 Q. New, you worked with me and others on our team 19 to put these slides together, right? 20 A. Yes, I did. 21 Q. But it was my idea to put your picture up there? 22 A. Unfortunately. 2 3 Q. Tell us a little, if you would, about your time 24 at Monsanto. 25 A. Okay. Excuse me. 26 As I said, I started at Monsanto in 1973. Actually 27 before I actually received my degree, I finished my course or 28 my thesis at Illinois, joined in December of '73, and for 1 Solutia/Monsanto thing in '97 ? 2 Q. Just the fact that you were with the company 3 when it changed names and kind of changed ownership. 4 A. Right. In 1997, the former Monsanto Company, 5 old Monsanto, spun off the chemical businesses, which included 6 the old ECB business, and formed a company called Solutia. 7 Because my expertise and my job was around those kind 8 of chemicals rather than other parts of Monsanto, I went with 9 Solutia. 10 So when Mr. Upshaw mentioned that I didn't really 11 retire from Monsanto. I actually retired from Solutia, but it 12 was the old chemical company. 13 THE COURT: I'm sorry. It was the old chemical 14 company? What do you mean? 15 THE WITNESS: Well, Solutia had been the Monsanto 16 Chanical Company division of the bigger corporate Monsanto. 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 Q. BY MR. UPSH7W: At Solutia, what was the 19 position director of environmental affairs. Tell us a little 20 about that. 21 A. Well, basically the focus was largely, or in my 22 case -- I already have gray hair -- chemicals that had 2 3 formerly been manufactured by Monsanto but were no longer 24 manufactured. 25 ECBs were among those, but there were still lots of 26 reasons to be thinking about those kinds of chemicals. 27 There were regulations. The company got inquiries from 28 outside, and other issues. 79 1 about five years I was a laboratory chemist. 2 I walked into the company and started doing analyses 3 for ECBs. I worked in a group that was focused on doing 4 analytical chemistry, measuring ECBs and various materials. 5 also studying various properties of ECBs, would they degrade 6 in the environment, et cetera. 7 After that I became a research group leader, basically 8 doing the same kind of thing, but having a few people rqoort 9 to me. 10 In 1981, I moved to our corporate research. In the 11 years from '73 to '81, I was in the part of Monsanto that 12 had -- was making for a while and then had made ECBs. 13 In 1981 I moved into our corporate research group doing 14 a kind of chemistry called mass spectrometry. You may have 15 heard that term. If you haven't, you'll probably hear it more 16 times than you want today. 17 Q. We'll learn all about mass spectrometry later 18 today. 19 A. Yes. 20 I did less work with ECBs but I still had expertise. 21 Then in 1985 I moved to what was then called our 22 corporate environmental policy staff, and then my primary 2 3 responsibilities from really then on were to interact with 24 various people inside and outside the company on ECBs and 25 other related issues. 26 And the others are a few promotions I was lucky enough 27 to receive up to that point. 28 I don't know, Mr. Upshaw, do you want to go into the 1 So I was basically responsible for what we call legacy 2 products or products that were no longer being manufactured. 3 Q. And one of those was ECBs? 4 A. And one of those was ECBs. That' s right. 5 Q. So is it appropriate to say you worked with ECBs 6 throughout the time you were with Monsanto? 7 A. Yes. Absolutely, yes. 8 Q. Now, Monsanto stopped making or selling ECBs 9 while you were there, correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Okay. And what did you do -- I think you told 12 us what you did regarding ECBs after that. You just spoke to 13 us about that. 14 So I'll tell you what. Let's talk a little bit about 15 you. 16 A. Okay. 17 Q. Where do you live? 18 A. I live in St. Louis. 19 Q. Are you married? 20 A. I am. 21 Q. Where were you born and where did you grew up? 22 A. I was bom in Illinois, a little town in 2 3 southern Illinois, and I greiv up in South Bend, Indiana. 24 Q. Now, since retirement -- how many kids? 25 A. I do have a daughter who actually went to UCLA 26 and then Southern Cal, so I have a little bit of a California 27 link. 28 Q. Okay. So tell us what you have done since 2003 Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067712 10 12 1 as a consultant. 2 A. Yes. In 2003 after I retired I was requested by 3 Monsanto and persons, counsel working for Monsanto, to 4 continue to consult with them, to provide things I kneiv and 5 historical insights, chemical insights into FCB issues which 6 continue to occur occasionally. 7 Q. So I want to show the jury something Mr. Aguino 8 found. And who is that dashing young guy? 9 A. That was a long, long time ago. I still have 10 the beard. It hasn't come off since then. 11 That was actually taken in 1974, '75 while I was 12 working at Monsanto in the laboratory. 13 What we are actually doing there is measuring 14 biodegradation of ECBs. That was some of the work we were 15 doing. 16 Q. Let's go back to our slides if we can. 17 So you were telling us about what you do as a 18 consultant. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Since2003. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. New, do you work with attorneys as well? 2 3 A. I do, yes. A large part of my consulting 24 business is working with attorneys. 25 Q. And not just attorneys, but would you consult 26 with -- if someone at Monsanto has a technical problem or 27 something like that? 28 A. Yes, I do remain on -- basically I'm the 1 I do spend about half my time in that office, yes. 2 Q. All right. New, tell us a little, if you would. 3 Dr. Kaley, about Monsanto and the company it was when you 4 worked there. 5 What was the basic business of Monsanto? 6 A. Well, the basic business? There was no basic 7 business. Monsanto -- I don't remember exactly, but as his 8 Honor has mentioned, Monsanto was a very big company. They 9 had lots of divisions. So the one I was most closely 10 associated with was the chemicals division, but they also had 11 an agricultural division. And that's what has devolved into 12 the new Monsanto Company, what is Monsanto today. 13 They had an electronics division. They had a plastics 14 division, a fibers division. So it was a very broad-based 15 company. 16 Q. And where was it headquartered? 17 A. It was headquartered in St. Louis. 18 Q. And who were the competitors of Monsanto? 19 A. Well, all of the big-name chemical companies 20 that you've probably heard of. Dew, DuPont, Stauffer, which is 21 no longer there, others. But Dow and DuPont are probably the 22 ones that come to mind and the ones that still exist, although 2 3 they're merging so -- 24 Q. Yes. As we've recently heard. 25 A. The world shrinks. 26 Q. Major products that we might recognize? 27 A. Well, I think the major product is probably 28 Roundlfp, the herbicide Roundlfp, widely used. 11 13 1 person -- if the neiv Monsanto Company, the one that exists 2 today, gets questions about PCBs, those questions are referred 3 to me to deal with. So, yes, I certainly do consult on that 4 basis with Monsanto Company also. 5 Q. As a consultant I'm sure you're paid? 6 A. I am. 7 Q. And how much are you paid? 8 A. I'm paid $16,000 a month. 9 Q. And does that fluctuate? Coes that change or is 10 it 16,000 a month and that's your contract? 11 A. That's rry agreement, 16,000 a month, whether I 12 work a lot or sometimes I'm on vacation and I work a little, I 13 still get paid that amount. 14 Q. Why $16,000? 15 A. That was about what I was making when I worked 16 with Monsanto. That is the agreement, that I wasn't going to 17 get a raise, but I wasn't going to get a pay cut either. So 18 that was the agreement that was worked out. 19 Q. Who do you submit your invoices to? 20 A. I submit to the Husch Blackwell law firm. 21 Q. And Mr. Miller's firm? 22 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. And Ms. Buck's firm as well? 24 A. Exactly, yes. 25 Q. And where is youroffice? 26 A. Well, I work both at home, but I do have an 27 office at the Husch Blackwell firm. They've been very 28 gracious to give me access to an office and support there, so 1 Q. How about when you were working there. What 2 were the major products? 3 A. Well, Roundlfp was one of them, actually. 4 Monsanto made the interlayer in your car windshield. 5 There is actually a thin layer of plastic between two layers 6 of glass, so that if, unfortunately, someone is in an 7 accident, the windshield doesn't shatter into little shards. 8 It may crack but it stays together. 9 Monsanto manufactures that, and Solutia today still 10 manufactures that layer of glass. They made lots of -- they 11 didn't really make a lot of off-the-shelf things you would 12 recognize because they were basically making materials -- for 13 instance, PCBs -- that were sold to other companies that 14 actually made the products themselves. 15 Q. My favorite, AstroTurf? 16 A. AstroTurf. For a while Monsanto bought the 17 company and manufactured AstroTurf. 18 Thank you for reminding me. 19 Q. I like that. 2 0 Different divisions of Monsanto, were they all managed 21 by one central management or were they under different 2 2 management? 2 3 A. Well, both. There was an overall management. 2 4 Cfoviously, the CEO was responsible for the whole 2 5 organization, but each of those divisions had their own 2 6 management organizations as well as their own sales and 2 7 research organizations. 2 8 Q. Where did PCBs fit into that? Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067713 14 16 1 A. Well, ECBs were in the chemical company. They 2 were manufactured in two plants, you may have heard, one in 3 Alabama and one in Illinois. 4 Q. And I think that division was fluid division. 5 fluid function, functional fluid? 6 A. Well, actually -- okay, so there was the 7 chemical company and then within that there were business 8 groups. Two of those were functional fluids and another group 9 was plasticizers. There was another one that was basic 10 chemicals. 11 So ECBs were generally in the functional fluids group, 12 but they also had -- the plasticizer group also had a piece of 13 that business. 14 Q. Okay. So in the functional fluid group, did 15 they have their own sales force? 16 A. Yes, they did, certainly. 17 Q. And their own management, I guess you said? 18 A. Right. Yes. 19 Q. Now, was it important that each group develop 20 their own expertise about their particular products? 21 A. Yes, and the uses of their products. 22 Their products and then the uses of their own products. 2 3 yes. 24 Q. Now, ECBs was not the only product of the 25 functional fluids division, correct? 26 A. Oh, no, not by a long shot. It was actually a 27 fairly small piece of that company. 28 Q. And the overall business of Monsanto, how much 1 A. And then plasticizers were about 9 percent. 2 Q. They've heard from Dr. Feitman about that? 3 A. They've heard a great deal about those. Yes. 4 Q. So back to the functional fluids division, did 5 that division have its own chamist? 6 A. Yes, it did. 7 Q. Did it have a laboratory? 8 A. Yes. They were in the same research 9 laboratories, but they had different rooms in the building. 10 Excuse me. 11 Q- No prcblem. Do you want some more water? 12 A. No. I'm sipping away. 13 Q. You were losing your voice yesterday. 14 A. I was, yes. 15 Q. Now, so back in the day, back when you were 16 first starting in the '70s, Monsanto had business units? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And functional fluids was one of those business 19 units? 20 A. Right. That's a good way of putting it. Yes. 21 Q. They had executives and they had salespeople, we 22 talked about? 2 3 A. Yes. 24 Q. Did they have a public relations department? 25 A. Well, the public relations is what they would 26 have called a corporate department. So there wasn't a 27 separate public relations department in functional fluids, but 28 there was a person in that group that had primary 15 17 1 of the overall business of Monsanto were the manufacture of 2 ECBs back when they were being made? 3 A. As best we can tell, it was about 1 percent of 4 the overall business of the large company. 5 Q. Okay. And the jury has seen this slide before. 6 We've broken out that 1 percent into the various uses. 7 Tell us just quickly what the uses were of the 8 1 percent of the total sales. And you can just walk down the 9 list. 10 A. All right. I'll start at the bottom and move 11 up, because by far the biggest use was for electrical 12 equipment. 13 Monsanto sold most of their ECBs to the General 14 Electrics and the Westinghouses and other manufacturers of 15 electrical equipment. 16 There was another line. As you can see, about 17 6 percent were into hydraulic fluids. Again, that was a very 18 small piece of the hydraulic fluid market. 19 I'm sure you've heard ECBs are non-flanrnable, so the 20 products that were in the hydraulic fluids were for use in 21 foundries or places where there was molten metal or where a 22 fire would be disastrous if a hydraulic line broke. 2 3 Heat transfer fluids, we're going to talk about a 24 little bit later, I think, but that was about 1 percent or 25 1 and a half percent. 26 Rather than explain now, I think we have a slide later 27 that we worked on. 28 Q. Sure. 1 responsibility. 2 The same thing would be true of the medical department. 3 For example, there was a corporate medical department, not one 4 within a division. 5 Q. How about product development and improvement. 6 Were those folks separated out? 7 A. Oh, absolutely. They went along with their 8 business group. 9 Q. All right. And let's change gears a little bit 10 for our discussion today. 11 You are a chemist as we started? 12 A. I am. 13 Q. Not just a chemist but an analytical chemist? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. What is an analytical chemist? 16 A. Well, analytical chemistry is a branch of 17 chemistry that basically does two things. It tries to figure 18 out what something is and it tries to figure how much of that 19 something is somewhere. 20 So it' s a question of how much and what is it. 21 Q. And you don't do this on a pounds level or a 22 tons level. What level do you lcok at things on? 2 3 A. Well, sometimes you do it on that kind of a 24 level. But generally when I was working we were working at 25 parts per million and parts per billion, very small levels of 26 materials and various samples. 27 Q. Now, have chemists always been able to work at 28 the parts per million or parts per billion? They're smaller Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067714 18 20 1 parts now, right? 2 A. Yes. We're down to parts per trillion and down 3 to parts per quadrillion, believe it or not, and they're 4 pushing it even further. 5 Q. So have chemists been able to do that always? 6 A. No, that has developed really through the 2000s 7 and really into the -- I mean, through the 1900s into the 8 2000s. It continues to develop. As I said, they keep pushing 9 it further and further. 10 So in the early days, in the 1930s and 1940s, they were 11 looking at percent levels. 12 By the 1960s they were thousands of parts per million. 13 down to the parts per billion. So it just keqos getting 14 smaller and smaller. 15 Q. New, you talked about parts per billion. I'm 16 trying to give the jury sane idea of what that means. 17 I think you told me one second in 32 years? 18 A. That's one of the -- there are a number a 19 analogies like that. That's one of than. 20 I think, you know, a shot of gin in a swimming pool of 21 tonic or something like that. 22 There are a number of those, but it' s a very small 2 3 amount. 24 Q. You went to the alcohol and I went to time. 25 A. Yeah. That's why my beard is gray. 26 The one I like to use, if you think about an M&M, an 27 M&M weighs about what we call 1 gram, which is a very small 28 amount. 1 A. No, there's not. It was the starting material. 2 but by the time it became FCBs, they mere gone. 3 Q. All right. So the jury has heard a term 4 biphenyl. Is that the same thing as a diphenyl? 5 A. Yes. In the early days of the 1930s and '40s, 6 it was called diphenyl. Di means two. But for same reason 7 unknown, the name evolved into biphenyl, again meaning two, as 8 in bicycle. 9 Q. Are diphenyls used today? Is that term used at 10 all today? 11 A. I haven't seen it for many, many years. So I 12 don't think so. 13 Q. And are biphenyls used for anything today? 14 A. Yes, yes. 15 Solutia, the company, the former chonical company. 16 stills makes biphenyl itself, not FCBs, but biphenyl itself. 17 It's used as a heat transfer fluid. 18 Q. We're going to talk about heat transfer fluids 19 in a little bit. 20 Now, what's a polychlorinated biphenyl? 21 A. Well, if you have a biphenyl ring, a biphenyl is 22 two benzene rings hooked together. It's not dlbenzene, for 2 3 some reason. It's diphenyl or biphenyl. 24 If you hook two of those together, you have biphenyl. 25 And then if you start chonically adding chlorine at the 26 comers of those hexagons, then you get a polychlorinated 27 biphenyl. 28 Q. All right. Now, I think the jury has heard 19 21 1 If you cut that M&M -- if you can conceive of cutting 2 it into a million pieces, each one of those little pieces 3 which you wouldn't even be able to see would be a part per 4 million. So it's a very small amount. 5 Q. Okay. All right. So let's on Tuesday morning 6 have a little chemistry lesson, if you don't mind. 7 A. I can do that. 8 Q. What is an atom? 9 A. All right. An atom is one of the basic what 10 they call building blocks of chemistry. It's a single little 11 unit that is one element, whether it be oxygen or carbon or 12 lead. It's the smallest unit of chonistry. 13 Not really, but me're not going to go below that. 14 Q. Let's not go below an atom at the moment. 15 A. Yeah. 16 Q. What's a molecule? 17 A. If you put two atoms together, whether they are 18 the same atom or different elements, that's a molecule. 19 So a molecule is two or more atoms hooked together. 20 Q. And what' s a compound? 21 A. Well, a compound is basically the same thing. 22 You usually think of a compound as a bigger amount, but 2 3 a compound is -- can be made up of molecules. 24 So a compound is a conglomeration of similar molecules. 25 Q. What is a benzene ring? 26 A. Well, a benzene ring is a structure that -- it's 27 conceived of as a hexagon. It's made up of six carbons. 28 Q. Is there benzene in FCBs? 1 there are 209 different -- I think the word is congeners. 2 right? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. What is a congener? 5 A. Well, it's just a term that means a member of a 6 family. 7 Q. Now, the jury has also heard Aroclor 1254 and 8 Arcelor 1242. 9 What does that mean? What do those numbers mean? 10 A. Well, Arcelor was the trade name, Monsanto's 11 trade name for its FCBs. And I think we'll talk about it. 12 You may have heard F3Ts, polychlorinated terphenyl, product 13 line. So it was just a Monsanto trade name. 14 It actually came from two terms, aromatic, which means 15 smell, obviously, because things with benzene rings in thorn 16 often have an odor. FCBs really didn't very much, but some of 17 thorn do. 18 So it was aromatic and then it had chlorine. So it's 19 Arcelor. That's where that term came from. 20 The numbers were the different products in that 21 particular line. 22 Q. And did the 12 mean something and the 54 or the 2 3 42 mean something? 24 A. Well, the 12 was basically a code name for the 25 FCB products. And then there was also a 5400 series, which 26 was the PCI products. 27 And then the second two numbers were the percent by 28 weight of chlorine in that material. Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067715 22 24 1 So a 1242 had a little bit of chlorine on the rings. 2 A 1254 had kind of a moderate amount. 3 And a 1260 or higher had lots of chlorines on the 4 rings. 5 Q. So the higher nuttber would be the higher 6 chlorinated ones? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. All right. What is an organochlorine? 9 A. Well, organic chemistry, another one of the 10 branches of chemistry, is the branch of chemistry that 11 involves carbon. 12 So we are all carbon-based people. Animals are 13 carbon-based. Plants are carbon-based. Anything that has 14 carbon in the structure except for something like coal or 15 diamond, where it's only carbon -- if it's carbon and 16 something else, it's an organic compound. 17 If it has chlorine on that compound, it becomes an 18 organochlorine. 19 Q. All right. Would you do a little drawing 20 for me. 21 A. I would be happy to. 22 MR. UPSHAW: Your Honor, I can move the easel there 2 3 or -- 24 THE COURT: However you want to. 25 Q. BY MR. UPSHAW: Dr. Kaley, why don't you come 26 over here and make it easy. 27 I'll put this over here. 28 We do have a marker. It's up here. 1 to a chemical makes it a different structure? 2 A. Right. In this particular case, yes. 3 It clearly makes a different structure, but it also can 4 have widely different properties. 5 Q. Now, you're not saying it's easy to change water 6 into rocket fuel, are you? 7 A. No. The point I'm trying to make is you can't 8 just look at two structures and say -- while they pretty much 9 look alike, you can't say they're the same because they're 10 not. 11 Q. Under that would you draw a biphenyl that we've 12 been talking about. 13 A. Ml right. I'm going to start first with -- if 14 you don't mind, we talked about what benzene is. I was just 15 going to start with benzene. 16 Q. Ml right. 17 A. So benzene -- each of these comers is a carbon 18 atom. 19 So benzene is usually drawn, or always drawn as a 20 hexagon, with one hydrogen at each comer, one hydrogen 21 attached to each carbon. 22 So to get the biphenyl, we put both of those together. 2 3 Monsanto did that and still dees that. 24 From here on, I'm going to do a little chemist cheating 25 trick. I'm going to use a hexagon with a circle in the middle 26 to mean benzene. 27 So you won't see this anymore. You'll see the 28 shorthand. 2 3 25 1 Okay. Let me hand this to you. 2 THE COURT: Mr. Upshaw, on the bottom right comer, 3 will you place an 883 with a circle around it. It will be 4 marked as Exhibit 883. 5 MR. UPSHAW: Okay. 6 (Exhibit 883, Chart, marked for I.D.) 7 MR. UPSHAW: There we go. 8 Q. Ml right. Can you show the jury, just to start 9 out with, dihydrogen oxide. 10 A. Ml right. So oxide means oxygen, and di means 11 two hydrogens. 12 So that is the dihydrcgen oxide. 13 Q. Co we know that by something else? 14 A. We do. We call that water. 15 Q. Ml right. Now, what happens when you put one 16 more oxygen atom on that? 17 A. Right. 18 If you make a structure that looks like that, very 19 similar looking, just the addition of one oxygen, that beccmes 20 a chemical we know as hydrogen peroxide. 21 You probably have some hydrogen peroxide in your 22 medicine cabinet. If you get a cut, you put a little on and 2 3 it bubbles because it's very active. It's very reactive. 24 That's a very small solution or a very weak solution of 25 hydrogen peroxide. 26 Actually hydrogen peroxide itself can be used as rocket 27 fuel, so it's a lot different than water. 28 Q. So adding just one molecule or adding one item 1 So if we put our two benzene rings together, we get 2 biphenyl. 3 Q. And please shew chlorinated. 4 A. That's a combination Z and Y. 5 As I mentioned earlier, to make PDBs or chlorinated 6 biphenyls you basically -- not basically -- you actually react 7 this biphenyl molecule with chlorine. And the reaction starts 8 to add chlorines at various positions on these rings. 9 So you can start out to get -- just put one chlorine on 10 the biphenyl, two, three, all the way up to 10. 11 And they can be in different positions. So you could 12 have one here or you could have it here or here. 13 That's how you get up to the 209 different FCBs. 14 It depends on hew many chlorines are on the ring and 15 where they are. 16 Each one of those chemicals is a different chanical. 17 It has different properties. And that's what determines how 18 FCBs behave in use or if they happen to get into the 19 environment. 20 Q. Now, the jury has heard briefly about congener 21 209, which is 10. 22 A. Right. 2 3 Q. And hew do you say that? 24 A. That's deca, meaning 10, decachlorobiphenyl. 25 Q. The jury has also heard a little bit about DDT. 26 Can you draw that structure and tell us why those two 27 are different? 28 A. Sure. Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067716 26 28 1 Q. If you can get both on the same page, if you 2 can. 3 A. I'll squeeze it down here. 4 Q. I'll try to stay close to the podium. 5 A. All right. So this is the structure for the 6 pesticide DDT. They stand for a very long chanical name. I'm 7 not going to trouble you with that, but that's the structure. 8 Q. And what's the major difference? 9 A. Well, the major difference -- well, there are a 10 lot of major differences. But the major difference is that 11 the two rings are not connected together. They have this 12 other group between them. 13 And there's a little what we call a tail. That's what 14 I call it. We don't. I call it a little tail coning off 15 here, this carbon with three chlorines attached. 16 I'm sorry. I made a little error. It should be a 17 carbon with three chlorines. 18 And that little structure there is what makes DDT 19 poisonous to insects. 20 Q. So that's what kills the mosquitoes? 21 A. It is. That's what kills the mosquitoes. 22 Correct. 2 3 Q. Dr. Kaley, you can take a seat if you would. 24 A. Thank you. 25 Q. So are FCBs like a cousin or any relation to 26 DDT? 27 A. Well, I would start out by saying, based on my 28 definition, they are both organochlorines, but that's where 1 names? 2 A. I said I wasn't going to trouble you with the 3 long name, but there it is. And they have different names. 4 Q. So given all the chemicals we talked about, you 5 mentioned FCTs? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. tat is a ECT? 8 A. Well, if you look at the drawing, a FCT has -- 9 it's a three-benzene ring structure. So if you can imagine an 10 extra benzene ring hanging off biphenyl, that becomes a 11 terphenyl. 12 Then if you chlorinate that, you get polychlorinated 13 terphenyls. 14 Q. Now, to be fair, when you make FCTs, is there a 15 byproduct from that manufacturing process? 16 A. Yes. When you make biphenyl -- I'm sorry. When 17 you make triphenyl, it's basically the same process as when 18 you make biphenyl. So that -- you have to have more heat and 19 you have to react it longer, but when you make that reaction. 20 there is a little bit you of biphenyl left in that 21 polychlorinated terphenyl. 22 If you go on to chlorinate that terphenyl, then the 2 3 biphenyl also gets chlorinated, obviously. So there's about 24 1 percent FCBs in the FCT products. 25 Q. Is that considered a trace amount? 26 A. Yeah. It wjould be a trace amount or, you know. 27 a small byproduct, yes. 28 Q. Now, when did Monsanto find out that this 27 29 1 the similarities end. 2 Q. All right. And talk to us about what we're 3 seeing here. 4 A. Yes. We put together a slide to point out the 5 major differences. 6 DDT was designed to be poisonous to insects, whereas 7 PCBs were designed or turned out to be very useful for fire 8 safety and durability. 9 DDT was designed to be put out into the environment. I 10 don't know whether we've seen pictures, but those of you with 11 gray beards like mine ranarber in the old days there used to 12 be trucks going through neighborhoods spraying DDT in the 13 neighborhoods. It was widespread. It was spread by farmers. 14 by airplanes. 15 FCBs were designed not to be used that way. They were 16 designed to stay put in whatever product they were put in. 17 whether it was sealed in a transformer or locked into a 18 plastic structure. 19 The DDT was applied directly to crops. And as I 20 mentioned, FCBs were largely contained in products, whether it 21 was transformers or plastics. 22 DDT was very toxic to insects. Obviously that's why it 2 3 was used. And PCBs have a low acute toxicity, meaning really 24 to get an immediate effect you have to have lots and lots of 25 PCBs. 26 Q. And they had different names? 27 A. Pardon? 28 Q. It looks like they used to have very different 1 process created the -- when they were making FCTs, that a 2 trace amount of FCBs was also being created? 3 A. They learned that in the late 1960s. 4 Q. Now, do all chemicals that are produced get into 5 the environment to some extent? 6 A. Yes, they do. 7 Q. And can you talk to us a little bit about the 8 difference between an effluent and widespread contamination? 9 What is the difference in those terms? 10 A. Well, an effluent is basically a discharge from 11 a manufacturing facility. 12 So in the older days, in the '30s and '40s and '50s, 13 even somewhat into the '60s, often chanical plants just 14 discharged their waste directly into a river, or. 15 unfortunately, into the ocean. 16 So that is a plant effluent. 17 You still have a plant effluent today, but it gees 18 through usually treatment systems at the chemical plants 19 themselves or treatment systems in a municipal -- a city 20 sewage treatment plant. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. So an effluent is basically something coming out 2 3 of the plant, whereas a disbursement, a widespread use, it's 24 intentionally spread throughout the environment, like DDT was. 25 Q. Biodegradation, what is biodegradation? 26 A. Well, most chemicals, or a lot of chemicals. 27 when you put them into the environment if they get into a 28 water system or a seiA/age treatment plant, they biodegrade. Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067717 3 0 32 1 The little bugs in the system will basically eat up those 2 materials. That's the whole principle of a seiA/age treatment 3 plant. 4 All our sewage gees to a treatment plant where they 5 cultivate bacteria basically to eat up those wastes and turn 6 them into harmless products. 7 That occurs naturally in the environment. So a 8 chemical that biodegrades, if it gets into the environment. 9 will -- microbes will find it and turn it into harmless 10 products. 11 So that's the concept of biodegradation. 12 Q. Now, was this an issue in, say, the '30s, '40s 13 or '50s? 14 A. Not really. People weren't thinking along those 15 lines in those years. 16 As I said, the plants, a lot of plants, and Monsanto's 17 included, were discharging directly into rivers and streams. 18 Q. Was there anything about the chordcal properties 19 and uses of FCBs that would have led Monsanto to conclude that 20 FCBs would not be widespread in the environment? 21 A. No. We were thinking that -- as I said, they 22 were either contained in containers in transformers or 2 3 something or they were locked into our products, so we didn't 24 really, you know, think about the concqot of getting 25 widespread into the environment. 26 Q. So are FCBs chonically resistant? 27 A. Most FCBs are, yes. That was one of the 28 properties that made than useful. 1 your hand gets cool because it's evaporating so fast. 2 PCBs or other things, if you put that dish of FCBs on 3 your counter and came back a month, a year later, you wouldn't 4 be able to tell that any of it evaporated. They would all 5 still be there. 6 Q. Would you call them virtually indestructible? 7 What does that mean? 8 A. Well, some of them are. That's a term, I think. 9 that has been used. 10 The higher chlorinated ones are -- they can be 11 destroyed. They're not totally indestructible, but under 12 normal use conditions and apparently in the environment, the 13 higher chlorinated ones are pretty much indestructible. 14 Q. Okay. Are these the very properties that made 15 FCBs good products for industry? 16 A. Yeah. That's exactly the point. That's right. 17 That's why they were used in the applications they were used 18 in. 19 Q. Okay. So let's move forward. 20 Now, this is just another version of a bar, right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Okay. What were the main uses of FCBs? 2 3 A. Well, the big selling point, the primary 24 advantage of FCBs over other chemicals that were available was 25 that they were non-flammable. And that's what really -- 26 that's really why the electrical industry used then and the 27 hydraulic fluids, there were obviously other hydraulics 28 fluids. Heat transfer fluids, there were always other heat 31 33 1 Q. How about heat-resistant? 2 A. Yes. That's essentially one of the most 3 important properties that they were heat-resistant. 4 Q. Are they soluble in water? 5 A. Not very much, no. They are -- generally you 6 would see them called insoluble. 7 Now, like many terms in science or in life, actually. 8 that's relative. There are a little bit -- there is a little 9 bit of solubility and it depends on how many chlorines are on 10 the ring, for example. 11 Q. So it depends on which congener or which 12 chemical you're talking about? 13 A. Which congener, yes. 14 Q. They're very stable? 15 A. They are stable, most of them, some of then more 16 than others. Again, with a lot of these properties, the more 17 chlorines you have on the ring, the more they are stable. 18 heat-resistant, et cetera. 19 Q. Is that true for low volatility? 20 A. Yes, the same. 21 Q. What dees that mean, volatility? 22 A. Volatility means evaporate. 2 3 So if you put a little dish of water, a little glass of 24 water on your kitchen counter and come back a day or so later. 25 the water will be gone. It will have evaporated because it 26 has relatively high volatility. 27 If you put rubbing alcohol in your hand, it evaporates 28 almost Immediately. It has very high volatility. In fact. 1 transfer fluids. But the FCBs had this non-flammability, and 2 that's what made then so useful. 3 Q. Let's stqp back a little bit. 4 We've heard from -- the jury has heard from 5 Dr. Feitman. She showed this slide. It was questioned as to 6 the source of the slide, which says Dr. Vorhees' report. 7 You've seen that report? 8 A. Yes, I have. 9 Q. Okay. Is this information from her report? 10 A. Yes, it is. 11 Q. I think the jury saw a draft rqport, but you've 12 seen both the draft and the actual final? 13 A. Right. And the data itself were actually taken 14 in a report that was actually issued by the EPA. 15 Q. Now, primarily how were FCBs used by Monsanto 16 customers in the '30s and '40s. 17 A. Mostly by far, I would say the 77 percent of 18 electrical equipment was much higher in that time frame. That 19 was really the first product line that really developed and 20 was used. 21 So I don't know the percentage, but it was almost all 22 electrical equipment. 2 3 Q. And when we say used by, used in electrical 24 equipment, you're talking about transformers and capacitors? 25 A. That's correct. 26 Q. All right. And when FCBs are being used in a 27 formula in that way, what are they called? 28 A. They're called dielectric fluids. Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067718 34 3 6 1 Q. Can you explain what that is. 2 A. Basically a dielectric fluid, dielectric is a 3 measure of how electrically resistant they are. 4 One of the other useful properties of PCBs is they 5 don't conduct electricity, so they can be used around high 6 voltage and not cause shorts in a transformer or something 7 like that. That's another one of their advantages. 8 Q. Who developed the use of dielectric fluids in a 9 transformer? 10 A. That was actually developed by General Electric. 11 There had been a number of disastrous transformer fires and 12 explosions in the '20s and '30s. And General Electric was 13 looking for a non-flammable fluid to use in their 14 transformers. 15 Q. We're going to hear from a Dr. Kytcmaa, who is 16 going to talk more about transformer fires. 17 Who holds the patent for dielectric fluids? 18 A. General Electric -- for the use of those fluids. 19 General Electric, yes. 20 Q. Now, did Monsanto make dielectric fluids to the 21 specifications of the patent holder. General Electric? 22 A. Yes, they certainly did. 2 3 General Electric -- a guy named Frank Clark really 24 developed that application. And they had very strict rules. 25 specifications or really rules about how to make those 26 materials pure enough so that General Electric could use them. 27 Q. All right. Are we showing from 1941 some 28 General Electric specifications for 1254? 1 Q. Co you rauarber what the trade name was for GE's 2 dielectric fluids that contained PCBs? 3 A. Sure. It's Pyranol. Pyre means fire, so it's 4 pyro, and no means no, so it was no fire. That's why they 5 named their fluid "no fire." 6 Q. Could Monsanto manufacture Pyranol for GE to 7 sell to other customers? 8 A. Well, actually GE didn't sell it -- well, they 9 did to some extent. But what GE did was license their 10 technology or their patents to other companies like 11 Westinghouse so that Monsanto then could manufacture and sell 12 PCBs to Westinghouse, but it was under a General Electric 13 license. 14 Q. Now, Westinghouse had its own fluids made by 15 Monsanto, didn't it? 16 A. Right. They had a different trade name. 17 Correct. 18 Q. And what was their trade name? 19 A. It was called Inerteen, I-N-E-R-T-E-E-N, 20 basically frcm the term inert because these fluids were inert. 21 So their trade name was Inerteen. 22 Q. And they sent their om specifications to 2 3 Monsanto, correct? 24 A. Yes, they did. 25 Q. Here's another one from 1943, as well. 26 A. Right. 27 Q. Now, did Monsanto make Inerteen for Westinghouse 28 so it could license it to other customers as well? 35 37 1 A. Correct. That's an example of the kind of 2 information that General Electric told Monsanto. You can make 3 this product, but it has to have these properties. So there 4 is chordcal properties and physical properties. 5 Q. Co you want to zoom in on this? 6 A. Pardon? 7 Q. So what you were talking about is some of the 8 properties where it says property, specification and method 9 number? 10 A. Right. You see dielectric. We talked about 11 dielectric. Specific gravity is basically a measure of how 12 much chlorine is on there. So they have to have a given 13 number of chlorine. 14 Somewhere at the bottom -- it's not here -- there is 15 probably a water specification, because water does conduct 16 electricity. As you knew, you don't tune your radio when 17 you're in the bathtub, so you don't want any water in your 18 dielectric fluids. So those are specs or rules -- 19 Q. Nobody has the radio in a bathroom. 20 A. TV. Okay. Gray beards. 21 Q. Let's look at another one, 1945. 22 Similar specifications for 1254? 2 3 A. Yes. Correct. 24 Q. All right. Did GE control the manufacture of 25 PCBs? In other words, could Monsanto manufacture PCBs for 26 dielectric fluid without GE's control? 27 A. No. GE had the exclusive patent for the use in 28 transformers. 1 A. No. I don't believe so because GE had those 2 licenses. 3 There were certainly other electrical equipuent 4 manufacturers that were licensed by GE and had their own trade 5 names, but the patents were held by GE up until the time they 6 expired. 7 Q. All right. Can you go back to slide six for a 8 second. 9 So we talked about electrical equipment. 10 Some of the other uses for safety reasons, for fire 11 reasons, I think are in the yellov? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Okay. And we talked about all of those. 14 Some of those applications, but not all, were for the 15 same thing, fire protection? 16 A. Yes, clearly. 17 Where it says hydraulic fluids, the most widely used 18 hydraulic fluid is oil. 19 If you go to a filling station, I guess they still have 20 hydraulic lifts in a car service station. Those are oils. 21 But PCBs, I think I did mention briefly, were developed 22 in conjunction with foundries where they had hot molten metal 2 3 where, again, you wanted the flame resistance or the 24 non-flammability of PCBs. 25 Q. And specifically that was for the auto industry. 26 right? 27 A. The auto industry and the metallurgical 28 industry. Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067719 3 8 40 1 Reynolds Aluminum actually developed -- you referred to 2 Pydraul, 'which was the trade name for Monsanto's hydraulic 3 fluids, were actually developed in conjunction with Alcoa, I 4 believe, the aluminum company. 5 Q. Not to ignore it, but I think Dr. Feitman talked 6 about this a lot. So when ECBs were being used in 7 plasticizers, was it again for some of the properties we just 8 talked about? 9 A. Yes. Clearly it was for those properties. 10 including flame resistance or flame retardants in some cases. 11 Q- Let's talk a little bit about NCR and carbonless 12 copy paper 13 Who was N3R? 14 A. NCR was a company -- is a company. In the '50s 15 and '60s they were widely known for carbonless copy paper. It 16 was National Cash Register. Today they make AIM's. 17 They've moved on. 18 Q. Who developed the use of Aroclor 1254 in 19 carbonless copy paper? 20 A. Actually it was Aroclor 1242. 21 Q. I'm sorry. 22 A. And that use was developed by NCR. 2 3 Again, they had the patent for that use. 24 Q. So 1242 is a lower chlorinated than what I said. 25 1254? 26 A. Correct. 27 Q. And they used 1242. 28 Did they use any others that you're aware of? 1 A. Right. There was -- the company that actually 2 developed the process for biphenyl itself and then for ECBs 3 was a company in Alabama called Swann Chemical Company. That 4 was the owner's name. 5 And obviously in the 1930s times were tough for people 6 and for companies. Swann was about to go under, so Monsanto 7 bought that company. 8 Q. Okay. So from 1931 to '39, ECBs are tested for 9 toxicity by university scientists? 10 A. Yes, that's correct. 11 Q. Does this include some of the names the jury has 12 already heard. Dr. Drinker and others? 13 A. Yes. 14 In the 1930 time frame there were seme acute -- we 15 talked about acute, short-term health effects, serious health 16 effects noted among some workers. 17 So Monsanto and other companies contracted with these 18 universities to study the FCB toxicity. 19 Q. All right. And so Dr. Flinn was frem Columbia? 20 A. That is my recollection, yes. 21 Q. And Dr. Drinker was from Harvard? 22 A. Correct. 2 3 Q. And they tested -- they were asked to make some 24 tests after some workers got sick; is that the story? 25 A. Right. There were basically two incidents that 26 really triggered these studies. 27 One was an outbreak of a disease called chloracne at 28 the Monsanto manufacturing or at the time the Swann 3 9 41 1 A. Not that I'm aware of. 2 Q. So they used 1242 exclusively? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Right? 5 Is 1242 found in the environment? 6 A. It wasn't at that particular time. 7 When the ECBs in the environment story broke, so to 8 speak, they were finding higher chlorinated materials, not the 9 low-chlorinated materials like 1242. 10 Q. Okay. Now, did Monsanto know ECBs were 11 widespread in the environment like chlorinated pesticides were 12 prior to the late the 1960 -- '66? 13 A. No, they did not. 14 Q. Why was that? 15 A. Well, I think we touched on it before, that 16 their use. pattern and their physical properties would suggest 17 that there was no reason to expect them to be widespread in 18 the environment. 19 Q. Okay. So you put together a little timeline 20 here for us to follow. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And let's go through that if we can. 2 3 So 1934, GE obtained a patent for the PCB electrical 24 uses to prevent explosions and fires. 25 You talked to us about that, right? 26 A. Yes, we did. 27 Q. What's happening in 1935 with Monsanto buying -- 28 I think it s Swann? 1 manufacturing plant. 2 Chloracne is a very serious form of acne. That was 3 investigated at Columbia. 4 Q. And what did they find? 5 A. They found that Monsanto or Swann had changed 6 the benzene supplier, really, and that this new supply of 7 benzene had an Impurity in it that when it went through the 8 process was causing this chloracne. It wasn't the ECBs. It 9 was the chlorinated Impurity. 10 Q. And then if the jury happens to see documents. 11 that Impurity was called? 12 A. It was a styrene Impurity. 13 Q. Now, there were three worker deaths at another 14 plant and that was investigated as well? 15 A. Right. Yes. This other plant was making wire 16 coatings for largely military uses. 17 My understanding is that that process was a very 18 high-exposure process. 19 These guys would be standing, basically straddling 20 tanks, trays of these mixtures that were called Halowaxes and 21 running the cables through these heated materials. So it was 22 very dirty process. 2 3 Unfortunately three workers in that process contracted 24 liver disease and passed away. 25 Q. Now, did all three workers work with ECBs? 26 A. No. There were -- sane of the Halowaxes had 27 some ECBs in them, some did not. 28 So I think only two of than actually had ECBs in the Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067720 42 44 1 mixtures, but they weren't FCBs pure anyway. They always had 2 the naphthalenes in them. 3 Q. And naphthalene is another chanical? 4 A. Right. Yes. It's another two-ring benzene 5 structure, but it's totally different than biphenyl. 6 Q. Back in the '30s did Monsanto have other 7 testing, I guess, above and beyond those two on ECBs in their 8 toxicity, correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And what conclusion was drawn from all that 11 testing, Doctor? 12 A. Well, primarily from the Drinker studies, but 13 the conclusion was drawn that the FCBs were only toxic in the 14 animal studies at very elevated temperatures. 15 So if you control the tarperature and control exposure. 16 they can be used and manufactured safely. 17 Q. All right. So we talked about this a little 18 bit. 19 Just to go through this briefly, tell us what you want 20 to show -- tell the jury what you're showing here. 21 A. This basically summarizes what I said before. 22 There were health effects, yellow atrophy of the liver 2 3 and chloracne, which is a very serious skin disease. 24 Those early on were both attributed to FCBs, thought to 25 have been caused by FCBs. 26 But the research in the '30s showed that the yellow 27 atrophy of the liver was basically caused by the naphthalenes. 28 and the chloracne was caused by the styrene impurity. 1 A. Right. 1268 was a pure FCB. 2 It was tested -- I don't know how -- 3 Q. If you can explain what you mean. 4 THE COURT: One at a time. 5 MR. UPSHAW: All right. 6 THE WITNESS: Sorry, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Wait for a question. 8 Q. BY MR. UPSHAW: Why don't you explain the 9 different mixtures and then we'll clarify. 10 A. Okay. In the first Drinker study. Dr. Drinker 11 thought he was testing a FCB, pure FCB, something he thought 12 was 1268. 13 It turned out in the first paper to be quite toxic. 14 That didn't make sense to Monsanto based on their experience 15 with their workers. So they asked Dr. Drinker to work -- to 16 do specifically seme work on Monsanto products to test the 17 real 1268, which turned out to be non-toxic. 18 The earlier material was then found to have been 19 mislabeled and was found to have been that mixture of FCBs and 20 FSTs. 21 Q. Now, 1268, does it contain each of the congeners 22 that are listed here that have been at issue in this case? 2 3 Can you see that? 24 A. Yes, it has seme content of every one of those. 25 yes. 26 THE COURT: Indicating 845, Exhibit 845. 27 MR. UPSHAW: 845. Yes. 28 Q. Now, the jury has heard Dr. DeGrandchamp say 4 3 45 1 So the studies show it was not FCBs that were causing 2 the illness, but FCBs were also studied. 3 So the studies actually established safe working 4 conditions for FCBs. 5 Q. And Dr. Drinker publicized this information. 6 correct? 7 A. Yes. He published a paper where he said 8 basically what I've said here. 9 Q. All right. Now, Dr. Markowitz testified that 10 Monsanto knew as early as the 1930s that the chemical FCT 11 contained at least 1 percent of FCBs because of Dr. Drinker's 12 studies in '37, '38, '39, those papers; is that true? 13 A. No, that's not true. There is a mistake in one 14 document which could lead somebody to magbe think that, but 15 it's clear that that is not the case. 16 Q. What was the mixture actually -- the formulation 17 that Dr. Drinker was actually testing? 18 A. Well, he was actually testing a mixture. It was 19 about half FCBs and half PCTs. It was called 4465, Aroclor 20 4465. 21 So rather than being one or the other, it was a mixture 22 of those two groups of Arcclors. 2 3 Q. Right. And is that the conclusion from that '38 24 paper? 25 A. Well, this is a different -- yeah, that's the 26 conclusion frou the paper, but this actual -- this slide 27 actually refers to a different material. 28 Q. Different material. 1 that 1268 is not carcinogenic. 2 Are you aware of that testimony? 3 A. I am aware of that testimony. 4 Q. Did Monsanto take what it learned from 5 Dr. Drinker and Dr. Flinn and let people know what they were 6 saying and advise its customers? 7 A. Yes, they did. 8 Q. So they provided warnings? 9 A. They did. They provided warnings and labels on 10 their products. 11 Q. Okay. So what are we looking at here. 12 Dr. Kaley? 13 A. Well, this is actually an internal letter or an 14 internal memo within Monsanto. 15 Basically if you'll drop to the bottom paragraph. 16 Dr. Kelly was the medical director. And Dr. Kelly was saying 17 that we ought to use what we learned frcm the Drinker stud/ to 18 put on our labels and put in our product bulletins. 19 What they learned were the first three paragraphs, that 20 if you're exposed to Aroclor at high temperatures or have 21 repeated oral ingestion at high levels, it will lead to 22 toxicity. You may get chloracne. 2 3 If you use ventilation to protect from these exposures. 24 they can be used safely. 25 Q. And it actually went into -- this information 26 actually vent into what they called an Aroclor booklet? 27 A. Product bulletins, yes. 28 Q. Product bulletins. Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067721 46 48 1 Did Monsanto know anything about ECBs that they 2 excluded or suppressed frau customers or the public? 3 A. No. They were transmitting the information they 4 had to their customers and to the public. 5 Q. Now, during this time were there any signals 6 that workers had unusual rates of cancer? 7 A. No, there were not. 8 Q. How about customers? GE, Westinghouse? 9 A. No, there was no such information. 10 Q. Dr. Kaley, based upon your review of the 11 information, the documents you've seen -- we didn't talk about 12 that so let me step back for a second. We should have talked 13 about that earlier. 14 You've looked at a number of documents, correct? 15 A. Yes. Throughout my career I've looked at lots 16 of documents 17 Q. Thousands, tens of thousands? 18 A. Certainly thousands, but -- I don't know about 19 tens but certainly thousands over the 40 years I've been 20 dealing with them. 21 Q. Now, Monsanto has a document archive, correct? 22 A. Yes, they do. 2 3 Q. And you have access to that? 24 A. I do. 25 Q. Was there a time where you were under the 26 impression that you didn't have access to that? 27 A. That was my understanding, yes, that I did not 28 have direct access to go in and shuffle the papers. 1 the same Dr. Kelly that you met? 2 A. Yes. 3 Dr. Kelly had a very long career at Monsanto. Yes. 4 Q. Okay. Based upon all that, what was the 5 relative size compared to GE of Monsanto back in the '30s, 6 relatively? 7 A. Roughly, I think Monsanto was about on^tenth 8 the size of General Electric. 9 Q. And that would hold true for sales as well, as 10 far as you knew? 11 A. As far as I know, yes. 12 Q. Did that size difference continue or did the gap 13 increase over the '40s and the '50s? 14 A. My understanding, without really knowing the 15 numbers, my understanding is it probably increased 16 significantly. 17 GE was obviously one of the largest companies in the 18 United States for most of the '60s and '70s, as I recall. 19 Q. How about Westinghouse? Where does Westinghouse 20 fit in between GE and Monsanto? 21 A. I think they were about half the size of General 22 Electric. They were certainly two to maybe four times bigger 2 3 than Monsanto. 24 Q. All right. So we saw a 1937 memo talking about 25 the Aroclor booklet. 26 Does Monsanto in the '40s continue to issue warnings on 27 labels and bulletins? 28 A. Yes. 47 49 1 Q. And what you would do -- well, tell us what you 2 would do. 3 A. Well -- 4 Q. Back then when you thought you didn't have 5 access. 6 A. Right. Well, the Monsanto days there were lots 7 of documents available. I had those. 8 After I retired and became a consultant, if I had a 9 specific question about a specific issue, I would ask someone 10 in the law firm to look in the document repository and try to 11 find all the documents related to that topic. 12 Q. All right. Anytime anybody said you can't have 13 that document or we're only going to give you two of the ten 14 we found? 15 A. No, I didn't never had any reason to believe I 16 didn't get everything that was available. 17 Q. Anybody ever tell you -- any of those lawyers 18 tell you you can't go into the archives? 19 A. Not that I can recall. It was just my 20 understanding. 21 Q. So when that understanding was clarified, you 22 had total access? 2 3 A. Yes, I do now. 24 Q. Can you look at anything you want to look at? 25 A. I can and I felt like I could then. I just had 26 to ask for it. 27 Q. All right. So from your review of all the 28 documents, your knowledge, your discussions with -- is this 1 Q. A long question. That's my fault. 2 Something else was happening in the '40s as well. 3 right? 4 A. Yes. There was a big war going on in the '40s. 5 Q. And during this time, did Monsanto warn 6 customers about what was going in the Aroclors and how they 7 should use Aroclors? 8 A. Yes. They always had product bulletins 9 available and were always labeling their products. Yes. 10 Q. In fact, what are we looking at here. Dr. Kaley? 11 A. This is actually one of the product bulletins. 12 actually the earliest we've ever been able to find, from 1943. 13 Q. Okay. And what does it say in that last 14 paragraph? 15 A. Well, I think, again, it repeats what they 16 learned from the Drinker studies. 17 If you have ventilation or avoid high temperatures 18 which causes the ECBs to evaporate faster, then they can be 19 used and manufactured safely. 20 So ventilate and protect your workers. 21 Q. Now, there were some questions I think to 22 Dr. Feitman about whether or not the Navy and other government 2 3 contractors were given warnings about Aroclors and their use. 24 Would they have access and be given these same exact 25 bulletins? 26 A. Sure. They would have access to the bulletins. 27 certainly. And as I said the products being shipped out of 28 the company had labels on them, so those labels conveyed safe Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067722 50 52 1 operating conditions for those materials. 2 Q. Can you confirm in the '40s that Monsanto 3 specifically 'warned against the use of FCBs in the food 4 industry? 5 A. Yes. I believe there's a bulletin that has that 6 specific information in it. 7 Q. Okay. And I think the jury has seen those. 8 That was 703 and 704, for the record. 9 I'm not going to show them again. There has been seme 10 discussion of those already. 11 But moving forward, unless you want to have some 12 comment on those. 13 A. No. I just think it's important that early on 14 it was recognized they were not to be used, you know, as a 15 food additive or in that industry. 16 Q. Okay. We'll get back to that in a little bit. 17 Monsanto continues to fund FCB toxicity testing. 18 So is there testing going on even the war effort? 19 A. Well, after the war, shortly after the war, the 20 tests were resumed, yes. 21 Q. Okay. And the jury has already heard that 22 Monsanto was decorated for its war effort, so we won't go into 2 3 that. 24 You're aware of that? 25 A. Yes, I am. 26 Q. All right. Dr. Kaley, Monsanto around this time 27 starts a cancer index. 28 A. Yes. 1 he identify a cluster of non-Hodgkin's lymphomas with anybody 2 at Monsanto? 3 A. No, there were no what I would call or what 4 you're calling a cluster of non-Hodgkin's lymphomas in any of 5 thorn. 6 Q. Including PDBs workers? 7 A. Oh, yes, definitely. 8 Q. Any liver cancers that he saw a cluster of? 9 A. Not clusters. There were liver cancers. 10 obviously. 11 Q. But nothing unusual that he -- 12 A. Right. There wasn't any grouping of liver 13 cancer associated with a particular product line or at a 14 particular plant. 15 Q. There weren't a huge number of FCB workers, were 16 there, either at Anniston or I think you said the Sauget 17 plant? 18 A. No. It required a small number of actual people 19 in the process at any one time. 20 Q. Do you recall how many? 21 A. Less than a dozen, as I recall, certainly at 22 Anniston. I don't know for sure at Krumrnrich. 2 3 I think you probably heard the Monsanto Illinois plant 24 was named the KG Krumrnrich plant. So you'll hear it called 25 WGK, the Krumrnrich plant, the Sauget plant. We kind of flip 26 back and forth. So it's all one plant. 27 Q. So there were a few workers. 28 So even one non-Hcdgkin's lymphoma would have been 51 53 1 Q. Can you explain to the jury what that is and who 2 started it. 3 A. Well, basically Dr. Kelly, who you've heard a 4 lot about and will continue, decided that it was Important to 5 understand if cancer were arising in the Monsanto workforce. 6 So he began reviewing on a monthly basis insurance 7 records from the company that insured Monsanto's workers and 8 basically started writing down every case of cancer that 9 occurred in these records and at what plant that worker worked 10 and what kind of cancer he had. 11 In some cases there's information about the job that he 12 was working at or at least seme general information. In fact. 13 most cases. 14 Q. Now, did he do a lot of work to make sure the 15 workers stayed safe as well? 16 A. Oh, yes. Monsanto was always concerned about 17 the worker safety and making sure we were doing what we were 18 telling our customers to do. 19 Q. Did he implament, like, yearly work physicals 20 for workers and other programs? 21 A. Yes. They were always yearly physicals. In 22 fact, there were yearly physicals when I worked at the 2 3 laboratory with much lower exposure than factory workers. I 24 had a yearly physical. Even the office workers had yearly 25 physicals. 26 So Monsanto was and continues to be concerned about the 27 health of its workforce. 28 Q. Now, when he was keeping this cancer index, did 1 noticeable? 2 A. Well, yeah. It would have been on the cancer 3 index, certainly, if it were in the FCB process. 4 Q. Let me change gears a little bit, if we can, and 5 talk about SC Johnson and Glo-Coat, since that's been a topic 6 that's brought up. 7 Dr. Markowitz has testified that SC Johnson used 8 Arcclors in the manufacture of its commercial Glo-Coat. Are 9 you aware of that? 10 A. That's rry understanding, yes. 11 Q. And he showed them a document which was 12 Exhibit 452, which was an annual research report that noted 13 SC Johnson had found Aroclor 1254 replaced something called 14 Congo gum and had purchased carloads of 1254. 15 Now, because SC Johnson in fact purchased some 1254, 16 are you aware of that in 1946? 17 A. I've seen that document, yes. 18 Q. It was his conclusion that SC Johnson actually 19 used it in its floor wax which was sold. 20 You've seen that document. Can you describe what an 21 annual research report is? 22 A. Well, I think from the title it certainly 2 3 indicates that it was work being done in the research 24 department to look for possible applications of Aroclors or 25 other products, for that matter. 26 It certainly didn't imply that it was being used 27 commercially for that particular use. 28 So it was probably Monsanto' s research department Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067723 54 56 1 talking about research at the SC Johnson Company. 2 Q. You looked at Monsanto's sales records and 3 attempted to determine 'whether Monsanto actually sold FCBs to 4 SC Johnson for use in its formulation of wax? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And what did you find? 7 A. Well, all indications in the sales records are 8 that there are no indications of sales of Aroclor 1254, you 9 know, as a plasticizer to SC Johnson. 10 Q. New, sales records only go back to 1958, right? 11 A. They do. That's correct. 12 Q. So what you found -- and you found this memo. 13 Can you tell us what we're looking at from 1970? 14 Can you increase that? 15 Okay. Can you see that? 16 A. That helps. 17 MR. UPSHAW: Just for the record, that's Exhibit 857, 18 your Honor. 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. 20 This is a letter from the 1970 time frame talking about 21 Johnson floor waxes and what kinds of materials Monsanto is 22 selling them. 2 3 So certainly by this time frame they are selling them 24 another plasticizer that is not a FCB. 25 Q. BY MR. UPSHAW: Okay. So talk us through this a 26 little bit. 27 It says, "As you know, Johnson manufactures floor waxes 28 using ABS and acrylic resins." 1 So what does this letter, this internal document, talk 2 about? 3 A. Well, again, this is basically the same thing. 4 shewing that we're selling hundreds of thousands of pounds of 5 this phosphate ester plasticizer to SC Johnson. 6 Wisconsin Solvents is a distributor. 7 And I don't know if it was mentioned earlier, but for 8 plasticizers, Monsanto did sell some directly to customers. 9 but most of thorn were sold through distributors, where 10 Monsanto would ship the product to the distributor, sell the 11 product to the distributor, and he would distribute it among 12 other companies in his general area. 13 So that's what the Wisconsin Solvents piece is. 14 Q. All right. And this is showing that Wisconsin 15 Solvents is selling TBEP to SC Johnson? 16 A. Yes, to SC Johnson. That would be the ultimate 17 customer. 18 Q. So than other than that 1946 research report 19 noting the application that's being researched, have you seen 20 any indication that SC Johnson ever purchased Aroclor 1254 for 21 purposes of including it in a final formulation of floor wax 22 that was sold commercially? 2 3 A. I have not, no. 24 Q. Let's go back and finish out the '40s. 25 We talked about the cancer index. There was no 26 outbreak of any NHL. 27 How about any NHL noted in the customer workforce? 28 That's GE workforce or Westinghouse's workforce or other 55 57 1 What's AES? 2 A. ABS is a kind of plastic. It's the initials of 3 the starting materials for that kind of plastic. 4 THE COURT: Do we have an exhibit number? 5 MR. UPSHAW: 827. 6 Q. And, "At the heart of this, incidentally, as you 7 know, we are selling them something like 400 million"? 8 A. No, that's actually thousand. 9 Q. "400,000 pounds of TBEP for their ABS type floor 10 waxes." 11 What is TBEP? 12 A. Well, it's another plasticizer. It's a 13 different group of plasticizers called phosphate esters. 14 They're derivatives of phosphoric acid. So it's another huge 15 group of plasticizers that Monsanto manufactured. 16 There were a number of phosphate esters. This is one 17 of thorn. 18 Q. Any PCBs in it? 19 A. No. It didn't even have chlorine in it. 20 Q. Let's look at another memo from 1968. 21 Would you, Mr. Aquino, blow up the left side for me so 22 we knew who that's from. 2 3 This is exhibit 832. This a letter from the 24 plasticizer sales department? 25 THE COURT: 832. 26 MR. UPSPAW: Yes, your Honor. 832. 27 Q. All right. And you showed the other side as 28 well. 1 customers? 2 A. No, there was none. 3 Q. Any reason to believe, given the properties and 4 uses of PCBs at the time, that PCBs were widespread in the 5 environment at the end of the '40s? 6 A. No. Again, the same considerations would have 7 applied. 8 Q. Let's go on to the '50s. 9 Monsanto continues to fund PCB toxicity studies. 10 including the Treon studies. 11 Who was Dr. Treon? 12 A. He was a toxicologist, a researcher at the 13 Kettering Institute, part of the University of Cincinnati. 14 Q. Preeminent toxicology organization at the time? 15 A. Yes. They were very highly thought of at the 16 time. Yes. 17 Q. Now, he did some studies. And what were his 18 conclusions, if you recall? 19 A. Basically he studied -- again, kind of similar 20 to Drinker, but he studied the properties of Aroclor 1242 and 21 Aroclor 1254, looking at their toxicity to a number of 22 animals, including rats and mice. And, again, was using the 2 3 PCBs at elevated temperatures in the vapor phase to do those 24 toxicity studies. 25 He found that at some high levels PCBs did cause some 26 toxicity, but at low levels that would normally be encountered 27 they were safe to use again. 28 Q. So if you tried these experiments just sitting Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067724 58 60 1 in the Petri dish in the cage with the rats, would he have 2 gotten any results? Would there have been any inhalation of 3 ECBs? 4 A. No. He had to heat the ECBs to quite high 5 temperatures to get enough vapor to get to the exposure levels 6 where there was toxicity. 7 Q. Okay. Now, Dr. Markowitz showed the jury a 8 slide that had one side, the 1955 rqoort, that was a report to 9 Monsanto. 10 Then he put a Monsanto logo in the middle and then he 11 showed a '56 report and said the mouse was missing. 12 You've heard that missing mouse story kefore, right? 13 A. I have heard about the missing mouse, yes. 14 Q. Did Monsanto ever have -- let me rqohrase that. 15 Did Monsanto have any influence or any input as to the 16 final published report of Dr. Treon that you could find? 17 A. Not that I'm aware of. 18 Researchers typically are very insistent that even no 19 matter who's paying for the study to be done that they get to 20 publish their own study. 21 Q. Now, Dr. Markowitz also suggested that Dr. Treon 22 hid the mouse that died of lyrphoma. 2 3 Did that actually happen? Was it actually in the -- 24 was that mouse identified in the 54? 25 A. Yeah. It talked that and two other mice that 26 died of natural causes. It didn't specify that it was a 27 lymphcma, but it did say it was an extraneous cause and that 28 it was rqolaced in the study so that the study could go on 1 warning, a systemic toxic effect warning? 2 A. Yes. An injury to the liver would be a systemic 3 effect. 4 Q. Let's go back a second. 5 So let's go to the '60s, and we'll start with the '60s. 6 Before I get to the '60s, though, let me drop back a 7 second. 8 Pesticides. Let me catch up. 9 We didn't talk about this before we get to pesticides. 10 Was this another example of warnings from the '60s? 11 A. Yes. This is the bulletin for capacitors, one 12 of the electrical uses of ECBs. 13 Q. And inside the bulletin it said what? 14 A. Right. Again, it says that if you neglect the 15 precautions, you might have liver damage. You might have acne 16 or actually chloracne. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. And both of those are considered to be systomic 19 diseases or systemic conditions. 20 Q. Right. Now, I asked you the question about the 21 '40s, the '30s. 22 I'm going to ask you this. In the early '60s, any 2 3 indication of an outbreak of non-Hcdgkin's lyrphoma with 24 Monsanto workers? 25 A. No. 26 Q. Or with General Electric or Westinghouse 27 workers? 28 A. None that I've ever seen. 59 61 1 with enough animals. 2 Q. And his ultimate conclusion was that FCBs could 3 be used safely? 4 A. Yes, that's correct. Yes. 5 Q. So Monsanto funds studies, about 78 of then. 6 toxicity studies in the '50s. 7 Anything unusual happening with the workforce at the 8 time? Any outbreaks of non-Hodgkin's lymphoma at all in 9 Monsanto's workforce? 10 A. No. 11 Q. How about in the workforces of General Electric 12 which is using the product or Westinghouse which is using the 13 product? 14 A. No. There was none rqoorted. 15 Q. And Monsanto continues to issue warnings on 16 product labels and bulletins during the '50s? 17 A. Absolutely, yes. 18 Q. And what are we looking at here. Dr. Kaley? 19 A. Well, this is a report on a FCB product, Aroclor 20 heaters. So we're touching on the heat transfer fluid 21 application, again, basically repeating the information that 22 we've learned from early on in Drinker, and now after Treon 2 3 that if you breathe -- excuse me, if you breathe vapors fron 24 ECBs that are heated to elevated temperatures, you can get 25 sick. 26 Certainly animals get sick and there is the possibility 27 that humans could get sick. 28 Q. And this is what you would call a systemic 1 Q. Any high or unusual rates of any lymphomas of 2 any of those workers? 3 A. No. 4 Q. So now let's go to pesticides because there was 5 some discussion on that. 6 Were pesticides ever used -- first off, are ECBs a 7 pesticide? 8 A. No. They were actually tested a little bit as 9 pesticides and they were lousy pesticides, so they are not a 10 pesticide. 11 Q. Were they considered a pesticide extender? 12 A. They were considered as possibly to be used as 13 pesticide extenders. Most of that work was with ECTs, 14 actually, not ECBs, but there was some suggestions that they 15 could be tried. 16 But, again, not any widespread use that's keen -- 17 Q. Was that for crop use or non-crop use? 18 A. Definitely for non-crop use. 19 Q. Explain to the jury what that means, crop use 20 versus non-crop use? 21 A. Well, basically a crop is something that is 22 expected eventually to end up being in either animal food or 2 3 human food. So corn, wheat, soybeans, those would be crops. 24 So they weren't used for that kind of application. 25 Something like spraying a tree for insects, that would 26 be a non-crop use. 27 Q. Okay. In fact, did Monsanto tell its customers 28 about using specifically Arcelor 5460 for non-crop use? Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067725 62 64 1 A. Right. This is one of the plasticizer bulletins 2 out of the plasticizer group. 3 Again 5460 is a polychlorinated terphenyl product. 4 That 'was the one that had been tested the most and 5 recommended. 6 They also suggested you might try sore of the ECBs, but 7 as far as we know, that never went anywhere. 8 But, again, the arphasis is non-crop use. 9 Q. Now, there was an organization that experimented 10 with 5460 back in the '60s, right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Who was that? 13 A. That was the U.S. Department of Agriculture that 14 actually did sore of the early studies. 15 Q. Did that application ever develop into anything? 16 A. Not that we have ever been able to determine. 17 no. 18 Q. Were they the first ones to experiment or 19 suggest the use of 5460 as a pesticide or insecticide 20 extender? 21 A. Well, they were certainly the first ones to 22 publish in a scientific journal that that use was being 2 3 investigated yes. 24 Q. Was there ever any recommendation by anyone for 25 use of food or other crops in this experiment? 26 A. Not that I've ever seen, no. 27 Q. New, was there one customer that actually used 28 ECBs as an extender? 1 A. Well, it's hard to say from this whether it's 2 testing or actual seme use, but generally they would have been 3 very, very small usage. 4 Q. And, in fact, FCTs are better suited for this? 5 A. Yes, because they are stickier. They stick 6 around longer. They have less volatility. So they would have 7 been much more satisfactory. 8 Q. Now, I assume you can't just go out and make a 9 pesticide and sell it, can you? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Is it regulated? 12 A. It's highly regulated. 13 Q. By who? 14 A. In the 1960s and earlier it was by US Department 15 of Agriculture. After the creation of the EPA in 1970, that 16 function moved to the Environmental Protection Agency. 17 Q. How about all the way back in 1947? Did you 18 have to register a pesticide? 19 A. Yes, you certainly did. 20 Q. Did you see any documents or anything, in 21 anything into you reviewed, that showed ECBs were ever 22 registered as a pesticide with the USEA? 2 3 A. No, I've never seen that. 24 Q. Let's move on to food additives. 25 Were ECBs ever intended as a food additive? 26 A. No, they were not. 27 Q. All right. Were they ever approved by the FDA 28 as a food additive? 63 65 1 A. Yes. Yes. When the ECB environmental issues 2 arose, Monsanto did an internal investigation among their 3 customers and did find one customer that had purchased some, I 4 believe, Aroclor 1254 for pesticide extender use. 5 Q. All right. 6 MR. UPSHAW: And, Mr. Aquino, could you give me -- 7 could you zoom in on that. 8 THE COURT: That's Exhibit 692? 9 MR. UPSHAW: 692. 10 Q. Okay. So this identified that customer, I 11 believe, or am I ahead? 12 A. I don't believe that this is -- I think this is 13 a different -14 Q. All right. Okay. That's the one I'm looking 15 for. 16 THE COURT: Not -- 17 MR. UPSHAW: No. Exhibit 59, your Honor. 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. This is -- I'm sorry. 19 Q. BY MR. UPSHAW: So what are we seeing? 20 A. This is a document that shews the results of 21 Monsanto's internal search for customers. And as it says, the 22 records show that there was only one customer buying ECBs for 2 3 insecticide extender use or a carrier. 24 Carrier is basically the same thing as extender. 25 Q. So if ECBs were ever used as a pesticide 26 extender, it was for a limited quantity? 27 A. Yes, it definitely would have been. 28 Q. For testing? 1 A. No, certainly not. 2 Q. Were ECBs ever approved by the FDA to be used 3 commercially in adhesives that were applied to food packaging? 4 A. No. 5 Q. And Dr. Feitman has showed this jury the final 6 Federal Register where -- the final Federal Fegister entry 7 where it was noted that ECBs did not make the list of approved 8 chemicals for use with food packaging. 9 You're familiar with that? 10 A. Yes. I've seen that document. 11 Q. All right. Did Monsanto identify or actually 12 talk to its customers about that final ruling? 13 A. Yes. In response to some inquiries, Monsanto 14 did communicate that information. 15 Q. Okay. If you could blow this up. 16 Is this one of those letters? 17 A. Yes, it is. 18 MR. UPSHAW: Your Honor, I think we need a new exhibit 19 number for this letter. 20 1962 Pappas letter. 21 THE COURT: It will be marked as 884. 22 (Exhibit 884, Pappas letter, marked for I.D.) 2 3 Q. BY MR. UPSHAW: Okay. What is Dr. Kelly telling 24 Mr. Pappas? 25 A. Well, apparently -- well, not apparently. They 26 have obviously been having some ongoing communications and 27 correspondence. Apparently Mr. Pappas had inquired about 28 Amcclor 1242 and Dr. Kelly was telling him that, in fact. Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067726 6 6 68 1 based on the Federal Register that ECBs ware not on the 2 approved list of adhesives and that the bottom line Monsanto 3 had no intention of ever applying for such permission or for 4 such licensing. 5 Q. Okay. Did you see any indication prior to this 6 date -- I mean when this was an issue back in ' 61 -- that 7 Monsanto had the intention of applying for approval from the 8 FDA for ECBs as an adhesive? 9 A. No. As far is I knew, that was never 10 contemplated. 11 Q. Let's look at this letter from 1968, a little 12 further down. 13 Thank you very much, sir. 14 THE COURT: Would that be Exhibit 820? 15 MR. UPSFAW: It would, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: All right. 17 Q. BY MR. UPSFAW: And what are we seeing here. 18 Dr. Kaley? 19 A. Well, again, this is a letter responding to a 20 request for information about toxicology data on Aroclor 21 products. One is a ECB and one is a FCT. 22 We communicate that information, but then we stress 2 3 that it's not approved for a food additive or food packaging 24 applications and suggest that Monsanto makes other 25 plasticizers that are approved, and we'll send them the 26 catalog so they can consider those. 27 Q. So we're trying to lead than in the right 28 direction? 1 had nothing to do with uses in any kind of a food additive or 2 chewing gum. 3 If it was ever even contemplated, that would have come 4 out of the plasticizer division. 5 So these products are industrial fluids. Would never 6 have been put in chewing gum. 7 Q. So this is not out of the plasticizer division? 8 A. No. 9 Q. This is out of the functional fluids? 10 A. Elmctional fluids. 11 Q. There was a long list attached to this of pages 12 and pages and pages of companies? 13 A. That's correct, yes. 14 Q. And those pages and pages of companies included 15 American Chicle and Wrigley. 16 You've seen that? 17 A. I have, yes. 18 Q. Were they -- on this big list those customers of 19 customers, were those functional fluid customers? 20 A. Yes, that's why it was sent to that group of 21 people. Yes. 22 Q. And functional fluid customers go to what 2 3 products? 24 A. To the hydraulic fluids and the heat transfer 25 fluids. 26 Q. Have you looked for sales records for Wrigley, 27 and what did you find? 28 A. Well, we did find some sales records to the 67 69 1 A. Sure. 2 Q. Okay. So this has keen mentioned and I feel 3 compelled to talk to you about it, chewing gum. 4 A. Okay. 5 Q. All right. Now, Dr. Markowitz shoved the jury 6 Exhibit 414 and said -- it was a letter from Monsanto to 7 customers about certain ECB products. He claimed that shoved 8 Monsanto sold 1254 and 1260. 9 You got it? 10 1254 and 1260 to ccnpanies like Wrigley and American 11 Chicle for use in chewing gum. 12 Can you explain this letter to the jury? 13 A. Yes. This is one of the letters -- 14 THE COURT: Exhibit 414? 15 MR. UPSHAW: Yes, your Honor, 414. 16 Q. Go ahead. Sorry for the interruption. 17 A. This is one of a number of letters that Monsanto 18 sent to customers alerting them to the environmental concerns 19 that were coming to the fore with regard to ECBs. It 20 explained which ECBs were being found and then pointed out 21 various product lines to these customers. 22 And the products that are dealt with in this particular 2 3 memo are hydraulic fluids. That's the Eydraul fluids and 24 Therminol fluids, which are heat transfer fluids. 25 The Turbinal that's mentioned in there is another -- it 26 was basically a lubricant for air compressors. 27 So, again, it was a general letter. It went to a large 28 list of customers. But these particular products would have 1 Wrigley company. They were basically for non-ECB products. 2 Q. You sold them Therminol 66? 3 A. That's correct. 4 The Therminol trade name was Monsanto's heat transfer 5 fluids, but the only ones that contained ECBs had a capital F, 6 capital R designation, Therminol FR. 7 Monsanto at the time and still Solutia makes lots of 8 other heat transfer fluids. Therminol 66 does not contain 9 ECBs. 10 THE COURT: That's Exhibit 840? 11 MR. UPSHAW: Yes, your Honor. 12 And 841 I think is the next page. 13 We have two exhibits on one slide. 14 Q. What are we showing here. Dr. Kaley? 15 A. Well, this is a sales record from the Monsanto 16 records that again shows that we were selling Therminol 66. 17 Q. Okay. New, did you also find out if Monsanto 18 sold products to American Chicle? 19 A. Yes, we tried to find sales records for that 20 company, also. 21 Q. And you sold Pydraul AC? 22 A. That's correct. 2 3 Q. Okay. And what's Pydraul AC? 24 A. Well, Eydraul is the hydraulic fluid. AC is for 25 air compressor. So it was a specific Eydraul designed for use 26 with air compressors. 27 Again, it's a hydraulic fluid. 28 Q. So, Dr. Kaley, have you seen any evidence that Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067727 70 72 1 Monsanto sold FCBs to anyone for use in chewing gum? 2 A. No. I've never seen such documentation. 3 Q. New, by 1940 Monsanto was already warning 4 customers not to use FCB plasticizers in the food industry; 5 correct? 6 A. That's correct, yes. 7 Q. All right. Let's move forward if we can. 8 MR. UPSHAW: Your Honor, if this is a good spot, fine. 9 If not, we'll keep going. 10 THE COURT: Well, Robert is standing by the door. So 11 that must mean he wants a break. 12 Ladies and gentlanen, we will take a morning break. 13 Keep in mind the admonition. 14 See you back in 15 minutes. 15 (Fecess.) 16 THE COURT: In the case of Dauber versus Monsanto, all 17 counsel are present. All jurors and alternates are present in 18 court. 19 Mr. Upshaw. 20 MR. UPSHAW: Thank you, your Honor. May it please the 21 Court, ladies and gentlanen. 22 Q. Dr. Kaley. Okay. I kind of took us well ahead 2 3 here. I'm not going to go that far. 24 Let's go on to Therminol if we can. 25 A. Okay. 26 Q. Could you explain to the jury what Therminol is. 27 means and what it's used for. 28 A. Yes. Therminol is a trade name for Monsanto's 1 A. Exactly. 2 Q. So how did the heat transfer system work? 3 Co you have a pointer there? 4 A. I do. 5 Basically heat transfer systems are basically used 6 where you want the source of the heat to be separate from what 7 you're heating. 8 So there it is. 9 So you have a heat source, whether it's a steam heat 10 system or actually sometimes an open flame, and the fluid -- 11 the heat transfer fluid is actually the blue symbol in the 12 tubes. 13 So the heat source would heat the fluid. It wjould be 14 pumped to the reaction vessel or wherever you needed the heat. 15 The heat in those fluids wjould then be transferred to 16 the oil or the reaction medium, whatever was in this big vat. 17 As it transferred its heat, it would cool. 18 The cool material would recirculate back and be 19 reheated. 20 It's very similar to the radiator in a car, although 21 it's working the other direction. 22 The radiator in a car is transferring the heat from the 2 3 engine to the atmosphere to cool the engine. So basically 24 your anti-freeze is a heat transfer system. 25 Q. Now, why would you use that? Why would you need 26 that in this process? 27 A. Well, in the vat itself in many cases there are 28 flammable materials. So, for instance, if you're using an 71 7 3 1 heat transfer fluids. 2 They are used in a variety of industries, without 3 trying to sound silly, that transfer heat. And we'll talk 4 about that in a minute. 5 Seme of them contain PCBs up to about 1971. Those were 6 designated with the ER, as I mentioned earlier. 7 Then after the FR there was a number 1, or zero. 8 actually, through 3, I think, that told which Amcclor was in 9 there, and what -- basically as the numbers went up, you would 10 use them at higher temperatures. 11 Q. Okay. So is this a heat transfer system? 12 A. It's a symbolic heat transfer syston, yes. 13 Q. Now, heat transfer systems were mainly used in 14 what application? 15 A. Well, they were primarily used in other 16 industrial applications in chemical plants and other plants 17 where you needed to heat a process that was on going. 18 Q. Interestingly, did Monsanto use a similar heat 19 transfer system to make PCBs? 20 A. They actually did, yes. 21 Q. So they used their product to make their 22 product? 2 3 A. Yes. That's fairly common within that industry. 24 actually. 25 The interesting thing kind of is that the division 26 using the product had to pay the division that was selling the 27 product. 28 Q. So they had to buy their own product? 1 open flame as your heat source, you don't want it right under 2 the flammable material. 3 You know, it would be as dangerous on an 4 industrial-sized basis as oil in a frying pan that you forget 5 and it ignites. It's basically a safety consideration. 6 Q. We saw in that chart the percentage of Therminol 7 sales. 8 A. It was about 1.6 percent of all FCB sales were 9 for Therminol. 10 Q. Now, there was a time in the late '50s, early 11 '60s, when this system was used in some industrial food 12 applications ? 13 A. It was used by some food companies, primarily 14 for the reasons that I kind of talked about, where in the vat 15 where they were doing something they could be using -- frying 16 a material in oil, vegetable oil, which is flammable. So you 17 don't want a direct heat source applied to that oil. 18 Q. So did that need FDA approval? 19 A. No. It was not a food additive, either a direct 20 food additive or an indirect food additive. It was just part 21 of the process. 22 Q. So if you compare the industrial application of 2 3 a heat transfer system to the -- I call it the industrial food 24 application -- what was the percentage, if you recall? 25 A. I don't knew exactly, but it was very small. It 26 was not a large contribution. It was by far to other 27 companies using it in their plants. 28 Q. All right. Are you aware when a heat transfer Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067728 74 76 1 system was used in -- I'll just call it food application -- 2 was contaminated food -- did they ever leak? 3 A. Yes. Unfortunately all systems leak. No system 4 is foolproof. So there was the potential for leaks. 5 Certainly Monsanto warned against then. 6 Q. All right. And did Monsanto in fact design some 7 systems itself? 8 A. They did. They actually had heat transfer 9 systems that they sold the whole system including the hardware 10 as well as the fluid. They did, yes. 11 Q. And did they tell customers how to maintain 12 those and make sure they were in top operating order, as well? 13 A. Yes. They did it that for whether it was their 14 system that was being purchased or they were using another 15 system. They were very explicit and very clear about how to 16 treat these systems down to what kind of welding to use so 17 that leaks were as minimal as possible. 18 Q. Are you aware of any contaminated food that was 19 ever sold or consumed? 20 A. Everything I've seen says that none ever was. 21 Q. Did Monsanto sell other products as heat 22 transfer fluids? 2 3 A. Yes, they did. 24 As I mentioned, there were Therminols that were not FR 25 that were probably the bigger part of the heat transfer market 26 for Monsanto. 27 Q. Right. And you talked about Therminol 66? 28 A. Exactly. That would have been an example. 1 Doctor, what are we looking at here? 2 A. Well, this is an internal document talking about 3 contamination of foods by heat transfer -- potential 4 contamination by heat transfer fluids. 5 Q. Okay. So this is 1969? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And Monsanto has checked with all of its 8 customers and this is kind of a summary of what they found 9 with regard to Therminol use? 10 A. Precisely. It is a summary of -- they are 11 interested in what is our experience with this kind of 12 situation. So they did an internal investigation with their 13 customers. 14 Q. Now, how many instances did they find that there 15 was a leak in all the uses that they looked at? 16 A. Well, there were actually four mentioned in this 17 memo where there were actually leaks that had been discovered. 18 Q. And two of those, what happened? Did the oil 19 come in contact with any food? 20 A. In two of them there actually was contact with 21 the food product, but in both cases the food was discarded. 22 Q. Okay. And in the two others it was not? 2 3 A. That's correct. They were away from the food 24 contact location. 25 Q. All right. So the last paragraph is 26 interesting. I'm not sure if the jury can see it. 27 It says, "It is also interesting to note that not one 28 failure has been reported on the approximately 192,000 75 77 1 Q. And if you see Therminol, does that mean it's 2 got to be PCBs? 3 A. No. I think that gees back to what we were just 4 saying. It has to have an FR to be FCB fluid. 5 Q. So you said it was foreseeable that there could 6 be a leak into an oil or a cooking oil, right? 7 A. It's conceivable, yes. 8 Q. Can you smell Therminol? 9 A. Well, generally, if you look at the product 10 bulletins or other places, they say that FCBs are odorless. 11 but we have to remember that in these heat transfer systems 12 they're being used at elevated temperatures. 13 As you heat the PCBs, the vapor pressure, they're more 14 volatile and you do get some odor at that point. 15 So there's kind of a conflict in what you may read, but 16 at high temperatures they do have an odor. 17 Q. What kind of odor dees it have? 18 A. It's kind of a medicinal kind of odor. It's 19 really hard to describe. Nothing that you would recognize as 20 an cdor, but kind of medicinal. 21 Q. Now, have you seen documents that indicate that 22 cdor tipped off heat transfer customers for food applications 2 3 when there was some leak due to a failure of maintenance or 24 something? 25 A. Yes. There was some indication that the 26 customers could smell the FCBs. 27 Q. All right. And we're looking at document 506, 28 Exhibit 506 -- Mr. Aquino, could you zoom in on this. 1 electrically heated stainless steel fry pans containing 2 Therminol FR 3." 3 Those were the West Bend frying pan? 4 A. Yes, that's correct. 5 Q. And not one leak reported? 6 A. That's correct also, yes. 7 Q. Prior to late 1966 -- prior to this time in '69 8 and back, any indication to believe that the properties and 9 uses of FCBs, that they are widespread in the environment at 10 this point? 11 A. Well, by ' 69 -- 12 Q. '69. Yes. Let's go back to the '60s. 13 A. By the early '60s -- by the mid-'60s there was 14 no such indication. 15 Q. Okay. So let's go back to talking about, while 16 we're here, the heat transfer and food indications. 17 Any indication that -- well, the jury saw something 18 about Frito-Lay. 19 Any indication that one potato chip that was ever sold 20 by Frito-Lay was contaminated with Therminol? 21 A. Not that ever reached the consumer. Certainly 22 not that I'm aware of. 2 3 Q. Okay. So let's talk about this a little bit. 24 This is Exhibit 77. This is a letter from 1955, and 25 the jury has seen this. 26 It talks about lunch reams. And it was a memo in the 27 Krummrich plant, correct? 28 A. Yes. Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067729 78 80 1 Q. New, Department 246 was what? 2 A. That was the department -- each chanical product 3 was made in a different department at the plant. This was the 4 department that was making FCBs. 5 Q. Before this memo came out, any indication that 6 workers are getting sick from eating where they're working? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Should you eat where you work? 9 A. Generally not if you're around chemicals or in a 10 hospital or sanqplace where there's any danger of any kind of 11 contamination whether it be bacterial or chemical or 12 whatever. 13 Q. Is this gcod industrial hygiene? 14 A. Yes. As the last point says, you knew, although 15 this is directed to the FCB department, our medical director 16 is saying, hey, nobody should be eating in their department. 17 Q. Okay. All right. Let's go back to our timeline 18 here and step back a second. 19 We have established the '30s, we've looked at the '40s 20 and the '50s, that Monsanto continued testing for POBs and 21 toxicity, correct? 22 A. Yes. They did continue those tests. 2 3 Q. They warned customers in product labels and in 24 bulletins? 25 A. That's correct. 26 Q. About the use of FCBs? 27 A. That's correct, yes. 28 Q. Any indication here up to '66 of a signal or 1 A. To some extent, yes. 2 I mean, people were becoming more aware of 3 environmental concerns. 4 But, you know, Purdue was engineers and farmers. And 5 the farmers were concerned. It was a big agricultural school. 6 So certainly it was getting people to start to think about 7 these issues that really had kind of passed under the radar 8 screen before then. 9 Q. So the environmental awareness is starting to 10 happen, right? 11 A. That's correct, yes. 12 Q. How about -- when did you notice it, the 13 environmental awareness happening? 14 A. To some extent at Purdue, but generally by the 15 time of graduate school, the graduate students tend to be a 16 little more activist. 17 Illinois was a little more liberal than Purdue. So the 18 focus at that point was really the Vietnamese war, frankly. 19 but the environmental movement was getting traction. 20 Q. All right. So let's -- keeping this time frame. 21 did the EPA exist back then, 1966? 22 A. No, it did not. 2 3 Q. How about OSHA? 24 A. No. 25 Q. How about the Superfund litigation and all that 26 going on? 27 A. No. There was no Superfund law at that point. 28 Q. Toxic Substances Control Act, was that around 79 81 1 anything that would indicate to Monsanto during this time 2 frame that its workers were getting sick frou FCBs? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Excess lymphoma seen or any excess cancer? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Hew about GE or Westinghouse up to this time. 7 any indications whatsoever that its workers are getting sick? 8 A. Not that I'm aware of, no. 9 Q. All right. So let's take a step back in time 10 for a second. and let's go specifically to 1966. 11 What was Bob Kaley doing in 1966? 12 A. Well, it would have been after my sophomore year 13 at Purdue. That summer I was actually working in an 14 analytical chanistry lab for Miles Laboratories in Indiana. 15 They made Alka-Seltzer. So I was pursuing my career, or my 16 future career 17 Q. So I was six years old. 18 Was Purdue like Wocdstock? 19 A. No. Au contraire, Purdue was pretty 20 conservative at the time. 21 Q. It sounds like the Beatles and the civil rights 22 movement and changes were happening in the United States. 2 3 A. That's right. It was a time of great change in 24 this country. yes. 25 Q. Are you familiar with the book Silent Spring? 26 A. I am. 27 Q. Did that have a big effect on what was happening 28 at Purdue? 1 then? 2 A. No. That is the federal legislature and the 3 federal law that controls chemicals, ECBs included, so that 4 was not passed yet. 5 Q. The jury has heard about the NTP, National 6 Toxicity -- go ahead. 7 A. Toxicology Pregram. 8 Q. Was that around the summer of '66? 9 A. No, it was not. 10 Q. Now, Monsanto was in the FCB business, right? 11 A. Yes, sure. Yes. 12 Q. Now they had engaged in FCB business and FCB 13 testing at that point for about, what, 30 years? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. In your vieiv was Monsanto up to 1966 hiding 16 anything from customers, the government or anybedy else? 17 A. Oh, certainly not. They were communicating what 18 their studies were showing. 19 Q. Were their warnings consistent frcm that time as 20 to what they were finding in their studies? 21 A. Yes, absolutely. 22 Q. Based on documents you've read, what was 2 3 Monsanto's understanding in the summer of '66 as to whether 24 workers, either Monsanto's or their customers, could safely 25 work with and around FCBs? 26 A. Yes. Their understanding was they could and 27 their experience was that that was what was happening, that 28 they weren't seeing disease in their workers. Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067730 82 84 1 Q. All right. Somebody like Nil, had they, by the 2 summer of 1966, told Monsanto they were noticing that people 3 who were exposed to ECBs were having problems or getting 4 illnesses at all? 5 A. No, I'm not aware of any things like that. 6 Q. How about universities? Were any universities 7 looking to Monsanto and saying, hey, we're noticing there is 8 an issue with your chemical ECBs? 9 A. Well, some of than were -- 10 Q. Before 1966? 11 A. Before 1966, no. 12 Q. How about government agencies as of '66. Let's 13 stick with that. 14 A. Not that I'm aware of. 15 Q. Had any chemical corrpany done any long-term 16 cancer studies on ECBs by 1966? 17 A. No, they had not. 18 Q. Were there producers in 1966 of ECBs outside the 19 United States? 20 A. Yes. There were a number of worldwide producers 21 at that time frame and before and after. 22 Q. Okay. Had any of them done any long-term cancer 2 3 studies by 1966? 24 A. Not that I'm aware of, no. 25 Q. Any reports of workers outside the U.S. getting 26 excess cancers from ECB exposure? 27 A. Not that I've ever seen, no. 28 Q. Had Nil done any such test? 1 We talked about a difference in awareness about 2 environmental issues around that time? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Was that same issue, that same awareness. 5 beginning in Monsanto around 1966? 6 A. Sure. 7 Q. And you started in 1973. 8 A. Right. 9 Q. Was that awareness continuing when you got 10 there? 11 A. Oh, a huge focus of why I got there, that is 12 part of what we were involved in was testing for ECBs, their 13 environmental presence, their environmental effects and how to 14 minimize such effects, if there were any. 15 Q. Now, in the summer of '66 did Monsanto have any 16 information coming back to it from any source that ECBs 17 getting into the environment were causing any apparent 18 problem? 19 A. No. That was one of the other things that would 20 trigger long-term testing, would be an obvious environmental 21 problem, and there was no such indication with ECBs. 22 Q. Okay. So for the first time in November of 2 3 1966, two scientists, Jensen and Widmark, do some studies and 24 they present their findings. 25 A. That's correct, yes. 26 Q. What were they studying, who are they, and what 27 did they find? 28 A. Well, Jensen and Widmark were two researchers in 8 3 85 1 Now, NCI was around at that time, right? 2 A. Yes, they were. 3 Q. They've been around since, what, 1937? 4 A. Late 30's, '37 or something, yes. 5 Q. So in all that time had they done any testing on 6 ECBs, long-term animal testing? 7 A. No, they had not. 8 Q. So why is it that Monsanto didn't test ECBs for 9 long-term cancer before 19 -- what is it, 1968? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Why is that? 12 A. There were basically three or four reasons why a 13 material would be subject to a long-term cancer test. 14 One was -- and we've talked about several times -- is 15 cancer in the workplace. If you're seeing cancer in your 16 workers, you need to figure out why and what chemical might be 17 causing it. So that might trigger some testing. 18 Food additives after the mid-1950s had to be tested for 19 long-term carcinogenicity. 20 Widespread application like pesticides would be an 21 indication that such testing would be appropriate. 22 Really none of those applied to Monsanto or to ECBs. 2 3 They applied to Monsanto, but not to ECBs. 24 Monsanto did have products that they did do long-term 25 testing on because of those reasons. 26 Q. Okay. 0 let's talk about the environment and 27 environmental concerns in the summer of '66, and let's stay 28 there for a second. 1 Sweden. They had been doing for a number of years testing of 2 environmental samples for the presence of DDT and other 3 pesticides. 4 And during those analyses, they were seeing some 5 signals that they couldn't identify as pesticides. 6 I'm going to get a little technical if that's okay. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. They were using an instrument called a gas 9 chromatograph. And a gas chromatograph is basically an 10 instrument that separates chemicals. 11 The output kind of looks like a mountain range. So 12 when a chordcal comes out of the end of it, you'll see a 13 signal, a peak on the recorder, and something like DDT, a 14 single compound, you would get a single peak. 15 Always if you ran the conditions the same, you would 16 always see it at the same time. So every time you saw that 17 peak, you could say, oh, that's DDT, or probably DDT, and 18 depending how big it was, you could tell how much. 19 They were doing these analyses, and we'll just focus on 20 DDT. But they were seeing peaks that they didn't know what 21 they were. They didn't match up with any other pesticides. 22 but they had no way of knowing what those peaks were. 2 3 Q. So what did they do? 24 A. So at some point there was an instrument company 25 in Sweden that was manufacturing a new -- really a combination 26 of two instruments, a gas chromatograph and then I mentioned 27 briefly a mass spectrometer, and they had linked those 28 together. Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067731 86 88 1 A mass spectrometer allows you to identify what 2 chemical is there. Once that linkage was made, then they were 3 able to at least tentatively identify those peaks as ECBs. 4 So that's what they presented at a meeting in 1966 and 5 then later went on there was a short article published on 6 that -- about that finding in a British magazine called New 7 Scientist in December of 1966. 8 Q. Now, before the researchers Jensen and Widmark 9 came out with their finding, had anybody made this finding 10 previously? 11 A. Well, they had seen the peaks, but they didn't 12 know what they were. 13 Q. They didn't know what they were. 14 Had anybody published on them or came out publicly and 15 said we think we're finding ECBs in the environment? 16 A. No. This was the first indication. 17 Q. Now, at what level did they detect these ECBs? 18 A. Well, these were back at our ppm level we talked 19 about earlier. 20 This was really just at the dawn of time when chanists 21 could start talking about parts per million. So that's 22 basically the levels they were finding. 2 3 Q. We actually talked about parts per billion. 24 right? That was the one second -- 25 A. Oh, was that parts per billion? Okay. 26 Q. Right. So parts per million would not be as 27 small but almost as small, right? 28 A. Right. They are very small. That was my M&M 1 Europe made ECBs, they were clearly interested. 2 Other researchers doing other pesticide analyses had 3 seen these peaks and they were, of course, saying, oh, that's 4 magbe what our peaks are. So they started doing that kind of 5 research. 6 So it really, both within and outside of Monsanto, 7 stimulated questions, interest and a path forward on trying to 8 really understand what was going on. 9 Q. So initially, after this report, was there some 10 confusion as to whether these were ECBs, specifically Monsanto 11 ECBs? 12 A. Well, certainly there was confusion whether they 13 were Monsanto ECBs. 14 There was some confusion whether they were ECBs at all 15 or whether they might be degradation products of some 16 pesticide since they were doing pesticide analyses. 17 So there was some question. Seme of the chemists were 18 seeing different things than Jensen and Widmark. There were a 19 lot of questions. 20 Q. So we'll get to what some of the other chemists 21 did and hew they got their samples and things of that nature 22 as we move forward in our timeline. 2 3 But let me ask you here. 24 Right around this time period was there confusion as to 25 how it was getting even into the environment? 26 A. Oh, certainly, yes. 27 Q. How so? 28 A. Well, because we're kind of back where we 87 89 1 analogy, was my part per million. 2 Q. Part per million. 3 So, now, did Jensen and Widmark rqcort anybody was 4 being hurt by what they found? 5 A. No. They were very clear they didn't know what 6 either the environmental or human effects were. There was no 7 indication that there were any. 8 Q. So they're just saying we see this stuff? 9 A. That's correct, yes. 10 Q. And we think it's ECBs? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Did they report anybody -- any humans were being 13 affected by it? 14 A. Not affected, no. 15 Q. Any animals being affected by it? 16 A. No, they did not record that. 17 Q. Actually Jensen and Widmark found it in several 18 places, correct? 19 A. They did. 20 Q. Did they report -- did they rqoort that they 21 found it -- what the cause of it -- why they were finding it? 22 A. No. They speculated later on, but at the time 2 3 they had no idea where it was coming from. 24 Q. Okay. So what happened here? Did this spur 25 interest? Were people excited about it? Was there seme 26 movement at Monsanto at the time? 27 A. Well, Monsanto, deviously, because it was one of 28 their products, although it was in Europe and other people in 1 started. 2 ECBs were an industrial product, largely used in the 3 electrical industry. 4 When they weren't, they were thought to be, you kncw. 5 as I keqp saying the phrase, locked in, but they were locked 6 into the product. They were in the plastic or wherever they 7 were. 8 It just seamed very curious to Monsanto and others as 9 to hew could it be that these things apparently were fairly 10 widespread in the environment. 11 Q. Well, at this point, in fact even today, are you 12 able to tell, when you lock at ECBs in the environment, where 13 they come from? 14 A. No. The analytical chemist can tell you what's 15 there and how much, but they can't generally tell you where it 16 came from. 17 There are methods to do some of that, but not by just 18 doing the analysis. It takes a lot of computer time to do 19 those kind of analyses. That wasn't available at this period. 20 Q. Okay. So there's no Monsanto ECB fingerprint 21 versus some other person making -- 22 A. No. There's no little red "M" on the ECB 2 3 molecules. 24 Q. Okay. So what theory did Jensen and Widmark 25 have that they thought was causing ECBs to even be in the 26 places they were testing? 27 A. Well, they really thought two things. 28 They were found basically in a harbor and water. So Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067732 90 92 1 they thought it possibly could be caning frau marine paints 2 that wore on the ships or possibly from some sort of 3 industrial discharge frau somebody that was using ECBs 4 upstream souewhere. 5 Q. I think we touched briefly on what Monsanto's 6 reaction was, which was they didn't understand this happening? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. So haAj does Monsanto react, then, to this? 9 A. Well, they do several things. 10 First they -- GE was by far their largest custouer. 11 They alerted or they noticed or told GE that this information 12 had been published and wanted to make thou aware of it so they 13 could start thinking about this issue too. 14 They were very sophisticated and had a lot of 15 scientists and were using a lot of PGBs. 16 Q. So GE is probably Monsanto's biggest custouer 17 for ECBs? 18 A. No question, absolutely, yes. 19 Q. Almost a month later -- a month later dees 20 Monsanto have all the information here? 21 Let's make sure we're back in 1966, right? 22 They couldn't email, then, Jensen and Widmark, and ask 2 3 them for their paperwork and their results, right? 24 A. No. Monsanto actually sent people to visit with 25 Jensen and Widmark at the university in Sweden. 26 Q. Right. And that was early '67. 27 But back in December of '66, they're working off pretty 28 limited information. 1 ECB -- geez, had been analyzing pesticides much like Jensen 2 and Widmark had, had seen the same peaks and was interested in 3 their findings. 4 So this triggered additional research on his part to 5 see what he was finding matched what Jensen was finding. 6 His first indications were that he didn't really agree 7 with what they were reporting. 8 Q. Okay. So he's creating a little controversy 9 here? 10 A. Well, I wouldn't call it controversy, but 11 certainly raising questions about, you know, whether the 12 findings were true or not. 13 Q. All right. And so this was his letter? 14 There you go. 15 THE COURT: Which exhibit is this? 16 MR. UPSHAW: This is Exhibit 614. 17 THE WITNESS: 602. 18 MR. UPSHAW: 602. I've got the wrong one. I've the 19 wrong thing here. I apologize. 20 THE COURT: 602. 21 Q. BY MR. UPSHAW: So Monsanto here -- go back to 22 the top if you would. 2 3 This letter is to Dr. Kelly? 24 A. Yes, it is. 25 Q. Okay. And what are they discussing here just so 26 we all knew and we don't have to read it all. 27 A. Well, basically Dr. Hardy was a Monsanto 28 researcher in Great Britain in our British operation. And 91 93 1 A. Right. They basically have a written rqoort 2 through the mail of what Jensen and Widmark had said. 3 There was even sane confusion in that, so -- 4 Q. And immediately for that time frame they get 5 this information to their biggest custouer? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. Now, you said GE was larger. 8 They had big labs and they had researchers and all 9 this? 10 A. Oh, absolutely, yes. 11 Q. So we go on to our next bullet, our next flag. 12 and here that Monsanto visited the Swedish scientists. 13 They actually flew over to Sweden and wanted to sit and 14 chat about what he found? 15 A. Well, the first visit was by -- Monsanto had an 16 operation in Great Britain. The first visit was by people 17 from -- they were already based in Europe. They later did 18 send another delegation over, but the first visit were people 19 who had been based in Europe. 20 Q. Then in Fdsruary of '67 a gentlouan named 21 Richardson frau the Shell Oil Company? 22 A. Yes. It was actually a division of Shell that 2 3 manufactured pesticide. Shell had a large pesticide 24 manufacturing business also. 25 Q. What's his role here? Why are we pointing out 26 that Richardson questioned Jensen's findings? 27 A. Well, because ECB -- because Shell had pesticide 28 business and interest. Dr. Richardson had been analyzing 1 he's basically summarizing communications that had gone on 2 before with Jensen and Widmark with other researchers. 3 Now, there were other researchers starting to publish 4 articles about ECBs in the environment along with pesticides. 5 Then talking about his conversations with -- he says 6 Mr. Richardson. I believe it's Dr. Richardson. 7 Q. Okay. But he thinks Dr. Richardson has jumped 8 the gun? 9 A. Well, Richardson -- according to this memo. 10 Richardson thinks Jensen and Widmark may have jumped the gun. 11 Q. Oh, all right. We're going to find out a little 12 more about hew that story gees. 13 So Monsanto then sends the article to NCR? 14 A. Right. 15 Q. And where is NDR located? 16 A. They are in Wisconsin, I believe. 17 Q. So they're telling one of their other big 18 customers to look out for this information caning? 19 A. Yes. 20 NDR was probably the biggest -- other than the 21 capacitor manufacturers, the biggest purchaser of Amcclor 22 1242. 2 3 Q. Okay. Did Monsanto send additional samples to 24 Jensen and Dr. Richardson? 25 A. Yes. Both Dr. Richardson and Jensen and Widmark 26 had requested pure samples from Monsanto to be sure -- to 27 confirm that what they were finding was, in fact, ECBs. 28 So Monsanto sent those samples. Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067733 94 96 1 Q. All right. And this is just Exhibit 606, now. 2 showing than sending small samples, correct? 3 A. Right. 4 Q. Sending small samples? 5 A. Mr. Tatton was a chanist in the British 6 regulatory --- I forget which agency, but he worked for the 7 British government. He was a government chanist. 8 Q. Okay. So new that Dr. Richardson has these 9 samples, he confirms -- is it Dr. Jensen? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q- He confirms Dr. Jensen's finding by now? 12 A. Yes, right. By Novanber he had become convinced 13 that there really was FCBs that Jensen had reported. That was 14 pretty much that for than. 15 Q. So Monsanto starts sending out samples, correct? 16 A. Yes. Monsanto received numerous requests from 17 all sorts of people for samples, and they complied with those 18 requests immediately. 19 Q. Okay. Including the U.S. Government? 20 A. Yes, a number of agencies of the government. 21 Q. Hew about to universities? 22 Well this is Monsanto sending samples. 2 3 This is an interesting letter. This is Exhibit 614. 24 If you would blew up the page. 25 It starts, ,TWe have been cooperating with Aroclor 26 samples to the following investigators." 27 This is just one letter of -- 28 A. Right. This is at this point a summary of every 1 tell? 2 A. Absolutely, yes. 3 Q. So what's happening on July 29, 1968, with a 4 company called IBT? 5 A. Yes. IBT stands for Industrial Bio-Test. At 6 the time they were one of the premier toxicology testing labs 7 in the country. 8 By this time there were questions about whether there 9 were FCBs in fish. 10 The FDA was obviously looking at the potential for FCBs 11 in food samples. So Monsanto, you know, responded with 12 commissioning long-term testing studies now that it was 13 confirmed that FCBs were in the environment. 14 Q. So at this point was there any reports that FCBs 15 were causing cancer in animals? 16 A. No, there were none. 17 Q. Any rqoorts that FCBs are causing cancer in 18 humans? 19 A. No, there were none. 20 Q. Had Monsanto been ordered by any of those 21 government agencies or the government in general to start this 22 testing? 2 3 A. No, they undertook that on their own. 24 voluntarily. 25 Q. You mentioned other researchers and we see the 26 U.S. Government, some U.S. universities. 27 Were there other places around the world, independent 28 researchers, who were starting chronic testing about the same 95 97 1 place they had sent them at this point in time. 2 Q. Okay. So including the FDA, at Cornell? 3 A. Right. U.S. Government agencies, lots of U.S. 4 research facilities, yes. 5 Q. Okay. So also universities? 6 A. Yes. Wisconsin was one. They were 7 investigating FCBs in the Great Lakes. 8 Q. Okay. New York State and Cornell I just 9 mentioned? 10 A. Right, both in New York. Again, Great Lake 11 states. 12 Q. Okay. Sending them to specifically the FDA and 13 the USDA? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. On request? 16 A. Yes, absolutely. 17 Q. So the U.S. government is also researching this? 18 A. Yes, they are. 19 Q. Back in 1968? 20 A. Correct. Yes. 21 Q. That's going to come into play later on. So 22 we're going to remarber that in June of '68 the government had 2 3 samples, okay? 24 A. Okay. 25 Q. All right. In July of '68, U.S. Bureau of 26 Comrercial Fisheries, another U.S. agency? 27 A. Yes. 28 Q. Doing separate testing, as far as you could 1 time? 2 A. No. There were no other chronic tests started. 3 Q. What's the process for long-term chronic animal 4 study, briefly, because we're going to hear from a 5 toxicologist here actually. 6 A. Right. So a long-term study in the terms that's 7 being used around in this case, I think, is basically a 8 two-year feeding study. 9 Two years is about the lifetime of a rat, a laboratory 10 rat. So a long-term study would a lifetime study. 11 But before that two years, you have to do what's called 12 a range-finding study to figure out how much of a chemical you 13 can feed to those rats so they might have an effect, but 14 they're not going to die. 15 If you're going to do a two-year study, you don't want 16 to kill them after two weeks. 17 So that study typically takes six months. There are 18 other things around that. 19 So and then at the other end of the study it takes 20 months to understand the data, get thorn compiled, get them 21 reported. 22 So a two-year study really takes magbe three to four 2 3 years. 24 Q. Okay. In August of '68, and, again, we started 25 this in late '66, so we're less than two years down the line 26 from when Jensen first rqports that there are FCBs in the 27 environment, right? 28 A. Right. Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067734 98 100 1 Q. Monsanto purchases advanced analytical 2 equipment. 3 What are you telling us there? 4 A. Jensen and Widmark for their pesticide analyses 5 had been using equipment where these peaks were -- it took a 6 special kind of detector. And, again, I'm not talking about 7 the mass spec, but there was another detector on the end of 8 the QI that was being used. 9 It also turned out that you couldn't have metal in the 10 analytical system. Everything had to be all glass. 11 So once Monsanto learned this and realized if they were 12 going to be a world-class laboratory, they needed this kind of 13 instrument, so they vent out and bought the instrument they 14 needed to do the best work they could. 15 Q. Okay. Samples to Fish and Wildlife, federal and 16 state departments. 17 So now the states are getting samples now? 18 A. Yes. Some of thorn are, yes. 19 Q. And they're doing their own research as well? 20 A. Correct. That's correct. 21 Q. University of Wisconsin lab. Why University of 22 Wisconsin? 2 3 A. Well, again, they're doing work. It's kind of 24 that more samples to work with at the research institutes that 25 vere studying FCBs in the Great Lakes. 26 Q. Out here to California, to Riverside? 27 A. Yes. 28 Q. Okay. Now, Monsanto and IBT expand the scope of 1 A. Well, he suspected some effects on animals. 2 There were two things going on. 3 The primary one of interest was that it had been known 4 for some time that birds of prey -- for example, the peregrine 5 falcon really became the symbol -- but birds of prey, they 6 were having trouble with their population because of the 7 eggshell thing. That had been attributed to pesticides. And 8 Risebrough speculated that PCBs could also be contributing to 9 that effect in those birds. 10 Q. So this was the first time, was it not. 11 Dr. Kaley, that someone had connected FCBs with harm to -- 12 A. With any specific potential harm. That's 13 correct. 14 Q. Did it turn out that Dr. Ris^srough was correct 15 in his theory? 16 A. No. 17 Later research shewed that, in fact, DDT did cause 18 eggshell thinning in these birds, but controlled studies 19 shewed that PCBs didn't have that effect. 20 Q. So at this time, around when Dr. Risebrough's 21 report was summarized in the article from the San Francisco 22 Chronicle, was Monsanto still puzzled as to how FCBs could be 2 3 in the environment and maybe even affecting wildlife in a 24 widespread way? 25 A. Yes, they still were. 26 Again, going back to the things we've touched on a 27 little bit, the use pattern just didn't make any sense, that 28 there was any way they could be this widespread in the 99 101 1 animal studies here. Why is that? 2 A. Well, I think they were doing the two-year 3 studies, but they wanted to test additional animals. 4 You get different information from different animals. 5 I guess that's not too surprising. But because chardcals 6 don't always react the same in people as rats or dogs as rats 7 or dogs as people, so they wanted just to get a broader view 8 of what are the potential toxicities. 9 Q. So about this time, not too long after this 10 time, a Dr. Ris^arough comes on the scene. 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. Right. 13 New, tell us a little bit about the Risebrough article 14 and hew it was reported in the San Francisco Chronicle. 15 A. If you recall from the previous slide, Monsanto 16 sent samples to the University of California, Riverside. One 17 of the researchers there was a Dr. Robert Ris^arough, and he 18 was doing investigations on the West Coast, the first in the 19 United States. 20 In December, I believe, of '68, he had published an 21 article in the San Francisco Chronicle which was the first 22 report of PCBs being found in the U.S. environment. Other 2 3 than that, before that it had all been in Europe. 24 So this caught the attention of the editorial staff of 25 the San Francisco Chronicle, and they published an article 26 summarizing Ris^srough's effects in February. 27 Q. New, part of their summary was that Ris^srough 28 had found some effects on animals, correct? 1 environment. 2 Q. Now, the jury saw this. This is Exhibit 16 3 earlier when Dr. Markowitz was testifying. 4 And he shoved this to say that Monsanto was questioning 5 what Dr. Ris^srough was saying and whether -- questioning 6 whether FCBs were really found in the environment. 7 This was the paragraph that was shown to the jury. 8 You've read this document before, right? 9 A. Yes, I have. 10 Q. I'll submit to you that Dr. Markowitz didn't 11 show the entire document. 12 There are other portions of this document that you 13 would like to show the jury, correct? 14 A. Yes. There are other things that I think are 15 important, yes. 16 Q. Let's show what was not shown. 17 If you will go to the left side there, Mr. Aquino. 18 What did you want to show here? 19 A. Well, I think this wording or this highlight 20 really puts words to what I've been trying to say, that there 21 were several puzzling aspects. 22 They were stable compounds. They weren' t soluble in 2 3 water. Their use pattern didn't make them easily released. 24 And the market was largely for what later became to be called 25 closed systems, but they were sealed in metal containers and 26 heat transfer systems. 27 So, again, you know, there was some question whether it 28 was PCBs, not really, but why were they there. It didn't make Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067735 102 104 1 any sense. 2 Q. New, go to the next side of that slide if you 3 will. Just continue and finish that out. 4 Did Monsanto saying they had programs in place? 5 A. Yes. Even before this time we were taking back 6 our fluids. You know, the environmental awareness movement 7 had, as we talked about, had been growing. So part of that 8 was Monsanto to take back used products so they weren't 9 irresponsibly disposed of. 10 Q. And Monsanto reiterates that it's not being 11 sprayed or dusted on crops? 12 A. That's correct, yes. 13 Q. So here's another portion of that same letter 14 that you wanted to show to the jury, correct? 15 A. Right. 16 Again, this summarizes some of what we've been talking 17 about. 18 Obviously we had a research program going. We had got 19 the analytical equipment. We're well on the way to becoming a 20 world-class lab. 21 We had started the long-term toxicity testing. We 22 continued to do short-term testing. And we were sending these 2 3 samples to anybody that asked. 24 You knew, we were trying to help other people help us 25 understand what was going on. 26 Q. Okay. So was Monsanto in any way questioning 27 that Dr. Risebrough had found ECBs? 28 A. Well, there was a little question. 1 needed. 2 Q. All right. New, the jury has seen a document 3 from Mr. Rfetcalf. Explain again who is Mr. Rfetcalf. 4 Dr. Rfetcalf. I'm sorry. 5 A. Dr. Metcalf was a researcher, a biologist 6 primarily at the University of Illinois. Monsanto had worked 7 with him a number of times over the years on other issues. 8 So Monsanto asked him to take a look at this ECB issue. 9 what's going on from his point of view. You knew, give us 10 some advice on how to approach the problem. 11 Q. And the jury has seen this as Exhibit 21. 12 Is this Dr. Rfetcalf's findings? 13 A. Yes. After he talked about the situation and 14 sunmarized seme of the situations, he suggested seven things 15 for Monsanto do to address this issue. 16 Q. Did Monsanto actually do any of those seven? 17 A. Well, they actually did all of those seven to 18 some extent. 19 Nuttber 6 was not undertaken in great detail, but they 20 did do -- I mean, it says they're partially included in 21 industrial bio tests. So Monsanto was touching on that, but 22 other than that, they did all of those. 2 3 Q. Okay. All right. So this is what we were 24 talking about. 25 Even though Dr. Tucker did the tests on incineration 26 and found 1242, Dr. Widmark dees what in May of 1969? 27 A. Well, this was a conversation that Monsanto 28 scientists were having with Dr. Widmark. Again, two years 103 105 1 Dr. Risebrough had not used the combination of GO mass 2 spec. 3 So I think there was a little bit of questions among 4 some of the chemists of whether, you know, maybe it really was 5 a pesticide degradation product or something, but the reality 6 is that there really wasn't that much question about it. 7 Q. Okay. Let's go on. 8 You've indicated in your Fdsruary of '69 -- the Tucker 9 memo on incineration of NCR paper. 10 Can you explain to us why we're seeing that? 11 A. Yes. One of the questions, again, kind of 12 addressing how could FCBs even be out there was possibly, you 13 know, people used a lot of carbon paper in the '60s and '50s, 14 and a lot of it was probably burned. Could that be a 15 mechanism to get FCBs in the environment. 16 So Dr. Tucker at Monsanto, who was my first boss 17 actually, had done a study burning paper under a controlled 18 situation and analyzing the gases that came off and found out 19 that, yes, ECBs were released during that process. 20 Q. And which number of ECB was that? 21 A. This was Arcelor 1242, because that was the one 22 used in the paper. It wasn't being found in the environment. 2 3 but it was still a potential source anyway. So that's why 24 that one was being tested. 25 Q. EPes Monsanto continue to send samples at this 26 time? 27 A. Yes. Again, whatever -- whoever asked, we 28 were -- you know, we were happy to send samples, whatever they 1 after the initial discovery, there are still questions about 2 this doesn't make sense. 3 One of the questions was, okay, 1242 is a big product. 4 We know it's in carbonless copy paper, but still it's not 5 being found in the environment, at least in the places where 6 they were looking. 7 So, you knew, that was one of the questions that 8 Widmark rqoorted. We don't see 1242. 9 Q. Right. 10 Just so I know, it says, "He reported that he had not 11 isolated or found much chlorinated biphenyl." 12 What's with one through four Cl atoms? 13 A. Well, that's chlorine atoms. That goes back to 14 our drawing. The ECB that I drew, the second from the bottau 15 there, has three chlorine atoms, and you could have with four 16 or one. 17 Arcelor 1242 was mostly made up of ECBs with three or 18 four chlorine atoms. 19 Arcelor 1254 was four or five. 20 Arcelor 1260 was five or six, generally up to seven. 21 So that's what he's talking about. He's talking about 22 the lower chlorinated materials. Even though we were selling 2 3 a lot of them, he wasn't finding them in the environment. 24 MR. UPSHAW: I'm sorry. We didn't mention the number 25 was 672, your Honor. 26 THE COURT: All right. 27 Q. BY MR. UPSHAW: Okay. So Monsanto actually 28 funds seme research at the Wisconsin Alumni Pesearch Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067736 106 108 1 Foundation. Tell us about that. 2 A. Yes. Monsanto realized that there was lots of 3 useful work going on out there and did do seme selective 4 funding at research institutes. 5 Q. New, when Monsanto decided to fund certain 6 research, did they try not to duplicate their efforts? 7 A. Right. Yeah, they didn't want to do something 8 internally that somebody else was doing externally, that's 9 correct. 10 Q. Hew about if one organization was doing a 11 certain kind of test and another organization or university 12 decided they wanted to do the same thing, would Monsanto 13 weight that and decide magbe not to do the same thing twice? 14 A. Right. In fact we knew that actually happened 15 in one case, that the university, the proposed research was 16 proposing something that was being done by the government 17 laboratories. 18 Q. So about a week later, October 25th, 1969, 19 Monsanto designates the FCB ad hoc committee. 20 Tell us, what was the FCB ad hoc committee? 21 A. Ad hoc means "to this," so it was really a 22 committee formed to address the FCB issue specifically. 2 3 Lots had been going on. Dr. Kelly was involved from 24 the medical department, as well as Dr. Wheeler. 25 I think you probably don't remember, but Dr. Richard on 26 some of the memos was in the research department. Dr. Keller 27 and Dr. Tucker were analytical chanists. 28 Monsanto decided at this point, hey, we're moving on. 1 But that's not what Monsanto did. 2 Q. So there was not just that one document that was 3 put out by the ad hoc committee, correct? 4 A. Oh, no. There were several drafts along the way 5 throughout that fall. 6 Q. Okay. October 15 actually they put out a 7 report, correct? 8 A. Right. That was one of the draft rqports, yes. 9 Q. Okay. Now, we have it as a slide, I believe. 10 This is 133. This is one of the reports. It's just a 11 first page, right? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. The rqport was obviously longer than that? 14 A. Yes. It was quite thick, actually. 15 Q. Now, let's go to -- do you have 133? Do you 16 have a copy? 17 I think Dr. Kaley has already talked about it 18 sufficiently, so let's move on. 19 This was a draft? 20 A. Yes. It's labeled as the second draft. 21 Q. And there were several iterations of this ad hoc 22 committee report in drafts? 2 3 A. Yes. As the committee continued to meet, they 24 continued to update, revise as they went along, but these 25 interim rqports were to keep everybody aware of what was going 26 on. 27 Q. Now, in the final recommendation, the final 28 report, was "sell the hell out of them" in that rqport? 107 109 1 but we need to get everybody on the same page. Make sure 2 everybody understands what everybody else was doing and come 3 up with a focused path forward. 4 Q. Okay. So this is -- just to recap just a 5 little, we're starting November of '66 or Novarber, Decarber 6 of '66. So we're just in August of '69, and Monsanto says we 7 have to put a conmittee together to handle this prcblan. 8 A. Well, we've got to focus. 9 They were dealing with the problem throughout that time 10 frame, but this was really to get focused and make sure 11 everybody, all the departments, were on the same page, as I 12 said, come up with a path forward. 13 Q. New, the jury has seen Exhibit 129 and it was 14 handwritten document which were some notes from, I think, one 15 of the early meetings of the ad hoc committee. 16 Do you ranember seeing that? 17 A. I do. 18 Q. And it made some comment about "sell the hell 19 out of them." 20 Do you ranember that? 21 A. Right. 22 Q. Did that represent the position of the company 2 3 at the time? 24 A. No. It was a handwritten note. Somdsody was 25 jotting down what are our options. 26 One of those options, I guess the phrasing is 27 unfortunate, but sell the hell out of than. Get the money 28 while we can, you know, before they could go out of business. 1 A. No, it was not. Actually, quite the opposite. 2 Q. And we're going to get to that. 3 So November of '69, you have your minutes of CDC noting 4 1254 and 1260 found in the environment. 5 What are you indicating for us? 6 A. Well, the CDC was the corporate development 7 committee. It was basically all the upper management 8 throughout the whole company, and they were obviously 9 interested in what was going on. 10 The ad hoc committee was making reports to the 11 corporate development committee. And they, in fact, thought 12 it was important, and it was important, to let the committee 13 know that it's the higher chlorinated materials that are being 14 found, not the Arcelor 1242 type of materials, with the 15 implication that these are the things that we should focus on. 16 what can we do to limit discharges or environmental presence 17 of these higher chlorinated materials. 18 Q. Right. Just for our record I'm showing you and 19 the jury Exhibit 615. 20 So tell us what you have here. 21 All 22 plasticizer replacement options sent to N3R in 22 March, Tpril were turned down by NCR and this MIPB is the best 2 3 option. 24 What are you referring to here. What is happening with 25 NCR? 26 A. Even though 1242 was not being found in the 27 environment, our experiments had shown us that it could be 28 released if the paper were burned. Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067737 110 112 1 So we saw earlier that NCR was notified very early on. 2 We had been working with N2R to cane up with a rqolaconent 3 product to replace FCBs in this carbonless copy paper. 4 We had sent them, according to one mono, 22 different 5 materials, none of which worked. 6 Finally our chemists came up with an MTRP, -which is a 7 non-chlorinated biphenyl product -- didn't have any chlorine 8 in it at all -- that seamed to be satisfactory. 9 So, again, -we're -- even though 1242 is not there. 10 we're still trying to help NCR get it out of their product 11 line. 12 Q. And just for continuity purposes, -we're up to 13 Novomber of 1969. 14 Any messages from any of these researchers, any of 15 these governments, that levels of FCBs in the environment are 16 causing an environmental danger? 17 A. Well, just the speculation we talked about in 18 the Risebrough report about eggshell thinning. 19 Q. And that was found not to be FCBs? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. Anything else from any of these researchers or 22 any of these universities that FCBs are causing harm to humans 2 3 or cancer in humans or non-Hcdgkin's lymphoma in humans? 24 A. Certainly nothing in humans, no. 25 Q. So Monsanto in November of 1969, after the ad 26 hoc committee has met and reported, adepts a 12-point plan of 27 action, correct? 28 A. That's correct. 1 A. Yes, it was. 2 Q. This is how Monsanto moved forward from this 3 point? 4 A. Yes, absolutely. 5 Q. Okay. So let's go back to our timeline here. 6 We're in 1970 now. There is a 12-point plan. And 7 Monsanto meets with GE. 8 Why are they meeting with GE right now? 9 A. Well, GE is our biggest customer. 10 Again, the electrical uses are by far the biggest 11 proportion of where all the FCBs are going. 12 One of the aspects of the plan was possibly to reduce 13 manufacture of some of the FCBs that were going into 14 transformers. So Monsanto and GE were getting together to 15 discuss, you know, what Monsanto's plans were, what General 16 Electric's needs were, what their experiences were. 17 So it was quite an Important meeting. 18 Q. So just so our jury is clear, GE wasn't invited 19 to discuss the 12-point plan, right? 20 A. Oh, no, no. 21 Q. So they had to inform GE what they were going to 22 do? 2 3 A. Right. 24 Q. And these are the minutes of the meeting 25 with GE? 26 A. That's correct, yes. 27 Q. And basically it says exactly what you just 28 said. They say what you just said about what happened at the Ill 113 1 Q. And -what is the -- tell the jury a little bit 2 about the 12-point plan. 3 A. Well, basically, as it says, the committee 4 recommended, after considering all the information they had. 5 both internally and externally, that there -were 12 things that 6 Monsanto needed to do right away to get their arms around this 7 problom and try to, you know, do -what they can to minimize the 8 effects. 9 So this final report, the outline of the minutes of the 10 meeting specifies what those 12 points were. 11 Q. Okay. So one of the points -- well, here's a 12 front page. This was the recommendation, why they even put 13 the plan together? 14 A. Exactly. You know, to establish a program for 15 each business group and each customer to make sure that our 16 efforts are focused in the right place with the right people. 17 Q. And these were the 12 points, correct? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. The first one being appoint a project manager. 20 And who was that? 21 A. That was Dr. Papageorge. Bill Papageorge, who 22 had been the plant manager at our Anniston plant, was brought 2 3 to St. Louis to basically take over all responsibility for the 24 FSB issues at Monsanto. 25 Q. So this plan was set up for approval by the 26 board, right? 27 A. Yes, that's correct. 28 Q. And, in fact, was it approved? 1 meeting, these minutes here? 2 A. Yes. That's really what the purpose of the 3 meeting was, was that, yes. There were some important 4 outcomes, but, yes. 5 Q. And GE's response to this meeting was what? 6 A. Well, once they found out that Monsanto might 7 discontinue the sale of these higher chlorinated materials. 8 they said you can't do that. That's impossible. It will shut 9 down the power grid in the country. We don't have a 10 replacement, and you need to keep making them. 11 Q. By the way, they also told them -- 12 A. Right. And then also health issues were 13 discussed. 14 And they said, and Monsanto already knew this, but that 15 GE hadn't had any health problems with their workers for 16 40 years. And their workers were being exposed at much higher 17 levels than Monsanto's. 18 Q. Now, Monsanto's work at this time is being 19 recognized as kind of cutting edge, correct? 20 A. Yes, absolutely. 21 Q. In fact, you have here Monsanto sent its 22 analytical methods. 2 3 Who is the National Air Pollution Control 24 Administration? 25 A. Well, obviously, I think, from the name, they 26 are the people who are responsible for air quality in the 27 United States. 28 Q. Okay. Is there a need for uniformity around Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067738 114 116 1 this time amongst people like you, analytical chanists? 2 A. Yes, there is. It's very important, and I 3 mentioned earlier, Monsanto had set on a path to become the 4 world-class laboratory, which they did. 5 But it's very important that if you're going to look at 6 results from one laboratory and compare them to results from a 7 different company or a different university, you have to have 8 standardized methods. You have to be sure that everyone is on 9 the same page, so to speak, that they're using the same 10 methods. 11 So that if one person says X, the other person says X, 12 you know it's the same. Or if one says X and one says Y, you 13 can be sure it's different. 14 So it's very important that people are using the same 15 methods. 16 Q. When you say "method," what do you mean? 17 A. It's basically a cookbook on how you analyze for 18 ECBs. So it's a step even more detailed than a cookbook, but 19 a step-by-step procedure how you take your sample, how you 20 treat the sample, how you measure the sample, how you 21 calculate the results, how you report the results. 22 So the chemists follow that very carefully so that they 2 3 know that when they're talking to each other, they can, you 24 know, trust each other's results. 25 Q. So part of the 12-point plan was to get out of 26 certain businesses, correct? 27 A. Yes, absolutely. 28 Q. And they're telling GE they plan to stop making 1 decision. 2 Q. Okay. And they actually alert their direct 3 customers? 4 A. Exactly, yes. 5 Q. So what are we looking at here. Dr. Kaley? 6 A. Well, this is the letter to the suppliers or to 7 the distributors, I believe, that, you know, we're selling you 8 these materials, and we're going to let you know that there is 9 an environmental issue and we want you to be aware of it. 10 THE COURT: What exhibit is this? 11 MR. UPSHAW: This is Exhibit 641, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 Q. BY MR. UPSHAW: Okay. So is Monsanto telling 14 everyone about environmental warnings now, these technical 15 bulletins? 16 A. Yes. One of the -- I believe one of the 12 17 points of the 12-point plan was to tell our customers how to 18 behave when they were using this material, how to dispose of 19 it. Be careful you don't dispose of it near any body of 20 water, things like that. 21 So Monsanto said the best way to do this is to put a 22 warning on our product bulletins and on our labels so 2 3 everybody that's getting our product sees that warning. 24 Q. Again, anyone out of all of the researchers and 25 universities and independent researchers who were doing 26 research now, any indication from any of them to Monsanto 27 that, hey, your FCBs are having an effect or causing illness 28 in humans? 115 117 1 PGBs, and GE says no? 2 A. Well, they weren't -- they really weren't -- for 3 the electrical equipment manufacturers, they weren't telling 4 them they were going to quit making FCBs. They told thorn they 5 uere thinking about some product lines; specifically Arcelor 6 1254 and Aroclor 1260. Those were the two that were most 7 prevalent in transformers, which was the biggest business. 8 And GE was saying, look, you knew, 1242, you may keqo 9 making that, but it's not that great for transformers. We 10 need this other stuff. 11 So eventually Monsanto did continue to make 1254, but 12 they stopped making 1260, which was the most chlorinated. 13 So that's really what that is about. 14 Q. So in February of 1970, of all the other 15 customers other than the transformer and capacitor customers. 16 Monsanto alerts distributors regarding FCBs, right? 17 A. Yes, correct. 18 Q. And what do they tell thorn? 19 A. Pardon? 20 Q. What are they telling thorn? 21 A. Well, as I mentioned, a lot of the ECBs 22 specifically in the plasticizer business group were sold to 2 3 distributors who then sold them to other customers. So 24 Monsanto didn't necessarily know where the product was going 25 of that point. 26 So Monsanto was saying, hey, we're getting out of these 27 businesses. We have or we're going to tell our direct 28 customers, but you guys need to tell your customers about our 1 A. No, there was no such. 2 Q. Or animals at this point? 3 A. No. Not at this point, no. 4 Q. So if we move forward, what are we looking at 5 here in March of 1970, Doctor? 6 This is Exhibit 618. This is including the 7 environmental warning, I believe? 8 A. Yes. This is a product bulletin that had been 9 adapted to include that new warning. 10 Q. All right. And is this the warning here? 11 A. Yes, it is. 12 Q. Okay. New, are they also not only including the 13 warning, but talking to customers about best practices at this 14 as well? 15 A. Yes, absolutely. We're working with our 16 customers very closely to be sure they understand the issue 17 and making suggestions on hew to deal with the issue. 18 Q. Monsanto is sharing its analytical techniques 19 with government agencies? 20 A. Right, yes. 21 Q. Why? 22 A. Again, it's the same issue we talked about 2 3 before, that Monsanto had developed probably at that time the 24 best in the country way of analyzing for FCBs, so they were 25 selling their methodology. 26 Q. I'm showing Exhibit 617. 27 Thank you, Mr. Aquino. 28 And Monsanto is discussing its analytical -- having to Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067739 118 120 1 discuss its analytical work. 2 Who is Jay Telling of Unilever? 3 Can you read that first sentence? 4 A. He's somebody -- one of our customers. 5 Unilever was another manufacturer in Great Britain. He 6 was coning to the United States for a visit and had inquired 7 about talking to our people in the U.S. about analytical 8 methods for FCBs. 9 Q. What is this? 10 I'm sorry. In April of 1970 Monsanto urges the USDA to 11 block registration. 12 Registration of what? 13 A. Registration of pesticides that might -- if they 14 did, might contain FCBs. Actually Dr. Kelly wrote a letter to 15 the U.S. Department of Agriculture saying we're not really 16 aware that people are using FCBs in pesticides, but if they 17 are, you should not re-register those products. Should not 18 allow than to be used anymore. 19 Q. Okay. Fish and Wildlife gets the analytical 20 methods for testing. That's the same thing we've been talking 21 about, another example of passing on our expertise? 22 A. Exactly, yes. 2 3 Q. And this is Exhibit 620. 24 If you could just blow that up really quick. 25 What is EWFCA? 26 A. That's the Federal Water Pollution Control 27 Association, so another federal regulatory agency. 28 THE COURT: What exhibit is that? 1 Q. Okay. And this is what we tell them, "Monsanto 2 is discontinuing PCB sales for most applications." 3 This is Exhibit 626, correct? 4 A. Right. 5 Again, this is a report to the corporate management 6 committee, basically another name for the corporate 7 development committee, saying that's what we're going to do. 8 We're going to quit selling for these applications. 9 Q. And, in fact, they're saying they want it done 10 by August? 11 A. I believe that's correct, yes. 12 Q. This is Rhy. 13 A. It happened fast. 14 Q. Okay. Let's talk a little bit about open versus 15 closed application and the use of those words. 16 The jury here has seen slides saying that Monsanto was 17 selling FCBs for open applications in the 1930s. 18 Did Monsanto ever call any of its applications open or 19 uncontrolled uses prior to 1966 and the finding of Jensen and 20 Widmark? 21 A. No. Those terminologies really grew out of the 22 environmental awareness around FCBs and what uses were 2 3 enclosed in whether heat transfer system or transformers or 24 were in plasticizers or some other, you knew, non-contained 25 application. 26 Q. Any documents that referred to plasticizers or 27 anything else as an open application in the '30s? 28 A. No. 119 121 1 MR. UPSHAW: It's 6 -2 THE COURT: 20. 3 MR. UPSHAW: 620. Okay. 4 Q. So also in April, "Corporate managanent 5 committee requests development of NCR replacement on a crash 6 basis." 7 What dees that mean? 8 A. Well, basically, although they had already 9 identified a potential replacement product for FCBs, the 10 corporate managanent conmittee told the business group they 11 weren't moving fast enough to get, you know -- to get the PCBs 12 out of those products. 13 Q. So NCR is rejecting everything that Monsanto 14 suggests for than? 15 A. Well, they had accepted MIPB by that time, but 16 we really didn't have a facility available to make it in the 17 quantities they needed. 18 Q. So in fact does Monsanto build a facility to 19 accommodate this customer? 20 A. Yeah. I think there may actually be a bullet on 21 that a little later, but, yes, that did occur. 22 Q. Okay. So this is part of that, right, "We're 2 3 urging NCR to expedite the changeover"? 24 A. Right. Exactly. 25 Q. What's happening in May of 1970? 26 A. Well, May, 1970 we announced to our plasticizer 27 customers and some others that we're going to quit making PCBs 28 for the purposes that you're using them. 1 Q. Or the '40s, for that matter? 2 A. No, not that I've ever seen, no. 3 Q. Or the '50s? 4 A. Right. 5 Q. So when Monsanto sold plasticizers in the 6 '40s -- in the '40s to the '60s, actually, did Monsanto think 7 of those plasticizers as open, like they would get in the 8 environment or be widespread in any way? 9 A. No. They were intended to be integrated into 10 the plastic itself and stay in that plastic, which, in fact. 11 they largely did. Otherwise the plastic wouldn't have worked 12 anymore. 13 Q. Femind the jury what percentage of PCB sales 14 were for sealed systems. 15 A. Well, if you include -- depending on hew you 16 calculate it, 77 percent certainly for electrical and another 17 couple percent for heat transfer systans. 18 The hydraulic systems were kind of in between 19 somewhere. So about 85 percent were really for closed 20 systans. 21 Q. All right. So let's move on. 22 Monsanto notifies customers of termination of FCB 2 3 plasticizer sales." 24 So they're getting out of the PCB plasticizer business? 25 A. That's correct. Yes. That was one of the first 26 product lines to be eliminated. 27 Q. They notify food industry customers of 28 termination of Therminol FR? Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067740 122 124 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. But not all Therminol? 3 A. No. At this point it was just those -- simply 4 the food industry customers. 5 Q. Okay. Were there any indications at this time 6 that either plasticizers or Therminol were in high levels in 7 the environment? 8 A. No. The levels in the environment of FCBs 9 generally were relatively low compared to what people had keen 10 used to considering. 11 Q. Okay. How about, was there any indication at 12 this point they're harmful to humans or animals? 13 A. No. 14 Q. So why is it that Monsanto is voluntarily 15 getting out of of the FOB plasticizer business and voluntarily 16 getting out of the food contamination -- I'm sorry, getting 17 out of the food industry use of Therminol? 18 A. Well, it was clear that ECBs were involved in 19 the environment. They were there. 20 It's an industrial chemical. Part of the environmental 21 awareness was, you know, some things don't really belong in 22 the environment. 2 3 So Monsanto was doing everything it could to be sure 24 that its product line, you know, was not being used in 25 applications where it could easily get into the environment. 26 Q. Anybody forcing Monsanto, a government or 27 anyone, forcing Monsanto to get out of the business of FSB 28 plasticizers or Therminol? 1 A. Right. This is specific to distributors, but 2 the customers were also included. 3 Q. Now, would this have been called an incentive 4 program? 5 A. Yeah. Because if you read it carefully, you'll 6 note that the sooner they can send thorn back, the more of 7 their purchase price would be refunded. 8 So it was an incentive to get thorn back fast, get thorn 9 out of their systems. 10 Q. And what did Monsanto do with the materials it 11 got back? 12 A. Well, for a while they stored them, but one of 13 the things on the 12-point plan was to stub/ incineration as a 14 way of getting rid of FCBs. 15 And I might make a little digression here. 16 Q. Sure. 17 A. Okay. We've been talking FCBs are 18 non-flammable. They won't bum. Well, then, hew do you get 19 rid of thorn by incineration? 20 The distinction is that FCBs by themselves will not 21 bum. If you hold a match to a can of FCBs, nothing is going 22 to happen. But if you put FCBs in a fire that' s already very 2 3 hot, already has a lot of heat energy in it, then there is 24 enough energy in there to destroy FCBs. 25 In fact, even today, the recommended way to get rid of 26 FCBs is incineration. So it sounds, like, a little 27 disjointed, but in fact that's the situation. 28 You have to have an external fuel to get the fire hot 123 125 1 A. No, there was no such pressure. 2 Q. So NCR chaoses this MTPB as a replacement for 3 1242? 4 A. Right. 5 Q. And MIPB is just another chemical, right? 6 A. Yes. Like I said, it's a biphenyl. The B 7 stands for biphenyl, but it's not chlorinated. 8 Q. And it took them how long to find this and 9 accept this replacement? 10 A. Well, it's been going on for a year or so. 11 Q. And as we said, Monsanto had to actually develop 12 a facility to make enough of this MTRP for commercial use? 13 A. Right. They did not have a plant big enough to 14 make it. 15 Q. So what is the takeback pregram that you're 16 referring to here? 17 A. Well, one of our early dccuments talked about 18 that a little bit, but Monsanto had for some time -- had a 19 program to take back used product or old heat transfer fluids 20 or whatever that would otherwise have been disposed of, to 21 take those back under Monsanto's control. 22 And at this point in time Monsanto basically 2 3 accelerated that program and extended it so we could get 24 control of more of those materials. 25 Q. Okay. So we're looking at Exhibit 627. If you 26 go right to the top of that. 27 This is the policy concerning distributor's return of 28 Aroclors. So distributors as well as customers could return? 1 enough. It actually takes almost 2000 degrees to get rid of 2 FCBs. 3 So back to your question. Pardon the interruption or 4 the digression. 5 Q. It's okay. 6 A. So Monsanto was looking at incineration, in 7 fact, eventually built an incinerator. So Monsanto was 8 storing these materials until they could dispose of thorn 9 correctly. 10 Q. And did customers actually take Monsanto up on 11 this? 12 A. Oh, they sure did, yes. 13 Q. Was this a voluntary program? 14 A. Oh, yes, it was. Sure. 15 Q. The government didn't order Monsanto take back 16 these materials that were in use? 17 A. No. 18 Q. How about the incineration technology. Did 19 Monsanto actually develop on its own? 20 A. Well, it developed it in conjunction with an 21 incineration company, a company that kneiv how to build 22 incinerators. 2 3 Monsanto knew what they needed to do to make it work 24 correctly and to help thorn ensure that it did work correctly. 25 So it was really in conjunction with an incinerator 26 manufacturer. 27 Q. And the creation of this incinerator technology. 28 was that voluntary as well? Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067741 126 128 1 A. Sure. Yes, it was. 2 Q. Not ordered by any government to do so? 3 A. No. 4 Q. So Monsanto in '71 sends a letter to customers 5 regarding the discontinuation of Therminol ER. I think we've 6 talked about that. 7 So they're corrpletely pulling out of the heat transfer 8 market then? 9 A. Well, the Therminol -- the FCB heat transfer 10 market, yes. 11 Q. Right. Nothing that was required for them to do 12 so? 13 A. No. 14 Q. In 1971 you have here an interdepartmental task 15 force is formed. 16 Tell the jury about what the interdepartmental task 17 force was. 18 A. Well, this was kind of the U.S. Government's 19 response or reaction similar to the Monsanto ad hoc conmittee. 20 This was a group of various federal agencies that sent 21 representatives to this task force to study everything that 22 was known about FCBs at the time, accumulate that together and 2 3 make some recommendations on how the government should be 24 considering to deal with this ECB issue. 25 Q. So in September of '71, this is not the first 26 time the government decides to take a look at FCBs? 27 A. Oh, no. 28 As you've seen from earlier documents, we've been 1 asked for samples? 2 A. Right, the EDA, the Department of Interior, the 3 Efepartment of Agriculture, yes. 4 Q. Now, did Monsanto have input into the findings 5 of the task force? 6 A. Yes. Monsanto and other users, the user 7 community, were invited to make presentations, yes. 8 Q. So not the -- Monsanto wasn't the only one. 9 There were a lot of companies that provided data and made 10 presentations? 11 A. That's correct. Yes, absolutely. 12 Q. Okay. Now, the report wasn't just -- was it 13 just a report or was it more to the entire document? 14 A. Well, no. Each of these agencies or parts of 15 each of these agencies had prepared rqports within their own 16 agency. Those were submitted to the task force and then were 17 included into the final report. 18 The final report's, I think, only maybe a quarter or a 19 third of the whole document. 20 Q. All right. So this wasn't the entire report and 21 the appendices were not just six months of work then? 22 A. Oh, no. As we've seen, these agencies have been 2 3 working on these issues for years. 24 Q. So what was the conclusion of this U.S. 25 interdepartmental task force? 26 A. Well, there were several, but one of them was. 27 as it says, "The continued use for transformers and capacitors 28 in the electrical industry is necessary for the near future 127 129 1 sending samples to government laboratories. They've been 2 publishing data in the open scientific literature, but this is 3 really the first time to get them all together and make sure 4 there was a unified path forward. 5 Q. So rererber I said remember the date in 1968? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. The first time it was sent? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And we saw several dates, as you've pointed out. 10 to different U.S. agencies? 11 A. Right. 12 Q. Were those agencies part of the 13 interdepartmental task force? 14 A. Oh, yes, definitely. The department of the -- 15 the USDA, the Department of Interior, absolutely. 16 Q. So this is the cover -- 17 MR. UPSBAW: It's Exhibit 630, your Honor. 18 Q. This is the cover of the interdepartmental task 19 force report, correct? 20 A. Yes, it is. 21 Q. It came out in May of 1972? 22 A. Correct. 2 3 Q. Government document, not a Monsanto document? 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. Were these the agencies that made up that task 26 force? 27 A. Yes. 28 Q. Sane of the same ones we saw previously that 1 because of risk of fire and explosion." 2 Q. This is May of '72? 3 A. Yes, correct. 4 Q. Was this another conclusion? 5 A. Yes. 6 They did iterate or report that there was no data. 7 either toxicological or ecological, available that the levels 8 currently in the environment were a threat to human health. 9 Q. This is not a Monsanto report. This is a U.S. 10 Government report? 11 A. That's correct, yes. 12 Q. What about diet? 13 A. Well, again, along that line, they concluded at 14 that point that dietary intake of ECBs was low and didn't 15 present a health hazard. 16 Q. Did Monsanto have any information that was 17 contrary to anything we've just seen or any of the conclusions 18 that we've just looked at? 19 A. No, they did not. 20 Q. Now, about this -- actually, let me show you the 21 appendix, please. That would be great. 22 Just so we have an idea that this wasn't sanething that 2 3 was put together in six months. 24 May I have the Firm. 25 This is page 31 of Exhibit 630. I'll zoon in a little 26 bit. 27 Can you see that? 28 A. Yes. Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067742 130 132 1 Q. So let's see. 2 Saneone like the National Bureau of Standards put out 3 approximately a 30-page rqport? 4 A. Correct, yes. 5 Q. And someone -- I'll just skip around. 6 Food and Drug Administration Department. E, Occurrence 7 and Source of FCBs in Food, was a little less than 20 pages? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. And someone like, G, Biological Data on FCBs in 10 Animals Other Than Man by the Bureau of Sport Fisheries, 11 another 20 some-odd pages? 12 A. Yes, 15, 20. Yes. 13 Q. 15, 20. Okay. 14 Thank you. 15 So in 1972, even after this report, is Monsanto still 16 required to sell FCBs to certain government agencies? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Actually a better question. 19 Was Monsanto required to continue sale of FCBs to 20 certain companies? 21 A. Yes, they were. 22 Q. And you've put up here, "The government requires 2 3 sale of 1242 under the Defense Production Act." 24 Are you aware of what the Defense Production Act is? 25 A. Generally, yes. 26 Q. And tell the jury. 27 A. Well, basically it's an act that gives the 28 government the power to require companies to make and sell to 1 Q. Okay. I think that's what they say here at the 2 bottom paragraph as well, right? 3 A. Right. 4 Q. They're sending enclosed documents to Elmerson 5 and Cuming? 6 A. Right. 7 Q. I think that's just the last page. 8 A. Right. They're required to do that. 9 Q. And this is the actual bill of lading or the 10 purchase order? 11 A. That's correct. Yes, it is. 12 Q. So 1974, again, Monsanto's analytical methods 13 are being adopted by which organization? Co you recall? 14 A. Yes. It's called the ASTM. It's the American 15 Society for Testing and Materials. 16 It's a nationwide organization that has existed for 17 decades that basically develops standardized test methods. 18 standardized products. 19 The ASTM is one of the reasons why if you have an 20 electrical appliance, it always fits in the plug. They 21 standardized those kind of things to be sure that, again. 22 everybody is doing the same thing for the convenience and the 2 3 safety of the consumer. 24 Q. So not just Emerson, but even another group has 25 made a request and Monsanto has to comply for 1242? 26 A. Right. This is another request from the 27 government that Monsanto ship these materials, Arcelor 1242, 28 to a government contractor. 131 133 1 them products that are necessary for defense, for the defense 2 of the country. 3 Q. Okay. 4 MR. UPSFAW: And if you could blow that up, please. 5 Mr. Aquino. 6 THE COURT: It's 314? 7 MR. UPSFAW: 814. Because I keqo missing it before I 8 blow it up. 9 814, your Honor. 10 Q. Okay. So what are we looking at here? It's a 11 U.S. Department of Ccmmerce -- it looks like a letter? 12 A. Right. Well, this is one example of those 13 requirements from the government. It's from the Department of 14 Commerce. It says you are directed to be a accept this 15 purchase order, and you need to notify the federal officers 16 that you're actually going to do what this letter requires. 17 Q. Okay. It doesn't look to me as if it's 18 voluntary; like they cannot do what they're being asked to do. 19 A. No. The bottom line, it's required. 20 Q. Okay. And here, 1972, another letter. 21 A. Right. 22 Q. Actually this is a response to the Department of 2 3 Commerce. 24 A. Right. This is basically Monsanto saying, you 25 know, we got your letter. We understand. We want you to know 26 there's these environmental concerns with FCBs, but it's our 27 understanding that we don't have any choice. So we will 28 comply. 1 Q. And that is Raytheon Mlissile Systems? 2 A. Correct, yes. 3 Q. And I think they give you two choices here. 4 You can check one box or the other. 5 A. Right. Exactly. 6 Q. And Monsanto complies, correct? 7 A. That's correct, yes. 8 Q. All right. So let's talk about 1975, if we can. 9 as we move forward. 10 The Kimbrough study. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Tell the jury about the Kimbrough study and why 13 it's important. 14 A. Yes. 15 Well, Renate Kimbrough was a researcher at the Centers 16 for Disease Control in Atlanta. 17 They were interested, as were other government 18 agencies, in FCB toxicology. She was studying the effects of 19 Arcelor 1260 in rats. 20 In 1975 published a paper that said Aroclor 1260 caused 21 liver cancer at high doses in the rats in her study. 22 This was really the first rqport of FCBs as 2 3 cancer-causing in rats in the literature. 24 Q. So we saw earlier that Monsanto had commissioned 25 IBT to do a long-term study. And what were the results of 26 their study? 27 A. Yes. They had actually studied three Arcclors, 28 1242, 1254 and 1260. Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067743 134 136 1 In contrast to what Dr. Kittbrough had reported, their 2 studies of Arcelor 1260 did not indicate that there was cancer 3 present. 4 Q. And there was a slight issue with how that was 5 worded, right? 6 A. I'm sorry? 7 Q. A slight issue with the wording between 8 "slightly tumorgenic" versus "does not appear to be 9 carcinogenic' 7> 10 A. Yes. There were some different wording in the 11 final reports to Monsanto on those various Arcclors. 12 Q. Now, the phrase "does not appear to be 13 carcinogenic. " was that incorrect regarding their finding? 14 A. No. It was correct. They did not find cancer 15 in the laboratory animals. 16 Q. Okay. So Dr. Kimbrough's study actually found 17 liver cancer. right? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. You've met Dr. Kimbrough? 20 A. Yes, I know Dr. Kimbrough. I actually consider 21 her a friend. 22 Q. Now, even though it found liver cancer in 2 3 those -- was it female rats? 24 A. It was female rats, yes. 25 Q. Did she use high doses? 26 A. Yes. They were, like, 100 parts per million. 27 which is quite high. 28 Q. Okay. More than what the general population is 1 Q. And what was his result? 2 A. His conclusion was that Dr. Kimbrough, although 3 she did see changes in the liver, that they really weren't 4 cancers. 5 Q. And this was his opinion here? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. All right. So Monsanto announces a complete 8 shutdown of EB production in -- 9 I'm sorry. That was 695, the other slide I showed. 10 your Honor. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 MR. UPSHAW: Ms. Buck is keqoing me in line with my 13 exhibit numbers. I appreciate it. 14 Q. So in January of 1976 Monsanto announces a 15 complete shutdown of ECB production. 16 Tell the jury what's really happening with Monsanto at 17 this time. What' s really happening? 18 A. Basically, you know, four or five years earlier. 19 Monsanto had shut down all their production or all their sales 20 to what were then called open uses and were only selling to 21 the electrical industry. 22 But Monsanto had made it clear that they and others 2 3 needed to be looking for replacements in electrical 24 applications. 25 And Monsanto basically said at this point that once we 26 are notified by our electrical customers that there are 27 suitable applications, we're going to go completely out of the 28 business. 135 137 1 subjected to? 2 A. Yes, by many orders of magnitude, yes. 3 Q. Did she find any lymphoma? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Did she find any non-Hodgkin lymphoma? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Did Monsanto stop her from reporting her results 8 at all? 9 A. No. They had no way of doing that so, no. 10 absolutely not. 11 Q. What are we looking at here? 12 This is -- so let ire finish -- let's finish the story. 13 So Monsanto has the IBT study? 14 A. Right. 15 Q. And then Dr. Kimbrough comes out with her study? 16 A. Right. 17 Q. Which disagrees with what the IBT study said? 18 A. It's different, yes. 19 Q. Different. Different studies? 20 A. Right. 21 Q. So what dees Monsanto do then? 22 A. Well, they did several things. 2 3 First they actually met with Dr. Kimbrough and corpared 24 slides. The IBT people met. 25 They basically agreed maybe she really did see cancer. 26 But then Monsanto also contracted with the Eppley 27 Institute at the University of Nebraska to have one of the 28 toxicologists there evaluate both sets of slides. 1 Q. So in November Congress passes -- it's called 2 Tosca, but it's TSCA. What's that? 3 A. That's the Toxic Substances Control Act. It was 4 basically a new piece of legislation that gave the EPA the 5 authority to regulate chomicals that were in commerce. 6 Q. And this is passed by Congress 11 months after 7 Monsanto had announced it was getting out of the business. 8 correct? 9 A. That's correct, yes. 10 Q. Now, did Monsanto step manufacturing FCBs in the 11 summer of 1977? 12 A. Yes, they did. That's when the -- the actual 13 production stopped in July of '77, after they were notified by 14 their customers that there were substitutes available. 15 Q. Was this on time? Is this what they told their 16 customers, they would get out by July? 17 A. I think it was actually a little bit ahead of 18 time. 19 Q. And the last shipment was, I believe, in October 20 of '77? 21 A. That's correct, yes. 22 Q. So moving forward, in January of 1978 there is 2 3 the Nil, National Cancer Institute, and they have a press 24 release, right? 25 A. That's correct. 26 Q. Tell the jury why that press release is 27 important and why we should talk about it today. 28 A. Well, the National Cancer Institute by this time Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067744 138 140 1 had undertaken a two-year feeding study of Arcelor 1254, kind 2 of the moderately chlorinated material. 3 Basically the press release 'was accorrpanying the 4 release of that report. 5 Q. Okay. Now, was Monsanto still in the business 6 of ECBs at the time? 7 A. No. They had been out for, you know, six 8 months. 9 Q. And Monsanto had voluntarily ceased its 10 production? 11 A. Yes, absolutely. 12 Q. TSCA had passed by this time? 13 A. Yeah. TSCA had passed, but the regulations had 14 not been developed to regulate FCBs. 15 Q. So talk about that a little bit. 16 The regulations hadn't come out. 17 What did TSCA actually tell some agency to do? 18 A. Well, basically TSCA authorized or told the EPA 19 that they needed to develop regulations regarding the 20 manufacture and use of ECBs. 21 So, you know, you'll later hear that FCBs were banned 22 by TSCA. That's not quite true. 2 3 The EPA was given the authority to develop those 24 regulations, which, as we'll see, didn't come out until a 25 number of years later. 26 Q. So I didn't want to skip over the NCI press 27 release too much. I know we got a little ahead because that 28 comes a little later. 1 I mean, we could actually find FCBs in a transformer if 2 you really looked for it, right? 3 A. Well, it's not even -- we don't have to look for 4 it. Because if they're in there, they have to be labeled 5 under the regulations. 6 So they're very tightly controlled. 7 One point, if I could add a point, Mr. Upshaw. 8 Q. Yes. 9 A. One point we didn't make, and I don't know if 10 anybody has, is that FCBs were only used in about 5 percent of 11 transformers. 12 By far the majority of transformers didn't contain 13 FCBs. They only contained -- they were only used where there 14 was a real threat of fire. So they were used in office 15 buildings. They were used in electrical railroad systems, for 16 instance, in the northeast, and things like hospitals. They 17 were actually in the White House. 18 So wherever there was a threat of fire that would be 19 devastating to a property or people, PCBs were used. 20 The ones you see out in power stations along the 21 highway with all the wires and things, those don't now and 22 never did contain FCBs. 2 3 So it was a small market, actually. 24 Q. All right. Thank you for adding that. 25 In fact, hopefully the jury is going to hear from 26 Dr. Kytcmaa, who you are familiar with, correct? 27 A. Yes, I've met him. 28 Q. And talk about the use of FCBs in the electrical 13 9 141 1 But this is what Monsanto said, correct? 2 This is an NCI release, I'm sorry. 3 A. Right. This is the NCI release, the National 4 Cancer Institute. 5 Q. And their finding was what? 6 A. Well, that you can read, according to the 7 summary of the report included in the announcement, so they 8 were sending out the report, everybody could read the rqoort. 9 "Arcelor 1254 was not carcinogenic to rats under the test 10 conditions." 11 Q. Okay. So this is what we were talking about 12 with EPA issuing a final rule, right? 13 A. Right, yes. 14 Q. And it did not ban PCBs, did it? 15 A. No. The final rule is quite complicated, but 16 it's called the ban rule in common usage, but it really didn't 17 ban FCBs. 18 It essentially banned the manufacture of PCBs at 19 commercial levels. Some people can still make FCBs for 20 research reasons. 21 And it highly regulated the use of FCBs. But, in fact. 22 some PCBs can still legally be used today in some electrical 2 3 equipment. 24 Q. In fact, aren't PCBs today being used in 25 transformers and capacitors? 26 A. Not in capacitors anymore. In transformers they 27 are still used to some extent. 28 Q. To some extent. 1 system. 2 A. Right. 3 Q. So, Dr. Kaley, I want to ask you this question. 4 When Monsanto left the business in 1977, was there a 5 clear, consistent message from the animal testing folks. 6 researchers, that FCBs caused cancer in animals? 7 A. No, there was not. There was different 8 evidence. 9 One stub/ said, yes. The NCI study on a different 10 Arcelor said no. The IBT stub/ said no. 11 So there were seme studies in Japan on mice, some of 12 which said yes, seme of which said no. So there was no clear 13 picture at all. 14 THE COURT: How much more do you have? 15 MR. UPSHAW: I should be done in three to four minutes. 16 THE COURT: Okay. Good. 17 Q. BY MR. UPSHAW: We're looking at here -- 18 THE COURT: Exhibit 663? 19 Q. BY MR. UPSHAW: Exhibit 663, which is a letter 20 from the Environmental Defense Fund. 21 Can you explain to the jury what the Environmental 22 Defense Fund was and what they were doing about this time. 2 3 A. Yes. 24 The Environmental Defense Fund is one of the -- was and 25 still is one of the most active environmental groups in the 26 country. 27 As this environmental awareness was developing in the 28 United States and really worldwide, the Environmental Defense Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067745 142 144 1 Rind was formed first as a small group, and then got much 2 larger to kind of put the heat on industry, on the government. 3 to move things faster. You're not doing enough. You're not 4 doing it fast enough, actually resorted to litigation in seme 5 particular cases to make the EPA move faster. 6 So they wore a very active environmental organization. 7 Q. So they were like the environmental rights 8 movement. They put pressure on companies to try to clean up 9 their acts and be better companies? 10 A. Companies and the government, yes. 11 Q. And so they wrote a letter to Monsanto, correct? 12 A. Yes, they did. 13 Q. And if we can, Mr. Kaley, let's look at that 14 entire letter, the body of that letter. 15 Okay. So I'm going to start with the first paragraph. 16 They received a letter dated August 13 to Mr. Marston of 17 Robert Marston Associates, Inc. 18 And, "Your letter expressed concern about a newspaper 19 article written by Joe Wing which asserts that Monsanto makes 20 DDT in Anaheim California." 21 Can you explain the back story to that? 22 A. Well, yes. 2 3 Apparently at this point in time there was -- it became 24 known that there was DDT contamination in the Bay, Los Angeles 25 Bay, basically, or whatever, Los Angeles Harbor and the 26 newspaper article basically had misstated that Monsanto was 27 the manufacturer of that -- of those -- of that DDT. 28 Q. And the Environmental Defense Fund writes: 1 society rather than its short-term economic 2 interest. We have great respect for you." 3 This was received by Monsanto? 4 A. Yes, it was. 5 Q. Did Monsanto provide products -- its products to 6 outside researchers from 1966 forward? 7 A. Oh, yes, they did. Absolutely. 8 Q. Did they develop and share their analytical 9 methods for detecting ECBs in the environment? 10 A. Yes, they did. 11 Q. Did they implement a takeback program that took 12 back their product? 13 A. Correct, yes. 14 Q. Did they work with customers to contain and 15 dispose of FCBs in an environmentally appropriate manner? 16 A. Absolutely, yes. 17 Q. Did they voluntarily step selling FCBs for all 18 but electrical uses in 1970, '71? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Voluntarily stopped selling all FCBs in 1977? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. Do you know of any other company that by the 2 3 1970s that had stepped production and sale and completely 24 discontinued a valued profitable product purely out of 25 environmental concerns? 26 A. I'm not aware of any. 27 Q. Was Monsanto the first one to do that? 28 A. As far as I know, yes. 14 3 145 1 "We're sorry for whatever distress this 2 factual error has caused you. Apparently 3 your name got confused with that of the 4 Montrose Corporation which dees operate a 5 very large manufacturing plant in Torrance, 6 California. I do not know what the source 7 of that confusion is." 8 The next paragraph says: 9 "At EDF we have been most impressed by 10 Monsanto's willingness to be responsible 11 where the environment is concerned. We 12 have closely watched the development of 13 information concerning the environmental 14 impact of Monsanto's product. 15 polychlorinated biphenyls, FCBs. What 16 impressed us most was Monsanto's attitude 17 and finally its action to lessen the 18 environmental degradation caused by its 19 product. 20 "We continue to watch your FCB cleanup 21 program to be sure that your action is as 22 good as your word. But, in the meantime. 2 3 we are impressed by your sensitivity and 24 responsibility. 25 "Indeed, in many informal conversations, we 26 have signaled out -- singled out your 27 company as being one capable of acting in 28 its own long-term interest and that of 1 MR. UPSHAW: All right. Pass the witness. 2 THE COURT: Let's take our noon recess new. 3 Keqo in mind the admonition. 4 See you all back at 1:30. 5 (The following proceedings were held 6 outside the jury's presence.) 7 THE COURT: In the case of Dauber versus Monsanto, the 8 record will reflect that all counsel are present. Ml jurors 9 and alternates are out of the courtroom. 10 Mr. Frieling, Mr. Paul? 11 MR. PAUL: Very quickly, your Honor. 12 I want to indicate to the Court that I have gone 13 through the jury instructions. I pulled out the ones that the 14 Court has requested. 15 You'll notice some tabs on the sides. The greens ones. 16 both sides to agreed to those instructions. 17 The pinkish or red ones are plaintiffs' requested. 18 I have also indicated on your little tabs whether or 19 not we agree or disagree on whether that instruction is 20 necessary. 21 I know Mr. Blakey is going to be looking at it as well. 22 I don't want to keep holding onto it. So what I would 2 3 like to do is return this to Helen if I can. 24 THE COURT: Sure. 25 MR. PAUL: For safekeeping. 26 THE COURT: Has Mr. Blakey seen it? 27 MR. PAUL: He has already gone through it. I know he 28 is going to be doing some extra looking at it. Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067746 1 I 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 II 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 2.2 23 24 25 26 27 28 146 He does have some other instructions or special instructions he does want to talk to the Court about. What I will do is I'll tell Mr. Blakey I've given them to Helen, and he can look through them. THE COURT: Sounds good. Is that it? MR. FREELING: No. I have one issue, your Honor -- THE COURT: Okay. MR. FREELING: -- that concerns me. It's sensitive. It involves potentially privileged materials that Monsanto has produced to us in the past and that we have returned to than. And these materials, your Honor, I believe they directly contradict what their witness just said on the stand. I know he's in the courtrocm now. I don't want to get into specifics. THE COURT: Have you talked to the other side about this issue? MR. FREELING: I have not. THE COURT: Talk to other side about this issue. MR. FREELING: It was the subject of -- THE COURT: And see if you can work it out. MR. FREELING: Yes, your Honor. THE COURT: And let me know. How long is cross? MR. FREELING: It's substantial. It's going to be a long -- THE COURT: Mr. Upshaw went through several decades in real time. MR. FREELING: I know. I will try and hit the high 147 points. THE COURT: I don't know if you guys noticed. We were losing them about an hour and 15 minutes ago. MR. UPSHAW: It's a lot of material. THE COURT: All right. See you guys at 1:30. MR. FRIEILING: Thank, you your Honor. (At 12:00 noon, a recess was taken until 1:30 p.m. of the same day.) 1 .2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA FOR THE COUNTY OF IDS ANGELES DEPARTMENT 3 HON. J. STEPHEN CZU1EGER, JUDGE ROSLYN DAUBER, et vs. MONSANTO COMPANY, al., Plaintiffs, et al., Defendants. ) ) ) ) SUPERIOR COURT ) CASE NO. BC 483342, ETC. ) ) ) ) ) I, DAVID A. SALYER, Official Pro Tern Reporter of the Superior Court of the State of California, for the County of Los Angeles, do herdoy certify that the foregoing pages, 1 through 147, inclusive, comprise a true and correct transcript of the proceedings taken in the above-entitled natter reported by me on Rbrch 22, 2016. DATED: March 22, 2016. DAVID A. SALYER, CSR, RMR, CRR Official Pro Tam Court Reporter CSR No. 4410 Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067747 1 $16000 11:8,14 '70s 16:16 48:18 148:18 acting 143:27 adapted 117:9 '20s 34:12 '30s 29:12 30:12 33:16 34:12 42:6,26 48:5 60:21 78:19 120:27(10) '37 43:12 83:4 '38 43:12,23 '39 40:8 43:12 '40s 20:5 29:12 30:12 33:16 48:13,26 49:2,4 50:2 56:24 57:5 60:21 78:19 121:1,6,6(16) '50s 29:12 30:13 38:1448:13 57:8 59:6,16 73:10 78:20 103:13 121:3 (11) '56 58:11 '60s 29:13 38:15 48:18 60:5,5,6,10,22 62:1073:11 77:12,13 103:13 121:6(14) '61 66:6 '66 39:12 78:28 81:8,23 82:12 83:27 84:15 90:27 97:25 107:5,6(11) '67 90:26 91:20 '68 95:22,25 97:24 99:20 (4) '69 77:7,11,12 103:8 107:6 109:3 (6) '71 126:4,25 144:18 '72 129:2 '73 6:28 7:11 '75 10:11 '77 137:13,20 '81 7:11 '97 8:1 12point 110:26 111:2 112:6,19 114:25 116:17 124:13 (7) 1900s 18:7 1930s 18:10 20:5 40:5 43:10 120:17 (5) 1940s 18:10 1960s 18:12 29:3 64:14 1970s 144:23 2000s 18:6,8 25th 106:18 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213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067751 5 131:19 132:2 (8) bought 13:16 40:7 98:13 box 133:4 branch 17:16 22:10 branches 22:10 break 70:11,12 breathe 59:23,23 briefly 25:20 37:21 42:19 85:27 90:5 97:4 (6) britain 91:16 92:28 118:5 british 86:6 92:28 94:5,7 (4) broadbased 6:4 12:14 broader 99:7 broke 15:22 39:7 broken 15:6 brought 53:6 111:22 bubbles 23:23 buck 136:12 buck's 11:23 bugs 30:1 build 119:18 125:21 building 16:9 19:10 buildings 140:15 built 125:7 bullet 91:11 119:20 bulletin 50:5 60:11,13 117:8 (4) bulletins 45:18,27,28 48:27 49:8,11,25,26 59:16 62:1 75:10 78:24 116:15,22 (14) bureau 95:25 130:2,10 burn 124:18,21 burned 103:14 109:28 burning 103:17 business 8:6 10:24 12:5,6,7 14:7,13,28 15:1,4 16:16,18 17:8 81:10,12 91:24,28 107:28 111:15 115:7,22 119:10 121:24 122:15,27 136:28 137:7 138:5 141:4 (29) businesses 8:5 114:26 115:27 buy 71:28 buying 39:27 63:22 byproduct 28:15,27 cabinet 23:22 cables 41:21 cage 58:1 cal 9:26 calculate 114:21 121:16 California 1:3 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134:2,14,17,22 135:25 137:23,28 139:4 141:6 (29) cancercausing 133:23 cancers 52:8,9 82:26 136:4 (4) cannot 131:18 capable 143:27 capacitor 93:21 115:15 career 46:15 48:3 79:15,16 (4) careful 116:19 carefully 114:22 124:5 carloads 53:14 carrier 63:23,24 case 1:1,2,11,22 6:17 8:22 24:2 43:15 44:22 51:8 70:16 97:7 106:15 145:7 148:7 (15) cases 38:10 51:11,13 72:27 76:21 142:5 (6) cash 38:16 capacitors 33:24 60:11 128:27 139:25,26 (5) catalog 66:26 catch 60:8 capital 69:5,6 caught 99:24 car 13:4 37:20 72:20,22 (4) carbon 19:11 22:11,14,15,15 24:17,21 26:15,17 103:13 (10) carbonbased 22:12,13,13 cause 34:6 57:25 58:27 87:21 100:17(5) caused 42:25,27,28 133:20 141:6 143:2,18 (7) causes 49:18 Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067752 6 58:26 chart 23:673:6 causing 41:8 43:1 83:17 84:17 89:25 96:15,17 110:16,22 116:27 (10) chat 91:14 cheating 24:24 check 133:4 cdc 109:3,6 checked 76:7 ceased 138:9 centers 133:15 central 13:21 ceo 13:24 certain 6:10 67:7 106:5,11 114:26 130:16,20 (7) certainly 11:3 14:16 34:22 37:3 46:18,19 48:22 49:27 52:21 53:3,22,26 54:23 59:26 62:21 64:19 65:1 74:5 77:21 80:6 81:17 88:12,26 92:11 110:24 121:16 (26) chemical 6:9 8:5,12,13,16 10:5 12:19 14:1,7 20:15 23:20 24:1 25:16 26:6 29:13,18 30:8,18 31:1235:440:3 42:3 43:10 71:16 78:2,11 82:8,15 83:16 85:12 86:2 97:12 122:20 123:5 (34) chemically 20:25 30:26 chemicals 8:8,22,26 12:10 14:1025:16 28:4 29:4,26,26 32:24 65:8 78:9 81:3 85:10 99:5 137:5 (17) certify 148:16 cetera 7:6 31:18 chance 4:2,9 chemist 2:19,21 7:1 16:5 17:11,13,13,15 24:24 89:14 94:5,7 (12) change 11:9 17:9 24:5 53:4 79:23 (5) changed 8:3,3 41:5 chemistry 5:24,27 6:13 7:4,14 17:16,17 19:6,10,12 22:9,10,10 79:14 (14) chewing 67:3,11 68:2,6 70:1 (5) chicle 67:11 68:15 69:18 chip 77:19 chloracne 40:27 41:2,8 42:23,28 45:22 60:16 (7) chlorinate 28:12,22 chlorinated 22:6 25:3,5 28:23 32:10,13 38:24 39:8,11 41:9 105:11,22 109:13,17 113:7 115:12 123:7 138:2(18) chlorine 20:25 21:18,28 22:1,17 25:7,9 35:12,13 55:19 105:13,15,18 110:7(14) chlorines 22:3 25:8,14 26:15,17 31:9,17 (7) choice 131:27 choices 133:3 chooses 123:2 chromatograph 85:9,9,26 chronic 96:28 97:2,3 circle 23:3 24:25 city 29:19 civil 79:21 cl 105:12 claimed 67:7 clarified 47:21 clarify 44:9 dark 34:23 clean 142:8 combination 25:4 85:25 103:1 come 10:10 12:22 22:25 31:24 68:3 76:19 89:13 95:21 107:2,12 110:2 138:16,24 (13) comes 85:12 99:10 135:15 138:28 (4) coming 26:14 29:22 67:19 84:16 87:23 90:1 93:18 118:6(8) cleanup 143:20 clear 43:15 74:15 87:5 112:18 122:18 136:22 141:5,12 (8) comment 50:12 107:18 commerce 131:11,14,23 137:5 (4) clearly 24:3 37:16 38:9 88:1 (4) commercial 53:8 95:26 123:12 139:19(4) clerk 2:1,8,12 close 26:4 closed 101:25 120:15 121:19 closely 4:10 12:9 117:16 143:12 (4) cluster 52:1,4,8 clusters 52:9 coal 22:14 coast 99:18 commercially 53:27 56:22 65:3 commissioned 133:24 commissioning 96:12 committee 106:19,20,22 107:7,15 108:3,22,23 109:7,10,11,12 110:26 111:3 119:5,10 120:6,7 126:19(19) changeover 119:23 changes 79:22 136:3 chemists 6:10 17:27 18:5 86:20 88:17,20 103:4 106:27 110:6 114:1,22 (11) chronicle 99:14,21,25 100:22 (4) Cincinnati 57:13 coatings 41:16 code 21:24 Columbia 40:19 41:3 common 71:23 139:16 communicate 65:14 66:22 Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067753 7 communicating 81:17 communications 65:26 93:1 community 128:7 companies 12:19 13:13 36:10 40:6,17 48:17 56:12 67:10 68:12,14 73:13,27 128:9 130:20,28 142:8,9,10(18) company 4:21 7:2,24 8:2,4,6,12,1 4,16,27 11:1,4 12:3,8,12,15 13:17 14:1,7,27 15:4 20:15,15 38:4,14,14 40:1,3,3,7 49:28 51:7 54:1 69:1,20 82:15 85:24 91:21 96:4 107:22 109:8 114:7 125:21,21 143:27 144:22 148:8 (47) compare 73:22 114:6 compared 48:5 122:9 135:23 compelled 67:3 competitors 12:18 compiled 97:20 complete 136:7,15 completely 126:7 136:27 144:23 complicated 139:15 complied 94:17 complies 133:6 comply 131:28 132:25 compound 19:20,21,22,23,24 22:16,17 85:14(8) compounds 101:22 compressor 69:25 compressors 67:26 69:26 comprise 148:17 computer 89:18 conceivable 75:7 conceive 19:1 conceived 19:27 concept 30:11,24 concern 142:18 concerned 51:16,26 80:5 143:11(4) concerning 3:3 123:27 143:13 concerns 67:18 80:3 83:27 131:26 144:25 146:8 (6) conclude 30:19 concluded 129:13 conclusion 42:10,13 43:23,26 53:18 59:2 128:24 129:4 136:2 (9) conclusions 57:18 129:17 conditions 32:12 43:4 50:1 60:19 85:15 139:10 (6) conduct 34:5 35:15 confirm 50:2 93:27 confirmed 96:13 confirms 94:9,11 conflict 75:15 confused 143:3 confusion 88:10,12,14,24 91:3 143:7 (6) congener 21:4 25:20 31:11,13 (4) congeners 21:1 44:21 conglomeration 19:24 Congo 53:14 congress 137:1,6 conjunction 37:22 38:3 125:20,25 (4) connected 26:11 100:11 conservative 79:20 consider 66:26 134:20 consideration 73:5 considerations 57:6 considered 28:25 60:18 61:11,12(4) considering 111:4 122:10 126:24 consistent 81:19 141:5 consult 10:4,25 11:3 consultant 10:1,18 11:5 47:8 (4) consulting 10:23 consumed 74:19 consumer 77:21 132:23 contact 76:19,20,24 contain 44:21 69:8 71:5 118:14 140:12,22 144:14 (7) contained 27:20 30:22 36:2 43:11 69:5 140:13 (6) containers 30:22 101:25 containing 77:1 contaminant 3:4 contaminants 6:15 contaminated 74:2,18 77:20 contamination 29:8 76:3,4 78:11 122:16 142:24 (6) contemplated 66:10 68:3 content 44:24 continue 10:4,6 48:12,26 51:4 78:22 102:3 103:25 115:11 130:19 143:20 (11) continued 4:21 78:20 102:22 108:23,24 128:27 (6) continues 18:8 50:17 51:26 57:9 59:15 (5) continuing 84:9 continuity 110:12 contract 11:10 contracted 40:17 41:23 135:26 contractor 132:28 contractors 49:23 contradict 146:12 contraire 79:19 contrary 129:17 contrast 134:1 contributing Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067754 100:8 contribution 73:26 control 35:24,26 42:15,15 80:28 113:23 118:26 123:21,24 133:16 137:3 (11) controlled 100:18 103:17 140:6 controls 81:3 controversy 92:8,10 convenience 132:22 conversation 104:27 conversations 93:5 143:25 conveyed 49:28 convinced 94:12 cookbook 114:17,18 cooking 75:6 cool 32:1 72:17,18,23 (4) cooperating 94:25 copy 38:12,15,19 105:4 108:16 110:3 (6) corn 61:23 Cornell 95:2,8 corner 23:2 24:20 corners 20:26 24:17 corporate 7:10,13,22 8:16 16:26 17:3 109:6,11 119:4,10 120:5,6 (12) corporation 143:4 correct 2:25 9:9 14:25 17:14 21:3 22:7 26:22 28:6 33:25 35:1,23 36:17,23 38:26 40:10,22 42:8 43:6 46:14,21 54:11 59:4 68:13 69:3,22 70:5,6 76:23 77:4,6,27 78:21,25,27 80:11 84:25 87:9,18 91:6 94:2,15 95:20 98:20,20 99:11,28 100:13,14 101:13 102:12,14 106:9 108:3,7,12 110:20,27,28 111:17,18,27 112:26 113:19 114:26 115:17 120:3,11 121:25 122:1 127:19,22,24 128:11 129:3,11 130:4,8 132:11 133:2,6,7 134:14,18 137:8,9,21,25 139:1 140:26 142:11 144:13,21 148:17(93) correctly 125:9,24,24 correspondence 65:27 could 25:11,12 34:26 35:25 36:6,11,28 43:14 47:25 58:16,28 59:2,27 61:15 63:6,7 65:15 70:26 73:15 75:5,26,28 81:24,26 85:17,18 86:21 89:9 90:1,13 95:28 98:14 100:8,22,28 103:12,14 105:15 107:28 109:27 118:24 122:23,25 123:23,28 125:8 131:4 139:8 140:1,7 (50) couldn't 85:5 90:22 98:9 counsel 1:12,23 10:3 70:17 145:8 (5) counter 31:24 32:3 country 79:24 96:7 113:9 117:24 131:2 141:26 (6) county 148:2,15 couple 121:17 course 3:21 6:27 88:3 court 1:10,13,16, 18,20,22 2:13 8:13,17 22:24 23:2 44:4,7,26 55:4,25 63:8,16 65:21 66:14,16 67:14 69:10 70:10,16,18,21 92:15,20 105:26 116:10,12 118:28 119:2 131:6 136:11 141:14,16,18 145: 2.7.12.14.24.26 14 customers 33:16 6:2,5,7,15,18,20,2 36:7,28 45:6 2.26 147:2,546:2,4,8 49:6 148:1,6,15,25 (59) 51:18 56:8 57:1 61:27 63:3,21 courtroom 6:17 65:12 145:9 146:13 67:7,18,21,28 68:18,19,19,22 courtrooms 6:16 70:4 74:11 75:22,26 76:8,13 cousin 26:25 78:23 81:16,24 93:18 115:15,15,2 cover 127:16,18 3,28,28 116:3,17 117:13,16 118:4 crack 13:8 119:27 121:22,27 122:4 123:28 crash 119:5 124:2 125:10 126:4 136:26 created 29:1,2 137:14,16 144:14 (55) creating 92:8 cut 11:17 19:1 creation 64:15 23:22 125:27 cutting 19:1 crop 61:17,19,21 113:19 crops 27:19 61:23 62:25 102:11 (4) cross 146:23 err 148:25 czuleger 1:4 148:3 damage 60:15 danger 78:10 110:16 csr 1:5 148:25,26 dangerous 73:3 cultivate 30:5 dashing 10:8 cuming 132:5 curious 89:8 data 33:13 66:20 97:20 127:2 128:9 129:6 130:9 (7) currently 6:1,2 129:8 customer 56:17,27 62:27 63:3,10,22 90:10,16 91:5 111:15 112:9 119:19(12) date 66:6 127:5 dated 142:16 148:20 dates 127:9 dauber 1:2,11,22 70:16 145:7 148:5 (6) Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067755 9 daughter 9:25 david 1:5 148:14,25 dawn 86:20 day 16:15 31:24 147:8 days 18:10 20:5 27:11 29:12 47:6 (5) ddt 25:25 26:6,18,26 27:6,9,12,19,22 29:24 85:2,13,17,17,20 100:17 142:20,24,27 (19) deal 11:3 16:3 117:17 126:24 (4) dealing 46:20 107:9 dealt 67:22 deaths 41:13 deca 25:24 decachlorobiphe nyl 25:24 decades 132:17 146:26 december 6:28 86:7 90:27 99:20 107:5 (5) decide 106:13 decided 51:4 106:5,12,28 (4) decides 126:26 decision 116:1 decorated 50:22 defendants 148:9 defense 130:23,24 131:1,1 141:20,22,24,28 142:28 (9) definitely 52:7 61:18 63:27 127:14(4) definition 26:28 degradation 88:15 103:5 143:18 degrade 7:5 degrandchamp 44:28 degree 6:27 degrees 125:1 delegation 91:18 department 16:24,26,27 17:2,3 53:24,28 55:24 62:13 64:14 78:1,2,3,4,15,16 106:24,26 118:15 127:14,15 128:2,3 130:6 131:11,13,22 148:3 (28) departments 98:16 107:11 depending 85:18 121:15 depends 25:14 31:9,11 derivatives 55:14 describe 53:20 75:19 design 74:6 designated 71:6 designates 106:19 designation 69:6 designed 27:6,7,9,15,16 69:25 (6) destroy 124:24 destroyed 32:11 detail 104:19 detailed 114:18 detect 86:17 detecting 144:9 detector 98:6,7 determine 54:3 62:16 determines 25:17 devastating 140:19 develop 14:19 18:8 62:15 123:11 125:19 138:19,23 144:8(8) developed 18:6 33:19 34:8,10,24 37:21 38:1,3,18,22 40:2 117:23 125:20 138:14 (14) developing 141:27 development 17:5 109:6,11 119:5 120:7 143:12(6) develops 132:17 devolved 12:11 di 20:6 23:10 diamond 22:15 dibenzene 20:22 didn't 3:14 8:10 13:11 21:16 30:23 36:8,15 44:14 46:11,26 47:4,15,16 53:26 55:19 58:26 60:9 83:8 85:20,21 86:11,13 87:5 90:6 92:6 100:19,27 101:10,23,28 105:24 106:7 110:7 115:24 119:16 125:15 129:14 138:24,26 139:16 140:9,12 (42) die 97:14 died 4:11 58:22,26 dielectric 33:28 34:2,2,8,17,20 35:10,11,18,26 36:2(11) diet 129:12 dietary 129:14 difference 26:8,9,10 29:8,9 48:12 84:1 (7) differences 26:10 27:5 different 13:20,21 16:9 19:1821:1,20 23:27 24:1,3,4 25:11,13,16,17,27 27:26,28 28:3 36:16 42:5 43:25,27,28 44:9 55:13 63:13 78:3 88:18 99:4,4 110:4 114:7,7,13 127:10 134:10 135:18,19,19 141:7,9 (41) digression 124:15 125:4 dihydrogen 23:9,12 diphenyl 20:4,6,23 diphenyls 20:9 direct 2:15 46:28 73:17,19 115:27 116:2(6) directed 78:15 131:14 direction 66:28 72:21 directly 27:19 29:14 30:17 56:8 146:11 (5) director 8:19 45:16 78:15 dirty 41:22 disagree 145:19 disagrees 135:17 disastrous 15:22 34:11 disbursement Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067756 10 29:23 discarded 76:21 discharge 29:10 90:3 discharged 29:14 discharges 109:16 discharging 30:17 discontinuation 126:5 discontinue 113:7 discontinued 144:24 discontinuing 120:2 discovered 76:17 discovery 105:1 discuss 112:15,19 118:1 discussed 113:13 discussing 92:25 117:28 discussion 17:10 50:1061:5 discussions 47:28 disease 40:27 41:24 42:23 81:28 133:16(5) diseases 60:19 dish 31:23 32:2 58:1 disjointed 124:27 dispose 116:18,19 125:8 144:15(4) disposed 102:9 123:20 distinction 124:20 distress 143:1 distribute 56:11 distributor 56:6,10,11 distributor's 123:27 distributors 56:9 115:16,23 116:7 123:28 124:1 (6) division 8:16 12:10,11,13,14,14 14:4,4,25 16:4,5 17:4 68:4,7 71:25,26 91:22 (17) divisions 12:9 13:20,25 doctor 42:11 76:1 117:5 doctors 6:6 document 43:14 46:21 47:10,13 53:11,17,20 56:1 63:20 65:10 75:27 76:2 101:8,11,12 104:2 107:14 108:2 127:23,23 128:13,19 (22) documentation 70:2 documents 3:23,27 41:10 46:11,14,16 47:7,11,28 64:20 75:21 81:22 120:26 123:17 126:28 132:4 (16) does 6:10 11:9,9 17:17 21:9 24:23 31:21 32:7 35:15 40:11 44:21 48:19,26 49:13 56:1 69:8 75:1,17 90:8,19 103:25 104:26 119:7,18 134:8,12 135:21 143:4 146:1,2 (30) doesn't 13:7 105:2 131:17 dogs 99:6,7 doing 7:2,3,8,13 10:13,15 51:17 73:15 79:11 85:1,19 88:2,4,16 89:18 95:28 98:19,23 99:2,18 106:8,10 107:2 116:25 122:23 132:22 135:9 141:22 142:3,4 145:28 (31) done 9:28 53:23 58:19 82:15,22,28 83:5 103:17 106:16 120:9 141:15 (11) door 70:10 doses 133:21 134:25 dow 12:20,21 down 15:8 18:2,2,13 26:3 51:8 66:12 74:16 97:25 107:25 109:22 113:9 136:19(13) dozen 52:21 dr 1:14,28 2:17 4:16,18 12:3 16:2 22:25 26:23 33:5,6 34:15 38:5 40:12,19,21 43:5,9,11,17 44:10,15,28 45:5,5,12,16,16 46:1048:1,3 49:10,22 50:26 51:3 53:7 57:11 58:7,16,21,21 59:18 65:5,23,28 66:18 67:5 69:14,28 70:22 91:28 92:23,27 93:6,7,24,25 94:8,9,11 99:10,17 100:11,14,20 101:3,5,10 102:27 103:1,16 104:4,5,1 2,25,26,28 106:23, 24,25,26,27 108:17 111:21 116:5 118:14 134:1,16,19,20 135:15,23 136:2 140:26 141:3 (95) draft 33:11,12 108:8,19,20 (5) drafts 108:4,22 draw 24:11 25:26 drawing 22:19 28:8 105:14 drawn 24:19,19 42:10,13 (4) drew 105:14 drinker 40:12,21 42:12 43:5,17 44:10,10,15 45:5,17 49:16 57:20 59:22 (13) drinker's 43:11 drop 45:15 60:6 drug 130:6 due 75:23 duplicate 106:6 dupont 12:20,21 durability 27:8 during 3:21 46:5 49:5 59:16 79:1 85:4 103:19 (7) dusted 102:11 each 13:25 14:19 19:2 24:17,20,21 25:16 44:21 78:2 111:15,15 114:23,24 128:14,15 (15) earlier 25:5 44:18 46:13 56:7 64:14 71:6 86:19 101:3 110:1 114:3 126:28 133:24 136:18 (13) earliest 49:12 early 18:10 20:5 42:24 43:10 50:13 59:22 60:22 62:14 73:10 77:13 90:26 107:15 110:1 123:17(14) easel 22:22 easily 101:23 122:25 easy 22:26 24:5 eat 30:1,5 78:8 Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067757 11 eating 78:6,16 ecological 129:7 economic 144:1 edf 143:9 edge 113:19 editorial 99:24 education 5:16 effect 27:24 60:1,3 79:27 97:13 100:9,19 116:27 (8) effects 3:1 40:15,16 42:22 84:13,14 87:6 99:26,28 100:1 111:8 133:18 (12) 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109:26 110:9 111:12 114:18 124:25 130:15 132:24 134:22 140:3 (27) eventually 61:22 115:11 125:7 ever 47:17 49:12 56:20 58:14 60:28 61:6 62:15,16,24,26 63:25 64:21,25,27 65:2 66:3 68:3 74:2,19,20 77:19,21 82:27 120:18 121:2 (25) every 44:24 51:8 85:16 94:28 (4) everybody 107:1,2,2,11 108:25 116:23 132:22 139:8 (8) everyone 114:8 116:14 everything 3:20 47:16 74:20 98:10 119:13 122:23 126:21 (7) evidence 69:28 141:8 evolved 20:7 Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067758 12 exact 49:24 exist 12:22 80:21 exactly 11:24 12:7 32:16 72:1 73:25 74:28 111:14 112:27 116:4 118:22 119:24 133:5 (12) examination 2:15 example 17:3 31:10 35:1 60:10 74:28 100:4 118:21 131:12 (8) except 22:14 excess 79:4,4 82:26 excited 87:25 existed 132:16 exists 11:1 expand 98:28 expect 39:17 expected 61:22 expedite 119:23 experience 44:14 76:11 81:27 experiences 112:16 experiment 62:18,25 excluded 46:2 exclusive 35:27 exclusively 39:2 experimented 62:9 experiments 57:28 109:27 excuse 6:25 16:10 59:23 executives 16:21 exhibit 1:19 23:4,6 44:26 53:12 54:17 55:4,23 63:8,17 65:18,22 66:14 67:6,14 69:10 75:28 77:24 92:15,16 94:1,23 101:2 104:11 107:13 109:19 116:10,11 117:6,26 118:23,28 120:3 123:25 127:17 129:25 136:13 141:18,19 (39) expertise 7:20 8:7 14:20 118:21 (4) expired 37:6 explain 3:2 15:26 34:1 44:3,8 51:1 61:19 67:12 70:26 103:10 104:3 141:21 142:21 (13) explained 67:20 explicit 74:15 explosion 129:1 explosions 34:12 39:24 exhibits 69:13 exposed 45:20 82:3 113:16 exposure 42:15 51:23 58:5 82:26 (4) exposures 45:23 expressed 142:18 extended 123:23 extender 61:11 62:20,28 63:4,23,24,26 (7) extenders 61:13 extent 29:5 36:9 80:1,14 104:18 139:27,28 (7) external 124:28 externally 106:8 111:5 extra 28:10 145:28 extraneous 58:27 facilities 95:4 facility 29:11 119:16,18 123:12 (4) fact 8:2 31:28 49:10 51:12,22 53:15 61:27 64:4 65:28 74:6 89:11 93:27 100:17 106:14 109:11 111:28 113:21 119:18 120:9 121:10 124:25,27 125:7 139:21,24 140:25 (26) factory 51:23 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fingerprint 89:20 finish 56:24 Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067759 13 102:3 135:12,12 (4) finished 6:27 fire 15:22 27:7 36:3,4,5 37:10,15 124:22,28 129:1 140:14,18 (12) fires 34:11,16 39:24 firm 11:20,21,23,27 47:10(5) first 2:10 4:4 16:1624:13 33:19 44:10,13 45:19 61:6 62:18,21 84:22 86:16 90:10 91:15,16,18 92:6 97:26 99:18,21 100:10 103:16 108:11 111:19 118:3 121:25 126:25 127:3,7 133:22 135:23 142:1,15 144:27 (35) fish 96:9 98:15 118:19 fisheries 95:26 130:10 fit 13:28 48:20 fits 132:20 five 7:1 105:19,20 136:18 (4) flag 91:11 flame 37:23 38:10,10 72:10 73:1 (5) flammable 72:28 73:2,16 flew 91:13 flinn 40:19 45:5 flip 52:25 floor 53:19 54:21,27 55:9 56:21 (5) fluctuate 11:9 fluid 14:4,5,5,14 15:1820:17 34:2,13 35:26 36:5 37:18 59:20 68:19,22 69:24,27 72:10,11,13 74:10 75:4(21) fluids 14:8,11,25 15:17,20,23 16:4,18,27 20:18 32:27,28,28 33:1,28 34:8,17,18,20 35:18 36:2,14,20 37:17 38:3 67:23,23,24,24 68:5,9,10,24,25 69:5,8 71:1 72:15 74:22 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97:22 105:12,15,18,19 136:18 141:15 (10) fr 69:6 71:6,7 74:24 75:4 77:2 121:28 126:5 (8) frame 33:18 40:14 54:20,23 79:2 80:20 82:21 91:4 107:10 (9) francisco 99:14,21,25 100:21 (4) frank 34:23 frankly 80:18 frieling 145:10 1 46:6,8,17,19,21,24 ,28 147:6 (9) friend 134:21 fritolay 77:18,20 front 111:12 fry 77:1 frying 73:4,15 77:3 fuel 23:27 24:6 124:28 function 14:5 64:16 functional 14:5,8,11,14,25 16:4,18,27 68:9,10,19,22 (12) fund 50:17 57:9 106:5 141:20,22,24 142:1,28 (8) funding 106:4 funds 59:5 105:28 further 18:4,9,9 66:12(4) future 79:16 128:28 fwpca 118:25 g 130:9 gap 48:12 gas 85:8,9,26 gases 103:18 gave 137:4 gc 98:8 103:1 ge 35:24,27 Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067760 14 36:6,8,9 37:1,4,5 39:23 46:8 48:5,17,20 56:28 79:6 90:10,11,16 91:7 112:7,8,9,14, 18,21,25 113:15 114:28 115:1,8 (30) ge's 35:26 36:1 113:5 114:25 119:11,11 121:7 122:25,27 123:23 124:8,8,18,25,28 125:1 127:3 137:16 146:13 (60) gets 11:2 28:23 30:8 32:1 118:19 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ingestion 45:21 inhalation 58:2 initial 105:1 initially 88:9 initials 55:2 injury 60:2 Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067763 17 input 58:15 128:4 inquire 2:13 inquired 65:27 118:6 inquiries 8:27 65:13 insecticide 62:19 63:23 insects 26:19 27:6,22 61:25 (4) inside 7:24 60:13 insights 10:5,5 insistent 58:18 insoluble 31:6 instance 13:13 72:28 140:16 instances 76:14 institute 57:13 135:27 137:23,28 139:4(5) institutes 98:24 106:4 instruction 145:19 instructions 145:13,16 146:1,2 (4) instrument 85:8,10,24 98:13,13 (5) instruments 85:26 insurance 51:6 insured 51:7 67:16 125:3 intake 129:14 integrated 121:9 intended 64:25 121:9 intention 66:3,7 intentionally 29:24 interact 5:8 7:23 interdepartmenta 1 126:14,16 127:13,18 128:25 (5) into 3:15 6:17 7:2,13,28 10:5 12:11 13:7,28 15:6,17 18:7,7 19:2 20:7 24:6 25:18 27:9,17 29: 4,13,14,15,27,27 30:6,8,9,17,23,25 45:25,26 47:18 50:22 62:15 64:21 75:6 84:17 88:25 89:6 95:21 112:13 121:9 122:25 128:4,17 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23:26 33:13 40:2 72:27 74:7 121:10 (8) j 1:4 148:3 ianuary 136:14 137:22 japan 141:11 jay 118:2 jensen 84:23,28 86:8 87:3,17 88:18 89:24 90:22,25 91:2 92:1,5 93:2,10,24,25 94:9,13 97:26 98:4 120:19 (21) iensen's 91:26 94:11 job 8:7 51:11 joe 142:19 johnson 53:5,7,13,15,18 54:1,4,9,21,27 56:5,15,16,20 (14) join 6:11 joined 3:11,17 4:20 6:28 (4) jotting 107:25 journal 6:7,8 62:22 judge 1:4 148:3 july 95:25 96:3 137:13,16 (4) jumped 93:7,10 june 95:22 jurors 1:12,23 70:17 145:8 (4) jury 1:21 2:21 3:26 5:4,17 10:7 15:5 18:16 20:3,28 21:7 23:8 25:20,25 33:4,11 40:11 41:10 42:20 44:28 50:7,21 51:1 58:7 61:19 65:5 67:5,12 70:26 76:26 77:17,25 81:5 101:2,7,13 102:14 104:2,11 107:13 109:19 111:1 Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067764 18 112:18 120:16 121:13 126:16 130:26 133:12 136:16 137:26 140:25 141:21 145:13(53) jury's 1:9 145:6 just 8:2 9:12 10:25 15:7,8 17:13 18:13 21:5,13 23:8,19,28 24:8,14 25:9 29:13 32:20 38:7 42:19 47:19,25 50:13 54:17 57:28 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138:21,25,28 (18) law 11:20 47:10 80:27 81:3 (4) lawyers 47:17 layer 13:5,10 layers 13:5 lead 19:12 43:14 45:21 66:27 (4) leader 7:7 leak 74:2,3 75:6,23 76:15 77:5 (6) leaks 74:4,17 76:17 learn 4:2 7:17 learned 29:3 45:4,17,19 49:16 59:22 98:11 (7) least 43:11 51:12 86:3 105:5 (4) led 30:19 left 5:14 28:20 55:21 101:17 141:4(5) legacy 9:1 legally 139:22 keeping 51:28 80:20 136:12 keeps 18:13 knew 3:25 4:19,27,28 5:8 10:443:1048:10 113:14 125:21,23 kytomaa 34:15 140:26 lab 79:14 98:21 late 3:11 29:3 39:12 73:10 77:7 83:4 97:25 (7) legislation 137:4 legislature 81:2 Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067765 19 less 7:20 52:21 64:6 97:25 130:7 (5) lessen 143:17 lesson 19:6 let 5:17,18 23:1 45:5 46:12 53:4 58:14 60:6,8 88:23 109:12 116:8 129:20 135:12 146:22 (15) let's 5:16 9:14 10:16 17:9 19:5,14 32:19 33:3 35:21 38:11 39:22 55:20 56:24 57:8 60:4,5 61:4 64:24 66:11 70:7,24 77:12,15,23 78:17 79:9,10 80:20 82:12 83:26,27 90:21 101:16 103:7 108:15,18 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majority 140:12 make 13:11 22:26 23:18 24:7 25:5 28:14,16,17,18,19 34:20,25 35:2 36:27 38:16 40:23 44:14 51:14 64:8 65:7 71:19,21 74:12 90:12,21 100:27 101:23,28 105:2 107:1,10 111:15 115:11 119:16 123:12,14 124:15 125:23 126:23 127:3 128:7 130:28 139:19 140:9 142:5 (45) makes 20:16 24:1,3 26:18 66:24 69:7 142:19 (?) making 3:18 7:12 9:8 11:15 13:12 29:1 41:15 51:17 78:4 89:21 109:10 113:10 114:28 115:4,9,12 117:17 119:27(18) man 130:10 managed 13:20 management 13:21,22,23,26 14:17 109:7 119:4,10 120:5 (9) manager 111:19,22 manner 144:15 manufacture 15:1 35:24,25 36:6,11 53:8 112:13 138:20 139:18 (9) manufactured 8:23,24 9:2 13:17 14:2 42:16 49:19 55:15 91:23 (9) manufacturer 118:5 125:26 142:27 manufacturers 15:14 37:4 93:21 115:3 (4) manufactures 13:9,10 54:27 manufacturing 28:15 29:11 40:28 41:1 85:25 91:24 137:10 143:5 (8) many 6:11 9:24 20:11,11 25:14 31:7,9 52:20 72:27 76:14 135:2 143:25 (12) march 1:3 109:22 117:5 148:19,20 (5) marine 90:1 mark 1:16 marked 1:18,19 23:4,6 65:21,22 (6) marker 22:28 market 15:18 74:25 101:24 126:8,10 140:23 (6) markowitz 43:9 53:7 58:7,21 67:5 101:3,10 (7) married 9:19 marston 142:16,17 mass 7:14,17 85:27 86:1 98:7 103:1 (6) master's 5:26 match 85:21 124:21 matched 92:5 material 20:1 21:28 43:27,28 44:18 72:18 73:2,16 83:13 116:18 138:2 147:4(12) 25:24 27:23 materials 7:4 13:12 17:26 30:2 34:26 39:8,9 41:21 50:1 54:21 55:3 72:28 105:22 109:13,14,17 110:5 113:7 116:8 123:24 124:10 125:8,16 132:15,27 146:9,11 (27) matter 53:25 58:19 121:1 148:18 (4) may 1:26 2:13 7:14 13:8 14:2 21:12 45:22 70:20 75:15 93:10 104:26 115:8 119:20,25,26 120:12 127:21 129:2,24 (19) maybe 43:14 48:22 88:4 97:22 100:23 103:4 106:13 128:18 135:25 (9) me 6:18,25 7:9 11:3,28 13:18 16:10 18:17 22:20 23:1 46:12 53:4 55:21 58:14 59:23 60:6,8 63:6 88:23 129:20 131:17 135:12 136:12 146:8,22 148:19 (26) mean 8:14 18:7 21:9,9,22,23 24:26 31:21 32:7 44:3 66:6 70:11 75:1 80:2 104:20 114:16 119:7 140:1 (18) means 6:16 18:16 20:621:5,14 23:10,10 31:22 36:3,4 61:19 70:27 106:21 (13) meantime 143:22 measure 34:3 35:11 114:20 measuring 7:4 10:13 mechanism 103:15 medical 6:6 17:2,3 45:16 78:15 106:24 (6) medicinal 75:18,20 medicine 23:22 medium 72:16 meet 108:23 meeting 86:4 111:10 112:8,17,24 113:1,3,5 (8) meetings 107:15 meets 112:7 member 21:5 memberships 5:20,28 memo 45:14 48:24 54:12 55:20 67:23 76:17 77:26 78:5 93:9 103:9 110:4(11) meaning 20:7 memos 106:26 Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067767 21 mention 37:21 105:24 mentioned 8:10 12:8 25:5 27:20 28:5 56:7 67:2,25 71:6 74:24 76:16 85:26 95:9 96:25 114:3 115:21 (16) merging 12:23 message 141:5 messages 110:14 met 48:1 110:26 134:19 135:23,24 140:27 (6) metal 15:21 37:22 98:9 101:25 (4) metallurgical 37:27 metcalf 104:3,3,4,5 (4) metcalfs 104:12 method 35:8 114:16 methodology 117:25 methods 89:17 113:22 114:8,10,15 118:8,20 132:12,17 144:9 (10) mibp 110:6 123:12 mice 57:22 58:25 141:11 microbes 30:9 mid'60s 77:13 midl950s 83:18 middle 24:25 58:10 might 6:15 12:26 60:15,15 62:6 83:16,17 88:15 97:13 113:6 118:13,14 124:15 (13) miles 79:14 military 41:16 miller's 11:21 million 17:25,28 18:12 19:2,4 55:7 86:21,26 87:1,2 134:26(11) mind 12:22 19:6 24:14 70:13 145:3 (5) mine 27:11 minimal 74:17 minimize 84:14 111:7 minute 71:4 minutes 70:14 109:3 111:9 112:24 113:1 141:15 147:3 (7) mipb 109:22 119:15 123:2,5 (4) mislabeled 44:19 missile 133:1 missing 58:11,12,13 131:7 (4) misstated 142:26 mistake 43:13 mixture 43:16,18,21 44:19 (4) mixtures 41:20 42:1 44:9 moderate 22:2 moderately 138:2 molecule 19:16,18,19 23:28 25:7(5) molecules 19:23,24 89:23 molten 15:21 37:22 moment 19:14 money 107:27 monsanto 1:2,11,22 3:2,6,12, 14,17,21,23 4:2 5:13 6:24,26 7:11 8:4,5,8,11,15,16,2 3 9:6,8 10:3,3,12,26 11:1,4,16 12:3,5,7, 8,12,12,18 13:4,9,16,20 14:28 15:1,13 16:16 21:13 24:23 28:28 30:19 33:15 34:20 35:2,25 36:6,11,15,23,27 39:10,27 40:6,17,28 41:5 42:6 43:10 44:14,16 45:4,14 46:1,21 47:6 48:3,5,7,20,23,26 49:5 50:2,17,22,26 51:5,16,26 52:2,23 54:3,21 55:15 56:8,10 57:9 58:9,10,14,15 59:5,15 60:24 61:27 63:2 65:11,13 66:2,7,24 67:6,8,17 69:7,15,17 70:1,3,16 71:18 74:5,6,21,26 76:7 78:20 79:1 81:10,15 82:2,7 83:8,22,23,24 84:5,15 87:26,27 88:6,10,13 89:8,20 90:8,20,24 91:12,15 92:21,27 93:13,23,26,28 94:15,16,22 96:11,20 98:1,11,28 99:15 100:22 101:4 102:4,8,10,26 103:16,25 104:6,8, 15,16,21,27 105:27 106:2,5,12,19,28 107:6 108:1 110:25 111:6,24 112:2,7,14 113:6,14,21 114:3 115:11,16,24,26 116:13,21,26 117:18,23,28 118:10 119:13,18 120:1,16,18 121:5,6,22 122:14,23,26,27 123:11,18,22 124:10 125:6,7,10, 15,19,23 126:4,19 127:23 128:4,6,8 129:9,16 130:15,19 131:24 132:25,27 133:6,24 134:11 135:7,13,21,26 13 6:7,14,16,19,22,25 137:7,10 138:5,9 139:1 141:4 142:11,19,26 144:3,5,27 145:7 146:9 148:8 (270) monsanto's 2:27 21:1030:16 38:2 51:7 53:28 54:2 59:9 63:21 69:4 70:28 81:23,24 90:5,16 112:15 113:17,18 123:21 132:12 143:10,14,16(23) month 11:8,10,11 32:3 90:19,19(6) monthly 51:6 months 97:17,20 128:21 129:23 137:6 138:8 (6) montrose 143:4 more 7:15 16:11 19:1923:1628:18 31:15,16,1734:16 64:7 75:13 80:2,16,17 93:12 98:24 114:18 123:24 124:6 128:13 134:28 141:14(22) morning 1:25,27 2:17,18 19:5 70:12(6) mosquitoes 26:20,21 most 5:15 12:9 15:13 29:26 30:27 31:2,15 37:17 48:18 51:13 56:9 61:13 62:4 115:6,12 120:2 141:25 143:9,16 (19) mostly 33:17 105:17 mountain 85:11 mouse Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067768 22 58:11,12,13,22,24 (5) move 15:10 22:22 32:19 64:24 70:7 88:22 108:18 117:4 121:21 133:9 142:3,5 (12) moved 7:10,13,21 38:17 64:16 112:2 (6) movement 79:22 80:19 87:26 102:6 142:8(5) moving 50:11 106:28 119:11 137:22 (4) ms 11:23 136:12 much 5:7 11:7 14:28 17:18,20 21:1624:8 31:5 32:13 33:18 35:12 51:23 64:7 66:13 85:18 89:15 92:1 94:14 97:12 103:6 105:11 113:16 138:27 141:14 142:1 (25) municipal 29:19 must 70:11 my 5:23 6:21,27,27,28 7:22 8:7,7,21 10:23 11:11 12:1 13:15 18:25 26:27 40:20 41:1746:15,27 47:1948:14,15 49:1 53:10 79:12,15,15 86:28 87:1 103:16 136:12(31) name 1:2 2:10 4:5 20:7 21:10,11,13,24 26:6 28:3 36:1,16,18,21 38:2 40:4 69:4 70:28 113:25 120:6 143:3 (21) named 34:23 36:5 52:24 91:20 (4) names 8:3 27:26 28:1,3 37:5 40:11 (6) naphthalene 42:3 naphthalenes 42:2,27 national 38:16 81:5 113:23 130:2 137:23,28 139:3 (?) nationwide 132:16 natural 58:26 naturally 30:7 nature 88:21 navy 49:22 nci 82:1,28 83:1 137:23 138:26 139:2,3 141:9(8) ncr 38:11,13,14,22 93:13,15,20 103:9 109:21,22,25 110:1,2,10 119:5,13,23 123:2 (18) near 116:19 128:28 nebraska 135:27 necessarily 115:24 necessary 128:28 131:1 145:20 need 65:18 72:25 73:18 83:16 107:1 113:10,28 115:10,28 131:15 (10) needed 71:17 72:14 98:12,14 104:1 111:6 119:17 125:23 136:23 138:19 (10) needs 112:16 neglect 60:14 neighborhoods 27:12,13 never 47:15 62:7 64:23 66:9 68:5 70:2 140:22 (7) new 11:1 12:12 41:6 65:18 85:25 86:6 95:8,10 117:9 137:4 (10) newspaper 142:18,26 next 1:16,26 69:12 91:11,11 102:2 143:8 (7) nhl 56:26,27 no 8:23 9:2 12:6,21 14:26 16:11,12 18:6 20:1 24:7 30:21 31:5 35:27 36:4,4,4,5 37:1 39:13,17 41:26 43:13 46:3,7,9,9 47:15 50:13 52:3,3,18 54:8 55:8,19 56:23,25 57:2,6 58:4,18 59:10,14 60:25 61:3,8 62:17,26 63:17 64:10,23,26 65:1,4 66:3,9 68:8 70:2 73:19 74:3 75:3 77:14 78:7 79:3,5,8,19 80:22,24,27,27 81:2,9 82:5,11,17,24,27 83:7 84:19,21 85:22 86:16 87:5,6,14,16,22,23 89:14,20,22,22 90:18,24 96:16,19,23 97:2,2 100:16 107:24 108:4 109:1 110:24 112:20,20 115:1 117:1,1,3,3 120:21,28 121:2,2,9 122:3,8,13 123:1,1 125:17 126:3,13,27 128:14,22 129:6,19 131:19 134:14 135:4,6,9,9,9 138:7 139:15 141:7,10,10,12,12 146:6 148:7,26 (146) nobody 35:19 78:16 nonchlorinated 110:7 noncontained 120:24 noncrop 61:17,18,20,26,28 62:8 (6) nonflammability 33:1 37:24 nonflammable 15:19 32:25 34:13 124:18(4) nonhodgkin 135:5 nonhodgkin's 52:1,4,28 59:8 60:23 110:23 (6) nonpcb 69:1 nontoxic 44:17 noon 145:2 147:7 normal 32:12 normally 57:26 northeast 140:16 northern 5:22 note 76:27 107:24 124:6 noted 40:16 53:12 56:27 65:7 (4) notes 107:14 nothing 52:11 68:1 75:19 110:24 124:21 126:11 (6) notice 80:12 145:15 noticeable 53:1 noticed 90:11 147:2 none 57:2 59:14 60:28 74:20 83:22 96:16,19 110:5 (8) noticing 82:2,7 notified 110:1 136:26 137:13 Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067769 23 notifies 121:22 notify 121:27 131:15 noting 56:19 109:3 november 84:22 94:12 107:5,5 109:3 110:13,25 137:1 (8) now 2:26 3:14 6:18 9:8,24 10:22 12:2 14:19,24 15:26 16:15 17:27 18:1,15 20:20,28 21:7 23:15 24:5 25:20 28:14,28 29:4 30:12 31:7 32:20 33:15 34:20 36:14,27 39:10 41:13,25 43:9 44:21,28 46:5,21 47:23 49:21 51:14,28 53:15 54:10 57:17 58:7,21 59:22 60:20 61:4 62:9,27 64:8 67:5 69:17 70:3 71:13 72:25 73:10 75:21 76:14 78:1 81:10,12 83:1 84:15 86:8,17 87:3 91:7 93:3 94:1,8,11 96:12 98:17,17,28 99:13,27 101:2 102:2 104:2 106:5 107:13 108:9,15,27 112:6,8 113:18 116:14,26 117:12 124:3 128:4,12 129:20 134:12,22 137:10 138:5 140:21 145:2 146:13 (105) ntp 81:5 number 1:1 18:18,22 22:5 34:11 35:9,13 46:14 52:15,18 55:4,16 57:21 65:1967:17 71:7 82:20 85:1 94:20 103:20 104:7,19 105:24 138:25 (24) numbers 21:9,20,27 48:15 71:9 136:13 (6) numerous 94:16 26:14 28:10 61:6 75:22 90:27 103:18 (8) office 11:25,27,28 12:1 51:24 140:14 (6) officers 131:15 official 148:14,25 offtheshelf 13:11 often 6:16 21:16 29:13 oOo 1:7 obtained 39:23 obvious 84:20 obviously 13:24 21:15 27:22 28:23 32:27 40:5 48:17 52:10 65:26 87:27 96:10 102:18 108:13 109:8 113:25 (15) oh 3:5 14:26 17:7 51:16 52:7 81:17 84:11 85:17 86:25 88:3,26 91:10 93:11 108:4 112:20 125:12,14 126:27 127:14 128:22 144:7 (21) oil 37:18 72:16 73:4,16,16,17 75:6,6 76:18 91:21 (10) occasionally 10:6 oils 37:20 occur 10:6 119:21 occurred 51:9 occurrence 130:6 occurs 30:7 old 4:13,24 8:5,6,12,13 27:11 79:17 123:19 (9) older 29:12 once 86:2 98:11 113:6 136:25 (4) ocean 29:15 October 106:18 108:6 137:19 odor 21:16 75:14, 16,17,18,20,22 (7) odorless 75:10 off 8:5 10:10 one 5:15 9:3,4 11:1 12:9 13:3,21 14:2,3,9 16:18 17:3 18:17,18,19,26 19:2,9,11 22:9 23:15,19,28,28 24:20,20 25:9,12,16 30:27 31:2 34:4,7 35:21 36:25 40:27 43:13,21 44:4,24 48:1749:11 52:19,26,28 55:16 58:8 60:11 62:1,4,27 63:3,14,22 65:16 66:21,21 67:13,17 69:13 76:27 77:5,19 83:14 84:19 86:24 87:27 92:18 93:17 94:27 95:6 96:6 99:16 100:3 103:11,21,24 105:3,7,12,16 106:10,15 107:14,26 108:2,8,10 110:4 111:11,19 112:12 114:6,11,12,12 116:16,16 118:4 121:25 123:17 124:12 128:8,26 131:12 132:19 133:4 135:27 140:7,9 141:9,24,25 143:27 144:27 146:6(116) ones 12:22,22 22:6 32:10,13 62:18,21 69:5 127:28 140:20 145:13,15,17(13) onetenth 48:7 ongoing 65:26 only 2:21 5:12 14:24 22:15 41:28 42:13 47:13 54:10 63:22 69:5 117:12 128:8,18 136:20 140:10,13,13 (17) onto 145:22 open 1:20 72:10 73:1 120:14,17,18,27 121:7 127:2 136:20(10) operate 143:4 operating 50:1 74:12 operation 91:16 92:28 opinion 136:5 opposite 109:1 option 109:23 options 107:25,26 109:21 oral 45:21 order 1:16 74:12 125:15 131:15 132:10(5) ordered 96:20 126:2 orders 135:2 organic 22:9,16 organization 6:4 13:25 57:14 62:9 106:10,11 132:13,16 142:6 (9) organizations 13:26,27 organochlorine 22:8,18 organochlorines 26:28 osha 80:23 other 3:18 7:25 8:8,28 13:13 15:14 26:12 32:2,24,27,28 34:4 Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067770 35:25 36:7,10,28 37:3,10 40:17 41:15 42:6 43:21 49:22 51:20 53:25 55:27 56:12,18,28 58:25 62:25 66:24 69:8 71:15,16 72:21 73:26 74:21 75:10 84:19 85:2,21 87:28 88:2,2,20 89:21 93:2,3,17,20 96:25,27 97:2,18,19 99:22 101:12,14 102:24 104:7,22 114:11,23 115:10,14,15,23 120:24 128:6 130:10 133:4,17 136:9 144:22 146:1,15,18 (78) other's 114:24 others 5:7 6:18 7:26 12:21 31:16 38:28 40:12 76:22 89:8 119:27 136:22(11) otherwise 121:11 123:20 ought 45:17 our 6:18 7:10,13,21 10:16 17:1025:1 30:4,23 45:18,18 51:18 76:11 78:15,17 86:18 88:4,22 91:11,11 92:28 102:6 105:14 107:25 109:18,27 110:6 111:15,22 112:5,9,18 115:27,28 116:17,22,22,23 117:15 118:4,7,21 119:26 123:17 131:26 136:26 145:2(47) outbreak 40:27 56:26 60:23 outbreaks 59:8 outcomes 113:4 outline 111:9 output 85:11 outside 1:9 7:24 8:28 82:18,25 88:6 144:6 145:6 (8) over 22:26,27 32:24 46:19 48:13 91:13,18 104:7 111:23 138:26 (10) overall 13:23 14:28 15:1,4 (4) own 13:25,26 14:15,17,20,22 16:5 36:14,22 37:4 58:20 71:28 96:23 98:19 125:19 128:15 143:28 (17) owner's 40:4 ownership 8:3 oxide 23:9,10,12 oxygen 19:11 23:10,16,19(4) packaging 65:3,8 66:23 page 26:1 69:12 94:24 107:1,11 108:11 111:12 114:9 129:25 132:7(10) pages 68:11,12,12,14,14 130:7,11 148:16 (8) paid 11:5,7,8,13 (4) paints 90:1 pan 73:4 77:3 pans 77:1 papageorge 4:4,6 111:21,21 (4) paper 38:12,15,19 43:7,24,26 44:13 103:9,13,17,22 105:4 109:28 110:3 133:20 (15) papers 43:12 46:28 paperwork 90:23 pappas 65:20,22,24,27 (4) paragraph 45:15 49:14 76:25 101:7 132:2 142:15 143:8 (7) paragraphs 45:19 pardon 4:14 27:27 35:6 115:19 125:3 (5) part 7:11 10:23 19:3 57:13 73:20 74:25 84:12 87:1,2 92:4 99:27 102:7 114:25 119:22 122:20 127:12(16) partially 104:20 particular 14:20 21:21 24:2 39:6 52:13,14 53:27 67:22,28 142:5 (10) parts 8:8 17:25,25,28,28 18:1,2,3,12,13,15 86:21,23,25,26 128:14 134:26 (17) pass 145:1 passed 4:15,22 5:2,9 41:24 80:7 81:4 137:6 138:12,13 (10) passes 137:1 passing 118:21 past 146:10 patent 34:17,21 35:27 38:23 39:23 (5) patents 36:10 37:5 path 88:7 107:3,12 114:3 127:4(5) pattern 39:16 100:27 101:23 paul 5:5,5,8 145:10,11,25,27 (7) pay 11:17 71:26 paying 58:19 pcb 8:6 10:5 21:25 39:23 40:18 44:1,11,11 50:17 52:15 53:3 54:24 57:9 59:19 63:1 66:21 67:7 70:4 73:8 75:4 78:15 81:10,12,12 82:26 89:20,22 91:27 92:1 103:20 104:8 105:14 106:19,20,22 111:24 120:2 121:13,22,24 122:15,27 126:9,24 133:18 136:8,15 143:20 (48) pcbs 2:27 3:1,3,18 5:13 7:3,4,5,12,20,24 8:25 9:3,4,5,8,12 10:14 11:2 13:13,28 14:1,11,24 15:2,13,19 19:28 20:2,16 21:11,16 25:5,13,18 26:25 27:7,15,20,23,25 28:24 29:2 30:19,20,26,27 32:2,2,15,22,24 33:1,15,26 34:4 35:25,25 36:2,12 37:21,24 38:6 39:7,10 40:2,8 41:8,25,27,28 42:1,7,13,24,25 43:1,2,4,11,19 44:19 46:1 49:18 50:3 52:6 54:3 55:18 57:4,4,23,25 58:3,4 59:2,24 60:12 61:6,14 62:6,28 63:22,25 64:21,25 65:2,7 66:1,8 67:19,20 69:5,9 70:1 71:5,19 75:2,10,13,26 77:9 78:4,20,26 79:2 81:3,25 82:3,8,16,18 83:6,8,22,23 84:12,16,21 86:3,15,17 87:10 88:1,10,11,13,14 Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067771 25 89:2,12,25 90:3,15,17 93:4,27 94:13 95:7 96:9,10,13,14,17 97:26 98:25 99:22 100:8,11,19,22 101:6,28 102:27 103:12,15,19 105:17 110:3,15,19,22 112:11,13 114:18 115:1,4,16,21 116:27 117:24 118:8,14,16 119:9,11,27 120:17,22 122:8,18 124:14,1 7,20,21,22,24,26 125:2 126:22,26 129:14 130:7,9,16,19 131:26 133:22 137:10 138:6,14,20,21 13 9:14,17,18,19,21,2 2,24 140:1,10,13,1 9,22,28 141:6 143:15 144:9,15,17,20 (240) pet 21:26 28:7,8,24 43:10 66:21 (6) pets 21:12 28:5,14 29:1 43:1944:20 61:13 64:4 (8) peak 85:13,14,17 peaks 85:20,22 86:3,11 88:3,4 92:2 98:5 (8) people 3:26 4:1 7:8,24 22:12 30:14 40:5 45:5 52:18 68:21 80:2,6 82:2 87:25,28 90:24 91:16,18 94:17 99:6,7 102:24 103:13 111:16 113:26 114:1,14 118:7,16 122:9 135:24 139:19 140:19(33) per 17:25,25,28,28 18:2,3,12,13,15 19:3 86:21,23,25,26 87:1,2 134:26(17) percent 15:3,6,8,17,24,25 16:1 18:11 21:27 28:24 33:17 43:11 73:8 121:16,17,19 140:10(17) percentage 33:21 73:6,24 121:13 (4) peregrine 100:4 period 88:24 89:19 permission 66:3 peroxide 23:20,21,25,26 (4) person 5:12 11:1 16:28 89:21 114:11,11 (6) persons 10:3 perspective 2:27 pesticide 26:6 61:7,10,11,13 62:19 63:4,25 64:9,18,22 88:2,16,16 91:23,23,27 98:4 103:5 (19) pesticides 39:11 60:8,9 61:4,6,9,9 83:20 85:3,5,21 92:1 93:4 100:7 118:13,16 (16) petri 58:1 phase 57:23 phd 5:26 phosphate 55:13,16 56:5 phosphoric 55:14 phrase 89:5 134:12 phrasing 107:26 physical 35:4 39:16 51:24 physicals 51:19,21,22,25 (4) physicists 6:6 picture 6:21 141:13 pictures 27:10 piece 14:12,27 15:18 56:13 137:4 (5) pieces 19:2,2 pinkish 145:17 place 23:3 95:1 102:4 111:16 (4) places 15:21 75:10 87:18 89:26 96:27 105:5 (6) plaintiffs 148:6 plaintiffs' 145:17 plan 110:26 111:2,13,25 112:6,12,19 114:25,28 116:17 124:13 (11) plans 112:15 plant 29:16,17,20,23,28 30:3,4 41:1,14,15 51:9 52:14,17,23,2 4,25,25,26 77:27 78:3 111:22,22 123:13 143:5 (24) plants 14:2 22:13 29:13,18 30:16,16 71:16,16 73:27 (9) plastic 13:5 27:18 55:2,3 89:6 121:10,10,11 (8) plasticizer 14:12 54:9,24 55:12,24 56:5 62:1,2 68:4,7 109:21 115:22 119:26 121:23,24 122:15 (16) plasticizers 14:9 16:1 38:7 55:13,15 56:8 66:25 70:4 120:24,26 121:5,7 122:6,28 (14) plastics 12:13 27:21 play 95:21 please 2:1,9,10 25:3 70:20 129:21 131:4(7) plug 132:20 pm 147:7 podium 26:4 point 5:18 7:27 24:7 27:4 32:16,23 75:14 77:10 78:14 80:18,27 81:13 85:24 89:11 94:28 95:1 96:14 104:9 106:28 112:3 115:25 117:2,3 122:3,12 123:22 129:14 136:25 140:7,7,9 142:23 (32) pointed 67:20 127:9 pointer 72:3 pointing 91:25 points 111:10,11,17 116:17 147:1 (5) poisonous 26:19 27:6 policy 7:22 123:27 pollution 113:23 118:26 polychlorinated 20:20,26 21:12 28:12,21 62:3 143:15(7) pool 18:20 population 100:6 134:28 portion 102:13 portions 101:12 position 8:19 107:22 positions 25:8,11 possibility 59:26 Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067772 26 possible 6:14 53:24 74:17 possibly 61:12 90:1,2 103:12 112:12(5) potato 77:19 potential 74:4 76:3 96:10 99:8 100:12 103:23 119:9(7) potentially 146:9 pounds 17:21 55:9 56:4 power 113:9 130:28 140:20 ppm 86:18 practices 117:13 precautions 60:15 precisely 76:10 preeminent 57:14 premier 96:6 prepared 128:15 presence 1:9,21 84:13 85:2 109:16 145:6(6) present 1:12,23,24 70:17,17 84:24 129:15 134:3 145:8 (9) presentations 128:7,10 presented 86:4 press 137:23,26 138:3,26 (4) pressure 75:13 123:1 142:8 pretty 24:8 32:13 79:19 90:27 94:14 (5) prevalent 115:7 prevent 39:24 previous 99:15 previously 86:10 127:28 prey 100:4,5 price 124:7 primarily 6:10 33:15 42:12 71:15 73:13 104:6 (6) primary 7:22 16:28 32:23 100:3 (4) principle 30:2 prior 39:12 66:5 77:7,7 120:19(5) privileged 146:9 pro 148:14,25 probably 5:15 7:15 12:20,21,27 23:21 35:15 48:15 52:23 53:28 74:25 85:17 90:16 93:20 103:14 106:25 117:23 (17) problem 10:26 16:11 84:18,21 104:10 107:7,9 111:7(8) problems 82:3 113:15 procedure 114:19 proceedings 1:8,20 145:5 148:18 (4) process 28:15,17 29:1 40:2 41:8,17,18,22,23 52:19 53:3 71:17 72:26 73:21 97:3 103:19(16) produced 29:4 146:10 producers 82:18,20 product 12:27 14:24 17:5 21:12 27:16 33:19 35:3 45:18,27,28 49:8,11 52:13 56:10,11 59:12,13,16,19 62:3 67:21 71:21,22,26,27,28 75:9 76:21 78:2,23 89:2,6 103:5 105:3 110:3,7,10 115:5,24 116:22,23 117:8 119:9 121:26 122:24 123:19 143:14,19 144:12,24 (50) production 130:23,24 136:8,15,19 137:13 138:10 144:23 (8) products 9:2,2 12:26 13:2,14 14:20,21,22,22 15:20 21:20,25,26 27:20 28:24 30:6,10,23 32:15 44:1645:10 49:9,27 53:25 66:21 67:7,22,28 68:5,23 69:1,18 74:21 83:24 87:28 88:15 102:8 118:17 119:12 131:1 132:18 144:5,5 (43) 64:16 provide 10:4 144:5 provided 45:8,9 128:9 public 16:24,25,27 46:2,4 (5) professional 5:20,28 profitable 144:24 program 81:7 102:18 111:14 123:15,19,23 124:4 125:13 143:21 144:11 (10) publicized 43:5 publicly 86:14 publish 58:20 62:22 93:3 published 43:7 58:16 86:5,14 90:12 99:20,25 133:20 (8) programs 51:20 102:4 project 111:19 promotions 7:26 properties 2:28 7:5 24:4 25:17 30:18,28 31:3,16 32:14 34:4 35:3,4,4,8 38:7,9 39:16 57:3,20 77:8 (20) property 35:8 140:19 proportion 112:11 publishes 6:7 publishing 127:2 pulled 145:13 pulling 126:7 pumped 72:14 purchase 124:7 131:15 132:10 purchased 53:14,15 56:20 63:3 74:14 (5) purchaser 93:21 purchases 98:1 proposed 106:15 proposing 106:16 purdue 5:22,24 79:13,18,19,28 80:4,14,17 (9) protect 45:23 49:20 pure 34:26 42:1 44:1,11 93:26 (5) protection 37:15 purely 144:24 Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067773 27 purpose 113:2 purposes 56:21 110:12 119:28 pursuing 79:15 pushing 18:4,8 put 6:17,19,21 19:17 22:27 23:15,22 24:22 25:1,9 27:4,9,16,16 29:27 31:23,27 32:2 39:1945:18,18 58:10 68:6 107:7 108:3,6 111:12 116:21 124:22 129:23 130:2,22 142:2,8 (34) puts 101:20 putting 16:20 puzzled 100:22 puzzling 101:21 pydraul 38:2 67:23 69:21,23,24,25 (6) pyranol 36:3,6 pyre 36:3 pyro 36:4 quadrillion 18:3 quality 113:26 quantities 119:17 quantity 63:26 quarter 128:18 question 17:20 44:7 47:9 49:1 60:20 88:17 90:18 101:27 102:28 103:6 125:3 130:18 141:3 (13) questioned 33:5 91:26 questioning 101:4,5 102:26 questions 11:2,2 49:21 88:7,19 92:11 96:8 103:3,11 105:1,3,7 (12) quick 118:24 quickly 15:7 145:11 quit 115:4 119:27 120:8 quite 4:19 6:8 44:13 58:4 108:14 109:1 112:17 134:27 138:22 139:15 (10) radar 80:7 radiator 72:20,22 radio 35:16,19 railroad 140:15 raise 2:1 11:17 raising 92:11 ran 85:15 range 6:6 85:11 rangefinding 97:12 rat 97:9,10 rates 46:6 61:1 rather 8:8 15:26 43:21 144:1 (4) rats 57:22 58:1 97:13 99:6,6 133:19,21,23 134:23,24 139:9 (11) raytheon 133:1 reached 77:21 react 25:6 28:19 90:8 99:6 (4) reaction 25:7 28:19 72:14,16 90:6 126:19 (6) reactive 23:23 read 75:15 81:22 92:26 101:8 118:3 124:5 139:6,8 (8) real 44:17 140:14 146:27 reality 103:5 realized 98:11 106:2 really 7:23 8:10 13:11 18:6,7 19:13 21:16 27:23 30:14,24 32:25,26 33:19,19 34:23,25 40:26 41:6 48:14 75:19 80:7,18 83:22 85:25 86:20 88:6,8 89:27 92:6 94:13 97:22 100:5 101:6,20,28 103:4,6 106:21 107:10 113:2 115:2,13 118:15,24 119:16 120:21 121:19 122:21 125:25 127:3 133:22 135:25 136:3,16,17 139:16 140:2 141:28 (58) reason 20:6,23 39:1747:15 57:3 (5) reasons 8:26 37:10,11 73:14 83:12,25 132:19 139:20 (8) recall 47:19 48:18 52:20,21 57:18 73:24 99:15 132:13 (8) recap 107:4 receive 7:27 received 6:27 94:16 142:16 144:3 (4) receiving 5:26 recently 12:24 recess 70:15 145:2 147:7 recirculate 72:18 recognize 12:26 13:12 75:19 recognized 50:14 113:19 recollection 40:20 recommendation 62:24 108:27 111:12 recommendation s 126:23 recommended 62:5 111:4 124:25 record 1:10,11,23 50:8 54:17 69:15 87:16 109:18 145:8 (9) recorder 85:13 records 51:7,9 54:2,7,10 63:22 68:26,28 69:16,19 (10) red 89:22 145:17 reduce 112:12 referred 11:2 38:1 120:26 referring 109:24 123:16 refers 43:27 reflect 1:12,23 145:8 refunded 124:7 regard 67:19 76:9 regarding 9:12 115:16 126:5 134:13 138:19 (5) register 38:16 64:18 65:6,6 66:1 (5) registered 64:22 registration 118:11,12,13 regulate 137:5 138:14 regulated 64:11,12 139:21 regulations 8:27 138:13,16,19,24 Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067774 28 140:5 (6) regulatory 94:6 118:27 reheated 72:19 reiterates 102:10 reitman 16:2 33:5 38:5 49:22 65:5 (5) rejecting 119:13 related 7:25 47:11 relation 26:25 relations 16:24,25,27 relative 31:8 48:5 relatively 31:26 48:6 122:9 release 137:24,26 138:3,4,27 139:2,3 (7) released 101:23 103:19 109:28 remain 10:28 remember 12:7 27:11 36:1 75:11 95:22 106:25 107:16,20 127:5,5 (10) remind 121:13 reminding 13:18 renate 133:15 renowned 6:7 repeated 45:21 repeating 59:21 repeats 49:15 rephrase 58:14 replace 110:3 replaced 53:13 58:28 replacement 109:21 110:2 113:10 119:5,9 123:2,9 (7) replacements 136:23 report 7:8 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www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067775 29 58:12 60:14,20 62:1,10 63:5,14 64:27 65:11 66:16,27 67:5 70:7 73:1,28 74:6,27 75:6,27 76:25 78:17 79:9,23 80:10,20 81:10 82:1 83:1 84:8 86:24,26,27,28 88:24 90:21,23,26 91:1 92:13 93:11,14 94:1,3,12,28 95:3,10,25 97:6,27,28 99:12 101:8 102:15 104:2,23 105:9,26 106:7,14 107:21 108:8,11 109:18 111:6,16,16,26 112:8,19,23 113:12 115:16 117:10,20 119:22,24 120:4 121:4,21 123:4,5,13,26 124:1 126:11 127:11 128:2,20 131:12,21,24 132:2,3,6,8,26 133:5,8 134:5,17 135:14,16,20 136:7,11 137:24 139:3,12,13 140:2,24 141:2 145:1 147:5 (177) rights 79:21 142:7 ring 19:25,26 20:21 25:14 28:9,10 31:10,17 (8) rings 20:22 21:15 22:1,4 25:1,8 26:11 (7) risebrough 99:10,13,17,27 100:8,14 101:5 102:27 103:1 110:18 (10) risebrough's 99:26 100:20 risk 6:14 129:1 river 29:14 rivers 30:17 riverside 98:26 99:16 rmr 148:25 robert 2:3,11 70:10 99:17 142:17(5) rocket 23:26 24:6 role 91:25 rooms 16:9 77:26 roslyn 148:5 roughly 48:7 roundup 12:28,28 13:3 rubbing 31:27 rule 139:12,15,16 rules 34:24,25 35:18 ruling 65:12 running 41:21 safe 43:3 49:28 51:15 57:27 (4) safekeeping 145:25 safely 42:16 45:24 49:19 59:3 81:24 (5) safety 27:8 37:10 51:17 73:5 132:23 (5) said 6:26 14:17 18:8 28:2 30:16,21 38:24 42:21 43:7,8 47:12 49:27 52:16 58:11 60:13 67:6 75:5 86:15 91:2,7 107:12 112:28,28 113:8,14 116:21 123:6,11 127:5 133:20 135:17 136:25 139:1 141:9,10,10,12,12 146:12(39) sale 113:7 130:19,23 144:23 (4) sales 13:26 14:15 15:8 48:9 54:2,7,8,10 55:24 68:26,28 69:15,19 73:7,8 120:2 121:13,23 136:19 (19) salespeople 16:21 salyer 1:5 148:14,25 same 7:8 16:8 17:2 19:18,21 20:4 24:9 26:1 28:1731:20 37:15 48:1 49:24 56:3 57:6 63:24 84:4,4 85:15,16 92:2 96:28 99:6 102:13 106:12,13 107:1,11 114:9,9,12,14 117:22 118:20 127:28 132:22 147:8 (37) sample 114:19,20,20 samples 17:26 85:2 88:21 93:23,26,28 94:2,4 ,9,15,17,22,26 95:23 96:11 98:15,17,24 99:16 102:23 103:25,28 127:1 128:1 (24) san 99:14,21,25 100:21 (4) satisfactory 64:7 110:8 sauget 52:16,25 saw 33:11 48:24 52:8 73:6 77:17 85:16 101:2 110:1 127:9,28 133:24 (11) say 9:5 24:8,9 25:23 30:12 33:17,23 44:28 49:13 58:27 64:1 75:10 85:17 101:4,20 112:28 114:16 132:1 (18) saying 24:5 26:27 45:6,16 75:4 78:16 82:7 87:8 88:3 89:5 101:5 102:4 115:8,26 118:15 120:7,9,16 131:24(19) says 33:6 35:8 37:17 54:27 60:14 63:21 74:20 76:27 78:14 93:5 104:20 105:10 107:6 111:3 112:27 114:11,11,12,12 115:1 128:27 131:14 143:8 (23) sc 53:5,7,13,15,18 54:1,4,9 56:5,15,16,20 (12) scene 99:10 school 5:19 80:5,15 science 5:24,26 6:4,7 31:7 (5) scientific 62:22 127:2 scientist 86:7 scientists 6:5 40:9 84:23 90:15 91:12 104:28 (6) scope 98:28 screen 80:8 sealed 27:17 101:25 121:14 search 63:21 seat 26:23 seated 2:9 second 3:15 18:1721:27 37:8 46:12 60:4,7 78:18 79:10 83:28 86:24 105:14 108:20(13) see 15:16 19:3 24:27,27 31:6 35:1041:1044:23 54:15 64:20 66:5 70:14 75:1 76:26 85:12,16 87:8 92:5 96:25 105:8 129:27 130:1 135:25 136:3 138:24 140:20 145:4 146:20 147:5 (29) Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067776 30 seeing 27:3 63:19 66:17 81:28 83:15 85:4,20 88:18 103:10 107:16 (10) seemed 89:8 110:8 seen 3:26 15:5 20:11 27:10 33:7,12 46:11 50:7 53:17,20 56:19 60:28 62:26 64:23 65:10 68:16 69:28 70:2 74:20 75:21 77:25 79:4 82:27 86:11 88:3 92:2 104:2,11 107:13 120:16 121:2 126:28 128:22 129:17 145:26 (35) sees 116:23 sense 44:14 100:27 102:1 105:2(4) sensitive 146:8 sensitivity 143:23 sent 36:22 67:18 68:20 90:24 93:28 95:1 99:16 109:21 110:4 113:21 126:20 127:7 (12) sentence 118:3 separate 16:27 72:6 95:28 separated 17:6 separates 85:10 September 126:25 sharing 117:18 shatter 13:7 she 33:5 133:18 134:25 135:3,5,25 136:3 (7) shell 91:21,22,23,27 (4) ship 56:10 132:27 shipment 137:19 shipped 49:27 ships 90:2 short 4:20 86:5 shorthand 24:28 shortly 50:19 selective 106:3 series 21:25 shorts 34:6 sell 36:7,8,11 56:8,10 64:9 74:21 107:18,27 108:28 130:16,28 (12) selling 9:8 32:23 54:22,23 55:7 56:4,15 69:16 71:26 105:22 116:7 117:25 120:8,17 136:20 144:17,20 (17) send 66:25 91:18 93:23 103:25,28 124:6 (6) sending 94:2,4,15,22 95:12 102:22 127:1 132:4 139:8 (9) sends 93:13 126:4 serious 40:15 41:2 42:23 service 37:20 set 111:25 114:3 sets 135:28 seven 104:14,16,17 105:20 (4) several 83:14 87:17 90:9 101:21 108:4,21 127:9 128:26 135:22 146:26(10) sewage 29:20,28 30:2,4 (4) shards 13:7 share 144:8 shortterm 40:15 102:22 144:1 shot 14:26 18:20 should 26:16 46:12 49:7 78:8,16 109:15 118:17,17 126:23 137:27 141:15 (11) show 1:14,19 10:7 23:8 25:3 42:20 43:1 50:9 63:22 101:11,13,16,18 102:14 129:20 (15) showed 33:5 42:26 53:11 55:27 58:7,11 64:21 65:5 67:5,7 100:17,19 101:4 136:9(14) showing 34:27 42:20 56:4,14 69:14 81:18 94:2 109:18 117:26 (9) shown 101:7,16 109:27 shows 63:20 69:16 shrinks 12:25 shuffle 46:28 shut 113:8 136:19 shutdown 136:8,15 sick 40:24 59:25,26,27 78:6 79:2,7 (7) side 55:21,27 58:8 101:17 102:2 146:15,18 (7) sides 145:15,16 signal 78:28 85:13 signaled 143:26 signals 46:5 85:5 signature 148:23 significantly 48:16 silent 79:25 silly 71:3 similar 19:24 23:19 35:22 57:19 71:18 72:20 126:19(7) similarities 27:1 simply 122:3 since 9:24,28 10:10,20 53:5 83:3 88:16 (7) single 19:10 85:14,14 singled 143:26 sipping 16:12 sir 66:13 sit 91:13 sitting 57:28 situation 76:12 103:18 104:13 124:27 (4) situations 104:14 six 19:27 37:7 79:17 97:17 105:20 128:21 129:23 138:7 (8) size 48:5,8,12,21 (4) skin 42:23 skip 130:5 138:26 slide 1:14,19 5:18 15:5,26 27:4 33:5,6 37:7 43:26 58:8 69:13 99:15 102:2 108:9 136:9 (16) slides 6:19 10:16 120:16 135:24,28 (5) slight 134:4,7 Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067777 31 slightly 134:8 small 14:27 15:18 17:25 18:22,27 19:4 23:24 28:27 52:18 64:3 73:25 86:27,27,28 94:2,4 140:23 142:1 (18) smaller 17:28 18:14,14 smallest 19:12 smell 21:15 75:8,26 society 6:9,12 132:15 144:1 (4) sold 13:13 15:13 53:19 54:3 56:9,22 67:8 69:2,18,21 70:1 74:9,19 77:19 115:22,23 121:5 (17) solubility 31:9 soluble 31:4 101:22 solutia 8:6,9,11,15,18 13:9 20:15 69:7 (8) solutiamonsanto 8:1 solution 23:24,24 solvents 56:6,13,15 some 3:25,27 5:19,28 6:1,6 10:14 16:11 18:16 20:6,23 21:16 23:21 29:5 31:15 32:8 34:27 35:7 36:9 37:10,14 38:7,10 40:11,14,16,23,24 41:26,27,27 44:16,24 49:21 50:9,11 51:11,12 53:15 56:8 57:17,25,25 61:5,14 62:6,14 63:3 64:2 65:13,26 68:28 71:5 73:11,13 74:6 75:14,23,25 80:1,14 82:9 83:17 84:23 85:4,24 87:25 88: 9,14,15,17,17,20 89:17,21 90:2 91:3 96:26 98:18 99:28 100:1,4 101:27 102:16 103:4 104:10,14,18 105:28 106:3,26 107:14,18 112:13 113:3 115:5 119:27 120:24 122:21 123:18 126:23 127:28 134:10 138:17 139 : 19,22,22,27,28 141:11,11,12 142:4 145:15,28 146:1 (116) somebody 43:14 82:1 90:3 106:8 107:24 118:4 (6) someodd 130:11 someone 10:26 13:647:9 100:11 130:2,5,9(7) someplace 78:10 something 4:15 10:7,27 17:18,19 18:21 21:22,23 22:14,16 23:13 29:22 30:23 34:6 44:11 49:2 53:13 55:7 61:21,25 73:15 75:24 77:17 83:4 85:13 103:5 106:7,16 129:22 (29) sometimes 6:16 11:12 17:23 72:10 (4) somewhat 5:8 29:13 somewhere 17:19 35:14 90:4 121:19 (4) sooner 124:6 sophisticated 90:14 sophomore 79:12 sorry 8:13 26:16 28:16 38:21 44:6 63:18 67:16 104:4 105:24 118:10 122:16 134:6 136:9 139:2 143:1 (15) sort 90:2 sorts 94:17 sound 71:3 sounds 79:21 124:26 146:5 source 33:6 72:6,9,13 73:1,17 84:16 103:23 130:7 143:6 (10) sources 6:14 south 9:23 southern 9:23,26 soybeans 61:23 speak 4:1 39:8 114:9 spec 98:7 103:2 special 98:6 146:1 specific 35:11 47:9,9 50:6 69:25 100:12 124:1 (7) specifically 37:25 44:16 50:3 61:28 79:10 88:10 95:12 106:22 115:5,22 (10) specification 35:8,15 specifications 34:21,25,28 35:22 36:22 (5) specifics 146:14 specifies 111:10 specify 58:26 specs 35:18 spectrometer 85:27 86:1 spectrometry 7:14,17 speculated 87:22 100:8 speculation 110:17 spell 2:10 spend 12:1 spoke 9:12 sport 130:10 spot 70:8 sprayed 102:11 spraying 27:12 61:25 spread 27:13 29:24 spring 79:25 spun 8:5 spur 87:24 squeeze 26:3 st 9:18 12:17 111:23 stable 31:14,15,17 101:22 (4) staff 7:22 99:24 stainless 77:1 stand 1:28 2:9 26:6 146:12 (4) standardized 114:8 132:17,18,21 (4) standards 130:2 standing 41:19 70:10 stands 96:5 123:7 start 15:10 20:25 23:8 24:13,15 25:9 26:27 60:5 80:6 86:21 90:13 96:21 142:15 (13) started 6:267:2 17:11 51:2,8 84:7 88:4 89:1 97:2,24 102:21 (11) Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067778 32 starting 16:16 20:1 55:3 80:9 93:3 96:28 107:5 (7) starts 25:7 50:27 94:15,25 (4) state 2:10 95:8 98:16 148:1,15 (5) states 6:5 48:18 79:22 82:19 95:11 98:17 99:19 113:27 118:6 141:28 (10) station 37:19,20 stations 140:20 Stauffer 12:20 stay 26:4 27:16 83:27 121:10 (4) stayed 51:15 stays 13:8 steam 72:9 steel 77:1 step 33:3 46:12 78:18 79:9 114:18 (5) stepbystep 114:19 Stephen 1:4 148:3 stick 64:5 82:13 stickier 64:5 still 4:21 5:12 7:20 8:25 10:9 11:13 12:22 13:9 24:23 29:17 32:5 37:19 69:7 100:22,25 103:23 105:1,4 110:10 130:15 138:5 139:19,22,27 141:25 (25) stills 20:16 stimulated 88:7 stop 114:28 135:7 137:10 144:17(4) stopped 3:18,19 9:8 115:12 137:13 144:20,23 (7) stored 124:12 storing 125:8 story 39:7 40:24 58:12 93:12 135:12 142:21 (6) straddling 41:19 streams 30:17 stress 66:22 strict 34:24 structure 19:26 22:14 23:18 24:1,3 25:26 26:5,7,18 27:18 28:9 42:5 (12) structures 24:8 students 80:15 studied 43:2 57:19,20 133:27 (4) studies 40:26 42:12,14 43:1,3,12 49:16 57:9,10,17,24 59:5,6 62:14 81:18,20 82:16,23 84:23 96:12 99:1,3 100:18 134:2 135:19 141:11 (26) study 6:13 40:18 44:1045:17 58:19,20,28,28 97: 4,6,8,10,10,12,15, 17,19,22 103:17 124:13 126:21 133 :10,12,21,25,26 134:16 135:13,15,17 138:1 141:9,9,10 (34) studying 7:5 84:26 98:25 133:18(4) stuff 87:8 115:10 styrene 41:12 42:28 subject 83:13 146:19 subjected 135:1 submit 11:19,20 101:10 submitted 128:16 substances 80:28 137:3 substantial 146:24 substitutes 137:14 such 46:9 66:3,4 70:2 77:14 82:28 83:21 84:14,21 117:1 123:1 (11) sufficiently 108:18 suggest 39:16 62:19 66:24 suggested 58:21 62:6 104:14 suggestions 61:14 117:17 suggests 119:14 suitable 136:27 suited 64:4 summarized 100:21 104:14 summarizes 42:21 102:16 summarizing 93:1 99:26 summary 76:8,10 94:28 99:27 139:7 (5) summer 79:13 81:8,23 82:2 83:27 84:15 137:11 (7) superfund 80:25,27 superior 148:1,6,15 supplier 41:6 suppliers 116:6 supply 41:6 support 11:28 suppressed 46:2 sure 5:21 11:5 15:19,28 25:28 36:3 49:26 51:14,17 52:22 67:1 74:12 76:26 81:11 84:6 90:21 93:26 107:1,10 111:15 114:8,13 117:16 122:23 124:16 125:12,14 126:1 127:3 132:21 143:21 145:24 (32) surprising 99:5 suspected 100:1 swann 39:28 40:3,6,28 41:5 (5) Sweden 85:1,25 90:25 91:13 (4) Swedish 91:12 swimming 18:20 sworn 2:4 symbol 72:11 100:5 symbolic 71:12 system 29:28 30:1 71:11,12,19 72:2,10,24 73:11,23 74:1,3,9,14,15 98:10 120:23 141:1 (18) systemic 59:28 60:1,2,18,19 (5) systems 29:18,19 71:13 72:5 74:3,7,9,16 75:11 101:25,26 121:14,17,18,20 124:9 133:1 140:15(18) tabs 145:15,18 tail 26:13,14 Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067779 33 take 26:23 45:4 70:12 79:9 102:8 104:8 111:23 114:19 123:19,21 125:10,15 126:26 145:2(14) takeback 123:15 144:11 taken 10:11 33:13 147:7 148:18 (4) takes 89:18 97:17,19,22 125:1 (5) taking 102:5 talk 5:16 9:14 15:23 20:18 21:11 27:2 29:7 34:16 38:11 46:11 53:5 54:25 56:1 60:9 65:12 67:3 71:3 77:23 83:26 120:14 133:8 137:27 138:15 140:28 146:2,18 (26) talked 16:22 18:15 24:14 28:4 35:10 37:9,13 38:5,8 39:25 40:15 42:17 46:12 56:25 58:25 73:14 74:27 83:14 84:1 86:18,23 102:7 104:13 108:17 110:17 117:22 123:17 126:6 146:15 (29) talking 24:12 31:12 33:24 35:7 48:24 54:1,20 76:2 77:15 86:21 93:5 98:6 102:16 104:24 105:21,21 114:23 117:13 118:7,20 124:17 139:11 (22) talks 77:26 tanks 41:20 task 126:14,16,21 127:13,18,25 128:5,16,25 (9) tatton 94:5 tbep 55:9,11 56:15 team 6:18 technical 10:26 85:6 116:14 techniques 117:18 technology 36:10 125:18,27 tell 5:13 6:23 8:19 9:14,28 12:2 15:3,7 25:26 32:4 42:19,20 47:1,17,18 54:13 61:27 74:11 85:18 89:12,14,15 96:1 99:13 106:1,20 109:20 111:1 115:18,27,28 116:17 120:1 126:16 130:26 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75:15 78:10 89:20,22 131:26 (10) thereafter 3:22 therminol 67:24 Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067780 34 69:2,4,6,8,16 70:24,26,28 73:6,9 74:27 75:1,8 76:9 77:2,20 121:28 122:2,6,17,28 126:5,9 (24) therminols 74:24 these 6:1,19 24:1725:8 31:16 32:14 35:3 36:20 40:17,26 41:19,20,21 45:23 49:24 51:9 57:28 67:21,28 68:5 74:16 75:11 80:7 85:19 86:17,18 88:3,10 89:9 94:8 98:5 100:18 102:22 108:24 109:15,17 110:14,15,21,22 111:17 112:24 113:1,7 115:26 116:8,14 120:8 125:8,16 127:25 128:14,15,22,23 131:26 132:27 146:11 (58) thesis 6:28 they're 12:23 17:28 18:3 24:9,9 31:14 32:11 33:28 55:14 75:12,13 78:6 87:8 90:27 93:17 97:14 98:19,23 104:20 114:9,23,28 120:9 121:24 122:12 126:7 131:18 132:4,8 140:4,6 (31) they've 11:27 16:2,3 38:17 83:3 127:1 (6) thick 108:14 thin 13:5 thing 7:8 8:1 17:2 19:21 20:4 37:15 56:3 63:24 71:25 92:19 100:7 106:12,13 118:20 132:22(15) things 4:2 10:4 13:11 17:17,22 21:15 32:2 82:5 84:19 88:18,21 89:9,27 90:9 97:18 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20:9,10,13 29:1738:16 89:11 124:25 137:27 139:22,24 (16) together 6:19 13:8 19:17,19 20:22,24 24:22 25:1 26:11 27:4 39:19 85:28 107:7 111:13 112:14 126:22 127:3 129:23 (18) told 9:11 18:17 35:2 71:8 82:2 90:11 113:11 115:4 119:10 137:15 138:18 (11) tonic 18:21 tons 17:22 too 4:20 5:6 90:13 99:5,9 138:27 (6) took 70:22 98:5 123:8 144:11 (4) top 74:12 92:22 123:26 topic 47:11 53:5 Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067781 35 torrance 143:5 tosca 137:2 total 15:8 47:22 totally 32:11 42:5 touched 39:15 90:5 100:26 touching 59:20 104:21 tough 40:5 town 9:22 toxic 27:22 42:13 44:13 60:1 80:28 137:3 (6) toxicities 99:8 toxicity 27:23 40:9,18 42:8 45:22 50:17 57:9,21,24,26 58:6 59:6 78:21 81:6 102:21 (15) toxicological 129:7 toxicologist 57:12 97:5 toxicologists 135:28 toxicology 57:14 66:20 81:7 96:6 133:18 (5) trace 28:25,26 29:2 traction 80:19 trade 21:10,11,13 36:1,16,18,21 37:4 38:2 69:4 70:28 (11) transcript 148:17 transfer 15:23 20:17,18 32:28 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www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067782 36 5:23,25 40:9 57:13 90:25 98:21,21 99:16 104:6 106:11,15 114:7 135:27 (13) unknown 20:7 unless 50:11 until 3:12 37:5 125:8 138:24 147:7(5) unusual 46:6 52:11 59:7 61:1 (4) up 5:22 6:10,17,21 7:27 9:21,23 15:11 19:23,27 22:28 25:10,13 30:1,5 37:5 53:6 55:21 60:8 61:22 65:15 71:5,9 78:28 79:6 81:15 85:21 94:24 105:17,20 107:3,12 110:2,6,12 111:25 118:24 125:10 127:25 130:22 131:4,8 142:8 (43) update 108:24 upon 46:10 48:4 upper 109:7 upshaw 1:14,15,17,26,27 2:16 7:28 8:10,18 22:22,25 23:2,5,7 44:5,8,27 54:17,25 55:5,26 63:6,9,17,19 65:18,23 66:15,17 67:15 69:11 70:8,19,20 92:16,18,21 105:24,27 116:11,13 119:1,3 127:17 131:4,7 136:12 140:7 141:15,17,19 145:1 146:26 147:4 (54) upstream 90:4 urges 118:10 urging 119:23 us 2:26 5:13,14 6:23 8:19 9:12,13,28 10:17 12:2 15:7 25:26 27:2 29:7 39:20,25 42:19 47:1 54:13,25 62:13 64:14 70:22 82:25 94:19 95:3,3,17,25,26 96:26,26 98:3 99:13,22 102:24 103:10 104:9 106:1,20 109:5,20,27 118:7,15 126:18 127:10 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37 want 7:16,28 10:7 16:11 22:24 35:5,17 42:19 47:24 50:11 72:6 73:1,17 97:15 101:18 106:7 116:9 120:9 131:25 138:26 141:3 145:12,22 146:2,13 (25) wanted 37:23 90:12 91:13 99:3,7 102:14 106:12(7) wants 70:11 war 49:4 50:18,19,19,22 80:18 (6) 23:14,27 24:5 29:28 31:4,23,24,25 35:15,15,17 89:28 101:23 116:20 118:26(16) wax 53:19 54:4 56:21 waxes 54:21,27 55:10 way 16:20 25:10 27:15 33:27 64:17 85:22 100:24,28 102:19,26 108:4 113:11 116:21 117:24 121:8 124:14,25 135:9 (18) warn 49:5 warned 50:3 74:5 78:23 warning 60:1,1 70:3 116:22,23 117:7,9,10,13 (9) warnings 45:8,9 48:26 49:23 59:15 60:10 81:19 116:14(8) wasn't 11:16,17 16:26 28:2 39:6 41:8 52:12 89:19 103:6,22 105:23 112:18 128:8,12,20 129:22(16) waste 29:14 wastes 30:5 watch 143:20 watched 143:12 water 16:11 we'll 1:10 3:14 7:1721:11 44:9 50:16 60:5 66:25 70:9 71:3 85:19 88:20 138:24 (13) we're 15:23 18:2 19:13 20:18 27:2 34:15 47:13 54:13 56:4 59:20 66:27 75:27 77:16 82:7 86:15 88:28 90:21 93:11 95:22 97:4,25 102:19 103:10 106:28 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