Document BnaOjKKE001ENJYJB8pGvr34

Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF CALHOUN COUNTY, ALABAMA 2 JOHN E. MASSEY and 3 PEGGY MASSEY, 4 Plaintiffs, 5 Vs CV-96-657 6 MONSANTO COMPANY, et al., 7 Defendants. 8 9 DEPOSITION OF: BRUCE ELLY 10 11 1 2 In accordance with Rule 5(d) of 1 3 the Alabama Rules of Civil Procedure, as 1 4 Amended, effective May 15, 1988, I, Susan 1 5 Masters Goldman, am hereby delivering to M. 1 6 JACK HOLLINGSWORTH, ESQ., the original 1 7 transcript of the oral testimony taken on 1 8 the 17th day of July, 1998, along with 1 9 exhibits . 2 0 Please be advised that this is 2 1 the same and not retained by the Court 2 2 Reporter, nor filed with the Court. 23 )i 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1-800-888-DEPO " HARTOLDMONOQ34756 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF CALHOUN COUNTY, ALABAMA 2 JOHN E. MASSEY and 3 PEGGY MASSEY, 4 Plaintiffs, 5 vs CV-96-657 6 MONSANTO COMPANY, et al . , 7 Defendants . 8 STIPULATION 9 IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED, by 1 0 and between the parties through their 1 1 respective counsel, that the deposition of 1 2 BRUCE ELLY, taken before Susan Masters 1 3 Goldman, Certified Shorthand Reporter and 1 4 Notary Public at Hollingsworth and 1 5 Associates, 505 North 20th Street, 1615 1 6 Financial Center, Birmingham, Alabama, 1 7 35203, on the 17th of July, 1998, 1 8 commencing at 10:00 a.m. 1 9 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND 2 0 AGREED that the signature to and the 2 1 reading of the deposition by the witness is 2 2 waived, the deposition to have the same 2 3 force and effect as if full compliance had 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888'DEPO L/ HART OLDMON0034757 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 3 1 been had with all laws and rules of Court 2 relating to the taking of deposition. 3 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND 4 AGREED that it shall not be necessary for 5 any objections to be made by counsel as to 6 anyquestions, except as to form or leading 7 questions, andthat counsel for the parties 8 may make objections and assign grounds at 9 the time of the trial, or at the time said 1 0 deposition is offered in evidence, or prior 1 1 thereto. 1 2 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND 1 3 AGREED that notice of the filing of the 1 4 deposition by the Commissioner is waived. 1 5 INDEX 1 6 EXAMINATION BY: Page No. 1 7 Mr. Hollingsworth 5-152 18 19 20 21 22 23 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 '800'888'DEPO LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034758 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 APPEARANCES BEFORE: Susan Masters Goldman, CSR, and Notary Public. APPEARING ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFF: M. Jack Hollingsworth, Esq. Hollingsworth and Associates 1615 Financial Center Birmingham, Alabama 35203 APPEARING ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANTS; William S. Cox, III, Esq. Suzanne Alldredge, Esq. Lightfoot, Franklin & White 300 Financial Center Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Also present: John Massey 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800'888'DEPO LA HART OLDMON0034759 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 5 1 I, Susan Masters Goldman, CSR, 2 acting as Notary Public, certify that on 3 this date as provided by Rule 30 of the 4 Alabama Rules of Civil Procedure, and the 5 foregoing stipulations of counsel, there 6 came before me at the law offices o f 7 Hollingsworth and Associates , 5 0 5 North 8 2 0 th Street, 16 15 Financial Center / 9 Birmingham, Alabama, 35203, on the 17 th 1 0 July , 19 9 8, commencing at or about 10:00 1 1 a . m . , BRUCE ELLY. witness in the above 1 2 cause, for oral examination, whereupon, the 1 3 following proceedings were had: 1 4 BRUCE ELLY. 1 5 after having been first duly sworn, 1 6 testified as follows: 1 7 EXAMINATION BY HOLLINGSWORTH: 1 8 Q. Mr. Elly, could you state your 1 9 name for the record, please? 2 0 A. Bruce W. Elly. 2 1 Q. And where do you reside? 2 2 A. 1729 Carman Valley Drive, 2 3 C-A-R-M-A-N, St. Louis, Missouri. 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 '80O888-DEPO " HARTOL D MO N0034760 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 1 Q. How long have you been at that 2 address? 3 A. Since 1985. 4 Q. Have you been in St. Louis longer 5 than that -- have you been in St. Louis 6 prior to 1 9 8 5? 7 A . Yes. 8 Q Okay. Where did you live prior 9 to that? 1 0 A . I can't remember exactly the 11 address. It was Monaco Road in Creve 1 2 C o e u r, Mi s s o u r i . 13 Q. Creve Coeur. Is that a bedroom 1 4 community of St. Louis? 1 5 A . Yes, it i s . 1 6 Q - How do you spell that? 1 7 A . C-R-E-V -E, C-O-E- U-R . 1 8 Q . And any other locations there in 1 9 St. Louis? Are you a native of St. Louis? 2 0 A. No, I'm not. 21 Q. Okay. Where are you from 2 2 originally? 2 3 A. Originally born in Conway, 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 '800-888'DEPO LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034761 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 7 1 Arkansas . 2 Q. Did you go to high school there 3 in Conway? 4 A . No, I didn't. 5 Q Where did you go to high school? 6 A . Went to high school in Prescott, 7 Arkansas. 8 Q. Do you or have you known anyone 9 associated with Bill or Hillary Clinton? 1 0 MR. HOLLINGSWORTH: Off the 1 1 record. 1 2 (OFF-THE-RECORD.) 1 3 Q. (By Mr. Hollingsworth) High 14 school in Prescott. And is that -- what 1 5 part of the state is that in? 1 6 A . That's near Texarkana, Arkansas. 1 7 Texarkana , Texas. 18 Q Okay. And then you went to 1 9 college. I assume ? 2 0 A . Yes. 21 Q Okay. Where did you go? 2 2 A . At the University of Arkansas in 2 3 Fayetteville, Arkansas. 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 ^800^888J3EPO " HART OLDMON0034762 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 1 Q. Chemistry major, chemical 2 engineering? 3 A. Civil engineering. 4 Q. Civil engineering. Did you join 5 Monsanto right out of college? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Okay. And then you moved to St. 8 Louis, I assume? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. Okay. What capacity did you join 1 1 Monsanto? 1 2 A. As an environmental research 1 3 engineer . 1 4 Q. What year was that? 1 5 A. 1969, June. 16 Q. Okay. And were you-- was your 1 7 primary place of employment in St. Louis? 1 8 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. And how long were you in 2 0 that capacity? 2 1 A. Until September of 1971. 2 2 Q. And then what area did you move 2 3 into? 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 "800-888-DEPO " HARTOLDMON0034763 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 9 1 A. I transferred into the department 2 of medicine and environmental health, a 3 corporate staff function. I transferred in 4 as an industrial hygienist. 5 Q. Did you receive any post-graduate 6 education at all following your degree 7 from -- 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And what was that? 1 0 A. Masters in civil engineering and 1 1 the discipline was sanitary or 1 2 environmental engineering. 1 3 Q. Was that at the University of 1 4 Arkansas, as well? 1 5 A. Correct. 1 6 Q. Did yougo immediately 1 7 afterwards, or did you do this as you were 1 8 working for Monsanto? 1 9 A. I went immediate afterwards. 20 Q. Okay. So that would have been a 2 1 one-year curriculum following your -- 2 2 A. About a one-year curriculum. 2 3 Q. Did you have any other 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1-800-888-DEPO " HARTOLDMON0034764 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 10 1 post-graduate education in related fields 2 of environmental health or as an industrial 3 hygienist, did you take any courses in that 4 regard? 5 A. Yes, I did, not formal academic 6 courses, but training courses given by 7 NIOSH, the National Institute of 8 Occupational Safety and Health, seminars on 9 noise control, a course at Wayne State 1 0 University on toxicology, industrial 11 toxicology. Then I continued to take 1 2 seminars at various conferences, 1 3 professional development courses throughout 1 4 the years. 15 Q. Okay. Let me go on that and ask 1 6 you following your appointment in 1979 to 1 7 the department of medicine, -- 18 MR. COX: '71. 19 Q. '71, I'm sorry. -- what was your 2 0 next position? 2 1 A. Between 1971 and 1981, I was an 2 2 industrial hygienist and advanced in the 2 3 field of industrial hygiene within the 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 '800-888'DEPO " HARTOLDMON0034765 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 11 1 department; and by that I mean, industrial 2 hygienist, senior industrial hygienist, 3 industrial hygiene specialist. 4 Between approximately 1978 and 5 1981, I was the corporate manager of 6 industrial hygiene. 7 Q. Tell me what in laymen's term or 8 how you'd define in laymen's terms the job 9 of industrial hygienist. 1 0 A. I think the simplest description 1 1 is industrial hygiene is the recognition, 1 2 evaluation and control of workplace 1 3 chemical and physical hazards. 1 4 Q. Now, are you in that capacity -- 15 no, I'm sorry, that's still 1981. What is 1 6 your current capacity, or was there 1 7 anything between 1981 and now that - 1 8 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. Tell me about that. 2 0 A. Between 1981 and 1987, I was 2 1 manager of health and safety -- or 2 2 industrial hygiene and safety in the 2 3 agricultural group of Monsanto. 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 '800'888-DEPO _ HARTOLDMON0034766 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 12 1 From 1987 until 1981 - 2 MR. COX: Wait. '91. 3 A. Excuse me, '91. -- I was manager 4 of the product labeling safety and health 5 for the agricultural group. 6 And then in 1991, I transferred 7 back into the corporate environment safety 8 and health staff, we called the ESH staff, 9 as manager environmental technical 1 0 support. 1 1 I was in that position until 1 2 September of 1997, at which time I joined 1 3 Solutia, S-0-L-U-T-I-A, Inc., I-N-C., as 1 4 manager environmental affairs. 1 5 Q. And that's your current position? 1 6 A. Correct. 17 Q. Okay. Now, is the agricultural 1 8 division, is that a subdivision of 19 Monsanto? Is that a separate division? 2 0 A. At thattime, the agricultural 2 1 division had grown to be the agricultural 2 2 company or agricultural group of Monsanto. 23 Q. Okay. Prior to that, you were 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 '800-888-DEPO L/ HARTOLDMON0034767 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS __________________________________________________________ Li 1 with the corporate group which you are now 2 part o f , as well? 3 A . Correct . 4 Q That's right. 5 A . But prior to that, I was part o f 6 the c o r p o rate group with Monsanto. 7 Q Okay. 8 A . I'm currently a part of the 9 corporate group with Solutia, Inc. 1 0 Q . Did Solutia -- I don 't know 1 1 whether this was a name change or whether 1 2 this was a reorganization of a spin-of f o r 1 3 what , but did that have anything to do with 1 4 the purchase by American Home Products? 1 5 A . No . 16 Q. Okay. That came about before the 1 7 purchase? 1 8 A. Correct. 19 Q. Okay. Are you involved with any 2 0 of the personnel or management of American 2 1 Home Products today? 2 2 A . No. 23 Q. Okay. Has that purchase been 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 '800'888"DEPO LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034768 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 14 1 consummated? 2 A. I don't know. 3 Q. Okay. Have you published any 4 articles or written any authoritative 5 treatises or anything of that nature at 6 all? 7 A. I have authored or coauthored 8 four publications. 9 Q. Can you tell me off the top of 1 0 your head, or would you just like to 1 1 supplement the deposition with maybe with 1 2 your CV or something of that nature? 13 MR. COX: Do you recall what 1 4 they were? 1 5 A. That would probably be best. 1 6 There's only one of the four that I really 1 7 recall, and that was my Masters' thesis. 1 8 Q. Okay. 1 9 A. And that dealt with the 2 0 eutrophication process. 2 1 Q. The what process? 2 2 A. Eutrophication. 2 3 Q. Okay. 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 '800'888'DEPO * HARTOLDMON0034769 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 15 1 A. That's the nutrient inflow into 2 bodies of water, excessive nutrient inflow 3 of nitrogen phosphorus. 4 Q. Like chicken plants? 5 A. That didn't deal with the source, 6 but the characteristics of the body of 7 water, and the body of water happened to be 8 Beaver Reservoir located near Fayetteville. 9 Q. Okay. And the effect of that on 1 0 the ecosystem and -- 1 1 A. Looking at inflow -- looking 1 2 material balances. 13 Q. Right. Have you ever testified 1 4 before Congress? 1 5 A . N o , I have not. 16 Q All right. Have you been asked 1 7 author any legislation or contribute to 1 8 any legislation in Congress? 1 9 A . No . 20 Q. Okay. Have you ever acted as a 2 1 consultant to the Environmental Protection 2 2 Agency? 2 3 A . No . 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 '800'888-DEPO L/ HARTOLDMON0034770 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 16 1 Q. Okay. Have you ever prepared any 2 position statements on behalf of Monsanto 3 in that respect? 4 A . No. 5 Q. Okay. So you haven't worked on 6 any task force or anything of that nature 7 as far as any legislationis concerned that 8 might affect Monsanto? 9 A. That's correct, I have not. 1 0 Q. At any state level, have you ever 1 1 testified before any committees or any 1 2 agencies regarding legislative matters? 1 3 A . No . 14 Q. Okay. Have you given other 1 5 deposition testimony in lawsuits? 1 6 A. Yes, I have. 17 Q. Okay. Can you tell me what those 1 8 are or -- 19 A. The first caseinvolved, and this 2 0 was many years ago, in the 1970's, the 2 1 Sturgeon, Missouri lawsuit against 2 2 Monsanto. 2 3 Q. That's a city. Sturgeon, 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 '800-888-DEPO " HARTOLDMON0034771 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 17 1 Missouri? 2 A. That ' s correct. 3 Q. Okay. What was the nature of 4 that lawsuit? 5 A. It's ray understanding that 6 involved the spill of material from a tank 7 car of a chlorophenol by-product. 8 Q. Was the city alleging damage to 9 its physical property? 1 0 A. I never read the complaint. 11 Q. Okay. What capacity did you 1 2 testify, as an expert for Monsanto or were 1 3 you a fact witness as to what actually 1 4 happened? 1 5 A . I was a fact witness. 1 6 Q Okay. 1 7 A . But the testimony did not 1 8 surround the actual incident. 1 9 Q. Would have been more of a 2 0 procedures and Monsanto guidelines and that 2 1 type of thing with respect to spills or 2 2 avoiding spills? 2 3 A. It dealt with industrial hygiene 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888'DEPO " HARTOLDMON0034772 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 18 1 practices. 2 Q Okay. Did you testify in court 3 in that case or just by deposition? 4 A . Deposition. 5 Q . Did the case proceed to court, if 6 you are aware? 7 A . Yes, it did. 8 Q What county was that in? 9 A . I'm afraid I don 't know. 1 0 Q Sturgeon, as i n the fish though? 11 A . That's corre I'm not sure of 1 2 the spelling. 13 Q. Okay. Any other cases? 1 4 A. I gave deposition testimony in 1 5 litigation that was called the 1 6 Environmental Insurance Litigation. 1 7 Q. Was Monsanto a defendant in that 18 case? 1 9 A. Quite frankly, I'm not sure. 20 Q. Okay. Was the plaintiff 2 1 Environment Insurance, or was this just a 2 2 consortium of potential defendants who were 2 3 trying to seek coverage under some kind of 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888'DEPO L* HARTOLDMON0034773 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 19 1 environmental insurance? 2 A. I believe that's correct As I 3 understand -- 4 Q. Dealing with closure? 5 A. -- it involved Monsanto Company 6 and insurance companies regarding 7 environmental liabilities. 8 Q. Okay. And was this a guestion of 9 whether coverage had been denied or whether 1 0 coverage existed? 1 1 A. I don't know that detail. 1 2 Q. Was that in St. Louis? 1 3 A . No. 1 4 Q. Where would that have been? 1 5 A. Wilmington, Delaware. 1 6 Q. And what year was that? 1 7 A. I believe that was the late 18 '80 ' s . 1 9 Q. And that was by. deposition only? 20 2 1 Q. Do you know the outcome of that 22 case? 2 3 A. No, I don't. 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 '800-888'DEPO LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034774 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 1 Q. Okay. Was this the subject of 2 some type of environmental incident that 3 this company had refused coverage on? Was 4 that the nature of this lawsuit? 5 A . I don't know. 6 Q. Okay. Was it in Federal Court? 7 A. I believe it was, but I'm not 8 positive . 9 Q. Do you know the outcome? 1 0 A. No, I don't. 11 Q. Any other depositions? Let me 1 2 ask you this one more question about 13 environmental insurance: Do you know the 1 4 individual insurance companies that might 1 5 have been part of this consortium? 1 6 A. I may have seen the names at one 1 7 time because I -- 1 8 Q. Was it Aetna, perhaps? 1 9 A. I don't even -- I don't 2 0 remember. 2 1 Q. Well, do you have in possession 2 2 any of the pleadings or your deposition 2 3 notice or anything of that nature with 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 '800-888'DEPO HARTOLDMON0034775 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 1 respect to this? 2 A . No . 3 Q. Okay. Who defended you or 4 Monsanto in this lawsuit? 5 A . I don't recall the counsel or -- 6 Q Do you know were they're located? 7 A . -- the law firm. 8 Q Do you remember where they were 9 located? 1 0 A . The law firm was in Wilmington, 1 1 Delaware . 12 Q Okay. And then next time you 1 3 gave a deposition? 1 4 A . I'm not sure whether it's the 1 5 next time. 1 6 Q Okay. 1 7 A . Because I'm not so sure I can 1 8 in chronological order. 19 Q. Okay. 2 0 A. There were two depositions I 21 recall that dealt with asbestos. One was 2 2 -- I think the caption Stanley versus 2 3 Monsanto. 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1-800-888-DEPO LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034776 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 22 1 Q. Where was that located? 2 A. I believe Stanley versus Monsanto 3 was out of New Orleans. 4 Q. Do y'all have a facility in New 5 Orleans? 6 A. We have a facility outside of New 7 Orleans, at Luling, Louisiana. 8 Q. Luling? 9 A. Yes. 1 0 Q. Did you use asbestos as an 1 1 insulating device at that plant? Is that 1 2 the nature of this lawsuit? 1 3 A. We have in the past, correct. 14 Q. Okay. Is that how this arose, 1 5 was a claim saying he was exposed to 1 6 asbestos as a result of that? 1 7 A. I believe so. 18 Q. Okay. And your testimony was 1 9 with respect to industrial hygiene at that 20 plant? 2 1 A. Correct. 22 Q. Okay. Anything else? 2 3 A. The other asbestos case I 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888'DEPO HARTOLDMON0034777 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 23 1 mentioned was in California, and it 2 involved I believe our Avon, California 3 site. 4 Q. Same general set of 5 circumstances? 6 A. Similar. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. I was involved in or I gave 9 deposition testimony in a benzene case. 1 0 That case was captionedSkeen versus 1 1 Monsanto . 1 2 Q. S-K-I-N-G? 1 3 A. S-K-E-E-N. 14 Q. Okay. Where was that? 1 5 A. Houston, Texas. 1 6 Q. Y ' all don't manufacture or didn't 1 7 manufacture benzene anywhere; did you? 1 8 A. We were an internal producer of 1 9 benzene at a plant in Chocolate Bayou, 2 0 Alton, Texas. 21 Q. Internal producer. That was the 2 2 basic element, I guess, for phenolic resins 2 3 and y'all produced phenolic resins? 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888-DEPO " HARTOLDMON0034778 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 24 1 A . We used that material in other 2 processes 3 Q. Okay. What was the primary 4 product of Chocolate Bayou? Was that a 5 herbicide plant? 6 A. You mean involving -- 7 Q. Commercial product? 8 A. -- this particular case or -- 9 Q. No. Didn't Anniston manufacture 1 0 parathion? Wasn't that one of their big 1 1 products for a long time? 1 2 A. Anniston manufactured parathion; 13 correct. 1 4 Q.I know they may havemanufactured 1 5 other things, but the primary product was 1 6 parathion; right? 1 7 A. Parathion, to the best of my 1 8 knowledge, was perhaps the biggest unit. 19 Q. Right. What was the biggest unit 2 0 at Chocolate Bayou? 2 1 A. Biggest unit was probably the 2 2 ethylene hydrocarbons complex. 2 3 Q. Ethylene hydrocarbons? 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 '800-888'DEPO LASER PR1NTED HARTOLDMON0034779 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 25 1 A. Correct. And I think those may 2 have been two processes where you had an 3 ethylene unit and then you had a 4 hydrocarbons unit. 5 Q. Okay. So you were just cracking 6 ethylene basically. There was no end 7 product, these were all intermediary 8 products that would be used at another 9 facility? 1 0 A. Correct. 11 Q. Okay. Was this Mr. Skeen 1 2 claiming that he contracted cancer as a 1 3 result of exposure of benzene there at the 14 plant? 1 5 A. As I recall, I think that was a 1 6 wrongful death suit and I think the issue 1 7 was some type of cancer. 18 Q. Okay. You all no longer 1 9 manufacture benzene as an internal product; 20 do you? 2 1 A . No . 22 Q. Okay. And I assume you took the 2 3 position in that case that benzene was not 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 '800'888'DEPO LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034780 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 26 1 a carcinogen; is that correct? 2 MR. COX; Him personally or 3 Monsanto? 4 A. I'm not sure what position we 5 took. 6 Q. Okay. Anything else? 7 A. There was a recent benzene case 8 that I gave deposition testimony in. That 9 was captioned Tarin, T-A-R-I-N, versus 1 0 Monsanto. 1 1 Q. Where was that? 1 2 A. Excuse me? 1 3 Q. Where was that? 14 A. Houston. Houston,Texas. 15 Q. Okay. Same plant, Chocolate 1 6 Bayou plant? 1 7 A. I'm trying to recall whether it 1 8 was the Chocolate Bayou plant or the Texas 1 9 City plant. 2 0 Q. Did they pretty much do the same 2 1 thing? 2 2 A. No, not really. 23 Q. What does Texas City -- 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888-DEPO LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034781 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 27 1 A. Both would have used benzene. It 2 was the Texas City plant. 3 Q. Okay. Was that a wrongful death 4 case or an exposure case, as well? 5 A. That was a wrongful death case. 6 Q. When did you give that 7 deposition? 8 A. Last Friday. 9 Q. Oh, really. Whatwas the outcome 1 0 of the Skeen case, if you know? 11 A. I don't. 1 2 Q. Okay. How long ago did you give 1 3 that deposition? 1 4 A. The Skeen deposition? 15 Q. Yes. 1 6 A. Early 1980's. 1 7 Q. Do you recall who the plaintiff's 1 8 counsel is in the Tearin -- that's 1 9 T -- E-A-R-I--N? 2 0 A . T-A-R-I-N . 2 1 Q. Do you recall who the plaintiff's 2 2 counsel is in that case, who represents the 2 3 estate of Tarin? 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 '800-888-DEPO " HARTOLDMON0034782 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 1 A. No, I don't. 2 Q. That would be in -- is it Houston 3 County; is that the -- 4 A. The deposition was in Houston, 5 Texas . 6 Q . Okay. 7 A. I'm not sure I know -- 8 Q. Is that in Federal Court or State 9 Court? 1 0 A. I think it's in StateCourt. 11 Q. Okay. Any other depositions? 1 2 A. There was a deposition in a case 1 3 in St. Louis, and as best I can remember, 1 4 it involved workers' compensation. 1 5 Q. Did it involve exposure to any 1 6 type of chemicals? 1 7 A. It involved exposure to a variety 1 8 of chemicals in a laboratory and at one of 1 9 the plants. 20 Q. Do youremember the plaintiff's 21 name? 22 A. The John F. Queeny plant. 23 Q. Queeny. That's the plaintiff's 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 '800-888'DEPO ... HARTOLDMON0034783 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS ___________________________________________________________29 1 name? 2 A. No, that was the plant. 3 Q. Do you remember the plaintiff's 4 name, though? 5 A . No, I don' t . 6 Q About what year was this? 7 A . About two years ago. 8 Q Okay. Any other depositions? 9 A . Those are the only ones I 1 0 recall . 11 Q. Okay, Have you given any 1 2 testimony in any case regarding 1 3 biphenyls? 1 4 A . No . 15 Q. Okay. Have you ever offered any 1 6 testimony to any type of municipal 1 7 regulatory authority, state or federal 1 8 authority regarding 1 9 biphenyls? 2 0 A . No. 21 Q. Okay. Have you yourself ever 2 2 performed any tests or published the 2 3 results of any tests regarding 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1-800-888.-DEPO LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034784 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 30 1 polychlorinated biphenyls, other than soil 2 samples and things of that nature? 3 A . No. 4 Q. Okay. When did you first visit 5 the Anniston plant? 6 A. I believe it was approximately 7 1973. It may have been 1974. 8 Q. Okay. And what was the purpose 9 of your visit? At that time you were an 1 0 industrial hygienist with -- you were 1 1 corporate manager of industrial hygiene? 1 2 A. Well, at that time, I was an 1 3 industrial hygienist, one of two field 14 industrial hygienists. I had corporate 1 5 responsibility for several of the operating 1 6 units, one of which included the Anniston 17 plant. I was there for kind of a liaison 1 8 between a number of the plants and our 1 9 corporate disciplines. And as I recall, I 2 0 went to the Anniston facility just to gain 2 1 an understanding of who the people were, 2 2 what type of processes they had at that 2 3 facility and the status of the industrial 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -80O888'DEPO LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034785 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 1 hygiene programs. 2 Q. Okay. Who was the manager of 3 that plant? Would it have been Mr. 4 Severson at that time? 5 A. Idon't recognize that -- the 6 name Severson. It may have been Gene 7 Jesse . 8 Q. Okay. And was this during the 9 period of time when they were manufacturing 1 0 parathion in Anniston? 1 1 A. I believe they were manufacturing 1 2 parathion at that time. 1 3 Q. Okay. And were you aware of the 1 4 presence of PCBs during your visit in 1973? 15 MR. COX: Object to the form. 1 6 Q. Meaning PCBs either being used on 1 7 the property, manufactured on the property 1 8 or stored on the property? 1 9 A. As I recall, when I first went 2 0 into that plant, I was shown where the PCB 2 1 facility used to be located. 22 Q. Okay. Where was that, if you 2 3 recall? 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1-800-888-DEPO LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034786 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS ______________ 32 1 A. Inside the plant? 2 Q. Yes. I mean, if you can recall, 3 just in what corner or where 4 geographically, northeast corner, northwest 5 corner. Was it in -- 6 A. Seemslike it was in the center 7 south section of the plant. 8 Q. Okay. That unit was not in 9 service in 1973; is that correct? 1 0 A. That unit was not even in 1 1 existence. 1 2 Q. Okay. When had it been 1 3 dismantled or discontinued? When did the 1 4 manufacture discontinue, if you recall? 1 5 A. It was prior to my visiting that 16 facility. As I understand, it's 1971. 1 7 Q. Okay. And then they dismantled 1 8 the process unit entirely? 1 9 A. By the time I was on site they 2 0 had , yes . 2 1 Q. Okay. Why was PCBs -- why were 2 2 they manufactured there, what use, if you 2 3 know, did Monsanto have for PCBs? I mean, 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800'888-DFPD LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034787 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 1 were they placed directly in the market as 2 a cooling agent? 3 A. Well, I've got ageneral 4 knowledge. 5 Q . Right. 6 A. And I'm not so sure at that 7 particular point in time I had or I gained 8 knowledge of exactly what PCBs were used 9 for because I had no reason"to inquire on 10 that. 1 1 Q. All right. 1 2 A. But my general knowledge is, yes, 1 3 PCBs --various mixtures of PCBs under the 1 4 trade name Aroclor were used for many 1 5 years, principally in the ------ as electric -- 1 6 or in electrical capacitors and 17 1 8 Q . Heat transformations? 1 9 A . Correct. 20 Q Okay. What was the brand 2 1 product name? 2 2 A . Aroclor. 2 3 Q A- I-R? 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 '800-888'DEPO " HARTOLDMON0034788 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS ______________________________________________________________34 1 A. A-R-O-C-L-O-R. 2 Q. And that was a Monsanto brand 3 name? 4 5 Q. Had you learned anything at all 6 prior to your visit there in 1973, of any 7 potential hazards associated with PCBs? 8 Had you read anything in the literature 9 regarding PCBs and whether or not they were 1 0 at that point considered -- 11 MR. COX: He wants you to put 1 2 yourself back in 1973, not what you've 1 3 learned since then, is theway I understand 1 4 your guestion. 15 THE WITNESS: Correct. 1 6 A . Not that I recall. 17 Q Okay. When did you first come to 1 8 learn of a potential hazard regarding PCBs? 1 9 A . It would have been some time 2 0 between -- oh, I would think somewhere 2 1 between 1972 to '75. 2 2 Q . You made a visit to the plant in 2 3 '73. 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0034789 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 35 1 A . I visited the plant in ' 73 . 2 Q Had some knowledge then o f 3 potential hazard of PCBs? 4 A . From the standpoint of that 5 plant? 6 Q . No, no, no. Generally. 7 A . I may have had some knowledge 8 just from the standpoint of visiting or 9 touring a nother plant site. 10 Q Okay. Well, do you know why 1 1 Monsanto discontinued producing PCBs in 1 2 19 7 1? 1 3 A. Personally, no. 1 4 Q. You don't know whether or not it 1 5 had anything to do with any action taken on 16 behalf of the EPA? I'm not talking about 1 7 with respect to that one plant, I'm talking 1 8 about whether PCBs -- or NIOSH or any 1 9 Federal agency, whether or not PCBs had 2 0 been categorized as a carcinogen? 2 1 A. From the standpoint of my 2 2 knowledge then or from -- 2 3 Q. What you knew then? 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888-DFPO LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034790 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 36 1 A. -- or in thecontext of my 2 knowledge now? 3 Q. What you knew -- both, I 4 suppose. I mean, when you were at the 5 plant in 1973, did they make you aware of 6 why they had discontinued manufacturing 7 PCBs? I mean you were -- 8 A. No, I don't believe so. 9 Q. Okay. You were an industrial 1 0 hygienist? 1 1 A. Correct. 1 2 Q. You were, I guess, deemed to be 1 3 aware of potential hazardous situations 1 4 within the Monsanto plant environment? 15 A. Yes. Generally, yes. 1 6 Q. But you had no knowledge of any 1 7 problems associated with PCBs at that time? 1 8 A. I don't believe so. 1 9 Q. So you say then between 1972 and 2 0 1975, you began to learnabout published or 2 1 alleged hazards associated with PCBs? 22 MR. COX: Object to the form. 2 3 A. I became more knowledgeable of 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 '800-888-DF.PO LA HARTOLDMON0034791 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 37 1 the characteristics and any potential 2 health hazards associated with PCBs. 3 Q. Okay. And did you -- did 4 Monsanto ask you to do any specific work 5 with respect to PCBs during this period of 6 time? 7 A . No . 8 Q. Okay. Were you asked to conduct 9 any research ordo a literature search or 1 0 anything of that nature? 1 1 A . No . 12 Q. Okay. Did Monsanto, if you know, 1 3 develop any type of task force internally 1 4 to deal with what may have been termed a 1 5 PCB problem or potential PCB problem? 1 6 A. Personally, I am not aware of 17 that. 18 Q. Okay. As we sit here today, are 1 9 you aware of anything of that they may have 2 0 formed to -- or organized to deal with 21 them? 2 2 A. It's my understanding there may 2 3 have been a task force that was formed at 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888-DEPO L/ HARTOLDMON0034792 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 38 1 one time in the past. 2 Q. That would have been in St. 3 Louis? 4 A . Correct . 5 Q Do you know who the members of 6 force might have been? 7 A . No , I don't. 8 Q Do you know anybody that would 9 know? I mean, would it have had anything 1 0 to do with your department? 1 1 A. There may have been one gentleman 12 that was a part of that task force. He was 1 3 the manager of -- I think at that time the 14 manager of environmental health. He has 1 5 since passed away. 1 6 Q What was his name? 1 7 A . Elmer Wheeler. 1 8 Q What year would that have been? 19 MR . COX : When he passed away 2 0 h e was on this committee? 2 1 Q When this committee was formed. 2 2 A . Well, I guess I started -- I 2 3 prefaced my remarks by saying it's my 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1-800'888-DFPD LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034793 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 39 1 general understanding that there was a task 2 force. 3 Q. Right. 4 A. From thestandpoint of when, 5 specifically when such a task force may 6 have been formed, I don't know. 7 Q. Well, when did Mr. Wheeler die? 8 A. I believe Mr. Wheeler died in the 9 late 1970's. 1 0 Q. Okay. 11 A. Late 1970's or, perhaps, the very 1 2 early 1 9 8 0 ' s . 13 Q. Okay. And he was the manager of 1 4 environmental health? 1 5 A. I believe he at that time was 1 6 manager of environmental health. 17 Q. Now, you were in industrial 1 8 hygiene at that time? 19 2 0 Q. What was the relationshipbetween 2 1 environmental health and your department? 2 2 A. I reported to themanager at that 2 3 time of pollution control and industrial 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888-DKPO ^HUOTED! HARTOLD MON6034794 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS ____________________________________________________40 1 hygiene Jack Garrett. 2 Q . Is he still with Monsanto? 3 A . No . - 4 Q Where is he now? 5 A . He's retired. 6 Q Where does he live? 7 A . I'm not sure he still lives 8 Louis . At one time he lived in St 9 Louis, but I think he may have moved. 1 0 Q. Do you know where he may have 1 1 moved to? 1 2 A. No, I don't. 1 3 Q. And he was the manager of 1 4 environmental health; is that right? 1 5 A. He was the -- are we talking 1 6 about Mr. Garrett? 1 7 Q. Yes. 1 8 A. He was the manager of -- manager 1 9 of pollution control and industrial 2 0 hygiene . 21 Q. Okay. And that was your 22 23 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1-800-88S-DKPO " HARTOLDMON0034795 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 41 1 Q. -- during that period of time 2 from 1971 to '81? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. Okay. Now, what was the 5 relationship between that department and 6 the department Mr. Wheeler was in? 7 A. Mr. Garrett, as I recall, 8 reported to Mr. Wheeler. 9 Q. Could Mr. Garrett have been on 1 0 this task force? 11 MR. COX : I f you know. 1 2 A . I don't know. 1 3 Q Well, I mean, it seems logical 1 4 i t would be - - it would have been made 1 5 up of various environmental entities, which 1 6 would have included yours, industrial 1 7 hygiene, pollution control as well as 18 environmental health. Would you agree with 1 9 that, that would be the logical team of 2 0 individuals from which to compose a team? 21 A. That would be a possibility. But 2 2 to answer any further would just be a 23 guess. 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888-DEPO " HARTOLDMON0034796 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 42 1 Q. Any other departments within 2 Monsanto that you think might have had 3 individuals contributing to this task 4 force? 5 A. I don't specifically know. 6 Q. When did you first learn of this 7 task force? 8 A. I don't know if there was any 9 particular year or any particular point in 10 time. It's just my understanding that 11 there was some type of a task force. When 1 2 I gained an understanding of that, I'm not 1 3 sure. 1 4 Q - Well, I mean, Mr. Wheeler died in 1 5 late ' 7 0 ' s . 1 6 A . Late ' 7 0 ' s, early ' 8 0 ' s . 17 Q Okay. Did you know of it while 1 8 it existed? Obviously, Mr. Wheeler, if he 1 9 had been a party of it, would have been on 2 0 this task force during the '70's. 21 A. No. While it existed during 2 2 those times, no, I wasn't aware. 2 3 Q. Have you ever read or seen the 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -'800'888-DFPD LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034797 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 43 1 results of any of their work, any 2 recommendations that they made? 3 A. No, not that I recall. 4 Q. So the only persons that you know 5 could have been, possibly Mr. Garrett and 6 Mr. Wheeler for sure? 7 A. Well, I think I mentioned Mr. 8 Wheeler. Mr. Garrett, I don't know. 9 Q. Were there any other 1 0 departments -- tell me the other 1 1 departments that might have been associated 1 2 with environmental hazards, pollution 1 3 hazards? 1 4 A. Well, at the corporate level, 1 5 there was the department of medicine and 1 6 environmental health. 1 7 Q. Who was head of that department 1 8 during that time? 1 9 A. During that time -- 20 MR. COX: You're talking 2 1 about -- just so the record is clear, 2 2 you're talking about the early 1970 ' s? 23 MR. HOLLINGSWORTH: Well, no. 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 '800-888'DEPO LA HARTOLDMON0034798 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 44 1 The period of 1970 through 1980, when this 2 task force might have existed. 3 MR. COX: Well, I don't want to 4 be cute, but I'm not sure that the task 5 force existed much beyond 1973 or '74. 6 Q. You understand what I'm saying, 7 don't you? 8 A. Well, what you're asking is who 9 was the medical department during that time 1 0 frame . 1 1 Q. Right. 1 2 A. The director of what we call 1 3 DMEH, all caps, from when I came into the 1 4 department in 1971, until 1974, was Doctor 1 5 Emmett Kelly. 1 6 Q. Is he still alive or is he still 1 7 associated with Monsanto? 1 8 A. No, Doctor Kelly is deceased. 19 Q. Okay. Did he have a secretary or 2 0 anybody acting under him, associate 2 1 director? 2 2 A. There was an assistant medical 2 3 director who left Monsanto and went with 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -SOO--888-T7RPO ................ LASER PR.NTED_______ ........ ........ ...... HARTOLDMON0034799 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 45 1 another company, and I can't recall what 2 his name was. 3 Q. Okay. Anybody else in that 4 department? 5 A. His name was Maury Johnson. 6 Doctor Johnson. 7 Q. Maury. He was a medical doctor? 8 A . Correct 9 Q And he left Monsanto? 1 0 A . Left Monsanto. 1 1 Q - About what year? 1 2 A . I think the mid 1970' s . 1 3 Q Do you know where he went? 14 A. He went with another company. I 1 5 think it may have been Goodyear 1 6 Q Anybody else in that depa rtment 1 7 that might possibly have been o n this task 18 force? I ' m just asking. I know you have 1 9 testified that you don't know o f anybody 20 else. But _ _ 2 1 A. Within the department, and it was 2 2 a relatively small department at the time, 2 3 I don't -- no one else comes to mind. 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 '800-888-DEPO LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034800 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 46 1 Q. Okay. In addition to your group, 2 industrial hygienist, pollution control, 3 which Mr. Wheeler was a part of, and DMEH, 4 is there any other potential group that may 5 have contributed to this task force? 6 A. There was a corporate staff group 7 called CED, central engineering 8 department. As I recall, within CED, there 9 were some environmental engineering type 1 0 people . 1 1 Q. Do you recall who the head of 1 2 that department wa s during this period of 1 3 time. early '70' s and late '70' s ? 1 4 A . No , I don't. 1 5 Q. Anybody in that department at all 1 6 that you recall? 1 7 A. I'm sorry, no names come to 1 8 mind. 19 Q. Okay. Are there any other 2 0 departments that you think may have 2 1 possibly contributed to this task force? 2 2 A. We had several operating units. 2 3 And I'm not sure -- we've been through a 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 '800-888-TTRPO LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034801 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 47 1 number of reorganizationa 1 changes through 2 the years. But there would have been 3 manufacturing divisions or manufacturing 4 operating units. As a part of those 5 operating units, I believe they may have 6 had some people that were in charge of 7 environmental related matters. 8 Q. When you say operating unit, do 9 you mean Anniston as an example, or do you 10 mean -- 1 1 A. No, Anniston would have been a 12 part of an operating unit. For example, 1 3 you can have an inorganics division, you 1 4 can have an organics division, an 1 5 industrial chemicals group. 1 6 Q. Okay. So that would be a unit? 1 7 A. That's what I would call an 18 operating unit oran operating group. 1 9 Q. Was Anniston a part of the 2 0 agricultural unit at that time? 2 1 A. I don't believe so. 2 2 Q. What unit would they have been a 2 3 part of? 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1^800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0034802 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 48 1 A . At one time we had an organics 2 division, organics company. I believe they 3 may have been a part of that. 4 Q Do you know who the head of that 5 division was? 6 A . No , I do not. 7 Q. Before Anniston became Solutia, 8 what division were they a part of or what 9 unit were they part of? Were they still 1 0 organics? 1 1 A. No, there had been a number of 1 2 organizational changes. 1 3 Q. Since that time? 1 4 A. When the parathion unit was 1 5 discontinued, they reverted from a -- from 1 6 the agricultural group to the chemical 17 group. The chemical group consisted of a 1 8 number of divisions, one of which was a 1 9 specialty chemicals or specialty fluids. So 2 0 I think it may have been that group that 2 1 they were a part of. 2 2 Q. When did they discontinue the 2 3 parathion production? 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800'888-DFPO LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034803 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS ,,,, 49 1 A. I believe it was somewhere around 2 1 9 8 5. 3 Q. Did you all sell that product 4 label? 5 A. I am not sure . 6 Q. Parathion is a herbicide; is that 7 right? 8 A. It's an insecticide. 9 Q. Insecticide. Now, we got to your 1 0 first visit to Anniston. Okay? 1 1 A. Okay. 1 2 Q. I'm sure you've, been there plenty 1 3 times since then. 1 4 When was the first time you -- 1 5 to cut to the chase, when was the first 1 6 time you visited Anniston with regard to 1 7 any problems associated with 1 8 polychlorinated biphenyls, and not 1 9 necessarily legislation, but on-site 2 0 problems or potential problems, anything 2 1 dealing with -- when is the first time you 2 2 went to Anniston to deal with any PCB 2 3 issues at all? 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800.888-.nFPO L/ HARTOLDMON0034804 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 50 1 A. The first time I went to Anniston 2 in the context of remediation projects or 3 remediation activities associated with PCBs 4 was approximately November of 1995. 5 Q. Let me just ask you quickly: Are 6 there any other plants that Monsanto owns 7 or operates that have PCBs o n site whether 8 they manufacture them or they store them, 9 that you're aware o r have been aware of? 1 0 A. Are we talking about currently or 1 1 what time frame? 1 2 Q. Well, at any time that you are 13 aware of. In other words -- well, let's 1 4 say in the mid '70's, were there other 1 5 plants other than the Anniston where the 1 6 PCBs were located? 1 7 A. Yes. .. 1 8 Q. Where were those plants? 1 9 A. We had a producing facility in 20 Sauget, Illinois. The plant was the W. G. 2 1 Grumrick. 2 2 Q. Grumrick? 2 3 A. Grumrick. 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800'888-DEPO LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034805 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 51 1 Q. Okay. Manufactured PCBs -- 2 MR. COX: You're-not including 3 in there manufacturing facilities that may 4 have had PCBs transformers on site, are 5 you? 6 MR. HOLLINGSWORTH: No. 7 Q. Any other plants? 8 A. Well, if we are excluding any 9 plants that may have had PCBs as a part of 1 0 electrical transformers, capacitors, no. 1 1 Q. Any other plants where they were 1 2 stored in any other vessels other than 13 transformers or capacitors? In other 1 4 words, were there any landfills on any 1 5 other plants sites that may have taken 1 6 PCBs ? 1 7 A . Not that I'm aware of. 1 8 Q What was the occasion for you do 1 9 come t o Anniston -- well, let me ask you 20 this : Had you gone to -- is it the W. G. 2 1 Grumrick ? 2 2 A . Grumrick plant . 2 3 Q Have you visited that site -- 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 "800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0034806 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 52 1 A. Yes, Ihave. 2 Q. -- with respect to remedial 3 activities? 4 A . No . 5 Q. Okay. What was the nature of 6 your visit there? 7 A. In the context of assessing 8 general industrial hygiene practices at the 9 plant, assisting the plant in their 1 0 industrial hygiene program. 1 1 Q. They don't still manufacture PCBs 12 there? 1 3 A. That's correct, they do not. 1 4 Q. When did they discontinue that? 1 5 Early '70's? 1 6 A. I believe the time frame 1976. 17 Q. Okay. 1 8 A. Somewhere in that time frame. 1 9 Q. How do you spell the name of that 2 0 city again? 2 1 A. Sauget? 2 2 Q . Yes. 2 3 A. It's a very good question. 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 '800-888'DEPO " HARTOLDMON0034807 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 53 1 Q. I think I'll just -- 2 A. S-A-U-G - - 3 MR. COX: E-T. 4 A. -- E-T. 5 Q. Yeah, E-T-T. And that's -- 6 MR. COX: They changed the name 7 from Monsanto, Illinois, too, by the way. 8 Q. That's in Illinois? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. Okay. Is there anylitigation 1 1 ongoing or has there been any litigation 1 2 ongoing at that facility that you're aware 1 3 of regarding PCBs? 1 4 A. Not that I'm aware of. 15 Q. Okay. Is there a landfill at 1 6 that facility that may store PCBs? 1 7 A. I don't know personally. 1 8 Q. Your visits there have not had 1 9 anything to do at all with any remedial 2 0 activities regarding PCBs? 2 1 A. That's correct. 22 Q. Okay. Now, under what set of 2 3 circumstances did you come in November of 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1-800-888-DEPO " HARTOLDMON0034808 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS ______________________________________________________________54 1 1995, regarding remedial activities at 2 Anniston? Had a lawsuit been filed at that 3 point in time? I mean, what triggered 4 your -- 5 A. I'm not sure. . 6 Q. Okay. Would you have gone at the 7 direction of s o m e b o d y else? 8 A . Yes, I was asked to go by my 9 boss. 1 0 Q . Who at the time was Mr. Garrett? 11 A. No . We're talking about -- 1 2 Q - ' 8 5 -- '95. 1 3 A . -- i n '95. 14 Q That 's right. Who would that 1 5 have been? 1 6 A. Doctor Bob Kaley. 1 7 Q. Kaley with a "K" ? 1 8 A . K-A -L-E - Y . 1 9 Q And w h a t did Doctor Kaley tell 2 0 you about the Ann i s t o n plant? 2 1 A . I n the context of my visit 7 2 2 Q . Yes 2 3 A . Bob had been talking with some 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888-DFPO LA HARTOLDMON0034809 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 55 1 the people in our public relations group, 2 and they were looking at the possibility of 3 eventually, perhaps, setting up a community 4 advisory panel at Anniston as we've set up 5 in a number of our other plants; also, they 6 had at Anniston recently published a 7 brochure explaining a little bit about the 8 plant, the product. 9 Q. Community relations group had? 10 A. Correct. And they werelooking 1 1 at the possibility of advancing a community 1 2 outreach program. 1 3 Q. Had the problems at Mars Hill 1 4 Baptist Church surfaced at this point in 1 5 time, in November of '95? 16 A. Not that I'm aware of. 17 Q. Okay. There weren't any 1 8 community problems as far as -- that you're 1 9 aware of? 2 0 A That's 21 Q. Okay. That's something you were 2 2 trying to head off, I assume? 2 3 A. Well, I think that -- 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 '800-888-DEPO " HARTOLDMON0034810 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 56 1 Q. I mean, from an educational 2 standpoint? 3 A. I'm not sure that's true. 4 Q. Okay. All right. Doctor Kaley 5 had talked tot he public relations group 6 about some community awareness of what the 7 plant actually did and that type of thing. 8 What was your ro1e in that? 9 A. The thought was that I might be a 1 0 person that, perhaps, could go around and 1 1 meet with some of the individual neighbors, 1 2 discuss plant operations, make them aware 1 3 of the type of products and processes that 1 4 we had at that particular plant and just 1 5 represent kind of a focal point if they had 1 6 any further guestions on that particular 1 7 facility. 1 8 Q. Were you to speak to them 1 9 specifically about the presence of PCBs in 2 0 that plant and the fact that they had been 2 1 manufactured at that facility? 2 2 A . No . 2 3 Q. So you were just basically going 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888'DEPO LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034811 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 57 1 to talk to them about what thatplant did 2 and how they did it and what type of 3 productsthey manufactured there? 4 A. Correct, who we were. 5 Q. And you were not specifically 6 authorized to discuss PCBs in any manner 7 whatsoever? 8 A. I'm not so sure that that term 9 avoidance really came up in those 1 0 discussions -- 1 1 Q. No, that wasn't -- 1 2 A. -- at that time. 1 3 Q. -- the purpose of your trip -- I 14 mean,that wasn't the purpose ofyour 1 5 public relations effort. was not to deal 1 6 with the PCBs issue; was i t ? 1 7 A . It was not what w e were -- that's 1 8 exactly right. 1 9 Q. In fact, it hadn't even been 2 0 discussed really; had it? 2 1 A. That'sright. 2 2 Q. Because it really wasn't a 2 3 problem as far as the community was 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888-DFPO LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034812 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 58 1 concerned at that time; isn't that correct? 2 A. That would be a pure guess or 3 speculation on my part. 4 Q. And did you, in fact, meet with 5 various members of the community and 6 property owners around the site, around the 7 manufacturing facility? 8 A. At that time? 9 Q. Yes . 1 0 A . No. 1 1 Q. What did you do? 1 2 A. Met with some of the plant 1 3 people, met with some of the people 1 4 involved in the purchase property program 1 5 that was underway. 16 Q. Okay. Now, at this point in time 1 7 the purchase property program was already 1 8 underway? 1 9 A . I believe s o . 20 Q Okay. And why would Monsanto 2 1 have been purchasing property in and a round 2 2 that area ? 2 3 A . That was a part of the east side 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888'DEPO * HARTOLDMON0034813 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 59 1 purchase property program that had 2 started -- 3 Q. East side? 4 A. The east side. East side 5 property purchase program that had been 6 started prior to me coming there and 7 visiting on site. 8 Q. What was the purpose of the east 9 side property purchase program? Why did 1 0 Monsanto want to purchase property on the 1 1 eastside? . 1 2 A. You mean from the standpoint of 1 3 my knowledge when I came on site or -- 14 Q. Well, either. What do you know 1 5 now or what you knew then? 1 6 A. Well, I think that PCBs had been 1 7 detected in a drainage system, a ditch 1 8 leading from a portion of our property on 19 the east side of the plant. There had been 2 0 a lot of soil sampling and sediment 2 1 sampling taken in and adjacent that ditch. 22 There were levels of PCBsdetected in soils 2 3 and settlement and they were looking at the 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888-DFPD LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034814 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 60 1 remediation project that would be necessary 2 in that particular area. 3 Q. Okay. But you weren't aware of 4 that when you went there in November of 5 '95? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. And youthought basically you 8 were just going to go down there to meet 9 with folks about disseminating information 1 0 in the community regarding what Monsanto 11 did there at that location? 1 2 A. At that time, I'm not so sure 13 that that plant had been that firm. That's 14 something that had beendiscussed. I went 1 5 down there to familiarize myself again with 1 6 the Anniston area, the plant operations, 1 7 the general locale. 1 8 Q. Well, were you informedat that 1 9 time of the existence of the east side 2 0 property purchase property? 2 1 A. I may have been aware of it. 2 2 Q. But you didn't know why they were 2 3 doing it? 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888-DFPO LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034815 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 61 1 A. But I was not aware of all the 2 details, that's correct. 3 Q. And just to reiterate, you had -- 4 no one had specifically mentioned PCBs or a 5 PCB problemduring your visit inNovember 6 0f 1995? 7 A. During the visit of November of 8 1 9 9 5? 9 Q. Right. When Doctor Kaley had 1 0 asked you to go down and meetthe community 1 1 advisory panel, public relations group, 1 2 representatives . 1 3 A. I believe that when I went on 1 4 site and I met with a number of people just 1 5 to introduce myself to them and find out 1 6 who they were, then I believe that issue, 1 7 that topic certainly did come up. 1 8 Q. But you weren't awareof it until 1 9 you got to the plant? 2 0 A. I may have had prior to then some 2 1 vague understanding of what was occurring, 2 2 but not in any detail at all. 2 3 Q. And you were manager of the 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888-TTRPO LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034816 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 62 1 environmental technical support at that 2 time; is that right? 3 A. At that time, that was my job 4 title, manager of environmental technical 5 support. 6 Q. Did anybody go down there with 7 you from any other departments or from your 8 department in November of '95? 9 A. I went down there with one of the 1 0 ladies that was in the remediation 1 1 management group. 12 Q. What was her name? 1 3 A. Jo, J-0, Hanson. 1 4 Q. Is she still with Monsanto? 1 5 A. No, she retired. 16 Q. Still living in St. Louis? 1 7 A. I think she and her husband have 1 8 bought a residence down in Florida. 1 9 Q. Do you know her husband's name? 20 A. Firstname is Joe. I think it's 2 1 J-0-E . 2 2 Q. I wonder what their -- 2 3 A. Jo and Joe. 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888-DFPD LA HARTOLDMON0034817 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 1 Q. -- license plate says? Jo Joe. 2 And then what basically was the 3 outcome of that visit? 4 A. I think the outcome was I just 5 got more of an appreciation of the plant, 6 the processes manufactured at the plant, 7 some of the people that were at the plant, 8 became a little bit more familiar with the 9 purchase property program, some of the 1 0 remediation efforts. 1 1 Q. The east side property purchase 1 2 program, is that a -- obviously, that's the 1 3 name of a program that's been implemented 1 4 there to purchase property on the east side 1 5 of that plant. 1 6 I s there any type o f document 1 7 that sets out the parameters of this 1 8 program? 19 MR . HOLLINGSWORTH: Buddy, have 2 0 you produced that? 21 MR . COX: Yes, it was the stuff 2 2 yesterday. 23 MR. HOLLINGSWORTH: Oh, was it? 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888-DEPD LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034818 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 64 1 Okay. 2 MR. COX: Or the day before. 3 It's produced, as well as many of the 4 agreements through which we acquired 5 property under that program. 6 Q. With respect to- detection of PCBs 7 in the ditch in that area, who first 8 detected PCBs in that ditch? 9 A. I don't know. 1 0 Q. Was it a State agency? 1 1 A. I don't know that. 12 Q. Okay. After this November '95 1 3 visit, when was the next time for you to -- 1 4 I assume you went back and you reported to 1 5 Doctor Kaley what your findings were, and 1 6 you all formulated some type of plan as to 1 7 what your next visit would entail; is that 18 1 9 A. As I recall, I went back and 2 0 talked with Bob, that, yes, I had gone down 2 1 there and had gained an understanding -- 22 better understanding of the plant. The 2 3 last time I had been to that plant was some 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 '800-888-DEPO LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034819 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 65 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 years prior to that. I don't think -- well, I know there was no specific report, and I'm not so sure that we established any particular plan. Q. No plan as to what you might do -- as to how you might approach residents who had owned property within the east side property purchase program, what you would do, whether you would clean up this property or purchase it? A. Well, I don't think there was any discussions along that line at all. Q. Okay. And when was the next time for you to go back to Anniston? A . I believe i t was March 1996. Q . And again a t the direction of Doctor Kaley? Q. trip? What was the purpose of this A. At that time, we had signed a consent order or consent agreement with the State Department of Environmental 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 '800-888-DEPO LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034820 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 66 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Management, ADEM, to undertake a number of responsibility regarding expansion of the purchase property program to the Montrose Street area, and to undertake a program of off-site soil sampling in four specific areas . Q Soil only, no air sampling at all at this point in time? A . I don't believe there was any mention of air sampling in that consent order. Q. Okay. And, obviously, by this time then you were aware of the fact that there may be a problem with PCBs, much more aware than you were in November of '95? A. Well, I guess I was aware that -- a little bit more aware of the sampling that had been undertaken in the east side area along the ditch. I was aware that they had been doing sampling on the west side where there's another ditch and drainage system. I was certainly aware that there had been a consent order or 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034821 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 67 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 agreement signed stipulating certain responsibilities from Monsanto. Q. Right. Were you a party to that consent agreement? A . No . Q. Did you participate in any advisory position whatsoever? A . No . Q Okay. And what s p e cifically did you d o i n March of ' 96, when you went down 7 Did you meet with the residents i n and around the a re a , the property owners? A. My responsibility primarily was to meet with residents in the areas where we had to do soil sampling or we were requested to do soil sampling under the consent agreement, meet with the residents, tell them what we were going to be doing and get their permission to do soil sampling and sediment sampling in that ditch and adjacent areas of the ditch. Q. Okay. Did you have -- I don't mean to be cute or anything-- any type of 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 i laser pr,nted i HARTOLDMON0034822 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 68 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 script? Obviously, this is -- you know, this is an important step, you're meeting the public and you want to put your best foot forward and explain to them what the situation is. Was there anything that -- any document that was prepared for you to review with respect to what you would say to these individuals? A . No . Q. Okay. Had you met with any members of the community advisory panel, public relations group to discuss how you might present what could be a potential problem and explain it to these property owners? Obviously, you had some parameters as to what you c o uId not -- what plans you all had with respect to the property. A. Well, number one, there was no community advisory group that had been set up . Q. Okay. I thought you mentioned a community advisory panel. A. We looked at the possibility of 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034823 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 69 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 forming one prior to that, but never did. Q. Never did. Okay. Did you ever have any brochures published? A. There were brochures that were published. I don't know whether I'd call them a brochure or a pamphlet, explaining what we did and who we are as Monsanto Anniston plant. Q. Was that ever disseminated to the public there? A. I handed out a number of those. MR. HOLLINGSWORTH: that's in those documents. I'm sure MR. COX: we still have them. I believe so. If not, I think there's still some at the plant. Q. Did that brochure deal with the subject of PCBs at all? A. I don't believe so. Q. Did it deal with the subject of soil contamination generally or water contamination? A . No. 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800'8884TRPO LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034824 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 70 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q. Did it deal with any type of potential hazard that might be associated -- or that those property owners may face as a result of either being there oras -- did it deal with any contaminations of the property of these particular owners? A. Not that I recall, no. Q. Basically, just a here is who we are, we're Monsanto and this is what we do? A . Correct Q Okay. Now , were you a u t h o r i when you visited the plant i n March o f to contact property owners and seek t o some sort of deal wherein Monsanto would purchase their property? A. No, that was not the purpose when I was there in March of 1996. Q. What b asically did you say to the property owners you contacted, in a nut she 11? A. In a nutshell, I made them aware of the soil and sediment sampling that we had been doing for the detection of PCBs on 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 i .Kon.KKK.nFPn laser rented ........... HARTOL D M O N0034825 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 the east side and west side of our plant; specifically, the focus of that sampling was on two ditches and drainage systems, and that we were continuing our sampling into off-site areas following those ditches and draining systems to see whether any PCBs were present in those areas. Q. How many people did you talk to during this visit? MR. COX:March of '96? MR. HOLLINGSWORTH: Yes. A. Morethan twenty, less than fifty. Q. Okay. When you talked to these folks and you told them about the sampling that you'd been doing in this area, did you tell them that you had determined that there was some relatively high samples of PCB contamination in these two areas, the two drainage ditches that you'd been testing? Let's strike that. Let me -- A. I'm not sure. 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1.80(V88K.r>F.PO L* HARTOLDMON0034826 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 72 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q. Okay. Well, let me ask you this : When you tell these -- you had met these people before? A . Correct. Q And you introduced yourself representative of Monsanto? A . True. Q. And you told them that you all had been doing testing in and about this area regarding PCBs? A. In and about the area -- Q. East side? A. -- adjacent to the plant; not in the area of where those people currently lived. Q. Did any of these people ask you exactly what are PCBs? A. Yes. Q Well, how would you respond? A . PCBs are synthetic, that is man-made, chlorinated hydrocarbons that were made at the Anniston plant for -- I guess it g oes back to 1929, the early 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888-DEPO LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034827 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 1930's and discontinued around 1971, and that PCBs are persistent, stable materials and adhere in very -- or bound very tightly to the organic matter in soil. Q. Well, did any of them ask you why that would be of any concern to them? A. I believe at that point in time there had been a lot of communications in the local paper regarding PCBs. Q. Well, how would you respond to their guestions, if you were asked, is this a danger to me to have to' worry about this on my property, to have to worry about my children, perhaps, eating dirt or something of that nature? How would you respond to their concerns when you informed them of the presence -- the potential -- A. Generally, in just about all the cases, I would respond to them that I was certainly not an expert in the toxicology and health effects of PCBs. And in many cases, I gave them several people -- or the names of people that they could contact to 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888-DFPD _ LASERPR,NTED_____ .... HARTOLDMONOQ34828 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS ______________________________________________________________________74 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 surface those particular concerns or those issues that you've just described. Q. When they would press you, and I assume some of them did, about whether or not you were aware that this was a potential hazard, how would you respond? A . I'm not so sure that there were that many people that I recall that really pressed me as you've just described i t . Q. In other words, somebody from Monsanto comes and knocks on their door and informs them that there is a presence of -- high presence of PCBs that may be on their soil, that may be in their bodies, and they basically didn't really press you for any answer as to whether or not it could potentially be a harm to them or harm to their property? A. If you would, you'll have to ask that again. of -- I didn't get the first part Q. I mean, let's -- MR. COX: I'm not sure it was a 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 .KOfLKKKJnFPn LA HARTOLDMON0034829 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 75 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 question. MR. HOLLINGSWORTH: Well, let me make sure you're sure. MR. COX: Rephrase it. Q. When you knocked on the door of these less than twenty, more than ten folks at this time that had property, I guess, in about -- A. Greater than twenty, less than fifty. Q. Okay.I'm sorry. I would think that if I were in their shoes and you as representative of Monsanto came to me and informed me that you all had been doing some testing, and there was a potential that my property may be contaminated as a result of PCBs, that I would be concerned, number one, about whether or not me or a member of my family or someone who worked for me might be -- may have toxic levels of PCBs, and number two, whether or not my property would have been contaminated. I would expect that they would have asked you 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1.800.8S8.DFPO LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034830 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 76 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 those questions in a rather pressing format. Is it your testimony that they did not? A. There may have been certain individuals that had specific concerns. Q. But you're saying generally you were not pressed to offer your opinion as to how this might harm them or their property? A. Generally, that is Q. Okay. In any situation were you pressed to offer them your opinion as to whether or not they stood in harm's way or their property was contaminated? A . Yes. Q. And how did you" respond? A. Well, in those cases, that's when I indicated, as I would indicate today, that I'm not an expert in the toxicology and health effects of PCBs, and that I would give them people to -- and telephone numbers to contact that were experts. 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034831 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 77 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q Did you, i n fact, do that? A . Oh , y es , i n a number of cases. Q Who was the expert at that time that you were referringthem to? A. We had made arrangements, when I say we Monsanto, had made arrangements with two individuals, I guess, in a consulting role to field those types of guestions that dealt with toxicology or environmental health issues. .. Q. Who were thoseindividuals? A. One of the individuals was a DoctorRenada Kimbrough. Q. I've got her address right here (indicating) . A. In Washington D.C. Q. All right. And who was the other one? A. There was a second individual who I never met, and quite frankly, I 7m not sure -- I don't recall his name, but he was a -- I believe a professor in occupational medicine at UAB, University of -- 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034832 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 78 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q. Doctor Robert Meeks? A. -- Alabama at Birmingham. Q. Sir? It wasn't doctor -- let's see. Was he an industrial hygienist? A. No, this was occupational medicine. Q. Okay. You don't recall his name. I know -- he was with the Department of Public Health? A. I don't believe so. Q. Okay. A . There was a third individual that reguested that he be on some type of a contact li s t , and that was Doctor Brian Hughes. Q Brian Hughe s. A . Who was affiliated with the D e p a r t m e n t o f Public Health, Alabama Department o f Public Health. Q I meant the school of public health with UAB, the second person that you were -- MR . COX: If you know. 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1-SOO-888-DKPO " HARTOLDMON0034833 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 79 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A. I would think he would have been affiliated with the school of public health. Q. You don't recall his name, though? A . No, I do not. Q Okay. And you would tell them that you were not an expert in this? A . Absolutely Q You would tell them you had no knowledge regarding PCBs and its toxicity A . Correct. Q Okay. true statement? And was that. in fact, a A. I think from the standpoint of the concerns that I heard in those particular situations, yes, that's a true statement . Q. But you had read just about all the literature regarding PCBs and its potential toxicity ; had you not? A. Oh, no. Q. Okay. You had not done any type 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1-800'888-DEPO LASER PR,NTED HARTOLDMON0034834 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 80 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 of literature search, you had not read -- had you read anything? Had you read any of Doctor Kimbrough's publications? A. I may have read Doctor Kimbrough's paper, but it would have been perhaps some years ago. Q. Well, did Doctor Kimbrough express any concerns about potential toxicity of PCBs in her study? MR. COX: Which one ? Q. The one you read. A. I'm not even familiar enough with the study. As I recall, it was an article or a publication that dealt with some of the animal toxicology studies that she had done or had coordinated back in the '70's. Q. Do you know whether or not she came to the conclusion that it was a potential carcinogen or toxic hazard? A. As I recall, I think the conclusion was that PCBs fed in very high dosage levels to rodents could cause cancer. 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888-DEPO * HARTOLDMON0034835 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 81 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q. Okay. Did you tell this to any of those people that you talked to? A. I believe there were questions regarding in general the carcinogenicity of PCBs in animals. Q. Okay. How did you respond to those questions? A. I said that was true from the standpoint of what i just told you, and that is not all animals because they haven't been tested i n all animals, but they've been tested i n rodents in feeding studies, and as I understand, caused -- were found to cause cancer. Q. Did you suggest that any of the individuals you talked to have any type of tests done for -- to determine whether or not they had levels of PCBs in their body? A . No. Q. Okay. Were you aware of any testing firms that were capable of doing that at that time? A. I knew of tests that were 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 '800-888-DEPO " HARTOLDMON0034836 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 82 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 available. I was not aware of testing firms that did that type of work. Q. Okay. But could you have directed these individuals to a clinic or their physician or someone that might have -- might have the capability of having them tested had you been asked? A. No. But I was asked. Q. And how did you respond? A . And in those situations, I suggested that they contact Doctor Brian Hughes . Q Okay. Is Doctor Hughes an M.D. A . Doctor Hughes, I believe , i s a Ph . D . Q- Okay. To any of the les s than fifty, more than twenty people you talked to, did you make any effort'at all t o i i H N 3 cn mediate orry-- to mitigate any damage that may have occurred to them or their property with respect to PCBs contamination? In other words, did you suggest to them that they might want to 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888-DEPO LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034837 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS _____________________________________________________________________83 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 seek medical attention regarding contamination of their body and that they may want to make some remedial effort such as keeping their children inside and not letting them eat dirt, that type of thing with respect to soil contamination? Did you make any effort to -- A. At that point in time, we didn't know of any soil contamination. Q. Now, you had already tested -- the east side property purchase program had already been established? A. The east side program had already been established. Q. Okay. A. I was not meeting with east side residents . Q. Okay. You were meeting with west side residents at this time? A. West side residents were one of four groups. Q. Okay. At this point, you had not done any off property soil testing? 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888-DFPO LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034838 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS _. 84 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q. And this is the predecessor to that, this is a precursor to doing that, you're trying to get their permission? A. Correct. Q. Okay. And I assume that you, in most cases, got their permission? A. I think in every case I got their permission. Q. And was Mr. Massey one of the people you met with on that occasion? A. Not during that time frame. Q. All right. Okay. When was the next time for you to -- and I assume that was basically the sum and substance of your visit to Anniston, to begin meeting with people, begin letting them know you'd like to do some off site soil testing on their property, kind of let them know what's going on with respect to property purchase, property cleanup and that type thing? A. Correct. That was the purpose -- Q. The first time? 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888-DFPO " HARTOLDMON0034839 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 85 1 A . -- in March of 1997 -- 1996. 2 Q. Okay. And when was the next time 3 for you to come to Anniston? Let me ask 4 you this: How 1 on g were you there in March 5 of 1996? 6 A . Just about every week. 7 Q - Every week during March? 8 A . Every week during March, perhaps 9 April, May , June, July. And that was not 1 0 every week , but I got into a schedule of. 1 1 perhaps, flying in on a Monday and Tuesday 1 2 and flying out on a Thursday or Friday. 13 Q Yeah. But again, the purpose -- 1 4 and during this time you were meeting with 1 5 this less than fifty, more than twenty 1 6 group? 1 7 A . It would have been expanded to 1 8 than fifty a t that time. 19 Q Okay. But again, purpose the 2 0 same, to gain permission to do testing on 2 1 the property, basically tell them what it's 2 2 all about, kind of, as we said, an 2 3 introductory visit? 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 'HOn.S88.DFPO LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034840 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 86 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A . Yes. Q. Okay. Now, was there a period of time after July of 1996, where you just didn't come back to Anniston for a long time? Was there a tertiary phase to your -- A. After July of 1996, I continued and have continued to periodically come back to Anniston for different purposes, different reasons. Q. Okay. I assume that -- excuse the expression. But I assume that the visit in March of '96, was the beginning of some campaign to educate, to inform, to sort of bring the community in to let them know what was going on with respect to property purchases and cleanups and that type thing? A. Well, the real purpose starting in March and really continuing until July, was to very simply comply with the provisions that dealt with soil sampling under that purchase property program. 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 '800-888-DEPO ............" HARTOLDMON0034841 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 87 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q. Okay. A. And in addition, there was a stipulation or provision in the consent order or consent agreement to perform some house cleaning or cleaning homes and temporary relocation of people in, I think the east side and -- the east side area and the expanded -- what I'll call the expanded east side area, which covered Montrose Avenue . Q. All the way to and including Montrose Avenue? . MR. COX: Right. A. Including residents on both sides, all of those would have been included under that program. Q. Were any commercial properties included in that program? A. No, I don't believe so. Q. All right. Now, was there another phase to this campaign that occurred after July of '96? In other words, you were there pretty much every 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-.KK.r>FPn LA HARTOLDMON0034842 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 88 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 week in July and we completed that. Now, are we on to another phase of compliance with the cons e n t order? A. Well, at one period in time, I think under the compliance order, compliance agreement or the consent order, consent agreement, we were to offer cleaning and temporary relocation services to certain individuals. By certain individuals, I mean residents in certain areas. I was involved in that. Q All right. And then when was your next trip back then after July of '96? A . I think I continued to come back to Anniston on some frequency of, perhaps. every couple of weeks or, perhaps, every week for a peri od of time. Q Okay. When did you first have an occasion to nee t Mr. Massey and introduce yourself to him 7 A . I th i nk it was in May of 1996. Q then? So it was during that first visit 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888/DEPO LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034843 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 89 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A. Correct. Q. Okay. Q. What do you recallabout your meeting with Mr. Massey? Do you recall what you said to him? A. The first meeting that I had with Mr. Massey, I think, was an introductory meeting where Joe Lambert introduced me to Mr. Massey. Q. Okay. Where were you? A. I think right in the middle of Parkland Avenue, right next to Mr. Massey's Anniston Rental Equipment Company. Q. Okay. Do you recall what, if anything, was said regarding your purpose of being there? A. No, Idon't recall,you know, exactly the conversation -- Q. Did you go into detail -- A . -- we had a t that period in time. Q -- at all a s to what -- as to the testing. whether o r not PCBs had been found 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888-DFPO LA HARTOLDMON0034844 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 90 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 in the ditch, that type of thing? A. No, not at that -- not at that meeting . Q . Then what w a s the next o c c a s ion for you to see Mr . Mas s e y ? That was basically just how are you , my name is Jack Massey? A. Q . Okay. A. Correct. I think the next meeting was, perhaps, within a couple of days. Q. Still in May of '96? A. Correct. Q. How did that come about? A. That's when we were -- we had been sampling soils and sediments in the area south of West Ninth Street between Bancroft and Duncan. " Q. West of Ninth? A. South. MR. COX: S outh. A. South of West Ninth Street. 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 .KOfLKSS-TYFPn LASER PRINTED HART OLDMON0034845 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 91 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q. Okay. A. Between Bancroft and Duncan. And I was trying to determine where this ditch flowed. For a long time,' I was under the impression by looking at the topography, that the ditch ran west to east behind Joe Lambert's property and then vanished. I was under the impression that it then went subsurface until it got to the railroad tracks east of Clydesdale. I was informed by local residents that that was not the case, that that ditch, and again, this is the ditch that we would call the west side ditch, the ditch that runs the west side of Monsanto Anniston plant. Q. By the railroad track? A. It goes by the railroad track, it continues up diagonally towards the north and then it goes behind Lambert Recycling. And I was informed that, no, that ditch makes an abrupt turn to the north and goes underneath the Lambert Recycling Center. Q. All right. Underneath the slab 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 .KOfLKKK/nFPO " HARTOLDMON0034846 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS ______________________________________________________________________92 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 there? A. Goesright underneath the slab. Q . Yes. A. Continues north and then goes subsurface in a culvert. It joins the storm water drain system right at West Tenth Street. Q. All right. Then it goes east? A. Then it runs east to the intersection of Parkland and West Tenth Street and diverts diagonally toward the north side ofWest Tenth Street, continues to run east to the intersection of West Tenth Street and Clydesdale and then runs subsurface diagonally towards the southeast toward the railroad track. Q. And then does it sort of parallel Tenth going northeast? A. Well, at that point when it goes and comes to the surface again at the railroad track, it follows the railroad track and at a certain point it then runs parallel to Eleventh Street. 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 '800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0034847 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 93 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q. Okay. A. Well, it was during this process of determining where this ditch flowed. Because the purpose was to follow that ditch and sample the sediments in that ditch and then, ifneed be, sample the adjacent properties outside the ditch. So at that particular point, we were initiating sampling in that ditch behind LambertRecycling, and also under Lambert Recycling up until West Tenth Street . Q. And so that was the purpose of your second meeting with Mr. Massey? A. The purpose of the second meeting, which was a longer meeting, certainly longer than the first, was to get Mr. Massey's permission to sample the ditch behind the Lambert Recycling building because Mrs. Lambert, as I understand, leased that property from Mr. Massey. Q. Which is now called the motor pool? You all now lease that from Mrs. -- 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -HOO-H8K-DKPO LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034848 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 94 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A. We -- it's my understanding it's a sublease -- Q. Okay. A. -- type of situation. Q. And Iassume you obtained that permission? A. Correct. Q. Okay. Did you discuss anything e with M r . M a s s ey during that meeting? A . Well , I think at that time, I cussed and summarized or briefed Mr. s ey on the s amp ling that we had been doing on the east side, west side associated with PCBs in and adjacent the two ditches, and that the ditch in question, the west side ditch, is the one that meandered north of the railroad track, through a mobile home park and then diverted south of Lambert Recycling on his property and then diverted north. So that was the ditch that we wanted to sample. Q. Okay. Did you discuss anything else with him at that point? 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888-DFPD HARTOLDMON0034849 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------9-5- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A. At that time, nothing comes to mind, no. MR. COX: We've been going about an hour and forty-five minutes. It's about a quarter to 1:00. Let's take a break for lunch . (Lunch recess was had.) Q. (By Mr. Hollingsworth) I think we were talking about when you visited Jack, and we were at the second visit, and that was when you were trying to determine where the ditch was flowing? Q. And you visited him for the purpose of getting his permission to test on his property? A. Correct. Q. Okay. A. That was a joint permission, I believe, between Joe Lambert and Mr. Massey. Q. All rig h t. How did you test under the Lambert building? 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 "800-888-DEPO " HARTOLDMON0034850 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 96 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A. We didn't test under the Lambert building. What we did is we tested right there in the ditch. And at one point, we took some samples of sediment inside the building. Q. Inside the building? That would have been on top of the concrete? A. Correct. Q. Okay. All right. Did you have subsequent meetings with Jack or was that -- A. No, I had subsequent meetings with Jack. Q. All right. But at that time, you only discussed the possibility -- getting his permission to test on that property? A. Correct. That would be the lease property behind Lambert Recycling. Q. Okay. And you, in fact, tested there? A. Correct. Q. Okay. Now, as a practical matter, has it been your finding that your 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1.800*8Kfi.nFPn HARTOLDMON0034851 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 97 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 readings in that creek basis, ditch basin had been inordinately high compared to other soil samples that you conducted? A. I'm not sure I had a frame of referenceat that particular time. Keep in mind, I came in March of 1996. I had not been involved in any soil sampling at that particular point in time. We had four areas where we needed to conduct soil sampling. I would also like to clear up one point earlier. We are talking about a time frame between March and July. Our sampling in our areas went well beyond July. ,,. Q. Right. I'm not talking -- I'm talkingabout as we sit here today. I'm not talking about what you knew at the time, but as we sit here today, looking o n the data that you've accumulated. A . Oh , okay. Q . Has that -- A . Framing it in that way, there are 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888-DEPO LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034852 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 1 certain levels of PCB in thatditch which 2 are quite low. For the most part, they're 3 relatively low in the ditch. 4 Q. In the ditch. How about 5 contiguous -- 6 A. Contiguous to the ditch? 7 Q. Right. 8 A. There are some concentrations 9 that get into the hundreds. 1 0 Q. Okay. 1 1 A. Which again, relative to areas 1 2 contiguous to, for example, the east side 1 3 ditch, might be termed -- as I recall, we 1 4 saw, perhaps, some levels that high, but 1 5 most of the -- most of the results were not 16 extremely high in the ditch, oreither on 17 or contiguous to the ditch. As I recall, 1 8 about the highest concentration I saw 1 9 adjacent that ditch, and that would have 20 behind JoeLambert's Recycling Center, was 2 1 about three hundred and sixty, three 2 2 hundred and eighty ppm. 2 3 Q . Okay. 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1-80(V888.r>FPO " HARTOLDMON0034853 Foshee & Turner 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A. In a localized area where we knew based on discussions with Joe Lambert, perhaps even Mr. Massey, that we had continual flooding in that area and had -- and that was an area that continued to flood in the past for many, many years. Q. Tell me about the results of the surface testing on the Lambert property. Were they inordinately high, or were they above five parts per million? A. Well, certainly above five parts per million, above our screening level would not be inordinately high. Q. Right. Well, let me ask -- let me show you, and I'm not going to mark this, but I'll just tell you this is a plat that Golden and Associates did, I assume at your request. Is this the Lambert property right here (indicating)? Is that the slab? A. This is the Joe Lambert Recycling Center (indicating). Q. Okay. A. This building right here 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888-DKPO LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034854 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 10 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 (indicating) . MR. COX: Just for record, he's pointing to the -- MR. HOLLINGSWORTH: I'll introduce this -- MR. COX: You may want to mark it. Q. Would this have been the surface test results? This is the slab itself (indicating). A. Are we talking about this particular sample (indicating)? Q. Yes. A. This would have been a sample of residue debris. Q. On the -- A. On the slab right above that ditch. Q. Which would have had to have been the result of flooding? A. I would expect that would have been the case. Q. Okay. But I guess to follow-up 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 i .8on.888.nF.pn " HARTOLDMON0034855 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 10 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 my last question, as you tracked the ditch or the creek down through its various gigs and jaunts and ended up at, I guess, ultimately paralleling Eleventh Street -- Q. -- did you find elevated levels of PCB as you followed the creek? Did you test all the way down -- you tested passed Clydesdale, I'm sure. Well, let me ask you this -- A. Well, we tested-in the ditch -- Q . Okay. A. -- where the ditch was open to the surface. A portion of that ditch, as I said earlier, joins a storm water draining system that runs underground. Q. Okay. Then it emerges again? A. It emerges again by the railroad track, and then runs in parallel to eventually Eleventh Street, and then eventually reaches a confluence point with Snow Creek. Q. Okay. What was the furthest 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 .SOO.HSK.DFPn L* HARTOLDMON0034856 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 10 2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 point north -- I guess the ultimate flow is northeast; isn't that right? I mean, to parallel Eleventh Street would be northeast by southwest. A. Yeah. At Eleventh Street, I guess you're pretty well going west to east. Q. Right. So what was the furthest point that you all tested, you know, away from the head waters, if you will, of that creek? A. The furthest point north of the head waters for that particular ditch -- the farthest point north would have been at West Tenth Street because that ditch runs north to West Tenth Street. At that point, it turns and it's going due east. Q. That would have been right in front of Mr. Massey's property? A. That would have been on the north side -- Q. The funeral home? A. -- of Massey's property. The 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 .kOO-KRR.nFPO HARTOLDMON0034857 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 10 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 north side of We s t Tenth Street in front of Mr. Massey's property. Q. Okay. That's the furthest you all tested? A. Well, we didn't test there because the ditch at that particular point was subsurface underground. Q. All right. Have you tested where the ditch again emerges? A. Yes, but I don't know whether we've tested at that specific point. There's a junction box. I think we've tested downstream of that junction box at various stations. Q. All right. Which would actually be close to Tenth Street at that point; would it not be? A. At that point, we would have been between the railroad track east of Clydesdale, south of West Eleventh Street. Q. Okay. Did you find levels that were inordinately high in that testing? MR. COX: Object to the form. 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -ROOrRRR.TlVVn ................. LASER PRINTED............... ........... .... HARTOLDMON0034858 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 10 4 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q. Let me say this: Let me rephrase that. Did you find levels that were at or above the average that you had found in previous tests on that ditch? A . A s I recall, we found some levels were i n the same or similar range. Q Okay. Did you test adjacent to the ditch passed Clydesdale as the creek reemerged, or were you just in the creek bed? A. No. What we did is we tested actually the side of the ditch and then at the berm of the ditch and then usually -- excuse me -- a t the side of the ditch, a t the edge of the ditch at the berm; and by berm I mean where it flattens out at the top, and then usually five to ten foot outside of the ditch. Q. Okay. A. And where we're doing this testing that I'm talking about is at about four different locations in the ditch or at the ditch north of -- parallel the railroad 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 i _ laser printed________ ..... HARTOLDMON0034859 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 10 5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 track east of Clydesdale. Q. Okay. And again, were those levels consistent with what you had found priorto? . .. A. Those levels were variable. Q. Okay. A. Some below the limit of detection of the screening. Q. Okay. A. Some higher of the magnitude of the two hundred, three hundred ppm. Q. Okay. Now, tell me again your next meeting with Mr. Massey that you recall . A. The next meeting with Mr. Massey, I believe was -- could have been a week or a couple of weeks later than the last one. o r after the last one. where I gained Mr . Ma ssey's permission to sample a piece o f pr o p e r t y , an empty lot that he had north of We st Tenth Street at the junction of West T e nth and Parkland Q. Okay. And I think, if I recall 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-8SH-DFPD ................LASER PR.NTED_______ ............ HARTOLDMON0034860 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 10 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 correctly, the values -- tested values of that area were below five parts per million; isn't that correct? A. Except one value. Q. Right. Which was -- A. And there's a -- there's a question on whether the location of that sample point is on the property or in the right-of-way. Q. Now, in any of your meetings with Mr. Massey, did you discuss with him the possibility of Monsanto cleaning up his property from the standpoint -- environmentally cleaning up his property? A . No . Q. Never did, never said that? A . No. Q. Did you ever discuss with him the possibility of Monsanto purchasing his property? A . No. Q. Okay. Did you discuss with him Monsanto purchasing other pieces of 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888-DFPO " HARTOLDMON0034861 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 10 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 property in that area? A. The only conversation that we may have had in that r egard is that Mr. Massey may have asked me some questions regarding the purchase property program that we had on the east side. Q. Okay. Now, you never made the statement then t o Mr . Massey that Monsanto was going to come i n and cut down sixteen inches of dirt and haul that off to a certified landfill, secure landfill 7 A . No . Q Okay. And you never said t o that they were going to do that on his property, and that they were going to basically require him to move while you did this? A. No, because I never had the opportunity to meet with Mr. Massey to go over the sampling results on two of the three properties that we've discussed. Q. lawyer? That's because he had hired a 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 ^800'888'DEPO LA HARTOLDMON0034862 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 10 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A. Correct. Q. Okay. But, in fact, the folks that didn't hire a 1awyer, you told them what -- you responded to them in writing and told them what the levels were; is n' that correct p A. Correct. Q. Okay. Well, you're aware of the fact that the levels on Mr. Massey's property are extremely high in some areas; are you not? A. There are a couple of locations on Mr. Massey's property that are quite high. Q. Okay. And is it your testimony that you did not suggest to him that Monsanto would clean up that because you never were allowed to -- because of the fact he had hired a lawyer? A. Correct. We never discussed the levels on his property other than the lease property that I just talked about. Q. Did you ever discuss with him 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888-DKPO " HARTOLDMON0034863 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 10 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Monsanto's plans to acquire the residential property in that area and clean them up and remove the soil, contaminated soil off premises? A. I may havementioned to Jack that -- and I'm not sure whether at that particularpoint in time that we were expanding the purchase property program for residential properties in areas north of our plant, including the area abounded by Bancroft, West Ninth Street and Duncan Street and the residential community -- residential series of houses along the south side of West Tenth Streef between Parkland and Duncan. Q. Well, at this point, was it ever included in the property purchase -- the east side property purchase program that any commercial property would have been purchased? A. At this particular point in time with the expansion in those areas, no. Q. Okay. Did you ever indicate to 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 ^80(VK8K-r>FPO LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034864 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Mr. Massey or in a conversation indicate to him that you all had made a deal with ADEM or the EPA to clean up the commercial property? "' A. No, because I'm not so sure there was, as you say, a deal or a communication -- Q. Well, I use that loosely. A. -- at that stage on what we would be doing . Q. Okay. There wasn't any representation that the soil would be hauled off and that asphalt would be replaced there to cover up the soil? A. Specifically on his property? Q. On any property? In a general discussion with Mr. Massey, I guess is what I'm saying. A . I don't believe so. Q Okay. At any point in time, did Monsanto decide to as part of this property purchase program to purchase commercial property? 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-^88-TTF.PO LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034865 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 111 1 A. We have purchased some commercial 2 properties. 3 Q . Well, w h at was the -- what 4 prompted the change in the program to 5 purchase commercial property as opposed to 6 your earlier comments to Mr. Massey that no 7 commercial property would be purchased? 8 What precipitated the change? 9 A. Well,the commercial properties 10 -- and I can only speak personally. But 1 1 the commercial property negotiations that I 1 2 personally was involved in dealt with 1 3 commercial properties that we were impacted 1 4 directly by the ditch or the creek. 15 Q. Okay. So it was the testing? 1 6 A. Or properties that we felt were 1 7 needed in order to do what remedial 1 8 projects our design team or design 1 9 engineers thought were feasible. 20 Q. Okay. And so it would have been 21 thetesting ultimately, that determined 2 2 which commercial properties were to be 2 3 purchased? 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888-DFPO " HARTOLDMON0034866 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 112 1 A. The testing would have been the 2 first -- obviously, the first catalyst. 3 Q. Okay. Now, tell me what remedial 4 projects you're referring to that the team 5 had concluded needed to be done. 6 A. Well, at this time when I say 7 remedial projects, I'm referencing some of 8 the types of remedial projects that were 9 underway; for example, on the south 1 0 landfill, the west landfill, the east side 1 1 remediation project that involved the 1 2 construction of a detention basin, piping, 1 3 berms, changing of drainage flows, 1 4 diversion of water, control of flooding. 1 5 One particular property, 1 6 commercial property was what I call the 1 7 Miller property, which we purchased that 1 8 allowed us to construct a' drainage channel 1 9 from Tenth Street up to the railroad 2 0 track. 21 Q. Okay. And at some point in time 2 2 then after you got the test, you all made 2 3 the determination that you needed to buy 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888-DEPO 1 HARTOLDMON0034867 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 113 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 some commercial property to complete the remedial projects that you had on the table? A. Yeah. I'm not sure that would have been my decision. Q. I mean as a group. Q. Okay. And however, at that point, you were not able to convey that to Mr. Massey because he had hired me? A. Well, I was not able to convey the communications on sampling results, which was my responsibility to communicate sampling results. Q. Right. Was the prospect of actually just cleaning up the commercial property, Mr. Massey's property in particular, ever discussed or was that ever a possibility among the remedial team members that you're aware of? A. I don't recall any specific discussions -- Q. Well, I mean -- 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0034868 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 114 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A. -- regarding that. Q. -- did anybody ever say let's do a cost analysis to see if it'd be cheaper to try to clean this propertyup as opposed to purchasing it? Did you ever get any figures from Waste Management or any of the secure landfills as to what it would cost to do -- did you ever have any outside consulting firms come in and give you any prices on what it would cost to clean up this property? A . No . Q. Okay. Was anything ever done internally to give you some cost estimate as to clean up versus purchase? A. Not that I'm aware of, no. Q. I've gone through a lot of documents or people on my staff have gone through a lot of documents, one hundred and ninety-eight thousand pieces of paper. A lot of them has your signature on them. They basically dealt with permission to test, results of testing and that type of 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800.88S.DFPO " HARTOLDMON0034869 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 115 1 thing. And I think -- you know, obviously, 2 you're aware of the fact that many of the 3 pieces of property werepurchased by 4 Monsanto in and a r ound Mr. Massey's 5 property. 6 Do you have an opinion as to 7 whether or not the property that you 8 purchased that had, just for lack of a 9 better word, inordinately high levels of 1 0 PCBs, do you have an opinion as to whether 1 1 or not that fact alone would have caused -- 1 2 I guess presented a hazard to those 13 occupying that property? In order words, 1 4 why did Monsanto buy this property? 15 MR. COX: Are you asking him did 1 6 Monsanto buy the property because they were 1 7 afraid of what would happen to the people 1 8 that were occupying it? 19 MR. HOLLINGSWORTH: Yes. 2 0 A. What property? 2 1 Q. Well, let's just say the 22 residential property. Obviously, that 2 3 would be the -- that's the first property 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1-800-888-DFPO " HARTOLDMON0034870 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 116 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 you purchased; is it not? A. The residential property -- Q Right. A . -- in the east side area? Q Well, was that the first property p u r c h a s e d, the east side property? A . I believe that was the first -- Q . Coming down by the railroad track? MR. C OX ; No. A. No. This would have been the east side property east of the Monsanto plant, east of -- Q . Not Mars Hill? A. -- Clydesdale. MR. COX: Mars Hill and that area. Q Okay. A . All of that is the east side. Q But was there residential property there or was that simply just churches and -- MR. COX: That was residential. 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 L* HARTOLDMON0034871 Foshee & Turner REGIS rERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 117 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q. And that was the first property you purchased? A. Correct. Q. What was the motivation -- A. I wasn't involved in those decisions on what we would purchase, what we would not purchase. Q. Right. A. That particular purchaseproperty program, as I understand, wasinitiated prior to me coming in March of 1996. Q. Okay. Do you know why Monsanto purchased that property? A. Not personally, no. Q. Do you have an opinion? A. The opinion I have that one would purchase the properties in that particular area south of West Tenth Street in order to put in remedial projects necessary to minimize and contain thepossibility of any release of PCBs on sediment outside of Monsanto property. Q. So your opinion is that it was 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -nfLS8-TYFPn LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034872 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 118 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 not purchased to alleviate any particular hazard that may be posed to landowners? A . Not that I'm aware of, n o . Q Do you have an opinion a s t o whether PCBs constitut e a hazard t o humans? A . Yes. Q. What is that? A. I think it all depends on what the concentration of the PCBs are and what the nature of exposure is. Q . Well, -- A. My familiarity is primarily in the occupational arena, the occupational workplace. Q. Well, humanswork in the workplace; do they not? A . You bet you. Q Okay . And at what level then would you cons ider PCBs to pose a threat to humans in the workplace? A . That would be a -- I would only be guessing. I can tell you that there are exposure limit s that have been 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 .Knn,KKLTYFPn ^ HARTOLDMON0034873 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 119 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 established -- Q. What are those? A. -- for PCBs in the workplace. It depends on the PCB mixture. For example, if you have a higher chlorinated PCB mixture, one that contains fifty-four percent or greater chlorine, then the occupational exposure limit is zero point five milligrams per cubic meter of air. Q. Is this a Dragger tube testing method? A. No. Certainly much more sophisticated than that. It is a -- Q. Gas chromatography? A. You will us gas chromatography to do the analysis, but you'll collect your sample by using various collection devices depending upon the nature of whether it's a particulate, an aerosol, a vapor or whatever you've got. Q. Well, these were air tests? 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 '800-888-DEPO * HARTOLDMON0034874 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 12 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q. Okay. A. Now, I mention that's for the higher chlorinated materials. For the lower chlorinated materials, for example, forty-two percent and less chlorine than the occupational limit, and I might mention the TLV, called threshold limit value, is, I believe, zero -- - excuse, me -- one point zero milligrams per cubic meter. Q. Okay. Now, PCBs, as you mentioned earlier, they remain stable and bound to organic material and soil? A. That's my understanding; Q. Now, the chlorine -- I guess at this point, you're talking about PCBs that -- in determining these testing levels with various levels of chlorine, is there some assumption that there's some alteration in the cyclic structure of PCBs over time, or is this in their various stages of production? Why and how would you have higher levels or lower levels of 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034875 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 12 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 chlorine bound to the biphenyls? A. Depends on how you process the material. If you want to' manufacture a higher chlorinated material, then you're going to have a -- and I'm certainly not an expert in chemical engineering, but you're going to manufacture a process or produce a mixture that's got a higher chlorinated content. Q Okay. So there are various isotopes, if you will, of chlorinated biphenyls 7 A . Various isomers. Q Isomers, right. A . Right . Q And so you could have maybe two or three chlorine locations on the cyclic ring, or you might have four or five? A. Or conceivably you could have more than that. Q. Sure. But it's depending on the process, not something that happens to PCBs over time. Once they're manufactured. 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 .KOO.RRR.nFPn LA HARTOLDMON0034876 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 12 2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 whether it's location one, five, six or whatever, that's it? You're not saying that they alter or change? A. I'm not sure of that. We're talking now about the degradation, what may happen to a PCB mixture in an environment to cause it to, let's say, lose certain chlorines on a chemical molecule, and I'm not that versed in those particular characteristics. Q. All right. But are you saying that on this site Monsanto manufactured various isomers of chlorinated biphenyls, or was there just one particular? A. From what I understand, in the Aroclor line of PCBs, we manufactured a number of different mixtures. Q. Okay. Well, now, you mentioned in some of your letters regarding soil sampling that you were going to go beyond the soil sampling and perform other tests on samples that you obtained? A. Beyond the analysis that was done 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 i .snn.88.nFPn LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034877 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 12 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 on the screening of soil samples to do what we would call a confirmatory analysis. Q. Okay. And would that have included a determination as' to the chlorine levels? A. That would have included the ppm levels of the specific levels of the various mixtures. Q. Okay. It wouldn't have anything to do with the availability of chlorine on each molecule? A. Yes, in a way it would. It would ave a difference from the standpoint of if conduct an analy sis on a s amp1e, and I say that I have so much content, this is the level of 1254 and this is the level of 1268, what I'm reporting is I've got so many ppm of a component that -- Q. You could actually determine what the component was, though? You could determine which isomer that you had? A. It's really -- when I say a mixture, you're really talking about a 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 .KOO-KKS.DFPn LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034878 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 12 4 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 mixture of isomers. Q. But I mean if you look at it on a gas chromatograph, I mean, you see peaks and valleys? A. What you see is you see a fingerprint, and that fingerprint then is matched against standards. And that standard, for example, could be a 1254, 1248, 1268. And then those results are reportedin terms of the mixtures that were detected in that particular sample. Q. Okay. Now, was it important for you to determine that so that you can compare this to the occupational guidelines that, I assume, OSHA or the EPA has established for -- A. No, it wasn't important for me. Q . Okay. A. What we did is we followedthe particular proce dure that-was called for in the consent agreement. Q. Okay. A. And that's the way that procedure 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 i .snn.ftss.nppn HARTOLDMONOQ34879 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 12 5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 presents or analyzes the samples. Q. Well, is there a formula for equating the contamination in terms of parts per million to milligrams per cubic liter? ' A. Milligram per cubic meter? Q . Right. A. Yes, there is. Q . Okay. A. You won't be able to do it. though, me . Q- A. Q- No, I'm not going to do. -- the way I've suggested. I'm going to have you do it for A. I'm not sure I could do it right now. Q. Well, let me ask you then to tell me what, if you know, fifty-four percent -- let's assume that we're dealing with fifty-four percent chlorine. A . Okay. Q. And that equates to a maximum 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034880 Foshee & Turner . REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 12 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 threshold limit value; is that right, of five milligrams per cubic meter? MR. COX: Point five. MR. HOLLINGSWORTH: Point five. A. Let's say point five milligrams per cubic meter. Q. How does that equate -- can we equate that to parts permillion? A. Yes, you can. But again, that will be parts per million in terms of airborne. Q. Right. A. And it will be how much of this material on a volumetric basis versus a weight basis. And -- Q. Okay. A. -- I'm asked that sometimes, and I usually go to my handydandy reference book. But what you have to do is you have to look at the average molecular weight that you're talking about and then you'll use a constant. A constant is about twenty-four point four five for a standard 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 HARTOLDMON0034881 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 12 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 temperature and pressure. Q. All right. For it to become atmospheric? A. Well, in the formula that we're talking about where you convert weight in air to volume in air. Q. All right. So practically speaking, I mean, could you tell from a soil sample -- let me back up a little bit. You mentioned that these occupational levels are for airborne concentrations? A. These are for airborne concentrations. Q. Okay. And these are promulgated by? A. Right now they're promulgated by OS HA . Q. Okay. Do they have maximum levels for soil contamination in the workplace arena? A . No . Q. Okay. How about liquid 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 i .snn.ftftft.nTJPn J^S"NTED HARTOLDMON0034882 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 12 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 contamination of any type, water contamination? A . No. Q. Okay. Obviously, there's some method for soil contamination to become atmospheric contamination conceivably in the workplace; would there not be? A. Correct. Q. Okay. And is there a method of, let's say in this case, where you test on the surface of the Lambert Recycling Center, is there some way to equate what hazard fifty-three point five parts per million constitutes compared to an airborne level? In other words, can you say, well, yeah, that would present a hazard because it's point five milligrams per cubic meter or greater? I mean, is there some rule of thumb ? A . What you would have t o look at is most o f those levels. i f not all of those level s , are expressed i n ppm . Q. Right. 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 i.Kon.KKR.nFPn laSER pr.TM HARTOLDMON0034883 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 12 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A. We're talking about ppm of polychlorinated biphenyls in soil. Q. Okay. A. Therefore, the first thing we have to do is determine what that is on a weight basis in terms of milligrams per kilogram. Q. Okay. A. Milligrams of ppm per kilogram of soil is equivalent to ppm. Q. Okay. A. Now, if I say we have oneppm or five or ten -- ten is a good number. Ten ppm, then that's equivalent to ten milligrams per kilogram. We're talking about a mixture that represents 1254. It's got an airborne exposure limit of point five milligrams per cubic meter. Okay? Q. Okay. A. Now, we would have to say how much soil would we have to have in the ground here, coverage, to represent point five milligrams, point five milligrams. 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034884 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 13 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 because we've got ten milligrams per cubic -- per kilogram. Okay? Q. Allright. A. Then point five' is one-twentieth of that. So if we took one-twentieth of a kilogram, we disperse that evenly in a cubic meter of air, then that would represent the amount of material equivalent to the occupational exposure limit of PCBs. Q. I'm sure you've done that on some of these samples; have you not? A. I have not done that because I have never seen the situation where you could, in any operation I've seen, generate sufficient amount of soil in air with PCBs contained in that soil to even approach and get anywhere close to an occupational exposure limit. Q. All right. Because of the density and the mass of the soil? I mean, it's just -- to get a kilogram of soil airborne -- one-twentieth of a kilogram of soil airborne, and then take those 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 i -snn.fts.ni7Pn laser printed HARTOLDMON0034885 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 13 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 measurements would be practically impossible; would it not? A . To take the measurements would not be impossible. It's just generating that type of atmosphere long enough where you could actually take the measurement. Q. Actually have it come off the soil into the atmosphere? A . Well, it really wouldn ' t come o the soil. It would be a part o f the soil but what you would have to do i s take the soil, pulverize it and then conduct some operation with the soil that then generates a fairly consistent mass of material in the air. Q. Okay. Well, I mean to get back to my earlier question then, why do you think Monsanto purchased this property from these individuals who occupied this property? MR. COX: The residential? Q. you -- The residential, yeah. I mean, 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 i ..Knn.KKK-nFPn LaSErpr,nted HART OLDMON0034886 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 13 2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A The residential on the east side area? Q. Well, do you agree with OSHA that these threshold limits, these maximum threshold limits, if they're exceeded could constitute a hazard to human beings in the workplace? A. Yeah, they could, I guess, represent a hazard. Q. Okay. A. That's typically the way that OSHA or the American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists establish TLDs. Q. Okay. A. Now, we've got to keep in mind when I say the limit is point five or one or whatever, then clearly both agencies admonishes you to not treat that as a "safe and u n s a f e level VI Q Okay. A . And it may well be that you might have t o go quite above those before it 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 LASER PR,NTED HARTOLDMON0034887 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 13 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 would represent -- Q. A sustained -- A. -- a significant hazard because in most cases, in a lotof the threshold limit values and permissible exposure limits, you've also got kind of a margin, a working operating margin there. Q. Like if you went into a dry cleaner, and you know, I guess if you took a Dragger meter and you did an initial test just as their -- when they used to use propyl ethylene, I mean, you would -- there were TLVs established for propyl ethylene that would not -- as I understand it, would not necessarily be the sustained value of propyl ethylene in the atmosphere, but could be an initial value on a day that was hot, like today, or real humid, you could get readings that would be inordinate compared to maybe a yearlong average of what somebody is experiencing there? A. You could certainly get higher levels than what you would ordinarily see 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -KnfLSS-TYFPn LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034888 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 13 4 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 on average, yes. Q. All right. What types of hazards do you -- in your judgment, could occur from exposure to PCBs in levels higher than those established by OSHA? MR. COX: Are you talking about airborne PCBs? Q . Yes. A. Well, it's been my experience that in the occupational sector, I think the hazards that have been reported and presented by PCBs are skin irritation, the literature has reports of -- if you've got high concentrations of airborne vapor of PCBs, I think they report irritation and a skin condition known as chloracne. I've never seen any information at all in Monsanto that we've ever had any cases of chlor(acneassociated with polychlorinated biphenyl manufactured. The other thing that you will see in the literature is that when you have high concentrations of PCBs in air and have 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 i JTYFPn HARTOLDMON0034889 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 13 5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 the corresponding high exposure, then you may see liver enzyme changes, adverse effects on the liver. Those are the two principal effects that are -- that I note Q. Well, do you accept that as a professional, and do you accept that as a fact that in your judgment PCBs can cause liver enzyme alteration and skin irritati o n s o f s ome type ? A . I ' v e never seen a situation, but I accept i t o n the fact that I know some of the occupational physicians that support that and support those findings and I would say, yes. Q. You adopt those as credible findings? A. Correct. And generally, I think the documentation or the threshold limit values are based on those types of effects. Q. Well, I mean, with that in mind -- and my earlier guestion to you, what is 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 i laser printed H ARTOLDMON0034890 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 the motivation for Monsanto to purchase those properties, and I know that you've indicated that it's part of the remedial plan. A. Uh-huh. Q. But the short of the long is that Monsanto perceives a potential hazard to human beings and to other living creatures? A. I'm not sure that's true. Q. Okay. Well, what is Monsanto's position with respect to purchasing this property? Are they just doing it because they want to acquire more property in and around the Anniston area? A. Now, personally, I guess -- I think you'd askedthat question with regard to at least the east side area. I think my response on why we were purchasing that property is really for remediation projects to minimize the -- any downstream movement of polychlorinated biphenyls. Q. Okay. Well, I mean, then are you saying you recognize a hazard downstream 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888-DF.PO LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034891 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 13 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 due to polychlorinated biphenyls? I mean, you're attempting to abate some event that's going to occur downstream; is that correct? A. Well, again, I think that I -- I'm not the one to ask thatquestion. Q. Well, unfortunately, you're the only one I can ask right now. A. I appreciate that. And again, personally, since I was not involved in the original plans or the whys and why nots regarding the purchase property program, and when I came in in March of 1996, I had a consent order orconsent agreement in front of me that said -- Q. You didn't work beyond the four corners of that document? A. -- that, you know, we're going to do samplingin areas where -- in these four areas or in areas which we have a belief that there may be impacted -- Q . Okay. A . -- soil. 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 LASER PRINTED HART OLDMON0034892 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 13 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q. But I guess I'm trying to get to the ultimate question and that is: What is the motivation for doing this? I mean, does Monsanto, from a corporate standpoint and based on your familiarity with their corporate position on PCBs, do they recognize that PCB contamination of the soil poses any danger whatsoever to living creatures or -- well, just simply that. I mean, do they recognize that? A. I think that when we start talking about living creatures, I'm much more acquainted in the occupational area, in the workplace. Q. Well, I mean -- A. I have a tendency to deal with humans, with people that operate facilities, and I'm certainly not -- have no particular expertise in wildlife and animals . Q. I'm not asking you that. But obviously you have some understanding of what their concerns are. I mean, you've 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800'888-DEPO " HARTOLDMON0034893 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 13 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 been very much involved in the attempt to purchase this property; haveyou not? A . No. Q. Okay. You've been very much involved in contactingmembers of the public who own this property? A. Right. Q. And -- A. To do the soil sampling. Q. And certainly you've had to ask yourself at one point in time why is Monsanto trying to purchase their property. Now, I mean, I know your answer is -- has been so far, to be able to complete your remedial activities. But what is the ultimate reason -- certainly you're a very smart man, Mr. Elly. I mean, what, in your judgment, is Monsanto's ultimate goal in purchasing this property, and do they recognize any type of hazard posed by presence of PCBs on this property? 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034894 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 14 0 1 A. Again, I think the purpose, as I 2 understand it, is to minimize any off site 3 release of PCBs insoils and sediments. 4 Q. Okay. Which would result in? 5 A. Which would result in those soils 6 and sediments going further downstream or 7 outside of the boundaries of our plant. 8 Q. All right. And would that result 9 in a hazard? Would that create a hazard? 10 A. Oh, Ithink it would all depend 1 1 on what concentration you would have. 1 2 Q. Well, you all are purchasing this 1 3 property, have there been any studies to 1 4 determine what concentration you would have 1 5 downstream? 16 A. There maybe. I'm not -- 17 Q. I mean, the question is this: I 1 8 mean, you're buying up property that's 1 9 contaminated by PCBs; isn't that a fact? 2 0 A. We're buying up properties that 21 areimpacted by PCBs or in areas where we 2 2 would like to be able to -- in areas that 2 3 we like to be able to utilize in our 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 HARTOLDMON0034895 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 14 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 construction project. Q. And the construction project is the abatement of PCBs -- the containment of PCBs. I mean, you're not putting a playground out there. A. Correct. That's right. Q. Okay. And the question, the ultimate question is this: What is the motivation beyond the remedial efforts for Monsanto to purchase properties that are impacted, as you say, by PCBs? A. Well, I guess -- maybe I think we're going in a loop here, but the reason -- Q. We are, and you're the problem. A. -- that we're purchasing the property is to be able to put in and Q. Okay. A. -- engineering systems, remediation systems that minimize the release of PCBs. Q. Why do you want to minimize the 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 HARTOLDMON0034896 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 14 2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 release of PCBs? A. It may be due to -- I'm certainly aware that there are regulations in the area of managing PCBs. I think there are regulations from the standpoint of water and air permitting and there have been for many, many years. Q. So you're saying the reason you would want to do it would be in compliance with regulations? A. I think compliance with regulations. But another aspect is, if you're talking about an industrial chemical that is stable, ve ry persistent, and if you've got high concentrations, let's say, in certain areas of a ditch system. then I would think that like many industrial chemicals, you'd want to minimize the release of soils and sediments into downstream areas or , quite frankly, off of your property. Q. Because they may pose a hazard to those downstream? 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 HARTOLDMON0034897 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 14 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A. They may pose a hazard either to aquatic systems, wildlife, perhaps to individuals . Q. Okay. And has Monsanto accepted responsibility for putting those PCBs into the ditch, into the streams downstream which you're trying to abate, which your remedial efforts are trying to control? Does Monsanto accept responsibility for having caused that contamination? MR. COX: Object to the form. A. I think Monsanto is accepting responsibility for putting in place remedial projects to minimize any release of PCBs. Q. I understand that. That wasn't my qu e s tion. Is Monsanto accepting responsibility f or having, manufactured PCBs on that location from 1929 or '30, up till 1971, and as a result of that, having put or caused PCBs to be on and in property adjacent to that location? 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800.-888-DFPO " HARTOLDMON0034898 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 14 4 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A. I believe that would be a fair summary, yes. Q. And that's why Monsanto is participating in the remedial activities? Obviously, if Chevron had done this, they would -- A. Correct. Oh, yes. Sure . Yes Q Okay. That took a long time. A . Well,-- MR. COX: That's not his fault. Q. Oh, okay. I'll accept responsibility. Now, Mr. Massey, as you know, occupied this land from a commercial standpoint and operated a business there for a number of years. A . Uh-huh . Q. And his recollection of your conversations with him have been that you told him, and I know this is in dispute, that you all were not going to buy his property, that you were going to come in and basically clean it up, take the soil 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 i .nn-888.nppn laser p^ted HARTOLDMON0034899 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 14 5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 off the property, clean the surface of the buildings and co me back ip and pave that. Now, I know you dispute that. But hypothetically, if that were thecase, would you expect that to interfere with the operation of his business? A. The scenario that you just talked about, -- Q. Yes. A. -- is that in reference to Mr. Massey's property at Anniston Rental Equipment Company? Q. Right. A. Okay. Q. Where his commercial business was. I know he owns other pieces of property around there. A. Okay. I just wanted to get clear on that. So if you would, the last part of your question? Q. That is in reference to property associated with t h e Anniston Rental 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888'DEPO LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034900 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 14 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Equipment business. A. Okay. Because I know that Mr. Massey, from time to time, has owned, for example, Anniston Iron Works. Q. Right. A. And even had metal fabrication over there at Lambert Recycling. Q. Right. A. Okay. So if you could, now that I've got that, I'd like for you to repeat the question. Q. Hypothetically, is as Mr. Massey says that he was told by you and, perhaps, other representatives of Monsanto, that you all were not going to purchase his property, that you were just going to clean it up, that you were going to remove the soil, that you were going to pave over contaminated areas where you could not cleanu up the soil, and that you were going to clean out existing buildings, would you expect that to, in Mr. Massey's mind or from a business standpoint, pose an 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 i .Ron.RRR.nppn ............Lis!lFRINTED ..... HARTOLDMON0034901 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 14 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 interruption of business and, perhaps, even a discontinuation of business? A. I guess if we were to -- and this is a hypothetical, because first, I don't have any recollection at all -- Q. I understand? A. -- of telling Mr. Massey what you just said in that context.. Q. Right. A. And the first thing is I would have to have a little bit better characterization of Mr. Massey's property and the PCB -- not levels, but the profile. Q. Well, I'm just talking about the act of cleaning it up itself, I mean, as a business interruption. A. Uh-huh. Q. I mean, wouldn't youconsider that to be a business interruption? A. It could be. Q. Okay. And from the -- A. But on the other hand, if under the theoretical or the hypothetical and 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 HARTOLDMON0034902 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 14 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 still hypothetical, if the PCB on soil were isolated to, hypothetically, the top one inch of the property, then I would expect that one might be able to come in there, remediate the whole property without doing absolutely any damage or down time to the business whatsoever. Q. Unlike a service station that has been sold and there's a cleanup or closure procedure where there has to be aeration, property has to be subsurfaced down ten or twelve feet. You wouldn't envision that in this particular location? A. No. But in that situation, of course, again as a hypothetical, there would certainly be a businessinterruption because if you were closing the tanks -- Q. That would be it. A. -- or upgrading tanks, yes, there is business interruption. Q. Okay. But if that were the case hypothetically, from a business standpoint he would have an interruption, he'd have to 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 .SOO.RMK.DFPO HART OLDMON0034903 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 14 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 remove everything from his property, and that would be -- would you agree with me that there would be a significant business interruption? A. Again, it depends on -- under my scenario that I just mentioned, very, very little, if any. Q. All rig h t. .. A. But again, it depends on not only the level of PCBs in the soil, but the vertical profile in the soil. Q. Okay. Now, as we sit here today, what remedial plans are envisioned for Mr. Massey's property if you all are able to purchase that property? A. I have no idea. Q. Do you know what remedial projects are on thetable for property in and around that area, that ditch area? Let's say the Lambert property. The Lambert you purchased, and this other property, do you know if there's any plan for -- I mean, are you going to put any 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 HARTOLDMON0034904 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 15 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 type of holding ponds on that property? A. I think there's some preliminary plans for that particular property that may envision some type of -- not holding ponds, but, perhaps, a detention basin for storm water flood control. Q. Okay. Would that include Mr. Massey's property? A. I don't know. Q. Okay. You haven't seen any plats or any drawings of that? A. The only preliminary drawings that I've seen only encompassed between Duncan and Parkland. Q. What about Mr. Jones' property? A. I haven't seen anything regarding Mr. Jones' property. Q. Okay. Do you yourself have any opinion as to whether or not PCB contamination in the human body constitutes a hazard to health? A. Yes. Q. And what is that? 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1 -800-888-DEPO " HARTOLDMON0034905 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 15 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A. I think my opinion is, again it all depends on the concentration. Q. And in your opinion, what level of concentration would it constitute a hazard? A. I have no idea other than to say at a very, very high level. But there's no -- Q. Greater than a hundred parts per million? A. I have no reason to be able to pick out one level versus another. Q. But you would -- it's your opinion that at some level it constitutes a hazard? A. Yes. Q. Okay. I guess ice tea does at some level? A. Most c he micals do. Q. think. Okay. I'm about done here, I Doctor Kimbrough, has she ever worked for Monsanto, that you know of? 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 1-800-888-TyRPO LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034906 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 15 2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A. No, I don't. Q. Has she ever been compensated by Monsanto in any way that you're aware of? A. Not that I'm aware of. Q. Okay. A. Or I just don't know. Q. Have you all ever been cited by ADEM or EPA for noncompliance with the consent agreement that you all worked out, beginning I guess in 1995? Is that right? MR. COX: '96. Q . '96. A. Not that I'm aware of. But if that was a possibility, I'm not sure I would know it. MR. HOLLINGSWORTH: Let's take a short break. (Short recess was had.) MR. HOLLINGSWORTH: I don't have anything else. FURTHER DEPONENT SAITH NOT 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251 -4200 HARTOLDMON0034907 Foshee & Turner REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 15 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 STATE OF ALABAMA) COUNTY OF JEFFERSON) I, SUSAN MASTERS GOLDMAN, Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public, hereby certify that the above and foregoing deposition was taken down by me on Computerized Stenotype, and the questions and answers thereto were transcribed by me, and that the foregoing represents a true and correct transcript of the deposition given by said witness upon said hearing. I further certify that I am neither attorney or counsel for, nor related to or employed by any of the parties to the action in which this deposition is taken. SUSAN MASTERS GOLDMAN CSR and Notary Public 220 Park Place Tower Birmingham, Alabama 35203 Telephone (205) 251-4200 i -Ronr8Rft.r)FPn LASER PRINTED HARTOLDMON0034908