Document B890JgJZZQ3XYLDj4Qnq7xkXw

FILE NAME: Foseco (FOS) DATE: 2013 July 23 DOC#: FOS002 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Legal - Deposition of Anthony Money ANTHONY MONEY 1 Plaintiffs: 2 BRENDA IHLENFELD, Administrator of the Estate 3 of WILLIAM IHLENFELD 4 v. 5 Defendants: CROWN CORK & SEAL COMPANY, 6 INC., al. --------------------------------- PHILADEPHIA COUNTY COURT OF COMMON PLEAS CIVIL TRIAL DIVISION No. 0269 JUNE TERM 2011 ASBESTOS LITIGATION > CO --------------------------------- Plaintiffs: PHILADELPHIA COUNTY 9 NANCY FORD, Administrator of COURT OF COMMON PLEAS the Estate of EDWARD FORD CIVIL TRIAL DIVISION 10 v. No. 2965 11 Defendants: MARCH TERM 2010 12 CROWN CORK & SEAL COMPANY, INC., 13 --------- ------------------------ ASBESTOS LITIGATION 'k - k 'k - k - k 'k 'k 'k 'k 'k 'k 'k 'k 'k - k - k 'k 'k 'k 'k 'k 'k - Jc - k - k 'k 'k - jt- k - k 'k 'k 'k 'k 'k 'k 'k 'k 'k 'k - k 'k 'k 'k - k - k 14 THE VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF ANTHONY MONEY 15 July 23rd, 2013 'k 'k -k -Jc 'it'ic 'k 'k 'k 'k 'k 'k -'k -k 'ic 'k 'k -k 'k -k 'k 'k -k -k -k 'k 'if'k 'Jf'k 'Je 'k 'k -Jf'k -if'k -ir-k -ic -J'r-Jf-k -Jr-ir-k 16 VIDEOTAPED ORAL DEPOSITION OF ANTHONY 17 MONEY, w h i c h wa s t a k e n in th e a b o v e - s t y l e d a n d 18 n u m b e r e d c a u s e on the 2 3 r d da y of July, 2013, 19 f r o m 10:02. to 4:37 p.m., b e f o r e J a n i c e M. Kocek, 20 CSR, CLR, in and for the State of Illinois, 21 reported by machine shorthand, at the law offices 22 of H e p l e r B r o o m LLC, 30 N. L a S a l l e Street, 23 Suite 2900, Chicago, Illinois, pursu a n t to the 24 ' I l l i n o i s R u l e s of C i v i l P r o c e d u r e a n d the 25 provisions stated on the record or attached hereto. Page 1 HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLIHGATION.COM ANTHONY MONEY 1 APPEARANCES 2 FOR THE PLAINTIFF: 3 MR. CHRIS PANATIER SIMON GREENSTONE PANATIER BARTLETT, P.C. 4 3232 McKinney Avenue Suite 610 5 Dallas, Texas 75204 214.276.7680 6 cp a n a tie r@ sg p b la w .c o m 7 FOR THE DEFENDANT FOSECO, INC.: 8 MR. GEORGE (BEAU) L. INABINET, JR. MARON MARVEL BRADLEY & ANDERSON LLC 9 438 King Street Suite 300 10 Charleston, South Carolina 29403 843.501.2701 11 b i@ m a ron m a rve l. co m 12 -and- 13 MR. ERIC J. KADISH MARON MARVEL BRADLEY & ANDERSON LLC 14 1717 Arch Street Suite 3710 15 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215.231.7100 16 e jk @ m a ro n m a rv e l. c o m 17 FOR THE DEFENDANT MCCANN SHIELDS PAINT CO.: 18 MR. GREGORY C. SCHEURING, Jr. MS. JONI MANGINO-INSUL 19 (by teleconference) ZIMMER KUNZ PLLC 20 600 Grant Street 3300 U.S. Steel Tower 21 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15219-2702 412.281.8000 22 sc h e u rin g @ z k la w .c o m 23 24 25 APPEARANCES (Continued) FOR THE DEFENDANT FERRO ENGINEERING: MS. THERESA M. MULLANEY KENT/MC8RIDE 1617 JFK Boulevard Suite 1200 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 267.702.1718 tmullaney@kentmcbride.com FOR THE DEFENDANT UNIVERSAL REFRACTORIES: MR. JOHN J. DUGAN SALMON RICCHEZZA SINGER & TURCHI, LLP Tower Commons 123 Egg Harbor Road Suite 406 Sewell, New Jersey 08080 856.842.0781 jdugan@srstlaw.com FOR THE DEFENDANT JOHN CRANE, INC.: MR. THOMAS J. BURNS O'Connell, Tivin, Miller & Burns, LLC 135 South LaSalle Street Suite 2300 Chicago, Illinois 60654 312.256.8800 tjb@otmblaw.com FOR THE DEFENDANT VANDERBILT MINERALS: MR. JESSE SMITH (by teleconference) SWARTZ CAMPBELL 50 S. 16th Street 28th Floor Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102 215.299.4395 jsmith@swartzcampbell.com ALSO PRESENT: Cary Davldow, videographer. 2 (Pages 2 to 5) Page 2 INDEX PAGE Appearances.....................................2,3 ANTHONY MONEY Examination by Mr. Panatier............... 8 Examination by Ms. Mulianey..............339 Signature and Changes.......................... 344 Reporter's Certificate......................... 346 EXHIBITS NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE No. 1 CD produced by Foseco 32 No. 2 Plaintiffs' Notice to Take the 32 Oral & Videotaped Deposition of Foseco, Inc. 12 No. 3 Letter dated May 27, 1963 47 Bates 1007 No. 4 Interoffice Correspondence dated 51 January 23, 1964 Bates 0284 No. 5 Letter dated April 3, 1964 from 55 15 The Cape Asbestos Company Limited No. 6 Letter dated April 7,1364 56 16 Bates 0312-1314 No. 7 Foseco International Limited 70 "Co-Ordinated Research & Development Progress Report, April 1965, Bates 0315-0344 No. 8 Research & Development Report 77 19 Silicosis and Asbestosis Hazards Associated with the Manufacture 20 and Use of Profax, Bates 0350-0366 No. 9 Foseco Brochure 1965 109 Bates Kradel 0011-0048 No. 10 Foseco International Limited 120 Research & Development Report No. 235 The Use of Synthetic Inorganic Fibers to Replace Asbestos in Profax Bates FOS-AS 1897-1901 No. 11 Foseco Research Project - 134 Profax Development 25 Bates 0402-0403 Page 3 1 EXHIBITS (Continued) 2 NUMBER DESCRIPTION 0a No. 12 Letter dated October 1,1968 4 Bates 0490-0491 No. 13 Steelworks Bulletin, Asbestos 5 and Health - A Problem for Europe, December 1969 6 Bates 0710-0715 No. 14 Report on Visit to Europe - 7 August 27-31, 1970, Foseco International, Ltd. 8 Bates 0718-0723 No. 15 Inter-Company and Inter- 9 Departmental Correspondence, February 24,1971 10 Bates 0805 No. 16 Letter dated February 26,1971 11 Bates 0800 PAGE 137 147 158 167 169 No. 17 Letter dated June 7,1971 172 12 Bates 0950, 0424 No. 18 Letter dated July 2, 1971 13 Bates 0951-0952 No. 19 Letter dated February 23,1972 14 Bates 1042 174 181 No. 20 Letter dated March 24, 1972 183 15 Bates FOS-AS 2368 No. 21 Letter dated April 4, 1972 188 16 Subject: Toxicity of Profax, Proflex & Ferrux Ingredients 17 No. 22 Letter dated May 22,1972 201 FOS-OO 3651-3652 18 No. 23 Material Safety & Health Data Sheet 212 EP-3999A/Profax, Bates 1223-1224 19 No. 24 Material Safety 8i Health Data Sheet 218 Proflex (G-3), Bates 1073-1074 20 No. 25 Air Sampling Survey and Noise Survey 220 June 13,1972, Bates 1157-1163 21 No. 26 Letter dated June 27, 1972 with 227 attached Asbestos Fiber and Mineral 22 Dust Concentrations in Air Tests Conducted at Foseco, Incorporated 23 Bales 1128-1156 24 25 HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATTON.COM Page 4 Page 5 ANTHONY MONEY 1 EXHIBITS (Continued) 2 NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE 3 No. 27 Rules and Regulations, Federal 235 4 Register Vol. 37, No. 110, June 7,1972 5 Part 1910 - Occupational Safety and Health Standards, Standard 6 for Exposure to Asbestos Dust No. 28 Inter-Company and Inter-Departmental 245 7 Correspondence, June 28,1972 Bates FOS-OO 3843 8 No. 29 Letter dated July 14,1972 248 Bates 1186 9 No. 30 Letter dated July 11,1972 251 Bates 1184 10 No. 31 Letter dated August 1, 1972 254 Bates 1189 11 No. 32 Removal of Silica and Asbestos 257 from Foseco Insulating Products 12 (Profax, Fabrex, Kalminex) Bates 1489 13 No. 33 Inter-Company and Inter-Departmental 265 Correspondence, October 16,1973 14 Bates 2727-2728 No. 34 Minutes of Meeting, Update of 268 15 Progress on Non-Asbestos Program, Wednesday, July 18,1973 16 Bates 1621-1623 No. 35 Inter-Company and Inter-Departmental 277 17 Correspondence, August 14,1973 Bates 1669 18 No. 36 Inter-Company and Inter-Departmental 279 Correspondence, October 12,1973 19 Bates FOS-OO 1918, October 12,1973 No. 37 Inter-Company and Inter-Departmental 282 20 Correspondence, Foseco, In c July 24,1974, 21 Subject: Asbestos Handling No. 38 Letter dated September 26, 1974 291 22 Bates FOS-OO 887-892 No. 39 Inter-Company and Inter-Departmental 295 23 Correspondence, August 9,1974 Bates 2872 24 25 1 EXHIBITS (Continued) 2 NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE 3 No. 40 Handwritten memo, July 19, 1975, 295 4 Subject: "A brief analysis of asbestos usage in the plant for the past two 5 months is listed below:" FOS-AS 2390-2392 6 No. 41 Citation to Foseco-Minsep, 299 Incorporated, 9/2 to 11/13,1975 7 Bates 2516-2517 No. 42 Citation to Foseco Incorporated 300 8 Bates FOS-OO 3573-3578, and 2784-2785 No. 43 Letter dated June 25, 1976 307 9 Bates FOS-OO 0833-0834 No. 44 Inter-Company and Inter-Departmental 310 10 Correspondence, July 2,1976 Bates FOS-AS 1896 11 No. 45 Letter dated September 14, 1976 315 Bates 2449 12 No. 46 Letter dated October 7, 1993 324 From John L. Reyes to Stephen C. Foley 13 No. 47 "Profax System of Hot Topping 326 Produces Betters Ingots" 14 Bates Krade! 0087-106 No. 48 "Foseco, Quality Metallurgical 326 15 Products Processes and Systems for Treating Molten Metals, Cores, 16 Molds and Dies Foseco, Inc. 1969 17 No. 49 Foseco, Steel Mill Products 326 Division, Profax Hot Top Systems, 18 Expendable Low Volume Foseco, Inc. 1967 19 Bates 0410-0413 No. 50 Profax Systems of Hot Topping 328 20 Produces Belter Ingots Bates Kradei 00107-132 21 No. 51 Exhibit A, Armco Steel, Butler, PA, 331 "Sales Summaries" for 1967 through 22 1975 Loyola J. Kradel v Foseco, et al. 23 24 25 Page 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 8 PROCEEDINGS T H E VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. Today's date is July 23rd, 2013. And the tim e is 10:02 a.m . T h is is th e beginning o f T a p e No. 1 in th e d ep o sitio n o f A ntho ny Money. W ill the court reporter sw ear in the witness, please. (W itness sworn.) ANTHONY MONEY, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was exam ined and testified as follows: EX A M IN A T IO N BY MR. PANATIER: Q. Sir, can you please go ahead and state your nam e for us. A. M y nam e is Anthony Money. Q. All right. And, Mr. Money, do you understand that today you are the corporate representative for Foseco? A. Yes. Q. This is som ething you've done before, correct? A. Yes. Q. All right. And you understand that Page 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 9 when you are the corporate representative for a company, that means you speak for the company, correct? A. Correct. Q. All right. You have been the person that has spoken for Foseco on about how many occasions, w hether it be at deposition or at trial? A. Probably a dozen. Q. Okay. When w as the last tim e you were deposed on behalf of Foseco? A. I ca n 't rem em ber th e date. It w as several years ago. Q. How long did you w ork for Foseco? A. I join ed Foseco in 1972, and I'm working for Foseco now. Q. Okay. You're a current em ployee of Foseco, then? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Foseco is an international com pany, right? A. Foseco, Inc., is not an international company, no. Q. It is part o f an international group of com panies, correct? HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM 3 (Pages 6 to 9) ANTHONY MONEY 1 A. Tim e frame. W hen are you talking 2 about? W hat tim e frame? 3 Q. All right. Well, how about right 4 now? 5 A. It's not part of a group of 6 com panies. 7 Q. Okay. W here is it based? 8 A. It's based in Charleston, South 9 Carolina. 10 Q. All right. W hen you started in 11 1972, w h at w as you r title? 12 A. Corporate controller. 13 Q. That's a -- basically a financial 14 role, correct? 15 A. T h at is correct. 16 Q. Have your responsibilities always 17 sort of been on the financial side? 18 A. Again, tim e frame. 19 Q. The tim e fram e is always. If that's 20 not correct, then you can say that and I'll 21 rephrase it. 22 A. Let me answ er it this w ay then. I 23 w as financial until April 1974. And it's -- it 24 w as still financial in '74. I took over som e 25 of the treasury functions, which I'm -- that's Page 10 Page 12 1 health and safety? 2 A. No. 3 MR. SMITH: Excuse me. I apologize. 4 Is there any way we can get the m icrophone 5 a little closer to the w itness? I'm having 6 trouble hearing his responses. 7 MR. PANATIER: It's pretty close. 8 M aybe you could just keep up your voice a 9 little bit. I'm going to m ove the phone a 10 little bit closer. 11 MR. SMITH: Thank you. I hear you 12 perfectly. The witness ju st seem s a little 13 far away. 14 MR. PANATIER: M y elocution is 15 flaw less, so that's probably why. All 16 right. W e'll try that. 17 MR. SMITH: And just can I get a 18 read-back of the last tw o answ ers with 19 respect to the questions o f him being 20 involved in health and safety and th e 21 subsequent question? 22 (The reporter read the record 23 as requested.) 24 MR. SMITH: Thank you. 25 Page 11 Page 13 1 w hy I'm a bit hesitant. I'm assum ing treasury, 1 BY MR. PANATIER: 2 in your determ ination, is finance. So I took 2 Q. Sir, starting in 1962, Foseco 3 on that role in April 1974. 3 developed som e asbestos-containing insulating 4 Q. All right. Have you ever done 4 boards com m only referred to as hot tops, 5 anything outside of the financial side or 5 correct? 6 treasury side? 6 A. They started w ork on developing 7 A. In 1 9 8 0 ,1 took over all the 7 those proj-, projects, yes. 8 corporate functions, like secretarial, things 8 Q. One of those boards that contained 9 like that. So my background or my experience 9 asbestos w as called Profax, and that w as 10 has been in financial w ith som e adm inistrative 10 available fo r com m ercial sale in 1965, co rrect? 11 functions. 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. Okay. To this day, could you say 12 Q. There was another variation o f that 13 th at your entire history at Foseco has been 13 board called Proflex w hich w e n t available 14 financial and administrative? 14 co m m ercia lly in 1969, right? 15 A. Yes. 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. Okay. Have you ever had any 16 Q. Okay. They were essentially the 17 responsibilities fo r health and safety? 17 sam e product but with ju st som e different 18 A. No. 18 attributes fo r different applications; is that 19 Q. Have you ever had any 19 fair? 20 responsibilities for regulatory com pliance on 20 A. Correct. 21 health and safety issues? 21 Q. Ail right. Starting in 1965 when 22 A. No. 23 Q. Have you ever been the person who 24 served as a liaison or som eone w ho com municated 22 the Profax insulating boards m ade by Foseco 23 becam e available com m ercially, is it fa ir to 24 say they contained approxim ately 4 percent 25 with any regulatory bodies on the issues of 25 am osite asbestos and up to 4 percent 4 (Pages 10 to 13) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 14 Page 16 1 chrysotile? 1 for each ingot mold and each custom ers' 2 A. No. 2 location was different, but w e, w e used som e 3 Q. Okay. W ill you go ahead and tell me 4 w hat the correct numbers are? 5 A. W hen w e first developed the product 6 fo r co m m ercial sale in 1965, it's my 3 standard recipes. 4 Q. G e n era lly sp ea kin g -- and I 've 5 looked over your interrogatory answers. 6 Generally speaking, is it fair to say that the 7 understanding th e percent o f asbestos in w as 7 m ajority or the, the m ain bulk of the hot tops 8 1.75 percent, and it w a s a m o site a sb e sto s in 8 sold by Foseco contained -- over the years 9 1965. 9 contained approxim ately 4 percent am osite 10 Q. So in 1965, the insulating board hot 10 asbestos and up to 1 percent chrysotile 11 tops, w e'll ju s t call th em h o t tops, w e re ab o ut 11 asb e sto s? 12 1 percent asbestos. W hen did they - w hen did 12 MR. INABINET: Objection to form. 13 that percentage change? 13 BY MR. PANATIER: 14 A. It, it changed -- I'm not sure of 14 Q. A ctually, le t m e rep h rase it. 15 the dates. I know that it w as shortly after 15 Is it fair to say that over the 16 1965. So I'm not sure o f the, of th e date. 16 years that Foseco w a s selling these boards from 17 And then it did increase to w hat you 17 '65 - sh o rtly a fte r '65 until asb esto s w a s 18 asked me. It did increase to 4 percent, w hich 18 rem oved, the m ajority o f those boards that w ere 19 w as - it could have contained 4 percent 19 sold contained either 4 percent am osite o r 3 20 am osite, or it could have contained 3 percent 20 percent am osite and up to 1 percent chrysotile? 21 am osite and 1 percent chrysotile. 21 MR. INABINET: Excuse me, Chris. 22 Q. Okay. So we'll get this straight 22 W e're taking about Profax? 23 then. So im m ediately after Foseco started 23 MR. PANATIER: Uh-huh. 24 selling hot tops, they w ere around 1 percent 24 MR. INABINET: Okay. 25 asbestos? 25 TH E W ITNESS: It w as 4 percent until 1 A. 1.75. Page 15 1 w e started th e asbestos-free, and then it Page 17 2 Q. Okay. 1.75 asbestos. 2 reduced from 4 percent down to 0 at the 3 Shortly after that, they increased 3 end. So up until - from '66 onwards, if 4 the am ount o f asbestos; is that right? 4 you like, until the asbestos-free program 5 A. Correct. 5 kicked in, it w as 4 percent. But then it 6 Q. And they increased it to 6 gradually cam e dow n in, in increm ents. 7 approxim ately 4 percent am osite asbestos or 3 7 BY MR. PANATIER: 8 percent am osite asbestos and up to 1 percent 8 Q. W hen was the earliest time that 9 chrysotile asbestos; is that fair? 9 Foseco had a viable asbestos-free substitute 10 A. That's correct. 10 fo r asbestos-containing Profax? 11 Q. All right. Are those percentages 11 A. It w as different by account. The - 12 you just gave me the ones that remained 12 w e had som e, so m e one o r tw o products w hich w e 13 basically co nsistent until asbesto s w a s rem oved 13 w ent asb esto s-free early, but it w as o nly fo r 14 from the product? 14 specific applications. But the first big 15 A. It rem ained consistent, but it 15 breakthrough for a m ajor account w as in 1973. 16 didn't go from 4 percent down to 0. W e got 16 Q. W ho was that? 17 som e recipes and products w e could ch an ge 17 A. It w as Arm co Middletown. 18 fairly, fairly quickly. But som e w e tried to 18 Q. And when you say there was a 19 reduce th e am o u n t o f asbestos. So it d id n 't go 19 breakthrough, w hat w as that? 20 from 4 to 0. It went from 4, to make an 20 A. The, the practice that Arm co 21 exam ple, to 2 to 0. 21 M iddletow n did is they let their ingot m olds 22 Q. Okay. There were various different 22 cool down to am bient tem peratures, w hich w as a 23 dim ensions and recipes for different 23 different practice than other mills. And so 24 applications, right, for different custom ers? 24 w hat w e could do is we developed a product 25 A. There was different specifications 25 w hich contained paper, w hich w e could put in HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGAT10N.COM 5 (Pages 14 to 17) ANTHONY MONEY Page 18 Page 20 1 those ingot molds, and it would work. 1 A. Sorry. Can you repeat the question 2 But if and when we tried at other 2 again? 3 accounts, because they didn't let the molds 3 Q. Sure. Does Foseco agree that all 4 cool down to am bient tem perature, they were 4 form s of asbestos contain m esotheliom a? 5 hot, it burned the, the product. 5 MR. KADISH: W hat tim e fram e, Chris? 6 Q. So depending on w h at a steel mill 6 MR. PANATIER: Right now. 7 did and how they m ade their steel, you m ay or 7 THE W ITNESS: I, I think today that 8 may not have been able to use an asbestos 8 Foseco Is aw a re th a t a sb e sto s p o te n tia lly 9 substitute at different tim es? 9 could cause m esotheliom a, yes. 10 A. That's correct. 10 BY MR. PANATIER: 11 Q. Okay. So how much of Foseco's total 11 Q. And does Foseco acknow ledge that all 12 business in term s o f percenta ge revenue, if you 12 com m ercial form s o f asbestos, chrysotile, 13 w an t to do it o r so m e o th e r w ay, w ere th ese 13 am osite, and crocidolite, as o f today, they 14 asbestos products? 14 adm it that ail form s cause m esotheliom a? 15 A. I, I d o n 't know. 15 A. That's the understanding today, 16 Q. W as it a big part o f Foseco's 16 correct. 17 business? W as it a sm all part? 17 Q. Okay. Does Foseco acknow ledge that 18 A. Initially it w as a sm all part, but 18 there is no known safe level o f exposure to 19 it grew as we, as w e w ent through the '60s. 19 asbestos? 20 Q. All right. And by 19 - let's say 20 A. I, I ca n 't a n sw e r th at. 21 by 1975, can you characterize for the jury 21 Q. Is there som eone a t Foseco w ho is 22 about how much of Foseco's business w as m ade up 22 better suited to answ er th at question? 23 through the sale o f these asbestos hot tops? 23 A. The one that, that's - that has -- 24 A. I, I don't know. I don't know. 24 has the technical background is a Mr. Ted Jago, 25 Q. Okay. Is there anybody else who 25 w ho's the one that I believe w ould be the one Page 19 Page 21 1 knows better than you? 1 more, m ore able to answ er that question. 2 A. Probably not, no. 2 Q. Okay. Now, the com pany put you up 3 Q. And at that time you were on the 3 as the corporate representative fo r this 4 financial side and moving into treasury, right? 4 deposition. So you're the person I have to 5 A. Correct. 5 ask. But if you don't know, that's fine. 6 Q. And you don't know the answer to 6 So you're the com pany today. You 7 that question? 7 understand that, right? 8 A. I don't know the dollar amount, no. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Well, w hat about ju st a percentage 9 Q. Right. Okay. 10 o f total revenue? 10 So today, the com pany's an sw er is 11 A. Well, that's a different question, 11 you don't have an a n sw e r to th a t qu estio n as to 12 because you're saying asbestos containing and 12 w h eth e r o r not th ere's a kno w n sa fe level o f 13 you m entioned '75, and w e had a lot o f accounts 13 exposure to asbestos; is th a t fair? 14 converted over to asbestos-free in '75. So 14 A. That's fair. 15 it's difficult to answ er. 15 Q. Okay. Have you ever spoken with 16 Q. Okay. Well, let's go to this. 16 Mr. Jago about that issue? 17 Total sales o f Profax as o f 1975. 17 A. No. 18 A. I, I don't know. 18 Q. Okay. Prior to releasing asbestos 19 Q. Okay. W hat about total sales of 19 hot top s fo r sale to th e public, did F oseco 20 Profax and Proflex as o f 1975? Do you know 20 conduct any tests on the ability of those 21 what percentage of the, of the com pany's total 21 products in the foreseeab le use to release 22 sales cam e from those two products? 22 asbestos fibers? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Does Foseco agree that all form s of 25 asbestos cause m esothelioma? 23 A. There was a test done by Ted Jago, 24 and he took the, the Profax boards and subject 25 them - subjected the boards to the sam e 6 (Pages 18 to 21) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLIT1GAT10N.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 22 Page 24 1 tem perature conditions they would have 1 Q. Did they do another test? 2 experienced in a steel mill. 2 A. I don't know w hether they did or 3 And his conclusion after analyzing 3 not. All I know is that I -- the only thing I, 4 the results is that the asbestos fiber had been 4 I rem em ber is th a t Jago told m e that they 5 burnt up. There w ere no longer asbestos fiber. 5 agreed with his findings. 6 Q. Okay. So I have a few follow-up 6 Q. Okay. So you have no evidence that 7 questions to that. First o f all, he never 7 Rutgers did another test, right? 8 w rote down any of his results, to your 8 A. Correct. 9 knowledge, right? 9 Q. You have no evidence that w hat 10 A. Not -- no, I don't think he did. 10 Mr. Jago said he did w as ever independently 11 Q. He didn't have a report that showed 11 verified by anybody else, right? 12 any o f these results, correct? 12 A. I don't know w hat you mean. W asn't 13 A. No. And when I, I asked him that, 13 R utgers independently verified? 14 he said it w asn't a problem, so I didn't w rite 14 Q. O n ly If th e y te ste d it. 15 it down. 15 A. Yeah, and I don't, I don't know 16 Q. Okay. You personally talked to 16 w hether they did or not, w hether it w as a - - 1 17 Mr. Jago, and he told you, "I happened to do a 17 d o n 't know . 18 study of the board to see how m uch asbestos w as 18 Q. Okay. And m y initial question was 19 left"? 19 did Foseco conduct any testing for the release 20 A. Yes. 2 0 o f asbestos in th e foreseeable use o f its 21 Q. And did he tell you w hat m ethod of 21 products before it offered them for sale. 22 m icroscopy he used to look at the results? 22 Is it you r testim ony that Mr. Jago 23 A. He ju st said he looked through a 23 did this test you're speaking about before it 24 m icroscope. 24 ever w ent on sale com m ercially? 25 Q. So he didn't say, "I looked through 25 A. I don't know. Ted could not Page 23 Page 25 1 an electron microscope, did he"? 1 rem em ber th e e x a ct date. He tho u g h t it w a s in 2 A. He m ay have done, but if he did, 2 '65, but I don't know w hen the exact date was. 3 he -- it w ouldn't mean anything to me. 3 Q. Now -- okay. I'm sorry for 4 Q. Okay. W as he an electron 4 interrupting. 5 m icroscopist, to your knowledge? 5 Now, in '65, the product only 6 A. No, I, I don't have an answ er to 6 contained 1.75 percent asbestos, right? 7 your question. 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Do you know w hether o r not you can 8 Q. The com pany then doubled the am ount 9 see all the asbestos fibers that are present 9 of asbestos shortly thereafter, correct? 10 through a light m icroscope? 10 A. Correct. 11 A. I don't know. 11 Q. Did Mr. Jago do another test? 12 Q. The bottom line is we only have 12 A. No. 13 Mr. Jago telling you o r perhaps o thers th a t he 13 Q. Okay. You also said that Mr. Jago 14 did this study and that it wasn't a problem, 14 did a test after to look fo r how much asbestos 15 right? 15 w as left a fte r it w a s heated to the tem perature 16 A. Well, w e -- the second part to that 16 you w ould expect to see in steel, steel 17 answ er is that when Dr. Phoenix joined in '67 17 applications, right? 18 and he started looking at the, the products - 18 A. Yes. 19 he w as in charge o f steel mill -- he, he 19 Q. Did he ever do a test, to your 20 obviously had a conversation with, with 21 Mr. Jago, and he got Mr. Jago to com m unicate 20 knowledge, or anybody on behalf of Foseco o f 21 the installation o f the board into the steel 22 with Rutgers College to do, you know, to do a 23 sim ilar test or to discuss the test with him. 22 molds? 23 A. No. 24 And the response that cam e back is th at they 24 Q. Okay. Did anyone ever do a test, to 25 agreed with Mr. Jago's findings. 25 your knowledge, o f the blow out of the dust HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM 7 (Pages 22 to 25) ANTHONY MONEY Page 26 Page 28 1 afterwards on a m olding platform or a platform 1 A. Yes. 2 w here you would install -- 2 Q. You could pneum atic nail gun them , 3 A. No. 3 right? 4 Q. Okay. So to be, to be very clear, 4 A. Yes. 5 the only testing that Foseco is aw are o f that 5 Q. Okay.. W h at other w ays w ere there? 6 ever took place w as som ething Mr. Jago did, 6 A. You could fit the boards in so th a t 7 w here he looked through som e sort o f m icroscope 7 they were an exact fit for the, for the top of 8 at the rem nants o f Foseco hot tops after being 8 the ingot mold. 9 heated to steel mill tem peratures before Foseco 9 Q. So basically g et them very precisely 10 doubled the am ount o f asbestos in the hot tops, 10 m easured so they w ould push in w ith enough 11 correct? 11 ten sio n , I guess, along th e w a lls to ju s t hold 12 A. I'm not sure on that. I know you 12 in th ere? 13 said It w as '65, and I d o n 't know w hen. I said 13 A. Correct. 14 ea rlier I don't know w hen they increased it to 14 Q. Okay. How was it done at Arm co 15 4 percent. 15 Butler, to you r know ledge? 16 Q. W ell, earlier you told me when the 16 A. I'm not sure. 17 product first w ent on sale com m ercially it had 17 Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not 18 1.75 percent. 18 they used the nail guns? 19 A. Correct. 19 A. I d o n 't kn o w fo r sure, no. 20 Q. And it first w ent on sale 20 Q. Did Foseco at any tim e go out and do 21 co m m ercially in 1965, correct? 21 any air m onitoring for the Installation of 22 A. Correct. 22 Foseco hot tops in steel m ills? 23 Q. So m ore likely than not, if Mr. Jago 23 A. No. 24 did th e te st in 1965, he w as testing a Foseco 24 Q. Okay. 25 product th a t had 1.75 asbestos in it. 25 A. W e -- the, the steel m ills Page 27 Page 29 1 A. Unless they changed it over to 4 1 them selves, they, they w ere big com panies. And 2 before, before the test. I'm not - - 1 don't 2 they, they were m onitoring or they knew what 3 know. I know they initial set up, as I said, 4 at 1.75 and then changed it to 4. 3 every product that we shipped, w hat it 4 contained. And they would be the ones looking 5 Q. Okay. In the foreseeable use of 6 Foseco hot tops, there are really kind o f two 5 at their, their safety of their em ployees. 6 Q. I'm ju st going to object to 7 general categories of use. There's the 8 installation and then there's the leftover 7 nonresponsive. 8 My question was, did Foseco ever 9 remnants of the hot top after the steel has 9 conduct any air m onitoring during the use of 10 been poured and cooled som ew hat, correct? 11 A. Correct. 10 th eir hot to p s in a steel m ill a p p lica tio n? 11 A. No. 12 Q. All right. And there are folks that 13 install th e hot tops into the m old before the 14 steel is poured, right? 15 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. Now, sir, do you agree that 13 it's a m an u factu rer's jo b to sell a p ro du ct 14 that w orks and w orks safely? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And then there are the folks, and it 16 Q. Okay. Do you agree that a 17 m ay be the sam e folks, w ho take apart th e m old 18 o ff o f th e ingot and then they get rid o f the 19 leftover hot top material, correct? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. Foseco understands that there were a 22 m ultitude of different ways to attach the hot 23 tops with inside the mold, correct? 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. You could clip them, right? 17 m anufacture has an obligation to provide 18 accurate safety inform ation about its products? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Do you agree that people w ho use 21 those products rely upon the m anufacturers to 22 provide accurate safety inform ation about the 23 products? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Okay. As a general rule, does 8 (Pages 26 to 29) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 30 Page 32 1 Foseco agree that to be useful safety 1 Q. Okay. Can you give m e som e general 2 inform ation has to be accurate? It can't be 2 categories ju st so w e can have an understanding 3 m isleading? 3 of what you know? 4 A. W ell, the, the -- as I said earlier, 4 A. It w as, it was sales. It was 5 every product that we shipped to th e steel 5 reports, w hatever w as pertinent to this 6 mill, they insisted on every supplier giving 6 deposition. 7 them ingredients of every product. 7 Q. Did you read any o f the depositions 8 Q. Okay. Here -- I'm sorry. My 8 taken in the Ford case? 9 question was this. For safety inform ation to 9 A. Yes. 10 be useful, right, so people can take 10 Q. Okay. W hich depositions? 11 p recautions o r w h ate ve r th e y 're going to do, it 11 A. I read the Rausch deposition, I 12 has to be accurate safety inform ation, right? 12 think it was, and the Ihlenfeld. 13 A. Yes. 13 Q. Okay. 14 Q. Okay. A m anufacturer should never 14 MR. PANATIER: Just for the record, 15 m islead the public or anybody about the dangers 15 w e'll m ake this -- Foseco has produced a CD 16 o f its products, true? 16 o f d o cu m e n ts. T h a t w ill be E x h ib it 1. 17 A. Correct. 17 MR. INABINET: Sure. 18 Q. And a m anufacturer should never 18 MR. PANATIER: And I'll m ake the 19 dow nplay any hazards o f its products, right? 19 notice Exhib it 2. 20 A. Correct. 20 (M oney Deposition Exhibit Nos. 1 and 2 21 Q. Are you being com pensated in 21 w ere m arked for identification.) 22 addition to your Foseco salary to do this work, 22 BY MR. PANATTER: 23 this litigation support w ork? 23 Q. So, sir, do you agree -- does Foseco 24 A. No. 24 agree -- w hen I say "you," I'm asking Foseco. 25 Q. Okay. Do you ow n stock in Foseco? 25 You know that. Page 31 Page 33 1 A. No. 1 A. I understand. 2 Q. All right. You ju st have a salary? 2 Q. Does Foseco agree that to the extent 3 A. Yes. 3 there is a substitute m aterial for a hazardous 4 Q. Do you get a bonus? 4 m aterial that a com pany should alw ays use the 5 A. No. 5 substitute if they can? 6 Q. Okay. W hat is your current salary? 6 A. Correct. 7 MR. SMITH: Excuse me. I did not 7 Q. Okay. And you gave us an exam ple, I 8 get the answer to whether Mr. Money was 8 think it w as Arm co Middletown, right? 9 being com pensated in addition to his Foseco 9 A. Correct. 10 salary. 10 Q. W here, based on how they cooled down 11 MR. PANATTER: The answ er w as "no." 11 th e ir steel, Foseco w as ab le to p u t paper in 12 MR. SMITH: Thank you. 12 instead o f asbestos; is th a t right? 13 BY PANATIER: 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. W hat is your current salary? 14 Q. Okay. For the places that didn't 15 A. My current salary is -- I'm not sure 15 cool in the sam e w ay that A rm co M iddletow n did, 16 exactly, but it's a little over $300,000. 16 and you w ere still selling asbestos-containing 17 MR. KADISH: Per year? 17 hot tops to those other places, w hat ingredient 18 THE WITNESS: Per year. 18 ultim ately replaced asbestos for those 19 BY MR. PANATTER: 19 applications? 20 Q. Can you tell me w hat docum ents, if 20 A. It was wollastonite. 21 any, you review ed in preparation fo r this 22 deposition? 21 Q. W ollastonite? 22 A. Correct. 23 A. I don't understand specifically your 24 question. I reviewed docum ents that w e were 23 Q. To your knowledge, does wollastonite 24 cause m esotheliom a? 25 asked to disclose. 25 A. No, no. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLmGATTON.COM 9 (Pages 30 to 33) ANTHONY MONEY 1 Q. No. Does w ollastonite cause lung 2 fibrosis? 3 A. No. 4 Q. W here did they purchase the 5 wollastonite from? 6 A. I t w as Interpace. I th in k it w a s in 7 Canada. 8 Q. W ollastonite is a type o f m ineral, 9 correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. In the years that Foseco used 12 wollastonite, did they ever have any health 13 com plaints as far as lung disease goes? 14 A. No. 15 Q. All right. How long has 16 wollastonite been around? 17 A. I have no idea. 18 Q. I mean technically speaking, 19 probably m illions o f years since it's a rock, 2 0 right? 21 A. I, I don't know anything about 2 2 wollastonite. 23 Q. W hen was the first tim e that Foseco 24 tried out wollastonite as a substitute for 25 asbestos? Page 34 Page 36 1 than one team , right? 2 A. Right. 3 Q. So can you tell m e the identity of 4 all the people on all these team s that w ere 5 looking for substitutes for asbestos prior to 6 73? 7 A. No. I can give you som e names, but 8 I don't know the nam es. W e had our purchasing 9 agent, Frank Bilton, he w as looking around to 10 see w hat available fibers w ere available. 11 W e had Ted Jago looking at w hat 12 fibers w ould -- could be a possible 13 replacem ent. He g ot them in and tested them . 14 And he didn't test them aii nim seif. He had -- 15 there w as people underneath him , Don Butler, 16 fo r exam ple. 17 Q. W hat did Don Butler do? 18 A. He w as the, - one o f the technical 19 people w orking fo r Ted Jago. 20 Q. Frank Bilton w as a purchasing agent? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. So he purchased raw m aterials for 23 you guys? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. He w asn't a scientist or anything? Page 35 Page 37 1 A. I believe it was around 7 3 , 7 4 . 1 A. NO. 2 Q. To your knowledge, was there 2 Q. He d id n 't actua lly te st the 3 anything that prevented Foseco from 3 products, right? 4 investigating wollastonite as a substitute for 4 A. No. 5 asbestos prior to that? 5 Q. That was up to Ted Jago and Don 6 A. Know ledge. It's -- w e d id n 't know 6 Butler? 7 about wollastonite. If we had known about 7 A. Correct. 8 wollastonite, we'd have looked at it sooner. 8 Q. Anybody else? 9 Q. Can you tell us what efforts Foseco 9 A. That's the ones I can rem em ber. 10 undertook to investigate m inerals like 10 Q. Okay. So as far as w hat Foseco can 11 w ollastonite prior to 7 3 ? 11 te stify to today, th e tea m s th a t w e re looking 12 A. Yeah. There was, there was teams 12 fo r asbesto s replacem ents p rio r to 7 3 w ere 13 looking at w hatever w e could use as a 13 th ree people, right? 14 substitute. W e looked at som e mineral wool. 14 A. No, those three - I could rem em ber 15 W e looked at Headman fiber. W e looked at 15 three nam es, and m aybe there was, there was 16 various ones trying to com e up with an adequate 16 others. I'm not sure. 17 replacem ent for asbestos. 17 Q. W ere you engaged in looking for 18 Q. You said there were teams looking 18 substitutes? 19 for replacement prior to 7 3 . 20 A. W ell, there w as not one person is 21 what I was trying to say. 19 A. No. 20 Q. Do you know how long -- I'm sorry. 21 W hat was the com pany you said that 22 Q. Okay. Well, team s conveys m ore than 23 one person. 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. Can you - and teams conveys more 22 Foseco got the wollastonite from ? 23 A. I believe it w as Interpace. 24 Q. Interpace? 25 A. I-n -t-e -r-p -a ------ p-a-c-e. But 10 (Pages 34 to 37) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 38 Page 40 1 it's 40 years ago now. 2 Q. Interpace? 3 A. So I'm trying to rem em ber to answ er 4 your question. 5 Q. That's okay. That's okay. 6 Do you know how long Interpace had 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. Then it m oved to am osite asbestos 3 for com m ercial sale? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Right. A t that tim e, Foseco 6 u n d ersto o d cro cid o lite w a s im p licated in 7 wollastonite for sale? 7 m esotheliom a. W hat efforts did Foseco take to 8 A. No. 8 m a ke su re a m o site w o u ld not be im plicated in 9 Q. Sir, do you agree th at from d ay one 9 m esotheliom a? 10 o f Foseco's sale o f asbestos hot tops, Foseco 11 had an ap p reciatio n th a t a sb e sto s could ca u se 12 asbestosis? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay. And do you agree that from 10 A. There w as a lot of publicity about 11 p o tential p ro blem s w ith asb e sto s. A nd so w e, 12 w e approached - 1 say "we," the com pany - 13 approached the suppliers o f asbestos to say, 14 look, w hat, w hat is th e situation. W e're 15 day one, w hen Foseco started to selling 15 h ea ring re p o rts o f m a yb e b lu e is associated 16 asbestos containing hot tops, Foseco understood 16 w ith ca ncer. Please tell us w h a t it is. 17 that asbestos could cause fatal diseases? 17 It was part of our research on 18 A. I'm not sure how to answ er your 18 trying to find out w hat these raw m aterials 19 question. 19 w ere, w hat the potential problem s w ere, and how 20 Q. Did Foseco understand that 21 asbestosis could be a fatal disease? 22 A. I didn't -- I'm not sure how to 20 d o w e h a n d le it. 21 And so we got letters back from the 22 com panies saying that there has been som e 23 answer that question. I honestly don't know. 23 reports linking blue to cancer, but the -- but 24 Q. Okay. Do you agree that from day 24 not the brown, not the, not the w hite w as the 25 one Foseco had an understanding that asbestosis 25 im pression or understanding that Foseco had at 1 X was a preventable disease? Page 39 1 the time. Page 41 2 A. Yes, if -- w hen it w as discussed, it 2 And so when they, they found that 3 w as discussed that there is a potential 3 out, w e said w e should look at a replacement. 4 asbestosis hazard if it w asn't bound correctly 4 And that's w hen in '6- -- '64 they started 5 in the pro duct o r w a sn 't bound. A n d I d o n 't 5 getting am osite and replacing that -- replacing 6 know how, I don't know how to answ er your 6 the blue with, with the brown. 7 question technically. 7 Q. Did Foseco ask the am osite raw 8 Q. Foseco also had an understanding as 8 asbestos sellers w hether or not their fiber had 9 o f day one, when they first started selling 9 been im plicated in any disease? 10 asbestos-containing hot tops, th at asbestos 10 A. Yes. 11 could cause the d isease m esotheliom a, co rrect? 11 Q. Okay. So - and w hat did they tell 12 A. In, in the early developm ent, there 12 you? 13 w as an understanding th at e xp o su re to the 13 A. That it w as not a clear answer. 14 crocidolite, blue asbestos, was getting 14 There w as - they w ere not -- they w ere not 15 publicity that it had been or could be 15 saying there w as any, any direct link at all. 16 associated with, with m esotheliom a or, or 16 They were, they w ere saying there w as no 17 cancer at th e tim e - 17 evidence to show that, w hich -- 18 Q. Okay. 18 Q. W as it surprising to Foseco that the 19 A. - if not handled correctly. 19 supplier o f the am osite said our stuff is okay? 20 Q. Foseco understood that crocidolite 20 A. I'm not saying it's okay. I thought 21 could cause m esotheliom a as o f '65, correct? 21 you were asking me about lung cancer. 22 A. Correct. 22 Q. Any type of lung disease. Okay? 23 Q. Crocidolite was actually a fiber 23 A. W ell, let me answ er it this way. 24 that Foseco had been using in the precom m ercial 24 The, the im pression Foseco had at the time, 25 hot tops it w as making, right? 25 that if not handled correctly, there was a HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITlGATION.COM 11 (Pages 38 to 41) ANTHONY MONEY Page 42 Page 44 1 potential for lung cancer using the blue. But 1 disintegrates into ju st dust? 2 there w as a potential problem using the brown, 2 A . You m ean in end use? 3 but it w as asbestosis rather than cancer. 3 Q. In end use. 4 That's the impression that they had at the 4 A. In end use, it, it's used and then 5 time. 5 it, it d ro ps aw ay. But d u st is not a w ord I'd 6 Q. All right. So let's go forw ard from 6 use. There's, there's som e sintered products. 7 there. So Foseco moves to brown asbestos from 7 There's som e -- I don't know how to best to 8 blue, right? 8 d escrib e it. But d u st w ould not be, not be one 9 A. Yes. 9 of them. 10 Q. The brown was also cheaper, right? 10 Q. Is it fair to say that the hot tops 11 A. I don't know. 11 fa irly ea sily disinte g ra te? 12 Q. Okay. Well, w e'll go through som e 12 A. In, in use - sorry. A fter use, 13 docum ents. I th in k that'll help flesh th a t 13 they w ould -- som e w ould fall aw ay and som e 14 out. But let's g o w here, w h ere you w ent, w hich 14 w ould be knocked off, blown off. But the, the i 15 is Foseco m oves to brow n a sbesto s, and Foseco 15 dust is one thing I'm a bit w orried about 16 u nderstands a t th at point it's u n clea r w h eth e r 16 b ecau se -- in answ ering your question is ; 17 o r not am osite is going to be im plicated in 17 because w e did not just supply hot tops, 18 lung disease. 18 boards, when w e w ere doing this. 19 Is that fair? 19 W e also supplied a pow der called 20 A. It -- w hat w e did is when w e started 20 ferric w hich w ent on top of the steel in the 21 m aking the products, we, w e w ere very proactive 21 ingot m old. So when you're talking about dust, 22 in looking to see w hat potential problem s w ere 22 if there w as -- w hatever was left at the end, 23 and how do w e handle the brown. I m entioned 23 it w as a com bination of these sintered parts of 24 earlier we went to the suppliers to ask for 24 the board, plus any rem ains of the, the 25 their inform ation that they had. 25 exotherm ic powder w e put on top. j Page 43 1 W e also got the Industrial 1 Q. Right. O f course, Foseco never 2 Com m ission o f O hio to co m e in to lo o k at our 2 conducted any analysis of dust released from 3 w ay o f m anufacturing. And they cam e in in '63, 3 ju st the boards that had been through the 4 '65, '67, and they said there is a potential 4 pro cess, co rrect? 5 fo r using - potential dangers in using 5 A. That's correct. 6 asbestos, but the w ay you're handling it is no 6 Q. The only way to truly know w hether 7 risk. 8 Q. I've heard you say that - or I've 7 or not dust is released is to conduct 8 m easurem ents. You agree with that, right? 9 seen you say that before. Do you have those 9 A. Yes. 10 reports? 10 Q. Okay. That was not done? 11 A. Yes. 11 A. It w as not done by us. W hether it 12 Q. Okay. And w hat kind of -- w hat kind 12 w as done by the steel mill, I don't know. 13 o f a ir m onitoring did the Industrial Com m ission 13 Q. It was not done by Foseco? 14 o f Ohio conduct? 14 A. Correct. 15 A. I don't know the details of what 16 they did. 15 Q. Foseco's facilities in the 1960s in 16 the U.S., w here did it have facilities w here it 17 Q. Did you know whether or not they 17 made hot tops? 18 found any exposure o f the fo lk s w ho w ere 18 A. It made, it m ade hot tops in 19 working with asbestos? 19 Cleveland. W e started in Chicago. I think it 20 A. I know th at in the -- in th e tw o - 21 three reports that I said they w ere saying that 20 w a s e a rly '70s. A nd w e m ade them in the 21 Mt. Braddock plant. 22 the way we w ere handling it was, w as safe. 23 Q. Now, do you under -- do you have an 24 understanding th at in the hot top p ro cess that 25 the product Foseco actually m anufactured 22 Q. W here is Mt. Braddock? 23 A. It's in Pennsylvania. 24 Q. Do you expect that Foseco at all 25 tim es would have been aware of and made Page 45 12 (Pages 42 to 45) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGAT10N.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 46 Page 48 1 attem pts to diligently follow any national or 1 M anville to Foseco in -- on M ay 27th, 1963, 2 state regulations that applied to its business? 2 correct? 3 A. Yes. 3 A. I w as -- do you w ant m e to read it 4 Q. W h eth er th at be in O hio, in 4 first or not? 5 Illinois, or Pennsylvania? 5 Q. Sure. O f course. You can look at 6 A. Yes. 6 it. 7 Q. Does Foseco understand that Ohio had 7 MR. INABINET: This is Exhibit 3? 8 a threshold lim it value in place for asbestos 8 MR. PANATIER: Yes. 9 as of 1946? 9 (W itness reviewed docum ent.) 10 A. No. 10 THE WITNESS: Okay. 11 Q. Foseco doesn't know that? 11 BY MR. PANATIER: 12 A. I don't. I don't. 12 Q. A ll right. This is a com m unication 13 Q. Does Foseco understand that Illinois 13 fro m Jo h n s M an ville to Foseco in Cleveland on 14 recognized asbestosis as a com pensable disease 14 May 27th, 1963, correct? 15 in the 1930s? 15 A. Correct. 16 A. I d o n 't know th at, no. I ca n't 16 Q. And for each o f these documents, 17 answer. 17 you're going to see I've highlighted portions 18 Q. Does Foseco know th at Pennsylvania 18 o f th e m so w e d o n 't have to g o through every 19 recognized asbestosis as a com pensable disease 19 single thing. 20 in the 1930s? 20 But the highlighted portion says -- 21 A. No. 21 JM says to Foseco, "W e are aw are of your 22 Q. W hen did the Chicago plant open? 22 efforts to substitute Canadian chrysotile fiber 23 A. I'm trying to guess. I think it w as 23 fo r th is A frican blue and, in fact, w e have 24 -- you -- your question w as in th e '60s, and I 24 been in co n ta ct w ith o u r m ines and your 25 think it opened around '71, but I'm , I'm not 25 Mr. E.J. Jago on the subject," correct? Page 47 Page 49 1 sure. 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Great. W hat I w ant to do is I have 2 Q. Now, chrysotile -- w e've been 3 docum ents ~ I think you've seen every single 3 talking about am osite, but chrysotile was also 4 one of these before. These are Foseco 4 a fib er used ultim ately in the hot tops sold by 5 docum ents -- and kind o f go through them in a 5 Foseco, correct? 6 chronological fashion. So w e can gain an 6 A. Not in, not in totality. W e used 7 appreciation of how things evolved at the 7 som e chrysotile along with the brown. 8 company. 8 Q. Right. It w as ultim ately used not 9 Are you okay to do that? 9 by itself but with the am osite? 10 A. Yes. 10 A. The, the - when asked that 11 Q. All right. If you see a docum ent 11 question, Ja g o said th a t th e chrysotile would 12 that you have not seen before, w ill you let me 12 not w ork on its own. 13 know? 13 Q. S o the answ er to the question is it 14 A. Yes. 14 w a s alw ays used, to th e extent it w as used, in 15 Q. Okay. And I'll m ark each one of 15 conjunction with am osite? 16 these as w e go through. T h e first one will be 16 A. Correct. 17 Exhibit 3. 17 Q. And alw ays in a sm aller percentage? 18 (Money Deposition Exhibit No. 3 18 A. Yes. 19 was marked for identification.) 19 Q. Okay. Did -- w hat efforts did 20 MR. INABINET: Do you have two 20 Foseco conduct -- or I'm sorry. 21 copies, Chris? 21 W hat efforts did Foseco undertake to 22 MR. PANATIER: No, I just have the 22 investigate w hether or not chrysotile was 23 one. I'll hand it to you guys first. 23 im plicated in th e disease m esotheliom a? 24 BY MR. PANATIER: 24 A. I believe we w rote letters to all 25 Q. Sir, this is a letter from Johns 25 the asbestos suppliers. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM 13 (Pages 46 to 49) ANTHONY MONEY Page 50 Page 52 1 Q. Okay. So you asked the sellers of 1 crocidolite; is that fair? 2 the asbestos for inform ation on the hazards? 2 A. RM265 is crocidolite. RM265A w as 3 A. Correct. And also, Dago did -- he 3 am osite. 4 w ent to the library in Cleveland, fo r exam ple, 4 Q. G o t it. T h is is fro m Mr. Bilton, 5 like he did w ith every new raw m aterial. He'd 5 w h o you m entioned, to F. Eastw ood. W h o is 6 do investigation on w hat the m aterial was, 6 Eastwood? 7 where the sources are, any, any dangers. He 7 A. Fred Eastwood when, when I knew 8 did that on every raw m aterial. 8 Foseco, I joined Foseco, he was president or 9 Q. Okay. How do you know that? 9 past president. I'm guessing in '64 he was 10 A. He told me. 10 president at that time. 11 Q. Okay. So Mr. Jago w ent and, I 11 Q. All right. So Mr. Bilton tells 12 assum e, looked up ch ryso tile a sb e sto s in th e 12 Mr. Eastw ood, the president, he says, "Paul 13 m edical library? 13 Norm an told m e last w eek that England have done 14 A. Yes. 14 laboratory w ork w ith w hite asbestos and, like 15 Q. Okay-. So w e can assu m e th a t he 15 ourselves, have found th a t it seem s to perform 16 would have found anything th at had been 16 as w ell as th e blue crocidolite asbestos w e are 17 published, right? 17 now buying." 18 A. If it w as in the library, yes. 18 So at least as of this report, they 19 Q. Right. D oes Foseco understand th at 19 found chrysotile to work just as w ell as 20 in 1952 there w e re reports o f m esotheliom a ou t 20 crocidolite, true? 21 of Canadian chrysotile m iners? 21 A. That's w hat this m em o says, but that 22 A. No. 22 isn't w hat happened. 23 Q. You can set th at aside, sir. 23 Q. Sir, when I ask you w hat a memo 24 A. W here do you want m e to -- 24 says, that's w hat I'm asking you. Okay? 25 MR. INABINET: Over here. W e'll 25 A. Fine. 1 keep them out of the way. 2 MR. PANA U E R : This will be Exhibit 3 4. 4 (Money Deposition Exhibit No. 4 5 was m arked for identification.) 6 (W itness reviewed document.) 7 THE WITNESS: Okay. 8 BY MR. PANATIER: 9 Q. All right. T h is is a com m unication 10 w ithin Foseco, right? 11 A. It, it w as Foseco, yes, Foseco 12 group, yes. 13 Q. Right. This is an interoffice 14 correspondence, it says. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Right. Dated January 23, 1964, 17 correct? 18 A. Let me see. Yes. 19 Q. T h e subject is RM265. T h a t is 20 chrysotile, correct? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Is it crocidolite? 23 A. It's crocidolite. 24 Q. Okay. I'm sorry. 25 So any tim e w e see RM265, that's Page 51 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 53 Q. Okay? A. Yes. Q. All right. "Like ourselves, they have never used this m aterial in products w hich have gone into the fields." My follow -up is, ultim ately w hat Foseco learned w as you could not use chrysotile alone as a replacem ent for the crocidolite, correct? A. Correct. Q. Okay. "Paul believes that the only reason blue asbestos is used is because International happened to light upon it in the initial stages." W hat is International? A. International is the, the Foseco com pany in England called Foseco International. Q. Okay. Did you ever w ork for them ? A. Yes. Q. All right. W hen did you w ork for Foseco International? A. I jo in ed Foseco International in Decem ber 1970, and I was with them until I joined Foseco, Inc., in O ctober 1972. Q. Okay. Foseco International is based 14 (Pages 50 to 53) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 54 Page 56 1 in the U.K. Foseco, well, over here is based 1 then we'll talk about Exhibit 5 because I think 2 over here, right? 2 th a t's pro ba b ly th e best w a y to handle it. 3 A. Correct. 3 (M oney Deposition Exhibit No. 6 4 Q. And w here w as it based when you 4 w as m arked for identification.) 5 joined it? 5 MR. INABINET: Do you have the Cape 6 A. W hich? FIL or Foseco, Inc.? 6 letter on the back of this? 7 Q. Oh, I'm sorry. In 7 2 . 7 MR. PANATIER: I don't have all the 8 A. In 7 2 it w as in Cleveland. 8 letters -- yeah, yeah, that's w hat I've 9 Q. Sorry. Paul points out that 9 got. You have that NAAC letter. 10 "although the blue asbestos has a highly -- 10 MR. INABINET: Okay. Okay. 11 slightly higher tensile strength than the 11 BY M R. PA N A TIER : 12 w hite, this tensile strength is probably never 12 Q. So, sir, there you've got a letter. 13 put to use in th e function it perform s in 13 W h a t is th e d a te o f th a t letter? 14 Profax." 14 A. April 7th, 1964. 15 W hat is the function o f the asbestos 15 Q. T h at is from who? 16 in the hot tops? 16 A. It's from , it looks like, Cryor. 17 A. It's basically tw ofold. It, it acts 17 Q. And he's at NAAC? 18 as an insulating property in the finished 18 A. Correct. 19 product. B u t a ls o in th e fo rm in g , you p u lp -- 19 Q. T h at's North Am erican Asbestos 20 you pulp a recipe and then you put it through a 20 Corporation, true? 21 m achine w here it's m ade into a w et product. 21 A. Correct. 22 And then it's put through an oven and dried. 22 Q. To Foseco? 23 And the problem s with, with that 23 A. Correct. 24 procedure is th a t som etim es w hen it com es out 24 Q. Is it a d d re ssed to anyone in 25 of the, the, the, the m achine, it goes on a 25 particular at Foseco? 1 -L belt going through an oven. If the, if the Page 55 1 A. Yes, Frank Bilton. Page 57 2 strength is not there, it disform s. It 2 Q. All right. So this is the 3 collapses. And so what's im portant is getting 3 purchasing agent w e've been talking about? 4 the fib er in there to keep it intact so it 4 A. Yes, it is. 5 stays the shape that w ill fit the steel mill 5 Q. And he says that he is attaching the 6 ingot mold when it com es out o f the oven at the 6 letter from Cape A sbestos to NAAC, correct? 7 other end. 7 A. Correct. 8 MR. PANATIER: All right. This will 8 Q. And that is Exhibit 5, which you 9 be Exhibit 5. 9 also have in fro nt o f you? 10 (M oney Deposition Exhibit No. 5 10 A. Yes. 11 was m arked for identification.) 11 Q. All right. So Foseco ultimately 12 BY MR. PANATIER: 12 received that letter from Cape, correct? 13 Q. Sir, this is a letter between North 13 A. Yes, it did. 14 Am erican Asbestos Corporation and Cape A sbestos 14 Q. All right. Let's go to Exhibit 5 15 Com pany, Lim ited, correct? 15 then. Okay. This letter, which Foseco 16 A. Correct. 16 ultim ately saw, is between North American 17 Q. Now, North Am erican Asbestos 17 Asbestos Corporation and Cape dated April 3rd, 18 Corporation w as one o f the suppliers to Foseco, 18 1964, correct? 19 true? 19 A. Correct. 20 A. Right. 20 Q. All right. Now, this is before -- 21 Q. And before w e get into the contents 21 potentially a few m onths, potentially a year 22 o f that letter, you are aware, o f course, that 22 before Foseco started selling asbestos hot tops 23 that letter ultim ately got to Foseco, correct? 23 com m ercially, true? 24 A. Correct. 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. And we'll make that Exhibit 6. And 25 Q. Do you rem em ber w hat month in '65 HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM 15 (Pages 54 to 57) ANTHONY MONEY Page 58 Page 60 1 they w ent available com m ercially? 1 cancer. T h e re is no evidence to indicate that 2 A. I don't know. 2 there is a greater risk from any particular 3 Q. Okay. Okay. 3 form o f asbestos." 4 It says, "Dear Bob." And it says -- 4 First o f all, I got through that. 5 the subject is Foseco, Inc., health problem s 5 But did I read it correctly? 6 concerns about asbestos. Correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 A. I'm trying to read it. Concerning 7 Q. Okay. W h at Cape is saying is that 8 -- I can't read it. Som ebody else? 8 it appears that the medical world has accepted 9 Q. Okay. 9 that lung cancer can be caused by asbestos and 10 A. W hat does it say? 10 there's - there appears to be no difference 11 Q. Here. Go ahead and hand it to me. 11 am ong th e fib e r types, co rrect? i 12 I'll, I'll translate it for you. 12 A. That's, that's w hat he says, 13 It says, "Foseco, Inc., Health 13 correct. 14 Problem s Concerning" som ething -- oh, blue 14 Q. Okay. This would have been w hat 15 asbestos. 15 Foseco learned w hen it received this letter 16 A. Yeah, that's w h at I thought it said. 16 just a little bit later, correct? 17 B u t I d id n 't w a n t to -- 17 A. Yes correct. i 18 Q. All right. So w e can agree that's 18 Q. All right. "2, during recent years, 19 w h a t it says? 19 Dr. 1 C . W a gner," o r "W agner," "claim s to have 20 A. Yes. 20 found approxim ately 100 cases of a distinctly 21 Q. Okay. Let's go ahead and go to the 21 different kind of lung cancer called 22 second paragraph. It says -- w ell, actually, 22 m esotheliom a am ong people in the North W est 23 first paragraph for context. 23 Cape in South Africa, m ost o f w hom have som e 24 "I am sorry to hear that you are 24 history of exposure to blue asbestos." 25 being troubled by questions relating to health 25 Did I read that right? Page 59 Page 61 ; 1 problem s and blue asbestos. W e have already 1 A. Yes. 1 2 said -- w e have already had an inquiry from 2 Q. Now, my question is, w hen Foseco got j 3 Foseco here and I gather from our salespeople 3 this, do you know if Mr. Jago went up and 4 that they, Foseco, will probably use am osite 4 looked up Dr. W agner's paper? 5 anyw ay in view o f the low er price o f this 5 A. I don't know. 6 fiber." 6 Q. Do you know if anybody did? 7 So that's where I w ant to stop for 8 the first time. Am osite, at least according to 7 A. I don't know. 8 Q. Certainly to the extent that Cape 9 Cape Asbestos, who is selling the blue 9 has already said there doesn't appear to be a 10 asbestos, w as ch e a p er at th a t tim e, correct? 10 difference betw een the fibers, and there's a 11 A. It would appear so from this, yes. 11 doctor w h o reported 100 cases o f this new 12 Q. Okay. And w hat he's saying is I 13 th ink they're going to g o w ith brow n anyw ay 12 ca ncer called m esotheliom a, certainly this 13 w ould be som ething th at Foseco w ould w a n t to 14 because it's cheaper. 14 investigate, correct? 15 A. That's w hat he says. 16 Q. Right. It says, "On the health side 17 the health situation is by no m eans 15 A. Yeah, and m aybe they did. I have 16 not asked that specific question to Ted. 17 Q. All right. You would have expected 18 straightforw ard and is confused, co nfused by" 19 - and I can 't read th a t word. 20 A. I know. 18 them , if they w ere responsible, to go ahead and 19 g o pull th at article, correct? 20 A. I d on't know . I d on't know. M aybe 21 Q. Something "of sem i-scientific and 22 speculative theory. The facts may be 21 they had it. M aybe th ey didn't. I have no 22 idea. 23 sum m arized as follow s. 1, the m edical world 24 now accepts -- now appears to accept that 25 exposure to asbestos increases the risk o f lung 23 Q. W e know you don't know, but you 24 would expect the responsible thing would be to 25 go and pull that inform ation, correct? 16 (Pages 58 to 61) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGAT10N.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 62 Page 64 1 A. I don't know. 2 Q. You don't know w hat the responsible 3 thing to do is? 4 A. W ell, it depends on w here they w ere. 1 asbestos," correct? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. C h rysotile asbesto s w a s not in use 4 yet at Foseco as o f this date, correct? 5 If they're looking at this and they were 5 A. Correct. 6 looking a t trying to find o u t is th e re any 6 Q. But they put it into use, correct? 7 potential greater risk using blue than the 7 A. T hey did pu t it in at a later date, 8 other, the conclusion from , from these reports 8 yes. 9 is th at although they can be adequately 9 Q. Foseco w as aw are o f - let's look at 10 controlled, there is a, th ere is a potential 10 the Exhibit 6. W hat's the date of that? 11 ex p o su re o r hazard using blue asb e sto s. A nd 11 A. It's April 7th, 1964. 12 th at's w hen they prom ptly started w orking on 13 replacing it w ith the brow n. 12 Q. Okay. On April 7th, 1964, when 13 F oseco received a copy o f th is letter from Cape 14 Q. I'm ju st going to object 14 Asbestos, Foseco w ould have been aw are not only 15 nonresponsive. 15 th at Dr. W a g ne r had found m esotheliom a in 16 My question is do you agree it w ould 16 w orkers in Africa w orking w ith blue asbestos 17 have been the responsible thing to go and find 17 and in w orkers in G reat Britain who were 18 this report? 19 A. W ell, I don't know how to answ er 18 getting m esotheliom a and exposed to asbestos, 19 but also they would have been aware of 20 that. It depends on w hat know ledge they had at 21 the time. 20 m esotheliom a associated with chrysotile 21 asbestos in th e United States, true? 22 Q. Okay. So you have no evidence, 22 A. That's w hat this says, yes. 23 though, th at anyone actually did go pull 24 W agner's report. 25 A. I, I, I don't know w hether w e do or 23 Q. Right. It w as after that date that 24 Foseco determ ined they would put chrysotile 25 asbestos into its hot tops, true? Page 63 Page 65 1 not. If th e re is, I ca n 't re m em b er seeing it. 1 A. No. 2 Q. Do you know whether the W agner paper 2 Q. They determ ined - 3 actual addressed other form s o f asbestos and 3 A. At that tim e there was - they 4 w hether or not they can cause m esotheliom a? 4 decided to start w orking on amosite. 5 A. I d o n 't kno w a n ythin g ab o u t it. 5 Q. W hen did chrysotile first go into 6 Q. Okay. Section 3, it says, "Dr. 6 the hot tops? 7 W agner has been w orking in Britain fo r the last 7 A. I can't rem em ber the, the exact -- 8 12 months, and he claim s to have uncovered from 8 it was -- I don't know the date. It was -- 9 the records, going back over a considerable 9 Q. W as it after April 7th, 1964? 10 number o f years, a com parable num ber of cases 10 A. Oh, yes. 11 o f m esothelio m a here." 11 Q. That w as the question. It was after 12 And he's talking about Great 12 this date - 13 Britain, co rrect? 13 A. Yes. 14 A. Correct. 14 Q. - that Foseco put chrysotile 15 Q. So they're talking about Dr. 15 asbestos into its hot tops, true? 16 W a g ne r's w o rk finding m esoth elio m a both in 16 A. Correct. 17 Africa and in the U.K., true? 17 Q. Okay. W e have to change the tape. 18 A. W ill you repeat the question again? 18 So let's just take a break. Five minutes. 19 Q. Sure. They're talking about 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end 20 W agner's w ork w here he has find m esotheliom as 20 o f Tape No. 1 in the deposition o f Anthony 21 both in South Africa and in the .K., correct? 21 M oney. The tim e is approxim ately 10:58 22 A. Correct. 22 p.m. [sic] W e are going o ff the video 23 Q. "4, cases of m esotheliom a have also 23 record. 24 been claim ed in the United States and Canada 24 (Discussion off the record.) 25 associated with exposure to chrysotile 25 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going back on the HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM 17 (Pages 62 to 65) ANTHONY MONEY Page 66 Page 68 1 video record at 11:06 a.m. at the beginning 1 BY MR. PANATIER: 2 o f T a p e No. 2 in the deposition o f Anthony 2 Q. And then it says, "It is accepted 3 Money. 3 that precautions m ust be taken, and I suggest 4 BY MR. PANATTER: 4 that so far as Foseco are concerned, all that 5 Q. Sir, the last paragraph says - or 5 is necessary -- all th at is necessary to advise 6 the last subsection says, "So far as I'm aware, 6 them is th a t precautions should be taken to 7 no cases o f m esotheliom a have been definitely 7 prevent inhalation of asbestos dust by their 8 associated with am osite." Correct? 8 operatives." 9 A. That's correct. 9 Did I read that right? 10 Q. W hat follow -up did Foseco do to look 10 A. Yes. 11 into th at? 11 Q. Okay. So this letter, which Foseco 12 A. I think they took that as, as 12 got four days later in 1964, April o f 1964, to 13 another indication th at there w as potential 13 sum m arize, it reaffirm s that there is an 14 problem s handling asbestos if not handled 14 asbestosis hazard w ith aii fibers, correct? 15 correctly. But the, the consensus they got 15 A. Correct. 16 from th is Is th a t th e re is a p o tentially higher 16 Q. It says that there have been reports 17 risk using blue than the other. And that's one 17 o f m esotheliom a in th e United States, in the 18 o f th e reasons th at because o f com m ents like 18 U.K., and in South Africa with relation to blue 19 this that they decided we, w e should switch 19 and w hite chrysotile asbestos, correct? 20 over to am osite from the blue. 20 A. It - I know it says that for blue. 21 Q. So sort o f in ju st regular people 21 I'm not sure w hether all three it says 22 term s, there w as an understanding that there 22 chrysotile asb esto s b ut it, it does. 23 w as a risk from all o f the fibers but th at blue 23 Q. It specifies - to be clear, it 24 probably had the highest risk. Is that fair? 24 specifies the United States ~ or actually, 25 A. It's, it's -- that, th at w as the 25 "Cases have been claim ed in the United States Page 67 Page 69 1 consensus from these letters, that's correct. 1 and Canada associated with exposure to 2 Q. Now, if you go to the next 2 chrysotile asbestos," right? 3 paragraph, it says, "These then are the facts. 3 A. Correct. Yes. 4 And I should add that I have heard absolutely 4 Q. All three fiber types are implicated 5 nothing o f skin ca n cer in th is co nnection. T h e 5 in som e so rt o f asbestos-related disease; is 6 problem is an extension o f th e old asbestosis 6 that correct? 7 hazard. And although we are concerned with the 8 extension into these more obtruse diseases and 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. Right. Do you know w hether or not 9 anxious to establish the facts, w here is -- 9 Foseco agreed with this, this man from Cape 10 there is clearly no reason for alarm w hen one 10 Asbestos, that there w as no reason fo r alarm 11 co nsiders th e very sm all incidence o f th is 11 for these new cancers because there w ere so few 12 affliction in relation to the eno rm ous num ber 12 people w ho w ere affected by them ? 13 o f peo ple w ho handle asbestos o f all kinds." 13 A. W ell, there would be concern. And 14 So w e could stop there. W hat, what 14 as always, you, you make decisions on knowledge 15 this guy at least is saying is w e shouldn't 15 available a t th e tim e. A nd I th in k th a t Foseco 16 really be co ncerned because th ese new cancers 16 did a diligent effort in trying to find out 17 w e're talking about, they don't affect that 17 w h at w as asbestos, w h at are th e different 18 m any people, right? 18 types, and w hat w ere the potential hazards. 19 MR. KADISH: I object to the 19 And this w as ju st another piece in there. 20 sum m arization. I think it speaks for 20 Q. Right. 21 itself. 21 A. But I'm telling you the thing that 22 MR. PANATIER: He can agree or 22 came from this is there was potential more 23 disagree w ith it. 23 danger from using the blue. So they started 24 THE W ITNESS: That's w hat it says, 24 working very quickly on using the brown. 25 yeah. 25 Q. W hat they knew about brown and then 18 (Pages 66 to 69) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 70 Page 72 1 subsequently white, when they added w hite to 1 please, to page -- actually, to the next page, 2 it, w as th e y knew brown w as an asbestosis 2 the very next page. It ju st says this is a 3 hazard already and they knew that white w as 3 m onthly report from April of 1965 from the 4 im plicated in m esotheliom a already, correct? 4 technical division, right? 5 A. That's w hat it shows on, on this 5 A. It does. 6 report. 6 Q. Okay. And then there's -- 7 Q. A nd w hen Foseco g ot it, they read 7 basically, when they did these reports, they 8 the report, right? 8 w ent through various different issues that they 9 A. Yes. 9 w e re having o f a technical nature; is that 10 Q. They didn't ignore this, did they? 10 fair? 11 A. No, no. 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. Okay. You can set th a t aside, sir. 12 Q. All right. If you'll turn, please, 13 A. Both of them ? 13 to p ag e 15, th ere's a section there called 14 Q. Yes, sir. 14 "D evelopm ent Foseco (FS) Limited silica and 15 N e xt is Exhibit 7. 15 asbestos-free Profax." 16 (M oney Deposition Exhibit No. 7 16 Do you see that? 17 w as m arked for identification.) 17 A. Yes. 18 MR. INABINET: I'm assum ing you have 18 Q. The second paragraph there says, 19 provisions highlighted or -- 19 "Two sam ples o f m ineral wool have been 20 M R. PANATTER: I do. I'll te ll him 20 evaluated as possible replacements for 21 to turn to various pages. W e're not going 21 asbestos." And it has a - - 1 guess a 22 to be talking about that w hole docum ent. 22 designation m ark there. Is that LM319? 23 MR. INABINET: Okay. 23 A. It looks like it is. 24 MR. PANATTER: I think it starts on 24 Q. Okay. "Mixes have been m ade using 25 page 14 or 15. That's w here the 25 both sam p les and concentrations o f 1, 2, and 3 Page 71 Page 73 1 h ighlighted stu ff is. 1 percent. Green strengths increased with the 2 BY MR. PANATTER: 2 higher percentages, but there was little 3 Q. Take a second to look at that, sir. 3 difference in transverse strength. Only one 4 A. Do you w ant m e to -- 4 sam ple has been tried on Amitec, which gave 5 MR. INABINET: Do you w ant to point 5 superior results to that from current Profax. 6 him to -- 6 Four sam ples of chopped fiberglass have been 7 BY MR. PANATTER: 7 received and have been successfully evaluated. 8 Q. I w ant you to just get fam iliar with 8 However, these materials are very much more 9 w h at it is. 9 expensive than asbestos." 10 A. Yes. 10 So I have a few follow-up questions. 11 Q. Okay. And then I'll point up to the 11 First, th is is 1965, so this is the year that 12 right page. 12 Foseco started selling asbestos hot tops 13 A. That's fine. 13 com m ercially, correct? 14 Q. This is a, this is a docum ent. It 14 A. Correct. 15 says "Coordinated Research and Developm ent 15 Q. April 1965 is also the sam e month, 16 Progress Report, Confidential, Foseco 16 if I'm looking a t this right - no. This is 17 International, Limited, April 1965." 17 one year after the previous memos we looked at 18 So this is the U.K. Foseco, right? 18 from Cape Asbestos? 19 A. Correct. 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. All right. And you w ere not yet 20 Q. All right. W hy were they looking 21 working there as of '65, true? 21 fo r substitutes for asbestos? 22 A. Correct. 22 A. It's, it's part o f - part o f the 23 Q. You started in '70? 23 research and developm ent that always things are 24 A. Correct. 24 looked at to try to improve the quality, 25 Q. All right. Sir, if you w ill turn, 25 perform ance of all products. This, this one HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLmGATION.COM 19 (Pages 70 to 73) ANTHONY MONEY Page 74 Page 76 1 is, is being used because -- p ro ba bly ju st 1 up. 2 because o f that. 2 Q. It is true that the only draw back 3 Q. So it had nothing to do with 3 cited by the technical group here is that 4 potential health hazards? 4 fiberglass costs m ore than asbestos, correct? 5 A. It, it could have. But this, this 5 A. That's w hat it says here, but w e 6 is just the technical report associated with 6 tried both o f them and w e could not g et them to 7 that. This technical report w ould not address 7 work. 8 health and safety. It doesn't m ean to say 8 Q. I'm just going to object to 9 health and safety w asn't looked at. It m eans 9 nonresponsive. 10 that this report w as ju st from the technical 10 A. Okay. 11 asp ects o f the, o f th e m a n u factu re and use o f 11 Q. My question is the only thing cited 12 the product. 12 here as a draw back o f the fiberglass by the 13 Q. So the technical -- when w e consider 13 technical group is th a t it costs - it is very 14 a technical report like this, their only 14 much m ore expensive than asbestos, correct? 15 concern is does th e m aterial work. 15 A. That's w hat - 16 A. On, on this research report, they 16 MR. KADISH: Objection; form; asked 17 w ould be looking at technical aspects o f the, 17 and answered. 18 of the form ing o f the product and the 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 19 perform ance o f the product. 19 BY MR. PANA7IER: 20 Q. Okay. So when w e talk about 20 Q. I'm sorry, sir. Could you go ahead 21 technical aspects, that's form ing and 21 and state your answ er? 22 performance of the product? 22 A. Yes, that's w hat it says. 23 A. Correct. 23 Q. So you can set that exhibit aside. 24 Q. Okay. But these technical guys also 24 The next exhibit will be Exhibit 8. 25 bring up som ething that I w ould call price, how 25 Page 75 1 much the m aterial costs, right? 1 (Money Deposition Exhibit No. 8 2 A. W ell, well, price we always looked 2 was marked for identification.) 3 at. But it w asn't the driving force on product 3 BY MR. PANA7IER: 4 perform ance. It was what's the best products 4 Q. Sir, Exhibit 8 is a research and 5 to use in th e application necessary. 5 developm ent report. It is from C. W ashburn, 6 Q. Is it Foseco's testim ony that price 6 and this is dated on the third page August 7 w as not a consideration in w hat m aterials to 7 10th, 1965, correct? 8 use? 8 A. Correct. 9 A. If there was an adequate 9 Q. You have seen this on many 10 substitution w hich w as cheaper w ithout causing 10 occasions, right? 11 any extra risk o r co m plications on sourcing it, 11 A. Yes. 12 bagging it, getting it shipped, use in the 12 Q. All right. You are fam iliar with 13 plant, th ey w ould co n sid e r it, yes. 13 this, true? 14 Q. Sir, the second paragraph that's 14 A. Yes. 15 highlighted th ere says, "Fou r sam p les o f 15 Q. W as C. Washburn an em ployee of 16 chopped fiberglass have been received and have 16 Foseco? 17 been successfully evaluated." 17 A. He was an employee of Foseco 18 So that means the fiberglass was 18 International. 19 successful, correct? 19 Q. So he was one o f the guys in the 20 A. It w as in the, in the, in the 20 U.K., correct? 21 research and developm ent lab. But we tried - 21 A. Correct. 22 it m entions also m ineral wool and chopped 22 Q. Now, let me ask you this. Did the 23 fiber- -- w e tried them , and they just clumped 23 U.K. guys share this type o f inform ation with 24 together when we tried to make the w et shape 24 the U.S. guys? 25 before going into the oven. It would not hold 25 A. Yes. Page 77 20 (Pages 74 to 77) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 78 Page 80 1 Q. And, in fact, th ere 's typically a 1 the very first page o f the substance is there 2 distribution list. I don't know if th ere's one 2 a re health hazards associated w ith Profax 10, 3 on here, but this did go to the U.S.? 3 right? 4 A. It did. 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. Okay. So you're on the right page. 5 Q. Profax 10 is just one of the hot 6 This says, "Research and developm ent report to 6 tops m ade by Foseco, right? 7 num ber 8.2, highly confidential, August 10th, 7 A. It's one of the recipes. 8 1965, silicosis and asbestosis hazards 8 Q. Okay. As o f August 1965, did Foseco 9 associated with the m anufacture and use of 9 place a warning on its hot tops that says there 10 Profax." 10 are health hazards pertaining to the use of 11 Did I read that right? 11 th is m aterial? 12 A. Yes. 12 A. No. 13 Q. Now, it says highly confidential. 13 Q. Okay. Go ahead and turn to the page 14 W hy is it highly confidential? 14 m arked 3, "Introduction." It says, "Inquiries 15 A. All technical reports w ere highly 15 are being received from custom ers regarding the 16 confidential because o f the potential for any 16 possibility of illness am ong steelw orker -- 17 com petitors getting ahold o f our recipes, 17 steelw orks personnel arising from the long-term 18 technologies, raw m aterials, et cetera. 18 use o f Profax 10." 19 Q. W ell, this is a report about health 19 So we're talking about the end 20 hazards having to do with tw o ingredients, 20 users, not the folks m anufacturing Profax 10, 21 right? 21 correct? 22 A. All I'm telling you, all research 22 A. That's correct. 23 and developm ent reports had to be marked 23 Q. They m entioned silicosis. But at 24 strictly confidential. T h at w as the policy 24 the end of that paragraph, it says, "More 25 that the group had. 25 recently, further objections have been received Page 79 Page 81 1 Q. Could a com petitor ever buy one of 2 your hot tops and pretty easily find out that 1 regarding a possible asbestosis hazard and its 2 associated danger o f cancer o f the respirator/ 3 it had asbestos and silica in it? 3 tract." 4 A. They, they - w e w ould not sell them 4 Now, at this time, a little bit more 5 a board. But if they got a board, they could 5 than a year earlier, Foseco had already been 6 do w hatever analytical w ork they knew about. 6 m ade aw are o f th e potential cancer hazard in 7 Q. And, sir, you certainly know that 7 addition to asbestosis, correct? 8 they could have easily determ ined, to the 8 A. That's correct. 9 extent they got one of your boards, that it had 9 Q. The next highlight says, "The 10 silica and asbesto s in it. 10 inform ation gained has been used to illustrate 11 A. Oh, yes. 11 the possible risk o f pulm onary disorders 12 Q. They could have determ ined exactly 12 accom panying the m anufacture and use o f Profax 13 how m uch as w ell, right? 13 10 and a basis fo r considering w ays o f reducing .14 A. Probably. 14 o r elim inating this risk." 15 Q. Yeah. Linder "Synopsis," it 15 Now, pulmonary disorders means 16 addresses both silica and asbestos, but we're 16 breathing o r lungs generally, right? 17 going to focus on asbestos. 17 A. Okay. 18 It says, "The m echanism s causing 18 Q. Do you agree with that? 19 these diseases are discussed. The nature and 19 A. Yes. 20 exten t o f th e hazards associated w ith Profax 10 20 Q. And, again, this man brings up not 21 are considered and it is concluded that the 21 just the m anufacture, but also the use of 22 m anufacture and use o f this m aterial are not 22 Foseco's hot tops, true? 23 entirely w ithout risk. Means o f obviating 23 A. Correct. 24 these hazards are recomm ended." 24 Q. There's a long section on silicosis 25 So what he says at the very -- on 25 we're not going to address. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLmGATION.COM 21 (Pages 78 to 81) ANTHONY MONEY Page 82 Page 84 1 And then if you'll please turn to 1 and brown are the m ost dangerous form s of 2 page 7, sir, there's the heading "Asbestosis." 2 asbestos, correct? 3 A. Yes. 3 A. That's what he says. 4 Q. It says, "Description o f the 4 Q. He says chrysotile and other form s 5 disease. Exposure to asbestos dust produced a 5 o f asbestos are slightly less harm ful, correct? 6 type o f lung fibrosis w hich is diffuse, unlike 6 A. Correct. 7 the nodular fibrosis caused by silica. 7 Q. That m eans they're still harmful, 8 Affected lung tissue contains asbestos bodies 8 correct? 9 capable o f identification in m icroscopic 9 A. Correct. 10 sections o f lung tissue." 10 Q. All right. So all three o f the 11 So he's basically defining 11 types of asbestos that Foseco had, had used, 12 asbestosis as a type o f fibrosis in the lung, 12 w as using, w ould use in th e future have been 13 tru e? 13 identified as harm ful by this m an a t Foseco, 14 A. Correct. 14 correct? 15 Q. AH right. If you go to th e next 15 MR. INABINET: Objection to form . 16 highlight, it says, "Crocidolite, blue 16 TH E W ITNESS: If not handled 17 asbestos, and am osite are the tw o m ost suitable 17 correctly. 18 asbestos grades fo r high-tem perature insulation 18 BY MR. PANATIER: 19 and they are the m ost dangerous." 19 Q. Right. Now, I mean, theoretically, 20 Did I read that right? 20 you can be in a room full o f poison gas so long 21 A. Yes. 21 as you have a respirator and can breathe clean 22 Q. Okay. Now, this is the year that 22 air, right? 23 Foseco has decided to sell its asbestos- 23 MR. INABINET: Objection to form. 24 containing hot tops com m ercially, right? 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. 25 A. Yes. 25 Page 83 Page 85 1 Q. They are selling it with amosite 1 BY MR. PANATIER: 2 asbestos, correct? 2 Q. So maybe this guy thought blue 3 A. Correct. 3 asbestos was more dangerous than brown asbestos 4 Q. And this Foseco em ployee has 4 and that's w hy he recom m ended brown. Is that 5 identified am osite, along with crocidolite, as 5 what you're saying? 6 the most dangerous grades of asbestos, true? 6 MR. KADISH: Objection; speculation. 7 A. T h a t's w h at he says. But in his, in 7 THE W ITNESS: I, I, I can't - I 8 his conclusion or his summary, he says blue 8 don't know w hat his thoughts w ere writing 9 asbestos m ust be im mediately eliminated from 10 the form u lation o f Profax 10; am osite asbestos 9 the report. 10 BY MR. PANATIER: 11 is a perfectly satisfactory substitute. 11 Q. Okay. As o f this date, did Foseco 12 Q. Even though it's ju st as dangerous 12 place a w arning label on its hot top s th a t says 13 and crocidolite? 13 this hot top contains the m ost d an g ero u s form 14 A. W ell, he, he, he doesn't say it's 15 just as. He says they are the m ost dangerous, 14 or one of the two m ost dangerous form s of 15 asbestos? 16 which is a bit confusing to me reading this. 17 But he says that, but his recom m endation is 18 substitute blue for - - 1 mean substitute brown 19 for blue, which w e'd already done months 20 earlier. 21 Q. Okay. So to be very dear, the same 22 guy in th e sam e report says on the one hand we 23 can substitute brown asbestos for blue, right? 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. And on the other hand, he says blue 16 A. No, he did not. But he did notify 17 the steel m ills o f every raw m aterial in the 18 product. A nd w e're dealing w ith sophisticated 19 com panies, the steel mills. 20 Q. I'm going to object to 21 nonresponsive, but I w ill address that. 22 Sir, as of 1965, did Foseco tell the 23 steel mills w hat they knew about other their 24 own product, w hat Foseco knew, that it 25 contained either the m ost or the second m ost 22 (Pages 82 to 85) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 86 Page 88 1 dangerous type o f asbestos in its product? 1 A. No. 2 A. It told th e steel m ills th at it had 2 Q. Only in Profax 10? 3 asbestos in th e product. 3 A. No. 4 Q. Did it say th a t in o u r opinion, in 4 Q. They're not using it? 5 Foseco's opinion, our product contains one of 5 A. No. 6 the two m ost dangerous types of asbestos? 6 Q. Okay. He -- is he ju st verifying 7 A. I found no docum entation that says 7 th a t am o site is w h a t th ey should be using in 8 anything like that, no. 8 his opinion? 9 Q. The next section says, "Mechanism of 9 A. He's, he's - this is a report, not 10 Asbestosis." "It w as form erly thought that the 10 ju st for Foseco, Inc. This is a report 11 dam aging effect o f asbestos on the lungs was 11 g en erated fo r th e Foseco co m panies. A nd w h at 12 purely m echanical, the sharp ends of the fibers 12 he's saying is that there's a potentially 13 puncturing adjacent tissues. However, this 13 higher risk using blue. And he's not 14 view is in disagreem ent w ith the fact that 14 recom m ending. He's saying w e should change 15 other fibers such as glass w ool do not appear 15 over from blue to brown, which w e'd already 16 to dam age lung tissue." 16 d o n e in April. T h is ca m e o u t in A ugust. And 17 And the reason I highlighted that, I 17 w e'd alread y sw itched from blue to brow n in, in 18 w anted to ask you about is -- 18 April. 19 A. I'm sorry. I've been trying to find 19 Q. So in August he's saying w e should 20 that on the page. 20 switch from blue to brown. But they had 21 Q. Oh, you know w hat? Yeah, it's right 21 already done it? 22 there. It's g o t a box around it, a highlighted 22 A. W e'd a lread y done it. 23 box around it. It's right u nder "M echanism of 23 Q. Okay. International had already 24 Asbestosis." 24 done it? 25 A. Okay. It's a box around it rather 25 A. No. Page 87 Page 89 1 than - - 1 understand. I'm sorry. Yep. 1 Q. The U.S. had already done it? 2 Q. Okay. W hat he's saying is that it 2 A. W e'u already done it. 3 m ay not just be how the fiber is shaped that 3 Q. Had everybody already done it? 4 causes disease because other m aterials with a 4 A. I don't know , but I d on't believe 5 sim ilar shape aren't im plicated in dam aging 5 so. 6 lung tissue; is that fair? 6 Q. All right. So there were som e 7 A. That's w hat he says, yes. 7 Foseco com panies that had not switched from 8 Q. All right. At the, at the bottom it 8 blue to brown? 9 says, "Cancer associated with blue asbestos." 9 A. That's my understanding. 10 He says, "It has been known fo r a long tim e 10 Q. A ll right. On th e page m arked 8, 11 th at th ere is a higher incidence o f ca ncer in 11 there's a section called "Perm issible D ust 12 the lungs and adjacent tissues am ong asbestos 12 Concentrations," and there should be a 13 w orkers than am ong the rest o f the population 13 squared-in paragraph. 14 by a factor o f approxim ately 10 to 1." 14 A. Yep. 15 S o w h a t he's saying th e re is 15 Q. It says, "The Ministry of Labor" - 16 asbestos by a factor of 10 to 1 causes cancer 16 and I take it that's so rt o f sim ilar to the 17 over nonexposed individuals, right? 17 Departm ent o f Labor here in the U.S.? 18 A. He's saying blue asbestos. 18 A. It is, yes. 19 Q. Right. Okay. 19 Q. -- "lays down a lim it of 5 m illion 20 If you'll turn the page, sir. And 20 asbestos dust particles per cubic foot of 21 at this tim e -- because I, I believe you said 22 that he was advocating am osite as a substitute 21 atm osphere. As is the case with the Ministry's 22 recom m endations for salacious dust, the value 23 at the end in his conclusions. A t this tim e 23 o f this recom m endation is restricted by the 24 Foseco is still using the blue asbestos; is 24 limited inform ation upon which it is based." 25 that right? 25 So I'll stop there. W hich is -- HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM 23 (Pages 86 to 89) ANTHONY MONEY Page 90 Page 92 1 that's sort o f a caveat, that there is a lim it 1 A. Correct. 2 that is set, but there's also limited 2 Q. And I think that's w hat w e w ere 3 inform ation upon which it's based, correct? 3 talking about before, that som e had already 4 A. That's w hat it says. 4 happened, o thers in w e re in th e process, right? 5 Q. "The Ministry takes no account of 5 A. Correct. 6 variations in individual susceptibility and 6 Q. The next paragraph says -- or the 7 does not specify the m ethod of analysis or give 7 next highlight, "Unfortunately, these nontoxic 8 any details of the average dim ensions of an 8 substitutes are alm ost invariably m ore 9 asbestos particle. No distinction is m ade 9 expensive than the m aterial they replace with 10 between the various form s o f asbestos." 10 the result that their use m ay not be a sound 11 So a few things. One, he's saying 11 co m m ercial pro po sitio n." 12 is th at for the people receiving this, they 12 So I'm going to stop there. T h is is 13 should be co nscious o f th e fa ct th a t th e re is 13 th e second referen ce now w e 've seen fro m 14 an individual susceptibility between people 14 som eone at Foseco w here they talk about how 15 that m ay m ake a iim it safe for som ebody and not 15 much m ore a nontoxic replacem ent costs than 16 safe for others. Is th at fair? 16 asbestos, correct? 17 MR. KADISH: Objection to the 17 MR. KADISH: Objection. O bject to 18 sum m ary, once again. 18 form . 19 THE WITNESS: I don't know how to 19 MR. INABINET: Object to form. 20 answer that. 20 THE W ITNESS: That's w hat they're 21 BY MR. PANATIER: 21 saying, b ut it, it w asn 't a question o f we, 22 Q. W ell, do you, do you agree with w hat 22 we -- if we found a substitute that was 23 I've said or not? 23 m ore expensive, that w e shouldn't use it 24 A. Yes, I agree with w hat you've said, 24 just because of the cost. 25 but I'm not technically qualified to m ake a 25 The m ain consideration w as that Page 91 Page 93 1 co m m ent on it. 1 if it made the product w ay too expensive 2 Q. Okay. He says, "No distinction is 2 for use by the steel mills. 3 made between the various forms of asbestos." 3 BY MR. PANATIER: 4 And, of course, we can take from that that what 4 Q. Objection; nonresponsive. 5 h e 's saying is there's a lim it o f 5 m illion 5 W hich also m eans they w ouldn't buy 6 particles per m illion o f asbestos dust in 6 it from you. 7 effect in th e U.K., and it applies to all form s 7 A. No, it m eans that -- let's -- I'll 8 of asbestos, correct? 9 A. Yes. 8 make an exam ple. If w e could com e up w ith a, 9 with a replacem ent that costs 10 tim es more, we 10 Q. All right. There's another 10 w ould m ake th a t pro duct available to th e steel 11 h ig hlig h t dow n at the bottom . "General: T h e 11 mill. A nd if they said w e ca nn o t afford to do 12 ideal solution is to replace toxic m aterials 12 that, th a t w ould be th eir choice. 13 such as silica and asbestos by nontoxic 14 m aterials such as olivine and synthetic mineral 13 It w ouldn't -- it isn't som ething 14 that Foseco w ould do to say, look, w e fo u n d a, 15 fibers." 15 a replacem ent, but it's m ore expensive so w e're 16 Now, does Foseco agree that across 16 not going to use it. 17 the board to the extent that there is a viable 18 substitute it should alw ays substitute a 17 Q. If the steel m ills w ouldn't buy the 18 replacem ent because th a t pro duct w a s too 19 nontoxic material for a toxic material? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. Okay. The next highlight says, "The 22 replacem ent of blue asbestos by am osite has 23 been recom m ended by Foseco International, 24 Limited, and undertaken by an increasing num ber 25 o f group com panies," right? 19 expensive, Foseco w o u ld n 't sell it, right? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. But in answ er to m y question, my 22 question was, this is now the second tim e we've 23 seen in the period o f ab o ut one y e a r in the 24 mid-1960s where nontoxic substitutes for 25 asbestos have been discussed and the fact that 24 (Pages 90 to 93) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 94 Page 96 1 they are m ore expensive than asbestos was 1 w orks is virtually ruled out for this reason." 2 mentioned, correct? 2 Did I read that right, first o f all? 3 MR. KADISH: Sam e objection; form. 3 A. I'm ju st trying to follow you. Yes, 4 THE WITNESS: Correct. They were 4 I think you did, yes. Let m e ju s t read it 5 m entioned because that's part of the work 5 again. 6 that they're doing. But that w as -- that 6 (W itness reviewed docum ent.) 7 did not influence w hether we could find 7 THE WITNESS: Correct. 8 asbestos replacem ent products or not. 8 BY MR. PANATIER: 9 BY MR. PANATIER: 9 Q. Okay. So Foseco is aw are o f a few 10 Q. Okay. I'm going to object to 10 things: One, that a pow er dust extraction 11 nonresponsive. 11 system can be m ade to co ntrol d u st from 12 Tw o tim es they have brought up price 12 Profax 10. 13 as a factor in considering a substitute, 13 A. Correct. 14 correct? 14 Q. They also know that steel m ills are 15 A. T h e y have b ro ugh t price up in -- as 15 not going to have those in place around the use 16 part o f th e discussion in looking at 16 o f Profax 10. Correct? 17 substitutes. 17 A. I don't know, no. I don't know 18 Q. It says, "Under such circum stances, 18 w here that com es from. 19 steps m ust be taken to reduce the am ount of 19 Q. W ell, here's w hat it says. "These 20 toxic m aterial entering the lungs o f persons 20 system s can prove to be prohibitively expensive 21 w orking w ith it." 21 and their use in steel w orks is virtually ruled 22 Persons w orking w ith it is not -- is 22 out for this reason." 23 not specific ju st to m anufacture because people 23 Did I read that right? 24 w ork with Foseco's hot tops when - after they 24 A. You read it right, but I don't know 25 are manufactured, correct? 25 w hether that -- the steel m ills w ould, would Page 95 Page 97 1 A. Correct. 1 certainly have, have methods of controlling 2 Q. Okay. "Respirators are the least 2 whatever risks they had. 3 satisfactory m ethod for protecting men working 3 Q. Sir, did you ever visit a steel mill 4 in to xic dusts." 4 where you saw power dust extraction systems 5 Does Foseco agree with that? 5 being used in the hot top loadings -- loading 6 A. It, it depends w hat it's com pared 6 stations? 7 to. If, if that's all you had and you didn't 7 A. No, no. 8 have dust extractors or dust collectors, 8 Q. How many tim es have you been to 9 whatever. 9 Arm co Butler? 10 Q. Right. W hat that, that -- what 10 A. I have never been to Arm co Butler. 11 th at's saying is, and you know this, is 11 Q. Go ahead and turn the page. 12 respirators are tough to train. They're tough 12 This says, "W here cutting, grinding 13 to w ear, esp ecially in hot environm ents. You 13 filing or" -- is th at linishing? Is th at a 14 have to have o th er engineering controls in 14 word? 15 place first, and respirators should be a last 15 A. Yes. 16 resort. Is that fair? 16 Q. Okay. W hat is linishing? 17 A. Yes. 17 A. It's, it's taking - I'll use a 18 Q. Okay. Go ahead and turn to the next 18 sim ple -- this isn't technically correct, but 19 page. There's a highlight there. "Power dust 19 it's, it's just taking the -- any rough edge 20 extraction system s can be made to control dust 20 that may be on the boards once it com es out of 21 very effectively and should be considered 21 the oven. 22 seriously for any particularly hazardous 22 Q. Okay. All right. So w hat it says, 23 operation such as cutting or grinding Profax. 23 "W here cutting, grinding, filing, or linishing 24 On a large scale, these system s can prove to be 24 becom e necessary in Profax m anufacture, 25 prohibitively expensive, and th eir use in steel 25 atm ospheric contam ination by silica and HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM 25 (Pages 94 to 97) ANTHONY MONEY Page 98 Page 100 1 asbestos can attain dangerous levels. Blue 1 itself for end users that said if you are 2 asbesto s if used w ill now be in a dry, dusty 2 installing or rem oving these boards you should 3 state and will consequently be very dangerous 3 w ear a respirator? 4 even in a single exposure." 4 A. No. 5 A. I'm, I'm -- yeah, I'm trying to 5 Q. Okay. If you'll go to the next 6 follow you again. It's all bracketed rather. 6 highlight, it's at the end of that paragraph, 7 Let m e ju st read it again. 7 that's w here he says w e should elim inate blue 8 Q. Sure. 8 in favor o f am osite, right? 9 A. Correct. 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. Okay? 10 Q. Som e folks w ere still using it 11 A. Yes. 11 w ithin th e Foseco com panies; but a s y o u 'v e 12 Q. Now, my question for you is as far 12 said, in th e U.S. they w ere not, right? 13 as how the m anufacture o f Profax took place, 13 A. Correct. 14 there's no difference between the final product 14 Q. O kay. "Profax in the custom ers' 15 in term s of its dry, dustiness, w hether you're 15 w orks," now, they're talking about the steel 16 using chrysotile, am osite, or crocidolite, 16 m ills, right? 17 correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 MR. KADISH: Objection. I'm not the 18 Q. "There is no doubt th at in the 19 sure how he would know that. 19 present form of Profax w e are supplying a 20 MR. P A N A T E R : I'm asking if him if 20 product w hich under unfavorable circum stances 21 he knows. 21 can give rise to toxic levels o f atm ospheric 22 THE W ITNESS: W ell, I know that we 22 contam ination by silica and asbestos." 23 w ere not using blue a t the time. That's 23 Now, sir, that's true w hether it w as 24 w hy I'm hesitant. 24 blue, brown, or w hite asbestos, right? 25 25 A. That's correct. Page 99 Page 101 1 BY MR. PANATIER: 1 Q. Okay. If you'll go to the last 2 Q. Right. W hat he's saying is blue, if 2 page. It says, "In laboratory experim ents" -- 3 used, and it com es out o f th e m anufacture in a 3 A. W ait a minute. 4 dry, dusty state, okay, would be very 4 MR. INABINET: W ait a minute. 5 dangerous. 5 BY MR. PANATIER: 6 My question is the fact that 6 Q. I'm sorry. Second-to-last page -- 7 som ething contains chrysotile or am osite as it 7 third-to-last page -- fourth-to-last page. The 8 did in the future, okay, or a com bination of 8 page marked 12. How about that? 9 both, doesn't make it a nondusty product, 9 A. I g o t it. I got it. 10 correct? 10 Q. I'm going to get som e more coffee at 11 MR. INABINET: Objection to form. 11 a break. 12 TH E WITNESS: It, it - there's a 12 All right. On page 12, sir, it 13 product that com es out o f the oven and it's 13 says, "In laboratory experim ents conducted at 14 in a dry state. And there is som e - or 14 Foseco International, Limited, it w as found 15 there was on som e cases som e linishing of 15 that 1 pound o f Profax ash contained a total of 16 those boards, and they - the people had 17 respirators and we had dust extractors 18 there. 19 BY MR. PANATIER: 16 .424 gram s o f respirable m atter of w hich 1.8 17 gram s was asbestos." 18 Did I read that right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. So for the folks who were just 21 knocking corners off from the manufacturing 22 process, those folks had to w ear respirators? 20 Q. W hen it says Profax ash, I assum e 21 w hat they're saying there is after it has been 22 through the steelm aking process; is that fair? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. As of this date, did Foseco put a 25 warning on its packaging or on the boards 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. So this is the used Profax boards? 25 A. W hatever's left o f the boards. 26 (Pages 98 to 101) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 102 Page 104 1 Q. W hatever's left. 1 35. 2 So this is - they're actually 2 Q. Okay. That's a size o f mold that 3 reporting w here they did look at the leftover 3 you m ight see? 4 board m aterial after steelm aking? 4 A. Yeah. I'm not saying -- I'm making 5 MR. INABINET: Objection; form. 5 an exam ple. I don't know w hether that's true 6 THE W ITNESS: That's correct. Yes. 6 or not. 7 BY MR. PANATTER: 7 Q. But just as by w ay of exam ple, if 8 Q. All right. It says in th e next 8 you have a mold w here the top of the mold where 9 highlight, "Assum ing that the asbestos 9 the hot tops would go is 25 inches by 30 10 particles averaged 30 m icrons in length by 1 10 inches, then does that m ean you have 25-inch 11 m icron in diam eter, this m eans th a t 1 pound o f 11 boards and 30-inch boards? 12 Profax can give rise to 756 m illion particles 12 A. Yes. 13 o f asbestos." 13 Q. Okay. And how, how thick are those 14 Did I read that right? 14 boards? 15 A. You did. 15 A. About an inch-and-a-half on average. 16 Q. Okay. Now, how m any pounds -- well, 16 Q. How deep are they on average? 17 you give m e -- I have never worked in a steel 17 A. It depends on the application, but 18 mill. I don't know if you can tell. 18 let's m ake - 2 feet, say. 19 But how, how big is -- do you know 19 Q. Okay. So you, you may -- and this 20 how big the, the m olds w ere at Arm co Butler? 20 varies obviously with the application. You may 21 A. I can't rem em ber them, but w e have 21 have a board that's basically 25 inches by 24 22 inform ation that show s the mold sizes. 22 inches by one inch thick or you m ay have one 23 Q. Okay. A bout how big are they? 23 that's 30 inches long by one inch thick by 24 24 A. I d o n 't know w h a t - fo r w hat 24 inches deep, right? 25 purpose? I mean, it could be - do you mean 25 A. Yes. Page 103 Page 105 1 the mold size? If this is a mold, do you mean 1 Q. How much do, do - does the 30-inch 2 the total size of this mold? 2 board weigh? 3 Q. That's a good, that's a good 3 A. I have no idea. 4 question. Here, I'll clarify my question for 4 Q. You know, I saw som e literature, and 5 you. Okay? 5 we may address this a little bit later, that 6 In just your -- for whatever the, 6 ultim ately Foseco also offered a one-piece -- 7 the m ost general testim ony you can give is, 7 A. Yes. 8 okay, for Profax boards, hot tops, what's the 8 Q. -- hot top. So instead o f having to 9 average size? 9 put in all fo u r sides, you could ju s t put one 10 A. There isn't such a thing as an 10 piece in, right? 11 average size. 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. W hat's the one that was sold the 12 Q. A nd I saw in the, in th e catalog 13 most? 13 th at w eighed ab o ut 38 pounds. D oes that sound 14 A. I don't know. It depended on the 14 about right?. 15 ingot. Every steel mill had various ingot 15 A. It could be, yes. 16 sizes. 16 Q. So if you had a 38-pound hot top, we 17 Q. Okay. 17 could take this num ber, 756 m illion particles 18 A. And they were usually unique to that 18 o f asbestos, and m ultiply it by 38 and that 19 steel mill. 19 w ould tell us how m any particles o f asbestos, 20 Q. For the big end down m olds at Arm co 20 at least in Foseco's understanding, th ere w ould 21 Butler, how big would the hot tops be? 21 be in one o f those products, right? 22 A. Various. It depends on the mold. 22 MR. INABINET: Objection to form. 23 Q. Okay. W ell, give me an example. 23 THE WITNESS: I'm not technically 24 A. Well, this - if this is the ingot 24 qualified to answer. It sounds reasonable, 25 mold, the top could be, let's say, 25 by 30 or 25 but I don't know. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGAlION.COM 27 (Pages 102 to 105) ANTHONY MONEY Page 106 Page 108 1 BY MR. PANA7IER: 1 BY MR. PANATTER: 2 Q. I mean, I'm, I'm barely technically 2 Q. W here does the other 37 pounds go? 3 qualified, by I think gram m ar school, gram m ar 3 MR. INABINET: Objection. 4 school, m aybe middle school math can get us 4 THE W ITNESS: I don't know. I'm not 5 there. 38 - 38 pounds tim es 756 m illion in 1 5 - - 1 can't m ake any sense able com m ent on 6 pound -- 6 that. I just don't know. 7 A. Yeah. 7 BY MR. PANATTER: 8 Q. -- gives us an approxim ation, right? 8 Q. Are you saying that you believe it's 9 A. Correct. 9 possible that if you have a 38-pound hot top 10 MR. INABINET: Sam e objection. 10 that there m ight be ju st 1 pound o f ash left? 11 BY MR. PANAT1ER: 11 A. No. 12 Q. And they're talking about the 12 MR. INABINET: Objection. 13 leftover dust, right? 13 TH E W ITNESS: No, I don't know, but, 14 A. Correct. 14 no, it doesn't -- I can't m ake a sensible 15 MR. INABINET: Objection. 15 com m ent on it. I don't know. 16 BY MR. PANATTER: 16 BY MR. PANATTER: 17 Q. Foseco knows as of 1965 that there 17 Q. You would expect - because you've 18 are hundreds o f m illions o f asbestos fibers 18 seen used hot tops, right? 19 left over after the steelm aking process, 19 A. No, I don't think I have. 20 correct? 20 Q. You've never seen a used hot top? 21 MR. INABINET: Objection. 21 A. No. 22 T H E W ITN ESS: I, I, I ca n't answ er. 22 Q. Have you ever been to a steel m ill? 23 I'm not - - 1 can't answ er that question. 23 A. I w orked at a steel mill. 24 BY MR. PANATTER: 24 Q. Okay. Did you w ork around any hot 25 Q. That's w hat they say here, is it 25 tops? Page 107 Page 109 1 not, sir? 1 A. No. 2 MR. INABINET: Objection. 2 Q. W hen did you w ork there? 3 THE WITNESS: Yeah, but what you - 3 A. I worked for a steel mill from 1959 4 but it doesn't say - you're saying of a 4 until 1970. 5 38-pound board. It doesn't mean to say 5 Q. So as a young man? 6 there's 38 pounds o f ash left. 6 A. Yes. 7 BY MR. PANATTER: 7 Q. Okay. Foseco -- you're here as 8 Q. W hat this is saying is - okay. 8 Foseco. Can Foseco give the jury any 9 Well, you're fam iliar with - 1 know 9 appreciation for how much hot top is left after 10 you w ere prim arily in finance and 10 th e steelm aking process? 11 adm inistration. But you're fam iliar w ith the 11 A. I have no idea. 12 principle th at yo.u can't really destroy matter, 12 MR. INABINET: Objection. 13 right? 13 BY MR. PANATTER: 14 A. Correct. 14 Q. Can you do it by percentage volum e? 15 MR. INABINET: Objection. 15 A. No. I don't know. I can't answer 16 BY MR. PANATIER: 16 your question. 17 Q. Okay. So how much ash approximately 17 Q. I will m ark the next exhibit then. 18 do you have - does Foseco believe w ould be 18 (Money Deposition Exhibit No. 9 19 left from a 38-pound board? 19 w as m arked for identification.) 20 A. I have no idea. 20 MR. INABINET: Is there som ething 21 Q. Certainly, sir, you can agree it's 21 highlighted, Chris? 22 more than one pound, right? 22 MR. PANATIER: No, no, because I'm 23 MR. INABINET: Objection. 23 ju st - I'm responding to som ething that he 24 MR. KADISH: Objection. 24 ju st brought up. 25 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 25 MR. INABINET: Okay. 28 (Pages 106 to 109) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 110 Page 112 1 MR. PANATIER: It looks like m aybe 1 or after - I'm not sure. 2 tw o catalogs, but I'm going to refer to the 2 BY MR. PANATIER: 3 first one. 3 Q. During use w here do the boards go? 4 MR. INABINET: Okay. 4 A. If I can show you? 5 BY MR. PANATIER: 5 Q. Yeah, yeah, please. 6 Q. Sir, is th at a Foseco advertisem ent 6 A. The boards would go here. 7 or catalog? 7 Q. Do they fit on th at lip? 8 A. It is a Foseco brochure indicating 8 A. W ell, I d on 't think it, it w as a 9 the products available. 9 lip. It m ay have been a lip a t the tim e. But 10 Q. Okay. So that brochure, if you turn 10 th a t's - it is a lip now . B u t th at's w h ere 11 to th e third page, I believe it is, do you see 11 th e b o a rd s w o u ld go. 12 that w here they show an exam ple o f a used ingot 12 Q. Okay. So they would fit -- 13 w ith used a hot top on it? 13 there's - basically, th e bottom of the ingot 14 A. Show me. 14 is thicker than the top of the ingot. 15 Q. The second, the second group. 15 A. Not necessarily. 16 A. This? 16 Q. W ell, th e re it is. 17 Q. Yeah. Do you see where they do 17 A. T h e - I'm not sure I can answ er 18 that? 18 your question w ithout confusing you. I'm 19 MR. INABINET: I mean, are you 19 trying to understand you r question. 20 pointing at a picture, Chris? 20 Q. Yeah. In the picture, the, the 21 BY MR. PANATIER: 21 bottom portion o f th e ingot appears to be 22 Q. The picture on the far right, that 22 w ider - 23 picture, yes, sir. W hat is that a picture of? 23 A. Than this top piece. 24 A.- He says this is the top o f an ingot 24 Q. -- than the top portion? 25 cast with the aid o f Foseco Profax insulating 25 A. That's correct. Page 111 Page 113 1 hot top. There is no shrinkage cavity at the 1 Q. Thicker was a bad, bad use -- a bad 2 top o f this ingot. 2 word. 3 Q. Okay. So that is - he says that is 3 A. Okay. 4 an ingot cast. So w e know that's after it's 4 Q. It is less w ide on top because of 5 been poured, correct? 5 the m old o r because o f the boards in the m old? 6 A. Correct. 6 A. It depends if it w as big end up or 7 Q. And that's a picture o f the actual 7 big end down, w hich is w hy I'm hesitant. So 8 ingot with the -- with som e leftover stuff on 8 let me answ er it on a big end down because it's 9 top, right? 9 pretty easy. 10 MR. KADISH: Objection to form. 10 If, if this is a big-end down mold, 11 T H E W ITN ESS: It's, it's stu ff on 11 w h a t w ould happen is th e re w ould be a casting 12 top w hich is not Profax. 12 put on to p and then there w ould be a sm all 13 BY MR. PANATIER: 13 opening w h ere w e w ould p ut the, th e product. 14 Q. Okay. They've pulled away the, the 14 And that w ould be significantly less than the 15 Profax, right? 15 d im en sion s o f th e ingot m old. That's w h y I'm 16 A. Or it's fallen away. 16 h esitant in h o w to an sw e r it correctly. 17 Q. Okay. But th e shape o f th e ingot is 17 Q. So the -- when you say "the 18 intact, correct? 18 product," you're talking about the hot tops? 19 A. Yes. 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. Okay. W hat kept it intact? 21 A. I don't know what you mean, what 22 kept it intact. 20 Q. The hot tops -- by virtue of the hot 21 tops being present, the end of the, o f the 22 ingot w here they are located will be less wide 23 Q. Well, okay. W here would the Profax 24 boards go? 25 MR. INABINET: Objection. After use 23 than the rest o f the ingot. Is that fair? 24 MR. INABINET: Objection. 25 T H E W ITNESS: Let me see. Yes, it HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGAT[ON.COM 29 (Pages 110 to 113) ANTHONY MONEY Page 114 Page 116 1 would. 1 pound of ash? 2 BY MR. PANATIER: 2 MR. INABINET: Objection; form . 3 Q. Okay. 3 MR. KADISH: Objection. 4 A. For that, for that small portion at 4 TH E W ITNESS: I ca n 't answ er that. 5 the head. 5 MR. PANATIER: And, guys, can I ask 6 Q. Sure. W hen you w ere w orking In th e 6 you, ju st one o f your object, please. 7 steel mill, w ere they using hot tops at that 7 BY MR. PANATIER: 8 time? 8 Q. Okay. All right. Sir, if you'll 9 A. Yes. 9 turn, please, to the next page. T here's the 10 Q. Okay. Did you have an opportunity 10 sum m ary that you brought up earlier? 11 to see how m uch m aterial w as left o v er after 11 A. Yes. 12 the pouring process? 12 Q. Okay. And he's saying am osite is a 13 A. No. I never looked. 13 perfectly sa tisfa cto ry su b stitu te fo r blue, 14 Q. Okay. W ere you one o f the guys who 14 right? 15 installed hot tops? 15 A. Correct. 16 A. No. 16 Q. Now, does he say from a health 17 Q. Okay. All right. You can set that 17 perspective or does he say from a technical 18 aside, sir. 18 perspective? 19 A. Are you done with this one as well, 19 A. It, it doesn't say. 20 Exhibit 8? 20 Q. Okay. Because w e know from a health 21 Q. Let me ju st -- no. 21 perspective he said that am osite and 22 A. Okay. 22 crocidolite are the m ost dangerous fibers, 23 Q. Just to finish up this little line 23 right? 24 o f questioning, on page 12, they, they took a 24 A. Correct. 25 pound of ash. 25 Q. But w e all -- but w e do know that Page 115 Page 117 1 A. Let me get to page 12 again. Yeah. 1 am osite would do the job technically ju st as 2 Q. They took one pound of ash. And as 2 well as the crocidolite, true? 3 Foseco, you're saying I don't know how much hot 3 A. Correct. 4 top you need to create one pound o f ash; is 4 Q. Okay. He doesn't specifically call 5 that right? 5 out in paragraph 1 a n y co m pa riso n regarding 6 A. Well, I'm answering for myself, and 6 health, right? 7 I don't know what Foseco's -- I've had no 7 A. He does not. 8 discussion or no knowledge of what Foseco's 8 Q. Let's see here. He goes on in 2 and 9 understanding is. 9 he says, "In our works, powder dust" -- 10 Q. Right. And you're -- but you're 10 "powered dust extraction m ust be applied to all 11 here as Foseco. So I'm asking Foseco, can 11 locations w h ere Profax is saw n o r gro un d . G ood 12 Foseco testify how much original hot top is 12 ventilation m ust be provided at m ixing 13 needed to generate one pound o f ash? 13 platform s. O vera lls m ust be re g u la rly 14 A. And I don't know. I don't know. 14 laundered to prevent accum ulating dust and dry 15 MR. INABINET: Objection; asked and 15 slu rry ." 16 answered. 16 So there he's talking about 17 BY MR. PANATIER: 17 precautions to prevent exp o su re, tru e? 18 Q. W ill you agree th a t in using a - 18 A. Correct. 19 the dim ensions you described before, 35 - 30 19 Q. He says, "Ideally, regular m edical 20 inches by 25 inches, so you would have a - the 20 exam ination should be conducted upon all 21 top, the hot top area would be 30 by 25 by 30 21 personnel handling Profax and periodic dust 22 by 25 by 24 deep and one-inch thick, correct? 22 m onitoring o f the atm osphere m ay be advisable." 23 A. Yes. Or one-and-a-half. 23 Correct? 24 Q. Okay. Can you agree that after the 25 steelmaking process you would have at least one 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. He does not say if we m ove to 30 (Pages 114 to 117) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 118 Page 120 1 am osite w e d o n 't have to do these things, does 1 than the cheapest form s o f asbestos," right? 2 he? 2 A. That's w hat he says, yes. 3 A. He does not say that. 3 Q. Okay. All right, sir. W e are done 4 Q. Paragraph 4, "Recom m endations 1 to 3 4 with th at one. 5 would becom e inoperative. In other words, they 5 TH E VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the 6 w ouldn't have to do those things if Profax w ere 6 video record at 11:56 a.m. at the end of 7 form ulated from nontoxic m aterials." Correct? 7 T a p e 2. 8 A. Correct. 8 (W hereupon, a recess w as taken.) 9 Q. "O livine is still" -- is th at how 9 TH E VIDEOGRAPHER: Going back on the 10 you say that? 10 video record at 12:04 p.m. at the beginning 11 A. Olivine, yes. 11 o f T a pe 3 in the deposition o f Anthony 12 Q. Olivine. 12 Money. 13 "O livine is still the best 13 (M oney Deposition Exhibit No. 10 14 substitute for silica, so fa r exam ined. 14 w as m arked for identification.) 15 C urrent exp erim en ts indicate th a t chopped glass 15 BY MR. PANATIER: 16 fiber, ab o u t l/ 8 th s inch 3 m illim eters length, 16 Q. All right. Sir, I will show you 17 is a suitable substitute for asbestos but this 17 Exhibit 10. Sir, this is a Foseco -- again, 18 m aterial is very expensive." 18 this is International. T his is U.K., right? 19 And there again he talks about it 19 A. Yes. 20 being suitable technically but th at it's 20 Q. - research and developm ent report 21 expensive, correct? 21 on the use o f synthetic inorganic fibers to 22 A. Yeah. So as I've said, w e tried it 22 replace asbestos in Profax. And if you turn 23 and it would not work. 23 the page, it's February 22nd, 1967, true? 24 Q. Right. "Initial experim ents with 24 A. Correct. 25 slag w ool have been partly successful but 25 Q. A t this point, Foseco has been Page 119 Page 121 1 difficulty has been encountered in form ing the 1 selling asbestos-containing hot tops for around 2 flange o f a Profax slab. T h is is probably 2 two years. 3 associated with fiber length and will be 3 A. Correct. 4 investigated vigorously in the near future, 4 Q. It started som etim e in '65? 5 particularly because slag wool is a very cheap" 5 A. Correct. 6 -- "very attractively priced material and costs 6 Q. W e 're now in early '67, true? 7 less than the cheapest form of asbestos." 7 A. Right. 8 Did I read that right? 8 Q. All right. It says, "Synopsis." 9 A. Yes. 9 "M any of these m aterials" -- well, actually, it 10 Q. So he's saying we're trying to use 10 w ould be better for context. 11 slag, slag w ool. 11 It says, "Synopsis. This report 12 A. Yes. 12 gives a full an alysis o f th e technical 13 Q. It's not going so hot right now, but 13 properties, cost, and availab ility o f inorganic 14 we're going to really try vigorously because 14 synthetic fibers fo r the replacem ent o f 15 it's even ch e a p er than asbestos, right? 15 asbestos in side insulators." 16 A. No, I don't think he's saying that. 16 Side insulators is hot tops, right? 17 He's saying th a t w e're going to try various 17 A . It's th e boards, correct. 18 things, o n e o f w hich is slag w ool, and by the 18 Q. The boards. Okay. 19 way, it's cheaper than asbestos. He's not -- 19 "Many of these m aterials are too 20 he's not saying we should try it because it's 20 costly to use at the present time. The results 21 cheaper. 21 show, however, that certain synthetic fibers of 22 Q. W ell, he actually says "and will be 22 the slag w ool type are econom ically viable and 23 investigated vigorously in the near future, 23 bestow other technical im provem ents upon the 24 particularly because slag wool is a very 24 product as well as the all im portant removal of 25 attractively priced m aterial and costs less 25 the risk of asbestosis?" HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM 31 (Pages 118 to 121) ANTHONY MONEY Page 122 Page 124 1 Did I read that right? 1 A. No. 2 A. Yes, you did. 2 Q. W hat about '65? 3 Q. Okay. He says that many of the 3 A. No. 4 m aterials are too costly to use, but he does 4 Q. Okay. Go to the next highlight. 5 call out the slag wool which w e saw in the 5 "Asbestosis health statistics w ere beginning to 6 previous memo, right? 6 show that lung tissue carcinom a could occur 7 A. Correct. 7 only after exposure to crocidolite. Foseco 8 Q. Okay. Turn the page to 8 International, Lim ited, im m ediately w arned the 9 "Introduction." It says, "The tw o industrial 9 w hole group of this danger and because o f very 10 diseases, silicosis and asbestosis, have been 10 rapid and detailed w ork by Foseco (FS) Lim ited 11 recognized by both Foseco and S a ndviken as th e 11 w e re a b le to re co m m e nd an a lte rn a tiv e g rad e o f 12 m ajor disadvantages o f Profax sin ce its 12 asbestos th at avoided this carcinom a risk." 13 inception." 13 Now, w e looked at the prior docum ent 14 Now, w hat is Sandviken? 14 from '65. And at no point did it e ve r say 15 A. Sandviken is a Sw edish com pany th at 15 am osite had no carcinom a risk; did it? 16 developed the Profax-type boards o r w ays of hot 16 A. I need to read the report again. 17 topping ingots. 17 Q. Go ahead. I think it w as page 14 or 18 Q. Is that one of the -- is th at one of 18 15, or the conclusions, if you w ant to look at 19 the Foseco com panies? 19 that. 20 A. No. 20 A. I don't think it m entions th at at 21 Q. It's ju st another com pany? 21 all. 22 A. It's just another company. 22 Q. Okay. In fact, you're, you're not 23 Q. Okay. So w hat Foseco is saying 23 aw are of any docum ent to this point that was 24 here -- w hat this gentlem an, who is a Foseco 24 put together by Foseco International or Foseco, 25 em ployee, correct? 25 Inc., w here they said, oh, am osite is free o f a Page 123 Page 125 1 A. Let me -- I don't - let me just 1 carcinom a risk, correct? 2 check. He's a - he's a Foseco International 2 A. I don't know w hether - I can't 3 employee. 3 recall seeing one that says that, no. 4 Q. Right. He's - and, of course, 4 Q. And that's w hat I'm asking. You 5 Foseco - is Foseco, Inc., in the U.S.? 5 can't recall having seen it? 6 A. Foseco, Inc., is in the U.S. 6 A. I can't recall, no. 7 Q. Foseco, Inc., would have received 7 Q. To continue, "W e - "W e're now in a 8 this? 8 position to sell a product o f very low 9 A. Yes. 9 silicosis risk and w e thought insignificant 10 Q. Okay. Foseco, Inc. - and actually, 10 asbesto sis risk. A s re sp ira to ry d isea se 11 the previous exhibit th at w e w e n t through, 11 research has progressed, it has b ecom e m ore 12 Foseco, Inc., w ould have received th at - not, 13 not the catalog. The other one. 12 a p p a ren t th a t a sb esto sis is a v e ry serio u s 13 co m pla in t th a t can re sult fro m very low 14 MR. INABINET: Exhibit 8. 14 exposure levels." 15 BY MR. PANATIER: 15 Did I read that right? 16 Q. The W ashburn paper. 16 A. Yes. 17 A. Yes, it definitely did, yes. 17 Q. Okay. "Foseco as a large 18 Q. All right. W hat Mr. McGrath says is 19 th at since Profax's inception, Foseco has know n 20 that the major disadvantage o f the product is 18 responsible supplier of industrial products 19 m ust how ever recognize the significance o f the 20 m edical statistics and take all steps to ensure 21 silicosis and asbestosis, correct? 21 that its product is n ot only useful and 22 A. Correct. 22 econom ic but also safe to use." 23 Q. All right. Did silicosis or 24 asbestosis appear as a warning starting in 1967 25 on the product? 23 Did I read that right? 24 A. Yes, you did. 25 Q. Okay. At this time, did Foseco 32 (Pages 122 to 125) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGAT10N.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 126 Page 128 1 provide any w arning, adm onishm ent, sta tem e n t in 1 Q. - is that the Australia Foseco 2 any of its brochures, m anuals, catalogs, that 2 entity had been using a w heat flour bonded 3 the asbestosis risk from Profax can occur from 3 Profax th at did not need asbestos, true? 4 very low-level exposures? 4 A. It's saying they did, yes. 5 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 5 Q. W e also know that they didn't need 6 TH E W ITNESS: No, w e did not. 6 asb esto s sin ce they start had doing it, right? 7 BY MR. PANATIER: 7 A. That's w hat it says, yes. 8 Q. Okay. If you'll turn the page, 8 Q. But the rest o f the Foseco group as 9 please, sir. "The advent of w heat flou r bonded 9 a w hole didn't use w heat flour because there 10 Profax gave considerable hopes of elim inating 10 w asn't - it w asn't cost advantageous, correct? 11 asbestos w ithout replacing it." 11 A. No. I think it's saying -- it says 12 Now, w h eat flour, w h at is that? 12 the group as a whole, however, w as unm oved by 13 A. I d on't know. T echnically, I d o n 't 13 the co st advantages. It - to m e I read th at 14 know. 14 w h e a t flo u r, th e y tried it in A u stra lia and it 15 Q. It's some, it's som e m aterial that 15 w orked and it w as cheaper. T h at's w hat - 16 they w ere hoping would elim inate the need for 16 that's the w ay I look at it - I read that. 17 asbestos, right? 17 Q. Oh, okay. So w e can be clear as far 18 A. It w as another look at asbestos 18 as you how read it as, Foseco w as aw are o f a 19 replacement, correct. 19 replacem ent for asbestos that w as cheaper to 20 Q. "The Australian com pany" -- w hat are 20 m ake and decided not to use it? 21 they talking about there? 21 A. No, it -- 22 A. T h e Foseco com pany in, in Australia. 22 MR. IN ABIN ET: Objection; form . 23 Q. All right. 23 T H E W ITNESS: No, that's not, that's 24 - "went ahead with this recipe and 24 not. H e's saying at this point in tim e and 25 have never used asbestos since." 25 w hen th ey tried it in A u stralia for Page 127 Page 129 1 Now, sir, you've seen this docum ent 1 w hatever the steel practices they had at 2 before, right? 2 the tim e it Worked there. But w e could 3 A. Yes, I have. 3 never get it to w ork elsewhere. W e 4 Q. You were aware that one of the 4 certainly -- w e tried it in th e U.S.A. and 5 Foseco groups had used this w heat flour bonded 5 w e couldn't get it to work. 6 Profax and never needed to use asbestos again, 6 BY MR. PANATIER: 7 right? 7 Q. Does it say they tried it right 8 A. That's what it says, yes. 8 there? 9 Q. "The group as a whole, however, was 9 A. No, but I know we did. W e tried 10 unmoved by the cost advantage o f w heat flour 10 everything that other com panies were, w ere 11 and therefore unlikely to be ab le to take 11 trying to use. W e also tried to see if w e 12 advantage of the asbestos rem oval 12 co u ld g et it to w o rk on, on th e steel m ills in 13 potentialities o f this bonding" -- "o f th is 13 th e U.S.A. 14 bonding system s." 14 Q. Okay. I'm going to object to 15 Did I read that right? 15 nonresponsive. 16 A. I'm ju st trying -- I'm trying to 16 Does it say here that they tried 17 read it with you. Yes, did you. 17 w h e a t flour, th e w h ea t flo u r bonded Profax in 18 Q. Okay. And I apologize. I tend to 18 the U.S.? 19 move fast. So I can slow down as -- 19 A. No. 20 A. No, no, you go ahead, and I'll tell 20 Q. Does it give any other reason except 21 you if I'm struggling. 21 for discussing cost as far as w hy it w as not 22 Q. So w hat w e know from this 22 being used by the rest o f the group? 23 docum ent - and it's a docum ent that w ent to 24 all the Foseco com panies, correct? 23 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 24 THE W ITNESS: I don't know how to 25 A. Yes. 25 read that. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM 33 (Pages 126 to 129) ANTHONY MONEY Page 130 Page 132 1 BY MR. PANATIER: 1 su fficient data to en able all com pan ies in the 2 Q. You told us the w ay you read it is 2 g ro u p to replace asbestos in th e ir product 3 it appeared that w heat flou r w as actually 3 w ithout sacrifice o f properties." 4 cheaper. It was a cost advantage over 4 Did I read that right? 5 asbestos, correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 A. W ell, it's -- 6 Q. So w h at International is saying -- 7 MR. KADISH: Asked and answered. 7 and is this the, the parent com pany o f all the 8 THE W ITNESS: It's not clear to me 8 other com panies? 9 w hat it m eans. But all I'm telling you is 9 A. No. 10 w e tried w heat flour and it did not work. 10 Q. Is it ju st a sister com pany? 11 BY MR. PANATIER: 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. H ow w as steel m ade in Australia 12 Q. Okay. So this is a sister com pany 13 differently th an it w as m ade here th a t it 13 o f all the oth er com panies. And w h a t this -- 14 worked in Australia and it didn't w ork here? 14 w h at this com pany is saying is this report 15 A. It could be sm aller ingots. It 15 contains sufficient data to enable all 16 could be pouring tem p e ratu res. It co u ld be 16 com panies, -- th at includes the U.S. com pany, 17 sam e as th e M iddletow n q uestion you asked m e 17 right? 18 before. M aybe, m aybe th ey did d iffe re n t 18 A. Yes. 19 practices th a t allow ed it. 19 Q. -- to replace asbestos in th eir 20 Q. To your knowledge, did Foseco ever 20 product w ithout sacrifice o f properties. True? 21 offer a w heat flour bonded Profax in th e U.S. 21 A. Correct. 22 and say if you alter your steelm aking procedure 22 Q. T hat w as their opinion, right? 23 as follows, you can use a 23 A. Correct. 24 nonasbestos-containing Profax? 24 Q. Have you seen any correspondence 25 A. No, w e didn't. 25 fro m the U.S. com pany in response to this Page 131 Page 133 1 Q. W as that, to your knowledge, ever 1 technical com m unication that says, no, you're 2 even thought of as a potential alternative to 2 w rong; w e tried w heat flour, it doesn't w ork? 3 selling all asbestos Profax at that tim e? 3 A. Not that I can recall seeing, no. 4 A. You mean wheat flour? 4 Q. Okay. You can set that aside, sir. 5 Q. Yes. 5 And that w as February '67, correct, 6 A. No. W e tried w heat flour and it 6 that w e w ere looking at? 7 would not work. 7 A. It was 22nd o f February, I think, 8 Q. Because you said of the way steel 8 1967. Yeah. 9 was m ade in the U.S., right? 9 Q. Okay. As o f '67, the U.K. com pany 10 A. I'm assum ing that. I know that when 10 that you started at three years later was 11 they tried w heat flo u r in form ing and trying 11 saying to e v e ryb o d y else th ere is a su ita b le 12 finished products it w ould not w o rk in the 12 su b stitu te fo r asbesto s, right? 13 U.S.A. fo r w hatever reason. A nd I'm not 13 A. They're saying there's a possible 14 technically qualified to answ er w h a t the 14 suit, suitable. I - it w asn't a replacem ent. 15 technical reason is. 15 W e could not get them to work. 16 Q. My question, though, is did Foseco 16 Q. Did they say possible substitute? 17 ever say w e can offer a w heat flour bonded 17 A. No. 18 Profax that does not have asbestos if your 18 Q. T hey said there w as a substitute; 19 metal m anufacturing process is as follow s? 19 didn't they? 20 MR. KADISH: Objection. That's been 20 A. They did. 21 asked and answered. 21 Q. Okay. This next one will be Exhibit 22 THE WITNESS: No, no. I'm not aware 22 12. 23 of that at all. 24 BY MR. PANATIER: 23 MR. INABINET: 11. 24 MR. PANATIER: Oh, it's 11. 25 Q. "This present report contains 25 34 (Pages 130 to 133) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITTGATTON.COM ANTHONY MONEY 1 (M oney Deposition Exhibit No. 11 2 was m arked for identification.) 3 BY MR. PANATIER: 4 Q. Have you seen that before, sir? 5 A. I have. 6 Q. Now, can you tell w hat the date of 7 that docum ent is by looking at it? 8 A. No, but I've looked -- it looks as 9 if it's early '67. 10 Q. Right. It references som e kind of 11 g old d ate s at th e end -- 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. - that are all '67? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. And the first one is May, right? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. Okay. So this is a proposal for a 18 research product, right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Is this Foseco, Inc., in th e U.S.? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. All right. 23 A. I'm not - w ait a m inute. I'm ju st 24 looking at the distribution. I don't know 25 w ith o u t reading it. I f I ca n g e t so m e Page 134 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 136 Q. O kay. A nd h ere in '67, w h ich e ve r co m pan y -- Foseco co m pan y this is, is saying they're still trying to develop one, right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. You can set that aside. Sir, it is true that w e've already seen that Cape Asbestos and North Am erican Asbestos Corporation - North Am erican Asbestos Corporation directly provided Foseco with inform ation about asbestos hazards. MR. KADISH: Objection; asked and answered. TH E W ITNESS: Yes, they did. BY MR. PANATIER: i Q. Johns M anville did as w ell, true? 1 MR. KADISH: Sam e objection. ? T H E W ITNESS: Yes, they did. BY MR. PANATIER: Q . O kay. In fact, sir, yo u 've seen in Fo seco 's in terro g a to ry a n sw e rs in ca ses w h ere they have said they actually did receive inform ation from Johns M anville and a letter from Johns M anville that they w ere placing w arnings on their bags? A. Correct. Page 135 Page 137 ( 1 indication. 1 Q. Okay. I want to show you that 2 Q. That's fine. Read as m uch as you 2 letter. T h at is Exhibit 12. 3 need to. 3 (M oney D eposition Exhibit No. 12 4 A. I don't recognize any of the 4 was marked for identification.) 5 initials at the top, which w as the copy 5 BY MR. PANATIER: 6 distribution. So I'm, I'm -- my initial 6 Q. Sir, y o u 've seen th at letter before? 7 assum ption is that it's an FIL docum ent. 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Okay. That would be the 8 Q. Okay. This is a letter from Johns 9 International? 9 Manville. Now, they are a very large asbestos 10 A. Correct. Correct. 10 supplier, correct? 11 Q. Okay. Very -- just very briefly on 11 A. Yes. 12 this docum ent. They say that the general 12 Q. W hat types o f asbestos as of '68 13 object o f the w ork plan for the future is to 13 w e re they supplying to Foseco? 14 develop an insulator w hich w ill possess as m any 14 A. None. 15 as possible of the follow ing properties. And 15 Q. They w eren't supplying any at that 16 the second one is asbestos-free, right? 16 tim e? 17 A. That's correct. 17 A. No. 18 Q. Okay. This is som etim e in 1967, 18 Q. All right. W hen did they start 19 best you can tell, right? 19 supplying asbestos to Foseco? 20 A. Yes. 20 A. W hen we started trying the product 21 Q. Now, FIL International has already 21 in '63. 22 said there is a substitute for asbestos, 22 Q. Okay. They were supplying 23 correct? 23 crocidolite at that time? 24 A. They have said there's -- there is 24 A. Correct. 25 one, yes. 25 Q. And then they -- did Foseco purchase HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM 35 (Pages 134 to 137) ANTHONY MONEY Page 138 Page 140 1 chrysotile from Johns Manville? 1 A. No. 2 A. No. 2 Q. T h e seco n d question is, w h en a hot 3 Q. Okay. W hat types of asbestos was 4 Johns Manville supplying to am osite [sic] after 3 top is applied through clips or a pneum atic 4 nail gun to th e inside of a m old, is all the 5 1968? 5 asbestos encapsulated so it doesn't com e up or 6 MR. INABINET: Objection. To 6 create dust? 7 am osite? 7 A. It's, it's bonded. So I don't see 8 THE W ITNESS: W e did not - 8 - - 1,1 -- again, I'm not technically 9 MR. INABINET: Hold on, Chris. Your 9 qualified, but nailing a board in there w ould 10 question did not m ake sense. You asked 10 - it's still a bonded fiber. 11 w hat Johns M anville w as supplying -- 11 Q. I g u ess m y question is, h ave you 12 MR. PANATIER: Oh, yeah, that makes 12 seen any research at all w here som eone said, 13 no answer. Supplying to am osite. I don't 13 gee, if w e shoot this board w ith a pneum atic 14 know even know what that means. Okay. 14 nail gun, is it going to create any asbestos 15 Yeah, I'll rephrase it because th at w as 15 dust in th e air? Y ou're not aw are o f any? 16 truly one of those terrible -- and please 16 A. I'm not aware, no. 17 feel free to point those out w henever they 17 Q. Sir, is the product still 18 happen. 18 encapsulated after the steel is poured and it's 19 BY MR. PAN ATIER: 19 disintegrated? 20 Q Sir, after 1968, did Johns M anville 21 ever supply any asbestos to Foseco? 20 A. It's no longer asbestos. It's been 21 burned up. 22 A. They did not supply any asbestos to 22 Q. W ell, sir, you know that's not true 23 Foseco after late '6 4 1 th ink it was. 23 because Foseco's own laboratory found 700 24 Q. All right. However, they still sent 24 m illion fibers per pound of ash after that 25 Foseco this letter, true? 25 process, correct? Page 139 Page 141 1 A. Yes, yes. 1 A. That's w hat it says. I'm ju st -- 2 Q All right. Foseco knew, based on 3 this letter, that Johns Manville w as providing 2 Q. That's w hat it says, right? 3 A. Yes. 4 a caution label on its bags o f raw chrysotile 4 Q. Are you aware of anything to the 5 asbestos, true? 5 contrary other than w hat Mr. Jago told you he 6 A. T h a t's correct. 6 did? 7 Q And the caution said, "This bag 8 contains chrysotile asbestos fiber. Persons 7 A. No. 8 Q. Right. And by the way, the tests 9 exposed to this material should be" -- "should 9 that w e looked at that showed 700 m illion 10 use adequate protective devices as inhalation 10 asbestos fibers per pound o f ash of Profax, was 11 o f th is m aterial o ver long periods m ay be 11 th a t a fte r Mr. Ja g o said he did his test? 12 harm ful." Correct? 12 MR. INABINET: Objection. 13 A. That's correct? 13 MR. KADISH: Objection to form. 14 Q. At this tim e when this letter was 14 TH E W ITNESS: I'm not sure. 15 received by Foseco, did Foseco d eterm ine th at 15 BY MR. PANATIER: 16 it should place a label on its finished 16 Q. W ell, Mr. Jago said he did his test 17 products? 17 in aro u nd '65, right? 18 A. No, because they weren't selling 18 A. Right. 19 asbestos. They w ere selling encapsulated 19 Q. And the docum ent w e were looking 20 asbestos fibers in a bonded finished product. 20 at -- 21 Q Okay. I'm going to object to 22 nonresponsive. 21 A. W as August of '65. 22 Q. - w as August of '65. 23 T h e first question is, at this tim e 23 So later in '65, true? 24 did Foseco place a caution label pertaining to 24 A. It, it w as in, in '65. 25 asbestos on its products? 25 Q. Okay. 36 (Pages 138 to 141) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 142 Page 144 1 A. I'm not sure when Jago did his test 1 argum entative. 2 in '65. 2 T H E W IT N E SS: I, I ca n 't m ake a 3 Q. Do you know w hether or not Mr. Jago, 3 com m ent on that. 4 if he had done it before th at test, ever 4 BY MR. PANATIER: 5 corresponded to those individuals and said, 5 Q. Is asbestos dust encapsulated? I'll 6 whoa, whoa, whoa, I did a test; it doesn't show 6 ask you that question. 7 anything? 7 A. I'm not technically qualified. All 8 A. I don't know o f any docum ent that 8 I'll telling you is w hat Foseco's understanding 9 says that, no. 9 w as at the tim e. And based on Jago's test and 10 Q. Okay. Are you aw are that any entity 10 Ja g o doing it, he sa ys th a t th e re w a s no 11 o f Foseco in th e g ro u p w ro te b a ck to th a t 11 asbestos left after use o f the finished product 12 person and said that sounds crazy to us; w e've 12 in th e steel mill. 13 d o n e tests th a t d o e sn 't sh o w a n y asb e sto s? 13 Q. W ell, it w as Mr. W ashburn w ho did -- 14 A. I've seen no docum ent that says 14 w ho reported w hat the laboratory did, right? 15 that, no. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. The only docum ent that w e have about 16 Q. It certainly w asn't his 17 any tests that Foseco did shows 700-plus 17 understanding th at th ere w as no asbestos left, 18 m illion fibers per pound o f Profax ash, 18 w as it? 19 correct? 19 MR. KADISH: Objection; asked and 20 MR. KADISH: Objection. 20 answered. 21 MR. INABINET: Objection. 21 THE W ITNESS: I can't make any more 22 T H E W ITNESS: T h at's w h at it says, 22 com m ent. I'm not technically qualified to 23 yes. 23 d iscu ss it. 24 BY MR. PANATIER: 24 BY MR. PANATIER: 25 Q. Right. And so th a t w ould m ean it's 25 Q. Sir, you're technically qualified to Page 143 Page 145 1 not encapsulated, correct? 1 read his m em o and you've done that, right? 2 MR. KADISH: Objection; form . 2 A. I have, yes. 3 T H E W ITN ESS: No, it's - I'm 3 Q. And he w as technically qualified to 4 telling you my understanding o f w hat 4 rep o rt it; w as he not? 5 Foseco's interpretation was. The 5 A. Yes. 6 interpretation based on that, Jago's, was 6 Q. Okay. And he reported the findings 7 that there was no asbestos fibers rem aining 7 of the laboratory w hich show s the num ber we've 8 after use. 9 BY MR. PANATIER: 8 been talking about. 9 A. Yes, he does. 10 Q. But the laboratory at Foseco showed 10 MR. KADISH: Objection; asked and 11 there w ere asbestos fib ers rem aining a fte r use, 11 answered. 12 correct? 12 BY MR. PANATIER: 13 MR. KADISH: Objection; asked and 13 Q. T o your knowledge, no one within the 14 answered. 14 entire com pany, including Mr. Jago, at any time 15 THE WITNESS: That's w hat the report 15 said I think your num bers are wrong, correct? 16 says. 16 A. I don't know w hether anything was 17 BY MR. PANATIER: 17 said. All I'm telling you is I can't find any 18 Q. Right. And so w h at w e have is 19 Foseco's laboratory finding asbestos fibers 20 after use. Can you agree that to the extent 18 docum ent that, that says anything. 19 Q. Aware of no docum ent that says those 20 num bers are incorrect, right? 21 they found asbestos fibers in th e am ount o f 700 21 A. Correct. 22 m illion per pound of ash, that that m eans that 22 Q. It was certainly reported by both 23 after use the boards are no longer full o f 24 encapsulated asbestos? 23 the laboratory and then by Mr. W ashburn that 24 there w as free asbestos fibers in the used hot 25 MR. KADISH: Objection; 25 top m aterial after the metal had been poured, HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM 37 (Pages 142 to 145) ANTHONY MONEY Page 146 Page 148 1 correct? 1 A. Yes. 2 MR. KADISH: Objection; asked and 2 Q. W ho's that? 3 answered. 3 A. He w as the, as it says, product 4 TH E W ITNESS: That - that's w hat he 4 m anager fo r th e H ead system steel m ill in FIL. 5 says, yes. 5 Q. Okay. Is that som eone w ho's fairly 6 BY MR. PANATIER: 6 high up the chain that has the authority to 7 Q. I w ant to ask you, if free asbestos 7 com m unicate with all the group m em bers? 8 fibers are released from a product, would you 8 A. W ell, he's the product m anager. He 9 agree th at those are not encapsulated? 9 would - he w ould circulate his report to a, a 10 A. Can you repeat your question again? 10 -- he'd have a distribution list. 11 Q. Sure, sure. W ould you agree that if 11 Q. Okay. The U.S. com pany w as on that 12 free asbestos fibers are released from a 12 list? 13 product, then th a t product is by definition not 13 A. Yes. 14 encapsulated? 14 Q. Obviously. Okay. 15 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 15 Go back to the first page. It says 16 THE WITNESS: Correct. 16 -- th e title o f this bulletin in Decem ber 1969, 17 BY MR. PANATIER: 17 "Asbestos and Health: A Problem for Europe?" 18 Q. Okay. Johns Manville goes on to say 18 This was the title o f a one-day conference held 19 in th e follow ing highlight, "Physical 19 In London on N o ve m b er 13th organized by th e 20 protection fo r em ployees is provided through 20 Asbestos Inform ation Com m ittee for an invited 21 the use of safety, hats, shoes, glasses, and 21 audience. 22 other devices when circum stances warrant. 22 Sir, do you -- you're fam iliar with 23 Health protection is ju st as im portant and 23 the Asbestos Inform ation Com m ittee, correct? 24 should include appropriate practices and 24 A. I w asn't, no. 25 equipm ent such as collectors, ventilators, 25 Q. Not at that tim e? Page 147 Page 149 1 masks, et cetera, to prevent inhalation of 1 A. No. 2 fumes and particulate matter." 2 Q. All right. You are now, right? 3 Does Foseco agree with that 3 A. I know about it now, yes. 4 statement? 4 Q. You have reviewed this document 5 A. Yes. 5 before, true? 6 Q. Okay. You can set that aside, sir. 6 A. Yes. 7 MR. PANATIER: Are w e on 13 now? 7 Q. Okay. Do you agree that the 8 MR. INABINET: Yep. 8 Asbestos Inform ation Com m ittee is a 9 MR. PANATIER: All right. 9 counter-publicity unit to counter publicity 10 (M oney Deposition Exhibit No. 13 10 about asbestos dangers? 11 was marked for identification.) 11 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 12 BY MR. PANATIER: 12 THE W ITNESS: Well, I, I - I'm 13 Q. Sir, that's a steelw orks bulletin 13 reading his memo. He says that it was part 14 dated D ecem ber 1969. T hat is a Foseco 14 of our investigation about the use of 15 publication, correct? 15 asbestos, and this w as him attending one of 16 A. It is a Foseco International 16 these meetings. 17 publication. 17 And the conclusion was that he 18 Q. Right. T h is is, again, som ething 18 gained nothing except that - I think one 19 th at Foseco, Inc., in the U.S. w ould have 19 o f his w ords w as it w as a white, whitewash 20 received, true? 20 job, that they were trying to say, hey, 21 A. Yes. 21 there isn't a problem or a potential 22 Q. Okay. W hat it says is -- well, 22 problem when he, he w as saying, yeah, there 23 actually, let's go to the -- to the third page 23 probably is. 24 marked 712 at the bottom. That's signed by 24 BY MR. PANATIER: 25 J.M. MacNair? 25 Q. So here's the question, though. He 38 (Pages 146 to 149) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 150 Page 152 1 is attending a m eeting o f th e Asbestos 1 chairm an said, right? 2 Inform ation Com m ittee and he actually describes 2 A. Correct. 3 it's a counter-publicity unit, right? 3 Q. Okay. Then he goes on to his 4 A. Yes. 4 evaluation o f it or his report of it on page 2. 5 Q. Okay. It goes on to say it's for an 5 And there's a highlight there, w here it says 6 invited audience. So presum ably he w as 6 the council, and he's talking about the 7 invited, right? 7 asbestos - "Asbestosis Research Council has 8 A. If that's w hat he says. I didn't 8 set up various environm ental study groups to 9 read that, but -- 9 look into special industry sectors, vis," that 10 Q. It's the end o f the first sentence. 10 m eans vis-a-vis, "building and shipbuilding, 11 Do you se e th at? 11 electrical and engineering, dock handling and 12 A. No. 12 textile w eaving." 13 Q. The, the end o f the very first 13 First, did I read that right? 14 sentence, he says, "...for an invited 14 A. Yes. 15 audience." 15 Q. T hen in parentheses he says, "N B" - 16 A. Show me. 16 do you know w hat that m eans? 17 Q. Okay. Sure. I'll, I'll put an 17 A. Yes. 18 arro w o n it. 18 Q. W hat does that mean? 19 A. Oh, end o f the first sentence. I 19 A. It m eans nota bene. It m eans -- 20 w as looking at paragraph. I apologize. 20 it's Latin for take note. 21 Q. It's okay. It's all right. You 21 Q. Oh, okay. You learn som ething every 22 speak the Q ueen's English. 22 day. 23 A. Yes. 23 So he says in parentheses, "I asked 24 Q. Okay. "The delegates w ere chosen 24 the chairm an of the Environm ental Control 25 from com panies selling asbestos o r buying 25 Com m ittee privately if any study was planned Page 151 Page 153 1 asbestos for use in products fo r subsequent 1 for the steelworks industry. He said no and 2 resale and the author attended on behalf of the 2 was apparently quite unaware that asbestos 3 Foseco group. There w ere no representatives 3 occurred in steelw orks at all." 4 from the press or from the ultim ate user 4 Now, do you know w hether or not this 5 industries." 5 gentlem an who attended on behalf of Foseco 6 So this w as clearly ju st the 6 said, well, it does. There's a lot of asbestos 7 manufacturers, correct, sir? 7 used in the steelw orks industry? Do you know? 8 A. Correct. 8 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 9 Q. All right. "Approxim ately 97 9 THE W ITNESS: W ell, I don't know 10 percent o f the delegates were from com panies 10 w hether he did or not. J t doesn't say. 11 co ncerned w ith th e d ire ct m arketing o f asb esto s 11 BY MR. PANATIER: 12 fiber w ith a breakdow n by m ajor countries as 12 Q. He did not report that he did? 13 follow s." And he b reaks it dow n. 13 A. No. 14 The next paragraph says, "The 14 Q. Correct? 15 objective of the conference was stated by the 15 He did not report that he set them 16 chairm an in his opening rem arks, to discuss the 16 straight on that, right? 17 facts relating asb esto s and health, especially 17 A. No. 18 in the light o f recent uninform ed and 18 MR. INABINET: Objection. 19 oversensationalized com m ents in th e press and 19 BY MR. PANATIER: 20 on television, this problem and its effect on 20 Q. All right. "2, Publicity and Public 21 the marketing of asbestos fibers has occurred 21 Relations." "Starting in 1966 there have been 22 first in th e U.K., b ut th ere is no d o u b t th a t 22 increasingly sensational disclosures by the 23 sim ilar pressu re w ill soon be excerpted in 23 British press on the health hazards of 24 other countries." 24 asbestos, culm inating in a highly provocative 25 And he's ju st quoting w hat the 25 television program by the BBC to counter this HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLmGATION.COM 39 (Pages 150 to 153) ANTHONY MONEY Page 154 Page 156 1 on behalf o f the U.K. asbestos industry. The 1 w ill depend m ost likely on the activities of 2 A sbestos Inform ation C om m ittee w as form ed in 2 the press and television com panies. But if the 3 1966 w ho em ployed a professional public 3 U.K. is anything to go by, this can have an 4 relations firm to assure the public and publish 4 effect far beyond that justified on m edical 5 factual inform ation on th e problem ." 5 evidence alone." 6 Did I read that right? 6 W ell, w hat's he -- w hat m edical 7 A. Yes, you did. 7 evidence is he talking about there? 8 Q. "Conclusions." W e'll skip right to 8 A. I don't know. 9 th e end. "It m ay" -- w ell, w h a t he sa ys is 9 Q. All right. All right. And you can 10 "There are health risks associated w ith the 10 see on the next page he's got a note. It says 11 handling and use o f asb e sto s, p a rticula rly blue 11 A ? 12 asbestos, nearly all o f w hich can be elim inated 12 A. Yes. 13 o r strictly reduced by sensible and responsible 13 Q. "Asbestos Inform ation Com m ittee 14 precautions on the part o f m anagem ent and 14 fo rm e d in 1966 by a syndicate o f th e three 15 individual w orkers. T h e aw areness o f this and 15 m ajor U.K. asbestos suppliers, e.g., Cape 16 the m ost" -- 16 Asbestos," w ho Foseco used to get fiber from, 17 A. I'm sorry. I'm trying to -- I'm 17 right? 18 lost. 18 A. This is the U.K. I don't - I think 19 Q. It's n o t hig hlig h ted . It's a t th e 19 - 1 don't know w here w e got - w e bought from 20 start of conclusions. 20 Cape Asbestos. I assum e it's the sam e com pany. 21 A. Okay. 21 Q. Foseco, Inc., got asbestos from 22 MR. INABINET: Last paragraph. 22 Cape? 23 THE W ITNESS: Let m e read again then 23 A. From Cape Asbestos, correct. 24 with you. Go ahead. 24 Q. T urner Newall and the Central 25 25 Asbestos Com pany, Lim ited, they em ploy Page 155 Page 157 1 BY MR. PANATTER: 1 Messrs. Hill & Knowlton, Limited, as public 2 Q. Sure. "The awareness of this and 2 relations advisors. 3 the im portance attached to it in other 3 A nd he described this, as w e saw in 4 countries will depend m ost likely on the 4 the first page - or I'm sorry. I'll reference 5 activities o f the press and television 5 it to you directly, if I can find it -- as a 6 com panies. But if the U.K. is anything to go 7 by, this can have an effect far beyond that 6 counter-publicity unit, right? 7 A. Yes, that's correct. That's w hat he 8 justified on medical evidence alone. It m ay or 9 m ay not erupt in Europe o r elsew here, and the 8 did say. 9 Q. Okay. W hat fees or donations or 10 chairm an clo sed by advising asbestos suppliers 10 m em bership costs did Foseco p u t into the 11 in Europe to form a co u nte r-p ub licity u n it such 11 A sbestos Inform ation Com m ittee? 12 as the A sb esto s Inform ation C om m ittee in the 12 A. None that I'm aware of. 13 U.K." 14 Now, that's the com m ittee m eeting he 13 Q. W hat about the Foseco group as a 14 whole? 15 w as attending, correct? 15 A. No. 16 A. That's correct. 16 Q. You don't know? 17 Q. And he puts that under his 17 A. No. 18 conclusions. He doesn't actually say he 18 Q. Okay. He was an invited m em ber of 19 disapproves o f w hat they w ere doing; does he? 19 that meeting. Do you know if he had to pay to 20 A. He, he doesn't m ake any com m ent at 20 go? 21 all. He's just reporting w hat they said. 21 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 22 Q. Okay. He does say, though, that the 22 TH E W ITNESS: I have no idea. 23 attention - it was the second-to-last 23 BY MR. PANATTER: 24 sentence. "The awareness of this and the 24 Q. All right. You can set that aside, 25 im portance attached to it in other countries 25 sir. 40 (Pages 154 to 157) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 158 Page 160 1 This next one w ill be Exhibit 14. 1 Proflex w ere the asbestos-containing and 2 (M oney Deposition Exhibit No. 14 2 Kalflex w as nonasbestos-containing, true? 3 w as m arked for identification.) 3 A. Correct. 4 BY MR. PANATIER: 4 Q. It says, "Foseco International term s 5 Q. Sir, have you seen this docum ent 5 o f reference w ere to develop a flexible-type 6 before? 6 Profax free from asbestos because of asbestosis 7 A. Yes. 7 and the industrial legal questions arising from 8 Q. All right. T h is is a d ocu m en t from 8 its use in both England and Europe. They 9 Foseco, Inc., correct? O r I'm sorry. 9 subsequently developed from Proflex as w e know 10 A. I'm not sure. 10 it to Kalflex, a duplex system free from 11 Q. T h is is - no, th is is Foseco 11 asbestos." 12 International. It's on th e last -- very last 12 So they developed - instead of 13 page. You can see it says, "R eport on visit to 13 using Proflex, they developed basically a 14 Europe, Foseco International, Lim ited," right? 14 substitute m aterial that did not contain 15 A. Yeah. 15 asbestos, true? 16 Q. And it's by D.P. Helliwell. 16 A. They did. 17 A. Yeah. 17 Q. W h e n did Kalflex becom e ava ila b le in 18 Q. Do you know w ho that is? 18 the U.S.? 19 A. Yes. 19 A. They, they took the recipe and, and 20 Q. W ho is that? 20 tried to m ake it work. And, again, it w as 21 A. Derrick Helliwell. 21 unsuccessful. 22 Q. W hat w as, w hat w as his title? 22 Q. W hy it w as it unsuccessful? 23 A. I don't know. He w as an FIL person 23 A. I don't know. 24 again. 24 Q. Okay. So we've seen successful 25 Q. Is this som ething that w ould have 25 asbestos-free recipes in Australia, right? Page 159 Page 161 1 gone to the U.S.? 1 A. A t that point in time. 2 A. Yes. 2 Q. Right. Actually, that was '67. 3 Q. Okay. If we go to the first part, 3 A. Yeah, I know. I'm saying - but it 4 it says, "Report on visit to Europe August 27th 4 was then - I don't know whether the - when 5 through 31st, 1970, Foseco International, 5 the report w as written they w ere saying they've 6 Lim ited." And it says, Profax, Profiex, and 6 never used it since, but I don't know whether 7 Kalflex. 7 they used asbestos-containing Profax after '67. 8 Now, those are all 8 Q. You mean asbestos-containing 9 asbestos-containing hot top m aterials, correct? 9 Proflex. 10 A. No. 10 A. Profax. 11 Q. Okay. W hich one's not? 11 Q. Are we getting mixed up? 12 A. Kalflex. 12 A. Yeah. 13 Q. Okay. W as Kalflex ever an asbestos- 14 containing m aterial? 13 Q. H ere's m y question. My question is, 14 w e know as of 1967 the Australian m em ber of the 15 A. It w as never an asbestos-containing 15 group had not needed asbestos for at least a 16 material. 16 few years. They w ere using the w heat flour 17 Q. All right. It w as alw ays -- what 17 bonded Profax, right? 18 was that? 18 A. That's correct. 19 A. It w as a duplex where they took - 19 Q. Okay. Here w e know that at least 20 I'm not sure of the ingredients. But they took 20 w ith regard to Europe they are using an 21 a lining o f one product and the outer faces 21 asbestos-free version o f Proflex, correct? 22 with another. It w as a dolom ite refractory 22 A. T h e y w ere trying it, yes. 23 type. 23 Q. Okay. All right. And if you look 24 Q. And I'm sorry. It actually says 25 here it does not have asbestos. So Profax and 24 at the next highlight, it says, "Although the 25 raw m aterial costs of Kalflex is higher than HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLmGATION.COM 41 (Pages 158 to 161) ANTHONY MONEY Page 162 Page 164 1 current Profax 20, it is found in practice that 1 A. Yes, you did. 2 a quicker dew atering cycle can be achieved even 2 Q. Did Foseco ever go out and buy 3 w ith tw o sluices as production rate is 3 Ferro's board? 4 increased and dry scrap reduced to a m inim um . 4 A. I don't know w hether they did or 5 It is felt th at th e increased raw m aterial cost 5 not. 6 balances out w ith current production." 6 Q. Did -- certainly, if you're trying 7 So to paraphrase, they're saying the 7 to develop an asbestos-free board as of this 8 raw m aterial in th e asb esto s-free Kalflex m ay 8 tim e -- I mean, I never worked for Foseco, but 9 be higher; but due to how it's handled, the 9 I m ight say let's go buy their board and see 10 overall use of the m aterial m ay decrease costs. 10 w h a t's in it. Do you th ink th a t w o u ld be 11 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 11 reasonable? 12 T H E W ITN E SS: It's, it's a n o th e r one 12 A. Yes. 13 w here w e're looking at trying to develop 13 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 14 asbestos-free product. A nd this is another 14 BY MR. PANATIER: 15 w ay of, o f approaching it. A nd they're 15 Q. Do you know if they ever did it? 16 making com m ents on technical aspects as 16 A . I d o n 't know w h e th e r th e y did in 17 well as cost aspects. 17 this case, no. 18 BY MR. PANATIER: 18 MR. INABINET: This is 1970? 19 Q. All right. If your turn to the page 19 MR. PANATIER: Yeah, '70. j 20 marked 720 at the bottom. 20 BY MR. PANATIER: 21 A. Yep. 21 Q. Do you know w hat the ingredients 22 Q. It's, again, talking about Profax, 22 w ere in the Ferro board th at w as being supplied 23 Proflex, and Kalflex. And it says, "The need 23 at that tim e? 1 24 for an asbestos-free recipe capable of 24 A. No. j 25 w ithstanding rim stabilized grades is o f 25 Q. Okay. Ferro w as a U.S. com petitor Page 163 Page 165 ; 1 param ount im portance to the continuation of 1 of Foseco, true? 2 business o f Foseco, Lim ited." 2 A. Correct. 3 A. Right. Yes. 3 Q. Do you have knowledge of when Ferro 4 Q. Now, it says the need for 4 started supplying asbestos-free hot tops in the 5 asbestos-free is o f param ount im portance to the 5 U.S.? 6 continuation o f business. It doesn't say of 6 A. I'm not sure of the date, no. 7 param ount im portance to health o f the users, 7 Q. W as it earlier than or later than 8 does it? 8 Foseco? 9 A. It does not. 9 A. My understanding is that on their 10 Q. This is the fourth or fifth 10 boards it w as earlier, b u t they w ere still 11 reference w e 've seen to the ability to sell it, 11 supplying asbestos-containing hot top m aterial 12 to cost, e t cetera; isn't it? 12 after w e w ent asbestos-free. 13 A. Yeah, but, again, these are 13 Q. Okay. So Ferro was earlier to 14 technical reports. 14 provide a nonasbestos m aterial in certain 15 Q. I understand. 15 applications? 16 A. They're not com m ercial reports. 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. Right. These are technical reports 17 Q. But they w ere later in term s o f they 18 talking ab o u t the cost, right? 18 continued to sell asbestos-containing hot top 19 A. Correct. 19 m aterial at a later date than Foseco, right? 20 Q. "To date, the results are promising. 20 A. Correct. 21 but they have a good com petitor in the shape of 21 Q. Okay. Well, let me ask you this. 22 London Scandinavian, Ferro Engineering, who are 22 When they first started supplying -- when Ferro 23 currently supplying a very hard asbestos-free 23 first started supplying a nonasbestos hot top 24 board." 24 in the U.S., did Foseco go and try to determ ine 25 Did I read that right? 25 w hat they were using so they could sell a 42 (Pages 162 to 165) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 166 Page 168 1 sim ilar product? 1 but som eone corrected me. 2 A. Yes. W e, w e analyzed -- w e did not 2 W h at they are reporting here is that 3 buy the boards, but we got them from the steel 3 w hen you com pare 1971 to 1969, they're using 4 mill and analyzed them . 4 considerably m ore am osite asbestos, correct? 5 Q. You did analyze them . And w hat did 5 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 6 you learn? 6 TH E W ITNESS: Yes, they are. 7 A. It, it -- there is a m em o that show s 7 BY MR. PANAT1ER: 8 som e o f the com position. But also on, on one 8 Q. The m inim um w ent from 75,000 pounds 9 o f th em , w e - it had a sb e sto s in it. 9 per month to 95,000 pounds per month, true? 10 Q. It was a nonasbestos one that had 10 A. Yes. 11 asbestos in it? 11 Q. And the maxim um am ount w ent from 12 A. Yes. 12 120 m illion pounds per month to 150 million 13 Q. Okay. And you know that because 13 pounds per month, right? 14 why? 14 A. Thousands. 15 A. T hey did the analysis o f the board. 15 Q. I'm sorry. 150,000 pounds per 16 Q. Foseco did the analysis? 16 month, correct? 17 A. Yes. 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. Okay. And that's one of the things 18 Q. W hat does "this is exclusive of the 19 w e talked about earlier. T here w ere certainly 19 50,000 pound patio supply" mean? 20 w ays during this period o f tim e, if you w anted 20 A. T here w as a, a reserve quantity that 21 to analyze a com petitor's board, you could find 21 th ey sta rt on th e patio as a reserve in case 22 o u t w h at w a s in it? 22 th e y w e re running short o f asbestos to use in 23 A. Yes. 23 the product. 24 Q. You could do it to them ; they could 24 Q. So this w as ju st in case they 25 do it to you? 25 co uldn't g et th e asbestos in, they had to use Page 167 Page 169 1 A. Yes. 1 it as a surplus kind of? 2 Q. Okay. That's everything in that 2 A. Correct. 3 m em o. You can set that aside. 3 Q. Okay. So during this time, we've 4 T h is next one is Exhibit 15. 4 already seen several memos where Foseco has - 5 (M oney Deposition Exhibit No. 15 5 either Foseco International or Foseco, Inc., 6 w as m arked for identification.) 6 has said w e need to find asbestos substitutes, 7 BY MR. PANAT1ER: 7 right? 8 Q. Sir, you've seen this before? 8 A. Yes. 9 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. But during this whole time, 10 Q. T his is a Foseco, Inc., m em o. This 10 at least w hen it com es to Foseco, Inc., in the 11 is th e U.S. com pany, right? 11 U.S., the asbestos consum ption Is increasing, 12 A. Correct. 12 right? 13 Q. It's dated February 24th, 1971, and 13 A. Yes, it is. Yes. 14 the subject is "RM 265A asbestos." That's 14 Q. All right. You can set that aside, 15 am osite, right? 15 sir. 16 A. Correct. 16 (M oney Deposition Exhibit No. 16 17 Q. O kay. W h a t it says is, "O ur 17 w as marked for identification.) 18 asbestos consum ption this year is averaging 18 BY MR. PANAT1ER: 19 188,000 pounds per month versus the 1969 19 Q. Next we have Exhibit 16. Sir, 20 average of 123,000 pounds per m onth." Right? 20 you've seen that document before? 21 A. Correct. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. The M next to it m eans thousands, 22 Q. This is two days after the one we 23 right? 23 looked at. The one we looked at was February 24 A. Correct. 24 24th. 25 Q. I used to think that w as m illions, 25 A. All right. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGAT10N.COM 43 (Pages 166 to 169) ANTHONY MONEY Page 170 Page 172 1 Q. This is now February 26th, 1971. 1 Q. And generally speaking, Foseco's 2 This is to Mr. Jago from Mr. Biiton, both 2 business bared a direct relationship to how 3 individuals w ho w e've spoken about, true? 3 m uch steel w as being m ade in th e U.S., right? 4 A. Yes. 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. And w hat he says is, "Please see the 5 Q. Next will be Exhibit 17. 6 attached letter from Gerry Morgan at North 6 (Money Deposition Exhibit No. 17 7 Am erican Asbestos. Also, the 2/24/71 m em o from 7 w as m arked for Identification.) 8 Bill Brenner, from w hich it appears that we 8 MR. INABINET: Chris? 9 shall be using in the Cleveland plant alone 9 MR. PANAT1ER: Yes. 10 around 1,200 tons this year." 10 MR. INABINET: Can I get you to make 11 And they're talking about RM265A, 11 that a little m ore clearer? 12 w hich is am osite asbestos, right? 12 MR. PANAT1ER: A nicer 6. 13 A. That's correct. 13 MR. INABINET: A nicer 6. 14 O. Okay. Just, ju st go ahead and skip 14 MR. PANATTER: Sure. 15 down to the next highlight. It says, "In view 15 BY MR. PANATIER: 16 of Bill Brenner's forecast of approxim ately 16 Q. This is Exhibit 17. Sir, this as 17 1,200 tons fo r the Cleveland plant alone," it 17 June 7th, 1971, com m unication from North 18 says, "versus y o u r pro jection o f 800 tons for 18 Am erican Asbestos Corporation to Foseco, Inc., 19 Cleveland and Chicago com bined, it w ill no 19 in Cleveland, right? 20 doubt be necessary for us to use every grade we 20 A. Correct. 21 can, and for that reason I am sure that you 21 Q. And the context is -- North Am erican 22 will w ant to see w hether official approval can 22 Asbestos Corporation was telling Foseco we 23 now be given to the S44 grade, although I 23 can't ship tw o tons o f grade S44 am osite that 24 understand from Jerry M organ this will not be 24 you asked for, right? 25 available until around Septem ber." 25 A. Correct. Page 171 Page 173 1 W h a t he's saying there is they've 1 Q. Skip to the end. He says, "We 2 increased beyond their projection o f 800 tons 2 understand production costs have increased 3 for the Cleveland plant and Chicago plant 3 som ew hat and the current indication is that the 4 com bined. They're at 1,200 tons for Cleveland 4 price of this material w ill be 210 per m etric 5 alone, right? 5 ton." 6 A. Yes. 6 That usually m eans free on board, 7 Q. And they're going to have to start 7 right? 8 using other grades of am osite just to fulfill 9 their needs, right? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. FOB? 10 A. That's exactly w hat he says. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And he says it m ay not even be 11 Q. "Vessel, Port of Philadelphia." So 12 available. 12 it com es into Philadelphia, right? 13 A. Correct. 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Right. Okay. 14 Q. And they are paying $210 per ton for 15 Can you, can you say based on your 15 this am osite? 16 historical know ledge of Foseco during this 17 tim e, w as this a period w h ere they w ere using 18 m ore am osite asbestos than they ever had or was 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. How much did the regular grade they 18 used cost? 19 this sim ply an oth er peak in 1971? 19 A. I have no idea. 20 A. It was a com bination of two. We, we 21 w ere using m ore am osite and we w ere supplying 22 the custom ers, but at that tim e the steel 20 Q. All right. So for every ton of 21 asbestos, it costs - at least fo r this S44, it 22 costs $210? 23 production in the U.S.A. w as at a high level. 24 So there w as an increased product -- production 25 at the steel mills. 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. Okay. You can set it aside, sir. 25 This will be the last docum ent and then we'll 44 (Pages 170 to 173) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITTGATION.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 174 Page 176 1 take a quick break for a bite or whatever. 1 A. That's correct. 2 (M oney Deposition Exhibit No. 18 2 Q. That's when som eone says, oh, you're 3 was m arked for identification.) 3 ju s t w h itew a sh in g it. T h a t's w h a t th a t m eans? 4 BY MR. PANAnER: 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. This wiil be Exhibit 18. Sir, do 5 Q. Okay. Go ahead and turn to the next 6 you se e th a t th is is a m em o fro m J.M . M a cN a ir 6 page. "You ask if there is any group in the 7 to Dr. Phoenix at Foseco, Inc.? 7 U.K. that could perform the sort of research 8 A. Yes. Yes. 8 that w ould help us to defend our continuing use 9 Q. It's dated th e 2nd day o f July, 9 o f asbestos in hot tops, and here I m ust 10 1971, right? 10 certainly agree with you that there is no known 11 A. Right. 11 m aterial at the m om ent which gives the sam e 12 Q. Okay. It's got a one-w ord subject, 12 cost-effectiveness in hot tops as asbestos." 13 and it is "Asbestos"? 13 Did I read that right? 14 A. Correct. 14 A. Yes, you did. 15 Q. Okay. So if you go to the 15 Q. O kay. T h is is yet another reference 16 highlight, he says, "Secondly, the asbestos 16 w e're seeing to the cost of a substitute for 17 industry itself has set up various bodies to 17 asbestos, right? 18 defend its own position and produce" -- "and 18 A. T h at is correct. 19 produce responsible counter-attacks to the 19 Q. Okay. If you look at the next 20 scare mongers. The main supplier of asbestos" 20 highlight: "M y own feeling is th at to sponsor 21 -- and I guess -- I'm sorry. Let m e start 21 a n y ad d itio n al research into this field is 22 over. 22 unlikely to be productive except on the purely 23 "The main suppliers of asbestos have 23 public relations whitewashing aspect that by 24 form ed the Asbestos Inform ation Com m ittee, 24 spending all this am ount o f m oney w e could 25 w hich is m ainly a public relations function 25 prove to our custom ers that w e are responsible Page 175 Page 177 1 em ploying undoubtedly high-pow ered public 1 suppliers." 2 relations consultants. T h is is a w hitew ashing 2 So he's putting that out there as an 3 job." 3 option. Is he, is he advocating it, o r is he 4 T his is w hat you referred to 4 saying we shouldn't do this? 5 earlier, right? 5 A. No. He's, he's saying that is one 6 A. Yes. 6 option, but that's not w hat we did. 7 Q. Another gentlem an from Foseco 7 Q. Right. Did he say w e shouldn't do 8 International attended an Asbestos Inform ation 8 it? 9 Com m ittee meeting before, right? 9 A. No. 10 A. No, it was the sam e one. 10 Q. Okay. "I think that the evidence at 11 Q. It's this, this sam e guy? 11 the m om ent is that degradation o f product 12 A. Yes. 12 certainly above 700 degrees Celsius are not 13 Q. I'm sorry. He is reporting about 13 harm ful, though w e m ust be" - 14 his experience with the A sbestos Inform ation 14 A. W here are you now? 15 Com m ittee. 15 Q. I'm sorry. The next highlight. 16 A. Yes. 16 Yes, sir. I'm sorry. 17 Q. Right. And he's saying that the - 17 "I think the evidence at the m om ent 18 basically they're putting out 18 is that the degradation products certainly 19 counterpropaganda, right? 19 above 700 degrees Celsius are not harmful, 20 A. Correct. 20 though we must be prepared to face the argument 21 Q. Okay. And he calls it a 21 that the tem perature at the back of Profax 22 whitewashing job. That's w hat that means? 22 tiles in m any applications does not rise above 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. All right. You're trying to make 23 400 degrees Celsius and, hence, the breakdown 24 products here will be borderline. The real 25 som ething look better than it is, right? 25 problem is that since people don't know exactly HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLmGAT10N.COM 45 (Pages 174 to 177) ANTHONY MONEY Page 178 1 what param eter of asbestos causes the hazards 1 2 in the first place, it is im possible to check 2 3 w hether these are deduced or rem oved at higher 3 4 tem peratures, except by these long, draw n-out, 4 5 and inconclusive tests on anim als." 5 6 So m y question there is here he's 6 7 saying there m ay be som e degradation of the 7 8 ingredients in Profax by virtue o f th e heat, 8 9 right? 9 10 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. And he's saying w here it's closest, 11 12 closest to the m olten steel - or m olten metal, 12 13 you w ould except higher degradation than w here 13 14 it's further, correct? 14 15 A. He's saying that it would be at the 15 16 700 C and he's raising a question m a rk th a t 16 17 there could be - it needs further looking at 17 18 a t the 400 C w here it's - the board isn't next 18 19 to the ingot mold. 19 20 Q. Right. W here it's further from the 20 21 m olten steel, right? 21 22 A. Correct. 22 23 Q. Now, do you know whether or not this 23 24 m an had seen the m em o w here they actually 24 25 analyzed the dust from the used hot tops? 25 of Tape No. 3 of the videotaped deposition o f Anthony Money. The tim e is approxim ately 1:01 p.m. W e are going off the video record. (Lunch recess.) Page 180 Page 179 Page 181 1 A. Phoenix joined in 1967 and 1 AFTERNOON SESSION 2 W ashburn's report w as August 1965. So he was 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: W e're back on the 3 not there when W ashburn report was published. 3 video record at 1:38 p.m. with Tape 4. 4 But it w as there in the inform ation available. 4 BY MR. PANATIER: 5 Q. Okay. He doesn't reference that 5 Q. All right. Actually, sir, we're 6 report in this m em o, correct? You know that? 6 done with that memo. We can set that aside. 7 A. Right. 7 All right. This next one is No. 19. 8 Q. Right? 8 (Money Deposition Exhibit No. 19 9 A. Correct. 9 was marked for identification.) 10 Q. "The real problem is that since 10 BY MR. PANATIER: 11 people d o n 't kno w exactly w h at param eter o f 11 Q. Sir, is that a letter dated February 12 asbesto s ca uses th e hazards in th e first place, 12 23rd, 1972? 13 it is im possible to check w hether these are 13 A. Correct. 14 reduced o r rem oved at higher tem peratures, 14 Q. That's from Foseco, R.W. Ruddle - 15 except by th ese long, draw n-out, and 15 A. Yes. 16 in co n clu sive tests on anim als." 16 Q. -- vice president o f technology, to 17 And w hat he's saying there is 17 Doug Pritchard, Robert A. Barnes, Inc. 18 b asically w e d o n 't know w hat level o f asbestos 18 Do you know w ho that is? 19 exposure causes disease, right? 19 A. Yes. 20 A. Yes, he is. 20 Q. W ho is that? 21 MR. PANATIER: Okay. We should 21 A. It's one of our custom ers. 22 probably go ahead and go off the video. 22 Q. Okay. So this is Foseco writing to 23 We'll finish this docum ent when we com e 23 a customer? 24 back from our break. 24 A. Yes. 25 TH E VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end 25 Q. Okay. He says, "Dear Mr. Pritchard, 46 (Pages 178 to 181) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 182 Page 184 1 Y o u r letter o f February 16 in regard to the 1 A. Yes. 2 asbestos content of Kalm inex sleeves has been 2 Q. And it is w ritten directly to Ted 3 passed to m e for reply." 3 Jago. 4 W hat are Kalm inex sleeves? 4 A. Yes. 5 A. Kalm inex sleeves are foundry 5 Q. Now, it's dated March 24th, 1972. 6 products. 6 A nd Mr. M ellodey, w ho is he? 7 Q. W hat types of foundry products are 7 A. He w as a technical person at FIL. 8 they? 8 Q. All right. And he's writing another 9 A. T h e y're used in th e tre atm e n t o f 9 technical person at Foseco, Inc., right? 10 m olten m etal, sim ilar on a sm aller scale to the 10 A. Correct. 11 hot to p p in g o f ingots. 11 Q. So Mr. Mellodey w rites to Mr. Jago. 12 Q. All right. "The answ er to your 12 He says, "Dear Ted, Many thanks for your 13 question is that Kalm inex 3402B contains 13 heartw arm ing news, as it w as the sort o f Easter 14 approxim ately 9 percent o f asbestos, and 14 egg I could well do w ithout." 15 Kalm inex 3959 contains approxim ately 8 percent 15 What, w hat was the heartwarm ing 16 o f asbestos. This inform ation is of course 16 new s? 17 confidential, and anyone to w hom it is revealed 17 A. I don't know. 18 m u st first assu re you th a t it w ill be held in 18 Q. All right. W ell, the next 19 strict co nfidence. I tru st th is in form ation is 19 sentence -- and he says, "It is the sort of 20 sufficient for your purpose, but if I can of 20 Easter egg I could well do w ithout." I guess 21 further help, please let m e know." Signed R.W. 21 it w as around Easter? 22 Ruddle at Foseco. 22 A. Yes. 23 So apparently this guy wanted to 23 Q. "As you know, I planned to spend 24 know how m uch asbestos w as in Kalm inex, right? 24 quite a lot o f tim e on asbestos replacement; 25 A. Correct. 25 but tow ards the second half of the year, as we Page 183 Page 185 1 Q. And Foseco told him but told him he 1 agreed, during our last chat, that w as" -- let 2 had to keep it in strict confidence, right? 2 me start over. 3 A. Yes. 3 "As you know, I planned to spend 4 Q. Okay. Again, the asbestos content 4 quite a lot o f time on asbestos replacement; 5 in Kalm inex, if one o f your com petitors wanted 5 but towards the second half of the year, as we 6 to know it, th ey could ju s t g e t ahold o f som e 6 agreed during our last chat, that the 7 and test it, right? 7 regulations wouldn't bite until after 1973. So 8 A. Yes, but they'd have to go through 8 th is puts us in som ething o f a quandary as it 9 that, and w e wanted to m ake sure that we didn't 9 leaves us tw o months o f maximum workload to 10 really -- release ingredients of o u r recipes 10 a ch ie ve an objective w hich as w e both know is 11 w ith o u t taking pro per precautions. 11 exceed in g ly difficult." 12 Q. By the way, did the word "asbestos" 12 So let's pause there. They knew 13 ever appear on any hot top product sold by 13 th a t O SH A w as going to go into effect in Ju ne 14 Foseco up until 1972? 14 o f 1972, right? 15 A. No. 15 MR. KADISH: Objection. 16 Q. Okay. Sir, you can set that aside. 16 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure when the 17 Next will be Exhibit 20. 17 effective date o f OSHA, but around that 18 (M oney Deposition Exhibit No. 20 18 tim e period, yes. 19 w as marked for identification.) 19 BY MR. PANATIER: 20 BY MR. PANATIER: 21 Q. Sir, this is a Foseco International 20 Q. All right. They're talking about 21 the advent of OSHA? 22 memo. You've seen that, right? 22 A. I don't know. 23 A. Yes. 23 MR. KADISH: Objection. 24 Q. T h is is to Foseco, Inc., in 24 BY MR. PANATIER: 25 Cleveland, right? 25 Q. You don't know? HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM 47 (Pages 182 to 185) ANTHONY MONEY Page 186 Page 188 1 A. I don't -- I'm assum ing that, but I 1 A. He w as one of the people involved. 2 don't know for sure. 2 I don't think he w as the only one, no. 3 Q. Okay. These two guys had talked, 3 Q. Okay. But he's one o f the people 4. Mr. Jago and Mr. M ellodey, and apparently they 4 involved, and he is saying "we hope to be able 5 had determ ined that regulations w ouldn't bite 5 to start w ork on the replacem ent program ," 6 until after 1973, right? 6 right? 7 A. That's w hat it says. 7 A. That's w hat he's saying, yes. 8 Q. And that -- in kind o f layperson's 8 Q. W hich m eans he and the w e he's 9 term s, th at m eans either it w ouldn't go into 9 talking about had not started on it? 10 effect o r it w ouldn't have any type o f effect 10 A. Correct. 11 on us until after 1973, right? 11 Q. Okay. This is now seven years into 12 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 12 the com m ercial sale o f asbestos-containing hot 13 TH E WITNESS: I don't know w hat he 13 top s in th e U.S., co rrect? 14 means. 14 A. Correct. 15 BY MR. PANATIER: 15 Q. You can set that aside. 16 Q. Okay. W ell, he said they w ouldn't 16 Next we have Exhibit 21. 17 bite. Biting is typically a negative 17 (Money Deposition Exhibit No. 21 18 connotation; w ouldn't you agree? 18 w as m arked for identification.) 19 MR. KADISH: Objection. 19 BY MR. PANATIER: 20 THE W ITNESS: Don't know. It 20 Q. Sir, do you see this is a m em o from 21 probably is, yes. 21 Mr. Jago to Mr. Phoenix? 22 BY MR. PANATTER: 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Okay. And he's saying that he had 23 Q. April 4th, 1972, this is just a 24 planned a lot o f tim e -- he had planned to 24 little bit past that last m em o w e looked at 25 spend a lot of tim e on an asbestos replacement 25 from March. T h e subject is toxicity o f Profax, Page 187 Page 189 1 but had sort of put it on the back burner 1 Proflex, and how do you say that? Ferric? 2 because o f when they thought the regulations 2 A. Ferric. 3 would bite, correct? 3 Q. Ferric ingredients. W hat is ferric? 4 A. O r other projects that he had going, 4 A. It's the anti-piping exotherm ic 5 going on as well. 5 topping com pound put on the ingot m old. So 6 Q. Right. He says, "However, w e hope 6 there will be Profax boards around here, and on 7 to be able to start work on asbestos 7 the top o f it, it w ould be an exotherm ic 8 replacem ent in the third w eek in April, but at 8 powder. 9 present m om ent I cannot give you a firm date 9 Q. And this powder, did it ever have 10 fo r com pletion as you will, I hope, 10 asbestos in it? 11 appreciate." 11 A. No: 12 So at least w hat he's saying is if 12 Q. "Introduction: Recently much has 13 he's going to start on an asbestos replacem ent, 13 been w ritten in vario u s m em oranda ab o u t the 14 that suggests he had not started, correct? 14 potential dangers o f asbestos and the necessity 15 A. This particular person hadn't, no. 15 of rem oving it from our insulator form ulations. 16 Q. Okay. And w hat was - w hat products 16 I do not believe, how ever, th at anyone w h o has 17 w as that person responsible for? 17 been involved has really realized the m agnitude 18 A. He, he was responsible for the 18 of the problem s created by OSH A (197Q) and the 19 Profax, Proflex. 19 EPA, fo r it is not sim ply asbestos th a t is the 20 Q. T h a t w ere sold in the U.S.? 20 problem, but possibly every ingredient that w e 21 A. No, worldwide. 22 Q. Okay. Worldwide. Okay. 21 currently em ploy in our Profax, Proflex, and 22 ferric form ulations, for any dust or 23 So Mr. M ellodey is responsible for 24 the worldwide asbestos replacement program for 23 fum e-producing m aterial are now suspect and 24 every chemical substance are ultim ately to be 25 Profax and Proflex? 25 controlled." 48 (Pages 186 to 189) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 190 Page 192 1 So this is a reference to OSHA and 1 THE WITNESS: It's one 2 it has 1970 in parentheses? Do you see that? 2 interpretation, yes. 3 A. Yes. 3 BY MR. PANATIER: 4 Q. And do you understand that that's 4 Q. And you agree with that 5 when OSHA was passed? 5 interpretation? 6 A. I, I don't know for sure but that's 6 MR. KADISH: Objection. 7 the tim e fram e that I assum ed it was, yes. 7 T H E W ITNESS: It, it could be, yes. 8 Q. Okay. "Problem . O f im mediate 8 BY MR. PANAUER: 9 co ncern to th e S M PD d ivision ." W h a t's that? 9 Q. Okay. And they're concerned that if 10 A. Steel mill products division. 10 th e y ca n't sell them , th ey 're going to lose o u t 11 Q. All right. So steel mill products 11 o f -- th ey're going to lose o u t on $12 m illion 12 would certainly include hot tops? 12 o f sales based on those products, correct? 13 A. Yes. 13 MR. KADISH: Objection to form. 14 Q. "O f im m ediate concern to the SMPD 14 TH E W ITNESS: T h at's a possibility, 15 division are the federal regulations recently 15 yeah. 16 issued governing asbestos. State laws already 16 BY MR. PANATIER: 17 e x ist in N ew Y o rk and w h ich could outlaw 17 Q. Right. And that's, th at's actually 18 products containing m ore than 5 percent 18 a very fa ir reading o f this; isn 't it, sir? 19 asbestos after 1st o f June 1972. Also of 19 A. I th ink it is. 20 im m ediate concern are the rules now being 20 Q. Okay. And that's 12 m illion per 21 proposed for silica w hich are proposed to been 21 year; true? 22 effective in D e ce m b e r 1972. T h e se tw o 22 A. Yes. Yes. 23 ingredients m ake up 80 to 90 percent of the 23 Q. Okay. It says because of that 24 m aterial currently form ulated into Profax and 24 potential loss o f incom e o r revenue, it is 25 Proflex." 25 im perative to get action on alternative Page 191 Page 193 1 There w as a lot m ore silica in those 1 m aterials immediately. Again, they're bringing 2 products than there w as asbestos, right? 2 up the loss of sales. They are not saying we 3 A. Oh, yes. A lot more, yes. 3 need action or alternatives because o f health 4 Q. Okay. All right. 4 concerns, correct? 5 Skip a paragraph. Here is w hat it 5 MR. KADISH: Objection to form. 6 says. "As the Profax, Proflex, ferric heading 6 THE WITNESS: They do not say that 7 products make up a total o f $12 m illion o f 7 in this m em o, correct. 8 Foseco sales, it obviously is im perative to get 8 BY MR. PANATIER: 9 action on alternative m aterials im mediately." 9 Q. All right. "Actions: 10 Did I read that right? 10 Unfortunately, the sta ff available in the 11 A. Yes. 11 U.S.A. has been alm ost entirely engaged in 12 Q, He cites here the reason for 12 putting out fires in the m anufacture o f 13 substitutes is they w ant to continue to sell 13 satisfactory Proflex for m any m onths and no 14 these products, right? 14 m ajor effort has been devoted to the toxicity 15 A. They're saying that there's 15 program ." 16 $12 m illion o f business th at they have in the 16 Did I read that right? 17 hot topping area, w hich includes the, the 17 A. Yes. 18 ferric. And we, w e need to start working 18 Q. Now, sir, we've, w e've already 19 harder. 19 talked about Foseco's aw areness o f the risks of 20 Q. So w h at they're saying is they're 20 the asbestos it w as putting in these products. 21 afraid, at least in the w riting o f this memo, 21 It certainly w as aware o f the asbestosis risk 22 that they may not be able to sell these 22 and it was aware that there w as a risk of 23 products with asbesto s and silica in them ; 23 cancer as well, correct? 24 isn't that true, sir? 24 A. Correct. 25 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 25 Q. All right. And, sir, would you HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM 49 (Pages 190 to 193) ANTHONY MONEY Page 194 Page 196 1 agree that a m ajor effort to find a substitute 1 TH E W ITNESS: That's w hat he's 2 w as ju stifie d based on w h a t Foseco knew in 1965 2 saying. 3 to substitute asbestos? 3 BY MR. PANATIER: 4 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 4 Q. So all they needed, according to 5 THE WITNESS: They, they were 5 Mr. Jago, w ho you've talked to, w as to devote 6 considering and, and investigating possible 6 one man for six m onths for 100 percent o f his 7 alternatives to asbestos in '65. It w as a 7 tim e to this problem and he believed they could 8 continuing effort through this tim e period. 8 solve it? 9 BY MR. PANAT1ER: 9 A. No, he's -- I interpret that that 10 Q. My, m y question is a little, bit 10 they need som eone full-tim e on trying to w ork 11 different. Okay? 11 th ese fo rm u latio n th a t's th ey 're w o rkin g on, 12 My question is based on the risks 12 so m e o f th em w ith low asb e sto s, so m e w ith , w ith 13 known to Foseco in 1965, do you agree th a t in 13 asb esto s free, to try to g e t th em to w ork, try 14 fact a m ajor effort to find a substitute was 14 to get them to w ork to form ing the plants. 15 ju stified in 1965? 15 Q. W hat w e know as of April of 1972, 16 A. Yes, it was. 16 seven y ea rs into selling th e product, is p rio r 17 Q. Okay. But it had not happened to 17 to this tim e there w asn't som ebody dedicated 18 this date of April 4th, 1972, correct? 18 100 percent o f th e tim e for, fo r a period o f 19 A. No, no, it had. 19 six m onths to try to do w hat you ju st said, 20 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 20 correct? 21 THE WITNESS: It had. It's just 21 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 22 they're, they're still pursuing various 22 THE W ITNESS: I think there w ere 23 options. And they're putting as diligent 23 several people w orking on it, m aybe not one 24 effort in as they can. 24 dedicated. W hat he's asking for is an 25 25 additional person to help, not to start Page 195 Page 197 1 BY MR. PANATTER: 1 working. He's asking for an additional 2 Q. You're saying a m ajor effort had 2 purpose -- an additional person to help on 3 occurred, correct? 3 this project. 4 A. Yes. 4 BY MR. PANATIER: 5 Q. And w hat he's saying here in his own 5 Q. Mr. Jago believed that if he had one 6 words is no m ajor effort has been devoted to 6 more guy w ho could w ork full-tim e fo r six 7 the toxicity problem; is that correct? 7 months they could have the problem solved, 8 A. Correct. 8 correct? 9 Q. All right. The next section I w ant 9 A. That's w hat he's hoping for. 10 to look at is starting with "However" on that 10 Q. Right. Prior to this tim e, that 11 fro nt page a t the bottom . 11 resource had not been delegated w ithin the 12 A. Yeah. 12 co m pa ny to do that, correct? 13 Q. "However, satisfactory conclusion of 13 MR. KADISH: Objection. 14 such a project cannot be hoped for unless one 14 THE W ITNESS: Not to one individual, 15 man can devote 100 percent o f his tim e to the 15 person, right. 16 project fo r at least six m onths." 16 BY MR. PANATIER: 17 Did I read that right? 17 Q. Okay. Okay. Foseco certainly had 18 A. Yes, you did. 18 the resources and wherewithal, had they wanted 19 Q. So he's saying, basically, finding a 19 prior to this time, to dedicate one individual 20 substitute for asbestos cannot satisfactorily 20 full-tim e for six m onths on the issue o f the 21 occur unless we can have one person devote 100 21 substitutes fo r asbestos, correct? 22 percent o f their tim e to it for six months, 22 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 23 right? 23 THE WITNESS: They, they had people 24 MR. KADISH: Objection; asked and 24 w orking on it. 25 answered. 25 50 (Pages 194 to 197) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITTGATION.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 198 Page 200 1 BY MR. PANATTER: 1 MR. PANATTER: It's the last 2 Q. My question was different. My 2 sentence o f the -- 3 question is, Foseco had th e resources, had they 3 MR. INABINET: I'm going to star it. 4 w anted to, had they cared to, to set one person 4 MR. PANATTER: That's fine. 5 up 100 percent of their tim e for six m onths to 5 THE WITNESS: Okay. 6 handle the asbestos substitute issue, correct? 6 BY MR. PANATTER: 7 A. Yes, they could have. 7 Q. Okay. "As the m agnitude of the 8 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 8 project is enorm ous, it really requires 9 BY MR. PANATTER: 9 one-and-a-half or tw o m en devoting to it if the 10 Q. Okay. Because Mr. Jag o is 10 deadline o f Decem ber 1972 for an asbestos and 11 suggesting it now, w e know they had not at that 11 silica-free pro duct is to be reached." 12 tim e, correct? 12 Did I read that right? 13 A. As I, I said, they, they, they had 13 A. Yes. 14 people w orking on it. W hether there w as one 14 Q. And so Mr. Jago is saying, you know, 15 person that said you are w orking on this 15 to, to really com e up w ith a substitute by th at 16 full-tim e, I'm not sure. 16 deadline, you need one-and-a-half to tw o men, 17 Q. T h e point -- as w e saw in the 17 which basically m eans one m an full-tim e plus 18 earlier m em os from '65 and '67, the point of 18 an o th er m an h a lf tim e to, tw o full-tim e, right? 19 the substitute was to elim inate the recognized 19 A. Correct. 20 risk from both the folks in the m anufacture and 20 Q. Okay. And then "Proposed," number 21 the end users, correct? 21 one, do you see that below? 22 A. Correct. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Foseco recognized a risk for that 23 Q. "To increase laboratory effort 24 entire period o f tim e from '65 to 7 2 , correct? 24 im m ediately by one laboratory technician 25 A. Correct. 25 already being processed and one chem ist, this Page 199 Page 201 1 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 1 man w ould be chosen so that in a year or so he 2 BY MR. PANATTER: 2 could be rem oved - he could be moved 3 Q. They did not pass along their 3 elsewhere." 4 knowledge o f the risk to the end users, 4 He's basically proposing the types 5 correct? 5 o f people he would w ant for this project, 6 A. Not that I'm aw are of, no. 6 right? 7 Q. Now, if you continue on the -- 7 A. Correct. 8 you're on the right page - in that second 9 paragraph, the last sentence, it says, "As the 8 Q. All right. So you can set that 9 aside. 10 m agnitude o f the project is enorm ous, it really 10 This will be Exhibit 22. 11 requires one to o n e-a nd -a-h alf o r tw o m en 11 (Money Deposition Exhibit No. 22 12 devoting to it if the dea dline o f D ecem ber" - 12 was marked for identification.) 13 A. I'm sorry. I'm lost again. 13 BY MR. PANATTER: 14 Q. The last paragraph o f the, o f the 14 Q. Sir, this is a May 22nd, 1972, m emo. 15 big paragraph there. I mean -- I'm sorry. The 15 Do you see that? 16 last sentence of the big paragraph. 16 A. Yes. 17 A. Can you start again and I'll try to 17 Q. It's from K.M. Swingle, assistant to 18 find it? 18 E J . Jago, right? 19 Q. Yes, sir. It starts with, "As the 19 A. Yes. 20 magnitude...." Do you see that? 20 Q. So that's the Foseco, Inc., right? 21 A. My eyes are - 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. That's fine. That's fine. W e've 22 Q. And he's writing to Kaiser Steel. I 23 looked at a lot o f stuff. 23 take it they w ere a custom er, true? 24 MR. INABINET: It's not highlighted, 24 A. Yes. 25 Chris. That's w hy he's having a hard time. 25 Q. He says, "Dear Sir, Enclosed are the HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM 51 (Pages 198 to 201) ANTHONY MONEY Page 202 Page 204 1 typical chem ical analysis and OSHA m aterial 2 safety and health data sheets for Profax 31, 1 Q. Does he convey -- 2 ^ THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the 3 Profax 10, and Proflex G3. Ia m glad to 3 video record at 2:00 p.m. 4 provide the enclosed chem ical analysis to you 4 (Whereupon, a recess was taken.) 5 on the understanding that it is used only to 5 TH E VIDEOGRAPHER: W e're back on the 6 establish health hazard potential or quality 6 video record at 2:03 p.m. 7 control procedures." 7 BY MR. PANATIER: 8 W hen he says "I'm glad to provide 8 Q. All right, sir. So here the 9 the enclosed chemical analysis to you on the 9 assistant to Mr. Jago -- by the way, K.M. 10 understanding th at it is used only to establish 10 Swingle, he's Mr. Jago's assistant, do you know 11 health hazard potential o r quality control 11 w h a t his tra in in g o r ed u ca tio n w a s? 12 procedures," w hat does he m ean? 12 A. It w as his secretary. 13 A. He means that we expect you to keep 13 Q. His secretary. Okay. 14 confidential the ingredients w e're telling you 14 A. So it w as a girl. 15 that's in the recipe. 15 Q. Okay. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Okay. 16 Q. Now, the m aterial safety data sheet 16 So K.M. -- do you know the person's 17 is som ething th at w as required under the Hazard 17 nam e? 18 Com m unications Act, right? 18 A. Karen. 19 A. It w as required. I'm not sure what 19 Q. Okay. Karen Sw ingle, w ho is the 20 act it w as to do with. 20 assistant to Mr. Jago, is w riting a custom er of 21 Q. Okay. And any custom er that 21 Foseco, right? 22 requested one was entitled to get one, right? 22 A. Yes. 23 A. Yes. 23 Q. And his secretary says, "You will 24 Q. Now, you d id n 't send them out 24 note that the m aterial as delivered does 25 autom atically with the product, did you? 25 contain asbestos and therefore should be Page 203 Page 205 1 A. Yes, I believe w e did, yes. 1 handled with som e care. H ow ever, in the board 2 Q. Okay. Are you saying that a 2 form, the fibers are closely bonded and 3 material safety data sheet went along with, 3 unlikely to cause any m ajor health hazard 4 what, every box of hot tops? 4 problems." 5 A. Every shipm ent that -- of hot tops, 5 This is a secretary at Foseco 6 yes. 6 telling one o f the custom ers th at th e board is 7 Q. W ho did the MSD sheet go to? Did it 7 unlikely to cause any m ajor health hazard 8 go to the receiving agent, I guess? 8 problems, right? 9 A. My understanding is that the MSDS 9 A. No. His secretary sent it out, but 10 sheets w ent to the steel mill direct, but there 10 it was, it w as -- it w as a Ted Jago memo. 11 w as also one enclosed w ith every shipm ent. 11 It's ~ probably he w as, he w a s o u t o f the 12 Q. Right. 12 office or visiting, and so he, he said this 13 A. So it's w hoever opened the shipm ent. 13 letter's got to go out. A nd b ecau se he w a sn 't 14 Q. Okay. So whoever opened the 14 in the office that day, he got his, his 15 shipm ent got th e MSD sheet? 15 assistant to, to send it out. 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. Okay. It says, "Profax 31. You 16 Q. Okay. W ell, I mean, usually it's -- 17 usually it's signed w ith perm ission Mr. Jago or 18 will note that the m aterial as delivered does 18 som ething like that. T h is on e is fro m her. 19 contain asbestos and therefore should be 19 A. Som etim es but not, not all the time, 20 handled with som e care. However, in the board 20 no. 21 form, the fibers are closely bonded and 22 unlikely to cause any m ajor health problem." 23 Does he there mention what happens 21 Q. Okay. W ell, either way, what's 22 being told to Kaiser Steel Corporation is that 23 the board form -- the board form - w h at is 24 after you use the boards? 25 A. No, he does not. 24 being told to this custom er o f Foseco is that 25 in the board form the fibers are closely bonded 52 (Pages 202 to 205) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLmGATION.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 206 Page 208 1 and unlikely to cause any m ajor health hazard, 1 It doesn't say there's none left; 2 right? 2 does it? 3 A. Correct. 3 A. It does not specifically say that, 4 Q. The fibers are not closely bonded 4 but his interpretation w as that it w as 0. 5 after the product is used, correct? 5 Q. W ell, then shouldn't he have told 6 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 6 Karen to put 0 there Instead o f below 7 THE W ITNESS: W e've had that 7 5 percent? 8 discussion. It's -- Jago's com m ents were 8 A. He w as ju st being cautious. 9 that it's no longer asbestos after use. 9 Q. But he didn't say 4 percent or 3 or 10 BY MR. PANATIER: 10 2 o r 1; did he? 11 Q. My question is it's no longer 11 A. No, but that's because it's back to 12 bonded; is it? 12 the initial O SH A -- I don't know w hether you 13 A. I'm not technically qualified to 13 call It rules. I t w a s saying - th e first 14 answ er that, but I would suspect it's burnt 14 report w e got w as that -- I think it w as the 15 away. 15 OSH A Reporter th at says the proposed and 16 Q. And, sir, you know th at in th e steel 16 expected w arning is, is going to be on unbonded 17 industry they have to knock off the old hot top 17 or asbestos unbonded fibers below 5 percent. 18 m aterial. It usually com es off pretty easily. 18 A nd th at's w h ere the 5 percent is 19 and then they use com pressed air to clean the 19 com ing. And then there w as alw ays 20 area, correct? 20 conversation, w ell, that's m ight change and 21 A. Correct. 21 that's w here they w ere saying it could be as 22 Q. So they're - they are - the board 22 low as 2 percent. 23 is in a form th at is very easily knocked o ff o f 23 And w hat Jago was doing here, he was 24 the steel, correct? 24 saying that the board asbestos was 4 percent. 25 A. Correct. 25 And he's saying it w as below, below the 2 Page 207 Page 209 1 Q. And it is very easily disposed off, 1 percent. And just to play cautious, he said 2 at least aw ay from the steel, via com pressed 2 that it would be below 5 percent, which was the 3 air, right? 3 interpretation o f the requirem ents at that tim e 4 A. Yes. 4 in May. 5 Q. Okay. By the way, did Foseco ever 5 Q. W hat Mr. Jago's com m unicating to his 6 conduct any studies o f that activity, knocking 6 custom er here is that after use, for both 7 off the old m aterial from an ingot and then 7 Profax and for Proflex, the tw o hot top 8 com pressed air, spraying it away? 8 m aterials w e've been talking about prim arily, 9 A. No. 9 there's asbestos left after use, correct? 10 Q. Okay. But it knew that's what 10 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 11 happened? 11 THE W ITNESS: No, he's saying, he's 12 A. Yes. 12 saying it will be below that amount. 13 Q. Okay. The other side of the use, 13 BY MR. PANATIER: 14 the knocking o ff o f the old material, is not 14 Q. He says after heating to 2,000 15 m entioned here at all, correct? 15 degrees, Profax w ill be below 2 percent 16 A. Correct. 16 asbestos in the residual m aterial, right? 17 Q. Then under Proflex G3, it says, "The 17 A. Correct. 18 com position provided represents a typical 18 Q. And for Proflex, he says it w ill be 19 analysis of the residue form ed by the board 19 below 5? 20 after use. The original bonded board may vary 20 A. Correct. 21 from this com position by some minor amount. 21 Q. You're saying he had a test that 22 Before use the board contains 15 percent 22 showed 0, right? 23 asbestos fiber. After heating to 2,000 23 A. Correct. 24 degrees, the residual content will be below 24 Q. He doesn't say I have a test that 25 5 percent." 25 show s 0; does he? HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM 53 (Pages 206 to 209) ANTHONY MONEY Page 210 Page 212 1 A. No, he didn't. 1 percentage of asbestos, it's based on how much 2 Q. And then he also doesn't cite to the 2 asbestos is release into the air? 3 other m em o w e saw which cited to 700 million 3 A. No, I d o n 't b elie ve w e did. T h e y 4 fibers per one pound of ash, correct? 4 were trying to understand OSHA. 5 A. No, did he not. 5 Q. My question w as, do you know w hether 6 Q. He did not include that inform ation 6 or not they follow ed up and said, hey, by the 7 here, right? 7 way, w hat w e told you before, not accurate, the 8 A. No. 8 warning requirem ents and label requirem ents are 9 Q. Now, you said that there was a 9 based on how m uch asbestos goes in the air, not 10 proposed rule m aking th a t talked abo ut 10 th e percentage in th e product? 11 5 percent and 2 percent fo r w arning? 11 MR. KADISH: Objection to form. 12 A. W hat I, I said or should have said 12 TH E WITNESS: I see no documents 13 is th at w e got a report from the -- I think it 13 saying that, no. 14 was called the Reporter fo r OSHA. And it said 14 MR.. PANATTER: O kay. T h is next 15 th e proposed and expected requirem ents for 15 docum ent will be Exhibit 23. 16 w arning labels w ould be th a t if th ere w a s m ore 16 TH E W ITNESS: Finished w ith this 17 than 5 percent of unbonded fibers, asbestos 17 one? 18 fibers, there would be a w arning label 18 MR. PANATTER: Yes, sir. 19 required. 19 (M oney Deposition Exhibit No. 23 20 T h e 2 percent cam e in if - there 20 w as m arked fo r identification.) 21 w as also discussion out there that that could 21 BY MR. PANATIER: 22 be changed and it could go as low as 2 percent. 22 Q. All right. Sir, that's a m aterial 23 T hat w as the current feeling in that tim e 23 safety data sheet from Foseco. Do you see 24 period. 24 that? 25 Q. Is it Foseco's position that O SHA 25 A. Yes. Page 211 Page 213 1 had a warning requirem ent for asbestos- 1 Q. You have seen a num ber o f these in 2 containing products that was based on the 2 the past, correct? 3 percent o f asbestos? 3 A. Correct. 4 A. It, it wasn't afterwards. When we 4 Q. And if you'll turn to the second 5 went through the final regulations when they 5 page, could you tell us the date o f that? 6 cam e out, it did not m ention percentages o f 6 A. It's August 21st, 1972. 7 asbestos. But in the, in the OSHA Reporter 7 Q. All right. These cam e out 8 that we received, that's what these discussions 8 throughout the year, and I think we'll look at 9 were based on. It was -- that it was saying 9 som e others that w ere a couple m onths earlier. 10 5 percent by weight. 10 But w h o is th a t signed by? 11 Q. And to be clear, the final 11 A. Ted Jago. 12 regulations, w hich w ere published one m onth 12 Q. So this is kind o f the main 13 after this o r w ent into effect one m onth after 13 technical g u y w e 've been talking ab o u t and th at 14 this, had to do w ith w arning requirem ents and 14 we've seen on som e o f this correspondence? 15 w hether or not in the foreseeable use o f the 15 A. That's correct. 16 product they w ould release fibers in excess o f 16 Q. If you go back to the front, it is 17 the PEL, correct? 17 for w hat product? 18 A. It w as in excess o f w hatever PEL is. 18 A. Profax. 19 Q. Right. W hatever the limit was? 19 Q. So it's a Foseco hot top, right? 20 A. Correct. 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. You had to put a label on it, right? 21 Q. And under Section 2, "Hazardous 22 A. Correct. 22 Ingredients," it lists asbestos, right? 23 Q. Okay. After that cam e out, do you 23 A. Correct. 24 know w hether or not Foseco followed up with its 24 Q. W hat does it say, the highlighted 25 custom ers and said, okay, it's not based on 25 section? 54 (Pages 210 to 213) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLIT1GAT10N.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 214 Page 216 1 A. "This product was supplied as a 1 Q. So w here did that dizziness thing 2 bonded bore and does not create asbestos dust 2 com e from? 3 during norm al handling. No significant hazards 3 A. I don't know. 4 should therefore arise from the use of this 4 Q. So he's talking about this product 5 product." 5 that contains asbestos, and w hat he says as the 6 Q. He does not address the other part 6 health hazard data is, it m ig ht m ake you dizzy, 7 o f the use o f the product, w hich is th e rem oval 7 it m ight irritate your m ucous m em branes, right? 8 of the used product from the ingots, correct? 8 A. Correct. 9 A. Correct. 9 Q. He does not say what we know Foseco 10 Q. He does not talk about the use of 10 knew, w hich is asbestos can cause asbestosis, 11 pneum atic nailing; does he? 11 right? 12 A. No, he does not. 12 A. He does not say that. 13 Q. He does state, "How ever" -- next he 13 Q. And, in fact, Foseco knew that 14 says, "However, as of July 7th, 1972, the 14 asbestos could cause asbestosis in even sm all 15 8-hour tim e-w eighted average airborne 15 am ounts. W e saw that from the earlier m em o, 16 concentration o f asbestos fiber to which any 16 correct? 17 em ployee m ay be exposed shall not exceed 5, 17 A. W e did, bu t also the steel mill knew 18 longer than 5 m icrom eters," and I think he's 18 that o u r products contained asbestos. 19 talking about 5 fibers, "per cubic centim eter 19 Q. So -- w ell, then you shouldn't have 20 of air. Regular air m onitoring is suggested." 20 supplied this at all, then; right? 21 Right? 21 A. No, w e w ere required to supply this. 22 A. Correct. 22 Q. Okay. Okay. So here's m y question. 23 Q. T here does it list -- actually, 23 Did they say -- did Mr. Jago say that sm all 24 we'll go to the next page. Go to the next 24 am ounts of asbestos exposure can cause 25 page. On the top, Section v, health hazard 25 asbestosis? Page 215 Page 217 1 data, do vou see that? 1 A. No, he does not. 2 A. W hat does it start with? I can't 2 Q. Does he say that we know that 3 see a 5. 3 asbestos as used in ou r products has been 4 Q. It's on the very top. It's a (v). 4 im plicated in cancer? 5 A. Okay. 5 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 6 Q. Section v. 6 THE W ITNESS: He does not. 7 A. Section v, yes, I do. 7 BY MR. PANATIER: 8 Q. Right. Health hazard data, and it 8 Q. Okay. Does he m ention m esotheliom a? 9 says -- It's tough to see there, but it says, 9 A. No. 10 "Effects o f O ver-Exposure," and I've 10 Q. Okay. And then if you go down to 11 highlighted that. W hat does th a t say? 11 special p recautions at th e very bottom . It's 12 A. It says, "D uring strip" -- in 12 Section ix o r i-x. 13 brackets ~ "(w ithout adequate ventilatio n)" -- 13 A. Yes. 14 end of brackets -- "dust may cause dizziness 14 Q. W h at does it say? 15 and irritation o f the m ucous m em brane." 15 A. Store at room temperatures. 16 Q. All right. So he actually m entions 16 Q. Okay. Sir, it is true th at this 17 during stripping, which is the, the second part 17 m aterial data sheet that you're looking for for 18 o f the use o f the product, right? 18 Foseco hot tops did not convey to the custom er 19 A. Correct. 19 everything Foseco knew about the hazards of 20 Q. Okay. And he says m ay cause w hat -- 20 asbestos, right? 21 did he say dizziness? 21 A. It did not. 22 A. Yes. 22 Q. Okay. You can set that aside, sir. 23 Q. And irritation of the m ucous 23 W e w ere just looking at Profax, 24 membranes? 24 correct? 25 A. Correct. 25 A. That was Profax, correct. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITTGATION.COM 55 (Pages 214 to 217) ANTHONY MONEY Page 218 Page 220 1 Q. Okay. So just to round it out, I 1 Q. But that one doesn't say dizziness, 2 will m ark the MSD sheet for Proflex. That will 2 does it? 3 be Num ber 24. 3 A. No, it does not. 4 (Money Deposition Exhibit No. 24 4 Q. So Profax m ay m ake you dizzy; 5 w as marked for identification.) 5 Proflex m ay not? 6 BY MR. PANA7IER: 6 A. That's the w ording it shows, but... 7 Q. Sir, is that a m aterial data sheet? 7 Q. Okay. T his M SD sheet, sir, ju st 8 A. Yes. 8 like th e Profax sheet th at w e ju st looked at 9 Q. Put together by Foseco? 9 it, it did not convey everything th at Foseco 10 A. Yes. 10 already knew about the dangers of asbestos, 11 Q. W ho signed that one? 11 co rrect? 12 A. That's what I was looking. Ted 12 A. It did not. 13 Jago. 13 Q. It does not talk about asbestosis, 14 Q, All right. W hat's, what's the date 14 lung cancer, or m esotheliom a, correct? 15 he put on there? 15 A. It does not. 16 A. March 24th, 1972. 16 Q. And, sir, under "Special 17 Q. This is for Proflex, w hich is a 17 Precautions" dow n at th e bottom , w hat are the 18 slightly different product than Profax, but 18 special precautions it lists? 19 still asbestos-containing, correct? 19 A. "Store at room tem perature." 20 A. Correct. 20 Q. All right. T h an k you, sir. You can 21 Q. All right. Again, under "Hazardous 21 set th at aside. 22 Mixtures of Other Liquids, Solids or Gases" 22 This will be 25. 23 under Section 2, w hat does it say about 23 (M oney Deposition Exhibit No. 25 24 asbestos? 24 w as m arked for identification.) 25 A. "(Asbestos) - in brackets -- "as an 25 Page 219 Page 221 1 em ergency standard fo r asbestos d u st is now in 1 BY MR. PANA71ER: 2 force)" -- end o f brackets -- "there is a no 2 Q. lu s t looking at the front there, 3 established TLV. However, the 8-hour time- 3 sir. 4 weighted average airborne concentrate of 4 A. Yes. 5 asbestos dust to which em ployees are exposed 5 Q. This Exhibit 25 is ju st the results 6 shall not exceed 5 fibers per" - w hatever it 6 of an air sam pling survey and noise survey that 7 is - "greater than 5 m icrons in length. As 7 was done June 13th, 1972, fo r Foseco, correct? 8 Proflex (G-3) is supplied in board form and 8 A. Yes. 9 does not create an asbestos dust, Proflex (G-3) 9 Q. Okay. Now, here's a question I 10 should not pose any significant hazard." 10 have. Did Foseco devote the sam e level of 11 Q. All right. Again, that one for that 11 attention to protecting the ultim ate users of 12 product, it doesn't m ention the second part o f 12 its asb esto s pro ducts as it did protecting its 13 the use o f the product, w hich is the stripping 13 ow n em p lo yees from a sb e sto s hazards? 14 there, correct? 14 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 15 A. It does not. 15 T H E W ITN E SS: It, it, it tried to 16 Q. Okay. Now, if you turn the page, I 16 protect both. 17 believe at the top of the page, sir, under 17 BY MR. PANATTER: 18 Section 5, "Health Hazard Data," it does 19 address stripping, correct? 18 Q. It tried -- okay. Are you saying 19 that Foseco tried to use the sam e level of 20 A. It does. 21 Q. And what are the health effects of 20 diligence in protecting its ow n em ployees that 21 it did protecting the actual end users o f its 22 stripping that it says? 22 own products? 23 A. It's the same wording as the Profax, 23 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 24 dust may cause irritation of the mucous 25 membranes. 24 T H E W ITN ESS: T h e re w as ch e ck s in 25 place within the plant, and, and -- because 56 (Pages 218 to 221) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITlGATION.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 222 Page 224 1 they had direct access to those controls or 2 procedures necessary. They did not have 3 direct access to controls and procedures 4 w ithin the steel mills. 5 BY MR. PANATTER: 6 Q. Sure. W hat I'm saying is did Foseco 1 products in steel mill. 2 BY MR. PANATTER: 3 Q. Ultim ately, did Foseco put forth -- 4 have to put forth more effort to create a safe 5 w orkin g environm ent fo r its ow n em ployees than 6 it did to sell a safe product to the steel 7 put forth the sam e efforts to provide a safe 8 w orking place for its own em ployees as it did 9 to provide a safe product to the folks working 7 m ills? 8 MR. KADISH: Objection; form . 9 TH E W ITNESS: Yeah, I would believe 10 in (the steel m ill? 10 so, yes. 11 MR. KADISH: Objection; form . 12 TH E W ITNESS: It, it, it tried to 11 BY MR. PANATTER: 12 Q. Okay. So there was more effort - 13 provide a safe place for both. 14 BY MR. PANATTER: 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. - put into, okay, the, the em ployee 15 Q. Do you believe that Foseco gave the 15 effort -- 16 sam e attention to trying to provide a safe 16 A. Yes. 17 workplace, the sam e level of attention as the 17 Q. -- than the product effort? 18 level of attention it had tow ards providing a 18 A. Yes. 19 safe product w hen it sold it? 20 A. It, it -- 19 Q. Okay. So let's look at this. This 20 is, o f course, an air sam pling and noise survey 21 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 21 done fo r Foseco. This w as for the Cleveland 22 THE WITNESS: It obviously spent 22 facility, correct? 23 m ost - a lot o f its tim e on the plant, 23 A. Let m e look. Yes. 24 production plant, if that's - that answ ers 24 Q. All right. And so there's a lot to 25 your guestion. 25 talk about noise levels. W e'll turn to page 4. Page 223 Page 225 1 BY MR. PANATTER: 1 Can you see there's a highlighted section 2 Q. W ell - and this may help. You're 2 called "Conclusion"? 3 obviously going to have a different set of 3 A. Yes. 4 things you have to do fo r people in yo u r own 4 Q. It says, "Conclusion: Dust Survey. 5 plant than for, for a product you're selling, 5 Based on the results o f our air sam ples, it 6 right? 6 w ould indicate that properly designed local 7 A. Correct. 7 exhaust ventilation is needed in the follow ing 8 Q. You have different responsibilities 8 areas. Area 0-8, 0-2 and 0-7," that's pulper, 9 and there's a different way you handle safety 9 oven unloading, and pulper, and those are folks 10 from , from each one, right? 10 w orking w ith asbestos m aking hot tops, right? 11 A. Correct. 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. My question is, is from -- in a 12 Q. That means that Foseco was not 13 general sense, was the am ount o f diligence in 13 m ain tainin g asbesto s d u st below required levels 14 providing a safe workplace for Foseco's actual 14 fo r those people, right? 15 workers, was that the sam e level o f diligence 15 A. On th is stu dy th at's w h a t he says, 16 that Foseco put into creating a safe product? 16 correct. 17 MR. KADISH: Objection; form; asked 17 Q. Okay. All right. 18 and answered. 18 And then if you turn the page, 19 THE WITNESS: I, I can't m ake any 19 th ere 's a, a h ighlight there. Y o u 're already 20 more com m ents than I've said. They, they 20 there. It's got a series o f recom m endations, 21 looked at the method of m anufacture and put 21 but N um ber 2 is "A less hazardous m aterial may 22 w hatever reasonable effort they could, 22 be substituted instead o f asbestos, perhaps 23 understanding what the requirem ents were, 23 som e other m ineral fiber, right? 24 the problems were, and they addressed them. 24 A. Correct. 25 And they did the sam e with the finished 25 Q. So this is - the folks w ho did the HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITTGATION.COM 57 (Pages 222 to 225) ANTHONY MONEY Page 226 Page 228 1 survey are saying, hey, you guys should find a 1 sentence, sir, that every single place they 2 substitute for asbestos, right? 2 sam pled for airborne contam inants w as in excess 3 A. Yes. He says it, it m ay be 3 of OSHA standards. 4 substituted. 4 A. That's w hat it says, correct. 5 Q. Right. 5 Q. Does that suggest to you that Foseco 6 A. Yes. ................................... - . ....................... 6 w a s using a re a so n a b le level o f d ilig e n ce in 7 Q. Because if you substitute som ething 7 protecting its w orkers? 8 that's less hazardous, you decrease th e hazard, 8 A. Yes, they were. It's ju st that 9 right? 9 som etim es products -- I mean, processes and 10 A. Correct. 10 equipm ent m alfunction, break dow n. 11 Q. This w as som ething Foseco already 11 Q. So it just so happens that for tw o 12 knew. T h e y already knew th e y needed to find a 12 surveys w e've looked at, all o f th e sam ples 13 substitute fo r asbestos, right? 13 w e re in exce ss o f the, th e levels th a t w e re in 14 A. And w e're w orking on it. 14 effect that w e've looked at, right? 15 Q. Right. Do you know w hether or not 15 A. That's correct. 16 at th is tim e Foseco had d evoted resources to 16 MR. KADISH: Objection; form . 17 put one m an on it fo r 100 p ercent o f its tim e? 17 BY MR. PANATIER: 18 A. I don't. 18 Q. And that's a coincidence? 19 Q. For six m onths? Y ou d o n 't know 19 A. No, I don't know. W e -- w e, w e did 20 that? 20 a, a reasonable effort on m aking sure th at we 21 A. I don't. 21 had th e ad eq uate controls in place. But, I 22 Q. All right. You can set that aside, 22 m ean, it w as part of this m aking sure that if 23 sir. 23 there w as any problem s that arose w e took 24 This next one is Exhibit 26. 24 action on. 25 25 Q. Sir, there w as a problem th a t arose ; Page 227 Page 229 1 (Money Deposition Exhibit No. 26 1 for every sam ple that was done, right? 2 was marked for identification.) 2 A. Okay. Yes, that's w hat it says. 3 BY MR. PANATIER: 3 Q. Every single one was above OSHA 4 Q. Sir, you know that this is the 4 limits. 5 results of a survey at Foseco's Chicago 5 A. Correct. 6 facility, correct? 6 Q. And you told the jury that Foseco 7 A. Correct. 7 put m ore effort into em ployee safety than they 8 Q. And they're looking for asbestos 8 did into product safety, right? 9 fiber concentrations, right? 9 A. Correct. 10 A. And mineral dust, yes. 10 Q. All right, sir. So the next section 11 Q. Right. If you will turn to the page 11 is th e page m arked 1135. It says, "Findings: 12 m arked 2 but it's Bates-stam ped 1132. 12 T h e upstairs m ixing operation w orker w as 13 A. Okay. 13 exp o sed to asbesto s fib e r co n cen tra tio n s o f 14 Q. All right. 14 107, 133, and 186 fibers per m illiliter greater 15 A. Yes. 15 th an 5 m icrons in length as dete rm ine d fro m the 16 Q. "Conclusions: Because em ployee 16 th ree sa m p les co llected." 17 exposure to airborne co ntam inants a t all 17 Now, sir, you know at this tim e and, 18 locations tested w as in excess o f th e standards 18 in fact, they say it, the stan d ard sa y s you 19 presented in the Occupational Safety & Health 19 can't go above 5, right? 20 Act of 1970, the following proposals are 20 A. Correct. 21 presented." 22 And there's a num ber of different 21 Q. And these results are 107, 133, and 22 186, right? 23 proposals, correct? 23 A. That's w hat it says, yes. 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. But we can take from just that one 24 Q. It says, "These, these are 25 concentrations o f 21, 27, and 37 tim es the 58 (Pages 226 to 229) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 230 Page 232 1 present acceptable level of 5 fibers per 1 and palletizing hot tops w as exposed to a 2 m illiliter greater than 5 m icrons in length." 2 m ineral dust concentration o f 14.3 m illigram s 3 Sir, would you agree that those 3 o f d ust per cubic m eter of air," and that's 4 w orkers should absolutely have not have been 4 ju st a general m ineral dust sam ple, correct? 5 exposed to those levels of asbestos if the 5 A. Correct. 6 com pany w as exercising even rem ote care? 6 Q. All right. You can turn the page. 7 MR. INABINET: Objection; form. 7 And I m ay be finished with this docum ent. Let 8 T H E W ITN ESS: T h e re w a s co n tro ls in 8 m e just make sure. 9 place. And if there's -- they w ere the -9 If you'll turn to the page m arked 10 m easurem ents shown, then, yeah, it would, 10 1140, sir, you can se e th a t th e y actually 11 it w ould be a problem w hich w e would 11 p ro vid ed fo r Foseco a co p y o f th e proposed 12 address. 12 rules. 13 BY MR. PANATIER: 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. I m ean, you say th e re 's co n trols in 14 Q. Is this w hat you w ere referring to 15 place. W hat w ere they? 15 as th e - w here you thought it discussed a 16 A. There w as respirators and dust 16 percentage? 17 extractors, dust collection. 17 A. No. 18 Q. I mean, what were the dust 18 Q. O kay. Is it in th is d o cu m e n t? 19 extractors? And, and pardon m e, but w ere they 19 A. No. 20 -- I mean, w ere vacuum cleaners suspended from 20 Q. All right. You can set that aside. 21 the ceiling? W hat w as it? 21 MR. INABINET: Let's take a quick 22 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 22 break. 23 THE WITNESS: They were exhaust 23 MR. PAN ATIER : Yeah, let's do it. 24 fans. They w ere dust collectors and 24 TH E VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the 25 respirators, as I've said. 25 record at 2:32 p.m . w ith th e end o f T ape 4. Page 231 Page 233 1 BY MR. PANATIER: 1 (Whereupon, a recess was taken.) 2 Q. The dust collection system , whatever 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: W e're back on the 3 it was, it clearly was not working, right? 3 v id e o record at 2:39 p.m . w ith Videotape 5. 4 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 4 BY MR. PANATIER: 5 THE W ITNESS: It w asn't working as 5 Q. One moment. 6 it should be if these, if these sam ples 6 This will be Exhibit 27. 7 were -- when these sam ples w ere taken, 7 (Money Deposition Exhibit No. 27 8 that's correct. 8 w as m arked for identification.) 9 BY MR. PANATIER: 9 BY MR. PANATIER: 10 Q. It w asn't working as it should be by 10 Q. Sir, can you see that this is an 11 a factor o f over 20 tim es, right? 11 e x ce rp t from th e Federal R egister? T h is is 12 A. That's w hat it says, yes. 12 from the Title 29, the Occupational Safety & 13 Q. And over 37 tim es in one instance, 13 Health Adm inistration, Departm ent o f Labor, 14 true? 14 occupational safety and health standards for 15 A. Correct. 15 asbestos. 16 Q. And, again, it's still your 16 A. Yes. 17 testim ony that Foseco put more effort into the 17 Q. Can you see that th e date there is 18 safety of its em ployees than it did its 18 June 7th, 1972? At the very bottom. 19 products. 19 A. Yes. 20 MR. KADISH: Objection; form; asked 20 Q. Okay. I want to ask you a few 21 and answered; argum entative. 21 things. First o f all, there should be a 22 THE WITNESS: Correct. 22 h ig hlig h t th ere in th e far right colum n. Do 23 BY MR. PANATIER: 23 you see that? 24 Q. If you go down to the next 24 A. Yes, I do. 25 highlight, sir, it says, "The w orker unloading 25 Q. A nd th at statem e nt says -- th is is HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM 59 (Pages 230 to 233) ANTHONY MONEY Page 234 Page 236 1 OSHA now -- "In view of the undisputed grave 1 Q. Right. And then you can see in the 2 consequences from exposure to asbestos fibers, 2 n ext p a ra g ra p h -- w e 're n o t going to read it, 3 it is essential that the exposure be regulated 3 but you can see they actually say w hat it's 4 now on the basis of the best evidence available 4 going to drop to in 1976. 5 now even though it m ay not be as good as 6 scientifically desirable. An asbestos standard 5 A. Yeah. D o you w ant m e to read it? 6 Q. No. You can see they actually tell 7 can be reevaluated in th e light o f th e results 7 you w hat, w h at it's going to go to. 8 of ongoing studies and future studies but 8 A. Yes. 9 cannot w ait for them . Lives o f em ployees are 9 Q. Okay. All right. If you'll turn to 10 at stake now." 10 the next page, sir, w e have the caution label 11 I asked you earlier w hether Foseco 11 section. Do y o u se e th a t I'v e hig hlig h ted th at 12 would be fam iliar w ith different regulations 12 fo r you? 13 th at applied to w h a t it did. A nd certain ly 13 A. Yes. 14 th ey w ould have been aw a re o f this, co rrect? 14 Q. It says, "Caution labels: Labeling, 15 A. They would have, yes. 15 caution labels shall be affixed to all raw 16 Q. All right. And Foseco w ould have 16 m aterials, m ixtures, scrap, w aste, debris, and 17 know n th a t O S H A said lives o f em p lo y e es a re a t 17 other products containing asbestos fibers o r to 18 stake w ith regard to asbestos, correct? 18 their containers, e xce p t th at no label is 19 A. Correct. 19 required w here asbestos fibers have been 20 Q. Sir, if you will turn tw o m ore 20 m odified by a bonding agent, coating, binder, 21 pages, it's the page th a t at th e very top is 22 11320. 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. All right. There's a little 21 or other m aterial so that during any reasonably 22 foreseeable use, handling, storage, disposal, 23 processing, or transportation no airborne 24 concentrations of asbestos fibers in excess o f 25 boxed-in highlight there. 25 the exposure lim its prescribed in paragraph (b) Page 235 Page 237 1 A. Yes. 1 of the section will be released." 2 Q. Do you see that it says "perm issible 2 And you and I have talked about this 3 exposure to airborne concentrations of 3 a little bit. W hat that m eans is you need a 4 asbestos"? 4 label if in the foreseeable use o f the product 5 A. Yes. 5 you can exceed the PEL. 6 Q. And it says, "The standard effective 6 A. That's correct. 7 July 7th, 1972, the 8-hour tim e-weighted 7 Q. Right? 8 average airborne concentrations of asbestos 8 W hat tests did Foseco do to 9 fibers to which any em ployee may be exposed 9 determ ine w hether or not they would exceed the 10 shall not exceed 5 fibers, longer than 5 10 PEL in th e forese ea b le use o f th eir hot tops? 11 m icrom eters, per cubic cen tim eter o f a ir as 11 A. At this tim e fram e, I don't believe 12 determ ined by th e m ethod prescribed in 12 th at th ey did any m ore tests than the original 13 paragraph (e) o f th is section," right? 13 Ja g o one. 14 A. Correct. 14 Q. Right. No fiber release tests? 15 Q. So they set a perm issible exposure 15 A. No. 16 lim it o f 5 fibers per cu b ic centim eter. That's 16 Q. In fact, Jago's test w as not a 17 the sam e thing as a m illiliter, right? 17 foreseeable use fib er release test, w as it? 18 A. Yet. 18 A. His test w as looking at whether, 19 Q. So long as those fibers were longer 19 after subject to the steelm aking practice, 20 than 5 m icrons, right? 20 w hether there was any asbestos present, and his 21 A. Correct. 21 co n clu sio n w as no, th ere w a sn 't. 22 Q. Okay. So Foseco understood that 22 Q. Right. A nd w e 've talked ab o ut that. 23 this PEL would go into effect on July 7th, 23 A. Yes. 24 1972? 25 A. Yes, they did. 24 Q. But that was not a test for whether 25 or not there w as asbestos in the air. 60 (Pages 234 to 237) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITTGATION.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 238 Page 240 1 A. He, he was saying there w asn't any 1 A. - that it refers to. Correct. 2 asbestos. 2 Q. Okay. If the conditions apply, you 3 Q. He didn't test the air, though. He 3 have to put this label on with these words, 4 ju st tested the dust, right? 4 right? 5 A. He tested the rem ains of w hatever 5 A. Correct. 6 was left of the Profax board. 6 Q. Did OSHA ever say, hey, look, if you 7 Q. T he remains. 7 w a n t to be m ore d eta iled and say in addition w e 8 A. Correct. 8 know that som e o f the hazards are asbestosis, 9 Q. The, the dust, w hatever you w ant to 9 lung cancer, m esotheliom a, you can't do that? 10 call it, that's w h at he tested? 10 Did they? 11 A. Yes. 11 A. N ot th at I'm aw are of. 12 Q. Okay. He did not te st th e air in 12 Q. Did Foseco ever w rite to the 13 the area o f installation o f Foseco hot tops; 13 D epartm ent o f Labor and say, hey, look, we 14 did he? 14 actually have pretty detailed know ledge about 15 A. I've talked to Ted on, on this, and 15 asbestos hazards. W e w ould like to put on a 16 that w as not one area w hich I asked him about. 16 m ore detailed caution label? 17 So I can't m ake a, a com m ent. 17 A. No. 18 Q. Easier w ay to ask that question: 18 Q. Okay. W hen w as the first tim e -- 19 You're not aw are o f any evidence th at Foseco 19 you can set that aside. 20 ever conducted any tests o f th e air in th e area 20 W hen w as the first tim e that a 21 of or on a person doing the installation o f 21 caution label pertaining to asbestos ever 22 Foseco hot tops. 22 appeared on a Foseco hot top? 23 A. That's correct. 23 A. It w as - as I said earlier, I 24 Q. And similarly, you're not aware of 24 jo in e d in O cto b er 1972. A nd th e re w a s a label 25 any evidence that Foseco ever conducted any 25 on then. Page 239 Page 241 1 analysis o f the air around o r of a person doing 1 Q. Okay. Do you have a - do you have 2 the rem oval o f the used hot top from an ingot, 2 any pictures o f that label? 3 correct? 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. Sam e answer for the -- a blowout or 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Okay. Were those put on the CD? 5 A. Yes. 6 the com pressed air blow out of th at material, 7 right? 6 MR. INABINET: They should be on the 7 CD and it should be in w hatever you have. 8 A. Correct. 8 MR. PANATTER: Are they color? 9 Q. Then it says w hat the label 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10 specifications are, and it sa ys th e label has 11 to say caution, co n ta in s asbesto s fibers, avoid 12 creating dust, breathing asb esto s d u st m ay 10 MR. IN ABIN ET: I d o n 't know if there 11 is color on there. But I, I have a color 12 one som ew here. So -- 13 cause serio us bodily harm , right? 13 MR. PANATIER: All right. And maybe 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. T o your knowledge, does the OSHA 16 standard ever say you are not allow ed to 17 include m ore inform ation than is on th is label? 18 A. I, I don't think the content was 19 discussed. I'm trying to understand y o u r 20 question. 21 Q. Right. In other words, they say you 22 have to put th is label on it. It has to say 23 these words, right? 24 A. If the, if the conditions apply - 25 Q. Right. 14 w e can e-m ail afterwards. I'd just like a 15 copy if it's not on there. 16 MR. INABINET: Yeah, sure. 17 BY MR. PANATIER: 18 Q. All right. So the caution label 19 that ultim ately w ent on, when w as the first 20 tim e it, it w ent on? 21 A. I said it w as on on October when I 22 jo in ed in '72. A nd my, m y understanding is 23 these had just been placed on, so it could have 24 been weeks rather than months before. 25 Q. I think I saw - and we can verify HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM 61 (Pages 238 to 241) ANTHONY MONEY Page 242 Page 244 1 this, but I th in k I sa w in th e interrogatory 1 BY MR. PANATIER: 2 responses th a t th e y w e n t on in S e p te m b e r o f 2 Q. Let m e rephrase it. Okay? 3 72. 3 Sir, w as th ere anything legal, 4 A. And that makes sense, yes. 4 m oral, financial, w hatever, that w as preventing 5 Q. All right. Now, obviously they w ere 5 Foseco from placing an adequate and noticeable 6 required as of June o f 7 2 . You know that, 6 warning on its packages o f hot tops prior to 7 right? 7 72? 8 A. If it m et the conditions that they 8 MR. KADISH: Objection to form. 9 applied to. 9 T H E W ITNESS: Not that I'm aw are of. 10 Q. And Foseco felt that the warning 10 I know that the steel m ills knew w hat w as 11 needed to be placed on there. 11 in th e product. W e had the M SDS's w hich 12 A. No, w hat -- it w as exactly opposite. 12 were sent to the custom ers before that. 13 W h a t Foseco said w a s th o se, th o se asb esto s 13 BY M R. PA N A TIER : 14 fibers w ere bound and therefore there w as no 14 Q. Okay. I'm ju st going to object as 15 re q u irem en t to p u t a label on. 15 nonresponsive. 16 In fact, there w as -- apparently 16 A. Okay. 17 there w as a lot o f discussion on w hether w e 17 Q. T h e question is, w as there anything, 18 should put a label on or not. Ted Jago said 18 w hether it be m oral, legal, or financial, that 19 that, you know, m aybe w e should, m aybe w e 19 you're aw are of, any factor, th at would have 20 shouldn't. But to err on caution, it w as ~ 20 prevented Foseco from placing an adequate and 21 the decision he m ade was, look, we, w e should 21 noticeable w arning on its own asbestos products 22 put a label on every product containing 22 prior to 7 2 ? 23 asbestos. And that's w hat w as done. 23 A. No. 24 Q. Okay. So Foseco decided to put a 24 MR. KADISH: Sam e objection. Asked 25 label on. That.w as th e O SH A-required label, 25 and answered. Page 243 Page 245 1 right? 1 (Money Deposition Exhibit No. 28 2 A. It w as an OSHA-required label, 2 was marked for identification.) 3 correct. 3 BY MR. PANATIER: 4 Q. Okay. Even though they didn't feel 4 Q. All right. I'm handing you w hat has 5 that OSHA required it for their product? 5 been marked Exhibit 28. Have you seen that 6 A. Correct. 6 before? 7 Q. And, o f course, the only way to know 7 A. Yes. 8 w hether o r not O SHA required it is to know 8 Q. This is a m em o from Mr. Jago to a 9 w hether o r not in the foreseeable use o f the 9 wide range of individuals, correct? 10 product asbestos fibers w ere released in excess 10 A. Yes. 11 o f the PEL, correct? 11 Q. June 28th, 1972, so ju st a couple 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. And we've already established that 14 no testing w as done to actually determ ine 12 w eeks after th e O S H A regulation that w e looked 13 at dated Ju n e 7th, 7 2 . H e says, "Subject: 14 Low health hazard, hot tops." 15 w h eth er o r not th a t w a s th e case? 15 Do you see that? 16 A. That's, that's true. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Okay. There was nothing preventing 17 Q. It says, "It is essential to our 18 Foseco fro m placing an adequa te and noticeable 18 econom ic survival that w e be in a position to 19 warning label on its hot top products prior to 19 offer an asbestos-free and low hazard 20 1972; was there? 21 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 22 THE W ITNESS: Are you talking about 20 substitutes for Profax and Proflex as a 21 standard production item should the need 22 arise." 23 w as there a legal requirem ent? Is that the 24 question? 25 23 Sir, w e can take from that that at 24 this tim e Foseco did not have an asbestos-free 25 or low hazard substitute for Profax or Proflex 62 (Pages 242 to 245) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 246 Page 248 1 as a standard production item at this tim e, 1 needed - both needed to be addressed. 2 correct? 2 Q. T o be clear, he doesn't say in order 3 A. That's correct. 3 to ensure that w e are not passing along any 4 Q. Okay. And he says it's key to -- 4 health risks to end users, we need an asbestos 5 it's essential to our econom ic survival. 5 substitute. He says in ord er for ou r own 6 Right? 6 econom ic survival, w e need to offer a low 7 A. Yes. 7 hazard or an asbestos-free substitute, correct? 8 Q. And w e've already talked about how 8 A. I'm , I'm not su re w hat his intention 9 individuals within Foseco have cited to the 9 is there. I know that there w as concern about 10 fact that they w ere selling approxim ately $12 10 th e - o u r p ro gress and co m m it w ith our 11 m illion w orth o f this product each year, right? 11 asb e sto s-free program s. 12 A. No, it said $12 m illion o f hot top 12 Q. He doesn't talk about health o f the 13 products, w hich included the exotherm ic powder. 13 end user. 14 Q. It included three products. It 14 A. He doesn't, no. 15 included Profax, Proflex, and th e powder, 15 Q. He talks about the econom ic survival 16 right? 16 o f Foseco Inc. 17 A. Correct. 17 MR. KADISH: Objection; asked and 18 Q. Okay. They were concerned about the 18 answered. 19 powder from the silica angle. 19 THE WITNESS: Correct. 20 A. No. 20 MR. PA N A H ER : All right. You can 21 Q. They w ere not? 21 set that aside. 22 A. No. 22. This next one will be Exhibit 23 Q. Okay. Did it have any silica in it? 23 29. 24 A. No. 24 (M oney Deposition Exhibit No. 29 25 Q. All right. It says, "The laboratory 25 was marked for identification.) Page 247 Page 249 1 here in Canada and at FIL" -- and that's Foseco 1 BY MR. PANATIER: 2 International? 2 Q. All right, sir. So this is a m emo 3 A. Correct. 3 from Mr. Jago to Dr. Phoenix. Do you see that? 4 Q. -- "have been working very hard to 4 A. Yes. 5 produce satisfactory products. O ur need now is 5 Q. T h is is regarding the health hazard 6 for full-scale tests at the earliest possible 6 caution labels for asbestos products, right? 7 m om ent o f asbestos-free products followed 7 A. Yes. 8 before the end of the year by silica-free 8 Q. July 14th, '12, true? 9 products." 9 A. Yes. 10 Did I read that right? 10 Q. Okay. He says, "The regulations as 11 A. Yes. 11 published 7 Ju n e m ake it m andatory to label all 12 Q. Okay. At this tim e do you know 12 products w hich contain asbestos as follow s," 13 whether or not Mr. Jago had his individual -- 13 and he puts the caution label, right? 14 his full-tim e individual for any period o f six 14 A. Correct. 15 months? 15 Q. Now, he actually cites to the 16 A. I, I don't know for sure, but I 16 regulations published 7th of June, which you 17 believe he did get the person, yes. 17 and I looked at, correct? 18 Q. Okay. He says the need for the 18 A. Yes. 19 asbestos substitutes is econom ic. He doesn't 19 Q. He says, "This regulate" -- "This 20 talk about the health effects being the reason 20 label is required unless the fiber has been 21 to develop the asbestos-free substitutes, 21 modified by a bonding agent so that during the 22 correct? 22 foreseeable" -- and, again, there's som e big 23 A. W ell, he's m entioning lower hazard 23 blots of ink or som ething on here, so w e're not 24 hot tops, yes, and he is ta lkin g ab o ut th at in 24 going to be able to see all o f it, but I 25 order to - for the business to continue, w e 25 believe it's "foreseeable future use, handling, HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGAnON.COM 63 (Pages 246 to 249) ANTHONY MONEY Page 250 Page 252 1 storage, disposal, processing, or 1 A. Yes. 2 transportation. No airborne" -- som ething -- 2 Q. He acknow ledges that he got a letter 3 "o f asbestos fiber in excess o f th e exposure 3 from Mr. Jago of May 24th where he talked about 4 lim it prescribed will be released." 4 the asbestos content of Profax 31 and Proflex 5 Is that about right? 5 G3, true? 6 A. That's correct. 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. "This regulation is much tighter 7 Q. T h e n in th e h ighlighted paragraph he 8 than w as published or w e expected. Originally, 8 says, "You indicate that after heating to 2,000 9 drafts stated that the products containing less 9 degrees Fahrenheit the residual asbestos fiber 10 than 5 percent w ould not have to be labeled." 10 con ten t w ill be below 2 percent in the case of 11 Is that w hat you w ere referring to 11 Profax and belo w 5 percent in th e ca se o f 12 before? 12 Proflex G3 and th at the form er value w as well 13 A. W ell, it -- this isn't, th is isn't 13 w ithin O SH A lim its. A s you are no doubt aw are, 14 the m em o or letter that I said w here the 14 OSHA prom ulgated a perm anent health standard 15 5 percent cam e. T h a t w as from the O SH A 15 fo r asbestos dust, w hich w as published in th e 16 Reporter. And that's w h ere Jago got this 16 Federal R egister Ju ne 7th, '72. No m ention is 17 5 percent from . 17 m ade in the standard as far as I can observe 18 Q. Right. They, they learned since 18 about any delineation betw een the safe and 19 then, o f course, w hen it cam e out -- 19 hazard ou s p ercenta ge o f asb esto s in m aterial. 20 A. Yes. 20 As a m atter o f fact, asbestos fibers are 21 Q. -- th a t it d id n 't ap p ly to 21 defined as any asbestos which is longer than 5 22 percentage, it w as how m uch asbestos w as in the 22 m icrons in size. A nd under the section on 23 air. 23 labeling, cautionary labels m ust be affixed to 24 A. Correct. 24 all raw m aterials and products containing 25 Q. He says, "In that w e know that dust 25 asbestos fibers unless the fibers have been Page 251 Page 253 1 may be form ed during the use of this product, I 1 modified by a bonding agent, coating, binder, 2 believe w e should proceed with the application 2 or other m aterial so that during any reasonably 3 o f labels to all Profax and Proflex custom ers 3 - reasonable foreseeable use airborne 4 as soon as possible." 4 co n cen tra tio ns in each o f the exposure lim its 5 And that's w hat Jago says, right? 5 will not be released." 6 A. Yes. 6 And you and I w ent through th at in 7 Q. At no time does Mr. Jago say this 7 the regulation. W e saw that exact statement, 8 d u st I'm talking ab o u t has zero asbesto s in it 8 correct? 9 because I did a test; does he? 9 A. W e saw a statement. I can't 10 A. No, he does not. 10 rem em ber th e exact word in there. 11 Q. Okay. He actually says w e should go 11 Q. It certainly -- w hat he is 12 ahead and put labels on it based on the 12 recounting here as the requirem ents is no 13 regulation being m uch tighter than w e thought, 13 d ifferen t than w h a t w e read. 14 right? 14 A. That's correct. 15 A. Correct. 15 Q. Okay. "Therefore, the use of your 16 Q. Okay. You can set th at aside, sir. 16 two indicated hot tops will require that the 17 This will be Exhibit 30. 17 dust exposure of the w orkers utilizing these 18 (Money Deposition Exhibit No. 30 18 m ust be periodically determ ined." 19 w as marked for identification.) 19 To this date, Foseco never conducted 20 BY MR. PANATIER: 20 such a determ ination, correct? 21 Q. All right. Sir, have you seen this 21 A. Correct. 22 before? 22 Q. And, in fact, never did. 23 A. Yes. 23 A. Never did, no. 24 Q. T h is is a com m unication from United 24 Q. "T his asbestos standard is, in my 25 States Steel to Mr. Jago at Foseco, right? 25 opinion, so restrictive that it will probably 64 (Pages 250 to 253) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLinGATION.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 254 Page 256 1 re sult in the su b stitu tio n o f a sb e sto s in 1 Q. "Pre-m ix co n ta in s asb esto s fib er in 2 variou s products in w hich it is today used." 2 unbonded condition, and a little dust is 3 And th at w as written to Mr. Jago, 3 created w hen the product is dum ped onto the 4 right? 4 m ixing tank and potentially could be classified 5 A. Correct. 5 as a hazardous m aterial." 6 Q. The label that ultim ately w ent on 6 W hat's Prem ix? 7 the products w ent on about tw o m onths later. 7 A. Prem ix is a slurry Profax that w as 8 A. Correct. 8 sold to one customer. 9 Q. All right. Thank you. 9 Q. Okay. W hich custom er? 10 Next w ill be Exhibit 31. 10 A. Bethlehem Johnstown. 11 (M oney Deposition Exhibit No. 31 11 Q. So he says, "It seem s the caution 12 was m arked for identification.) 12 label," and he quotes it again, "will be needed 13 BY MR. PANATIER: 13 on Proflex and Prem ix but not on Profax." 14 Q. Sir> th a t's a Foseco m em o from 14 A. That's w hat he said, yes. 15 Mr. Jago to R.T. Callahan, right? 15 Q. All right. "I, therefore, recom m end 16 A. Yes. 16 th at you obtain stick-on labels for 17 Q. W ho is Callahan? 17 a p p lica tio n s -- a p p lica tio n to all P roflex and 18 A. H e w a s on e o f th e e n g in e e rs in th e 18 Prem ix boxes," and he says w hat the label 19 plant. 19 should look like. 20 Q. Okay. This is ju st about tw o w eeks 20 M y question is, he has now to ld th e 21 after th e last letter. It's dated A ugust 1st, 21 folks at Foseco don't put a label on Profax, 22 1972, subject, caution labels for asbestos 22 correct? 23 containing products. 23 A. Correct. 24 And w h a t Jago says is, "It is my 24 Q. Did a label ever go on Profax? 25 considered opinion that our existing 25 A. Yes. Page 255 Page 257 1 form ulation o f Profax 31 does not constitute 1 Q. When? 2 any hazard to users in the - as the asbestos 2 A. Sam e as it w ent on the others. 3 fib e r is locked into place by phenolic resin. 3 Q. So a month or so later? 4 In norm al operation dust is not generated 4 A. Yeah. 5 during use except after the board has been 5 Q. Did he change -- 6 subjected to sufficient high tem perature to 6 A. No, no. I'm sorry. A month or so 7 alter the crystalline structure o f the fiber 7 later. Later than the memo. 8 and change its toxic properties." 8 Q. That's correct. 9 Now, you've talked about that being 9 A. Correct. 10 his belief, correct? 10 Q. Right. In Septem ber som etim e? 11 A. Yes. 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. Okay. "Proflex, however, currently 12 Q. So did Mr. Jago change his mind or 13 contains a higher proportion o f asbestos than 13 did so m eo n e change it for him ? 14 Profax and th e degree o f bonding is less so 14 A. No, Jago changed his mind. 15 dusty" - "less so, dusting during use may 15 Q. Okay. You can set that aside, sir. 16 possibly be encountered and, therefore, the 16 All right. This one is going to be 17 product could possibly be regarded as 17 E xhibit 33. 18 potentially hazardous." 18 MR. INABINET: 32. 19 So he's now distinguishing between 19 MS. REPORTER: Yes, 32. 20 Proflex and Profax because there's a little bit 20 MR. PANATIER: Whatever. 32. New 21 m ore asbestos in Proflex, correct? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. Did he ever do this dusting test on 21 sticker. There you go. 22 (M oney Deposition Exhibit No. 32 23 w as marked for identification.) 24 Proflex? 24 MR. INABINET: Is there supposed to 25 A. No. 25 be som ething highlighted here, Chris? HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLmGATION.COM 65 (Pages 254 to 257) ANTHONY MONEY Page 258 Page 260 1 MR. PANATIER: No. 1 already talked about had already elim inated 2 BY MR. PANATIER: 2 asbestos. 3 Q. All right. Sir, do you know whose 3 A. Some had, y e s.. 4 signature that is? 4 Q. Right. And by now, w e're talking 5 A. Yes, John Chapel. 5 1973, there are probably others, not just 6 Q. All right. W ho is Mr. Chapel? 6 Australia, right? 7 A. He w as another technical person at 7 A. Correct. 8 FIL. 8 Q. Have you ever seen a mem o where 9 Q. Okay. So this is th e international 9 Australia cam e back and said the w heat flour 10 Foseco? 10 stuff didn't w ork? 11 A. Yes. 11 A. I don't believe so, no. 12 Q. Okay. Did this go to everybody? 12 Q. Okay. All right. The next 13 A. Yes. 13 paragraph, sir. "Total or partial replacem ent 14 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 14 m ay not be possible w ith o u t som e in crease in 15 BY MR. PAN ATIER : 15 cost, eith er d u e to higher RM co sts o r loss in 16 Q. This is dated 2nd February 1973, 16 efficiency." 17 right -- o r 26th February 7 3 ? 17 W hat's RM? 18 A. Correct. 18 A. Raw m aterial. 19 Q. It is entitled "Rem oval o f silica 19 Q. Okay. So again, w e're seeing the 20 and asbestos from Foseco insulating products." 20 factor o f cost com e in w ith replacem ent, right, 21 And it says, "T here is no d ou b t o f th e grow ing 21 in evaluating replacem ent? 22 universal aw areness by both works or public 22 A. That's correct. 23 health authorities and trade unions o f the 23 Q. Okay. The next paragraph. Go ahead 24 potential health hazards caused by these 24 and go to the next paragraph. "Rather than 25 m aterials, both o f w hich have been and still 25 w ait until legislation, I recom m end that all Page 259 Page 261 1 are w idely used in Foseco insulating products. 1 operating com panies face up to the situation 2 Because of their physical properties and 2 and begin im m ediately developm ent program s for 3 cost-effectiveness, Foseco has developed their 3 the selective removal o f both silica and 4 use to the stage where they have brought 4 asbestos." 5 considerable econom ic benefits to the steel 5 Did -- Mr. Chapel, w as he som eone 6 maker." 6 w ho could tell the other com panies w hat to do 7 Som e operating -- this is -- yours 7 or truly ju st recom m end it? 8 is not highlighted, so I'm going to tell you 8 A. He was, he was a technical person 9 w here it is. The next paragraph starting with 9 and he was making statem ents. He w as not - he 10 "How ever," do you see that? 10 had no authority over anything. 11 A. Yes. 11 Q. Okay. Last paragraph. "When 12 Q. It says, "However, the clim ate of 12 satisfactory alternative form ulations have been 13 public opinion is changing and there is 13 developed, they can be locked aw ay until such 14 co nsiderable pressu re on industry in general o f 14 tim e as legislation declares their need." 15 w hich steelm aking is a m ajor part to reduce 15 So w hat he's saying in that sentence 16 pollution and health hazards in all form s. The 16 is even - w e m ay even develop satisfactory 17 legislative pressure and perm issible levels 17 alternatives that work. 18 will vary from country to country. Som e 18 A. That's what he says. 19 operating com panies have already had to 19 Q. And we can just lock them away until 20 elim inate either or both silica and asbestos or 20 legislation forces us to use them, right? 21 reduce them to a m inim al level. W e m ust assum e 22 that sooner or later this will be a universal 23 requirem ent." 21 MR. KADISH: Objection; speculation. 22 THE W ITNESS: That's, that's what he 23 says. And I, I read that when I first saw 24 So som e o f the different com panies 24 it, and I talked to Jago and he said it w as 25 within the Foseco fam ily o f com panies we've 25 a nonsense memo. Here we are working to 66 (Pages 258 to 261) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITEGATION.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 262 Page 264 1 try to get asbestos-free; and we've got 1 or doctors are involved, right? 2 som e technical guy in the center saying if 2 A. T hat's w hat he's saying. But, 3 w e get form ulations that w ork we should 3 again, it's a technical person trying to make 4 lock them away. He said it was a 4 com m ents on areas w hich are not his expertise, 5 ridiculous statem ent to make. And 5 safety, com m ercial. It w as a nonsense memo. 6 obviously w e did not pay heed to that. 6 It w as a nonsense comment. 7 BY MR. PANATTER: 7 Q. It w as to a lot o f people. W e can't 8 Q. W hat w as the date of the memo that 8 see everything up here, but it looks like it 9 Mr. Jago sent out saying that w hat Mr. Chapel 9 says m anaging directors, som ething, something, 10 said w as not to be followed or not to be given 10 all of com pany, plus regional directors. 11 any credit? 11 Right? 12 A. There w as no m em o. I ju st talked to 12 A. Correct. 13 T e d on it. 13 Q. It w ent to a lot of people, right? 14 Q. Right. So you and Ted shared a 14 A. It w ent to a widespread around the 15 m om ent about w hat he said, right? 15 Foseco w orld, but it probably w ouldn't go to -- 16 A. Right. 16 let m e see. 20 people probably it w ent to. 17 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 17 Q. Okay. Did - to your knowledge, did 18 BY MR. PANATTER: 18 a n y o f th o se 20 people say th a t is not our 19 Q. There w as no corporate response to 19 com pany attitude tow ards this issue? 20 this w here they said, hey, w hat you're saying 20 A. Jago. 21 is not a reasonable position to take? 21 Q. Said it to you? 22 A. W e did not, no. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. You agree that's not a reasonable 23 Q. That's all? 24 position to take? 24 A. T hat's all, yes. 25 A. It definitely isn't. 25 Q. O kay. You can set it aside, sir. Page 263 Page 265 1 Q. But Mr. Chapel certainly felt 1 Okay. T h is one is going to be 2 com fortable w riting that, right? 2 Exhibit 33. 3 MR. KADISH: Objection; form . 3 (M oney Deposition Exhibit No. 33 4 TH E W ITNESS: He was a technical 4 was marked for identification.) 5 person in, in FIL. 5 MR. PANATIER: You know, I don't 6 BY MR. PANATTER: 6 even have to go through that one. W e can 7 Q. A re you aware of any - I'm not just 7 if you want. 8 talking about Mr. Jago now. I'm talking about 9 anybody at Foseco, Inc., in the U.S. that said 8 MR. INABINET: Let m e read it first. 9 MR. PANATIER: But I can save time. 10 eith er I agree with w hat Mr. Chapel is saying, 10 MR. IN ABIN ET: I know w hy I w a n t it. 11 w e need to set it aside until w e're forced to 11 Do you? 12 do it o r I totally disagree with w hat 12 MR. PANATIER: Id o . 13 Mr. Chapel said. 13 MR. INABINET: So we're still on 33? 14 A. T h e on ly d ocum ents I'v e seen and the 14 MR. PANATIER: 33, yeah. I'm just 15 only conversation is w hat I had with Ted Jago 16 once I read this memo. 17 Q. Okay. He says, "On the other hand, 18 insulators which do not contain either silica 15 going to pull som e o f these remaining ones 16 and not use them. 17 BY MR. PANATTER: 18 Q. Sir, is this the Foseco, Inc., memo 19 or asbestos could be an effective weapon 19 you've seen before? 20 against price-cutting com petition, particularly 21 if union officials and w ork doctors are made 22 aware that such products exist." 23 So he's saying an advantage on the 24 other hand to asbestos or silica-free products 25 could be to undercut the com petition if unions 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. T h is is from Mike W ood, correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. W ho is that? 24 A. He was the plant manager of 25 Cleveland. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM 67 (Pages 262 to 265) ANTHONY MONEY Page 266 Page 268 1 Q. All right. It says, "A num ber of 1 BY MR. PANATIER: 2 em ployees have expressed a concern over their 2 Q. In fact, every tim e - and w e're at 3 reaction to the new raw m aterial, RMX3562." Is 3 1973 now. W e've gone over eight or nine years 4 that -- w h at is it? 4 worth of stuff. Every tim e they talk about the 5 A. It's w ollaston ite. 5 need for a substitute, it has every tim e been 6 Q. W ollastonite? 6 related to cost and the survival o f the 7 A. Yes. 7 company. It has never once addressed the 8 Q. Okay. "There are som e things about 8 health of the end user, correct? 9 this m aterial I feel you should know. O SHA has 9 MR. KADISH: Objection; form . 10 recently advised Am erican industry th at it m ust 10 THE WITNESS: On the docum ents we've 11 find su b stitu tes fo r a sbesto s. A sb esto s is a 11 looked at, you're probably correct. 12 w idely-used m aterial that has been the backbone 12 BY MR. PANATIER: 13 of m any Foseco products for years. Finding an 13 Q. Okay. So you can set that aside. 14 adequate substitute has been a top priority at 14 All right. This will be Exhibit 34. 15 Foseco. T h e very fu tu re o f th e co m pa n y d epends 15 (Money Deposition Exhibit No. 34 16 on our success in accom plishing this." 16 w as marked for identification.) 17 Again, they're talking about com pany 17 BY MR. PANATIER: 18 w elfare as the ch ief reason to find an adequate 18 Q. Sir, this is a confidential m em o 19 substitute, correct? 19 from Foseco, July 20, 1973, correct? 20 MR. KADISH: Objection to form . 20 A. Correct. 21 THE W ITNESS: He m entions that, but 21 Q. Have you seen this before? 22 he's also - it's, it's not ju st that. 22 A. Yes. 23 BY MR. PANATIER: 23 Q. All right. It says, "M inutes o f a 24 Q. Right. I m ean, m aybe there's 24 m eeting, update o f progress on nonasbestos 25 som ething in his head he didn't put dow n on 25 program ," from July 18th, 1973. Page 267 Page 269 1 paper, right? 1 And it says, first paragraph, "This 2 MR. KADISH: Objection; speculation. 2 m eeting was called to discuss and com m unicate 3 BY MR. PANATIER: 3 the current situation of asbestos-free Profax 4 Q. Because w hat he writes on the paper 4 and Proflex production?" 5 is finding an adequate substitute is w hat the 5 It says the agenda is indicated by 6 future of the company depends on, correct? 6 the heading shown. "1," and it's highlighted, 7 MR. KADISH: Objection; asked and 7 "OSHA and custom er requirem ents and Foseco 8 answered. 8 com m itm ents. HDS, now that looks like H.D. 9 THE W ITNESS: He's saying finding an 9 Shephard? 10 adequate substitute has been a top priority 10 A. Correct. 11 and then he makes a separate comment. 11 Q. W ho's he? 12 This, this very future -- the very future 12 A. Harry Shephard. He was one of the 13 o f th e com pany d epends on the success in 13 steel m ill people. 14 accom plishing this. 14 Q. W hich one o f the steel mill people 15 BY MR. PANATIER: 15 was he? 16 Q. Finding a substitute, right? 16 A. He was really responsible for 17 A. Correct. 17 marketing. 18 Q. He doesn't say finding an adequate 18 Q. He was a marketing guy? 19 su b stitu te has been a top priority at Foseco so 19 A. Yes. 20 we don't endanger the users of our products, 20 Q. So he says, 'T h e problem with our 21 does he? 21 present asbestos bearing board is in the steel 22 MR. KADISH: Objection to form. 22 mill stripping and mold cleaning areas w here 23 THE W ITNESS: He did not say that, 23 particles blow into the air due to OSHA 24 no. 24 regulations on the particle count." 25 25 So he's talking about really Phase 68 (Pages 266 to 269) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 270 Page 272 1 II o f the product really. The boards have been 1 the particles blow into the air after the hot 2 put in, th e m old's been poured, and now he's 2 tops are being cleaned o ff the ingot in the 3 talking about cleaning out the mold, right? 3 m old, right? 4 A. Yes, he is. 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. So he's talking ab o ut th ere is -- he 5 Q. Okay. Is he talking about som e 6 said the problem with our present asbestos 6 other particle other than asbestos there? 7 bearing board is on that end o f the process due 7 A. No, not that I'm aw are of. 8 to OSHA regulations on the particle count, 8 Q. He's, he's talking about asbestos, 9 true? 9 right? 10 A. That's correct. 10 MR. KADISH: Objection to form. 11 Q. W e know that OSHA regulations on the 11 T H E W ITNESS: Well, I'm assum ing he 12 particle count at this tim e are - there's a 12 does because the m eeting is on nonasbestos 13 PEL of 5 fibers per cubic centim eter, correct? 13 program s. So although he doesn't 14 A. Correct. 14 specifically m ention that in one, I read it 15 Q. So he's saying they have a problem 15 as asbestos. 16 w ith the OSHA asbestos regulation, right? 16 BY MR. PANATIER: 17 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 17 Q. All right. So on the next page, I 18 TH E W ITNESS: Sorry. W ill you 18 ju st had a question about this. It says at 19 repeat that again? 19 Copperw eld. W here is that? 20 BY MR. PANATIER: 20 A. It's a - it's a steel mill 21 Q. He's saying they have a problem on 21 cu sto m e r. I believe it's in Ohio. 22 the back end o f the procedure w here the boards 22 Q. Okay. "At Copperweld w e are 23 are rem oved w ith excess asbestos being in the 23 supplying an asbestos-free product. But as 24 air, correct? 24 w ith all the products, there could be som e 25 MR. KADISH: Sam e objection. 25 asbestos-containing boards due to accidental Page 271 Page 273 1 T H E W ITNESS: No. He's, he's saying 1 contam ination." 2 that there, there could be a problem with 2 What does that mean? 3 the particles after, after stripping. 3 A. It m eans that at this tim e fram e we 4 BY MR. PANATIER: 4 had som e recipes that we were trying 5 Q. W ell, let's look at his words. He 5 asbestos-free and some, and som e not. But 6 d o e sn 't say the possible problem , right? 6 w hat, w hat happened on the floor is that when 7 MR. KADISH: Objection; form . 7 w e w ere developing products that did not form 8 TH E W ITNESS: He's saying that there 8 correctly before going through the oven or - 9 m ay be particles in the air and there's 9 through the oven, which, which were not 10 regulations that dictate the count. 10 w orking, they would pick those boards up and 11 BY MR. PANATIER: 11 th ey w ould put one or tw o in the pulper w hen 12 Q. W ell, does, does -- does the word 12 they w ere mixing the sam e recipe. 13 "m ay" appear in that sentence? 13 And what we made sure was or tried 14 A. No. 14 to m ake sure is that they did not put those one 15 Q. Does the phrase "maybe"? 15 o r tw o boards in the m ix if it w a s an 16 A. No. 16 asbestos-free recipe with som ething that may 17 Q. Does "possible" appear? 17 have contained, contained som e of the low 18 A. No. 18 asbestos board. Now, we placed it as best we 19 Q. Does "potential" appear? 19 could. Did it happen? I don't know. Is there 20 A. No. 20 a possibility? Yes. 21 Q. No. He says "the problem ," right? 21 Q. Okay. W hat he's saying is it's 22 A. He's saying that the problem is 22 possible that som e of those asbestos boards 23 w here particles blow into the air, and he says 23 could have been picked up and then put into the 24 there's OSHA regulations governing that. 24 asbestos-free pulper? 25 Q. Right. On the particle count where 25 A. Yes. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM 69 (Pages 270 to 273) ANTHONY MONEY Page 274 Page 276 1 Q. And so the products could have ended 1 slurry in a w e t form o r the shape in a w et 2 up with som e, som e asbestos? 2 form would be - keep its integrity as far 3 A. A minim al amount, correct. 3 as a shape before it got through the oven. 4 Q. Okay. He also says, "or deliberate 4 So they could have just picked those up and 5 dilution with Profax 31 to solve forming 5 threw them back in. 6 problem s." W hat does that mean? 6 BY MR. PANATIER: 7 A. I'm not sure w hat he means. 7 Q. Right. T o help w ith the form ing, 8 Q. W ell, deliberate m eans on purpose, 8 they m ight have added som e asbestos boards. 9 right? 9 A. Or, or asbestos in -- asbestos- 10 A. Yes. 10 containing pro du ct in th e green state. 11 Q. Profax 31 is asbestos-containing, 11 Q. Right. Either way, he certainly 12 right? 12 know s o f th e reason w h y th ey w ould add asb esto s 13 A. I'm not sure w hether it w as or not 13 because o f a specific problem , a form ing 14 then. I w ould guess from this it is, yes. 14 problem , right? 15 Q. Okay. W hat he's saying is there's 15 A. Correct. 16 tw o w ays asbestos m ay end up in a -- w h at is 16 Q. And he has certainly contem plated or 17 supposed to be an asbestos-free product. One 17 seen it done d eliberately, co rrect? 18 is if an asbestos board is accidentally picked 18 A. No, I don't, I don't know w hether he 19 up and put into the pulper. 19 has or not. He says there could be a 20 A. Correct. 20 possibility. I don't believe he's saying that. 21 Q. T h e other w ay is it's done on 21 Q. This, this Foseco em ployee is 22 purpose. 22 allowing for the possibility that another 23 A. It would be saying that they may 23 Foseco em ployee o r em ployee has deliberately 24 have tried som e very sm all am ounts to see if it 24 added asbestos to w h a t Is su p p o sed to be an 25 would work. 25 asbestos-free mix, correct? Page 275 Page 277 1 Q. And then shipped them out? 1 MR. KADISH: Objection; asked and 2 A. I d on't know w h eth e r w e did o r not. 2 answered. 3 It's w hether they worked. 3 THE W ITNESS: A small amount, yes. 4 Q. W ell, he's talking about at 4 BY MR. PANATIER: 5 Copperweld, a specific custom er of Foseco, 5 Q. Okay. Did he say how much? 6 right? 6 A. No. 7 A. Yes. 7 Q. You said a sm all amount, right? 8 Q. And he says that as with ail the 8 A. Yeah, because if it w as one board. 9 products, there could be som e asbestos- 9 for example, they threw into the m ix and let's 10 containing boards th a t a re supposed to be 10 supposed it had 2 percent asbestos, it w ould be 11 asbesto s-free due to either accident o r o u r ow n 11 very m inim al am ount. 12 deliberate addition o f asbestos. 12 Q. If it w as one board. W hat if it was 13 A. Yeah, that's w hat he's saying. And 13 20 boards? 14 he didn't say it did happen. H e's saying it 14 A. But then it w ouldn't w o rk in the, in 15 could happen. So it's really a w arning, w e 15 the pulper. 16 better be careful, which w e trying to be. 16 Q. Okay. W hat about 10 boards? 17 Q. W ell, he wouldn't have thought, 17 A. No. 18 would he, to include the option that som eone 18 Q. But he doesn't say how many, does 19 did it on purpose unless he knew that it had 19 he? 20 happened in the past, correct? 20 A. No. 21 MR. KADISH: Objection; form; 21 Q. Okay. This is going to be Exhibit 22 speculation. 22 35. 23 THE W ITNESS: No, it could be that 23 (Money Deposition Exhibit No. 35 24 the asbestos-free for this account did not 24 was marked for identification.) 25 form good enough to, to -- so that the 25 70 (Pages 274 to 277) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 278 Page 280 1 BY MR. PANATIER: 1 BY MR. PANATIER: 2 Q. Sir, this is a m em o from A u gust 2 Q. Okay. Sir, I've handed you Exhibit 3 14th, 1973? 3 36. That's an O ctober 12, 1973, m em o from 4 A. Yes. 4 Brian McConnell to Geoff Fenton, right? 5 Q. It's a Foseco, Inc., m em o. It is 5 A. Yes. 6 from W .C. Fletcher? 6 Q. W ho is Brian M cConnell? 7 A. Yes. 7 A. He w as one of our salesm an. 8 Q. It says corporate quality control. 8 Q. All right. He's talking about the 9 Is that -- was he the head of that? 9 USS Fairless, w hich is a Navy ship, right? 10 A. Yes. 10 A. No. 11 Q. Okay. Let me ju st skip to the 11 Q. W h a t is it? I don't know w h at it 12 second highlight. 12 is. 13 A. Okay. 13 A. It's U.S. Steel. 14 Q. It says, "It should be noted that 14 Q. Oh. Oh. Okay. U.S. Steel. W hat's 15 the starch binder product." W hat, w hat was 15 a 699 ring? 16 that? 16 A. It is a design for one o f their 17 A. The starch was a product w e were 17 ingots. 18 trying to use in the nonasbestos recipes as a 18 Q. So it's basically hot top ring? 19 binder. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Okay. "It should be noted that the 20 Q. The whole tim e I w as like w hat are 21 starch binder product is to take priority over 21 they doing with a hot top on a ship. Again, 22 th e nonasbestos program at the present time. 22 I'm a lawyer, not an industrialist. Okay. 23 But since any proposed engineering changes 23 Sir, w hat it says here is, "Fairless 24 require tim e for design and ordering o f 24 keeps th row in g barbs a t m e th a t Ferro is 25 equipm ent, this discussion is relevant 25 supplying a com pletely asbestos-free ring. All Page 279 Page 281 1 im m ediately to enable such changes to be 1 of their operating personnel appear to be aware 2 planned." 2 of the fact that our ring is not asbestos-free 3 So it, it looks like there w as a 3 and hint that we could loss som e business for 4 starch binder product that put the nonasbestos 4 it. A t the m om ent I believe this to be 5 program on hold for at least som e tem porary 5 friendly sparring. However, as I indicated 6 time, correct? 6 som e tim e ago, it could becom e serious and cost 7 A. That's correct. And the reason 7 us business." 8 being is that the binder in the Profax board 8 Did I read that right? 9 w ere a liquid resin, and there w as problem s 9 A. Yes. 10 w ith the liquid resin suppliers. D o n't ask m e 10 Q. "Please advise me what our timetable 11 w hat the problem s were. But w e could not get 11 is to develop an asbestos-free ring for 12 liquid resin. 12 Fairless." 13 So what we had to do was go to a 13 Do you know when they provided an 14 powdered resin and we also tried starch. And 14 asbestos-free ring for Fairless? 15 so it w as -- it w as of very little consequence 15 A. I, I -- I do not o ff the top of my 16 going through the asbestos-free program when we 16 head, no. 17 had other significant variations in som e o f the 17 Q. Okay. But this man - I guess he's 18 recipe form ulations. So that's why the starch 19 had a priority. 18 a salesperson? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. I understand. But it w as a reason 21 to set the nonasbestos program aside at least 22 for that period of time? 20 Q. He w as concerned about, again, a 21 need for an asbestos-free ring because it would 22 be costing them business otherwise, correct? 23 A. It was. 24 (Deposition Exhibit No. 36 25 was marked for identification.) 23 A. Because the com petitor had an 24 asbestos-free ring. 25 Q. This will be Exhibit 37. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITlGATION.COM 71 (Pages 278 to 281) ANTHONY MONEY Page 282 Page 284 1 (Money Deposition Exhibit No. 37 1 m ezzanine, at the pulpers -- at the pulpers 2 was m arked for identification.) 2 them selves, during charging, and at the 3 BY MR. PANATIER: 3 refinishing stage of packing. The danger also 4 Q. Have you seen that before, sir? 4 exists for those em ployees sweeping or 5 A. Yes. 5 vacuum ing th e floors in those areas." 6 Q. That's dated July 24th, 1974, Foseco 6 R ig h t? 7 m em o. It is to production - w h at is that? 7 A. Yes. 8 Superintendent? 8 Q. A t this tim e in 1974, w as Foseco 9 A. Yes. 9 still devoting greater energy to protecting its 10 Q. And also supervisors from the plant 10 em ployees than it w as in putting o u t a safe 11 safety co m m ittee. T h is is an instruction on 11 product? 12 how to train new em ployees on asbestos, 12 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 13 correct? 13 TH E W ITNESS: I don't know how to 14 A. It's, it's fo r training em ployees. 14 answ er your question. I think I've 15 I don't know w h eth e r it's ju s t new em ployees. 15 answered that before. They, they are 16 Q. All right. It says - 16 taking w hatever reasonable steps they could 17 A. I m ay need to read it all, but... 17 based on the inform ation available at the 18 Q. Okay. If you feel you need to, let 18 tim e . 19 me know. W e're going to ta lk about ju st page 19 BY MR. PANATIER: 20 1. Okay? 20 Q. O kay. So th e q uestion is, w e re th ey 21 A. That's fine. You, you carry on. 21 putting greater effort into protecting their 22 Q. Okay. Thank you. 22 em ployees at this tim e in the m id-'70s than 23 It says, "All new em ployees m ust be 23 they w ere putting out a safe product for end 24 instructed as to the dangers of breathing 24 users? 25 airbo rne asb esto s fib e r and th e locations in 25 MR. KADISH: Sam e objection; asked Page 283 Page 285 1 the plant w here this hazard is present. 1 and answered. 2 Basically, inhaling asbestos fibers of greater 2 THE W ITNESS: Yeah, I've already 3 than 5 micron size at a later date ~ can at a 3 said that. 4 later date cause lung cancer. Once the lung - 4 BY MR. PANATIER: 5 once in the lungs, the fib ers can be retained 5 Q. You can set that aside. 6 and may affect the lungs m any years later; 6 Now, that m emo we just looked at, 7 hence, breathing heavily ladened air 7 talking about how to train new em ployees, 8 occasionally or lightly contaminated air 8 right, for the folks making the product, how 9 continuously are equally dangerous." 9 close w ere they to the final boxed product in 10 W hat he's saying is basically heavy 10 term s o f distance? How fa r w ere they? 11 exposures fo r a sh o rt term m ay be ju st as 11 A. W e're talking feet? Yards? I mean, 12 dangerous as long exp o su res th at are lower, 12 w h a t - 13 right? 13 Q. Yeah, whatever distance you, you 14 A. That's w hat he's saying. 14 w ant to use. Metric? 15 Q. "No effects will be noticed by an 15 A. If, if -- if the pulping platform 16 affected person until the fibers cause 16 w as, say, as big as this. 17 m alignant tumors, at w hich point the individual 17 Q. Big as this table? 18 is unlikely to be cured." 18 A. Yeah. 19 Did I read that right? 20 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. So it's about, I don't know, 20 12 feet long, som ething like that. 21 Q. "They know that there are asbestos 21 A. And then the slurry would be sent to 22 diseases, many o f w hich there is no cure for." 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. "The hazards o f airbo rne asbestos is 25 present in the batching area o f th e pulping 22 a form ing machine, which would be maybe as far 23 away as, as the wall over there. 24 Q. Okay. So maybe 30, 40 feet, 25 som ething like that? 72 (Pages 282 to 285) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 286 Page 288 1 A. Probably. 1 components? 2 Q. Okay. 2 A. Correct. 3 MR. INABINET: Are w e talking one 3 Q. Right? And so you -- how m any would 4 plant? 4 be shrink-wrapped together? 5 BY MR. PANATTER: 5 A. Again, it depends on the size of the 6 Q. Yeah, within the plant. 6 ingot they w ere being sent to. 7 A. W ithin the plant. 7 Q. W here did the - w here did the 8 Q. W ithin one plant. 8 caution label go? 9 MR. INABINET: W hich plant? 9 A. On the shrink-wrap. 10 TH E W ITNESS: I w as assum ing 10 Q. On the shrink-wrap. 11 Cleveland plant. 11 So there w ould be one label per 12 MR. PANATIER: Yeah. 12 shrink-w rap and then a num ber of hot top boards 13 MR. INABINET: Okay. 13 in it? 14 THE WITNESS: And then from that 14 A. There would to the best of my - 15 m achine they would form w hat w e call green 15 th ere w ould be four, on e on each. 16 products, which would then go on a conveyor 16 Q. One on each what? 17 belt m aybe the length -- half the length of 17 A. On each side. 18 this table. And then it would go into an 18 Q. One on each side. Okay. 19 oven probably the length of this room or, 19 So w henever it got to the customer, 20 or close to it or less maybe, som ew here 20 the steel mill, som eone w ould take a knife and 21 between the length of this table and the 21 cut the plastic off, right? 22 room. And then from there they would com e 22 MR. KADISH: Objection to form; 23 out of the oven, and they would go into a 23 speculation. 24 finishing area where the boards would be 24 THE W ITNESS: Only when they were 25 looked at and, and packaged. 25 going to use the boards out o f that Page 287 Page 289 1 BY MR. PANATIER: 1 sh rin k-w ra p . 2 Q. Okay. And the finishing area, is 2 BY MR. PANATIER: 3 that where the workers would knock o ff any 3 Q. Sure, sure. So when they were ready 4 barbs or corners. 4 to use them, som eone would open it up with a 5 A. Linish, like w e talked about, yes. 5 knife or whatever, right? 6 Q. Right. And then the packaging would 6 A. Yes. 7 have been right next to that? 7 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 8 A. It would be -- I'm not sure. I 8 BY MR. PANATIER: 9 ca n 't rem em ber exactly. But w h at it did is 9 Q. Take off the shrink-wrap? 10 they w ere then picked up and taken over to a, a 10 A. Yes. 11 shrink-w rap m achine. So it -- there w asn 't an 11 MR. KADISH: Objection to form. 12 au tom atic continual process. 12 BY MR. PANATIER: 13 Q. Right. The hot tops them selves w ere 13 Q. And when they removed the 14 in cardboard boxes? 14 shrink-wrap, they rem oved the caution label? 15 A. Tim e frame. It depends w hat -- 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. In the mid-'70s. 16 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 17 A. No, they w ere shrink-wrapped. 17 BY MR. PANATIER: 18 Q. So they were just - the raw piece 18 Q. Okay. Now, prior to September o f 19 o f m aterial ju st had plastic shrink-w ra pped on 19 '72, there w as never a caution label, right? 20 it? 20 A. Correct. 21 A. W hat it was was there would be a 22 stack of boards, and all that stack w ould be 23 shrink-wrapped. 21 Q. The caution label after Septem ber of 22 7 2 would have been on the shrink-wrap which 23 would have been removed when the shrink-wrap 24 Q. And you say a stack o f boards. 24 was removed? 25 You're talking about the individual hot top 25 A. Correct. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM 73 (Pages 286 to 289) ANTHONY MONEY Page 290 Page 292 1 Q. T h e re w a s never a caution label in 1 A. Correct. 2 any w ay affixed to the individual boards? 2 Q. W e've seen Mt. Braddock, w e've seen 3 A. No. 3 Chicago, and w e've seen Cleveland, right? 4 Q. Okay. For th e folks w orking In 4 A. Correct. 1 5 m anufacturing but working around the finished 5 Q. So let's go ahead and under 6 product after Septem ber of 7 3 , did Foseco 6 "Findings" there on the first page it says, 7 train them on the hazards of asbestos? 7 "The raw m aterials of prim ary concern for this 8 A. All, all em ployees were, were 8 evaluation are am osite asbestos, chrysotile 9 trained on hazards of asbestos. 9 asbestos, silica flour," and then it goes on to 10 Q. Okay. But those folks certainly saw 10 several other silica Iterations, right? 11 th e caution label, right? 11 A. Yes. 12 A. Yes. 12 Q. T h en If you turn to th e p ag e th a t is 13 Q. And they, and they still needed to 13 890 a t th e bottom on th e Bates stam p. 14 be trained on th e hazards of asbestos? 14 A. Yes. 1 15 A. It was part of that safety com m ittee 15 Q. Okay. It says, "Conclusions and 16 to edu cate th e em ployees. 16 recom m endations Prem ix operation." "The 17 Q. The caution label as it existed on 17 prevailing breathing zone concentrations o f 6.6 18 th e Foseco hot top s th en w a sn 't enough on Its 18 fibers per m illiliter o f asbestos and 16.8 19 ow n fo r th o se em p lo yees to see th a t and truly 19 m illigram s per cubic m eter o f silica dust are 20 appreciate the hazards, correct? 20 considered good approxim ations o f their 21 MR. KADISH: Objection. 21 respective 8-hour tim e-w eighted concentrations. 22 TH E W ITNESS: Well, I don't know 22 W hile they are both in excess o f th e ir TLV's, 23 whether it was or not, but we, we m ade sure 23 the silica dust is excessive to a m uch greater 24 all the em ployees w ere, w ere educated. 24 degree." ; 25 25 So this is th e third result w e're Page 291 Page 293 i 1 BY MR. PANATIER: 1 seeing in Foseco operations w here asbestos is 2 Q. Okay. Beyond what they would see on 2 above the thresholds th a t are in place, 1 3 the label you chose to put on it? 3 correct? 4 A. Correct. 4 A. That's correct. 5 MR. PANATIER: Okay. Let's go ahead 5 Q. Okay. Sir, if you would turn the 6 and switch the tape. 6 page, it says, "Sawing operation. T he 7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going o ff the 7 prevailing breathing zone concentrations of 8 video record at 3:35 p.m. at the end of 8 56.2 fibers per m illiliter o f asbestos and 13.5 9 Tape 5. 9 m illigram s o f silica dust w ould not be 10 (W hereupon, a recess was taken.) 10 considered 8 -ho ur averages since th e operation 11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going back on the 11 is perform ed fo r 4 to 6 hou rs per day. T h e 12 video record at 3:40 p.m., Videotape 6. 12 average co ncentra tio ns could be o n e -h a lf to 13 (Money Deposition Exhibit No. 38 13 three-fourths o f th a t reported. The adjusted 14 was marked fo r Identification.) 14 concentrations would still be well in excess o f 15 BY MR. PANATIER: 15 th eir T LV 's." Correct? 16 Q. Sir, have you seen this before? 16 A. That's correct. 17 A. Yes. 17 Q. So so far to this point, every 18 Q. This is the results of another 18 m easurem ent w e've seen in an industrial hygiene 19 industrial hygiene survey perform ed at the 20 Mt. Braddock plant for -- on August 27th, 74, 19 survey taken in a Foseco facility fo r asbesto s 20 has been above the guidelines in place or above 21 right? 22 A. Yes. 21 the levels in place by law, correct? 22 MR. KADISH: Objection; form . 23 Q. Now, this would be the third plant 24 th at w e've seen an industrial hygiene survey 25 for, correct? 23 THE WITNESS: Every one w e've looked 24 at has said that, correct. 25 74 (Pages 290 to 293) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITTGATTON.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 294 Page 296 1 BY MR. PANATIER: 1 turn to the last page, I w ant to ask you about 2 Q. Okay. All right. 2 som e of that, but actually, do you know who 3 "Coping platform. The prevailing 3 w rote this? 4 breathing zone concentration of 13.3 fibers per 4 A. Let m e see. No, I, I don't. 5 m illiliter o f asbestos is considered an 5 Q. Okay. Have you seen it before? 6 approxim ation o f the 8-hour average only when 6 A. Yes. 7 one m ixer is loaded. If both w ere loaded, 7 Q. Okay. It is w ritten by som eone at 8 however, the 8-hour average would be expected 8 Foseco, correct? 9 to be som ew hat lower. M ost of the asbestos and 9 A. Correct. 10 other types o f dust exposure appear to be m ost 10 Q. It is to Jerry, Jim , and Tom ? 11 sig n ifican t during th e pouring o f ball m ill 11 A. Yes. 12 dust into the loading container w hen loading 12 Q. W ho are they? 13 th e m ixe r and w hen w e igh in g m ateria ls u n d er th e 13 A. I believe this is a Mt. Braddock. 14 hood." 14 Q. Em ployee? 15 13.3 fibers per ml in 1974 is m ore 15 A. Yeah. I think they all are Mt. 16 than tw ice the PEL o f 5, correct? 16 Braddock em ployees. 17 A. On that average, yes. 17 Q. W ho's Dave W? 18 Q. Okay. All right. Sir, you can set 18 A. I'm not sure w h o th at is. I don't 19 that aside. 19 think he w as - the, the first ones I think are 20 W hy did Foseco have crocidolite 20 Mt. Braddock em ployees. The Dave W I'm not 21 asbestos on hand in 1974? 21 sure. 22 A. They, they did not, except for by 22 Q. Okay. It just says - the first 23 m istake North Am erican shipped som e crocidolite 23 sentence there just says, "A brief analysis of 24 asbestos instead of the brown. And we 24 asbestos usage in th e p lant for the past tw o 25 collected it up and shipped it back to them . 25 m onths is listed below." And he lists it all Page 295 Page 297 1 Q. All right. 1 out, right? 2 MR. PANATIER: Are we on 39? 2 A. Yes. 3 MR. INABINET: 39. 3 Q. Go ahead and turn to the last page. 4 (Money Deposition Exhibit No. 39 4 He says, "It is quite apparent to me that we 5 was marked for identification.) 5 will not ever be in com pliance w ith the OSHA 6 BY MR. PANATIER: 6 standards unless the m aterial is eliminated 7 Q. Sir, I just w ant to clarify that. 7 from our process entirely. Our OSHA com pliance 8 Does this document talk about that? They got 8 officer will return to fully investigate our 9 blue asbestos? They w ere not going to use it? 9 serious health hazard and no doubt soon. Let's 10 A. Correct. 10 get going and g et it o u t o f here now before the 11 Q. And, I guess, what? Sell it back to 11 feds start tossing o u t serio u s citations w hich 12 th e - 12 are n o t only expensive a s hell in fines but 13 A. No. W e shipped it back to the 13 also in the co st o f im m ediate com pliance." 14 supplier. 14 Sir, it w as true that Foseco had 15 Q. Right. I'm sorry. Sell it back if 15 received a num ber o f O S H A violations in the 16 you had already been billed o r ship it back to 17 the supplier? 16 mid-'70s, correct? 17 A. Correct. 18 A. Correct. 18 Q. They received violations at 19 Q. You can set that aside. 19 Mt. Braddock, right? 20 This will be Exhibit 40. 20 A. Yes. 21 (M oney Deposition Exhibit No. 40 21 Q. For asbestos, correct? 22 was marked for identification.) 22 A. Let me see them. 23 BY MR. PANATIER: 24 Q. Sir, th is is a do cu m e n t dated Ju ly 25 19th, 1975. It's three pages long. And if you 23 Q. W ell, I'm asking if you know. 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Okay. And they received violations HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLinGATION.COM 75 (Pages 294 to 297) ANTHONY MONEY Page 298 Page 300 1 for asbestos at Cleveland, correct? 1 and failure to label m aterials containing 2 A. I'm not sure. I, I can't remember. 2 asbestos? 3 Q. Did they ever receive any violations 3 A. I, I need to read it through. 4 fo r asbestos in Chicago? 4 Q. Yes, sir. You m ay. 5 A. I don't know. 5 A. O kay. I'v e read it. 6 Q. Okay. Have you been asked about 6 Q. Okay. And, sir, did you see there 7 this before? 7 that there are three violations of OSHA 8 A. I can't remember. 8 standards at the Mt. Braddock plant; one, for 9 Q. All right. And I'll ju st highlight 9 overexposure of em ployees; two, for failure to 10 som e stuff to m ake it a little bit quicker. 10 place caution signs; and, three, to -- failure 11 O kay? 11 to label m ateria ls co n ta in in g a sb e sto s? 12 MR. INABINET: Sure. Are w e done 12 A. W ithin th e plant, correct. 13 with 40, Chris? 13 Q. Okay. 14 MR. PANATIER: Yep. All done with 14 A. In, in -- I d o n 't w a n t it co n strued 15 that one. 15 that caution labels w as not w ith regard to 16 BY MR. PANATIER: 16 finished products. 17 Q. All right. Sir, I'm just going to 17 Q. It's on som ething in the plant. 18 ask you if it's true -- if certain things are 18 A. Correct. 19 true since I only have one copy and I'll give 19 Q. Okay. Yes, sir. You can set that 20 you a copy. Okay? 20 aside. 21 I'm just going to ask you to verify 21 This next exhibit will be 42. This 22 by looking at this, is it true that Foseco 22 one I have conveniently placed a flag and 23 received O SH A violations in - based on an 23 highlights for you. 24 inspection in Novem ber o f 1975 for exposing 24 (M oney Deposition Exhibit No. 42 25 em ployees to asbestos in th e Prem ix area, 25 w as m arked for identification.) Page 299 Page 301 1 cem ent mixing area, and pulper; they were cited 1 MR. INABINET: Som ething doesn't 2 for failure to place caution signs, advising 2 look right ab o u t it, Chris. T h a t's w h y I'm 3 employees of asbestos hazards, and failure to 3 looking a t it. 4 affix caution labels to asbestos-containing 4 MR. PANATIER: Sure. If the pages 5 m aterials or their containers at the 5 are mixed up o r som ething, let me know. 6 Mt. Braddock plant? 6 MR. INABINET: Yeah. Som ething just 7 And you know what? Here. Let's 7 doesn't look rig h t ab o u t it. 8 make that 41. 9 (Money Deposition Exhibit No. 41 8 MR. PANATIER: W hat is it? W e can 9 fix it. 10 w as marked for identification.) 10 MR. INABINET: The pages don't look 11 MR. INABIN ET: You're asking does it 11 right. It looks incom plete o r som ething, 12 say w hat it says? 13 MR. PANATIER: Does it say w hat I 12 but I'd have to look at the - in m y files 13 to see. 14 just read off. 14 MR. PANATIER: The only thing that 15 THE WITNESS: If I can remember what 15 m atters is the one page. 16 you said, I'll agree. So, so -- 16 MR. INABINET: Right. 17 BY MR. PANATIER: 18 Q. So here's the question. Here's the 19 question. First o f all, w as Mt. Braddock cited 17 BY MR. PANATIER: 18 Q. Sir, if you'll ju st turn to the 19 flagged page. S om e o f th e in trodu ctory pages 20 by OSHA for violations of the Occupational 21 Safety & Health Act specifically pertaining to 22 asbestos? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. W ere they cited for 20 may be out of order, but I just want to ask you 21 about the flagged page. 22 It is true that Foseco w as also 23 cited for OSHA violations at the Cleveland 24 plant, right? 25 overexposures, failure to place caution signs, 25 A. Correct. 76 (Pages 298 to 301) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 302 Page 304 1 Q. Okay. And th at w as in -- on 1 very good job o f protecting its own em ployees 2 Decem ber 6th, 1973? 2 from asbestos dust? 3 A. It's 6 o r 8. I th ink it's a 6, yes. 3 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 4 Q. And w hat was the citation for? 4 T H E W ITNESS: They, they w ere doing 5 A. Failed to provide engineering 5 w hat they could to protect them , and the 6 controls to prevent atm ospheric contam ination 6 documents w e've seen here are, are just a 7 in excess o f 5 asbestos fibers longer than 3 7 selection of, o f docum ents w hich show w here 8 m icrom eters per cubic centim eter for an 8-hour 8 w e w ere in excess. 9 tim e w eight -- weighted average and to prevent 9 And with regard to this one, for 10 the em ployees from being exposed to an excess 10 exam ple, it says failed to provide annual 11 o f 10 asbestos fibers longer than 5 11 com prehensive m edical. W e, w e did. But I 12 m icrometers. 12 don't think - - 1 think w hat they w ere 13 Q. You, you understand -- Foseco 13 concerned ab o u t there is although w e w ere 14 understands that there w as both an 8-hour 14 doing m edicals, it w asn't a full pulmonary 15 tim e-w eighted average perm issible exposure 15 m edical. And with regard to the 16 limit of 5 fibers per - on cubic centim eter 16 respirators, w e had a respirator program, 17 and a short-term excursion lim it or ceiling 17 but it w asn't docum ented to their 18 level o f 10 fibers per cubic centim eter, 18 satisfaction. 19 correct? 19 BY MR. PANATIER: 20 A. Correct. 20 Q. And the requirem ents under OSHA w ere 21 Q. All right. And I know w hy it looked 21 that it had to be docum ented, right? 22 weird because there w ere two citations that 22 A. Not that I know of. 23 day. That's the second one. Okay. 23 Q. Okay. You got violations o f OSHA 24 MR. PANATIER: So w e'll just make 24 fo r it, right? 25 that part of Exhibit 42. 25 A. It w as saying it w asn't docum ented Page 303 Page 305 1 MR. INABINET: And it should be. Do 1 to their satisfaction. But we had a program in 2 you w ant to ask him about this, too? 2 place is w hat I wanted to say. 3 MR. PANATIER: Yeah, yeah. 3 Q. And those w ere held to be violations 4 BY MR. PANATIER: 4 of the OSHA Act, correct? 5 Q. Sir, there were actually two 5 A. Correct. 6 citations from that inspection. And can you 6 Q. Okay. In addition to the other 7 see that there's another -- that's another page 7 citations for overexposure, for failure to put 8 from that publication? 8 up w arning signs, and failure to label, 9 A. Yes, yes. 9 correct? 10 Q. And w hat are the citations for 10 A. Correct. 11 there? 11 Q. Right. My question to you stands, 12 A. It says, "Failed to provide annual 12 w hich is, based on th o se violations as w ell as 13 com prehensive m edical exam inations to each of 13 the other m easurem ents w h ere people w ere 20 and 14 its em ployees engaged in occupation exposed to 14 30 tim es above the PEL for asbestos exposure, 15 airborne concentration o f asbestos fibers and 15 do you agree that Foseco w as not doing a very 16 failed to enforce the use o f respirators which 16 good jo b o f protecting th o se em ployees w h o w ere 17 are applicable and suitable for the purpose 17 w orking w ith asbestos in its ow n facilities? 18 intended and to establish and m aintain a 18 MR. KADISH: Objection to form. 19 respiratory protective program ." 19 Argum entative. 20 Q. Sir, do you agree that for, for the 20 THE W ITNESS: It w as, it w as making 21 docum ents we've looked at, w hich include the 21 w hatever effort they could do to, to make 22 industrial surveys showing excess levels o f 22 the plant as safe as they could. 23 asbestos every tim e it w as m easured, as well as 23 BY MR. PANATIER: 24 these O SH A violations that we've looked at, 24 Q. And as safe as they could is 20 and 25 would you agree that Foseco was not doing a 25 30 tim es above the PEL? HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITTGATION.COM 77 (Pages 302 to 305) ANTHONY MONEY Page 306 Page 308 1 MR. KADISH: Objection; 1 there. 2 arg u m entative. 2 "I've contacted Bill Vandem ark 3 THE WITNESS: When they were 3 through his secretary and ask that he give this 4 measured, that was the thing. But all I'm 4 problem his im m ediate attention. I w ould 5 telling you is that there w as a 5 appreciate y o u r assistance in ensuring th at w e 6 conscientious effort to try to im prove 6 do com ply with your m em o." 7 safety conditions all throughout the, the 7 And then som eone has w ritten a 8 m anufacturing. 8 handwritten note. Do you see that? 9 BY MR. PANATIER: 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. You agree, don't you, sir, that 10 Q. W ho is that? 11 there can -- there are different quality levels 11 A. It's Dr. Phoenix. 12 o f effort? There are som e people w ho put forth 12 Q. Okay. T h is is Dr. Phoenix. He 13 a little effort and som e people w h o put forth a 13 says, "No asbestos product is to be 14 lot of effort. Do you agree with that? 14 m anufactured in o u r plants a fte r Ju ly 1st." 15 A. Yes. 15 Right? 16 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 16 A. Correct. 17 BY MR. PANATIER: 17 Q. He adds, though, "Asbestos may be 18 Q. And do you agree that the results 18 added by Johnston em ployees" -- o r "Johnstow n 19 that w e have seen, all of the overexposures, 19 em ployees if they require it." 20 the OSHA citations, say that w hatever effort 20 A. Correct. 21 Foseco w as putting forth, it was not enough to 21 Q. Right? He's talking about one of 22 protect its workers w ho w ere working with 22 Foseco's custom ers? 23 asbestos. 23 A. Correct. 24 A. In those areas, correct. 24 Q. And he's saying if they w ant to add 25 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 25 asbestos, th ey can d o it. Page 307 Page 309 1 BY MR. PANATIER: 1 A. Yeah, what -- this was the Prem ix 2 Q. Okay. Sir, this will be Exhibit 8 2 ship to Johnstown. And Johnstow n were not 3 billion. 3 happy with the asbestos-free Prem ix that we 4 MR. INABINET: 43. 4 w ere supplying them . And they w ere insisting 5 MR. PANATIER: 43. Close enough. 5 that w e supply asbestos-containing Premix. 6 (Money Deposition Exhibit No. 43 6 And w hat Phoenix said was w e're not. 7 was marked for identification.) 7 And if they w ant asbestos in that Prem ix, they 8 BY MR. PANATIER: 8 can add it them selves. 9 Q. All right. Sir, this is a m em o from 9 Q. Going back to hot tops for a second, 10 June 25th, 1976; am I right? 10 Foseco understands that all o f th e gentlem en 11 A. Correct. 11 w h o w ould w o rk on platform s w h ere th e y w ould 12 Q. It's from T. Jackering or 12 put in hot tops into m olds, not all o f those 13 Jeckerling? 13 guys would be unpacking the hot tops as they 14 A. Jeckerling. 14 cam e in. S om eo ne w ould u n p a ck them and bring 15 Q. W ho is that? 15 them out so those guys could use them , right? 16 A. He w as a person -- I ca n 't rem em ber 16 A. Not really. They w ere really there 17 his position. 17 next to w h ere th ey w ere, w e re used. 18 Q. Okay. "Subject, Use of Asbestos." 18 Q. Do you know at Arm co Butler whether 19 He says, "Per Frank Bilton's report, w e are 19 or not the shrink-w rap w as taken o ff once they 20 still using 30,000 pounds o f asbestos per 20 were delivered to the hot top area or w hether 21 m onth." This is as o f June '76. "Our 21 or not they ju st brought a series o f pallets 22 com m itm ent to Bill Dean w as no asbestos usage 22 out all shrink-w rapped and they just waited? 23 by July 1st, 76. At this stage we can hardly 23 Do you know? 24 afford to gam ble further. W e are" -- let's 24 A. I don't know, no. 25 see. Gamble further. Okay. I'm going to stop 25 Q. Okay. The bottom line is at no time 78 (Pages 306 to 309) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 310 Page 312 1 did Foseco provide any type o f asbestos 1 products w ithin the steel mill. And w hat 2 caution, warning, instructions, or anything 2 happened w as that I w as satisfied after talking 3 like that on the actual boards that w ere sold 3 to the steel - all the steel salesm en th at on 4 to be hot tops. 4 July 11th, 1976, that there w as no 5 MR. KADISH: Objection; asked and 5 asbestos-containing products within any of the 6 answered. 6 steel m ills. 7 TH E W ITNESS: No. 7 So that's the background to this. 8 BY MR. PANATIER: 8 Now, w hy it's w orded this way, I have no idea. 9 Q. Okay. Next will be 44. 9 Q. Because he says you just authorized 10 A. Are you done with this one? 10 the use o f asbestos through July 12th, w hich 11 MR. PANATTER: Yes, sir. 11 w a s ten d ays hence, co rrect? 12 (Deposition Exhibit No. 44 12 A. Yes, and that's, that's not, that's 13 w as m arked for identification.) 13 not true. It's n o t true. I had no au th o rity 14 BY MR. PANATIER: 14 to do that. 15 Q. Have you seen that before, sir? 15 Q. Okay. But he says - - 1 mean, he 16 A. Yes, I have, yeah. 16 sa ys you au th o rized it. 17 Q. Okay. This is a Foseco m em o, right? 17 A. Yeah, and I didn't. 18 A. Yes. 18 MR. INABINET: Objection; asked and 19 Q. It's from W J . Vandem ark. W ho's 19 a n sw e red . 20 that? 20 BY MR. PANATIER: 21 A. He w as another one o f the steel mill 21 Q. Okay. And he said that - he goes 22 people. 22 on further to say that Dr. Phoenix concurs with 23 Q. Okay. To Dr. Phoenix. And Dr. 23 you r authorization of the use o f asbestos 24 Phoenix is the one w ho w rote on th e previous 24 through July 12th, right? 25 m em o, no asbestos to be used after Ju ly 1st, 25 A. Yeah, and that's, that's not true. Page 311 Page 313 1 right? 1 Q. It's n o t tru e th a t Dr. Phoenix 2 A. Correct. 2 concurred with what he thought you did? 3 Q. Mr. Vandem ark w rites here, "I now 3 A. Correct. W hat Phoenix said was 4 understand that Mr. Money has authorized use o f 4 w e're not shipping, we're not sending any 5 asbestos at Mt. Braddock through July 12th and 5 p ro du cts o u t a fte r Ju ly 1. Now, w h ere th e 6 this has m et with your concurrence. Asbestos 6 m isunderstanding cam e in, I'm not sure. 7 will not be used after this date at all costs, 7 Q. Okay. And then lastly it says, 8 including loss o f business." 9 So first I w ant to ask, did 8 "Asbestos will not be used after this date at 9 all costs including loss o f business." 10 Mr. Vandem ark com e to you and say, "Dr. Phoenix 10 A. And that's correct. There w as one 11 said we can't do it after July 1st. Could you, 11 o r tw o recipes th at w e could not ch an ge and so 12 as som eone higher up in the com pany, give us an 12 w e stopped selling those products. 13 extension"? Is that kind o f w hat happened? 13 Q. W as this the first time where Foseco 14 A. No. I, I, I can't rem em ber this 14 sim ply stopped selling a product even though it 15 memo. And I know I didn't have authority to 15 m eant loss of business? 16 say they could use asbestos or not. The story 16 MR. INABINET: Objection. 17 is that w e w ere going asbestos-free July 1 and 18 that I had a concern that did w e have any 17 THE W ITNESS: I'm, I'm not sure how 18 to answ er that. I don't know. 19 asbestos-containing products in any steel mill 20 locations or any of the w arehouses which we 19 BY MR. PANATIER: 20 Q. Okay. Is this -- as you sit here, 21 would have next to those locations. 21 is this the only tim e you're aware of? 22 And so w hat I insisted on is that 22 MR. INABINET: Objection; form. 23 fo r all the steel men - steel salesm en to go 24 around every plant, every warehouse, to make 23 THE WITNESS: Correct. 24 BY MR. PANATIER: 25 sure that there were no asbestos-containing 25 Q. Okay. Do you agree that in ord er to HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM 79 (Pages 310 to 313) ANTHONY MONEY Page 314 Page 316 1 protect workers from the risks that Foseco 1 BY MR. PANATIER: 2 acknow ledged in the end use o f its hot tops, 2 Q. Sir, this is a m em o - is it from 3 at, at the very least it should have 3 Bilton to Jeckerling? 4 entertained ending som e o f those product lines 4 A. Yes. 5 even if it m eant loss of business? 5 Q. So it's dated Septem ber 14th, 1976, 6 MR. KADISH: Objection to form. 6 from Mr. Bilton. And he says, "Please see the 7 THE W ITNESS: I, I don't know. 7 enclosed letter from Brown Insulating Systems, 8 BY MR. PANATTER: 8 Inc., regarding our rem aining inventory of 9 Q. Don't you think that would be a 9 am osite asbestos w hich w e sold to them ." 10 reasonable thing? 10 So Foseco stopped m aking the hot 11 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 11 to p s in ea rly Ju ly o f 1976, co rre ct? 12 TH E W ITNESS: Not when w e believed 12 A. Correct. 13 that there w as no risk to the, to the steel 13 Q. By the w ay, for all of the hot tops 14 mill em ployees. 14 th at w ere already m ade in Ju ly o f 1976, they 15 BY MR. PANATIER: 15 sold ~ they did sell the inventory, correct? 16 Q. W ell, w e can go back to our 1965 and 16 A. No. 17 '67 m em os w here they acknow ledge -- w here 17 Q. Okay. There was an inventory o f hot 18 Foseco, you, ackn ow led g e th a t th ere is a risk 18 tops th at w as unsold? 19 to the end users. 19 A. Correct. 20 A. Potential risk. 20 Q. All right. Now, tw o m onths later 21 MR. INABINET: Objection; form. 21 they still had a surplus of the raw am osite 22 BY MR. PANATIER: 22 asbestos, correct? 23 Q. Okay. And my point is at no tim e 23 A. Correct. 24 did Foseco even entertain sim ply ending a 24 Q. They did sell that to another 25 product line th a t had asbesto s in it even 25 com pany, right? Page 315 Page 317 1 though it may have m eant loss o f business in 1 A. Correct. 2 o rd er to prevent risk o f disease in th e end 2 Q. That was Brown Insulating System s? 3 users, correct? 3 A. Correct. 4 MR. KADISH: Objection; form; asked 4 Q. W hat did Brown Insulating System s 5 and answered. 5 make? 6 THE W ITNESS: Yeah, I've already 6 A. They m ade -- I believe it w as 7 answered that, yes. 7 foundry products. 8 BY MR. PANATIER: 8 Q. Foundry products. 9 Q. And the answer's yes, correct? 9 And it says in the next sentence, 10 A. Correct. 10 "At the tim e w e sold this m aterial to Brown, we 11 Q. W ell, the answ er is m y statem ent is 11 had no o th er hom e fo r it. Brow n paid us 12 correct? 12 essentially the price w e paid fo r the m aterial, 13 A. Correct. 13 and w e w ould probably have gotten only a 14 MR. KADISH: Objection. 14 fraction of that if w e had sold it elsew here." 15 MR. PANATIER: I think I have one 15 Right? 16 more document. 16 A. Correct. 17 THE WITNESS: Are you finished with 17 Q. Ultim ately, can you tell, can you 18 this one? 18 tell the ju ry w hy Foseco w ent asbestos-free? 19 MR. PANATIER: Yes. 19 A. It went asbestos-free because of the 20 MR. INABINET: It's 45. 21 MR. PANATIER: This will be Exhibit 20 potential hazards using asbestos. 21 Q. It understood that there were 22 45. 22 potential risks to peo ple in th e plant and in 23 (Deposition Exhibit No. 45 24 was marked for identification.) 23 the end use, correct? 24 MR. KADISH: Objection; asked and 25 25 answered. 80 (Pages 314 to 317) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 318 Page 320 1 TH E WITNESS: In the plant because 1 pounds. 2 it w as -- w e brought in raw, raw asbestos 2 Q. 30,000 pounds. That's about -- w hat 3 m aterial. But it was not raw asbestos 3 is that? 15 tons? Is th at correct? 4 m aterial in the steel m ill operation. 4 A. Yes, yes. 5 BY MR. PANATTER: 5 Q. Okay. 15 tons. 6 Q. I understand. But w e talked about 6 W as it still -- the last tim e w e saw 7 the fact that there was a recognized risk to 7 a price, it w as $210 per ton, right? 8 the end users earlier. 8 A. Okay. 9 A. Correct. 9 Q. It w as probably still in that range 10 Q. Okay. Now, you stopped using 10 around now, right? 11 asbestos because o f the health hazard. But 11 MR. INABINET: Objection. 12 w ithin tw o m onths o f stopping because o f the 12 T H E W IT N E SS: I d o n 't know. 13 health hazard, in o rd er to, I guess, allev ia te 13 BY MR. PANATTER: 14 a little bit o f the loss o f having som e 14 Q. It certainly w asn't more than 500 a 15 asbestos laying around, you still sold it to 15 ton, w as it? 16 another com pany that w as m aking end use 16 MR. KADISH: Objection. 17 products for people, correct? 17 TH E W ITNESS: I don't know. 18 A. Correct. 18 BY MR. PANATIER: 19 MR. KADISH: Objection; form . 19 Q. W as it a thousand a ton? 20 BY MR. PANATTER: 20 MR. KADISH: Objection. 21 Q. You didn't have to sell that am osite 21 T H E W ITNESS: I have no idea. 22 to that other com pany that w as m aking end use 22 BY MR. PANATIER: 23 products for people, correct? 23 Q. Let's say this. The last price w e 24 A. Correct. 24 saw w as 210 per ton, $210. Okay? Assum ing 25 Q. Sir, do you agree th at it's 25 it's still roughly $200 a ton, this is 15 tons, Page 319 Page 321 1 inconsistent to say on the one hand w e stopped 1 that's $3,000. 2 putting asbestos in our product because w e w ere 2 A. Okay. 3 concerned about the health hazards pertinent to 3 Q. Is that right? 4 it - ap pu rtena nt to it, but b ecause w e had 4 A. W hatever you -- 5 excess am osite asbestos lying around, w e sold 5 Q. $3,000. If it's $1,000 a ton, it's 6 it to another com pany that w as going to put it 6 $15,000, right? 7 in products and sell it to people? 7 A. Okay. 8 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 8 Q. So for between 3,000 and $15,000, 9 BY MR. PANATTER: 9 assum ing that the price w as between 200 and 10 Q. Do you agree that that's 10 $1,000 a ton, Foseco decided that it w ould sell 11 inconsistent? 11 its exce ss asbesto s fo r th a t price, so m ew here 12 A. No, it's -- it's -- w e had surplus 12 in that range, to another com pany w ho w as going 13 asbesto s. W e probably talked to North A m erican 13 to put th at asbestos into end use products and 14 and said, look, w e've got this asbestos; we'd 14 sell it to workers, correct? 15 like to ship it back. And w hat -- w hat 15 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. 16 probably happened, he gave a list of, of 16 TH E W ITNESS: W ell, w e're selling it 17 com panies that's still buying am osite asbestos. 17 to a com pany that w as already using 18 And we obviously contacted one, the one that's 18 asbestos and we were selling them our 19 show n here is brown, and they said, yeah, we'll 19 leftover inventory. He wasn't -- we 20 take, we'll take the asbestos. 20 w eren't selling them a product which they 21 Q. Right. You could have disposed of 21 were not using. 22 it, right? 22 BY MR. PANATIER: 23 A. Correct. 23 Q. The bottom line is you sold off 24 Q. Do you know how much there was? 24 30,000 pounds o f asbestos for not very much 25 A. I believe approxim ately about 30,000 25 money, right? HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLmGATTON.COM 81 (Pages 318 to 321) ANTHONY MONEY Page 322 Page 324 1 MR. INABINET: Objection. 1 MR. INABINET: 45. 2 MR. KADISH: Objection; asked and 2 M R. PA N A TIER : O kay. T h is is 3 answered. 3 Exhibit 46. I ju st w ant to ask if you've 4 THE W ITNESS: W e've already talked 4 seen this before. I don't care about the 5 about the numbers. 5 letter on the front. The thing on the back 6 BY MR. PANATIER: 6 is... 7 Q. It's not that much money. 7 MR. INABINET: Yeah. 8 MR. KADISH: Objection. 8 (M oney Deposition Exhibit No. 46 9 TH E W ITNESS: It's all relative. 9 w as m arked for identification.) 10 BY MR. PANATIER: 10 BY MR. PANATIER: 11 Q. W ell, how relative w as it to 11 Q. Sir, have you seen th at chart 12 Foseco's total revenue th at year? 12 before? 13 MR. INABINET: Objection. 13 A. Yes. 14 MR. KADISH: Objection. 14 Q. Is that an accurate chart, to the 15 TH E W ITNESS: W ell, the bottom line 15 best o f you r knowledge, o f the asbestos use 16 is w e had surplus asbestos. W e could have 16 during the various years it show s there? 17 disposed of it or w e could have sold it on. 17 MR. INABINET: Objection. 18 BY MR. PANATIER: 18 T H E W ITNESS: It is not a Foseco 19 Q. The idea of disposing of it never 19 d ocu m en t. 20 really even occurred to Foseco; did it? 20 BY MR. PANATIER: 21 MR. KADISH: Objection. 21 Q. Okay. W hat is it? 22 THE W ITNESS: If, if no one had 22 A. It's a docum ent that w as prepared by 23 wanted the asbestos, we would have disposed 23 a law firm , and it w as based on our purchasing 24 o f it, b ut w e found so m eo n e th a t w a n te d it. 24 records. 25 25 Q. Okay. So that was a docum ent that Page 323 Page 325 1 BY MR. PANATIER: 1 w as created by Foseco's own lawyers? 2 Q. There w as no w ay Foseco w as going to 2 A. Yes. 3 consider just disposing o f this couple thousand 3 Q. Okay. Are the numbers accurate 4 dollars worth o f asbestos if they could sell 4 based on the sales data? 5 it. 5 MR. INABINET: Objection. 6 MR. INABINET: Objection. 6 THE W ITNESS: They, they look 7 Objection. Chris, we've beat this horse to 7 reasonable, yes. 8 death. 8 BY MR. PANATIER: 9 BY MR. PANATIER: 9 Q. Okay. And you have - in, in the 10 Q. Right? 10 tim es th at you have done this w ork in asbestos 11 A. I don't know what else to say. 11 litigation, you've becom e fam iliar w ith the 12 Q. W ell, that's true, isn't it? 12 gen eral sales, correct? 13 A. W e had asbestos left over. W hat do 13 A. Correct. 14 we do with it? 14 MR. INABINET: You said - sorry. 15 Q. Okay. Let me, let me make it very 15 You said sales data. This, this is not 16 clear. T h e only w ay -- as you are saying here, 16 sales data. 17 the only w ay th at Foseco w ould entertain ju st 17 MR. PANATIER: Production data. 18 disposing o f the asbestos is if they couldn't 18 BY MR. PANATIER: 19 sell to som ebody, right? 19 Q. Is that production data? 20 MR. KADISH: Objection; asked and 20 A. This is purchased pounds. 21 answered; argumentative. 21 Q. T h a t's w hy it pays to have a co py in 22 TH E W ITNESS: Yes, th at's, that's 22 front o f us. W hat w e are looking at with 23 what I'm saying. 23 Exhibit 46 is pounds of raw asbestos purchased, 24 MR. PANATIER: I want you to -- what 24 correct? 25 was that one, 45? 25 A. Correct. 82 (Pages 322 to 325) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 326 Page 328 1 Q. Okay. And that -- you said that 1 MR. INABINET: You're going to label 2 those -- that com pilation o f inform ation looked 2 that one? 3 accurate to you. 3 MR. PANATIER: Yeah. 4 A. I, I have not checked th e num bers -- 4 THE W ITNESS: Do you want these 5 MR. INABINET: Objection. 5 back? 6 TH E W ITNESS: - but I said it looks 6 MR. INABINET: No. 7 reasonable, reasonably accurate, yes. 7 BY MR. PANATIER: 8 BY MR. PANA71ER: 8 Q. I just w ant to ask you -- and take a 9 Q. Okay. Sir, you can set th at aside. 9 look at 49 there or 47, w hich I just gave you. 10 Just a couple o f final things and w e w ill be 10 MR. PANATIER: This one's going to 11 finished. I've going to g ive you -- 11 be 50. 12 MR. PANATIER: W e're on 48? 12 (M oney Deposition Exhibit No. 50 13 MR. INABINET: 47. 13 w as m arked for identification.) 14 MS. REPORTER: Yes, 47. 14 TH E W ITNESS: It's the sam e 15 MR. PANATIER: I'm going to m ark 47, 15 docum ent, isn't it? 16 48, and 49 and I'll ju st ask you to verify 16 BY MR. PANATIER: 17 that these are - to the best o f your 17 Q. I think there w ere different 18 ability, these are fair and accurate copies 18 itera tio n s o f it. But it's okay. If th ey 're 19 of, of Foseco docum ents. 19 th e sam e docum ent, they're the sam e docum ent. 20 (M oney Deposition Exhibit Nos. 47, 20 A. Do you w ant m e to go through the 21 48, and 49 were marked for 21 pages or not? 22 identification.) 22 Q. My question is, for the - for those 23 MR. INABINET: Yeah. I m ean, Chris, 23 docum ents, do those appear to be authentic 24 just so w e're clear, there are, there are a 24 Foseco either catalogs or advertisem ents or 25 couple o f different docum ents stapled 25 brochures? Page 327 Page 329 1 together. 1 A. Correct. 2 MR. PANATIER: Yeah, som e of them 2 MR. INABINET: Objection. Hold on. 3 look like they go together and som e of them 3 They're Foseco docum ents, obviously. I 4 don't. W hy don't you -- you know w hat? If 4 d o n 't kno w o f any authentication issues 5 you w an t to separate it w here you know it 5 right now; but... 6 separates. 6 MR. PANATIER: W ell, I'm asking the 7 MR. INABINET: I m ean, I can't do it 7 company. 8 off the top of my head. But I know - I 8 MR. INABINET: Yeah, but you're 9 know , like, fo r exam ple, th e re 's a -- 9 asking him a legal question. 10 here's another Profax. 10 MR. PANATIER: W ell, the co m pa n y is 11 MR. PANATIER: Here. Let me pull 11 theoretically the best person to - I don't 12 that one. 12 think w e're going to have a problem with 13 MR. INABINET: Here's 48. Just 13 these, but, but I still am going to ask the 14 w ithout seeing mine, I can't tell w here -- 14 com pany. If at som e later time you want to 15 if it ends in the right place o r not; so... 15 tell the judge the com pany can't verify 16 MR. PANATIER: That's fine. If we, 16 them - 17 if we get to a point where at trial or 17 MR. INABINET: Do you w ant to tell 18 som ething and you're like that page isn't 18 him what, w hat you m ean by authentic? 19 on there, w e'll deal w ith it. O therw ise, 19 MR. PANATIER: Yeah, sure. 20 if the substance is correct, that's w hat 20 BY MR. PANATIER: 21 I'm asking him to verify that, that the 22 pages he sees are authentic. Okay? 23 MR. INABINET: Right. 24 MR. PANATIER: All right. Here's 21 Q. Sir, you have seen - you have seen 22 catalogs, brochures, and ads for Foseco 23 products in the past, correct? 24 A. I've seen brochures. 25 47. 25 Q. Okay. Do these appear to be what HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM 83 (Pages 326 to 329) ANTHONY MONEY Page 330 Page 332 1 they purport to be? In other words, do they 1 Q. Okay. How com plete are they 2 appear to be fair and accurate copies of w hat 2 generally? 3 they purport to be? 3 A. Tim e fram e. It's, it's -- w e've got 4 For instance, that first one is a 4 good records. There's one year we've got 5 Profax system. It says, "Products Produce 5 m idyear. W e've got sales through June of that 6 Better Ingots." It looks like it's a catalog. 6 year. W e've got another one where w e've got 7 You tell me if it's som ething else. 7 year to date of Novem ber, but we don't have the 8 A. I'm not sure w hat technical w ording 8 month of December. 9 to use. I look at these are product 9 A nd in so m e o f th e -- in '65 - - 1 10 brochures -- 10 think it is '66, w e've g ot som e indication of 11 Q. Okay. Okay. 11 sa le s fro m th e sa le s re p o rt and w e 've g o t som e 12 A. -- to say w hat Profax is about and 12 invoices but no sum m ary sales records. 13 e t cetera. 13 Q. All right. So from -- let's look at 14 Q. Does that appear to be a fair and 14 '65 to '76. 15 accurate copy o f a Foseco brochure fo r Profax? 15 A. Okay. 16 A. Yes. 16 Q. Are there any years where Foseco 17 Q. Okay. Sam e with the one that's 17 sales records are incom plete? 18 behind it? It m ay be th e exa ct sam e one. 18 A. Yes. 19 A. Yes. Yeah. 19 Q. Okay. W hich years? 20 Q. And then you've got one that's 20 A. The, the, the tw o I mentioned. 21 behind that. 21 W e've got sales for h a lf a ye a r in one o f the 22 A. Yes. 22 years, '70 and w h a te v e r it is, and th ere 's one 23 Q. Does that appear to be a fair and 23 year that w e're m issing the month of December. 24 accurate copy of a Foseco brochure? 24 W e've only got ye a r to d ate in Novem ber. 25 A. Yes. 25 Q. Kind o f a fo llo w -u p to th a t is, a re Page 331 Page 333 1 Q. And then the last one, fair and 1 you -- have you gone through to look for sales 2 accurate copy of a Foseco brochure? 2 records pertaining to Arm co Butler? 3 A. Yes. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. All right. And then lastly, this is 4 Q. Okay. And w hat did you find? 5 Exhibit 51. 5 A. I - well, I w ent through all the 6 (Money Deposition Exhibit No. 51 6 records to, to find sales to every com pany. 7 was marked for identification.) 7 And these are the result of those searches. 8 BY MR. PANATIER: 8 Q. Now, those, I believe, are ju st for 9 Q. I'll ask you to just page through 9 Arm co Butler, correct? 10 that docum ent. 10 A. Right. 11 MR. INABINET: Can we, can we just 11 Q. And when you say to every company. 12 first establish that those are the sales 12 w hat do you mean? 13 that were produced by Kradel just so we 13 A. W hen, when w e started looking at the 14 know w hat w e're talking about? 14 sales records and w e found out there was gaps 15 BY MR. PANATIER: 15 m issing, I w ent through every d ocum ent I could 16 Q. Yeah, so we're looking at - those 16 find that referenced sales to try to com plete 17 are sales docum ents produced by Foseco in the 17 that - those m issing periods of time. 18 Kradel case, K-r-a-d-e-l. 18 Q. Did you ever add up how m any total 19 A. I don't, I don't know. 19 boards w ere sold to Arm co Butler betw een '65 20 Q. Have you seen them before? 20 and 7 6 ? 21 A. I've seen these reports, but I don't 21 A. No. 22 know what case you're referring to. 22 Q. Is everything you have there in 23 Q. Do you know how com plete Foseco's 23 front of you? 24 sales records? 24 A. Is everything to do with Am oco 25 A. Yes. 25 Butler? 84 (Pages 330 to 333) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ANTHONY MONEY Page 334 Page 336 1 Q. Uh-huh. 1 Q. Okay. You don't know what 2 A. Yes. 2 proportion of the total am ount of hot tops they 3 Q. Okay. There are several categories 3 needed w ere purchased from Foseco as opposed to 4 on there. Som e -- it says ~ it looks like 4 Ferro? 5 projected and then actual sales -- 5 A. W h a t I -- w h a t I'v e seen and know is 6 A. Yes. 6 I know on som e o f those reports, when we were 7 Q. -- throughout, right? 7 trying to get into the Arm co Butler business, 8 If we want to know what Foseco 8 it m entions the com petitors that already had 9 actually sold to Arm co Butler, w e w ould look at 9 th e business. But it's sketchy, if anything, 10 the actual sales and not the projected, 10 that show s w hat the percentage each one had. 11 correct? 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. Correct. 12 A. So I don't know. 13 MR. INABINET: Hold on one second. 13 Q. Certainly they w eren't calling you 14 Now, ju s t so w e 're clear, th is Is only 14 and telling you w hat their sales numbers were. 15 asbestos-containing products? 16 MR. PANAnER: T h a t's right. T hat's 15 A. No. 16 Q. Okay, Sir, can -- would you agree 17 right. W e're only concerned w ith the 17 th at -- you know, w e related how Foseco 18 asbestos products. 19 BY MR. PANAnER: 18 approached safety w ith its em ployees and with 19 the products. Do you recall talking about 20 Q. Certainly it's possible, in fact 20 that? 21 likely, that Foseco sold also nonasbestos 21 A. Yes. 22 products to Arm co Butler, right? 22 Q. I ju st w ant to - I just w ant to 23 A. They did, yes. 23 kind o f level with you. Do you agree that 24 Q. Okay. Have you added those up to 24 Foseco could have done a w hole lot m ore to 25 give us som e idea of how much -- how m any o f 25 protect its own em ployees from asbestos Page 335 Page 337 1 those were sold? 1 exposure? 2 A. No. 2 MR. KADISH: Objection; asked and 3 Q. W as there a salesperson or group 3 answered. 4 responsible for selling to Arm co Butler at 4 THE W ITNESS: Yes, you can always do 5 Foseco? 5 things better. 6 A. There w as a salesm an responsible for 6 BY MR. PANATIER: 7 that account, but it changed over the years. 7 Q. And I'm, I'm talking about at the 8 Q. W ho w ere those people, to your 8 tim e. I'm not talking about in retrospect. 9 knowledge? 9 A. Yes. 10 A. Do you want me to go through the 10 Q. Okay. Arid at the tim e do you agree 11 reports? Because som e o f them sh ow it, som e 11 th a t Foseco could have done a w hole lot m ore to 12 don't. 12 pass along o r to protect its end users o f its 13 Q. If w h a t y o u 're going to a n sw e r is 13 a sbesto s-containing products? 14 based on that report, you don't have to. 14 MR. INABINET: Objection. 15 A. O kay. It is. 15 MR. KADISH: Objection; form. Also, 16 Q. If you r knowledge is based on just 16 asked and answered. 17 th at report, w e've got the report. That's 17 THE WITNESS: W e've already done 18 fine. 18 through this. W e took w hatever knowledge 19 A. It is. It is. 19 w as available at the time and we made 20 Q. Do you have any way to testify as to 20 responsible decisions on w hat w e should do 21 the com parison between how much hot -- how much 21 22 asbestos-containing hot top m aterial w as 22 to protect our workers and what was the potential risk for any steel mill workers. 23 purchased from Foseco by Arm co Butler as 23 I don't know w hat else to say on that. 24 opposed to Ferro? 25 A. No. 24 BY MR. PANATIER: 25 Q. My question wasn't that, though. My HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITlGAnON.COM 85 (Pages 334 to 337) ANTHONY MONEY Page 338 Page 340 1 question was, do you agree th at Foseco could 1 You testified earlier today that at 2 have done a lot m ore to protect the end users 2 som e point Foseco obtained a board that they 3 of its products? 3 believed was nonasbestos from Ferro, correct? 4 MR. KADISH: Objection; 4 A. They got a, a Ferro board from one 5 argum entative. 5 of th e steel mills, correct. 6 MR. INABINET: I m ean, w e're looking 6 Q. Can you give m e a tim e fram e of 7 40 years back, Chris. I don't think it's a 7 that? 8 fair question. I don't know how he's 8 A. I'm not sure. It -- it - - 1 can 9 supposed to -- 9 give you range. It w as probably som ew here 10 MR. PANATIER: That's a question 10 betw een '73 and probably '74, m aybe even '75. 11 asked in every a sb e sto s case. Y o u know 11 B u t th a t's th e a p p ro xim a te tim e fram e. 12 that. So... 12 Q. Do you rem em ber w hat steel m ill? 13 MR. KADISH: It's argum entative. 13 A. No, I don't. 14 MR. INABINET: And I'd object then, 14 Q. Do you know who got the board at 15 too; 15 Foseco? 16 MR. PANATIER: Okay. Then you're 16 A. No. 17 objecting. You've m ade your objection. 17 Q. Do you know who did the testing? 18 BY MR. PANATIER: 18 A. It's -- 19 Q. Sir, do you agree w ith that? 19 Q. O r the analysis of the board? 20 A. I don't know how to answer. I've, 20 A. Yeah, I'm not sure w ho w ould have 21 I've answered that question dozens o f tim es 21 done it w ithin Foseco. It w as done w ith -- by 22 today, and I don't know w hat else ~ w hat m ore 22 Foseco. 23 to say. 23 Q. So Foseco em ployees would have 24 Q. W e'll ask, w e'll ask som ebody else 24 analyzed that? 25 to make that judgment. But I just w ant you to 25 A. Correct. Page 339 Page 341 1 verify a fact, which is - 1 Q. Is there any type of document that 2 MR. KADISH: Objection to form. 2 reflects this analysis? 3 BY MR. PANATIER: 3 A. I don't know w hether I've seen any 4 Q. -- which is Foseco knew a w hole lot 4 or not. There is one, is there? I w asn't 5 more about the hazards of asbestos than it was 5 sure. 6 telling its end users, correct? 6 Q. Do you know w hy Foseco believed that 7 MR. INABINET: Objection; form. 7 this was an asbestos-free board versus an 8 THE WITNESS: Potential hazards, 8 asbestos-containing board that Ferro was -- 9 correct. 9 that they w ere given? 10 BY MR. PANATIER: 10 A. My recollection is that the person 11 Q. Right? Potential m eans you m ight 11 w h o got th e board g o t it from , from th e steel 12 get hurt, you m ight not, right? 12 mill w here it was supposed to be an 13 A. Correct. 13 a sb esto s-free board. T h e y w ere looking at 14 MR. PANATIER: Okay. Let's take a 14 saying, look, Ferro got asbestos-free; w e need 15 quick break. I think I'm done. 15 asbestos-free from you. So w e got a sam ple of 16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going o ff the 16 the board to see what they w ere using for 17 video record at 4:28 p.m. 17 asbestos-free. And when w e did the check, it 18 (Whereupon, a recess was taken.) 18 co nta ined so m e asbestos. T h a t's the m ost I 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: W e're back on the 19 know. 20 video record at 4:33 p.m. 20 Q. Do you know the percentages of 21 EXAMINATION 21 asbesto s th a t w as in there? 22 BY MS. MULLANEY: 22 A. I, I do not rem em ber, but it could 23 Q. Good afternoon, sir. My nam e is 23 be on that document. 24 Theresa Mullaney, and I represent Ferro. I 24 Q. Do you know if there were any 25 have a couple questions for you. 25 m arkings on the board indicating that it w as 86 (Pages 338 to 341) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ANTHONY MONEY 1 1 asbestos-free, o r is y o u r know led g e ju st 2 basically that som ebody at the steel mill told Page 342 CHANGES AND SIGNATURE 2 W ITNESS NAME: ANTHONY MONEY 3 the salesm an of Foseco that it was 3 DATE: July 23, 2013 4 asbestos-free? 4 PAGE LINE CHANGE REASON 56 A. That's m y understanding. Q. And, sir, you also ju st testified 5 6 78 that when you w ere trying to get into the Arm co Butler plant that they m entioned the 7 8 9 com petitors -- com petitors that w ere at that 9 10 10 site. Is th a t also on th a t sales sum m ary, the 11 11 com petitors? 12 12 A. The, the com petitors on the sales 13 sum m ary, yes. And if -- if you look a t the 13 14 very first one, it shows that - w ho the 14 15 com petitors w ere. I think it w as -- th at one's 15 16 1967. 16 17 MS. MULLANEY: Thank you. 17 18 MR. INABINET: Anybody else? 18 19 MR. KADISH: Let's go o ff the record 19 20 then. 20 21 21 T H E V ID EO G R A PH ER : Counsel, a re w e 22 concluded? 22 23 M R. IN A BIN ET : Y o u 'll read? 23 24 MR. KADISH: Read and sign? 24 25 THE W ITNESS: Sorry? 25 Page 344 Page 343 Page 345 1 MR. INABINET: You will read and 1 I, ANTHONY MONEY, HAVE READ THE FOREGOING 2 sign the deposition? 2 DEPOSITION AND HEREBY AFFIX MY SIGNATURE THAT SAME 3 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes. 3 IS TRUE AND CORRECT, EXCEPT AS NOTED ABOVE. 4 TH E VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes 4 5 the videotaped deposition o f Anthony Money, 5 6 consisting o f s ix videotapes. T h e tim e is 6 7 now 4:37 p.m. W e're now o ff the video 8 record. 9 (W hereupon, the deposition of 1101 ANTHO NY MONEY w as concluded at 4:37 p.m.) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 7 ANTHONY MONEY 8 T H E STATE O F ___________ ) 9 COUNTY O F ______________) 10 BEFORE M E ,______________________________ , 11 ON THIS DAY PERSONALLY APPEARED ANTHONY MONEY, 12 KNOWN TO ME (OR PROVED TO ME UNDER OATH OR THROUGH 13 1 (DESCRIPTION OF 14 IDENTITY CARD O R OTHER DOCUMENT) TO BE THE PERSON 15 W HOSE NAME IS SUBSCRIBED TO THE FOREGOING 16 INSTRUM ENT AND ACKNOW LEDGED TO ME THAT THEY 17 EXECUTED THE SAME FOR THE PURPOSES AND 18 CONSIDERATION THEREIN EXPRESSED. 19 GIVEN UNDER MY HAND AND SEAL OF OFFICE 20 THIS __ ________ DAY OF ___ ___________________ . 21 22 23 23 NOTARY PUBLIC IN AND FOR 24 24 THE STATE O F _____________ 25 25 COMMISSION E X P IR E S :___ _ HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGAT10N.COM 87 (Pages 342 to 345) ANTHONY MONEY 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATION 2 DEPOSITION OF ANTHONY MONEY 3 July 23, 2013 4 I, Janice M. Kocek, Certified Shorthand 5 Reporter in and for the State o f Illinois, hereby 6 certify to the following: 7 That the witness, ANTHONY MONEY, w as duly 8 sworn by the officer and that the transcript of 9 the oral deposition is a true record of the 10 testimony given by the witness; 11 That the deposition transcript was 12 submitted to the w itness o r to the attorney for 13 the w itness for exam ination; 14 I further certify that I am neither 15 counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of 16 the parties or attorneys in the action in which 17 this proceeding w as taken, and further that I am 18 not financially o r otherw ise interested in the 19 outcome of the action. 20 Certified to by me this 1st of August, 2013. 21 Page 346 22 JANICE M. KOCEK, CSR NO. 084-002871 Expiration Date: May 31, 2015 23 Firm Registration No. 69 HG Litigation 24 2501 Oak Lawn Avenue, Suite 600 Dallas, Texas 75219 25 1-888-656-DEPO 88 (Page 346) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITTGATION.COM