Document 9LL8qDz6bNooZR1XJ75V7QJz3

5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 STATE OF INDIANA 2 COUNTY OF MARION 3 4 IN THE MARION SUPERIOR COURT 5 CIVIL DIVISION, ROOM 2 6 CAUSE NO. 49D02-9501-MI-0001-374 7 8 FREAL and MARY FRYE, : 9 Plaintiff, : 10 vs. : 11 ACandS, INC., et al, : 12 Defendants. : 13 14 15 16 DEPOSITION OF: CARLO MARTINO 17 WEDNESDAY, MAY 9, 2001 18 19 20 21 22 ATLANTIC CITY COURT REPORTING COMPANY LLC 23 1125 Atlantic Avenue, Suite 416 24 Atlantic City, New Jersey 08401 25 609-345-8448 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 Deposition of CARLO MARTINO, taken 2 in the above-entitled matter before Phyllis A. 3 Semanchik, a Certified Shorthand Reporter 4 (License No. XI 01200) and Notary Public of the 5 State of New Jersey, taken at the EMBASSY 6 SUITES, 121 Centennial Avenue, Piscataway, New 7 Jersey, on Wednesday, May 9, 2001, commencing 8 at 2:55 p.m. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 NESS, MOTLEY, LOADHOLT, RICHARDSON & POOLE 4 BY: M. ERIC BOITER, ESQ. 5 P.O. Box 365 6 1730 Jackson Street 7 Barnwell, South Carolina 29812 8 (803) 224-8729 9 Attorneys for Plaintiffs 10 11 LAUDIG, GEORGE, RUTHERFORD & SIPES 12 BY: MICHAEL L. SCHULTZ, ESQ. 13 156 East Market Street, Suite 600 14 Indianapolis, Indiana 46204 15 (317) 637-6071 16 Attorneys for Plaintiffs 17 18 KELLEY, DRYE & WARREN 19 BY: JONATHAN GLASSER, ESQ. 20 101 Park Avenue 21 New York, New York 10178 22 (212) 808-7583 23 Attorneys for Defendant UNION CARBIDE 24 25 1 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 APPEARANCES (continued): 2 3 LOCKE, REYNOLDS 4 BY: MICHAEL BERGIN, ESQ. 5 1000 Capitol Center South 6 201 North Illinois Street 7 Indianapolis, Indiana 46204 8 Attorneys for Defendants UNION CARBIDE and 9 USG CORPORATION 10 11 WOODEN & McLAUGHLIN 12 BY: JAMES M. SNYDER, ESQ. 13 1600 Capitol Center South 14 201 North Illinois Street 15 Indianapolis, Indiana 46202 16 Attorneys for Defendant FLINCOTE 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2 3 4 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 InF, 1 2 3 WITNESS 4 CARLO MARTINO 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 INDEX EXAMINATION BY MR. BOITER MR. BERGIN PAGE 7,126,144 114,143 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 InFrye 1 CARLO MARTINO, 2 125 River Road, Somerville, New Jersey, having 3 been first duly sworn, was examined and 4 testified as follows: 5 EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. BOITER: 7 Q. Mr. Martino, my name is Eric Boiter 8 and I'm representing the plaintiff. As you 9 know, we noticed your deposition this 10 afternoon. 11 I don't know if you've given a 12 deposition before. It's going to be a series 13 of questions I'm going to ask you and I'm going 14 to ask you to answer to the best of your 15 ability. If that's okay with you? 16 A. Yes, it is. 17 Q. If you don't understand a question 18 I ask, stop me and tell me you don't understand 19 it, it was a goofy question. If you don't hear 20 it, just tell me to speak up a little bit. I 21 will try to keep my voice up, if you try to do 22 the same for me. 23 A. The speaker phone is not the best 24 and I am a little hard of hearing, so I may 25 have to do that. 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 InFrye 1 Q. If you need to take a break, just 2 let us know, if you need a rest or to go to the 3 bathroom. 4 If you can start by giving your 5 full name and address for the record, please. 6 A. Carlo Frances Martino, 7 M-A-R-T-I-N-O, 125 River Road, Somerville, 8 S-O-M-E-R-V-I-L-L-E, New Jersey 08876. 9 Q. A couple of minutes ago Mr. Glasser 10 indicated that you are retired. When did you 11 retire and who was the employer that you 12 retired from? 13 A. I retired the end of March in 1996. 14 I was working for Union Carbide at the 15 Piscataway location. That's usually called the 16 Bound Brook plant. 17 Q. We'll talk a little bit more about 18 your work at Union Carbide in a little bit. 19 Could you just briefly describe for us your 20 educational background, when you finished high 21 school and then what further education you had. 22 A. Yes. I graduated from the Brockway 23 High School -- that's in Pennsylvania where I 24 was born -- in 1944 and then enrolled in an 25 engineering course at Carnegie-Mellon 5 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 University. At that time it was known as 2 Carnegie Institute of Technology in Pittsburgh. 3 I received a BS degree in chemical engineering 4 from Carnegie-Mellon in 1948. My education 5 there was interrupted for one year because I 6 joined the Navy, US Navy. That was from 1945 to 7 1946. 8 I went to work for Union -- well, 9 at that time I went to work for the Bakelite 10 division of Union Carbide in Bound Brook. That 11 was August, 1948. 12 Q. So, that was working -- going to 13 work for Bakelite was the first job you had 14 after graduating from college? 15 A. Yes. And all of my career was at 16 that site, which was forth-seven years and 17 eight months. 18 Q. So, actually, from 1948 to 1996 you 19 worked at the Bound Brook plant? 20 A. That's right. 21 Q. That makes it simple. You got your 22 BS degree in chemical engineering. Have you 23 gotten any further degrees or technical 24 training, other than on-the-job training at 25 Union Carbide? 6 7 8 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 A. Well, on-the-job training, and we 2 had educational programs to keep up to date, 3 but nothing that led to another degree. 4 Q. Let's start in August of '48, then, 5 when you went to work for Bakelite and try to 6 get a little bit of the background in terms of 7 your work at Union Carbide. 8 When you started in August of 1948, 9 what were your job responsibilities? 10 A. My first assignment was as 11 production trainee. It consisted of being 12 assigned to a department in the plant for about 13 two or three weeks and then reassigned to 14 another. It was a training program whose 15 purpose was to make sure that those of us who 16 were just hired were acquainted with all of the 17 operations at that location. That lasted about 18 a year. 19 Q. Okay. And do you remember -- let me 20 phrase it this way. As best you can recall, 21 would you tell me what various types of 22 training you went through. When you went one 23 place for three weeks, what was that; when you 24 went somewhere else, what was that. Just some 25 idea of what was going on at the plant is what 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 I am asking. 2 A. We would be assigned to the 3 department head, who would formally assign us 4 to someone who worked for him. We would spend 5 those two or three weeks just following that 6 person around and observing what was being 7 done. In some cases we were given presentations 8 on the background of what was being made there, 9 a description of the process. We often would 10 spend time in the manufacturing operation 11 observing what the various operators did. 12 Q. Was the manufacturing operation 13 considered one of the departments? 14 A. No. It was -- it had many 15 departments. It was one of the main 16 manufacturing plants at that time. It had the 17 Bakelite phenolic resin manufacturing area, the 18 Bakelite phenolic molding material plant. It 19 made some of the raw materials, like 20 formaldehyde and later phenol. There was a 21 polystyrene plant there. A little bit later 22 there was a vinyl plant and a vinyl calendaring 23 operation. At one time there were 3,300 24 employees there. 25 It also was -- had a small part of 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 the research and development department there, 2 which -- and later that became -- was expanded 3 to be the center for R&D. 4 Q. Okay. So, you were about a year as 5 a production trainee. What did you then do 6 next? 7 A. I was transferred to the research 8 and development department and assigned to the 9 polystyrene section. That's a thermoplastic. 10 Are you familiar with the difference between 11 thermoplastic and thermoset? 12 Q. I am to some extent. What little I 13 know about it -- and correct me if I'm wrong - 14 that didn't have anything to do with the 15 Bakelite? 16 A. It's important in that we may be 17 referring to thermoset and thermoplastic 18 materials. 19 Q. Why don't you explain what you mean 20 when you use those two terms. 21 A. The thermosetting materials are 22 plastics that will cure when they're molded, 23 and they cannot be melted and reformed. The 24 thermoplastic- 25 Q. That would be like Bakelite, as I 9 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 understand it? 2 A. That's right. Bakelite is one of 3 the first that fit into that category. 4 Thermoplastic resins can be formed under heat 5 and whatever you make can be reheated and 6 melted and reformed again if you want to. We 7 had both thermoset and thermoplastic being 8 manufactured at that location. 9 Q. And when you went into their 10 research and development, you were involved 11 initially with the thermoplastics? 12 A. Yes, for the first -- up until 13 1959. 14 Q. For about 10 years, from about late 15 '49, early '50, to '59, did you say? 16 A. '59, yes. 17 Q. You had beeninvolvedwith the 18 thermoplastics? 19 A. I was involved with the polystyrene 20 thermoplastics until 1959. Then I was appointed 21 to a group manager position. 22 Q. During the period from-- is it 23 okay if I just call it '49 to '59 for that 24 period you were doing the thermoplastics? 25 A. That's right. 10 11 12 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 Q. From the '49 to '59 time period 2 when you were involved in thermoplastics did 3 you have any responsibilities or duties with 4 regard to Bakelite? 5 A. Not during that time. I worked 6 nearby the people who did, so I was familiar 7 with the product during that time, but I was 8 not involved in doing anything with it. 9 Q. Describe for me what your 10 familiarity with the Bakelite was from '49 to 11 '59. 12 A. During that time would be 13 information that I -- business type information 14 which was available to us, presented at sales 15 meetings. Both -- all groups were represented 16 there, and we would hear presentations on what 17 was happening and all the businesses. There 18 would also be technical presentations to our 19 management organization, and there would be 20 people giving technical presentations both on 21 -- on all products. 22 Q. In that period of time, did you 23 have familiarity with formulations of the 24 products and the fillers that were used in the 25 products and that type of information? 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 A. In a general way. I knew what was 2 being used. I at the time did not get into the 3 technical details. I didn't do any formulation 4 at that time in the Bakelite product area. 5 Q. Are you familiar with whether or 6 not asbestos was used as a filler in some of 7 the Bakelite in the '49 to '59 time frame? 8 A. Not in detail, no. 9 Q. But you were aware it was being 10 used as a filler? 11 A. I knew it was a filler, among many. 12 Q. That's what I'm asking. You knew it 13 was a filler. If I started asking you which 14 products or how much or whatever, would you 15 have any information during that period of 16 time? 17 A. Not during that time, but as I 18 assume -- as we proceed, I did manage that area 19 for about 14 years, so the products that I 20 inherited didn't start when I became the group 21 manager there. They started before. So I had to 22 learn what was done before. 23 Q. We will get to that in a minute. 24 I'm really -- if it's possible to put yourself 25 in that position, I want to know what you knew 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 in that 10-year period before you moved on to 2 become group manager. 3 A. In the Bakelite area? 4 Q. What you knew about Bakelite in the 5 '49 to '59 time period. You knew asbestos was 6 used as a filler, for example, and that's all 7 you kind of indicated you knew about the 8 asbestos used during the period of time from 9 '49 to '59, before you became a group 10 manager. 11 MR. BERGIN: I'm going to object to 12 the form because it's a little confusing. You 13 are suggesting a time period and it's not clear 14 from the time period whether you are saying at 15 that point in time did he know, or did he know 16 what was done in that point of time, whether he 17 knew it then or later he learned. 18 Q. What I'm talking about is what you 19 knew at that point in time from '49 to '59. You 20 indicated that you knew asbestos was a filler. 21 What else -- during that period of time, '49 to 22 '59, what else did you know about asbestos and 23 Bakelite? 24 A. Only that it could be used as a 25 filler, and I knew enough about the process, 13 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 the thermosetting processes and the 2 manufacturing methods, to know how it was used 3 by customers. It's difficult for me to answer 4 that because a lot of my knowledge came 5 afterwards and I can't say, well, how much of 6 that was available before 1959 and how much was 7 available after. It's a long time. 8 Q. I understand that. I really do. I 9 am really just sort of trying to get a feel - 10 from '49 to '59 I know you are doing 11 thermoplastics -- just how much information you 12 felt you knew andhow knowledgeable you were 13 during that ten-year period. 14 A. For example, BMG 5000, which is a 15 wood flour filled molding material, I knew that 16 was being made during that period of time and I 17 knew how it was being used. 18 As a production trainee, I spent 19 several months in the various departments in 20 that area. So, I was familiar withhow the 21 product was made and what it looked like and 22 who the large customers were. So, it wasn't 23 that I was without knowledge. The people who 24 worked in the area next to me, who are in the 25 same building, were working on the products. 14 15 16 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 Q. Okay. Well, my next questions I am 2 not going to limit by time. I would like for 3 you to use knowledge of that period from '49 to 4 '59 or that you had gained since that time at 5 Union Carbide. Besides the BMG 5000, what other 6 Bakelite products, by that numerical 7 designation, were being manufactured in the '49 8 to '59 time period? 9 A. There was an BMG 7000, which was 10 another wood flour filled material. 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. BMG 2028, which was a cotton flock 13 filling material. Those were the popular ones. 14 BMG 5498. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. Those numbers werethe numbers I 17 heard, and variations of those. I don't 18 remember all the numbers. Those were the 19 numbers that were used in a lot of the 20 technical applications I sat in on. I knew from 21 what was being discussed where they were being 22 used. 23 Q. Let's talkfor aminute while we're 24 on these numbers what the numbers in the 25 designations and all that means. If you could 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 just kind of walk me through what that 2 designation means. For instance, like the BMG, 3 is that one term or each letter for a different 4 term? 5 A. We had a nomenclature system that 6 applied to both thermosets and thermoplastics. 7 The B stands for Bakelite in the case of the 8 phenolics. 9 M stands for molding material. 10 That's the second letter. 11 The third letter is to designate 12 the granulation, being the product form. If 13 it's G, that's granular. If it's R, it would be 14 a coarser granulation that -- designed for 15 injection, molding of thermosets. 16 And then the fourth letter 17 designated whether it was a variation of the 18 original product. By variation I mean minor 19 variation now. In other words, the composition 20 didn't change. It might have been processed a 21 little differently. 22 And the numbers were four-digit. 23 Now, if it's Bakelite, if it's BR, that means 24 it's a Bakelite resin. 25 Q. Besides a BM or a BR, were there 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 any other designations in those first two 2 letters? 3 A. For the other thermoplastics, they 4 each had their own letter. For example, 5 polyethylene was a D. Polystyrene I think was 6 an S. 7 Q. Explain to the jury the difference 8 between Bakelite molding and Bakelite resin. 9 A. Bakelite resin is the plastic that 10 you start with. It's a resin made by reacting 11 phenol and formaldehyde under very controlled 12 conditions in a large reactor. Under those 13 conditions you get the formaldehyde linking the 14 phenol unit to another phenol unit and you can 15 build a chain, just like a chain, one after 16 another, each link being a phenol group. 17 In low molecular weights or short 18 chains the product when it cools is a liquid. 19 In the high molecular weights when it cools it 20 becomes a very glassy solid. Unless a 21 cross-linking agent is added, it will stay 22 glassy. In other words, you could heat and cool 23 it and -- you can cool it and then reheat it 24 and it will melt again. That resin does not 25 contain any additives. The problem is that by 17 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 itself it's glassy and brittle. 2 It's really a good adhesive. That's 3 where all its applications derive from. The 4 resin is a very good adhesive for making 5 plywood, gluing the layers together, especially 6 for outdoor use, because it's very water 7 resistant. It's very good for binding various 8 fillers and fibers together. It's also used as 9 a coating and varnish, so the broad spectrum of 10 applications. 11 Union Carbide and the competitors 12 made that resin and sold it to customers who 13 would take the resin and make their own 14 products from it. 15 Another big use is decorative 16 laminates, like are used to make countertops - 17 to cover your countertops in the kitchen and 18 bathroom. Typical -- well, the trade name for 19 that is Formica. You are probably familiar with 20 that. 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. That's a process where paper is 23 dipped into the phenolic resin, dried, and then 24 the sheets are cut to size and stacked in 25 presses, then cured under heat and pressure to 18 19 20 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 form that sheet. For Formica they put a printed 2 decorative cover on it. Hundreds and hundreds 3 and hundreds of uses. 4 Now, the phenolic molding business 5 was a separate department from the resin 6 business. In effect, we were a customer of the 7 phenolic resin business. We would take the 8 solid resin, pulverize it and blend it with 9 wood flour, and that was the most common 10 filler. It was ground for wood flour. The wood 11 flour would give the glassy resin strength 12 because of the fibrous nature of the wood, and 13 the phenolic would penetrate the wood and bond 14 well with it. 15 Now, along with the wood flour 16 would be colorants, cure accelerators, the 17 cross-linking agent, which was hexamethone 18 tretamine, lubricants like stearates; and then 19 you could add to the wood flour, if you needed 20 more impact strength, cotton flock. That was a 21 very popular way of getting more toughness in 22 the resin. 23 If you wanted more water 24 resistance, then you put in mineral fillers. 25 We had a big choice there. You could use talc. 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 You could use calcium carbonate, mica. You 2 could use asbestos. And asbestos was used if 3 you needed a fibrous mineral filler. Of the 4 mineral fillers, it was probably the only one 5 that was fibrous enough to give us a little 6 improvement in strength. 7 In other processes glass fiber is 8 used, but we could not use that. Let me add one 9 more thing. That blend was -- do you want me to 10 continue to describe the process? 11 Q. Sure. I'd be glad for you to. 12 A. That blend was then fed down to a 13 set of heated rolls, huge rolls. One roll would 14 turn faster than the other. And on those rolls 15 the resin would melt and mix -- coat all the 16 other ingredients. 17 Then that -- much like making bread 18 dough. This process is very similar. That would 19 then come off in a sheet onto a conveyor belt. 20 That sheet would then be fed up into a 21 granulator. In the granulator it would be 22 chopped up into small particles. 23 Then that would passed over some 24 screens where we take out the fine particles 25 and take out the coarse particles and recycle 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 them into the process. And the product that we 2 wanted would then be taken over into -- and 3 packed out into various types of containers. 4 It looked like a coarse sand at 5 that stage and it was black or brown. Those 6 were your primary choice of colors. It was very 7 difficult to put coloring into the product 8 other than that, because without color it was 9 just a dark brown shade. You could not make a 10 white or a gray. You could, but it would be 11 very expensive. That's a product we sold to our 12 customer. 13 They then would take it and put it 14 into their equipment to form a shape out of it, 15 whatever they wanted to make -- washing machine 16 agitator, steam iron, pot handle. 17 Q. Okay. Now explain to me, if you 18 can, so I understand the difference between the 19 two products. Maybe you just misunderstood. 20 When you talk about taking the solid resin, 21 pulverizing it and blending it with some 22 filler, you mentioned a process where then it 23 went down the heated rolls, and I guess I'm 24 sort of going back to the concept that you 25 talked about earlier. 21 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 With the thermosetting, is it just 2 that this was not a high enough heat 3 temperature to thermoset or was something done 4 later, because as I understood what you said, 5 once the customer took your end product and 6 molded it intosomething, that was it? 7 A. That's right. When it was being 8 processed on the rolls, the temperatures were 9 kept low enough, and of course the time -- we 10 had to control the timing so that you would not 11 get that curing on the rolls. If somebody made 12 a mistake and raised the temperature too high 13 on the rolls, then they ended up with a solid 14 material they had to break up and get rid of. 15 So, it still had some life in it 16 when it ended up being a granular product in a 17 bag. Then the customer could at that point 18 still melt it and shape it, form it into a 19 shape. 20 Q. Can you give me some idea of the 21 temperatures being different, where you are 22 keeping it low enough versus what temperature 23 customers would be curing it at? 24 A. The mold temperatures were usually 25 around 350 degrees Fahrenheit. For large parts 22 23 24 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 where you wanted to keep the material flowing 2 for a longer period of time, you probably could 3 drop it to 325. And you had to use high 4 pressures in order to make it flow. 5 Q. Was there an upper temperature 6 limit for which you could use your granular 7 product? 8 MR. GLASSER: Objection. At what 9 point in the process? 10 MR. BOITER: For the customer. I 11 will ask another question. No problem. 12 MR. BERGIN: I would like to object 13 to the form for this reason. 14 MR. BOITER: I withdraw the question 15 so you don't have to object to the form. 16 MR. BERGIN: Okay. 17 Q. If I ordered a bag of your granular 18 products -- let's say I ordered your BMG 5000. 19 Is there an upper temperature limit at which I 20 could work with it? 21 A. As long as it's in the bag? 22 Q. No, when I start the molding 23 process. 24 A. Oh, in the molding process, it's a 25 time-temperature relationship. The higher the 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 temperature, the shorter the time you have to 2 work with it, so that the molder also has to 3 carefully control time and temperature when he 4 forms it. 5 We also made the material available 6 in what we said were different grades, which 7 generally meant that the material had a little 8 more resin in it so it gave the customer a 9 little more time to -- before it cured or the 10 material would flow a little further. So, the 11 process to make it and the process to mold it 12 required control of conditions, and people in 13 the industry were well aware of that, and, of 14 course, of the right technology to do it. 15 Q. Sure. And I guess I was sort of 16 thinking back to your cooking and bread dough 17 analogy. Is there a point at which you turn it 18 up so high that you burnt the bread, so to 19 speak? 20 A. You can do that in the mold. 21 Q. It would just be impractical to use 22 it in a process mold temperature? 23 A. No, no. If you had the temperature 24 too high -- let's say you were making a washing 25 machine agitator -- you would end up with an 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 incomplete part. You might nothave the fin, 2 the blade mold itself, or you end up with 3 blades that are half filled. It's not a 4 disaster. You just take that part and throw it 5 away and mold another oneafter you lower your 6 temperature. 7 Often that is a way that the 8 operator determines what the optimum 9 temperature was going to be. There was always a 10 temptation to raise the temperature to get the 11 part out faster. That was the way they -- parts 12 per hour were very important as far as the 13 customer was concerned. 14 Q. I may be just inartfully asking the 15 question. Was there a mold temperature at which 16 it was just impractical to work with this 17 product? 18 A. Over 400 degrees Fahrenheit would 19 be difficult. I won't say it can't be done. If 20 you had a very fast machine and a small part it 21 could be done. But I seldom saw people molding 22 higher than that. 23 Q. Would the temperature at which you 24 could work with it have anything to do with the 25 type of filler that is put in or is this purely 25 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 the chemistry of working with the phenolic 2 resin? 3 A. It's the chemistry of working with 4 the phenolic resin. 5 Q. How -- maybe not how, but was there 6 some sort of designation, be it a letter or 7 number, used to represent the different grades 8 of the Bakelite or was that just how all the 9 different numbers came about? 10 A. No. After the designation, the BMG 11 5000, there would be a color designation -- a 12 BK for black, BN for brown. Then as I recall 13 there was a grade number. It would be followed 14 by grade 9, grade 12, grade 15. The higher the 15 number, the slower the flow. The customer would 16 designate the grade when he ordered. 17 That was standard throughout the 18 industry. Our competitors did exactly the same 19 thing. They didn't use the same product 20 designation, but they did use the flow system. 21 Q. You mentioned four products -- the 22 BMG 5000, 7000, 2808 and 5498. If we sort of 23 encompass the entire period of time that you 24 were at Union Carbide, was there ever a 25 specific numerical designation for the Bakelite 26 27 28 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 InF, 1 that contained asbestos as a filler? 2 A. No. The designations were not based 3 on the filler that was in there. The 4 designation, the first number was usually an 5 indication of the type of resin you used in the 6 product. It didn't make any difference what 7 filler you used. 8 Q. Okay. So the 5000 versus the 7000, 9 the five and the seven are just different 10 designations for different types of resin? 11 A. That's right. Just like we could 12 make a variety of molding compounds. To put it 13 in perspective, at the time I became group 14 manager of the Bakelite molded material and 15 laminating resins group, we had about 200 16 compounds, which were variations of filler and 17 resins and all sorts of combinations. It's 18 limitless, what you can do with the product, 19 and you could not tell what the fillers were 20 just by looking at the numbers. 21 Q. I have some other questions, but I 22 probably want to finish getting an idea of when 23 you worked and where you worked before we go 24 into those. I think you said it was '59. I 25 believe from '49 to '59 you were in 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 InFrye 1 thermoplastics. What happened in '59? 2 A. In '59 I was promoted to group 3 manager and given responsibility for the 4 technical services of all the molding and 5 extrusion products that we made in Bound Brook. 6 And that was thermoplastics and thermoset 7 resins. In the thermoset resins were the 8 Bakelite phenolic compounds. 9 In 1960 I was asked to become the 10 group manager of the Bakelite phenolic molding 11 compounds and laminating resins group. The 12 responsibility there was not to just give the 13 customer technical service, but also to 14 formulate any new products or modify the old 15 ones in order to fit any new applications that 16 customers were interested in. And I was in that 17 position for 14 years. 18 It was at that time I became -- my 19 knowledge of the industry grew in considerable 20 depth. I got to know the customers and 21 applications and uses and properties and et 22 cetera. 23 Q. That would take us -- that group 24 manager would take us up 14 years to about 25 1974. What happened in '74, then? Did you 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 InFrye 1 transfer? 2 A. I was transferred to become group 3 manager of a polyethylene molding group. 4 Polyethylene is another thermoplastic. That's 5 used for detergent bottles, dish pans, Glad 6 Wrap, bottle caps. Probably one of the most 7 widely used plastics today. 8 MR. GLASSER: Would this be an okay 9 time for about two minutes. 10 (Whereupon, there was a brief 11 recess.) 12 Q. I think when we took a break you 13 had just indicated and said before you became a 14 new group manager. Does that coincide -- let me 15 ask you this. At what point in time did Union 16 Carbide cease to make Bakelite? 17 A. I think it was a year later, 1975. 18 Q. So, it was still going when you 19 left? 20 A. Yes, it was. 21 Q. '74 forward, I guess, did you sort 22 of keep up with what was going on in Bakelite? 23 A. I was very busy in my new job, so 24 it was occasional conversations. 25 Q. Can you sort of give me in a 29 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 nutshell what happened from '74 to retirement, 2 just generally, in terms of your job 3 responsibilities. 4 A. In terms of my job? 5 Q. Right. 6 A. The activities were similar to what 7 I was doing in the other groups, but with a 8 different product. 9 Q. From '74 until you retired, did you 10 remain the same group manager? 11 A. No. I was assigned as group manager 12 to a variety of other businesses, polyethylene 13 business, including the licensing business. 14 Q. That would have been true up until 15 you retired? 16 A. I was promoted to associate 17 director of research and development in 1995. 18 Q. You had indicated earlier that when 19 you took over, I guess for the group manager of 20 Bakelite, there were about 200 different 21 compounds that they made? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Was that an increase or decrease 24 from the number that they had when you took 25 over as group manager? 30 31 32 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 A. I can't answer that. I'm not sure. 2 My guess is that it was about the same. 3 Q. During the period, I guess, from 4 '60 to '74, during the 14 years that you were 5 there -- and if you had to break them down into 6 subyears you can do that for me. But what was 7 the percentage generally of the Bakelite 8 compounds which contained asbestos, versus the 9 Bakelite compounds which did not contain 10 asbestos? 11 A. There were about, oh, a dozen or so 12 that contained asbestos. The others did not. 13 Q. Do you remember during that period 14 -- well, actually -- well, let's start off by 15 limiting it to the period from '60 to '74, any 16 of the designations for any of the 17 asbestos-containing Bakelite? 18 A. Could you repeat that, please. 19 Q. Sure. What I'm talking about when I 20 say this designation, like the BMG numbers or 21 whatever they called it. Do you recall what 22 the name was for the asbestos-containing 23 compound? 24 A. BMG 5138, 2035, 5020, 5033. Did I 25 mention 2035? 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Fr 1 Q. Yes, sir. 2 A. 2035. You are really challenging my 3 memory. Those were the popular ones. 4 Q. Any others you can think of? 5 A. Not at this time, no. 6 Q. And there were about eight others 7 and you just can't recall the numbers? 8 A. Right, that's correct. It's about 9 30 years , so I'm surprised I remember that 10 many. 11 Q. So, about a dozen out of 200? 12 A. That's right. 13 Q. During that same period of time 14 from '60 to '74, what was the percentage 15 production of the asbestos-containing versus 16 the non-asbestos-containing? 17 A. I didn't keep a record of the 18 yearly production of each of the products, so I 19 could only guess that it was in proportion to 20 the number of products. 21 Q. Okay. Who would have been the 22 person who would have kept the yearly 23 production numbers? 24 A. The marketing manager or the 25 production manager. 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 Q. Okay. Now, in terms of your 2 responsibilities then as sort of the group 3 manager, did you have any responsibility for 4 the production stage? 5 A. I was responsible for the first 6 production runs of an experimental product. 7 Q. Sort of explain to me what that 8 means. 9 A. We would first develop the product 10 on a small scale in the laboratory and make 11 sufficient quantities for initial tests in the 12 customer's plant. If the customer liked it and 13 ordered, say, 10,000 pounds, we would have to 14 go into the manufacturing facility to make it. 15 And the procedure was to put in a 16 request for a production run. When that was 17 scheduled, have people from research and 18 development there to supervise how it was run 19 and determine whether there were any 20 manufacturing problems in making it. 21 Q. Was that actually a production run 22 in your customer's facility? 23 A. No, this would be in our own plant 24 making it in our own plant. Now, the sample we 25 made in the laboratory, that was taken out to 33 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 the customer and run in his plant. That would 2 be the initial confirmation as to whether the 3 product worked or not. 4 Q. So, what would a customer tell you 5 in terms of what they were doing that would 6 allow you, then, to make your first production 7 run? 8 A. Usually the customer will have 9 asked for a particular performance requirement, 10 and we would have tried to meet that. If we 11 thought we did in the lab, then we would go out 12 and try to confirm it in his equipment. If we 13 did and he liked it, he would order more. If 14 not, we had to go back and work some more. 15 Q. There was a squeak and I may have 16 misunderstood. Did you say you would go out to 17 his facility to make sure it worked? 18 A. Someone from our group or I would 19 go to the customer's plant and actually see it 20 molded. 21 Q. And that would be after you did 22 your first production run? 23 A. No, we would do that with the 24 laboratory sample first. 25 Q. You do your first laboratory 34 35 36 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 sample. You satisfy yourself and someone would 2 go out at the plant for their production run 3 when they started it? 4 A. That's right. Production run, 5 usually the sample was about a hundred pounds. 6 That would usually, depending on the part, be 7 an hour production. 8 Q. During that period of time from '60 9 to '74, did you have someone from your group 10 ever go to any of the Delco Remy plants to do 11 these production runs? 12 A. I only recall one experimental 13 sample being sent to them, and I don't remember 14 anybody going with it. Usually the customer 15 would request somebody come out when they were 16 ready to run it. 17 Q. What experimental sample do you 18 recall? 19 A. BMG 5020. 20 Q. And what about that made it 21 experimental, at the time anyway? 22 A. Well, up until that time the 23 products that they were using had -- were wood 24 flour filled, and this one had five percent 25 asbestos in it. 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 Q. Now, how do you know that all - 2 what they were using up to that time was wood 3 flour filled? 4 A. It's basing that just on the 5 products that they were buying from us. We were 6 not their only supplier. 7 Q. What records do you have -- well, 8 let me back up. We have records from '66. What 9 records do you have from '60 to '66 that allow 10 you to know that? 11 A. There were some call reports that 12 indicated what products they were buying at the 13 time from us. 14 Q. What type of report? 15 A. Call report. This is a salesman's 16 report on his visit to the customer. 17 MR. BOITER: Do we have these call 18 reports, Mike, Mike Bergin? Is Mike Bergin 19 there? 20 MR. BERGIN: Yes. I don't know if I 21 have what he's referring to. 22 Q. Explain to me what you're talking 23 about when you say what this call report is and 24 where you have it. 25 A. I don't have it. I remember -- 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 that's where we got our information, if we 2 hadn't visited the customer. I'm just 3 responding to your question, where did I see 4 the products that they were buying. 5 Q. And it's your recollection, then, 6 from the call reports from '60 to '66 that you 7 can say with certainty that they weren't buying 8 any asbestos-containing Bakelite products, 9 compounds? 10 A. The numbers I saw did not. 11 Q. Did you see all the numbers? 12 A. The only ones that were mentioned 13 in the report, no way I could -- I didn't look 14 into it any further than that. 15 Q. I guess what I'm asking, did you 16 see all the call reports? 17 A. I would get a copy of all the call 18 reports, yes. 19 Q. What specifically did the call 20 report have in it? 21 A. That the 5276 was being molded into 22 -- in one of the plants, and the 5507 was 23 being molded in the other plant. 24 Q. I guess what I'm asking is what 25 specifically did the call report have on it. 37 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 Did it have quantity, type, order dates? What 2 sort of information did it have? 3 A. No. A call report is just a summary 4 of the salesman's visit when he visits a 5 customer. We were trying to get more of their 6 business. 7 Q. How many customers did you guys 8 have? By you, I'm talking about Union Carbide, 9 Bakelite. 10 A. That I would have to give you a 11 rough estimate because I didn't keep track of 12 everyone. I would be familiar with those who 13 were asking for technicalinformation or 14 requested our assistance. 15 Q. A rough estimate is fine, just some 16 idea. 17 MR. GLASSER: Objection. What time 18 frame? Are you talking about only the phenolic 19 compound or other things that Bakelite made? 20 MR. BOITER: I am limiting it to '60 21 to '74. I'm actually just talking about 22 Bakelite products. 23 Q. Is it more than 100 customers? 24 A. My belief was that it was at least 25 100. 38 39 40 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 Q. More than 500? 2 A. I don't think it was that large, 3 but I don't access to those records. 4 Q. I guess what I'm trying to figure 5 out is why was it that out of 100 plus 6 customers that you are certain that the Delco 7 Remy plants weren't getting any 8 asbestos-containing Bakelite from '60 to '74. 9 A. Those were the only products that 10 were mentioned being used by them. I would 11 assume that if there were others it would have 12 also appeared in that report. 13 Q. If there was another customer, it 14 would have been a customer of the Bakelite 15 group at that time? 16 A. Another customer? 17 Q. Yes, sir, just any customer. 18 A. Square D. 19 Q. Did Square D ever use any of the 20 asbestos-containing compounds from '60 to '74? 21 A. I don't think so. 22 Q. Can you say for sure that they did 23 or didn't? 24 A. I'm trying to recall. They may have 25 been sampled with the 5020 also. 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 Q. Have you talked to anyone about 2 whether or not the asbestos-containing Bakelite 3 was used at Delco Remy within the past six 4 months? 5 A. I am sorry. Could you repeat that 6 question, please. 7 Q. In the past six months -- it may 8 not be that long. I don't know when you were 9 contacted about testifying in this case. In the 10 last six months or so have you talked to anyone 11 or had any discussions as to whether or not 12 they had asbestos-containing Bakelite at Delco 13 Remy from '60 to '74? 14 MR. BERGIN: The question could also 15 include confidential communications with 16 counsel. I'm going to object to the extent it 17 may deal with conversations with counsel on the 18 grounds that it's privileged. 19 MR. BOITER: What he said clearly is 20 privileged, but if he had a conversation about 21 it, then it's not. 22 MR. BERGIN: I think the 23 conversations he has with counsel is 24 privileged. 25 Q. Let's leave conversations with 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 counsel out. Any conversations with anyone 2 else? 3 A. Conversations with anyone other 4 than the people present here? 5 Q. Yes, sir. 6 A. No. 7 Q. Have the people who are the people 8 who are present there shown you any call 9 reports from the last six months? 10 A. No, I have not. Repeat that 11 question again. Make sure I understood it. 12 Q. I was asking you if they had showed 13 you any of the call results in the last six 14 months. 15 A. The call results? 16 Q. The call reports. I'm sorry. The 17 call reports are what I'm talking about. 18 MR. GLASSER: Objection. Vague. 19 Q. What documents, if any, have you 20 looked at in preparation for this deposition or 21 in preparation for refreshing your knowledge 22 about sales to Delco Remy? 23 A. I've taken a look at papers that I 24 had in my possession with regard to the 25 business, which weren't too helpful. Most of 41 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 what I'm giving you is recollection. 2 Q. Does that mean other than the 3 papers in your possession, which weren't very 4 helpful, you haven't looked at anything else? 5 A. I have no papers in my possession, 6 no call reports. 7 Q. Sure. I understand that. I'm just 8 asking what else you looked at other than the 9 papers that were in your possession, if you've 10 looked at anything at all. 11 A. No. 12 Q. You didn'tlook atanything? 13 A. No, no. I'm no longer at the plant, 14 so I don't have access to any of that. 15 Q. I understand. I want to make sure 16 there hasn't been anything you looked at. 17 A. No. 18 MR. BERGIN: Excuse me. I think the 19 witness previously disclosed that he received a 20 partial transcript of Mr. Frye, that he 21 received the transcript by e-mail and printed 22 part of it and looked at it. 23 MR. BOITER: I apologize. I thought 24 Jonathan was the one who told us that he had 25 printer problems. 42 43 44 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 InF, 1 MR. BERGIN: I believe that was the 2 witness. 3 MR. BOITER: I'm sorry. 4 Q. Was there a point in time when 5 African blue asbestos was used in Bakelite? 6 A. Would you repeat that, please. 7 Q. Was there a period of time when 8 African blue asbestos was used in Bakelite? 9 A. Not in the hot compounded product, 10 no. 11 Q. Explain to me what that means. 12 A. In that process that I described 13 where the fillers were blended and the material 14 was processed on hot rolls, it was not used in 15 that process. 16 Q. What process was it used in? 17 A. There was one product that was a 18 descendant from the past where the Cape Blue 19 asbestos was blended with some phenolic resin. 20 Q. When you say a descendant from the 21 past, what are you talking about? 22 A. It was a product that was very 23 difficult to make and very difficult to use and 24 had been developed because there were no other 25 fibrous mineral reinforcing fillers available 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 InFrye 1 at the time. It resembled insulation, attic 2 insulation. It was replaced as soon as the 3 Fiberite glass-filled reinforced product came 4 on the market by the molders because of the 5 difficulty they had in molding with it. 6 Q. About when would that have been? 7 A. That would have been in the '50s. 8 Q. So, the products with the African 9 blue, when you say descended from the past, 10 you're talking about in the '40s and '50s? 11 That's when it would have been used? 12 A. I would guess in the '40s. It's 13 like trying to stuff a bunch of feathers in a 14 mold. It was not at all popular. It was made 15 in separate facilities. 16 Q. Where were those facilities? 17 A. In another part of the building. 18 Q. Did it have a different name for 19 that part of the building? How did you identify 20 that part of the building? 21 A. They had department numbers, which 22 I don't recall. 23 Q. What was it about that department 24 that made it appropriate for that compound to 25 be developed there? 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 InFrye 1 A. They had the -- since it was a dry 2 blend -- well, it was a ball milled product, so 3 they had a ball mill there. 4 Q. Now you are going to have to 5 definitely tell me what a ball mill is. 6 A. It's a large blender. Instead of 7 paddle wheels or ribbons in it, it has ceramic 8 balls, and it pulverizes the resin and 9 distributes it with the product. Apparently 10 that's the only way they could get a good 11 distribution on a matted material like that. 12 Q. Did it then go through that rolling 13 process you talked about earlier? 14 A. Did it go through what? 15 Q. Once it was mixed up in the 16 blender, did it then go through that roller 17 process you talked about earlier? 18 A. No, it would be sold as is. 19 Q. In -- if the '50s is the best date 20 you can give me, that's fine. But if you can 21 pinpoint it closer, what is your recollection 22 of when Union Carbide discontinued the Bakelite 23 that had the African blue? 24 A. I think it was in the early '60s, 25 maybe mid-'60s. The facilities were often idle. 45 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 Most of our -- I never saw it in any of the 2 plants that I visited, so I assume it was 3 replaced by that time by the Fiberite 4 materials. 5 Q. Did you have any part in the 6 decision-making todiscontinue that? 7 A. No, that was a business decision. 8 Q. Bakelite, was that actually a 9 trademark thatUnion Carbidehad, if you know 10 what I'm saying? Was Bakelite something that 11 was a trademark name? 12 A. I don't know whether it was a 13 registered trademark or not because it goes 14 back so many years. The phenolic resin was 15 developed in the early 1900s. Bakelite was the 16 first plastic discovered, so it became widely 17 known. 18 Q. Unless I'm mistaken, I think the 19 gentleman who invented it, created it or 20 actually came up with it was named Bakelite? 21 A. Baekeland was his name. 22 Q. I knew it was something similar to 23 the product name. Were there any patents on the 24 Bakelite? 25 A. On the basic invention, yes. Dr. 46 47 48 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 InF, 1 Baekeland had a patent on the resin, and that 2 expired in 1927. 3 Q. Were any of the ensuing compounds 4 that were made ever trademarked -- or patented, 5 rather? 6 A. I can't answer that. They could 7 have been, but I'm not familiar with that. 8 Q. You don't have any Bakelite 9 compound patents in your name, do you? 10 A. No, I don't. 11 Q. In terms of -- I guess is it fair 12 to say if something was changed about the 13 product it would be considered a different 14 formulation? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Do you recall-17 A. Well, let me clarify that a bit. If 18 any of the ingredients were changed, if we 19 rolled it a little longer or a little less or 20 double-compounded it, it would retain the same 21 number and just have a different letter in the 22 fourth position. 23 Q. What's the earliestproduct 24 formulation that you recall seeing and knowing 25 specifically the ingredients? 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 InFrye 1 A. Probably BMG 5000. 2 Q. Do you recall when BMG 5000 first 3 started being used, that formulation? 4 A. In the 1950s it existed. 5 Q. When shipping the Bakelite products 6 to the company, how were these products 7 packaged? 8 A. Would you repeat that, please. 9 Q. You make your compound for shipment 10 to a customer. How was it packaged to ship the 11 product to a company, the Bakelite compound? 12 MR. BERGIN: I'm going to object to 13 the question only because it doesn't specify 14 either product type or point in time. I think 15 those go to the form. 16 Q. Let's start from -- let's start 17 what information you have from '49 to '59. Do 18 you recall from '49 to '59 how Bakelite 19 compounds were packaged and shipped to 20 customers? 21 A. One common form was a large drum. 22 Q. When you say large drum, how large 23 a drum? 24 A. It would hold about 200 pounds of 25 material, probably three feet high, almost two 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 InFrye 1 feet in diameter. 2 Q. Would it have any writing on the 3 outside of it? 4 A. Yes, it would have theBakelite 5 label. And the material was also packaged in 6 bags, 50-pound bags. 7 Q. 50-pound bags? 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. From '60 to '74, did the packaging 10 change? 11 A. The drums were eliminated and 12 replaced by gaylords. 13 Q. That brings to mind two questions. 14 First, when were the drums replaced that you 15 can recall? 16 A. I don't have the exact date on 17 that. 18 Q. And the second question would be 19 what is a gaylord? 20 A. A gaylord is a big cardboard box on 21 a pallet. It holds almost a thousand pounds. 22 Q. Would the drums have been 23 eliminated by, say, 1975 on? 24 A. Yes. They could have been 25 eliminated much sooner than that, because I 49 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 don't recall seeing them in the '60s either. 2 They were expensive. 3 Q. In terms of the drums versus the 4 bags, for instance, was there any distinction 5 in what was shipped one way or the other? 6 A. To use a gaylord, a customer had to 7 have a large volume requirement. 8 Q. That was probably a poorly stated 9 question. Would any of these formulations that 10 you mentioned back at the time you mentioned be 11 available for shipping either in a bag or a 12 drum? 13 A. Could you repeat that, please. 14 Q. Say, in the '49 to '59 time frame, 15 would any formulation of Bakelite that was 16 being manufactured for sale have been available 17 in both drum and bag size? 18 MR. BERGIN: Excuse me. Is your 19 question would any be involved or would all be 20 involved, available? 21 MR. BOITER: Would every. 22 A. Every one that was hot-compounded 23 was. 24 Q. If they weren't hot-compounded, how 25 were they available? 50 51 52 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 A. Both the bags and drums, and later 2 gaylords. 3 Q. So, you are saying if they were 4 hot-compounded? 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. If they weren't hot-compounded, how 7 were they available? 8 A. There was only one that wasn't. 9 That was the one you asked me about earlier. 10 Q. How was that shipped? 11 A. That was put in drums. 12 Q. Do you know the compound 13 designation for the Bakelite product that 14 contained the African blue? 15 A. Do I know the what? 16 Q. The number, the BMG whatever number 17 it would have. 18 A. I believe it would have been BMZ 19 5250. 20 Q. We didn't talk about a Z before. 21 What does this Z stand for? 22 A. The Z is, I mentioned earlier, the 23 form that it is made in -- powder, granular, 24 pulverized. The BMZ 5250 was a matted type 25 material. 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 Q. Matted? 2 A. Matted. It looked like feathers. 3 Q. And that's what the Z designation 4 was for? 5 A. More like an attic insulation. 6 Q. That's what the Z designation was 7 for? 8 A. Yes. That's the only product -- I 9 don't know of any other Z product. 10 Q. Do you have any knowledge about the 11 purchase of the raw asbestos that went into the 12 Bakelite products by Union Carbide? 13 A. The asbestos was purchased from 14 Carey Mines in Canada. That was the chrysotile 15 asbestos, which is what we used. 16 Q. What period of time do you believe 17 that to be the case? 18 A. Period of time? 19 Q. Yes, sir. 20 A. During the time I was responsible 21 for the group that was the source of supply. 22 Q. So, from '60 to '74? 23 A. Right. I don't know if it was used 24 prior to that time. I never heard of any other 25 supplier, you know, prior to '60. 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 Q. Could you -- and I may be assuming 2 something here that I shouldn't -- but I am 3 assuming if there were 12 different numbers for 4 the asbestos-containing products that meant 5 there were essentially 12 different 6 formulations. Can you give me some ideas of how 7 the formulation was different? Was it because 8 of asbestos content or was it because of some 9 other- 10 A. The content was five percent in all 11 of them. There may have been one eight percent, 12 but five percent was usually -- was the common 13 one. I would say probably all of them that we 14 were making in the '60s were five percent. 15 MR. GLASSER: Could we hold just one 16 second. The phone is ringing in the other room. 17 (Whereupon, there was a discussion 18 off the record.) 19 MR. GLASSER: The phone stopped 20 ringing. 21 Q. To your knowledge, in the '60s all 22 of those dozen formulations were five percent 23 asbestos? 24 A. Yes, except for theBMZ 5250. 25 Q. What was that? 53 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 A. It was probably around 40 percent, 2 maybe a little higher. Roughly there. 3 Q. I don't know if this question makes 4 sense, but that was five percent of what - 5 volume, weight? 6 A. A weight percent. 7 Q. Is there any way togive me some 8 idea aboutvolume, if thatmakes sense? In 9 other words, wasthephenolic resinheavier or 10 lighter than the asbestos? 11 A. The phenolic resin definitely is 12 lighter. The mineral fillers were the heaviest 13 of all the components. 14 Q. Generally speaking by volume, how 15 much was the metal fillers? 16 A. Since they were heavier, they would 17 be less than five percent. I can't remember the 18 specific gravity of wood flour versus asbestos. 19 Roughly one versus two, but the exact figure I 20 can't remember. 21 Q. Why is -- how does just 22 automatically five percent by weight make it a 23 smaller amount by volume? 24 A. Well, if it's heavier, you need - 25 if it's heavier, your specific gravity is 54 55 56 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 higher. That means for a given volume you end 2 up with more weight. It's grams per cubic 3 centimeter, I believe. 4 Q. When you were in school -- you 5 graduated in 1948 -- at that point in time did 6 you know that asbestos was a potentially 7 hazardous substance? 8 A. No, I did not. 9 Q. When did you first learn that? 10 A. When there was a lot of publicity 11 about the asbestos at Johns-Manville. Manville 12 is about five miles from where I live. 13 Q. Do you recall when that would have 14 been? 15 A. Around '68, 1968. 16 Q. Okay. 17 MR. BERGIN: Excuse me, I didn't 18 hear that date again. 19 MR. BOITER: 1968 is what the 20 witness said. 21 MR. BERGIN: Thank you. 22 Q. In any of the training updates or 23 any of the technical sessions that you went to, 24 when is the first time that anyone at Union 25 Carbide ever discussed with you the fact that 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 asbestos was a potentially hazardous substance' 2 A. At the same time that was 3 discussed, but the studies at that time 4 indicated that it was massive exposures over 5 long periods of time, and there were a lot of 6 discussions as to does that really apply to us 7 Q. Do you have that information? Did 8 you actually read those materials or were you 9 told that by Union Carbide? 10 A. Could you repeat that again, 11 please. 12 Q. You mentioned that it was your 13 belief -- and I don't know if I'm going to be 14 able to paraphrase you correctly -- but it was 15 something that would require massive exposures 16 to cause injuries. Was that something you read 17 or something Union Carbide told you? 18 A. No, this was studies that were 19 published. I recall picking one up and reading 20 it to get more information on what happened at 21 Johns-Manville. 22 Q. Do you recall what that study was 23 or what the publication was? 24 A. I can't remember the name of the 25 person who did the studies. It starts with an 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 S, I believe. 2 Q. Does Selikoff ring a bell? 3 A. That's it. 4 Q. Would that have been a publication 5 that you had atUnion Carbide or something you 6 went out andboughtor something yousubscribed 7 to? 8 A. I think I found -- it was 9 information that became available withinUnion 10 Carbide. 11 Q. Were there any publications that 12 you received or you subscribed to in 13 conjunction with your employment with Union 14 Carbide? 15 A. Would you repeat that again, 16 please. I didn't hear it. 17 Q. Publications, magazines, 18 professional subscriptions that you had in 19 conjunction with your employment with Union 20 Carbide. 21 A. Modern Plastics, Modern Plastics 22 Encyclopedia, Plastics Engineering. 23 Q. Any other publications available to 24 you through Union Carbide? 25 A. Of course we had a library. 57 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 Q. Do you recall what publications 2 were available in the library? 3 A. Any of the publications on plastics 4 and chemicals. If they didn't have them, we 5 could get them. 6 Q. Prior to approximately 1968, had 7 you ever heard of Irving Selikoff before? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Prior to 1968, had you ever heard 10 of Mary Witherpraise? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Have you heard of them since then? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Had you heard of Fletcher Drinker 15 prior to 1968? 16 A. No. 17 Q. How about after 1968? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Had you heard of Driesen prior to 20 1968? 21 A. Would you repeat that again, 22 please. 23 Q. Had you heard of Driesen prior to 24 1968? 25 A. No. 58 59 60 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 Q. How about since 1968? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Was there ever a point in time when 4 you had any type of testing done on the 5 Bakelite products? Let me withdraw that 6 question. Was there ever a point in time when 7 you sat down to do any testing of any of the 8 Bakelite products to determine whether or not 9 they released asbestos fibers during use? 10 MR. GLASSER: Objection. Vague as to 11 the meaning of the term "use." 12 MR. BERGIN: I'm going to make a 13 further objection on the grounds that the 14 question calls for any point in time up to the 15 present and is specific as to this witness, as 16 opposed to somebody else, and Mr. Frye 17 unequivocally stated that all of his 18 involvement was in the period from 1951 to '58. 19 So, the question as phrased is improper form 20 for failure to put in the appropriate 21 limitations of time. 22 MR. BOITER: I'm not going to put 23 any limitation of time as to when Mr. Frye was 24 working there at all, so you needn't worry 25 about that. 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 Q. What type of testing would the 2 facility at Bound Brook have been capable of 3 doing on a product, if you requested it? 4 A. It was common practice to determine 5 whether we met the OSHA limits on threshold 6 limit values for any material that was 7 considered or thought to be a potential hazard. 8 So, tests were run to determine whether any was 9 detected in the work environment. 10 Q. Was there ever any testing done to 11 determine the threshold value of the Bakelite 12 products in the manufacturing department? 13 A. In the manufacturing operation? I'm 14 speaking only for research and development now. 15 I had the air tested in my laboratory while one 16 of the laboratory assistants was performing a 17 molding operation with product containing five 18 percent asbestos in it. 19 Q. When was that done? 20 A. That was done in the late '60s. 21 Probably around '69. 22 Q. We will come back and talk about 23 that in just a minute. Do you know of any other 24 testing that was done regarding Bakelite and 25 whether or not it met the threshold limit 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 values in any circumstance? 2 A. Outside of my own laboratory? 3 Q. Any that you are aware of, be it 4 manufactured in their facility or that you 5 became aware of in a customer'splant. 6 Anywhere. Any other testing thatyou know 7 about. 8 A. I suspect that a lot was done in 9 the manufacturing department, butI wasn't 10 present and I am not familiar with the details. 11 Q. You have no idea one way or the 12 other? 13 MR. BERGIN: Objection to form of 14 the question. 15 A. At that period of time I'm sure it 16 was done. 17 Q. And you are sure it was done why? 18 A. Because there was an indication 19 that it might pose a hazard, so the safety 20 department would have insisted on tests to show 21 whether or not we were within the OSHA limits. 22 Q. Are you just assuming that that's 23 what they would have done? 24 A. I'm just saying that based on what 25 I have seen as common practice at Union 61 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 Carbide. 2 Q. As we sit here today, do you know 3 for a fact that that was done? 4 A. I have no paperwork nor saw any 5 correspondence. Let me put it this way. I see 6 no reason why it wouldn't have been done. 7 Q. I understand that, but my question 8 to you -- I'm not trying to be difficult. I 9 understand what you are saying. But do you 10 know for a fact whether it was or whether it 11 wasn't done? 12 A. I breathe the same air that they do 13 and I go into the manufacturing department as 14 well. So, it was as much of a concern to guard 15 my health, so we would certainly not want to 16 work in an environment that we considered 17 dangerous. There was no reason for us to 18 believe that it was. 19 Q. I understand that, and again with 20 counsel's permission, I will ask the question. 21 Do you know -- you are assuming that that is 22 probably what they would have done, but do you 23 know if that is what they did or didn't? 24 MR. BERGIN: Let me object to the 25 form. It's something I think you can correct. 62 63 64 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 InF, 1 When you say whether it was done, it's not at 2 all clear to me what you are asking him. Are 3 you saying does he know and did he observe that 4 industrial hygienists did do testing or testing 5 for a specific product? I'm not sure what you 6 are asking at this point. I think there has 7 been enough dialogue so that it's unclear. 8 MR. BOITER: I'm going to move to 9 strike his last answer as nonresponsive because 10 he did not indicate to me whether he knew for a 11 fact, yes or no. I am going to rephrase my 12 question based on your objection. 13 Q. My question is this. You indicated 14 that you did your own air testing to determine 15 a threshold limit value in your department. You 16 then went on to indicate that you believe it 17 would have been done in manufacturing. 18 My question to you is during the 19 entire period of time that you were working at 20 Union Carbide, do you know for a fact that 21 there was actually air testing done to 22 determine whether or not the threshold limit 23 value was being met in the manufacturing 24 department or any other department besides 25 yours at Union Carbide? 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 InFrye 1 A. There was discussion about putting 2 in bulk handling equipment for asbestos, and at 3 that time I remember we did meet the OSHA 4 limits. I did not see the paperwork. 5 Q. And you believe that you met the 6 OSHA limits why? 7 A. Because the results were that we 8 were well below. 9 Q. What results? 10 A. The results of the air samples 11 taken. I'm talking about my own lab, or are we 12 back to manufacturing? 13 Q. I want to talk about your lab. 14 A. My lab, the safety engineer called 15 me after he analyzed the air samples and said, 16 you are well below the threshold value. 17 MR. BOITER: I'm going to ask the 18 court reporter to read back my last question so 19 that we can try to answer that. Move to strike 20 the last answer. 21 (Whereupon, the reporter read back 22 the requested question.) 23 MR. BOITER: I want to go back to 24 the original question I asked about threshold 25 limit values other than his department at Union 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 InFrye 1 Carbide from '49 during the entire time he was 2 there. 3 Q. Let me reask the question to you. 4 I'm not talking about your department at all 5 and the tests you said were done in your 6 department. I'm talking about the period of 7 time you were at Union Carbide, the entire 8 period of time, do you know for a fact that 9 other air testing was done in other departments 10 to determine threshold limit values -- not your 11 department, but any other department in this 12 facility during the entire time you were there? 13 MR. BERGIN: I'm going to object to 14 the form of the question because it doesn't say 15 what threshold limit TLV. 16 Q. Do you understand what TLV is, Mr. 17 Martino? 18 A. Yes, I do. 19 Q. What is your understanding? 20 A. It's the maximum number of fibers 21 that are permissible in an area, the best 22 information as to whether a nonhazardous 23 condition exists. 24 Q. How long have TLVs been in 25 existence? 65 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 A. That I don't know. 2 Q. No idea? 3 A. I saw the term mentioned in the 4 '60s, but I don't know when it started. 5 Q. Do you know whether or not they had 6 TLVs in the 1940s? 7 A. I never worked with hazardous 8 materials that required such a measurement in 9 that period of time, so I did not encounter it 10 then. That didn't mean that it didn't exist. 11 Q. Do you know whether or not they had 12 TLVs in the '50s? 13 A. No, I did not encounter it in the 14 '50s either. I was not working in hazardous 15 chemical areas at that time, nor did I think I 16 was in the '60s as well. 17 Q. That was going to be my next 18 question. Do you know whether or not they had 19 TLVs in the '60s? 20 A. In the '60s, yes. 21 Q. When do you think in the '60s that 22 you first became familiar with TLVs? 23 A. When the asbestos problem arose at 24 Johns-Manville. 25 Q. That would have been about 1968, I 66 67 68 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 InF, 1 believe you said? 2 A. That's correct, because then we had 3 reason to look into it. 4 Q. Had you ever -- not had you ever. 5 Let me ask you this. Are you familiar with the 6 National Safety Council? 7 A. Yes. I don't know in detail what it 8 does. 9 Q. When did you first become familiar 10 with an organization called the National Safety 11 Council? 12 A. I don't remember. I've seen that in 13 -- on letterheads, but I don't remember when 14 is the first time I saw it. 15 Q. Ever heard of the IHF, Industrial 16 Hygiene Foundation? 17 A. No. 18 Q. I think we both understand what 19 TLVs are, but I'm asking my question based on 20 the definition you just gave regarding TLVs. 21 Again, I want to exclude your 22 department. We've already discussed the air 23 testing that you had done in your department. I 24 want to talk about the entire time period that 25 you were employed with Union Carbide at the 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 InFrye 1 Bound Brook plant, and I want to ask you if you 2 know for a fact as to whether or not the air 3 was ever tested to determine whether or not it 4 met the threshold limit values anyplace else in 5 the plant besides your department. 6 A. Maybe I'm misinterpreting the terms 7 you are using for a fact. I relied on the 8 safety department doing the testing that was 9 required to maintaining a safe environment. I 10 didn't call them up every month to find out 11 what testing they did and what the results 12 were. I had faith in them, and I had no reason 13 to go any further than that. And that applied 14 to any hazardous chemical. 15 Now -- and I don't think you are 16 going to find any other employee that went 17 beyond that in any other organization. I think 18 that is a ridiculous question, if you don't 19 mind my saying. 20 Q. I promise I don't mind you saying 21 so. You assume they did, but you don't know for 22 a fact whether they did or didn't, do you? 23 A. I assumed that they did, and I 24 can't tell you any more than that. 25 Q. Okay. That's fair. I accept that 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 InFrye 1 answer. To your knowledge, was there ever any 2 type of warning at all put on the Bakelite 3 compounds that were shipped to customers, ever? 4 A. The products did have a warning 5 label with regard to dust. 6 Q. When was that warning label 7 regarding dust first put on it? 8 A. It was always there when I was 9 involved with the material. 10 Q. You're talking about what date? 11 A. '60s. 12 Q. Okay. And what did this warning 13 say? 14 A. I can't remember the exact wording 15 of it, just that under -- that a dust could be 16 produced going through -- I don't remember 17 exact wording. 18 Q. What about your recollection that 19 makes you think it was a warning of some type? 20 A. Would you repeat that, please. 21 Q. What about your recollection makes 22 you believe, then, that it was a warning, if 23 you don't remember what it said? 24 A. It was a piece of information that 25 went along with the product. It was on the bag, 69 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 so I would describe that as information that 2 the customer should have. You couldcall it 3 warning. 4 Q. You don't recall what it warned 5 about? 6 A. Not in detail, no. 7 Q. Did it warn that there was a 8 problem with dust; it may contaminate the 9 product when you are mixing it; they don't want 10 people breathing the dust? Do you have any idea 11 at all what it said? 12 A. I don't remember the exact wording. 13 In the '60s I probably could, but I don't now. 14 Q. You don't remember the exact 15 warning. Any idea of what the substance of the 16 warning was? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Were there any other facilities 19 besides the Bound Brook facility that developed 20 or manufactured Bakelite compounds? 21 A. In the US? 22 Q. The US or anywhere else, actually. 23 A. Well, in the USthe Bound Brook 24 location was the only one that made phenolic 25 compounds for us. I assume you're not talking 70 71 72 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 about competitors? 2 Q. Not competitors. So, Bound Brook is 3 the one who actually made the compounds. Were 4 there any other facilities that made components 5 that you used to make the compounds? 6 A. Would you repeat that again, 7 please. 8 Q. As I understood your distinction, 9 Bound Brook was the only plant in the US that 10 actually made the compound and it was shipped 11 out to customers. 12 A. That is correct. 13 Q. Were there other facilities 14 anywhere that made any of the component parts 15 that Bound Brook used to make the compounds it 16 shipped to the customers? 17 A. No. The resin came from the resin 18 department at Bound Brook. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. The fillers were purchased from 21 various suppliers, and the lubricants and the 22 colorants. 23 Q. I guess the only other component 24 actually would be the resins, and they are all 25 made there at Bound Brook too? 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Fr 1 MR. GLASSER: Objection. Misstates 2 testimony. 3 Q. You can answer the question. 4 A. I am sorry? 5 Q. You can answer. 6 A. What was the question? 7 Q. Were all the resins made at Bound 8 Brook? 9 A. The resins used in molding material 10 were made at Bound Brook, as well as for sale 11 to customers. There was another plant location 12 in California that made resins for use in the 13 wood industry. 14 Q. So, that didn't have anything to do 15 with you? Am I correct that didn't have 16 anything to do with you guys and what you all 17 were doing? 18 A. Again, that didn't come through too 19 clearly. 20 Q. The other facility that you were 21 just describing didn't have anything to do with 22 what was going on at Bound Brook? 23 A. No, it didn't have anything to do 24 with the molding material department at Bound 25 Brook, but it did make some of the same resins 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 that were made at Bound Brook. 2 Q. Now, I'm going to sort of back 3 track a little bit here. I am looking at my 4 notes. I kind of got off track before. I'm 5 going back to questions that were talking about 6 the air testingthat was done. 7 Describe for me, if you would, what 8 was done andwhat you had done to determine 9 whether or not the molding process in your 10 department met the threshold limit values. 11 A. I had the lab assistant take bags 12 of product that contained five percent 13 asbestos, pour the powder into the hopper of a 14 preformer, form the preform and then take it 15 and put it into a high frequency oven, which is 16 similar to our present day microwave, heat it 17 up to temperature and then put it in a press 18 and mold an ashtray about, oh, five, six inches 19 in diameter. 20 That was repeated over a period of 21 three hours. Air samples weretaken by a safety 22 engineer at various locations around the press. 23 Those air samples were later analyzed by that 24 engineer to determine whether they met OSHA 25 standards. 73 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 Q. How many air samples were taken? 2 A. Well, it would be every twenty 3 minutes over a period of about three hours. So, 4 about three an hour. Probably nine or ten. Nine 5 and ten at each location, so as I recall there 6 were probably two or three locations. Overall, 7 probably about thirty samples. 8 Q. And how many bags of material were 9 used during this three-hour time period? 10 A. How many what? 11 Q. How many bags of material were used 12 during this three-hour time period? 13 A. Probably a half a dozen. 14 Q. What prompted you to do the 15 testing? 16 A. I wanted to -- we didn't think that 17 asbestos that was compounded and completely 18 encapsulated would be a problem. I wanted to 19 satisfy myself that it wasn't. 20 Q. Why were you doing the testing, 21 rather than relying on the safety guys? 22 A. I wasn't doing the testing. I was 23 there observing. 24 Q. Who suggested doing the actual 25 testing, then? 74 75 76 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 A. Who suggested it? 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. Me. 4 Q. Had the safety guys you were 5 talking about earlier ever suggested that you 6 do that? 7 A. No. When we wanted a test run, we 8 had to request it, in our area of 9 responsibility. Now, the safety department can 10 make that decision if they expect there is 11 going to be a problem. 12 Q. I understand, but the safety guy 13 you were talking about, you were relying on him 14 to say if you needed to do any sort of air 15 safety testing? 16 A. Not in this particular instance, 17 no. 18 Q. Had air testing ever been routine 19 in your department? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Was that the first time you'd ever 22 done one? 23 A. That's right. Let me just comment. 24 If there was a strong odor of some chemical or 25 unfamiliar material, the safety department 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 would be immediately called in to determine the 2 cause, and they would run whatever tests would 3 be required to determine whether it was a 4 problem and what the source was. 5 Q. That was probably a poorly phrased 6 question on my part. The question I probably 7 should have asked you is is that the only time 8 that you are aware of that you or anyone else 9 in your department had ever done air testing 10 for asbestos TLVs? 11 A. Yes, that's right. 12 Q. Can you describe -- it's probably 13 hard to do because it's by phone. But can you 14 sort of describe to me this hopper or this 15 process where he was pouring. 16 A. A preformer is like a punch press, 17 a large punch press. The preform would be 18 about two inches, three inches diameter and 19 maybe an inch thick. You also had the option of 20 using more than one preform for the part. 21 There's a hopper where you pour the 22 material in, and that feeds the amount of 23 material to fill the cavity that forms the 24 pill. There is no -- other than the hoods that 25 we had in the area, and we did have hoods where 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 any powdered materials would be used to draw 2 the air into the system, rather than out into 3 the area -- there was a hood over the hopper. 4 The pill, then, would be taken out 5 of the press, and by hand -- the operator wore 6 leather gloves -- and placed in the oven. 7 After it was heated, just like you would heat 8 some food in the microwave, it was taken out by 9 hand and placed in the press. Then the press 10 was closed and the part molded. 11 That was repeated over and over 12 again. Then as the hopper went empty, another 13 bag would be poured into the hopper. The hopper 14 held about a half a bag. 15 Q. Okay. Now if I understand you 16 correctly, this facility where you were doing 17 this air testing was actually a system that had 18 its own ventilation control system for it for 19 dust, for using the dusty products? 20 A. Yes. It was common to what was used 21 throughout the industry. Dust -- the dust is 22 also a housekeeping problem. 23 Q. This ventilation system, I assume, 24 was functioning and operating properly at the 25 time? 77 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Did you ever have any other type of 3 analytical type testing done to the 4 asbestos-containing compoundswhere you were 5 trying to find out anything regarding the 6 release of asbestos fibers from the product 7 during its use? 8 MR. GLASSER: Objection. Vague as to 9 the term product. Are you referring to the end 10 product, the product sold to the molding 11 companies? 12 MR. BOITER: I would be glad to 13 rephrase it. 14 Q. In terms of any other testing that 15 you had done to the asbestos-containing 16 Bakelite compounds, in their final form as you 17 would ship them to a customer, was there any 18 testing ever done to determine-19 A. On the molded piece? Are you saying 20 the molded piece? 21 Q. I'm talking about the actual 22 compound that you would ship out to customers. 23 Was there any testing ever done of those 24 products to determine whether or nottheir use 25 or handling released asbestos fibersinto the 78 79 80 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 air or any other type of testing, analytical in 2 nature, looking to see if there -- under a 3 microscope to see if fibers were sticking out? 4 Any other actual use testing, other than the 5 one test that you did that you just described 6 to me where you did your own air sample? 7 A. In the laboratory when the product 8 is manufactured, there are tests run to 9 determine whether the solid fillers are fully 10 disbursed. They are primarily appearance tests 11 and molding tests. 12 (Whereupon, there was a brief 13 recess.) 14 Q. You had just talked about some 15 laboratory testing that was done. One of the 16 things you mentioned was sight testing or 17 something along those lines. Can you explain to 18 me what that involves. 19 A. Would you repeat what kind of 20 testing. 21 Q. I thought you said sight testing. 22 That's what I wrote down on my piece of paper. 23 A. Could you spell that word. 24 Q. I assume S-I-G-H-T. 25 A. Oh, you mean visual tests? Well, 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 the tests in the quality control department are 2 to determine whether the fillers have been 3 thoroughly coated by the phenolic resin and 4 we've gotten a good dispersion. 5 One is to mold a plaque and 6 determine whether there are any of those 7 particles visible. 8 There are also physical properties 9 run to determine whether you've gotten the 10 optimum -- met the specification on strength. 11 If you do not get good dispersion and coating 12 of the fillers, you will not get the best 13 properties. 14 There are also longer term tests, 15 like moisture resistance, that are run. If you 16 do not thoroughly disburse and coat the 17 fillers, your moisture resistance will be too 18 high, especially with wood flour filler 19 materials. 20 Q. When you did this visual test, was 21 this with the naked eye or were you somehow 22 aided? 23 A. It was done with the naked eye. 24 Also tests where a specimen was broken, like an 25 impact test. The break was examined by the 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 naked eye. 2 Q. At any time from 1949 to 1974 do 3 you know if it was ever inspected by use of a 4 microscope or some other type of device to 5 magnify what you were looking at? 6 A. The microscopes would be used only 7 if we saw somethingthat needed further 8 follow-up. For example, a contaminant. Let's 9 say a gasket broke off in this process and got 10 into the material. That might be visible and 11 then became a problem of trying to determine 12 what it was. Might have been a piece of rubber. 13 Anything that was -- if you saw a nonuniform or 14 a speck in the material, then other tests were 15 run. Probably a microscope would be the next 16 step. 17 Q. From '49 to '74 did you ever look 18 at the completed product using a microscope? 19 MR. BERGIN: Excuse me. I'm going 20 to object to the form because you used the term 21 "completed product"and I'm not sure what 22 you're referring to. 23 Q. At any time from 1949 to 1974 did 24 you ever look at anything in any way associated 25 with a Bakelite compound or product that you 81 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 looked at under a microscope? 2 A. Yes. If a part was sent back from 3 the customer that required magnification. For 4 example, if there werecracks arounda metal 5 insert that was molded into thepart, we would 6 probably use a microscope to take a closer look 7 to see what the fracture looked like and 8 whether it was due to a sharp corner or 9 contaminant. Part of the detective work we 10 would have to do. It was like a tool. Just like 11 any tool, gardening tool. You use it when you 12 need it. 13 Q. Did you use the microscope for 14 anything other than that purpose? 15 A. Other than for contaminants, to see 16 if we had good dispersion, no. If we needed any 17 more definitive analysis, we would use other 18 tests. 19 You know, the phenolic compound has 20 black in it and a lot of fillers. You can't see 21 too much below the surface. All you have is a 22 very rich surface layer. The only thing that 23 flows when you mold a piece is the resin and 24 the colorant in it. So, you get a piece with a 25 --a surface that's resin-rich and glossy, and 82 83 84 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 then you have all these different fillers 2 underneath it. So, the microscope can't see 3 very far into the part. You can just look at 4 surface. 5 Q. Well, from the period of time from 6 1949 to 1974 did you ever use a microscope to 7 determine whether or not the asbestos fibers in 8 the Bakelite compound that contained asbestos 9 were fully encapsulated or not? 10 A. Only by the tests that I previously 11 described. The asbestos, as delivered to us, 12 was not a fine powder or fine fibers that 13 floated through the air. It was clumpy. It was 14 -- if it was not uniformly dispersed, you 15 would get white specks from the product. 16 Picture taking your insulation from 17 the attic, trying to disburse it into a 18 product. If it didn't break up and get 19 thoroughly and uniformly mixed in, you would 20 not get the impact strength that you required. 21 So, it was only by way of indirect 22 measurements and visual appearance. 23 Q. Well, that's what I'm asking you. 24 Maybe you and I just aren't understanding each 25 other. 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 Do you know of specific instances 2 between 1949 and 1974 where the Bakelite 3 compounds containing asbestos were looked at 4 under a microscope to determine whether or not 5 the asbestos contained in the compound was 6 fully encapsulated? 7 A. It was done to determine -- it was 8 used only if the visual tests indicated that it 9 was not and we wanted to further magnify the 10 defect. As I mentioned before, if it is well 11 disbursed, the microscope doesn't help you very 12 much. You only see the very top surface layer. 13 Q. What were the results -- let me go 14 back. How many times do you recall between 1949 15 and 1974 the testing department doing 16 microscopic examinations to determine whether 17 or not the asbestos in the asbestos-containing 18 Bakelite products were fully encapsulated? 19 A. I don't know. That was not a 20 standard QC test. It was a backup test. 21 Q. How many times do you recall that 22 you saw results indicating by microscopic 23 examination whether or not the 24 asbestos-containing Bakelite -- the asbestos in 25 the asbestos-containing Bakelite products were 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 fully encapsulated? 2 A. By microscopic examination? 3 Q. Yes, sir. 4 A. Maybe I didn't make it clear 5 before. We did not think that the microscopic 6 examination of a product with five percent 7 asbestos in it wasmeaningful. You don't see 8 below the very top layer of the material 9 because you have so much other filler in there. 10 To distinguish between wood fiber 11 and asbestos fiber when you've completely 12 covered it with black resin, the test is not 13 useful, so why run it. 14 Q. That may be my fault. I thought you 15 had told me you had done that type of test. 16 What are telling me is that you didn't -- is 17 that correct -- because you didn't think it 18 would give you useful information? 19 A. I did it in the instances, or 20 people did it in the instances I mentioned. But 21 you are implying that we should have run some 22 test to determine if a material was fully 23 encapsulated, and I'm telling you the test 24 wasn't any good and it wasn't run for that 25 reason. 85 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 Q. I'm on the right track. I'm asking 2 you what specifically did the reports indicate 3 about the encapsulation of the asbestos on 4 those times you are saying that was done? What 5 did it indicate? 6 A. You mean with the microscope? 7 Q. Yes, sir. 8 A. When the microscope was used the 9 material was not encapsulated to determine the 10 source, whether it was wood fiber or whether it 11 was asbestos that wasn't being disbursed. 12 It was not used when there was no 13 evidence to indicate that the material had not 14 been disbursed. I don't think I can make it any 15 clearer than that. 16 Q. Can you -- I presume, then, that 17 you were privy to whatever test results -- you 18 were privy to the results of any microscopic 19 test results by the testing department? 20 A. No.I could have obtained them if I 21 wanted them. I had no reason to obtain them. 22 Q. So, you don't have any idea what 23 results they obtained when they looked at fiber 24 encapsulation? 25 A. Let's go over this one more time. 86 87 88 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 Q. Okay. 2 A. We did not think that a microscopic 3 examination of a phenolic compound that 4 contained five percent asbestos, carbon black 5 or nigrosine and a variety of other fillers, 6 was any good. 7 And therefore, we did not run it 8 for that purpose. So, therefore, there is no 9 reason for me to want to see any results 10 because they wouldn't have been run unless 11 there was a problem. 12 Q. Can you give me an estimate of what 13 period of time would it have been that Union 14 Carbide was producing their highest percentage 15 of asbestos-containing Bakelite products? 16 A. Percentage in terms of the total 17 volume? 18 Q. Yes, sir. 19 A. Probably 1972or '73 we may have 20 reached our peak, because we were eliminating a 21 lot of products, and the ratio of the materials 22 containing five percent asbestos to those that 23 didn't contain any was increasing. We were down 24 -- we ended up down to 14 products. 25 Q. Out of the initial 200 or so? 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 A. That's right. 2 Q. Was 200 sort of the highest number 3 of different compounds you would have had? 4 A. I don't -- I don't remember more 5 than that, because that included colored 6 molding materials as well. And we did make 7 those for a short period of time. 8 Q. Some of the product number 9 designations actually had four letters instead 10 of the three letters that you were referring 11 to, like the BMG or I guess BMR. What was the 12 specific purpose of that fourth letter? 13 A. Originally it was supposed to 14 indicate that it was a modification of the 15 original product. 16 For example, if we wanted to put in 17 a double roll of product to make it more 18 water-resistant or if we wanted to increase the 19 amount of colorant, minor variations, it would 20 be given a fourth letter. 21 The intent was to drop that fourth 22 letter when that product replaced the original. 23 In actual practice that didn't always occur 24 because there was always somebody who wanted 25 the old product and wouldn't go to the new one. 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 So, you will find in some cases 2 there is an BMGA and a BMGB, and that's the 3 reason for it. But it's basically the same 4 product, same ingredients. 5 Q. Was there ever a series of Bakelite 6 products that had like a BMM letter 7 designation? 8 A. Yes. Again, I'm going by memory 9 here. The M stands for a change in the 10 granulation, and I think M meant that there 11 were fewer fines in the material, but I'm not 12 certain of that. 13 Q. Fewer what? 14 A. Fines, fine particles. There was a 15 specification on the granulation, how much you 16 could have. Screen tests were always run on the 17 granulation. There was a percent on each 18 screen. Specifications were set up on what was 19 permitted on each screen as a percentage of the 20 total. Some formulations had less fines than 21 others. 22 Q. Do you know how manydifferent 23 designations there were -- we talked about a G; 24 we talked about an R; we talked about an M. 25 Were there any others? 89 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 MR. BERGIN: Excuse me. For 2 clarification, are you talking about a specific 3 digit location or numeric location? He went 4 earlier on in his deposition through a fairly 5 elaborate description of what they were and 6 what the letters meant and in how many places 7 and why. I think we are retreading. 8 MR. BOITER: I don't think we are 9 retreading because he told me about a G and an 10 R in the third digit place. Now he told me 11 about an M. 12 MR. BERGIN: If you're talking about 13 the third digit place, let's at least be clear 14 about that. 15 MR. BOITER: Okay. I don't have any 16 problem with that. 17 Q. Let's start at the beginning. In 18 the first digit place, was there always a B if 19 it was a Bakelite product? 20 A. Yes. Let me take that back. If you 21 are talking about Bakelite phenolic compound or 22 Bakelite phenol -- I mean phenolic resin, that 23 was a B. We also made epoxy resins that we 24 called Bakelite resins, so that Bakelite didn't 25 necessarily have to apply just to the phenolic 90 91 92 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 compounds. 2 Q. If it was an epoxy resin, what 3 would that first letter be? 4 A. It would be an E, and it was sold 5 as resin only. 6 Q. It would have just been a resin. 7 A. At one period of time in the '60s, 8 the thermoplastics were also called Bakelite 9 brand polyethylene, Bakelite brand 10 polystyrene. It was a marketing decision that 11 tried to capitalize on the popularity of the 12 Bakelite name. So that Bakelite over the years 13 has come to mean a lot more than just the 14 Baekeland original resin. 15 Q. Assuming it was a Bakelite phenolic 16 resin, it always had a B? 17 A. That's correct. The Bakelite 18 phenolic compounds, yeah. 19 Q. The second letter space, as I 20 understand your prior testimony, you could have 21 an M or an R; is that correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Were there any other letter 24 designations it could have besides an M or an 25 R? 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 A. I don't remember any others for the 2 Bakelite products. 3 Q. You can assume I'm talking about 4 the Bakelite products right now. In the third 5 letter designation area we talked about a G. 6 We talked about an R. Just a few minutes ago we 7 talked about an M. Were there any other letter 8 designations in that third position? 9 A. Well, the Z that we talked about 10 earlier. 11 Q. The Z. I'm sorry. You are right. 12 A. I don't remember any others. 13 Q. Is that the -- speaking 14 specifically about those first three letter 15 designations, had that type of coding system 16 been in place since 1949, to your knowledge? 17 A. I think it was put in place in the 18 '50s. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. Because I've seen some -- I 21 remember seeing data sheets with the old number 22 and a new one in the '50s. 23 Q. Okay. Was there -- as I understood 24 earlier, that fourth letter designation 25 represented some change in the product. Was 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 there any specific pattern or sequence of how 2 they did that? Would they start at A and go to 3 Z or was it random? 4 A. No, you were supposed to start with 5 A and then go to B and then go to C. And the 6 system was that -- if you used the A version, 7 you didn't use it again, so that if anybody 8 went back to the records, they would know - 9 they could trace what the changes were. If 10 there were two A's, it could be very confusing. 11 So, it was done in sequence. Every minor 12 variation had the next letter. 13 Q. In -- let me just check real quick. 14 I think it was in Request for Admissions. I 15 want to make sure I'm correct. It might have 16 been Interrogatory Answers. I'm not sure. 17 But at any rate, there was some 18 reference in the materials that we received 19 from your attorneys that talked about, for lack 20 of a better way to put it, what I would call 21 different categories -- maybe that's a bad term 22 -- for Bakelite products. They told us about 23 general purpose Bakelite, high heat resistant 24 Bakelite and sort of a high impact heat 25 resistant Bakelite. 93 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 Can you explain to me what the 2 difference -- if these are correct, what the 3 differences in those are? 4 A. General purpose was the wood flour 5 filled material with no other reinforcement. If 6 you wanted high impact material, you would add 7 a reinforcement like cotton flock. The highest 8 I remember we used was up to 15 percent. That 9 was used in the washing machineagitators. 10 If you wanted high impact heat 11 resistance, you would replace some of the wood 12 flour, or say plastic filler, with a mineral 13 filler. It did not have to be asbestos. 14 MR. GLASSER: Can I interrupt. I'm 15 not sure he understands the question 16 completely. 17 MR. BOITER: Actually, I think he's 18 answering it beautifully. Iunderstand what 19 he's talking about. 20 MR. GLASSER: But I do believe that 21 those categories were the three categories of 22 asbestos-containing products. 23 Q. I will ask you what do you think, 24 Dr. Martino. Did general purpose Bakelite have 25 asbestos in it or did it not? 94 95 96 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 A. It did not. Let me clarify that. 2 Until we developed the BMM 5020 where we put 3 five percent in. And that was intended to be 4 general purpose. By general purpose, it's 5 multiuse. Up to that point it was all wood 6 flour filled. 7 Q. To your knowledge, when did -- when 8 did -- when were the terminologies like general 9 purpose, heat resistant and high impact heat 10 resistant first used in regard to Bakelite 11 products? 12 A. They were -- they are in the '50s. 13 Even though I wasn't in that area I heard the 14 terms used. There were also ASTM 15 classifications that read like -- that had 16 those descriptions in them. 17 Q. Did you say ASTM? 18 A. Yes, ASTM. 19 Q. What does that stand for? 20 A. It's an organization that maintains 21 standards for various plastic materials. I 22 don't recall what ASTM stands for. I think it's 23 the American Standard Test Methods. I'm not 24 certain. But I think it's still around, so you 25 probably could get that information easily on 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 the internet. 2 But it classified not only the 3 Bakelite products, but even the thermoplastic 4 materials, into various categories. For 5 Bakelite products they had the general purpose, 6 the heat resistant, the impact resistant, and 7 not by content, but by performance. By 8 performance, I mean physical properties and 9 other physical measurements. 10 Q. Was there a period of time when - 11 strike that question. Was there a period of 12 time when the general purpose Bakelite 13 contained asbestos? 14 MR. BERGIN: Excuse me. I'm going to 15 object to the form of the question because it 16 suggests that there was only one general 17 purpose Bakelite at the given time. 18 Q. Was there a point in time when 19 there was a general purpose Bakelite -- strike 20 that question. Understanding you had a number 21 of different types of Bakelite compounds, was 22 there a period of time when any of the 23 compounds that you would describe as general 24 purpose Bakelite were asbestos-containing? 25 A. Well, in the late '60s, as I 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 mentioned before, the 5020 contained five 2 percent asbestos. That was a new development. 3 And it was intended for the same applications 4 as had been previously using the all wood flour 5 filled products. 6 Q. Was there -- understanding there 7 were a number of different Bakelite compounds, 8 was there ever a period of timewhen any of the 9 heat resistant Bakelite compounds were 10 asbestos-containing? 11 A. There probably was one, but I don't 12 remember the number. 13 Q. If you know, based on what you can 14 recall, what was the asbestos content by volume 15 of that product? Do you recall? 16 A. Well, when we say heat resistant, 17 that means mineral filled, and it doesn't all 18 have to be asbestos. So, the one that I am 19 trying to remember was a mixture of minerals 20 and probably five to eight percent asbestos. I 21 don't remember the exact amount. Five was the 22 usual concentration. Rarely did we go over 23 that. 24 Q. Do you recall -- from '60 to '74, 25 do you recall how many different types of heat 97 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 resistant Bakelite compound there were? 2 A. Heat resistant would -- those would 3 be high specific gravity products. I would say 4 two or three at most is all I can recall. They 5 were more specialty products, and we did not 6 sell them in high volume. Our customer would 7 use it only if they had to have that high heat 8 resistance because there were disadvantages to 9 them. 10 Q. I want to ask you that general 11 question about the high impact heat resistant 12 products. From '60 to '74 do you remember how 13 many different high impact heat resistant 14 Bakelite compounds you had? 15 A. Probably one, and that probably 16 contained cotton flock and minerals. 17 Q. In the terminology that you used in 18 the industry, taking in the whole world of the 19 200 or so Bakelite compounds, would those three 20 classifications have included all the 21 compounds? In other words, all 200 are either 22 general purpose Bakelite, heat resistant 23 Bakelite or high impact heat resistant 24 Bakelite? 25 MR. BERGIN: I'm going to object to 98 99 100 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 the form of the question, partly because it's 2 compound and partly because it refers to the 3 200 Union Carbide products as the whole 4 universe of the industry, which I don't think 5 is a fair characterization. 6 MR. BOITER: I don't think I said 7 that, but I would be happy to withdraw the 8 question or repeat it. 9 Q. You indicated in your testimony 10 earlier that there were some 200, give or take, 11 Bakelite compounds that you believe Union 12 Carbide was producing. My question to you was 13 would all 200 of those compounds have fit into 14 the categories of either general purpose, heat 15 resistant or high impact heat resistant. 16 A. There were a couple specialties, 17 like a mica filled, that didn't fit that 18 category. And there was a graphite material 19 which didn't fit. 20 Everything else -- then there was 21 color molding materials, which for practical 22 purposes were similar to the general purpose 23 compounds. They are wood flour filled. The only 24 difference was the colorant. 25 Q. During the period from 1960 to 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 1974, did asbestos-containing Bakelite ever 2 reach 40 percent of the total Bakelite produced 3 by Union Carbide? 4 A. Probably in 1972, I believe it was, 5 when we were trying to improve the 6 profitability of the business. We had cut back 7 to 14 formulations. It is possible at that time 8 we had reached that point because naturally as 9 you cut back -- the majority when I started 10 were all wood flour filled. Only five to ten 11 percent had the asbestos in them. 12 In cutting, we were cutting the 13 others, the specialties that generally did not 14 contain asbestos, but were very small volume 15 products. 16 Q. So, by percent of sales or percent 17 of production of Bakelite by Union Carbide, it 18 actually went up after the 1968 time period you 19 were talking about? 20 A. The percentage of sales went up. 21 Our total -- one point to remember, our total 22 sales of phenolic compounds was going down 23 because a lot of the Bakelite applications were 24 being replaced by thermoplastics. 25 So, I don't have the volume 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 figures, but in percentage terms that probably 2 is -- although I can't confirm that actual 3 figure, it isn't way out. It's possible. 4 Q. But generally speaking, and I don't 5 want to tie you to any specific figure. But 6 generally speaking, in terms of the percentage 7 produced, it was going up rather than going 8 down? 9 A. Could you repeat that again, 10 please. I didn't hear it. 11 Q. You mentioned that you didn't want 12 to be held to a specific figure, and I'm not 13 trying to. Generally speaking, it sounds like 14 what you are saying is that towards the end 15 before Bakelite found out about the dangers of 16 asbestos -- not talking volume of sales, but at 17 least percentage of sales -- the 18 asbestos-containing Bakelite sales were 19 bordering a higher percentage than they had in 20 the past? 21 MR. GLASSER: Objection as to form. 22 You can answer. 23 A. As I say, the percentage -- the 24 ratio of the material containing five percent 25 asbestos, the ratio of the number of products 101 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 that contain five percent asbestos to the total 2 went up. The actual number, you take 40 percent 3 of 14, you still end up with not too many 4 products. 5 Q. Was there ever -- I apologize for 6 this question. I picked it up reading a 7 deposition of somebody somewhere, something 8 about 50-gallon drums. Are those the drums we 9 talked about earlier when we weretalking about 10 the product being shipped in drums? Would they 11 sort have been similar to a 50-gallon drum? Do 12 you know what I'm talking about? 13 A. About the same size, yes. 14 Q. I think I'm about to wrap it up 15 here. I know that will make you happy. I do 16 have a couple more. 17 There were some sales -- I guess 18 sales records or sales chart that we've been 19 furnished by Mr.Bergin. In it it had some 20 product codes, like ZZLA. Any idea what that 21 would stand for? 22 A. No. I don't remember what the Z's 23 were. 24 MR. BERGIN: For clarification, I 25 take it you are now referring to sale to 102 103 104 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 somebody other than Delco, which would have 2 covered a whole broad range of kinds of 3 chemicals that may have been sold by Union 4 Carbide that would have been on year-end sales 5 reports, which I think is what you are 6 referring to. Can you give us some specifics so 7 we have a record as to what you are referring 8 to. 9 MR. BOITER: I will try to find one. 10 MR. BERGIN: You can tell us by the 11 years in the upper right-hand corner. 12 MR. BOITER: I'm looking at December 13 31, 1967. Will that tell you? 14 MR. BERGIN: Which page now? 15 MR. BOITER: I don't know. Where is 16 the page number? 17 MR. BERGIN: We sent them over 18 clipped together with years. 19 MR. BOITER: I would guess December 20 31, 1967, is one of the last pages. 21 MR. BERGIN: Could you tell us what 22 the customer was? 23 MR. BOITER: Sure, Delco Remy. I 24 don't think there is one that says December 31 25 of 1967. I may be wrong, though. I see three 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 pages of December 31, 1967. 2 MR. BERGIN: You are looking at 3 where that says ZZLA 0334? 4 MR. BOITER: Down at the bottom. 5 ZZLA, yes. It looks like Delco Remy to me. 6 MR. BERGIN: Yes. 7 Q. Getting back to you, Mr. Martino, 8 we apologize for our little side bar. ZZLA, 9 does than mean anything to you that you can 10 recall? 11 A. Would you repeat that. 12 Q. ZZLA, you don't recallwhat it 13 stands for? 14 A. No. The L in the third letter 15 implies liquid. But I don't know what category 16 material Z was used for. 17 Q. Would a ZZP mean anything to you? 18 A. P implies powdered. 19 Q. Backing up to talk about -- not 20 really backing up. Talking about the compounds 21 that were being shipped to customers, the 22 compounds that contained the African blue 23 fibers, would that have actually -- that 24 product as it was shipped to a customer have 25 had a bluish look to it? 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 A. I don't recall what it looked like. 2 I would guess more of a brownish look than 3 bluish because that's the color of the resin. 4 If it was fully coated with resin, it would 5 have that resin, yellowish, brownish cast. 6 Q. Maybe I misunderstood. Maybe I need 7 to back up again. I thought I understood that 8 the African blue was adry mix. 9 A. It was, but it was ball milled, so 10 that you got the resin on the surface of all 11 the fibers, so that you had a coating of 12 powdered resin, if you did it right, over the 13 asbestos. 14 I never remember looking at it that 15 closely. It was a very low volume product and 16 not made in the departments that we normally 17 did our work. So, I think it would be more of a 18 yellowish brown color, but that was a long time 19 ago. 20 Q. Do you recall ever actually seeing 21 the product in itsfinal form before it was 22 shipped? 23 A. Pardon? 24 Q. Do you have any recollection of 25 actually yourself personally having seen the 105 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 product in its final form before it was 2 shipped, the African blue? 3 A. I happened to see them putting it 4 in a drum when I walked down the aisle where it 5 was being made, which wasn't very frequently, 6 but I never went over there and took a look at 7 it to examine it closely. 8 I don't think any of our molding 9 customers were using it once the Fiberite glass 10 filled products became available. It was really 11 difficult to make, high in cost and very 12 difficult to mold. 13 MR. BOITER: If you will give me 14 about two minutes, through the magic of the 15 telephone I am going to walk outside to ask my 16 counsel if there are any other questions he 17 wants to ask. 18 MR. BERGIN: Do we have anybody else 19 on this? 20 MR. BOITER: Mike Schultz. 21 (Whereupon, there was a brief 22 recess.) 23 Q. A couple more quick ones, Mr. 24 Martino, and I will be done. We have some sales 25 records from '66 forward. Do you know -- do you 106 107 108 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 have any information, direct information, about 2 sales to Delco Remy in the '40s? 3 A. No, I don't. 4 Q. Do you know who, if anyone, at 5 least who is still alive, in connection with 6 Union Carbide would have that information? 7 A. I don't know if these people are 8 alive. Dick Bruce was a sales manager for the 9 area that could have gone back that far. I 10 don't think he's alive. Another person was Eddy 11 Vale. And I don't think he's around any more. 12 I can't think of anybody in that time period 13 that was in sales that would have been familiar 14 with Delco Remy purchases. 15 Q. Do you have any direct information 16 about Delco Remy purchases in the '50s? 17 MR. GLASSER: Objection as to form. 18 You can answer it, if you understand it. 19 A. No, I didn't see anything on their 20 sales in the '60s -- in the '50s. 21 Q. Would Mr. Bruce and Mr. Vale be two 22 people who might, if they are still around? 23 A. Well, I don't think they are. I 24 think they both died. 25 Q. I guess what I'm trying to do is 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 find out if there is anybody else you can think 2 of who might have that information that would 3 be alive. 4 A. If a name comes to me, I will break 5 in and give it to you. Another is Fred Ducca, 6 D-U-C-C-A, used to work for me and was an 7 old-timer in the phenolic molding material 8 area. He would go back that far. I don't know 9 whether he's alive or not and I don't know 10 where he is living. 11 Q. I'm going to ask you a question. 12 You may pause a second and give your counsel a 13 chance to interject. He may say you don't know 14 anything about it and then you won't have to 15 answer the question. 16 Do you know anything at all -- let 17 me scratch that. Are you familiar from a 18 technical standpoint of a product sold by Union 19 Carbide called Calidria? 20 A. Calidria asbestos? 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. I guess that means I should ask 24 some questions. Was Calidria the type of 25 asbestos that was used in Bakelite products? 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 A. No, it wasn't. We were using Carey 2 Mines asbestos. We were approached by them to 3 use their product and we did run some tests on 4 it, but never used it. 5 MR. BERGIN: Is that just as good as 6 saying he doesn't know anything about it, as 7 saying it wasn't used in Bakelite? 8 MR. BOITER: It's close, but I do 9 have some questions about it based on the fact 10 that he does have some knowledge about it. 11 Q. What connection, if any, did you 12 have with the Calidria operation at Union 13 Carbide? 14 A. I never saw their operation. I only 15 talked to their sales manager. 16 Q. Did you ever get any information 17 from their sales manager about any types of 18 warnings they might have put on a Calidria 19 product? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Did anyone involved in the Calidria 22 operation ever prior to -- well, at least prior 23 to 1974, did anyone from the Calidria operation 24 ever provide you with any information regarding 25 the hazards of asbestos? 109 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 MR. BERGIN: I'm going to object on 2 the grounds that there has been absolutely no 3 identification by anyone of the use of 4 Calidria. The only Union Carbide products that 5 have been identified are not Calidria products. 6 This is way beyond anything this witness is 7 being offered for. 8 Q. You can answer the question. Do you 9 remember the question, Mr. Martino? 10 A. What was the question again? 11 MR. BERGIN: Have the court reporter 12 read it back, please. 13 MR. BOITER: I would be glad to ask 14 again. He can object again. 15 Q. Did anyone from the Calidria 16 operation at Union Carbide prior to 1974 ever 17 provide you any information regarding the 18 hazards of asbestos? 19 MR. BERGIN: I'm going to object on 20 the grounds that it's irrelevant to any issues 21 in this case, as Calidria has not been 22 identified by anybody as a product used by 23 anybody, and this witness said he did not use 24 Calidria in the Bakelite. 25 Q. Now you can answer the question. 110 111 112 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 InF, 1 A. Are you saying I can answer the 2 question? 3 Q. Yes, sir, you can. 4 A. Well, since I never used it, I was 5 never given any data sheets on it. 6 Q. Besides data sheets, did they ever 7 give you any other information warning you of 8 the hazards of asbestos? 9 MR. BERGIN: Same objection. This is 10 getting way far afield. 11 Q. You can still answer the question. 12 A. Since my contacts with them were so 13 limited, I would prefer not to answer that. 14 Q. Understanding that you prefer not 15 to answer that. 16 MR. BERGIN: I'm going to instruct 17 him not to answer at this point because there 18 is no Calidria issue in this case. The 19 testimony of the plaintiff himself reputed the 20 content of an affidavit and Mr. Frye's 21 testimony yesterday's. There is no witness on 22 anybody's witness list to identify any Calidria 23 used in this case. 24 This witness has already said he's 25 never seen the operation. He had no control or 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Fr 1 connection with it. This is a fishing 2 expedition and it's way beyond any permissible 3 scope. We've been going for hours, and I'm 4 going to instruct him not to answer. 5 MR. BOITER: At this point I have no 6 further questions. Regarding my right, assuming 7 the judge agrees with me that that is a fair 8 area of questioning to get into, I reserve my 9 right to reexamine this testimony at a minimum 10 of what he's testified to. That's all the 11 questions I have. 12 MR. BOITER: Jim, do you have any 13 questions? 14 MR. SNYDER: No. 15 MR. BERGIN: I have some. 16 BY MR. BERGIN: 17 Q. Mr. Martino, did Union Carbide 18 manufacture and sell Bakelite from its Bound 19 Brook facility in 1952 through 1954? 20 A. No. The plant was destroyed by a 21 fire and had to be completely rebuilt. At that 22 time in order to keep our customers supplied, 23 formulations were given to our competitors and 24 our competitors supplied them. 25 Q. Are you familiar with a company 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 InFrye 1 Durez, D-U-R-E-Z? 2 A. Yes, I am. 3 Q. Were they one of the companies that 4 you competed with for sales to General Motors 5 and to Delco particularly? 6 A. They and Plenco. 7 Q. What is Plenco? 8 A. A plastic engineering company. 9 Q. That's P-L-E-N-C-O? 10 A. Right. 11 Q. Were they also -- was Plenco's 12 product 523 the competitor's products with BMG 13 5276? 14 MR. BOITER: I'm going to object to 15 that question as leading. 16 MR. BERGIN: That's on 17 cross-examination. 18 MR. BOITER: It's not 19 cross-examination. It's your witness. I object 20 to that whole series of questions as leading. 21 MR. BERGIN: You object to the form. 22 That's your right. 23 MR. BOITER: I'm objecting as 24 leading, correct. 25 Q. Did you understand the question? 113 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 InFrye 1 A. Yes. Am I allowed to answer it? 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. Yes. Those two products are 4 equivalent in performance. 5 Q. Was BMG 5276, BMR 5276, BMS 5276 6 and BMW 5276 a Bakelite molding compound or 7 resin that contained the same chemical 8 constituents? 9 MR. BOITER: Again I'm going to 10 object to the form of the question as leading. 11 This is your own witness. Assuming this is the 12 case you intend to use at trial, it will be 13 your witness on direct, and I object to it as 14 leading in that context, for sure. 15 Q. Go ahead and answer the question, 16 please. 17 A. The third letter is a change in 18 granulation, so that's the difference between 19 those products. The composition is the same. 20 Q. So, 5276 is a product that 21 regardless of which of those four captions it 22 would have had, or introductory letters, it 23 would have had the same chemical constituents? 24 A. You said BM and you changed the 25 third letter, and the third letter is granular 114 115 116 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 form and not composition. 2 Q. And then two of them had either - 3 one had an S; one had a W? 4 MR. BOITER: I object to the 5 question as leading and move to strike his 6 answer as nonresponsive. He is your witness. If 7 you ask him a bunch of leading questions, can I 8 just have an objection to leading for all these 9 questions that are leading or do you want me to 10 do it every time? 11 MR. BERGIN: I'm happy to agree to 12 you having a standing objection. 13 Q. Do you understand the question? 14 A. No, I'm lost. Would you please 15 rephrase that. 16 Q. The product numbers that I asked 17 you were BMG 5276, BMR 5276, BMS 5276 and BMW 18 5276. My question really is are they all 19 basically the same chemical constituent 20 products? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Was that product a wood flour 23 filler product? 24 A. Yes, it was. 25 Q. Did it contain any asbestos of any 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 kind? 2 A. No, it did not. 3 Q. Was that a product that was in 4 production before you took over as the group 5 manager? 6 A. Yes, it was. 7 Q. Has that been a long-standing 8 product that was produced by Union Carbide 9 during the entire period that you were an 10 employee there, beginning in the late 1940s? 11 A. I know it was produced before I 12 took over the group. I don't know how far back 13 it went. 14 Q. So, it went back at least to some 15 period of time before you were there? 16 A. Yes. It went back to the mid-'50s, 17 because it was in our new nomenclature. What I 18 don't know was whether there was a prior number 19 that was crossed over to BMG 5276 when the new 20 nomenclature system was introduced. 21 Q. Now, calling your attention to the 22 procedure at Union Carbide, was there a 23 procedure for getting a product into the 24 production stage? Was there some procedure by 25 which somebody would request transfer of a 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 product to a final manufacturing status? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. One of the products that you were 4 asked about was BMMA 5020. 5 A. Right. 6 Q. Isn't it a fact that that is a 7 product in which you made therequest tohave 8 it transferred to manufacturing inJanuary of 9 1967? 10 A. It probably was. 11 Q. If that, in fact, is thedate in 12 which the report requesting final manufacturing 13 status dates from, could that product have been 14 made or sold to Delco Remy before 1967? 15 A. No, itwould not. It's possible 16 that they got a sample before that. 17 Q. It would not have been something 18 that could have been purchased for production 19 purposes by any customer? 20 A. Only if Delco Remy had requested a 21 -- if after the sample they had asked for more 22 material and it was still experimental status. 23 Let's say they ordered 10,000 pounds. We would 24 have requested an experimental run and made it 25 and sent it to them for further tests. But I 117 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 don't think that occurred. I think they got the 2 sample and we never heard what they did with 3 it. 4 Q. And is that a product that was 5 designed to becompetitive with the Durez 265 6 product? 7 A. I'm not that familiar with the 8 Durez 265. We were offering it as, I think, an 9 improved version of 5276 or the 5507, I 10 believe, hoping that the improved performance 11 would get us more business. 12 Q. Was Bakelite molding compounds or 13 Bakelite resin sold to the man-on-the-street 14 type consumers or was it sold only to 15 commercial purchasers? 16 A. Only commercial purchasers. The man 17 on the street wouldn't know what to do with it. 18 Q. Now, with regards to Bakelite 19 resins and Bakelite moldingcompounds, to your 20 knowledge,was it ever sold for use to be added 21 with plaster type products for insulating pipe 22 covering or other type ofthermalinsulation 23 products? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Was it ever made or sold for use as 118 119 120 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 a -- strike that. You were asked some questions 2 about some tests that you performed or had the 3 safety department perform in your laboratory 4 with regard to the use of Bakelite material to 5 make ash trays. Do you recall that testimony? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. When you called the safety 8 department, did they have to go outside the 9 plant in order to locate the equipment or to 10 perform the procedures to test the air? 11 A. No. 12 Q. So, were they able to simply send 13 somebody up that was knowledgeable in air 14 testing and had the equipment and was able to 15 do it and give you an answer as to whether or 16 not you were within OSHA requirements? 17 A. Thatis correct. He had been doing 18 this for any other department that requested 19 assistance. 20 Q. You were asked a number of 21 questions about microscopic tests. Am I 22 correct that if a product in the first initial 23 visual inspection suggested that there had not 24 been complete encapsulation of components so 25 that you had a homogenous product that would be 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 a production issue that would have to be 2 resolved before the product could be shipped to 3 a customer? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Were there then a number of tests 6 that could be run, depending upon the nature of 7 what the observation was, to find out whether 8 there was a manufacturing problem, and if so, 9 what the solution would be so that the customer 10 would get a homogenouscoated product? 11 A. Most likely the product would 12 either be rejected -- most likely it would be 13 rejected if it didn't pass the test. That meant 14 it would be blended back into the next 15 production run and recompounded. 16 Now, if it was a contaminant that 17 got into it that would not -- didn't belong 18 there, then the material would be sent to the 19 dump. 20 Q. Are you generally familiar with the 21 use of Bakelite for use in molded Bakelite 22 automobile components, like distributor caps 23 and -- as part of ignition switches and that 24 sort of thing? 25 A. Yes, I am. 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 Q. What kinds of Bakelite would be 2 perfectly suitable for any such application? 3 A. Wood flour filled. 4 Q. Would there be any heat or other 5 reason for that kind of application to require 6 asbestos in Bakelite? 7 A. Not in those applications. 8 Q. Was the Bakelite that did contain 9 asbestos more expensive, cheaper or the same 10 price as the wood filled? 11 A. In some cases it was a higher price 12 was charged. The exception to that was the BMM, 13 the 5020. That would have been sold for the 14 same price as the general purpose compound, but 15 it still would be slightly more expensive to 16 the molder because the specific gravity would 17 have been higher and he would have gotten fewer 18 parts. 19 Q. To your knowledge, during the 20 entire period you were associated with Bakelite 21 products, did Delco Remy have more than one 22 supplier of Bakelite resins? 23 A. They sure did. After our plant was 24 shut down, anybody who had bought 100 percent 25 of their product from us made sure they had 121 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 another source of supply, and automotive 2 companies in particular did that and played one 3 supplieragainst theother to get the lowest 4 price. 5 Q. And after the plant was rebuilt in 6 1954, did Union Carbide have to go back to 7 customers like Delco Remy and fight to 8 recapture any of their market share from our 9 competitors that had beenfilling that need for 10 the past two years? 11 A. Yes. In fact, before the '50s, 12 Bakelite was number one in the industry by far. 13 After that plant shut down it slipped to number 14 two. Durez became number one. Plenco was 15 almost equal to us. They never recovered from 16 it. 17 Q. To your knowledge, was Bakelite 18 molding compounds or resin ever offered on the 19 market as a refractory product suitable for 20 lining furnaces or ovens that would hold molten 21 metal? 22 A. No, no. 23 Q. Were those temperatures sufficient 24 to, I guess, destroy or consume phenolic 25 resins? 122 123 124 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 A. They would lose their integrity. 2 Two reasons I say no, that it wasn't used 3 there. One is to mold phenolic compounds you 4 need temperatures of about 350 degrees 5 Fahrenheit and high pressures over 1,000 pounds 6 per square inch. That requires a sizable 7 machine to accomplish. It can't be used in any 8 operation where you are trying to coat 9 something in the plant. It just doesn't work. 10 The foundry business that I was 11 familiar with blended phenolic resin with sand, 12 and I don't know what other ingredients they 13 put in there because I wasn't that close to 14 what was going on, but then they would use that 15 sand mixture to make molds and then they would 16 pour the molten metal into those molds and cast 17 parts. 18 So, you had to have ingredients 19 there that would hold up to those temperatures. 20 The phenolic resin that is used as a binder 21 held its integrity long enough under those 22 temperatures to keep the mold together until 23 the metal cooled down. 24 Q. Did those phenolic resins that were 25 used for the purpose of making molds in 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 foundries contain any asbestos? 2 A. Not at all, no. 3 Q. I believe that's all I have. 4 MR. BOITER: I have a few 5 follow-ups. 6 BY MR. BOITER: 7 Q. It sounded like from your answers 8 to some of Mr. Bergin's questions when you talk 9 about the Durez and the Plenco companies that 10 you at least have some reasonable familiarity 11 with the type of product that was being 12 manufactured by your competitors; would that be 13 correct? 14 A. Where they were competitors of ours 15 and we were trying to get their business, we 16 would try to learn as much as we could about 17 the product. 18 We kept -- we monitored their data 19 sheets on a regular basis to see what they were 20 doing; and if we had a report from the 21 salespeople that there was a new product out 22 there, we would try to get a sample and analyze 23 it as quickly as we could. So, we had a pretty 24 good idea of what their product line was. 25 Q. Was there another company that sold 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 or marketed a phenolic resin compound 2 containing African blue asbestos under the name 3 Bakelite? 4 A. I don't know of any, no. That was a 5 real oddball product. I don't know who would 6 want to make it. 7 Q. To your knowledge, Union Carbide 8 was the only one making thatproduct? 9 A. Yes, and that was, as I said, 10 eliminated as soon as we -- management could. 11 Q. You mentioned the fire in '55. It 12 sounded like what you were trying to indicate 13 was it made your customers kind of nervous that 14 they were depending on you guys and found they 15 could get their supply interrupted. Is that 16 what you were suggesting? 17 A. Prior to that plant fire we had 18 some customers that bought 100 percent of their 19 requirements from us. 20 Q. What percentage was Delco Remy 21 buying from you? 22 A. At that time I don't know if they 23 were. Now, the automotive industry had as its 24 policy to never depend on one supplier, and if 25 they did, to be sure that that supplier had 125 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 more than one plant. And sometimes even that 2 wasn't sufficient. So, I don't know if Delco 3 Remy was one of our 100 percent customers prior 4 to the fire. 5 Q. When did that become the operating 6 policy for the automotive industry? 7 A. I can't give you a date how far 8 back that went. Of course, in the 1940s when 9 Bakelite was the only product they could get, 10 they had no choice. 11 Q. How many other competitors were 12 there to Bakelite in the'40s? 13 A. In the '40s there were quite a few. 14 That was when Bakelite, the patent expired in 15 1927, and people and companies that were 16 waiting on the sidelines for that to happen 17 jumped in. Durez, Plastic Engineering Company, 18 who was -- in the industry they were called 19 Plenco, Right Gold, General Electric, 20 Westinghouse, Westinghouse made the material 21 primarily for its internal use. 22 Ford. Now, Ford had a policy, and I 23 don't know when that started, of on major 24 materials that they purchased they would go 25 into the business themselves of making it for 126 127 128 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 50 percent of the product, if they could, so 2 that they could get a good idea of what the 3 cost should be. Then they used that information 4 to get the best price out of their suppliers. 5 For a while they were making their 6 own phenolic compounds. Then there were a lot 7 of specialty people who were not -- in a way 8 were our customers, like Fiberite. They would 9 buy the resin from us and add their own 10 fillers, like fiberglass and so forth. And they 11 had special processes for making high impact 12 and, in fact, high impact heat resistant 13 materials. Those were sold at much higher 14 prices because of the specialty nature. 15 Q. Any others you can think of? 16 A. There were other thermoset 17 manufacturing producers, but they were other 18 thermosetting resins. No others that I can 19 remember that were phenolic molding material 20 producers. 21 Q. Do you have any specific knowledge 22 that any of the companies you just mentioned 23 were selling phenolic resins to Delco Remy in 24 the '40s and '50s? 25 A. Durez and Plastic Engineering 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 Company would be the two that would be most 2 likely to. 3 Q. Do you have any specific 4 information that they did? 5 A. In the '40s and '50s. 6 MR. BERGIN: Are you including the 7 time after the fire? 8 MR. BOITER: I'm talking the '40s 9 and '50s. 10 A. I did not have any reports in that 11 period of time because I was not working in 12 that area, so I don't know exactly what they 13 were buying. In the '40s the products they were 14 buying would be different than the designations 15 that we were talking about. There was an 16 entirely different nomenclature system. So, 17 even if we had those numbers, it would be 18 difficult to tell whether it was same thing 19 they are buying now or not. 20 Q. By way of example, you were talking 21 about earlier -- you and Mr. Bergin were 22 talking about a product that had a designation 23 BMMA 5020. Do you have knowledge whether that 24 product or a product like it -- let me back up. 25 The BMM 5020 product, you don't have any 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 knowledge as to whether that product was or 2 wasn't being sold to Delco Remy in the '40s and 3 '50s, a product of that designation coming 4 on-line? 5 A. It was not because it was not 6 available then.There would nothave been an 7 equivalent. 8 Q. Over those years there have been a 9 lot of refinements in thefillerstechnology 10 and resin technology and the purity of the 11 different ingredients, so that all of those 12 improvements would have beenincorporated into 13 the newer products? 14 A. I have no -- there would not be a 15 5020 equivalent in the '40s and '50s. 16 Q. That's sort of my point exactly. 17 When the two of you all were discussing -- you 18 and Bergin were discussing the BMMA 5020 you 19 indicated it was January of 1967 when that 20 product came on-line. 21 A. January of 1967 did you say? 22 Q. Right. 23 A. That is when it was considered to 24 be a commercial product and could be sampled to 25 any customers. 129 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 Q. Is it a fair statement that to say 2 January of 1967 when BMMA 5020 came on-line, 3 that doesn't mean that Delco Remy had never 4 used an asbestos-containing Bakelite compound 5 from Union Carbide? 6 MR. BERGIN: Read that back, please. 7 Q. Simply because the BMMA 5020 came 8 on-line in January of 1967 doesn't mean that 9 you can draw the conclusion that Delco Remy 10 never had an asbestos-containing Bakelite 11 compound they purchased from Union Carbide that 12 they used? 13 MR. GLASSER: Objection as to form. 14 You can answer it if you understand. 15 A. To answer that-16 Q. If you don't understand,say so and 17 I will rephrase it. 18 A. There is no reason forme to 19 believe they would, unless they had some 20 special applications different than those we 21 were familiar with. I'm assuming that they were 22 making distributor caps then, just as they were 23 in the -- when I was involved. They didn't 24 change in design that much. 25 Q. Do you know that to be afact in 130 131 132 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 the '40s and '50s? 2 A. Well, the distributor cap on my 3 1948 Chevy didn't change much until they 4 started making electronic ignitions. 5 Q. That wasn't my question. 6 MR. BERGIN: I think it was 7 responsive, though. 8 Q. Tell me all the things you know 9 were going on at the Delco Remy plant in the 10 1940s. The reason for my asking that question 11 is simple. I want to know what you knew about 12 their operations in the '40s. 13 A. I was going to Carnegie-Mellon 14 University. I didn't know anything about what 15 they were doing. You can get that from my 16 history. 17 Q. I understood that. I thought you 18 were trying to indicate a while ago what they 19 were doing in the '40s at Delco Remy. I 20 understand you don't know. 21 MR. BERGIN: I'm going to object. 22 The questions are becoming very argumentative, 23 and to ask him the general question is 24 completely different from his earlier statement 25 where he said the product he knew was on a car 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 he had in 1948 made by General Motors was the 2 same kind that they had during the period of 3 time he was selling product for General Motors. 4 That is a different proposition and you are 5 getting quarrelsome and argumentative when you 6 say, tell me everything you know about Delco 7 Remy. 8 MR. BOITER: I'm moving on. I'm 9 sorry if you think I'm being quarrelsome and 10 argumentative. 11 Q. When air sampling was done, the air 12 sampling that you requested that one time, was 13 actually done by the safety department. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. What type of equipment did they 16 use? 17 A. It was the standard equipment used 18 to sample air in the industry at that time, but 19 I don't remember the details of exactly how - 20 what it looked like and how it operated. That 21 was in -- that's over 35 years ago. 22 Q. Did I understand your testimony to 23 be that you felt they were quite capable of 24 doing the testing? 25 A. Yes. I thought quite highly of our 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 safety department. We were very conscious about 2 not only the health hazards of our chemicals, 3 but also of the potential explosion hazards. We 4 had to be very careful with dust. A combination 5 of dust and oxygen can cause an explosion and 6 was the cause of that fire that destroyed our 7 plant. That made not only Union Carbide very 8 conscious of the consequences of too much dust, 9 but also our customers, and probably the reason 10 they put the label on the back in the first 11 place. 12 Q. Is it your opinion that Union 13 Carbide could have done that same kind of 14 testing in the '50s if they wanted to? 15 MR. BERGIN: I'm going to object. 16 You are asking somebody for whom there is no 17 basis in competence laid. He's not being 18 offered as an industrial hygienist. 19 MR. BOITER: I do differ, because he 20 just described to me what the safety department 21 was and he was the person who asked for the 22 testing to be done, and I'm asking him if that 23 could have been done in the '50s. 24 MR. BERGIN: You haven't shown he 25 had that position or that knowledge or any 133 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 position so he would be in a position to make 2 that statement about their capabilities. 3 MR. BOITER: Is that another 4 question you are instructing him not to answer? 5 MR. BERGIN: I'm objecting on the 6 grounds that you are going way beyond what 7 there has been a foundation of competence. 8 Q. Do you recall my question, Mr. 9 Martino? Because it's okay for you to answer 10 it. 11 A. Let me put it this way. The 12 technology was not rocket science, so if it was 13 needed, I see no reason why it couldn't have 14 been used. It didn't require the development 15 of new technology. 16 Q. Would it have also been important 17 for the safety department to do that same type 18 of test in a control environment where the 19 worker would have been protected without the 20 hood or ventilation being on to determine 21 whether there was significant fiber release or 22 not? 23 MR. BERGIN: I'm going to object. 24 There's no showing he's competent to testify as 25 an industrial hygienist. It's an unfair 134 135 136 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 imposition on this person to suggest that he 2 has that competence, and I will instruct him 3 not to answer because it is an attempt to 4 elicit technical expert opinions from somebody 5 who has not got the credentials to make that 6 kind of testimony. 7 MR. BOITER: Just to make the note? 8 MR. BERGIN: That's right. I'm 9 instructing him not to answer that question. 10 MR. BOITER: He's the one who 11 ordered the original test, so I am assuming he 12 had the knowledge and expertise. 13 MR. BERGIN: Different kinds of 14 tests. 15 Q. I want to talk to you a little bit 16 about your knowledge of the use of the phenolic 17 resins in the foundries. I guess I want to 18 start off by asking you what foundries did you 19 actually visit. 20 A. None. I was not responsible for 21 that area of the business. My only familiarity 22 with it is through conversations with a friend 23 who did work in that area. I never saw -- I 24 was never in a foundry and never saw them do 25 what I described. Of course, there's a lot of 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 inFrye 1 literature, and our own literature went into 2 detail about the foundry industry, so anybody 3 who wanted to get it could just read about it. 4 Q. Who is this friend you talked to? 5 A. Bill Coygen, but he's dead. 6 Q. What did he do? 7 A. He was responsible for servicing 8 the phenolic -- the foundry industry and 9 providing whatever resins and technical 10 assistance they needed to use our resins. 11 Q. Any idea who his customers were? 12 A. I know Ford had a foundry. I don't 13 know if Delco Remy had one or not. But I would 14 imagine that in the General Motors organization 15 there was one. 16 And then there were small companies 17 that provided that service, would actually cast 18 the parts and would make their own molds, but I 19 don't remember what the names of those 20 companies were. 21 Q. Do you feel competent to talk to me 22 about the various uses of phenolic resins in 23 foundries? 24 A. No, I don't. All I can say is that 25 I remember hearing they were selling powdered 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 resins to them. They might have also sold 2 liquid resin to them. What I can say is that 3 any resin that we sold to customers did not 4 contain asbestos. That I can say with 5 certainty. 6 Q. Was there any difference in the 7 strength of a product -- we're talking about a 8 phenolic resin molding product, depending on 9 whether the filler was a wood or asbestos 10 filler? 11 A. Oh, yes. Strength is how you define 12 it. 13 Q. Define it how you would define it 14 by you just responding, "oh, yes." 15 A. The modulus, the rigidity -- that's 16 why I said, "oh, yes." It's a more rigid 17 product. Any mineral will increase the rigidity 18 of the phenolic composition, and there isn't 19 much difference between asbestos, talc and any 20 other mineral filler inthat regard. They all 21 have the same effect. Andthe specific gravity 22 goes up roughly the same when you use it. So, 23 in that regard you do get a difference. But in 24 terms of impact strength, we're talking small 25 differences. 137 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 Q. I am sorry. Did you say no 2 differences? 3 A. Small differences. The asbestos 4 fiber might give you maybe 10, 15 percent 5 improvement in impact strength, if that. 6 Q. If I were looking to have a little 7 bit better product, might I not consider using 8 the asbestos fiber to strengthen my product? 9 A. If you were looking for what? 10 Q. If you are looking to have a 11 product which is just a little bit better than 12 the next guy? 13 MR. BERGIN: I object on the grounds 14 that you are calling on him to speculate what 15 somebody else might do, and he's not competent 16 to do it and he's not qualified to do it. It's 17 far afield. It's beyond anything I opened up by 18 my questions. 19 MR. BOITER: I'm asking it in 20 regards to whether or not asbestos would have 21 been used in products at Delco Remy. I 22 appreciate your indicating you instruct him not 23 to answer. 24 MR. BERGIN: If you want to rephrase 25 it so you include it to have a competent 138 139 140 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 InF, 1 question that's relevant. 2 MR. BOITER: You're instructed him 3 not to answer. I understand. 4 MR. BERGIN: I'm instructing him not 5 to answer the question. If you want to ask a 6 different question. 7 A. Could I make a comment that's not 8 directly related? Delco-9 MR. BERGIN: The witness wants to be 10 heard. 11 MR. BOITER: If you objected to my 12 question, then it's not his turn to talk. 13 Q. But I do have another question for 14 you. Maybe that will give you an opportunity to 15 bring it in. 16 What basis do you have as you sit 17 here today to candidly say or to say as a fact 18 that Delco Remy would never have used asbestos 19 in their Bakelite automotive products if one of 20 the considerations -- and it's just an if - 21 was potentially they wanted a product that 22 would be slightly better than the other guy's 23 product. 24 MR. BERGIN: Objection to form. It's 25 quarrelsome and argumentative. 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 InFrye 1 Q. You can answer the question if you 2 understood it. 3 MR. BERGIN: And compound. 4 A. Delco Remy did buy an improved 5 impact material that contained some cotton 6 flock in it. I think it was 5507. It didn't 7 have to be asbestos. 8 Q. Well, but how do you completely 9 rule out -- how do you completely rule out as a 10 factual statement that Delco Remy would never 11 had used an asbestos-containing Bakelite 12 product in their automotive parts? 13 THE WITNESS: Mike, is that part of 14 your previous objection? 15 MR. BERGIN: You can answer that 16 question. We are objecting to the general form 17 of the question. But your question is how can 18 he rule it out. 19 A. I can't say with certainty that 20 they never used an asbestos material. For all I 21 know they could have bought it from Durez and 22 Plenco and used it for some specialty 23 application. 24 I had a problem keeping up with all 25 we were doing in our company, let alone Delco 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 InFrye 1 Remy. 2 MR. BOITER: That's all I have. 3 MR. BERGIN: I have just one last. 4 BY MR. BERGIN: 5 Q. You've been asked several times 6 about apparently a low production specialty 7 product that at one time had some -- was made 8 at Union Carbide that had some blue asbestos in 9 it. Is that the kind of product that would have 10 had any application in the manufacture of 11 domestic automobile parts? 12 A. No. 13 MR. BOITER: Object as leading. 14 A. Well. 15 Q. I am sorry. Isthere anyquestion 16 in your mind that that would not have been an 17 appropriate product to use for the manufacture 18 of automobile parts? 19 MR. BOITER: Again, object as 20 leading. 21 A. I don't know why they would use it, 22 frankly. It's difficult to mold. It costs -- I 23 think it was one of our highest priced 24 products. 25 Q. Would it have been suitable to use 141 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 in the same kinds of equipment that would have 2 used, for instance, your standard molding 3 compounds that have the wood, such as 5276? 4 A. No, I would never use it there. Why 5 should I? 6 Q. It wouldn't have been used in the 7 same kind of equipment? 8 A. They would have a hell of a time 9 feeding it. They would have a lot of plugged up 10 tubes. 11 BY MR. BOITER: 12 Q. As we sit here today, could you 13 tell this jury as a factual matter that you 14 know that Delco Remy did not use African blue 15 or a Bakelite compound containing African blue 16 asbestos-containing fibers? 17 MR. BERGIN: I'm going to object 18 unless you put a relevant time frame on it. 19 It's way beyond any discovery scope. 20 MR. BOITER: Ever. 21 Q. You can answer the question. 22 A. Are you putting a time frame on 23 this? 24 Q. I'm asking for any time frame that 25 you have any knowledge of, and I'm actually 142 143 144 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 InF, 1 talking about going back into the '40s. Let's 2 back up and do it that way. 3 MR. BERGIN: It's asking him a 4 negative question. It's an improper form. 5 MR. BOITER: I'm going to rephrase 6 the question. 7 Q. Can you sit here today and tell 8 this jury that, in fact, in the 1940s Bakelite 9 compounds containing African blue asbestos 10 fibers from Union Carbide were not used by 11 Delco Remy? 12 MR. BERGIN: Which Delco Remy? 13 MR. BOITER: Any Delco Remy he knows 14 of. 15 MR. BERGIN: I'm going to object and 16 instruct him not to answer and limit it to the 17 Anderson, Indiana, and they were limited by Mr. 18 Frye to 1951 to 1958, according to his 19 testimony yesterday. 20 MR. BOITER: I will rephrase, but 21 I'm not going to make it as limited as you 22 suggested. 23 Q. As we sit here today can you tell 24 the jury for a fact that in the 1940s at the 25 Delco Remy plant in Anderson, Indiana, that 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 InFrye 1 Bakelite compounds containing asbestos blue - 2 African blue asbestos fibers sold by Union 3 Carbide were not used at that plant? 4 MR. BERGIN: I'm going to again 5 object. I will instruct him not to answer 6 unless you are willing to limit it to questions 7 relevant to this case. 8 MR. BOITER: I do not in this case 9 -- in this case I do not have to limit it to 10 that. I'm asking if he has any knowledge. 11 MR. BERGIN: I'm going to instruct 12 him not to answer because you're refusing to 13 limit it to a relevant time, place or location. 14 MR. BOITER: That's fine. He 15 testified he gained knowledge when he got there 16 from before 1960 and 1958 and 1948 when he 17 started working there. As long as you are 18 instructing him not to answer. 19 MR. BERGIN: I'm willing to limit it 20 to any relevant period of time in this case. 21 Your client talked about 1951 to 1958 at Delco 22 Remy in Anderson, Indiana. The much broader 23 question he is not being offered as a witness 24 in our case on. 25 Q. My next question, Mr. Martino. As 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 InFrye 1 you sit here today, can you tell this jury as a 2 fact that you know that in the 1950s Bakelite 3 compounds containing African blue asbestos 4 fibers sold by Union Carbide were not used at 5 the Delco Remy plant in Anderson, Indiana? 6 A. I'm not an expert on all that Delco 7 Remy was doing at that plant. I only know what 8 is likely to be used in the molding of phenolic 9 compounds, so I can't say that they didn't use 10 it someplace. 11 I'm saying that it is not the type 12 of product that is commonly used for the type 13 of parts that I am familiar with that they were 14 making for the automotive industry by the 15 molding process for phenolic compounds. They 16 could have been doing a lot of other things 17 that might have required this product. I'm not 18 familiar with those. 19 Q. That was my point. I think you and 20 I are on the same wavelength. 21 A. I'm a molding expert, not a Delco 22 Remy expert. 23 Q. Is it fair to say you have some 24 ideas about what you think was going on at 25 Delco Remy, but as you sit here today to say 145 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 factually it was never used, you just can't do 2 that? 3 A. No. You might say used in the 4 foundry industry. Why didn't they buy the 5 asbestos directly and add it themselves? But I 6 don't know enoughabout theiroperationto know 7 how they might use that product if theydid buy 8 it. 9 One other point I want to make is 10 the customers loved our drums and used them in 11 their own plant for their own use, so just 12 because something in the drum marked phenolic 13 -- the drum is marked phenolic or Bakelite 14 doesn't mean that that product was necessarily 15 ours. 16 Q. How often did you see that happen 17 at Delco Remy? 18 A. I didn't see it at Delco Remy. I 19 saw it at all the other customers' plants and 20 it was common practice, because the drums were 21 so handy to use. The customers loved them. So, 22 I don't see why Delco Remy would be any 23 different than anybody else. 24 MR. BOITER: Mike Schultz, you have 25 anything else? I'm done. 146 147 148 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 InF, 1 MR. SCHULTZ: Nothing here. 2 MR. SNYDER: Nothing on this part by 3 Jim Snyder either. 4 MR. BOITER: Do we need to do the 5 read and sign thing on the record? 6 MR. BERGIN: We do read and sign. 7 (Whereupon, the deposition was 8 adjourned at 7:05 p.m.) 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 InFrye 1 CERTIFICATE 2 3 I, PHYLLIS SEMANCHIK, a Certified 4 Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public of the 5 State of New Jersey, do hereby certify that 6 prior to the commencement of the examination, 7 the witness was duly sworn by me to testify to 8 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the 9 truth. 10 I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that the foregoing is 11 a true and accurate transcript of the testimony 12 as taken stenographically by and before me at 13 the time, place and on the date hereinbefore 14 set forth, to the best of my ability. 15 I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither 16 a relative nor employee nor attorney nor 17 counsel of any of the parties to this action, 18 and that I am neither a relative nor employee 19 of such attorney or counsel, and that I am not 20 financially interested in the action. 21 22 23 24 PHYLLIS SEMANCHIK, CSR NO. 1200 25 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 InFrye 1 JURAT 2 3 4 I have read my testimony in the foregoing 5 transcript and believe it to be true and 6 correct to the best of my knowledge and belief. 7 8 9 10 11 CARLO MARTINO 12 13 14 15 Sworn and subscribed to before me this 16 day of ,2001. 17 18 19 20 21 22 Notary Public of the 23 State of 24 25 149 5/9/2001 Martino, Carlo 09/05/2001 in Frye 1 ERRATA 2 Case Name: FRYE V. ACandS, INC. 3 Deposition of: CARLO MARTINO 4 Date Taken: WEDNESDAY, MAY 9, 2001 5 Reporter: PHYLLIS A. SEMANCHIK 6 PAGE LINE CHANGE 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 150 151 152