Document 9JVGg5BMQQ027bO93y88bn4Z5

FILE NAME: Phenolic Resins (PHR) DATE: 2004 June 3 DOC#: PHR025 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Legal - Deposition of Marjorie A. Drucker, Vol. 1 Page 1 l I2 SUPREME COURT: ALL COUNTIES WITHIN THE STATE OF NEW YORK IN RE: NEW YORK STATE ASBESTOS LITIGATION DEPOSITION UNDER ORAL EXAMINATION OF MARJORIE A. DRUCKER This Document Applies To: FRANK CAMPA - Index N o .: 109449/03 ALEX RENOW - Index No.: 106444/03 RONALD SPINELLI Index N o .: 109214/03 MARVIN ZATZ - Index N o .: 103644/03 PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING SERVICES, INC. 899 Manor Road Staten Island, NY 10314 (718) 983-1234 PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 3 Page 2 1 2 3 4 Transcript of the deposition of the 5 witness, called for Oral Examination in the 6 above-captioned matter, said deposition being 7 taken pursuant to Federal Rules of Civil 8 Procedure by and before ELEANOR SEKULIC, a 9 Notary Public and Shorthand Reporter, at the 10 Offices of SEDGWICK, DETERT, MORAN & ARNOLD, 11 ESQS., 125 Broad Street, 39th Floor, New York, 12 New York, on Thursday, June 3,2004, commencing 13 at 9:55 a.m. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I N D E X T O W i r NESSES: WITNESS: EXAMINATION: PAGE: Maijorie A. Drucker Mr. Kristal - Direct 6 INDEX NUMBER. P-Drucker-1 P-Drucker-2 P-Drucker-3 P-Drucker-4 P-Drucker-5 P-Drucker-6 P-Drucker-7 TO EXHIBITS: DESCRIPTION: PAGE: 2-Page Letter 5/19/04 6 Resume 122 Asbestos Library Catalog 180 Various Documents 216 Various Documents 216 Videotape 226 Handwritten Note 227 INFORMATION AND/OR DOCUMENTS REQUESTED: 10 REQUEST: PAGE/LINE: Copy of Newspaper Column 128/3 Copy of Newspaper Article 129/25 List of Contacts 155/2 12 List 181/16 GE's Answers to Interrogatories 185/4 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4 APPEARANCES: WEITZ & LUXENBERG, PC ISO Maiden Lane, 17th Floor New York, New York 10038 By: JERRY KRISTAL, ESQ. Attorneys for the Plaintiffs SPEZIALI, GREENWALD & HAWKINS 1081 Winslow Road, Box 1086 Williantstown, New Jersey 08094 By: DAVID SPEZIALI Attorney for the Defendant General Electric SIDLEY, AUSTIN, BROWN & WOOD, LLP Bank One Plaza 10 S. Dearborn Street Chicago, Illinois 60603 By: TIMOTHY E. KAPSHANDY, ESQ Attorneys for the Defendant General Electnc 1 12 MALABY, CARLISLE & BRADLEY, LLC 150 Broadway New York, New York 10038 By: MICHELLE DULUC, ESQ. Attorneys for the Defendants I 15 Viacom, Weil-McLain and Warren Pumps 16 FLEMMING, ZULACK& WILLIAMSON, ESQS. One Liberty Plaza New York, New York By: SCOTT EMERY, ESQ. 18 Attorneys for the Defendant Goodyear 19 ANDERSON, KILL &OLICK, PC 1251 Avenue o f the Americas I 20 New York,NewY ork 10020 By: GARY CASIMIR, ESQ. Attorneys for the Defendants Amchem and Union Carbide I 22 PEHLIVANIAN & BRAATEN, LLC 23 Paynters Ridge Office Park 2430 Route 34 24 Manasquan, New Jersey 07836 By: CLAUDIA SOLIS, ESQ , O f Counsel 25 Attorneys for the Defendant Dresser-Rand Page 3 Page 5 1 2 3 4 STIPULATIONS 5 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED by and 6 among the attorneys for the respective parties 7 herein that the sealing, filing and 8 certification o f the within Examination Before 9 Trial be waived; that all objections, except as 10 to form, are reserved to the time o f trial; 11 That the transcript may be signed before 12 any Notary Public with the same force and effect 13 as if signed before a Clerk or Judge o f the 14 Court; 15 That this Examination Before Trial may be 16 utilized for all purposes as provided by the 17 CPLR; 18 That all rights provided to all parties by 19 the CPLR shall not be deemed waived and the 20 appropriate sections o f the CPLR shall be 21 controlling with respect thereto. 22 23 24 25 2 (Pages 2 to 5) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 6 Page 8 1 Matjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 M A R J O R I E A. D R U C K E R , having been 3 first duly sworn according to law by the Court 2 that case in it? 3 A. Well, specifically with regard to 4 Reporter, testifies as follows: 4 this case, I don't have a file. 5 5 Q. Okay. Do you maintain billing ; 6 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY 6 records? 7 MR. KRISTAL: 7 A. As part of my practice, yes, I keep : 8 Q. Good morning, Ms. Drucker. How are 8 track of my time and I maintain records for 9 you? 9 billing purposes. i 10 A. Good morning. Very well, thank you. 10 Q. Okay. So you have a billing record 11 Q. As I told you a few minutes ago, my 11 for this case, or these cases? ; 12 name is Jerry Kristal. I represent Campa, Renow, 12 A. As far as specifically with these 13 Zatz and Roth who have brought cases alleging 13 cases, I have not broken out really specifically 14 that their mesotheliomas were caused by asbestos 14 directed to these matters. ; 15 exposure and sued a number of different 16 companies. I assume you understand that? 17 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. When were you first contacted 16 by GE in terms of whether or not you want to be ; 17 engaged as a legal consultant with respect to 18 Q. Let me take care of some 19 housekeeping. I'm marking as Drucker 1 the May 18 the subject matters that you're going to be 19 testifying to in these cases, when were you 20 19th, 2004 disclosure of Ms. Drucker as a 21 witness. 22 (Whereupon, Two-Page Letter 5/19/01 23 is marked Plaintiffs Drucker Exhibit 1 For 24 Identification.) 25 Q. Ms. Drucker, have you seen that 20 generally first approached? 21 A. Toward the latter part of September 22 of last year I was contacted by Mr. Kapshandy 23 and spoke to him in general about similar issues 24 in regard to cases such as these. 25 Q. Do you have a file? I'm sorry. Page 7 Page 9 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 before? 3 (Whereupon, the witness peruses the 4 document.) 5 A. Yes, I have. 6 Q. Okay. When was the first time you saw 7 that, or a copy of that? 8 A. I recall seeing a copy of this about 9 two weeks ago. 10 Q. Okay. When were you first contacted 11 in these four cases? 12 A. With regard specifically to these 13 four cases, they were brought to my attention 14 about two weeks ago. 15 Q. Can you give me a date? Do you have a 16 file on this case? 17 A. No, I don't. 18 Q. Do you maintain any kind of file when 19 you do legal consulting for a particular case? 20 A. What do you mean by "any kind of 21 file"? 22 Q. Well, when you're contacted and you 23 agree to consult on a legal matter, do you have 24 a folder, a manila folder, or redwell, some kind 25 of system in which you keep information about 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 A. Excuse me. In matters related to . 3 asbestos. 4 Q. And who was the defendant, GE? 5 A. Yes, that's what was my 6 understanding, that these matters would be 7 related to GE. 8 Q. Okay. And what was your understanding 9 as to what you were being asked to do or take 10 part in back in September of 2003 when you were 11 first contacted? 12 A. In general, I was asked to look into 13 historical aspects of industrial hygiene, 14 state-of-the-art matters and asbestos with 15 relation to GE. 16 Q. Do you have a file for that work? 17 A. No, I don't have a file for that. 18 Q. Okay. Have you been recording the 19 hours? 20 A. Let me just say that with regard to 21 certain aspects of the broad aspect of work that 22 I did I have created some types of records, but 23 I don't know what you mean by the broad term 24 "file." 25 Q. Fair enough. 3 (Pages 6 to 9) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 10 Page 12 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 A. I have created certain records. 2 confused. I thought you said as to GE. 3 Q. Okay. 3 Q. Let me back up. Do you draw a 4 A. Since beginning this project. 4 distinction between historical aspect and 5 Q. Have you been paid by GE for any work 5 state-of-the-art matters, or are they 6 on this project yet? 6 synonymous? 7 A. Yes, I have. 7 A. It's a general question, and it would 8 Q. Okay. And did you bill them by the 8 depend on the specific question posed to me. 9 hour? 9 Q. Let me back up further. I asked you 10 A. Yes, I bill by the hour at my 11 standard rate. 12 Q. Okay. And that is? 13 A. My standard rate is $250 an hour for 14 preparation, $300 for testimony. 15 Q. Have you given any testimony 16 previously with respect to the subject matters 17 that GE had asked you to look into, the 18 historical aspects of industrial hygiene, 19 state-of-the-art matters and asbestos with 20 respect to GE? 21 A. With regard to this specific project 22 since September o f '03, no. 23 Q. Have you ever testified about those 24 subjects before? 25 A. Could you read them back, please? 10 what the scope of the project was, and I think 11 my notes are accurate. You said the historical 12 aspects of industrial hygiene, state-of-the-art 13 matters and asbestos with respect to GE. Is that 14 the scope of the project in terms of GE that you 15 were asked about? 16 A. Well, those are certain aspects of 17 the project. In general, I was asked to look at 18 GE and non-GE documents to determine their , 19 knowledge of the hazards of asbestos. 20 Q. What is your understanding of the 21 scope of the project that GE asked you to look 22 into, the entire scope since September '03? 23 A. The entire scope was to look at GE 24 and non-GE documents to determine, to address 25 GE's knowledge of the hazards of asbestos. Page 11 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. Sure? 3 MR. SPEZIALI: To clear your 4 confusion, if you include for GE in the tag 5 along to the question I think the answer 6 will be no, so you may be confused. If you 7 want to drop out the GE part, you'll 8 probably get to where you want to go. 9 Q. Have you ever testified about any of 10 those matters, historical aspects of industrial 11 hygiene, state-of-the-art matters and/or asbestos 12 with respect to GE? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Previous to September '03? 15 A. Those matters being specifically what 16 you just read, those three statements? 17 Q. Yes. 18 A. Yes. 19 MR. SPEZIALI: Can I put a 20 clarification? Did you understand him to 21 say as to GE? 22 MR. KRISTAL: No, I wasn't asking as 23 toGE. 24 MR. SPEZIALI: I thought you said that 25 at the end of your sentence. Maybe I'm Page 13 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. Anything else? 3 A. In general, I'd say yes, what the 4 scope was. 5 Q. Okay. How about specifically? 6 A. I don't understand the question. 7 Q. Well, you said generally that's what 8 the scope was. You said generally that's what 9 the scope was, and I want to be as specific as 10 you can get as to what the scope of the project 11 was? 12 A. In general, that's the scope. If you 13 ask me questions, I can answer them. 14 Q. Are there any other specific topics 15 other than looking at GE and non-GE documents to 16 address GE's knowledge of asbestos hazards? 17 A. I don't understand the question. 18 Q. Okay. I'm trying to find out what it 19 was you were asked to do by GE in September '03. 20 Are you with me so far? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Okay. And you said that you were 23 asked to look at GE and non-GE documents to 24 address GE's knowledge of asbestos hazards. Did 25 you say that? 4 (Pages 10 to 13) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 14 Page 16 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 A. Yes, I did. 2 A. Yes, those matters had to do with 3 Q. Okay. Anything else? 3 asbestos. 4 A. Well, if other things are posed to 4 Q. Can you tell me what you mean by the 5 me, it's possible. 5 historical aspects of industrial hygiene? 6 Q. I'm asking if anything else is to be 6 A. Industrial hygiene as a profession 7 posed to you? 7 has evolved over periods of time, and, at 8 A. Can I finish my answer, please? 8 various periods of time there were different 9 Q. I want you to answer the question. 9 states of knowledge with regard to the 10 The question is, was it your understanding that 10 recognition, evaluation and control of various 11 the project included anything else? 11 types of hazards in the workplace and 12 A. My understanding is that it may 12 non-workplace environments. 13 depending on what was posed to me over different 13 Q. Were you done? 14 periods of time, but, in general, I'd say that 14 A. Yes. 15 was a general scope of work for the project. 15 Q. Okay. When in your opinion was it 16 Q. When you say "it may," has it to date 16 first recognized in the industrial hygiene 17 involved anything else? 17 community that asbestos was a hazardous 18 A. Has it to date? 18 substance? 19 Q. The project involved anything other 19 A. In the 1930s it was recognized that 20 than looking at GE and non-GE documents to 20 high levels of asbestos dust could be hazardous 21 address GE's knowledge of asbestos hazards? 21 and could cause the fibrosis inducing condition 22 A. I would say in general the project 22 asbestosis. 23 has been within that scope. 23 Q. It was recognized in the industrial 24 Q. Okay. Is there anything you can think 24 hygiene community that asbestosis could be 25 of that has not been within that scope of what 25 potentially permanently disabling in the 1930s? Page 15 Page 17 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 you've been asked to do to date, not what you 3 may be asked to do at some point in the future? 4 A. The best way I can answer is to say 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 A. When you say "it was recognized"? 3 Q. Was the fact that asbestosis could 4 potentially be permanently disabling recognized 5 that, in general, it's within that scope. 5 in the industrial hygiene community in the 6 Q. Have you ever testified as to that 6 1930s? 7 subject, GE and non-GE documents to address GE's 8 knowledge of asbestos hazards? 9 A. That subject being GE's knowledge? 10 Q. Yes. 11 A. No, I have not testified on scope, as 12 I stated, on this GE project. 13 Q. Okay. Have you ever testified about 14 historical aspects of industrial hygiene 15 generally? 16 A. Yes. 7 A. I would say that in general in the 8 1930s it was known by the medical and scientific 9 community that high levels of asbestos dust 10 could cause the fibrosis condition asbestosis. 11 Q. Okay. Tell me what your understanding 12 is of what was known about asbestosis in the 13 1930s by the medical and scientific community? 14 A. The medical and scientific community 15 would have been aware in the 1930s that high 16 levels of asbestos dust could cause a condition, 17 Q. When was the first such time you did 18 that? 19 A. If I recall, that would go back to 20 the early to mid-1980s. 21 Q. And was the testimony with respect to 22 asbestos? 23 A. I'm going to correct that. I would 24 say the early to mid-1990s. 25 Q. Okay. 17 in this case, asbestosis. 18 Q. And what did that community know in 19 the 1930s as to what asbestosis was? 20 A. I think in general the medical and 21 scientific literature would have been aware that 22 high levels of asbestos could cause asbestosis, 23 which is a fibrotic lung condition and which can 24 lead to a disabling condition and ultimately 25 possibly death. 5 (Pages 14 to 17) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 18 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. Okay. When you say "high levels," 3 what do you mean? 4 A. Well, it depends on what time period 5 that we're looking at. 6 Q. Fair enough. You mentioned high 7 levels in the context of the 1930s, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. What do you mean? 10 A. Going back to the 1930s, I'd say by 11 the late 1930s, such as for this study that was 12 done by Dreesen, it was thought that high levels 13 of asbestos dust, meaning those levels in excess 14 of five million particles per cubic foot could 15 possibly lead to asbestosis. 16 Q. Five million particles per cubic foot 17 of what? 18 A. Well, again, going back to the 19 Dreesen study, the level that they concluded 20 that was the safe level was five million 21 particles per cubic foot of asbestos dust. 22 Q. And what do you mean by "asbestos 23 dust"? 24 A. By "asbestos dust," I mean dust that 25 is asbestos. Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 dust. 3 Q. Were you done? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And, therefore, five million 6 particles per cubic foot means total dust? 7 MR. SPEZIALI: You're talking about 8 Dreesen, aren't you? 9 MR. KRISTAL: Yes. 10 A. Well, with regard to Dreesen, that 11 would have been dust, total dust containing 12 asbestos. 13 Q. Okay. So if you take your impinger 14 and you collect -- 15 A. They did some break-outs, 1should 16 say, about asbestos. 17 Q. I'm just trying to find out when you 18 use the term five million particles per cubic 19 foot of asbestos dust if you're talking about 20 five million asbestos fibers or five million 21 particles of total dust in the sample or 22 something else? 23 A. According to Dreesen, it would have 24 been five million particles of total dust in 25 that type of a sample, meaning by the Page 20 ; ; Page 19 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. Hundred percent asbestos? 3 A. There's been over the years, I'd say 4 that there's been some different changes of 5 thought with regard to that. Some authors 6 believe, concluded it was asbestos dust, others 7 concluded it may be dust containing asbestos. 8 Those will vary in the literature over time. 9 MR. SPEZIALI: He's asking about 10 Dreesen in the thirties now. Just to 11 expedite it, he wants to know about Dreesen 12 now in the thirties. 13 A. Could you ask the question again, 14 please? 15 Q. Sure. I'm trying to find out if the 16 five million particles per cubic foot of air you 17 said is asbestos dust, I'm asking you, in the 18 1930s, is it your opinion that meant hundred 19 percent asbestos dust, any percent asbestos 20 dust, what did it mean at that time frame? 21 A. With regard to the Dreesen study in 22 '38, they were studying textile mills, and, the 22 textile mill had extremely high concentrations 24 of asbestos in the dust and they used an 25 impingement method which didn't measure total Page 21 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 impingement method. 3 Q. When you used the phrase medical and 4 scientific literature a couple questions back, 5 is that different than industrial hygiene 6 literature, or is that different than the 7 industrial hygiene community, or was that 8 industrial hygiene community part of "medical 9 and scientific"? 10 A. Generally these are broad terms, but 11 I would say in general the medical and 12 scientific literature would have encompassed the 13 industrial hygiene literature. 14 Q. Did you need an epidemiological study 15 to make the determination that asbestos exposure 16 caused asbestosis historically? 17 A. I don't understand the question. 18 Q. Okay. When was it first known, the 19 very first date that you would say it was known 20 in die medical and scientific literature that 21 asbestos could cause any disease? 22 A. In the early 1900s there were some 23 case reports reported in the literature where 24 some physicians reported what they called cases 25 of, related to cases that we now call 6 (Pages 18 to 21) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 22 Page 24 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 asbestosis. 3 Q. So that's the first date by which it 4 was known in the medical and scientific 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 any other industry that asbestos exposure could 3 cause disease in the 1930s, or, are you saying 4 it was limited exclusively to the textile ; 5 community that asbestos could cause any kind of 5 industry? i 6 disease? 6 A. I'm here to talk in general about the 7 A. In which it was known, "it" what? 8 Q. The fact that asbestos could cause 9 disease. 10 A. Well, as I said, you asked before 11 when it was first known, and there were some 12 cases reported in the early 1900s from high 13 levels of exposure to asbestos that indicated 14 that asbestos, that asbestosis may occur. 15 Q. So that's when it was first known 16 that asbestos could cause disease, early 1900s? 17 A. Well, I think that there was some 7 United States Navy and asbestos, and, as far as ; 8 the other industries, that's not really in 9 general what I was prepared to discuss. i 10 Q. You have to understand something j 11 because I'm not trying to give you a hard time. 12 I'm coming in here in my opinion relatively ; 13 blind because I don't have a report from you | 14 saying what your opinions are. I have some very \ 15 broad statements included in Exhibit 1. So when 16 you say you may be testifying about the 17 historical aspects of industrial hygiene, I'm 18 case reports. 19 Q. That's what I'm trying -- 18 asking these questions. I'm not trying to give ; 19 you a hard time. I'm just trying to find out 20 A. I don't think in general it was 20 what you may testify. i 21 entirely known until certain studies were 21 MR. KRISTAL: Dave, is that accurate 22 performed. 22 in terms of the scope of the testimony? i 23 Q. Okay. When was the first such study 23 MR. SPEZIALI: For these four cases 24 that was performed in which it became entirely 24 she's going to talk about the United States 25 known that asbestos could cause disease? 25 Navy knowledge, I mean, as I understand Page 23 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 2 A. I don't think it was ever known with 2 3 total certainty that asbestos could absolutely 3 4 cause certain types of diseases. There were 4 5 certain studies that evolved over time which led 5 6 the medical and scientific community to certain 6 7 conclusions. 7 8 Q. And by the 1930s it was concluded by 8 9 the medical and scientific community that high 9 10 levels of asbestos exposure could cause 10 11 asbestosis? 11 12 A. By the late 1930s it was known that 12 13 high levels of asbestos in certain types of 13 14 industries such as in textile mills could cause 14 15 asbestosis. 15 16 Q. Any other industry? 16 17 A. That was the -- by the late 1930s, in 17 18 general, textile mills were studied. 18 19 Q. I'm asking you if --I'm sorry. Go 19 20 ahead. 20 21 A. And high levels of asbestos in 21 22 textile mills were thought to cause asbestosis, 22 23 and, again, I'm talking about levels in excess 23 24 of five million particles per cubic foot. 24 25 Q. And I'm asking you, was it known in 25 Page 25 ; Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct ; Plaintiffs' theory of the case. MR. KRISTAL: I just want to know -- MR. SPEZIALI: She will address that issue of the case by which had GE put some label on turbines the Navy would have rushed to arms and changed the way it would have addressed military issues in this case. She's going to address what the Navy knew or didn't know, and, obviously, as you and I both know, obviously the Navy's knowledge is part of the published historical scientific literature, so, clearly, that literature to the extent we say historic is going to come into play. MR. KRISTAL: I understand. But, generally, it's not going to be starting from, you know, it's going to be specific to the Navy? MR. SPEZIALI: Government knowledge, yes. MR. KRISTAL: That's fine. MR. SPEZIALI: I've got Tom Howard. He'll do the other problem. Tm not looking 7 (Pages 22 io 25) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 26 Page 28 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 to bring every witness in and repeat the 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 that high levels of asbestos exposure to cause 3 history of state-of-the-art literature. 4 Q. When was it first known by the United 3 asbestosis? 4 A. I'd have to refer to a document list. 5 States Navy, in your opinion, that asbestos 6 could cause asbestos disease of any kind? 7 A. I would say in 1922 the US Navy knew 5 Q. Okay. 6 MR. KRISTAL: Do you have that? 7 MR. SPEZIALI: Tim, do you have the 8 that high levels of asbestos could cause 9 asbestos-related disease, asbestosis. 10 Q. And what is the basis of that 11 opinion? 12 A. The basis of that opinion is some 13 studies in the literature that I reviewed over 14 time, and, also, that in 1922 the Navy sent some 15 people to the Harvard School of Public Health 16 for training. 17 Q. With respect to asbestos? 18 A. With respect to general occupational 19 medicine, and, it would have been further things 20 such as non-asbestos. 21 Q. Okay. Tell me the studies and 22 literature upon which you're basing your opinion 23 that in 1922 the US Navy knew high levels of 24 asbestos exposure to cause asbestosis? 25 A. Some of the studies include an article 8 9 10 111 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 [ 20 21 22 23 24 I 25 exhibit list? MR. KAPSHANDY: I may have it on my computer. We don't have a hard copy here. I may be able to find it. It was among the materials that she reviewed. We didn't bring hard copies. MR. SPEZIALI: It's on the CD. MR. KRISTAL: I'm not understanding. Is there a list that I can show the witness now from which she can tell me what she's relying on the 1922 article? MR. KAPSHANDY: I gave it to you before the deposition. MR. KRISTAL: That's Power Point. MR. KAPSHANDY: There's an extensive list. MR. SPEZIALI: Is it on the CD? MR. KAPSHANDY: No. That's just the Page 27 Page 29 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 by Brown. 3 Q. Anything else? 4 A. I've reviewed many materials over 5 time, even going up to the forties in the 6 Fisher. 7 Q. I'm only interested in what you're 8 basing your opinion on that the Navy knew in 9 1922. That's the sole scope of my question. 10 Other than the Brown article, is there anything 11 else you base your opinion on that the Navy knew 12 in 1922 that high levels of asbestos exposure 13 could cause asbestosis? 14 A. In several o f the documents that I 15 reviewed the history of industrial hygiene and 16 occupational medicine in the Navy had been 17 discussed, and, I would have to refer to a list 18 of documents, but that was the date that it's my 19 understanding that the Navy sent people to the 20 Harvard School of Public Health for training, 21 which would include their study of asbestos. 22 Q. Okay. What documents are you talking 23 about that had that history of industrial 24 hygiene in the Navy upon which you're relying 25 for your opinion that in 1922 the US Navy knew 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Alice Hamilton documents. 3 MR. KRISTAL: Have you given me this 4 morning which you think contains what Ms. 5 Drucker relied on? 6 MR. KAPSHANDY: Not this morning, 7 previously. 8 MR. SPEZIALI: Is it possible to pull 9 that up? 10 MR. KAPSHANDY: I'm looking for it. 11 MR. KRISTAL: Thank you. I'll move on 12 while you're looking for it. I didn't 13 understand what you were saying. 14 Q. When did you first come to an opinion 15 with respect to the United States Navy's 16 knowledge about the hazards of asbestos? 17 MR. SPEZIALI: Can I ask, you mean as 18 of 1922 or any time? 19 MR. KRISTAL: Any time of the US Navy j 20 and knowledge of asbestos. 21 A. I worked for the United States Navy 22 and I knew they had a long-standing program on 23 occupational exposure and relating to asbestos, 24 and, more recently, I had an opportunity to 25 review these articles and determined that in 8 (Pages 26 to 29) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 30 Page 32 f 1 Marjorie A. Drucker -Direct 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct ; 2 1922 they were aware of the hazards of asbestos. 2 the article. 3 Q. When was it, when you say "more 3 Q. Okay. So you can't do that without 4 recently," since September '03? 4 referring to the article? ; 5 A. I would say since September '03 I had 5 A. To answer your question as completely ; 6 recently reviewed those articles, although, I 6 as I can I feel that I should look at the ' 7 may have seen them in the past. I had worked 8 with the Navy. 9 Q. When was the first time you read the 10 Captain Brown article? 11 A. Over the course of my career I've 12 read hundreds of articles regarding asbestos, 13 and I may have seen the Brown article in the 14 past. I do recently recall having seen it within 15 the past several months since September. 7 article. 8 Q. How about answering it incompletely? i 9 A. I don't think I should do that. 10 Q. Okay. So you need the article to ; 11 answer the question? ; 12 A. I would like to refer to the article 13 to answer your question completely. 14 Q. Well, how about incompletely? I'll 15 take any portion of an answer without looking at ; 16 Q. Okay. What leads you to say in the 16 the article. 17 Brown article that Brown was talking about high 17 A. I think you want my best testimony 5 18 levels of asbestos exposure? 19 A. I don't think that's what I said 20 before. We were talking about 21 Q. If you didn't say that before, is it 22 your belief that in 1922 the US Navy knew that 23 asbestos exposure to cause asbestosis? 24 A. Yes, I said before that in 1922 the 25 US Navy would be aware that high levels of 18 so... ; 19 Q. I want anything, anything that you ; 20 can recall from the Brown article that talks 21 about high levels of asbestos exposure as 22 opposed to any other level of asbestos exposure? 23 A. To answer your question I would like 24 to look at the article. 25 Q. Fair enough. Brown was not talking j Page 31 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 asbestos exposure could cause asbestosis. 3 Q. And you said one of the bases of that 4 opinion was the Brown article? 5 A. Yes, I said that in general some of 6 the history of the Navy and the Navy's program 7 was included in the Brown article and that there 8 are other articles that I would have to refer to 9 a list for. 10 Q. And I'm asking you what in the Brown 11 article itself leads you to believe that the 12 Navy was talking about the high levels of 13 asbestos exposure as opposed to other levels of 14 asbestos exposure causing asbestosis? 15 A. I would have to look at the article. 16 Q. Do you have the article? 17 A. No, not with me. 18 Q. We'll have to continue this on some 19 other day, I imagine. 20 As you sit here today, you are unable 21 to tell me what it is in the Brown article that 22 leads you to believe that Brown was talking 23 about high levels of asbestos exposure causing 24 asbestosis? 25 A. To answer your question I refer to Page 33 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 about textiles; is that fair to say? 3 A. Again, I would like to look at the 4 article. 5 Q. Okay. Was Brown talking about the ; 6 textile industry? 7 A. I would like to look at the article. 8 Q. Do you have any idea what asbestos 9 products Brown was talking about that could lead ; 10 to asbestosis? 11 A. To answer your question I would refer 12 to the article. 13 Q. Okay. Are there any other studies at 14 the time, meaning 1922, or any other articles at 15 the time, meaning 1922, upon which you're basing 16 your opinion about the US Navy's knowledge in 17 1922, as opposed to some book chapter or article 18 or review by the Navy written years later 19 looking back? Do you understand what I'm asking? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Okay. I'm trying to find out if 22 there's anything contemporaneous with the 1920s 23 other than the Brown article on which you're 24 relying for your opinion that the Navy knew in 25 1922 that asbestos could cause asbestosis? 9 (Pages 30 to 33) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 34 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 A. Yes, as I said before, there were 3 several articles, and, for that, I'd have to 4 look at the master list and cite them for you. 5 Q. Okay. So and I'm not talking about 6 articles that are looking back, I'm talking 7 about in the 1920s. Do you understand that? 8 A. I do. 9 Q. Okay. Do you know the authors of 10 these other articles from the 1920s that you're 11 basing your opinion in part on that the US Navy 12 knew in the 1920s that asbestos exposure could 13 cause asbestosis? 14 A. I've seen some correspondence by 15 Philip Drinker from back in the 1920s, 1930s 16 with respect to some work that he had done with 17 the Navy, but, in general, I'd like to say that 18 I would prefer to look at the list and then cite 19 specifics for you. 20 Q. Who generated this list that you're 21 talking about, whose list is it? 22 A. There have been documents that I 23 reviewed over time with regard to this project, 24 and, the generation of the list is actually from 25 many sources, including myself. There were Page 36 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 articles for background in context of which I 3 had reviewed over the course of my career, and, 4 many of which I actually had in my own library. 5 Q. What did you do to research the issue 6 of when the Navy first knew about the hazards of 7 asbestos? Did you go on-line? Did you go to the 8 library? Did you go to some archive somewhere? 9 Did you ask somebody to do any of those things? 10 Did you get articles from the lawyers? I want to 11 know what you did. 12 A. Your question again, please? 13 Q. When you were looking at the Navy's 14 historical knowledge about the hazards of 15 asbestos, how did you go about doing that? 16 A. Throughout the course of my career, 17 throughout my career and training, I have had 18 years of training with regards to asbestos, and, I 19 a lot of the information that I had over the 20 years I had seen from the Navy. When I was a 21 student at the Harvard School of Public Health, 22 one of the authors of the Fisher Drinker article 23 was one of my professors. I worked for the Navy 24 and I'm familiar with their long history of 25 health and safety, and, certainly with regard to Page 35 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 articles that were provided to me for a 3 background in context articles that I 4 contributed to this compendium and materials 5 from a variety of other sources. 6 Q. So who made the list? I'm not asking 7 you who contributed to the articles that were 8 compiled and made into a list. I m asking you 9 who made the list? Did you? Let's start there. 10 A. Well, I didn't physically type the j 11 list. I contributed to the articles in the list, 12 and, the list, as I understand it, was prepared 13 by the Sidley law firm, meaning that it was 14 typed and prepared by them. 15 Q. Okay. And when did you first 16 contribute to the universe of articles that went 17 into this list that Sidley typed up into a list? 118 A. I'd say in general after September of 19 '03 when I began the project. 20 Q. Did the Sidley firm or any other 21 attorneys give you a copy o f the Brown article? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q- Okay. Did they give you other 124 articles? . 25 A. Yes. The Sidley firm provided various Page 37 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 their efforts on asbestos. So when first it may 3 be difficult to say. It probably goes back to my 4 training at Harvard in the late sixties. 5 Q. After you were first, after you first 6 agreed to take on this historical Navy knowledge 7 review, what did you do? 8 A. Could you be a little more specific? 9 Q. Sure. After September '03, what have 10 you done to inform yourself on these issues 11 regarding the Navy's knowledge? 12 A. Well, since September '03 --1 should 13 backtrack a little. As I said from the 14 beginning, from the late sixties, I've been 15 aware of these issues. 16 Q. I'm not asking you about the late 17 sixties or your knowledge of the issues 18 pre-September '03.1just want to know what 19 you've done since September '03. And if you re 20 saying you did nothing other than what you 21 previously knew, that's fine too? 22 A. Since September '03,1had the 23 opportunity to review various articles and 24 studies, and those would have included those 25 relating to the Navy. 10 (Pages 34 to 37) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 38 Page 40 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. Where did you get the articles and 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 you tell me the title? Can you tell me anything } 3 studies that related to the Navy since September 4 '03? 3 about the articles in terms of where they were 4 published, when they were published, who 5 A. Some of the articles that I reviewed 5 published them? i 6 were provided to me by the Sidley firm and some 6 A. I recall one of the articles stating J 7 of the, as I said, I provided articles, as well. 7 that. It was a retrospective of the rich history 8 I also have sought some correspondence at 8 of industrial hygiene occupational medicine in ; 9 Harvard Medical Library when I was there 9 the Navy. It was a retrospective done by the 10 reviewing some documents. So it's a combination 10 Navy. And to give you the exact title, I would 11 of places. 11 have to refer to the list for you. 12 Q. Okay. The basis of your opinion that 12 Q. Anything else? * 13 the Navy sent people to the Harvard School of 13 A. As I said, there were some other 14 Public Health regarding industrial hygiene in 14 articles, but I'd have to refer to the list. 15 1922, where did that come from? 15 Q. Okay. What Drinker correspondence ; 16 A. I had seen documents relating to that 16 from the 1920s have you seen regarding the 17 people from the Navy were sent to the Harvard 18 School of Public Health, and, as I recall, I 19 talked to a former corporate industrial 20 hygienist from GE who had also been in the Navy 21 who related to me certain, that officers and 22 people from the Navy had gone to the Harvard 23 School of Public Health. 24 Q. I'm talking specifically about 25 starting in 1922, and you're saying somebody 17 Navy's knowledge of the high risk of asbestos? 18 Are they in this GE stuff? And by that for the 19 record there are hard copies of some 20 correspondence from the 1920s regarding Alice 21 Hamilton and also there's a CD Rom with a number 22 of different items on it. I'm assuming most of 23 them are correspondence. Is it in that group, or 24 are you talking about some other correspondence? 25 A. I'd have to check. I'd have to check. Page 39 Page 41 ` 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 who's a former GE industrial hygienist told you 3 that? 2 Q. What list? 3 A. Could you ask the question again, 4 A. Told me that, what? 4 please? 5 Q. You said earlier that in 1922 the US 5 Q. Yes. You mentioned as the basis for 6 Navy knew about high levels of asbestos exposure 6 your knowledge Drinker correspondence in the 7 causing asbestosis, and you said the basis of 7 1920s and thirties about the Navy's knowledge of 8 your opinion were studies and literature and 8 the hazards of asbestos, did you not? 9 your knowledge that the Navy had sent industrial 9 A. Yes. ; 10 hygienists to the Harvard School of Public 10 Q. And I'm asking you where are those, 11 Health, right? 11 or can you point me to where I might find those? 12 A. Yes. 12 A. You can find some of the 13 Q. Okay. I'm trying to find out the 13 correspondence in this, some of the Alice 14 basis for your belief that in 1922 the US Navy 14 Hamilton documents going back, but, again, I'd 15 sent people to the Harvard School of Public 15 have to double check that. I'd have to look at 16 Health to study industrial hygiene, that's what 16 the listing to give you an answer. 17 I'm trying to find out. What are you basing that 17 Q. And who was Drinker with respect to 18 on? 18 the Navy in the 1920s and thirties? 19 A. I had seen that written in at least 19 A. Phil Drinker who was also on the 20 one or more articles, and, I would have to refer 20 faculty of Harvard served as a consultant in the 21 to a list of that. 21 United States Navy for a period of time and also 22 Q. So in some article you've seen it 22 was a participant in some studies. 23 said and that's the basis of your opinion? 23 Q. And what period of time was Philip 24 A. Article or articles, yes. 24 Drinker a consultant for the US Navy? 25 Q. Okay. Well, how many were there? Can 25 A. I'd say in general Phil Drinker was a 11 (Pages 38 to 41) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 . Page 42 Page 44 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 consultant to the Navy in the thirties and 2 MR. SPEZIALI: I'm asking about the 3 forties. 3 Betts exhibits. 4 Q. Not the twenties? 4 MR. KRISTAL: Please, guys. Did 5 A. I'd have to check that. 5 anybody mention the word Dublin? 6 Q. Well, are you basing your opinion 6 MR. SPEZIALI: I just want the Betts 7 that the Navy knew in 1922 that asbestos could 8 cause asbestosis on Drinker correspondence in 7 exhibits. 8 MR. KRISTAL: Please don't prompt the 9 the 1920s? 10 A. What I said before was that I was 11 basing that the Navy knew in 1922 about asbestos 12 on several articles, and I would have to refer 13 to the list to give you those. 14 Q. Not Drinker correspondence? 15 A. When you're using the term 16 "correspondence" I don't know if you're 17 referring to letters. I'd say that I would have 18 to refer. 19 Q. Let me make it clear before you 20 answer. By "articles," I'm talking about 21 something that's been published somewhere. 22 Correspondence unless they're published 23 contemporaneously is not an article or a 24 published document. 25 You mentioned Drinker correspondence 9 witness. Okay? 10 Q. I'm talking about Drinker 11 correspondence from the 1920s. Is there anything 12 that you're aware of that Drinker wrote in 13 correspondence that relates to the Navy's 14 knowledge of the hazards of asbestos? 15 A. I'd have to refer to the document. 16 Q. Okay. The Brown article with respect 17 to asbestosis was talking about insulation, was 18 it not? 19 MR. SPEZIALI: I'm going to object. We 20 have the Brown article here. She's asked to 21 refer to the Brown article. So if you want 22 to ask more questions about it, let's refer I23 to the article. 24 Q. Let me ask the question. Can you 25 answer that question as to whether Brown was Page1 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 from the 1920s and 1930s earlier, and I'm asking 3 you about the 1920s Drinker correspondence, is 4 there such a thing or more than one thing or not 5 with respect to the Navy's knowledge of the 6 hazards of asbestos? 7 A. I would have to refer to the articles 8 to give you more specific information. 9 Q. I'm not talking about any articles. 10 MR. SPEZLALI: Let me ask this. 11 MR. KRISTAL: I don't want you to ask 12 anything. 13 MR. SPEZIALI: Tim, don't we have the 14 exhibits here? 15 MR. KAPSHANDY: No, because they were 16 provided to him last week. 17 MR. SPEZIALI: I thought we had them 18 available in CD? 19 MR. KAPSHANDY: I'm about to put them 20 on a disc for him. 21 MR. SPEZIALI: Do we have them 22 available that the witness can look at 23 them? 24 MR. KAPSHANDY: The Brown and the 25 Dublin articles he's talking about. Page 45 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 talking about insulation that contained asbestos 3 without looking at the Brown article? 4 A. I would like to refer to the article 5 to answer your question. 6 Q. Meaning you can't do it without it? 7 A. Meaning that I would feel more 8 comfortable in answering your question fully 9 after I look at the article. ; 10 Q. So without looking at the article you 11 are unwilling to say whether Brown was talking : 12 about asbestos-containing insulation or not; is 13 that correct? 14 A. I would like to refer to the article 15 to answer your question. 16 Q. Okay. Was the Brown article published 17 anywhere? 18 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. We have the 19 article. 20 Q. Do you need to look at the article to 21 answer that question? !22 A. I would like to look at the article. 23 MR. KRISTAL: Do you have the 24 article? 25 MR. KAPSHANDY: I have it up, Counsel. ................. 12 (Pages 42 to 45) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 46 Page 48 ; 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 If it's acceptable, she's asked to look at 3 it but you don't seem to want her to. 4 MR. KRISTAL: Just for the record we 5 have a laptop that Ms. Drucker is 6 reviewing. I'm assuming, because I can't 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Foundation, any industry? 3 A. No. 4 Q. So you can see from reading the 5 article that it was presented at a conference, 6 this Fifth Annual Conference in 1922 [sic]; is 7 see it, that it is the Brown article. 7 that right? : 8 MR. KAPSHANDY: You're welcome to look 8 A. I'm scrolling up right now. Fifth 9 at it. 10 MR. KRISTAL: I trust you that it's 9 Annual Meeting 1940. , 10 Q. 1940. Okay. What's that got to do 11 the Brown article. 12 (Whereupon, the witness peruses 13 information on the computer.) 14 A. Thank you. 15 Q. Was the Brown article published 16 anywhere? Just for the record you read finished 17 reading the Brown article? 11 with 1922? i 12 A. Well, as I recall, before you asked 13 me about in general what kinds of things was I 14 familiar with about the Navy's program in ; 15 industrial hygiene occupational medicine, and I 16 had mentioned this as one article that I recall. 17 Q. Okay. Well, the record will speak for ; 18 A. I looked at the Brown article, and 19 the Brown article it appears, I don't know if it 20 was published. According to this, it was 21 presented at the Fifth Annual Meeting of the Air 22 Hygiene Foundation of America in Pittsburgh 23 November 12th, 1940. 24 Q. Do you know what that foundation is, 25 Air Hygiene Foundation of America? 18 itself. 19 Are you or are you not relying on 20 this Brown speech for your belief that in 1922 s 21 the US Navy knew about the hazards of asbestos? 22 A. From the information provided in the 23 article it's an indication of rich history of 24 occupation medicine industrial hygiene in the 25 Navy. Whether it specifically addresses the 1922 1 Page 47 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 A. In terms of what? 3 Q. In terms of anything. 4 A. As I recall, when I was a student at 5 Harvard, I had heard of the Air Hygiene 6 Foundation. 7 Q. Okay. Anything else? I asked you what 8 the Air Hygiene Foundation is, if you know, and 9 you said you heard of it when you were a 10 student. That's not my question. Do you know 11 what the Air Hygiene Foundation is? 12 A. As I said, as a student at Harvard, I 13 was familiar that there was an Air Hygiene 14 Foundation. 15 Q. Okay. From your familiarity when you 16 were at Harvard with the Air Hygiene Foundation, 17 what was the Air Hygiene Foundation? 18 A. My familiarity from Harvard is that 19 there were people who did research and gave 20 papers, and that's the context in which I had 21 heard of the Air Hygiene Foundation. 22 O. Okav. Do you know when it was formed? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Do you know whether or not members of 25 industry were part of the Air Hygiene Page 49 : 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 data Td have to read it in its entirety, but 3 there are other articles I would have to refer 4 to to give you that date of 1922. i 5 Q. Okay. Why don't you read the Brown : 6 article? Have you ever read the Brown article in 7 its entirety? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. If you need to read the article 10 in its entirety to tell me if it relates to 1922 11 or not, go ahead. 12 (Whereupon, the witness peruses the 13 computer.) 14 Q. Have you had a chance to read the 15 whole Brown article? 16 A. I skimmed it, yes. 17 Q. I don't want you to skim it. If you 18 need to read the whole article take your time 19 and read the whole article. Do you think you 20 read it sufficiently to answer questions? 21 A. Yes, I'll try. 22 Q. Tell me what in it relates to 1922 23 and the US Navy knowledge in 1922? 24 A. In looking at the article I don't see 25 the date 1922 mentioned. I believe I mentioned 13 (Pages 46 to 49) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 _ Page 50 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 before that it was part of materials that I saw 3 that related to the rich and long-standing 4 program that the Navy has as far as occupational 5 medicine and industrial hygiene. 6 Q. So with respect to your opinion that 7 the US Navy knew in 1922 that high levels of 8 asbestos exposure could cause asbestosis, the Brown 9 article doesn't speak to that date, does it? 10 A. In my reading of it I wouldn't 11 exclude that. I don't see the date 1922 12 specifically mentioned, but, obviously, in 1940 13 the Navy has had a long-standing program, and, 14 as I said, I saw another article with 1922 15 mentioned so I could mesh this with that. It's 16 not inconsistent. 17 Q. How about 1912, would that article 18 equally apply to 1912? 19 MR. SPEZIALI: 1912 what? | 20 MR. KRISTAL: Navy knowledge of the 21 knowledge of asbestos in 1912. 22 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. She never 23 said that. i 24 Q. You can answer the question. 25 A. You asked me before from what date Page 52 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 hygiene in general, yes, including asbestos. 3 Q. Tell me what in the article leads you 4 to say that about asbestos long-standing rich 5 history? 6 A. There are references to asbestos in 7 this article itself and the programs that they 8 developed. So in my reading as an industrial 9 hygienist I look at an article like this and I'm 10 aware that it takes time to develop programs of 11 apparently the sophistication that they have 12 expressed in this article in 1940. So, to me, 13 that lends credence that it's been a program of 14 some standing and it appears rich in knowledge. 15 Q. Tell me specifically from the article 16 what you're talking about? 17 A. I'd say in general the article 18 addresses many occupational hazards. So it 19 appears that the Navy is aware in many realms of 20 various occupational hazards. They do mention 21 asbestosis. 22 Q. Right. And what leads you to believe 23 the Navy had a long-standing knowledge of that 24 from the Brown article? 1 25 A. Well, there are some things mentioned Page 51 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 was the Navy aware? I said 1922. And that's what 3 I'm relating the knowledge that it's apparently 4 gathered by this time in 1940.1never mentioned 5 the date 1912. 6 Q. Right. And my point is, what does a 7 1940 article, that particular 1940 article got 8 to do with your specific opinion that the Navy 9 knew in 1922 about the hazards asbestos as 10 opposed to 1912 or 1932? 11 A. As I mentioned before, there are 12 other articles that did mention, article or 13 articles that did mention 1922, and I see this 14 as meshing consistently with that that obviously 15 by 1940 they have a long-standing and very, very 16 rich knowledge of the program, including that 117 related to asbestos. 18 Q. Tell me what you're relating to the 19 long-standing rich knowledge of asbestos about 120 from the Brown article? 21 A. Could you repeat that, please? 22 Q. Sure. You said that the article tells 23 you that the Navy had a long-standing rich 24 program about the knowledge of asbestos, right? I 25 A. And occupation medicine industrial Page 53 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 in the article itself that indicates that 3 surveys were made, x-rays were taken, and, as an 4 industrial hygienist, I know that these kind of 5 programs, the awareness, investigation of 6 hazards, medical surveillance such as they're 7 referring to here in this article take time to 8 institute. So in my reading of this I see that 9 there was a lot of knowledge already accumulated 10 by 1940 when this paper was presented and that 11 they certainly appear to be fairly well aware of 12 asbestos hazards as they relate to the Navy at 13 that point in time. 14 Q. I'm talking about 1922. What leads 15 you to believe that there was a long-standing 16 program that went back to 1922 from the surveys 17 that were taken, the x-ray program from the 18 medical surveillance that's mentioned in the 119 Brown article? 20 A. That's not what you asked me before. 21 What you asked me was how, well, what I answered 22 was that it's apparent to me that by 1940 they 23 had a rich program with a lot of aspects that 24 were sophisticated for the time. I said that 25 other articles, article or articles had brought 14 (Pages 50 to 53) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 54 Page 56 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 to my attention the date 1922. 2 it could be faxed. I'm trying to take a 3 Q. Is there anything in Brown from which 3 deposition here. I'm not blaming anybody 4 you can pin a date to 1922 in terms o f the 4 here and not blaming Ms. Drucker. If she 5 Navy's knowledge of the hazards of asbestos as 5 needs something to look at to answer a 6 opposed to 1932 or 1912? 7 A. My reading of it right now on screen, 6 question, it seems logical we ought to have 7 what she needs. Can somebody request the 8 I don't see anything specifically relating to 9 1922.1don't exclude it. I see it as meshing 8 list be faxed? 9 MR. SPEZIALI: Obviously we're going 10 with other articles that describe the Navy's 0 to be bogged down with this list. Let me 11 industrial hygiene and medical program going 1 see if we can get the list. If we can't, we 12 back in time to 1922. 13 Q. Can you give me the name of any 2 should look for another date. Most of the 3 answers are going to center around this 14 article or anything that you're relying on for 15 your opinion that the Navy knew that asbestos 4 list. Let me make a quick call. 15 MR. KRISTAL: Can we move while you do 16 caused asbestosis in 1922? 17 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. Asked and 16 that? Do you want me to wait? 17 MR. SPEZIALI: Ask some things around 118 answered. We have the list. If you want to 18 it and we'll break. 19 refer to the list, you can refer to the 19 Q. Sticking with Brown, you don't know 120 list. 21 MR. KRISTAL: Of course. I'm not 20 whether it was published or not other than it 21 was given as a speech at some conference? 22 ruling that out. You said we have the list. 22 A. I don't know. 23 Well, get the list out. I'm trying to move 24 this along. It's not a memory test. 25 MR. SPEZIALI: Do we have the list? 23 Q. Okay. Brown refers to 24 asbestos-containing insulation, correct? 25 A. It's listed in there and I just Page 55 Page 57 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 MR. KAPSHANDY: Many of them are on 2 looked at it, and I would read you the list and 3 the Betts list, as well as the exhibit 4 list, so we can refer to the GE exhibit 5 list and I can give you an exhibit number. 6 MR. KRISTAL: What I'd like to do is 7 refer to whatever list Ms. Drucker is 8 talking about because I don't know what 9 list you're talking about. 10 MR. KAPSHANDY: I told you before on 11 the record it is the list of Betts' 12 exhibits that are attached, many of which 13 are on the exhibit list, both of which have 14 been given to you. 15 MR. KRISTAL: Do we have a copy of the 16 Betts list so Ms. Drucker can look at it to 17 answer the questions? That's all I'm 18 asking. 19 MR. KAPSHANDY: No, not here. j 20 MR. KRISTAL: Why don't we agree to do I 21 this some other date? This is absurd. We'll 22 have to continue this. [ 23 MR. KAPSHANDY: We can have them sent 24 over from Newark. 125 MR. KRISTAL: That would be great if 3 not refer to my memory. So I could read it to 4 you if we can go back to it. 5 MR. KAPSHANDY: Is that it? 6 THE WITNESS: It's on Page 11 and 12. 7 Q. Are you talking about the chart? 8 A. And there's a descriptor, too. 9 (Whereupon, the witness peruses the 10 computer.) 11 A. On Page 11 of this article under 12 "Dust Diseases" asbestosis is listed as "For 13 makers of pipe insulating covers." And on Page 14 12 it says, "Asbestosis, this is a potential 15 occupational disease hazard due to inhalation of 16 asbestos dust among workers engaged in the 17 manufacture of asbestos insulating covers for 18 flanges, valves and high temperature steam 19 turbines." 20 Q. So what Brown is talking about, at 21 least your understanding of it, is that people 22 who were engaged in using asbestos-containing 23 insulation were at risk of asbestosis? 24 A. The terms he uses are "asbestos 25 insulating covers for flanges, valves and high 15 (Pages 54 to 57) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 temperature steam turbines." 3 Q. Okay. So people who were using those 4 materials were at risk for asbestosis, and that 5 was known in the 19, at least 1940? 6 A. Yes, that people exposed to high 7 levels above five million particles per cubic 8 foot would have the potential for asbestosis. 9 Q. Okay. Where are you getting the high 10 levels above five million particles per cubic 11 foot from? From the Brown article? 12 A. I was using that from general 13 background information. 14 Q. Does Brown mention high levels of 15 asbestos exposure? 16 A. From what I just read, I mean, I 17 literally read that's what it stated. If I 18 mention levels, I would have to look back in the 19 article for you. 20 Q. Okay. Why don't you do that? 21 (Whereupon, the witness peruses the 22 computer.) 23 A. Thank you. 24 Q. Have you read the article? 25 A. I looked at article sections. Page 60 | 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 controlling high exposures to prevent problems. 3 Q. Tell me specifically what you're 4 saying ~ strike that. 5 Are you saying because he's 6 recommending control measures by definition he's 7 talking about high levels of exposure? Is that 8 what you're saying? 9 A. You're using the term "high." It's a 10 general, when you're using the term "high," 11 that's a very general statement. I'm saying 12 looking at th is-13 Q. You used the term "high." I didn't 14 use the term high. You said you're getting from 15 the Brown article that high levels of asbestos 16 exposure to cause asbestosis and that was known 17 by the Navy. And I'm asking what in the Brown 18 article leads you to say he said high levels of 19 asbestos exposure. Be very specific. Tell me 20 what he's saying that you're interpreting to 21 mean he's talking about high levels of asbestos 22 exposure? 23 A. As a trained industrial hygienist 24 looking back at an article historic over time, j 25 throughout this article it appears he's Page 59 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. Okay. Does Brown mention high levels 3 of asbestos? 4 A. Well, in looking at the article I 5 didn't see the term literally high levels, but, 6 as an industrial hygienist reading this article 7 and understanding what he's saying it is 8 apparent to me that he's indicating that, yes, 9 at higher levels we're going to get certain 10 types of diseases, among which is listed 11 asbestosis. 12 Q. Tell me what language you're looking 13 at for your interpretation that he's talking 14 about high levels? 15 A. Well, as I said, as an industrial 116 hygienist who's trained to look at articles from 17 the past, I'm looking at this and it seems to me 18 that what he's describing is the Navy's very 119 sophisticated program as far as occupational 20 medicine and industrial hygiene, and, in the 21 section on asbestosis he indicates doing things 22 that are in good practice to protect people, 23 medical evaluations, he mentions exhaust 24 ventilation, respirators. So it seems as a 25 trained person reading this he is looking at Page 61 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 describing the Navy program which is well aware 3 of hazards and highly sophisticated, and, to me 4 in the way he describes certain diseases and 5 control measures he's indicated to me a 6 knowledge that it's important to control certain 7 types of exposures. 8 Q. Okay. Tell me specifically what 9 language he uses that leads you to believe he's 10 talking about high levels of asbestos? 11 (Whereupon, the witness peruses the 12 computer.) 13 A. I think it's inherent in his 14 description of certain types of suppression 15 methods that they knew about then. 16 Q. Okay. Tell me specifically what it is 17 you're looking at and quote me the language, 18 and, then I'm going to ask you why you believe 19 he's talking about high levels. 120 A. I can cite you one paragraph. There 21 may be others. 22 Q. Well, I want you to cite as many 23 paragraphs or sentences as you need to do. 24 A. I could start out with one. I 25 Q. Okay. We'll start with one and then 16 (Pages 58 to 61) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 62 Page 64 1 Marjorie A. Drucker -Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct i 2 we'll move on to others. Start with one. 2 nothing to do with the question because it's not 3 A. The paragraph reads, "Medical control 3 advancing the ball. 4 consists of taking an x-ray of the lungs 4 A. I have not been asked to address ; 5 annually. The material is moistened and 5 that. What I've been asked to address is the ; 6 localized. Exhaust ventilation is installed over 6 Navy. : 7 the work area, a respirator is worn during the 7 Q. And, therefore, you can't answer the 5 8 dustiest aspect of the process." And this is 8 question as to whether or not the industrial ; 9 under B "Asbestosis, The Potential Occupation 9 hygiene community in general knew that by 1940 : 10 Disease Hazard Due to Inhalation of Asbestos 10 moistening asbestos-containing materials, using i 11 Dust." 12 Q. Okay. So the fact that there is a 11 localized exhaust and respirators were some 12 methods to reduce exposure to asbestos? 13 recommendation that x-rays be taken leads you to 13 A. Certainly the industrial hygiene 14 believe he's talking about high levels of 14 medical community in the Navy knew by 1940 that j 15 asbestos exposure? 15 they needed to do these types of methods to 16 A. You take what he's saying in its 16 lower dust. ; 17 entirety, it's obvious to me as a trained 17 Q. And you don't know one way or the 18 industrial hygienist that what he's saying is 18 other whether or not any other industrial 19 that there are certain types of controls that 19 hygiene community knew that, you just don't know ; 20 need to be instituted and worked against type of 20 as you sit here? f 21 material in which he's listing the ones they 21 A. I haven't been asked to address that 22 used in the Navy at that point in time in 1922. 22 today, but it's - : 23 So they're well aware in 1922 that it's 23 Q. Saying you haven't been asked to ; 24 important to do medical examinations, to use 24 address that doesn't say to me you know or not. 25 exhaust ventilation and respirators. And as an 25 So whether you've been asked to address it or ; Page 63 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 industrial hygienist, that indicates to me that 3 they're aware that they need to control these 4 exposures, they need to make them as low as 5 possible. 6 Q. And that certainly was a well 7 accepted body of knowledge in the industrial 8 hygiene community with respect to asbestos had 9 lower exposures by 1940, right? 10 A. That is referring to what? 11 Q. Moistening the material, using 12 localized exhaust ventilation, using 13 respirators. 14 A. We're confining our talk this morning 15 to the Navy. 16 Q. My question has nothing to do with 17 the Navy. If you can't answer that question, 18 then let me just know you can't answer that 19 question. 20 A. Well, I'm prepared this morning to 21 talk about the Navy. 22 Q. Which means you're not prepared to 23 answer that other question. If you're not, 24 you're not and we will move on to the next 25 question, but I don't need an answer that has Page 65 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 not, I'm asking whether you know the answer to ; 3 that question? i 4 A. I haven't been asked to address it i 5 and I haven't formulated an opinion on that. | 6 Q. Okay. The industrial hygienists that 7 were in the Navy it's your belief were being 8 trained at the Harvard School of Public Health? 9 A. It's my understanding that many of 10 the industrial hygiene officers and health and 11 safety professionals did go to the Harvard 12 School of Public Health. 13 Q. Starting in 1922? 14 A. Yes, starting in 1922. 15 Q. Okay. And, in part, is it your 16 opinion that that's where they learned about the 17 hazards of asbestos? 18 A. Could you repeat that, please? 19 Q. Sure. Is it your opinion that 20 industrial hygienists who were in the Navy that 21 went to the Harvard School of Public Health 22 starting in 1922 learned about the hazards of 23 asbestos through their education at the Harvard 24 School of Public Health in part? 25 A. I certainly think that in 1922 the 17 (Pages 62 to 65) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 66 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 people, the Navy people attending the Harvard 3 School of Public Health, yes, would have learned 4 that high levels of dust, including high levels 5 of asbestos dust causing asbestosis. 6 Q. And those people would have also 7 learned in part how to control the dust levels 8 such as moistening the material, using localized 9 exhaust or using respirators, right? 10 A. I'd have to refer to some documents 11 to answer that. 12 Q. Such as what? 13 A. Such as some of the documents we were 14 talking about before about the Navy's program 15 going back over time. 16 Q. Okay. The information that was being 17 imparted to the Navy industrial hygienists 18 beginning in 1922 about high levels of asbestos 19 exposure causing asbestosis was not limited to 20 those folks that were in the Navy, was it, at 21 the Harvard School of Public Health? 22 A. Would you mind repeating that, 23 please? 24 Q. Sure. Was it your understanding that 25 the Navy industrial hygienists that were in the Page 68 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. Okay. My question is, can you think 3 of any reason why the Harvard School of Public 4 Health would be teaching people who weren't in 5 the Navy differently than they were teaching 6 people who were in the Navy about the hazards of 7 asbestos beginning in 1922? 8 A. I don't know if other people did 9 attend in program starting in 1922, but I can't 10 think of a reason why they would not impart the 11 same information to people. 12 Q. Okay. Anything in Brown that talks 13 about five million particles per cubic foot of 14 air? 15 A. As 1was looking the article over 116 just now I did not see five million particles 17 per cubic foot mentioned. 18 Q. Have you read the minimum 19 requirements for contract shipyards document? 120 A. Yes. 21 Q. What year was that, not that you read 22 it, what year was that document published? 23 A. 1943. 24 Q. Is that a secret document of any 25 kind? Page 67 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Harvard School of Public Health starting in 1922 3 were taught in exclusive classes and nobody else 4 could attend those classes? 5 A. I don't know. 6 Q. Is it your belief that only those 7 folks who were in the Navy at the Harvard School 8 of Public Health beginning in 1922 were given 9 information about the hazards of asbestos? 10 A. I was asked to address the Navy 11 here. I don't know about others. 12 Q. Well, do you think the Harvard School 13 of Public Health would not impart information 14 about the dangers of asbestos to people who were 15 not in the Navy starting in 1922? 16 A. No. i 17 Q. So anybody starting in 1922 who was 18 attending the Harvard School of Public Health 19 would have gotten the same information about the 120 hazards of asbestos as the people in the Navy, 21 right? Is there any reason you can think of why 22 they would be given different information? 1 23 A. I don't know who else attended. It's 24 my understanding that people from the Navy did 25 attend starting in 1922. Page 69 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 A. Not that I'm aware of. 3 Q. Do you know what led up to the 4 promulgation of that document? 5 A. It's my understanding there was some 6 studies conducted that led up to the formulation 7 of the minimum requirements. 8 Q. What do you mean by "studies 9 conducted"? 10 A. Studies of Naval locations. To be 11 more specific I would like to refer to the 12 document to answer your question. 13 Q. Okay. But it's your understanding 14 that there was some studies conducted that led 15 up to the issuing of the minimum requirements 16 for contract shipyard documents? 17 A. As I recall. I prefer to look at the 18 document to be more specific. 19 Q. Look at what document? [20 A. The minimum requirements document. 21 Q. Do you know who wrote the minimum 22 requirements document? 23 MR. SPEZIALI: Tim, do we have the 24 document here? I 25 MR. KAPSHANDY: Yes. 18 (Pages 66 to 69) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 70 Page 72 ;J 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct j 2 Q. Can you answer any question about the 2 game. We're talking about 100 years of ; 3 minimum requirement document without looking at 3 industrial hygiene history and it's unfair. 4 the minimum requirement document? 4 At this point, she doesn't know. She hasn't ; 5 A. I would like to refer to the 5 memorized the article. 5 6 document. 6 Q. Is that true, you don't know whether J 7 Q. Okay. So if I asked you who wrote it, 7 or not the minimum requirement document relates 8 you can't tell me that without looking at the 8 to asbestos-containing insulation products? 9 document? 9 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. She's asked i 10 A. I would like to look at the document 10 to see the document. Let her see the 11 to answer the question. 11 document. 12 Q. Do you know who the document was 12 A. I'd like to look at the document. 13 addressed to? 13 Q. And so you don't know one way or the 14 A. It was for contract Naval shipyards. 14 other as you sit here without looking at the 15 Q. What does that mean? 15 document, and we'll let you look at the document 16 A. It means shipyards that make or 16 in a minute, whether or not it refers to 17 modify ships that are non-Naval shipyards. 17 asbestos-containing insulating products? ; 18 Q. Okay. 18 A. As I recall, it does, but I'd like to 19 A. Non-US Navy shipyards. They're 19 look at the document. < 20 contract shipyards. 20 Q. Okay. Why don't you look at the ! 21 Q. The information in minimum 21 document? 22 requirements was not a secret, was it? It was 22 A. Thank you. 23 given to contract shipyards throughout the 23 (Whereupon, the witness peruses the 24 country? 24 computer.) 25 A. I don't know what you call a 25 MR. KRISTAL: Why don't we take a Page 71 Page 73 . 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 "secret." 2 break? 3 Q. Well, do you have an opinion that 4 people outside of the Navy had knowledge of the 3 Q. Ms. Drucker, you don't have to work 4 through the break. Take a few minutes and come 5 minimum requirements document in 1943? 5 back. 6 A. I haven't been asked to look into 6 (Whereupon, there is a recess in the 7 that. I don't know. 7 proceedings.) 8 Q. So you don't have an opinion one way 8 Q. The Brown article notes an increased 9 or the other? 9 risk of asbestosis in people using 10 A. I wasn't asked to look into that, so 10 asbestos-containing insulating covers; is that 11 I'm not prepared to answer that today. 12 Q. Was the minimum requirements document 11 correct? 12 A. If it could be read back? I read it 13 given to anybody? 13 literally out of the article. I don't have it in 14 A. I'd like to look at the document 15 itself. 16 Q. So you cannot answer that question 17 without looking at the document? 14 front of me. 15 Q. Whatever the term was, I think it was 16 insulating covers, was the increased risk based 17 on any epidemiological study that you're aware 18 MR. KAPSHANDY: I have it up here on 19 the screen. Can she look at it or not? 20 MR. KRISTAL: Not yet. 18 of? 19 A. I'd have to go back and look at it 20 again. I don't know. I'd have to look at the 21 A. Could you repeat that, please? 22 Q. Did the minimum requirements document 23 speak about asbestos insulating products? 24 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. She's asked 25 to see the article. This isn't a memory 21 article itself. 22 Q. Do you know if there was any 23 epidemiological study that looked at whether or 24 not there was an increased risk of asbestosis of 25 using any asbestos-containing material that was 19 (Pages 70 to 73) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 74 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 done before 1940? 3 A. The Dreesen study done in 19381 4 would consider an epidemiological study done on 5 textile workers in a textile mill. 6 Q. Okay. With respect to asbestos 7 insulating covers, or whatever the phrase was 8 Brown used, are you aware of any epidemiological 9 study done on those products with respect to 10 risk of asbestosis? 11 A. You're saying done before a certain 12 date? 13 Q. Before Brown gave that speech. 14 A. I don't know. 15 Q. Is it necessary that there have been 16 an epidemiological study showing an increased 17 risk from asbestos-containing materials that 18 Brown was referring to before he could conclude 19 that there was an increased risk? 20 A. Could you repeat that, please? | 21 Q. Sure. Is it necessary, or was it | 22 necessary at the time Brown gave his speech for 23 there to have been an epidemiological study on 124 the particular asbestos-containing products he 25 was talking about for which there was an Page 76 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct occupational disease. Why don't you get the sentence? Find the Brown article so we get it right. (Whereupon, the witness peruses the computer.) A. I think I have the part that you're referring to in front of me. Q. Okay. Can you read that sentence? A. "Asbestosis, there is a potential occupation disease hazard due to inhalation of asbestos dust among workers engaged in the manufacture of asbestos insulating covers, flanges, valves and high temperature steam turbines." Q. Okay. Now, it's your understanding that Brown is not talking about people in some 8 private factory somewhere manufacturing 9 asbestos-containing insulation covers, right? 20 A. I'm assuming that since he's in the 21 Navy and he's talking about the Navy, I'm 22 assuming he's talking about asbestos in the Navy 23 as a potential occupational disease hazard. 24 Q. Used in insulation covers for 25 flanges, valves and high temperature steam Page 75 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 increased risk of asbestosis in order for him to 3 conclude that there was an increased risk of 4 asbestosis? 5 A. I'm not here as a medical and 6 toxicological expert. The question is very 7 vague, so I, maybe you could reword it for me. 8 Q. Sure. I want you to assume there was 9 no epidemiological study showing an increased 10 risk of asbestosis from the types of products 11 Brown was talking about in his speech. I want 12 you to assume that, all right? Are you with me 13 so far? 14 A. Could you repeat that? 15 Q. Sure. I want you to assume there was 16 no epidemiological study that showed an 17 increased risk of asbestosis for the kinds of 18 products that Brown was talking about in his 19 speech. Do you have that assumption in mind? 120 A. Yes. 21 Q. Does that mean that Brown's statement 22 that there was an increased risk is not valid? 23 A. I don't understand the question. I'm 24 sorry. I25 Q. Okay. Brown said that there was an Page 77 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 turbines, as he mentions? 3 A. Potential occupational disease, 4 insulation covers for flanges, valves and high 5 temperature steam turbines. 6 Q. And is it fair to say you are not 7 aware one way or the other as to whether or not 8 there were any epidemiological studies that 9 showed there was or was not an increased risk 10 from the use of those materials at that time? 11 A. At that time? 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. In 1940, I'm not aware of an 14 epidemiologic study having been conducted at the 15 time in 1940 on these materials that he mentions 16 in this article. 17 Q. And I'm including prior to 1940? 18 A. He's talking about, it's not clear to 19 me, but he's talking about insulating covers for 20 flanges, valves and high temperature steam 21 turbines. An insulating cover in my experience 22 with the Navy can be a textile material. So 23 whether he's referring to textiles, it's not 24 clear to me. So in 1940 he may have been 25 referring to the study done in the textile 20 (Pages 74 to 77) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 78 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 mills. I don't know. 3 Q. Okay. So what's your understanding 4 when he's talking about the product 5 asbestos-containing insulating covers, what is 6 he talking about? 7 A. His description is 8 asbestos-containing insulating covers for 9 flanges, valves and high temperature steam 10 turbines, and that's the description. 11 Q. Okay. Can you tell me any more 12 specifically what it is he's talking about? 13 A. Not based on what's written here, no. 14 Q. How about based on anything else? 15 A. There may be other information in 16 other literature. I don't know. I'm just looking 17 at the words that are written right here. 18 Q. So as you sit here now you can't tell 19 us what Brown was talking about other than the I20 words he uses which we can all read? 21 A. I'm taking him at his value of his 22 listing of words as they are written. 23 Q. But you can't tell us, can you 24 describe the product he's talking about other 25 than the fact that it contains asbestos and is Page 80 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 epidemiological study on that substance showing 3 an increased risk? 4 A. We're using the term epidemiological 5 study a little loosely, so maybe you could 6 define what you're calling an epidemiological 7 study and I can try to answer the question. Can 8 you focus that for me? 9 Q. Can you tell me your understanding of 0 what an epidemiological study is? 1 A. My understanding is that 2 epidemiologic studies study diseases in 3 populations. 4 Q. Do you know anything else about 5 epidemiological studies? 6 A. There are a lot of things that relate 7 to epidemiologic studies. Maybe you could ask 18 me. 19 Q. Sure. Are there different kinds of 20 epidemiological studies? 21 A. If there were two broad studies, 22 prospective and retrospective epidemiological 23 studies. 24 Q. Okay. With respect to retrospective 25 epidemiological studies, are there types of Page 79 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 used to insulate flanges, valves and high 3 temperature steam turbines? 4 A. As I sit here now, not beyond what 5 he's listed in this. 6 Q. Fair enough. I want you to assume 7 there was no epidemiological study showing an 8 increased risk of asbestosis from the use of 9 those products. I want you to assume no 10 epidemiological study showing an increased risk 11 of asbestos. Does that fact mean that Brown's 12 conclusion is invalid? 13 A. I don't know how to answer the 14 question. 15 Q. Okay. In order for Brown's 16 statement that there was an increased risk or 17 potential increased risk, would it have been 18 necessary for him to have been relying on an 19 epidemiological study that showed an increased 120 risk? 21 A. I don't understand the question. 22 Q. Okay. In the field of industrial 23 hygiene with respect to any substance before you 24 can say that there is a potential risk of harm 125 from that substance, does there have to be an Page 81 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 retrospective epidemiological studies? 3 A. I'm sure there are. I've had some 4 general background in epidemiology, but I'm not 5 an epidemiologist. 6 Q. What do you mean by retrospective 7 epidemiological study? 8 A. Well, in general, retrospective 9 epidemiological studies look back over time and 10 study diseases in populations trying to 11 determine whatever the hypothesis is that 12 they're studying. 13 Q. Okay. In the industrial hygiene 14 community do you need to have a retrospective 15 epidemiological study in order to come to the 16 conclusion that a particular substance increases 17 the risk of that disease? Is that some kind of 18 requirement? 19 A. Well, talking about in general? 20 Q. I'm talking about in general, yes. 21 A. I don't understand the question. 22 Q. You're an industrial hygienist? 23 A. I am. 24 Q. You deal with hazardous substances? 25 A. Yes, I do. 21 (Pages 78 to 81) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 82 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. And hazardous substance is a 3 substance that increases the risk of some 4 adverse outcome in humans; is that fair to say? 5 A. In general, I'd say a hazardous 6 substance for the potential for causing harm. 7 Q. And an industrial hygienist before 8 you can conclude that a substance has the 9 potential to cause harm, do you have to have an 10 epidemiological study retrospective or 11 prospective or any other epidemiological study 12 to come to that conclusion? 13 A. I'm not a physician or toxicologist. 14 I have general background in that, and I, I 15 think the question is so broad it could depend 16 on a variety of factors. I don't know how to 17 answer that. 18 Q. Okay. What are the factors it depends 19 on? 20 A. Your question is - 1don't 21 understand it. 22 Q. Okay. For every hazardous substance 23 you're aware of as an industrial hygienist you 24 believe there's been an epidemiological study 25 that shows there is an increased risk of the Page 84 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 A. The first major epidemiological study 3 done on asbestos was published in 1938 by 4 Dreesen, and that was a study done in the 5 asbestos textile mills. 6 Q. And before that study was published 7 the Navy at least as of 1922 knew that asbestos 8 exposure was hazardous, correct? 9 A. I said that before, that study was 10 conducted, it was known that high levels of 11 fibrosis-inducing dust, including asbestos could 12 cause conditions, in this case, asbestosis or 13 other fibrotic conditions that could also be 14 caused. 15 Q. Are you talking about 16 asbestos-related disease? You said or other 17 fibrotic conditions that can be caused. Are you 18 talking about by asbestos? 19 A. I was talking in the general scope of 20 substances that can cause fibrosis of the lung. 21 Q. I'm not talking - 22 A. Including asbestos being one of them. 23 High levels of dust can cause dust disease, the 24 dusty lung that was known. 25 Q. I'm talking about asbestosis and Page 83 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 harm from that substance? 3 A. Well, I'd say in the substances 4 listed for ACGIH threshold limit values or OSHA 5 acceptable limits they're set based on best 6 available. Whether that's epidemiologic or not, 7 it depends. 8 Q. Okay. So it doesn't have to be an 9 epidemiological study to conclude a substance is 10 a hazard? It may be or may not be? 11 A. Your question is too broad. I can't 12 answer. 13 Q. Okay. |14 A. I can't answer it. Could you focus it 15 for me, please? 16 Q. Sure. What's the first i 17 epidemiological study with regard to risk of 18 disease from asbestos exposure that you're aware 19 of? 120 A. I'm aware of the first major 21 epidemiological study. 22 Q. I'm not asking major. I'm asking the 23 first you believe in your opinion is the first 124 epidemiological study, major, minor, in the 125 middle? Page 85 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 nothing else. I hope we don't have to go back, 3 but, it's your opinion in 1922 the Navy knew 4 high levels of asbestos exposure to cause 5 asbestosis; is that your opinion? 6 A. It's my opinion that in 1922 that it 7 would have been known that high levels of 8 exposure to dust can cause fibrotic lung 9 conditions. 10 Q. Okay. I'm not asking about dust in 11 general. I'm not asking about fibrotic 12 conditions in general. It's your opinion that it 13 was known in 1922 that high levels of asbestos 14 exposure to cause asbestosis? 15 A. I'd say at about that time it was 16 known that high levels of dust could cause 17 dusty, could cause fibrotic condition, including 18 asbestos at high levels causing asbestosis. 19 Q. And with respect to asbestos and I 20 asbestosis then, that was 16 years before the 121 first epidemiological study on that subject, 22 right? 23 A. It was years before the Dreesen study. 24 Q. And I thought you said the first 25 epidemiological study with respect to asbestos 22 (Pages 82 to 85) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 86 Page 88 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 and asbestosis was 1938? 2 few ways, but, yes, I can say that. 3 A. That's what I just said. 3 Q. Okay. Is there some other 4 Q. Okay. So then in 1922 the knowledge 4 interpretation to epidemiological study that 5 about asbestos causing asbestosis was 16 years 5 would lead you to believe that there was a 6 before the first epidemiological study on that 6 epidemiological study before 1938 that showed an 7 subject? 7 increased risk of asbestosis from high levels of 8 A. Going back in time being there, back 8 asbestos exposure? 9 then it was known that high levels of dust could 9 A. In terms of an epidemiological study 10 cause dusty, a dusty lung type condition, and, 10 correlating various factors, including exposure 11 yes, it was 16 years taking the date 1922, 11 in which Dreesen did in 1938, to me, that's the 12 thafs 16 years before Dreesen in 1938. 12 first epidemiological study of that type 13 Q. So it was known that asbestos 13 correlating health factors with exposure. 14 exposure at high levels could cause asbestosis 14 Q. Okay. Is there some other type of 15 16 years before a epidemiological study was done 15 epidemiological study that correlated an 16 on that subject? 16 increased risk of asbestosis from asbestos? 17 A. Can you repeat that, please? 17 A. I'm here not -- maybe what other 18 Q. Sure. In 1922, it was known that high 18 people are calling epidemiological studies I 19 levels of asbestos exposure to cause asbestos 19 would not. 20 disease and that was 16 years before the first 20 Q. Have you read the Merriwether study 21 epidemiological study on that subject? 21 from 1930 on asbestos exposure and asbestos 22 A. What I said before was that the Navy 22 disease? 23 was aware in 1922, the Navy would have been 23 A. Yes, I've read Merriwether and Price 24 aware, and I'm gearing my remarks this morning 24 1930. 25 to the Navy, and the Navy would have been aware 25 Q. Is that a epidemiological study? Page 87 Page 89 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 that high levels of exposure to different kinds 2 A. I'd have to look at the article to 3 of dust would have caused a dusty lung 3 answer your question, but, in terms of 4 condition, in this case asbestosis. 4 quantifying exposure and correlating it with 5 Q. So 16 years before the first 5 disease -- 6 epidemiological study on the subject of asbestos 6 Q. I'm not talking about quantifying 7 the Navy knew that high levels of exposure to 7 exposure. I'm talking about a belief that there 8 asbestos could cause asbestosis? 8 was an increased risk of asbestosis from 9 A. Well, the health and safety 9 asbestos exposure, what was the first 10 professionals of the Navy could be trained, 10 epidemiological study on that subject, to your 11 would have been aware of the high level of 11 knowledge? 12 exposure to fibrosis conditions such as asbestos 12 A. I'd rather not use the term since I 13 dust could cause in this case asbestosis. 13 don't feel comfortable that we're talking about 14 Q. And that was 16 years before the 14 the same thing as far as epidemiological study. 15 first epidemiological study on that, that was 16 15 I'll say that Dreesen was the first study that 16 years before the first epidemiological study on 16 was correlating disease and quantified the 17 that subject? It sounds like math to me. I don't 17 number that they assumed or which they believed 18 know why we're having such a difficult time 18 was safe, meaning the five million particles per 19 here. 19 cubic foot. 20 You said the first epidemiological 20 Q. So you're saying a epidemiological 21 study was 1938 that showed an increased risk of 21 study is only a study that quantifies a number 22 asbestos disease from high levels of asbestos 22 above or below an increased risk? 23 exposure, right? 23 A. I'm not a epidemiologist and I'mj ust 24 A. Yes. And I mentioned before that the 24 trying to define the study for you, meaning, 25 term epidemiologic study can be interpreted in a 25 they quantified exposure, they measured certain PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 23 (Pages 86 to 89) Page 90 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 disease factors and came up with a level that 3 they thought was safe. What other people call 4 epidemiologic studies or not, I don't know. 5 Q. So you don't know whether the 6 Merriwether and Price study was or was not an 7 epidemiological study? 8 A. I think we're using the term 9 epidemiological study here more loosely than I 10 feel comfortable with. 11 Q. Okay. An epidemiological study is a 12 study looking at populations of humans that 13 demonstrates or doesn't demonstrate, tests the 14 hypothesis where there's an increased risk from 15 a certain exposure. Using that definition, what 16 was the first epidemiological study with respect 17 to asbestos disease that you're aware of? 18 A. Well, I'll use my definition. 19 Q. I'm asking you to use my definition. 20 A. I can't. I'm sorry. 21 Q. You can't tell us what the first 22 study is that you're aware of that demonstrated 23 an increased risk of asbestosis from any 24 asbestos exposure? It's a simple yes or no. You 25 can or can't. I'm not asking for your Page 92 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 as an industrial hygienist, and I really am 3 having trouble with your broad term of 4 epidemiological study. 5 Q. And I understand you're having that 6 trouble, or at least you're saying you're having 7 that trouble. What I'm trying to do now is 8 eliminate that trouble, because I'm asking you 9 for your definition of an epidemiological study? 0 A. Well, as I said before, in general 1 epidemiologic studies study diseases in 2 populations. 3 Q. Are you done? 4 A. That's a general term. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. As an industrial hygienist I have 7 studied epidemiology, I have a general 8 background in it. 9 Q. Okay. Using your definition, a study 20 that looks at diseases in populations, when was 21 the first such study with respect to asbestos? 22 A. I'd have to look at some documents 23 because you're using this term so broadly right 24 now that I have to return to look at some of the 25 materials. Page 91 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 definition. I'm asking for my definition now. 3 A. Can you repeat that? Your questions 4 seem to be changing and I'm trying to focus in to 5 answer what you're asking. 6 Q. I want you to define epidemiological 7 study as a study that looks at whether or not 8 there's an increased risk of a disease from an 9 exposure. With that definition, can you tell me 10 what the first epidemiological study with 11 respect to asbestos exposure was, when it was 12 done and who authored it? 13 A. If we're looking at an epidemiologic 14 study of textile workers, that was done in 1938 15 by Dreesen where he correlated exposure and 16 disease, came up with a level that he thought 17 was safe, five million particles per cubic foot. 18 Q. Okay. How about any workers? I'm not 19 limiting my definition to textile workers. 20 A. Your question is so broad I don't 21 know how else to answer it. 22 Q. I don't understand why you think my 23 question is broad. Tell me your definition of an 24 epidemiological study? 25 A. I am not a epidemiologist. I sit here Page 93 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. I'm using your definition. You just 3 gave me your definition. I'll take that 4 definition. Can you tell me when was the first 5 such study without looking at documents? 6 A. As I said before, Dreesen was the 7 first study that correlated, that measured 8 exposures and that correlated disease, and, to 9 me, that is an epidemiologic study. Whether 10 there were others, I don't feel comfortable in 11 saying because of this definition being so broad 12 and 1need to look at other materials. 13 Q. What definition being so broad? 14 A. When we're talking about 15 epidemiologic study. 16 Q. I'm talking about studies that look 17 at disease in populations, that's what I'm 18 talking about, because that's my understanding 19 of how you defined epidemiologic studies. With 20 that definition, the one that you gave, when was 21 the first such study with respect to asbestos, 22 the study that looked at diseases in populations 23 with respect to asbestos exposure? 24 A. Well, as an industrial hygienist 25 looking at quantifying certain levels - 24 (Pages 90 to 93) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 94 Page 96 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. Your definition didn't mention 2 Q. Okay. And by "documents," you're 3 quantifying levels, did it? 3 talking about the list that we've been referring 4 A. No. 4 to? 5 Q. Because if you want to define your 5 A. There are some documents that are 6 definition of an epidemiological study as 6 listed on the list, there are some that may not 7 quantifying measures, we can to - 7 be that I just know from past experience and 8 A. If you want me to answer the question 8 training in asbestos. 9 the way I can, I'll do it. If you're trying to 9 Q. What do you mean that you know? 10 answer my question, I don't think that's the way 10 A. That I'm familiar with. 11 this is supposed to work. 11 Q. Well, then tell me about it. If 12 Q. Put qualification aside. Forget about 12 you're familiar with the article, why can't you 13 qualification. I'mjust talking about a study 13 tell me about them? 14 that talked about diseases in population without 14 MR. SPEZIALI: As you sit here today, 15 any quantification involved. Do you know when 15 do you know off the top of your head any 16 the first such study with respect to asbestos 16 other studies, epidemiological studies 17 was? 17 anywhere in the world prior to Dreesen. 18 A. I'll say as an industrial hygienist 18 THE WITNESS: As I sit here today, 19 that I look at what we're discussing right now, 19 Dreesen is the one that comes to mind. 20 I would say that the Dreesen study in 1938 which 20 MR. SPEZIALI: Okay. 21 studied diseases in textile workers and 21 Q. Have you read Dr. Betts' deposition 22 correlated exposures with diseases established 22 that I took recently? 23 what was considered a safe level of five million 23 A. Yes. 24 per cubic foot at that point is what I 24 Q. When did you read that? 25 consider the first major epidemiologic study 25 A. About a week ago. Page 95 Page 97 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 as far as asbestos in this country. 2 Q. Okay. And have you spoken to Dr. 3 Q. I'm not limiting my question to this 3 Betts? 4 country. I'm not limiting my question to major 4 A. Not since a week ago. 5 or minor. Is your answer the same that - 5 Q. Okay. How about before that? 6 A. I don't know. 6 A. Several months ago I met Dr. Betts on 7 Q. You qualified your answer with 7 an occasion. 8 respect to Dreesen in terms of a major study and 8 Q. Were you done? 9 in this country, and I was not limiting my 9 A. Yes. 10 question to major or otherwise nor to this 10 Q. Who else was with you when you met 11 country. So without those limitations, is your 11 Dr. Betts? 12 answer any different? 12 A. When I met Dr. Betts, Mr. Kapshandy 13 A. Well, the way I look at a 13 was there, Mr. Fitzpatrick, Mr. Speziali. 14 epidemiologic study being as comprehensive as 14 Q. Anybody else besides you, Dr. Betts 15 Dreesen was measuring various factors as far as 15 and the GE attorneys you've mentioned? 16 exposure correlating health effects, I would say 16 A. Not that I recall. 17 that that is the first study of that type in 17 Q. Okay. Was your understanding these 18 this country. 18 other folks were GE attorneys? 19 Q. Okay. Is there any other study of any 19 A. Could you say that again? 20 other type that looked at diseases in 20 Q. Sure. The folks other than you and 21 populations other than Dreesen before Dreesen? 21 Dr. Betts that you just mentioned were General 22 A. Well, when we're talking about 22 Electric attorneys, attorneys obtained by 23 diseases in populations that's a general term 23 General Electric with respect to asbestos 24 and I would have to look at the documents to be 24 litigation? 25 more comprehensive in my answer. 25 A. Yes, that's my understanding, they're PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 25 (Pages 94 to 97) 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 attorneys retained by General Electric. 3 Q. Where was this meeting? Page 98 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 for the Navy and we were just talking about 3 things in general. Page 100 : ; 4 A. It was in Chicago. 4 Q. Did you discuss anything relating to 5 Q. And when was it? 5 the Navy's knowledge historically about the 6 A. I'd say in late fall of 2003. 6 hazards of asbestos? 7 Q. And did Dr. Betts show you his Power 7 A. At what time period are you talking 8 Point presentation at that time? 8 about? 9 A. No. 9 Q. You had a meeting with Dr. Betts in 10 Q. Did you discuss the subject that 10 late 2003 in Chicago with the GE lawyers, right? 11 we're discussing now, Navy knowledge of the 11 A. Yes. 12 hazards of asbestos? 12 Q. It's a simple question. Did you 13 A. Well, it depends on which point in 13 discuss in that meeting the subject of the 14 time. Dr. Betts had an illustrious career with 14 Navy's knowledge of the hazards of asbestos 15 the Navy and I had worked for the Navy, as well, 15 historically with Betts, with anybody else at 16 and we talked about things that happened in the 16 the meeting? I'm assuming everybody was talking, 17 Navy contemporaneous when we were there. 17 right, or maybe my assumption is wrong? 18 Q. You worked for the Navy when? 18 MR. SPEZIALI: Up to now you said 19 A. I worked for the Navy from 1976 to 19 Betts. Do you understand what I'm saying? 20 1977. 20 Q. Did the subject of the Navy's 21 Q. When in '76? 21 historical knowledge of the hazards of asbestos 22 A. July 1976. 22 come up during that meeting? 23 Q. To when in '77? 23 A. Well, I'd say in general that Dr. 24 A. July 1977. 24 Betts was very proud of -- 25 Q. Okay. And that was at the Long Beach 25 Q. I'm not asking you the substance yet. Page 99 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Navy Shipyard? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. So you worked for one year as a 5 civilian employee of the Navy? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And you're saying your conversation 8 with Dr. Betts related only to your experience 9 in that one year? 10 A. No. 11 Q. So you spoke with Dr. Betts and the 12 GE lawyers about the Navy's knowledge 13 historically about the hazards of asbestos, 14 didn't you? You weren't there to talk about the 15 Cubs? 16 A. Well, I'd say our conversation was 17 general, social and did cover on his career, 18 what he had been doing when I worked for the 19 Navy, general things like that. 20 Q. Did you get paid by GE for your time 21 at the meeting? 22 A. Yes, I did. 23 Q. You're saying you were talking about 24 social things? 25 A. Well, we knew people who had worked Page 101 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 I'm just asking you if the subject came up? 3 A. Well, the question is very broad. I'd ; 4 say in general the subject of the Navy and their 5 excellent health and safety program came up. 6 Q. And did the subject of the hazards of 7 asbestos and when the Navy knew of those hazards 8 come up? 9 A. As I sit here right now, I don't 10 recall. 11 Q. So tell me all the subjects that were 12 discussed at this meeting? How wonderful the 13 Navy was. What else? 14 A. Well, certainly, Dr. Betts was very 15 proud of the Navy's program. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. The Navy had been on the cutting edge 18 of information relating to health and safety and 19 asbestos. 20 Q. Okay. So other than Dr. Betts'pride 21 and how wonderful the Navy was, what else? 22 A. I was familiar with that, too. I 23 worked with the Navy and I was familiar with 24 their fine programs in health and safety, and 25 particularly with regard to asbestos. 26 (Pages 98 to 101) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 102 Page 104 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. Well, what did you know in the 1970s 2 Felton (phonetic), and I had spent considerable * 3 about the Navy's programs with respect to 3 time with him, and that was one person from whom ; 4 asbestos historically? 4 I learned about the long tradition of the Navy's ; 5 A. Could you repeat that? 5 health and safety program. ; 6 Q. Sure. What did you know when you were 6 Q. I'm talking about the hazards of ; 7 in the Navy between July '76 and July '77 about 7 asbestos? i 8 the historical knowledge of the Navy with 8 A. Can I finish? 9 respect to the hazards of asbestos? 9 Q. If you're talking more broadly than : 10 A. Well, I was a civilian employee with 10 that, I don't really care what your answer is. I 11 the Navy. I was the industrial hygienist at the 11 really don't. I'm talking about the hazards of i 12 Long Beach Naval Shipyard. I did surveys on the 12 asbestos historically? 13 ships and on the land and I had contact with 13 A. I'm trying to answer your question, j 14 medical and industrial hygiene personnel who had 14 but you cut me off I don't know what to do. i 15 been there for long periods of time, and, the 15 Q. Did Dr. Gene Spencer Felton talk to 16 history of the Navy and occupational health and 16 you about the Navy's historical knowledge about 17 safety and industrial hygiene was just part of 17 the hazards of asbestos? i 18 the background of being in a position like that. 18 A. I would say in general Dr. Gene 19 I saw documents that went back to, 19 Spencer Felton did talk to me about the Navy's 20 that covered Navy policy and Navy programs, and, 20 long-standing tradition in health and safety 21 just having been there, I was familiar with the 21 related to asbestos, yes. 22 Navy's knowledge. 22 When I was there at the Long Beach 23 Q. Of what? 23 Navy Shipyard Dr. Selikoff came to talk 24 A. Of health and safety. 24 to workers and I had a chance to spend time 25 Q. I'm talking about the hazards of 25 with Dr. Selikoff and discuss some of his Page 103 Page 105 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 asbestos. I want to know what you knew in the 2 surveys he was doing, and, as part of what he 3 1970s about the Navy's knowledge historically 3 was talking about at the shipyard when he was 4 about the hazards of asbestos? 4 meeting with the health and safety staff and the 5 A. It's a very broad question, but I was 5 workers, he discussed various things related to 6 hired, one of the main activities that I was to 6 asbestos and the surveys he had been doing with 7 perform was to do asbestos-related work on the 7 the Navy going back over time. 8 ships in these shops, and, as part of my job, I 8 Q. Okay. Dr. Selikoff was not around 9 was given background information and training on 9 doing studies when Dr. Brown wrote about the 10 the Navy's historical knowledge, policies, the 10 risks of asbestos insulating covers and 11 way they went about controlling environment, 11 asbestosis, right? 12 protecting people. 12 A. I don't know what Dr. Selikoff was 13 Q. Who gave you that? 13 doing then. He was at the shipyard 1976, '77 14 A. Things of that nature, that would be 14 when I was there. The Brown article, as you 15 part of the recognition evaluation and control, 15 know, is from 1940. 16 which is what I as an industrial hygienist did 17 for the Navy. 16 Q. Right. So what I'm saying is, 17 Selikoff did not discover there was a risk of 18 Q. Who gave you that information in the 18 asbestosis from asbestos insulation from 19 Navy? 19 asbestos-containing insulating covers, right? 20 A. There were a variety of people. 20 A. No, Dr. Selikoff was not the first 21 Q. Okay. Name one? 21 person. Can you say that again, please? I want 22 A. Industrial hygiene people. 22 to answer the question. 23 Q. Name one? 23 Q. Sure. Do you interpret Brown's 24 A. The medical director for the civilian 24 article to mean that people who are using 25 part of the shipyard was a Dr. Gene Spencer 25 asbestos-containing insulating materials are PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 27 (Pages 102 to 105) Page 106 Page 108 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 potentially at risk for asbestos disease in the 2 A. I have a section, it's called 11.1, 3 1940s? 3 it's under "Jobs Requiring Respiratory 4 A. According to Brown's description, 4 Protective Equipment." 5 yes, that's what he was writing about, part of 5 Q. Okay. And what does it say with 6 it. 6 respect to asbestosis? 7 Q. Okay. That was some 20 plus years 7 A. It says, "Asbestos (as in covering 8 before Selikoff ever published anything on 8 pipes) required either an air line respirator or 9 asbestos; is that fair to say? 9 a dust respirator." 10 A. I don't know. 10 Q. Okay. And that was to reduce the 11 Q. Do you know when Dr. Selikoff first 12 published on the hazards of asbestos? 13 A. I'd have to look that up. 11 exposure to asbestos from that activity, right? 12 A. I would assume that, yes, to reduce 13 the exposure to asbestos from that - - 1don't 14 Q. Do you know if it was in the fifties? 14 know what you mean by "that activity." It was - 15 A. Generally, I'm familiar with his work 15 Q. Well, it says covering pipes, right? 16 in the sixties. If he did do something before 16 A. "As in covering pipes," yes. As in 17 that, before the sixties, you know, I don't 17 covering pipe activity, yes. 18 know, but, in general, his studies were, say, 18 Q. So Selikoff did not discover that 19 mid-sixties, '70. 19 covering of pipes with asbestos-containing 20 Q. What population was Selikoff studying 20 insulation material was a hazard, right? That 21 in the mid-sixties and seventies? 21 was known at least as of 1943? 22 A. In the mid-sixties, 1970, Dr. 22 A. Yes, I would say it was known in 1943 23 Selikoff was primarily studying insulators. 23 that they needed to keep the dust exposure 24 Q. And that risk to insulators from 24 levels down so they could recommend certain 25 asbestos exposure was known at least as of 1940, 25 minimum requirements, literally, this being for Page 107 Page 109 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 right? 2 respiratory protection. 3 A. As I said, knowing what we looked at 3 Q. And the reason you wanted to keep the 4 in the Brown article, I don't know exactly what 4 levels down was because you wanted to reduce the 5 he was describing. 5 risk of disease, right? 6 Q. Well, we'll get to the minimum 6 A. The reason why you wanted to keep the 7 requirements document. But they were talking 7 asbestos levels down, yes, you wanted to reduce 8 about asbestos-containing materials and people 8 the exposure to asbestos and reduce the 9 using asbestos-containing insulating materials, 9 likelihood of disease. 10 right? 10 Q. Is that the section on respirators? 11 A. I would have to look at the article. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Why don't you look at the article? 12 Q. Can you go to the introductory 13 A. Okay. 13 paragraph of that where they talk about the, 14 (Whereupon, the witness peruses the 14 there's a reference to a manual or American 15 computer.) 15 standard with respect to respirators. Do you see 16 Q. Do you have the minimum requirements 16 that? Do you want me to try to find it? 17 there? 17 A. Yes. 18 A. Yes. 18 (Whereupon, Mr. Kristal peruses the 19 Q. I think the section on asbestosis, I 19 computer.) 20 think it's H 13, maybe Page 9. I'm doing it off 20 Q. The section right after that, 11.7, 21 the top of my head so I'm not sure if that's 21 what does that say? 22 accurate. 22 A. 11.7, "Air supply for air line masks 23 (Whereupon, the witness continues to 23 of all kinds." 24 peruse the computer.) 24 Q. Right. What does the section say? 25 Q. Do you have that section? 25 A. "Air at a comfortable temperature and T? 28 (Pages 106 to 109) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 110 Page 112 ? 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct | 2 free from odors and excessive moisture sometimes 2 A. I would like to check. 1 3 is difficult to furnish especially for outdoor 3 Q. Okay. s 4 jobs in winter. Air adequate and temperature 4 (Whereupon, the witness continues to ; 5 shall be used." 5 peruse the computer.) 5 6 Q. I think you're reading the wrong 6 MR. SPEZIALI: I'm drawing on memory 7 thing. 7 here but sort of looking over the shoulder 8 A. That's 11.7. 8 here. I'm not so sure the entire document 9 Q. Okay. Maybe I misread it. It referred 9 is there. My recollection is it's a 10 to what's in this section, so I apologize 10 multi-page document, and Fm only seeing 11 because that caught my eye. This is the section, 11 about four pages here. 12 10.3, "General Requirements for Respirators." Do 12 MR. KRISTAL: Then it's definitely not ; 13 you see that? That references something, does it 13 there. It's way more than four pages. 14 not? 14 MR. SPEZIALI: I know what you're \ 15 A. Yes. Would you like me to read it? 15 referring to, and I dont think it's ; 16 Q. Yes, please. 16 there. 17 A. "General Requirements for 17 A. There appears to be four pages in ; 18 Respirators. Adequate protection is defined by 18 total here and that's it. I don't have the 19 the American Standards Safety Code for the 19 entire document in front of me. 20 protection of heads, eyes and respiratory organs 20 Q. If you look at the introduction of [ 21 Handbook H 24 November 3rd," it looks like 1938. 21 the document, which I think is there, it was j 22 Q. Right. 22 addressed to contractors, was it not? 23 A. "Superintendent of Documents, 23 A. It's addressed all contractors 24 Washington DC. Price: $.15." 24 constructing ships for the United States Navy 25 Q. Have you ever read that document? 25 and the Maritime Commission. Page 111 Page 113 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 A. Maybe, maybe not. I don't recall. 2 Q. Okay. So does that lead you to 3 Q. Do you know whether GE, a GE employee 3 conclude that the document was widely 4 was on the committee that wrote that document? 4 disseminated? 5 A. No. 5 A. I think that it went to the people 6 Q. Okay. The section that you read about 6 who it was intended to go to, the contractors 7 asbestos exposure and people insulating pipes 7 constructing ships for the United States Navy 8 required to wear types, the types of respirators 8 and the United States Maritime Commission. 9 you mentioned, is that the only section in the 9 Q. Do you know how many such shipyards 10 minimum requirements on asbestos? 10 there were in the US in 1943, shipyards building 11 A. I would have to look through the 11 US maritime ships? 12 document to answer that. 12 A. No, I don't. 13 Q. All right. Why don't you do that. 14 MR. SPEZIALI: Are we going to take a 13 Q. Do you know how many contractors 14 throughout the US that that document would have 15 break at some point? 15 been distributed to? 16 MR. KRISTAL: Sure. Why don't we just 16 A. You mean how many contractors 17 finish this section. 17 constructed ships for the United States Navy and 18 Q. It's in the 13's, I believe, Section 18 Maritime Commission? 19 13,1think. 19 Q. Yes. 20 (Whereupon, the witness peruses the 20 A. Not as I sit here right now. 21 computer.) 21 Q. What do you mean not as you sit here 22 A. I don't show a Section 13 on here. 22 right now? 23 Q. It may not be 13. There's a section 23 A. Well, as I sit here right now, I 24 on asbestosis, right, or you need to look to 24 don't. 25 see? 25 Q. Okay. Is it fair to say though this PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 29 (Pages 110 to 113) Page 114 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 was not any sort o f secret document o f any kind, 3 it wasn't meant to be exclusive to the Navy or 4 the US Maritime Commission, right? 5 A. Right, I don't think this was a 6 secret document. 7 Q. So anybody who would have received 8 this document or was aware of the document if 9 they read it would be aware of the information 10 in the document? It's just logic, it seems to me? 11 A. If people received it and read it 112 they would have been aware of the information. 13 Q. And the respirator manual we looked 14 at earlier, Section 10.3, that was available at 15 the time for $. 15 from the government printing 16 office, right? 117 A. If it's the one I just read into the 18 record, yes, that one was available for $. 15 at 19 the time. I 20 Q. So publicly available information at 21 the time? 22 A. Yes, if we're talking about the 23 specific information, yes. 24 MR. KRISTAL: Why don't we take a 25 break? Page 116 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 the document to check the date or otherwise 3 intimate that you were off by 20 years? 4 A. No. I was looking at the document. 5 Q. Just on your own? 6 A. I was looking at the documents to 7 double check. I mentioned before I wanted to 8 look at some documents. 9 Q. What led you to double check the 10 date? 11 A. What led me to double check it? 12 Q. Just to double check it for myself. 13 A. Just for myself. 14 Q. What other dates did you double 15 check? 16 A. The date of 1922 from when, from the 17 Navy program starting in 1922. 18 Q. What other dates did you check? 19 A. As I said, th e'22 date which I had 20 mentioned for the Navy inception program. 21 Q. My question has nothing to do with 22 that. I'm asking now, what other dates, or, if | 23 you didn't check any other dates you can say no 24 other dates? 25 A. No other dates. Page 115 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 (Whereupon, there is a recess in the 3 proceedings.) 4 MR. KRISTAL: Do we have the full 5 minimum requirements? 6 MR. KAPSHANDY: No, I don't believe 7 so. 8 MR. KRISTAL: Okay. 9 Q. Can you pull up the section on the 10 respirator that mentioned asbestos and the types 11 of respirators to be used? 12 A. Yes. I had a chance to double check a 13 document over lunch and I'd like to make a 14 correction to something that I said before, and, 115 that was that the first Naval people went to the 16 Harvard School of Public Health in 1942, not '22 17 as I mentioned before. 118 Q. Okay. 19 A. So I just want to correct that. 120 Q. Who told you that you had made a 21 mistake? 22 A. I went to look at the document and I 23 discovered it myself. So I looked at it and I 24 noticed that it was '42, not '22. 125 Q. Did anybody suggest that you look at Page 117 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 MR. SPEZIALI: She had lunch with me, 3 Mr. Kapshandy, Mr. Emery, Mr. Fitzpatrick 4 and we provided her with the transcript 5 from the Betts deposition which we told you 6 we were going to provide her with at the 7 lunch break. 8 Q. Why don't we go to the minimum 9 requirements document. 10 A. I got it here, and I think this is 11 the abbreviated one. 12 Q. Well, when you say "abbreviated," i 13 it's the one that's missing a lot of pages, it's 14 not an abbreviated version? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And the section on the respirators j 17 that mentioned asbestos and the types of 18 respirators to be used? 19 A. Yes, it has a section on that. I 20 Q. And it is saying that when asbestos 21 pipe- - strike that. 22 Can you read the first sentence 23 again, asbestos in pipe covering or something to 24 that effect? I 25 A. Yes. It's "Jobs Requiring Respiratory 30 (Pages 114 to 117) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 118 Page 120 : 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct s 2 Protective Equipment," and it's listed "Dust 2 they're breathing fresh air. 1 3 asbestos as in," it looks like covering pipes 3 Q. Okay. And it doesn't say that an air J 4 air line respirator, dust respirator. 4 line respirator is required when there are high 5 5 Q. Okay. And an air line respirator is a 5 levels of asbestos dust, does it? ; 6 respirator such that the person wearing it is 6 A. As I read this right now it just says l 7 not breathing any outside air, right, it's 7 dust. 1 8 self-contained? 8 Q. So it's saying when you're doing a f 9 A. No. An air line respirator is a type 9 job in which you are using an 10 of respirator that supplies air from a remote 10 asbestos-containing product you should be ? 11 source, meaning, not from the immediate 11 wearing an air line respirator or the other 5 12 vicinity. Sometimes, I don't consider 12 option was the dust respirator, right? ^ 13 self-contained breathing apparatus as part of 13 A. No. Specifically what it says here is J 14 that what I think you're describing. Air line 14 when you're covering pipes. 5 15 meaning to me that there's a line to a remote 15 Q. Okay. ; 16 source to fresh air bringing it in. 16 A. So it says asbestos covered pipes, 17 Q. But the air line respirator referred 17 air line respirator or - 18 to there prevents the person from breathing any 18 Q. It says asbestos as in covering 19 of the air that is in an area that asbestos is 19 pipes, right? 20 being used? 20 A. Correct. i 21 A. Depending on a variety of factors, 21 Q. So they're using that as an example, 22 yes, it's hoped that an air line respirator 22 correct? ; 23 would provide a fresh air supply to the person, 23 A. Yes, it is used as an example. It 24 yes. 24 says asbestos as in covering pipe. 25 Q. And the air that's being supplied to 25 Q. But it's not meant to be, at least Page 119 Page 121 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 the person is coming from a hose that is far 2 your understanding of it, exclusive to that 3 away from where the asbestos is being used, 3 activity of covering pipes, correct? 4 right? 4 A. Right. 5 A. What you're talking about asbestos, 5 Q. Okay. And they're not talking about 6 I'd say in general. 6 whether the level is high, low or somewhere in 7 Q. I'm not talking in general. I'm 7 between, they're saying if you're working with 8 talking about as you understand that section 8 asbestos as in covering pipes you should wear 9 where it says jobs requiring respirators for 9 either a full air line respirator, right? 10 asbestos, including covering pipes, it says one 10 A. Okay. 11 of the recommendations or requirements is an air 11 Q. Or the dust respirator, correct? 12 line respirator, right? 12 A. Yes. If we're just looking at this 13 A. Yes. 13 section, yes, that's what it says. I don't have 14 Q. I'm trying to get your understanding 14 the rest of all the, what might be in the 15 of what that means. Are you with me? 15 article, but, yes, that's correct, it says 16 A. Yes. 16 asbestos if it's present. 17 Q. Okay. Ifs your understanding that 17 Q. By that are you saying that you think 18 that means there's a hose that is leading away 19 from the person that is accessible to fresh air 20 so when the person is breathing the person is 21 breathing from a source that is not in the 18 there may be something that talks about only 19 wearing respiratory protection or taking other 20 protective measures when you're around high 21 levels of asbestos or you don't know without 22 immediate area where the asbestos is being used? 22 looking? 23 A. Right. It's connecting the person by 24 hose to a source of air where the contaminant of 23 A. Other than looking through the whole 24 document, just looking at this itjust says 25 interest is not present so that, in other words, 25 asbestos dust. PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 31 (Pages 118 to 121) Page 122 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. Okay. No mention in the minimum 3 requirements about the five million particles 4 per cubic foot of air? 5 A. From the section I'm looking at right 6 now, it doesn't mention that. 7 Q. Without looking at the other pages 8 which we don't have in front of us you can't 9 answer that question? 10 A. With certainty, no. 11 Q. How about to a reasonable degree of 12 certainty? 13 A. I'd have to refresh myself. 1just 14 looked at the document, so... 15 Q. Do you know whether the document 16 refers to various methods of manipulating 17 asbestos-containing products as increasing your 18 risk of asbestosis? 19 A. I'd have to double check and look at 20 the document. | 21 (Whereupon, Resume is marked 22 Plaintiffs Drucker Exhibit 2 For 123 Identification.) | 24 Q. Let me talk about your resume. I i25 marked this Exhibit 2. Is that a copy of your Page 124 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct public can look at? A. I've given talks at professional 4 association meetings that it's my understanding were reprinted and the public and technical people there looked at. Q. Anything else? i A. Not that I recall. Q. When you say not that you recall, are 0 you saying there may be other things and you 1 just don't remember them, or is that the 2 universe of broad categories in which you've 3 published? 4 A. I'd say that's the universe of broad 5 categories. 6 Q. Now, the newspaper articles, are 7 these articles or columns? Do you know the 8 difference? An article is reporting something on 9 a news topic. A column is kind of expressing an 20 opinion on something. 21 A. Yes, they were columns. 22 Q. Okay. And during what period of time 23 did you write any newspaper columns? 24 A. I wrote a newspaper column for a 25 period of time, would have been maybe about the Page 123 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 resume? Do you have a copy in front of you? 3 A. Yes, I do. 4 Q. Have you ever published anything 5 that's been published in any sort of 6 professional journal on any subject? 7 A. I've published some newspaper 8 articles. 9 Q. Right. I'm talking about professional 10 journals. That's why I asked the question that 11 way? 12 A. I'm trying to answer your question 13 fully. 14 Q. Well, my question is, have you ever 15 published anything on any topic in any 16 professional journal? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Have you ever published anything on 19 anything, which is obviously a broader question? I 20 A. I've had newspaper articles that I've 21 written published. 22 Q. Anything else? 23 A. I've given some talks at professional 24 associations. I 25 Q- I'm talking about things that the Page 125 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 mid-1990s and another series of articles going 3 back to probably the early seventies. 4 Q. So for a period of time in the 5 mid-1990s you wrote some newspaper columns? I'm 6 going to get to the seventies in a little 7 while. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. How long a period of time? Can 10 you give me years, or is it less than a year? 11 A. It was less than a year. I'd say 12 maybe about five, six months. 13 Q. How often did you write these 14 columns? Was it weekly? Monthly? Daily? 15 A. It was about once a month. 16 Q. So you've written about five or six 17 newspaper columns in a one-year period in the 18 mid-1990s? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Okay. And for what newspapers did you 21 write this series of five or six columns? 22 A. The publication was called the 23 California Newspaper Publishers Association 24 Journal Newspaper. 25 Q. So it was a newspaper for the 32 (Pages 122 to 125) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 126 Page 128 a 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 California Newspaper Publishers Association? 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 A. Y es,Ido. 3 A. That's correct. 3 MR. KRISTAL: I would request a copy 4 Q. Okay. And so was this publicly 4 of that. 5 available, in other words, it's not like you go 6 to a newsstand and pick one up, or maybe you do, 7 I don't know? 8 A. I think it went to all the California 9 newspaper publishers, and, whether it's publicly 10 available beyond that, I don't know. 11 Q. And how did you get involved in doing 12 that? 13 A. California newspaper publishers, of 14 which there were many hundred, were looking for 15 consultants in the State of California to assist 16 the newspapers and they had a competition like a 17 request for proposals and they chose a firm from 18 northern California and a firm for southern 19 California, and mine was the firm from southern 20 California chosen to be a consultant throughout 21 southern California for the newspapers. So as 22 part of that I suggested and accepted that I 23 would write a newspaper article for their 24 publishers on various health and safety topics. 25 Q. And what were the topics you wrote 5 Q. It didn't discuss at all any of 6 subjects that you are going to be testifying 7 about for GE in terms of the Navy's knowledge of 8 the hazards of asbestos? 9 A. Except in the broad sense it had to 10 do with asbestos and asbestos is part of what 11 I'm looking at. It didn't talk about GE. 5 12 Q. And it didn't look at any historical : 13 perspective, did it? ? 14 A. Not that I recall, except maybe ; 15 talking about standards and things like that. 16 Q. You're talking about OSHA standards? 17 A. Relevant standards that people who j 18 have premises would be very interested in ; 19 because they're responsible for the safety of 20 the people within their premises. 21 Q. So you weren't discussing the 22 standards in a historical context, you were 23 informing the premises owners what the standards 24 were so if they measured they would know if they 25 were above or below the current standards? : Page 127 Page 129 ; 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 for? 2 A. Yes. ; 3 A. As I recall, there was one column on 3 Q. And somewhere in '76 or that time 4 asbestos, maybe one on indoor air quality, 4 frame? 5 another was an interview with the then chief of 5 A. I would say early seventies. I was in ; 6 California OSHA, and I don't recall the others. 6 Yale and I was in southern Connecticut, and 7 Q. Whatever the others were, they were 7 there was a newspaper in the southern 8 not involving asbestos? 8 Connecticut area where there were, there was 9 A. As I recall, there was just one on 9 something, it might have been around Earth Day, 10 asbestos. 10 the first Earth Day, which was around going back 11 Q. And what was the topic on asbestos 11 maybe around 1970ish or something, and I think 12 that you wrote the column on? 12 it had to coincide something around then, and it 13 A. Well, to be more specific I'd have to 13 was more based on air pollution. 14 look at it, but, what I remember is, in the 14 Q. And this is one column? 15 mid-nineties there was a large earthquake in 15 A. I think it was a series of a few 16 southern California, and, as a result of that, a 16 articles during the week. 17 lot of companies were very, they had heightened 17 Q. Okay. So during a one-week period in 18 awareness about possible asbestos in the 18 the early 1970s you wrote a series of a few 19 buildings, and, so, this was a column addressing 19 articles; is that right? 20 what they would do as premises owners who are 20 A. Yes. 21 responsible for the safety of the people within 21 Q. Anything to do with asbestos? 22 their premises and it was addressing, you know, 22 A. Not that I remember. 23 what they should consider and how they would get 23 Q. Do you have a copy of that article? 24 testing and things of that nature. 24 A. I don't know. 25 Q. Do you have a copy of this column? 25 Q. I'd like to request copies if you do. 33 (Pages 126 to 129) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 130 Page 132 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Talks to professional associations 2 way through my practice. I'm currently a 3 that have been reprinted. Do any of them have to 3 California certified asbestos consultant and 4 do with asbestos? 4 I've done consultation with companies and with 5 A. No, not that I recall. 5 places over 30 years. 6 Q. So if I'm understanding you 7 correctly, other than one column for premises 8 owners who were concerned about asbestos in 9 buildings after earthquakes in the mid-1990s, 10 you have written nothing about asbestos? 11 A. Well, nothing that was published as 12 in the types of places that you're saying. 13 Q. Okay. What have you written that's 14 not in that category? 15 A. What's not in that category would be 16 industrial hygiene surveys that I've conducted 17 over 30 years. 6 Q. And let me see if I'm understanding 7 what you're saying about asbestos industrial 8 hygiene surveys. You will go to a location, set 9 up some kind of air sampling monitoring and take 10 the results of the air sampling and get them 11 analyzed and write a report? 12 A. That's one type. There are others. 13 Q. Tell me what the others are? 14 A. There are broad surveys that we've 15 done for bulk samples of asbestos and various 16 types of locations in various types of locations 17 and policies that I put together now for 18 Q. Right. Anything else? 19 A. That would be it. 18 different companies and other types of entities 19 so that they could manage asbestos, just a broad 20 Q. So other than this one column in the 20 variety of things that would fall under general 21 mid-1990s and industrial hygiene surveys that 21 EPA and OSHA compliance that different 22 related to asbestos, you have not written 22 organizations would be interested in if they 23 anything about asbestos; is that right? 23 called in an outside consultant, I was involved 24 A. What I recall, yes. 24 in. 25 Q. Okay. Do you have any problem with 25 Q. Nothing having to do with Navy Page 131 Page 133 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 your memory? I'm asking you seriously. 2 knowledge of asbestos or GE's knowledge of 3 A. I'm giving you my best recollection. 3 asbestos hazards? 4 Q. I'm just asking you if you're aware 4 A. Well, when I was in the Navy, which 5 o f any problem with your memory? 5 is part of my over 30 years, I certainly was 6 A. I'm not aware of any. 6 doing Navy work, so that would have been part of 7 Q. When I went for my draft physical 7 it. 8 many years ago I checked off loss of memory. 8 Q. You were doing asbestos air sampling 9 When the psychiatrist asked me when was the last 9 between July of 1976 and July of 1977? 10 time I couldn't remember anything, I said I 10 A. Among other things, yes, I did 11 couldn't remember. 11 asbestos air sampling. 12 The industrial hygiene surveys that 12 Q. Where did you conduct the asbestos 13 related to asbestos, were there any industrial 13 air sampling during that period of time? 14 hygiene studies solely related to asbestos that 14 A. That was when I was at the Long Beach 15 you've written? 15 Naval Shipyard, and I did do the surveys on the 16 A. O f course, many. 16 Navy ships and in some of the shops, and it was 17 Q. When was the first, when was the 17 throughout the Long Beach Naval Shipyard. 18 last, approximately? 18 Q. And was this while there were 19 A. Approximately the first would have 19 asbestos products being installed on ships? 20 been over 32 years ago. 20 A. It's my understanding that at that 21 Q. Sometime in the early 1970s? 21 time asbestos products were not being installed, 22 A. Maybe even during when I was at 22 but they were being removed in certain areas. 23 Harvard we went and did industrial hygiene 23 They were still being handled in different 24 surveys, and some would have included asbestos, 24 manners. 25 so that goes back to 1968, '69, and then all the 25 Q. So you were measuring asbestos levels PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 34 (Pages 130 to 133) Page 134 Page 136 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct i 2 while asbestos was being removed from different 2 vicinity. I didn't mean to imply that they were 3 areas of the ship? 3 reapplying asbestos. 4 A. Yes, that's part of it, yes, I 4 Q. Right. What types of ships were you 5 certainly did that. 5 on at that point in time? 6 Q. Well, what else did you do in terms 6 A. I was on a variety of ships. I do i 7 of that period of time at the Long Beach Naval 7 recall a few destroyers, and, as I recall, there 8 Shipyard involving asbestos surveys? 8 was a very large ship, it might have been some 9 A. Your question was narrowed to 9 sort of a cruiser in for a period of time. 10 removing. There were a variety o f activity that 10 Q. Do you know anything about the ships i 11 involved different asbestos. 11 that the four gentlemen whose cases we're here 12 Q. Other than removing, what were they? 12 for, what ships they were on? ; 13 A, Other than removing? 13 A, Other than what they wrote or 14 Q. You said they weren't installing them 14 testified to, I only know the names of them. I 15 because it was your understanding they weren't 15 don't know if you're asking anything beyond that. 16 being installed at that time, so what else other 16 Q. Okay. So tell me what you've reviewed I 17 than removing? 17 other than what we'll get to, which is the GE 18 A. Well, they may have been doing some 18 documents in terms of Plaintiffs' specific ; 19 re-patching in some places, they may have been 19 materials? 20 using certain type of welding blankets that may 20 A. I reviewed the Plaintiff depositions i 21 have still contained asbestos, you know, people 21 for four gentlemen, Mr. Campa, Mr. Renow, Mr. 22 welding on the ships. 22 Zatz and Mr. Roth. ; 23 Q. So you had -- 23 Q. Anything else? 24 A. And there may have been some other 24 A. No. 25 activities in the shops where there was still 25 Q. Do you have any opinion with respect : Page 135 Page 137 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct : 2 some asbestos materials. 2 to any of the testimony that they rendered? i 3 Q. I'm asking what you recollect doing 3 A. With regard to what? 4 with respect to asbestos, not what may have been 4 Q. Anything. ; 5 done, okay? 5 MR. SPEZIALI: We're not going to ask 6 So do you recollect doing asbestos 6 her to address the specific Plaintiffs 7 air sampling when there was some kind of 7 testimony. 8 re-patching going on? 8 MR. KRISTAL: Good. Then we can move 9 A. As I said, because of the different 9 on. 10 types of work that's done on a ship when it's in 10 Q. You got your Master's of Science 11 a shipyard, it's in for repair and renovation, 11 degree in 1969 from Harvard University, right? 12 yes, I recall having done some work while they 12 A. Yes. 13 were re-patching while they were possibly 13 Q. Did you have to write a thesis? 14 disturbing. That's what my job was, to test the 14 A. No. 15 air and to get the measurements and make 15 Q. What did that program involve, how 16 recommendations. 16 many credits? ; 17 Q. And are you saying that the Navy was 17 A. I don't remember the number of 18 using asbestos-containing products to re-patch 18 credits, but two full years of school, and it 19 an area on the ship? 19 was two full years of multi-disciplinary 20 A. I didn't mean to imply that, no. When 20 training in environmental health science, 21 the ship comes in for certain types of repair 21 environmental health, epidemiological, 22 and renovation, when a ship comes in, certain 22 biostatistics, legal aspects, multi-disciplinary 23 areas may possibly be disturbed, and, so, in 23 program in industrial hygiene, and it was two 24 re-patching it, there may have been areas of 24 full years. 25 still asbestos-containing materials in the 25 Q. And you became a certified industrial PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 35 (Pages 134 to 137) Page 138 Page 140 ' 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 hygienist in air pollution aspects and the 3 comprehensive aspects of industrial hygiene in 2 A. I think that the Master's degree 3 counted for a certain amount of experience. It 4 1976? 4 might have been applicable to, I don't know, I 5 A. Yes. 5 don't recall. It goes back a few years. 6 Q. What qualifies one to take --strike 7 that. 8 Is there a test that you take to 6 Q. What did you do for the ILO? 7 A. When I was at the ILO, that's the 8 International Labor Office in Geneva, 9 become a certified industrial hygienist? 10 A. Yes, there is. There's a very 11 exacting test. When I took it, there were two 12 full days of testing. It's my understanding now 13 people only take one full day of testing, but, 14 when I took it there were two full days of tests 15 that you had to take, but, before you're allowed 16 to sit for the test you had to meet minimum 17 requirements such as schooling, practical 18 experience and sit for the exam. 19 Q. What schooling did you need? 20 A. You needed, and this is going back a 21 little in time, but, you needed a minimum of a 22 Bachelor of Science degree in science, and, as I 23 recall, five years experience in the field 24 before you could sit for the test, as well as a 25 recommendation by somebody who was also a 9 Switzerland, I was hired to, my total title was 10 specialist --wait. My title was industrial 11 hygiene official. I was hired under a short-term 12 contract. I took an approved leave of absence 13 from the EPA in Boston. I went to Geneva. I was 14 hired to write what was called the Model Code of \ 15 Industrial Hygiene Regulations pulling together 16 all of the state-of-the-art industrial hygiene 17 regulations throughout the world so if a country 18 were to develop an OSHA type program they could 19 use this as enabling legislation. 20 Q. When in '75 did you do that? 21 A. I did that from about July through 22 December of 1975. 23 Q. And when in '71 did you start at GE, 24 when in 1970? 25 A. I started in July of 1971. Page 139 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 certified industrial hygienist at the time. 3 Q. Five years experience in what field? 4 A. That would be related to industrial 5 hygiene and/or air pollution. I got both 6 certifications. 7 Q. And when you say five years 8 experience in a field related to industrial 9 hygiene, for example, did your time when you 10 were an instructor in public health at Yale for 11 two years count in that five years? 12 A. Yes, that was counted by the American 13 Board of Industrial Hygienists, yes. 14 Q. And when you worked for the EPA as a 15 research and development program specialist that 16 counted in your time? 17 A. According to the board, yes, they 18 looked at all my background experience and 19 determined I was eligible to sit. 20 Q. So having or not having a Master's 21 degree meant nothing in terms of sitting for the 22 CIH exam? 23 A. I don't think it means nothing. 24 Q. Well, it may mean you could have a 25 better pass rate, but it wasn't a requirement? Page 141 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. When did you leave GE? 3 A. February of 1972. 4 Q. Why did you leave GE? 5 A. I left GE because the travel became 6 veiy excessive. When I was hired, there were 7 seven plants that were supposed to be in our 8 division. Our vice president got promoted and 9 took his whole staff with him and we ended up 10 with 44 plants in our group and the travel just 11 became very excessive. 12 Q. You worked as an industrial hygienist 13 for six months? 14 A. I was there for seven months. As it 15 turned out, it was when OSHA first came in. It 16 was a very opportune time. It was particularly 17 relevant to what I'm doing now. 18 Q. And what were your responsibilities 19 at GE for the seven-month period you were there? 20 A. My responsibilities at GE were to do 21 industrial hygiene and environmental control, 22 and, essentially what I did is, I went around, I 23 went to at least 20 to 30 company locations. Our 24 plants were located in the Northeast and 25 throughout the central United States, and 1 36 (Pages 138 to 141) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 142 Page 144 5 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct : 2 would do industrial hygiene surveys, walk 2 yes, I had responsibility for 44 GE locations, l 3 through surveys, sometimes monitoring of a 3 and, then, as I said, I had, I reported to J 4 different nature and make recommendations and 4 management, and I also had dotted line reporting 5 provide basically as a consultant inside the 5 through a medical physician with whom, of 6 company to GE, and, again, that's when EPA and 6 course, I consulted with on a frequent basis. 7 OSHA first, you know, came into effect. 7 Q. What were all these other GE 8 Q. And you list here General Electric 8 industrial hygienists doing if you had 9 Corporation, Bridgeport, Connecticut. Were you 9 responsibility for 44 plants? 10 stationed in Bridgeport? 10 A. Well, GE has hundreds and hundreds of 11 A. Our office was physically located in 11 plants throughout the country, and, there are 12 Bridgeport, but the plants were all over. 12 certainly large plants of long-standing that had 13 Q. How many industrial hygienists were 13 their own industrial hygiene people, but, 14 at GE at that time? 14 throughout my travels I met industrial hygiene 15 A. I don't know how many. I know that 15 safety and medical people almost everywhere I 16 there were many and GE has been on the forefront 16 went throughout GE. 1 17 of health and safety and they had many 17 Q. How many GE industrial hygienists ; 18 industrial hygienists throughout many of the 18 were there approximately when you were there? ; 19 facilities I visited and throughout other 19 A. My contact, I met many at the annual 20 locations of the country because I had an 20 health conference, and, I've certainly kept up 21 opportunity to attend one of the annual medical 21 with them. But as far as people I was more 22 conferences at GE while I was there. They also 22 familiar with in my areas, that would be in the ; 23 had many occupational physicians in many 23 Northeast and the Central states. I don't want 24 locations, so there were many. 24 to guess, but I'd give you an estimate of maybe ; 25 Q. Is it fair to say you were one of the 25 15 or so. And that's just for a part of the i Page 143 Page 145 : 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 lowest folks on the totem pole? 2 countiy that I was familiar with. 3 A. I don't know what you mean by that. 3 Q. Again, without holding you to an : 4 Q. Well, you started at GE in July of 4 exact number, in terms of the total number of ( 5 '71. You said there were many industrial 5 industrial hygienists, are you talking 50,100, 6 hygienists and many occupational medicine 6 500 for GE during the time period you were 7 physicians, or whatever you just said. It would 7 there? 8 show you were not a senior person, right? 8 A. I don't know. 9 A. I was a newcomer, but I was certainly 9 Q. I'm just asking you for your best 10 highly welcomed and actually made many 10 estimate in terms of orders of magnitude? 11 professional friendships with the industrial 11 MR. SPEZIALI: Let me object. You're 12 hygiene medical people that I kept up with until 12 asking for a guess. 13 very recently. So it was a very exciting time. 13 Q. You were at this meeting? 14 Q. How many industrial hygienists at GE 14 A. Not eveiybody came. I was in the 15 were above you? 15 meetings with a lot of them and a lot of medical 16 A. Well, in my group I was the only 16 people. 17 one at the time, and that group was the 44 17 Q. And approximately how many people 18 plants. I worked with the management people, 18 were at that meeting? 19 and, then, I also worked with a medical 19 A. I don't recall. 20 physician. 20 Q. Okay. Is there any industrial 21 Q. Let me see if I'm understanding. 21 hygienist that you know of at GE that spent less 22 You're saying that you were in a group that 22 time at GE than you did? 23 consisted of, your group had responsibility for 23 A. You mean less time? 24 44 GE plants? 24 Q. Less than seven months. 25 A. The way we were organizationally, 25 A. Less than seven months, I don't know. PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 37 (Pages 142 to 145) Page 146 Page 148 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Many o f the people who I met there back in the 2 Q. Anybody else? 3 seventies I ended up talking to quite recently 3 A. There were some other people, a 4 and they stayed with the company 40 years, a 4 gentleman named Vito Sclerito (phonetic). 5 long time. 5 Q. When you say "some other people," you 6 Q. There are GE industrial hygienists 6 mentioned in the context o f meeting and speaking 7 that are alive who you've spoken to recently who 7 with the current corporate industrial hygienist 8 have been at GE for decades? 8 that you had met and spoken with other GE 9 A. Yes, there are GE hygienists who have 9 industrial hygienists. So one of those is Mark 10 been with the company for decades and some who 10 Strife? 11 are retired who have been with the company for 12 decades. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Anybody else? 13 Q. And some who are not retired? 14 A. Yes. 13 A. The corporate industrial hygienist's 14 name is Kurt Kruger (phonetic), and he's the 15 Q. And on what occasion did you get 15 gentleman that I was referring to before. 16 together and speak to these former GE industrial 16 Q. Kurt Kruger? 17 hygienists who had been at GE for decades? 17 A. Kurt Kruger. 18 A. Well, over the years I was very 18 Q. Okay. When did you last speak to Kurt 19 active in the American Industrial Hygiene 19 Kruger? 20 Association and attended our annual conferences, 20 A. I met with Kurt around Januaiy or so 21 and, over the years I would just see the 21 of this year. 22 industrial hygienists at the various meetings 22 Q. Did it have anything to do with your 23 for over 20,25 years, talk to them, and, most 23 work that you were doing with respect to GE in 24 recently, I had the opportunity to meet with the 24 this case or generally? 25 corporate industrial hygienist for General 25 A. Oh, it had to do with my work in Page 147 Page 149 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Electric and many o f the other, some o f the 2 general for GE, yes. 3 other industrial hygienists who are currently 3 Q. Other than asbestos litigation, what 4 with the company. 4 other work are you doing generally for GE? 5 Q. And who is the corporate industrial 5 A. You asked in your last question was 6 hygienist for GE currently? 6 it referring to these cases or for my work with 7 A. I'm sorry. I don't remember his name 7 GE generally. That's how I answered that. 8 right now. It will come back to me. 8 Q. Right. 9 Q. Okay. It's a man, I take it? 9 A. Meaning, that it's for my general 10 A. It's a gentleman, yes. 10 work with GE. 11 Q. And you met with him and have spoken 11 Q. Which is limited solely to being 12 with him recently? 12 retained for asbestos litigation? 13 A. Yes. 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. How many decades has he been with GE? 14 Q. In other words, you're not doing 15 A. He's new to the company. I don't know 15 something - 16 how many years. I don't think it's a decade. 16 A. I'd say yes, right, with regard to 17 Q. Certainly more than you, he's been at 17 asbestos. 18 GE as an industrial hygienist longer than you 18 Q. With regard to asbestos litigation. 19 had been at GE? 19 What I mean is, you're not consulting with GE 20 A. That's my understanding. 20 generally as an industrial hygienist now on any 21 Q. And the other GE industrial 21 subject other than asbestos litigation? 22 hygienists you've spoken to recently, can you 22 A. I'm not a lawyer. I sit here as an 23 give me their names? 23 industrial hygienist. So my understanding is I 24 A. I've spoken to an industrial 24 consult on the general subject of asbestos. 25 hygienist whose name is Mark Strife (phonetic). 25 Whether it's all related to litigation, I don't PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 38 (Pages 146 to 149) Page 150 Page 152 j 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 know. 2 helpful. He was able to describe the corporate : 3 Q. Well, what lawyers have you discussed 3 set up in terms of safety and environmental 4 anything about GE with other than Mr. Speziali 4 throughout the company and also to relate that 5 and whoever else you mentioned, Mr. Kapshandy. 5 he had tried to locate some records going back 6 Who else? 6 over the years and could give me an update or 7 A. What other lawyers have I spoken to? 7 briefing on that kind of information. 8 Q. Yes. 8 Q. Okay. Who else was present when you ; 9 A. AtGE? 9 met with Mr. Kruger? 10 Q. Yes. 10 A. When I met with Mr. Kruger, Mr. 11 A. One attorney, his name is Henry King, 11 Kapshandy was there and there was some, it was a 12 and, I'm sorry, the name will come back to me. 12 former GE physician present, a gentleman named 13 Q. Okay. Have you billed GE for any work 13 Steve Hampton who's been with the company almost 14 that you've done that is not related to asbestos 14 50 years as far as safety, and some other GE 15 litigation? 15 attorneys, I think, were present. 16 A. Again, I'm not a lawyer. As far as I 16 Q. And where was this meeting? 17 know I'm working on asbestos and GE's history 17 A. It was in Fairfield, Connecticut. 18 and knowledge. If it's all related to 18 Q. Where? 19 litigation, it is. If it's not wholly, I don't 19 A. At GE corporate headquarters. 20 know. I'm just giving you my best answer. 20 Q. And I take it you felt this meeting 21 Q. Other than the project that you've 21 with these GE employees and lawyers for GE was 22 been working on that you're testifying here 22 somewhat important to your work in this case? 23 today about, you're not doing any other work for 23 A. I think Mr. Kruger was very helpful 24 GE; is that fair to say? 24 and the other people in providing background and 25 A. Yes. 25 history going back over the safety and health Page 151 Page 153 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. It's all related to asbestos 2 activities throughout the history of General 3 litigation? 3 Electric. They've been very active and involved 4 A. That's what you just said. 4 and on the forefront of health and safety. 5 Q. Right. You don't know whether that's 5 Q. Was this an interview that you were 6 all related to asbestos litigation or not? 6 conducting? Tell me the format of the meeting 7 A. I'm trying to answer your question 7 whereby you were getting information from Mr. 8 wholly and truthfully. As far as I know, it's 8 Kruger, the former GE physician and Mr. Hampton 9 all related to asbestos. I don't know whether it 9 and any other lawyers? 10 all has to do with litigation. 10 A. There might have been other people 11 Q. Well, what else do you think it has 11 present. That's what I'm remembering right now. 12 to do with? 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. General background on GE, their 13 A. I would say it's a conversation, 14 history with asbestos. 14 interview type of discussion and I was free to 15 Q. For purposes of some GE museum or 15 ask any questions and I did. 16 archives or related to litigation? 16 Q. Okay. Was Mr. Hobson there, David 17 A. Most likely it's related to 17 Hobson? 18 litigation, but, again, I don't know all the ins 18 A. No. 19 and outs. 19 Q. Was Dr. Betts there? 20 Q. What did you speak to Mr. Kruger 20 A. No. 21 about with respect to your work on the GE 21 Q. Did you take notes? 22 asbestos project, whether it relates to 23 litigation or not? 24 A. Well, in general, Mr. Kruger, who's a 22 A. I took some notes. 23 Q. What did you do with those notes? 24 A. Well, what I do is, I write them into 25 certified industrial hygienist, was very 25 a listing of different people that I've spoken PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 39 (Pages 150 to 153) Page 154 Page 156 ; 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 to, and, then I, after I'm finished with them, I 2 other words, such and such a date met with so 3 get rid o f them. 3 and so and so and so and substances of what was 4 Q. So you took notes in longhand, or on 4 spoken and another dates and met with so and so? 5 a laptop or how? 5 A. Yes, I have it written in 6 A. Longhand. 6 chronological order. 7 Q. On sheets of paper, I take it? 7 Q. Is it stored on a computer or hard 8 A. Yes. 8 copy or what? 9 Q. And then you did what with these 9 A. It's hard copy. 10 notes? 10 Q. And where physically do you keep it? 11 A. What I did, you know, I had an 11 Is it in a folder? Is in a drawer? 12 opportunity to speak to many people throughout the 12 A. Physically right now I think it's on 13 course of this project, and I consolidated my 13 a table. 14 notes and wrote things down. 14 Q. I know. In the normal course of your 15 Q. Okay. When you say consolidated 15 business -- 16 notes, did you write like a memo putting, you 16 A. In the course of my business? 17 know, everything together? 17 Q. --Do you keep it in a file cabinet 18 A. I keep a listing of the people that I 18 under GE? What do you do with this? 19 have spoken to and the places that I've gone 19 A. I just have it as a document. 20 with regard to the general project that I'm 20 Q. A running document. Okay. How many 21 doing for GE on history. 21 pages is it, approximately? 22 Q. Okay. 22 A. All together with an attachment about 23 A. In areas of asbestos over time. 23 12,14 pages perhaps. 24 Q. Where is said listing? 24 Q. Does it contain in part information 25 A. I have a copy of the listing. 25 that you're relying on for your opinions in this Page 155 Page 157 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. Good. I'd like to see it. 3 MR. KRISTAL: Do you have it? 4 MR. KAPSHANDY: No. 5 MR. KRISTAL: I can't have it? 6 MR. KAPSHANDY: I didn't say you 7 couldn't have it. She wasn't asked to bring 8 it. She said past tense. We could get it. 9 MR. KRISTAL: All right. Thank you. 10 Q. Is there any substance in this 11 listing? By that I mean, other than names and 12 when you spoke to people? There must have been 13 notes on substantive information, right? 14 A. I hope so, yes. 15 Q. And that's in this listing? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Okay. Is there any other document by 18 any other name whereby you've incorporated any 19 of your notes other than this listing? 20 A. No. 21 Q. And would the listing help you recall 22 who it was that you spoke to for the people that 23 you don't remember? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Okay. And is it a chronology, in 2 case, in these cases? 3 A. I'd say that it certainly, yes, it's 4 giving me a background about the long history of 5 health and safety at GE and the program that 6 they've had for so many years, sure, yes. 7 Q. Other than this meeting January 4th 8 with the folks that you mentioned and the prior 9 meeting September 3rd, have there been other 10 meetings with other GE folks between September 11 3rd and today wherein you were asking questions 12 and speaking to people about the history of GE 13 with respect to the safety and health issues? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. How many meetings have you had? 16 A. How many meetings have I had with 17 safety and health people? 18 Q. Yes, from GE currently or formally in 19 which you were getting information from them 20 which is the subject of your testimony? 21 A. I have to refer to the list, but, and 22 I don't want to guess, but I'd estimate 20 or 23 so, 25. 24 Q. Twenty or 25 meetings? I just want to 25 make sure you're not answering number of 40 (Pages 154 to 157) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 158 Page 160 ;3 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 people. 2 of those claims for asbestos since that time ? 3 A. Well, if you were counting each 3 period. ; 4 person as a meeting. 4 Q. So GE as far as you know had no prior i 5 Q. We have about ten people in this 5 records, workers' comp records? ! 6 room. If we were meeting, this is one meeting. 6 A. It was my understanding that GE did f 7 I'm asking you how many meetings you had? 7 have, before the computer program, they had a 8 A. I'm trying to explain. If I met with a 8 card file that was kept by their administrator, ! 9 person, that was a meeting. If I met with 9 their third-party administrator, and there were 10 another person not in the same room, that was a 10 cards going back to the forties and fifties up ( 11 separate meeting. 11 through the eighties. There were tens of ; 12 Q. Right. 12 thousands of these cards, and, so, there was a i 13 A. So I'm estimating. Some people I met 13 program that was in existence before the 14 with more than once. I don't want to guess. I'd 14 computerized system. ? 15 say 25. 15 Q. Okay. Have you seen any of those j 16 Q. In order to answer accurately you 16 records with respect to claims of i 17 would need, in fairness, to look at this list? 17 asbestos-related disease brought by GE workers? 3 18 A. Yes. 18 A. Yes, I've seen the records going S 19 Q. Okay. You had mentioned with respect 19 back, again, from the card file going back to j 20 to the one meeting on January 4th in which Mr. 20 the forties or fifties up to the eighties, and I 5 21 Kruger was present that he was going to try to 21 have seen them, yes. ? 22 locate some records of some sort? 22 Q. What is the earliest claim that ; 23 A. No. I didn't say January 4th. 23 you've been able to see brought by a GE employee ] 24 Q. I'm sorry. 24 for an asbestos-related disease? 5 25 A. I said January or so. 25 A. Well, the earliest claim I saw was in i Page 159 Page 161 ; 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct s 2 Q. I meant January '04.1apologize. 2 1971. : 3 A. Okay. 3 Q. What was the nature of the i 4 Q. The meeting you had in January of 4 allegation? :5 5 2004 in which you mentioned Mr. Kruger was going 5 A. I don't know what you mean by s 6 to try to locate some records, did he locate 6 "allegation." It appeared that -- ' 7 records? 7 Q. Does the record contain, the record ) 8 A. Well, of a nature, yes. GE is a 8 that you're talking about contain what it was ; 9 highly decentralized company. It was 9 that the claimant was claiming? 5 10 incorporated in the late 1890's and has bought 10 A. Yes. What it says on the card for the : 11 and sold hundreds if not thousands of businesses 11 case in 1971 is for asbestosis. 12 all over, and, he attempted to look for records, 12 Q. And does it say what the person's 13 but, basically, what he found is that records 13 employment was? 14 are kept at the local businesses that had 14 A. On the card it doesn't say what the 15 conducted the business. But I do recall that he 15 person's employment was, no. ! 16 had run some sort of a general search on a 16 Q. Were you able to ascertain that from 5 17 computerized workers' compensation program and 17 any other source? | 18 had run something like that and he was, that was 18 A. I was not able to do that with ' 19 all he was able to locate. 19 certainty, no. 20 Q. Okay. You're talking about he was 20 Q. Okay. How about with any level of ? 21 looking for, if I'm understanding you, claims of 21 finding out any information? 22 asbestos-related disease by GE workers 22 A. My looking at the records it just 23 historically in part? 24 A. The computer program only went back 23 isn't clear to me what the gentleman was doing. 24 Q. What plant was the person working in? 25 to about 1990. So it would have been a listing 25 A. He was in Fitchburg, Massachusetts. ; PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 41 (Pages 158 to 161) Page 162 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. Working in the turbine plant? 3 A. I don't think turbines were made in 4 Fitchburg, so, again, I don't know what the 5 gentleman was doing. 6 Q. Do you know what was being 7 manufactured at Fitchburg at the location where 8 the gentleman worked by GE? 9 A. No, I don't remember. 10 Q. Is it fair to say asbestos was being 11 used somewhere in that plant? 12 A. We don't know, we don't know what he 13 was doing. We know there were shipyards in the 14 area he may have worked for. We don't know what 15 the gentleman was doing before GE, how long he 16 had been there. It's not clear. 17 Q. I'm talking about your research into 18 that particular claim. The person must have 19 claimed some asbestos exposure at GE; is it fair 20 to say? I'm not saying it's correct or not | 21 correct. I'm just asking it wouldn't be, there 22 wouldn't be a record unless there was a claim 123 against GE? 24 A. All I know is what's on his little i25 card. They were like three-by-five cards. It Page 164 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct to say? A. Yes. Q. Is there anything else contained in the listings document other than a summary of your notes from meetings that you had, in other words, if you were reading a document and you 3 took notes on it or you were looking at a workers' comp index card and investigating that 10 case and took notes on it, where would those 1 notes be? 2 A. I don't keep notes. What 1have is in 3 that listing. 4 Q. Okay. So there's no other document in 5 which you summarize your notes and then threw them away? 7 A. No, there's no other document. 8 Q. It's not a trick question. I'm just 9 trying to find out. 20 A. I'm trying to answer. No. 21 Q. Okay. Are you saying you didn't take 22 notes except when you were at meetings on any of 23 the work that you did? 24 A. Well, I took notes when I was talking 25 to people which I told you I incorporated into Page 163 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 says the person's name and where he worked and 3 it says asbestosis. 4 Q. And did you do any other research 5 into that claim, in other words, ask people 6 about it, ask people to ask people about it? 7 A. Yes, I recall that I did, and I, I 8 don't recall having come up with any more 9 definitive information about this case. 10 Q. Whatever information you came up with 11 on that particular case, would that have been in 12 the listing of documents you referenced? 13 A. I don't think so, no. 14 Q. Okay. Is there a separate note that 15 you took on things that you did for this 16 particular project for GE not involving meetings i 17 with people that would be reflected in this 18 listing? 119 A. That would not be involved in the 20 listings? 21 Q. Let me try to clarify. My 22 understanding of the listing document, this 12 23 or 13 page or however long page document, is 24 that it's a chronological summary of your notes 25 of various meetings that you had; is that fair Page 165 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 my listings, and, occasionally, I keep notes on 3 to-do items, and, then, when I finish with them 4 I scratch them off and I discard them. So those 5 are the kind of notes I keep. 6 Q. And when you're doing the task of the 7 to-do notes you don't take notes at all, in 8 other words, at some point you physically had an 9 index card with a 1971 workers' comp claim for 10 asbestosis out of Fitchburg, Massachusetts? 11 A. I've seen a copy of it, yes. 12 Q. My question is, did you take notes 13 about that? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Did you take notes when you read any 16 articles? 17 A. No. 18 Q. And you have no notes at all, zero, 19 for anything other than the conversations you've 20 had with people? 21 A. And to-do notes which I mentioned to 22 you. 23 Q. Right. 24 A. No. 25 Q. Okay. Other than Mr. Kruger locating 42 (Pages 162 to 165) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 166 Page 168 j I Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct i 2 or attempting to locate the various workers' 2 hygienist? s 3 comp documents were there any other records he 3 A. He was a, his specialty was safety ; 4 provided you or was looking for? 4 management. He's written many editions of a book J 5 A. Well, I think he provided some recent 5 called "Safety Management." In fact, five < 6 documents on general, these were current GE 6 editions. He was the head person at GE for ; 7 corporate policies relating to their current 7 safety industrial hygiene and medical from the 8 environmental programs on asbestos and asbestos 8 mid-fifties through the sixties. 1 9 management. So other than the very recent type 9 Q. And whatever the substance of your i 10 documents and this listing, that's what he 10 conversations were with him would be contained 11 provided me. 11 in the listings? i 12 Q. Okay. And the recent type documents 12 A. Yes. ; 13 with the current policies, was that something 13 Q. Okay. Anyone else you remember? :? 14 that in any way is informing your opinion in 14 A. I spoke to many industrial hygienists | 15 this case? 15 who I met when I was with the company and kept 16 A. Well, I think it shows it's part of 16 up with throughout the years at the American ; 17 the continuum. GE has been on the forefront of 17 Industrial Hygiene Association meetings. I have 18 health and safety for over 80 years, and it just 18 spoken to on a few occasions two of the other J 19 shows their, currently what their programs are, 19 gentlemen who worked at Bridgeport, a certified ; 20 which is very impressive. 20 industrial hygienist named Leo Feliu who was i 21 Q. Okay. Other than Mr. Kruger, Mr. 21 with the company in the sixties, a certified ' 22 Hampton, the GE physician who, the former GE 22 industrial hygienist Dale Culp, C-U-L-P. He was ;l 23 physician whose name you don't recall, do you 23 a student of mine at Yale, and, when I left I ; 24 recall the names of any other people you met 24 referred him and he took my job at GE in 25 that you interviewed from GE who were current or 25 Bridgeport. I have spoken to him on a couple of : Page 167 Page 169 : 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct i 2 former GE employees regarding this subject? 2 occasions recently, and then there were many ; 3 A. I did remember the physician from the 3 others. ? 4 meeting in Fairfield, doctor Dennis Stenpin, 4 Q. Others from the, how far back were ; 5 S-T-E-N-P-I-N. And your question was other 5 some of the people? Obviously, Dr. Grimaldi goes ? 6 people? 6 back I think you said to the mid-sixties? 7 Q. Yes. 7 A. Dr. Grimaldi goes back to the 8 A. Not at that meeting, but in general? 8 fifties. There's a gentleman named Arnold Rathje 9 Q. Yes. 9 who's a certified industrial hygienist. He was 10 A. I had the opportunity to meet and 10 in Cleveland but serviced a lot of locations. I ; 11 speak with on many occasions a Dr. Jack Grimaldi 11 kept up with him over the years. He goes back to 12 who was the head of safety and industrial 12 the 1950s. 13 hygiene and environmental for GE going back to 13 Q. Can you spell his name? We need to ; 14 the 1950s through the sixties, and, I met with 14 get an accurate record. 15 Dr. Grimaldi twice and I've spoken to him on the 15 A. R-A-T-H-J-E. The gentleman I 16 phone on several occasions. 16 mentioned to you before, Steve Hampton, he goes 17 Q. Could you spell that last name for 17 back to about 1950, as well, and he was a 18 us? 18 chemist involved in a lot of safety activity 19 A. Sure. G-R-I-M-A-L-D-I. 19 over the years, but there were many other 20 Q. Was it a doctor? 20 people. 21 A. Yes, he's a Ph.D., Dr. Jack Grimaldi. 21 Q. Were these meetings or interviews 22 Q. And is he currently with GE or former 22 combinations with and without GE attorneys 23 GE? 24 A. He's former GE. He's retired. 23 there, or were they all with GE attorneys in 24 terms of litigation? 25 Q. Okay. And he was an industrial 25 A. No. I was free, I did a lot of the PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 43 (Pages 166 to 169) Page 170 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 2 interviews on my own. A lot of the interviews 2 3 with people were over the phone. So it was just 3 4 me talking to the people, and, Dr. Grimaldi I 4 5 met with him at length one time alone and spoke 5 6 with him many times alone over the phone. So I'd 6 7 say for the most part it was alone. 7 8 Q. Okay. You mentioned the workers' comp 8 9 records. You mentioned some other documents, the 9 10 recent policies. We had the Alice Hamilton 10 11 documents and we'll mark them in a little while. 11 12 Any other categories of documents that you have 12 13 obtained and reviewed pursuant to your work in 13 14 these cases and generally with respect to GE and 14 15 asbestos, in other words, were you shown maybe 15 16 drawings from GE, or technical manuals or any 16 17 kind of GE documents other than what you have 17 18 mentioned and the Alice Hamilton series from the 18 19 1920s? 19 20 A. Are we talking in general or 20 21 specifically with regard to this? I missed that. 21 22 Q. We're talking about anything. 22 23 MR. SPEZIALI: In other words, in 23 24 these cases, Jerry, or other projects she's 24 25 worked on? 25 Page 172 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct sometime. She's been offered, and nobody has taken her up on it, because she has knowledge of corporate documents. And because, frankly, I don't know exactly how far plaintiffs in these cases are going to go, I don't know what subjects. I know about Alice Hamilton. I don't know about others. So I felt the best thing to do is present her as an expert here on industrial hygiene with the idea that we would try to address specific corporate documents if they come up, and, I know only about Alice Hamilton right now. I hope that clarifies a little bit. So the project really was not with respect to these cases. MR. KRISTAL: If I'm understanding, Ms. Drucker is not being produced here as the most knowledgable person about General Electric hygiene or otherwise, she's being produced as an expert? MR. SPEZIALI: She's being produced in these cases as an expert in industrial hygiene, particularly as to published Page 171 Page 173 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 MR. KRISTAL: That's what I'm not 2 literature and some o f the things Dr. Betts 3 understanding. 3 has showed her as to the Navy, but she's 4 MR. SPEZIALI: Yes. 4 going to address Alice Hamilton because 5 Q. My understanding of the project 5 that's sort of very published and very 6 you've been working on is GE historical 6 public. 7 knowledge of asbestos, one general project that 7 MR. KRISTAL: Okay. 8 happens to relate to these cases? 8 (Whereupon, a discussion is held off 9 MR. SPEZIALI: Let me clarify, Jerry. 9 the record.) 10 GE finds itself in a situation, and it's 10 MR. SPEZIALI: Let me mention one more 11 not a secret, it's in other cases around 11 thing. Without question if documents come 12 the country, obviously, and we find ourself 12 in evidence, GE specific corporate 13 in a situation where it's a big company and 13 documents come into evidence that I feel 14 an old company and its involvement with 14 need to be addressed through a GE witness I 15 asbestos is relevant in lots of different 15 will. I know it doesn't help you for 16 ways throughout the country. GE did not up 16 today's deposition. So I can only be as 17 until recently have a 30B6 witness on the 17 fair as I can be. I'm going to tell you in 18 general subject what do you know about 18 advance I may have her address it. You do 19 asbestos? They didn't have that. 19 what you need to do. If you need more 20 And they are not necessarily for the 20 depositions. I don't know what you're 21 purpose of New York litigation, but there 21 putting in. I don't know your case in 22 are places in the country we are required 22 chief. 23 to produce a witness. She was hired for 23 I have deposed Dr. Kauzman (phonetic) 24 that purpose. She has yet to testify, but 24 on three or four occasions, and, as far as 25 she will be testifying in the future 25 I can tell he has nothing bad to say about PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 44 (Pages 170 to 173) Page 174 Page 176 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct o 2 GE. But he's your witness. Perhaps he will 2 breadth of the spectrum as much as I do, but for : 3 have something different to say some day 3 what he did. i 4 and I need to address it. That's the best I 4 Q. And your knowledge and your 5 can do. I'm shooting in the dark. 6 MR. KRISTAL: Gotcha. 7 Q. Is it fair to say Dr. Grimaldi has 8 more knowledge about GE industrial hygiene than 9 you do, having been there for a long time? 10 A. Well, Dr. Grimaldi certainly in his 11 time period is rich with information or history 12 of GE in the fifties and sixties, of course. 13 Q. So for that time period he certainly 14 has more knowledge than you? 15 A. For that time period he has a lot of 16 information to share, yes. 17 Q. I'm talking about compared to you he 18 has more knowledge on that subject in that time 19 period? 20 A. He certainly imparted a lot of good 5 understanding of GE's industrial hygiene program i 6 from your interviews of these people depends on i 7 how accurate their information is, correct? : 8 A. Well, you know, fortunately in this ; 9 project there have been a lot of cross checks. j 10 There have j ust been a lot of ways to cross ; 11 check information and various ways through 12 meetings with different people through documents } 13 that I had the opportunity to review through 14 thousands of industrial hygiene measurements and 5 15 books and other documents through visits through 5 16 going to the Radcliffe and Harvard Library. So 17 there have been a lot of cross checks of this * 18 project. It's an ongoing project, but... 19 Q. A work in progress. The thousands of 20 industrial hygiene surveys, what are you talking { 21 information to me. 22 Q. And Mr. Hampton also has more 23 knowledge for the time period he was with GE 24 than you do about GE industrial hygiene? 25 A. For the time and for what he did with 21 about? 22 A, As I said before, GE has been on the ; 23 forefront of health and safety and they handle 24 asbestos, as all substances that they handle, 25 responsibly at the time. There are thousands of Page 175 Page 177 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 the company, yes, he himself would personally 2 industrial hygiene, over 4,500 industrial hygiene 3 have more knowledge about that specifically with 3 samples that were taken on GE premises for 4 which he was involved. 4 asbestos going back to the 1950s through the 5 Q. What specifically and during what 5 1990s and I had the opportunity to study all 6 time period was he involved? 6 these samples. ; 7 A. Well, as I said, he was a chemist 7 Q. Okay. And that's why when I asked you 8 with the company from about 1950 through the 8 any other large categories of documents you 9 current time and worked on various projects, 9 didn't recall those 4,500 industrial hygiene 10 some of which related to asbestos. 10 studies, obviously, right? ^ 11 Q. Did they relate to asbestos and 11 A. You stopped the question and I didn't 12 industrial hygiene? 12 answer it. 13 A. Well, if we're talking about 13 MR. SPEZIALI: I interjected. 14 industrial hygiene being general safety and 14 Q. So I want to take broad categories. 15 health he's not an industrial hygienist or a 15 We have the ones on the record. You mentioned 16 certified industrial hygienist, but he's certainly a 16 these surveys, some of which go back to the ; 17 person very steeped in health and safety. I'm 17 1950s, and some pertain to asbestos? 18 sony. What was the question? 18 A. These 4,500 samples are all taken on 19 Q. Well, so then for that time period 19 the GE premises 1950s through 1990s. 20 1950s to the present as a chemist involved with 20 Q. What other documents in terms of 21 health and safety, although not an industrial 21 broad categories have you reviewed which you 22 hygienist, he knows more about the GE programs 22 believe you were getting from these people and 23 than you? 23 generally other documents? 24 A. He would know more about what he did. 24 A. Generally, as I said, there were 25 I haven't come across someone who knows the 25 cross checks in many ways. I reviewed general 45 (Pages 174 to 177) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 medical and scientific information over time Page 178 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 GE. Page 180 3 that I reviewed for context and I reviewed 4 answers to interrogatories prepared over time. I 5 met, as I told you, I met and spoke with many 6 people who had been with the company. 7 Q. I'm not talking about the meetings 8 which you were saying you looked at documents 9 that served as checks? 10 A. I'm getting there. I'm not done. 11 Q. I know. But I'm not interested in 3 A lot of the other information was 4 just general background scientific information 5 provided for context. I also attributed some of 6 the articles to that, I'd say, body of 7 literature of medical and scientific 8 information. 9 MR. KRISTAL: Why don't we mark this 10 as Exhibit 3. It's called "Asbestos Library 11 Catalog." 12 meetings because we already talked about. 13 A. I don't want to leave off anything. I 14 had the opportunity to review books and other 12 (Whereupon, Asbestos Library Catalog 13 is marked Plaintiffs Drucker Exhibit 3 For 14 Identification.) 15 documents prepared by the company, and that 15 Q. Is that the list you referred to 16 would have related to state-of-the-art 16 earlier today and just now? 17 information relating to asbestos at various 18 periods of time. 17 (Whereupon, the witness peruses the 18 document.) 19 Q. Okay. Anything else? 19 A. I think this is. 20 A. I mentioned the visits. I went to the 20 Q. It is or it isn't? 21 Harvard and Radcliffe libraries, visited company 21 A. This, it is my understanding, is a 22 locations, I searched the Bridgeport offices of 22 listing of Dr. Betts' information. 23 the former industrial hygienist, but, in 23 Q. Let me back up. This morning you said 24 general, I think we covered it. 24 you needed to look at a list to inform you as to 25 Q. When you did the search at the office 25 which other articles were involving Navy Page 179 Page 181 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 of the industrial hygienist, were there 2 knowledge in 1922 as an example. Is Exhibit 3 3 documents that you found that were not in the 3 the list you were talking about? 4 categories you mentioned that helped you form 4 A. That might have duplicates. It's not 5 your opinions in this case? 5 specifically the list that I had in mind. 6 A. Those documents would fall within the 6 Q. Okay. Then I will mark this Exhibit 7 broad categories I mentioned. 7 3, but, does your list that you have in mind 8 Q. Are there any other broad categories 8 have a title? 9 other than what you just mentioned in your last 9 A. I think it says something about 10 answer, books and other documents written by GE? 10 index. Other than that, I don't remember. 11 A. The industrial hygiene samples, the 11 Q. Do you have a copy somewhere of that 12 visits I met with various industrial hygienists, 12 list? 13 that's the broad categories. 13 A. Not with me, but yes. 14 Q. Okay. Medical and scientific 14 Q. Okay. I will request a copy of that 15 information over time, are you talking about GE 15 list, because there's no sense in using a list 16 internal medical and scientific information over 16 if it's not the list you're talking about. It 17 time or things that are on this list that 17 doesn't make sense to me, anyway. Does it make 18 hopefully we'll get to today, if not, whenever 18 sense to you to wait until we have the actual 19 we meet again? 19 list? 20 A. First of all, GE was not an asbestos 20 A. Yes. 21 company. They used very little asbestos on a very 21 Q. Okay. The two articles that you found 22 few product lines. A very small amount of those 2 2 that related specifically to GE and asbestos, 23 product lines ever contained asbestos. We found 23 were these from medical and scientific articles, 24 actually only two articles in the medical and 24 or newspaper articles, or what kind of articles? 25 scientific literature relating to asbestos at 25 A. I didn't say that they related to GE PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 46 (Pages 178 to 181) Page 182 Page 184 ; 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct ; 2 and asbestos. I said we found two articles on 2 put in an area from way back, and, other than : 3 asbestos at GE, meaning, it was GE in Bridgeport 3 him saying, you know, that his office had been ? 4 in the former offices of the industrial 4 there, we just started going through files and 5 hygienist who was there, Leo Feliu, who I told you 5 looking for things. 1 6 I spoke to a couple times recently. 6 Q. When you say they were files put in : 7 Q. In other words, somewhere in your 7 an area from way back, what do you mean? 8 search of GE documents you located two articles 8 A. That there were some records that had 9 that somebody had somewhere? 9 been kept on some industrial hygiene asbestos 10 A. Again, this wasn't an asbestos 10 surveys that had been conducted there, things 11 company. I don't know what you would expect to 11 relating to asbestos within that there were 12 find all these years after, but, yes, we were 12 these articles. 13 able to locate two articles and these were two 13 Q. Okay. And the location where Mr. 14 articles we found at Bridgeport. 14 Feliu was where you found these documents? 15 Q. And do you know the names of these 15 A. The location, the plant is in 16 articles? 16 Bridgeport, Connecticut. 17 A. Yes. 17 Q. The Answers to Interrogatories over 18 Q. Okay. What were they? 18 time, when was the earliest GE --strike that. 19 A. One was by Dr. Selikoff and one, and 19 You're talking about GE's Answers to 20 it was entitled "Asbestos exposure Smoking and 20 Interrogatories? 21 Neoplasia," and, my best recollection it's from 21 A. Yes, GE's Answers to Interrogatories. 22 1968. 22 Q. And do you have a set of those 23 Q. Right. 24 A. And another article was by Philip 23 somewhere? 24 A. Yes. 25 Interline (phonetic) and I don't recall the 25 Q. Okay. Page 183 Page 185 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 title, but it was from 1967. 2 MR. KRISTAL: I request copies of 3 Q. Do you have a belief as to when GE 3 those. 4 first came into possession of those documents, 4 MR. SPEZIALI: Again, Jerry, that's 5 in other words, you don't know if it was the day 5 not with respect to this case. 1mean, that 6 before you got there or 35 years ago? I'm being 6 is, again, you're confusing -- 7 a little facetious, but, do you have any idea 7 MR. KRISTAL: I don't think I'm 8 when GE first came into possession of those 9 articles? 8 confusing anything. 9 Q. Do the GE Answers to Interrogatories 10 A. No. But what I can say is when I was 10 help inform your opinion in these cases in terms 11 searching through the files they certainly 11 of what GE knew about the hazards of asbestos 12 looked old and it looked like it hadn't been 12 and when? 13 touched in a long time. I also spoke to Leo 13 MR. SPEZIALI: Again, she's not being 14 Feliu before I got there and he steered me on 14 offered for that purpose in this case. 15 what could you have. 15 MR. KRISTAL: Okay. 16 Q. Could you spell his last name? 16 A. I don't know what kind of thing you 17 A. F-E-L-I-U. 17 may ask me, so I don't know how to answer that 18 Q. And it was in Mr. Feliu's office you 18 in the absence of specific questions. I don't 19 found these two articles? 19 know what I can say, whether the interrogatories 20 A. In the area of Mr. Feliu's office, 20 would help or not. 21 yes. He was the industrial hygienist, or one of 21 Q. What information did you get from the 22 them at Bridgeport. 22 interrogatories that you felt was helpful? 23 Q. And were these articles in some file 23 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. Helpful as 24 or folder or somewhere where he directed you to? 24 to what? 25 A. As I recall, all the files were just 25 Q. Helpful as to any opinions you have. PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 47 (Pages 182 to 185) Page 186 Page 188 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 MR. SPEZIALI: In this case? 2 wasn't there. I have a degree, yes, of certainty 3 MR. KRISTAL: Yes. 3 that the health and safety professionals at GE 4 MR. SPEZIALI: She's not offering 4 going back to the early thirties would have been 5 opinions on that. 5 aware that high levels of exposure to asbestos 6 Q. What is the earliest year that you 6 dust can cause the fibrotic condition 7 believe GE knew about the hazards of asbestos? 7 asbestosis. 8 A. The health and safety professionals 8 Q. Is there a distinction in your mind 9 at GE would have been aware of the relevant 9 between were aware and would have been aware? 10 medical and scientific information relating to 10 A. Since I wasn't there, I can't really 11 the constituents of their products going back 11 say they were definitely aware because I wasn't 12 to, going back over time, and they would have 12 there. I think that what I've been able to 13 been aware of relevant NACs, PELs, TLVs from 13 review, what I've been able to get a feel for 14 1930 to, from the early thirties to the 14 over time from reviewing documents that I have a 15 mid-thirties I'd say that the health and safety 15 high degree of certainty that they would have 16 professionals at GE would have been aware that 16 been aware. 17 high levels of exposure to asbestos dust can 17 Q. Is your opinion about the Navy and 18 cause asbestosis. 18 its knowledge of asbestos that the Navy would 19 And, then in the person of Dr. Irving 19 have been aware or was aware of the hazards of 20 Sacs (phonetic) in GE Schenectady in 1951, as 20 asbestos as of 1922? 21 well as other authors at GE who published to GE 21 A. Well, according to one of the 22 and non-GE alike the state-of-the-art on 22 documents that is on one of these lists, it's my 23 asbestos as it was known at the time. In fact, 23 understanding that the Navy was aware in 1922 24 as it was known at the time all the way up 24 that high levels of dust could cause a fibrotic 25 through OSHA. 25 condition. Page 187 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. So in your opinion to a reasonable 3 degree of medical certainty General Electric as 4 a company in the early thirties to mid-thirties 5 was aware that high levels of asbestos exposure 6 caused asbestosis? 7 A. You said to a reasonable degree of 8 medical certainty. I'm not a doctor and not a 9 toxicologist. 10 Q. I apologize. 11 A. I'm a certified industrial hygienist. 12 Q. Let me rephrase the question. To a 13 reasonable degree of certainty, is it your 14 opinion that General Electric as a company was 15 aware in the 1930s to mid-1930s that high levels 16 of exposure to asbestos causes asbestosis? 17 A. Yes, from the early to mid-thirties 18 the health and safety professionals at GE would 19 have been aware that high levels of exposure to 20 asbestos dust causes asbestosis. 21 Q. Is there a difference between would 22 have been aware and were aware? I mean, if there 23 isn't, I don't know why you keep using different 24 language than I'm using. I'm using were aware. 25 A. I didn't mean to be confusing. I Page 189 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. So - 3 A. The term asbestos wasn't until later ; 4 that it could cause a fibrotic condition. It was 5 known that there were dusty lung, and the Navy 6 certainly knew that. 7 Q. And was Alice Hamilton a consultant 8 to GE in the 1930s and forties? 9 A. Yes, Alice Hamilton was a consultant 10 to GE in the 1920s and 1930s on safety, 11 industrial hygiene and medicine. 12 Q. Have you seen in the 1920s and 13 thirties conveyed to GE the fact that asbestos 14 to cause asbestosis? 15 A. I'm familiar with one survey that she 16 performed at one location in which she, one of 17 the doctors there had found a case of 18 asbestosis, conferred with her and they took 19 appropriate precautions. 20 Q. And the doctor you're talking about 21 was a GE doctor? 22 A. I don't know if he was a GE doctor. 23 From the document, it appears he was a GE 24 doctor. 25 Q. And that was a GE plant that she 48 (Pages 186 to 189) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 190 Page 192 J 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct t 2 surveyed? 2 went to Mr. Swote. !; 3 A. From what I've been able to determine 3 Q. If it didn't go to Mr. Swote, it went 4 in her survey reports, yes, that was a GE plant. 4 to somebody else involved in health and safety 5 Q. And she was called in at the request 5 at GE; is that fair to say? GE got the report } 6 of this GE doctor who had found this case of 6 from Dr. Hamilton. There's no question about 7 asbestosis? 7 that, is there? ; 8 A. That's not the way it reads. 8 A. From what I could determine GE got 9 Q. Okay. Tell me your understanding of 9 the report from Dr. Hamilton, at the time, acted ; 10 how it unfolded? 10 upon it, removed the man, put the other person 11 A. My understanding is that Alice 11 in an air line respirator and no more problems. i 12 Hamilton was amazing. Alice Hamilton was hired 12 Q. So GEknew as of 1934 that asbestos i 13 by the president of General Electric, his name 13 could cause asbestosis. Not would have known, | 14 was Gerard Swote (phonetic), to go through GE 14 they knew? 15 plants and do environmental health industrial 15 A. It was no secret at the time. 16 hygiene surveys at will. She was given a blank 16 Q. I'm just asking you the earliest date : 17 slate to go wherever she wanted. She wrote 17 that GE knew asbestos could cause asbestosis. So 18 reports directly to the president of GE and he, 18 is it your opinion to a reasonable degree of 19 in turn, made sure everything she recommended 19 certainty that GE knew asbestos could cause i 20 was done. 20 asbestosis in 1934? > 21 I in over 32 years as an industrial 21 A. Again, asbestos in high levels could 22 hygienist never heard of such an arrangement. It 22 cause asbestosis, yes, I would say it was known 23 was phenomenal at the time. It is still 23 in 1934. It was no secret it was known then. 24 something that is highly commendable, to say the 24 Q. Okay. And GE was informed in part by 25 least. Alice Hamilton was a consultant to GE. 25 Alice Hamilton as to how to reduce the incidence Page 191 Page 193 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 What was the question? 2 of asbestosis, how to deal with the problem, 3 Q. As part of her consultancy work and 3 right? ; 4 the reports, one of the reports involved 4 A. In part. 5 asbestosis; is that fair to say? 5 Q. Okay. And in part where else did they 6 A. Yes, one of the reports she wrote in 6 get information as to how to deal with the 7 over ten years of surveys throughout all GE 7 problem to avoid asbestos disease, you mean from 8 facilities found that there had been a case of 8 other internal industrial hygienists of their 9 asbestosis which was taken care of, and, as I 9 own, where did they get that information other 10 mentioned before, there was no other case that 10 than from Dr. Hamilton as to how to avoid the 11 had come to the company's attention until 1971 11 risk of asbestos? 12 over 40 years later. 12 A. They used hundreds of materials. 13 Q. Okay. That was going to be my 13 Q. I know that. I'mjust talking about 14 question. In what year was this Alice Hamilton 14 asbestos? 15 survey that discussed the asbestosis case done? 15 A. I want to bring this into context for 16 A. In this one particular instance this 16 you. If you look at all the reports she did and 17 was a report which I think is from 1934. 17 all the surveys she made, it seemed apparent 18 Q. Okay. 18 that GE facilities were aware in the twenties 19 A. There was a little question about the 19 and thirties that certain types of precautions 20 date on the paper. It appears to be 1934. 20 should be taken with various types, including 21 Q. And that report was sent to Mr. 21 asbestos. GE being on the forefront of health 22 Swote, the president of GE at the time? 22 and safety had measures to control dust and dust 23 A. Well, I don't have the document 23 asbestos exposure back to the twenties. 24 specifically, but, all the other reports appear 24 It's in her reports where she goes 25 to have gone to Mr. Swote, so I would assume it 25 from factory to factory and says there's PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 49 (Pages 190 to 193) Page 194 Page 196 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 ventilation there, people in respirators here, 2 context. I apologize if you think I'm being 3 people getting x-rays there. So it was known 3 nit-picky. 4 throughout the countiy that there were a lot of 4 A. GE health and safety professionals 5 safety and health measures to take for a variety 5 going back over the years were aware, and, this 6 of substances. 6 is a lot from what I know from reading in the 7 Q. And it was known by 1934 by GE how to 7 Alice Hamilton surveys, for over ten years were 8 handle asbestos in a manner that would reduce 8 aware that certain types of measures would be : 9 the risk of asbestos disease? 9 taken with various types of dust to control 10 A. You reduce the dusty exposure. I 10 exposures and prevent disease not only asbestos, 11 don't think it was a secret. Again, this was 11 but other potentially harmful material. Asbestos 12 part of their overall ongoing health and safety 12 was just one thing they use. And those measures 13 program at the time. Frankly, at the time the 13 would have included -- 14 big occupational disease was silicosis. 14 Q. Before you go on, is it would have 15 Q. Whether it was a secret or not, it's 15 included or included? 16 your opinion to a reasonable degree of certainty 16 A. Included. 17 that GE as of 1934 knew how to reduce the risk 17 Q. Okay. 18 of asbestos disease? 18 A. And based, again, based on what I've 19 A. Yes, I think in 1934 they knew, as 19 seen in Dr. Hamilton's surveys included exhaust 20 well as other sophisticated companies and other 20 ventilation, wetting methods, respirators, 21 sophisticated entities at the time. It wasn't a 21 medical surveillance, meaning x-rays. That's 22 secret. 22 what I recall. 23 Q. Could you tell me what measures were 23 Q. Okay. Was knowledge of the hazards of 24 known by GE to reduce the risk of asbestos 24 asbestos by the people who were handling the 25 disease in 1934? 25 asbestos an important part of reducing the Page 195 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. Asked and 3 answered. 4 Q. You started listing some of them, but 5 I want to make sure I get a comprehensive list? 6 MR. SPEZIALI: In context, we're 7 talking about at its facilities? Is that 8 what I understand the question to be? 9 MR. KRISTAL: The question is what it 10 is. 11 MR. SPEZIALI: All right. 12 A. GE being responsible handling 13 asbestos responsibly for various periods of 14 time, as they did all other substances. 15 Q. I'm talking 1934. I'm talking 16 asbestos. I'm talking about GE's knowledge of 17 what measures should be taken to reduce the risk 18 of asbestos disease? 19 A. GE health and safety professionals 20 would have been aware. 21 Q. I'm not asking would have been aware 22 now. I'm asking what you believe GE actually 23 knew? 24 A. I don't mean to -- 25 Q. It makes a difference in the legal Page 197 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 incidence of asbestos disease in 1934? 3 A. The health and safety professionals 4 at GE over the years devised methods so that 5 people could work safely with all substances, 6 including asbestos. So the health and safety 7 professionals were certainly aware and made the 8 recommendations so that people were projected. 9 Q. My question has to do with GE 10 knowledge of reducing the risk of asbestosis in 11 1934. Did GE know in 1934 that to reduce the 12 risk of asbestos disease exhaust ventilation was 13 one method to do that in your opinion to a 14 reasonable degree of certainty? 15 A. The question is to reduce asbestos 16 disease? 17 Q. Right. 18 A. Could you say the whole thing again? 19 Q. Sure. Is it your opinion to a 20 reasonable degree of medical certainty that in 21 1934 GE knew that exhaust ventilation was one 22 method to reduce the risk of asbestos disease? 23 A. I'd say by 1934 GE health and safety 24 professionals would have been aware that exhaust 25 ventilation was one type of measure that could PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 50 (Pages 194 to 197) Page 198 Page 200 ; 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct ? 2 be utilized to reduce exposure to any number of 2 MR. SPEZIALI: In its facilities? i 3 substances. Asbestos was used in very small 3 MR. KRISTAL: Anywhere. 4 quantities for they were dealing with a gamut of 4 MR. SPEZIALI: There's a big 5 industrial exposures. 5 difference. 6 Q. My question is focused on asbestos, 6 MR. KRISTAL: You can object to the ' 7 so I would like your answers to be focused on 7 farm of the question. t 8 asbestos. Is it your opinion that as of 1934 GE 8 MR. SPEZIALI: I do object. I think 9 knew that exhaust ventilation was one authority, 9 it's an unfair question. 10 method or measure o f reducing the risk of 10 A. Can I have the question, please? 11 asbestos disease? 11 Q. Sure. What asbestos-containing 1 12 A. My answer was that in 1934 GE health 12 materials was GE using in 1934? 13 and safety professionals were aware that exhaust 13 A. Well, I don't know, other than the 14 ventilation was one type of measure that could 14 few products that they made, I don't know what 15 help prevent disease such as asbestosis. 15 other kinds of materials they were using, if it 16 Q. Fine. And by 1934 is it your opinion 16 wasn't reported. 17 to a reasonable degree of medical certainty that 17 Q. Okay. What products did GE make that 18 GE health and safety professionals knew that 18 contained asbestos in 1934? 19 wetting asbestos materials was one way of 19 A. In 1934? 20 reducing the risk of asbestos disease? 20 Q. Make it the 1930s if that's easier. 21 A. Yes, according to Alice Hamilton 21 A. GE made two types of products, small 22 survey reports in 1934 when she reported -- 22 torques of which contained some amount of 23 strike that. 23 asbestos for certain periods of time. From the 24 Can I have your question again? 24 1930s to 1980, GE made wire and cable products, 25 Q. Sure. I'd like to know if in your 25 a small portion of which contained asbestos and Page 199 Page 201 : 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 opinion to a reasonable degree of certainty by 2 encapsulated asbestos. It's estimated that the 3 1934 GE health and safety specialists knew that 3 asbestos products, that the proportion was like 4 wetting asbestos-containing materials was one 4 five to ten percent, which decreased over time 5 method whereby they could reduce the risk of 5 into the seventies when in 1979 the NEC approved : 6 asbestos disease? 6 the highest temperature wire non-asbestos, and, 7 A. Well, there was no secret either. 7 the business was actually sold in 1980. 8 Certainly, by 1934 health and safety 8 So wire and cable was one type of 9 professionals knew that wetting could be one 9 product line, again, a small portion of which ; 10 method to suppress dust, meaning, an 10 contained asbestos. The other being polymers and 11 asbestos-containing dust, as well as other dusts 11 phenolics. Those are divided into two types. One 12 of interest. 12 is called textolite, and, textolite was made 13 Q. And by reducing the dust they knew 13 from the 1930s to 1973. Only about five percent 14 that you could reduce the risk of the disease? 14 of textolite material ever contained asbestos. 15 A. They who? 15 That was a laminate board. The other type of 16 Q. You said the health and safety 16 phenolic material was a material called genol 17 specialists generally knew that, by 1934 knew 17 (phonetic). You gave me, it was made in the 1920s 18 that using wet methods would reduce the amount 18 to 1972, and, again, not all genol ever 19 of dust that would be generated when asbestos 19 contained asbestos. That was phased out as 20 materials were handled, right? 20 asbestos-containing in 1972. 21 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. What 21 Q. Anything else? 22 asbestos-containing products? What are you 22 A. Asbestos-containing textolite was 23 talking about? 23 phased out in 1973. 24 Q. What asbestos-containing products 24 Q. And the information about these 25 were being used by GE at that time? 25 products came in part from the Answers to PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 51 (Pages 198 to 201) 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct Page 202 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct Page 204 2 Interrogatories that you reviewed? 2 consultants for the company. 3 A. As I said, there were a lot of cross 3 Q. Other than the products you have 4 checks. 4 mentioned you are aware that GE used 5 Q. I'm just asking you if some of the 5 asbestos-containing insulation to insulate 6 information -- 6 turbines when they were tested in the twenties. 7 A. I'm answering your question. 7 thirties and forties, are you aware of that? 8 Q. Okay. 8 A. A turbine is not an asbestos product. 9 A. In part. But a lot of the material 9 A turbine is a metal machine that GE produced. 10 also came from the states. The oldest material 10 Q. I'm asking you if in the testing of 11 came from the states. There were search made, 11 those products you're aware that GE used 12 frequent information requests made of state 12 asbestos-containing insulation to test those 13 reports going back over time. So some of these 13 products in the factory? 14 descriptions of products and constituents were 14 A. Maybe, maybe not. 15 in reports from the various states. 15 Q. You don't know one way or the other? 16 Q. Okay. So in part you got information 16 A. I haven't seen anything relating to 17 that you just mentioned about these products 17 exactly what you're saying. 18 from General Electric Answers to Interrogatories 18 Q. Have you read Mr. Hobson's deposition 19 in part and in part you got it from? 19 that I took a couple weeks ago? 20 A. From industrial hygiene survey 20 A. No. ; 21 testing reports from the states. 21 Q. Did you see the photographs from the 22 Q. What do you mean from the states? 2 2 GE museum that turbines insulated with thermal 23 That's what I'm not understanding. 23 insulation from the twenties, thirties and 24 A. There's some others too. 24 forties, have you seen any photographs from any 25 Q. List the whole thing first. 25 GE plants, copies of -- Page 203 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Industrial hygiene surveys from the states was 3 the second one? 4 A. State governments pre-OSHA had state 5 inspections. Post-OSHA there were OSHA 6 inspections. And there were searches made of 7 state records going back to the 1950s and some 8 of those reports provided information on the 9 products that I just told you about. 10 Q. Gotcha. 11 A. Constituents and things like that, 12 time periods, information. Some of the material 13 was, I also learned about from speaking to 14 people, some of the industrial hygiene medical 15 people who were with the company over periods of 16 time. There may have been other information. 17 That's what I recall right now. 18 Q. The state inspections, are those 19 different than the 4,500 industrial hygiene 20 studies? 21 A. There were 4,500 samples taken 22 throughout GE facilities from the fifties to the 23 nineties, and some of those measurements, 24 probably a small portion came from the states. 25 Other were done by a company, others by Page 205 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 A. I've seen photos from GE plants. I'd 3 have to see exactly what you're talking about. 4 Q. Have you ever seen any photos of any 5 GE turbines with thermal insulation on them in 6 the plants of GE? 7 A. Not that I recall. 8 Q. Okay. I want you to assume that there 9 was asbestos-containing thermal insulation put 10 on GE turbines when they were tested in the 11 plant. Okay? Are you with me so far? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Are you aware of whether or not GE 14 took any measures to protect the people from the 15 risk of asbestos diseases who were handling 16 those products thermal insulation with asbestos? 17 A. As with all materials, the health and 18 safety professionals at GE would have devised 19 measures that would be protective of their 2 0 people because they're the employer and it's on 21 their premises. 2 2 Q. Okay. So GE's knowledge about the 23 hazards of asbestos would relate to any exposure 24 to asbestos regardless o f the source? 25 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 52 (Pages 202 to 205) Page 206 Page 208 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. Whether it was a thermal insulation, 2 at least as of 1943 would have been aware of 3 or textile or anything else? 3 that, correct, that asbestos as in pipe covering 4 MR. SFEZ1ALI: Objection. You mean in 4 could pose the risk of asbestosis? 5 its facilities? 5 A. Well, it appears that the Navy shared 6 MR. KRISTAL: Yes. 6 that kind of information. I would think that GE 7 Q. You're saying GE had this stellar 7 health and safety professionals would have been 8 industrial hygiene program? 8 aware of prevailing medical and scientific 9 A. GE had a stellar program. 9 information at the time, including that 10 Q. And its knowledge about the hazards 10 forefront material from the United States Navy. 11 of asbestos that go back to 1934 included 11 Q. Okay. Do you have an opinion as to 12 asbestos that would be contained in any asbestos 12 whether GE knew more or less or about the same 13 product, right? It wasn't broken out asbestos in 14 1934 we know is dangerous in textiles as opposed 13 as the Navy historically as to the hazards of 14 asbestos? 15 to insulation? 16 A. I don't understand the question. I 15 A. My understanding from having worked 16 with the United States Navy and having reviewed 17 think it's a couple parts. 18 Q. Let me re-ask it. By the mid-1930s, 17 documents that the Navy was the foremost source 18 of information about asbestos and its possible 19 do you have an opinion as to whether or not GE 19 hazards. The Navy had a highly invigorated 20 was aware that asbestos-containing thermal 20 health and safety program rich in tradition - 21 insulation presented a risk of asbestos disease? 21 going back over time. 22 Do you have an opinion on that subject? 22 Q. When you say the Navy was the 23 A. By the middle to late, by the middle 23 foremost source of information about the hazards 24 1960s to 1970 GE health and safety professionals 24 of asbestos, what do you mean? 25 would have been aware of the studies that were 25 A. I would say the Navy was an expert in Page 207 Page 209 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 conducted on insulation material. 2 asbestos, in its uses, you know, properties. 3 Q. I'm not asking you that. When is the 3 Q. Okay. And you're getting that from 4 earliest point in time that you believe GE or 4 the Brown article we saw, right, in part? 5 any GE health and safety professionals were 5 A. Well, in part. As I said, I worked 6 aware that asbestos as in the same materials 6 with the Navy and I'm aware, I worked for the ; 7 that we saw in the 1943 minimum requirements 7 Navy and I'm aware of their tradition in health i 8 document posed a risk of asbestos disease? 8 and safety. I was an industrial hygienist at a ! 9 MR. SPEZ1AL1: Objection. She's not 9 shipyard. i 10 being offered in that area. 10 Q. The Navy had a whole lot more on its ! 11 A. You're saying disease. That's very 11 plate than GE did? | 12 broad. 12 A. I don't know what you mean by that. I 13 Q. Asbestosis? 13 Q. GE was making product, some of which 3 14 A. I'd say it wasn't a secret. As we 14 contained asbestos. The Navy was involved in 1 15 said, 1934, mid-thirties it was known in the 15 building ships, fighting, transporting troops, : 16 medical and scientific community that high 16 supplying troops. It had a lot of things going i 17 levels of asbestos dust could cause asbestosis. 17 on other than asbestos, right? ? 18 Q. From whatever the source? 18 MR. SPEZIALI: Sort of like GE, you ; 19 A. High levels of asbestos dust, right, 19 mean? ; 20 from whatever the source. 20 MR. KRISTAL: Exactly. That's what I'm ; 21 Q. And as we saw from the 1943 minimum 21 saying. s 22 requirements document they were talking about 22 A. When you're saying the Navy had a lot i 23 asbestos as in pipe covering, right? 24 A. Yes, they said as in pipe covering. 23 on its plate, I don't know what you mean. I 5 24 don't know if you're being funny or not. - 25 Q. So GE health and safety specialists 25 Q. I'm not being funny at all. I usually i PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 53 (Pages 206 to 209) Page 210 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 telegraph my jokes. 3 Did you say the Navy was the foremost 4 source o f information about asbestos? 5 A. Yes, the Navy was a highly 6 sophisticated customer with a long-standing 7 tradition in health and safety and knowledge. 8 Q. Would you say that GE was highly 9 sophisticated with respect to its knowledge 10 about asbestos? 11 A. I'd say that GE health and safety 12 professionals were knowledgable about the 13 knowledge of the constituents o f their products 14 and they took measures so that their people, 15 their employees on their premises could work 16 safely with that, including other materials. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. That was just one o f hundreds of 19 thousands o f materials that they handled safely. | 20 MR. KRISTAL: Are you offering Ms. 121 Drucker with respect to warnings issues? !22 MR. SPEZLALI: Am I offering her as to 23 warnings issues? No. j 24 Q. Is it your opinion to a reasonable 25 degree of certainty that by 1934 GE health and Page 212 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Go ahead. 3 A. The people, who? The people? Q. You said GE had measures in place to 5 reduce the risk of asbestos disease? 6 A. I said the health and safety 7 professionals devised to prevent asbestosis 8 among other diseases. 9 Q. To prevent asbestos diseases among 0 whom are you talking about, GE employees? 1 A. Well, we're talking about GE 2 employees on GE premises. That's what they had 3 control of. So the GE health and safety 4 professionals who had control of GE employees on 5 premises devised certain safety measures. 6 Q. And was one of those measures letting 17 the people who were being exposed to asbestos 18 know that they were at risk of asbestos disease 19 so that the people could take measures to make 20 sure they would reduce their exposure? 21 MR. SPEZLALI: Objection. 22 Q. The GE employees? 23 A. The GE health and safety employee 24 professionals were the people who were 25 knowledgable, and they devised measures so Page 211 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 safety specialists were aware the use of 3 respirators could reduce the risk of asbestos 4 disease? 5 MR. SPEZLALI: Didn't we do this one 6 already? 7 MR. KRISTAL: I don't think so. 8 A. I don't think it was a secret in the 9 medical and scientific literature that reducing 10 exposure to dust can prevent disease. Say, by 11 the mid-thirties the health and safety 12 professionals would have been aware. 13 Q. At GE? 14 A. The health and safety professionals 15 at GE would have been aware that reducing 16 exposure such as respirators would prevent 17 disease. 18 Q. And specifically to asbestos? 19 A. To asbestosis, yes. 20 Q. Was it important for people using 21 asbestos at GE to be aware that the material 122 they were using was potentially hazardous in 23 terms o f them reducing their risk o f the 24 disease? 1 25 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. Relevance. Page 213 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 people can work safely. 3 Q. If in 1934 someone who was handling 4 asbestos was given a respirator do you think it 5 would have been important for that person to 6 have been told by the GE health and safety 7 specialist that there was a risk of disease if 8 they didn't use the respirator? 9 MR. SPEZIALI: Same objection. 10 A. Could you say that again, please? 11 Q. Let me start again. As an industrial 12 hygienist you believe it's important for people 13 to know they're working with a potentially 14 hazardous substance so they can reduce their 15 risk? 16 A. That's certainly the approach OSHA 17 takes now. Going back over time, it's not clear. 18 Q. You don't think in the 1930s it was 19 known by the industrial hygiene community that 20 one way of reducing risks to hazardous 21 substances was to let people know that they were 22 working with a hazardous substance? 23 A. Well, as a professional who does this 24 kind of work, the way it works is that the 25 health and safety professionals study an area, 54 (Pages 210 to 213) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 214 Page 216 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 study an environment, make a professional 2 It's also important to tell people 3 determination as to what needs to be done to 3 that things can happen and, you know, this is 4 protect people, various types of procedures 4 for their betterment they should use these 5 perhaps, and, certainly, as a part would explain 5 things in a certain way. But the main way 6 to people to utilize the appropriate measures 6 occupational health and safety works is through 7 such as respirators and ventilation, but it's 7 health and safety professionals devising 8 the health and safety professionals that go in 8 measures to protect people for employers to 9 and have the experience and training and can set 9 protect their employees and to control what can 10 up these measures so that they're followed. 10 be controlled best by those who can do the 11 I've worked for over 30 years doing this 11 controlling. 12 kind of work, and, what's most effective is for 12 MR. KRISTAL: Why don't we take a 13 a premises, for a location, for an area to have 13 break and come back to this? 14 controls in place. It doesn't work just telling 14 (Whereupon, there is a recess in the 15 people about different kind of things. What you 15 proceedings.) 16 have to do is tiy and engineer problems out and 16 (Whereupon, Various Documents are 17 control the source, and that has to be done by 17 marked Plaintiff's Drucker Exhibit 4 For 18 people who are trained in the field by 18 Identification.) 19 professional health and safety people who know 19 (Whereupon, Various Documents are 20 how to device measures. 20 marked Plaintiffs Drucker Exhibit 5 For 21 Q. I wasn't saying informing people of 21 Identification.) 22 the hazard was the only measure. But you 22 Q. I've marked as Drucker Exhibit 4 a 23 certainly believe that is one of the measures? 23 paper clipped group of documents. On the first 24 A. Certainly from what we know today 24 page in handwriting it says "Radcliffe - please 25 it's a part of health and safety perhaps such as we 25 note stamp on back of each page." Could you tell Page 215 Page 217 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 know now. 2 us what Exhibit 4 is? 3 Q. When, in your opinion, was the 3 A. This note is something that I wrote. 4 earliest that that was a part of health and 4 What I did was, about three or four weeks ago, I 5 safety programs? 5 visited Harvard and Radcliffe libraries to look 6 A. I don't know if I can give you an 6 for papers that were relevant that were Alice 7 exact date. 7 Hamilton. I looked at some of the Drinker files. 8 Q. You don't believe it was a part of 8 So this collection comes from Radcliffe Library, 9 health and safety from an industrial hygienist's 9 and, these are some industrial hygiene, some 10 point to educate workers as to the potential 10 surveys and other correspondence information 11 hazards they might be exposed to in the 1930s? 11 that I found in Radcliffe in the Alice Hamilton 12 A. I think it's part of an overall 12 collection that's housed there. 13 program that, to me, being a professional and 13 Q. Okay. 14 knowing how this works -- can I finish without 14 A. Some that I didn't think that I had 15 being cut off? 15 seen that we had collected before, so I had 16 Q. Sure. Go ahead. I wish you would 16 copies made and then I sent them on to Mr. 17 answer the question, though. 17 Kapshandy's firm, and that's how they ended up 18 A. The way it really works, I've worked 18 here. 19 for companies, I've worked for the Navy, I've 19 Q. Okay. What were you looking for at 20 worked in various situations, the way it really 20 the Radcliffe Library in terms of documents you 21 works, the way to protect people is to put 21 would select out of a larger group of documents? 22 measures in place as the employer, as the 22 A. What I was looking for principally at 23 premises owner, as the person who has control 23 Radcliffe were Dr. Alice Hamilton's work she did 24 over what's going on and to institute measures 24 throughout GE's facilities or anything related 25 so people are protected. 25 to her work at GE, and, what I had with me was a PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 55 (Pages 214 to 217) 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct Page 218 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct Page 220 > 2 list o f some of the articles that we collected 2 GE? She wasn't just doing this report for her ; 3 on Alice Hamilton and I was adding to it those 3 own edification, was she? 4 which I didn't think we had. So I wanted to 4 A. As was her custom, she would forward 5 supplement the collection so that we would have 5 information, forward the reports to GE. ; 6 as many as we could. 6 Q. I read that report quickly. It ; 7 Q. When you say "articles," you mean 7 doesn't discuss asbestosis or asbestos at all, 8 documents as opposed to, somebody says an 8 does it? 9 article, I think of a published article? 9 A. I didn't see a mention of asbestos or 10 A. When I say article here I'm referring 10 asbestosis. 11 to either her letters or industrial hygiene 11 Q. It's focused more on silica? 12 survey reports, or, there are some, I just saw 12 A. It took a lot of her attention. When 13 one this week, an article in here, some 13 you look at her body of information, she studied 14 correspondence back and forth within the 14 at GE and non-GE alike. Yes, this appears to be 15 company. I meant that in that sense ofjust - 15 non-silica. 16 Q. Items? 16 Q. Are the industrial hygiene principles 17 A. Items. Thank you. 17 that relate to silica dust and reducing silica 18 Q. A ~ there's a 1929, it looks like some 18 disease in the 1920s that are outlined in that 19 sort of a report from a foundry; is that 19 report the same industrial hygiene principles 20 correct? 20 that would apply to any other pneumococcus 21 A. If it's ear tabbed, it says, "April 21 producing dust such as asbestos? 22 19th, 1929 and Elmira Foundry." 22 A. I'm going to have to ask you to focus 23 Q. And what is your understanding as to 23 for me and tell me what you're looking at. 24 what that document is? 24 Q. Why did you copy that document? Let's 25 A. Can I look it over for a minute? 25 put it that way. Page 219 Page 221 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. O f course. 2 A. Why did I copy this? 3 (Whereupon, the witness peruses the 3 Q. Yes. 4 document.) 4 A. As I said, it was part of the Alice 5 A. Yes. Thank you. 5 Hamilton documents in the GE collection, and, to 6 Q. My question was, what is your 6 me, it was very important to show that not only 7 understanding of what that document is? 7 was she visiting GE facilities, but that she was 8 A. Dr. Alice Hamilton visited the Elmira 8 very, paying very much attention to the leading 9 Foundry Company and wrote about it in this 9 occupational disease at the time that related to 10 report. 10 silica, silicosis. So it put in context for me 11 Q. And sent it to GE; is that your 11 the general idea that silica was a leading 12 understanding? Let me back up a second. How do 12 disease at the time, industrial disease, I 13 you know Alice Hamilton wrote that? 13 should say. 14 A. Well, I found this in her, I found it 14 Q. And the import of that with respect 15 in the Alice Hamilton collection at Radcliffe, 15 to opinions you have in this case is what, that 16 and, I was going through the papers, and, as I 16 people shouldn't have been paying attention to 17 was going through the papers I noticed that the 17 asbestos? 18 type face, she had a typewriter she prepared a 18 A. Well, I think that it puts into 19 lot of reports on. It was in the folder for 19 context what was really, what was going on in 20 Alice Hamilton. The type face was the same. The 20 industry and in the health and safety at the 21 handwriting in the corrections is the same. So I 21 time. The leading occupational illness of the 22 believe this is an Alice Hamilton survey report. 22 time was silicosis. Emphasis was put on silica. 23 Q, And it's also your report that that 23 And it's not that no heed should be paid to 24 Alice Hamilton 1929 Elmira survey report was 24 asbestos, but it wasn't, it just was not as big 25 forwarded at or around the date of the report to 25 a deal as silicosis and possibly other PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 56 (Pages 218 to 221 ) Page 222 Page 224 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 industrial diseases that were prevalent at the 2 Q. So as of 1929, at least from this 3 time. 3 Alice Hamilton survey of the GE foundry, GE 4 MR. SPEZIALI: Just for clarification. 4 health and safety specialists were aware that 5 I don't plan on having her render those 5 individuals who were not working with a dusty 6 opinions in this case. The reason we 6 product could be exposed to the dust being 7 brought that is we are going to have her 7 created by others working nearby; is that fair 8 talk about Alice Hamilton and those are 8 to say? 9 part of the Alice Hamilton materials. 9 A. Could you say as of this date? 10 Q. Do you know who AJ Lanza (phonetic) 10 Q. 1929. 11 was? 11 A. It was no secret. I would think 12 A. I'm familiar with a Dr. Lanza, yes. 12 that any sophisticated health and safety 13 Q. Okay. Who was Dr. Lanza? 13 professional, medical people at the time it 14 A. For more completeness I would refer 14 would make sense that you segregate areas. 15 to my listing, but I'm familiar there was a Dr. 15 Certainly the Navy would have known something 16 Lanza who had done some studies on, including 16 like that at that point in time. Sophisticated 17 asbestos. I don't recall what else was studied. 17 places would have known it. 18 Q. Is that something you learned from 18 Q. Certainly GE knew it? 19 the GE folks you interviewed? 19 A. We know from this report the premier 20 A. I certainly got that from some of the 20 expert working in the country working for GE 21 medical and scientific literature at the time, 21 mentioned that. 22 and, it's something that over periods of time, I 22 Q. And mentioned it to GE? 23 told you I reviewed documents for many years, 23 A. Yes, she did. 24 and it's something that I'm sure I have been 24 Q. Could you tell us what Exhibit 5 is 25 familiar with at different periods of time. 25 just for the record. Page 223 Page 225 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. Have you ever seen a textbook called 2 A. This is my handwriting. It says 3 "Asbestosis and Silicosis" by Lanza? 3 "Harvard - please note stamp on front." I went 4 A. Not that I recall. 4 to Harvard University Medical School Medical 5 Q. The second tab on Exhibit 4, there's 5 Library in Boston and I looked at papers that 6 a section I will read you and sentence and hand 6 they were, that they pulled for me on Alice 7 it back to you. It says, "A canvass screen has 7 Hamilton, on Philip Drinker, on some of the 8 been placed to keep from two men the dust which 8 histoxy of the Harvard School of Public Health, 9 another man raises when he blows out his moles." 9 General Electric. There were a few things in 10 Do you see that? 10 there they searched for me, and these were some 11 (Whereupon, the witness peruses the 11 documents that I found that were not in our 12 document.) 12 collection that I wanted to supplement the 13 A. I sure do. 13 collection with to make it more complete. 14 Q. And that was a well-known industrial 14 Q. When you say "not in our collection," 15 hygiene principle of the time, the time being at 15 who is the "our" that you're referring to? 16 least 1929, o f segregating dusty work so that 16 A. The listing that I mentioned to you 17 people who were not involved with dusty work 17 before, the index listing has a number of 18 wouldn't be exposed to the dust being created by 18 documents which I've contributed, which some of 19 others? 19 them had been contributed by the Sidley law 20 A. I don't know how well-known it was. I 20 firm. We had both put documents into this 21 would think by very sophisticated entities such 21 listing, and I thought these were absent so I 22 as the Navy, sophisticated places would have 22 wanted to supplement our collection. 23 been aware that that would have been one measure 23 Q. Okay. 24 that could be helpful to segregate dust one area 24 (Whereupon, Videotape is marked 25 to another. 25 Plaintiff's Drucker Exhibit 6 For PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 57 (Pages 222 to 225) Page 226 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Identification.) 1 w .. Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct Page 228 3 Q. This is a videotape marked Exhibit 6. 4 It says, "Electric Nation PBS"? 2 A. Yes, I did. There's a Men and Bolts 3 at War. It's a story of GE in World War II. 4 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. What is that? Q. Anything about industrial hygiene? 5 A. I think it puts into perspective 6 that, you know, GE as a company worked with many 7 A. I highly recommend this. This is a 8 video that was made of a program, and it's about 7 type of health and safety situations. They had 8 many things they had to do. Men and Bolts at War 9 the lighting o f America and about the history of 10 lighting in America from the turn of the last 9 deals with GE's contribution to the war effort 10 and winning the war through the work they did 11 Century, 19th Centuiy and how lighting spread 11 around the clock for many years during --I'm 12 literally from nothing to lighting the whole 12 sorry. Your question was? 13 nation. So that's what "Electric Nation" means, 14 and it's, it shows fantastic growth, and some of 13 Q. The question was whether it had 14 anything to do with industrial hygiene? 15 the origination of electricity and major works 15 A. Well, I think in terms of the 16 in its generation and its transformation were GE 17 people. 16 spectrum of what you can see GE got into the 17 observation that the health and safety 18 Q. Does it in any way discuss industrial 19 hygiene? 18 professionals were very premier, and it just 19 speaks to me in general about the quality of the 20 A. I haven't seen it in a little while 20 company. 21 and I don't recall nothing, but that's not to 21 Q. Okay. Are you saying that the book 22 say it doesn't. 22 Men and Bolts discusses GE, discusses hygiene at 23 Q. Does it discuss asbestos? 23 any level? 24 A. Not that I remember. 24 MR. SPEZIALI: There is a Men and 25 Q. Does it discuss a Navy knowledge of 25 Bolts and a Men and Bolts at War. Page 227 Page 229 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 asbestos, GE knowledge of asbestos? 2 A. Not directly. But as somebody who has 3 A. Not that I recall. 3 looked at the rich history and GE being on the 4 Q. Okay. What relevance does it have to 4 forefront of health and safety, it measures to 5 any opinions you may have in this case? 5 me they were so on the forefront and all the 6 MR. SPEZIALI: I'll answer that. It's 6 contributions they made to the war effort and to 7 relevant to who GE is. 7 this country winning this war. It's just part to 8 MR. KRISTAL: Okay. 8 me of a story. 9 MR. SPEZIALI: You know, the thing 9 Q. What does that have to do with 10 about other things that they have to do and 10 measuring with industrial hygiene? You can have 11 worry about, sort of like the Navy. 11 a company that can do what you just said and 12 (Whereupon, Handwritten Note is 12 have a great industrial high program or have a 13 marked Plaintiffs Drucker Exhibit 7 For 13 bad industrial hygiene program. 14 Identification.) 14 A. I don't know about that. What I've 15 Q. Drucker 7 is a little note "Men and 15 been able to ascertain, GE had a premier 16 Bolts at War (phonetic), GE History, Betts' 16 program. They were on the forefront of health 17 Power Point Exhibits"? 17 and safety. This, to me, was just, it directed 18 MR. KAPSHANDY: No, deposition. 18 me to the contributions that GE made in helping 19 MR. KRISTAL: I'm sorry. 19 win World War II and the types of material and 20 MR. KAPSHANDY: That's my handwriting. 20 equipment produced and how it helped allow this 21 MR. KRISTAL: That's deposition and 21 country to prevail. 22 exhibit? 22 Q. What's that got to do with industrial 23 MR. KAPSHANDY: Right. 23 hygiene? 24 Q. You've reviewed the book Men and 24 A. As a professional, when I look at 25 Bolts? 25 organizations and I do analyses, surveys, PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 58 (Pages 226 to 229) Page 230 Page 232 ; 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 studies o f different organizations, I think I've 2 view this company. 3 seen over the course of my career that companies 3 Q. If you had just read that book would 4 that are premier, generally have premier 4 you be rendering an opinion o f what kind of 5 aspects associated with them that, to me, what 5 industrial hygiene company they had? 6 this meant in health and safety was here's a 6 A. If I had only read this book? 7 company that is just outstanding and it just 7 Q. Yes. 8 meshed to me in terms of their health and safety 8 A. It's part of a bunch of pieces that 9 effort over the years how they've been in the 9 fit together, a bunch of information that all 10 forefront, and it just, to me, it was just 10 points in the same direction. It's just part of 11 another piece of the GE picture. 11 the picture of the company that is GE. 12 Q. Other than being another piece of the 12 Q. And is there any part of that book 13 GE picture generally as to what the General 13 that discusses any aspect of industrial hygiene? 14 Electric Company was about, it had nothing to do 14 A. Not that I could cite right now. 15 with industrial hygiene, did it? It doesn't say 15 Q. What's the next book, "GE History"? : 16 what GE knew or didn't know or any measures they 16 It's like a coffee table history book? 17 took to prevent any disease or anything about 17 A. It's actually a great book. It's 1976 18 that? 18 to 1986 GE history, and that's the history of ; 19 A. Well, as I said, as a professional, 19 the General Electric Company, and, from its 20 when I look at an organization, I look at many 20 inception from the companies from which it was 21 times an organization in its totality, and this 21 founded in the 1890's and how it consolidated 22 company -- can I finish? 22 and grew from there and the contributions it's 23 Q. O f course you can finish. 23 made over the years in medicine, in various 24 A. Thank you. And this company made a 24 services, certainly in electrical products. ; 25 major contribution in World War n and things 25 It's also, it's a rich history of a Page 231 Page 233 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 that they made and the descriptions of how the 2 very diversified company, made hundreds if not 3 factories were run around the clock and just 3 thousands of types of products over the years, 4 how the output was continuous and the types, the 4 and it provides a lot of good background 5 varied amounts of materials that they made, and, 5 information on the company. 6 obviously, in making these things they had to 6 Q. Nothing in it about industrial 7 work with thousands of types of substances, many 7 hygiene, right? 8 of which could have been hazardous, and they 8 A. Not that I recall. To me, again, it's 9 obviously have been on the forefront of health 9 part of the overall picture of this company. 10 and safety, and this was part of it. 10 Q. You're aware that GE made x-ray 11 Q. You're saying that every company that 11 equipment beginning in the 1930s to help detect 12 made a major contribution to World War n and 12 pneumococcus, including asbestosis? ; 13 had production around the clock had stellar 13 A. I'm aware that GE made x-ray 14 industrial hygiene programs? 14 equipment. The next part of your question, I'd ; 15 A. What I've been able to gather about 15 have to see some documentation on that. 16 GE from many variety of sources, this was one 16 Q. Have you ever seen some x-ray ; 17 more piece of a picture of a company that is, 17 equipment? 18 that's been on the forefront in health and 18 A. Yes. 19 safety and in other ways too certainly in their 19 Q. It was being promoted to help in the 20 contribution to the war effort in World War II. 20 medical surveillance programs you discussed in 21 Q. And I'm asking if it's your opinion 21 the thirties with respect to asbestos disease? 22 that all companies who made a major contribution 22 A. Could you ask that again? I want to 23 to the World War II war effort had stellar 23 make sure I understand your question. 24 industrial hygiene programs? 24 Q. Sure. The question is whether you 25 A. I don't know. I had an opportunity to 25 have seen any literature whereby the GE x-ray PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 59 (Pages 230 to 233) . , 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct Page 234 Page 236 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 equipment as of the 1930s was being promoted for 2 deposition. 3 use in medical surveillance type activities such 3 Q. Why did you read his deposition? 4 as you mentioned in terms o f the knowledge GE 4 A. For background information. 5 had about asbestosis? 5 Q. On what subject? 6 A. As I sit here right now I can't think 6 A. General material. Dr. Betts had a 7 of an article on that, but I do know that they 7 long and illustrious career with the United 8 made, electric, excuse me, x-ray equipment that 8 States Navy, and I thought that would be 9 would have been used for a variety of medical 9 productive to read what he had to say 10 and health prevention purposes. 10 Q. Why? 11 Q. Including the detection of 11 A. Because he had been a physician and 12 pneumococcus? 12 an industrial hygienist with the United States 13 A. Quite possibly. 13 Navy. I thought that his, the information he 14 Q. What's the next item, Betts' 14 could impart would be contributoiy, would be 15 deposition and exhibits? 15 informational. 16 A. Yes. 16 Q. Contributory to what? 17 Q. What does that mean? 17 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. She read it 18 A. That refers to this list, Dr. Betts' 18 because we asked her to because she's being 19 exhibits to his deposition. 19 offered as a witness. 20 Q. In your hand, Drucker Exhibit 3? 20 MR. KRISTAL: All you need to do is 21 A. Yes. 21 say objection. 22 Q. What is Exhibit 3? 22 MR. SPEZIALI: No, not when you're 23 A. It's called "Asbestos Library 23 fighting with her. 24 Catalog." It's my understanding it's Dr. Betts' 24 MR. KRISTAL: We will get the judge on 25 compendium or list. 25 the phone. Let's call Judge Freedman. 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. And that's what that last note - 3 A. Exhibits to his deposition. So that's 4 what I would say, that is his deposition 5 exhibits. 6 MR. KAPSHANDY: Deposition and 7 exhibits. 8 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 9 Q. You read his deposition? 10 A. We went over that before, yes, I did. 11 I had an opportunity to read his deposition. 12 Q. Do you disagree with anything he 13 expressed in his deposition? Page 235 Page 237 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 MR. SPEZIALI: Ask your next question. 3 MR. KRISTAL: If you promise you're 4 not going to do that. 5 MR. SPEZIALI: Let me hear the 6 question. 7 Q. When you said it was contributory, 8 contributory to what? 9 A. Contributory to general information 10 for me. I was asked to read it. I looked at it. 11 It was of interest. Dr. Betts had been a 12 physician and industrial hygienist with the 13 United States Navy. 14 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. She's not 15 here as a witness against another witness, 16 nor is she here relevant to all the areas 17 Dr. Betts testified to. 14 Q. So it was contributory on your 15 knowledge on the subject? 16 A. To certain information that he 17 related. 18 Q. Do you disagree with anything he 19 testified to in his deposition? 20 A. It's kind of broad. If you can focus 21 me Td be happy to answer. 22 Q. With regard to his testimony of stark 18 Q. Okay. Such as what? 19 A. I'd have to look at the transcript. 20 Q. Okay. Without looking at the 21 transcript you cannot say what it was in 22 particular that his deposition helped to 23 knowledge with regard to asbestos disease, would 24 you disagree? 25 A. I would have to look at the 23 c o n tr ib u t e in te r m s o f y o u r k n o w le d g e b a s e ? 24 A. I have to look at the transcript. 25 Q. Okay. PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 60 (Pages 234 to 237) Page 238 Page 240 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 MR. KR1STAL: I'm just reading from 2 standards with respect to exposure to asbestos, 3 Exhibit 1. "Ms. Drucker may testify to the 4 state-of-the-art with respect to asbestos 3 including TLVs and OSHA-promulgated permissible 4 exposure limits? 5 in the scientific and industrial hygiene 5 A. Okay. If we take TLVs at OSHA, 6 communities, and in particular the 6 permissible exposure limits going back to 1946, 7 evolution of knowledge regarding the 7 the ACGIH, the American Conference of Industrial 8 effects of asbestos exposure and its 8 Hygienists, proposed a promulgated a level that 9 control during the time period relevant to 9 they first called the maximum allowable 10 this case, i.e., prior to 1973." 10 concentration and changed the name to threshold 11 As I understand it, she's not 11 limit value, and that was 500 particles per 12 testifying that broadly, or is she? I 12 cubic foot. In 1968, which the ACGIH then 13 thought earlier we were not begging off, 13 proposed a level of 12 fibers per cc, and then 14 but that Ms. Drucker's knowledge as she 14 OSHA came into effect in 1971. They also adopted 15 sits here related to state-of-the-art with 15 that 12 fiber per cc level in 1972, and that was 16 respect to asbestos and the Navy and GE. 16 a permissible exposure. In 1972, OSHA lowered 17 MR. SPEZIALI: I think, I mean, yes. I 17 the permissible exposure limit to five fibers 18 mean, obviously, when you get into those 18 per cc, and, in 1976, OSHA lowered that again to 19 topics they go a little beyond that and 19 two fibers per cc. In 1986, OSHA again lowered 20 talk about industry in general, but, I 20 that to 0.2 fibers per cc, and, then, in 1994 21 mean, that's how I'm going to address it 21 OSHA again lowered it to 0.1 fibers per cc for 22 when I present it, that testimony, if that 22 any 30 minute period, and that's in effect 23 makes sense. 23 currently now. There were some levels going back 24 Q. Do you have an opinion as to the 24 over time, I just mentioned the current one, 25 state-of-the-art with respect to asbestos in the 25 meaning the one we have now since 1994. Page 239 Page 241 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 scientific and industrial hygiene communities, 2 Q. Do you know the history of the 3 and in particular as to the evolution of 3 promulgation of the MAC for asbestos by the 4 knowledge regarding the effects of asbestos 4 ACGIH? 5 exposure and its control during the period 5 A. Well, I've seen documents in the 6 relevant to this case other than with respect to 6 documentation for threshold limit values over 7 the Navy and GE? 7 the years. 8 MR. SPEZIALI: Again, I'm not going to 8 Q. I'm talking about the first one in 9 ask her about that, Jerry. 9 1947? 10 Q. Nor do you have an opinion as you sit 10 A. Well, as I sit here, I don't recall 11 here today on that subject? 11 in its entirety. I do recall that it was based 12 A. I've been asked to concentrate on the 12 on state-of-the-art at the time, which would 13 Navy in this particular instance. 13 have included Dreesen. 14 Q. So you don't have an opinion on that 14 Q. Anything else? 15 as you sit here today? 15 A. Which they adopted was the five 16 A. As I sit here today, I have not 16 million particles per cubic foot on the Dreesen 17 formulated one. 17 study. 18 Q. Okay. "She may also testify regarding 18 Q. Anything else? 19 the evolution of various standards for exposure 19 A. Not that I remember right now. I'd 20 to asbestos, including TLVs and OSHA-promulgated 20 have to look at the document. 21 permissible exposure limits." 21 Q. And that was total dust? 22 Do you have an opinion on that? 22 A. Well, you know, I've seen it both 23 A. Well, if you ask me a question I 23 ways. I think at different periods of time it 24 could answer it for you. 24 was thought to be either asbestos because in the ! 25 Q. Could you tell me the evolution of 25 proceedings, I think in 1946 they broke it out PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 61 (Pages 238 to 241) Page 242 Page 244 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 where they had five million particles per cubic 2 that contained asbestos but did not know how 3 foot asbestos compared to 50 million particles 3 much dust there was, i.e., above or below five 4 per cubic foot total dust. I'd say over periods 4 million particles per cubic foot? You either 5 of time the thought was, you know, different 5 have an opinion or don't have an opinion on that 6 whether it was total dust, whether it was 6 subject? 7 asbestos-containing dust. It just varied over 7 A. I don't know how else to answer that 8 time. 8 question. 9 Q. Would you agree that by the 1950s, 9 Q. Your answer had nothing to do with my 10 the early 1950s GE knew if you didn't know the 10 question. 11 concentration of asbestos dust you should wear a 12 respirator when you were around asbestos? 13 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. 11 A. It's the employer who's responsible 12 for determining potentially hazardous exposures. 13 Q. Who says? 14 A. I'm not sure I understand your 14 A. Who says? 15 question. 16 Q. Sure. I'm asking you if you have an 17 opinion as to whether GE knew by the early 1950s 18 that if you didn't know what the air measure was 19 you should wear a respirator when you were 15 Q. Who said in the 1940s? 16 A. OSHA says what we know now. And 17 before OSHA came into being there was state 18 health departments that said the employer has 19 the responsibility, the employer is the person 20 around asbestos dust? 21 A. Well, GE health and safety 20 who's in control of the premises, who's in 21 control of the employee and who can exercise 22 professionals looked into a myriad of 23 potentially hazardous materials. Any material 24 can be hazardous. It depends how you work with 25 it safely. 22 control over any kind of potential exposures to 23 protect the person in place. 24 Q. In your opinion, the manufacturer of 25 an asbestos-containing product has no Page 243 Page 245 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Now, in the case of asbestos, the 2 responsibility to warn of the hazard of 3 health and safety professionals would have 3 asbestos? 4 looked into a devised method so that people 4 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. 5 could work with it safely, just as they did with 5 A. The manufacturer of a product? 6 all of the other hundreds of thousands of 6 Q. Yes. 7 materials. 7 A. The manufacturer -- 8 Q. My question is, do you have an 8 Q. Let me ask -- 9 opinion as to whether or not GE was aware by the 9 A. You asked me a question. 10 early 1950s that when you were around dust that 10 Q. Go ahead. 11 contained asbestos and didn't know the 11 A. The manufacturer of a product -- 12 measurement that you should wear a respirator? 12 Q. Right. 13 MR. SPEZLALI: Same objection. 13 A. -- Has responsibility, the 14 A. Well, I answered that. The health and 14 manufacturer of a product to learn about that 15 safety professionals at GE would have devised 15 which it knows about its product. 16 programs to insure the safety of their employees 16 Q. Warn whom? Warn. Not learn. 17 on their premises, that which they controlled, 17 MR. SPEZIALI: Same objection. 18 and, the health and safety people would have 18 A. The manufacturer of a product has a 19 taken appropriate measures, whether it was 19 responsibility to warn. 20 tests, to determine whatever it was involved, 20 Q. Whom? 21 they would take protective measures for their 21 A. We're talking in the abstract, and I 22 people on their premises, that which they had 22 need to know which different type of products. 23 control over. 23 I'd say in general those people who may 24 0- Did GE in the 1950s know that you 24 encounter that type of hazard from their 25 should wear a respirator if you were around dust 25 product. PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 62 (Pages 242 to 245) Page 246 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 2 Q. Okay. 2 3 A. The manufacturer's own product, that 3 4 which they make. 4 5 Q. Do you have an opinion as to whether 5 6 or not the manufacturer of a piece of equipment 6 7 who knows that a potentially hazardous substance 7 8 is being put on its equipment has a duty to warn 8 9 or not? 9 10 MK. SPEZIALI: Objection. There's no 10 11 evidence to support your hypothetical. 11 12 Q. You can answer. 12 13 A. As I said before, the manufacturer of 13 14 a product has a responsibility to warn. I think 14 15 that the manufacturer -- were your questions 15 16 related to something else? Maybe you can clarify 16 17 that. 17 18 Q. Sure. I said does the manufacturer of 18 19 a product which the manufacturer knows is going 19 20 to have a potentially hazardous substance placed 20 21 on it have an obligation to warn? 21 22 A. Warn about what? 22 23 Q. Warn about the dangerous of the 23 24 product that's being placed. 24 25 A. Warn about what kind of dangers? 25 Page 248 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct Drucker testify about an employer's obligation or a sophisticated user's obligation to warn people. If you're not going to go into that, I'm not going to go into this. She dropped the mantra a couple times. MR. SPEZIALI: Because you insist over my objection to take her to areas she's not going to testify about. She is going to testify about the responsibility of the United States Navy, what they published and what they said they were going to do in their specs in respect to your plaintiffs' alleged exposure to equipment made by GE. MR. KRISTAL: Responsibility. MR. SPEZIALI: About what their declaration, about what they said they were going to do. MR. KRISTAL: But not what their legal responsibility or not was? MR. SPEZIALI: I don't think that's permissible for your experts or mine. MR. KRISTAL: I don't disagree with you. 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct Page 247 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct Page 249 2 Q. Any kind of dangers. 3 A. Let me finish my answer. 4 MR. SPEZIALI: Go ahead. 2 Q. What is your opinion as to what the 3 United States Navy said it was going to do with 4 respect to asbestos? Do you have an opinion? 5 A. Warn about what? The manufacturer can 5 A. When? 6 warn about its own type of product. What can a 6 Q. At any point in time. 7 manufacturer sit in the abstract and imagine 7 A. Ask me a question, I'll try to answer 8 other kinds of things that may or may not go in 8 it. 9 situations in which they have no control over? 10 One manufacturer, in over 30 years, I've never 9 Q. I just did. 10 A. I don't understand your question. 11 heard of one manufacturer warning about another 11 It's huge. 12 manufacturer's product. I never heard about that 12 Q. At any point in time, do you have an 13 in over 32 years. 13 opinion as to what the United States Navy said 14 Q. Do you know what the legal 14 about what it was going to do about asbestos? 15 responsibility is of an equipment manufacturer 15 A. At any point in time? 16 to warn about the hazards of another 16 Q. Yes. 17 manufacturer's product that it knows is going to 17 A. This is so vague. 18 be utilized with its product? 18 Q. Well, if you say no, then we move on. 19 MR. SPEZJALl: Objection. 19 A. The Navy said a lot of things over 20 MR. KRISTAL: I'm just asking a 20 periods o f time. If you point to certain things, 21 question. 21 I'd be happy to answer. 22 MR. SPEZIALI: No, no. It's 22 Q. My question is, do you have an 23 irrelevant. Number one, she's not here as 24 an expert in law. 23 opinion as to whether or not the Navy said 24 anything about what it was going to do with 25 MR. KRISTAL: You're going to have Ms. 25 regard to asbestos at any point in time? Do you PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 63 (Pages 246 to 249) nar jpnacrr 3 A. Well, I have various opinions, and, 4 if you ask me different questions about 5 different types of situations over different 6 periods of time I'll give you answers. 7 Q. How about the 1930s? 8 A. How about the 1930s? 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. The question again? Could you frame 11 the question again? 12 Q. Sure. 13 MR. KRISTAL: Dave, I want to make 14 sure this is the subject you're covering. 15 What the Navy said it was going to do about 16 asbestos, is that what you're going to have 17 her testify about? 18 Q. I'm trying to use the words you used. 19 I want to get the information I'm entitled to. 20 Here's the question. Do you have an opinion 21 about what the United States Navy said they were 22 going to do in their specs in respect to the 23 plaintiffs' alleged exposure to equipment made 24 by GE? Do you have an opinion on that subject at 25 any point in time? Jlv' . i.tev* Vtv v ki., 3 control over its premises, its people and what 4 goes on in the Navy. 5 Q. Okay. 6 MR. KRISTAL: Are you going to be 7 asking her that, because a portion of the 8 answer dealt with responsibility to 9 maintain its own premises? If that's not 10 coming out, than I don't need to go into 11 the other. But I want to know if we're 12 going to hear that in court? 13 MR. SPEZIALI: I am going to ask her 14 whether based on her knowledge of the Navy 15 GE had an option of going aboard these 16 ships without their approval? I mean, you 17 know I'm going to get into the Navy, what 18 you can or can't do with respect to the 19 Navy. Whose rules are they? Whose specs are 20 they? I am going to get into that with her. 21 MR. KRISTAL: But not to the Navy's 22 responsibility to maintain their own 23 premises? 24 MR. SPEZIALI: Sure. I'm going to ask 25 her who maintains their ships. Is that what 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 A. I don't understand your question. Page 251 1 2 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct you mean? Page 253 3 Q. I'm just rephrasing what Mr. 4 Speziali said was the subject. He said, "She's 5 going to testify about the responsibility of the 6 United States Navy, what they published and what 7 they said they were going to do in their specs 8 in respect to your client's alleged exposure to 9 equipment made by GE." 10 I'm asking you if you have such an 11 opinion? 12 A. Well, it's a very general question, 13 and I'll answer it as best I can. The United 14 States Navy was a highly sophisticated entity. 15 It was a highly sophisticated customer of many 16 places, including General Electric. They had the 17 ability and responsibility to maintain and 18 control their own premises and employees, and 3 Q. When you said"maintain their own 4 premises," you weren't talking about maintenance 5 on the ship? 6 A. I meant control. The Navy controls 7 its premises, the equipment, materials, how they 8 do it, what they do. The Navy is in control, 9 and, I can tell you from having worked for the 10 Navy that the Navy runs its own ships. 11 Q. Did the Navyallow 12 A. So to speak. 13 Q. Did the Navy allow any warnings for 14 any hazardous substances that were authorized at 15 any point in time in the Navy? 16 A. Did the Navy allow? I'd have to look 17 at Navy specs. The Navy did what the Navy wanted 18 to do. 19 they had long-standing knowledge about asbestos 20 and disease. 21 Q. Anything else? 22 A. The United States Navy from my 23 experience maintains a veiy tight control over 24 its own environments. I'm familiar with that 25 having worked for the Navy as a civilian in a 19 Q. My question is, are you aware one way 20 or the other whether the Navy allowed any 21 manufacturer of any kind of product to put any 22 kind of warning about the hazards of that 23 product or the products used with that product? 24 A. I can't tell you if there were labels 25 on boxes or what. All I know is, anything that PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 64 (Pages 250 to 253) Page 254 Page 256 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 goes on a ship or on the harbor is done by spec 2 Navy would or would not have allowed? 3 and approved by the Navy, that nothing gets on 3 A. The Navy would allow what the Navy 4 without their absolute control. 4 would allow. They were the ultimate, they 5 Q. My question to you is whether or not 5 decided what they were going to do. They decided 6 you have an opinion as to whether or not the 6 how it was going to be done. They decided what 7 Navy allowed any manufacturer with respect to 7 would be done, how it would be left and they 8 its products or any other manufacturer's 8 were completely in charge. They were in control 9 products to put a warning about any hazardous 9 over the places, over the people. They were in 10 substance on or with the product? 10 control. 11 A. And, again, I would say that what is 11 Q. Since you don't know whether anyone 12 on or with the product, anything that is 12 asked, I take it you have no opinion as to 13 installed that is part of a ship, that is part 13 whether or not the Navy would or wouldn't have 14 of a Navy installation onshore is done by spec and 14 allowed a warning on asbestos-containing 15 every step of the way is approved by what the 15 products or about asbestos-containing products? 16 Navy will allow. 16 A. I do have an opinion. 17 Q. I'm asking you if you know one way or 17 Q. And what's your opinion? : 18 the other whether the Navy allowed anyone to 18 A. Well, I have an opinion. You're 19 warn about anyone? 19 talking about warnings in general? 20 A. That's broad. 20 Q. I'm not talking about warnings in 21 Q. I'm asking you the broadest question 21 general now. I'm talking veiy specifically about 22 I can think of on that question. If the answer 22 asbestos. 23 is no, it eliminates a lot of narrower 23 A. I'll tell you something. When you 24 questions. 24 work for the Navy they are veiy much aware of 25 A. I don't know. 25 maintaining their personnel and how things are Page 255 Page 257 ; 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. So you don't know. How about with 2 done, and, if somebody were to put on some sort 3 respect to asbestos, do you know if any 3 of you're talking about a warning, what did you 4 manufacturer ever requested of the Navy that 4 say label? What's your word? 5 they be allowed to put a warning on any product 5 Q. Any sort of warning. 6 that contained asbestos or product that was used 6 A. Any sort of warning? 7 with a product that contained asbestos? 8 MR. SPEZLALI: Objection. 7 Q. In a manual, on the product, on a 8 sign on a product, any kind of warning. f 9 A. You're talking about a manufacturer 9 A. I'm saying that anything that is i 10 and then you're talking about another type of 10 anywhere is approved by the Navy, but, I can : 11 thing that's not a manufacturer. 11 tell you that the Navy would not allow any kind i 12 Q. I'm talking about a company that 12 of sign or anything that might be considered 1 13 manufactures an asbestos-containing product and 13 disruptive, that they would only allow something ' 14 a company which manufactures a product on which 14 that would be in accordance with Naval 15 are asbestos-containing products? 15 principles and operations. ; 16 A. What kind of warning? 16 Q. Well, certainly it was in accord 1 17 Q. Any kind of warning about the hazards 17 with -- ; 18 of asbestos. 18 A. Somebody couldn't just voluntarily i 19 A. All I know is that when you deal with 19 say, you know, we're going to just do a sign or 20 the Navy the only thing you can have there is 20 a label. That's not the way it works at the 21 what they allow. So I don't know if anybody 21 United States Navy. Everything is speced out. 22 asked, but I know that we only could do what 22 Everything is done the way the Navy wants it, ; 23 they allowed you to do. 24 Q. And if you don't know if anybody 23 and, it's the Navy way or no way. Ifs the Navy ; 24 who has control of these places. 1 25 asked, I take it then you don't know whether the 25 Q. Certainly it would be in accord with PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 65 (Pages 254 to 257) Page 262 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 2 allow something that would be in accordance with 2 3 Naval principles and operations." 3 4 My question is, are you saying that a 4 5 warning about the hazards of asbestos on an 5 Page 264 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct MR. SPEZIALI: What asbestos-containing products? MR. KRISTAL: Any asbestos-containing product. 6 asbestos-containing product or with a product on 7 which asbestos-containing products were used 8 would not be in accord with Naval principles and 9 operations? 10 A. As I said, everything done for the 11 Navy is done the Navy way. But a warning doesn't 12 tell somebody how to work with something safely. A 6 A. For a period of time GE wire and 7 cable had a warning on it starting around 1972 8 in response to some tests that were done on the 9 wire and cable and also in response to OSHA. 10 Q. Okay. How about otherwise? 11 MR. SPEZIALI: How about otherwise 12 what? 13 warning doesn't convey what the person is 14 supposed to do. Everything depends on various 15 situations. It's the health and safety 16 professionals at the site who are in control of 13 MR. KRISTAL: There was no GE warnings 14 on any piece of equipment on which 15 asbestos-containing products went other 16 than what you just said. 17 the place, in this case the Navy who's 18 responsible. 17 MR. SPEZIALI: Okay. 18 A. Well, a metal product is not an 19 It's inconceivable to expect an 19 asbestos product. I described for you before the 20 outside firm or company to inteiject itself into 21 another employer's workplace, let alone the 20 types of products that GE made that contained 21 asbestos. The wire or cable o f which was sold in 22 United States Navy, and start telling them what 22 1980 did have a warning for a period of time, 23 to do and police their, the other employees. 24 It's not the way the world works. 25 Q. So are you saying that a warning 23 and, then, the other two types of products, 24 textolite and genol, were phased out in 1973 to 25 1972 respectively. So there would be no reason 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct Page 263 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct Page 265 2 about the hazards of asbestos is not in accord 2 to do so. 3 with Naval principles and practices? 3 Q. Was the wire and cable that had the 4 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. 4 asbestos warning starting in 1972 sold to the 5 A. I'm saying whatever is in accord with 5 Navy after 1972? 6 Naval principles, what they allow by spec, what 7 they allow on a ship is what they allow. I don't 6 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. Go ahead. 7 A. No. 8 know how else to answer your question. It's 8 Q. How do you know? 9 naive to assume that somebody from the outside 9 A. It's my understanding that GE stopped 10 can dream up some sort of thing that they think 10 selling cable to the Navy in the mid-fifties. 11 should be done. Things are done in the Navy 12 according to the Navy way. That's the way it is 13 and that's the way it works. 11 Q. And it's your understanding that if 12 GE had put a warning on its wire and cable in 13 the 1950s the Navy would have taken it off? 14 Q. So a warning is in accord with Naval 15 principles and operations or is not in accord? 14 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. She never 15 said that. 16 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. 16 A. I never said that. 1 17 A. Well, ifs, what the Navy says is 18 acceptable in accord is what is done on the Navy 17 Q. The Navy wouldn't have allowed it? 18 A. The Navy would have done what the 19 property, the ship and the shore. The Navy is in 19 Navy wanted to do, and that's the way it is. 20 control. The Navy is in control of the 20 Q. And I'm asking you, if GE had ; 21 workplace, they're in control of the premises, 22 they're in control of the people. 21 requested of the Navy that they wanted to put an 22 asbestos warning on its wire and cable product, 23 Q. Did GE ever place a warning on any of 23 it's your opinion that the Navy would not have 24 its asbestos-containing products or any 24 allowed that? 5 25 equipment on which any equipment went non-Navy? 25 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. ; PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 67 (Pages 262 to 265) _ Page 266 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct Page 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 A. If we look back in time at their 3 role, there would have been no reason. We know 2 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. 3 A. We know there would have been no 4 now there was no reason to put the warning on 4 reason to do so. We know that. There wouldn't 5 the wire and cable ever, but, certainly, back in 5 have been a reason to put the warning on it 6 the 1950s there was no reason to suspect. All 6 ever. But, as I said before, the Navy being in 7 the levels were in appropriate PELs, asbestos 7 control of its environment and specing out 8 was being handled responsibly at the time, and 8 exactly how they want things and how they want 9 there would have been no reason to put the label 9 everything, things have to be done according to 10 on to begin with, but, as I said before, 10 their specs. 11 whatever would be speced out by the Navy and 11 Q. Was there a hazard of asbestos 12 allowed to be on the premises was that which 12 disease from the use of 100 percent asbestos 13 would be ultimately in the Navy. 13 cement at any point in time? 14 Q. And your opinion is that the Navy 14 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. She's not 15 would not have allowed GE to put a warning on 15 being offered about that. She's not a 16 its wire and cable products in 1950? 16 physician. 17 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. This isn't a 17 Q. You don't have an opinion on that 18 wire and cable case. 18 question? 19 MR. KRISTAL: I understand. 19 MR. SPEZIALI: She's not being offered 20 MR. SPEZIALI: Why are we talking 20 for that purpose. 21 about wire and cable? 21 MR. KRISTAL: Okay. 22 Q. Go ahead. 22 Q. Do you have an opinion? 23 A. Could you kindly repeat that? 23 A. I really wasn't prepared to deal with 24 Q. I'm not asking you whether a warning 24 that today, so, as I sit here today, I haven't 25 should or shouldn't have been on wire and cable 25 thought about that. 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct Page 267 1 _ Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct Page 269 2 in the 1950s. I'm asking if it's your opinion if 2 Q. If a manufacturer of raw asbestos 3 GE requested the Navy to put a warning on its 3 fiber was supplying the Navy and wanted to put a 4 asbestos-containing wire and cable your opinion 4 warning on the burlap bags in the 1930s, 5 is the Navy would not have allowed it? 5 forties, fifties, or sixties, are you saying the 6 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. 6 Navy wouldn't have allowed that manufacturer to 7 Q. Is that your opinion, yes or no? 7 put a warning about asbestos? 8 A. My answer is what I can give you. 8 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. 9 Q. Is your answer yes or no? 9 A. What I can tell you is that whatever 10 A. It's not a yes or no question. 10 got, whatever stayed with that ship would have 11 Q. I'm asking, in your opinion, would 11 only been allowed by Navy spec. So, you know, 12 the Navy have allowed it? 12 whether they brought on the bags and thew them 13 A. It's not a yes or no. 13 off and they didn't stay, I don't know. All I 14 Q. The Navy would have allowed it or 14 know is what stays on that ship is according to 15 wouldn't have allowed it. There's not too many 15 Navy spec and that's the way it is. 16 answers here. 16 Q. My question is whether you have an 17 MR. SPEZIALI: Answer how you feel 17 opinion as to whether a warning would have been 18 appropriate. 18 allowed on a bag of 100 percent asbestos fiber 19 A. I worked for the Navy. They spec out 19 if it was supplied to the Navy at any point in 20 what they want and how they want it, and that's 20 time? 21 what ultimately is used by the Navy. 21 MR. SPEZIALI: Same objection. 22 Q. So you don't know if the Navy would 22 A. I have an opinion as to what would 23 or wouldn't have allowed GE to put a warning on 24 its wire and cable product that contained 23 be, what would stay on that ship and what would 24 be allowed to stay on that ship, and that is 25 asbestos? 25 that which is speced out as far as speced out PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 68 (Pages 266 to 269) Page 270 Page 272 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 bags are concerned. 2 ships. And to think otherwise -- 3 Q. How would you know - 3 Q. Do you know what a turbine technical 4 A. I'm not done. 4 manual is? 5 MR. SPEZIALI: Go ahead and finish 5 A. If you're talking about a manual that 6 your answer. 6 may or may not accompany a piece of metal 7 A. I do know that what stays on the ship 7 equipment like a turbine, yes. 8 is that which is according to military spec and 8 Q. Do you know whether or not GE 9 is approved by the Navy. 9 supplied with its turbines technical manuals for 10 Q. If there was on a ship a bag of 100 10 Navy turbines? 11 percent asbestos cement that was used for 11 A. My understanding is that the Navy 12 repairing insulation that was on a turbine and 12 speced out, and, if the Navy requested a manual, 13 the manufacturer of that 100 percent asbestos 13 then GE, you know, they worked it out with the 14 cement in the 1930s, forties, titties or sixties 14 Navy, would supply it. But that was done at the 15 had requested of the Navy that they want to put 15 request of the Navy. It was part of a contract. IS a warning about asbestos on that bag of 100 16 It was something that they paid for. 17 percent asbestos cement, is it your opinion that 17 Q. I want you to assume that the Navy 18 the Navy would not have allowed that? 18 requested GE to supply technical manuals with 19 MR. SPEZIALI: Same objection. 19 its materials. All right? 20 A. The Navy would allow what they allow 21 by spec. 22 Q. And I'm asking you if a manufacturer 20 A. That's not the case always, but if 21 you want me to assume it for now. 22 Q. Is it sometimes the case? 23 requested to do that would the Navy not have 24 allowed them to do that? 25 A. You're talking about the 23 A. My understanding is it's not, a 24 manual is not always requested from the 25 manufacturer, in this case GE. It depended on 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct Page 271 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct Page 273 2 manufacturer? 3 Q. I'm talking about the manufacturer. 4 A. Of that particular cement? 2 the contract that the Navy had with GE. If they 3 paid extra they got a manual. Whatever they 4 worked out. It was all done by contract. 5 Q. Yes. 5 Q. I want you to assume we're dealing 6 A. That asbestos product? 6 with a contract which the Navy requested a 7 Q. Yes. 7 technical manual for its turbines. Are you with 8 A. I do know what ultimately would be on 8 me so far? 9 that ship would be that which would be allowed 9 A. I am. i 10 by the Navy. I've said that over and over. I 10 Q. If GE said to the Navy we would like : 11 don't know how much clearer I can make it. 11 to put in our technical manual a warning about 12 Q. But with respect to the bag of cement 13 that's on the ship to be used for repairs, you 14 don't know whether the Navy would or wouldn't 12 the hazards of asbestos insulation that we know ; 13 about on our turbine, are you saying the Navy : 14 would not have allowed that? 15 have approved it, the use of the warning at any 16 point in time? 15 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. 16 A. When you say "a warning," what kind 17 MR. SPEZIALI: Same objection. 17 of warning are you talking about? A warning 18 A. Well, as regards to the manufacture 18 doesn't tell somebody how to work with something 19 of that asbestos-containing cement product, 19 safely. What is involved in a warning, and, 20 maybe, maybe not. What I said was what stays on 20 rather, what is involved in a health and safety 21 the ship is that which is allowed by the Navy 21 situation is an assessment by a health and 22 because the Navy runs their ships and their 22 safety professional because there are a myriad 23 shore. Because the Navy has certain procedures 24 that have to be followed, the Navy only allows 23 of factors that can be involved. There is no one 24 size fits all safety warning or safety label 25 certain things, and that's what is done on 25 that can be put in a manual on anything that PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 69 (Pages 270 to 273) 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct Page 274 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct Page 276 2 would apply in various situations. In fact, that 2 people who have control of the environment are 3 can be downright dangerous. 3 the ones that can look at a health and safety 4 You can have situations where you're 4 situation in its totality. Nothing can be taken 5 telling somebody the wrong thing because they 5 out of context and just looked at as a single 6 can be working with things that could interact 6 type of item. There are a myriad of factors that 7 and be harmful and cause serious harm to the 7 are involved on ships that can cause serious 8 person. So it's the health and safety 8 harm, and all those need to be addressed. 9 professional people who have control of the 9 MR. KRISTAL: To the extent I need to 10 environment who are the ones who are qualified 10 do it, I move to strike the non-responsive 11 to make determinations and to devise certain 11 portion o f that answer. 12 measures so that people are safe in different 12 Why don't we break with the agreement 13 situations. 13 we need to get a whole host of materials. 14 MR. SPEZIALI: It's five after five. 14 MR. SPEZIALI: I'm going to ask you to 15 MR. KRISTAL: Let me just finish. 15 make a specific request, and I'll tell you 16 MR. SPEZIALI: She has to catch an 16 why. Some I think we're not going to have 17 airplane. 17 any problem. Some I just can't sit here and 18 Q. If GE had requested of the Navy that 18 agree to. 19 they want to put information in their technical 20 manual that the use of asbestos-containing 19 MR. KRISTAL: It will be reflected in 20 the transcript. 21 insulation on their turbines may cause disease, 21 MR. SPEZIALI: Let me know. 22 are you saying that the Navy would not have 22 MR. KRISTAL: When you get your copy 23 allowed that? 24 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. 25 A. That the use of their turbines may 23 it will list the request and the page. 24 MR. SPEZIALI: I'm probably not going 25 to agree to all of them. Page 275 Page 277 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 cause asbestos? 2 MR. KRISTAL: That's fine. You will 3 Q. Listen to my question. You missed my 3 have the universe of what I requested 4 question. GE wanted to put information in the 4 through the transcript. 5 technical manual that the use of 5 MR. SPEZIALI: For purposes of teeing 6 asbestos-containing insulation on its turbine 6 up a motion we can go that route. That's 7 could pose a hazardous disease. Are you saying 7 fine. 8 that the Navy would not have allowed GE to do 8 Q. Thank you. I hope it wasn't as 9 that? 9 horrible as it could have been. 10 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. 10 A. Veiy nice to meet you. 11 A. I never heard of one manufacturer 11 (Deposition Concluded. 12 warn of another manufacturer. 12 Time Noted: 5:10 p.m.) 13 Q. I'm not asking if you've heard of 13 14 that. 14 15 A. GE wouldn't be privy to all the ins 15 16 and outs. It's absurd. 16 17 Q. I'm asking if the Navy would or would 17 18 not have allowed that, in your opinion? 18 19 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. 19 20 A. Maybe, maybe not. 20 21 Q. Okay. 21 22 A. What I can say is that I have never 22 23 seen one manufacturer warn about another 23 24 manufacturer's product. That may or may not, as 24 25 I said, the health and safety professionals 25 PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 70 (Pages 274 to 277) Page 278 1 2 3 4 5 C E R T I F I C A T I O N OF WI T N E S S 6 7 I have read the foregoing transcript of my 8 deposition and find it to be true and 9 accurate to the best of my knowledge and 10 belief. 11 12 13 MARJORIE A. DRUCKER 14 15 16 Sworn and subscribed to before me on this 17 ________day o f__________________ , 2004 18 __ ______________________________ _ 19 Notary Public 20 My Commission Expires_________________ _ 21 22 23 24 25 Page 279 1 2 CERTIFICATE 3 4 STATE OF NEW YORK ) 5 COUNTY OF NEW YORK ) 6 7 I, ELEANOR SEKULIC, a Notary Public of the 8 State of New York, do hereby certify that the 9 foregoing deposition of MARJORIE A. DRUCKER was 10 taken before me on June 3,2004. 11 The said witness was duly sworn before the 12 commencement of her testimony, the said 13 testimony was taken stenographically by myself 14 and then transcribed. The within transcript is a 15 true record of the said deposition. 16 I am not connected by blood or marriage 17 with any of the said parties, nor interested 18 directly or indirectly in the matter in 19 controversy, nor am I in the employ of any of 20 the Counsel. 21 22 Dated:___________________ 23 24 ___________________________ 25 ELEANOR SEKULIC PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 71 (Pages 278 to 279)