Document 99XbaNp6Zz46oL8pagk6ea9q5

FILE NAME: Johnson & Johnson (JAJ) DATE: 2017 Aug 15 DOC#: JAJ016 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Legal - Deposition of Dr. John Hopkins Part 1 Page 1 1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES 2 3 TINA HERFORD and DOUGLAS HERFORD, 4 Plaintiffs 5 vs Case No. BC646315 6 AT&T CORP., a subsidiary of AT&T INC. and its subsidiary PACIFIC BELL 7 TELEPHONE COMPANY, et al., 8 Defendants. 9 10 VIDEO DEPOSITION OF DR. JOHN HOPKINS 11 Day 1 12 Tuesday, August 15, 2017 13 AT: 10:17 am 14 15 Taken at: 16 Shook Hardy & Bacon LLP 25 Old Broad Street 17 London EC2N 1HQ United Kingdom 18 19 Court Reporter: DEIRDRA JORDAN 20 21 22 23 24 25 Job No. 2657967 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 2 Page 4 1 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY 1 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY LAW DIVISION - MIDDLESEX COUNTY LAW DIVISION - MIDDLESEX COUNTY 2 2 3 DAVID CHARLES ETHERIDGE and 4 DARLENE PASTORE ETHERIDGE, 5 Plaintiffs, 6 vs Docket No. MID-L-0932-17 AS 7 BRENNTAG NORTH AMERICA, INC. 8 (sued individually and as successor-in-interest to 9 MINERAL PIGMENT SOLUTIONS, INC. and as successor-in-interest to 10 WHITTAKER CLARK & DANIELS, INC.) et al., 11 Defendants. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 IRMAVERDOLOTTI, 4 Plaintiff, 5 vs Docket No. MID-L-5973-16 AS 6 BRENNTAG NORTH AMERICA, INC. 7 (sued individually and as successor-in-interest to 8 MINERAL PIGMENT SOLUTIONS, INC. and as successor-in-interest to 9 WHITTAKER CLARK & DANIELS, INC.) et al., 10 Defendants. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY LAW DIVISION - MIDDLESEX COUNTY 2 3 RONALD MARTIN TEUSCHER and 4 SHANNON TEUSCHER, 5 Plaintiffs, 6 vs Docket No. MID-L-7249-16 AS 7 BRENNTAG NORTH AMERICA, INC. 8 (sued individually and as successor-in-interest to 9 MINERAL PIGMENT SOLUTIONS, INC. and as successor-in-interest to 10 WHITTAKER CLARK & DANIELS, INC.) et al., 11 Defendants. 12 _______________ 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 3 1 APPEARANCES 2 Appearing for the Plaintiffs: 3 SIMON GREENSTONE PANATIER BARTLETT, PC BY: CHRIS PANATIER, ESQ. 4 BY: LEAH C. KAGAN, ESQ. 3232 McKinney Avenue, Suite 610 5 Dallas, Texas 75204 214.276.7680 6 cpanatier@sgpblaw.com lkagan@sgpblaw.com 7 8 Appearing for the Defendant Johnson & Johnson: 9 TUCKER ELLIS LLP BY: SHARLA J. FROST, ESQ. 10 405 Main Street, Suite 500 Houston, Texas 77002 11 972.537.4205 sharla.ffost@tuckerellis.com 12 13 Appearing for the Defendant Johnson & Johnson: 14 SHOOK HARDY & BACON LLP BY: KATHLEEN FRAZIER, ESQ. 15 JPMorgan Chase Tower 600 Travis Street, Suite 3400 16 Houston, Texas 77002-2926 713.227.8008 17 kfrazier@shb.com 18 19 Appearing for the Defendant Whittaker Clark & Daniels: HOAGLAND LONGO MORAN DUNST & DOUKAS LLP 20 BY: MARC S. GAFFREY, ESQ. 40 Paterson Street, PO Box 480 21 New Brunswick, New Jersey 08903 732.545.4717 22 mgaffiey@hoaglandlongo.com 23 24 25 Page 5 2 (Pages 2 - 5 ) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 1 A P P E A R A N C E S...(continued) 2 Attending via telephone: LEVY KNIGSBERG LLP 3 BY. MOSHE MAIMON, ESQ. BY: DANIEL LATERRA, ESQ. 4 800 Third Avenue, 1Ith Floor New York, New York 10022 5 212.605.6200 mmaimon@levylaw.com 6 dlaterra@levylaw.com (For Plaintiffs in the Lanzo matter) 7 8 RAWLE & HENDERSON LLP 9 BY; WILLIAM T. POLASKI, ESQ. Henry W. Oliver Building 10 535 Smithiield Street, Suite 1000 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15222 11 412.281.5000 william.polasld@rawle.com 12 (For Cyprus Amax Minerals Company and Imeiys Talc America in NJ cases) 13 14 15 HAWKINS PARNELL THACKSTON & YOUNG LLP BY: OLIVER BUNDY, ESQ. 16 455 S. Figueroa, Suite 3200 Los Angeles, California 90071*1651 17 213.486.8043 obundy@hptylaw.com 18 (For Elizabeth Arden hie., Revlon Inc., Bristol-Myers Squibb Company and Yves Saint 19 Laurent America, Inc. in Herford case) 20 21 FOLEY & MANSFIELD BY: AMADEA GROSECLOSE, ESQ. 22 300 South Grand Avenue, Suite 2800 Los Angeles, California 90071 23 213.283.2100 mgroseclose@foteymansfield.com 24 (For Unilever United States, Inc. and Conopco, Inc. in Herford case) 25 Pag6 Page 8 1 A P P E A R A N C E S...(contmued) 2 Attending via telephone: MONTGOMERY McCRACKEN WALKER & RHOADS, LLP 3 BY: RONALD E. HURST, ESQ. 123 South Broad Street 4 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19109 215.772.7242 5 rhurst@inmwr.com (For Brenntag Specialties in Teuscher case) 6 7 DRINKER BIDDLE & REATH LLP BY: JACK N. FROST, ESQ. 8 600 Campus Drive Florham Park, New Jersey 07932-1047 9 973.549.7338 jack.fiost@dbr.com 10 (For Johnson & Johnson in all but Herford) 11 FOLEY & MANSFIELD 12 BY: SEANA AZAD, ESQ. 300 Lakeside Drive, Suite 1900 13 Oakland, California 94612 510.590.9511 14 sazad@foleymansfield.com (For specially appearing Whittaker Clark 15 & Daniels Inc in Herford case) 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 VIDEOGRAPHER: LINDA FLEET 25 1 A P P E A R A N C E S...(continued) 2 Attending via telephone: ORRICK, HERRINGTON & SUTCLIFFE LLP 3 BY: PETER BICKS, ESQ. BY: ANNE MALIK, ESQ. 4 1152 15th Street, N.W. Washington, DC 2000S 5 202-339-8458 pbicks@orrick.com 6 amalik@orridc.com (For Johnson & Johnson) 8 HARRIS BEACH PLLC BY: MATTHEW QUIRIN, ESQ. 9 100 Wall Street New York, New York 10005 10 212.912.3505 mquirin@HarrisBeach.com 11 (For GlaxoSmithKline in Teuscher case) 12 COSM1CH SIMMONS & BROWN, PLLC 13 BY: LaKEYSHA GREER ISAAC, ESQ. BY: LUCY SAVORGNAN, ESQ. 14 100 Vision Drive, Suite 200 Jackson, Mississippi 39211 15 601.863.2100 lakeysha@cs-law.com 16 lsavorgnan@cs-Iaw.com (For Shulton, Inc., sued individually and as 17 successor to The Shulton Group and/or Shulton, Inc.; The Procter & Gamble Company, 18 sued as successor-in-interest to The Shulton Group and/or Shulton, Inc.; and Wyeth Holdings 19 LLC, f/k/a Wyeth Holdings Corporation, f/k/a American Cyanamid Company, sued individually 20 and as successor-in-interest to The Shulton Group and/or Shulton, Inc.) 21 22 KING & SPALDING LLP BY: JULIA ROMANO, ESQ. 23 633 West Fifth Street, Suite 1700 Los Angeles, California 90071 24 213.443.4365 jromano@kslaw.com 25 (For Johnson & Johnson in Herford case) Page 7 Page 9 1 (On the record at 10:17 am) 2 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now on the record. My 3 name is Linda Fleet, representing Veritext. The date 4 today is August 15,2017, and the time is approximately 5 10:17 am. This deposition is being held at Shook Hardy 7 & Bacon LLP, 25 Old Broad Street, London EC2N 1HQ, 8 United Kingdom. The caption of this case is Herford, 9 Verdolotti, Teuscher and Etheridge versus Johnson & 10 Johnson. The name of the witness is John Hopkins. 11 Could the attorneys present please identify 12 yourselves and state whom they represent. 13 MR PANATIER: Chris Panatier and Leah Kagan 14 for the Plaintiffs. 15 MS FROST: Sharia Frost for Johnson & 16 Johnson. 17 MS FRAZIER: Kathleen Frazier for Johnson & 18 Johnson. 19 MRGAFFREY: And Marc Gaffrey, Hoagland Longo 20 Moran Dunst & Doukas, for Whittaker Clark & Daniels. 21 VIDEOGRAPHER: Our court reporter, Deirdra 22 Jordan, will swear in the witness and we can proceed. 23 JOHN HOPKINS, 24 having been duly sworn, 25 testified as follows: Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. 718-983-1234 3 (Pages 6 - 9 ) A Veritext Company Page 10 Page 12 1 M R PANATIER: A nd before we - before I start 1 A I understand that, yes. 2 asking questions - this is Chris Panatier for the 2 Q A ll right. 3 Plaintiffs --w e've reached an agreem ent w ith counsel 3 N ow , you're the corporate representative. 4 for Johnson & Johnson that all objections w ill be 4 Can you just explain in your own words w hy you are 5 reserved until the tim e that designations are m ade for 5 serving as the corporate representative, as opposed to 6 playing at trial, w ith the exception o f any harassm ent 6 som ebody else? 7 o f the witness that I m ay do or privileged objections. 7 A Okay. M y career - - 1 started with Johnson & 8 Is that agreeable? 8 Johnson in 1976 as a toxicologist. Prior to that, I'd 9 M S FR O ST : That is correct, and to m ake sure 9 w orked for the com pany that's now G laxoSm ithK line in 10 that it is clear, because the deposition is being taken 10 toxicology o f pharm aceuticals. 11 in connection w ith cases p en d in g in tw o separate 11 I worked for the U K company o f Johnson & 12 ju risdictions, w here there are tw o separate sets o f 12 Jo h n so n from 1976 and m y expertise and back g ro u n d w as 13 standards fo r the objections, it is th e agreem ent o f 13 in the safety, am ongst o th er things, o f talc and talc 14 th e parties to d efer the objections until th e tim e th at 14 products. 15 eith er the w ritten transcript o r the videotape are to 15 I stayed w ith Johnson & Johnson based in the 16 be used in connection w ith the trial in order to ensure 16 U K until 1995 and then m oved to the U S for four years 17 th at n eith er p a rty has a procedural issue in connection 17 to the end o f 1998. 18 w ith the ph rasin g or the use o f the tran scrip t o r the 18 I then m oved to France -- Johnson & Johnson 19 objections. 19 in France, and I left the com pany in 2000. 20 M R PA N A TIER: That's agreeable. Okay. 20 Following from that, I stayed as a consultant 21 EXAM INATION BY M R PANATIER: 21 fo r a few er hours a w eek until 2011 for the Johnson & 22 Q A ll right, sir. A re you ready to go? 22 Johnson European companies. 23 A lam . 23 Q Okay. 24 Q Okay. 24 A So m y background, to answ er your question, is 25 Can you go ahead and ju st state your name. 25 that I've a good understanding o f the safety o f talc. Page 11 Page 13 1 A M y name is John Hopkins. 1 Q A ll right. 2 Q A ll right, and M r --it's D r H opkins, isn't it? 2 So you're not currently em ployed by Johnson & 3 A It is, yes. 3 Johnson; right? 4 Q A ll right. 4 A T hat is correct. 5 N ow , D r Hopkins, you understand you're being 5 Q A nd you haven't been em ployed by Johnson & 6 produced as the corporate representative for Johnson & 6 Johnson since the year 2000; correct? 7 Johnson in this deposition? 7 A Correct. 8 A I understand that, yes. 8 Q A ll right. 9 Q A nd you understand that m eans that you are the 9 W hen in 2000 did you leave? 10 --for purposes o f these cases, you are the face o f 10 A April. 11 Jo hnson & Johnson; y o u und erstan d that? 11 Q Okay. 12 A I understand that, yes. 12 Y ou have been a private consultant since you 13 Q And that your answers are the answers o f 13 left in A pril o f 2000; fair? 14 Johnson & Johnson; correct? 14 A Correct. I am a consulting toxicologist, yes. 15 A Correct. 15 Q A nd you actually serve as an expert witness in 16 Q A ll right. 16 various cases; fair? 17 Now , you are the corporate representative in 17 A I have served as expert witness, yes. 18 th e H erfo rd case; do yo u und erstan d that? 18 Q Okay. 19 A I do, yes. 19 Johnson & Johnson has retained you as an 20 Q Y ou are the corporate representative in the 20 expert witness in som e o f its cases; true? 21 Etheridge case? 21 A N ot directly with Johnson & Johnson, but via 22 A I understand that. 22 the attorneys for Johnson & Johnson. 23 Q The Teuscher case? 23 Q Okay. 24 A I understand that, yes. 24 So the lawyers who represent Johnson & 25 Q A nd the Verdolotti case? 25 Johnson have retained you in cases involving Johnson & 4 (Pages 10-13) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 1 Johnson? Page 14 1 executives, right, currently? Page 16 2 A T hat is correct. 2 A Yes. 3 Q A ll right. 4 A n d th ere y o u 're testify in g as an ex p ert 3 Q A nd they have executives in the U nited States; 4 right? 5 toxicologist? 5 A Correct. 6 A In som e cases. M ost cases, yes. 6 Q I m ean, w here is the headquarters o f Johnson & 7 Q A ll right. 7 Johnson, worldwide? 8 H ave you ever testified on b eh alf o f an 8 A It's in N ew Brunsw ick, in the State o f N ew 9 individual, a plaintiff? 9 Jersey. 10 A No. 10 Q A ll right. N ew Jersey in the US; right? 11 Q Okay. 11 A Correct, yes. 12 A b o u t h o w m a n y tim e s h a v e y o u s e r v e d a s a r 12 Q Now, the company that you worked for over here 13 e x p e rt w itn ess fo r Jo h n so n & Jo h n so n ? 13 in E n gland w as w hat? 14 A I'd calcu late ab o u t six. 14 A Johnson & Johnson Ltd. 15 Q A ll right. 15 Q All right. 16 W ere those all in cases involving talc or 16 A nd w hat is the com pany in the US called? 17 o th er pro d u cts? 17 A Johnson & Johnson. 18 A T hey w ere all involving talc. 18 Q Okay. A ll right. 19 Q O kay, and w ere they all involving the 19 Now , Johnson & Johnson has subsidiaries 20 allegation th at talc had played a role in causing 20 w orldwide; correct? 21 ovarian cancer? 21 A That is correct, yes. 22 A N o, no t all, no. 22 Q A nd about how m any employees worldwide? 23 Q O kay. A ll right. 23 A I don't have that up to date figure. 24 So som e o f them w ere? 24 Q Okay. 25 A Som e o f them w ere. 25 W hat is your not up to date figure? Page 15 Page 17 1 Q A nd what were the other ones involved with? 1 A It is m any thousands. 2 A Someone had a pulmonary problem. A lung 2 Q Tens o f thousands? 3 problem. 3 A Tens o f thousands. 4 Q A ll right. 4 Q Right. 5 W hat w as the lung problem? 5 A That's m y understanding, yes. 6 A W ell, it w asn't actually related to talc. It 6 Q Okay. 7 was later diagnosed as a sarcoma, which is --was not 7 A nd Johnson & Johnson is one o f the biggest 8 talc-related -- 8 com panies in the world, is it not? 9 Q Right. 9 A It is one o f the largest companies by value, 10 A -- w hen the m edical exam iner looked at it. 10 yes, yes. 11 Q W ell, in any o f the cases that you've 11 Q A nd it's certainly one o f the largest by gross 12 testified, d id y o u m aintain the o pinion th at Johnson & 12 revenues; correct? 13 Jo h n son's pro d u c ts h a d p lay ed an y role in the 13 A T hat's p ro bably correct. It w o u ld be in the 14 d ev elopm ent o f th at person's disease? 14 top -- top ten, top 20, yeah. 15 A M y opinion w as and still is that no Johnson & 15 Q Right. 16 Johnson talc products have ever played a role in a 16 W ho w ould some o f their company be? 17 p erso n 's disease. 17 A W ould you repeat the question? 18 Q All right. 18 Q Sure. W ho w ould som e o f Johnson & Johnson's 19 I take it that here today your opinion is 19 com pany be, in term s o f the top ten? 20 that talc, as sold by Johnson & Johnson and used by 20 A Okay. Com petitor companies? Yeah, other 21 Johnson & Johnson custom ers, has never played a role in 21 com panies, com panies like Exxon, GlaxoSm ithK line, 22 the developm ent in any person's disease; is that fair? 22 large - Am azon, Google. Yeah. 23 A That is m y opinion, yes. 24 Q Okay. 23 Q Okay. 24 Now, we came here to London to take your 25 Now, certainly Johnson & Johnson has 25 deposition and w e've enjoyed it so far. 5 (Pages 14-17) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 18 Page 20 1 Are you available to travel to the United 1 A Yes. 2 States to testify in these trials? 2 Q You no longer have possession? 3 A In theory, yes. 3 A I do not. 4 Q Okay. Now, what does that mean? 4 Q Okay. 5 A W ell, it w ould depend on what m y schedule was, 5 A nd how long had you had them in your 6 you know, in a particular case. 6 possession? 7 Q Okay. 7 A Since about 1999. 8 Now, do you have a valid travel passport? 8 Q Okay. 9 A Yes. 9 A Yes. 10 Q Okay. 10 Q So from 1999 until 2017 last w eek -- 11 W e had been told you did not, but you do? 11 A Yes. 12 A Yes. 12 Q --you had som e Johnson & Johnson's Baby Pow der 13 Q Okay. A ll right. 13 containers? 14 MS FROST: For the record, that 14 A T hat is correct, yes. 15 rep resentation d id n o t com e from us. S o I d o n't know . 15 Q Okay. 16 M R PA NATIER: It didn't com e from you. 16 A bout how m any did you have? 17 M S FRO ST: It didn't com e from me. 17 A Old, historic samples, about half a dozen. 18 M R PA N A T IE R : N o, it d id n o t com e from you. 18 Q Okay. 19 M S FRA ZIER: W ell, for the record, I'll say 19 A I think it was, yeah. 20 that D r H opkins' passport w as expirinjg -- 20 Q All right. 21 THE W ITNESS: Yes. 21 A nd w hy do you not have them anymore? 22 M S FRAZIER: -- earlier this year, and so he 22 A B ecause they've been shipped to Johnson & 23 had to renew it, and there w as a several w eek tim e 23 Johnson in the U nited States. 24 period in w hich he could not travel. 24 Q A ll right. 25 TH E W ITNESS: That is correct. There w as a 25 D id you just decide to ship them there, or Page 19 Page 21 1 short w indow w hen I did no t have a passport. 1 were you told to ship them there? 2 B Y M R PA N A TIER : 2 M S FR O ST : A nd I'm going to object based on 3 Q W hen w as that? 3 attorney client privilege. 4 A T he spring o f this year, yeah. 4 BY M R PANATIER: 5 Q Okay. 5 Q Okay. So don't tell m e anything the lawyers 6 A Yeah. 6 have said, and that rule goes for the w hole deposition; 7 Q A ll rig h t. B u t y o u 're g o o d n o w ? 7 okay? 8 A Yes. 8 Y ou understand that, I'm sure? 9 Q R ight. 9 A Yes. 10 A F or another ten years. 10 Q Did you up and decide to just ship them there, 11 Q Okay. Good. Okay. 11 o r w as it som ething else? 12 D o y o u p e r s o n a l l y m a in ta in o r h a v e in y o u r 12 A It w as som ething else. 13 p o s s e s s io n c o n ta in e r s o f J o h n s o n 's B a b y P o w d e r ? 13 Q Okay. 14 A N o , I d o n 't, no. 14 So you've shipped them back to headquarters? 15 Q Okay. 15 A Yes. 16 D o y o u h a v e c o n tro l o v e r so m e n u m b e r o f 16 Q To w hom did you ship them? 17 Jo h n so n 's B a b y P o w d e r p ro d u c ts? 17 A I gave - - 1 gave the sam ples, or the samples 18 A I d o n 't an y m o re, no. 18 w ere given to a Shook H ardy B acon adm inistrative 19 Q Okay. 19 assistant. 20 A D o not. 20 Q Okay. 21 Q W hen did you? 21 So you sent them to the lawyers for J&J? 22 A U ntil recently. 22 A I believe that was the case, yes. 23 Q R eally? So how recently? 23 Q A ll right. 24 A T his past w eek. 24 So you had them for about 18 years or so? 25 Q T his p ast w eek? 25 A T hey were --yeah, they w ere locked aw ay in m y 6 (Pages 18 - 21) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 22 Page 24 1 attic. I'd not looked at them for that tim e, yes. 1 Q Okay. 2 Q Okay. 2 To your knowledge, no one else took them out 3 N ow , for those h alf a dozen or so containers, 3 o f your attic, played with them - 4 did you m ark them in any way so that we know they came 4 A No. 5 from you if ultim ately w e get them from -- 5 Q - and put them back? 6 A W ell, each o f them have an address, w hich is 6 A N o, no. They w ere locked aw ay in the attic. 7 Johnson & Johnson, England, w hich identifies them. 7 Q A ll right. All right. 8 They each have a date -- 1946 or w hatever -- 8 D oes Johnson & Johnson believe that this is 9 on the bottom, yes. 9 an im portant case? 10 Q Okay. 10 A Yes. 11 A They're identifiable. 11 Q Okay. 12 Q Okay. 12 A nd that someone has claim ed they got 13 A nd can you tell me - you threw out the date 13 m esotheliom a b ecause o f asbestos in y o u r talc is pretty 14 1946 - can y ou tell m e the approxim ate date ranges o f 14 serious; right? 15 th ese products? 15 A It w ould be if it were true, yes. 16 A Yeah. W ell, they're not exact to the year. 16 Q Okay. 17 T hey're d ated late 1940s, early 1950s, late 1950s, an d 17 Y ou've already decided it's not true; 18 o n e w ith an ex act date o f O ctober, 1966. 18 correct? 19 Q Okay. 19 A I have read the literature relating to the 20 So these are all several decades old? 20 safety o f talc, and that is m y opinion. 21 A They are, yes. 21 Q Okay. 22 Q Okay. 22 It is your opinion that any talc sold by 23 A Yes. 23 Johnson & Johnson could not have played a role in 24 Q A nd w hy did you have them in the first place? 24 causing anybody's m esotheliom a; right? 25 A Very sim ply, the facility in the U K w as being 25 A That is m y opinion, yes. Page 23 Page 25 1 closed - in fact, it's totally flattened -- and I ju st 1 Q Okay. 2 thought it was nice to take samples before they were 2 A nd w hen I say "any talc", I'm talking about 3 put in the dumpster. 3 any talc products sold by Johnson & Johnson; do you 4 Q Okay. 4 understand that? 5 A nd those sam ples that were in this facility, 5 A I understand that, yes. 6 as o f 1999 w hen you took them , w here had they been in 6 Q Right. 7 the facility? 7 A nd so, because this is an im portant case, 8 A They were in a little glass cabinet, which was 8 did you go through and review all o f the approxim ately 9 the museum, if you like, o f the research and 9 200,000 docum ents that w ere produced by J& J in this 10 developm ent group. 10 case? 11 Q Okay. 11 A I have reviewed m any hundreds - well, m any 12 A nd how long had they been there? 12 thousands o f docum ents in the last few w eeks -- 13 A Probably since the 1940s, 1950s. 13 Q Okay. 14 Q Okay. 14 A - w hich pertain to this case. 15 It was your exception that those w ere vintage 15 Q Okay. 16 sam ples o f Jo hnson's B aby P ow der? 16 A Yes. 17 A They were. 17 Q A nd about how long have you spent doing that? 18 Q Okay. 18 A Certainly m uch o f the last four weeks. 19 A And, as they were due to go to the dumpster, I 19 Q Now , in so far as you are not currently 20 rescued them. 20 employed by Johnson & Johnson, do you charge for your 21 Q A ll right. 21 tim e? 22 Y ou took 'em hom e and then you ju st kept them 22 A I don't charge Johnson & Johnson. I require 23 put away? 23 com pensation for m y tim e from the attorneys. 24 A They w ere -- they were locked away in the attic 24 Q Okay. 25 fo r the last 18 years, yes. 25 Is it your expectation that Johnson & Johnson 7 (Pages 22 - 25) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 26 1 w ill be paying the attorneys when they pay you? 1 Q Right. Page 28 2 A I w ould expect that, yes. 2 Those documents, w here did those come from? 3 Q All right. 3 A There's tw o sources. One, I have a large 4 So it's the law yers that pay your bill for 4 literature file o f m y own. Obviously, as a 5 your tim e, your com pensation, but you understand that 5 toxicologist, you m aintain a literature file on many 6 Johnson & Johnson reim burses the lawyers for that? 6 substances, including talc. So I've review ed those. 7 A W ell, I can only guess that. If there are 7 A nd in addition I've review ed those that were 8 other plaintiffs involved, then those plaintiffs m ay 8 identified to m e by the Johnson & Johnson attorneys. 9 also be involved in --in relationship w ith the 9 Q Okay. 10 attorneys. 10 W ere those - did the ones you looked at have 11 Q All right. 11 little B ates stam ps d ow n a t the bottom ? 12 W hat is the --w hat is the rate that you bill 12 A They did, yes. 13 a t for yo u r p rep aratio n tim e and/or y o u r testim ony 13 Q Okay. 14 tim e? 14 A O r they do, yes. 15 A It's the sam e rate, 300 U S per hour. 15 Q A ll right. 16 Q A nd do you charge US because these are filed in 16 W e'll talk about som e o f those docum ents 17 th e U n ited S tates? 17 today, and i f w e see a docum ent that y ou haven't 18 A I charge U S because it's easier for U S-based 18 seen --usu ally I'll ask y o u i f y ou've seen it - b ut 19 com panies to p a y in U S dollars. 19 i f you've seen one that you haven't seen and y ou need 20 Q A nd so far in preparation for your testim ony in 20 additional tim e to review, just let m e know; okay? 21 these four cases today, how m uch --how m any hours havf 21 A I w ill indeed. 22 you billed? 22 Q Right. 23 A I haven't actually billed any at this point. 23 N ow , let's talk a little bit about Johnson & 24 I'm expecting that there w ill be m aybe 18 days. 24 Johnson "com pany units", I call it, but I want to ask 25 Sixteen to 18 days. E ight hours a day. 25 you a little b it about this, how they're related. Page 27 Page 29 1 Q Okay. 1 So we all kind of speak in the vernacular as 2 So 16 or so hours a day tim es -- 2 "Johnson & Johnson", but there's various different 3 A No, 16 days. 3 companies, such as Johnson & Johnson Consumer Products 4 Q I m ean, I'm sorry, 16 days tim es eight hours a 4 Company; right? 5 day? 5 A Correct, yes. 6 A N ot even I can do 16 hours a day. 6 Q And there's, or has been, Johnson & Johnson 7 Q O h, I'm sure you could. 7 Baby Products Company? 8 B ut to m ake it clear, so for 16 days, 8 A That is correct, which is a -- it's a division 9 ap p roxim ately eight h o urs a day , yo u 'v e b e en w o rk in g on 9 of the Consumer Products Company. 10 - 10 Q Okay. 11 A On this particular case, yes. 11 So it's not a separate company; it's a 12 Q Right. 12 division of Johnson & Johnson Consumer Products 13 A Yes, yes. 13 Company? 14 Q A nd that's all $300 an hour? 14 A Currently it is, yes. 15 A Yes. 15 Q Okay. 16 Q As well as the tim e that you spend here today, 16 A Yeah. 17 to m o rro w a n d o n i f w e go? 17 Q Was Johnson & Johnson Baby Products Company 18 A That's included, I think, in the 1 6,18 days, 18 ever a separate -- a separate company? 19 yes. 19 A No, no. It's always been part of Johnson & 20 Q Okay. 20 Johnson. 21 Now, the docum ents that you reviewed, w as it 21 Q Okay. 22 your understanding that that was also part o f the 22 And then what's the relation between Johnson 23 universe o f docum ents that w as supplied to us in this 23 & Johnson and Johnson & Johnson Consumer Products 24 case? 24 Company? 25 A That is m y understanding, yes. 25 A The Consumer Products Company historical name 8 (Pages 26 - 29) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 1 is a division o f Johnson & Johnson. Page 30 1 Page 32 A --dangerous ingredients in Johnson's consum er 2 Q Okay. A ll right. 2 products. 3 A nd as you sit here today, do you know the 3 Q Okay. 4 net worth o f Johnson & Johnson? 4 A nd Johnson & Johnson agrees that baby powder 5 A I don't, no. I don't. 5 should never contain a carcinogen; fair? 6 Q Do you ow n any stock in any Johnson & Johnson 6 A Fair. 7 com pany currently? 7 Q Okay. 8 A I have historical stock from w hen I worked for 8 Sim ilarly, cosm etic talc products, not just 9 the company, yes. 9 designed for babies, but for instance Shower to Shower, 10 Q That you still have? 10 those shouldn't contain carcinogens, should they? 11 A I still have, yes. 11 A T hey should not. 12 Q Okay. 12 Q Okay. 13 A nd you don't have to tell m e the exact 13 Does Johnson & Johnson agree that cosmetic 14 num ber, but is it -- can you give m e som e ballpark on 14 talc products should never cause cancer? 15 h o w m uch y o u ow n? 15 A T hat is correct. 16 A Several thousand shares, as I recollect. 16 Q Okay. 17 Q Okay. 17 A Yes. 18 A Yes. 18 Q A nd does Johnson & Johnson agree that baby 19 Q Several thousand or several tens o f thousands? 19 products should never cause cancer? 20 A N o, no. Several thousand. 20 A T hat is correct, yes. 21 Q Several thousand. All right. 21 Q Okay. 22 Does Johnson & Johnson agree that baby 22 A nd this m ight sound sort o f obvious, but 23 products should not be dangerous to babies? 23 does Johnson & Johnson agree that cosmetic talc 24 A Yes, that is a statem ent I w ould agree with. 24 products should never actually kill their users? 25 Q Okay. 25 A Yes. Page 31 Page 33 1 Does Johnson & Johnson agree that baby 1 Q Okay. 2 products shouldn't contain carcinogens? 2 Does Johnson & Johnson agree that baby 3 A That's a statem ent I w ould agree with. 3 products shouldn't end up causing the death o f the 4 Q If they did contain a carcinogen, does Johnson 4 person who used them? 5 & Johnson agree that it should fully disclose any 5 A Yes. 6 dangerous or carcinogenous ingredients in its baby 6 Q Okay. 7 products? 7 If Johnson & Johnson ever became aware that 8 A W ell, w ould you define what you m ean by 8 their talc products contained anything that was 9 "disclose"? 9 carcinogenous, w hat w ould be the protocol for dealing 10 Q Sure. Tell people who are buying the product? 10 w ith that at J& J? 11 A Okay. 11 A M y feeling is that the product w ould be 12 W hen you buy a product, there's a label w hich 12 w ithdraw n. 13 lists the ingredients. So i f it's on th e ingredients, 13 Q Okay. 14 it's o n the ingredient list. 14 A nd that means a product recall; right? 15 Q W ell, this is m ore o f a slightly different 15 A Yes. 16 question, w hich is: if Johnson & Johnson w ere aware 16 Q A s w ell as a notification to the public; 17 that its baby products contained any dangerous 17 correct? 18 in gredient, th ey w o u ld disclose th at on the 18 A Yes. 19 ingredients; is th at fair? 19 Q Okay. 20 A That's --that's not unreasonable, if it 20 Johnson & Johnson agrees that asbestos is a 21 contained a dangerous ingredient. 21 carcinogen; correct? 22 Q Right. 22 A Johnson & Johnson, I am sure w ould agree that 23 You don't think it did? 23 asbestos is a carcinogen, although Johnson & Johnson 24 A I don't think there's a n y -- 24 does not sell asbestos and never has sold asbestos. 25 Q Okay. 25 Q Okay. I understand. 9 (Pages 30 - 33) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 34 Page 36 1 B u t h ere's the question: Jo h n so n & Jo h n so n 1 Q Right, and I understand that's --that's your 2 agrees th at asbestos is a carcinogen; correct? 2 opinion in this case. 3 A A sbestos is a recognized carcinogen, yes. 3 B ut I'm asking: if there is talc containing 4 Q A ll right. 4 asbestos, and you're saying that's not Johnson & 5 A n d Jo h n so n & Jo h n so n a g rees th a t a sb esto s 5 Johnson --I understand that --if there is talc 6 c a n cau se th e d isease m eso th elio m a; correct? T h ey 6 containing asbestos, that product would be a 7 d o n 't d is p u te th a t? 7 carcinogen; correct? 8 A T hey w ould no t dispute that. 8 A It could be a carcinogen. 9 Q Okay. 9 Again, it depends on the level. M edical 10 J o h n s o n & J o h n s o n a g re e s th e re is n o k n o w n 10 science has never defined w hat a safe level is. 11 s a f e le v e l o f e x p o s u r e to a s b e s to s ; c o r re c t? 11 A s I said before, w e've all been exposed to 12 A T h at is -- th at is debatable, an d I'll tell y o u 12 asbestos in the last 50 years, w idespread exposure in 13 w h y . 13 the streets, the sidew alks, public buildings, and w e're 14 B ecause asbestos has been -- as a 14 n ot all falling o ver w ith asbestos. 15 to x ic o lo g is t, a s b e s to s , w e k n o w , h a s b e e n u s e d in 15 So there is no doubt a safe level, but 16 public buildings, schools, brake linings, clutch 16 science has never defined w hat that safe level is. 17 linings, et cetera, fo r m any, m an y decades. 17 So there w ill be a level at w hich it is not 18 S o asb esto s is p re tty w e ll u b iq u ito u s. It's 18 carcinogenic. W e don't k n o w w h a t th at level is. 19 in th e a tm o s p h e re . It's in th e s id e w a lk s . It's o n th e 19 Q Okay. 20 streets. 20 W ell, then perhaps you and I can get on the 21 W e h a v e -- to x ic o lo g is t h a v e n e v e r d e fin e d 21 sam e page here. W hat you're saying is that there is a 22 w h a t a safe level is. 22 general low level background o f asbestos in our 23 Q So it w ould be true to say that there is no 23 environment? 24 k n ow n safe level o f exposure to asbestos? 24 A There is, indeed. 25 A T hat is correct. 25 Q Right. Page 35 Page 37 1 Q A ll right. 1 A nd w hat you're saying is that there's no 2 Have you spoken w ith any of Johnson & 2 evidence that that background level is a cause o f 3 Johnson's retained expert witnesses in these cases? 3 disease; fair? 4 A I have not. 4 A That is correct. 5 Q AH right. 5 Q Right. 6 D o you know who M icky G unter is? 6 Setting aside background, w e can agree that 7 A No. 7 there is no know n safe level above background for 8 Q D o you know w ho M atthew Sanchez is? 8 asbestos; correct? 9 A No. 9 A That's - that, again, is a debate that 10 I've read one o f his publications, but I've 10 toxicologists w ill have, but it's probably --there's 11 n ev er m et M r Sanchez. 11 a -- there's g ot to b e a p oint, and ev ery individual is 12 Q Okay. 12 different and w e're all exposed to different m aterials 13 So beyond reading a paper o f his, you don't 13 in o ur daily lives. 14 know him? 14 Some people react m ore strongly than others. 15 A I do not know him, no. 15 O thers w ill n ot react at all. 16 Q Okay. 16 So for some individuals, there could well be 17 D o you know if Johnson & Johnson has retained 17 a level above background w hich is hazardous, and that 18 eith er o f those individuals in these cases? 18 sam e level w ould not be a hazard to o ther people. 19 A I don't know that, no. 19 Q Right. 20 Q Johnson & Johnson agrees that talc containing 20 A It's a to x icologist debate. 21 asbestos is a carcinogen; correct? 21 B ut in this particular case, w hen w e talk 22 A If talc contained asbestos, it would possibly 22 about talc, as I've said before, there is no asbestos 23 be a carcinogen. 23 in Johnson's talc. 24 But Johnson & Johnson does not and has never 24 Q Okay, and I w ill --I promise you I w ill ask 25 sold talc containing asbestos. 25 you that question; okay? W e'll get to that. 10 (Pages 34 - 37) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 38 Page 40 1 But on this issue that you and I are talking 1 w hich pretty well refutes that - that assertion that 2 about, toxicologists such as yourself understand that 2 talc is a carcinogen at the IARC 2B level. 3 people are different and there are different individual 3 Q N ow , let's talk about IA RC for a moment. 4 susceptibilities to certain things that m ight cause a 4 Now , IARC is, as I said, the International 5 disease; right? 5 A gency for R esearch on Cancer, and you in fact applied 6 A That's a fair comment. 6 to be on their review panel for talc; correct? 7 Q Right. 7 A No. I put m y name forward as an observer at 8 So w hat m ight be enough to cause disease in 8 the IARC m eeting in 2000 -- 9 one person m ight not be enough to cause disease in 9 Q All right. 10 another; fair? 10 A --to observe that --the process. 11 A That's --that's a fair comm ent. 11 Q Johnson & Johnson and/or the CTFA put forward 12 A gain, it's an unknown. It's a hypothesis. 12 y o u r nam e, as w ell as several others; correct? 13 Q Right. 13 A Correct, yes. 14 A nd to the extent that Johnson & Johnson does 14 Q A nd IARC --IARC did not allow you to be an 15 n o t k n o w o f w h a t the safe level, i f any, o f asbestos 15 adviser; correct? O r an observer, correct? 16 is, if you have a product such as talc -- not your 16 A Observer, correct, yes. 17 talc, as far as you 're saying, b u t som ebody has talc 17 Q Okay. 18 a n d it has asbestos in it, it w o u ld b e w ise to e rr on 18 And in your own words, it was because you 19 th e side o f n o t selling th at to an ybody because w e 19 w ere "com prom ised" by y our industry ties; correct? 20 don't know w hat the safe level o f exposure w ould be; 20 A That is a possibility. 21 correct? 21 Q Okay. 22 A Again, it depends on the am ount o f talc. 22 A Yeah. Although, as an observer, you do no more 23 Y ou're com paring a hypothetical talc w hich 23 than sit and observe. Y ou don't have an input or a 24 m ight contain asbestos. Y ou've not defined how m uch 24 com m ent. 25 asbestos. 25 Q I understand, but it's - - 1 chose that word Page 39 Page 41 1 Is it m uch above background level? The kind 1 "com prom ised" because that's the w ord you used in your 2 o f level w e breathe w hen w e enter public buildings, 2 ow n emails. 3 w alk down the side walk in the street? Is it above 3 Do you agree that you stated that perhaps 4 that? Is it sim ilar to that? 4 they view ed you as being compromised because o f your 5 There's a lot o f hypothesis there. 5 ties to industry? 6 Q Okay. 6 A I think I u se d the w o rd "perhaps''. 7 A It's not a question that's easily answered. 7 Q "Perhaps compromised"? 8 Q W ell, you and I w ill try to go through that 8 A Perhaps. 9 w ith some o f the documents perhaps, and that will -- 9 Q Okay. 10 th at m ight help us out. 10 Asbestos should never, ever be in baby 11 B ut does Johnson & Johnson agree with the 11 p ow der; correct? 12 International A gency for R esearch on C ancer th at talc 12 A Correct. 13 co n taining asbestos is a carcinogen? 13 Q And, in fact, that's a Johnson & Johnson 14 A I have read that report from 2006. 14 policy; right? 15 W hat the report actually said was that in the 15 A Correct. 16 case o f inhalation o f talc not containing asbestos, 16 Q A nd that's been Johnson & Johnson's policy for 17 there --it is not a carcinogen. 17 how long? 18 W hat the report also says, that in a 18 A W ell, w e've looked through som e o f the 19 p articu lar circum stance o f p erineal application, there 19 historical --w hat are called "specifications". T hat's 20 is a possibility that it could possibly be w hat IARC 20 w hen y o u define w hat a product is, w hat's com posed of, 21 call a 2B carcinogen. 21 w hat its quality standard is. 22 Q Okay. 22 A nd certainly since the late 1940s --I think 23 A B ut --and it is a but --that review was put 23 w e found one going back to 1946 --there is a 24 together in 2006. It ignored a vast amount of 24 description o f the product, w hat it should not contain, 25 published data, both before and w as published since, 25 and one o f those is a description o f a particle which 11 (Pages 3 8 - 4 1 ) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 42 1 is described as "needle-like". They use the Latin w ord 1 Q Okay. So le t's - le t's see if I can Page 44 2 "acicular" -- w hich is A -C-I-U -L-A -R [sic] - w hich 2 understand this. 3 m eans needle-like. 3 I f you have trem olite, the m ineral, that is 4 A nd that was part o f the requirements that it 4 asbestiform , then that's asbestos; correct? 5 should not contain, going back as far as 1946, and that 5 A I f it --if it is asbestos trem olite, it is 6 w ould describe any asbestos. 6 asbestos. 7 So in a sense, although they didn't use the 7 Q Okay. 8 w ord "asbestos", they described the specification w hich 8 A If it is non-asbestos tremolite, then it is not 9 w ould avoid the use o f asbestos. 9 asbestos. 10 Q So, at least going back into the '40s, it w as 10 Q A ll right. 11 Jo h nson & Joh n so n 's po licy n o t to allo w asbestos to be 11 So in both cases you have the mineral 12 in an y talcs th ey sold; correct? 12 trem olite a n d in one case y o u h av e it --y o u have a 13 A Correct. 13 m o rp h o lo g y o r som ething in such a w ay th at it is 14 Q And, in fact, that's w hat Johnson & Johnson has 14 asbestos, and the other you have a m orphology that it 15 to ld the public, reg u lato ry agencies an d custom ers; 15 is n o t asbestos; is th at right? 16 correct? 16 A Correct. Correct, yes. 17 A Correct. 17 Q Okay. 18 Q Johnson & Johnson has a - - 1 guess you could 18 A nd so you use the term "asbestiform". I 19 say a zero tolerance policy for asbestos in its talcs; 19 take it that that is w hat it is in the asbestos form ? 20 correct? 20 A That is a --it's a loose definition. 21 A Correct. 21 I'm n o t a geologist, b u t it is one th at som e 22 Q A nd it has a zero tolerance policy for asbestos 22 people use to describe trem olite in an asbestos format. 23 m inerals in its baby powder; correct? 23 Q Okay. 24 A Asbestos. Correct, yes. 24 A nd so --and I'm ju st asking Johnson & 25 Q A ll right. 25 Johnson's opinion on these things. So if w e have Page 43 Page 45 1 Is there a difference between asbestos and 1 asbestiform trem olite, then we have asbestos; correct? 2 asbestos m inerals? 2 A That's a loose definition. Yes. 3 A W ell, you w ould have to define that. 3 Q Okay, but J& J agrees with that; right? 4 Asbestos to m e means asbestos. 4 A Yes. 5 Q Okay. 5 Q Okay. 6 A There are several types o f asbestos: 6 A nd if w e have asbestiform anthophyllite, we 7 crocidolite can be in a form o f asbestos; so there's 7 have asbestos; right? 8 chrysotile asbestos; amosite asbestos. 8 A Yes. 9 There are various m inerals that have an 9 Q I f we have asbestiform actinolite, we have 10 asbestos definition. 10 asbestos? 11 Q Okay. 11 A Yes. 12 So w hen w e use --because w e m ay use the term 12 Q N ow , chrysotile is as asbestos; correct? 13 "asbestos m inerals" in th is --in th is case, a n d it 13 A Yes. 14 m ig h t actually help to g e t ou r d efin itio n straight. 14 Q Right. 15 So asbestos minerals, w ould that include 15 A ntigorite w ould be the m assive form o r the 16 trem olite? 16 non-asbestos form o f chrysotile; correct? 17 A W ell, that's an interesting point because m any 17 A That --again, I said I'm not a geologist. But 18 o f those m inerals th at are describ ed as asbestos exist 18 th at is m y understanding, yes. 19 in a non-asbestiform . 19 Q Okay. 20 So you m entioned trem olite. M ost o f the 20 A nd certainly that would be Johnson & 21 trem olite in the w orld, as I understand it, exists in 21 Johnson's understanding from the docum ents you've read; 22 its non-asbestiform form, w hat geologists called 22 correct? 23 "massive form". 23 A Yes. 24 So very often trem olite is not asbestos 24 Q A ll right. Okay. 25 trem olite. It is sim ply non-asbestos trem olite. 25 So, ju st for the record, Exhibits 1 through 4 12 (Pages 42 - 45) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 1 are the notices in the case. 2 W e're not going to look at those ju st yet. Page 46 Page 48 1 w hich a m inim um standard m ust be m aintained on a globa I 2 basis". 3 (Exhibits 1-4 m arked for identification) 3 T hat includes the US; right? 4 Exhibit 5 is the first docum ent that you and 4 A Yes. 5 I are going to talk about, sir. 5 Q "These consist of..." 6 H ere's a copy for you, here's a copy for you. 6 A nd the first one is: 7 M S FROST: Thank you so much. 7 "Freedom from asbestos and amphibole 8 (Exhibit 5 m arked for identification) 8 minerals". 9 BY M R PANATIER: 9 C o rrect? 10 Q Sir, if you w ant to turn to the last page, that 10 A That's w hat it says. 11 m ig h t help yo u o rient y o u rse lf to w h a t this docum ent 11 Q Okay. 12 is. 12 Those are your words; right? 13 Do you see this is authored by you? 13 A They were back in 2005, yes. 14 A Yeah. 14 Q A ll right. 15 Q In - on Decem ber 28,2005; right? 15 So that applies to the US as well; right? 16 A Yes. 16 A W ell, no. Let's --let's be clear, this w as 17 Q A nd the title o f this is The Process for 17 done in 2005 w h en I'd actually left the U S em ploy. 18 Q u alification a n d A pproval o f a n ew o r alternate source 18 I was advising an A sian company as to how 19 o f C osm etic T alc; right? 19 they w ould approach sourcing a new talc m ine. 20 A Yes. 20 So this w as not - this was not for the US. 21 Q Okay. 21 The U S already had their ow n talc source. 22 So one o f your roles, I take it, at J& J w as 22 Q I understand. 23 to help govern or form the policies for the 23 W hat I'm asking you is this principle that 24 qualification o f new sources o f talc; fair? 24 you've stated here, that any new source o f talc had to 25 A I need to read this, if I may. 25 be free from asbestos and amphibole minerals, was that Page 47 Page 49 1 This docum ent was written, authored by m e as 1 true for the U S as well? 2 you say in 2005. It was done so at the request o f 2 A For the US, it would have to be free from 3 non-US affiliates if they were looking to qualify or 3 asbestos. 4 validate a m ine for talc. 4 Q Okay. 5 B ut not for the US. This was for an Asian 5 A Yeah. 6 affiliate. 6 Q W hat about amphibole m inerals? 7 Q Okay. 7 A W ell, let's be clear, the U S already has, and 8 So I'm going to ask you w hether or not som e 8 has had for a long tim e, approved sources o f talc. 9 o f these principles applied to w hat was going on in the 9 A t this point in 2005, it was the J200 source 10 US. 10 from the C hinese m ine, w hich is free from asbestos. 11 So let's look at the introduction on the 11 The point o f this docum ent was to advise, I 12 first page. It says: 12 think it w as m aybe an Indian or another com pany in the 13 "Cosmetic grades o f talc to be used in 13 F a r E ast, as to h o w th ey should approach sourcing a new 14 Johnson & Johnson products m ust m eet standards for both 14 talc m ine, as a concept. 15 m ineralogical an d m icrobial purity". 15 Q Okay. 16 Now, that standard is a worldwide standard; 16 I'm asking you sort o f a m ore general 17 correct? 17 question. 18 A That is, yes. 18 Is it Johnson & Johnson's policy that any 19 Q All right. 19 talc it uses should be free o f asbestos and am phibole 20 That applies to any products sold in the US, 20 m inerals? 21 too; correct? 21 A It's Johnson & Johnson's policy that the talc 22 A It does, yes. 22 should m eet the CTFA specification to be free o f 23 Q Right. 23 asbestos. Period. 24 A nd then the next highlight says: 24 Q Okay. 25 "There are however certain parameters for 25 A nd free o f asbestos means no asbestos; 13 (Pages 46 - 49) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 1 correct? 2 A Correct. Page 50 1 2 (Exhibit 6 m arked for identification) A ll right, sir. C an you see at the top this Page 52 3 Q Right. 3 is an email from you to Steven M ann dated August 24, 4 A nd here it's freedom from asbestos and 4 2005? 5 am phibole minerals. W ere you separating - did you 5 A Yes. 6 m ean tw o different things there? 6 Q A ll right. 7 A I was using the term loosely to advise the 7 A nd w ho's Steven M ann? 8 A sian affiliate that they should be looking for a talc 8 A H e's a form er em ployee o f Johnson & Johnson. 9 that was so pure that it did not only have no asbestos, 9 H e's the --w as a toxicologist in the U nited States 10 b u t it had no am phiboles. 10 com pany. 11 Q So none o f the --even the massive type o f 11 Q A ll right. 12 m inerals -- 12 If you go dow n to the email right below that 13 A Yes. 13 top one, o r tw o b elo w the top one, there's an em ail 14 Q -correct? 14 from you, A ugust 18 ,2 0 0 5 , at 12:06 pm ; do you see 15 A Yes, correct. 15 that? 16 Q A nd so in 2005 w hat you were telling these 16 A Yes. 17 o th er countries w as th a t an y n ew source o f talc had to 17 Q Right. 18 have no asbestos and no asbestos m inerals, or am phibole 18 A nd here you're reporting to Steve: 19 m in erals, w h ich w o u ld b e the m assive form ; correct? 19 "Steve, Y ou m ay recollect that you suggested 20 A Correct. I w as --I was essentially doing that 20 I try to be Nom inated for the Talc Group at IARC. See 21 to ensure that they w ere so clean they w ere purer than 21 response below . 22 pure and didn't m ove aw ay from w hat they were doing 22 As suspected, m y ties and relations with the 23 already. 23 Industry seem to be a reason not to use people w ho are 24 Q Yeah. 24 seen as com prom ised. I guess it w as w orth a try. 25 A nd w hat you said w as, right above that, is: 25 Regards John". Page 51 Page 53 1 "There are however certain parameters for 1 A Yes. 2 w hich a m inim um standard m ust be m aintained on a globa 1 2 Q D id you write that? 3 basis". 3 A I did. 4 Now , is the U nited States part o f the globe? 4 Q A nd it says you tried to be nom inated for the 5 A It is. 5 talc group; correct? 6 Q Okay. 6 A I tried to be nom inated for --as an observer. 7 So these w ould be standards, for instance, if 7 The talc w orking party group from IARC is 8 a new source w ere located in the U nited States; right? 8 actually set --it's m ade up o f physicians, m edical 9 A Yes. 9 experts, toxicologists, from several countries around 10 Q Y ou w ould have sent out this exact sam e policy 10 the world. 11 to th em as w ell? 11 The IARC group is a subdivision o f the United 12 A No. The U nited States at that tim e --still 12 N atio n s a n d th ey choose th eir experts from regional 13 is - responsible fo r its ow n ad vice to its o w n people 13 countries, A sia, A frica, L atin A m erica, N o rth A m erica, 14 as to h o w y o u v alidate an alternative talc source. 14 E urope -- 15 Q I'm sorry, w hen I said "you", I m eant J& J? 15 Q A nd- 16 J& J w ould have had the policy o f clearing any 16 A --and they already have their experts. 17 m ine to be clear o f asbestos and am phibole m inerals; 17 The only additional opportunity that another 18 correct? 18 p erso n can h av e is to b e an ob serv er in the room . 19 A N o. J& J's policy w ould clear any m ine to meet 19 Y ou're not allow ed to speak or say anything. 20 the specification o f the CTFA, w hich is freedom from 20 Y ou m erely observe the dialogue or the process. 21 asbestos by the appropriate C T FA test m ethods, plus 21 Q So here's w hat they say in the em ail below. 22 others used by Johnson & Johnson. 22 H ere's w hat IA RC says to you: 23 Q Okay. 23 "Dear D r Hopkins. 24 N ow , all right. Y ou can set that aside, sir. 24 Thank you for responding to the 'Call for 25 This w ill be E xhibit 6. 25 Nom inations' that was posted on our web site to seek 14 (Pages 50 - 53) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 54 Page 56 1 the names o f qualified experts for the W orking Group 1 "Y ou m ay recollect that you suggested I try 2 that will develop the forthcoming IARC M onograph on 2 to be Nom inated for the Talc Group at IARC". 3 'C arbon black, titanium dioxide and non-asbestiform 3 R ig h t? 4 talc'". 4 A Yeah. 5 D id I read that right? 5 Q D id you in that email say, "They m isunderstood 6 A Yeah. 6 w hat I was applying for"? 7 Q Okay. 7 The same thing you just told me? 8 So that's w hat you w ere applying for; right? 8 A W ell, it doesn't say that, does it? 9 A No, I was actually - 1 think thafs a 9 Q Okay. No. 10 m isunderstanding. I w as actu ally applying, as general 10 A W hat I applied for was to be an observer. That 11 p u b lic o r non-IA R C listing peo p le c an b e ap p lied , to be 11 w a s th e on lin e ap p lication fo rm th at y o u co uld apply 12 an observer. 12 for. 13 Q Okay. S o - 13 Q Y ou told m e perhaps they m isunderstood what you 14 A I was applying to be an observer. 14 w ere applying for; right? 15 Q But IARC apparently thought you were 15 A I think the response indicates they 16 applying - 16 m isunderstood, yes. 17 A W e l l ... 17 Q D id you use the w ord "misunderstand" w hen you 18 Q --to be an expert. 18 w rote M r M ann? 19 T hafs w hat they say here; right? 19 A No, I sent him a three m ail - three-line 20 A W ell, thafs w hat they say, but that was not 20 email - 21 th e case, b ecause the IA R C group alread y have th eir ow n 21 Q Okay. 22 team o f experts. 22 A --to say that I w as not going to be involved. 23 A s I said, because it's a U nited N ations 23 Q Because certainly if they misunderstood your 24 subdivision, they have experts from Latin America, 24 w hole point in applying, you w ould have m entioned that; 25 Asia, N orth Am erica, Europe, Africa, and they -- they 25 right? Page 55 Page 57 1 take a little group from each o f those countries, each 1 A N ot necessarily, no. 2 o f those regions. So they have their experts. 2 Q A ll right. 3 W hat they allow open, if you like, is for 3 A I sent a three-line email. 4 people who've got an expertise in the field, people 4 Q Okay. 5 like m yself, to be an observer. 5 N o w , Johnson & Johnson's zero tolerance 6 Q Okay. 6 policy for asbestos. That goes back certainly to the 7 W ell, so --so they m isunderstood what you 7 '40s, as far as you can recall; correct? 8 were applying for, then? 8 A That is correct, yes. 9 A W ell, I don't know w hat they misunderstood. 9 Q And, in fact, I think in 2007 you were asked 10 This letter from M r Robert Baan, who 10 about this. 11 p resum ably is a F renchm an --y e s, he's fro m F rance -- 11 Zero tolerance m eans zero, no asbestos, 0.0 12 m ay have m isunderstood. 12 infinity; right? 13 It was an online application that you could 13 A Zero m eans zero. 14 ju s t p u t y o u r nam e d ow n to b e a n observer. 14 Q Okay. 15 Q Okay. 15 There is nothing less than zero, is there? 16 A A nd th afs w hat I did. 16 A That is correct. 17 Q All right. 17 Q Okay. 18 B ut then, w hen you forwarded that on the same 18 And why has Johnson & Johnson maintained a 19 d a y to M r M ann, d id yo u tell him , "H ey look, they 19 zero tolerance policy for asbestos in talc? 2 0 d id n 't let m e com e observe. T hey th o u g h t I w as 20 A A sbestos is not a healthy m aterial to apply to 21 applying as an expert"? 21 the body. 22 D id you say that? 22 Q Right. 23 A W hat I've said is w hat I've said. 23 Asbestos could cause disease; right? 24 Shall I read it out? 24 A Correct. 25 Q W ell, you said: 25 Q A ll right. 15 (Pages 54 - 57) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 58 Page 60 1 A nd Johnson & Johnson understood, taking into 1 So there's a w idespread use by adults w ho are 2 the caveats about individuals' susceptibility and all 2 not ju st m others and babies. 3 o f that, that if there was asbestos in talc, it could 3 Q Okay. 4 potentially harm people; correct? 5 A It could. 4 I don't dispute that there's w idespread use 5 o f Johnson's B aby Pow der am ongst lots o f other people. 6 Q All right. 6 I don't dispute that. 7 And, in fact, Johnson & Johnson has 7 I'm asking if the prim e users historically 8 repeatedly told practitioners, the public, regulators, 8 were m others and babies? 9 that there is no asbestos in Johnson & Johnson talcs, 9 A Again, I don't have that information. 10 and that Johnson & Johnson has a policy o f no asbestos 10 Q Okay. 11 in talc; correct? 11 A That's a m arket --a m arketing story, if you 12 A Correct. 12 like, as to w ho's u sin g it. 13 Q Okay. 13 Traditionally, going back to the 1940s, 50s, 14 Johnson & Johnson is not aware o f any safe 14 it w as w idely used by m others and babies. 15 level o f asbestos inhalation fo r babies, is it? 15 B ut as the product gained widespread 16 A W ell, as Johnson & Johnson has never sold 16 acceptance in the hom e, it tended to be used by adults, 17 asbestos, I th in k the an sw er w o u ld have to b e yes. 17 dads, older brothers, sisters, and that's still the 18 Q Okay. 18 case today. 19 A There is no safe level. 19 Q W e'll com e back to that. W e're ju st going to 20 Q Okay. 20 pull a document. 21 A N o-- 21 A ll right. Johnson's supplied its baby 22 Q For babies? 22 pow der in m aternity kits during the first - starting 23 A For babies. For anyone. 23 in the first half o f the last century; correct? 24 Q Okay. A ll right. 24 A Yes, correct, yes. 25 No known safe level for anyone above that 25 Q Okay. Page 59 Page 61 1 general background we talked about? 1 A nd those w ere kits for -- to hand out to 2 A Yes, yes. 2 m others at hospitals; right? 3 Q Okay. 3 A Correct, yes. 4 M others and babies historically are the prime 4 Q Okay. A ll right. 5 users o f Johnson & Johnson's B aby Pow der; correct? 5 This w ill be Exhibit 7. 6 A That's not necessarily correct today. 6 (Exhibit 7 m arked for identification) 7 Traditionally, m others and babies do use baby 7 Sir, this is one o f those B ates stamped 8 pow der, but it's also w idely used by adults. 8 documents. In fact, I think 99.9 per cent o f the 9 There's certainly Johnson's B aby Pow der in m y 9 docum ents I'm going to show you today are these Bates 10 house. M y late m o th er alw ays u sed Johnson's B aby 10 stam ped docum ents that w e g ot from Johnson & Johnson. 11 Pow der. 11 N ow , this one is entitled Talc: A Basic 12 Q M mmhmm. 12 R eview o f Its Safety and U sefulness, Professional 13 A So it has a pretty widespread use amongst 13 Inform ation for Physicians, N urses and O ther H ealth 14 adults as w ell as m others an d babies. 14 Professionals; correct? 15 Q Okay. 15 A Correct, yes. 16 W hat I'm asking is, historically, the m ain 16 Q All right. 17 u sers o f Jo hnson's B ab y P ow der w ere m others a n d babies; 17 A nd if you turn, please, sir, to the first 18 right? 18 flag - - 1 th in k it's g o t a p ag e th at says Forw ard; do 19 A Actually, that's not true. T hat is not the 19 y o u see that? 20 case. 20 A Yes. 21 The m arket research and the people I've 21 Q Okay. 22 spoken to indicates that adults also widely use 22 I f you go to the highlighted section, it says 23 Johnson's B aby Pow der; w idely used by sports people, 24 sportsm en after running, during running, after the gym, 23 here: 24 "It is hoped that physicians, nurses, and 25 good for the feet. 25 other health professionals will find this review 16 (Pages 58 - 61) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 62 Page 64 1 inform ative, and that it will assist them in answering 1 Q A ll right. 2 any questions about baby pow der that m ay be encounteret 2 N ow , if you'll turn to the next page, please, 3 in course o f contact w ith their patients and other lay 3 sir. 4 individuals". 4 A Next page? 5 R ig h t? 5 Q Yes, sir, under Types o f Talc, the highlight 6 A That's w hat it says. 6 there: 7 Q So Johnson & Johnson is providing sort o f a 7 "In contrast, the grade o f talc comm only used 8 packet o f inform ation to practitioners, nurses and 8 in cosm etic and health care products today contains no 9 doctors, to then pass along to its patients if it 9 less than 90% talc, lim ited amounts o f other minerals 10 w ishes; correct? 10 and no a sb e sto s..." 11 A Correct. 11 A nd that's underlined; right? 12 Q A ll right. 12 A Yes. 13 A nd this is something that Johnson & Johnson 13 Q "Johnson & Johnson talc never has been found to 14 did on a fairly routine basis, w hich w as provide 14 contain asbestos and JO H N SO N 'S B aby Pow der is 97% 15 in fo rm ation fo r doctors to tell th eir patients; right? 15 talc". 16 A Correct, yes. 16 D id I read that right? 17 Q N ow , w ould you agree that Johnson's Baby 17 A Y ou did, yes. 18 P o w der, fro m Johnson & Johnson's perspective, w as an 18 Q Okay. 19 institution? 19 So w hat J& J is telling doctors and nurses is 20 A Yes. 20 Johnson's B aby Pow der has never been found to contain 21 Q Okay. 21 asbestos; right? 22 And, in fact, they say as m uch as, correct? 22 A That's w hat it says. 23 L ook at the next flag. Is that w hat it says? 23 Q Okay. 24 A Yes. 24 A Yeah. 25 Q It says: 25 Q There's som e other stu ff highlighted there, but Page 63 Page 65 1 "H istory o f Johnson's B aby Powder. 1 for our benefit I'm going to skip that. 2 Johnson's Baby Pow der is an institution". 2 Go to the last flag. 3 R ig h t? 3 Again, there it is reiterated in the bullet 4 A Yes. 4 points. It says that Johnson's B aby Pow der contains no 5 Q If you go to the next flag, please, sir, under 5 asbestos; right? 6 Safety A spects O f Talc, and you'll have to forgive me, 6 A That's w hat it says, yes. 7 from tim e to tim e I m ight read som ething I didn't 7 Q A ll right, a n d that's w h at y o u 're telling us 8 highlight ju st for context, so I'm going to read that 8 here today; correct? 9 first sentence. 9 A Correct, yes. 10 It says: 10 Q A ll right. Y ou can set that aside, sir. 11 "Cosm etic talc-based consum er products, 11 O kay. T he next one is E xhibit 8. T here you 12 including b a b y pow der, have b een in w id espread u se for 12 go- 13 generations. Y e t on ly recently d id the n eed arise to 13 (Exhibit 8 m arked for identification) 14 re v ie w the effects, i f any, o f talc exposure, 14 A ll right, sir. 15 esp ecially w ith resp ect to n e w inform ation o n possible 15 This is entitled Grantham Talc Comprehensive 16 trace contam inants and to share these findings w ith 16 Report; right? 17 in terested h ealth care professionals. Interest in such 17 A That's the title o f the docum ent, yes. 18 a rev iew has b e en stim ulated b y several developm ents. 18 Q Yes. 19 O ne that w as --one w as that sm all am ounts o f asbestos 19 It's on the second page, if you go to the 20 fibers had been detected in som e sam ples o f lesser 20 second page, you can see it's m arked - go back a 21 know n baby pow ders". 21 couple o f pages. O ne m ore page. So w e can date this 22 So Johnson & Johnson is bringing up the fact 22 thing. 23 that perhaps there w as asbestos detected in other 23 It's m arked Central File M arch 4,1 9 7 1 , 24 people's baby pow ders; right? 24 Received on the stamp; correct? 25 A That's w hat it says. 25 A Yes. 17 (Pages 62 - 65) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 66 Page 68 1 Q All right. 1 decades that when talc pow der is used on an infant or a 2 They ju st have some background information in 2 child, they will inhale some o f that talc into their 3 here, but I w ant to go ahead and turn to the page at 3 lungs? 4 the bottom . It's going to end in Bates 8128. 4 A There is always the possibility that, w hen talc 5 A Yeah. 5 is used, w e w ill inhale talc. 6 Q A ll right. 6 Q A nd it's not really a possibility; right? 7 Now , this is a report where Johnson & Johnson 7 A Yes. 8 is looking at evaluating Grantham talc; correct? 8 Q I mean, it happens? 9 A That w ould appear to be the case, yes. 9 A It happens, yes. 10 Q N ow , w hy in '71 w as Johnson & Johnson 10 Q Okay. 11 evaluating G rantham talc? 11 A nd it doesn't ju st go for children and 12 A Hypothetically, I can say that they were 12 babies. It goes for -- 13 p ro b ab ly lo o k in g fo r an alternative source o f talc to 13 A Adults. 14 the talc they w ere currently using. 14 Q -- an adult w ho's using it too; right? 15 Q Okay. 15 A Yes. 16 So go back to then -- you're on the right 16 Q Okay. 17 page. Y ou can see there there's a sentence that says: 17 Does Johnson & Johnson agree that consumers 18 "It should be pointed out that while m inor 18 h av e tru sted it to sell safe p ro ducts fo r them and 19 differences w ere detected by the laboratory in the 19 their babies for over a hundred years? 20 lubricity and whiteness o f Grantham talc w ith respect 20 A That's a fair statem ent, yes. 21 to V erm ont and Italian talcs, the differences did not 21 Q Okay. 22 appear to be significant relative to consum er 22 Sounds like something Johnson & Johnson would 23 acceptance by the prim e users, m others o f infants". 23 say; right? 24 D id I read that right? 24 A It's th e k in d o f th in g th a t Johnson & Johnson 25 A Y ou did, yes. 25 w ould say because it's a fact. Page 67 Page 69 1 Q Okay. 1 Q Okay. 2 So, at least in '71, Johnson & Johnson 2 That its consum ers trusted it to sell safe 3 understood that the prim e users o f its Baby Pow der were 3 products; correct? 4 the m others o f infants; right? 4 A Consum ers do trust to sell safe products, yes. 5 A Yes. 5 Q Right. 6 Q Okay. 6 Johnson & Johnson understands that its 7 G o ahead and then turn to the page, at the 7 customers trust Johnson & Johnson to sell products that 8 top it's m arked 19, at the bottom it's 8143. 8 aren't dangerous; right? 9 T here again, Consum er Test: 9 A That's correct, yes. 10 "Grantham talc composite lot #1 w as consum er 10 Q A nd Johnson & Johnson understands that its 11 tested ag ain st V erm o n t an d Italian talcs. T h e object 11 custom ers count on it to objectively test their 12 o f th e test w as to determ ine i f the p rim e JO H N S O N 'S ... 12 p ro ducts for the p resence o f anything dangerous; right? 13 B ab y P ow der users, m others o f infants, co uld perceive 13 A Correct, yes. 14 any difference in B aby Pow der from the various talc 14 Q Okay. 15 sources". 15 A baby can't take precautions if a product 16 So again that reiterates that the prime 16 used on them is harm ful, can it? 17 u sers, from the perspective o f Jo h n so n & Johnson, at 17 A Correct, yes. 18 least in 1971, w ere m others o f infants; right? 18 Q Right. 19 A That's w hat it says, yes. 19 The baby is relying on the m other and father 20 Q Right. 20 usually; right? 21 You don't dispute that, do you? 21 A Yes. 22 A I don't dispute that. 22 Q Som etim es even a sibling; right? 23 Q A ll right. All right, sir. Y ou can set that 23 A Yes. 24 aside. 24 Q A nd m other and father, and even siblings, are 25 Sir, Johnson & Johnson has understood for 25 relying on Johnson & Johnson to tell them if there's 18 (Pages 66 - 69) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 1 any hazards with the product; correct? Page 70 1 Page 72 A Historically, there are clinical studies which 2 A Correct, yes. 2 show that there is a benefit, and this going back, way 3 Q All right. 3 back into the pre-w ar tim e -- that there was a benefit 4 It's essential that those products be safe 4 to using baby pow der to help prevent diaper rash, yes. 5 not only for the m other and father, but for the baby, 5 Q A ll right. 6 w ho is incapable o f protecting him or herself; correct? 6 W e'll talk about som e o f the internal 7 A Correct, yes. 7 documents that J&J has there, but the first thing you 8 Q A gree that it w ould be a betrayal o f that trust 8 brought up w as the connection betw een mom and baby; 9 to sell products to people and their babies that it 9 right? 10 knew w ere harm ful? 10 A Yes. 11 A It would, yes, yes. 11 Q In th at tim e w here --an d I'm u sing "m om " but, 12 Q Okay. 12 as the father o f a three-year-old, it's dads too. I'm 13 Agree it w ould be a betrayal o f that trust to 13 sure yo u 're aw are o f that. 14 sell products to peo p le an d th eir bab ies th at it knew 14 B ut a parent changing baby. It is Johnson & 15 co ntained asbestos? 15 Jo hnson's opinion th at the p aren t an d the baby, their 16 A T hat is correct, yes. 16 connection is increased i f they're changing a diaper 17 Q Okay. 17 and Johnson's B aby P ow der is added to the m ix, as 18 Do you w ant your customers and users o f your 18 opposed to ju s t changing a diaper w ith no baby pow der? 19 b a b y po w d e r an d talc products to k n o w the tru th about 19 A Adding - based on w hat I said a few minutes 20 your products? 20 ago, w hen Baby Pow der is used as part o f the diaper 21 A Correct, yes. 21 change routine, there is an elem ent o f touch betw een 22 Q Okay. 22 m other and baby, or father and baby, and that element 23 A nd has Johnson & Johnson always told the 23 o f touch is recognized by m edical science as being o f 24 truth to consum ers and the public about its baby pow der 24 value to the baby. So touch is important. 25 and talc products? 25 The value o ff preventing diaper rash is also Page 71 Page 73 1 A That is m y belief, yes. 1 important. 2 Q Right. 2 So there is a value in using baby powder at 3 N ow , the talc products --I think we can do 3 the tim e o f changing a diaper. 4 this generally, but cosmetic talc products and baby 4 Q A ll right. 5 pow der products, as sold by Johnson & Johnson, have no 5 I guess w hat I'm getting at is, is Johnson's 6 m edicinal value; correct? 6 --is J& J saying that there is som ehow m ore o f a touch 7 A It depends how we define m edicinal. 7 and a relationship w ith a parent and their child if 8 Historically, the bond betw een a m other and a 8 they have Johnson & Johnson's B aby Pow der there, as 9 baby is know n by m edical science to be reinforced by 9 opposed to if they don't have it there? A nd that's 10 touch and m assage, and certainly baby pow der does that. 10 som ething J& J has looked at? 11 The second benefit, a physiological medicinal 11 A T here is extensive research in the topic o f 12 benefit traditionally w ith diapers is that w hen babies 12 bonding betw een parent and child, and use o f baby 13 w o re th e o ld -fashioned cloth diap ers p articularly you 13 pow der, b aby lotion, those kind o f products enhance 14 get chafing, particularly w hen the diaper is w et, and 14 th at b o n d in g experience, and that's w ell recognized b y 15 b y u sin g bab y po w d er o r p o w d e r o n th e d iaper area, then 15 m edical science. 16 y o u abso rb th at w ater. 16 Q Right. 17 A nd because talc has a certain property o f 17 A nd is that bonding experience somehow not 18 b ein g w h at w e d escribe as lubricious, w here on e talc 18 there i f they're ju s t chan g in g a d iaper an d touching 19 p article slides ov er another, it acts a s a dry 19 the baby and there's no pow der? 20 lubricant to prevent chafing o f the baby's skin by the 20 A W ell, i f yo u 're n ot u sing p o w d er o r y o u 're not 21 diaper. 21 using lotion or cream , then y ou are shortening the 22 So in a sense it's not unreasonable to say 22 process, and so the am ount o f touch, the amount o f 23 there is a m edical, dermatological skin benefit. 23 bonding is severely curtailed. 24 Q Is that som ething that J& J has actually studied 24 M edical science recognizes that touch and 25 and proven? 25 bonding is actually really quite im portant for baby's 19 (Pages 70 - 73) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 74 Page 76 1 development. 1 Q A nd you would imm ediately tell the public who 2 Q I don't think anybody disagrees that touch and 2 w as buying the product; correct? 3 bonding is important. 3 A Yes. 4 W hat I'm saying is can Johnson & Johnson 4 Q Okay. 5 point to any sort o f science --you're a scientist; 5 T his w ill be E xhibit 9. 6 right? 6 (Exhibit 9 m arked for identification) 7 A Yes. 7 Right, sir. This is a Johnson & Johnson 8 Q Can you point to any science that says regular 8 document; correct? 9 diaper changing has this am ount o f touch and this 9 A Yes. 10 am ount o f b onding, b u t i f y o u add po w d e r it's enhanced; 10 Q A ll right. 11 th ere is m o re o f it. 11 It's dated January 18,1974, and the subject 12 Is there any actual science on that, sir? 12 is Talc/A sbestos, M eeting w ith C om m issioner Schm idt, 13 A The science, if you were to do w hat you m ight 13 FD A ; right? 14 call a clinical trial, like y o u w o u ld a d rugs trial or 14 A Yes. 15 w h af'have y o u , no, you're n o t going to fin d th at kind 15 Q N ow , Johnson & Johnson m et with the FD A a lot; 16 o f science. 16 right? 17 B ut it is w hat w e call "empirical science", 17 A They did, yes. 18 w h ereby, o v e r generations, peo p le have show n th at 18 Q T hey sent articles and letters to the FDA quite 19 b o n d in g is im p o rtan t to the relationship b etw een a 19 a lot, especially during the 70s; right? 20 m other and a baby, and bonding is enhanced by the tim e 20 A Yes. 21 w e spend doing that diaper change. 21 Q Okay. 22 Y ou're going to spend longer if you use a 22 A nd you can see this is a m emo about a 23 baby lotion or a baby pow der or a baby cream. That 23 m eeting with the FDA, and you can see the attendees for 24 w hole process is going to take longer. 24 the FD A were - looks like there were four o f them, and 25 So the touch betw een m other and baby, or 25 then for Johnson & Johnson there were three Page 75 Page 77 1 father and baby, is going to be - take longer, and it 1 individuals; right? 2 will be enhanced. 2 A Correct. 3 So the bonding experience, through touch, is 3 Q Okay. 4 enhanced by the tim e you're taking using baby powder, 4 So this is sort o f the m inutes o f the meeting 5 baby lotion, baby cream. 5 that Johnson & Johnson took, or a m em o about the 6 Q So it's the tim e that enhances the parental and 6 m eeting; right? 7 ch ild relationship? It's n ot the product? 7 A Yeah. 8 A W ell, the product is the facilitator for the 8 Q Okay. 9 time. 9 If you turn to the second page, I think you 10 So if you were not using baby lotion, baby 10 m ight be there - 11 p ow der, b a b y cream , then y o u w o u ld finish the p rocess 11 A Yeah. 12 in a m u ch sh o rter perio d o f tim e. 12 Q -- it starts w ith a paragraph called Dr 13 Q Okay. 13 E ierm an n [sic]. 14 So it's the tim e? 14 N ow , D r Eierm ann at this point w as with the 15 A It's the time. 15 FD A ; true? 16 Q Okay. 16 A Yes. 17 A B ut using baby powder, baby lotion as the 17 Q A nd if you go to the front page, it says Dr 18 facilitator to exten d th at tim e. 18 E ierm ann w as there, he w as present, Director, D ivision 19 Q Okay. A ll right. W e'll talk about som e o f 19 o f C osm etics T echnology at the FD A ; right? 20 those claims. 20 A Yes. 21 Y ou already told m e that Johnson & Johnson's 21 Q B ut he was also a form er employee o f Johnson & 22 policy w ould be that if there w as ever any asbestos in 22 Johnson in Brazil; true? 23 any o f their talcs that they found, they w ould 23 A Yes. 24 im m ediately recall it; correct? 24 Q Okay. 25 A Correct. 25 Now, on the second page, it says in that 20 (Pages 74 - 77) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 1 fourth paragraph, the big paragraph: Page 78 Page 80 1 and that was 1974 --it w as a very long tim e ago -- was 2 "Dr Eierm ann said that his m ain interest at 2 that that was their opinion at that time, based on the 3 this tim e is to find w hat level o f dust exposure occurs 3 perm itted level o f asbestos approved by OSHA in mines. 4 in the process o f dusting a baby and that they would 4 Q M m m hm m . Okay. 5 like to use the data to calculate allowable asbestos 5 A But, again, hypothetical because there is not, 6 using 5 fibers per m l ([the] OSHA lim it) for safe 6 never has been, any asbestos in baby powder. 7 exposure in the mines". 7 Q Right. 8 D id I read that right? 8 Hypothetical, perhaps, sir, according to you, 9 A You did, yes. 9 but to m e it's confusing because -- because if there's 10 Q Okay. 10 no asbestos in Johnson's B aby Pow der, then it's odd 11 "W e prom ised to provide a report on the talc 11 th at Jo h n so n & Johnson w o u ld b e telling the F D A th at 12 d u st exposure o f babies. W e p o in ted o u t th at the data 12 substantial asbestos c an be allo w ed safely in baby 13 w e have is b a se d on ex ag gerated dusting o f a w hole can 13 pow der. 14 o f b a b y po w d e r a n d th a t the am o u n t generated, nam ely 14 D on't you think that's a little odd? 15 345 m g/m 3 m ay b e excessive. W e said th at w e are 15 A It's not som ething that I w ould w rite, but 16 currently attem pting to m ake the sam e calculation he 16 now here does it say Johnson's B aby Pow der. 17 p ro p o sed [ i n ] ... the data. O u r v ery p relim inary 17 Q Ah. 18 calculation in d icates th at substantial asbestos can be 18 A It's talking about baby pow der in the generic 19 allo w ed safely in a b ab y pow der". 19 concept. 20 D id I read that right? 20 Q G ot it. So they're talking about other 21 A You read that right. 21 people's, m aybe? 22 Q So in 1974 in January, Johnson & Johnson tells 22 A M aybe, but, again, I cannot speak for what 23 the FD A that, based on its calculations, a 23 som eone wrote in 1974. 24 substantial -- substantial asbestos can be allowed 24 It was historical. It was a comm ent that 25 safely in a Baby Powder; right? 25 they m ade, a fly away comm ent, very prelim inary Page 79 Page 81 1 A That is w hat is written by a m em ber o f the 1 calculation. 2 m edical department at Johnson & Johnson. 2 It's not som ething that w ould be considered 3 It's certainly not som ething that w ould be 3 today, and certainly, as the com pany back in 7 4 did 4 considered today. 4 not have asbestos in baby powder, it was hypothetical 5 Q W ell, it w as being considered by J& J in '74; 5 anyway. 6 right? 6 Q Sure. 7 A It looks like that, but it's certainly not 7 T hey didn't say this w as hypothetical, 8 som ething that w e w ould ever consider, for the simple 8 though, did they? 9 reason there is not, never has been, any asbestos in 9 A N o, but I'm saying that's hypothetical because 10 Johnson's B aby Powder. 10 w e did not - the com pany never h ad asbestos in baby 11 Q So there's never been any asbestos in Johnson's 11 pow der, even g oing b ack to 1974. 12 B aby Pow der, yet Johnson & Johnson is telling die FD A 12 Q I understand, and w e're going to get to the 13 th at a substantial am ount o f asbestos can b e allow ed 13 issue o f asbestos in b ab y pow der. 14 safely in baby pow der; correct? 14 B ut let's look at who w rote this. 15 A W ell, w hat it says: 15 N ow , you reviewed, you said, thousands o f 16 "Our very prelim inary calculation indicates 16 docum ents; right? 17 t h a t ... asbestos c an b e allow ed safely in ... baby 17 A Yes. 18 p ow der". 18 Q Y ou spent four weeks doing it? 19 Q You skipped a word. 19 A Yes. 20 A I'll read it again: 20 Q So you know this is G avin Hildick-Sm ith? 21 "Our very prelim inary calculation indicates 21 A Yes. 22 that substantial asbestos can be allowed safely in a 22 Q A nd D r Nashed; correct? 23 baby powder". 23 A That's w hat it says, yes. 24 Q Right. 24 Q Okay. 25 A W hat --m y guess is w hat these guys are saying, 25 A nd those were two people w ho were very 21 (Pages 7 8 - 8 1 ) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 82 Page 84 1 active in the talc issue, especially w ith asbestos, in 1 A nd then later they say that if there was an 2 the 1970s; correct? 2 issue, a question o f the safety o f talc, they would 3 A They were, yes. 3 pull it o ff the shelves, it if it was Johnson & 4 Q A nd M r Hildick-Sm ith, w as he over here in Great 4 Johnson; right? 5 Britain? 6 A He w as based in the U nited States. 7 Q Okay. 8 D o you know if he w as British? 5 A Yes. 6 Q O kay. A ll right. Y ou can set that aside, sir. 7 I f it turns out that there was asbestos in 8 Johnson & Johnson talcs that got sold and Johnson & 9 A H e w as -- he'd originally qualified in the U K 9 Johnson knew it, then that m eans they've been lying any 10 a n d em ig rated to the US. 10 tim e they said it didn't have asbestos in it; right? 11 Q I ju st saw a reference to that. T hat's w hy I'm 11 A That would appears to the case. 12 asking. 12 Q Okay. 13 Now , go ahead and turn to the page that is 13 Now , did Johnson & Johnson ever reject a lot 14 m arked 3 at the top; okay? 14 o f talc because it had asbestos in it, because asbestos 15 A Yes. 15 w as found? 16 Q There's a highlight there and I've asked you 16 A I'm not aw are that that's ever been the case. 17 ab o u t this, a n d it appears it w as the p o licy then. 17 Q Right. 18 "D r Fuller stressed Johnson & Johnson's 18 N ow , let's talk generally about some o f these 19 p o licy o f full co-operation w ith [the] F D A an d th at if 19 talc sources, and w e'll get a little bit m ore specific 20 the results o f any scientific studies show ed any 20 into it. 21 question o f safety o f talc, Johnson & Johnson w ill not 21 B ut tell m e the years, and let's start with 22 hesitate to take it o ff the market". 22 '46, and then w e're going to go b ack because, correct 23 R ig h t? 23 m e i f I'm w rong, b u t pre-46, the sources o f talc sort 24 A Yes. 24 o f jum ped around a little bit; is that fair? 25 Q Okay. 25 A That's m y understanding, yes. Page 83 Page 85 1 N ow , let's put that together w ith w hat it 1 Q Okay. A ll right. 2 said on the previous page: 2 There was a war, so they had to change 3 "O ur very prelim inary calculation indicates 3 sources? 4 that substantial asbestos can be allowed safely in a 4 A Yes. 5 baby powder". 5 Q A nd so forth? 6 So if that was their opinion then, they 6 A Yes. 7 w ouldn't have any reason to pull it o ff the shelf 7 Q Right. Okay. 8 because it w ouldn't be unsafe, even if it had a 8 W e've got a docum ent on that. 9 substantial am ount o f asbestos; correct? 9 B u t let's start in '46. In '46, after the 10 A Okay. Y ou're conflating the w ord Johnson & 10 w ar, w hat sources o f talc w as Johnson & Johnson using? 11 Johnson, an d Jo h n so n & Jo hnson's p o licy --you're 11 A It w as using --in the U nited States, it was 12 conflating that w ith the generic concept o f a baby 12 u sing the, w hat's called grade 00000 from the V al 13 pow der. 13 C hisone m in e in Italy. 14 N ow here does it on the previous page say that 14 Q Okay. 15 Johnson's B ab y P o w d er has asbestos, an d n o w here does it 15 So it w as using Italian 00000 talc? 16 say th at substantial asbestos can b e allow ed safely in 16 A Yes. 17 Johnson's B ab y Pow der. 17 Q N ow , that's also been referred to as 1615 A G IT 18 Q I understand, but w hat they've said is they've 18 later on in years; correct? 19 se t th e level o f w h a t could b e safe. 19 A That m ay be the case, yes. 20 Hypothetically, w hat could be safe is 20 Q O kay, and w e'll talk about that later on. 21 su bstantial asbestos in b ab y po w d er, acco rd in g to them , 21 A From the Val Chisone m ine, yes. 22 in 7 4 ; correct? 22 Q Right. 23 A That was an opinion written by tw o -- two 23 A Yes, yes. 24 executives, yes. 24 Q E ver use any Italian talc from any other m ine, 25 Q Right. 25 other than the Val Chisone m ine? 22 (Pages 82 - 85) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 86 Page 88 1 A No. 1 to 'em , b u t - throughout the '70s and even into the 2 Q Okay. 2 '80s, discussing m aterial specifications for Italian 3 W hen did it use Italian talc until? 3 talc. 4 A Approxim ately 1967. 4 W hy w ould there be a m aterial specification 5 Q Right. 5 for Italian talc, say, in 1980? 6 So in all products m ade in the U nited States, 6 A M y understanding was that there was at one 7 Johnson & Johnson w as using Italian talc from '46 to 7 short point a mine strike at the Verm ont m ine, and the 8 '67? 8 company needed to substitute for a period o f a few 9 A Correct. 9 weeks or a few m onths an alternative talc, because the 10 Q Right. 10 m ine w as on strike in Verm ont. 11 Then in '67, w hat happens? 11 Q Okay. 12 A O kay. T he com pany had already purchased a m ine 12 A So there was a need to revert back to the 13 in W indsor, S tate o f V erm ont, an d th at w as b eing w o rk ed 13 Italian talc. 14 up. 14 Q A ll right. 15 So from '67, '68, the talc w as started from 15 And, again, w e w ill talk about any tim e there 16 the W indsor m ine, grade 66. 16 w as an exception, and w e acknow ledge there w ere 17 Q A ll right. 17 exceptions. 18 So V erm ont talc starting in '66, '67? 18 B ut from '67 until approxim ately 2003, the 19 A Sixty-seven, '68. 19 m ain talc being used w as V erm ont talc in all products? 20 Q Okay. 20 The m ain talc? 21 For w hat products? 21 A T hat is correct, yes. 22 A For baby pow der products and Shower to Shower. 22 Q A nd then in '03 it becom es C hinese G uang X i 23 Q Right. 23 talc? 24 W ere there any products that were still using 24 A That is correct, yes. 25 Italian talc at that point? 25 Q A ll right. Page 87 Page 89 1 A There w ould be a phase over. W hen you have 1 D oes Johnson & Johnson agree that the Italian 2 products, you'll still have a phase over. 2 m ine and the Italian talc that Johnson & Johnson 3 So m y b elief is that there w as a little bit 3 received here in the States --in the States -- w as 4 o f som e o f the Italian talc still being used up. 4 regularly contam inated w ith tremolite? 5 Q In all the products or in certain products? 5 A It is recognized that in som e cases trace 6 A From m y recollection, I think it w as Shower to 6 quantities o f non-asbestos trem olite has been located. 7 Shower. 7 The odd fiber in the Italian talc. 8 Q Okay. 8 B ut in no cases was there any actual asbestos 9 So your recollection would be that the baby 9 present in the Italian talc. 10 pow der, they w ent im m ediately in '67 from Italian to 10 Q W ell, let's b e clear, if it w as a fiber, it was 11 V erm ont, a n d in the S how er to S how er, th ey u se d u p the 11 asbestos? 12 re st o f the Italian th at th ey had? 12 A Perhaps I m isused the word. 13 A That is m y recollection. 13 A particle o f trem olite has occasionally been 14 B ut, for the record, I w ould need to see the 14 detected. V ery, very occasionally. 15 d o cu m entation to p ro v e that. 15 B ut the quality o f the m ining is such that 16 Q That's fair. 16 the m ining area avoids any trem olite deposits. 17 W e're going to talk about your recollection 17 Q A ll right. 18 ab o u t the sources, an d then w e'll look a t som e 18 So w e shouldn't regularly see any trem olite; 19 docum ents; okay? 19 right? 20 A Yeah. 20 A Y ou w ould never see any asbestos tremolite. 21 Q B ut just to get a general fram ework o f the 21 Q M eaning a fiber shape; right? 22 years. 22 A Correct. 23 A Y eah, that's generally, yes. Yeah. 24 Q Okay. 23 Q Okay. 24 Fibrous trem olite w ould be asbestos; correct? 25 N o w , I'v e seen som e docum ents, a n d w e'll get 25 A I'm n o t a geologist, b u t m y und erstan d in g is 23 (Pages 86 - 89) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 90 Page 92 1 that if trem olite was present in a certain form, which 1 W e'll talk about that one a little bit later, 2 is described as non-m assive, it would be asbestos. 2 and forgive me if we do jum p around a little bit. Some 3 Q Okay. 3 o f these topics sort o f crop up, but w e'll talk about 4 A nd I'm ju st asking Johnson & Johnson's 4 CTFA J4-1 a little bit later. 5 policy, so I have to kind o f understand Johnson & 5 Johnson & Johnson agrees that, obviously 6 Johnson -- 6 before you can have a fiber o f asbestos or a fiber of 7 A Johnson & Johnson's policy is that there is 7 trem olite or anthophyllite or w hatever you're talking 8 a --what w e call a specification for the quality o f 8 about, you have to have the m ineral there first; right? 9 the product. 9 Y ou can't have asbestos w ithout the asbestos 10 T hat specification follows the 10 m inerals; true? 11 req uirem ents - w h a t w as term ed the C osm etic T o iletry & 11 A True. 12 Fragrance A ssociation, CTFA , w hich is freedom from 12 Q Okay. 13 asbestos. 13 M S FR O ST : C hris, w e 've been g oing close to 14 A nd w ith that policy and that specification 14 an hour. 15 co m es a series o f test m ethods to ensure th at the 15 M R PA N A TIER: That's fine. Let's take a 16 product is free from asbestos. 16 break now. 17 Q A ll right. 17 M S FROST: Does that work? 18 A X -ray diffraction, optical m icroscopy, 18 M R PANATIER: Yep. 19 tran sm issio n electro n m icroscopy. 19 TH E W ITNESS: Y eah, it's an hour and 20. 20 So there are m ethods to determine the absence 20 (O ff the record at 11:38 am) 21 o f asbestos. 21 (On the record at 11:50 am) 22 Q Okay. 22 BY M R PANATIER: 23 A nd those were the m ethods that are 23 Q Right, sir, I ju st want to back up real fast to 24 prescribed by the CTFA? 24 the docum ent that w e were talking about, the m em o from 25 A The CTFA test method prescribes x-ray 25 '74 w here Johnson & Johnson is reporting back on a Page 91 Page 93 1 diffraction and polarized light m icroscopy. 1 m eeting with the FDA, and they have told the FDA that 2 B ut in addition Johnson & Johnson adds som e 2 their very prelim inary calculation indicates that 3 additional tests, such as infrared and transmission 3 substantial asbestos can be allow ed safely in a Baby 4 electron m icroscopy as a double check. 4 Powder. 5 Q Okay. W e'll get into all those. 5 N ow , you've told m e that that's hypothetical 6 CTFA is who? 6 because, o f course, in your opinion, Johnson & Johnson 7 A CTFA , it's the trade association o f all the 7 never had asbestos in their baby powder. 8 cosm etic companies. It stands for the Cosmetic 8 B ut m any other companies were selling baby 9 Toiletries & Fragrance Association. 9 powders; correct? 10 It has in recent years changed its nam e to 10 A O ther companies sell baby powder, yes. 11 th e Personal C are P roducts C ouncil. 11 Q Right. 12 Q Right. 12 A nd do you know whether or not the FDA had 13 It used to be the CTFA and now it's the PCPC? 13 the sam e confidence th at o th er com panies d id n 't have 14 A Correct, yes. 14 asbestos in their baby pow ders? 15 Q Right. 15 A I don't know. I cannot speak for FDA. 16 A nd so when you talk about the CTFA 16 I can speak for Johnson & Johnson, but I 17 specification fo r absence o f asbestos in talc, you're 17 cannot for FD A and w hat their view s w ere. 18 talk in g ab o u t C T F A J4-1? 18 Q B ut to the extent that the FD A was evaluating 19 A Correct, yes. 19 other talcs that m ay or m ay n o t have asbestos in them , 20 Q A nd that started in M arch o f 1976; correct? 20 the information they were getting from Johnson & 21 A The final version w as published at that point, 21 Johnson w as substantial asbestos can b e allow ed safely 22 yes. 22 in a baby powder; correct? 23 Q It's still in effect today; right? 23 Those are their words; right? 24 A It is still in effect today, yes. 24 A They are their words, but you need to see it in 25 Q Okay. 25 the context, the context being that if FDA perm it 24 (Pages 90 - 93) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 94 Page 96 1 certain levels under OSHA in employm ent places, then 1 through the use o f the OSHA permissible exposure 2 those particle levels w ould not be dissim ilar to what 2 limits? 3 you w ould say w ould be acceptable in a home 4 environm ent. 5 B ut that's based on the OSH A categorization, 3 A I'm not aware o f any guidelines that w ould 4 facilitate that. 5 Q All right. 6 w hich is a U S government agency. 7 Q Okay. 6 And does Johnson & Johnson understand that 7 OSHA perm issible exposure lim its w ere designed to help 8 A It's a hypothetical com m ent, anyway. 8 prevent the disease asbestosis, but not cancers? 9 Q W ell, in your opinion, because, in your 9 A Correct, yes. 10 opinion, Johnson & Johnson didn't have asbestos in its 10 Q Okay. 11 talc; right? 11 Now , you said before we took our break that 12 A That is correct, yes. 12 som etim es there w as, a n d co rrect m e i f I'm w rong, b u t 13 There is not and never has been any asbestos 13 som etim es there w a s -- th ere m ig h t b e trem olite in the 14 in Johnson's talc. 14 ore that Johnson & Johnson used; correct? 15 Q It w ould not be hypothetical if in fact there 15 A W hat I said was that in the Italian m ine the 16 w as asbestos in Johnson & Jo hnson's talc; right? 16 audit o f th e m ine indicated th at in som e o f the 17 A It could be hypothetical, and let m e explain 17 non-talc areas, the non-talc parts, there w as trace o f 18 w hy. 18 trem olite. 19 I f you're using the OSH A lim it, w hich is the 19 Q Okay. 20 US government approved standard at that tim e for 20 A nd so the Italian ore that m ade it back to 21 em ployees in a factory or a m ine, if you're saying that 21 Johnson & Johnson for use in its products w ould not 22 a certain level is acceptable, then it is possible to 22 have contained any tremolite, then? 23 say, w ell, let's translate that data into a consum er 23 A It w ould not have contained asbestos tremolite. 24 product. 24 Q Okay. 25 A nd UFDA, if you are looking at other 25 W ell, I'm asking trem olite. W ould it have Page 95 Page 97 1 consum er products, you m ight w ant to think about using 1 contained trem olite, the m ineral? 2 that as the basis to evaluate. 2 A It m ight have done, if it had not been 3 It's --again, it's hypothetical, b u t it's 3 selectively rem oved at the mine. 4 ju st an individual's com m ent. It's not som ething that 4 Q W as it supposed to have been selectively 5 w ould - 1w ould see personally as being valid today. 5 rem oved at the mine? 6 Q W ell, w hat we learn about the policy o f a 6 A Part o f the m ining process is that the m iners 7 com pany is w e evaluate the com m ents o f its individuals; 7 operate in the talc areas and if they see rock that is 8 right? 8 n o t talc, then they are required to rem ove it. 9 A Yes. Past individuals in this case, yes. 9 Q Okay. 10 Q There is no giant Johnson & Johnson robot that 10 D id Johnson & Johnson have at any tim e an 11 tak es into acco u n t all o f the peo p le's o p inions and 11 internal lim it o n h o w m u ch o f the m assive trem olite or 12 then speaks for the com pany, is there? 12 other am phiboles could b e allow ed in the ore? 13 A No, there is -- w hat you have there is a letter 13 A I've not seen that as part o f the requirem ent. 14 w h ere tw o individuals have m ade a com m ent. 14 The requirem ent was that the product should 15 Q Okay. 15 be at the specification o f the C T FA , w hich is asbestos 16 A O r at least one individual. Tw o individuals 17 h av e signed it. 16 free. 17 Q W ell, let's be clear, the CTFA J4-1 requirem ent 18 Q Now, let m e ask you this question. 18 cam e o u t in '76; right? 19 Johnson & Johnson understands that OSHA 19 A Correct, yes. 20 lim its were workplace exposure lim its put in place for 20 Q So before '76, okay, y o u said that it w as your 21 asbestos in the w orkplace; right? 21 expectation that Johnson & Johnson never had asbestos 22 A Correct, yes. 22 in any o f its products. 23 Q Is Johnson & Johnson aware o f any grounds, 23 W ell, let's talk about the m inerals; okay? 24 w hether in government or science, to try and evaluate 24 B efo re '76, w h at w as Johnson & Johnson's 25 the safety o f a consum er product to be used on babies 25 policy on the allowance, or not, o f asbestos m inerals 25 (Pages 94 - 97) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 1 in the non-m assive form in the ore? Page 98 1 detect or not detect. Page 100 2 A The requirem ents going back to the 1940s was 2 Essentially, where you have non-detect, it 3 that the product should be free from needle-like 3 m eans there's none there. 4 particles, w hich would have included asbestos. 4 Q Okay. 5 So although not using that name, asbestos, 5 Is that w hat non-detect m eans? There's none 6 they were described as needle-like or acicular 6 there? 1 particles. 7 A It m eans there's none there by that particular 8 Q Right. 8 test method. 9 A W hich w ould have included asbestos, and the 9 Q Right. 10 p ro d u ct w as req u ired to be free from such particles. 10 So let's ju st use a --I'm not a scientist, 11 Q D id Johnson & Johnson have a lim it on the 11 so I'm g oing to u se so rt o f a very basic exam ple. 12 am o u n t o f trem olite, th e m ineral o r anthophyllite, the 12 I f we w anted to know whether or not I had 13 m ineral, o r actinolite, the m ineral, in the ore th at it 13 bacteria on m y skin - now , hu m an bein g s are covered in 14 purchased? 14 bacteria; right? 15 A B ack in the -- back in the '40s, '50s, that 15 A Yes, you are. 16 definition w as never given to those m inerals. They 16 Q In and out? 17 w ere sim p ly describ ed as "absence o f needle-like 17 A Yeah, yeah. 18 particles", w h ich w o u ld hav e in cluded a n y an asbestos 18 Q Right. Okay. 19 ty p e particles. 19 B ut if I wanted to know if there was bacteria 20 Q Has Johnson & Johnson ever found asbestos 20 on m y skin, I could use a tool called a magnifying 21 particles in its source talc? 21 glass and I could look at m y skin and I w ould be 22 A N ot in the source talc from the Val Chisone or 22 non-detect for bacteria; right? 23 any o f the other mines, no. 23 A Ah, that's the w rong tool. 24 Q Okay. 24 Q Right. It is the w rong tool. 25 So Johnson & Johnson has never found asbestos 25 A Yeah. Page 99 Page 101 1 in any o f its source talcs? 1 Q B ut i f I used that tool, it's still a tool to 2 A Correct. 2 m ake things bigger, right, and to be able to see things 3 Q M eaning trem olite, actinolite, anthophyllite or 3 better; right? 4 chrysotile in any o f its ores; correct? 4 A Yeah. 5 A In the asbestos form o f those minerals, 5 Q B ut it w ould be the wrong tool to try to see 6 correct. 6 bacteria on m y skin, because it doesn't have a level o f 7 Q Okay. 7 sensitivity that w ould allow m e to see it; fair? 8 No asbestiform or asbestos form chrysotile, 8 A That is correct, yes. 9 trem olite, actinolite or anthophyllite in any o f its 9 Q Okay. 10 ores? 10 I w ould need probably a skin sam ple in at 11 A That is correct. 11 least a lig h t m icroscope; right? 12 Q Ever? 12 A Y ou would, yes. 13 A That is correct. 13 Q Okay. 14 Q H as Johnson & Johnson ever found any asbestos 14 A nd if I wanted to see what was going on 15 o r asbestiform m inerals in an y o f its p ro d u cts -- 15 deep, deep, deep w ith in th at bacteria, I m ig h t have to 16 finished products? 16 ju m p to a transm ission or a scanning electron 17 A They have not. 17 m icroscope; right? 18 Q Never? 18 A Y ou would, yes. 19 A No, never. 19 Q A ll right. 20 Q As a scientist, you understand that there is a 20 So it w ould be wrong to say there was no 21 difference betw een the term s zero and non-detect; 21 bacteria on m e because it w as non-detect by a 22 correct? 22 m agnifying glass; isn't that true? 23 A It is a scientific phrase, yes. 23 A Yes, you w ould be using the wrong test method. 24 N on-detect m eans it's non-detectable, and, as 24 Q Right. 25 a scientist, you use test m ethods w hich allow you to 25 So if you w ant to know whether or not a 26 (Pages 98 - 101) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 102 1 contam inant o f som ething like talc is really there, you 1 A No. Page 104 2 got to use --you got to select the right tool; right? 2 Q W hat about W ild and Kleinjans in 2003, Children 3 A You do indeed, yes. 4 Q Okay. 3 and increased susceptibility? Have you read that? 4 A No. 5 A Yeah. 5 Q W hat about M iller in 2004, Environm ental 6 Q D oes Johnson & Johnson agree, generally 6 hazards in the childhood- in childhood? 7 speaking, that children and babies are m ore susceptible 7 Have you read that? 8 to carcinogens than adults? 8 A No. 9 A There's no evidence for that. There's no 9 Q W hat about Samet in 2004, Risk assessment and 10 evidence for that. 10 child health? 11 The im m une system s that w e all have are 11 A No. 12 p retty eq u ally dev elo p ed from the ag e o f three m onths 12 Q W hat about Barton -- 13 upw ards. 13 M S FRAZIER: Can you just stop for just a 14 Q So it's Johnson & Johnson's opinion --not ju st 14 second. I think the line m ay have gotten cut off. 15 y o u r opinion -- th at there's n o evidence that 15 Is anybody on the line? 16 individual ch ildren an d bab ies are m ore susceptible to 16 M R PA N A TIER: L et's take a break and call 17 carcinogens? 17 back in. 18 A I've not seen that evidence. I don't think 18 (O ff the record at 12:02 pm ) 19 anyone's ever done that -- that kind o f research. But, 19 (On the record at 12:04 pm ) 20 yep. 20 Q A ll right, sir, the next paper I w as going to 21 Q Okay. 21 ask you about w as a paper by B arton in 2005, 22 I just w ant to ask you about a few papers. 22 Susceptibility from early life exposure to carcinogens. 23 Have you read a paper by A ral from 1977, 23 Have you read that? 24 M esotheliom a from asbestos exposure in childhood? 24 A I've not, no. 25 A No. 25 Q Brent in 2005, Vulnerability o f children to Page 103 Page 105 1 Q Have you read a paper from 1990, Kane, 1 toxicants? 2 M alignant m esotheliom a in young adults? 2 Have you read that? 3 A No. 3 A I've not read that, no. 4 Q W hat about Landrigan in 1991, Population o f 4 Q A paper by Haque in 1996, Asbestos in 5 children at risk? 5 placentas? 6 A No. 6 Have you read that? 7 Q Okay. 7 A No. 8 W hat about Landrigan in 1994, Children at 8 Q Okay. 9 risk to exposure to asbestos? 9 D oes Johnson & Johnson agree that w hen you're 10 A No. 10 looking for asbestos in a talc product that's going to 11 Q W hat ab o u t the p a p er b y B earer in 1995, H ow are 11 be u se d b y co nsum ers on them selves an d th eir babies, 12 ch ildren differen t from adults? 12 that the m ost sensitive analytical techniques should be 13 A No. 13 u sed so th a t an y asbestos presen t is n ot m issed? 14 Q W hat about Robinson and Buckley in 1995, 14 A That is correct, yes. 15 E n v ironm ental factors in childhood cancers? 15 Q Okay. 16 A No. 16 Now , I w anted to go back to earlier I asked 17 Q W hat about Z ahm and D evesa in 1995, C hildhood 17 y ou a question about w hether or not there w ere any 18 can cer environm ental carcinogens? 18 m edical benefits o f the use o f talc. So I w ant to show 19 A No. 19 y ou a docum ent. 20 Q H ow about Hillerdal, 1999, M esotheliom a and 20 T his one is going to b e E xhibit 10. 21 non-occupational and low dose exposures? 21 (Exhibit 10 m arked for identification) 22 A No. 22 Right. Now , this is a m em o, Johnson & 23 Q Okay. 23 Johnson document; correct? 24 W hat about 2003, Bim baum , Cancer and 24 A Yes. 25 developm ent exposure? 25 Q From A ugust 13, 1971, subject is Talc; correct? 27 (Pages 102 - 105) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 1 A Yeah. Page 106 1 Page 108 Q B ut they've ignored it to that point; right? 2 Q A nd it says at the top Confidential underlined; 2 A N o, because they say we've thus far ignored it, 3 right? 3 but in reality I happen to know that the nickel in the 4 A Yes. 4 Verm ont talc is not what we call biologically 5 Q Okay. 5 available. 6 It deals w ith various issues, but let's start 6 N ickel that is carcinogenic are nickel salts, 7 on the front som e. I've got som e highlights. 7 like nickel chloride, nickel sulphate. But the nickel 8 Section C says: 8 that is in the talc is in the form o f the nickel that's 9 "The Bureau o f M ines expert who testified at 9 in your pocket, the 5 cent, 10 cent coins. It's a 10 the behest o f the FD A com m ented on the pure grade talc 10 different m aterial. 11 in o u r W in d so r m ine b u t m entioned the o re nex t to the 11 The nickel that's in the talc is trapped in 12 o u tlying ro ck co u ld contain asbestos. It is im perative 12 the nickel lattice, in the sam e w ay that a egg y o lk is 13 th at careful selection o f the o re be m aintained a t the 13 trap p ed w ith in the eg g shell. Y o u can 't actually touch 14 m ines. It is alw ays possible that the FD A m ay inspect 14 the egg yolk; it is trapped inside. 15 th e m ines a n d ou r records". 15 So scientists have known that for a long 16 D id I read that right? 16 tim e, that the nickel w as n ot actually biologically 17 A Y ou did, yes. 17 available on the skin. 18 Q N ow , o th er than b eing w o rried th at the F D A m ay 18 Q A nd w e're going to get to that, sir. B ut that 19 co m e an d lo o k a t y o u r m ine an d inspect y o u r records, 19 w asn 't m y question. 20 you'd w ant to be very careful about selection o f the 20 M y question was: they're saying here that 21 rock for the safety o f the people w ho are using the 21 they have thus far ignored som ething; right? 22 products; true? 22 A W ell, that individual m ay have ignored it, but 23 A Yes. 23 I think, certainly within the m edical department, the 24 Q Okay. 24 people w ere aware o f nickel and the safety o f nickel. 25 D: 25 Q W ell, he doesn't say: Page 107 Page 109 1 "Quality Control should be upgraded and the 1 "I have ignored it". 2 possible presence o f asbestos be determined on periodic 2 H e said: 3 samples". 3 "... w e have thus far have ignored". 4 D id I read that right? 4 R ig h t? 5 A Yes, you did. 5 A W ell, the w ord "we" is often used by people to 6 Q Okay. 6 include the me, or we, m y department, or we a group. 7 B ut it's your testim ony that there w as never 7 Q The royal we? 8 any indication o f asbestos in the m ines at this tim e in 8 A The royal we, yeah. 9 '71; right? 9 Q A nd w e are in England? 10 A Yeah. 10 A Y ou are, indeed. 11 Q Go dow n to F: 11 Q So -- but let's look, though. L ook at the last 12 "Dr Cralley o f the US Public Health Service 12 page. H e's cc'd three, four, five, 16 people? 13 h as pu b lish ed h is concern, w h ich he stated a t the F D A 13 A Yes. 14 m eeting, reg ard in g m etal co n ten t o f talc, p articularly 14 Q Right. 15 n ickel; this ... [is] a possible carcinogen. W e have 15 Are you aware o f any memo w here they wrote 16 a n un u su ally h ig h co n ten t o f n ick e l in V e rm o n t talc 16 b ack to M r Shelley, w ho w rote this one, and said, "Y on 17 w h ich does n o t ap p ear am enable to rem oval". 17 m ight have ignored nickel, but w e haven't been ignoring 18 "Amenable" m eans able to; correct? 18 nickel"? 19 A Correct, yes. 19 Are you aware o f that memo? 20 Q "W e m ust delve into the subject, which we have 20 A I'm not aw are o f a memo. 21 thus far ignored". 21 Q Okay. 22 Is that a good safe policy? 22 A A lthough there m ay well have been a phone call 23 A It says that the company is taking a challenge 23 or a m em o that I've not seen. 24 seriously, and if there is an issue with nickel, then 24 Q Okay. A ll right. 25 let's look at it. 25 N ow , if you ignore som ething, it means you 28 (Pages 106 - 109) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 110 Page 112 1 are aw are o f it. Y ou can't ignore som ething you're not 1 versus risk"? 2 aw are of; right? 2 A I'm not aw are that they did. I'm not aware 3 A Yes. 3 that they didn't. 4 Q Okay. 4 Q Okay. 5 Y ou agree w ith w hat I'm saying? 5 W ell, you're certainly not aware o f any 6 A Yes. 6 w ritten evidence that they did; correct? 7 Q Okay. A ll right. 7 A I'm not aware o f any w ritten evidence. 8 Go ahead and turn to page 2. Up at the top, 8 Q A ll right. 9 G: 9 A nd by this point in A ugust 13 o f '71, 10 "It is generally accepted that the 10 Johnson & Johnson has been advertising the absorptive 11 lu ng-dam aging p articles o f m in erals are b elo w 10 11 nature, the lubricity, reduction o f chafing for, w hat, 12 m icrons. R oughly, w e have a b o u t 5- 8% o f such in ou r 12 8 0 y ears b y th at po int? 13 talc". 13 A I guess so, yes. 14 Okay. So they're saying that the 14 Q Okay. 15 lu ng-dam aging particles are less th an 10 m icrons an d 5 15 A nd here, at least in '71, this individual, 16 to 8 per cent o f the talc are those lung-dam aging 16 cc'ing 16 others, is saying, "W e haven't proven that"? 17 particles; correct? 17 A Yeah. 18 A Again, that's n ot -- that's w hat's w ritten, but 18 Q Right? 19 it's n o t factually correct. 19 A That's w hat he's writing. 20 W hat --if this person, whoever wrote this, 20 Q Okay. 21 h ad been an expert in lung pathology, he w ould have 21 A It's --like I say, it's not the view o f the 22 used the w ord what we call "respirable particles". 22 company. 23 Particles below 10 m icrons are those that you 23 Q W ell, he's an individual em ployed by the 24 can breathe in. 24 company; right? 25 Q A nd they refer to those particles below 10 25 A H e is and, you know , there's nothing to stop P a g e lll 1 m icrons as fines; right? 1 2 A Yeah. 2 3 Q A nd then there at the end o f the paragraph: 3 4 "O f more concern are our different blending 4 5 m ethods in the plants. Rem oval o f fines w ould raise 5 6 production costs!" 6 7 R ig h t? 7 8 A That's w hat it says. 8 9 Q Okay. 9 10 N o w , let's g o ahead an d skip dow n to I. 10 11 I: 11 12 "A facet o f the situation not yet considered 12 13 is th at o f the efficacy o f b o d y pow der. A considered 13 14 approach to all 'health pro d u cts' is th at o f b en efit 14 15 versus risk. W hile it has generally b e en b eliev ed that 15 16 baby pow der provides lubricity, thus reducing chafing, 16 17 m ay ab so rb m oisture, etc., this h a s n o t been proven 17 18 insofar as w e know ". 18 19 Is that w hat he wrote? 19 20 A That's w hat he w rote and, like I say, it's not 20 21 necessarily the view o f the com pany and other people in 21 22 the com pany at that time. 22 23 Q D id any o f those 16 people w rite him back? A re 23 24 you aware o f any evidence where he said -- where they 24 25 said, "Y ou're w rong, w e have proven the health benefit 25 Page 113 him from w riting his opinion. Q Okay. A B u t it is no t the view o f the com pany. Q A n d w e're n o t - w e're n o t aw are o f the fact th at an y o n e c alled h im o u t an d said, "Y ou're w ro n g about that"; right? A I d o n 't k n o w th ey did. I d o n 't k n o w th ey d id n 't. Q Okay. A I d o n 't k n o w th ey d id n 't p ic k u p th e phone. L ik e I say, it's an in d iv id u al's opinion. Q R ight. A B u t it's n o t th e o p in io n th at's w id ely recognized in the -- in the literature as to the value o f talc. Q R ight. T h at's ju s t w h a t th is m an w ro te at Jo h n so n & Jo h n so n in '71; right? A Yeah. Q O kay. Y o u can set th at aside, sir. Johnson & Johnson has funded research regarding its products and the ingredients in those products over the last m any decades; correct? A Yes. Q Okay. 29 (Pages 110-113) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 114 Page 116 1 N ow , let m e ask you this question: that 1 "yes" or "no"? 2 research has included looking at folks w ho m ined talc; 2 A Yes. 3 right? 3 Q Okay. 4 A Yeah. 4 A Yes. 5 Q It's included anim al studies; right? 5 Q Sorry about that. 6 A Yes. 6 Thousands o f tons. That w ould have been true 7 Q Okay. 7 in the '60s; true? 8 D id Johnson & Johnson ever do a study to 8 A I guess so, yes, yes. 9 track the people w ho are actually using its products 9 Q Okay. 10 a n d determ ine w h eth er o r n o t its custom ers, and 10 7 0 s? '80s? '90s? 11 determ ine w h e th er o r n o t those individuals got 11 A Yeah, I guess so. 12 m esotheliom a? 12 Q Currently? 13 A No. 13 A I don't know the current sales figures. 14 Q Okay. 14 Q Okay. 15 A nd let m e ask you this: in the U nited 15 A B ut probably in that ballpark, yes. 16 States, and let's ju st pick a decade that you feel 16 Q A ll right. 17 co m fortable talking ab o u t -- 7 0 s , '80, e arlier - can 17 A nd Johnson & Johnson hasn't m ade any effort 18 y o u give u s som e appreciation fo r the vo lu m e o f sales 18 to track the health o f the users o f its products; 19 o f a p ro d u ct like Jo hnson's B ab y P o w d er in a given 19 correct? 20 year, ju st so w e can understand it, broadly? 20 A No. 21 A In a given year? M any thousands o f tons. 21 Q This w ould be m illions o f people; right? 22 I don't know the exact figures. 22 A Yeah. 23 Q Okay. 23 Q Okay. 24 A Y eah, several thousand tons. 24 W hen it comes to research, Johnson & Johnson, 25 Q Right. 25 I'm sure, agrees that scientists should be able to Page 115 Page 117 1 A nd so how m any -- if Johnson's B aby Pow der 1 conduct their research independent o f influence from 2 has to be at least 90 per cent talc -- 2 interested parties; correct? 3 A M mm hmm. 3 A Correct. 4 Q --how m any containers can you get out o f a 4 Q Y ou're a scientist; right? 5 ton, generally, w ith the understanding that different 5 A Yes. 6 sized containers? 6 Q Have you ever done research? 7 A Yeah. 7 A Yes. 8 Q I get that. B ut ju st generally? 8 Q D id you w ant to be influenced by interested 9 A W ell, a ton is 2,000 pounds. H a ifa pound 9 parties? 10 container. 4,000 8 ounce containers. 10 A No, indeed. 11 Q O kay. A ll right. 11 Q Okay. 12 A Yeah. 12 A nd why w ould you not w ant to be influenced 13 Q Roughly speaking, you get 4,000 or so? 13 b y interested parties? 14 A Yeah. 14 A Because an interested party m ay have an opinion 15 Q Right. 15 that w o uld differ from reality from the final 16 A nd you're talking about selling thousands o f 16 conclusion. 17 tons p e r year? 17 It's possible. 18 A M mm hmm. 18 Q Yeah. 19 Q Right? 19 A It depends on the company. It depends on the 20 A Yeah. 20 organization. 21 Q Okay. 21 Q There's alw ays a risk that, if an interested 22 A nd som e years higher; som e years lower, I'm 22 party exercises influence over the research, they can 23 sure? 23 influence the results; correct? 24 A M m m hmm. 24 A That is correct, w ith a caveat that it depends 25 Q A nd I'm sorry, for the record, can you say 25 w hat the influence is. 30 (Pages 114-117) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 118 Page 120 1 If the influence is "I'll give you $10,000 to 1 J& J was basically using that same m ethod I 2 do this research and say no m ore", then that's not 2 believe from about '72, '73, that tim efram e, plus 3 really an influence. It's ju st a case of, "I'm doing 3 transm ission electron microscopy. 4 this jo b and I'm getting $10,000 for it". 4 Q So w e'll -- w e'll get into that. W e've got 5 Q Okay. 5 plenty o f documents on that. 6 Funding alone m ay not be undue influence is 6 B ut when was the first tim e that use o f TEM 7 w hat you're saying? 7 became routine? 8 A That's w hat I'm saying, yes. 8 A W ithin Johnson & Johnson? 9 Q Undue influence w ould be what? 9 Q Yes? 10 A Undue influence w ould be visitations to the 10 A I believe around '74, '75. 11 laboratory, looking a t the resu lts an d saying, "D o y o u 11 Q A nd how often was Johnson & Johnson using 12 really m ean this?" 12 transm ission electron m icroscopy on its ore to test it 13 It's actually trying to interfere w ith the 13 fo r asbestos? 14 final outcom e, the final results. 14 A The unground ore? The raw ore? I don't know 15 Q Trying to control it? 15 the answ er to th at question. 16 A Trying to control it, yeah. 16 Q W ell, that's - you've given m e a question, 17 Q And w hat about - what about sending a letter 17 w hich is: raw versus unground? 18 to the research er saying, "H ere's the resu lts w e 'd 18 A Yes. 19 like"? 19 Q Explain the difference? 20 A That w ould be unprofessional. 20 A Okay. 21 Q Okay. 21 The m ine produces ore. The m ine will have 22 It w ould be improper to exert influence on 22 their ore validated, confirm ed and checked for quality 23 the direction o f scientific study; correct? 23 on a regular basis before it's ground. 24 A Yeah. 24 That's som ething that m ost m ines w ill do on a 25 Q It w ould be improper to exert influence on a 25 fairly regular basis. Page 119 Page 121 1 scientific study to try and shape the results; correct? 1 So that's separate from the final ground 2 A Correct. 2 talc. 3 Q W ould Johnson & Johnson ever fund scientific 3 Q Okay. 4 research so that they could control it? 4 W hat parts o f the ore process process was 5 A I w ould hope not. I'm not aw are that that's 5 Johnson & Johnson using transmission electron 6 ever occurred. 6 m icroscopy on regularly when it did start doing it 7 Q All right. 7 regularly? 8 D id Johnson & Johnson ever engage in the 8 A In the 1970s? 9 suppression o f publications it found hostile or adverse 9 Q Mmmhmm? 10 to its interests? 10 A E arly '70s? 11 A I'm not aw are that, no. 11 Q Yes? 12 Q D id Johnson & Johnson ever set out to 12 A Sorry, w ould you rephrase the question? 13 co m prom ise o r discred it researchers w h o had im plicated 13 Q Yeah. I guess w hat I'm asking is: in w hat part 14 talc as containing asbestos? 14 o f the process w as the T E M testing com ing in? 15 A N o, I'm not aware o f that. 15 A Okay. M y understanding, it was done both on 16 Q Okay. 16 the validation o f the initial ore sam ples, or regular 17 D id Johnson & Johnson ever system atically 17 ore sam ples on an audit basis, and then obviously on 18 fo llo w talc u sers --w ell, actually, I already asked 18 the actual talc produced, ground dow n to the fineness 19 y o u that, so n ever m ind. 19 that w as required. Both. 20 W hen did Johnson & Johnson begin using 20 Q Okay. 21 tran sm issio n electron m icroscopy to analyze either its 21 So when they validate a source, they would 22 ore, the ore sources that it was getting for talc or 22 test it? 23 the final product? 24 A I believe it was before the CTFA published 23 A Yes. 24 Q And then when it was ground, they would test 25 their 1976 method. 25 it? 31 (Pages 118- 121) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 122 Page 124 1 A Yes. 1 Q Okay. 2 Q H ow often w ould they test the ground talc in 2 Johnson & Johnson has even referred to its 3 the early '70s w ith TEM ? 3 baby powder as a "sacred cow"? 4 A Okay. It w a s- - tended to be done every two 4 A I've not seen that. 5 w eeks, every --bi-w eekly, I think the phrase is. 5 Q Okay. 6 Q Right. 6 A B ut if you've got that docum ented, then that's 7 A Initially, som etim es weekly, but m ostly 7 not unreasonable. 8 bi-weekly. 8 Q Okay. 9 Q Okay. 9 A B ut I've certainly not seen that expression. 10 Now , w hen w e look at the documents regarding 10 Q A nd the cornerstone o f the baby products 11 testing, w ill th at give u s the b e st pictures o f w h at 11 com pany. Y o u w o u ld n 't disagree w ith that, w ould you? 12 th ey w ere doing? 12 A W ell, again, if --you may well have that 13 A I w ould hope so, yes. 13 docum ented. I h av e n o t seen that. 14 Q A ll right. 14 Q Okay. So let's do "sacred cow" first. 15 Now , I asked you before whether or not 15 So this is E xhibit 11. 16 Johnson & Johnson referred to its baby pow der as an 16 (E xhibit 11 m ark ed fo r identification) 17 institution; y o u said it did? 17 A Thank you. 18 A Yeah. 18 Q Y ou can see here, sir, there's a - these are 19 Q Right. 19 som e em ails, and this is from --the second em ail dow n 20 A It did. 20 is from Steven M ann, w ho w e know; right? 21 Q Johnson & Johnson has regularly referred to its 21 A Yes. 22 baby pow der as "the franchise"; right? 22 Q A nd he writes to Paul and Lorena. Paul 23 A That's a m arketing phrase, but it has been 23 Sterchele and Lorena Telofski. 24 described as a franchise, yes. 24 A nd he actually spells "sacred" wrong, but I 25 Q Their flagship product? 25 think w e can agree that's w hat he's meaning. Page 123 Page 125 1 A It is one o f the flagship products. 1 He says: 2 Q Okay. 3 A A long w ith baby lotion, yeah. Baby shampoo. 2 "M y sense is that the Baby Powder is such a 3 If 4 They're flagship products. 4 A nd he says: 5 Q "Flagship" m eans that's the product people 5 "... scared cow that w e w ill ju st leave it 6 think o f and associate w ith the com pany w hen they think 6 alone". 7 o f the company? 7 H ave you ever heard o f the expression "scared 8 A That's correct, yes. 8 cow"? 9 Q Right. 9 A No. 10 M ost people, when they think about Johnson & 10 Q He m eans "sacred cow"; right? 11 Jo hnson, they're either th inking ab o u t bab y po w d er o r 11 A O kay. I'll take y o u r w ord fo r it. 12 th ey 're th inking ab o u t th at b ab y sham poo; right? 12 Q W ell, you tell m e, am I wrong? 13 A Yeah, or Band-Aid. 13 A Y eah, yeah, I'll take your w ord for it. 14 Q Okay. 14 Q Okay. W ell, I w ant your word. 15 A Those are well known brands that have been 15 That m eans --he's saying "sacred cow"; 16 around for generations, yeah. 16 right? 17 Q Okay. 17 A Could well -- 18 J& J m akes thousands o f products, though; 18 M R GA FFREY: Do you have a date on that? 19 right? 19 M R PA NATIER: Yeah, sorry. That is 6.30.2003 20 A T hat is correct, yes. 20 at the top. A ll right. 21 Q Okay. 21 Q H e calls Baby Pow der a sacred cow there; right? 22 A nd the baby pow der is easily the top one or 22 A He does, yes. 23 tw o products that people think o f w hen they think o f 23 Q Okay. 24 J& J; right? 24 A nd he's n ot an underling; right? M r M ann is 25 A They do, yes. 25 a pretty high up guy? 32 (Pages 122 - 125) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 126 Page 128 1 A H e's a toxicologist. 1 little holes. 2 Q Okay. A ll right. 2 So in a sense they are intended so that if 3 Sir, you can set that aside. 3 you --if the cap is closed and you invert the tub o f 4 T his n ext one w ill be E xhibit 12. 4 baby pow der, nothing w ill come out. 5 (Exhibit 12 m arked for identification) 5 Q So ju st by --it's Johnson & Johnson's opinion 6 Okay. E xhibit 12 is a Johnson & Johnson 6 that ju st rotating the top makes it child proof? 7 document; right? 7 A It closes the --closes the cap. 8 A Yeah. 8 T here's never --no such --I'm not aw are o f 9 Q This is from back in June o f 1966; true? 9 any child pro o f closure that could well be developed. 10 A Yeah. 10 Q Okay. A ll right. 11 Q All right. 11 So Johnson & Johnson has never put a child 12 N ow , this is - the su b ject here is JO H N S O N 'S 12 p r o o f top o n its talc? 13 B ab y P o w d er T alc A spiration; right? 13 A It's produced --put a child resistant closure 14 A M mmhmm. 14 on the top, w hereby if the m um closes the cap to close 15 Q W hat does that mean? Aspiration? 15 up the seven little holes, then the pow der w ill not 16 A Okay. Y eah. I rem em ber this. 16 com e out. 17 It essentially m eans choking. A t that time, 17 Q U nless a child opens it? 18 a n d certainly since then, there have been cases w here 18 A U nless the child --yeah, if a baby's sm art 19 baby's grabbed a tub o f baby pow der, fallen back, 19 enough to open it, then that w ould in theory happen. 20 tipped it over its face, m aybe choked with two or three 20 Q W ell, certainly a young child. Y ou wouldn't 21 o u nces o f pow der. 21 th ink o f an infant as opening a bottle; right? 22 A spiration is very different from inhalation. 22 A Correct. 23 It's a m edical --it's a m edical term. 23 Q Okay. 24 Inhalation is w hat we do w hen w e inhale 24 B ut a sm all child could? 25 fumes, cigarette smoke, w hat have you. 25 A A sm all child could, yes. Page 127 Page 129 1 Aspiration, or talc aspiration in this case, 1 Q Okay. 2 related to incidences w here there had been at that time 2 So this paper, going back to this paper, the 3 cases w here baby or baby's little sister tipped the tub 3 first highlight says: 4 o f baby powder on their face and blocked the nose and 4 "Baby Powder represents the cornerstone o f 5 mouth. 5 our baby products franchise" in 66. 6 That's aspiration - 6 This goes back to us referring to it as the 7 Q W hen- 7 "franchise" and the "flagship product"; right? 8 A --w hich you can get into the lung at that 8 A Yeah, yeah. 9 point 9 Q "In addition, w e have a large investment in a 10 Q Sure, sure. 10 talc m ine". 11 And there were --there have been cases o f 11 N ow , that w ould be the m ine in Vermont; 12 deaths from talc aspiration; correct? 12 correct? 13 A There have, yes. 13 A Yes. 14 Q Yeah. 14 Q Okay. 15 A nd w hen w as the first tim e that Johnson & 15 "I am concerned over the conclusions drawn in 16 Johnson put a baby pro o f o r child pro o f lid on its baby 16 the article, quote. 17 pow der? 17 'In conclusion, it is strongly urged that 18 A It depends ho w w e define "baby p ro o f' or "child 18 talcum pow der be rem oved from the environm ent o f 19 p ro o f'. 19 children and the traditional association o f talcum 20 Q It m eans a kid can't get into in? 20 pow der and babies be abandoned. It has no medicinal 21 A Yeah. I mean, the --the issue is to have a 21 value; w herever placed it serves as a foreign body; and 22 cap over the product, and m y understanding o f looking 22 at least three deaths and an unknow n morbidity have 23 at som e o f those from the 1940s is they have a screw 23 resulted from this silicate powder". 24 cap over the seven little holes, and at a later date, 24 A nd that's a quote from this article in the 25 it's a rotor cap w here it w ill close over the seven 25 A m erican Journal o f Diseases o f Children; correct? 33 (Pages 126 - 129) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 130 Page 132 1 A T hat w as the opinion o f the author o f the 1 data to refute this problem or to develop m echanism s to 2 article, a D r H ughes and K alm er in 1966, b ut it's an 2 reduce the hazard". 3 opinion, w hich they express, w hich they're entitled to. 3 R ig h t? 4 Q Right, and so they expressed the opinion that 4 A Yeah. 5 talcum pow der use on babies be abandoned; correct? 5 Q Okay. 6 A They expressed that opinion. 6 So develop m echanism s to reduce the hazard. 7 Q And -- 7 T here w as never a true child p ro o f lid; 8 A That's their opinion. 8 correct? 9 Q A nd the further opinion they had w as that it 9 A Correct. 10 had no m edicinal value; right? 10 Q A nd one o f their other potential m otives here 11 A W ell, that's their opinion. It's --I respect 11 w as to refute th is p roblem o f th is article; right? 12 th at opinion. It's n o t on e th at I w o u ld a g ree w ith, 12 A Yeah. 13 b u t they're en titled to th at opinion. 13 Q Okay. 14 Q W ell, w e know from one o f our earlier docum ents 14 A B ut it's w orth saying that currently it's m y 15 th at a Jo h n so n & Johnson individual ex pressed b asically 15 reco llection th at an op tio n to reduce the hazard is 16 the sam e opinion five years later in 1971, w here he 16 proper labeling, and that is the case at present. 17 said the b enefits have n o t b een proven; correct? 17 Q A t present that's the case; right? 18 A A n opinion by one individual. 18 A Yeah. 19 Q Right. 19 Q That says, "Keep out o f reach o f children"; 20 A B ut not by pretty well anyone else in the 20 right? 21 corporation. 21 A That's correct. 22 Q W ell, now w e're up to at least three 22 Q W hen was the first tim e that appeared? 23 individuals; right? 23 A I believe in the late 1980s, early '90. I'm 24 A Okay. 24 not sure now. 25 Q Two outside o f Johnson & Johnson and at least 25 Q Okay. Page 131 Page 133 1 one in it; right? 1 A B ut certainly that is --that is one option 2 A A nd how m any employees has Johnson & Johnson 2 that w as taken. 3 got worldwide? 3 Q So Johnson & Johnson had been m aking Johnson's 4 Q W ell, that's a great question. S o - 4 Baby Pow der for how long by 1990? 5 A Several thousand. 5 A A hundred years. 6 Q Yeah. 6 Q Over a hundred years? 7 So w hat you're saying is --I guess, are you 7 A Yeah. 8 saying that in order for a com pany to have an opinion, 8 Q Right. 9 every employee has to be surveyed? 9 A nd the first tim e there was a warning that 10 A No, but an individual within a com pany can 10 said "K eep out o f reach o f children" w as late '80s, 11 raise an issue, issue a n opinion, an d th ey co u ld w ell 11 early '90? 12 say, "A re w e d oing the rig h t th in g ? L et's challenge 12 A That's m y belief, yes. 13 ourselves". 13 Q W as there anything stopping Johnson & Johnson 14 That's a norm al thing in any good business. 14 from putting a - that w arning on it a hundred years 15 C hallenge ourselves to w h a t w e're doing. A re w e doing 15 earlier? 16 it properly? 16 A The - it's a theoretical hypothetical 17 Q Okay. 17 question. 18 A C ould w e m ake a better job o f it? 18 Y ou put w arnings on a product if there's a 19 That's - that's good business practice. 19 v alid reason to do so. I th in k up until that tim e 20 Q Okay. 20 no one had ever considered there to be a valid reason. 21 W ell, let's see if they're doing the right 21 A s I've said before, the current closures, 22 thing here. Let's look at their line after the quote 22 w hich go back to the - certainly to the 1940s, the 23 from the article: 23 seven little holes with the screw top cover, providing 24 "W ould it be possible for us to initiate 24 m um exhibits good parental behaviour, w ould say: yep, 25 basic w ork to explore this phenom enon either to obtain 25 you put the cover on, close it up, screw it up, and if 34 (Pages 130 - 133) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 134 Page 136 1 it's screw ed on tightly, it isn't accessible to baby. 1 T hat is a m edical benefit, to enhance that - 2 Q Sir, you said if there w as a good reason for 2 that w hole relationship. 3 it. 3 M S FRAZIER: Is this a good tim e to stop for 4 This article we ju st looked at is 1966. 4 lunch? 5 That's 34 years before 1990; correct? 5 M R PANATIER: Let me do one document on that 6 A That is correct. 6 question and then we'll take a break, yes. 7 Q Or 24 years before 1990; right? 7 S o this w ill be E xhibit 13. 8 A Yeah. 8 (E x h ib it 13 m ark ed for identification) 9 Q A nd so 24 years before 1990, they're aw are o f 9 Q H ere you go, sir. A ll right. 10 an article about deaths from aspiration o f talc, and it 10 Sir, do you see this is a docum ent entitled 11 to o k 'em 24 y ears to p u t a w arn in g o n it th at said, 11 Jo h n so n & Johnson B ab y P o w d er Q uestions an d A n sw ers 12 "K eep o u t o f reach o f ch ildren"? 12 C onfidential, D ecem ber 1985. 13 A That's -- that's not part o f the story, b ut the 13 Do you see that? 14 w hole story is that there has alw ays been an adequate 14 A Yeah. 15 clo sure o n th e product, an d as long as paren ts exhibit 15 Q A nd if you go to - turn to the first page on 16 g o o d p arental b eh av io u r o f closing the cap after use, 16 the inside, it says: 17 k eep in g the p ro d u ct o u t o f the w a y o f baby, in the sam e 17 "The attached Question and Answer document 18 w ay yo u w o u ld w ith a b ab y sham poo o r o ther product, 18 h as b e en d eveloped fo r lim ited internal distribution in 19 th en the p ro d u ct is safe. 19 response to the need for clarification o f issues 20 Q Okay. So the w arning they put on there in 1990 20 relating to baby pow der and talc. Specifically, its 21 or thereabout w asn't even needed? 21 sole purpose at this tim e is to provide designated 22 A It's good business practice to reflect the 22 com pany spokespersons w ith answers to questions which 23 practices at that time. 23 could be raised by the press. It is not m eant for 24 Certainly, that was the decision that was 24 distribution to anyone other than the individuals who 25 taken at that tim e to put an extra warning on. 25 will act as company spokespersons as necessary". Page 135 Page 137 1 Q A nd so m y question is: they could have done it 1 D id I read that right? 2 earlier, because they had notice o f the problem 2 A Y ou did, yes. 3 earlier; correct? 3 Q A nd then for this one it actually recommends 4 A In theory, yes. 4 different spokespeople, right, and there's four o f 5 Q H ow m uch -- how m uch extra ink did it cost 5 them; true? 6 Johnson & Johnson to put the warning to keep out o f 6 A Yeah. 7 reach o f children on the bottles? 7 Q N ow , you've seen these before in the company; 8 A I couldn't answ er that question. 8 right? 9 Q N ot much; right? 9 A Yes. 10 A N ot m uch, no, I'm sure. 10 Q W here the com pany tries to help educate its 11 Q In so fa r as Jo hnson's B ab y P o w d er w as a sacred 11 peo p le on h o w to resp o n d to the p ress or to inquiries 12 co w , a n institution, a franchise, a flagship, a 12 from custom ers, e t cetera; right? 13 cornerstone o f Johnson & Johnson's business, it w ould 13 A Yes. 14 be very, very bad for business if it ever cam e out that 14 Q Okay. 15 th e b ab y p o w d e r o r an y o f Johnson & Johnson's talc 15 So that's w hat this is; fair? 16 products ever contained asbestos; correct? 16 A Y eah, that's correct. 17 A Yes, correct. 17 Q Right. 18 Q A nd none o f Johnson & Johnson's talc products 18 A Yeah. 19 e v er p ro v id ed any m edical benefits. 19 Q T urn to the page, at the top it's m arked 3. 20 W e've talked about this relationship betw een 20 It's got a 3. 21 m o m an d bab y , b u t m edical benefit; isn 't th at true? 21 Y ou know what? W e can actually skip that. 22 A No. Y ou have to define "medical benefit", and 22 You and I have talked about that. 23 the term "medical" I think that Johnson & Johnson would 23 So let's go straight to - let's go straight 24 u se w o u ld b e a n im provem ent o f m o th er's bo n d in g w ith 24 to 12, pag e 12. 25 the baby. 25 Okay. T here's a sam ple question here and a 35 (Pages 134 - 137) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 138 1 sample answer. 1 2 The question is: 2 3 "You are now test marketing JOHNSON'S Baby 3 4 Powder with cornstarch. Why does that product package 4 5 have a warning label and not JOHNSON'S Baby Powder with 5 6 talc, which is more dangerous?" 6 7 Answer: 7 8 "Our research has shown that normal use of 8 9 cosmetic talc is safe. As you said, JOHNSON'S Baby 9 10 Power with cornstarch is in the test market stage, and 10 11 does offer instructional and cautionary labeling. We 11 12 are in the process of developing this kind o f labeling 12 13 for JOHNSON'S Baby Powder". 13 14 Now, this is '85. You said you believed the 14 15 labeling for Johnson's Baby Powder or talc came out 15 16 late '80s, early '90s; right? 16 17 A Yeah. 17 18 Q Okay. 18 19 So at this point, Johnson & Johnson is 19 20 selling baby powder with cornstarch; true? 20 21 A Yes. 21 22 Q Okay. 22 23 When was the first time Johnson & Johnson 23 24 started selling cornstarch as an alternative to talc? 24 25 A I don't know the answer to that question. 25 Page 140 So the tw o products have sim ilar end use, but they have different physical properties. Q O kay. G o to page 26, please. H ere's the q u estio n th at J& J has p o sed for its folks to b e ab le to answ er. It's n u m b er 2 o n page 26. F ound it? A Yeah. Q Okay. Q uestion: "T h ere's n o m ed ical b en efit to b ab y p ow der, is there?" Jo h n so n & Jo h n so n 's answ er: "Talc is no t presented as having a m edical benefit, it is no t a drug". Is th at w hat Johnson & Johnson said there? A T h at's w h at th ey 're say in g th ere, yeah. Q Okay. T hen they go on to talk about m oisture and lubricity and all o f th at stuff; right? A Yeah. Q A nd touching? A Yeah. Q R ight. B ut they say: Page 139 Page 141 1 I'm going to be straight on that one. I 1 " [ I t ] ... is n o t presen ted as having a 2 don't know. 2 m edical benefit, it is not a drug". 3 Q Okay. Thank you for being straight on that 3 Correct? 4 one. 4 A Yeah. 5 Does Johnson & Johnson agree that if for any 5 Q Okay. 6 product it m akes, if it is aware o f a safer alternative 6 A That - let m e be clear, the definition o f a 7 ingredient to one that it is currently using, it should 7 drug or a m edical benefit relates to the U nited States 8 use the safer alternative ingredient? 8 drug law s w here a drag is one substance w hich is 9 A If - if the product produced the same 9 claimed as having a therapeutic or a treatm ent 10 b enefits -- sam e b enefits and co n su m er acceptance. 10 condition. 11 Q Okay. 11 The benefit that I think J& J w ould describe 12 A It's n ot unreasonable to say that, yeah. 12 it as is one that's in the very last line there: 13 Q Okay. 13 "... w hich fulfills a docum ented 14 Is cornstarch a safer alternative to talc? 14 psychological need for 'touching and bonding'". 15 A It's an alternative and it's safe, but the 15 Q Right. 16 behaviour is very different, and I'll try and explain 16 A W hich is not medical in the sense o f treating 17 w hy. It's to do w ith the physics. 17 as y ou w ould for a headache or a heart condition. It 18 Talc is dry. It acts as a dry lubricant. 18 is a psychological benefit to help bon d m other w ith 19 T h e talc p articles, w h ich lo o k like little dinner 19 baby. 20 plates, side plates, they slide over each other to give 20 Q Right. 21 th at dry lubricious feeling. Silky feeling. 21 There is no -- setting aside whatever 22 Cornstarch, on the other hand, is -- it's the 22 regulatory definition is, right - there is no medical 23 sam e stuff you m ake sauce with. It absorbs quite a lot 23 benefit to Johnson's B aby Powder. 24 o f m oisture. It doesn't slide, but it's good for 24 There are other benefits that Johnson & 25 absorbing m oisture. 25 Johnson w ants to talk about, but no m edical benefits; 36 (Pages 138 -141) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 142 Page 144 1 correct? 1 Last one. Go to page 44. 2 A W ell.no. Let m e -- let m e rephrase that, 2 Last question. Q uestion 3: 3 then, because I think I was trying to explain that a 3 "If your own studies link talc to ovarian 4 m edical benefit can include benefits w hich are not just 4 cancer, w ill you pull your talc products o ff the 5 drug type related, like aspirin or sudam enafin or a 5 market?" 6 heart drug. Those are obviously m edical benefits. 6 Answer: 7 B ut the m edical benefit, if you like, is m uch 7 "If such tests prove a cause and effect 8 greater than w hether it's treating a headache or w hat 8 relationship, yes w e w ould rem ove our talc products. 9 have you. 9 Johnson & Johnson would never place baby powder users 10 It's a broader benefit involving that deep 10 a t unacceptable risk. T he safety o f the consum er is 11 psy chological relationship -- 11 o u r prim ary concern". 12 Q Mmmhmm. 12 Is that - did I read that right? 13 A --b etw een a m o th er an d a baby, an d m any people 13 A Y ou did, yes. 14 w o u ld say th at th at is still a m edical benefit. 14 Q Okay. 15 It doesn't ju st stop because you're not 15 It said. 16 dealing w ith a headache, o r w h a t have you, o r a cough 16 "... w o u ld n ev er place ... u sers at 17 o r a cold. 17 unacceptable risk". 18 Q Okay. 18 Is there an acceptable risk that Johnson & 19 A It's a broader -- broader benefit. 19 Johnson w ould place its consum ers in? 20 That whole relationship between m other and 20 A N o risk is acceptable. 21 b aby is one w hich in m odem society is one w hich could 21 Q Okay. N o risk is acceptable. Okay. 22 easily break down, and we get cases w here m um s have no 22 A ll right, sir. You can set that aside and 23 affinity for their baby. 23 we can go o ff the record for our break. 24 Q A nd is that because they didn't use talc? 24 (O ff the record at 12:42 pm ) 25 A N o. I'm ju st saying that's one w here m aybe the 25 (O n the record at 1:23 pm ) Page 143 1 psychological relationship never develops. 1 2 Q Okay. 2 3 A Developing that psychological relationship with 3 4 products like talc, with baby lotion, baby cream, is 4 5 quite important for that relationship between a mother 5 6 and a baby. 6 7 Q They get the same benefit if they use 7 8 cornstarch powder, too; right? 8 9 A They would, yes. 9 10 Q Yeah. Okay. 10 11 So let's turn to page 41. 11 12 A Yes. 12 13 Q At the top o f that one. 13 14 Question: 14 15 "Why is J&J changing its flagship product to 15 16 contain cornstarch?" 16 17 Answer: 17 18 "We are not changing our flagship product. 18 19 JOHNSON'S Baby Powder has been on the market nearly 100 19 20 years and it remains the baby powder preferred by 20 21 consumers". 21 22 So there they've called Johnson's baby powder 22 23 their flagship product; correct? 23 24 A They have, yes. 24 25 Q Okay. 25 Page 145 BY M R PANATIER: Q A ll right, sir. Are you doing all right? A Thank you, yes. Q Okay. So let's quickly go back to Exhibit 6. This is the one where I was asking you about IARC, and you had said you had applied to be an observer, not one o f the experts; correct? A That was m y intention, yes. Q Okay. G o ahead and turn to the second page, and the very last sentence from V incent Cogliano and Robert Baan. They say: "Finally, you m ay w ish to note that M onograph m eetings can accom m odate a lim ited num ber o f Observer: who m ay be nom inated via our web site until Novem ber 1". A Yeah. Q So it appears you were applying to be one o f the experts on the working group, because they actually offer you to apply to be an observer; correct? A W ell, I read w hat it says here, but that is not the reality. T hat does not reflect the reality. Q Okay. 37 (Pages 142 - 145) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 146 Page 148 1 A I didn't expect to be accepted as on the 1 consum er products company. W hen I was there, it was 2 w orking group, the expert w orking group. I didn't 2 in - ju st outside Princeton. 3 apply to that. M y intention was to apply as an 3 Q Okay. 4 observer. 4 A Yeah. 5 They --it's alm ost --this reads to m e like 5 Q A nd did they get subscriptions to journals and 6 it's a standard boilerplate letter that they've just 6 things like that? 7 stuck -- cut and pasted and sent it out. 7 A Yes. 8 Q W ell, either w ay, they certainly are treating 8 Q Such as JAMA? 9 it as if you applied to be an expert on the working 9 A Yes. 10 group, an d th ey o ffered y o u to ap p ly to b e an observer; 10 Q Right. 11 c o llect? 11 That's the Journal o f the A m erican M edical 12 A W ell, like I say, this reads to m e like it's a 12 A ssociation; right? 13 standard boilerplate response th at's b e en c u t and 13 A Y es, that's correct. 14 pasted. 14 Q Som e o f the other big ones would be the British 15 I did not apply because, basically, I 15 Journal o f Industrial M edicine; right? 16 didn't --yo u know , I knew w ho the people w ere w ho were 16 A It's --yeah, I can't recollect that particular 17 going to be on the IA RC w orking group, the actual 17 one, b ut it's the kind o f thing that w ould be there. 18 p arty. In fact, they're peo p le w h o are -- that's fine. 18 Q Okay. 19 They're nom inated. 19 A In principle, yes. 20 But m y intention when I applied was to apply 20 Q N ew England Journal o f M edicine? 21 to b e no m in ated as a n observer, and I d id a p p ly through 21 A Yeah, N ew England Journal o f M edicine. 22 the website. 22 Q The Lancet? 23 So this --this response --it looks like 23 A Yeah. 24 it's a fairly standard response --is one w hich 24 Q W hat about the N ew York Academ y o f Sciences? 25 m entions, b u t it doesn't describe the reality o f the 25 A I can't rem em ber. It's not one that's top o f Page 147 Page 149 1 situation. The reality was that I applied to be an 1 mind. 2 observer. 2 Q Okay. 3 Q Okay. 3 A That's for sure. 4 They are certainly not responding as if you 4 Q And, at least for the big journals, things like 5 applied to be an observer; correct? 5 JA M A and N ew England Journal o f M edicine, British 6 A They are and, you know, like I say, this reads 6 Journal o f Industrial M edicine, are those types o f 7 to m e like this is a standard boilerplate response 7 journals that they w ould have had subscriptions to for 8 w here som eone's ju st cut and pasted a standard letter, 8 decades? 9 w hich they send out to anyone and everyone. 9 A I w ould think so, yes. 10 But I applied to be an observer. 10 Q A ll right. 11 Q Okay. 11 A Yes, yeah. 12 Okay. Y ou can set that aside. A ll right. 12 Q Okay. A ll right. 13 Y ou can se t th at aside, sir. 13 Now, when did Johnson & Johnson first learn 14 A Yeah. 14 that asbestos could be hazardous in any context? 15 Q Okay. Johnson & Johnson. 15 A In the m edical literature, you can find reports 16 D id Johnson & Johnson keep a library? 16 o f asbestos disease, asbestosis, going back to the turn 17 A Yes. 17 o f the last century, the early 1900s, you'll find 18 Q M edical library? 18 reports o f asbestos disease in industrial w orkers. 19 A Yes. 19 Q Okay. 20 Q Okay. 20 A nd then going into the 1930s you see 21 Pretty big m edical library; true? 21 instances o f cancer from asbestos; correct? 22 A Yes. 22 A Correct, yes. 23 Q Right. 23 Q A ll right. 24 W as that there in N ew Brunswick? 24 And, in fact, in 1949, in the Journal o f the 25 A It w as in the research departm ent o f the 25 Am erican M edical Association, there was a paper --I 38 (Pages 146 - 149) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 150 Page 152 1 have it here --called --it was an editorial called 1 exam ination w ith detailed histologic analysis." 2 A sbestosis and cancer o f the lung. 2 Q Right. 3 Are you familiar with that one? 3 So that's --this author at least is pretty 4 A No, no. 4 convincingly putting the case for lung cancer from the 5 Q All right. 5 disease asbestosis; fair? 6 I'm ju st going to mark that one. Let's chat 6 A He is, yes. 7 about that one for a minute. 7 Q A ll right. 8 Exhibit 14. There you go. 8 A nd you don't dispute that that appeared in 9 (Exhibit 14 marked for identification) 9 the literature in JA M A in 1949, do you? 10 M S FROST: D id you say Exhibit 14? 10 A T hat is exactly w hat is w ritten here, yes. 11 M R PA N A TIER : Y es, th at's 14. 11 Q Okay. 12 MS FROST: Okay. 12 Y ou can set that aside, sir. 13 B Y M R PA N A TIER : 13 T here w e go. T his is E xhibit 15. 14 Q All right, and that is an editorial by 14 (Exhibit 15 m arked for identification) 15 Fishbein. I think it's on the front cover. 15 This is --if you turn to the second to last 16 A It is on the font page, yeah. 16 page, you'll see y our signature there from July 7, 17 Q Right. 17 2016? 18 Published in the Journal o f the American 18 A Yeah. 19 M edical A ssociation in 1949; right? 19 Q Right? 20 A Yeah. 20 A nd this is a declaration that you filled out 21 Q Okay. 21 in the P ay an case, o r P ayan case? 22 And inside there is the title o f the article 22 A Yes. 23 highlighted, w hich is - w hat? W hat does it say? 23 Q Right. Okay. 24 A A sbestosis and cancer o f the lung. 24 W as this a case w here you w ere retained as an 25 Q Okay. 25 ex p ert w itness b y Jo h n so n & Johnson's law yers? Page 151 Page 153 1 A nd then there's another highlight that I've 1 A Yes. 2 got there. D o you w ant to read that out loud? 2 Q Is this an ovarian cancer case? 3 A Yeah. 3 A No. 4 "During [the] 23 years, 1924 to 1946 4 Q Okay. 5 inclusive, 235 deaths, either caused by asbestosis or 5 A N o, it wasn't. 6 in which asbestos had been established at necropsy, 6 Q All right. 7 were reported to the C hief Inspector. Cancer o f the 7 G o to p ag e 3. 8 lungs o r p leu ra w as found in 31 o f these cases." 8 A I'm not --I don't w ant to be certain on that. 9 Q A nd they're talking about cancer o f the lungs 9 Q Okay. That's fine. 10 or pleura in individuals exposed to asbestos --w ith 10 A I w as retained, but it's a w hile back. 11 asbestosis; correct? 11 Yeah? 12 A Yes. 12 Q Okay. 13 Q Okay. 13 D o yo u see paragraph 18, you write: 14 N ow , the pleura, that's w here m esotheliom a 14 "Although asbestos was not known as a hazard 15 occurs; correct? 15 in 1949, th e presence o f asbestos w as even a t th at tim e 16 A Correct, yes. 16 considered highly undesirable as the 'feel' o f its 17 Q All right. 17 presence on the skin is regarded as unpleasant and 18 G o ahead and turn the page to the next page. 18 cosm etically unacceptable". 19 There's another highlight. G o ahead and read that 19 Okay, and you're talking about if it w as in 20 highlight for us. 20 talc; right? 21 A "As the available evidence shows that the 21 A Yes. 22 occurrence o f cancer o f the lung is related to 22 Q Okay. 23 pulm onary asbestosis a n d ... n o t m erely a possible 23 B ut you say: 2 4 sequela o f exposure to asbestos d u s t,... all fatal 24 "Although asbestos was not known as a hazard 25 cases o f asbestosis there should be [a] postm ortem 25 in 1949 ..." 39 (Pages 150 - 153) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 154 Page 156 1 N ow , that's not true, is it? 1 have been expected." 2 A N o, it's probably a m isunderstanding. 2 A nd you don't dispute that that w as published 3 I f you go three lines higher in bold font, a 3 in 1898, here in England? 4 larger font -- 4 A Y eah, that's right. That w as one o f the first 5 Q Mmm hmm. 5 publications, and there were others that followed -- 6 A --the heading talks about Specification o f 6 Q Okay. 7 Cosm etic Talc. 7 A --in the next five, ten years. 8 A nd w hen I'm talking about the specification 8 Q A ll right. 9 o f cosm etic talc, I'm saying that, although asbestos 9 W ere you aw are that the State o f California 10 w as n o t a k n o w n h azard in 1949 as p a rt o f the 10 had a regulation on airborne asbestos as o f 1936? 11 sp ecification o f cosm etic talc, so it's really --I'm 11 A I w as aw are there w as a regulation. I w asn 't 12 talking about the specification o f cosm etic talc. 12 sure o f exact date. 13 So I'm talking about the requirem ent for 13 Q Okay. 14 absence o f asbestos in cosm etic talc. 14 A B ut I believe you if you say 1936. 15 So w hat I'm saying is asbestos w as not a 15 Q A ll right. 16 know n hazard in talc in 1949. 16 Y ou don't dispute it? 17 Q Okay. 17 A N o , I d o n 't dispute it. 18 So y o u 're n o t - because the w ords yo u w rote 18 Q Okay. All right. 19 w ere: 19 N eedless to say --I think this is fairly 20 "Although asbestos was not known as a hazard 20 obvious, but there has never been a warning regarding 21 in 1949..." 21 asbestos on any o f Johnson & Johnson's talc pow ders; 22 W hat you're talking about is in talc? 22 fair? 23 A Y es, because that's the - if you very 23 A That's fair. 24 carefully, three lines above in heavy, bold font, 24 Q Okay. 25 "specification o f Cosm etic Talc. 25 A B ecause there's never been any asbestos in the Page 155 Page 157 1 A s I've said, toxicologists have been aware 1 talc products. 2 that asbestos was a hazard since 1905 or 1903, early 2 Q N ow , Johnson's B aby Pow der w as first sold when? 3 publications. 3 A 1890s. N o, a little earlier than that. 1870s. 4 Q Are you aware o f a publication actually in - 4 Q Okay. 5 from the C hief Inspector o f Factories in London, 5 A Yeah. 6 England, in 1898? 6 Q A nd the containers and packaging always said 7 A That's it, yeah. 7 som ething to the effect o f Johnson's B aby Pow der or 8 Q Right? 8 Johnson & Johnson Baby Powder? 9 A Yeah. 9 A Correct, yes. 10 Q And, in fact, there in that publication, they 10 Q Right. 11 said: 11 From looking at some historical samples, it 12 "The evil effects o f asbestos dust have also 12 looks like there w as a period o f tim e w here the 13 attracted m y attention. A m icro sco p ic exam ination o f 13 containers w ere m etal? 14 th is m ineral du st w hich w a s m ade b y H M --" a n d th at 14 A Yes. 15 m ean s H e r M ajesty's; right? 15 Q A nd then there w as a period o f tim e w hen they 16 A Yeah. 16 w ere plastic. 17 Q M edical Inspector clearly revealed the 17 Do you know when that cross over was, or if 18 sharp g lass-lik e ja g g e d n atu re o f the particles --" 18 there w as ever a clean cross over? 19 A nd that's --you've said som ething sim ilar? 19 A For m ost o f the tim e, it was metal. I believe 20 A Yeah, needle-like. 20 that there w as probably a time, certainly in the UK, 21 Q Needle-like. Right. 21 probably in the late '40s, early '50s, w hen it w as 22 A Yeah, yeah. 22 actually stiff cardboard. 23 Q " and w here they are allow ed to rise and to 23 Q Mmm hmm. 24 remain suspended in the air o f a room in any quantity 24 A There w as a difficulty in getting metal. 25 the effects have been found to be injurious as m ight 25 They m oved to plastic in the early 1980s in 40 (Pages 154 - 157) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 158 Page 160 1 the UK. 1 think probably the same tim e in the US. 1 also". 2 Q Okay. 2 R ig h t? 3 A Late '70s, early '80s. 3 A Yes. 4 N o, I'm going to correct that. 4 Q So you're w riting this fellow? 5 Q Mmmhmm? 5 A Yeah. 6 A I think it was early 1980s, yeah. 6 Q A nd you've attached a m em o from Bill A shton to 7 Q Okay. 7 you. 8 W hen did Show er to Show er first com e out? 8 N ow , W illiam Ashton was at Johnson & Johnson 9 A I don't know the answ er to that question. 9 and dealing with the talc and asbestos issue since the 10 Q W hat about Johnson & Johnson's m edicated 10 '50s; right? 11 p ow der? 11 A V ery early'50s, yes. 12 A Again, I think that was approxim ately late 12 Q Yeah. Okay. 13 '60s. approxim ately. 13 A nd w hat he wrote to you here in 1996, he 14 Q Okay. 14 says: 15 G oing back, this w ill bring us into our next 15 "Attached is page eleven o f the current issue 16 topic, b u t it's a fairly recen t docum ent. 16 o f A CTPA Guide, w herein Fred Pooley m akes the 17 T his is E x h ib it 16. 17 suggestion that any batch o f cosm etic talc w hich reads 18 (Exhibit 16 m arked for identification) 18 positive for the presence o f am phiboles should be 19 This is a letter you w rote in 1996. January 19 rejected even i f subsequent exam ination establishes 20 29,1996; right? 20 whether or not the m ineral is fibrous or non-fibrous". 21 A Yes. 21 So w hat he's saying there is apparently 22 Q A nd it is to Ian Phillipson, H ead o f Scientific 22 Pooley, w ho's been your consultant for a w hile, is 23 Services at the Cosm etic Toiletry & Perfum ery 23 saying a lot o f talc should be rejected whether -- if 24 A ssociation Lim ited. 24 it's got am phiboles, w hether they are fibrous o r not; 25 That w ould be the U K version o f the CTFA or 25 correct? Page 159 Page 161 1 the PCPC? 1 A That's w hat it reads. 2 A That's correct, yes. 2 Q Okay. 3 Q You say: 3 "W e need clarification on this since it is in 4 "Please find attached a note to m yself from 4 conflict w ith all w ork here in the U S based prim arily 5 B ill Ashton w ho is a long serving talc expert in J&J. 5 on the m ineral trem olite w hich is present in trace 6 I showed Bill a draft o f the CTPA guide for his 6 amounts in m any high grade talcs". 7 comment. 7 Now , was trem olite present in the talcs used 8 As you see, he has some concerns on the 8 by Johnson & Johnson from the '60s until through the 9 m atter o f trem olite. The issue is w hether there should 9 2000s, or through the --let's say the '90s? 10 be any concern over non-fibrous trem olite. 10 A Okay. W e alluded to this earlier in our 11 I have a lot o f respect for Bill's view s on 11 discussions th is m orning. 12 details such as th is a n d w o u ld propose th at y o u m ight 12 I f trem olite w as present, it w as present in 13 sound o u t F re d P o o ley on th is m atter". 13 the non-asbestos form . W hat's called the "m assive" or 14 Now, Fred Pooley was a long tim e consultant 14 "prism atic" form. 15 to Johnson & Johnson; correct? 15 Q B ut w hat your consultant is saying is whether 16 A Yes. 16 it's the "m assive" form o r the fibrous form , it should 17 Q Okay. 17 be rejected; correct? 18 G oing back certainly to the early '70s? 18 A W ell, that's apparently w hat it says here. 19 A Correct. 19 I've not seen the --I don't have w ith m e the 20 Q Yes. 20 original CTPA draft specification. 21 "In the final CTPA m onograph -- if the final 21 It was a draft. I know that. 22 CTPA m onograph is not yet issued to print, could you 22 Q Right. 23 consider helping resolve this as soon as possible. You 23 A A nd I was given opportunity to comment, and 24 w ill see from the second paragraph o f B ill A shton's 24 obviously D r Pooley had a comment. 25 letter that there are long-standing and w ider issues 25 D r Pooley's com m ent, in m y opinion, and I do 4 1 (Pages 158 -161) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 162 Page 164 1 respect him , he's one o f the w orld's leading geologists 1 basis". 2 in understanding asbestos and trem olite and all the 2 R ig h t? 3 other m aterials that you m ight find --it reads to me 3 A Yeah. 4 that he was being ultra cautious. 4 Q A nd you said: freedom from asbestos and 5 A nd w e discussed this earlier today where if 5 am phibole m inerals; correct? 6 you exclude any amphibole, then you will certainly 6 A I said that to him, yes. 7 exclude any asbestos, but not all amphiboles are 7 Q A nd that's basically w hat Pooley is saying 8 asbestos. 8 here. 9 So he's taking the extrem e cautious -- the 9 N ot just the asbestos, the fibrous, but also 10 scientist's approach, w hich is n o t unreasonable. 10 the non-fibrous; correct? 11 B ut in this particular case, because the CTFA 11 A That is correct. 12 specification a n d the Johnson & Jo h n so n additional w o rk 12 Q Okay. 13 th at's done to exam ine talc u sin g transm ission electron 13 A A nd I've explained the rationale for that - 14 m icroscopy and infrared spectroscopy, clearly is able 14 Q You have. 15 to separate o u t trem olite asbestos from the 15 A --is that in m any cases some affiliates may 16 non-asbestos trem olite. 16 not have the sophisticated equipm ent to separate out 17 So in a sense his concerns are not --not 17 the asbestos trem olite from the non-asbestos trem olite. 18 n ecessarily v a lid in this p articu lar case. 18 Q Right. 19 Q W ell, nine years later w hen you author the 19 A So m y advice to that particular company was -- 20 Process for qualification and approval o f new or 20 it w as the Philippines --w as to say: you've got to 21 alternative sources for cosm etic talc, you actually 21 take this super-precautionary approach. 22 adopt that freedom from asbestos and amphibole 22 Q It w as w hat Fred Pooley suggested to you in 23 m inerals; correct? 23 1996? 24 A A nd the reason I did that, the individual who's 24 A It was, but at that time, the company was 25 writing to m e was from the Philippines company and I 25 already taking that super-precautionary approach by Page 163 Page 165 1 felt that they did not necessarily have in the 1 using transm ission electron m icroscopy in addition to 2 Philippines the sophisticated m ethodology to take out 2 the CTFA specification. 3 any product that m ay just have had simple amphibole 3 Q W ell, let m e --let m e ask you this question. 4 that was not asbestos. 4 In 1996, Pooley says don't use --don't use 5 So w hen I was writing to the Philippines, I 5 it, even if it's got non-fibrous trem olite in it or 6 w as taking a very cautious approach, and that's not 6 am phibole, and A shton says this is at: 7 unreasonable. 7 "... conflict w ith all the w ork here in the 8 B y taking a cautious approach, you say: any 8 U S based prim arily on the m ineral trem olite w hich is 9 prism atic m aterial w ould also be excluded, even 9 present in trace am ounts in m any high grade talcs". 10 am phibole m aterial. 10 A Yes. 11 Q Okay. 11 Q Before that tim e, did Johnson & Johnson allow 12 A So you're taking a precautionary approach. 12 there to b e the presence o f m assive form am phibole, or 13 Q W ell, the reason - 13 am phibole m inerals in its talc ore? 14 A B ut that was because I w as dealing with the 14 A Okay. Let's phrase it the other way. 15 P hilippines w here the F ilipinos m ay n o t h a v e h a d the 15 The specification has always been freedom 16 sophisticated equipm ent to separate out the tw o types 16 from asbestos, asbestos m aterials, including asbestos 17 o f trem olite. 17 trem olite. 18 Q W ell, let's be clear, w e talked about this w ith 18 W hen you delve deeper, if you get any 19 th e first docum ent. 19 suspicion and you go through x-ray diffraction, through 20 W hether you're w riting to the Philippines or 20 polarized light m icroscopy, and then down into scanning 21 w hoever -- 21 electron m icroscopy, infrared techniques, you can then 22 A Yeah. 22 exclude asbestos trem olite from the non-asbestos 23 Q -- w hat you said was: 23 trem olite and -- 24 "There are however certain parameters for 24 Q H ere's w h a t I'm asking -- I un derstand that. 25 w hich a m in im u m standard m u st be m ain tain ed on a globa 125 W hat I'm asking is: before 1996, did Johnson 42 (Pages 162 - 165) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 166 Page 168 1 & Johnson have a policy to exclude non-fibrous 1 falls to the bottom. 2 amphiboles in its talc sources? 2 So flotation w as a w ay o f really raising the 3 That's all I'm asking. 3 quality o f the talc so that it feels good on the skin. 4 A Okay. 4 That w as the whole point o f the flotation process. 5 The policy was never w ritten in that 5 Q Sure. 6 phraseology. The policy is w ritten to say the company 6 So w hat you're saying is before you even get 7 w ill comply to the CTFA specification, w hich is to 7 to flotation, if you had an ore source that had any 8 exclude asbestos. 8 m assive form am phibole in it, that would have been hand 9 It does not go on to talk in detail o f 9 picked out before you even get to flotation? 10 d ifferen t kin d s o f m aterials, d ifferent k in ds o f 10 A Yes. 11 m inerals. It ju s t talk s about exclusion o f asbestos. 11 Q So you w ould not expect to find any in the 12 Period. 12 flotation? 13 Q So if Johnson & Johnson had an ore source that 13 A Y ou w ould not. 14 had , yo u k now , m assive form am phiboles in it, Joh n so n & 14 Q Okay. 15 Joh n so n w o u ld be o k ay usin g th at source so long as it 15 Now, is it generally true that, you know, the 16 p assed the C T F A o n th e final end; right? 16 m ore o f the m ineral y o u fin d --let's ju s t say 17 A T he - I'll repeat it. 17 trem olite, okay - the m ore o f the m assive form you 18 The C T FA specification dem ands that there is 18 find, the higher likelihood it is that you start to get 19 absence o f asbestos. T hat's it. 19 fibrous form , an d that's w h y it's im portant to try to 20 A nd there's a w hole series o f tests and 20 keep the massive down? 21 techniques y o u go on to p ro v e absence o f asbestos. 21 A Yeah. I think you do a disservice to the 22 So anything that m eets that specification 22 miners. 23 could be acceptable, providing it m et other param eters. 23 W hen you're m ining talc, m y understanding is 24 Q Even if the original talc ore had massive 24 that the m iners can clearly see the difference between 25 amphibole; correct? 25 talc and non-talc or non-talc rock. Page 167 Page 169 1 A Again, w e go back to w hat I explained earlier. 1 They essentially don't go there. T hey well 2 Q W ell, ju st answ er the question? 2 avoid those areas w here there could be non-talc 3 A Okay. 3 materials. 4 The m assive talc ore is separated out at the 4 So, essentially, w hen you're pulling it out 5 tim e o f m anufacturing and m ining to exclude non-talc 5 o f the m ine, you're pulling out pretty high grade talc 6 m aterials. A nything that comes on the conveyor belt is 6 to start with. So you're not even going to go anywhere 7 physically excluded by hand. 7 near non-talc m aterials, whether they be trem olite or 8 So you essentially remove those possible 8 just rock, basically. 9 contam inates before it even got to the grinding mill. 9 Q Yeah, but just in a vacuum , the more massive 10 Q Okay. 10 form you have, the h igher opportunity you have to have 11 A nd is the grinding m ill before flotation? 11 asbestos o f th a t m ineral; correct? 12 A Yes. 12 A W ell, let's try and repeat that again. 13 Q So flotation is sort o f a purification method; 13 W hen you're m ining this m aterial, you don't 14 right? 14 go anyw here n e ar the m assive form o f trem olite or any 15 A That's a misconception. 15 o th er rock, q u artz o r w h atev er it m ay be. 16 Flotation is a process w hereby you raise the 16 The talc is very clearly differentiated in 17 quality o f th e talc. 17 the m ine. It looks lik e talc. T he w h ite -- off-w hite 18 A s I said earlier, talc --cosm etic talc, you 18 ro ck looks lik e talc, a n d the m iners know w h a t they're 19 achieve y o u r requirem ents b y getting a hig h level o f 19 looking for, a n d there's a clear delineation, a clear 20 plate-like structures, and the plate-like structures, 20 separation betw een talc and m inerals that are not talc. 21 preferably the larger plates, w ork by sliding over each 21 A nd the m iners know w hat they're doing. 22 other. 22 That's their job. 23 Flotation encourages the large platy material 23 Q A ll right. 24 to rise to the top o f the tank. They can be separated 24 I'm going to w rite on the chart up here, and 25 o u t and m aterial th at d oesn't m eet th at requirem ent 25 if I get in your personal space I'm going to apologize 43 (Pages 166 - 169) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 170 Page 172 1 because w e're sort o f cram ped for som e space, but I 1 It is right at the front. Thanks. 2 w ant everybody to be able to see the cam era and 2 T his w ill be E xhibit 19. Is th at w here w e 3 yourself and your attorneys; okay? 3 are? 4 A ll right. A ll right. So you w hat said was, 4 M S FROST: Seventeen. 5 and I'll ju st p u t it in black --you said w as --and 5 M R PA N A TIER: 17. Okay. H ere it is. This 6 let m e be clear before I even start writing, is if 6 w ill be exhibit 17. Here you go, sir. 7 there's any am phibole, it is picked out by the m iners 7 (Exhibit 17 m arked for identification) 8 before it even reaches flotation; right? 8 Q So we're ju st going to kind o f m ake a little 9 A I didn't say those exact words. 9 record here. Again, this was one o f the documents 10 W hat I said w as if there are rocks that don't 10 supplied to us by Johnson & Johnson. 11 fit the definition o f talc, th ey are p u lled o u t b y the 11 Y ou can see this is from the U nited States 12 m in ers o r th ey av o id them in the first place. 12 P u blic H ealth Service. T h is is O ctober 6 ,1 9 4 8 ; 13 Non-talc ore or non-talc rocks are avoided 13 correct? 14 an d i f th ey are caught, then they're p ick ed out. 14 A Yes. 15 Q Okay. 15 Q Okay. 16 So that w ould include amphibole asbestos; 16 A nd this is a report o f --it says: 17 correct? O r am phibole m inerals? 17 "The following results were obtained upon 18 A It w ould include m inerals that are clearly not 18 com pletion o f analyses o f the m ineral sam ples w hich you 19 talc. 19 subm itted for identification and analyses ..." 20 Q Okay. 20 A nd it's to the State D epartm ent - State o f 21 A Yes. 21 V irginia D epartm ent o f Public H ealth; right? 22 Q So those w ould be picked out before they went 22 A Yeah. 23 into the flotation process? 23 Q A nd you'll notice that for m inerals present, 24 A Yes. 24 there's five sam ples. 25 Q Okay. 25 U nder sam ple 4 it says: Page 171 Page 173 1 So I'm go in g to w rite: am phibole m inerals 1 "S erpentine an d asbestos [sic]1'. 2 w ould b e p ick ed out before flotation. 2 O r it says: 3 M S FR O ST : C hris, for purposes o f the 3 "Serpentine Asbestos". 4 record -- 4 Correct? 5 M R PA N A TIER : Yes. 5 A It does, yes. 6 M S FR O ST : --w e m ade an agreem ent on an; r 6 Q A nd the little handwritten part says, "VT", and 7 objections to questions. 7 you can see there's a V erm ont and an arrow to all the 8 M R P A N A T IE R : A p p lies to this, too. 8 other samples, except for the last one, which says, 9 M S F R O S T : A ll right. 9 "N ew Y ork Talc"; correct? 10 M R PA N A TIER : Yes. 10 A It does say that, yes. 11 M S F R O S T : S o a ll o f m y o b je c tio n s to y o u r 11 Q Okay. 12 w ritin g s -- 12 I'm ju st going to put "VT", because that was 13 M R PA N A T IE R : Sure. 13 w h a t w as w ritten. 14 M S FR O ST : - and characterizations are 14 Okay. Y ou can see that set aside, sir. 15 r e s e r v e d to th e t im e a t w h i c h th is tr a n s c r i p t o r t h is 15 The next one is num ber 4. 16 v id eo tap e is attem p ted to b e u sed in an y form . 16 Now, the Italian talc that Johnson & Johnson 17 M R P A N A T IE R : Y e s, a n d in fa c t th e w a y it' 17 used was the 00000 talc; correct? 18 b e in g r e c o r d e d is , if, f o r in s ta n c e , y o u o b je c t to th is 18 A Correct, yes. 19 and it com es out, w e can ju st p lay the w itness. 19 Q So this w ill be E x h ib it 18. 20 M S F R O S T : T hank you for the clarification. 20 (Exhibit 18 m arked for identification) 21 M R PA N A T IE R : Sure. Sure. 21 H ere you go, sir. 22 Q A ll right. So th is is w h a t y o u 'v e to ld us. 22 Now, this is a report to Johnson & Johnson. 23 W h a t I w a n t to d o is g o th ro u g h so m e o f th e 23 Y ou can see that on the third page in, or w here it says 24 records w e have; okay? 24 October 15,1957; do you see that? 25 L eah , i f y o u c an g o ah ea d an d g rab n u m b er 2 '2 5 A Yeah. 44 (Pages 170 - 173) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 174 Page 176 1 Q Okay. 1 in all size fractions, being slightly m ore abundant in 2 So w e're going to go: 10.15.57. 2 the fines. Am ong other contam inants, present in trace 3 A nd this is a study done by the Battelle 3 amounts, are amphiboles, rutile, zircon, apatite, and 4 M em orial Institute; correct? 4 titanite". 5 A Correct, yes. 5 R ig h t? 6 Q A nd you know w ho they are. They're a 6 A Yes. 7 scientific research group; right? 7 Q So here you're learning that there's trace 8 A They are, yes. 8 amphiboles; right? 9 Q A nd they'll do w hatever types o f studies 9 A Yes. 10 they're capable o f th a t a com pany m ig h t ask th em to 10 Q In the Italian 00000; correct? 11 perform ; correct? 11 A Yes. 12 A That is correct, yes. 12 Q A nd by the way, amphibole is a general category 13 Q All right. Okay. 13 o f certain m inerals th at are com m only associated w ith 14 So this is from O ctober, '57. 14 asbestos; correct? 15 If you would, please, sir, turn to the page 15 A Y ou get amphiboles that are not asbestos, 16 at the bottom , the B ates stam p ends w ith 1038. 16 correct. N ot asbestos. 17 A ll right. I've highlighted som e things to 17 Q Sure. 18 situate us. 18 The ones w e're prim arily talking about with 19 The top highlight just says: 19 talc are trem olite, actinolite and anthophyllite; true? 20 "The comparative physical measurements were 20 A It is possible, yes. 21 m ade upon sized fractions and w hole sam ples o f Italian 21 Q Those are the ones that usually crop up when 22 talc with conventional laboratory devices". 22 they do crop up? 23 A nd then under Introduction it tells us which 23 A Yeah. 24 talc we're talking about: 24 Q Fair? 25 "The talc currently used by Johnson & 25 Okay. A ll right, sir. Y ou can set that Page 175 Page 177 1 Johnson, obtained from Pinerolo, Italy, is believed to 1 aside. 2 be a blend o f five or m ore different grades o f ore, 2 N ow , we're going to go a year later. This is 3 w hich gives a high quality, lubricious powder". 3 5. 4 D id I read that right? 4 T his w ill be 19. 5 A Y ou read that correctly, yes. 5 (Exhibit 19 m arked for identification) 6 Q The next highlight tells us w hich ones they're 6 T here you go, sir. 7 using in these tests: 7 I'm sorry to throw them at you, but it's the 8 "The measurements o f the physical properties 8 only w ay I can get them there. 9 o f acceptable talc, and their range, have been made 9 Okay. So this one, sir, do you see this is 10 upon a series o f one kilogram sam ples o f grade 'EGT 10 from January 2 4 ,1 9 5 8 ? Right? 11 E x tra 0 0 0 0 0 '..." 11 A Yeah. 12 R ig h t? 12 Q A nd this is again from Battelle; correct? 13 A Correct. 13 A Yes. 14 Q O kay, and that's your talc; correct? 14 Q To Johnson & Johnson? 15 A 00000 is J& J talc. 15 A Yes, yeah. 16 Q Okay. 16 Q A nd you can see that for, and w e'll w rite the 17 N ow , go ahead and turn to the next page. It 17 date up here, this is January 2 4 ,1 9 6 8 . 18 sh o u ld b e th e p ag e m ark e d 3 a t the top, I'm sorry. 18 O r, I'm sorry, this m ay be '58. L et m e see 19 T he Role o f M ineralogical Purity in 19 i f I h av e the date right. It's to u g h to read. It's 20 Lubricity. Do you see that? 20 old. 21 A Yes. 21 It m ay b e '68, so w e'll ju st p u t 68, so it 22 Q It says: 22 m ight be a little bit out o f order. B ut benefit o f the 23 "The Italian talc contains from about 97 to 23 doubt. 24 m ore than 99 per cent pure m ineral talc. The 24 Do you see there on the first page it says 25 predom inant contam inant is carbonate w hich is present 25 M ineralogical Com position o f Samples Investigated, and 45 (Pages 174 - 177) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 178 Page 180 1 for both Italian 2 and 1 it has 1 per cent and trace 1 sam e sam ples o f'E G T E xtra 00000' ta l c ..." 2 reflected for trem olite; correct? 2 C o rrect? 3 A Yeah. 3 A Correct. 4 Q A nd I'm going to put "TR", because that's 4 Q So this is the talc w e've been talking about, 5 usually how they do it, and w e'll see som e other 5 the Italian talc? 6 docum ents, for trace: trem olite in Italian. 6 A Y es, that's correct. 7 Okay. Now, sir, this is in the documents 7 Q A ll right. 8 you've review ed; correct? 8 If you turn to the next page, please, if you 9 A I don't think I review ed this particular one. 9 look at the second paragraph, I've got the highlight 10 Q Okay. 10 there: 11 A Y eah,but-- 11 "It occurs as aggregates o f talc and 12 Q You see this i s -- 12 contam inants, as acicular and fibrous particles o f talc 13 A -- it's not fam iliar to me. 13 a n d am phibole, as shards an d granules o f am phibole o r 14 Q Y ou see this is a Johnson & Johnson document? 14 carbonate, and as prism atic grains o f titanite, rutile, 15 A Yeah, yeah. 15 zircon, apatite, an d o ther [a c c e s so rie s ]..." 16 Q W ith the Bates label down at the bottom? 16 C o rrect? 17 A Yeah, yeah. 17 Is that what it says? 18 Q Okay. 18 A Yeah. 19 A nd you don't dispute it was supplied to us 19 Q Okay. 20 by Johnson & Johnson? 20 A It says: 21 A I do not, no. 21 " G r it ... [occurs as] bo th oversize and 22 Q Okay. 22 n o n p laty talc p articles --" 23 All right, sir. Y ou can set that aside. 23 Q That's right. - 24 Again, w e're going through these ju st so we 24 A A nd grit occurs as aggregates o f talc and 25 can have a little basis to talk about som e o f these 25 contaminants, yeah. Page 179 Page 181 1 other documents. 1 Q A nd the grit is something that is present in 2 The next one will be num ber 6. It will be 2 the ore before it's refined; correct? 3 Exhibit 20. 3 A Yes. 4 (Exhibit 20 m arked for identification) 4 Q Okay. 5 W e need to assem ble a pulley system so w e can 5 So w hat I'm going to p u t here is I'm going to 6 get these docum ents across the table. 6 w rite for the grit, ju st so w e're clear, the grit has 7 A ll right. This is again a report from 7 acicular and fibrous particles o f talc and amphibole; 8 Battelle. T his one is M ay 9,1 9 5 8 ; true? 8 correct? 9 A Yes. 9 A Yes. 10 Q The report itself, and it looks like it was 10 M S FR O ST: A nd if you need to read the whole 11 received a m o n th later? 11 do cu m en t -- 12 A Yeah. 12 THE W ITNESS: Yeah. 13 Q O r so. 13 M S FROST: --y o u can. 14 Tw o m onths later, July 18, '58? 14 B Y M R PANATIER: 15 A Yeah. 15 Q Then the next paragraph, the highlight says: 16 Q That's the - so that's the date I'll put. 16 "The 8 to 10 p er cent o f nonplaty talc in the 17 A Yes. 17 Italian m aterial is presum ed to b e derived from 18 Q I'll put: 7.18. 18 trem olite o r enstatite". 19 A nd then this is 1958. 19 Does it say that? 20 A Okay. 20 A It does say that, yes. 21 Q I f you'll turn, please, sir, to the page m arked 21 Q Okay. 22 at the bottom , 911 is the Bates stamp. 22 D ow n at the bottom: 23 A t the very bottom , you can see it says: 23 "The Italian No. 1 talc contains from less 24 "Except w here otherwise noted, the 24 than 1 per cent to about 3 per cent o f contaminants. 25 m easurem ents presented in this report were m ade on the 25 The contam ination is natural and consists m ostly o f 46 (Pages 178 -181) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 182 Page 184 1 carbonate w ith m inor amphibole and rare accessory 1 Q Okay? 2 minerals". 2 A -- there is w hat's described as "trace 3 D id I read that right? 3 trem olite". 4 A You did, yes. 4 Q A ll right. 5 Q D ow n at the bottom: 5 A N on-asbestos tremolite. 6 "The amphibole component has been established 6 Q Does it say non-asbestos? 7 to be the variety trem olite ..." 7 A No, but w e know that from m any, m any audits o f 8 Right? 8 the mine. 9 A Correct, yeah. 9 Q W here does it say non-asbestos in that 10 Q Now, I think this is one w here we can go -- w e 10 docum ent? 11 m ig h t b e able to go rig h t to the very end. L et's see 11 A It does not say it in the document, but w e know 12 12 from separate audits o f the m ine that the m ine does not 13 Right. L et's go to page 5. 13 co n tain asbestos trem olite. 14 Five at the top; okay? 14 Q All right, and we'll get to w hether or not it 15 Now , they're running floats to try to get the 15 w as asbestos o r not at som e other point. 16 grittiness dow n; right? 16 Y ou can set that aside, sir. 17 A Yes. 17 This next one w ill be Exhibit 21. 18 Q Okay. 18 (Exhibit 21 m arked for identification) 19 A nd here under Table 3, w hat they do is they 19 There you go, sir. W e're going to flip the 20 analyze the am ount o f different non-talc elem ents in 20 page here. 21 the talc as they float it, right, as they refine it? 21 Now , sir, this one is also from the Battelle 22 A Yes. 22 M em orial Institute; correct? 23 Q Correct? 23 A Yes. 24 A Right. 24 Q It is a docum ent dated --the docum ent itself 25 Q And here you can see that Italian 1 and Italian 25 is dated M ay 23, 1958; true? Page 183 Page 185 1 2 have been floated and they tell you the am ount o f 1 A True. 2 dolom ite talc, trem olite, et cetera, in the feed, w hich 2 Q A nd then it was received by Johnson & Johnson, 3 is w hat goes in, and the float; correct? 3 or it w as m ailed to Johnson & Johnson on the sam e date, 4 A Yes. 4 M ay 28, '58; correct? 5 Q Okay. 5 A Correct. 6 A nd both Italian 1 and Italian 2 contain 6 Q A ll right. 7 trem olite in bo th the feed and the float; correct? 7 Again, you can see in that cover letter 8 A A m ongst other things, yes. 8 they're still talking about floating the Italian talc; 9 Q Sure. 9 true? 10 S o th ere's trem olite. 10 A Yes. 11 A nd w hat does "feed" m ean? 11 Q Okay. 12 A F eed is the initial ground ore. 12 Please turn, if you will, to page, it's at 13 Q Okay. 13 th e b o tto m 1347; okay? 14 N o w , th at's th e s tu ff th at's su p p o sed to b e 14 Y ou can see that there's a --they're ju st 15 p ick ed clean b y the m in ers already; rig h t? 15 situating u s to w h at w e're looking at. 16 A W ell, let's b e clear, the flo at -- sorry, the 16 They say: 17 f e e d c o n ta in s 8 8 to 9 0 p e r c e n t p la ty ta lc , a n d th e 17 "Italian No. 2 talc likewise responded 18 flo a t, 9 5 p e r c e n t p la ty ta lc , 8 -9 p e r c e n t n o n - p la ty 18 favorably to flotation. T w o m ethods w ere developed 19 talc and 4 p er cent after floating. 19 w hich yielded products that contained 96 to 97 p e r cent 20 So, essentially, w h at flo tatio n is doing is 20 platy talc and 2 to 3 per cent o f fibrous talc. 21 rem oving non-platy talc. 21 M ineralogically, these products are superior to the 22 Q B u t ev en a fte r it's flo ated , ev en a fte r it's 22 Italian No. 1 talc w hich is being used by Johnson and 23 p ick e d b y th e m in ers an d ev en after it's flo ated , it 23 Johnson for baby powder". 24 still has trace trem olite; correct? 24 R ig h t? 25 A In this particular case from 1958 -- 25 A Yes. 47 (Pages 182 - 185) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 186 Page 188 1 Q Okay. 1 necessarily - - 1 w ould necessarily use. Y ou're dealing 2 N o w , th is w as M ay 23, '58. 2 with platy talc and non-platy talc. 3 I f you can turn, sir, to the bottom , the 3 W ould I call it a contam inant? N o, it's 4 B ates num ber -- w ell, it's 2 a t the top, the B ates is 4 still talc in m any cases. In m ost cases, it's the 5 cut off. So it's page 2 at the top and it's a table. 5 non-platy talc. 6 Okay. So you can see here again, sir, 6 Q That's fine. 7 they're floating several different types. They're 7 I mean, w e can go back to the first Battelle 8 floating Oasis, Stone Creek, but also Italian No. 1 and 8 docum ent w e looked at. 9 2; right? 9 A Yeah. 10 A Yes. 10 Q T hey called it "contam inant"? 11 Q A nd the Italian talc again is shown to have 11 A T hey did, they did, but if it's non-platy talc, 12 b etw een trac e and 1 p e r cen t trem olite; true? 12 it's still talc. 13 A Yes. 13 Q Okay. That's fine. 14 Q A fter flotation; correct? 14 B ut w hat w e're seeing here is --now, this is 15 A Yeah. 15 ju s t 1958 -- th ey run 30 differen t tests, 30 to 31 16 Q N ow , sir, if you will turn to the page at the 16 different tests, and they find trem olite in trace to 17 b ottom , th e B ates label is 1364. 17 about 4 p e r cent in 30 o f them ; right? 18 A W hat page num ber is that? 18 A Yes. 19 Q It doesn't have a page num ber. It's 19 Q Okay. Y ou can set that aside, sir. 20 A ppendix --it's Table A -l and A-2. It's like an 20 T h e n e x t docu m en t is nu m b er 8. 21 appendix. 21 This w ill be Exhibit 22. 22 A O kay. G o t it. 22 (Exhibit 22 m arked for identification) 23 M S FROST: Can you repeat the Bates number, 23 H ere you go, sir. 24 please? 24 Okay. So this here is a report on a trip to 25 M R PANATIER: Yeah. 1364. 25 Italy and it's dated February 17,1959; correct? Page 187 Page 189 1 Q Okay. So you can see on that table they did 1 A Yes. 2 about a little m ore than 30 tests there where they 2 Q A nd this is a m eeting betw een Johnson & Johnson 3 floated the feed a bunch o f tim es to analyze w hat was 3 individuals and the owners o f the Val Chisone mine; 4 in the floats; correct? 4 right? 5 A Yes. 5 A That w ould appear to be the case, yes. 6 Q Okay. 6 Q Okay. 7 A nd you can count for yourself if you like, 7 The only reason I'm bringing this up is it 8 but w hat I get is about 30 tim es they m easured 8 tells u s about the grades that they w ere using it. 9 trem olite in the feed or the floats betw een -- anywhere 9 So under Synopsis it says: 10 betw een one non-detect --looks like one non-detect, 10 "It w as learned that all o f the high-grade 11 all the w a y u p to 4 p e r cent, o r 6 p e r cen t in the 11 talc com es from one m in e (w ith rare exception). It w as 12 underflow , b u t let's ju s t talk ab o u t the flow . So 12 also learned that G rade 2 is the sam e as run-of-m ine, 13 4 p e r cent. 13 a n d th at G rade 1 is n o t a sp ecifically hand selected 14 Is that about right? 14 product". 15 A Y eah, that's part o f the story. 15 N ow , w hat does "run-of-mine" mean? 16 I m ean, the w hole story, o f course, relates 16 A I don't know. I'm not a geologist. 17 to raising th e p ercentage o f p laty talc. 17 Q Okay. 18 Q Sure. 18 A So I couldn't answ er that question. 19 A That's the w hole point o f the flotation 19 Q N ow , what w e do know is that Grade 1 from the 20 process. 20 previous Battelle is w hat was being used in Johnson's 21 Q Right. 21 B aby Pow der; correct? 22 If you decrease the contam inants, you 22 A Yes. 23 increase the am ount o f talc; right? 23 Q A nd right here w hat it says is that: 24 A Yeah. 24 "... G rade 1 is not a specifically hand 25 The w ord "contam inants" isn't one you'd 25 selected product". 48 (Pages 186 - 189) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 190 Page 192 1 C o rrect? 1 Q A ll right. 2 A That's w hat it says. 2 A gain, w e have another report from B attelle; 3 Q Okay. 3 correct? 4 Do you dispute that? 4 A C orrect. 5 A That's w hat it says. 5 Q A n d th is one is d ated -- I'm ju st go in g to 6 Q A ll right. 6 w rite up here: doctors advising against -- and for 7 A I don't dispute w hat it says here. 7 fairn ess, I'll w rite "som e doctors". 8 Q Okay. 8 O kay. July 3 1,1959. 9 Go to page 2, please. W e get a little more 9 I'm sure y o u 'v e h ad a chance to look a t it. 10 history on the m ine: 10 T h ey 're testin g th e flo atatio n again; correct? 11 "The V al Chisone com pany brings in m illions 11 A C orrect, yes. 12 o f dollars p e r year, m uch o f w hich goes to the personal 12 Q Okay. 13 fortunes o f th e stockholders. T he V illa fam ily is very 13 N ow , if you go to page 6, okay, they talk 14 w ealthy and holds a unique position in the m odem w orld 14 a b o u t h o w th e y 're e v a lu a tin g th e sam p les. 15 ... it controls the G erm enasca valley in a n alm ost 15 It says: 16 feudal sense". 16 "A talc sam ple to be evaluated is dusted onto 17 Now , the Germ enasca valley is the valley 17 a glass slide w h ich h as b een spotted w ith o il hav in g 18 w here the V al C hisone m ine is located; correct? 18 refractiv e in d ex o f 1.520". 19 A Yes. 19 M y p o in t h ere is th ey 're u sin g optical 20 Q A ll right. 20 m icroscopy to evaluate this talc; correct? 21 Go to the next highlight: 21 A Yes. 22 "T he V al C hisone ow ners --" 22 Q Okay. 23 A nd it's actually V al Chisone, I think. 23 T h at's n o t -- th at's n o t X R D ; correct? 24 A Yes. 24 A N o , n o , it's op tical m icroscopy. 25 Q "The Val Chisone owners were worried lest we 25 Q Okay. Page 191 Page 193 1 had found poisonous m inerals in the talc or had 1 A nd then you can see on the next page -- 2 otherwise been displeased. W hen told w e m erely had a 2 A W ith a polarizing m icroscope. So it's 3 scheme for improving their excellent talc, they were 3 polarized light microscopy. 4 m ost anxious to cooperate. M asci --M -A -S-C-I -- 4 Q That's right. 5 explained that our problem was not a m atter o f 5 A Yeah. 6 dissatisfaction, but that about 1/3 o f the doctors are 6 Q On the top o f the next page, again, just to get 7 presently advising against the use o f baby talc, 7 our bearings: 8 inasmuch as starches and oils have a greater purity and 8 "Light is then adjusted to reflect upward 9 there is no dangerous dust to inhale". 9 through the sam ple t o ... [each] eyepiece. T he 10 So this is 1959. Johnson & Johnson is 10 eyepiece having tw o crosshairs fixed at 90 degrees to 11 rep orting th at they're tellin g the m ine ow ners: hey, 11 each o ther is focused on the field. P articles w hich 12 d octors a re recom m ending ag ain st th e use o f pow der; 12 coincide w ith the crosshairs are counted and classified 13 correct? 13 as p laty talc, fibrous talc, dolom ite, o r trem olite and 14 A That's w hat it says here, yes. 14 som etim es accessory m inerals". 15 Q A nd that there's no dangerous dust to inhale; 15 Okay? So they're using the optical 16 correct? 16 m icroscopy to evaluate the different accessory 17 A That's w hat it says here. 17 m inerals, including trem olite; true? 18 Q Okay. 18 A True. 19 Let's see. W e m ay be able to skip ahead. W e 19 Q A ll right. 20 can. You can set that aside. 20 G o to th e nex t page, please, page 8. 21 The next docum ent is -- it's num ber 9, Leah. 21 H ere, just w ith regard to the Italian No. 2, 22 This w ill be Exhibit 23. 22 it says: 23 (Exhibit 23 m arked for identification) 23 "The m ineralogy o f Italian No. 2 talc is such 24 H ere you go, sir. 24 that m ost o f the non-platy talc and trem olite are finer 25 A Thank you. 25 than the m ajor part o f the powder". 49 (Pages 190 - 193) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 194 Page 196 1 Now , are you aware from reviewing the 1 Q All right. W e're m oving right along. 2 documents that som etim es the talc itself w ould obscure 2 N um ber 10, please. This will be Exhibit 24. 3 accessory m inerals that w ere there, m aking it harder to 3 (Exhibit 24 m arked for identification) 4 see them? 4 All right, sir. This one is again from the 5 A It depends how they -- if you're looking at it 5 Battelle M em orial Institute; right? 6 under light m icroscopy, it depends how that is 6 A Yeah. 7 prepared. 7 Q This one is August 31,1959, so a month after 8 The aim m ust always be to get clear 8 the last one w e looked at; right? 9 separation, so that w hen you look at it under a light 9 A Yes. 10 m icroscope, the particles are w ell separated and not 10 Q Okay. 11 sitting on top o f each other. 11 N ow , here they're looking at som ething called 12 That is not difficult for a good 12 the ultrasonic co m m inution o f talc. 13 m icroscopist. 13 A s a scientist, w hat does "comminution" mean? 14 Q Right. 14 A It means you can break down --break down a 15 A So you shouldn't --you shouldn't be hiding 15 particle o r series o f particles by, in this case, using 16 them , basically. That's w hat I'm saying. 16 ultrasound. 17 It should be quite possible to place them on 17 Q Okay. 18 th e m icroscope slide so th at th ey're sufficiently 18 A Breakdown. 19 separated. 19 Q R ight 20 Q Okay. 20 A nd here I believe they're still looking at 21 So you need to prepare them in a w ay so you 21 Italian. W ell, let's double c h e c k ... 22 can actually see the other m inerals if they're there; 22 By the way, did they ever --did Johnson & 23 correct? 23 Johnson ever use ultrasonic comminution to try to break 24 A Yes. 24 dow n the presence o f am phiboles in the talc? 25 Q Okay. 25 A I'm not aware that that w as -- ever been Page 195 Page 197 1 Go ahead and turn to Appendix 1 and 2. 1 adopted. 2 Again, at the very back. Should be the last tw o or 2 Q So this was an evaluation o f potentially doing 3 three pages. T hey're m arked 902 and 903. 3 that? 4 A Okay. 4 A W ell, I've not seen this docum ent before. I'd 5 Q D id you find those? 5 need to read it thoroughly, which is quite a lot o f 6 A Yes. 6 pages. 7 Q Okay. 7 But, you know, I'm not aware that comm inution 8 A gain, they've tested a num ber o f floats 8 using ultrasound has ever been used within the 9 here. So they're testing floats w ith Italian; correct? 9 corporation. 10 A Yeah. 10 T his is a research paper published by 11 Q A nd here for every tim e they run a flotation, 11 B attelle for som e w o rk th ey w ere d oing for Johnson & 12 th ey're evaluating w h eth er o r n o t there's trem olite; 12 Johnson, or a presentation for Johnson & Johnson. 13 correct? 13 But whether it ever w ent any further, I do 14 A They are, yes. 14 not know , and I don't think it did. 15 Q Okay. 15 Q Okay. 16 A nd here, sir, you can see that in -- and I 16 Actually, if you go to page, it's 10 at the 17 counted th em up, an d y o u c an disagree i f y o u w ant, or 17 top, this w ill tell u s w hat w e're looking at. 18 i f y o u w a n t to tak e a m o m en t and count them --I 18 Do you see they have a photo there o f 19 counted ap p roxim ately 63 differen t results 19 plane-polarized light w here they're looking at the 20 dem onstrating betw een trace and 2 per cent trem olite in 20 talc? 21 the float. 21 A Yes. 22 Can you agree with that? 22 Q A nd then down below that they say: 23 A That's -- that's w hat it says here, yeah. 23 "For instance, the classification for removal 24 Q N ow , that's 1959; correct? 24 o f fines from the Italian No. 2 talc has been carried 25 A Yes. 25 o u t in the talc p ilo t plant, [in c re a s in g ]... the platy 50 (Pages 194 - 197) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 198 Page 200 1 content from 90 to 95 per cent"? 1 Improve it, in other words. 2 A Yeah. 2 Q Right. 3 Q All right. 3 So they w ere trying to get grit out, they're 4 So now if w e go back to page 9, it tells us 4 trying to get non-talc stu ff out o f it? 5 w hat their results w ere here; all right? 5 A Yes, or even fibrous, rolled talc. 6 A nd here they found --it says Table 5, 6 (Reporter clarification) 7 M ineral C haracter o f Series I and Series II Samples, 7 Rolled talc. 8 anywhere from trace to 5 per cent; correct? 8 Talc - if you take a plate o f talc, just for 9 A Yes. 9 the benefit o f the court, it's norm ally that shape 10 Q Tremolite; right? 10 (indicating) b ut som etim es it can roll up like a rolled 11 A That's w hat it says. 11 new spaper, a n d so it appears like th at (indicating). 12 Q Y ou can set that aside, sir. 12 So you'd rem ove the fibrous talc or rolled 13 N ext one's 11. 13 talc. 14 D o you know w hat? W e don't need to do that 14 Q Right. 15 one. W e can skip i t It's p re tty m uch a repeat. 15 So if you go to page 4, they have Sampling 16 L et's try 12. 16 and M ineralogical E valuation o f Italian R un-of-M ine 17 So this w ill be Exhibit 25. 17 T alc, and it says: 18 (Exhibit 25 m arked for identification) 18 "[The] results o f the m icroscope analysis 19 A ll right, sir. Here w e go. 19 show that the Italian run-of-m ine talc w as alm ost 20 A Thank you. 20 identical to the Italian No. 2 talc in mineral 21 Q So, again, this is another report from 21 com position. It contained about 90 per cent platy 22 B attelle. S am e folks w e 've been talk in g about; right? 22 talc, 6 per cent nonplaty talc, 2 per cent dolomite and 23 A Yeah. 23 2 per cent trem olite. The Italian No. 2 contained 24 Q A nd this is from D ecem ber 31,1959; correct? 24 about 90 per cent platy talc, 6 per cent nonplaty talc, 25 A That's the date. 25 3 per cent dolomite, and 1 per cent tremolite". Page 199 Page 201 1 Q R eceived by or sent to Johnson & Johnson 1 R ig h t? 2 January 1 5 ,1 9 6 0 ; right? 2 A That's w hat it reads, yes. 3 A Yes. 3 Q Okay. Right. 4 Q So I'll p u t th at d ate here: 1.15.60. 4 So let's go to the floats. Okay. That will 5 A n d here if you turn to ju st the first page 5 start on page 22. 6 o f the report, this is actually to B ill A shton, is it 6 Can you see there they've got - w hat they do 7 not? 7 is they tell you w hat ends up in the floats and then 8 A Yes. 8 w hat is in the underflow. 9 Q O kay. A ll right. 9 I take it the underflow is all the stu ff they 10 O n the title page, w hich I think is the next 10 don't want; right? 11 p a g e , i t is th e P r o g r e s s R e p o r t o n T h e P h y s ic a l 11 A Y eah, the underflow is the stuff that drops 12 C o n c e n tra tio n o f T a lc O re s , th e F lo a ta tio n o f Ita lia n 12 dow n to the bottom . 13 R u n -O f-M in e T alc; rig h t? 13 Q A nd so typically you see higher percentages o f 14 A T h at's th e title. 14 the stu ff they don't w ant in the underflow and low er 15 Q Okay. 15 p ercentages in the flow ; correct? 16 S o , a g ain , th e y 're stu d y in g flo ta tio n ; rig h t? 16 A Yes. 17 A T hey are, yes. 17 Q Okay. 18 Q A n d th e n , i f y o u tu r n to th e n e x t p a g e , p a g e 2 18 So, for instance, on page 22, they ran test 19 one o f th eir goals, it says, is: 19 88, and they did tw o floats and they found 1 to 2 20 "T o estab lish th a t th e b e n e fic ia tio n p ro c ess 20 per cent --or, actually, they found 3 per cent 21 d e v e lo p e d fo r Ita lia n N o . 2 ta lc is a ls o a p p lic a b le to 21 trem olite in the underflow and less than 1 per cent 22 the run-of-m ine talc". 22 trem olite in the floats; correct? 23 N ow , w hat does "beneficiation" m ean? 23 A Yes. 24 A It's from the L atin b en e, goo d , an d it m eans 24 Q So the trem olite's been reduced, but it's not 25 m ake it -- m ake it m ore good, or m ake it better. 25 been removed; correct? 51 (Pages 19 8- 201 ) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 202 Page 204 1 A Correct. 1 A Yes. 2 Q All right. 2 Q Right. 3 If you can, sir, let's go to Appendix 1 at 3 I am going to put: JJBP for Johnson's Baby 4 the back. That is 839. The Bates num ber is 839. 4 Pow der off shelf. 5 Looks like about 28 results w here they've 5 A nd they analyzed that; right? 6 analyzed for trem olite in the float; correct? 6 A They did. 7 A They have. 7 Q A nd they find trace trem olite; correct? 8 Q As w ell as some in the underflow; true? 8 A That's w hat it says here. 9 A Yes, true. 9 Q A t this point, do you know whether or not 10 Q Okay. 10 Johnson & Johnson decid ed to n o tify the public o r issue 11 And in all 28 they still have - where they 11 a w arning o r a recall regarding Johnson's B aby Pow der? 12 did an analysis, they still found trem olite; correct? 12 A I don't know the answ er to that question. 13 A Typically, yes, less than 1 per cent. 13 Q Okay. 14 Q And this would be from trace to - 14 R ight, you can set that aside, sir. 15 A L ess than 1 p er cent. W ell, there's one w ith 2 15 N um ber 14. This w ill be Exhibit 27. 16 p er cent. 16 (Exhibit 27 m arked for identification) 17 Q 2 p er cent, bu t m ost w ere less than 1 p er cent. 17 There you go, sir. 18 There's a few that are 1; correct? 18 A Thank you. 19 A Correct. 19 Q All right, sir. W e have another report from 20 Q So I'm going to put: real sm all, sm all trace to 20 B attelle. T his is A pril 12,1 9 6 0 . 21 2 p er cent. 21 This one says: 22 A ll right, sir. Y ou can set that one aside. 22 "All o f the experim ents discussed in this 23 T he n ex t docum ent is docum ent 13. T his w il 23 rep o rt w ere ... [used] u sin g Italian N o. 2 ..." 24 be Exhibit 26. 24 Okay? So w e know this is Italian. 25 (Exhibit 26 marked for identification) 25 A nd they've ju st given us their sum m ary Page 203 Page 205 1 T here you go, sir. I'll go ahead and flip 1 table; correct? 2 this over. 2 A Yes. 3 Again, this is another report from Battelle; 3 Q A nd they've perform ed - it looks to m e - it 4 right? 4 looks like about 22 different analyses o f different 5 A Yes. 5 parts o f the process; right? 6 Q D ated M arch 8,1960; correct? 6 A Are w e talking about the table on p a g e - Table 7 A Yes. 7 2? 8 Q I f y o u go to the page m arked 13 at the top? 8 Q Yeah. It looks like they're trying it w ith 9 Found it? It's a - should b e a table w hen you find 9 different reagents that they're adding - 10 it. 10 A That's correct, yes. 11 A Yeah. F ound it. 11 Q -right? 12 Q N ow , again, they're looking at the processing 12 A Yes, yes. 13 o f the talc a t differen t stages; right? 13 Q A nd so they've tested it every tim e w ith those 14 A Yes. 14 different reagents added? 15 Q A nd under flotation tailings, they've got 1 to 15 A Yes. 16 2 per cent trem olite; right? 16 Q Correct? 17 R ig h t? 17 A nd they've got 22, and in 21 they find 18 A Yes, yes, yes. 18 trem olite; correct? 19 Q B ut they also w ent and bought Johnson's Baby 19 20 P ow der o r Jo h n so n & Jo h n so n o f f the shelf, did n 't they? 20 21 A They did, yes. 21 A It's described as trace, yes. Q Yes. So it's there; correct? 22 Q A nd it was a 1958 sam ple; right? 22 A Yes. 23 A Yeah. 24 Q So w e'll call that 1958, and that's got to be 23 Q A nd I'll put "TR", as w e have. 24 Now, they also have some that say "less than 25 Johnson's B ab y P ow der at th at point; right? 25 1", so th at m u st m ean betw een ju s t less than 1 and 52 (Pages 202 - 205) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 206 Page 208 1 trace; right? 1 A N o, I thought there w as only two. 2 A Yes. W hatever that means. 2 Q Okay. 3 Q Yeah. 3 A Ham mondsville and Argonaut. 4 A But yes. 4 Q Okay. 5 Q Okay. 5 A But, you know, I stand corrected if otherwise. 6 Right, sir. Y ou can set that aside. 6 Q That's fine, and w e can --w e can look at 7 M S FRO ST: W e've been going right at an hour. 7 those o f those at some point. 8 M R PA N A TIER: Let's stop. Let's take a 8 N ow , this is June 6 ,1 9 6 1 . Again, it's from 9 break. 9 Battelle; right? 10 MS FROST: Okay. 10 A Yeah. 11 M R PA NATIER: I could use a break. 11 Q A nd this is a report on various deposits. One 12 (O ff the record at 2:30 pm) 12 is the G ouvem eur deposit in N ew Y ork. 13 (On the record at 2:44 pm) 13 Johnson & Johnson never used that one; right? 14 M R PA NATIER: All right. 14 A Correct. Johnson & Johnson never used the 15 A pretty docum ent intensive day. I apologize 15 G o u v em eu r m ine. 16 for that. 16 Q Okay. 17 TH E W ITN ESS: It's okay. 17 A nd then if you turn to page 2 there's the 18 M R PA NATIER: The next one is 15. This is 18 H am m ondsville V erm ont deposit; right? 19 E x h ib it 28. 19 A Yeah. 20 (Exhibit 28 m arked for identification) 20 Q A nd so Battelle does another flotation test on 21 Q All right. Now , before w e get into this one, 21 H am m ondsville ore; correct? 22 there's a few different deposits, or a few different 22 A That's w hat it reads here, yes. Yeah. 23 m ines in Verm ont that Johnson & Johnson ultim ately 23 Q And you can see that the results o f their 24 pulled talc from; is that correct? 24 flotation for Ham m ondsville include "altered 25 A Johnson & Johnson's cosm etic talc is pulled 25 amphiboles" that are traced; right? Page 207 Page 209 1 from two, m aybe three, mines. 1 A Yeah. 2 Q Okay. 2 Q A nd I'm ju st going to p ut --and I know there 3 A There is som e distance away from the cosmetic 3 w as also a Ham m ine m ined somewhere; right? 4 mines, certainly a --well, m aybe m ore than one, 4 A Yeah. 5 industrial talc mine. 5 Q So there w as Ham m ondsville and Ham ; correct? 6 Q Okay. 6 A Yeah. But, again, I couldn't be certain as to 7 The m ines that Johnson & Johnson pulled their 7 w hether the Ham m ine w asn't the industrial mine. 8 cosm etic talc from were Ham m ondsville; right? 8 Q Okay. 9 A Yeah. 9 I'm going to put: Ham , period, here. 10 Q Argonaut? 10 O ur understanding is that's going to be 11 A Yes. 11 H am m ondsville; okay? 12 Q A t som e point, w hat about Frost Bite? 12 A Okay. 13 A N o, I'm not aw are o f that one. 13 Q A ll right. 14 Q Rainbow? 14 A nd they found altered amphibole trace; 15 A N o , it's n o t in --it's n o t in any o f the 15 correct? 16 records I've reviewed. 16 A Yeah. 17 Ham mondsville, Argonaut, yes. 17 Q Then if you turn the page, it says 18 Q Okay. 18 R ecom m endations: 19 A B ut not those others. 19 "Excluding the m atters o f reserves and 20 They're certainly not familiar. 20 econom ics, the H am m ondsville deposit appears preferable 21 Q O kay, and w e'll get som e other docum ents that 21 m ineralogically inasm uch as the talc platelets are 22 address those. 22 flatter and more equidim ensional, and rutile and 23 A Mmm. 23 carbonate are know n to be rem ovable by beneficiation. 24 Q W e can sort that out. 24 Trem olite, w hich is present in the Gouvem eur product, 25 A ny others that I'm not thinking of? 25 is a decidedly objectionable needle-like particle". 53 (Pages 206 - 209) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 210 Page 212 1 R ig h t? 1 per cent altered amphiboles; right? 2 A That's w hat it reads, yes. 2 A Yes. 3 Q A ll right. 3 Q Right, sir. Y ou can set that aside. 4 A nd you've been talking about that. The 4 T he next docum ent is 17. T his w ill be 5 needle-like stuff is w hat you do not want; right? 5 Exhibit 30. 6 A Y ou do not w ant it if it's asbestos. 6 (Exhibit 30 m arked for identification) 7 Q Okay. 7 There you go, sir. O ctober 13,1961; 8 So i f it's trem olite and it's in the shape o f 8 correct? 9 asbestos, needle-like, you do not w ant that; right? 9 A Yes. 10 A Yes. 10 Q Again, another report from Battelle to Johnson 11 Q Okay. A ll right. 11 & Johnson; true? 12 N ext docum ent, 16. 12 A Yes. 13 This w ill be Exhibit 29. 13 Q Okay. 14 (Exhibit 29 m arked for identification) 14 If you go to the second page, and again this 15 All right, sir. So this is another report 15 is an o ld docum ent, so I'll apologize to w hat it looks 16 from the B attelle Institute to Johnson & Johnson; 16 like on the second page, but I got it from you guys, so 17 correct? 17 18 A Y es, th at's correct. 18 Anyway, page 2. It says M ineral Purity, and 19 Q T his is A u g u st 25 o f '61 and again they're 19 I'm going to read this, and i f you disagree w ith m y 20 doing m ore evaluation o f the Ham m ondsville deposit; 20 translation o f the copy, you let me know; okay? 21 co rrect? 21 "Natural ores or beneficiation products 22 A Yes. 22 suitable for baby pow der m eeting Johnson & Johnson's 23 Q W as the Ham mondsville deposit --did that one 23 standards (talc from Pinorolo, Italy) should have a 24 come online in term s o f supplying talc to Johnson & 24 com position as determ ined b y petrographic c o u n t..." 25 Johnson before or after Argonaut? 25 N ow that's a --petrographic is an optical Page 211 Page 213 1 A I believe it w as before. 1 m icroscope; correct? 2 Q Okay. 2 A It is, yes. 3 A Yeah. 3 Q "... equivalent to or better than the follow ing 4 Q A n d I th in k th ere's som e docu m en ts th at w ill 4 fl 5 h elp us settle th at, b u t I th in k y o u 're right. 5 A nd it lists: 6 So, again, th ey 're lo o k in g at flo tatio n fo r 6 "T otal t a l c ... 7 H am m ondsville talc; correct? 7 P la ty t a l c ... 8 A Yes. 8 N o n p laty t a l c ... 9 Q R ight. 9 C a rb o n a te s ... 10 If you go to the second page. 10 T rem olite [and] o th er am phiboles ... 11 N o w , h ere th ey rep o rt a: 11 O p a q u e s ... 12 "... p o o r re c o v e ry [fo r t h e ] ... c o m p o s ite 12 N onw hite m in e r a ls ... 13 s a m p le s h o w s a d i s p r o p o r tio n a te ly h i g h m ic a a n d 13 A ccesso ry m in e r a ls ... [and] 14 am phibole contam ination". 14 T otal nontalc c o n tain m en ts..." 15 N o w , w h a t d o y o u t h in k t h a t m e a n s , a p o o r 15 R ig h t? 16 reco v ery o f the sam ple? 16 A Y es, that's w hat it reads. 17 A M y g u ess is -- o b v io u sly it's a g eo lo g ist's 17 Q Okay. 18 ex p ressio n -- is th at th ere w asn 't m u ch talc there. 18 A Yes. 19 In fact, if w e look further dow n, it 19 Q So it says that the ores or the beneficiation 20 describes p laty talc at 60 to 65 p er cent. 20 products suitable for baby powder, okay, have to be 21 Q Okay. 21 equivalent to o r better than trace trem olite; right? 22 A So w h a t it m ean s is th ere w as quite a lo t o f 22 R ig h t? 23 non-talc m aterial there. 23 A Yes. 24 Q A g ain , th ey find, an d I'm goin g to p u t "V T 24 Q So w hat I w rote is: for Johnson & Johnson Baby 25 H a m m o n d sv ille" -- in th e o re, th e y fin d tra c e to 1 25 Powder, equivalent or better than trace tremolite. 54 (Pages 210 - 213) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 214 Page 216 1 R ig h t? 1 a way o f ensuring that a m inor affiliate with lim ited 2 A Yes. 2 technical expertise was alw ays on the right side o f 3 Q So at least here in 1961, w hen it cam e to the 3 safe. 4 m ineral trem olite, Johnson & Johnson was fine with 4 Q Okay. 5 trace trem olite; right? 5 So I guess the reverse o f m y question, then, 6 A Yes. 6 is: today if Johnson & Johnson w ere evaluating these 7 Q B ased on the global specification you authored 7 two sources for talc, they would be approved? 8 in 2005, this source would not be approved today for 8 A Today, and even as far back as the early 1970s, 9 use in baby powder; correct? 9 w e've had the facility in the U nited States and in 10 A No, that's not correct. 10 E urope to look a t the m inerals in detail. 11 Again, you're conflating the know ledge and 11 A nd so if you find trem olite in an amphibole 12 the situation in 2005 versus that from 44 years 12 form , a n d y o u can th en go o n an d lo o k further using 13 previously, 1961. 13 v e ry so phisticated techniques such as infrared, optical 14 W hat --m y authoring in 2005 was to a m inor 14 m icroscopy, x-ray diffraction, and particularly 15 affiliate in the P hilippines to advise that, ju s t to be 15 tran sm ission electron m icroscopy --y o u can to day 16 double sure, that w e avoided am phibole in that - the 16 determ ine i f those traces o f trem olite w ould be 17 p articu lar su p p ly th at th ey w ere looking for, sim ply 17 acceptable. 18 b ecause th ey d id n o t have th e facility to separate out 18 A nd so, to answ er your question, today, if we 19 am phibole th at w as asbestos versus non-asbestos 19 w ere evaluating those m ines, w e w ould say, based on the 20 amphibole. 20 absence o f asbestos but the presence possibly o f trace, 21 Q Y ou can set that aside. 21 m aybe parts per m illion, o f trem olite in a non-asbestos 22 A Yeah. 22 form, they w ould be acceptable. 23 Q W hat you w rote in 2005 was: 23 Q Okay. 24 "There are however certain parameters for 24 So w hen you said "global basis", you just 25 w h ich a m in im u m standard m u st b e m ain tain ed o n a globs 125 m ean t P hilippines? Page 215 Page 217 1 basis. These consist o f freedom from asbestos and 1 A I was - - 1 w as writing in m y position at the 2 amphibole m inerals". 2 tim e as Global Director using authority to tell the 3 Now, we have shown lots o f amphibole 3 Philippines to basically back o ff and don't go anywhere 4 m inerals, correct, in the '50s and '60s; right? 4 near anything w here you felt unable to be sure that you 5 A That w as the position in the 1950s and '60s, 5 w ould get no asbestos there. 6 yes. 6 The way to do that w ith the Philippines was 7 Q I understand. 7 to stretch the direction, if you like, to not only 8 If, and I understand w e're talking about your 8 exclude asbestos, but also to exclude amphibole, which 9 2005 docum ent and then w e're talking about back in the 9 m ay or m ay not be asbestos. 10 '50s and '60s --i f Johnson & Johnson w as evaluating 10 Q Okay. 11 these m ines today, the Italian a n d the V erm ont, they 11 Now , one o f the first things we did when we 12 w o u ld n o t m ee t the global sp ecification for freedom 12 started our chart here w as in 1958 --rem em ber the 13 from am phibole m inerals; correct? 13 do cu m en t --said th at the g rit contained acicular an d 14 A The global specification, that letter was 14 fibrous particles o f am phibole, okay, and there w as 15 w ritten fo r the b en efit o f an affiliate in the 15 trem olite in the feed a n d th e flo at from this. 16 Philippines. 16 Do you recall that? 17 It was not intended to direct or to set a 17 A Yes. 18 standard fo r th e U n ited S tates or E uropean countries. 18 Q Okay. 19 It was for a small affiliate w ho had very 19 A nd fibrous particles o f amphibole is 20 lim ited facilities to determine the difference between 20 asbestos; correct? 21 am phiboles w hich w ere asbestos and am phiboles w hich 21 A N ot necessarily, no. A bsolutely not. 22 were not asbestos, and it w as done basically to ensure 22 In fact, w e've done later audits from the 23 that they got now here near having any issues. 24 I m ean, the key thing about Johnson's 23 Italian m ine to show that those am phiboles in a 24 crystalline form m ay not necessarily be asbestos, just 25 products is that they m ust alw ays be safe, and that was 25 because it says fibrous. 55 (Pages 2 14-217) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 218 Page 220 1 Trem olite exists in w hat's called a prism atic 1 im portant industries. 2 form to a large extent, and that can be confused with 2 Q So w hat you're saying is this report to Johnson 3 asbestos -- asbestiform or fibrous. 3 & Johnson might have been a report o f a mine o f some o f 4 In this particular case, w e know that from 4 the other 50 m ines that they w ere never interested in; 5 the Italian m ine that the trem olite present, based on 5 right? 6 m any, m any later evaluations by expert geologists, is 6 A Yeah. I think what's im portant for the court 7 not in the asbestos form. 7 to understand that a company like Johnson & Johnson 8 Q So w e're not going to see any docum ents from 8 regularly received talc sam ples from all over the 9 Johnson & Johnson that say that there was any asbestos 9 w orld, from India, Africa, north Am erica, Europe: 10 or asbestiform - asbestiform m inerals com ing out o f 10 please evaluate this talc. 11 Italy? 11 A nd so there's nothing unusual in sending a 12 A T o m y know ledge, there w as no asbestos com ing 12 sam ple o f talc to B attelle o r any other institute. 13 o u t o f m aterial fro m Italy. 13 Q Okay. Y ou can set that aside. 14 Q Okay. 14 O f course, that's not a -- that's not African 15 A Asbestos. 15 o r - 16 Q Or Vermont? 16 A N o, that's Verm ont. 17 A O r Verm ont. 17 Q -- south A m erican. It's V erm ont? 18 Q Okay. A ll right. 18 A Like I say, 50 mines to m y knowledge in 19 This is the next docum ent. It's Exhibit 31. 19 V erm ont. 20 (E xhibit 31 m arked for identification) 20 There's no record that it actually cam e from 21 T hat is M ay 27, '63. 21 the grade 66 quality that J& J w as using five years 22 A nd, again, here there's a petrographic, 22 later. 23 w hich m eans optical m icroscope; right? 23 Q Sure. 24 A Yes. 24 The W est W indsor talc plant was the plant 25 Q Evaluation o f Verm ont talc, right, with trace 25 that w as processing talc for J&J; correct? Page 219 Page 221 1 amphibole; correct? 1 A T hat is correct, yes. 2 A W ell, it's a talc from V erm ont. 2 Q Okay. 3 It's w orth recording for the court that, to 3 (E xhibit 32 m arked for identification) 4 m y know ledge, there's at least 50 m ines in Verm ont. 4 So y o u can see this is a research report from 5 I don't know w hat w as being exam ined in 1963, 5 A pril 7 ,1 9 6 6 ; do you see that? 6 which m ine; whether it was one that J& J would later 6 A Yes. 7 take talc from . I don't know. 7 Q A n d i t 's c a lle d C h a r a c te r iz a tio n o f F lo ta tio n 8 Q W ell, it's to B ill A shton at Johnson & Johnson; 8 T ailings from the W est W indsor T alc Plant. 9 right? 9 T h a t 's th e J o h n s o n & J o h n s o n ta lc p la n t; 10 A Yeah, yeah. 10 rig h t? 11 Q Okay. 11 A Yes. 12 A nd w hat w e have seen is that they're getting 12 Q B ecause Johnson & Johnson ow ned the m ine; 13 analyses o f the H am m ondsville m ine; right? 13 rig h t? 14 A Yeah. 14 A T hey did. 15 Q W hich they did take talc from; right? 15 Q Okay. 16 A A t a later date. 16 A Yes. 17 Q That had trace am phibole in it; correct? 17 Q S o th is is A p ril 7, '66. 18 A Yes, at a later date, yeah. 18 T his is again from B attelle M em orial 19 Q Right. 19 Institute; rig h t? 20 A nd this one is a report o f Verm ont talc with 20 A It is, yes. 21 trace am phibole in it; correct? 21 Q A n d i f y o u tu rn to p a g e 11, it's talk in g ab o u t 22 A It is, b u t th ere's now here here th at it says 22 H am m ondsville talc; right? 23 it's Johnson's B aby Powder. 23 A Yes. 24 A s I've said before, there w ere at least 50 24 Q S o w e k n o w i t 's t a lk in g a b o u t t h e m in e w h e re 25 talc m ines in the State o f V erm ont. It's one o f their 25 Johnson & Johnson got their talc; right? 56 (Pages 218-221) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 222 Page 224 1 A Yeah. 1 Q Okay. 2 Q A nd it says: 2 A nd so they've got m useum num bers designating 3 "... H am m ersm ith talc ore contains a m ajor 3 each o f the samples. 4 component o f talc, some o f w hich is associated with 4 Now , are these the samples you took? 5 serp en tin e..." 5 A No. 6 Now , sir, w hat is serpentine? 6 Q Okay. 7 A It's --it is a m ineral. I'm not a geologist, 7 These are other samples from the museum? 8 b u t it's certainly a m ineral that's found in 8 A Yes. 9 association w ith talc. 9 Q D o you know w hether or not they still exist? 10 Q Serpentine is a general class that includes 10 A I do not. 11 chrysotile; correct? 11 Q A ll right. 12 A Chrysotile is a serpentine. 12 L et's look at a few things that are said 13 Q Okay. 13 here. 14 A B ut you can also get serpentines that are not 14 I f yo u go to m useum num ber 10, right, and it 15 chrysotile. 15 says this w as a 1910 to 1920 sam ple; correct? 16 Q Right. 16 A Yeah. 17 So Serpentine is the class that includes 17 Q A nd it contained noticeable amounts o f 18 chrysotile? 18 trem olite; right? 19 A A m ongst other things, yes. 19 A Yeah. 20 Q Right. 20 Q T hen i f you go to num ber 17, it says trace 21 A nd it also says: 21 trem olite; correct? 22 "... a subordinate am ount o f carbonate 22 A Yes. 23 m ineral, and rare or trace amounts o f accessory 23 Q A nd that was one that w as m ade from 1920 to 24 m inerals, including altered am phibole, chloride, 24 around 1930; right? 25 pyrite, and others. The contam inants m ay be present in 25 A Correct. Page 223 Page 225 1 all size fra c tio n s ,... som ew hat m ore abundant in the 1 Q Y ou can set that aside, sir. 2 fines. M any o f the contaminants are angular or 2 This w ill be Exhibit 34. 3 prism atic and undesirable com ponents o f baby talc". 3 (Exhibit 34 m arked for identification) 4 Did I read that right? 4 T here you go, sir. 5 A You read that. 5 A Thank you. 6 Q So then again they also m ention altered 6 Q Now , this is from M r Russell, w ho we just saw; 7 amphibole. 7 right? 8 Y ou can set that aside, sir. 8 A Yeah. 9 This w ill be Exhibit 33. 9 Q This is dated January 30,1967. 10 (Exhibit 33 m arked for identification) 10 This is an evaluation o f som ebody else's 11 T here you go, sir. 11 pow der; right? 12 A Thank you. 12 A Yes, that w ould appear to be the case. 13 Q N ow , sir, this is a docum ent dated July 13, 13 Q It is called Baby-M ate. 14 1966; correct? 14 A Okay. 15 A Yes. 15 Q Right? 16 Q A nd this one is entitled M icroscopic 16 D o you see that at the top? 17 E x am in atio n M useum B ab y P o w d er S am ples b y W illiam 17 A Yeah, I see that now, yes. 18 A shton; rig h t? 18 Q Baby-M ate? 19 A It's to M r Ashton. It's authored by R S 19 Okay. Baby-M ate analysis. 20 Russell. 20 W hen they analyzed it, it says Purity: 21 Q Okay. 21 "The talc base used in this product is better 22 A W ho's a m icroscopist. 22 than 97 per cent pure talc. The rem ainder is 23 Q Y ou're right. This is to Bill A shton from M r 23 associated carbonate and less than 1/2% o f the fibrous 24 Russell; right? 24 trem olite". 25 A Yes, yes. 25 Do you see that? 57 (Pages 222 - 225) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 226 Page 228 1 A Yeah. i "The structure o f the particles, however, and 2 Q Fibrous trem olite. 2 the presence o f associated carbonates and trem olite 3 Then right after that it says: 3 lead m e to believe this is an Italian talc". 4 "This about compares w ith Italian #1 talc and 4 A Okay. 5 is slightly less pure, chem ically, than Emtal Extra 5 Q H is conclusion is it's an Italian talc; 6 talc". 6 correct? 7 So they says this compares w ith the Italian 7 A N o. N o, it is not correct. H e does not use 8 N o. 1; right? 8 the w ord "conclusion" anywhere. 9 A W ell, if w e're using the param eters o f 9 H e's got tw o sentence, one follow ing the 10 lubricity, yes. 10 other. 11 Q W ell, it doesn't say that, though. 11 H e's saying: 12 A No, sorry. I was reading ahead o f you then. 12 "The talc is not from a naturally occurring 13 Yeah, okay. 13 dom estic talc. It could b e ... ben eficiated (floated) 14 Q A nd Italian No. 1 is w hat you guys w ere using 14 dom estic talc, as is available from N orth C arolina or 15 in Jo hnson's B aby P ow der? 15 A labam a". 16 A Yes. 16 N ext sentence, no evidence o f a conclusion: 17 Q Right. 17 "The structure o f the particles, however, and 18 A nd then it says down at the bottom: 18 th e presence o f associated carbonates a n d trem olite 19 "The structure o f the particles, however, and 19 lead m e to believe this is an Italian talc". 20 the presence o f the associated carbonates and trem olite 20 H e's basically offering tw o hypotheses. 21 lead m e to believe this is an Italian talc". 21 Quite frankly, looking at it under a 22 R ig h t? 22 m icroscope, he basically could never be sure, b u t it's 23 A It's a hypothesis, because i f you read the full 23 a hypothesis. 24 sentence, it says Talc Source: 24 There's no conclusion there. H e's offering 25 "T he talc is n o t f r o m ... natu rally occurring 25 two sentences. Page 227 Page 229 1 dom estic talc. It could be beneficiated (floated) 1 It could be Italian. It could be from North 2 dom estic talc, as is available from N orth Carolina or 2 Carolina. 3 Alabama". 3 Q H e uses the w ord "however"; correct? 4 Q Right. 4 A He uses the word "however". 5 A A nd then it goes on to say it could: 5 Q He says: 6 "The structure o f the particles, however, and 6 "The structure o f the particles, however, and 7 the presence o f associated carbonates and trem olite 7 the presence o f associated carbonates and tremolite 8 lead m e to believe this is an Italian talc". 8 lead m e to believe this is an Italian talc". 9 Q Right. 9 Is that w hat he says verbatim? 10 A So, essentially, although you've underlined the 10 A It's w hat he says verbatim , b ut let's go back 11 second sentence, y o u could equally hav e un d erlin ed the 11 to th at p rev io u s sentence in the sam e paragraph. H e's 12 first sentence w here he said it co uld be fro m N o rth 12 also able to look at the structure o f the particles and 13 C arolina o r A labam a. 13 com e w ith an opinion th at it could be floated dom estic 14 Basically, M r Russell, looking at it under 14 talc from N orth Carolina or Alabam a. 15 h is m icroscope, can't really be sure as to w here it's 15 I f there was a separate heading Conclusion, 16 com e from , and he's m aking that clear. 16 "I believe this is definitely from Italian talc", 17 H e's got tw o sentences: could be from N orth 17 that's a different issue. 18 C arolina o r A labam a; it c o u ld be Italian talc. 18 B ut the w ay that's presented indicates to 19 Q He says: 19 anyone w ho reads that objectively that he has not m ade 20 "It co uld b e ... ben eficiated [or] (floated) 20 a conclusion. 21 dom estic t a l c ... available from N o rth C aroline or 21 H e's offered tw o sentences, one follow ing the 22 Alabama"? 22 other. 23 A Yeah. 23 Q D oes he said that: I am led to believe this is 24 Q A nd he says -- but he has a conclusion --he 24 from N orth Caroline or Alabam a? 25 says: 25 Does he say that? Just answ er that question. 58 (Pages 226 - 229) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 230 Page 232 1 A No. H e says it could be. 1 Q Okay. 2 Q Could be. 2 Go ahead and turn to the very last page. 3 A Yeah, from Carolina or Alabama. 3 It's T able II. 4 Q A nd then after the next sentence he says: 4 A nd can you see, sir, they're evaluating, 5 "... how ever, the presence o f the associated 5 through a m icroscopic m ineralogical assay, M etropolitan 6 carbonates and trem olite lead me to believe this is an 6 1, V erm o n t T alc - tw o d ifferent - tw o different 7 Italian talc". 7 assays there - and Italian talc; do you see that? 8 R ig h t? 8 A Yes. 9 A H e uses the w ord "believe", and he's not -- 9 Q A nd what they find is that two assays o f 10 w hen w e use the w ord "believe", w e have an opinion. A 10 V erm ont talc have trace trem olite; right? 11 b e lie f m eans a n opinion. 11 A Yeah. 12 So he's expressing an opinion: it could be 12 Q A nd what does "assay" mean? 13 Italian talc. 13 A It depends on the methodology. 14 Equally, in the same prelim inary sentence, 14 '67, this w as probably optical m icroscopy to 15 h e's saying it co uld b e from N o rth C arolina. 15 m easure num erically w hether you could see it under a 16 Q Okay. This w ill be Exhibit 35. 16 m icroscope. 17 (Exhibit 35 m arked for identification) 17 Q Okay. 18 A Thank you. 18 So an assay is like a test o f a sample? 19 Q Sure. 19 A Yes. 20 T his is N ovem ber 1, '67. So later in the 20 Q Okay. 21 sam e year. 21 A T hey use the m icroscope to look at the 22 Y ou see this is a Johnson & Johnson memo; 22 particles under a microscope. 23 correct? 23 Q A nd Italian had I or 2 per cent tremolite; 24 A Yeah. 24 right? 25 Q Okay. 25 A Yes. Page 231 1 A nd this is subject: M etropolitan Talc, L ot G 1 2 716, Prelim inary Evaluation. 2 3 N ow , w ho's M etropolitan Talc? 3 4 A It's a com petitive m ining com pany. That's - 4 5 that's all I know. 5 6 I don't know the com pany intim ately. I've 6 7 certainly heard o f it. 7 8 Q Okay. 8 9 A I believe they m arket talc, or m arketed talc 9 10 back in the '60s. 10 11 Q T his w ould be one o f those things w here they're 11 12 actually evaluating som ebody else's talc, a n d th ey say 12 13 so? 13 14 A Show m e w here it says so. 14 15 T h ey 're -- w h a t th ey 're evaluating is -- w as 15 16 a com m on process, certainly over m any, m any years, w as 16 17 to Ipok a t o th er talc sources from o th er m ines, 17 18 o ther - basically, o th er p eo p le w h o w o u ld su p p ly talc. 18 19 T h ey w o u ld a sk the com pany to ev aluate th eir talc. 19 20 Q Right, so w hat I ju st said is true. They're 20 21 evaluating som ebody else's talc? 21 22 A They're evaluating a source o f talc, yes. 22 23 Q Right. T hat they did not pull out o f the 23 24 ground. Som eone else did? 24 25 A Yes. 25 Page 233 Q Okay. A n d , in fact, b atch 9 9 4 th at's u p a t th e top, th at's V erm ont. A M m m hmm . Q If you look the asterisk, it actually says that p roduced A u g u st 2 1 ,1 9 6 7 , at W est W indsor; right? A T h at's w h a t it says, yes. Q T h at's a fin ish ed b atch ; correct? A Yes. Q Okay. Y o u can set th at aside, sir. T h at fin ish ed b atch h ad trem olite in it; rig h t? A It h a d trem o lite, b u t w e w o u ld k n o w th a t it's no t asbestos trem olite. Q N ow , Johnson & Johnson routinely used the C olorado S chool o f M ines as a consultant; correct? A Y es. O ne o f several. Q R ight. R ight. T h is is E x h ib it 36. I'll p u t a ru b b er b an d o n it fo r you. It's a th ick docum ent. (E xhibit 36 m arked for identification) Sir, y o u can see h ere this is from D ecem b er 4 o f 1970; correct? A Yes. 59 (Pages 230 - 233) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 234 Page 236 1 Q It is entitled Geology and Ore Reserves, 1 So this one is in the order I got it in, so 2 H am m ondsville M ine for W indsor M inerals in Verm ont; 2 it's a little b it --I left it in the order I received 3 right? 3 it from Johnson & Johnson. 4 A Yes, that's the title. 4 B ut i f you turn to --I don't know if I 5 Q A nd it says at the bottom : 5 flagged that one, but basically at the Bates stam p 6075 6 "The attached report completes our work on 6 down at the bottom? 7 the nature and m agnitude o f our ore body in Verm ont 7 N o, actually, start on 6076. That's going to 8 from which w e m anufacture Baby Pow der talc". 8 tell us w hat w e're looking at. 9 R ig h t? 9 A ll right. All right. W e're there. 10 A That's w hat it says, yes. 10 So that is a m em o from M ay 10,1971; right? 11 Q Okay. 11 A Yes. 12 So if you go to the page at the bottom - 12 Q A nd that is a m em o from the Colorado School o f 13 th ese p ages are n o t num bered, b u t th ey are B ates 13 M ines, w h o w as a periodic consultant o f yours; right? 14 stamped, so at the bottom 15152. 14 A Correct. 15 A Have that, yes. 15 Q So that's 5.10.71. 16 Q Okay? 16 Here it says: 17 A Y eah, w e have that. 17 "[The] following are the results o f the point 18 Q 15152. 18 count analysis o n ... 3 44L b ab y p o w d e r ..." 19 I don't think that's it. Is that it? 19 R ig h t? 20 A 5152? 20 A Yeah. 21 Q Oh, at the very bottom . 21 Q A nd can you see it says -- by the way, w hen you 22 A Okay. 22 do a particle count, that's optical m icroscopy; right? 23 Q Sorry, there's tw o B ates stam ps on there. 23 A Yes. That would be, yes. 24 A Tw o Bates stamps, yeah. 24 Q Okay. 25 Q Okay. 25 A Yes. Page 235 Page 237 1 It says: 1 Q A nd it says: 2 "The follow ing table --this is ju st to 2 "Free nontalc n e e d le s..." 3 o rien t us -- ... sum m arizes th e resu lts o f ... 3 R ig h t? 4 petrographic and x-ray exam inations o f the rocks 4 A Yes. 5 subm itted for thin-section analysis". 5 Q A nd it says the percentage is .6; correct? 6 M eaning they did both optical and x-ray 6 A Yes. 7 diffraction on the rocks that they pulled out; correct? 7 Q Okay. 8 A They did, yes. 8 So in this actual sam ple o f baby powder 9 Q A nd if you turn to the very next page? 9 th ere's approxim ately .6 p e r cent o f non-talc needles; 10 M S FRAZIER: It looks like they got 10 right? 11 d isco n n ected again. 11 A Y es, I'm fam iliar w ith this report, yeah. 12 Is anybody on the line? N o, we're 12 Q Okay. So you've seen this one before; right? 13 disconnected again. 13 A Yeah. 14 M R P A N A T IE R : Right. Let's take a quick 14 Q Now, go to the page right before that, the one 15 break. 15 th at is the internal m em o from four days later. 16 (O ff the record at 3:16 pm) 16 So it should be the one that is m arked at the 17 (On the record at 3:18 pm) 17 bottom 6075? 18 M S F R O S T : D o yo u w an t to note for the record 18 A Yeah. 19 th at w e p assed o n E x h ib it 36, b ecause y o u m ade th at 19 Q Okay. 20 comment o ff the record? 20 A nd this is from A shton to Hildick-Smith; 21 M R P A N A T IE R : Y eah. I'm ju st going to pass 21 right? 22 on 36, but it's still part o f the record. 22 A Yeah. 23 AH right. This will be Exhibit 37. 23 Q 5.14.71. 24 (Exhibit 37 m arked for identification) 24 He says: 25 Q O kay, sir. 25 "The attached letter shows the particle 60 (Pages 234 - 237) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 238 Page 240 1 size-shape[s] consists o f a production batch o f our 1 Johnson Talc? 2 product produced in December, 1970". 2 A Yeah. 3 So w e know this is Johnson's Baby Powder; 3 Q There's a highlighted portion there. 4 correct? 4 W hat it says is: 5 A Yes. 5 "The needle-like structure o f asbestos and 6 Q Okay. 6 asbestiform minerals is the quality that gives it the 7 "It is an aliquot o f that which I gave to Dr 7 ability to imbed in pulmonary tissue and potentially 8 A Langer at M t Sinai Hospital. A s you know I had this 8 lead to mesothelioma". 9 done to see w hat type o f data w e can expect from 9 D id I read that right? 10 in d ependent experts, as w e h a d agreed". 10 A You did. 11 If w e skip dow n to the next highlight: 11 Q Okay. 12 "W e co nsider the free n on-talc needles b u t a 12 Now, let's go to --I think it is the next 13 trace, b o th on a count and area basis. T hose particles 13 flag. It should be flagged for you, and there should 14 are trem olite". 14 be a highlight there. 15 R ig h t? 15 W hat does that highlight say? 16 A T hat's w h a t it says, although I have seen a 16 A Is that the blue flag? The one that starts -- 17 later report w h ich gave a to tally differen t o pinion as 17 Q Should be on page 9. 18 to w h at th at is. 18 A Okay. 19 Q Yeah. W e're going to talk about that one. 19 "C ornstarch ... dusting pow ders have been in 20 A Okay. 20 use since the early 1900s". 21 Q A t least here in M ay, they're saying that the 21 Q That doesn't have m uch to do w ith w hat we're 22 non-talc needles are trem olite needles; correct? 22 talking about now, but it was in the report, so I 23 A T hat w as an opinion at that point in time, 23 figured I'd ask you about it. 24 although it was later not validated. 24 A Yeah, yeah. 25 Q Okay. W e'll discuss that. 25 Q So cornstarch has been used since the early Page 239 Page 241 1 Now , everything, every m em o signed by anybody 1 1900s in dusting powders; right? 2 is an opinion, isn't it? 2 A Yes. 3 A It is, b ut it's a stronger op in io n i f it's 3 Q Okay. 4 backed up by extensive technical testing and 4 It was always something that Johnson & 5 evaluation. 5 Johnson if it cared to could have placed in its baby 6 Looking at som ething under a m icroscope alone 6 pow der to the exclusion o f talc; correct? 7 is not as strong as doing four or five different 7 A In theory. You know, I don't know whether 8 analytical tests th at w e've talk ed about: x -ray 8 you'd exclude talc. 9 diffraction; scanning electron m icroscopy; transm ission 9 The com pany's position has always been that 10 m icroscopy. 10 talc w as and is safe. N o reason to exclude it. 11 Q Mmm, mmm. 11 It's an alternative. 12 A Y ou develop a higher level o f surety in your 12 Q I f Johnson & Johnson w anted to use a produc 13 opinion once y o u do m ore testing. 13 instead o f talc, it could have done so at any point? 14 Q Sure. 14 A It could have done, yes. 15 T his is Exhibit 38, sir. 15 Q Okay. 16 (Exhibit 38 m arked for identification) 16 A Yes. 17 This is a report you authored; correct? 17 Q The first time that it made cornstarch widely 18 A Yeah. 18 available w as w hen? 19 Q A nd if you look at the very last page, you 19 A I believe the early 1970s. I'm n o t sure o f the 20 authored it July 17,2015? 20 exact date, but approxim ately early 1970s. 21 A Yeah. 21 Q So if it's early 1970s, you're talking about 22 Q Okay. 22 roughly 70 years after it was first being used in 23 N ow , let's look at the second page, talking 23 dusting powders. 24 about opinions; okay? 24 Ifs 1980, you're talking about 80 years; 25 Y ou see how it says Testing o f Johnson & 25 rig h t? 61 (Pages 238 - 241) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 242 Page 244 1 A Yes. 1 traces o f asbestos in our talc". 2 Q Okay. 2 So that is - that looks like June 19 o f 3 Let's go back to page 2, w here you say it's: 3 about 71 or 7 2 ; right? 4 "The needle-like structure o f asbestos and 4 D r Langer's saying he believes there is 5 asbestiform minerals [that] is the quality that gives 5 asbestos in your talc; right? 6 it the ability to imbed in pulmonary tissue and 6 A He did say that at the time, yes, and o f course 7 potentially lead to mesothelioma". 7 later he w as proven totally incorrect. 8 A Yeah. 8 Q W ell, I didn't ask you w hether you believed he 9 Q Is that still your opinion today, one year, or 9 w as proven incorrect. I asked you what his opinion 10 two years later? 10 was. 11 A Yeah. 11 A His - 12 Q Okay. 12 Q A nd his opinion was that there w as chrysotile 13 Y ou can set that aside. 13 in y o u r pow der; right? 14 A Yeah. 14 A Y eah, but, essentially, because he w as not able 15 So long as the asbestiform minerals are 15 to distinguish chrysotile from chlorite, and he w as 16 asbestos. That's important. 16 confusing particles w ith sodium sesqui citrate, w hich 17 Q W ell, if it's asbestiform , it is asbestos. W e 17 is added to help the talc flow and not clog the holes 18 talked about that? 18 in the bottle. 19 A Yes. 19 Q Sure. A ll right. Y ou can set that aside. 20 Q Right? 20 M ount Sinai. T hey have a pretty good 21 A Yeah. 21 reputation as a m edical and research facility, don't 22 Q This will be 39. 22 they? 23 (Exhibit 39 m arked for identification) 23 A They had, but som e o f the people there were 24 T his is a m em o. L ooks like it's June 19. 24 rated by other scientists as having a low capability. 2 5 There's no year on it. I think w e're in the early 25 Q B y Johnson & Johnson scientists; right? Page 243 Page 245 1 7 0 s. W e're 71 o r 7 2 probably. B ut if you believe 1 A N ot necessarily. 2 I'm w rong on that, you can let m e know. 2 Q Okay. 3 B ut this is a m em o about D r Langer at the 3 W ho rated them as having low capability? 4 M ount Sinai School o f M edicine; correct? 4 A W ell, give me a nam e o f the scientists and 5 A Yes. 5 I can probably tell you. 6 Q Okay. 6 Q No. You said they w ere rated as having -- 7 There's a report o f a phone call dow n below. 7 A Okay. 8 It said: 8 Q - - a low cap a b ility -- 9 "2.30 pm D r Nashed called". 9 A Okay. Okay. 10 A m I saying that right? Nashed? 10 Q - - by somebody. So you tell me who? 11 A I believe so. 11 A Okay. 12 Q Okay. 12 D r Lew in, w ho's based at M ount Sinai, w as 13 A I've never m et the guy, b ut it sounds right to 13 severely criticised b y m an y o f h is peers for h is w o rk 14 me. 14 in the early 7 0 s. 15 Q "I gave message and he questioned: W ould it be 15 Q N o, I'm asking you w ho criticised M ount Sinai? 16 to our interest to have a com parison o f sodium 16 A There w as a lot o f criticism , not just from 17 sesquicitrate an d chrysotile? W o u ld it get D r L anger 17 Johnson & Johnson, b u t other scientists w ho had 18 aw ay fro m in sisting th at he b elieves w e m ay have trace 18 evaluated w o rk done b y D r L ew in. Scientists from 19 am ounts o f asbestos in our talc? H e said call Dr 19 M cCrone, from Princeton U niversity G eology Departmeni 20 Rolle." 20 from Battelle --sorry, from Colorado School o f Mines. 21 Going down: 21 D r Pooley. 22 "C alled D r Rolle. H e said he didn't see any 22 They cam e to conclusions that were totally 23 h arm in sending ... to L anger. B u t he feels th at D r 23 different from D r Lewin. 24 Langer is not going to retract his statem ent and as a 24 Q Okay. 25 scientist will stick by his feeling that there m ay be 25 N ow , D r Lew in never w as at M ount Sinai. Do 62 (Pages 242 - 245) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 246 Page 248 1 you understand that? He was at NYU. 1 by you; correct? 2 A Oh, sorry. I thought we were talking about 2 M S FRO ST: A nd I'm going to object. 3 that. Okay. 3 I know we agreed on objections - 4 Q Okay. 4 M R P A N A T IE R : T hat's fine. 5 So w hich one has the bad reputation, 5 M S FRO ST: - b ut I feel w e're getting close 6 according to all these scientists? 6 to the harassing the witness. 7 A N o, in that case, I'll retract that. 7 M R PA N A TIER: I'm talking fast. I'll slow 8 Q Okay. 8 down. 9 A I'll retract --I thought you were talking 9 TH E W ITNESS: Okay. N o, let's go back. 10 ab o u t D r -- D r L ew in's w ork. 10 A little while ago, w e talked about what 11 Q W e were talking about Langer right now. 11 w o u ld com prom ise a consultant, a n d I said th at i f 12 A Oh, okay. 12 som eone w as being paid, it doesn't necessarily 13 Q Okay? 13 com prom ise them , so lo n g as that's w here it stops. 14 A Yeah. 14 I f you get a result from a consultant that 15 Q So L anger -- so w hen you said he'd been proven 15 y o u do n 't like, y o u a ccep t that. 16 w rong, w ere y o u talk in g ab o u t L ew in o r L anger? 16 B ut there's never in any o f these cases w ould 17 A I w as talking about Langer. I'm sorry. 17 w e actually say som eone from J& J w ent in, spoke to the 18 Q Y ou were talking about Langer? 18 g uy at Princeton U niversity, or spoke to M cC rone 19 A I m eant Langer, yes. 19 A ssociates, or spoke to D r Pooley, P ro f Pooley, and 20 Q Okay, w ho you were talking about? 20 said, "W e w ant you to give a different result". 21 A Yes. 21 That's never occurred. 22 Q Okay. 22 The m ere fact that you hire someone for a 23 A I f I said Lewin, that is a misstatement. 23 particular job, you pay them for the w ork doesn't m ean 24 Q Now , w hen you said that M ount Sinai was not 24 that they are com prom ised in their results. 25 regarded at som e point as a good scientific 25 Page 247 Page 249 1 institution, you said scientists had said that? 1 BY M R PANATIER: 2 A Yes. 2 Q So going in and telling them to change the 3 Q A nd here's w ho you've run off: M cCrone; right? 3 results w ouldn't m ean they w ere com prom ised? 4 A Yeah. 4 A It depends on the phraseology. 5 Q They were a consultant o f yours? 5 Y ou can't say to som eone, "Go and change the 6 A They were a consultant to the industry, 6 results". 7 including Johnson & Johnson, yes. 7 Y ou m ay well ask, "Can you confirm that?" 8 Q A t the tim e that they were critical o f M ount 8 B ut that's a difference. 9 Sinai; correct? 9 Q Mmm. 10 A They were critical o f the results that D r 10 A I'm looking for any --if you've got any 11 L an g er h a d produced. 11 evidence o f text, letters, "G o and change the results", 12 Q I'm asking w hether or not they were a 12 separate issue. 13 co n su ltan t to y o u -- 13 Q Yeah. 14 A They were. 14 A I'm happy to see that and com m ent on it. 15 Q --at the tim e that they were critical o f Dr 15 Q Yeah. 16 Langer? 16 So m y question, though, going back, was: at 17 A They were critical o f his results and they were 17 the tim e that the doctor at Princeton w as critical -- 18 consulting to Jo h n so n & Jo hnson, yes. 18 D r B row n w as critical o f D r L anger, he w as a paid 19 Q The doctor at Princeton, do you rem em ber his 19 consultant to Johnson & Johnson; correct? 20 name? 20 A Correct. 21 A Gordon Brown. 21 Q A t the tim e D r Pooley was critical o f D r 22 Q Gordon Brown was also a consultant to Johnson & 22 Langer, he was a paid consultant to Johnson & Johnson; 23 Johnson w hen he w as critical o f Langer; correct? 23 correct? 24 A He was an independent consultant, yes. 24 A Correct. 25 Q W ell, he's not independent if he w as being paid 25 Q A nd sam e with Colorado School o f Mines; 63 (Pages 246 - 249) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 250 Page 252 1 correct? 1 Q Proven by who? 2 A Correct. 2 A Proven by expert scientists, the Colorado 3 Q All right. 3 School o f M ines. 4 So let's look a t this. T his is E x h ib it 40. 4 Q Yeah, your consultant? 5 (Exhibit 40 m arked for identification) 5 A They are, but these are not consultants to whom 6 This is a m eeting --report o f a m eeting with 6 J& J could offer any w ay o f saying, "Change your mind". 7 D r Langer that Johnson & Johnson had; correct? 7 This is independent --these are independent 8 A Yes. 8 people. 9 Q Right. 9 The fact that you pay someone to do a job, 10 Have you seen this before? 10 w hether it's B attelle, M cC rone or C olorado School o f 11 A I believe I have, yes. 11 M ines, yo u d o n 't g et a -- y o u d o n 't get a result th at 12 Q Okay. 12 says, "W e w ant it to fit w hat w e think it should be". 13 A Yes. 13 Y ou get a result based on the science, and 14 Q So w hat happens here is this representative 14 th at's w h a t cam e o u t o f this. 15 from Jo h n so n & Jo h n so n m eets w ith D r L an g er an d they 15 Q That's the ideal; right? 16 look at som e tissue from the T enovus study that w as 16 A That is the ideal, and that is the reality in 17 being done; right? 17 this case, yes. 18 A Yeah. 18 Q Okay. 19 Q N ow , the T enovus study w as they w ere looking at 19 Then they do light and electron m icroscopy o f 20 ovarian tissue and they were finding talc in it; right? 20 Johnson's B aby Pow der; correct? 21 A T hey claim ed to have found talc in it, yes. 21 A Correct, yes. 22 Q O f course, Johnson & Johnson claim s they were 22 Q Right. 23 wrong; right? 23 I f y o u lo o k on the - - 1 guess it's th ird to 24 A It w as never confirm ed whether it was talc or 24 last page, b u t th ere's a highlight there. 25 som ething else, but -- 25 It says: Page 251 Page 253 1 Q Okay. 1 "Using electron m icroscopy D r Langer has 2 A - that's aside. 2 dem onstrated to m e the presence o f som e very fine 3 Q Right. N ext --next page. 3 fibers at m oderately high magnification w hich he 4 N ow , they're looking at talc and it says: 4 identifies as chrysotile asbestos by the typical 5 "Viewing the grids prepared on Friday at 5 tubular appearance o f the fiber". 6 about 11,000X ..." 6 C o rrect? 7 T hat m eans 11,000 tim es m agnification; right? 7 A Yes. 8 A It does. 8 Q That's w hat w as reported; true? 9 Q "... in the electron m icroscope, w e w ere able 9 A That's w hat w as reported, yeah. 10 to find --w e w ere un ab le to fin d any particles w hich 10 Q Okay. 11 could ob v io u sly b e identified as talc, how ever, fibrous 11 A Yeah. 12 structures w ere ob served u n d e r h ig h er m agnification ... 12 Q Then go to the next page: 13 these fibers w ere id en tified b y L an g er as chrysotile". 13 "In addition to the observation o f the 14 A nd by the w ay, I'm sorry, that's still 14 tubular structures as an indication o f chrysotile D r 15 looking a t th e T enovus tissue, ju s t fo r clarification. 15 L anger also pointed o ut the typical therm al behavior o f 16 D ow n at the end he says: 16 the fiber w hich is initiated by the heat generated at 17 "Evidence such as this was observed in at 17 the sam ple b y the electron beam ". 18 least on e o th er field in th e one sam ple w hich w as 18 A nd then he goes on to talk about how it gets 19 exam ined". 19 deform ed b y the beam ; okay? 20 So D r Langer is saying he sees chrysotile in 20 A Yeah. 21 the ovarian tissue; correct? 21 Q N ear the end: 22 A T h at's w h at h e says. 22 "Although w e did not perform selected area 23 Q Right. 23 electron diffraction on Friday, D r Langer has observed 24 A A lthough it's later proven that that w as not 24 these patterns from chrysotile fibers found in 25 correct. H e was using the w rong m ethodology. 25 JO H N SO N 'S Baby Powder". 64 (Pages 250 - 253) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 254 Page 256 1 D id I read that right? 1 with recognized standards, using that test methodology. 2 A You did. 2 A nd the problem w ith m any o f those methods, 3 Q A nd so Sum m ary, num ber 2: 3 with scanning - with x-ray diffraction, is that many 4 "Chrysotile is identified in the electron 4 m inerals have a very sim ilar pattern o f diffraction. 5 m icroscope by its characteristic tubular appearance (at 5 So it is --it has limitations. 6 h ig h m agn ificatio n )1'. 6 A ll test m ethods have lim itations, and that's 7 A nd num ber 4: 7 one with that particular test method. 8 "Electron m icroscopy at high m agnification 8 Q So no one w ould do that today? 9 show s a fe w fibers to b e presen t in JO H N S O N 'S ... B aby 9 A Y ou w ould - you would certainly do it today, 10 Pow der w hich can be identified w ith chrysotile asbestos 10 because it's part o f the initial process to rem ove any 11 according to D r L anger". 11 d oubt as to w h eth er o r n ot there is --th at m aterial is 12 R ig h t? 12 there, yeah. 13 A According to D r Langer. 13 Q So it's part o f the protocol today. 14 Q N ow , Johnson & Johnson disagree w ith D r Langer; 14 D o you agree that today scanning electron - 15 right? 15 selected area electron diffraction is p a rt o f the state 16 A Yes. 16 o f the art o f identifying m inerals? 17 Q Okay. 17 A It's one o f the three tests that you w ould do. 18 I know you want to m ake that clear. So they 18 Q A nd Langer w as doing it in '71; right? 19 d isag reed w ith D r L anger? 19 A Yes. 20 A Yeah. 20 Q Okay. 21 Q Okay. 21 This memo --this is Exhibit 41. Should be 22 A Sim ply electron diffraction is not a com petent 22 41. 23 m ethod to exam ine chrysotile. 23 (Exhibit 41 m arked for identification) 24 Q Okay. 24 It's from July 2 9 ,1 9 7 1 ; correct? 25 So that's 7.9.71 : L anger says he found 25 A Yes. Page 255 Page 257 1 chrysotile; right? 1 Q A ll right. 2 A That's w hat he said, yes. 2 A nd it's from D r N ashed to M r Foster and the 3 Q A nd, I'm sorry, you ju st said som ething else. 3 subject is Talc/Asbestos; right? 4 Y ou said som ething about electron diffraction 4 A Yes. 5 is what? 5 Q Okay. 6 A It's not a com petent m ethod to identify 6 A nd it says here: 7 chrysotile. 7 "The talc used in JO H N SO N 'S Baby Pow der is 8 Q Selected area electron diffraction? 8 obtained from a selected m ine in Vermont w here the ore 9 A Correct. 9 consists m ainly o f platy talc with only trace amounts 10 Q Says who? 10 o f fibrous m inerals (trem olite/actinolite)". 11 A Essentially, the CTFA m ethod picked that up at 11 R ig h t? 12 th e sam e tim e, the early 1970s, an d as a result o f the 12 A That's w hat it says. 13 inability o f electron d iffraction to differentiate 13 Q Okay. 14 betw een chlorite and chrysotile, there w as a 14 A Yeah. 15 req uirem ent to lo o k a t additional test m ethods. 15 Q So this is July 29 o f 1971, and here Johnson & 16 Hence, as a m inim um , the polarized light 16 Johnson is saying that the baby pow der ore has trace 17 m icro sco p y a n d m ethods fo llow ed b y Johnson & Johnson, 17 fibrous trem olite actinolite; right? 18 including tran sm issio n electron m icroscopy, h av e a 18 A W ell, this particular author, w ho is not a 19 better ability to separate out chrysotile from 19 m icroscopist or an expert, in brackets used the w ords 20 chlorite. 20 "(tremolite/actinolite)". 21 Q Sir, w hat does "selected area electron 21 B ut trace fibrous m inerals w ould also include 22 diffraction" do? W hat does it tell you? 22 w hat is called fibrous talc. T hat is talc that is 23 A Electron diffraction pattern o f any m ineral is 23 shards that are literally split off, or talc that is 24 a --it looks a bit like lots o f dots scattered on a 24 rolled, as we described like a rolled newspaper. 25 screen, and you need to be able to compare that pattern 25 That w ould come under the same heading as 65 (Pages 254 - 257) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 258 Page 260 1 fibrous minerals. 1 and say, "You have no idea w hat you're talking about"? 2 Q So w hen D r N ashed says that their ore contains 2 A N o, I'm not aware w hether they did, or maybe 3 fibrous trem olite/actinolite, w e shouldn't believe him ? 3 they picked up the phone. 4 A W ell, I'd w ant to see the evidence, the x-ray 4 But, yeah. 5 diffraction, the scanning electron m icroscopy and 5 Q Right? 6 various other studies which actually said yes, it does 6 N ot aw are o f any; correct? 7 contain trem olite or actinolite. 7 A I'm not aw are o f any other opinion. 8 U ntil I've seen that, I'd say that he w as 8 Q Y ou can set that aside, sir. 9 probably guessing and m ay not have even, in 1971, been 9 A I f I m ay finish - - 1 hadn't actually quite 10 able to separate out rolled talc o r fibrous talc or 10 finished then -- I w as reading the rest o f the report, 11 talc p articles th at w ere fibrous in appearance from 11 b ecause w h a t the re st o f the report actually said is 12 trem olite o r actinolite. 12 th at the D artm outh C ollege o f G eology rep o rted on th eir 13 Q W ell, sir, haven't w e seen docum ent after 13 findings o f no trem olite o r asbestos in a sam ple o f 14 d o cu m en t talk in g ab o u t V erm o n t talc finding trem olite 14 p u rified talc from the V erm o n t m ine. 15 in it? 15 Q Again, that's another one o f your consultants; 16 A W e have seen docum ents that claim to have found 16 correct? 17 trem olite, yes. 17 A That's - that w ould be, yes. Yeah. 18 Q O ver and over and over again? 18 Q Okay. 19 A Y eah. But, again, w e've not exam ined as to 19 Right, sir. You can set that aside. 20 w hether that trem olite was asbestos trem olite or 20 This w ill be Exhibit 42. 21 m assive trem olite. 21 (Exhibit 42 m arked for identification) 22 Q W e've seen fibrous now several tim es, haven't 22 Okay. This is from Bill Ashton, August 6, 23 we? 23 1971, to W T Caneer at the Colorado School o f M ines; 24 A The w ord "fibrous" is often used in talc to 24 right? 25 describe fibrous talc. 25 A Yes. Page 259 1 In fact, quite a lot o f talc, maybe 3 or 1 2 4 per cent o f talc can be fibrous in nature. Just the 2 3 w ay it's processed, you get -- 3 4 Q Mmmhmm? 4 5 A --talc plates on their edge will look like a 5 6 fiber. Turn them round, they look like a plate. Talc 6 7 rolls up, it looks fibrous. 7 8 It is not unusual to see fibrous talc under 8 9 the microscope. 9 10 Q D oes he say fibrous talc here, or does he say: 10 11 "... fibrous m inerals 11 12 (trem olite/actinolite)"? 12 13 A H e's saying fibrous m inerals. 13 14 Q Okay. 14 15 A A nd in parentheses he's suggesting 15 16 trem olite/actinolite. 16 17 But D r N ashed was not an expert or a 17 18 m icroscopist. In fact, yeah, there's n o ev idence th at 18 19 it w as trem olite o r actinolite. 19 20 Q O ther than w hat he w rote in a Johnson & Johnson 2 0 21 m em o? 21 22 A Yes. 22 23 Q Right? 23 24 A Yes. 24 25 Q And, to your knowledge, did anyone write back 25 Page 261 Q A ll right. A nd he says: "I have shipped to B ob B eers' attention one drum o f Italian rock from the C rosetto m ine in the C hisone V alley o f the Italian A lps". R ight? A Yes. Q A nd he says here dow n at the bottom : "I have also checked into the m ineralization o f that p art o f the territory and the m inerals w hich show in the valley are: T alc, Pyrite, M agnetite, C alcite, D olom ite, A patite, C linochlore, C hrysotile, T ourm aline, T rem olite, A ctinolite, Illem enite, and A lbite". R ight? A Y es, they are - they are undoubtedly present in the valley in the territory. Q R ight. A nd three o f those he identified are chrysotile, trem olite and actinolite; right? A Yes. Q N ow , chrysotile is asbestos? A Yes. Q R ight? T rem olite and actinolite can occur as 66 (Pages 258 - 261) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 262 Page 264 1 asbestos; correct? 1 that's not the purpose o f the flotation process. 2 A Yes. 2 Q W ell, and the trem olite is still present after 3 Q Right. 3 flotation, as w e've seen; correct? 4 A nd that's in the Italian talc; correct? 4 A T here is a presence there, yes, and o f course 5 A N o, that's in a m ining area w hich could be 5 w e now know that that tremolite is not asbestos 6 several m iles aw ay from the talc mine. 6 tremolite. 7 Q Okay. 7 Q W ell, you keep saying that, and w e ll --we'll 8 So - 8 get there. 9 A It's in the -- it's in the V al C hisone valley, 9 (Exhibit 43 m arked for identification) 10 w hich is the area w hich is the -- from w hich the high 10 This is from A ugust 9 ,1971; do you see this? 11 grade Italian talc originates. 11 A Yes. 12 B u t w h a t he 's saying is in th at sam e area. 12 Q A nd this is from Shelley to Sunberg and Ashton. 13 It's the sam e w ith V erm ont. Y ou'll get - a 13 D id I give you a copy? 14 few m iles aw ay, you'll get a to tally d ifferent product 14 MS FROST: No. 15 from a cosm etic talc. 15 M R PANATIER: Take that one. 16 Q Ashton is sending him to Colorado School of 16 M S FROST: Thank you. 17 M ines a sam ple o f - he calls it "rock" from Italy that 17 B Y M R PA N A TIER : 18 contains chrysotile, actinolite a n d trem olite; right? 18 Q Okay? Right? 19 O r he's saying - I'm sorry, sending the 19 A nd w hat Shelley says to Sunberg and Ashton 20 sam ple o f rock and he's saying the m ineralology o f that 20 is: 21 area contains chrysotile, actinolite and trem olite; 21 "It is im portant that w e continue the process 22 true? 22 ... w o rk o n th is - on the rem oval o f fines from our 23 A Yeah, but you need to actually, and the court 23 baby pow der since this is the faction implicated in 24 needs to understand that when w e look at a talc mine, 24 talcosis and asbestos toxicology". 25 it's got to be clearly separate from those areas that 25 Does he say that? Page 263 Page 265 1 are not m ined for talc. 1 A That's w hat he says, yeah. 2 In other words, it could well be that a mile 2 Q Is he wrong to? 3 or two aw ay there are areas w hich are clearly not what 3 A If the fines were asbestos, that would be a 4 you'd want. 4 reasonable statement, but o f course w e know that there 5 Y o u 're g oing to g e t som e o f th o se m inerals, 5 is no asbestos. 6 like pyrite, m agnetite, calcite, dolom ite - there's a 6 Talcosis is a condition that occurs in talc 7 lot o f other m inerals listed there, and those w ill be 7 m iners w ho are heavily exposed to talc. I'm not aware 8 at some distance away from the actual talc part o f the 8 o f seeing that as something that occurs in consumers. 9 mine. 9 The point being here that M r Shelley was keen 10 Q W ell, from w h at w e've lo o k ed a t so far, th ere's 10 to proceed w ith the flotation process as a w ay o f 11 p lenty o f trem olite in the Italian talc y o u guys w ere 11 ensuring the pro d u ct w as even b etter th an it w ould be 12 u sin g and in the V erm ont talc; right? 12 otherw ise. 13 A N on-asbestos trem olite. 13 Q W ell, he's talking about the rem oval o f fines 14 Q W ell, actually, sir, none o f those documents 14 from the baby powder: 15 w ere v ery specific ab o u t w h eth er it w as fibrous o r not, 15 "... since t h i s ... fa c tio n ..." 16 w ere they? 16 A n d he's talk in g about th at segm ent o f the 17 A N o, but for a very sim ple reason. 17 pow der. 18 The w hole point o f the flotation process is 18 A Yeah. 19 to raise th e quality o f the talc, the size o f the 19 Q "... is im plicated in [two things:] talcosis 20 particles o f the talc. 20 and asbestos toxicology". 21 The m ain outcome o f that flotation process 21 N ow , talc can't cause an asbestos disease if 22 was to increase the size o f the large particles, the 22 there's no asbestos in it; right? 23 smooth, slippery particles, from m aybe 9 0 ,9 2 per cent 23 A Correct. 24 to 98 per cent. 24 Q Okay. 25 The m ention o f trem olite is present, but 25 A A nd let's be clear, M r Shelley is at this stage 67 (Pages 262 - 265) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 266 Page 268 1 a junior scientist, w ho basically I w ould say hadn't a 1 Q Okay. 2 clue w hat he w as saying. 2 Let's go to their actual results, w hich are 3 Q Okay. 3 on - it's B ates stam ped 8898. Okay? 4 A But, you know , I'm not going to say any m ore 4 Okay. Do you see that? 5 than that. 5 A Yes. 6 Q So he was wrong? 6 Q It says: 7 A H e w as - he w as giving an opinion, but it's 7 "In the m edicated powder, we found one fiber 8 not an opinion based on fact. 8 o f chrysotile, and w e estim ate that this powder 9 Q So it seems like -- it seems like for a lot o f 9 contains less than .001% a sb e sto s..." 10 these Johnson & Johnson m em os w ritten by Johnson & 10 R ig h t? 11 Johnson peo p le, y o u really tak e issue w ith w h at they 11 A Yes. Yeah. 12 w rote? 12 Q That's correct? 13 A W ell, it happens to be the sam e individual, 13 A B y the m ethodologies they w ere using, w hich I'm 14 M r Shelley, w ho w rote the last one that I took issue 14 h y in g to w o rk o u t w h a t th at is ... 15 w ith. 15 T he au th o r o f th is - it's interesting - the 16 B ut I'm entitled to take issue w ith w hat -- 16 author o f this report is actually saying that: 17 Q Sure. 17 "I m arvel at D r Pooley's ability to look at 18 A --som eone w rote in 1971 if it doesn't reflect 18 photographs and decide w hat they were. T w o m onths 19 the state o f know ledge today. 19 later, I am beginning to do that now . The little 20 Q This w ill be Exhibit 44. 20 characteristics o f each fiber are beginning to fit into 21 (Exhibit 44 m arked for identification) 21 place". 22 N ow , this is a docum ent from M cCrone, w ho was 22 So right at the beginning he's actually 23 one o f your consultants at the time; correct? 23 saying: you know , I'm n ot an expert on this, but based 24 A Correct. 24 w ith the technology I've got, the system I've got, I 25 Q This is dated Septem ber 3 ,1971, and it is to 25 think I can give you som e opinion. It's prelim inary. Page 267 Page 269 1 D r -- and I th in k it's A1 --G o u d ie -- is th at how 1 But, yeah. 2 y o u 'd say it --a t Johnson & Johnson? 2 Q W ell, okay. 3 A Yeah. D r Goudie, yes. 3 So first thing, I w ant to abide by our 4 Q A ll right. 4 agreem ent on objections, but I m ay have to start to 5 W as he a good doctor? 5 object to non-responsive, because we're ju st reading 6 A H e w as a physician, I believe. 6 the beginning o f the report. 7 Q W as he smart? 7 A Okay. Done. 8 A I've never m et him. 8 Q I don't w ant to have to do it, because -- 9 Q Okay. 9 A N o, no. Let's --let's go forward. 10 W as he a junior doctor, w hose statem ents w e 10 Q W e have an agreement. 11 can 't trust? 11 But, okay, so - 12 A I've never m et him. I don't know w hat his age 12 A I will try and answ er the question. 13 o r experience w a s at th at tim e. 13 Q Okay. 14 Q Okay. A ll right. I'm ju st checking before w e 14 So here's the question: look at the page I 15 talk ab o u t w h a t he says. 15 asked y o u to lo o k at. H e says: 16 So this was from M cCrone, w hich was a lab, a 16 "In the medicated powder, we found one fiber 17 testin g lab; correct? 17 o f chrysotile, a n d w e estim ate th at th is pow der 18 A Yes. 18 contains less than .001% asbestos". 19 Q A nd it says: 19 C o rrect? 20 "D ear D r Goudie: 20 A That's w hat he says. 21 Enclosed are two copies o f our prelim inary 21 Q Y our consultant is telling you that your 22 report on the G rantham ore and the Show er to Show er anc 22 m edicated pow der, m ade from talc from Verm ont, w hich is 23 m edicated powders". 23 the sam e m ine that you're getting the baby pow der from, 24 R ig h t? 24 had chrysotile in it; correct? 25 A Yeah. 25 A T h at's w h a t he said on h is prelim inary report, 68 (Pages 266 - 269) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 270 Page 272 1 yes. 1 A That's true, yes. 2 Q A nd, in fact, so this is -- the date o f this 2 Q Okay. 3 rep o rt, ju s t so I h a v e it co rrect, is S ep tem b er 3, '71. 3 Then it says: 4 A n d he says -- he actually gives a specific 4 "In running the standards o f the additives to 5 p ercen tag e, an d h e says th ere is .001 p e r cent 5 the m ed icated po w d e r an d to ... Show er to S h o w e r... w e 6 chrysotile in m edicated pow der; right? 6 did find two fibers o f chrysotile, positively 7 A Y e s . C a n w e -- w h a t h e d o e s d e s c r ib e i t a s in 7 id e n tifie d ... b y m orp h o lo g y an d diffraction patterns 8 th e G -l 1 sam p le. I'd lik e y o u to m a k e su re th at's on 8 in the G -l 1 sample. These tw o fibers w ere veiy close 9 the record. 9 together and m ay have come from the same source. 10 Q S ir- 10 A gain, the percentage w as low , 0.005-0.001% , b ut this 11 A H e's say in g in th e G -l 1 sam ple. 11 m ay b e a poten tial source o f contam ination o f the end 12 Q W e'll -- w e're g o in g to g e t there. 12 product". 13 A Okay. 13 So there's an additive; right? 14 Q W e 're lo o k in g a t w h a t h e a c tu a lly sa id o n th e 14 A Yes. 15 p a g e I'm ask in g y o u ab o u t; okay? 15 Q T hat has been added to the Shower to Shower; 16 A W hich page is that? 16 right? 17 Q It's th e p a g e I'v e to ld y o u ab o u t n o w tw o 17 A Yeah, yeah. 18 tim es, 8898. 18 Q A nd the m edicated powder; right? 19 A Okay. 19 A Yes. 20 Q W e're g o in g to lo o k a t - w e're looking*at the 20 Q A nd they find chrysotile in the additives; 21 actual report; okay? 21 right? 22 A Yeah. 22 A T hey claim to have found chrysotile, yes. 23 Q H e says verbatim : 23 Q Okay. Y ou can set that aside. 24 "In the m edicated pow der, w e found one ftbei 24 N ow , here is m y question about M cCrone: so 25 o f chrysotile, and w e estim ate that this pow der 25 M cC rone is a professional testing lab; right? Page 271 Page 273 1 contains less than .001% asbestos". 1 A Yes. 2 C o rrect? 2 Q A nd they're som eone that after this report - 3 A That's w hat he says. 3 this is the first M cCrone report you and 1have looked 4 Q Okay. 4 at, but after this report, Johnson & Johnson sent 5 H e's telling Johnson & Johnson there is 5 samples o f talc to M cCrone for years and years and 6 chrysotile asbestos in the m edicated powder; correct? 6 years. Probably hundreds or even thousands o f samples; 7 A By the techniques he was using to measure. 7 isn't that right? 8 Q Right. 8 A That's correct, yes. 9 A nd these w ere --you guys sent stuff to 9 Q A ll right. 10 experts; right? T hey w ere an expert, w eren't they? 10 So as o f the tim e o f this report, Johnson & 11 A They were an expert in the techniques at the 11 Johnson did n 't re g iste r an y com plaints w ith M cC rone 12 tim e, yes. 12 about their abilities, did they? 13 Q Y o u u se d M cC rone for 2 0 ,3 0 years, d id yo u not? 13 A I don't k n o w the answ er to that. 14 A Yes. 14 Q Okay. 15 Q Okay. 15 So I can understand the structure o f the mine 16 A nd so, sir, you understand, at 16 versus Johnson & Johnson, so the V erm ont m in e, that was 17 .001 p e r cent, th at c an m ean hun d red s o f thousands o r 17 called the W indsor m ines, I guess? 18 m illions o f fibers p e r gram ; y o u und erstan d that, 18 A Yes. 19 right? 19 Q Hammondsville, Argonaut, maybe some others, but 20 A If that were confirm ed, yes. 20 Johnson & Johnson only used talc out o f Hammondsville, 21 Q Okay. 21 A rgonaut and m aybe R ainbow at som e point. W e'll talk 22 B ecause .001 per cent in ju st our kind o f 22 about that. 23 lay, everyday language doesn't sound like a lot. B ut 23 D id Johnson & Johnson m ine industrial talc 24 in terms o f very, very tiny fibers, it could be very 24 w ith higher levels o f amphibole? 25 m any fibers; true? 25 A There was a separate m ine, w hich I believe was 69 (Pages 270 - 273) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 274 Page 276 1 several m iles away, w hich w as the industrial talc mine. 1 m icroscopist? 2 T hey owned that for a short period o f time. 2 A He is recognized, yes. Yeah. 3 Q W as that the Johnson mine? 4 A I believe that's w hat it w as called, yes. 3 Q Okay. 4 Y ou can see here it says under the Summary on 5 Q A nd how long did they ow n that mine? 5 the second page: 6 A Two or three years. 6 "Three talc samples identified as 2676-55A, 7 Q W hen? 7 ... 55B , a n d ... 55C , have b een exam ined for the 8 A M id-'60s to later '60s. 8 W in d so r M ineral C om pany w ith p articu lar em phasis being 9 Q Okay. 9 placed on the fiber content o f the materials, 10 A A gain, an estimate. 10 particularly fibers o f the asbestiform m inerals". 11 Q Okay. 11 Okay. D o you understand that? 12 Now , during the period o f tim e - w hen did 12 A Yes. 13 Johnson & Jo h n so n o w n the m ines? 13 Q Okay. 14 A E arly '60s and sold them in '6 8 ,1 think. 14 N ow , under sam ple C, they say that they 15 Q To who? 15 id en tified a fib er th at the -- tw o fine fibers th at had 16 A To Cyprus Minerals. 16 the m orphology o f chrysotile; right? 17 Q Okay. 17 A Yes, yeah. 18 A nd then Cyprus and its successor companies 18 Q If you turn to the page w hich is 5970, they 19 ra n it until '03? 19 talk about sam ple A , and there they say: 20 A T h at's -- th at's correct, yes. 20 "W e found four fibers, three o f w hich could 21 Q Now, was there another company that was 21 b e ... [classified] as suspect on the basis o f their 22 actually doing the m ining that Johnson & Johnson had -- 22 morphology, but none o f these fibers could be 23 I don't know w hat you w ant to do -- relied upon, paid 23 positively identified. O f the three suspect fibers, 24 to do the actual m ining? O r were they Johnson & 24 one has a lim ited sim ilarity and two have substantial 25 Johnson m iners? 25 sim ilarity to the m oiphology o f chrysotile, but they Page 275 Page 277 1 A The company was owned by Johnson & Johnson. 1 could not be identified as this mineral as we were 2 N ot another company. 2 unab le to o b tain [an] electron diffraction pattern ... 3 Q Okay. 3 from them". 4 A It was owned by Johnson & Johnson. 4 Now , electron diffraction pattern is SAED; 5 Q A nd that's W indsor M inerals? 5 right? 6 A Yes. 6 A Yes. 7 Q Okay. 7 Q Selected A rea Electron Diffraction? 8 So Johnson & Johnson owned W indsor M inerals 8 A Yes, yeah. 9 that w as doing the mining? 9 Q A nd that's w hat Langer w as doing on chrysotile; 10 A Correct, yes. 10 correct? 11 Q Okay. 11 A Yes. 12 A nd they were mining the cosm etic talc for 12 Q A nd you said that's not a good technique? 13 u se in S how er to Show er, the b ab y pow der, m edicated 13 A It's a broad technique. It w ill pick up 14 pow der, e t cetera? 14 chrysotile i f it's there, but it can also give a false 15 A Sure. Yes. 15 im pression, b ecause it do esn't necessarily separate out 16 Q Okay. 16 chrysotile from chlorite. 17 This w ill be Exhibit 45. 17 I f you've got --chlorite's a com m on trace 18 (Exhibit 45 m arked for identification) 18 in - in talc. 19 Here we go. 19 Q Are you - are you thinking o f x-ray 20 A Thank you. 20 diffraction? 21 Q A ll right, sir. 21 A Sorry, is that what you said? 22 C an you see this is a report from M cCrone to 22 Q N o. I said Scanning A rea Electron Diffraction. 23 W indsor M inerals, O ctober 21 ,7 1 ; right? 23 A Oh, I'm sorry. I w a s n 't- 24 A Yes. 24 Q A re you talking about x-ray diffraction? 25 Q A nd it's by Ian Stewart. Is he -- is he a good 25 A I w as talking about x-ray diffraction. 70 (Pages 274 - 277) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 278 Page 280 1 Q Okay. 1 few times. 2 A Yes. 2 The last point on Observations, he says: 3 Q So w hen Langer on that paper -- w e can go back 3 "The possibility that the suspect fibers 4 to it if you need to -- 4 found in sam ples A and B originate from some external 5 A Yeah. 5 source o f contam ination cannot be precluded". 6 Q --he w as doing electron diffraction. 6 R ig h t? 7 A That's correct, yes. 7 A Yes. 8 Q Not XRD? 8 Q Okay. 9 A Yeah, yeah. 9 W e'll ask some questions about that as w e see 10 Q A nd just so w e can get it straight, because 10 it m ore. Y ou can set that aside. 11 w e'v e b e en talking about th ese th in g s a lot, right, X R D 11 A Okay. 12 is x -ray diffraction. 12 VIDEOGRAPHER: Excuse me. 13 A Correct. 13 M R PANATIER: Yeah. 14 Q T hat is not a m icroscope, is it? 14 V ID EO G RA PH ER: Y ou've got about five m inutes 15 A No, no, no. 15 m o re o f reco rd in g tim e. 16 Q X RD can tell you generally if a m ineral is 16 M R PA N A TIER: Okay. W e'll do one m ore 17 p resent; right? 17 docum ent. 18 A Yes. 18 This is Exhibit 46. 19 Q Som etim es it can m ix two up, like you said 19 (Exhibit 46 m arked for identification) 20 chlorite and chrysotile? 20 Q D id I give you two o f them ? There. A ll right. 21 A Correct, yes, yes. 21 T here is it is. T hank you. 22 Q Right. 22 Okay. So, sir, this is correspondence from 23 It is only sensitive down to about half 23 D r Langer at M ount Sinai, Novem ber 11,1971; right? 24 a per cent; right? 24 A Yes. 25 A W ell, some o f the m odem methods are probably 25 Q Okay. Page 279 Page 281 1 slight better, but, yeah, w e'll give you that, yes. 1 A N ovem ber 10, yeah. 2 Q Okay. 2 Q Right. 3 I m ean, back in the '70s, it w as -- 3 N ow , he's talking about at first the Tenovus 4 A Yeah, yes. 4 samples, and those were the ovarian tissue sam ples we 5 Q --sensitive to about h alf a per cent? 5 discussed earlier; right? 6 A Yes. In th e '70s, yes. 6 A Yes. 7 Q T hen you have optical m icroscopy, w hich can 7 Q Okay. 8 actually see m orphology? 8 A nd he says: 9 A Yes. 9 "In respect o f the Tenovus samples that were 10 Q B ut it can't see --a lot o f the fibers it 10 sent to us, w e m ade the follow ing observations. W e did 11 can't see a t all b ecause they're too sm all; right? 11 find som e grains th at resem b led talc w ith the usual 12 A Yes, up to a point, yeah. 12 electron diffraction pattern consistent for a sheet 13 Q T h en y o u have transm ission electron m icroscopy? 13 silicate structure". 14 A Yes. 14 Then later on: 15 Q W hich can see very, very, very sm all fibers; 15 "W e assum e that the particles were talc or, 16 right? 16 rather, w ere consistent w ith talc. W e also got a few 17 A Yes. 17 surprises in that w e observed som e chrysotile asbestos 18 Q Okay. 18 to be present in the tissue as w ell". 19 So the criticism you were leveling earlier, 19 A nd w e have the m em o from Johnson & Johnson 20 you were thinking about XRD , not SAED? 20 from this m eeting that you and I have already talked 21 A Yes. I m isheard what you said. 21 about; right? 22 Q That's fine. Okay. I ju st wanted to clear 22 A Yes. 23 that up. A ll right. 23 Q W here Johnson & Johnson's person reports back 24 So then let's go dow n to O bservations, 24 that D r Langer show ed us w hat he said was chrysotile in 25 because I think we're going to see this from M cCrone a 25 the Tenovus sam ples; right? 71 (Pages 2 7 8 - 2 8 1 ) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 282 Page 284 1 A Yes. 1 Now , M r Clare I believe is the President o f 2 Q Okay. 2 J& J at the time. 3 A nd now , let's look at the second page. 3 Is that your recollection? If I'm wrong, 4 There's the highlight there: 4 tell m e w ho he is? 5 "W e also observed trace amounts o f chrysotile 5 A I've m et -- w hen w as this, '72 --I m et 6 asbestos only when the talc was sonified and m arkedly 6 M r Clare. I think he was the President o f the baby 7 dispersed. The am ounts o f chrysotile are relatively 7 products company. 8 sm all, occurring in amounts, w e estim ate, at less than 8 Q Okay. A ll right. 9 .01%. The J & J baby talc is o f quite highly quality 9 A N ot the w hole --not the w hole corporation. 10 and as a m atter o f fact, in relation to the num ber o f 10 Q H e w as the President o f the baby products 11 sam ples w e have ex am in ed th u s far, it is the 'purest'". 11 com pany, w h ich is a division? 12 R ig h t? 12 A Yes. 13 A That's w hat he says, yes. 13 Q Right. Okay. 14 Q H e say s it's th e purest, b u t it still has .01 14 So Nashed reports his conversation with 15 o r less th an th at p e r cent chrysotile; correct? 15 L an g er to M r C lare, a n d th en he w as asked to contact 16 A B y his m ethod o f electron diffraction. 16 M r R om er o f the N ew Y ork D epartm ent o f A ir Resources. 17 Q Okay. 17 So then in the next paragraph we get to that: 18 So that is Novem ber 10,1971. 18 "I pointed out to M r Rom er that he attended 19 L et's go ahead and sw itch out the tape. 19 the FD A m eeting on A ugust 3 and it w as obvious at that 20 (O ff the record at 4:06 pm) 20 tim e from both our findings and D r Langer's com m ent 21 (On the record at 4:18 pm) 21 that Johnson & Johnson B aby Pow der is free o f asbestos. 22 M R PANATIER: Okay. 22 M r Rom er said that he understands that our powder may 23 This w ill be Exhibit 47. 23 still contain traces o f asbestos and since Dr Selikoff 24 (Exhibit 47 m arked for identification) 24 had previously said that the only safe level is zero, 25 Q A ll right. So this is June 17,1972. It's 25 he still feels that we have not proven that our powder Page 283 Page 285 1 m em o to the file. 1 is com pletely safe". 2 So I guess som etim es if guys ju st had stuff 2 Now, let m e ask about that just real quick. 3 they w anted to record, they w ould do a m em o and put it 3 D r N ashed here says he told M r Rom er it was 4 in the file? 4 obvious from that tim e that both their findings -- 5 A That's usual, yes. 5 J& J's findings and D r Langer's com m ent, m eant that J& J 6 Q Right? 6 Baby Pow der is free o f asbestos, but four paragraphs 7 A Yeah. 7 above D r Langer has been very clear that he thinks 8 Q A nd this one is D r Nashed again? 8 Johnson & Johnson's product still has asbestos in it; 9 A Yeah. 9 correct? 10 Q Right? Okay. 10 A On the one hand, D r Langer is saying that he 11 I f you go to the second page, he's reporting 11 co u ld n 't find a n y asbestos, b u t then h e w as kin d o f 12 about his m eetin g w ith D r Langer. 12 hanging onto his first thoughts that, w ell, m aybe it 13 He said: 13 does. 14 "I asked D r Langer if he can state that our 14 Q W ell, in the earlier docum ent he actually said 15 b a b y po w d e r is free o f asbestos as a result o f the 15 he d id fin d asbestos. 16 conference a n d rev iew o f A u g u st 3 ,1 9 7 1 , w ith the FD A . 16 Do w e have to go back to that? The one from 17 H e said he still thinks that Johnson & Johnson's 17 N ovem ber 10 o f '71? 18 p ro d u ct co n tain s m inute traces o f asbestos an d he 18 A Okay. 19 b eliev es h e can fin d asbestos fibers a fte r b reaking 19 Q .01 p e r cent chrysotile? 20 dow n the platelets by ultrasonic technology -- 20 A That preceded the m eeting, according to this, 21 ultrasonic energy". 21 w ith -- the m eeting w ith FD A , w hich D r Langer w as 22 Okay. Skip dow n a little bit: 22 present. 23 "A fter reporting m y conversation with D r 23 A nd m y understanding o f that meeting was that 24 Langer to M r Foster and M r Clare, I w as asked to 24 the outcome was that asbestos was not present. 25 contact M r Rom er, NY Departm ent o f A ir Resources". 25 Q Okay, but -- 72 (Pages 282 - 285) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 286 Page 288 1 A T hat w as - you know , that w as 12 m onths 1 and m ore detailed analysis show ed only trace amounts o f 2 earlier. 2 asbestos in our powder. Also said our talc is most 3 Q Y eah, I get it. 3 pure they have seen. Times quoted FD A their test 4 B ut right here on the m em o w e're talking 4 show ed 'no detectable content o f asbestos' in our baby 5 about, Langer tells N ashed he still thinks there's 5 powder. A rticles follow". 6 asbestos in Johnson's B aby Pow der; correct? 6 So Langer says: I revised m y num bers down 7 A T hat was his opinion still, yes. 7 from the prelim inary report. H e still thinks there's 8 Q Okay. 8 traces o f asbestos in it; correct? 9 A H e'd not retracted at that point. 9 A B y the m ethods he was using. 10 Q A nd the fellow who worked for the N ew York 10 Q Yeah? 11 D ep artm en t o f A ir R esources said th at he understands 11 A Yes. 12 th at Joh n so n 's B ab y P o w d er m ay still co n tain traces o f 12 Q Okay. 13 asbestos: 13 A ll right, sir. So let's go to the next 14 "... and since D r S elikoff had previously 14 docum ent. 15 said th at the on ly safe level is zero, he still feels 15 So that w as June 20. Langer says he still 16 that w e have n o t proven that our pow der is com pletely 16 thinks there's trace asbestos in baby powder; right? 17 safe". 17 Is that correct, sir? 18 So I w ant to ask about that. 18 A B y the m ethods he was using, yes. 19 Certainly, Johnson & Johnson agrees that the 19 Q Right. 20 only safe level o f asbestos in baby powder is zero; 20 A Yeah. 21 correct? 21 Q This will be Exhibit 49. 22 A Yes. 22 (Exhibit 49 m arked for identification) 23 Q Okay. 23 This is three days later. This is a letter 24 Y ou can see that aside, sir. 24 from D avid R Clare, the President o f the - well, this 25 This w ill be Exhibit 48. 25 right here up top says Johnson & Johnson Office o f the Page 287 Page 289 1 (Exhibit 48 m arked for identification) 1 President. 2 Hopefully this will help us clear up the 2 A Yeah. 3 stuff about D r Langer. This is Exhibit 48. 3 Q So is he the President of all Johnson & 4 So this is June 20,1972. So this is three 4 Johnson? 5 days after the m em o you and I ju st looked at. 5 A Yeah, it would appear so. 6 A Yeah. 6 Q Okay. 7 Q Okay. It's again from D r Nashed: 7 A Yeah. 8 "The N Y Tim es published revised article 6/17 8 I --he was originally the baby products, so 9 that [the] N Y Environm ental Protection A gency had 9 he may have been promoted in that time, yeah. 10 m isinterpreted data regarding Johnson's B aby Power". 10 Q Right. 11 So let's stop there. 11 So three days after Langer reiterates that he 12 I'm sure you know from the review o f the 12 still thinks there's trace asbestos in the baby powder, 13 docum ents y o u lo o k ed a t th at th ere w as a prelim inary 13 the President of Johnson & Johnson writes to all 14 report that said that consum er talcum pow ders had 14 employees; right? 15 b etw een 5 a n d 2 0 p e r cen t asbestos in them ; right? 15 "We are writing to you about an article which 16 A Yeah. 16 appeared in the June 16 edition of the New York Times 17 Q A n d th at w as M o u n t Sinai a n d th ey rev ised those 17 alleging asbestos in Baby Powder. The article 18 n u m bers dow n; correct? 18 published false information about JOHNSON'S Baby Powder 19 A T hey did. 19 but was clarified the following day in The Times." 20 Q Okay. 20 Then they attach the articles for people to 21 "Source o f data at M ount Sinai School o f 21 read; right? 22 M edicine ..." w hich is Langer. 22 A Yes. 23 W e know that's Langer; correct? 23 Q Okay. 24 A Yeah. 24 If you go down to number 3, he lists key 25 Q "... said his original report w as prelim inary 25 facts, but here's number 3 I want to talk to you about: 73 (Pages 286 - 289) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 290 Page 292 1 "Dr L anger o f M ount Sinai Hospital, w ho did 2 the tests referred to by the N ew Y ork City 1 Q Y ou tell me. Y ou said that it was --there was 2 some issue with the technique. So I want to know what 3 E nvironm ental Protection A dm inistration, adm itted that 3 it is. 4 his analysis w as incorrect and said further that the 4 A Okay. 5 light m icroscope technique used is unreliable and 5 Yeah, he w as using x-ray diffraction. That 6 [that] 'the fibers th at they have seen under those 6 w as his initial read. X -ray diffraction. 7 conditions w ere proven to be talc not asbestos"'. 7 Q Do you rem em ber the memo o f the visit where 8 B ut w e know three days before he's saying 8 they said they looked at the sample at 20,000 times? 9 there's still asbestos in the product; correct? 9 A T hat w as the m icroscopic as well. 10 A Yeah, by the technique that he was using, w hich 10 Q That's transm ission electron microscope. 11 w ere n ev er validated. 11 D o w e need to go back to it? 12 Q D idn't M r Clare tell the em ployees o f Johnson & 12 A D id it say transmission electron m icroscope? 13 Johnson th ere that, w hile D r L an g er to o k his num bers 13 Q It said 20,000 times. 14 dow n, he still believed there w as asbestos in the baby 14 A W ell, a good laboratory m icroscope w ill pull 15 p ow der? D id h e com m unicate that? 15 that. 16 A W ell, w hat he com m unicated was the second 16 Q It w ill not. 17 page - 17 A Okay. Let's look. 18 Q I am not asking w hat he comm unicated. 18 Does it actually say transmission electron 19 A --in the attachment. 19 m icroscope? 20 Q I'm ask in g i f he co m m unicated a certain thing. 20 Q W ell, w e can go back to it, but let me ask 21 D id he comm unicate that Langer had reiterated 21 you a question. 22 that there w as still asbestos in the baby powder? 22 A I think it's quite important. 23 A I w ould need to read this in m ore detail. 23 Q W e can. Absolutely. Let me see if I can find 24 M y understanding was --as you say, the 24 it... 25 heading in The N ew York Times, D octor A dm its H e M ay 25 I'm going to have to find that letter. Let Page 291 Page 293 1 H ave Been M istaken, was essentially the withdrawal o f 1 m e ju s t fin d i t ... 2 his original opinion, and that original opinion is 2 So here is the letter. This is from Novem ber 3 confirm ed by the Food and Drug Administration. It was 3 10,71; okay? 4 clear. It said that there w asn't asbestos. 4 M S FRO ST: W hich docum ent is that, please? 5 So m y read o f that is that M r Clare was 5 M R PANATIER: This one. 6 saying w hat was the opinion at the tim e, that the 6 M S FROST: W hich Exhibit? 7 fibers were talc and not asbestos. 7 M R PA N A TIER: T hat one. 11.10.71. 8 Q W ell, look at the article he sent along. Go 8 M S KAGAN: 46. 9 back to the article. Okay? 9 M R PA N A TIER: It's like tw o or three back. 10 Look in the third colum n over, second 10 46? Okay. 11 p arag rap h dow n: 11 Q H ere w e go. A ll right. H ere's page 2 o f it. 12 "But Langer said the am ount o f asbestos he 12 L ook at the top o f page 2. 13 saw in the b ab y po w d er w as o n ly a bare trace level. A t 13 A Yeah. Okay. Electron microscope. 14 the current state o f m edical know ledge, he sa id there 14 Q Okay. 15 is n o w a y o f k n ow ing i f such a sm all q uantity could be 15 A Okay. I'll give you that. 16 harmful". 16 Q T hank you, sir. 17 So he's in the article saying that there is 17 So Langer is using the electron microscope 18 still asbestos in the product, is he not? 18 and that is w hat he's basing his opinion on that the 19 A H e's saying it, but b y the m ethodologies and 19 Johnson's B aby Pow der has trace asbestos; correct? 20 the test procedures that he was using in 1972. 20 A That's his opinion, yes. 21 That's w hat he is saying. 21 Q Okay. 22 Q Ah-hah, and what test procedures was he using? 22 A nd do you have, as you sit here today, any 23 A W ell, let's go back to the original report, 23 actual scientific technique o f --scientific critique 24 shall we, w hich you gave to me? 24 o f the m ethod he w as using, w hich was electron 25 Is it m icroscopy? Light m icroscopy? 25 microscopy? 74 (Pages 290 - 293) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 294 Page 296 1 A Okay. The standard methodology to measure 1 Q Okay. 2 asbestos or otherwise is to use electron diffraction. 2 W hich is w hy it's so im portant to continue to 3 Q Do you mean x-ray diffraction? 3 m onitor a m ine source, even if it had been initially 4 A X-ray diffraction -- optical polarized light 4 cleared; right? 5 m icroscopy and scanning or transm ission electron 5 A Yes, absolutely. 6 m icroscopy. You can add infrared trace as well. 6 Q A ll right. 7 It's only w hen you pull all those together 7 J& J understood that the whole tim e it was 8 that you get a higher level o f surety and assurance 8 selling talc; right? 9 that there's no asbestos present. 9 A Yes. 10 Q Okay. 10 Q Okay. 11 W e'll talk a little b it m ore about those, b u t 11 A ll right. This is 78. 12 the C T FA J4 th a t they adopted in '76, did it have a 12 This w ill be Exhibit 50. 13 requirem ent fo r electron m icroscopy? 13 (Exhibit 50 m arked for identification) 14 A Initially --no, it did not, no. B u t Johnson & 14 A Thank you. 15 Johnson added th eir ow n requirem ent -- 15 Q All right. So this a report from M cCrone 16 Q I understand. 16 again; right? 17 A - at that time. 17 A Yeah. 18 Q J4-1 is still in effect today? 18 Q A nd it's dated O ctober 27, '72; right? 19 A It is. 19 A Yes. 20 Q Is it not? 20 Q It is an exam ination o f Johnson & Johnson's 21 A Yeah, it is. 21 B ab y Pow der; correct? 22 Q Right. 22 A Y es, the title is Exam ination o f Johnson's Baby 23 A nd it still doesn't require electron 23 P o w d er --Jo h n so n & Joh n so n B aby P ow der, O ctober 27, 24 microscopy; right? 24 1972. 25 A That's m y understanding, yeah. 25 D o not use this report. Replaced by another Page 295 Page 297 1 Q Is CTFA J4 a reliable w ay to ensure there's no 1 version. 2 asbestos in talc? 2 Q Right, and we're going to get to that 3 A It's part o f the process, but part o f the 3 So inside this says: 4 process w ould also ensure that the m ine itself was 4 "Two samples o f Johnson & Johnson's Baby 5 validated to be free o f asbestos. 5 Powder, batch number 108T and 109T, which correspond to 6 A nd if you're doing that, then you w ould do 6 the samples examined by Professor ... Lewin... [from] 7 m ore than just CTFA J4 method. 7 New York University on behalf of the FDA have been 8 Q N o w , Johnson & Johnson understands th at m ines 8 examined by x-ray diffraction, light microscopy [and] 9 have inter-m ine variability; right? 9 transmission electron microscopy and electron 10 A They do. 10 diffraction to determine whether they contain any 11 Q That the ore can change from foot to foot or 11 asbestiform minerals". 12 inch to inch; correct? 12 Right? 13 A W ell, I'm not sure about the inch to inch. 13 A Yes. 14 G enerally, talc seam s are several feet thick. 14 Q Now, those are all the different types of 15 Q They can go from several feet to inches thick 15 microscopes that you said one ought to use, right? 16 to non-existent; right? 16 A Yes. 17 A Indeed, in which case, the miners would not 17 Q Okay. 18 b o th er w ith on e inch thick, th an k you. 18 And that's what McCrone was using here; true? 19 Q Right. 19 A Yes. 20 It w ouldn't m ake sense? 20 Q And it says: 21 A W ouldn't m ake sense. 21 "Both samples contained an insignificant 22 Q Right. 22 amount of tremolite (0.5% )". 23 In addition, the accessory m inerals also 23 Right? 24 change fro m sp o t to sp o t w ith in th e m ine; right? 24 A That's what it says. 25 A They do, yes. 25 Q Neither contained chrysotile; true? 75 (Pages 294 - 297) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 298 Page 300 1 A That's w hat it says. 1 So they only found trem olite; right? 2 Q Okay. 2 A That's w hat it says. 3 "On behalf o f the FDA, Professor Seymour Z 3 Q Okay. 4 Lew in o f N ew Y ork University is examining a num ber o f 4 And, in fact, it says they were rod-shaped; 5 comm ercial talcum powders for the presence o f 5 right? 6 asbestiform m inerals. Two o f the sam ples w hich he has 6 A Yes. 7 exam ined are sam ples o f Johnson & Johnson's Baby 7 Q Okay. 8 Powder, batch num ber 108T and batch num ber 109T. 8 Now, on the cover it says, "Do not use this 9 Johnson & Johnson therefore requested W alter C M cCron ! 9 report. Replaced by another version"; right? 10 A ssociates to exam ine sam ples from the sam e batches to 10 A Yeah. 11 d eterm ine w h e th er th ey con tain ed asbestiform m inerals". 11 Q So this is Exhibit 51. 12 Now, the background on this is that D r Lewin 12 (Exhibit 51 m arked for identification) 13 h a d said he fo und chrysotile; correct? 13 A nd you can see this is som eone's note on the 14 A Yes. 14 cover o f a M cC rone report that says: 15 Q A ll right. 15 "M cCrone study being done. N ew one is in the 16 So M cCrone is now testing them for Johnson & 16 m aster file". 17 Johnson; right? 17 R ig h t? 18 A Correct. 18 A That's w hat it says, yes. 19 Q Okay. 19 Q So w e saw the original report, you and I? 20 Oo under Light M icroscopy, please, on the 20 A Yeah. 21 follow ing page. 21 Q T hen it's been redone and they've put the cover 22 It says: 22 on it so w e know w hich one it is, the 10.27.72; 23 "The total trem olite content o f the two 23 correct? 24 samples w ould be approxim ately 0.5% for 108T and 24 A Correct. 25 0.2-0.3% for 109T". 25 Q Okay. Page 299 Page 301 1 Right? 1 So for some reason the report that you and I 2 A That's what it says, yes. 2 just discussed w here they found trem olite is being 3 Q So you have two samples: sample 1; sample 2. 3 redone. 4 In one of them you have .5 per cent of 4 D o you know w hy it's being redone? 5 tremolite, and in another you have between .2 to 5 A It's not unusual in any scientific analysis, 6 .3 per cent tremolite. 6 w hether you're m easuring pH or w hatever, to double 7 And then it says under Conclusion: 7 check your results. 8 "A detailed examination of two samples of 8 M y guess is that they were asked to --"W ould 9 Johnson & Johnson's Baby Powder, batch numbers 108T and 9 you double check that, please?" 10 109T, has shown this material to be substantially free 10 Q Okay. 11 of asbestiform minerals. A few tremolite rods were 11 W e're going to look at the revised report 12 observed in both samples at a level less than 0.5%''. 12 now . T h is w ill b e E x h ib it 52. 13 And they gave us the specific percentages, .5 13 (Exhibit 52 m arked for identification) 14 and .2 to .3; correct? 14 Okay. H ave you had a chance to look at it? 15 A Correct. 15 A I'm reading it. 16 Q Okay. 16 Q A ll right. 17 And Under Electron Microscopy it says: 17 Ready? 18 "Several electron microscope grids from both 18 A Yeah. 19 samples were examined in their entirety and although 19 Q Okay. 20 some fibers were observed these were shown by electron 20 So in the one you and I looked at they give 21 diffraction to be shards of talc or rolled talc. No 21 the percentages o f trem olite; right? 22 chrysotile fibers were found". 22 A Yeah. 23 Right? 23 Q It says: 24 A Correct. 24 "Do not use this report". 25 Q Okay. 25 Then in the revised report, which dated the 76 (Pages 298 - 301) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 302 Page 304 1 sam e date; right? 1 were found". 2 A I'm going to stop you there. It's not a 2 R ig h t? 3 revised report. It's identical. It's a photocopy. 3 A That is correct. That's the revised version. 4 W hen scientists' laboratories do a report, 4 Q A nd then, lastly, in the original version in 5 they give a report num ber. In this case, it's 2546, 5 the Conclusion, it says: 6 and the second one you've given m e also says 2546. 6 "A few trem olite rods were observed in both 7 So it appears at first inspection that you've 7 sam ples at a level less than 0.5%". 8 got one that says, "D on't use this report. Replaced by 8 In the revised one, it ju st says: 9 another version", but Exhibit 52 is identical. 9 "A few trem olite rods were observed in both 10 It doesn't appear to be a replacem ent, unless 10 sam ples". 11 y o u can fin d differences. 11 R ig h t? 12 Q It is, and here's w here w e're going to find the 12 A T hat is correct. 13 replacem ent. 13 Q So for some reason M cCrone has taken a report 14 A Okay. 14 and they have redone it, left the sam e date and 15 Q So it is an identical report, as far as it is 15 everything, to ju s t tak e o ut all the percentages o f 16 the sam e sam ples; correct? 16 trem olite that they found; right? 17 A Yes. 17 A That's right. 18 Q It is the sam e date; correct? 18 Q A nd we know that Johnson & Johnson was aware 19 A It is, yes. 19 that there w as a new report because in the interim they 20 Q Everything is the sam e except for this. 20 had an internal m em o that said, "M cCrone study being 21 In the revised number, they took out o f 21 redone"; right? 22 percentages o f trem olite? 22 A Yes. 23 A Okay. 23 Q Okay. Y ou can set that aside, sir. 24 Q Right? 24 Can you tell us what communications occurred 25 A Yeah. G ot you. 25 betw een J& J and M cCrone w hen they received the origins 1 Page 303 Page 305 1 Q There's nothing --they don't say anything 1 report that w ould result in that second report? Are 2 about, "W ell, w e did it wrong". There's nothing about 2 you aware o f any communications? 3 a revised m ethod. N othing about that. 3 A I'm not aware. 4 A ll they did w as take out how m uch trem olite 4 Q Okay. 5 they found in Johnson's B aby Pow der; correct? 5 A B ut I'll stand to be corrected if you have 6 A Correct. 6 correspondence otherwise. 7 Q So in the first one, they said under the first 7 Q I w asn't on the phone w ith w hoever talked to 8 Summary paragraph: 8 whoever. 9 "Both samples contained an insignificant 9 A No. 10 am ount o f trem olite (<0.5% )". 10 Q A ll right. L et's do 80. 11 In the second version, the redone version, it 11 The bottom line is the results changed; 12 says: 12 right? 13 "Both samples contained an insignificant 13 A W ell, the final conclusion was they found a few 14 am ount o f trem olite --a few isolated crystals". 14 crystals o f trem olite, and the difference, o f course, 15 R ig h t? 15 is that th ey excluded their estim ation o f percentage. 16 A That's w hat it says, yes. 16 Q R ight. Okay. A ll right. H ere w e go. T his is 17 Q That's one change. 17 E xhibit 53. 18 Then if you turn the page, sir, the original 18 (Exhibit 53 m arked for identification) 19 says: 19 So here is N ashed to Goudie, and if you turn 20 "The total trem olite content o f the tw o 20 to the second page, you can see w hat they're talking 21 sam ples w o u ld be approxim ately 0.5% for 108T an d 21 about? 22 [about] 0.2-0.3% for 109T". 22 A Yes. 23 A nd all they put in the revised report was: 23 Q "Received report just --revised report just 24 "The sam ples were sim ilarly exam ined for the 24 received, 108T and 109T"? 25 presence o f trem olite and a few individual crystals 25 A Yeah. 77 (Pages 302 - 305) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 306 Page 308 1 Q W hich is the report we w ere ju st talking about; 1 August 24,1972, is this memo you and I are 2 right? 2 looking at now. This is from Dr Nashed, again, okay, 3 A Correct. 3 and he's cc'ing ten people, including the President of 4 Q A nd then it says --Nashed writes to Goudie and 4 the company; right? 5 he says: 5 A Yes. 6 "Dr Goudie 6 Q Okay. 7 I thought trem olite w as m istakenly identified 7 That's Mr Clare, and he's writing to RA 8 in view o f sim ilarity to N a sequicitrate!" 8 Fuller. 9 R ig h t? 9 Now, who's RA Fuller? 10 A Correct. 10 A I believe he was a research scientist. 11 Q A n d G oudie w rites b a c k --th at's A1 G oudie; 11 Q He says: 12 right? 12 "Dr Weissler, Director, [of the] Division of 13 A Yes. 13 Cosmetic, FDA, called us this afternoon to report they 14 Q He writes back: 14 had submitted a sample of SHOWER TO SHOWER previously 15 "There are trace quantities present confirm ed 15 examined by Dr Lewin to the Sperry Rand scanning 16 b o th b y M cC ro n e an d B ill A shton". 16 electron microscope facility this afternoon". 17 Now, Bill Ashton works for J& J; right? 17 Now, the background on Dr Lewin, we've talked 18 A H e did, yes. 18 about a little b it-- 19 Q "Levels are extremely low but occasionally can 19 A Yeah. 20 be detected optimistically. This is not new ." 20 Q -- is Dr Lewin had been retained by the FDA to 21 R ig h t? 21 look at a bunch o f different consumer talc products; 22 A T h at's w h a t it says. 22 right? 23 Q Okay. 23 A He had, yes. 24 So Johnson & Johnson knew there w as trem olite 24 Q He had reported chrysotile in the baby powder 25 in the Johnson's Baby Pow der; correct? 25 for Johnson & Johnson; right? Page 307 Page 309 1 A That's w hat it says. 1 A I believe so, yes. 2 Q A nd apparently it was nothing new; right? 2 Q A nd he had reported trem olite in the medicated 3 A That's w hat it says. 3 powder; correct? 4 Q This w ill be 54. 4 A He claim ed to have seen tremolite, yes. 5 (Exhibit 54 m arked for identification) 5 Q Sure. Sure. 6 W hen you and I were talking earlier, w e were 6 A nd Johnson & Johnson and its consultants 7 talking about the fact that if a com pany goes to a 7 took great issue w ith D r Lew in's findings; correct? 8 scientist and says, "Change your results", that would 8 A Yes. It didn't reflect the long history o f the 9 be a problem ; right? 9 results that the com pany had looked at. 10 A Yeah, if it w as a significant change, yes. 10 Q Right. 11 Q Okay. 11 It depends on how close you look, though, 12 A Y ou m ay --y ou m ay question and say, "W hat do 12 right, w hether you're going to find asbestos or not, i f 13 y o u m ean by this?" 13 i f s present? 14 That's not necessarily a change. 14 A If you're using the best techniques you'll find 15 Q Okay. 15 it. 16 W ell, w h a t w e'v e seen alread y n o w in '71 is 16 Q Right. 17 M cC rone ch an g in g th eir results; correct? 17 I f you're using the best techniques; right? 18 A N o, they --w ell, they've still said they found 18 A Yes. 19 trem olite. T h ey claim to have fo u n d trem olite. 19 Q Okay. 20 B u t all they've done -- 20 So: 21 Q They ju st took out how much? 21 "The report from Sperry Rand was that 22 A --they've taken out their estim ate -- 22 asbestos fibers could be detected in the sample. Dr 23 Q Okay. 23 W eissler said that he has in front o f him photographs 24 A -- o f less than .5 per cent. 24 from 6 fields at 12.000X m agnification showing fibers 25 Q Okay. 25 w ith length to w id th ratios o f 1 0 - t o - l ... 5 0 -to -l, one 78 (Pages 306 - 309) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 310 Page 312 1 o f them appearing on top o f a talc plate. He estim ated 2 that their diam eter is less than .05 micron". 1 A Yeah, and they could, if w hoever wrote this had 2 expertise, have said: could they be rolled talc, or 3 Now , 10-to-l, 50-to-l, with the width o f half 4 a m icron, that's a fiber; right? 3 could they be talc shards, fibrous talc? 4 H e m entioned trem olite, but he could have 5 A Correct. 5 said --could have given other options. 6 Q Okay. 6 Q Okay. 7 A Yeah. 7 A H e only m entioned tremolite. 8 Q "I asked D r W eissler if the Sperry Rand 8 Q W ell, he probably m entioned trem olite because, 9 facility handles minerals. H e said yes, they do a lot 9 as w e know , there's a very robust record o f the m ineral 10 o f w ork w ith chrysotile. I asked him , "H ave they 10 trem olite being present in the ores that Johnson & 11 reported to y o u the norm al back g ro u n d co n tam ination in 11 Johnson uses; correct? 12 th eir sam ples. A s y o u recall, th is w as a pro b lem in 12 A That is correct. 13 M o u n t S inai's laboratories". H e said no; how ever, he 13 Q Okay. 14 feels th at the m an w h o d id the w o rk is conservative and 14 A Yes. 15 w o u ld n o t h a v e rep o rted chrysotile u n less h e w as sure. 15 Q A nd so he says that: 16 I asked him i f he w as assured h im self --if he has 16 "I asked him if he has assured him self that 17 assured h im s e lf th at the fibers w ere n o t trem olite 17 the fibers w ere not trem olite w hich could be present in 18 w h ich c o u ld b e p re sen t in trace am ounts. H e said the 18 trace am ounts". 19 fibers are characteristic o f chrysotile a n d not 19 So he's certainly open to the possibility 20 trem olite". 20 that there are trem olite fibers that could be m istaken 21 So I'm going to stop there. 21 for chrysotile fibers; correct? 22 So Johnson & Johnson is talking to the 22 A H e's raising that as an option, yes. 23 Director o f the Division o f Cosm etics for the FDA; 23 Q Okay. 24 right? 24 A Yes. 25 A That's correct. 25 Q "I told D r W eissler that this inform ation is Page 311 Page 313 1 Q He says he has electron m icroscopy im ages o f 1 com pletely at variance with the information w e have 2 Johnson's Show er to Show er product and has found 2 from M cC rone and from our laboratories". 3 chrysotile in it; right? 3 R ig h t? 4 A H e's found particles w hich he claim s to 4 A Correct. 5 identify as chrysotile. 5 Q A ll right. 6 Q W ell, that's w hat you're saying. H e doesn't 6 D id anybody write back to D r Nashed, o f these 7 say: I've found particles I claim to identify as 7 ten people, including the President o f the company, to 8 chrysotile. 8 your know ledge, and say, "W hy would you suggest there 9 He says: w e've found chrysotile? 9 w ere fibers o f trem olite m istaken for chrysotile; w e've 10 A That's w hat he's saying, yes. 10 never had trem olite fibers in our product"? 11 Q Okay. 11 A I don't know if anyone w rote back or picked up 12 A nd Johnson's response is: well, are you sure 12 the phone. I've no idea. 13 it's n o t trem olite fibers, becau se th o se could be 13 Q Okay. 14 present in trace am ounts; right? 14 Y ou've never seen a correction to that? 15 A That's w hat it says here, yes. 15 A I've n o t seen an o th er opinion. 16 Q So this is D r Nashed again and he is suggesting 16 Q A ll right. All right, sir. You can set that 17 that: w ell, chrysotile fibers p ro b a b ly shouldn't be 17 aside. 18 there, b u t trem o lite fibers m ig h t be. W e get those 18 I'm going to try not to take a lot o f tim e on 19 from tim e to tim e; fair? 19 this docum ent. T his is 89. 20 A W ell, th at's w h at h e's saying. H e's asking 20 M S FROST: This is 55? 21 w h e th er the fib er is trem olite o r chrysotile. 21 M R PA N A TIER: That's going to be 55, yeah, 22 W e know, o f course, that there could be other 22 and there's tw o docum ents there, but they're one 23 minerals. 23 exhibit. T hey're one exhibit. Y ou can clip them 24 Q B ut w hat Johnson & Johnson volunteers to the 24 together if you want. 25 FD A is m aybe they are trem olite fibers; right? 25 (Exhibit 55 m arked for identification) 79 (Pages 310-313) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 314 Page 316 1 Q H ere you go, sir. 1 A Yes, yes. 2 A Thank you. 2 Q Okay. 3 Q Okay. So if you want to turn to the third page 3 H e identifies trem olite fibers throughout the 4 in -- 4 m ine, doesn't he? 5 A Yes. 5 A He finds trem olite m aterial in the area, but 6 Q --this is the Septem ber 8 report from D r 6 not to m y read --not to m y read o f this --he talks 7 Pooley, w ho w as a m icroscopist and a geologist? 7 about it, finding it in the foot wall and the areas 8 A H e's a geologist. H e's still alive. 8 w hich are not talc, basically. 9 Q Right, from the UK ? Right? 9 Q Okay. 10 A Yes. 10 A Yeah. 11 Q N o w , h e 's the one th at in 1996 tells B ill 11 Q N ow , in a m ine --you're not a m iner, are you? 12 A shton th at an ything containing eith er asbestiform or 12 A No. 13 non-asbestiform sh o u ld b e rejected, correct, and yo u 13 Q N either am I. I know you're surprised about 14 then got that m em o from M r A shton; right? 14 that. 15 A Yes. 15 Foot wall is literally, if you have a shaft, 16 Q So here he is in '72 and he's telling you guys 16 right, it's dow n at the base? 17 about the geology o f the Italian m ine; right? 17 A Yes. 18 A Yes. 18 Q H anging wall is up at the top; right? 19 Q N ow , by now in '72, yo u guys are allegedly done 19 A Yeah. 20 using Italian; right? 20 Q A nd then usually you have a vein going through 21 A In the US, yes. 21 the m iddle; right? 22 Q Yeah. 22 A Yeah. 23 W ere you using Italian elsewhere? 23 Q So hanging w all and foot wall are close; fair? 24 A It was used in the U K until 1985. 24 A They can be, yeah. 25 Q '85. O kay. T hank you. A ll right. 25 Q Yeah. Page 315 Page 317 1 So w hat that says on th at page is: 1 N ow , w hen we talk about talc miners, we 2 "This docum ent represents the completion 2 aren't talking about sort o f die classic visualization 3 report o f the Italian m ine samples and other powders 3 o f m ining w here there's a bunch o f guys w ith pick-axes. 4 su p p lied b y Johnson a n d Johnson, C osham , P ortsm outh, tc 4 G enerally, w e're talk in g ab o u t m achine-based m ining; 5 the D epartm ent o f M ineral Exploration [sic]". 5 correct? 6 A nd this is the lead --the lead guy here is 6 A Yes. 7 Pooley; right? 7 Q W here w hoever is operating the m achine takes 8 A Yes, P rof Pooley, yeah. 8 the m achine through the rock until he gets to the talc 9 Q Okay. 9 and stops the machine? 10 N ow , there's a lot o f different things we 10 A Yes. 11 co uld ta lk ab o u t o n here, b u t hav e y o u rev iew ed this 11 Q Then they com e in and they pull out the talc? 12 before? 12 A Yeah. 13 A I have read this before, yes. 13 Q B ring it back and sort it, float it, 14 Q Yeah. Okay. So m aybe I can short circuit this 14 beneficiate it, et cetera? 15 a little bit. 15 A Yes. 16 H e goes through the V al Chisone m ine; right? 16 Q Right? 17 A Yes. 17 A Yeah. 18 Q A nd he analyzes all sorts o f sam ples, including 18 Q So let's turn to the page, at the base it's 19 talc ore, the foot wall, hanging w all, all the 19 095. 20 different types o f rock that can come in contact with 20 A nd he's talking about --we're going to see 21 the ore in any w ay; right? 21 this over and over --he's talking about different 22 A O r not com e in contact. 22 specim ens; right? A nd w e have a record o f the 23 Q Right. 23 specim ens I believe right on the few pages before. 24 H e sam ples som e that you w ouldn't expect to 24 So if you kind o f w ant to keep those -- a 25 come in contact with the ore; true? 25 finger on those, starting at page 92, we can keep track 80 (Pages 314-317) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 1 1 o f w hat he's talking about; okay? Page 318 Page 320 1 these, so if 1 take a m om ent I'm saving us time. 2 A Okay. 2 Okay. A ll right. So go ahead and turn, if 3 Q W e can look at where these sam ples cam e from. 3 you w ill, to page num ber 132. 4 So let's do this one first. So 146 is what 4 M S FROST: Bates num ber 132? 5 he's talking about. So w e can turn to 146 and w e can 5 M R PANATIER: Yeah, 132 at the bottom, 6 see that it's ju st a face 3 colored specim en; right? 6 because at the top they're kind o f cut off. 7 A Yes. 7 Q A ll right, sir, I think you've got it. 8 Q Now , w hen he talks about "face", w hat is he 8 So this one at the very top, this is specimen 9 talking about? 9 141; okay? 10 A I don't know. As I said, I'm not a miner. 10 S o w e can see it says 141 is face 2 g o o d 11 Q Right. Okay. 11 specim en; okay? 12 In this sam ple he has identified that there's 12 A Yes. 13 trem olite a s on e o f the m inerals th at's present; true? 13 Q A nd this entry makes m e think that "face" means 14 A Yeah, yeah. 14 face o f the talc ore itself, okay, because here's w hat 15 Q Okay. 15 it says: 16 A W h en y o u re ad th e total report, y o u 'll -- as 16 "This specim en o f talc ore consists o f a 17 you've obv io u sly read it -- 17 coarse aggregate o f feathery talc intim ately intergrow n 18 Q Mmmhmm? 18 w ith m inor chlorite (var. sheridanite), and enclosing 19 A --you'll realize that w hat he w as doing w as 19 rare large porphyroblasts o f subhedral garnet w hich 20 looking at ju st about everything in the m ine w here he 20 occasionally contain long prism atic inclusions of 21 could possibly --possibly look finding the non-talc 21 trem olite". 22 areas and the talc mining areas. 22 R ig h t? 23 Q Sure. 23 A Yes. 24 A He was looking at what could possibly be in the 24 Q So this is him saying this is a good sample o f 25 geology o f the m ine. 25 talc ore that contains trem olite; right? Page 319 Page 321 1 Q Okay. 1 A It contains prism atic tremolite. 2 So do m e a favour, please, and turn to page 2 Q Long prism atic inclusions o f trem olite; right? 3 it's at the b o tto m 117. 3 A Yes. 4 T he m id d le one th ere, figure 17a. D o y o u see 4 Q Okay. 5 that? 5 Go to the next one, please. 6 A Yes. 6 L et's see ... A ctually, w e m ay be able to 7 Q T h a t's a t h in s e c tio n o f s a m p le 119; r ig h t? 7 skip ahead here. 8 A Yes. 8 A ll right. Go ahead and turn, if you will, 9 Q Okay. 9 please, sir, to page 168, the Bates number. 10 N o w g o b a c k to 119 th e re , a n d th a t's sh o w n to 10 D o you have it there? 11 b e a t r e m o lite q u a r tz ta lc s a m p le ; c o r re c t? 11 A Yes. 12 A Yeah. 12 Q Okay. 13 Q T h a t's a ta lc s a m p le th a t c o n ta in e d tre m o lite 13 This is the section for electron micrographs 14 and quartz; true? 14 o f particles produced from those specim ens containing 15 A W ell, it's a trem o lite sam p le th at con tain s 15 am phibole m ineral a n d also fro m th e am phibole m ineral 16 talc. 16 itself. 17 Q O kay. A ll right. 17 A nd then if you turn the page he's got - 18 So h e - here h e has found trem olite in 18 these are electron photom icrographs; correct? 19 association w ith talc; correct? 19 A Yeah. 20 A Yeah. 20 Q H e's using an electron m icroscope; right? 21 Q A nd he describes it as "coarse bladed 21 A H e is, yes, yes. 22 trem olite"; right? 22 Q Y ou see here trem olite carbon --carbonate talc 23 A Yeah. 24 Q Okay. 25 L et's g o to - I'm g o in g to sk ip so m e o f 23 sam ple at 3,000 magnification; right? 24 A Yeah. 25 Q L et's ju s t check w hat 119 is. 81 (Pages 3 1 8 - 3 2 1 ) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 322 1 119. That's that trem olite quartz talc 1 asbestos. Page 324 2 sam ple w e looked at before. So that's the actual 2 Q I think w e'll see how Johnson & Johnson defines 3 image; okay? 3 fiber here coming up, but not right now. 4 A Yes. 4 Num ber 90, please. 5 Q I f you go to page 170, you've got particles 5 This is Exhibit 56. 6 produced from single crystals o f trem olite extracted 6 (Exhibit 56 m arked for identification) 7 from specim en 119 and 120; right? 7 So I'm going to go to the board and ju st get 8 So w e don't have to go through the re st o f 8 us caught up. 9 these. 9 So that w as Septem ber o f '72 w as the Pooley 10 So there certainly is a good amount o f 10 report. 11 trem olite in the surrounding rock, a n d o f course w e've 11 A nd w hat I'm going to do is I'll ju st write: 12 actu ally seen it in th e ore itself; correct? 12 trem olite in surrounding ro ck an d talc ore. 13 A Yeah. 13 Is that accurate, sir? 14 Q The talc ore? 14 A Yes. 15 A Yeah. 15 Q Okay. A ll right. 16 Q Right. 16 A nd now we have, from September 25, this is a 17 A A nd ProfP ooley describes it as crystal 17 m em o to the file from a m eeting that Johnson & Johnson 18 trem olite. 18 had w ith the FD A ; right? 19 Q Right. 19 A Yes. 20 A Yeah. 20 Q From Septem ber 21,'72. 21 Q A nd long, needle-like inclusions; correct? 21 Dow n above the bottom paragraph, just for 22 A W here did you read that? 22 som e context, it says: 23 Q That was one w e --you and I covered. 23 "The m eeting was started on tim e and we were 24 L et m e see i f I can fin d it again ... 24 asked to present our data. The data w ere presented by 25 It w as for 141. It w as the face w here it 25 our consultants in the order set up by Drs Shelley and Page 323 Page 325 1 said "good specim en". So I ju st have to find that 1 G oudie in a m eeting on Septem ber 20 as follow s ..." 2 a g a i n ... 2 A nd so they actually have Pooley at the FDA; 3 Yeah. Page 132. 3 right? 4 A Thank you. 4 A Yeah. 5 Q I don't rem em ber w hat I said, but w hat he says 5 Q Okay. 6 is: 6 It says: 7 "Contain long prism atic inclusions o f 7 "Dr Pooley review ed in detail his 8 trem olite". 8 com prehensive exam ination o f the Italian mine, showing 9 R ig h t? 9 it contains no deposits o f chrysotile asbestos and very 10 A That's right, yeah. 10 m inor am ounts o f trem olite". 11 Q Okay. Right. 11 R ig h t? 12 A Prism atic --m y understanding o f prism atic 12 A That is correct. 13 trem olite is non-asbestos trem olite. 13 Q So I'm ju st going to w rite here under the same 14 Q Okay. 14 entry -- this is 9.21 - Pooley reiterates trem olite to 15 If it -- if it becom es a fiber, if it is a 15 the FD A. 16 fib er o f trem olite, it is asbestos; correct? 16 A Yeah. 17 A It could be, yes. 17 Q Okay? 18 Q Okay. 18 A U sing the term "prismatic trem olite". 19 A Y eah, but in this case it's prism atic. 19 Q W ell, he ju st says: m inor am ount o f trem olite 20 Q H ow does --how does Johnson & Johnson define 20 in the Italian m ine? 21 "fiber"? 21 A Yeah, but in the report that we just 22 A I've n ot seen a definition o f "fiber" in 22 reviewed -- 23 Johnson & Johnson. 24 The only definitions that the com pany has 23 Q Yeah? 24 A --55, he uses the w ord "prismatic". 25 around talc quality purity relate to absence o f 25 Q G o to the next page, please. 82 (Pages 322 - 325) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 326 Page 328 1 Now, D r Lewin is there; right? 1 Q Okay. 2 A Yes. 2 So this is to D r RA Fuller. Do you know what 3 Q Okay. 3 his job was? 4 But, actually, before we get to Lewin, w e can 4 A I think he w as a senior research fellow. 5 see that D r Brown and D r Buerger have spoken on behalf 5 Q Okay. 6 o f J& J; right? 6 A Yes. 7 A Yes, they've spoken on --w ith their results, 7 Q This is January 29,73. 8 yeah. 8 It says: 9 Q Right. 9 "M r Stites told me on Friday that CTFA 10 T hey're consultants o f Johnson & Johnson at 10 received inquiries from a M r Spivak, a W all Street 11 th is point? 11 Journal reporter, w h o to ld th em th at F D A is about to 12 A T hey are. 12 issue regulations governing asbestos in talc and asked 13 Q Right. 13 th em w h a t ... industry [is] d o in g a b o u t it". 14 M r Caneer, he's a consultant to J&J; right? 14 Now , as general context to all o f this, the 15 A Yes. 15 F D A w as involved in try in g to figure o ut w h eth er o r n o t 16 Q M cCrone is as well? 16 there w as an asbestos problem w ith consum er talcs; 17 A Yes. 17 right? 18 Q Ian Stew art is as well? 18 A They were, yes. 19 A Yes. 19 Q Okay. 20 Q So w e get to D r Lewin, and at the bottom 20 A nd industry w as responding to the FDA on 21 they're talking about chrysotile and he said --it 21 those issues; correct? 22 says: 22 A They were and they were sharing the results 23 "He proposed a theory that chrysotile w as in 23 w ith FD A , as we've ju st seen. 24 the process o f being form ed inside the talc platelets 24 Q T h at's right. 25 in a new form. Drs Pooley and Hildick-Sm ith pointed 25 In fact, the FD A proposed regulating asbestos Page 327 Page 329 1 out that only fibrous chrysotile is implicated in lung 1 in talc; correct? 2 problem s. D r Lew in had no comment". 2 A Y es, I believe that's the case. 3 Is there any other type o f chrysotile other 3 Q Okay. 4 than fibrous? 4 A nd it was the position o f Johnson & Johnson 5 A I'm not aware that there is, but yeah. 5 and the CTFA that the FDA should not regulate asbestos 6 Q A ll right. 6 in talc and that the industry w ould self-regulate; 7 Okay. Y ou can set that aside. 7 correct? 8 This w ill be Exhibit 57. 8 A A nd that's been the position o f the cosm etic 9 (Exhibit 57 m arked for identification) 9 industry for generations. 10 Okay. This is from N ashed to Fuller. 10 Q In fact, even though w e're seeing 11 N ashed is pretty involved in all this stuff; 11 correspondence w ith the F D A , th e F D A does n ot regulate 12 right? 12 cosm etics outside o f co lo r additives; isn't th at true? 13 A Y eah, yeah. I believe he's one o f the 13 A FD A has a broad responsibility to ensure 14 scientists at the time. 14 cosm etics are safe, and particularly in the case o f 15 Q Y eah, and he's a doctor; right? 15 talc, th ey've tak en th a t responsibility v ery seriously. 16 A I think he had a PhD, yeah. 16 They've done their ow n independent analyses 17 Q A ll right. 17 o f products on the U S m arket, certainly in the '70s and 18 Do you have a PhD? 18 again I th in k it w as about 2009. 19 A Ido. 19 So they do take it seriously, even though 20 Q Okay. 20 they m ay not form ally have a regulation. 21 A nd at no tim e in all these m em os, especially 21 B ut they've got a broad, overarching 22 to all the people that these are to, does anyone pull 22 responsibility to ensure the consum er gets a safe 23 N ashed o ff this and say you're doing anything wrong, do 23 product. 24 they? 24 Q A nd that is a good answ er to the question, "Do 25 A I'm not aw are o f that. 25 they take it seriously?" 83 (Pages 326 - 329) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 330 1 But that's not the question I asked. 1 XRD - Page 332 2 The question I asked was: do they regulate 2 A Yeah. 3 cosm etics outside o f color additives? 3 Q --at least w hat he's telling the FD A here is 4 A There's no form al regulation, no. 4 that 1 per cent isn't detectable; right? 5 Q Okay. A ll right. 5 A Yeah. 6 A nd companies are not --under no obligation 6 Q Okay. 7 to provide inform ation to the FD A. I f they do so, it's 7 A I believe that at the tim e, yeah. 8 because they volunteer to do so; correct? 8 Q M eaning that, if you have a lot o f talc or you 9 A That's -- that's been the case for decades. 9 have a talc product and you use XRD on it to see if 10 Q W ell, forever, as far as the FDA goes; right? 10 there is asbestos present, i f the am ount o f asbestos 11 A Yes, yes. 11 p re sen t is less th an 1 p e r cen t a n d th at's y o u r lim it 12 Q Okay. A ll right. 12 o f detection, you're n ot going to see it; right? 13 So D r N ashed reports: 13 A Yeah. 14 "Today I called M r W enninger, Chief, 14 Q Okay. 15 C osm etics B r a n c h ..." 15 A ll right, sir. Y ou can set that aside. 16 A nd that's at the FD A; correct? 16 M S FROST: Are you doing okay? 17 A Yes, correct. 17 T H E W ITN ESS: I'm fine, yeah. 18 Q Okay: 18 M R PANATIER: Y ou all right? 19 "... w ho reports to D r W eissler. I asked him 19 TH E W ITN ESS: H ow are w e doing? Y eah, we're 20 i f FD A is about to issue talc/asbestos regulations. He 21 said to the b e st o f h is know ledge, h is records show 20 okay. 21 M R PA NATIER: Okay. All right. 22 that they plan on having a regulation written by M arch 22 TH E W ITNESS: A nother hour yet. 23 19,1973. How ever, he w ill confirm this inform ation to 23 M R PANATIER: This will be Exhibit 58. 24 m e. I told him that it is m y understanding that D r 24 (Exhibit 58 m arked for identification) 25 Lew in's report w ill also be released at that tim e and 25 Q So this is Colorado School o f Mines, Page 331 Page 333 1 that our latest inform ation from D r Schaffher is that 1 February 26,1973, and they are reporting to Bill 2 D r Lewis found J& J products to be freed o f asbestos 2 Ashton; right? 3 with the exception o f one m edicated pow der sam ple whicl 3 A Yes. 4 show ed 'traces o f asbestos'. I said that traces o f 4 Q N ow , w hat w as B ill A shton's title? 5 asbestos m eans that it is probably less than 1%, 5 A He was -- he had one job role that was to be 6 i.e., not detectable by x-ray". 6 essentially head o f talc, to know everything about 7 Okay. First o f all, did I read that right? 7 talc. 8 A You read that correctly, yes. 8 He was a senior scientist and he was what you 9 Q Okay. 9 m ight call M r Talc. 10 T hen o ff the side there's a handw ritten note. 10 Q He was? 11 It's kind o f h a rd to read, b u t I th in k y o u c an figure 11 A H e w as the point person for talc. 12 it out. It says: 12 Q A nd at one point --I think w e're going to see 13 "Reports we said traces o f trem olite". 13 a do cu m en t - b ut at one po in t th ere 's a com pany 14 Do you agree w ith m y interpretation o f the 14 directive to funnel everything through Ashton; right? 15 h andw riting? 15 A Yeah. 16 A I think that's w hat it says, yeah. 16 Q Yeah. Okay. 17 Q Okay. 17 So here's the first tim e w e've seen - well, 18 So perhaps he m ight have said traces of 18 w e've seen his nam e before, b ut here h e is w ith 19 trem olite, in stead o f asbestos, b u t he w rote "traces o f 19 C olorado School o f M ines reporting to him , and it says: 20 asbestos"; right? 20 "In compliance with your request, 21 A Y eah, that's w hat he w rote, yes. 21 m ineralogical studies w ere m ade on the follow ing 22 Q Okay. 23 W hen w e get down to the m ethods that are 24 being used to detect asbestos in talc, w hat D r Nashed 22 ta lc [s ]..." 23 A nd it's different names. 24 30-71, 30-B-71, et cetera, et cetera. 25 says is that, if you're going to use x-ray diffraction, 25 Okay. Now, do you know the source o f these 84 (Pages 330 - 333) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 334 Page 336 1 talcs, sir? 1 32-71-S, serpentine --I'm ju st going to put "serp 2 A I don't, no. B ut I do know that I w orked -- 2 chrysotile(?) question mark". 3 B ill Ashton reported to me back in the 1990s and I know 3 A Yeah. Maybe. Yeah. 4 that he regularly, even then, w as getting talc samples 4 Q Is that okay if I put a question mark? 5 from m ining companies all over the world. 5 A Yes. 6 Q Okay. 6 Q Okay. 7 A A nd he w ould maybe have them evaluated. 7 Right. So that's 73. 8 B ut I don't know w here these cam e from or 8 You can set that aside, or you can look at 9 w hat they are. 9 it, as long as you wish. 10 Q I think w e'll see, and I'm going to w rite them 10 A It's interesting, yeah. 11 o n the board, b ecause I th in k w e're g oing to see th at 11 Q It is all very interesting. I'll give you 12 th ese designations ty pically w ere the W in d so r m ine 12 that. 13 w eek ly sam ples, o r periodic sam ples, the w a y th at those 13 Okay, 111. This w ill be Exhibit 59. 14 are w ritten. 14 (Exhibit 59 m arked for identification) 15 So I'm going to w rite a few o f those down, 15 This is - the m em o is called 16 ju s t so w e c an com pare th em for future. B u t w h at w e'll 16 D ispersion-S taining E xam ination o f R etained S am ples o f 17 d o n o w is w e'll leave it am biguous. 17 Johnson's B aby Pow der - P roject N o. 503. 18 W hat w e have is February 26, '73, and I'll 18 N ow , retained sam ples. It w as J& J's policy 19 w rite the sam ples here. W e have 30-71-S, 30-B -71-S, 19 to retain for at least a certain am ount o f tim e 20 30-C-71-S and34-71-S. 20 representative sam ples o f its products; correct? 21 Okay? 21 A Yes. 22 A Yeah. 22 Q Right. 23 Q A nd then we have results for each one. 23 So if something came up, it could go back and 24 N ow , these were x-ray diffraction and 24 check those sam ples? 25 m icroscopic studies; correct? 25 A Yeah, and that's - that's current practice Page 335 Page 337 1 A Yes. 1 across the w hole industry with lotions, shampoos, you 2 Q Right. Okay. 2 keep a retain in case anyone has a question. 3 So they're using the x-ray and a m icroscope 3 Q Yeah. 4 to see w hat's in each o f these samples; correct? 4 A Usually for a few years. 5 A Correct, yes. 5 Q So this is April 19,1973, and this is from 6 Q So in 30-71-S, Colorado School o f M ines reports 6 D avid Hamer. D o you know who that is? 7 trace o f trem olite actinolite; right? 7 A N o, I don't. 8 A Yes. 8 Q Okay. 9 Q In 30-B-71-S, again, another trace o f trem olite 9 A nd by the way, down at the bottom it gives 10 actinolite; right? 10 us the dates o f the retained sam ples, '72 and '73; 11 A Yeah. 11 right? 12 Q In 30-C-71-S, doesn't report finding any 12 A Yeah. 13 am phibole m inerals; right? 13 Q Four sam ples from the years '72 and '73. 14 A N o, that's correct. 14 A Yeah. 15 Q In 32-71-S, slight trace o f anthophyllite; 15 Q A nd there's again a lot o f cc's, but they're at 16 right? 16 the top on this one; right? 17 A Yeah, followed by a question mark. 17 A Yes. 18 Q Right. Okay. Y ou're correct. 18 Q Looks like nine cc's. So nine other people got 19 So w e're going to do: trace anthophyllite(?), 19 this; right? 20 question m ark. Okay. 20 A Yes. 21 Then it says 32-71-S is suspected to contain 21 Q Including Ashton; right? 22 a very m inor amount o f serpentine w hich may be 22 A Yeah. 23 chrysotile; right? 23 Q A pril 19, '73. 24 A That's w hat it says. 24 A nd w hat it says here is: 25 Q So that one - - 1 have to write that one down: 25 "T w enty-five sam ples o f JO H N S O N 'S ... B aby 85 (Pages 334 - 337) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 338 1 Pow der representing retained samples from both ESDP 1 that? Page 340 2 ..." 2 A Yes. 3 W hat's that? 3 Q That is eight days after the memo we just 4 A It stands for the Eastern Surgical Dressings 4 looked at; right? 5 Plant, w hich was in N orth Brunswick, N ew Jersey. 5 A Yeah. 6 Q "... and Chicago facilities w ere exam ined 6 Q A nd I believe this is the sam e four samples. 7 m icroscopically by the Dispersion-Staining technique 7 I'll ju s t double ch eck ... 8 for the presence o f trem olite. Four o f these samples 9 If 8 A It is. 9 Q It is. Okay. 10 A nd then it's got a footnote saying w hich 10 A It is, yeah. 11 ones: 11 Q A ll right. 12 "... are suspected o f containing trem olite 12 So it's the sam e four sam ples that w e ju st - 13 b a se d on the finding o f one o r tw o 'fibers' p e r sam ple 13 y o u a n d I ju s t lo o k ed at. 14 w hich satisfy the color/m oiphology criteria". 14 A nd w hat it says here is M icroscopic 15 So four o f 25 Johnson & Johnson Baby Powder 15 E x am ination o f Jo hnson's B ab y P ow der fo r am phibole 16 sam ples h av e trem o lite, an d I'll p u t it in quotes like 16 (trem olite-actinolite). It's g ot the sam e lot num bers. 17 h e does "fibers"; is th at right? 17 It says: 18 A W ell, it actually says "suspected o f'. 18 "Petrographic optical m icroscopy revealed 19 M S FRAZIER: G ot disconnected again. 19 'trace' am ounts o f am phibole in each o f the above 20 BY M R PANATIER: 20 samples". 21 Q That's fine. I'll p ut "(suspected)" in 21 So that's been confirm ed that they are 22 parenthesis; is that okay? 22 amphibole; correct? 23 A Yeah. 23 A Y eah, that's w hat it says, yes. 24 M S FRAZIER: Do you w ant to stop for just a 24 Q Okay. All right. 25 second? They got disconnected on the phone one more 25 I ju st want to m ake sure w e have this Page 339 1 time. 1 2 M R PA N A TIER: That's fine. That's fine. I 2 3 ju st w anted to finish that little tidbit. 3 4 Okay. Let's go off. 4 5 (O ff the record 5:19 pm) 5 6 (On the record at 5:21 pm ) 6 7 BY M R PANATIER: 7 8 Q Okay. 8 9 So they say w e're not sure about these 9 10 results; right? 10 11 A Yeah. In fact, the very last paragraph says: 11 12 "The Dispersion-Staining m ethod is by no 12 13 m eans in f a llib le ..." 13 14 D escribed as: 14 15 "... an indefinite m ethod for chrysotile or 15 16 tre m o lite ..." 16 17 Q Right. 17 18 A "... results should be considered as 18 19 prelim inary screening rather than definitive analysis". 19 20 Q Right. Okay. 20 21 So let's look at m ore analysis. They 21 22 actually do analyze those more. 22 23 This w ill be Exhibit 60. 23 24 (Exhibit 60 m arked for identification) 24 25 So this is from A pril 27 o f '73. C an you see 25 Page 341 accurate. So on 4.27, confirm am phibole in four sam ples, and then it says: "B ased on the num bers o f particles scanned, w e e s tim a te [th e ] 'tr a c e ' a m o u n ts to b e .001 to .1 ... b y w eight". R ight? A Yes. Q T h en let's go to th e d escrip tio n o f the p a rtic le s. It says: "Shape: P rism atic, colum nar, parallel-sided rods. Size: F rom 20 x 4 m icrons to 200 x 30 m icrons". R ight? A Y es, th at's w h a t it says. Q So size. S o I'm g o in g to w rite "size". I'll do it in a d ifferen t co lo r so w e can change this up. Size: 20 x 4 is a 5 -to -l aspect ratio; right? A Yes. Q A nd 2 0 x 3 0 ? C an you do that? Is that about A T h at's a 6 -to -l. 86 (Pages 338 - 341) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 342 Page 344 1 Q 6-to-l? 1 Q So Johnson & Johnson internally defines fiber 2 A G ive or take, yes. 2 as an elongated particle with parallel sides and an 3 Q Okay. 3 aspect ration o f 3:1? 4 It says: 4 A They do, yes. 5 "The optical properties o f the particles are 5 Q A nd I m ean --I assum e that means at least 3:1? 6 closer to actinolite than trem olite". 6 A Yes. 7 R ight? 7 Q Right. Okay. 8 A T h at's w h a t it says, yes. 8 So in the docum ent w e ju st looked at, w e have 9 Q O kay. Y o u can set th at aside, sir. 9 four samples that have parallel sided particles and 10 S o let's talk a little b it ab o u t h o w Jo h n so n 10 aspect ratios o f 5:1 to 6:1. 11 & J o h n s o n d e f in e s a s b e s to s in te r n a lly ; o k a y ? 11 U nder Johnson & Johnson's ow n definition o f 12 W hat is TM 7024? 12 fiber, these are fibers; correct? 13 A T M s ta n d s f o r t e s t m e th o d . I c a n 't in s ta n tly 13 A They are, yes. 14 rem em ber w hich one that related to ~ 14 Q A ll right, sir. Y ou can set that aside. 15 Q I believe - 15 Okay. Here is the next one. This is Exhibit 16 A -- o f w hich there are m any. 16 62. 17 Q Sure. 17 (Exhibit 62 m arked for identification) 18 I b e lie v e it's th e T E M test m ethod. 18 Right, sir. June 4 ,1973. This is from 19 A Okay. 19 Shelley to seven different people, including A shton, 20 Q F o r asbestiform m inerals. 20 N ashed, G oudie, H ildick-Sm ith, Fuller, people we've 21 (E xhibit 61 m arked for identification) 21 seen before; right? 22 H ere's y o u r copy. 22 A Sure. 23 A Thank you. 23 Q A nd it says: 24 Q N ow , this is from 1995. 24 "Dr Hildick-Sm ith and I m et with our English 25 D o y o u re m e m b e r w h e n T M 7 0 2 4 w as issu ed ' 25 cohorts to discuss the talc program. M uch o f the Page 343 Page 345 1 A W ell, on here it says 1995. 1 discussion is outlined in the attached report. 2 Q W ell, that's --okay. A ll right. 2 One important point which was covered was 3 A I m ean, th is is revision 1. So there w o u ld 3 that the B ritish T oilet Preparations Federation is 4 have been an earlier one. 4 drafting specifications for the analysis of'asbestos1 5 Q Yeah. 5 in talc. Their methods involve concentration 6 Do you know w hen that earlier one started? 6 techniques and w ill therefore be m uch more sensitive 7 A I don't. N o, I don't. 7 than our proposed specifications". 8 Q So let's look at definition o f a fiber; okay? 8 N ow , are you conversant on w hat these 9 I f you go to page 7 o f 9 at the bottom --w ell, there's 9 concentration techniques are? 10 like three differen t p ag e num bers on there. It's the 10 A No. 11 o n e th at is 5038. 11 Q Okay. 12 A Yeah. 12 A 197 3 ,1 w as not involved. 13 Q Okay. 13 Q Okay. 14 U nder TEM Analysis, it says: 14 W ell, now, having reviewed the documents, 15 "D efinition o f a f ib e r ..." 15 yo u 're aw are th at P ooley specifically w as proposing a 16 R ig h t? 16 w ay to be able to pull o ut at least a percentage o f the 17 A Yes. 17 talc p articles to then be ab le to concentrate it 18 Q "An elongated particle with parallel sides and 18 dow n -- 19 a n aspect ratio K 3 :l ..." 19 A Yes. 20 That m eans three tim es longer than it is 20 Q --and see other m inerals that were present; 21 w ide; right? 21 right? 22 A Yes. 22 A Yes, yes. 23 Q The definition em ployed m ay vary w ith the needs 23 Q A nd so that's w hat they're talking about here; 24 o f the client; okay? 24 correct? 25 A Yes. 25 A Yeah. 87 (Pages 342 - 345) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 346 1 Q All right. 1 2 "Apparently the Italian 00000 talc passed 2 3 this test, and o f course Vermont talc does too for 3 4 chrysotile." 4 5 A Yeah. 5 6 Q "However, I expressed m y concern that Vermont 6 7 talc m ay occasionally show traces o f trem olite by this 7 8 procedure." 8 9 Right? So Shelley is saying if Pooley uses 9 10 th e concentration technique, w e m ig h t actu ally see the 10 11 trem olite; right? In the V erm o n t talc; right? 11 12 A That's w hat he's suggesting. 12 13 Q Okay. 13 14 "I pointed out to Bob D ean that there w as no 14 15 specific evidence th at traces o f trem olite in talc 15 16 p o sed any hazard, rather th at the evidence ind icated no 16 17 toxic problem ". 17 18 Now, what research by June 4,1973, had 18 19 Jo hnson & Johnson done to a ssess the h azard o f 19 20 trem olite asbestos inhaled by children? 20 21 A Right. Okay. Y ou've used the w ord trem olite 21 22 asbestos. 22 23 Q I have. 23 24 A M y understanding is that the trem olite, if it 24 25 w ere found, is not asbestiform . It's in the m assive or 25 asbestos or not?" Page 348 A I'v e n o t seen a m em o. Q Okay. A T h ere m a y w e ll b e o n e, b u t I'v e n o t seen it. Q A ll right. "B ob agreed to review the trem olite aspects w ith T PF, and hopefully w ill be able to lim it the analytical m ethod to chrysotile". D o you see that? A Y eah , th at's w h at h e's saying. Q Okay. So here Shelley at Johnson & Johnson - this is a Johnson & Johnson em ployee; right? A Yeah. Q H e 's s a y in g th a t, w e ll, P o o le y 's c o n c e n tr a tio n m eth o d d o esn 't see chrysotile in V erm o n t o r Italian. It m ay show traces o f trem olite; right? A It may. Q So he said: " ... h o p e f u ll y ... [w e'll] b e a b le to lim it th e ... m e th o d to c h ry so tile ". R ight? A Yeah. Q T he reason for doing so is because if you include trem olite, y ou m ight see it; right? Page 347 Page 349 1 prism atic crystalline form. 1 A Y ou'll still see it w hether you deliberately 2 Q Okay. 2 intend to include it or not. 3 W ell, the ones that w e just looked at from 3 A s w e've seen, or claim to see in so m any o f 4 A pril o f '73, w hich is tw o m onths before this, m eet 4 these analyses, if trem olite's there, the existing 5 Johnson & Johnson's definition o f a fiber; correct? 5 m ethods will pick it up. 6 A O f a fiber, yes. 6 Y ou don't need to concentrate it to pick it 7 Q Right. 7 up. 8 A B ut not asbestos fiber. 8 Q W ell, w hat if it's below the lim it o f 9 Q W ell, they're am phiboles. Isa m p h ib o le a 9 detection, sir? That's the w hole point. 10 necessaty prerequisite to asbestos, if you're not 10 A W ell, the lim it o f detection, let's say it's 11 talk in g ab o u t chrysotile? 11 .0001 p e r cent, the essence o f science is th at i f y o u 12 A No, no. Y ou can have amphibole m aterials that 12 do a study once, y ou get a result; i f you do it ten 13 are n o t asbestos. 13 tim es, y o u r assurance o f getting the finding o r not 14 Q B ut listen to m y question. 14 finding is increased ten-fold. I f you do it a hundred 15 Is having amphibole --excluding chrysotile 15 tim es an d y o u can b e p retty sure th at th at resu lt will 16 fo r a second, y o u hav e to have an am phibole befo re y o u 16 reflect the equivalent o f concentrating. It's another 17 can have asbestos? 17 w ay o f looking at it. 18 A Yes. 18 Statistically, you do a test a certain num ber 19 Q O kay. T hat's w h a t I'm asking. 19 o f tim es; the m ore yo u do it, the higher your level o f 20 A nd w e have that there in '73; correct? 20 assurance that w hat you've got is w hat you're going to 21 A Y ou have, but it's not confirm ed it was 21 find. 22 asbestos. 22 Q A couple o f issues with that. 23 Q By the way, did anybody write back --did you 23 First o f all is, since the m ines change, 24 ever see anybody write back to the A pril 19 or 27 m em o 24 w hat's in the actual ore com ing out changes; correct? 25 that w e ju st talked about where they said, "W ell, is it 25 A That's correct. 88 (Pages 346 - 349) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 1 Q Okay. Page 350 1 Page 352 A B ecause --there is a reason, and the reason is 2 And, as sources change, obviously w hat's in 2 that, in parallel, w e know the industry was working on 3 the talc changes; true? 3 the C T F A J4 test m ethod, w hich w ould have given you th< 4 A Yes. 5 Q Okay. 4 same result as going through this hypothesis o f 5 concentration. 6 A nd if w e're talking about lim it o f 6 It w as a hypothesis and it's not been proven. 7 detection, right --w e'll go back to m y m agnifying 7 Q J4 w asn't passed for three m ore years? 8 glass exam ple, okay, because it's easy to understand -- 8 A Correct, but Johnson & Johnson was using it 9 if I look a hundred, a thousand, a m illion tim es at my 9 in -- at this point in time. 10 skin w ith that m agnifying glass, I am never going to 10 '7 3 ,7 4 , it w as being used within J&J. 11 see bacteria; right? 11 Q I don't agree w ith you, but we'll talk about 12 A Correct. 12 w hen they started using it. 13 Q Never, ever, ever. 13 If they were using it already, I expect he 14 A Yeah. 14 w ould have m entioned it here. 15 Q It's ju st not going to happen. 15 B ut here's w hat w e have: w e have a guy saying 16 A Yeah. 16 this m ethod concentrates the ability --this 17 Q That is not scientifically reliable because I 17 concentration m ethod low ers the lim it o f detection; 18 am n ot usin g a m eth o d th at is sensitive enough; right? 18 right? 19 A Correct. 19 A That's w hat he's saying, yes. 20 Q Okay. 20 Q Right? 21 W hen w e get to the issue o f concentrating the 21 A nd when w e apply it to Vermont, we see 22 talc sam ples, w hat they are trying to do is to lower 22 trem olite. So let's lim it it to chrysotile? 23 the lim it o f detection for am phibole m inerals; correct? 23 A Yeah, but, equally, I refute by saying that he 24 A That is a suggestion o f the value o f 24 claim s already to be finding trem olite in Verm ont talc. 25 concentrating. 25 Q Yeah. Page 351 Page 353 1 B ut in parallel w ith this, w e're very aware 1 A Y ou've show n m e som e results earlier, so you 2 that the CTFA specification was being worked up. In 2 don't need to concentrate it. 3 fact, Johnson & Johnson were already pretty well using 3 Q W hat about the fact that the ore changes, sir? 4 it, so that you use other test m ethods. 4 Y ou have to continually m onitor it; right? 5 A nd by using two or three additional test 5 A A nd certainly part o f the requirem ent o f the 6 m ethods, you would have achieved the same result as 6 m ine audit is that there's a regular audit o f the mine, 7 w hether you had concentrated it and analyzed it by 7 as w ell as the final product. 8 sim ple m icroscope, as these appear to be. 8 Q A nd they've com e up w ith a w ay o f auditing it 9 So the alternative w as to use a range o f more 9 at a low er sensitivity to see it if it is there. 10 sensitive test m ethods o th er th an concentration. 10 A nd Johnson & Johnson in this m em o is saying: 11 Q I want to talk to you about this document. 11 let's n o t do it fo r trem olite b ecause w e can see it. 12 A Yeah. 12 A A gain, I think that's a m isinterpretation. I 13 Q I don't w hat to talk to you about w hat you 13 th in k th e m ine w as alread y using a range o f 14 th in k w as g o in g o n outside o f th is docum ent, b ecause I 14 sophisticated tests, x -ray diffraction, optical 15 w a n t to ta lk to y o u about th is ex change betw een th ese 15 m icroscopy, transm ission electron m icroscopy, w hich 16 people. 16 w ould pick it up if it w ere there. 17 A nd w hat Shelley says is: w e w ant to lim it 17 Q Okay. 18 th e m eth o d to chrysotile, a n d the reaso n is b ecause 18 A So- 19 w h e n w e a p p ly it to o u r V erm ont talc, w e find 19 Q Does he say that? 20 tremolite; right? 20 A N o ,b u t- 21 A W ell, that's w hat he's saying. 21 Q Does he say the reason -- 22 Q That is w hat he's saying? 22 A You know -- 23 A Yeah, yeah. 23 Q --w e shouldn't do it --hold on let m e finish 24 Q And there could be no good reason for doing 24 the question. 25 that, could there be? 25 D oes he say the reason w e shouldn't do it is 89 (Pages 350 - 353) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 1 because we already have this covered? Page 354 1 A Yes. Page 356 2 H e doesn't say that at all, does he? 2 Q A nd it is from AM Frank; correct? 3 A N o, but m aybe he didn't --w asn't aware. 3 A Yeah. 4 I don't know . I'm not going to speak for 4 Q It's to M r G Lee; right? 5 som eone w ho's probably long dead. 5 A Yes. 6 Q Okay. 6 Q A nd w ho's G Lee? 7 W ell, sir, you are offering a plethora o f 7 A He was a scientist in our research and 8 reasons w hy som eone m ight say w hat he said, but -- 8 development in Johnson & Johnson. George Lee. 9 A lam . 9 Q Okay. 10 Q - right - but you don't actually have any 10 H e says at the top: 11 evidence th at th at is w h y he said it; correct? 11 "To form alize the audit testing currently 12 A No, I don't know w hat was in his m ind w hen he 12 perform ed to ensure the absence o f asbestos in W indsor 13 said this. 13 66 T a lc ..." 14 Q Right. Okay. 14 That's the talc that w as going into all the 15 W e only have his words; right? 15 products; right? 16 A W e have his words, yeah. 16 A Sure. 17 Q A nd w e only have, if w e're lucky enough to have 17 Q "... the follow protocol is currently being 18 it, w h a t som eone else w rote b ack to h im i f th ey did; 18 u s e d ..." 19 right? 19 A nd it has the scope here, yada yada. 20 A Yes. 20 B ut they define asbestos below: 21 Q Okay. 21 "Asbestos is defined to be the fibrous 22 So what w e have here is we have the 22 serpentine, c h ry so tile ..." 23 opportunity for Johnson & Johnson to be able to 23 Right. So the fibrous serpentine, 24 concentrate a sam ple and look for chrysotile and 24 chrysotile: 25 trem olite, and the Johnson & Johnson guy says: let's 25 "... and the fibrous form s o f the am phibole Page 355 Page 357 1 ju st do chrysotile because w hen w e apply it to 1 group as represented by amosite, anthophyllite, 2 trem olite, w e see it. 2 crocidolite, trem olite asbestos and actinolite". 3 Correct? 3 R ig h t? 4 A That's w hat he's saying. 4 A That' the definition, yeah. 5 Q Okay. 5 Q Okay. 6 A A nd I offered an explanation that if we're 6 So if it's a fiber and it's am phibole, it's 7 already using a series o f other tests w hich w ould pick 7 asbestos; right? 8 up trem olite if it were present, w hy w ould you use 8 A B y that definition, yes. 9 another method? 9 Q Okay. 10 Q A nd he doesn't m ention any other tests at all? 10 A nd we know how Johnson & Johnson defines 11 A H e's not m entioned it, no. 11 fiber. T h ey define it as parallel sides 3:1 or 12 Q Okay. Y ou can set that aside, Sir. 12 greater; right? 13 This w ill be 64. 13 A B ack in w henever that w as, '95. 14 MS FROST: 64 or 63? 14 Q T hat w a s '95; right? 15 M R PA NATIER: 63, like I said. 15 A Yes, yes. 16 (Exhibit 63 m arked for identification) 16 Q A nd here in '77, they're ju st saying i f it's 17 A ll right. 17 fibrous? 18 Folks on the phone, can you guys please make 18 A Yes. 19 sure th at y o u r s tu ff is m uted. 19 Q B ut they don't tell us w hat they m ean by fiber? 20 Q A ll right. 20 A T hey don't, no. 21 The reason I am bringing up this document, 21 Q B ut betw een the tw o documents, certainly they 22 even though it's a little bit out o f place in tim e, is 22 didn't advocate a low er aspect ratio in the '70s than 23 b ecau se w e 've b een talk in g a b o u t h o w Jo h n so n & Johnson 23 3:1, d id they? 24 defines asbestos; okay? 24 A I'm n o t aw are o f that, no. 25 A nd here is a m em o from June 28,1 9 7 7 ; right? 25 Q Okay. 90 (Pages 354 - 357) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 358 Page 360 1 So betw een the two documents, we have both 1 (Exhibit 64 m arked for identification) 2 the definition o f fiber --3:1, parallel sides -- and 2 There you are. A ll right. 3 w e have the definition o f asbestos which is fibrous and 3 So this is from June 4 ,1973, Shelley to 4 the various m inerals; correct? 4 Rolle. 5 A Correct. 5 N ow , w e've seen Shelley a few tim es; right? 6 Q A ll right. 6 A Yeah. 7 Now, I actually have another question about 7 Q A nd this one actually has a received stamp for 8 this, w hich is, if you go down under Testing 8 D r Nashed; right? 9 Requirem ents w here it says Test M ethod, and it says. 9 A Yes. 10 "Characteristic: Fibrous Am phibole Forms, 10 Q C c'd were A shton, Goudie, N ashed and Petterson; 11 C T F A J4 -1 ..." 11 true? 12 N ow , that's 7 7 ? 12 A Yeah. 13 A Yes. 13 Q N ow , he's talking about the British Toilet 14 Q A nd w e know that J4 has been passed; correct? 14 Preparations Federation again; right? 15 A Yes, yes. 15 A Yeah. 16 Q "Serpentine Form s: TM 7019 ..." 16 Q D o you guys still have that here? 17 R ig h t? 17 A It's now called CTPA, w hich is the equivalent 18 A Yeah. 18 o fC T F A . 19 Q And: 19 Q Okay. 20 "A sbestiform M inerals (fibrous f o r m s ) ... 20 A S am e--sam e group, just changed the name. 21 7 0 24..." 21 Q A ll right. 22 TEM ; right? 22 So The B ritish Toilet Preparations Federation 23 A Yeah. 23 was the British equivalent o f the CTFA? 24 Q A nd it says the requirem ent is none detected? 24 A Correct. 25 A Yeah. 25 Q I understand. Page 359 Page 361 1 Q Right? 1 So it's not a governm ent agency? 2 W hich m eans you don't see any? 2 A No, no. 3 A Yes. 3 Q A ll right. 4 Q Right. 4 T hey are: 5 B ut for any test method, if your level o f 5 "... in the process o f drafting 6 detection is not absolute zero, you can never know 6 specifications on talc. These w ill involve density 7 w hether there's actually zero asbestos there; isn't 7 concentration techniques follow ed by x-ray analysis. 8 that true? 8 Fred Pooley has developed the m ethods and checked the 9 A It's true w ith an additional statem ent, and 9 Italian talc for chrysotile and other asbestos 10 that is, as w e said a little w hile ago, that w hen you 10 contam inants. H e found none; how ever, I am concerned 11 d o test m ethods an d test m ethodologies, i f you're 11 th at o u r V erm ont talc w ill from tim e to tim e show 12 dealing w ith p arts p e r b illio n o r parts p e r m illion, 12 traces o f trem olite". 13 y o u need to lo o k a t the overall trend. 13 N ow , that's the second tim e M r Shelley has 14 If you do it on a tw o-weekly basis, w hatever 14 said this? 15 th at m ay be, o r reg u lar sam pling, reg u lar auditing, yo u 15 A Yes. 16 develop a very high level o f confidence that i f it says 16 Q Right? That, using Fred Pooley's concentration 17 n o n -d etected a n d y o u d o n't fin d any w eek after w eek 17 techniques, they're going to see trem olite. 18 a fte r w eek, y o u r statistical level o f p robability is 18 A nd he's not saying here: w e've checked it, 19 su ch th at there ain 't none there. It's non-detected. 19 w e know it has trem olite, or w e're doing lots o f other 20 Q So long as the level o f sensitivity is 20 tests. 21 sufficient to detect w hat you're looking for; correct? 21 H e's saying: I'm concerned that the result 22 A Yes. 22 w ill be w e will see trem olite; right? 23 Q Okay. 23 A That's w hat he's saying. 24 You can set that aside, sir. 24 Q Okay. 25 This w ill be 64. 25 "In order to check this, please send samples 91 (Pages 358 - 361) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 362 Page 364 1 o f Verm ont talc from different batches directly to Fred 1 A He was --I believe he was M edical Director. 2 Pooley, w ith the request that he check for trem olite by 2 Q All right. 3 the proposed TPF method. I would suggest you send 3 A He was a medically qualified guy. 4 sam ples w hich w e recently ran, if you have enough." 4 Q Okay. 5 Blah, blah, blah. Last paragraph: 5 A He worked at baby products company. 6 "Also, Fred Pooley w ould like about 250 grams 6 Q All right. 7 o f our process on the talc so that he m ay study the 7 This is to M ortimer, Miller, Johnston and 8 rem oval o f trem olite. Please handle this". 8 Stolzer. 9 R ig h t? 9 Now, I believe M iller is with W indsor? 10 A Yeah. 10 A Yes. 11 Q So, one, this is Shelley reiterating that he's 11 Q Is he not? 12 con cern ed th a t P ooley's concentration technique is 12 A Yes, he was. 13 g o ing to sh o w th e trem olite th at he b elieves to be 13 Q All right. 14 there. 14 Here is all I w ant to get to. This is 15 And, tw o, they're going to send som e sam ples 15 June 6, '73, and this is tw o days after the m em o w e 16 to Pooley to see if he can study how to get it out; 16 ju s t saw; right? 17 rig ht? 17 And it says: 18 A Y eah. H e's suggesting that there m ay be 18 "Shelley reports that Pooley has found 19 trem o lite th ere an d th at P ooley's p rocess m ay pick it 19 actinolite in our V erm ont talc b y his concentrating 20 up. 20 technique. Italian talc[s], by the same technique, 21 Q Okay. 21 appears to be free o f amphiboles. I have sent the 22 A Yeah. 22 report --the report referred o f IW Sloan on to Roger 23 Q N ow , w e know from ju st the m ine sam pling that 23 M iller for their study". 24 there is trem olite in both the Italian and the Vermont 24 Did I read that right? 25 m ines; correct? 25 A You read that correctly, yes. Page 363 Page 365 1 A W e know there is trem olite -- 1 Q So here in - this is June 6, '73. 2 Q Okay. 2 R e p o r t... an d th e rep o rt is P oo ley found 3 A --w hich is in the --after so m any, m any 3 actinolite in the V erm ont talc; correct? 4 exam inations, is in the non-asbestos form . It's 4 A That's - that's w hat he states, yes. 5 prism atic form. 5 Q A nd by the way, the -- yeah, okay. 6 Q Right, and you and I are fighting over that, 6 N ow , they don't take issue in this memo. N ow 7 okay, because you have volunteered it m any tim es, and 7 w e have a follow up m em o to something Shelley has said, 8 I'm trying not to object to non-responsive, but w e are 8 but no one takes issue w ith the fact that w hat is being 9 going to talk about that. 9 reported actually happened; right? 10 N ext one is 123. 10 A Yeah. 11 V ID E O G R A P H E R : E xcu se m e, yo u 'v e g ot five 11 Q Right? 12 m inutes o f film tim e. 12 A nd no one is saying: yeah, w e don't need to 13 M R PA N A T IE R : O kay, an d th at w ill p ro bably be 13 do th is an yw ay b ecause w e already tested it; right? 14 it. 14 A Y eah, there's no response th is letter, i f 15 M S FROST: Perfect. 15 th at's w h a t yo u 're asking, yeah. 16 M R PA NATIER: A nd that w ill be it. Okay. 16 Q W ell, this is sort o f -- this is the follow up 17 Five more minutes, sir, and then you can 17 to Shelley tw o days earlier -- 18 fo rg et ab o u t m e for about 18 h ours o r so. 18 A Sure. 19 THE W ITNESS: I can never forget about you. 19 Q - - talking about it; right? 20 (Briefly off the record) 20 A Yeah. 21 M R PANATIER: This w ill be Exhibit 65. 21 Q Okay. Right. Y ou can set that aside, sir. 22 (Exhibit 65 m arked for identification) 22 T hree m inutes. O kay. I'm going to do it. 23 June 6, 1973. This is from D R Petterson. 23 124. This w ill be Exhibit 66. 24 N ow , I don't think I've asked you about w ho 24 (Exhibit 66 m arked for identification) 25 he was. W ho is he? 25 A ll right. This is the sam e day, June 6; 92 (Pages 362 - 365) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 366 Page 368 1 right? 1 INDEX 2 A Yeah. 2 PAGE 3 Q A nd this is from R obert Rolle, cc'ing a bunch 3 WITNESS: DR JOHN HOPKINS (Sworn)...... 4 o f people to Pooley, and he says: 4 Examination by MR PANATIER..................... 5 "[In th is shipm ent I'm sending y o u ] ... w ill 5 6 be 3 three-hundred gram samples o f production Vermont 6 7 Talc for your study to remove trem olite". EXHIBITS 8 R ig h t? 9 A Yeah. 10 Q So sam e day. J& J to Pooley: please study 11 rem o v al o f trem olite; right? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Okay. 14 B ecause if they couldn't figure out a w ay to 15 rem o v e it, th ey k n ew it w o u ld b e d etected b y his 16 concentration technique; correct? 17 A Yeah. 18 Q Okay. 19 A nd w h y rem ove it i f it's not a --i f it's 20 not a hazard? 21 A I don't know. It's probably not ideal, b u t-- 22 Q It's a good question; right? 23 A --the --as w e've said before, the reports 8 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 9 Exhibit 1... ..... Notice for Herford................... ...46 10 Exhibit 2... ..... Notice for Etheridge................. ....46 11 Exhibit 3... ..... Notice for Teuscher................. ....46 12 Exhibit 4... ..... Notice for Verdolotti................ ...46 13 Exhibit 5... ..... The Process for Qualification and 14 Approval of a new or alternate 15 Source of Cosmetic Talc 16 Bates JNJNL61 81120............... ...46 17 18 Exhibit 6 ... .....Email/Bates JNJNL61 101061 19 20 Exhibit 7... .....Talc: A Basic Review............... ..... 61 21 Bates JNJNL61_65669 22 23 Exhibit 8 ... .....Grantham Talc Comprehensive 24 fro m m any, m an y exam inations o f V erm ont talc indicated 24 Report/Bates JNJAZ55 8118.... ......64 25 that there w as not asbestos there or asbestiform 25 Page 367 Page 369 1 tremolite. 1 2 Q From their consultants; right? 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 3 A W ell, from independent experts, yeah. 3 Exhibit 9... ..... J&J memo to File Re Talc/ 4 Independent, surely? 4 Asbestos Meeting with 5 Y ou don't buy Princeton U niversity or you 5 Commissioner Schmidt, FDA 6 don't buy the U nited States Bureau o f M ines or the 6 Bates JNJMX68 17147............... ....76 7 Colorado School o f Mines. 7 Exhibit 10.. ......Memo from Shelley to Fuller 8 Q Okay. 8 Re: Talc 9 A Y ou ju st don't buy those people. 9 Bates JNJAZ55 4904.................. .105 10 Q A nd w e'll get to that tom orrow . 10 Exhibit 11.. ......Email from Telofski to Mann 11 B ut the bottom line is they sure are taking a 11 Bates JNJI4T5 4485.................... 124 12 lot o f trouble to try to get the trem olite out o f the 12 Exhibit 12.. ...... Memo from WH Steinberg to 13 talc, aren't they? 13 Hildick-Smith Re JBP Talc 14 A It's a research project. 14 Aspiration 15 Q Okay. 15 Bates JNJNL61 9898.................. .126 16 A These research guysoften do that kind o f those 16 Exhibit 13.. ......Johnson & Johnson Baby Powder 17 thing. T hey go o ff a little side alley and say, "Let's 17 Questions and Answers 18 exam ine this". 18 Bates JNJNL61 13947................ ..136 19 Q A nd at Johnson & Johnson, you could just do 19 Exhibit 14.. ......JAMA - Morris Fishbein MD 20 w hatever side projects you want? 20 No Bates.............................. 150 21 A It w asn't unusual. 21 Exhibit 15.. ......Payan Declaration of Hopkins 22 Q Okay. A ll right. 22 No Bates.............................. 152 23 Those are all the questions I have right now. 23 24 W e'll com e back tomorrow . 24 25 (W h ereu p o n th e d eposition w as ad jo u rn ed a t 5:50 p m ) 25 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. 718-983-1234 93 (Pages 366 - 369) A Veritext Company Page 370 Page 372 1 1 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 3 Exhibit 16... ...... Letter from John Hopkins to 3 Exhibit 33. ....... Memo from Russell to Ashton 4 Ian Phillipson (CTPA) 4 Re Microscopic examination 5 Re Talc Working Party 5 Museum Baby Powder samples 6 Bates JNJNL61 13746................ 158 6 Bates JNJNL61 266..................... 223 7 Exhibit 17... ...... Letter from Byers (US Public 7 Exhibit 34. ....... Memo from Russell Re Baby-Mate 8 Health Service) to Ashe (State 8 Bates JNJAZ55 11185................... 225 9 Of VT Dept Public Health) 9 Exhibit 35. ....... Memo from Ashton Re Metropolitan 10 Re mineral samples in VT 10 Talc Lot G 716 preliminary 11 Bates JNJMX68 17827................ 170 11 Evaluation 12 Exhibit 18... ...... Battelle 12 Bates JNJAZ55 12423................... 230 13 Bates JNJAZ55 1032................. 173 13 Exhibit 36......... Colorado School of Mines 14 Exhibit 19.......... Battelle 14 Research Institute Report 15 Bates JNJNL61 1489................. 175 15 Geology and Ore Reserves 16 Exhibit 20... ...... Battelle 16 Bates JNJAZ55 15127................... 233 17 Bates JNJAZ55 905.................. 179 17 Exhibit 37. ....... Colorado School of Mines 18 Exhibit 21.......... Battelle 18 Bates JNJAZ55 6061....................235 19 Bates JNJNL61 1341................. 184 19 Exhibit 38.. ....... Memo from Hopkins at Innovant 20 Exhibit 22.......... Letter from Smith (J&J) to 20 Research to Williams at Shook 21 Tangel Re Rome, Italy 21 Hardy for Blaes v J&J et al 22 March 5, 1959 trip 22 No Bates.............................. 239 23 Bates JNJAZ55 1114................. 188 23 Exhibit 39... ....... J&J memo to file 24 Exhibit 23.......... Battelle/Bates JNJAZ55 840......... .191 24 Bates JNJMX68 15772................... 242 25 25 Page 371 Page 373 1 1 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 3 Exhibit 24... ..... Battelle/Bates JNJNL61 1369........ ...196 3 Exhibit 40.. ..... Meeting with Dr Langer on 4 4 July 9 Concerning Analytical 5 Exhibit 25......... Battelle /Bates JNJAZ55 797......... ..198 5 Analysis of Talc 6 6 Bates JNJAZ55 5743.................... 250 7 Exhibit 26... ..... Battelle /Bates JNJAZ55 577.......... ..203 7 Exhibit 41.. ..... Letter from Nashed (J&J) to 8 8 Foster Re Talc/Asbestos 9 Exhibit 27......... Battelle/Bates JNJNL61 1480....... ...204 9 Bates JNJMX68 4646.................... 256 10 10 Exhibit 42........ Letter from Ashton to Caneer 11 Exhibit 28.... ..... Battelle/Bates JNJMX68 746........ ...206 11 Bates JNJMX68 7007.................... 260 12 12 Exhibit 43.. ..... Memo from Shelley to Sunberg 13 Exhibit 29.... ..... Battelle/Bates JNJMX68 758........ ...210 13 And Ashton 14 14 Bates JNJNL61 1526.................... 264 15 Exhibit 30.... ..... Battelle/Bates JNJAZ55 1014....... ...212 15 Exhibit 44.. ..... Report from Grieger (McCrone) 16 16 "from R. Rollo's files" 17 Exhibit 31.... ..... Letter from William Smith 17 Re Italian, Medicated 18 (Principal Geologist) to 18 Grantham Talc 19 Ashton (K&J) Re Petrographic 19 Bates JNJAZ55 8893.................... 266 20 Examination of VT talc 20 Exhibit 45.. ..... McCrone report to Windsor Re 21 Bates JNJAZ55 1013................. 218 21 Examination of talc samples 22 22 Bates JNJAZ55 5967.................... 275 23 Exhibit 32.......... Battelle /Bates JNJAZ55 18511..... ....221 23 Exhibit 46.. ...... Letter from Langer to Hildick-Smith 24 24 Bates JNJAZ5 5253..................... 280 25 25 94 (Pages 370 - 373) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 374 1 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 1 2 Exhibit 47. .......... J&J memo to file 2 3 Bates JNJNL61 1123................ 282 3 4 Exhibit 48. .......... Memo from Nashed to Dean 4 5 Bates JNJMX68 4624................ 287 5 6 Exhibit 49. .......... Memo and attachment from 6 7 DR Clare To J&J employees 7 8 Bates JNJNL61 16275, JNJMX68 4622.... ....288 8 9 Exhibit 50. .......... McCrone "DO NOT USE" 9 10 Bates JNJMX68 6930................. 296 10 11 Exhibit 51. .......... McCrone report and handwritten 11 12 Cover note /Bates JNJMX68 12023.....300 12 13 Exhibit 52. ......... McCrone report to Goudie 13 14 Re: Examination of JBP 14 15 Bates JNJMX68 6935................... 301 15 16 Exhibit 53. ........ Note from Nashed to Goudie 16 17 Bates JNJAZ55 5980................... 305 17 18 Exhibit 54. ........ Memo from Nashed to Fuller Re 18 19 Re: Talc/Asbestos Shower to Shower 19 20 Bates JNJAZ55 3576................... 308 20 21 Exhibit 55. ........ Memo enclosing Pooley Report 21 22 "An Examination of Italian Mine 22 23 Samples and Relevant Powders" 23 24 Bates JNJAZ55 212, Bates JNJAZ55 87 ....314 24 25 25 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION Exhibit 56......... Memo to File from Nashed Re: Shower to Shower/Asbestos FDA Meeting, Sept 21,1972 Bates JNJAZ55J80...................324 Exhibit 57........ Memo from Nashed to Fuller Re: Talc/Asbestos, Jan. 29,1973 Bates JNJAZ55,,4172.................. 327 PAGE Page 375 Exhibit 58........ Memo from Reid and Caneer to Ashton, February 26, 1973 6 Re: Mineralogical examination of 7 five talc samples. S Bates JNJNL61J084.................. 332 9 10 Exhibit 59........Memo Re Dispersion-Staining 11 Examination of Retained Samples 12 13 OfJohnson's Baby Powder - 14 Project No. 503 15 Bates JNJNL61J6471..................336 16 17 Exhibit 60........Note Re: Microscopic examination 18 OfJBP, April 27,1973 19 Bates JNJMX68_10608..................339 20 21 Exhibit 61........J&J Analysis of powdered talc for 22 Asbestiform Minerals by TEM 23 Bates JNJNL61 5032...................340 2 4 25 Page 3' EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE Exhibit 62........ Memo from Shelley Re Talc, June 4,1973 /Bates JNJAZ55 1587........344 Exhibit 63. ...... Letter from Frank (J&J) to Lee (J&J) Re Audit Testing of Windsor 66 Talc for Asbestos Bates JNJMX68 18545..................... 355 Exhibit 64........ Memo from Shelley to Rolle Re: Talc, June 4,1973 Bates JNJMX68 3239...................... 360 Exhibit 65.. ..... Memo from Petterson, June 6,1973 Bates JNJAZ55 4643...................... 363 Exhibit 66........ Letter from Rolle to Pooley, June 6,1973/Bates JNJAZ55 5081........ 365 CERTIFICATE OF DEPONENT Page 377 I, JO H N HOPKIN S, hereby certify that I have read the foregoing pages, num bered 1 through 366, o f my deposition o f testim ony taken in these proceedings on Tuesday, August 15,2017, and, with the exception o f the changes listed on the next page and/or corrections, if any, find them to be a true and accurate transcription thereof. S igned: ............................ Name: JOHN HOPKINS D ate: ............................ 95 (Pages 374 - 377) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718 -983-1234 Page 378 1 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 2 3 I, DEIRD RA JO RDAN , an A ccredited C ourt Reporter, 4 hereby certify that the testim ony o f the witness, JOHN 5 HOPKINS, in the foregoing transcript taken on Tuesday, 6 August 15,2017, was recorded by m e in machine 7 shorthand and w as thereafter transcribed by me; and 8 that the foregoing transcript is a true and accurate 9 verbatim record o f the said testim ony. 10 11 12 I further certify that I am not a relative, employee, 13 co unsel o r financially in volved w ith an y o f the 14 parties to the w ithin cause, nor am I an em ployee or 15 relative o f any counsel for the parties, nor am I in 16 any w ay interested in the outcom e o f the w ithin cause. 17 18 19 S igned: ............................ 20 Name: DEIRDRA JORDAN 21 D ate: ............................ 22 23 24 25 1 ERRATA SHEET Priority-One Cotut Reporting/Veritext 2 718-983-1234 ASSIGNMENTS. Pl-2657967 3 CASE NAME: Herford, Verdolotti, Teuscher & Etheridge v. Asbestos/Johnson & Johnson DATE OF DEPOSITION: 8/15/2017 4 WITNESS' NAME: Dr. John Hopkins Vol 1 5 PAGE/LINE(S)/ CHANGE REASON 6 // //_________________________I/_____________ 7 / /________________ /________ / /_________ /_____ 8 / /_________________/_________ / /________/____ 9 / /________________ /________ / /________/____ 10 / /________________ /________ / /________/____ 11 / /________________ / ________ / /________/____ 12 / /________________ I________ / I_____________ /_______ 13 / /________________ /_________ / /_____________ i_______ 14 / /________________ /________ / /________/____ 15 / /________________ /________ _______ /____ 16 / /________________ /________ / /________/____ 17 / /________________ /________ / /________________ I_________ 18 i /________________/________ l l________________ /_________ 19 / /________________ /________ 20 ______________________ Dr. John Hopkins Vol 1 21 (Notary not required in California) SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO 22 BEFORE ME THIS_____ DAY OF______________,2017. 23 24 NOTARY PUBLIC 25 MY COMMISSION EXPIRES. Page 379 96 (Pages 378 - 379) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 1 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 2 3 I, DEIRDRA JORDAN, an Accredited Court Reporter, 4 hereby certify that the testimony of the witness, JOHN 5 HOPKINS, in the foregoing transcripttaken on Tuesday, 6 August 15, 2017, was recorded by me in machine 7 shorthand and was thereafter transcribed by me; and 8 that the foregoing transcript is a true and accurate 9 verbatim record of the said testimony. 10 11 12 I further certify that I am not a relative, employee, 13 counsel or financially involved with any of the 14 parties to the within cause, nor am I an employee or 15 relative of any counsel for the parties, nor am I in 16 any way interested in the outcome of the within cause. 17 18 19 Signed: ?.2P!7............ 20 Name: DEIRDRA JORDAN 22 23 24 25 1 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 2 3 I, DEIRDRA JORDAN, an Accredited Court Reporter, 4 hereby certify that the testimony of the witness, JOHN 5 HOPKINS, in the foregoing transcript taken on Tuesday, 6 August 15, 2017, was recorded by me in machine 7 shorthand and was thereafter transcribed by me; and 8 that the foregoing transcript is a true and accurate 9 verbatim record of the said testimony. 10 11 12 I further certify that I am not a relative, employee, 13 counsel or financially involved with any of the 14 parties to the within cause, nor am I an employee or 15 relative of any counsel for the parties, nor am I in 16 any way interested in the outcome of the within cause. 17 18 19 Signed: W V . ............ 20 Name: DEIRDRA JORDAN 22 23 24 25 [& -1.520] Page 1 & & 1:162:103:10 4:9 5:8,13,14,19 5:19 6:8,15,21 7:2 7:6,12,17,22,25 8:2,7,10,11,15 9:7 9:9,15,17,20,20 10:4 11:6,11,14 12:7,11,15,18,21 13:2,5,19,21,22,24 13:25 14:13 15:12 15:15,20,21,25 16:6,14,17,19 17:7 17:18 20:12,22 22:7 24:8,23 25:3 25:20,22,25 26:6 28:8,23 29:2,3,6 29:12,17,19,23,23 30:1,4,6,22 31:1,5 31:16 32:4,13,18 32:23 33:2,7,20,22 33:23 34:1,5,10 35:2,17,20,24 36:4 38:14 39:11 40:11 41:13,16 42:11,14 42:18 44:24 45:20 47:14 49:18,21 51:22 52:8 57:5 57:18 58:1,7,9,10 58:14,16 59:5 61:10 62:7,13,18 63:22 64:13 66:7 66:10 67:2,17,25 68:17,22,24 69:6,7 69:10,25 70:23 71:5 72:14 73:8 74:4 75:21 76:7 76:15,25 77:5,21 78:22 79:2,12 80:11 82:18,21 83:10,11 84:3,8,8 84:13 85:10 86:7 89:1,2 90:4,5,7,11 91:2,9 92:5,25 93:6,16,20 94:10 94:16 95:10,19,23 96:6,14,21 97:10 97:21,24 98:11,20 98:25 99:14 102:6 102:14 105:9,22 112:10113:17,21 114:8116:17,24 119:3,8,12,17,20 120:8,11 121:5 122:16,21 123:10 124:2 126:6 127:15 128:5,11 130:15,25 131:2 133:3,13 135:6,13 135:15,18,23 136:11 138:19,23 139:5 140:13,16 141:24 144:9,18 147:15,16 149:13 152:25 156:21 157:8 158:10,23 159:15 160:8 161:8 162:12 165:11 166:1,13 166:14 172:10 173:16,22 174:25 177:14 178:14,20 185:2,3 189:2 191:10 196:22 197:11,12 199:1 203:20 204:10 206:23,25 207:7 208:13,14 210:16 210:24 212:11,22 213:24 214:4 215:10216:6 218:9 219:8 220:3 220:7 221:9,12,25 230:22 233:16 236:3 239:25 241:4,12 244:25 245:17 247:7,18 247:22 249:19,22 250:7,15,22 254:14 255:17 257:15 259:20 266:10,10 267:2 271:5 273:4,10,16 273:20,23 274:13 274:22,24 275:1,4 275:8 281:19,23 282:9283:17 284:21 285:8 286:19 288:25 289:3,13 290:12 294:14 295:8 296:20,23 297:4 298:7,9,16 299:9 304:18 306:24 308:25 309:6 310:22 311:24 312:10 323:20,23 324:2,17 326:10 329:4 338:15 342:11 344:1,11 346:19 347:5 348:12,13 351:3 352:8 353:10 354:23,25 355:23 356:8 357:10 367:19 369:16 379:3,3________ ______________0 _____________ 0.0 57:11 0.005-0.001 272:10 0.2-0.3 298:25 303:22 0.5 297:22 298:24 299:12 303:10,21 304:7 00000 85:12,15 173:17 175:11,15 176:10 180:1 346:2 0001 349:11 001 268:9 269:18 270:5 271:1,17,22 341:5 01 282:9,14 285:19 03 88:22 274:19 05 310:2 07932-1047 8:8 08903 5:21 0932-17 2:6 095 317:19 ________ 1________ 1 1:1145:25 67:10 145:18 178:1,1 181:23,24 182:25 183:6 185:22 186:8,12,20 189:13,19,24 195:1 200:25 201:19,21 202:3 202:13,15,17,18 203:15 205:25,25 211:25 226:4,8,14 230:20 232:6,23 299:3 309:25,25 310:3,3 331:5 332:4,11 341:5,21 341:25 342:1 343:3 368:9 377:3 379:4,20 1-4 46:3 1.15.60. 199:4 1.520 192:18 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [1/2 -1958] 1/2 225:23 1/3 191:6 10 105:20,21 108:9 110:11,15,23,25 181:16 196:2 197:16 224:14 236:10281:1 282:18 285:17 293:3 309:25 310:3 368:4 369:7 10.000 118:1,4 10.15.57. 174:2 10.27.72 300:22 100 7:9,14143:19 1000 6:10 10005 7:9 10022 6:4 101061 368:18 1013 371:21 1014 371:15 1032 370:13 1038 174:16 105 369:9 10608 375:21 108t 297:5 298:8 298:24 299:9 303:21 305:24 109t 297:5 298:8 298:25 299:10 303:22 305:24 10:17 1:13 9:1,5 11 124:15,16 198:13 221:21 270:8,11272:8 280:23 369:10 11.000 251:7 ll,000x 251:6 11.10.71. 293:7 111 336:13 1114 370:23 11185 372:8 1123 374:3 1152 7:4 117 319:3 11:38 92:20 11:50 92:21 11th 6:4 12 126:4,5,6 137:24,24198:16 204:20 286:1 369:12 12,000x 309:24 12023 374:12 123 8:3 363:10 124 365:23 369:11 12423 372:12 126 369:15 12:02 104:18 12:04 104:19 12:06 52:14 12:42 144:24 13 105:25 112:9 136:7,8 202:23 203:8 212:7 223:13 369:16 132 320:3,4,5 323:3 1341 370:19 1347 185:13 136 369:18 1364 186:17,25 1369 371:3 13746 370:6 13947 369:18 14 150:8,9,10,11 204:15 369:19 1480 371:9 1489 370:15 15 1:12 9:4152:13 152:14 173:24 199:2 206:18 369:21 377:4 378:6 150 369:20 15127 372:16 15152 234:14,18 152 369:22 15222 6:10 1526 373:14 15772 372:24 158 370:6 1587 376:4 15th 7:4 16 27:2,3,4,6,8,18 109:12 111:23 112:16158:17,18 210:12 289:16 370:3 1615 85:17 16275 374:8 16471 375:18 168 321:9 17 172:5,6,7 188:25 212:4 224:20239:20 282:25 370:7 170 322:5 370:11 1700 7:23 17147 369:6 173 370:13 175 370:15 17827 370:11 179 370:17 17a 319:4 18 21:24 23:25 26:24,25 27:18 52:14 76:11 153:13 173:19,20 179:14 363:18 370:12 184 370:19 Page 2 18511 371:23 18545 376:8 1870s 157:3 188 370:23 1890s 157:3 1898 155:6 156:3 19 67:8 172:2 177:4,5 242:24 244:2 330:23 337:5,23 347:24 370:14 1900 8:12 1900s 149:17 240:20 241:1 1903 155:2 1905 155:2 191 370:24 1910 224:15 19109 8:4 1920 224:15,23 1924 151:4 1930 224:24 1930s 149:20 1936 156:10,14 1940s 22:17 23:13 41:22 60:13 98:2 127:23 133:22 1946 22:8,14 41:23 42:5 151:4 1948 172:12 1949 149:24 150:19 152:9 153:15,25 154:10 154:16,21 1950s 22:17,17 23:13 215:5 1957 173:24 1958 177:10 179:8 179:19 183:25 184:25 188:15 203:22,24 217:12 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [1959 - 260] Page 3 1959 188:25 191:10 192:8 195:24 196:7 198:24 370:22 196 371:3 1960 199:2 203:6 204:20 1961 208:8 212:7 214:3,13 1963 219:5 1966 22:18 126:9 130:2 134:4 221:5 223:14 1967 86:4 225:9 233:6 1968 177:17 1970 233:24 238:2 1970s 82:2 121:8 216:8 241:19,20 241:21 255:12 1971 65:23 67:18 105:25 130:16 236:10 256:24 257:15 258:9 260:23 264:10 266:18,25 280:23 282:18 283:16 1972 282:25 287:4 291:20 296:24 308:1 375:4 1973 330:23 333:1 337:5 344:18 345:12 346:18 360:3 363:23 375:7,10,20 376:4 376:10,12,15 1974 76:11 78:22 80:1,23 81:11 1976 12:8,12 91:20 119:25 1977 102:23 355:25 198 371:5 1980 88:5 241:24 1980s 132:23 157:25 158:6 1985 136:12 314:24 1990 103:1 133:4 134:5,7,9,20 1990s 334:3 1991 103:4 1994 103:8 1995 12:16 103:11 103:14,17 342:24 343:1 1996 105:4 158:19 158:20 160:13 164:23 165:4,25 314:11 1998 12:17 1999 20:7,10 23:6 103:20 1:23 144:25 lh q 1:17 9:7 _________ 2_________ 2 110:8 140:5 171:25 178:1 183:1,6 185:17,20 186:4,5,9,20 189:12 190:9 193:21,23 195:1 195:20 197:24 199:18,21 200:20 200:22,23,23 201:19 202:15,17 202:21 203:16 204:23 205:7 208:17 212:18 232:23 242:3 254:3 293:11,12 299:3,5,14 320:10 368:10 2.000 115:9 2.30 243:9 20 17:14 92:19 179:3,4 271:13 287:4,15 288:15 325:1 341:14,21 341:23 370:16 20.000 292:8,13 200 7:14 341:14 200.000 25:9 2000 12:19 13:6,9 13:13 40:8 20005 7:4 2000s 161:9 2003 88:18 103:24 104:2 2004 104:5,9 2005 46:15 47:2 48:13,17 49:9 50:16 52:4,14 104:21,25 214:8 214:12,14,23 215:9 2006 39:14,24 2007 57:9 2009 329:18 2011 12:21 2015 239:20 2016 152:17 2017 1:12 9:4 20:10 377:4 378:6 379:22 202-339-8458 7:5 203 371:7 204 371:9 206 371:11 21 184:17,18 205:17 233:6 275:23 324:20 370:18 375:4 210 371:13 212 371:15 374:24 212.605.6200 6:5 212.912.3505 7:10 213.283.2100 6:23 213.443.4365 7:24 213.486.8043 6:17 214.276.7680 5:5 215.772.7242 8:4 218 371:21 22 188:21,22 201:5 201:18 205:4,17 370:20 221 371:23 223 372:6 225 372:8 23 151:4 184:25 186:2 191:22,23 370:24 230 372:12 233 372:16 235 151:5 372:18 239 372:22 24 52:3 134:7,9,11 177:10,17 196:2,3 308:1 371:3 242 372:24 25 1:16 9:7 198:17 198:18 210:19 324:16 338:15 371:5 250 362:6 373:6 2546 302:5,6 256 373:9 26 140:3,6 202:24 202:25 333:1 334:18 371:7 375:10 260 373:11 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [264 - 503] Page 4 264 373:14 2657967 1:25 266 372:6 373:19 2676-55a 276:6 27 204:15,16 218:21 296:18,23 339:25 347:24 371:9 375:20 275 373:22 28 46:15 185:4 202:5,11 206:19 206:20 355:25 371:11 280 373:24 2800 6:22 282 374:3 287 374:5 288 374:8 29 158:20210:13 210:14 256:24 257:15 328:7 371:13 375:7 296 374:10 2:30 206:12 2:44 206:13 2b 39:2140:2 ________ 3 3 82:14137:19,20 144:2 153:7 175:18 181:24 182:19 185:20 200:25 201:20 259:1 266:25 270:3 283:16 284:19 289:24,25 299:6,14 318:6 366:6 368:11 3,000 321:23 30 187:2,8 188:15 188:15,17 212:5,6 225:9 271:13 333:24 334:19,20 335:9,12 341:14 341:23 371:15 30-71 333:24 334:19 335:6 300 6:22 8:12 26:15 27:14 374:12 301 374:15 305 374:17 308 374:20 31 151:8 188:15 192:8 196:7 198:24 218:19,20 371:17 314 374:24 32 221:3 371:23 32-71 335:15,21 336:1 3200 6:16 3232 5:4 3239 376:11 324 375:5 327 375:8 33 223:9,10 372:3 332 375:13 336 375:18 339 375:21 34 134:5 225:2,3 372:7 34-71 334:20 340 375:24 3400 5:15 344 376:4 3441 236:18 345 78:15 35 230:16,17 372:9 355 376:8 3576 374:20 36 233:20,22 235:19,22 372:13 360 376:11 363 376:13 365 376:15 366 377:3 37 235:23,24 372:17 38 239:15,16 372:19 380 375:5 39 242:22,23 372:23 39211 7:14 3:1 344:3,5 357:11 357:23 358:2 3:16 235:16 3:18 235:17 ________ 4_______ 4 45:25 65:23 172:25 173:15 183:19 187:11,13 188:17 200:15 233:23 254:7 259:2 341:14,21 344:18 346:18 360:3 368:12 376:4,10 4,000 115:10,13 4.27 341:2 40 5:20 250:4,5 373:3 405 5:10 40s 42:10 57:7 98:15 157:21 41 143:11256:21 256:22,23 373:7 412.281.5000 6:11 4172 375:8 42 260:20,21 373:10 43 264:9 373:12 44 144:1214:12 266:20,21 373:15 4485 369:11 45 275:17,18 373:20 455 6:16 46 84:22,23 85:9,9 86:7 280:18,19 293:8,10 368:9,10 368:11,12,16 373:23 4622 374:8 4624 374:5 4643 376:13 4646 373:9 47 282:23,24 374:2 48 286:25 287:1,3 374:4 480 5:20 49 288:21,22 374:6 4904 369:9 4:06 282:20 4:18 282:21 ________ 5________ 5 46:4,8 78:6 108:9110:15 177:3 182:13 198:6,8 287:15 299:4,13 307:24 341:21 368:13 370:22 5-8 110:12 5.10.71. 236:15 5.14.71. 237:23 50 36:12 219:4,24 220:4,18 296:12 296:13 309:25 310:3 374:9 500 5:10 503 336:17 375:17 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [5032 - 8118] Page 5 5032 375:24 5038 343:11 5081 376:15 50s 60:13 98:15 157:21 160:10,11 215:4,10 51 300:11,12 374:11 510.590.9511 8:13 5152 234:20 52 301:12,13 302:9 368:18 374:13 5253 373:24 53 305:17,18 374:16 535 6:10 54 307:4,5 374:18 55 313:20,21,25 325:24 374:21 55b 276:7 55c 276:7 56 324:5,6 375:2 57 174:14 327:8,9 375:6 5743 373:6 577 371:7 58 177:18 179:14 185:4 186:2 332:23,24 375:9 59 336:13,14 375:14 5967 373:22 5970 276:18 5973-16 4:5 5980 374:17 5:1 344:10 5:19 339:5 5:21 339:6 5:50 367:25 ________ 6________ 6 51:25 52:1 145:5 172:12 179:2 187:11 192:13 200:22,24 208:8 237:5,9 260:22 309:24 341:25 342:1 363:23 364:15 365:1,25 368:18 376:12,15 6.30.2003 125:19 6/17 287:8 60 211:20 339:23 339:24 375:19 600 5:15 8:8 601.863.2100 7:15 6061 372:18 6075 236:5 237:17 6076 236:7 60s 116:7 158:13 161:8 215:4,5,10 231:10 274:8,8,14 61 210:19 342:21 368:20 375:22 610 5:4 62 344:16,17 376:3 63 195:19 218:21 355:14,15,16 376:5 633 7:23 64 355:13,14 359:25 360:1 368:24 376:9 65 211:20 363:21 363:22 376:12 65669 368:21 66 86:16,18 129:5 220:21221:17 356:13 365:23,24 376:7,14 67 86:8,11,15,18 87:10 88:18 230:20 232:14 68 86:15,19 177:21 177:21 274:14 6930 374:10 6935 374:15 6:1 344:10 ________ 7_______ 7 61:5,6 152:16 221:5,17 343:9 368:20 7.18. 179:18 7.9.71 254:25 70 241:22 7007 373:11 7024 358:21 70s 76:19 88:1 114:17 116:10 121:10 122:3 158:3 159:18 243:1 245:14 279:3,6 329:17 357:22 71 66:10 67:2 107:9112:9,15 113:18 243:1 244:3 256:18 270:3 275:23 285:17 293:3 307:16 333:24 334:19,20 335:9 335:12 713.227.8008 5:16 716 231:2 372:10 718-983-1234 379:2 72 120:2 243:1 244:3 284:5 296:18 314:16,19 324:9,20 337:10 337:13 7249-16 3:6 73 120:2 328:7 334:18 336:7 337:10,13,23 339:25 347:4,20 352:10 364:15 365:1 732.545.4717 5:21 74 79:5 81:3 83:22 92:25 120:10 352:10 746 371:11 75 120:10 75204 5:5 758 371:13 76 97:18,20,24 294:12 369:6 77 357:16 358:12 77002 5:10 77002-2926 5:16 78 296:11 797 371:5 8 8 65:11,13 110:16 115:10181:16 188:20 193:20 203:6 314:6 368:23 8-9 183:18 8/15/2017 379:3 80 112:12 114:17 241:24 305:10 800 6:4 8084 375:13 80s 88:2 116:10 133:10 138:16 158:3 81120 368:16 8118 368:24 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [8128 - advice] Page 6 8128 66:4 8143 67:8 839 202:4,4 840 370:24 85 138:14 314:25 87 374:24 88 183:17 201:19 8893 373:19 8898 268:3 270:18 89 313:19 ________ 9_______ 9 76:5,6 179:8 191:21 198:4 240:17 264:10 343:9 368:3 369:3 373:4 9.21 325:14 90 64:9 115:2 132:23 133:11 183:17 193:10 198:1 200:21,24 263:23 324:4 90071 6:22 7:23 90071-1651 6:16 902 195:3 903 195:3 905 370:17 90s 116:10 138:16 161:9 911 179:22 92 263:23 317:25 94612 8:13 95 183:18 198:1 357:13,14 96 185:19 97 64:14175:23 185:19 225:22 972.537.4205 5:11 973.549.7338 8:9 98 263:24 9898 369:15 99 175:24 99.9 61:8 994 233:2_______ ________ a_______ abandoned 129:20 130:5 abide 269:3 abilities 273:12 ability 240:7 242:6 255:19 268:17 352:16 able 101:2 107:18 116:25 140:5 162:14 170:2 182:11 191:19 229:12 244:14 251:9 255:25 258:10 321:6 345:16,17 348:7 348:20 354:23 absence 90:20 91:17 98:17 154:14 166:19,21 216:20 323:25 356:12 absolute 359:6 absolutely 217:21 292:23 296:5 absorb 71:16 111:17 absorbing 139:25 absorbs 139:23 absorptive 112:10 abundant 176:1 223:1 academy 148:24 accept 248:15 acceptable 94:3,22 144:18,20,21 166:23 175:9 216:17,22 acceptance 60:16 66:23 139:10 accepted 110:10 146:1 accessible 134:1 accessories 180:15 accessory 182:1 193:14,16 194:3 213:13 222:23 295:23 accommodate 145:16 account 95:11 accredited 378:3 accurate 324:13 341:1 377:6 378:8 achieve 167:19 achieved 351:6 acicular 42:2 98:6 180:12 181:7 217:13 acknowledge 88:16 act 136:25 actinolite 45:9 98:13 99:3,9 176:19 257:10,17 257:20 258:3,7,12 259:12,16,19 261:13,20,25 262:18,21 335:7 335:10 340:16 342:6 357:2 364:19 365:3 active 82:1 acts 71:19 139:18 actual 74:12 89:8 121:18 146:17 237:8 263:8 268:2 270:21 274:24 293:23 322:2 349:24 add 74:10 294:6 added 72:17 205:14 244:17 272:15 294:15 adding 72:19 205:9 addition 28:7 91:2 129:9 165:1 253:13 295:23 additional 28:20 53:17 91:3 162:12 255:15 351:5 359:9 additive 272:13 additives 272:4,20 329:12 330:3 address 22:6 207:22 adds 91:2 adequate 134:14 adjourned 367:25 adjusted 193:8 administration 290:3 291:3 administrative 21:18 admits 290:25 admitted 290:3 adopt 162:22 adopted 197:1 294:12 adult 68:14 adults 59:8,14,22 60:1,16 68:13 102:8 103:2,12 adverse 119:9 advertising 112:10 advice 51:13 164:19 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [advise - amphiboles] advise 49:11 50:7 214:15 adviser 40:15 advising 48:18 191:7 192:6 advocate 357:22 affiliate 47:6 50:8 214:15 215:15,19 216:1 affiliates 47:3 164:15 affinity 142:23 africa 53:13 54:25 220:9 african 220:14 afternoon 308:13 308:16 age 102:12 267:12 agencies 42:15 agency 39:12 40:5 94:6 287:9 361:1 aggregate 320:17 aggregates 180:11 180:24 agit 85:17 ago 72:20 80:1 248:10 359:10 agree 30:22,24 31:1,3,5 32:13,18 32:23 33:2,22 37:6 39:11 41:3 62:17 68:17 70:8 70:13 89:1 102:6 105:9 110:5 124:25 130:12 139:5 195:22 256:14 331:14 352:11 agreeable 10:8,20 agreed 238:10 248:3 348:6 agreement 10:3,13 171:6 269:4,10 agrees 32:4 33:20 34:2,5,10 35:20 45:3 92:5 116:25 286:19 ah 80:17 100:23 291:22 ahead 10:25 66:3 67:7 82:13 110:8 111:10145:11 151:18,19 171:25 175:17 191:19 195:1 203:1 226:12 232:2 282:19 320:2 321:7,8 aid 123:13 aim 194:8 ain't 359:19 air 155:24 283:25 284:16 286:11 airborne 156:10 al 1:7 2:10 3:10 4:9 267:1 306:11 372:21 alabama 227:3,13 227:18,22 228:15 229:14,24 230:3 albite 261:14 aliquot 238:7 alive 314:8 allegation 14:20 allegedly 314:19 alleging 289:17 alley 367:17 allow 40:1442:11 55:3 99:25 101:7 165:11 allowable 78:5 allowance 97:25 allowed 53:19 78:19,24 79:13,17 79:22 80:12 83:4 83:16 93:3,21 97:12 155:23 alluded 161:10 alps 261:5 altered 208:24 209:14 212:1 222:24 223:6 alternate 46:18 368:14 alternative 51:14 66:13 88:9 138:24 139:6,8,14,15 162:21241:11 351:9 amadea 6:21 amalik 7:6 amax 6:12 amazon 17:22 ambiguous 334:17 amenable 107:17 107:18 america 2:7 3:7 4:6 6:12,19 53:13 53:13 54:24,25 220:9 american 7:19 129:25 148:11 149:25 150:18 220:17 amosite 43:8 357:1 amount 38:22 39:24 73:22,22 74:9,10 78:14 79:13 83:9 98:12 182:20 183:1 187:23 222:22 2 3 amounts 63:19 64:9 161:6 165:9 176:3 222:23 224:17 243:19 257:9 282:5,7,8 288:1 310:18 311:14312:18 325:10 340:19 341:5 amphibole 48:7,25 49:6,19 50:5,18 51:17 162:6,22 163:3,10 164:5 165:6,12,13 166:25 168:8 170:7,16,17 171:1 176:12 180:13,13 181:7 182:1,6 209:14 211:14 214:16,19,20 215:2,3,13 216:11 217:8,14,19 219:1 219:17,21 222:24 223:7 273:24 321:15,15 335:13 340:15,19,22 341:2 347:9,12,15 347:16 350:23 356:25 357:6 358:10 amphiboles 50:10 97:12 160:18,24 162:7 166:2,14 176:3,8,15 196:24 208:25 212:1 213:10 215:21,21 217:23 347:9 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [am phiboles - asbestos] Page 8 364:21 analyses 172:18 172:19 205:4 219:13 329:16 349:4 analysis 152:1 200:18 202:12 225:19 235:5 236:18 288:1 290:4 301:5 339:19,21 343:14 345:4 361:7 373:5 375:22 analytical 105:12 239:8 348:8 373:4 analyze 119:21 182:20 187:3 339:22 analyzed 202:6 204:5 225:20 351:7 analyzes 315:18 angeles 1:1 6:16 6:22 7:23 angular 223:2 animal 114:5 anne 7:3 answer 12:24 58:17 120:15 135:8 136:17 138:1,7,25 140:5 140:13 143:17 144:6 158:9 167:2 189:18 204:12 216:18 229:25 269:12 273:13 329:24 answered 39:7 answering 62:1 answers 11:13,13 136:11,22 369:17 anthophyllite 45:6 92:7 98:12 99:3,9 176:19 335:15,19 357:1 antigorite 45:15 anxious 191:4 anybody 38:19 74:2 104:15 235:12 239:1 313:6 347:23,24 anybody's 24:24 anymore 19:18 20:21 anyone's 102:19 anyway 81:5 94:8 212:18 365:13 apatite 176:3 180:15 261:12 apologize 169:25 206:15 212:15 apparently 54:15 160:21 161:18 307:2 346:2 appear 66:9,22 107:17 189:5 225:12 289:5 302:10 351:8 appearance 253:5 254:5 258:11 appeared 132:22 152:8 289:16 appearing 5:2,8 5:13,19 8:14 310:1 appears 82:17 84:11 145:20 200:11 209:20 302:7 364:21 appendix 186:20 186:21 195:1 202:3 applicable 199:21 application 39:19 55:13 56:11 applied 40:5 47:9 54:11 56:10 145:7 146:9,20 147:1,5 147:10 applies 47:20 48:15 171:8 apply 56:11 57:20 145:22 146:3,3,10 146:15,20,21 351:19 352:21 355:1 applying 54:8,10 54:14,16 55:8,21 56:6,14,24 145:20 appreciation 114:18 approach 48:19 49:13 111:14 162:10 163:6,8,12 164:21,25 appropriate 51:21 approval 46:18 162:20 368:14 approved 49:8 80:3 94:20 214:8 216:7 approximate 22:14 approximately 9:4 25:8 27:9 86:4 88:18 158:12,13 195:19 237:9 241:20 298:24 303:21 april 13:10,13 204:20 221:5,17 337:5,23 339:25 347:4,24 375:20 arden 6:18 area 71:15 89:16 238:13 253:22 255:8,21 256:15 262:5,10,12,21 277:7,22 316:5 areas 96:17 97:7 169:2 262:25 263:3 316:7 318:22,22 argonaut 207:10 207:17 208:3 210:25 273:19,21 arrow 173:7 art 256:16 article 129:16,24 130:2 131:23 132:11 134:4,10 150:22 287:8 289:15,17 291:8,9 291:17 articles 76:18 288:5 289:20 arul 102:23 asbestiform 43:19 43:22 44:4,18 45:1,6,9 54:3 99:8 99:15 218:3,10,10 240:6 242:5,15,17 276:10 297:11 298:6,11 299:11 314:12,13 342:20 346:25 358:20 366:25 375:23 asbestos 24:13 33:20,23,24,24 34:2,3,5,11,14,15 34:18,24 35:21,22 35:25 36:4,6,12,14 36:22 37:8,22 38:15,18,24,25 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [asbestos - assay] Page 9 39:13,16 41:10 42:6,8,9,11,19,22 42:24 43:1,2,4,4,6 43:7,8,8,10,13,15 43:18,24,25 44:4,5 44:6,8,9,14,15,19 44:22 45:1,7,10,12 45:16 48:7,25 49:3,10,19,23,25 49:25 50:4,9,18,18 51:17,21 57:6,11 57:19,20,23 58:3,9 58:10,15,17 63:19 63:23 64:10,14,21 65:5 70:15 75:22 76:12 78:5,18,24 79:9,11,13,17,22 80:3,6,10,12 81:4 81:10,13 82:1 83:4,9,15,16,21 84:7,10,14,14 89:6 89:8,11,20,24 90:2 90:13,16,21 91:17 92:6,9,9 93:3,7,14 93:19,21 94:10,13 94:16 95:21 96:23 97:15,21,25 98:4,5 98:9,18,20,25 99:5 99:8,14 102:24 103:9 105:4,10,13 106:12 107:2,8 119:14 120:13 135:16 149:14,16 149:18,21 151:6 151:10,24 153:14 153:15,24 154:9 154:14,15,20 155:2,12 156:10 156:21,25 160:9 161:13 162:2,7,8 162:15,16,22 163:4 164:4,9,17 164:17 165:16,16 165:16,22,22 166:8,11,19,21 169:11 170:16 173:1,3 176:14,15 176:16 184:5,6,9 184:13,15 210:6,9 214:19,19215:1 215:21,22 216:20 216:21 217:5,8,9 217:20,24 218:3,7 218:9,12,15 233:15 240:5 242:4,16,17 243:19 244:1,5 253:4 254:10 257:3 258:20 260:13 261:22 262:1263:13 264:5,24 265:3,5 265:20,21,22 268:9 269:18 271:1,6 281:17 282:6 283:15,18 283:19 284:21,23 285:6,8,11,15,24 286:6,13,20 287:15 288:2,4,8 288:16 289:12,17 290:7,9,14,22 291:4,7,12,18 293:19 294:2,9 295:2,5 309:12,22 323:13,16 324:1 325:9 328:12,16 328:25 329:5 330:20 331:2,4,5 331:19,20,24 332:10,10 342:11 345:4 346:20,22 347:8,10,13,17,22 348:1 355:24 356:12,20,21 357:2,7 358:3 359:7 361:9 363:4 366:25 369:4 373:8 374:19 375:3,7 376:7 379:3 asbestosis 96:8 149:16 150:2,24 151:5,11,23,25 152:5 ashe 370:8 ashton 159:5 160:6,8 165:6 199:6 219:8 223:18,19,23 237:20 260:22 262:16 264:12,19 306:16,17 314:12 314:14 333:2,14 334:3 337:21 344:19 360:10 371:19 372:3,9 373:10,13 375:10 ashton's 159:24 333:4 asa 53:13 54:25 asian 47:5 48:18 50:8 aside 37:6 51:24 65:10 67:24 84:6 113:20 126:3 141:21 144:22 147:12,13 152:12 173:14 177:1 178:23 184:16 188:19 191:20 198:12 202:22 204:14 206:6 212:3 214:21 220:13 223:8 225:1 233:11 242:13 244:19 251:2 260:8,19 272:23 280:10 286:24 304:23 313:17 327:7 332:15 336:8 342:9 344:14 355:12 359:24 365:21 asked 57:9 82:16 105:16 119:18 122:15 244:9 269:15 283:14,24 284:15 301:8 310:8,10,16 312:16 324:24 328:12 330:1,2,19 363:24 asking 10:2 36:3 44:24 48:23 49:16 59:16 60:7 82:12 90:4 96:25 121:13 145:6 165:24,25 166:3 245:15 247:12 270:15 290:18,20 311:20 347:19 365:15 aspect 341:21 343:19 344:3,10 357:22 aspects 63:6 348:6 aspiration 126:13 126:15,22 127:1,1 127:6,12 134:10 369:14 aspirin 142:5 assay 232:5,12,18 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [assays - baby] Page 10 assays 232:7,9 assemble 179:5 assertion 40:1 assess 346:19 assessment 104:9 assignment 379:2 assist 62:1 assistant 21:19 associate 123:6 associated 176:13 222:4 225:23 226:20 227:7 228:2,18 229:7 230:5 associates 248:19 298:10 association 90:12 91:7,9 129:19 148:12 149:25 150:19 158:24 222:9 319:19 assume 281:15 344:5 assurance 294:8 349:13,20 assured 310:16,17 312:16 asterisk 233:5 at&t 1:6,6 atmosphere 34:19 attach 289:20 attached 136:17 159:4 160:6,15 234:6 237:25 345:1 attachment 290:19 374:6 attempted 171:16 attempting 78:16 attended 284:18 attendees 76:23 attending 6:2 7:2 8:2 attention 155:13 261:3 attic 22:1 23:24 24:3,6 attorney 21:3 attorneys 9:11 13:22 25:23 26:1 26:10 28:8 170:3 attracted 155:13 audit 96:16121:17 353:6,6 356:11 376:6 auditing 353:8 359:15 audits 184:7,12 217:22 august 1:12 9:4 52:3,14 105:25 112:9 196:7 210:19 233:6 260:22 264:10 283:16 284:19 308:1 377:4 378:6 author 130:1 152:3 162:19 257:18 268:15,16 authored 46:13 47:1 214:7 223:19 239:17,20 authoring 214:14 authority 217:2 available 18:1 108:5,17 151:21 227:2,21 228:14 241:18 avenue 5:4 6:4,22 avoid 42:9 169:2 170:12 avoided 170:13 214:16 avoids 89:16 aware 31:16 33:7 58:14 72:13 84:16 95:23 96:3 108:24 109:15,19,20 110:1,2 111:24 112:2,2,5,7 113:4 119:5,11,15 128:8 134:9 139:6 155:1 155:4 156:9,11 194:1 196:25 197:7 207:13 260:2,6,7 265:7 304:18 305:2,3 327:5,25 345:15 351:1 354:3 357:24 axes 317:3 azad 8:12_______ ________b________ b 280:4 333:24 334:19 335:9 368:6 baan 55:10 145:13 babies 30:23 32:9 58:15,22,23 59:4,7 59:14,17 60:2,8,14 68:12,19 70:9,14 71:12 78:12 95:25 102:7,16 105:11 129:20 130:5 baby 19:13,17 20:12 23:16 29:7 29:17 30:22 31:1 31:6,17 32:4,18 33:2 41:10 42:23 59:5,7,9,10,17,23 60:5,21 62:2,17 63:1,2,12,21,24 64:14,20 65:4 67:3,13,14 69:15 69:19 70:5,19,24 71:4,9,10,15 72:4 72:8,14,15,17,18 72:20,22,22,24 73:2,8,12,13,19 74:20,23,23,23,25 75:1,4,5,5,10,10 75:11,17,17 78:4 78:14,19,25 79:10 79:12,14,17,23 80:6,10,12,16,18 81:4,10,13 83:5,12 83:15,17,21 86:22 87:9 93:3,7,8,10 93:14,22 111:16 114:19115:1 122:16,22 123:3,3 123:11,12,22 124:3,10 125:2,21 126:13,19 127:3,4 127:16,16,18 128:4 129:4,5 133:4 134:1,17,18 135:11,15,21,25 136:11,20 138:3,5 138:9,13,15,20 140:11 141:19,23 142:13,21,23 143:4,4,6,19,20,22 144:9 157:2,7,8 185:23 189:21 191:7 203:19,25 204:3,11 212:22 213:20,24 214:9 219:23 223:3,17 225:13,18,19 226:15 234:8 236:18 237:8 238:3 241:5 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [baby - believe] Page 11 252:20 253:25 254:9 257:7,16 264:23 265:14 269:23 275:13 282:9 283:15 284:6,10,21 285:6 286:6,12,20 287:10 288:4,16 289:8,12,17,18 290:14,22 291:13 293:19 296:21,22 296:23 297:4 298:7 299:9 303:5 306:25 308:24 336:17 337:25 338:15 340:15 364:5 369:16 372:5,7 375:16 baby's 71:20 73:25 126:19 127:3 128:18 back 21:14 24:5 41:23 42:5,10 48:13 57:6 60:13 60:19 65:20 66:16 72:2,3 81:3,11 84:22 88:12 92:23 92:25 96:20 98:2 98:15,15 104:17 105:16 109:16 111:23 126:9,19 129:2,6 133:22 145:5 149:16 153:10 158:15 159:18 167:1 188:7 195:2 198:4 202:4 215:9 216:8 217:3 229:10 231:10 242:3 248:9 249:16 259:25 278:3 279:3 281:23 285:16 291:9,23 292:11,20 293:9 306:11,14 313:6 313:11 317:13 319:10 334:3 336:23 347:23,24 350:7 354:18 357:13 367:24 backed 239:4 background 12:12 12:24 36:22 37:2 37:6,7,17 39:1 59:1 66:2 298:12 308:17 310:11 bacon 1:16 5:14 9:721:18 bacteria 100:13,14 100:19,22 101:6 101:15,21 350:11 bad 135:14 246:5 ballpark 30:14 116:15 band 123:13 233:20 bare 291:13 bartlett 5:3 barton 104:12,21 base 225:21 316:16317:18 based 12:15 21:2 26:18 63:11 72:19 78:13,23 80:2 82:6 94:5 161:4 165:8 214:7 216:19218:5 245:12 252:13 266:8 268:23 317:4 338:13 341:4 basic 61:11 100:11 131:25 368:20 basically 120:1 130:15 146:15 164:7 169:8 194:16 215:22 217:3 227:14 228:20,22 231:18 236:5 266:1 316:8 basing 293:18 basis 48:2 51:3 62:14 95:2 120:23 120:25 121:17 164:1 178:25 215:1 216:24 238:13 276:21 359:14 batch 160:17 233:2,8,12 238:1 297:5 298:8,8 299:9 batches 298:10 362:1 bates 28:1161:7,9 66:4 174:16 178:16 179:22 186:4,4,17,23 202:4 234:13,23 234:24 236:5 268:3 320:4 321:9 368:16,18,21,24 369:6,9,11,15,18 369:20,22 370:6 370:11,13,15,17 370:19,23,24 371:3,5,7,9,11,13 371:15,21,23 372:6,8,12,16,18 372:22,24 373:6,9 373:11,14,19,22 373:24 374:3,5,8 374:10,12,15,17 374:20,24,24 375:5,8,13,18,21 375:24 376:4,8,11 376:13,15 battelle 174:3 177:12 179:8 184:21 188:7 189:20 192:2 196:5 197:11 198:22 203:3 204:20 208:9,20 210:16212:10 220:12 221:18 245:20 252:10 370:12,14,16,18 370:24 371:3,5,7,9 371:11,13,15,23 bc646315 1:5 beach 7:8 beam 253:17,19 bearer 103:11 bearings 193:7 beers 261:3 beginning 268:19 268:20,22 269:6 behalf 14:8 297:7 298:3 326:5 behavior 253:15 behaviour 133:24 134:16 139:16 behest 106:10 beings 100:13 belief 71:187:3 133:12 230:11 believe 21:22 24:8 119:24120:2,10 132:23 156:14 157:19 196:20 211:1 226:21 227:8 228:3,19 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [believe - buildings] Page 12 229:8,16,23 230:6 230:9,10 231:9 241:19 243:1,11 250:11 258:3 267:6 273:25 274:4 284:1 308:10 309:1 317:23 327:13 329:2 332:7 340:6 342:15,18 364:1,9 believed 111:15 138:14 175:1 244:8 290:14 believes 243:18 244:4 283:19 362:13 bell 1:6 belt 167:6 bene 199:24 beneficiate 317:14 beneficiated 227:1 227:20 228:13 beneficiation 199:20,23 209:23 212:21 213:19 benefit 65:171:11 71:12,23 72:2,3 111:14,25 135:21 135:22 136:1 140:11,15 141:2,7 141:11,18,23 142:4,7,10,14,19 143:7 177:22 200:9 215:15 benefits 105:18 130:17 135:19 139:10,10 141:24 141:25 142:4,6 best 122:11 309:14 309:17 330:21 betrayal 70:8,13 better 101:3 131:18 199:25 213:3,21,25 225:21255:19 265:11 279:1 beyond 35:13 bi 122:5,8 bicks 7:3 biddle 8:7 big 78:1 147:21 148:14 149:4 bigger 101:2 biggest 17:7 bill 26:4,12 159:5 159:6,24 160:6 199:6219:8 223:23 260:22 306:16,17 314:11 333:1,4 334:3 bill's 159:11 biUed 26:22,23 bfilion 359:12 biologicaUy 108:4 108:16 birnbaum 103:24 bit 28:23,25 84:19 84:24 87:3 92:1,2 92:4 177:22 236:2 255:24 283:22 294:11 308:18 315:15 342:10 355:22 bite 207:12 black 54:3 170:5 bladed 319:21 blaes 372:21 blah 362:5,5,5 blend 175:2 blending 111:4 blocked 127:4 blue 240:16 board 324:7 334:11 bob 261:3 346:14 348:6 body 57:21 111:13 129:21 234:7 boilerplate 146:6 146:13 147:7 bold 154:3,24 bond 71:8 141:18 bonding 73:12,14 73:17,23,25 74:3 74:10,19,20 75:3 135:24 141:14 bother 295:18 bottle 128:21 244:18 bottles 135:7 bottom 22:9 28:11 66:4 67:8 168:1 174:16 178:16 179:22,23 181:22 182:5 185:13 186:3,17 201:12 226:18 234:5,12 234:14,21 236:6 237:17 261:8 305:11 319:3 320:5 324:21 326:20 337:9 343:9 367:11 bought 203:19 box 5:20 brackets 257:19 brake 34:16 branch 330:15 brands 123:15 brazil 77:22 break 92:16 96:11 104:16 136:6 142:22 144:23 196:14,14,18,23 206:9,11 235:15 breaking 283:19 breathe 39:2 110:24 brenntag 2:7 3:7 4:6 8:5 brent 104:25 briefly 363:20 bring 158:15 317:13 bringing 63:22 189:7 355:21 brings 190:11 bristol 6:18 britain 82:5 british 82:8 148:14 149:5 345:3 360:13,22 360:23 broad 1:16 8:3 9:7 277:13 329:13,21 broader 142:10,19 142:19 broadly 114:20 brothers 60:17 brought 72:8 brown 7:12 247:21,22 249:18 326:5 brunswick 5:21 16:8 147:24 338:5 buckley 103:14 buerger 326:5 building 6:9 buildings 34:16 36:13 39:2 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [bullet - cent] Page 13 bullet 65:3 bunch 187:3 308:21 317:3 366:3 bundy 6:15 bureau 106:9 367:6 business 131:14 131:19 134:22 135:13,14 buy 31:12 367:5,6 367:9 buying 31:10 76:2 byers 370:7 c c 5:1,46:17:18:1 42:2 106:8 191:4 276:14 298:9 334:20 335:12 cabinet 23:8 calcite 261:12 263:6 calculate 14:14 78:5 calculation 78:16 78:18 79:16,21 81:1 83:3 93:2 calculations 78:23 california 1:1 6:16 6:22 7:23 8:13 156:9 379:21 call 28:24 39:21 53:24 74:14,17 90:8 104:16 108:4 109:22 110:22 188:3 203:24 243:7,19 333:9 called 16:16 41:19 43:22 77:12 85:12 100:20 113:5 143:22 150:1,1 161:13 188:10 196:11218:1 221:7 225:13 243:9,22 257:22 273:17 274:4 308:13 330:14 336:15 360:17 calls 125:21 262:17 camera 170:2 campus 8:8 cancer 14:21 32:14,19 39:12 40:5 103:18,24 144:4 149:21 150:2,24 151:7,9 151:22 152:4 153:2 cancers 96:8 103:15 caneer 260:23 326:14 373:10 375:9 cap 127:22,24,25 128:3,7,14 134:16 capability 244:24 245:3,8 capable 174:10 caption 9:8 carbon 54:3 321:22 carbonate 175:25 180:14 182:1 209:23 222:22 225:23 321:22 carbonates 213:9 226:20 227:7 228:2,18 229:7 230:6 carcinogen 31:4 32:5 33:21,23 34:2,3 35:21,23 36:7,8 39:13,17,21 40:2 107:15 carcinogenic 36:18 108:6 carcinogenous 31:6 33:9 carcinogens 31:2 32:10 102:8,17 103:18 104:22 cardboard 157:22 care 63:17 64:8 91:11 cared 241:5 career 12:7 careful 106:13,20 carefully 154:24 Carolina 227:2,13 227:18 228:14 229:2,14 230:3,15 Caroline 227:21 229:24 carried 197:24 case 1:5 6:19,24 7:11,25 8:5,15 9:8 11:18,21,23,25 18:6 21:22 24:9 25:7,10,14 27:11 27:24 36:2 37:21 39:16 43:13 44:12 46:1 54:21 59:20 60:18 66:9 84:11 84:16 85:19 95:9 118:3 127:1 132:16,17 152:4 152:21,21,24 153:2 162:11,18 183:25 189:5 196:15 218:4 225:12 246:7 252:17 295:17 302:5 323:19 329:2,14 330:9 337:2 379:3 cases 6:12 10:11 11:10 13:16,20,25 14:6,6,16 15:11 26:21 35:3,18 44:11 89:5,8 126:18 127:3,11 142:22 151:8,25 164:15 188:4,4 248:16 categorization 94:5 category 176:12 caught 170:14 324:8 cause 32:14,19 34:6 37:2 38:4,8,9 57:23 144:7 265:21 378:14,16 caused 151:5 causing 14:20 24:24 33:3 cautionary 138:11 cautious 162:4,9 163:6,8 caveat 117:24 caveats 58:2 cc'd 109:12 360:10 cc'ing 112:16 308:3 366:3 cc's 337:15,18 cent 61:8 108:9,9 110:16 115:2 175:24 178:1 181:16,24,24 183:17,18,18,19 185:19,20 186:12 187:11,11,13 188:17 195:20 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [cent - circuit] Page 14 198:1,8 200:21,22 200:22,23,24,24 200:25,25 201:20 201:20,21202:13 202:15,16,17,17 202:21 203:16 211:20212:1 225:22 232:23 237:9 259:2 263:23,24 270:5 271:17,22 278:24 279:5 282:15 285:19 287:15 299:4,6 307:24 332:4,11 349:11 central 65:23 century 60:23 149:17 certain 38:4 47:25 51:1 71:17 87:5 90:1 94:1,22 153:8 163:24 176:13 209:6 214:24 290:20 336:19 349:18 certainly 15:25 17:11 25:1841:22 45:20 56:23 57:6 59:9 71:10 79:3,7 81:3 108:23 112:5 124:9 126:18 128:20 133:1,22 134:24 146:8 147:4 157:20 159:18 162:6 207:4,20 222:8 231:7,16 256:9 286:19 312:19 322:10 329:17 353:5 357:21 certificate 377:1 378:1 certify 377:3 378:4,12 cetera 34:17 137:12 183:2 275:14 317:14 333:24,24 chafing 71:14,20 111:16 112:11 challenge 107:23 131:12,15 chance 192:9 301:14 change 72:21 74:21 85:2 249:2 249:5,11252:6 295:11,24 303:17 307:8,10,14 341:20 349:23 350:2 379:5 changed 91:10 305:11 360:20 changes 349:24 350:3 353:3 377:5 changing 72:14,16 72:18 73:3,18 74:9 143:15,18 307:17 character 198:7 characteristic 254:5 310:19 358:10 characteristics 268:20 characterization 221:7 characterizations 171:14 charge 25:20,22 26:16,18 Charles 2:3 chart 169:24 217:12 chase 5:15 chat 150:6 check 91:4 196:21 301:7,9 321:25 336:24 340:7 361:25 362:2 checked 120:22 261:9 361:8,18 checking 267:14 chemically 226:5 Chicago 338:6 chief 151:7 155:5 330:14 child 68:2 73:7,12 75:7 104:10 127:16,18 128:6,9 128:11,13,17,18 128:20,24,25 132:7 childhood 102:24 103:15,17 104:6,6 children 68:11 102:7,16 103:5,8 103:12 104:2,25 129:19,25 132:19 133:10 134:12 135:7 346:20 Chinese 49:10 88:22 chisone 85:13,21 85:25 98:22 189:3 190:11,18,22,23 190:25 261:5 262:9 315:16 chloride 108:7 222:24 chlorite 244:15 255:14,20 277:16 278:20 320:18 chlorite's 277:17 choked 126:20 choking 126:17 choose 53:12 chose 40:25 chris 5:3 9:13 10:2 92:13 171:3 chrysotile 43:8 45:12,16 99:4,8 222:11,12,15,18 243:17 244:12,15 251:13,20 253:4 253:14,24 254:4 254:10,23 255:1,7 255:14,19 261:12 261:20,22 262:18 262:21 268:8 269:17,24 270:6 270:25 271:6 272:6,20,22 276:16,25 277:9 277:14,16 278:20 281:17,24 282:5,7 282:15 285:19 297:25 298:13 299:22 308:24 310:10,15,19 311:3,5,8,9,17,21 312:21313:9 325:9 326:21,23 327:1,3 335:23 336:2 339:15 346:4 347:11,15 348:8,16,21 351:18 352:22 354:24 355:1 356:22,24 361:9 cigarette 126:25 circuit 315:14 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [circumstance - company's] Page 15 circumstance 39:19 citrate 244:16 city 290:2 claim 258:16 272:22 307:19 311:7 349:3 claimed 24:12 141:9 250:21 309:4 claims 75:20 250:22 311:4 352:24 Clare 283:24 284:1 284:6,15 288:24 290:12 291:5 308:7 374:7 clarification 136:19161:3 171:20 200:6 251:15 clarified 289:19 d a rk 2:10 3:10 4:9 5:19 8:14 9:20 class 222:10,17 classic 317:2 classification 197:23 classified 193:12 276:21 clean 50:21 157:18 183:15 clear 10:10 27:8 48:16 49:7 51:17 51:19 89:1097:17 141:6 163:18 169:19,19 170:6 181:6 183:16 194:8 227:16 254:18 265:25 279:22 285:7 287:2 291:4 cleared 296:4 clearing 51:16 clearly 155:17 162:14 168:24 169:16 170:18 262:25 263:3 client 21:3 343:24 clinical 72:1 74:14 clinochlore 261:12 clip 313:23 clog 244:17 close 92:13 127:25 128:14 133:25 248:5 272:8 309:11 316:23 closed 23:1 128:3 closer 342:6 closes 128:7,7,14 closing 134:16 closure 128:9,13 134:15 closures 133:21 cloth 71:13 clue 266:2 clutch 34:16 coarse 319:21 320:17 cogliano 145:12 cohorts 344:25 coincide 193:12 coins 108:9 cold 142:17 college 260:12 color 329:12 330:3 338:14 341:19 Colorado 233:17 236:12 245:20 249:25 252:2,10 260:23 262:16 332:25 333:19 335:6 367:7 372:13,17 colored 318:6 column 291:10 columnar 341:12 come 18:15,16,17 18:18 28:2 55:20 60:19 106:19 128:4,16 158:8 210:24 227:16 229:13 257:25 272:9 315:20,22 315:25 317:11 353:8 367:24 comes 90:15 116:24 167:6 171:19189:11 comfortable 114:17 coming 121:14 218:10,12 324:3 349:24 comment 38:6,11 40:24 80:24,25 94:8 95:4,14 159:7 161:23,24 161:25 235:20 249:14 284:20 285:5 327:2 commented 106:10 comments 95:7 commercial 298:5 comminution 196:12,13,23 197:7 commission 379:25 commissioner 76:12 369:5 common 231:16 277:17 commonly 64:7 176:13 communicate 290:15,21 communicated 290:16,18,20 communications 304:24 305:2 companies 12:22 17:8,9,20,21,21 26:19 29:3 91:8 93:8,10,13 274:18 330:6 334:5 company 1:7 6:12 6:187:17,19 12:9 12:11,19 16:12,16 17:16,19 28:24 29:4,7,9,11,13,17 29:18,24,25 30:7,9 48:18 49:12 52:10 81:3,10 86:12 88:8 95:7,12 107:23 111:21,22 112:22,24 113:3 117:19123:6,7 124:11 131:8,10 136:22,25 137:7 137:10 148:1 162:25 164:19,24 166:6 174:10 190:11 220:7 231:4,6,19 274:21 275:1,2 276:8 284:7,11 307:7 308:4 309:9 313:7 323:24 333:13 364:5 company's 241:9 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [comparative - containers] Page 16 comparative 174:20 compare 255:25 334:16 compares 226:4,7 comparing 38:23 comparison 243:16 compensation 25:23 26:5 competent 254:22 255:6 competitive 231:4 competitor 17:20 complaints 273:11 completely 285:1 286:16 313:1 completes 234:6 completion 172:18 315:2 compliance 333:20 comply 166:7 component 182:6 222:4 components 223:3 composed 41:20 composite 67:10 211:12 composition 177:25 200:21 212:24 comprehensive 65:15 325:8 368:23 compromise 119:13 248:11,13 compromised 40:19 41:1,4,7 52:24 248:24 249:3 concentrate 345:17 349:6 353:2 354:24 concentrated 351:7 concentrates 352:16 concentrating 349:16 350:21,25 364:19 concentration 199:12 345:5,9 346:10 348:15 351:10 352:5,17 361:7,16 362:12 366:16 concept 49:14 80:19 83:12 concern 107:13 111:4 144:11 159:10 346:6 concerned 129:15 361:10,21 362:12 concerning 373:4 concerns 159:8 162:17 conclusion 117:16 129:17 227:24 228:5,8,16,24 229:15,20 299:7 304:5 305:13 conclusions 129:15 245:22 condition 141:10 141:17 265:6 conditions 290:7 conduct 117:1 conference 283:16 confidence 93:13 359:16 confidential 106:2 136:12 confirm 249:7 330:23 341:2 confirmed 120:22 250:24 271:20 291:3 306:15 340:21 347:21 conflating 83:10 83:12 214:11 conflict 161:4 165:7 confused 218:2 confusing 80:9 244:16 connection 10:11 10:16,17 72:8,16 conopco 6:24 conservative 310:14 consider 79:8 159:23 238:12 considered 79:4,5 81:2 111:12,13 133:20 153:16 339:18 consist 48:5 215:1 consistent 281:12 281:16 consists 181:25 238:1 257:9 320:16 consultant 12:20 13:12 159:14 160:22 161:15 233:17 236:13 247:5,6,13,22,24 248:11,14 249:19 249:22 252:4 269:21 326:14 consultants 252:5 260:15 266:23 309:6 324:25 326:10 367:2 consulting 13:14 247:18 consumer 29:3,9 29:12,23,25 32:1 63:11 66:22 67:9 67:10 94:23 95:1 95:25 139:10 144:10 148:1 287:14 308:21 328:16 329:22 consumers 68:17 69:2,4 70:24 105:11 143:21 144:19 265:8 contact 62:3 283:25 284:15 315:20,22,25 contain 31:2,4 32:5,10 38:24 41:24 42:5 64:14 64:20106:12 143:16 183:6 184:13 258:7 284:23 286:12 297:10 320:20 323:7 335:21 contained 31:17 31:21 33:8 35:22 70:15 96:22,23 97:1 135:16 185:19 200:21,23 217:13 224:17 297:21,25 298:11 303:9,13 319:13 container 115:10 containers 19:13 20:13 22:3 115:4 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [containers - correct] Page 17 115:6,10 157:6,13 containing 35:20 35:25 36:3,6 39:13,16 119:14 314:12 321:14 338:12 containments 213:14 contains 64:8 65:4 175:23 181:23 183:17 222:3 258:2 262:18,21 268:9 269:18 271:1 283:18 319:15 320:25 321:1 325:9 contaminant 102:1 175:25 188:3,10 contaminants 63:16 176:2 180:12,25 181:24 187:22,25 222:25 223:2 361:10 contaminated 89:4 contaminates 167:9 contamination 181:25 211:14 272:11 280:5 310:11 content 107:14,16 198:1 276:9 288:4 298:23 303:20 context 63:8 93:25 93:25 149:14 324:22 328:14 continually 353:4 continue 264:21 296:2 continued 6:1 7:1 8:1 contrast 64:7 control 19:16 107:1 118:15,16 119:4 controls 190:15 conventional 174:22 conversant 345:8 conversation 283:23 284:14 conveyor 167:6 convincingly 152:4 cooperate 191:4 copies 267:21 copy 46:6,6 212:20 264:13 342:22 cornerstone 124:10 129:4 135:13 cornstarch 138:4 138:10,20,24 139:14,22 143:8 143:16 240:19,25 241:17 corp 1:6 corporate 11:6,17 11:20 12:3,5 corporation 7:19 130:21 197:9 284:9 correct 10:9 11:14 11:15 13:4,6,7,14 14:2 16:5,11,20,21 17:12,13 18:25 20:14 24:18 29:5 29:8 32:15,20 33:17,21 34:2,6,11 34:25 35:21 36:7 37:4,8 38:21 40:6 40:12,13,15,15,16 40:1941:11,12,15 42:12,13,16,17,20 42:21,23,24 44:4 44:16,16 45:1,12 45:16,22 47:17,21 48:9 50:1,2,14,15 50:19,20 51:18 53:5 57:7,8,16,24 58:4,11,12 59:5,6 60:23,24 61:3,14 61:15 62:10,11,16 62:22 65:8,9,24 66:8 69:3,9,13,17 70:1,2,6,7,16,21 71:6 75:24,25 76:2,8 77:2 79:14 81:22 82:2 83:9 83:22 84:22 85:18 86:9 88:21,24 89:22,24 91:14,19 91:20 93:9,22 94:12 95:22 96:9 96:12,14 97:19 99:2,4,6,11,13,22 101:8 105:14,23 105:25 107:18,19 110:17,19112:6 113:23 116:19 117:2,3,23,24 118:23 119:1,2 123:8,20 127:12 128:22 129:12,25 130:5,17 132:8,9 132:21 134:5,6 135:3,16,17 137:16 141:3 142:1 143:23 145:8,22 146:11 147:5 148:13 149:21,22 151:11 151:15,16 157:9 158:4 159:2,15,19 160:25 161:17 162:23 164:5,10 164:11 166:25 169:11 170:17 172:13 173:4,9,17 173:18 174:4,5,11 174:12 175:13,14 176:10,14,16 177:12 178:2,8 180:2,3,6,16 181:2 181:8 182:9,23 183:3,7,24 184:22 185:4,5 186:14 187:4 188:25 189:21 190:1,18 191:13,16 192:3,4 192:10,11,20,23 194:23 195:9,13 195:24 198:8,24 201:15,22,25 202:1,6,12,18,19 203:6 204:7 205:1 205:10,16,18,21 206:24 208:14,21 209:5,15 210:17 210:18,21211:7 212:8 213:1214:9 214:10 215:4,13 217:20219:1,17 219:21 220:25 221:1 222:11 223:14 224:15,21 224:25 228:6,7 229:3 230:23 233:8,17,24 235:7 236:14 237:5 238:4,22 239:17 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [correct - currently] P age 18 241:6 243:4 247:9 247:23 248:1 249:19,20,23,24 250:1,2,7 251:21 251:25 252:20,21 253:6 255:9 256:24 260:6,16 262:1,4 264:3 265:23 266:23,24 267:17 268:12 269:19,24 270:3 271:2,6 273:8 274:20 275:10 277:10 278:7,13 278:21 282:15 285:9 286:6,21 287:18,23 288:8 288:17 290:9 293:19 295:12 296:21 298:13,18 299:14,15,24 300:23,24 302:16 302:18 303:5,6 304:3,12 306:3,10 306:25 307:17 309:3,7 310:5,25 312:11,12,21 313:4 314:13 317:5 319:11,19 321:18 322:12,21 323:16 325:12 328:21 329:1,7 330:8,16,17 334:25 335:4,5,14 335:18 336:20 340:22 344:12 345:24 347:5,20 349:24,25 350:12 350:19,23 352:8 354:11 355:3 356:2 358:4,5,14 359:21 360:24 362:25 365:3 366:16 corrected 208:5 305:5 correction 313:14 corrections 377:5 correctly 175:5 331:8 364:25 correspond 297:5 correspondence 280:22 305:6 329:11 cosham 315:4 cosmetic 32:8,13 32:23 46:19 47:13 63:11 64:8 71:4 90:1191:8,8 138:9 154:7,9,11 154:12,14,25 158:23 160:17 162:21 167:18 206:25 207:3,8 262:15 275:12 308:13 329:8 368:15 cosmetically 153:18 cosmetics 77:19 310:23 329:12,14 330:3,15 cosmich 7:12 cost 135:5 costs 111:6 cough 142:16 council 91:11 counsel 10:3 378:13,15 count 69:11 187:7 195:18 212:24 236:18,22 238:13 counted 193:12 195:17,19 countries 50:17 53:9,13 55:1 215:18 county 1:12:13:1 4:1 couple 65:21 349:22 course 62:3 93:6 187:16 220:14 244:6 250:22 264:4 265:4 305:14 311:22 322:11 346:3 court 1:1,19 2:1 3:1 4:1 9:21200:9 219:3 220:6 262:23 378:1,3 379:1 cover 133:23,25 150:15 185:7 300:8,14,21 374:12 covered 100:13 322:23 345:2 ' 354:1 cow 124:3,14 125:5,8,10,15,21 135:12 cpanatier 5:6 cralley 107:12 cramped 170:1 cream 73:21 74:23 75:5,11 143:4 creek 186:8 criteria 338:14 critical 247:8,10 247:15,17,23 249:17,18,21 criticised 245:13 245:15 criticism 245:16 279:19 critique 293:23 crocidolite 43:7 357:2 crop 92:3 176:21 176:22 crosetto 261:4 cross 157:17,18 crosshairs 193:10 193:12 crystal 322:17 crystalline 217:24 347:1 crystals 303:14,25 305:14 322:6 cs 7:15,16 ctfa 40:1149:22 51:20,21 90:12,24 90:25 91:6,7,13,16 91:18 92:4 97:15 97:17 119:24 158:25 162:11 165:2 166:7,16,18 255:11 294:12 295:1,7 328:9 329:5 351:2 352:3 358:11 360:18,23 ctpa 159:6,21,22 160:16161:20 360:17 370:4 current 116:13 133:21 160:15 291:14 336:25 currently 13:2 16:1 25:19 29:14 30:7 66:14 78:16 116:12 132:14 139:7 174:25 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [currently - dermatological] Page 19 356:11,17 curtailed 73:23 customers 15:21 42:15 69:7,11 70:18 114:10 137:12 cut 104:14 146:7 146:13 147:8 186:5 320:6 cyanamid 7:19 Cyprus 6:12 274:16,18 ________ d_______ d 106:25 368:1 dads 60:17 72:12 daily 37:13 dallas 5:5 damaging 110:11 110:15,16 dangerous 30:23 31:6,17,21 32:1 69:8,12 138:6 191:9,15 daniel 6:3 daniels 2:10 3:10 4:9 5:19 8:15 9:20 darlene 2:4 dartm outh 260:12 data 39:25 78:5,12 78:17 94:23 132:1 238:9 287:10,21 324:24,24 date 9:3 16:23,25 22:8,13,14,18 65:21 125:18 127:24 156:12 177:17,19 179:16 185:3 198:25 199:4 219:16,18 241:20 270:2 302:1,18 304:14 377:13 378:21 379:3 dated 22:17 52:3 76:11 184:24,25 188:25 192:5 203:6 223:13 225:9 266:25 296:18 301:25 dates 337:10 david 2:3 288:24 337:6 day 1:1126:25 27:2,5,6,9 55:19 206:15 289:19 365:25 366:10 379:22 days 26:24,25 27:3 27:4,8,18 237:15 287:5 288:23 289:11 290:8 340:3 364:15 365:17 dbr.com 8:9 dc 7:4 dead 354:5 dealing 33:9 142:16 160:9 163:14 188:1 359:12 deals 106:6 dean 346:14 374:4 dear 53:23 267:20 death 33:3 deaths 127:12 129:22 134:10 151:5 debatable 34:12 debate 37:9,20 decade 114:16 decades 22:20 34:17 68:1 113:23 149:8 330:9 december 46:15 136:12 198:24 233:23 238:2 decide 20:25 21:10 268:18 decided 24:17 204:10 decidedly 209:25 decision 134:24 declaration 152:20 369:21 decrease 187:22 deep 101:15,15,15 142:10 deeper 165:18 defendant 5:8,13 5:19 defendants 1:8 2:113:114:10 defer 10:14 define 31:8 41:20 43:3 71:7 127:18 135:22 323:20 356:20 357:11 defined 34:21 36:10,16 38:24 356:21 defines 324:2 342:11 344:1 355:24 357:10 definitely 229:16 definition 43:10 43:14 44:20 45:2 98:16 141:6,22 170:11 323:22 343:8,15,23 344:11 347:5 357:4,8 358:2,3 definitions 323:24 definitive 339:19 deformed 253:19 degrees 193:10 deirdra 1:19 9:21 378:3,20 deliberately 349:1 delineation 169:19 delve 107:20 165:18 demands 166:18 demonstrated 253:2 demonstrating 195:20 density 361:6 department 79:2 108:23 109:6 147:25 172:20,21 245:19 283:25 284:16 286:11 315:5 depend 18:5 depends 36:9 38:22 71:7 117:19 117:19,24 127:18 194:5,6 232:13 249:4 309:11 deponent 377:1 deposit 208:12,18 209:20 210:20,23 deposition 1:10 9:6 10:10 11:7 17:25 21:6 367:25 377:4 379:3 deposits 89:16 206:22 208:11 325:9 dept 370:9 derived 181:17 dermatological 71:23 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [describe - disproportionately] Page 20 describe 42:6 44:22 71:18 141:11 146:25 258:25 270:7 described 42:1,8 43:18 90:2 98:6 98:17 122:24 184:2 205:19 257:24 339:14 describes 211:20 319:21 322:17 description 41:24 41:25 341:9 368:8 369:2 370:2 371:2 372:2 373:2 374:1 375:1 376:2 designated 136:21 designating 224:2 designations 10:5 334:12 designed 32:9 96:7 detail 166:9 216:10 290:23 325:7 detailed 152:1 288:1 299:8 details 159:12 detect 99:21,24 100:1,1,2,5,22 101:21 187:10,10 331:24 359:21 detectable 99:24 288:4 331:6 332:4 detected 63:20,23 66:19 89:14 306:20 309:22 358:24 359:17,19 366:15 detection 332:12 349:9,10 350:7,23 352:17 359:6 determine 67:12 90:20 114:10,11 215:20216:16 297:10 298:11 determined 107:2 212:24 develop 54:2 132:1,6 239:12 359:16 developed 102:12 128:9 136:18 185:18 199:21 361:8 developing 138:12 143:3 development 15:14,22 23:10 74:1 103:25 356:8 developments 63:18 develops 143:1 devesa 103:17 devices 174:22 diagnosed 15:7 dialogue 53:20 diameter 310:2 diaper 71:14,15,21 72:4,16,18,20,25 73:3,18 74:9,21 diapers 71:12,13 differ 117:15 difference 43:1 67:14 99:21 120:19 168:24 215:20 249:8 305:14 differences 66:19 66:21 302:11 different 29:2 31:15 37:12,12 38:3,3 50:6 103:12 108:10 111:4115:5 126:22 137:4 139:16 140:2 166:10,10 175:2 182:20 186:7 188:15,16 193:16 195:19 203:13 205:4,4,9,14 206:22,22 229:17 232:6,6 238:17 239:7 245:23 248:20 262:14 297:14 308:21 315:10,20 317:21 333:23 341:19 343:10 344:19 362:1 differentiate 255:13 differentiated 169:16 difficult 194:12 difficulty 157:24 diffraction 90:18 91:1 165:19 216:14 235:7 239:9 253:23 254:22 255:4,8,13 255:22,23 256:3,4 256:15 258:5 272:7 277:2,4,7,20 277:22,24,25 278:6,12 281:12 282:16 292:5,6 294:2,3,4 297:8,10 299:21 331:25 334:24 353:14 dinner 139:19 dioxide 54:3 direct 215:17 direction 118:23 217:7 directive 333:14 directly 13:21 362:1 director 77:18 217:2 308:12 310:23 364:1 disagree 124:11 195:17212:19 254:14 disagreed 254:19 disagrees 74:2 disclose 31:5,9,18 disconnected 235:11,13 338:19 338:25 discredit 119:13 discuss 238:25 344:25 discussed 162:5 204:22 281:5 301:2 discussing 88:2 discussion 345:1 discussions 161:11 disease 15:14,17 15:22 34:6 37:3 38:5,8,9 57:23 96:8 149:16,18 152:5 265:21 diseases 129:25 dispersed 282:7 dispersion 336:16 338:7 339:12 375:14 displeased 191:2 disproportionately 211:13 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [dispute - earlier] Page 21 dispute 34:7,8 60:4,6 67:21,22 152:8 156:2,16,17 178:19 190:4,7 dissatisfaction 191:6 disservice 168:21 dissimilar 94:2 distance 207:3 263:8 distinguish 244:15 distribution 136:18,24 division 2:1 3:1 4:1 29:8,12 30:1 77:18 284:11 308:12 310:23 dlaterra 6:6 docket 2:6 3:6 4:5 doctor 247:19 249:17 267:5,10 290:25 327:15 doctors 62:9,15 64:19 191:6,12 192:6,7 document 28:17 46:4,11 47:1 49:11 60:20 65:17 76:8 85:8 92:24 105:19,23 126:7 136:5,10,17 158:16 163:19 178:14 181:11 184:10,11,24,24 188:8,20 191:21 197:4 202:23,23 206:15 210:12 212:4,15 215:9 217:13 218:19 223:13 233:21 258:13,14 266:22 280:17 285:14 288:14 293:4 313:19315:2 333:13 344:8 351:11,14 355:21 documentation 87:15 documented 124:6 124:13 141:13 documents 25:9 25:12 27:21,23 28:2,16 39:9 45:2161:8,9,10 72:7 81:16 87:19 87:25 120:5 122:10 130:14 172:9 178:6,7 179:1,6 194:2 207:21211:4 218:8 258:16 263:14 287:13 313:22 345:14 357:21 358:1 doing 25:17 50:20 50:22 74:21 81:18 118:3 121:6 122:12 131:12,15 131:15,21 145:2 169:21 183:20 197:2,11210:20 239:7 256:18 274:22 275:9 277:9 278:6 295:6 318:19 327:23 328:13 332:16,19 348:24 351:24 361:19 dollars 26:19 190:12 dolomite 183:2 193:13 200:22,25 261:12 263:6 domestic 227:1,2 227:21 228:13,14 229:13 dose 103:21 dots 255:24 double 91:4 196:21 214:16 301:6,9 340:7 doubt 36:15 177:23 256:11 douglas 1:3 doukas 5:19 9:20 dozen 20:17 22:3 dr 1:10 11:2,5 18:20 53:23 77:12 77:14,17 78:2 81:22 82:18 107:12 130:2 161:24,25 238:7 243:3,9,17,19,22 243:23 244:4 245:12,18,21,23 245:25 246:10,10 247:10,15 248:19 249:18,18,21,21 250:7,15 251:20 253:1,14,23 254:11,13,14,19 257:2 258:2 259:17 267:1,3,20 268:17 280:23 281:24 283:8,12 283:14,23 284:20 284:23 285:3,5,7 285:10,21 286:14 287:3,7 290:1,13 298:12 306:6 308:2,12,15,17,20 309:7,22 310:8 311:16 312:25 313:6 314:6 325:7 326:1,5,5,20 327:2 328:2 330:13,19 330:24 331:1,2,24 344:24 360:8 363:23 368:3 373:3 374:7 379:4 379:20 draft 159:6 161:20 161:21 drafting 345:4 361:5 drawn 129:15 dressings 338:4 drinker 8:7 drive 7:14 8:8,12 drops 201:11 drs 324:25 326:25 drug 140:15 141:2 141:7,8,8 142:5,6 291:3 drugs 74:14 drum 261:4 dry 71:19 139:18 139:18,21 due 23:19 duly 9:24 dumpster 23:3,19 dunst 5:19 9:20 dust 78:3,12 151:24 155:12,14 191:9,15 dusted 192:16 dusting 78:4,13 240:19 241:1,23 _____________ e _____________ e 5:1,16:1,17:1,1 8:1,1,3 368:1,6 earlier 18:22 105:16 114:17 130:14 133:15 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [earlier - essentially] Page 22 135:2,3 157:3 161:10 162:5 167:1,18 279:19 281:5 285:14 286:2 307:6 343:4 343:6 353:1 365:17 early 22:17 104:22 121:10 122:3 132:23 133:11 138:16 149:17 155:2 157:21,25 158:3,6 159:18 160:11216:8 240:20,25 241:19 241:20,21 242:25 245:14 255:12 274:14 easier 26:18 easily 39:7 123:22 142:22 east 49:13 eastern 338:4 easy 350:8 ec2n 1:17 9:7 economics 209:20 edge 259:5 edition 289:16 editorial 150:1,14 educate 137:10 effect 91:23,24 144:7 157:7 294:18 effects 63:14 155:12,25 efficacy 111:13 effort 116:17 egg 108:12,13,14 egt 175:10 180:1 eiermann 77:13 77:14,18 78:2 eight 26:25 27:4,9 340:3 either 10:15 35:18 119:21 123:11 131:25 146:8 151:5 314:12 electron 90:19 91:4 101:16 119:21 120:3,12 121:5 162:13 165:1,21 216:15 239:9 251:9 252:19 253:1,17 253:23 254:4,8,22 255:4,8,13,18,21 255:23 256:14,15 258:5 277:2,4,7,22 278:6 279:13 281:12 282:16 292:10,12,18 293:13,17,24 294:2,5,13,23 297:9,9 299:17,18 299:20 308:16 311:1 321:13,18 321:20 353:15 element 72:21,22 elements 182:20 eleven 160:15 elizabeth 6:18 ellis 5:9 elongated 343:18 344:2 else's 225:10 231:12,21 em 23:22 88:1 134:11 email 52:3,12,13 53:21 56:5,20 57:3 124:19 368:18 369:10 emails 41:2 124:19 emigrated 82:10 emphasis 276:8 empirical 74:17 employ 48:17 employed 13:2,5 25:20 112:23 343:23 employee 52:8 77:21 131:9 348:13 378:12,14 employees 16:22 94:21 131:2 289:14 290:12 374:7 employment 94:1 emtal 226:5 enclosed 267:21 enclosing 320:18 374:21 encountered 62:2 encourages 167:23 ends 174:16 201:7 energy 283:21 engage 119:8 england 16:13 22:7 109:9 148:20 148:21 149:5 155:6 156:3 english 344:24 enhance 73:13 136:1 enhanced 74:10 74:20 75:2,4 enhances 75:6 enjoyed 17:25 enstatite 181:18 ensure 10:16 50:21 90:15 215:22 295:1,4 329:13,22 356:12 ensuring 216:1 265:11 enter 39:2 entirety 299:19 entitled 61:11 65:15 130:3,13 136:10 223:16 234:1 266:16 entry 320:13 325:14 environment 36:23 94:4 129:18 environmental 103:15,18 104:5 287:9 290:3 equally 102:12 227:11 230:14 352:23 equidimensional 209:22 equipment 163:16 164:16 equivalent 213:3 213:21,25 349:16 360:17,23 err 38:18 errata 379:1 esdp 338:1 especially 63:15 76:19 82:1 327:21 esq 5:3,4,9,14,20 6:3,3,9,15,21 7:3,3 7:8,13,13,22 8:3,7 8:12 essence 349:11 essential 70:4 essentially 50:20 100:2 126:17 167:8 169:1,4 183:20 227:10 244:14 255:11 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [essentially - exhibit] 291:1 333:6 establish 199:20 established 151:6 182:6 establishes 160:19 estimate 268:8 269:17 270:25 274:10 282:8 307:22 341:5 estimated 310:1 estimation 305:15 et 1:72:103:10 4:9 34:17 137:12 183:2 275:14 317:14 333:24,24 372:21 etheridge 2:3,4 9:9 11:21 368:10 379:3 europe 53:14 54:25 216:10 220:9 european 12:22 215:18 evaluate 95:2,7,24 192:20 193:16 220:10 231:19 evaluated 192:16 245:18 334:7 evaluating 66:8,11 93:18 192:14 195:12 215:10 216:6,19 231:12 231:15,21,22 232:4 evaluation 197:2 200:16 210:20 218:25 225:10 231:2 239:5 372:11 evaluations 218:6 everybody 170:2 everyday 271:23 evidence 37:2 102:9,10,15,18 111:24 112:6,7 151:21 228:16 249:11251:17 258:4 259:18 346:15,16 354:11 evil 155:12 exact 22:16,18 30:13 51:10 114:22 156:12 170:9 241:20 exactly 152:10 exaggerated 78:13 examination 10:21 152:1 155:13 160:19 223:17 296:20,22 299:8 325:8 336:16 340:15 368:4 371:20 372:4 373:21 374:14,22 375:11,15,19 examinations 235:4 363:4 366:24 examine 162:13 254:23 298:10 367:18 examined 219:5 251:19 258:19 276:7 282:11 297:6,8 298:7 299:19 303:24 308:15 338:6 examiner 15:10 examining 298:4 example 100:11 350:8 excellent 191:3 exception 10:6 23:15 88:16 189:11 331:3 377:4 exceptions 88:17 excessive 78:15 exchange 351:15 exclude 162:6,7 165:22 166:1,8 167:5 217:8,8 241:8,10 excluded 163:9 167:7 305:15 excluding 209:19 347:15 exclusion 166:11 241:6 excuse 280:12 363:11 executives 16:1,3 83:24 exercises 117:22 exert 118:22,25 exhibit 46:4,8 51:25 52:1 61:5,6 65:11,13 76:5,6 105:20,21 124:15 124:16 126:4,5,6 134:15 136:7,8 145:5 150:8,9,10 152:13,14 158:17 158:18 172:2,6,7 173:19,20 177:5 179:3,4 184:17,18 188:21,22 191:22 191:23 196:2,3 198:17,18 202:24 202:25 204:15,16 Page 23 206:19,20210:13 210:14 212:5,6 218:19,20 221:3 223:9,10 225:2,3 230:16,17 233:20 233:22 235:19,23 235:24 239:15,16 242:23 250:4,5 256:21,23 260:20 260:21 264:9 266:20,21 275:17 275:18 280:18,19 282:23,24 286:25 287:1,3 288:21,22 293:6 296:12,13 300:11,12 301:12 301:13 302:9 305:17,18 307:5 313:23,23,25 324:5,6 327:8,9 332:23,24 336:13 336:14 339:23,24 342:21 344:15,17 355:16 360:1 363:21,22 365:23 365:24 368:8,9,10 368:11,12,13,18 368:20,23 369:2,3 369:7,10,12,16,19 369:21 370:2,3,7 370:12,14,16,18 370:20,24 371:2,3 371:5,7,9,11,13,15 371:17,23 372:2,3 372:7,9,13,17,19 372:23 373:2,3,7 373:10,12,15,20 373:23 374:1,2,4,6 374:9,11,13,16,18 374:21 375:1,2,6,9 375:14,19,22 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [exhibit - fda] Page 24 376:2,3,5,9,12,14 exhibits 45:25 46:3 133:24 exist 43:18 224:9 existent 295:16 existing 349:4 exists 43:21 218:1 expect 26:2 146:1 168:11 238:9 315:24 352:13 expectation 25:25 97:21 expected 156:1 expecting 26:24 experience 73:14 73:17 75:3 267:13 experiments 204:22 expert 13:15,17,20 14:4,13 35:3 54:18 55:21 106:9 110:21 146:2,9 152:25 159:5 218:6 252:2 257:19 259:17 268:23 271:10,11 expertise 12:12 55:4 216:2 312:2 experts 53:9,12,16 54:1,22,24 55:2 145:8,21 238:10 271:10 367:3 expires 379:25 expiring 18:20 explain 12:4 94:17 120:19 139:16 142:3 explained 164:13 167:1 191:5 explanation 355:6 exploration 315:5 explore 131:25 exposed 36:11 37:12 151:10 265:7 exposure 34:11,24 36:12 38:20 63:14 78:3,7,12 95:20 96:1,7 102:24 103:9,25 104:22 151:24 exposures 103:21 express 130:3 expressed 130:4,6 130:15 346:6 expressing 230:12 expression 124:9 125:7211:18 extend 75:18 extensive 73:11 239:4 extent 38:14 93:18 218:2 external 280:4 extra 134:25 135:5 175:11 180:1 226:5 extracted 322:6 extreme 162:9 extremely 306:19 exxon 17:21 eyepiece 193:9,10 ________ f_______ f 7:19,19 107:11 face 11:10 126:20 127:4 318:6,8 320:10,13,14 322:25 facet 111:12 facilitate 96:4 facilitator 75:8,18 facilities 215:20 338:6 facility 22:25 23:5 23:7 214:18 216:9 244:21 308:16 310:9 fact 23:140:5 41:13 42:14 57:9 58:7 61:8 62:22 63:22 68:25 94:15 113:4 146:18 149:24 155:10 171:17211:19 217:22 233:2 248:22 252:9 259:1,18 266:8 270:2 282:10 300:4 307:7 328:25 329:10 339:11 351:3 353:3 365:8 faction 264:23 265:15 factories 155:5 factors 103:15 factory 94:21 facts 289:25 factually 110:19 fair 13:13,16 15:22 31:19 32:5 32:6 37:3 38:6,10 38:11 46:24 68:20 84:24 87:16 101:7 137:15 152:5 156:22,23 176:24 311:19 316:23 fairly 62:14 120:25 146:24 156:19 158:16 fairness 192:7 fallen 126:19 falling 36:14 falls 168:1 false 277:14 289:18 familiar 150:3 178:13 207:20 237:11 family 190:13 far 17:25 25:19 26:20 38:17 42:5 49:13 57:7 107:21 108:2,21 109:3 135:11216:8 263:10 282:11 302:15 330:10 fashioned 71:13 fast 92:23 248:7 fatal 151:24 father 69:19,24 70:5 72:12,22 75:1 favorably 185:18 favour 319:2 fda 76:13,15,18,23 76:24 77:15,19 78:23 79:12 80:11 82:19 93:1,1,12,15 93:17,18,25 106:10,14,18 107:13 283:16 284:19 285:21 288:3 297:7 298:3 308:13,20 310:23 311:25 324:18 325:2,15 328:11 328:15,20,23,25 329:5,11,11,13 330:7,10,16,20 332:3 369:5 375:4 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [feathery - five] Page 25 feathery 320:17 february 188:25 333:1 334:18 375:10 federation 345:3 360:14,22 feed 183:2,7,11,12 183:17 187:3,9 217:15 feel 114:16 153:16 248:5 feeling 33:11 139:21,21 243:25 feels 168:3 243:23 284:25 286:15 310:14 feet 59:25 295:14 295:15 fellow 160:4 286:10 328:4 felt 163:1217:4 feudal 190:16 fewer 12:21 fiber 89:7,10,21 92:6,6 253:5,16 259:6 268:7,20 269:16 270:24 276:9,15 310:4 311:21 323:15,16 323:21,22 324:3 343:8,15 344:1,12 347:5,6,8 357:6,11 357:19 358:2 fibers 63:20 78:6 251:13 253:3,24 254:9 271:18,24 271:25 272:6,8 276:10,15,20,22 276:23 279:10,15 280:3 283:19 290:6 291:7 299:20,22 309:22 309:24 310:17,19 311:13,17,18,25 312:17,20,21 313:9,10 316:3 338:13,17 344:12 fibrous 89:24 159:10 160:20,20 160:24 161:16 164:9,10 165:5 166:1 168:19 180:12 181:7 185:20 193:13 200:5,12 217:14 217:19,25 218:3 225:23 226:2 251:11 257:10,17 257:21,22 258:1,3 258:10,11,22,24 258:25 259:2,7,8 259:10,11,13 263:15 312:3 327:1,4 356:21,23 356:25 357:17 358:3,10,20 field 55:4 193:11 251:18 fields 309:24 fifth 7:23 fighting 363:6 figueroa 6:16 figure 16:23,25 319:4 328:15 331:11 366:14 figured 240:23 figures 114:22 116:13 file 28:4,5 65:23 283:1,4 300:16 324:17 369:3 372:23 374:2 375:2 filed 26:16 files 373:16 filipinos 163:15 filled 152:20 film 363:12 final 91:21 117:15 118:14,14119:23 121:1 159:21,21 166:16 305:13 353:7 finally 145:15 financially 378:13 find 61:25 74:15 78:3 149:15,17 159:4 162:3 168:11,16,18 188:16195:5 203:9 204:7 205:17 211:24,25 216:11 232:9 251:10,10 272:6 272:20 281:11 283:19 285:11,15 292:23,25 293:1 302:11,12 309:12 309:14 322:24 323:1 349:21 351:19 359:17 377:5 finding 250:20 258:14 316:7 318:21 335:12 338:13 349:13,14 352:24 findings 63:16 260:13 284:20 285:4,5 309:7 finds 316:5 fine 92:15 146:18 153:9 188:6,13 208:6 214:4 248:4 253:2 276:15 279:22 332:17 338:21 339:2,2 fineness 121:18 finer 193:24 fines 111:1,5 176:2 197:24 223:2 264:22 265:3,13 finger 317:25 finish 75:11 260:9 339:3 353:23 finished 99:16 233:8,12 260:10 first 22:24 46:4 47:12 48:6 60:22 60:23 61:17 63:9 72:7 92:8 120:6 124:14 127:15 129:3 132:22 133:9 136:15 138:23 149:13 156:4 157:2 158:8 163:19 170:12 177:24 188:7 199:5 217:11 227:12 241:17,22 269:3 273:3 281:3 285:12 302:7 303:7,7 318:4 331:7 333:17 349:23 fishbein 150:15 369:19 fit 170:11252:12 268:20 five 109:12 130:16 156:7 172:24 175:2 182:14 220:21 239:7 280:14 337:25 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [five - free] Page 26 363:11,17 375:12 fixed 193:10 flag 61:18 62:23 63:5 65:2 240:13 240:16 flagged 236:5 240:13 flagship 122:25 123:1,4,5 129:7 135:12 143:15,18 143:23 flattened 23:1 flatter 209:22 fleet 8:24 9:3 flip 184:19 203:1 float 182:21 183:3 183:7,16,18 195:21 202:6 217:15 317:13 floatation 192:10 199:12 floated 183:1,22 183:23 187:3 227:1,20 228:13 229:13 floating 183:19 185:8 186:7,8 floats 182:15 187:4,9 195:8,9 201:4,7,19,22 floor 6:4 florham 8:8 flotation 167:11 167:13,16,23 168:2,4,7,9,12 170:8,23 171:2 183:20 185:18 186:14 187:19 195:11 199:16 203:15 208:20,24 211:6 221:7 263:18,21 264:1,3 265:10 flow 187:12 201:15 244:17 fly 80:25 focused 193:11 fold 349:14 foley 6:218:11 foleymansfield.c... 6:23 8:14 folks 114:2 140:5 198:22 355:18 follow 119:18 288:5 356:17 365:7,16 followed 156:5 255:17 335:17 361:7 following 12:20 172:17 213:3 228:9 229:21 235:2 236:17 281:10 289:19 298:21 333:21 follows 9:25 90:10 325:1 font 150:16 154:3 154:4,24 food 291:3 foot 295:11,11 315:19 316:7,15 316:23 footnote 338:10 foregoing 377:3 378:5,8 foreign 129:21 forever 330:10 forget 363:18,19 forgive 63:6 92:2 form 43:7,22,23 44:19 45:15,16 46:23 50:19 56:11 90:1 98:1 99:5,8 108:8 161:13,14 161:16,16 165:12 166:14 168:8,17 168:19 169:10,14 171:16 216:12,22 217:24 218:2,7 326:25 347:1 363:4,5 formal 330:4 formalize 356:11 formally 329:20 format 44:22 formed 326:24 former 52:8 77:21 forms 356:25 358:10,16,20 forth 85:5 forthcoming 54:2 fortunes 190:13 forward 40:7,11 61:18 269:9 forwarded 55:18 foster 257:2 283:24 373:8 found 41:23 64:13 64:20 75:23 84:15 98:20,25 99:14 119:9 140:7 151:8 155:25 191:1 198:6 201:19,20 202:12 203:9,11 209:14 222:8 250:21 253:24 254:25 258:16 268:7 269:16 270:24 272:22 276:20 280:4 298:13 299:22 300:1 301:2 303:5 304:1,16 305:13 307:18,19 311:2,4 311:7,9 319:18 331:2 346:25 361:10 364:18 365:2 four 12:16 25:18 26:21 76:24 81:18 109:12 137:4 237:15 239:7 276:20 285:6 337:13 338:8,15 340:6,12 341:2 344:9 fourth 78:1 fractions 174:21 176:1 223:1 fragrance 90:12 91:9 framework 87:21 france 12:18,19 55:11 franchise 122:22 122:24 129:5,7 135:12 frank 356:2 376:5 frankly 228:21 frazier 5:14 9:17 9:17 18:19,22 104:13 136:3 235:10 338:19,24 fred 159:13,14 160:16 164:22 361:8,16 362:1,6 free 48:25 49:2,10 49:19,22,25 90:16 97:16 98:3,10 237:2 238:12 283:15 284:21 285:6 295:5 299:10 364:21 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [freed - go] Page 27 freed 331:2 freedom 48:7 50:4 51:20 90:12 162:22 164:4 165:15 215:1,12 frenchman 55:11 friday 251:5 253:23 328:9 front 77:17 106:7 150:15 172:1 309:23 frost 5:9 8:7 9:15 9:15 10:9 18:14 18:17 21:2 46:7 92:13,17 150:10 150:12 171:3,6,9 171:11,14,20 172:4 181:10,13 186:23 206:7,10 207:12 235:18 248:2,5 264:14,16 293:4,6 313:20 320:4 332:16 355:14 363:15 fulfills 141:13 full 82:19 226:23 fuller 82:18 308:8 308:9 327:10 328:2 344:20 369:7 374:18 375:6 fully 31:5 fumes 126:25 fund 119:3 funded 113:21 funding 118:6 funnel 333:14 further 130:9 197:13 211:19 216:12 290:4 378:12 future 334:16 ________g g 110:9231:1 270:8,11 272:8 356:4,6 372:10 gaffrey 5:20 9:19 9:19 125:18 gained 60:15 gamble 7:17 garnet 320:19 gavin 81:20 general 36:22 49:16 54:10 59:1 87:21 176:12 222:10 328:14 generally 71:4 84:18 87:23 102:6 110:10 111:15 115:5,8 168:15 278:16 295:14 317:4 generated 78:14 253:16 generations 63:13 74:18 123:16 329:9 generic 80:18 83:12 geologist 44:21 45:17 89:25 189:16 222:7 314:7,8 371:18 geologist's 211:17 geologists 43:22 162:1218:6 geology 234:1 245:19 260:12 314:17 318:25 372:15 george 356:8 germenasca 190:15,17 getting 73:5 93:20 118:4 119:22 157:24 167:19 219:12 248:5 269:23 334:4 349:13 giant 95:10 give 30:14 114:18 118:1 122:11 139:20 245:4 248:20 264:13 268:25 277:14 279:1 280:20 293:15 301:20 302:5 336:11 342:2 given 21:18 98:16 114:19,21 120:16 161:23 204:25 302:6 312:5 352:3 gives 175:3 240:6 242:5 270:4 337:9 giving 266:7 glass 23:8 100:21 101:22 155:18 192:17 350:8,10 glaxosmithkline 7:11 12:9 17:21 global 48:151:2 163:25 214:7,25 215:12,14 216:24 217:2 globe 51:4 go 10:22,25 23:19 25:8 27:17 39:8 52:12 61:22 63:5 65:2,12,19,20 66:3 66:16 67:7 68:11 77:17 82:13 84:22 105:16 107:11 110:8 111:10 133:22 136:9,15 137:23,23 140:3 140:19 144:1,23 145:5,11 150:8 151:18,19 152:13 153:7 154:3 165:19 166:9,21 167:1 169:1,6,14 171:23,25 172:6 173:21 174:2 175:17 177:2,6 182:10,11,13 184:19 188:7,23 190:9,21 191:24 192:13 193:20 195:1 197:16 198:4,19 200:15 201:4 202:3 203:1 203:1,8 204:17 211:10212:7,14 216:12 217:3 223:11 224:14,20 225:4 229:10 232:2 234:12 237:14 240:12 242:3 248:9 249:5 249:11 253:12 268:2 269:9 275:19 278:3 279:24 282:19 283:11 285:16 288:13 289:24 291:8,23 292:11 292:20 293:11 295:15 298:20 305:16 314:1 319:10,25 320:2 321:5,8 322:5,8 324:7 325:25 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [go - hammersmith] Page 28 336:23 339:4 341:9 343:9 350:7 358:8 367:17 goals 199:19 goes 21:6 57:6 68:12 129:6 183:3 190:12 227:5 253:18 307:7 315:16 330:10 going 21:241:23 42:5,10 46:2,5 47:8,9 56:22 60:13,19 61:9 63:8 65:1 66:4 72:2 74:15,22,24 75:1 81:11,12 84:22 87:17 92:13 98:2 100:11 101:14 104:20 105:10,20 108:18 129:2 139:1 146:17 149:16,20 150:6 158:4,15 159:18 169:6,24 169:25 171:1 172:8 173:12 174:2 177:2 178:4 178:24 181:5,5 184:19 192:5 202:20 204:3 206:7 209:2,9,10 211:24212:19 218:8 235:21 236:7 238:19 243:21,24 248:2 249:2,16 263:5 266:4 270:12,20 279:25 292:25 297:2 301:11 302:2,12 309:12 310:21 313:18,21 316:20 317:20 319:25 324:7,11 325:13 331:25 332:12 333:12 334:10,11,15 335:19 336:1 341:18 349:20 350:10,15 351:14 352:4 354:4 356:14 361:17 362:13,15 363:9 365:22 good 12:25 19:7 19:11 59:25 107:22 131:14,19 133:24 134:2,16 134:22 136:3 139:24 168:3 194:12 199:24,25 244:20 246:25 267:5 275:25 277:12 292:14 320:10,24 322:10 323:1 329:24 351:24 366:22 google 17:22 gordon 247:21,22 gotten 104:14 goudie 267:1,3,20 305:19 306:4,6,11 306:11 325:1 344:20 360:10 374:13,16 gouverneur 208:12,15 209:24 govern 46:23 governing 328:12 government 94:6 94:20 95:24 361:1 grab 171:25 grabbed 126:19 grade 64:7 85:12 86:16 106:10 161:6 165:9 169:5 175:10 189:10,12 189:13,19,24 220:21 262:11 grades 47:13 175:2 189:8 grains 180:14 281:11 gram 271:18 366:6 grams 362:6 grand 6:22 grantham 65:15 66:8,11,20 67:10 267:22 368:23 373:18 granules 180:13 great 82:4 131:4 309:7 greater 142:8 191:8 357:12 greenstone 5:3 greer 7:13 grids 251:5 299:18 grieger 373:15 grinding 167:9,11 grit 180:21,24 181:1,6,6 200:3 217:13 grittiness 182:16 groseclose 6:21 gross 17:11 ground 120:23 121:1,18,24 122:2 183:12 231:24 grounds 95:23 group 7:17,18,20 23:10 52:20 53:5 53:7,11 54:1,21 55:1 56:2 109:6 145:21 146:2,2,10 146:17 174:7 357:1 360:20 guang 88:22 guess 26:7 42:18 52:24 73:5 79:25 112:13 116:8,11 121:13 131:7 211:17216:5 252:23 273:17 283:2 301:8 guessing 258:9 guide 159:6 160:16 guidelines 96:3 gunter 35:6 guy 125:25 243:13 248:18 315:6 352:15 354:25 364:3 guys 79:25 212:16 226:14 263:11 271:9 283:2 314:16,19 317:3 355:18 360:16 367:16 gym 59:24 h h 368:6 hah 291 22 half 20:17 22:3 60*23 115-9 278-23 279-5 310*3 ham 209:3,5,7,9 hamer 337-6 hammersmith 222:3 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [hammondsville - hospitals] Page 29 hammondsville 207:8,17 208:3,18 208:21,24 209:5 209:11,20 210:20 210:23 211:7,25 219:13 221:22 234:2 273:19,20 hand 61:1 139:22 167:7 168:8 189:13,24 285:10 handle 362:8 handles 310:9 handwriting 331:15 handwritten 173:6 331:10 374:11 hanging 285:12 315:19 316:18,23 happen 108:3 128:19 350:15 happened 365:9 happens 68:8,9 86:11 250:14 266:13 happy 249:14 haque 105:4 harassing 248:6 harassment 10:6 hard 331:11 harder 194:3 hardy 1:16 5:14 9:6 21:18 372:21 harm 58:4 243:23 harmful 69:16 70:10 291:16 harris 7:8 harrisbeach.com 7:10 hawkins 6:15 hazard 37:18 132:2,6,15 153:14 153:24 154:10,16 154:20 155:2 346:16,19 366:20 hazardous 37:17 149:14 hazards 70:1 104:6 head 158:22 333:6 headache 141:17 142:8,16 heading 154:6 229:15 257:25 290:25 headquarters 16:6 21:14 health 61:13,25 63:17 64:8 104:10 107:12 111:14,25 116:18 172:12,21 370:8,9 healthy 57:20 heard 125:7 231:7 heart 141:17 142:6 heat 253:16 heavily 265:7 heavy 154:24 held 9:6 help 39:10 43:14 46:11,23 72:4 96:7 137:10 141:18211:5 244:17 287:2 helping 159:23 henderson 6:8 henry 6:9 herford 1:3,3 6:19 6:24 7:25 8:10,15 9:8 11:18 368:9 379:3 herrington 7:2 hesitate 82:22 hey 55:19191:11 hiding 194:15 high 107:16 125:25 161:6 165:9 167:19 169:5 175:3 189:10211:13 253:3 254:6,8 262:10 359:16 higher 115:22 154:3 168:18 169:10 201:13 239:12 251:12 273:24 294:8 349:19 highlight 47:24 63:8 64:5 82:16 129:3 151:1,19,20 174:19 175:6 180:9 181:15 190:21 238:11 240:14,15 252:24 282:4 highlighted 61:22 64:25 150:23 174:17 240:3 highlights 106:7 highly 153:16 282:9 hildick 81:20 82:4 237:20 326:25 344:20,24 369:13 373:23 hillerdal 103:20 hire 248:22 histologic 152:1 historic 20:17 historical 29:25 30:8 41:19 80:24 157:11 historically 59:4 59:16 60:7 71:8 72:1 history 63:1 190:10 309:8 hm 155:14 hmm 59:12 80:4 115:3,18,24 121:9 126:14 142:12 154:5 157:23 158:5 233:4 259:4 318:18 hoagland 5:19 9:19 hoaglandlongo.c... 5:22 hold 353:23 holdings 7:18,19 holds 190:14 holes 127:24 128:1 128:15 133:23 244:17 home 23:22 60:16 94:3 hope 119:5 122:13 hoped 61:24 hopefully 287:2 348:7,20 hopkins 1:10 9:10 9:23 11:1,2,5 18:20 53:23 368:3 369:21 370:3 372:19 377:3,12 378:5 379:4,20 hospital 238:8 290:1 hospitals 61:2 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [hostile - indefinite] Page 30 hostile 119:9 hour 26:15 27:14 92:14,19 206:7 332:22 hours 12:21 26:21 26:25 27:2,4,6,9 363:18 house 59:10 houston 5:10,16 hptylaw.com 6:17 hughes 130:2 human 100:13 hundred 68:19 133:5,6,14 349:14 350:9 366:6 hundreds 25:11 271:17 273:6 hurst 8:3 hypotheses 228:20 hypothesis 38:12 39:5 226:23 228:23 352:4,6 hypothetical 38:23 80:5,8 81:4 81:7,9 93:5 94:8 94:15,17 95:3 133:16 hypothetically 66:12 83:20 i i.e. 331:6 il9 319:7,10 321:25 322:1,7 i20 322:7 i41 320:9,10 322:25 i46 318:4,5 ian 158:22 275:25 326-18 370-4 iarc 39:20 40:2,3,4 40:8,14,14 52:20 53:7,11,22 54:2,11 54:15,21 56:2 145:6 146:17 idea 260:1 313:12 ideal 252:15,16 366:21 identical 200:20 302:3,9,15 identifiable 22:11 identification 46:3 46:8 52:1 61:6 65:13 76:6 105:21 124:16 126:5 136:8 150:9 152:14 158:18 172:7,19 173:20 177:5 179:4 184:18 188:22 191:23 196:3 198:18 202:25 204:16 206:20 210:14 212:6 218:20 221:3 223:10 225:3 230:17 233:22 235:24 239:16 242:23 250:5 256:23 260:21 264:9 266:21 275:18 280:19 282:24 287:1 288:22 296:13 300:12 301:13 305:18 307:5 313:25 324:6 327:9 332:24 336:14 339:24 342:21 344:17 355:16 360:1 363:22 365:24 identified 28:8 251:11,13 254:4 254:10 261:19 272:7 276:6,15,23 277:1 306:7 318:12 identifies 22:7 253:4 316:3 identify 9:11 255:6 311:5,7 identifying 256:16 ifs 241:24 ignore 109:25 110:1 ignored 39:24 107:21 108:1,2,21 108:22 109:1,3,17 ignoring 109:17 ii 198:7 232:3 illemenite 261:13 image 322:3 images 311:1 imbed 240:7 242:6 imerys 6:12 immediately 75:24 76:1 87:10 immune 102:11 imperative 106:12 implicated 119:13 264:23 265:19 327:1 important 24:9 25:7 72:24 73:1 73:25 74:3,19 143:5 168:19 220:1,6 242:16 264:21 292:22 296:2 345:2 impression 277:15 improper 118:22 118:25 improve 200:1 improvement 135:24 improving 191:3 inability 255:13 inasmuch 191:8 209:21 incapable 70:6 inch 295:12,12,13 295:13,18 inches 295:15 incidences 127:2 include 43:15 109:6 142:4 170:16,18 208:24 257:21 348:25 349:2 included 27:18 98:4,9,18 114:2,5 includes 48:3 222:10,17 including 28:6 63:12 165:16 193:17 222:24 247:7 255:18 308:3 313:7 315:18 337:21 344:19 inclusions 320:20 321:2 322:21 323:7 inclusive 151:5 incorrect 244:7,9 290:4 increase 187:23 263:22 increased 72:16 104:3 349:14 increasing 197:25 indefinite 339:15 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [independent - issue] Page 31 independent 117:1 238:10 247:24,25 252:7,7 329:16 367:3,4 index 192:18 india 220:9 indian 49:12 indicated 96:16 346:16 366:24 indicates 56:15 59:22 78:18 79:16 79:21 83:3 93:2 229:18 indicating 200:10 200:11 indication 107:8 253:14 individual 14:9 37:11 38:3 95:16 102:16 108:22 112:15,23 130:15 130:18 131:10 162:24 266:13 303:25 individual's 95:4 113:11 individually 2:8 3:8 4:7 7:16,19 individuals 35:18 37:16 58:2 62:4 77:1 95:7,9,14,16 114:11 130:23 136:24 151:10 189:3 industrial 148:15 149:6,18 207:5 209:7 273:23 274:1 industries 220:1 industry 40:19 41:5 52:23 247:6 328:13,20 329:6,9 337:1 352:2 infallible 339:13 infant 68:1 128:21 infants 66:23 67:4 67:13,18 infinity 57:12 influence 117:1,22 117:23,25 118:1,3 118:6,9,10,22,25 influenced 117:8 117:12 information 60:9 61:13 62:8,15 63:15 66:2 93:20 289:18 312:25 313:1 330:7,23 331:1 informative 62:1 infrared 91:3 162:14 165:21 216:13 294:6 ingredient 31:14 31:18,21 139:7,8 ingredients 31:6 31:13,13,19 32:1 113:22 inhalation 39:16 58:15 126:22,24 inhale 68:2,5 126:24 191:9,15 inhaled 346:20 initial 121:16 183:12 256:10 292:6 initially 122:7 294:14 296:3 initiate 131:24 initiated 253:16 injurious 155:25 ink 135:5 innovant 372:19 input 40:23 inquiries 137:11 328:10 inside 108:14 136:16 150:22 297:3 326:24 insignificant 297:21 303:9,13 insisting 243:18 insofar 111:18 inspect 106:14,19 inspection 302:7 inspector 151:7 155:5,17 instance 32:9 51:7 171:18 197:23 201:18 instances 149:21 instantly 342:13 institute 174:4 184:22 196:5 210:16 220:12 221:19 372:14 institution 62:19 63:2 122:17 135:12 247:1 instructional 138:11 intend 349:2 intended 128:2 215:17 intensive 206:15 intention 145:9 146:3,20 inter 295:9 interest 2:8,9 3:8,9 4:7,8 7:18,20 63:17 78:2 243:16 interested 63:17 117:2,8,13,14,21 220:4 378:16 interesting 43:17 268:15 336:10,11 interests 119:10 interfere 118:13 intergrown 320:17 interim 304:19 internal 72:6 97:11 136:18 237:15 304:20 internally 342:11 344:1 international 39:12 40:4 interpretation 331:14 intimately 231:6 320:17 introduction 47:11 174:23 invert 128:3 investigated 177:25 investment 129:9 involve 345:5 361:6 involved 15:126:8 26:9 56:22 327:11 328:15 345:12 378:13 involving 13:25 14:16,18,19 142:10 irma 4:3 isaac 7:13 isolated 303:14 issue 10:17 38:1 81:13 82:1 84:2 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [issue - jo h n so n ] Page 32 107:24 127:21 131:11,11 159:9 160:9,15 204:10 229:17 249:12 266:11,14,16 292:2 309:7 328:12 330:20 350:21 365:6,8 issued 159:22 342:25 issues 106:6 136:19 159:25 215:23 328:21 349:22 italian 66:21 67:11 85:15,24 86:3,7,25 87:4,10,12 88:2,5 88:13 89:1,2,7,9 96:15,20 173:16 174:21 175:23 176:10 178:1,6 180:5 181:17,23 182:25,25 183:6,6 185:8,17,22 186:8 186:11 193:21,23 195:9 196:21 197:24 199:12,21 200:16,19,20,23 204:23,24 215:11 217:23 218:5 226:4,7,14,21 227:8,18 228:3,5 228:19 229:1,8,16 230:7,13 232:7,23 261:4,5 262:4,11 263:11 314:17,20 314:23 315:3 325:8,20 346:2 348:16 361:9 362:24 364:20 373:17 374:22 italy 85:13 175:1 188:25 212:23 218:11,13 262:17 370:21 iw 364:22_______ _______ J_______ j 5:9 282:9,9 j&j 21:2125:9 33:10 45:3 46:22 51:15,16 64:19 71:24 72:7 73:6 73:10 79:5 120:1 123:18,24 140:4 141:11 143:15 159:5 175:15 219:6 220:21,25 248:17 252:6 284:2 285:5 296:7 304:25 306:17 326:6,14 331:2 352:10 366:10 369:3 370:20 372:21,23 373:7 374:2,7 375:22 376:5,6 j& j's 51:19 285:5 336:18 j200 49:9 j4 294:12 295:1,7 352:3,7 358:14 j4-l 91:18 92:4 97:17 294:18 358:11 jack 8:7 jack.frost 8:9 jackson 7:14 jagged 155:18 jam a 148:8 149:5 152:9 369:19 jan 375:7 january 76:11 78:22 158:19 177:10,17 199:2 225:9 328:7 jbp 369:13 374:14 375:20 jersey 2:13:14:1 5:21 8:8 16:9,10 338:5 jjbp 204:3 jnjaz5 373:24 jnjaz55 368:24 369:9 370:13,17 370:23,24 371:5,7 371:15,21,23 372:8,12,16,18 373:6,19,22 374:17,20,24,24 375:5,8 376:4,13 376:15 jnji4t5 369:11 jnjmx68 369:6 370:11 371:11,13 372:24 373:9,11 374:5,8,10,12,15 375:21 376:8,11 jnjnI61 368:16,18 368:21 369:15,18 370:6,15,19 371:3 371:9 372:6 373:14 374:3,8 375:13,18,24 job 1:25 118:4 131:18 169:22 248:23 252:9 328:3 333:5 john 1:10 9:10,23 11:1 52:25 368:3 370:3 377:3,12 378:4 379:4,20 johnson 5:8,8,13 5:13 7:6,6,25,25 8:10,10 9:9,10,15 9:16,17,18 10:4,4 11:6,7,11,11,14,14 12:7,8,11,12,15,15 12:18,18,21,22 13:2,3,5,6,19,19 13:21,21,22,22,24 13:25,25 14:1,13 14:13 15:12,15,16 15:20,20,21,21,25 15:25 16:6,7,14,14 16:17,17,19,19 17:7,7,18 20:12,22 20:23 22:7,7 24:8 24:8,23,23 25:3,3 25:20,20,22,22,25 25:25 26:6,6 28:8 2 8 :8,23,24 2 9 :2,2 29:3,3,6,6,12,12 29:17,17,19,20,22 29:23,23,23 30:1,1 30:4,4,6,6,22,22 31:1,1,4,5,16,16 32:4,4,13,13,18,18 32:23,23 33:2,2,7 33:7,20,20,22,22 33:23,23 34:1,1,5 34:5,10,10 35:2,17 35:17,20,20,24,24 36:4,5 38:14,14 39:11,11 40:11,11 41:13,13,1642:11 42:14,14,18,18 44:24 45:20 47:14 47:14 49:18,21 51:22,22 52:8,8 57:5,18,18 58:1,1 58:7,7,9,9,10,10 58 : 14, 14, 16,16 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [johnson - johnson's] Page 33 59:5 61:10,10 62:7,7,13,13,18 63:22,22 64:13,13 66:7,7,10,10 67:2 67:2,17,17,25,25 68:17,17,22,22,24 68:24 69:6,6,7,7 69:10,10,25,25 70:23,23 71:5,5 72:14 73:8 74:4,4 75:21 76:7,7,15,15 76:25,25 77:5,5,21 77:22 78:22,22 79:2,2,12,12 80:11 80:11 82:18,21,21 83:10,11,11 84:3,4 84:8,8,8,9,13,13 85:10,10 86:7,7 89:1,1,2,2 90:4,5,6 90:7 91:2,2 92:5,5 92:25,25 93:6,6,16 93:16,20,21 94:10 94:10,16 95:10,10 95:19,19,23,23 96:6,6,14,14,21,21 97:10,10,21,21,24 98:11,11,20,20,25 98:25 99:14,14 102:6,6,14 105:9,9 105:22,23 112:10 112:10 113:17,18 113:21,21 114:8,8 116:17,17,24,24 119:3,3,8,8,12,12 119:17,17,20,20 120:8,8, 11,11 121:5,5 122:16,16 122:21,21 123:10 123:11 124:2,2 126:6,6 127:15,16 128:5,11,11 130:15,15,25,25 131:2,2 133:3,3,13 133:13 135:6,6,13 135:15,18,23,23 136:11,11 138:19 138:19,23,23 139:5,5 140:13,16 140:16 141:24,25 144:9,9,18,19 147:15,15,16,16 149:13,13 152:25 156:21 157:8,8 158:10 159:15,15 160:8,8 161:8,8 162:12,12 165:11 165:11,25 166:1 166:13,13,14,15 172:10,10 173:16 173:16,22,22 174:25 175:1 177:14,14 178:14 178:14,20,20 185:2,2,3,3,22,23 189:2,2 191:10,10 196:22,23 197:11 197:12,12,12 199:1,1 203:20,20 204:10,10 206:23 206:23,25 207:7,7 208:13,13,14,14 210:16,16,24,25 212: 10, 11,22 213:24,24 214:4,4 215:10,10 216:6,6 218:9,9 219:8,8 220:2,3,7,7 221:9 221:9,12,12,25,25 230:22,22 233:16 233:16 236:3,3 239:25 240:1 241:4,5,12,12 244:25,25 245:17 245:17 247:7,7,18 247:18,22,23 249:19,19,22,22 250:7,7,15,15,22 250:22 254:14,14 255:17,17 257:15 257:16 259:20,20 266:10,10,10,11 267:2,2 271:5,5 273:4,4,10,11,16 273:16,20,20,23 273:23 274:3,13 274:13,22,22,24 274:25 275:1,1,4,4 275:8,8 281:19,19 281:23 283:17 284:21,21 285:8 286:19,19 288:25 288:25 289:3,4,13 289:13 290:12,13 294:14,15 295:8,8 296:20,23,23 297:4 298:7,9,9,16 298:17 299:9 304:18,18 306:24 306:24 308:25,25 309:6,6 310:22,22 311:24,24 312:10 312:11 315:4,4 323:20,20,23,23 324:2,2,17,17 326:10,10 329:4,4 338:15,15 342:10 342:11 344:1,1,11 346:19,19 347:5 348:12,12,13,13 351:3,3 352:8,8 353:10,10 354:23 354:23,25,25 355:23,23 356:8,8 357:10,10 367:19 367:19 369:16,16 379:3,3 johnson's 15:13 17:18 19:13,17 20:12 23:16 32:1 35:3 37:23 41:16 42:11 44:25 45:21 49:18,21 57:5 59:5,9,10,17,23 60:5,21 62:17,18 63:1,2 64:14,20 65:4 67:12 72:15 72:17 73:5,8 75:21 79:10,11 80:10,16 82:18 83:11,15,17 90:4,7 94:14,16 97:24 102:14 114:19 115:1 126:12 128:5 133:3 135:11,13,15,18 138:3,5,9,13,15 140:13 141:23 143:19,22 152:25 156:21 157:2,7 158:10 189:20 203:19,25 204:3 204:11206:25 212:22 215:24 219:23 226:15 238:3 252:20 253:25 254:9 257:7 281:23 283:17 285:8 286:6,12 287:10 289:18 293:19 296:20,22 297:4 298:7 299:9 303:5 306:25 311:2,12 336:17 337:25 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [johnson's - langer] Page 34 340:15 344:11 347:5 375:16 johnston 364:7 jordan 1:19 9:22 378:3,20 journal 129:25 148:11,15,20,21 149:5,6,24 150:18 328:11 journals 148:5 149:4,7 jpmorgan 5:15 jromano 7:24 julia 7:22 july 152:16 179:14 192:8 223:13 239:20 256:24 257:15 373:4 jump 92:2 101:16 jumped 84:24 june 126:9 208:8 242:24 244:2 282:25 287:4 288:15 289:16 344:18 346:18 355:25 360:3 363:23 364:15 365:1,25 376:4,10 376:12,15 junior 266:1 267:10 jurisdictions 10:12 __________ ________ k_______ k 7:19,19 k&j 371:19 k3:l 343:19 kagan 5:49:13 293:8 kalmer 130:2 kane 103:1 kathleen 5:14 9:17 keen 265:9 keep 132:19 133:10 134:12 135:6 147:16 168:20264:7 317:24,25 337:2 keeping 134:17 kept 23:22 key 215:24 289:24 kfrazier 5:17 kid 127:20 kill 32:24 kilogram 175:10 kind 29:1 39:1 68:24 73:13 74:15 90:5 102:19 138:12 148:17 172:8 271:22 285:11 317:24 320:6 331:11 367:16 kinds 166:10,10 king 7:22 kingdom 1:17 9:8 kits 60:22 61:1 kleinjans 104:2 knew 70:10,14 84:9 146:16 306:24 366:15 know 18:6,15 22:4 28:20 30:3 34:15 35:6,8,14,15,17,19 36:18 38:15,20 55:9 70:19 81:20 82:8 93:12,15 100:12,19 101:25 108:3 111:18 112:25 113:7,7,10 114:22 116:13 120:14 124:20 130:14 137:21 138:25 139:2 146:16 147:6 157:17 158:9 161:21 166:14 168:15 169:18,21 174:6 184:7,11 189:16,19 197:7 197:14 198:14 204:9,12,24 208:5 209:2 212:20 218:4 219:5,7 221:24 224:9 231:5,6 233:14 236:4 238:3,8 241:7,7 243:2 248:3 254:18 264:5 265:4 266:4 267:12 268:23 273:13 274:23 286:1 287:12,23 290:8 292:2 300:22 301:4 304:18 311:22 312:9 313:11 316:13 318:10 328:2 333:6,25 334:2,3,8 337:6 343:6 352:2 353:22 354:4,12 357:10 358:14 359:6 361:19 362:23 363:1 366:21 knowing 291:15 knowledge 24:2 214:11218:12 219:4 220:18 259:25 266:19 291:14 313:8 330:21 known 34:10,24 37:7 58:25 63:21 71:9 108:15 123:15 153:14,24 154:10,16,20 209:23 konigsberg 6:2 kslaw.com 7:24 _________ I__________ 1 2:6 3:6 4:5 42:2 lab 267:16,17 272:25 label 31:12 138:5 178:16 186:17 labeling 132:16 138:11,12,15 laboratories 302:4 310:13 313:2 laboratory 66:19 118:11 174:22 292:14 lakeside 8:12 lakeysha 7:13,15 lancet 148:22 landrigan 103:4,8 langer 238:8 243:3 243:17,23,24 246:11,15,16,17 246:18,19 247:11 247:16,23 249:18 249:22 250:7,15 251:13,20 253:1 253:15,23 254:11 254:13,14,19,25 256:18 277:9 278:3 280:23 281:24 283:12,14 283:24 284:15 285:7,10,21 286:5 287:3,22,23 288:6 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [langer - locked] Page 35 288:15 289:11 290:1,13,21 291:12 293:17 373:3,23 langer's 244:4 284:20 285:5 language 271:23 lanzo 6:6 large 17:22 28:3 129:9 167:23 218:2 263:22 320:19 larger 154:4 167:21 largest 17:9,11 lastly 304:4 late 22:17,17 41:22 59:10 132:23 133:10 138:16 157:21 158:3,12 laterra 6:3 latest 331:1 latin 42:1 53:13 54:24 199:24 lattice 108:12 laurent 6:19 law 2:13:14:1 law.com 7:15,16 laws 141:8 lawyers 13:24 21:5,21 26:4,6 152:25 lay 62:3 271:23 lead 226:21227:8 228:3,19 229:8 230:6 240:8 242:7 315:6,6 leading 162:1 leah 5:49:13 171:25 191:21 learn 95:6 149:13 learned 189:10,12 learning 176:7 leave 13:9 125:5 334:17 led 229:23 lee 356:4,6,8 376:5 left 12:19 13:13 48:17 236:2 304:14 length 309:25 lesser 63:20 lest 190:25 letter 55:10 95:13 118:17 146:6 147:8 158:19 159:25 185:7 215:14 237:25 288:23 292:25 293:2 365:14 370:3,7,20 371:17 373:7,10,23 376:5 376:14 letters 76:18 249:11 level 34:11,22,24 36:9,10,15,16,17 36:18,22 37:2,7,17 37:18 38:15,20 39:1,2 40:2 58:15 58:19,25 78:3 80:3 83:19 94:22 101:6 167:19 239:12 284:24 286:15,20 291:13 294:8 299:12 304:7 349:19 359:5,16,18,20 leveling 279:19 levels 94:1,2 273:24 306:19 levy 6:2 levylaw.com 6:5,6 lewin 245:12,18 245:23,25 246:16 246:23 297:6 298:4,12 308:15 308:17,20 326:1,4 326:20 327:2 lewin's 246:10 309:7 330:25 lewis 331:2 library 147:16,18 147:21 lid 127:16 132:7 life 104:22 light 91:1 101:11 165:20 193:3,8 194:6,9 197:19 252:19 255:16 290:5 291:25 294:4 297:8 298:20 likelihood 168:18 likewise 185:17 limit 78:6 94:19 97:11 98:11 332:11 348:7,20 349:8,10 350:6,23 351:17 352:17,22 limitations 256:5 256:6 limited 64:9 136:18 145:16 158:24 215:20 216:1 276:24 limits 95:20,20 96:2,7 linda 8:24 9:3 line 56:19 57:3 104:14,15 131:22 141:12 235:12 305:11 367:11 379:5 lines 154:3,24 linings 34:16,17 link 144:3 list 31:14 listed 263:7 377:5 listen 347:14 listing 54:11 lists 31:13 213:5 289:24 literally 257:23 316:15 literature 24:19 28:4,5 113:14 149:15 152:9 little 23:8 28:11,23 28:25 55:1 80:14 84:19,24 87:3 92:1,2,4 127:3,24 128:1,15 133:23 139:19 157:3 172:8 173:6 177:22 178:25 187:2 190:9 236:2 248:10 268:19 283:22 294:11 308:18 315:15 339:3 342:10 355:22 359:10 367:17 lives 37:13 lkagan 5:6 lie 7:19 Up 1:16 5:9,14,19 6:2,8,15 7:2,22 8:2,7 9:7 located 51:8 89:6 190:18 locked 21:25 23:24 24:6 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [london - mansfeld] Page 36 london 1:17 9:7 17:24 155:5 long 20:5 23:12 25:17 41:17 49:8 80:1 108:15 133:4 134:15 159:5,14 159:25 166:15 242:15 248:13 274:5 309:8 320:20 321:2 322:21 323:7 336:9 354:5 359:20 longer 20:2 74:22 74:24 75:1 343:20 longo 5:19 9:19 look 46:2 47:11 55:19 62:23 81:14 87:18 100:21 106:19 107:25 109:11,11 122:10 131:22 139:19 180:9 192:9 194:9 208:6211:19 216:10,12 224:12 229:12 231:17 232:21 233:5 239:19,23 250:4 250:16 252:23 255:15 259:5,6 262:24 268:17 269:14,15 270:20 282:3 291:8,10 292:17 293:12 301:11,14 308:21 309:11 318:3,21 336:8 339:21 343:8 350:9 354:24 359:13 looked 15:10 22:1 28:1041:18 73:10 134:4 188:8 196:8 263:10 273:3 287:5,13 292:8 301:20 309:9 322:2 340:4,13 344:8 347:3 looking 47:3 50:8 66:8,13 94:25 105:10 114:2 118:11 127:22 157:11 169:19 185:15 194:5 196:11,20 197:17 197:19 203:12 211:6214:17 227:14 228:21 236:8 239:6 249:10 250:19 251:4,15 270:14 270:20 308:2 318:20,24 349:17 359:21 looks 76:24 79:7 146:23 157:12 169:17,18 179:10 187:10 202:5 205:3,4,8 212:15 235:10 242:24 244:2 255:24 259:7 337:18 loose 44:20 45:2 loosely 50:7 lorena 124:22,23 los 1:16:16,22 7:23 lot 39:5 67:10 76:15,19 84:13 139:23 159:11 160:23 197:5 211:22 231:1 245:16 259:1 263:7 266:9 271:23 278:11 279:10 310:9 313:18 315:10 332:8 337:15 340:16 367:12 372:10 lotion 73:13,21 74:23 75:5,10,17 123:3 143:4 lotions 337:1 lots 60:5 215:3 255:24 361:19 loud 151:2 low 36:22 103:21 244:24 245:3,8 272:10 306:19 lower 115:22 201:14 350:22 353:9 357:22 lowers 352:17 lsavorgnan 7:16 lubricant 71:20 139:18 lubricious 71:18 139:21 175:3 lubricity 66:20 111:16 112:11 140:20 175:20 226:10 lucky 354:17 lucy 7:13 lunch 136:4 lung 15:2,5 110:11 110:15,16,21 127:8 150:2,24 151:22 152:4 327:1 lungs 68:3 151:8,9 lying 84:9 m m 191:4 m3 78:15 machine 317:4,7,8 317:9 378:6 magnetite 261:11 263:6 magnification 251:7,12 253:3 254:6,8 309:24 321:23 magnifying 100:20 101:22 350:7,10 magnitude 234:7 mail 56:19 mailed 185:3 maimon 6:3 main 5:10 59:16 78:2 88:19,20 263:21 maintain 15:12 19:12 28:5 maintained 48:1 51:2 57:18 106:13 163:25 214:25 majesty's 155:15 major 193:25 222:3 making 133:3 194:3 227:16 malignant 103:2 malik 7:3 man 113:17 310:14 mann 52:3,7 55:19 56:18 124:20 125:24 369:10 mansfield 6:21 8:11 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [manufacture - medicated] Page 37 manufacture 234:8 manufacturing 167:5 marc 5:20 9:19 march 65:23 91:20 203:6 330:22 370:22 m ark 22:4 150:6 335:17,20 336:2,4 marked 46:3,8 52:1 61:6 65:13 65:20,23 67:8 76:6 82:14 105:21 124:16 126:5 136:8 137:19 150:9 152:14 158:18 172:7 173:20 175:18 177:5 179:4,21 184:18 188:22 191:23 195:3 196:3 198:18 202:25 203:8 204:16 206:20 210:14 212:6 218:20 221:3 223:10 225:3 230:17 233:22 235:24 237:16 239:16 242:23 250:5 256:23 260:21 264:9 266:21 275:18 280:19 282:24 287:1 288:22 296:13 300:12 301:13 305:18 307:5 313:25 324:6 327:9 332:24 336:14 339:24 342:21 344:17 355:16 360:1 363:22 365:24 markedly 282:6 m arket 59:21 60:11 82:22 138:10 143:19 144:5 231:9 329:17 marketed 231:9 marketing 60:11 122:23 138:3 m artin 3:3 marvel 268:17 masci 191:4 massage 71:10 massive 43:23 45:15 50:11,19 90:2 97:11 98:1 161:13,16 165:12 166:14,24 167:4 168:8,17,20 169:9 169:14 258:21 346:25 master 300:16 mate 225:13,18,19 372:7 material 57:20 88:2,4 108:10 163:9,10 167:23 167:25 169:13 181:17211:23 218:13 256:11 299:10 316:5 materials 37:12 162:3 165:16 166:10 167:6 169:3,7 276:9 347:12 maternity 60:22 m atter 6:6 159:9 159:13 191:5 282:10 matters 209:19 matthew 7:8 35:8 mccracken 8:2 mccrone 245:19 247:3 248:18 252:10 266:22 267:16 271:13 272:24,25 273:3,5 273:11 275:22 279:25 296:15 297:18 298:9,16 300:14,15 304:13 304:20,25 306:16 307:17 313:2 326:16 373:15,20 374:9,11,13 mckinney 5:4 md 369:19 mean 16:6 18:4 27:4 31:8 50:6 68:8 118:12 126:15 127:21 183:11 187:16 188:7 189:15 196:13 199:23 205:25 215:24 232:12 248:23 249:3 271:17 279:3 294:3 307:13 343:3 344:5 357:19 meaning 89:21 99:3 124:25 235:6 332:8 means 11:9 33:14 42:3 43:4 49:25 57:11,13 84:9 99:24 100:3,5,7 107:18 109:25 123:5 125:10,15 126:17 127:20 155:15 196:14 199:24 206:2 211:15,22 218:23 230:11 251:7 320:13 331:5 339:13 343:20 344:5 359:2 meant 51:15 136:23 216:25 246:19 285:5 measure 232:15 271:7 294:1 measured 187:8 measurements 174:20 175:8 179:25 measuring 301:6 mechanisms 132:1 132:6 medical 15:10 36:9 53:8 71:9,23 72:23 73:15,24 79:2 105:18 108:23 126:23,23 135:19,21,22,23 136:1 140:11,14 141:2,7,16,22,25 142:4,6,7,14 147:18,21 148:11 149:15,25 150:19 155:17 244:21 291:14 364:1 medically 364:3 medicated 158:10 267:23 268:7 269:16,22 270:6 270:24 271:6 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [medicated - middle] Page 38 272:5,18 275:13 309:2 331:3 373:17 medicinal 71:6,7 71:11 129:20 130:10 medicine 148:15 148:20,21 149:5,6 243:4 287:22 meet 47:14 49:22 51:19167:25 215:12 347:4 meeting 40:8 76:12,23 77:4,6 93:1 107:14 189:2 212:22 250:6,6 281:20 283:12 284:19 285:20,21 285:23 324:17,23 325:1 369:4 373:3 375:4 meetings 145:16 meets 166:22 250:15 member 79:1 memo 76:22 77:5 92:24 105:22 109:15,19,20,23 160:6 230:22 236:10,12 237:15 239:1 242:24 243:3 256:21 259:21 281:19 283:1,3 286:4 287:5 292:7 304:20 308:1 314:14 324:17 336:15 340:3 347:24 348:2 353:10 355:25 364:15 365:6,7 369:3,7,12 372:3,7 372:9,19,23 373:12 374:2,4,6 374:18,21 375:2,6 375:9,14 376:3,9 376:12 memorial 174:4 184:22 196:5 221:18 memos 266:10 327:21 mention 223:6 263:25 355:10 mentioned 43:20 56:24 106:11 312:4,7,8 352:14 355:11 mentions 146:25 mere 248:22 merely 53:20 151:23 191:2 mesothelioma 24:13,24 34:6 102:24 103:2,20 114:12 151:14 240:8 242:7 message 243:15 met 35:11 76:15 166:23 243:13 267:8,12 284:5,5 344:24 metal 107:14 157:13,19,24 method 90:25 100:8 101:23 119:25 120:1 167:13 254:23 255:6,11 256:7 282:16 293:24 295:7 303:3 339:12,15 342:13 342:18 348:8,16 348:21 350:18 351:18 352:3,16 352:17 355:9 358:9 359:5 362:3 methodologies 268:13 291:19 359:11 methodology 163:2 232:13 251:25 256:1 294:1 methods 51:21 90:15,20,23 99:25 111:5 185:18 255:15,17 256:2,6 278:25 288:9,18 331:23 345:5 349:5 351:4,6,10 359:11 361:8 metropolitan 231:1,3 232:5 372:9 mg 78:15 mgaffrey 5:22 mgroseclose 6:23 mica 211:13 micky 35:6 microbial 47:15 micrographs 321:13 micron 310:2,4 microns 110:12,15 110:23 111:1 341:14,15 microscope 101:11,17 193:2 194:10,18 200:18 213:1 218:23 227:15 228:22 232:16,21,22 239:6 251:9 254:5 259:9 278:14 290:5 292:10,12 292:14,19 293:13 293:17 299:18 308:16 321:20 335:3 351:8 microscopes 297:15 microscopic 155:13 223:16 232:5 292:9 334:25 340:14 372:4 375:19 microscopically 338:7 microscopist 194:13 223:22 257:19 259:18 276:1 314:7 microscopy 90:18 90:19 91:1,4 119:21 120:3,12 121:6162:14 165:1,20,21 192:20,24 193:3 193:16 194:6 216:14,15 232:14 236:22 239:9,10 252:19 253:1 254:8 255:17,18 258:5 279:7,13 291:25,25 293:25 294:5,6,13,24 297:8,9 298:20 299:17 311:1 340:18 353:15,15 mid 2:6 3:6 4:5 274:8 middle 316:21 319:4 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [middlesex - misunderstood] Page 39 middlesex 2:13:1 4:1 mile 263:2 miles 262:6,14 274:1 mill 167:9,11 miller 104:5 364:7 364:9,23 million 216:21 350:9 359:12 millions 116:21 190:11 271:18 mind 119:19 149:1 252:6 354:12 mine 47:4 48:19 49:10,14 51:17,19 85:13,21,24,25 86:12,16 88:7,7,10 89:2 94:21 96:15 96:16 97:3,5 106:11,19 120:21 120:21 129:10,11 169:5,17 184:8,12 184:12 189:3,11 189:12,15 190:10 190:18 191:11 199:13,22 200:16 200:19 207:5 208:15 209:3,7,7 217:23 218:5 219:6,13 220:3 221:12,24 234:2 257:8 260:14 261:4 262:6,24 263:9 269:23 273:15,16,23,25 274:1,3,5 295:4,9 295:24 296:3 314:17 315:3,16 316:4,11 318:20 318:25 325:8,20 334:12 353:6,6,13 362:23 374:22 mined 114:2 209:3 263:1 miner 316:11 318:10 mineral 2:9 3:9 4:8 44:3,11 92:8 97:1 98:12,13,13 155:14 160:20 161:5 165:8 168:16 169:11 172:18 175:24 198:7 200:20 212:18 214:4 222:7,8,23 255:23 276:8 277:1 278:16 312:9 315:5 321:15,15 370:10 mineralization 261:9 mineralogical 47:15 175:19 177:25 200:16 232:5 333:21 375:11 mineralogically 185:21 209:21 mineralogy 193:23 mineralology 262:20 minerals 6:12 42:23 43:2,9,13,15 43:18 48:8,25 49:6,20 50:5,12,18 50:19 51:17 64:9 92:10 97:23,25 98:16 99:5,15 110:11 162:23 164:5 165:13 166:11 169:20 170:17,18 171:1 172:23 176:13 182:2 191:1 193:14,17 194:3 194:22 213:12,13 215:2,4,13 216:10 218:10 222:24 234:2 240:6 242:5 242:15 256:4,16 257:10,21 258:1 259:11,13 261:10 263:5,7 274:16 275:5,8,23 276:10 295:23 297:11 298:6,11 299:11 310:9 311:23 318:13 335:13 342:20 345:20 350:23 358:4,20 375:23 miners 97:6 168:22,24 169:18 169:21 170:7,12 183:15,23 265:7 274:25 295:17 317:1 mines 78:7 80:3 98:23 106:9,14,15 107:8 120:24 206:23 207:1,4,7 215:11 216:19 219:4,25 220:4,18 231:17 233:17 236:13 245:20 249:25 252:3,11 260:23 262:17 273:17 274:13 295:8 332:25 333:19 335:6 349:23 362:25 367:6,7 372:13,17 minimum 48:1 51:2 163:25 214:25 255:16 mining 89:15,16 97:6 167:5 168:23 169:13 231:4 262:5 274:22,24 275:9,12 317:3,4 318:22 334:5 minor 66:18 182:1 214:14216:1 320:18 325:10,19 335:22 minute 150:7 283:18 minutes 72:19 77:4 280:14 363:12,17 365:22 misconception 167:15 misheard 279:21 misinterpretation 353:12 misinterpreted 287:10 missed 105:13 mississippi 7:14 misstatement 246:23 mistaken 291:1 312:20 313:9 mistakenly 306:7 misunderstand 56:17 misunderstanding 54:10 154:2 misunderstood 55:7,9,12 56:5,13 56:16,23 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [misused - never] Page 40 misused 89:12 mix 72:17 278:19 ml 78:6 mmaimon 6:5 mmm 59:12 80:4 115:3,18,24 121:9 126:14 142:12 154:5 157:23 158:5 207:23 233:4 239:11,11 249:9 259:4 318:18 mmwr.com 8:5 moderately 253:3 modern 142:21 190:14 278:25 moisture 111:17 139:24,25 140:19 mom 72:8,11 135:21 moment 40:3 195:18 320:1 monitor 296:3 353:4 monograph 54:2 145:15 159:21,22 montgomery 8:2 month 179:11 196:7 months 88:9 102:12 179:14 268:18 286:1 347:4 moran 5:19 9:20 morbidity 129:22 morning 161:11 morphology 44:13 44:14 272:7 276:16,22,25 279:8 338:14 morris 369:19 mortimer 364:7 moshe 6:3 mother 59:10 69:19,24 70:5 71:8 72:22 74:20 74:25 141:18 142:13,20 143:5 mother's 135:24 mothers 59:4,7,14 59:17 60:2,8,14 61:2 66:23 67:4 67:13,18 motives 132:10 mount 243:4 244:20 245:12,15 245:25 246:24 247:8 280:23 287:17,21 290:1 310:13 mouth 127:5 move 50:22 moved 12:16,18 157:25 moving 196:1 mquirin 7:10 mt 238:8 mum 128:14 133:24 mums 142:22 museum 23:9 223:17 224:2,7,14 372:5 muted 355:19 myers 6:18 n n 5:16:17:18:1,7 368:1 n.w. 7*4 name 9:3,10 10:25 11:129:25 40:7 40:12 55:14 91:10 98:5 245:4 247:20 333:18 360:20 377:12 378:20 379:3,4 names 54:1 333:23 nashed 81:22 243:9,10 257:2 258:2 259:17 283:8 284:14 285:3 286:5 287:7 305:19 306:4 308:2 311:16 313:6 327:10,11 327:23 330:13 331:24 344:20 360:8,10 373:7 374:4,16,18 375:2 375:6 nations 53:12 54:23 natural 181:25 212:21 naturally 226:25 228:12 nature 112:11 155:18 234:7 259:2 near 169:7,14 215:23 217:4 253:21 nearly 143:19 necessarily 57:1 59:6 111:21 162:18 163:1 188:1,1 217:21,24 245:1 248:12 277:15 307:14 necessary 136:25 347:10 necropsy 151:6 need 28:19 46:25 63:13 87:14 88:12 93:24 101:10 136:19 141:14 161:3 179:5 181:10 194:21 197:5 198:14 255:25 262:23 278:4 290:23 292:11 349:6 353:2 359:13 365:12 needed 88:8 134:21 needle 42:1,3 98:3 98:6,17 155:20,21 209:25 210:5,9 240:5 242:4 322:21 needles 237:2,9 238:12,22,22 needless 156:19 needs 262:24 343:23 neither 10:17 297:25 316:13 net 30:4 never 15:21 32:5 32:14,19,24 33:24 34:21 35:11,24 36:10,16 41:10 58:16 64:13,20 79:9,11 80:6 81:10 89:20 93:7 94:13 97:21 98:16 98:25 99:18,19 107:7 119:19 128:8,11 132:7 143:1 144:9,16 156:20,25 166:5 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [never - obvious] Page 41 208:13,14 220:4 228:22 243:13 245:25 248:16,21 250:24 267:8,12 290:11 313:10,14 350:10,13 359:6 363:19 new 2:13:14:1 5:21,21 6:4,4 7:9 7:9 8:8 16:8,8,10 46:18,24 48:19,24 49:13 50:17 51:8 63:15 147:24 148:20,21,24 149:5 162:20 173:9 208:12 284:16 286:10 289:16 290:2,25 297:7 298:4 300:15 304:19 306:20 307:2 326:25 338:5 368:14 newspaper 200:11 257:24 nice 23:2 nickel 107:15,16 107:24 108:3,6,6,7 108:7,7,8,11,12,16 108:24,24 109:17 109:18 nine 162:19 337:18,18 nj 6:12 nominated 52:20 53:4,6 56:2 145:17 146:19,21 nominations 53:25 non 43:19,22,25 44:8 45:16 47:3 54:3,11 89:6 90:2 96:17,17 98:1 99:21,24,24 100:2 100:5,22 101:21 103:21 159:10 160:20 161:13 162:16 164:10,17 165:5,22 166:1 167:5 168:25,25 169:2,7 170:13,13 182:20 183:18,21 184:5,6,9 187:10 187:10 188:2,5,11 193:24 200:4 211:23 214:19 216:21 237:9 238:12,22 263:13 269:5 295:16 314:13 318:21 323:13 359:17,19 363:4,8 nonplaty 180:22 181:16 200:22,24 213:8 nontalc 213:14 237:2 nonwhite 213:12 normal 131:14 138:8 310:11 normally 200:9 north 2:7 3:7 4:6 53:13 54:25 220:9 227:2,12,17,21 228:14 229:1,14 229:24 230:15 338:5 nose 127:4 notary 379:21,24 note 145:15 159:4 235:18 300:13 331:10 374:12,16 375:19 noted 179:24 notice 135:2 172:23 368:9,10 368:11,12 noticeable 224:17 notices 46:1 notification 33:16 notify 204:10 november 145:17 230:20 280:23 281:1 282:18 285:17 293:2 number 19:16 30:14 140:5 145:16 171:25 173:15 179:2 186:4,18,19,23 188:20 191:21 195:8 196:2 202:4 204:15 224:14,20 254:3,7 282:10 289:24,25 297:5 298:4,8,8 302:5,21 320:3,4 321:9 324:4 349:18 numbered 234:13 377:3 numbers 224:2 287:18 288:6 290:13 299:9 340:16 341:4 343:10 numerically 232:15 nurses 61:13,24 62:8 64:19 ny 283:25 287:8,9 nyu 246:1 o Oakland 8:13 oasis 186:8 object 21:267:11 171:18 248:2 269:5 363:8 objectionable 209:25 objections 10:4,7 10:13,14,19 171:7 171:11 248:3 269:4 objectively 69:11 229:19 obligation 330:6 obscure 194:2 observation 253:13 observations 279:24 280:2 281:10 observe 40:10,23 53:20 55:20 observed 251:12 251:17 253:23 281:17 282:5 299:12,20 304:6,9 observer 40:7,15 40:16,22 53:6,18 54:12,14 55:5,14 56:10 145:7,22 146:4,10,21 147:2 147:5,10 observers 145:16 obtain 131:25 277:2 obtained 172:17 175:1 257:8 obundy 6:17 obvious 32:22 156:20 284:19 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [obvious - okay] Page 42 285:4 obviously 28:4 92:5 121:17 142:6 161:24211:17 251:11 318:17 350:2 occasionally 89:13 89:14 306:19 320:20 346:7 occupational 103:21 occur 261:25 occurred 119:6 248:21 304:24 occurrence 151:22 occurring 226:25 228:12 282:8 occurs 78:3 151:15 180:11,21 180:24 265:6,8 October 22:18 172:12 173:24 174:14 212:7 275:23 296:18,23 odd 80:10,14 89:7 offer 138:11 145:22 252:6 offered 146:10 229:21 355:6 offering 228:20,24 354:7 office 288:25 oh 27:7 234:21 246:2,12 277:23 oil 192:17 oils 191:8 okay 10:20,24 12:7,23 13:11,18 13:23 14:11,19,23 15:24 16:18,24 17:6,20,23 18:4,7 18:10,13 19:5,11 19:11,15,19 20:4,8 20:15,18 21:5,7,13 21:20 22:2,10,12 22:19,22 23:4,11 23:14,18 24:1,11 24:16,2125:1,13 25:15,24 27:1,20 28:9,13,20 29:10 29:15,21 30:2,12 30:17,25 31:11,25 32:3,7,12,16,21 33:1,6,13,19,25 34:9 35:12,16 36:19 37:24,25 39:6,22 40:17,21 41:943:5,11 44:1 44:7,17,23 45:3,5 45:19,24 46:21 47:7 48:1149:4 49:15,24 51:6,23 54:7,13 55:6,15 56:9,21 57:4,14,17 58:13,18,20,24 59:3,15 60:3,10,25 61:4,21 62:21 64:18,23 65:11 66:15 67:1,6 68:10,16,21 69:1 69:14 70:12,17,22 75:13,16,19 76:4 76:21 77:3,8,24 78:10 80:4 81:24 82:7,14,25 83:10 84:6,12 85:1,7,14 85:20 86:2,12,20 87:8,19,24 88:11 89:23 90:3,22 91:5,25 92:12 94:7 95:15 96:10 96:19,24 97:9,20 97:23 98:24 99:7 100:4,18 101:9,13 102:4,21 103:7,23 105:8,15 106:5,24 107:6 109:21,24 110:4,7,14 111:9 112:4,14,20 113:2 113:9,20,25 114:7 114:14,23 115:11 115:21 116:3,9,14 116:23 117:11 118:5,21 119:16 120:20 121:3,15 121:20 122:4,9 123:2,14,17,21 124:1,5,8,14 125:11,14,23 126:2,6,16 128:10 128:23 129:1,14 130:24 131:17,20 132:5,13,25 134:20 137:14,25 138:18,22 139:3 139:11,13 140:3,9 140:18 141:5 142:18 143:2,10 143:25 144:14,21 144:21 145:4,10 145:25 147:3,11 147:12,15,20 148:3,18 149:2,12 149:19 150:12,21 150:25 151:13 152:11,23 153:4,9 153:12,19,22 154:17 156:6,13 156:18,24 157:4 158:2,7,14 159:17 160:12 161:2,10 163:11 164:12 165:14 166:4,15 167:3,10 168:14 168:17 170:3,15 170:20,25 171:24 172:5,15 173:11 173:14 174:1,13 175:14,16 176:25 177:9 178:7,10,18 178:22 179:20 180:19 181:4,21 182:14,18 183:5 183:13 184:1 185:11,13 186:1,6 186:22 187:1,6 188:13,19,24 189:6,17 190:3,8 191:18 192:8,12 192:13,22,25 193:15 194:20,25 195:4,7,15 196:10 196:17 197:15 199:9,15 201:3,4 201:17 202:10 204:13,24 206:5 206:10,17 207:2,6 207:18,21 208:2,4 208:16 209:8,11 209:12 210:7,11 211:2,21212:13 212:20 213:17,20 216:4,23 217:10 217:14,18 218:14 218:18219:11 220:13 221:2,15 222:13 223:21 224:1,6 225:14,19 226:13 228:4 230:16,25 231:8 232:1,17,20 233:1 233:10 234:11,16 234:22,25 235:25 236:24 237:7,12 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [okay - organization] Page 43 237:19 238:6,20 238:25 239:22,24 240:11,18 241:3 241:15 242:2,12 243:6,12 245:2,7,9 245:9,11,24 246:3 246:4,8,12,13,20 246:22 248:9 250:12 251:1 252:18 253:10,19 254:17,21,24 256:20 257:5,13 259:14 260:18,22 262:7 264:18 265:24 266:3 267:9,14 268:1,3,4 269:2,7,11,13 270:13,15,19,21 271:4,15,21 272:2 272:23 273:14 274:9,11,17 275:3 275:7,11,16 276:3 276:11,13 278:1 279:2,18,22 280:8 280:11,16,22,25 281:7 282:2,17,22 283:10,22 284:8 284:13 285:18,25 286:8,23 287:7,20 288:12 289:6,23 291:9 292:4,17 293:3,10,13,14,15 293:21294:1,10 296:1,10 297:17 298:2,19 299:16 299:25 300:3,7,25 301:10,14,19 302:14,23 304:23 305:4,16 306:23 307:11,15,23,25 308:2,6 309:19 310:6311:11 312:6,13,23 313:13 314:3,25 315:9,14 316:2,9 318:1,2,11,15 319:1,9,17,24 320:2,9,11,14 321:4,12 322:3 323:11,14,18 324:15 325:5,17 326:3 327:7,10,20 328:1,5,19 329:3 330:5,12,18 331:7 331:9,17,22 332:6 332:14,16,20,21 333:16,25 334:6 334:21 335:2,18 335:20 336:4,6,13 337:8 338:22 339:4,8,20 340:9 340:24 342:3,9,11 342:19 343:2,8,13 343:24 344:7,15 345:11,13 346:13 346:21 347:2,19 348:3,11 350:1,5,8 350:20 353:17 354:6,14,21 355:5 355:12,24 356:9 357:5,9,25 359:23 360:19 361:24 362:21 363:2,7,13 363:16 364:4 365:5,21,22 366:13,18 367:8 367:15,22 old 1:16 9:7 20:17 22:20 71:13 72:12 177:20 212:15 older 60:17 Oliver 6:9,15 once 239:13 349:12 one's 198:13 ones 15:128:10 148:14 175:6 176:18,21 338:11 347:3 online 55:13 56:11 210:24 opaques 213:11 open 55:3 128:19 312:19 opening 128:21 opens 128:17 operate 97:7 operating 317:7 operation 82:19 opinion 15:12,15 15:19,23 24:20,22 24:25 36:2 44:25 72:15 80:2 83:6 83:23 93:6 94:9 94:10 102:14,15 113:1,11,13 117:14 128:5 130:1,3,4,6,8,9,11 130:12,13,16,18 131:8,11 161:25 229:13 230:10,11 230:12 238:17,23 239:2,3,13 242:9 244:9,12 260:7 266:7,8 268:25 286:7 291:2,2,6 293:18,20 313:15 opinions 95:11 239:24 opportunity 53:17 161:23 169:10 354:23 opposed 12:5 72:18 73:9 optical 90:18 192:19,24 193:15 212:25 216:13 218:23 232:14 235:6 236:22 279:7 294:4 340:18 342:5 353:14 optimistically 306:20 option 132:15 133:1312:22 options 312:5 order 10:16 131:8 177:22 236:1,2 324:25 361:25 ore 96:14,20 97:12 98:1,13 106:11,13 119:22,22 120:12 120:14,14,21,22 121:4,16,17 165:13 166:13,24 167:4 168:7 170:13 175:2 181:2 183:12 208:21 211:25 222:3 234:1,7 257:8,16 258:2 267:22 295:11 315:19,21,25 320:14,16,25 322:12,14 324:12 349:24 353:3 372:15 ores 99:4,10 199:12 212:21 213:19312:10 organization 117:20 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [orient - part] Page 44 orient 46:11235:3 original 161:20 166:24 287:25 291:2,2,23 300:19 303:18 304:4,25 originally 82:9 289:8 originate 280:4 originates 262:11 orrick 7:2 orrick.com 7:5,6 osha 78:6 80:3 94:1,5,19 95:19 96:1,7 ought 297:15 ounce 115:10 ounces 126:21 outcome 118:14 263:21 285:24 378:16 outlined 345:1 outlying 106:12 outside 130:25 148:2 329:12 330:3 351:14 ovarian 14:21 144:3 153:2 250:20 251:21 281:4 overall 359:13 overarching 329:21 oversize 180:21 owned 221:12 274:2 275:1,4,8 owners 189:3 190:22,25 191:11 P______ p 5:1,16:1,17:1,1 8:1,1 pl-2657967 379:2 pacific 1:6 package 138:4 packaging 157:6 packet 62:8 page 36:21 46:10 47:12 61:18 64:2 64:4 65:19,20,21 66:3,17 67:7 77:9 77:17,25 82:13 83:2,14 109:12 110:8 136:15 137:19,24 140:3,5 143:11 144:1 145:11 150:16 151:18,18 152:16 153:7 160:15 173:23 174:15 175:17,18 177:24 179:21 180:8 182:13 184:20 185:12 186:5,16 186:18,19 190:9 192:13 193:1,6,20 193:20 197:16 198:4 199:5,10,11 199:18,18 200:15 201:5,18 203:8 205:6 208:17 209:17 211:10 212:14,16,18 221:21 232:2 234:12 235:9 237:14 239:19,23 240:17 242:3 251:3 252:24 253:12 269:14 270:15,16,17 276:5,18 282:3 283:11290:17 293:11,12 298:21 303:18 305:20 314:3 315:1 317:18,25 319:2 320:3 321:9,17 322:5 323:3 325:25 343:9,10 368:2,8 369:2 370:2 371:2 372:2 373:2 374:1 375:1 376:2 377:5 379:5 pages 65:21 195:3 197:6 234:13 317:23 377:3 paid 247:25 248:12 249:18,22 274:23 panatier 5:3,3 9:13,13 10:1,2,20 10:21 18:16,18 19:2 21:4 46:9 92:15,18,22 104:16 125:19 136:5 145:1 150:11,13 171:5,8 171:10,13,17,21 172:5 181:14 186:25 206:8,11 206:14,18 235:14 235:21 248:4,7 249:1 264:15,17 280:13,16 282:22 293:5,7,9 313:21 320:5 332:18,21 332:23 338:20 339:2,7 355:15 363:13,16,21 368:4 panel 40:6 paper 35:13 102:23 103:1,11 104:20,21 105:4 129:2,2 149:25 197:10 278:3 papers 102:22 paragraph 77:12 78:1,1 111:3 153:13 159:24 180:9 181:15 229:11 284:17 291:11 303:8 324:21 339:11 362:5 paragraphs 285:6 parallel 341:12 343:18 344:2,9 351:1 352:2 357:11 358:2 parameters 47:25 51:1 163:24 166:23 214:24 226:9 parent 72:14,15 73:7,12 parental 75:6 133:24 134:16 parentheses 259:15 parenthesis 338:22 parents 134:15 park 8:8 parnell 6:15 part 27:22 29:19 42:4 51:4 72:20 97:6,13 121:13 134:13 154:10 173:6 187:15 193:25 235:22 256:10,13,15 261:10 263:8 295:3,3 353:5 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [particle - photographs] Page 45 particle 41:25 71:19 89:13 94:2 196:15 209:25 236:22 237:25 343:18 344:2 particles 98:4,7,10 98:18,19,21 110:11,15,17,22 110:23,25 139:19 155:18 180:12,22 181:7 193:11 194:10 196:15 217:14,19 226:19 227:6 228:1,17 229:6,12 232:22 238:13 244:16 251:10258:11 263:20,22,23 281:15 311:4,7 321:14 322:5 341:4,10 342:5 344:9 345:17 particular 18:6 27:11 37:21 39:19 100:7 148:16 162:11,18 164:19 178:9 183:25 214:17 218:4 248:23 256:7 257:18 276:8 particularly 71:13 71:14 107:14 216:14 276:10 329:14 parties 10:14 117:2,9,13 378:14 378:15 parts 96:17 121:4 205:5 216:21 359:12,12 party 10:1753:7 117:14,22 146:18 370:5 pass 62:9 235:21 passed 166:16 235:19 346:2 352:7 358:14 passport 18:8,20 19:1 pasted 146:7,14 147:8 pastore 2:4 paterson 5:20 pathology 110:21 patients 62:3,9,15 pattern 255:23,25 256:4 277:2,4 281:12 patterns 253:24 272:7 paul 124:22,22 pay 26:1,4,19 248:23 252:9 payan 152:21,21 369:21 paying 26:1 pbicks 7:5 pc 5:3 pcpc 91:13 159:1 peers 245:13 pending 10:11 Pennsylvania 6:10 8:4 people 31:10 37:14,18 38:3 44:22 51:13 52:23 54:11 55:4,4 58:4 59:21,23 60:5 70:9,14 74:18 81:25 106:21 108:24 109:5,12 111:21,23 114:9 116:21 123:5,10 123:23 137:11 142:13 146:16,18 231:18 244:23 252:8 266:11 289:20 308:3 313:7 327:22 337:18 344:19,20 351:16 366:4 367:9 people's 63:24 80:21 95:11 perceive 67:13 percentage 187:17 237:5 270:5 272:10 305:15 345:16 percentages 201:13,15 299:13 301:21 302:22 304:15 perfect 363:15 perform 174:11 253:22 performed 205:3 356:12 perfumery 158:23 perineal 39:19 period 18:24 49:23 75:12 88:8 157:12,15 166:12 209:9 274:2,12 periodic 107:2 236:13 334:13 permissible 96:1,7 perm it 93:25 permitted 80:3 person 33:4 38:9 53:18 110:20 281:23 333:11 person's 15:14,17 15:22 personal 91:11 169:25 190:12 personally 19:12 95:5 perspective 62:18 67:17 pertain 25:14 peter 7:3 petrographic 212:24,25 218:22 235:4 340:18 371:19 petterson 360:10 363:23 376:12 ph 301:6 pharmaceuticals 12:10 phase 87:1,2 phd 327:16,18 phenomenon 131:25 Philadelphia 8:4 Philippines 162:25 163:2,5,15,20 164:20 214:15 215:16 216:25 217:3,6 phillipson 158:22 370:4 phone 109:22 113:10 243:7 260:3 305:7 313:12 338:25 355:18 photo 197:18 photocopy 302:3 photographs 268:18 309:23 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [photomicrographs - position] Page 46 photomicrographs 321:18 phrase 99:23 122:5,23 165:14 phraseology 166:6 249:4 phrasing 10:18 physical 140:2 174:20 175:8 199:11 physically 167:7 physician 267:6 physicians 53:8 61:13,24 physics 139:17 physiological 71:11 pick 113:10 114:16 277:13 317:3 349:5,6 353:16 355:7 362:19 picked 168:9 170:7,14,22 171:2 183:15,23 255:11 260:3 313:11 pictures 122:11 pigment 2:9 3:9 4:8 pilot 197:25 pinerolo 175:1 pinorolo 212:23 Pittsburgh 6:10 place 22:24 95:20 144:9,16,19 170:12 194:17 268:21 355:22 placed 129:21 241:5 276:9 placentas 105:5 places 94:1 plaintiff 4:4 14:9 plaintiffs 1:4 2:5 3:5 5:2 6:6 9:14 10:3 26:8,8 plan 330:22 plane 197:19 plant 197:25 220:24,24 221:8,9 338:5 plants 111:5 plastic 157:16,25 plate 167:20,20 200:8 259:6 310:1 platelets 209:21 283:20 326:24 plates 139:20,20 167:21 259:5 platy 167:23 183:17,18,18,21 185:20 187:17 188:2,2,5,11 193:13,24 197:25 200:21,24 211:20 213:7 257:9 play 171:19 played 14:20 15:13,16,21 24:3 24:23 playing 10:6 please 9:1161:17 63:5 64:2 140:3 159:4 174:15 179:21 180:8 185:12 186:24 190:9 193:20 196:2 220:10 293:4 298:20 301:9 319:2 321:5 321:9 324:4 325:25 355:18 361:25 362:8 366:10 plenty 120:5 263:11 plethora 354:7 pleura 151:8,10,14 pile 7:8,12 plus 51:21 120:2 pm 52:14 104:18 104:19 144:24,25 206:12,13 235:16 235:17 243:9 282:20,21 339:5,6 367:25 po 5:20 pocket 108:9 point 26:23 37:11 43:17 49:9,11 56:24 74:5,8 77:14 86:25 88:7 91:21 108:1 112:9 112:12 127:9 138:19 168:4 184:15 187:19 192:19 203:25 204:9 207:12 208:7 236:17 238:23 241:13 246:25 263:18 265:9 273:21 279:12 280:2 286:9 326:11 333:11,12,13 345:2 349:9 352:9 pointed 66:18 78:12 253:15 284:18 326:25 346:14 points 65:4 poisonous 191:1 polarized 91:1 165:20 193:3 197:19 255:16 294:4 polarizing 193:2 polaski 6:9 policies 46:23 policy 41:14,16 42:11,19,22 49:18 49:21 51:10,16,19 57:6,19 58:10 75:22 82:17,19 83:11 90:5,7,14 95:6 97:25 107:22 166:1,5,6 336:18 pooley 159:13,14 160:16,22 161:24 164:7,22 165:4 245:21 248:19,19 249:21 314:7 315:7,8 322:17 324:9 325:2,7,14 326:25 345:15 346:9 361:8 362:2 362:6,16 364:18 365:2 366:4,10 374:21 376:14 pooley's 161:25 268:17 348:15 361:16 362:12,19 poor 211:12,15 population 103:4 porphyroblasts 320:19 portion 240:3 Portsmouth 315:4 posed 140:4 346:16 position 190:14 215:5 217:1 241:9 329:4,8 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [positive - presented] positive 160:18 positively 272:6 276:23 possession 19:13 20:2,6 possibility 39:20 40:20 68:4,6 280:3 312:19 possible 63:15 94:22 106:14 107:2,15 117:17 131:24 151:23 159:23 167:8 176:20 194:17 possibly 35:22 39:20 216:20 318:21,21,24 posted 53:25 postmortem 151:25 potential 132:10 272:11 potentially 58:4 197:2 240:7 242:7 pound 115:9 pounds 115:9 powder 19:13,17 20:12 23:16 32:4 41:11 42:23 59:5 59:8,9,11,17,23 60:5,22 62:2,18 63:1,2,12 64:14,20 65:4 67:3,13,14 68:1 70:19,24 71:5,10,15,15 72:4 72:17,18,20 73:2,8 73:13,19,20 74:10 74:23 75:4,11,17 78:14,19,25 79:10 79:12,14,18,23 80:6,10,13,16,18 Page 47 81:4,11,13 83:5,13 83:15,17,21 86:22 87:10 93:4,7,10,22 111:13,16 114:19 115:1 122:16,22 123:11,22 124:3 125:2,21 126:13 126:19,21 127:4 127:17 128:4,15 129:4,18,20,23 130:5 133:4 135:11,15 136:11 136:20 138:4,5,13 138:15,20 140:11 141:23 143:8,19 143:20,22 144:9 157:2,7,8 158:11 175:3 185:23 189:21 191:12 193:25 203:20,25 204:4,11 212:22 213:20,25 214:9 219:23 223:17 225:11 226:15 234:8 236:18 237:8 238:3 241:6 244:13 252:20 253:25 254:10 257:7,16 264:23 265:14,17 268:7,8 269:16,17,22,23 270:6,24,25 271:6 272:5,18 275:13 275:14 283:15 284:21,22,25 285:6 286:6,12,16 286:20 288:2,5,16 289:12,17,18 290:15,22 291:13 293:19 296:21,23 296:23 297:5 298:8 299:9 303:5 306:25 308:24 309:3 331:3 336:17 338:1,15 340:15 369:16 372:5 375:16 powdered 375:22 powders 63:21,24 93:9,14 156:21 240:19 241:1,23 267:23 287:14 298:5 315:3 374:23 power 138:10 287:10 practice 131:19 134:22 336:25 practices 134:23 practitioners 58:8 62:8 pre 72:3 84:23 precautionary 163:12 164:21,25 precautions 69:15 preceded 285:20 precluded 280:5 predominant 175:25 preferable 209:20 preferably 167:21 preferred 143:20 preliminary 78:17 79:16,21 80:25 83:3 93:2 230:14 231:2 267:21 268:25 269:25 287:13,25 288:7 339:19 372:10 preparation 26:13 26:20 preparations 345:3 360:14,22 prepare 194:21 prepared 194:7 251:5 prerequisite 347:10 prescribed 90:24 prescribes 90:25 presence 69:12 107:2 153:15,17 160:18 165:12 196:24 216:20 226:20 227:7 228:2,18 229:7 230:5 253:2 264:4 298:5 303:25 338:8 present 9:1177:18 89:9 90:1 105:13 132:16,17 161:5,7 161:12,12 165:9 172:23 175:25 176:2 181:1 209:24 218:5 222:25 254:9 261:16 263:25 264:2 278:17 281:18 285:22,24 294:9 306:15 309:13 310:18 311:14312:10,17 318:13 324:24 332:10,11 345:20 355:8 presentation 197:12 presented 140:14 141:1 179:25 229:18 324:24 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [presently - professor] Page 48 presently 191:7 president 284:1,6 284:10 288:24 289:1,3,13 308:3 313:7 press 136:23 137:11 presumably 55:11 presumed 181:17 pretty 24:13 34:18 40:1 59:13 102:12 125:25 130:20 147:21 152:3 169:5 198:15 206:15 244:20 327:11 349:15 351:3 prevent 71:20 72:4 96:8 preventing 72:25 previous 83:2,14 189:20 229:11 previously 214:13 284:24 286:14 308:14 primarily 161:4 165:8 176:18 prim ary 144:11 prime 59:4 60:7 66:23 67:3,12,16 princeton 148:2 245:19 247:19 248:18 249:17 367:5 principal 371:18 principle 48:23 148:19 principles 47:9 print 159:22 prior 12:8 priority 379:1 prismatic 161:14 163:9 180:14 218:1 223:3 320:20 321:1,2 323:7,12,12,19 325:18,24 341:12 347:1 363:5 private 13:12 privilege 21:3 privileged 10:7 probability 359:18 probably 17:13 23:13 37:10 66:13 101:10116:15 154:2 157:20,21 158:1 232:14 243:1 245:5 258:9 273:6 278:25 311:17312:8 331:5 354:5 363:13 366:21 problem 15:2,3,5 132:1,11 135:2 191:5 256:2 307:9 310:12 328:16 346:17 problems 327:2 procedural 10:17 procedure 346:8 procedures 291:20 291:22 proceed 9:22 265:10 proceedings 377:4 process 40:10 46:17 53:20 73:22 74:24 75:11 78:4 97:6 121:4,4,14 138:12 162:20 167:16 168:4 170:23 187:20 199:20 205:5 231:16 256:10 263:18,21 264:1 264:21 265:10 295:3,4 326:24 361:5 362:7,19 368:13 processed 259:3 processing 203:12 220:25 procter 7:17 produced 11:6 25:9 121:18 128:13 139:9 233:6 238:2 247:11 321:14 322:6 produces 120:21 product 31:10,12 33:11,14 36:6 38:16 41:20,24 60:15 69:15 70:1 75:7,8 76:2 90:9 90:16 94:24 95:25 97:14 98:3,10 105:10 114:19 119:23 122:25 123:5 127:22 129:7 133:18 134:15,17,18,19 138:4 139:6,9 143:15,18,23 163:3 189:14,25 209:24 225:21 238:2 241:12 262:14 265:11 272:12 283:18 285:8 290:9 291:18 311:2 313:10 329:23 332:9 353:7 production 111:6 238:1 366:6 products 12:14 14:17 15:13,16 19:17 22:15 25:3 29:3,7,9,12,17,23 29:25 30:23 31:2 31:7,17 32:2,8,14 32:19,24 33:3,8 47:14,20 63:11 64:8 68:18 69:3,4 69:7,12 70:4,9,14 70:19,20,25 71:3,4 71:5 73:13 86:6 86:21,22,24 87:2,5 87:5 88:19 91:11 95:1 96:21 97:22 99:15,16 106:22 111:14 113:22,23 114:9116:18 123:1,4,18,23 124:10 129:5 135:16,18 140:1 143:4 144:4,8 148:1 157:1 185:19,21212:21 213:20 215:25 284:7,10 289:8 308:21 329:17 331:2 336:20 356:15 364:5 prof 248:19 315:8 322:17 professional 61:12 272:25 professionals 61:14,25 63:17 professor 297:6 298:3 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [program - quickly] Page 49 program 344:25 progress 199:11 project 336:17 367:14 375:17 projects 367:20 promise 37:24 promised 78:11 promoted 289:9 proof 127:16,16 127:18,19 128:6,9 128:12 132:7 proper 132:16 properly 131:16 properties 140:2 175:8 342:5 property 71:17 propose 159:12 proposed 78:17 326:23 328:25 345:7 362:3 proposing 345:15 protecting 70:6 protection 287:9 290:3 protocol 33:9 256:13 356:17 prove 87:15 144:7 166:21 proven 71:25 111:17,25 112:16 130:17 244:7,9 246:15 251:24 252:1,2 284:25 286:16 290:7 352:6 provide 62:14 78:11 136:21 330:7 provided 135:19 provides 111:16 providing 62:7 133:23 166:23 psychological 141:14,18 142:11 143:1,3 public 33:16 34:16 36:13 39:2 42:15 54:11 58:8 70:24 76:1 107:12 172:12,21 204:10 370:7,9 379:24 publication 155:4 155:10 publications 35:10 119:9 155:3 156:5 published 39:25 39:25 91:21 107:13 119:24 150:18 156:2 197:10 287:8 289:18 pull 60:20 83:7 84:3 144:4 231:23 292:14 294:7 317:11 327:22 345:16 pulled 170:11 206:24,25 207:7 235:7 pulley 179:5 pulling 169:4,5 pulmonary 15:2 151:23 240:7 242:6 purchased 86:12 98:14 pure 50:9,22 106:10 175:24 225:22 226:5 288:3 purer 50:21 purest 282:11,14 purification 167:13 purified 260:14 purity 47:15 175:19 191:8 212:18 225:20 323:25 purpose 136:21 264:1 purposes 11:10 171:3 put 23:3,23 24:5 39:23 40:7,11 55:14 83:1 95:20 127:16 128:11,13 133:18,25 134:11 134:20,25 135:6 170:5 173:12 177:21 178:4 179:16,18 181:5 199:4 202:20 204:3 205:23 209:2,9 211:24 233:20 283:3 300:21 303:23 336:1,4 338:16,21 putting 133:14 152:4 pyrite 222:25 261:11 263:6 _______ q qualification 46:18,24 162:20 368:13 qualified 54:1 82:9 364:3 qualify 47:3 quality 41:21 89:15 90:8 107:1 120:22 167:17 168:3 175:3 220:21 240:6 242:5 263:19 282:9 323:25 quantities 89:6 306:15 quantity 155:24 291:15 quartz 169:15 319:11,14 322:1 question 12:24 17:17 31:16 34:1 37:25 39:7 49:17 82:21 84:2 95:18 105:17 108:19,20 114:1 120:15,16 121:12 131:4 133:17 135:1,8 136:6,17 137:25 138:2,25 140:4,10 143:14 144:2,2 158:9 165:3 167:2 189:18 204:12 216:5,18 229:25 249:16 269:12,14 272:24 292:21 307:12 329:24 330:1,2 335:17,20 336:2,4 337:2 347:14 353:24 358:7 366:22 questioned 243:15 questions 10:2 62:2 136:11,22 171:7 280:9 367:23 369:17 quick 235:14 285:2 quickly 145:5 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [quirin - recovery] Page 50 quirin 7:8 quite 73:25 76:18 139:23 143:5 194:17 197:5 211:22 228:21 259:1 260:9 282:9 292:22 quote 129:16,24 131:22 quoted 288:3 quotes 338:16 r r 5:16:17:18:1 42:2 223:19 288:24 373:16 ra 308:7,9 328:2 rainbow 207:14 273:21 raise 111:5 131:11 167:16 263:19 raised 136:23 raising 168:2 187:17 312:22 ran 201:18 274:19 362:4 rand 308:15 309:21 310:8 range 175:9 351:9 353:13 ranges 22:14 rare 182:1 189:11 222:23 320:19 rash 72:4,25 rate 26:12,15 rated 244:24 245:3,6 ratio 341:21 343:19 357:22 ration 344:3 rationale 164:13 ratios 309:25 344:10 raw 120:14,17 rawle 6:8 rawle.com 6:11 ray 90:18,25 165:19216:14 235:4,6 239:8 256:3 258:4 277:19,24,25 278:12 292:5,6 294:3,4 297:8 331:6,25 334:24 335:3 353:14 361:7 reach 132:19 133:10 134:12 135:7 reached 10:3 reaches 170:8 react 37:14,15 read 24:19 35:10 39:14 45:21 46:25 54:5 55:24 63:7,8 64:16 66:24 78:8 78:20,21 79:20 102:23 103:1 104:3,7,23 105:2,3 105:6 106:16 107:4 137:1 144:12 145:23 151:2,19 175:4,5 177:19 181:10 182:3 197:5 212:19 223:4,5 226:23 240:9 254:1 289:21 290:23 291:5 292:6 315:13 316:6,6 318:16,17 322:22 331:7,8,11 364:24,25 377:3 reading 35:13 226:12 260:10 269:5 301:15 reads 146:5,12 147:6 160:17 161:1 162:3 201:2 208:22 210:2 213:16 229:19 ready 10:22 301:17 reagents 205:9,14 real 92:23 202:20 285:2 reality 108:3 117:15 145:24,24 146:25 147:1 252:16 realize 318:19 really 19:23 68:6 73:25 102:1 118:3 118:12 154:11 168:2 227:15 266:11 reason 52:23 79:9 83:7 133:19,20 134:2 162:24 163:13 189:7 241:10 263:17 301:1 304:13 348:24 351:18,24 352:1,1 353:21,25 355:21 379:5 reasonable 265:4 reasons 354:8 reath 8:7 recall 33:14 57:7 75:24 204:11 217:16 310:12 received 65:24 89:3 179:11 185:2 199:1220:8 236:2 304:25 305:23,24 328:10 360:7 recognized 34:3 72:23 73:14 89:5 113:14256:1 276:2 recognizes 73:24 recollect 30:16 52:19 56:1 148:16 recollection 87:6,9 87:13,17 132:15 284:3 recommendations 209:18 recommending 191:12 recommends 137:3 record 9:1,2 18:14 18:19 45:25 87:14 92:20,21 104:18 104:19115:25 144:23,24,25 171:4 172:9 206:12,13 220:20 235:16,17,18,20 235:22 270:9 282:20,21 283:3 312:9 317:22 339:5,6 363:20 378:9 recorded 171:18 378:6 recording 219:3 280:15 records 106:15,19 171:24 207:16 330:21 recovery 211:12 211:16 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [redone - reporting] Page 51 redone 300:21 301:3,4 303:11 304:14,21 reduce 132:2,6,15 reduced 201:24 reducing 111:16 reduction 112:11 refer 110:25 reference 82:11 referred 85:17 122:16,21 124:2 290:2 364:22 referring 129:6 refine 182:21 refined 181:2 reflect 134:22 145:24 193:8 266:18 309:8 349:16 reflected 178:2 refractive 192:18 refute 132:1,11 352:23 refutes 40:1 regard 193:21 regarded 153:17 246:25 regarding 107:14 113:22 122:10 156:20 204:11 287:10 regards 52:25 regional 53:12 regions 55:2 register 273:11 regular 74:8 120:23,25 121:16 353:6 359:15,15 regularly 89:4,18 121:6,7 122:21 220:8 334:4 regulate 329:5,6 329:11 330:2 regulating 328:25 regulation 156:10 156:11 329:20 330:4,22 regulations 328:12 330:20 regulators 58:8 regulatory 42:15 141:22 reid 375:9 reimburses 26:6 reinforced 71:9 reiterated 65:3 290:21 reiterates 67:16 289:11 325:14 reiterating 362:11 reject 84:13 rejected 160:19,23 161:17314:13 relate 323:25 related 15:6,8 28:25 127:2 142:5 151:22 342:14 relates 141:7 187:16 relating 24:19 136:20 relation 29:22 282:10 relations 52:22 relationship 26:9 73:7 74:19 75:7 135:20 136:2 142:11,20 143:1,3 143:5 144:8 relative 66:22 378:12,15 relatively 282:7 released 330:25 relevant 374:23 reliable 295:1 350:17 relied 274:23 relying 69:19,25 remain 155:24 remainder 225:22 remains 143:20 remember 126:16 148:25 217:12 247:19 292:7 323:5 342:14,25 removable 209:23 removal 107:17 111:5 197:23 264:22 265:13 362:8 366:11 remove 97:8 144:8 167:8 200:12 256:10 366:7,15 366:19 removed 97:3,5 129:18 201:25 removing 183:21 renew 18:23 repeat 17:17 166:17 169:12 186:23 198:15 repeatedly 58:8 rephrase 121:12 142:2 replaced 296:25 300:9 302:8 replacement 302:10,13 report 39:14,15,18 65:16 66:7 78:11 172:16 173:22 179:7,10,25 188:24 192:2 198:21 199:6,11 203:3 204:19,23 208:11210:15 211:11212:10 219:20 220:2,3 221:4 234:6 237:11 238:17 239:17 240:22 243:7 250:6 260:10,11 267:22 268:16 269:6,25 270:3,21 273:2,3,4 273:10 275:22 287:14,25 288:7 291:23 296:15,25 300:9,14,19 301:1 301:11,24,25 302:3,4,5,8,15 303:23 304:13,19 305:1,1,23,23 306:1 308:13 309:21 314:6 315:3 318:16 324:10 325:21 330:25 335:12 345:1 364:22,22 365:2,2 368:24 372:14 373:15,20 374:11,13,21 reported 151:7 253:8,9 260:12 308:24 309:2 310:11,15 334:3 365:9 reporter 1:19 9:21 200:6 328:11 378:1,3 reporting 52:18 92:25 191:11 283:11,23 333:1 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [reporting - right] Page 52 333:19 379:1 reports 149:15,18 281:23 284:14 330:13,19 331:13 335:6 364:18 366:23 represent 9:12 13:24 representation 18:15 representative 11:6,17,20 12:3,5 250:14 336:20 represented 357:1 representing 9:3 338:1 represents 129:4 315:2 reputation 244:21 246:5 request 47:2 333:20 362:2 requested 298:9 require 25:22 294:23 required 97:8 98:10 121:19 379:21 requirement 97:13,14,17 154:13 167:25 255:15 294:13,15 353:5 358:24 requirements 42:4 90:11 98:2 167:19 358:9 rescued 23:20 research 23:9 39:12 40:5 59:21 73:11 102:19 113:21 114:2 116:24 117:1,6,22 118:2 119:4 138:8 147:25 174:7 197:10 221:4 244:21 308:10 328:4 346:18 356:7 367:14,16 372:14,20 researcher 118:18 researchers 119:13 resembled 281:11 reserved 10:5 171:15 reserves 209:19 234:1 372:15 resistant 128:13 resolve 159:23 resources 283:25 284:16 286:11 respect 63:15 66:20 130:11 159:11 162:1 281:9 respirable 110:22 respond 137:11 responded 185:17 responding 53:24 147:4 328:20 response 52:21 56:15 136:19 146:13,23,24 147:7 311:12 365:14 responsibility 329:13,15,22 responsible 51:13 responsive 269:5 363:8 rest 87:12 260:10 260:11 322:8 result 248:14,20 252:11,13 255:12 283:15 305:1 349:12,15 351:6 352:4 361:21 resulted 129:23 results 82:20 117:23 118:11,14 118:18 119:1 172:17 195:19 198:5 200:18 202:5 208:23 235:3 236:17 247:10,17 248:24 249:3,6,11 268:2 301:7 305:11 307:8,17 309:9 326:7 328:22 334:23 339:10,18 353:1 retain 336:19 337:2 retained 13:19,25 35:3,17 152:24 153:10 308:20 336:16,18 337:10 338:1 375:15 retract 243:24 246:7,9 retracted 286:9 revealed 155:17 340:18 revenues 17:12 reverse 216:5 revert 88:12 review 25:8 28:20 39:23 40:6 61:12 61:25 63:14,18 283:16 287:12 348:6 368:20 reviewed 25:11 27:21 28:6,7 81:15 178:8,9 207:16 315:11 325:7,22 345:14 reviewing 194:1 revised 287:8,17 288:6 301:11,25 302:3,21 303:3,23 304:3,8 305:23 revision 343:3 revlon 6:18 rhoads 8:2 rhurst 8:5 right 10:2211:2,4 11:1612:2 13:1,3 13:8 14:3,7,15,23 15:4,9,18 16:1,4 16:10,10,15,18 17:4,15 18:13 19:7,9 20:20,24 21:23 23:21 24:7 24:7,14,24 25:6 26:3,11 27:12 28:1,15,22 29:4 30:2,21 31:22 33:14 34:4 35:1,5 36:1,25 37:5,19 38:5,7,13 40:9 41:14 42:25 44:10 44:15 45:3,7,14,24 46:15,19 47:19,23 48:3,12,14,15 50:3 50:25 51:8,24 52:2,6,11,12,17 54:5,8,19 55:17 56:3,14,25 57:2,12 57:22,23,25 58:6 58:24 59:18 60:21 61:2,4,16 62:5,12 62:15 63:3,24 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [right - right] Page 53 718-983-1234 [right - samples] Page 54 324:18 325:3,11 326:1,6,9,13,14 327:6,12,15,17 328:17,24 330:5 330:10,12 331:7 331:20 332:4,12 332:15,18,21 333:2,14 335:2,7 335:10,13,16,18 335:23 336:7,22 337:11,16,19,21 338:17 339:10,17 339:20 340:4,11 340:24 341:7,16 341:21 342:7 343:2,16,21 344:7 344:14,18,21 345:21 346:1,9,11 346:11,21 347:7 348:5,13,17,22,25 350:7,11,18 351:20 352:18,20 353:4 354:10,14 354:15,19 355:17 355:20,25 356:4 356:15,23 357:3,7 357:12,14 358:6 358:17,22 359:1,4 360:2,5,8,14,21 361:3,16,22 362:9 362:17 363:6 364:2,6,13,16,24 365:9,11,13,19,21 365:25 366:1,8,11 366:22 367:2,22 367:23 rise 155:23 167:24 risk 103:5,9 104:9 111:15 112:1 117:21 144:10,17 144:18,20,21 robert 55:10 145:12 366:3 robinson 103:14 robot 95:10 robust 312:9 rock 97:7 106:12 106:21 168:25 169:8,15,18 261:4 262:17,20 315:20 317:8 322:11 324:12 rocks 170:10,13 235:4,7 rod 300:4 rods 299:11304:6 304:9 341:13 roger 364:22 role 14:20 15:13 15:16,21 24:23 175:19 333:5 roles 46:22 roll 200:10 rolle 243:20,22 360:4 366:3 376:9 376:14 rolled 200:5,7,10 200:12 257:24,24 258:10 299:21 312:2 rollo's 373:16 rolls 259:7 romano 7:22 rome 370:21 rom er 283:25 284:16,18,22 285:3 ronald 3:3 8:3 room 53:18 155:24 rotating 128:6 rotor 127:25 roughly 110:12 115:13 241:22 round 259:6 routine 62:14 72:21 120:7 routinely 233:16 royal 109:7,8 rubber 233:20 rule 21:6 run 188:15 189:12 189:15 195:11 199:13,22 200:16 200:19 247:3 running 59:24,24 182:15 272:4 russell 223:20,24 225:6 227:14 372:3,7 rutile 176:3 180:14 209:22 s s 5:1,20 6:1,16 7:1 8:1 191:4 223:19 238:1 333:22 334:19,19,20,20 335:6,9,12,15,21 336:1 364:20 368:6 379:5 sacred 124:3,14,24 125:10,15,21 135:11 saed 277:4 279:20 safe 34:11,22,24 36:10,15,16 37:7 38:15,20 58:14,19 58:25 68:18 69:2 69:4 70:4 78:6 83:19,20 107:22 134:19 138:9 139:15 215:25 216:3 241:10 284:24 285:1 286:15,17,20 329:14,22 safely 78:19,25 79:14,17,22 80:12 83:4,16 93:3,21 safer 139:6,8,14 safety 12:13,25 24:20 61:12 63:6 82:21 84:2 95:25 106:21 108:24 144:10 saint 6:18 sales 114:18 116:13 salts 108:6 samet 104:9 sample 101:10 137:25 138:1 172:25 192:16 193:9 203:22 211:13,16 220:12 224:15 232:18 237:8 251:18 253:17 260:13 262:17,20 270:8 270:11 272:8 276:14,19 292:8 299:3,3 308:14 309:22 318:12 319:7,11,13,15 320:24 321:23 322:2 331:3 338:13 354:24 samples 20:17 21:17,17 23:2,5,16 63:20 107:3 121:16,17 157:11 172:18,24 173:8 174:21 175:10 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [samples - scientific] Page 55 177:25 180:1 192:14 198:7 220:8 223:17 224:3,4,7 273:5,6 276:6 280:4 281:4 281:4,9,25 282:11 297:4,6,21 298:6,7 298:10,24 299:3,8 299:12,19 302:16 303:9,13,21,24 304:7,10 310:12 315:3,18,24 318:3 334:4,13,13,19 335:4 336:16,18 336:20,24 337:10 337:13,25 338:1,8 338:16 340:6,12 340:20 341:3 344:9 350:22 361:25 362:4,15 366:6 370:10 372:5 373:21 374:23 375:12,15 sampling 200:15 359:15 362:23 sanchez 35:8,11 sarcoma 15:7 satisfy 338:14 sauce 139:23 saving 320:1 savorgnan 7:13 saw 82:11 225:6 291:13 300:19 364:16 saying 36:4,21 37:1 38:17 73:6 74:4 79:25 81:9 94:21 108:20 110:5,14 112:16 118:7,8,11,18 125:15 131:7,8 132:14 140:17 142:25 154:9,15 160:21,23 161:15 164:7 168:6 194:16 220:2 228:11 230:15 238:21 243:10 244:4 251:20 252:6 257:16 259:13 262:12,19 262:20 264:7 266:2 268:16,23 270:11 285:10 290:8 291:6,17,19 291:21 311:6,10 311:20 320:24 338:10 346:9 348:10,15 351:21 351:22 352:15,19 352:23 353:10 355:4 357:16 361:18,21,23 365:12 says 39:18 47:12 47:24 48:10 53:4 53:22 61:18,22 62:6,23,25 63:10 63:25 64:22 65:4 65:6 66:17 67:19 74:8 77:17,25 79:15 81:23 106:2 106:8 107:23 111:8 125:1,4 129:3 132:19 136:16 145:23 160:14 161:18 165:4,6 172:16,25 173:2,6,8,23 174:19 175:22 177:24 179:23 180:17,20 181:15 189:9,23 190:2,5,7 191:14,17 192:15 193:22 195:23 198:6,11 199:19 200:17 204:8,21 209:17 212:18 213:19 217:25 219:22 222:2,21 224:15,20 225:20 226:3,7,18,24 227:19,24,25 229:5,9,10 230:1,4 231:14 233:5,7 234:5,10 235:1 236:16,21 237:1,5 237:24 238:16 239:25 240:4 251:4,16,22 252:12,25 254:25 255:10 257:6,12 258:2 261:2,8 264:19 265:1 267:15,19 268:6 269:15,20 270:4,5 270:23 271:3 272:3 276:4 280:2 281:8 282:13,14 285:3 288:6,15,25 297:3,20,24 298:1 298:22 299:2,7,17 300:2,4,8,14,18 301:23 302:6,8 303:12,16,19 304:5,8 306:4,5,22 307:1,3,8 308:11 311:1,9,15 312:15 315:1 320:10,15 323:5 324:22 325:6,19 326:22 328:8 331:12,16 331:25 333:19 335:21,24 337:24 338:18 339:11 340:14,17,23 341:3,11,17 342:4 342:8 343:1,14 344:23 351:17 354:25 356:10 358:9,9,24 359:16 364:17 366:4 sazad 8:14 scanned 341:4 scanning 101:16 165:20 239:9 256:3,14 258:5 277:22 294:5 308:15 scared 125:5,7 scattered 255:24 Schaffner 331:1 schedule 18:5 scheme 191:3 schmidt 76:12 369:5 school 233:17 236:12 243:4 245:20 249:25 252:3,10 260:23 262:16 287:21 332:25 333:19 335:6 367:7 372:13,17 schools 34:16 science 36:10,16 71:9 72:23 73:15 73:24 74:5,8,12,13 74:16,17 95:24 252:13 349:11 sciences 148:24 scientific 82:20 99:23 118:23 119:1,3 158:22 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [scientific - separated] Page 56 174:7 246:25 293:23,23 301:5 scientifically 350:17 scientist 74:5 99:20,25 100:10 117:4 196:13 243:25 266:1 307:8 308:10 333:8 356:7 scientist's 162:10 scientists 108:15 116:25 244:24,25 245:4,17,18 246:6 247:1 252:2 302:4 327:14 scope 356:19 screen 255:25 screening 339:19 screw 127:23 133:23,25 screwed 134:1 seams 295:14 seana 8:12 second 65:19,20 71:11 77:9,25 104:14 124:19 145:11 152:15 159:24 180:9 211:10212:14,16 227:11 239:23 276:5 282:3 283:11 290:16 291:10 302:6 303:11 305:1,20 338:25 347:16 361:13 section 61:22 106:8 235:5 319:7 321:13 see 28:17 44:1 46:13 52:2,14,20 61:19 65:20 66:17 76:22,23 87:14 89:18,20 93:24 95:5 97:7 101:2,5 101:7,14 124:18 131:21 136:10,13 149:20 152:16 153:13 159:8,24 168:24 170:2 172:11 173:7,14 173:23,24 175:20 177:9,16,18,24 178:5,12,14 179:23 182:11,25 185:7,14 186:6 187:1 191:19 193:1 194:4,22 195:16 197:18 201:6,13 208:23 218:8 221:4,5 225:16,17,25 230:22 232:4,7,15 233:23 236:21 238:9 239:25 243:22 249:14 258:4 259:8 264:10 268:4 275:22 276:4 279:8,10,11,15,25 280:9 286:24 292:23 300:13 305:20 317:20 318:6 319:4 320:10 321:6,22 322:24 324:2 326:5 332:9,12 333:12 334:10,11 335:4 339:25 345:20 346:10 347:24 348:9,16 348:25 349:1,3 350:11 352:21 353:9,11 355:2 359:2 361:17,22 362:16 seeing 188:14 265:8 329:10 seek 53:25 seen 28:18,18,19 28:19 52:24 87:25 97:13 102:18 109:23 124:4,9,13 137:7 161:19 197:4 219:12 237:12 238:16 250:10 258:8,13 258:16,22 264:3 288:3 290:6 307:16 309:4 313:14,15 322:12 323:22 328:23 333:17,18 344:21 348:2,4 349:3 360:5 sees 251:20 segment 265:16 select 102:2 selected 189:13,25 253:22 255:8,21 256:15 257:8 277:7 selection 106:13 106:20 selectively 97:3,4 self 329:6 selikoff 284:23 286:14 sell 33:24 68:18 69:2,4,7 70:9,14 93:10 selling 38:19 93:8 115:16 138:20,24 296:8 send 147:9 361:25 362:3,15 sending 118:17 220:11 243:23 262:16,19 366:5 senior 328:4 333:8 sense 42:7 71:22 125:2 128:2 141:16162:17 190:16 295:20,21 sensitive 105:12 278:23 279:5 345:6 350:18 351:10 sensitivity 101:7 353:9 359:20 sent 21:2151:10 56:19 57:3 76:18 146:7 199:1 271:9 273:4 281:10 291:8 364:21 sentence 63:9 66:17 145:12 226:24 227:11,12 228:9,16 229:11 230:4,14 sentences 227:17 228:25 229:21 separate 10:11,12 29:11,18,18 121:1 162:15 163:16 164:16 184:12 214:18 229:15 249:12 255:19 258:10 262:25 273:25 277:15 separated 167:4 167:24 194:10,19 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [separating - silicate] Page 57 separating 50:5 separation 169:20 194:9 sept 375:4 September 266:25 270:3 314:6 324:9 324:16,20 325:1 sequela 151:24 sequicitrate 306:8 series 90:15 166:20 175:10 196:15 198:7,7 355:7 serious 24:14 seriously 107:24 329:15,19,25 serp 336:1 serpentine 173:1,3 222:5,6,10,12,17 335:22 336:1 356:22,23 358:16 serpentines 222:14 serve 13:15 served 13:17 14:12 serves 129:21 service 107:12 172:12 370:8 services 158:23 serving 12:5 159:5 sesqui 244:16 sesquicitrate 243:17 set 51:24 53:8 65:10 67:23 83:19 84:6 113:20 119:12 126:3 144:22 147:12,13 152:12 173:14 176:25 178:23 184:16 188:19 191:20 198:12 202:22 204:14 206:6 212:3 214:21215:17 220:13 223:8 225:1 233:11 242:13 244:19 260:8,19 272:23 280:10 304:23 313:16 324:25 327:7 332:15 336:8 342:9 344:14 355:12 359:24 365:21 sets 10:12 setting 37:6 141:21 settle 211:5 seven 86:19 127:24,25 128:15 133:23 344:19 seventeen 172:4 severely 73:23 245:13 seymour 298:3 sgpblaw.com 5:6 5:6 shaft 316:15 shampoo 123:3,12 134:18 shampoos 337:1 shannon 3:4 shape 89:21 119:1 200:9 210:8 238:1 341:12 shaped 300:4 shards 180:13 257:23 299:21 312:3 share 63:16 shares 30:16 sharing 328:22 sharia 5:9 9:15 sharla.frost 5:11 sharp 155:18 shb.com 5:17 sheet 281:12 379:1 shelf 83:7 203:20 204:4 shell 108:13 shelley 109:16 264:12,19 265:9 265:25 266:14 324:25 344:19 346:9 348:12 351:17 360:3,5 361:13 362:11 364:18 365:7,17 369:7 373:12 376:3,9 shelves 84:3 sheridanite 320:18 ship 20:25 21:1,10 21:16 shipment 366:5 shipped 20:22 21:14 261:3 shook 1:16 5:14 9:6 21:18 372:20 short 19:188:7 274:2 315:14 shortening 73:21 shorter 75:12 shorthand 378:7 show 61:9 72:2 105:18 200:19 217:23 231:14 261:11 330:21 346:7 348:17 361:11 362:13 showed 82:20 159:6 281:24 288:1,4 331:4 shower 32:9,9 86:22,22 87:6,7,11 87:11 158:8,8 267:22,22 272:5,5 272:15,15 275:13 275:13 308:14,14 311:2,2 374:19,19 375:3,3 showing 309:24 325:8 shown 74:18 138:8 186:11215:3 299:10,20319:10 353:1 shows 151:21 211:13 237:25 254:9 shulton 7:16,17,17 7:18,18,20,20 sibling 69:22 siblings 69:24 sic 42:2 77:13 173:1 315:5 side 38:19 39:3 139:20 216:2 331:10 367:17,20 sided 341:12 344:9 sides 343:18 344:2 357:11 358:2 sidewalks 34:19 36:13 signature 152:16 signed 95:17 239:1 377:11 378:19 significant 66:22 307:10 silicate 129:23 281:13 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [silky - source] Page 58 silky 139:21 similar 39:4 140:1 155:19 256:4 similarity 276:24 276:25 306:8 similarly 32:8 303:24 simmons 7:12 simon 5:3 simple 79:8 163:3 263:17 351:8 simply 22:25 43:25 98:17 214:17 254:22 sinai 238:8 243:4 244:20 245:12,15 245:25 246:24 247:9 280:23 287:17,21 290:1 sinai's 310:13 single 322:6 sir 10:22 46:5,10 51:24 52:2 61:7 61:17 63:5 64:3,5 65:10,14 67:23,25 74:12 76:7 80:8 84:6 92:23 104:20 108:18 113:20 124:18 126:3 134:2 136:9,10 144:22 145:2 147:13 152:12 172:6 173:14,21 174:15 176:25 177:6,9 178:7,23 179:21 184:16,19 184:21 186:3,6,16 188:19,23 191:24 195:16 196:4 198:12,19 202:3 202:22 203:1 204:14,17,19 206:6 210:15 212:3,7 222:6 223:8,11,13 225:1 225:4 232:4 233:11,23 235:25 239:15 255:21 258:13 260:8,19 263:14 270:10 271:16 275:21 280:22 286:24 288:13,17 293:16 303:18 304:23 313:16314:1 320:7 321:9 324:13 332:15 334:1 342:9 344:14,18 349:9 353:3 354:7 355:12 359:24 363:17 365:21 sister 127:3 sisters 60:17 sit 30:3 40:23 293:22 site 53:25 145:17 sitting 194:11 situate 174:18 situating 185:15 situation 111:12 147:1214:12 six 14:14 sixteen 26:25 sixty 86:19 size 176:1 223:1 238:1 263:19,22 341:14,18,18,21 sized 115:6 174:21 skin 71:20,23 100:13,20,21 101:6,10 108:17 153:17 168:3 350:10 skip 65:1 111:10 137:21 191:19 198:15 238:11 283:22 319:25 321:7 skipped 79:19 slide 139:20,24 192:17 194:18 slides 71:19 sliding 167:21 slight 279:1 335:15 slightly 31:15 176:1 226:5 slippery 263:23 sloan 364:22 slow 248:7 small 63:19 128:24,25 202:20 202:20 215:19 279:11,15 282:8 291:15 sm art 128:18 267:7 smith 81:20 82:4 237:20 326:25 344:20,24 369:13 370:20 371:17 373:23 smithfield 6:10 smoke 126:25 smooth 263:23 society 142:21 sodium 243:16 244:16 sold 15:20 24:22 25:3 33:24 35:25 42:12 47:20 58:16 71:5 84:8 157:2 274:14 sole 136:21 solutions 2:9 3:9 4:8 somebody 12:6 38:17 225:10 231:12,21 245:10 someone's 147:8 300:13 somewhat 223:1 sonified 282:6 soon 159:23 sophisticated 163:2,16 164:16 216:13 353:14 sorry 27:4 51:15 115:25 116:5 121:12 125:19 175:18 177:7,18 183:16 226:12 234:23 245:20 246:2,17 251:14 255:3 262:19 277:21,23 sort 32:22 49:16 62:7 74:5 77:4 84:23 92:3 100:11 167:13 170:1 207:24 317:2,13 365:16 sorts 315:18 sound 32:22 159:13 271:23 sounds 68:22 243:13 source 46:18 48:21,24 49:9 50:17 51:8,14 66:13 98:21,22 99:1 121:21 166:13,15 168:7 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [source - straight] Page 59 214:8 226:24 231:22 272:9,11 280:5 287:21 296:3 333:25 368:15 sources 28:3 46:24 49:8 67:15 84:19 84:23 85:3,10 87:18 119:22 162:21 166:2 216:7231:17 350:2 sourcing 48:19 49:13 south 6:22 8:3 220:17 space 169:25 170:1 spalding 7:22 speak 29:1 53:19 80:22 93:15,16 354:4 speaking 102:7 115:13 speaks 95:12 specially 8:14 specialties 8:5 specific 84:19 263:15 270:4 299:13 346:15 specifically 136:20 189:13,24 345:15 specification 42:8 49:22 51:20 88:4 90:8,10,14 91:17 97:15 154:6,8,11 154:12,25 161:20 162:12 165:2,15 166:7,18,22 214:7 215:12,14 351:2 specifications 41:19 88:2 345:4 345:7 361:6 specimen 318:6 320:8,11,16 322:7 323:1 specimens 317:22 317:23 321:14 spectroscopy 162:14 spells 124:24 spend 27:16 74:21 74:22 spent 25:17 81:18 sperry 308:15 309:21 310:8 spivak 328:10 split 257:23 spoke 248:17,18 248:19 spoken 35:2 59:22 326:5,7 spokespeople 137:4 spokespersons 136:22,25 sports 59:23 sportsmen 59:24 spot 295:24,24 spotted 192:17 spring 19:4 squibb 6:18 stage 138:10 265:25 stages 203:13 staining 336:16 338:7 339:12 375:14 stamp 65:24 174:16 179:22 236:5 360:7 stamped 61:7,10 234:14 268:3 stamps 28:11 234:23,24 stand 208:5 305:5 standard 41:21 47:16,16 48:1 51:2 94:20 146:6 146:13,24 147:7,8 163:25 214:25 215:18 294:1 standards 10:13 47:14 51:7 212:23 256:1 272:4 standing 159:25 stands 91:8 338:4 342:13 starches 191:8 start 10:184:21 85:9 106:6 121:6 168:18 169:6 170:6 201:5 236:7 269:4 started 12:7 86:15 91:20 138:24 217:12 324:23 343:6 352:12 starting 60:22 86:18 317:25 starts 77:12 240:16 state 1:19:12 10:25 16:8 86:13 156:9 172:20,20 219:25 256:15 266:19 283:14 291:14 370:8 stated 41:3 48:24 107:13 statement 30:24 31:3 68:20 243:24 265:4 359:9 statements 267:10 states 6:24 16:3 18:2 20:23 26:17 51:4,8,12 52:9 82:6 85:11 86:6 89:3,3 114:16 141:7 172:11 215:18216:9 365:4 367:6 statistical 359:18 statistically 349:18 stayed 12:15,20 Steinberg 369:12 sterchele 124:23 Steve 52:18,19 steven 52:3,7 124:20 Stewart 275:25 326:18 stick 243:25 stiff 157:22 stimulated 63:18 stites 328:9 stock 30:6,8 stockholders 190:13 stolzer 364:8 stone 186:8 stop 104:13 112:25 136:3 142:15 206:8 287:11 302:2 310:21 338:24 stopping 133:13 stops 248:13 317:9 story 60:11 134:13 134:14 187:15,16 straight 43:14 137:23,23 139:1,3 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [straight - systematically] Page 60 278:10 street 1:16 5:10,15 5:20 6:10 7:4,9,23 8:3 9:7 39:3 328:10 streets 34:20 36:13 stressed 82:18 stretch 217:7 strike 88:7,10 strong 239:7 stronger 239:3 strongly 37:14 129:17 structure 226:19 227:6 228:1,17 229:6,12 240:5 242:4 273:15 281:13 structures 167:20 167:20 251:12 253:14 stuck 146:7 studied 71:24 studies 72:1 82:20 114:5 144:3 174:9 258:6 333:21 334:25 study 114:8 118:23 119:1 174:3 250:16,19 300:15 304:20 349:12 362:7,16 364:23 366:7,10 studying 199:16 stuff 64:25 139:23 140:20 183:14 200:4 201:9,11,14 210:5 271:9 283:2 287:3 327:11 355:19 subdivision 53:11 54:24 subhedral 320:19 subject 76:11 105:25 107:20 126:12 231:1 257:3 submitted 172:19 235:5 308:14 subordinate 222:22 subscribed 379:21 subscriptions 148:5 149:7 subsequent 160:19 subsidiaries 16:19 subsidiary 1:6,6 substance 141:8 substances 28:6 substantial 78:18 78:24,24 79:13,22 80:12 83:4,9,16,21 93:3,21 276:24 substantially 299:10 substitute 88:8 successor 2:8,9 3:8 3:9 4:7,8 7:17,18 7:20 274:18 sudamenafin 142:5 sued 2:8 3:8 4:7 7:16,18,19 sufficient 359:21 sufficiently 194:18 suggest 313:8 362:3 suggested 52:19 56:1 164:22 suggesting 259:15 311:16346:12 362:18 suggestion 160:17 350:24 suitable 212:22 213:20 suite 5:4,10,15 6:10,16,22 7:14,23 8:12 sulphate 108:7 summarizes 235:3 summary 204:25 254:3 276:4 303:8 sunberg 264:12,19 373:12 super 164:21,25 superior 1:12:1 3:1 4:1 185:21 supplied 27:23 60:21 172:10 178:19 315:4 supply 214:17 231:18 supplying 210:24 supposed 97:4 183:14 suppression 119:9 sure 10:917:18 21:8 27:7 31:10 33:22 72:13 81:6 115:23 116:25 127:10,10 132:24 135:10 149:3 156:12 168:5 171:13,21,21 176:17 183:9 187:18 192:9 214:16 217:4 220:23 227:15 228:22 230:19 239:14 241:19 244:19 266:17 270:8 275:15 287:12 295:13 309:5,5 310:15 311:12318:23 339:9 340:25 342:17 344:22 349:15 355:19 356:16 365:18 367:11 surely 367:4 surety 239:12 294:8 surgical 338:4 surprised 316:13 surprises 281:17 surrounding 322:11 324:12 surveyed 131:9 susceptibilities 38:4 susceptibility 58:2 104:3,22 susceptible 102:7 102:16 suspect 276:21,23 280:3 suspected 52:22 335:21 338:12,18 338:21 suspended 155:24 suspicion 165:19 Sutcliffe 7:2 swear 9:22 switch 282:19 sworn 9:24 368:3 379:21 synopsis 189:9 system 179:5 268:24 systematically 119:17 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [systems - talc] Page 61 systems 102:11 ________ t________ t 6:9 368:6 table 179:6 182:19 186:5,20 187:1 198:6 203:9 205:1 205:6,6 232:3 235:2 tailings 203:15 221:8 take 15:19 17:24 23:2 44:19 46:22 55:1 69:15 74:24 75:1 82:22 92:15 104:16125:11,13 136:6 163:2 164:21 195:18 200:8 201:9 206:8 219:7,15 235:14 264:15 266:11,16 303:4 304:15 313:18 320:1 329:19,25 342:2 365:6 taken 1:15 10:10 133:2 134:25 304:13 307:22 329:15 377:4 378:5 takes 95:11317:7 365:8 talc 6:12 12:13,13 12:25 14:16,18,20 15:6,8,16,20 24:13 24:20,22 25:2,3 28:6 32:8,14,23 33:8 35:20,22,25 36:3,5 37:22,23 38:16,17,17,22,23 39:12,16 40:2,6 46:19,24 47:4,13 48:19,21,24 49:8 49:14,19,21 50:8 50:17 51:14 52:20 53:5,7 54:4 56:2 57:19 58:3,11 61:1163:6,11,14 64:5,7,9,13,15 65:15 66:8,11,13 66:14,20 67:10,14 68:1,2,4,5 70:19 70:25 71:3,4,17,18 76:12 78:11 82:1 82:21 84:2,14,19 84:23 85:10,15,24 86:3,7,15,18,25 87:4 88:3,5,9,13 88:19,19,20,23 89:2,7,9 91:17 94:11,14,16 96:17 96:17 97:7,8 98:21,22 102:1 105:10,18,25 106:10 107:14,16 108:4,8,11 110:13 110:16 113:15 114:2 115:2 119:14,18,22 121:2,18 122:2 126:13 127:1,12 128:12 129:10 134:10 135:15,18 136:20 138:6,9,15 138:24 139:14,18 139:19 140:14 142:24 143:4 144:3,4,8 153:20 154:7,9,11,12,14 154:16,22,25 156:21 157:1 159:5 160:9,17,23 162:13,21 165:13 166:2,24 167:4,5 167:17,18,18 168:3,23,25,25,25 169:2,5,7,16,17,18 169:20,20 170:11 170:13,13,19 173:9,16,17 174:22,24,25 175:9,14,15,23,24 176:19 180:1,4,5 180:11,12,22,24 181:7,16,23 182:20,21 183:2 183:17,18,19,21 185:8,17,20,20,22 186:11 187:17,23 188:2,2,4,5,11,12 189:11 191:1,3,7 192:16,20 193:13 193:13,23,24 194:2 196:12,24 197:20,24,25 199:12,13,21,22 200:4,5,7,8,8,12 200:13,17,19,20 200:22,22,24,24 203:13 206:24,25 207:5,8 209:21 210:24 211:7,18 211:20,23 212:23 213:6,7,8 216:7 218:25 219:2,7,15 219:20,25 220:8 220:10,12,24,25 221:8,9,22,25 222:3,4,9 223:3 225:21,22 226:4,6 226:21,24,25 227:1,2,8,18,21 228:3,5,12,13,14 228:19 229:8,14 229:16 230:7,13 231:1,3,9,9,12,17 231:18,19,21,22 232:6,7,10 234:8 237:9 238:12,22 240:1 241:6,8,10 241:13 243:19 244:1,5*17 250:20 250:21,24 251:4 251:11 257:3,7,9 257:22,22,23 258:10,10,11,14 258:24,25 259:1,2 259:5,6,8,10 260:14 261:11 262:4,6,11,15,24 263:1,8,11,12,19 263:20 265:6,7,21 269:22 273:5,20 273:23 274:1 275:12 276:6 277:18281:11,15 281:16 282:6,9 288:2 290:7 291:7 295:2,14 296:8 299:21,21 308:21 310:1 312:2,3,3 315:19 316:8 317:1,8,11 318:21 318:22 319:11,13 319:16,19 320:14 320:16,17,25 321:22 322:1,14 323:25 324:12 326:24 328:12 329:1,6,15 330:20 331:24 332:8,9 333:6,7,9,11,22 334:4 344:25 345:5,17 346:2,3,7 346:11,15 350:3 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [talc - tests] Page 62 350:22 351:19 352:24 356:13,14 361:6,9,11 362:1,7 364:19,20 365:3 366:7,24 367:13 368:15,20,23 369:3,8,13 370:5 371:20 372:10 373:5,8,18,21 374:19 375:7,12 375:22 376:3,7,10 talcosis 264:24 265:6,19 talcs 42:12,19 58:9 66:21 67:11 75:23 84:8 93:19 99:1 161:6,7 165:9 328:16 334:1 talcum 129:18,19 130:5 287:14 298:5 talk 28:16,23 37:21 40:3 46:5 72:6 75:19 84:18 85:20 87:17 88:15 91:16 92:1,3 97:23 140:19 141:25 166:9 178:25 187:12 192:13 238:19 253:18 267:15 273:21 276:19 289:25 294:11 315:11 317:1 342:10 351:11,13 351:15 352:11 363:9 talked 59:1 135:20 137:22 163:18 239:8 242:18 248:10 281:20 305:7 308:17 347:25 talking 25:2 38:1 80:18,20 91:18 92:7,24 114:17 115:16151:9 153:19 154:8,12 154:13,22 174:24 176:18 180:4 185:8 198:22 205:6 210:4 215:8 215:9 221:21,24 239:23 240:22 241:21,24 246:2,9 246:11,16,17,18 246:20 248:7 258:14 260:1 265:13,16 277:24 277:25 278:11 281:3 286:4 305:20 306:1 307:6,7 310:22 317:2,4,20,21 318:1,5,9 326:21 345:23 347:11 350:6 355:23 360:13 365:19 talks 154:6 166:11 316:6 318:8 tangel 370:21 tank 167:24 tape 282:19 team 54:22 technical 216:2 239:4 technique 277:12 277:13 290:5,10 292:2 293:23 338:7 346:10 362:12 364:20,20 366:16 techniques 105:12 165:21 166:21 216:13 271:7,11 309:14,17 345:6,9 361:7,17 technology 77:19 268:24 283:20 telephone 1:7 6:2 7:2 8:2 tell 21:5 22:13,14 30:13 31:10 34:12 55:19 62:15 69:25 76:1 84:21 125:12 183:1 197:17 201:7 217:2 236:8 245:5,10 255:22 278:16 284:4 290:12 292:1 304:24 357:19 telling 50:16 64:19 65:7 79:12 80:11 191:11 249:2 269:21 271:5 314:16 332:3 tells 78:22 174:23 175:6 189:8 198:4 286:5 314:11 telofski 124:23 369:10 tem 120:6121:14 122:3 342:18 343:14 358:22 375:23 ten 17:14,19 19:10 156:7 308:3 313:7 349:12,14 tended 60:16 122:4 tenovus 250:16,19 251:15 281:3,9,25 tens 17:2,3 30:19 term 43:12 44:18 50:7 126:23 135:23 325:18 termed 90:11 terms 17:19 99:21 210:24 271:24 territory 261:10 261:17 test 51:2167:9,12 69:11 90:15,25 99:25 100:8 101:23 120:12 121:22,24 122:2 138:3,10 201:18 208:20 232:18 255:15 256:1,6,7 288:3 291:20,22 342:13,18 346:3 349:18 351:4,5,10 352:3 358:9 359:5 359:11,11 tested 67:11 195:8 205:13 365:13 testified 9:25 14:8 15:12 106:9 testify 18:2 testifying 14:4 testimony 26:13 26:20 107:7 377:4 378:4,9 testing 121:14 122:11 192:10 195:9 239:4,13,25 267:17 272:25 298:16 356:11 358:8 376:6 tests 91:3 144:7 166:20 175:7 187:2 188:15,16 239:8 256:17 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [tests - times] Page 63 290:2 353:14 355:7,10 361:20 teuscher 3:3,4 7:11 8:5 9:911:23 368:11 379:3 texas 5:5,10,16 text 249:11 thackston 6:15 thank 46:7 53:24 124:17 139:3 145:3 171:20 191:25 198:20 204:18 223:12 225:5 230:18 264:16 275:20 280:21 293:16 295:18 296:14 314:2,25 323:4 342:23 thanks 172:1 theoretical 133:16 theory 18:3 128:19 135:4 241:7 326:23 therapeutic 141:9 thereabout 134:21 thereof 377:6 thermal 253:15 thick 233:21 295:14,15,18 thin 235:5 319:7 thing 56:7 65:22 68:24 72:7 131:12 131:14,22 148:17 215:24 269:3 290:20 367:17 things 12:13 38:4 44:25 50:6 101:2 101:2 148:6 149:4 174:17 183:8 217:11222:19 224:12 231:11 265:19 278:11 315:10 think 20:19 27:18 31:23,24 41:6,22 49:12 54:9 56:15 57:9 58:17 61:8 61:18 71:3 74:2 77:9 80:14 87:6 95:1 102:18 104:14 108:23 122:5 123:6,6,10 123:23,23 124:25 128:21 133:19 135:23 141:11 142:3 149:9 150:15 156:19 158:1,6,12 168:21 178:9 182:10 190:23 197:14 199:10 211:4,5,15 220:6 234:19 240:12 242:25 252:12 267:1 268:25 274:14 279:25 284:6 292:22 320:7,13 324:2 327:16 328:4 329:18 331:11,16 333:12 334:10,11 351:14 353:12,13 363:24 thinking 123:11 123:12 207:25 277:19 279:20 thinks 283:17 285:7 286:5 288:7 288:16 289:12 third 6:4 173:23 252:23 291:10 314:3 thoroughly 197:5 thought 23:2 54:15 55:20 208:1 246:2,9 306:7 thoughts 285:12 thousand 30:16,19 30:20,21 114:24 131:5 350:9 thousands 17:1,2 17:3 25:12 30:19 81:15 114:21 115:16 116:6 123:18 271:17 273:6 three 56:19,19 57:3 72:12 76:25 102:12 109:12 126:20 129:22 130:22 154:3,24 195:3 207:1 256:17 261:19 274:6 276:6,20,23 287:4 288:23 289:11 290:8 293:9 343:10,20 351:5 352:7 365:22 366:6 threw 22:13 throw 177:7 tidbit 339:3 ties 40:19 41:5 52:22 tightly 134:1 time 9:4 10:5,14 18:23 22:1 25:21 25:23 26:5,13,14 27:16 28:20 49:8 51:12 63:7,7 72:3 72:11 73:3 74:20 75:4,6,9,12,14,15 75:18 78:3 80:1,2 84:10 88:15 94:20 97:10 107:8 108:16 111:22 120:6 126:17 127:2,15 132:22 133:9,19 134:23 134:25 136:3,21 138:23 153:15 157:12,15,19,20 158:1 159:14 164:24 165:11 167:5 171:15 195:11 205:13 217:2 238:23 241:17 244:6 247:8,15 249:17 249:21 255:12 266:23 267:13 271:12 273:10 274:2,12 280:15 284:2,20 285:4 289:9 291:6 294:17 296:7 311:19,19313:18 320:1 324:23 327:14,21 330:25 332:7 333:17 336:19 339:1 352:9 355:22 361:11,11,13 363:12 timeframe 120:2 times 14:12 27:2,4 187:3,8 251:7 258:22 270:18 280:1 287:8 288:3 289:16,19 290:25 292:8,13 343:20 349:13,15,19 350:9 360:5 363:7 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [tina - tremolite] Page 64 tina 1:3 tiny 271:24 tipped 126:20 127:3 tissue 240:7 242:6 250:16,20 251:15 251:21 281:4,18 titanite 176:4 180:14 titanium 54:3 title 46:17 65:17 150:22 199:10,14 234:4 296:22 333:4 tm 342:13 tm7019 358:16 tm7024 342:12,25 today 9:4 15:19 26:21 27:16 28:17 30:3 59:6 60:18 61:9 64:8 65:8 79:4 81:3 91:23 91:24 95:5 162:5 214:8 215:11 216:6,8,15,18 242:9 256:8,9,13 256:14 266:19 293:22 294:18 330:14 toilet 345:3 360:13 360:22 toiletries 91:9 toiletry 90:11 158:23 told 18:1121:1 42:15 56:7,13 58:8 70:23 75:21 93:1,5 171:22 191:2 270:17 285:3 312:25 328:9,11 330:24 tolerance 42:19,22 57:5,11,19 tomorrow 27:17 367:10,24 ton 115:5,9 tons 114:21,24 115:17 116:6 tool 100:20,23,24 101:1,1,5 102:2 top 17:14,14,14,19 52:2,13,13 67:8 82:14 106:2 110:8 123:22 125:20 128:6,12,14 133:23 137:19 143:13 148:25 167:24 174:19 175:18 182:14 186:4,5 193:6 194:11 197:17 203:8 225:16 233:2 288:25 293:12 310:1 316:18 320:6,8 337:16 356:10 topic 73:11 158:16 topics 92:3 total 213:6,14 298:23 303:20 318:16 totally 23:1 238:17 244:7 245:22 262:14 touch 71:10 72:21 72:23,24 73:6,22 73:24 74:2,9,25 75:3 108:13 touching 73:18 140:22 141:14 tough 177:19 tourmaline 261:13 tower 5:15 toxic 346:17 toxicants 105:1 toxicologist 12:8 13:14 14:5 28:5 34:15,21 37:20 52:9 126:1 toxicologists 37:10 38:2 53:9 155:1 toxicology 12:10 264:24 265:20 tpf 348:7 362:3 tr 178:4 205:23 trace 63:16 89:5 96:17 161:5 165:9 176:2,7 178:1,6 183:24 184:2 186:12 188:16 195:20 198:8 202:14,20 204:7 205:19 206:1 209:14 211:25 213:21,25 214:5 216:20 218:25 219:17,21 222:23 224:20 232:10 238:13 243:18 257:9,16,21 277:17 282:5 288:1,16 289:12 291:13 293:19 294:6 306:15 310:18 311:14 312:18 335:7,9,15 335:19 340:19 341:5 traced 208:25 traces 216:16 244:1 283:18 284:23 286:12 288:8 331:4,4,13 331:18,19 346:7 346:15 348:17 361:12 track 114:9 116:18 317:25 trade 91:7 traditional 129:19 traditionally 59:7 60:13 71:12 transcribed 378:7 transcript 10:15 10:18 171:15 378:5,8 transcription 377:6 translate 94:23 translation 212:20 transmission 90:19 91:3 101:16 119:21 120:3,12 121:5 162:13 165:1216:15 239:9 255:18 279:13 292:10,12 292:18 294:5 297:9 353:15 trapped 108:11,13 108:14 travel 18:1,8,24 travis 5:15 treating 141:16 142:8 146:8 treatment 141:9 tremolite 43:16,20 43:21,24,25,25 44:3,5,8,12,22 45:1 89:4,6,13,16 89:18,20,24 90:1 92:7 96:13,18,22 96:23,25 97:1,11 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [tremolite - two] Page 65 98:12 99:3,9 159:9,10 161:5,7 161:12 162:2,15 162:16 163:17 164:17,17 165:5,8 165:17,22,23 168:17 169:7,14 176:19 178:2,6 181:18 182:7 183:2,7,10,24 184:3,5,13 186:12 187:9 188:16 193:13,17,24 195:12,20 198:10 200:23,25 201:21 201:22 202:6,12 203:16 204:7 205:18 209:24 210:8 213:10,21 213:25 214:4,5 216:11,16,21 217:15 218:1,5 224:18,21 225:24 226:2,20 227:7 228:2,18 229:7 230:6 232:10,23 233:12,14,15 238:14,22 257:10 257:17,20 258:3,7 258:12,14,17,20 258:20,21 259:12 259:16,19 260:13 261:13,20,25 262:18,21 263:11 263:13,25 264:2,5 264:6 297:22 298:23 299:5,6,11 300:1 301:2,21 302:22 303:4,10 303:14,20,25 304:6,9,16 305:14 306:7,24 307:19 307:19 309:2,4 310:17,20 311:13 311:18,21,25 312:4,7,8,10,17,20 313:9,10 316:3,5 318:13 319:11,13 319:15,18,22 320:21,25 321:1,2 321:22 322:1,6,11 322:18 323:8,13 323:13,16 324:12 325:10,14,18,19 331:13,19 335:7,9 338:8,12,16 339:16 340:16 342:6 346:7,11,15 346:20,21,24 348:6,17,25 351:20 352:22,24 353:11 354:25 355:2,8 357:2 361:12,17,19,22 362:2,8,13,19,24 363:1 366:7,11 367:1,12 tremolite's 201:24 349:4 trend 359:13 trial 10:6,16 74:14 74:14 trials 18:2 tried 53:4,6 tries 137:10 trip 188:24 370:22 trouble 367:12 true 13:20 24:15 24:17 34:23 49:1 59:19 77:15,22 92:10,11 101:22 106:22 116:6,7 126:9 132:7 135:21 137:5 138:20 147:21 154:1 168:15 176:19 179:8 184:25 185:1,9 186:12 193:17,18 202:8,9 212:11 231:20 253:8 262:22 271:25 272:1 297:18,25 315:25 318:13 319:14 329:12 350:3 359:8,9 360:11 377:5 378:8 trust 69:4,7 70:8 70:13 267:11 trusted 68:18 69:2 truth 70:19,24 try 39:8 52:20,24 56:1 95:24 101:5 119:1 139:16 168:19 169:12 182:15 196:23 198:16 269:12 313:18 367:12 trying 118:13,15 118:16 142:3 200:3,4 205:8 268:14 328:15 350:22 363:8 tub 126:19 127:3 128:3 tubular 253:5,14 254:5 tucker 5:9 tuckerellis.com 5:11 tuesday 1:12 377:4 378:5 turn 46:10 61:17 64:2 66:3 67:7 77:9 82:13 110:8 136:15 137:19 143:11 145:11 149:16 151:18 152:15 174:15 175:17 179:21 180:8 185:12 186:3,16 195:1 199:5,18 208:17 209:17 221:21 232:2 235:9 236:4 259:6 276:18 303:18 305:19 314:3 317:18 318:5 319:2 320:2 321:8,17 turns 84:7 twenty 337:25 two 10:11,12 28:3 50:6 52:13 81:25 83:23,23 95:14,16 122:4 123:23 126:20 130:25 140:1 163:16 179:14 185:18 193:10 195:2 201:19 207:1 208:1 216:7 227:17 228:9,20 228:25 229:21 232:6,6,9 234:23 234:24 242:10 263:3 265:19 267:21 268:18 270:17 272:6,8 274:6 276:15,24 278:19 280:20 293:9 297:4 298:6 298:23 299:3,8 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [two - validate] Page 66 303:20 313:22 338:13 347:4 351:5 357:21 358:1 359:14 362:15 364:15 365:17 type 50:11 98:19 142:5 238:9 327:3 types 43:6 64:5 149:6 163:16 174:9 186:7 297:14 315:20 typical 253:4,15 typically 201:13 202:13 334:12 u u 42:2 ubiquitous 34:18 ufda 94:25 uk 12:11,16 22:25 82:9 157:20 158:1 158:25 314:9,24 ultimately 22:5 206:23 ultra 162:4 ultrasonic 196:12 196:23 283:20,21 ultrasound 196:16 197:8 unable 217:4 251:10 277:2 unacceptable 144:10,17 153:18 underflow 187:12 201:8,9,11,14,21 202:8 underlined 64:11 106:2 227:10,11 underling 125:24 understand 11:5,8 11:9,11,12,18,22 11:24 12:121:8 25:4,5 26:5 33:25 36:1,5 38:2 40:25 43:21 44:2 48:22 81:12 83:18 90:5 96:6 99:20 114:20 165:24 215:7,8 220:7 246:1 262:24 271:16,18 273:15 276:11 294:16 350:8 360:25 understanding 12:25 17:5 27:22 27:25 45:18,21 84:25 88:6 89:25 115:5 121:15 127:22 162:2 168:23 209:10 285:23 290:24 294:25 323:12 330:24 346:24 understands 69:6 69:10 95:19 284:22 286:11 295:8 understood 58:1 67:3,25 296:7 undesirable 153:16 223:3 undoubtedly 261:16 undue 118:6,9,10 unground 120:14 120:17 unilever 6:24 unique 190:14 united 1:17 6:24 9:8 16:3 18:1 20:23 26:17 51:4 51:8,12 52:9 53:11 54:23 82:6 85:11 86:6 114:15 141:7 172:11 215:18 216:9 367:6 units 28:24 universe 27:23 university 245:19 248:18 297:7 298:4 367:5 unknown 38:12 129:22 unpleasant 153:17 unprofessional 118:20 unreasonable 31:20 71:22124:7 139:12 162:10 163:7 unreliable 290:5 unsafe 83:8 unusual 220:11 259:8 301:5 367:21 unusually 107:16 upgraded 107:1 upward 193:8 upwards 102:13 urged 129:17 use 10:1842:1,7,9 43:12,12 44:18,22 52:23 56:17 59:7 59:13,22 60:1,4 63:12 73:12 74:22 78:5 85:24 86:3 96:1,21 99:25 100:10,11,20 102:2 105:18 120:6 130:5 134:16 135:24 138:8 139:8 140:1 142:24 143:7 165:4,4 188:1 191:7,12 196:23 206:11214:9 228:7 230:10 232:21 240:20 241:12 275:13 294:2 296:25 297:15 300:8 301:24 302:8 331:25 332:9 351:4,9 355:8 374:9 usefulness 61:12 users 32:24 59:5 59:17 60:7 66:23 67:3,13,17 70:18 116:18119:18 144:9,16 uses 49:19 229:3,4 230:9 312:11 325:24 346:9 usual 281:11 283:5 usually 28:18 69:20 176:21 178:5 316:20 337:4 v 372:21 379:3 vacuum 169:9 vai 85:12,21,25 98:22 189:3 190:11,18,22,23 190:25 262:9 315:16 valid 18:8 95:5 133:19,20 162:18 validate 47:4 51:14121:21 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [validated - wealthy] Page 67 validated 120:22 238:24 290:11 295:5 validation 121:16 valley 190:15,17 190:17 261:5,11 261:17 262:9 value 17:9 71:6 72:24,25 73:2 113:14129:21 130:10 350:24 var 320:18 variability 295:9 variance 313:1 variety 182:7 various 13:16 29:2 43:9 67:14 106:6 208:11 258:6 358:4 vary 343:23 vast 39:24 vein 316:20 verbatim 229:9,10 270:23 378:9 verdolotti 4:3 9:9 11:25 368:12 379:3 veritext 9:3 379:1 Vermont 66:21 67:11 86:13,18 87:11 88:7,10,19 107:16 108:4 129:11 173:7 206:23 208:18 215:11 218:16,17 218:25 219:2,4,20 219:25 220:16,17 220:19 232:6,10 233:3 234:2,7 257:8 258:14 260:14 262:13 263:12 269:22 273:16 346:3,6,11 348:16 351:19 352:21,24 361:11 362:1,24 364:19 365:3 366:6,24 vernacular 29:1 version 91:21 158:25 297:1 300:9 302:9 303:11,11 304:3,4 versus 9:9 111:15 112:1 120:17 214:12,19 273:16 video 1:10 videographer 8:24 9:2,21 280:12,14 363:11 videotape 10:15 171:16 view 111:21 112:21 113:3 306:8 viewed 41:4 viewing 251:5 views 93:17 159:11 villa 190:13 vincent 145:12 vintage 23:15 virginia 172:21 vision 7:14 visit 292:7 visitations 118:10 visualization 317:2 voi 379:4,20 volume 114:18 volunteer 330:8 volunteered 363:7 volunteers 311:24 vs 1:5 2:6 3:6 4:5 vt 173:6,12 211:24 370:9,10 371:20 vulnerability 104:25_________ _______ w_______ w 6:9 walk 39:3,3 walker 8:2 wall 7:9 315:19,19 316:7,15,18,23,23 328:10 waiter 298:9 want 28:24 46:10 66:3 70:18 92:23 95:1 101:25 102:22 105:18 106:20 117:8,12 125:14 151:2 153:8 170:2 171:23 195:17,18 201:10,14 210:5,6 210:9 235:18 248:20 252:12 254:18 258:4 263:4 269:3,8 274:23 286:18 289:25 292:2 313:24 314:3 317:24 338:24 340:25 351:11,15 351:17 364:14 367:20 wanted 100:12,19 101:14 105:16 241:12 279:22 283:3 339:3 wants 141:25 war 72:3 85:2,10 warning 133:9,14 134:11,20,25 135:6 138:5 156:20 204:11 warnings 133:18 Washington 7:4 water 71:16 way 22:4 44:13 72:2 108:12 134:17,18 146:8 165:14 168:2 171:17176:12 177:8 187:11 194:21 196:22 216:1 217:6 229:18 236:21 251:14 252:6 259:3 265:10 291:15 295:1 315:21 334:13 337:9 345:16 347:23 349:17 353:8 365:5 366:14 378:16 we've 10:3 17:25 36:11 41:18 85:8 92:13 108:2 120:4 135:20 180:4 198:22 206:7 216:9 217:22 239:8 258:19,22 263:10 264:3 278:11 307:16 308:17 311:9 313:9 322:11 328:23 333:17,18 344:20 349:3 355:23 360:5 361:18 366:23 wealthy 190:14 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [web - x] Page 68 web 53:25 145:17 website 146:22 week 12:21 18:23 19:24,25 20:10 359:17,17,18 weekly 122:5,7,8 334:13 359:14 weeks 25:12,18 81:18 88:9 122:5 weight 341:6 weissler 308:12 309:23 310:8 312:25 330:19 wenninger 330:14 went 87:10 170:22 197:13 203:19 248:17 west 7:23 220:24 221:8 233:6 wet 71:14 wh 369:12 white 169:17,17 whiteness 66:20 whittaker 2:10 3:104:95:19 8:14 9:20 who've 55:4 wide 343:21 widely 59:8,22,23 60:14 113:13 241:17 wider 159:25 widespread 36:12 59:13 60:1,4,15 63:12 width 309:25 310:3 wild 104:2 william 6:9 160:8 223:17 371:17 william.polaski 6:11 williams 372:20 window 19:1 Windsor 86:13,16 106:11 220:24 221:8233:6234:2 273:17 275:5,8,23 276:8 334:12 356:12 364:9 373:20 376:7 wise 38:18 wish 145:15 336:9 wishes 62:10 withdrawal 291:1 withdrawn 33:12 witness 9:10,22 10:7 13:15,17,20 14:13 18:21,25 92:19 152:25 171:19 181:12 206:17 248:6,9 332:17,19,22 363:19 368:3 378:4 379:4 witnesses 35:3 word 40:25 41:1,6 42:1,8 56:17 79:19 83:10 89:12 109:5 110:22 125:11,13,14 187:25 228:8 229:3,4 230:9,10 258:24 325:24 346:21 words 12:4 40:18 48:12 93:23,24 154:18 170:9 200:1 257:19 263:2 354:15,16 wore 71:13 work 92:17 131:25 161:4 162:12 165:7 167:21 197:11 234:6 245:13,18 246:10 248:23 264:22 268:14 310:10,14 worked 12:9,11 16:12 30:8 86:13 286:10 334:2 351:2 364:5 workers 149:18 working 27:9 53:7 54:1 145:21 146:2 146:2,9,17 352:2 370:5 workplace 95:20 95:21 works 306:17 world 17:8 43:21 53:10 190:14 220:9 334:5 world's 162:1 worldwide 16:7 16:20,22 47:16 131:3 worried 106:18 190:25 worth 30:4 52:24 132:14 219:3 write 53:2 80:15 111:23 153:13 169:24 171:1 177:16 181:6 192:6,7 259:25 313:6 324:11 325:13 334:10,15 334:19 335:25 341:18 347:23,24 writes 124:22 289:13 306:4,11 306:14 writing 112:19 113:1 160:4 162:25 163:5,20 170:6 217:1 289:15 308:7 writings 171:12 written 10:1547:1 79:1 83:23 110:18 112:6,7 152:10 166:5,6 173:13 215:15 266:10 330:22 334:14 wrong 84:23 96:12 100:23,24 101:5 101:20,23 111:25 113:5 124:24 125:12 243:2 246:16 250:23 251:25 265:2 266:6 284:3 303:2 327:23 wrote 56:18 80:23 81:14 109:15,16 110:20 111:19,20 113:17 154:18 158:19 160:13 213:24 214:23 259:20 266:12,14 266:18 312:1 313:11 331:19,21 354:18 wt 260:23 wyeth 7:18,19 x x 90:18,25 165:19 216:14 235:4,6 239:8 256:3 258:4 277:19,24,25 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [x - yves] Page 69 278:12 292:5,6 294:3,4 297:8 331:6,25 334:24 335:3 341:14,14 341:21,23 353:14 361:7 368:1,6 xi 88:22 xrd 192:23 278:8 278:11,16 279:20 332:1,9________ _______ y______ yada 356:19,19 yeah 17:14,20,22 19:4,6 20:19 21:25 22:16 29:16 40:22 46:14 49:5 50:24 54:6 56:4 64:24 66:5 77:7 77:11 87:20,23,23 92:19 100:17,17 100:25 101:4 102:5 106:1 107:10 109:8 111:2 112:17 113:19 114:4,24 115:7,12,14,20 116:11,22 117:18 118:16,24 121:13 122:18 123:3,13 123:16 125:13,13 125:19 126:8,10 126:16 127:14,21 128:18 129:8,8 131:6132:4,12,18 133:7 134:8 136:14 137:6,16 137:18 138:17 139:12 140:8,17 140:21,23 141:4 143:10 145:19 147:14 148:4,16 148:21,23 149:11 150:16,20 151:3 152:18 153:11 155:7,9,16,20,22 155:22 156:4 157:5 158:6 160:5 160:12 163:22 164:3 168:21 169:9 172:22 173:25 176:23 177:11,15 178:3 178:11,15,15,17 178:17 179:12,15 180:18,25 181:12 182:9 186:15,25 187:15,24 188:9 193:5 195:10,23 196:6 198:2,23 201:11203:11,23 205:8 206:3 207:9 208:10,19,22 209:1,4,6,16 211:3 214:22 219:10,10 219:14,18 220:6 222:1224:16,19 225:8,17 226:1,13 227:23 230:3,24 232:11 234:17,24 235:21 236:20 237:11,13,18,22 238:19 239:18,21 240:2,24,24 242:8 242:11,14,21 244:14 246:14 247:4 249:13,15 250:18 252:4 253:9,11,20 254:20 256:12 257:14 258:19 259:18 260:4,17 262:23 265:1,18 267:3,25 268:11 269:1 270:22 272:17,17 276:2 276:17 277:8 278:5,9,9 279:1,4 279:12 280:13 281:1 283:7,9 286:3 287:6,16,24 288:10,20 289:2,5 289:7,9 290:10 292:5 293:13 294:21,25 296:17 300:10,20 301:18 301:22 302:25 305:25 307:10 308:19 310:7 312:1 313:21 314:22 315:8,14 316:10,19,22,24 316:25 317:12,17 318:14,14 319:12 319:20,23 320:5 321:19,24 322:13 322:15,20 323:3 323:10,19 325:4 325:16,21,23 326:8 327:5,13,13 327:15,16 331:16 331:21 332:2,5,7 332:13,17,19 333:15,16 334:22 335:11,17 336:3,3 336:10,25 337:3 337:12,14,22 338:23 339:11 340:5,10,23 343:5 343:12 345:25 346:5 348:10,14 348:23 350:14,16 351:12,23,23 352:23,25 354:16 356:3 357:4 358:18,23,25 360:6,12,15 362:10,18,22 365:5,10,12,14,15 365:20 366:2,9,17 367:3 year 13:6 18:22 19:4 22:16 72:12 114:20,21 115:17 177:2 190:12 230:21 242:9,25 years 12:16 19:10 21:24 23:25 36:12 68:19 84:21 85:18 87:22 91:10 112:12 115:22,22 130:16 133:5,6,14 134:5,7,9,11 143:20 151:4 156:7 162:19 214:12 220:21 231:16 241:22,24 242:10 271:13 273:5,5,6 274:6 337:4,13 352:7 yep 92:18 102:20 133:24 yielded 185:19 yolk 108:12,14 york 6:4,4 7:9,9 148:24 173:9 208:12 284:16 286:10 289:16 290:2,25 297:7 298:4 young 6:15 103:2 128:20 yves 6:18 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [z - zircon] z z 298:3 zahm 103:17 zero 42:19,22 57:5 57:11,11,13,13,15 57:19 99:21 284:24 286:15,20 359:6,7 zircon 176:3 180:15 Page 70 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234