Document 99B66DXeNwwRrBZn4725X4LD5

FILE NAME Insurance Industry INS DATE 1981 Aug 31 DOC INS073 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION Memo RE Discussion with Dr. Kotin on Aug 19 1981 at M Headquarters about Knowledge of Asbestos in Insurance Industry v M Knowledge t . MEMORANDUM TO FROM RE DATE File 10-49 Terry E. Sikes 288 : Discussion with Dr. at JM headquarters Kotin on Augu 19 198 August 31 1981 On August 19 1981 I met with Dr. Paul Kin Kin at JM headquarters I first explained to him that Will looking for information pertinent to the concealmen defence raised by some of the insurers and that what With * Br interested in was the extent of the insurance industry's knowledge about the risks of asbestos disease Dr. Kotin stated that he is certain the insurance industry know before JM about the risks associated with exposure to asbe tos He was very adamant about this although I am not sure he really has the facts to back up this conclusion When I asked him why he was so sure the suratn industry knew before JM he drew a graph on the blackbear in his office The graph was supposed to show the compe compe of medical information and data known by various group during the years 1925 through 1980. I will not try to reproduce this graph here it suffices to say that the graph shows the insurance industry as the pout know le. during that entire time period followed by genes academia industry and labor in that order I int thought this graph related to only but it sume pparent Information aie at Dr. Matin aan 1312 1312 1312 1312 , 9 that he was talking about a much more veneer body w ledge relating to all types of trauma and disabilitydisability I asked him what a graph for knowledo t ar. a tut would look like he made a few adjustment | his oon but basically the ranking of the various reps in ter of who was most knowledgeable was the sam as that / more general body of knowledge for I asked him what his reasons were for think zat + , insurance industry was so much more knowledable than all other segments of the populations For Ghit tard, le the insurance industry had a greater eco incentiv any other group to put all the available de fl togethe togethe get an overview of the situation He also pointed to Toli statement that life insurance companies would not insu tt asbestos workers and said this statement made very on shows 21 sense that the insurers concealment defense is Another reason Di. Kotin believes the insuras insuras industry knew about the risks belore JM is tast the companies were in the business of offering alive en / I do not know how much Dr. Ketin really thouald ob the conclusion represented by his graph H nye he writing a book on the history of environmental an schence including occupational health s iF *- oe: this graph is based on considerable shody : did get the impression however 45 he w lan. to a large extent he was doing t off the ' , 1 t 2 Hoffman is the fellow who Bureau of Labor Statistics in wote the rep 1918 on to 3 tory Diseases in Dusty Prades was with Metropolitan 1. te Lasu kotin said to alce Cangany Cangany b foe t! ty thin: that and controlling risks. He suggeste: occupational health suggested suggested that probably get the insurance risks we could admit admit the the Dr. Kotin companies companies in in following fashion history history environmental and medical writing book hima list , including including health If we gave occupational in the Or Wit? he could write to them carriers indemnity effect connectio connectio and ask them something to the that project whi ada advice on occupational disease. did they begin giving but I disease ( a "/ on his suggested procedure not comment Kotin going off on his own and doin} concerned about Dr. without our knowledge even if 2 doin this sort of thing Kotin Kotin said he would get something useful in reply for example Smukier OF fade |, other professor type any Kotin mentioned RSV RSV during an earlier (two of the doctors medical experts could the same sam interview as potential thing. he knew knew names any books books X asked Dr. Kotin doctors safety safety with which insurance company or periodicals would have given given would have been familiar information pr. risks risks asbestos asbestos disease Kotin information about book book of the HS librar librar see then took me to discussion discussion Jinet Jinet in memorandum McGrath began off the shelves shelves Poo quickly and began pulling 0 af all of them Dr. Dr. having me to get names names suggested these bocks and look paok references to someone go through tee published procedings procedings nenestos discare. of confere::es, published procedinus of the Dr. Kotin Looks sargeted sargeted fed also looking for references to who has attended those c ferences Dr. Kotin says that he has been trying to get from the New York Academy of Sciences a list of the attende at the Selikoff Conference but that so far they have : n unable to come up with any records of who attended that conference Dr. Kotin mentioned some books on industrial hygiene and occupational health that he thought insurance company personnel would have been familiar with 1. Best's Safety Directory - the one he showed me was the 1973 edition but Dr. Kotin said this directory dates back 25-35 years It lists products the availability of consultants on various occupational diseases etc. This is one of the places where insurance companies advertiro their expertise and willingness to offer advice on indistrial hygiene and occupational health 2. Patty's Industrial Hygiene and Toxicology Dr. Kotin showed me a relatively recent edition edited by Louis and Lester Cralley The first edition of this book came out some 40 years ago 3. Two books referred to by Kotin as Sappington and Johnstone - Dr. Kotin had these books in his home library so could not give me the titles These were apparently published in the late 1930s He says all older school do public health example Johns Hopkins Harvard world have these old editions Dr. Kotin suggested we ook in such booke ore: chapters writter by insurance cor any perso1 n He made reference to the Registrar of Factories Annual Releas published insurance in the United Kingdom Dr. Koti companies must have been aware of believes ) these bec u 1 for a long time they were the only systeratic effort ts record data on industrial mortality due to asbestos I did not have an opportunity to review the wh Dr. Kotin showed me in any detail but think it would be advisable to obtain copies of them and review them further Dr. Kotin also suggested checking the insurance companies annual reports which he says would indicate that they held themselves out as experts or offered advice on industrial hygiene and occupational diseases I reminded him that he had mentioned to Venn ni that he has materials indicating that the held themselves out as more knowledgeable insurance companies than their insureds on subjects such sell information as occupational hazards and offered to about such things I asked him if o her than the materials he had already mentioned to me he ad anything else along he had mentioned to these lines He said no that the me already were the ones he had in rateria rateria mind I asked Dr. Kotin if he knew any insur ce expr personnel who might for example doctors or industrial hygiene be able to tell us more about the extent of insurance company knowledge of the risks of mitos osrccs %e apparently does not insurance industry know that many people conte wi but he did give me the war st of the following people one of whom vis associated with s company: 1. Jean Stellman sp > used to be occupat onal health director of the Oil Chemical and Atomic Workers Union query whether this association would make her sone- what hostile toward JM 2 Louis and Lester Cralley 3 - Howard Ayer formerly chief of industri ~-l hygiene for the federal government with particular emphasis on asbestos Ayer is now at the University of Cincinnati School of Medicine 4. Ed Lew - formerly chief actuary for Metropolis tan Life Insurance Company Dr. Kotin thinks he now lives in Florida A copy of Who's Who biographical summary for Edward Lew is attached 5. - Mclver my notes do not indicate what McIver's area of expertise is other than that he trained under Kenneth Lynch and is at the University of South Carolina at Charleston His address is 172 Cannon Street Charleston South Carolina 29403 and his phone numbe is 803 577-6630 Dr. Kotin feels these people as well as most other professionals would be hesitant to talk to lawyers at least at first He feels it is better to have soranne soranne in their own field either Dr. Yotin or someone he can name contact them if we are interested in talking to them I asked Dr. Kotin if American doctors generally followed foreign medical literature He said no Amarvean doctors generally did not and do not follow foreign lite ture except perhaps Lancet Remebering something I read th 8.8 ; Commission Conference transcript in which someone fai disease would not appear until a year or more after Rp? to asbestos dust I asked him how long it had been known that asbestos related disease generally has a long late period He replied that it had only been in the last years or so that we have become sure of the long laten period of asbestos disease although it had previously suspected ; Finally I asked Dr. Kotin if he had had ah opportunity to annotate the Asbestos Litigation Report : bibliography given to him by Venning He said he had and it was obvious that he did nor wish to go over at with me at that time nor does he consider it particularly ! 4 on his list of priorities He repeated a comment he made earlier that he did not have a smise of the uz ua of this project meaning I believe the conce 1 project not just the specific project of atent th Asbestos Litigation Reporter bibliography bibliography 7 this: this lack of a sense of urgency which caused + somewhat general and unfocused in his : 2 4 4 tions He does not realize how port t tho than making a concerted effort t dig out oan oo ve, 4 , he responils whoh ae ners and owed 31 H Te pht . * . toca rn or ae po. : iy ptable he responds with general and still i clusory answers He might make more of an flort et of suitable influence whom he known well impressed up 01 -7- -7- the importance of the insurance litigation although no that he is retired even that may not be sufficient to divert his attention from other projects CC RSV SNG