Document 96gx5mj5rngOgyXK2EbEv006

FILE NAME: Mobil (MOB) DATE: 1980 Nov 26 DOC#: MOB006 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Deposition of Arthur Pabst with BC Notes f h x J u i^ J 9 c?& l7 I iA ^ -L ^ d K^i J ^ a ^ ) / ~ z x ^ j? / / / J j f 'h S T '^ > 2 x \ , I--? // Jx L *n ~ ^ O t^ /U sz z ? s r f --5*-- ^-^5 /7 s ^ r ^ t s iS f f - * 9 - ^ * = f y f f 7 % ^ ^ C /'7 ^ ? ^ f^ f~ /J> ^ S S a f f jf f j J? rz _ / / ? ? U ) / ^ ^ \ / / f 7 7 iZ y 's t t j '/ i f i '? Lso l^v' c:2 ^ - ? t_x2 . ^  fr M m3 < C i ft/\ i IN THE SUPERIOR COURT CF fTrtftr C T l TV v** wALjlci IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES -- oOo -- - 4 Torcerle MXCX LA FINTA, et ai., /> 5 Plaintiffs, )) 1 6 vs . > No. C 270345 ) 7 MOBIL OIL CORPORATION, et al., > ) S Defendants. > COPY 9 10 -- oOo-- :i WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 26, 1980 12 -- oOo--- 13 DEPOSITION OF 14 ARTHUR C . -PABST 15 -- oOo-- l COUNSEL: 17 For che Defendant; 18 MICHAEL L. SHANNON, Zac. 3_A35 Wilshire Boulevard, 30th Floor 19 Lbs Angeles, California 20 r For che Plaintiff: 21 HALLOPAN & DRAPKIN 22 By: ROBERT HALLORAN, fsa. ' 3455 Torrance Boulevard l 23 Torrance, California 24 25 -- oOo--- 26 27 28 Katherine L. Dicks, CSR --4682 S A C R A M 7EN6TUO UOU.COPIMOISS.lT$iUqiNlR*E*P*O R T E R S ? (UCKAMKHTa OuPDni **7*3^78 i h t h e SUPERIOR.COURT OF THE STATE CF CALIFORNIA IH AND FOR THE COUNT# OF LOS ANGELES -- oOo-- COIilNIC NICE. LA ?INTA, ec al. . ) ) Plaintiffs, ) ) V S . ) ) :iOBIL OIL CORPORATION, sc al., ) ) Defendants. ) No. C 270345 -- oOo-- l BE IT REMEMBERED chac pursuant co notice between counsel for the respective parties, and on '-iednesdav the 26th day of November, 1980, commencing at the hour of 1:30 o 'clock thereof, at the offices of Matheny fit Poidmore, 350 University Avenue, #101, Sacramento, California, before me, Katherine L. Dicks, a Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public in and for the County of Sacramento, State of California, there personallv appeared, ARTHUR C. FABST. called as a witness by the plaintiff, who, being by me first duly sworn, was thereupon examined and interrogated as hereinafter sec forth. -- oOo-- - Michael L. Shannon, Eso., 3435 Wilshire Boulevard, I 30th Floor, Los Angelas, California, appeared as counsel on behalf of the defendant. Robert Halloran, Esq., of the law firm of Halloran &* i I $ A C R A M EN TQ *** j uDiEuPoOmaS ,I T sI OuiNteR*E9P*O R T E R S BTaOCLBCaPWHOKnNYCO+. *S?a'3U3FOCTMBm ! 1 nrapkixi, 3455 Torrance Boulevard, Torrance, California, 1 appeared as counsel on dehalf of the plaintiff. 3 -- oOo-- 4 IT WAS STIMULATED between counsel for the respective 5 carries that this deposition shall be reported bv Katherine 6 L. Dicks, a Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public 7 in and for che County of Sacramento, State of California, 8 and a disinterested person, and thereafter transcribed 9 inco typewriting, to be read to or by the said witness, 10 who, after making such corrections as mav be necessarv, 11 will subscribe the same. 12 IT WAS FURTHER STIPULATED Chat if the witness fails to : 13 sign the deposition after having had a reasonable opportunity! 14 to do so, it shall be deemed to have the same force and 15 affect as though signed. 16 IT WAS FURTHER STIPULATED that all objections to 17 questions propounded to the said witness shall be reserved i 18 by each of the parties, save and except any obiections as 19 to the form of the questions propounded. 20 IT WAS FURTHER STIPULATED that if the witness should 21 be instructed not to answer any ouestions propounded bv 22 counsel, it shall be deemed that che Notary Public has 23 instructed Che witness to answer but chat the witness 24 refuses to do so. 25 IT WAS FURTHER STIPULATED that this deposition 3 hall 26 be taken pursuant to the provisions of all applicable 27 sections of the Code of Civil Procedure of the State of 2B California. _ __________ _ ________________________ ________________________ i SACRAMENTO. CALIFORNIA S A C R A M K N T O D E P O S I T I O N R E P O R T E R S * * * J *U H .Q iM 0 . S u it *: * 2 4 TCMCMmO N C * 7 * a Z 7 B I DEPOSITION OF "I ARTHUR C. PABST, called as a witness bv the Dlaintiff, I 5 being first duly s w a m by the Notary Public to tall the 4 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, testified 5 as fellows: 6 EXAMINATION 7 By ROBERT HALLORAN, Esq., counsel on behalf of the plaintiff: 8 0 Mr. Pabst, would you please state your full name for 9 the record? 10 A Arthur C. Pabst. 1 0 Uould you soell your last name? 12 A ?-a-b-s-c. 13 O What's your age, Mr. Pabst? 14 A Seventy-one. 15 n Where do you reside? 16 A 112 Coconut Terrace,Bradenton, Florida, 33507. 17 0 Have you ever had your deoosition takenbefore, 18 Mr. Pabst? 19 A No. j 20 O Have you had an opportunity to discuss the nature of 21 a deposition with tfr. Shannon? 22 A Yes. 23 0 All right. I'sn probably repeating what he's alreadv 24 told you about a deposition, but I'ns going to ask you 25 some questions concerning your employment with Mobil Oil, 26 and the court reporter will take down mv questions and 27 your answers to my questions. She will later transcribe 28 your testimony into a written form. It will be such as SA C R A M E N T O D EPO SIT IO N f i t a aulUBi>J5. VUITC a 3 a BACNAMCNTO. CAUraiVNJJl TCU3INQMC Aaq-3273 .. _ . , L......................... , . I the booklet I have here, and you'll have an opportunity to read over your testimony, and if you wish, change or correct it. If you do change vour testimony in some important aspect, then any lawyer that might tr/ this case could comment that vou changed sworn testimony. 6 A All right. 7 0 Xf I ask you a question and you don't 'understand it. 8 please Cell me so, and I'll trv and rephrase the Question (A 0 ft 9 hat you do understand it. If there's something you 10 can't remember, I don't want you to guess about vour :i answer. Tell us you don't remember. Will, you do that? 12 rA\ I will. 13 o Hr. Pabst, were you employed bv Mobil Oil? 14 rA\ Mes. 15 0 When did you first go to work for Mobil Oil? 16 A 1932. 17 : Q What was your position with them at that time? i 18 A I was an analytical chemist. 19 20 , 1 21 1 22 ' i 23 : t 24 | 25 Q And when did you retire from Mobil Oil? A In 1970. 0 5?as your employment constant with Mobil Oil from 1932 i to 1970? A Yes, it was. 0 .. Did yep, at some point in your career with Mobil Oil, have the responsibility as an industrial hysienist? 26 . A 27 ! 0 Yea.. When did you become an industrial hygienist for Mobil 28 Oil? 5ACNAMCNTD DEPOSITION PDRTRS *f2ctflUJw9aUCIMLOTIeM,SR, *SuUr1ToC*ii* rixcfNONC .'?*35S*ra 8 9 U 12 i 13 | 14 15 16 | 17 i 18 19 I 22 ; 25 26 : 27 28 ! A 1352. -Q Before becoming an industrial hygienist, what was your position at ."obli Oil? A I was a research chemist, 0 Have you had any formal training in industrial hygiene before becoming a hygienist in 1952? A Yes. O' Would you tall.me what trainine you've had? A 1 got a Wasters degree at the Harvard School of Public Health, 1951 and '52. 0 Olcay. Is there any other training besides the Masters degree you received at Harvard School of Public Health? A Well, I had a Masters in chemical engineering, too, as well as a straight chemical engineering degree and some extra courses in radiology' at New York University, 1S53. 0 And what was the length of your schooling in industrial hvgiene? How long did vou have to so to school i at the Harvard School of Public Health to receive your Masters degree? A One year. 0 Had you had any experience in industrial hygiene before 1952? A In a related field, yes. 0 What was that related field? A I was responsible for oroduct labeling. 0 In 1952, when you became an industrial hygienist at Mobil Oil, what was your geographic area of responsibility? ______________ _____________________________________________________ S A C R A M E9N.T aO suDiEu0P OinS.I TsIuOrNreR4E3P*O R T E R S 8>c4mcntil CAitrnf*tA TELXPXIMC 4*7-3271 I } 4 5 6 7 S 9 10 II 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 Were you in charge of ail of che Mobil operations or some of them or what? A That's hard to say. <1 Can you give us any idea? A 1 chink ac chat cine, it was directed prinarilv cowards the refineries. 0 Who was your immediate supervisor or che person to whom you reported? A A Dr. Saunders, who was the medical director of the "company.'' i? . Okay. Were there any ocher industrial hvgienists employed by Mobil in 1952 besides vourseif? A Wo, to the best of mv knowledge. 0 Were you sort of in charge of industrial hveisne for Mobil then?- Would that be accurate? A 1 guess you could infer that. Q 1 don't want to infer anything. T need to know what your relation was. Were you che advisory to che medical department or were you in charge of industrial hygiene, what?* MR. SHANNON: this one? Could i hear the question lust before (Thereupon the record was read.) MR. EALLORAN: 0 What we're trying to get at ia what you were doing in industrial hygiene for Mobil when v q u assumed Chat position in 1952. Was it industrial hygiene in the refining operation, primarily, that you were concerned with? . BAC A A M 3CaN*TjQ CSSPD n u itO iN Sm O W S. ru it c REPO *a* R T E R S 1 A .* i i %i 0 1 ` i Were you concerned with industrial hvgiene as far as i v | 3 ! a n y of the maritime transportation divisions vere 4 i - concerned? 5 A No. 6 0 Did you have occasion, in your training at the Harvard 7 School of Public Health, to utilize a textbook ir. industrial 3 j hygiene? 9j A 10 I 0 Yes. What textbook did you use? 11 A . There was one by Xosenaur, "Preventative Medicine." 12 Q Okay. Anythins; else? 13 A Another one I recall was -- I guess it was cslled, 14 "Industrial Hygiene Toxicology," by Frank Pattv, who was 15 at General Motors at that tine. There were certainly other 16 textbooks, but I don't recall-any more. 17 0 All right. In 1952 when you became an industrial l 18 hygienist for Mobil and were directing vour attention 19 towards the refining operations, did von have resuonsibilitv 20 for industrial hygiene in all of Mobil's refining ooerations 21 in the United States? 22 A ... I don't know, really, 23 Q Well, can you tell me what you believe your 24 responsibilities were in 1952 when you assumed the position 25 of industrial hygienist? 26 A Can I saysomething offtherecord? 27 0 Sura. We can go off the record. 28 (Discussion off the record.) L! SACRAMENTO DEPOSITION reporters tz* iuiuhncl autre a . RACHSMCNTQ. CM.IF09NIK 1 MR. HALLQRAH: 0 Go ahead and ceil us whac vou want to tell us, iir. Rabat. MR. SHANNON: If vou aver have a problem with a -4 question because it's worded in such a way that it makes 5 your answer difficult, let's try to work on that. THE WITNESS: What was the question again? MR. RALLORAN: 0 I'ns trying to find out what you 8 believe your responsibilities were when you assumed the 9 position of industrial hygienist in 1952. Whac was your 10 job? iliac were you supposed to do? Ware you concerned .1 with industrial hazards that might ha .prasent ir. the 12 refining operation? 13 A That is correct, yes. 14 0 And can you tell me whac you understood an Indus trial 15 hygienist's function.* were as far as they'relate to the 16 refining operation?. 17 A it was to examine what materials the workmen ware 18 handling, how they were using them, and what reduces thev 19 were making, and the toxicology end of the product. 20 0 How would you go about determining the materials 21 that wera being used by workmen in the, refineries which 22 might have some industrial, hygiene problems connected 23 with them? 24 A Usually by. common materials, that would be in the 25 passbooks, If it was about other types of products, you'd 26 write to the manufacturer and ask for the toxicologic 27 information. 28 Q What I'm trying to find out is you've got to determine i sa c h a m c n t o d e p o s it io n r e p o r t e r s 1 what materials are being used in the refining operation, number one, aren't you? A That1s right, -1 0 Hew did ron go about that in 1952? 5 ; A We had stock records of all the raw materials chat , : 6 went into the refinery, what formulas they were using, and j 8, . 9 10 >1 what end products were manufactured. 0 Were the duties you had as an industrial hygienist to determine potential hygiene hazards in. the refining operations? A Yes. 12 0 And one of the wavs Ton'd find out would be to j ' i 13 , determine what materials ware being used by the workmen, i 14 correct? 15 A That is correct. ! i 16 0 Okay, Wars yon aware in 1952 that any asbestos j ' ! 17 i products were being used in the refining ooeraclons at i I 18 Itobil? 19 A I don't know in 1952. Q Ware you aware in 1952 that exposure to asbestos dust could' pose a health problem? I'm noc~^aying"~"?id" 22 but "could." 23 A-11 Yes. 24 Q And had yon learned that in your training at Harvard? 25 A That is correct, yes. 26 i 27 i 28 ! | Q And was it your understanding that inhalation of asbestos dust could lead to the disease of 'aslyesgbsls, is that correct? S A D W A M fiN T O UOlPLhPlONCS.IT*IOUINTC4C1P^OP T G B S Ba C M ^ m CMTO. Ca U ^ O W u M. tcupkOnC A**?-327a 3- 4 5 6 7 3 9 10 U 12 ! I L3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 '0 Did you baLieva "here were any other hazards cochected with asbestos Is exist la 1952? A Mo. -- --I Q At sows point in time, while you were an industrial hygienist, for Mobil, did it caste to your attantiah that asbestos products were being used by the refinery workers ?, A Yea. . 0 When was the first time that came to your attention, if you can recall? A I..don't recall a date. . ' : I q Would it be sometime in the 1950's? A Yes. i S 0 Did you investigate what types of materials were being used by refinery workers at Mobil in the 1950's? A I don't know what ou mean by investigate. i I 0 . You found that sometime in the fifties, Mobil refinery ! workers were using asbestos products, correct? A Yes. 0 Gkay. And can you tell taa how that cacse to your attention? i A S o , I don't know how that would have come to my ( attention. 0 And when you .found out that, during the 1950's Chat asbestos products were being used by Mobil's refinery workers, what did you do to determine whether or not there was any health harard from the use of these products? A I don't recall that we did anything. I t was not SACRAMENTO DEPOSITION REPORTERS x * j kuiLfitM fi. s u i r c a-* GrAaCcA^niOMCNNt'ra*. aC 7 327 m .. ii' o it Qm m 1 -i I. ' I 6 ; 7 S i 9 10 , 11 12 13 14 15 L6 L? I 18 : 19 20 j 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 thought to he serious. Q -- 33cPfteS"'aIdf you first believe chat the use of i asbestos products at Mobil's refineries did not rose any serious health hazard for refinery workers? MR. SHA23KOH: I 'd going to.object to that auestion. i I 'a> going to object to that question as to form. MR. HALLOSAH: All right. Q You indicated that it cane to your attention sometime during the fifties, that refinery workers were using ! asbestos products in the refinery operations, and you cold ] us sx that tine chat you didn't do anything towards determining whether or not there was any potential health hazards, is that correct? A that is COTT&CtU - { <3 And that was because you believed that the use of ji those asbestos oroducts posed no risk to the workers, is \ I that right? j A That is right. 0 What was that based on? A It was based on textbooks at the Q What textbooks? i A Wall, you could take the Roaenaur1s or the Patty1a, that I mentioned before, -which they classified as a nuisance dust. Q Were there any other textbooks that you relied upon in determining that the asbestos dust generated cm refinery workers, was not hazardous ? A 1 don't recall. SACflAWCNTTai DS^StiTtgiN; sz&pmrTZtiSi i : t j auiLPiM iS. s u ir e 4 9 4 haOOa m Cn TC L-O N VD. C aC. a7 u>i r3o2e 7N 8M I 0 .Did you conduct air sample sestine to detersine the ^ levels of dust to.which refinery workers might be exposed 5 walla using asbestos products? 4 A :io. 5 0 'Ay not? 6 A ..;?a didn't think it was- necessary. 7 Certainly, one. of the ways to determine whether or 8 not it had a potential health hazard as a result of the 9 use for example, of asbestos inhalation oroducts in the 10 refinery operarions, would be to take an air samla test LI ___ vcrqJLc it r.oc? 12 ; A It would be today, yea. i I 13 *Q In 1952, did you belong to-any professional hygiene 14 organization? 15 A Yes, Iha American Industrial Hygiene Association. Q Anyone e ls e ? . A I think at that tine I belonged to the American Public 18 Health Association, American Chemical Society. 19 0 la 1952, when you became an industrial hygienist.for 20 ! Mobil Oil, ware you aware that there were, at that time, published, recommended threshold limit values for asbestos dust exposure? 23 24 i 3 ! 26 27 28 : I Q~TM^CId"you know whether any of your employees in the refining operations were being exposed to dust levels that exceeded the then, recommended threshold-limit value? A No. MR. SHANNON: Let me try and understziad this. Is the SACRAMENTO DeFQSlTtOiM REPORTEIS 9Zt J BUIL-PIKC. &LUTC ZA i question -- let tie hear the question and answer, please. -1 I don1C think I under3 tand it. 3 (Thereuoon the record was read.) 4 MX. SHASNC: Is it your testimony chat you don't 5 know whether or not they were being exposed -- 6 THE WIUTESS: I see what you mean, ves. MS., SHAMNC-iT: Maybe you can clarify that point. 8 Did you -- well, isn't it true chat you did not believe 9 any employees were be-in. exposed to concentrations, in to essence of the applicable TLV? It THE WITNESS: Would you repeat that, please. 12 MR. SHANNON: Well, I don't want to interrupt 13 Mr. Hallaran.' s examination unnecassarilv. L4 MX. .HALLORAN: Co ahead. 15 MX. SHANNON: Okay. Well, the ambiguity I see is l with the -- 17 THE WITNESS: You don't know what the "no" means. 18 HR. SHANNON: "Mo-, I don't know" or "Mo, they weren't 19 being`excessively exposed"? 20 MX. HALLORAJ: Let's cake a break while we have our 21 lunch. Than, we'll get back to this thing. 22 MR. SHANNON: Why d on'C we answer that question, if 23 we can, while we're thinking about it. 24 MR. HA1L0RA: I kind of lost the question. 25 MR.. SHANNON: Let's start over. W e 'll start the 26 whole thing over again. Off the record. 27 (Short break taken.) 28 MR, HALLGRAN; 0 Mr. Pabst, it's my wtdars tanding, sa c r a m en to w a d u e u. p o iN s8i. t i a o y n ir e 1 r e p o r t e r s mrtcuwCMAMMQt*w-Cr a*Ac m7-i f3d2i i7nRi a 15 i 1 from your testimony, that you believed, la 1952, that *1 chare.was no hazard in Che use of asbestos related -`iTniriiI,imi 1,1irW#*T*II**W yr"^ -- -"*"****"--HAHW** 3 products by refinerv workers at Mobil Oil, is shat correct? 4 5 0 You cold tie you wars familiar with the fact that chare 6 were reconraended. threshold limit values for asbestos dust 7 exposures in 1952? 8 A That is correct, 9 q One of the ways to find out whether or not the 10 refinery workers ware exposed to dust levels above the 11 threshold limit values would be to do air sample testing, 12 correct? 13 A Sight. 14 O It is 127 imderstending that there was no air sample 15 dust testing done by Mobil In 1952 of any of its refinery 16 workers to see whether or not the levels of asbestos dust, 17 that they might be exposed to, to .determine those levels, 18 is that right? 19 A It's hard for me to answer that, I didn.'t make any 20 tests, but 1 don't know whether anybody else ever did, 21 0 Okay. 22 A I doubt it. 23 O All right. Well, you didn't do any teat? 24 A No. 25 0 Did you recommend to Mobil that any air sample 26 tasting be done in 1952? 27 A Specifically for asbestos, no. 28 Q Did you at any tics, while you were at Mobil in Che 9AC*MCNTQ DEPOSITION CPORTEPS +** *a BUtuOIMB. Xiiire*5a, MSikMCNTO, DMjrQHN<A 'OX^HOMC *-7-3Z7fl 1 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 :i 12 15 i 18 19 30 i 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 I 16 fifties, recommend air samples be done to determine the .. levels of asbestos dust? A .No. 0 Did you assume that whatever levels of asbestos dust the workers might ba sxoosaa to, the use of asbestos products, would be less than the,threshold limit value? A Yes, Q What did you base that assumption on? A On a subjective judgment, Q Okay. By "subjective judgment," you mean what? A /.fell, I.can't be I don't...know how so answer that really. Examining a place where they would use asbestos and how they were using it, you could usually tell whether the dust was excessive or not by the concentration in the air. The five sill particles per cubic feet would be a terrific cloud of dust, 0 So what you're saving is, you would do it by looking at the dust? A That1s right. 0 All right. And in the fifties, did you go out and look at any of the dust concentrations when asbestos insulation was going on, for example? A 1 recall, one particular refinery, yes. Q Which refinery was that? A Augusta, Kansas. Q Was this during 1950 that you did that, went out and took a look at the asbestos work? MR. SHANNON: I think he said the 1950's. I don't ***i-3270 S A C R A M E N T O D E P O S I T I O N R E P O R T E R * f M w mjiiCMMC. s u m ? - 2 * A C W M M fN t, MU.II'OSHIA think he said in 1550. : MR. HALLORAH: 0 The fifties, not 1950. 3 . .A .Well, there again, it was not specifically for that 4 purpose. It was an a routine visit to the refinery for 5 . some other purpose. 6 j 'ER. KALLORAH: Mow, Let's take our break and eat our 7i 8 j sandwiches. (Short break taken.) 9i MR. HALLORAN: Q Ckay. Let's go back on the record. 10 :i 12 j Mr. Rabat, as an industrial hygienist, one of the things i your job would entail would be the determination of health 1 hazards toemployes inthe work place, correct? 13 ; A i Yes. 14 Q Okay. And some of the things you dealt with were 15 toxic fumes, chemicals and things, shat were present in 16 refineriesis that correct? 17 j A `es- 18 ' 0 All right. Mow, youwere aware in 1952. when you i 19 i assumed the job of industrial hygienist:, that asbestos 20 dust was a health hazard, correct, in a general sense? 21 A Yea, in a general sense. 22 Q Okay. Was it your understanding that if vou were to 23 inhale asbestos dust over long periods of time, above 24 certain concentrations, that you might contract a disease 25 known as asbestosis? 26 A ' Yes. 27 0 Did. it come to your attention, at any time during the 28 1950's, that asbestos dust was a carcinogen? SaCSamcNTD OSPOpiTlQN EPaRTETRSf 9 Z * <1 U lM ItN , W ire 4 3 * 1 > O Did it cotae to your attention, at arty tiros while 3 you were working for Mobil as an industrial hygienist, 4 that asbestos was a carcinogen? 5 A I.don 't rasas&ber. 6 0 As an industrial hygienist, one of the things you'd 7 have to do to be current with the field of industrial 8 hygiene, would be to read various industrial avziene 9 publications, correct? 10 A Tea. a 0 Okay, Could you tall tie what you ware doing, in 1952, 12 generally, to keep current in the field of industrial 13 hygienics ? 14 A Tie ware reading the industrial hygiene digest. 15 Q Okay... 16 A I also read the Journal of the American. Medical 17 Association. Also there was the Journal of Industrial ia Medical Association. Thera was the -~ 19 US.. SHANNON: Excuse me. 20 THE WITNESS : There was the New England Journal of 21 Medicine. 22 MR. SHANNON: If you hoLd your hand in front of your 23 face and your mouth, you're obscuring 7 0 ur lips, and it 24 might make it difficult for our reporter. 25 THE WITNESS: Okay. 26 2QI. HALLDRAN:. Q We've got the New England Journal 27 of Medicine. Anything else? 28 A That's all I recall.* ***4 nuu-pmo. autTCa S A C R A M E N T O D E P O S IT IO N R E P O R T E R S Ea C R A M C M T O , BALli*aRHl ra.ci*w aM C * * 7 - 3 2 7 0 I 3 4I 5; 6 7 S 9 10 ! 11 12 ; ! 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 'O ! Q Okay. These were the cbings that you were reading on sas kind of a regular basis to keep current in the field- of industrial hygiene, is that correct? A That is correct. 0 Sow, as I correct in sv understanding chat you made a subjective judgment that the amount ox asbestos dust that refinery workers ware exposed to at Mobil did not renresant a potential health hazard sometime in the 19501s? A. Would you repeat that, please? 0 Well, you cold me that you made a subjective judgment ! i that chare was no potential health hazard sox esxolovees ! I at Mobil in the refining operation because of the use of i asbestos products,"is that correct? A Yes, O Okay. And that was a -- you used the tern "subjective I judgisent," correct?' A Yes. 0 Okay. You made chat judsxaats.it sometime in the 1950's? A Yes. Q And as understand. this was based on observations you made at the refinery in Augusta? A Augusta, Kansas. q Augusta, Kansas, okay. Did you go out specifically with the intent of determining the levels of asbestos during some particular operation? A Ko, no. Q Did you actually sit down and analyze whether ox not chare ware any potential health hazards because of the use SA C R A M EN T O D E PO SIT IO N R E P O R T E R S 9X - SUIUD1NS. SUITE 1 HACXAH KM Ta CAtK O H N Ii. racmoac **'7-3270 20 I of asbestos products during the 1930's at the Mobil refinery? 3 A ' Ho'. | 4 0 Did yon ever even consider chat problem in the 1950's? 5 A 3o. 6 Q You were dealing with, primarily with toxic fumes , 7 were you not? S A Yes, and liquids -- liquids. 9 Q So as far as you..wera concerned, as an industrial LO hygienist for Mobil, you didn't really sit down and look il at any potential health hazards chat nay have been oresent 12 during the 1950's because of the use of asbestos Droducts, j ? 13 is that correct? 14 MR. SKAOTJOti: I'm going to object. It misstates 15 the testimony, at least insofar as it appears to discount 16 or ignore the testimony about the conclusion that the I 17 levels were below the TLV. 18 'SR. KALLORAM: Q Well, let's start with that. You 19 made one observation at a refinery in Augusta, Kansas, 20 sometime in the 1950's that led you to think that the 21 asbestos dust levels would be below the recommended 22 threshold limit values, is that right? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Did you make any more than one observation? 25 A So. 26 Q And that was something -- that was an observation 27 made while you were doing some other thing, correct? 28 A That's right. i SA C n A M C N T O O P PO SIT IO N R E P O R T E R S t i f i J U IL O IN K , s u i t e - .3c* OACM AM BfTP. R A u r e e x M rcu^H O H C * 4 7 ' 23i7 B 1 1 i 5 6 7 S 9 10 i t 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 ^ Q So based solely on chat one observation, you -determined that there was no potential health hazard with"the use of asbestos oroduecs for.refinery oroducts of Mobil Oil in the 1950's? A" Yes. 0 Old it come to your attention that at any time after the 1950's, chat there was a potential health hazard for the use of asbestos by the refinery workers at Hobil? MR, SHANNON: May I have that question read back? Excuse me. (Thereupon the record was read.) MR. SHANNON: While he was working or at any time? MR. HALLORAN: Q Any time. A Any time during she.sixties? Q Any time, did it come to your attention? A Oh, no. Q. Okay When was the first time that you thought that S A C A A M G2NTwQ KupiEuPoiOMaS.i fol puiNtcf tE P D a* O T ^ H S v c L t f H O N c <` . * ,7 - 3 2 :<7 a 4 5 75 j! 8 i 9 1 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 ? > A I don' z know the exact years. It was towards the end of ray retirement. Do yon want me to estimate? Q Just your estimation, as long as you have an estimation. It's not just a guess, is it? A 1 would judge the last five years of my employment in 1965 on. 0 Okay. Were you acquainted with Mr. Daniels at any time during the fifties? A Oh, yes. 0 Were you aware chat ha was working as an industrial hygienist for Mobil, also? A Yes. ..And in the fifties, did Mr. Daniels report to you Q A No. 0 Let's see. In 1952 when you became an industrial hygi enist, 7 0 U reported to Mr. Saunders, correct? A Dr. Saunders. 0 Okay. And at that tirae, we never did delineate whether you had any geographic area of responsibility. Let me ask you this: Did you at any time, during the fifties, have any geographical area of responsibility, as an industrial hygienist with Mobil -- for example, the west coast, the east coast? " A. It was never defined. Q Okay. When you ware instructed in industrial hygiene at the Harvard School of Public Health, were you taught any particular methods you should utilize for the investigation of industrial health hazards? SA C fA M N T D D EPO SITIO N R E P O R T E R S 3* W SuiTC 3 a RACM a^gN TP, D (M ,iroN U TXJCfHCuuc *47-3278 23 i 1 A Yea. 0 Will you cell me whac methods you were to use? 3 They caught: you methodology for the investigation of i industrial health hazards? 5 A For what type of material? 6 q For asbestos. 7 A Let's go dust. 8 0 Did they teach you for dust? 9 A Certainly, dust. 10 0 Okay. And whac method were you to use, for instance, 1! in the area of dust, as far as they related to industrial 12 hygiene ? 13 A _ A midget impinger, m-i-d-g-e-c i-m-p-i-n-g-e-r. 14 q That w a s a device for air sampling? 15 A That is correct. 16 0 Were you taught that any dust, if inhaled in sufficient 17 quantities, would represent a potential health hazard? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And were you taught chat there was an area of diseases 20 known as pneumoconiosis? Don't ask me to spell it. 21 A Yes. 22 O And part of your course in industrial health dealt 23 with the whole field of dust related diseases, is that 24 correct? 25 A Correct. 26 Q And then in one of these areas, you would have * 27 asbestos dust, correct? 28 A Yes. S A C R A M EN T 2 4 O D E PO SIT IO N R E P O atlllOlfoB. BUIVC 2 R T E R S AEttAMKMTQ, CAkWnNMA _ TCLCWQMC 1 0 Up until your retirement, did you aver conduct I "I any" investigation at Mobil of asbestos dust to datarmina j 3 whether or not the levels, chat any Hob13. employee aitht ] A be expos ad to, would exceed the then recommended ; 5 threshold limit values ? > 6 A Ho, I | 7 MR. SEAiiSOK: You seat, of course, other chan the ! 8 subjective judgment?. 9 MR. KALLOKANj Yes, other than the subjective judgment. 10 Q Did you report to Mobil this observation you made at II the Augusta, Kansas refinery about the dust levels present 12 when work was going on with asbestos products? I 13 A My boss was with me, i 14 0 Who was your boss? | 15 A Dr, Saunders. 16 Q Did you.have a conversation with him about the i i 17 apparent dust levels? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Tell me what that conversation entailed? '-That did you i 20 say, and what did he say? | 21 A X don't remember chat. 22 Q Okay. And you decided that by looking at it, that i 23 the dust levels probably didn't exceed the threshold limit 24 value, is that right? 25 A That would have been a joint decision. ?iTe were both 26 chare together. It was a joint decision of Dr. Saunders 27 and myself, ' 28 Q Do you know if that decision was ever nut in writing? > S a c r a m 9e n t Xt a o BduietpDoHas.i t fiiouintt;r*ep*o r t e r s 3 55*78 1 i i 5 i 6 ; >! 8 ! 9 ! LO '. 1 12 ' 13 i 14 ' I 15 ! 16 17 i 18 19 iI :o 21 22 23 24 25 26 i 27 l 28 l i A lo, 0 Was any memoranda made of this observation at cha Augusta. refinery? A I dan'' - know. 0 what operations were you aware of at the Mobil refinery, in the fifties, where -- strike that. Let me start over. Tail me, in "he fifties, were you aware that asbestos products wars bains? usees in che carinarlas? A Tas. o ?*1T aa what pro duets were bain used and for what purpose? A Insulation, for pipes and stills, kettles. 0 Did the Augusta refinery have an insulation cutting shop? A Yes. 0 Did you make your observation of the dust levels at the cutting shop? A Yes. Q And was chat cutting shop equipped with any type of dust suppression equipment? A 1 don't recall at the time. 0 Methods were available in 1952 to protect workers against.asbestos dust exposure, were they not? MR. SHANNON: Do you mean a method specifically for asbestos dust? MR. KALLQRAN: Specifically for asbestos dust or for that matter, any dust. It doesn't matter. MR. SHANNON: Those are two questions. SA CR A M EN TO P P q S rttQ N C G P P ftT R S 926 J SUIkJ3tMa. fiuire -* achmmintq,CAkiroKmM ra.CfMQHC <**7-3378 1 5 5 I 6 8 9 10 :i 12 1} 14 15 16 17 IB 1? 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 16 MB.. KALLORAN: 0 Let's scare over. Generally, were methods available to protect workers against she ; inhalation of excessive amounts of dust? A .Yes. 0 these consisted of masks? 1 k Masks or ventilation. ; i 0. How about any type of respiratory equipment? ' MR. SHANNON: Ocher chan masks? I MR. HALLORAN: Other than masks. THE WITNESS: I don't understand Che question. MR. HALLORAN: 0 Didn't they have available certain devices for workers, that they'd wear when they went into I tanks where there aisdht be fumes? i MR. SHANNON: Well, your question was about dust. MR, HALLORAN: But I'll get there in a minute. . THE WITNESS: 'An air-supplied respirator. MR, HALLORAN: Q Those were available, also? A Yes. C They could be used to protect the workmen against the inhalation of excessive amounts of dust, right? ! i A Yes. 0 Do you know if, during the fifties, any of the devices ! w e 've talked about were utilized in any of the refineries j under your general area of responsibility? A I don't know. 0 Did you ever notice any of the workmen in the asbestos -- in the cutting shops wearing masks? A No. j _ ___ 1 5 A C R A M E N T Q D C PD JirTO N H E P Q R T E H 3 as 4 PUIUIINO. Cuitc B^WAMCxra. TKi^mONK 4-e7337a 1i 3 A 5i i 6 I 7 ! 8 j 9 10 ! 11 12 . l 13 14 13 16 17 i 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 q Ware the saws equipped with, exhaust ventilation equipment? A I dot,' t know. q Ac anv cine while you were employed at Mobil as an Induscrial hygienist, did it come to your attention that any worker had sustained.any injury relating to the inhalation of asbestos dust? A . No, I don't recall any. 0 In 1952, were you aware that Mobil employed seamen to do insulation on board ship? A Mo. 0 You didn't have anything to do with the maritime division at all? A No. Q Do you know if there was any industrial hygienist employed by Mobil during the 1950's that had -- chat was responsible for industrial hygiene on board ship? A Mo. C So, you're not aware,or no, there wasn'tany? A I'm pot aware. O Okay, Did the subjectivejudgment thatyou utilized in determining that there was no potential dust hazard at the Augusta, Kansas refinery, fit within the methodology you were taught at Harvard School of Public Health for the investigation of health hazards related to dust exposure* A . I don't understand that cues cion. 0 Let me ask it this way. Did they teach you at the Harvard School of Public Health that the way you determine ____________________________________________ j SA C R A M E N T O D EPO SITIO N R E P O R T E R S va c j su iu o m s, su itc * a sacham km to, eA urow M u, ! i whether or not there w&e a health hazard to an i - .employee batauee of insulation of asbestos, was to go 3 4 ; 5 6 7 3 9 10 I 11 12 out and ..look at It and decide based on what von saw in cite air? A I couldn't answer that. 0 We ran' c .you taught chat air sample casting should be done to determine whether or not the levels of dust were above the then believed threshold limit values? A We were -- we were taughfc_that. A Yes ? ' A Yes. 0 . Were you .taught that air sample testing should be 13 conducted ovar a period of eirae, rather than conducted 14 on the single air sampling in determining the levels of 15 asbestos dust, for example? 16 MR. SKAilHON: Well, we need a foundation that he 17 was taught anything about air sampling with respect to 18 asbestos dust. 19 MR. HALLORAH; Q You were taught about the midget: 20 impinger, which was a device used for air sampling? 21 A Yes 22 0 You were taught about the methodology relating to 23 air samples as it related to dusts, were you not? 24 A Yes. 25 26 1 27 0 Were you taught that in order to have a valid air sample, chat it ought to be done over a period of time, rather than be done at any single sampling to determine 28 whether or not there might be a hazard level of dust? | i S A C S A M *E2MTj15aOuiPuPeiOMSd.ITsIOuiNtcH*E2R*Q flT E .R S WTACCLWEANMiCpMNTCCC. <Cm7-.H3'O2H7H8m MR. SHANNON: I object CQ the f o m of the question. As I understand, the inpinger test by the very nature requires a period of tine. It takes a period of tine. * : 5 ; It. doesn't rake sense. HR. KALhOBAN: 0 I.ec's ask it this wav. When you 6 ! utilized the midget impingor, as you understood it In 7 | 1952, did that involve taking a satrols of .air over a 8, t 9 | to ! period of tins? A Yes. o Okay. ~or what period of tine did you take and would U you taka an air sanole? 12 1 MR. SHANNON: Are you talking about the U n i t of the 13 machine ox -- 14 MR. HALLORAN: Whatever the exactice was in 1952. 15 16 1 ! 17 18 * MR. SHANNON: If there was a practice, even. MR. HALLOSAN: Was there a practice in 1952 relating to air sample testing as it concerned dust as far as time vhen you would take the sample?' 19 A I don't know that. They would have been. ! 20 Q Were you taught that it was good industrial hygiene 21 practice to go look at the dust levels and make a decision 22 whether there was a health hazard? i 23 A I don't know. i 24 0 Was that a good practice? I ! 25 A In retrospect, maybe, no. 26 q No, at the cine, was it a good practice? 27 A Yes. 28 I 0 Were you taught that was good oraccice at the Harvard i BACRAMCNtO,CAUfOPNM S A C ft A M S N T D D P C 5 IT iQ N A C P O R T C P S V S * j UluOiNq:, 5 u it c * 4 1: i 3 A 5 6 7 8 9 10 :i 12 13 14 15 5 i 17 18 : 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 School or Public health? A I .don'c rsssembsr, Q 31 a you ever call Mobil sc any cine during vour employment until your retirement, that their -workers might.be exposed to potential health hazards because of asbestos dust inhalation? a :io. 0 Did you have a conversation with ray partner, Mr. Drapkin, on the telephone? A Yes. - C Did you tall Mr. Drapkin chat youhad warned Mobil j about asbestos dust hazards ? i A I don't recall exactlv what was said. i ! I O Do you recall saying anything about warning Mobil that there were .potential asbestos dust hazards in, its refining operations? A Ho. | 0 You didn't say chat or you don't rcamber savins chat? A 1 don't remember. j I Q Ac any cine while you worked as an industrial hygienist for Mobil, were there, any work practices in effect to reduce asbestos dusc in the refining operations? i A 1 don't know. Q Do you have any recollection of reading any literature on che items that you read to keep current on asbestos -- or strike that. Do you have any recollection of reading [ any articles, of those publications you gave us earlier j relating to asbestos dust as a carcinogen? L________ __________ _ _____ ________ ____________________________ j S a c r a m e n t o o c p d s it ip m p g p o w t c r s CACItAMCKra.CAUrqKNM at* w M ica iN B . a u it c a a n rerH O N t m ?>3 S 7 R | 1 A So. 2 "0 Wasn't; it industrial hygiene that you were caught 3 in 1952 that if you were not aware of Che amount of dust 4 to which an employee night be exposed, that the safesc 5 thing was to institute protective measures? 6 MR. SHANNON: Object to the form of that question as 7 internally inconsistent. 8 MR. HALLORAN: 0 Let tie repeat the question. 9 Mr. Pabst, were you taught at the Harvard School of Public !0 Health, chat if you couldn't determine the levels, for II example, of asbestos dust that a worker night be exposed 12 co during che course of his employment, chat the industrial 13 hygiene practice was to inseutece proceccive measures 14 against dust inhalation? 15 MR. SHANNON: Objection. The problem I have is 16 whether or not y o u 'know the precise level is irrelevant, 17 if you know that it's below the applicable TLV. 18 MR. HALLORAN: Q Do you understand che ones cion? 19 A No, I don't . 20 Q Mr. Raps c , were you caughc tfaac if you couldn't cell 21 what the dust levels would be as related to asbestos dust;, 22 that you ought to take protective measures ? 23 A Not specifically, no. 24 Q Did you understand tfaac as a good Indus trial hygiene 25 practice in 1952? 26 \ A Yes. \ -- * ---- 27 Q Do you understand that good industrial hygiene 2B practice would be to take preventative measures co avoid i i sachamcntq pe^tastTiON scpartcrs V* JdUJUSlMB.SUITE *2 SrACCLfCtriMNCOMNTCtL eALirORMIA 1 1 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 i 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 the exposure of employees to asbestos dust, if you i weren't able to determine the amount of dust that you would be exposed? MR. SHANNON: Objection. There has to be some foundation that the risk exists -- MR. KALLORAN: Q Let tea ask you this. If you were to go out and do testing for asbestos dust levels, and by your knowledge of the workmen's job, you knew that any one particular.test wouldn't tell you what the level might be two weeks from that day or a mouth from that day, | that the safest thing to do was to oratect it? ; . A Net. MR. SHANNON: The question is incomplete. It requires some conclusion chat there is a risk of exposure to asbestos dust. It does not constitute a risk. It's only exposure to levels.. MR. HALLORAN: Q la chat your understanding, * Mr. Pabst, that it's only exposure to excessive levels that constitutes a risk as far a3 asbestos dust is ; i concerned? MR. SHANNON; Are you asking if that's what his view is now? THE WITNESS: What is this now, again? MR. HALLORAN: 0 Is it your view now, Mr. Pabst, that exposure to excessive levels of asbestos dust -- strike that. Is it your understanding now that in order for there to be a health risk by virtue of the exposure to asbestos dust, tha: the worker must be exposed to excessive TKue^nowc S a c r a m *e2n6 t o J o erq s UMIUOIW it *. io tftf n lT C 4c9R4 O H re n s 4 CM*MCNTB. CAW fOBNIA 1 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 8 19 20 i 1 21 ii 22 i 23 24 j J 27 j I 23 1 levels of dust? -A - will vou define what you mean by "excessive levels"? Q Okay. let ae ask you this: Nas it your uaders tandins in 1952 that the only workers at risk, as far as asbestos exposure, ware those who were exposed to excessive levels of dust, those bains? above the then accepted threshold limit values ? A "aat was the first part of. that question? 0 "as it your understanding in 1952 chat the only workers at risk, as far as asbestos dust was concerned, ware those workers who were exposed, to excessive levels of cust? 3y chat, I tiean duac levels above the threshold limit value. A Ac risk for asbestosis, yes. O would it be fair to say the only way to determine from the industrial hygiene standards point of view, whether or not a worker was at risk as far as asbestos dust was concerned, would be to do air sample testing over a period of time to find out what the levels of. dust were? MR. SHANNON: 1 obj ect. There are many ways or at least two ways to determine levels of asbestos dust. id. HALLORAN: 0 Can you answer the question? A I don't know what it was. O Okay. How would you go about in determining the levels of asbestos dust in 1952 to determine whether or not it exceeded the then recommended threshold limit value as an industrial hygienist? MR. SHANNON: Do you want him to list the ways? MR. HALLORAN: 0 List the ways hew you would go about j ____ __________ _ _______________ - ______ l SARRAM CN TO D ePD SIT lD N R E P O R T E R S 34 * BinhOfNCi. SUITE 4 3 SACHamIMTO. CaL<FDwia TtUIAHOMi 47-3770 it. You'd use che midget impinger to do an air sample cast. 0 was there any other valid method in which an industrial hygienist would determine whether or not the asbestos dust levels exceeded the threshold limit value? A 'Jell, there's a high volume air sample, but I don't know what date that came to be, whether it was in February of '52 or not. 0 Anything else? A Not that 1 know of. MR. SHANNON: What about subjective methods? If you go out there and look, and it's not dusty, i t 's not excessive TX.V? THE WITNESS: There's no method to compare onaque samples of che air. ! MR. HAT.T.OKAN: O Would it be fair to say that in I the 1950's, you couldn't go out and look at the asbestos cutting shop and determine how many particles per cubic foot there are in the breeding zone by looking? A Yes, I guess that's true. 0 That1s a true statemenc ? MR. SHANNON: It's equally true if it was not dusty. THE WITNESS: That's true. MR. SHANNON: isn1 1 that true ? That it was not in excess of the TLV, THE WITNESS: I don't understand that really. MR. SHANNON: If the air is not dusty, it's not in bacaam cn to a e p a s m a * r e p o r t e r s *M WSUtLSIHC.5MITC*3* BACBfcM CM rn. C A U fO a m * TtE^DM C * 4 7 * 3 8 7 0 - s 1 excess of the TLV. That's a matter of logic, isn't it? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes, if it's not heavily dusty. 3 MR. SHANNON: And you can tall? 4 TEE WITNESS: This sir is certainly not in excess of 3 Che H.V. 6 MR. SHANNON: We don't need an ijtpinger to do that. 7 do we? 8 THE WITNESS: Of course not. 9 MR. HALROBAN: 0 So how do you determine when to use 10 the impinger, Mr. Pabsc? U A ".rhea "q u vani to determine if you have a problem. I 12 0* la order to detevrmine whether to do air sam*ple i 13 teating, would good industrial hygiene practice in 1952 U ,be to go out and look at the work location, and if you 13 can't see dust in the air, then you don't bother with it? 16 A Yes, that was par for the course then. 17 Q So you wouldn't bother with air sample testing in the > IB asbestos cutting shop unless you could see the dust? 19 A Yes. 20 "if""" Okay. And when, you looked at the Augusta refinery, 21 you didn't sea any dust in the area, in the asbestos 22 cutting shop, correct? 23 A Yes, we saw dust. 24 O And you. decided at that time, based on your subjective 25- observations, that it didn't exceed the threshold limit 26t value? 271 A That it wasn't a problem, yes. 2T Q Could you tell how many particles per cubic foot of SA C R A M EN T O D EPO SIT IO N R E P O R T E R S j u ico n e o . s u it e a a A tSA H C n T B , CALI^DeN IA fCuwoKi **7-35&*7R 1 2 ! 3 | 4 : I 5 6 7 8 I 9! io : u ! 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 ! L9 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 25 air you had in she breeding sene? So. Q 'Could you tell how many particles ?er cubic soot of air you might have to the breeding sons the next day, when the enrnlayees might be doing something else with asbestos, titan when you ware watching? A So. Q So would it ba fair to say that you didn't know what the levels were sc any other time other than that moment when you made your subjective observation, correct? A "as. Q tad it's my understanding jyou weren't there looking specifically for asbestos dust, correct? A . Yes. Q Tell xae what you were doing In the asbestos cutting shop on this occasion you made your subjactive observation? A We ware taking a tour or the refinery. 0 Tell me what was going on at the time you made your ! observation of the cutting room in the Augusta, Kansas refinery? A I don't know what was going on. That was twenty-five years ago. 0 You'd imagine they were sawing asbestos material at the time, correct? MR. SHANNON: If you can't remember the specific operation., say you can't remember. Were the operations going on, or was it at noon and things were 3hut down? THE WITNESS: I don't remember that. I only remember S A C R A M ENT Ui j O D EPO SITIO N R E P O auiLpiH.suite 2 R T E R S BTAnC,RWAMHCONNTtD.+ADafm-r3Q3fCf7MCM 1 that chare was one nan in chara, and I don't know what - - -he was coins at the tine. ? MR. S3A31iO?I: as he doing something? 4 THE WITNESS: X d o n 't know. 5 :m. HALLORAil: Q -art of industrial hvgiana practice, 6 Mr, Pafaae, would be also to survey she particular work place *7 to detarnine the type of work the employees ware engaged in, right? 9 A Yes. iO Q For example, if you want t.o know what work the employees ! 1 might he doing with asbestos products, you'd have to go out and look or conduct soma kind of survey to find out, correct? A .. Ess. L4 Q - Okay. Wars any surveys conducted from 1952 until your 15 retirement of the work-place at Mobil to determine the 16 kinds and types of work the employees were doing? 17 A . Generally? * IS n Yes, generally. ! 19 A Yes. 20 ; < 21 22 23 Q Were any of these done specifically from an industrial hygiene standpoint? ' A Yes. 0 And were any of these done as it related to dust 24 25 : exposure? MR. SHAHiJONs Do you mean limited .to dust exposure 26 or do they include -- 27 I ! i.. EALlORANs Q Did they include dust exposure? ; 28 | A I can't think of anything specific. j SACRAMENTO DEPOSITION REPORTERS f aQUK.OINE,suiTC*4 CMAMtNTa tAUFQRNM *-17-3278 23 1 0 Was chare any industrial hygiene; investigation. 05 asbestos dust, exposure at Hobil while yon were a J hygienist chars? -1 A No, not that I recall. 5 0 One of the things you worked with as an industrial 6 hygienist would be the various safety orders for the 7 particular states in which you had refining operations, 8 correct? 9 M R . 'SHANNON: Could I hear that question again, please? 10 (Thereupon the record was read.) 11 MR. HALLORAM: 0 Or am I Incorrect? 12 MR. SHANNON: Do you know what safety orders are? 33 THE WITNESS: Vaguely. 14 MR. HALLORAN: Q Let me ask you -- 15 A They're different states. 16 q Did you have anyindustrial hygiene responsibilities 17 in the state of California at any tine while you were 18 employed, at Mob.il from the tine you became a hygienist 19 in 1952? 20 A No, Mr. Daniels is the one that was following that up. 21 0 Okay. So you.wouldn't be familiar with, the division 22 of industrial safety, general industrial safety orders 23 for California? 24 A No. 25 0 Okay, 26 MR. HALLORAN: Okay. I don't have any other questions. 27 MR. SHANNON: Let me take a brief recess. I'm going 28 to visit with Mr. Pabsc for a minute or two. SA C fR A H E N T D D E P O SIT IO N E P 'O R T E 9zcj mh,Q>mC>-suiTt***' CUCPHOMC O A egA M C N Ta. c * u r p o i A I 3 4 5 6 7 6 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 (Shove break taken.) MR. SHANNON: I'm going Co ask a few questions here. EZMOEATIOH 2 y MI CKAEL L. SHANNON, Esc., counsel on behalf of the defendant: o Mr. Halloran asked you a couple of questions about how you were taught to look into or investigate potential industrial hygiene problems when you were going to school at Harvard School of Public Health. Do you remember those questions and answers? A Yes. 0 Now, I think your testimony was to the effect that the thing you were taught as the best way to go about that, was to use mechanical measuring devices, is that correct? A (No resuons e .) 0 Is that what you told Mr. Halloran before? A I believe so. q Sut isn't there also -- weren't you also taught that the first thing industrial hygienists ought to do would be to visit the site and make what is called an "eyeball survey"? A Sure. Q What is an "eyeball s.urvey"? A Just a tour of the area with an idea of looking at what problems might be present. 0 Isn't that because at least in some kinds of things, Che dust can be determined based on an eyeball survey whether or not further investigation is conducted? S A C R A M EN T 99 -O t SUITE2* D E F O S m c i N E F O T E S BACftAMCMTa cauVoknm -*.**r-3|37a 0 I MR. HALLOR A N : Object as leading. You can. 2 answer the question. } HR. SHANNON: Please answer. 4 THE WITNESS: '`That was that? What did you do? 5 ME. HALLORAN: I just objected to the question. 6 That's all right. If you understand the Question that 7 2ir. Shannon stated as being accurate, you can answer the a question. The fact that I object, just ignore chat. 9 THE WITNESS: Would you repeat that, olease? to HR.. SHANNON: I'm sura that was a little disjointed. 11 We. better have it read back, again. 12 (Thereupon toe record was read.) ! 13 HR. SHANNON: 'what was the last question and answer 14 before the objection. 15 (Thereupon the record was read.) I 16 MR. SHANNON: 'Q When you were at Harvard in Professor 17 Draper's program, they taught you the first thing chat L8 hygienists should always do, and chat is to perform an L9 eyeball survey, isn't that correct? | 20 A Yes. 21 Q Isn't chat because an eyeball survey will enable you 22 to decide whether further investigation is appropriate? 23 A Yes. 24 0 Now, there was another point in the examination where -- 25 Hr. Halloran actually asked a couple of times about whether 26 there was ever a geographical limitation on the area of 27 your responsibility, and both times you testified that 28 you never defined it or you really weren't aware what it SA C R A M EN T O D EPO SIT IO N REPQ N TCW S St j UlLDINa. SUIT?, a *4 BaCMtHCMra ca*.i*cinia 1 1 J A 5 I 6 8i i I 9 IO i U 12 13 14 15 16 17 j 18 i 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 i L as, is chat correct? A That is correct, yes. 0 '.'low, you worked f o r Mobil Oil Corporacin ac chac time, isn't that correct, beginning in 1952? A I don't recall whether it was Mobil then or not. 0 _ Other affiliates of the company chat you worked for were. General Petroleum and Magnolia, isn't that correct? A They were affiliates of the company, 0 And they were generally involved in regions of their own? A They were ora or lass. 0 General Petroleum was on the west coast? A That is correct. 0 And Magnolia w a s .in the Gulf of A In Texas. 0 And you didn't have any responsibility for industrial hygiene in those affiliates, did you? A Mo direct responsibility. Q So to that extent, there wag a limitation on the geographical area cf .responsibility?. A Yes. Q . And both Magnolia and General Petroleum, during the fifties, had their own industrial hygiene stats, isn't that correct ? A Yes. 0 Did you ever tell -- well, in the entire time you worked for Mobil and the time since you've been retired, have you ever believed that any employee of Mobil's was sacramento deposition reporters t z i * u 4i,pi* tt. s u i t * - a * acramkntb.CAtirosNu 1 5 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 il 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 2 ; subject to an unprotected risk of harm from breathing asbas tos fibers ? MS.. HALLORAN: I'm going to object as being ambiguous as to the use of the word "unprotected. " THE WITNESS: I don't know how to answer that. Since I've been retired or -- MR. SHANNON: 0 At any time in your life. A (Mo response.) 0_ It's true that you never thought there was an asbestos disease problem at Mobil, did you? A Again, you mean now or when I worked there? Q When you worked there. A No, I didn't. Q Did you ever tell Mr. Drapkin anything different than that? MR. HALLQRAN: I'll object to Chat as beina ambiguous and overbroad. He's already testified he couldn't remember. THE WITNESS: MR. SHANNON; I d on11 remember. I 0 Did you ever tell Mr. Drapkin anything different than what you've already said today? MR. HALLORAN: Again, I'll object as being overbroad. He can't remember. THE WITNESS: No, I don't remember. I don't remember what the discussion was. MR. SHANNON: Q Do you recall that you could have cold him anything differently chan you've cold us today? A No. MR. HALLORAN: Objection. Calling for speculation.* SA C R A M EN T O D EPO SIT IO N P K P O P T C P S 82A*6 ffMUCU.NOTtCiLeB.OASUUIIFYQCA4^2fa **T-327a i 1 MR. SHANNON: 0 What do you remember that you cold > Mr. Drapkin during your conversation or conversations? 3 A 1 don1t remember a singla thing chat 1 soaks to b-im 4 about, extent the idea of coming out here and getting a s deposition taken at my son's house. 6 Q How many cime3 did.he talk to you? 7 A I think it was twice. 8 MR. SHANNON: I don't have any further questions. 9 EXAMINATION 10 3y ROBERT HALLORAN, Esc., counsel on behalf of the plaintiff: 11 0 Mr. ?ab3t, did you have some conversation with 12 Mr. Shannon about Che subject matter of this deposition? 13 A Yes. 14 0 Did Mr, Shannon have a conversation with you out in the 15 hallway before the deposition when we were present? 16 A Yes. 17 0 What did Mr. Shannon tell you about testifying today? 18 A You mean prior to this meeting? 19 0 Yes, prior to right now. 20 A Well, he sort of outlined what the case was about and I 21 soma of the questions I might be asked about. 22 Q Did you talk about this subjective judgment, chat 23 there wasn't any asbestos dust hazard? 24 A I don't recall specifically. 25 Q Did you discuss with him, in the hallway out here, 26 Che eyeball survey being the first thing that Professor 27 Draper said a hygienist ought to do in determining whether 28 there axe health hazards? SACRAMENTO OCPOSITION REPORTERS 4 au iu o iH a. s u it e a eAeaAMtMYa. c*urn*MiA t Cl c ^h o w c 4 ? < a 2 ? a 1 A Yes. > 0 "Iliac makes good sense, to go out and look first? 5 A Yes. 4 q Ck&y, If you want to know a. particular dust sample 5 or level, it's very difficult to go out and tell fay 6 looking at it? 7 A Ho, I don't think so, 8 Q Could you call me any given particle count by looking 9 at the dust in the air, just fay looking at it? 10 A I believe an experienced person could. II Q Eow many tines had you looked, before you looked in 12 Augusta, Kansas, at the asbestos dust levels in the catting 13 shops 7 14 A ilcma. 13 Q Had you ever looked at any asbestos dust at the 16 location with asbestos dust? 17 A Wo. IS Q Have you had any experience in determining how many 19 particles per cubic foot of area you had in breathing in 20 the zone at the time you made your observation in Augusta, 21 Kansas ? 22 __,A Ho. 23 Q You were taught, as a hygienist, that you ought to 24 use scientific methods as much as possible? 25 A Yes. 26 Q And scientific methods in determining dust levels 27 was based upon taking air sample testing, isn't that right? 28 A That's part of it. S A C H A M fiN T O O P P O SIT IO N fl P D ffT E R S f i t U auiU diH B, K U IU a s *?az7a 1 3 4 5 6 l S j ; 9J 10 u 12 13 14 ,, ! 16 17 18 i 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 5 Q it certainly isn_' c based upon going out and lookiag_ _ sc it'and deciding what she dust levels are? A -It's "be same thing as when a doctor looks at you and decides what's wrong with you without casts. '0 Okay. And you were taught that that was an acceptable industrial hygiene practice as for as determining asbestos dust levels to go look at the asbestos cutting; shoo? A I can*!: answer that. An axneriecced ran can go in an area and by smelling car. cell the approximate level of . SQ2, Q If you have no experience in evaluating asbestos dust levels', how could you tall by looking at a given location, as a hygienist, what the dust levels were? A You couldn't tell what tpey ware. MR. HALLORAN: No further questions. MR. SHANNON: No further questions. MR. HALLORAN: I'll stipulate that the witness can sien the deposition before any Notarv or he can sign it under penalty of perjury, and that the court raoortar can be relieved of her obligation of getting it signed and filed. If it hasn'c been read and signed by the tine of trial, I can use a copy as though it had been signed, read and signed, at the time of trial. MR. SHANNON; 'What are we going to co with the original and all that jaz=? MR. HALLORAN: We can send the original tc the witness, if you'll read it, sign it, and return it, would you do that? S A C A A H *f2isNfiT aO AUDtEUOPIOMISZ.I TsI OuiNte+eZp*o r t e h s bTaOS,k<ammiprMntb4.aCAe u. ra aZ7miBA TITS WITNESS: (witness nodding head.) ____ .ME. HALLORAN: You have to answer out loud, 3 ...... THE WITNESS: I beg your pardon? 4 MR. KAIXORAN: If we mailed the original to your 5 home, would you.sign it and return it within thirty days? 6 THE WITNESS: Yes -- well. yes. 7 MR. HAILORAN: It won't be out rhare for a week or 8 two anyway, 9 MR. SHANNON: To you want to waive the signing of the LO deposition? il ME. jJALLORAN: As long as you can agree as though it >2 had been signed .-- if I can use it as though it had been 13 signed. 14 MR. SHANNON: Well, why don't we do this: Why don't 13 we have the reporter send the original to me, and I'll 16 see about getting'it down to him for review. 17 MR. HALLOEAN: Okay. That's fair enough, as long 18 as you'll agree if he hasn't gotten it read and signed rCLCFH D w t * a 7 -3 2 7 8 I certify than t!ie said transcription was by the said witness, Arthur C. Rabat, thereafter read over, 3 corrected and signed, ana by the said witness declared to 4 be his deposition in said action. 5 13 WITNESS WHEREOF, I. have hereunto set ny hand and 6 affined ay official seal at ray office in the County of 7 ________________ State of California, this _ _ _ _ _ 5 day of _______________________ , 1 9 ______ . 9 10 :i .Notary t'ubj.a.c -n ana for cne"'Count7 ~oT" 12 ________________ , State of California. 13 14 -iy Commission Expires; 15 16 17 -- oOo-- IS 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 SA C SA M E K T O D E PO SIT IO N B E P O S T E B S f S t a auiLPiM S, s u it e 2 je*UfDWA TCi.ciNaNf ***7-3270 - STATE OF CALIFORNIA ) ) SS. COUNT? OF SACRAMENTO. ) 3- * I, Katherine L. Dicks, a Notary Public in and for the 5 County of Sacramento, State of California, duly appointed 6 and commissioned to administer oaths, do hereby certify: 7 That I am a disinterested parson herein; that the 8 witness, Arthur C. Pabst, named in the foregoing deposition 9 was by me duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth 10 and nothing..but the truth; that the deposition was reported 11 in shorthand by m e , Katherine L. Dicks, a Certified 1 12 Shorthand Reporter of the State of California, and thereaftei U transcribed into typewriting. 14 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto sec my hand and 15 affixed tty official seal at my office in the County of 16 Sacramento, State of California, this _______ day of i 17 ___________________________ , 1 9 3 0 . 1 18 19 20 Notary "'Public in and for the'County i 21 of Sacramento, Stare of California. 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 s a c r a m c n t o d e p o s it io n r e p o r t e r s a a su iu d in o . s u it s 4 3 * M e e M C N T O . 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