Document 93bo5GgBQzrVmJN5Nzy1Vkve5

FILE NAME: Drywall Spackling Compounds (DWSC) DATE: 1977 Aug 15 DOC#: DWSC046 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Transcript - Public Meeting on Asbestos - US Customer Product Safety Commission  1 2 3 4 5 e 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 N I T E S T A T E S COViSaMSR P K D O C T S A F E T Y CO.Y.H2 SS IOK Public Meeting on Asbestos Monday/ August 15, 1S77 Consumer Product safety ~~ Commission 1111 13th Street, N.W. 3rd Floor Hearing Room Washington, D. C. JOHN BYINGTON, Chairman BARBARA II. FRANKLIN, Commissioner R. DAVID PITTLB, Commissioner THADDEUS GARRETT, Commissioner LAWRENCE M. XBSHNBR, Commissioner BON-01277 2 t 2 P articipant Pans 3 John 3 . Bush 0 . 8 . Gypsum C orp. 7 4 O nline Nenoth Bondox In te rn a tio n a l 27 5 B arry Rhodas Onion C arbide co rp* 62 6 181 7 Suedeon Gibbons N a tu ra l Resourcae Defense C onnell 107 8 B arry Cantlanan E nvironm ental C on sultant 154 9 P eter siapeon. R ustic C ra fts Co. 123 10 R ob ert Rauch, E nviron m e ntal Defonso Bund 136 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BON -01278 CKAIRHAN BVINGTON s Vis'll call this public meeting then* asbestos by the . S. Consumai: Product Safety Com mission , to order. This meeting has been called to hear oral presentations of data, views or arguments on the Commission's proposal^to ban two consumer products under the Consumer Product Safety Act. I'm John Byington, Chairman of the Cosmissioa, and also participating are Commissioners Lawrence Kuslmer, Barbara Franklin, David Pittle, as well as u.eubera of our staff. Mr. Jules Bigio, the Office of Engineering and Science, Dr. Robert Helir, Office of Health Sciences, Charles Jacobson, Division of Enforcement, Dale Ray from the Division of Economic Studies, Francine Shecter, from the Office of Program Managementf B. Pitkin, Office of General counsel. We are also pleased this morning to welcome participants from a couple of other agencies participating in this effort, as part of the new interagency cooperation and coordination, and we have Mr. William Warren of the Standards Division of OSHA, and Mr. Ron Levine of the Office of General Counsel of EPA. And also we have just been joined by Commissioner Thaddeus Garrett. Now, on April 28th, 1977, the C o m m i s s i o n announced ita decision to propose banning consumer patching BON-01279 4 1 2 and artificial ap`.berir'.ng materials containing respirable, 3 free form, asbestos. 4 The proposal to ban wea published in the Federal 5 Register of July 29 , .1977, and also since that tine copies of the proposal have been sent to 51 manufacturers of 6 7 patching compounds, as well as copies have been provided to The Fireplace Institute for distribution to gas log 8 manufacturers and distributors. 8 Now, the scope of the proponed ban on patching 10 compounds would include all such compounds that are dis 11 tributed to or used and enjoyed by consumers and consumer 12 environments such as homes and schools. 13 The proposed ban, which would be effective 30 14 says after publication of the final rule, would apply to 15 products in inventory as well as those manufactured on or 16 after the effective date of the rule. 17 Now, the scope of the proposed ban on artificial 18 emberizing materials would' include all such materials in 19 inventory as well as those manufactured on or after the 20 effective date of the rule, and the proposed effective 21 date for this ban would be the date of publication of the 22 final ban, of the final rule, rather. 23 Now, in addition to soliciting written comments, 24 the proposal also advieed that ar. opportunity would be 25 provided for oral presentation of data, views or arguments BON - 01280 5 1 on the proposed bans as required by section 9 of tha Consumer z Product Safety hot. 3 And the Commission regulations that cover all 4 oral presentation# such as these are in 16 CPR 1109. Oral 5 presentations provide interested persons with an opportunity 6 to participate in rulemaking activities and such participatio 7 and discussion between the Conmiseioners and interested 8 persons during oral presentations might not otherwise be 9 available. 10 The proceedings of this meeting are non adver 11 sary and informal as legislative proceedings would be. 12 There are no formal pleadings or adverse parties as there 13 are in court proceedings. 14 A transcript of this meeting is being made and 15 should be available within 10 days. Interested persons, 16 including those speaking today, may submit written comments_ 17 and other related information to the Office of the Secretary 18 on both the proposed bans as well as issues discussed 19 today until August 29, 197?. 20 These comments, as well as the transcript of 21 this meeting, will be considered part of the public record, 22 on the proposed bans, and will be available for public 23 inspection. 24 How, the Commission has received seven requests 25 to make oral presentations. Questions will be asked of BON-01281 I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 0 10 It 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 these salting oral presentations only by the presiding of ficer commissioners, and cowsiooion and staff members. Any participants or others in the audience who wish to ask questions of the participants should write out their ques tions, give us their names and organizational affiliations and pass them up to Hiss Francine Sohecter, sitting right there. Papers are available at the roar of the room. Persons1 questions will be asked subject to such limita tions as time, relevance and repetition allow. Questions as well as presentations should be confined to the scope of this meeting, and as presiding officer ve will attempt to allow as many views as possible to be heard during this proceeding within that scope. How, at this point in time we have not received any advance copies of any written statements or outlines, so any of the parties who have prepared statements, I would ask you to provide them to Mr. Shelton Buts here, unless you already have copies to distribute. If you do then we would like you t.o provide him with sufficient copies for himself and for the Commissioners, and as many other copies as you have for staff. Z you don't have sufficient copies with you, if you'll give him one copy we will take care of the duplication and provide them, the Commissioner and staff, \<ith copies from our own BON-01282 7 t 2 facilities. So we would approdate as noon as possible your 3 4 providing that to hi. The following persona are scheduled 5 to make oral presentations. Michael Helton of u. S. Gypsum, Julius Heoeth of Sondex, Harry Rhodes of Union Carbide 6. Corporation, Svedeen Gibbone of the Natural Resources 7 Defense Council* Barry Castleman, the Environmental Consul 8 9 tant, Pater Simpson of Rustric Crafts Company, and Robert Rauch of the Environmental Defense fund. 10 If In addition, although he does not plan to ijiake an oral presentation, Mr. oDoCarter of Jones Mansfield 12 13 Corporation is with u s , and will be available to answer any 14 questions. If that ia agreeable in terms of providing the 15 material, other than any informal comments that you have, ~ 16 we would begin and w e 'd aall then Mr. Michael Helton of !178 the U. S. Gypsum Corporation, who has asked for approximate 19 ly 20 minutes. Mr. Helton, MR, BOSH: Mr. Chairman, Mr. Helton could not be 20 here, h e 's sorry this morning. 21 CHAIRMAN SXINGTON: It would be fine, if you'd 22 also give us your name and title, for the record. 23 MR. BOSK: Good morning, Mr. Chairman, members 24 of the`Commission. My name is John S. Bush, B-o-s-h. I 25 am director of Governmental Affairs of United States Gypsum BON -01283 8 1 2 Company, 3 X ara appearing today on bohalf of my company 4 an4 comment on the Consumer Product Safety Commission's 5 proposed rule concerning asbestos containing patching compounds. 6 7 .During thei^ 50 years, past 50 years, patching 8 compounds have been manufactured' in the Suited states as 9 a complement to the steadily increasing use of gypsum wall board and as a repair material for existing plaster or gypsum j 10 wall board, as dry wall walls and ceilings. . VI t 12 Patching compounds are known in. the construction trades as surface preparation products, a collective term 13 14 which includes three basic compositions. Joint treatment 15 compound, spackling material, and patching plaster. 16 In terras of volume, joint treatment compound is most 17 significant of these products, so X will concentrate on 18 this class of product. Joint treatment compounds are esmentous 19 materials, typically used to reinforce and conceal joinings 20 of gypsura wall board used on walls and ceilings. Joint 21 treatment compound ia also used to patch, fill, and texture 22 surfaces much as speckling material is used. 23 It may be purchased in dry powder, or ready-mixed 24 form. Joint treatment compound products are chemically ! 25 BON-01284 9 designed to satisfy at least 15 critical roa;ui.retnan.te, working characteristics and performanc proportion. These include shelf life, wet nix life, stability consistency, slip, wet pack, feathering, coverage, low shrinkage, bond, edge and check resistance. These products must be designed to work under widely varying weather and olivatic conditions, applica tion methods and tools. Most powder and ready-mix products are sold in three functional forma7 taping, topping and all purpose. The taping form is designed with particular emphasis on high bonding properties as a first coating over wallboard joints. The toping form is designed to provide easier finishing properties while all purpose is a conven ient compromise of the taping i n , copying functions. There are well over 1400 possible synthetic and natural raw materials that may be considered in preparation -- in preparing a new surface preparation formula. The use cf each ingredient may produce a product that differs from all other products in grade, color, composition, purity and reaction. Changing any one in gredient, beneficially or adversely afsect.3 at least one ofthe critical performance properties. This delicate relationship makes joint compound BON-01285 1C formulate- into very u -0;c , coir.p? a.".. ^.r.d 'Jivni-rncTiaq' prccea3 . it single formula la a d d o n catoptebls la multiple msirkets and therefore a family of accoptabiy bniancbd slormulas is required. Aay change in working properties can quickly affect uzer acceptance. Ovv the yearB joint treatment compounds 'technically contain a. very ainer amount of as bestos, usually no more than a few .percent. For this reAaon we war* not convinced that thaw presence of this vory small amount of asbesto'3 posed a threat to health. However, when the health issue waff raised in the early 1970s, the United States Gypsum Com pany funded a research project to develop non achestos formulas for all of these surface preparation materials. This research project Me a complex and expensive effort, however we are pleased to note the project was successful. As a result of fchie success. Unitoe States Gypsum, during the last few years, has offered & complete line of non asbestos, joint treatment products. Today, United States Gypsum's cutir line of fchefce products* it. non at-feesto3 and available nationwide. Via believe our nonasbeetes formulas will perform their 'function of providing a proper, aosioiifchic si> ace ready for a final decoration in a manner equal the old CSSOSKtCS ror!auj... BON -01286 "t if 11 1 Wo also believe, such characteristics as shelf 2 life and vet life, and other working properties, are such 3 that these products can be marketed and used on the job 4 in a fully satisfactory manner. 5 There is always a reluctance to accept any change 6 but these new United states gypsum products are gaining 7 widespread acceptance. Any reluctance to make the change, 8 we believe, is due more to the habit and the continued 9 availability of asbestos formulas than to any substantive to reason. 11 Today, non asbestos products are sold to and used 12 by the same people that previously expressed a preference 13 for the asbestos containing products. While the constituents 14 of the non asbestos formulas obviously differ from the 15 older asbestos containing formulas, the non asbestos 15 line of products is manufactured with the same production 17 equipment used to manufacture the older formulas. IS United states Gypsum's non asbestos line is 19 available in a full range of sizes and packages from small 20 consumer size packages to larger, contractor size packages. 21 We believe the larger portion of joint -compound is consumed J 22 in new construction. . 23 Ite application is usually contracted to dry wall Q 24 or painting contractors', The products for the new construc 25 tion market move predominantly through building material BON-01287 12 1 specialty stores, lumber dealers, .large paint stores, mas '"I 2 merchandisers, and contractors. ghese products are S typically sold in 25 pound bags in the ease of powder, an o 4 62 pound, five gallon containers in the case of the ready 5 mixed products. 6 While the contractor is believed to represent 7 the larger share of the market, a certain percentage does 8 find its way into consumer channels. The joint treatment 8 industry is composed of some 100 manufacturers in approxi to mately 26 states, which encompass over 130 plants in 238 11 warehouses. An estimated 55 percent of total.volume was 12 manufactured by five or six national or near national 13 producers. 14 The balance cornea from regional, sectional and 15 local producers. In summary, it is our company's positioj 16 that in the event the Consumer Product Safety Commission- 17 implements the proposed limitation on asbestos containing 18 products, that action will not appreciably disrupt the 19 market. 20 Comparable non asbestos products are, and for 21 several years have been, available from United States Gyps u 22 as well as other manufacturers active in the industry. 23 Reformulation of the various asbestos containing products & 24 would be requires but v;e, at least, have not found it 25 necessary to make major new capital investment for new BON -01288 1 13 2 or different production equipment. 3 gristing production equipment has been suitable 4 for non asbestos formulas. Generally speaking, tha same 5 observations are true, are applied to speckling materials, although the term also is generic and includes products 6 which never did contain asbestos. a7 Patching plaster, a gpysum product as we use the 9 term, has never contained asbestos. Ihank you vary much 10 for this opportunity to make these views known to the Consumer 11 Product Safety Commission. 12 CHAIRMAN BYINGTOH: Okay, thank you very much, 13 Mr. Bush. 14 Can you identify for the Commission what types of substitutes were used when asbestos was taken out? IS 16 MR. BUSH: I do n 't know the formula, these 1400 17 potential alternatives that's been used, Hrv Byington, but 18 X will attempt to get that information. 19 "COMMISSIONER BYIHGTON: I think it would-be very 20 h.elpful to the Commission to have some understanding if there is a particular binder that was found most useful 21 22 and maybe of the c-eatsst use across the board, it would 23 be helpful to us 24 One of the things that w e 're constantly" faced 25 with is what are we looking at in terms of alternatives. Commissioner Franklin. BON-01289 14 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: Do I understand from your statement on page three that you are at this point selling both asbestos containing and non asbestos contain ing joint treatment compounds.?' MR. BUSH: No, ma'am. We sell nothing but asbestos free -- _ COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: Okay. MR.. BUSH: Hon asbestos products. COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN:- I wasn't clear from the way your statement was -- MR; BUSH: Oh, Z'm sorry, perhaps this wasn't -- COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: All right, well we've got it for the record. You're not selling anything -- MR. BUSH: No, ma'am. COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: -- with asbestos in it at ' this point. Okay. The other question that relates to what you have said here in the middle of your statement on page 3 is the implication that the non asbestos formula is perfectly acceptable to everyone who's using it and the implication further to me is that your sale3 haven't gone down as a result of your change in formula. Is that a correct assumption.?1 HR. BUSH: So far as the first question is con cerned, I think we're trying to say here that we -- that there is some resistance to the non asbestos compounds, but BON -01290 15 1 that we think this is just a norr.al resistance to change, 2 3 there are no substantive reasons for this, that many of 4 the people who were resistant to the asbestos non asbes 5 tos products, are now using it and quite happily, and we see no problem in it. 6 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: The reason I thought 7 that that was your conclusion was that sentence that reads, 8 today our non asbestos products are sold to and U3ed by 9 the same people that may have previously expressed a 10 preference for the asbestos containing produat. 11 MR. BUSH: Yes. 12 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN; You're saying that's true 13 but with some qualifications. 14 MR. BUSH; I think that's what we mean, yes, 15 m a 'am. 16 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN; Do you have any indica 17 tion as to what consumers think of the substitute? 18 MR. BUSH: I do n 't believe we -- 19 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: Now my presumption is 20 you were not selling -- well, y o u 've said that directly -- 21 to consumers, selling to somebody else who sells to con sumers. MR. BUSH: Yes. COMMISSIONER FRAHKLIN: My question is, what do soneuseis think? BON - 01291 16 MR, BUSH; We have no information on that. 1 think the typical household consumer would be someone with little experience with the product# and not know the dif ference, quite frankly. But rather the people who make a profession of applying these things would be the ones who might notice a-change. But we have no -- we have no extensive consumer marketing apparatus but rather we're primarily involved with major contractors. So I don't know the consumer re action. COMMISSXOBBR fRANXLIH; I hear again in your statement your conclusion that you feel that our regula tion is not going to, and I quote here, "appreciably dis rupt the market." MR. BUSK: our experience, and that of our per sonnel throughout the United States, has been that most of the major producers now have non asbestos compounds, and we see no impact Or no slowing in construction or what not, if you decide to go ahead with this. COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN; Hy question then would be whether you as a representative of one of the major producers, could foresee any difficulties that might accrue to small manufacturers. MR. BUSHt I don't know, quite frankly. You know, BON - 01292 17 typically many businesses are teetering on the verge of collapse in any change that can cause them difficulties. We -- I have no information that would put anyone out of business. COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: Okay. But there do appear to be some small -- MR. BOSH $ Well, we aay, what, seven -- COMMISSIONER FRANKLINi -- sort of small business MR, BOSH -- 6t five or six. COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: Yes. HR. BOSHs Manufacturers, probably produce 55 percent of the total, and there are 95 or 94 other prom ducers, we say a total of about 100. COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: Yes, that's really my question and my concern -- MR. BUSH: Yes, ma'am. COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: -- about the impact on the small companies. Thank you. COMMISSIONER PITTLE: Do you know if the substi tute that you're using is fibrous at all? BR. BOSH: I don't know anything about the formu lation, I'm sorry, Commissioner Pittle, but I'll attempt, as Chairman Byington asked, to get that information and send it to you. BON - 01293 18 t COMMISSIONER PIT7LK*. 'fha name of it is one thing, 2 but certainly if the r.aso turns out to be something .of a 3 4 trade secret I can understand your concern about it. But 5 X would like to find out if there is any fibrous content to it. 8 7 Do you know if -- I guess when you're supplying it -- I won't ask if you know, but when you supply the 8 9 other information, would you try to give an indication of the kind of safety tests on the material that you performed JO before you marked it. 11 MR. BUSH: Yes, sir. 12 13 COMMISSIONER PITTLRi On page 2 you made a com 14 ment that the joint treatment compound is typically, in the past, have only contained a small amount of-asbestos, IS 16 usually no more than a few percent. 17 If there is a way you can tell us a little more precisely whether it was five percent by weight or three 16 percent by weight -- 19 MR. BUSE: tes, sir. 20 21 COMMISSIONER PITTI.E; -- that would be very help ful also. 22 And finally, on page 4 you mention that roughly 23 55 percent of the market is in the hands of five or six 24 large producers, roughly half of it is five producers and 25 BON -01294 t I 19 the other half is with 95 producers. Do you know if the four or five other large producers market a completely asbestos free line at all? MR. b u s k i From their containers I've seen around town, construction jobs, and -governmental affairs is my area, you know, rather than the construction business. Virtually all of them have asbestos free or non asbestos on the containers. But I'll get the answer. COMMISSIONER J?2TTXEt The other half then, the 95 smaller manufacturers -- if you have any knowledge . about that that would really be very helpful. You made a statement somewheres on page 2,to tie that off completely, that there were well over 1400. possible synthetic and natural raw materials that could be considered. Of those 1400 on a group of 1400 that could be used as bonding agents, I mean, it's not like asbestos would be competing with 1400 other ingredients. MR. BUSHt Yes. COMMISSIONER PITTDE: And use. Is that total different kinds of ingredients that go into it? MR. BUSH: I believe this is all the ingredients. It was -- COMMISSIONER PITTLE? So how many different kinds o thing are there that a s bestos weulcl be c o m p e t i n g with. BON-01295 1 are there only three or dour logical substitutes, or 20 or 2 3 50? Bea&use that would help us to know more what the 4 -- what we aspect to see in the substitutes , except 1 guess 5 from what you're saying, the substitutes have already taken 6 place and the industry seems to have regulated itself 7 MR. BUSH;_We spent, X think, an awful lot of 8 money solving this, and you know, X would guess if we 8 gave you a list of 21, 20 of them probably aren't very goodr and we discovered which one was. 10 COMMISSIONER PXTTLEt And you found it. It MR. BOSH: You don't spend a lot of money unless 12 you hope to cone to, you know, the best answers. 1134 COMMISSIONER RXTTL2-: Thank you. MR. BUSH: Thank you, sir. 15 16 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN BYINGTON: Okay, let me follow up on a 1178 couple of those that were passed up because they relate to where Commissioner Pittle left off. If you could also 18 -- .we can also give you for the record if you would like a 20 list of a couple of those questions. 21 And that was, when you decided -- when you give 22 us the information on the substitute, one of the questions 23 is that if the formulation patented that you have, and 24 if go is it available for license, for some of the smaller 25 manufacturers, which also may get back to what Commissioner BON-01296 21 Franklin was talking about where they may be able to work out a licensing arrangement, if that's agreeable. And one of the other questions that's been asked that we would appreciate your checking on when you give us the information on the substitute is that have there been any toxicological testing on tho substitute, have you done any testing on the substitute that you're using, and how are you monitoring your asbestos and your finished non asbestos compounds? Xn other words when you say some of these axe asbestos free or non asbestos compounds, how are you checking on that, and do you really mean that they're totally asbestos free? MR. BOSH: Yes. CHAIRMAN BYINGTON: Or do you mean that you're not using asbestos as part of your formulation and there may still be seme contamination. MR. BOSH: You mean from another ingredient or something. Hell, I can cheek that. CHAIRMAN BY2NGTON: Okay, because that's what we're -- in other words when we said they're asbestos free, that may mean that you are not overtly using asbestos as one of the ingredients in the formula. On the other hand, we're looking at whether or not the overall product is being checked and is it being monitored, and if so are we BON-01297 22 getting soaa asbestos through contamination., and what kind of levels, that this night result in. HR. BUSH: lree. CHA IRKAH BYIfJGTON: Commissioner Franklin. COMMISSIONER FRANKLIH: I wanted to follow up one more time on the concern about what consumers may think' of the substitute product in terms of how it work3, and so on. KR.BUSHt You're talking about the household consuner. COMMISSIONER FRANKLINt I 'm talking about the household consumer because that really is where our- concern is. MR. BUSH: I'll see if we have the information on that. COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: We are talking about con sumer products. Yes, I would simply ask that you would provide whatever you could for the record. I would further follow up this question about tosicological testing, and indicate that if you have done such testing in substitutes, that we should have, for the record, what tests and what the results were. MR. BUSH: Yes, na'am, okay. CHAIRMAN 3Y1NGE0N: Commissioner Kushnes. COMMISSIONER UUSHNER: Or page 4 I'd just like to BON-01298 23 f 2 clarify something, although your statement appears to be 3 quite explicit, fou say there are some -- 4 MR. BUSH; My problem is this is Hr. Helton's 5 statement, and I got it at 10:30 last night by aircraft, commercial I might say. 6 7 COMMISSIONER KUSHNER: You mentioned that the joint treatment industry is composed of some 100 manu 8 facturers, you literally mean manufacturers, foraulators 8 to of joint compounds. MR. BOSH: X think we mean anybody who mixes' it It up and offers it for sale, and that could be somebody in 12 13 a bath tub someplace, probably, that we may not know about 14 i t , you know. COMMISSIONER KUSHHER: Is there very much private IS 16 labelling? MR. BUSK: I don't know. I. can find out what we 17 do in that. !8 COMMISSIOHER KOSHNER: X think that would be 13 20 useful information. jI MR. BUSH: Private consumer labeling you mean. 21 COMMISSIOHER KUSHNER: Yes. That was the only j 22 j question. j 23 CHAIRMAN BYIHGT0N: Okay,Commissioner PAttle,you 24. had one more question. | 25 COMMISSIONER PZTThE: Yes, I understand this is BON - 01299 24 1 .2 unfair Co you because you're juGt going to be a writer of 3 questions, but -** 4 HR. BUSHi No, I've got to be good for something. COMMISSIONER PXTTLE: Back when you did use as 5 bestos in your compounds, do you know, are there just a 6 7 limited number of suppliers of asbestos fiber used, or did you use a variety of people? 8 The reason I ask that is because I'm trying to 9 get a handle on the various kinds of fibers that we might 10 expect to find in a spackling or a treatment compound like f 1 12 this. It seems to me I've got-- 13 MR. BUSH: You mean a variety of types of as 14 bestos -- 15 COMMISSIONER PITTLB: Yes. 16 MR. BUSH: -- or a variety of suppliers of the same type? 1178 COMMISSIONER PITTLBx Suppliers who may have a 19 different -- who may say it's the same type, it might be 20 either slightly different in siae or due to the processing 21 by the asbestos manufacturer or supplier, might wind up seeing a different fS.ber in a line of products like this. 2322 MR. BUSH: Yes. COMMISSIONER PITTLE: For example, do you use 24 only -- well, I won't even pick one, I 'll just -- us only 25 brand X fiber in your products, and if we ever tested ysur B O N -01300 25 1 asbestos produot we would expect it to be all alike and 2 3 wp would be able to trace it. Whereas if you'd used a 4 variety of several different suppliers and it sort of all 5 got mired in together, the fiber might have slightly dif ferent characteristics and it may show up with different 6 7 measurements when these things are tested. And without a complete history of hew you've ever 8 used this, just whether or not you have -- 9 10 HR. BUSHi Yes, sir. COMMISSIONER PITTAS: -- and if you feel comfortable 11 in telling us who, then that would be good also. 12 MR. BUSH: Tes, sir. 13 COMMISSIONER PITTAS: Thank you. 14 CHAIRMAN BYINGT0N: And lastly, two other short 15 questions that were submitted. One is, was there any in 16 crease in the cost due to this change in formulation in 17 terms of the product, at the sale, the retail level, or is 18 it left to you any way, and if so could you give us some IS idea what percentage increase is due to the Row formulation. 2C MR. BUSH: Yes, sir. 21 CHAIRMAN BYIlCGTONs And secondly, in utilizing this 23 newly formulised product, is it more time consuming, is it 2: more difficult, is it at all more difficult either to use 3 or to apply-or longer drying period, in other words is z there any additional labor factors that would go into this BON-01301 26 1 because of the absence of asbestos. 2 MR. BUSH; Year air X understand that it is 3 slightly, but wfl don't believe i t 's substantive. 4 CHAIRMAK BYXHGTOMi Okay, that's the kind cf -- 5 MR. BOSH: Which is a kind of judgmental thing. 6 CHAIRMAN BYXNGTOH Okay. And you indicate that 7 in your statement of approximately 100, if it's possible a we would also appreciate your submitting to these questions 9 the list of those that you know o f , in other words you 10 came up with 100. w won't hold you to exactly 100, but. !1 we'd like the list of those that you knew of that you used 12 to compile that approximation. 13 MR. BUSH: Yes, sir. 14 CHAIRMAN BYIMGTON: Okay, there being no other 15 questions ve want to thank you, Mr. Bush. 16 MR. BUSH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 17 CHAIRMAN BYINGTON: We appreciate your coming. 18 The next witness is Mr.Julius Nemeth of Bonder 19 International. And I'd like to ask at this time that 20 anyone who does not have at least 15 copies of their 21 statement, if they would at this time give them to Mr. 22 Shelton Bats so that we could make copies now, rather than 23 in the future. 24 Okay. 25 h r , n e m e t h ? Hi?, chairman, in that regard I have BON - 01302 27 just some prepared notes t should I -- CHAIRMAN BYINGTON t That's fine. MB. NSHETHShould I back off -- CHAIRMAN BYINCTON No. MR. MBMETH: -- one parson and let him make copies in the meantime. Would you prepare that? CHAIRMAN BYINGTON* What do you just have some notes you're going to be reading? HR. NEMETH: Yea, I have just some -- it's a semi- prepared statement with hand scribbled notes on it, so if you want -- CHAIRMAN BYINGTON; Why don't you go ahead and give yours, then after wa're done we'll Xerox them. That's all. MR. NEMETHt Fine, thank you. CHAIRMAN BYINGTONsBut if everyone else who has any kind of a prepared statement and doesn't have 15 copies, would you please let Mr. Sheldon Butz know now so we can siake copies during this period. Okay. MR. NEMETH Fine, thank you. My name is Julius Nemeth, president of Bondex International, and I want to thank the chairman and members of the Commission for thi3 opportunity to appear and comment on the proposed ban for consumer patching compounds. Having read the proposed rulemaking as published ~ BON - 01303 28 1 in the Federal Register* it*3 clear that the Commission has 2 3 reviewed all aspects that have boon presented to date, 4 nonetheless since this hearing is scheduled to produce 5 further comment from the original petitioners, Z felt it advisable to comment on one or two points and to more 6 7 clearly state our position as a small manufacturer. Mow in our 95th year, Bonder International has 8 acted in good faith in starting a voluntary reformulation 9 program in early 1976, having more or less seen the hand 10 writing on the wall.' ~ . 11 With the goal of converting our entire line to 12 an asbestos free basis, as the Commission has pointed out, 13 many factors enter into such a reformulation program, in 14 cluding from a competitive marketing standpoint the im 15 portance of providing the consumer with equal or similar 16 quality and no major price penalty, while at the same time 17 competing in the marketplace with a more favorably formu 18 lated, asbestos product still available. 19 Our first conversion to noh asbestos formula was 20 in August of 1976, the second in December of '76, and as 21 of April '77 all production of asbestos containing 22 paint sundry, products was discontinued. We feel perhaps 23 a trifle prematurely, but nonetheless mandated by the 24 attention getting, though some erroneous media reports, 25 which alleged an immediate baa and needless to cay created BON -01304 29 considerable turmoil in tho marketplace among soma of our distributors and dealers in trying or attempting to estab lish a course of action Since it appears that most of the Commission's data is based on occupational statistics, it probably would be difficult to document the statement,.and I quote, "for many people, the major exposure to inhalable asbestos is in the home*" Particularly in view of the acknowledged, many sources of exposure to asbestos, which exist ia the environ meat today. Since we're told that the minimum threshold level of exposure is unknown, we fully expect and can ao* --cept the ban from the use of asbestos in wall patching materials, although again as a small manufacturer certainly more time for product testing would be desirable. He are concerned, however, that the ban, if it must be, should be exactly as proposed under CPSA instead of under the federal Hazardous Substances Act. Having acted voluntarily on the i-eformulation aspect, we're frankly looking at the economic impact and suggest it as a product in us for centuries. Asbestos is not an imminent hazard, and I be lieve a repurchase program would place an unfair burden on today's manufacturers, who as a matter of practicality would end up with the total purchase expense. BON-01305 30 1 la any case, such a recall program does not 2 produce the complete desired end result because of the 3 other asbestos exposure factors remaining in the market 4 place . 5 We believe that any repurchase program would have 6 a drastic financial impact on the email manufacturers, 7 ourselves included, with no real equity to the consumer 8 in comparing a recent unused purchase, and therefore re 9 turnable, versus earlier purchases already applied or 10 consumed. 11 Our products and those of some other manufacturers 12 have in fact been properly labelled to inform of asbestos 13 content, thereby providing the consumer with a product 14 choice. 15 In view of the media coverage on a national 16 basis, it's inconceivable that any consumer of patching 17 materials would sot in the last several years been apprised 18 of the controversy. 19 Although it was published that 100 and 360 days 20 were considered too lengthy a time period on .effective 21 date after the final ruling, `the Commission staff researchers J 22 nevertheless indicated that asbestos free products can e 23 probably be in distribution in about six months. 24 Under those circumstances, we respectfully 25 Suggest reconsideration of a 180 day effective date, BON-01306 t: 1 31 possibly staggered from manufacturing to distributor, to Z final resale/ to better facilitate clearing of all distri 3 bution channels of offending materials, and to further 4 minimise confusion over existing stocks when that date 5 arrives. 6 Proai'a practical standpoint, even without a 7 repurchase program, many manufacturers will, in all likeli 8 hood, have to relieve their distributors of any remaining 8 stocks of aebestos containing products. 10 One final point that I would like to make con 11 cerns the matter of the acceptability of continued contrac 12 tor use of asbestos containing products, and the need for 13 a clearer definition of suitable selling and buying pro 14 cedures which do not place unreasonable burden on existing 15 lines of distribution as far as determining the final user. 16 The fact of the matter is, many contractors 17 still do use, and many still prefer, asbestos containing 18. joint cement. If asbestos containing, wall patching 19 materials for contractor use are not to be banned, we 20 Suggest that labelling of this nature for contractor use, 21 for industrial use only, should then, in fact, be suf 22 ficient to place .the consumer on notice -and absolve any 23 manufacturer, vjholasaier or retailer of liability as to 24 ultimate uses. 25 One further means of limitation might well be in BON-01307 32 i package sire ainee the case of powder joint cements, in 2 3 the case of powder joint cements, that 25 pound bag, and 4 in the ease of premijs, the five gallon package, are more commonly though not exclusively contractor oriented. S Thank you, again. Sox this opportunity ad con 6 sideration. 7 CHAIRMAN BlINGTONt Could you be a little more 8 9 explicit in terms of your request that we reconsider the 10 180 day time frame? The way it`s presently phrased it would be 30 days after the day of the publishing of the !f final notice, and it would relate to the manufacturer. 12 MR. NEKBTR: Sale and distribution, as I under 13 stand it. 14 CHAIRMAN BYINGTONt So what you're talking about 15 what be your problem that you're raising is" not necessarily " 16 the 30 days for the manufacturer, it's the 180 days down 17 to the time. 18 MR. NEMSTH: Yes. what I `m saying is that your 19 staff researchers indicated that it would be six months 20 before you can have all non asbestos materials in distri 21 bution, so that if six months for that iB a reasonable 22. figure, then I'm suggesting that perhaps the 30 day figure 23 should perhaps apply for a manufacturing deadline, but to 24 allow additional time for the materials that are out there 25 to clear channels. Particularly under this CPSA proposal. BON-01308 33 I which would not call for a ben* 2 3 In ether word I ' thinking of the enforcement 4 end of this, in terns of clearing the channels out that perhaps 90 days for a distributor, or 180 days for a 5 distributor and a retailer might be a more realistic ap 6 7 proach to have everything out. CHAIRMAN BYINGTONi Okay, veil I understand now, 8 but I guess my confusion was that I'm listening to vhat 9 10 you had to say without, unfortunately, being able to Bee it. 11 You seem to be discussing that at about the same 12 time I think you said something along about need possibly 13 more time, reformulation time. 14 MR. NEMETH: I'm saying we can accept it. We 15 would, from an internal standpoint, we would prefer more 16 time for product testing, but we understand the situation 17 and we have been testing and have been working, and we 18 can accept the ban. 19 CHAIRMAN BIINGTONt Okay. 20 ^..NEMETH: I 'm just concerned about the proce 21 dures. 22 CHAIRMAN BYINGTON: The sevare economic impact 23 that you're referring to is.really related to recall, and 24 reformulation time, you believed, you can meet the 30 day 25 and the -- BON-01309 34 1 MR. HEHETH: Vie arc out of asbestos -- 2 CHAIRMAN BYINCTON: Nov. 3 MB. HBMfiTHi -- now, yes. As of April we complete 4 ly discontinued all asbestos patching type materials. 5 Ke have reformulated -- let me say that again -- 6 we have reformulated to a non asbestos basis. We have 7 not discontinued selling. But anything produced since 8 April, the end of April, has been on a non asbestos basis. 9 CHAIRMAN BYXNGTOMt All right, i f that's the 10 case, that was one of the reasons why X felt the time It frame should be shortened. I'm one of those who made the 12 motion supported by my fellow commissioners, but I mean, 13 one of my concerns and why Z particularly raise it, and 14 maybe they wo\uld have raised it as well for the seme reason, 15 was because of that. 16 In other words, if you take April, let's say the 17 end of April, and you start with May, by October you'll 18 be at the 180 day period. And my concern has been that 19 we have taken inordinately long -- 20 MR. NEMETH: I understand. 21 CHAIRMAN BYINGTOKt -- in getting from there to 22 here. 23 MR. NEKETH: Yes. 24 CHAIRMAN BYINGTON: And as I indicated, one of 25 the problems was that the deeper the staff and the Commission BON -01310 35 got into i t , tho larger aorta of the problems became, and we needed to clarify soma aS those in terms of the work that we are required bo do prior to publishing a proposal. It took us a couple of nontho or so longar than, we had originally anticipated that it would. And therefore since there was great, as you indicated, publicity, some of it unfortunately not correct, back in April when we originally made the original decision, and then the end of July when ve published, l felt that we had already used maybe another 60 days, 90 days, which, if you add the 120 comes not too far from the 180. And b o even in your own particular situation, if you assume, as you 6aid, you haven't been doing it since April, let's assume since the let of hay everything that's left to your place has been bon asbestos? ME. NEMETHt Mo, because we discontinued production, at that point and went into the production -- CBAIRMAS BYINGTONi Okay, SO -- sty* MB. HEMETH: But we shifted from inventory, so it s' CKA1RMAH BYIHGTONt What sort of an inventory do you maintain? MR. NEMETHt Well, there would be in soma instances, there would be a 30 to 60 to 90 -- some items 90 days in ventory . BON - 01311 36 I CHAIRMAN BYINGTON; On hand at the time. z So production stopped as of -- 3 MR. NEMETHs May let, for all practical purposes. 4 CHAIRMAN BYINGTON; Okay. 5 MR. NEMETH; Yes. 6 CHAIRMAN BYINGTON: As of the first of May nothing 7 bora was being produced. 8 MR. NEMETH: That's correct. 9 CHAIRMAN BYINGTON: Bat effectively you would to have through on the 90 day thing, you night have through It duly -- 12 KR. NEMETH: We night be coning to the end of it 13 now, yes. 14 CHAIRMAN BYINGTON; All right. 15 MR. NEMETH: Which means there is still some out in the distribution channels. 16 17 CHAIRMAN BYINGTON: SO your point is> agdin if 18 I understand it, no problem with the 30 days as long as 19 it's left at the manufacturer level, but if it's not and 20 it's at the retail level as well, there is going to be a 21 significant economic burden potentially facing the smaller 22 manufacturer because of what's going to be left in the 23 chain? 24 MR. NEHETK; Yes, and from a practical standpoint 25 we will probably be asked to take back from our distributors BO N -01312 ! 37 1 plus Ve have t h e other factor o f while w try to toil our 2 3 retailers to turn their stock, we really don't know how 4 much of It is still out these fro* sir months ago that may never come to the front of the shelf to be purchased. 5 And l*m thinking from an enforcement standpoint, two 6 7 months down the road-it's still there. If we then effectively have everyone go back and 8 pick it up, they will then begin to look at their stock to 9 10 see what is to be returned. CHAIRMAN BYXNGTON Commissioner Franklin, did 11 you want -- 12 COMMISSIONER FR&NKX.XN I wanted to follow up on 13 this timing question, bet's say we were to publish a 14 final ban in- September. Now 180 days, it would be six 15 months into the future, if X'm hearing you right -- 18 MR. NEMETH: Yes. 17 COMMISSIONER FRANKbIN< The chain would be cleared 18 by then, whether w e 're talking about -- . 19 MR. NEMETH: Six months . 20 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: Well, we're talking about 21 next March, I'm counting, is there any -- do you think 22 that some reasonable time like December or like October? 23 What I'm getting at is, do you think the chain would be 24 clear of asbestos containing material in 60 days from the 25 BON-01313 38 day we proposed the ban? Do yoa really think it's going to take the full 100? MR. NBKBTH; Well -- COMMISSIONER. FRANKLIN: Because 1 too was one who wanted it cat back -- MR. HSMRTll: Yea, and I understand the reasons why, of coarse. Certainly from our standpoint, when a final deternination is made, we will make every effort to notify our distributors and in turn all of their retailers to be certain that the merchandise gets moved out with the publicity there lias been they may or may. not. I don't know this for a fact, although frankly, we have not had anyone come back to us at this point and say, I've got asbestos in stock in view of everything that's going on, take it back. so the consumers are still buying the merchandise because it's out there on the shelf, frankly. So we would make certainly every effort, whatever the final determination is, to get the distributors and the retailers to get that merchandise out front on the shelves, to be certain it is moved out. COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: flhat is the size of your company in terms of sales volume? MR. NEMETH: Weil, about five million. COMMISSIONER FRANKLINs Okay. Is this ycur only BON-01314 39 1 business, the king of these kinds of -- 2 MR. NEMETH t well, powder paint sundries predomi 3 nately, powder and paste paint sundries, all types of 4 patching and resurfacing type materials. 5 C0K&X3STOKER FRANKLIN Let in ask it another 6 way. is the kind of products that we* re talking about here, 7 we've identified patching compounds, is that the major part 6 of your business? 9 HR. NEMETHi No, the ones that yo u 're identifying 10 her* now would be about 25 percent. n COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN3 Okay. Are you a public 12 company? 13 MR. REMKTH: las. 14 COMMISSIONER FRANKLINs I have no further ques 15 tions , thank you. 16 CHAIRMAN BYXHGTOHi Commissioner Pittle. 17 COMMISSIONER PITTAEx Yea. When you said that IQ asbestos containing products were still on the market, 19 do you have any feci for what percentage of the market 20 today on the retail shelves contains asbestos containing 21 products? 22 MR. NEMETH-. r 'rn -- 23 COMMISSIONER PITTAS; Could you pull one out of 24 the air? 25 MR. NEMETH: That would be di-ffieult to say. BON-01315 40 When I made tit comment even earlier about the tiro element, I was making a general statement because I d o n 't know how many other manufacturers are out there who have, in fact, converted or not converted to non asbestos. '/COMMISSIONED.PZTTRE* Are you one of the five or one of the 95? MR. NEMETH Oh, I' sure we're one of the 95. COMMISSIONER PXTT&S Oky, I just -- HR.NEMETHs I' certain wo are, in view of my predecessor. COMMISSIONER PXTTtE* Do you mind -- can you tall us vbat you used as a substitute? MR. NEMETHt Nell, calcium carbonates would be one, types of clay would be another. COMMISSIONER PITTI.B: They're not fibers then, in that sense. MR.NEMETH I certainly hope not, COMMISSIONER PITTL2t Okay, have you -- MR. NEMETHt I -- COMMISSIONER PITTLE: -- tested? HR. NEMETHr No, we're in the process of going into further detail on this, bat again it's a titco consuming thing, and to fcho beet of our Jcaov/iedgo at this point they are not. c o m m i s s i o n e r PITTEEi Do you plan to do any kind BON-01316 41 1 of testing sueh as either an optical scan or -- 2 UR. NEMETH Yeo. 3 4 COMMISSIONER EXTTLKr/ Back in the days when you did use asbestos, what percentage, by weight/ roughly, 5 was the asbestos in the final product? 6 7 MR. HEMB1EH> Well in the joint cementsj probably a little less than five percent 8 9 COMMISSIONER PITTI.B* Between four and five? to MR. NSHETRt Yes, between four and five percent. Now, that's an off the top of ay head judgment, somewhere 11 12 in that range. Speckling compounds as such would never have bad asbestos as an obvious part of the formulation, however, 13 that's a little side element there that we have never put 14 asbestos as such into spackliag compounds. But ~~ 15 COMMISSIONER PITTLEs That must have bean a 16 generic term that's -- 17 MR. NEMETHt Well, no, this is part of that talc 18 19 COMMISSIONER PITTLE: Oh, 20 MR. NEMETHt -- process. 21 COMMISSIONER PITTS.Es Oh, did you use talc? 22 k r . NEMETH: oh, yes. Hot in the joint cement but 23 in spackling compounds. 24 COMMISSION PITTEE: Do yot: still use talc or is 25 that -- BON-01317 42 'MR. WStiBTB: Tes. COMMISSIONER PXTVAB The termalifcie (pfc) count? HR. HlMETBt So longer, no. COMMISSIONER PITTAZi Oh, but you did? MR. NEMETBi Y e s e a r l i e r , yes. All that went out the window as of April. COMMISSIONER PITTASt Oh, I see, in April -- MR. NEMETH* Whoa the television stations and everybody, and our distributors, and everybody, began calling, and that was the first wo*<2 heard of it. COMMISSIONER PITTAS? I completely agree with you, the regulation through the press is probably not fair when there's not a chance to evaluate all of the evidence. MR. HEKSTKi Yes. COMMISSIONER PITTAS! I t 's just something -- MR. K3HETH Nevertheless, at that point -- COMMISSIONER PITTAS It works both ways. MR. NEHBTB: of course it does, and at that point vs dropped everything, which when I- aay that, when you do -- whoa you think you're on schadule, and then all of a sadden from that point on everything becomes a crash program, why some of these things we're still catching up os. c o m k i s s i o h s r PITT I.Ei W a 're aware of that, it's BON-01318 43 I 1 something I think we all suffer with. Going back to the 2 testing,whether you use the optical or the electron micro 3 scope, you don't have that equipment in your own -- o 4 HR. NEMETH: No. R e 've been sending the material 5 out. Re've had some materials out to independent testing 6 laboratories to give ub reports on, and we will be doing 7 ore of this. 8 COHHXSSIONER PXTTLBt Is that very expensive, that 9 type of-- do you feel was that a $5,000 test, was that a 10 11 MR. NEMETH 6h, no ,.no . 12 COMMISSIONER PITTLE* -- a $50,000.00 test. 13 MR.NBMBTH: No, it wouldn't be that expensive. 14 X don't have an exact dollar figure, but it wouldn't be 15 in that range where we would be -- 16 COMMISSIONER PITTLEs Less than a thousand. 17 MB. NEMETH: Less inclined to do it, yes. I 18 would say it would be less than $1,000,00. 19 COMMISSIONER PITTLE: Less than a thousand. 20 That's to determine any fiber content of -- 21 MR. NEMETH: Yes, there ay be some people in 22 the room that could answer that better than I can. I 23 don't know. 24 COMMISSIONER PITTLE: Does the -- your testing 25 will just be to determine whether there's any fiber as BON -01319 ; o ! J 0 44 1 opposed to what the toxicologic! effects of any linger-incf 2 dust would be on -- 3 4 MR. HBHBTH: Tes, at this point it would be basically on the fiber bocauseas a small manufacturer, 5 we really rely rather heavily on our raw material suppliers, 6 in terms of testing_<2ata. 7 COMMISSIONER PlTTX.Es And when you depend on them 8 do you ask them for tests and say what have you done to 9 assure me that I won't get taught for something that -- 10 MR. UEHETHs Hell, you don't always get too straight 11 an answer on that type of thing, it's difficult even to get t 12 material safety data sheets from cone of the raw material 13 suppliers. But we're accumulating a file over the time 14 period and when you ask enough you do get it. 15 COMMISSIONER PITTLEs If you were to receive 16 back a large amount of asbestos containing products like 17 you manufacture, like a year ago, two years ago, would 18 there be any way to recycle that or reuse it, or would 18 that be a total waste? 20 NR. NEMETH: It would be probably an additional 21 expense because w e `d have to go through special precuationary 22 procedures, I assume, in dumping it, in large volume to 23 one location, if it came in. 24 Ip resume that scattered out the way it Is 25 BON-01320 45 around the country, oure and everyone else's, the dumping process would be minute in terms of the other asbestos Already la the environment. But of course it all comes into one location/ and It all goes to one dumping location/ then I suppose some type of special^precautionary measures would have to be taken. COMMISSIONER PITTMSt So at this time your company doesn't have any plans, any specific .plans, to dispose of whatever might be returned from let's say a. distributor who says, no, I don't want it? MR. NEMETH: No, we do not. We will -r we hope that doesn't happen/ but we have no specific plans because we don't know the amount involved at this point. COMMISSION PITTLE : Okay. s MR.NEMETH: And X suspect if it came to that, and ve had a warehouse full, we probably have to contact some agency to determine exactly what procedures we should take. COMMISSIONER PITTX.E: Thank you, very much. CHAIRMAN BYINGTONi Commissioner Kushner. COMMISSIONER KUSHHER: I'd just like to follow up a bit on the. testing that you say is being done. This testing is simply to satisfy yourself that there isn't any asbestos in the new formulations? BON - 01321 46 MR. HEMSTHr Exactly. COMMISSIONER KUSHNBR* And what you lock for are what, fibrous materials, is that the -- HR. NEMETH * Yes. COMMISSIONER KUSHNBR* X guess it would be Interesting to no to know what somebody -- what kind of a definition the laboratory has of a fibrous material, what constitutes a fibrous material. Z wonder if you aould get that information for us from your testing laboratory. HR. NEMETH: Certainly. COMMISSIONER KUSHNBR* Once you had decided on an alternative formulation, to your product, did you encounter any difficulty in getting the materials? HR. NBKBTHi NO, we -- COMMISSIONER KUSHNBR* In what quantities you needed. MR. NEMETHS No, we have not had any difficulty in getting the raw materials* The hard part, w '* trying to get all the characteristics to perform aa the gentleman before me indicated, the testing procedure to get all the same or similar characteristics of the finished product. Ne went through a number of them, of course, but on those wo were working with now, we have no diffi culty in getting the raw materials. BON -01322 47 1 COMMISE IQJ3ER KU6KNSR: It wae ey understanding 2 it maa a fibrot\3 nature of asbestos that imparted fchs 3 desirable property, and yt now you are apparently being 4 able to formulate alternatives that don't have' fibrous 5 materials, and I'm -- S MR. NEMETH Well -- 7 COMMISSIONER JCUBHNER* That allegedly don't have a fibrous materials, and I'm interested in knotting what 9 the -- > 10 HR.NEMETH Yq b , X*ve made a note of that and 1! we'll certainly -- 12 COMMISSIONER KOSEHERs -- juat what you really 13 nean by non fibrous. 14 MR. NEMETH: Nell, what we mean by non fibrous. 15 This is a big debate -- 16 COMMISSIONER KOSBNERs Well your tasting company. 17 HR. NEMETH: Yes. 18 COMMISSIONER KOSH.NER; Yes. 19 CHAIRMAN BXINGTOWs Would you also address your 20 self to a couple of similar questions we asked Mr. Bush 21 from T7. s. Gypsum, in addition to those Commissioner Pittle 22 has already raised, and that would be has there been an 23 effect on the cost in terms of this reformulation, and 24 if it leaves you -- now, if you know what that's translated 25 to in terms of retail, w e `d appreciate knowing that. BON -01323 43 But we would liko to know wont kind of impact, If any, thorn has been, in terns of ooct, and secondly, in terns of labor in the application of the compound* in other words, is the compound mors difficult to use or more tin consuming to use, ofc cetera, and therefore maybe a more labor intensive product than the prior product was. HR. N2HETH: Hell, from ourstandpoint, because the bulk of our merchandise is in small packages, and goes to tha consumer -- in other words, the bulk of oar merchandise is sold through retail outlets, if the' average do-it-yourselfer is the typo of do-it-yourselfer that I am, he would not probably notice the difference, because he is not using it frequently enough. CHAIRMAK B*f1NGT0N: Correct. HR. BBMBTH: To really notice the difference and when h e 's doing it himself five minutes or 10 minutes more or loss wouldn't make that much difference. So we don't have that type of contractor experience. CEAIRHAM BYXNGTOBs 1 think that that's true, and I think that's what Kr. Bush pointed out, that the one or two times in my life that I might ever try it, I wouldn't, have anything to compare it to, so X -- MR. KEMSTM: Yes. CHAIRKJU9 B Y X H G T O K i -- wouldn't know if it took BON - 01324 49 longer or shorter, bet if x was doing it every ay, then I night.. But you indioafced a possible separation point between consumer and industrial, but you don't sell at the industrial level -- MR. NBMBTHs He ~ CHAIRMAN BIXHGTONi -- over 25 pound beg, and you -- HR. NEMETH Hell, we have it available, and of course through our distribution channels, some of the. 25 pound size and soma of the five gallon size and pre-mix might very well end up with a contractor, not on a direct sale basis, but through our distributors, so that's cer tainly possible. CHAIRMAN BYINGTOVs But isn't it true that through that same distributor, any consumer could go in and buy that 25 pound bag, or five pound container? MR. NEMETH: les, he certainly could, he certainly could. CHAIRMAH ByiNGTOH* Five gallon container. MR.NBMETH: Yes, X only brought the matter up because of the comment in the Federal Register -- CHAIRMAH BYINGTON: Correct. MR. NEMETH: -- to the efect that just labelling along should not- be sufficient, and yet if in fact the BON - 01325 50 contractor in going to bo allowed to continue to buy asbes tos containing products, than it seems to ne unfair to put a burden on that retailer to put hist in the category of a druggist and have to get signatures on where this material is going to be used. And even thon you can't be suro because the contractor using It in nev construction may have a bag left over that he gives to a workman* and the minute the workman takes it home he's a consumer. So we're right back to*'where do we draw tho line, and if the consumers know that this is for industrial or commercial use only, and it's marked that it's an asbestos product, then that should become his problem, X think, or it should be a total ban. x eertsinly don't throw that out as my recom mendation -- CHAIRMAN BYINGT0Hs which is where we are right now -- Ha. NEMETHi Yes. CHAIRMAN BYINGTONi -- which is what the total ban ia. MR. HEMETHt Yes.' CHAIRMAH BYINGTOK: Do you have any idea of what percent of your sales are at the 25 pound bag, at the five gallon level? BON-01326 1 a HR. NEMETHt X couldn't give yo OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS centage figure, but they're snail. They 3 before the 4 The bulk of our business la in -the small package, the CONSUMER PRODUCT SAFETY COMMISSION 5 gallon also, tha five pound sine*. CHAIRMAN BYIHOTOKi Do you label your product now 6 7 as being asbestos fra, or non asbestos, la other words do you any so on the package? 8 MR. NEMETHi VO or two products, we 9 i thftjfetfeij#: than anything just dropping th asbestos warnings 10 PUBffl !OGVHttrXmuA3P3fiH>Sn the packaging* It COMMISSIONER FRANKbXNt And hawing nothing, in 12 13 lacePbher W word, a s h in g no to n ; , wua.rCn.ing at all. 14 jfaite: A u g u s t 5 * Son of them say non asbestos because we began to promote those while we still bad -~ 15 we're still making botky^md-so we were offering a dif 16 ferentiation. Pages: j thru 215 17 But as we go away from it we probably will just 18 drop the asbestos warning, and on the assumption that the 19 ban will, of course, take effect. Xt really won't make any 20 difference as long as -- because they all will. 2! 22 COMMISSIONER BYXNGTON: V7ould you be a little Agne Reporting Company more specific for our staff that an terms _ I Washington, D . C. 20005 (202) 628-4888 Official Reporters B O N -01276 52 t a at that. But lot's assume that th day arrives the ban 3 takes affect# and even if we asone for the moment it was 4 5 a staggered basis# and it took 30 days from manufacture/ and X number of days# 90# 120# whatever# ISO as you sug 3 7 gested# at the retail level# at that point in time# whatever it ia# what would then really happen to that which is 8 really out there? 9 Would you have it recalled# or would you reimburse !0 and have then dispose of it locally# how would you pro II ceed? 12 ... . 13 HR. HBMBTHt How would X like to proceed? Os -- CHAXRtt&K BiXHGTONi HOW -- what would you like to . 14 'see happen? 15 MR. HSMBTHt X would just like to suggest that 16 everybody throw away what the^ have left in stock. 17 CK&IRMAH B7IHGT08* Take care Of disposal at the 18 local level -- 19 MR. MBMSTHi Exactly. 20 CHAISK&H SYXHGTOH: -- in smaller amounts. 2! MR..EBKSTHj Exactly# because -- 22 CH&IRMhB BTXHGTOH* Then would you reimburse, 23 or would you have to reimburse# or would you be -- 24 KR.SEMETHi That would be a very ticklish prob 25 lem. X don't suppaao that the manufacturer is any more at BON-01328 53 1 fault than the retailer or the distributor. It's a diffi 2. 3 cult question to answer. X know what X would like to sea 4 happen, again,hut X suppose market.situations would dictate. 5 CHAIRMAN &YINGT01: Also what your competitors do? 6 7 HU.HEMETa? probably. CHAIRMAN FRANKLIN( But under CPSA th.re is 8 9 not the same kind -- CHAIRMAN 0YXHGTOM Ho. to CHAIRMAN FRANKLINt -- of repurchase obligation 11 and -- 12 MR. HBHBTHi Yes, I understand that, as a matter 13 of faot that was the point X was trying to make, and I 14 hoped that the ban would go forward on that basis, because 15 then at least it becomes a negotiable situation between 16 the distributor or retailer and the manufacturer. 17 CHAIRMAN FRANKLIN Ive got two more. 18 CHAIRMAN STINGTOMi Go ahead. Commissioner Franklin. 19 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: Just to reiterate some 20 thing that l really am voxy interested is, and it was 21 mentioned by the chairman briefly here, and that is if 22 you do have any information, that would be helpful to us 23 with respect to how a consumer used your reformulation, 24 whether he likes it or doesn't like it, it works better, 25 works worse or whatever, I think that's very important BON-01329 o J Q 54 1 information for us. 2 Along thoeh lines I'd like to ask you -- 34 CHAIRMAN BytKGTONi Excuse mo, could I say some thing? I think what we both are looking for is that you 3 do, which unlike gypsum, probably have a closer retail 6 relationship or a consumer relationship because of the 7 nature of your product, and therefore possibly some of your 8 distributors nay have received complaints -- 9 to COMMISSIONER FRANKLINs Or nay have soae idea -CHAIRMAN BTISGTON -- or written you. 11 COMMISSIONER PRAKKAIBt -- about the efficacy, if 12 you will -- t3 CHAIRMAN BYINGTOH: Right. 14 COMMISSIONER PRAMRAINi -- of the new produets. t5 MR. NBMETHi The problem is since we just -- well, 16 I can -- we discontinued everything as Of May 1st, so 17 some of the things still going out since May 1st -- 18 COHMISSIONBR FRANKLINt ?es. 19 MR.NEMETHt -- were still, of the old type. On 20 two of the products, one in the powder joint cement, that 21 was discontinued and switched to non asbestos last August, 22 the gallon sise of pre-mix joint cement has been on the 23 market since December. 24 And we have had no adverse comments on either of 25 those two products. BON-01330 55 t CHAIRMAN BYXiJGTON* Okay. 2 COKKIfiSIORBR FRANKLIN X have a further question 3 here* and I*d like your reaction to the statement that's 4 in our proposed han. X quote sou, "for purposes of this 5 assessment, the Coaniesion considered the use of patching 6 compounds by a consumer, for sis hours a day. four tines a j 7 year, to be high yet reasonably foreseeable yearly exposure. " 8 9; that? Do you think we*re in the right ballpark with 10 MR. HEMBTH* I think that i t 's high. 11 COKHXSSXOMBR FRANKLINt You think it's high. 12 MB. HSKETHt YS, hut -- 13 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: hat do you think it 14 should be? IS MR. H2KBTB* X*R probably in the same position 16 that you*re in in trying to sake that evaluation. It's 17 high but it's -- X don't vant to say i t 's unreasonable 18 because X think it is high, but to try to put a lower 19 figure on it, again X would just be guessing, really. 20 CHAIRMAN BYXNGTON* Your lover figure wouldn't be 21 any aore defensible than that position, is that what you're saying? MR. NEMETHt That's about right. COMMISSIONER FRANKLINt Do you think that your point of view in what you have done with respect to your B O N -01331 56 voluntary reformulation of this product is similar to what other businoseas, of comparable site that melee this product, have done? HA. NEHBTHt Difficult to answer. X -- we don't really fraternise with our competition too much; and -- C0KMIS&2L0NBR fRANKhlH? Well, X understand. MR. HBMSTHx Yes. COHBXSSXOUBR PtUlMIiXHe Why you axe not, MR, HEME9B< So it a difficult for me to say thatr.other then that X might observe in the marketplace, and there are other small manufacturers around. And when .X was making some of these comments X was talking about all of us really as a whole, not necessarily what our specific position might be in terms of the turnover and what have you. More difficult for the small ones to reformulate' and to switch over. X think in talking to one or two people just casually, they thought this whole thing would blow over aadgo away, so there ay be a few who have not reformulated, and that* just a guaso on my part. I really wouldn't know that for fact. But X knew that th thought was, oh, well, you know, it's never really going to happen. COKKZSSXcraaa yR&UKktCi: 3nt in other words, ia your comments. particularly as they relate to the effecti> BON -01332 57 date of this regulation, 70a feel that you ware speaking, at least more or leas, foe other small manufacturers, aa, n e h s t k * yes. C0MKXS8IOHBR PHASniMt Okay. CH&XRMAM STIHGTOHi Commissioner Pittle, you have one more? COHNXS3IOBBR PITTLE t X was curious by the fact that yon have, and J*d just like to know what your thinking is, why you dropped the asbestos warning. X understand why you dropped if it doesn't contain it, why you didn't take the seat step and say, this doesn't contain asbestos. And that way it would be, you know, would grab the consumer's attention -- UR. HSHKTH: Well -- COMMISSIONER PITTLE, -- * to compete against all the other products in the market containing asbestos. MR.MEHETHr Wa have put that on a few products, but in view of the fact that we -- the remaining products that we got out of on asbestos were as recently a3 April, we anticipate that we're very, very close at this point to a complete, non asbestos situation, so that everybody is going to be in the same ballpark. COMMISSIONER PITTLE: All right, in other words do you believe that it's going to be that soon before you couldn't buy asbestos containing products in the market, BON-01333 o J 0 58 t X mean, do you p r e d i c t that's going to bo, X mean, just 2 naturally in six month or a year? 3 MR. HBKETHi I'm sorry, X don't understand* 4 COMMISSIONER PITTbEi The way I'm understanding 5 it, it*a going to take quit* a while for the -- some number 6 of months, in tho two figures that -- 7 HR. HSMBVSt YS. 8 COMMISSIONER PITTbEt Xwo figures for the month 8 to somehow make sura there are no longer any -- if the 10 regulation wasn't in ax1stshoe but just naturally were to n take place -- 12 HR. NBHBTBl Y es. t3 COMMISSIONER PITTbB* -- it would take 24 months. 14 And it would seem to me if you had a product that didn't 15 hare this undesirable oharacteristie that you'd want to 16 advertise that and push it, to-reach out and grab the 17 consumer*a attention and try to steer them toward your T8 product* 19 MR. HEMBTH: Yes, vs have done that on some spe 20 : cific products, and especially one or two brand'new 21 products that we formulated from the start as being non 22- i asbestos. On those we did play up the non asbestos 23 feature quite heavily. 24 But only on those, and X guess, again, from a 25 practicaleconomic standpoint, our type of packaging is BON-01334 59 on automated equipment with overwrap type packaging,.which is the easiest tray, X guess, to describe it would be the type of packaging that goes on a cracker box. Every box is individually wrapped, and it gats very costly to be changing labels, diructions, which we've had to go through quite a bit of this in recent souths, recent years, as various regulations have cone out. Xt gets very costly to eonpletely scrap labels, we buy then In enoraoue quantity, and to throw then out and rede the place and reprint when we see thiB nan asbestos thing taking shape the way It is any way, probably an econonic consideration as much as anything else. We've evaluated that, and on those where we felt it would be advantageous to say non asbestos, we did it. On others where it didn't stake any difference because the whole thing was going that way shortly any way, and it was a standard in the line, we just didn't do it because in six nonths it would be redundant to say non asbestos, we assume,.or 90 days, os whenever, it will be redundant to sa: non asbestos. C0KHISS10HBR PIXELSi X see. It seemed to me if you were going to have space, that you had asbestos warning and whan you redid your 'labels, to take that out, but that'a. a decision I wasn't part of-- MR. NEMETH: Y e S . BON - 01335 I 60 1 COMMISSIONER f ZCTLB: -- and I don't know all the 2 parameters* But you could have just stuck in there no ae 3 bestos* 4 And I'o juct vondsring, there ia not possibly products that you'd be computing with yourself in tarns of 6 one product you had out, would have asbestos in it and 7 another one that wouldn't. 8 MR. HBMEStti Kell only in an overlap situation 9 where *- 10 - COHKXSSXONSR PITTLB Overlap. It MR. MBTKi Tea only where we bad discontinued 12 and still had son of the old in stock. 13'. COMMISSIONER PXTTLEt I see* Okay. 14 CHAIRMAN BTINGTOKt Thank you very much, sir, we 15 really appreciate your coining down* And if you could, the 18 bits of infomation that we were asking, if you'd get us, 17 and supply that* 18 MR.KSMBTB: 2 will certainly try to. 19 CHAIRMAN BTXNGTON: Thank you, very much. 20: COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN * May I make a remark? 21 CHAIRMAN BVSNGTOH* Ves. 22 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: I just-wanted to add my 23 thanks to your coming* 1 think there are a couple of 24 points of view we don't typicall get enough of in the regula 25 tory decision making process, and one of them is small BON - 01336 61 1 z business. 3 And I appreciate your coming and taking the tim 4 and making your views known The other is consumers MS. HBKBTS Small consumers don't come either. 5 COMHXSSXOHBR FKAHX&XlIt Yes, small consumers 6 7 don't come either, X quite agree. CH&ZRMAS YINGT0H The next presentation will 8 he made by Mr. Rhodes o f the Union Carbide Corporation, 9 and it's my understanding that Mr. Rhodes has asked that 10 of his 30 minutes he would like to make part of his presen 11 tation now and part of your Prsentation later? 12 MR. RHODESi That's eorsaet. 13 CHAZRHAH SYXHGTOiTt Okay, go ahead and proceed. 14 i HR. RBODBS* X have 15 copies, but X would like 15 to request that they be given to the `.Commissioners and 16 staff only -until I 've completed my presentation, is that, 17 okay? 18 19 CBAXRMAH BYXRGTOHi Fine. Vou're concerned -- you're saying that the 20 distribution of this thing relates to, the press can't have 21 copies while you're going through it? O 22 HR. RHODESt X would prefer that I be allowed 23 to complete my presentation before it be made generally o 24 available. 25 CHAIRMAN BYINGTQHs Well, X think -- B O N -01337 62 1 MR. RHODESi It splits into two parts. I'd like 2 to present it before it's released to the proas. Is that a 3 problem with yon? o 4 CHAIRMAR BTINCTOH* Moll, X think they ought to 5 have the opportunity to go through it the same time that 6 we're going through it. X mean, this is a public meeting . 7 and you're going to make a public statement and you know 8 X think it would be appropriate if they were given at least 9 a copy of it to follow along as you're going through it 10 yea. 11 HR.RHODBSi Yes. 12 COMMISSIONER PXTThBt There may he people who 13 want to write questions up at the end of the presentation 14 and it*s kind of hard to follow a thick document like this, 15 ; orderly. . 16 CBAIRMAN BYXHGTOHt Why don't you make some more ` 17 for later. 18 MR.RHODES* x didn't mean it to be all that 19 complicated. 20 Okay, lot me begin by introducing myself. 21 My name la Harrison 8. Rhodes, and I'm speaking on behalf 22 of Onion Carbide Corporation where X hold the position of 23 technology manager in the "Califiria" Asbestos Department. 24 My education is in the field of chemical engineer 25 ing where X hold a degree of Doctor of Science from BON -01338 1 63 2 Columbia University. The past four years my assignment 3 has been in the area of asbestos health and regulatory ij 4 matters# and has also included re sear oh on monitoring tech 5 nigues. 6 I am alee aurrently serving .the asbestos In 7 formation association# north America# as chairman of the 3 standards and technical committee. Onion Carbide Corpora 9 tion has been actively engaged since 1963 in the mining !0 and milling of asbestos for facilities in Central Califor 11 nia. . 12 The asbestos fiber produced is marked throughout 13 the United States and in many foreign countries. One of 14 the principal applications for asbestos in this country has been in tape-joint compounds.. 1156 He do not ourselves manufacture such compounds, however,nor do we manufacture any other asbestos contain 17 ing finished products. As a commissioners are well aware, 18 there has been a tremendous flood of paper generated in 2109 relation to the asbestos regulatory matters under con sideration here. 21 He believe that several crucial issues have J 22 been lost in the flood, and would like to take the oppor 23 tunity today to address these issues as follows. Q 24 First, a look at all of the commercial and 25 consumer exposure data available today, including soma BON-01339 . J Q i) 64 t Z recent consumer bests, and also some OSHA compliance in-* 3 spection results. An examination of the risk estimation 4 model proposed by Dr. Bayard of the c p sc staff in 5 terms of actual coustuaer exposure. 6 Third, a discussion of the elimination for reduc 7 tion of unreasonable risk of injury as required by the 8 statute in the absolute sero risk regulatory approach that 9 is advocated by the petitioners. 10 Fourth, the direction of your attention to the fact that asbestos, of one type or another, is present 11 throughout the air, rater, and earth of this planet, and 12 the overwhelming consequences of a ban of ubiquitous 13 naterial such as this without a precise definition of what 14 is banned, a veil specified, analytical procedure, at 15 some allowable levels other than sero. ie Fifth, a presentation of a suggested alternative 17 approach to protect the consumer from unreasonable risk of 18 Injuries, which is more realistic, mors workable, and more 19 enforceable in the proposed total ban. 20 And this talk splits very nicely into the techni 21 cal areas and a discussion of the regulatory problems, 22 X will address for the first portion the technical matters 23 and present the information. 24 Should be emphasised that this discussion will 25 deal directly with and presented la terms of tape-joint BON-01340 65 compounds. Speckling compounds are similar la composition and use, but are applied in so much smaller amounts that the potential for significant exposure is virtually non existent. Baber1sing kite axe outside the field of our expertise, and will not be considered. Gypsum wall board was developed about 18B0, 1900. It did not come into wide usage until World Wax XI when the need for bouses.and other buildings made this quicker# less complex construction method very popular. Osage has grown substantially since that time and dry wall construction ia now used in the majority of residential and a wide variety of commercial and public buildings Initially, ordinary plaster was used to embed and cover the tape to make the joint between tbe boards# but in the mid-forties specially formulated dry mixtures# - with casesino as the binder introduced. These mixtures typically contained 10 to 15 percent asbestos, we have been told that the plaster at that time also contained asbestos, had let-me digress for just- s moment at this point. There seems to be a mis understanding that the asbestos is used as a binder in tape joints. The binder is a easing# a gluo, & v i n y l acetate, BON - 01341 66 something of that nature,diich makes itself hard. The asbestos does not function aa a bindor. To continue, ready is# that is wet compounds or mud, were introduced in the mid-fitbias were in broad, general use by 1960 The asbestos content of muds in general was high until about 1970, dropped during, the seven ties to approximately the range of two to seven percent. Tape joint compounds containing asbestos are thus not new but have been in widespread use for 30 to 35 years, and I certainly wouldn't quarrel with the previous speaker, who said 50 years. Over the first 15 years of this period, the main material used was provided dry and contained relatively high levels of asbestos* that is 10 to 15 percent. The Commission's consultants, A. T. Carney, incorporated, estimates that today's annual value of shipments`of . _ patching compounds is $80 million* Za an average price of 4.50 per can, this is equivalent to about IB million cans. The formulations we have seen cost about 20 to 30 cents more per can for raw materials to replace asbestos, so that the added burden just to cover raw materials cost is about four and a half million dollars annually. This cost, plus any percentage mark up3 used, would bo added to the cost of the structure and would BON -01342 It 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 to It 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 67 curry the normal finance charges over the life of the indebtedness. Xt should also be notod that about 1 0 ,0 0 0 tons per year of asbestos# with a product value of about one million dollars# were used in this application prior to the decline that has resulted from actions by a variety of governmental agencies tfe believe that the total five and a half million dollars annually represents a reasonably reliable# minimum estimate of the direct#, economic effects of the replacement of asbestos and tape joint compounds The added effects of the poor performance of many of the asbestos free muds has not been considered here. In the assessment of the risk that needs to be related to this cost burden# it is important to have a reliable esti> mate of the level of consumer exposure All of the available information on exposure has been assembled end is documented In -- and discussed in detail in an appendix to this presentation# which will be tr` submitted prior to the August 29th# 1977 deadline for written constants. Only the hey results will be summarised here. The data proeeatad are contained in five reports. First# the tests conducted by Rohl et al at one location in Hew fork City. This is the data cited by the petitioners. BON-01343 I 68 1 Second, a survey e variety of sanding condi a tions made by Rhodea and Ingalls and cited extensively 34 J by the Asbestos Information Association, North America, in their response to tho petition. 5 6 Third, data from state a:\d federal OSHA compliance inspections compiled by Sgnitable Environmental Health, 7 Incorporated, as part of a study of asbestos exposure in 8. the constrnction industry. 9 Fourth, a report submitted to the Consumer Product 10 Safety Commission by Union Carbide corporation on duly 14th, 11 1977, covering consumer exposure during a typical speckling 12 and a moderate sixod, dry wall installation operation. 13 And fifth, a study by Onion Carbide Corporation, which has 14. just been finished, on another consumer installation of dry 1615-f wall in a large room, including the ceiling. The results of this survey are summarised in . . 17 te' two figures you are now receiving. How, those are at tached to the back of the report. X have these. Would 19 you like some additional ones or do you want to switch 20 to the back? 21 J 22. CSA2RKAK BYXHGTOH* That's okay. MR. RHODES Figaro 1 shows along the vertical Q 23. asis the airborne asbestos concentration. The fibers per 24 cubic centimeter longer than five micrometers that occurrad 25 in the breeding sons of the operator, during the sanding BON-01344 69 1 operation 2 Usually a number of samples wore collected at 3 each location la a dark bar showing the range of concentra 4 tions found/ with the arithmutic average of all samples 5 indicated by the arrows' 6 She data on the left are those of Rohl, that were 7 cited in support of the petition* They were obtained in 8 one test in new Turk City* Sote that an exposure of 20 9 fibers par CC for four days was used by or. Bayard in his 10 a projection to risk, to be discussed later and the 3eale. 11 on that chart runs from aero to 20, ao the top line on 12 there is 20 fibers per ce. 13 The next group of result were obtained by Onion 14 Carbide Carbide Corporation in a survey of commercial 15 operations in eight different cities* Results range from 16 *2 to three fibers per ce. These fiber counts have been spot checked blind by two other laboratories* The RES and OSHA compliance data are shown next, and they fall in just about the same range as tbs results of Onion "Carbide* Bow, I might interject, over towards the left of that graft, Minneapolis, Minnesota was an asbestos: free aud and we're indicating several tenths of a fiber per ce, which may or may not be asbestos. But it does show up in the phase contrast monitoring procedure. BON -01345 70 I And there*a another one about in the iddia of 2 Denver, Colorado asboetoe free, zt'n the caste sort of 3 problem, iro*re not saying that those contain asbestos, 4 but ve're saying if you run it by tho OSHA inspection 5 procedure/ there ere fibers in there which must be counted 6 as asbestos 7 The conaunor use data is shown over on the far 8 right. The first case is for extensive apackling and the 8 to installation of three panels of dry vail. The second is for three walla and a ceiling in a large basement recrea It t2 tion rooau The latter aud contained two -- 2*6 p orcent 13 asbestos by Weight on the dry bases* Exposurea in these 14. tests vere only 2/10tbs to one fiber per cc longer' than 15 five nierons, which correspond roughly to the lower end 16 of the range found for connut-- eoomercial use. 17 COMMISSIONER p i t t a s t Excuse as. The three panels 18 of dry-wall yon just referred to, is that -- 19 HE. Rh o d e s * That *e th one-- 20 COHMISSOKER PITTAS* -- the study in the July 14th 21 HR. RHODES< That's in the July 14th, and the 22 picture there installing it yself. Those axe two other 23 operations in tape joint installation that present the 24 possibility of exposure to free form asbestos fiber. 25 The addition of dry ponder product watss, and BON - 01346 71 1 the clean up aiter sanding Data Cor these operations are 2 shown la figure 2. aero. In order to get the raw data on 3 the graph* it was necessary to run the scale free zero to 4 60 Instead of aero to 20 as la the previous figure. S Otherwise the graph follows the sane format and shows a very similar pattern. The raw data are far higher 7 than the OsaX results* and the consumer values are below 8 or ia the lower end of the range for commercial use. d It is very important to understand that all of to the concentrations shown occurred during the active pur It suit of the particular operation* sanding, wet out, or clean 12 up. 13 These operations generally take place for a 4 moderate portion of the day* with concentrations at much IS. lower values for the rest of the eight hour period, sight 16 hour time waited* average exposures were calculated for 17 the two consumer installations* and-the highest exposure 18 found was 2/10tfcs of a fiber per ec greater than five 19 microns for two days* while asbestos containing dust was 20 being generated. 21 One of your staff menbers* hr. Stephen Bayard* 22 has developed a model to estimate the risk of respiratory 23 cancer from low level exposure to asbestos from taping 24 compounds. This modern model is patterned on that pro 25 scribed in the paper by Rhodes and Henderson, except that Bon -01347 1 z 3 4 5 6 7 8 9. 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 ; 72 Or. Bayard has made as assumption that the effective dose la cumulative, This shows a geometric increase in risk into the model. Vs question vhother these is any basis for this assumption, we do not foel this is an appropriate place to debate the issne* It is of nore interest to use the model, which is heavily biased towards predicting a high risk, with the exposures just noted for consumer use. That is 2/10ths of a fiber per ee TKA for two days of operation. following Sr. Bayard's directions on page 3, part C of the reference which wo eite, for the highest time Waited average, of 2/lQths fiber per ec for two days found for oonsomex applications, we obtain an annual exposure of .004 fibers per ce per day for one year. A nean latent period to tumor of 621 years, and zero 17 deaths of asbestos induced cancer in the 40 year period 18 considered. 19 if the period examined is extended to loo years, 20 the number of deaths predicted would be .000003, which is 21 still fas lees than a single death. These risk estimates '} 22 are probably on the high aids dee to the assumptions used 23 in the modal. 24 Since an exposure of .004 fibers per cc per 25 day is indistinguishable from background,, the values are BON-01348 73 t not unreasonable. z Xfe 1 also instructed to point out that if we 3 assume an exposure of five fibers per oe for two full 4 e i g h t hour day*, which is wall Abor e tha l e v e l found in S commercial use, the yearly rate becomes .1 fiber per co. 6 This yields a median time to tumor of 212 1/2 years, and 7 as asbestos induced cancer rate of 02 deaths. 8 We question whether these are the unreasonable 9 to risks referred to in the statute. How, at this point I will skip to page 12, 1 believe it is, and cover the rest It / of the technical matters. \2 X would like to start by pointing out certain 13 practical aspects of enforcement of the ban as proposed t4 in the federal Register, and X*a getting the impression !5 from what*s gone before the Commissioners may already be 16 well aware of this problem. 17 These particular questions were discussed at 18 great length, and unfortunately generally were not solved. 19 The recent meeting In Gathersburg, Maryland conducted b y 20 the National Bureau of Standards,and since several of your 21 staff members were there X will only touch upon them 22 briefly. 22 Since the promulgation of the OSHA asbestos 24 regulations in 1972 .there has been a continued debate on BON-01349 74 I what is asbestos, what is an &sif>astoe fiber- Asbestos, 2 \ whan narrowly defined in a way that will satisfy the most 3 prnoise mineraloigist, is ubiquitous in the atmosphere, 4 although generally it oocors at a very low but not aero 5 concentrations. 6 When the definition 1 broadened to include all 7 amphihole chips which are longer than five microns, and 8 have a length to diameter ratio greater than three, yon 9 will approach a condition aptly described by Or* Malcolm to Boss of the 0 S. Geological Survey at the KBS meeting of It shotting down tbs face of the earth* 12 Particles of this type are everywhere, end would 13 contaminate any' product containing a mineral. ?he SPA 14 faced this problem in 1973 and in writing emission IS standards for the spraying of asbestos containing products. 16 And decided to treat it by setting a one percent by weight 17 maximum limit 18 fheir reasoning was as follows ?he intent of 19 the one percent limit is to ban the use of materials- - 20 which contain significant quantities of asbestos but 21 allow the use of materials which would one, contain trace amounts of asbestos which occur in numerous natural sub stances and two, include very small quantities of asbestos, less than one percent added to enhance the material"a effectiveness BON -01350 75 In order for any action by the Commission to be workable and enforeaabia, we believe it is absolutely osoatial that you provide a definition of asbestos which states exactly what m in e r a l species and what form of these species are included, and specify what particle dimensions constitute an asbestos fiber. The present definition of the proposal could be applied to r&ck that covers most of the surface of the earth* Ih addition, an analytical procedure of the levels of impurities that ere acceptable, as measured by this procedure, must be specified. without these practical definitions, the ban is virtually universal and completely unworkable, and x will conclude this portion of my remarks there and i'll be happy to try to answer any questions in this area that you may have. C H M R M A H BTISGSOHa Are there any questions this time or do you want to reserve questions. He 's going to.come back. MR. Rh o d e s : i 'll be here. CEAZKKAN BYIKGrOMs Ea'll stay the whole thing but he wants to reserve the second part of his time for the end. C0MHISS10HBR PX77X.S: 2*d like to ask him one question. BON -01351 76 t Just to pick up oa the top of paga 6 of your 2 statement, and I 'd just like to ebook iato tha reasoning 3 of hov yon calculated that, on page 9 and 10 of your July 4 14th submission when yea went into nore detail about how 5 you arrived at that you bave an equation for time wait 6 averaging which essentially multiplies the amount of time 7 you epeat in one procedure, and then the measurement. 8 MR. RHODESi Ye*. 9 COMMISSIONER PXYXDBt You added to that the IO amount of time spent during another procedure, cleaning'up, 11 and so on, and then you divided by 480, whioh is the equiva 12 lent. 13 HR RHODES * Yes. 14 COMMISSIONER PITTSEj And you come out with a 15 number of .02'fibers per cubic centimeter, which you felt . 16 was greater than five microns, had X don't .understand why - 17 you used the number.aero for the greatest portion of tiae, 18 namely something on the order of 387 minutes. 19 " i 1 MR. PXTDX.E: gall, on that particular one the 20 man who was doing the sanding loft the area and went into 21 work, and he has no exposure other than background. 22 COMMISSIONER PlTThE:- j understand that, but I mean, I 23 got that from the text of it, and the only thing is, if 24 someone were living ia that house or were spending some time beyond that, the implication of this is that if BON -01352 77 somebody were to work in the room much longer, then you would have like a double or triple the exposure. MR. RHODES: There are data there, presented there, which indicate what the exposures were after the working period, in those rooms. They are area data, there is a complete survey of data throughout the entire day in three rooms in the house. COMMISSIONER PITTLEt I note that. HR. RHODES xt really would not make any measureable difference if you used 005 or 006 for that remainder either. COMMISSIONER PITIESt Hell, I don't know what you mean. Is.that what the measurements took place, if those are the measurements -- HR. RHODESx Measurements were taken* COMMISSIONER PISTDKt had they were 005. I got the impression -- MR. RHODESj Wait, I*a talking about after opera tions -- COMMISSIONER PITTLEi Yes. MR. RHODES: -- where dust is being generated. There is a complete series of measurements for the entire -- there were personal samples taken during the operation. COMMISSIONER PITTDK: Right. KR. RHODES * There were area camples in the reexs BON -01353 78 1 of the boos* three root of tbo house, for the full ay 2 How if you wish to recalculate it, and using the area, why 3 it* not bard to do -4 C0KMX8SX0XBR PXYttBl Ho, I -- 5 MS. RHODES -- and it will Bake very little dif 6 7 feronea. C0MMX88X0HXR V JT t X JS * Bat that loads to a sort of 8 a statement in your today's statonant, saying that eight 9 10 boor tin waited average exposaroe were calculated in two consoxer installations, and saying that the highest exposure 11 was .25 cubio esntiaerS' 12 MR. RHODESt For two days. 13 COMMXSSIOHBR PITTLEx For two days. 14 HR RHODES * Yes. 15 COMMISSIONER PltTLE* That is predicated on the 16 fact that you're arousing, X naan, X don't know that the 17 nuaber sight turn out to be just double. 18 MR. RHODSSi MO, the -- 19 COMMISSIONER PXYYDBt Do you think that's in 20 significant? 21 MR. RHODES: it's not a natter of thinking, you 22 can calculate it right fro the numbers -- . 23 COMMISSIONER PX5fTi,E: Well, I -- 24 MR. RHODES x -- and see what the diffezonesa - 25 are. BON-01354 79 J COHM3C3SIOKBR PXTOXiBi All right-- 2 3 HR. BB0DB8 Row# lot mo -- tho 2/lOths of a 4 fiber foe two day occurrod at tho largo# full room instal 5 lation. COHUX88XOKBR PITTLE*. *e*. 6 MR. HHOOB8J And those aro calculated completely 7 for tho -- 8 COHKZSS10HBR i m i iB oh# for the entire -- oh. 9 HR. RHODXSt -- entire day# with eon of the back 10 ground. Rev# we had a point three in the small operation H which actually occurred when there really waan't any asbestos 12 being used per ae# wasn't carrying out the old dry wall and 13 14 preping the old plaster# to install the speckle. K- X assure you X ' not playing any games-- 13 COMMXSSIOHBR PITTLEj Bo , no. I 'm trying to under- . 16 stand. 17 MR. R808S3; He are -- 18 CGMKXSSIOHBR PXTTI.B I 'm looking at the -- I'll 19 have to read today's submission over much more carefully. 20 I 'm responding to the sentence that you're talking about# 21 eight hour tine waited averages being .2 and I've looked at July 14th and it has eight hour sessions in which you come down to 102. Hayba there's a slip of a typo there, or that's a different figure -- MR. RHODES* X don't guarantee that there isn't# BON -01355 60 1 bat Z sa* bops there Hasn't. 2 COMMISSIONER PXffT&Bt And in the calculation of 3 4 the *02, ia your July t** you are saying, by golly, the parson wasn't there and therefore bo wasn't exposed 5 and the substitution in for a aero in Set th expos are to 8 tha conauaes or the person strikes i&a as very heavily 7 dependent on what he happens to be doing when he finishes 8 cleaning op. 9 Xf he leaves the roost, then the exposuro goes 10 down, which is natural to that person* But we were more t interested in assessing, Xwould want to read that as as* 12 seesnent of what the possibility of exposure is if the 13 person stayed in the soon longer* 14 MB. RHODES Che information is there. 15 COMMISSIONER PITTLSi Well, I ~ 16 MR. RHODESj We'll look at that if we want to 17 look -- see, you're talking -- you have a problem, and 18 if you're applying an o s h a formula, you're calculating eight 19 hour TWA'a of workers, because you want to relate that 20 to the OSBA compliance data. 21 And you know, we're -- wharo do you make your 22 adjustment? What I did was report everything, and the 23 information is there, and X think X am correct in saying 2A that those aunbars, after the operations are so small that 2f when you would put the in there, even though you multiply BON-01356 81 1 than by a lot of hours, a lot of minutes, they are very 2 i 3 low numbers* 4 JUDGE EXSThR* Hay X vitl pursue this with you 5 after. UK. RHODESI Good, I'd be glad to. 6 CSXIRKAif BYtHGTO Yes, Commissioner franklin, 7 COHMX8SIOH8R *R&HKLXltt X hear you quest ion lag 8 oux risk assessment, and it* not clear to me from your 9 statement exactly the magnitude of that, tfh&t I'd like 10 to do if ask you the sane question and ask the gentleman 11 fro* Bondex* and get your reaction to it. . 12 t To this statenent in our federal .Register notice 13 says, for purposes of this assessment the Commission 14 considered the use of patching compounds by a consumer 15 for sis hours a day, four times .a year, to be high, yet 16 reasonably foreseeable yearly exposure. 17 Row, what do you think of that statement? 18 HR. RHODES Well, the main point of the data 19 that 2 presented is that that's highly unlikely. 20 COKHXBSXOHBR FR&BKXXNi Too high, yes. 21 MR. RHODES The numbers that occur during the actual operation ware somewhere in the tenths to, 1 think we had a one or -- one and a quarter or one and a half, during the clean up operation, in the largo operation. ftnd the total for the man and his wife-to do all B O N -01357 82 1 a of the oanding a a rather largo recreation room, iaclad ing tht coiling, took something loss than two hours. 3 had the exposure for the remaining six hours 4 \ was -- X can't quota it S t tho top of my head, but it S was quit* lov. So that the numbers that were used in 6 that risk assessment, 2 think, are grossly high. a7 COMMISSIONER PR&MKhXNt All right, now -- MR. RHODESt Based on our consumer information 9 and commercial information. 10 COMMISSIONER ERASK&XMt X understand hat you're 11 saying about the sin hour time period when there as some 12 exposure, but what do you think about the assumption of 13 the four times a year type use? 14 MR. RHODESt In the installation of dry vail, you 15 start off by burying the tape-- no, if you're going to 16 use dry mix, you have to six up the dry mix. X don't think _ 17 very many consumers ueo tbs dry mix for big jobs, they'll 18 use the pails. 19 You bury the tape, and then come back over it 20 with a single coat, and while it's still wet, and you 21 let that dry, and all of these muds shrink, so they -- 2 don't know whether you're aware of it or not, but the boards'',are grooved where you buck the boards together, so there's a groove in there, a channel, that you're filling with the tape and with the *ua. BON-01358 83 1 So that; the first 'bop is to bury the tape and 2 [ cover it, and than yon cone back through and a day later 2 whan it's dry or has shrunk sar&a, and put another coat on, 4. when that dries you cone in and s a n d , and follow it with 5- a third eoat, and then yon touch up the third coat with a 6 | little sanding where you nay have not cleared tho edges 7 :1 a \ 9l to i properly. ~ so that in a installation of dry wall, according to the directions on the ho*, ...and according to the way the eonnaroial operators run, you really have two days, in 11 1 which you're actually doing sanding and raising the duet 12 I and cleaning up. ^ 13 1 So if you -- I think X would agree with Chainsan 14 j Syington that if you do that onoe or twice, during a life 15 :J time, that*a -- it's a reasonable estimate of how often 1'6:' j you're going to be Involved with the thing. 17 | Sow often do you finish a roon? * 18 COHHZSSZOSER FRAHXlilHi So what you're saying is 19 : 1 that our .assuaption here of four tines a year that one 20 i j would bo -- 21 1 HR. RHODES * I think it'fl -- J 22 j COKHZSSION3R FRAHKLIKi -- would be going through 23 .11 soma kind of -- O 24 !| HR. RHODES * I think it's high. 2S 1 COHMISSIOHBR FRAHKhlHx -- patching, would be too BON-01359 8 t HR. RHODES Yes. 2 You* talking primarily where yon're installing 3 a few panel of dry wall too. I don't think even year 4 staff believes that running a two foot crack with spackling 5 compound is going to generate any significant anovmt of 6 asbestos. 7 COMMISSIONER FRANKDXB< Ye. 8 MR. RHODES I think they made a statenent to that 9 effect, either in one of their briefing packages or in 10 ths Federal Register notice. 1! C0HHXS8I0R8R F8RMX&XM X have a couple nor 12 questions but on another subject, if yon want to follow ' 13 this up. 14 COHKXSSXOBBR RDSHNKR X would like to follow IS this up. 16 Do you have any explanation for the discrepancy 17 between the Rohl data on exposure and your own? 18 MR. RHODES X suspect possibly that they were 19 -- it was taken In *74 theraabouts. that they were using 20 one of the high asbestos content studs. Beyond that x -- 21 there'a not enough infosaation given in their discussion of it t nako any kind of -- COMMISSIONER K05HMER* What would have been the level of asbestos contained in the ataterials that you used or that are cited by and largo in the other -- BON-01360 85 1 MR. RH0DS8* They're probably -- z COMMISSIONER X0S8BBR -- instances hare. 3 MS. ttSODBSt The o b o noterial that we knot# what 4 was iti, ire had the formulation for, the manufacturer 5 supplied that. 6 C0MM2SSXQHBR JCOSBaSS Sea. a7 MB. BOOKS> That was 2.8 percent, on a dry basis. COMMISSIONS!) K0SKHSR: IS. to * 9 NR. RHODESt The first material, if you'll pardon the expression, was the U. 8* Gypsum that X bought off n the shelf with an asbestos label on it. When vt wore suppliers to then X believe they went around four or five 13 percent, but Xreally don't know, and it's, a dickens to 14 try .and analyse for asbestos in aud at that level. Xt's IS just a major analytical job, at least we're finding it that_ 1.6 way. 17 So X can only guess that it was four or five If pereent in the first test. 1 COMMISSIONER KtJSHSBRt Wh&t-- 2( H&. RHODES * One thing x would like to point out 21 la that the OSKA compliance people had pretty much the 21 'same numbers, the same range of numbere that we're getting. 2: C0HD1IS3X0N3R KUSHHBR: tea, that's evident from 2 the data shown here. But the difference then between the asbestos contest of the materials that you used, or war BON-01361 66 f used later, and the earlier materials that Kohl might z have used, would have been of the order of four or five. 3 Yhough probably not a high ae five because they didn't 4 go above 20 percent, asbestos, even years ago, did they? 5 HR RHODESi {Tell, the information X quoted was 6 given to me by one of the largo manufacturers, end a man 7 who'd been in it for many year. Xt was 10 to IS percent, 8 la the earlier. 9 COMMISSION. KUSBKB&* Okay. 10 MR. RHODES* Actually, it didn't drop too much 11 until the seventies, 12 C0HMXBSI0HBR KOSHWER* Yes, I guess Z have diffi 13 culty ascribiag the difference between Kohl's results and 14 yours, or these others which are differences of the order IS of perhaps 10 -- 16 HR. RH0D8* well -- 17 C0MHISSXOH8R XUSHHRRt -- to a difference in as18 hestoc concentration -- 19 MR. RHODESt Well, I don't want -- 20 COMXXSSXORBR KDSSHERt -- of two, or possibly 21 three 22 KR. RHODES* X didn't want to get too much into 23 -- X don't mean to >critique Kohl's .results, x present them 24 as they are. But X would.point out that they took a lot of BON -01362 87 I ana and one and a half minute sample8 and those are 2 notoriously variable. 3 COKKXBSXOBKR 598882 Tea, 4 aa. RBO&SSi And if yon look at the meaning values, 5 yon find that the naan volte for pole sanding, which is 6 the standard ooanerelal sanding procedure, is 10 fibers per 7 ee. 8 The moan valna for the hand sanding which is d 10 the way the eonstimers sand is five fibers per cc. so they*re not viewed in that manner they*re not that different II than the biggest numbers that we got around three, and 12 OSBA, three and a half, and OSBA around throe and a half. 13 And that was run, X understand, as a test, our 14 data were all obtained where we went into a commercial 15 location at the-- this was all done in cooperation with 16 dry wall contractors whore we went in and attached a 17 sample to the fella's back. Be didn't really know what t8 we were doing* 19 We were measuring the dust that he was breathing, 20 21 and then faded into the background so that he would -- told him to do just what be normally did. We emphasised 22 trying to get it, get results in the manner that the 23 men ware actually working. 24 The contractor just wanted to find out what kind 25 of dust levels they vers exposing people to- BON-01363 88 t C0KMXSSXOHSR KDSEHERt Than* you. 2 HR. RHODES Xt was UOt 8t up eg a S t. 3 CHAXRMRH BYIMQTOH* Any wore? 4 COKMXSSXOHSR PRAHKtiXtf *, ofi pa? 3 two ques 5 tions Tou males the tatenent that ve believe the total 6 of $5.5 million annual present a reasonably reliable 7 minimum estimate of direct eeonomio effects of the replace 8 ment of asbestos in the tape joint compounds'. 9 Annually for how long? What kind of a calculation W is this? I t h r . r h o d b s t That's a very good question. You've really get the 10,000 tons per year of asbestos is no -- is much higher than it's now being used, the panic button was pushed hors* in the last several nonthe, so that I doubt if really thors's anybody in the country -- X wouldn't say that. Any of the bigger -- X know none of the bigger manufacturers.are using asbestos. That was tha amount that was being used before .the serious inroads began with the concerns for OSHA, and the various -- the regulatory afforts that havo gone in. 1 would not mean to imply that the Consumer product Cosnission's action was going tc result in an effect of 10,000 tons a year of asbestos. However, the information on the cost per can BON-01364 09 t a v&a given to t., and I think was given to your consultants as representative of the kind of additional coot that 3 it was going to he to use adepolgitp, which is one of 4 the principal plaocrumts that wo era aware of* 5 NV v .. COMMXSSIOHBR Pft&MKlXS: Where did the 5.5 million 6 dollars annually oo&o from? 7 MR. KH0DB3-* That *s $1 Billion for the asbestos, 3 and the 25 coats a can for 18 111ion cans. 9 COMMISSIONER FRAHRX.XS Oh, X sea* 10 MS* RHODES* Has y arithmetic gons had on no? 11 COMMISSIONER PRAMKX.XB Moll, X -- X Still 12 ' don't understand* Are you just projecting this .forever? 13 MX. JCODESX MO, sight now -- 14 COMMISSIONS FRANKS,! s What -- 15 MS* RHODES: Right now i t 's costing, to the 16 best of our information, about a quarter of a can to 17 leave ho asbestos out and use a substitute. 18 COMMISSIONS PRARKXINi Okay, I see that. 19 MS. RHODES: And that's a direct effect across 20 the marketplace, of the substitution for the asbestos 21 development for the Rohl material costa for the asbestos 22 reformulations. COMMISSIONER PRANKDXM: Well, now, is that al ways going to be the ease or is -- should you not be assuming something else in here, either some kind of BON-01365 90 I economy seals or Come other factor that over a period of 2 time you know you'ro going to -- 3 HR. Rh o d e s j Actually again/ from what we've 4 been able to learn, the supply of sons of these Materials 5 la fairly limited. The etapolgite.has only, Z believe, 6 three produeeca,, 7 And a massive switch to that material is something 8 you should explore/ X believe, as to what -- 9. C0MKXSS2OBER PRABK&XHt To naan it could drive 10 the price of that naterial up? MR. RHODES* The price of etapolgite, quite 12 easily could go up, when it becomes a very popular asbestos 13 substitute. 1.4 COMMISSIONER PRAHKLIN: Okay. 15 MR. RHODESt Again X'n speculating, this is 16 secondhand, what X pick up around the' industry. 17 COMMISSIONER PRABKDIH: The other question X 18 have relates to the nest sentence where you make & comment 19 about the poor performance of raaay of the asbestos free 20 muds. What do you scan by that? 21 h r .Rh o d e s That subject baa been touched on a number of tines this morning. We are told by people in the' industry that the asbestos free muds vary very considerably in their comparative performance with the asbestos containing muds. BON-01366 93. There's a -- first of all there*a a tendency for the to be harder to draw in the sense that, you Know, you're puttie? then on with a Wide Knife and you slap it on, and bring it down. And if you want to go baeK, if it isn't exact -- First of all it's heavy to use, it feels heavy to the worker, and~i you want to go back and remake a pass over it and touoh it, it tends to be difficult to re work. The other areas, and 1 think your first speaker indicated that the formulation of a mud of this natgre, we call it a mud, is a fairly axacting balance of a lot of ingredients, and it has to be elisate adjusted, it haB to be in some areas adjusted to the way they're -- whether they're using primarily hand tools or aims tools. And it isn't all that easy to' take a product that's evolved over 30 or 40 years and come up with a material that performs in the same fashion* Have X answered your question or am X -- COMMISSIONER FBAHREIN Are you saying there really is consumer concern about -- MR. RHODES: Well, I would agree with the gantl< man speaking as a consumer now, the fella that does it once or twice in his life time ie not going to notice. It** the commercial people that can tell the difference. BON-01367 92 Our raaction, the reaction of the couple that did the full room was that a men will only do it once in ..his life'time, the next time he'll use paneling some** thing of that nature. COMMISSIONER FRANK&INs He'll let his wife do it or something, MR, RHODES* MOW it -- CHAIRMAN BTXHGTOH* First and last time. MR. RHODES* It is f o r a reasonably skilled con sumer, it's much easier to pnt in paneling. At least, that's my own personal consumer opinion, andhey're going to dry wall, those four by oight things oi a coiling are a real dog to handle, CHAIRMAN BTINGTON: For the record, you've ad dressed the one rea on poor performance that you mentioned, but you also made a statement that you were concerned about the utilisation of the term binding'with asbestos, and that that is improper. Mould you elaborate in terms of what would be properly be addressed as, for the record. MR. RHODES* Well, the binder, in normal termi nology, the binder is the glue, the plastic, I could use that term loosely, that glues the whole thing together. The asbestos is in there for a number of things, to make it easy to trowel, the description that I've given, the asbestc BON -01368 93 ? muds are slipperier and they move more easily under the 2 trowel. They also tend to feather better, and the asbestos 3 also reduces shrinkage, so that you don't gat cracking. 4 Row, Z dOh't Mean to Imply that all the non as 5 bestos ends have not solved these probleas, but they're 6 varying degrees, and it's quite a research program to come 7 up with a good asbestoB-frea mud. 8 So X was really merely making you aware of some 9 misuse of terminology in some of your reports. 10 CKAXRKAB BYINGTOH Z appreciate that, and that's 11 why X say for the record. 12 HR. RHODESt Does that answer your question? 13 CHAXRNAH BYIHGTOH: That's fine. Commissioner, do 14 you -- 15 XR, RHODSSi The asbestos also serves in the 16 northern' past of the country, the muds tend to freeze 17 out on the jobs, and warehouses and that sort of thing. 18 And one of the big problems they had to overcome on these 19 non asbestos muds is the one freeze ruins it, whereas 20 the asbestos muds, you oan stir them back together after a 21 freeze or two. 22 CHAXRMAH BYXMGTOHi Commissioner Kushner. 23 COMMISSIONER KUSHNER! Yes. Can you identify 24 the specific chemical or physical characteristics of 25 asbeBtos that would underlie its use In these compounds? BON - 01369 94 1 HR. RHODESt 7, I think I did that in the AX& 2 presentation, but I 'll be glad to hit it here, hit the 3 high spot. Asbestos ie made up of very, very tiny, hair 4 like fibers, and vhen yon nix then in the and they form a 5 loosely floeulated network that gives it body. 6 And when you trowel it or work it, the fibers 7 eone apart, they're so loosely attached, and the materiel 8 becomes thin, which allows you to move it with a trowel, 9 rework it, and feather it, and that sort of thing. 10 Oa the other hand, ae soon as you take the 11 energy off you stop poshing it with a trowel, but the 12 fibers rsflocalate again, and it stays in place, and it's 13 this property that people are trying to get without ata14 polgite, lastinite, and a number of these other fibrous t5 mineral species. 16 COMMISSIONER KtJSHNBR: t o o would look for sub- . _ 17 stitutes in other fibers -- 18 MR. RHODESi As far as X -- 19 COMMISSIONER KUSHNERi -- material. 20 MR. RHODES: -- am aware, the main candidates 21 for replacement are other fibrous minerals. Atapolgite 22 is, X think, one of the leading candidates. Xt's -- they 23 have fairly long needle-like crystals, look a little like a 24 pencil, pen, that general shape. 25 I thought of bringing along some photomicrographs, B O N -01370 95 but I did not I didn't really Kant to gat into tho substi 2 tutes area, that was not ay principal point. 3 COMMISSIONER JCOSHKSRt DO they toad to have the 4 *>* hind of properties as asbestos in terns of the fiber 5 bandies appearing to almost continuously be able to sub 6 divide it into finer and finer 7 MR. r b o d e s t The atapolgita -- 8 COMMISSIONER KDSQNER* -- fibers. 9 MR. RHODESt -- tends to be single crystals. 10 *bey normally do not -- they're in the fore in which they 11 were grown in nature there's no seal tendency for then 12 to split into finer and finer fibers. 13 COMMISSIONER PRANKLXN* Is there performance, of 14 the performance of the compound, is it similar to that 15 vhieh Contains asbestos? 16 MR. RHODES* X can only tell you what X hear in . 17 the field. 18 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: What do you hear? 19 MR. RHODESt It's not quite as -- it varies with 20 who manufactures it, but in general it does have some de 21 ficiencies. And I think the DSG gentleman indicated that 22 it has not bean totally accepted as equivalent. 23 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: So that your comments 24 about poor performance of non asbestos muds would apply. 25 MR. RHODES: To the commercial, commercial users. BON-01371 96 1 COMMISSIONER FRABXI.ni! To what we've just been 2 talking about, atapolgite. 3 MR RHODESt As far as X know -- 4 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIH Containing -~ 5 HR. RHODES i -- this is -- we have looked at some of these The answer is yes, the atapolgite, although 6 7 there -- X will say-that X think there is one that comes pretty close. They've used some other things -- 8 9 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN To be equivalent in per formance. 10 MR. RHODESt To be equivalent, yes. 11 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN* The rest isn't. 12 13 MR. RHODES * It varies quite a bit. Again, as 14 the OSG speaker indicated, developing a new compound with 13 -- that has to meet these 14, 15 criteria, is a major re 16 search project. 17 The companies which manufacture these compounds 18 have no incentive to; use asbestos, other than performance 19 in the marketplace. Host of then would rather not have to have all tha control equipment in their plants, they'd 20 rather get rid of the problen if they could find an easy 21 22 way to do. it. And they've been working on it since-- acme of 23 them since 1970, or thereabouts, and they're just beginning 24 to see the results new. 25 BON -01372 97 1 COMMISSIONER FKANXLXV* This in curious. Maybe z you and X are hearing the discussion differently, but X 3 thought the sum frost 08 Gypsum wts coning down and saying 4 he thinks that the substitutes ara going to bn okay, there 5 is a little resistance, but he thinks the marketplace is 6 accepting then. 7 and X hear you saying something different, X 8 think <** 0 MR. RH0D8St Well, the aarketpiace may have no 10 choice, the way thing are going. 11 COMMISSION] FRAHXX.XNt Okay. 12 MR, RBODS8, But X vao talking to a competitive 13 manufacturer on Friday, and he indicated that, yes, we can 14 go with one, w e rve got one that we think is better than 15 aoae that have been discussed here.. But we're not happy 16 with it as an.equivalent replacement. 17 COMMISSIONER PRAHK&XNt Thank you. 18 CHAIRMAN BTINGTON Commissioner Pittle. t9 COMMISSIONER PITTAS, 79. Just So that X make 20 sure that I 'll be reading the right things over lunch, 21 the July 14th submission by you has dealt with some experi 22 ments run on June 21, 22. That is the experiment that you 23 are reporting on the top of page 6, the eight hour time 24 waited average during exposure? 25 BON - 01373 98 MR. RHODESt The top of page 6. COMMISSIONER PITTES Si* of your statement. HR. RHODESi NO. COMMISSIONER PITT1E* That's not the July 14th -- MR. RHODES t Me have a inos installed a full room and that report is being frantically written right now to submit before the August 29th deadline. COMMXSSXOMBR R I M E S * You're just giving me tine to enjoy ay lunch. MR. RHODES t But these two -- as you night expect, we did a whole room. Me got some higher TKA's. COMMXSSXOMBR PXTTLBs Yea. MR. RHODESt And those are the -- COMMISSIONER PXTTLE* Then when we cone back x will be sure that 1*11 still have the same questions about this raport as to why there are reroe but let *s nova on to the one on the thing about seae of the 'testing proce dures this night he the right tiae to answer the guee tions The people who were involved in this experiment, were they your employees, or were they a testing group? MR..RHODES t One of then was myself. X ran it in my own basement. The other is a man and his wife who ars employed as guests. COMMISSIONER P IT IE S t D id they have any -- d id yo BON -01374 99 t or they have any sort of special or unusual ventillation 2 3 equipment in their house aft attic fan or ~ 4 M2 * RHODES * X did not have any, nor did they. COMMISSIONER WJS8HBR Is that the recommended 5 way to use that, X mean, are there any special pre nations 6 7 to taka when you -- MR. RHODESa Hell, X* oorry X didn't bring a 8 hundh of pictures, it's dustier than the dickens. The 9 operation is - the main ingredient in the mud ia limestone, 10 and it's heavy* 11 12 c o m m i s s i o n e r nosaHER, I've used it mora than 13 once in my life -- MR. r h o d b b t You know, you sand it and it's 14 dustier than daylights. 15 COMMISSIONER KUSHHKRs Yes. 16 MR. RHODESt But they did not have any, and X 17 `did not have any in the way of special ventillation. 18 COMMISSIONER KUSHNERi When you made some .of your 19 measurements, you, at least on the July 14th report, you 20 apparently measured thorn by using two different techniques. 21 MR. RHODES j He measured them primarily by the 22 prescribed m x o s h -o s h a -- 23 COMMISSIONER KUSEMBR, OSHA, 24 MR. RHODES, ~~ standard. 25 COMMISSIONER K0SHNER: T h a t 's th e o p t i c a l BON - 01375 100 1 canning 2 NR. RHODES< Optical material. Ke also examined 3 than with a technique we're working on under the scanning 4 electron microscope 5 COMMISSIONER KOSBNXRt Z see. 6 K&. RHODES1 That was primarily to satisfy our' 7 selves that there weren't a lot of little fibers that we 8 were Biasing under the optical because X was afraid some 9 body would ash that question to COHNISSIONER KOSHHERi Well, let mo try to asR.lt It if I've got this thing lined up right. Your microscope 12 had a magnification of, it eould have gone ell the. way up 13 to 25,000. !4 HR. RHODESi Yes, well, the scanning scope could 15 have gone up to about 20,000, without losing resolution -- COMMISSIONER KOSRNJERt Z flea. HR. RHODES t -- on this particular samples. Working off those filters in a seanning scope-is a technique in itself. C0MKXS8XONSR KUSBBBR: Is it more difficult to do it, lot's say, vith that piece of equipment with 20,000ths opposed to 10,000ths? MR. RHODES: You lose field area. See, the higher your magnification, the smaller area you're looking at. COMMISSIONER 1WSHHER: R i g h t . BON-01376 101 1 HR . RHODES And the longer you have to scan to -- 2 COMMXS8XOKBR PXTTXJS* To get the same area. 3 MR. RHODES -- to satify yourself that you've 4 covered enough area so you've got some sort of a repre 5 sentative sample* 6 COMMISSIONER PXTTXAt Well, the reason I'm asking* 7 of course, is t h a t n was struck by the fact that you* in- 8 comparing some of the samples, you tried to add some infor 9 mation about this controversy about what's, the best way to 10 maasure this. 11 HR. RHODES Ye*. 12 COMMISSIONER PXTT1B Material* that you made most 13 of those down at the lower resolution areas., and X wondered 14 why you didn't try'it from maximum resolution. You're 15 telling me now it's a matter of time to get the feel. 16 HR. RHODES Well* you've got to look at enough 17 fields so you feel you've got a representative area* 18 The bigger you go the more fields you've got to look at. 19 COMMISSIONER PXTTX.S 70S. 20 HR* RHODES And this whole question of scanning 21 in transmission scopes got beaten around for about three 22 days* last month. 23 COMMISSIONER PXTTtH* Wall -- 24 MR. RHODES And it's far from being a routine 25 procedure. BON -01377 I 102 I ' COMMISSXOHBR. F15?T*81 that ha one of. 2 the seasons why there is this vase difference, possible 3 -J difference, in the date between Rohl and yourself and 4 OSHA. 5 MR. RHODES * Rohl was using -- the data, the Rohl 6 data that I have presented by the sane OSHA technique. 7 COHMISSIORBR PITTAS* the sane OSHA technique, 8 they did not use any sort of scanning .-- 9 HR. RHODES* Ho. bet tun make it clear, all of 10 the fiber count data that we have reported has been by the 11 prescribed OSHA -- * 12 13 COMMISSIONER PITTLB* Oh. MR. Rh o de s * ~ HXOSH techniques, and Rohl' data 14 are by the saae technique* 15 COMMISSIONER PXTTAB* All right. 16 MR.. RHODESi The looking, and I will comment that 17 there's a lot of problems with the OSBA-HZOSH optical 18 fiber counting technique. There's a -- the AqbestoB 19 Information Association has got a big, round robin that 20 they're trying to get off the ground, and it's a major 21 problem with enforcement, not so much in the crysatile J 22 asbestos Industry, but when you get over into talc and 23 impurities. 0 24 i It isn't all thathard to got a pretty good ( i 2$ ceeegttition of eryaatila, optically, a reasonable percentage j BON -01378 ' 103 1 of the tin'. But whtti you start throwing the acphabol 2 chips in there it beooaea a very difficult problem to 3 decide is it an aaphabol or isn't it. 4 There's really no good way until you get into 5 some fairly involved petrographic, mioroecope techniques, 6 COMMISSIONER PITTX.B Well, I oan't put my finger 7 on the exaat location, but apparently Dr* selikoff has 3 written somewhere in an article or a report that he feels 9 that you need to multiply 100 to 300 as a nullifying factor to to sort of tafee the optical scanning data and make it match 11 with the microscopic date* 12 And you address that in your report by saying 13 that you dida't think it was that great of a multiplicity. 14 Do you have any -- 15 MR. RHODESt Well, in 16 COMMISSIONER PXTTtBi -- feel for the number? 17 MR. RHODESt Well, the thing you want to recog 18 nise is that I think I've seen that rofarenca. You're 19 talking about in one case using raw asbestos fiber, 100 20 percent asbestos fiber, shaking it up, and you can get a 21 whole wide range of fiber sires. In these sanding samples, the only thing you're seeing is what you break loose out of the binder. And the littlier ones, I suspect, are very small fibrils, are much harder to break out tban the longer fibers. BON -01379 104 1 How, wo wont around with Slikoff on this, on 2 praying work, and X did the sane sort of thing, and could 3 not find, at least in our techniques, any great multiplicity 4 of very fine fibers. 5 How, X don't say they don't exist is the raw 6 asbestos, than these Materials where you've -- 7 COHHXRSIOlBR PITThEl Oh. 8 KR. RHODES -- nixed then with a binder and re 9 leased then by sanding. It's a -- as far as ve can -- 10 COHMXSSXOHBR PZTTlSt The ncasurenent technique 11 is highly sensitive to the naterial that you're neaauring 12 in terns of -- 13 NR. RBOOSSt Ho, X think what's there is highly 14 sensitive to the history of the naterial you're looking at, IS' it's a little bit different point of view. 16 COMMXSSXOHBR PlTTlBi Hell, X think his numbers 17 were sonething like a multiplicity anywhere from 200 to 18 1000, and you said yon didn't think it was quite that high. 19 NR. RHODES I well, if you'll look at the NXOSH 20 criteria document, the recent one on the appropriate levels, 21 they review sons conversion factors froa nanagrans to 22 fibers longer than five microns, and the number -- their 23 conclusion is that there is no consistent conversion fac 24 tor. 25 COMMISSIONER P IT TLB : O k a y. D id - - I t h in k I want BON -01380 10$ 1 to save this until atat 1 read the report -- 2 HR. RHODESt Okay. 3 COMMISSIONER PXYTL* -- because there are still 4 sees things that are os the surface out here like, for 5 exaaple, the substitute Material, is that ae likely to 6 be airborne or free fora as the present asbestos? 7 In other words, it any natch up with all the other 8 14 qualities and Z don't want it to match up with 15 quali 9 10 ty 4 namely causing soae sort of a respiral disease; HR. RHODES 1 don't really have enough back 11. ground in that area. Soae of theee materials tend to be 12 quite dusty. 13 MR. PXTXbXt. Are there any toxi -- long term, 14 chronic studies going on on the -- at least the one that IS you've Mentioned, atapolgite. 16 MR. RHODES I believe MXOSH has got some things - 17 going. You have to understand basically we're in the 18 asbestos business. 19 COMMISSIONER PITTDBt X understand. 20 MR. RHODES t And none of these areas of toxi 21 cology for substitutes we run Into talking to people, but 22 we -- 23 COMMISSIONER PITTLE* Are you aware, has any 24 body mentioned that they're doing any -- 25 MR. RHODES; I know that NXOSH has a couple of BON -01381 i I 106 1 stadia* going on atapolgit*. What they found, I couldn't 2 tall you. 3 John Dement probably is a good contact there, 4 I in Cincinnati* 1 have enough trouble following the ones j 5 that are directly involved. 6 COHHX88XOHBR PXT*hH Very helpful* 7 CHAIRMAN "BTIHGT6Ht Okay, wall the staff and 8 son* of the other comiss loners also nay have some 8 additional questions, as you complete your second portion. 10 We'll save for that. n There was one question that was submitted, that I 12 bring up now, and that is, has Carbide done any morbidity 13 or morbidity studies on the dry wall workers exposed . 14 in the first 30 years or so? 15. MR. RHODESt Bo, wo have not. 16 CHAIRMAN BYXNGTON Okay* 17 MR. RHODES t We've only been involved for 10 or 18 12 years here, really, on any kind of a sealo. 19 CHAIRMAN HYINGVON< Would you be willing to 20 provide to our staff a list of those people who aako tape 21 3oint compounds that you sell asbestos to? 22 MR. RHODES i Our policy in the past has been 23 that we did not give that kind of information, but I think 2A at this point in time the answer, I can give you right off the top of my head, there aren't any. BON - 01382 i 107 1 CHAIRHRB BYIHGXOH* Okay. 2 MR. RHODESi That's off the top of wy head, i'll 3 heck that but X think -- 4 CHAXRKAS 8YXHGTOHt Because you don't'think you're 5 selling to anybody. 6 HR. RHODES Within the last week or so, the last ; 7 of the Mohicans, decided he wouldn't dare take a chance on 8 it any sore, so -- 9 CRAXRKAH YIHCTOH* okay. Thank you, we'll call 10 you baek here shortly. It MR. RHODESt Okay, thank you. 12 CBRXRKRK BTXRGTOBt The nest person is Svedeen 13 Gibbons of the natural Resources Defense Council. 14 Tee, Mies Gibbons, do you have a copy of your 15 statement? !6 MS. GXBBOHSt X'a sorry,it'o not prepared in 17 final fora, yet, and X ean subait one later this afternoon. 18 CBAXRKRB BYXBGTON Okay. 19 MS. GXBBOHSt My nane is Svedeen Gibbons, X aa 20 an attorney with the natural Resources Defense Council, and 21 X thank you for the opportunity to speak today on the 22 recently published proposed rules to ban consumer patching 23 compounds containing respirable free form asbestos. 24 On duly ISth, 1976, HRDC filed a petition with 25 CPSC requesting it to issue an order declaring consumer - BON-01383 i 1 108 I i I I patching compounds containing asbestos to be banned h&zar- < 2 dons substances under the Federal Ha*arclous Substances Act. 3 4 The Commission granted this petition on April 28th 1977 but has proposed to ben these products under 5 Section 8 of the Consnner Product Safety Act, I would 6 like to speak today on four issues concerning proposed rule- 7 asking aanely the evidence regarding the unreasonableness 8 of injury to eoasuaers# prevented by esbestoo-containing 9 patching compounds the environmental husardous associated 10 with asbestos substitutes the effective dete of the pro 11 posed regulations and the wording of the proposed ban. 12 n r d c believes that the Connisaloa has correctly 13 determined that asbestos containing patching compounds 14 present an unreasonable risk of injury to consumers. 15 This finding was based on e review of experimental data 16 and human experience information on exposure to asbestos. 17 The Commission has calculated an assessment 18 on the risk of consumer exposure on the basis of data by 19 Dr kohl and his colleague's at the Mount s i n a i r School of 20 Medicine* 21 D r. K ohl's work on exposure to asbestos in the 22 use o f consumer sp e c k lin g p a tc h in g and ta p in g compounds 23 was c it e d by nrdc in o u r p e t it io n to. t h is com m ission. 24 This testimony was drafted before the representative 25 from Union Carbide spoke BON - 01384 109 I The result* of the five day study of consumer 2 exposure to asbestos in the speckling and dry trail renova 3 tion operation This, X understand, is different froa the 4 information which they suaaarise in their statement today* 5 hut in this earlier experiment, they found that 6 exposure level to the consumer of asbestos fibers longer 7 then five microns did not exceed at any tiae 0.5 fibers 8 per eubie centlaster 9 This study contrasts with results obtained: by to Or. kohl who found that amounts of asbestos longer than 11 five mierons in the air during and after dry wail construc 12 tion operations, with asbestos containing patching com 13 pounds, ranged from 2.5 to 19.8 fibers per millimeter, 14 which is the same measurement as cubic centimeter, and 15 that fiber counts during mixing of the patching compounds 16 ranged from 35*4' to 39.0 fibers per milliliter. 17 Obviously the results from these two studies are 18 widely disparate, and ve haHave that they are so because 19 of at least two differences in technique used by Union 20 Carbide 21 The following Information, which I 'm going to 22 summarise, la obtained through a telephone conversation 23 with one of or. kohl's colleagues at Mount Sinai School of 24 Medioine, and X don't profess to be an expert in chemical 25 engineering, in chemistry. BON -01385 110 1 First* tli* Onion Carbide study does not reveal z that the patching compound was analysed to determine that it 3 did in fact contain asbestos, or how ouch asbestos it did 4 contain. S his nust be done by X-ray defraction, evidently 6 it's a very complex, analytical technique, and the peaks 7 that yon see for asbestoe are very similar to peaks that 8 you see for ahloride. And chloride is found in asbestos 9 containing compound. t JO second, end oost inportantly, it appears that 11. Onion Carbide did not use the MXOSH counting technique. 12- he MXOSH technique dietatee that any fiber longer than 13 five niorone, and in a three to one length to disaster' 14 ratio, is counted. 15 Onion Carbide only counted cryatile fibers. 1.6 It is evidently extremely difficult to identify which 17 fibers are crysatile and which are not, even with a 18 polarising microscope, which is presumably the type of 19 instrument that would be used if you wanted to attempt 20 the experiment. 21 his is precisely why the HXOSR counting tech 22 nique is widely used. Onion Carbide did not use a 23 polarising microscope in attempting to deteraine which 24 fibers were asbestos. 25 Dr. Rohl's workers would like to know how they BON-01386 XII 1 did determine it Onion Carbide also did not state how z nany fibers were collected and determined to not be erysa- 3 tile. This might be very interesting information. 4 Finally, as Commissioner Pittle brought out, the 5 time waited average of .2 fibers par milliliter was based 6 on an occupational standard type technique formula and 7 it*s not relevant Co consumer situations. 8 Onion Cariblde measured the average eight hour 9 exposure to the person who did the job and by figuring 10 in the fact that he ves out of the house for over six n boors. \z Sven if we assume that Onion Carbide sampling 13 lsvsls are correct, which we don't believe is true, the 14 fibers preseat an unreasonable risk to health. Xf we 15 calculate the time waited average, assuming a consumer 16 remains in the home, for the total eight hours, we arrive 17 at .03 to .1 fibers per milliliter. 18 If the consumer is reasonably activs during this 19 eight hour period, be will.breathe in a total of four 20 cubic meters of air, or 120,000 to 400,00.0 asbsstos fibers 21 longer than five microns. 22 Xn addition, for each five micron asbestos 23 fiber, there are conservatively speaking 50 to 100 times 24 as many smaller fibers. 25 This means that the consumer would breathe in BON -01387 112 1 an additional 12 Billion to 40 alllion smaller asbestos 2 fibers, 3 4 W* believe that if the Coamission determines not to proceed with the rulemaking on the basis of or. Rohl *s 5 study because of the union Carbide study that they wait 6 7 to neJce that deeision until onion Carbide's study is pub lished , and there's sufficient tine for critical scientific 8 review of it, 9 to I 'n not advocating that you delay in promulgating the ban. Industry affected by the proposed regulation has 11 expressed concern that other fibrous, minerals substitutes 12 for asbestos, such as, well, lastinite, atappltita clay, 13 and fibrous tale, may presont adverse environmental health 14 effects. 15 Although this issue is significant in itself, 16 it is net particularly relevant to this rulemaking, 17 do evidence has been presented which shows that such a 18 fibrous aluesal must be substituted for asbestos in patching 19 compounds. 20 On the oontrary, it is clear that effective 21 patching compounds need not contain fibrous minerals. 22 Industry has enumerated the properties of asbestos which 23 it considers to be the most valuable In the preparation of 24 patching compounds. 25 These include good absorption qualities, high BON-01388 113 t resistance to eleotricity, fir and alkaline substances* 2 3 lew magnetic permeability roughness of fiber low density and non relative inpermsabillty and relative impermeability 4 to fungus Mildew and vapor S However the only relevance of these characteris 6 7 tics of asbestos to this rulesaking proceeding is that they eontribute to an ovarall effect of final patching 8 compounds. That is a product which is easily applied 9 to workable and durable* What sust he stressed is that neither asbestos 11 nor other fibrous minerals are necessary to achieve an 12 effeetlva patching compound. Patching compounds already 13 14 mist which do not contain theeo minerals and which are - as affective aa asbestos containing products 15 Of the 15 patahing compounds sold in retail out 16 lets sampled by Dr* boh] and his colleagues five were 17 found to contain asbestos five were found to contain a 18 plating mineral such as mica kalinite and pyrofilite 19 which perform the ease functions as asbestos* 20 And five were found to contain neither fibers 21 nor plating minerals most probably they contained calcium 22 carbonate* At least one of the latter products was 23 usad by one of the investigators and found to be totally 24 effective. 25 BON-01389 114 i Thu , while the Commission should study the 2 possible adverse environmental health effects posed by 3 other fibrous Minerals to consumer, it should not refrain . 4 fro* promulgating the proposed regulations in final fora 5 as soon as possible* 6 Zt is* of eourse hoped* that industry will act 7 responsibly and not substitute suspect fibrous Minerals 8 tor asbestos in their reforestation of asbestos containing 9 patching eoaponnds. 10 The Connlesion has the authority to set tho 11 effeetlvo date of the proposed regulation* the proposed 12 ben on patching coapcunds containing asbestos* as the 13 dats of pronulgatlon of the final regulation rather than 14 30 days later as no proposed* if the Connission determines 15 immediate effectiveness is ithin the public interest. 16 And z do see, believe* that such a finding is 17 supported by the evidence already before the Commission. 18 So evidence has bean presented hiah shows that the 19 risk to an individual -- sorry* in fact, the Commission 20 has already determined to promulgate a ban effective on 21 final publication on fireplace logs and ash containing 22 asbestos 23 An immediate ban on patching compounds is no 24 lees in the public interest. Ho evidence has been ^present 25 ed which shows that the risk to an individual household BON -01390 115 1 from use of an asbestos containing patching compound in 2 the normal repair operation is an? Xaas than that from 3 exposure to firtplaoe logs and ash* 4 In fact, nor households usa# most likely, 5 patohing compounds# than firoplaca log and ash. tvary 6 day*s delay of the ban exposes nose consonar* to an un 7 reasonable risk of injury. 8 The Coanisaion itself has estimated that the 9 increased riek of death fron respiratory cancer induced 10 yearly is between 10 and 2#000 per Million. Xn addition# 11 these substances present other risk of injury to health. 12 Consumers will not suffer in any way fron an 13 immediate ban because alternative products perforaing the sane function are presently on the market at a price comparable to. asbestos containing patching compounds.( She impact on the asbestos industry from the ban 30 days .._ earlier than proposed trill be relatively insignificant. The industry has stated that the amount of asbestos sold for patohing compounds is 10#000 tons# and that this is a high figure at this point# and- this amount is only one percent of total aBbestos sale. assuming equal amounts are sold each month# only one-~tvelfth of a percent# of the total asbestos market will be affected by a ban 30 days earlier than proposed. BON - 01391 116 1 JU we taacrd today, some patching manufacturera 2 have switched to non shestos formulations, thus in the 3 period during hioh the Commission ha* worked on this ban, 4 manufacturers hare eliminated much of their potential 5 adverse economic impact. 6 The point of this rulamaking is to protect the 7 health of consumers #-not to protect manufacturers from 8 any adverse economic impact. Sheet are always costs and 9 benefits to regulation. This is a relatively small cost to associated with the ban affective upon final promulgation. 1! However in tha alternative, should the Com 12 mission not make tha final baa immediately effective, it 13 should prohibit uanufacturera of asbestos containing t4 patching compounds from stockpiling these products. 15 fhe Commission has authorised' to issue such a 16 ruling under Section 9D2 of tha Consumer Product Safety 17 Aot. Such a rule would prohibit the manufacturer or 18 importation of those products between the date of promul 19 gation of the ben and its effective date, at a rate whiah 20 is significantly greater than the rate a.t which the 21 product was produced or imported during a base period 22 prior to promulgation of the ban. 23 Such a rule is in the public interest and 24 will not adversely affect manufacturers who are, of 25 course# oxpectad not to increase manufacture of these BON -01392 117 1 products during the period before tb affective date of the 2 bon* 3 finally, X would like to request cover! changes 4 to the wording of tbe proposed regulation to bettor reflect 5 the intent of the ben* la the proposed paragraph 1104.1k/ 6 which describes the scope and application of the ban, in 7 the fifth lina of the paragraph the words and designed for 8 use are presently there. 9 we request that these words he deleted, with 10 this deletion the paragraph will read, Consuaor Product It Safety Conaioaioa declares that consumer patching compounds 12 containing respirable, free form asbestos in such a manner 13 that asbestos fibers can become air borne under reasonably 14 foreseeable conditions of use, are banned hasardous products. 15 The words "and designed for tfse* are unnecessary 16 and cause some confusion la the paragraph as it presently 17 reads. la addition, the definition of free form asbestos 18 in proposed paragraph, section 1304.3 presently reads -- 1? shall Z read it for the record *>* are you following it on 20 your paper? 21 COMMISSIONER PRABKlIHi Repeat where you are, 22 again. MS. g i bb o u s * okay, proposed paragraph 1304.3C, free form asbestos. BON-01393 1 118 CHAXBKA BYlBGTOHt All right, why don't you 2 indicate, like yon did the last time, what change you'd 3 like and then read it as it vaa changed 4 HSo GIBBOUS1 Okay. HBOC would like to see S the words in the fourth line those fro which fibers 6 deleted, and that the words of the product inserted at 7 the end, of the definition 8 The definition would then read, free form asbes 9 tos is that which is not bound, woven, or otherwise locked 10 in to a product by resins or other bonding agents, or 11 which can readily become airborne with any reasonably 12 foreseeable use of the product* 13 Finally, in paragraph 1304.4, NRDC believes that 14 hasardous which arise from asbestos fibers, are not limited 15 to lung cancer and mesatheliona, and tberefore would 16 propose that the paragraph be rephrased to read, on the 17. basis that air borne asbestos fibers present hasardous, 18. including lung cancer and aesathelioaa to the public, 19 consumer patching compounds containing respirable free 20, fora asbestos are banned hasardous produets. 21 I 've appreciated this opportunity to present 22 SRDC'o views on the proposed ban, and thank you 23 CBAXKMAK BYISGTOH All right, first of all, 24 though, by the end of the day you will have a full copy 25 of what was on. BON -01394 119 1 MS GIBBOUSt Right. 2 CHAIRMAN BYINGTOHt We also have a copy of the 3 4 transcript and will make sore that tho staff then has a copy of your proposed ohangsa as well. 5 Also I bare attempted to stake a couple of notes 6 sinoe we don't have a eopy of sons of the concerns you 7 had on the onion Carbide tests. But I would -prefer that 9 rather -- instead of using ny note if i t 's possible for 9 you to outline specifically what your concerns were, that to they had not *tasted for asbestos in the compound and H not use a SXOSH testing technique, they did not use a 12 polarised microscope * 13 MS. GIBBONS Right. 14 CHAIRMAN b y XHGTOH* And X think there were maybe 15 even one or two other ones that Z might have missed. 16 MS. GIBBOUSt True. 17 CHAIRMAN BYXSGTOH If VQ could have those, since IB. the. Onion Carbide representative will be back with us, we.might try and deal with it directly and let them comment if-they would on any of those things that you've raised. So -- MS. GXBBOKSt Sure. Did you want that in writing or would you -- CHAIRMAN BYXNGYOH* If you'd just give me a written -- BON -01395 120 MS. GIBBOUSt -- like me to stats It now? CH&XRKAM BYtUGSOHi MO if yon* just give me your written note with the four or five questions, or whatever the number of then ere, then we would proceed from there. And one of then,! think -- one or two of then he may have commented on, let's -- you know, let's comment on it, and again, if he feels it's necessary that the record -- MS. GXBBOHSl Fine. CHAZKKAU BTZVGTOMt Commissioner Pittie. C0MMISSI0HBR PlTIhBi It night he helpful if you had an eetinate of how you think the results would have been changed. Xt would be only a guess any way because you don't have the quantitative data that -- MS. GXBBOHS* Right. C0KHX88X0MKR PlTThB* My question is -- MS. GXBBOHS; X don't think that -- Or. Hicholson, who gave no this data, and he didn't have enough informa tion to know how much the results would have been changed. CHAXRHAH BTXHG70Mi Okay. C0MXX8SX0HB& PRABICBIB1 X have a -- do you have any other infornation about consumer acceptability of sub stitute compounds containing no free form asbestos? MS.GXBBOHS; X have oy own experience, and -- COHMISSXOKBR PRAHKLIH: Well, are Other people relating their ova experiences, but go ahead. BON-01396 121 MS. GIBBONS* X used a patching eonped feaF* that I didn't Know that it contained asbestos# ox didn't contain ashestoe# and found oat later that it did not contain asbestos * It van fine# it did the job. a terrible job. COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN* But you're not attribute ' ing that to the product# is that what you're saying? It worked# in other words# it worked well enough for you. MS. GIBBONSt the crack is no longer in the wall, hr. Nicholson uses one product# which does not oontain either asbeetoe or plating aineral# end uses it frequently# and finds it to bs totally effective ae their sanples. I.would inagine that consumers don't know the difference. COMMISSIONER PRANKlilRi that seons to be what s o m other people have said this morning too. the words that you wanted to have dropped out of 1304.in -- M 8 . GIBBONS t Yes. COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN* -- and designed for use. MS. GIBBONS Yes. c o m m i s s i o n e r FRANKLIN: Could you expand on your reasoning there a little bit uore. MS. GIBBONS> As it reads now we're talking about -- the CoBaissiou talks about patching compounds# which BON-01397 122 1 contain asbestos, cod which are designed Cor use in a 2 manner such that asbestos fibers can become airborne under 3 reasonably foreseeable conditions of use. 4 it is perhaps an *-- arguably, a contradiction 5 between designed for use being one standard and reasonably 6 foreseeable conditions of use being a standard by which 7 a to judge whether this is a banned hazardous product C0MMXS3XOMSR rRASnU,* X SOS. 9 8 GIBBOUS i we think that the intent of the 10 rulemaking is that products containing asbestos from which !1 asbestos fibers are released during reasonably foreseeable 12 conditions tinder reasonably foreseeable conditions of 13 use# and that whether it's designed for use in that way w 14 is irrelevant. 15 C0HMIS8I0BBR *RAtlKX.XHi Okay# thank you. 16 CHAIRMAN BVXHGTOHt X thank you very much. 17 Wee there a question* 18 Xt happens at the moment to be about 20 minutes 19 to ItOO. Xt*s ay understanding that Peter Simpson and Robert 20 Rauch really want to only address the emberiaing material, 21 la that correct. Hr. Rauch X see nodding. Hr. Simpson 22 hero. 23 If the Commission has no objection, and since we 24 are going to have to coma back, can we take those two 25 people out of order right now so they could be done, BON -01398 123 1 and than the rest of the people who will want to then 2 Hr. Castlemon. And then we have Mr. Rhodes to acme bach 3 again. 4 8o vbah we eoold do is to tafce Hr. sinpson. and 3 Mr. Ranch now. and possibly do that in the next 20.ninutes 6 or so. take a break for approximately one hour, and we *11 7 resume at 2 iQO o'clock, and Mr. Caetleman could give his 8 consents and Kr. Rhodes could wrap op and we could attempt * 9 to he done within an hour or so. 10 Xs that agreeable? Okay. First of all. Hr. 11 Sinpson. 12 MS. SIMPSOH t X*m Pater Sinpson and X*n with 13 Rustic Crafts Conpany. and wa're manufacturers of electric 14 artificial fireplaoes and electric logs. And we're respond* 15 lag to the news release and the accompanying consumer 16 alert of July the 21st, and the proposed rulemaking concern* - 17 ing respirable, free fora asboatoe. 18 He are most distressed at the wording used in 19 all three eases as the wording implies that all artificial 20 fireplaoes and all artifical logs are harmful. And the 21 effect of this wording is not only understandable to the consumer concern, but an actual stopping of consumer buying * The repeated reference to artificial logs and artificial fireplaces without specific exclusion of BON-01399 12-4 1 2 electric fireplaces and electric logs tea alarmed the cons osier Who already owns oar products , and is causing the 3. prospective buyer to decide gainst buying 4 We've manufactured electric/ artificial fire 5 places and logs for over 35 years/ and feel that we have 6 a safe, sensible, energy saving alternative to gas logs 7 and inefficient fireplaces. 3 The electrically operated, fire simulator in our 9 log creates a very realistic burning effeat. a portion of 10 our electric logs and a portion of our fireplaces are . tl decorated with an artificial ash bod made of vermiculite, 12 a product which we are told is totally inert, inorganic 13 and non flammable and which your office has indicated is 14 completely safe and acceptable. 15 nevertheless, since a nows release of July the 16 21st, we have received numerous calls from the media, from 17 our individual retailers, and from consumers expressing 18 concern over our products. 19 Wo feel that we did have an opportunity to 20 ' convince these callers of the truth of the situation, 21 and we spent additional money to notify our major customers 22 and our sales reps as to the truth. 23 But we're most strongly concerned about those 24 consumers who decide simply not to buy it because they've boon afraid, because they've been made afraid by the BON-01400 125 1 1 2 pres* release. We have a very highly seasonal business. We 3 are noet success ful during the sis months in the winter 4 when people start thinking about fireplaces, and our 5 selling season, is only about two weeks away. 6 And ve request that the -- that our produots be 7 specifically excluded from this proposed ban. And it be 8 written into the rules of the Register. 9 We also would like the exclusion to be included 10. in a press release so that our consumers know that they M have a safe and economical substitute. We, or at least I 12 read through the news release, when it first came to us, 13 X wrote here and asked for it, and in reading through it 14 X tried to think of it in terns of a reporter, and also 15 as an editor, as to what actually night happen to the .news 16 release when it was printed in the newspaper. 17 And by clipping out certain words, 1 came up 18 with the, the news release could have read, artificial (9 fireplace emberising materials, ash and enbera, are used 20 in artificial fireplace systems for decorative purposes. 21 Asbestos fibers are released into the air when household air currents disturb the ash. About three or four days later X was reading through our local paper, the Burgen Record, which is no reflection on that particular newspaper, and this is how it BON -01401  126 1 2 cane out. They ha interviewed the state commission of O 3 consumer affairs, the director of that department,and 4 5 it states, the director of the state division of consumer affairs is urging Kev Jersey consumers to join a nationwide 6 campaign to discontinue uae of and safely dispose of 7 spatitling compounds and' artificial asb and embers, products 8 containing inhalable asbestos, and sapeoted of causing 9 canoer* and that vas the firat paragraph. 10 11 The Federal Consumer Product Safety Commission is planning a ban oa the products, however state D. C. A. 12 1* 13 14 i f <15 i director Adam X. Levin notes that the ban will not become effactive until some time this fall. E*a quoted as saying, thesu products are ex trenely dangerous in that they have the possibility of 16 17 18 * <1 causing canoer when inhaled, and inhalation occurs rather easily. And a little further on in the article, the ^atatament was made, the artificial ash and embers are 20.: ' used in gas burning and decorative fireplaces. At high 21 . " temperatures the asbestos in thase products produces a J 22 glow similar to that of real embers and ash. O 23.. 24; And the next paragraph, dangerous inhalation of these products can occur, says Levin, when they arc 23.. sprinkled on the fireplace floor, when glue is used to BON - 01402 127 J attach the product to an artificial fireplace , o then 2 household air disturbs the ash. 3 The hole alddle section of the coasamer alert 4 and news releases missed out and ended up with just that 5 statenant. 6 The gnote from the proposed rules from the 7 Federal Register, the product is also glued to artificial 8 logs, either at a factory or by the consumer using an 8 eoberising kit. Asbestos fibers ere released when the 10 eabsrlsed material containing asbestos is sprinkled on the It fireplace floor and when ordinary household air currents 12 and downdrafts cause the asbestos in the simulated u&bers 13, and ash to become airborne. 14. This product is used on artificial logs and on 15 fireplace floors beneath them to simulate light embers and . 16 ash. There ere three kinds of artificial fireplace logs 17 available on the market presently;' the electric flame 18 simulating artificial logs, of which we manufacture one t9 kind made out of oak wood, and there are the compressed, 20 synthetic logs generally made from saw dust, and I think 21 it's a was sludge, and gas burning, artificial logs. 22 Sow, the proposed ban concerns the third type, 23 the gas burning, artificial logs. Type one, our logs, 24 and type two, baa been specifically excluded in the wording of the Federal Register. BON -01403 128 f How, those saw dust and was sludge logs are 2 actually burned In the fireplace, but they -- in the actual 3 4 wording they have been specifically excluded, although they 5 do not contain asbestos, and I don't think they ever have contained asbestos, 6 And we are asking that the -- as the commission 7 specifically described and excluded those compressed logs 8 to prevent unfair and unwarranted negative consumer reac 9 tion to that product, we raquest the same exclusion for the 10 very same reasons. 11 He are only a small business, and we look to the 12 agency of the federal government for support, and we 13 feel that this will have a negative effect on our busi 14 ness. 15 CHAXRM&H BYIBGTOH* Are there other manufacturers- 16 of electric logs as well, besides yourself? 17 HR. SIMP8OH : Yea, there's another manufacturer 18 of wood logs, and there's a manufacturer of fiberglass or 19 X think it's structural foam cast facing to the log. 20 CBAXRM&H BVXHG90K* Hell, is it your position 21 then that none of the people who are making the electric 22 type are using asbestos, and that is exclusively the 23 gaa? HR. SXMPSOHj ?hat is what I understand. He have never used asbestos, and wa keep a pretty fair eye BON -01404 129 1 on hat ous: competitors are doing, and they use the sane 2 materials and it's virtually the sane techniques. 3 So that hat you're really after is an addition 4 to the exemption, in other words to have it where wa have S already exempted compressed logs that are burned, we would 6 like added in there electric 7 MR. SIMPSONt That's correct. *1 See, the implication,e call them artificial 9 fireplaces and artificial logs. The major merchandiser* 10 who merchandise our products through their catalogues and 11 the retail outlets, have referred to them as artificial 12, fireplaaes, artificial logs, or decorative fireplaces. 13 Wording that's used in the same way raferring 14' to the gas logs that you were specifically interested in. .15 Ch a i r m a n BTXNGTOH* Commissioner Kuahner. 16 i COMMISSIONER X08HHBRC perhaps I aieunderstand 17 you but I don't interpret our rules applying, that is the 18 i proposed ban, as applying only to artificial logs intended 19 for use In gas burning systems. 20 As X read it, the ban would be applicable to logs 21 containing or bearing respirable, free fora asbestoe, 22 regardless of the hind of system that they were in* 23 It includes decorative fireplace logs, and X 24 think cites gas fired, decorative systems simply as an 25 example. But I don't read it as being limited to that. BON-01405 130 I How, what is the what kind of assurance Is 2 these that manufacturers of electric system* would not 3 finding It attractive under certain circumstances to 4 decorate the lego with asbestos bearing materials? 5 There is nothing inherent about the electric ones 6 as opposed to gas one# to make the use of asbestos bearing 7 embericing materials more or less likely. 8 NR. fllHPSO* Except that first of all the -- 9 when you talk about decorative fireplace systems or arti SO ficial fireplace systems there are only two ways -- three n ways of doing it. 12 There are gas logs. 13 CONHXSSZO&ER KOSHMEXt Tes. 14 MR. SZHP80Nt T he re a re artificial electric logs, 13 and there is something that is totally consumed. 16 CONMXSSXOWBX KQSHEERt Tes. 17 HR. SlHPSOBt That would be wood, of the compres 16 sed logs that have already been mentioned in the Register. TS And there is no -- we uae vermicular, w e 've been using 20 it all along. It serves the purpose well. We have no -- 21 there's so advantage for us to use asbestos because we're 22 not -- there is no heat generated. 23 The flame effect is created with a 40 watt 24 lamp and the clock motor, and it revolves to simulate a 25 burning effect, but the material you use on the outside bon -01406 131 I baa to bo clear, or at least sotaevh&t clear so that you z can see this light. 3 And asbeotos -- X couldn't soo any advantage. 4 We wouldn't consider it, we would never have considered 5 it beoeuse it would aerve no extra purpose. 6 CBAXRMAff BYINGTONt Conniesioner Pittie. 7 C0KMXS8X088R PITTAS X oust say X axisunderstood 8 you when yon were talking about as efficient a systen. X to9 thought you were talking about a ayaten of providing heat to the rooflu It NR. s Dtp5OH * Well, they are used in conjunction !2 with electric heater, or they can be used. 13 COMMISSIONER PITTAS* HO, X -- - 14 HR. SIMPSON* But X understand, yes. 15 COMMISSIONER PITTAS* Because X was under the 16 inprescion you had an electrical heater as opposed to a 17 -- the only thing electric is the rotation of the foil 18 or whatever the device is that the light would shine on 19 to reflect, to give the appearance of -- 20 HR.SXKPSOBj That's correct. 21 c o m m i s s i o n e r PITTASI Cfcay. So there's no 22 reason X oan understand why yon would have no -- - you 23 don't get enough heat to causa anything to glow. 24 MR. SIMPSOH* There is none. The glow is 25 created by the color of the laasp or the bulb that's in B O N -01407 132 1 log. 2 COMMISSIOH3SR PITTLBt So your concern is just 3 4 to nake * distinction, so that the word artificial fire5 : placer where in one ease it's artificial in terms of it's even artificial in terns of giving off heat -- 6 MR. SIMPSOHi lee, 7 COMMXSSX088R PITT18 Re opposed to another one 8 that gives off heat hot i t 's artificial, because there is 9 no chimney that takes -- yes, there is a chimney too. 10 MR. SIMP308> Doesn't have to be. We-- It COMMISSIOHBR PXTT&Bt It isn't a gas fireplace, 12 doesn't it have -- 13 1 HR SIMPSOB* ft gas -- most ell of them have to 14 be vented -- IS h r . PITTX.B* That's right. i 16 . 1 MR. SIMP SOS: There are one or two that are not, 17 and have not been vented. But -- 18 COMMISSIONER FRANKhtMt Bat the concern ia in 19 the consoner*s mind, he or she doesn't make a differentia" 20 tion between wba -kind of artificial you're talking about 21 here. Your product, which we have not -- if what you say is true, we should be concerned with under this notice aa being maybe pulled in here in terms of its imago as far as the consumer is concerned* BON -01408 133 MR. 8XMPSOK1 X have -- CHAIRMAN BSXHGTOHi Pine, y o u 'll show them? MR. SIMPSON * these aro just a picture of the catalogue, the product that v a *re talking shout, it is free standing, it is not vented, it can be used in coajunc- tioa with electric heat, forced air heater that fits in side the fireplace. That log on the lefthand side, that one standing up, is the artificial log. It's a decorative fireplace systea. But X spoke of the media, X got a call from Oregon from a manufacturer out there who uses my products in conjunction with hie. and he had been called by the local news station asking why he was selling these products when he knew that they were dangerous. And he immediately got onto me to find out if we were, and that's when X really got to hear how we got sideawipped by this proposed ban. CHAIRN&H BTIHGTOH: fell, X would suggest that before you leave today the Commission would oertaninly like to consider your request. - But X think that one of the things that's going to be neoassary is some consulta tion with the staff to determine how the appropriate wording can be sot up -- MR. SIMPSONt lea. bo n - 01409 134 I CHAIRMAH BZIHGTOH -- Sos the Commission to 2 consider, so it would taka care of your problem but would 3 not develop a very large loophole -4 MR. SIMPSON So. 5 CHAIRMAN BYXMGSOH -- ae Commissioner Kushacr 6 indicated might be developed if It weren't properly ad 7 dressed . 8 HR. SXMPSOWa 700. 9 CHA2RMAH BYINGYOH So X think the Commission 10 might, you know, in oonsidering this, would like to make' U sure that the wording that we eome up with is not only 12 agreeable to our staff but does solve your problem without 13 causing a major problem elsewhere before we eould go any 14 further. 15 MR. SXMPSOKt Yes. 16 COMMISSIONER PSTYLE Xs the veraicul&te coated 17 onto the outside of this log in the center? 18 MR. SIMPSON; Yes, it is. 19 CHAIRMAN 3YINGTON And also -- 20 COMMISSIONER PITYLB* Sow is it attaahed, With 21 a glue or -- 22 MR. SIMPSON With a glue, with a particular -- 23 it's a wood glue that we've used in our -- in the making 24 of the fireplace* We also use it to bond to the log it 23 self. BON -01410 135 1 I brought one with me if at any tins someone 2 wants to take a loot at it. It's also, if you loot at 3 the front of that picture underneath that log there is 4 a little dark area. That's veraienllte that's being glued 5 to the floor of the fireplace and then sprayed with a 6 black enamel paint to also act as a reflector and simulate 7 embers. 8 CHAIRMAN BYXKGTOtt* Okay, thank you very much, 9 Mr, Simpson. 10 MR. SIMPSOHj Yes. 11 CHAIRHAH BYlHGTONt okay oan you come back at 12 2 tOO. 13 Okay we'll adjourn until 200 o'clock, and then t4 we'll take you and Mr* castleman and those two others. t5 (Whereupon, at 1*00 the hearing was adjourned 16 for luneh) 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BON -01411 136 1 s k . s s . i_ o n z CHAXRH&H BTIEGTOH* 0. S. Consumer Product Safety 3 couittioa, public meeting on asbestos, and for the 4 information, the public commission is scheduling for it S self la closed session a meeting late this afternoon to 6 discuss with Its lawyers legal situation relevant to the 7 recent appellate court decision ca the Trie case. 8 And therefore we will, attempt -- we'.ve-been 9 achieving to wrap this up by 3*00, but we would be as -- 10 attenpt to be as close to 3*00, 3*30 as possible, so we 11 can resume our meeting shortly thereafter. 12 So we will now proceed, end Mr. Robert Rauch , 13 of the Environmental Defense Fund, is next, and you want U to talk about emberislng material. 15 MR. RAUCH* Mr. Chairman, Commission. With me 16 is Mr. Barry Castleman, whom you will be hearing frost 17 independently a little hit later, who is acting and 18 in his present capacity as a consultant. 19 X want to ba fairly brief this afternoon because 20 a number of these issues I have covered with you in 21 previous statements, but I must say in reviewing the news 22 release which was sent out on the 21st of July, and 23 also in viewing subsequent publicity, there have been a 24 number of concerns which have been raised in my mind, 25 which I hope don't entirely, at least, come under the BO N -01412 137 1 category of water ander the dan. 2 3 There arc some concerns which frankly I wish x 4 had noticed earlier, and X gtxeca -- I hope yon do whoa you bear them. I've reviewed the various letters which you 5 solicited, to get advice, before the press release was 6 issued, and a number of then -- first of all suggested 7 that the press release, or information going to consumers 8 contained some means for identifying whether in fact the 9 consumer has asbestos in the fireplace. 10 Sow, you just heard from the industry which 11 manufactures electric fireplaces, which apparently utilise 12 Vermiculite, and frankly X don't think if you gave me a 13 fireplace I could tell you whether it contained asbestos. 14 And I have seen the mineral on a nmfeber of 15 occasions. I'm just wondering how many people at this 16 stage, given what the Commission has released, can actually 17 determine whether they have asbestos in their fireplace. 18 And furthermore, if they're in doubt where do 19 they go to get the information. How, that concern was 20 raised by a number of different writers, and probably the 21 most prominent of which is Hr. Wilkinson, who was the supervisory industrial hygienist from the Department of H.B.H. The second conoern also raised by Hr. Wilkinson, or Dr. Wilkinson, was that this .operation should only be BON-01413 136 attempted by responsible, non smoking adults* How, Mr, Castleman perhaps ean add something to this, but ray understanding at least the reason for this is that studies have shown that there is a very high incidence.' of cancer and other forms of asbestos' related disease' in those who smoke in addition to being exposed to asbestos. Z think Sr. Wilkinson has raised a very real question here as to whether smokers should attempt the removal of these ashes. Again, something which from what Z've seen was not reflected la the Commission's press releases. How, the reason this is a particular concern is contained in again Dr.Wilkinson's letter, this is page one, the sixth paragraph, and X'll just read it verbatim. My own opinion is that responsible, non smoking adults following specific instructions, can remove the asbestos with a very minimum risk. But then he goes on to elte what he believes are the estimates of exposure. My estimate is that a complete clean up can be done in less than 15 minutes with a potential exposure to an air concentration that could vary from one tenth million, that is four fibers per cubic centimeter, to 10 million, that is 354 fibers per cubic centimeter, per cubic foot. Then he points out in 1976 OSHh limit, this is BON - 01414 139 1 the present: on/ foe asbestos* is two fibers par cubic, 2 centimeter with & ceiling exposure of 10 fibers per cubic 3 centimeters 4 Mow ,Barry has informed ae that o s h a has the 5 proposal out right now to reduce these so that the ceiling 6 concentration would be five fibers par cubic centimeter, 7 not to be exceeded in a 15 minute period. 8 Mow, what Dr. Wilkinson 1b saying here is that 9 during the 15 aiautee i t 's required to remove the ashes, 10 in his judgment a maximum of 354 fibers per cubic centimeter 11 eould be released* Almost 70 times the o s s a proposal. 12 Row, it was because of this information, this 13 estimate, that Dr* Wilkinson concluded that, "Before this, 14 or any other type of solution recommended publically, x 15 believe it is imperative that it be tried out in some loca 16 tion in which the potential exposures can be documented 17 under different circumstances and unforeseen problems 18 worked out* t9 How, to ay knowledge, and X would like to be 20 corrected, no such tests were conducted prior to the 21 test release was issued* How, believe me, X really regret 22 bringing these points ap at this point, they certainly 23 should have been made much earlier, and to the extent that 24 X personally didn't make them earlier I 'm sorry because I 25 certainly would have. BON -01415 i ! 140 1 But I think what may have happened here is that 2 in getting all of these letters, most of..which did conclude 3 that consumers could do it, we didn't take a close enough 4 look at some of the detailed observations, and if Dr. 5 Wilkinson is right about this exposure, and of course we 6 have no way of knowing, I assume it's just an estimate 7 on his part, we are talking about a single exposure, po 8 tentially 70 times the OSHA ceiling. 9 Wow.- the last point as far as the instructions 10 It go X wanted to make was made by Dr. o'Heal Banks, who is the chief of the Maryland Health and Safety industrial 12 Hygiene Department, 13 He pointed out a problem which the gentleman who 14 just preceded me didn't specifically address but would 15 come up with his products, and that is that if you have 16 an electrical fireplace which has the vermiculite in it, 17 and do this by mistake, not knowing that it contains 18 vermiculite and asbestos, the application of water to these 19 electrodes or wiring or whatever is used, could pose a 20 problem. 21 And again' I think the Commission's press release did not point this out. Now, X don't know how serious the problem would be, but apparently Dr. Banks did feel that it was potentially a problem. Exactly hov; serious, I frankly don't know. BON-01416 241 But those are four specific concerns which we do have, and which did, of course, lead EOF up initially, you know, to request that son type of specialised team be assigned to dp this. Bow, I understand the reasons why the commission did not adopt that suggestion. Admittedly, all the advice she reoeived suggested that homeowners could do it them- - j I selvos, and the teems would have been expensive. j However, we do feel, based on the intonation j j Z just presented, that a number of steps should be taken - ' j 11 i at.this point* Humber one, we would recommend that a test | * i 12 be run as suggested by three of the people who corresponded 13 with you, and I can go over them* Dr. Clark Cooper 14 made this recommendation, Mr. Harrison Rhodes, from whom 15 you heard earlier this morning, and of course Dr. Wilkin 16 son. . J 17 All of the indicated that a test was noceseary 18 before this was recommended, and I think given Dr. 19 Wilkinson's estimates, particularly, there is a need 20 } to try it and to try it both with someone who would do 21 it carefully and someone who would do it carelessly, 22 as Dr. Cooper has suggested. 23 To get an idea of just what are we talking 24 about, rn other words, you know, one of,the pointe that 25 X made earlier was that, for example, just a failure to BON-01417 142 t soak thm ashes through sufficiently first, this is not z an area vhare wo oan try trial and error a s soon as 3 4 someone pokes that plastic shovel in or whatever, and lifts up the ashes, if it isn't soaked all the way through 5 you could have a problem. X think it's this type of sort of carelessness 7 that we can expeat of. At least we ought to -.know the 8 parameters of what we're talking about in terms of expo 8 sure . 10 All right, the second suggestion, and this 11 really goes to the problem of how many people actually 12 know, despite the press release -- let mo add, X haven't 13 reviewed all of the papers in' the country, but the one 14 that X did see was the Hew fork Times, and some of you 15 nay have seen it. 16 Xt gave the story, barely two column inches, 17 buried on a back page with the heading, who burns fires in 18 July, or something to that effect. Xt was really rather 18 comical in the heading. 20 And to my knowledge, at least, the stories that 21 X have seen, none of them have actually printed the in structions. How, perhaps you all have seen stories to that effect. We generally review this through national newspapers, but it concerns me that even if it was covered, how are people supposed to get these instructions. BON-01418 143 I ! So the second step that ve core going to suggest 2 ia that at least for those manufacturers and distributors 3 that do have records -- new, admittedly it's probably 4 not a large number, but you ask then to notify purchasers 5 of w h o m they have records. Xt w o n 't be everyone, but 6 you'll get at least soma of them. 7 X suspect although X have no way of proving, 8 that a lot of people still don't know about this, and it's 9 very wasy for us in dealing with this constantly because 10 we've been exposed to it over and over, to think that !1 somehow everyone else is learning about it too. 12 13 ease. 14 But as we all know, that is not necessarily the Third, and this is undoubtedly the most contro 15 versial, we still would like to see at least for people 16 who smoke and for the elderly, the option of calling a 17 central number and getting someo&o else to do the removal. 18 How that someone else doesn't necessarily have to be a 19 separate, specially formed team. 20 Xt occurred to me this morning that perhaps a 21 local fire department who's need to handling dangerous 22 materials night, be able to do it. There are number of 23 people .who could do it, presumably who would take the care, 24 they could understand the instructions, where a person either because they smoke, because they're elderly, may not SON - 01419 144 1 be able to do eo. 2 fourth, we would hop that you would make, once 3 the teste are completed, and assuming that they are 4 completed satisfactorily, another effort to republicise .5 this problem, and the steps that are needed to correct it. 6 One thingL-Which I think would be very dramatic, 7 and X don't know whether any of yon have considered it, 8 but X think it would be very effective, if one of the 9 commissioners themselves was filmed removing these 10 ashes, from a fireplace. 11 Vow, X say that really not in jest because a 12 let of people may take the attitude, well, it's fine for 13' you people in Washington, without gas fireplaces, to tell 14 us how to do it. But have any of you ever done it your 15 selves? 16 Frankly, X would pause myself before X tried it. 17 X would be very, very careful. And X daresay that many, 16 many people who are going to try it don't have as much 19 information as X do. 20 X think also, and I understand that your office 21 of media relations has taken a number of steps to publicize it, that perhaps distribution of a film, whether you're a Commissioner or someone else, and you're doing it, radio spots could be utilised. My point very simply i3 this. X don't think BON-01420 145 1 the issue of a press release alone is enough to do it. z We're talking about 300 to 500,000 homes, presumably, that 3 have these in them. 4 X would be very, very surprised if more than 5 five to 10,000 of thorn were removed as of this point. 6 It's just a wild gufi$a but X would be very surprised. 7 An effort of this magnitude requires a continuing effort 8 and one X think in this case prdbably needs some modifica 9 tion* 10 And let me just say ia closing that despite .these 1! concerns, EOF is very pleased by the section 8 ban which 12 is being proposed by the Commission. We're pleased that 13 the effective date is, when the final regs do come out, 14 and we think that you have taken a number of very important 1S. steps. And X don't mean by this criticism to suggest that you haven't done anything, or at least w o 're not moving in the right direction. At this time X'd be happy to answer any questions, and refer the scientific ones to Barry. CHAIRMAN BYIKGTOMt First of all, Robert, are you aware that the press release is not the only part of the program? MR, RAUCH: Yes, X am, right. CHAIRMAN BY2NGT0H: Because your statement BON-01421 146 I Indicates that you felt a proas release by itself was not 2 sufficient. 3 MR. RAUCHi Right, X do understand that other 4 steps have been taken. X don't know exactly how it S stands 6 CHAIRMAN BTINGTON t The Commission agrees with 7 yon that a press release was not sufficient, and the office 8 of eoamunleationa have taken a broad approach to dealing 9 with this program through a large number of media with 10 a whole series of programs, short of a film. 1! h r . r a u c h * yes. 12 COMMISSIONER KUSHHBRt Just wanted.to ask for a 13 olarifioation of the -- your suggestion number two, which 14 followed from your observation that the newspapers hadn't .19 given the Commission's press release very much play, and 16 X guess what you are suggesting got by me by way of the 17 Commission's getting, in touoh with manufacturers -18 MR. RAUCH* Right, 19 COMMISSIONER KDSHNER* -- of distributors. 20 MR. RAUCH* Ves. 21 COMMISSIONER XUSHNERt And X didn't know what you wanted us to d o -- MR. RAUCHi I think -- COMMISSIONER KUSHNERt And what we're suggesting in that connection. BON -01422 147 1 NR. RAUCHt Right. I thick the first step would 2 be to gat la touch with both manufacturers and distributors. 3 As X understand it son tha Fireplace Institute's letter 4 to you, there are some, vendors that send out warrany cards, 5 some of which presumably have been returned, and which 6 7 eould be used at least as a start to begin reaching some people. 8 I think at the same time, of course, these 9 manufacturers, and particularly distributors, could be 10 urged to send out the instructions with notification, as .11 well as perhaps post signs in their outlets, x don't know 12 how often people would return to them, but in other words 13 have some way at the local level to reach these people 14 who have the fireplaces.. 15 X just -- x could be completely wrong, but I 16 don't think at least the national media coverage I've 17 seen, has been very effective. And there may have been & 18 lot more that X haven't sen, but X haven't been -- when I 19 saw this little story in the Times, as X said, X was rather 20 disturbed. 21 COMMISSIONER PITTASi I've, had a concern about 22 not seoing very many stories myself, and I asked the 23 director of our media relations. Herb Coster, to keep a 24 separate file on all the clippings that came in on this 25 story. BON-01423 148 1 a b it turns out he was already doing that, he 2 didn't need me to suggest it, hut I think there's a strong 3 feeling on the port off the commission to really alte sure 4 that -- at least in my mind, any way, it's an open question. 5 If it doesn't succeed then we can get very many people, 6 to be aware of it, through the print media and possibly 7 something through the electronic media', we're going to have 8 to try something else 9 MR. RAUCH: ? * . 10 COMMISSIONER PITTBE: I completely agree with you It that with 300,000 homes, or whatever the enact number is, 12 that a two inch story -- but it turns out there are' some -- 13 you just weren't reading some of the other, bigger news** 14 papers. IS Because there have been some fairly good sized 16 artioles, at least according to his file, that's growing 17 by the day. 18 MR. RAUCH: Yes. Save they included the instruc 19 tions, Commissioner Pittle? 20 COMMISSIONER PITTlBi That depends on who's got 21 the space at the time they print the artiole, and that's 22 something we have no control over. 23 24 ious . 25 MR. RAUCH: Yes, I understand, I was just cur c o m m i s s i o n e r PITTX.Es But the reason w hy they BON - 01424 149 1 aren't there 1 of no value to us If -- la being satisfied 2 that that's all we do -- 3 HR. RAUCHi Yes. 4 COHHXSSXQHBR PXTTIBr Because there may be some 5 way to get those things published at a cost. But they 6 will have to be done_now. 7 HR. RAUCHz Yes, X was just concerned that some 8 how we don't let this matter rest with the initial effort 9 that was made, particularly if ws find that not as much 10 is happening as wa had hoped. 11 X think that this is -- * it is a serious problem. 12 When X first came to you we thought this might be, you 13 know, 20 or 30,000 fireplaces. But the Fireplace Institute 14 was saying 300 to 500,000. You talk about an average 15 household of three people you're talking about potentially 16 1,500,000 people that are exposed. 17 C0MHXS8X0HBR PXTTLB: That's with the fireplace, 18 but not necessarily with asbestos embarieing materials 19 laying underneath, is that-- or do you believe-- 20 HR. RAUCH* X thought the estimate was-- 21 COKHXSSXOHBR PXTTiB* that athere*a a one to 22 one relationship? 23 MR. 'RAUCH: Well, X thought the estimate covered 24 asbestos containing kits. Xt's right in here. It aays here, in the past four or five years, B O N -01425 150 1 an estimated 300 to SOO ,000 fireplace Xog/ash IcIts have z bean sold. Shore ware 31 manufacturers of gee logs in 3 '72, in 1977 there are nine known manufaefcurers. 4 COMNISSIOREft PZITfcEi So -- 5 MR. RAOCHj So it's unolear, but I think it'a 6 clear that the teor_o the letter is about asbestos ashes. 7 2 think we eovld cheek with the Fireplace Institute easily 8 enough and find out for sure* 9 to CHAIRMAN BYXHGTOUt Z don't mean to be defensive about our communications .progrant, but I think for the . 11 reaord we ought to indicate that now all the Commission 12 feel as you do in terms of getting the word out. But there 13 has been a lot of other things. 14 One, there has been a whole series of picture 15 grama that are going out to weeklies that can run this 16 type of thing. 17 MR. RA0CBr Yes. ts CHAIRMAN BYXHGTOB* Shat you won't see in the 19 normal dailies, but will cover a great percentage of the 20 households in America through weeklies. 21 MR. RAOCHt Yes. 22 CHAIRMAN BYINGVOHi There has also been a major 23 effort to get radio copy to radio stations and to try aud 24 get -- you can't get the instructions and it was generally 25 agreed by moat lawyers that you can't use the broadcast BON - 01426 1S1 1 medio very well to tell people or show people how to do it 2 3 beo&use they need something in their hands. So the effort 4 here again was to get people to call us or write us and 5 get the instructions from u s MR. RAUCH tea. 6 CHAIRMANJbTIMGVOKt So X think a fair analysis 7 ought to ha which is what X hope we're trying to do, it's 8 a little difficult in the way it operates, but it keeps 9 some track on how nany calls we're getting and numbers 10 it we're sending out in terms of our hotline and other areas .as well. "* 12 NR. RAUCH# Yes. 13 CHAIRMAN BYINGXOHj Plus we've used consumer 14 'organisations and consumer affairs officers and the 15 state and local level across the country to try and dis 16 tribute that 17 And we'vs got no way of knowing how successful 18 some of those sight bo, or are. 19 MR. RAUCHi Mr. Chairman, I Jidn't really mean 20 to suggest by that that your media office had not been 21 doing anything, and I was made aware this morning of some 22 of the things you were doing* 23 I think my only concern is that some effort be 24 made on a continuing basis to find out just how effective 25 this is, if at all possible, such as the file and monitoring BO N -01427 152 1 and so forth, Bad then if it appears that further efforts 2 are necessary to heap an open Bind on them. 3 CHAIRMAN BXTlfcSTON< I agree, x don't think we can 4 rely on the Himes to get the ash out* 5 MR. RAUCH* I would -- as I said, the first point 6 X made about actually testing this, X think frankly would 7 be a good idea, given the fact that three of your commen 6 tators did strongly suggest, including the term imperative 9 at ono point, before we got too much further with this 10 program. 11 fhe test would be simple enough.. 12 CHAIRMAN BYXNGTON Hell, that's not what we're 13 told --~ 14 MR. RAUCH* Really? is CHAIRMAN BYIHGTON He're told it will take 16 a minimum of three months by the time you conduct it, run 17 it,, and come hack with any kind of analysed results worth 18 looking at. 19 And one of the reasons why X certainly voted not 20 21 to do the testing was because I wasn't interested in waiting three months, and if I'm told three months i'll 22 guarantee it will probably run four or five. 23 But I'm just not interested in running -- in 24 waiting for anywhere from two to six months, whatever the 25 figure happens to be, two months, three months, five months, BON - 01428 153 1 to wait and see whether or not or what tho eoncaatrakioa la 2 when the basic thing was to get it out. 3 And 4 MR. RAUCHi Well, I'm certainly not one to suggest 5 the Commission should delay, as you certainly know, but I 6 would hate to think that the oore in this case was worse 7 then the problem. j i 8 And yon had had three fairly respeoted people 9 when you solicited their views, tell you you needed to do to IJ that. And as X said -- 1! CHAIRMAN BTX8GT0M i We also had 15 others that " . , / 12 didn't think so. X mean, you knew , we got 20 some responses, i 1.3 * rI X guess, is the problem. 14 MR. RAUCHx Tea, I've looked at them, and X think 15 that, you know, some people obviously didn't even think of 16 it. X gness it's not a question of them saying you shouldn't 1.7 do it, it just didn't occur to them. 18 You know, X don't know if -- X can't imagine It 19 taking three months to run a tost. Tests were run on. the 20 Rockville asbestos problem with the coeds in a much .21 shorter time than that, X mean, it's not that difficult. ,22 And these would be under much more controlled conditions. Again, it's some advioa that at some point x hope we don't find out that this is a serious problem. cnAIRMAK BYXHGTONs Okay, thank you very much, Mr. BON - 01429 154 1 Rauch. 2 HR. RAUCHt Thank 70s. 3 CBAIRKAH BYIKGTOat Mr. Castleaan. 4 UR. CASTLSMABi The statement a X have to sake 5 at this point are tty ova they do not represent anybody 6 else* X have worked on product liability suits against the 7 asbestos Industry and X think it's important for the com-* 8 mission to understand the larger context of its ban in 9 terms of protecting people from asbestos hasards. 10 And how we got into this fis we*re in in the i l first place, and why a product liability law is proving ia totally inadequate to protect consumers, and why bans of 13 this sort are really ueedad. 14 Up until this time, the only recourse a consumer 15 had under the law was the right to sue manufacturers after. 16 he was injured, and this just hasn't been very protective. - 17 The latency of a disease usually on the order of 30 years 18 or more from the time of the parson's being injured, and .19 from the time that whoever sold him the product made a 20 buok for selling it to him. 21 And there are now hundreds of thousands of people who are expected to develop cancer, and are developing cancer, as a result of exposure to asbestos products. Most of these people were not warned that the products that they handled were any hasard to them. BON -01430 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 = 10 11 12 13 :.T4 15 16: | 17 18 te 20 21 22 23 24 25 155 she first tine that x know of any aebestoe product bearing a hasard warning as 1964, and that was insulation material, and the warnings were put on only after Selikoff's landmark paper was published shoving that something like 40 pereent of the work force was getting wiped out by occupational cancer and ashestosis. There were any case reports earlier going back to 1933, the first ease reports of ashestosis, among insula tion workers. And it was well known at that tine that aabestoeis was a fatal disease. A lack of hasard labeling on asbestos insulation is analagous to the lack of labeling on asbestos containing dry wall patching compounds. Dry wall patching compounds, to the best of my knowledge, bore -so hasard libeling until 1975. And the manufacturers made no effort to determine the estent of the asbsatos hasard that the product's use entailed, leaving this, instead, to be done by unions and medical researchers, and the products endangered the general public as well, not just the work force that applied them. And, finally, substitutes were always available. The asbestos industry's failure to clean up its manufactur ing plants and to warn its eastonors about product hasard#, the industry's unwillingness to conduct proper studies of BON - 01431 156 1 hasardous of asbestos* and I'm talking about la the 1930a 2 and 1940s when they started to find out about this fro 3 othas sources, and they probably knew about it long before 4 5 that, has led to the proliferation of asbestos hazards that will be with us for the next 109 years. 6 And X 'am enclosing a statement for the record 7 which Z originally wrote in response to a proposed bill 6 on national produet liability, and it goes through some of a the history in the asbestos industry, and X won't read the 10 whole thing, I'll just sort of ship through it and pull ii 12 ` some parts out of it as x go. Aabestosis was recognised by Pliny the Younger, 13 a Homan historian of the first century A.O.. The Romans ' 514 noticed -- this was slaves weaving asbestos, and they noticed that they were using up these slaves awfully fast, - 16 t and no matter how much they whipped them they couldn't 17 get them to work. And they figured out it must be asbestos, 18 they were breathing that was killing them. 19 And they even provided respirators for these 20 slaves. How, in 1918 the o. s. Department of labor Statis 21 tics monograph mentions that the insurance industry had 22 already picked up on the fact that asbestos workers were at risk of fatal disease to the extent that it wasn't a good idea to bet money on them living, that they were declined for life insurance by the insurance companies BON-01432 157 1 based on the little data that was available to theia. 2 That was six years before the firEt case of as 3 4 bestosis was published in the medical literature. And as I mentioned, the first ease of asbestoeis among a product 5 user, that is a man who worked with insulation materials, 6 1 suppose someone who worked in a manufacturing plant, was 7 published in 1933, and that was in the American literature. 8 ' There was also two cases published in the British 8 literature in 1934. In 1942 a couple of cases were published 10 in Hew York, insulation workers who had both lung cancer 11 and asbestosis. One of these men was employed with a major 12 asbestoeis company, cording to the medical -article, up 13 until a few months before he died, and his asbestosis killed 14 him in a very short time. 15. If he hadn't developed lung cancer, according to 16 the article, according to the last few years of life, he 17 was almost completely exhausted after climbing one flight o 18 stairs, and ho had frequent bouts of coughing day and IS night. 20 And it's pretty amaring that the asbestos industry 21 never did any studies on the product, on the users of its 22 products, such as these insulation workers, before 1964. 23 The industry did publish a few things in the 24 literature, but they vieren't very v*iil designed studios, 25 and they were generally defensive in nature. VJlien I -as B O N -01433 158 1 writing my mister's thesis on magical literature of asbes 2 tos in 1971, X knew nothing about the polities of scientific 3 articles and how they get published and vho wants to publish 4 what to proteet himself. S hut X was struck by the fact that there were two 6 camps r there seemed to be one group of people that were 7 always getting positive results and another group of people 8 that were always getting negative results, and asking new 9 questions that seemed to try and get everybody off the 10 traok, of the fact that the stuff was out there killing 11 people 12 How, the marketing of some of these products that 12 have caused academies of asbestos, probably would never U have occurred had the industry done' the kinds of studies 15 that it should have done in the 1930s, and this is the H reason X 'm saying all of this. r A lot of these problems never would have arisen. i A good erample is the use of sprayed fireproofing insula i tion, which was introduced in the 1950s, and they had snow 2 falls in the streets of New York from all the sprayed fire 2 proofing material being blown onto the girders' of buildings .'2 being constructed every throe blocks, another 60 story 4* building with the stuff being sprayed all over the place. J4 There was no way they could enclose it, and the stuff was eventually banned in 1973 by the Environmental BON-01434 159 1 Protection Agency. BOO there wore millions of people who 2 worked in those building*f trades workers, there were 3 other people walking by who were exposed to this asbestos. 4 Shis is a product that never should have been sold in the 5 first place and now that people are starting to get ashes6 tools frost having-worked with it it's problem to even 7 find out what's become of the eoepanios that manufactured 8 it. 9 *0 And of course there's the residual problem of the asbestos material that is sprayed on the insides' of 11 buildings and in duct work and now as with the LCA dormi 12 tories and the school house la hander Wyoming and this 13 is an article about the Tale architecture building had 14 to be completely renovated. This is in the medical litera 15 ture of how that was done. 16 f I'm sure your staff has a copy of this. This 17 is quite a moss we're stuck with all these buildings 18 having this material and it's not just a hasard, it's to 19 the people who built those buildings. 20 Sow, I've gone through 30 years of baok issues 21 of asbestos aagasines and used other sources to try and 22 run down some of the products that have been sold and 23 Z think we'll eventually find large populations at risk 24 from such things as dry wall compounds certainly 25 textured paints flooring backings. BON - 01435 160 J Armstrong makes a flooring backing that contains 2 asbestos, so if you havo to rip tha flooring off, vinyl 3 flooring off of a floor, than you've got to find some way A ' of scraping or sanding that hacking', and the backing 5 needn't contain asbestos, X would think. 6 Asbestos has also been used in tobacco and 7 cigarette filters. There'a even an article in the medical 8 literature on people who developed asbestosis from making 9 cigarette filters* Xt was used for filtering intravenous 10 drugs until about a year and a half ago when the Food it and Drug Administration took the suggestion of the 12 Environmental Defense Fund to deal with that problem. 13 And children*s modeling compound is tha only 14 product X know of that the asbestos industry has said, 15 does not contain asbestos. And it was in 1971, the 16 Asbestos Information Association put out a press release 17 and told a whole lot of people who run bureau of education, 18 things like that, that they should get rid of any of these 19 materials and not use asbestos to make paper mache and 20 this stuff. 21 And that came out of 22 East 40th Street, which 22 is the same address as the Johns-Kanville corporate head quarters. And in 1976 I heard of a woman who was making clay modeling compounds using Johns--Maaville asbestos, so it seems as if the companies haven't been effective in BON-01436 161 ! i I controlling thee hasardz oa their own. j 2 Ohs?, bo I 'll just mention that product liability ; 3 first of all in tb ease of consumers is very often un 4 recognised. In the case of people whb worked with these 5 products often it is recognised and it's become a rather 6 substantial threat to some aenbors of the asbestos Indus 7 try. 8 this is a 10k form from the Johns-Manville Corpora S to tion. They mention that as of March of this year they I t were the defendant or co-defendant in 271 suits alleging damage to the health of persons exposed to asbestos. 12 Most of these are product liability suits from asbestos 13 i* for insulation workers who were"never warned that the 14 stuff could kill them and who are now dying. 15 this -- the threat of all these lawsuits has !6 apparently been taken quite seriously by industry. This is 17 a bill B.R. 8689 was proposed by Congresswoman Hillicent 18 Fenwick on August the 2nd 1977 a week or so ago, two 19 weeks ago. 20 And this bill is called the Asbestos Health 21 Hasard Compensation Act, and this is going to be a compen 22 sation act just to pay off people who get asbestos disease. 23 And the part that strikes me is seotion 205, which reads 24 in part, no person or persons entitled to file a claim 25 for benefits pursuant to a provision to this act, shall BON-01437 3-62 be allowed to recover against tbe manufacturer, distributor, seller contractor, or applicator of asbestos materials. So that night be the end of product liabilities, if that thing gets passed. I haven't had a chance to read that bill over thoroughly, X just received it, but part of it does strike me. CHAIRMAN BTINGTOHl In the interests of time could you summarise, deal with the areas that directly ralate these two bans with this meeting, and then any other products. We will continue to appreciate any more information that you have. MR. CASTtBKAN Okay. Mow, the absence of any members of the asbestos industry to testify today,except for union Carbide, suggests to me that the industry is really decided that this product, this dry wall patching compound, should not be made with asbestos. And X have some remarks about the carbide data that you received on July the 14th, dated July the 14th. X first note that this is data from an interested party', as was the earlier data sent in by the Asbestos Information Association. I did not know until today that the person who did the job was the -- was a chairman of an asbestos information association standards committee, and the person chiefly responsible for selling asbestos to you. An(j BON - 01438 163 1 consoner oi dry wall patching compounds. 2 3 There le no attempt that I could aee to square o 4 this with the values reported by Rohl In the Rohl paper. I point out this paper had to undergo peer review prior to 5 being published, and certainly does not, contain sons of 6 the very questionable aspects 1 will allude to in the 7 Onion Carbide submission. -8v 9 . 10 , ; Thsy used optical microscopy, out of doors and in the hone, for determining background asbestos levels. This is totally inappropriate a way of discovering back 11 : 12 13 ground levels. This is e very coarse aethod, -only % measure) one fiber in 100 or one in 1000, from what's there. . And yet even with this coarse method, if you U -; 15i i take e look et the data you'll see higher values for , the asbestos levels inside the bouse than outside the 16' house, and there was nothing natural about the asbestos 17. levels inside the house, and the use of this term in the 18 cover letter, and a description of the house as a typical 19 residence is misleading. 20 The house had had a dry wall job in 1968, and 21 . a bathroon renovation in 1975, with estensiva use of J 22. asbestos containing patching compounds, in both cases, 23. and saving and drilling of asbestos aenenfe sheathing 9 24: in the latter job to fashion bathtub enclosures. 25, Then they had a gas log installed in'68 with BON-01439 164 1 asbestos on it Operator and area samples were taken 2 during the nixing of the powder with the water, airing, of 3 the speckling compound with water. hut the operator's 4 exposure during this 17 minute step mentioned on page 3 5 was not reported* 6 It appears- to have been iaoinded in one of the 7 eight hour tine waited averages, he peak value that 8 this person bed during the 17 mlnuto step is not reported 9 itself. 10 I'd like to know what that exposure was. The 11 tine waited average is for sanding, were both computed on 12 the basis of consumer spending something like six or so 13 of the eight hours outside of the house, as you pointed 14 out that's probably not the sort of indicator that you 15 would want to use in deciding whether there's au acceptable 16 risk. t7 You'd want to look at the more -- if that's a 18 very foreseeable, that the consumer stays in his house. 19 And yon would get values then of several tines as high 20 21 as the ones reported in the coves letter. And this is the sort of thing that would never 22 get published in a scientific journal. Carbides claim 23 that there was not a multiplicity of shorter, narrow 24 tibors ttat t Biased by optical methods is not supported 25 %by data, BON - 01440 165 1 X aavcn't oon, haven't had a chance to look 2 3 ' through what they've brought in today very carefully, bat X don't believe they brought in any data about electron 4 5 microscopy by wty of saying, for example, how many fibers yon see by electron microscopy for every one you would 6 7 count by optical microscopy. And this was.reported by Selikoff as being 200 8;; to nearly 1000 -- not Selikoff, Robl, by being in the e range of 200 to 1000. So that's for every one you see ip by optical microscopy, you'd find that many more if you ii looked at it under an electron mioroseopo. is;1- .13' i; And Sllkoff's poople used a 25,000 power magni fication transmission electron microscope. They are U. also the world's leading authorities on analytical methods is;ii for asbestos,' and so I would, having no other data, have 1&, to assume that the 200 to 1000 multiplier applies in this l.l'; i case as well as in the case of the paper that they pub -tfti lish. :iP;: ,20' 2.1 Scanning electron microscopy can be used to magnification of 15,000 power, Carbide pointed out, in their oral statement today, they said 20,000. They only described 22:,| 23, 24 ] .23, one sample that they looked at at all, in the 15,000 power, and the sample was described as number H30. And I'd like to know what kind of sample that was and X'd like to know more about what they saw under that BON - 01441 166 I mlerosaope. Their method for S8U analysis appears to be 2 3 limited to tha 1500 to 2000 potter range, this is a new method they're talking about developing* and this is only 4 several times more powerful than an optical microscope/ 5 which runs at about 400 power. 6 Why don't they use 15,000 power and count more 7 fields? That way they'll really eee what's there, or 8 at least they'll see a lot aora what's there. The scanning 9 to eleetron microscope technique used makes a millipora filter into a thin film before scanning, for fibers. 11 12 well, fibers that were trapped in the middle of that filter, when a filter gate collapsed, are going to 13 wind up in the middle of that film And they might be 14 hidden from view from a scanning electron microscope 15 if the~- the scanning electron microscope sees about the 16 top micron of surface, according to people X consulted, 17 and if the fiber is a small fiber, especially, but at 18 any rate if it's under the top micron, surface, the scanning 19 electron microscope is not going to see it. 20. And so this method ill undereount fibers, 21 and it will especially undereount real small fibers. 22 X'd like to know how thick the film was, that 23 they looke dat, under the scanning electron microscope, 24 after it was collapsed 'prior to being put under the 25 microscope. BON -01442 1 I 167 I X'vo also been told that aillipore filter material 2 is easily damaged by electron beams and swelling of the 3 fils would impede analysis la contrast, nnelepore 4 filters are not so affected. Vha samples could, have been 5 transferred to nuclepore filters with deposition of the 3 asbestos fibers entirely on the filter surface. 7 * Wes swelling e problem, was transfer considered. 8 Low temperature ashing would have removed the millipore 9 filter remains, making it easier to view the fibers. 10 Tot no mention of the use of ashing appeared in the re 11 port. 12 Wow, if we used the figures of Roh at al of 13 200 to 1000 small fibers for every one you'd count with 14 the optical microscope, and the number -- the peak number 15 reported by Carbide, the number of fibers you come up 16 with. 17 Carbide reported 300,000 large fibers, physical 18 and optical microscope, on a time waited average basis. 19 That was the maximum they reported. 20 hud so from the mount Sinai paper, that means 21 there were six million to 30 million asbestos fibers 22- per cubic meter of air, total fibers. The average 23 persons breaths about one cubic meter, a little less than 24 that, per hour. ! 25 And these amounts of asbestos are certainly BON-01443 168 1 z not normal background lev* Ia for tbe boms, as Carbide has maintained* 3 Whan Carbide or its commercial customers for 4 asbestos fiber mate a product that does not expose con 5 sumers to asbestos levels above normal background, z would 6 agree tbat(s no basis for banning tbe product as a con 7 sumer barerd, but this is not seb a product. 8 It's not mentioned whether the product used for us 9 Gypsum is made from asbestos from Onion Carbide's sines* to X understand tbe carbides, asbestos is fiber of an unusual 1!. ly small dimension, and this is tbs fiber in tbe product 12 it would bo especially difficult to got meaningful measures 13 of exposure with optical microscopy* 14 The produet was. made in 1974 and took three years 15. to reach the consumer, X know. Has U.S. Gypsum a customer 16 for carbide asbestos la 1973, *74? 17 The dry wall job was reportedly done by a 18 typical consumer. Was the consumer wearing a respirator. 19 I'm thinking now about the ~ not the job that was done 20 by Mr. Rhodes, but the job that was done by tbe other 2 r 21 carbide employee* And I'm thinking, if X were an employee of 23 Onion Carbide and I were doing a job on my house, what 24 would go through my head while I was doing the job, and 23 sight the nature of the job I do be affected by the fact BON-01444 169 1 that there's all this monitoring equipment around. 2 3 And the fact that I worked far a company that 4 is obviously looking foe a contain result from the testing. The highest exposure reported was that of'a peeson who 5 watched the work close. This shows one way that the risk 6 7 is transmitted to other embers of tbe household. Use of fiber shaped substitutes for asbestos 6 ie not necessary, as soae products on the market for years 9 have not had fibrous ingredients. Hon fibergenio, non 10 carcinogenic formulations already exist. 11 12 The concern over fibrous clays is.primarily a 13 result of tbeir impending substitution for asbestos, not 14 a result of documented health effects that are caused by these substances. It is unlikely that any substitute 15 for asbestos now being considered will rival it as a health 1$ 17 hauard to an. Carbide has asked tbe Commission for a one percent 18 limit on asbestos and dry wall patching compounds, however 19 no data was supplied to tbe extent of asbestos, that 20 these compounds would entail. 21 Moreover, no reason is offered for why the 22 Commission should deem compounds of more than one percent 23 asbestos as unacceptable, yet allow one percent asbestos 24 in these compounds. 25 X would personally think that the risk to BON - 01445 170 1 consumers Is the sane order of magnitude, whether you 2 have one percent asbestos in the product or three or four 3 percent. And it's not gain? to you're not going to 4 reduce the risk by one hundredfold by going down a few 5 percent in the asbestos. 6 Carbide*B_ofcher request to the Connies ion was 7 to require warning labels on all such compounds , whether 8 packaged for commercial or consumer use. X believe they 9 to 'would put warning labels on these products voluntarily any way, if only to protect themselves from product liability 1? suits 12 But Since they like to calculate time waited 13 averages on the basis of tha consumer being out of the 14 i bouse, perhaps they*d be willing to put a warning label 15 that tells the consumer to get out of the house when he 16 . gets through speckling his house. 17 A one percent limit would enable manufacturers 1s8 to work off existing stocks, with higher asbestos contents, 19 by dilution. Dnlike a ban on asbestos, this would mean 20 there is really no economic impact on the industry.' of 2.1 course the public health risk would be extended indefinitely 22 with a one percent level of asbestos alloyed. 2? How, I've even tried to calculate what it*s 24 worth to the industry to be able to go on selling asbestos 2.5 for use in these compounds, bow much money they would make BON -01446 171 I roa it, and how any people would probably die as a re 2 3 sult. 4 And I've tried to use industry figures, with the Asbestos infor* ation Association comments that about 5 10,000 tons of asbestos were used in tape joints and 6 sinilar compounds 1 1975, and following publicity after 7 the Mount Sinai -"s medical group paper in Augnst *75, use 8 of asbestos in such, products has declined. 9 And Jotans-Manville, the largest asbestos company 10 in the western hemisphere, stopped selling asbestos for 11 use in tape and patching compounds in 1976. Johns-Manvilla 12 attorneys were no doubt mindful of their company's poten 13 tial liability in the event of a bad.recall order on 14 dry. wall patching compounds containing Johns-Manville IS t asbestos 16 Suoh ban had been requested by the Natural 17 Resources Defense Council in its petition, and the Com- 18 niesion voted three to two to instead pursue a ban on 19 the Consumer Product Safety Act. 20 Since 1976 that has become a part of Johns-Manvill 21 policy not to sell asbestos fiber for what they called 22 inappropriate uses, and therefore the sale of fiber for 23 spaefcllng compounds, joint compounds, has been discontinued, 24 ih e o n ly firm pushing for continued permission to use 25 asbestos and dry wall patching compounds is Onion Carbide.. B O N -01447 172 1 a whass '.California asbestos mines constitute a minor source of Income for the nation's second largest chemical companies 3 lt*s net even mentioned In their annual report the word s4 I asbestos Unlike Johas-Hanville Carbide does not hare 6 an enormous caseload, of product liability worker's compen 7 sation and other asbeatoa disease litigation at this 8 time* 9 bat us assume that ewarybody but Union Carbide ,0 stopped selling asbestos for use in dry wall patching 11 compound and make an estimate of what this business would 12 be worth to union Carbide. 13 Is noted the industry estimates for the market 14 are 10000 tons per year before the hasards were reported 15 ia the scientific literature and before pressure was 16 brought on public agencies to -~on this agency to ban this " 17, product. IS the asbestos Information Association estimated 19 an .average asbestos content for dry wall patching compounds 20 IS three percent and Carbide wants the Commission to 21 approve of compounds of one percent asbestos for continued sals. So an outsida estimate of the remaining market for asbestos in these products at the one percent level might be 3000 tons per year, union Carbide's asbestos is BON-01448 173 1 abort thin fiber with an approximate sale vale* of $50.00 2 a ton And at this price, aeaumign that Carbide has tho 3 entire market, that is that nobody else would sell asbestos 4 for these purposes the annual asbestos sales for patching 5 compounds would be $150,000.00* 6 Carbide's 1976 rate of return was seven percent 7 net lneoae on sales, so w e 're talking about a not income 8 of $10,500.00. They have over 150,000 stockholders, so 9 the return of the sale of the 5000 .tons of asbestos per 10: year amounts to Sevan cents per stockholder, per year. 11 Or* selikoff suggested that if the produets 12^ ere not banned, the governmentmight consider just giving 13 the $10,000.00 to the stockholders of Onion Carbide and 14 let them keep the asbestos. 15 On the other side, the Commission has estimated 1.6. that the .lung cancer risk is between 10 and 2000 per t7 'million* In other words, with eeeh exposure, consumer 18 incurs a life time lung cancer risk of between one in 13 100,000 and one in 500. 20 The Commission's risk estimate does not take 21 account of risks of other forms of cancer, each as 22 mesothelioma, however X do not believe that there is yet sufficient data to calculate the risk with much assurance as a guess, an expert guess, if you will, I would use a figure of one in 10,000 as a total cancer risk for a job BON-01449 J z 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 IS 16 *\ 17: 1.8; 19. t 20 21 22 v 23 j 24 25 i 174 of 24 hours as described in the risk estimate. With the caveat that it'8 probably within the range of 10 tixee as much to 10 tines as little that figure A way of confirming something that gives me sons assurance that X'a in thn right ballpark is to assume that the risk is linear with dosu*. that is, if you take this Ghanae five times you have five times as risk as you do if you're doing it once And this Is 24 hours of exposure, so let's assume that somebody works with the stuff 24 hours a week, does it 50 weeks a year*, so he takes the risk 50. times per year, that's a one in 10,000 risk tines 50, and let's say be does it for 20 years, that's 10Q0 times he takes a one in 1 0 ,0 0 0 risk. S o as a very rough figure it's one in 10, his risk would be after doing this for 20 years. And that . sees, roughly speaking, reasonable to me. Wow, for every one sillion such exposures from consumer and Connerd a l application, dry wall patching compounds, the expected number of eventual cancer cases would be 100, one in 10,000 risk, a million people, 100 times 10,000. The industry estimated a 350,000 tons of patching compound with three percent asbestos was produced in 1975. Assuming that Carbide's one percent limit is accepted by BON-01450 175 1 the Commission* It is likely that millions of dry wall 2 renovations per year would continue to be done with as 3 4 bestos containing Material. CHAXRMA* BYXHGTOS1 Hr. Caatlemau* could you sum ,5. marise. You asked for 15 minutes and you're about 40 al 6 7 ready. MB. CASYX.KKA*i 2*a sorry. This is about nil I 8 have to say. 9 CHAXBHAH BYIHGTOtf* Okay, will you supply copies 10 of this to the Office of the Secretary, so the Commission 11 will have eopies? 1? Hft. CASTLBHAH* It's a bit of a ease, but i've alraady supplied it. X don't type very well. _ 14 CBhXRMAH BTlHGTOHt Okay. X looked through the 15 package that we received* end X didn't see the material that 16 yon were using es yon go, through here*- but -- 17 HR. CASTLBHAB* Well* it's here out of order. 18 CBAXRMAH BYXHGTOWl Okay. 19 MR. CAS71SHAHt There's also a brochure from a 20 company that has asbestos mines that's out selling asbes 21 tos* just like it was the beet thing in the world. 22 That's Grant Wilson. C0HKISSI0HBR FRAR10.XH* Emeuse mo, for a moment. Is this -- what I've gotten* is what what you're using? MR. C&SYIiBM&H: Yes* I'm working from that. BON -01451 176 1 COMMISSIONER FRANKLINi Okay., okay. Yo u 've got 2 it all in here hut out of order. 3 MR. CASYLENAB* Toe. 4 Xtt order -- the Commission has- proposed a total 5 fcea on asbestos in these materials not being able to find 6 any routes of sales_to these materials that aren't accessible 7 to consumers. 3 Xa order for Union Carbide to continue to sell 9 asbestos for patching compounds in the event that the 10 Commission follows through with its proposal to ban 11 asbestos containing compounds patching compounds, onion 12 Carbide would have to make special arrangements for its 13 commercial oustomers to create new channels of distribution 14 that will be on the Commission's authority. 15. X take this occasion to urge Onion Carbide sot 16 ' to press its ease before the Commission, or try in other 17 ways to foist these dangerous products on the American IB people. 19 X urge Carbide to aease maintainingj even 20 after the rest of the asbestos Industry has gone silent, 21 that asbestos is safe and essential for use in patching 22 compounds. 23 And X urge Union Carbide to consider that some 24 of its stockholders will most likely be endangered by 25 these very products, and they would rather not risk getting St BON-01452 177 1 cancer themselves or having anyone else get cancer/ foe a 2 profit of seven cents per year. 3 And X urge the Consumer Product Safety Commission 4 s to do ell in its power to promulgate a total tan on as** bentos containing patching compounds as soon as possible. 6 *he last thing is a very specifio request. X 7 would request that the ban take effect immediately/ not 8 in 30 days after it* published. But if a 30 day stay o 9 effective date is retained X request that the Commission 10 require during this period all asbestos containing dry 11? wall patching compounds be required- to bear a label 12 warning that they are about to be banned because they 13. pose an unacceptable risk of caneer to consumers. 1.4 CBAXBMAH B7XMGT0H* Okay. Any questions? JS. COMMXS8XOHKR PX7TOB* A very quick one. 7 was 16 reading on one of your pages you indicated you were 17 an expert witness on product liability .cases. Would you 18 state for the record what your qualifications aro that 19 make you an expert. 20 HB. CASS&SHABs When X was at Johns Hopkins in 21 1970-71, X obtained a master's thesis -- a master's degree 22 in environmental engineering and my thesis was on the 22 medical literature on asbestos. Xt was Asbestos Effects on Health. And for the last six years I've worked on problems BON -01453 i? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 3 3 W It 12 13 ` 14 . 178 ha*;iag to do with asbestos mod health# I've dealt with over doxen federal, regulatory agencies -- not all xegula- tory agencies, including outfits like the United States Havy that have asbestos problems. solved* And I'd like to see some of these problems CHAIRMAN BYXHGYOHt Commissioner Kashner. COKHXS8XONBR XOSBHSRt In this connection, Barry, are yon aware of any emerging data that deals -with the incidence of long cancer# amesathilioma, in dry wall workers? * NR* CA8T&SH&B: fee* X mentioned one paper the last time X was jhere COMMISSIONER. XDSHNBRi Yes. 15 ; MR. CASYLBHAN* It's by Hanc and Henderson in 16 the December *76 issne of the Journal of Occupational 17 . Medicine, and-they found that it was excess rates of 18 , lung cancer among a number of work forces in Los Angeles, 19 s 20 including dry vail workers, including electricians, plumbers, and clothing ironers. 21 : And the authors believed that these people's J 22 . exposure to asbestos played a role with excess risk of 23 lung canoer. Q 24 There is also one case reported of lung cancer 25 of a dry wall worker, I h&va a copy of it* lt`s an abstract. i BON -01454 179 1 but it'8 just on case to really tell you much. 2 3 CHAIRMAN BTXKGTONt okay, we thank you very much. 4 Hr. Castleman. We also have been provided -- w e 'll hear again 5 from Mr. Rhodes of Onion Carbide, who wanted to save half 6 of his time. 7 The prior witnesses, suedeen Gibbons of the 8 natural Resources Defense Counoil, has agreed and we 9 appreciate her providing the list of questions that she iO raised relevant to studies, there were six of them. 11 h I.g i b b o n s * okay 12 CHAIRMAN BXXHGTON* And X would suggest, X think, 13 that do you have additional copies of those? 14 MS. GIBBOUSt yes. 15 CHAIRMAN.BYINGTQN* Yes, X 'd like one. Also, 16 to the staff and Mr. Rhodes. 17 What X would suggest, unless there are some 18 of those that you would like to address at this point in 19 time, address as many of those as you think that you. want 20 to. 21 The rest, though, we would ask that you submit 22 an answer for the record, if you would agree to that. 23 COMMISSIONER FRAHKXiXH: Mr. Chairman, and Mr. Rhodes too,I've got to go, but there's a question X would like to have asked and perhaps the chairman could BON-01455 180 1 9 that it gata answered. 2 CHAIRMAN B72NG30N Okay. 3 COMMX68XOHBR F&ANXLXHt In ny absence. And there A is a member of'my staff in the room who will listen 5 vary carefully, and will listen to everything else that 6 goes on besides. __ 7 But Mr. Rauch mentioned earlier, Z thought, that 8 you agreed with him that we needed some kind of test to 9 see whether consumers can actually get fireplace logs and to ash out of their homes safely, and that was my question. 11 X?wanted to ask you whether the two of you do 12 indeed agree and what your thought on this w a s . 13 MR. RHODE'S t Well, the staff contacted me to 14 t ask for opinions on a suggestion for a procedure, which 1? we were happy to send in. X gather it looked very muoh 16 like a number of procedures that was sent in. 17 And one of the suggestions, if X reoall correctly, 18 X don't have it here in front of me, was that we did 19 suggest that we should a gentleman has just put it 20 here over ay signature. 21 X said in conclusion, due to the complete lack 22 of any data for the specific operation, he strongly 23 recommended that any removal procedure that is developed 24 be checked to measure actual exposure levels before wide 25 spread use. BON - 01456 181 1 And X would stand on that, that seems to me that 2 3 It's worth trying to find out what level of exposure you are causing. How, as far as the three to six months, X 4 haven't seen that protocol and X would think it would he 5 done aa long aa you're not looking for total statistical 6 evaluation of 20 or 30 locations 7 But you could go into threa or four places and 8 remove the material and measure the asbestos level you're 9 getting much more quickly than three to six months. Mow, 10 I t in that eonneotion, there has bean a lot of talk about the use of scanning electron microscopy and transmission elec 12 tron microscopy. 13 The thing that you have to he aware of is that 14 all of the medical data -- say all, all that t 'm aware of -- IS has been correlated in terms .of the fibers per cc, longer 16 than five microns, primarily as measured by optical measure, 17 optical procedures. 18 This question of whether there are a lot of 19 very fine fibers or very short fibers, whether these have 20 any hazardous nature, is vary much a controversial issue 21 at this point. 22 CHAIRMAN BYINGTON: Okay. X think part of the 23 problem in terms of the three months or mors is the fact 24 that if you've ever been involved at this end in terms of 25 government contracting, we're looking at probably anywhere BON -01457 182 t from 30 to 45 days just In order Co draft it up, publish 2 it, get the bids, do the thing, or even go out and find it 3 and get it erdexed, and find the people 4 So that we're worried at this end of the 30 S to 45 day lag before we're ever into testing, and then 6 it's the testing and then the results and that's how 7 somebody gets to about 90 days. 8 MR. RHODES* Hell, if you're going to get into 9 transmission electron microscopy, Z can see how it would 10 take that long because sample, prep, and counting are very It slow and tedious, and X don't knew quite how you want 12 to handle sone of these questions that Mr. Castleaaa 13 raised. 14 Z don't think we really want to get into a de IS tailed, teohnioal discussion of monitoring procedures. 16 Again, transmission, I'd be glad to 17 CHAIRMAN BYINGTON: What -- 18 MR. RHODES: z am not really an expert in that 19 area. The man we rely on is chairman of the A STM committee, 20 subcommittee, which is studying that subject. 21 CHAIRMAN BYINGTON: What we attempted to do is 22 to provide you right now with a copy of h r d c 's points, and 23 as many of those points that she raised or that Mr. 24 Castleman raised that you would like to address, you're 25 free tv do so. | I I BON-01458 183 1 a The balance wo would ash that you could comment on for the record we would appreciate that. 3 HR. RHODES* All right, let me start with the 54 questions here. I've got too much data floating around. Question number -- do you want me to read it or do you 6 want me to go ahead and answer it. 7 CHAIRMAH BYINGTON* Go ahead and answer it. 8 HR. RHODES: Relating to x-ray defraction, in 9 the determination of how much asbestos products contain, 10 we-have done some x-ray defraction work, and it's very I t undefinitive. 12 We are now talking with the people who. presented 13 the people, NBS, on the talc side of things. You just 14. plain cannot take a mud or a dry product and run it 15 through an x-ray defraetometer, and expect to get lines 15 out that will tell you how much asbestos. 17 As they appropriately say, chloride will inter 18 fere, and mica will interfere, and there's a whole series 19 of things that will interfere. 7ou get involved in special 20 preparations. 21 How what we did do on the material which was labelled as containing asbestos, on the first test, is mix it up, dilute it, and look at it under the optical microscope. And we were able to see fibers that to an BON - 01459 184 t 2 experienced counter all the character!9ties of classical 3 crysatile. 4 8o this telle US they were there, it doesn't 5 tell ua the weight percent in the mud. on the second mud 6 we it was supplied to as by a manufacturer who told ua 7 what the formultioirwae, met all bis product specifica 8 tions, tha asbestos bad been left out. It just wouldn't 9 have looked the same. 10 We can't guarantee that it's 2.6 percent asbestos, 11 but ve know how many bags ware supposed to have put in', 12 put in in the formulation and 1 think that's probably a 13 more reliable measure of what's in there than trying to 14 run it through a Ion?/ complex analytioal technique. 15 Z come back to tha point that the analysis for 16 asbestos, orystaila, any.-way,- in'these compounds, is a 17 real difficult analytical problem. 18 Second question, how did you insure you counted 19 all the asbestos particles, Onion Carbide did not use a 20 KXOSB counting technique, and so on. As a matter of fact, 21 Union Carbide did use the HXOSH counting technique, if I 22 can find the quotation. 23 I duplicated a page from P and CAM 239, the 24 latest edition, which says, part 3, interferences. An 25 atmosphere known to contain asbestos, all pabticulates with a length of diameter ratio of three to one or greater, BON-01460 185 t any length greater than five micrometers should, in the 2 absence of other information, be considered to be asbestos 3 fibers and counted as such. 4 And 1 don't know of 'any`laboratory, and I know a 5 lot of people in the laboratoribs'i who do a blind count 6 of everything with a t over 0 greater than three, a length a7 greater than five. ~ OSSA does not do it at 8alt lake City, and a 9 oertain amount of -- I don't want to get too long into a 10 discussion on it, but if you eount -- don't count, X II look a lot in the microscope* Counting is an eyeballing 12 technique which you have to develop. 13 Zf you've done it a while you can spot what's 14 asbestos, what meets the criteria. Too get a trained eye 15 ball, and it's an aoquired skill. 16 How, as far as did we leave a lot of fibers out, 17 we try to count,first of all, everything could be oryaatile, 19 and X won't get into details, it could be crysatile, even 1S though we'may not think it is, it's counted as crysatile. 2( Anything which could be an amphibole is counted as an 21 amphlbole. 2S The only things that are not counted are those 2? wavy platelets and things which meet the criteria, but do not look either like crysatile or any of the amphiboles. We are not, and again I would comment, this BON -01461 4 186 1 concept that someone who*a involved in trying to do a 2 reasonable scientific job is suspect as having an interest 3 . in their data or no use X have been trying to avoid 4 getting into a hassle vitb Mount Sinai on why the Rohl 5 data looks so high. X declined to speculate on it and 6 X will only stand on the.data that ve've presented today, 7 other investigators including OSHA, which indicates that 8 our numbers are pretty much in the same range as theirs 9 to are. And we have counted a number of times with n California OSHA and a-number of other laboratories side \z by side, and we get essentially the same numbers. 13 This question of significant amounts of smaller than five 14 micron fibers, the point that X made earlier, that all of IS the hazard data, the risk data, is in terms of fibers 16 per cc longer than five microns, and this whole area of 17 the shorter than five microns has not been well defined, 18 and we did not intend to present this as an electron micro 19 scope study of small fibers. 20 This time waited average thing that we allowed, 21 we calculated them as required by the OSHA formulation. 22 X think it's been, blown out of all proportion. The 23 numbers are there for the household exposure, in the off 24 periods when the workers are not there. 25 Some of the subsequent ones have bean calculated BON-01462 287 1 for the entire day in the house. One of the operators, z the wife, stayed there the whole day. And the aritical 3 point is whether you're got a tenth or two-tenths, four- 4 tenths, it really doesn't -- when you start feeding it into 5 ths risk estimation ,you can get up as high as four or S fire fibers for a whole day before it begins to make 7 any significant result, effect. 8 Mow, when you average out -- when you take it 9 and average it over a year* and grind it into or. Bayard's 10 formulation, why you have to get up around four or five If fibers per co before you begin to see any significant ef 12 fects. 13 When you get up into 2 0 and 30, it gets to be 14 .significant .rather rapidly. And 1 would comment that 1 *5 was not criticising basically or. Bayard's approach, we ! are dubious about'some o f <hi*rassumptions, but I was 17 using it to, as he put it together* and 2 hope my arithme 18 tic is correct, to calculate the numbers for some other 19 levels which he didn't touch. 20 Xs there anything else in that area that you 21 had. 22 CHAIRMAN BYINGTON: Why d o n 't you go ahead and 23 proceed. 24 MR. RHODES! You'd lik e to ask about -- 25 CHAIRMAN BYINGTON: Then feel free at the same -- BON -01463 183 1 tii to th other parti* as X indicated at the very be 2 ginning, that any of the parties who are participating to 3 day are moat free to subxxit additional comments between O 4 now and the end of the lose of consent tine, which is 5 th* 2 what, 29th, isn't it? Tea, August 29th. 6 MR. RHODESs Me 29th? 7 CHAIRMAN BTlNGTONi On any of the subjects that 8 you had previously planned to comment on, or any of the 8 other subjects that were raised today. And they would all 10. be part of the record and taken into consideration by the . 11 Commission when it makes its decision. 12 MR. RHODES * Well, we do plan to present a report 13 on this second test. 1.4 CHAIRMAN BYXNGVON ; All right. 15 MR. RHODESt Bone of the file numbers are just 16 being counted today. 17 CHAIRMAN BYINGTOHs You had a snail portion, I IS ' understand,, of the rest of your statement here -- 19 MR. RHODES* Right, I will go right to that. 20 CHAIRMAN BYINGTOHi -- and also Staff had a 21. couple questions, and we can see if we can attempt to J 22 complete this. 23 HR. RHODES; Do you want to go to the staff ques O 24 tions or -- 25 CHAIRMAN BVIKCiONt No, go to your -- B O N -01464 I 189 1 MR. RHODSBi Hiat 1 van tad to do now is pick up 2 at the point where we had estimated using the Bayard 3 modal, tha levels of risk calculated for the levels of ex 4 posure that, ve had found* This starts at tha beginning of 5 page seven, and at tha risk of being redundant and telling 6 you something you already know, 1 vented to quote a couple 7 of items from section seven from the Consumer Product Safety 8 Act, which relate to the conditions for a ban. to9 Pirst, the consumer product is being or will be distributed in commerce and sueh aoasumer product presents 11 an unreasonable risk of injury* No feasible consumer 12 produet safety standard under this aat.would adequately 13 protect the public from the unreasonable risk from injury 14 associated with such products* 15 And skip down, tho Commission shall not promulgate - te a consumer product safety rule 'unless it finds and includes 1" such finding in the ruling that the rule, including ins effective date, is reasonably necessary to eliminate or raduca an unreasonable risk of injury associated with such products. Promulgation of the rule is in the public interest, in the case of a rule declaring a product a banned hazardous substance, that no feasible consumer product safety standard under this act would adequately protect the public from an unreasonable risk of injury associated with such product. BON - 01465 190 1 Mote particularly tha repeated use of the words 2 unreasonable risk and the requirement to eliminate or reduce S unreasonable risk, not to make this risk zero. The act 4 makes it quite clear that the intent is not the total elimi 5 nation of all riskr but of unreasonable risk, and it dele 6 gates the Commission the complex and soul searching problem . 7 of deciding what is reasonable. 8 Comments of your own staff on the strength of 9 the evideno* used to support the ban is well summarised 10 in three short quotations from the record. First, from 11 the Federal Register and tha description of the ban. 12 The petitioners believe that high quantities of 13 asbestos fibers remain in the air after these products are 14 sanded, and the fibers substantially increase the risk of IS mesothelioma and lung cancer. And from a letter July 11th, . 16 '76, from Charles H. Jacobson, to Franoine Shaoter, the 17 petitioners have addressed problems which arise from being 18 exposed to asbestos fibers occupationally and environ 19 mentally. 20 However, they have not cited any concrete evidence 21 of a hazard, which is tied directly to the products for which they seek a ban. Merely cited tha fact that these products do contain asbestos fibers and they cited the fact that asbestos fibers in such situations have been linked to lung disease. BON - 01466  191 1 To quote your ova staff, we questioned whether 2 the evidence presented in the petition is sufficient to 3 show that these substances say cause substantial personal 4 injury and substantial illness during or as an approximate 5 result of any customary or reasonably foreseeable handling or 6 uee. 7 To wrap that up* the instances of single or short 8 term exposure, and this is from another briefing package/ 9 to asbestos, cited in the petition, can be taken as 10 evidence as a possible but not necessarily probable cause- II effect relation. 12 However, by themselves they would not stand up 13 to statistical sarutiny in predicting a correlation be 14 tween brief expcsure to asbestos and a latter development 15 of cancer caused by suoh exposure. 16 Substantial evidence has been presented here 17 that the oonaercial use data on which the petitioners base 18 their allegations is substantially higher than that of all 19 other investigators, including OSHA compliance inspections. 20 Zt has also been shown that consumer exposure to 21 low, and short duration, and when averaged over a year 22 or more, are not distinguishable from ambient background. 23 Mo know of no evidence that such casual, low 24 exposure represents any hazards, so that the question that 25 remains becomes one of a banning action based on the BON - 01467 192 1 2- existence of a possible bat not proven rink# which if 3 they exist at all# differs only slightly from 2ero. 4 Too are probably aware that this question of 5 the regulation of carcinogens is a major issue today before 6" virtually all of the government regulatory agencies. The 7 ffDA saccharin ban has received wide publicity* o s h a is 8 deeply Involved in a proposal.for generic regulation 9 approach to carcinogens. Hearing on bensone are now in 10 progress 11 All of this activity does, not help .to find' . 12 answers to our immediate problems# but at least we*re in good 13 company. The problem we face originates in a so called 14 one hit theory of carcinogenesis. The simplest outline# 15 this theory holds that a- single molecule of carcinogen 16 is capable of causing cancer# particularly to susceptible 17 persons. 18 If enough people are exposed# susceptible persons or small number of persons will ooatraot cancer} if 19 20 follows# therefore# that there is no absolutely safe or 21 sero risk level for a carcinogen. And such a material 22 should# depending on the statutory authority of the 23 agency involved# be banned,severely restrict# replaced# controlled to the limits of detection# and so forth. 24 It is useful to examine this theory in the light 25 of where there is general agrooaent and where responsible BON -01468 193 1 opinions diverge, vre believe that virtually all medical 2 authorities would agree, first, the wide range of dosages 3 4 for a carcinogen where a dose response relationship exists; the larger the dose the greater percentage of those exposed 5 will contract cancer, and vice versa* 6 Second, in exposed populations, even substantial 7 exposure levels, large proportions of those exposed, do 8 not contract cancer*. As the dosage goes down, the average 9 tine to the appearance of the tumor increases. This 10 I t principle was illustrated by the extrapolation formula : I've underlined in the Bayard specifications discussed 12 previously* !3 Medical disagreement occurs over what happens 14 when the dosage is decreased to vary low levels. There 15 Is one school of thought, and this, was embraced by moat of . 16 the regulatory agencies, there is no completely safe level - 17 that exists. 18 There are other responsible authorities who con 19 tend a dosage level is reached whan the body's defense 20 mechanisms can effectively combat the altered cell, and 21 cancerous growth does not occur. 22 supporters of this position cite the low level 23 presence of certain metals and hormones that are essential 24 to the human body in trace amounts, that at higher levels 25 are carcinogens. BON-01469 194 1 Unfortunately, there is no way to demonstrate 2 the correctness of either view* These is a background 3 level of cancer in both an and experimental animals. 4 As the dosage in the corresponding number of cancers S decrease 6 One point of view is that the occasional cancer 7 from the specific agent still occurs, and cannot be a distinguished from background while the other is that 9 the added eases do not occur. 10 The existence of the background makes it impos 11 sible to determine vhioh view is correct* These views 12 can be partially resolved with a model of -- discussed 13' previously. A low exposure may cause cancer, but if 14 the time to tumor is 150 years, fox example, then expeated is- 'life span of 70 years is for all practical purposes a ie. safe threshold exposure, at. least until life expectancy 17 approaches 150 years* 18 However, since there is no provable scientific 19 answer to this risk question, we are really left with a 20 socio-political, rather than a wholly -- than a scientific 21 decision to consider. The fundamental question, then, 22 is whether a total absence of risk approach to regulation 23 is appropriate, or more particularly will be acceptable 24 to society. 25 In oar lives we undergo n succession of risks, BON -01470 195 \ same knowingly end none unknowingly. The American people 2 have always indicated a willingness to take risks as 3 evidenced by such things ee Widespread use of the auto 4 nobile sacking, alcohol and proper diet, even the hone 5 as it is today. 6 We believe that the sero risk concept begins a7. to iapaat on jobs as a way of life of a substantial nunber of people will not be acceptable and will have to be- 9 Modified to balance risks against benefits in a realistic, 10 fashion. This sort of balance, rather than regulation 12 by cliche, is a carcinogen, so ban it, should be. applied 13 here. The benefits fron tho continued use in asbestos 14 and tape joint compounds is substantial, and the risk is 15 either sero or so small it cannot be'distinguished from 16 sero. 17 And I will summarise, skipping the next couple of 18 pages that X gave earlier, X would like to summarise the 19 Union Carbide Corporation*s position and expand on the 20 approach presented in ay letter of July 14th, 1977, which 21 we believe is a reasonable alternative to the baa proposed 22 by the Commission. 23 First, products under consideration have been 24 in widespread use for about 35 years, end we know ofno 25 evidence that any consumer has ever been harmed by that. BON - 01471 196 t z No unreasonable risk to the consumer has been demonstrated 3 by the petitioners or by the staff. Consumer exposure -- 4 second* consonar exposure data have been presented and 5 bow that the exposures are both low and brief* and when averaged over a year are not distinguishable from the 6 7 general background. The risk from auoh exposure* if indeed any risk 8 9 does exist, is extraaely snail and based on the extrapolation 10 of an unproven and improvable theory. Third, we question whether it is appropriate, and 1! 12 whether the act gives the Coanlssion the authority to ban a product on the basis of a hypothetical or theoretical 13 risk, or on the basis of an absolute cero risk requirement. 14 fourth, vs do not agree that a reasonable product 15 safety standard cannot ba promulgated to protect the 16 public adequately from any unreasonable risk and recommend 17 the following approach. 18 (A) limit the amount of asbestos that can be 19 used in spackling and taping compounds to two percent by 20 weight of the dry formulation. This is sufficient to gain 21 the benefits of the use of asbestos and serves to limit 22 the potential for exposure. 23 It differs from the one percent of total 24 formulation, including water suggested previously, in that 25 moro closely defines the content of the final product in bo n - 01472 197 1 the fora that is sanded. 2 It is also a level where analysis is more 3 4 reasonable. (B) require a warning label, including proper 5 work procedures, on all compounds under the jurisdiction 6 of the Commission whether packaged for -direct consumer or 7 commercial usa in consumer contact. Shis turns to good 8 advantage and widespread public awareness of a possible 9 potential hasards of asbestos to encourage that the product TO bo treated according to directions and not abused. 11 12 It also gives the user a choice. Thank you very much for- the opportunity to speak 13 to the Commission, we will be happy to try and answer all 14 the questions that we haven't answered so far. 15 CHAX8KAW BTlMGTOBt Commissioner Kushner. 16 COMMISSIONER XOSHHBRj Just one comment, with 17 out oommenting on the reasonableness of the entire set 18 of suggestions that you make, X just would comment on one 19 thing on the last page, page 14. 20 Ton say -that it is also a level that is two 21 percent, where analysis is more reasonable. X guess it's 22 a little bit more reasonable in the sense that you'll 23 see more asbestos, but the issue of determining whether 24 you have 1.9 percent or 2,1 percent is no easier -- 25 MR. RHODBSj Well -- BO N -01473 198 t COMMISSIONER KUSHNBHj -- than the daoision that z would need to bo made in the event of a ban. But I 3 really don't think that that helps the situation. That's 3 just a constant. 5 HR. RHODES Okay if you're going to he looking 6- at zero, or very close to zero, vitb all these asphibole 7 chips in itf you're probably going to have to go to 8. transaission electron sierosoopy. 9 If you're talking two percent or one percent or 10 something, yon can back off from that and X don't think 11 you're going to have probleas with trying to find aero. 12 COMMISSIONER XOSBNBRt I agree it's very diffi 13 cult to find zero hut x suspect that one is simply trading 14 problems, if one mere to tako your suggestion, just from 15 the standpoint of the analytical problems. 16 MR. RHODESt Hell, an analysis at a two. percent 17 level, in general, is easier to do than an analysis at 18 tvoHsentha of a percent, 200ths, 2000ths. 19 COMMISSIONER KDSBHER fes, but onoe again the 20 precision of any of these techniques, is not going to he 21 good enough for you to be able to distinguish with the kind 22 of certainty that you'd like the difference between 1.9 and 23 2.1. That's the only point I'm trying to maka. 24 MR. RHODESt Well, I wouldn't disagree with that, 25 really. BON-01474 199 1 COMM1SSIONER KUSHHSRt Of course, the importance 2 of knowing the difference between 1.9 and 2.1 is -- 3 MR. RHODESt Well, it's the difference between 4 being in and out of compliance -5 COMMISSIONER KUSSNBRl Nell, I suspect -- 6 ME. RHODES i-- vith some proposed standard. 7 COMMISSIONER K0SBH2R: X suspect you'd have to 8 do some of the things that OSHA is working on now where 0 you have a co-efficient of variation, and you run the 10 analysis and it has a set precision and you decide whether 11 you're in and out of compliance, depending on the certain 12 of application -- 13 MR. RHODES Hot aren't those principles equally 14 valid to the sero or near aero -- well, as you go down 15 towards aero, there's a tendency to the outer limits to 16 beeoae such larger. 17 Certainly a much larger percentage than the 18 nuabet you're trying to get & reading on. 19 COMMISSIONER KOSHKBRt Nell, X don't think we need 20 to -- 21 22 MR. RHODES No. COMMISSIONER KtJSHNBR: ! J i -- pursue this much further. i 23 CHAIRMAN BJfIHGTONr la one of your concerns 24 contamination, just generally? 25 MR. RHODES: As an asbestos supplier, we're not BON - 01475 200 f r#lly that concerned, but we Salt that -- 2 3 CHAIRMAN BTIHGTO: That would be your last -- 4 following up with Commissioner Xushner in terms of per centage, t mean, am X reading something Into the -- 5 MR. R800SS: Our feeling -6 CHAXRKAII_&YXHG90N -- between the H a a s when you 7 start talking about background asbestos, when yon start 8 talking about all this type of thing, are you saying 9 indirectly or hinting at the possibility that thcre really 10 isn't such a thing as an asbestos free compound of the 11 figure? 12 MR. RHODES: I'm not hinting, I'm coming right 13 out and saying it. I think, you can take any compound on 14 the market and feed it into Mount Sinai, and they don't 15 find some asbestos in it. And X think they'll be* right, 16 it'll be there. 17 Row, you have to look long enough and hard (8 enough, it's everywhere, and the broader you make your 19. definition of asbestos, the easier it is to find it. 20 X think your staff probably has got some thoughts on that, 21 having listened to the problem at the n b s . 22 There is a raging controversy on what is asbestos 23 aud what's a mineral fiber. Xt'o .been going on for 24 years. Crysatile is not that hard to pin down. 25 B O N -01476 201 1 z CHAIRMAN BYXNGTOSt Wall, then you've also got 3 * raging controversy in the nodical profession as to whether that really makes any difference and whether one's 4 5 not just as bad as the other* MR. RHODESt Yes, you have, that's quite .right* . 6 And what diaensiena are appropriate. 7. CHAIRMAN HYINGYON * Okay. 8 9 COMMISSIONER PITThBt Just a couple of questions. When you were explaining the desirable feature and property 10 of asbestos in causing this -- X forgot the words you used, 11 but this kind of sheathing that allowed it to be spread 12 13 on easily and then sort of eone back together. 14 MR. MODESi Yes. COMMISSIONER P.XTYABt Do you attribute that to IS 16 the physical, geoaetric properties or the chemical properties of that particular find? 17 MR. RHODES * Basically it's the physical proper 18 ties of the fiber combined with the tendency to flocculate, 19 which is 1-- 20 COMMISSIONER PITYLE: Is that particular to that 21 particular fiber or is that all fibers are that? 22 MR. RHODES: Generally common to fibrous materials. 23 COMMISSIONER PIYTIB: So you expect to get that 24 in the substitutes, that same kind of a property, and 25 it would still be roughly the same -- BON-01477 202 1 HR, RHODESt Xt would be the same sort of phe 2 nomenon, yea. it would vary In degroe with a number of 3 partiles and the else and dimensions.and the surface 4 charge. 5 COMMISSIONER PXVTDBt So you do n 't think -- * you 6 think then it's peculiar. It* not peculiar to the surface 7 chemistry of the fiber as to why that particular fiber is 8 better than other materials to get that-fleoeulatien, 9 whatever you used. 10 MR. RHODESt What -- my judgement is -- 11 COMMISSIONER PITTLBi Would you spell that word 12 for the record, l want to look it up- later. 13 HR. RHODES * Flocculation? 14 COMMISSIONER PITT.E* YS . 15 HR. RBOOBSI X don't know whether I can spell it 16 or not. 17 COMMISSIONER PITTIiBt Okay, X just want to make 18 sure -- 19 MR. RHODES: My secretary does most of my spelling 20 for me. 21 COMMISSIONER PXTTDBs All right. 22 MR. RHODES: I believe I t 's f-l-o-c"c-u-l-a-t- 23 i-o-n. 24 COMMISSIONER PITTLE: Z wanted to make sure 25 that's the right word you'd use in mired company. BON -01478 203 ! MS RHODES* You have to watch your pronuncia 2 3 tion* 4 COMMISSIONER P W S L B t X just want to get from 5 you whether or not you oonsidar that desirable fiber because of ite surface chemistry or because of -- 6 7 MR.RHODES* Primarily because of geometry. COMMISSIONER PXTTLH: Xt'C geometry* 8 MR* RHODES* Tee* 9 COMMISSIONER PITTREt (Then one of your competitors 10 was in not so long ago, in an open meeting here, X had 1! asked on the question of whether they had a company 12 policy as to bow they educated their own customers about 13 the hazards of whatever, the potential hazards there are, t4 or the hazards of using asbestos in consumer products, 15 and they sent us back some answers as to how they deal 16 with their customers, the rather aggressive positions 17 they say they take if people didn't violate that. 18 Do you -- does your company have such a policy? 19 HR* RHODES: We have -- we started with labels 20 on our bags in 1968. We're late in the game* 21 We provide information, we provide -- 22 COMMISSIONER PITTI.B: My question -- 23 MR* RHODES: No, w e -- veil, upon request is 24 academic these days, and has been for the last four or 25 five years. You don't talk to anyone, who is a user or BON - 01479 204 1 potential user of asbestos these days without some 2 3 discussion of the regulations, the health hazards, that 4 sort of thing* 5 COMMISSIONER PXTTRB Has your policy ever evolved into a document? 6 MR. RHODES He do not have a document in the 7 .formality that Johns~Hanvillo does# but we have a whole 8 series of thing that we send the customers* We also do 9 a lot of dust counting to help them see that their-- in 10 answer to your question* we have a very active policy to It educate and to warn. 12 COMMISSIONER PXTTX.S* Would it be possible to 13 get a copy of those materials? X mean* if X were a 14 potential customer you could tell me what X should watch 15 out for when X make products to sell. 16 MR* RHODESf X presume it would, yes. 17 COMMISSIONER PJTTDBt X mean, if it*s available 18 it would be very helpful. 19 MR. RHODESt Yes,w can get something. 20 COMMISSIONER PITILS: One thing X've learned is 21 that the experts, many of the experts in the field, are 22 the people who manufacture it. And whatever advice you 23 give is going to be very helpful to us. 24 That's all. CHAIRMAN BYINGTON: Yes. The staff has a few B O N -01480 1 questions/ t understand/ at the moment* 2 Ka. SAV5EH I am Ron Waveen of the office of 3 General Counsel of the environmental Protection Agency. 4 Z refer to page 9 in Ur. Rhodes* statement where he saya 5 that we know of no evidence that each casual/ low ex 6 7 posure represents any hasards, that the question becomes one of the banning actions based on the existence of a G possible bat not proven risk/ which if It exists at all 9 differs only slightly from *ero. 10 Prom EPA's perspective/ S would just like to 11 introduce into the record the comments on our asbestos 12 13 regulations concerning the demolition of buildings. 14 Since 1973 the agency has provided that before such build 15 ings are demolished/ asbestos insulation on pipes and elsewhere in the building has to he wetted end removed 16 from the demolition takes place. 17 When those amendments/ when these regulations 13 19 are -** were emended in *74 and *75/ the demolition industry raised a concern that they bad had all along, that short 20 term exposure to asbestos were not risky. 21 SPA disagreed with that and has all along, 22 specifically 40 Pedoral Register 48295 on October 14th, 23 1975, when it promulgated these amendments to the demolition 24 standard it noted soma new studies which indicated that 25 single short torn exposure to asbestos are significant. BON -01481 206 1 Ths involved one day inhalation tudis of rats which EPA. 2 has need all along as evidence supporting its standard. 3 The only point i fd wish to sake is our agency 4 has been concerned all along with short tern exposure, 5 and although our statutory authority, X think, does differ 6 froa yours, we IwvjLsot hesitated to take action to ban 7 asbestos, sot to speak', in this context. S X just want to stake sure that the record reflects 9 10 that. CRAXRHAB BrxtfCOKf Z appreciate it. 11 MR. RHODES I X think X indicated that that was 12 the poeition that a number of the regulatory agencies have 13 taken. 14 MR. HAVKBMt Yes, and again X recognise that 15 our statutory authority lets ue go after substances such 16 as asbestos, if they nay cause or contribute to the health - 17 hasards, and it differs naybe a little bit. 18 But there are studies -- 19 CHAIRMAN BYINGTOMj Me do appreciate that and 20 the subnission of that for the record too. Okay. Another 21 -- go ahead. 22 MR.RHODESt X would also suggest if you calculate 23 out on the rat's life span, what proportion of -- how 24 that cospares to the proportion of the hnan life, as 25 far as -- what-I' saying is that oee day exposure to BON - 01482 207 1 the rat,calculates oat to considerably more than that in z a basan lifa spaa* 2 don't pant to grot into the nodical 3 hassle on this thing* X don't have a nodical background, 4 hut z do present that aa the way things get passed around. 5 One day becomes hazardous because it was 6 hazardous to the rat. 7 CBAX8MBM BYXBGT0V Okay* there was another 8 ' question over here. Mr. Bigio. 9 KB. BIGIOt fes* X had a couple questions that 10 arose prinarily during the course of your talk this 11. aoraing. There has bean s lot of mention on your part, and 12 others* of the background* the natural background of 13 asbestos. 14 Vow* x*n sure you've looked into this for some 13 tine, and would you say that in part this background is 16 not natural in the classic sense as we would usa it* but 17 has beau -- Is manaade or created by industrial, comarcial 18 users of asbestos? 19 MB. RHODES i X will aake a couple coaments on 20. that. First of all X think there's a paper by Sid Speel 21 and another author from Johns-Manville who have looked into that quite extensively. and there's no question that some of it has been around for thousands of years. X believe they found it in the glaciers. BON - 01483 208 I Ae far as hoy fast it*a expanding, how much it's 2 growing -- 3 MR. BIGXOi Ho, I'm really talking about the levels, 4 Z mean, Vlxat you would call the background levels today 5 as opposed to what it night have been say betore the 6 industrial age. 7 MR, RHODES X can't answer that question* 8 MR.BIGIO* I'm sura you can't answer that, but to9 Z was wondering if you had some feeling about what contri bution or widespread use' of asbestos has made to the so . 11 called background level. 12 . And of course, the immediate corollary to that 13 question is one way of getting the background down to 14 start to elininate certain unessential or unnecessary uses. 15 Pc you -- 16 KR.RHODES* Well, X would have to make my 17 original comment, I don't know what the growing background, 13 whether it's growing, how much is being lost back into 19, the soil, you know, X don't know the overall -- 20 But X would comment, X would agree with one of 21 the comments that several people have made. The Kiosn 2 2 , optical procedure is a poor way to measure background. 23 On the other hand, if you're trying to get a 24 comparison with what's going on in the immediate vicinity, 25 it really is the only way we have to do it vithout BON - 01484 209 1. going into a long, involved transmission electron micros-* 2 copy approach. 3 So the reliability of the background numbers, 4 I got it somewhere. I looked op the NIOSH conclusion and 5 here's what -- their conclusion after looking at all the 6 data they had a year or so ago, was something less than 7 .01 fibers, and they really didn't know specifically what 8 it was or how to convert that to .anagrams per cubic meter. 9 Z can give you the reference on that, it's a NIOSH criteria 10 document of '76 or so on the l/10th fiber for asbestos. It NR. BXGXOt the second question X had, most 12 of the discussion today has been about the instantaneous 13 short term exposure, as for instance during the few hours 14 or tha day, that a particular job might be going on. 15 Do you havo any data, or have you looked into 16 at all the question of the recycling contamination, in 17 other words you've put this asbestos fibpr into the 18 house, dwelling, school, whatever it may be. Presumably 19 it's going to be there a long time and can be stirred up 20 repeatedly. 21 so you have any data on that, as to what the 22 secondary exposures might be? 23 MR. RH0D8S: Well, on the first test that we 24 ran, we ran a day in the house before, and wa ran a day 25 afterward, and we couldn't find within the precision BON-01485 210 ! 2 of th optical method, you couldn't find any difference. 3 MS, BXGI0: Did you sake any attempt to stir up the dust or -- 4 MR. RHODES* Well# VS vacuumed before, we '5 vacuum cleaned after. 6 HR. BXGXOt Before and after -- 7 HR. RHODESt Hell, ve started -- 8 MR. BXGXOt And you took measures during the 9 vacuuming. 10 MR. RHODES; Measured it right after the vacuum 11 12 ing* right. HR.BlGIOi And you found essentially -- 13 MR. RH0DB8( 005, 003* 006, something of that 14 nature. 15 1 only recorded one number because 16 ve just can't get a better number on the method, whether 17 it's 005, plus or minus* 05. Me did the best we could 18 with that. 19 HR. BIGXOt Cfcay, thank you, those wore my two 20 questions. 21 CHAIRMAN B7XNGT0N: Okay. Shacter. 22 HS. SHACTERi bo you manufacture any compounds, 23 patching compound that contains asbestos? 24 MR. RHODES * HO. 25 MS. SHACTERI Thank you, vary much. BON - 01486 211 1 z CHAIRHAH BYZKOSOHt Right there. HR. BAYARD* My name la Steven Bayard, from 5 4 the Consumer Product safety Commission. Harry, Z just 5 vanted to point one thing out to yon* maybe a couple of things. 6 7 But on page 6 you spent a lot of time discussing the risk based on the model which me used, and the one 8 phrase that I want to dcfal with is on page six, in the 9 TO middle, you said that you*re going to nse this model, which is heavily biased towards predicting a high risk. 11 12 Kell, in fact the model is heavily biased at consumer levels to predicting a very, very low risk, and 13 I want you to keep this in mind* When 1 made a presenta 14 tion to the commissioners at one point, X compared the 15 models that we used, that we used eventually, finally, with 16 another model which was a single bit model that you've 17 also diseussed. 18 And we showed that the single hit model would 19 predict a risk which was 250 times higher than that model, 20 that we did use. 21 The Commission -believes, at least X believe, 22 that this model- that we used is more correct, in fact, 23 as you point out later on there is a time to dose, and 24 time to tumor, based on dose. 25 HR. RHODES: Yes. B O N -01487 212 1 z MR. B&YRADt That tho lower dose will indicate a higher tiate until tumor* Bat, still, at the low consumer 3 levels, and-you* ve had sone of your analysts loot at this, 4 you'll find out that this model falls off very, very 5 rapidly In terns of the type of dose and the type of 6 response. 7 SO thet -** 8 HR. RHODES Palls right off the table at the 9 10 lowest -- HR. BAYARDt Very, very rapidly, and -- T1 MR. RHODES t X ran out of table. 12 HR. BAYARD> Yea. What I 'm saying is it's a 13 very, very conservative type model in predicting risk 14 because it's very, very low risk, at low consumer levels. 15 X can't imagine a model that would predict a 16 lower risk. So that when we ease up with a figure off 10 17 deaths per aillion excess, we said even at this minimum 18 figure that's still pretty high. He just didn't like it. 19 That's all X'a pointing ont to you. 20 21 HR. RHODES: Hell, all I'm doing is using the nodal with numbers which we believe are more representative 22 of the consumer, exposure, ana illustrating what it 23 says. 24 How if you wish -- 25 CHAIRMAN BYINGTOS, Okay. s o N - 01468 213 I MR. ERODES* X d o n 't want to argue the model, 2 I ' not a statistician, I 'm really not competent to. 3 CHAIRMAN BZXKGTOKt All right, well we want to 4 thank yon very much. 5 m e . r r o d s s * okay. 6 CHAIRMAN BYIHOTOMt For coming down. 7 Me want to thank all of the other people who 8 have participated. 9 Again, X remind everyone that interested 10 persons, including those speaking today, may submit written 11 comments and other related information to the Office of 12 the Secretary, on both the proposed bans as well as 13 the issues discussed, until August the 29th, 1977. 14 MR. RHODES* Can X ask a final question? Do X IS owe yon anything now, or have X answered the questions 16 or -- 17 COMMISSIONER PXTT&B* Thor are some materials j 18 you said you would provide. j 19 MR. Rh o d e s * okay, thank you. 20 CHAIRMAN BYIHGTON; He can check our notes to 21 see if there's anything. / Thank you very much, we stand adjourned. {Whereupon, at 4:00 p.m. the meeting was ad journed.) t BON - 01489