Document 93avRx9BObvYeJ7Ydz9m3adBe

STATE OF ALABAMA IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR ETOWAH (Transferred from Calhoun County, COUNTY Alabama) SABRINA ABERNATHY, et al., Plaintiffs, versus MONSANTO COMPANY, et al., CIVIL ACTION NO. CV-2001-832 ^Consolidated) De f endant s. / DEPOSITION OF DOUGLAS EUGENE RICH The deposition of DOUGLAS EUGENE RICH was taken before Deborah Salers Garrett, Certified Shorthand Reporter, Registered Professional Reporter, as Commissioner, commencing at 11:30 a.m. on January 3, 2002, by the Plaintiffs, at the law offices of Fite & Miller, Suite 400, SouthTrust Bank Building, Anniston, Alabama, pursuant to the stipulations set forth herein. Regional Reporting Service, Inc. 755 Walnut Street Gadsden, Alabama 35901-0755 HARTOLDMON0032064 2 1 APPEARANCES 2 For the Plaintiffs: 3 CHARLES CUNNINGHAM, Esq. Morrissey Building, Suite 200 4 304 West Liberty Street Louisville, Kentucky 40202 5 For the Defendants: 6 LAWRENCE J. MYERS, Esq. 7 SMITH, HELMS, MULLIS & MOORE 1355 Peachtree Street, NE, Suite 750 8 Atlanta, Georgia 30309 9 10 INDEX 1 1 Page 12 S tipulations 3 1 3 Reporter's Certificate 86 14 1 5 EXA MINATIONS 16 1 7 Witness: DOUGLAS EUGENE RICH Page 1 8 By Mr. Cunningham 4 19 20 No exhibits were marked for identification, 2 1 offered or attached as exhibits hereto. 22 23 REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032065 3 1 STIPULATIONS 2 IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED by the 3 parties, through their respective counsel, 4 that the deposition of DOUGLAS EUGENE RICH may 5 be taken before Deborah Salers Garrett, CSR, 6 RPR, as Commissioner and Notary Public, 7 Alabama at Large, at Anniston, Alabama, on 8 January 3, 2002, at 11:30 a.m. 9 IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED that the 1 0 signature to and reading of the deposition by 11 the witness is waived, the deposition to have 12 the same force and effect as if full 1 3 compliance were had with all laws and rules of 1 4 Court relating to the taking of depositions. 1 5 IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED that it 1 6 shall not be necessary for any objections to 1 7 be made by counsel to any questions except as 1 8 to form or leading questions and that counsel 1 9 may make objections and assign grounds at the 2 0 time of trial or at the time said deposition 2 1 is offered in evidence or prior thereto. 2 2 IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED that notice 2 3 of filing by the Commissioner is waived. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032066 4 1 STATE OF ALABAMA. ANNISTON. JANUARY 3, 2002 2 3 DOUGLAS EUGENE RICH, 4 after having been first duly sworn, was 5 examined and testified as follows: 6 7 EXAMINATION 8 BY MR. CUNNINGHAM: 9 Q. Sir, my name is Charlie Cunningham. I 1 0 represent a lot of folks in a lawsuit 1 1 filed against Monsanto Chemical 12 Corporation. I'm here to ask you some 1 3 questions today about factual 14 information you might have that will 1 5 help the parties understand the issues 1 6 in the case. Have you ever been 17 18 A. involved in a deposition before? Yes. ' 1 9 Q. You understand the lady to your left is 2 0 going to take down what you say. And I 2 1 want to give you a couple of unusual 2 2 characteristics about me that you may 2 3 not have encountered in your previous REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032067 5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 2 2 A. 2 3 Q. depositions just so you know about them. First off, I have a bad habit of asking you a question and you will give me an answer, and before you have finished, I will either think you have finished and go on to something else:or I'll have this burst of genius and fire off another question and you haven't had a chance to finish you first answer. If I do that, please understand we do want to get a complete answer. Just let me know I have done that. Secondly I have a bad habit of saying a question, and it sounds like I know just exactly what I'm talking about when I really don't have a clue . So if I say something and it doesn't sound right to you, that' s what matters. Okay ? And you let me know that that do e s n' t make sense o r you think I ' ve got it wrong. Okay? Okay. Okay. Before we get started, what other REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032068 6 1 2 A. 3 4 Q. 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 A. 13 14 Q. 15 16 17 18 19 20 2 1 A. 2 2 Q. 23 A. depositions have you given before? It was one in this type thing, about PCBs . All right. There has been a lot of litigation over this. Do you recall if it might have been involving the insurance coverage with Monsanto or possibly what is called the Owens case, which was in federal court, or the lake cases as they are sometimes referred to, Dyar v Monsanto? I have no idea. I don't remember. MR. MYERS: It was the Owens case. Well, then, this will be easy, because they had intelligent lawyers taking depositions in that one, and it is just me on this one. Let's start off with a real easy one. Would you give us your full name, please? Douglas Eugene Rich. That's is R-i-c-h? Right. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032069 7 1 Q. 2 A. 3 Q. 4 A. 5 6 Q. 7 8 9 A. 1 0 Q. 1 1 A. 1 2 Q. 1 3 A. 14 1 5 Q. 16 1 7 A. 1 8 Q. 1 9 A. 2 0 Q. 21 A. 2 2 Q. 23 Where do you live? Do you want street address or just town? Both? 101 Sabina, S-a-b-i-n-a, Drive, Southeast, Jacksonville. And I'd like to go back in time to other places you have lived. How long have you lived on Sabina Drive? I just moved there the first of October. Before that where didyou reside? The address? Just location. I lived out of Jacksonville, about five miles, the Pleasant Valley community. Okay. How long did you live in Pleasant Valley? Thirty years. Okay. And before that? I lived in Oxford. Ever live in Munford? No . I was on a real string withMunford there for a while. Okay. And Oxford REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032070 8 1 2 3 4 A. 5 6 Q. 7 A. 8 9 Q. 1 0 A. 1 1 Q. 12 A. 13 14 Q. 1 5 A. 16 1 7 Q. 18 A. 1 9 Q. 20 A. 2 1 Q. 22 2 3 A. isn't exactly a big town, but my sense is there are neighborhoods. What part of Oxford did you live in? I lived at Coleman Road and Greenbrier Road. It may be in Anniston now. How close was that to Snow Creek? Well, it runs by the mall. Probably a couple of miles. East or west ? East. Before that where did you live? I lived in Pinson, Alabama, north of Birmingham. Pinson? P-i-n-s-o-n. MR. MYERS: That's a new one. Is that where you grew up? No . Where did you grow up? Pell City. I've heard of that one. That's over toward the lake? Uh-huh (indicating yes). REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032071 9 1 Q. 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 A. 6 7 Q. 8 A. 9 Q. 10 A. 1 1 Q. 12 A. 1 3 Q. 14 15 A. 1 6 Q. 17 18 A. 1 9 Q. 20 A. 2 1 Q. 2 2 A. 2 3 Q. So what's the closest you have actually lived to the plant itself? Ox f o rd. And that is a good four or five miles? As a crow flies, yeah, four or five miles . Mr. Rich, are you married? Yes. What is your wife's name? Fay. Maiden name? Pugh. Have you ever been married to anyone else? No . Do you know if her PCB levelhas ever been tested? No . Do you have any children? Yes. What are their names? Brian, Robin, and Barry. Okay. And I'm assuming Brian and Barry REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032072 10 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 A. 5 6 Q. 7 8 A. 9 Q. 1 0 A. 11 ' 12 1 3 Q. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 2 1 A. 2 2 Q. 23 use Rich as a last name? Uh-huh (indicating yes) . Does Robin Rich - No. Her last name is Mulloy, M-u-l-l-o-y. Okay. Do you know if any of them have had their PCB levels checked? No . And all of them do okay in school? Uh-huh (indicating yes) . MR. MYERS: You need to say yes so she can take that down. If I were to ask you for a list of all the adults, say above the age of eighteen, residents of Etowah County who are not convicted felons and could therefore qualify as jurors in Etowah County who are related to you by blood or marriage, would that be a long list or short list? It would be short. Okay. Would you tell me those folks, please? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032073 11 1 A. 2 3 Q. 4 A. 5 Q 6 A. 7 8 Q 9 10 11 12 13 A . 1 4 Q. 1 5 A. 16 17 1 8 Q. 19 20 A. 2 1 Q. 22 23 Well, this is my son's ex -wife and her peop 1e . They live in Etowah County. Is this Brian or Barry's ex-wife? Brian. What is her name ? She has remarried. It is Barbara Calvin, I guess, C-a-l-v- i - n . I don ' t guess we have to worry too much that she would be biased for Monsanto just by virtue of having once been married to the son of a former Monsanto worker. I wouldn 't think so. Do you have a grandchild by her? Two. Well, let me back up. I have one by her. My son remarried, and I have one by his second wife. So you have some ongoing contact with her ? Yes. I would like to find out who you have spoken to anyone before today in kind of getting ready to come in here. Aside REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032074 12 1 2 3 4 5 A. 6 7 8 9 10 1 1 Q. 12 13 14 A . 1 5 Q. 16 17 18 19 2 0 A. 21 2 2 Q. 23 from talking to Mr. Myers, is there anyone else you have talked to before coming in today about what you were going to talk about here? No. Mike Kelly called me just to make sure I was going to be here today. He didn't know about the snow. He called this morning. He also called and set it up, when I would be here. But other than him, no, sir. Had you talked to Mike Kelly before for the purposes of determining you would be a witness in the case? No . Do you have any idea why you might have been listed as a potential witness in the case? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. You can answer. Because I worked there, I suppose, in that department. How many people do you think there are still alive today that worked for some REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032075 13 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 A. 9 Q. 10 11 12 13 14 1 5 A. 1 6 Q. 17 18 19 20 A. 2 1 Q. 22 A. 2 3 Q. period of time in the Aroclor department out at that facility here in Anniston? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. That is awfully broad. MR. CUNNINGHAM: I intended it to be so. MR. MYERS: If you know, tell him. It would just be a guess. Let me put it to you simply. Do you think that number, if we went back and went through some records, assuming they exist, and got in the phone book to see who was still alive, there would be a handful, dozens, hundreds? It wouldbe dozens. Did -- Aside from speaking with folks or in your case not speaking with folks, did you look at anything before coming over today within the last few weeks - No . -- tryingto refresh your recollection? No . Then I'm going to assume that everything REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032076 14 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 1 7 A. 1 8 Q. 19 20 21 2 2 A. 23 you tell us here today is just your own independent recollection, and that is fine. That is what we want. If when I ask you something it triggers something in your mind that you did look at something or you read something and you were told something and you are now going to tell me that, that is great too. I'd like that as well. Just let me know that is where it came from so we know . Okay. I want to talk for a moment about work you did other than at Monsanto, gainful employment you have had elsewhere before we get into what you did at Monsanto. Okay. And maybe even before that, why don't we start with your education. That will lead probably into your occupation. So tell me about your educational history? I finished high school at Pell City High School. That is the only education. I REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032077 15 1 2 Q. 3 4 A. 5 6 Q. 7 A. 8 9 10 11 12 13 1 4 Q. 15 16 17 18 19 20 2 1 A. 22 23 didn't go to college. Okay. Then what did you do when you finished high school? I drove a truck for a while here in Annis t on. Now, what kind of truck was this? It was Anniston Max Sales. They are out of business now. I would go around and spot trailers at foundries and pick up a full load and bring them back into the yard. And the road drivers would carry them out to Detroit or wherever they was going. Mostly soil pipe. Okay. Now, when you say soil pipe, I think of soil pipe as being basically terra cotta clay pipe. But my sense is that around here when you talk about soil pipe they are talking about cast iron and ductible pipe. What were you hauling? I can't answer that. I just picked up the trailers. I don't now how it is made. I don't have any idea how they REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032078 16 1 2 Q 3 A. 4 Q 5 6 7 8 A. 9 Q. 1 0 A. 11 12 Q. 13 A. 14 15 1 6 Q. 17 18 A. 1 9 Q. 20 21 A. 2 2 Q. 23 make it. They just call it soil pipe. You don't even know what color it was ? Oh , yeah. 11 was black. That helps us . So you wouldn't have any clue what chemicals -- You have no idea what chemicals might have been used in that process ? No . What's the second job that you had? I worked with my daddy-in-law drilling wells, a well driller. For your father-in-law? Uh-huh (indicating yes). MR. MYERS: Yes? THE WITNESS: Yes, yes. And you did that in this area, northeast Alabama ? Yes. And there was water wells you were drilling? Yes, sir. And did you have some kind of a motorized auger? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032079 17 1 A. 2 Q. 3 A. 4 Q. 5 A. 6 Q. 7 8 9 A. 10 11 12 Q. 13 A. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Yes, sir. How deep might you go? It was the machine that drilled it. On the back of the truck? Uh-huh (indicating yes), on a big truck. You used a drill stem and drill down four or five feet and put another one on ? No, sir. It was a cable type drill then. They didn't have rotary then, a cable drill. How did that work? It was a large drill stem with a bit on the bottom of it. It weighed probably fifteen hundred, two thousand pounds, with a cable. And this machine turned this big wheel and made that -- I don't know exactly how to explain it. But it made it go up and down. And it would just hit the bottom where you were drilling. And when you picked it up, it would turn a little bit and hit it again. You kept pouring water in there, REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032080 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Q. 8 9 A. 1 0 Q. 1 1 A. 12 1 3 Q. 14 15 16 1 7 A. 1 8 Q. 19 2 0 A. 21 22 23 of course, to make mud out of it. You . had to clean it out every once in a while. And if you got down and hit a little bit of water, then it usually made its own water. And it just went on down until you hit water. And did you do much drilling in Anniston like that? No, not any. Whereabouts were you doing that? It was mostly in Shelby County, some in St. Clair County. It strikes me that that kind of drilling would be pretty difficult in dirt or clay, if you had to go through a lot of clay? No. Sand was the hard part. Is that why you didn't do it over here, too much sand over here around Anniston? Well, he lived in Birmingham, Pinson. Just his work was i n that area, down around that way. He used to be i n Anniston be fore he moved there, did REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032081 1 2 3 4 Q. 5 A. 6 7 Q. 8 9 10 1 1 A. 12 13 14 Q. 15 16 17 A. 1 8 Q. 19 A. 2 0 Q. 21 22 A. 23 Q- lot around here. But when I met his daughter and married her he was living there. What's the next job you had? Merita Bread Company as a route sale sman. Okay. I can't think of anything I need to know about what you did as a route salesman for Merita, so let's move on to the next job you had. Barber Dairies. I left there and went to Barber Dairies as a milkman, and that was in Birmingham. Let's get some idea of time frames. When did you graduate from Pell City High School? 1 9 5 7. Any military service? No, sir. So by the time you were at Barber Dairy, what year are we roughly? ' 64 . Okay .. What did you do after Barber REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032082 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 A. 5 Q. 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 10 11 A. 12 13 14 Q. 15 16 17 1 8 A. 19 2 0 Q. 2 1 A. 22 23 Dairy? Monsanto. How is your health, Mr. Rich? How is it now? Yes . It is fine. Have you had some particular health problems in the past you have had to care for, other than colds and flu and that? The only problem I've ever had that N. showed up in a physical or anything, I have high iron in my blood. Okay. And have the doctors who found that talked to you and ascribed any particular symptoms you are having to this high iron? No. I had no symptoms. They just caught it through the company physical. Through the screening? Yes. And they sent me to a specialist here in Anniston. Dr. Toole or something like that was his name. There REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032083 21 1 2 3 4 Q. 5 A. 6 Q. 7 8 A. 9 Q. 10 11 12 13 A. 14 15 Q. 1 6 A. 1 7 Q. 18 19 2 0 A. 2 1 Q. 22 A. 2 3 Q. was nothing they could do about it, just recommended giving blood as often as I can. And do you give blood? Yes, sir. Do you watch your dietary intake for foods that are high in iron? Yes, sir. And the only one I know of off the top of my head is molasses, but I'm sure - what other ones do you try to steer clear of? Liver is high. Some meat is high in iron. Red meat in particular certainly? Right, right, just that type stuff. Okay. Have you had a subsequent iron test to see what your bloodlevel is these days? Every year. Is it still testing high? Yes, sir. Ever been diagnosed with any sort of REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032084 22 1 2 A. 3 Q 4 A. 5 Q 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 A. 10 Q 11 12 A. 13 Q 14 A . 15 Q 16 17 A. 18 Q 19 A. 20 21 Q 22 A . 23 cancer? No . Do you consume any alcoholic beverages No, sir. Smoke any tobacco products? No, sir. Have you ever done either of those things? Yes, sir. Well, you weren't in the Navy. So we can't blame it on the Navy. No. I smoked for several years. When did you stop smoking? 1 9 6 9. Was there a particular reason that caused you to stop in '69? Yes. What was that ? Two of them. Cigarettes went to thirty-five cents a pack. That's a good one. Compared to today it is not. And my mother gave me a little brochure she got REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032085 23 1 somewhere that showed the effects of 2 smoking on people's lungs, and it scared 3 me to death, the pictures they had in 4 there they took from autopsies and 5 things. And I quit. 6 Q. : And I take it that is why she gave it to 7 y ou ? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. She was trying to get your attention? 1 0 A. It worked. 1 1 Q. And you took that to heart? 1 2 A. Yes, sir. 1 3 Q. And you stopped smoking? 14 A . Yes, sir. 1 5 Q. Okay. Do you currently work for 1 6 Monsanto? 1 7 A. No, sir. 1 8 Q. You are retired? Did you retire from 1 9 Monsanto? 2 0 A. Well, Solutia. 2 1 Q. Okay. 2 2 A. Last June, June 1st. 2 3 Q. 6-1-01? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032086 24 1 A. 2 Q 3 4 A. 5 Q 6 7 8 9 10 A. 11 12 13 14 Q 15 16 17 18 A. 19 Q 20 21 22 23 Right. Okay. I'm assuming you still receive some financial benefits from Solutia. Yes, sir. And I don't care to delve into your personal finances, but would I be safe in assuming it is a substantial portion of your annual income that is in the form of this pension? I don't get a pension from them. I took a lump sum. So my insurance and dental is still coming through them, although I pay for it. It comes through them. Let me put it differently. Is it a subsidized premium, your health and dental? Do you think they are picking up part of the tab? I think so, yes. I'm pretty sure. And then taking this lump sum that you got from them when you retired in June, the interest that you are deriving off that, is that a substantial or significant amount or fraction of the REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032087 1 2 3 A. 4 5 6 7 Q 8 9 A. 10 Q 11 A. 12 13 Q 14 A . 15 Q 16 17 A. 18 Q 19 A. 20 Q 21 A. 22 Q 23 A. money that you are living off these day s ? I'm getting the income from it. I invested with Merrill Lynch. With the stock market, I'm not making a whole lot as far as interest and stuff. Were you ever a member of the International Chemical Workers Union? Yes, sir. Did you -- What years were you a member? The whole time I worked at Solutia, so that would be thirty-six years. We have you started in ',64? '65. '65, okay. Did you ever hold any position was the national union? No, sir. Ever hold any positions with the local? No, sir. I assume you got annual physicals? Yes, sir. Can you tell me what those consisted of? It was complete blood work. The doctor REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032088 26 1 2 3 4 Q. 5 6 7 8 9 A. 1 0 Q. 11 12 13 14 15 A. 1 6 Q. 17 18 19 20 21 A. 2 2 Q. 23 did a test on your lungs. We had chest x-rays. Then he give us a general physical, hearing test, eye test. Okay. And then I assume there was sort of, in addition to the physical exam, a general history or question session of has anything changed in the last year, how are you doing? Right. And again, not to put words in your mouth, but I have done a few of you guys now. That was performed by the plant nurse and to a certain extent the plant doctor? Yes, sir. And you maybe the first one that was actually told something, of the guys I've deposed anyway. Is this annual physical where you learned about the high iron level in your blood? Yes, sir. And when that was discovered they told you about that and referred you to a REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032089 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 A. 1 0 Q. 11 12 13 A . 14 Q. 15 16 A. 1 7 Q. 18 19 20 2 1 A. 22 23 specialist? Yes, sir. And as you told me, their recommendation was to try to give blood and stay away from high iron foods? Yes . : Do you recall roughly when that was first learned? Roughly eightyears ago. Is it your sense that the level has stayed about the same for the past eight years? Yes. Have you been back to the doctor, the specialist, since that first visit? No, sir. Did he pretty much leave you with the sense that it wouldn't be necessary for you to come back no matter what that 1 eve 1 went to? Yes, sir. He just said the best thing for my case is just to give blood. He said I don't know a thing to do to REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032090 28 1 2 3 Q. 4 5 6 7 8 A. 9 Q. 10 1 1 A. 12 13 14 Q. 15 A . 1 6 Q. 17 18 19 20 A. 21 Q 22 A. 23 Q change this, no medicine or nothing you can take to lower it. I think there is actually a therapy, but it is pretty nasty. If you are not symptomatic, you probably don't want it. Did you pay anything for these physic a1s ? No, sir. Do you -- Would you qualify to get one now that you are retired? Not through the company. Well, I guess the insurance may pay. I don't know about that. You haven'tbothered to look into that? No . And I'm guessing you still havefriends and acquaintances who still work there since you just left there half a year ago . Yes D o you get the newsletter? The little company -- Bama Briefs, yes. I s that what it is called, Bama Briefs? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032091 29 1 A. 2 3 4 Q. 5 A. 6 Q. 7 8 9 A. 10 11 12 1 3 Q. 14 A. 15 Q. 16 17 A. 18 1 9 Q. 20 21 A. 2 2 Q. 23 Uh-huh (indicating yes). MR. MYERS : Yes ? THE WITNESS: Yes. Do you know who puts that together? Suzanne Gardener. And how long do you think they have been putting together the Bama Briefs and sending it to the work force? Probably twenty-five, thirty years, maybe, since I have been out there. It probably changed names over the course of the years. And how often do you think it comes out? Now I think it is quarterly. In the historic pastwas it something different? Years ago I think we got it once a month. Do you remember -- Would you actually read this thing? Yes, sir. Do you ever remember anything in the Bama Briefs where they talked about PCBs REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032092 30 1 2 3 4 5 A. 6 Q. 7 8 9 1 0 A. 1 1 Q. 12 13 14 15 1 6 A. 1 7 Q. 18 A. 1 9 Q. 20 A. 2 1 Q. 22 2 3 A. being out in the community and what the company's position was about that? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. You can answer. No . . Is it essentially a social thing, talking about who went where, who has had a kid, who died, who got married, that kind of stuff? Yes, sir. All right. Let's talk about the stuff you did when you worked at Monsanto, please, sir. Would you tell me the first day you showed up, what was your title . Chemical operator. Okay. And thatis 1965? Right. Okay. And where did you operate? Nir an. Okay. And what were your duties as an operator in the Niran department? I was a drummer. I put the product in a REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032093 31 1 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 A. 7 8 9 10 11 12 1 3 Q. 14 A . 15 Q. 16 17 A. 1 8 Q. 1 9 A. 2 0 Q. 21 2 2 A. 2 3 Q. fifty-five-ga11 on drum. Now, were you actually exposed to the Niran in that process, or were you putting a hose or something in there and sealing that off - It was a lance that went :down in a drum. It was on a scale. You filled it up. I don't remember the pounds you put in it then. But when it got up there, it would cut off. And you would just lift it up and put a bong in it and put another drum, just over and over. Not the most exciting job? No, sir. And as a drummer of Niran, I assume you wore some protective equipment? Yes, sir. Gloves? Yes, face shield. Anything to protect respiratory-wise, likeamask? No, sir. Was there ventilation present where you REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032094 32 1 2 A. 3 4 5 Q. 6 7 A. 8 9 Q. 10 11 12 13 14 A. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 2 2 Q. 23 were drumming? There is a hood, the best I remember, now, over the drumming machine that pulled. And how long did you continue as an operator in the Niran department? Not long. That was in June, and I got laid off in October. All right, sir. Is there -- I know they sometimes called Niran cotton poison. Its principal use was to spray cotton crops. Was there a season to the Niran production because of that? They made two grades of it. They made one for winter and one for summer. I don't know that there was any difference in the -- One was methyl and one was ethyl. One wouldn't freeze in the wintertime. There was something they put in it. I wasn't in that end of the production. I don't know how it worked. But when you got laid off, it wasn't because you were spilling a lot of Niran REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032095 33 1 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 A. 7 8 9 Q. 10 A. 1 1 Q. 12 A. 1 3 Q. 14 15 A. 1 6 Q. 1 7 A. 1 8 Q. 1 9 A. 2 0 Q. 21 A. 2 2 Q. 2 3 A. on the floor. It was just that they didn't need you any more? That's right. What's the next thing -- What did you do when you got laid off? I went to work at Anniston Foundry - Let's see, that was October -- until December, around December 20th. And got hired back on? No, sir. What happened at Anniston Foundry then? I got on at Anniston Army Depot. So for only about two months were you working at Anniston Foundry? Right . What did youdo there? I loaded trucks out on the yard, labor. Where is Anniston Foundry? It is just west of the plant. Okay. Is it called something else now? Huron. Metals? Huron Metals. I think that is what it REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032096 34 1 2 3 Q 4 5 6 7 A. 8 Q 9 10 A. 11 12 13 14 Q 15 A. 16 17 Q 18 19 A. 20 21 22 Q 23 is called now. I think that is what it is . In the couple of months that you worked at Anniston Foundry, did you ever know them to use any PCB or Aroclor containing materials? : No, sir. Okay. So then you went to Anniston Army Depot ? Uh-huh (indicating yes). MR. MYERS : Yes ? THE WITNESS: Yes. Thank you. MR. MYERS: You're welcome. What did you do at ANAD? I worked on the production line, M-48 t anks. Did you have a particular task, or would you rotate around? Same task. I had three of them. I installed a primer pump, put the batteries in them, and gassed them up. You were one of the last guys or maybe the last guy on the line? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032097 35 1 A. 2 3 4 5 6 Q 7 8 A. 9 Q 10 11 12 A . 13 Q 14 A . 15 16 Q 17 18 A. 19 Q. 20 21 22 A. 23 Well, it was a portable gas thing. I just put enough in so that when it came off the end they could crank it and get it around to the fuel pumps. I put fifty gallons in it. Which I guess for an M-48 might let you get about half a mile down the road? Not 1ong. Those are the big ones. Did you work around PCBs at all as far as you knew when you were at the depot? No . How long did that job last? Until February of '66, when I was called back to Monsanto. Okay. And you spent the rest of your work career at Monsanto? Yes, sir. All right. I can leave that page behind. When you came back to Monsanto, what was the job you came back to? I went to work in the Aroclor department. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032098 36 1 Q. 2 A. 3 Q. 4 5 6 7 A. 8 Q. 9 1 0 A. 11 12 Q. 13 14 A. 15 16 17 18 19 2 0 Q. 21 2 2 A. 23 Your title was justoperator? Operator, yes, sir. That was in February of '66. And I assume this was a better paying job? Why would you leave the depot and come to work - Better paying job. Okay. Tell me what you did as an operator in the Aroclor department? Well, I operated all the jobs there over the course until they shut it down. Okay. And I understand there were several. Right. They had what they called the chlorinator job, chlorinated the biphenyl. They had a muriatic acid plant, which they took the byproduct off the chlorinator and made hydrochloric acid. Diluted hydrochloric, which would make mu ria tic ? Right. They had a distillation, or the still, we called it. We kind of REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032099 37 1 2 3 Q. 4 5 6 7 8 9 A. 1 0 Q. 1 1 A. 12 13 Q. 14 15 16 17 18 1 9 A. 2 0 Q. 21 2 2 A. 23 rotated, worked all the jobs. They trained you on all of them. And let me talk to you a little bit about those. I assume there was a waste stream generated through the chlorinator, or not through it, but you would generated waste as part of that process? No, sir. So you didn't have a still bottom? Now, on the still we did. On the chlorinator, no. You said chlorinator. I thought I had understood earlier from someone that the chlorinator, you had some gunk at the bottom of that from time to time too. But you are saying that would all come out and go straight - To the still. Where did the muriatic acid come? Explain the process to us. The chlorine gas going through the chlorinators, it had, you know, a REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032100 38 1 2 Q. 3 4 5 A. 6 Q. 7 A. 8 Q. 9 A. 10 11 12 13 14 1 5 Q. 16 1 7 A. 18 19 20 21 2 2 Q. 23 byproduct coming off it, HCl gas. So you are basically substituting chlorine molecules for hydrogen molecules on the biphenyl? I suppose. I don't know. You don't know? It changed it anyhow. And the byproduct would be HCl? Right. And it was --went up to the hydrochloric acid plant. And we would mix it with water to make ever what grade we wanted. It run through carbon filters and all this type stuff. And we put it in storage tanks. What were the carbon filtersscreening out of there, if you know? I don't really know. It run through a final filter, filter that had a sock in it, which got some carbon out that got in the product, you know. But I don't know . Do you know what they sold the muriatic acid for? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032101 39 1 A. 2 3 Q. 4 A. 5 Q. 6 7 A. 8 9 10 11 12 Q. 13 14 15 1 6 A. 17 18 19 20 2 1 Q. 22 23 Most of it went to the steel mills. They washed steel with it. Pickle steel? Yes . Do you ever remember hearing about them selling some of that to food processors? They had a water white grade of it. We made a food grade of the acid. Most of them went in tank cars. The railroad pulled them out. Now, where they went, I don't know. I thought that might have been -- When you said you filtered with carbon, I thought that might be a further process to get it food grade. I don't know. My memory is not real plain on that part of it, now. It has been thirty-something years ago. I think all of it went through the carbon towers. Did you ever hear about them having to stop selling it for food use because of the presence of small quantities of PCB REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032102 1 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 7 A. 8 9 1 0 Q. 11 1 2 A. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 in it? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. No . Okay. Moving on then to the distillation part with the still, that is where you would have a still bottom? Uh-huh (indicating yes). MR. MYERS : Yes ? THE WITNESS : Yes . And what would be done with that 'V-. material? The liquid would be drummed out into fifty-five-galIon drums. And I'm trying to think of what we did with it. We had a labor department. It went down big rollers. Some of it would set up solid. It is according to what grade we made. It would be solid, and they would crush it. I don't really remember what they done with it. But we put it in them drums. I don't remember right off what they did with them. It kind of went into another department there. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032103 41 1 Q 2 3 4 A. 5 Q 6 A. 7 Q 8 A. 9 10 Q 11 12 A. 13 14 Q 15 16 A. 17 18 19 Q 20 21 A. 22 Q 23 A. Okay. What was the next job you had after you were an operator in the Aroclor department? Went to the biphenyl department. Still as an operator? Yes, sir. And do you recall when that happened? In '72. That is when they shut Aroclor down . So you were an operator in Aroclor until the Aroclor department ceased to exist? Yeah. I run the last batch through there, my and Joe Webb. Okay. And the next day you became a biphenyl operator? (Witness nods head affirmatively.) MR . MYERS : Yes ? THE WITNESS: Yes. And what were your responsibilities as a biphenyl operator? You mean what job did I have? Yeah. What did you do? I started out running a tube unit. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032104 42 1 Q. 2 3 A. 4 5 Q. 6 7 A. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 1 6 Q. 17 18 1 9 A. 2 0 Q. 21 2 2 A. 2 3 Q. And that is what made the biphenyl from the benzine? Yes, sir. That was the starting point of it . Anything else that you would end up doing? Well, I run that job. It would go through a distillation column after it came out of the tube. I run that job. We called it the stills. Also we had an HB-40 plant that was in that department, and I run it. Those two departments, everybody rotated on the job. They trained you on all of them, just kind of rotated around. One guy called it cross-training. The goal was to maximize flexibility by giving you maximum knowledge. Right. And what did you do after you -- What's the next job you held? Went to electrician, shift electrician. And that would have been when? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032105 43 1A 2Q 3A 4Q 5 6 7A 8 9 10 Q 11 12 A 13 14 Q 15 16 A 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 1 9 7 9. And was that a plant-wide Yes, sir. And why would you want to go from being an operator to being a shift electrician? Well, one, I wanted to learn a trade. They train you to be an electrician. And it paid a little more money. Okay. And what did you do as a shift electrician? Worked on all the electrical stuff in the plant. And I'm thinking there was a lot of that? Sometimes I didn't eat my lunch. It was still on the table when I went home. They had big panel boards in the departments. All the process was monitored with flow meters and all. Motors would quit, burn up. You would change motors out, that type stuff, anything to do with REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032106 1 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 A. 11 12 13 14 Q 15 A. 16 Q 17 18 A. 19 Q 20 A. 21 22 Q 23 A. I worked on the railroad one time. And the guys who really set the pace were the mechanics because if something broke down and they took their time, things didn't go anywhere. But if they hustled up, we kept moving. I'm guessing it is kind of like that for the shift electrician. Yes. He could shut the whole department down. And some department would feed another department. So yes, sir. You worked on it right then. That is why lunch got cold? Right How 1 ong did you stay as shif t ric ian? Three years. Okay . So in '82 you shifted to what? Went into the painter and insulator group Okay . And was this a plant-wide -- Yes , sir. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032107 45 1 Q. 2 3 A. 4 5 6 7 8 Q. 9 10 1 1 A. 12 Q. 13 14 15 1 6 A. 17 1 8 Q. 19 20 21 A. 22 Q- 23 A. And why did you choose to make that switch? To get off shift work. Electricians, you rotated every two weeks onfirst, second, and midnights, worked weekends. And that was a straight Monday through Friday day job at the same pay. Need electricians all the time, but we can just paint during the day and that is fine? Right. And painting I can pretty much understand or I think I know what you were doing as a painter. Tell me if there was something unusual about it. No. It's like your house. You chip and prime and paint. Insulating, that is perhaps not simple. I'm guessing you had more than one kind of insulating material. Yes, sir. What kind of materials would you use? Fiberglas, mo st of it, pipe insulation REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032108 1 2 Q. 3 4 5 A. 6 Q. 7 A. 8 Q. 9 1 0 A. 11 12 13 14 15 1 6 Q. 1 7 A. 18 19 20 21 22 2 3 Q. and stuff. Did they jacket a lot of that with metal around that to protect the insulation itself? Yes, sir, to keep it from getting wet. Would you do that? Yes. Other than Fiberglas what other types of insulating materials would you use? On hot surfaces like furnaces and things, they had a chalky-looking type of insulation, and I can't remember what they called it. But it would stand real high temperature. Fiberglas wouldn't. We insulated them with that. Was it a type of ceramic? No. It was -- It wasn't ceramic. It was -- I can't remember what it was made out of. You cut it kind of with a hacksaw or handsaw. It was pretty thick, kind of like sheetrock only thicker. Did you ever use any asbestos in the era REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032109 47 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 A. 5 Q 6 7 A. 8 9 10 11 Q. 12 A . 13 Q 14 15 A. 16 17 Q 18 A. 19 Q 20 21 A. 22 Q 23 A. you were an insulator? No, sir. Did you ever remove asbestos? No, sir. Did they never use asbestos at the plant as far as you know? There were some departments, older departments, that had asbestos in them. They had a company come in there and remove it. You never had to be around it? No, sir. What's the next job you had at the plant ? Let's see. I left there and went to the P 2 S 5 department. As an operator? Yes, sir, chief operator. So that was a promotion in pay I presume? Right. But you are back to shift work? Right. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032110 1 Q. 2 3 4 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 A. 9 Q. 10 11 1 2 A. 13 1 4 Q. 1 5 A. 16 17 18 Q 19 A. 20 Q. 21 A. 22 Q 23 A. And there you were looking over a group of operators at your particular shift, and I presume, as with these other departments, there were multiple tasks that had to go on to make this P2S5? Right. And you were familiar with all of them? Yes, sir. What's the next jobyou held? And let me get the dates. When did you start at P2 S 5 ? See, I was painterand insulator until 1 9 8 5. Okay. Then I went to P2S5 and was there until -- I believe it was 1990. I'm not positive about that. What did you do in 1990? Went back to the biphenyl department As a chief operator? No , sir, just an operator And why did you make that move ? They shut down the Niran department. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032111 49 . 1 2 3 4 Q. 5 A. 6 Q. 7 8 A. 9 Q. 10 11 1 2 A. 1 3 Q. 14 A. 15 Q . 16 A. 1 7 Q. 1 8 A. 1 9 Q. 20 2 1 A. 2 2 Q. 23 The P 2 S 5 department went out of that business, had a big layoff. So I had to just go where my seniority carried me. People got to bid in based on seniority? Yes. And the best thing open at that point was - - Back in biphenyl. Okay. And again, your duties and responsibilities were the same as they were before? Yes, sir, same jobs and everything. And what's the next job you held? Went to the PNP department. Operator? Yes, sir. When do you think that happened? I believe it was '94. Okay. It is not real critical. Thereabouts? Yes. I was operator there too. Why did you shift from being an operator in biphenyl to PNP? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032112 50 1 A. 2 3 Q. 4 5 A. 6 7 8 9 Q. 10 11 12 1 3 A. 14 15 1 6 Q. 17 18 19 20 21 2 2 A. 23 Just a better operating department. The job was better, I thought. What made you think that was a better job? Just the process they went through, the way it run. Now, over there we didn't rotate jobs, in PNP. There wasn't but two jobs there. Better could be better in terms of comfort, better in terms of the people you were with, better in terms of your health. What is it - The work. The work was better, easier. I wouldn't -- You know, a little cleaner. Well, that makes sense, easier and cleaner. I haven't talked to anybody about the PNP department. What would you actually do in the PNP department as an operator? What were the two jobs as an operator? They had a reactor operator on the reactors and then one that run the waste REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032113 1 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 :A. 7 8 9 1 0 Q. 1 1 A. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 treatment. Let me take those one at a time. What do you understand happened in the reactor? What were the feed stocks, and what were you doing to end up with PNP? They pumped in a -- this is like a soup. It had sulfuric -- No. We had sulfuric acid. It had PNCB put in the reactor. They put in water and caustic. Sodium hydroxide? And started it agitating, and it formed the reaction. And we run it until -- on a ninety-minute cycle. And then we pumped it out into a receiver and added sulfuric acid to it. And it changed it from sodium PNP to a finished PNP. It went through a chain reaction. And from there it run over a belt filter, which washed it with spray nozzles and took most of the moisture out of it. It went in a tank where more -- It was melted back up. It went to a solid when that water hit it. Then it went back in the REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032114 52 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 A 13 Q 14 15 A 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 A 23 Q melt tank and was melted up. Then we added water to it for a amount of moisture they wanted in it. And then went to a storage tank. Now, what about the waste treatment in the PNP department? It was the waste treatment facility for the whole plant. Everything in the plant was treated in there. In other words, those two big, long, steel tanks, open top? Right, basins, we call them. And you see some yellow stuff pouring into it from time to time? Right. That is coming from PNP department. It also feeds the - it has a little micro-organism in there, They have to have that to live on. And they eat the big molecules that we don't want in the environment and turn it into safer little molecules? They eat it. They love it. So you actually spent some time REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032115 53 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 5 6 7 8 A. 9 Q. 1 0 A. 11 1 2 Q. 13 14 A. 15 16 17 1 8 Q. 19 2 0 A. 2 1 Q. 22 2 3 A. operating that basin? Yes, sir. And your job was to make sure you had a correct balance between enough food for the microbes without overwhelming them, but at the same time you didn't want to starve them to death? Right. What's the next job youhad at Monsanto? This is my last one. I went to shipping department. Okay. And what was the reason for that change in position? In the PNP department I was on shift work, and this is a straight day job Monday through Friday. So I went to it on account of the hours. And when do you think you started that position? In 1996. That was a plant-wideposition, shipping ? No, not really. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032116 54 1 Q. Okay. 2 A. We had a shipping department, a big 3 warehouse where we loaded trucks. Some 4 ' of the docks was all over the plant, 5 loaded tanker trucks. But that was what 6 they called loader and unloader inside 7 the shipping department. They did that 8 type work. I did that alittle while. 9 Q. But basically it is not like there was a 1 0 shipping department for PNP and a 1 1 shipping department for HB-40? There 1 2 was one shipping department for the 1 3 who1e plant? 14 A. Right. 1 5 Q. Going back for a moment to your days as 1 6 an Aroclor operator from '66 through '72 1 7 and when you made the last batch of 1 8 Aroclor that got made down here, was 1 9 there ever an expansion of the capacity 2 0 of the plant to make various types of 21 22 A. Yes, sir. 2 3 Q. Tell me about those. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032117 55 1 A. 2 3 4 5 6 7 Q. 8 A. 9 1 0 Q. 11 12 1 3 A. 1 4 Q. 1 5 A. 16 1 7 Q. 1 8 A. 19 20 21 22 23 I think it was around 1968. They added some bigger chlorinators and stills and also put in a tank farm, which I think it was eleven or twelve big storage tanks, to hold the different products we made. : Al1 right . And that was the only expansion they did while I worked there the six years. Okay. Thank you. In your years working as an operator, did you actually physically come in contact with Aroclor? Yes, sir. Tell me how that came about. Well, we had filters we cleaned. After the - - What were they -- I'm sorry. After the Aroclor come out of the stills, it went in the receiver, agitated them. There was a product like ground up clay, real dry and hot. We put it in it. It filtered it, and then it went in the storage tanks. And those REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032118 56 1 2 3 4 Q. 5 A. 6 7 8 9 Q. 10 11 12 Q. 13 14 A. 1 5 Q. 1 6 A. 1 7 Q. 18 1 9 A. 20 21 22 23 filters, you'd get two or three batches of stuff,and you'd have to stop and c1ean them out. Scrape that earth - Right. There were plates in there with paper-like:, cardboard paper. You'd have to take them out and get that earth and put it in a drum. And what happened to the drum of PCB contaminated earth? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. There would be PCBs soaked into that earth, I presume. Probably. I me an - - Yeah, right. So what happened to it after you put it in the drum? After the drum got full, we put a top on it. It was an open-top drum. We'd put a drum top on it, put it on the elevator and carry it downstairs. I guess they hauled it to the landfill. I don't know REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032119 57 1 2 Q. 3 4 A. 5 Q. 6 7 8 A. 9 10 11 12 Q. 13 14 1 5 A. 1 6 Q. 17 1 8 A. 1 9 Q. 20 21 A. 22 Q . 23 exactly where it went. Did you keep that under a hood until it cooled? You mean the filter? No. The drum. You scrape that stuff into a drum. : Where was that drum sitting while it cooled? Well, it cooled. We had to let it cool down before we could clean it. It would be hot. We'd just open it up and let it cool down. When you say you would open it up, where was this filter? Was this outside the building or inside the building? It was inside, on the second floor. Would that not generate some fumes when you opened it up to let it cool off? Some, yes. But you had ventilation inside the bui1ding ? Not a hood or nothing over it. No, sir But there was some ventilation in the structure generally? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032120 58 1 A. 2 Q. 3 4 5 A. 6 Q. 7 8 9 A. 10 11 12 Q. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Right. Now, I'm assuming you didn't take your bare hands and scrape this earth into the drums. No. We had gloves, rubber gloves. What other kinds ^ of operations led you to have physical contact with PCBs or Aroclor or Montars? When I'm saying physical -- you are saying physical, do you mean getting it on you or something? Yeah. That is a good example. And I'm trying to find out to what extent it would physically get on you. So I appreciate you telling me about cleaning those filters. That is something I hadn't heard before. So tell me what other occasions you would have -- and there you would be breathing some of it I guess. Tell me about other occasions when you as an operator might have more exposure to it than somebody else would have . REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032121 59 1 A. 2 3 4 5 6 7 Q. 8 9 1 0 A. 11 12 13 Q. 14 15 A. 16 1 7 Q. 1 8 A. 19 Q 20 21 22 A. 23 Q Sampling the storage tanks, you could possibly get some on you. The process for the receiver pump, we sampled it to make sure the resistivity was high on it. You know, you could get it on you there. : Were you drawing a sample and carrying it to the lab and they put a meter on it? Yes, sir. They run a resistivity test on it. It had to be so high before it was shipped. And was it hot when you would draw it off for that kind of sampling? Off the batch receiver it was. The storage tank, no. It would be ambient there? Ye s . ' So you weren!t go i ng t o -- You would try real hard not to get i t on you when it came off that receive2 r ? Oh, yes, sir. It would burn you. And you would try to be careful when you REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032122 60 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 5 6 A. 7 8 9 10 11 Q. 12 13 A . 14 Q. 15 A. 1 6 Q. 17 18 19 20 2 1 A. 2 2 Q. 23 would sample it out of the tanks too? Yes, sir. Any other occasions when you might have had an unusual exposure to Aroclor, more than anybody walking around the plant? Like I said, other than:drawing bottoms, it came out in a fifty-five-ga11on drum. Of course it was real hot, extremely hot. But you know, it could splash, splash on you. Now, when you would draw those bottoms, was there a hood over that? Yes, sir. And that wasvented outside? Yes, sir. Okay. Let's talk about your personal protective equipment. Again, I want to narrow this to the era when you were an operator in Aroclor. You mentioned gloves. Uh-huh (indicating yes). I assume you had coveralls, basically a suit of clothing you were provided by REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032123 61 1 2 A. 3 4 5 Q. 6 A. 7 Q. 8 A. 9 Q. 10 11 A . 12 Q. 13 14 15 16 17 1 8 A. 19 20 21 22 2 3 Q. the facility? Yeah. They provided clothes and coats and stuff. We had hard hats, safety glasses, face shields. Hearing protection? Ye s, sir . : Work shoes? Yes, sir. I mean, in a sense you were covered head to toe? Right. If you decided oneday it was too hot and you didn't feel like wearing gloves or coveralls, there was somebody in the chain of command who would come by and inform you that that wasn't really an option? Well, we didn't necessarily insist we wear them. Most of us just wore regular work suits, pants and shirt. As far as being hot, you know, we didn't pull our shirts off or anything. You normally wore your protective REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032124 1 2 A. 3 4 5 Q. 6 7 A. 8 Q. 9 1 0 A. 11 Q. 12 13 14 A. 1 5 Q. 16 A . 1 7 Q. 1 8 A. 1 9 Q. 20 21 22 2 3 A. equipment ? Right. You had to have your hard hat, safety glasses and all that on when you went out the control room. And ventilation was present in the building generally, you told us. Yes. And you had hoods over some of the fumiest, if that's a word. The hottest, yes. And as I understand it, this clothing was provided by the plant, and you would change out of it before you went home. Yes, sir. They hadfacilities for you toclean up? Yes, sir. You couldn't eat or smokearound it. No, no, not outside. What information were you provided as an Aroclor operator about the toxicity of the materials you were working with? MR. MILES: Object to the form. None. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032125 63 1 Q. 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 A. 1 3 Q. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 A. 2 3 Q. Let me read you an old Monsanto document and see if any of this is anything you knew. Experimental work in animals shows that prolonged exposure to Aroclor vapors evolved at high temperatures or by repeated oral ingestion will lead to systemic toxic effects. Repeated bodily contact with the liquid Aroclors may lead to an acne-form skin eruption. Is any of that stuff you were told? Not that I remember. It goes on to say suitable draft ventilation to control the vapors evolved at elevated temperatures as well as protection by suitable garments from extensive bodily contact with the liquid Aroclors should prevent any untoward effect . I take it that was all in place while you were there? Yes, sir. Have you subsequently learned that PCBs, REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032126 64 1 2 3 4 5 A. 6 Q. 7 8 9 10 11 1 2 A. 13 14 Q. 15 16 A. 1 7 Q. 1 8 A. 1 9 Q. 20 21 A. 2 2 Q. 23 at least in the minds of some scientists, can cause skin problems for humans? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. Yes. Have you subsequentlylearned, again,: in the minds of some scientists, some certain levels of PCBs can cause or contribute to liver problems in humans? MR. MYERS: Same objection. Go ahead. I haven't heard aboutliver, no. I didn't know about that. Kidney? MR. MYERS: Same objection. No . Cancer? Ye s . ' Thyroid problems? MR. MYERS: Same objection. No . Ever heard that PCBs in women who are carrying fetuses can creat problems for REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032127 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 'v, 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. the child? Yes. MR. MYERS: Same objection. Where do you recall hearing about these particular -- There are three things you had heard about, the skin, cancer, : developmental. Where do you recall hearing about that? In the paper. What papers do you take? The Anniston Star. I've been asking folks about the condition of the drainage ditches leaving from the plant, and some of them have seen them, and some of them haven't. If I wanted to talk to you about that, do you have any personal knowledge of what they looked like? What do you mean, what they looked like? The condition of them. MR. MYERS: When? MR. CUNNINGHAM: In sometime prior to 1972? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032128 66 1 A. 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 7 A. 8 Q. 9 1 0 A. 1 1 Q. 1 2 A. 1 3 Q. 14 A. 15 16 17 Q 18 A. 19 Q 20 A. 21 Q 22 A. 23 Q No, sir. What about the condition of Snow Creek or Choccolocco Creek back when y'all were making Aroclor? Do you have any personal knowledge of what kind of condition they were in? No, sir. Have you ever fished in Choccolocco Creek? No, sir. Do you fish? Yes, sir. Where do you like to go fishing? Go to Lake Guntersvi11e, talking about recently. And I had a houseboat on Logan Martin for several years. So you did fish in Lake Logan Martin? Uh -huh (indicating yes), and swarn . Do you still fish in Lake Logan Martin? Occasionally, yes. sir. Do you consume the fish that you cat ch? I could catch them , I would, yes, sir. Are you aware of the fish advisory out REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032129 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 5 A. 6 Q. 7 8 9 10 11 A. 1 2 Q. 13 14 15 16 17 A. 1 8 Q. 19 20 2 1 A. 2 2 Q. 23 there ? Yes. But despite that you would still eat fish you could catch? Yes. To your knowledge, did you ever participate in a study or investigation of the health status of the work force in Anniston aside from going to these annual physicals? No, sir. Did you ever hear about or know anything about a study of the causes of death of workers at Krummrich plant who worked around Aroclor? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. No, sir. Ever hear about a study of workers here at Anniston who may have worked around Aroclors as far as causes of death? Yes. Okay. When do you recall hearing about that? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032130 68 1 2 3Q 4 5 6A 7Q 8A 9Q 10 A 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Q 22 23 It would be a guess. Seven or eight ye ars ago. And how do you recall that coming - what formats did that take, some person t e11ing you ? Yes. Do you remember who? He was out of St. Louis, Kaley or -- Ka1ey ? He came down, and we had a series of plant-wide meetings. He went over what they had learned about workers that worked here in Anniston. What is your recollection of what we told you about the health or mortality of workers in Anniston? He told us that as far as cancer and things likes that, the workers had a lower rate of cancer than the general population. Okay. Have you ever visited the Aroclor facility in Sauget, Illinois, at the Krummrich plant? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032131 69 1 A. 2 Q. 3 4 5 A. 6 Q. 7 8 A. 9 Q. 1 0 A. 11 12 Q. 13 A. 14 Q. 15 1 6 A. 1 7 Q. 1 8 A. 19 2 0 Q. 21 2 2 A. 23 No, sir. So if I wanted to talk about the dif ferences in how they did things, you wouldn't know? I'd have no idea. Have you ever had your serum PCB level checked? Yes, sir. Do you recall what it was? It was in the forties. I think it was forty-seven parts per million. Only had it done once? Yes. I'massuming you never had your fat tested. No. Just blood. You would have remembered it if you had. I don't know what that involves, but, no sir. Who took your blood for that test and analyzed it, if you know? I don't know. I believe it was the company nurse. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032132 70 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Okay. And do you recall when that was done ? Seven or eight years ago. I'm not real sure about the year. And why was that done? I think it was brought up in a safety meeting or something. Somebody asked if any of the workers had ever been tested, and they said, well, they weren't sure or something. I don't know what the answer was. But anyway, they said anybody that wanted to be tested to let them know and they would. So everybody that worked in the Aroclor department, as far as I know, we all had our blood checked. Wasthat voluntary as far as you know? Yes. But you decided you would like to know? Yes, sir. And was there some follow up tothat? Did they just hand you a piece of paper and say here is your level? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032133 71 1 A. 2 Q. 3 4 A. 5 Q. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 A. 14 15 1 6 Q. 17 18 1 9 A. 20 2 1 Q. 22 2 3 A. We was notified. It was written out. Was it after that time that Mr. Kaley came down and talked to y1 all or before? That was before. Mr. Kaley came before. So subsequent to Mr. Kaley. Now, I had seen something typed up that was like a question and answer session there at the facility. And I don't know if you participated in that or not. Do you remember some people coming down from St. Louis and talking to y'all about the significance of those blood levels? Other than him, the guy, Mr. Kaley that I talked to, I don't know. Now, that was a question and answer period. I don't see your name on here. Now, I do see a Webb. He was the guy that closed down Aroclor with you, right? Yes. As best I remember, me and Joe was on that last batch that went through. The other names of the people were - There was a Womack? Melvin Womack. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032134 72 1 Q 2 A. 3 Q 4 A. 5 Q 6 A. 7 8 9 Q 10 A. 11 12 13 Q 14 15 A. 16 Q 17 A. 18 19 Q 20 A. 21 Q 22 A. 23 What was the first name ? Me Ivin. Then Robertson? Norris. Is that another Aroclor operator? Uh-huh (indicating yes). MR. MYERS : Yes ? THE WITNESS: Yes. Patty, P-a-t-t-y? Bob Patty. I don't remember him ever working in there. He worked in the biphenyl department Okay. He may have got it checked just the same. Cambron? Bill, yes. Hopper? Jerry Hopper, yes. He was a lab technician. And Chapman with a P, C - h - a - p - m - a - n ? Jack. And Nixon, N-i-x-o- n . Him and his father both worked there. Terry and Amos. I don't know who that REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032135 73 1 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 A. 10 11 Q. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 2 1 A. 2 2 Q. 23 is referring to. But you don't remember being in a question and answer session on -- I can give you the precise date -- August 1st, 1996, where all of that got discussed? Oh, nothing that recently? Would you have gone if you had been invited? Well, if they had served lunch, I probably would have. I'm going to try to figure out here if you will give me a second -- They shared with us the data on the workers' serum levels, but they didn't give us your names to protect your privacy. It is by number. I'm looking at results that were in the forties. There weren't a lot. There was a forty-nine. This was a guy who was age fifty-seven in ninety-six. How old are you? I'm sixty-three. So you would have been fifty-seven or fifty-eight in 1996. That could have REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032136 1 2 3 4 A. 5 Q 6 7 8 9 A. 10 1 1 Q. 12 13 14 1 5 A. 1 6 Q. 17 1 8 A. 1 9 Q. 20 2 1 A. 22 23 been you. Then I have a forty-eight No , that ' s too old . Let s look at 1003 and see i f this is you . I s that the clock numbe r or some thing? No , just a random numbe r assigned to this. It is nothing. See if that looks like a questionnaire you might have completed as part of that process. No, way to tall for me, five foot eleven. Okay. I've just noticed that number 1004 is also somebody about your age. Let me take that one back and try you on this one. Well, it could be. Do you remember filling something like that out? No, I don't. Okay. But you remember yourlevel being forty-something? Yes. I don't remember exactly. I was thinking it was forty-seven, but it may not have been. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032137 75 1 Q. 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 A. 1 1 Q. 12 13 14 15 1 6 A. 17 18 19 2 0 Q. 21 22 23 Now, it sounds very similar to what you have told us. Okay. Among the things I was hoping to find out, there was - - In the comments on these, one person talks about having had an abnormal liver test five years ago. That would have been in 1991. Do you remember anyone who worked at the plant having an abnormal liver test about ten years ago? No, sir. I'm not Another one here, aware of it. V- number 1035, his comments say he carried the melted PCBs to the dump. Any idea who in the work force might have been a person to carry this stuff up to the dump? He would probably have been in the shipping department. I wouldn't know. It has been so long ago, I don't know what that would have been. The melted stuff, as I understand from some of the documents, sometimes went up in skips, they called them. My sense is they looked like wheelbarrows. Do you REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032138 76 1 2 3 4 5 Q. 6 7 8 A. 9 10 11 1 2 Q. 1 3 A. 14 1 5 Q. 16 1 7 A. 18 19 20 21 22 23 remember how big those were? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. I think what he is asking is do you know that to be the case. Yeah. Did you ever know of those bottoms being drawn in anything other than a drum? No, no. Let me back up. The liquid bottoms -- they wouldn't go up in a skip, because they wouldcome out. It wouldn't hold liquid. Slosh around too bad? Well, the skips are not waterproof, watertight. None I've ever seen is. They would leak out the bottom, you are saying? Yes. In fact they have places in there where rainwater will come in, most of them. No, I don't remember them carrying in skips. Now, the byproduct, the stuff they cleaned out of the filter, that may have been carried up there. It would be a solid. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032139 77 1 Q. 2 3 4 A. 5 Q. 6 7 A. 8 Q. 9 10 A. 1 1 Q. 12 1 3 A. 14 Q. 15 1 6 A. 17 18 19 20 21 2 2 Q. 23 So did you do anything in light of the fact that you had a forty-four reading on your serum PCB? No, sir. Did someone tell you that was nothing to worry about? No, sir. Did anyone tell you it was something you should follow up on? No, sir. Just didn't tell you oneway or the other? Just give me the result. What was your understanding as to whether that was high, low, average? There was several of usworked in the shipping department, still out there now that worked in that department, and we kind of compared them. I was kind of in the middle. Some was a lot higher and some lower. So to your mind you were -- It was no big deal? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032140 78 1 A. 2 Q 3 4 A. 5 Q 6 7 8 A. 9 Q 10 11 A. 12 13 14 Q 15 A. 16 Q . 17 A. 18 19 Q 20 21 22 23 Yeah. That's correct. No big deal. Did you ever mention it to any of your personal physicians? No, sir. Did you ever mention it to the plant physician when you had your annual physic a1? No, sir. Do you know anything about incinerators at the plant ? A little bit, not a whole lot. I never run them or anything like that. I know Which ones do you know of? It was in the Niran department. What went into the Niran incinerator? Some byproduct of Niran in that department. I'm not sure. Did some byproducts of Niran go into the dump? Let me put it differently. Did Niran contaminated materials go up to the dump? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032141 79 1 A. 2 Q. 3 4 5 A. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 1 5 Q. 16 17 A. 1 8 Q. 19 20 A. 2 1 Q. 22 23 A. That I don't know. You just know that something that was generated in the Niran manufacturing process went into anincinerator? Right. They had a thing on a skip in what they call the recycle department, which is part of Niran. Part of it went to them. It was filtered. They filtered something out of the product. I don't know what it was. It went into the skip. But as far as I know it wasn't -- In fact, it seems they give it to people to put on their pastures to help the soil. You didn't go to shipping until pretty late, right? Yes, sir. Did you ever go and look at the dump, at the site? No . So you have no knowledge of what they looked like, how theyran? No . REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032142 80 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Did you ever have bad batches when you were trying to make Aroclor, that the stuff just didn't work out to spec? Probably. I know on solid Aroclor we would have batches. Now, it wasn't made out of biphenyl, didn't have any PCBs in it. That was terphenyl? Right. So you don't remember ever having a bad batch of liquid Aroclor? I don't know that you could have -- You could have one too low in resistivity, but you could bring it up. Just keep working on? Yeah, keep working on it and bring it up . Okay. Aside from taking samples of the product as it was being made and after it was made, did you have any involvement in collecting samples or analyzing samples to be tested for PCBs around the plant? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032143 81 1A 2Q 3 4A 5Q 6 7 8A 9Q 10 A 11 Q 12 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 Q 17 18 19 A. 20 Q 21 22 23 No . Have you heard that PCBs have been found in people's yards around the plant? Yes, sir. Have you heard thatit has been found in people's bodies who live around the plant? Yes, sir. And you knew about the fish advisory? Yes. Have you heard about EPA Superfund people coming to town? Yes, sir. How did you learn about these things? Newspaper. Did any of that surprise you when you read it? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. No , not really So if someone we went out to and tested for PCBs or got people's blood and tested for PCBs, you would REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032144 82 1 have told them you are probably going to 2 find it? 3 MR. MYERS: Object to the form. 4 A. Not in 1990, I wouldn't have. I'm just 5 talking about in recent years, when I 6 : heard about it. 7 Q. What had you learned between 1990 and 8 when you read about this stuff that kept 9 it from being surprising, that clued you 1 0 in that this might be the case? 1 1 A. Say that one more time. 1 2 Q. Yeah. What I've been trying to find out 1 3 from people is whether they figured all 14 along that this stuff was out and away 15 from the plant and in people's yards and 1 6 in people's bodies or whether that came 1 7 as a surprise to the work force when it 1 8 was reported in the press or when you 19 first learned it. I thought you had 2 0 told me that it didn't come as a 2 1 surprise to you when you read it in The 2 2 Anniston Star, but it would have been a 2 3 surprise to you if somebody told it to REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032145 83 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. you in 1990. If I misstated that, I want to clarify it. MR. MYERS: Object to the form. I'm just trying to find out, a, when you think you found out about it. Reading it in The Anniston Star. Okay. And I'm saying when you read that in The Anniston Star, that didn't come as a big surprise to you? You mean as far as being in people's yards and things? Yeah. In people's yards and people's bodies. If that is two different answers, then - Yeah. In people's yards, maybe along that creek, what I've been reading in the paper, that wouldn't have been a surprise. The body parts, being in - that may have been a little surprising to me . Were you at all concerned when you read about these things? Now, you mean as far as my personal REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032146 1 2 Q. 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 10 1 1 A. 12 13 14 15 16 17 1 8 Q. 19 20 21 2 2 A. 2 3 Q. health? No, for the folks this hadhappened to. No . And you are notconcerned about it personally, for that matter? No. : And I take it that is because you have always been told that this stuff wasn't particularly dangerous. MR. MYERS: Object to the form. No, sir. I was never told that. I was never told anything bad about it like that. Just, the reason I'm not concerned is I've known people that worked in it all their lives and never had any problems. I've never had any, so I'm not -- don't have any concern. But you would admit or do you know if there are people in the neighborhoods who have higher levels in their bodies than even you have? Do I know it? Yeah. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032147 85 1 A. 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 A. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 I read it in the paper. Do you know that no one who worked in the Aroclor department has ever, gotten sick because of that? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. I don't know that. MR. CUNNINGHAM: That's all I have . (The deposition concluded at 12:50 p.m.) REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032148 86 1 I do hereby certify that the witness 2 whose attached deposition was taken before me 3 was by me first duly cautioned and sworn to 4 tell nothing but the truth in the cause 5 aforesaid; that the testimony contained herein 6 was by me reduced :to writing in the presence 7 of said witnesses by means of stenography and 8 afterwards transcribed by means of computer 9 aided transcription. The foregoing is a true 1 0 and accurate transcript of the whole of the 1 1 testimony given by said witness, as aforesaid. 12 I do further certify that I am not 13 connected by blood or marriage with any of the 14 parties or their attorneys or agents and that 1 5 I am not an employee of any of them, nor 1 6 interested in the matter of . 1 7 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set 1 8 my hand and affixed my seal at 1 9 Gadsden, Alabama, County of Etowah, this 15th 2 0 day of January 2002. 21 Deborah Salers Garrett 2 2 Certified Shorthand Reporter Registered Professional Reporter 2 3 Notary Public, Alabama-at - Large My Commission expires: 3-6-05 REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032149