Document 93Q7bbDd09zmv1x8w4V64Vbx7
FILE NAME: ALCOA (ALC) DATE: 2003 DOC#: ALC083 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Legal-Deposition of Dinman
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ANTONIO FLORES, et al
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ABLE SUPPLY COMPANY, et al )
CAUSE NO. DOROTHY A. LEHMANN, et al )
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ACandS, INC., et al
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VICTOR KOCIAN, et al
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ACandS, INC., et al
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TERRY CORBIN, et al
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ALCOA, INC., et al
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LADELLA CAFFEY, et al
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AMETEK, INC., et al
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NANCY FLEMINGS, et al
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AMETEK, INC., et al
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OPAL PRAESEL, et al
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AMETEK, INC., et al
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ANITA GARNER, et al
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AMETEK, INC., et al
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VIVIAN WILBURN, et al
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AMETEK, INC., et al
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132 pt 1 Dinman.txt 26,496
IN THE DISTRICT COURT MILAM COUNTY TEXAS 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 26,342 IN THE DISTRICT COURT MILAM COUNTY TEXAS 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 26,469 IN THE DISTRICT COURT MILAM COUNTY TEXAS 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 26,928 IN THE DISTRICT COURT MILAM COUNTY TEXAS 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 28,118 IN THE DISTRICT COURT MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
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28,473 IN THE DISTRICT COURT MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 28,475 IN THE DISTRICT COURT MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
28,474 IN THE DISTRICT COURT MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
28,477 IN THE DISTRICT COURT MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
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EARLENE CARTER, et al
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AMETEK, INC. , et al
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GEORGE SEARS, et al
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GROVER MORGAN , et al
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KATHA JONES, iet al
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MELBA BRUENING, et al
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PATRICIA SCHNEIDER, et al )
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RONALD CEPAK, et al
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MILDRED BUNNS , et al
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HARRY BEAMAN, et al
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BERNADETTE BERAN , et al )
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LAURA BROOKS, et al
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JEANETTE CLARK, et al
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132 pt 1 Dinman.txt 28,503 IN THE DISTRICT COURT MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 28,502 IN THE DISTRICT COURT MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS 20t h j u d i c i a l d i s t r i c t 28,505 IN THE DISTRICT COURT MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS 20t h j u d i c i a l d i s t r i c t
28,506 IN THE DISTRICT COURT MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS 20t h j u d i c i a l d i s t r i c t 28,493 IN THE DISTRICT COURT MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS 20t h j u d i c i a l d i s t r i c t 28,504 IN THE DISTRICT COURT MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS 20TH j u d i c i a l d i s t r i c t 28,501 IN THE DISTRICT COURT MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 28,525 IN THE DISTRICT COURT MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
28,522 IN THE DISTRICT COURT MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 28,523 IN THE DISTRICT COURT MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 28,524 IN THE DISTRICT COURT MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 28,526 IN THE DISTRICT COURT MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS 20TH j u d i c i a l d i s t r i c t 28,527
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT ) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS ) 20t h j u d i c i a l d i s t r i c t
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CAUSE NO. 28,528
2 MARY 30 WOODS, et al
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
3 VS.
) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS
4JC AMETEK, INC., et al
) 20TH j u d i c i a l d i s t r i c t
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CAUSE NO. 28,573
7 VIOLA BARTEK, et al
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
8 VS.
) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS
9 AMETEK, INC., et al
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12 CHRISTIAN GERTHE, et al ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
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) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS
14 AMETEK, INC., et al
) 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
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CAUSE NO. 28,678
17 FRANK BURROUGH, et al
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
18 VS.
) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS
19 AMETEK, INC., et al
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CAUSE NO. 28,685
22 DENNIS HARBOUR, et al
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
23 VS.
) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS
24 AMETEK, INC., et al
) 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
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CAUSE NO. 28,807
2 JOHN DUFFY, ET AL
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
3 VS.
) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS
4qJ AMETEK, INC., et al
) 20t h j u d i c i a l d i s t r i c t
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CAUSE NO. 28,808
7 HENRY DAVIDSON, ET AL
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
8 VS.
) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS
9 AMETEK, INC., et al
) 20t h j u d i c i a l d i s t r i c t
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CAUSE NO. 28,809
12 WILLIAM BROWN, ET AL
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
13 VS.
) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS
14 AMETEK, INC., et al
) 20t h j u d i c i a l d i s t r i c t
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CAUSE NO. 28,812
17 BILLY MILLER, ET AL
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
18 VS.
) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS
19 AMETEK, INC., et al
) 20t h j u d i c i a l d i s t r i c t
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CAUSE NO. 28,813
22 MATTIE MCBRIDE, ET AL
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
23 VS.
) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS
24 AMETEK, INC., et al
) 20th JUDICIAL DISTRICT
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CAUSE NO. 28,814
2 BARBARA BECKER, ET AL
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
3 VS.
) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS
4 Jc;
AMETEK, INC., et al
) 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
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CAUSE NO. 28,815
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MARILYN HICKS,, ET AL VS. AMETEK, INC. , et al
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT ) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS ) 20TH j u d i c i a l d i s t r i c t
CAUSE NO. 28,816
RAYMOND GREEN,, ET AL
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
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) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS
AMETEK, INC. , et al
) 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
CAUSE NO. 28,817
MARJORIE! FISHER, ET AL ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
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) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS
AMETEK, INC. , et al
) 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
CAUSE NO. 28,818
RUTH JOHNSON, ET AL
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
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) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS
AMETEK, INC. , et al
) 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
*ititit**ititit* itititititititi.-***.******************** ORAL DEPOSITION OF
BERTRAM D. DINMAN, M.D. - VOLUME I SEPTEMBER 18, 2003
** it it -ifititititit ititit ititititititititititititititititititititititititititititititit
ORAL DEPOSITION OF BERTRAM D. DINMAN, M.D., produced as a witness duly sworn by me at the instance of the Plaintiffs, taken in the above styled and numbered causes on the 18th day of September, 2003, from 9:01 a.m. to 12:07 p.m., before Misty Fondren Clements, Certified shorthand Reporter No. 4026 in and for the State of Texas, at the Law Offices of LeBouef, Lamb, Green & MacRae, L.L.P., One Gateway Center, 420 Fort Duquesne Blvd., Suite 1600, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15222-1437, pursuant to the Texas Rules of Civil Procedure (and the provisions stated on the record or attached herein).
APPEARANCES FOR THE PLAINTIFFS:
Mr. Timothy R. Cappolino, P.C. CAPPOLINO, DODD & KREBS 312 South Houston Avenue Cameron, Texas 76520 Ph: (254) 697-4965 Fax: (254) 697-4969 FOR THE DEFENDANT, ALCOA, INC.: Mr. Kevin Colbert, Mr. Richard O. Faulk
and Ms. Michelle Schreppel GARDERE, WYNNE & SEWELL, L.L.P. 1000 Louisiana, Suite 3400 Houston, Texas 77002-5007 Ph: (713) 276-5500 Fax: (713) 276-6680 FOR THE DEFENDANT, OWENS-ILLINOIS:
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt Mr. Randolph L. Burns EDWARDS & GEORGE, L.L.P. 208 N. Market Street, Suite 400 Dallas, Texas 75202 Ph: (214) 749-1400 Fax: (214) 749-1010 FOR THE DEFENDANT, 3M COMPANY: Mr. Kevin B. Brown THOMPSON, COE, COUSINS & IRONS, L.L.P. Plaza of the Americas 700 N. Pearl Street, Twenty-Fifth Floor Dallas, Texas 75201 Ph: (214) 871-8200 Fax: (214) 871-8209 FOR THE DEFENDANT, T.H. AGRICULTURE AND NUTRITION: Mr. Frederick Wagner SHEEHY, SERPE & WARE, P.C. 2500 Two Houston Center 909 Fannin Street Houston, Texas 77010-1003 (713) 951-1010 Fax: (713) 951-1199
FOR THE DEFENDANT, HONEYWELL INTERNATIONAL, INC.: Ms. Jill K. Bramiett EPSTEIN, BECKER, GREEN, WICKLIFF & HALL, P.C. Park Central Vii 12750 Merit Drive, Suite 1320 Dallas, Texas 75251-1219 Ph: (972) 628-2450 Fax: (972) 628-2499
FOR THE DEFENDANTS, DANA CORPORATION, UNION CARBIDE AND c e r t a i n t e e d :
Ms. Marisa A. Trasatti DEHAY & ELLISTON, L.L.P. 36 South Charles Street, 13th Floor Baltimore, Maryland 21201 Ph: (410) 783-7225 Fax: (410) 783-7221
FOR THE DEFENDANT, GUARD-LINE, INC.: Mr. Phil Brown (via Telephonic Conference) DOGAN & WILKINSON, P.L.L.C. P.O. Box 1618 Pascagoula, Mississippi 39568 Ph: (228) 762-2272 Fax: (228) 762-3223
FOR THE DEFENDANT, THE QUIGLEY COMPANY: Ms. Pam Rea (Via Telephonic Conference) BEIRNE, MAYNARD & PARSONS, L.L.P. wells Fargo Bank Tower 25 Floor, 1300 Post Oak Boulevard Houston, Texas 77056-3000 Ph: (713) 623-0887 Fax: (713) 960-1527
FOR THE DEFENDANT, PHILLIPS ELECTRONICS: Mr. J. Stevenson Weimer MAYER, BROWN, ROWE & MAW, L.L.P. 700 Louisiana Street, Suite 3600 Houston, Texas 77002-2730 Ph: (713) 221-1651 Fax: (713) 224-6410
ALSO PRESENT: MR. JOHN NICHOLS, VIDEOGRAPHER
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Appearances ...................................
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Stipulations ..................................
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BERTRAM D. DINMAN, M.D.
Examination By Mr. Cappolino ............
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Witness' Signature Page/Corrections .......... .. 146
Reporter's Certificate .......................... 148
TRCP Rule 203 Certification .................. .. 158
EXHIBITS NO. DESCRIPTION 1 Notice of Deposition 2 ALCOA Medical Questionnaire 3 Article by Dinman Dated September 1958 4 ALCOA Memo Dated 5-16-73 5 Enterline Book,"Asbestos and Cancer" 6 Curriculum Vitae 7 NSN Publication Dated September 1935
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STIPULATIONS The parties in the above entitled and numbered cause agree that the Deposition shall be taken pursuant to the Texas Rules of Civil Procedure. The parties agree that all objections as to the form of the questions and the responsiveness of the answer are to be made at the time of the taking of said deposition; but that all other objections are reserved and may be made at the time this deposition, or any part thereof, is offered on the trial. The parties further agree when said deposition has been transcribed it will be forwarded to the witness for examination, notarization and signature and is to be returned to the reporter. If the deposition is not returned to the reporter, an unsigned copy can be used at the time of trial with the same force and effect as though the original had been read and si gned.
(Exhibit No. 1 marked.) BERTRAM D. DINMAN, M.D., having been first duly sworn, testified as follows:
EXAMINATION BY MR. CAPPOLINO:
Q. record,
A. Q. A. Q. A.
Would you state your full name for the please, sir?
Bertram David Dinman. Are you a physician? Yes, sir. What kind of physician are you. Dr. Dinman? well, I'm boarded in preventative medicine,
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt the specialty of occupational medicine, with that designation.
Q. You have a board certification in those areas?
A. Yes, sir. Q. When did you receive that board certification? A. 1960. Q. Dr. Dinman, have you ever had your deposition taken before on any occasion? A. Yes, sir.
Q. si r?
All right. Can you tell me when that was,
A. Deposition was taken on one, two, three, four occasions in conjunction with an action regarding vinyl chloride.
THE REPORTER: Sir, if you could just speak up just a little bit.
THE WITNESS: Oh, certainly. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) The reporter kind of jumped ahead of me on that. I was going to ask you the same thing because sometimes I have a problem hearing, too. A. Okay. Q. So if you could speak up a little bit -A. Certainly. Q. -- so everybody here and especially the reporter can hear it because she has to take it down. A. Right. Q. Do you understand? A. Sure. Q. So you've had your deposition taken four times previous to this one, so certainly you understand the significance of a deposition? A. Yes, sir. Q. And you understand that this reporter, who is an officer of the Court, has sworn you in to tell
the truth, same as if you were sitting in front of a judge and a jury down in Milam County. Do you understand that?
A. Yes, sir. Q. One of the things I wanted to ask you, Dr. Dinman, before we go any farther is, do you have any type of health problems, anything that would affect you giving any testimony today; and, I guess, in terms of total time in giving testimony and whether you'd be able to comprehend my questions or give clear answers? A. The only possible problem is, I guess I'm losing my hearing. Q. Okay. So am I a little bit. A. Okay. Then you know the problem. Q. Yes, sir.
Am I speaking loud enough? A. Yes, sir. Q. If for some reason you can't hear me or you can't understand me, Doctor, would you please tell me to restate or rephrase the question so you will understand because I want to make sure before we all leave here today you've understood my questions; is
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that fai r? A. Yes, sir.
Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt
Q. All right. The four other occasions where you testified regarding vinyl chloride, can you tell me the time period when these depositions took place?
A. Yes, sir. They took place in 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, yes.
Q. Yes, sir. And when you gave these depositions, were you giving them as an expert witness or as a witness or do you know? lust a regular witness for ALCOA?
A. No. it wasn't in conjunction with ALCOA. Q. Okay. For what purpose were you giving the testimony in those vinyl chloride cases? A. What had happened, in 1968 when I was at the University of Michigan, we did a study on vinyl chloride effects. And in 1998 or '99 there were actions going on then regarding some of the people who worked with vinyl chloride. And I don't understand to this day why something that had happened in 1968 was being tried in 2000 and 2001, but for reasons that I don't understand, they were trying some cases that probably happened then. I'm not sure of the details because I wasn't apprised of them, but that was the reason I was there.
Now, I guess -- well, no, I won't guess.
Q. Okay. MR. FAULK: Do we need to go off the
record? MR. CAPPOLINO: Yes. We're going to
have to take a break, Dr. Dinman, to figure this phone situation out.
(Brief lapse in proceedings.) MR. CAPPOLINO: who's on the phone now? MR. COLBERT: who is on the phone? MR. WEIMER: lay weimer for Phillips Electronics. (Discussion off the record.) Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Dr. Dinman, before we had to take a break, you were talking about your testimony in these vinyl chloride cases? A. Right. Q. were you called to testify by any particular party? Were you an expert witness or how did that come about? A. Well, I -- I'm not too sure, but -- yeah, I'm not too sure if I was an expert because I had worked in the study of vinyl chloride at the University of Michigan -- Q. Yes, sir.
A. -- and I was largely -- I'm trying to remember. I largely was questioned on facts of the study and its performance. So it's not clear to me which one I was.
Q. Let me see if I can break it down. Do you recall receiving any type of payment as far as payment for expert testimony in those cases?
A. oh, yes. Yes, sir. Page 8
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt Q. And do you recall who the individual or maybe the law firm was who paid you for your expert testimony? A. well, I'm not sure I'd characterize it as expert testimony, it was a fact -- fact issues about the performance of the studies, and I had performed the study at the University of Michigan. Q. That's fine.
Do you recall who paid you for your fact testimony?
A. A firm here in town. Q. A firm in Pittsburgh? A. Yes. Q. You don't recall the name? A. Well, I should, but I can't at the moment. Q. And those cases were in litigation with lawsuits filed; correct?
A. I presume -- well, I have to presume so, but I ...
Q. Okay. Have you ever given any testimony prior to today with regard to any issues relating to asbestos and asbestos exposure?
A. No, sir. Q. When you tell me that you're board certified in preventative medicine, part of occupational medicine; is that correct? A. Well, preventative medicine is the general title of the group. It includes occupational medicine, aerospace medicine, general preventative medicine, public health, all under the rubric of preventative medicine. Q. Dr. Dinman, what is preventative medicine? Can you give me a description of what that means? A. Preventative medicine is the study and practice of those measures which are of use and -- of use and which will prevent the occurrence, the progression or -- occurrence or progression of disease processes arising from a working environment as far as occupational medicine is concerned -Q. Yes, sir. A. -- whereas with public health, it's with the general environment; and with aerospace, it's the
aerospace environment. Q. So it would be true that preventative
medicine would apply to workers exposed to asbestos and trying to use means to prevent them from getting an asbestos-related disease?
MR. COLBERT: objection, form. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) is that correct?
MR. COLBERT: Same objection. MR. CAPPOLINO: Basis, counsel? MR. COLBERT: It's vague, and it's a multifaceted question. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) You can answer it, Doctor. A. Well, occupational medicine would fit under that rubric, yes. Q. And what experience, Dr. Dinman, have you had with regard to preventative medicine in the area of asbestos exposure? A. When I was medical director of ALCOA, I had
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt the responsibility for assuring the corporation that all materials that they worked with or conditions of work would not be injurious to health. And it was our responsibility to assure that the measures were taken to prevent the occurrence of either exposure or the occurrence of disease or the progression of
disease. Q. Let me get a time frame here so this will
give us a little bit of a guideline, when were you employed by ALCOA?
A. Yes. I started working for them in 1973 and retired in -- oh, my Lord -- 1986.
Q. Mr. Tom Bonney, whose deposition Kevin Colbert for ALCOA took yesterday, testified that you joined ALCOA in 1974. That's incorrect, isn't it?
A. well -MR. COLBERT: Objection, form.
Q- (By Mr. cappolino) Is that incorrect? A. Well, I joined ALCOA in '73. Q. All right. Do you know Mr. Bonney? A. oh, yes. Q. How do you know Mr. Bonney? A. He worked for me. Q. when you say he worked for you, did he 1 for you when you were starting with ALCOA in '74? A. Well, Mr. Cralley was the head of that division, and Tom worked for him and they worked for me. And then Mr. Cralley retired shortly after I joined, and Tom had the responsibility for the industrial hygiene division. So he worked for me from that point on. So I guess '74 is -- I think '74
is probably true, but it was pretty mixed up because Tom was working directly with me, along with Lester Cralley. But if you look at the organizational chart, it would be from me to Les to Tom.
Q. Okay, when you came to ALCOA in 1974 -A. in '73. Q. I'm sorry, in '73, and I guess all the way up until 1986, did you ever review any of the internal corporate documents from ALCOA prior to 1973 regarding asbestos? A. Specifically asbestos, is what you're asking me? Q. Yes, sir. And let me see if I can help break that down.
Did you review any corporate internal documents prior to 1973 that were ALCOA's that had to do with prevention of asbestos-related injuries to ALCOA employees?
A. Well, I -- it's sort of speculative as to what I had reviewed from previous periods. I reviewed a large number of documents relating to multiple issues, various issues, various issues in occupational health.
Q. okay. And these -- these documents were dated prior to 1973 that you reviewed?
A. I really can't remember specific unless --
Q. Okay. A. well, I'd be speculating then.
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt Q. when you joined ALCOA in 1973 and up to 1986, did you gain any knowledge as to what methods or procedures ALCOA undertook to prevent any of its employees from getting an asbestos-related disease?
MR. COLBERT: Objection, form. A. Well, since asbestos was one of multiple hazards that we had to tend with and, of course, in my responsibilities I was -- I would guess -- that's the best I can say -- that among the various documents and various issues that we had to address, that there probably was, but I can only say probably was documents of that sort because there were many other issues which were more important at that -- not more important; I would say more pressing at that time. Q. The reason I'm asking you that, Dr. Dinman, is to try to speed this deposition up and make it as brief as I can in the time I have, and I'm trying to avoid asking you any questions about any pre-1973 documents at ALCOA. A. Sure, yes, sir.
Q. When you got hired on in '73, your focus, I assume, in your position was trying to help ALCOA from '73 through '86?
A. That's when I had direct input, what happened with ALCOA.
Q. Yes, sir. A. So anything before is water over the dam. Q. Yes, sir, I understand.
And when you were hired on in 1973, the OSHA regulations had come out with regard to asbestos; correct?
A. well, the rule-making, as I understand it, was -- and I'm trying to remember -- was a rather protractive sort of thing. It went on and on and on, and I don't remember if in '73 -- I wish I could remember. I can't remember what the status was of the rule-making process then.
Q. Okay. A. That's the problem. Q. Dr. Dinman, do you -- and again, I'm not trying to be hard on you, but do you nave any problems with your memory today? Do you have a pretty good memory for a man your age, do you think? A. I have a fairly good memory for today. Q. Yes, sir.
A. But when we get into very specific details, obviously I'm -- we're talking about -- what is that now? 20 something years later.
Q. Correct. A. So the details of my memory? No. Q. I understand.
Prior to today's deposition, did you review any documentation or any type of documents to help prepare you for this deposition?
A. Yes, sir. Q. Could you, please, tell me what you reviewed? A. well, I reviewed the general literature as regards asbestos. I reviewed regulations as they subsequent appeared and the rule-making and the
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt C.F.R. documents as regards the standards, formulations that were issued by Department of Labor, rather late though because the standards went -- had undergone a number of changes over a period of time.
Q. Okay. C.F.R., meaning Code of Federal Regulati ons?
A. Yes, sir. Q. What else did you review, sir? A. Oh, the general literature as regards asbestos. Q. We talked about that, the general literature as regards asbestos; the regulations, Code of Federal Regulations. What else did you review, if you recall? A. I had found a document which I had taken out of the files for teaching purposes, subsequent teaching purposes, in which we set up, for example, a questionnaire to be used for employees who had asbestos exposures. Q. Yes, sir. Okay, what else did you review, if you recall, if anything else? A. Nothing specific, no. Q. Okay. Did you review any corporate internal documents from ALCOA prior to 1973 to prepare you for this deposition? A. No. No, I didn't have them. I left the files -- when I left ALCOA, I left the files at ALCOA. The only one thing I pulled out was that examination form that we developed. I'd pulled it out for subsequent teaching purposes. Q. Yes, sir. Can you tell me a little bit about this examination form? And the first question I want to ask you is, when was this examination form prepared? A. I'm not sure -Q. All right. A. -- because it's a -- there's a date on it, but I'm not too sure what that date meant. Q. Do you have a copy of that examination form anywhere? A. Yes, sir. Q. I think Mr. Colbert's pulling it out here and handing it to you. A. Yes. This is the form. Q. Is that the only copy that you have, or can I attach that to the deposition? A. It's the only copy I have. Q. All right. Well, we can make a copy, but I would like to attach it to the deposition.
MR. COLBERT: Here is a copy. THE WITNESS: There you go. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Before we go into this form -- and I'm sorry for skipping around, but I want to ask you -- first of all, just for purposes of mostly record-keeping and to see what you have reviewed, I'm going to hand you, Dr. Dinman, what has been marked as Dinman Exhibit No. 1. And Dinman Exhibit No. 1, I'll represent to you to be what we call a notice of your deposition with a subpoena duces tecum; subpoena
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt duces tecum, meaning we requested that you provide certain documents, if you have them either in your actual or constructive possession. I want to hand this to you, sir, let you look at it -- it's Exhibit 1 -- and ask you if you have received a copy of that prior to today's deposition?
A. No. I've never seen this. Q. You've never seen that subpoena duces tecum and notice? And you may want to look on the back two or three pages because that may be what you received.
MR. COLBERT: Look at all the pages, Dr. Dinman.
A. (Witness reviews document.) Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Okay. Have you looked at all the pages of the notice of your deposition and subpoena duces tecum that I handed to you marked as Exhibit 1? A. I haven't read this in full. Q. That's okay. Take your time. A. The C.v., yes, obviously. Q. You're looking at the last page, which is marked as Exhibit A, Dr. Dinman. And I believe there was -- I can't see through your hand. I'm sorry -- 1 through 9, certain documentation we requested you
provide. Have you seen that Exhibit A before today? A. No. I have not seen this. Q. Okay. Nobody provided that to you from
ALCOA? A. No, not ALCOA, no. Q. Did you even see that today before this
deposition, before I started asking you questions? A. No, sir. Q. All right. Have you had -- and I can give
you some more time if you need it, sir. Have you had opportunity to look at those documents to see if you have anything responsive to those documents?
A. I'd like to take the time. Q. I'm sorry? A. I'd like to take the time. Q. That's fine, sir. A. Well, that refers -- first one, for example, refers to medical literature or scientific literature in general. Q. Okay. Let me go ahead and read that one and see if you have any documents responsive to that request. No. 1: "Copies of all documents and photos you have that indicate or explain, in any way, any clanger of exposure to asbestos that was written or produced prior to 1980."
Do you have anything today in response to that request?
A. Well, I didn't bring them; textbooks, general textbooks of occupational medicine --
Q. Okay. A. -- for one thing. Q. But you did testify that to prepare you for this deposition you reviewed general literature on asbestos? A. Yes, sir. Q. Now, let me ask you, what general
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt literature did you review?
A. Oh, general literature. Texts; a treatise on asbestos studies which was prepared by Professor Enterli ne.
Q. I'm sorry. Professor who? A. Enterline. Q. How do you spell his name? A. E-N-T-E-R-L-I-N-E, Philip Enterline. Q. All right. A. He's professor of biostatistics at the University of Pittsburgh, School of Public Health. Q. Okay. A. well, he's retired. He's professor emeritus, I should say.
Q. All right. A. And general texts. Q. Anything else that you recall, sir, any other general literature? A. I'm trying to remember specific literature. I -- there was -- I'm sort of confused between what I read in textbooks and what articles I may have read, but I'm not too clear that I read specific articles because I depend on reviews. Q. Yes, sir. is there anything else that you recall reading, other than what you just told me? A . No. Q. Did you review any type of articles written by Lewis Cralley -A. No. Q. -- or Lester Cralley? A. I get mixed up too. Q. They're brothers, aren't A. They're twins, of course . Q. Yes, sir.
Di d you revi ew any 1iterature that
A. NO. Q. -- wrote -- and before I ask you that, have ever published any literature, yourself, on
asbestos? A. Okay. I'm trying to remember. I published
over 150 articles, so I just never made a real study or consider myself an expert in regards to asbestos, it was one of the responsibilities I had. it was one of the subjects we taught. But frankly, aside from necessity of being able to teach and responsibility we had as far as ALCOA's concerned, I didn't spend much time in asbestos because of all the problems it had as far as the development of knowledge regarding asbestos, it's been a long history of literature, going back maybe as far as the '20s or '30s.
Q. Yes, sir. A. And it's been very contentious all along the way from the point of view of science, so that it's a back and forth situation as far as development of knowledge. It's a very contentious one, scientifically speaking. And frankly, I didn't want to get into asbestos to that extent except that I had responsibility for it at ALCOA.
MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, nonresponsive.
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Let me ask you again, if you know, you say you've published over 150 arti cles?
A. Yes. uh-huh. Q. Do any of those articles have to do with asbestos and asbestos exposure? A. Not primarily. There's very few, if any. I'd have to review my C.V., which it's around here someplace. Q. Okay. A. But it wasn't subjects that I was extensively involved in. Q. Are you an epidemiologist? A. No. I can't claim to be that. I've done epidemiologic studies with epidemiologists in collaboration; but to claim to be an epidemiologist in the full sense of the term, that is, like a professor of epidemiology, no, I can't do that. Q. Yes, sir. You have not done any epidemiological -- A. No, sir. Q. Let me finish my question. A. Okay. Q. Part of the problem we have, Dr. Dinman -again, it's not your fault, but I've got to finish my question before you answer so the reporter can take it down. A. I'm sorry.
Q. That's okay. Have you done any epidemiological
studies on asbestos? A. No, not on asbestos. Q. But you have read epidemiological studies
on asbestos? A. Yes. Q. Okay. A. But that question is not fully answered.
Have I done any epidemiological studies on asbestos? The answer, as I've stated, I've done other epidemiologic studies in collaboration with epidemiologists. And, of course, we alluded to the vinyl chloride --
Q. Right. A. -- which was an epidemiologic study; and another one at ALCOA on cancer. Q. Okay. We'll get back to the literature in a second.
What was your position or what were you hired on as at ALCOA as far as your title? What was your title?
A. My first title was corporate medical director. And then when Dr. Colwell died, I was promoted to his job as vice-president for health and
safety. Q.
working A. Q. A. Q.
Okay. Prior to working at ALCOA, were you with the Public Health Service?
No. where did you work prior to ALCOA? I was at the university of Michigan. And what did you do at the university of
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt Mi chi gan?
A. University of Michigan, I was director of the division of occupational medicine. And we did teaching of students, both before graduation and physicians who had came to the university of Michigan for specialized training in occupational medicine.
we also did epidemiologic research there on the vinyl chloride situation. And we did some scientific experiments using humans and/or animals on toxicology; carbon monoxide, for one thi ng.
Q. Do you have any expertise in toxicology? A. Yes, sir. Q. What expertise do you have? A. I was one of the founding members of the American Board of Toxicology. I was a physician member. They needed a physician, I guess, on the board in trying to formulate how the board would
operate; and I would give examinations that we formulated in conjunction with other toxicologists --
Q. Yes, sir. A. -- the examinations.
So I was not -- I was a member of the board, but I was not -- I'm not certified in toxicology. We were grandfathered because they had to get -- they had arrived at a rule which said that there would be nobody who would be certified as a toxicologist without examination. So they had to get somebody to put together a board examination but who didn't have to take -- wasn't going to need the boards because they were recognized as toxicologists.
Q. Okay. Toxicology has to do with toxic substances; is that true?
A. in a very general -- Q. As a general sense -A. -- sense, yes, sir. Q. How would you define the word "toxic" with regard to a "toxic" substance? A. "Toxic" would mean it has a deleterious effect upon people, animals, et cetera. Q. Would you consider asbestos a toxic substance? A. Well, that depends. It depends on -- and
this is very basic toxicology, bearing on your previous question.
Q. I understand. A. There's a very basic premise in toxicology which dates back to the 16th century that says in Latin, "Dotis facto noxius," which essentially says, "The dose makes the poison." So whether a material is toxic or not depends on a number of variables, the most important of which is the variable of how much material was presented to an animal or human over what period of time. Q. Yes, sir. So with asbestos, if you have a certain dose of asbestos -A. Yes. Q. -- let's say that exceeds threshold limit values and a worker is exposed to that over a long period of time, say, 20, 25 years, in the context of that question, would you consider asbestos to be a
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt potentially a toxic substance?
MR. COLBERT: Objection, form. A. Potentially.
Q. A. Q. mean?
(By Mr. Cappolino) Yes, sir. Potentially? Potentially. When you say "potentially," what do you
A. I mean, dependent upon dose, which is a combination of time, duration of exposure, okay, and the concentration of the material in question.
Q. Do you consider asbestos to be a potentially-toxic substance?
A. Well, in the sense -- well, let me try to approach it this way. This is also dating back to the 16th Century, Paracelsus. He said that everything and anything is toxic. Oxygen, which is absolutely necessary for life, if I give you -- put you under three atmospheres of pressure of oxygen for 48 to -- 48 to 72 hours, you're going to be dead.
So depending upon dose and the amount of dose concentration, time, everything and anything is toxic. So you always have to specify in terms of how much, what condition the person's under, too, depending on previous state of health, for example. Multiple variables enter into whether or not something is toxic or not.
MR. CAPPOLINO: Let me just object on the record -- and I have to for purposes of the record, Dr. Dinman -- as nonresponsive.
Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Do you consider asbestos to be a potentially-toxic substance if you have a certain quantity or dosage over a period of
time? MR. COLBERT: Objection, form.
Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) You can answer it. A. in a very general sense, in a general sense in that, again, it depends upon the state of health, for example, in addition to dose. It depends on the state of health and depends upon the multiple intrinsic state that's sometimes hard for us to define who is susceptible and who is not. Q. Let me see if I can put it another way.
Under what situations would you consider asbestos to be a toxic substance?
A. If the dose -- which, again, the length of time of exposure -- and the amount of asbestos in the air exceeds a limit -- now, it's not a very cleanly-defined limit, it's not like a speed limit where at 20 miles an hour you're legal and 25 miles an hour you're not legal. So the dose even there -- the dose is very central. Even there you cannot predict who's going to get into trouble with any type of exposure, be it asbestos or anything else.
Q. Yes, sir. is there individual susceptibility?
A. Individual, thank you. Yes, sir. That's a good way to put it.
Q. is there any safe level of asbestos exposure that you know of?
A. Subject to the other conditions. Again, Page 17
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt individual susceptibility is a pretty important one; smoking; all of these issues. Is there a safe level?
Q. Yes, sir. A. well, there must be a safe level because, more or less, we are all subject to inhaling asbestos fibers in the general environment. Q. But in the occupational environment where asbestos is being used, those workers would be exposed to more asbestos than somebody just walking down the street? A. In a general --
MR. COLBERT: Objection, form. Is there a question?
MR. CAPPOLINO: That was the question.
Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Is that correct? MR. COLBERT: Objection, form.
A. Down the street. Well, as long as you don't specify down the street under what conditions --
Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) All right. Say if I
was walking outside over by Hines Field, would I be opposed to more asbestos than a person working in a factory where asbestos-containing products were being used?
MR. COLBERT: Objection, form. A. In a general sense, you would be -- rephrase the question -- restate the question. I'm sorry. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) All right. You have different exposures to asbestos in your experience with this substance, Doctor. Number one, you have exposure to asbestos as an employee if you're working, say, in a textile factory or some other plant where asbestos-containing products are used, versus somebody that's just out walking down the street; is that correct? A. (Witness nods head.)
MR. COLBERT: Objection, form. A. You've posed it in a very specific situation there. You talked of a textile factory. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Yes. That's an example. A. That's a very unusual -- let's say, it's unusual in the sense that it's not done anymore. And since we're talking in general terms, that's a very
high exposure. So, yes, under those circumstances; but there are exposures and there are exposures.
Q. And there were exposures at ALCOA, were there not, to asbestos? And let's talk specifically about the Rockdale plant.
MR. COLBERT: Objection, form. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Weren't there? A. Oh, yes, there were. Q. in fact, asbestos at ALCOA was ubiquitous at one point in time, wasn't it?
MR. COLBERT: Objection, form. A. Well, that's a generalization which I can't quite agree with. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Prior to this
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt deposition, did you ever read the prior deposition of Thomas Bonney --
A. NO. Q. -- that was taken a few years ago? A. No. Q. He described asbestos at ALCOA as being ubiquitous. Do you know what ubiquitous means?
MR. COLBERT: Objection, form. A. Ubiquitous. All over, I guess. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Do you know whether or not prior to 1973 asbestos was ubiquitous at any of
the ALCOA plants? A. Prior to 1973? MR. COLBERT: Objection, form. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) yes, sir. A. Prior to -- well, that's -- what happened
prior to 1973 would be speculative on my part. Q. Okay. A. I'm just guessing. Q. Well, let's talk about from 1973 to 1986. A. Yes, sir. Q. do you know whether or not any
asbestos-containing products were at any of the ALCOA plants?
A. Yes, sir. Q. All right. Let me talk about Rockdale specifically. A. Okay. Q. were you familiar at all with the Rockdale plant in Milam County from 1973 through 1986? A. I knew of conditions there. I visited the plant on several occasions. So to that extent, I knew what conditions were extant. Q. Okay. Did that plant have asbestos-containing products in it from 1973 through 1986?
A. In the general sense, they did. Q. which products were they, sir? A. Well, there were the transite headers which went from the potline to the exhaust system, exhaust for the aluminum reduction cells. There were sheet material, not pure asbestos, which contained asbestos, not pure asbestos, which were used in casti ng. Q. Okay. A. And sort of like -- like rubber -- not rubber, but like -- what's the word I'm looking for? Q. I wish I knew. A. What? Q. I wish I knew. Go ahead though, Doctor. A. What's the rubber seal that you put between a -- Q. Gaskets? A. Gaskets. Thank you.
There were gaskets that were fabricated from sheets of asbestos-containing material which served as sort of a gasket between a joint from where aluminum was poured into a pouring -- we'll call it nozzle, but it was not a nozzle.
Q. Okay. Anything else that you recall? Any Page 19
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt
other asbestos-containing products at Rockdale that you are aware of?
A. That I can recall, those are the two major ones. And, of course, these gaskets were fabricated. So that meant the people in some of the shops had these, relatively low asbestos-containing, but they did contain asbestos --
Q. Okay. A. -- materials that they worked with.
These transite headers which were a major use of asbestos -- of a material containing asbestos, I should say, were the ones that we were concerned about the most because they would degrade with heat over long periods of time. They had to be replaced.
Q. When they'd degrade with heat, Dr. Dinman, what would happen? What do you mean? And why were you concerned with that?
MR. COLBERT: Objection, form. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) well, let's break it down. Why were you concerned with the degradation of the gaskets? A. Well, because they had to be replaced. Q. When they degraded, were any asbestos fibers released, as far as you know?
A. Not exterior wise, but when they were taken down.
Q. what would happen when they were taken down?
A. When they were taken down, they had to be taken down carefully. People were careful as they could be, but there could be some breakage there, unintended breakage. So they had to be taken down carefully with enclosement (sic), try to minimize any exposure. Of course, you had to depend upon people to do that.
Q. Do you know whether or not marinite was ever used --
A. Ah, yes. Q. -- at Rockdale? A. Marinite was used. That was one of the major materials in these gaskets. Q. Do you know what marinite was? A. Generally, I knew it was a material that contained asbestos. How much, I didn't know. But it contained asbestos, so it was a matter of concern. Q. Do you know if this marinite was ever sawed for any purposes at Rockdale? A. Particularly in the fabrication of these gaskets.
Q. Did this marinite contain asbestos, as far as you recall?
A. Yes, sir. We considered it to contain asbestos.
Q. In your role from '73 on at ALCOA, did you have any concerns, medical concerns about asbestos exposure to employees from the sawing of marinite?
A. Yes, sir. Q. what concerns did you have? A. That there would be undue exposure,
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt careless usage, if there was adequate ventilation at the site of sawing. And so everything would be served to minimize the dispersal of asbestos. It was a matter of concern.
Q. Dr. Dinman, do you recall whether or not any asbestos-containing materials were used in any of the potlining operations or pot --
A. Ah. Q. -- or taken out of potlining at ALCOA Rockdale?
too,
A. Yes, sir. Q. Tell us -A. That was a major -- that was another one right. Q. Can you tell us what you recall about that?
A. when the pot had been in use for a number of hundred hours, the pot would degrade and the pot, therefore, had to be dug out. And it was pretty solid at that point.
Now, there was a special crew which did this job, this pot-digging job, and the pot was taken out of line, it was sometimes -- I can't recall more often or not or what, but sometimes it was taken off the line to a pot repair, shell repair site, where it was dug out. I can't recall how much there was of digging out of the pot while it was still in place on the line, but --
MR. COLBERT: if you can't recall, don't speculate.
THE WITNESS: Okay. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Do you recall what type of asbestos-containing materials were used in the lining of any of these pots at Rockdale? A. Asbestos was in these lining sheets, but that is as much as I knew. Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not any asbestos fibers would be released when any of the digging of the pots would occur?
MR. COLBERT: Objection, form. MR. CAPPOLINO: Basis?
MR. COLBERT: Question is vague. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) You can answer it. A. I had -- I presumed, we all presumed that this potential existed. So we, accordingly, were concerned about it and took the necessary precauti ons. Q. Now, you say you presumed that fibers would be released when pot-digging operations would occur; is that correct? A. I believe so, yes. Q. Why do you presume and not know for a fact that that would occur? A. Well, we didn't measure every pot that was being removed. We measured asbestos exposures on multiple of the pots, sufficient to get a good idea of what the potential was for release. So we had a working basis upon which to take precautions. Q. Yes, sir. Let me ask you, Dr. Dinman -you said that you measured or people with ALCOA measured the dust that was released when the pot-digging operations occurred; is that correct?
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when
A. Q. that A.
Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt That is my understanding. Do you recall when that began at ALCOA, measuring began? No, I don't. I suspect that -- well, I
don't know. Q. Do you know if it ever occurred before
1973? A. I would have to speculate that it did. I
knew it was not an unknown issue at that time in '73. It was a concern at that time.
MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, nonresponsive. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Let me just see if I can ask it in maybe a more clear fashion.
Have you read any documents from ALCOA that indicate any measuring of dust being done at ALCOA in the potlining operation prior to 1973?
A. That's a very specific question, do I recall. I have to presume it, but that's the best I can do. To specifically -- I can't really go beyond that without speculating, I guess.
Q. Again, let me just ask you one more way. Do you know for a fact whether or not prior to 1973 ALCOA did any type of dust measuring in the potlining operation?
A. That -MR. COLBERT: Objection, form. You can answer the question.
Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) You can answer it. A. Well, ALCOA had a good industrial hygiene
department. They had the Cralleys -- or Lester, I guess. I confuse Lester and Lewis. They had the Cralley -- one of the Cralley brothers there. And they had been an industrial hygiene operation before I came, well before I came, so that when I came there, it was not a new subject at all.
MR. c a p p o l i n o : Object, nonresponsive. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) when you came to ALCOA, asbestos was not a new subject at all? A. No. Q. What do you mean by that? A. It was a matter of fairly concern; that is, it was a potential -- there was a potential and we recognized that. And so we -- knowing what the performance of that department was, that's one of the reasons I went there. Q. Yes, sir. A. This was a competent department.
MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, nonresponsive. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Part of your role when you went to ALCOA, Dr. Dinman, was to try to -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- was to try to prevent injury to workers from asbestos exposure? Am I making a correct statement? A. Part of my role.
Q. A. Q. A. that we matters
Yes. You have to qualify. I know you had other roles. There were other many -- many other things were concerned about, but it was one of the of concern.
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt Q. And what was your role -- as a person in the medical area of ALCOA, what was your role to try to prevent injury to workers from asbestos exposure at ALCOA?
MR. COLBERT: Objection, form. You can answer the question. A. Okay. My role as a medical director reporting to Miles Colwell, the vice-president, was to assure that things were done in the plant sufficient to provide protection of the health and safety -- well, not safety until became vice-president -- sufficient to provide protection of the health of workers. Therefore, I had to be responsible to see that all measures were taken, which included industrial hygiene. Q. (By Mr. cappolino) I want to concentrate on asbestos exposure at this point. What measures do you recall, which you had a role in, were taken to prevent asbestos-related disease in ALCOA employees
at Rockdale? MR. COLBERT: Objection, form. MR. CAPPOLINO: Basis? MR. COLBERT: The question is vague.
Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) You can answer it, Doctor.
MR. COLBERT: You can answer the question, but answer the question that he's asked.
A. well, when I say that I was sure that all the measures were taken to protect the health and safety of the workers, that included that adequate measurements of the work environment were taken by the industrial hygiene people, people who reported to me; and, therefore, it was my responsibility to assure that happened.
Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Okay. What other measures were taken?
A. Now, you want to be specific to asbestos or what?
Q. well, this litigation. Dr. Dinman -- are you aware that this litigation is about asbestos exposure?
A. Oh, yes. Yes, sir. Q. That's what I'm talking about, A. okay.
Q. Now I'm talking and continuing on the questions about when you came to ALCOA from '73 on --
A. Uh-huh. Q. -- what measures were taken that you had a role in to prevent asbestos-related disease in ALCOA employees at Rockdale. One of the things you mentioned was adequate measurements by the industrial hygiene people who reported to you? A. Right. Q. What other measures do you recall being taken? A. We also were responsible for working with engineering to assure that adequate ventilation was employed at those sites where potential asbestos exposures could occur. Q. Yes, sir. What else? A. We also set up medical examinations,
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt looking at measures such as breathing capacity tests, x-rays. Those are the major medical -- and also a history, a work history particularly, and potential exposure history for all employees.
Q. All right. Mr. Colbert had provided me the this document with regard to asbestos history form, the questionnaire?
A. Yes, sir. Q. is that part of what we're talking about? A. That's part of what we're talking about, that's correct. Q. I'll probably want to attach this, but you don't recall when this document was compiled, the questionnaire and the exposure history? A. well, I'm looking at it and I am trying to establish a date on here, which is rather strange. You may have found a date in here -Q. Well, I just saw this document, so -A. -- but I'm not sure.
Okay. I've looked at this several times to try to come up with an understanding of the date, but I'm not quite sure. I suspect -- well, I really -- unless you can find a date on here for me, I really can't --
Q. The only date that I see, Dr. Dinman, is on the first page.
A. First page. Q. It has, "Amendatory Section (Amending Order 87-06, filed 4/27/87.)" Is that the only date you see on this document? A. Well, I'd have to look. The only date here on Page 56 is the bottom, but that's a history, and so -Q. Yes, sir. A. - - i t covers the times when they might have worked in the past. So in that regard, that's one day, but I don't think that's a -- I don't think that's the date this was written. Q. Let me see if I can -- and again, I don't want you to speculate. Nobody would want you to -- A. Yeah. I don't want to. Q. -- but let me ask you this question. Can you tell me whether or not this document was prepared in the 1970s, from 1973 through 1979? A. Well, it must have been during the time I was there or else I wouldn't have the document. Q. Well, that would be from '73 through '86? A. Right. Q. But you don't know whether or not this document would have been prepared from '73 through '79 or from '80 through '86? A. No. I can't really be sure of that. Q. Okay. We can't tell from the document itself, and you don't recall from your memory when it was prepared; is that a correct statement? A. Except that it had to be prepared when I was there -Q. Yes, sir. A. -- in the course of my tenure.
MR. CAPPOLINO: Okay. Let me go ahead Page 24
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and have that marked.
Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt
(Exhibit No. 2 marked.) MR. COLBERT: We've been going for about an hour, if we could just take a snort break. MR. CAPPOLINO: Sure. (Recess from 9:57 to 10:09.) Q. (By Mr. cappolino) Dr. Dinman, I'm going to hand what you the reporter has marked as Dinman Exhibit No. 2, and this is the document we've been
talking about for the past few questions. Let me just hand it to you, sir, and ask you, could you identify what Exhibit No. 2 is?
A. Okay. Pages 55 to 67 are an initial medical questionnaire.
Q. Yes, sir. A. And it's in two parts, one is the medical questionnaire and the other one is a periodic medical questionnaire which -- yeah -- which goes over general health, smoking history, which is very important to us, symptoms referable to the respiratory tract. Work history is very important, and then history concerning questions which deal with -- which consist of questions dealing with the
state of the respiratory apparatus in the individual.
There are appended here -- something which I don't remember even how it got here -- what appears to be material taken from some -- some source regarding some of the guidelines of what has to be done to meet OSHA criteria for examinations.
Q. Yes, sir. A. That, I don't think -- we obviously didn't formulate those, but we formulated all the material through Page 67. Q. Okay. A. well, no, I take that back. We're quoting here on the last two paragraphs of Page 67 what -well, I'm not sure where that quote -- looks like it comes from -- I'm guessing here. Looks like it comes from regulations or something of that sort. Q. Dr. Dinman, does that exhibit appear to you to be a true and correct copy of the questionnaire and the other documentation you mentioned that was from another source that was used at ALCOA between 1973 and 1986? A. Let me hear the first part of your question agai n . Q. Is that a true and correct copy of the
questionnaire, of the pages that you mentioned related to the questionnaire that you recall?
A. It's still not very clear to me. Q. Let me ask you another question before we talk about this document anymore, Dr. Dinman.
Have you ever had a stroke? A. No, sir. Q. Have you ever had any type of condition involving any type of cerebral vascular accident, anything involving your brain, any type of injury? A. Yes, sir. Q. Can you tell us what you had, sir? A. I had a skull fracture and a subdural
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hematoma Q- When did that occur? A. With the millennium. Q. 2000? A. Yes, sir. Q. And, of course, I know you're a physician,
but -- A. Yes, sir. Q. -- can you tell us whether or not you feel
that's affected your memory or your ability to testi fy in any way?
A. I'm not aware of it.
Q. Okay. Let me just ask you again on Exhibit No. 2, does that appear to be a true copy of the questionnaire that you were familiar with at ALCOA for exposures?
A. A true copy? Yes, sir. Very explicit. A copy. A copy? Yeah. Well -Or do you know? I'm not too sure. Okay. What role did you have in helping
formulate Dinman Exhibit No. 2? Did you have any input into this document?
Again, I'd have to speculate on that. Okay. it appeared from someplace. I had it in my files. Q. Okay. A. I used it as a format for teaching. It came from someplace and it had to come from ALCOA because that's the only kind of thing that I would -that's one of the few things I took out of the file
wi th m e . Q. Do you have any knowledge as to what
individuals at ALCOA had any input into this document as far as helping write it or put it together?
A. Well, undoubtedly -- again, I'd have to -- I'm guessing here, but it's a reasonable guess, that Dr. Belk, who was my medical director, worked for me, was involved in the formulation of this.
Q. All right. Dr. Belk was there when you were at ALCOA?
A. Yes. He was medical director when I was vice-president.
Q. Do you know what a medical director's role was at ALCOA, Dr. Belk's role? What was his role?
A. Well, the same as I had before. It was the direct responsibility for the medical functions, the treatment and prevention.
Q. Okay. You had mentioned Dr. Miles Colwell? A. Yes, sir. Q. is he a physician? A. Yes, sir. Q. What role did Dr. Colwell have at ALCOA? A. He had the same role I subsequently had, vice-president for health, safety and environment.
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt Q. when you were hired on at ALCOA, Dr. Colwell was there; correct,.sir? A. Correct. Q. Did you report to him? A. Yes, sir. Q. When you came on at ALCOA in 1973, did you have any discussions with Dr. Colwell about whether any type of questionnaire, such as Exhibit No. 2, were ever compiled with regard to exposures to employees at ALCOA, prior to 1973? A. Prior to 1973, I have problems trying to guess at what was done. That was only by speculation or experience and implications -Q. Okay. A. -- but -Q. what I'm asking you though is, did you have any -- or did Dr. Colwell tell you -- do you recall him ever telling you whether or not any questionnaires like this, Exhibit No. 2, had been compiled at ALCOA prior to 1973? A. I don't recall that we had explicit, specific discussions of this particular issue. It certainly would come under the general purview of the function of the medical department and what the medical department was expected to do. Q. Okay. Have you ever been involved in a
clinical medical practice? A. Yes, sir. Q. Tell us what your experience is in that
area. A. Immediately after my internship, my
internship in Philadelphia in 1951 and '52, I had another year of training as -- in internal medicine. And during that period of time, I practiced in northeast Philadelphia. Then that was -- let's see, '51, '52. And then '52, '53, I practiced in north Philadelphia in clinical practice of medicine.
Q. Okay. A. Was general, but mostly internal medicine. So that was '53 to '54. Q. Okay. A. So during that time I did practice.
Now, when I got to Ohio State, I was teaching. I worked in the clinic there, occupational medicine clinic there. And I also worked as a physician for western Electric who had started a plant in Columbus, and I worked there part time as the physician at the plant from '57 to about 1960.
Q. Okay. A. In the course of my graduate training in occupational medicine, we spent one year in the
field, and I spent that year at DuPont. I rotated through half a dozen or so plants, making different products and acting as the physician at their medical facilities at these plants or acting in concord with the medical director there.
Q. Okay. A. So these were the clinical responsibilities, the clinical medicine responsibilities I've had.
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt We did clinic practice at Ohio State. And I'm trying to remember. Did they in Michigan? I had an appointment as clinical assistant professor of internal medicine at the university of Michigan. I was consulted in the hospital on the floors for occupational health issues that needed consultation. Did the same thing at Ohio State, too, of course. Q. Let's talk a little bit about Philadelphia, when you had your clinical practice there. From what I recall of Philadelphia, there's some shipyards there, isn't there, or do you know? A. Well, there were shipyards, but not at the time we practiced. Q. Not in the '50s? A. By the time of the '50s, no. Sunship, which was the major one -- and Naval shipyard --
Sunship was out of business. Naval Shipyard continued some years, but not shipbuilding, ship repai r mostly.
Q. in your clinical practice, what you've just described to us, have you ever seen patients that come in or who want to be screened for an asbestos-related disease?
A. No, sir. Q. Have you ever diagnosed an asbestos-related di sease? A. Yes. Q. when was that? A. On consultation at the university of Michigan, I believe, a case -Q. And when was that, sir? A. Beg your pardon? Q. I'm sorry for interrupting you. when was that? A. Somewhere in the interval between '65 and '73. Q. All right. And when you were on consultation -- you were on consultation during that time? A. Exactly, sir. Q. How many people or patients do you recall
seeing for asbestos-related disease? A. There were relatively few. It was not
common. MR. CAPPOLINO: Object,
nonresponsive. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Did you see relatively
few people between 1965 to 1973 for asbestos-related di sease?
A. Yes, sir, that is clear. Q. what type of clinical procedures did you follow in attempting to diagnosis an asbestos-related disease in those people? A. We did a history, of course. That's very important -Q. Right. A. -- an occupational history particularly because we were doing this largely for teaching purposes, and we were trying to emphasize the very important nature of the occupational history, and that is, histories of exposures and understanding the
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt jobs because most physicians don't understand jobs in plants. So we were emphasizing history.
Of course, we did physical examination which didn't reveal that much, we would listen to the chest, of course, listen for altered breath sounds, we also would do x-ray, of course. And we would also do pulmonary function testing.
Q. Okay. Was part of your procedure in trying to diagnose an asbestos-related disease -- did part of your procedure actually involve going to the work site of the people to see what dosage of asbestos they were exposed to?
A. It happened once -- Q. And when was that? A. -- because we emphasized, again, to the students importance of understanding and knowing the job. And so that's not a very common thing among practicing physicians, but we were trying -- for teaching purposes, trying to make these points of emphasis, we did that once, yes, sir.
Well, no. I should say we did it several times because these were the students who were training to be occupational physicians. We'd go out on plant -- plant visits multiple times.
Q. Which plants did you goto? A. We went to General Motors plants, for one. we went to -- oh, boy. This is years ago. We went to automobile parts, major suppliers, producers. The issue of asbestos didn't come up too often there, but it did come up in connection with brake-linings. Q. Do you know if ALCOA had any brake-linings that contained asbestos from '73 through '86? A. Brake-linings. To the extent that everybody had -- everybody who owned an automobile had -- or could possibly have had brake-linings which contained asbestos, to that extent, yes; but, no, not to any greater extent. Q. Okay, when you went to these plants, did you, as a physician, go out there and measure asbestos exposure? What did you do? A. No. We would essentially try to make it clear that they had to ask the right questions of people in the plants as to what they're doing and what materials they're working with, and then go back to the purchasing organization and try to find out what the materials contained. That was part of the teaching role.
We didn't do measurements because we were not industrial hygienists. We were not training them to be industrial hygienists, we generally advised them of what had to be done, industrial hygiene part of the faculty, Dr. Cook and Professor Ralph Smith, taught them how to perform these measurements. But that's obviously industrial hygiene specialty --
Q. Right. A. -- rather than for physicians. Q. when you did this for teaching purposes, did you request any industrial hygiene people to do actual dust measurements at these plants that you
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visited? A. No. we couldn't do that because these were
plants which we were entering by leave of the employers; and to do measurements in there, no, that would not be appropriate.
Q. Okay. Prior to 1973, Dr. Dinman, did you ever have any professional relationship in any form or fashion with ALCOA?
A. No. Q. All right. Now, I want to go back a little bit from '73 to '86. We've talked a little bit earlier about what you were trying to do in the health department, in the medical department, to prevent disease, asbestos-related disease in ALCOA employees, and these are some of the things you mentioned:
Adequate measurements by the industrial hygiene people; correct, sir? Is that one of the --
A. That's important, yes.
Q. Working with the engineers to make sure there's adequate ventilation employed at the site?
A. Yes. Q. The medical exams that we talked about? A. Yes. Q. Obtaining a work history? A. Oh, absolutely. Q. Which is part of Exhibit No. 2? A. Uh-huh. Yes, sir. Q. were there any other measures that you, Bertram Dinman -A. Me? Q. -- yes, sir, felt needed to be implemented? A. Not that I did, but needed to be implemented by someone who was competent for that, yes. We always required pulmonary function testing. Q. were there any other measures that you -A. x-ray. Q. Okay. And we talked about the medical aspects as far as the medical exam -- A. Uh-huh. Q. -- but were there any other measures that either you or people you worked with, whether they be industrial hygiene people or engineering people at ALCOA, were there any other measures that were
taken -A. Yes. Q. -- at ALCOA from '73 to '86 to help prevent
excessive exposure to asbestos, that you recall? A. Yes. MR. COLBERT: Objection, form. MR. CAPPOLINO: Basis? MR. COLBERT: it's vague;
mischaracterizes his testimony; assumes facts not in evi dence.
But you can answer the question. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) You can answer it. A. well, there were other concerns which were general to prevention, and they were directed to asbestos as well as multiple other issues.
One of the things we tried to do is Page 30
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt work with purchasing to try to obviate the purchase or acquisition of materials which were potentially hazardous.
Q. Do you, Dr. Dinman -A. That's one of the things. Q. I'm sorry. Let me concentrate on that. A. Okay. Q. Do you recall any of the names of any of the manufacturers or suppliers of asbestos-containing
products that ALCOA purchased from, say, '73 through -- or that they purchased that you're aware of when you came on board?
A. No. That was -- that was mostly a purchasing function.
Q. All right. A. we would try to get to the purchasing people on understanding what we were looking for, what our concerns were. To that extent, we worked with them. Q. One of your goals was to, I guess, try to stop the purchase of asbestos-containing products by ALCOA? A. That was the hope.
MR. COLBERT: Objection, form. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) You can answer it. A. That was the expectation of what we were trying to do. Q. Was part of your role to emphasize the need for substitutes for asbestos? A. Where they could be found, yes; but we emphasized, as a general feature, any of the hazards, potentially-hazardous material. Q. Were you aware of any -- and again, I don't want to go outside your area of expertise, and if it
does, let me know. Were you aware of any substitutes for asbestos prior to 1973?
A. Well, you have to condition that question by asking whether there were adequate substitutes, and there was -- that was a contentious area, too.
For example, fiberglass was suggested as an adequate -- as a substitute, whether it was adequate or not was subject of contention, depending upon its use and ultimate application. I'm trying to remember, but I can't remember because this was a more technical area --
Q. Yeah. A. -- of what material specifically in addition to the fiberglass. Q. But did you ever become aware that fiberglass was substituted for asbestos in any materials used at ALCOA after 1973? A. Well, that's a very specific question which I really don't have expert knowledge on. Q. Okay. So we've talked about the purchasing and the other measures that you had a role in undertaking to prevent excessive exposure to asbestos, were there any other measures that you recall were taken? A. Let's see.
MR. COLBERT: Objection, form. Page 31
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt You can answer the question. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Go ahead, Doctor. A. Well, we're now working on the general principles of prevention. One of them is the substitution which we've been discussing. Q. Right. A. Other issues are engineering measures, and that -- that category is the ventilation issue. Other measures -- other measures that could be taken were prevention, and particularly we're talking about dust inhalation which then gets into the whole area of respiratory protection. Q. Okay. Do you know if respiratory protection was being used by the workers at ALCOA prior to 1973 at the Rockdale plant? A. Respiratory protection was used in a lot of jobs -Q. I'm talking about Rockdale. A. -- at Rockdale. I know, Rockdale, and just like other plants. Q. Do you recall or do you know whether or not ALCOA required its workers, prior to 1973, at Rockdale to use respiratory protection? A. I'm not too sure what they did before '73.
Q. When you came on board in 1973, Mr. Bonney had been there quite a number of years, hadn't he?
A. Yes, he had. Q. I think he testified yesterday he was employed by ALCOA in 1948. As far as what type of measures were taken by ALCOA prior to 1973, say, from '48 through '73 -A. Uh-huh. Q. -- to prevent excessive exposure to asbestos for its employees, would you rely on Mr. Bonney to give testimony to that effect, if he was there during that period of time?
MR. COLBERT: Objection, form. You can answer the question. A. what would I rely -- Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Do you think Mr. Bonney would know more than you would -- A. Oh. Q. -- about what occurred at ALCOA prior to 1973 -- and I'm talking about Rockdale -- prior to 1973, as far as what measures were taken or not taken with regard to employees' exposure to excessive amounts of asbestos? MR. COLBERT: Same objection. You can answer the question.
A. Now we're far away from that question. Could you restate it again?
Q. (By Mr.Cappolino) All right. Did you ever talk to Mr. Bonney about what measures were taken prior to 1973 to help prevent employee exposure to asbestos at ALCOA Rockdale?
A. ALCOA Rockdale? From the general -- from the general envelope of my responsibility, I would -- I'm only guessing that I had to have talked with him about multiple plants, yes, sir.
Q. I'm talking about -- A. -- because he would have knowledge,
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt obviously.
Q. Let me ask you this. Let me ask you some specific things.
A. Yes. Q. Did you ever talk to Mr. Bonney about whether or not, prior to the time you arrived at ALCOA, ALCOA did any sampling of its industrial dusts at Rockdale to determine levels of asbestos dust? A. I don't know that I specifically dealt with Rockdale or any other plant, specifically Rockdale. That's -- that's the question you asked. Q. And the reason I'm asking you that question, Dr. Dinman -- A. Yeah. Q. -- is that this litigation involves ALCOA Rockdale. Do you understand that? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Did you have any discussions that you recall with regard to any measures taken at ALCOA Rockdale, with Mr. Bonney, to prevent excessive exposure to asbestos when you arrived at ALCOA?
MR. COLBERT: Objection, form. You can answer the question. A. I would have to be speculating. I have to believe it because I depended upon Doctor -Mr. Bonney for expertise in this particular area. Now, whether we focused on Rockdale or not, that was 20-something years ago. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Let me just ask one questi on. A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know what programs were in place or measures were in place at ALCOA Rockdale when you arrived in 1973 to help prevent excessive exposure to asbestos of its employees? MR. COLBERT: Objection, form. A. if we're going to get very specific as far as Rockdale is concerned, that becomes difficult for me to say that we focused on that plant or any other plant, except one plant which was giving us trouble but had nothing to do with asbestos. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) I'm not asking you specifics, Dr. Dinman. Let me ask it one more time and I won't ask it again; okay? When you arrived in 1973 at ALCOA, do you have any knowledge of what measures ALCOA Rockdale took to prevent excessive exposure of asbestos to its employees at the ALCOA Rockdale pi ant? MR. COLBERT: objection, form. If you know, you can answer the question. THE WITNESS: I beg your pardon? MR. COLBERT: if you know, answer the question. A. Well, it gets very difficult for me to say that I know as directly related to your question. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) You don't know what measures were taken? A. I don't recall. This is some -- what is it, '73? We're 20 years --
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt Q. Prior to -A. -- 30 years ago.
Q. Prior to coming to today's deposition -A. Yes, sir. Q. -- did you ever request from Mr. Colbert for any documents, ALCOA documents, that are at his law office in Houston to see whether or not any measures were taken at ALCOA Rockdale prior to 1973 to prevent excessive exposure to asbestos to its workers?
MR. COLBERT: Objection, form. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Did you do that?
MR. COLBERT: Same objection. A. No. He didn't provide me, or I didn't ask for, that specific -- those specific types of informations. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Prior to today, you don't recall reading any documents which would give you any information as to what measures were taken at ALCOA Rockdale prior to 1973 -A. No. Q. -- to help prevent excessive exposure to asbestos of its employees?
MR. COLBERT: objection, form. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Is that correct?
MR. COLBERT: Same objection. A. No. I'm not aware of that.
Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) You said you visited ALCOA Rockdale?
A. Yes, sir. Q. When was that? A. Oh, multiple times. Q. Well, tell me, as best you recall, the approximate year or years when you first went down there? A. Oh, that's, as we say, some 30 years ago. I'm trying to remember what ALCOA Rockdale -- Q. It's in Texas. You know it's in Texas, don't you? A. I know it's in Milam County, too, sir. Q. Okay. A. But I -- I have difficulty with specific -- giving you specific dates. I went down there multiple times, as I say, in that period of time -Q. All right. A. -- but it was largely in relation to heat exposures there. Q. Okay. A. And Rockdale was very cooperative with us in helping us in getting those heat measures -- which took a lot of time, which took a lot of people away from the job, but those are -- those are the specific
reasons we went to Rockdale. There were general reasons, general surveillance, but that's the most I can say. We went there multiple times. Let's put it that way.
MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, nonresponsive.
Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Do you know how many times you went to Rockdale?
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt A. Ah, how many times? Q. Yeah. A. Going back to 1973? Q. Yeah. A. A specific number, I can't give you. I would say that it was somewhere between at least five and possibly less than ten. Q. All right. And that was between 1973 to 1986? A. As best I can remember. Q. And in those times between five and less than ten you say? Between five and ten approximately? A. Something like that. Q. Did you ever go down there to do any type of work with regard to asbestos exposure?
MR. COLBERT: Objection, form.
Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Did any of your work involve asbestos exposure when you went to ALCOA Rockdale between 1973 and 1986?
MR. COLBERT: Objection, form. MR. CAPPOLINO: Basis, Counsel? MR. COLBERT: Objection, form. Objection, side-bar. You needn't be argumentative with Dr. Dinman. MR. CAPPOLINO: I'm not being argumentative. I'm just trying to get an answer. MR. COLBERT: The question is vague. I believe Dr. Dinman is answering your questions to the best of his ability. MR. CAPPOLINO: I don't think he is. We'll move on. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) You went down there approximately between five and ten times? A. Certainly five, but I can't say ten, fi fteen. Q. One of the reasons you went down there was -- I think the major reason you said was because of heat problems? A. That was -- that was a major reason for a couple of the visits, right, because they worked with us in doing these heat studies down there, and they
were very cooperative. Q. Did any of the heat studies involve
asbestos? A. No, no. They didn't involve asbestos. Q. Between that five and ten times, did you
ever go down to the ALCOA Rockdale plant to discuss with anyone there the subject of asbestos?
A. If you put it that way, the subject of asbestos, that was not the primary reason we went there. We did go there and we did discuss asbestos incidentally to our general surveillance of the medical and protective functions going on there.
Q. What do you recall discussing about asbestos?
A. One of the things we discussed was the question of ventilation and protection, particularly in the marinite cutting operation because that's the one where if there was any potential for asbestos that was one which directly concerned us and was a
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matter of interest.
Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt
m r . c a p p o l i n o : Object, nonresponsive.
Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Who did you discuss with ALCOA Rockdale the marinite?
A. We discussed it with management and
industrial hygiene. Q. Do you recall the names of any of the
individuals you discussed it with? A. Well, no, I don't. Q. Did you discuss what measures should be
taken with regard to marinite to prevent excessive exposure to asbestos at the ALCOA Rockdale plant?
MR. COLBERT: Objection, form. You can answer the question. A. What measures should be taken? Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Yes, sir. A. Well, I'm not sure what you mean by that question. Q. Why did you discuss marinite? A. As a general subject for concern about overall exposures of everything at the plant, and asbestos was one of the subjects. Q. Well, one of the things as the medical person you were trying to do was to help prevent excessive exposure to asbestos at the ALCOA Rockdale plant; correct? A. Yes, sir. Q. And what things did you, Bertram Dinman, suggest to prevent excessive exposures to asbestos at the ALCOA Rockdale plant?
A. Major concern as regards asbestos was - - i s marinite cutting operation.
Q. How about potlining? A. Potlining? They appeared to be aware of the issues there, and to say that they fully implemented them or not, I don't know because I had to be there to do that. I did not -- yes, we did observe pot-digging. Q. Uh-huh. A. And again, the whole subject of asbestos and dust and carcinogens came up because of the coal tar pitch material. Q. Do you consider asbestos to be a carcinogen? A. under the proper conditions of exposure and duration and the other factors we've discussed. Q. Because I think you have written - - i n fact, you cited in one of your articles Richard Doll's article on asbestos and cancer, didn't you? A. I don't know that -- I don't know that I cited Sir Richard explicitly. If you could show that to me, I'd appreciate it.
MR. CAPPOLINO: Let's go ahead and mark it.
(Exhibit No. 3 marked.)
Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Dr. Dinman, I'm going to hand you what the reporter has marked as Exhibit No. 3, sir, and let you look at this.
A. Sure. Page 36
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt Q. Take your time, if you need to, to review it, and I can ask you some questions about it. A. Sure. Q- Okay. A. To identify this?
MR. COLBERT: Let's go off the record and let Dr. Dinman have a chance to review this article.
A. Well -Q. (By Mr. cappolino) That's an article you wrote; right? A. in 1959. Q. Do you havethat in your library now? Do you still have a copy of that article at your house? A. Oh, I'm nottoo sure.
MR. CAPPOLINO: Okay, we'll go off the record so he can have a chance to look at it.
THE WITNESS: Thank you. (Recess from 10:45 to 10:52.) Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Dr. Dinman, before the break, I wanted you to go ahead and review Exhibit No. 3. And can you identify what Exhibit No. 3 is, the document in front of you? A. It's an article I coauthored with one of our trainees and with Professor Ashe who was the head of the operation at Ohio State -- Q. Yes, sir? A. -- in the Ohio State Medical Journal, dated September 1959, and it is a general, overall review of occupational cancer. Q. Okay. From your review of that document, do you recall today being a coauthor of that document years ago? A. vaguely. Q. All right. Do you recall or do you know the reason why you coauthored this particular article, the purpose of this article? A. Because I was a young assistant professor there, and the way you got ahead in Academia is publish or perish. Q. That's correct. Now, in this particular article did you discuss asbestos exposure in any aspect? A. Yes. Q. And I believe -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- in that article -- I believe it's on Page 1217 -- you talked a little bit about the Lynch and Smith research or their peer-review article; did you not? A. where is this? Q. On Page 1217. A. 1217 is the front page. Q. Oh, I'm sorry, 1218. Excuse me, Doctor. That was an error. A. 1218. Q. You don't see it there? A. I'm sorry. Q- Let me see if I can help you out. A. Yeah. Q. Let me see if I can run that down for you, Doctor.
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt A. Yeah. Q. Okay. It's on Page 1218. It's in the first complete paragraph -A. All right. Q. -- on the left column. A. Okay. Let me see it. Third paragraph, the left column. Okay. Q. Do you see that, Doctor? A. No. I still don't see it, sir. Can you -- Q. Let me go ahead -- and I wish I had another copy here for you, but I don't. This is on the top left-hand -- can you see this here? can you read the words? A. (No audible answer.) Q. Let me start at the top -A. Yeah, go ahead. Q. Let me start at the top of the paragraph, put it in context.
"Still other industries began to be involved, chromates, for example, being suggested as cause of lung cancer by pfeil in 1911 and confirmed by Machle years later, while in 1932 Grenfell found lung and sinus cancer in certain nickel workers, and three years later" --
A. Right, right. Q. -- "Lynch and Smith reported a high incidence in asbestos workers." A. Okay. Q. Did I read that correctly? A. Yes, sir, you did. Q. So am I correct in saying that in "Occupational Cancer," which you coauthored in September 1959, you discussed Lynch and Smith reporting a high incidence in asbestos workers of lung cancer?
MR. COLBERT: objection, form. MR. CAPPOLINO: Basis? MR. COLBERT: Document speaks for itself. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Why don't you go ahead and read that column or that first paragraph? A. Yeah. Well, about Lynch and -Q. That's fine. A. we'll go right to it, Lynch and Smith. You're saying that they reported a high incidence in asbestos workers. Now, I must say that we're talking about other papers which found lung and sinus cancers in certain nickel workers, and three years later Lynch and Smith report a high incidence in asbestos workers. Well, I'm not sure why -- well, I want us to understand why I said this because I think what we're talking about -- yes. if you look at the paragraph, the previous page, there was a running-through of the history of reportage in the scientific literature of cancer associated with occupations. So in those - - i n the general sense, we're citing that as another example. That's all. Q. Yes, sir. A. Okay.
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt Q. And what you wrote in there, you did write in that article that Lynch and Smith reported a highest incidence of lung cancer in asbestos workers in 1935; correct? A. As a general statement, the cancers occur in occupational exposures. I included that one. That's about it. Q. Do you know the reason why you put that particular Lynch and Smith notation in there? A. For historical reasons, that's all. Q. I believe two sentences later, after you wrote that Lynch and Smith excerpt, you put, "the cancers whose origin has been attributed to occupation." Do you see that, I believe, on the second complete paragraph? A. Second complete paragraph.
No. I don't see it there. Can you show me where?
Q. Yes. Let me see if I can find that one, Doctor. I think it's there.
Oh, it's put in a different way, but it's on Page 1218, the first sentence of the second complete paragraph on the left-hand column, where it says, "These are by no means all of the cancers whose origin has been attributed to occupation"?
A. Okay. Q. Did I read that correctly? A. Yes, sir. uh-huh. Q. Also in this particular article that you co-wrote back in 1959 -- I believe that's on Page 1221 and 1222 of the article -- you cite the Doll study with regard to asbestos and cancer; is that correct? A. 1221. Asbestos. Yes -- Q. All right. A. -- in that last paragraph on the page. Q. You refer to Doll ana his 1955 article -A. Right. Q. -- Bonser, et al , in 1955, with regard to two pleural and four peritoneal cancers plus lung cancers among 72 asbestos cases seen at autopsy; is that correct? A. Yes. In these paragraphs I'm talking about asbestos in specific. Q. Yes, sir. A. The others -- other mention of asbestos was of an historical perspective. Q. And when you say "specific," when you're discussing it there, what do you mean by specific? A. well, I'm dwelling on the issue of
asbestos, in specific. The other one was a historical perspective of when these things popped up in the literature.
Q. And when you refer to Doll in that article, you talk about Doll's study linking cancer to asbestos; correct?
A. Doll's 1955 historical perspective, epidemiologic study associating exposure to asbestos with the occurrence of lung carcinoma in general.
Q. Was the Doll study one of the pieces of general literature that you reviewed to prepare you
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt for this deposition?
A. Reviewed specifically? Doll literature -- the Doll report of '55, I did not go back to the original paper, but I had summaries of it. And we also had continued reference to it in the literature because it was an important study.
Q. But you reviewed those general references prior to today's deposition to prepare you --
A. Yes. Q. -- for this deposition? A. Yes, sir. Q. Why did you do that, specifically, with regard to Doll's study? A. well --
MR. COLBERT: Listen to the question. THE WITNESS: Huh? MR. COLBERT: Let Mr. Cappolino ask his question before you start to answer. You're talking over each other right now. So just -- MR. CAPPOLINO: Well, object to side-bar. I'm not talking over Dr. Dinman. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Go ahead, Doctor. A. Well, because Sir Richard, who I personally know and had worked with, that study was one of the first historical perspective studies which focused on the subject of asbestos and asbestos workers and cancers. Q. Okay. A. And it is a very important study, it helped turn things around as far as our understanding of the relationship between asbestos exposure, as he described it, and the occurrence of lung cancer. Q. In your review of Dr. Doll's study and in your relationship and knowing Dr. Doll, was it your understanding that he linked asbestos exposure to lung cancer? A. Well, that's a general -- that's a general conclusion to come out of the study. It was a rather important one. Q. All right. Did you have any disagreement with his link between asbestos exposure and lung cancer after he wrote that article? A. No, I didn't, because he had a very clear situation as far as exposures were concerned. These were largely exposures in textile workers, that is, asbestos textiles where they took the fibers and then they weaved it into cloth. And these were very heavy exposures. So it was a good study insofar as the dose requirements are met, and it was well designed. so it was an important study. Q. I think you also write in your article -again, talking about your citation to sir Richard Doll, I think he put in there that the induction period appears to be very long and the tumor is highly malignant. Do you see that in your particular article? And it should be right by the section we just discussed. A. Well, why don't we read this specifically to see what they're saying about his study, it doesn't quite state it as you stated it, but --
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt
23
Q. Okay. Let's go ahead and read it.
24
A. Sure, okay.
25
Q- Let's see if we can find that.
0097
1
Okay. This is on Page 1221, the last
2 column -- I mean, it's the right column, last
3 paragraph, going to Page 1222, top of the page.
4
A. Right.
5
Q. Now let me just start where we talked about
6 Doll .
7
It says, "it has been shown
8 statistically in England, however, that there is a
9 high incidence of lung cancer in asbestos workers
10 known to be suffering from concurrent asbestosis.
11 Doll in 1955 noting in a study of men who had worked
12 20 years or more in the asbestos industry that the
13 incidence of lung carcinoma was ten times that
14 expected, while in the official statistics of the
15 Chief Inspector of Factories and Workshops in 1955,
16 22 percent of 222 men and 12 percent of 143 women
17 showed combined asbestosis and carcinoma. The
18 induction period appears to be very long and the
19 tumor is highly malignant."
20
Now, if you could look at that last
21 paragraph, I want to ask you if I read that
22 correctly.
23
A. Let me get to the last paragraph here,
24 "induction appears to be very long and the tumor is
25 highly malignant."
0098
1
All right. Now, it's important,
2 again, to note that he's talking about two
3 populations, and this is what we alluded to, first of
4 all, on dose. The two populations they were
5 concerned with were both -- I believe the asbestos
6 textile was quite clear. Another population that was
7 possibly involved, and probably even the Inspector of
8 Factories, were the men who were working in
9 shipbuilding and shipbreaking. And they were working
10 in confined spaces with poor ventilation and working
11 with very friable, easily broken-up asbestos.
12
I
think it's important that this is
13 the context of which these statements are made, that
14 these were really heavy exposures. Textiles are well
15 recognized, and the shipbreaking activities are well
16 recogni zed.
17
MR. CAPPOLINO: Object,
18 nonresponsive.
19
Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) The question I asked
20 you was, did I read that paragraph correctly?
21
A. You read the paragraph correctly, yes, sir.
22
Q. All right. Did you review any of the
23 articles that you wrote -- I think you said you
24 published approximately 150 articles. Did you read
25 any of the articles that you had published that were
0099
1 attached to any of the depositions that have been
2 taken in this particular litigation?
3
A. Did I read the articles which were what?
4
Q. Do you know Barry Castleman?
5
A. Oh, yes, I know Barry Castleman.
6
Q. How do you know Dr. Castleman?
7
A. I know him from his general reputation and
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt from things he's written in literature.
Q. All right. Do you have an opinion as to whether or not he has a good reputation in the field of asbestos with regard to state of the art?
A. As regard to asbestos, no, I have no opinion as regards asbestos specifically.
Q. All right. Did you reviewthe exhibits that were attached to his deposition which was taken a few months ago in this litigation where some of your articles were attached as exhibits?
A. No, I didn't. Q. All right. I want to ask you just a few more things, Dr. Dinman, about the duces tecum, we covered a couple of things.
The general literature and the texts you reviewed to prepare you for this deposition, I want to ask you about the texts that you reviewed prior to this deposition. What texts specifically
did you review? A. Oh, an old one, Hunter; and more recent
ones -- oh, gosh, what were the texts? Again, this treatise on asbestos and its development or knowledge on it by Enterline, and that was much more specific for asbestos rather than a general text.
Q. Any other texts you recall, other than Hunter and Enterline?
A. Well, Hunter -- Enterline was the treatise. The text was the Hunter.
Q. Do you know the name of the text from Hunter?
A. Oh, it's "Diseases of Occupation" or something of that sort.
Another one was the -- I'm having trouble remembering the specific names because I didn't depend upon them too much because they were too general. I would rather go to the more specific ones, such as the Enterline one, for example.
Q. Okay, so Enterline was more specific? A. About asbestos, about asbestos, yes, sir. Q. What did Enterline discuss specifically about asbestos that helped prepare you for this deposition? A. oh, boy. He went through -- he did this
treatise in which he was provided the world's literature in every language. He then worked with two graduate students at the School of Public Health. He got translations for all the articles. He had them reviewed, and reviewed them with these two students who have gone on now to be on the faculty at the School of Public Health, and one is a full professor.
And it was essentially an attempt to answer the question how the knowledge developedover the course of history. And I guess it sort of answered to the question that lawyers are always asking, when did you know or have reason to know? And he addressed it from the point of view of science, when did they know or have reason to know?
Q. Okay. A. This is a very useful and very specific review of the issue of development of scientific
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt knowledge regarding cancer and asbestos.
Q. Okay. Did Enterline cite the Doll study? A. Oh, yes, definitely. Q. Did Enterline cite any particular articles by Dr. Hueper? A. By who? Q. Dr. Hueper. Do you know Dr. Hueper?
A. Henry Hueper, yeah, sure, certainly do. Q. Did you have any professional relationship with Dr. Hueper? A. I was a young squirt then, and I didn't know him personally, but I knew from the literature and his involvement in whole area of carcinogenesis, yes, si r. Q. Yes, sir. And I'm sure Enterline cited Dr. Selikoff? A. Of course. Q. You know who Dr. selikoff was? A. Personally. Q. You were aware of this history of asbestos, scientific history of asbestos, as it relates to any asbestos-related disease -- you knew about this prior to coming on board with ALCOA in 1973, didn't you? A. I knew about what specifically, Enterline? Q. About the prior history of asbestos and any discussions in the scientific literature -A. Uh-huh. Q. -- about whether asbestos exposure caused di sease? A. Oh, yes. Q. Would you have any idea, from either your review of Enterline to prepare you for this
deposition or from your general knowledge, general background, about how many articles and texts were written about asbestos and its relationship to any type of asbestos-related disease prior to 1973?
A. Now, give me your predicatory part of that question again.
Q. You know what state of the art means? A. Okay, sure. Q. You know Dr. Castleman is published in the area o f state of the art? A. Yes. Q. Enterline is published in that? A. Yes. Q. Did Enterline discuss in the publication you read from him -A. Uh-huh. Q. -- how many articles or texts had been written on asbestos exposure and its relationship to di sease prior to 1973? A. Did I know it prior to 1973? Q. No, no. Did Enterline discuss how many arti cles or texts -- A. Ah. Q. -- had been published in that area prior to 1973?
A. Oh, yes. He went back to year one as far as we were aware of.
Q. Do you recall in your review of that page 43
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Enterline -- A. uh-huh.
Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt
Q. discussed disease?
A. Q. did you? A. Q. have it.
-- publication when day one was that asbestos and its relationship to any I'd certainly have to look it up. You didn't bring that book with you today, Yes, I did. You did? Okay. I'd like to see it if you
A. Specifically to answer your question, I can tell you a number of references he has.
Q. well, could I look at it first -A. Certainly. Q. -- just to see what you reviewed, sir , because I hadn't seen it until you pulled it out.
MR. COLBERT: Objection side-bar. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Let me just ask you a little bit about this book or this publication. It's called, Asbestos and Cancer, the First 30 Years by Philip E. Enterline, E-N-T-E-R-L-I-N-E, Ph.D.;
correct? A. uh-huh. Q. Do you know Dr. Enterline personally? A. Yes. Q. How do you know him? A. Oh, I've known him since 19 -- early '60s. Q. Have you ever worked with him in any
capacity? A. Yes. Q. In which capacity, sir? A. Well, he was the senior advisor to the
author or the director of the study we did in ALCOA on called "Coal Tar Pitch Volatile Exposures and Cancer." And he directed -- not directed -- he was the senior advisor for that study. And I've known him over the years as an authority in epidemiology and biostatistics, back -- starting in the 1960s actually.
Q. When you were -- I believe the publication date on this is 1978 --
A. uh-huh. Q. -- is that correct? A. Is that it? Sure. Q. Is that right? A. if you say so, I guess so.
Q. A. Q. 1978? A. Q. A.
Well, I saw on the bottom of your -- Yeah. -- thing you produced to me. Does it say '78, yes. Okay. There it is.
Q. You testified that you, of course, reviewed this prior to the deposition to help prepare you for this deposition?
A. Right. Q. Did you review this, ever refer to this or review this publication when you were at ALCOA from '73 to '86 --
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A. Q. A. Q. beli eve A. Q. A. Q. 1964 on A.
Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt (Witness nods head.) -- in any of your work at ALCOA? No. I didn't know of its existence then. And does Dr. Enterline in here discuss -- I he's got dates in here -Yes. -- talking about the literature? Yes. He talks about the literature, 1934 through asbestos; correct, pre-World War -- Well, not just that.
QA. Q. Page 1. A. 1934?
Q. A.
Okay. But asbestos is part of it? Asbestos is part of what? The literature of 1934 through 1964, He doesn't go -- he doesn't go earlier than Well, that's the first page I see. well --
Q. And tell me if I'm missing something. A. He may have alluded -- he may have alluded to othe " reports. 1934, 1933, yes. He's talking about 1 379 too. Q- Okay. But that's under the section of literature 1933 through 1964? A. Well, no. He says -- '34. He says pre-World War II, so I guess -- well, I'd still have to see specifically what he's saying is the earliest paper. Q. okay. A. Gloyne since '28. Okay. Well, so it looks like that the earliest dates he cites in here are 1933, Bert Wood and -- Wood and Gloyne. Q. Okay. Let me just ask you generally, does Dr. Enterline discuss any link between asbestos exposure and cancer in this publication?
A. Between asbestos exposure and cancer, certainly does. That's the subject of this.
Q. Does he believe there is a link between the two, from your review of his publication?
A. As a generalization, as a generalization subject to the considerations of dose, time of exposure, etc.
Q. And I think you said he did cite Doll in 1959 --
A. Yes, sir. Q. -- discussing that link? A. in -Q- '55? A. '55, yeah. Q. And did he also discuss other literature that came later on linking cancer and asbestos exposure, after Dr. Doll? A. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. He goes up to '65, '65. Let s look in the body of -- okay. So it looks like he lists all the publications and describes them as to their source, going from -- let's go specifically here -- going from, yeah, 1934. Q. Okay. A. This is his table here. Q. Yeah. He's got a table in there showing --
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt
A. Right -Q. -- particular articles? A. -- what the articles were and the dates and who published them, yes, sir. Q. He also discusses the link between asbestos and asbestosis, the literature that talks about that; correct? A. The link, yes. Q. He also talks about the link between asbestos exposure and mesothelioma? A. Yes, the link. Q. Does he discuss pleural plaques in here? A. Oh, I'm not too sure about pleural plaques. I'm sure -- I suspect he does. I'd have to specifically look for that. Q. So you were obviously aware when you came on with ALCOA that asbestos exposure could cause lung cancer and other cancers; correct? A. I was aware that the exposure to asbestos had the potential of producing asbestosis, lung cancer and mesothelioma, yes, sir. Q. Okay. And part of your role from '73 to '86 was to help prevent that from occurring in ALCOA employees? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Today, do you know whether or not any ALCOA
employees at the Rockdale plant ever were diagnosed
with asbestosis?
A. Any knowledge?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. I assume that diagnosis was made. On what
basis, I'm not aware of, the causes of action.
Q. All right. Were you aware of any cases of
lung cancer being --
A. No --
Q. Let me finish, were you aware of any cases
of lung cancer being diagnosed in ALCOA workers from
1973 through 1986 when you were there?
A. No. I was not aware of that.
Q. Did you ever check to see if any
individuals were diagnosed with lung cancer during
that period of time at ALCOA Rockdale when you were
there between '73 and '86?
A. Well, first of all, I was not at ALCOA
Rockdale.
Q. I'm sorry?
A. I was not at
ALCOA Rockdale.
Q. i know that. I'm asking you if you ever
became aware of whether or not any employees at ALCOA
Rockdale, through documents, conversations, any other
source, had been diagnosed with lung cancer during that period of time when you were still at ALCOA?
A. I can't recall specifically. Q. All right. Were you ever aware of whether or not any employees were diagnosed with asbestosis between 1973 and 1986 at ALCOA Rockdale when you were at ALCOA? A. I can't specifically recall that, no. Q. was part of your role to try to determine whether or not any employees --
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22
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt A. Uh-huh. Q. -- had contracted either one of those di seases? A. Yes, sir. Q. How would you find out if they did or didn't? A. From death certificates. And I would presume, but I -- we never saw asbestosis cases there during my period of time, of asbestosis. That's the condition of the -- the malignant condition. Q. You know what a latency period is -- A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know what the latency period is for developing asbestosis in an individual, taking into account individual susceptibility?
A. And other factors. Q. And other factors. A. well, the other factors, of course, again, dose. Q. Right. Do you know what the latency period is -- A. Latency period is long -Q. What is it? A. -- cited anywhere from 20 to 30 years, depending upon dose, as a matter of fact. Q. How about lung cancer, the latency period? A. We were talking about mesothelioma before? Q. No. We were talking about asbestosis. A. Oh, asbestosis. Yeah, same question -- same answer would apply. And the same answer would apply to lung cancer. Mesothelioma seems to be longer. Q. okay, what is mesothelioma as far as the latency period that you know of? what is the latency peri od? A. It's in the general area of asbestosis -- I mean, rather, of lung cancer, but it tends to be -as you look at the distribution reported over time, tends to be longer. That's a generalization. You can't assign a specific number to that.
Q. All right. And you, of course, were aware when you came on board at ALCOA of these latency periods?
A. Of latency periods, yes, sir. Q. Do you know when the ALCOA Rockdale plant started? When it was constructed and when operation began? A. No, I don't know. Q. Dr. Dinman, what I'd like to do -- and we can do this later -- I wanted to make a copy of this particular Enterline book and have it attached as the next exhibit and give you back the original; is that okay? A. lust so I get the original back. Q. You bet. A. There's very few of them around.
MR. CAPPOLINO: So we'll go ahead and have this marked -- I don't know what the next exhibit is.
THE REPORTER: 5. MR. CAPPOLINO: 5?
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) i'll have this publication, "Asbestos and Cancer," marked as Exhibit 5, a copy of it attached to the deposition and give the original back to you; is that okay?
A. I appreciate that, yes. Q. That's fine.
(Exhibit Nos. 4-5 marked.) Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Other than this "Asbestos and Cancer" book, did you bring any other literature with you that you reviewed to prepare you for this deposition -- A. No. Q. -- with you today? A. I -- going back to the textbooks I reviewed as we've been talking, I recall I've used Rom, for )ne. Q. I'm sorry, Rom? A. Rom. Q- How do you spell that? A. R-O-M. Q. And that's a textbook? A. That is a textbook. It's a general textbook }f occupational diseases. Q. Dr. Dinman, do you know the name of that parti cul, r text? A. Well, I don't know the name specifically. It's edi 2d by Dr. william Rom of New York. Q. And if you recall, what was the publication date, if
A. Well, it's gone through several revisions. I have, I think, the second edition. I think there's a third edition now.
Q. One of the other experts that ALCOA has retained in this case, I just want to ask you if you know of him or know who he is. His name is Dr. Gary Friedman. Do you know who Dr. Friedman is? Have you ever heard of him?
A Gary Friedman. Q Yeah. A No, I haven't, no. I'm not quite sure who he is, no. Q Okay. A Is he in Connecticut? Q No, he's in Texas, down in Houston. A Weil, I don't know him. Sorry. Q Okay. I wanted to ask you, i" think another document you provided today is you've provided your Curriculum vitae, haven't you? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you have a copy of that with you?
MR. CAPPOLINO: I want to go ahead and get that marked as attached as Exhibit 6.
(Exhibit No. 6 marked.) Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Dr. Dinman, I'm going
to hand you what has been marked by the reporter as Exhibit No. 6, sir, and ask if you can identify what that is?
A. Yes, sir. Q. And one of the things I'd asked for in the duces tecum, though you didn't get a chance to see
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt the duces tecum, was No. 2, a copy of your Curriculum Vitae, is that exhibit a true and correct copy of your Curriculum vitae?
MR. COLBERT: Object to side-bar. can answer the question.
Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) You can answer it. A. Well, I have to look carefully because continue to revise them. Q. Yes, sir.
You I
A. It looks like it is an up-to-date, revised one, yes, sir. It's dated May 2002, which is not exactly up to date, but not much -- not that much has happened since then.
Q. Yes, sir. Are you still currently employed in any capacity? Are you still employed?
A. No, no. I retired from University of -- University of Pittsburgh.
Q. And when was that,sir? A. July of this year.
Q. July of 2003? A. Correct. Q. I don't know if that one reflects that, but it should. A. That's interesting. Has to be in here. Okay. Yes. This is wrong though. Professional experience, 1987-'02, University of Pittsburgh Graduate School of Public Health, clinical professor etc., that should be '03. It's just -- that is -- this is not up to date.
Huh. Says revised 8-2003, and that's not true. That should be -- that thing got by me.
Q. Okay. When was the last time you published an article?
A. Oh, boy. Let's see. That's not easy. The last time I published, yes, was in 2001. It was a chapter in what used to -- yeah, Patty's Toxicology.
Q. what was that? Is that article listed in there?
A. Yes, sir. Q. All right. Let me just -A. It's listed under Textbooks and -Q. Oh, okay. All right. A. Do you see that there? Q. Yes, sir. Thanks.
A. Sure. Q. Did you publish any articles with regard to asbestos exposure when you were working with ALCOA? A. Not that I remember. It was not a big subject as far as problems we had there.
MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, nonresponsive.
A. Okay. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Let me ask you again. Did you publish any articles in the area of asbestos exposure when you worked with ALCOA from 1973 through 1986? A. I would have to review this again, but I don't think so. I still should review it again, I think. Q. Feel free to, Doctor. A. Huh?
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt Q. Go ahead.
MR. COLBERT: if we could, while he's reviewing that, let's just take a short break.
(Recess from 11:29 to 11:36.) Q. (By Mr. cappolino) Dr. Dinman, before we took a break, I think you wanted an opportunity to go through your Curriculum vitae. Did you have a chance to go through it?
A. Line by line, no, but I'll sure check -- Q. Because it's several pages long? A. Yes, sir. Q. And, of course, it lists your training, your honors, your experience, your publications? A. Yes, sir. Q. Activities you were involved in? A. Yes, sir. Q. I was looking through your C.V. Have you ever put in your C.V. any of the presentations you may have given in the area of occupational medicine or preventative medicine? A. That would be under the category of "invited Papers." Q. "Invited Papers"? A. Yes, on Page 4 of the list of publications. Q. Oh, okay. A. And those were presentations at various meetings etc. Q. Okay. Let me just turn to that real quickly here. And when you say "invited Papers and Presentations," do you either author or coauthor a paper on a particular subject and then present it to a group? A. Yes, sir, that's correct.
Q. And that's what this would be talking about, and it lists that. And you've got, oh, gosh, let's see, 23 presentations?
A. Correct. Yes, sir. Q. Did any of these presentations that you gave to any group involve asbestos exposure and asbestos-related diseases and employees at the ALCOA pi ant? A. I don't believe so. I can look through these, but I -- let me just see. At the ALCOA plant no, specifically. Q. Let me ask generally, do any of these presentations to a group, "Invited Papers," involve any presentation on asbestos exposure and asbestos-related disease? A. Not primarily, but I want to look through these -- Q. That's fine. A. -- to be sure that -Q. You can look through your C.V. Sure, go ahead. A. No. 14, I don't know if you can use that one. That happens to be in German, but -Q. Did you write that in English and then it was translated into German for --
A. Yes. I gave it in Nordstrum, was translated in German for this symposium publication.
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt Q. Can you tell whether or not that involved any discussion of asbestos and asbestos-related disease, that No, 14? A. if it did, it was just, again, covering the whole spectrum of occupational disease, it may have been mentioned. That's about it. Q. Okay. A. Let's see what else we have here.
Okay, yeah, 9. That went to the Foundrymen's Society, and one of the problems in foundries, potentially, is asbestos exposure. So it may have been mentioned there, yes.
Q. That's called, "The Physiological and Psychological Results of Environmental Stress in Foundry Operations"?
A. Right. Q. Do you think maybe asbestos was discussed in that presentation? A. Possibly. But again, as one of the multiple potential exposures in that particular industry. Q. Was this particular invited paper published in any peer-review journal?
A. What's that, No. 9? Q. Yes, sir. A. Probably -- probably not. That's why we've listed all these differently from the -- separately from the papers that were in the peer-review journals. Q. Do you still have a copy in your possession of No. 9? A. Oh, I doubt that. We didn't put much weight upon papers that were invited because they're not peer reviewed. Q. Any other of these invited presentations you think may have involved asbestos and asbestos exposure? A. May have involved? May have been mentioned? Q. In part, yes. A. May have, in part. Well, let's see what we've got here now.
"The Respiratory Condition of Potroom Workers," I think we were concerned mostly there with the question of asthma.
Q. That's No. 17? A. That's No. 17. Q. And that's called -- that's one that you
authored just yourself, and it's called, "Respiratory Condition of Potroom Workers" --
A. Yes. Q. -- "Surveyof i p a i Companies Preliminary Report"? A. Preliminary report. That was a preliminary report on a survey we did of -- international survey of aluminum workers which was done through the International Primary Aluminum Institute. Q. Okay. And that was -- A. But that was with an asthma issue. Q. All right. I'm sorry forinterrupting you, Dr. Dinman.
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt A. That's all right. Q. And that was written or -- was that written in 1977? A. Let's see here. Yes. Q. And that's four years after you joined ALCOA? A. Right, right. Q. It also says, "Health Protection in Primary Aluminum Production," doesn't it? A. That's the name of the volume. Q. Do you recall whether or not there was any discussion in that invited presentation or paper
about asbestos exposure of aluminum workers? A. I'd have to review that paper. Q. Do you have a copy of that paper with
you or -A. Not with me, no. Q. -- in your possession? A. Not with me, no. Q. I'm sorry? A. Not with me, no. Q. Do you have it at your house? A. Could be. Could be. Q. Could you make a copy of that and provide
that to me through Mr. Colbert? A. I presume so, yes, sir. MR. CAPPOLINO: Is that okay with you,
Kevi n , if he has it? MR. COLBERT: I'd be more than happy
to do that. THE WITNESS: Let me make a note of
that. That is No. 17? MR. CAPPOLINO: Yes, sir.
A. There's not going to be much in there on asbestos because -- oh, health protection will be mentioned, yes, and other papers contributed by other participants. That could be, okay. Again, it will
be listed as a potential. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) But it wouldn't be a
primary part of that paper? A. No. Q. Why wouldn't it be? A. Because we have a whole range of health
problems, or potential health problems, in the aluminum industry which are much more serious and much more exposure, meaning much more potential.
Q. Which problems would that be, Doctor? A. oh, gosh. The major ones were fluorosis, and that is a constant one when aluminum is reduced and smelted.
Another one, of course, with aluminum smelter is heat. Temperatures are high, workers are exposed to high temperatures, and so we're concerned about their physiological and cardiological status.
Another one is, potentially, dusts. We're very fortunate in that our dusts are mostly inert dusts like aluminum oxide, which are very high -- common exposures, I should say; but they're apparently inert. We did studies to attempt to define that.
We also have problems of, now, Page 52
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt micro -- not microwave, non-radiating, nonionizing
radiation, that is, the microwave and that sort of thi ng.
we had -- though I'm not too sure it's a problem, but we were concerned about it -- we have problems of, let's see, fluorosis; c.O., not that much; heat; dusts. Those are the major problems, and they are always of concern because of the potential exposure is high on all of them.
Q. Do you know if any of those potential problems with the substances you talked about can be measured?
A. Oh, yes. Q. In other words, dosage? A. Yes, sir. Q. Generally, how is that done, let's say, on fluoride? A. Fluoride. Usually, a -- let me get this straight now because what's happened is the measurement of exposures over the years have been changing continuously. The most modern approach is to put a midget sampler on the worker so it's right near the breathing zone. And we can -- running off a battery, we can run this for eight hours. So that gives you immediate exposure in the breathing zone. That's the most useful way of measuring exposure to a
man. The others are used as general area
sampling, but they're not as good as following the man. You have to follow the man around with a sample; whereas, when you have the midget samplers, you hook it on the man and he just wears it all the eight hours of his shift.
So those are some of the methods we have.
Q. Do you know, Dr. Dinman, if these midget samplers were used at ALCOA Rockdale to determine levels of fluoride prior to 1973?
A. Prior to '73? Well, prior to '73, this is about the time these developed. And so you had to depend upon, largely, area sampling, and then attempt to visit the man's exposures during the course of the day as best you could. But I remember about that time that these personal samplers, as they were called, were developing and becoming generally avai1able.
Q. Let me ask you this. Do you know if prior to 1973 at ALCOA Rockdale area sampling was instituted to determine levels of fluoride?
A. Do I know? well, I have to presume that; but again, to talk about what happened prior to my
coming there is a little difficult to be accurate. Q. Did you consider asbestos exposure to be a
low priority at ALCOA from 1973 through 1986? MR. COLBERT: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: Can I answer it? MR. COLBERT: Yes, you can answer it.
Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Yes. A. When you say low priority, I'm not quite sure what you mean by that.
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt Q. Well, Mr. Bonney testified that he considered asbestos to be a low priority at ALCOA when he was there prior to 1973. Do you agree or disagree with his -A. Do I agree? Q. -- testimony?
MR. COLBERT: Objection, form. A. Do I agree or disagree? Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Yes. A. well, I wouldn't quite put it that way. Q. How would you put it? A. I would say that among the multiple workplace exposures that we had at ALCOA during the time I was there -- certainly, I can speak to that most directly -- that of all the exposures we had, this was not one of the more serious ones in term of the intensity of the exposure. Q. Okay. A. There were others which were much more intense, much more dosage. Q. Well, isn't it true that you have to do measurements, such as area sampling or personal sampling, midget impingement method, to determine levels of asbestos dusts in the area? isn't that true? A. we have to do it. Q. All right. A. Among the other things, we do, yes. Q. You nave to do that to determine how much asbestos is in the air -A. Yes, yes. Q. -- around the workers; correct? Is that correct? A. That's correct. Yes, sir. Q. And, of course, if that's not done, then you have no facts to help you determine what level, what threshold levels of asbestos dusts are in the air; correct?
MR. COLBERT: Object to form. You can answer. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) is that correct? MR. COLBERT: Same objection. A. well, I can't answer it yes or not. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Well, you have to measure asbestos exposure in a certain way, don't you, through air sampling? A. Yes. Yes, you do it through air sampling primarily, yes. Q. And if it's not done, then does the company know how much asbestos dust is in the air? A. If it's not done at all? Q. Yes, sir. A. Oh, there's no way -- well, you can generally observe, but you can't come up with a number, can you? Q. No. You don't know whether or not ALCOA, prior to 1973, did any sampling for asbestos? A. From their general performance, after I got there, it's hard for me to believe they didn't, but I don't know.
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, nonresponsive. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) The question I asked you is, you don't know prior to 1973 whether ALCOA at Rockdale did any sampling for asbestos? A. Of my personal knowledge?
Q. Yes, sir. A. No, I don't know that. Q. And if they didn't do any sampling for asbestos in the air prior to 1973, then there's no way to determine how much asbestos was in the air?
MR. COLBERT: Objection, form. You can answer it.
Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) is that correct? Now, you're saying that if I -- if -- you
stated if I don't know -- will you restate that questio I want to be very clear about answering it.
Q. All right. If ALCOA Rockdale didn't do -- A. Yes. Q. -- any air sampling for asbestos -A. Right. Q- -- prior to 1973, if that happened -A. Yes. Q. -- then there's no way for them to determi ne how much of a dose or how much asbestos was i n the ai r?
MR. COLBERT: Objection, form. But you can answer the question. A. Well, you said "if." Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Yes, sir.
A. That's -Q. That's a hypothetical. A. Sure, I understand. If they did not -- little hard for me to believe, but if they did not, presuming that, then you would have no way of having an exact measurement of how much asbestos was in the air. You could generally estimate it, but that's the best you would be able to do. Q. How would you generally estimate how much asbestos wiould be in the air if you do not do air sampi ing? A. If you look at the dusts deposit -- not deposit --- floating in the air. Q- Do you know what the National Safety Council is? A. Yes. Q. What is the National Safety Council? A. I beg your pardon? Q. what is the National Safety Council? A. Well, they're an organization which attempts to describe what a safe practice is and what an unsafe practice is. They're not very strong, however, in industrial hygiene.
MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, nonresponsive. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) You know who the
National A. Q.
is? A.
I know the -Do you know who the National Safety Council
In general
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt Q. who is the National Safety Council? A. They're a heterogeneous group of people who are safety experts, supposedly, and they also purport to get into the industrial hygiene area and, essentially, try to set standards. But I don't put much credence upon their capabilities in this area. I would rather depend upon the AIHA or American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists. So I really don't give them much credence as far as the standards they set.
MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, nonresponsive. Can you, please, mark this?
(Exhibit No. 7 marked.) Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Dr. Dinman, have you ever read any of the National safety News put out by the National Safety Council? A. Oh, I may have from time to time. Q. Okay. I'm going to hand you what the reporter has marked as Exhibit No. 7, which I represent to you -- and, certainly, you can have a
chance to look at it -- is a publication for the National Safety News, September 1935, put out by the National Safety Council?
A. Oh, boy. '35? Q. Yeah. A. Okay. Q. Have you ever seen that publication before? A. That's not one of the primary things I read. I guess I've seen it, but --
MR. COLBERT: Take your time and look at the whole document?
A. Yes. Let me look at this. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Sure. Take your time. A. Dust control, okay.
Yeah. I see this article in here by Arthur S. Johnson, "No Halfway of Measures in Dust Control." I don't know who Arthur S. Johnson is, but I see that he is "Assistant to the Manager, Engineering Department, American Mutual Liability Insurance Company."
Quite frankly, he's not a name I've ever seen before, nor do I recognize him as a writing authoritatively on issues of occupational health.
MR. c a p p o l i n o : object, nonresponsive.
Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) I want to ask you about one part of that exhibit. Have you had a chance to look through the -- do you want to read the whole thing?
A. The whole thing? Q. I mean, I don't know if Mr. Colbert wants to you or not. Do you need to read the whole arti cle?
MR. COLBERT: Objection, side-bar. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) I want to ask you about one specific part of that article, if we could, before we begin again tomorrow, if you don't mind. Let me see if I can point that out to you, Dr. Dinman. A. (witness points.) Q. No, that's not the part.
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A. QA. Q. A.
Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt Okay. This is on Page 18 of this I'm going to kind of show you where I'm lout so you can see it. It's kind of hard It's not real clear, but -- Yeah, "if you can see the dust" -Do you see that? Yeah. "If you can see the dust" -- Now -- Oh, Lord.
Q- Let me just ask you a question about it. You appeared to have some consternation about that, but let me ask you a question.
A. Yeah. Q. We had a blowup made, and I think we showed it during Dr. Castleman's deposition. I think this is a blowup of what's in that particular National Safety News. And on that page where I just pointed to you, it says, "if you can see the dust, you know it to be a terrific hazard."
Did I read that correctly from that? MR. COLBERT: Objection, form. Objection, side-bar. You can answer the question. A. You read it -Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Let me just ask you, for the record, on that page that you're looking at, do you see a section there that says, "if you can see the dust, you know it to be a terrific hazard"? A. Yes sir, it says -Q. Did I read that correctly? A. You read it correctly, yes, sir. Q. And I'm showing you a blowup here that was made of that to maybe see it a little clearer. Is that what this blowup says?
A. Yes, sir. Q. And do you agree or disagree that if you can see the dust, it's a terrific hazard? A. I can't agree with the statement because it's a pretty loose statement, and it's obviously directed to a general lay audience. I wouldn't say that in a professional journal I would expect to see this type of statement. Q. So you've never seen that in any professional journals, that type of statement? A. You wouldn't see this type of statement in a professional journal. Q. The question I'm asking you is, have you ever seen that kind of statement in any professional journal?
A. Q. ever had workers, prior to
A. know.
Q. A.
Not put so, no. Do you know whether or not ALCOA Rockdale any visible dusts in the air around its working around asbestos-containing products, 1973 at ALCOA Rockdale?
MR. COLBERT: Objection, form. Well, again, prior to 1973, I wouldn't (By Mr. Cappolino) Okay. I certainly would know afterwards.
Q- When you went down there on these between Page 57
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Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt five to ten occasions between '73 and '86, did you actually go into the plant area --
A. Yes. Q. -- around the marinite, around the potlining operations -- A. Absolutely. Q. -- to see whether or not there was any visible dust in the area when these operations were taking place? A. To look for many things, including dust in the air, that was part of my responsibility. Q. Yes, sir. Did you see dust in the air? A. Oh, I saw dust on the potlines, but this was largely aluminum oxide dust. Q. Now, do they do measurements to determine whether or not it was aluminum oxide? A. During my tenure, yes. Q. Do you know whether or not ALCOA Rockdale, prior to the time you first went down there, did any measurements of that dust you saw during that time to see if it had any asbestos in it? A. Particularly in the marinite areas, yes, they did measurements. Q. Prior to 1973?
A. Well, again, we're speaking to what was occurring before I got there.
Q. Yes, sir. That's the question I asked. Do you know whether or not they did any measurements prior to 1973 to see if there was any level of asbestos in the dust in those working areas?
A. To my personal knowledge, I don't know whether they did or did not.
Q. I want to ask you about one more document today. Do you know a person at ALCOA Rockdale named -- or, I'm sorry, the Pittsburgh office named Patrick Atkins?
A. Oh, yes. Q. Who was Patrick Atkins? A. Patrick Atkins was the general manager for envi ronmental affai rs. Q. what were his duties, if you know? A. He was largely concerned with the general outside-the-plant environment. As a matter of fact, it was totally outside-the-pl ant environment that his responsibilities covered. Q. What do you mean outside-the-plant envi ronment? A. Beyond the fence line. Q. Beyond the fence line of what?
A. Of the plants, all the plants, all the operations.
Q. And that would include ALCOA Rockdale? A. That certainly would. Q. Were you hired in 1973 prior to May 16th of '73? A. Was I hired what? Q. Do you know the month you were hired at ALCOA in 1973? A. i think I came on, on July 1. Q. Okay. I'm going to hand you another document that was marked as an exhibit. We skipped
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A. Ah, E.P.A . ...marinite...potlining. well, this is another instance of
where Pat Atkins is -MR. COLBERT: Dr. Dinman, there's no
question pending. THE WITNESS: Beg your pardon? MR. COLBERT: There's no question
pending. Let Mr. Cappolino ask you -Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Do you want to look
some more at that document? You're looking at the
fi rst page? A. Dust looking at the cover page. That's
all, sir. Q. Okay. A. This goes on and on. MR. CAPPOLINO: Are we going to 12:00
o'clock today? MR. COLBERT: Yes, and it's a little
after 12:00. MR. CAPPOLINO: Oh, well, excuse me.
Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Let me just go ahead and ask you just a couple things. I tell you what we'll do. I can leave that, and you can have a chance to look at that before tomorrow --
A. Good, good. Q. -- and then I can ask you some questions so you'll have an opportunity; is that fair? A. Certainly. Q. Let me just ask you about the duces tecum. We had eight or nine separate documents requests that we made for you to produce, if you had them, today. Let me just ask you if you have any documents responsive to these.
"Copies of all documents that reflect ALCOA's knowledge that asbestos could have negative
effects on health that were produced prior to 1980," do you have any documents responsive to that questi on?
A. I really -- it's highly improbable without going through my files. The files are pretty minimal now. it's highly improbable that I have any documents from ALCOA. The one I brought here, as a matter of fact, the physical examination, surveillance examination, is about the only thing I brought because those files were not mine at ALCOA.
Q. What files are you talking about? A. My personal files at the office. Q. Do you know whether or not any of your personal files in your office contained any documents with regard to ALCOA? A. Oh, they were all ALCOA. Q. But you didn't produce any of those today in response to this duces tecum? A. well, I didn't know what was in that duces tecum. Q. Because you didn't see it?
MR. COLBERT: Objection, form. Dr. Dinman, we discussed these topics
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1 2 3 4 5
6
7 8
Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt on the duces tecum. Listen to the question that Mr. Cappolino is asking you with respect to the duces
tecum. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) You and Mr. Colbert_
discussed the documents that were requested in this duces tecum?
A. Not that I recall directly. Q. What did you discuss? A. Discussed what my experiences were at ALCOA when I was there, largely, and what -- my C.V. and what I did -- what I 've done since and what I did before. But as far as documents that I own, is that responsive -- are we talking about that? Q. This notice of deposition with the duces tecum was filed at the courthouse in Milam County, a copy sent to Mr. Colbert to provide to you, listing nine separate categories of documents requested of you if you had them in your actual or constructive possession. Do you understand that?
MR. COLBERT: Objection, form. Objection, side-bar.
You can answer the question. Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) was it your testimony that you have not seen this duces tecum prior to the time I asked you about it today? A. I don't recall it, no. Q. But you discussed the documents that I
requested with Mr. Colbert that are on this duces tecum?
A. without being too sure -- well, I don't think I ever saw that. So I'm not too sure of what documents are in there, obviously.
Q. I understand you hadn't seen this, but did you discuss with Mr. Colbert the documents that we requested in this duces tecum?
A. I'd have to look at the document again. Q. I tell what you, Doctor. Just so we can finish today, I'm going to ask you if you could look at 1 through 9, the requests there, read through them and then tell me whether or not you have any documents in your files responsive to any of those 9 requests. A. Certainly. Q. is that fai r? A. Fair enough. Q. okay. A. No. 1, no. Q. Okay. A. No. 2, yes. That's the C.V. Q. Yes, sir. A. No. 3, no. No. 4, certainly not. No. 5, again, certainly not. No. 6, certainly not. No. 7,
no. No. 8, no. No. 9, no. Q. Okay. A. Again, because these were the company
records, and I didn't take them with me, except in this one case where it could be used for a teaching -- for teaching use.
Q. Again, that was which document? A. That's the --
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EXHIBIT 132
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22
23 24 25 0146
1
2
3 4 5
6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22
23 24 25 0147
1
2
3 4 5 6 7
8 9 10 11
12 13
14
Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt Q. The questionnaire? A, Yeah, the questionnaire, sure.
MR. CAPPOLINO: Dr. Dinman, I'm going to go ahead and continue my questioning with you tomorrow because we're doing your deposition between 9:00 and 12:00, and we've gone a little over. But I appreciate it, and we'll be back with you tomorrow and I'll continue my questioning. Thank you.
(Deposition in recess at 12:07 p.m.)
PAGE
LINE
CHANGES AND SIGNATURE
CHANGE
REASON
I, Be r t r a m D. d i n m a n , m .d ., have read the foregoing deposition and hereby affix my signature that same is true and correct, except as noted above.
BERTRAM D. DINMAN, M.D.
THE STATE OF ______________ ) COUNTY OF ______________ )
Before me, ________________ , on this day personally appeared BERTRAM D. DINMAN, M.D., known to me (or proved to me under oath or through
) (description of identity card or Page 61
EXHIBIT 132
15
16
17
18 19 20 21 22
23 24 25 0148
1 2 3 4c 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0149 1 2 3 4 q 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt other document) to be the person whose name is subscribed to the foregoing instrument and acknowledged to me that they executed the same for the purposes and consideration therein expressed.
Given under my hand and seal of office this ______ day of __________________ , 2003.
NOTARY PUBLIC IN AND FOR THE STATE OF
My Commission Expires:
CAUSE NO. 26,496
ANTONIO FLORES, et al
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
VS.
) MILAM COUNTY TEXAS
ABLE SUPPLY COMPANY, et al ) 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
CAUSE NO. 26,342
DOROTHY A. LEHMANN, et al ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
VS.
) MILAM COUNTY TEXAS
ABLE SUPPLY COMPANY, et al ) 20t h j u d i c i a l d i s t r i c t
CAUSE NO. 26,469
DAVID 0. MUSTON, et al
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
VS.
) MILAM COUNTY TEXAS
ABLE SUPPLY COMPANY, et al ) 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
CAUSE NO. 26,928
MARIA ALVARADO, et al
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
VS.
) MILAM COUNTY TEXAS
ABLE SUPPLY COMPANY, et al ) 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
CAUSE NO. 28,118
GEORGE R. YOAKUM, et al ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
VS.
) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS
ACandS, INC., et al
) 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
CAUSE NO. 27,629
VICTOR KOCIAN, et al
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
VS.
) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS
ACandS, INC., et al
) 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
CAUSE NO. 28,365
TERRY CORBIN, et al
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
VS.
) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS
ALCOA, INC., et al
) 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
CAUSE NO. 28,472
LADELLA CAFFEY, et al
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
VS.
) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS
AMETEK, INC., et al
) 20TH j u d i c i a l d i s t r i c t
CAUSE NO. 28,473
NANCY FLEMINGS, et al
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
VS.
) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS
AMETEK, INC., et al
) 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
CAUSE NO. 28,475 Page 62
EXHIBIT 132
22 23 24 25 0150
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0151 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0152 1 2 3 4 5 6
Exh
OPAL PRAESEL, et al
)
VS.
)
AMETEK, INC., et al
)
CAUSE NO.
ANITA GARNER, et al
)
VS.
)
AMETEK, INC., et al
)
CAUSE NO.
VIVIAN WILBURN, et al
)
VS.
)
AMETEK, INC., et al
)
CAUSE NO.
EARLENE CARTER, et al
)
VS.
)
AMETEK, INC., et al
)
CAUSE NO.
GEORGE SEARS, et al
)
VS.
)
AMETEK, INC., et al
)
CAUSE NO.
GROVER MORGAN, et al
)
VS.
)
AMETEK, INC., et al
)
CAUSE NO.
KATHA JONES, et al
)
VS.
)
AMETEK, INC., et al
)
CAUSE NO.
MELBA BRUENING, et al
)
VS.
)
AMETEK, INC., et al
)
CAUSE NO.
PATRICIA SCHNEIDER, et al )
VS.
)
AMETEK, INC., et al
)
CAUSE NO.
RONALD CEPAK, et al
)
VS.
)
AMETEK, INC., et al
)
CAUSE NO.
MILDRED BUNNS , et al
)
VS.
)
AMETEK, INC., et al
)
CAUSE NO.
HARRY BEAMAN, et al
)
VS.
)
AMETEK, INC., et al
)
CAUSE NO.
132 pt 1 Dinman.txt IN THE DISTRICT COURT MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS 20TH j u d i c i a l d i s t r i c t
28,474 IN THE DISTRICT COURT MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS 20TH j u d i c i a l d i s t r i c t 28,477 IN THE DISTRICT COURT MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 28,503 IN THE DISTRICT COURT MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 28,502 IN THE DISTRICT COURT MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 28,505 IN THE DISTRICT COURT MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
28,506 IN THE DISTRICT COURT MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 28,493 IN THE DISTRICT COURT MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 28,504 IN THE DISTRICT COURT MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 28,501 IN THE DISTRICT COURT MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS 20TH j u d i c i a l d i s t r i c t 28,525 IN THE DISTRICT COURT MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
28,522 IN THE DISTRICT COURT MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS 20t h j u d i c i a l d i s t r i c t 28,523
Page 63
EXHIBIT 132
Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt
7 BERNADETTE BERAN, et al ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
8 VS.
) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS
9 AMETEK, INC., et al
) 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
10
11
CAUSE NO. 28,524
12 LAURA BROOKS, et al
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
13 VS.
) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS
14 AMETEK, INC., et al
) 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
15
16
CAUSE NO. 28,526
17 JEANETTE CLARK, et al
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
18 VS.
) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS
19 AMETEK, INC., et al
) 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
20
21
CAUSE NO. 28,527
22 PAUL TUCKER, et al
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
23 VS.
) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS
24 AMETEK, INC., et al
) 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
25
0153
1
CAUSE NO. 28,528
2 MARY JO WOODS, et al
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
3 VS.
) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS
4 AMETEK, INC., et al
3 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
5
6
CAUSE NO. 28,573
7 VIOLA BARTEK, et al
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
8 VS.
) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS
9 AMETEK, INC., et al
) 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
10
11
CAUSE NO. 28,642
12 CHRISTIAN GERTHE, et al ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
13 VS.
) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS
14 AMETEK, INC., et al
) 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
15
16
CAUSE NO. 28,678
17 FRANK BURROUGH, et al
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
18 VS.
) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS
19 AMETEK, INC., et al
) 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
20
21
CAUSE NO. 28,685
22 DENNIS HARBOUR, et al
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
23 VS.
) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS
24 AMETEK, INC., et al
) 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
25
0154
1
CAUSE NO. 28,807
2 JOHN DUFFY, ET AL
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
3 VS.
) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS
4 AMETEK, INC., et al
) 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
5
6
CAUSE NO. 28,808
7 HENRY DAVIDSON, ET AL
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
8 VS.
) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS
9 AMETEK, INC., et al
) 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
10
11
CAUSE NO. 28,809
12 WILLIAM BROWN, ET AL
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
13 VS.
) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS
14 AMETEK, INC., et al
) 20TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
15
16
CAUSE NO. 28,812
17 BILLY MILLER, ET AL
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
Page 64
EXHIBIT 132
18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0155
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0156 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
VS. AMETEK, INC., et al
Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt ) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS ) 20TH 3UDICIAL DISTRICT
CAUSE NO. 28,813
MATTIE MCBRIDE , ET AL
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
VS.
) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS
AMETEK, INC., et al
) 20TH 3UDICIAL DISTRICT
CAUSE NO. 28,814
BARBARA BECKER , ET AL
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
VS.
) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS
AMETEK, INC., et al
) 20TH 3UDICIAL DISTRICT
CAUSE NO. 28,815
MARILYN HICKS, ET AL
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
VS.
) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS
AMETEK, INC., et al
) 20TH 3UDICIAL DISTRICT
CAUSE NO. 28,816
RAYMOND GREEN, ET AL
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
VS.
) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS
AMETEK, INC., et al
) 20TH 3UDICIAL DISTRICT
CAUSE NO. 28,817
MARIORIE FISHER, ET AL ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
VS.
) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS
AMETEK, INC., et al
) 20TH 3UDICIAL DISTRICT
CAUSE NO. 28,818
RUTH 30HNSON, ET AL
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
VS.
) MILAM COUNTY, TEXAS
AMETEK, INC., et al
) 20TH 3UDICIAL DISTRICT
REPORTER'S CERTIFICATION DEPOSITION OF BERTRAM D. DINMAN - VOLUME I
SEPTEMBER 18, 2003 I, MISTY FONDREN CLEMENTS, a Certified Shorthand Reporter in and for the State of Texas, hereby certify to the following: That the witness, BERTRAM D, DINMAN, was duly sworn by the officer and that the transcript or the oral deposition is a true record of the testimony given by the witness;
That the deposition transcript was submitted on ________________ to the witness or to the attorney for the witness for examination signature, and return to me by _________________
That the amount of time used by each party at the deposition is as follows:
MR. TIMOTHY R. CAPPOLINO: 2 HOURS, 40 MINUTES
That pursuant to information made available to the court reporter, the following includes all parties of record:
Mr. Timothy R. Cappolino, Attorney for Plaintiffs
Mr. Kevin Colbert, Mr. Richard 0. Faulk and Ms. Michelle Schreppel, Attorneys for Defendant,
Page 65
EXHIBIT 132
17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0157
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
8
Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt ALCOA, Inc.
Mr. Kevin B. Brown, Attorney for Defendant, 3M Company
Mr. Randolph L. Burns, Attorney for Defendant, Owens-ll1inoi s
Mr. Frederick J . Wagner, Attorney for Defendant, T.H. Agriculture and Nutrition
Ms. Jill K. Bramlett, Attorney for Defendant, Honeywell, International, Inc.
m s . Marisa A. Trasatti, Attorney for Defendants, Dana Corporation, Union Carbide Corporation and certainteed
Mr. Phil Brown, Attorney for Defendant, Guard-Line, Inc.
Ms. Pam Rea, Attorney for Defendant, The Quigley Company
Mr. D . Stevenson weimer, Attorney for Phillips Electronics
I further certify that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties or attorneys in the action in which this proceeding was taken, and further that I am not financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of the action.
Further certification requirements pursuant to Rule 203 of TRCP will be certified to after they have occurred.
Certified to by me this the ______ day of ________________ , 2003.
9
10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22
23 24 25 0158
1 2
3
4 5
6 7
MISTY F. CLEMENTS, TX CSR #4026
Expiration Date: 12-31-03
DSI Reporting Services, Inc.
701 North Post Oak, Suite 425
Houston, Texas 77024
Phone: (713) 554-0080
Fax:
(713) 554-0085
FURTHER CERTIFICATION UNDER RULE 203 TRCP The original deposition was/was not returned to the deposition officer on ________________ ;
if returned, the attached Changes and Signature page contains any changes and the reason(s) therefor;
if returned, the original deposition was delivered to _____________________, custodial Attorney;
That $ ____________ is the deposition officer's Page 66
EXHIBIT 132
Exh 132 pt 1 Dinman.txt
charges to the Plaintiffs for preparing the original
8 deposition transcript and any copies of exhibits;
9
That the deposition was delivered in accordance
with Rule 203.3, and that a copy of this certificate
10 was served on all parties shown therein and filed
with the Clerk.
11
Certified to by me this ________ day of
12 ________________ , 2003.
13
14
15
Misty F. Clements, TX CSR #4026
16
Expiration Date: 12-31-03
DSI Reporting Services, Inc.
17
701 North Post Oak, Suite 425
Houston, Texas 77024
18
Phone: (713) 554-0080
Fax: (713) 554-0085
19
20
21
22
23 24 25
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