Document 91p5DVjMm8EV7p2bYmkDzrrxL

PLAINTIFF'S , EXHIBIT KM-342 OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS before tiie CONSUMER PRODUCT SAFETY COMMISSION In the Matter of: Docket No. PUBLIC MEETING ON ASBESTOS Place: Date: Washington, D,C. August IS, 1977 Plges: 1 thru 213 KMX 00807 Acme Reporting Company 1411 KStreet., N. W. Washington, D. C. 20005 (202) 628-4888 Official Reporters 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 2! 22 23 24 25 URXTBD STATES COb'SOHER PRODUCT SAFETY COMMISSION Public Heating on Asbestos Monday, August 15, 1977 Consumer Product Safety Conniesion 1111 18th Street, N.W. 3rd Floor Hearing Room Washington, D. C. JOHN BYXHGTON, Chairman BARBARA H. FRANK!IN, Connissioner R. DAVID PITTLB, Commissioner THADDKUS GARRETT, Commissioner !AWRBNCE M. KUSHHBR, Connie3ioner KMX 00808 2 t 2 3 John 8. Bub, 0. > Oypsom Corp. 4 Julias Hamath, Honda* International Page 7 27 5 Barry Rhodas, Onion Carbida Corp. 62 6 181 7 Suodaon Gibbons, natural Boaonroos Dafanaa Coanoil 107 8 Barry Castlaman, BnTiroamamtal Coaaoltant 154 9 Patar Simpson, Hastie Crafts Co. 123 10 Robort Ranch, Snvironaontal Dafansa Hand 136 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 KMX 00809 ) 3 ...2,*.5l.L.5. CHAXRHA8 CYXKGTOMt We'll call this public abating then, asbestos by the 0. 6. Consumer Product Safety Com mission, to order. This mooting be* boon called to hear oral presentations of data, views or arguments on the Commission's proposal to ban two consumer-products under tbs Consumer Product safety Act. >> " *> I1 a Jo'hn Byington , Chairman of the Corals*ion* and also participating are Commissioners Lawrence Kushner, Barbara Franklin, David Pittle, aa well as feanbers of our staff. Mr. Jules Bigio, the Office of Engineering and Science, Dr. Robert Bslir, Office of Health Sciences, Charles Jacobson, Division of Enforcement, Dale Ray from the Division of Economic Studies, Francine Shecter, from the Office of Program Management, B. Pitkin, Office of General Counsel. We are also pleased this morning to welcome participants from a couple of other agencies participating in this effort, as pat of the aew interagency cooperation and coordination, and we have Hr. William Warren of the Standards Division of OSBA, and Hr. kon Levine of the Office of General Counsel of Eta. KMX 00810 And also we have ji.vt been joined by Commissioner Thaddens Garrett. Now, on Apr51 28th, 1977, the Commission announced rtc decision to pic-c&se banning consumer patching 4 and artificial aaberislng materials containing respirable, free form, aebeetoa. The proposal to ban was published in the Federal Register of July 29, 1977, and also since that time copies of the proposal have been sent to 51 aaaufacturers of patehing compounds, as well as copies have baen provided to The Fireplaoe Institute for distribution to gas log manufacturers and distributors. Now, the scope of the proposed ban on patching compounds would include all such compounds that are dis tributed to or used and enjoyed by consumers and consumer environments such as homes and schools. The proposed ban, whioh would be effective 30 says after publication of the final rule, would apply to products in inventory as well as those manufactured on or after the effective date Of the rule. Now, the scope of the proposed ban on artificial emberising materials would include all such materials in inventory as well as those, manufactured on or after the effective date of the rule, and the proposed effective date for this ban would be the date of publication of the final ban, of the final rule, rather. KMX 00811 Now, in addition to soliciting wtitten comments. the proposal also advised that an opportunity would be provided for oral presentation of data, views or arguments 1 2 3 4 s 6 7 a 9 10 11 12 13 U IS 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 23 5 op the propound bans as required by section S of tba Consume; Produce Safety net. ' . And the Commission regulations that cover all oral presentations such a* these are in 16 CPR 1109. Oral j presentations provide interested persons with an opportunity ; to participate In rulemaking activities and such participation. .i and discussion between the Commissioners* nod interested I pereons during oral presentations night not otherwise be available. - The proceedings of this nesting are non adver sary and informal, as legislative proceedings would be. There are no formal pleadings or adverse parties as there f[ I i t are in court proceedings. . A transcript of this meeting is being made and should be available within 10 days. Interested persons, including those speaking today, may submit written comments and other related information to the Office of the Secretary on both the proposed bans as well as issues discussed today until Aug-at 29, 1577. These comments, ae well as the transcript of i i this meeting, will, be considered part of the public record, on the proposed bans, and will be available for public inspection. KMX 00812 How, the Cosmibeion has received seven requests to make oral prssentati?r. . Questions will be asked of s I ? I I r,- 6 1 these making oral presentations only by the*presiding of 2 ficer, commissioners, and commission and staff Members. 3 Any participants or others in the audience who wish to ask 4 questions of the participants should write out their ques 5 tions, give us their names and organizational affiliations 6 and pass then up to Hiss Praneine Behacter, sitting right 7 there. 8 :;V Papers are available at the rear of the room. 8 Persons* questions will be asked subject to such limita 10 tions as time, relevance and repetition allow. 11 Questions as well as presentations should be 12 confined to the scope of this meeting, and as presiding 13 officer we will attempt to allow as many views as possible 14 to be heard during this proceeding within that scope. 15 How, at this point in time we have not received 16 any advance copies of any written statements or outlines, 17 so any of the parties who have prepared statements, I 18 would ask you to provide then to Nr. Shelton Buts here, 19 unless you already have copies to distribute. 20 If you do then we would like you to provide him 21 with sufficient copies for himself and for the Commissioners, 22 and as many other copies as you have for staff. If you 23 don't have sufficient copies with you, if you'll give him 24 one copy we will take care of the duplication and provide 25 them, the Commissioner and staff, with copies from our own , JVv, KM* 00813 1 2 3 4 5 & 7 8 9 10 II 12 13 14 IS 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 i 7 facilities. So we would appreciate as soon as possible your providing that to him. The following persons are scheduled to sake oral presentations. Michael Melton of 0. S. Gypsum, i Julius Someth of Bonder, Barry Rhodes of Onion Carbide Corporation, ffvedeen Gibbons of the Natural Resources Defense Connoil, Barry Caetle*u,/ifce Snvironaentai consul i ! tant, Peter Simpson of Rustrie Crafts Company, and Robert Ranch of the Environmental Defense Fund. In addition, although he does not plan to make an i i r oral presentation, Mr. tDeCarterof Jones Mansfield Corporation is with us, and will be available to answer any questions. If that is agreeable in terms of providing the material, other than any informal comments that you have, we would begin and we'd call then Mr. Michael Helton of '* the V. 8. Gypsna Corporation, who has asked for approximate- I ' ly 20 minutes. Mr. Helton. ' MR. BUSH: .Mr. Chairman, Mr. Helton could not be here, he's sorry this morning. . ' CHAIRMAH BYXMGTON: It would be fine, if you'd , i- also give us your name and title, for the record. HR. BUSH: Gooci rooming, Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission. My rtcP. is John S. Bush, B-u-s-h, I aa director of GovernKcntal Affairs of United States Gypsum ti i: KMX 00814 8 Company. Z am appearing today on behalf of ay company and ooaaaat on tha Consumer Product Safety Commission's proposed rale concerning asbestos oontaining patching compounds. During the 50 years, past 50 years, patching compounds have been manufactured in the United States as a complement to the steadily increasing use of gypsum wall board and as a repair material for existing plaster or gypsum wall board, as dry wall walls and ceilings. Patching compounds are known in the construction trades as surface preparation products, a collective term which includes three basic compositions. Joint treatment compound, speckling material, and patching plaster. In terms of volume, joint treatment compound is most significant of these products, so I will concentrate on this class of product. Joint treatment compounds are cementous materials, typically used to reinforce and conceal joinings of gypsum wall board used on walls and ceilings. Joint treatment compound is also used to patch, fill, and texture surfaces much as spackling material is used. It may be purchased in dry powder, or ready-mixed form. Joint treatment compound products are chemically KMX 00815 KMX 00816 9 1 designed to satisfy at least 25 critical requirements, 2 working characteristics and pacttauc properties. These 3 include shelf life, vet nix life, stability consistency, 4 slip, vet pack, feathering, coverage, low shrinkage, bond, 5 edge and cheek zesistance. . 6 These products nost be designed to.work under 7 widely varying weather and elinetieeohditloas, applica 8 tion methods and tools. Most powder and ready-nix 9 products are sold in three functional forms; taping, JO topping and all purpose. 1) The taping form ia designed with particular 12 emphasis on high bonding properties as a first coating over 13 wallboard joints. The toping form ia designed to provide 14 easier finishing properties while all purpose is a conven 15 ient compromise of the taping in, copying functions. 18 There are well over 1400 possible synthetic 17 and natural raw materials that may be. considered in 18 preparation -- in preparing- a new surface preparation 19 formula. . 20 The use of each ingredient nay produce a product 21 that differs from all other products in grade, color, 22 composition, purity and reaction. Changing any one in 23 gredient, beneficially or aii-rsro*ly affects at least one 24 of-the critical performance properties. 25 This delicate relationship makes joint compound 10 1 formulate into very precise, complex, and demanding process. 2 , yf A single formula is seldom acceptable in multiple markets 3 and therefore a family of acceptably balanced formulas is .4 required. 5 Any change in working properties can quickly 6 affect user acceptance. Over the years tjoint treatment 7 compounds technically contain a very minor amount of as 8 bestos, usually no more than a few percent. 8 For this reason we were not convinoed that thev 10 presence of this very small amount of asbestos posed a It threat to health. However, when the health issue was 12 raised in the early 1970's, the United States Gypsum Com 13 pany funded a research project to develop non asbestos 14 formulas for all of these surface preparation materials. 15 This research project was a complex and expensive 16 effort, however we are pleased to note the project was 17 successful. As a result of this success, United States 18 Gypsum, during the last few years, has offered a complete 19 line of non asbestos, joint treatment products. 20 Today, United States Gypsum's entire line of 21 these products is nonasbestos and available nationwide. 22 We believe our nonasbestos formulas will perform their 23 -function of providing a proper, monolithic surface, ready 24 for a final decoration in a manner equal to the old asbestos 25 formula. KMX 00817 11 We also believe such characteristics as shelf life and wet life, and other working properties, are such that these products can be marketed ard vsed on the job in a fully satisfactory manner. ' There is always a reluctance to accept any change but these new United States gypsum products are gaining widespread acceptance. Any reluctance tojvsiake the change, . ': . L'i* ,v we believe, is due more to the habit and the continued availability of asbestos formulas than to any substantive reason. Today, non asbestos products are sold to and used by the same people that previously expressed a preference for the asbestos containing products. While the constituents of the non asbestos formulas obviously differ from the older asbestos containing formulas, the non asbestos line of products is manufactured with the same production equipment used to manufacture the older formulas. United States Gypsum's non asbestos line is available in a full range of sizes and packages from small consumer size packages to larger, contractor size packages. We believe the larger portion of joint -compound is consumed in new construction. . Its application is usually contracted to dry wall or painting contractors'. products for the new construc tion market move predominc.ntiy through building material KMX 00818........... 12 I specialty atoras, limber dealers, large paint stores, mass 2 merchandisers, and oontractore. these products are 3 typically aold la 25 pound bags in the case of powder, and 4 62 pound, five gallon containers in the case of the ready 9 aixed products. 3 While the contractor is believed to represent 7 the larger share of the Market, a certain percentage does 8 find its way into consuner channels. The joint treatment 9 industry is composed of sons 100 manufacturers in approxi 10 mately 26 states, which encompass over 130 plants in 238 11 warehouses. An estimated 55 percent of total volume was ' 12 manufactured by five or six national or near national 'r - 13 producers. 14 The balance cones from regional, sectional and ' if 15 local producers. In summary, it is our company's position 1 16 that in the event the Consumer Product Safety Commission 17 implements the proposed limitation on asbestos containing , 18 products, thataction will notappreciably disrupt the 19 market. ^ 20 Comparable non asbestos products are, and for r 21 .k several years have been, available from United States Gypsum; 22 as well as other manufacturers active in the industry. > 23 Reformulation of the various asbestos containing products 24 would be required but we, atleast, have not found it 25 . necessary to make major new capital investment for new ! ! KMX 00819 1 1 . 13 . 2 or different production equipment. Existing production equipment has been suitable S 4 for non asbestos formulas. Generally speaking, the same> observations are true, are applied to spackling materials, 5 $ although the term also is generic and includes products which never did contain asbestos* 7 J Patching plaster, a qpysua product as we use .the 6 term, has never contained asbostos* Thank you very nuch $ j for this opportunity tc make these views known to the Consumexj 10 { ProductSafetyCommission. 11 . CHAIRMAN BYiNCTOK: Okay, thank you very much, 12 j > j Mr. Bush. | 13 Can you identify for the Commission what types 14 ! 15 * 16 of substitutes were used when asbestos was taken out? MR. BUSH: X don't know the formula, these 1400 potential alternatives that's been used, Mr.-Byington, but 17 I will attempt to get that information. . ! - COMMISSIONER BYIHGTOH : t think it would be very 19 helpful to the Commission to have some understanding if 20 there is a particular binder that was found most useful 21 and maybe of the greatest u&a across the board, it would 22 be helpful to us. 23 (1 24 One of the things - c. t we're constantly' faced with 13 what ars we looking ot in terms of alternatives. 25 Commissioner Franklin. KMX 00820 { j 14 t COMMISSIONER PRAMKLIN Do X understand from 2 your statement on page three that you are at this point 3 selling both asbestos containing and non asbestos contain 4 ing joint treatment compounds7 5 MR* BOSHi Mo, ma'am. We sell nothing but asbestos 6 free -- 7 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: Okay. 8 MR* BUSH: Non asbestos prodhcts. 9 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN:' I wasn't clear from the 10 C way your statement was -- 11 MR. BUSH: Oh, I'm sorry, perhaps this wasn't - 12 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: All right, well we've got 13 it for the record. You're not selling anything -- 14 MR. BUSH: No, ma'am. 15 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: -- with asbestos in it at 16 this point. Okay. The other question that relates to 17 what you have said here in the middle of your statement on 18 page 3 is the implication that the non asbestos formula is 19 perfectly acceptable to everyone who's using it and the 20 implication further to me is that your sales haven't gone 21 down as a result of your change in formula. Is that a 22 correct assumption? KMX 00821 23 MR. BUSH: So far as the first question is con 24 cerned, I think we're trying to say here that we -- that 25 there is some resistance to the non asbestos compounds, but  t t 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 to If 12 13 14 1$ 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 i*' i< i IS that we think thi.a is just a normal resistance to change, there are do substantive reasons for this, that many of the people who were resistant to the asbestos -- non asbes tos products, are now using it and quite happily, and we see no problem in it. COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN The reason I thought that that was your conclusion was that sentence that reads, today our non asbestos products are said to and used by the sane people that nay have previously expressed a preference for the asbestos containing product. MR. BUSK: Yes. COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: You're saying that's true but with some qualifications. a'am. MR. BUSH: I think that's what we mean, yes, COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: Do you have any indica tion as to what consumers think of ths substitute? MR, BUSH: I don't believe we -- COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: Now my presumption is you were not selling -- well, you've said that directly -- to consumers, selling to somebody else who sells to con sumers . KR. BUSK: Yep. KMX 00822 COMMISSIONER FAj . .'TMj.'k ? Ky question is, what do consumers think? . t i f > *} 5 16 I MR. BOSHt We have no information on that. X 2 think the typical household eoneumer would be someone with 3 little experience with the produot, and not know the dif 4 ference, quite frankly. But rather the people who make S a profession of applying these things would be the ones 6 who might notice a change. 7 But we have no -- we have no extensive consumer 8 marketing apparatus but rather we're primarily involved 9 with major contractors. So I don't know the consumer re 10 action. 11 COMMISSIONER FRANKLINi 1 hear again in your 12 statement your conclusion that you feel that our regula 13 tion is not going to, and I quote here, "appreciably dis 14 rupt the market." 15 MR. BOSK: Our experience, and that of our per 16 sonnel throughout the United States, has been that most 17 of the major producers now have non asbestos compounds, 18 and we see no impact or no slowing in construction or what 19 not, if you decide to go ahead with this. 20 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: My question then would 21 be whether you as a representative of one of the major 22 producers, could foresee any difficulties that might accrue 23 to small manufacturers. 24 MR. BUSH: I don't know, quite frankly. You know, 25 KMX 00823 17 1 typically many businesses are teetering on the verge of 2 collapse in any change that can cause them diffieultiee. 3 Me -- Z have no information that would put anyone out of 4 business. 5 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: Okay. But there do appear ! 6 to be some small 7 MR. BUSHi Well, we say, what, seven -8 COMMISSZOHER FRANKLIN: --sort of small business 9 10 MR. BOSH: -- ir five or six. 11 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: Yes. 12 MR. BOSH: Manufacturers, probably produce 55 13 percent of the total, and there ere 95 Or 94 other pro 14 ', m ' ducers, we say a total of about 100. 15 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: Yes, that's really my 16 question and my concern -- 17 MR. BUSH: Yes, ma'am. 18 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: --about the impact on 19 the small companies. Thank you. 20 COMMISSIONER PITTLE: Do you know if the substi 21 tute that you're using is fibrous at all? 22 HR. BOSH: I don't know anything about the formu 23 lation, I'm sorry, CoaaiEti;ntr Pittle, but I'll attempt, 24 asChairman Byiccton asked, tv get that information and 5 j 25 sene itto you. KMX00824 j5 ) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 8 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 \ 18 COMMISSIONER PITTLEs The name of It is one thing, but certainly if the name turns out to be something .of a trade secret I can understand your concern about it. But I would like to find out if there is any fibrous content to it. Do you know if -- I guess when you're supplying it -- I won't ask if you know, but when you supply the other information, would you try to give an Indication of the kind of safety tests on the staterial that you performed before you marked it. MR. BUSH: Yes, sir. COMMISSIONER PITTLE: On page 2 you made a com ment that the joint treatment compound is typically, in the past, have only contained a email amount of asbestos, usually no more than a few percent. If there is a way you can tell us a little more precisely whether it was five percent by weight or three percent by weight -- MR. BUSH: Yes, sir. COMMISSIONER PITThE: -- that would be very help ful also. And finally, on page 4 you mention that roughly 55 percent of the market is in the hands of five or six large producers, roughly half of it is five producers and KMX 00825 19 mi the other half Is vith 95 producers. Co you knov if the 2 } * < four or five oti>r,r large producers market a completely 3 asbestos free line at ill? 4 HR. BUSH: Prom their containers I've seen around { 5i town, construction jobs, and governmental affairs is ay 6 area, you know, rather than the construction business. ipti 7 Virtually all of them hare asbestos free or non asbestos a r iti on ths containers. But I'll get the answer. 9 COMMISSIONER PITTIEi The other half then, the 10 95 smaller manufacturers -- if you have any knowledge It about that that would really be very helpful. 0 i i X 12 You made a statement soatwhercs on page 2,to 13 tie that off completely, that there were well over 1400 14 possible synthetic and natural raw materials that could be 15 considered. 16 Of those 1400 on a group of 1400 that could be 17 used as bonding agents, I mean, it's not like asbestos 18 would be competing with 1400 other ingredients. Id MR. BUSSt Yes. 20 COMMISSIONER PXTTLE; And use. Ie that total 21 different kinds of ingredients that go into it? 22 MR. BUSK: I believe this is all the ingredients. j 23 It. was -- KMX 00826 I | 24 COMMISSIONER PIYTRh: so how many different kinds j i 25 t of thxrgs are there that aw~st.ee would, be competing with, ; 20 are there only three or four logical substitutes, or 20 or 507 Because that would help us to know aore what the -- what we aspect to see in the substitutes, except I guess from what you're saying, the substitutes have already taken place and the Industry seeas to have regulated itself* NR. BOSBt We spent, X think, an awful lot of money solving this, and you know, X would guess if we gave you a list of 21, 20 of them probably aren't very good, and we discovered which one was. COMMISSIONER PITTLEi And you found it. 11 MR. BUSHi You don't spend a lot of money unless 12 you hope to come to, you know, the best answers. 13 COMMISSIONER PITTLBt Thank you. 14 KMX 00827 MR. BUSKt Thank you, sir. 15 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN! Mr. Chairman. 16 CHAIRMAN BYINGTONt Okay, let me follow up on a 17 oouple of those that were passed up because they relate 18 to where Commissioner Pittls left off. If you could also 19 -- we can also give you for the record if you would like a 20 list of a couple of these questions. 21 And that was, when you decided -- when you give 22 us the information on the substitute, one of the questions 23 is that if the' formulation patented that you have, and 24 if so is it available for license, for some of the smaller 25 manufacturers, which also may get back to what Commissioner 21 1 Franklin was talking about where they may be able to work 2 Vw** out a licensing arrangement, if that's agreeable. And one of the other questions that's been asked 4 that ve would appreciate your checking on.when you give 5 us the information on the eubstitute is that have there 6 been any toxicological tasting on tha substitute, have 7 you done any tasting on the eubstitute that you're using, 8 and how' are you monitoring your asbestos and your finished 9 non asbestos compounds? 10 In other words when you say some of these are 11 asbestos free or non asbestos compounds, how are you 12 checking on that, and do you raally mean that they're 13 totally asbestos free? 14 MS. BUSH: Yes. KMX 00828 15 CHAIRMAN BTINGTONj Or do you mean that you're 16 not using asbestos as part of your formulation and there 17 may still be some contamination. 18 MR. BOSH: Yoo mean from another ingredient or 19 something. Hell, I can check that. 20 CHAIRMAN BYINGTOff: Okay, because that's what 21 we're -- in other words whan ve said they're asbestos free, 22 that may mean that you ar? s.ot overtly using asbestos as 23 one of the ingredients 5.:- the formula. On the other hand, 24 we'ra looking at whether or not the overall product is 25 being checked and is it. being monitored, and if so are we 22 getting soa* asbestos through contamination, and what kind of levels, that this night result in. MR. BUSH: Tea. CHAIRMAN BYXNGTONi Commissioner Franklin. COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: I wanted to follow up one nore tine on the concern about what eonsuners may think of the substitute product in terns of how it works, and so on. suner. MR.BUSH: You're talking about the household con- COMMZSSIONSR FRANKLIN: I'm talking about the household consumer because that really is where our concern is. MR. BUSH: I'll see if we have the information on that. COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: We are talking about con* soaer products. Yes, I would simply ask that you would provide whatever you could for the record. I would further follow up this question about toxicological testing, and indicate that if you have done such testing in substitutes, that we should have, for the record, what tests and what the results were. MR. BUSH: Yes, ma'am, okay. KMX 00829 CHAIRMAN BYINGTON: Commissioner Kushner. COMMISSIONER KUSHNER: On page 4 I'd just like to i 23 i clarify something, although your statement appears to be 2 quite explicit.' You say there are'some - 3 HR, BUSH: My problem is this is Mr. Helton'a 4 statement, end I got it at 10:30 lest night by aircraft, 5 commercial I might say. 6 COMMISSIONER KUSKNBRi You mentioned that the 7 joint treatment industry ie composed of some 100 manu 8 facturers, you literally mean manufacturers, focmul&tors 9 1 i of joint compounds. 10 MR. BtJSK: X. think we mean anybody who mixes it U up and offers it for sale, and that could be somebody in i it 12 s i13 a bath tub someplace, probably, that we may not know about it, you know. *t ii i 14 i COMMISSIONER KUSHKBR: Za there very much private 15 labelling? 16 MR. BUSK: I don't know. I can find out what we I t 17 do in that. it 18 I COMMISSIONER KUSHNSR: X think that would be \ 19 useful information. 20 KK. BUSH: Private consumer labeling you mean. 21 COMMISSIONER KOSRnaR: Yes. That was the only 22 question. i \! i' 23 CHaIRMAK BYINGTCR. Chay, Commissioner Pittle, you 2/1 lE had one moro question. KMX 00830 r 25 COMMISSIONER PXTT7.1:: 'cc., 7. understate this is KMX 00831 24 1 unfair to yon because you're just going to be a writer of 2 question*/ but -- 3 NR. BOSHi MO/ I've got to be good for something. 4 CONMI8SZOMSR PXTTLB: Back when you did use as 5 bestos in your conpounds/ do you know, are there just a 6 limited number of suppliers of asbestos fiber used, or 7 did you us* a variety of people? 8 The reason I ask that is because I'm trying to 9 get a handle on the various kinds of fibers that we might 10 expect to find in a spackling or a treatment compound like 11 this. It seems to a* I've got-- 12 HR. BOSHt You mean a variety of types of as 13 bestos -- 14 COMMISSIONER PITTLB: Yes. 15 MR. BUSH: -- or a variety of suppliers of the 16 same type? 17 COMMISSIONER PITTLE: Suppliers who may have a 18 different -- who may say it's the same type, it might be 19 either slightly different in sise or due to the processing 20 by the asbestos manufacturer or supplier, might wind up 21 seeing a different fiber in a line of products like this. 22 HR. BUSH: Yes. 23 COMMISSIONER PITTLE: For example, do you use 24 only -- well, I won't even pick one. I'll just -- use only 25 brand X fiber in your products, and if we ever tested your 25 asbestos product we voeld expect it to be all alike,end we would ba able to trace it. Whereas if you*d used a variety of several different suppliers and it sort of all got mixed in together, the fiber sight have slightly dif ferent characteristics and it say show up with different measurements when these things are tested. And without a complete history of how youv** ever used this, just whether or not you have -- . HR. BUSHi Yes, sir. COMMISSIONER PITTLE: -- and if you feel comfortable in telling us who, then that would be good also. * MR. BOSH: Yes-, sir. KMX 00832 COMMISSIONER PITTLE: Thank you. CHAIRMAN BYINGTON: Aad lastly, two other short questions that vere submitted. One is, was there any in crease in the cost due to this change in formulation in terns of the product, at the sale, the retail level, or is it left to you any way, and if so could you give us some idea what percentage increase is due to the new formulation. MR. BUSH: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN BYXNGTCH: And secondly, in utilising this newly formalized product, is < t more, time consuming, is. it more difficult, is it at a I' i.. difficult either to use or to apply or longer drying y ? ri d, iu other words is there any additional iaber facte;;?:? tha'?. woult gc into thia 26 ! baetue of tba ibiaaoa of asbestos. 2 MR. BOSHi Tas> sir/ I understand that it is 3 slightly, but ve don't believe it's substantive. 4 CHAXRMAH BYXNGTOH: Okay, that's the kind of -- 5 MR. BOSHi Mhieh is a kind of judgmental thing. 6 CHAXRMAH BXXHGTOH < Okay. And you indicate that 7 ,in your statement of approximately 100, if it's possible 8 we would also appreciate your submitting to these questions 9 the list of those that you know of, in other words you 10 oaae up with 100. Me won't hold you to exactly 100, but 11 we'd like the list of those that you knew of that you used 12 to compile that approximation. 13 MR. BDSH: Yes, sir. 14 CHAXRMAH BYXHGTOH: Okay, there being no other 15 questions we want to thank you, Mr. Bush. 16 MR. BOSH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 17 CHAIRMAN BYXHGTOH: Me appreciate your coming. 18 The next witness is Mr.Julius Nemeth of Bonder 19 International. And X'd like to ask at this time that 20 anyone who does not have at least 15 copies of their 21 statement, if they would at this time give them to Mr. 22 Shelton Buts so that we could make copies now, rather than 23 in the future. 24 Okay. KMX 00833 25 MR. NEMETH: Mr. Chairman, in that regard I have 27 1 just sobs prepared notes, should I -- - 2 CHAIRMAN BYINGTON; That's fine. 3 MR. MBKSTHtShould I. back off -- 4 CHAIRMAN SriNGTONi No. 5 MR. NEMETH: -- one person and let him make r { l i 6 copies in the meantime. Would yon prepare that? ? 7 CHAIRMAN BYINGTON: Vbat do you juet have some 8 notes yon're going to be reading? 9 MR. NEMETH; Yea, I have just some -- it's a semi- { SO prepared statement with hand scribbled notes on it, so if 11 yon want -- I 5 t 12 CHAIRMAN BYINGTON; Why don't you go ahead and 13 give yonrs, then after we're done we'll Zeros them. That's 14 all. 15 MR. NEMETH: Fine, thank you. 16 CHAIRMAN BYINGTONtBut if everyone else who has 17 any kind of a prepared statement and doesn't have 15 copies, 16 would you please let Mr. Sheldon Buts know now so we can 19 make copies during this period. Okay. 20 HR. NEMETH: Fine, thank you. ..... KMX 00834 2S My name is Julius Nemeth., president of Bondex 22 International, and 2 want to thank the chairman and members 23 of the Commission for this opportunity to appear and comment 24 on the proposed ban for coroiucar patching compounds. 25 Having rer.d the proposed rulemaking as published 28 t In the Federal hegister, it's elsar that the Comiaission has 2 reviewed all aspects that have been presented to date, 3 nonetheless sines this hearing is scheduled to produce 4 further comment froa the original petitioners, I felt it 5 advisable to consent on one or two points and to more 6 clearly state our position as a snail manufacturer. 7 Mow in our 95th year, bonder International has e acted in good faith in starting a voluntary reformu1Jtion program in early 1976, having more or less seen the hand 10 writing on the wall. - 11 With the goal of converting our entire line to 12 an asbestos free basis, as the Commission has pointed out, 13 nany factors enter into such a reformulation program, in 14 cluding from a competitive marketing standpoint the im 15 portance of providing the consumer with equal or similar 16 quality and no major price penalty, while at the same time 17 competing in the marketplace with a more favorably formu 18 lated, asbestos product still available. 19 Our first conversion to non asbestos formula was 20 in August of 1976, the second in December of *76, and as 21 of April *77 all production of asbestos containing 22 paint sundry, products was discontinued. We feel perhaps 23 a trifle prematurely, but nonetheless mandated by the 24 attention getting, though some erroneous media reports, 25 which alleged an immediate ban and needless to say created KMX 00835 29 t considerable turmoil in tim marketplace among some of our 2 distributors and dealers is trying or attempting to estab 3 lish n eoursa of action. 4 Sinoe it appears that most of the Commission's 5 data is based on occupational statistics, it probably 6 would be difficult to doeumebt the statement, and I quota, 7 "for many people, the major exposure to iahalable asbestos 8 is in the home." , 9 Particularly in view of the acknowledged, many 10 sources of exposure to asbestos, which exist in the environ 11 meat today. Since we're told that the minimum threshold 12 level of exposure is unknown, wo fully expect and can ac 13 cept the ban from the use of asbestos in wall patching 14 materials, although again as & small manufacturer certainly 15 more time for product teatlng would be desirable. 16 We are concerned, however, that the ban, if it 17 must be, should be exactly as proposed under CPSA instead 18 of under the Federal Hasardous Substances Act. Having 19 acted voluntarily on the reformulation aspect, wa're 20 frankly looking at the economic impact and suggest it as 21 a product in use for centuries. 22 Asbestos is not an imminent har.ard, and 7. be 23 lieve a repurchase program '.rould place an unfair burden 24 on today's manufacturers, who a matter of practicality { It ! 25 would'eric up with the fccfcai purchase expense. ? ) KMX 00836 [* 30 f In any out, such a recall program does not 2 produea the complete desired and rasult because of the 3 othar asbestos expoaura factors raaaining in the market 4 place. 5 Ha believe that any repurchase program would have 6 a drastic financial impact on the small manufacturers, 7 ourselves included, with no real equity to the consumer 8 in comparing a recant unused purchase, and therefore re 9 turnable, versus earlier purchases already applied or 10 consumed. 11 Our products and those of some othar manufacturers 12 have in fact bean properly labelled to inform of asbestos 13 content, thereby providing the consumer with a product 14 choice. 15 In view of the media coverage on a national 16 basis, it's inconceivable that any consumer of patching 17 materials would not in the last several years been apprised 18 of the controversy. ' 19 Although it was published that 100 and 360 days 20 were considered too lengthy a time period on .-effective 21 date after the final ruling, the Commission staff, researchers 22 nevertheless indicated that asbestos free products can 23 probably be in distribution in about six months. 24 Under those circumstances, we respectfully 25 suggest reconsideration of a 180 day effective date, KMX,0837 31 I possibly staggered front manufacturing bo distributor, to 2 final rasala, to better facilitate olearing of all distri 3 bution channels of offending materials, and to further 4 minimise eonfusion over existing stocks when that date 5 arrives. 6 Frosya practical standpoint, even without a 7 repurchase program, many manufacturers will, in all likeli 8 hood, have to relieve their distributors of any remaining 9 stocks of asbestos containing products. 10 One final point that Z would like to make con II cerns the matter of the acceptability of continued contrac 12 tor use of asbestos containing products, and the need for 13 a olearer definition of suitable selling and buying pro 14 cedures which do not place unreasonable burden on existing 15 lines of distribution as far as determining the final user. 16 The fact of the matter is, many contractors 17 still do use, end many still prefer, asbestos containing 18 joint cement. If asbestos containing, wall patching 19 materials for contractor use are not to be banned, we 20 suggest that labelling of this nature for contractor use, 21 for industrial use only, should then, in fact, be suf 22 ficient to place the consumer on notice and absolve any 23 manufacturer, wholesaler or retailer of liability as to 24 ultimate uses. KMX 00838 25 One further means of limitation might well be in KM* 00839 32 1 package six# sinoe tha oua of powder joint cements, in 2 the case of povdar joint cements, that 25 pound bag, and 3 in tha eaea of premix, tha five gallon package, are more 4 commonly though not exclusively contractor oriented. 5 Thank you, again, hr this opportunity ad con 6 sideration. 7 CHAIRMAN BYXNGTONt Could you be a little more 6 explicit in terms of your request that we reconsider the 9 180 day time frame? The way it's presently phrased it to would be 30 days after the day of tha publishing of the 11 final notice, and it would relate to the manufacturer. 12 MR. NKMBTH: Sale and distribution, as X under 13 stand it. 14 CHAIRMAN BYINGTON* So what you're talking about 13 what be your problem that you're raising is' not necessarily 16 the 30 days for the manufacturer, it's the 180 days down 17 to the time. 18 MR. NEMETH: Yes. What I'm saying is that your 19 staff researchers indicated that it would be six months 20 before you can have all non asbestos materials in distri 21 bution, so that if six months for that is a reasonable 22 figure, then I'm suggesting that perhaps the 30 day figure 23 should perhaps apply for a manufacturing deadline, but to 24 allow additional time for the materials that are out there 25 to clear channels. Particularly under this CPSA proposal. 33 t which would not cull for a baa. z In other vordi; I'm thinking of the enforcement 3 V end of thisi in teres of clearing the channels out, that 4 perhaps 90 days for a distributor, or 180 days for a i i 5i distributor and a retailer night be a sore realistic ap6 proaoh to have everything out. 7 ii \ \ CHAIRKAfi BYXMGTONx Okay, well I understand now, , 8' but I guess ay eonfusion was that X'a listening to vhat 9 you had to say without, unfortunately, being able to see to jt j it I II You seem to be discussing that at about the same 12 time X think you said something along about need possibly IS more time, reformulation time. 14 HR. HEMETHr X'a saying we can accept it. We IS would, from an internal standpoint, we would prefer more 16 time for product testing, but we understand the situation 17 and we have been testing and have been working, and we 18 can accept the ban. IS CHAIRMAN BYINGTOHs Okay. KMX 00840 20 RR.NEKETHi I'tr. juet concerned about the proce i tt i' i 21 dures. Z> CHAIRMAN SYIHGTOH: X`he severe economic impact 23 that you're referring to roally related to recall, aad 24 reformulation time, you believed, you can meet the 30 day 25 and th? * ; I1 \ fL }i \ i t i 34 1 MR. HKKBTBt We are oat of asbestos -- 2 CHAIRMAN BTXNGTONt Now. 3 MR. mini -- aow, yss. As of April we complete 4 ly discontinued all asbestos patching type naterials. 5 Me have reformulated -- let me say that again -- 6 we have reformulated to a non asbestos basis. He have 7 not discontinued selling. Nut anything produced since 8 April, the end of April, has been on a non asbestos basis. 9 CHAIRMAN BYINGTON: All right, if that's the 10 ease, that was one of the reasons why I felt the time 11 frame should be shortened. I*m one of those who made the 12 motion supported by my fellow commissioners, but I mean, 13 one of my concerns and why X particularly raise it, and 14 maybe they would have raised it as well for the same reason, 15 was because of that. 16 In other words, if you take April, let's say the 17 end of April, and you start with May, by October you'll 18 be at the 180 day period. And my concern has bean that 19 we have taken inordinately .long -- 20 MR. NEMETH> I understand. 21 CHAIRMAN BYINGTON: -- in getting from there to 22 here. 23 MR. NEMETH: Yes. KMX 00841 24 CHAIRMAN BYINGTON: And as I indicated, one of 25 the problems was that the deeper the staff and the Commission 1 35 t 2 3. * 4 got into it, the Hrqer aosi of the problems became, and 5 we needed to clarify sow? cf those In terras of the work | 6 that we are requirac1. to dc prior to publishing a proposal. 7 It took. u* a couple of months or to longer than we had . . e originally anticipated that it would. And therefore since there was great, as you ; j10 indicated, publicity, sons of it unfortunately not correct, jn back in April when we originally made the original decision, \z ' ' and then the end of July when we published, 1 felt that ti ! i is we had already need maybe another 60 days, 90 days, wticr> 14 if you add the 120 comes not too far from the 180. ; j15 And so even in your own particular situation, if 16 you assume, as you said, you haven't been doing it since j 17 April, let's assume since the 1st of Kay everything that's j 18 left to your place has been non asbestos? ' j j19 HR. NEMETH ISO, because we discontinued production 20 at that point and went into the production -- j 21 22 23 -- -- CHAIRMAN BTINGTOK*. Okay, so -- MR. HEKETHt But we shifted from inventory, ao it | t} j t^ 24 CHAIRMAN EIINGTOK: What sort of on inventory do 25 yon maintain? KMX 00842 1 HR. HEHETK: Well, there would be in some instances, I there would be a 30 to SO .. 30 -- some items 90 days in- f 36 ! CHAIRMAN BYXNGTONi On hand at the tine. 2 So prodbotion atopped aa of - 3 MR. NXMBTH: Map lat, for all practical purposes. 4 CHAIRMAN BYXMGTOMi Okay. 5 MR. NEMETHt Yes. 6 CHAIRMAN BYXNGTONi Aa of the first of Kay nothing 7 ore was being produoed. 8 MR. NBMXTHt That's correct. 9 CHAIRMAN BYXNGTOMs Bat effectively you would 10 have through on the 90 day thing/ you night have through 11 July -- 12 MR. MBMETHt He night be coning to the end of it 13 now, yes. 14 CHAIRMAN BYXNGTONt All right. IS MR. NEMETH: Which neans there is still some out 16 in the distribution channels. ' 17 CHAIRMAN BYXNGTON: So your point is, agMin if 18 X understand it* no problen with the 30 days as long as 19 it*e left at the manufacturer level, but if it's not and 20 it's at the retail level as well, there is going to be a significant economic burden potentially facing the snaller 21 nanufacturer because of what's going to be left in the 22 23 chain? 24 MR. NEMETH: Yesr and from a practical standpoint we will probably be asked to take back from our distributors 25 KMX 00843 ! r 37 r plus ve have the other factor of while we try to tell ear 2 ! t i retailers to taro their stock/ ve really 'don't know hov 3 much of It ie still out thcro fro air months ago that 4 i i I may never come to the front of the shelf to he purchased. 5 And I'm thinking from an enforcement standpoint, two 6 months down the road it's still there. 7 i zf we then effectively hhve everyone go back and 8 i pick it up, they will then begin to look at their stock to t i 9 aee what is to be returned. 10 CHAIRMAN BIT IMG TOHi CoHmisaioner Franklin, did If _ you want -- 12 [ jr COMMIES I ORES FRANKLXti: I wanted to follow up on 13 this timing question. Let's say we were to publish a 14 final ban in September. Row 180 days, it would be six 13 months into' the future, if I'm hearing you right -- 16 MR. HEKETHs Yes. 17 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN> The chain would be cleared T8 by then, whether we're talking about --; 19 MR. NEMETH: Six months. 20 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: Hell, we're talking about 21 next March, I'm counting. Is there any -- do you think i 22 that soma reasonable time December or like October? j 23 What I'm getting at is", do \ov think the chain would be r j 24 | clear of asbestos contair.ir.-_. material in 60 days from the j, 2c KMX 00844 I l i KMX 00845 38 I day we proposed the baa? Do yon rosily think it's going 2 to take the ull 180? 3 HR* NEMETH: Veil -- 4 COMMISSIONBit FRAHKlXMt Beeause I too was one 8 who wanted it ont back - 6 MB. NBMBTHi Tea, and Z understand the reasons 7 why, of course. Certainly from our standpoint, when a 8 final determination is made, we will make every effort to 9 notify our distributors and in turn all of their retailers to to be certain that the merchandise gets moved out? with 11 the publicity there has been they may or may not. 12 I don't know this for a fact, although frankly, 13 we have not had anyone come back to us at this point and 14 say, I've got asbestos in stock in view of everything 15 that's going on, take it back. 16 So the consumers are still buying the merchandise 17 beeause it's out there on the shelf, frankly. So we 18 would make certainly every effort, whatever the final 19 determination is, to get the distributors and the retailers 20 to get that merchandise out front on the shelves, to be 21 certain it is moved out. 22 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN; What is the sice Of your 23 company in terms of sales volume? . 24 MR. HEMETH: Well, about five million. 25 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: Okay. Is this your only 1 boni&esc, the Malting* of those kinds of -- . 39 ; ii 2 ME. WERHTH Mail, powder point sundries predomi 3 nately, powder end past* paint sundries, all types of 4 patching and resurfacing type matoriels. r. j 5 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: Let tte ack it another i i 6 way. Is the kind of products that ve*re talking about here, tf 7 we'we identified patohing compounds, is that, the major part 8 of your business? i 0 MR. KBKKTB: . Ho, the ones that you're identifying I !G here now would be about 25 percent. i- It COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: Okay. Are you a public . 12 company? , !' ; t. 13 MR.NEMETH: Yen. 14 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: I have do further ques 15 tions , thank you. 16 CHAIRMAN BYIHGTON: Commissioner Pittle. 17 COMMISSIONER PITTLE: Yes. Khen you said that 18 asbestos containing products were etill on the market, 19 do you have any feel for what percentage of the market 20 today on the retail shelves contains asbestos containing 21 products? 22 1R. NEMETH: I5m -- KMX 00846 < | t 23 COMMISSIONER PITTLE: Could you pull one out of 24 th air? 23 MF.. KEWET II: ^cir.ld be difficult to aey. 40 t When I made the comment even earlier about-the time element, 2 I was making a general statement because X don't know how 3 many other manufacturers are out there who have, in fact, 4 converted or not converted to non asbestos. 5 /COMMISSIONER TITTLE: Are you one of the five or 6 one of the 95? 7 HR. NEMETH: Oh, I'm sure we're one of the 95. 8 COMMISSIONER PITTLEi Okay, I jurt -- 9 MR,NEMETH: I'm certain we are, in view of my 10 predecessor. 11 COMMISSIONER PITTLEi Do you mind -- can you tell 12 us what you used as a substitute? 13 MR. NEMETH: Nell, calcium carbonates would be 14 one, types of clay would be another. 15 COMMISSIONER PITTLS: They're not fibers then, in 16 that sense, 17 MR.NEMETH: I certainly hope not. 18 COMMISSIONER PXTTZ.E: Okay, have you -- 19 MR. NEMETH: I -- KMX 00847 20 COMMISSIONER PITTLE: -- tested? 21 MR. NEMETH: No, we're in the process of going 22 into further detail on this, but again it's a time consuming 23 thing, and to the best of our knowledge at this point they 24 are not 25 COMMISSIONER PITTLE: Do you plan to do any kind 41 1 of testing such as either an optical scan or -2 MR. HEMSTK: Yes. 3 COMKX3SXONBF. PJTI'LBj, Back in the days when you 4 .t Aid use asbestos, what percentage, by -weight, roughly, 5 was the asbestos in the final product? - 6 NR. NEMBYE: Veil, in the joint eemenhsj probably I 7 a little le.sn than five percent. 8 r | I . COMMISSIONER PITYLB: Between four and five? S NR. NEMETH: Yes, between four and five percent. 1C Now, that's an off the top of ay head judgment, somewhere 11 in that range. Spackling compounds as such would never have 12 had asbestos as an obvious part of the formulation, however, 13 that's a little side element there that we have never put \ 14 f asbestos as such into spackling compounds. But -- 15 COMMISSIONER PITTIiE: That must have been a 16 generic term that's -- 17 MR.. NEMETH; Nell, no, this is part of that talc j IS <-- -- ! ; !9 COMMISSIONER PITTEB: Oh KMX 00848 20 MR, NEMETH: -- process 21 t COMMISSIONER PITTIiE: Oh, did you use talc? 22 KR. HEHET3: chyea. Hot in the joint cement but ii 23 fi i.n spackling compounds. t 24 COMMISSION PIT^X; Da you still us talc or is 13 t:.-1 --- 42 .HR. BBMSTBs YSS. . 2 COMMXSSXOMBR PITTlRi The termalltic (ph) count? 3 MR. MRMBTBi Bo longer, no. 4 COHMX88XORBR PITTLli Ok, but you did? 5 MR. BSMITHt To, earlier, yes. All that went 6 out the window us of April. 7 COMMXSSXOMBR PXTtXS Oh, X see, in April -- a MR. MEMBTBi When the television stations and 9 everybody, end our distributors, end everybody, began to ealling, end that was ths first we'd heard of it. ii COMMXSSXOMBR FXTTX.8* X completely agree with 12 you, the regulation through the press is probably not 13 fair when there's not a ohence to evaluate all of the 14 evidence. 15 MR. MBMBTHt Yes. KMX 00849 16 COMMXSSXOMBR PXTTXiSi It's just something -- 17 MR. mbmbTHi Nevertheless, at that point -- 18 COMMISSIONER FITTLIt Xt works both ways. 19 MR. MBMKTBt of course it does, and at that point 20 we dropped everything, which when X say that, when you do 21 -- when you think you're on schedule, and then all of 22 a sudden from that point on everything becomes a crash 23 program, why some of these things we're still catching 24 up on. 25 COMMISSIONER PITTLE: We're aware of that, it's 4 5 6 7 8 8 10 1.1 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 KMX 00850 43 something I think wo 4II suffer with. Going back to the testing .whether you use the optie&l or the electron micro-* ' soope, you don't hart that equipment in youf own -- j 1 > MR. NEKE7H1 Rtr. tfe've been seeding the material out. We've had son* Materials out to independent testing laboratories to give ns reports on. and wa will bo doing ore of this. COMMISSIONER PXTTLE: Is that very expensive, that . type of-- do you feel was that a $5,000 test, was that a } f) j MR. NEMETH: Oh. no., no. COMMISSIONER PITTLE: -- a $50,000.00 test. MR.NEMETH: No, it wouldn't be that expensive. I don't have an exact dollar figure, but it wouldn't be in that range where we would be -- COMMISSIONER PITTLE: Less than a thousand. MR. NEMETH: Less inclined to do it, yes. I would say it would be less than $1,000.00. COMMISSIONER PXTTLE: Less than a thousand. That's to determine any fiber content of -- MR. NEMETH: Yes, there may be some people in the room that could answer that better than I can. I don't know. COMMISSIONER PITT".:;: Does the -- your testing will just be to determine vrthere's any fiber as { I 44 I 1 !I opposed to what the toxicological effects of any lingering 2 dust would be on - 3 NR. NNNSTHt Toe, at this point it would be 4 banioally on the fiber became as a snail manufacturer, S ve really rely rather heaTily on our raw material suppliers, 6 in terns of testing data. 7 COMMISSIONER PimSi And whan you depend on then e do you ask then for tests and say what have you done to 3 assure ne that I won't get taught for something that -- 10 HR. MBMBTHt Nell, you don't always get too straight It an answer on that type of thing, it's difficult even to get 12 material safety data sheets from sons of the raw material 13 suppliers. But we're accumulating a file over the time 14 period and when you ask enough you do get it. 13 COMMISSIONER PITTX,B< If you were to receive 16 back a large amount of asbestos containing products like 17 you nanufacture, like a year ago, two years ago, would 18 there be any way to recycle that or reuse it, or would 19 that be a total waste? 20 MR. NBMETKi It would be probably an additional 21 expense because we'd have to go through special precuationary 22 procedures, I assume, in dumping it, in large volume to 23 one location, if it came in. 24 Ip resume that scattered out the way it is 25 KMX 00851 45 1 around the country, our and everyone else's, the dumping 2 proceee would be minute in term* of the other asbestos 3 already in the environment. 4 But of course It all comes into one location/ 5 and it all goes to one dumping location, then I suppose 6 aoma type of special precautionary measures would have to 7 be taken. 8 COMMISSIONER PITTLEi So at this time your 9 company doesnft have any plans, any specific .plans, to 10 dispose of whatever might be returned from let's say a 11 distributor who says, no, I don't want it? 12 MR. NEMETH: Mo, we do not. We will -- we hope 13 that doesn't happen, but we have no specific plans because 14 ws don't know the amount Involved at this point. 15 COMMISSION PITTLE * Okay. 16 MR.NEMETH: And X suspect if it came to that, and 17 we had a warehouse full, we probably have to contact some 18 agency to determine exactly what procedures we should take. 19 COMMISSIONER PITTLE: Thank you, very much. 20 CHAIRMAN BYXNGTOK: Commissioner Kushner. 21 COMMISSIONER KUSKKERs I'd just like to follow 22 up s bit on the testing that you say is being done. This 23 testing is simply to satisfy yourself that there isn't any 24 asbestos in the now formulations? 25 KMX 00852 j: ' f 46 ! HR. HBMETBi Exactly. 2 COMMISSIONER XU8HNER: And what you look for 3 are whatr fibrous materials, is that th -- 4 MR. NEMETHt Yes. 5 COMMISSZOHBR KDSBNERx Z guess it would be 6 interesting to ae to know what somebody -- what kind of a 7 definition the laboratory has of a fibrous material, what 6 constitutes a fibrous material. I wonder if you could get 9 that information for us from your testing laboratory. 10 HR. NEMETHt Certainly. 11 COMMISSIONER KOSHNBR: Once you had decided 12 on an alternative formulation, to your product, did you 13 encounter any difficulty in getting the materials? 14 MR. NEMETHt No, we -- 15 COMMISSIONER KUSHNBR: In what quantities you 16 needed. 17 MR. NEMETH * No, we have not had any difficulty 18 in getting the raw materials. The hard part, wa'ra 19 trying to get all the characteristics to perform as the 20 gentleman before me indicated, the testing procedure to 21 get all the same or similar characteristics of the finished 22 product. 23 We went through a number of them, of course, 24 but on those we were working with now, we have no diffi 25 culty in getting the raw materials. KMX 00853 47 1 COMMISSIONER XUSHNSRt It was my understanding 2 it was a fibrous nature of esbestos that imparted the 3 desirable property, and yet now you are apparently being 4 able to forsulato alternatives that don't have- fibrous 5 materials, and I'm -- 6 NR. NEMETH* Well -- 7 COMMISSIONER KDSHNBRi That allegedly don't have 8 fibrous materials, and X'at interested in knowing what 9 the -- 10 MR.NEMETH: Tea, I've made a note of that and n we'll certainly -- 12 COMMISSIONER KOSHNKR: -- just what you really 13 mean by non fibrous. 14 HR. NEMETH: Well, what we mean by non fibrous. 15 This is a big debate -- 16 COMMISSIONER XUSHM2R: Well your testing company. 17 MR. NEMETH: Yes. KMX 00854 18 COMMISSIONER KUSHNBRt Yes. 19 CHAIRMAN BYXNGTOMt Would you also address your 20 self to a couple of similar questions we asked Mr. Bush 21 from U. S. Gypsum, in addition to those Commissioner Pittie 22 has already raised, and that would be has there been an 23 effect on the cost in of this reformulation, and 24 if it leaves you --. now, if you know what that's translated 25 to in terms of retail, ws*-c app.t acicfcc knowing that. 48 1 But we would like to know what kind of impact, 2 if any, there haB been, in terns of cost, and secondly, in 3 terns of labor in the application of the compound, in 4 other words, is the compound more difficult to use or 5 more time consuming to use, et oetera, and therefore 6 maybe a more labor intensive product than the prior 7 product was. 8 MR. NEMETH< Nell, from our standpoint, because the bulk of our merchandise is in small packages, and 10 goes to the consumer -- in other words, the bulk of our 11 merchandise is sold through retail outlets, if the average 12 do-it-yourselfer is the type of do-it-yourselfer that I 13 am, he would not probably notice the difference because 14 he is not using it frequently enough. 15 CHAIRMEN BYINGTONI Correct. KMX 00855 16 MR. NEMETHi To really notice the difference and 17 when he's doing it himself five minutes or 10 minutes 18 more or less wouldn't make that much difference. So 19 we don't have that type of contractor experience. 20 CHAIRMAN BYXNGTON: I think that that's true, 21 and X think that's what Mr. Bush pointed out, that the 22 one or two times in my life that I might ever try it, I 23 wouldn't have anything to compare it to, so I -- 24 MR. NEMETH: Yes. 25 CHAIRMAN BYINGTON: -- wouldn't know if it took <9 1 longer or ehoi'ter> but. if: T vac doing it Bry day, then I 2 might. 3 But you indicated a possible separation point 4 between consumer end industrial, but yo-u don't sell at 5 the industrial level -- 6 NR. N2H8TH: he ~ 7 CHAIRMAN fiYiuGMRi -- ever 25 pound bag, and 8 you -- 0 KX. MBMSTH: Yf&ll, we have it available, and of 10 course through our distribution channels, some of the 25 It pound size and seme of the five gallon size and pre-mix 12 might very veil end up with a contractor, not ea a direct 13 sale basis,- but through our distributors, so that's cer t4 tainly possible. 15 CHAIRMAN BYINGTOKs But isn't it true that 16 through that same distributor, any consumer could go in 17 and buy that 25 pound bag, or five pound container? 18 HR. NEMETHi Tes, he certainly could, he certainly 19 could. 20 CHAIRMAN BYIEGTOHr rive gallon container. 21 MR.NBM5TH: Yes, I only brought the matter .up 22 because of the comment in the Federal Register --- 23 chairman EYiHGio ` . Correct. KMX 00856 24 MR. ISEKETH: -- ef&cct that just labelling 23 along should not be suffioiunt, and yet it' in fact the 50 contractor is going to be allowed to continue to buy asbes tos containing products* then it scans to n unfair to pat a harden on that retailer to put bin in the category of a druggist and bars to get signatures on where this material is going to be used. And even then yon can't be sore because the contractor using it in new construction nay hare a bag left over that he gives to a workman, and the ninute the workman takes it hone he's a consumer, do we're right back to where do we draw the line* and if the eonsowars know that this is for Industrial or couneraial use only, and it's narked that it's an asbestos product, then that should become his problem, Z think, or it should be a total baa. Z certainly don't throw that out as ny recom mendation -- - now -- CHAIRMAN BYXMGTOH: Which is where we are right MR. MBMETHs Yes. CHAIRMAN BYXNGTG&* -- which is what the total ban is. MR. NEMETH: Yas . KMX 00857 CHAIRMAN BYIHGTON: Do you have any idea of what percent of your sales are at the 25 pound bag, at the five gallon level? * , .. KMX 00858 51 1 IUU NBMBTH* Z couldn't give you an exact per 2 centage figure, but they're swell. They're snail. 3 The bulk of our buslaoss is is the small package, the 4 gallon sixes, the five pound sires. 5 CHAIRMAN BYZMdTOKt be you label your product now 6 as being asbestos free, or non asbestos, in other words do 7 you say so oa the paoknge? 8 M2. MSMSTBt He bate on one or two products, we 9 are more them anything just dropping the asbestos warnings 10 that me previously bad on the packaging. 11 COMMISSIONER NUkKLXBi had having nothing, in 12 other vords, no warning at all. 13 MR. NEMETHt Tea. Rone of then say non asbestos 14 because we began to promote those While we still had -- 15 we're still making both, and so we were offering a dif 16 ferentiation . 17 But as we go away from it we probably will just 18 drop the asbestos warning, and on the assumption that the 19 baa will, of course, take effect. Zt really won't make any 20 difference as long as -- because they all will. 21 COMMISSIONER BTIHGTONt Mould you be a little 22 more specific for our staff who have asked that in terms 23 of cleaning out the marketplace, at whatever time the ban 24 takes effect, and we'll leave that -- you've asked us to 25 reconsider and we did point out.that we would take a look 52 1 At that. 2 But lot's assume that tba day arrives the baa 3 takes effect, and avea If ve aisaae for the aoaaat it was 4 a staggered basis, aad it took 30 days from aanuf&cturt, 5 aad X number of days, 90, 120, whatever, 180 as you sug6 9sated, at the retail local, at that point in tine, whatever 7 it is, what would then really happen to that which is 8 really out there? 9 Would you have it reoalled, or would you reimburse 10 and have then dispose of it locally, how would you pro 11 ceed? 12 ME. WBMKTHt Bow would X like to proceed? Or -- 13 CHAXftHhW BYIBGTOHt Wow -- what would you like to . 14 see happen? 15 MB. MEMBTHt X would just like to suggest that 16 everybody throw away what the^ have left in stock. 17 CBAXRMAM BYINGTON: Wake care of disposal at the 18 local level -- 19 H&. MEMSTHi Exactly. KMX 00859 20 CBAXRMAM BYXNGTON> -- in smaller amounts. 21 MR.MBMBTHt Exactly, because -- 22 CBAXRMAM BTIHGTOH: Then would you reimburse, 23 or would you have to reimburse, or would you be ~ 24 MR.HEMBTH* That would be a very ticklish prob 25 lem. X don't suppose that the manufacturer is any more at 53 \ fault than the retail c.r or the dirtribu ';.cr. It's a diffi 2 cult gaestion ts ta^Br. I kaow what I vould like Co see 3 happen., again,bet. X svrpc.EC market situations would dictate. 4 5 do? 6 CHAIRMAN fcl I)!Gt.G Also what your competitors * HR.NEMETH: Probably. 7 CHAIRMAN FRANKLIN: But under CPSA there is S not the Sane kind -- 9 - KMX 00860 CBAIRNAH BTlNGTOMx No. 10 CHAIRMAN FKAKXLIN:.of repurchase obligation 11 and -- 12 MR. NEMETHt Yes, I understand that, as a natter 13 of fact that was the point I was trying to sake, and I 14 hoped that the ban would go forward on that basis, because 15 then at least it becomes a negotiable situation between 16 the distributor or retailer and the manufacturer. 17 CHAIRMAN FRANKLIN: I've got two more. 18 CHAIRMAN BYINGTON: Go ahead. Commissioner Franklin. 19 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: Just to reiterate some 20 thing that I really air. very interested in, and it was 21 mentioned by the chairser.: briefly here, and that is if 22 you do hevo any informc!*./-.?*., v.hEfc vould be helpful to us 23 with respect to hox> e. c-- ' : used your reformulation, 24 whether he likes it or doce-:t Tt like it, it works bettor, verbs worse or whaterc-r - X tbiufc vsrv-.,is-oertast 54 I intonation ton us. 2 Along ttoM linns t'd Ilka to ask yon -- 3 CHAIRMAN IIIlOtMi Bsonsa no* CO old X say some 4 thing? X think what both ana looking for is that yon 5 do# whloh nnlika gypsan, probably hava a closer retail 6 relationship or a eonanner relationship beoaose of the 7 aatnre of yonr product, and therefore possibly som of your 8 distributors nay hare received complaints - 9 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN t Or nay have soae idea -- 10 CHAIRMAN BYXN6Y0Ni -- or written you. 11 COMMX8SXOHBR PRAMKLXHi -- about the efficacy, if 12 you will -- . 13 CHAIRMAN BYIHGTOMt Right. 14 COMMISSIONER FRANKLINi -- of the new products. 15 MR. KBMBTHi The problem is since we just -- well, 16 X can -- we discontinued everything as of May 1st, so 17 soae of the things still going out since May 1st - 18 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: Yes. 19 MR.NEMETH: -- were still of the old type. On 20 two of the products, one in the powder joint cement# that 21 was discontinued and switched to non asbestos last August, 22 * r* the gallon sise of pre-mix joint cement has been on the 23 market since December. 24 And we have had no adverse comments on either of 25 those two products KMX 00861 Y.M . 4*`. _ 1 CHAIRMAN BYXViGSCh: Ok&y . $5 > t J z COHHJSSlC^Er PRAU''5-Iv'j I hat* a further question I * 3 here, and X'fi like year rearricj. to thn s tataiiant that's <I | %f 4 is oar proposal ban. 1 c*jt boc, *fo? purposes of this | 5 assessaont, tbs Connie*ion considered the use of.patching | ~ i6 compounds by & coosuBri for six hours s day. four times a | 7 ,\ year, to be high yet reasonably foreseeable yearly exposure. "j 9 r.' that? Do you think wa *r in the right ballpark with 10 MR. RRMETBt X think that it's high. . If COKHISSIOBSR FRAKSDIVt You think it's high. 12 MR. HMBTE> Yes, but -- 13 COMMISSIOHSR PRA8KZ.XM < What do you think it 14 should be? I i j 15 MR. H2KBTBi I*ns probably in the aaae position 16 that you're in in trying to sake that evaluation. It's 17 high but it's -- I don't vast to say it's unreasonable 18 because X think it is high, but to try to put a lower 19 figure on it, again X would just be guessing, really. 20 CEAIRKRK BYXHGT'OM: Your lower figure wouldn't be 21 any more defensible than that position, is that what you're 22 saying? 23 HE. M3KE"Hs Thruright. KMX 00862 24 COMHISSXOESE FRf.rz Do you think that your 25 Point ?i' view in what you have dons with r&speot to your I 56 1 voluntary rafornnlation of thin product is similar to what 2 othar businesses, of couperable aisc that mat* this product, 3 have dona? 4 HR. NBHBTHt Difficult to answer. I -- we don't 5 really fraternise with our competition too much, and -- 6 COMMISSIONER FRAMXLlitt Well, I understand. 7 NR. RSKBtBt Tee. 8 COMMISSIONER PRAMbXMi Why '-you are not. 9 MR. HBMBTBs So it's difficult for ne to say 10 that, other than Chat Z night observe in the marketplace, 11 and there are other small manufacturers around. And when 12 Z was making some of these comments I was talking about all 13 of us really as a whole, not necessarily what our specific 14 position might he in terms of the turnover and what have i 15 you. KMX 00863 16 More difficult for the small ones to reformulate 17 and to switch over. Z think in talking to one or two 18 people just casually, they thought this whole thing would 19 blow over andgo away, so there may be a few who have not 20 reformulated, and that's just a guess on my part. I 21 really wouldn't know that for a fact. i j 22 But x know that the thought was, oh, well, you 23 know, it's never really going to happen. . 24 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN* But in other words, in . 25 your comments, particularly as they relate to the effective 57 { t <3.at of this regulation, you ffbal that you ware speaking, .2 i at least sore or lass, for other fcnr.il atnufaetnrars. HR. KEM5T.E: Tea. 4 COKMISGICZJSa FRktfKLIMi Okay. 5 CBAIRMAS BVZMGTOBi Commissioner Pittle, you have 6 one bora7 7 COMMISSIOVER PITTLB* Z was curious by the fact 3 that you have, and I'd just like to know what your thinking 9 '/ ' " is, why you dropped the asbestos warning. I understand 10 why you dropped iff it doesn't contain it, why you didn't 11 take the next step and say, this doesn't contain asbestos. 12 And that way it would be, you know, would grab tho consumer's 13 attention -- 14 HR. H3M3THJ Well -- KMX 00864 15 COMMISSIONER PITTLE -- to compete against all 16 the other products in the market containing asbestos. 17 MR.HKHETHt Me have pot that on a few products, 18 but in riew off the fact that we the remaining products 19 that we got out of on asbestos were as recently as April, 20 we anticipate that ve'rs very, very close at this point to 21 L a complete, non asbestos situation, so that everybody is 22 going to be in the saieo LrT.l-nrfc. 23 COMMISSIONER Pit'. : All right, in other words -t: 25 .!! do you believe that it's to be that sees before you cocl&n'i fcu-* actestos containing products in tha marketr 58 I X mu, do you predict that** goiag to be, I mean, just 2 naturally in six months ox a year* 3 MR. MSMBTBt X* lorry. X don't understand. 4 COMKX88XOMB& BXTTX.li The way I'm understanding 5 it, it* going to take quit* a while for the -- sons number 6 of swathe, in the two figuree that - 7 MR. RBMBTHt Tee. 8 C0MMX88X0BBR PZTTLKt Two figures for the month 9 to somehow make sure there are no longer any -- if the 10 regulation wasn't in existence hut just naturally were to 11 take place -- 12 MR. HKMBTHs Yes. 13 COMMXSSXOMBR PITTtBj -- it would take 24 months. 14 And it would seem to me if you had a product that didn't 15 have this undesirable characteristic that you'd want to 16 advertise that and push it, to reach out and grab the 17 consumer's attention and try to steer them toward your 18 product. 19 MR. MBMBTHs Yes, we have done that on some spe 20 cific products, and especially one or two brand new 21 products that we formulated from the start as being non 22 asbestos. On those we did play up the non asbestos 23 feature quite heavily. KMX 00865 24 But only on those, and X guess, again, from a 25 practical,economic standpoint, our type of packaging is 59 1 on automated equipment with overwrap type packaging,.which 2 is the aasiaet way, z guoss, to describe it would be the 3 type of packaging that goes on a cracker box. Every box 4 ia individually wrapped, and it gets very costly to be 5 changing labels, directlone, which we've had to go through 6 quite a bit of this in recent months, recent years, as 7 various regulations have come out. 8 Zt gets very costly to completely scrap labels, 9 we buy then in enornous quantity, and to throw them out ' 10 and redo the piece and reprint when we see this nan asbestos 1! thing taking shape the way it is any way, probably an 12 economic consideration as much as anything else. 13 We've evaluated that, and on those where we felt 14 it would be advantageous to eay non asbostos, we did it. 15 On ethers where it didn't make any difference because the 16 whole thing was going that way shortly any way, and it was 17 a standard in tha line, we just didn't do it because in 18 six months it would be redundant to say non asbestos, we 19 assume,.or 90 days, or whenever, it will be redundant to say 20 non asbeatos. ' 21 COMMISSIONER PITTLB* I 8e. It seemed to me if f 22 you were going to have spe.es>, that you had asbestos warning, 23 and when you redid your labels, to take that out, but 24 that's, a decision x wasn't part of-- 25 MR. NEMETH: YSS . KMX 00866 60 1 COMMXSSXORBR PXTTLBi -- and X don't know all tha 2 paraMtuit Bat yon could hm just stuck in there no as- 3 bastes. 4 And X*n jest wondaring, there is not possibly 5 products that you'd be competing with yourself in terns of 6 one produot you had out, would hare asbestos in it and 7 another one that wouldn't. 8 MR. HXMBTHi Well, only in an overlap situation 9 where -- TO COMMISSIONER PITTLE: overlap. 11 MR. BEMBTHt Tea, only where we had discontinued 12 and still had sons of the old la stock. 13 COMMISSIONER PITTLB: X see. Okay. 14 CHAIRMAN BYXNGTOM: thank yon very nuch, sir, we 15 really appreciate your coning down. And if you could, the 16 bits of indorsation that we were asking, if you'd get us, 17 and supply that. 18 MR.KBMETB: X will oertainly try to. 19 CBAXRHAB BYXNGTON: Thank you, very such. 20 COMMISSIONER PRABXLXB: May X sake a remark? 21 CBAXRHAB BYXNGTONs Yes. 22 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: X just wanted to add ny 23 thanks to your coning. X think there are a couple of 24 points of view we don't typicall get enough of in the regula 25 tory decision naking process, and one of them is small KMX 00867 61 1 business. 2 And 1 appreciate your coning end taking the time 3 and making your viev?- known. The other is consumers. 4 HR. KEKEYR: Snail consumers don't cone either. 5 COMMIESXOBER rRAMKhlSi Yes, snail consnaara - 6 don't eons either, I quite agree. 7 * 8 CBAIRHAR BTIMGTOKi The next presentation will be nede by Mr. Rhodes of the Union Carbide Corporation, 9 end it's ny understanding that Mr* Rhodes has asked that 10 of hie 30 minutes he would like to sake part of his presen IT tation now and part of your presentation later? 12 MR. RHODESi That's correct. 13 CHAIRHAR BTIKGTON: Okay, go ahead and proceed. 14 MR. RHODES: Z have 15 copies, but I would like 15 to request that they be given to the ' Commissioners and 16 staff only until I've completed sty presentation. Zs that 17 i v / okay? t8 KMX 00868 CEAIRMAH BTIHGTOa: Fine. 19 You're concerned -- you're saying that the 20 distribution of this thing relates to, the press can't have 21 copies while you're going through it? 22 KR. RHODES: T vc uld prefer that I be allowed 22 to complete ay present-:--.-3>acro it be made generally 2 available. 25 CHAIRKRy BYZ!?C'-ff;.: :* Vail, Z think -- 62 1 MR. RHOD881 Zt splits into two parts. I'd Ills 2 to present it before it's released to tha prasa. Is that a 3 problem with youT 4 CHATEMAM BXIMGTOli Mall, X think they ought to 5 hays tha opportunity to 90 through it tha saaa tins that 6 oa'ra going through it* X naan, this is a public seating 7 and you're going to Sake a public statanent, and you know, 8 X think it would ba appropriate if they ware given at least 9 a copy of it to follow along as you're going through it, to yes. 11 MR.RHODESt Tea. 12 COMMISSIONER PXTTZ.Es Thera say be people who 13 want to write questions up at tha and of the presentation, 14 and it's kind of hard to follow, a thick doeusent like this, 15 orderly. . 16 CHAIRMAN BTXNGTOBt Why don't you sake some sore 17 for later. 18 MR.RHODB81 X didn't saaa it to be all that 19 oosplioatad. 20 Okay, let so begin by introducing sysalf. 21 My nasa is Harrison B. Rhodes, and X's speaking on behalf 22 of Dnion Carbide Corporation where X hold the position of 23 technology manager in the "Calidria" Asbestos Department. 24 My education is in the field of chemical engineer 25 ing where Z hold a degree of Doctor of Science from KMX 00869 63 Co Iambi a University. She past four years ny assignment hafl beae in the erart of nsbastes health and regulatory Batters, and has also ircludud research on monitoring tech , ' niqucs. 1 an also currently serving .the Asbestos In .4 foraation Association, North America, as chairman of the standards and technical committee. Onion Carbide Corpora tion has baan actively engaged since 1963 in the mining and milling of asbestos for facilities in Central Califor nia. The asbestos fiber produced is marked throughout the United States and in many foreign countries. One of the principal applications for asbestos in this country has been in tape-joint compounds. We do not ourselves manufacture such compounds, however,nor do we manufacture any other asbestos contain ing finished products. As a commissioners are well aware, there has been a tremendous flood of paper generated in relation to the asbestos regulatory matters under con sideration here. KMX 00870 Ws beliova that civoral crucial issues have been lost in the flood, an-i- o-zld like to take the oppor tunity today to address t!. 1 iesnea as follows. First.- n look at ell ox the commercial and concuner exposure date available today, including soma I 64 1 reeeat consumer tests, end also some OSHA compliance in 2 spection results. An examination of the risk estimation 3 model proposed by Dr. Aayerd of the CP8C staff in 4 terms of actual eons timer exposure. 5 Third, a discuseiou of the elimination for reduc 6 tion of unreasonable risk of injury as required by the 7 statute in the absolute aero risk regulatory approach that 8 is advocated by the petitioners. 9 Fourth, the direction of your attention to the 10 fact that asbestos, of one type or another, is present 11 throughout the air, water, and earth of this planet, and 12 the overwhelming consequences of a ban of ubiquitous 13 material such as this without a precise definition of what 14 is banned, a well specified, analytical procedure, at 15 some allowable levels other than sero. 16 Fifth, a presentation of a suggested alternative 17 approach to protect the consumer from unreasonable risk of 18 injuries, which is more realistic, more workable, and more 19 enforceable in the proposed total ban. 20 And this talk splits very nicely into the techni 21 r cal areas and a discussion of the regulatory problems. 22 Z will address for the first portion the technical matters 23 and present the infornation. KMX 00871 24 should be emphasised that this discussion will 25 deal directly with and presented in terms of tape-joint 65 1 compounds. Spackling conpoun.il3 era similar in composition 2 and use, but are applied J.n co such smaller amount3 that 3 ! the potential Cor significant dxposr.ra is virtually non 4 existent. 5 Emberising hits are outside the field of our 6 expertise^, and will not be considered. Gypsum wall board 7 was developed about 1886f 1900. Xt did not oome into wide 6 9 usage until World War IX when the seed for houses and.other t buildings unde this quicker, less oomplsx construction TC method very popular. 11 t I! Osage has grown substantially since that time 12 and dry wall construction is now used in the majority of 13 residential and a wide variety of commercial and public 14 buildings. 15 Initially, ordinary plaster was used to embed 16 and cover the tape to make the joint between the boards, 17 but in the mid-forties specially formulated dry mlatures, 18 with caseside as the binder introduced. 19 These mixtures typically contained 10 to 15 20 percent asbestos. We have been told that the plaster at 21 f that time also contained asbestos. And let me digress for 22 just a moment at this pei:at. There seems to be a mis 23 understanding that tbs is used as a binder in 24 tape joints . KMX 00872 2Z The hinder is a c.icing, a glne, & vinyl acetate, i- >< * I 66 1 something of that nature, tihich ukai itaalf hard* The 2 aabastoa doaa not function aa a binder. 3 To eontinna, raady nix* that la wet compounds or 4 mad, wars introduced in the mid-lftles# vara in broad, 5 9enaral osa by I960* Tha aabeetos content of mads in 6 general was high until about 1970, dropped during tha save: 7 ties to approximately tha range of two to seven percent. 8 Tape joint compounds containing asbestos are 9 thus not new but have been in widespread use for 30 to 35 10 years, and Z certainly wouldn't quarrel with the previous 11 speaker, who said 50 years. 12 Over the first 15 years of this period, the main 13 material used was provided dry and contained relatively 14 high levels of asbestos, that is 10 to 15 percent. The 15 Commission's consultants, A. T. Carney, Incorporated, 16 estimates that today's annual value of shipments of 17 patching compounds is $80 million. 18 In an average price of 4.50 par can, this is 19 equivalent to about 18 million cans. Tha formulations we 20 have seen cost about 20 to 30 cents more per can for raw 21 materials to replace asbestos, so that the added burden 22 just to cover raw materials cost is about four and a half 23 million dollars annually. KMX 00873 24 This cost, plus any percentage mark ups used, 25 would be added to the cost of the structure and would KMX 00874 67 I 1 z carry the normal finance chargee oyer tbe lifs of th-a . ii i i indebtedness. 3 ii . i It should also be noted that about 10,000 tone per i 4 year of asbestos, with e product value of about one million S! I dollars, vero used in this application prior to the decline I 6 I i that has resulted from actions by a variety of governmental 7 agencies. 8 i i We believe that the total five and a half million j 9 dollars annually represents a reasonably reliable, minimus I 10 estimate of the direct, economic effects of the replacement ! 11 of asbestos and tape joint compounds. I 12 t ' The added effects ef the poor performance of many \ 13 . . of the asbestos free muds has not been considered hare. 14 j la the assessment of the risk that needs to be related to 15 this cost burden, it is important to have a reliable esti 16 mate of the level of consumer exposure. 17 All of the available information on exposure has 18 been assembled and is documented in and discussed in 19 detail in an appesdir to this presentation, which will be 20 . submitted prior to the august 29th, 1977 deadline for 21 written comments. 22 Only the feer results will be summarised here. 22 The data presented arc co.-tcir-od in five reports. First, 24 tfce tests conducted by Soil oi &2 at one location in ( j Kor ?cr2-i City. This ic Che cute cited by the ostitionors. 68 1 Second, a survey of t variety of sanding condi 2 tions made by Rhodes and Xngalls and cited extensively 3 by the Asbestos information Association, north Aaerica, 4 in their response to the petition* . 5 Third, data from state an federal OSHA eonpliance 6 inspections compiled by Equitable Environmental Health, 7 Incorporated, as part of a study of asbestos exposure in 8 the construction industry. 9 Fourth# a report submitted to the Consumer Product 10 Safety Commission by Union Carbids Corporation on July 14th, 11 1977, covering consumer exposure during a typical speckling 12 and a moderate sised, dry wall installation operation. 13 And fifth, a study by Union Carbide Corporation, which has 14 just been finished, on another consumer installation of dry 15 wall in a large room, including the ceiling. 16 The results of this survey are summarised in 17 two figures you are now receiving. How, those are at 18 tached to the back of the report. I have these. Would 19 you like some additional ones or do you want to switch 20 to the back? 21 CHAIRMAN BVINGTONt That's okay. KMX 00875 22 MR. RHODES Figure 1 shows along the vertical 23 axis the airborne asbestos concentration. The fibers per if | 24 I cubic centimeter longer than five micrometers that occurred f 25 in the breeding sone of the operator, during the sanding 69 1 operation. 4rL\ | Usually nuxder of sacples wer* collected e.t j 3I each location ia a dark bar rb.oviag the range of concentre- l 4 tions found, with the atithaatic average of all samples 5 indicated by ^he arrov*.' 6 The date on the loft are those of Rohl, that were 7' cited ia support of the petition. `They were obtained in l 8 one test in Hew York City. Hot* that an exposure of 20 8 fibers per CC for .four days was used by Dr. Bayard in his 10 ^ projection to risk, to be discussed later, and the scale 11 on that chart rnns fron sero to 20, so the top line on ; 12 there is 20 fibers per cc. .. 13 i The next groupof results were obtained by Onion : U Carbide Carbide Corporation la a survey of comaercial 15 operations in eight different cities. Results rang from 16 .2 to three fibers per cd. 17 These fiber counts have been spot checked blind 18 by two other laboratories. The EEH and OSHA compliance 19 data are shown next, and they fall in just about the 20 saae range as the results of Union Carbide. 21 How, X sight interject, over towards the left 22 of that graft, Kinneapol:..r, '.Isnasota was an asbestos ; 23 free and and we're indio.vtiac several tenths of a fiber \ 2-: per cct wheel* ay or map r~t hi asbestos. But it does t" -* show up in the phese contrast sonitoriag procedure. 4 = : KMX 00876 70 1 )uid there's another on* about in the middle of 2 Denver, Colorado asbestos free. It's the same sort of 3 problem. Ve're not saying that those contain asbestos, 4 bat we're saying It yon ran it by the 08BA inspection 5 procedure, there are fibers in there which must be counted 6 as asbestos. 7 The eonsaner use date is shown over on the far 8 right. The first ease is for extensive speckling and the 9 installation of three panels of dry wall. The second is 10 for three walls and a celling in a large basement recrea 11 tion room. 12 The latter mud contained two -- 2.6 pnrcent 13 asbestos by weight on the dry bases. Exposures in these 14 tests were only 2/lOths to one fiber per cc longer than 15 five microns, which correspond roughly to the lower end 16 of the range found for conmut-- commercial use. 17 COMMISSIONER PXTTLB: Excuse me. The three panels 18 of dry wall you just referred to, is that -- 19 NR. RHODESt That's the one-- 00877 20 COMMISSIONER PITTbB: -- the study in the July 14th. 21 MR. RHODES: That's in the July 14th, and the 22 picture there installing it myself. There are two other 23 operations in tape joint installation that present the 24 possibility of exposure to free form asbestos fiber. 25 The addition of dry powder product water, and >t 71 1 the clean up after sanding. Data for these operations are 2 shown In figure 2. Here, in order to get the raw data on 3 the graph, it was necessary to run the scale from aero to 4 60 instead of aero to 20 as in the previous figure. 5 Otherwise the graph follows the sane format and 6 shows a very similar pattorm* The raw data ere far higher 7 than the USBA results, end the eonsumer values ere below 8 or in the lower end of the renge for commercial use. 3 Zt ie vary important to understand that all of to the eoBoeatretioas shown occurred during the active pur It suit of the pertieuler operation, sending, wet out, or clean 12 up. 13 These operations generally take piece for a t4 coderate portion of the day, with concentrations at much 15 lower valuos for the rest of the eight hour period. Bight 16 hoar tine waited, average exposures were calculated for 17 the two eonsumer installations, and the highest exposure 18 found was 2/lOths of a fiber per cc greater than five 19 microns for two days, while asbestos containing dust was 20 being generated. 21 One of your staff members. Dr. Stephen Bayard, 22 has developed a model to estimate the risk of respiratory 23 cancer from low level exposure to asbestos from taping 24 compounds This modern model is patterned on that pre 25 scribed in the paper by P.hod&s and Henderson, except that . KMX 00878 72 1 z Dr. Bayard Baa made an assumption that the affective dose la ewuiatift. 3 this shove a geometric Increase In risk into the 4 nodal. We gaestioa whether there is any basis for this 5 assunptioa, we do not foal this is an appropriate place 6 to debate the lasne. 7 Zt is of aora interest to use the modal, which is 8 heavily biased towards predicting a high risk, with the 9 eapoanrea jnst noted for eonsuaer ese. That is 2/10the of to a fiber par oe TWA for two days of operation. 11 Following Dr. Bayard's directions on page 3, part 12 C of the reference which va alto, for the highest tine 13 waited average, of 2/lQths fiber per ce for two days 14 foaad for oonsuaer applications, we obtain an annnal 15 exposure of .904 fibers per oe per day for one year. 16 A naan latest period to tenor of 621 years, and aero 17 deaths of asbestos indnoed cancer la the 40 year period 18 considered 19 If the period examined is extended to 100 years, 20 the number of deaths predicted would be .000003, which is 21 still far less than a single death. These risk estimates 22 are probably on the high side doe to the assnnptions used 23 in the nodel. KMX 00879 24 Since an exposure of .004 fibers per cc per 25 day is indistinguishable fros background, the values are . A.4 73 i 1 not unreasonable. 2 It 4e nlsr instructed tc point out that if we s i ii assume ar= exposure rii five fibers per ec for two full 4 eight hour days, vhiei is wall above the level found in 5 commercial use, the yearly rate becomes .1 fiber par ec. 6 This yields a median time to tenor of 212 1/2 years, and 7 an asbestos indueed cancer rate of *02 deaths. 8 He question whether these are the unreasonable 9 jr* risks referred to in the statute. How, at this point I 10 will skip to page 12, X believe it is, and cover the rest tl of the technical Watters. 12 Z would like to start by pointing out certain 13 practical aspects of enforcement of the ban as proposed 14 in the Federal Register, and I'm getting the impression IS from what's gone before the Commissioners may already be 16 well aware of this problem. 17 These particular questions were discussed at 18 great length, and unfortunately generally were not solved. 19 The recent meeting in Gathersburg, Maryland conducted by 20 the National Bureau of Standards,and since several of your 21 staff members were' there X "ill only touch upon them 22 briefly. S 23 Since the pressure--/.:its of the OSSA asbestos 24 regulations in 1972 thcr * : rcer. a Continued debate on KMX 00880 ! i 74 1 what is asbestos, what is an asbestos fiber* Asbestos, 2 when narrowly defined in a way that will satisfy the nost 3 Precise mineralolgiat, is ubiqmitous in the atmosphere. 4 Although generally it occurs at a very low, but not soro 5 concentrations 6 When the definition is broadened to include all 7 amphibole chips, which are longer than flue microns, and 8 haws a length to diameter ratio greater than three, you 9 will approach a condition aptly described by Or. Kaloola 10 boss of the 0* 8. Geological Surrey at the MBS neeting of 11 shutting down the face of the earth* 12 Particles of this type are everywhere, and would 13 contaminate any product containing a mineral. The *Ph 14 faced this problen in 1973 and in writing emission 15 standards for the spraying of asbestos containing products, 16 had decided to treat it by setting a one percent by weight 17 maaimum limit* ; 18 Their reasoning was as follows. The intent of 19 the one percent limit is to baa the use of materials 20 which contain significant quantities of asbestos but 21 allow the use of materials which would one, contain trace 22 amounts of asbestos which occur in numerous natural sub 23 stances ; and two, include vary small quantities of asbestos, 24 less than one percent added to enhance the material's 25 effectiveness. KMX 00881 " 75 In order fr;sr any action by the ComsiisBicn to be workable and enforcoabla, v believe it is absolutely es-* sential that you provide a dofinitior. of asbestos which states exactly what tirural species and what fora of these species ere included, and specify what particle dimensions constitute an asbestos fiber. The present definition of the proposal could be applied to rdcfc that covers Host of the surface of the earth, in addition, an analytical procedure of the levels of impurities that are acceptable, as measured by this procedure, must be specified. . Without these practical definitions, the ban is virtually universal and completely unworkable, and 1 will conclude this portion of my remarks there and 1*11 be happy to try to answer any questions in this area that you may have. ' CHAIRMAN BYIKGTCNi Are there any questions at this time or do you want to reserve questions. He's going to come back. MR. RHODESt x'u be here. CHAIRMAN BTIHGTOUi He'll stay the whole thing but he wants to reserve tlic ssooai part of his time for the end. COliHISSIOREr. question. I'd like to ask kin one KMX 00882 76 ! Jut to pick tip ob tbo top of page 6 of your 2 StatMMtf uid I'd just like to cheek into the reasoning 3 of how you ealeul&ted that# on page 9 and 10 of your July 4 14th submission vhen ygu vent into more detail about how 5 you arrived at that* you have an equation for tine wait 6 averaging vhioh essentially nultipliee the amount of tine 7 you epent in one procedure# and then the neasurenent. a MR. RHODESt Tea. 9 COMMISSIONER PXTTUti Tou added to that the 10 amount of tine spent during another procedure* cleaning up, ii and so on* and then you divided by 480* which is the equiva12 KMX 00883 13 MR. RHODES I TUB. 14 COMMISSIONER PXTTLBt And you cone out with a 15 number of .02 .-fibers per oubie eentimeter* which you felt 16 was greater than five aULerons. And X don't understand why 17 you used the nunber sero for the greatest portion of tine, 18 namely something on the order of 387 ninutes. 19 ", 1 * MR? PIT.TLEi wall, on that particular one the 20 man who was doing the sanding left the area and went into 21 work* and he has no exoosure other than background. 22 COMMISSIONER PITTLE: j understand that* but I mean, I 23 got that from the text of it, and the only thing is* if 24 someone were living in that house or were spending some 25 time beyond that, the implication of this is that if 77 ! somebody wore to work in the room muab longer, then you 2 would bm like a double or triple the exposure. 3 NR. RBODBSi There ere date there, presented 4 there, which indicate whet the exposures were after the S working period, in those rooms. They ere area date, there 6 is a complete surrey of data throughout the entire day in 7 three roost in the house, 8 COMMXSSXOBSR PXTTUSx X note that. 9 HR. RBODBSt Xt really would not make any to measureeble difference if you used 00S or 006 for that 11 remainder either. 12 &OMMXSBXOMBR PITTLEt Bell, X don't know what you 13 mean. Xs that what the measurements took place, if those 14 are the measurements - 15 MR. RBODBS* Measurements were taken. 16 COMMIESXOBBR PITTtEi And they were 005. X got 17 the impression -- 18 MR. RBODBSt Bait, I'm talking about after opera 19 tions - 20 COMMISSIONER PITTLB: Tea. KMX 00884 21 f MR. RHODES -- where dust 1b being generated. 22 There is a complete series of measurements for the entire 23 -- there were personal samples taken during the operation. 24 COMMISSIONER PXTTZ.E* Right. 25 r ! MR. RHODESt There were area samples in the rooms i S ! 78 I of th homo* throw rooas of fcka house, for tha full day. 2 Wow if yon vlik to rsealonlata it* aad acin? tho area* why 3 it's tot hard to do -- 4 CONKZ38XOMSR HtTUi So, Z -- 5 MR. RHODES* -- mod it will aaka vary littlo dif6 foroaoo. 7 COMMX8SXOMSK PITTbE* Sot that loada to a sort of 8 a statement ia yoor today's atatoaoat, saying that sight 9 hoar tiaa waitod aworago exposures war* ealoulatad ia two 10 consumer iastallatioaa, aad saylag that tha highaat exposure 11 was .25 eabio ooatiasrs. 12 MR. RHODES* For two days. 13 C0MKX86X0MBR PITTLRi For two days. 14 MR. RHODESi Too. 15 COMMX88XOMSR PITTLB. that is prsdioatad on tha 16 fast that yon'ra assoaiag, X aoaa, X don't know that tho 17 aoabax night tarn oat to bo just doabla. 18 MR. RHODB8i Mo, tha -- 19 COMMISSIONER PITTLBs Do yoa think that's in 20 significant? 21 MR. RHODESi It's not a nattar of thinking, yoa 22 can oalenlata it right from the aanbars -- . 23 COMMISSIONER PITTLBs Wall, I -- 24 MR. RHODES t * and see what tha diffex oncas 1 25 ara KMX 00885 . 79 1 COMMISSIONER PXTTI.E: .11 right-- ,, 2 HR. RHODESi Hov, let EC -- the 2/lOthss of A 3 fiber for two days occurrod at tha large, full room instal 4 lation. 5 coKKXsgzoiren nmtt tea. * 6 MR. RHODES t Ahd those ut calculated completely 7 for tha -- 8 COKMZSSXOtfSR PITTLEt Oh, for the untire -- oh. 9 MR* RHODESt -- entire day# with none of the back to ground. Mow, we had a point three in tha snail operation it which actually occurred whan there really wasn't any asbestos 12 being used per so, wasn't carrying' out the old dry wall and 13 preping the old plaster, to install the spackle. 14 X assure you i'n not playing any genes-- 15 COMMXSSXOHBR PITTLEt Vo, no, 1'a trying to under 16 stand . 17 MR. RHODES * Ve are -- 00886 18 COMMISSIONER PXTTX.&4 X'n looking at the -- I'll 19 have to read today's submission over nueh more carefully. 20 i 2! jj X'n responding t the sentence that you're talking about, >; i [ r- 22 | eight hour tine waited averages being .2, and I've looked c at July 14th and it has sight hour sessions in which you 2- s cone down to 102. Maybe thics's a slip of a typo there, L or that's a different figure -- KR. RHODES; I den*t guarantee that there isn't 80 1 bat z ware bop* tbara us't. 2 COttMZfBZOMfB PXTTUTi bad in the calculation of 3 tbo *02, la poor duly you ore Baying, by golly, the 4 parson vrn't tbara mad therefore bo wasn't exposed 5 aad tbo eubstitetloa la for a aoro la for the exposure to 6 tbo ooaoaaor or tbo porooo stribos me ao very heavily 7 dopoadoat oa what ho hoppoaa to bo dolag whoa ho flaishoa 8 olooalag p. 9 Zf b* leaves th* room, than the exposure goes 10 dowa, which lo aotural to that person. But we were more 11 laterostod la oosooslag, Zwould waat to road that as as- 12 ooasaoat of what the pooslbllltp of exposure Is If the 13 persoa stayed la tbo rooa loagor. 14 MB. BHODXSt The loforaotloa Is there. 15 COKHISSIOMER PXTTX.lt well, z -- KMX 00887 16 MB. BBODBSt tfo*ll look ot that if wo waat to 17 look -- aeo, you're talking -- you have a problem, and 18 If pou*ro applpiag aa 08BB formula, you're caleulatlag eight 19 hour TWX's of workers, because you waat to relate that 20 to the 08 BX oompliaaee data. 21 Xad you know, we're -- whore do you make your 22 adjustment? What X did was report everything, and the 23 information is there, and X think X am aorreet in saying 24 that those numbers, after the operations are so small that 25 when you would put them in there, even though you multiply KMX 00888 1 the* by a lot of boars, a lot of minutes, thoy ara very 24 low number*. H3&GZ ri^ hS. Hey X Kill pursue tills with you 4 after. 5 HK. RHODES Good, I'd be glad to. 6 CHAIRXA9 BTXMG70B> Fes, Commissioner Franklin. 7 COKKX8SXOKBR FE&KKLI>s X hear you questioning 6 our risk assessment, and it's not clear to an from your 9 statement exactly the magnitude of that. What I'd like 10 to do is ask you the some question and ask the gentleman II from Sondes, end get your reaction to it; 12 To this statement in our Federal Register notice 13 .says, for purposes of this assessment the Commission 14 considered the use of patching compounds by a consumer 15 for sis hours a day, four times a year, to be high, yet 16 reasonably foreseeable yearly exposure. 17 Horn, what do you think of that statement? 18 MR. RHODES * Well, the main point of the data IS that I presented ia that that's highly unlikely. 20 COMMISSIONER FRfi.EKI.XHt Too high, yes. 21 MR. RHODES: The- s'aabera that occur during the 22 actual operation ws.ro &cr.\:-4 .sro An the tenths to, I think 23 we had a one or -- one c ^carter or one and a half, 24 during the cleaa up o'psrct.los, in the largo operation. 25 Ar.d the total for th r.aa and hie wife to do all iii ! t > ! i i KMX 00889 82 1 of the sanding on a ntlMr ltrgt rtor eation room, lnolud~ 2 lag the ceiling* took something lees than two hours. 3 hod the exposera for the remaining six hours 4 wan -- z oas't toots It off the top of ny heed* but it 5 ves quite low. do that the nnafeore that were used la 6 that risk assessment* Z think* are grossly high. 7 coMHZddZons pauunobZdt mil right* now -- 8 Mh. MOOSSt based on our consumer inforuatlon 9 end commercial information. 10 C0NNZ88X0KKR PBhBMZHs Z understand what you're If saying about the six hour tine period when there was some 12 exposure* but what do you think about the assumption of 13 the four times a year type use? 14 Mi. RBODlSt Zn the installation of dry wall* you 15 tart off by btrying the tape-- now* if you're going to 16 use dry mis* you haws to mix up the dry mix. Z don't think 17 very May consumers use the dry nix for big jobs* they'll 18 use the pails. id You bury the tape* and then come back over it 20 with a single coat* end while it's still wet* and you 21 let that dry* and all of these muds shrink* so they -- 22 Z don't know whether you're aware of it or not* but the 23 hoards are grooved where you buck the boards together* 24 so there's a groove in there* a channel, that you're 25 filling with the tape and with the mud. KMX 00890 83 t So that the first step ic to fcnry the tap* and J 2 Cover it, end then you cqec beck through and a day later f 3 when it's dry or bar shrunk eenn , and put another coat a, j - 6 when that drias yes ce~ in and asnd, and follow it with 9 a third coat, and than yov. touch, up th third ooat with a 6 little aanding wh*rc yon ma1? have not cleared th* edges 7 properly. 8 So that in e installation of dry wall, according < .!t 9 to tha directions on the box, . .end according to the way the i 10 commercial operators run, you really have two days, in 11 which you're actually doing sanding and raising the dust 12 and cleaning up. . 13 So if you -- X think 1 would agree with Chairman 14 Byiagton that if you do that oaoe or twice, during a life 15 time, that's -- it's a reasonable estimate of how often V6 you're going to be involved with the thing. i i i I ti! t f n Bow often do you finish e room? 18 COMMISSIONER FRANKLINt So what you're saying is 16 that our assumption hero off four times a year that one 20 would be -- 2\ s i 22 | MR. RHODES: I think it's -- COMMISSIONER frrr::i-ik* -- would be going through 22 : some kind of -- 2> HR. RHODES: I think it's high. rACI COMMISSIONER FRAUitLIti': -- patching, would be too f \ i ii l (l | !f KMX 00891 84 1 MR* nOOMi YM. 2 Y'n talking primarily where yon'rt installing 3 a Cav panala of dry vail too. X 4on*t think even your 4 ataff believes that rwaning a two foot eraek with spaokling 5 eoaponnd ia going to ganarata any aignlfieaat amount of 6 aabaatoa. 7 comtxssxogtk rftjunax* Tea. 8 RR. kBODXSt X think thay aada a atatanant to that 9 effect, aithar in oaa of their briafing paekagaa or ia 10 tha yederal kagistar notioa. 11 CONKXSSXOXBR rRAWKX.Xni X have a eoupla worn 12 gnaationa hnt on anothar subject, if yon want to follow 13 thia p. 14 COKMXBBXOBBR XUSBVBBi X would lika to follow 15 thia up. 16 bo yon hawa any axplaaation for tha disorapanoy 17 hatwaan tha kohl data on anpoanra and yonr own? 18 MR. kBODSSt X anapaet poaaibly that thay wara 19 it waa taken in *74 thereabouts, that thay wara uaing 20 ona of tha high aabaatoa content nuds* Beyond that X -- 21 there not anongh infomation given in their discusaion 22 of it to ntke any kind of -- 23 CONMISSXOXS& KDSHNSRs What would have bean tha 24 level of aabaatoa contained in tha nateriala that you 25 used or that are cited by and large in the other -- I 00892 85 1 NS. Biootti Tky're probably - 2 COMMISSIONS* KBflSMSBt -- iMUBOSf bor. 3 XI. IMDUi the om Mktrial tht V* know what 4 wan ia wo had tho formulation fort the manufacturer 5 uppUaS that. 6 coMKifsxosnt scams*. Yea. 7 Hit. BOONSt Yhat woo 8*8 poroomt, cm a dry baaia. 8 comtxssiowss kbshhsr. too. / 8 MS. SBOOUi Tho first material, if you'll pardon 10 tba eapression, waa tho V. I. Oypaua that X bought off 1! tho sholf with an asbootos labol on it. Whoa wo woro 12 uppllora to than X bollowo tboy wont around four or fiwa 13 percent, but Xroally don't know, and it'a a dlekona to 14 try and aaalyno for aobostoa In mud at that level. It'a IS Just a major aaalytioal job# at least wo'ro finding it that 16 way. ' 17 So X can only guass that it waa four or five 18 poreont in tho first toat. Id COMMXSSXOMBS KBSHBBRi What-- 20 MB* RHODES > Ono thing X would lifco to point out 21 la that tho 08HA eoapllanoa pooplo bad protty such tho 22 same numbers, tho same range of auhbera that wo'ro getting. 23 COMBXSSXONBR KUSHHBRt Tea, that's evident from 24 tho data shown hero. But the difforoneo then between the 25 asbestos eontent of the materials that you used, or woro I KMX 00893 86 1 uaad Uttsr and tha tulitr MtirUli that Rehi night 2 han wnd| would haw Nm of the ordor of four or five, 3 though probably not aa high aa fit* baeauae thoy didn't 4 go abooa 20 poroant* ubtitoi, owaa yaars ago* did thoy7 5 lot. RHODES* Wall* tha laforoatlon Z quoted vaa 6 gloom to a* by omo of tha larga oamnfaoturara* and a man 7 who*d boon 1m It for oamy yaara. It oaa 10 to 15 poroant. 8 In tha aarliar. 9 C0MMX8SZ0BER KD8BBER* Okay. 10 MR. RBODBSi Rotoally* It didn't drop too aneh 11 until tha aawaatlaa. 12 COMMI88ZOMBR 1CD8BMSR* Taa* Z guaaa Z bava diffi 13 culty aaerlbing tha diffaranoa between Rohl'a raaulta and 14 youra* or thaaa othara vhioh ara dlffarancaa of tha ordar 15 of parhapa 10 -- 16 MR. RHODSt wall ~ 17 COMMX88ZOMBR X08BMBRi -- to a diffaranoa in aa- 18 baatoa oonoantration -- 19 MR. RHODES I Wall* Z don't want -- 20 COMMXSSZOHBR E06HHBR* -- Of two, or poaaibly 21 thraa 22 MR. RHODES* I didn't want to gat too nveh into 23 -- Z don't naan to critique Rohl'a reaults* Z prasant then 24 * they ara. But I would point out that they took a lot of 25 KMX 00894 87 ! one end one and a half minute eacples, and those are . Z notoriously rariabi*. 3 . COlUtZ SSICKSK rcswntlr Y*S. '4 i ' ! ISA. RHOPEfi i.rd if you look at the meaning aloes, 5i yon find that the mu valv.a fox pole sanding, which is 6 the standard commercial sanding procedure, is 10 fibers per is 7 oc. 3 i i i i The nean value for the band sanding, which is i S the way the consumers sand, is five fibers per cc. So 10 \ they're not viewed in that wanner, they're not that different tl then the biggest numbers that we got around three, and 12 OSBA, three and a half, and OSSA around three and a half. 13 And that was run, I understand, as a test. Our 14 data were all obtained where we went into a commercial 15 t< location at the ~ this was all done in cooperation with 16 dry vail contractors where ve want in and attached a 17 sanple to the fella's back. E& didn't really know what 18 we were doing. 19 We were Measuring the dust that he was breathing, 20 and then faded into the background so that he would 21 told him to do just what ho normally did. We emphasised 22 trying to get it, get roe51 to i th manner that the 22 nan were actually working. 24 The contractor wanted to find out what kind 25 of dust levels they ware arpc-cing people to. KMX 00895 88 I COKHXflXOSBA XOSUSKt Thank yon. 2 MR. sbodssi It was not ist up as a test. 3 CHAZRMA8 BTXMQTOM< Ray nore? 4 OOKMX88XOMBR PRMU&XRt Tea* on page 3 two ques 5 tions. Ton sake the atataaaat that va believe tha total 6 of |3S nilllon annnal prasaats a reasonably reliable 7 nlaiaua astlaata of direct aeoaoalo effects of tba replace8 aoat of asbastoo la tha tapa joist ooapeuads. 9 Manually for how long? What kind of a calculation 10 is this? IT KB. RHODES< That*a a wary good quaation. you've really got tha 10*000 tons par year of aabastos ia ao -- la much highar thaa it's aov baiag used. Tha panic button was pushed bora* la tha last sawaral aonths, so that 1 doubt if raally thara's anybody la the country -- I vouldn*t say that, hay of tha blggar -- I know aoaa of tha blggar aaaufaeturars are using aabastos. That was tha aaowat that was being used before tha serious inroads began with tha concerns for OSHA, and tha various -- tha regulatory efforts that have gone ia. X would not naan to inply that tha Coasuner Product Coaaission's action was going to result in an affect of 10*000 tons a year of asbestos. however* tba lnforaatlon on tha cost per can KMX 00896 89 ! v&s given to ta<t. and 1 think vas to your consultants, j a f as representative of Vr.t- Kind of nuditioael cost that i 2 it ws going to fcc tc use: adapt iei t?, ' void-. is cno of 4 . ' tbo principal pl?:cc acres that vs are avare of. | : \ 5 .. COHHICSIOiSCP. FR&bKtlB Where did the 5.5 Billion I 6` dollars actually cone free? ' "" 1 I i7 HI. RHODES> That'a $1 lillioB for th asbestos, 8 ` Rad the 3S cents a cat* for 18 million-cans. 9 COMMXS6IOBKR FRJUSXI.II* Oh, Z see. 10 MR* RBOPESi Baa ay arithmetic gone bad on se? 11 COKHX8SIOVBR PR&SSXZHi Wall, I -- Z still 12 don't understand. lr joojwtprelecting this ,foravr? 13 MR. MODESt Mo, right now ' COMMISSIONS!* FRRHKX.ZH: What -- 14 15 MR. RHODESt Right now it's costing, to tha -16 beat of our information, about a quarter of a can to 17 _. leave tha tabascos out and use a substitute. 18 ' COMMISSIONER FRA3RLIB* Obey, Z see that. 19 MR. R&opBS* And that's a direct affect across tha marketplace, of the subsCitation for the asbestos 20 21 development for the Rohl satcri-al coats for theasbestos 22 reformulations. ' 23 COMMISSIONER FR&3r.*7.; Rail, now, isthat al- 24 vays going to bo the caso or is -- should you not ba 24 assuring scotl:iag elsa ir hsre, cither some kind of | J9 j f j i ! { |' I i it i > ; I, I |: t i i j: |1 } j KMX 00897 ! 90 I economy seal* or other factor that over a period of 2 time yon know you're golmg to * 3 U. UODNi Actually, again, froa vhat wa'va 4 boon ablo to learn, the supply of some of thaaa naterials 5 ia fairly limited. fha atapolgita has only# X believe, 6 throa producers. 7 had a aaulvt ovitoh to that oaterial is sooething 8 yon should explore, Z believe, as to what ~ 9 COMMXSSXOHSR FRAMKLXHt Ton aeaa it eould drive 10 the priee of that material up? 11 MR. KBODlSt The priee of atapolgite, quite 12 easily eould go up when it beoonea a very popular asbestos 13 substitute. 14 COMMISSIONER FRAEl&XMs Okay. IS MR. RHODESi Again I*u speculating, this is 16 secondhand, vhat X pick up around the industry. 17 COMMISSIONER FRAMELXN* The other question X 18 have relates to the next sentence where you sake a connent 19 about the poor perfornaaee of many of the asbestos free 20 muds. What do you mean by that? 21 MR.RHODES * That subject has been touched on a 22 number of tines this morning. We axe told by people in 23 the industry that the asbestos free mods vary very 24 considerably in their comparative performance with the 25 asbestos containing muds. KMX 00898 91 There's a -- first of all there's' a tendency for then to be harder to draw in the sense that, yon know, you're putting then on with a wide knife and you slap it on, and bring it down. And if you want to go back, if it isn't exact -- First of all it's heavy to n*, it feels heavy to the worker, and if you want to go back and remake a pass over it and touch it, it tends to be difficult to re work . The other arean, and X think your first speaker indicated that the formulation of a mud of this nature, wo oall it a mud, la a fairly exacting balance of a lot of ingredients, and it has to be climate adjusted, it has to be in some areas adjusted to the way they're -- whether they're using primarily hand tools or aims tools. And it isn't all that easy to take a product that's evolved over 30 or 40 years and come up with a material that performs in the same fashion. Have X answered vour question or am X -- COMMISSIONER FRAKKIiIN: Are you saying there really is consumer concern about - MR. RHODES: Well, I would agree with the gentle man -- speaking as a consumer now, the fella that does it once or twice in hi*: life time is not going to notice. It's the cotmaercitl people, chat can tell the difference. KMX 00899 92 1 Our metloi, the ctMtion of the ooopla that 2 Aid tha full room u that a mu vilX only do it once in 3 hla Ufa rtlaa, tha oast tiua ha'll uaa paneling* some 4 thing of that natura. . S COHMZSSXOMSft nuuixuii ha'll lot his wife do it 6 or something. 7 MR. RBODSBt Bow it -- 8 CHAIRMAV 1TIM0T0U. First and last tiua. 9 MR. RBODKSi Zt is for a raasonably skilled con- 10 sonar, it's aueh aasiar to put in paneling. At least 11 that's ay ova paraonal oonsaaar opinion* and they're going 12 to dry vail* thosa four by sight things oiC a coiling ara 13 a raal dog to haadla. 14 CHAIRMAH BTXUGTOf)t For tha racord* you've ad- 15 draasad tha one area on poor parfornanca that you mentioned, 16 but you also aada a stataaant that yon vara concerned 17 about tha utilisation of tha tarn binding with asbestos, 18 and that that is improper. 19 Would you elaborate in tarns of what would 20 be properly be addressed as, for tha racord. 21 MR. RHODSSs Well, the binder, in normal termi 22 nology, tha binder is the glue, tha plastia, I could use 23 that term loosely, that glues tha whole thing together. 24 Tha asbestos is in there for a number of things, to make it 25 easy to trowel, tha description that I've given, the asbestos 1 2 3 4 S e 7 8 S 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 IS 19 20 21 22 23 / T I' KMX 00900 93 muds are slipperier and they move sore easily under the trOvelN They also tend to feather better, and the asbestos also reduces shrinkage, so that you don't got cracking. Row, 2 don't aean to imply that all the non as j bestos muds have not solved these problems, but they're varying degrees, and it's quite a research program to ooma up with a good asbestos-free and. So I was really merely making you aware of some misuse of terminology In eome of your reports. CHAIRMAN BYXHGTOHi ' why I say for the record. I appreciate that, and that's . ! I MR. RHODES* Does that answer your question? CHAZRMAH BTINGTOMt That's fine. Commissioner, do 'f 1 you -- MR. RHODESc The asbestos also serves in the northern part of the country, the muds tend to freeze out on the jobs, and warehouses and that sort of thing. And one of the big problens they had to overcome on these non asbestos muds is the one freeze ruins it, whereas the asbestos muds, you can etir them back together after a freeze or two. ` CHAIRMAN EYINGTOs?t Commissioner Kushner. COMMISSIONER KOSESSRs- Yes. Can you identify the specific chemical or physical characteristics of asbestos that would underlie its use in these compounds? i I 94 t MR. RBOOR81 Tee, X think X did that in the AXA 2 presentation, bnt X'il bn glad to hit it barn, hit the 3 high npetn. Asbestos in made p of very tiny, hair 4 like fibers, end when yon nil then in the and they fora a 5 loosely flocalated network that gives it body. 6 had when yon trowel it or work it, the fibers 7 eoae opart, they4re so loosely attaehed, and the material 8 becomes thin, which allows yon to nova it with a trowel, 9 rework it, and feather it, and that sort of thing. 10 On the other hand, as soon as yon take the 11 eaergy off yon stop poshing it with a trowel, bnt the 12 fibers reflocnlate again, and it stays in place, and it's 13 this property that people are trying to get without ata- 14 polgite, lastinite, and a number of these other fibrous 15 mineral species. 16 COHHX8SXOHBR KU8HNBRt Ton would look for sub- I 17 stitntes la other fibers - 18 KMX 00901 NR. RHODB81 As far as x -- 19 COMMXSBXOHBR KtJSHNERs -- material. 20 NR. RHODESi -- am aware, the main candidates 21 for replacement are other fibrous minerals. Atapolgite 22 is, X think, one of the leading candidates. It's -- they 23 have fairly long needle-like crystals, look a little like a 24 pencil, pen, that general shape. 25 X thought of bringing along some photomicrographs. I KMX 00902 95 4 1 jbut X Aid not. X didn't really want to get into the substi zi tutas tre, that was cot nr principal point. 3 CQMMISSlonCft KDEHMERt Do thc.y tend to have the 4 eaaa kind of properties as asbestos in terns of the fiber i 5 bundles appearing to almost continuously be able to sub 6 divide it into finer and finer -- . 7 HR. RHODES* tbs atapolgite - t i> 8 COMMISSIONER ROSHNBRi -- fiber*. \tt S hr. Rhodes* -- tends to be single crystals. i IQ They nornally do not -- they're in the form in which they n were grown in nature, there's no reel tendency for then 12 to split into finer and finer fibers. 13 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN* IS there perforaance, of i i * 14 the perforaance of the conpound, is it similar to that t 15 which contains asbestos? ft 16 MR. RHODES* X can only tell you what X hear in 17 the field. 18 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: What do yon hear? i it i t IS MR. RHODES: It's not quite as -- it varies with 20 who manufactures it, but in general it does have some de C^ .f. ficiencies. And X think the BSG gentleman indicated that t 22 it has not been totally accepted as equivalent. 23 COMMISSIONER FR'.kmlik : So that your comments 24 about poor performance of non asbestos muds would apply. 25 MR. RHODES: To the coc^orcial , commercial users O903 96 1 COMNXS8XORIK FEARELXR To what *' just boon 2 talking about# atapolfitt. ME. ERODES* ka far aa X know -- 3 4 COEMX88ZOEBE rEARSI.XRs Containing - Ml. RHODESI -- this la v have looked at aoae 5 f these. The answer Is yes# the atapolgite# although 6 there --<--X will say that X thlak there is oae that coaes 7 pretty close. They've need soae other things -8 C0NNX88X0HEE rEAHKbXHi To be equivalent in per9 foraanee. to ME. ERODES * To be equivalent# yes. n COMMX88XOEER PEERXLXRt The rest isn't. 12 ME. ERODESt Zt varies quite a bit. Again# as 13 the U8G speaker indicated# developing a new coapound with 14 -- that has to aeet these 14# 15 criteria, is a aajor re 15 search project. 16 The coapanies which aaaufnature these oonpounds 17 have no incentive to use asbestos# other than perforaanee 18 in the aarketplace. Host of then would rather not have to 19 have all the control equipaent in their plants# they'd 20 rather get rid of the problea if they could find an easy 21 way to do it. 22 And they've been working on it since'*- soae of 23 then since 1970# or thereabouts# and they're just beginning 24 to see the results now. 25 KMX 00904 97 1 COMKXSSXOUSR FR&HRLXKt This is curious. Maybe e* you and X are hearing the discussion differently, but X i 3 t1 thought the mb from CS Gypsum vis oomieg down and saying j 4 he thinks that the substitutes are going to be okay, there j 5 is a little resistance, but he thinks the Mrketplace is j 6 accepting then. ` 7 And I hearyousayingsomathingdifferent, X a think -- . ` ' 9 MR. RHODES1 Well, the narketplace nay have no 10 chcioe, the way things are going. j j ? | ij j \i j 11 CQKMX8SX0NKR FRAKSLXMt Okay. j 12 MR. RR0DB8 But X was talkingto acompetitive : 13 manufacturer on Friday, and he indicated that, yes, we can 14 go with one, we've got one that we think is better than 15 some that have been discussed here.. But we're not happy 15 . with it as an.equivalent replacement. { j 17 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN> Thank you. [ 18 CBAXRMAK BYIWGTOH: Commissioner Pittle. 19 COMMISSIONER PITTLE: Yes. Just so that X make 20 sure that I'll be reading the right things over lunch, 2" the July 14th submission by you has dealt with some expari- 22 ments run on June 21, 22. That is the experiment that you s j 23 are reporting on the top cf page 6, the eight hour time j 24 waited average during exposure? ! ( KMX 00905 98 I HR. RHODBSt The top of page 6. 2 COMMISSIONSR PITTLK* Sis of your statement. 3 MR. RHODES * Ho. 4 COMMISSIONER PITTLB* That's not the July 14th -- 5 MR. RHODBSt No have since installed a full 6 room and that report is being frantically written right now 7 to submit before the August 29th deadline. 8 COMMISSIONER PlTTLBt Ton*re Just giving me time 9 to enjoy my lunch. 10 MR. RHODBSt But these two -- as you might 11 expect, we did a whole room. We got some higher TWA's. 12 COMMISSIONER PlTTLBt Yes. 13 MR. RHODBSt And those are the -- 14 COMMISSIONER PlTTLBt Then when we come back I 15 will be sure that I'll still have the same questions about 16 ' this report as to why there are seros. but let's move on ! 17 to the one on the thing about some of the testing proce- ; 18 dures. This might be the right time to answer the ques- 19 tions. 20 The people who were involved inthis experiment. ! 21 were they your employees. or were they a testing group? 22 MR. RHODBSt One of them was myself. I ran it 23 in my own basement. The other is a man andhis wife who > 24 areemployed as guests. 25 COMMISSIONER PITTLB: Did they have any ~ did you KMX 00906 . 99 t or they have uy sorb of apodal* or unusual ventillation 2 quiyant la their house, an attio fan or -- 3 UK. RHODES* Z Aid not hat any* nor did thoy. 4 COMMISSIONER KDSHHBRs Zs that tho recommended 5 way to m that* X aoan* aro thora any spealal pro nations 6 to tako whoa yon -- 7 Hit. MODES* Wall* x*a sorry X didn't bring a 8 boaeh of pletaros* it*a duatlor than tho dlekons. Tho 9 oporation is -- tho Mala ingredient in the and is limestone* 10 and it*s heavy. 11 C0MMXS8X0HSR XOSBMBRs X*ve used it aoro than 12 onco in ay lifo -- 13 MR* BBODBBi Too know* yon sand it and it's 14 dustior than daylights* 15 COMMXSSXOBER KOSHNER* Yob. 16 MR. RHODES* Bat they did not have any* and X 17 did not bare any in tho way of special ventillation. *8 COMMXSSXOBER KUSHNERt When you aade sons of your 19 aeascroaonts* you* at least on tho July 14th report* you 20 apparently Measured then by using two differant techniques. 21 MR. RHODES * Be measured them prlaarily by the 22 prescribed hxosh-osha. -- 23 COMMISSIONER KUSHNER* OS HA. 24 MR. RHODES* -- standard. 23 COMMISSIONER XOSHNER: That's the optical . ... ... KMX 00907 100 ouialig. MU* RBOOSBt Optical waterial. also examined then with a tcehalqoc we're working ea ondar th scanning clcctroc aieroaeopa. COKM IBS IOMR XUSHNERj Z see. MR. RBODSSt Chat waa primarily to aatiafy our- aelves that tkara waran't a lot of littla fibara that wa vara aisaing aadar tha optical because X waa afraid sons' body would aak that question. COMMISSIONER JCOSBMBRt Wall, lot a* try to aak It if Z*wa pot thia thing liaad up right. Tour wioroaoopa had a Magnification of, it eoeld have gone all tha way up to 25,000. NR. RRODBSt tea, wall, tha aeaanlng acopa could hawa gone ap to about 20,000, without loalag reaolution -- COMMISSIONER EUSHNER* X aee. NR. RHODESs -- on thia particular aanplaa. Working off thoae filtara in a aeanning acopa ia a technique in itaolf. COMMISSIONER KOSHNBRi Xa it wore difficult to do it, lot*a aay, with that piece of equipnant with 20,000tha opposed to 10,000tha? HR. RHODESt You lose field area. See, the higher your nagnification, the saaller area you're looking at. COMMISSIONER KOSHNER: Right. KMX 00908 X01 I MS. RHODESi Had the longer you have to scan to z COMMISSIONER PITTLEr Vo get the same area. 3 MR. RHODES: -- to satlfy yourself that you've 4 covered enough area no you've got some sort of a repre 5 sentative sample. 6 COMMISSI OH HR PI VTI*R i Well ( the reason I'm asking, 7 of course, is that I was struok by the fact that you. In 8 comparing some of the samples, you tried to add soae infor 8 mation about this controversy about what's the best way to 10 measure this. n MR. RHODES* Tea. 12 COMMISSXOSBR FIRIiSi Material, that you made most 13 of those down at the lower resolution areas, and I wondered 14 why you didn't try it from maximum resolution. You're 15 telling me now it's a matter of time to get the feel. ! 16 MR. RHODES* Well, you've got to look et enough 17 fields so you feel you've got a representative area. 18 The bigger you go the more fields you've got to look at. ?2 COMMISSIONER PlTTLS* Yes. 20 MR. RHODES: And this whole question of scanning 21 in transmission scopes got beaten around foi about three 22 days, last month. 23 COMMISSIONER Well -- 4n-*v* MR. RHODES: Aud it's far from being a routine 4. J,* ,** procedure. i >. i KM* 00909 102 1 COHH11IIIOCTIt MWHi Will# thit nay b* on* of. 2 th* nuofti why thr la this vast difference, possibl* 3 difference, in th* data hatwwan kohl and yourself and 4 OBBR. 5 Mil. RBODBSt aohl was nsiag -- tha data, th* Rohl 6 data that X haw* pr*asat*d hy th* saa* OBHA technique. 7 C0NMX8820RBR PXTTXJEt Th* saa* 08BA technique, 8 th*y did aot ns* any sort of scanning -- 9 MR. RRODBli Mo. Let a* aaka it elaar, all of 10 tha fibar eonat data that w* haw* reported has h*n by th* 11 prescribed ossa -- 12 COMMISSIONS* PXTTLSt Oh. 13 MR. RKOOBS* -- MXOSB t*chniqn*a, and Rohl's data 14 ar* by th* saa* t*ehaiqn*. 15 COMMXS6XOMSR PXTTLS* JUL1 right. ' 16 MR. RHODBBt Th* looking, and I will cona*nt that 17 th*r*'s a lot of problens with th* OSRA-MIOSH optical 18 *ib*r counting t*chniqu*. Thor**a a -- th* Asbestos 19 Xnforaation Rsaociation has got a big, round robin that 20 th*y*r* trying to got off th* ground, and it's a najor 21 problsa with nforcaa*nt, not so much in th* erysatil* 22 asbestos industry, but when you gt over into talc and * 23 iapurities. 24 It isn't all that hard to gat a pratty good 25 recognition of erysatil*, optically, & reasonable percentage KMX 00910 103 1 of the tine*. But when you start throwing the amphabol 2 chips la there it heooaes a very difficult problem to 3 deelde is it an amphabol or ies*t it. 4 Thera's really ao good way until you get into 5 oae fairly involved petrographic, anieroseope techniques. 6 COMHZBSXOBBB BXTThSs hall, X can't put ay finger 7 on the asset location* but apparently Dr. Selikoff has 8 writtan soaevhere in an article or a report that he feels 9 that you need to aultiply 100 to 200 as a nullifying factor 10 to sort of take the optical scanning data and aake it aatch 11 with the aicrosoople data. 12 and you address that in your report by saying 13 that you didn't think it was that great of a multiplicity. 14 Do you hare any -- 15 MR. RHODESt Hell* in ie COMMXSSXOHSR PXTTLBt -- feel for the number? 17 HR. RHODESs Hell* the thing you want to recog 18 nise is that X think X'va seen that reference. You're 19 talking about in one ease using raw asbestos fiber, 100 20 percent asbestos fiber* shaking it up* and you can get a 21 whole wide range of fiber sises. . 22 In these sanding samples, the only thing you're 23 seeing is what you break loose out of the binder. And the 24 littlier ones, X suspect, are very small fibrils, are much 25 harder to break out than the longer fibers. KMX 00911 ! 104 1 Hw we mat around with Slikoff on this, on 2 spraying vorkf ud X did tk seas' sort of thing, and could 3 not find, at loaat la our techniques# any groat Multiplicity 4 of vary fine fibora. 5 Mow, X don't any they don't exist in the raw 6 asbestos, than thoao materials wharo you*wo ~ 7 nmitcommxssxoibr oh. 8 MX. RHODSSi -- nixed than with a binder and re 9 leased then by sanding* It's a -- as far as we eaa -- 10 COMMISSIONER FIVTUt the aeastrenent technique 11 is highly sensitive to the Material that you're Measuring 12 in terms of -- 13 NR* RHODESt No, X think what's there is highly 14 sensitive to the history of the Material you're looking at. 15 It's a little bit different point of view. 16 COMMISSIONER PXYTLBt Nell, X think bis nunbers 17 were something like a multiplicity anywhere froa 200 to 18 1000, and you said you didn't think it was quite that high. 19 MR. RR0DR8i Nell, if you'll look at the NX06H 20 criteria document, the recent one on the appropriate levels, 2! they review some conversion factors from nanagrans to 22 fibers longer than five nicrons, and the nunber -- their 23 conclusion is that there is no consistent conversion fac 24 tor. 25 COMMISSIONER PITTLB: Okay. Did -- Z think I want [ KMX 00912 105 t i 1 2 8 4 5 6 7 8 e 10 it 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 . i 23 24 25 to save this until after I nod fcha report -- MR. RHODES; Okay. COMMX8SXOUBR PX*TX>8* -- because there are still som things that ara on tha surface out here, like, for exanple,the snbstitnta Mterial. Zs that as likely to ha airborne or free fork as tha prasaat asbestos? Za other words, it nay netoh np with all the other 14 qualities and Z don*t want it to Mteh np with 15 quali ty, nanaly sensing sons sort of a respiral diseases :: ' MR. RHODBSs z don't really have enough back ground in that area. Som of these aateriale tend to be quite dusty MR. PZKUi kre thare any tori -- long tern, { ] chronic studies going on on the -- at least tha one that you've cautioned, atapolgite. MR. RHODBS * X believe MXOSB has got som things going. Tou have to understand basically we're in the asbestos business. COMMXSSXOHSR PITTLBt X understand. MR. RBODBS* And sons of these areas of toxi- oology we -- for substitutes we run into talking to people, but - COKMXSSXOMKR PlTTliEt Are you aware, has any- body mentioned that they're doing any -- i ! ! I i ' HR. RHODES; X know that HZOSB has a couple of km* 0091* 106 tttdlu goiif on atapolgita. What thay found* I couldn't tall you* John Burnt probably in a yood contact there* in Cincinnati* X have enough trouble following the ones that are directly invoiced. COMMX88IOM1 PXWWUt Very helpful. CBAXMUM BYXWGTOMi Okay* wall the etaff and sene of the other eoenieeloners also nay have some additional questions* as you complete your second portion. We'll save for that. Where was one question that was eubnltted* that X bring up now* and that is* has Carbide done any morbidity or morbidity studies on the dry wall workers exposed la the first SO years or so? MR. RHODESt Wo* we have not. CHAIRMAN BYXMGWOMt Okay. MR. RHODRSi We've only been involved for 10 or 12 years here* really* on any kind of a seale. CHAIRMAN srXMGTOHi Would you be willing to provide to our staff a list of those people who make tape joist compounds that you sell asbestos to? MR. RBODBS* Our policy in the past has been th*t we did not give that kind of information* but X think this point in time the answer* X can give you right off the top of my head, there aren't any. KMX 00914 107 * CBAIRMAK BYIHGTOK? Okay. aA MR. RRODRSt That's off the top of my head. I'll -* *. check that hot Z think -- ' 4 CB&IRHMI BTIHGTOH* Because you don't think you're 5 selling to anybody* 6 MR. RBO&BSi Mithin the last veek or so, the last 7 of the Mohlgans, decided be wouldn't dare take a chance on 8 it any sore, so -- S CHAXRHAH BYXHGTORt Okay. Thank you, we'll call to you back here shortly. It MR. RBODS&t Okay, thank you. t CBAXRKXR BYZBGTOBt yhs neat parson is Svedeen 13 Gibbons of the natural Resources Defense Council. 14 Yes, Miss Gibbons, do you have a copy of your 15 statement? 16 MS. GIBBOUSj I'n sorry,it's not prepared in t7 final fora, yot, and I can submit one later this afternoon. 18 CBAIRMXB BYZBGTOBt Okay. 19 MS. GIBBOHSt My name is Svedeen Gibbons, X am 20 an attorney with the natural Resources Defense Council, and 21 Z thank you for tho opportunity to speak today on the 22 recently published proposed rules to ban consumer patching 22 compounds containing respire'-.; free fora asbestos. 4^!*'A-r On July 15th, 2.87`i. SJEDC filed a petition with CPSC requesting it to iescs an order declaring consumer 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 to 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 | 23 24 25 KMX 00915 108 patching eoapouada containing asbestos to be banned hasar- dona anbatancas nndas the radaral Masardous Snbatanoaa Act, the Cenniaaion granted thia petition on April 28th, 1977, bnt has proposed to ban these products under Section 8 of the Cosaoner Product Safety Act. X would like to apeak today on four issues concerning proposed rule asking, naaely the ewideaeo regarding the unreasonableness of injury to conauaera, prowontod by asbestos-containing patching eoapouada, the enviroaaental haaardous associated with asbestos substitutes# the effective date of the pro posed regulations, and the wording of the proposed ban. MRDC believes that the Coaaission has correctly deterained that asbestos containing patching conpounds present an unreasonable risk of injury to oonsuaers. Phis finding was based on a review of oxperiaental data and huaan experience inforaatlon on exposure to asbestos. The Coaaission has calculated an assessaent on the risk of consuaer exposure on the basis of data by Dr. kohl and his colleagues at the Mount Sinair School of Medicine. Dr. Rohl*s work on exposure to asbestos in the use of consuaer speckling, patching, and taping eoapouada was cited by HHDC in our petition to this Coaaission. This testiaony was drafted before - the representative froa Union Carbido spoke . WWX 00916 109 i ! The resume? of the five day study of consumer 2 exposure to asbestee in. the spachling and dry wall renova ! I j tion operation. This, I understand; is different from the i i 4 information- which they summarise in their statement -today. ft 5 But in this earlier experiment; they found that 6 exposure level to the consumer of asbestos fibers longer 7 than five miorone did not exceed at any time 0*5 fibers S per euble Centimeter. $ This study contrasts with results obtained by JO Dr. Rohl who found that amounts of asbestos longer than i i i{ [ iIt five microns in the air during and after dry wall construc 12 tion operations, with asbestos containing patching com 13 pounds, ranged from 2.5 to 19.8 fibers per millimeter, 14 which is the same measurement as cubic centimeter, and 15 that fiber counts during mixing of the patching compounds 16 ranged from 25*4 to 59.0 fibers per milliliter. 17 Obviously the results from these two studies are 16 widely disparate, and we believe that they are so because 19 of at least two differences in technique used by Union 20 Carbide 21 fhe following information, which I'm going to 22 summarise, is obtained through a telephone conversation t 23 with one of Dr. Rokl's ccllsaguos at Mount Sinai School of p. Medicine, and I don't profc::'- tc be an expert in' chemical engineering, in chemistry. r ii I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 IS 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 KMX 00917 110 First* the Onion Carbide stud? doss not reveal that the patching compound was aaalysad to datarniaa that it did in fact contain asbestos* or bow nnoh asbastos it did oontain. This nnst bo dona by X-ray defruction, evidently it's a vary complex* analytical technique* and tha pa&ks that yea aaa for asbaatoa are vary ainilar to peaks that yon see for chloride. had chloride is found in asbestos containing compounds. I Second* and cost importantly, it appears that Onion Carbide did not use tha XZOSH counting technique. The XZOSH technique dictates that any fiber longer than five microns* and in a throe to one length to diameter ratio* is counted. Onion Carbide only eounted crystile fibers. St is evidently extremely difficult to identify which fibers are erysatile and which arc not* even with a polarising nleroaoope* which is presumably the type of instrument that would be used if you wanted to attempt the experiment. Thin is precisely why the XZOSH counting tech nique is widely used. Onion Carbide did not use a polarising microscope in attenpting to determine which fibers were asbestos. Or. Rohl's workers would like to know how they KMX 00918 111 1 did dittrsine it. Union Carbide also did not state how 2 oaay fibers ward collected and determined to not be crysa- S tilo. This might be very interesting information. 4 Finally, as Commissioner Plttle brought oat, the 5 time waited average of *.2 fibers per milliliter was baaed 6 on an occupational standard type technique formula, and 7 it's aot relevant to eonsumer situations. & Uaion CaribIda measured the average eight hour 9 exposure to the peraofc who did the job and by figuring 10 in the faet that ha was out of the house for ovar six 11 hours. - 12 Sven if we assume that Union Carbide sampling 13 levels are oorreet, which we don't believe is true, the 14 fibers present an unreasonable risk to health. If we 15 calculate the time waited average, assuming a consumer 16 remains in tha home, for the total sight hours, ws arrive 17 at .03 to .1 fibers per milliliter. 18 If the consumer is reasonably active during this 19 eight hour period, he will breathe in a total of four 20 cubic meters of air, or 120,000 to 400,000 asbestos fibers 21 longer than five microns. 22 In addition, for each five micron asbestos 23 fiber, there are conservatively specking 50 to 100 times 24 as many smaller fibers. fav This means that the consumer would breathe in KMX 00919 112 1 an additional 12 Million to 40 Million amallor aabaatoa 2 fibers. 3 we balloon that if tba CoMMiaalon dataralnoa not 4 to proceed with tbo rulaaaklmg on the baala of Dr. Kohl's 5 study baoanaa of tha Onion Carbide study that tbay wait 6 to naka that daolaion nntil Onion Carbide's atndy ia pub 7 lished, and there's anffleiant tiaa for erltioal aelantifie 8 review of it* 9 I'm not advocating that yon dalay la promulgating 10 tha ban. Xaduatry affootad by tha propoaad ragulation has 11 npraasad eonoarn that othar fibrous minerals subatltutas 12 for aabaatoa, such as, wall lastlaita, atapoltlta olay 13 and fibrous tale, nay prasbnt advaraa environmental health 14 offsets. 15 although this issue ia aignlfieant la itself, 16 it ia not particularly relevant to this ruleaakiag. 17 So avideaea has bean prasaatad which shows that aueh a 18 fibrous Mineral Must be substituted for asbestos in patobiag 19 compounds. 20 On tha contrary, it is clear that affective 21 patching compounds need not contain fibrous minerals. 22 Industry has enumerated the properties of asbestos which 23 it considers to be the most valuable in the preparation of 24 patching compounds. 25 These include good absorption qualities, high i KMX 00920 113 resistance to electricity, fire ud alkaline substances, low Stic parse ability, roughness of fiber, low density, aad sos relative laparsaabllity, sad relative laparaaablllty to fsagas, alldaw aad vapor. However, the oaly relevance of tbasa charaeterls- ties of asbastos to this rulemaking prooaadiag is that they ooatrlfeata to an owarall offset of fiaal patching compounds. That la a product which la easily applied, workable aad durable. What must fee stressed is that neither asbastos nor other fibrous siaerals are necessary to achieve an affeetiva patching eoapound. Patching eoapounds already eaist which do not contain these siaerals aad which era as effective as asbastos containing products. Of the 15 patching eoapounds sold in retail out lets, stapled by Or. Kohl and his colleagues, five were found to contain asbestos, five were found to contain a plating siaeral such as siea, kellnite, and pyrofllite, which perfora the sane functions as asbestos. And five were found to contain neither fibers nor plating alnerala, aost probably they contained caleiun earbonate. At least one of the latter products was used by one of the investigators and found to be totally effective KMX 00921 114 i 1 Thus, th Coatluioi should study ths 2 possible adverse environmental hsslth offsets posed by 3 other fibrous mlaerals to consumer* it should not refrain 4 froa promulgating ths proposed regulations in final fora 5 as sooa as possible. 6 Xt is, of oourse, hoped, that industry will aot 7 responsibly and not substitute suspect fibrous minerals 8 for asbestos in their reforuulntion of asbestos containing 8 patching compounds. 10 The Coaaiasion has the authority to set the 11 effective date of the proposed regulation, the proposed 12 ban on patching eoupouads containing asbestos, as the 13 date of promulgation of the final regulation rather than 14 30 days later as now proposed, if the Commission determines 15 immediate effectiveness is within the public Interest. 16 And x do see, believe, that such a finding is 17 supported by the evidence already before the Commission* 18 do evidence has been presented which shows that the 19 risk to an individual -- sorry, in fact, the Commission 20 has already determined to promulgate a ban effective on 21 final publication on fireplace logs and ash containing 22 asbestos. 23 An immediate ban on patching compounds is no 24 less in the public interest. Mo evidence has been, -'present- 25 cd which shows that the risk to an Individual household KMX 00922 115 1 from us of an asbestos containing patching compound in 2 tbs normal repair operation ic any less than that from 3 exposure to fireplace logs and ash. 4 In fact, more households use., moat likely, patching compounds, than fireplace logs and ash. Beery e day's delay of the ban exposes more consumers to an un 7 reasonable rich of injury. 8 The Commission itself has estimated that the 9 increased risk of death from respiratory cancer induced 10 yearly is between 10 and 2,000 per million. In addition, 11 these substances present other risk of injury to health. 12 Consumers will not suffer in any way from an 13 immediate ban because alternative products performing the t4i same function are presently on the market at a price IS comparable to asbestos containing patching compounds. ( 16 The lmpnet on the asbestos industry from the ban 30 days 17: earlier than proposed will be relatively insignificant. 18 The industry has stated that the amount of 19 asbestos sold for patching compounds is 10,000 tons, 20 and that this is a high figure at this point, and this 21 amount is only one percent of total asbestos sale. Assuming equal aoeuats are sold each month, only one-twelfth of a percent, of the total asbestos market will be affected by & ban 30 days earlier than proposed i 1 t t) l << i ) * j i ! f I I I KMX 00923 116 I hs w iMixd today, ion patching manufacturers 2 have switched to sob asbostos formulations, thua la tha 3 period Aarlag which tha Commission baa worked on this ban, f 4 manufacturers have alimlsatad mob of tbalr potostial 5 adverse economic impact 6 The polst of tbla ralomaklag la to protoet tha 7 health of oomaaaars, act to protect uaaufaetarera from 8 any adverse, acomomle Impact There arm always ooats and 9 basofita to regulation. This la a relatively small eost 10 associated with the baa effective spoa flaal prommlgatioa. 11 however, la tbs alternative, should the Com12 mlasloo mot make the flaal baa immediately effective. It 13 should prohibit manufacturers of asbestos coatalalag 14 patebiag compounds from stockpiling these products. 15 Tbs Coamissloa has authorised to issue snob a 16 ruling under Section 902 of the Consumer Produet safety 17 bet. Such a rule would prohibit the manufacturer or 18 Importation of these products between the date of promul 19 gation of the ban and its effective date, at a rate which 20 is significantly greater than the rate at whioh the 21 product was produeed or imported during a base period 22 prior to promulgation of the ban. 23 Such a rule is in the public interest aad 24 will not adversely affect manufacturers who are, of 25 course, expeoted not to increase manufacture of these KMX 00924 117 1 products during the period before the effective date of the z ben. ' s Finally, X would like to request several changes 4 to the wording of the proposed regulation to better reflect 5 the intent of the ban. In the proposed paragraph 1304.1A, 6 which describee the scope and application of the ban, in 7 the fifth line of the paragraph the words and designed for 8 nee are presently there. * 9 ' we request that these words be deleted, with 10 this deletion the paragraph will rend. Consumer Product 11 Safety Conniesioa declares that consumer patching compounds 12 containing respirable, free fore asbestos in such a manner 13 that asbestos fibers can become air borne under reasonably 14 foreseeable conditions of use, are banned hasardous products. 15 The words "and designed for wee" are unnecessary 16 and cause sons confusion in.the paragraph as it presently 17 reads. Xn addition, the definition of free fora asbestos 18 in proposed paragraph, section 1304.3 presently reads -- 19 shall X read it for the record nt are you following it on . 20 your paper? 21 COHMXSSXOHBR FRAKKLXK; Repeat where you are, 22 again. 23 MS. GIBBOUS; Okay, proposed paragraph 1304.3C, 24 free form asbestos 25 i t i f* i KMX 00925 118 1 C8AXRMA* RTXrCTOBt All right, why don't you 2 ladiaato, like yon did the last tins# what change you'd 3 like and then road it as it was ohangod. 4 M8. OXBhOMi Okay, noe would liho to soo 5 tho weeds in tho fourth line, those fron which fibers 6 deleted# end that the words of the product Inserted at 7 the end# ef the definition. 8 the definition would then road, free form asbes 9 tos is that which is not hound# wowon, or otherwise looked to in to a product by resins or ether bonding agonts# or n which can readily become airborne with any reasonably 12 foreseeable mao of the product. 13 Finally# in paragraph 1304.4, NRDC believes that U hasardous which arise from asbestos fibers are not limited IS to lung cancer and mesathelioma, and therefore would 16 propose that the paragraph be rephrased to read, on the 17 basis that air borne asbestos fibers present hasardous, 18 including lung cancer and mesathelioma to the public, 19 coasumer patching compounds containing respirable free 20 fora asbestos are banned hasardous produets. 21 X'we appreciated this opportunity to present 22 MKDC's views on the proposed ban, and X thank you. 23 CHAIRMAN BXXNGTONi All right, first of all, 24 though, by the end of the day you will have a full copy 25 of what was on KMX 00926 119 1 MS. GZBBOHSi Eight:. j 2i CHAIRHAK BYiHGTOR* We also have a copy of the j 3 transcript and will make acre that the staff then has a 4 copy of your proposed changes e> veil. 5 .Also Z have attsnpted to sake a eoupls of notes 6 since vs don't have a copy of some of the concerns you 7 had on the Union Carbide tests. But Z vould prefer that 8 rather - instead of using ay notes,' if lt*s possible for 9 you to outline specifically what your concerns were# that 10 they had not -tested for asbestos in the coaponnd and . M not uee a MIOSH testing technique# they did not use a | 12 polarised aieroecope. 13 MS. GZBBOKSt Right. s 3 14 ' 1 CHAIRMAH BVZBGTOM: And Z thinkthere were aaybe j 15 even one or two other ones that Znight have aissed. 16, MS. GIBBOUS: True. 17 CSAIRMAM BTZRGTONs If we could have those# since j 1.8 the Onion Carbide representative will be back with us, 19 ' i we might try and deal with it directly and let them comment 20 if they would on any of those things that you've raised. zy So -- 22 I MS. GIBBCKSt sure. Bid you want that in writing 23 or would you -- j 24 CB&ZEKAST B2THGTOH: if you'd juafc give mo a 25 written KX 00927 120 MS. GIBBONSi -- like mm to state it now? CHAIRMAN BYINOFONt Mo, if you'd just give no your writtos not* with the four or five questions, or whatever tho number of them are, thus wo would prooood from there, hnd one of then*! think -- on# or two of then he nay have commented on, let'a -- you know, lot'a consent on it, and again, if he foola it'a neoeasary that the record -- MS. GXBBONSs Fine. CHAIRMAN BYXNOTOMt Commissioner Pittle. COMMISSIONER ?XRUi Xt Might be -helpful if you had an eatiaate of how yon think the reenlte would hawe bean changed. Xt would be only a gueae any way becauae you don't hawe the quantitative data that -- MS. GIBSONSt Right. COMMXSSXOHSR FXTYLBi My quaation la -- MS. GXBBOH8* X don't think that -- Dr. Nicholson, who gave ne this data, and he didn't have enough informa tion to know how much the results would have been changed. CHAIRMAN BYXMGTON Okay. COMMXS8XOHRR FRANKLINi X have a -- do you have any ether information about aonaomar acceptability of sub stitute compounds containing no free form asbestos? MS.GIBBONSt X have ny own experience, and -- COMMISSIONER FRAKKLXNt Well, are other people relating their own experiences, but go ahead. KMX 00928 121 1 MS. GIBBONS: 1 used a patching cocpound before 2 that 1 didn't know that it contained asbestos, oe didn't I I j w contain asbestos, and found ect later that it did not 4 contain asbestos. It was fine, it did the job, A 5 terriblo job* 6 COMMISSIONER FKARKbZM: But you're not attribut 7 ing that to the product, in that what you're saying? 6 Zt worked, in other words, it worked well enough for you. 8 MB. GIBBONS* The crick is no longer in the wall. 10 Dr* Nicholson uses one product, which does not contain j11 either asbestos or plating aiasral, and uses it frequently, 1 12 end finds it to he totally effective, es their samples. ! 13 1 would iaagine that consuaera don't know the 14 difference. j 15 COMMISSIONER FSilCIiIHt That seena to he what 16 eoae other people have said this aorning too. . 17 The words that you wanted to have dropped out 18 of 1304.1k -- 19 MS. GIBBONS: Yes. 20 COMMISSIONER FRAHKLIKs -- and designed for use. 21 MS. GIBBONS: Yes. "22 COMMISSIONER : Could you expand- on your 22 reasoning there a little bit nora. ' 2a MS. GIBBONS: As it reads now we're talking about 1 , l* -- the Conrission talks about pntohing compounds, which j fI KMX 00929 122 1 contain asbestos, and which are designed for nsa la a 2 manner such that asbestos fibera oaa boooae airboraa nndar 3 reusonably foraaaaabla oocditioaa of use. 4 Xt la perhaps am -- arguably, a contradiction 5 botvooa daalgnad for naa balmg oaa ataadard aad reasonably 6 foreseeable conditions of nae being a standard by which 7 to judge whether this is a banned basardoas product. 6 conmxssxobsr franklin. X aee. 9 MS. OXBBOKSt Be think that the intent of the 10 rulemaking la that products containing asbestos from which 11 asbestos fibers are released during reasonably foreseeable 12 conditions* under reasonably foreseeable conditions of 13 use* and that whether it*s designed for use in that way W 14 is irrelevant. 15 COMMXS8XONBR FRANKLXNi Okay, thank you. 16 CHAIRMAN BYXNGTONt X thank you very much. 17 Was there a question? 18 It happens at the moment to be about 20 minutes 19 to lt00. Xt*s my understanding that Peter Simpson and Robert 20 Rauch really want to only address the enberising material, 21 is that correct. Nr. Rauch I see nodding. Nr. Simpson 22 here . 23 Xf the Commission has no objection, and since we 24 are going to have to come back, can we take those two 25 people, out of order right now so they could be done. KMX 0093 123 1 and then the rest o tha people who will want to -- thon 2 Hr. Castleanc.' And tfcoj we have Mr. Rhodes to coca back 3 again. 4 So vhat we could do is to take Kr. Simpson and i 5 Mr. Bauch now, and possibly do that in the aettt 20 minutes 6 or so, taka a break for approximately one hour, and we'll 7 resume at 2t00 o'clock, and Mr. Castleman could give his I 0 comments, and Mr. Rhodes could wrap up and ve could attempt 9 to he donewithin an hour or to. 10 Is that agreeable?Okay. First of all, Mr* n Simpson. ! i j I < 12 MR. SXMPSOHc I'm Peter Simpson and I'm with 13 Rustic Crafts Company, and we*re manufacturers of electric 14 artificial fireplaces and electric logs. And we're respond- 15 lag to the news release and the accompanying consumer 16 alert of July the 21st, and the proposed rulemaking concern 17 ing respirable, free form asbestos. 18 We are most distressed at tha wording used in 18 all three cases as the wording implies that all artificial 20 fireplaces and all artifical logs are harmful. And the ! 2! effect of this wording is not only understandable to 22 . the consumer concern, bet an actual stopping of consumer j ; J 22 buying. 24 ' 'She repeatedreforensa toartificiallogs and 25 artificial fireplaceswithoutspecific erclusica of * ; i ' KMX 00931 124 1 electric flrtplaeta as4 electric log* bu alantd the 2 eeaimr who alraady ovai our products * aad is causing the 3 prospective buyer to decide against buying. 4 We've manufactured electric, artificial fire 5 places aad logs for over 35 years, aad fsel that we have 6 a safe, sensible, energy saving alternative to gas logs 7 and inefficient fireplaces. 8 The electrically operated, fire simulator in our 9 log creates a very realistic burning effect, h portion of 10 our electric logs and a portion of our fireplaces are 11 deaerated with an artificial ash bed made of verniculite, 12 a product which ve are told is totally inert, inorganic 13 and non flammable aad which your office has indicated is 14 completely safe and acceptable. 15 nevertheless, since a news release of July the 16 21st, we have received numerous calls from the media, from 17 our individual retailers, and from consumers expressing 18 concern over our products. 19 We feel that we did have an opportunity to 20 convince these callers of the truth of the situation, 21 and ve spent additional money to notify our major oustoners 22 and our sales reps as to the truth. 23 But we're most strongly concerned about those 24 consumers who decide simply not to buy it because they've 25 been afraid, because they*va been made afraid by the KMX 00932 125 1 press release. 2 We havo a very highly seasonal business. We opt are most successful during the sis months in the winter 4 when people start thinking about fireplaces, and our 5 selling season.is only about two weeks away. 6 And we reguest that the -- that our products be 7 specifically excluded from this proposed ban. And it be 8 written into the rules of Che `Register. 9 We also would like the exclusion to be included 10 in a press release so that our consumers know that they 11 have a safe and eeononicel substitute. We, or at least X 12 read through the news release, whan it first case to us, 13 X wrote here and asked for it, and in reading through it 14 X tried to think of it in terns of e reporter, and also 15 at an editor, as to what actually night happen to the news 16 release when it was printed in the newspaper. 17 And by clipping out certain words, X case up 18 with the, the news release could have read, artificial 19 ' fireplace emberising materials, ash and embers, are used 20 in artificial fireplace systems for decorative purposes. 21 Asbestos fibers are released into the air when household 22 air currents disturb the ash. 23 About three or fcr.r days later X was reading <aW/ through our local paper, the Burgen Record, which is no 25 reflection, cn that particular newspaper, and this is hotr it l 1 I I l ! ! I \ I 1 VCMX 00933 126 1 OtM OUt. 2 They bad interviewed tba state commission of 3 eoaioMt affairs, tba director of that department,and 4 it states, tba dlraetor of tho atata division of consumer 5 affairs is argittf Haw Jersey soMaura to join a nationwide 6 campaign to disooatinna oaa of and aafaly disposa of 7 spackllag compounds and artifioial asta and embers, products 8 eontaiaiag inbalabla asbestos, and auspaetad of causing 9 cancer. bad that vaa tba first paragraph. 10 Tba Fadaral Conaunar Product Safety Conaission 11 is planning a ban on tba products, however state D. C. A. 12 director Adan X. Levin notes that tba ban will not beaone 13 offactive until soae tine this fall. 14 Be*s quoted as saying, these products are as- 15 trenely dangerous in that they have tba possibility of 16 causing cancer when inhaled, and inhalation occurs rather 17 easily. 18 jtnd a little further on in tho article, the 19 ' statement was made, the artificial ash and unbars era 20 used la gas burning and decorative fireplaces. At high 21 tamperatares the asbestos la these products produces a 22 glow similar to that of real ambers and ash. , 23 And the next paragraph, dangerous inhalation 24 of these products can occur, says Levin, when they are 25 sprinkled on the fireplace floor, when glue is used to KMX 00934 127 1 attach tha product to an artificial fireplace, and than z household air disturbs the ash. 3 The whole middle section of the consumer alert 4 and news releases Biased out, and ended up with just that 5 statement. 6 The quote from the proposed rules from the 7 Federal Register, the product is also glued to artificial 8 logs, either at a factory or by tha consumer using an 9 emberislng hit. Asbestos fibers are released when the i r i t j| i I > 10 eaberised material containing asbestos is sprinkled on the II fireplace floor and when ordinary household air onrrents 12 and downdrafts oanse the asbestos in the simulated ambers 13 end ash to become airborne. 14 This product is used on artificial logs and on i ' 15 fireplace floors beneath then to simulate light embers and i 16 i ash. There are three kinds of artificial fireplace logs 17 available on the market presently the electric flame 18 simulating artificial logs, of which we manufacture one 19 kind made out of oak wood, and there are the compressed, 20 synthetic logs generally made fron saw dost, and X: think 21 it's a was alndge, and gas burning, artificial logs. 22 Bow, the proposed ban concerns the third type, 23 the gas burning, artificial legs. Type one, our logs, i: ii i: 24 and type two, has been specifically excluded in the 25 wording of the Federal Register. KMX 00935 128 I Mov these iw dwt ud wax alidg* logs are 2 actually Iramd la the fireplace, but they -- in tha actual 3 wording tly have boon specifically excluded, although thay 4 do not oontaia asbestos* and Z don't think thay aver haws 5 contained asbestos. 6 had ws ars asking that tbs -- as tha eosnission 7 spoolCleally described and osolodad those compressed logs 8 to prevent unfair and unwarranted negative consuner reac 9 tion to that product, we request the sane exclusion for tha 10 ary sane reasons. 11 Ve are only a snail business, and we look to tha 12 agency of the federal government for support, and we 13 feel that this will have a negative effect on our busi 14 ness. 15 CHAIRMAN BYXMGTOHi Are there other manufacturers 16 of electric logs as well, besides yourself? 17 MR. SIMPSONs Yes, there's another manufacturer 18 of wood logs, and there's a manufacturer of fiberglass or 19 Z think it's structural foam cast facing to the log. 20 CBAXRMAM BYXMGTOHi Hell, is it your position 21 then that none of the people who are making the electric 22 type are using asbestos, and that is exclusively the 23 gas? 24 MR. SIMPSON: That is what I understand. We 25 have never used asbestos, and we keep a pretty fair eye KMX 00936 129 1 on what our competitors are doing, and .they nee the same 2 materials and it's virtually the same techniques. 3 i So that what you're really after is an addition 4 to the exemption, in other words to have it where wa have, 5 already Exempted compressed logs that ara burned, we would 6 like added in there electric.. 7 . MR. SIMPSON* That's correct. 8 See# the implication#we call them artificial 8 fireplaces and artificial logo. The major merchandisers JO who merchandise our products through their catalogues and 11 the retail outlets# have referred to them a* artificial 12 fireplaces# ertificial logs, or decorative fireplaces. ,13 - Wording that's used in the same way raferring 14 to the gee logs that you were specifically interested in. 15 CHAIRMAN BYXHGTOSt Commiesloner Kushner. 1 . \ ;c 16 COMHXSSXOBBR KUSHHBR* Perhaps I misunderstand 17 you but Z don't interpret our rules applying# that is ths IS proposed ban# as applying only to artificial logs intended 19 for use in gas burning systems. 20 - As X read it# the ban would be applicable to logs 21 containing or bearing respirable# free fora asbestos# 22 regardless of the kind of eyatoz that they were in. 23 It includes decorative fireplace logs# and X 24 think cites gas flrod# tocoraiivs systems simply as an 25 example. But I don't reed it as being United to that. KMX 00937 I 129 1 on nut oar competitors an doing, and ahoy boo tho oono 2 materials and it's virtually ho um techniques. 3 So that whet yea're rosily sftor is an addition 4 to tho exemption, in othor words to haws it whoro w have 5 alroady oxonptod eooprossod legs that aro burned, wo would 6 like added in there electric. 7 MS. SIXMOS I That's oorruct. 8 See, the implication,we eall then artificial 9 fireplaces and artificial logs. The major aorehandlsers to who merchandise oar prodaets through their catalogues and 11 the retail outlets, hawe referred to then as artificial 12 fireplaces, artificial logs, or deeorstive fireplaces. 13 Wording that's used in the sane way referring 14 to the gas logs that you were specifically interested in. 15 CHAiaxaM BTXMGTOXt Cosaissloner jtushaer. 16. COMMZSSZOWBX K08BXSR* Perhaps Z alsuhderstand 17 you but Z don't interpret our rules applying, that is the 18 proposed ban, as applying only to artificial logs intended 19 for use in gas burning systems. 20 As Z read it, the baa would be applicable to logs 21 containing or bearing respirable, free fora asbestos, 22 regardless of the kind of systea that they were in. 23 It includes decorative fireplace logs, and Z 24 think cites gas fired, decorative systems simply as an 25 example. But I don't read it as being limited to that. KMX 00938 i f 130 1 How, what is the -- what hind off assurance is 2 there that'manufacturers of electric systems would not 3 k finding it attractive under certain circunstances to 4 decorate the logs with asbestos bearing materials? 5 There is nothing inherent about the electric ones 6 as opposed to gas one, to make the use of asbestos bearing 7 amberising materials more or leas likely. 8 MR. siHPSOSi Except that first of all the - 9 when yon talk about decorative fireplace systems or arti 10 ficial fireplace systems there are only two ways -- three It ways of doing it*. M There are gas logs. 13 COMMXSS Z01IBR XCSHHERx Yes. 14 HR. siMPSOMc There are artificial electric logs, IS and there is something that is totally consumed. 16 COMMISSIONER KUSHKERx Yes. 17 KR. 6ZKPSOBs That would be wood, of the compres 18 sed logs that have already been mentioned in the Register. IS 2nd there is no -- we use.vermicular, we've been using 20 it all along. It serves the purpose well. He have no - 21 there's no advantage for uo to use asbestos because we're 22 not -- there is no hsat generated. I 23 The flame affect is created with a 40 watt 24 lamp and the clock motor- and it revolves to simulate a 25 burning effect, but the mc-terial you use on the outside l KMX 00939 131 1 has to b* dear# or at laaat souawhat clear so that you 2 eaa a*a this light. 3 la4 aaboatos -- 1 couldn't aaa any advantage. 4 We wouldn't eoasldar it, we would nawar hawo eonaidarad 5 it because it would aarwa no axtra purpose. 6 CBAXRMJUI BYXMQTORt Couaissioaer Pittie. 7 COKMX88XOWBR PXTT&Bt Z oust oay X niaundaratood 8 you whan you worn talking about aa affioiant a aystan. X 0 thought you warn talking about a aystan of providing hast 10 to tha roon. 11 MR. IXXPBOIi Wall* thay ara usad in eonjunction 12 with alaetrio heater, or thoy oan ba usad. 13 COMMX8SXOWSR PXTTfcB* Mo, X -- 14 MR. 8XMP80Mt But X understand, yas. 15 COMMXSSXOHSR PXTTXJI t Baeausa X was undar tha 16 inpmssion you had an elaetrieal haatar as opposad to a 17 -- tha only thing alaetrie is tha rotation of tha foil 18 or whatavar tha dawiea is that tha light would shiaa on 19 to reflect, to giwa tha appearance of ~ 20 MR.8XMPSOM> That's comet. 21 COMMXSSXOWBR PXTTLBt Okay. So thara's no 22 mason -- X can undarstand why you would haws no -- you 23 don't gat anough hast to causa anything to glow. 24 MR. SXMPSOR: There is none. The glow is 25 ematad by the color of the lanp or the bulb that's in KMX 00940 t log.. 2 I COMMISSIONER PXTTtEt So your concern ie Just 3 to Bate a distinction, o that the word artificial fir 4 **" ' . plae, where in one case it's artificial in terse of 5 it*8 even artificial in terms of giving off heat -- 6 . NR. SIKPSOK: Yes. 7 COMMISSIONER PITTUCi As opposed to another oae 8 that gives off heat bat it*s artificial, because there is 9 no chimney that tahes -- yes, there is a chimney too. 10 MR. SZHF80S* Doesn't have to be. Me-- 11 COMMISSIONER PXTTLBi It isn't a gas fireplace, 12 doesn't it have -- ' 13 MR. SXMPSOKi A gas -`most all of them have to 14 be vented -- ` 1r ; 15 MR. PITTLB* That's right. 16 MR. SXMPSOH: There are one or two that are not, 17 and have not been vented. But ~ 18 COMMISSIONER FRANKLINt Bat the concern is in 19 the consumer's mind, he or she doesn't make a differentia 20 tion between wbaS-Jcihd of artificial you're talking about 21 here. 22 . ' Your product, which vo have not -- if what you ' 23 say is true, we should bo concerned with under this notice ; 24 as being maybe pulled in. here in terms of its image as : 25 far as the consumer is concerned. KMX 00941 133 1 MR. IMPSOMt X have ~ 2 CHAIRMAN BYIROYORt fine, you'll show them? 3 MR. 8XMP80H t fhtM m jtt plotare of the 4 oatalofM, the product that wt'ra talklag about. It ia 5 frao standing. it la aot Tautad. it oaa ba usad in conjunc 6 tion with elactrlc boat* foroad air haatar that fits in- 7 slda tha flraplaca. 8 That log oa tha lsfthaad side, that oaa ataadlag 9 UP. is tha artificial log. Xt's a decorative flraplaca 10 system. 11 Rat X apoka of the madia. X got a call from 12 Oragoa from a maaufaeturar oat there who aaaa my products 13 ia eoajuaetioa with his. aad *he had baaa callad by tha 14 i looal aawa statioa aakiag why ha was sailing tbaaa products ) 15 whoa ha kaaw that they wars daagoroas. 16 had ha immediately got onto me to find out if 17 wa were, aad that's whaa X really got to hear how wa got 18 cldeswlpped by this proposed baa. 19 CHAIRMAN BTIMGTOHI Wall. X would suggest that 20 before you leave today the Coaaissioa would cartaaimly 21 like to eoaaidar your request. Rut X thlak that oaa of 22 tha things that's going to be necessary is soma consulta- 23 tloa with tha staff to determine how the appropriate 24 wording oaa ba sat up -- 25 MR. SXMPSOMt Yes. KMX 00942 ! 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 i 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 ! 24 i ZS. 134 CHAIRMAN BYIBG"OH* -- for the Ccnaission to consider, so it would take care of your problen but would not develop e very large loophole -- HR. SIMPSOH: SC. CHAIRMAN BYINGYOK: -- as commissioner Kushner indicated night be developed if it wmren*t properly ad dressed . MR. SIMPSOHt fee. CHAIRMAN BTIHGTOHt So I think the Coataission night, yon know, in considering this, would like to sake sure that the wording that we cone up with is not only agreeable to our staff but doea solve your problen without causing a major problen elsewhere before we could go any further. MR. SIMPSOHi Yes. COMMISSIONER PXTTLBt Is the veraioulate coated onto the outside of this log in the center? MR. SIMPSOH: Yes, it is. CHAIRMAN BYXHGVOH: And also -- COMMISSIONER PXTTLE: How is it attached, with a glue or -- MR. SIMP son s c. glv.e, with a particular -- it's a wood glue that ks1'; .es& in our -- in the making . of the fireplace. We a!ao v.rit to bond to the log it self . I) i i ! \ It i i itt I Ii 1 i; i I i ! i KMX 00943 135 1 Z brought on* with m if at any tin* someone 2 want* to taka a look at It. St** also, iC you look at 3 tha front of that pletar*, underneath that log th*re is 4 * llttl* dark area. that** wermloulite that** b*lng glued 5 to th* floor of th* fireplace and than sprayed with a 6 black enamel paint# to also aet an a reflector and simulate 7 bars. 8 CHAIRMAN BTXMGTOMt Okay, thank yon vary such, 9 Mr Sinpson. 10 MR. 8XHPS0Mt TO*. 11 12 2 <00. CHAXRMAH BTIMGTOHi Okay, can yon COM back at 13 Okay# va*ll adjourn until 2<00 o'clock, and than 14 **11 taka yon and Mr. Castlaaan and thosa two otbara. 15 (Whereupon, at 1*00 tha hearing vaa adjourned 16 for lunch) 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 KMX 00944 i - 3r r 136 _TE^KSOON S E S ,1 O K 2 CBAIRKAK BYIKGTOS 9 U. S. Consumer Product Safety 3 Commission, public meeting on asbestos, and for the 4. information, the public commission is scheduling for it- 5 " self in closed session a meeting late this afternoon to *6 I | discuss with Its lawyers legal situation relevant to the 7 recent appellate court decision on the Zris case. 8 And thsrefore we will attempt -- we've been 9 | 10 < ii achieving to wrap this up by 3*00, but we would be as -- attempt to be as close to 3s00* 3i30 as possible, so we can ' resume our meeting shortly thereafter. ' So we will now proceed, and hr. Robert Rauch < 13 of the Environmental Defense Fund, is next, end you want 14 to talk about eaberizing material. IS MR. RAUCH: Mr. Chairman, Commission. With ms 16 is Mr. Barry Castleman, whom you will be hearing from 17 independently a little bit later, who is acting and 18 | in his present capacity as a consultant. ' It | j & | 19 < 20 I want tc be fairly brief this afternoon because a number of these issues I have covered with you in 21 22 i 23 t I previous statements, but 1 est say in reviewing the news i release which was sent out c;;i the 21st of July, and . also in viewing subsequent publicity, there have been a j 2/ | i1 23 i : number of concerns which Lw-g been raised in ay mind, which X hope don't enfcircl", at least, come under the * j j j f KMX 00945 137 1 category of water vsdtr tha dai. 2i There ara toaa oooearaa which frankly X wish x 3 i haft aotlead earlier, and X guess -- X hopa you do whan you 4 hoar feham. I've reviewed tha various lattars vhioh you 5 solicited, to gat advice, hafora tha prsss ralaasa was 6 issued, and a number of thaa -- first of all saggastad 7 that tha praaa release, or infonation going to eonsurnara 6 oontainad aoaa naans for idsatifyiag whathar in fact tha 9 oonsnnar has aahaotos la tha fireplace. 10 low, you just hoard fron tha industry which 11 aanufaeturas alactrio fireplaces, which apparently utillsa 12 ernieulite# and frankly X don't think if you gava na a 13 firaplaca X oould tall you whathar it oontainad asbestos. 14 had X haws soon tha niaeral on a number of 15 oooasions. X'n just wondering how naay people at this 16 stage, given what tha Coamissioa has released, ean actually 17 deteraiae whathar they have asbestos in their firaplaea. 18 had furthermore, if they're in doubt whore do 19 they go to gat tha information* Mow, that eonearn was 20 raised by a number of different writers, and probably tha 21 stoat prominent of which is Hr. Wilkinson, who was tha 22 supervisory industrial hygienist from the Department of 23 H.E.W. 24 Tha second concern also raised by Mr. Wilkinson, 25 or Dr. Wilkinson, was that this operation should only be KM* 00946 138 t attempted by responsible, non sacking adults. Now, 2 Hr. Castleaan perhaps can add something to this, bet ay 3 understanding at loaat the reason for this is that 4 studies have shown that there is a very high incidence 5 of cancer and other fores of asbestos related disease in 6 those who saoke in addition to being exposed to asbestos. 7 X think Dr. Wilkinson has raised a very real 8 question here as to whether smokers should attespt the 9 renoval of these ashes. Again, soaething which fros what 10 I'vs seen was not reflected in the Commission's press 11 releases. 12 Now, the reason this is a particular concern 13 is contained in again Dr.Wilkinson*s letter, this is page 14 one, the sixth paragraph, and I'll just read it verbatia. 15 My own opinion is that responsible, non snoking adults 16 following specific instructions, can remove the asbestos 17 with a very minimum risk. 13 But then he goes on to cite what he believes 19 are the estimates of exposure. Hy estimate is that a 20 complete clean up can be done in lass than IS minutes 21 with a potential exposure to art air concentration that 22 could vary from one tenth million, that is four fibers 23 per cubic centimeter, to 10 million, that is 354 fibers 24 per cubic centimeter, per cutic foot. 25. Thea he paints out ir. 1576 OSK& limit, this is { I .i | KMX 00947 139 t the present one, for asbestos, is two fibers por cubic 2 centimeter with a colling exposure of 10 fibors por cable 3 centimeters. 4 Wow,Barry has informed so that OSHA has the 5 proposal oat right now to reduce those so that tho colling 6 concentration would bo flwe fibers per coble centimeter, 7 not to bo ereeeded in a 15 minute period. 8 Vow, what Dr. Wilkinson is saying here is that 9 daring the 15 minutes it's required to remove the ashes, 10 in his judgment a maximum of 354 fibers per cubic centimeter 11 could be released. Almost 70 times the OSHA proposal. 12 Vow, it was because of this information, this 13 estimate, that Dr. Wilkinson concluded that, "Before this, 14 or any other type of solution recommended publieally, I 15 believe it is imperative that it be tried out in some loca 16 tion in which the potential exposures can be documented 17 under different circumstances and unforeseen problems 18 worked out. 19 Vow, to my knowledge, and X would like to be 20 corrected, no such tests were conducted prior to the 21 test release was issued. How, believe me, I really regret 22 bringing these points up at this point, they certainly 23 should have been made much earlier, and to the extent that 24 X personally didn't make them earlier X'm sorry because X 25 certainly would have ! KMX 00948 , 140 1 Bat I think what may have happened here is that 2 in getting all of those letters, nost of which did conclude 3 that consumers could do it, we didn't take a close enough 4 look at some of the detailed observations, and if Dr. 5 Wilkinson is right about this exposure, and of eourse we 6 have no way of knowing, I assume itrs just an estimate 7 on his part, ws are talking about a single exposure, po8' tentially 70 times the OSHA ceiling. 9. . j J j 1 How, the last point as far as the instructions 10 go x wanted to make was made by Dr. O'Heal Banks, who 11 is the chief of the Maryland Bealth and Safety Industrial 12 Hygiene Department. 13 He pointed out a problem which the gentleman who 14 just preceded me didn't specifioally address but would 15 come up with his products, and that is that if you have 16 an electrical fireplace which has the veraiculite in it, 17 and do this by mistake, not knowing that it contains 18 ermiculite and asbestos, the application of water to these 19 electrodes or wiring or whatever is used, could pose a 20 problem. 21 And again X think the Commission's press release 22 did not point this out. Kov:r I don't know how serious | 23 the problem would be, but apparently Dr. Banks did feel that r j 24 it was po-centially a problem. Exactly how serious, I j 25 frankly don't know. t i KMX 009*9 141 Hut thM tr* four cpacifio concerns which we do have, and which did, of course, lead XDF up initially, yon know, to request that sou type of specialised teas he assigned to do this. Vow, I understand the reasons why the Connission did not adopt that suggestion, Adnittedly, all the advice she received suggested that honeowaers could do it thenselves, and the teens would have been expensive. However, we do feel, based on the inroaation Z just presented, that a nunbar of steps should be taken at this point. Munber one, we would reconnend that a test be run as suggested by three of the people who corresponded with you, and X can go over then. Or. Clark Cooper made this reeonnendation, Mr. Harrison Rhodes, fron whoa you heard earlier this morning, and of course Dr. Wilkin son . All of then indicated that a test was necessary before this was recommended, and I think given Dr. Wilkinson's estimates, particularly, there is a need to try it and to try it both with someone who would do it carefully and soaeone who would do it carelessly, as Dr. Cooper has suggested. To get an idea of just what are we talking about. In other words, you know, one of the points that I made earlier was that, for example, just a failure to i KMX 00950 142 i i 1 soak the ashes through sufficiently first, this is not ! 2 !J an area where ve can try trial and error. As soon as 3 soaaoDe pokes that plastic shovel in or whatever, and 4j lifts up the ashes, if it isn't soaked all the wav through 5 you could have a problem. e Z think it's this type of sort of carelessness t 1 7 that ve can expect of. At least we ought to Jtnow the e parameters of what we'ro talking about in terms of expo 8 sure . i t TO All right, the second suggestion, and this It really goes to the problem of how many people actually 12 know, despite the press release -- let me add, I haven't 13 reviewed all of the papers in the conntry, but the one 14 that X did see was the Kev York Times, and some of you 15 may have seen it. 16 It gave the story, barely two column inches, 17 l buried on a back page with the heading, who burns fires in IS July, or something to that effect. It was really rather >S comical in the heading. 20 And to my knowledge, at least;, the stories that 21 I have seen, none cf then have actually printed the in 22 structions. Now, perhaps you all have seen stories to 23 that effect. We generally review this through national 24 newspapers, but it concerns rso that even if it was 25 covered, how are people supposed to gat these instructions; i 1 KMX 00951 i 143 t Bo tk* second step that we are going to sug9est 2 ie that at least for those manufacturers and distributors 3 that do hare records --so*, admittedly it's probably 4 not a large number, but you ask them to notify purchasers 5 of whom they have reeords. It won't be everyone, but 6 you'll get at least some of them. 7 I suspect, although X have no way of proving, 8 that a lot of people still don't know about this, and it's 9 very wasy for us in dealing with this constantly because 10 we've been exposed to it over and over, to think that 11 somehow everyone else is learning about it too. 12 But as we all know, that is not necessarily the 13 ease. 14 Third, and this is undoubtedly the most contro 15 versial, we still would like to see at least for people 16 who smoke and for the elderly, the option of calling a 17 central number and getting someone else to do the removal. 18 Now that someone else doesn't necessarily have to be a 19 separate, specially formed team. 20 It occurred to me this morning that perhaps a 21 local fire department who's used to handling dangerous 22 materials might be able to do it. There are a number of 23 people who could do it, presumably who would take the care, 24 they could understand the instructions, where a person 25 either because they smoke, because they're elderly, may not KMX 00952 144 1j 2 ( 21 I 4 II 5 6 7 8 t ID ; 11 i -t `I la i ,, i. 13 14 15 16 17 be able to do so. ' Fourth, V0 would hope that you would make, once the tests are completed, and assuming that they are completed satisfactorily, another effort to republicise this problem, and the steps that are needed to correct it. One thing which X think would be very dramatic, and X don't know whether any of you have considered it, but X think it would be very effective, if one of the commissioners themselves was filmed removing these ashes, from a fireplace. How, X say that really not in jest because a lot of people may take the attitude, well, it's fine for you people in Washington, without gas fireplaces, to tell us bow to do it. But have any of you ever done it your-* selves? Frankly, X would pause myself before I tried it. X would be very, very careful, Had X daresay that many, IS; many people who are.going to try it don't have as much 19 information as I do. 20 X think also, and X understand that your office 21 of media relations has taken a number of steps to publicise 22 it, that perhaps distribal1 ioa of a film, whether you're a 23 Commissioner or someone cl:;:.and you're doing it, radio spots could be utilised. My point, very sir??!" .is this. I don't think KtfX 00953 145 the ia*M of praai ralaua alone Is enough to do it. Wa'ra talking aboat 500 to 500,000 hones, presumably, that have these in then. X would be very, very surprised if more than five to 10,000 of then were removed as of this point, it's jest a wild guess but X would be very surprised, hn effort of this magnitude requires a continuing effort and one X think in this case probably needs some modifica tion . had let me just say la closing that despite these concerns, BDF is very pleased by the Section 8 ban which is being proposed by the Connissloa. We're pleased that the effective date is, when the final regs do cone out, and we think that you hava taken a number of very important steps. And X don't mean by this criticism to suggest that you haven't done anything, or at least we're not moving in the right direction. At this time X'd be bsppy to answer any questions, and refer the scientific ones to Barry. CHAIRMAN BYXNGTOHI First of all, Robert, are you aware that the press release is not the only part of the program? MR. RA0CH: Yes, Z am, right. CHAIRMAN BYINGTONi Because your statement KMX 00954 146 I indicates that you felt a press release by itself was not 2 sufficient. 3 MR. RAUCRt Right, X do understand that other 4 steps have been taken. I don't know exactly how it 5 stands -- ' 6 CHAIRMAN BYIHGTON* The Commission agrees with 7 yon that a press relsase was not `efficient, and the office 8 of communications have taken a broad approach to dealing 9 with this program through a large nuaiber of media with 10 a whole series of programs, short of a film. 11 MR. RAUCHt YS8. 12 COMMISSIONER KUSHNBR* Just wanted to ask for a 13 clarification of the -- your suggestion number two, which 14 followed from your observation that the newspapers hadn't 15 givea the Commission's press release very much play, and 16 I guess what you are suggesting got by ms by way of the 17 Commission's getting in touch with manufacturers -- 18 MR. RAUCH* Right. 19 COMMISSIONER KUSHNER: -- of distributors. 20 MR. RAUCHt Yes. 21 COMMISSIONER KUSHKSRr And I didn't know what you 22 wanted us to do - 23 MR. RAUCH t I - 24 COMMISSIONER KUSiUiSF;: And what we're suggesting 25 in that connection KMX 00955 ) 147 t HR. RAUCHi Right X think the firet step would 2 he to get in feonoh with both nan ufactsurer* end distributors. 3 As X understand it from the Fireplace Institute's letter 4 to you* there are eons vendors that sand out warrany cards, 5 sons of which presunably haws boon returned* and which 6 could bo used at least as a start to begin reaching some 7 people. / 8 X think at the sane tine* of course* these 8 aanufacturers* and particularly distributors* could be 10 urged to send out the Instructions with notification, as 11 well as perhaps post signs in their outlets. X don't know 12 hew often people would return to then* but in other words 13 have none way at the local level to reach these people 14 who have the fireplaces . ^------- 15 X just -- X oould be oonpletely wrong* but X 16 don't think at least the national nedia ooverage I've 17 seen * has been very effaetive. And there nay have been a 18 lot more that X haven't seen* but X haven't been -- when X 19 eaw this little story in the Vines, as X said* X was rather 20 disturbed. 21 C0KMX8SX0HBR PXTTLSi I've had a concern about 22 not seeing very nany stories nyself, and X asked the 23 director of our nedia relations. Barb Coster, to keep a 24 separate file on all the clippings that cane in on this 25 story KMX 00956 148 li it tutu out bt wu already doing that, bo didn't nood no to onggoot it, but X think tboro'o a strong Cooling on tho part of tho Commission to roally nako sure vrthat -- at loaot in oy mind, any it's an opon question. If it dooon't suocood than we can got Tory many people* to bo aware of it, through tho print nodia and possibly - something through tho electronic media* we're going to have to try something else* NR. RAUCHx TOS. COMMISSIONER PIfTLBx X completely agree with you that with 300,000 homes, or whatever the exact number is, that a two inoh story but it turns out there are some -- you just weren't reading some of the other, bigger news papers. Because there have been some fairly good sised articles, at least according to his file, that's growing by the day. MR. RAUCHt Yes. Rave they inoluded the instruc tions, Commissioner Pittie? COMMISSIONER PlTTLEt That depends on who's got the space at the time they print the article, and that's something we have no control over. MR. RAUCHt Yes, I understand, I was just cur ious . COMMISSIONER PITTI.E: But the reason why they KMX 00957 149 I aren't there is of no value to us if -- in being satisfied 2 tkat tkat*a all 4* -- 3 MX. XXOCXt TO*. 4 COMXZ88XOXXR PITTWIi Because tboro say bo some 5 way to gat those things published at a cost. But they 6 111 have to bo done now. 7 MX. XXOCXt Too, X was just oonoerned that some 8 how we don't let this natter rest with the initial effort 8 that was made, particularly if we find that not as nueh 10 is happening as we had hoped* 11 X think that this is - it is a serious problem. 12 When X first eaue to you we thought this night be, you 13 know, 20 or 30,000 fireplaces. But the Fireplace Institute 14 wae saying 300 to 500,000. Ton talk about an average 15 household of three people you're talking about potentially 16 1,500,000 people that are .exposed. 17 C0MMX38X0BBR PITTtBj That's with the fireplace, 18 but not necessarily with asbestos enberising materials 19 laying underneath, is that -- or do you believe-- 20 MB. XXOCXt X thought the estimate was-- 21 COMMISSIONER PITTZ.R > >-*- that athere's a one to 22 one relationship? 23 MR. RAOCRi Well, I thought the estimate covered 24 asbestos containing kits. It's right in here. 25 Xt says here, in the past four or five years. KMX 00958 t ISO 1 an estimated 300 to 500,000 fireplace log/ash 'kits have 2 bean sold. There wars 31 manufacturers of gas logs in 3 '72, in 1977 there are nine known manufacturers. 4 COMMZ88 ZOM1R PZTTXAt So -- 5 NR. RAOCHi So it's unclear, bet Z think it's 6 elaar that the tenor of the letter is about asbestos ashes. 7 Z think ve could eheek with the Fireplace Institute easily 8 enough and find out for sure. 9 CBkIRMAS STISOTORi I don't naan to be defensive 10 about our eonnuaieations program, but I think for the 11 record ve ought to indicate that nov all the Connission 12 feel as you do in terns of getting the word out. But there 13 has been a lot of other things. 14 One, there has been a whole series of picture 15 grans that are going out to weeklies that can run this 16 type of thing. 17 MR. BAUCHt Yes. 18 CHAIRMAN BYIMGTOH* Shat you won't see in the 19 normal dailies, but will cover a great peroentage of the 20 households in America through weeklies. 21 MR. RAOCHi Tea. 22 CHAIRMAN BYZHGTOM t There has also been a major 23 effort to get radio copy to radio stations and to try and 24 get ~ you can't get the instructions and it was generally 25 agreed by most lawyers that you can't use the broadcast ! KMX 00959 151 1 Mdla my vail to toll people or show pooplo how to do It 2 because they M*d NMfeklBf in thoir hands. So tho ofort 3 horo again van to got pooplo to eall no or writo ns and 4 got tho inatrootiono froo no. 5 MR. RAUCHi Too. 6 CHAIRMAN BYZMGTOM* SO Z think a fair analysis 7 ooght to be, which io what I bopo wo'ro trying to do, it's 8 a littlo difficult in tho way it operates, bnt it koops 9 sono track on how many calls we* re getting and nnnbcrs to vo*ro sanding out in tarns of onr hotline and other areas 11 as well. 12 MR. RAUCH* res. 13 CHAXRKAH BYIMGYON* Pins wo*wo used oonsnnor 14 organisations and eonsnaer affairs officers and tho 15 state and local level across the country to try and dis 16 tribute that. 17 And we've got no way of knowing how successful 18 some of those sight be* or are. 19 MR. RACCBt Mr. Chairnan, I lidn't really nean 20 to suggest by that that your nedia office had not been 21 doing anything, and x was nade aware this norning of sons 22 of the things you were doing. 23 X think ny only concern is that sone effort be 24 ade on a continuing basis to find out just how effective 25 this is, if at all possible, such as the file and nonitoring t KMX 00960 152 1- and so forth, and then if it appears that further efforts 2 are necessary to keep an open Bind on them. j j | 3 CHAIRMAN BYZHGVOn: 1 a^rca, Z don't think we can j 4 rely on the Tinea to get the ash out. | 5 I1 .I HR. R&OCHt X would -- ii I said* the first point j 6 X nade about actually testing this, Z think- frankly would j 7 be a good idea, giventhe fact thatthree of your coanen- j 8 tutors did. strongly suggest. Ineluding the tern inperstive j 9 at one point, before we got too hueh further with this ' 10 ' . program. ; Lt J, 1! The test would be sinple enough. ' 12 CHAIRMAN BYIHGTON: Hell, that's not what we're i 13 told -- ' 14 MR. RAUCHt Really? 'it 15 CHAIRMAN BTINCTONt We're told it will take 16 a mininun of three nonths by the tine you conduct it, run 17 itr and cone back with any kind of analysed results worth 18 looking at. IS ! And one of the reasons why I certainly voted not 20 to do the testing was because I wasn't interested in 21 waiting three nonths, and if I'm told three nonths I'll -. 22 guarantee it will probably run four or five. 23 But I'm just uot interested in running -- in ' . j j 24 waiting for anywhere froot Sore to six nonths, whatever the ^ 25 figure happens to be, two months, three months, five nonths, KMX 00961 1S3 to Mlt ufl mo whether or not or what the concentration la shea the basic thing u to fat it oat. hod -- MR. RAOCHi Well* X'* certainly aot oae to suggest the Coaaleaioa should delay# as you oertaialy know, but X would hate to thlak that the eure la this ease was worse than the problem. had you had had three fairly respeoted people whea you solicited their views# tell you you needed to do that* had as X Mid -- CRAXRMAS BTXCT0*J We also had 15 others the* didn't thlak so. X aeaa# yea know# we got 20 iom responses* X guess# is the problem. MR. RAOCHi Yes* X*wa looked at them# and X thlak that# you know# some people obviously didn't even think of It. X guess it's aot a question of then saying you shouldn't do it# it Just didn't oeour to then. Ton know# X don't know if -- X can't imagine it taking three months to run a test. Wests were run on the Rockville asbestos probleu with the roads in a such shorter time than that* X mean* it's aot that difficult, had these would be under much more controlled conditions. Again* it's some advice that at some point X hope we don't find out that this is a serious problem. C HAIRMAS BYIHGTOH: Okay* thank you very such* fir. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 8 10 11 12 13 14 IS 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25' Ranch KMX 00962 154 i ? MR. RAUCH: Thank you. CBAXRMAtf BYIRGTOK: Mr. Castleman. MR. CASTLEMRK 2 The statetsents Z have to Bake at this point are my own, they 4o not represent anybody else, I have worked on produet liability suits against the asbestos industry and z think it's important for the Cou~ mission to understand ths larger contest of its ban in tarma of protoeting people from asbostos hasards. And hew wa got into this fix we're in in the first place, and why a product liability law is proving totally inadequate to protect consumers, and why baas of this sort are really needed. Up until this tine, the only reeourse a consumer had under the law was the right to sue aanufacturers after he was injured, and this just hasn't been very protective. t 5 } The latency of a disease usually on the order of 30 years or more froa the tine of the person's being injured, and fron the tine that whoever sold hin the product made a buck for selling it to him. And there are now hundreds of thousands of people who are expected to devolcp cancer, and are developing tt | i cancer, as a result of exposure to asbestos products. Most of these people wore not warned that the products that they handled wore any hazard to then. KMX 00963 155 1 TIm first tlM that Z know of any asbestos 2 product bearing hasArd warning was 1964, and that was 3 insulation notarial, and tha warnings ware put on only 4 after Selikoff'a landmark paper was published shoving that 5 something like 40 pareent of the work force was getting 6 wiped out by occupational cancer and asbeatosis. 7 There were many ease reports earlier going back 8 to 1933, the first ease reports of asbestosis, among insula 9 tion workers. And it was well known at that tine that 10 asbestosis was a fatal disease. 1! A lack of hasard labeling on asbestos insulation 12 is analagous to the lack of labeling on asbestos containing 13 dry wall patching compounds. Dry wall patching compounds, 44 to the best of my knowledge, bore no hasard labeling 15 until 1975. 16 And the manufacturers made no effort to determine 17 the entent of the asbestos hasard that the product*s use 18 entailed, leaving this, instead, to be done by unions and 19 medioal researchers, and the products endangered the 20 general public as well, not just the work force that applied 21 them. 22 And, finally, substitutes were always available. 23 The asbestos industry's failure to clean up its manufactur 24 ing plants and to warn its customers about product hasards, 25 the industry's unwillingness to conduct proper studies of KMX 00964 156 1 1 hasardous of asbestos# and I'm talking about in the 1930s 2 and 1940s when they started to find out about this from 3 \i other sources# and they probably knew about It long before 4 that, has led to the proliferation of asbestos hazards 5 1 that will be with us for the next 100 yeers. 6 i ~' had X am enclosing a statement for the record 7 which X originally wrote in response to a proposed bill 8 t i on national product liability# and it goes through some of 9 the history in the asbestos industry# and X won't read the >. 10 i f whole thing. I'll just sort of skip through It and pull l 11 > j some parts out of it as I go. 12 Asbestosis was recognised toy Pliny the Younger# \ 1 13 \ a Soman historian of the first century A.D.. The Romans ' 14 noticed -- this was slaves weaving asbestos, and they 15 noticed that they were using up these slaves awfully fast# 16 17 and no matter how much they whipped than they couldn't get them to work. And they figured out it must be asbestos J t\\i t 18 i they were breathing that was killing them. - IS ! And they even provided respirators for these 20 slaves. Kow, in 1918 the C. S. Department of Labor Statis 21 tics monograph mentions that the insurance industry had 22 already picked up on the t'a.ct that asbestos workers were ( i 23 at risk of fatal disease to the extent that it wasn't a 24 good idea to bet money cr. them living, that they were 25 declined for life insurance by the insurance companies i KMX 00965 IS? based or tbs little data that was available to thee. That was sis years before the first case of as- bestosis was published ia the madieal literstore. And as 1 mentioned* the first ease of asbostosis aeon? a product *aer# that is a aaa who worked with laselation materials, I suppose someoae who worked ia a manufacturing plant/ was published ia 1913* aad that was la the American literature. There was also two oases published la the British literature ia 1914. In 1942 a couple of oases were published la Bow York/ iasulatioa workers who had both lung oanoer aad aabesteals* Oae -of these men was employed with a major asbostosis company* mcordlng to the medieal ^article, up uatil a few months before he died, and his asbestosis killed him in a very short time. If he hadn't developed lung cancer, according to the article* according to the last few years of life, he was almost completely exhausted after climbing one flight of stairs* aad he had frequent bouts of coughing day aad night. And it's pretty amasiag that the asbestos industry never did nay studies on the product, on the users of its products, such as these insulatioh workers, before 1964* The industry did publish a few things in the literature, but they weren't very well designed studies, and they were generally defensive in nature. When I was KMX 00966 158 I writing ay master's thesis on nodical literature of ashes .* 2 tos in 1971( X knew nothing about the politics of scientific 3 articles and how they get published and who wants to publish 4 what to protect hlasclf. j ! 5 But X was 8truck by the fact that there Were two 6 camps; there seemed to be one group of people that were 7 always getting positive results and another group of people 8 that were always getting negative results, and asking new . 9 questions that seemed to try and get everybody off the 10 track, of the fact that the staff vas out there killing 11 people. . 1: j12 Bow, the marketing of some of these products that 13 | have caused academics of asbestos, probably would never I 14 | have occurred had the industry done the kinds of studies IS that it should have done in the 1930s, and this is the 4 reason I'm saying all of this. . 1? A lot of these problems never would have arisen. A good example is the use of sprayed fireproofing insula 1! tion, which was introduced in the 1950s, and they had snow21 falls in the streets of Hew York from all the sprayed fire >A. proofing material being blown onto the girders of buildings , ' 2 i being constructed every three blocks, another 60 etory i' . 2 ji building with the stuff being sorayed all over .the place. it 2 ! : There was no way could enclose it, and the stuff was eventually banned in 1973 by the Environmental ' ` I ti , i ' I ; i KMX 00967 1S9 1 Protection *90*07. *t thorn wore millions of people who 2 worked in those buildings, trades workers, there were 3 other people walking hj who were exposed to this asbestos. 4 This is a prodnot that newer shonld have been sold in the 5 first plaoe, and now that people are starting to get asbes 6 tos is fro* hawing worked with it, it*a .problem to even 7 find ont that's become of the companies that manufactured 6 it. 9 had of 00arse there's the residual problem of 10 the asbestos material that is spraysd on the insides of 11 boildings and in duct work, and now as with the OIC& dormi 12 tories and the school house in bander, Wyoming, and this 13 is an article about the Tale architecture building had 14 ; f to be coapletely renovated. This is in the medical liters- ;r IS turn of hew that was done. 16 ' X*m sura your staff has a copy of this. This 17 is quite a mess, we're stuok with all these buildings 18 hawing this material and it's not just a hasard, it's to 19 the people who built those buildings. 1 20 Mow, I've gone through 30 years of back issues 21 of asbestos magasines, and used other sources, to try and i 22 run down some of the products that have been sold, and 23 I X think we'll eventually find large populations at risk 24 from such things as dry vail compounds, certainly, 25 textured paints, flooring, backings. ; KMX 00968 160 1 Armstrong makes a flooring backing' that contains * 2 asbestos, so if you have to rip the flooring off, vinyl - 3 flooring off of a floor, then you've got to find some way 4' of scraping or sanding that backing, and the backing 5 needn't contain asbestos, I would think. e Asbestos has also been used in tobacco and 7 cigarette filters. There's even an article in the nodical e literature on people who developed asbestosis fron making s cigarette filtera. It was need for filtering intravenous 10 drugs until about a year and a half ago when the Food 11 and Drug Administration took the suggestion of the 12 Environmental Defense Fund to deal with that problem. 13 And children's modeling compound is the only 14 product I know of that the asbestos industry has said, ; 1 15 does not contain asbestos. And it was in 1971, the 16 Asbestos Information Association put out a press release 17 and told a whole lot of people who run bureaus of education, 18 things like that, that they should get rid of any of these 19 materials and not use asbestos to make paper mache and 20 this stuff. 21 And that came out of 22 East 40th Street, which 22 is the 6ase address as the Johns-ftanville corporate head 23 quarters. And in 1976 heard of a woman who was making 24 clay modeling compounds using Johns-Manvilie asbestos, so it seems as if the companies haven't been effective in ! i f t KMX 00969 2.61 I eoatrolllftf thM hatizdi on their ova. 2 Oktji no 1*11 Jut nontloa that product liability 3 first of all ia tbs sass of oonsuaars is vary oftsn un 4 recognised. In tbs sass of psopls vho vorksd with thsso 5 prodaets ofton, it is recognised and it's bacons a rather 6 substantial throat to sobs Bsabsrs of tha asbestos indus 7 try. 8 This is a 10K fora froB the dohns-Manwille Corpora 9 tion. They Bsatioa that as of March of this year they 10 wars tha dafaadaat or co-defeadaat ia 271 suits alleging 11 daaaga to tha health of parsons exposed to asbestos. 1 12 Most of these are produot liability suits froa asbestos r 13 for insulation workers, vho were newer warned that the 14 stuff could kill then, and vho are now dying. 15 This -- the threat of all these lawsuits has 16 apparently been taken quite seriously by industry. This is 17 a bill. B.R. 8689, was proposed by Coagressvoaaa Millicent 18 Fenwick on August the 2nd, 1977, a week or so ago, two 19 weeks ago. j" 20 And this bill is called the Asbestos Health 21 Hasard Coapensation Act, and this is going to be a coupon- 22 nation net just to pay off people vho get asbestos disease. j t 23 And the part that strikes me is section 205, which reads . 24 in part, no person or persons entitled to file a elaia ]> 25 for benefits pursuant to a provision to this act, shall c c \ KMX 00970 x92 M 2 3 4. 5. . 6; 71 8 9 10;' 1V 12 ; 13 \Ah be allowed to recover against the Manufacturer, distributor, seller* contractor* or applicator of asbestos materials. So that might be the end of product liabilities* if that thing gets passed. X haven't had a chance to read that bill over thoroughly* X just received it, but part of it does strike me. CBAXKMAH BTIHGTOH* la the interests of time could you summarise* deal with the areas that directly relate these two baas with this meeting* end then any other products. We will continue to appreciate any more information that yon have. MB. CASTLKKAHi Okay. How* the absence of any members of the asbestos industry to testify today*except for Onion Carbide* suggests to me that the Industry is IP i- 1.6 17 IS r 19 .20 weelly decided that this product, this dry wall patching compound* should not be made with asbestos. And X have some remarks about the carbide data that you received on July the 14th* dated July the 14th. l first note that this is data from an interested party, as was the earlier data sent in by the Asbestos Information 21 Association . 22-; 23: ! X did not know until today that the person who did the job was the -- was a chairman of an asbestos 24 information association standards committee, and the person chiefly responsible for selling asbestos to you. to r t KMX 00971 163 1 eoiswmra of dry vail patoh lag compounds. 2 Shore la ao attoapt that 1 oeald aaa to squara 3 thla vlth tha valaaa roportod by hohl ia tba Rohl papar. 4 Z point oat thla papar had to undergo pear review prior to 5 baiag published, and eertalaly Aoea not, eontaln aoae of 6 the vary qaaatloaabla aapoota Z will allada to in tha 7 Uaioa Carbide aabaiaaioa. 8 They vaod optieal aiaroaaopy, oat of doora and 9 ia tha home, for dataraiaiag baekgroand aabaatoa levels. 10 This la totally iaapproprlata a vay of diaeoverlag back- 11 groaad levela. Thla la a very aoarae method, >oaly measures * 12 oae fiber ia 100 or oao ia 1000, from what's there. ' 13 had yet even with thla aoarae method, if yoa 14 take a look at the data yoa*ll aee higher valves for r 15 'a the aabaatoa levels Inside the house than outside tha 16 house, and there was nothing natural about the asbestos 17 levela inside the house, and the use of this term in the it 18 eovar letter, and a description of the house as a typical 19 residence is misleading. 20 the house had had a dry vail job ia 1968, and 21 a bathroom renovation in 1975, vlth extensive use of f c 22 t' asbestos containing patching coapounds, in both cases, ; 23, c and sawing and drilling of asbestos oeaent sheathing 24 ia the latter job to fashion bathtub enclosures. ; [ 25 Then they had a gas log installed in*68 with 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 I 12 i3: 14 .f 15 1 16 J KMX 00972 164 asbestos on it. Operator and area samples vara taken during the nixing of the powder with the water, nixing, of the spackling compound with water* But the operator's exposure during this 17 minute step mentioned on page 3 was not reported. . Zt appears to have been Included in one of the eight hour tine waited averages. The peak value that this person had during the 17 ainute step is not reported itself. I'd like to know what that exposure was. The tine waited average is for sanding, ware both computed on the basis of oonsumsr spending something like six or so of the eight hour# outside of the house, as you pointed out that*s probably not the sort of indicator that you would want to use in deciding whether there's an acceptable risk. 18 19 20 k 2i *2:;i j 23 .* You'd want to look at the more -- if that's a very foreseeable, that the consumer stays in his house. And you would get values then of several tines as high ns the ones reported in the cover letter. And this is tho sort of thing that would never get published is a scientific journal. Carbides claim that there was not a multiplicity of shorter, narrow r fibers that were missed by optical methods is not supported I j: by data. s) r ii9 L C \ KMX 00973 165 Z um't HMr kam't tMd * chases to look through what they've broifht 1b today very oar*fully, but X doa't believe they brought 1b aay data about alaotron Biaroaoopy by way of saylag, for exaaple, bow many flbars you saa by alaatroa aieroseopy for ovary ono you would count by optical aloroaeopy. Bad this was r*ported by dolikoff as balag 200 to aaarly 1000 -- aot Sellkoff# lohl, by baiag la tha raago of 200 to 1000 So tbat*s for ovary ono you saa by optieal aieroseopy# you*d find that aany aora if you looked at it aader an eleetrea aiorosaopo. had Bllkoff's poopla usad a 25,000 power aagnifleation transaission oloctron aieroscopa. Tb*y ara also tha world's loading authorities on analytical aathods for asbestos, and so X would# having no other data# have to assuaa that tha 200 to 1000 aultiplier applies in this oasa as wall as in tha easa of tha paper that they pub lish. Saanning electron aieroseopy ean bo used to aagnlfleation of 15#000 power# Carbide pointed out# in their oral statement today# they said 20#000. They only daseribad one saapla that they looked at at all, in tha 15,000 power, and the sanple was described as nunber M30. And I'd like to know what kind of sanple that was and X'd like to know nore about what they saw under that KMX 00974 166 microscope. Their method for 6*M analysis appears to be limited to the 1500 to 2000 pover range. This is a new method they're talking about developing, and this is only several times more powerfnl than an optical microscope, whleh runs at about 400 pover. why don't they use 15,000 power and count more fields? What way they'll really see what's there, or at least they'll see a lot more what's there. The saanning electron microscope technique used makes a millipore filter into a thin film before scanning, for fibers. Well, fibers that were trapped in the middle of that filter, when a filter gets collapsed, are going to wind up in the middle of that film. And they might be hidden from view from a scanning eleotron microscope if the -- the scanning electron microscope sees about the top micron of surface, according to people X consulted, and if the fiber le a small fiber, especially, but at any rate if it's under the top micron, surface, the scanning electron microscope is not going to see it. And so this method will underoount fibers, and it will especially underoount real small fibers. X'd like to know how thick the film was, that they looke dat, under the scanning eleotron microscope, after it was collapsed prior to being put under the microscope. KMX 00975 167 X*we also boas told that allllporo filtor material is easily damaged by oloetroa beams, asd trolling of tho film woold impede analysis. Zs contrast, noelopero filters aro not so offooted. the samples could have boon a tramaferred to muelepore filters with deposition of tho 6 asbestos fibers entirely on the filtor surface. 7 Was strolling a problem* was transfer considered, 8 bow temperature ashing would bewo remowed the millipore 9 filter remains* making it easier to wiow tho fibers. 10 Tot no mention of the use of ashing appeared in the re 11 port. 12 Sow, if we used the figures of Sob ot al of 13 200 to 1000 small fibers for ewery one you*d count with 14 tho optical microscope* and tho number -- tho peak number 15 reported by Carbide* tho number of fibers you cose up 16 with. 17 Carbide reported 300,000 large fibers, physical 18 asd optical microscope, on a time waited average basis, 19 that was tho marimum they reported. 20 And so from the Mount Sinai paper, that means 21 there were six million to 30 million asbestos fibers 22 per cubic meter of air, total fibers. The awerage K t 23 persons breaths about one cubic meter, a little less than 24 that, per hour. 25 And these amounts of asbestos certainly r. I'- 't it 1 2 3 4 5; 6 7 8 9: 10 It if 12 r %b\ 14 *a 1 5' . lk KMX 00976 I6fi not Borul background levels for tho hone as Carbide has maintained. When Carbide or its oonaareial custoners for asbestos fiber sake a product that does not expose con- sonars to asbestos levels above normal backgroand, I would agree that's no basis for banning the product as a con sumer baserd. but this is not such a produot. - It's mot mentioned whether the product used for US Gypsum is made from asbestos from Union carbide's nines. X understand the carbides, asbestos is fiber of an unusual ly small dimension # and this is the fiber in the product it would be especially difficult to get neaningful measures of exposure with optical microscopy. The product was made in 1974 and took three years to reach the consumer, X know. Was U.S. Gypsum a customer " for carbide asbestos in 1973, *74? 18 19 20 2.1 :* 22 23 24 23 ji The dry wall job vac reportedly done by a typical oonsumer. Was the consumer wearing a respirator. I'm thinking now about the -- not the job that was done by Mr. Rhodes, but the job that was done by the other carbide employee. And I*m thinking, if I were an employee of Union Carbide and X were doing a job on ay bouse, what would go through my head while X was doing the job, and might the nature of the job X do be affected by the fact KMX 00977 169 1 that there's all this monitoring equipment around. 2 hnd th fact that Z worked for a company that 3 la obviously looking Cor a eartain raault fron the testing. 4 The highest exposure raportad was that of* a paracn who 5 watohad tha work oloaa This shows oaa way that tha riak 6 la traaaaittad to othar aaabara of the hoaaahold. 7 Oaa of flhar ahapad aabatltutaa for aabaatoa 8 la not necessary, aa aoaa produeta on tha aarkat for yaara 9 have not had flbroaa ingredients. Mon fibergenic, non 10 carcinogenic formulations alraady exist. 11 Tha ooaoara over flbroaa olaya la primarily a 12 >- raault of fehair lapaadlag aabatltatioa for aabaatoa, aot 13 a raault of doouaaatod baaltb affaeta that ara caused 14 by tbaaa aubataaeaa. it la ualikaly that any aubatltuta 15 for aabaatoa now bolag ooaaidarad will rival it aa a haalth 16 t haaard to ataa. 17 Carblda baa aakad tha Commlaaion for a one pareant 18 Halt on aabaatoa and dry wall patching compounda, however 19 no data waa eoppliad to the extant of aabaatoa, that 20 these eoapouada would aatail. 21 Moreover, no raaaon la offered for why tha 22 Coaaieaioa should deem compounds of more than one percent 23 aabaatoa as unacceptable, yet allow one percent asbestos 24 la these eoapouada. 25 I would personally thick that the risk to r t- I f- l'- KMX 00978 170 eoMomtt Is tbs sum order of magnitude. whether you have oao peroant asbestos in tbe product or three or four percent, and it*s not 90lag to -- you're not going to reduce tbe risk by one hundredfold by going down a few pereeat in tbe asbestos. Carbide's other regnant to tbe Coanission was to require earning labels on all snob compounds, whether packaged for ooenereial or eonsuner use. X believe they would put warning labels on these products voluntarily any way, if only to protect themselves from product liability 1 suits. \ But since they like to calculate time waited averages on tbe basis of the consumer being out of the t house, perhaps they'd be willing to put a warning label that tells the consumer to get out of the house when he gets through speckling his house. h one percent limit would enable manufacturers to work off existing stocks, with higher asbestos contents, by dilution. Unlike a ban on asbestos, this would mean there is really no economic impact on the industry. Of course the public health risk would be extended indefinitely with a one percent level of asbestos allowed. Bov. I've even tried to calculate what it's worth to the industry to be able to go on selling asbestos for uss in thess compounds. bov much money they would make KMX 00979 171 i from It, u4 how taif people would probably dim urn a re 2 sult. 3 tad !' triad to vac ladvatty figures. Kith 4 tta tabaatoa Information taaoolatloa ramata that about 5 10,000 tota cabcatoa vara used in tapa joints and 6 inllar eoaipounda in 197S, and following publicity after 7 tho Mount Sinai * nodical group papor in taguat *75, use 8 of asbestos in sueb produets Mas declined* 9 And Johns-naawille, the largest asbestos eonpany TO in the western heuisphere, stopped selling asbestos for 11 use in tape and patching oonpounds in 1976. Johns-Maaville 12 attorneys were no doubt mindful of their eonpany's poten 13 tial liability in the event of a bad recall order on 14 dry- wall patching oonpounds containing Johas-Manville 15 asbestos. r 16 Such ban had been reguested by the natural 17 Resouroes Defense Council in its petition, and the Com- f8 nlssion voted three to two to instead pursue a baaon 19 the Consumer Product Safety Act. 20 Since 1976 that has become a part of Johns-Manville 21 policy not to sell asbestos fiber for what they called 22 inappropriate uses, and therefore the sale of fiber for 23 speckling compounds, joint compounds, has been discontinued. 24 The only firm pushing for continued permission to use 25 asbestos and dry wall patching compounds is Onion Carbide,. KMX 00980 172 1 z 3 4 5 6 f B 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 .1? 18 IS 20 21 22 23 z: 22 whose California asbestos nines constitute a miner source v j t of income for the nation 's second largest chemical companies. ) It's not swan mentioned intheir annual report, the word i , asbestos. Unlike Johns'-Manville, Carbide doas not have an enornous caseload of product liability, worker's compen i } I 1 i t sation, and other asbestos disease litigation at this tine. bet we assone that everybody but Union Carbide f ft stopped selling asbestos for use in dry vail patching compound, and make an estimate of what this business would be worth to Union Carbide. } I As noted, the industry estimates for the market are 10,000 tone per year, before the has&rds were reported in the scientific literature, and before pressure was brought on public agencies to --on this agency to ban this product. i | s i -v The Asbestos Information Association estimated an average asbestos content fox dry wall patching compounds ;< St is three percent, and Carbide wants the Commission to approve of compounds of ocs percent asbestos for continued sale. So an outside octiaate of the remaining market i for asbestos in these products at the one percent level might be 3000 tone per year. Onion Carbide's asbestos is KMX 00981 173 1 short, thin fibor with an approximate sale nlw of $50.00 2 m tea. Aid at this price, uanifa that Carbide has the 3 aatlra market, that is that nobody else would sell asbestos 4 for those purposes, the aaaaal asbestos sales for patching 5 compounds would be $150,000.00. 6 Carbide's 1076 rate of return was seven percent 7 net lnooas on sales, so we*re talking about a net inoone 8 of $10,500.00. they have over 150,000 stockholders, so 9 the return of the sale of the >000 tons of asbestos per 10 year amounts to seven eents per stockholder, per year. 11 Or. Sellkoff suggested that If the products 12 are not banned, the goveraaent night consider just giving 13 the $10,000.00 to the stockholders of Union Carbide and 14 ' let them keep the asbestos. 15 On the other side, the Conniesion has estinatad 16 that the lung eaneer risk is between 10 and 2000 per 17 nillion. Zn other words, with each exposure, consuner 18 incurs a life tine lung cancer risk of between one in 19 100,000 and one in 500. 20 the Commission's risk estimate does not take 21 account of risks of other forma of cancer, such as 22 nesathelioaa, however X do not believe that there is yet 23 sufficient data to calculate the risk with much assurance 24 as a guess, an expert guess, if you will, i would use a 25 figure of one in 10,000 as a total cancer risk for a job F KMX 00982 174 1 2 of 24 boors os described In the risk estlnate. . kith the caveat that it'e probably within the 3 I t 4 range of 10 tines as auch to 10 times as little that figure A way of eonfirning sonatbing that gives ae sone assurance 5I | that X'a in the right ballpark is to assune that the risk 6 j is linear with dose, that is, if ;o take this chance five 7 tines you have five tines ae risk as you do if you're doing 8 it once. ? tiI. And this is 24 hours of exposure. So let's assune !0 that sonehody works with the stuff 24 hours a week, does It it 50 weeks a year, so he takes the risk SO tines per year, 12 that's a one in 10,000 risk tines 50, and let's say he 13 does it for 20 years, that's 1000 tines he takes a one in 14 10,000 risk. 15 So as a very rough figure It's one in 10, his 16 risk would be after doing this for 20 years. And that 17 seems, roughly speaking, reasonable to ne. 18 Mow, for every one aillion suoh exposures fron 19 '} 1I consuser and commercial application, dry wall patching 20 eonpounda, the expected number of eventual cancer cases 21 would be 100, one in 10,000 risk, a aillion people, 100 22 1' * tines 10,000. 23 - l Tho industry eat ii?.ted a 150,000 tons of patching 24 eoapound with three percent asbestos was produced in 1975. 2 Asscainc that Carbide's oz percent limit is accepted by KMX 00983 175 1 tka Commission, it is likely that millions of dry wall 2 renovations par yaax would oostinna to bo dona with as3 bostos containing material. 4 CHAXRKAH BYXMGTOMt Mr. Castlemaur could you sum 5 marise. You asked for 15 minutes and you're about 40 al 6 ready. 7 MR. CASYLBMAMt I'm sorry. This is about all Z 8 have to say. 9 CHAIRMAN BYIMGTOM* Okay, will you supply copies 10 of this to the Office of the Secretary, so the Commission 11 will have ooplas? 12 MR. CASTLEMAMt It's a bit of a mess, but I've 13 already supplied it. I don't type very well. ^ 14 CHAIRMAN BYXMGTOHt Okay. X looked through the 15 package that we reoeived, and X didn't see the material that 16 you were using as you go through here, but - 17 MR. CASYLBMAWi Well, it's here out of order. 18 CBAXRMAH BYIMGYOUi Okay. 19 MR. CASTUEMAHi There's also a brochure from a 20 company that has asbestos mines that's out selling asbes 21 tos, just like it was the best thing in the world. 22 That's Grant Wilson. 23 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN* Excuse me, for a moment. 24 Is this -- what I've gotten, is what what you're using? 25 MR. CASTX.RMAN s Tee, I'm working from that. KMX 00984 176 1 COMMISSIONER FRANXLXHi Okay, okay, you've got 2 it all in here, but out of order. 3 MR. CASTX.EKAKt Tea . 4 In order -- tho Commission bac proposed a total 5 baa on asbestos in theeo materials, not being able to find 6 any routes of sales to these materials that aren't accessible 7 to consumers* In order for Onion Carbide to continue to sell 9 asbestos for patching compounds, in the event that the 10 Commission follows through with its proposal to baa 11 asbestos eoataialng compounds, patching compounds, Onion \ Vl 12 Carbide would have to make special arrangements for its 13 commercial customers to create new channels of distribution 14 that will be on the Commission's authority. 15 X take this occasion to urge Union Carbide not T 1\ 16 to press its case before the Commission, or try in other 17 ways to foist these dangerous products on the American 18 people. IS I urge Carbide to cease maintaining, even ii* | * , 20 after the rest of the asbestos industry has gone silent, j 21 that asbestos is safe and essential for use in patching 22 compounds. 23 And I urge Onicr Carbide to consider that some 24 of its stockholders will !-ost likely be endangered by f these very products, and they would rather not risk getting KMX 00985 177 1 otftow or having anyone 1m get oaaoerf for a 2 | profit of ima aaati por yatr. 3 bad X rv the Consumer Product Safety connission 4 to do all la Its povor to proaolgata a total baa oa as- 5 baatos eoatalalag patoblag compounds aa aooa aa poaalbla. 6 The last tblag la a vary apaolflo request. x 7 would raqaaat that the baa take effect immediately, aot 8 la 30 daya after lt*e published. Bet If a 30 day atay of 9 effective date la retaiaed, I reqaeat that the ceaaiaaloa 10 require durlug this period all asbestos eoatalalag dry 11 wall patehlag eoapouada be required to bear a label, 12 waraiag, that they are about to be baaaed because they 13 pose aa uaaeeaptable risk of eeaear to eonsuaers. 14 CHAIRMAN BYXMGTONt Okay. Any questions? 15 C0MMX8SX0HSR PXYTLXt A very quick one. I was 16 reading oa one of your pages, you indicated you were 17 aa expert witness oa product liability eases Would you 18 state for the record what your qualifieatioas are that 19 make you an expert. 20 MR. CASTARMANi When X was at Johns Hopkins in 21 1970-*?1, X obtained a master's thesis -- a master's degree 22 in enviroaaeatal engineering, and ay thesis was on the 23 aedlcal literature on asbestos, xt was Asbestos sffacts on 24 Health. 25 And for the last six years I've worked on problens KWX 00986 1 178 ; 1 tuvriag to do with a&bostot and health- I'va dealt with ] ?. Vt over a dozen federal regulator? agencies --not all regula- 1 v 3 tory agencies, including outfits like the United States 1 f Wavy that have asbestos probleas. rft` And I'd like to see some of these problems G solved* 7 CBAXRMAH BYIHGTOH* Commissioner Xushner. 6 COMMISSIONER XUSHNBRt *ih this connection, Barry, S are you aware of any emerging data that deals with the 10 incidence of lung o&ncor, amesathilioma, in dry wall It workers? * 12 MR. CASTLSMAHi Yea, I mentioned one paper the 13 last tine 1 vae.ihere. U COMMISSIONER EOSHNERi Yes. > - 15 MR. CASTAEMAHi It's by Mane and Bendarson in 16 the December *76 issue of the Journal of Occupational 17 Medicine, and they found that it <was excess rates of to lung cancer among a number of work forces in bos Angeles, 1 i j IS including dry wall workers, including electricians, plumbers, 20 and clothing ironers. And the authors believed that these people's 22 aeposare to asbestos played a role with excess risk of 23 lung oancer. 4 There is also one cate reported of lung cancer ' of % dry wall worker, I i:e.vc a copy of it. It*8 an abstract, KMX 00987 1 179 1 but it*a Jut m ease to really tall ;o nueh. 2 CHAIRMAN BY ZVOVON t Okay# we thank you vary much, 3 Mr* Castleaan. 4 alao hava baan provided -- wo*11 hoar again 5 from Mr. Vhodaa of Onion Carbide, who vantad to aavo half 6 of hla tino. 7 The prior witnaaaaa, Vuadaan Gibbons of tha 8 Natural Resources Dafansa Counoil( has agraad and wa 9 appraoiata bar providing tha list of quastions that sha 10 raiaad ralavant to studios, thara wars air of than. 11 mI.OXBBONS: Okay. 12 CBAZVMAV BYXMGYOMs And X would suggest, Z think. 13 that -- do you hava additional eopias of thoso? 14 MS. GZBBOVSt Yes. 15 CHAIRMAN BYIMGTONt Yes, I'd lika ona. Also, 16 to tha staff and Mr. Rhodes. . 17 What X would suggast. uniass thara ara sons 18 of thoss that you would lika to addrass at this point in 19 tins, addrass as many of those as you think that you want 20 to. 21 The rast. though, wa would ask that you subnit 22 an answer for the record, if you would agree to that. 23 COMMISSIONER FRANKLIN: Mr. Chairman, and Mr. 24 Rhodes too,I've got to go, but there's a question I 25 would like to have asked and perhaps the Chaiman could KMX 00988 iso see that it gets answered. CHAIRMAN SYINrjTON: Okay. COMMXSSIOEEF FRANKLIN: In ay absence. And there ia a member of'my staff in the room who will listen very carefully, and will listen to everything else that goes on besides. But Hr. Rauch mentioned earlier, I thought, that you agreed with him that we needed some kind of test to see whether consumers can actually get fireplace logs and ash out of their homes safely, and that was my question. Ifwanted to ask you whether the two of you do indeed agree and what your thought on this was. MR. RHODES: Kell, the staff contacted me to *' ask for opinions on a suggestion for a procedure, which ' we were happy to send in. I gather it looked very much like a number of procedures that was sent in. , And one of the suggestions, if I recall correctly, I don't have it here in front of me, was that we did suggest that we should -- a gentleman has just put it here over my signature. - I said in conclusion, due to the complete lack of any data for the specific operation, he strongly recommended that any reE?"' procedure that is developed be checked to measure actua? exposure levels before wide spread use. KMX 00989 181 1 And Z would stand on that, that seems to ae that 2 It's worth trying to find out what level of axposuro you 3 ara causing. Mow, as far as tha thrso to six months, X 4 haven't scan that protocol and 1 would think it would ba 5 dona as long as you'ra not looking for total statistical 6 evaluation of 20 or 30 locations. 7 But you could go into tbraa or four places and e remove the material and measure the asbestos level you'ra 3 getting much more quickly than three to six months. Mow, 10 in that connection, there has bean a lot of talk about the 11 use of scanning eleetron microscopy and transmission elec* 12 tron mieroseopy. " 13 The thing that you have to be aware of is that 14 all of the medical data -- say all, all that I'm aware of -- 15 has bsen correlated in terms of the fibers par cc, longer 16 than five microns, primarily as measured by optical measure, 17 optical procedures. 18 This qusstion of whether there ara a lot of 19 very fine fibers or very short fibers, whether these have 20 any hasardous nature, is very much a controversial issue 21 at this point. 22 CHAZRMAH BYIIJGTON: Okay. X think part of tha 23 problem in terms of tha three months or more is the fact 24 that if you've ever been involved at this end in terms of 25 government contracting, we're looking at probably anywhere VCNOC 0099 1(32 frost 30 to 45 days just in order to draft it up, publish it, get the bids, do the thing, or even go out and find it and get it ordered, and find the people. Sq that ve're worried at this end of the 30 to 45 dey lag before we're ever into testing, and then it's the testing and then the results and that's how somebody gets to about 90 days. MR. RHODESt Well, ifjyou're going to get into transmission electron microscopy, X can Bee how it would take that long because sample, prep, and counting are very slow and tedious, and X don't knew quite how you want to handle some of these questions that Mr. Castleman raised. X don't think we really want to get into a de tailed, technical discussion of monitoring procedures. Again, transmission. I'd be glad to. CHAIRMAN BTINGTON: What - MR. RHODES: X am not really an expert in that area. The man we rely on is chairman of the ASTM committee, subcommittee, which is studying that subject. CHAIRMAN BYINGTOK; What we attempted to do is to provide you right now with a copy of HRDC's points, and as many of those points thet shs raised or that Mr. Castleman raised that you would like to address, you're free to do so ! KMX 00991 183 i 111* baluet va wuld uk that you could consent 2 on for the record vo would appreciate that. 3 MS* RMOOSSt All right* let etart with the 4 questions here* X*ve got too much data floating around. 5 Oueation number -- do you want ms to read it or do you 6 want me to go ahead and aaawar it. 7 CHAIRMAN BYXMOYOMi Qo ahead and anawer it. 8 MR. RHODESi Relating to x-ray defraction, in 9 the determination of how much aabeatoa products contain, to we hare done none x-ray defraction work* and it'a very 11 undefinitive. 12 Ve are now talking with the people who preaented 13 the people, MBS, on the tale aide of things. You juat 14 plain cannot take a mud or a dry product and run it IS through an x-ray defractometer, and expect to get lines 16 out that will tell you how much asbestos. 17 As they appropriately aay, chloride will inter 18 fere, and mica will interfere, and there*s a whole aeries 19 of things that will interfere. You get involved in special 20 preparations. 21 How what we did do on the material which was 22 labelled aa containing asbestos, on the first teat, is mix it up, dilute it, and look at it under the optical microscope. And we were able to see fibers that to an i KMX 00992 1B4 J '' 2 experienced counter ell the characteristics of classical 3 crysatile. 4 So this tells us they ware there. It doesn't 5 tell us the weight percent in the smd. On the second mud r ve it was supplied to us by a manufacturer who told us t j j i j r i 7 what the formulation was, met all his product specifica 0 tions, the asbestos had been left out. It just wouldn't 9 have looked the same. !0 We can't guarantee that it's 2.6 percent asbestos, j . 1! but ve know how many bags were supposed to have put in, i j j t2 put in in the formulation and 2 think that's probably a ' i 13 more reliable measure of what's in there thantrying to f 14 run it through a long, complex analytical technique. 15 X come back to the point that the analysis for 16 asbestos, crystaile, any way, is. these compounds, is a 17 real difficult analytical problem. 13 Second question, how did you insure you counted 19 all the asbestos particles. Union Carbide did not use a 20 NIOSH counting technique, and so on. As a matter of fact, 21 Dnion Carbide did use the NIOSH counting technique, if I 22 can find the quotation. 22 I duplicated a par*, from P and CAM 239, the 2'- latest edition, which says., pcrt 3, interferences. An atmosphere known to contain asbestos, all particulates with a length of diaaster ratio of throe to one or greater, i j KMX 00993 184 1 2 experienced counter all the characteristics of classical 3 crysatile. 4 So this tails us they vara there. It doesn't 5 tall us tha weight percent in the nud. On the second mud 6 we it was supplied to ua by a Mnufacturer who told us 7 what the formulation was* net all his product specifica 8 tions, the asbestos had been left out. It just wouldn't S have looked the sane. to Me can't guarantee that it's 2.6 percent asbestos, tl but we know how many bags were supposed to have put in, 12 put in in the formulation and X think that's probably a 13 ore reliable neaeure of what's in there than trying to 14 run it through a long, complex analytical technique. 15 X cone back to the point that the analysis for 16 asbestos, crystaile, any way, in'these compounds, is a 17 real difficult analytical problem. 16 Second question, how did you insure you counted 19 all the asbestos particles. Union Carbide did not use a 20 MXOSB counting technique, and so on. As a matter of fact, j 21 Union Carbide did use the NXOSH counting technique, if X 22 can find the quotation. 23 I duplicated a page from P and CAM 239, the 24 latest edition, which says, part 3, interferences. An 25 atmosphere known to contain asbestos, all particulates with a length of diameter ratio of three to one or greater. KMX 00994 185 any length grtttir than flvt ileroaffctrs should, in the absence of other information, bo conaidored to bo asbestos fibers and counted as suoh. And X don't knot of any laboratory, and I know a / lot of people in the laboratarihe^ who do a blind count of everythin? with a X> over D greater than three, a length greater than five. 08HA does not do it at Balt hake City, and a certain amount of -- X don't want to get too long into a discussion on it, but if you count -- X don't count, x look a lot in the microscope* Counting is an eyeballing technique which you have to develop. Xf you've done it a while you can spot what's asbestos, what meets the criteria. Ton get a trained eye ball, and it's an acquired skill. How, as far as did we leave a lot of fibers out, we try to count,first of all, everything could be crysatile, and X won't get into details, it could be crysatile, even though we may not think it is, it's counted as crysatile. Anything which could be an amphibole is counted as an amphibole. The only things that are not counted are these wavy platelets and things which meet the criteria, but do not look either like crysatile or any of the aaphiboles. We are not, and again X would comment, this KMX 00995 186 1 concept that someone who's involved in trying to do a z reasonable, scientific job is suspect at having an interest 3 in their data, or no use. I have beer trying to avoid 4 getting into a hassle with uouat Sinai on why the Rohl 5 data looks so high. X declined to speculate on it, and 6 X will only stand on the data that we've presented today, 7 other investigators, including OSHA, whieh indicates that 8 our numbers are pretty such in the sane range as theirs 8 are. to And we have counted a number of times with 1 1! California OSHA, and a number of other laboratories, side 12 by side, and we get essentially the same numbers. 13 This question of significant amounts of smaller than five 14 micron fibers, the point that X made earlier, that all of 15 the hazard data, the risk data, is in terms of fibers 16 per cc longer than five microns, and this whole area of 17 the shorter than five microns has not been well defined, 18 and we did not intend to present this as an electron micro 12 scope study of small fibers 1 2C This time waited average thing that we allowed, 21 we calculated them as required by the OSHA formulation. 22 I think it's been blown out of all proportion. The 23 numbers are there for tbs houcskold exposure, in the off 2*: periods when the workers arc net there. Sore of the subsequent ones have been calculated i i \ KMX 00996 187 T for tho ontiro dgy la tho house. Oa of tho operators# 2 the wife# stayed thoro tha whole day. And tba critical 3 poiat la vhafehtr you've got a toath or two-tanthe, four- 4 tenths# It raally doaaa't -- whan yon start feeding it into 5 tha riak estinatlon,you can gat np as high as four or 6 five fibers for a whole day before it begins to make 7 any significant result# offset. 8 ow, when you average out -- whan you taka it 9 and average it over a year# and grind it into Dr. Bayard's 10 formulation# why you have to gat up around four or five 11 fibers per ee before you begin to aea any significant ef 12 fects . 13 When you get up into 20 and 30# it gets to be 14 significant rather rapidly. And Z would content that Z 15 was net criticising basically Dr. Bayard's approach. We 16 are dubious about sons of his - assumptions, but I was 17 using it to# as he put it together# and Z hope uy arithne- 18 tic is correct# to calculate tho nunbers for sone other 19 levels which he didn't touch. 20 Is there anything else in that area that you 21 had. 22 CHAXRMAW BYIHCTOH> Why don't you go ahead and 23 proceed. 24 MR. RHODES: You'd like to ask about -- 25 CHAIRMAN BYXHGTON: Then feel free at the sane KMX 00997 188 i ( 1 tine to the other parties, as 1 indicated at the very be 2 ginning, that any of the parties who are participating to 3 day are most free to submit additional comments between I 4 now and the end of tht close of comment time, which is 5 the 2 -- what, 29th, isn't it? Yes, August 29th. 6 MR. RHODES s The 29th? 7 CHAIRMAN BYIHGTON: On any Of the subjects that o you had previously planned to eoaaent on, or any of the other subjects that were raised today. And they would all 10 be part of the record and taken into consideration by the 11 Commission when it makes its decision. 1?. MR. RHODESt Hell, we do plan to present a report 13. on this second test. U CHAIRMAN BYINGTON : All right. 15 MR. RHODESs Some of the file numbers are just 16 being counted today. 17 CHAIRMAN BYINGTON: You had a small portion, I 16 understand, of the rest of your statement here -- 16 MR. RHODES: Right, X will go right to that. 20 CHAIRMAN BYINGTON: -- and also staff had a 21 couple questions, and we can see if we can attempt to 22 complete this. 2c MR. RHODES: Do ycu want to go to the staff ques 24 tions or -CHAXRK&K 3YIEGT0N; . r.r-, go to your -- \ i i KMX 00998 189 NR. RBODSSt What Z wastad to do now la pick up at tha point whom va had estimated naing the Bayard model, tha levels of risk ealeulatad for tha levels of ex po aora that wa had found. Phis atarta at tha beginning of page seven, and at tha riak of being redundant and telling you aoaathing you already know, Z wanted to quota a couple of ltaua from aaetion eewen fron tha Coneoner Product Safety Act, which relate to the conditions for a ban. First, the consuaer product is being or will be distributed in connerce and aueh consumer product presents an unreasonable risk of injury. Ho feasible consumer product safety standard under this act would adequately protect the public froa the unreasonable riak fron injury associated with such products. And skip down, the Coaaission shall not promulgate a consuaer product safety rule unless it finds and includes such finding in the ruling that the rule, including its effective date, is reasonably necessary to eliainate or reduce an unreasonable risk of injury associated with such products. Proaulgation of the rule is in the public interest, in the case of a rule declaring a product a banned hasardous substance, that no feasible consuaer product safety standard under this act would adequately protect the public fron an unreasonable risk of injury associated with such product. KMX 00999 190 Mots particularly the repeated use of the words unreasonable rick and the requirement to eliminate or reduce unreasonable risk, not: to sake this risk eero. The act Bakes it quite clear that the intent is not the total elimi nation of all risk, but of unreasonable risk, and it dele gates the Commission the complex and soul searching problem of deciding what is reasonable. Comments of your own staff on the strength of the evidenoe used to support the ban is well summarised in three short quotations from the record. First, from the Federal Register and the description of the ban. The petitioners believe that high quantities of asbestos fibers remain in the air after these products are sanded, and the fibers substantially increase the risk of mesothelioma and lung cancer, had from a letter July 11th, *76, from Charles M. Jacobson, to Francine Sbacter, the petitioners have addressed problems which arise from being exposed to asbestos fibers occupationally and environ mentally. However, they have not cited any concrete evidence of a hazard, which is tied directly to the products for which they sek a ban. Hardy cited the fact that these products do contain asbestos fibers and they cited the fact that asbestos fibers in such situations have been linked to lung disease. KMX 01000 191 1 To quota your ova staff* vs questioned wbsthsr 2 tbs evidence prsssatsd in tbs petition is sufficient to 3 sbov that tbsss sobstames* may casss substantial personal 4 injury and substantial illnsss during or as an approximate 5 result of any oustomary or reasonably foreseeable handling or 6 use. 7 To wrap that up, tbe instances of single or short 8 term exposure# sad this is from another briefing package# 9 to asbestos# cited in the petition# earn be taken as 10 evidence as a possible but not necessarily probable cause- 11 effect relation. 12 However# by themselves they would not stand up 13 to statistical scrutiny in predicting a correlation be 14 tween brief exposure to asbestos and a latter development 15 of cancer caused by such exposure. 16 Substantial evidence has been presented here 17 that tbe commercial use data on which the petitioners base 18 their allegations is substantially higher than that of all 19 other investigators# including OSHA compliance Inspections. 20 It has also been shown that consumer exposure to 21 low, and short duration# and when averaged over a yea? 22 or more# are not distinguishable from ambient background. j 23 He know of no evidence that such casual, low 24 exposure represents any haxards# so that the question that i 25 remains becomes one of a banning action based on the KMX 01001 192 1 2 existence of a possible bat not proven risk, which if 3 they exist at all. differs only slightly fron aero. 4 Yon are probably aware that this question of 5 the regulation of carcinogens is a major issue today before 6' virtually all of the government regulatory agencies. The 7 PDA saccharin ban has racaived wide publicity. OSHA is fl deeply involved in a proposal.for generic regulation 9 approach to carcinogens. Bearing on bensene are now in 10 progress. 11 All of this activity does not help to fled 12 answers to our immediate problems, but at least we're in good j 13 company. The problem we face originates in a so called . 14 one hit theory of carcinogenesis. The simplest outline, 15 this theory holds that a single molecule of oarcinogen 16 is capable of causing cancar. particularly to susceptible 17 parsons. If enough people are exposed, susceptible persons IB 19 or small number of persons will oontraot canceri if 20 follows, therefore, that there is no absolutely safe or sero risk level for a carcinogen. And such a material 21 22 should, depending on the statutory authority of the agency involved, be banned.severely restrict, replaced, 23 controlled to the limits of detection, and so forth. 24 It is useful to examine this theory in the light 25 of where there is general agreement and where responsible ( KMX 01002 193 1 pinion* 2 We iMllm tbnt virtually all nodical authorities vonld agree* first* the wide range of dosages 3 for a carcinogen where a dose response relationship exists) 4 the larger the dose the greater percentage of those exposed 5 will contract cancer* and rice Terse. 6 Second* in exposed populations* ewen substantial 7 exposure lewels, large proportions of those exposed, do 8 not contraot cancer. as the dosage goes down* the average 9 tine to the appearance of the tenor increases. This 10 principle was Illustrated by the extrapolation fornula ' tl I've underlined in the Bayard specifications discussed 12 preciously. 13 Medical disagreenent occurs over what happens 14 when the dosage is decreased te eery low levels. There 15 is one school of thought* and this, was enbraced by nost of 16 the regulatory agencies* there is no conpletely safe level 17 that exists. 18 There are other responsible authorities who con 19 tend a dosage level is reached when the body's defense 20 nechanisns oan effectively eonbat the altered cell, and 21 cancerous growth does not occur. 22 Supporters of this position cite the low level 23 presence of certain metals and hormones that are essential 24 to the human body in trace amounts, that at higher levels 25 are carcinogens. f I i KMX 01003 194 1 Unfortunately, thro is no way to'demonstrate z the correctness of either vie?;. There ia a background 3 level of cancer in both sen and experimental animals. A As the dosage In the corresponding number of cancers i 1 t I i 5 decrease. e One point of view is that the occasional cancer 7 from the specific agent still occurs, and cannot be 8 distinguished from background) while the other is that 9 the added cases do not occur. 10 The existence of the background makes it impos It sible to determine which view is correct. These views 12 can be partially resolved with a model of -- discussed IS previously. A low exposure may cause cancer, but if 14 the time to tumor is 150 years, for example, then expected 15 'life span of 70 years is for all practical purposes a 16 safe threshold exposure, at least until life expectancy 17 approaches 150 years. 18 However, sines there is no provable scientific 19 answer to this risk question, we are really left with a 20 socio-political, rather than a wholly -- than a scientific 2t decision to consider. The fundamental question, then, 22 is whether a total absence of risk approach to regulation 23 is appropriate, or core particularly will be acceptable 2t to society. 25 In our lives vra vjidargo a succession of risks, KMX 01004 195 1 some knowingly and none unknowingly. The American peopla 2 hava always indicated a willingness to take risks as 3 evidenced by snob things as bidespread use of the auto 4 mobile, anoking, alcohol, and proper diet, even the home 5 as it is today. 6 We believe that the saro risk concept begins 7 to inpact on jobs as a way of life of a substantial number 8 of people will not be acceptable and will have to be 9 modified to balance risks against benefits in a realistic 10 fashion. 11 This sort of balanoe, rather than regulation 12 by cliahe, is a carcinogen, so ban it, should be applied 13 here. The benefits from the continued use in asbestos 14 and tape joint compounds is substantial, and the risk is 15 either saro or so snail it cannot be distinguished from 16 sero. 17 And X will summarise, skipping the next couple of 18 pages that X gave earlier, X would like to summarise the 19 t Union Carbide Corporation's position and expand on the 20 approach presented in ay letter of July 14th, 1977, which 21 we believe is a reasonable alternative to the ban proposed 22 by the Commission. 23 First, products under consideration have been 24 in widespread use for about 35 years, and we know ofno 25 evidence that any consumer has ever been harmed by that. KMX 01005 196 t Ho unreasonable risk to the eonsuset has boon demonstrated 2 by the petitioners or by the staff. Consumer exposure -3 second, oonsnmer exposure data have been presented and 4 shoe that the exposures are both low and brief, and when 5 averaged over a year are not distinguishable from the 6 general background. 7 The risk from such exposure, if indeed any risk 8 does exist, is extremely small and based on the extrapolation 9 of an unproven end improvable theory. 10 Third, we question whether it is appropriate, and It whether the ect gives the Commission the authority to 12 baa a product on the basis of a hypothetical or theoretical 13 risk, or on the basis of an absolute sero risk requirement. 14 Fourth, we do not agree that a reasonable product 15 safety standard oaaaot be promulgated to protect the 16 public adequately from any unreasonable risk and recommend 17 the following approach. 18 00 limit the amount of asbestos that can be 19 used in spackling and taping compounds to two percent by 20 weight of the dry formulation. This is sufficient to gain 21 the benefits of the use of asbestos and serves to limit 22 the potential for exposure. 23 Zt differs from the one percent of total 24 formulation, including water suggested previously, in that <"VJC more closely defines the content of the final product in KMX 01006 197 1 th fora that is sanded. 2 Xt is alao a lavel where analysis la aore 3 reasonable. 4 (B) require a warning label, including proper 5 work procedures, on all coapounds under the jurisdiction 6 of the Couaission whether paokaged for direct oonsuaer or 7 ooaaereial use ia oonsuaer ooataet. This turns to good 8 advantage and widespread public awareness of a possible 9 potential hasarda of asbestos to encourage that the product TO be treated according to directions and not abused. 11 Xt alao gives the user a choice. 12 Thank you very auch for the opportunity to speak 13 to the Couaission, we will be happy to try and answer all 14 the questions that we haven't answered so far. 15 CHAIRMAN BTXMGTOHt Coaaissionar Kushner. 16 COMMISSIONER KDSBMERs Just one concent. With 17 out couneating on the reasonableness of the entire set 18 of suggestions that you Bake, X just would eonaent on one 19 thing on the last page, page 14. 20 You say that it is also a level that is two 21 percent, where analysis is aore reasonable. X guess it's 22 a little bit aore reasonable in the sense that you'll 23 see aore asbestos, but the issue of deternining whether 24 you have 1.9 percent or 2.1 percent is no easier -- 25 MR. RHODES: Well -- KMX 01007 190 COMMISSIONER K0SS5ER: -- than the deciBion that . would need to be made ir. the event of a ban. But I really don't think that that helps the situation. That's just a comment. . MR. RHODES: Okay/ if you're going to be looking at sero, or very close to zero, with all these aaphibole chips in it, you're probably going to have to go to transmission electron microscopy. If you're talking two percent or one percent or something, you can hack off from that and I don't think you're going to have problems with trying to find zero. COMMISSIONER KOSHNER: I agree, it's very diffi cult to find zero, but I suspect that one is simply trading problems, if one were to take your suggestion, just from the standpoint of the analytical problems. MR. RHODES: Nell, an analysis at a two pexeent level, in general, is easier to do than an analysis at two-tenths of a percent, lOCtbs, 200Cths. COMMISSIONER KOSHNER: Yes, bnt once again the precision of any of these techniques is not going to be good enough for you to be able to distinguish with the kind of certainty that you'd 1 ths difference between 1.9 and 2.1. That's the only point ~`u trying to make. MR. RHODES: Wait, x wouldn't disagree with that really. KMX 01008 199 i 1 t C0MMX88X0MBR KU5HH8R* OX course, the importance 2 of ksoviag the difference between 1.9 end 2.1 is -- 3 MR. RHODESi Well, lt'e the difference between 4 being in end out of eoaplienee 5 C0MMX8SIONER KDSHMBRi Well, X SUSpeot -- 6 MR. RHQDBSt -- with none proposed standard. 7 COMMXS8XOM8R EUSHNERi X sttspect you'd have to 8 do some of the things that OSHA is working on now where 9 yon have a co-efficient of variation, and you run the 10 analysis and it has a set precision and you decide whether 11 you*re in end out of ooapliance, depending on the certain 12 of application -- 13 MR. RHODESt But aren't those principles equally 14 valid to the sero or near sero -- well, as you go down 15 towards sero, there's a tendency to the outer liaits to 16 beeone such larger. 17 Certainly a such larger peroantage than the 18 nuaber you're trying to get a reading on. 19 COMMXSSXOKER jCDSHNBRi Well, X don't think we need 20 to - 21 MR. RHODBSi Ho. 22 COMMISSIONER KUSHNER: --pursue this auch further. 23 CHAIRMAN BYINGTON: is one of your concerns 24 contamination, just generally? 25 MR. RHODESx As an asbestos supplier, we're not KMX 01009 200 1 really that concerned, bat v fait that -2 CBAXRMAR BXXRGTONx That would be your last -- 3 following up with Coanissioner Kuahner in terns of per* 4 oentage, X naan# an X reading aonething into the -- 5 MR. RHODES< Our feeling - 6 CHAIRMAN BYXBGTOHt -- between the lines when you 7 start talking about background asbestos, when you start 8 talking about all this type of thing, are you saying 9 indirectly or hinting at the possibility that there really 10 isn't such a thing as an asbestos free compound of the 11 figure? 12 MR. RHODESt X*n not hinting, X'n coning right 13 out and saying it. X think, you can take any compound on 14 the narket and feed it into Mount Sinai, and they don't 15 find sone asbestos in it. And X think they'll beright, 16 it'll be there. 17 Row, you have to look long enough and hard 18 enough, it's everywhere, and the broader you make your 19 definition of asbestos, the easier it is to find it. 20 X think your staff probably has got sone thoughts on that, 21 hawing listened to the problea at the BBS. 22 There is a raging controversy on what is asbestos 23 and what's a alneral fiber. It's /been going on for 24 years. Crysatile is not that hard to pin down. 25 KMX 01010 . 201 f CHAIRMAN BYXNGYON: Well, then you've also got 2 a raging controversy in the medical profession as to 3 whether that really makes, any difference and whether one's 4 not just as bad as the other.. 5 .- NR. RHODES* fos, you have, that's quite right. 5 And what dimensions are appropriate. 7 CHAIRMAN BYINGTON: Okay. 8 COMMISSIONER P1TTLB: Just a couple of questions. 9 When you were explaining the desirable feature and property 10 of asbestos in causing this -r X forgot the words you used, n but this kind of sheathing that allowed it to be spread 32 on easily and then sort of come back together. 13 HR. 3BODES: Yes. 14 COMMISSIONER PITTLE: Do you attribute that to 15 the physical, geometric properties or the chemical 16 properties of that particular find? T7 MR. RHODES: Basically it's the physical proper 18 ties of the fiber combined with the tendency to flocculate, 19 which is -- , 20 COMMISSIONER PII'ILE: is that particular to that 21 particular fiber or is that all fibers are that? 22 MR. RHODES: Geae.~ci.lly common to fibrous materials. 23 COMMISSIONER So you expect to get that 24 in the substitutes, that szav kind of a property, and f. it would still be roughly ths sacs -- KMX 01011 i 202 t NR. RRODSSt Zt would be the same sort of phe 2 nomenon# jw. Zt would wary is degree with a number of 3 particles and the also and dimensions and the surface 4 ebarge. 5 COMMISSIONER PITYLEi So you don't think -- you 6 think than it's peculiar. Xt's not peculiar to the surface 7 ehenistry of the fiber as to why that particular fiber is 8 better than other naterials to get that flocculation, 9 whatever you used. 10 MR. RRODSSt What -- uy judgement is -- 11 CONNIESZOWSR PITTLS: Would you spell that word 12 for the record. Z want to look it up later. 13 NR. RRODSSt flocculation? 14 CONNIESZOWSR PITTLEi Yes. 15 NR. RRODSSt Z don't know whether Z can spell it 16 or not. 17 COMMISSIONER PITIES: Okay, Z just want to make 18 sure -- 18 MR. RHODES: My secretary does most of my spelling 20 for me. 21 COMMISSIONER PITTASt All right. 22 MR. RHODESi I believe it's f-l-o-c~c-u-l-a-t 23 24 COMMISSIONER PITTAE: I wanted to make sure 25 that's the right word you'd use in mixed company. K*n* 01012 203 1 MR. RHODEC: You have to watch your pronuncia 2 tion. 3 COMKISSICKER PITT^Et I just want to get from 4 yon whether or not you consider that desirable fiber t | 5 because of its surface chemistry or because of -- ) 6J kr.RHODES; Primarily becanaa of geometry. 7 COMMISSIONER PXTTLE: It's geometry. 8j MR. RHODES; 7*8. 9 COMMISSIONER PITTLEt When one of your competitors 10 was in not so long ago, in an open meeting here, Z had 11 asked on the question of whsthsr they had a company 12 policy as to how they educated their own customers about 13 the hasards of whatever, the potential hasards there are, 14 or the hasards of using asbestos in consumer products, 15 and they sent us back some answers as to how they deal 16 with their customers, the rather aggressive-positions 17 they say they take if people didnTt violate that. 13 Do you -- does your company have such a policy? 19 MR. RHODES: We have we started with labels 20 on our bags in 1968. We're late in the game. 2! We provide information, we provide -- 22 COMMISSIONER pi'rShS; My question -- 23 MR. RHODES: l?-c?, ve~- veil, upon request is 24 academic these days, and has been for the last four or five years. You don't talk to anyone, who is a user or * KMX 01013 204 ! potential uac of asbestos these day* without eoae 2 discussion of tha regulations, the haaltb hasards, that 3 sort of thing* 4 COMMISSIONER PITTX.lt Has your policy aver 5 avolvad into a document? 6 MR* RHODESt Na do not hara a document ia tha 7 formality that JohicNaitvilU Aoat> but a bava a whola 8 sariaa of thing* that wa sand tha customers. Ha also do 9 a lot of dust counting to help than saa that thalr-- in 10 amswar to your question, wa haws a vary active policy to 11 educata and to warn. 12 COMMISSIONER PITTLEi Would it ba possible to 13 gat a copy of those materials? X mean, if x were a 14 potential customer you could tall me what I should watch 15 out for whan X make products to sail. 16 MR. RHODES* X presume it would, yes. 17 C0KMXS5X0HBR PXTTX.S* X mean, if it's available 18 it would ba vary helpful. 19 MR. RHODESi Yss,we oan gat something. 20 COMMISSIONER tittle* One thing I've learned is 21 that tha experts, many of the experts in the field, are 22 tha people who manufacture it. And whatever advice you 23 give is going to be very helpful to us. 24 That's all. 25 CHAXRMAH BYIHGTON: Yes. The staff has a few KMX 01014 20 5 questions, I understand, at the moment. HR. HAVEBKt Z na Ron Raveea of the Office of General Counsel of the Environmental Protection Agency. Z refer to page 9 in Hr. Rhodes' statement where he says that we know of no evidence that such casual, low ex posure represents any hasards, that the question becomes one of the banning actions based on the existence of a possible but not. proven risk, which if it exists at all differs only slightly froa aero. From BPA's perspective, 1 would just like to introduce into the record the comments on our asbestos regulations concerning the demolition of buildings. 8ince 1973 the agency has provided that before such build ings are demolished, asbestos insulation on pipes and elsewhere in the building has to be wetted and removed ' froa the demolition takes place. When these amendments, when these regulations are -- ware amended in '74 and *75, the demolition industry raised a oonesrn that they had had all along., that short term exposure to asbestos were not risky. EPA disagreed with that and has all along, specifically 40 Federal Register 48295 on October 14th, 1975, when it promulgated these amendments to the demolition standard it noted some new studies which indicated that single short term exposure to asbestos are significant. KMX 206 1 tbwi iavolvti on* day inhalation studies of rata vhlob BPA 2 has ud all along aa evidence supporting ita standard. 3 The only >polnt I'd wish to make la our agency 4 has been eonearnod all along with abort tarn exposure, 5 and although onr statutory authority, X think, does differ 6 froa yours, we haws not hasitatad to taka action to ban 7 asbastos, so to spaak, in this oontsxt. 8 X just want to oaks sura that the record reflects 9 that. 10 CHAIRMAN STXnaTOMt . X appreciate it. 11 NX, RHODESt X think X indicated that that was 12 the position that a number of the regulatory agencies have 13 taken. 14 NR. XAVXRHt Tea, and again X recognise that IS our statutory authority lets us go after substances such 16 as asbestos, if they nay cause or contribute to the health 17 hasards, and it differs naybe a little bit. 18 But there are studies -- 19 CHAIRMAN BYIMCTONJ We do appreciate that and 20 the subaission of that for the record too. Okay. Another 21 -- go ahead. 22 MR.RHODBSj x would also suggest if you calculate 23 out on the rat's life span, what proportion of -- how 24 that compares to the proportion of the human life, as 25 far as -- what-I'e saying is that one day exposure to Kt*X "10A6 207 the rat,calculates oat to considerably nore than that in a human life span. I don't want to got into the medical hassle on this thing, 1 don't have a medical background, but I do present that as the way things get passed around. One day becomes hasardous because it was hazardous to the rat. CHAIRMAN BXXBGTON: Okay# there vas another question over here# Mr. Bigio. MR. BXGXOt Tee, X had a couple questions that arose primarily during the course of your talk this morning. There has been a lot of mention on your part, and othors# of the background, the natural background of asbestos How, I'm sure you've looked into this for some time# and would you say that in part this background is not natural in the classic sense as we would use it, but has been -- is manmade or created by industrial, commercial users of asbestos? MR. RHODES: X will make a couple comments on that. First of all X think there's a paper by Sid Speel and another author from Johns-Manville who have looked into that quite extensively. And there's no question that some of it has been around for thousands c-f years. X believe they found it in the glaciers KMX 01017 208 t As far as how fast: it's expanding, how much it's > 2 growing -- 3 MR. BIGIO: Mo, I'm really talking about the levels, 4 1 mean, what you would call the background levels today 5 as opposed to what it might have been say before the 6 industrial age. 7 MR. RHODES: Z can't answer that question. ' 8 MR.BIGIO: I'm sure you can't answer that, but S I was wondering if you had some feeling about what contri- ] i 1C bution or widespread use of asbestos has made to the so 11 called background level. 12 And of course, the immediate corollary to that 13 question is one way of getting the background down to 14 start to eliminate certain unessential cr unnecessary uses. 15 Do you -- 16 MR.RHODES: Kell, I would have to make my 17 original comment, I don't know what the growing background, 18 whether it's growing, how much is being lost back into 19 the soil. You know, Z don't know the overall -- 20 But I would comment, I would agree with one of 21 the comments that several people have made. The KIOSH 22 optical procedure is a poor way to measure background. 23 On the other baud, if you're trying to get a 24 comparison with what's going on in the immediate: vicinity, it re ill'- is the cnlv way wo have to do it without * 1 i t i KMX 01018 20S I going into c. long, involved trunsnissibn electron nicror:- z copy approach. . 3 So the reliability oftho background numbers, ! / I got it somewhere. I looked up the NIOSE conclusion and : 5 here's what -- their conclusion after looking at all the i 6 date they had a year or so ago, was conothing less than ' 7 .01 fibers, and they raally didn't know specifically what ' 3 it was or how to convert that to anagrams per cubic meter. i & I can give you the reference on that, it's a kiosh criteria j t TO document of *76 or so on the l/10th fiber for asbestos. n MR. BXGXQ: The second question I had, most ; ( -t ! 'i -L of the discussion today has been about the instantaneous 13 short tern exposure, as for instance during the few hours 14 or the day, that a particular job might be going on. j 15 Do you have any data, or have you looked into 16 at all the question of the recycling contamination, in 1 t ' 17 other words you've put this aebeatos fiber into the I T8 house, dwelling, school, whatever it may be. Presumably ; i1 19 it's going to be there a long time and can be stirred up \ 20 repeatedly. 21 Do you have any dr-.ta on that, as to what the 22 secondary exposures might be? 23 HR. RHODESi tvs.M., an the first test that we f tI 24 ran, wa rr.n a day in the hcv--. before, and we ran a day afterward, and we could* r <. A -- within the precis ion > KWX <*19 210 e* the optical method, you couldn't find ar.y difference. MP., ftIGIOs Did you make sny attempt to stir up the dust or -- HR. RHODE.'?: Well, vc vacuumed before, we vacuum cleaned after. KR. BIGIO: Before and after -- HR. RHODESt Bell, ve started -- NR. BIGIO: And you took measures during the vacuuming. MR, RHODES: Measured it right after the vacuum ing, right. MR. BIGIO: And you fonnd essentially -- MR. RHODES: 005, 003, 006, something of that nature. I only recorded ono number because we just can't get a better number on the method, whether it's 005, plus or nines, 05. Be did the best wa could with that. MR.BIGIO: Giay, thank you, those were ay two questions. CHAIRMAN BTIHGSOX: Okay. Sfcacter. KS. SHACtER: Do you manufacture any compounds, patching compound that contains asbestos? HR. RHODES: Rc. >?S. SHACTSR . very Koch . KMX 01020 CHAIRlikK BYIHGTOt: t Right there. MU. BAYRRB; fcy i'.ao ift Steven Bayard, fron the Consumer Product Safety Coumioeion. Earry, I just wanted to point one ti-iarr oat to yon, m&yba a couple of things. But on page 6 you spent a lot of time discussing the risk based on the model which we used, and the one phrase that X want to dial with is on page sin, in the middle, you said that you're going to use this model, which is heavily biased towards predicting a high risk. Well, in fact the model is heavily biased at consumer levels to predicting a very, very low risk, and X want you to keep this in mind. When X made a presenta tion to the commissioners at one point, X compared the models that we used, that we used eventually, finally, with another model which was a single hit model that you've also discussed. And we showed that the single hit model would predict a risk which was 250 times higher than that model, that we did use. The Commission believes, at least X believe, that this model that we ucoa is more correct, in fact, as you point out later or there is a time to dose, and tine to tumor, based on dose. KP.. RKODESt Yes. , KMX 01021 212 1 MU. BA.7&F.D: That the lover doss will Indicate 2 c higher tiaie until terror. But, still, at the low consumer 3 levels., and ^you're had eono of your analysts look at this, 4 you'll find out that thir model falls off very, very S rapidly in terms of the type of dose and the type cf 6 response. 7 So that -- 8 MR. RHODES j Palls right off the table at the lowest -- SO HR. BAYARD < Very, vary rapidly, and - It MR. RHODESt X ran out of table. . 12 MR. BAYARDt Yes. What I'm saying is it's a 13 very, very conservative typo model in predicting risk 14 because it's very, very low risk, at low consumer levels. 15 X can't imagine a modal that would predict a 16 lover risk. So that when we came up with a figure of 10 17 deaths per million excess, we said even at this minimum 18 figure that's still pretty high. Me just didn't like it. 19 That's all I'm pointing out to you. 20 MR. RHODESs Weil, all I'm doing is using the 21 model with nunbars which we believe are more representative 22 of the consumer exposure, c.r,c illustrating what it 23 says. 24 How if yen wish CHAi'RKRH EYIKGIOt, Okay. *WX 01022 13 * ' ; lilt. RHODE?: I do?.'t want to argue the codol 21 I'm not a statistician, l*u roaliy tot competent to.. i3 > CnhlFJ'j.i; ETXHGaOi: Ail right, wail ve want to *! ) 5! j ^l S H thank. you very nnoh. HR. Rl!0b2Gs Okay. CHAIRKAH BYXHGTON: Eor coming down. .7 We went to thank all of the other people who 8 i: have participated. i! 9|! Again, I remind everyone that interested to >! ti!l -1 ;! it i: i ptii'tont, including those speaking today, may submit written comments and other related information to the Office of the Secretary, on both the proposed ban6 as veil as u1 14 |j if t5 ii 16 8 is 171 the issues discussed, until August the 29th, 1977. MR. RHODES: Can X ask a final question? Do I ova you anything now, or have 1 answered the questions or -- COMMISSIONER PITTIiE: There are some materials 16II you said you would provide. is >: 11 HR. RHODES: Okay, thank you. zo 'j CHAXRK&N BYXHGTOE: we can chock our notes to i'j t* * i^iii1. see if there's anything. }!/ / v_ 22 ;! Thank you very much, we stand adjourned. C.O ii, (Whereupon, efe p.r. the meeting was ad c 2/!; journed .) STATE OF CALIFORNIA TITLE 8 Division or Industrial. Safett General Industry Safety Orders (Rcglittr 78, No. 27--7 3-76) 6208. Asbestos, (a) The 8-hour time-weighted average concen tration of airborne asbestos fibers to which any employee may be ex posed shall not exceed 2 fibers, longer than 5 micrometers, per cubic centimeter of air as determined by the membrane filter method using phase contrast illumination and 400 to 450X magnification. The ceiling or short time concentration to which employees are exposed shall not exceed 10 fibers, longer than 5 micrometers, per cubic centimeter of air. ` (b) Engineering Controls. Controls such as, but not limited to, isolation, enclosnre, exhaust ventilation, and dust collection shall be used to meet the exposure limits in Section 5203 (a). All hand-operated and power-operated tools which may produce or release asbestos fibers in excess of such limit shall be provided with local exhaust ventilation systems. The American National Standards Institute Z9.2-1971 Stand ard Governing the Design and Operation of Local Exhaust Systems shall be used as a guide to design, construct, install, and maintain exhaust ventilation and dust collection systems. . (c) Work Practices. Asbestos shall be mixed, handled, applied, removed, cut, or otherwise worked wet insofar as practicable. Asbestos spills shall be cleaned up promptly. Asbestos-containing cement, mor tar, coating, grout, plaster, or similar material shall not be removed from bags, cartons, or other containers without being wetted, unless it is enclosed and/or ventilated to effectively control airborne fibers as specified in Section 520S (a). Asbestos waste, scrap, debris and asbestos contaminated materials consigned for disposal shall be col lected and disposed in sealed impermeable bags or containers. (d) Respiratory Protective Equipment. When engineering con trols and wet handling methods are not feasible or are incapable of controlling the concentration or in an emergency, respiratory protec tion shall be provided and worn in accordance with provisions of Sec tion 5144 and the follisring requirements: (1) Reusable oi* single-use air filtering respirators shall be used when the concentration exceeds the levels specified in Section 5208 (a), but may not be used when the concentra tion may reasonably be expected to exceed 10 times lhe limit. (2) Powered air filtering respirators may be worn for lower concentrations, but shall be worn when the asbestos fiber concentration is reasonably expected to exceed 10 times, but not 100 times the limit in Section 5203 (a). (3) Continuous flow or pressure demand air-liue respira tors or self-contained breathing apparatus may be worn for lower concentrations, but shall be worn when the asbestos fiber concentration is reasonably expected to exceed 100 times the limit in Section 520S (a). (4) No employee shall be assigned to tasks requiring the . pse of respirators if based on his most recent examination an examining physician determines that the employee will be unable to function normally wearing a respirator or that the safety or health of the employee or other employees will be impaired by his use of a respirator. Such employee shall be rotated to an equivalent job whose duties he is able to per form, if such a position is available. KMX 01023 2- - (e) Change Rooms and Special Clothing. (1) The employer shall provide and require the use of special clothing such as coveralls or similar whole body cloth ing, head coverings, gloves, and foot coverings for any em ployee exposed to airborne concentrations of asbestos fibers, which exceed the ceiling level prescribed in Section 5208 (a). (2) At any fixed place of employment exposed to air borne concentrations of asbestos fibers in excess of the ex posure limits prescribed in Section 5208 (a), the employer shall provide change rooms for employees working regularly at the place, and shall provide two separate lockers or con tainers for each employee, so separated or isolated as to pre vent contamination of the employees' street clothes from his work clothes. (f) Laundering. (1) Laundering of asbestos-contaminated clothing shall be done so as to prevent the release of airborne asbestos fibers ip excess of the exposure limits prescribed in Section 5208 (a). (2) Any employer who gives asbestos-contaminated cloth ing to another person for laundering shall inform such per son of the requirement in Section 5208 (f) (1) to effectively prevent the release of airborne asbestos fibers in excess of the exposure limits prescribed in Section.5203 (a). (3) Contaminated clothing shall be transported in sealed impermeable bags or other closed, impermeable containers, and labeled in accordance with Section 5208 (i). (g) Monitoring and Record Keeping. (1) Monitoring. (Revision adopted 11/1/76) (A) The employer shall sample the air and determine the concentration of asbestos fibers within the breathing zone of employees whose exposure to airborne asbestos may exceed an 8-hour time-weighted average concentration of 1 fiber, longer than 5 micrometers, per cub^: centimeter or a ceiling concen tration of 10 fibers, longer than 5 micrometers, per cubic centimeter due to work assignments) at or near operations with asbestos or asbestos-containing products which result in the release of asbestos fibers. (B) Following any change in control, process, or production method which may alter the airborne concentration of asbestos, the emoloyer shall monitor the level of any employee's exposure which may have been affected by such change. (C) Monitoring shall be repeated at least once every 6 months where exposure to airborne asbestos may exceed an 8-hour time-weighted average concentration of 1 fiber, longer than 5 micrometers, per cubic centimeter or a ceiling con centration of 10 fibers, longer than 5 micrometers, per cubic centimeter. (0) The sampling of airborne asbestos required by this paragraph shall be performed in a manner which will assure a reasonably accurate determination and shall be made without regard to employee use of respiratory protective equipment. (E) All determinations of airborne concentrations of asbestos fibers performed under requirements of this section shall use the membrane filter method with phase contrast Illumination, 400 to 460X magnification, and 4 millimeter objective. KMX 01024 3- - (2) Record Keeping. Every employer shall maintain records of any personal or environmental monitoring re quired by this subsection. Records shall be maintained for a period of at least 20 years and shall be made available upon request to the Chief of the Division of Industrial Safety, the Director of the State Department of Health, and to author ized representatives of either. Upon written request of an employee, a former employee, or an employee representative of either, the employer shall furnish the monitoring record of that employee or former employee. In the event the em ployer ceases to do business and there is no successor to re ceive and retain his records for the prescribed period, these records Bhall be transmitted by registered mail to the Director, National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, U.S. Department of Health, Education and Welfare, and each employee shall be notified in writing of this transfer. (h) Caution Signs. (1) Posting. Caution signs shall be provided and dis played at each location where airborne concentrations of as bestos fibers may be in excess of the exposure limits prescribed in Section 5203 (a). Signs shall be posted at such a distance from such a location so that an employee may read the signs and take necessary protective steps before entering the area marked by the signs. Signs shall be posted at all approaches to areas containing excessive concentrations of airborne asbestos fibers. . (2) Sign Specifications. The warning signs required by subparagraph (h)(1) shall conform to the requirements of format signs specified in Section 6003 (d)(4) of the General Industry Safety Orders and to this subparagraph. The signs shall display the following legend in the lower panel, with the letter sizes and styles of a visibility at least equal to that specified in this subparagraph. Legend Notation Asbestos 1" Sans Serif, Gothic or Block Dust Hazard------------ --- J" Sans Serif, Gothic or Block Avoid Breathing Dust ---i" Gothic Wear Assigned Protective Equipment--______-i" Gothic Do Not Remain In Area Unless Your Work Requires It_________-i" Gothic Breathing Asbestos Dust May Be Hazardous To Your Health-------- .14 Point Gothic Spacing between lines shall be at least equal to the height .of the upper of any two lines. (i) Caution Labels. (1) Labeling. Caution labels shall be affixed to all raw materials, mixtures, scrap, waste, debris, and other products containing asbestos fibers or to their containers, except that no label is required where asbestos fibers have been modified by a bonding agent, coating, binder, or other material so that during any reasonably foreseeable use, handling, storage, dis posal, processing, or transportation, no airborne concentra tions of asbestos fibers in excess of the exposure limits pre scribed in Section 5203 (a) will be released. For large outdoor storage such ns mine ore tailings piles, labeling shall not be required if properly posted. _ KMX 01025 -4- (2) Label Specifications. Caution labels required by this subsection shall be conspicuous ntid legible and shall con tain the following or equivalent warning: CAUTION ' Contains Asbestos Fibers Avoid Creating Dust Breathing Asbestos Dust May Cause Serious Bodily Harm (j) Medical Examinations. (Revision adopted 11/1/76) (1) The employer shall provide or make available at no cost to the employee a comprehensive preplacement medical examination by a licensed physician for each employee engaged In an occupation where exposure to airborne asbestos, without regard to the use of respiratory protective equipment, has been determined to exceed, or may be reasonably expected to exceed, an 8-hour time-weighted average concentration of 1 fiber, longer than 5 micrometers, per cubic centimeter or a ceiling concentration of 10 fibers, longer than 5 micrometers, per cubic centimeter. The examination shall be provided or made available within 30 calendar days of an employee's initial assignment to such occupation and shall include as a minimum a 14-inch by 17-inch chest X-ray (posterior-anterior), a history to elicit sympto matology of respiratory disease, and pulmonary function tests to Include forced vital capacity (FVC) and forced expiratory volume at one second (FEV^ Q). (2) At least annually every employer shall provide or make available at no cost to the employee a medical examination to employees as specified in paragraph (j)(l). The employer shall provide or make available, within 30 days of termination of employment of any employee exposed to airborne asbestos, a medical examination as specified in paragraph (j)(l), if such examination has not been taken within the previous year of termination. NOTE: Pursuant to authority granted by Labor Code Section 6305(b), the Division, upon the advice of the Department of Health, may require an employer to make additional diagnostic test(s) available during medical examinations performed under the provisions of this paragraph when a preponderance of evidence indicates the advis ability of such supplemental testing. (3) Records shall be kept of medical examinations required by this subsection for each employee; such records shall be maintained by the employer for at least 30 years. Access to records of medical examinations required by this subsection shall `be made available for inspection and copying to the Division of Industrial Safety, the Department of Health, and to authorized physicians or medical consultants of either of them. Upon written request of an employee or former employee, the employer shall provide a copy of the medical examination record to the employee's or former employee's physician. Any physician who conducts a medical examination required by this subsection shall furnish the employer of the examined employee or former employee all the Information required by this subsection and any other medical Information related to occupational exposure to asbestos. (k) Employee Notification. (New section adopted 11/1/76) Any employee found to have been exposed to asbestos fibers In excess of either of the permissible limits prescribed by subsection (a) shall be notified in writing of the exposure within 5 days of the finding. The individuals so exposed shall also be notified of the corrective action, in compliance with subsections (b), (c), (d), (e) and (f) being taken by the employer. KMX 01026 Senate Sill No. 2418 I CHAPTER U32 . ` An act to add Chapter 10.3 (commencing inth Section 25910) to lh \ i'mi >n 20 of the Health and Safety Code, relating to spraying of asbestos. . [ \|>i>ruvc<i by Covornor September 26, 1874: Filed will) . , Secretary of Slate September 26, IS74.J i - . .* LEGISLATIVE COUNSEL'S DIGEST '' SR 2419. Marks. Spraying of asbestos. l'li'lnluls any |H'rson, on or after July 1, 1675, from causing or pemniimg lln* spraying of any substance confuining more than Vi of lcr asbestos in or u|>on a building or other structure during its con*-" sirui lion, alteration, or repair; and, on or after July 1,1676, similarly " prohibits the spraying of any substance containmg any amount of asbestos. ' \Kxempls cold process cutback asphalt roof coatings from such' prohibitions. Provides that notwithstanding Sec. 2231, Revenue and Taxation ('ode, there shall be no reimbursement pursuant to that section nor any appropriation made by this act for a specified reason. The /s .>/;/< of the State of California do enact as follows: Si:t t n N 1. Chapter 10.3 (commencing with Section 25610) is added to Division 20 of the Health and Safety Code, to read; Charter 10.3. Spraying of Asbestos 2Vi|(i. No person, on or after July 1,1975, shall cause or permit the spraying of any substance containing more than ono*half of 1 percent, asbestos m or upon a building or other structure during its coosirui tinii. alteration, or repair. No person, on or after July 1,1976, shall cause ..r permit the spraying of any substance containing any amount of asbestos in or upon a building or other structure during its construction, alteration, or repair. ('..Id process eutback asphalt roof coatings shall lx* exempted from the pmvisious of this chapter. 25611. Any .violation ol this chapter shall be a misdemeanor. Si:< . 2. Notwithstanding Section 2231 of the Rovenuc and T.ivaiino Code, there shall hi* no reimbursement pursuant to that seel cm mu shall there In* any appropriation made by this act becuuxe the I a'gisliilure recognizes that during any legislutivo session a variety of change* to luws relating to crimes und Infractions may cause both increased und decreased costs to local government 2 2419 2B 61 Ch. 1432 : i --2 -- -. entities and school districts which, in the aggregate, do not result in significant identifiable cost changes. t KMX 01027