Document 8ppBRbgoqkmJ6RrmXYaZEL7B

1. 6 8 1 - IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF THE UNITED STATES 2 FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS BEAUMONT DIVISION CECIL SCOTT, ET AL V . C.A. NO. B-84-1103-CA MONSANTO COMPANY 8 9 1 0 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF 1 1 PAUL GEORGE BENlGNUS 12 VOLUME II 1.3 14 15 16 17 April 21, 1987 18 Gilpin, Pohl & Bennett 1300 Post Oak Boulevard, 24th Floor 19 Hous ton, Texas 20 21 22 2 3 Cheryll K. LeFevers Texas CSR No. 1690/Notary Public 2 4 Nell McCallua & Associates 2900 Saith, Suite 104 2 5 Houston, Texas 77006 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000240 Jh L APPE! AKANCKB ; 2 3 For t he Plaintiffs : 4 DAVID M. LACK* WILLIAM I.TTTI.K 5 0 i. .1. pin, Poh l <i Bennett 1 3 0 (1 Post Oak Boulevard, 7.4 1 h F oo r 6 Houston, Texas 77056 7 For the Defendant: 0 WALTKR J. CRAWFORD, JR. 9 CHKRVTL D. Of.RSRN Wells, Peyton, Beard, Greenberg I 0 Hunt & Crawford Petroleum Building 1 l P.O. Box 3708 Beaumont, Texas 77704 1.2 1 3 The Videographer: I. 4 JOHNNA COAT,BON Rxecutive Services Group 15 P.O. Rox 890306 Houston, Texas 77289-0306 16 17 1 fl 19 20 2l 7.2 7.3 24 25 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000241 1 /u I. Videotaped deposition of PA fit. GEORG R 2 BENIGNUS, Volume IT, a witness called by the 3 Plaintiffs, on April 21., 1907 , at the o f-' f: ices of 4 Gilpin, P o h .1 & Bennett., 1300 Post. Oak Boulevard, fi 24 th Floor, Houston, Texas, c om me nr. i n<j at 9:30 a.m., 6 before Cheryll K. r.eKevers, CAR No. 1690 and Notary 7 Public i. n and for the State of Texas, pursuant to fl Notice and Subpoena and the Federal Rules of Civil 9 Procedure. 10 I. I 12 13 14 I fl 16 l7 1 fl 19 20 2l 22 2.1 24 2 fl NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000242 1 rNDRX 2 3 WITNESS : PAUL GEORGE RRN.TGNUS 4 E' EXAMINATION RY: 6 Mr. Ucey 7 B 9 t0 ]1 12 13 1.4 1 Ei 16 17 18 J9 20 7.1 22 23 24 2fi )/l PAGE L 72 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000243 l / 2. I JL R. P_ <1 ]i R n I n o s 2 THK VrDKOCIRAPHKM : We .ire now 3 continuing the deposit-ion of Mr. Paul Fieniqnus. The 4 time is 9:35 a . m . 5 6 7 PAD 1. GRORGK HRN TGNU S , 8 having been previously duly sworn, testified as 9 f o I .lows : L0 1 1 KXAMINATION HY MR. I.ACKYt I 2 Q. Mr. Renignus, Last night as we stopped your 1 3 deposition -- actually yesterday afternoon, T guess t 4 it was, a LittLe after 5:00, we went through a group i r> of document.s by just, .identifying numbor that. I L 6 wanted to have you review and see III you can help us 1 7 learn something about them. 18 Did you have a c hano e last n i.<j h 1*. to 1 9 take a look at. some of these documents to see what. 1 2 0 warn interested in? 2.1 A . We looked at. all we had - 2 2 Q. Okay. 2 3 A. - - w hirh was a large n umber. 2 4 Q. Okay. You did find most of them? 2 8 A. Oh, yes. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000244 1 /3 I Q Let me - l ' ve hr Led to group these 2 together as we g o throughi t.hem 3 A . Right. 4 Q -- in categories, and 1 want. t. o talk about 3 individual doc umen I: a . The first mm I'd l i ke to 6 sho w you .is the document numbered lb 19 through* lb 28 7 and ask . f y o u c;an identify that document for me. 8 A . Yes. The subject, is "The A r odors." This 9 lia t g the Aroc tor compounds that were made. It ] 0 J j ft t h Swan i) Chemical at. - t. he. plant, is at Anniston, l l A L a b a m a . Th i. s is Swann Chem i ca 1. . 1 2 So, t.ha t relates to the Aroc.1 ors at 1.3 Swann Chemical Company. 1 4 Q . Okay, Can you tell the; date of that IS document from look l nq F think inside on the first 16 page, inside, there may be some information on l 7 that. 1 8 A . It. says 1932, 19 Q. Okay. Now, this won Id have been a 2 0 document, then, produced by Swann prior to i to 2 1 purchase by Monsanto? 2 2 A . This is correct., 2 3 Q And nobody at Monsanto would have actually 24 had direct, involvement, in preparing that particular 2 S document? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000245 ) ' -4 I . A. No. 7. Q. Rxcept. t.o l.ht) extent, those people became 3 Monsanto emp J. o yees after they wore acquired by 4 Monsanto? 5 A . Right. 6 Q. Okay . 7 MR. CRAWKORhi Okay. Tf you know, 8 Mr. Renignus, about the employees. He's asking you 9 specifically about, that. l 0 THR WITNRSSi 1 said it's correct. 1 1 MR. CRAWFORD: Okay. l 2 Q. (Fly Mr. Lacey) Now, with regard to the 1 3 information that's contained in that, donment., do ]. 4 you know anything abou t the source of the i r:> information for what's .in there? l 6 A. Other than the sources from the ttwann 1 7 ChemicaJ Company. IB Q. Nothing beyond that? 1 9 A. Nothing beyond that, that I know of. 7.0 Q. Okay. Let me have that document back, and 7 i we'll put that, in a stack over here that, we've 7 7. Looked at. 7 3 l.et me next, show you the Document. JbOfl 3 4 through L S I. B and ask if you can identify that 7. f. d o cume n t. . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000246 1 '5 1 A . Rssen t La l I. y t: h e a a m e h h i n g . 2 Q . Okay. Can you t.e J .1 whf:n that, one w a a 3 written? 4 A . 19 3 4. !S Q. Ho, that, would be an updated v era ion 6 A. Right. 7 Q . - - of t. h e one we j u a t .looked at? H Alao written by Swann? 9 A. Correct. 1 0 Q. Prior to it.a acquisition by Monsanto? l l A . Right. 1 2 Q. And you don't know anything about the l 3 a on roe of the information contained in thi. a 1 4 docunent? 15 A . N o . ] ft Q. Do you know whether- or not these pieces of I. 7 literature were provided t.o anyone outai.de Swann? .1 0 A. T would certainly think a o. 19 Q. Okay. Now, in 1935 Swann was acquired by 2.0 Monsanto, correct? 7. t h. Correct. 2?. Q. Okay. Now, 1 e. t . m e j \i a t 1 e a v e. t. h i fl 2 3 d o c u in e n t, the one that's the 1934 document, there 7 4 f o r your review; and .1 e t me show yon now a donimeiit 2 5 1. 5 5 9 through l5 B 0. And i. t '3 (JO t a number on it. NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000247 1 /b I Application Data fl u I. I. e t i. n No. I? -1 IS. 2 T he f i ra 1. t h .i n cj 1 want. t. o try to do i a 3 Identity where that document came Prom. Do you know 4 where that, document, would have - - who would have 5 or i i;i. nated that document? 6 A. Monsanto Chemical Company. 7 Q . And w a a that document t h Monsanto version H of the previous Swann documents in t.erB of the 9 information it contained? } 0 A. That's essentially correct., yes. L l Q. Now, do you know when that document was 1 2 prepared ? 1 3 A . Well , X see a date here, 1945. l 4 Q Okay . Tha t 1' a a date 3 tamp on iit? 1 5 A . X t ' a d a t. e s t. a p . l 6 Q. Okay . That ia not a copyright da to like is 1 7 in the Swann documents? 1 8 A, No. ft 1.3 different, The Swann documents 1 9 had a copyright date. Someone stamped this, dated 2 0 it June, 194.S. 21 Q. And what we can te'll from that <1 a t.e a tamp 2 2 is that that, at least, was in existence by June of 2 3 19 4 5 because a June, ' 4 5, date stamp is on i l ? 2 4 A. t would assume so. 7 5 q . 11 t) j e s s somebody went, back with a date s t a m p NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000248 l// 1 to specif! i. caLi. y back date it, that would bo true. 2 wou 1 <ln ' t i t? 1 A . T would think so. 4 Q . Now, d o you have any id ea o f w h en l h n t. 5 (t o e u in e n t was actually prepared, how much in a d v a n c e ft of June, 19 4!-)? 7 A. No, T don't. H Q. Okay. Bhat group or department within 9 Monsanto would be responsible for producing 1 0 documents like that? 1 1 A. This "P" indicates the phosphate division, 2I. whi. ch i s the inorganic division. i :i Q. That was the division you worked for with t 4 rega rd to - i b A. I.ater on. i f> Q. pen's in the 194 7 - 1 7 A. Yeah. I. H Q. -- and following period? 19 A, Yeah. 2 0 Q. So, if: we sec the letter " P" on a document., 2 t we know it came from the phosphate division, 2 2 correct.? 2 3 A . Well, t h i s one, since it's the only letter, 2 4 t. h is is co c r o c t . 2t> Q. Okay. And within t. h a t group - - is there a NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000249 L / i) .1 pari'. L c u I. a r g r o u p o r p a r t L c u L a r up ec i. a I. t y t: h a t 1 s 2 assigned t-ho responsibi l it.y of actua I J y prepuri ng 3 documents of this I: y p e ? 4 A. Well, this - - this nee:ms to he coming out 5 t>e o r e m y I: i. m o , b u t i. t. would be applicable; so, i: ' I. I. 6 answer i t. on that, basis. 7 Doc urn <5 n t. a of this type are prepared by H people who have assembled this technical information 9 and have put It together in rough form. Then the 1 0 procedure in usually to - not. in all cases -- but, l l I would think, writers of literature. And these 1 2 people would be in the advertising department, not n n ee e a :s a r i l y in e a n i n g w r I. t i ng a rt g , e t cetera, b u t J 4 we'll have them in this department. They are 19 writers. T h o y p u t this into a final finished f or*, 1 6 a ri d that (jives rise to this, for example. t 7 Q . So, you have people who are skilled i. n -- 1 a in writing things that, make sense and are 19 understandable, who actually put it in final, form? 2 A. This is r orree f. 2 l Q. What was the purpose of preparing 2 2 1 i tera ture of t.ha t. a or t.7 2 3 A. The purpose of preparing literature of this 2 4 sort, was to distribute it to customers of the 2 5 company who were buying the Aroclors, the subject of: NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000250 1 /9 l t h i s , to (iisaeni.ni to and d I s t r i l) u L e i n f o r m a t i o n t o ?. thane people. Th.it was the purpose. 3 Q. Okay. 'Jo, It was iloa Lijnml to provide to 4 customers? 5 A . R a h e n t i. a I I. y / yes. 6 Q. Okay. Whnl 1 a the relationship between 7 Monsanto Chemical. Company and Monsanto Company? I H notice that say a "Monsanto Chemical Company" on it. 9 A. Oh, In later years the "Chemical" was 1 0 eliminated. That, i a all. l l Q . okay. Now, let me show you another 1 2 <i o c u m e n 1., 3 3 throucjli S3. And, in particular, I'm I ) a g a i n L n to roa ted i n try i. ng to de termine whether or 1 4 not. this is the a a me document, as the one that you l 5 have just looked at or whether it's a different 1 f doniment . 1 / A. Well, without, going through each page, it. 18 cert a Inly appears to he the same. 19 Q. Okay. Waa there aome aequence that 2.0 Monsanto used in order to identify revised versions 7 ] of documents so, for example, when you were going to 7 7 give one to a customer you could make sure you gave 2 3 l. h e m the m o t. c u r r e n t. o n e ? 2 4 A. [ don't know of a formal, procedures. These 2 S were reissued when they ran out. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000251 1 (I 1 Q. Okay . 2 A. That 1 9 ('aaentidlJy the modus operandi . 3 Q And the only way y o u cou 1.d (jet a n e w one is 4 if somebody d id a n ew one and , hopeful 3 y, t b c: y w o u 1 d t. h r o w the o Ld ones away and have the news o n e 3 r e a d y (> to hand out when there was a new one, then? 7 A. Yes . H Q . Hut .i f: .... <> A. Now now, 1 am not certain. There are LO some numbers often i. n these things. I don't see 1 1 them now, but. if If saw such a set of numbers - l 2 sometimes there is an indication as to the number of 1 3 printings that were made and perhaps something about l 4 the date, but r ' not sure of that. Those numbers 1 !i often are confusing to me. tft Q. Okay. Well, let mo see - Let me look at 1 7 t h i s one j u s t. a second and see if I can find the IB sort of thing you're talking about. 1 9 Where do t.hone numbers appear? 2 0 aually at the end of Lho document? 21 A. 3 would think so. That's where I .looked. 2 2 I didn't find any. 2. \ Q, Okay. Well, I don't find one on this one 2A either. f.et me just give you another document. 2. H W e ' I J j u s t g o t o a n o l. h e r one here. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.. WATER PCB-SD0000000252 1BI I ket me It and you Document 1597 through 2 J 5 5 fl , a 1 iio labeJ ed "Application Dat a Bulletin 3 P -1 i 5 , " and ask you to take a Look at: that:. And, in 4 particular, I think on the next to laat page oT that 5 document, down at the lower Lett hand corner, there f. are Home numbers down there. 7 A . Yes, t h i. s is the k i n d of thin q T was 8 looking for. 9 Q W h a t. sort, of t.h i ng s do those numbers stand l 0 for w i t h in Monsanto Company? 1 1 A . 1 d o not. know. l ?. 0.. Okay 1 3 A . T d o y> o t. know. l 4 Q. Can y o u t o L1 from that document that f'v e J 8 j u a t. handed you wlirthfir i t ' a older or newer than 1 h e l 8 two previous versions of nuJ. Let in P-115 that you've 1 7 looked at? ] 8 A. 0 f f h a ml, no. They look very similar to me. 19 Q. Well, is there any way you con Id review 90 them and tell me which one is older and which one ia 2 l newer? 2 2 A. (No response) 2 1 Q. if there is any difference. 9 4 A . I don't, see any difference. 9.5 Q. Okay. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000253 I rl t A. r see no d i. i: f e r n n o e 2 Q. Okay. I.et me hand you another "Application 3 Data Bulletin P-115," numbered 1501 Ihvouqh l fi () 5 4 and, aqain, on the last, page there, down at the 5 lower lef t-hiind side, there's another serins ot: 6 letters and numbers -- - and ask you if you nan, from 7 that. Identify anything about it. 8 A. Here, I would say the numbers H--4 7-7 1 may 9 mean August, '47, 1971. 1 0 Q . Well, that doesn't. make sense. though, does 1 t i t, because there aren't 47 days in August? 1 2 A . Oh , excuse me. No , T said 1947. l 3 Q Oh , 19 4 7? 1 4 A . Oh , T> o . Wa it a mi nil t.e . Wa i. t. a minute. 15 T - - s t r Ike that. 16 August., 194 7. What does the "71" l 7 mean ? r don 't know. 10 Q. I don't know. Hut. if you were qoinq to try 19 to date that, you would assume it's August, 1947? 20 A. Until I qot. mixed up with the number 71, 2 l that I don't know what it means. 2 2 Q. Okay. Do you have any idea, looking at 2 3 that code, when that document was produced? 24 A , I'm not. sure from this --- this code t hat .... 2 5 I'm confused with the code, actually. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000254 i rt .t I. Q. Who lit Mona.inl;n would know about: hliesfi code 2 nunbera and how to identify when these various 1 documents were printed, if: anybody? 4 A . My best, guess on t. h i s As someone in this 5 d e pa r tinlit. I re t:( r red to earlier, call i t: 6 "advertising department." or "literature department." 7 Q. You t h l n k they might have a key to these 0 codes? 9 A . If there is one. t 0 Q. Okay. 1 1 A. If there is one. I. 2. Q. Now, let mo show you some more copies of 1 3 this same, tml ] i i n . The next number is 1606 through l 4 1614; and on this one, I ' d ask you. a g a i n , to took 1 !> a t t h e next: t o 1 a a t. page and let me know whettie r or 16 not you have any idea of what those letters and J 7 number a stand for. l 8 A . Yeah , I s e o 1: h i s . 1 9 Q. Okay . What, do t.hos e letters and numbers 2 0 stand for? 2 1 A . "P . G. M." are my ini l i a 1 s 22 Q A L L v igh t . ? :i A . "10, " 1 would assume is 0 c t. o b e r . 2 4 Q Okay 2 b A . T h e year 194 H. And, again , t h .i s number 7 1 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000255 i l) 4 I up here i. s 2 Q. Okay. Now, why would your i n i t. i a .1 a a p pear :j on that d o e u m e n t ? 4 A . 0n th i y doo ume n tV *5 Q Ves . 6 A . T t was a reissue of the prior- docuraents in 7 1 9 4 R , and l was In that area at. that time. H Q. Would tliat. mean that, you had rev i ewed that. 9 d o c u m e n t p r 1 o r to Its issuance to ensure that It was 1 0 a c c. u t a t e and a o on and ao forth? l l A . L would s ay so. 1 2 Q. That. "71" is the name number that, appeared n the prior document that we - 1 4 A . Yea . 1 L Q- couldn't figure out , isn't i tv l 6 A . Yeah . 1 7 Q- Now, if that, number ri g h t. there means that L li you Issued that in - what did you say? October of 1 9 1940 -2 0 A. '48 . 2 1 Q . If we use the flame id e nt i f ic a tion, when 2 2 would that previous document have been issued? 7 3 A . 3 9 4 7. 2 4 Q. Okay. And whose initials are there -- or 2 9 what letters are there in front o f: t h a t ? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.. WATER PCB-SD0000000256 I H` I A . " i?. r, . " 2 Q. Who would " i*. r.. " boy :i A . i'd say 1. hat. would be Paul, toque. 4 Q. Paul ho we? Yi A . f.oque, h 0 0 ft i;, 6 Q Pi d Mr. toque precede you in the job tha t. 7 you held when these things were issued under your H i ni t ,i a .1 s ? 9 A. Paul toque and 1 were in what they called l 0 the development de pn. r I: mo n t . Yes, we were together 1 1 Q. Okay And, no, it would make sense that 12 the document;:} labeled " P . t." were reviewed by 1 2 Mr. toque before they went, out .... 14 A . Right. 1 '.I <> - as a part, of his job responsibilities I b with Mo n n a n to; is that cor r net? 1 7 A . T would say this is correct., IB Q And, 30, let - let's go back now and let 19 me take a look at - can you hand me those documents 2.0 just a second, and let ine look here? 2) We'vo (jol lot's soe. I.ot me look 2 2 at t h e one just prior to that, see it that: has a set 2 2 of initials on it or not. 24 Okay. W o don't h a v e the first one 2 b we've q o t. a s e t of i n i l. j a J s on, as far as 1 can NELL MCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000257 Ih 1 tLL, i3 this Do c ii me n I; l SHI throuqh L 6 0 b , which it '?. would appear was i iia'iod under Mr, I.ocjue's direction 3 in August of 1947; is t h a. t correct, from the code on 4 i t? h A . 1 think 3 o . 6 Q. Okay. Then the next one we've got with the 7 Letters a n d numbers in this Document 1606 throuqh fl 16 3 4 t. h a t apparently wan i aaiied after your review in 9 October of 1948; in that correct? 1 0 A . it has my initial. That, doesn't, mean that I. 1 o t h e r s d i. <1 n't rsvinw t h i. 3 . 1 2 Q . Okay. Hut y o u - 1. 3 A . Out, these .ire my initials, and the other 1 4 ones are Paul I.ogue. 1 can see this. l i Q, And -- and you would have had at least a 1 6 review r e pon s i b i 1 i t.y for that document., wouldn't, L 7 you? i a A . Yeg . 19 Q. Okay. And that was issued apparently in 2 0 October of 1940? 2 1 A. I would say so ?. Q . Okay. pa A. -- according to these numbers. :m Q . f, e I; me show y o u another version of P - l Lb, 2 ?i document. 16 3b through 1663 and on the next to last NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000258 1 ct / I page i h has your i n i h L I. rj and hhe codft i n d i. c ,i l; i n ij 2 that on was issued in April of J949, does it not. V .3 A . Yes . 4 Q. Okay. Let me show you another version of 5 Application D a h a Hullftt. in P l I. S , Do c u m o n t L 6 6 4 6 t. ti ro u q )i 16 9 2. Again, on t. h e n e x l. to la u t page we 7 have your initials and the code indicating that was H issued in June of J9b0, correct? 9 A. Yes. 1 0 Q. Okay. I.et me show you another version of 1 t t h o. A p p I. i c a I: i o ii Data Hull i* h i n P I. I h , No. 1693 1 2 through 172 1 . And on the next, to last page we have 13 your initials and a code indicating that document 1 4 was issued in January of 19b2, correct? l `5 A. Yes . 1 6 Q . Okay. Let. me show you another copy of an l 7 Application Data flu l let in No. P-ltS, Document ri 5 1 H through H3, and direct your attention to the next, to 19 last page, which has your initials and a code 7 0 indicating this document was issued in November of 21 1952, correct? 2 2 A . Yes. 2 3 p . Let. iue show you a no t. he.r v e.r s i on of t h e 2 4 Application Data Bulletin P i L *5 , No. 1 7 2 2 through 2b 1712, and direct, your attention to the fourth page NELL MCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000259 tab I fir on the end where t here's a code <jLvi.ni/ your 2 initials and indicatinq t. h i s w a a issued in M n r c* h of .3 1953, correct? 4 A. Yea. 5 Q . Okay. Now, in the cast* of each one of ii t hea e do c u in on l;s where your initials a p pe.a r: L n t h e / date, code, you would have - either by youiseJf or 8 with others - havo reviewed these, documents b o f: o r e 9 they were sent, to the printers for printing and then l 0 d i a h r i. b u t i. o n ? J 1 A. Yes. ] ? Q, Were these printed in-house at Monsanto by I 3 Monsanto's own printing presses, or did they send 1 4 t. h e s e - J 5 A . N o . T h e y w <3 r e s e n t out.. 1 6 Q Okay. Do you know how many were presented 1 7 a t. one pr A n ting ? 1 8 T H K VIDROGKAPHER: Kxc use me. i have 19 to go off! the record for a minute. 2 0 (D i nissi o n o f f t. h e W e. c. o r d ) 2. \ TKK V I'D KOOK A PHKR : Wo are now back on 22 the record. The time is 9:58 a . in . ?. i q. (n y Mr. f.acey) Do you know how many of 21 l. h e s e any v er s A o n of t.h es e bo I J e t i n3 would be 2. `j printed at one printing by Monsanto? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.. WATER PCB-SD0000000260 1 A . Thy wnro, a a we 3 a L d , printed o u t 3 i d e . 2 Hut the quest i on i s how man y 0 opi es . 3 Q . Correct . Do you know? 4 A . I'm - - this i s one rcunon !I ' m ] 00k i nq a l li the numbers . Homo ot those - one sees fchi 3 number 6 71 7 Q. That, uppears in each one of these 8 d or. u me n t 3 . 9 A. That seems to be in each one. l 0 Now, here's a " 2 M t? 1 1 Q. Do yon know what. t. h a t. a t.adds for? t 2. A . r ' m not p. x t: u 3 e me - ' m not sure what 1 3 i t a 1. csnda for , but i t. may have. to do with the 1. 4 n u in b o r 1 { Q . Quantity V 16 A . The quantity. 1 wouidn ' 1 know w h a t. else, l 7 Q . ].' t d 0 h' i n i. t e L y appears that h h a 7 l t h a t ' 3 1 n 1 (I e a c. h one of. these codes is c o n 3 i stent, b e cause we 1.9 have the same Application Data nul. let in, doesn't it ? 2 0 A. Yes, I would think so. 2 l Q . All r i. (j h t . And it a p p e a r 3 t h a h " 7 l " 2 2 ref erenres A p p I i rati on Da t a M u J 1 e tin P - 1 1 t> , c.orr e c t ? ?.3 A, Thai.'3 - that's reasonable to assume, 24 would assume that.. Q . Now, let me - we'll come back and ta 1k NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000261 i >u I d bo u *'. I: hose b u l I. e t; 1 n a l. a te r - 2 A . All right.. ') Q. - but Li: t me try to Id*', ntlfy so**1 4 additional document ii here in ter inn of what they ') are. And Let me a tart by handing you a document b called " A p p J i a a I :i o n Data n u i 1 e t. i n No. 0 P - 1 1 b , " 1794 7 through 1024,, and isk you to take a look at that. H A . (W .i t n e g a complies) 9 Q . Did you review that document last night, or 1 0 one like .it? 1 I A. Oh, 1 saw it last night, yea- They have t 2 t h i. :> . 1 3 ft. What does the "OP -1 1b " mean as opposed to 1. 4 I; h e '* P - l l b " ? 1 b A . Th i a i a what T am trying to think, what, l 6 does that mean. The '' P , we decided, was t he 1 7 p hoiipbate d i v i a i o . I. 0 Q. That's what you told me, yes. 19 A . Right.. The " 0, " this, 1 do not know, other 2 0 than, by this point in time, the materials were in 2 1 the area of the organic chemicals division. 2 2 Q. Okay, There's a code number there on that 2 3 d o r. u morit, i a t here not? 2 4 A . This is what, l Looked for, 2f> Q , is there a code number t. h e. re? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000262 1 ') 1 I A . Yes. 2 Q. The e ode number c. o n c .1 u d e s with 1 h a t same 3 r e f e r e n c e t o " 71," does L t n o t ? 4 A . R i g h t . T h i s ) s r i g h t. . 5 Q Now, is that doc u m o n t has L c a 1. 1 y 1: i. 1. led with f> the same j nf o t m a t i o n t. h a t t. h e previous A p p .1 i cution 7 D a t a R u l L e t i n 3 R - J. 1 h were filled with ? B A. (No reaponwe) 9 Q. And i. f you flood to, you cun take a moment 1 0 to compare that document with one of the P-115 1. I dor u me n t s . 1 2 A. Well, without g o i rig through it page by 13 p a g e , i I; ' a essentially the name, 1 would 3 a y . 1 4 Q. Okay. 1 5 MH . CRAWFORD: Mr. Henignua, you may 1. 6 want t o look and bo surn if: i. t is the same or not 1 7 the flame. I don't know if they are or not., but l 8 T (IK W IT N R !1 5 ; W e 1 L , l can' t I: nil fro in 1 9 paging through here. 2 0 MR, CRAWFORD: Well ~~ 21 THE WITNESS : It looks the. same. ?. A . Doesn't it look t h e s a m e ? 2 3 Q (My M r , I.a cey ) t t h ink i t i s , b u 1. 1 wan t 2.4 ask y o u 1. o tell, mo ~ 3 l"> A . As far as I can t e 1 J , i t. A fl . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000263 is I. Q Okay. ?. MR . CRAWFORDs You might want to look 3 at the -- maybe the index on the two l:o see It 4 there's any difference. r> Q. (R y Mr. Dacey) Feel free to do that. I 6 -j u a t wan t t o e l. a b J i s h for ns w h e t her or not. w c: ' v e 7 essentially go I: another version o f t he same document 8 t.ha t. appears to have* a different cover on i t. 9 A. Well 1 0 Q . - and looks Jik e t h e y changed the cover l L and t hey changed i t from being P - l l 5 to 0 P - l t 5 . 1 7 A . Th a t.'s h o w far T am on this. 13 Q. Okay. 'Well, take a look to -- at-- at the 1 4 document and page through a couple of them to sen if I. !> they're essentially the same information. 1 6 A . I ' m looking at t.he index and seeing r>o I. 7 difference. In fact, they are the same, the index. 1 8 Q. Okay. Do you want, to flip through the rest, 19 of! the documen t ?. 0 A. It has a different, front page. 7 1 Q. Okay. And we know it's got. an "OP" instead >>.7. of a "P" on it? 7.3 A. Right, which C assume is the 7 4 o r g a nic phosphate diviaio r> . 7`i Q. Okay. And that - you told me what NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000264 I93 L It a ppned was the phosphate division moved from 2 i norgani c to organic? A . The Arm: lors did, yea. 4 Q . In about 1 9 b 2 ? 5 a . Approximately. Eh. could have been a bit 6 cd r 1 i e r . Hut this is a approximate point, j n time. 7 ye:) . R Q A r e you n a t. i s 1 i e d that this las t <1 o r u ni e rt t 9 T 'v hand nil you is just 'in updated version of the J 0 pre v j (uni documents ? l l A . T h a t. 's the way it. Looks to me. 1 7 Q Okay. Now l i A . With the "OP" and a different front page. J 4 c>. N i cj h t . Now, the .last, d o c u m e r> t. t. h a t. w e tb had - - y o u m i.j h t hand me that Last l 1 > doc u me n t 1 A t h a t ' s 3 m hi e d i a t. e .1 y be .1 o w t h a 1 o n e , too, l 7 A . This one? 1 fl Q Yes. 19 A . (Witness romp 1. Lea) 20 Q. The last P - 1 1 b document, we had, 1 r o m t. h e 21 code on It - - and we're t a 1 k i. n g a b o u t. D o e u in e n *; l 7 2 2 7 7 1. It r o u cj h ] 7 b 2. - was printed in Mar c h of 1 9 b 73 , 7. .3 core e c t: ? 2 4 A , Yes . 2S Q Okay. And that went. out. with the P lib NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000265 iI 1 covnr and your ini h id la, corroct? 2. A. Yea. 3 Q. Now, when wo: come to the first, of the OP 4 documents and maybe you can ha not that OP document b back to me. 6 A . (Witness' oompJ ia) That's 0 P. 7 Q fifit me see If E can get our OP documents 8 arranged and J ook at the pages that are t hat, 9 contain the codes and figure out when they were 1 0 i ssued . 1 1 Did you have an employee number at l ?. Monsanto? E moan, did they h a v e employee numbers, 1 3 badgo number, or anything like t.hat? l 4 A . Not th a t E know of. 1 S Q. Okay, Well, I noted t hat i n these OP i a documents, the initials had disappeared in the codes 1 7 that, we see down at the bottom of the documents at l 8 the end, and in place of that there are n u nibc.rs . 1 9 And I gust wondered if -- if maybe those numbers 20 represented the Individual who wa3 responsible for 2 1 review of the document.. 2 2 A. E don't have one with the number. 2 3 Q. Okay. Well, let me show you these. I'm 2.4 trying to g e t these aligned In order here. And let 2. f> me do that. I think T have them in what 3 believe NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000266 I <*5 I to ba thfiir propnv asquiincfi, 2 l.ct me show you, first, Application 1 Data Bulletin OP-l 1.5, Document: 175.) through 1 7 8 2. 4 And on the third page from the end, we find t. he code 5 at the bottom Is 2 - l 9 5 0 3 ~ 5 4 0 2 M- 7l. A mi in eac h of 6 the OP (iocumantu that. I'm going to show you , the 7 number 2-195 i a the beginning number. And r'm j u a t fl wondering if that 2-195 represented a reference to a 9 particular Individual who reviewed the document? 1 0 A. I can't answer that. I don't, know. l l Q. fine. Would you, after you moved or after, 1 2 actually, the PCH division moved to the organic n group, have continued with responsibility for ] 4 reviewing documents like this before they went, out? t S A. I would be in the area and could be given 1 fi t. his to look at.. 1 7 Q. We know from your initials on the preceding IB documents - 1 9 A. That I did, yen. 2 0 Q . -- that you did f o r a o hi e p e r i o d of time? 2 1 A . Yen, Tight.. 22 Q . Now, looking at the code on t. h a t d o c u m e n t., 2 ) i. t has t he same "71'* that's referenced all the 2 4 p r evious bulletins, does it n o t. ? 25 A . Ve s . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000267 i 1 fv I Q. And if wc look at t ho codo, we see a 2 reference there in the numbering system. Maybe you 3 can open up the Last previous lib to the code 4 A. This? b Q. .... and we can compare that, code number. 6 A. That doesn't have any code number. 7 0. T believe it. does, right, there? 0 A . No . 9 Q. I meant t. he code -- i didn't mean exactly l 0 the same code, but it has a - - It has a code number 1. 1 o n t, does it. n o t. ? L 2 A. (No response) 1 3 Q. Yep. It. has your initials and then a code l 4 number, norm o. t ? ] b A. Which I thought was the date. l h Q. Yes, which which you've Indicated you 1 7 think means this was published in March of 19b3? Ifi A. That's how I. Interpret this. 19 Q . Okay. Now, as we compare the code nunibe r 2 0 that appears on the same? page of the document, that 2 1 code in the last. Application Data Bulletin P- 11b, 2 2 Document 1722 through 1742, appears on Page 27 of 2 3 t. he .internal number- of that document., does i t not? 2 4 A. Yes . 2. r. Q. When we come to Page 2 7 of the Application NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000268 L ' / t Data Bulletin OP-l 13, Oociiihrii t 1733 I: hrough 1702, 2 and wc look at. Page 27 of the. interna] numbering of .3 that ilocunant .... 4 A . Okay . fi Q . - we f i ri d another set. of codes 6 A . Codes. 7 Q. - - down at the bottom left? 0 A . Righ t . 9 Q We have a t t. h e end "71 which appears l 0 reference this particular series of bo ok a, does it 1 3 n o t. ? 3 2 A . Right. We have t.hig same 2 M reference that 13 we've previously noted that may relate to the number 1 4 of documents published, correct? IS A. Yes. 1 6 Q. At. the beginning, instead of initials, like l 7 we previously had, which wore your Initials i a A. Yes. 1 9 Q. -- P. G. B . , we have1; a 2-193. And you're, 2 0 not sure whether that references a person - 2 3 A. 1 - T don't, know what. that, is, no. 7.2 Q. And then we have "3-34," which would 7.3 a p p a ren U y in d i c a t e this w a s p u b .1 i she d in M a r c h of 2 4 I. 9 3 4 , would it not ? 2r> A. I would assume so. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000269 * /n I Q. Okay. And if; we come to the next document. 2 Application Data Bulletin 0 P - 1 1 5 , Document. 1794 3 through 1824, wo have the a a mo code numbers except 4 numbers indicat. inq thin was published in February of *5 *55, correct? f. A . It. .looks that, way, right. 7 Q. As we come to the next Application Data 8 Bulletin OP--115, Document. 1825 through 1 856 , we 9 have, again, that same series of numbers except a ] 0 number indicating this was apparently published in l l D e c em b e r, 19 5 5, correct? 1 2 A. Yes. 1 3 Q. And as we come to the next Application Data 1 4 Rill let I n OP 115, Document 185 7 through 1880 , we have 15 a set of code numbers which w mi 1 d appear t. o indicate 16 that this d o c u mn t. was published in November of 17 19b6 , corr ect? l 8 A . r,et me see that J 9 MS . OI.RKKN : W h u t were t h e d ocu m e nt 2 0 numbers two documents back, the one b e f o r: e 1.8 2 5 ? 21 MR . MTTI.K : 17 9 4 t o 1 8 2 4. 2 2 MS . 0 t, K 8 R N s Okay . Thank you. 2 3 A . Yes, t. h is looks - now,, they don't, have t h e 2 4 2M i n here, do t he y ? 2 5 Q. (By Mr. l.a c e y ) Right., which would maybe NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000270 i > 'i 1 indicate a dlftferent qu.i n t i hy , 2 A . It. may indicate a different. <1 u a ri t. i t. y , Here the numbers seem ho be run together. Here they are \ separated. Hut. it. - it appeals to relate. 5 Q. To November, t 9 b 6 ? f> A . I would a s a u in e s o . 7 Q. Then we come ho tho next Application Data 8 Mullet, in 01' 13b, No. 1889 through 19 18; and the code 9 numbers here appear to indicate that the document 1 0 was published in November of 1 9ti7 , correct? 1 l A. Yes. 1 2 Q. Okay. And, again, you may or may not have l.'i reviewed these documents that don't bear your 1 4 initials but. bear the code 2-39b; you're just. not. lb s ure? 1 6 A. I don't, know what. 2 - 3 9 b is. 17 Q. Okay. Would somebody in the group that you 1 8 worked with have been responsible for reviewing t 9 these documents before they we.re published? 20 A. Those were my initials on that, indicates 2 t that I was involved. 2 2 Q. And - - 2 2 A. 2 -19b, I would assume, is someone else. 2 4 Q. okay. And why do you assume 2 19b 2 b indicates someone o t. h e r t h a rt y o u V NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000271 u) I A , I don ' h know who 2195 i. a , 2 Q . Okay. I there some r e a a o n you think j t. ' s 3 definitely not you and it'a somebody elan, or you 4 just, don't know who il. is? 5 A . I don't know. f. () . Okay. Do you recall ever t'ransf ejr ing the. 7 responsibility tor reviewing these documents to 0 Roneone else? 9 A . 1 - officially - - you say. "transfer." l 0 r ? NO . 1 1 Q. Do you toca.11 -l 2 A . T h e y were, reissued by whoever was there. 1 3 Q . yes . W h a t. I'm - - what. 1 ' m asking -- and l 4 maybe f should ask it a different way. What I want, Hi to know is whether or not you recall some point in l 6 time where it was no Longer your job responsibility 1 7 to review these documents before they were reissued? l H A. Now, that runs up to what year3? 1 9 Q. Until you retired. 2 0 A. Until I retired? 2 1 Q. y e 8. Do you recall any point in time where 2 2 you no longer had the responsibility tor reviewing 2 3 t. h e a e documents that, were in t. h e lib series, whether 2 4 it's P-115 or OP-115, after you started reviewing 2 5 then in 19 4 H ? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000272 1 A . '48. Yes, 1: h t a i s correct. There were 2 periods when I was not. any longer a a s o c i a t.e d with .1 the nonfller.tr ir.d l areas. 4 Q. Okay. A n d when did -- when would it be 5 that you no longer would have had any responsibility 6 for documents like these t. h a t. are labeled '' P - .1 1 5 " 7 and "OP 115''? 8 A . I don't, know this - - t. h i s - - this point i n 9 time, I really don't. 1 0 Q . Okay. That's fine. l l A . in othfr words , complete dissociation from 1 2 i H this what you're asking? 11 Q That's w h >i t l ' m trying to find out about. ] 4 A . I really don't know . 15 Q . Okay. Let me direct your attention back to 16 Document 1 6 0 6 through 1634. And this is the 17 document that had your Initials and the code ] 8 indicating it was printed in October of 194R. 19 A. Okay. 20 Q. 1 want, to dared, your attention to Page 2 1 1625 of the numbering system for that document, or 2.2. Page J 9 of the document., where it t. a 1 k s about 21 dermatology .and toxicology. Do you see that topic 24 b e 1 rig discussed there ? 2 5 A. Yes. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000273 / W/ I Q. Where would you have gotten t h o i n f o r m a t L o n 2 t o review and verify t. h e a ccuracy of the i Ti f ornati on 3 1 n that document on derm a t. o L o g y and t o x i. c o 1. o g y ? 4 A . From the medical department. 5 Q, This Ls the Monsanto medical department? 6 A . Correct., yes. 7 Q. And who in the medical department was fl responsible for giving you that information? 9 A. Dr. Kelly. 1 0 Q. Hr. Hamel Kelly? l 1. A. Yes. 1 2 Q. Would you have spoken personally with 13 Dr. R m m o. t tc e I. L y to verify the accuracy of: that } 4 information? lb A. It would be directed to his attention, 16 reviewed by him, and approved by him. That was his 17 responsibility on the dermatology and toxicology. IB That is the responsibility of the medical director. 19 This is 14th copy. 20 Q. Would you send him a draft of the language 2 l that you proposed to include and ask that he review 2 2 it and verify its a ccuracy V 2 3 A . I may not have done th i s, as I indicated. 24 This was s e n l. t o writers w h o put this thin g 26 t o g e t h e r . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000274 / li 1 1 What 1 Ain sayimj is: Thi. a would thnn 2 have to, according to t. lie. procedure, be forwarded to 1 the Radical department for approval of whatever Is 4 written on the dermatology or toxicology. 5 Q . Well, wh.it r ' m trying to find out, you h.nl 6 30 me re a pon h i b i 1 i t. y for actually reviewing that, 7 particular version ofc the Application Oata Hullo tin H P - 1 1 b before .it w a a printed and then distributed t. o 9 customers, correct? 1 0 A . If my initials are on here, T would say. l l yes . I'm not dissociated from i t . Q 1 2 Okay. Anil I guess I'm t. ry i nq to find out 1.1 whether you personally assured yourself that all the 1 4 information in it was checked out. by the appropriate l F5 people before this thing went to press. 1 6 A. In the procedure a/id organization of l 7 handling this, that calls for submitting these to fl1 the medical director' for his approval on what, you're 19 talking about here. 2 0 Q. I understand. 21 A. Okay. 2 2 Q . And my - in y question is slightly 21 d i f: f e r e n t . 2 4 Would you, since you had 2 1 responsibility for that document -- it's got your NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000275 /0 4 .1 1 ini._ti.al3 on it would you personally ensure that: 2 the led! cal dj red o r had , i n fact., reviewed t ha 1 :i Information and approved it: bet: ore you let the 4 document go t. o press? 5 A . I t was not. myself that, let t he document. qo 6 to press , Tt would have gone through the people who 7 handled t.he printing of this. And what was to be 8 printed, was response -- their responsibility to 9 pass to the medical director. t 0 Q. Well, T ' m t ry1n<j to find - - 1 1 A. That's how I interpret this, yea. l 2, Q. E ' m trying to find out who it was who 1 3 finally said, "This document, can go t.o pres a . It's 1 4 all. been verified. E t ' s all accurate , Kverything 1 b is fine." 1 6 A . On the medical t hinq, it would be Dr. 1 7 Kelly. 1 8 Q. Well, was each piece of the document, then, 19 piecemeald out to somu body and nobody had a 20 checklist to make sure at. the end that Mr. Kelly 2 1 or Dr. Kelly la ad reviewed his part and whoever it 2 2 may be was responsible for each part, had reviewed it. 2 ) so they could say, "Well, yes, everybody has 2.4 reviewed it.. We qot all the okays back"? 2`j A. E think you'd have to ask -- address I: his NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000276 /. U l.> I to who the product manager was 2 Q. The product manager? 3 A. I would think. 4 Q. But it wasn't, not you? 5 A . E was not the pi'oduct manager of: the group. <* Q Yeah. My .... Jet. me rephrase my questi o n . 7 E t wasn't you w h o had t h e a responsibility of ensuring that, everybody who was 9 supposed to review each section oC this document i o had, in fact, done so and given their approval 11 before it was sent out? 1 2 A . No . 13 Q Okay. Bid you, during your work in and 1 4 with P O n's in the organic div i aio n and In the 1 F> inorqanic division, ever provide copies of these 16 documents to anybody? 1 7 A . They were nailed out to t.he nistomcra . l H Q . fJn solicited? They were just mailed? 19 A . 1 wouldn't, nay "unsolicited." 1 don't know 2 0 how to interpret it. They were available for 2 1 purchasers, users of rni. 2 2 0.. Okay. They could g e t a copy? 2 3 A . They could get. a copy. This usually 2 4 transpired, E would say, through the sales 2. h d e p a r t. m e n t. . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000277 r Uh 1 Q. 0 e t mn show you the next document that you 2 reviewed. Document 163i> through 1 663 , which 3 according to the code wit.h your initial#, was 4 published in April of 1949 and, again, with regard *5 to the section on dermatology and toxicology, which 6 appears at. Document. No. 165)4, internal Page No. 19, 7 ask it, again, the review of that language to ensure 8 i t. a accuracy wag the res pons i bi 1 i t.y of the medical 9 department and Dr, Emmet Kelly. 1 0 A. That, is the place where it originated; and l t it is the responsibility of the medical department, 1 2 yen . 1 3 (). Okay. Would the name thing be true for 14 Document 1664 through 1692, where the dermatology 1 5> and toxicology information appears on internal Page 16 19, Document No. 1683? 1 7 A. is this a different, one? 1 8 Q. Yes, it's a different one, 19 Would that also have been the 2 0 responsibility 2 1 A. This also would be, yes. 7.7. q . - of: Dr, Emmet Kelly and the medical 7 3 d e p a / t.ient? 24 A . R ight . 2 5> Q. Okay. Would the same thing be true for the NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000278 /. u / I "Dermatology and Toxicology" suction in Document 2 169 3 thx'ough 1 7 2. J , which appears at. internal Page 3 19, Document No. 1712? 4 A. This is "Dermatology and Toxicology." The 5 a n s w r in " y 3 . " 6 Q . So, again, D s . K mmt Kelly and his 7 d e p a r h in u n t would be responsible tor the review and a accuracy o f t hat. information? 9 A. That's where the information came fron. 1 o Q. And he would be responsible for reviewing 1i it and making sure it was accurate before it was 12 i s h e ri , cor red. ? 13 A . I havo to assume I: his. 1.4 Q . l f he didn't, he s h o u 1 d have? 15 A . I'm not a doctor. 1 6 Q ` Well, 3 understand. If he didn't. - l 7 A , I'm not a dermatologist nor an HD. ia Q Certainly. If he d i d n ' t review t. h a t. 19 information before it went out, ho should have? 20 A. I would have to say "yes." 21 Q. It's important that information like that 2 2 be accurate, .isn't, it. 7 2 3 A, Ves . 2.4 Q . Let. me go to Document. 55 through H3 and, 2 5 again, ask you about the "Dermatology and NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000279 . -I H t Tox 1 co Loijy" auction, which rippuars on internal page 2 19 of the document and 74 of the cl o c u ih e n t numbering 3 ser leu and ask again: r :* that "De rmatology and 4 Toxicology" section the rospona i bi J i t.y for review 5 and correctness of Or. R at in t Kelly in t h e medical 6 department? 7 A . Yes. 8 Q. Okay. Let me ask you specifically about 9 Document 1889 through 1918 with regard to the 1 0 "Dermatology and Toxicology" section that appears on l t Page 19 of the Internal numbering of the document 1 2 and page Document Page No. 1 908, whether that 13 "Dermatology and Toxicology" section was the 14 responsibility of the medical depart men t and 15 Dr. Rmmot Kelly as far as review and accuracy went? 16 MR. CRAWFORD: David, are these all in l 7 the time period we're talking about, which would be 18 '48 to -- the Fifties? 19 MR. r.ACRY: Yeah. It would go 2 0 through - - it appears from the codes, 1957, I 2 1 believe 22 MR . CRAWFORD: Ok ay . 21 MR . f, AC R Y : - was the last one. 24 MR . CRAWFORD: Okay. 8 o, the time. 2 5 frame is '48 to '57, roughly. Okay. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000280 / U 'i L - Q. (Hy Mr. f.acey) Would that have -- would 2 that " Derma to 1 oq y and Toxicol oqy" fieri ion have been 3 the responsibility of! Dr. fimmet Kelly a a far as 4 review and accuracy of it. went? f> A. As medical director, ho'3 responsible for (> dermatoloqy and toxicology. 7 Q. And specifically for reviewing and ensuring H the areuracy of that particular' discussion of 9 dermatology and toxicology, correct? 1 0 A. I would say so. l t Q. Okay, Would the same thing bo true for tho 1 2 other vex's ions of book! els P 11b and OP-115 that we 13 have previously discussed today, in each one of 1 4 those? IS A. Yea. 1 6 Q. T n each one of those. Dr. Emme t Ke11y and t 7 the medical department would have been responsible lfl fox re v i e wi nq and de ter mi n i ng t he accuracy of: lhe 19 section on dermatology and toxicology? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay. And you, to the extent you were 2 2 responsible for certain of these books, from the 2 3 codes shown on them, would not have taken upon 2 4 yourself to lot them he published without having 2 b been reviewed by Dr. Km met Kelly, correct.'^ NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000281 Iu I A. To my knowlfidqi; of; their being rcinsufid, 3 this ifl true. I w a n not necesaari)y informed of a 3 reprinting every time. My responsibility when I.' waa 4 associated with the PCfn's in the nonelectrical area ,`j was in preparing this information that is in the 6 bulletin. And 7 Q. Okay. Which information did you prepare 6 specifically and review for accuracy? 9 A. All right. Let's say 1 "dealt with." I 10 myself did not necessarily originate or develop the ] 1 .information. i would have acquired information that l 3 is contained in here; and t pass it along as a 1 3 matter of knowledge and information, not that T l 4 myself developed this. lb (). 1 understand. 16 A. All right. "General Physical Properties," 1 7 here, yes, i would review this and see to it that, it in is as it. should be. 19 Q. Okay. 3 0 A. All right. 7 1 Q. What about, the discussion on adhesiveness; 2 2 would you have had anything to do with the 33 diac u n sio n on a d h e s1v e n e sa? 3.4 A. Vos, f would have reviewed this. And 3 b Jlrodor w ere u s e d . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000282 /I I I Q . What about the discussion on specific 2 voluxi; would you have reviewed that.? 3 A . . Yea, I would have r e v i o w <3 d that. This i s 4 numerical, technical data. 5 Q. What about the discussion on averaqe 6 coefficients of expansion? 7 A . R iqh t . a Q . "CoiTOfi i on , " would you have reviewed that? 9 A. I would have reviewed that and the i o densities. ) i Q "Electrical Properties," would you have i?. rev i. e w e d that? 1 3 A . Yes, I would have reviewed that. l 4 Q "Nondry inq Properties," would you have 1 ?> revie w e d that? 16 A. Yes. 1 7 Q. "Nonflammability"? IB A. Yes . 19 Q. "Solubility"? 2 0 A. Yes. 2) Q, "Specific Heat, and Thermal Conductivity"? 2 2 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. "Stability"? 7.4 A. Yes. 2h Q . " T h e i'm o p 1 a s t. i c i t. y " ? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000283 /. i / 1 A . Yes. 7 Q. "Vapo/i v. a t i o n 1, o s s " V 3 A . Yes. 4 Q. "Vapor Pressure*." ? 5 A . J'. lost a page, but the answer i s " y e s . " f> Q Okay. Now, when we come 7 A . Oh, yes, "Vapor Prosauro. " 8 Q. When we come to the section of the lull ] i t..i n 9 that deals with applications ~ ~ have you co o to 1 0 that, section, yet? l l A . Oh, here it is, yes. ) 2 Q Now, would you have reviewed the various 13 things that stated applications? 14 A . Yes . 1 S 0. So, you would have at least reviewed the l 6 language about adhesive 3? 1 7 A . Yes . ta Q "H loc trlcal Rqulpment"? 1 9 A . Yes . 7 0 Q. "Bxp-ins Lon Medium"? 71 A . Yes . 7 7. Q "Hydraulic Medium" ? 7 3 A . Yes. 2 4 Q . "I.ubrica 1 ion" ? 7 S 3 didn't read all the subhead inga NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000284 /. i .i I u n do r " f l y d r a u I. i. c M n d i u m , " but '?. A. W e11, yes. 3 Q . " L il b r l c a t i. o n " ? 4 A. (No reaponae) S Q. t s that - 6 A. Yes. 7 (> . "Gasket and Packing "Gaskets and 0 Packing Materia La"? 9 A . Yea. 1 0 Q . Hu t. when we get. down t.o "Hernratology and l 1. Toxicology," you would not have reviewed that; la i2 t. h a l c o i t e c t. ? 1 3 A. When it gets down to "Dermatology and l 4 Toxicology," i t is not my creation - - 1 ` Q. I understand. 16 A. - to bog in with. 1 7 Q. 1 understand. What I'm - - Ifl A . This would be subject to revlewal and } 9 approval by the medical department 20 Q. Okay. The point I'm trying -- 2 J A . - - not. myself. 2 2 Q. Right. The point I'm trying to get to is: 2 3 Kverythi nq up to that page of this document, would 2 4 have been subject, to your rev i n w? 2S A. Yes. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000285 /i4 ,1 i - Q. Thai; one section would not have been 2. subject to your review and a p p r o v a 1 , corre c t. y .3 A. Officially this L h correct. 4 Q. Well, what about unofficially? b A . Correct. 6 Q. It w a s n ' t. your responsibility, either? 7 A . It wasn't. I say it is the responsibility a of the medical department.. 9 Q. Okay. Now, let's go on, after we got past l 0 "Dermatology and Toxicology" -- l t A . Yes . 1 7 c>. -- there, are, then, portions of the 1.1 bulletin that deal with suggested uses for Aroclors? 1 4 A . Yes . 1 !> Q . Would you have reviewed these various I fc amjijestnd uses? ) 7 A . Yes, I would. 1 a Q Okay. And there's a whole list of uses 19 that are suggested ? 20 A . Yes . 7 1 Q. And then there is a listing of o t h e r 2 7 Literature at the very end of the bulletin that one 23 c an q e t. from Monsanto on specific uses. 2 4 You still need to get think it's 2 b yet a page further- in maybe:. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000286 - 1 > 1 A . The next', p.wje , 2 Oh , this. .3 Q. There ' a a section of other l i to ra I. u re th.it 4 one could order, l q u e a s , correct.? 5 A . Ifis , 6 Q . And wouldyou havereviewed that? 7 A - Yes. fl Q . So, theonly section ofthis entire booklet 9 that you would not very view would be " Derma to 1 ogy 1 0 and Toxi col otjy , " correct? l l A . C'm not responsible for this, y os - - 1 2 Q. Hut you are .... l 1 A. - that's correct. 1 4 Q . nut you are res pons i tile for everything lri else ? 1 6 A. Yes. 1 7 Q. Okay. And that, would be true with regard l 8 to each version - 19 . A. This - 2 0 Q. -- of these documents? 21 A. Thin was my work. You say 2 2 "responsibility.'' This was my activity. 2 3 t> . Okay. That's fine. It's .... we're talk i nq 2 4 about the same thing, aren't we? 2 ? A . Might.. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000287 / i t. 1 -Q . Okay , Now, let me see if we can s w itch 10 2 another group of documents t.h a t. deal with P C H ' s ; and 3 t h y have a different. 3 e r i e h or at L e a s t a different 4 flat of covers on them. I'm not sure that they're a 8 different series of documents, or the Information 6 as. 7 Hut Jet. me show you a Document. 1919 8 through 1966 and ask If you've had a chance to look 9 at that document, since yesterday afternoon? I 0 A. I've seen this yesterday afternoon, ] J j . Now, this document has much of the same t 2 Information on PCH'a that the bulletins known as ] 3 "P-1 lb" or "OP--! IS" had; is that correct.? 1. 4 A. This Is correct, has much of the same 1 r> 5 nformation. 1 6 Q. Do you know whether- or not. that document l 7 was one that was generated earlier than the P and ] B 0 p 1 1 b series or if this is a subsequent document, 19 that replaced those earlier ones? 2 0 A, (No response) 2 l Q. And C note for one example - 2 2 A . I'm look) nq at. the information in here, 2 3 r t. ' a essentially derived from these earlier ones, I 2 4 would say. Now - 2 8 Q. yeah, This appears to be a later - - NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000288 2) / t A . E t appears l; h a 1; way to mo , yes. 2 Q . Okay. There's several th i n q h that, would 3 seen to Indicate t h. 11 . If you Look a t - - iowiird the 4 end , where it gives the a d d ress for Monsanto, i L. has 55 a two d ig i. t zonfi i n t h e Adi l L ng address . 6 Do you find that? 7 A . t: . Iiouis 6 6? B Q. Yeah. 9 A. 1 see that. now. Yes. Yes. This is out on l 0 Lindbergh Ron lovard, yns . 1 1 Q. The -- the development of these postal 12 zones is something that, used to have, a long time 13 aqo - 1 4 A. Two numbers, and now they're five, is it, 15 or more. 16 Q. Yeah ., Hut. we're in t. h e situation where 17 at least have got two numbers in a zone at this 1 fl point. 19 Can you t. c i .1 from review! n cj t. hat a b o u t 2 0 what date you think that document was created? 21 THR WITNKSEl: Did you write that 2 2 down ? 2 3 MR. CRAWFORD : l don't - 1 don't 2 4 t h i. n k s o . 2 5. THR WlTNKSKf I don't, think we did. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000289 e. 1 u I" MR. CRA W F 0 R D: That's not one you had 2 a hand in wri t.i nq, was it? 3 T H R WfTNFSfl: No. 4 MR. CRAWFORDi Okay. Well -- here, 5 T ' l l taka a took a t it. 6 if you don't, know, i ut tell h i pi you 7 don't know. fl A . I don't know. 9 Q. (By Mr. f.acey) This is not a document that 1 0 you ever reviewed any portion of? l I. A . Not to my knowiodijo, no. ] 2 Q . Okay. 1 3 A. Hut. it is the same information, by and t 4 lanjti, plus some other -- perhaps some additional 1 5 information. If. Q. And all you can t e 1 i us is that, it appears 17 to be subsequent to the P l I. 5 - 1 fl A . Vf!8 . 19 Q. -- OP-l15 series? 20 A. This T would say "yes," 21 MR. CRAWFORD: David, on Paqo 33, 2 2 there's a footnote at. the bottom referencing some of 23 the material that has a date of 1953. Ho, T guess 24 you could assume it must, be after that; but. 1 25 that's a 1. I r s ee. . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000290 X J 'I L Q. (Hy Mr, l,-u'.fly) And if i. t comes eM.er t h o P 2 and OP aeries, then that, would put it after about. 1 195 7 because that's the last OP series doc uine n t we 4 found, correct.? 5 MU. CRAWFORDt Well , if you know. 6 A. C would - without being -- ['m not sure ot 7 the date of this. 1 didn't put it out, hut .... 1 8 neither can confirm nor reject this. 9 . (By Mr. I . a c e y ) Who would have been l 0 responsible within Monsanto Cor putting out the } 1 doaim e n t that in numbered 1919 t h rough 1 966? l 2 A. f,et me see it again. 1 3 Q. Certainly. 1 4 A . T h p. person responsible, 1 w o u 1 d say, i a the IK product: manager. 1 6 Q. What - 1 7 A. That's the ultimate person ro sponsi b1e. 10 y. f,e h mo -- let me direct your attention to 1 9 the pages that have general physical properties of 20 the Aroclor compounds listed at the first of the 2 J document. 2 2 A. This? 2 3 0 Yes . .1 u s t. n o . As vow flip in, there's 2 4 a o h a r t a bou t three o r four pages in, similar to the 2r> one you previously looked at. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000291 - / u 1 Keep on going. You'll Find the cturt 2 of -- got. through l he table of contents there. 3 A . Oh, t h i ;3 4 Q . Yes. Now, we're talking - - that's the 5 chart that shows the general physical properties of. 6 the some of t he Aroclor cohipounda , correct? 7 A . As these earlier book Lots do, right. 8 Q. Yeah, very similar to the earlier booklets? 9 A . It is. J 0 Q. Yes. l l A . Can't that it:? 1 2 Q , ( t h i n k it is. And my question .is t. h i a i 13 You indicated that you would ha v e reviewed the 1 4 information on the charts in the earlier booklet.a to 15 confirm its a c c; u r a r. y , correct? 16 A. Yes. 1 7 Q. Now, who would have reviewed the 10 information on the chart here to ensure its J 9 accuracy? 20 A . I do not. know, 1 1.o 1 d you that. t.he 21 responsibility o rga n i / a t i.on w i s e would bn the product 2 7. manager. Now, there are people under him that would 7.3 have this assignment, r suppose; but he - he's the 24 person ultimately responsible. 2 5 Q . What E ' m tiryimj to find out is whether you NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000292 2l \ I know who tiler or not: you, in fact, had the 2. re* pon a i b i 1 i t. y or not for reviewing that chart for 3 that particular publication? 4 A . No . b Q . You know t h a t. you did not? 6 A , V did not, n o. 7 Q. How do you 8 A . r -9 Q. Pardon me. How do you know you did not? l 0 A . I didn't wriho this. 1 1 Q. And you know did you not review it? l 2 A. No, I did not review this. 1 3 Q. Okay. 1 4 A . But., as you can a e e, much of the 18 Information came from our earlier literature. 1 6 Q . Okay. Would the name thing be true for I 7 Document 84 t h r o u g h 131; that is, that you didn't 1 8 write it but that much of the information contained 19 in it came from the earlier Literature that you were 2 0 responsible for reviewing? 2 l A. This Looks like the same thing I just 2 2 looked at. 2.3 0 . It appears to bo h o t. o hi e . 2.4 A . ): can't see a difference -- anything 2.8 d i f f erent. , NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000293 I " Q Okay. An it, so, l. he same thing would be 2 t.ruo i You did not. personally review any of the 3 information in that document, but it does appear 4 that much of the information in there came f r o nt 5 oar tier documents that you did review and verify? 6 A. Yes. Yes. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A . This is an - an enlargement., a later 9 edition. 1 0 0. Okay. Let me direct your attention to l 1. another aeries of documents; and lot me hand you 1 2 Document. 234 7 through 237 7 and ask you to take a 13 Look at; that document, which is labeled "Monsanto J 4 A a k e r a .1 Inspection and Maintenance Guide." i r> Are you familial- with that document? i6 A . Yes. Yes. l 7 Q, Did you have anythin g to do with that 18 document? 19 A. Yea. 2.0 Q. What, did you have to do with that document? 2 l A. I accumulated the information a n d the 22 data. I worked on the accumulation of this 2 1 information and da ta and making rough drafts of this 2 4 information that is contained here in this 2*5 litorature. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000294 ). 2 2 I <2 . So, you wfirn actually the person who 2 started puttinq together what became that booklet, :i that you have? 4 A . This is r i q ht, yes. 5 Q. Okay. About when it i. <1 you actually start 6 the process of preparing that document that's called 7 an "As koraL Inspection and Ma intenance Guide"? 8 A . It. was sometime i n the period of the early 9 t o m i il I960 ' a . 1 0 0 . Okay . D o e a t h a +. document ha v e a code on it 1 l a t the b a c k that will help you identify about when 1 2 i t. was published 1 3 (Discussion off the Record) l 4 THE VLDROGRAPHER: We're about to go i off the record. The time is 10:43 a.m. 16 (Discussion off the Record) 1 7 THF VIDROGRAPHER: We are now hack on 18 the record. The time is 11:08 a.m. 19 Q. (By Mr. h acc.y) Mr. He ni cjnu s , before wo 20 took the break to Let Mr. Crawford make some phone 2 1 calls and just take our morning break, you were 2 2 looking at that inspection and maintenance guide -ami 2 3 you were telling me that you prepared it sometime in 2 4 the l 9 6 0 ' ? 2 b A. Yea. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000295 . ^ -i I Q AIL right. Was there any particular riMann 2 why you pi'apare.d t. ha t. d o c u m ent.? A. Yea. 4 Q. Why was that? l'i A. Wfill, it states i t a purpose in the 6 introduction. It. a a y a why it. was prepared. V May C read it? 8 Q. Certainly. 9 A . "This manual describes the op e r a tiny 1 0 characteristics of transformer Askeral liquid l 1 insulation and how it differs from mineral oil." 1. 2 Q. 8o 1 1 A. "The informal.ion is based on facts gathered l 4 by Monsanto over 10 years as producer of Askeral 1 f plus knowledqe gained from the experience of L<5 transformer manufacturers and users. t is a manual 1 7 that deals with the difference of the 18 characteristics of Liquid Askeral .is versus mineral 19 oil." 2 0 Q. What, was this to be used for? To whom 2 l would this be provided, for example? 2 2 A . This would be provided to manu f act.urer a of 21 Ask era l transformers and also provided to users of 2 4 A s k e r a J transf orniorB . 2*5 Q. Now, i. n that Introduction there was a NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000296 /. / 1 ref!rt*ncti to Mon a .in to having produced Askeral. for 2 over 30 years? 3 A, Yeah. 4 Q . Does that 3 0 - y a r period run fro m when 55 Monsanto acquired the Swann C h o m i. c a l Comp .i ny or b.irk 6 from 1930, '31, '32, when G.P. started using PCR ' s 7 for transformer dielectric fluids? 8 A . I'm not sure. It. says, " 11 a a e d on facts 9 (j a the red by Monsanto over 30 years." I .... I can't 1 0 define it any closer than that. l l Q. You don't recall what 30-year period you 1 2 were referring to when you wrote that? i :j A . No, t do not. 1 4 Q. Okay. J S A. This was a rough - - in other words, it's l 6 been used a long time. 1 7 Q. Okay. 1 8 A . It's been in use a 1ong time. 19 Q. And .... and, if I understood your testimony 20 correctly, PCH ' s started being used in transformers 2 1 in the early 1930's? 2 2 A. Yes . 2 3 q, So, if y o v) were talk .i n<) about, a 30-year 2 4 period, this would have to be written at least no 2 f> earlier- than the early 1960's, correct? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. . WATER PCB-SD0000000297 I - A. Yo3, th lh is rorrfict, 2 Q. Arid that'a when you think you wrote it., was 3 In the 1960 s? 4 A. In the 196 0 ' n . 5 Q . Okay. 6 A. Yen, 7 Q. Now, if you would, t u r n to the page of that, 8 document that talks about direct Lons for handling. 9 I think it's pretty close to the front of it there, l 0 not far after the introduction, maybe three or four 1 1 pages later. Right there, J think .... where it l 2 t a 1. k s - - 1 3 A. Yes, J 4 Q . ..... about, directions for handling? 15 A. For handling. 16 Q. And under that, there in a discussion of 17 "use ordinary personal precautions," correct? 18 A . Right. 1 9 Q. Where did you get the information that went 2 0 into that section on ordinary personal precautions? 2J A. This was obtained again, referring to 2 2 the introduction, this information was gathered," as 7.3 the introduction says, by Monsanto based on t h e 2 4 experience of 30 years, of our experience and the 2`i experience of. t r a n s f o r m e r manufacturers . In t. h e NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000298 22 7 1 introduction, some of the transformer the - the 2 main transformer manufacturers are listed here; for .1 instance, General Kler.l-.ru; Company, Nos t L nghouu o , 4 Allis-Chalmers. Others could be listed - listed. 5 To answer your question, this was ft derived from t. he experience of 30 years satisfactory 7 use in the industry. 8 Q . Well, for example, what I'm trying t. o find 9 out is whether or not you went to somebody in the 1 0 medical department, at. Monsanto t.o get the l l information that's contained here or whether you got 1 2 that. just, from your own personal knowledge. l .1 A. Not from my own personal knowledge. 1 4 Q. Okay. 1 b A. This came from the knowledge that was l 6 gathered from 10 years satisfactory use of Askeral. 1 7 Q. Okay. My question is - - l 8 A. And - - oh, excuse mo. 19 Q. My g nest ion is: To whom did you go to get. 20 tho Information about that 10 -year history of; 2 1 handling Askeral? 2 2 A. This came from the people here in the 2 2 industry manufacturing and using Askeral 2 4 tra n a formers. 2 8 Q. Well, let me --- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000299 8 I A . And - okay. 2 Q. Go ahead. I'm sorry, 1 didn't. - i didn't, 3 moan to Interrupt you. c thought you wore through, 4 but go ahead. 5 A . And - you - - you asked about, my 6 knowledge. There was no knowledge, as Car as I'm 7 concerned no knowledge, of toxic or other ill 8 fitter ts . So, I share this view. I share this view. 9 Q Okay. Well, 1 et me go back ; and let's talk 10 a b o u h th 'is document. And, in tact. why don't we 1 J identify some other versions of it because 1 think 12 t h o y ' r o all essentially the same. And lot's got 1 3 that done, maybe, before we. talk about t.he details. 14 A. Okay, 1 !i {) . Let me also show you Documents 2 37 8 through 16 2410, also la bo Led "Monsanto As kora 1 Inspection and 1 7 Maintenance Guide." 10 A. Okay. 1 9 Q. Document 2299 through 2331, also labeled 20 "Monsanto inkers l Inspection and Maintenance Guide"? 21 A. Yes. 2 2 Q . Docume u t. 2 12 through 24 0 , also 1 abe 1 ed 2 1 "Monsanto Askeral Inspection and Maintenance Guide;" 2 4 and Document. 180 through 211, also labeled "Monsanto 2 5 Askarel inspection and Maintenance Guide" but with NELLMCCALLUIVI& ASSOCIATES, INC. . WATER PCB-SD0000000300 2 A* L the name A L l In -Cha lnirn down at the bottom. 2 A. Oh, all r i q h t. . 3 Q. Now, what E want to a a k you La who I: her all 4 those docuientn are basically copies of the a a hi e 8 doc. n ine. n L -- 6 A. Right. 7 () . - containing the s a m a information V 8 A . R ight . Q. Now, Jet. me ask you, with regard to the one 10 that's got Allis -Chalmers written on it, why is 1 1 Allis- Cilia ] mora name down there on the bottom of that I. 2 document that begins Page 180? 1 3 A . A .1 1 i a - C! h a A m e r s made A n k e r a 3 transforsers , L 4 was one of the people making Askera.I transformers. 1 *i A 1Jis-Cha3mers requested this literature for to L 6 tj s o anil our advertising - - I say "advertising" - 1 7 oui' literature department - I think that's a more 18 correct nomenclature in these casos than saying 19 "advertising" .... our literature d e p a r i. m e n t. agreed to ?.0 print some of these with their name on it -- 2 1 Q. Okay . 2 2 A . - a it they w o u 1 d have far anyone else. 2 3 Q Okay . 2A A . T h a 1, occasions t. h i a . 2*i Q . I! h was still the d o o u m n n t that you had NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000301 n 1 prepared at Mona .into? / \w 2 A . Yea. Now, 1 lierp 1 n an A 1 1 i a - Cha J iner a person 3 1.1 a tod hero In the introduction as having 4 participated in the. assembly and so forth of this 5 information. 6 Monsanto, realise, does not -- did n ot 7 make, design, manufacture -- that is, make, teat, H install, or use transformers. We made the fluid. 9 Q . R l cj h t . 1 0 A. This .is why the subject is "Askeral l 1. r, ig 11 id . " T I: is not subjected "Aakeral ) 2 Transf orniera , " it is -- the subject, is "Transformer 13 Askeral r. iquid." Wd'vu talking about the liquid. 1 4 Q.Certainly. J !> A. Now, theae people who are listed here, they I fi are in that category of being representatives of 1 7 manufacturers and marketers, .installers, of the 18 equipment. 1 9 Q. The document, is, however, a 2 0 Monsanto-prepared document with information, in 2 1 part, you gained from others? 2 2 A. dorrec t. 2 3 q . Okay. Now, f want to f o c. u a your a 1.1. e ntin n 2 4 back on the paragraph that deals with ordinary ?.*; personal preeautionfl. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000302 X 1) 1. A . All r l g h t; . 2 Q. Again, i u a t. so we're clear, when we're .3 talking about AskoiaL, we're talking about iJCR ' 3 4 that M o n a a n t. o h a d the trade name of Aroclor for, S corrfich ? 6 A . Yea. 7 0. And are also just PCH'n, correct? 8 A . (No rftiiponae) 9 Q. They're polychlorinated biphenyls, right? l 0 A. Not necessarily In all cases here, 1 3 Q, la there any Aakeral that does not contain 12 PCR'h? 1 3 A. Well, if you go through the literature t 4 and -- and look at the formulas, there were blends 3 h of PCH's with other things. l 6 Q, Yes. Hut i.3 there any Aukeral that does 1 7 n o t. contain PCH's? t 8 A . Oh, put that way, correct. 1 9 Q. Okay. There are different, formulas for- 20 blending - 2 3 A. Correct. 2 2 Q. --- PCH'n to meet the specifications of 2 3 General. F. Iec t r ic or Wea t i nghous o or A l l i. s Cha l me r s 24 or whoever? 2 tS A. This i. a right. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000303 2 I/ 1 Q . Rut; t h e y a I. L c. o n t ,i in P C R ' 3 ? 2 A . Right. 3 0 . . Or w h a l Mon s a n t. o cii) ] p.d "Arodo r s " ? 4 A . Right. f> 0,. Okay. Now, talking about, those ordinary 6 personal precautions, we have that same - this same 7 information in each one of these document n we've 8 -just looked at - 9 A . Yes. l 0 Q . - - each version of: them. } J Now, did you acquire information on t 2 ordinary personal precautions from talking wLth 1 3 General Hleclric and We y I. j nq h oil s e and l 4 Allis- C. ha I * o r s V 1 8 A . Not exclusively. 1.6 Q. Whore else did you acquires information on 1 7 t. h a l. 7 18 A . Monsanto, 19 Q. And from wI\odi at. Monsanto did you acquire 2 0 such information? 21 A . Our plant people, as s up po r t e d by (he 2 2 industrial hygiene people'. 2 3 Q. Are they in - the indusfxial hygiene 2 4 people in 1:he> medical department? 2 8 A. Yew. They're with Dr. Kelly. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000304 l " Q. So -- 2 A . He was not. the only one there. 3 Q. Okay. So, you would 4 A . This is a consensus - r> Q . Okay . 6 A . - - in other words. 7 Q Okay. a A , Tt is a consensus, in-house an out-house. 9 Q Okay. These a r e n o t just your thoughts? 1 0 A . That is riqht. 11 Q . They i ? A . I acquired these thoughts. I was in an n l ike you a ro. 1 4 Q And these thoughts, then, include the 15 thoughts of Monsanto's modi cal department? if. A . These thoughts were certainly checked with 1 7 the mod Leal department at some period in time. 1 8 Q And they approved what, you said? 19 A . They must have - - the --- the procedure was. 7 0 f. ro* a p r o d u c t. group, ns we went, through before. 2 l whan l i t ora turn like t hi. a is composed and then, i n 27 the - - the writing department, I think we called 2 3 them rather than advertising, they would set up the 24 format. . 2 b Now, in-house at Monsanto, this is to NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000305 /: j -I t bo paastid onto the nindir.a l department. 2 Q. Okav 3 A . So, I assume that it. was done s a . 4 Q. Okay. So, my - my apftc i. Pic qufistlon is: fi Wan t. It j s directed for review to the medical 6 dupa r 1. aunt? 7 And your answer ia you think no. 8 A . C 11\ l nk no . 9 Q . Okay. Now, did you also have this l 0 information on personal precautions reviewed by the 1 1 plant, managers at. the plants that, made PCB'a? l 2 A. Not directly, no. No. 1 3 Q. Did you do it. indirectly? l 4 A. I would -- T would say, really, no, other 1 ti t. h a n - to my knowledqe - - this is my personal 16 knowledge was not aware of anything that would 1 7 be contrary to this. 1 8 Q. Okay. But. the actual review process, then, 19 at Monsanto involved what you knew and what the 3 0 medical department, knew? 3 1 A. Correct. 3 3 Q. And nobody else, correct.? 3.3 A. That is the answer to your question. 3 4 Q. Okay. Now, I note in t.h i s section on 3.6 ordinary personal precautions you state that AskeraL NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000306 / -> *J I has bfip.n made , handled , .and ti s e d fl o r over .'I 0 y,j r 3 2 without, cauai nq toxic or other iJi effects. f r that 1 what your statement was? 4 A . That's what, it says. 5 Q . And yo 11 be l love that to bo true? 6 A . As far as i know. 7 Q. And would you consider anybody who might 8 qet sick enough to seek medical attention having had 9 a toxic or i l 1. <j f: I: ect? 1 0 A. Would what.? 1 1 Q. if somebody who had made, handled, or used l 2 As kora l had a sufficient medical problem to seek i :i medical attention, would you consider that a toxic L 4 or ill effect? i r> A . Yes, 1 would consider t.ha t something to 16 call and go see the medical department. 1.7 Q . So, you -- t 8 A. Yes. 1 9 Q . You understood t he statement, here t o inean 2 0 that nobody who had made, handled, or used Askeral. 21 had ever gotten sick enough to need medical 2 2 attention, correct;? 23 A . R'iseril i.iJ ly , yes. 2 4 q . 0k.1 y . And certainly not to have died from 2 f> i t? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000307 / .3 o l A. That. ' 3 right. 2 Q. Okay Now, the next, sentence says, ";( t can 3 be handled" -- and "It," you're talking about the 4 PC -i A . Askfit'd l . 6 Q . A h k e r a 1 , the material c o n t. a i n i n q PCH 1 s , 7 r.orroc t ? a A . Right.. 9 Q. "It. can be handled wi th only Minor l 0 procau t i o ns "? i ] A. Yes. J 2 Q. What, did you consider to be minor l 3 prucaut. Ions? 1 4 A. What. T would consider here, to be minor l `3 precautions is sensible cleanliness and avoidance of ] 6 long-term exposure to the skin or t. o the vapors; and 17 if it were to come in contact with the skin, to wash l a the akin. That is how 1 interpret t. hia. 19 What l am saying is: Our people, to 2 0 my knowledge, did not wear complete rubberized 2 1 suits. They wore ordinary cl. o the 3 in our plants. 2 2 And - 2 3 Q. No special clothing? 2 4 A. No special clothing. 2 a However-, if accidentally it. was NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000308 / .) / I s p L I. l ed, they would have removed their clothing 2 instead of continuing to wear the clothing with t. h c 3 Aflkora1 spilled over themselves. 4 Q . Okay , And you would h a v .... 8 A . They would have washed themselves f. Q . Okay. You cons 1 d e r .... 7 A. They did not wear special glove3 and ao 8 f or t.h . 9 Q . They didn't have any special gear for their l 0 hands or their feet or their heads or anything like 1 1 t. hat? J2 A . No special gear, no helmets well , hard l 3 h a I. s t: o r mechanical .... no space-age suits. 1 4 c>. 0 k a y . l 8 A . All right. 1 6 Q. Well, did they have space-age suits back 17 t. h e n ? 1 H A . (No response) 19 Q That's a serious question. mean. 1` h v e 2 0 seen -- you know, in recent, years 1 have seen on TV 2 l wo -- wo had a b i. g chom i c a 1 sp ill up h e r e in Hast 2 2 Tnxaa not t. o o 1 o n g ago. where a train ran o f f the 2 3 I. racks . And on TV you c ou lii see people out there 2 4 with thes e w hi te suits. all covered up. 2 8 Did they have stuff like that back NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000309 / .1 H I when yo,j1 were writing this? 2 A. I would say not to the typo that, they have* 3 now. They would - ~ they had protoo Live clothing on 4 a severe situation. 5 () . Okay. And it was your1 understand i ikj that 6 the way Monsanto handled PCR ' a in their plants, they 7 didn't have any special protective gear for their 9 heads, their hands, their Eeet, or anything like 9 t. hat? 1 0 A. This is correct. l l Q . And you wouldn't consider s p o clal 1 2 protective gear for the head, the hands, the feet, 13 and stuff Like t h a t minor precautions, would you? 1 4 A. No, Those are unusual precautions. lr> Q, Okay. Now, you go on to say, "If it's 1 6 accidentally spilled on the hands no serious skin l 7 irritation will occur"; is that correct? i a A . T h a t.'s - - that's what it says?. L 9 Q. Where did you get that information? ?.Q A . This information came from the consensus of 21 the people in the industry and from the experience 22 in Monsanto's plant. - plants.I w o u .1 d include, 2. 3 t h i s . ?. 4 q . Now, where did you get. the information on 7.9 I. he experience in Monsanto's plan t h ? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000310 2 :> 4 1 A. I would nuv this wan run through the 2 industrial hygiene people, again, in I. he medical 3 department. 4 Q Medical department? `5 A . Ifna , 6 Q Y o u q o o n to say t. hat. - - t. h a t, "If Jiskerai 7 is spilled on the hands, prolonged contact may lead 8 to drying and chapping of the akin"? ') A . This is right. 10 Q- That's kind c>f like if you're out. in the l 1 winter w n d and your skin dries out? 1 2 A . It's like if you have your hand in paint l 3 1, h i n n e r , is what it. says here. 1 4 Q Okay. i r> A . It. removes the oils from the akin. 16 Q . Was there any problem that you suggested 1 7 resulting from prolonged contact, with the skin, 10 other than drying and chapping? 19 A . Not t o my knowledge. 2 0 Q. So, the one reason you'd want to --21 A . However, I t hin k if you'll go into this 2 2 further, it says if avoid prolonged contact with 2 3 t. h e sik i n 2 4 Q My question is: T h e only thing t hat y o u 2 75 indicated might occur .is a result of prolonged NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000311 1u 1 conflict was drying and c h a p p L n q of the skin? 2 A. No. No. 3 Q. What. -- where e 1 s e do you indicate there's 4 any other problem that can result from prolonged 8 contact, wi t. h i. he .ik i n ? 6 A . You're talking to me now. 7 Q . Yea . 8 A . Right. I am not a dermatologist nor an 9 MO . 1 0 Q Yeah . 1 1 A I have gone as far in my thinking on this, 12 not being a dermatologist or medical person,, as I 1 3 can go. Now, I don't know you're asking me, t 4 "What else?" This is a medical question. 1 8 Q. That's a different. - - I'm sorry. Maybe I I 6 didn't ask my question well. 1 7 I'm t.ry i nq to find out what else you 18 told people in this document might result from 19 prolonged contact of PC'B's with the skin, other than 2 0 drying or chapping? 21 A . T don ' t t. h 2 2 Q. Ok ay . 2 3 A . :i n t. h i h 2 4 Q . OOkkaayy.. S8oo, if a person read what you wrote, 2`> they would be reasonable i n concluding t.hal the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000312 24 1 I red m on you wanted I; o avoid prolonged contact with 2 the skin was to keep it from chapping and drying, 3 correct? 4 A. I don't agree with that fully, 5 0.. Okay . 6 A. T h a t1 a part of it. 7 Q. What else would they conclude would result B from prolonged contact, with the skin? 9 A. I don't know what they would conclude. 1 0 Neither- do 1 know what sight conclude. l l What i. s going to be said here is, 1 2 "Avoid long-term exposure"; and what is definitely 1 3 said, " L f spilled, wash it off" "wash with soap ) 4 and water." i r> 1 cannot, con jecture what might, happen. 16 Q. Well, E -- that's - 1 7 A. I don't, know. I don't know what, you're 18 asking for. T don't - 19 Q. What what 1 ' m trying t.o find out - 2 0 A. This is not a medical ~ this is not a 21 medical dissertation. 2 2 Q . Well - 2 3 A. This is a consensus from people handling 2 4 A s k e r a l in the transformer manufacturing area and in 2. fi our plants, t. heir experience. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000313 , i, 1 Now, r. ha vo no know), edge bevond what 2 I've said here. Now, if iiomeone else does have 3 knowledge, I don't have i. t . 4 Q. Okay. b A . W o vi ] d o \i r m e d 1 c a 1 people have i 1 ? t don't 6 know. You'd have to ask thorn. 7 Q. Well, .lot me ask you this. :f'm iust t. Tying 8 to f i nd out what you've said and what you think 9 people should have understood from it, because - ~ l 0 A. What l think people 3houl.d understand from 1 1 what I said then, now, and at any time, this is not l 2 soda pop. This material. It Is said, "Avoid 1 3 prolonged contact, with the skin. If there is skin l 4 contact, wash In an ordinary way with soap and 1 S water, No special washings are required." 16 Ami it also somewhere - - C'm - - j; 1 7 can't read all of this at once - somewhere it says, Ifl "Avoid breathing the fumes and the vapors." 19 Now, my premise here is: If someone 2 0 adheres to this, they're going to bo all right. 21 Q. Well, what, was "prolonged contact"? if a 2 2 person contacted it during a shift when ho was 2 3 working, would it. be appropriate for him to wash 7 4 carefully at the conclusion of his shift? 3 ?> A. If he had A ak e r a 1 on his skin, he should NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000314 24 J l wash at the time - - immediately after It - 2. Q. He a hou1d waah .1 \. -- in my opinion. 4 Q. -- immediately? 5 A . 1 would say so. 6 Q Okay . 7 A . Then - - and thin is not. proJ onged . An fl eight hour exposure is prolonged exposure. 9 U Did you say in here t.o wash immediately? l 0 A . tt says It - - if it contacts the skin, wash ] 1 it.. Ha s h i t -- - ' ] 2 Q - Doe a n't say to do it. immediately, does it? l1 A . Weil, I don't know. Tt may say if they ] 4 wa.ih t h e akin - in case of contact. --- in case of l l5 contact. wash off the akin; in case of contact -- ] 6 Q . Yeah. l 7 A . - - wash it off. lfl Q And by that., you meant, to say, "In case of L 9 contact, Immediately wash off the skin"? 20 MR. CRAWFORD; Wei], he said what he 2 t said . 2 2 A . i - - t. it e s e a r e t. h e words I said. 2 3 Q. (Dy Mr. f.acey) Well, what T'm trying to 2 4 find out. ia: Do you read that -2`S A . What C say here, "Do not have prolonged NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000315 X44 I exposure . E f conf.arl;, wash L t off , " 2 Q . And y ovi think t. ha t. should be don?1 .1 lamed lately, correct? 4 A . Bnaential ly .... I ' a not. agreeing with w h a t. '5 you indicated, that you go around night hours with 6 it on during the work day. 7 Q. Well, t hat's what I'm trying to Sind out. a A. Oh, you better believe this is my intent. 9 Q. Lt was your intent that they immediately 1 0 waa h ? 1J A. If one contacts it -- if this happens, wash i?. it of l: . 1 3 Q . Immediately? 1. 4 A. E wo viId -- I wouLd say that is - this is lf> what I myself would do. 16 Q. Okay. And as far as clothing, was it your 1 7 intention t hat in the event FCH ' a got on c.lothinq l 8 that they should iamediateiy I'emove that clothing 19 and change into fresh clothing? 20 A. Weil, let me read this. Where is this -- 21 Q. It's the same 22 A . oh, all r i g h t . "Wash off the skin with 2 3 soap and water." It. says "remove." 24 Q. yes. And my guest Ion 2 i' A, Now, yes. T agree with you,immediately. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000316 F. 1 b I Q. Immediately in what you meant? 2 A. Lot me say promptly, without undue delay, 3 reasonable promptness. 4 Q. Which doesn't, ne.an at. the end of a shift. if 5 3omaona -- 6 A . Oh, t. h i s is correct.. 7 Q. Okay. Okay. fl A. This is absolutely correct.. 9 Q. Okay. And that's what you intended to 1 0 convey when you wrote these words? l l A . This i. a right. 1 2 Q- Okay. 13 A. Without. yes, this is absolutely the -- l 4 t ho intent. 15) Now, do you want to read about t. he 16 eye? 17 Q. If you want. to. I don't, have any questions IB about It; but if you want to go Into it, well, 19 fine. 20 A . Well, if j t qetfi in the eye, it. is going to 21 be Irritate -- irritating. You can count on it. 22 Hut. permanent, damage -- it says, "no permanent 2 3 damage . " 24 It says, "Flush with large amounts of 2 3 water," and then goes on to say, "Bee the eye NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000317 21 6 1 doctor." 2 Now, here aqai ii, the implication As 3 don't hang around night hours to tend to this. 4 Promptly, if At gets in your eye, do something about 5 it. Wash it with copious amounts - - you'll want to 6 do it., believe hi e. 7 0. Well, let me ask you about that. You fl didn't advise anyone to see a physician if they got 9 it. on their skin, only if they got it in their eye, l 0 correct? J 1 MR . CRAWFORD t Well l 2 A . This As c o r r e e t. ) 3 MR. CRAWFORD*. Wait. l 4 A. -- on shortterm contact yes. 1 5 MR. CRAWFORD* He said, "recommend Ifi that they see a physician." I don't see that in 1 7 there. 1 fl THK WJTNKSHs Here. "To relieve the 19 irritation, physicians have used" -- well - 2 0 MR. CRAWFORD i Yeah, but doesn't, 2 l say -- okay. Ct says what they -~ 2 2 A. "If Aakeral" - "flush with large amounts 2 3 of water a s with .ill eye first aid." 24 MR. CRAWFORD: So 2.5 MR. [.ACRYs "Refer to a physician," do NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000318 24 / 1 you. afifi that, Walt nr. 2 MR. CRAWFORD; Yeah, but. ~~ 3 THE W ITNKSS : Yes . 4 MR. CRAWFORD: Oh, you mean it - - it. 5 nntions a physician, but i. t doesn't say g o to one, 6 MR. I.ACRYt Well, it. flays, "refer.to a 7 p h y a i r. 1 a n . " 8 TWR WITNESS i It. says, "refer to a 9 phya Lclan." 1 0 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Mr. Beniqnus, doesn't - U A. Yes . 12 Q. --- "refer t.o a physician" mean go to a 13 doc tor? 14 A . Yes. IS MR. CRAWFORDi Okay. lfi A. And this ia the meaning of it, yes. 17 MR. CRAWFORD! Okay. 1 8 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Okay. Anything else you 19 want to coiannt on that? Are you satisfied? 20 A. Wo. I'm satisfied. 21 Q. Okay. 2.2 A . You know what, my meaning is here. There's 2 3 no use for us to do bate this thing -2 4 Q. 3 think you're right. 2 5 A . - ~ further. NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000319 `1 o 1 Pardon? 2 Q. I think you're right. That's a matter that 3 the jury can resolve for us. 4 I,et. me show you another document., 2 2 67 5 through 2 298. And this i. a "Monsanto Asker a J. 6 Inspection and Maintenance Guide, Revised September, 7 1963." Do you aee that on the cover - 8 A . Yes . 9 Q . ... _ where it says "revised"? 10 Now, is that a subsequent version to 1 J the ones we've been lookinq at.? 12 A . C would say so, yes. 13 0 So, the others must have been written 1 4 sometime before September, 1963? 1 5 A . Yes . 16 Q. If you would, find the section in that 17 revised version that deaLs with the handling 18 procedures and look at. it. and tell me whether those 19 are the same as the ones in the previous nonrevised 20 version. 21 A . Looks the same to me. 2 2 Q. Okay . 23 A . To me, it - - i t.'s the same. 2 4 Q. All right. Now, let me direct your 2 ii at.t.ent.ion t.o some more Aakeral Inspection and NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000320 /. A -> t Maintenance 0u ldes . first, 1 want to show you 2 Docuaent 2450 throuqh 24/7. This has qot a .1 different cover on It - 4 A . Yes, i t. does . 5 Q . - - but i. s that a n o t h e r version of that same 6 inspect i o ti and maintenance guide that you prepared? 7 A. It encompasses it, yes, plus there is more 8 information in this. It's an - - it. has addition to, 9 expansion of, enlargement of. 10 And the date do you have the date I. I of this? 1 2 Q Well, 1 wan going t.o ask you about that. 1.1 A . 1 would say 1975. 1 4 Q 1 9 7 5? l 5 A . t think that's the date. 16 Q . Okay. I *ve got one -- 17 A . I can't read it there. The date isn't on 18 here. It's blocked off. there. Rut. that, I think - 19 do wo have any other copy of that? 2 0 Q. I've qot. some other copies that indicate' 2 l thoy wore revised. T have one that indicates it was 2 2 revised in March of '75, and another one .iridicatinq 2.1 it was revised in August of '76. Rut this one 24 apparently is not the revised one. 2 5 Now, C wondered if maybe you could NELLMCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. ' WATER PCB-SD0000000321 /b0 L help me try to date this. Were were you involved 2 in thia? 3 A . I was n o L t h e r e . 4 Q. When th i. s was done? *> A . When this w a a done. 6 Q E see . So , the language in this document 7 :i a sometime after your retirement in 1 974 ? 8 A . Correct. 9 Q. Okay. Were these inspection and I. 0 maintenance qu Idea that we've previously looked at, 1 ] in particular the ont: that, was reviued in September l 2 of: 1963, the one that remained In use until the time 1 3 that, you ret i r e <1V J 4 A . Yes. 1 don't know of anything other. L 5 Q. Okay. f.ot me - - let me get that copy back 1 6 from you. 1 7 So, if J understand correctly, the 18 document marked 7.267 through 2298 was the Aakeral 1 9 "Monsanto Askerai Inspection and Maintenance 2 0 Guide" - 21 A . I t. h i n k the wire broke. 2 2 Q. fJh-oh. hot'a -- Let me see if: l can help 2 2 v o u got that, hooked back together here. 1 think it. 2 A just popped out oC your holder. ?S A. Yeah. Oh, T see. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000322 2.t> l L Q . There you g o . 2 A. Thank you. 3 Q . , Let me - - let ino go back and ask that 4 question, and ) et. mo have t he document, hack ho we 5 can a e t it clear. 6 A . (Witness complies) 7 Q . I ft I understand your testimony, then, the B "Monsanto Aakerai Inspection and Maintenance Guide" 9 revised September, 1963, Document No. 2267 through 1 0 2298, was the document that Monsanto made available l t about its transformer Aakerai from 1963 until your 1 7 r e t. i rement. a t 1 9 7 4 ? L 3 A. (Witness nods head) J.4 Q. Is lliat. correct? l 5 A. I wouLd say that is correct. 1 6 Q. And, then, t.he document that I've shown l 7 you, another updated "Monsanto Inspection" -- 1 0 AskeraJ Inspection and Maintenance Guide, Document L 9 2450 through 2477, is an updated revision that 70 didn't come out until after you had left Monsanto in 2 t 1974? 2?. A . This is correct.. 2 3 Q. And you didn't have anything to do with 2 4 updating that inspection and maintenance guide? 2.3 A. Right. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000323 2 > 2 1 Q. And, then, when wo coe to the "Monsanto 2. Transformer flukera] Inspection and Maintenance 3 Guide," revised March, 1975, Document 24L through 4 2 68, that's a revision of the one I've -just shown 5 you, but, again, prepared after your retirement, 6 correct? 7 A . Correct. 8 Q And, then, when we c one -9 A . This has the date on 11. 10 Q Yes, it does. l l A . Yeah 1 2 Q Tha t. 'a a revision of the one -13 A . Oh , r sue. 1 4 Q - - that doesn't, have a date. 15 A . A i 1 right. Well, is it? Weil -TM J f> Q T believe it. is. l 7 A . Yeah , it seems to be 18 Q You ' 11 note that the first, one doean 19 the "S" in the number. 7 0 A . Doesn't have an " R" in what, number? 2 1 Q. Let me show you here. 2 2 A . Oh, all r i q h t . A !l J r i q h t. . You're 2 3 looking. 3 8 and this La 3 8- 8. 7 4 Q . You'll see this is known as boih the No. 2 5 T C / F F .3 8 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000324 I A . R iqht . 2 Q. - - and the one-: that, w a a revised in March of 3 197 S la IC/FF-38-R. 4 A. T h i a is riqht. 5 Q . And Lhfin lot: mo show y <a \i t h o Last o n o , 6 "Monsanto Trans former Aakeial inspection and 7 Main ten,in ca Guide," Document 2470 throuijh 2505. 8 You'll note it has the same bulletin number, 9 T C / P F - .3 8 - 1 0 A . Riqht, R- 2 . 1 t Q - - b u t it'3 R-2 and shows it was -- ]?. A . ' 7 6 . 1.3 9. . - revised A u q u s 1:, '76. 1 4 A . Exactly ] fi Q So, all three of t.hose last ones that. 16 have t. ho different cover on them -- could you just 1 7 lioJ d one of those up so the camera can aee what the L 8 covov looks like? 19 A. (Witness complies) 20 Q. Those "Transformer A s k e r a 1 Inspection and 2 1 Maintenance Guides" were all produced after 19/4, 22 when you retired? 2 3 A. T hia ia riqht. 2 4 Q. Okay. Fine. And you, then, wouldn't know 2 b who put. in t h e information on toxicoloqy and NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000325 I duvnia to Loijy in thoss documi! n t. s ? 2 A . No . 3 Q. You 4 A . 3 wasn't there. 5 Q. You wouldn't claim any responsibility tor 6 i t. at all; is t h a t. e one c t V 7 A. I wasn't there. 8 Q. Okay. Well, T guess what. I'm asking you 9 isi You weren't working on a revision of that 10 document before your retirement, or any-thing? 1 1 A , No . 1 2 Q. Okay. I.et me show you some more documents 1.3 that relate to transformers and Askeral. 1 4 First, Jet me show you a document, IS called, "When Specifying Transformers, Here's How To 16 Get More Money and" .... "More Performance and Save L 7 Money," a document 0/FF--14, with No. 7 411 through 1 fl 2 4 7 5. 19 Have you seen that, document before? 7.0 K. Not in th i s form. I've seen It - 21 Q Di d you - 2 2 A . - " in a different form . 23 Q- Okay. And what, is different? Th e cover? 7 4 A . The - - the - - not onLy the cover; but it 2 5 was a folder, about t. h i s large, t. h a t unfolded. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000326 /. -i -> 1 Q. 1 think if: y o u ' L L look at that, that may bo 2 a copy of a uc h a document, that did unfold because a n you look Inside -- - 4 A. It has to be. '5 Q. Okay. When this t h i n g was original Ly in 6 Monsanto'a manufacture, it was somet. hinq that, folded 7 out into a longer sheet? fl A . yea. 9 Q . Okay. Does that, appear t.o be a copy of 10 that folder that you've previously seen? 1 1 A . R i q h t. . 12 Q . Did you have - 1 3 A . yes. 14 Q . -- anything to do with preparing that L 5 f: o 1 d e r ? 1 f. A. T know when it was prepared. And t.hi3 was 17 prepared by a writer in the advertising department, IB and I'm aware of this. It. has some of the. same 19 statements in it that our maintenance guide has in 2 0 it. 21 Q. Let. me ask you to look at the page that's 22 labeled or the section that's labeled "Why 2 3 Askeral , " close to the front.. 3.4 A. oh, yes, "Why iskflr.il . " 2 [> Q . it. says there "For almost. 40 years A s k e r a 1 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000327 i transformers," and goes onto describe It. That 2 would indicate, would it not, that this document was 3 written around 19/0? 4 A. No. I appreciate your analysis here. If b you will -- and this is what I was looking at - it 6 says "30 years" elsewhere. 7 Q. Well, yeah. In the documents you wrote in 8 the early f> 0 ' s , it said 3 0 years? 9 A. Go does this, 10 Q. Well, here it nays "40 years." l 1 A. c do not disagree. 1 ?. Q. You think that's - I 3 A. That's right. 1 4 Q . - ~ a typographical error? 1 5 A . This Is lightweight. It's a leaflet, is 1 6 is what, it is, put. out. by a writer in the -- in our 1 7 advertising department. ] 8 Here, "There are many examples of over 19 30 years oE trouble-free operation," 30 years. Now, 20 here, 40 years is lined. This -- this is nothing 2\ critical. It has no significance -22 Q . I understand. 2 3 A. - - is what I a( saying to you. 2 4 Q . Well, I'm -ju s t. trying t.o figure ou t. when 2b the document was written. And if, in fact, it were NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000328 75 1 1 true that for almost 4 0 years Askeral t ran a former a 2 had been used then this document, would have been 3 written in the early Seventies or around that? 4 A . 1 think you're, right.. 5 Q. Okay. Do you believe it was. In fact, 6 wri tt.en around 1970? 7 A , No . 8 (). When do you believe it was written? 9 A. This was written in the mid 1960's. 1 0 Q Okay. So, this ia a little bit. of 11 overstatement when i.t says 40 years? 1 2 A . It's an aberration 1.1 Q Okay. Now, there are - - strike that. 1 4 What wan the purpose of this pamphl et.V 15 A . bet's look at the pictures -1 6 Q okay . 17 A . If we may. 1 0 Q Re happy to. 19 A . Here ' s a bu L id L iwj similar to what we have 70 where we are. Here's another one. Here i 8 a 21 shopping center. T. t -- - if T m i gh t -- - am r q olng t o o 22 fa3t? 21 Q No. Fine. 2 4 A . Here i - - is this a school? This is a 2 5 school. evidently. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000329 2SH 1 Q. Okay. 2 A. Ha a the fJaq. This is - 3 Q . Looks l i k a space ncudlo In Seattle or 4 something. 5 A. Yes. It's a commercial area. Here we have 6 some morn. You'Ll see here a hospital ~~ 7 Q . Uh-huh . 8 A . - -- hiqh-riae; again, shopping center; 9 industrial load center; schools - 1 0 Q . Uh huh . l l A. .... wo were r igh t on that. 1 2 That's the end of t. he pictures. L 3 Now, here's a transformer. 1 4 Q. Right. IS A . This is a leaflet., a flier, that. indicates Lfi use. the popular use, and Location of Agker.il 17 transformers. What this is saying, as you can see la f r o the pictures, the place, the Location, of use 19 of an Askeral transformer, in general it is used in 20 a populated -- people -- populated area where 21 judgment has been made that warrants spending the 2 2 increased money to have a transformer that is fire 2 3 resistant. Now, t h a t. is the overall premise for the 2 4 application of AskeraL transformers. I could add 2`i other places. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. . WATER PCB-SD0000000330 I (J h - h u h . 2 A. Now, the purpose of this is to qo to makers 3 of Alkerdl transformers, just as you have there, 4 A 11i8-Cha1mera. They qot. this, too, a a did other 5 transformer makers. Insurance people would get 6 t. h i 8 . Archi tects and contractors would get this. 7 They build these buildings. The engineering 8 department, the maintenance department, the design 9 department, what have you, of Industrial places; 1 0 such as, the automotive industry; such as. Clour l l mills, places that are dusty, cement plants, and so 1 2 forth, places where there is anticipated to be water 13 exposure, this kind of thing. 1 4 This is for general information and 15 circulation. 1 6 Q. Is it fair to say that, this was designed 17 not only to go to people who manufactured 1 8 transformers, but, also, to people who might specify 19 branaCoraara? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And the goal was to encourage those people 2 2 to specify Askeral or PCH transformers in locations 2 3 that. Monsanto and others thought, were good ones for 2 4 PCR transformers? 2.5 A. Where Monsanto -- wait a minute. I'm going NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000331 i. b U 1 to chamje th l 3 , 2 Q. Peel free, 3 A. Where Monsanto was informed that the 4 consensus of people who had .... were in position to 5 select transformers did, Lndeed, select Askoral t. ransf orsers and install them in those locat ions . 7 And some of those are represented here. 0 Q. Well, you can agree with mo that in some of 9 these particular uses, there were other non-PCB } 0 products that, might be competing to be the t l transformer selected by, say, an architect for a 1 2. particular use, can't you? t:j A. In those applications that are depicted 1 4 here, 1 would not put. a mineral oil transformer, 15 neither would the insurance people 1 6 Q. Wei 1 , 1 guess 17 A. -- to give an example. 18 (). I guess I'm trying to find out. whether this 19 document warn designed to put out information that 2 0 Mon man to thought, was appropriate to get. architects, 21 builders, and owners to say that they wanted Askerai 22 transformers. 2 3 A. Correct. And it. stems from our knowinq 2 4 that this is, indeed, what was in vogue and was 2 5 being done. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000332 /b ) t Q. I understand. 2 A . Correct. . 3 Q. And one of the reasons M o n a a n t o wontd be 4 interested In people apoc Ifiying Askeral transfiormora b is because Mon a dnt.o made all the PCB ' s that. went. 6 Into those transformers? 7 A. I think that ia obvious. 8 Q . And the more Asker a l transformers that were 9 specified, t.he acre PCH ' s Monsanto could make and 10 sell, correct? 1 1 A . Correct.. t 2 Q. Okay. And that's why you would be 13 interested in putting out. literature to encouraqe 1. 4 peop l.e to use Askeral transformers? 1 5 A. Correct. 1 6 Q. Okay. Now, there -- in this literature is 17 a discussion not only of Askeral transformers, but 18 what. Monsanto believed were the advent a q e s of 19 Askeral transformers over other transformers that 2 0 might be used, correct? 2 1 A. Oh, I'll say "yes." And we didn't think a 2 2 mineral oil transformer would have any advantage. 2 3 q . Right. And you even compiired them to 2 4 dry-type transformers? 2 8 A. Correct. Now we are in gear. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000333 X (. / I Q. Okay. 2 A. Right. 3 Q. And one ran compare the fire capabilities, 4 noise capabilities, the need to build a vault to b maintain .... 6 A. Water exposure, dust exposure, and hazards 7 from that sources in the caso of a open dry-type. 8 In other words, really there are places where one 9 should not Install an open dry-type transformer. 10 Q. Okay. Now, there are potential problems l 1 with Askoral transformers in places like office 1 ?. buildings and schools, are there not? L 3 A. Any piece of electrical apparatus can be - 1 4 no piece of electrical apparatus, transformer, no 18 matter what It is, that doesn't have something to be 16 concerned about. 1 '/ Is this what, you were asking? 18 Q. Yeah. r guess i u s t in view of this 19 advertising literature 2 0 k. They can all explode, for example. 7.1 Q. Yeah. And and the explosion of a PCH 2 2 transformer can cause problems, just like the 2 3 explosion of an f> i 1 t.ran s f ormer V 2\ A. Or of a dry-type transformer. 2 S Q. Certainly. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000334 <.0.1 I A. They could cause more problems. 2 Q . Well, axe you f a m i ] i a r with t.he triinsformer 3 that exploded Ln the oft; ice building in 13 in q ham ton, 4 New York? it A . 1 heard of t hat.. That was after 1 ) e f t. 6 Q But you've heard about that problem? 7 A . I've heard a boil t. that . 8 u. And do you know what happened up there? 9 A . ln a general way , yes. It was -* the to transformer exploded. It was Ln a -- this was a 1 1 very rare incident of -- of a failure. Now -- t 2 Q. Hut it contaminated the whole building with J 3 PC Ft ' a , didn't it? 1 4 A. You said "exploded." 1 don't know that it 15 exploded. L was not in the area on this. 1 6 Q. 1 understand. What have you hoard? i 7 A. There was a failure, let me say. 1 9 Q. Yea. And that resulted in the building 19 being contaminated with PCB'u, did it not? 2 0 MR. CRAWFORD*. Just tell him what you 2 l know, Mr. Ren Minus. Answer his question. 2 2 A. Well, the building was contaminated with 23 PCR . 2 4 Q. (Fly Mr. Lacey) And that building stands 25 vacant to this day because of that problem, doesn't NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.. WATER PCB-SD0000000335 /h 4 I i t? 2 MR. CRAWFORD: If you know. 3 A.. I don't know. I havo not - - this i. a E t h r 4 y time. ft Q. (Ry Mr. Lacey) You really haven't, followed 6 what'a happened to PCB'3 since your retirement? 7 A. I have not. And the kind of incident that, a you're talking about la very rare. The incident of 9 failure, as judged by the Edison Electric Institute 10 when t was involved, waa of the order of a ew 3 3 hundred!.hs of a percent per year, which is, indeed, 12 very low. 1 3 So, I do know that, in later years, 14 there wa3 this failure. You said in ~ in New 1 ft York? 16 Q. Binghamton, New York. 17 A. Binghamton, New York. 3 8 Q. Okay. You just haven't followed up on what 19 happened In things like that? 20 A . No . 21 Q. Okay. In thin particular literature about 2 2 specifying transformers, the reference i. s made to 2 3 normal q oo d housekeeping. What ia "normal good 2 4 housekeeping" as that term Is used in a document 2ft like this? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000336 tt n I A. I would say "normal good housekeeping" 2 means that if there 5 g a spill, in accordance with 3 good housekeeping -- and it says in this 4 literature put. sawdust down, soak it. up in 5 sawdust; or vaqa or what have you. 6 What I'm saying is don't spill it. 7 around. And if it gets on your clothes, it 8 encompasses this. Reasonable care and cleanliness. 9 Change your clothes if it spills onto you, y** 1 0 {). Change your clothes i.mmediately, would that l l be what you'd think "good housekeeping" would be? 12 A. That's what. I would - -- what I would say. 13 yes . 1 4 Q. Well - IK A. Don't continue to wear that clothing. It 16 doesn't mean you have to jump up, you know, and (jot 1 7 all excited. But it does say if it spills on your 18 clothes, change it. 19 Q. Okay. Now, you're not. saying this 20 particular document we've -just been looking at, 21 "When Specifying Transformers Here's How t.o Get More 2 2 Performance And Save Money," talks about changing 2 3 clothes or anything like that.? 7.4 A. )! don't know. 2h Q. Weil, do you want to take a look at it? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000337 /66 1 A . I don't know. 2 Q. T don't think it. says anything like that, in .3 there, 4 THK VIDKOGRAPHRR: Excuse me. 1 need 5 to go off: the record. 6 MR. CRAWFORD: Do you want, to take a 7 break for lunch? It'a 12:00 -- a THE VIDKOGRAPHKR r The time is 11:57 9 a.a. i o (Noon Recess) 11 THE VIDKOGRAPHKR: We are now back on ] 2 the record. The time is 1:0.3 p.m. 13 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Mr. Henignus, let me hand 1 4 you again a document we were looking at. before the IS break. Document 2411 through 2425, Document Q/FF-14 16 in Monsanto's nomenclature, entitled "When 17 Specifying Transformers, Hero's How to Get More IB Performance and Save Money," and ask you whether 19 that document, anywhere In It, indicates that it a 2 0 person gets PCFl-containing Askeral fluid on them 21 they should change their clothing Immediately. 2 2 A . 1 don't think it. does. I paged through 2.3 it. I don't find that. 2.4 Q. Now, did you have unything to do with the 2 5 writing of tho language in this document that you're NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000338 2 fc 7 I looking at? 2 A. Our advert i s i ncj writer wrote this. .3 Q. You didn't riiv low it for accuracy or 4 any thinq else? li A. Weil, it.'a a very light document. There's 6 no technology in this thing at all. So, I may not 7 have been involved in it. I know what, he was doing 8 was sending out a leaflet to try and got the name 9 Askeral and show a picture of an Askeral l I) transformer, call that to the attention of people 1 1 who do use transformers. That was the purpose of 12 i t . 1.3 It's not. a technical thing. It's no t 4 technology in Lt. There's no toxicology, 1 5 dermat o J o g y , or medical. It's just, a very nebulous 16 kind of a thing to, hopefully, enhance the 1 7 popularity of Askeral. At. least, people would have 18 heard the name. 19 Q. Are you telling me t.he document is not 20 necessarily accurate? 2 1 A. No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying it'3 2 2 not a heavyweight document and It doesn't get 2 3 into -- other than comments, general comments, a b o u t. 2 4 Askar els. There are many examples of over over 213 30 years of trouble free operation, makes statements NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000339 2.6 8 I Like that. t would a g roe with. E t says Aaknra l 2 fluids are fire resistant. 3 MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Renlgnus, if you'll 4 try to just answer his question, we'll move along a 5 little faster if you do that. I think he'd 6 appreciate that; and we would, too. 7 A . What was it? 0 Q (By Mr. Lacey) Let -- let me ask you to 9 take a look now at the Document 2332 through 2346 1 0 and ask if that's another copy of this same document l l called "When Specifying Transformers, Hero's How" -] 2 A . Yes . 1 3 Q. -- "To Get More Performance And Save 14 Money"? 1 5 A . Yes, it is. 16 Q. Okay. Now, Let me show you some more 17 documents. Let me show you Document 2426 through l 8 24.37 , also entitled "Here's How to Get More 19 Performance and Have Money When Specifying 20 Trans formers," a similar title to the preceding one, 2 1 and ask you to take a look at. that, briefly. 2 2 A . [ ' vo looked at it. 2 3 Q. Now, t. h a t. document, has on it. at. the front 2 4 an indication that it was a now document created in 2 5 August of J 9 6 7 ; is that, correct.? NELL MCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000340 269 I A. L would think that that'a about correct. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A . I don't know where t hat, cornea from, but. T 4 would agree. fi Q. That, handwriting was on the document when 6 it came to mo Prom Monsanto. E don't know who wrote 7 t. h a t there, but that, is what's written on t. h a t a document. 9 A. I would agree with that. 3 would -- 1 0 Q. And it' you turn to the inside page of the 11 document., it talks about - - T think you need to l 2 maybe turn one more page. 1 3 A. Okay . 14 Q. Or maybe that's the page. No, turn one l 5 more page. 1 ft A. (Witness complies) t 7 Q. It talks about. Asker a L transformers having 1 a been used for 37 years? 19 A. Ya, I noticed this, looking at it; but you 20 look further back, you get. back to 30 years. This 2 1 is a little bit loose. 2 2 Q. Well, w h a t I was going t. o look at, I mean, 2 3 if this document, in fact, was new In 1967, would 37 24 years be correct.; that is, from 1930 to 1967? 2`i A. Well, that would be 37 years. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000341 270 I Q . Okay. 2 A . Rut. whether that, is accurate, 1 don't, 3 know. You run into the statement back hero, .3 0 4 years of trouble free service. 5 Q . Right. 6 A. I'd hate to say there was seven year's of 7 troubled service. 8 Q. T understand. Look back at the back of the 9 document. Do you find a code number on -- anywhere ] 0 at the back that helps you tell when it was l L produced? ) 2 A. The thing I could decipher here is *67, if 13 tha t is it. 1 4 Q. Yeah. That, would be consistent, with t.he t 5 note o n the front? 16 A. It would, and consistent, with these other l 7 things. t know when this thing was put out. 1 8 Q. Now, who was responsible for putting out. L 9 that document? 2 0 A . The same writer. And it's t. h e 3 a m e tenor 21 oC thinga . 2 2 Q . And was it. intended for the sane market., 2 3 pnop I. o who 2 4 A. Yes, same purpose. 2 5 Q. To encourage people to use Askeral NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000342 z/ 1 I transformers? 2 A. To cal] Askerala to their attention; and, 3 hopefully, that it would leave a favorable 4 impress!on, yea. f> 0 . Then the whole point, ia to get. them to 6 specify Askeral transformers? 7 A . Yes . 8 Q So t hat there wilJ he more so] d and more 9 demand Cor Monsanto's L1 C B Astcerals? 1 0 A . That's what, we said before, right. l L Q Okay. Now, this document also talks about 1 2 A a k e r a ] transformers and handling them, does it not. 13 where it saya , "Let's get all the facts on the ] 4 table?" Can you find that, section of the - 1 5 A . What page --- oh, what page ia it? 1 6 Q. It. appears to be on Page fi. But I'm not l 7 sure If I've (^ot an exact duplicate of yours or not. i a b u t t. h e page on t.he document, seems to be Page f> . i 9 A . And --- and what was your question, again? 20 Q. There's a section called, ''Let's get. all 2 l the facts on the table." 2 2 A . Oh, yeah, I - - I have if.. 2 3 Q. And there it indicates that Askeral fluids 2 4 have been manufactured handled and used safely for 2 S 37 years; is that correct? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000343 2 /2 I A. Yes, that's what that says. 2 Q. And, aqain, that would be consistent, with .3 the period from 19.30 to 1967 , correct? 4 A . Right. f. Q. And when you hear a phrase like "They've 6 been manufactured, handled, and used safely for 37 7 yearn," t. hat would imply people haven't gotten 8 injured as a result of them, correct? 9 A. That, is the implication, yes. l 0 Q. And then there's this discussion again 1 1 about standard normal good housekeeping practices, l 2 <: o r r net? 1 3 A . Right. 1 4 Q. The same sort, of standard good housekeeping l 8 practices that you would use with other industrial 1 6 materials, right? I. 7 A. Yes, that's what it say3. 18 Q. Doesn't, indicate any any precautions are 19 needed with PCfl's other than what you would use with 20 other industrial materials, correct? 2 1 A. That's what it says. 22 q. Okay. Now, let me hand you another 7 3 document with the same title, "Here's How to Get 2 4 More Performance and Save Money When Specifying 2 5 T r a n s C o r it o r s " -- this is Document 2438 t h r o u g h NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000344 L 2 4 4 9 - - dnd ask L ff this is the same document, only 2 an updated version, that, according to the code, 3 would have been produced in June of 1971. 4 MS. 0 LKSK N : What were those pages 5 again? I'm sorry. 6 MR. CRAWFORD: What's the beginning 7 page there, Mr. Henignus? 8 THK WTTNRSS: This? 9 MR. CRAWFORD: Yeah, right here? 1 0 2438. l l MS. Q LF.S RN i Okay. 1?. A. Weil, here you come into this nuaber we 1.3 don't know of 71. I'm a bit confused by this, say, 14 19 7 1 . IS Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Let me show you right L6 hero -- I believe there's a code number right here, 1 7 which i ri d i c a t. e s -- 18 A. Yeah . 19 Q. -- 06-7 1 20 A . -6 . 21 Q. Yes. That would indie ate June of '7], 2 2 wouldn't it? 2 3 A. I cannot say this. I'm confused with that. 24 one. 2. S Q. Okay. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000345 7. / 4 1 A. L don't know i. f th.it ' s - - that strange '71 2 we've been runninq into on all of these thinqs or 3 whether nay be the year here is '66, which is 4 correlates with the time these - which is in 5 correlation with t h time that these thinqs w o r e put 6 out . 7 Q. Okay. Well, let me show you something else 8 on that same page. We have a list of the district 9 sales offices for all divisions, do we not? l 0 A. Yes. 1 1 Q. And down at the bottom of the section that l 2 lias that list thero's the notation 4/71, isn't 1 3 there? 1 4 A . 1 see this, correct. 1 5 And that indicates that that list of 16 district, sales offices is as they existed in April I. 7 oe 1971, is it not? 1 0 A . 1 would say so. 19 Q. So, we know that the document is after 20 April of 71, then? 21 A . That is what it - I would have to agree 2 2 w L t h that 7.3 Q. Okay . 74 A. -- based on the numbers. And I do not 2 S disagree with that. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000346 27 ^ I Q- Yoah. And, no, i t. would rerU in ly not bo 2 illogical, then, that it could have been published 3 in 6-71, aa the code would indicate, two months 4 after they prepared the list of district offices? 5 A. Excuse me? 6 Q. The code number, the long code number, not 7 the district office number, but the long code number 8 at the bottom of that, same page is 06 - - names the 9 numbers 06-71, does it not? 1 0 A. I think so, yen, I. I Q And that could be indicative of June of 71, 1 ? wouldn't it? 13 A . Oh, yes . 1 4 Q . And it wo vi Id make sense that this could l 5 have been published in June of '71, after the 1 6 district, sales office list was prepared .in April of L 7 '71? 18 A. Yes . 19 Q. Or sometime thereafter? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay. 2 2 A . It. m u a t. have been a revision of earlier. 2 3 Q. Exactly, a revision of the document we 2 4 first, saw that, was prepared in August, of '67, 2 8 c orroct? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000347 2 /6 t A . Yes. 2 Q. Okay . 3 A . And this is a revision of that in '71. 4 Q. Let me show you a Document No. 226`> through 5 2 2 6 6 and ask if y o u can identify t h a t document. 6 A . Yes. 7 Q. Who prepared t.hat document? 8 A . The same person. 9 Q. Okay. Somebody in this advertising group? L 0 A . Yes, an advertising writer. 1 1 Q Do you know when that document was t 2 pro pa red? 13 A . 3 t.'s - - pardon? l 4 Q Do you know when that document was IS prepared? 16 A. I would say this one wan prepared in the t 7 approximate tino period of mid '66, as are these, ia other than what you've shown here, come up with a 19 revision of one that was prepared. So, I put that 2 0 into the time frame. Whether it's a revision or 2 1 not, this, I don't know. L don't see the -- the 22 date of issue. 2 3 MR. CRAWFORD s David, let me iust .... 2 4 can I a3k just a few questions to qet this straiqht, 2 l> because I'm not. sure t.hat what's gone on here has NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000348 2l / I bean dead accurate. 2 MR . I.ACKY : Well .1 MR. CRAWFORD! I don't sen any 4 difference between 2426, that series, and 2438 Tj except that there is attached to it a list of 6 district, offices. So, to say t. his is - - 7 MR. b AC Rtf: It may well be another n reprinting, Walter. 9 MR. CRAWFORD: Okay. 1 0 MR. I.ACKY: That's what we've seen, 1l here are various reprint inqs - 1 2 MR. CRAWFORD: Right. But you said 1 3 "revision . '* 14 MR. L A C K Y : - with no changes. 1 5 MR. CRAWFORD! It's really not a ] 6 revision. It's the same - - actually t.he same l 7 document exactly. The only difference is it's got 18 the offices attached to it. 19 MR. I.ACRY: Weil, which is a 2 0 difference between the two documents. 21 MR. CRAWFORD: The only difference, 2 2 nut. the document could be the same, just with the 2 3 offices attached on. 2 4 MR. I.ACKY i No problem wi th that. 2 5 MR. CRAWPORDi And the offices could NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000349 2 7 rt I havo bofin what would bo revised In '7L. So, it 2 could be the same thi ncj . 3 MR. L A C RY ! Rut reprinted in '71. 4 THK WITNKSS: Reprinted. The word 5 " r o v i. a o d " - 6 MR. CHAWKORDi Well, not. even 7 reprinted, but maybe sent out. And -- well, at 8 least, we know the addition of the offices was 9 apparently '71, 1 0 MR. LACRY: Kxact.ly. 1 1 MR. CRAWFORD: That's all we can 1 2 really say. 13 MR. 1. A C R Y : That's fine. And 1 4 that's -1 i THK WITNESS: Well, that's an 16 Intersa ting point, too, isn't it? 1 7 MR. LACRYr Yeah. That would be 18 fine. 19 Q. (By Mr. L acey) Tha t. would mean that 2 0 Monsanto, in 1971, is (jivliuj out the very same 21 information it qave out. when the document, was fi r s t. 2 2 printed in '67? 2 3 A . Yes. One would have to -24 Q. And certainly if there were a change in the 2 b information that. Monsanto knew between 196 7 and NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.. WATER PCB-SD0000000350 I 1971, it would fort approprUtft to modify the 2 d o cru aents to .incorporate new information before it. 3 was sent out, wouldn't it? 4 MR. CRAWFORD : Well, if you know it 5 waa sent out in *71, Mr. Hen ujnus, j ua t concentrate 6 on what you know. 7 A. Well, 1 don't know. All I - ~ I'm trying to 8 follow along here. I told you. I'm somewhat 9 confused with that one. 10 Q. (Ry Mr. ha coy) Well, you-a IV didn't 1J prepare these books to have them ait on the shelf, 12 did you? 13 A . J didn't., no . 14 Q. They were prepared to be given to people 1 r who would be specifying transformers? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And, no, if you add a list, of district, 19 sales offices to a document and print it, you're 19 preparing to have it. sent, out., correct? 2 0 MR. CRAWFORD 3 If that's. In fact, 21 what happened. 2 2 A. If that is what happened, yes. 23 Q. (Ry Mr. r.aoey) Well, let me let me just 2 4 make sure what -- 2 3 A. This here ~- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000351 Atiii I MR. CRAWFORD : Those di'fi exactly the 2 same here, apparent.J y , 3 A. You see., what's being 3 a Id, that t h i. 3 4 literature is exactly the same - ~ you know, somebody 5 could have punched thin addition onto this thing. 6 I.et. me say t his - - I'm pretty sure I'm 7 correct oE this TM- these folders that these are -- a see, this didn't, go out in this form. They went, out 9 in a folder. Those folders did not have added to J 0 then this. 11 Q. (Fly Mr. Lac.ey) So, you're telling me when 12 Monsanto gave me th.it document as an entire 1 3 document. - L 4 A. think that's a 1! Q. --- they made a mistake? 16 A. think this is an aberration. 17 Q. Okay. 1 R A. 3 really do. This is why I am tel)inq you 19 I am confused with it. think this is an 2 0 aberration because 3 know that, this that, came out. 2 l did not have thl3 with It. 2 2 MR . LACEY : Walter - 2 3 A. So, how this got on there, I do not know. 24 MR. I.ACKY: Let. me make it clear on 2 5 the record) We've (jot a problem with documents with NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000352 28 1 1 this witness saying that's not the way the documents 2 caie, and what y o u- a]1 presented to me was that 3 right there as a document of Monsanto. 4 MR. CRAWFORD: David, I don't know 5 what the situation .... whether that was attached to 6 it or not.. I mean, Mr. Henignus would - 7 MR. LACKY: Mr. Benignus is 30(b)(6) 8 corporate representative on the advcrtisinq of 9 Monsanto on dielectrics. 10 Q. (By Mr. l.acey) And that's advertising on l L dielectrics, is it not, Mr. Benignus? 1 2 A. In that category, yes. 13 Q . And you've here as a designated 1 4 repreacTitative of the company today telling me that l 5 that document isn't really a copy of: the way the 16 Monsanto documents were in their file, correct? L 7 A. I - this Is my opinion of this thing. 1 0 Q. Okay. And you're the designated 19 representative of the company and saying that? 20 A. I am saying that. 2 1 Q, Okay. And T can rely on what you're 2 2 saying? 2 3 A. You can. 2 4 MR. CRAWFORD: Let me -2 5 A. l don't know how this -- I cannot account NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000353 t82 I l;or t h i 3 , 2 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Okay. It. doesn't, make 3 sense; It shouJ.dn'l; bo that way. La that correct? 4 A. It doesn't make sense to me. You don't 5 find this on any of! the other - 6 Now, I t h A n k there's something An 7 addition to this. Lot *3 look it there, whatever. J. 8 don't know. 9 Q. Those are the only two documents of that 10 particular type they've given us, and one has it and 1 J one doesn't. 1 2. A. Weil, this was in the time frame. 13 Q. Now, when you're talking about "this," 14 you're talking about the Document 2 0 - - let me look 15 here - - 2265, 2 2 66. 1 6 A. Uh-huh. 1 7 Q. And that, was -- - that was - - when you say 18 "in the time frame," you're talking about in tho inid 1 9 1960'a? 20 A. Mid 1960's. 2 1 Q. Okay. 2 2 A. That's where 1 would put. this thing. And 21 thnre is there 1967. 2 4 1 stand confused by this. 2 5 Q. And the contusion arises from the fact that NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000354 28 3 1 the document that Monsanto has produced us in thi.3 2 case that's numbered 24 38 through 24 4 9 doesn't, j ook 3 in its entirety like the documents you recall 4 Monsanto having? ?> A. It. -- I recall in my opinion. 1 could 6 be wrong. T don't know. 7 Q. Okay. Well, you're the representative of 8 the company; so, we're going to have to rely on what 9 you say about, it. 1 0 A . So, T can't be wrong, huh? 1 I Q. That's ~~ that's about what it amounts to. 12 They're representing that you're the person who 13 knows. 14 A. Well IS MR. CRAWFORD: I think he's a person 16 with knowledge about this. I don't know - 1 7 MR. LACEY: Well, let me make it very 18 clear. I asked for the company to designate the 19 person with the greatest, knowledge so I wouldn't 20 have somebody coming in and saying - - 21 MR. CRAWFORD: Well -2 2 MR. LACEY: -- "Oh, he didn't know 2 3 what he was talking about.. " 24 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, he is a parson 2*> with knowledge. Arid whatever - - NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.. WATER PCB-SD0000000355 ;84 I A . That i. s my host judgment. 2 Q. (Hy Mr. Lacey) Okay . .3 A . If I ' m wrong, L stand being corrected 4 and - - Q. Let show you another document, now, 6 called "The Care and Grooming of Askoral Transformer 7 Fluid," Document 2 S> 0 6 through 2 f> 2 1 and - - 8 A . Right. 9 Q . can you tell me about that? 10 A. Arid I will Look for what do you think? 1 1 I do not. find what they have there. I L 2 do find this. 1 3 Q . Which is what? l 4 A. Weil, this, now -or these district 1 S offices. This in a list, of district offices. 16 Now, let me took at thi3 other one. 1 7 That, too, is a list of district, offices. 18 However, this gives the street 19 address, et cetera. That one does not.. Now, here I 20 find the same -- oh, that's that one. 21 Does that, have that same number- on 2 2 it? 23 1 don't, know. I'm looking. 24 q. ft has a code number on it down there at 2 b t he bot. t.on . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000356 i rt b I A . " Ti i t h o in f J . S . 2 9 V l - 0 !5 6 2 - 1 0 . " I'm sorry. 2 I -3 Q. What can you tell me about that document? 4 Did you have anything to do with the preparation of! F> t. h a t document. ? 6 A. It's the same man that. - - that prepared 7 those. H Q. Who was that man who prepared t.hese 9 documents? 1 0 A . H i 1 1 Grosse. l 1 Q Rill? 1 3 A . Grosse, G K O Si S R . 13 0.. And how was he employed with Monsanto? 1 4 A . He was the advertising - - in charge of - L 5 he was the advertising director. I guess you'd caLl 16 him. Rill Grosse, t.he advertising director. 17 Q. Mow, was ho the advertising director for i a PCH's or for - 19 A . Everythi ng . 20 Q . Everything. 21 A . In the --- in the organic division. 2 2 Q. Where would he get. the information to go 2 3 into those booklets? 2 4 A . Me would get that, information from 2 'i excerpts. Color, clarity, and so forth, from the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000357 2H6 I spoc iU(M tiona , for instance, C t ' s - - it's c a l 1 e d 2 colorless, and it.'3 clear. 3 And then the black color and small 4 carbon particles, that indicates arcing. He would S have gotten that -- could have gotten that out of 6 that maintenance guide t.hat we looked at. earlier. 7 Dielectric strength Is --- these are B subjects out. of that maintenance guide. 9 Q. Well, would ho come and talk to a person 1 0 like you to get information to go in there and make l i sure It was accurate? 12 A . Yea , I would say so, that -- that he would l 3 this on the - - on the technical Information. 1 4 Q . Do you - 1 f A . it's c ertainly in line with what, we had in l 6 the maintenance guide. 1 7 Q. Do you recall whether Mr. Grosse did 18 consult with you about the information In that 19 particular piece of literature? 20 A. I don't recall It, specifically. This was 21 a long time ago. Hut T would assume that, ho did 2 2 because he Is printing here, publishing, data that 2 3 1 ooka like the data that. - - that 1 had accumulated. 2 4 Q. Thoro's a lot of technical information, ?i. isn't, there ? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000358 2H / 1 A. Thoro'9 technical Information. This is 2 what I'm getting at.. 3 Q. And Mr. Grouse wouldn't know all that 4 technical information without, the assistance of you, 5 would ho? 6 A. That in correct. 7 Q. May E see that just a minute? 8 A. Kit. her t. h e assistance of me and discussion 9 and/or extraction from our literature. 1 0 Q. This little character that we see on the l 1 front of the book -- can you kind o E hold that up so 1 2 the camera can take a look at that? 11 A. (Witness complies) 1 4 Q. That little character there, was that one 15 of Mr. Grosso's inventions? J 6 A. Yes, it was. 17 Q. Okay, And was that supposed to that 10 character was supposed to represent PCB's? 19 A . NO . 2 0 Q. What did that 21 A. That is supposed to draw attention which I 2 2 be1ieve you think it does do, do you? 2 2 Q E don't know. You'll have to tell me . 24 Does i t. draw attention? 2 5 A . E think It speaks for itself. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000359 28 8 I Q. Okay. So, that was Mr, Grosae ' g -- 2 A. That's Mr. Grouse. 3 Q. Okay. Now, in this book on "The Caro and 4 Grooming of AnkeraJ Transformer Fluid," there is a b section that talks about personal care and indie .it 03 6 that transformer Aukeral has been made and handled 7 and used for over 30 years without causing toxic or B other ill effects. Where would Mr. Grosse have 9 gotten the information like that? 1 0 A. He would have gotten that out of, probably, 1 l our maintenance guide. 1 2 Q. Okay . 13 A . That's my guess < 1 4 Q. I.et. me look at t h i s section with you IS brief l y, if I could. in the second sentence. where 16 he talks about persona] care. he says that, " A s k era 1 1 7 can bo handled in the same manner as insulating 1 B mineral oil." 19 A. Oh, I can show you where this conies from. 20 Q. Where does that come from? 21 A. That comes from outside of Monsanto. This 2 2 comes from the transformer industry. And you will 2B see this same wording here in literature published 2 4 ox-fJ . S . in the -- - some of those technical 2 5 organizations' p u b 1 icat ions. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000360 I Q. Okay. Now, horn ia - 2 A. That, is, in my opinion, where that, came 3 fro*. And thd t 1 9 where this was -- some of this was 4 extracted from. S Q. But this particular document is a Monsanto 6 publication, is it not? 7 A. Yea. a Q. And it.'a designed to go to various 9 customers of Monsanto? 1 0 A. Yes. 1) Q. And, in fact, it's designed to encourage l 2 the use of Askeral transformers, is it not? 1 3 A . Right.. 1 4 Q. And one of the things that's said t. o l 5 encourage the use of Askeral transformers is that, 16 " A a k e r a J can be handled in the same manner as l 7 insulating mineral oil," correct? 18 A . Correct.. 1 9 Q. And it indicates that, with regard to akin 20 contact, prolonged skin contact should be avoided 21 because there may be ari allergic reaction to 22 Askeral, just like there can be with mineral oil, 2 3 correct? 2 4 A. Where does it say "like there can be 2 5 with" -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000361 1 Q. "As with minora l oil" - 2 A. Oh, yss. Yes. 3 Q . -- "them may bo some p o o p l e allerijic bo 4 Askers 1. So, pr oJ onqed skin contact should b 5 avoided where possible," 6 A . That' a what. it. says, right.. 7 Q. And I guess 1 it's not possible to avo id B pro.1 onged skin c. o n t a c. t., as long as you're not 9 a l lorgic, you don't have to worry about it. la It 10 what hc'a saying? 11 MW. CRAWFORD: Well, does it say 12 that? 1 3 THR WITNESS: It doesn't say that. t 4 Q, (By Mr. Lacey) Well .... 1 5 A. It doesn't, say that.. That's - - that's an 16 assumption, 1 suppose. He doesn't say that. 17 Q. Or does it. indicate or clearly imply that, 10 tliore are situations where prolonged contact with 19 Aakeral cannot be avoided? 20 A. Well, I don't read this. 2 1 Q. Well, it. says, "should be avoided where 2 2 possible." Does that indicate there are situations 2 3 where it's not. possible to avoid prolonged skin 24 o o n t a o t ? 2 0 A . 1 can't think of any. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000362 ^ 'a i L Q . E sne, 0 ka y 2 A . I cannot think of any. 3 Q. All right. Now, with regard to this typo 4 of information hero, would Hr. Grouse have reviewed 5 these statements regarding what one should do in 6 contacting Askera 1 , with the medical department of 7 Hons a nto? 0 A. I would say it. should have been, or was. 9 Q. Rlther was or should have been? 10 A. Wither was or- should have been. 1 l Q . Okay. 1 2 A. Hut. I also am sayings Some of this l 3 writing, some of this exact writing, comes from 1 4 literature outnide of M o n a a n t. o . I'm not disagreeing l 5 with this. I'm telling you the source. 1 6 Q. Do you agree with it? l 7 A. E agree -- well, E'd like to road i. t over ia again before getting pinned. 19 Q . Sure . Foe l f: roe . 20 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, what section are 2 1 you asking about? E moan 22 MR. I.ACKY : The: discussion. 2 3 TDK WETNESS: Ordinary personal care. 2 4 MR. CRAWFORD: Oh, okay. 2 5 A. To my knowledge, t. hat first sentence is -- - NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000363 29 2 1 to my knowledge, C agree with it. I have to agree 2 with it. 1 don't know of anything contrary. 3 Q. (By Mr. (ar.ey) The second sentence? 4 A . I would, more or less, agree with the 5 second sentence. 6 Q . When you say "more or 1 es , " what par t. 7 would you not want to agree with wholeheartedly? 8 A. I would not myself -- "as with mineral 9 oil." We didn't have mineral oil. I'm not in a 10 position t.o say "as with." 11 Q. So, you've not comfortable - J 2 A. Ho, this is from ex- -USA. I would oay, ms 13 far as I am concerned, this kind of o statement 1 4 should be run by our medical people -- 15 Q. E understand. 1.6 A. for their assessment of this and not. 17 through me. 1 8 Q. Okay. Rut my question right now is whether 19 you agree with the statement as a factual statement 20 that Askeral can be handled in the same manner as 21 insulating mineral oil? 2 2 MR. CRAWFORD: If you know. 2 3 A. [f I - if I know. Now, as E ' 10 telling 2 4 you, I think 1 know where thin statement c.ame from; 2 5 and I think we'li run into this later on --- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000364 29 i t Q. That's rod I ly not my question, though, 2 Mr. Benignus. 3 . My simple question to you is whether 4 or not you agree with that statement: Yes or no? i> A. I don't, know "the exact same manner as 6 insulating mineral oil," because 1 don't handle -~ 7 Q . Okay. a A. - - mineral oil. 9 Q. Okay. And - 1 o A. I don't want to make an assumption on this 11 thing. 12 () . Okay. Now -- 13 A. You know what t have to say on this 1 4 s u b ) e c t.. i r> Q. Well, I'm t.ry.inq to find out what you have 16 to say on the subject. That's -- - that's what I'm 1 7 trying to find out. 18 And what 1 hear you saying iss You 19 would not make the statement that you can handLe 2 0 PCB * 8 just like mineral oil because, you don't, know 21 anything about mineral oil. 2 2 A. I can't, say I don't know anything about, 2.3 mineral oil, but t can say I'm not sufficiently 2 4 experienced or conversant, with mineral oil to really 2 5 make this statement. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000365 2 1 Q. Okay. Now, did 2 A. I would say this requires -- should have - 3 the okay Croa our medical people. That's wh.it I am 4 saying. r, Q Okay. And, ao, if Mr. Grosse didn't have 6 the approval oL! the medical people to make that 7 statement, on behalf of Mo naan to, he should have? 8 A, if e s, I would 3ay so. 9 Q. Okay. What -- one last question. About 10 what date was this "Care and Grooming of Askeral 1 1 Transformer Fluid," Document 2506 -- 12 A. That fits in this time frame of the mid 1 3 J 960 ' a . 1 4 Q. Okay. Let. me show you another document 15 called "When You Want Fire Safety Reliability, ] 6 Minimum Maintenance Specify Askeral Type 17 Transformers," Document 2522 through 2531. 18 A. Okay . 19 Q. Have you seen that document before? 20 A. I have seen this before. That fits -- ties 21 in with these same things. 2 2 Q. I see the - - you might hold that up. We've 2 3 got. the same - 2 4 A . Pixie girl. 2 5 Q. - pixie girl. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000366 /.v ^ 1 I A . That's what t called It. 2 Q . Okay . Is t. h a 1. another one of Mr. Grouse's 3 produc11ona ? 4 A . 11 i s b Q. Okay . And it. was produced in t h e in i d 6 1960's, too? 7 A. Yes. It. ties in with the other pixie girl 8 Q, Okay. So, any tio wu see that, we know 9 we're looking for Mr. Grasse, or we're looking at t 0 Mr. Grosso's work? 1 3 A . Yes. 1 2 Q. Okay. What was Mr. Gronse'ii background? 13 Was he a chemist or anything like that? 1 4 A. 1 don't know. I really don't know. lr> Q . Okay. 1 6 A. Could have been at one time. 17 Q. Lot me come over and look at a port.Urn - 18 A. He was a writer. 19 Q. Mas ho a pretty good writer? 2 0 A. He was a good writer, yes. 2 1 Q. Let mo look at a section of: this document 2 2 with you, on the Document No. 2532 page. And it's 2 3 entitled "An Hnd to Misconceptions." Do you see 2 4 that.? 2 5 A. Yes . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000367 I Q. And It indicated that there are some 2 engineers who have some misconceptions about. AskeraJ 3 fluid, doesn't It:? 4 A . This is the idea here, yea. 5 Q - No w, a g a i n - 6 A . They don't, understand it .... 7 Q Yeah a A . --- and, therefore, have m i a c.onc ept. i on s 9 a. Yes . Now, this Is a document, again. 1 0 prepared by Monsanto and provided to customers to t l encourage thorn to use Askeral transformers, correct? 1 2 A . Yes . 1 3 Q. Now, one of the misconceptions -- it starts l 4 oft! by giving in bold type what the misconceptions 1 ft are, correct? 16 A . Yes. 1 7 Q . And the first, misconception it says it.'s 10 going to deal with i 3 the misconception that Askeral 19 fluids are poison ness; is that, correct? 20 A. That's what it says. 21 Q. And it then goes on to say that Askeral 2 2 fluids have been manufactured, hand Led, and used 2 3 over 30 years without encountering toxic or ill 2 4 effects? 2 li A. That's what we've been reading. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000368 29 / I Q . Okay. And that means that they're - this 2 docuaent in tell inq Monsanto oust.omera that, nobody 3 has gotten sick enough to go to the doctor as a 4 result of working with PCH1s, correct? 5 MR. CRAWFORD? Well, is that what it 6 nays? 7 THK WITNESS? Well, it doesn't say 8 that in those words, no. 9 o. (Ry Mr. Lacey) That 's what i t means to however. i s n ' t it? 1 1 A . Well , it doesn't say that. Hut -- 1 2 Q Well , let me ask you about that . Didn't 1 3 y ou tell me before t. he lunch break that when a 14 document says there are no toxic or i l L effects, it 1 8 means no one has gotten sick enough from PCB's to 16 have to go to the doctor? 1 7 A. Did T say that? 18 Q. Yes, you told me that, didn't you, before 19 the lunch break? 20 A. I would say so, if that's what what 3 2l said. I don't recall exactly, but I'm not ~~ 2 2 Q. Well, isn't that, right, when you say - 2 3 A. If somebody is sick from it, they should go 2 4 a e e t. h v. doctor. 2 8 Q. And if somebody got. sick from PCH'a, t. hat. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000369 / ' >( I would ba <i toxic or III effect, wouldn't it? 2 A . Yes . 3 o. Okay. So, what that's saying is people 4 haven't gotten sick from PCB's, correct? h A . That is what this is saying, yes. 6 Q Okay. And that's said In order to overcome 7 this belief1 that Home people have that PCB'a or 8 A s k u r a 1 fluids are poisonness, right? 9 A . This is correct . 1.0 Q . Okay. And it then goes on to Indicate that 11. y o u c a n use Askeral fluids with the ordinary 12 personal precautions used with other inert 1 3 industrial materials, correct? 14 A . That's what It says. lf> Q What's an "inert, material"? 16 A . Not reactive. 17 Q Okay. The next, misconception that. it. 18 indicates it's going to deal with is the 19 misconception that Askeral transformers can explode, 20 correct? 21 A . That's what. it. says. 22 Q. Now, can Aakeral transformers explode? 2 3 A . Yes. 24 Q. Okay. Ho, that, misconception wasn't, really 2 8 a raiseonception at all; that was correct, they could NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000370 299 I e x pi od o right? 7 A . I ;} u a t told you they could - 3 Q. Okay . 4 A . -- explode as as a result of arc formed 5 ga 3 . 6 Q. Okay. So, i t. ' a not a misconception t hat, 7 A a k o v a l trans fornors can explode, 13 It? 8 A . I'd have to read this. 9 Askeral transformers can explode. 1 0 Q Night. l l A . They can explode. 1 2 Q Okay . 1 3 A . So, whether- it is a misconception that --14 Q It's a little bit confusing, Isn't it? 18 A . Yeah, 3 agree with you. And he is a 16 writer. 1 7 Q. Okay. And, yet, he's at. ill writinq on 18 behalf of Monsanto for people who might bo using I'Cn 19 products made by Monsanto? 7.0 A . At this point in t L in e . 71 Q. Yes . 2 2 A . Yes, h e was writing about that. 7 3 q. ns Mr. Crosse still with Monsanto; do you 7 4 know? 7 8 A . I don't, know. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000371 400 1 Q. How old a mo n wo a Mr. Grosso when you worn 2 working with him? 3 A. I -- I connoh answer this. He was one of 4 those, to me, sort of: an ageless person. [> I'm sorry, 1 can't answer it. 6 Q. Well, did you think ho was about your age. 7 younger, o J d e r ? 8 A . Ho was younger than I. 9 Q. Okay. Hut you don't know how much? t 0 A. No,Idon't. 1 1 Q. Pine. Now, let me show you another 12 document, 1489 through 149.3, and ask if: you have 1 3 seen that, document, before. l 4 A. t t may have boon in tho list of things we 1 i'i looked at. I have nothing to do with this. 16 Q. Okay, You've got nothing to do with that 1 7 at all? i a A. I have nothing to do with this. 19 Q. And you have no idea what time frame it 2 0 ight Cit into; is that, correct? 21 A. Weil, I haven't Looked at it. 2 2 Q. Well, okay. Go ahead and look at. it. T 2 3 mean, if you can heLp us identify its location in 24 time, I would appreciate that. help. 2 5 A. It says, "For tho past ton years. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.. WATER PCB-SD0000000372 30 ] I Monsanto 1 g half: century of: experience has boon 2 called on again." 3 1 would think this is running into t. h e 4 1960's. Now, that'a a quick guess. b Q. That's based on information in the document 6 and your knowledge oC Monsanto? 7 A. Thia ia an estimation on my part. That's 8 the best I can do with this. I'm Looking tor 9 somet.hing that might tie something in. to I would say It may be running up into 1 1 the mid bO's to '60, something like this. 1 2 Q . Okay. 13 A. Now, that is merely an estimate. 1 4 Q. Fine. That's more help and knowledge than lb we had before. 1 6 A. Wo LI -- 1 7 Q. Let me show you another document, 1504 18 through 1507 , and ask It you can tell ua .anything 19 about that document and, in particular. what. 2 0 period --21 A . DO you want this back? 2 2 Q. you can j us t lay that down there. If you 2 3 wish. 2 4 A . See , this is , again, functional fluids, 2 b Q . Am you able to help us at all with t he NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000373 n; I dating of that? 2 A . I ' 1 ] try . 3 We;]], here it. flays, "For 2 f years 4 Monsanto has supplied the dielectric." Well, 6 Monsanto acquired Swann in '35. Then that. 2.0 would 6 be - it. runs It up to what I've been talking about, 7 or about I960. That's about afl close aa 1 can get. 8 tor you. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. That, ia --- it's in the ballpark. Talks 1 l about things that would bn in that framework, as 1 2 best. T c a n i u d q e i t . 1.3 Q. All right. Tint me show you another 1 4 document called "Absorptive Refining of A u k e r a 1 155 Fluids," 2 253 through 2 2.64, and ask you if you can 1 6 help us date this document.. l 7 A. r would be looking for something like J 8 1967. Can we find that? 19 MR. CRAWFORD! David, just so the 20 record is clear. Hi nee he didn't author these, he is 21 just giving you estimates - and l think that's 2 2 pretty clear - the best he can do. And -- a n d 2 3 there may bn other exactr ins he can give you based 24 on the fact, he didn't, author them. 2 5 A. No, I didn't author this. I'm making a NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000374 30 3 1 gUH3 3 . 2 I would put this into the time frame 3 after 1965 and certainly prior to 1970. So, t'm 4 hitting the mid to latter- 1 96 0 ' a ; and I'm pretty 5 sure I -- I feel comfortable with that. 6 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Okay. 7 MR. CRAWFORD: As long as you fool 9 comfortable with it., Mr. Beni gnus; but just, don't, 9 guess on a document. If you feel comfortable -10 THR WITNESS: All I can do is guess on 1 l these things. I 2 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, we don't -13 THR WITNESS: I'm doing the best I 1 4 can, and 3 don't, think I'm misleading anybody. 13 MR. CRAWFORD: Okay. 1 6 THR WITNESS: T'm not trying to, 1 7 and - - I don't know. lfl Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Well, that - 19 A. k week is going to make no difference. A 2 0 month will make no .... J don't, know. 21 Does a year make much difference? 2 2 Don't, pin me down to the year. 2 3 Q. This document you were ius t looking at, 24 "The Absorptive Refining of Askeral Fluids," is a 2 5 piece of advertising literature for dielectric NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000375 .1 U 4 I pea's. correct? 2 A . Yes. Thai. t. v p e of thing, yen , c on ect . 3 Q. And you 1 ro the -- 4 A . And I 5 Q -- company rv.pr es ent.a t i ve on that.? 6 A . Yes. And I'm answering your quest Ion. V And what, did 1 t.ell you is t. h e t. i e 8 this? 9 Q . 19 6 5 to 197 0 ; is that, correct? 1 0 A . I put it in between there. I think it's 1 1 bef ore 1970. Let me think some more. 12 Q. Okay. 1 3 A . I would tend to pin that on - - now. see, l 4 he's getting me down to the exact year. ] b Let )o e pick '68. 16 Now, are you satisfied? 17 Q. I really wasn't, dissatisfied at all with l 8 your answers. Mr. Crawford Is the one who's -19 who's apparently not happy with them. 2 0 MR. CRAWPORD; Well, no. T just want 21 to be sure you're - you're fairly comfortable with 2 2 the accuracy of that. That's all I'm say i ng . r t ' a 23 jus t -- 24 () . (Hy Mr. I.acey) All we can do today - 2 8 A. r'm a bit uncomfortable now that C'm down NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000376 3U` 1 to 1968 perse. 2 Q. Rut. you're com for table between '6b and '70? 3 A. You bettor bel ieve it. 4 C> . All r i q h t. . A 1 J we're trying to do here is 5 get these documents dated. And it we can accomplish 6 that., why, we've accomplished something. 7 A. Recause otherwise you're going to have a a lot more work. 9 Q. That's right. And 3 don't know who to - X 0 who's going to help us do it. 11 A. hate this one t. he same way. X >. Q. Okay. Well, Let mis hand it to you ao we'll 13 know which one in "this one." l 4 We've (jot a document here called 1 E> "Inline Measurement of Klec.trical Properties" - - 16 A . Right. 1 7 Q. "For Flowing Dielectrics," Document 18 O/FF-12, No. 1529 through 1536. 1 9 A. Yeah. 3 hope 3 find some sort, of a code to 20 thia. Sa, this has the exact same lettering as that 21 other one. And 3'ut reading 1068. Here again, I 2 2 don't know does that mean 1968. Rut I would be 2 3 comfortable with this document, in the same, time 2 4 frame a 3 X gave you for that other document. 2 5 Q . Okay. NELLMCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000377 j06 I A . And -- 30, mark It a c r o r d l n g l y . 2 Wher e .i n the ot her one? 3 Oh, that, yes, those two. One i. g the 4 absorption equipment., and the other one is t. he way 5 you measure what that absorption equipment has 6 accomplished. So, the two go hand in hand. 7 Q. Okay. Let me show you another document 8 called "Toxicology and Safe Handling of Monsanto 9 Aerelor Chlorinated Diphenyl," Document 18731 1 0 through 1R737 , and ask if: you can give me a date on l 1 th.it document. 12 Have you ever seen that one before? 13 A. E T. recognlze things in here that we 1 4 printed before. Hut. whether 1 saw this, I'm trying 15 to - 16 Q. I've looked for - 17 A. E would -- I'd almost say "no." 1 8 Q . So, t. hat one may be after your retirement? 19 A. I would have to say "no." 20 Q. It's not after your retirement? 2 X A. I recognize things in there - 2 2 Q. Okay. 2 3 A. -- but C have not see n t h i s . 24 Q. So, you don't have any idea to help us out. 2 5 on that one? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000378 307 I A . [ cannot pin p o i n t that one. 2 Q. Okay. 3 Q. Can you te 1 ] me what. " PydrauJ " was? 4 A. "Pydraul" was a trade name assigned to f) fluids for use w.it. h, say, things like met. a] die 6 casting machines. It's a hydraulic fluid. 7 "Fydraul " i s <t hydraulic fluid. 8 Q. Did it contain PCH's? 9 A. Not all Pydraul contained PCB's. Some l 0 Pydraul may have contained PCB. 1 ] Q. And you really don't know for sure one way i2 or the other about which ones did and which ones 1 3 didn't? 14 A. No, I wouldn't. ~- I was not in that area. l s Q. Did - - when you were w or k i n g in the 1 6 inorganic area, did you have anything to do with the t 7 PCB's that went into things like hydraulic fluids? 18 A. PCH was used at that point in time as a 19 hydraulic fluid; yes, it was. 2 0 Q. While you were in that area? 21 A. This ig right. 2 2 Q . Did you have anything to do with the. I'CH ' a 2 3 used as hydraulic fluid while you were in the 2 4 inorganic area? 2 f> A . Not to select - - not. to specify, hut merely NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.. WATER PCB-SD0000000379 10B I to acknow th.it PC!R fluid was so In use. That 2 wan the extent, of it.. 3 Q. When you say "acknowledge that, it was ho in 4 use," you mean you could - - f'i A . I knew of it. 6 Q. -- just toll us that happened? 7 A. 1 knew of it. 8 Q. Okay. Did you ever do any work on 9 literature for the advertiainq of the Pydraul 10 fluids? 1 1 A . No. 12 Q. Who in that, area was responsible for that? 13 A. Well, the product manager of that area 1 4 would have been George - 1 5 Do you want the job position? What - - 1 f. what, are you asking for? t 7 Q. Well, hopefully somebody you can tell us 1 8 about who might, be able to do for ua with regard to 19 the hydraulic fluid materials what you've done for 20 ua with regard to the dielectric --- dielectric 21 materials, help us identify documents and the dates 2 2 on which they were published. 2 3 A. Thi3, now, different than in my case. Here 2 4 you're talking t.o one individual, which simplifies 2 5 things. You're now g e 11 i n g into an area where there NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000380 109 I wore aevfird L i. ml i v i. dua L 3 Involved, I ' in talking 2 about an organization. And perhaps this question 3 that you raised with me had better be asked more 4 specifically from someone in that, area rather- than 5 mys e t f . 6 {). So, you can't even - 7 A. It you understand what I'm trying to tell 9 you. 9 Q. Yeah. I'm just trying to find out if you 10 can even identify somebody that was in that area who 1 1 might be able t.o help us out., or we're back to 12 looking at the phone book to try to find somebody to 1 3 t. a 1 k to. 1 4 A . 7 don't, know who t. o name. I - - I a in - - I l r> know people in that area. 1.6 Q. Can you tell me some of the people that 17 were In that area? 1 0 A. George Huchanan was the product manager. 19 Now, he's retired, George Huchanan. 2 0 Q. Do you know where Mr. Huchanan lives now? 21 A, yeah. 2 2 (2 . Where does he Jive? 21 A. He lives in -- see, now you're going to say 24 Paul Men i gnus gave you that. name. 2 5 MR. CRAWFORD: Go ahead. He's NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000381 3i o I on titled, to L t . 2 THE WITNESSs I think he is entitled 3 to this. 4 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, he is. 5 THE WITNESS: T. really do. 6 A . He live;a in Green Valley, Arizona. 7 THE WITNESS: Can you Leave your B fingers still a minute? 9 Q (By Mr. Lacey) She's got to keep her 10 finqers going. That's her obligation. l l You go ahead and toll us. It Isn't 12 going to hurt anything if her fingers are going. n MR. CRAWFORD: Well -- well, just 1 4 answer -- just answer his question because we've got. 15 a lot of 16 A . You asked where does he live. Green 17 V a L Ley, Ar Uona . 10 MR. CRAWFORD: Okay. That's good. 19 Q (By Mr. Lacey) Do you know whereabouts in 2 0 Green Valley? 2 1 A. (No response) 2 2 Q. I thought, maybe that's what you were going 2 3 to try to toll us, If you h a p pn ed to know. 2.4 A . oh, X(*ii!io me. You think Green Valley is a 2 5 rlvor valley. There are no great rivers out there NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000382 31 1 I except the dry Colorado River. 2 Q. That's - that's t. h! name of a town in 3 Arizona? 4 A . That's the name of a town. 5 Q. Okay. fi A. Green Valley, Arizona. 7 Q. All right. 8 A. You can go from there. 9 Q. Okay. Can you tell me what "Therminol" is? 10 A. Yes. Therminol relates to this same group l l that wo'i'e talking about, the Pydrauls; the 1 2 Therninola; Skyclraul, which isn't. PCB. And l 3 "Therminol" is a name, as it implies, heat, heat 1 4 transfer fluid. i r> Q. Who could help us date these documents that, 16 we have that relate to Therminol? Would 1 7 Mr. Buchanan be the person there, too? 18 A. (Witness nods head) 19 Q, You need to answer verbally. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay . ` 2 2 A. He should be. 2 3 Q . All right. Now, what, about. - - we have some 2 4 documents hero that relate to coatings and 2ui plasticizers and things like that, NELL MCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000383 3 ) ?. 1 Who would bo a person who could he l p 2 us w i t li regard to those documents? 1 A. I have thought of I: h i a , th.it you would ask 4 this, also. 1 'v o hern trying to think. And if ] r> knew more specifically, r would tell you, believe 6 me . 7 Q. C e r t. a i n 1 y . 8 A . I just don' t . 9 Q. That would n o t. be in Mr . Buchanan's area? 10 A . No, that wouId not have been at this time 3 1 n his area; this is correct. l 2 Q And you don ' t have a n y idea of who might 1 3 have been involved with that particular area? 14 A. really don't know who to nominate. J 5> Q. Okay. Let. me -- I'm trying to get through l 6 all of these various bulletins we've (jot and make 3 7 sure we've got everything covered here;. 10 A. Isn't it awful? 19 Q. There's a lot of them, aren't there? A 20 fair amount of 21 A . It's - - it's a 1 c> t. of - 2 2 Q. W o had a fair amount of: literature that 2 3 Monsanto provided to various exist outers dealing with 7.4 POR'3 . 2 b A. Yes, this is correct. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.. WATER PCB-SD0000000384 1)2 1 Q . ['vi! (jot a o m (5 m o r o h e r e that - - i t in e 2 see. I'm not. qnit.e mire how these' fit in. 3 Thorn's a documen t he r e c,il 1d t h <* 4 "Aroclor Polychlorinated Polyphftny1 a," Technical 5 Rul. lot in 0-FP/l, Document SCM 0 18626 through 18661. 6 l.et me ask you to take a look at that 7 and 3oo IE you can provide me any information about a that, document. 9 A. Now, incident.ally, t.bin haa that, same 10 this thing, which we thought might be an attachment 11 earlier - l 2 Q. Right. 1 3 A . ...... and were somewhat, confused about, t 4 whether somebody t a o k e d it on there. 1 h This, .1 would say .... here, this says, 16 "Pot* norii information, additional literature, 17 Askeral Inspection and Maintenance Guide," which we 18 have already time framed between 1962, at the start 19 and -- I don't know when the last, revision was 20 made. This la - would have to be put into the 21 framework of the 1960's. 2 2 Q. Okay. 2 3 A. That is - 2 4 Q. This has, T note, in it tables like we saw 2 6 before in that -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000385 31 4 I A . It d(1 o eoa3 . 2 Q . - - P -1 1 fi and OF-] J 5 . 3 A. Yea. 4 Q. Would t hat have been a document wi l.h the 5 tables In It that you would have reviewed tor 6 accuracy before it wt'nt out? 7 A. Those tables? At aoma point in time 8 whether for this particular i s n u e, I do not. know. 9 Q . I sen. 1 0 A. See, every time a - one of these things l l issued, r wasn't sitting there waiting for It. 1 2 (). 1 understand. l 3 A. I would hope so. 1 4 Q. That would almost be a full-time job, to 15 sit there and wait for aLi these, wouldn't it? 1 6 A. It would. 1 7 Q. Let. me show you anothosr document which 18 appears to bo just another copy of that -- but I 1 9 want you to look and make sure - also labeled the 20 "Here lor Polychlorinated Polypheny Is," Technical 21 Pullet in O-FF/1, 132 through 1 l> 7 , and ask if that's 2 2, simply a copy of the other document you just looked 2 3 a l. . 2 A A. It appears to me to be exactly that. Now, 7.5 it has this number back hern. Have you looked at NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000386 21 1 that number? 2 Q. Which number is that? 3 K. This number. 4 Q. Where it. says " 0 4 (> 6 - f> " ? 5 A . Y o .i h , 6 Q. Let. me see the - - 7 A . I think that's the same as that. 8 Q- Let. me see if that's the same number on the 9 other one. 1 0 MR. CRAWFORD: (Indicating) ll Q (By Mr. Lacey) Does it have it seems to 1 2 be even the same little number there. 1.3 A . 1 think It's just another -- 1 4 Q Another copy of t.he same one? 15 A . - copy. 1 6 I think no. 17 Q. Let me show you another document, also 1 8 tabled the "Aerclor Polychlorinated Polypheny 1o. " 19 Here, instead ot.` giving the - - It's got the same 2 0 title; but i nstcad of giving a list of the series, 21 et cetera, it just says "Dielectric for Capacitors 2 2 and Transformers . " Then it. says Technical nul liter) 23 0/PF/R, which would indicate it i.3 a revision? 24 A . That's a revision of something. 2 5 Q . This is Document 158 through 179, and f NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000387 3l6 I would aak you If that appears to be a revision of 2 th two document. 3 we just previously discussed? 3 MR. CRAWFORD: Here. 4 A. 1 have, evidence here that, this would, no 5 doubt, put thia Into the time frame of this 11-71 6 t h a t. 1 see back here. 7 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Okay. H MR. CRAWFORD: Well, Mr. Benignus, 9 you you're baninq that strictly on this page that 1 0 has the district office -- sales office division a; l l i.g that correct? 1 2 THK WITNESS : Well, no. No, it 1.3 i s n ' t. i ' m looking a t this number. which I ' m not 1 4 sure: 3 know what. it. means. Hut. I'm looking at that. 15 number. b u t I'm 1 o o k i. n g at somothing else I saw. ] 6 MR. CRAWFORD: Okay. l 7 THE WITNESS: I'm only trying to date ] 8 this. 19 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) That's really what. I've 2 0 asked you to do. 2 1 And you would date it i n t. h e '71 time 2 2 f rame? 2 3 A. Yes. Do you want to know why? '2 4 Q. Sure. 2 b A. Of course, you would. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000388 117 1 Q. E ' vu been tryimj to -ask dll those questions 2 today. 3 A . Let me redd. It. mentions Bill Pappdqj'orqe, 4 his address, 800 North Lindburgh, St. Louis, S Missouri, Ar ea Code - - 1 mean ZIP Code 63116. 6 okay. 7 Q . Ft o - 8 A . L'appdijeorqe arrived. 9 Q. Yes. Now, that is a revision of the l 0 previous document. Is it not? 1 1 A . Of this? 12 Q. Yes. 1 3 A . (No response) 14 Q . You ' ll note the number O-FF on there. Look 1 5 a t. the front. number. That appears to be a revis ion 16 o e that prior document; is that correct? J 7 A . Bxcuse - excuse me? 18 Q. Yos . Let mo - I want to makti sure -19 A . Oh , I 8 e e what you're saying. 2 0 That ' 3 the way it Looks to me. 21 Q. And the reason this one just, talks about 2 2 dielectrics Cor capacitors and transformers where 23 the prior- versions of the aame titled document, 24 talked about all these other uses Is because 2 S Monsanto has now stopped selling PCH's for any use NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.. WATER PCB-SD0000000389 3ia 1 except dielectric; isn't that correct? 2 A . Yea, air. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A , Correct. 5 Q . Now, let me have e;ac.h one of those back for a a moment, if could. 7 Did you have any involvement with 8 either of those documents, to your knowledge? 9 A. No, .1 did not. I've only been able to time LO frame them for you. 1 1 Q. Okay. Now, each one of these documents has l 2 in it a section on dermatology and toxicology and 1 3 safe handling. la that something that would, again, l 4 go back to the* modi cal department Cor explanation? 1 it A. It. should. 1 6 Q. Okay. They would be the people to talk to l 7 about that? 18 A . Yes . 19 Q All right. 20 A . And you've got that. timed correctly. 21 Q. Okay. And we would 3 till be -2.2 A . Sure have. 2 3 Q. talking about Dr,, Firamet Kelly - -24 A . Yes. 2t> Q. .... a 3 l. h e person in the medical depart.went? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000390 3 l9 I A . Yes. 2 Q. Was he there all the way up u n t. j J the time .1 that you retired? 4 A . Yea . 5 Q Okay. throughout - - 6 A . Except during the war years, I happen to 7 know . a Q . What, was he doing during the war years? 9 A . Well, he'a a medical doctor. 1 0 Q In the service? 1l A . Yes . 1 2 Q Who was performing the functions an medical l 3 director for Monsanto during the World War El years? 1 4 A . 3 do not know. 2 do not. know. I can't l !5 answer that. 1 6 Q. Okay. Let me turn your attention to some l 7 other documents I think will be easier maybe to 1 fl understand; at least they are for me, and 2 hope 19 they will be for you. 2 0 X want to show you a document, called 2 t the "Reference Bulletin on Aroclor Fluids Cor the 2 2 Transformer Industry," dated April 13th, 19S4, 2.3 Document 17 8.3 through 17 9.3. 24 Have you seen that document, before? 2`5 A. Yes, T'vo seen that. I saw that last NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000391 .1 2 0 t night, Ute Last night. 2 Q. Who wrote that, d o c u in e n t. ? 3 A. I did. This is dated 1904. 4 Q. Okay . And - and w h a t. was the puj pose - 5 A . C t ' s diitert . 6 Q. y fin. What's the exact -7 A . t ' 3 got my initial, and you're asking me? 8 Q Wha t. 'n the exact date there on i t? 9 don't have a copy in front of mo. I 1 0 gave #y copy to you, t l A . The exact date i. s 4-13-04. 1 2 Q . That would be April 13th, 19 0 4? 13 A . Correct. 14 Q. Now, w h a t. was your purpose in writing that. 10 document ? 16 A. This ia an in-house, one might, a ay, within l 7 company, piece of information, brochure, that was 10 aimed at telling people in our sales department, that 19 there are those different materials that they may 2 0 hear. This is t. he essential part, of this thing. 21 And you'll, see here it identifies a whole list, of compounds. It's nice that, you have 2 3 this, isn't it? I. does that accurately and gives 2 4 their composition. 2 0 Q. This wag written as a reference book for NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000392 3 ?. 1 1 other Monsanto people, so to apeak? 2 A. Jen, ihat'a all it. is. 3 And It Lists tradu names by various 4 trariflforser Manufacturers, what their given trade ') name is. Home of these are capacitor -- well, it 6 does say "capacitor" here. Others says 7 "transformer." Bo that the salesmen will have heard 8 of this, that he's not completely oblivious to 9 this. 1 0 it's not intended for anything !. I external. 1 2 Q. Hut it's information so he can answer 13 guestions that do come from customers, correct? 1 4 A. 1 wouldn't. all right. If you want -- 1 IS don't know whether we expect this. 1 6 Q. Who asked you to write that? l 7 A. Who asked me to write this? 18 Q. yes . 19 A. in 1 9 f> 4 . This could have been a man in the 20 position that I referred to who was -- let's say the 21 project -- the product manager might, have auked 2 2 this, might have asked this. 2 3 q . no you know why you were selected to do it.? 24 A. I was about the most Logical one to 2 5 identify these ~~ this whole list, of product names NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000393 3 ' '/ I that - - Pyranol - that'a the G.F.. names. I 2 would -- I would be the logical place to go for .3 this. 4 Q. You had more knowledge about these sorts of 5 things-6 A. Yeah. 7 Q. than anybody else - 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q . -- In Monsanto? 1 0 A. Yeah. l l Q. tot me - 1 2 A. That would .... that would have been it. And l 3 E wrote Lt as an in-house thing. 1 4 Q. It explains the basic things about, how 15 transformers work and what they're used for, 16 correct? 17 A. I would suppose, yes. Just general IB information. This isn't training anybody. 19 Q. Well, would this be the sort of document 20 that a salesman might keep handy so if he has a 21 question come in over the phone, he could flip t.o It. 2 2 and be able to find the necessary information? 2 3 A . No, 1 don't, think so. No. Unless if he is 2 4 g e 11: L n g an inquiry from someone, like, for instance, 2 5 Ci . F. . Pyranol 1 499. And this in a name thi3 in NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000394 323 1 tho trade name, common -- Ln common use at G.K. To 2 ua -- to him, it would be A roc: lor - 1240, wait it? 3 book and see. 4 Q . Okay . I.e t. ' 3 a ee. . 5 A. I can't remember. Pyranol 1499? 6 Q. See if it lists 14. 7 A. Tt would bo close to it. 0 Q . 1 2 4 2 , it aaya hero. 9 A. Well, I wag weighings la Lt 124 2 or 1240? 1 0 Q. Says here it's 1242. L l A. Yes, this La correct. 1 2 See, even now, I can't remember that; l 1 and how could a salesman? That's its purpose. 1 4 Q. Okay. Now, t. his document described the lr> different types oC transformers that could bn used, 16 did it not? it compared dry t.rans f orner a to 17 oil-filled to PCB-filled transformers? 1 B A. I don't, remember that it docs, but if you 19 say it's -- that's written in there. 20 Q. Let. me .... let me look at it with you for a 2 1 minute. 22 A . All right, 2 3 Q. bo t mo just - 2 4 A . Well, this in the types of insulation. 2 5 Q . Yeah. Tt - - and Lt (joes through to NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000395 321 I actud L ly, In the process of discusslncj tliliujH, talk 2 about the sales and application pact, tire for- PCH 3 tranifornera or As kora! trails fornicrs - 4 A . 11 h - h u h . 5 Q . - - correct? 6 A . 11 h - h u h . 7 Q. And talks about the different n characteristics of how transf oruers are selected; 9 talks about dry-type units? l o A. Dry -- yes, where one would have an open 11 dry -- this shows a the different kinds of 1 2 t. r a n f o r in e r s , open dry. 1 3 Q. R it; lit. AnaLyzes the various 1 4 character istics of trans formers t.hat could be used l 5 indoors? 16 A . 11 h - h u h . 1 7 Q. Makes comparisons between liquid and dry 18 transformers and all sorts of different 19 characteristics, correct V 2 0 A. Yes. 2 1 Q. Talks about even how much they - how much 2 2 noise they tjive off and how much they vibrato? 2 3 A. Yeah . 2 4 Q. Kxpluins the developments that are taking 2 8 place in dry transformers that may improve their NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000396 32` 1 characteristics, cor feet? 2 A. Well, you're rearting I go along with 3 what you're saying on that. Yeah, Improvements in 4 continence and things 5 Q. Talks about the development of this class R 6 insulation material? 7 A . Yes . 8 Q. And I guess what I'm trying to figure out 9 here is whether the purpose of all of that was to 1 0 allow a fliilessan 1 1 A. No. Now that we've gone through this, no. \ 2 Q. Well, let me finish my question. ] 3 A . All right.. 1 4 Q. I'm trying to find out whet, her the purpose 15 of this was to sufficiently educate Monsanto 1 6 salesmen so that they would know what, the potential l 7 benefits of Askera l transformers are vis-a-vis i a competition like mineral-oil-filled transformers or 19 dry-type transformers? 20 A. No. No. 21 Q. Well, why does it give the salesman so much 2 2 information about the dry transformers - 2 3 A. R x c. u 3 e me. When 3 said "to the salesman," 2 4 l was looking at. this list of product names. 2 5 Now, that would be helpful to a NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000397 .1 /.b I aalflaman calling on one of: theae companies, say the 2 purchasing agent.. Whereas to the salesman it's 3 Aroclor 1242 and here he runs Into PyranoL 1499 that 4 he never heard of before, this correlates that. Now 5 that's what E Looked at. 6 That would be of interest. This is an 7 in-house thing. Above and beyond that, anything E a said is extraneous. 9 Q. Wei), why did you write all the rest of 10 this stuff about dry transformers and benefits, 11 vibration, noise, insulating materials, et cetera? l 2 A. Well, E knew about this and this was 13 extracted from the literature and so forth and 1 14 just put it together maybe -- 15 Q. Hut but for what purpose? 16 A. We weren't making transformers; we weren't 1 7 designing transformers; we were not selling 18 transformers. 19 Q. You did it. -just to be doing it? 20 A. That's about --- as I told you -- as I see 21 this, the most significant, part, of that, is to list 22 the product nomenclature. That - - that is it. 2 3 Maybe you'll say I didn't have much 24 more to do. E don't know. 2 5 q . well, I -- 1 guess I'm just looking here. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.. WATER PCB-SD0000000398 J^7 1 A. I'm passing along things that r knew and 2 had read about tranafoniera and passed it. into the 3 product; group. 4 We were selling dielectrics t. o people 5 who built designed and built transformers, and I 6 passed this -- it's a general information bulletin. 7 This is what it is, There's no specific goal, 8 purpose, and so forth. It is a matter of general 9 information. 1 0 Q. Okay . X X A. That'3 it, 1 2 Q. For salesmen? 1.1 A. No. Now that t'vo gone through this thing, 1 4 as I told you, for salesmen, I can see that this l IS product nomenclature could bo of interest. Hut that 16 is of interest, also, to the clerk who fills orders 1 7 that these namos can come in. It's of interest to 18 people in this product group. It's general 19 information. 20 Q. Well, the document, is approximately 11 21 pagns long. And the list of nomenclature, what the 2 2 G.E. name is versus the Monsanto name and so forth, 2 3 takes the -- a page and a half. 24 A. Right. 2f t>. What was the other nine and a half pages NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC, WATER PCB-SD0000000399 wo I for? 2 A . General information. 3 Q. For anybody's} benefit? 4 A. Por anybody. 5 Q. And who would it be within Honadn to who 6 would have one of these reference bulletins for 7 t h o i r benefit? a A. I would say the product manager and people 9 in -- in -- associated with him. That's its 1 0 purpose. u Q. And would that, include the salespeople, t 2 t o o, or not? ) 3 A . No. No. 1 4 Q. Okay. I,et me show you anotherdocument, l 5 titled "The Proper Handling of Aroclor and their 16 mixtures in the Electrical Industry," Document. 19 6 7 17 through 2051. 1 8 A. I'm very familiar with that.. 19 Q. Okay. How are you familiar with that? 2 0 A. Has my name on it. 2 1 Q. Okay. Did you write it? 2 2 A . I wrote it. 2 3 Q. And w h at date did you w r i t e it? 2 4 A. 12-1-54. 2 5 Q. December 1st, 1954? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000400 M9 I A . Correct:. 2 Q. You wrote that, in the name year that you :i wrote this reference bulletin on A roc lor fluid:?, 4 right? 5 A . Okay. 6 O . Is that accurate? 7 A. Well, It says go, doesn't it? 8 Q. J believe 9 A. Yea. 1 0 Q . - it. doefl. l 1. A. Yea. 1 2 Q. Now, what was the purpose of writing this l :l document on the proper handling of Aroclors and J. 4 their mixtures in the Klee t.rical Industry? l 5 A. The purpose of this was to inform our 16 customern of the specifications of all t. hese - - call 1 7 them " P C 8 ' a." And you'll note in here all the test J 8 procedures, as used at - - and document.ed at t.he 19 American Standards -- the ASTM. 20 So, it. gives all of that in - - in 2.1 great detail. For instance, here it gives great 2 2 detail of the procedure t. hat. is used in our own 2 3 laboratories, and it ijives detail of: the procedures 24 documented at. ASTM out. in the industry. And it. goes ?.ri Into t h i s detail, also, on a a in p l i ng methods. Then NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000401 3.iO 1 it (joea into auc h things as on loading of tank cars. 2 Now, T remember this. It was sort, of 3 embarrassing. A man would come and buy his Hirst 4 tank car, and it. would be shipped. And he would 5 have gone to the effort of buiLding an unloading 6 dock to receive this thing. And he built this 7 dock -- would have built it to unload from the 8 bottom, where tank cars usually do unload. 9 Q. And wouldn't even know enough to know how 1 0 to unload the car? 1 1 A. Wouldn't, know how to unload the car. Ours 1 2. unload through the top. Things like this. They 1 3 were intended, in detail, for our customers -l 4 Q. Okay, Ho - 1 5 A. -- of which there weren't many. Q. Okay. So, you'd provide a document Like 1 7 that to General Electric and a document t.o 18 Westinghouse and a document to Allis -Chalmera - 1 9 A. Exactly. 2 0 Q. -- and those sorts of people? 2.1 A. Exact 1y. 2 2 Q. I-et. me look at that document with you for a 2 3 little bit just to go over the sorts of things that 2 4 are in it.. It's qot in here a index or table of 23 o ontonts -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.. WATER PCB-SD0000000402 33 1 1 A . y o 3. 2 Q. - - at the. f i rfl t., doesn't it? 3 A . fJh - h it h . 4 (1. And there it deals with a lot. of things 5 about what it's going to cover. For example, it has 6 a chapter on unloading tank cars? 7 A. Right. 1 saw that here somewhere, the tank 8 c.ar unloading. All right. 9 Q. rt has a chapter on storage tanks? 1 0 A. Right. We disclosed the kind of storage l 1 tanks we used. 1 2 Q. Has a chapter on gas -- gasketing and pump 13 pack i n g ? 14 A. Packing, right. 15 Q. Has an entire chapter on how to do sample? 1 6 A . Right. 1 7 Q. An entire chapter on how to do laboratory 18 analysis? 19 A. Correct. 2 0 Q. A chapter on the actual test, procedures? 21 A. Right. 2 2 Q. A chapter on typical properties? 2 3 A. Correct. 2 4 Q. A chapter on earth treatment of the 2 5 iroc lot's .ind t hn i r mixtures? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000403 I A . Right. 2 Q. And a chapter on dermatology and 3 toxicology? 4 A . Yes . 5 Q. Okay. Now, did you writ, e each one of these 6 chapters yourself; or did you get any help on this 7 from somebody else? 8 A . Most of it, T wrote by myself. 9 Well, no. Wait, a minute. 1 would 10 have to find out, "Now, what Is it the design and l 1 the construction of the storage tank?" 1 wouldn't l 2 know tills offhand. 13 Q Okay . ] 4 A . I had t.o go elsewhere to get t.his. You can l 5 go down the line. L was in an office. I J 6 accumulated this information from other people, to 17 answer your question. 1 8 Q. Okay. The chapter on tank cars, for 19 example -- 20 A . Uh huh . 21 Q. start.a off and it's got some very 2 2 specific directions on what to do, doesn't it? 2 3 A . 1 would think so. 2 4 Q. E mean, for example, it explains there are 2 b either two or three -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.. WATER PCB-SD0000000404 333 I A. Vea. 2 Q. -- connections on l. he top of the car 3 A. Right. 4 Q. -- and exactly what size they are? 5 A. r t ' 3 very d fc a l L e d , right, 6 Q . Exactly what pressures to use? 7 A. And that information was given to me from 8 our plant, 9 Q. Right. Rven even goes to the point of l 0 explaining that the car has got to be level and the 1 1 brakes have got. to be stst before you can unload it? 12 A. We know this. 13 Q. Okay. So, it's very detailed with regard l 4 to that? IS A. It ' s very detailed. 16 Q. All right. And that same sort of detail 1 7 follows through that whole chapter, basically a 1 8 step-by-step how to do it? 19 A. Right. And that .... 1 obtained from our 20 plant. 21 Q. Right.. When we come to storage tanks - - 2 2 A . Same thing. 2 3 Q. Same thing, very detailed description of 24 storage tanks, exactly how they should be built, 7S exactly what, materials to use and everything. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000405 I correct? 2 A. Right. 3 Q. Talks -even has drawinqs on how to do it. 4 and the exact sixes of the nozzles, doesn't it? 5 A. It sure does. 6 Q. Okay. When we get to the chapter on 7 gasketing and pmp packing, it describes - 0 A. As pec l Cic . 9 Q. -- specific types of connections, gives the l 0 part number and the company you can get it from? 1 1 A . That ' s the purpose o f t his l 2 Q . Okay. The chapter o n the sampling methods. 1 3 again , is very s pec i f i c on how you do it, is it not? l 4 A. That's correct. 1 5 t> . Explains what you can do, the particular 16 type of sample bottle, how --- what size It is, what J 7 color it is and everything, doesn't it? 18 A. That'3 correct. 19 Q. Okay. When you start talking about 2 0 laboratory analysis, again, you have a great deal of 21 detail on exactly what to do, don't you? 2 2 A, This is right. 2 3 Q, Explains the size bottle to use and what 2 4 flask and what beaker and oxactLy what methods are 25 to be used, correct? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000406 .1 1 Tj I A. Right. And that wad obtained from our 2 laboratory es. 3 Q. Right.. Then it talks about the actual test 4 procedures. These are specific procedures to make 5 sure that, the electrical properties have been 6 properly maintained? 7 A. This is correct. 8 Q. Okay. And it has great detail on those 9 test, procedures; is that correct? l 0 A. That's correct. * 1 1 Q. K v e n has in here some points, in capital 12 tetters, "Caution," you know, "Don't touch the J 3 elesctrodf.s with your hands," that sort of thing? l 4 A. That would contaminate them. 1 5 Q. Okay. Gives the details on the specific 16 apparatus to be used, like a certain oscilloscope, 1 7 particular model number and everything, light.? L 8 A. (No response) 19 Q. Ia that correct.? 2 0 k. Yes, that's correct. 21 Q. Talks about specific safety in operating 2 2 controls on certain equipment that are used, 2 3 explains exac11y the order to go and which button to 24 pU3h and when, correct? 2 3 A. That's in the laboratory, yes. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000407 .1 ti I Q. Very data Lind on that? 2 A. Yes. 3 MR. ('RAW FORD s Say, David, about, ready 4 Cor a break? 5 MR, LACKY : Why don't you .let me 6 finish -7 MR. CRAWFORDt All right,. 8 MR. LACKY; - this document right 9 here? ] 0 Q. (Ry Mr. Lacey) In fact, in talking about l 1 the test procedures here on Page 47, Document 1 2 No. 2017, it. expresses you should -- "Danger. Make 13 sure to check knob is in the check position 14 otherwise painful shock will result"? 15 A, That's right. 1 6 Q. Just down to the point of. exactl y where to 17 set the particular controls at any point In the 1 8 testing, right? 19 A. That's cor roc t. 2 0 THB REPORTER I "Twenty" or 21 "twenty-seven" seventeen? 2 2 MR. I.ACF. Y : 20 17. 23 Q. (Ry Mr. Lacey) Talks at another point, on 2 4 Page 48, No. 2018, another caution; talks about, the 2 5 500 volt D.C. charge and the shock hazard that NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000408 :s i v I exists In handling the apparatus, correct? 2 A . That's correct.. 3 Q. . The next page. It observes again, 4 underlined, the possibility of painful shock, 5 doesn't It? 6 A, If you get a jolt of 500 volts 7 Q . you'll know it, won't you? 0 A. - you'll know it. 9 Q. Okay. In fact, that chapter on the teat 10 procedures goes on and on and on, doesn't it? It's 1 1 a pretty long chapter? 1 2 A. This was the area in which 1 operated. l 3 I've been trying to get that across to you. 1 4 Q. Okay. Then you had 15 A. Now you're learning. 1 6 Q. Then you had a chapter on the typical l 7 properties of Aroclors, correct? 10 A. Yes. 19 Q. And you gave the 2 0 A. Yes. 21 Q. -- the trade names and what they were made 2 2 up of? 2.3 A. And the specifications. 2 4 Q. And you have specifications for each 21> Aroclor? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000409 .i t) I A . That's correct. 2 Q. All r i qht. , And that has all sorts of 3 data LI in there, all the constants that go with it? 4 A. And t. h i fl is the same data that is 5 documented at the American Society for Testing and 6 Mat erials find, also, internationally. 7 Q. Then we have the chapter on earth a treatment .... 9 A. Yes. ) 0 Q. .... and it describes specifically how you 11 C Oil Id filter Aroclors through s pec la l earth to take 1 2 ou t impurities, correct? 13 A . This Is correct, 1 4 Q. Defines the specific places you could get 15 t h e materials and alL of what it takes to order 1 t 1.6 and do it, correct? l 7 A . This Is correct. 1 fl Q. Okay. Then we come to the chapter on 19 dermatology and toxicology. Now, did you write that 2 0 chapter? 21 A. Well, this was qiven to me from the medical 2 2 department. '?. 3 Q . 1 s e e . 2 4 A. 1 did not --- 1 don't know what you mean by 2 5 "write it." NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000410 .) -i I Did T copy it down; did I Hot' mutate 2 this; did 3 decide what, to p\it. here? 3 No . 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. I received this from the medical fi department. r know exactly w It a t La in here, and 7 thin i3 where it came from. 8 Q . Okay. Well , lot me atop -9 A . And -- oh. I'm sorry. to Q I * m sorry. Go ahead. You can tell ae 1 1 about the medical. U A . Weil --1 3 fi. I've got. 14 A . Well, here again, in this area. talk t. 15 modica l people. 1 6 Q Okay , l 7 A. I -- t gave what I received. ] a Q. Now, in the other chapters, for example, 19 how to unload a tank car, you got that from your 20 plant people, correct? 2 1 k. Yea, [ did, 2 2 Q. And it gave stop by step what, to do -just, 2 3 the way your plant people did it, correct? 2 4 A . This is correct. 2 5 Q. And on the storage tanka, you got the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000411 -i t u 1 Lnliovidt Lon there Prom your plant people and gave 2 step by step ;just. how to hand] e a storage tank, .3 correct? 4 A . This if. right.. 5 Q. And on the section about laboratory 6 procedures, that, camo step by step from 7 A . We i l, we went through the whole t h L n g . 8 Q Yes. 9 A . We're right on the entire thing there 10 Q . Yes . 1 1 A . -- that you're talking about. l 2 Q- Weil, let mo ask my question. 1 3 Now, on the laboratory procedures, you L 4 went step by step just the way Monsanto did It in 15 the laboratory, correct? 16 A. And as it was done by others in the field, 1 7 industry, yes. 18 Q. Okay. The sane thing with filtering the 19 Aroclors through the earth, step by step just like 20 Monsanto did it, correct? 21 A, Yes. We already said all these things. 22 Q, I want to make sure that each set of 23 directions were step by stop iust like Monsanto did 2 4 it themselves, correct? 2 5 A. Yes. Yes . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000412 -'4 I 1 Q . Now -- 2 A. Okay. 3 Q . - - my question t o you in: Or: t he 4 dermatology and toxicology and safe handling, did b you set out there step by at e p in detail exactly how 6 PCS'a were handled in Monsanto's plants? 7 A. No. I went in accordance with what was 8 given to me by the medical department. 9 Q. So, that's the only portion of this book to that doesn't give the step by step handling 1 1 procedures the same way Monsanto did it in their 12 plants; isn't that right? 13 A. Oh, it doesn't do this. This --- I have to t 4 agree. L agree with you on this. l`i Q. And every other portion of the book does 16 give the step by steps, doesn't it? 1 7 A. Yes . 10 Q. And the reason you put that, in there is 19 because that's what the medical department gave you 2 0 to put in there? 2 l A. Tha t ' s where it came from. 2 2 Q. And they're the ones -- 2 3 A . D r . sjchwarti! ' s k in - patch test. 2 4 Q - Did Dr. Schwartz give that, to you? 2 5 A . No . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000413 i4 I Q . Who (jdvrt LI ho you? 2 A. That came from t. h e in e d i c a J. department, 3 Q. Or. Kelly? 4 A. Well, it came through him, let me say. 5 That's where i. t came from, 6 Q. from Dr. Kelly? 7 A. from the medical department. a Q. Well, do you know whether it came, from 9 Dr. Kelly or - ~ or one of his people? 1 0 A. Oh, I don't know. I -- 1 can't, answer 11 thi. 3. It came from that aroa, 12 Q, Who was working with Dr. Kelly in the 13 medical department back in 1954? 1 4 A. T think Fllmor Wheeler was there. 15 Q. Were they aware of the type of book you J 6 were writing for everything else and what this was 1 7 goint) to go into? J a A. What, this information here would be 19 included in? 2 0 Q. Yes. 2 1 A. They should have been. 2 2 Q. You made them aware of that? 2 3 A. It was certainly ~TM to my knowledge, yes. 2 4 Q. Okay. 2 5 A. That was the operation procedure, yea. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000414 14 3 L Q. And lifter you got th.it back and put the 2 rent of the book together, it. was finally done; and 3 then provided to customers, correct? 4 A . This is correct.. 3 Q. Okay. C believe Mr. Crawford indicates 6 it's abouI time to take a break; so, why don't we 7 atop right here? fl THE VIDKOURAPHKR: We are now going 9 off the record. The time la 2 j 3 6 p.m. 10 (Short Recess) l l THB VrnflOCRAPHRR: We are now back on 1 2 the record. The time is 2iS>9 p.m. l 3 Q. (Oy Mr. fidcoy) Mr. RenLgnus, let me show 1 4 you document 2 0 b 2 through 2138 and ask you if this l 5 isn't an updated version of your work on the proper 1 6 handlinq of Aroclors and their mixtures in the l 7 Electrical Industry. 1 0 A . That. is. 19 Q. And this work follows the format of the; 20 original in that it has all of the detailed 2 1 information in each chapter on the specific Monsanto 2 2 procedures for doing everything with the exception 2 3 of the - not having the specific detailed 2 4 procedures on exactly how Monsanto handles PCB's In 2F their plant, units; is that correct? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000415 `I 4 1 A . That's the way it roads. 2 Q. Okay. Then, let me show you by the way, .3 tha -- what was the date of: that update*? 4 A . 56. 5 Q Okay. And why did you produce an updated 6 vara ion In 1956? 7 A . We ran out.. 8 Q.. Okay . 9 A. That's all. t 0 Q. You sold out the first printing? 1 J A. It. went. They were Intended for a handful t 2 of? customers; and where they alL went, C don't know. 1 3 Q. Okay. Now, Jet me show you anot.hex- l 4 document, 2139 through 2252, and ask you if this is 1 5 a 1960 update of your previous work entitled "The l 6 Proper Handling of Aroelors and Their Mixtures in 1 7 the Klectrical Industry." 18 A . Yes , it i. 3 . 19 Q. And was t. h a t printed because the 1 9 5 6 20 edition had run out? 21 A . Sad to nay, yea. 2 2 Q You -- you had a popular work there? 2 3 A . I - - it dumbfounded me, really. 2 4 Q . [low many copies of this thlrnj do you think 2 5 cjot. dist. ribut. ed between 195 2, 19 5 6, and 1960? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000416 .1 ! I A . E don't know. 2 Q . Qu i 1e a fpw of them. 3 A. Quite a few. 4 Q' Did people, who got the 19 5 2 edition also 5 get a 1956 edition? 6 A. Not. necessarily. 1 don't know why they 7 would want another one. 8 Q. Now, the - - the 195 2. edition and the 1956 9 editions were almost identical, were they not? 10 A. Correct . 11 Q. Let. me compare with you the 1956 edition 12 and the I960 edition to look at the changes or 13 additions that were present there. Now, that's the 14 '56 edition, and here's the *60 edition. 15 1 thought we might look at the just, 16 the index or table of contents. 1 7 A . Okay. 1 8 Q. It appears that in 1960 you added some 19 additional chapters. We've still got "Unloading 20 Tank Cars." We've still got. "Storage Tanks," got a 21 "Gasketing and Pump Tanking" -- "Pump Packing." 2 2 A . 11 h h u h . 2 3 Q. we've qot "Sampling Methods." We've got 2 4 "Laboratory Analysts and Test Procedures." 2 5 A . u h -- h u h . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000417 .1 4 I Q. We ' vr got a section on "Typical. 2 Propertie." 3 K. Oh. 4 Q. And then we have a new Chapter No. 8 in the 5 1960 edition, don't we, called "Quality Requirements 6 of A r o c 1 o r s Prior to Use in Electrical Industry"? 7 A. Yes. Okay. 8 Q. And t.hen we have a chapter on "Earth 9 Refinement." That's Chapter 9 here -TM 3 0 A . Yes. Yes. t 1 Q. - where It used to be Chapter 8? 1 2 A . R i q h t. . 1 3 Q. And then we. have another chapter called 14 "Contamination," which is new. 1 5 A. Yes. 16 Q. Ar>d another chapter called "Reworking l 7 Contaminated Transformer AskoraL," which is now? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And t. len the same last chapter ~ ~ 20 A. Yes. 21 Q, called "Dermatology and Toxicology," 2 2 correc t? 2 3 MR. CRAWFORD: David, have you 2 4 identified both those documents by numbers? 2l' MR. I.ACKYi I believe we have. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000418 34 / I T h 19 6 6 document La 2 0 6 2 through 2 2138, and the 1960 document, in 2139 t. hrough 2252. 3 MR. CRAWFORD; Okay. 4 MR. LACEY j Have we got a .... have we 5 got somothinq on Mr. Wheeler? 6 MR. SHOKHOTHAMt Why don't we .... why 7 don't wo go o f. the record? 8 MR. LACK Vi Well, why don't we just. go 9 ahead and leave It on the record ao I've got it? 1 0 That will 11 MR. SHOEHOTHAM: Why don't we take it 12 off the video? 1 3 MR. LACKy; That's fine to take it off 14 the video. That's 1 5 THE VIDBJOGRAPHRR : We're about to go 16 off the record -- off the video. The time id 3;03 17 p . m . 18 THE REPORTER: Who are you, please? 19 MU. SHOEHOTHAM: E'm John Shoebotham. 20 I a an attorney represent, ing Monsanto Company. 21 MR. CRAWFORD; God, do wo need to 2 2 swear him in? 23 MR. SHOKHOTHAM: Mr. Beniqnua, 1 2 4 haven't met. you. I'm Mr. Shoebot.haa. 2 8 THK WITNESS: I'* Mr. Beni gnus. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000419 1o I MR. SHOKHOTHAM i E ,in going to - 2 Mr. Lacey has asked me for dales on which 3 Mr. Wheeler, Mr. Rimer Wheeler, will be available 4 for his deposition. Mr. Wheeler will he available 5 for his dopes It ion on May fi, 7 , or 8 , l 9 B 7 . 6 Mr. Wheeler would prefer to do the 7 deposition In either Camden or Columbia, South a Carolina, due to health considerations. He has 9 difficulties in traveling because of some health 10 concerns. He would be available in either one of 11 those two places, either Camdon or Columbia. j ?. He, also because of his health 11 concerns, does not want to be in a situation where 1 4 the deposition days last too long; and we would make 1 5 him available tor two days and would hope that the 1 6 days would be a little shorter in view of his l 7 health. 1 8 MR. I. AC BY! What is considered a day 19 that he would want to spend in deposition? 20 MR. SHOEHOTHAM: 1 don't know an exact, 2 1 number of hours. I can get that for you, though, 22 certain)y 2 3 MR . I.ACKY s Okay . 24 MR. '.5H0EH0TH AM i X suggest we schedule 2 r. him perhaps for May 7th and 8t.h, if that's NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000420 .H 4 I Acceptable with you; but E think any one ot those 2 three days are. fine with hi in. 3 MR. LACEY: Es this re one p L a c e that's 4 easier to get. to than t.he other? > MR. SHOKBOTHAM t t woulil gues3 6 Columbia, but I don't know. 7 a Friday. MR. LACKYi Lot mo got back to you by 9 Are you going to be going out to San l 0 Diego? 11 MR. SHORHOTHAMi No. l 2. MR. LACEY: Let me get back to you by 1 3 Friday, e. it her by phone or whatever; and we'll pick 14 a date and a place after E ' v e chocked the airline IS schedule. J f. I am inclined at this time t.o go with 17 the 7th in Columbia just because E suspect we can lfl get there easier than Camden. 19 But you are able to assure me you will 20 be able to produce him? 2 l MR. SHORHOTHAMi Yes. 2 2 MR. LACEY: So, we will not go 2 3 pursuant to the subpoena? 2 4 MR. SHORHOTHAMi This is off the 2 5 record. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000421 .) u 1 (Discussion o t f t he Record) 2 Q. (By Mr. I.acey) With the 1960 version of 3 "The Proper HandLimj oC Aroclors and Their Mixtures 4 in the Blectrical Industry," what was the purpose of fi add i n<j the chapters on "Quality Requ ireaen ts , " 6 "Contaaination, " and "Reworking Contaminated 7 As kera l " 7 8 A . The purpose of the whole thing , 1 assure 9 you, was to pass along any information that we had 1 0 that, we felt would be of interest. And we've done l l our very best. 1 2 Q Okay . ) 3 A. And you understand the area 1 am concerned 14 i n . 1 h Q. yes. And, again, this I960 version, like 16 the previous two versions, had all the detailed 1 7 information about exactly how Monsanto did each step 18 in every chapter except "Dermatology and 19 Toxicology," correct? 7.0 A. This is correct. 21 Q. Okay. And in that, chapter on "Dermatology 22 and Toxlcolocjv" what was supplied was the 2 3 inf ormation t. he medical department gave to you to 24 include in this work? 2 b A. That's t.he information that, was available NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000422 35 I I to mo, correct, 2 Q. Right.. Did you actually review the 3 Information provided to you about dermatology and 4 toxicology t.o ensure that it. met. what you knew; or 5 just because it was supplied, you put It in? 6 A. it net what. I had read previously. And 1 7 think this is it. And this refers to things that B had been published in the literature, et. cetera. 9 Q. bet me ask you a coupLe of questions about 10 some of the material in that, section on denatology 1 t and toxicology. 1 2 A . All right. 13 Q. r think that tho Language remains 14 relatively constant through all three versions. 15 A. It does. 16 Q. See if I can get the three versions here in 1 7 front of us. 1 B This is the 1956 version 19 A. And this is --20 Q. The 1960 version. 2 1 A . '60. All rig h t. 2 2 Q. And we have, here, also, the 1952 version. 2 3 A. Yes . 2 4 Q. Now, t.he first paragraph in each one of 25 those versions --- or additions, I guess, maybe would NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000423 ^ 1 be the way to put It - - talks about skin contact; 13 2 that correct? 3 A. Whore? 4 Q. In the first paragraph. 5 A. "Ilk In s how a no primary Irritancy or 6 sensitization." 7 I think this in different, isn't it? 8 Q. Weil, what f'in asking about Is whether the 9 first paragraph in each one talks about skin. 1 0 A. This one certainly does, the one I'm 1 1 reading. 1 2 Q. Okay. And the other two? 13 A. t see "skin" hero and "skin" here. 1 4 Q. Okay. Now, in the 1952 version and the 1 5 1956 version, the first paragraph about skin is 16 identical in each one, in it. not? These two are 17 both identical? 18 A. They seem to be, yes. 19 Q. And, in fact. If wo go to the second 2 0 paragraph, the section on toxicology and skin is 2 1 identical? 2 2 A. This is riqht. . 2 3 Q. The third paragraph la also Identical on 2 4 those two, t he '52 and 2 5 A. One, two, three. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000424 3T>3 I Ifna . 2 Q. And the fourth paraqraph in almost 3 identical. There'a a change in the numbers for the 4 appropriate concentrations, is t.hei e not? 5 A. From this Is a 7; and this was a 1, I 6 a ec . 7 Q. Yes. Hut otherwise, those paragraphs are 8 identical, are they not? 9 A . Corr ect . 1 0 Q. Now, in the 19b2 version, in that paragraph 1 l about air concentrations, you indicated that the 1 7 safe concentration was in the range of . b to 1 13 milligram per cubic meter of air, correct? 1 4 A . Yes. 1 Si Q. In t.he 19b6 version, you raised that safe 16 concentration Erom -- to l to 2 milligrams per cubic J 7 meter of air? 1 8 A. I didn't raise it. That's probably a 19 typographical error or something. 7.0 Q. Okay. Okay. So, you think that 2 l A. It's - it's in the - - it's in the order of 77 magnitude there. 7 3 Q. Okay. 7. 4 A. There's not anything significant on that. 2 <5 Q. The - ~ Let me go ahead and get the '8 2 and NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000425 34 I '56 version a com pa rod beforn wo look at '60, which 2 is aokewhat different.. 3 A . Okay. All righ t. 4 O'. The next paragraph and I'll just. get. you 5 to look at those -- 6 A . Okay . 7 Q . - the next paragraph in the 1952 and '56 8 vers long are identical, are they not? Here - - 9 A . "Laboratory" - 10 Q. - - "Technique.w 11 A . All right. Yes. l 2 Q Then the next para g rap h Is also identleal / 13 is it not? 14 A, Yos . 1 5 Q. And t he next paragraph? 16 A. Y e 3 . Now, this ia plant procedure - - 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. -- incidentally. 1 9 Q. Yea. We'll talkabout that in a second. 2 0 A. All right. 2 1 Q. The next paragraph, .is that also identical? 2 2 A. Yes. 23 Q . And then the last, paragraph, is that also 2 4 identlca l ? 2 5 A. Yes . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000426 '.i r-, I Q. o, the only difference between the '52 - - 2 A . IS 1 versus 2. .3 Q. - - Is the air concentration. And you think 4 that may be a typographical - 5 A . Tha t -- that may be an aberration. 6 Q. Okay . best's talk about the changes between 7 the 19 5 6 vor a ion and then the I960 version, Now , fl a g a i n, these changes were made by the medical 9 department. Information they supplied you; is that 1 0 correct? 1 J A. Well, fionie of this la the same. 1 think l 2 there are statement a added hero. If they are -- 1 3 this - apeak 1nq of an open transformer, no, that l 4 probab ly isn't from the medical department. T h L s la 15 from the the industry, who who wakes 16 transformers - - 1 7 Q. Okay. 1 fl A. and our judgment. I 2 would agree 19 with it. If a transformer a temperature above Ls 20 opened if it's above; that, "to open, provide 21 exhaust ventilation." I wouldn't need the medical 2 2 department, t. o t. e .1 1 m e t. h a t. . 2.3 Q. Okay. Well, let's - - then, let's stop 2 4 and - and first look at the 1952 and 1956 versions; 2 53 bet; a use apparently the I96 0 version has some NELL MCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000427 h I Information that you put In there other t h an from 2 the Medical department, correct? 3 A. I would 3<i y this is correct. 4 Q. Well, let's atop; and let me auk you to 5 look at the 1956 version of: your "Dermatology and G Toxicology" section. Could you do that. for me? 7 A . This? You want me to look at - -- 8 Q Yes, the 1956 version. 9 A . I'm seeing it. 10 Q Well, t. h a t ' a - - you're actually 1ooking at l 1 1960 1 2 A . '60. Well, I don't have the '56 version. 13 Q That's what I'm trying to - 14 A . Oh . 15 Q. - ~ hand you right hero. lfi A . Oh, all right. 17 I'm seeing it, yes. 18 Q. Okay. Can I hand that, to you? 19 A. Oh, sure. 2 0 Q. Okay. Now, .in looking at t. h e information 21 on dermatology and toxicology In the 1956 version 2 2 A. That's this. 23 Q. -- of your book, what information in there 2 4 d 1 d not come from the medical d e p a r t m e n t., if any? 2 5 A. Only t he second page, too. For instance. NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000428 .1 . . t "Tioca l Lzev spot ventilation tog other with g on oral 2 workroom exhaust is recommended for plant 3 operat ions . " 4 fr. Did that, come from the medical department? 5 A . E really don't know. I red Lly don't know, 6 but. i t. i a t.here . 7 Q. Where miqht. it have come from if not. from 8 the medical department? 9 A. It's a statement that, makes sense. I would 10 think maybe from the industrial hygiene -- well, 1 ] that, is t. he medical department. l 2 Et's a statement that certainly makes 1 .3 sense and could have well come from the medical l 4 department or the plant department or -- or 1 5 wherever. 1 6 Q. What, about, that next .... l 7 A. l!n other words, it talks about spot 1 8 ventilation. 19 Q. All right. What about that, next paragraph, 20 which indicates that canvas gloves, sdEety glasses, 2 1 or goggles should be worn when sampling tank cars; 2 2 did that come from the medical department? 2 3 A . ft was I don't know if it. originated 2 4 with the medical department or whether it came from 2 b the p1 a n t. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000429 _i '.i Cl I Q. Okay. 2 A . It may have come from 1 he plant. Hut. 3 certainly, run by tin; medical department, T. 'm acre 4 they would agree. It seems to me that t hat, i h a 5 plant procedure that you asked about. 6 Q. Now, in regard to this paragraph talking 7 about sampling tank cars, does that talk only about 8 when sampling tank cars; or does that talk about 9 other procedures, in addition, where a person is ) 0 working with PCB's? t l A . It. s ays, " when sampling tank cars." 1?. Q . Yeah . 8o, the next sentence -n A . That 's why 1 say I think it came from our 1 4 plant.. 15 Q. Okay . And does the n e x t. sentence about. 16 c loth! n <j also refer to p e o ple who sample tank car3 J 7 A . That would - - should - should apply to 18 anybody. yourself or myself, if it gets spilled on 1 9 us, yes . 2 0 Q. Okay. So, the section there that says no 21 special clothing is required and recommends 22 laundering the workers' garments weekly 2 3 A. Yes. 2 4 Q. - - would refer not only to people sampling 2 5 tank cars, but also to peopLe working in a plant NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000430 I with FOB'S? 2 A . Yen. Yes. .3 Q. Okay. 4 A. That's why that is Uum e. Ye a, that's a 5 </enva l statement. 6 Q. With reqard to t.he remainder of this .... the 7 next last two paragraphs, did that also come from 8 the medical depart, men t. or1 from some other source? 9 A. C would say that this came from the 1 0 o apac .i t. or - i mpi eqna t i ng industry. This is standard 1 l practice there, when opening a 12 capa c i tor- i mpreqna t i ng chamber, that, a respirator \ 3 a hou l d be worn during these short intervals. One 1 4 would find a res pi rator in that area. 15 Q. So, the people that you were writing this 16 for q a v e you the information to put. in there to 17 write hack to them, then? 1 8 A. It could have originated there, yea. 19 Q . Did It originate there? 20 A . I would say that, statement did originate 21 there. 2 2 Q . Okay. 8 o , t h a t. didn't come from the 21 medical department, then? 2 4 A. I wouldn't think so. 1 think they would 2.5 agree with this as a matter of fact. That's why a NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000431 Jfeu 1 respirator is there, to protect. 2 Q. Okay. What, about the last, paragraph? Did 3 that paragraph come from the nodical department? 4 A . I'm not. sure that this came; from the 5 medical department or whether tills came from ijcneral 6 consensus from the .... from the industry. 7 Q. Thor e is a reference there to chlor inatod a benzene. That is talking about the benzene ring 9 that you drew for us yesterday, but replacing one or 1 0 more of the hydrogen atoms on it with a chlorine l l atom? 1 2 A . yeah. 1 3 Q. Okay. And some of the transformer fluids 14 had a mixture of pro's and chlorinated benzene; is lb that, correct? 16 A. This is correct. 1 7 Q. And that's why you reference chlorinated 18 benzene? 1 9 A . This is correct. 20 Q. Now, let me auk you to look, if you would, 2 1 at the I96 0 version. I'll take that. ' b 6 version - 2 2 A. Okay. 2 3 Q. and qet it out of the way here. 2 4 Let me Look at the I960 version with 2 b y o u . And let's go back to the first portion of the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000432 1h l I section there on - wh'vo qono - - wo've inis smi It, 2 haven ' t we? 3 Try.5ncj to find where; it begins. Here 4 we go. 5 A . Oh . 6 Q. The chapter on dermatology and toxicology 7 starts at Document No. 224 3. Now, the L: 1 r s t 8 psraqraph , does t. h a t. come from the medical 9 department? 1 0 A. T would say so. l l Q . A L 1 right. 1 2 A . That's my impression. 13 Q. And, again, you have indicated to me that 1 4 you would say, if - - if it were up to you, that if t 5 PCR's get on the skin, they should be washed off 1 6 immediately with soap and water, correct? 1 7 A. Within reasonable promptness, yes. 1 8 Q . Okay. 19 A. Right. 3 would say that any time. 20 Q. Now, the aficond p a r a g r a p h, that's that same 21 paragraph on sampling tank cars, correct? 2 2 A. Ves. 5fes. 2 3 () . And the 3 e c o ri d sentence there t. a 1 k s about 24 the general attire of: workmen both around tank cars 2 f and in the plant, working with PCH's, correct? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000433 -i < 1 A . 0 a y this rii(.un . 2 Q. Yes. T he first sentence in this second 3 paragraph -~ 4 A . "When sampling tank earn," 5 Q . - - talks about wearing ij lovea - f> A . Yes. 7 Q. .... and safety glasses when sampling tank 8 <: a r s ? 9 A . Yeah. 1 0 Q. Now, the second sentence talks about no 1 1 special clothing and laundering the workers' 1 2 garments once a week? l 3 A. Yes . 1 4 (). Now, that relates not. only to people l S sampling tank cars, but also to people working In 1 6 the plant with PCD ' s? l 7 A. Yos. 10 Q . Okay. 19 A. Yes. 2 0 Q. Now, the third paragraph talks about 2 l burn*. 22 A . nh- huh . 23 Q. Did that information come from the medical 2 4 department? 2 b A . Yes. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000434 t Q Anti it also h a :j in thnrfi the r> y e 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. .... problem and suggests to see a doctor if 4 there's -- b A . Y(id , 6 Q . - oye contact? 7 A . Wight.. That came from the medical 8 depart: id n n t. 9 Q. Okay. If we qo to the; next page, where it 10 talks about vapors In the first paragraph -1 J A . Yes. 1 2 Q. did that information come fro* the l 3 med i ca L do pa rt m n t ? 1 4 A. Yen. - 1 5 Q. Now, again, here on the concentration l 6 L e v o L s -- 17 A . Wai t a minute. Wait, a minute. Wait, a 18 minute. Wa i t a minute. 1 9 "Vapors from hot Jlroclor or Aakeral 20 have a degree of toxicity and should not be inhaled 2 1 over a prolonqod period of time." This, the medical 22 department, would agree .with. I would say this. 2 3 This i u s t. makes common, ordinary sense;, t. h a t the 2 4 vapors from the hot Aroc lor or Askarols have a 2 b degree of toxicity and a h o u 1 d n o t. he i n h a 1 e d o v e r a NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000435 I prolonged period of; time. 2 Anything I've ever stated said avoid .3 breathing the vapors and dusts from PCB's. And this 4 is well established. So, the medical department, I 5 ass tiro you, wouLd not disagree with it. I'm well 6 aware of this myself. I've always said this. it's 7 a, you might say, well- documented and 8 wel1-established statement. 9 Q. Well, did that - 1.0 A. no not. inhale vapors from a PCB's . 1 l Q. Did that statement, though, come from the 1 2 medical department.; or' is that your s 1 a t e is e n t. ? l 3 A. Originally it would have come from the 14 medical d e p a r t m e ti t . 1 8 Q. Okay. Now, in this section we return to 16 the .5 to l - 1 7 A. Kxcuse me. It. would come from t.he medical 18 department within the boundaries of Monsanto. And 19 anybody that knows about PCB's would -- would agree 2 0 with this. Anyone understanding PCR's would agree 21 with it. I have, no ti r e. a of rtisaqreempnt, is what. 2 2 I'm saying on this. 2 3 Q. Okay. 2 4 A. Okay? 2 f> q. And it. and it. c.omes front the medical NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000436 11> n I department, L n i. I: L a L I y ? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. okay Well, do you disagree with anything 4 in hare that comes from the medical department? b A . No, I don't. <> Q . Okay. Now, in this Cirst paragraph, 7 t. a 1 k i n g about, air concentration - - 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. -- and vapors l 0 A. Yeah. 11 Q. wo see the . b to milligram per cubic 12 meter of a i r aya i n . 1 3 A. Yes. 1 4 Q. That goes back to the 19b 2. version, does it. 1 5 not? 1 6 A . Yes. 17 Q. Okay. Now, when we: go to the second 10 paragraph, does that information come from the 1.9 medical department? 2 0 A. No. Tlie inedioaL department doesn't 21 necessarily know that a capacitor impregnation may 2 2 be done at a temperature as high as 2 fc 6 deg c o e s 2 3 Fahrenheit.. The;y would have read this, but this 24 didn't come from the mod it: a l department. 2 b This came from knowledge as to how NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000437 \bb I high l. he impregnation i. a done, at times 130 degrees 2 centigrade. 3 Q. So, t hat, second paragraph on Document. 4 Mo. 2244 comes from somebody other than the medical b d e p a r t m v. n t. ? 6 A . It. comes from t he knowledge that capacitors 7 are often impregnated as high as 130 degrees 8 c e n t. i g r a d e , correct. 9 Q. And is that something you knew and wrote l 0 down? 1 1 A. Something I would have known. l 2 Q. Okay. 1 3 A, And any capacitor maker would have known. 14 Q. What about the third paragraph; does that 1 f> also come from something you knew, as opposed to the l 6 medical department? 1 7 A. I would know this, and the medical 1 8 department would know this. 19 Q. Well, did that statement in the third 20 paragraph come from the medical department or you? 2 1 A. This statement, here? 2 2 Q. Yes. 2 3 A . It. could have come from cither, 2 4 r.et me say this: If T were to say to 2*> the medical department that, the Askeral transformers NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000438 in I arrt used at t e m p n r a t u r o 3 above - - exr.nse me , Oh - 2 "if transformer Aakarels" - I'm sorry -- "fluids 3 are used at temperatures above this to fill an open 4 transformer" ~~ okay - "exhaust, ventilation should 5 be pcov idml in the immediate area." 6 Now, J 5 0 degrees F is more typical of 7 a transformer situation than 130 degrees C. Now, I R know if Askare]a are heated to this temperature, 9 the there will bo vapors and fumes; and, 1 0 therefore, this culls for exhaust ventilation, as I l l say; because any time you hoar mo say anything, I 1 7. say, "Do not breathe the vapors emitted at elevated t n temperatures." And I would say that 150 degrees ] 4 Fahrenheit is - is perhaps the starting point, of 1 s t hat. 16 Q. Well, my question to you, though, is 17 whether that third paragraph on 2244 is something 18 that was provided to you by the medical department 19 or that you put in yourself based on your own 2 0 knowledge. 2) A . I think 1 provided i t and -- and discussed 2 2 11 and ran it through the m ed ieat. department and it 2 3 wan p u t. i n here. 24 Q. Okay. What about, the fourth paragraph on 2 5 2 24 4 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000439 ,'j t-. o I A . T h L 3 one? 2 Q . - - did that. c o in e f r o m the medical 3 department or from yon? 4 K. This came from the industry. And you'll (5 run Into this statement in other Literature that is 6 from the industry. 7 (). Who in the industry provided you with that 8 infonidt ion? 9 A. People who made transformers would have l 0 boon tho ones to comment and provide this, 1 1 transformer manufacturers. l 2 Q. That o n o - 1 3 A. Hecuuse they are the people who impregnated 1 4 capacitors and filled transformers, and this ia 1 t> their consensus. And to my knowledge, 1 don't know U5 of anything that would refute the Industry's it ) 7 demonstrates the: i Indus try's ability to handle these l 8 fluids without hazards to the workmen. 19 Nobody that. 1 know of came to Monsanto 2 0 with a problem along these lines. It says, "The 21 years of satisfactory use demonstrates the industry 2 2 ability to handle these fluids." 2 3 Q. Did you go - 4 2 4 A. That's the consensus in the industry. ?; q . Did you go out. and canvass the companies NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000440 .ib^ I th.it used Aak.i ni I 3 t o determi.no that they had not 2 had any problems? 3 A . No . 4 Q . We]], how did y o u come up w i t. h the; ] driquaqe ri for that statement, then? 6 A. 3 think you'].I find that in in / publications. a C). Well, we've seen similar statements in 9 other Monsanto publications. i o A. No. I mean other than Monsanto 11 p u bl1o a t ions . 1 7 Q. Whose publications wi]] we find that in? 1.1 A. Well, I think you'll find that in some 1 4 .later publications where the electrical industry lf> writes about these th i n gs. 1 6 Q. WelJ, what publications would I look at to t 7 find that? i a A. I would say ANSI and NRMA. 19 Q. Okay. And that's National KtoctricMi 2 0 Manufacturers Association? 2 l A. Vos. 2 7 And you haven't, looked at these, yet.. 21 Q . Okay. Maybo we can do that. 2 4 The last paragraph on that, page .... 2 r> A . All r L g h t. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000441 iiu 1 Q . -- wc ' v< m last'd that i a talking about 2 good hoiisekeepi nq , Where, did that statement, come 3 f rom? 4 A. This i it a general, you might flay, 5 observal: ion, a genera l statement, that It is both 6 simple and in line with qood housekeeping and 7 personal cleanliness, the exercise of suggested a precautions in all c a s e s. 9 Q. Did that come j o A. it's a sensible statement to make, isn't 11 I t? i ? (.). Well, my question is: Where did it come L 3 from? The medical department or you? 1 4 A . They wovi 1 d certainly agree with it.. l 5 Q. Rut where did it come from, initially? Vou 1 6 or- the medical depart.ment.? l 7 A. C rea l ly don't know. it's a general 1 8 interest statement of common sense. T t.'s - -- i t. ' a 19 not a detailed medical presentation of medical data 2 0 or so forth. 21 Q. It does n' t. have in u c h ipec.if.icn with i t.? 2 2 A . It d o e s n ' t ha v e much specifics. Ct's just 2 3 an o veral1 g e n e r a 1 s t a t e in e n t to exercise these 2 4 procaui: i ons . Why make these procautio n a r y 2 b statements if you' re going t. o say don't, e. xe r c 5 a p NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000442 .t - l I thorn? 2 Q. Okay. 3 A . This i 5i what. I ' in trying to nay . 4 Q. Okay. And thou wn've got tho last - 5 A. Yeah. "Arced Atikeral . " 6 Q. Yeah. 7 A . l)h h u h , a Q. Where did this paragraph come from? 9 A. This cornea from obaorvationa and studies by 1 o the Underwriter's Laboratories, originally. Those 11 studios wore sponsored at the Underwriter's by 1 2 people like (Jen oral Klee trie and We. stiii ghouse and so i ;i forth . 1 4 Q. So, thin cornea from llnderwri ter 1 s 15 [laboratories' materials? 1 6 A. This is where this comes from. 17 Q. Okay. 1 8 A. This is where that, original, e a . 19 Q. Have we found out the sources of all the 2 0 statements that, you've got in thin 1960 version on 21 "Dermatology and Toxicology"? 2 2 A. An far as 1 know. 2 3 0 . Okay. And you were the author of tho book, 2 4 a t. least, nominally? 2 5 A . Yes. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000443 I Q. Okay. Let mo ask you about your know ledije 2 of the way transformer plants and capacitor plants 3 operated. Did you ever visit your customers' plants 4 to s ve how they operated? <5 A. I've been in plants, yea, 6 (1 . What, plants did you visit.? 7 A. I visited - I've been in the p L a n t at 8 Hudson Falls, New York. 9 Q. Whose plant is that? 1 0 A. Gensral Klee trie. t t Q. What other plants? 1 2 A. I've been irt - - 1 visited the plant at l 3 B L o o hi i n g t o n , Indiana, o n c e . 1 4 Q. Whose - 1 L A. T don't, know if it was operating, but I 16 was - - I've been - ~ 1 7 Q . Whose plant - - l 8 A. -- in the building. 1 9 Q. Whose plant, was that? 20 A. That's Wst i nghouse. 2 1 Q. Okay. 2 2 A. I've been in the building. 2 3 Q . What other- plant, s ? 2 4 A. Rlodrical Utilities at LaSalle, Illinois. 2 fi Q. LaSalle? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000444 I A . T h c! y m i g h I; h a v e b ee n liaSal tn, yeah. 2 They're out of bus i nfiii! , 3 Q . Electrical Utilities? 4 A. Yea. 5 Q . Wha t o tho ra ? 6 A. 1 really didn't - T want, to explajn 7 someth Imj here , 1 seldom - - 1 never diil really go 8 out a pec i f i ca 3 1 y t. o viait. a plant. It was 9 incidental on calling on the people that they 1 0 would somehow or other we'd get out into the l 1 plant area, to get a Coke or something like that and 1 2 so forth. 13 Q. I see. 1 4 A. 3 did not specifically put. on my hat. and l 5 coat to (jo out and visit anybody's plant. 1 6 (). What did you observe being manufactured at l 1 the G.K. plant in Hudson Falls, New York? 18 A. Capacitors. 19 Q. What did you observe being namif aciured at. 20 the Wes t1nghouse plant in R looming ton? 21 A. Capacitors, 2 2 Q. And what did you observe beinq manufactured 2 3 in the r, a `.1 a l l o , Illinois, H l e c t r i. c a l Utilities 2 4 plan l. ? ?S A . Yes. Capacitors. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000445 -1 4 I Q . M av o you over hewn in a plant whe r e 2 tranuforuera are manufactured? 3 A. I've been at plants where transformers are 4 manufactured. I'm trying to - 5 You want-, to know whether I inspected 6 the plant.; is that, it? 7 Q. No. What plants have you been at where a transformers are manufactured? 9 A. Oh, have t been at where transformers are 1 0 made;? 1 l Q. Nh - huh. 1 2 A. I've been at. the West, ingho use plant. 1.1 Q. Where? 1 4 A. At. Sharon, Pennsylvania. Now, you l 5 understand "at the plant" doesn't mean that l was 1 6 out. in the factory? l 7 Q. I understand. i a A. Okay. Okay. 19 Q. What other plants have you been at where ?.o transformers were manufactured? 2 l A. I was at the plant buildings, office, at 2.2. Rome, Georgia -- O.K. at. Rome, Georgia. 23 Q. That was a transformer plant.? 24 A. That's a transformer plant. 2 5 Q. Okay. What else? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000446 si :> I A . C w a 3 at: .in oft Lee L n G . K . ' s trana format' 2 plant at Pittsfield. Massachusetts. 3 Q. What else? 4 A . J think I've been at the plant of 5 U l is -Ch.i Uei's .it Pittsburgh, called on a man there. 6 () . What, other plants? 7 A. Wagoner R loetr lc and Maloney Electric. 8 0 Where were those located? 9 a . ;; t. fjou i a . 1 0 Q . noth of them? t I. A . fJ h h u h . 12 () . What else? t 3 A. 1 think that's about it. 1 4 () . Okay. 1.5 A. There are not that many. If. Q. Okay. When you visited the General 17 Klee trie Hudson Falls, New York, capacitor plant, i a did you go into the area where capacitors were being 19 made? 20 A. I have been in the area at Hudson Falls 2 l where capacitors were being made, yes. 22 Q. 0 i d you 2 3 A. C walked through there. 24 Q. Did you observe the process of: manufacture 2 5 going o n ? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000447 i r> I A. Vo a. Not that t was there to inapac t It; 2 but, yea, I observed, 3 Q. Did you observe the A roc. lor materials being 4 handled in a way that you tit ought was appropriate? B A . Well, they were handled in - in thin 6 particular location - it w a s appropriate, as far a s 7 I was concerned, walkinq through there. 8 There was ventilation, yes. I -- t 9 was not in a position to challenge and so on and no 10 forth. 1 J Q. Well, my question, though, in whether or 1 2 not you thought what you saw was appropriate or 13 not. . 1 4 A. I accepted that. that.'s what they were Hi doing. ] 6 Q. That's not my quest.ion, 1 7 A. I realise this. 1 B Q. Well, could you answer my question? 19 A. I would say t accepted what --- what they 20 were doing there. 21 I.e t. me put it this way: I was not 2 2 bothered by anything as I waLked through there. 2 3 From that, point of view, it's a c c e p t. a b 1 e to me and 2 4 appropriate. 2h Q. Okay. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000448 .i 7 7 I A. 1 was not; subjected to what I would 2 consider a harmful exposure to fumes, because what. J 3 was going by it was essentially at room 4 temperature. They were not opening a capacitor 5 chamber and this sort of a thing . I did not put 6 a mask. There was no occasion. T h i ng s were at 7 normdl temperature. 8 Q. Okay. When - 9 A . f>o, from that point, I would say okay. 3 0 Q. When you went to the Westinghouae capacitor l 1 plant in Bloomington, Endiana, did you go into the 1 2 area where: capacitors were being made? 11 A. E don't think it was in operation. When I 1 4 went, there, 1 was asked - ~ they had moved there, and 15 Ralph Marberry had taken great pride in designing 1 6 that plant; and they had moved from East 17 Pittsburgh. ) 8 And he had set up a manifold system -19 system of impregnation. And his purpose of showing 2 0 me this was to show this method, which was different 21 from the usual method, which i3 batch flooding. He 2 2 impregnated each capacitor individually. 2 3 But'I - the thing wasn't running. It 2 4 wan new. It. wan there. He had just, designed and 2 5 b u 1.1 t this thing. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000449 J /H I Q . lio, you saw t h e plant b e I: o r o It actually 2 started up? 3 A. A a 1 remember, I saw it. before it. start e d 4 up. 5 Q . Did i t. appear t o you that the plant, was 6 designed as a new plant with appropriate 7 venti J. a t. i on? 8 A, 1 don't, think it wan running at that. time. 9 Q. No, that's not my question. Whether Lt was 10 denigned ~~ 1 l A . Oh, I don't know. 1 7. Q. to have t.he appropriate ventilation. 13 A . T didn't Inspect Lt. T didn't inspect lt. ] 4 Q. You didn't, observe anything about that? l 5 A . I didn't inspect their ventilating systems 16 and no forth, no. 17 Q So, you certainly couldn't criticise thin 13 plant that had been designed by Mr. Marberry? 19 A . I never did. No, I couldn't.. 7 0 Q. And were you improased -71 A . And 1 wasn't asked to. 2 2 Q r understand. 7 3 A . I wasn't there to do that. He merely 7 4 showed this to ns. 7 S Q Well, were you impressed with the design he NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000450 1 had Cor impregnating those capacitors and thought It 2 was a good one? 3 A . 1 w o u1d think so. I see nothing wrong with 4 a manifold impregnation. In fact, he EeLt there was S an advantage to it, ( guess. 6 Q. Okay. And you didn't see any disadvantage 7 t. o it.? a A. I saw no disadvantage to it.. 9 Q, Weil, what about when you visited the i o LaSalle, Illinois, Fleet, ri c Utilities capacitor L 1 pLant; did you go out Into the area where capacitors 12 were being made? 13 A. 1 was there in the area where capacitors 1 4 wore being made, yes. T'vo been there. If) Q. Did you observe anything that caused you 16 any concern about the way they were handling PCH's? 1 7 A . I felt that their ventilation may not have l 8 boon all that it should be, but I wasn't them to 19 call their inspector or anything else. 20 Q. Did you see -21 A. I - I c oxi Id smell more A) odor there at 22 that point in time than I would have expected to. 23 You realize, don't, you, that, you can 24 smell Aroclor? It's not without detectable odor. 2fi Q. What does Aroclor smell like? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000451 ' ti u 1 A. Aroclor has a elnan odor, is the best I can 2 describe this to you. a clean odor. It has no odor 3 a s perfumes or flowers or anything like t h a t . 4 you wouldn't use it us perfume y 5 A . No, b e c a u :i o it doesn't Impart that kind o f 6 del icate odor 7 Aroclor doesn't smell bad . It smells 8 clean. May I say " c i oa n odor?" 9 Q. This is new Aroclor? 10 A. It's -- let mo say this < The nearest I can 11 nay t.hat might be familiar to you is if you go into l 2 the washroom In a public place and you smell the 13 naphthalene - - okay? - - in other words. the 1 4 disinfectant. Tt's not a odor that upsets one. 15 It's ~~ it's a clean odor. And i t.'s not a strong 16 odor at normal temperatures. 17 Q. This is - this in fresh Aroclor? 18 A. Well,, T don't know what you mean by ''fresh 1 9 Aroclor." 20 Q. Unused. 21 A. I'd say --unused? 2 2 Q. Yes. 2 3 A. That's true of unused; and it's true of 2 4 used, too, 25 Q. So, even Aroclor in a failed transformer or NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000452  '-i i I a failed capacitor i. a going to have that same amoLL? 2 A . Oh, now, wait, a minute. 3 Q. Well, that's what I'm trying to rind out. 4 A . Oh. Well, now, failed, you're probably 5 talking about an arcing failure of a transformer or 6 a case of a capar.it. or where the thing has consumed 7 itself. a Q. What smell would Aroclor have there? 9 A. In those situations -- remember, there's 1 0 more t.han PCB inside a transformer. There are l l cellutoslc materials, in the case of a transformer, 1 2 pressboard, wood, and things like that. 13 And if this thing has been subjected 14 to the heat one generates when there's an arc-formed 15 gas, you're going to get carbonization and odor 1 6 and -- and so forth that, is not at. all normal at 17 all. It's going to smell. You better believe it. J 0 Q. It. ' a going t. o have an unpleasant smell? 19 A. Oh, yes . 2 0 Q. Okay. 21 A. And you have hydrogen chloride. Yes, very 2 2 pungent. 2 3 Q. Okay. Now, at this Electric Utilities 2 4 plant In LaSalle, Illinois, you did not feel that 2 5 t. hey had the ventilation they should; is that NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000453 j x I corvec t? 2 A . I said t. h i s as a general thing. yes, 3 Q. 0 i d you - 4 A . A 1 though, 1 was not uncomfortable. H u t - 5 Q Did you e xpress your concern to the people: f> there at. the plant that they were not. handling it 7 well? H A . No . 9 Q . You just. kept, your mouth shut, and went on? 10 A. I wasn't being asked. And, after all, ] 1 they've been woiking in there day and out -- day in l 2 and day out with no report o any hea L th hazards 1 3 and - 1 4 Q. Did you ask them when you were there about 15 health problems? J 6 A. No, I didn't.. t 7 Q . you just --- bark at Monsanto where you 1 B normally stayed, you never had heard anything about, 19 a health problem there at that plant? 20 A. That's right. I hadn't heard of a health 2 l problem at any of these places. 2 2 Q. Hut had you ever gone to any of these 2 3 places and attempted to determine whether they had 2 4 any health problems? 2 5 A . N o, I didn't. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000454 i ,i I Q . Wo L l , you h a v e n ' h hoard of! t hein , You 2 haven't -- you haven't, inquired about, any, either. 3 It'a just ~ 4 A . This i :i collect. 5 Q. Okay. When you went to the Westinghouse f, transformer plant in Sharon, Pennsylvania, did you 7 go out into the area where transformers were fl manufactured? 9 A, Yes, where they were being -- the corea 1 0 were being wound. Yes, I remember that. 1 1 Q. Did you observe t. heir use of PCFf'a? l 2 A. 1 don't think, actually, that r did. I 1 3 must, have passed some tanks where they were. I M didn't -- in that plant, the only thing I remember J.b there was people winding the core and the coil of 16 transformers. T wasn't there when they wore being 1 7 i impregnated . 1 8 Q. Okay. What about, the transformer plant, 19 that General Electric had in Rome, Georgia? When 20 you were there, did you go into the area where .... 21 A. L wasn't in the plant there ever. 2 2 Q. Okay . So, you don't. know w h e t. h e r t. h e v were 2 3 us L ng thn m well or not? 2 4 A . No . I wasn't in the p 1 a 7i t there, no. 2 5 Q Okay . What about the General Electric NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000455 .1H4 I transformer plant i. n Pittsfield, Massachusetts; did 2 you go into -3 A . I w a a not In t h o plant. 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. No, I waa in the of!t:Lce. 6 Q . What about the All is- Chalmers transformer 7 plant in Pittsburgh; did you go into the plant area? B A. No. I was not in the plant, no. 9 Q. What about the Wagoner Electric plant in 1.0 St. Louis; were you in the plant area? 1 l A. r was in that plant area ~~ 1 2 Q. Did you observe them 13 A. - at one time. 1 4 Q. Did you observe 1. hem using PCR'sV l 5 A. I think ho, yea. This was many years ago; 1 6 b vi t. I would think so, that - - there were some 17 transformers there in various stages, and I would i a think that, they were using PCH's at the Wagoner 19 plant. 2 0 Q. Did you observe anything about t.hesii- use of 21 PCB'a that gave you any concern? 2 2 A. No. No, f didn't. 2 3 Q. What about the Maloney transformer plant In 24 St. Louis; did you go into the transformer area? 2 5 A. No, 1 was never in that -- in that plant. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000456 I Q. 8 0 - 2 A . I'm not. sure i w <t si at. t h e i r office, even . 3 Q. Okay. So, the only transformer pI a n t you 4 can actually remember cj o .i n g to where you saw PCR ' a 5 in use was the Maqoner plant in St. Louis? 6 A. That they were actually in process of 7 filling transformers I'm trying to think. a Obvioun1y these other -- all of these other plants 9 used PCB'a and made transformers at one poLnt or 1 0 another. They were filling transformers with PCB's 11 and 30 on and so forth. J 7. Q. Rut you didn't observe them doing it? 13 A. [ didn't observe that in the transformer J 4 area. I have observed in the capacit.or area where 15 they were impregnating capacitors. It was - in one J 6 cage it was ~ 17 Q. Which plant was that? J 8 A. Well, Rloctric Utilities, I mentioned. 19 Q, Okay. Well, that's what I am saying. 20 A. That was capacitors. 2 l Q. As I understand your testimony, you have 2 2 observed the use of I'CR's by a customer of Monsanto 2 3 on one occasion for sure: That's the capacitors at 2 4 Rlect.ri c Utilities in LaSalle? 2 5 A. No. There's was more than one occasion for NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000457 .1 Cl t I capacitors. 2 Q . What, o t. h e r s ? 3 A. Well, the Electric Utilities at LaSalle. 4 That ' a one. b Q . You've t. old me about that. one. 6 A. I've seen the - 1 was in the plant at 0.8. 7 at Hudson Palls. 8 (). I thought, you told me you didn't, actually 9 see them us ini) the FOB'S at that point. 10 A. Well, T saw t.he PCB ' s standing there, in l l vats. 1 2 Q. Okay. 13 A . That's - - that's .... is that, using it? 1. 4 Q. Well, t guess that's what I'm trying to 1 b find o u t. . I mean .... l 6 A. I would say that that is material in one 1 7 a t a q e or another of use. Ifl When when the impregnation goes on, 19 you see, this is under vacuum and pressure in a 2 0 closed reactor. 2 J Q, Were you able to see t.he HCH's in these 2 2 open vats at Hudson Falls? 2 3 A. At. Hudson Palls? Yes. 2 4 Q. Okay. 2 b A. Just, as though it was in this room here. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000458 *. O / I It was a vat that - - well , maybe be from hero to 2 almost that wall long a n d abmi t. this widfi; and these 3 power capacitors wore i n there. A nd this i. 3 W ll .1 t 4 was rolled, moved, into this c. yJiridric. a] 5 Impregnating chamber. 6 Now, what 1 saw was the capacitors 7 after they had been impregnated and they had been 8 cooled down; and they were sitting t h e r e in these 9 vats, waiting to be soldered. 1 0 Q. Okay. Did you see any workmen actually l l working w i t h them? J 2 A . I'he.re were workers in the plant, yes. 1 3 Q. Actually working with the P C 8'3 in the 1 4 capacitors? 1 8 A. Not the ~~ the particular -- what, do you 16 want to call it? -- these tanks that L' saw. We just 1 7 walked by them, and they were sitting in there. 18 Q. Okay. AnypLace else that you haven't told 19 me about where you've actually observed either 20 capacitor or transformer manufacturers working with 21 the PCft'a? 22 A. I'm trying to think. It's - it's been 23 y oa r3 ago . 24 A. Where -- where could I have -- I'm thinking 2 5 now about transformers. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000459 Joe I I believe no, no. E didn't see 2 the* working with It. there. 3 I ' v* boon In the plant. Again, i. t wag 4 not operating; 3 o, 3 didn't see them working with it. ri at A r o v o x . T h a t ' a capacitors. 6 Q . Rut. you didn't - - 7 A. E ' v e a non their facilities, but it was not R in operation. They weren't, working with it. 9 Q. So, you've told me, as Car as you can 1 0 recall, places where you've actually seen PCB'a 1 1 being used? 1 2 A . This i s r i q h t . 1.1 Q . Okay . Did you ever visit 14 A . 1 don ' t mean to say that 15 everything. E'vo done my best to answer you. 16 Q . That's all I can ask. l 7 A. Yeah . 1 B Q. Did you ever visit the Monsanto plants 19 where PCB's wore actually produced? 2 0 A. Yes . 21 Q. Did you visit both the Anniston, Alabama, 22 p Lant -- 2 3 A . Yea, both. 2 4 Q. and the - 2 b A. I've been in both plants. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000460 1 Q - - and tho K r u m m r l c. h plant? 2 A . Correc1. 3 Q. Tell me what, you observed about Monsanto ' s 4 I? C B |>r o d u c 11 o n In t h o Krumnr ich plant? b A . I'm q oing back years ago, and I'm going to 6 make a general observation. Years ago chemical 7 plants were not. as clean as they are today. 1 think 8 we all know this. 9 The Aroclor plant, at Krummrich was l 0 outdoors. I was aware Aroclor was being made. 1 1 There were tanks and stills there that were at 12 higher temperatures. The equipment and the 1 3 ch 1 or! na tors , et. cetera, were - were not cool and 14 Idle. They wore In operation. Hvon though this was 1.5 out. of doors, I was aware I was around the odor of 16 Aroclor. J 7 1 will say t.hi s : 1 was there in more 1.8 recent yoars, probably around 1968. And by that 19 time, things had improved by way of clean!inean. 1 2 0 think that's a general observation. 2 1 Q. When were you first there, the first time 2 2 you were describing for mo, about what period of 2 3 time ? 24 A. I would probably p u t this sometime in the l 9 b 0 ' s . In the l 9 5 0 ' s, sometime around there. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000461 .i' u 1 RfitMiise I would go to the laboratory at the 2 Krummrich plant; and there'a where I saw Arcelor 3 used, tasted, and so on and so forth. In the 4 laboratories, yes. b Q . Did you also q o out. into the plant, area 6 where it was blmj manufactured? 7 A. 1 said, yes, 1 was out there. 8 Q . Okay. Did you observa any special 9 precautions taken by the workmen to avoid contact 1 0 with Aroclora or any precautions taken by Monsanto 1 1 to keep the workmen from coming into contact with l 2 Aroc lot s ? J 3 A. I did not. I observed hard hats. I wore a l 4 hard hat. I observed gloves being worn as one would 1 5 wear qoinq wear climbing onto a tank car or - or 16 going up iron stairs, et cetera, and an iron 1 7 rai1inq, and maybe rolling some drums. 18 These gloves were not there for the 1 9 purpose of covering the hand skin from t. he Aroc. lor. 2 0 Neither did E have anything. E had goggles was - - 2 1 this was standard practice. You qo into a plant., 2 2 they give you protective goggLes; yes, E had this. 2 3 And these are n a f c t. y goggles, for .innlance, o r 24 glasses. That was a requirement when you wnt into 2 b a chemical plant.. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000462 1 At one point. In ti*o, whe thor you went 2 to the PCB area or not., they would give you a 3 mock .1 to wear; but you had that whether you went to 4 Aroc 1 or or not. 5 Q. Anything o13 o ? 6 A. They wear safety shoes, but not because of 7 the PCB. They didn't want any heavy thing to break 8 their toes. 9 0. Talking about ateel-toed shoes? 1 0 A. 8 teel-toed 3 h o e s , yea. 1 1 Q . Anything else? 12 A . No. C ' d any that's it. ] 3 Q. Did you ace any changes between the way the 14 workmen wore exposed or not exposed to PCB'a when 1 8 you went back to the Krurnwrich plant in the late 16 60's, other than the fact It was cleaner and you 1 7 couldn't smell it? 1 8 A, No, I couldn't see any difference in their 19 attire, no. 20 Q. What about the Anniston, Alabama, plant.; 21 when did you visit that plant? 2 2 A . I visited Anniston, Alabama - 1 would say 23 the first time was in 19 - - maybe '40 or '47, 2 4 n a m e t. h i n g like this, 2 <3 Q. And what did you observe there about NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000463 .i * / .1 1 precdutiona provided by Mona .into for the workmen? 2 A . H a s e n t. .i a ] 1 y t h e same as I -just. said for l h e 3 Krunrich plant. 4 Q. You didn't, notice any -- 5 A. There are no special protective - - they 6 didn't, wear aprons and - -- and protective garments. 7 They were attired In their khaki. Some even wore 8 the supervisor, he wore a white shirt. -- I don't 9 know why --- and khaki pants. He didn't -- at times, 1 0 didn't, wear a hard hat, either. t l Q. Were there special uniforms that Monsanto 1 2 required a]] its people to wear? You were supposed 13 to wear a khaki - 1 4 A. Yes. 115 Q. .... uniform to work? 16 A. Yes. This is a thing that, whether you 17 were in the laboratories or In the plant, you had ) 8 these uniforms to wear. It. was no longer that you 19 came there in your street clothes. You wore those 2 0 uniforms; and they were laundered by the company 2 l and/or furnished and laundered by the company and 2 2 were changed once a week or twice a week, whatever. 2 3 11! needed, If there was a spill, they would be 2 4 c h a n g e d at. that. time. 2 r) Q. Okay. So, the workmen had special clothes NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000464 .5 .1 1 when they came to work: to change into? 2 A. Yes. They - they didn't, work in their 3 street clothes. Let me say. Those days were? over 4 with, yes. ci Q . Okay. Any other precautions that were 6 tii ken with re (yard to exposure to PCB's? 7 A . Not. that. 1 know of, no, uh-uh. 8 Q. The company Laundered these clothes for the 9 workmen? to A. Yes. 1 1 C>. You can't think of any ot.her precautions 12 that you observed being taken by Monsanto to protect ) 3 its workmen from exposure to PC'B's? 14 A. No. I never saw anybody wear a mask or 3o If. f or t.h . } 6 Q. 1 want, to focus your attention now on the l 7 m a t t (5 r s that took place after t h o problems of Pt'R ' a 18 came to liqht in the J 9 6 0 ' s . Do you know what 19 I'm - 2 0 A . In other words, you're, after, certainly , 21 post I960; you 'ru up to 1968, would you say? 2 2 Q. Yes. Tti the period of time where. 2 3 A. All right. I'm with you. 2 4 Q. - where there comes a - 2 Vi A . Rnvi. ronaenta I. concern. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000465 -> 'i I Q. Yiis. 2 A . Ye*. A33 right. 3 Q. Now, you wiit'o Involved In gome of the 4 responses that Monsanto made to these concerns, were 5 y ou not? f> A . To what, concerns? 7 Q. The environmental concerns, the concerns 0 about the potential hazards of PCS'a. 9 A. I responded to who? I was -- 1 0 Q. You were involved in some of the response 1 1 that Monsanto made to those concerns. 1? A. To the environmental people? 1 3 Q. Yes, the concerns -- 3 4 A. No. No, I wasn't. t r) t wa3 aware of what was going on; but 3 6 I don't recall responding, in any significant, way, 17 dii'ectly to the environmental people. No, E don't 3 fl remember that. 1 9 Q. No. I'm sorry. That isn't, what 1 meant, to 2 0 ask. 21 You were involved in a part, of the 2 2 response that Monsanto made to those problems and 2 3 concerns, weren't you? 2.4 A. Actually, I wasn't. 2.0 Now, 7 want, you to consider something NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000466 i 'j I hero. I rot l rod in 19/4. Now, you retire at fi'5. 2 In companies, they tend to put you on the shelf, may .3 I say, certainly five yodrs prior to retirement, 4 maybe earlier than that. Now. by and large, whal. 9 you're <j o 1 n g to run into in this period of! time, r. f. w a a if you'll allow me to way it. in quotes - on 7 the shelf. H I was not. in the directive! line. This 9 does not mean that T did not know. in general, what 1 0 wag going on; that I d:i d not. maybe talk to someone 1.1. about t hi :? . But when things were handled -- and 17 you're up t. O 19 - - would you want. to go t.o '7 0? 13 Q We 1 l , y o u t nL1 me. I 4 A . Let ' s go to J970. i r> MR. CRAWFORD: Weil, Mr. Ben ignua, 1 6 he's got a document there that I'm sure - 17 THK WETNESS: I know he has. J 0 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, why don't you let. 19 him ask you about it; and then we'll move on a ?0 little faster- here? 21 THK WITNESS: 1 still haven't got. t.en 2 2 to say what Z wanted to explain. 73 Q. (Hy Mr. I.ac.ey) Well, why don't, you go 7 4 ahead and explain what you want to explain? 2h A . Y o u know Hill 1' a p p a q e o r g e ? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000467 f> 1 Q. C think you asked me yesterday. [ ' vn hoard 2 the nai, but. I've not met the man. 3 K . Oh, I didn't know t his. 4 Q. Yeah . 5 A . 1 didn't know t h i 3 . 6 Q I've not yet. met. the man 7 A . He was called to h a n d L o these things -fl Q And ..... 9 A . - specifically. And he did. 1 0 Q When he came .in. you, as you say, got put 1 l the shelf? ) 2 A. No, 1 don't nay because Pappageorge l 3 .arrived. I'm trying to tell you that [ was on the 14 shelf somewhat. 1 already told you that. I spent, a 15 lot of my time traveling ex-C/.S. and this sort of 1 6 thing. 1 7 May I s ea the document? 18 Q. Surely. I've got a document here. Ct'3 19 numbered 508 through 511. And it's a letter that 20 appears to be dated Aut7ust 6, 1970, on Monsanto 21 Company letterhead 2 2 A . tJh-h u h . 2 3 Q , - and signed by you. For some reason, X 2 4 don't have any addressee on the Letter, I don't 2 5 know who it. wan sent. to. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000468 I A . Oh, that ho I ps. 2 Q . Yeah, that. ] a a b j g help, i nn 1 t. it? .3 A. Well --4 Q. Did you normally, when you had letters 5 typed up, .show on there who you sent it to? 6 A. This one went to you right now. And we're 7 talking about what we talked the other day, 1016. B This, 1 think, was left open so that 9 people'3 names would be stamped on because this 1 0 t. h i n g received wide circulation - l l Q . (/ h -huh. 1 2 A . ..... ex-Ll.S. - I mean ex-Monsanto. 13 Q Okay . 1 4 A . This went, as an information pi ece to our 15 A rocLor 1242 customers. It compares 10 16 w i t h ] 6 A roc J or 12 4 2 -- 17 Q . N o w 18 A. --- which was an assignment 1 had. 19 Q . Okay. 2 0 THE WITNESS: And what's the date of 21 that? 2 2 MR. CRAWFORD: August 6th, 1970. 21 A. ALL right. That is approximately when 2 4 Aroclor 10)6, I think we will find, was being 2 5 introduced, 1970. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000469 - n 1 Q. (Hy Mr. Lacey) And you wore Involved In 2 that, were you not? 3 A . Yes, J wa. T was the one r ea l )y involved 4 In covering this with our capacitor customers. 5 {> . You were involved in trying to get them to 6 take on that product? 7 A. T was - yes. 1 was my duty was to show 9 them the difference in It and that we say there is 9 essentially no difference; that, if you people are l 0 wilting to accept this, it's a stop in the right 1 1 direction to he1p satisfy the environmentalists; if l 2 you're w i. L l i n < j to a c c e p t this, Monsanto is willing 13 to make it and supply it. in replacement for 1242 if 14 you so approve of it. This is what it was. 1 h J was giving them specifically - - 16 there's a specification, isn't tliore, a comparison 1 7 of those specifications? 18 Q. Yes. There's attached a specification 19 for 2 0 A. 1016? 21 Q. -- 1016 and for 124 - 2 2 1 2 4 2. 2 3 Q . - 1 2 4 2. 2 4 A . This is exactly what, this thing is, yes. 25 Q. Now, I've got another what appears to be NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000470 .4 1 1 t another copy oE that letter -- and I want you to 2 compare it and let me know it it is Document 3 15504 through 15508, that apparently Indicates a 4 copy of that letter was sent to Mr. Hobert. E. Abbe, 5 ARM E. r A. "Abbe" at G.E. 7 Q . "Abbe"? With G . E . ? a A. All right. It says here, "You requested 9 this amount, and the" --- "the samples are being sent i o to you . " i i And Dr. Munch had analyzed -- or had 12 tried this in our laboratory with experimental 13 capacitors and found them satisfactory. l 4 Q. Okay. Dr. Munch was a scientist there that lb was -- t 6 A . Yeah . 1 7 Q. He was developing different dielectric 18 fluids in response to 19 A . Yea, he was. And this was one -- 20 Q. This was not the only dielectric fluid? 2 1 A . Oh, no. We were trying additional things 2 2 to this . This is the same thing here. 2 3 Q Yeah. Appears to be the same letter, does 2 4 it not? 2 b A. This is exactly the same thing, yes. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000471 i i I Q Now, lot: in e show you 2 A . And t. h i s is - sup, it. has Abbe at. CJ . K . , .3 which would have been the Lanjos t user. 4 J f they weren't going t o u s e i t. , t h e 5 thing wouldn't go at all. They did use it and we 6 went, to that. but. it didn't, satisfy the 7 environmentalists. 8 Q. Okay. I.et. me show you another letter. 9 Document 812 through 516, dated February 18th, 1971, ) 0 and signed by you. Is that, another one of your t l L e t h e r s involving this 1016 -- 1 2 A . v e n , it. is. 13 Q - problem'? 1 4 A . Yes, it is. 1 5 Now, this gives more information. Our l 6 laboratory now, in '71, has completed Life tests 1 7 It takes time, you know. This is our additional 18 information. And, yos, this is a LI of tills, the 19 results of life t.e t.s - 20 Q. Okay . 2 1 A . -- giving these people the benefit, of what. 2 2 we have observed. 2:1 Q . And then I have what. I believe is another 2 4 copy of that letter. Document 15696 through 15701, 2 5 indicating a copy of that, letter was sent, to General NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000472 V w .. t KLuctric at Hudson Fa L 1.3, Now York 2 A That ' s Abbe aqain. .1 Q. Okay. Well, I don't see his name on that. 4 Wou 1 d the Hudson Kails, New York, be Mr. Abhe? 5 A . Well, it means that Location, yes. Abbe 6 was the - - Abbe was the direct -- the director c>f 7 materials. He would bo the one wo would contact. a Q On the. second page of that letter, if you 9 would turn -1 0 A . This one? 11 u. Yes, that letter. 1 2. in the fourth paragraph from the end. 11 you say, "We have an extensive rosearch protjram on 1 4 materials for use in capacit.or dielectric systems." l 5 Do you soo t ha t - ~ 1 6 A . Where do I see that? On the second page? l 7 Q. Yes. Right there. i a A . Oh. "We would be most pleased to have you 19 visit" -- no 2 0 Q. No . 21 A . Oh, all right.. I'm sorry. 2 2 "We have an extensive research program 21 on materials for use in capacitors die" yes. 2 4 Wo -- at th 13 point in timo Munch had set up a 2l. laboratory facility to impregnate and life test NELLMCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000473 i o / t experimental possible replacements llor I'CH'a , And 2 this waa one of them. .3 Q. When - now, t h i. a actually was a pen 4 prod ire t., though, wasn't, it? 5 A . Oh, yes. This is a PCD, and this Is why it 6 didn't, fly. To 7 Q, When -0 A. Go ahead. 9 Q. When did Dr. Munch first develop a non-PCB 10 replacement fluid Cor capacitors? 1 1 A. I don't, know exactly when; but it is in 12 this time frame when we are looking for J 3 rep 1 acement.s , whether M- 1 6 or something else. 1 4 Q. Did Monsanto seek to acquire patents on any 1 f> of the replacement fluids developed by Dr. Munch? Ifi A. Yes. On -- on ono, yes. 1 7 Q . And t. h a t. was one that, you thought, had great, IH promise? 19 A . I didn't. 2 0 Q. YOU didn't? 21 A . No . 22 Q . Well, why go t.o the effort, of seeking a 2 3 patent on it, then? 2 4 A. Well, don't, ask me. 2 5 Q. Okay. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000474 > *i \ I A . I don' t mean to be - - okay. 2 Q. Did D r . Munch think it. had some p r o hi i s e ? 3 A. Why don't you ask him? 4 Q- Okay . You don't know anything about, that? 5 A . !> u r e , l know about it. 6 Q Wei 1 , tell me what, you know about, it.. 7 A . Well., you .raked for one with a patent a application; so, we'll talk about t. hat. one. 9 This was a hydrocarbon base. Now, 1 0 early on, if 1 can remember, yesterday we talked 1 l about dielectric constant, mineral oil, 2. This is 1 7. 2. And we also saw PC!B at b. 13 Now, we have a hydrocarbon base that 1 4 does not. give the capacitance for the kind of 15 capacitors that we're going to have to make, which 16 are mo tor-run a and ballast.. 17 Now, one way of increasing capacitance ia is t.o add what Munch has patented. You can read in 19 the literature. It's a diphenyl aulfone, which has 2 0 a high dielectric constant. 21 Now, there's two things about this. 2? It's qoi ng to cost, more than P C H . 1 t i a q o i n g 1o br 2 3 a Ios s y-1 y p e fluid. 2 4 Q . A w h a t. ? 2 5 A. bossy, b O - - it's going to have dielectric NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000475 I lossoa higher - 2 Q. Okay . 3 A. -- than one wants to deal with. 4 Now, this was submitted to Che General b Electric. Company and other people. And the response 6 was along this lino you are aware nothing is 7 going to fly in this business unless G . K . adopts 8 it. Wo can assume this. 9 Their reaction to this was: "We have 10 enough trouble; with lossy dielectrics that we are 1 1 already trying to find as replacement for PCD, and 12 wo object to this Cor that reason." They were not 1 3 interested. It. did not go coimnercial . t 4 Now - - lb Q. Could it have been used as an alternative l fi capacitor fluid in capacitors that were then being 1 7 filled with PCD'a? 18 A. Could it have been? 19 Q. Yea. 2 0 A. Dr. Munch, in his laboratory, made 2 l capacitors th.it he thought were all right. 2 2 Q. They worked? 2.1 A. it could they worked, granted. 2 4 Q . The problem was that you couldn't, get G . E . 2*5 to buy - NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000476 4u- I A . TO U3I! It. 2 Q. - t. obuy t h i a fluid instead of PCH'a? .1 A . Yes. Of Instead ofother t h L n g 3 , what 4 they're using now. b Q. Were you ever involved in any discussions 6 about simply ceasing to sell Pen's so that ci.K. 7 would use other fluids? 8 A, Not in those terms, no, it I understand 9 what, you said. I'm not sure I did. l 0 Q. Well, Let me make it - 1 1 A. Let's explore what you want. l 2 Q . Let me make it clear. ) 3 A. Yes. 14 Q. Surely. ] r. G.K., as I understand what you're 16 telling mo, basically said, "I'd rather buy your 1 7 WCH's than this alternative that Or. Munch has come l 8 up with." 19 A. No, I'm not saying that at all. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. What 1 said -- and their laboratories were 2 2 closed doors at this point in time. They said, "We 2 3 all" - "arr already working with 1o s s e y dielectrics 2 4 as a possible re p l acement. " 2 b 1 know what they had in mind. They NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000477 I had i. n mind p h t h a l a t e ea ter, specifically d ioc ty l 7 phthalate, which they were working on. And they 3 began the life teat in 1972. 4 And J guess we're in that framework of 5 time, somewhere .around there. 6 Now, they had come to Monsanto and 7 asked Monsanto to suppLy dioctyl phthalat.e. Prior a to that and along at this point in time, Monsanto 9 had sampled G.B. with Santis izer 7 LI. Now, to make 1 0 this simple, Santi sizer 711 is a phthalate ester l i just Like D 0 P is a p h t h a l a t e ester. J 2 You don't want the whole explanation. 13 La that why you're s m i. Ling? 14 Q. No. Go ahead. l 5 A. don't know what to say. 1 6 Q. No. No. Just go ahead. You're -- you're 17 explaining. Go ahead and finish explaining. i a A . Well, do you want the explanation? 19 Q. Ye*. Absolutely. ?.o A . Real 1y ? 2 1 Q. Yes . 7.2 A . ,f thought you were - started smiling 2 2 0 . No . '? 4 A . If you're sincere, 3' 11 take the time 2`5 Q Go ahead and explain i t. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000478 iu / I A . All r l g l\ t , Monsanto had Sant ia izcr 711, 2 and that ' a a phtha1 ate eater with a - one chain of 3 a oven carbons and another chain oC 11 carbons. 4 Di octyl phtha late has one chain of eight, carbons and 5 another chain of: eight carbons. Roth arc p h t h a l a t e 6 esters. You can't. - - they're like two peas in a 7 pod . 0 We offered Sant, is i 2r 711 t.o G . K . , 9 which we made. We weren't making OOP. Later they 1 0 would ask u a t.o do so. We didn't.. 1 1 Rut they did not accept Monsanto's 1 2 711. The reason: It was a tick worse on dielectric 13 constant, not a great thing. It cost more. And 1 4 that, is important. 1 b The other thing is they knew they 16 could get DOP on -- on the market, like a commodity, 1 7 rock and qravel. And this ia what. t. hey were looking l 8 for, Roth products had the same limitations of 1 9 being an eater, subject. t.o hydrolysis and 2 0 oxidation. So, why should they go with what 21 Monsanto offered? 2 2 They were looking at. 1") 01`, and this w a a 2 3 in th i s time frame. 2 4 Q. You were offering them alternatives in the 2`i 19/1 time frame? NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000479 a 1 A. To PCR; yes. And this isn't tho only 2 alternative that was offered. Another alternative 3 was another hydrocarbon, which was later adopted, 4 that type thing, by West, in gho use, which they had 5 researched probably prior to this time we had 6 sampled. 7 You can say, "Well, why didn't, they 8 adopt that?" Well, ours - I'm talking about 9 isopropyl biphenyl -- ours was more expensive than 10 they felt their economics they adopted 1. 1 eventually - ray understanding, they now use 1 2 something coming from this area, a hydrocarbon, 1 3 quote, "isopropyl biphenyl." They call it that, t 4 it's an off-stream from a petvoleu# hydrocarbon. IS And the point, to all of this is - and lf> I want to make Lt the time that P<18 manufacture 1 7 terminated was the exact time when CJ . R. went to 18 market with dioctyl phthaLato. Monsanto always said 1 9 as soon as anyone --- we, anyone -- on the outside 20 has a substitute, out; because the company was 2 1 ordered to shut down. The only reason they were 2 2 making It was because of the insistence and the plea 2D of the electrical industry and the KFA. 2.4 Q. When - - when had Monsanto decLded that it 2 S would stop producing PCH'a as soon as there was an NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000480 i us I a l ternat. L v e ? 2 A. As soon us there was an alternative and 3 G.S. stopped buying eCR, that was the end of: it. 4 Q. Well, let me let me separate those two 5 apart tor just a ancond. 6 Axe you telling me that, by 1970 7 Monsanto was committed to stop selling PCR'3 as soon 8 as there was an alternative product for use in 9 capacitors and transformers? 1 0 MR. CRAWFORD: If you know. 1 l A. Ct -- 1 2 THE WITNESS: I do know. 1 1 A . you've asked t he question. To my 1 4 knowledge, this is it.: The very top of Monsanto - 15 and this Ls in response to the YDSHO thing. 1 6 0. (By Mr. l'.acey) YDS HO, you're talking about I. 7 the Japanese - - ] n A . Yes. 19 Q. -- Incident? 20 A. When they shut down in Japan, that meant, 2 l our plant shuts down in Japan, too, not only the 2 2 Japanese. 2.T Q . W1: e ti did that, h a p p e n ? 2 4 A. i: t - it was around 1968 or somewhere in 2 5 t. hat. period. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000481 I Q . So Monsanto ' i.' C R p l ,i n t in .fap.in w a s s h u l 2 down in the ltitc it i x I 1 e r, 7 ' 1 A . 0 h, yen. 4 Q Okay. 'j A . I w o u l d :? <i y so. f\ Q Ok ay . 7 A. Tl never rea.l]y not. noing , because 1 was 11 `.lent over there to try to market and hod no success. 9 Q. And shortJy after that, the Japanese L 0 A. They had no time for the Japs to life test 1 1 and a 1 1 that.. And shor l)y after it, boom, the l >. emperor you know, they shut down their own place, ] :t they're noi ncj to shut u s . There's no point, in our 1 4 try inii to f i g h t the emperor of Japan. 1 b Q. okay. 1 6 A . Now, 1 e t ' s g e t back here. The YllSHO t. h i n <J 1 7 is the thing of: very pronounced influence on PCR. IB T * m not saying it was fuily unci er s tood . It was a 19 marked inElunncc, ?0 T ti <r directive, a s l u rider .*< t a n d t b i s ?. I Paul neniejnus speak i ng we are making someth ing 7? that i not. wanted. l> i in p .1 e t. o understand? ?..] Q. res. 7 4 A . Cl e t o u t. . 7S Now, Monsanto proceeds to do thin. it NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000482 I w a s ir 1 t d i f f: i < u 1 t i n t h o a Dim 1 nr tr ina l bee au ao the re 2 were subst i tail. o n - o ) subfit. i Lntea could easily b e 1 prov Lded. 4 T n t h o o 1 e ct.i i cal i ndu a try a nd t h e l5 reason I ' m to l 1 L n q y o u t h l a - I q o t. a p h o im call 6 from G . K . " 1)0 n r.it. 1 e t. Honsan 1.o t.ak e p r e c i p i t o u s 7 action to S t) u t u 3 down as ha 3 been a l read y don o L n fl n o n t: 1 e.c t. r i c a J . ft 9 My r e s p o n se t o this is : "1 know what l 0 11 in e ana . Y o u d o n ' t have to tell me that it runs 1 1 1. h < ' r ,i s k - i t y an cun' t. get PCll's for capacitors l 2 a n <1 t r a n a r o r mors, you ' rn qoi.ru; ho say It's going to 1 '1 run the risk of shutting down power ?ui pp 1 .i e s . " And I. 4 T b L iove it would have. It would have b o e n a v o r y 1 S liprjoiiB thing t o d o . 1 6 They d i. d not h a v e a f: L re re s i. a ta n t 1 / r p .1 a c v. in e n t. . We k n o w t. his,. W e ' r e talking ht:rt> l fi about of torts to find replacements. None, of: th(i so. 1 9 were fire resistant. Now - 2 0 Q. Thor o p l a c o m e nts t hoy ultimately use d 2 1 weren1t fire resistant, either, wore they V 2 2 A . That1 s true, too. 2 3 t> Okay . Go a head . 24 A. Now, they pie aded, "Don 1 I: h h u t d o w n . 1) O li 2 li s h u t. u s off . " NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000483 r said, "You're; lalklng ho l. h? wrong quy . You better- got vour very t op people and come Into Ht. fiouid and talk ho the ' r r y hop poop I o nh Monsanto." ')' h i fl a<: t u a I I y hap p e n e d , T h i r: , they did. 7 Q . Who did they talk t. o V (3 A . They 1 n; not speaking only tor t h e in s e 1 v e s . 9 They're speaking for the .industry. And because of i n this, and the Government, al.so I'm saying the l i KHA -- it's my u nd e r s I. a n d i n q that, the HI PA a iso said, i .? "hook, if I- h i n m o,i ns shut down power supply in this 1 3 country, you're going to have to find some way to l 4 p r o e o ft d w i. I . h o u L d o i n g h hat. " ]l. 'Phi e n r o m e a h hi i S P i h. a a 1. i o n : A g r e e m e n l 1. 6 by all concerned to p c o e e o d o n h h e p r e in i s e 1. h a t 1 7 r. a p a o .i t. o r s and t. r a n fi f o i in e r a a r c hi e rmel. i ca i J y L H sealed. And they c ontlmifi d t o s u p p l y , pond i ng a 1 9 rep]acement. 0 Now, Mon !i a ri t o h a d t h e s o + hi nq s . 'J' hi e r 2 1. were other things. Non o o t h h o in f 1 e w f: o r u c . A n d , 7 2 a a I s ay, w h e n t h < a h u t. d o w n r i: a 1 1 y r.me wa ft when 2 1 G . K . inn o n n c ed a nd d i d t/ o 1; o ma r k o h. w i t h 0 0 P . And 2 4 l ha t ' h t li e end of i t and Ihe a n wet to it. 20 Q . 0kay . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000484 1 A - Thai ' a t h e Haee q uuoo n ccoe of it. 2 Q. So, who n (' . K s a .id, " W c ' r e no 1 o ni ) e j () o i nrj .3 to need -- need PCH 1 s, Wo no Longer u ... A . That, w a n the end of it.. 9 Q - "want to buy thorn," then M o 13 a a n 1. o a a i d , f. "We're g o 5 n g t. o !) h n t down production i y 7 A . Thai: ' a iny understanding of: i t . a Q Okay . And the very product. a that, were lined 9 In iMpaci fora and tvanaformnra in lion o I: PCfl'a wore J o ai ready aval 1 abl e i n J 9 7 0 , weren't, they 7 11 A . Yea , 1. hoy we ni . 1 2 Q . Okay. l 3 A . Yea, they wo re . 1 4 Q. And had Mermanto 3 topped making PC'H'n in I'i 19/0, t h e t r a n a t o finer and capacitor people won Lil 1 f> h a v e qouo t. o t h e. very p> r o d u c t. a t. h c y c v e n l. u a M y d i d l 7 go L o i. n Lieu o 1: 1? C R ' a ? 1 n A Thin i a n't. exdcUy right. No , I d o n ' t. 19 agree with th i . 2. 0 Q What wou J d l Li e y have gone t o? 2 l A They - - wpi t, a 1 L right. You 're think! ng ?:* t. h i a t h rough f OT y o in lie] f , a n d .1 d o n ' t mean to g e t 2 3 i n t. o a d e b a h o o n h h i a a u b j ec 1. . ? 4 v> I i u H t want, t o know y o u r t. e. n t 1 III o n v ?r) A t agree 0 0 l' wa a a va i L a b l e . C a cj r (.3 e t. h .i 1. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000485 <t , 4 l isopropyl biphenyl was a v a i I d b L o . T. <t i 3 a g c e e with ?. your t. hinkinq - bee a nr; e Iherc j s a big void in what, :i you are saying bncaiiso I:hosh things were not tos tod 4 and probed and proved nut - that, it would be p f(M3 ibln, sab: l.o qo to m.irko t w i. t h HOP, 6 If you think it. was an easy thing to 7 determine this, f assure you It was not. And after a DO - G. K . did q o to market, with OOP and Monsanto <) shut oft! - - did stop produc i.mj P c fl, I can assure you i n there were some companion fiat, on their face because 11 thoy were not able - they no longer had the PCB. i ?. They had nothing. And that, was a very difficult 1 :1 situation. We ..... we were called things tit at weren't ] 4 t. o a n i c. v. . i s Q. ( see. I m/i ' t. it. a fact that t. he decision l 6 of Monsanto to keep manufacturing PCR ' s a I: tn r it had 1 7 a .1 t.e mat. i v e p ro d nets a n d o t. h r r a h a d alt. e r n a t. i v e 1. H p rod lie tS a v a i 1 a b 1 e w a s influenced by the far t t h 1 9 Monsanto made a ] o t. o f money selling PCH's7 7.0 A . No , i. I: was n o t . No, s i. r . ?. 1 Q Had noth .i n q t o do wit. li .i t. ? 2 ). A . No , 3 i C , 1. t ha d nothing to do with i. t . 7: 1 Q Ok a v 7.4 A . No sir. i t d i d It o t . 2 ';> Q I.e t. m e a s k y o u about your work with t. h e NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000486 1 1 A in o r i. c .i n N a I. i. o n a L 9 t a n d a r d s L ns t i tut o C o m in i, t. tei; 2 C- 1 07 . 3 A . Yes. T ti i M now, von 'to. up to 19 7 (l . 4 Well, that wag published in '72 or '73. Thoro 5 wa f. ME. CRAWFORD : Let ...... lot him ask you 7 i (1110 3 t Ion so we can 9 T fJ R W 1 T N K 9 9 i 1 t. h o u g h t h e d i d . 9 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, h <5 ' 3 (jot a 1 0 d o c \nn o n l. there that he'll probably want, to ask you l l about. 1 2 Q . (Hy Mr. baccy) Yon were the chairman of 1 3 the sl ee cinq com mi tteo on the 1 4 A. Thin i*i what 1 was qoinq to say. l ?> Q. Okay. Tell me about that. J6 THE WITNESS: Now 1 now should 1 l 7 pro c ao d ? 1 fl MR. CRAWFORD: Well, yen. 19 Q . (n y Mr. f, a c e y ) Y e s , 2 0 A. T hate to take the time. Wo 1 re qo.inq l. o 21 have to jo soon. 7? ME. Ol.KSKN: That's the. problem. 2 3 There's a half hour, Wo don 'I. know how much more 2 4 you want, him t. o do and - 7. S MR. f.ACEY: Well, l don't know It' NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000487 1 i h I we' re (jo i nq to make i t or not. All wo con do is l 2 can ask the. questions j n d ho can answer them and 3 we'll 3sr LI: wo qot thro noli it all. C don't know 4 what, to do. b MK. Hi A W F OKI) : Okay. l,et. ' r: q o . 6 MR. LACUV: I'm askinq them. 7 A. f was elec'tod to be chairman. Now, as i rt a L r a d y told yon, I was on t h o shelf: at t h L s t i. m e . q Q. (Hy Mr . I.acey) Okay. 1 0 A , Rxc R|)l. I did know people. The transformer 1 } in a k e r s and the c. a p a c i to r makers, I knew those people 1 '7. t h v o u <j li 1. h e y o a r a . 1 3 0 W e r you an inf1 u e n t i a .1 person with t. hose l 4 peo p l e ? 1 b A . They didn't di s J ike me. 1 e t. m e say. 1 b Q - Okay . Wha t you -- what y o u h a d to say - 1 7 A . They knew me. And T was u s d t o o i q a n i v.e l 0 thlg thlnq. A l S.i Lix.iv at ANSI had t. ho Government 1 9 back) nq, the funds and support; but he didn't, know 2 0 who to Invite. I knew this. And, so, wo drew up a 2 1 list of people who should all be invited. And this 2 2 was very broad representation. 2 1 Q . Now, Mr, Stt.la?dr Was with the N a t i o n a l > 4 K I. o cti'i c a l Man u I: a c t u r e r s A s a o <: ration, c o r r e c t ? 2 b A, Hul. he was also secret, ary of .... he was also NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000488 i l w L 1; h ANSI!. 2 Q . Okay. 3 A . On t h i n - .i n l b .i it a r e a a n ci in h o in f' in 4 some other -jrisas . s 0 Now, l tic N a 1 j o n a 1 K 1 e r t r j r a l M a n u f a c t vi r o' r ft fl A 3 s o c. i a h i. o n i a a trade o c<7 a n i. 7. a 1; L o n of people ; i ike. 7 Wes t j nq h cniao a ml General Klectr ic and A1.1 i ft C h a 1 m e r ft 8 and Ma loony a n il o 1: h e v h ? 9 A . Yen. BherPris A N81 i a really - - represent. 9 1. 0 (I o v o r n m o n K , o nja n in.iti.ons, and ovorybody, t h e l*'DA 1 1 a n d t h o Rut oa u Hi a n d a r d s and the K1' A and th o _... l 2 1; h e - o v orybod y i n 0 . Okay , 1 4 A . - i nd u ft t. / y , i n h t 1 t n t i o n a J a , u n i v e r s i t i e ft , 1 8 and no o n and a o r. o r t It . Yen,, t his i s <: o r T'ct e t 1 f. Q Now , t. h e V. h i ft ft t e e r 1 ri q ct o ui mi t l e e for 1. h o 1 7 A N 8 r C 1 11 7 c/ron p , y o u e.1 L u a 1 L y c h a i. r e d t. h a t i n r o m in i t t c e. , d i cl n ' t you ? 19 A . T h i 3 i a what, you' re roadimj; so, y e s 2 0 Q I m ci a n , i ft 1 lui ! iic c u r,) t. c- ? 2l A. Th o y on 1. led mo o it , no. r was r. \\ii i r ;i\ a n 2 7 of t. hp <t t e e ri n q r. o in in ,i 1.t e o . 3. 1 Q . Vi*3 . 3 4 A . !: x c. use me. Yon , T li a l. , v e ft . 2 r> Q . And what. did that L it v o 1 v o ? - NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000489 I A . As I- a l rfidiiy said, ,i s chairman of tho 2 steering committee, 1 participated there in getting .3 this thing organized and getting it together (J n 4 liehal f of Al Salazar, to get. thin thing going. 5 Q. Now, the actual chairman of the committee ft a ft it. final wound up 7 A . R i g h I.. . a Q was Mr. K' a ppag e. orqe , wasn't i t. 7 9 A . You're rl gh t. ) 0 Q S o ..... 11 A . N o t in e . 1 7 Q . Ha, a Mon nan to man chaired both the I. 3 stnfii'i iig r o in in i 11 e a -~ ) 4 A . Y o u a s r. right. l 5 Q - - a n d the c o m in i t t. e e ? 1 6 A . H u t the g u y - okay. I, e t. ' J e t t h c> glory 1 7 to the - you ' to right. i a Q. What? 1 9 A. You're right, but I told you t. licit f was on 2 0 thn Shelf and Pappageorge won put in there as ? 1 chairman. He didn't do the active work, T assure 22 you . 2 3 () . Who did the active work? 2 4 A. Well, the compos it ion of these are given 2S in in l.honti lirochiu as there. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000490 * I '-i i Tli o f (' was a sup.irri tfi group l:or ?. raparitoni . Why? He can n c* they were capaci tor 3 people and knew what. thny could do i n the capacitor 4 area . f> There was? a separate nection. They fi were I: ran:) former people they knew. We didn't have / carpenter n or brickJ ayers or no forth. We asked the 8 K P A and pno p I. e l i. k e that to participate. They 9 didn't know what to do but they were invited and 10 they attended meetings, yes, 1 ] 0- Now, you and Mr. Pappageorge were on both r 2 the t r ansf; o r m e r r.onim i t too a n d the capac itor ) 3 Com m i t tee , we r en ' t. you? 1 4 A . Oh, as - as e x o f f i c i o , is it, the r R , 1 b you're ri g h t . 1 f> Q What does " e x o1 ficio " mean? l7 A. 1 don't know. [ don't know 1 fl 0. . bid ..... did y o u get to par t.i c i pat. o i n t. h o n 1 9 meet Inga? 2 0 A . T wa J ked around w h i .1 e t ti e a e q u y s wc re. 2 l working. 2 2 Q . I.e 1. me show you 2 3 A . f went from one room to the o t her. 2 4 Q I.e t. in e show you a Dociimcnt 0200?1. And 2 b this h a s g o t t h e a c t u a i members o n those NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000491 I e o m m i I; I: e e u ?. A . That ' s w h at. r wan t.a Ikin g a h out.. 3 Q. -- d 0 0 s n ' t i t ? 4 A . Yeah . Y e a . b (2 No w, w e r e t h e re any r 0 p r e seniat.i vt:f! of the 6 Oil those c 0 m m i t. t e e:? ? 7 A . Tli 1 s i s w ti a l J a 1 r e a d y said. K P A was 9 in Vi ted t 0 p a r t i cipate. 9 What would the K P A do? The EPA did l 0 attend t h e me 0 ting s ; b u t when it. comes down to 1 1 worki n q 0 u t. t h e n i t t. y (j r i tty, we couldn't, get an EPA 1 2 guy in th ^rfi. Wo risked E P A to .it tend all of our J 3 in e e t i ng s . t 4 Q . flh h u h . 1 !> A. And if you want, t.o (jet. into that., we'd meet. I 6 L n - - L n Chicago with I: li o R PA; a rul t h e next time 1 7 you'd meet, i n C. i nc: i n n a t i with a d 1 f f e rent R PA man. l 8 Wo mot in Washington at fidthei'sbflrq and so on. 1 9 It. -- we asked then t; people. 2 0 Q. My point in that those committees were 2 1 really made up) of two Monsanio people and, with the 7. 2 exception of one representative from the Department 7: of Army on the transformor group, the transformer 3 4 and capacitor manufacturers, weren't they? 2h A. Excuse me f or laughing. And you're going NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000492 I l-.o s a y I; his i s s e I. T - s e r v i. n g . 7 Q. I'm j u n t. dski nq who what people wore on 3 the committees. 4 A . A fl y o u see i l right, there. You're r j q h t . h Q . Okay. 6 A. This in correct. I tried to say h o w 7 come .... 0 () . Well, how did it wind up like that, that 9 A. Well., I said the people on the capacitor 1 0 qroup were people' k no w l edq ea b 1 e with capacitors; and l l the people on transformers, they were knowledgeable } 7 w i t. h t r ,i fi s f o r in ers . 1 3 Q. 7 mean, I note in re'viewing this document 1 4 that it appears that there were people from the EPA J h a lid -- 16 A . Yeah. ] 7 0. - the R K A and the TVA and others that were 1 0 on these committees, but they didn't got involved in 1 9 the working groups. 7 0 A . They didn't want, to work. They didn't know 7 t what t o do. 22 Q Okay. 7 3 A . That's that.' s all. H u t. t h e y wor e o n 1. h e 2 4 comm it t ee. 7 *) Q. Okay. Now, the National Electrical NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000493 I Mdnuf.i e t u r n r :i A 3 h o r i ii t i o n e out with t h e L r own 2 n t. a n d a r d a - 3 A, V e a , t h e y did. 4 Q. - for the hant'll i nq of PC It's in 5 t ra n n I: o r in<r s , did t he y no t ? 6 A . Yph, t hey did. 7 Q. Now, did Monsanto have a roI in doing n involved in the develop hi ent. of the National 9 R l e e t r i c a l Manufacturers Association s t a n d a rd a ? 1 0 A. From the standpoint that those NRMA people 11 are the same people that that I think you find 1 7. there on 1 h e A N5 I thing, i t. * s I - i t ' a difficult 1 3 1: o r in e t o s e pa ra to t h e s e two. T get m i. xed up wl th J 4 i t. m v s e 1 f 1 b 0 They ' re pret.ly c ] o s e 1 y r e ] a I e d - 16 A . Oh, absolutely. } 7 Q ~ - t. h t'. i n 0 a 1 r y trade group and the A N'. I ? I 13 A . A ba o l u t e l y , 1 9 Q . Almost, one and the a a m e V 7.0 A . Yes . 7 1 Q . Okay. The 3 3 A . The one is d aled 73, and E th i n k f. h e o th 3 3 o n e i ,`i d a ted '73 l(nd - 34 Q . . E think it's ' / 3 and '74, 3 b A . K x c u a e hi e . Okay . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000494 I Q. r h iippfi.u's Lli.iL -- L i! L mo show you the NRMA 7 t a n d a r cl n -- 3 A . /cab. 4 t> . -- the Nation a] HJecirica] M.i n u f a c t. u r e r a r> H33oc. i aL ion V L ' s Do r. u tn o n t 7 a 4 L h r o u <f h B l fj . i; L 6 appears they came out in January of 1973. 7 A . AIL f L qh L . a ft. And l. Lie n the ANSI nUndards, the. C-107, 9 appa rent Ly rams out i. n January of: 1974. I 0 A . yeah . I 1 ft. And that.'?! Donimerrl 728 through 763. l 7 A. fJh-ltuh, right Okay. ) 3 0 . Now, those standards, b o t. h the National L 4 (! Lee t rica l M a ituf a c turei'a Association s tan d a r d s and i a the American N a t i o n. > ] Standards ins t i t u t e l <> standards and bo tit of: those wereprepared by I 7 t ft e s e pi oups that basic, ally w ere comprised of I i) Industry people and Monsanto 1 9 A . Yea . 7 0 Q . -- than e stan d a r d n w e r e v e r v n i m j 1 a r t o 7 l each other, were they not? 7 7 A . 0 ft , t. ft e y a r e . 7 3 Q Almost. idont tea 1. ? 7 4 A . They a r e . 7 S Q Y e a h . 1'hos e. standards are considerably NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000495 1 diffm'Rnt than I; !i standards that the K P A came out 2 with on behalf ol the (iovr'j nnitMil. , are they not V 3 A. You're Ln an .ire a now where I! was out of 4 the picture. li Q . I see, 6 A. I ran not. answer t h i n . i don't, know. 7 Q. We L l , ,ini you aware o I: the fact that when U t he Ci over n hi e n t. took action its action was much 9 in ore similar t o t hat of J a p a n than to what t h e a e 1 0 i ndusir y qrou p s did? 11 A . f didn't know that, no. 1 2 Q Okay. You aren't, aware of the fact. that. l 1 the (iovo rumen t banned the in a n u 1: ao t ti r e o f PCH'a ? 1 4 A . T n Ja pa n ? 1 ri Q No. f. ix the Uni tod States. J h A . In the United Stales, banned i l., yes . Th 1.7 iMimi a 1 i. 11 t e la te r t ha n '77. ' 7 9 , 1 3 I r e m e m b e r . 1 H Is that. r i c) h t ? 19 Q . It was effective '79 2.0 A . Kf fpct.i vc 2 \ Q. - but tii"' decision was mad o a n d 2 2 1 ecj i r; 1 a l i o n p a *; s e d in '76, w a ti ' l i t V 21 A . f .ice opt what you say. 2 4 MP . CRAWKOHI) : Well, i 1 y mi know, 1 Cl nim. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000496 I A . ] d o n ' t know. 2 Q (Ry Mr . Lacey) 0 k ay . n A . was rot i n >. d . 4 Q. Okay . You do recoqni'/e 1 hat. the. C> o v e ( n in i n 1 5 a c t ion w a s eons i doiMb 1 y different than wha 1 b o i. h t h e 6 N a t i ond .1 K 1 e c. t r i r a J - 7 A . No , t don ' t. 9 Q Okay . Did either the National Kl<ictrical 9 Mfln ti llrictiirera Assoc ial1 ion or the Amor i can National J 0 91 arida r 9 s in a t. i t u t. e rec o in m e rid that. I'CH ' s be banned t l f r o m u s e as <1 L e l e c t r i o 3 ? 1 7. A . I - - 1 d <> ri ' t know. 1 w a 3 - - I w a s n 1 t. in 1.1 t h a t L i. in e , t o my know 1edge. l 4 Q Werfcn1t you on t h o k e committees - l9 A . oh . 1 f. Q . when these re port 3 were writ. t. e n 7 I 7 A . All right. 1 think you are correct. j: 19 think j've heard what, you've said. 1 9 I think, if you want a short answer, I 2 0 would have to nay "no." That, in t. h e a n n w e r . 2 l Q. Okay. Who` the Industry recommended and 2? w h a t. the C5 o v e r n m e n t. did were very differ e n t. . ,n Industry said keep on u s Ino P ("' R ' s a n d the Cnv o r n in e n t 4 said s top. 7 S MH . (' HAW);' OKI) ; Well, what t. ime frame NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000497 1 a rn you Ulkiruj a b o u t ? A . We J 1 , dependi mi o rt what, time: f r a in c von ' r e .1 t a L k i n <7 about. 4 Q (Fly Mr. bac-.-y) Well, the industry was Li s a y i. n a fi rom l 9 7 0 on, " Ko e p on u s i n >j them. W o ' v i: iJO t h to have t. h e in " 7 1 / A . Y o a , until t. h e y f i n ci a nub a t. i t. u t. e . n a Do those documents say anyl: hln<j about y 1 o oki n cj for a sn bst. i l u t e for PHI'S? l (3 A . That wasn't t he sub j e c 1. o f t h e s o I i doc u inon t h . T h o s u b j e c t. o f then e d o c. u in ents is t.o t. r y i ). a n d s o. o how to pro / e n t o ontamination of the 1 :> < n v j i"o nine n t w :i t h HCH 1 s . i 4 0 . C ami, 1l> A. That. i a what these cl o c um e n t. s arc adrtresccd r ^ t <3 . 'I'ho - - the pui'iioso of those. dociimnnts w.im not ] / to find a u bat i t. n 4. e . The purpose of these 1 n documents is to try and specify standards ns ho how 3 9 to prevent con t a in i n a t i 11 q the environ in e rt t. , o b v i o u sly, 2 0 in the continui) lion > I - of P(! R ' s . And this i. s why 2 1 .1 a q r o. c. w i t. h w b a t. y o u 1 v c: u a i d . 2 2 Q in fa c t, wa w n't L t. Mo n s a n t o ' s f) O'i i t Lon that ? .'3 il. wou J d be a l> pr c> p r 3 a 1 e t. o <* O 7i l. i n u e l i > m a n u f a c. t. u r e 2. 4 and use PCR ' s i. n the d i e 1. e c trie a i oa be c a u s o 2 S M o rt a onto wa s poind to (' n a u r e t. h a l. th > i o d u r l. n NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000498 t <i i d n ' t if o L out in t a L h o o n v i i o iimpiit (: ro in t. h o i r 2 plants and to ref u:ic to noli P r H ' a l o a n v b o d w who .1 let P('H's get oat i n 1; o the environment (iron their 4 plants? b MR. C R A W F O R I) : .( f you k n o w . (i A . t don't know, no, on that one. 7 C> (By M r . tdcey) 1 :;eo. (3 A . You ought to check with somebody else. 9 (). . 1 e e , Well, Jet. me show you a q a i n 1. 0 Docu went 2 0 02 I through 2 0 019 and direct, your ) 1 a 1 lent. ,i o n to Page 20026 and 27. t 2 A . Okay . 1 1 () . That'ft the steering c.omm it. tee a tat event. on l 4 PCII's, i 3 i. t n o t ? 1 b A. 1 would an au m e ao, yes. That's w ha t j t l f> says . 1 7 Q. You were chairman of that, a Leering I fl e o m m l I", too? 1 9 A. Yea . 2 0 Q . Okay. Arid d o w n her e i n 1 torn N o . 4 i l a a y a 2 1 that " S ti' 1c t a nd e (: f (>. c t i v c s 1. e p s have be e. n t a k e n L < > 2 7 a v o i d 1 n t to d u c X. '< o n o f PCH 1 ?: i n L o t. h e e n v ir o n ment a 1 7.1 M o n a a n 1. o ' s p 1 a n t a " 7 4 A . Y ns. 7 *. Q . " and by l h e f a c i 1 it ins u s ed w h e r e. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000499 t A s k i>. r a I - l.ypn L va n d f n r in o. r h an d capacitors a r m ado. " 2 A. This is rorrer. 1. This is what, il says. .1 Q . 0kay . 'L*i\i position that was being taken by 4 this group was that PCM's weren't going to be an b environmental problem when us ni in the electric f. .industry because the iik-irnif jct.urer, Menu unto, and 7 Hons.i n to ' s e u w tome r s we ro qo Imj to ensure t ha t I; h ey a didn't, get out in the environment; is that, correct? 9 MR . CRAWb'ORD; Well, that's his i o characterization. H e n u re you understand. i i A . i: d id not write this. t si q n <2 d - - ) ? [i, (Uy Mr. I,i.icey) Who wrote that? l A . My name is on here. 1 4 0 . .( t. w a s ghost, w r i 1.t. e n tor y o u V I `i A . E did not write this. J 6 () . Who w ro t. e i t ? l 7 A . I.' don't know. M u t - - 1 a () . Wei .1 , why i s your name: on i t ? 19 A. My n .1 m e w a s u s e d in m a n y ways. 2 0 Q. Well, did you approve the documents that, 2\ used your name be l: o r r. t hey w> n t out? ?? A . I n e s n e n c e , 1 w O ll ] d ii a v c t. o s u y yt:S Q . Oka V !1 o - 2 4 A . y e r. / i n e :< s e nc e . 2ri 0 . So , th e p o s i 1. i o n t; li a 1; the s t e e r n q NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000500 I c Diniii i t I'.i'-fi w a :? taking was t h a I. p c R ' s wi'riMi ' t going to 2 be an fiiiviionmt'ii t a I pi n b .1 e m in d i e] ec t r i c u n e 3 bacausi! Mo ns an bo, as I. ho iiunu [,u: turur, and I ho 4 people to whom Monsanto sold, as the actual UuiIdem S of: e a pad i to ra and transformers, wo no (joinq to take 6 the necessary .steps to keep them from qet. ting out. 7 into the environment? fl MR. CRAWFORD: Well, 1 will state that l) i t: s t a l: n s w h a. t their purpose is i. n the - - ho '3 read 1 0 .it. and that that ought to stand for - 1. I Q. (Ry Mr. r, a coy) And isn't -- isn't that 1 2 what - isn't, that, in sum, exactly what you were l .1 s t a t i n g ? 1 4 A . T h a t. ' ff w h a t it states 1 ri here:, yes. I. 5 Q, Now, do you know whether or not, in truth 1 6 and in fact., all of the p e o p I e t. o w h o m Monsanto sold l 7 pen's a e tuall y handled them i. n such .1 way as to i a t. h e m f roin q e 1.1 i ii q i nt.o the e n v i r o n m e n t ? I 9 A . No, I do no t. r do not. 20 Q. Would that make, any d > f f o r e n c c to you 2. I the chairman o(: the s tee ring c o inm i 11: ee , signing 2 2 d o c. u in e n t 1 i k e that ? 2..) A . K f fort was made, as i t uays horn, t o 2 4 prp vent s r> j 1 1 s into t. h c e n v 1 r o n m e n t. . That, w a a 2.9 fully a e h i e v e d . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000501  Q . Okay- And would L I; m a k o any d i l f o r n n c o t o 3. you, as the person : i qn i nq that, that that wasn't 3 actua t ly aidt invod ? 4 A. Yes. In full conscience, yes. !> 0. Okay. Did Monsanto fcako any stops, as the h in a n u f a c t. u r e r o f P C M'S, to exercise what, ever powe f it 7 h a d t o ensure t h a I: i t s r. mi tonifies didn't allow PC M ` s H to b e a pr obJe Ml? 9 A . They d.i d everythinq they could, yes. l 0 Q What d L d t h c y do with their customers who 1 1 wer en ' t. h a n d 1 i nq PCM' s ji ro pe r 1 y V I ' A . l ilon ' I; k now . You would have to check with 1 3 t h in a / k c 1.1 n q - - w i 1 h the per !io n - t. ho business l 4 d L roc ho r , I ';> () . Wc.ll, then, how can you say they did 1. fc everything in their power If you don't oven know 1 7 what t. h e. v d i d ? ] U A . A J 1 r i q h t . ')' h e n I 'll withdraw what. .1 said 1 9 and say chock into this with the top of the >.0 business, which .1 was nol . 2 1 Q. Well, would you a q r o e with mo that Monsanto 3 3 should have done civ crythi mi in their power In try 7. 1 a n d e n s u r e t h a t t h e i r c u tome r s d i. d n ' t I o t i ' (; fl ' s < j o I 3 4 i II1. o t h e c n v i r o n m e n t ? 3.`> A. L' aqroe w L t h th.it. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000502 1 Q. Okay. Now, wlm h. a I', r a I o < j y did Mons.i ntu 2 follow, from its own rorpo/rttr ; I iiiKipci.i nt , with 3 roij<i ni to rcspoiui inn to the I'CR problem? 4 MR. CRAWKOKJ): if you know. 8 A. F cannot. .inswm' th.it m y h e I. f: , no. I f. wa.un't 1 wan as 1 already told you, 1 wan on 7 in y way to ward a enti nimont, They didn't cal I. mo in a o ti t h f r e t h 5 n q . 9 0- (My Mr. baccy) okay. okav . I.et. me show l 0 y o u .\ d o e u in o nt hero. It' a p a i *: of a 1 a r q o v package, 3 1 t> u t. t h e a c l u a 1 d o c. u in e nt h e q i ri 5i a 1 8 9 3 S and continue s 1 2 t h r o iirj h tl 9 i 7 , T t. ' :? a in o in o da tnd March 22nd, 19 7 2 - i n A . Y ti s . 1 4 (> . - f i run nr . M u n c h t. o M r . flosaaqc, w j 1. h a 1 fi copy to v on, i a it n o t. ? 1 f. A . Yeah, I'm copied i n h e r e . 1. 7 0. l) l d you 3e that memo and the at: tao. h m e n t s 1 8 to i l.V 1 9 A . What, was the date on this y 2 0 Q March 77ml, 1. 9 7 2 , 7 1 A . If 1 was in the conn try. 1 ii aw it : and 1 2 7 wonLd h ,ivn ffiCft i veil it. T ' in was on her e : s o , r 2 1 a f; r: i i m , fioinewtiere < i 1 o ri q the J i ri e , 7 received i t . 2 4 Q . And this document sot f o r t h t h e s t r l 1 egy ;>.ii with r ( qaid to dio J ec ti i c s and PC'H ' !l 7 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000503 l A . res . ?. Q Okay . .3 A . I . undot's ta ltd this. <\ Q Okay. R A . dormoL 6 Q Now, a r e y o u t. c: .1 1 i ri q m v. you cl i dn ' t. h v r a n y ! part In lio rmn 1 a t i n g t h at strategy ? R A . No, I did not. 9 Q Okay. You j u g t got copied on it so you d 1 0 know what it. wa? l l A . 1' go t copied on it, yes. ) (3. . Okay. A n c'J J) r . Munch would he more f ami liar 1 3 w i. h h w h a t 1; h e a c 1: a a L h l:r.i I'.fiijy 3 4 A . He wrote it. l ri Q (le w r o t o t h e c o r p ora tn strat n y ? 1 6 A . Bell, it c: wrote the - - this - t. h i s - 1 1. / don't know i. f! he ' n transmitting what was wr: i 11 e n by ) R r< o me one: else. ) 9 " T h e a l t. a c h e d ti a s " i t says 3 0 ''strategy" -- "strategy has boon revised on t h o O IT O 2 1 sent with my memo of M a t rh 17th.1' 2 2 ontc thing was - - w a s r o v i sod. a n d h O 2 3 s e ri t t. h is to (lossaqt:. G o s sage is t.h e one you 2A should - 2ti Q M T . G o s s a q e wou) d b t: able to t. a .1 k NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000504 l A . Y O :! . ?. Q .. ,, t. o u s u l) out t h a t ? 1 A . fRS. 4 Q okay . bet mo show you another document. 5 0 V h .1 h h r <j (kt h H 7 ft l> , d.i teit J u n e A A ni.t , 19 7 1. i n |; h .t t. a h document that. you wro1o ? 7 A . Yen . H f> A n d you w i o 1. e it t. o - 9 A . r 1: h Ink so. 1 0 H e t. e r Mar s h in - - in D ninspJ s . 1 l Q Okay . And you copied a number of! people 1 2 a b n u l t h a * d o c u in ml , c o r i rc l. "> t A . C n p i <'i.t i.n a number of people, r i. rjht, 1 4 0 . .1 nc l udincj Mr. CJosaacfe? 1. 4 A . Yea . 1 f. (> 0 i . M u n c h ? 1 7 A . YOU . 1 ft Q . Dr . )i i c hard V 1 9 A . A l L t. h e s e here. '7 0 Q Does 11) i s d e s r r i b e l h e. i n f o r in a l. ion t h a t. y n u 2 l acquired reqa rdinir PCH's and the sales prospec 1 n toe 7 '7 AskareJ s ? / 1 A . T h i s i s what i t. d i s c. u s s r s , y e s . 'I1 h i s d e a 1 s >. 4 w i L h r a i. 1. r o a d f. ran s f o r in e r a . 7 1. O . A n d t. h e i e j 11 a e e in c1 ri l of P c H 1 s an t. h ft f 1 u i d NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000505 I In Hinm? 2 A. A chanqp - what T've rend <i o far i , 3 to ropldofi A roc lor I 7 fi 0 with 1244, That's not 4 replacing PCH ' a . ft's; replacing one I'CH with 4 a n o I. her I'CH . I 2 tS 0 is h x a o h L o r o b i phony l . This i y f. p e n t. a c h I o r o b j phony J 7 0 . Okay . 0 A . S o , i t ' k r e placing o n o w j t. h armt hot 9 0. All r i q h t . r n 1: h o third par a gra ph , 1 0 a d i h c u a k i on to - a ref c rfiiicn to a discussion you t l h a <1 w L t; h C! o n e r a I. K I or. trie's Washington, D . C . , J 2 poo p1e - I 1 A . fJ h huh. 1 4 C> . .... a b i > u l R e p r psontat. ive Ky a n ' s b i I J . l4 A . (J h - h u h , j 6 (> . Wha t. ` n that a i J abou t.? l V A. Ryan u<is a <: o n <j ro s s ma n . 1 H () . And what bill was that? l 9 A. T don't know. This was something in 2 0 Cong res a, had t.o do w i t. h the Mouse of 2 1 Representatives. It was iiepro:: ontativu Ryan. 7 7 That was a n a in > t h a t. k e p t <' r n p p i ti q u p . 7. 1 Q. Rut you don't know whv? 74 A. You. 'It kept r r o p p i ri q u p j n t h i s - thin 2 4 a. roa ol oC lJ C H and environmental -- Ryan was a NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000506 l n .i in e L \x v t knp f. c i ( ppinq up, HH e wa s'3 qquuiitteo a.i cctI-. (L .v/ oo 2 i n - n t. h i a a r r> a of the e n v .i r on in o n t a ] th.inq. 1 MR . C R A W F 0 R D : Du V i d , how are you 4 (loi nq y We ' i e J i (|h t o fi b : 0 H c> 1 <: 1 o e. k . b MR . f. A 0 R Y ; I'll q U o u a may b e 2 0 b hi i n u l. c u T h a t. w o u .1 d b c: m y q vi e .* n . 7 MR . CRAWFORD: That would bo b;10. H T H K WTTNRSSi We faiiM. do that.. 9 MR . CRAWFORD: No. 1 0 THR W T T N K fi Ft : No, we can't do that. 1 1 MR . 0 l? A W F 0 R D : No. ) 2 T H (: V 1 DKOCIK A T'HKK : I'm ready. 1 T MR . CRAWFORD: What do you want to ] 1 d o? H a v e. V o vi qi) t. another t. en in ,i n vi t. e n or somethinq L b If o w e c <i n make l: Iv a 1; p l a n o > 1 f. MR . LACKY : A J .1 1 c a ti d o i ,? i u ;t { k o e p 1. 7 on qo v nq t Ill you nay wo need to sL op and then w o l ft can 1. r y to conclude: thin at. come po i nt , We ' re 19 close. ? 0 MR . CRAWFORD: Yes, 2 \ MR . r.ACRr: Rut 1! don t - - you kit o w , 7 2 d on ' t. know who 1. h e l wo' f J make i l i n l on in > nut e *: o r ? .1 n o t . ? 'I MR . CKAWKOKP: Okay . W o ] .1 , t e t 1 n rj i v 7. b i. t aim 1. h n v L on mi n u b o :> - NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000507 1 2:i b i-i ttor - Till': WITNK!i:i : ALL t L h f . M IV . CKAWI-'OKI) and then w e 4 'J' H ): W 1 T N K b 1 don't w .i n l. \ o e i t! n e. 1 y r: Ml t ' :? Ill y p 1 .) n o . f Ml?. CRAWFORD : Okay . 7 MK . [, AC KY : tour flight is back to 0 S 1 . ), o u i a 7 9 MW. CRAWFORD : Yon . 1 0 TUK WfTNKtD; : Yes. Y o a h , 11 MX. 1 A C Ky : 1 n 1 h a t. the; J a s t. f ] j q h t 1 2 O U 1; t li i a (' v > n i. n < / ? ) ;t MX. CRAWFORD : That';! the problem. 1 4 T H K W r *L` N K !i .'> : You. 1 mx. i. A c: F Y : i.ast f 1 i cj h t o u t of Hobby? 1. fi MR. CRAWFORD : C don't know it it's J 7 t h c= l a is t. I ] i c ti t. . i a fi s ii m e 1 M T (t K WrTNKUS: 1 t ' 1. ll O 1 .1 :! t t 1 1 if h fc . r 1 9 )ooked into that, b km u ii o t w a s o r ,i q i n a 1 1 y - <' "1 up 1 o 2 0 d o -- - l < 3 t ' 3 nob nr- t into - 2.1 MR. CRAWFORD Okay . 2 7 tux w i'tnf:; : Y o it ' r o n <1 t 1J L li q L o :i h t i IK) t ll a t. u p t. o me , a x r y o u ') 24 MX. r. A C* K Y I q uii s s wo ' l l Let t ll .i t - - 7 b w V. 'll not w o i i y a bout t h e P a n e. . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000508 THR Wl'TNK'ii! ; What. a deal , ?. fi. (Hy Mr. l-acey) The ci.i .icussjonii o i 10c rn e m n 3 th.it you wrote about - or to Mi . Marsh - 4 A . Miir s h , y c r. . b Q. about, the rti ftcunsiona vim had with l h e b v a r i o u s Ci . K . l o , il i. d t h a t a c. c u r a t. e l v in m m a r 1 o 7 I h v various d i snission m y a u had w i t. h General rt K l e a t; r i r a b o u tr o p l a <: o m n n t 3 I! o r R G R * s ? 9 A . I hijveui ' t. read ,i t. , I don't know . I. 0 Q. Yeah, I know. I 1 A . Rut ( wouldn't, mislead - riow, we're -- 1 7. wn'v e (jot a - - 1 3 Q. Well, why don't you take a minutet. o review t 4 tha L? 1 S It's important to me that. ,T know that th.it is what you roe. al. I G. H . having in termed you. A. Yes, I would not have Generated this kind L 0 of inform.it i.on myself, uni laterally. I - f 19 wouldn't, have been able. to.'J'hin is - whytmv a 2 0 dry-type, expensive fuse? 7 1 T h ,i a i s pa s i mj a I o ug i nf oi mn l i on t lea I V 7 wn.3 given to mo. I f don't- the - the whole 23 thing wa.s of no impoi lance that l know of. 2 4 Q . 0 f no import a n c. o ? 7 S A . No. Not t h <i I i know of, no. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000509 L Q . I 3ee . ? A. it. mv sound l twit way, but it actually 3 waa n ' t . 4 MW. f'RAWKOKl) : Have wo .i d e n t j / i e d that `i with .i n u m b e i ? 6 THK W I T N R K S : I don't, know. 1 MW. f, AdRY; Yon. We previously have. H I t ' k H 7 b3 I hr ouqh 8 7 6S . ) A. Noth inq happened as a roanlt oC that, I 1 0 <i r, a in e you . 1 1 Q (by Mr. 1, a c. e y ) Okay. Y o u we re still l 2 i n h ores t ed at t h in po int, eve n to I: lie extent you had J 3 bot'ii put on the :i h e J f , .in trying to l<ee[i people 1 1 a <1 v i s o d o f p o i. e n t i. a l oppor tun i t 1 e s f o r P u v t h e r s a 1. e s 1 h o f P0H ' s l b A . I would s ay this. J 7 (> - even though you u rid e r s t o o d that i t w a a l 8 t. h e i n t e ntion o 1; Mo ns ante at t h is t i. m e to slop 1 9 m a k i n g PCH's iit< a o o n a r: r r. p 1 a c e me n t. a c. o u I d t> e 1 o u rid V 2 0 A . Yen, I would have 1. o say this. 2 1 Q. Yon't e still l ookinq t o r mark e t. a i n t h e 2 ? meant Libp. ? 2 1 A . Wet 1 , i 1 o .1 d yon this d o e an 1 1. a m o u n t t o 2.4 very much, If - - if - i. if you L n t e r o r e t t h i s a s 7 S s i tj n i f i c. a nt. t. h i nq, <i 1 ] r i rj h t. . J h a v e to ci o wit. h NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000510 I w h a t. t. h o - - wha t i s s a i >t i n t It n r o . 7 Q We J 1 , ft ' in j 11 s l l r y i fi n 3 K . I (1 i d n ' t i iino ro what - what was <j L v n m n . 4 It. has to do wi t. h c 1 e c 1 r i c t. j a i it t. r a n s f or m r, 1 ft b o 1. i n v r> ft f) . We 1 1 . t. h m e a re. cl i s r. u s s .i on s in i here about / the prospects for sol 1 i ikj p c n ' s to China, a n it od f; o r 0 I'CH's i n Russia - arc-' n ' t 1. h o ! o 1. h i n cj s disc u S S F.' d 9 thot o? J 0 A . 7 d i d n 1t rcari t. hat . 1 l 0 . Wo L 1. , maybe w n o u a It t t o a 1; op back and just 1 7 J o o k a t i l. a o a i ri , I - l o t. ui e show you the n A . In t h i a l. h i nq - J 4 Q the t h i 7 d p a q e . I ft A , - t o Marsh? J ft (? Y e s . H e re - here's t. h c' in e m o , I l h a s P a cj e l 7 l , I'.nie 7 , Paij ft. You're ta1 k L n <y a b o u t h o n: China i n is (joi nq l.o probably need chiih iderabl i: Ai oo.lor for 19 capacitors. Tho Runs iann( who luve two plants, have 7 0 need for 5,000 tons per y n ai 7 1 A . I was pas si n (j a 1 o n (j i n 1: o v m a 1'. i o n i It at T 7 7 pi eked ti p s ouew h e r e , 7. ft Q . Now, why ft i d you I. h i n k t h a t l n f o r hi a t ion 74 won 1 d be of interest t. o M o n s a 111. o n i n c e y o u 7ft u nil o r a food they It ad a 1. r o <i (1 y m a (1 o t h o d n c i a Lon to NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000511 I stop soLLing pen's .is soon .is their oustomern could n w i t. c. h over? 3 A. Nobody hud a r o p I a c e in e n 1 for pen . 4 Q. Wo l L , you wore talking .lbout n A . This this t i e in, as I u n rt e r s t. a nd i t. , 6 with K u r o po , n t o mat ioii.il - Marsh is Ln Kurope, 7 T h e i r po s t vi r e o n FCH - 1 dc>n't know the date of fl 1: h L s t h i n g v j. jht now was considerably ditto rent 9 f to m t 11 6! p o s t u r e here in the: States. l 0 y [ b o e . So, Monsanto only was going to stop 1 ) H V. .1 .1 i nq )' C* H ' s i n t h e ll n i t imI Slates. They wer e going l /> to kcop on soiling thorn overseas? 1 3 A. The French were going to. the. Go: r mans and l 4 so to r th - I Q . Ami M o n santo was, t. o o ? 1 fi A. and the Russians. J / /' a r d o n '> l fl Q. Ami Monsanto was, too? ) 9 When Monsanto shut, down here;, that ?. 0 automatically shut il; down in in Hr L t.i i n . That 3 1 is what h a p p c n e d. 2? Q . [ gee. Hut in 1.he meantime, in Kurope and 2 3 other p Lace s, Monsanto was going to try to conti nuo ? 4 to sell ITH ' s ? 2 S A. fn Kurope, yes. Yes. liecuuse t he posture NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000512 I h nii: ii.ri cons id e rah I y d i I' f e r nut h h .1 n L t w a j h ore . Q. W (if (i you involved at all in in o n i t o r .i n o t h e 1 actual. 3 ii l (i 3 by Monsanto o f* lJ (', H materials, i r 4 d e t. e r in j n i n q w b a l was p i o I\ t. a t> 1 e and w h a t w r, r n n I ? 5 A. No. I! think now you 1 co ijiitl'.imj in . n a r e a f> 1 h a l i n v o 1 v e s o l. h nr- t h a n d i H or l.i i r , 7 Q . Well - a A. you're talking about the broad area, ) Q. Okay.And you weren't involved - i n A. No, .1 wan not in that. i i Q. i;;vnn though fro in 19/1. on Monsanto, it Least 1 2. in t h e !l n i Led V, [. a t. e s , w us 1 1 m i t i n q i In sales t. o I 1 d i c. I. e r. t r i c u s o s ? 1 4 A . Y e a h , 1 h a t - t ha t ' n r i q h t. . l b Q iln you rue a 1 1 a n y t i in to when Mu ns ) was 1 f\ h a v i nci t r oubl e n e 1 .1 i nq i t. u A roc 1 o r a b e c a u ihe l/ q u a 1. i t. y o W it s prod uc t w a s n o 1: a .3 g o o d a s it or i n i t s c o m p e t. 5 to r a ? 1. 9 A . No. W h o a n; i t s e o mpn l. 1 1: o r s > 20 Q Well, w o. r e n 1 t. t he r e o t h e r p e o p .1 e a n cl t. b r. 2 \ world who were in a k i n g PCir s a L a o in e p o i n t 1: i m o .' 2 2 A . Oh, V e a . No , l thought you were I k i ri cj - ?. 1 o h , y o u ' r e - y o u * r e i. n t. o ex U . S . 2 4 Q [ ' in ask i n q w h e t. h e r o r not. you re I a 2r> >> n t. tod o |; t i m o, w lie n Mo n sa n to ' s p r o d ti c t i o n PCH'3 NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000513 was not. ,is qood .i u-iality -in th.it of the fapaneso and t. lie Gerniiiri.i , for example? 3 A . No . No, absolutely n o t . 4 Q. I t. wa s a 1 w a y s s U (1 O 1 i o r ? 9 A . 1 don ' t s a y L 1: was " s u ini r i o r . " T 1. wo s f. e q u i v a 1 C. II t . .1 l say t. h c i r quality, a f -T /' rl 7 know. was and co u L d ha ve been oquiva Innt n Th i n c. r> in e a back to so t.t .i nq t h e s e 9 i n te m.i t i r>n.i l stdnil.inla that. I worked on. That was i n the (mu po fie f ot it., to have uniformity of quality. 11 Q. And you don't - you don't t'ficali at any i ? point, in time, the United States' plants or Monsanto l 3 in the United States tie i ruj concerned that Its PCR's 1 4 w e r e n n t. a a q o o d a quality - l 5 A . No, no, no. Not at all. 1 6 Q . Okay . l 7 A . No . 1 f) Q . If that happened, would that be surprifiinq 19 to you? 2 0 A . Oh, it. would. 2 l Q . Okay. Some o f I. h o s e As k a nits, o r P C R ' u , ? 2 used in transformers and capacitors had other 3 3 m a t e r i a l s added to I. h e in In addition to the l' <.' R ' a , 3-1 did they not? 2 3 A . Ye s , NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000514 1 _ Q A n d wore those other materials a p rob loin o '? having t o x i c e f f e c' l :i o > advc r n e effects o n It u in a n T health? 4 A . Not. t o in y k ri o w 1 e d q e . S Q . A H f a r as you know, that was not the ease? fi A. No . 1 t h ink y o u h e 11. e r talk t o t he modi c a / poop 1e on t h i s 0 0 I.e l in e h how y o u a D o c u in e n t 1 d 9 4 7 . Thai 1 s ') ha n dwr L t t o n n o to it a t o d April b t h , l 9 6 R , from an ] n R . M . McCut.c h e on at the Krummr.ic.h plant, to you, i s 1 t i t n o 1: ? 1 2. A . Y e s l 1 O . A ltd i t t a 1 k a about - 1 4 A . ] 9 6 n . Oh, all right. I. ') Q. - - t: j L k n about thimjs added to PCR 1 s - 1 f. A. All r i q h 1 . This i fl an added a r a v e r q e r . 1 7 'I' I) i s ii o e s h a v e t ox ic L ty, yes. ) fl p. Okay. So, some of the products that 1 9 Monsanto sold <: o n t. a L n im; PfH ' s no t only had 1?C n ' s :! o but also had o t h o r m a t <- i i a 1 s that could cause t.oxi c ?. 1 problems , d i d 1. h e y n o t? ? ? A . Th i 1 'i W h rl t t h e V C a 1 1 oil a " a c a v e n q e r , " ;> i u s e d i n the a in <5 u n L o t: a f: e w tenths of a percent a nd ? i p o r s e , t h e : e O p o X i d e s h a v e their own m e dic a 1 e h a r.ictftf i h t. i 0 :> h 1 s t o r y , 1 e t m e say. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000515 1. And <j n this 3 u () i e c l; I- h i n Is aomftt'h i ih; 2 for the m e d5ca I pe o p1o .3 Q . Okay. 4 A . - for Pr. K e J 1 y . r> Q 0 o you know why a p l a n t per s o n wa wr i t i n <7 6 Y oil t. o l. el.l vou about that. proble in ? 7 A . No, [don't . No, L don't. 8 (> . Hu t. you do 1 ec a 1 1 t.ha t. s one of t. fic* 9 add i L i v e a t ha t wore put in those PCH ' a fc' o r J 0 d i c 1 ec t. r i c: r> u t p o f.i e s had t.h e j r own additional t oxi c l l pcob luma, c o r r e c t ? 1 7 A . T h i s i s c o r r e c t . K p o x i d e s, we're t. a J k i n g l 3 a b o u t; and 1 h i. s i a c oree c t . T he toxicology of J <1 cpox i d ('. ] s a s <- para! e s u h i c c !., and I ' m not qua li f i c d l 5 t o eg ua to it. 1 6 Q. What sort of warnings did your group 1 7 provide to the people to whom you sold PCB motor La Is 1 fl having these scavengers added to them? Anything? 19 A, Not a s a formal, program or approach, that T 70 know of. 7 J You're referring to the fact, of the 2 2 addition of this small amount, of scavenger, what 73 effect that h a s what, bearing that has, on 2 \ toxicology a n d 3 o E o r t h . N o t. that I know of, n o . 7S However, they would refer- t. o t. h e NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000516 i t I. i tci'.i burn on on i.linan hh i.nqs to pen pin. us liny 2. them, the whal'n printed in the I i t e ra t. u r e . .3 Q. The primary source of literature to people 4 a b o u t a n y t o x i c. o .1 o g i cal c> r d e r m a t o .logical p r o b l c m a 5 with PCH ' a and Askoral as dielectric fluids was the b li l.rralnre that we've already .looked at., was it not? 7 A. Yen. 8 Q . Are you aware; of any ot.hc.r 1 A terature 9 pr (Willed to customers about toxicology or hazards, 1 () (i l her than what, we've already looked at.? l t A. No. 1 3 () . Sio, as far an you know, as t. he person l 3 designated by Monsanto to apeak to advertising on 1 4 d A t J e c. I r Acs, in a r k e l i ti q on di elec t. r Acs, a n d t. e c h n i c a 1 l ?> dal. a on dielectrics?, that's tho solo source of 1 6 i n f ormai .i on u py> 1 i ed to customers V l 7 A. As Car as know, yos. i a MR. OKAWFOKDi We better shut her 19 down . ?.0 MR. I.ACKY ; Okay. Well, we 1 .1 j ?, I T f ( K W IT NR : Yeah. 7 ? MR. LAOKY : bet me address the 7.3 question whether wo need t o <.: oin p I e t o 1. his later a v 74 n o 1 . 7.S MK. C! K A WI-'OKl) : Okay. Fine. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000517 I MU. f. A d K Y : A ii >.t wn ' l l d o c L d o w h .1 t to 2 do at. future date. Hut, riqht now, ue ' ] J ) u <! t leave 1 It open, 3 u b j o <: t to b <; I n (j oonipluhiil. 4 MU. Ch'AWFOKI) ; All r j q h l. . Maytic we ``i e a n d o i t b y p h one L f: you ilon ' t h a v o a lot of 6 q u e k t. i o n rs . 7 MU . I.ACHY : Okay . We ' J 1 1 ook a 1 that n w h t n wo q n t t h er e , 9 MU . CRAWFORD: Okay. 1 0 T H K V T. D F, 0 <1R A P H K R : This conclude3 the 1 ] d e po n i l. .1 a ri of Mr. Haul Heniqnus. The time in ill. l 2 MU . fi AC l\ Y : You neeii t o note it ' 3 the 1 3 e o ri t 5 n a a t i n n . J t. '' r. not the conclusion 1 4 TIIK V r D K O G R A PH RR : Okay. r t ' 3 n 0 ted. 1 f> MS . 0 b K i> K N : Adjourned, rath e r . L f-i * * <r * * 17 LH 19 20 21 72 7 24 7 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000518 I S i; 11 N AT 1] R R OF W I T.N R_SH 2 3 1, PA [11, GEORGE HEN TONUS, solomnlv 4 3 wear or affirm, undo r the pains and penalties of i. per jury, that t. 1) e 1 ore g oing p a q e s , 1 6(1 t h r < i uqh <14 6 6 c o n t a i n a t rue a n d correct t cansc r l P t of t h e '/ t. e s t i m o ri y q j v f- n by ihe a t t he t i hi e and p 1 are stated n with t h o c o r r e cti o ns, i f: a n y , and the r na sons 9 the.T rf or no ted o n a a t>. para t . e sheet o f paper and l 0 a 11 a <; hod h o r K o ; a n d t h a t t am h iijnlmi I. h i 3 belrora a 1 1 Not.ary l'lilil i o. . l2 13 PAI/h GEORGE RKNIiGNUS l4 15 1 6 T H K S TATE OF : l 7 15 f IH 53 Cl R j; n R D ANO SWORN 'L'O RKFORE ME, the 1 fl uiulcni i (jnert ail l.ticui l.y , by the. wit lies 3, )' A 111. GEORGE 1.9 RKNEGNUS, on this the ______ day ol: ____________________________ , 2 0 1907 , 21 22 Notary Public in and Toe 23 T h o G t. a t o o t' _______ __ 2 4 My commission expires: 2l> NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000519 J TtiK :;tatk op trxm; . 2. J , Chery l I K . f.ePevera, a Cerl i f j e<] .1 Shorthand Reporter, hereby certify that t. ho 4 foreqoing testimony was given hcforc; me after the l3 Witness had b o e n fi i r s I: d u I. y s w o r n . 6 i further certify that. J prepared thin 7 transcript and that the foregoing pages constitute a tl c o m [il ete a n d correct copy of t. h o t. r anscri p l. of t h e 9 proceedings. 1 0 I f u r t. h e r c e r t i f y that. I a in neither I l attorney for, rotated to, nor employed by any of the } 2 p a j lien to 1 h e lawsuit, in which this deposition was L.'i taken; further, I a in nt> i. thnr related to nor employed ) 4 by any attorney of record in this cause, nor do I 1 b have a 1 i. lunci aL interest i. n the matter. 1h ] 7 C51VKN UNDKH MY HAND AND SKA1. OP OFF] OK I H in Houston, Texas, on this the ?. Bth day of April, 1 9 1 987. 20 2.1 ^ --------------- dhopy-Ll K-' He Pevers ' I'Sli, 0 I.' , CM 22 2 2 C e r t. i f i c a Lion Number: J C 9 0 Da t e of K x p L r a t i. o n i Do ciimhiM' II, l 9 H H 2A Afldreri::: 2. 9 () 0 f> m i t. h Street, Suite 104 M o u s t o n , Tex a 7 7 0 0 fi 2.b Phono: 7 11 / fi 2 2 1 7 b / NELL NIC CALLUNI & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000520 Pag* Lina LAirril'S NOTSS NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. WATER PCB-SD0000000521