Document 8Vz8yGvK20ODyKp6NLgaRROVe

FILE NAME Owens Illinois OWILL DATE 1980 Aug 19 DOC OWILL089 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION Legal - Deposition of Everett C. Shuman IN AND FOR THE In THE DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT COURT COURT COUNTY COUNTY BOULDER PATTON PATTON GILMORE Plaintiff Ve MANVILLE PRODUCTS CORPORATION 6 Defendants Ue we ve O0f8 CIVIL ACTION NO. 77-20912-1 ct se es Everett C. Shuman of Deposition | Taken by 3 Defendant Qwens-Corning Fiberglass Corning : Before H Date Nota ry Public Helena L. Bowes August 19 1980 10:0 QO a.m.. 14 Inn Sheraton lvania Place : State College Pennsylvania | J. PRESENT: J. CONARD METCALF ,. Esquire For - plaintiff A. STANCATI Esquire JOSEPH Owens For - Defendant Corporation For - Fiberglass Corporation Fiberglass SERVICE, 118 MARKET STREET. HARRISBURG. 17101 PHONE EIGER & LORIA REPORTING | 717 234-2109 234-2109 { : au . EA re | a COUNTY OF DAUPHIN 2 COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA : 4 I Helena L. Bowes Reporter authorized 5 to administer oaths and take depositions in the trial of 6 | causes and having an office in harrisburg Pennsylvania 7 | do hereby certify that the foregoing is the testimony of Everett C. Shuman 8 9 taken by Deft Corning Figerglass at the office of 10 Sheraton Inn State College Pennsylvania 11 I further certify that before the taking of said 12 | depositions the witness was 13 questions and answers were taken duly down sworn that the in stenotype by the 14 said Helena L. Bowes a Reporter Public approved 15 and agreed to and afterwards reduced to typewriting under 16 | the direction of the said Reporter I further certify that the proceedings and evidence 18 are contained fully and accurately in the notes taken by 19 | me on the within deposition and that this copy is a 20 correct transcript of the same ; 21 In testimony whereof I have hereunto subscribed 22 my hand this 26th day of August 1980 23 . o - Helena L. Bowes Reporter 25 L__._ GEORGE _ GEIGER REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 ~ EVERETT C. SHUMAN called as a witness being duly sworn testified as follows DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR HIGGINS Q A Will you state your full name for the record please Everett C. Shuman - A How old are you 77 Q 10 A 11 Q A 13 Q 14 A 15 Q. 16 time Where do you presently reside I live in State College Pennsylvania What is your present occupation Retired How long have you been retired 12 years What is the general state of your health at the present 17 A Fairly good for the age DO Are you married | A Yes Q Do you reside with your wife at the present time A Yes 22 Q What is the state of her physical and mental health 23 A She's been mentally ill for about four years and is 24 incapable of doing anything for herself L 25 Who takes care of her r LL L L_ GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 ~ A I do Q What does your care entail A Practically everything that needs to be done She can't feed herself and I have to take care of her personal needs and dress her and undress her and do anything that you would for example to an 18 month old child Q Is it your testimony then that she requires constant supervision A Constant supervision I could leave her as now for 10 about two hours or so without too much trouble 11 Q Would your responsibilities for her care make it impossible for you to testify at the trial in this case on 13 September 2nd 1980 14 MR METCALF I object to the form of the question 15 MR HIGGINS Let me restate the question ARTYN 16 BY MR HIGGINS Er ee Aeea 17 Does your involvement in the care and treatment of your ae 18 wife restrict your travel capabilities in any way 19 A Yes it does Q In what respect 21 As it was mentioned I can't leave her for more than about two to two a half hours then I have to go back attend to her needs at that time This goes on 24 hours a day Q Given the facts that the trial in this case will proceed proceed 25 on September 2nd 1980 in the County of Boulder State of GEIGER & LORIA REPORting serviCE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 - ~ Colorado would it be possible for you to testify at that trial | | A I don't see how MR HIGGINS MR METCALF I have no further questions I have no questions on that aspect MR HIGGINS Let's go off the record Discussion held off the record MR HIGGINS : This is taken sort of pursuant to agree- ment this deposition The ground rules are that no objections will be reserved and that all objections will be made contempo- 10 raneously as we proceed through this deposition 11 MR METCALF I agree with the fact that the deposition will be made contemporaneously and no objections are being re- 13 served 14 MR HIGGINS Do you have an objection to the taking 15 of the deposition Mr. Metcalf 16 MR METCALF I have no objection to Mr. Shuman's 17 deposition being taken today or it being taken to preserve its 18 testimony for Corning Fiberglass only I do object to 19 video tape deposition in the absence of an order of court permittingpermitting a video taped deposition being taken of Mr. Shuman 21 The Colorado Rules of Civil Procedure require that an order of court be obtained before a video tape be taken Plaintiff stands by and relies on that rule And by participating in Mr. Shuman's deposition today Plaintiff in no way waives or 25 intends to waive the requirement that a court order be obtained GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 for the taking of a video taped deposition I also want to reserve my right to cross examine the witness in case we run short of time physical and mental condition of Mr. today in Shuman's view of wife the MR HIGGINS Objection so noted MR HICKERNELL This is reel number one in the depo- sition of Everett C. Shuman P.E. The camera operator is Larry Hickernell the stenotype reporter is Helena Bowes both of the firm of Geiger and Loria Reporting Service Harrisburg Pennsyl- | 10 vania 11 Today is Tuesday August 19th 1980 and the time is 10:17 a.m. We are assembled at the Sheraton Inn in State College 13 Pennsylvania for the purpose of taking the deposition of Everett 14 C. Shuman P.E. Professional Engineer for the Defendants in the 15 matter Patton B. Gilmore versus Manville Products 16 Corporation et al 17 Counsel will now identify themselves on camera 18 MR HIGGINS My name is David Higgins and I represent 19 Defendant Corning Fiberglass Corporation MR METCALF My name is Conard Metcalf and I repre- 21 sent the Plaintiff Patton B. Gilmore in this case And I suggest also that the video tape operator might make an alternative introduction of the caption being Patton Gilmore versus Corning Fiberglass in view that the motion 25 is granted L . _ GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 MR HIGGINS Why don't we start over again MR HICKERNELL This is reel number one in the depo- sition of Everett C. Shuman P.E. The camera operator is Larry Hickernell the stenotype reporter is Helena Bowes both of the firm of Geiger and Loria Reporting Service Harrisburg Pennsyl- vania Today is Tuesday August 19th 1980 and the time is 10:20 a.m. We are assembled at the Sheraton Inn in State College Pennsylvania for the purpose of taking the deposition of 10 Everett C. Shuman Professional Engineer for the Defendant in 11 the matter of Patton B. Gilmore versus Corning Fiberglass Corporation 13 Counsel will now identify themselves on camera 14 MR HIGGINS My name is David Higgins I represent 15 the Defendant Corning Fiberglass Corporation 16 MR METCALF My name is Conard Metcalf I represent 17 the Plaintiff Mr. Patton B. Gilmore 18 BY MR HIGGINS 19 Q Mr. Shuman will you state your full name for the record please 21 A Everett C. Shuman Q What is your present address A State College Pennsylvania How old are you 25 Q 77 ~~GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 7 . 0 A Are you presently employed I'm retired Q How long have you been retired A 12 years Q Mr. Shuman would you describe for us your educational background please A Grade school and high school were in Milwaukee Wisconsin Attended the University of Wisconsin at Madison and obtained a degir n e cive il engineering in 1924 and a master's 10 degree in civil engineering in 1926 11 Q While in college did you work other than going to school were you employed at any time during that period 13 A I had worked prior to the university for a civil 14 engineer by the name of H. C. Webster 15 Q. In what capacity 16 A I was an assistant to the surveying crews 17 Q Upon graduation from the University of Wisconsin did 18 you become employed 19 A Yes I was employed by the Portland Cement Association Research Laboratory Chicago 21 Q Would you summarize for us your employment history from the time of your graduation from the University of Wisconsin | to your retirement A From 1926 to 1938 with an interruption in between I was 25 in the research laboratory of the Portland Cement Association as ~ GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 ~ research engineer doing research on concrete and Portland cement And was also in charge of equipment and facilities for the laboratory After 1938 I was head of civil engineering at Louis Institute in Chicago until 1941. This was a full course civil engineering curriculum In '41 I joined the research laboratory of North Atlantic Atlantic 1 Division of Army Engineers at West Point After Pearl Harbor 1 the laboratory was moved from West Point since it was not 10 literally a part of West Point but merely another part of the 11 Army Engineers to Mount Vernon New York where we continued 12 research in concrete as applied to the war effort 13 In 1941 I joined Illinois Glass Company at 14 Berlin New Jersey as a research engineer in the development of 15 calcium silicate thermal insulation 16 Q What year was that 17 A 1944 I joined Illinois 18 Q Go ahead 19 And so from 1944 to about 1950 I was located at the Berlin plant engaged in research and development of calcium 21 silicate In 1950 I was moved to the home office in Toledo where I was a director of research of the division where I continued this And was employed there also as a consultant to the sales 25 department until 1958 when the division Kaylo division was bought ~ GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 ~ by Corning Fiberglass Corporation So from 1958 until '61 I was employed one year in Toledo and two years in New York by Corning Fiberglass Then I joined the Pennsylvania State University in 1961 in the Institute for Building Research in the College of Engineering where I remained until retirement at age 65 in 1968 Q Where is Pennsylvania State University located A In State College Pennsylvania Q As I understand your testimony you were employed by 10 Illinois Glass Company from 1944 until 1958 is that 11 correct A That's correct 13 Q Then you were employed by Owens Fiberglass Corporation 14 from 1958 until 1961 15 A That's right 16 Q Were you ever employed by either of those two companies 17 at any time other than what you testified to fl A No. 19 Q To your knowledge is there any corporate association between Corning Fiberglass Corporation and Illinois 21 Glass Company MR METCALF Object to lack of foundation BY MR HIGGINS Q If you have any knowledge go ahead and answer the 25 question " G~EIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 10 A My understanding is they're two entirely separate companies Q Mr. Shuman when did you first become aware of thermal insulation that contained asbestos A Well quite early because pieces of equipment that I would build it involved insulation were insulated with the materials that were on the market at that time Primarily 85 percent mag which is the trade name for that material and so it contained asbestos 10 But my first awareness of asbestos was when my parents 11 built a Miliwna Miu lwk auekeee and the heating system was insulated and asbestos was used in that process But so far as using it 13 commercially myself it wasn't until later when I was involved 14 in insulating heated equipment 15 Q When did you become involved in insulating of heating 16 equipment 17 A At the Portland Cement Association was the first time 18 in which I was insulating a dryer for the drying of concrete 19 aggregates You testified that you started working for Owens 21 nois Glass Company in 1944. Do you know whether or not -- first of all what did the Kaylo division of Illinois Glass Company do what was the function of that division A That division was making thermal insulations and 2525 associated products with calcium silicates ~ GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 ~ 11 1 -- Did these insulations contain asbestos A Yes they did Q Do you know how long before you became employed at Illinois Glass Company in 1944 that Owens Illinois was in that business of making asbestos containing insulation products MR METCALF I am going to object there's no foundation means of knowledge BY MR HIGGINS Q 10 A 11 A 13 Seldon If you know It was my understanding they started in 1943 How did you learn of that By the man who had hired me for Illinois John 14 Q John Seldon 15 A. n 16 O How did he relate to you this information 17 A This was during the interviews in which he was hiring 18 me and giving me kind of background in what they were doing and 19 the kind of work I might be interested in doing Q Would it be fair to say then that as far as you know 21 Illinois began to make asbestos containing insulation approximately a year before you came employed by Illinois leading MR METCALF Object to the form of the question as 25 GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 ~ 12 BY MR HIGGINS Q Go ahead answer that A As far as I know it was in 1943 about a year before ' What were the circumstances surrounding your being interviewed and subsequently becoming employed by Illinois A As I testified I had worked for a number of years in the research laboratory of the Portland Cement Association And Portland cement is a complex calcium silicate And Mr. Seldon was aware of the work I had done there and so he phoned me 10 while I was in Mount Vernon New York and asked whether I would 11 be interested in coming with them to make this new hydrous calcium silicate thermal insulation 13 MR METCALF 14 BY MR HIGGINS Move to strike hearsay statements 15 Q You may proceed 16 A So then it was at that time he had given me the 17 background of how they had gotten into the operation 18 Q What was your job title when you first became employed 19 at Illinois A Research engineer ' 21 Q In that capacity as a research engineer for Owens- Illinois did you become aware of other asbestos containing insu- lation products that were on the market at that time A We of course were aware of whatever thermal insulations 25 were on the market and would get samples or would have people GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 ~ 13 get us samples And then from those we found out that several of them did contain asbestos Q Would you describe for me please what those other asbestos containing thermal insulation products were that were on the market either by trade name or by characteristics A The principal one was 85 percent magnesia which was shortened to 85 percent mag and there were several manufacturers who made that product such as Manville G. B. Madison Ehret and others There were two others that we were aware of 10 that made calcium silicate One was Pabco in California and 11 Ruberoid which is Glou in c Gle ousct ese terr Jersey Then there was another one that made their insulation out of almost entirely 13 Africian asbestos under the trade name of Unibestos 14 Q Did you ever come to learn how much asbestos any of 15 these products contained this 16 MR METCALF I am going to object to line of 17 questioning as being irrelevant 18 MR HIGGINS In response to that is it's most relevant 19 because one of the issues in this case is your client's prior exposure to asbestos containing products And here's a man who 21 has personal knowledge of what products were in the market as early as 1944. So I think it's most relevant MR METCALF Fine if you can lay a foundation that Mr. Shuman has knowledge of what products Mr. Gilmore worked then 25 it becomes relevant otherwise I stand on the objection Sr GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 ~ 14 MR HIGGINS witnesses That will be established through other | MR METCALF BY MR HIGGINS Then I object Q Mr. Shuman did you come to learn how much asbestos these other products contained A We analyzed them roughly not down to precise values to find out about how much asbestos they were using because we were using asbestos too And most of their's as I recall were on the 10 order of 20 percent by weight of asbestos fiber 11 Q What products had 20 percent by weight of the asbestos fiber 13 MR METCALF Can I have a continuing objection to this 14 line of questioning so I don't have to repeatedly interrupt after 15 each question 16 MR HIGGINS 17 objection Again would you state the grounds for the 18 MR METCALF The objection is that it is totally irrelevant to the issues remaining in this case as to what other products may or may not have been on the market what asbestos contents they had without some foundation at the minimum that this witness has knowledge of whether or not Mr. Gilmore worked for these products at any time or whether or not these products were either the sole case of Mr. Gilmore's asbestosis or that there's some reasonable medical basis for a portionment of his ~~ GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 15 injury between exposure to Kaylo and exposure to other products MR HIGGINS I stand on my earlier response to your objection and I will allow a continuing objection BY MR HIGGINS Q Again Mr. Shuman to your knowledge which products contained something in the neighborhood of 20 percent asbestos fiber MR METCALF I object to the form of that question or You said by weight there may be a difference if you're talking waght 10 about volume 11 BY MR HIGGINS Q Will you describe what you mean by 20 percent 13 A The usual way of describing it is such and such a per- 14 cent by weight of the product So that if we're broken down 15 into components the asbestos will be in the neighborhood of 20 16 percent by weight of the total product 17 Q What products on the market at that time had asbestos 18 with 20 percent asbestos by weight 19 A The one that we were familiar with were the 85 percent mag a high density diatomaceous earth material which think had the trade name Super X. Unibestos which of course was very 22 high in asbestos content probably 80 to 90 percent 23 were the principals ones But those 24 Q Are you familiar with the term asbestos cement 25 A Well asbestos cement is a dry product that is made ~ GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 _ PHONE 717 234-2109 1 1 << aimlent, = idemites 16 asbestos with fibers and Portland cement and maybe some other minor constituents to which water is added to form what the trade usually calls a mud which is used to fill in cracks and crevices or to form around irregular shapes Q During the 1940's when you were working for Owens- Illinois Glass Company did you have occasion to see asbestos products being used at the work place asbestos containing A I was out in the field from time to time and actually saw the material being used 10 Q Did you ever see asbestos cement being used 11 A Yes 12 a Could you describe how it was used 13 A Well it usually came in bags so that a bucket of water 14 was filled by grabbing hand fulls of cement or either shaking it 15 into the bucket and stirring it to make the consistency that 16 the applicator wanted to use so that it had good adhesion and 17 yet was tenacious enough so that it wouldn't slip off And so 18 then this was used to fill the cracks between the thermal insu- 19 lation that had been applied preformed and also to form it around irregular shapes such as elbows and T's and other fittings 21 Q Did you have occasion to observe whether or not dust would be generated by this process using asbestos cement A There was a certain amount of dust that would arise when the material was taken out of the bags and either dropped 25 into or shaken into the bucket of water ~GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 17 - Did Illinois manufacture asbestos cement A No we did not Q. Q. Did you ever have occasion to see 85 percent mag thermal insulation being used in the field during the 1940's A Yes Q Could you describe how it was used A 85 percent mag is a preformed product so it's formed into pipe insulation which is half sections that would fit around a piece of pipe or into block which is 36 inches long and of 10 several thicknesses and usually about six inches wide And so 11 those were applied by various means wires sometimes by welding on little logs and so on to hold the material on to the vessel 13 Q Did you ever have occasion to observe whether or not 14 any dust was generated pursuant to the use of 85 percent mag 15 A. There would be dust particularly if the piece had to 16 be sawed to fit the particular length And this was done with 17 an ordinary hand saw 18 ' To your knowledge was Corning Fiberglass Corpo- 19 ration in existence at this time A Yes ' 21 Q Talking now in the period of the 1940's A Yes it was Q Do you know whether or not they were making any asbestos containing insulation products at that time 25 A I don't know of any GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 18 0 Do you know whether or not they were making any A No I don't know if they were making any at all product was primarily glass fiber Their Q You indicated that when you began working for Owens- Illinois Glass Company the only product that was being made by the Kaylo division was Kaylo A Yes Q Would you describe what Kaylo is and what it was at that time 10 A You mean process 11 No it's components what it's made up of A The components are primarily lime and a siliceous 13 material which was usually diatomaceous earth 14 Q What does siliceous mean 15 A. Silica Diatomaceous earth and then asbestos fibers 16 and water which is mixed in a slurry 17 Q You stated that it contained asbestos Do you know 18 what kind of fiber was used what kind of asbestos fiber was 19 used A It was primarily chrysotile 21 Q What is chrysotile A That's a geologic name for a formation of asbestos Q Are there more than one formations of asbestos to your knowledge 25 A Yes there's several ~ GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 _| .. 19 Q What was the percentage of asbestos in the Kaylo in this period of time A Over a period of time I would say it was on the order of 18 percent by weight | Q Was this percentage of asbestos by weight more or less than the percentagoef asbestos by weight in other products such as 85 percent mag A From the samples we tested this was a little bit less than what they were using 10 Q What was the process at Illinois by which Kaylo 11 was made during the time that you worked at the Kaylo division of Illinois 13 A The procedure is after this slurry is made and of course 14 the amount of water determined the end product density the 15 material is then put into autoclave which is a high pressure 16 cylinder And so the reaction then between the lime and the 17 silica takes place at these elevated temperatures it would not 18 take place at room temperature 19 After the material is in the autoclave long enough for a reasonably complete reaction of lime and silica it's removed 21 Of course it comes out wet and it has to be dried And after drying it would be sized so that it could be cartoned for shipping Q How would the asbestos be added to this slurry that 25 you described ~~~ GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 | coe 20 the A size Asbestos came in bags and of the batch and then just they would be preweighed dumped into the mixer for Q When you started working for Illinois to your knowledge was Kaylo being produced in commercial quantities A That's difficult to say because I think they were making it enough so that it could be -- that it was sold but more or less only for short distances Like for example to con- tractors in Philadelphia and nearby Pennsylvania areas and New Jersey 10 Q You called this a calcium silicate product 11 A Yes it's usually referred to in the industry as hydrous calcium silicate 13 Q What is unique about a hydrous calcium silicate product | 14 as compared to something like 85 percent mag 15 MR METCALF Object to the form and object to the 16 basis of no foundation 17 MR HIGGINS 18 BY MR HIGGINS Let me restate the question 19 Q Kaylo was a hydrous calcium silicate product Do you know what 85 percent mag was 21 A 22 fibers It's primarily magnesium carbonate plus asbestos Q What is the difference between a magnesium carbonate 24 thermal insulation and a hydrous calcium silicate thermal insula- tion ~~ GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 21 A Thermally they'd perform about the same But one of the large advantages of the calcium silicate is that it is suitable to much higher service temperatures 85 percent mag has usually Whereas the considered been to be suitable to around 450 degrees calcium silicates go up to about 1,200 degrees So that for equipment that would operate at temperatures above 450 it would require some other material in conjunction with the 85 percent mag so you'd have to use two different materials at the same time Whereas with calcium silicate you 10 could do it all with one Another advantage of the calcium 11 silicate was that by being suitable up to 1,200 degrees the material that was used in conjunction with the 85 percent mag 13 was much higher density so the diatomaceous earth block might 14 have a density on the order of 20 or more pounds per cubic foot 15 So that on vessels where tonage was important the saving in 16 weight by the use of calcium silicate was important 17 O When you're talking about hydrous calcium silicate hydrous 18 Kaylo was a calcium silicate product 19 A Yes 20 Q Did Kaylo have the same advantages that you just des- 21 cribed generally for calcium silicate products A Yes I think that in general all the calcium silicate products are about the same in properties Q Were hydrous calcium silicate thermal insulation 25 products developed before or after magnesium carbonate products GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 - 22 A After Q As I understand your testimony when you joins Owens- Illinois they were just then in the process of developing and commercially marketing Kaylo is that correct MR METCALF summarizing testimony Object to the form and object to counsel BY MR HIGGINS Q Go ahead and answer the question A Well repeat it please 10 Q What was the extent of the sales and marketing of 11 Kaylo at the time you joined Illinois if you know A The sales was a minor operation at the time because 13 they were just trying to get the volume of the production at the 14 plant up so that you could fill orders because it's well known 15 that you have to have the capacity to supply all the needs for 16 a particular job because it's usually undesirable to have 17 different materials on the same job You have contractors it 18 becomes a headache to them , So they would prefer to buy -- if 19 they have contracted for a product that that product be in sufficient supply that they could do the job 21 we could do only enough to do small jobs So at the outset Q At the time you joined Illinois in 1944 what was the most know used asbestos containing thermal insulation if you 25 A I would say 85 percent mag ~ GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 Q What was the extent of the development of the Kaylo as a commercially feasible product when you joined Illinois in 1944 A They were already making a product and of course as part of research the product was improved as more and more was learned about chemical reaction But to all intents and purposes the calcium silicate product had the properties that were pre- sented to purchasers insofar as thermal performance is concerned and the handability density 10 Q What if any other advantages did Kaylo have over say 11 magnesium carbonate products 12 MR METCALF Object to the form 13 A Well one of the advantages that we learned from the 14 field was that in cutting and handling it it made less dust just 15 by the inherent properties of calcium silicate 16 BY MR HIGGINS 17 Q What inherent properties are there about calcium 18 silicate that makes it less dusty than other products 19 A I think it's a stronger product so that it wasn't as friable as the other materials : 21 Q Would you explain to the court and jury what friable means 23 It means that it's rather brittle and it would break easily or the edges would rub off easily which is always a part 25 of the handability ~~G-EIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 ame \w 24 1940's Q Were you aware in the when you worked for Owens- Illinois what the tion products friabilitoyf other asbestos containing | insula- A Only in general terms because at that time there was no tests for the Naval that product laboratory of later on the test procedure developed by Annapolis It became an ASTM standard test 8 Would you describe for the court and jury what ASTM means 9 A ASTM stands for the American Society for Testing and 10 Materials 11 Q Did you ever have occasion to witness an example of friability of say something like 85 percent mag 13 A In my own experience they were saying when they would 14 insulate the outside of dryers which were round and circular four 15 vessels three or feet in diameter and ten feet long again 16 the handability particularly when you're trying to get it to fit 17 around irregular surfaces and fittings meant that you had to be 18 careful or it would break Q Where did Illinois obtain the asbestos that it used in the fabrication of this Kaylo product ' 21 MR METCALF Object to relevancy A Most of it was purchased from Manville Corporation Corporation BY MR HIGGINS Q Where was the remainder purchased if you know 25 A Well there were times when we had tried some other ~ GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 ~ 25 asbestos from other sources but they were so minor they were abandoned so it was practically all Manville material Q Whi youlwee re at Berlin at the Berlin plant from 1944 to 1949 were you ever made aware of any health hazard associated with the insulation of asbestos fibers A Nope During the period from 1944 to 1949 was anyone else making a hydrated calcium silicate asbestos containing thermal insulation 10 A Ruberoid and Pabco were 11 I was aware of Those are the only two that Q After 1949 did any other manufacturer commence to manu- 13 facture -- 14 A Somewhere in there and I don't know the precise year 15 Manville also made a hydrous calcium silicate -- 16 MR METCALF Again I am going to object to this line 17 of questioning on the basis for relevancy as earlier stated BY MR HIGGINS 19 Q What is the trade name for the hydrous calcium silicate product that Manville manufactured 21 A I think it's Thermobest 22 Q Mr. Shuman you indicated that on various occasions 23 while you worked for Illinoiys ou would be out in the field examining and watching the workers using various asbestos thermal thermal insulation products is that correct me ~ GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 ier" rey - '26 MR METCALF I object to the form of that question And I object to counsel's summarization and object to counsel's characterization of the other testimony MR HIGGINS I will restate the question BY MR HIGGINS Q While you were working for Illinois did you ever have occasion to be out in the field observing installers install asbestos containing thermal insulation products A Yes 10 Q Did you observe the tools of trade that were used by 11 the insulators A These were the tools of the trade that had been invoked 13 for many many years which would be knives and small saws pri- 14 marily 15 Q Was there anything unique about Kaylo that required 16 different tools of the trade 17 A They used the same tools of the trade 18 Q What about the installation method they the same 19 for Kaylo as for other asbestos containing thermal insulation A Yes they were the same Q While you were at Illinois was there ever any the 22 attempt made to find a substitute for asbestos in Kaylo 23 A Yes there was because asbestos is the highest priced ingredient and as any production person would be trying to get 25 the cost down without sacrificing properties And so while there there ~ GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 _ PHONE 717 234-2109 ead was no one person assigned to the product any time anyone had some idea to what might be used in place of asbestos it was looked into Q Was there an ongoing effort to change or improve the produce in any way MR METCALF Object to the form MR HIGGINS BY MR HIGGINS I will restate the question Q What if any efforts were being made on the part of 10 Illinois to change modify or improve the product in any 11 way A The principal angle of course would be to get the 13 thermal conductants or the thermal resistance as low as possible 14 and maintain the handability and to accomplish this at a low of 15 cost as possible So the changes that were made in investigating 16 of raw materials were for the purposes of ending up with the 17 highest qualify calcium silicate at the lowest price So this 18 was going on all the time while there was some possiblity of 19 finding other raw materials that might be suitable Q What other raw materials were used or did Illinois Illinois attempt to use as a replacement for asbestos A Well we used first of all the glass fibers since glass glass 23 fibers are silicate but they didn't work because the lime 24 attacked the silica of glass just like it would the silica that 25 had been added and so the fibers had lost their strength so the GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 we \ 1 H 1 . 28 glass fibers wouldn't work | Then mineral wool was also tried but their fibers were too thick and they didn't disburse very well in the slurry And then organic materials were used such as bagasse and wood fibers such as might be used in papers as organic material All of these were tried to see what kind of product would result Q While you were at Illinois was an adequate or reasonable substitute ever discovered -- 10 MR METCALF 11 BY MR HIGGINS Object to the form -- for replacing the asbestos fiber 13 A If you would accept that the materials were non- 14 mineral then some of the organic fibers would make a suitable 15 product But if the user for example would prefer that it be 16 all mineral then of course asbestos was the only one that would 17 work But we knew if there ever was a time that we'd have to 18 abandon the asbestos that organic fibers would work 19 Q Were you aware of the fact that in 1958 the Kaylo division of Illinois was acquired by Corning Fiber- 21 glass Corporation A Well I heard it on the radio Q Did you have any involvement in the decision in the acquisition at all 25 A None at all ~~ GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 ~ 29 Q In 1958 you became employed by Corning Fiberglass Corporation is that right A Right Q Would you describe what the nature of your job was for Corning A Well I was used in the sales department as a consultant consultant to help the sales people and of course with the acquisition many of the sales people weren't entirely familiar with Kaylo and its properties So I would help any of the sales people or the sales 10 offices that requested help as a consultant 11 Q Did your job duties at Corning include any f research or engineering ' ' 13 A No. 14 Q You said that the sales people would contact you 15 A. Yes 16 Q Would they be privy to information about what was going 17 on on the job site to your knowledge or what would be the nature 18 of their contact what would they discuss with you 19 A In general a salesman would be contacting contractors and if the contractor were to ask questions that were technically 21 a little above them then they would merely say to the contractor we'll get someone that would help and I would be called Q Would you ever contact or have communications with the contractors directly 25 A If the salesman wished it yes L. GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 '30 Q Would you field complaints about the product about Kaylo and about its servicability and usefulnesosn particular jobs A If that came up as a question from the field it would be relayed to me and then either I would answer it directly to the salesman or if it was important enough then I would go with the salesman out into the field Q Did you ever in your capacity as manager of engineering engineering services for Corning Fiberglass Corporation did you ever 10 receive any complaints about the dustiness of Kaylo products 11 A No. MR HIGGINS Could we go off the record for a second 13 Discussion held off the record 14 BY MR HIGGINS Q Mr. Shuman in your experience as a civil engineer 16 are you familiar with the concept of solubility as it relates to 17 asbestos containing thermal insulation 18 A Of solubility is the chemical term and you're 19 familiar with it in that sense Q How is the term solubility used in connection with 21 the asbestos insulation business 22 A The solubility enters in from the standpoint of so- 23 called accidental service that is accidental wetting of the material A material that has lower negligible solubility can 25 be wet and of course it loses its thermal value at the time then " GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 31 if it dries out of course it still will perform Whereas other materials that are partially soluble may actually disintergrates enough so that they do not remain on the line Q Is solubility an important concept in the field of asbestos thermal insulation MR METCALF Object to the form A Well it's important from the standpoint of servicability under the called accidental conditions because in large industrial plants you can never tell when something may happen 10 that will wet the lines And if the material is insoluble why 11 no particular harm is done whereas if it is soluble the material may have to be replaced 13 BY MR HIGGINS 14 Q During the 1940's while you were employed at Owens- 15 Illinois did you have occasion to make any comparisons in solu- 16 bility between a product like hydrous calcium silicate and 17 product like 85 percent mag 18 A Yes because we would wet both of them to see what 19 their reactions were In fact in the field it was characteristic charcteristic to take the 85 percent mag and break it up into chunks in a 21 bucket of water and make called mud which is then the material that was put on as I said before in filling cracks and 23 crevices Q What if anything does that say about the solubility 25 of the 85 percent mag- ~~~ GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 ~+J '32 It was much higher than calcium silicate would be Q What would the calcium silicate product do upon exposure to say water in bucket as was described A Well of course it would absorb a large amount of water because its density is only about 12 pounds per cubic foot But if you take it out and dry it you'd still have the product back Q You would not have this crumbling effect as you just described 10 A No in fact at one time a plant was inundated in 11 flood and pieces of the calcium silicate was dug out of the mud and were washed off and dried and they were just as they had 13 been before 14 Q You were testifying about the concept of friability and 15 I think I misunderstood your testimony 16 Did you have occasion during the 1940's to compare the 17 friability of a product like Kaylo calcium silicate hydrous 18 calcium silicate product like Kaylo to a product like 85 percent 19 mag A This was part of handability In other words if you 21 handle it and we actually would put pieces on pipes in the plant merely as training of salesmen for one thing but in order to get 23 some sense of handability of the materials And of course then the difference between the friability of calcium silicate which 25 was very low and the higher friability of 85 percent mag was GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 33 rather evident Q Is that to say that one product crumbles more readily than the other A Yes Q Which crumbles more readily A The 85 percent mag would crumble more easily than the calcium silicate MR HIGGINS Off the record again Discussion held off the record 10 MR HIGGINS 11 questions Thank you Mr. Shuman I have no further CROSS EXAMINATION 13 BY MR METCALF 14 Q Mr. Shuman my name is Conard Metcalf I represent 15 plaintiffs in this lawsuit whose name is Patton B. Gilmore 16 I will be asking you some questions today if I ask a question 17 you don't understand ask me to rephrase it If I ask you a ques- 18 tion that you don't hear please ask me to repeat it so that when 19 you give an answer why we all know that you've heard and under- stood the question 21 Is that fair enough 22 A Yes Q Because I've not had a chance to take what we lawyers call a discovery deposition to find out what your testimony is 25 going to be my questions today may be somewhat groping and slow ~G~EIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 ~ - 34 paced so I hope you'll bear with me A Certainly Q Mr. Shuman let me go back initially to the time you joined Illinois Do I understand that was in 1944 A That's right Q At that time your office was at the Illinois manufacturing facility in Berlin New Jersey is that correct A That's right O What was your title 10 A When I started it was research engineer 11 Q As research engineer to whom did you report Mr. Shuman A To start it out to this Mr. John Seldon whom I had 13 mentioned before and then he got different assignmenatnsd later 14 on it was to U. E. Bowes who was director of research of Owens- 15 Illinois eee 16 ' State for us to the best of your recollection Mr. 17 Shuman when you first began reporting to Mr. U. E. Bowes 18 A This is just a few months after I had come there in 19 1944 Q Then before 1945 you were reporting as a research 21 engineer to Mr. Bowes A Right Q Mr. Bowes position was director of research A Of Illinois Glass Company the whole company 25 Q Director of reserach for Illinois Glass Company ~GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 35 A Right Q For what period of time did you report to Mr. Bowes A Continually until he became ill and I can't remember the year so that this would be later in the 40's And I think then Mr. Tom Collins became in charge of the Kaylo division and then I reported to him Q Where were Mr. Bowes offices located A Toledo Ohio main office Q Then do I understand from about sometime in 1944 until 10 the late 1940's you reported directly to Mr. Bowes and got the 11 assignments directly from Mr. Bowes A Yes 13 Q Did your position change from research engineer in 14 1944 at any time before 1958 15 A Yes from 1947 to '49 I was plant manager So I was 16 in charge of the laboratory and the plant operation 17 Q 18 Berlin When you say plant manager you're New Jersey talking about the 19 A Berlin New Jersey plant from 1947 to 1949 Q After 1949 what was your title 21 A I of course had been in effect director of research all the time so then since I was moved to Toledo in 1955 I merely used the title director of research Q Was that in 1950 when you went to Toledo as director 25 of research were you director of research for the entire Owens- "~~ GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 ' 36 Illinois Company or was that director of research for the Kaylo. division of Illinois A For the Kaylo division for Illinois Q In 1950 was there a director of research for the entire Illinois Company A Yes I'm trying to think of his name but I can't right at the minute But there was a director of research who took the place of Mr. Bowes Q From 1950 until 1958 while you were employed by Owens- 10 Illinois did your position change from director of research 11 A No because this also included my consulting to the sales department So that the work which was done in the division 13 laboratory at Berlin that still continued so I would travel to 14 Berlin from time to time as necessary Q Approximately how often would you travel from Toledo 16 Ohio to Berlin New Jersey in a given year between 1950 and 1958p 17 A I would say roughly twice a month it would vary some 18 months less and of course some months more but it was on that 19 order Q Are you familiar with an Laboratory in Saranac New York entity known as Saranac 22 A Yes 23 ' When did you first become familiar with Saranac 24 Laboratory 25 A I can't remember the year but it was explained to me GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 37 that the company had a policy of being avoid any hazards that it could avoid careful in its plant to | So they employed the called Saranac Laboratory which as I understand a large in- dustrial research laboratory that looked into hazards in plants And Illinois had employed them for a number of years as I understood it Q Did you yourself have any direct contact with Saranac Laboratory or representatives or employees of Saranac Laboratory A Only in the secondary way when they asked for a sample 10 of Kaylo dust that I then as plant manager arranged for that to 11 be sent to them But I never went to the Saranac Laboratory Q At some point between 1947 and 1949 you caused Kaylo 13 dust to be sent to Saranac Laboratory 14 A That's right 15 Q. Did you ever obtain or see any results of any analysis 16 done on the Kaylo dust that you sent to Saranac Laboratory 17 A Not until a recent deposition I was shown the ones 18 The only thing I ever heard was verbal 19 Q When you heard verbal reports of the results of analysis or testing of dust you sent from whom did you hear those reports William Hazard 21 A I think from Mr. I think he was health physicist or some name like that I don't know his official title -- Was Mr. William Hazard an employee of Illinois A Yes 25 Q Was he an employee of Illinois as long as you Fee GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 amdeonlguatds beebactLe ' 38 were an employee of Illinois to the best of your knowledge A To the best of knowledge that the whole period he was in the same activity of checking on plant operations Q | Did Mr. Hazard come to the Berlin plant while you were officed there between 1944 and 1949 A Yes Q About how often did Mr. Hazard travel or visit the Berlin New Jersey plant between that time A It varied because he didn't have any called set 10 schedule it was more a case of if there was something that 11 needed to be looked at Or for example if he suggested that some changes be made in the plant then he would come back to see that 13 we had made them and the results suited what his analysis had 14 dictated 15 Did he between 1944 and 1949 make suggestions with 16 regard to installation of ventilation or exhaust equipment along 17 the Kaylo production line in the Berlin New Jersey plant 18 MR HIGGINS Object to the question it's outside the 19 scope of direct examination it's hearsay it requires a hearsay response based on hearsay And it's totally irrelevant to the 21 issues in this case MR METCALF I'm willing to give you a continuing objection to hearsay BY MR METCALF 25 Q Do you remember the question | GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 39 A Only partially Q My question was whether Mr. Hazard to your knowledge between 1944 and 1949 made any suggestions with regard to instal- lation of ventilation equipment in the Berlin New Jersey plant along the Kaylo production lines MR HIGGINS And the same objection A Well Bill Hazard's function wasn't to tell us how to do it but what he was concerned with was the result If he felt that the condition in a certain area was undesirable then he 10 would say this it would have to be changed And then we would 11 change it and he would check to see if we had the change But the facilities that was the mechanical facilities was not of 13 his concern 14 BY MR METCALF 15 Q As a result of any particular visits that Mr. Hazard 16 made to the Berlin New Jersey plant between 1944 and 1949 did 17 you cause ventilation or exhaust equipment to be installed along 18 the Kaylo production lines in the Berlin New Jersey plant 19 MR HIGGINS Same objection May I have a continuing objection to all questions concerning the Kaylo production line 21 MR METCALF Sure BY MR METCALF Q You can answer A Would you mind repeating 25 MR METCALF Could you repeat the question GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 40 Question read back by stenographer A We were enlarging the plant continually and of course equipment then would be installed and so that it was only after something had been running that Mr. Hazard would then check to see that it was suitable Then he would comment it was acceptable or not as the case may be But the installations we were doing all along because again that was part of the plant as to minimize the amount of dust that was in the area BY MR METCALF : 10 Q What was the purpose for trying to minimize the amount 11 of dust in the area A This was just policy that the company had was that the 13 dust should be down at low levels because it was recognized in 14 the industry that dust was a hazard regardless of what the dust 15 might be 16 Q Did Illinois have a production facility at 17 Sayreville New Jersey 18 A Yes it did 19 0 What was produced at Sayreville New Jersey Owens- Illinois plant 21 A That was a calcium silicate of heavy density that was used as roof tile That was different than the material produced in Berlin which is thermal insulation Q Mr. Higgins asked you about what the process was for 25 producing the Kaylo in the Berlin New Jersey plant ~ GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 ~ 41 What was the process for producing the material that was produced in Sayreville New Jersey A Same process O In other words it was a wet slurry A wet slurry that was indurated and then dried By the way have you ever seen 85 percent mag insulation being manufactured A No. Q Do you have an understanding that it's manufactured heating as 10 by a wet slurry premolded process 11 A I understand it's by a wet slurry process Q In the Berlin New Jersey plant where Kaylo was made 13 Mr. Shuman let me see if I understand this first There's a wet 14 slurry that was injected into a mold is that correct 15 More or less poured into a mold 16 Q Then while the slurry was in the mold it was heated 17 A Then it was run into the autoclave Sometimes there 18 was a holding time because enough cars would have to be filled before they would be put into the autoclave But that was very often done in the deep tunnel to keep it from cooling and then a called load would be run into the autoclave as I've said 22 before and then later dried 23 Q An autoclave is a -- 24 A High pressure steam cylinder Q That would heat the product that was in the mold \___ GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 42 A And that would induce the reaction between the lime and silica that wouldn't occur at ordinary temperature Q Would it be fair to say that the reaction that occurred in the autoclave had no effect on the composition or structure of the asbestos that was in the product A No the asbestos that's in there is a reinforcing Q The asbestos that went into the product at the mixing end was the same as the asbestos that came out of the product at the finished end is that fair to say 10 A I think that's a fair statement 11 Q After the Kaylo slurry was autoclaved what was the next step in the process 13 A Drying 14 Q How and where did the drying take place 15 A The material was taken from the autoclave and run into 16 a dryer And then from the dryer it was then sent into the 17 finishing room called where it was sized and packaged 18 Q Could you tell me where at what stage in the process 19 the Kaylo was taken out of the mold A At the end of the dryer 21 Q Did the dryer heat the product 222 A Yes It was in effect an oven in ordinary language Q Was there a person whose job it was to remove the Kaylo from the mold 25 A This was a line operation and people would remove the ~ GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 ed . et ed cee 43 material from the mold and send it in whatever line it was to finish and then the molds would go back into production Q . When the product was taken out of the mold was it put on a conveyor A At one time of course much of this was done by hand it would be put on cars and carts and then just hauled over But later on conveyors were installed Q Do you remember about when the conveyors were installed A Well on the order of 1948 somewhere along there 10 Q The people whose job it was to handle the product 11 either taking it from the mold after the drying to the finishing area or placing it on a conveyor belt were they given respirators 13 to wear 14 MR HIGGINS Same objection 15 A. Respirators were available if it was felt that it was 16 dusty This was before we would get the dust collecting equip- 17 ment operating like it should respirators were available all 18 throughout the plant 19 BY MR METCALF 2 Handling the tiles the men handling the tiles after they were taken out of the molds and either carried to the 22 shaping room or put on a conveyor belt that handling process 23 created dust from the product did it not 24 A To a small extent because you see the product then 25 had been reacted so it wasn't dusty in the sense of a cloud of GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 44 o dust because there were no loose fibers or maybe I should say loose particles that would create dust But like everything else if you bumped it a little particles of dust might fly out But it was not considered to be a dusty operation Q Were you able to see dust in the air at that point of the operation A Only momentarily if something had happened to bump it Did you ever have occasion to visit the Sayreville New Jersey Illinois facility 10 A Yes 11 Q Did you have occasion to observe that production line in operation A Yes 14 Q Approximately when did you first visit the Sayreville 15 facility 16 A While it was being built See they were building the 17 Sayreville plant while the Berlin plant was improving its 18 facilities to make pipe insulations So during that whole 19 interval until the Sayreville plant was operating I would go up occasionally IERE 21 ' After the Sayreville plant was in operation and on eT Nen line did you have occasion to periodically visit the plant and fe observe the production process A Yes 25 Q You've already said the production process was | GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 ~ 45 essentially the same as it was for the Kaylo process in Berlin New Jersey A In principal they were identical Q At Sayreville I take it then there were also workers whose job it was to remove the product from a mold after it was dried and then carry or convey the product to a shaping room A But they had more called mechanical handling facilities than what we had at Berlin so it was much more mechanized 10 Q At that point of the operation when the product was 11 being handled by workers after removal from the mold would you say there was more dust or less dust generated than the equiva- 13 lent process at the Berlin New Jersey plant 14 A I would say less 15 ' At the Berlin New Jersey plant we've been talking 16 about a shaping room is that correct 17 A It really was given the name finishing room meaning 18 that you would take the product as it came from the molds and 19 then do whatever was necessary to end up with the sizes that were desired and then it was packaged in cartons for shipping 21 Q This all took place in the finishing room A That's what was called the finishing room Q How was the product manufactured into the desired size in the finishing room 25 A For example the block would come out 18 inches wide ~" GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 ~ 46 and 36 inches long of various thicknesses If the desired width was 12 inches of course it would be cut into that size If the desired width was six inches it would be cut into that size or sometimes it was cut into three inch blocks by almost on special order because that was not common The six inch width was a very common size and of course it was trimmed to the end for the standard of the industry 36 inches And if necessary for thinwear it would be split so that for example you might have one inch thickness or an inch and a 10 half thickness or two inch thickness or three inch thickness and 11 so the sizes then would be made in accordance with what the anticipated sales demand would be and then it would be cartoned 13 and marked and ready for shipment from the warehouse 14 Q Did this cutting of the product though was that done 15 with a pocket knife 16 A This was all done mechanically by saws Maybe I should 17 say saws and sanders to even or smooth the top surface 18 Q When the product was sawed did that generate any dust 19 A That would and that's where we were installing dust collecting equipment so it would not get out into the work area 21 2 Then after the product was sawed it was handled by workers who placed it into cardboard cartons is that correct A Cardboard cartons Did that handling process generate any dust 25 MR HIGGINS I again reiterate my earlier objection td GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 ~ ageing, oe 47 to this whole line of questioning A Not particularly it was by that time where it had been handled it had gone through all this mechanical equipment and there's very little free dust BY MR METCALF O You say very little was there occasionally dust gen- erated by that handling process that was visible A This would be very local where somebody might rub it but it was not what you would call a cloud of dust or dusty area 10 per se 11 Q Then after the product was put into -- after the Kaylo was put into cardboard cartons you say it was loaded was it 13 generally loaded on boxcars | 14 A It depended where it was going Much of the orders 15 were shipped by truck but if it went for longer distances then 16 it might go by car 17 Where there workers at the Berlin New Jersey plant 18 whose job it was to load the boxed Kaylc onto boxcars 19 A Yes this would be the shipping room Q Was the finishing room process and the shipping room 21 process of Sayreville plant to your knowledge substantially the same as that in the Berlin New Jersey plant A Well no because the roof tile which was 18 by 36 inches was used as manufactured so there was none of this sawing 25 into other sizes And so those materials might be put on pallets mt resee eae \ - GE-IGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 ~ enmas 48 stacked and strapped then the whole pallet would then be handled for shipment | Q So there was no sawing going on in the finishing room at Sayreville A No. The only thing that would be done would be sanding of the top surface because from the autoclave that would usually have a rough surface Q I take it there was local exhaust ventilation where the sanding was occurring 10 A There was dust collectors all around 11 Q Then at Sayreville was the roof tile -- by the way the roofing tile was that also called Kaylo 13 A Kaylo roof tile 14 Q Was the Kaylo roof tile then put into cardboard boxes 15 and loaded on trucks or boxcars 16 A Usually it went on the pallets because they were large 17 pieces and out on the field it was much easier to take them with 18 a pallet up on the roof of the building and then workmen would 19 merely carry it into the installation area Q So the pallets with the loose product were then loaded 21 into boxcars or trucks A Or trucks , Do you remember what year the Sayreville New Jersey plant went on line actually producting Kaylo roof tile 25 A I don't know exactly but it would be about 1948 in GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 49 that area Q Was there a plant manager at Sayreville New Jersey A Yes ' Who was that A David Innes Q Do you remember for what period of time he was the plant manager at Sayreville A I don't remember the time Q Was it up through at least 1952 10 I think in that neighborhood but again I don't know 11 precisely Q Did let's say between 1944 and 1949 Mr. Shuman did 13 Mr. Hazard ever come to the Berlin New Jersey plant and take 14 samples of the air to test the dust concentration in the air 15 Yes 16 Q Do you remember with approximately what frequency he 17 did this between 1944 and 1949 18 A As a rule it would be when we were making changes 19 That is if he had established a certain area was acceptable of course he wouldn't come back until there was some reasotno 21 suspect that something else needed checking although he might come in just as an unannounced routine check to see how things were going MR HIGGINS 25 according to my watch Can I interrupt you it's 11:46 now It might be a good time to quit me ~ GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 te R eee Aone - 50 MR METCALF Would this be a good time for you to quit A If you want to go another five or ten minutes that's all right MR METCALF Why don't we stop now and take a break MR HICKERNELL This ends reel one Recess MR HICKERNELL This is reel number two in the depo- sition of Everett C. Shuman and time is 1:30 p.m. 10 MR METCALF Could we have the last question and 11 answer read back Last question and answer read back by stenographer 13 BY MR METCALF 14 Q Let's discuss a different area for a while Mr. Shuman 15 Have you had your deposition taken before 16 A Yes 17 Q Have you had your deposition taken before in connection 18 with a case involving a person who claimed he or she received 19 some sort of asbestos related disease A I can't remember in those terms but they were deposi- 21 tions that I had made for a case in Virginia last year and then one other one this year ment MR HIGGINS Before it continues let me make a state- I suppose this line of questioning would be relevant if 25 this were a discovery deposition and I think you are treating ~ L_. GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 ~ 51 your cross examination as for purposes of discovery as well as simply for cross examinatioonf this witness I would like to not have this aspect of the testimony included in the cross examination of this witness should this video taped depositiobne used for purposes of trial Therefore I would object to any questions dealing with prior depositions as being outside of the course in scope of the direct examination and not relevant to the issues in the Gilmore case I will register that objection and of course allow him to continue with 10 his discussion if all you're inquiring about is depositions for 11 the purposes of discovery BY MR METCALF 13 Q Do I understand then Mr. Shuman that you've given 14 two prior depositions 15 A. Really three 16 Q Those are all within the last year 17 A Two in 1979 and one in 1980 18 Were any of those video taped depositions 19 A None Q Have you ever testified in court ' 21 A No. Q Have you ever given anyone a written statement of your recollection of your involvement with the Kaylo product A Well in one of these situations I was given a list 25 of questions that I answered written questions that I answered | GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 52 written Q Other than that you've never given anyone a written statement A Not that I recall Q Have you ever met with Mr. Higgins prior to today No. Q Have you ever met with Mr. Stancati prior to today A Yes Q 10 today 11 A How many times have you met with Mr. Stancati before Twice I think I'm not sure Q Do you remember where you met with him 13 A At one of these depositions 14 Q Did you ever talk on the telephone with Mr. Higgins 15 at any time before today 16 A Well when he phoned me to make arrangements for this 17 deposition which is just recently | 18 Q Did you review any documents written materials in preparation for your deposition today A Only to read the prior deposition which I just received 21 last week Q Mr. Shuman between 1944 and about 1949 do I understand that you were reporting directly to Mr. U. E. Bowes A Yes 25 In an average month during that period between 1944 and - GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 ~ 53 1949 approximately how many times would you talk with Mr. Bowes A That was highly variable but it might be frequent and it might be with a lull in between In addition of course since I was reporting to him I would mail in a monthly activity report as was done for all departments Q What sort of matters would you discuss in the monthly activity report that you would send to Mr. Bowes A All the things that were physically underway Q These things are research projects that you had 10 A Research and development or if something had happened = out in the field that was unusual I would report back Q Would you report to Mr. Bowes about any visits that 13 William Hazard had made to the Berlin New Jersey plant 14 A Not specifically because I presumed that Mr. Bowes was 15 aware of what Mr. Hazard was doing 150 Q Did you in turn Mr. Shuman receive written reports 17 or letters periodically from Mr. Bowes 18 A A few but not very often 19 Q What sort of written correspondence would you receive from Mr. Bowes 21 A This was more in the line of inquiry or suggestions as to something that might be investigated Q Did you ever discuss with Mr. Bowes any health hazards that might be associated with inhalation of asbestos dust fibers 25 A This would come up as a routine thing because he was GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 ~ aware that the plant was improving its operating facilities and that we had been working with Mr. Hazard so if he had some specific question he might ask it But he presumed that work was underway as had been planned Q This would be with regard to potential asbestos related health hazards including other things A It would be whatever hazard Bill Hazard had pointed out we should be concerned about Q Did those hazards include potential hazards related to 10 inhalation of asbestos dust fibers 11 A We didn't know anything about the significance of the inhalation of asbestos 13 Q When you say we to whom are you referring 14 A I'm talking about the Berlin operation 15 Q At what point in your career did you if at all become 16 aware of potential health hazards associated with inhalation 17 of asbestos dust fibers 18 A The called cancerous phase I didn't become aware of 19 that until I read it in the newspapers somewhere along the 1960's when it got all the publicity Prior to that and this 21 again I'm not too sure of the date Bill Hazard had pointed out that the Saranac Lake Laboratory had found a reaction that they had described as asbestosis which different than silicosis was but nothing was said as to about the significance of one or the 25 other Of course I was aware that silicosis was something we had ~ GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 55 always been concerned about so this was just another form of silicosis Q Would you have had this discussion with Mr. Hazard where you became aware of the asbestosis reaction discovered in the Saranac Lake research before 1958 A I would say it was in the early 50's See I was no longer plant manager then but of course I was still in charge of engineering which of course had to do with plant operations So he had mentioned it in that period and I can't pick the year 10 but I would say -'53 or somewhere along in there 11 Q Do you think it would have been before 1952 A Well it could but I sort of doubt it Because see 13 hadn't left the plant until 1950 and at that time I hadn't 14 heard anything about it 15 After 1958 when Corning Fiberglass Company pur- 16 chased the Berlin New Jersey from Illinois did you have 17 knowledge about the basic composition of Kaylo as manufactured 18 by Corning 19 A Not specifically but it was presumed that they just con- tinued to manufacture the same calcium silicate that had been 21 made Q So would it be fair to say that there was no substantial difference between the composition of Kaylo before 1958 and after 1958 25 MR HIGGINS Objection that wasn't his testimony at ~GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 all He said he wasn't aware of any changes MR METCALF I am just asking a different question now MR HIGGINS That's not a fair characterization of his earlier testimony A The thing I'm going back to is what happened in the field there were no changes that we saw in the product in the field and what we had seen before BY MR METCALF Q While you were with Corning from what 1958 10 until 1961 11 A That's right Q Did you have a job title 13 A Well probably but I can't remember what it was It 14 was the equivalent of a sales consultant to the sales department 15 Q Were you a full employee of Corning Fiber- 16 glass 17 A Yes You 18 Q were a time employee of Corning Fiber- 19 glass from 1958 until 1961 A That's right 21 Q As a consultant to the sales department did you draft or lend assistance or advice in drafting or putting together product catalogs A Oh only to the extent that if they had something that 25 they had prepared they came and asked me to look over to see that GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 _ 234-2109 57 there was nothing technically wrong in what they had done Q While employed by Corning Fiberglass to whom did you report A H. T. Williams position Q What did H. T. Williams have in the company ? A He was sales manager for industrial insulations Q Were there monthly or other periodic meetings that you attended while employed by Corning Fiberglass in performance of your duties and responsibilities 10 A 11 attend There was usually a monthly sales meeting that I would Q Who would conduct these monthly sales meetings 13 A H. T. Williams 14 Q Who else would attend the monthly sales meetings 15 A Well I can't recall specifically people but those who 16 were interested in the insulation field would attend from time 17 to time 18 There was a vice president I can't recall his name that would attend occasionally 19 Q After the earily 1950's information you learned about some of the results of the Saranac studies with Kaylo and 21 asbestos reaction did you learn any further additional information information about potential health hazards associated with inhalation of asbestos or Kaylo A No. 25 Q You received no further information from Mr. Hazard in GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 ~ .58 that regard A No. Q Did you know a Dr. Shook while you were employed A He was the medical doctor for Illinois Q For what period of time was Dr. Shook the medical director for Illinois A He was medical director I think when I started in 1944 and later on he became ill and I can't remember what year it was that he dropped out of active service 10 Q Would it have been around the 1950's that Dr. 11 Shook dropped out of active service A It seems to me it was earlier but again I'm somewhat 13 hazy because the activities then were really carried on by Mr. 14 Hazard rather than Dr. Shook although I presume Mr. Hazard was 15 working with Dr. Shook in some way but I don't know specifically 16 Q Did you ever meet Dr. Shook 17 A Yes 18 Q Did you meet Dr. Shook while you were plant manager 19 of the Berlin New Jersey plant A I think I met him even before then 21 Q Did you meet Dr. Shook periodically then while he was active with Illinois A No it was only when something unusually came up that I'd see Dr. Shook because he had the whole company to look after 25 Q What sort of unusual thing would come up that would GEIGE-R & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 ~ 59 cause you to see Dr. Shook A Well the plant had a routine ray program for all employees which of course would have been under his jurisdiction Q Anything other than his administering an ray program A No. Q Did you ever have any discussions with Dr. Shook re- garding potential health hazards associated with inhalation of asbestos fiber A No. 10 Q While you were working for Corning Fiberglass 11 did you ever meet or become acquainted with a person by the name of C. G. Staelin 13 A I don't recall that name erence ee ce ee Se 14 ' I take it from your earlier testimony in response to Th 15 Mr. Higgins questions that it was important to you to see how 16 the Kaylo product was being used in the field is that a fair 17 statement 18 A Yes 19 Q It was important to you to know this so that you could make any changes or alterations in the manufacturing process to make a better product 22 A Yes that was our overall aim to keep improving the oad en 23 product as best we could 24 Q I guess to improve the product and to know whether or not it was doing what it was supposed to do it was important to lL. GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 60 know where it would be used and under what conditions it would be used A Yes Q Would it be fair to say that it's important to know whether or not a product for example Kaylo from your point of view can be used by applicators of the product safely and without any hazards to themselves A Well that would be implied that we were concerned of how the applicators would use it 10 Q Your concern with that for among other reasons the 11 safety of the applicators is that correct A Well yes but the product that we were making was 13 so similar to what had already been used and as I pointed out we 14 used the usual tools of the trade that there was no reason to 15 look at it from any other standpoint than the handability That 16 is if someone was holding onto a piece and it would break unex- 17 pectedly this of course would be undesirable 18 Q While you were director of research and plant manager 19 at the Berlin New Jersey plant Mr. Shuman would it have made ^' difference to you in your ongoing process to improve the Kaylo 21 product to know whether or not that product had the capability of causing asbestosis in experiments at Saranac Laboratory MR HIGGINS Objection that calls for pure speculation speculation on the part of the witness 25 A We didn't know about any such thing so we never even ~~---GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 61 considered it BY MR METCALF Q My question to you is if you had known about it I want you to assume as a fact that in 1948 Saranac Laboratory wrote a letter to Illinois telling Illinois that Kaylo inhalation in guinea pigs caused asbestosis and should be handled as an industrially hazard product Assuming that that letter was in existence and written to Illinois in 1948 would it have made a difference to 10 you in your development of the Kaylo product to have that 11 information MR HIGGINS Same objection because of pure specula- 13 tion I'm not sure that's a fair characterization to a '48 14 letter and there's been no foundation made as to whether or not 15 this witness ever saw that letter or was aware of it 16 it's pure speculation 17 BY MR METCALF So again 18 2 Do you remember the question Mr. Shuman 19 A Yes Q Can you answer that , 21 A The only way I would make a change is if the orders came down from top management Q Top management would be whom would Mr. Bowes be top management 25 A He would be my direct top management ~ GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 62 Q So for you to make a change in the product you would have in the ordinary chain of command in communication Owens- Illinois would have received an order as it were from Mr. Bowes to | do so A Well I would of course follow whatever I was asked to do When you were asked to do things the person who asked you to do them was the person to whom you reported Mr. Bowes A Yes 10 As I understand it in your professional career Mr. 11 Shuman you've occasionally published articles describing research research you've done is that fair 13 A Yes 14 ' Approximately how many articles have you published 15 A. Oh I don't think I counted them probably a dozen 16 Q Would all these articles relate to research that you've 17 conducted or supervised yourself 18 A Yes 19 ' I take it that before you had published one of these articles it was important to you as an engineer and scientist to 21 know that you're you're on pretty solid ground ground with regard to statements you made in the articles A Yes Q Would it be I guess unlikely that you'd make a state- 25 ment without some foundation for making a statement in an articlearticle written by you ~G~EIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 63 A Yes Q I guess it would be fair to say then writing up research and technical information it's important not to make unfounded statements A That's right Q I take it it would be fair to say that you learn pretty early on in your professional career that it's important to be able to back up statements you make in articles that you write and publish 10 A Yes 11 Q In 1952 you published an article about hydrous calcium silicate insulation did you not 13 A Yes 14 Q Mr. Shuman let me hand you what's been marked as 15 Plaintiff's Exhibit OI 16 Let me hand you what's been marked as Plaintiff's 17 Exhibit OI and ask you if that's a copy of an article published published 18 by you 19 A Yes Q Does that article appear in April 1952 editioonf 21 Petroleum Engineer magazine A Yes Q If you would just take a moment to look at the article and make sure it's the one you published 25 A It is ~~ GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 4 64 Q There's just a couple of questions I want to ask about that On page 62 of the article Mr. Shuman the first full paragraph in the middle column of the page Are you with me there A Okay O It's the paragraph that consists of one sentence and reads applicators appreciate the fact that hydrous calcium silicate is toxic and quote on the hands unquote A Yes 10 Q What foundation or research did you have available to 11 you to indicate that hydrous calcium silicate is toxic and easy on the hands 13 A The word toxic as I was brought up in chemistry was 14 poison and there were no known poisons in calcium silicate and 15 the lime and silica had reacted so that they were a calcium 16 silicate not either lime or silica So there was no known 17 poison substances in the material 18 Q Was it your understanding in April of 1952 that asbestos 19 was toxic A That's right asbestos was toxic meaning poison 0 Just so I understand what's your definition of poison 22 A Something that reacts chemically 23 Q In 1952 it was your understanding that asbestos did not 24 react chemically in any way with animals or people in handlinigt 25 A That was my understanding The effect was more L__.GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 65 mechanical than chemical ' A Q A At least that was your understanding That was my understanding In 1952 Yes Mr. Shuman let me hand you what's been marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit OI and ask if you can identify it I will let Mr. Higgins look at it first Do you have the documents marked Plaintiff's Exhibit 10 OI Mr. Shuman 11 A Yes Q Is that a page document 13 A Yes 14 Q Is it dated February 12th 1943 15 A Yes 16 ' Does it purport to be signed by U. E. Bowes director 17 of research 18 MR HIGGINS 19 BY MR METCALF The document speaks for itself Q Does that appear to you to be an accurate facsimile of 21 Mr. Bowes signature MR HIGGINS Objection there's been no foundation laid for Mr. Shuman's knowledge about Mr. Bowes signature MR METCALF I beg to differ with that but the objec- tion is noted " 234-2109 GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 one EN ar ee t 66 BY MR METCALF Q Does that appear to be Mr. Bowes signature to you A I think so Q Does the first page of OI have an inscription at the top of the page MR HIGGINS MR METCALF The document speaks for itself I need to ask him some questions but I agree it does speak for itself BY MR METCALF 10 Q Is that a reproduction of an Illinois letterhead 11 A It looks like it Q Is that the type of letterhead that you're familiar 13 with while working with Illinois during that time 14 A Yes 15 Q By the way did you ever meet Dr. L. U. Gardner 16 A No. 17 MR METCALF 18 document I have no further questions about that 19 BY MR METCALF Q Did you ever have the occasion to meet Dr. H. J. 21 Vordwald A No. Q Did you ever have any correspondence with Dr. Vordwald A Yes 25 ' What was the occasion of your correspondence with Dr. GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 67 Vordwald A This had to do with sending them a sample of Kaylo dust with which to conduct their research Q Did you ever become aware Mr. Shuman in a report dated January 30 1954 to Illinois Dr. Vordwald described Kaylo as having because of its asbestos contents toxic properties A No I never saw it Q If you had seen that would that have changed your belief about Kaylo being toxic 10 MR HIGGINS Objection counselor speculation to a 11 hypothetical question It's not supportive of the facts of the case 13 BY MR METCALF 14 ' You can answer 15 A. 16 ments Yes I presume I certainly would have weighed the com- 17 Q By 1960 Mr. Shuman had you come to the understanding 18 or belief that asbestos was a potentially toxic substance 19 MR HIGGINS What year MR METCALF By 1960 21 A Not particularly because all I had heard was of course reference this in to asbestosis but I had never heard any state- ments on the significance of what they meant To me it meant it was like silicosis but somewhat different 25 ~~ GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 ~ ' 68 BY MR METCALF Q Mr. Shuman let me hand you what's been marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit OCF after I've shown it to Mr. Higgins Would you be able to identify for us what Plaintiff's Exhibit OCF is MR HIGGINS Again the document speaks for itself A This seems to be an exposition of Kaylo and with illustrations of its use and some of the properties BY MR METCALF 10 Q Is that an Corning document 11 A It has Corning logo on it Q Is there a date on the first page 13 A October 1960 14 Q This is at a time when you were a time employee 15 of Corning Fiberglass is that correct October of '60 16 A Yes 17 Q At the page of Exhibit OCF marked 24 at the lower left- 18 hand column do you see that page 19 A Yes 21 Q The third full paragraph of the text of that page do you see that it begins Kaylo pipe insulation A Yes Does the last sentence of that paragraph read that it is irritating to the skin and toxic 25 A Yes ~ GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 69 MR HIGGINS Before he answers that let me interpose an objection First of all the documents speaks for itself Second of all there's been no foundation laid about whether or not this witness knows anything at all about this document You're just asking him to read from a document MR METCALF MR HIGGINS I'm just asking him to agree with it I don't see the relevance of any of his testimony BY MR METCALF 10 Q Mr. Shuman does Exhibit OCF contain certain techni- 11 cal information regarding Kaylo pipe covering A. Yes Q Is this a type of technical information about which 14 you would have been consulted by the sales department in Owens- 15 Corning 16 . A Usually 17 Q Does Exhibit OCF contain technical information that 18 you would have been able to supply to the sales department 19 A Well these are data that had been accumulated by Owens- Illinois before Corning took it over so I presume these are are 21 the same data that Illinois had used Q When you left Illinois in 1958 and began working with Corning did you discuss the knowledge you had about Kaylo with the Corning Fiberglass people 25 A Well the ones that were active in it already knew GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 70 because Mr. Williams had been an employee of the Kaylo division of Illinois before he took over this sales manager job of Corning ' What was Mr. Williams title again A I think he was sales manager of industrial insulation Q What was his title while he was working for Owens- Illinois A I don't recall I don't recall any specific title per se because he was more or less like a supervisor in the sales 10 department because of his long years of experience 11 Q Did Mr. Williams work for Illinois up until the time the Berlin plant was sold to Corning 13 A He had gone over to Corning a year or two prior 14 to that 15 ' Did you ever know a Mr. Burch whi youlwee re working 16 at Owens -- 17 A Yes Oscar Burch That was the name of the director 18 of research I was trying to think of earlier in the day when I pointed out that he had taken over after Mr. Bowes had become , ill ' So Mr. Burch became director of research for Owens- 22 Illinois 23 A Right 24 Q Did Mr. Burch subsequently work for Corning 25 A NO - GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 on 71 Q What did you say Mr. Burch's first name was | A Oscar T Q Did you know a Mr. M. D. Burch who worked at Owens- Corning A No. Q Do you know whether or not Corning Fiberglass Corporation had a position entitled director of personnel and industrial relations A I don't know of any 10 Q Would you have been as a consultant to the sales depart- 11 ment in a postiion to be aware of whether or not there was such a title within Corning Fiberglass 13 A No. 14 15 A 16 ration Were you ever acquainted with Mr. Harold Boechenstein He's the president of Corning Fiberglass Corpo- 17 , When did you first become acquainted with him 18 I don't recall specifically but I had known about him of course but actually didn't meet him because at my level there's no reason to be knobbing with the president But he was democratic so if we were in a meeting or something of that sort 22 he was never aloof But there was no reason for me to be in 23 close contact with him 24 Q How about Mr. W. P. Zimmerman 25 A He was one of the officials of Corning Fiberglass ~ GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 ~ fi a f as L de ow er gpm ae Cage Pega gnie rec Lp at Ma s we aa _ .72 1 | I met him but again occasionally 2 Q I take it you never had conversations about asbestos 3 | related health hazards with Mr. Boechenstein or Mr. - Zimmerman 4 A None 5 Q Did you ever meet or become acquainted with a Mr. 6 | Edward C. Ames 7 A The name sounds familiar but again I may have met him 8 | just occasionally I don't remember any lengthy contact with him 9 Q Does the name have any connection to public relations 10 | manager position in Corning Fiberglass 11 A I don't recall that now 12 Q 13 | for you 14 A Mr. Shuman does the name Ira Brought ring any bells Not at all 15 Q Does the name W. J. Stewart ring any bells for you 16 A W. J. Stewart was with Illinois 17 Q Was Mr. Stewart with Illinois in June of 1956 18 A I'm not sure 19 Q What was Mr. Stewart's position at Illinois 20 A At one time he was general manager of the Kaylo division 21 and then I lost contact with whatever he was doing But he was there for -- I can't remember two or three years or some number 23 | like that Q Did you and he both work for Illinois at the 25 same time GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 ~ 73 A Yes 0 After I show it to Mr. Higgins I will hand you Plaintiff's Exhibit 01-9 Do you have Plaintiff's Exhibit OI in your hands Yes Q Does that exhibit bear the date of June 12 1956 A Yes Q Does the name E. C. Shuman appear in that A Yes 10 MR HIGGINS Let me interpose another objection 11 Again the document speaks for itself there's been no foundation as to whether or not this witness can identify this exhibit 13 Apparently all counsel is seeking to do is to have him restate 14 information that is obviously on the document I think this 15 procedure is improper 16 MR METCALF I think we have to get to the point where where 17 we can identify it 18 MR HIGGINS Why don't you ask him the questions 19 can he identify this exhibit And if he can't then perhaps , you ought to go into something else 21 BY MR METCALF Q Mr. Shuman is that a memorandum that you recollect receiving during your employment with Illinois A I don't remember this 25 Q Do you remember anything about the contents stated in L__ GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 that memorandum A No. - Is that the first time you've ever seen that A Excepting that if I got a copy I must have gotten a copy way back But then at that time that I read it and stuck it in the file Q Perhaps you can help me with the initials that appear at the bottom of that document OI if you can read them for me A I can't make them out It's apparently W. something 10 but I can't make out what the -- can't determine what the last 11 one is what the last letter is Does the last letter appear to be an ? 13 A It could be -- 14 MR HIGGINS Objection I mean you're asking -15 unless you're going to qualify him as an expert in document 16 reading and interpretation I don't see what possible relevance 17 any of this testimony has 18 BY MR METCALF' 19 Q Do you have any familiarity with Mr. William G. Hazard's signature ' 21 A Very little I don't remember that I've seen that excepting in passing somewhere Q June 1956 would it be your recollection that Mr. Hazard was working for Illinois 25 A I think he still was at that time "~~ GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 ~ 75 Q Did you ever meet or become acquainted with a person by the name of J. M. Robinson A Doesn't ring a bell , I think that you testified in response to Mr. Higgins questions that when you joined Illinois sales of Kaylo were were very minor is that fair A Yes Q In fact when you joined Illinois the Berlin New Jersey plant was really only in the pilot stage | 10 A I had characterized it as that In fact at one time 11 called it the Berlin pilot plant By pilot the implication was it made usable standard material excepting on such a slow pro- ee nS 13 duction rate that large orders couldn't be accepted because we fe 14. couldn't fulfill them 15 Q I think you also said that the asbestos fiber used in 16 Kaylo was primarily chrysotile 17 A Yes . 18 Q You used the word primarily it implies to me some other fiber was also used a A Not regularly there were other asbestos that were on ee the market that we might try and add in small portions but not e anee 22 in any major change It was primarily all chrysotile rae EMITTg aL 23 Q Did Kaylo insulation periodically contain amosite 24 asbestos A 25 A No that would be of the heavy density material only ~~ GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 76 as a roof tile you remember they were making at Sayreville Q Is it your testimony then that the Kaylo thermal insu- lation never contained any amosite asbestos A It was not a fiber that was easy enough to handle to go into the light density material Q What was it about the amosite that made it difficult to handle A It's more of a discrete fiber that is it was stiff and would not fiberize as well as chrysotile 10 Q So more likely than not when you take samples of dust 11 from the Kaylo plant in Berlin New Jersey and sent them to Dr. 12 Vordwald of Saranac those dust samples would not have contained 13 any amosite 14 A Would not contain amosite 15 Q Have you ever met Dr. Garrett Schepers 16 A No not that I recall 17 Did I understand you to say that Kaylo thermal insu- 18 lation contained approximately 18 percent asbestos by weight A Approximately that's right Q It's your understanding is it not that Kaylo is still manufactured and marketed today by Corning Fiberglass 22 A I understand they're still making it yes 23 MR HIGGINS Are you implying that it contains 24 asbestos 25 MR METCALF I'm not implying anything Mr. Higgins GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 ~ 77 I'm just asking questions BY MR METCALF Q It would be fair to say would it not Mr. Shuman that after 1972 Kaylo did not contain asbestos A I have no idea Q The times that you observed asbestos containing insula- tion such as pipe covering and insulating cement being applied was that only while you were with the Portland Cement Association in Chicago or did you observe it being applied on occasions sub- 10 i sequent to that ; 11 A Well over the years whenever I was associated with 1 pieces of equipment and insulation was involved of course that's 4 ' 4 4 13 when I was involved in its being used f abet. 14 ob Q Did that occur periodically while you were plant hate 15 kn manager of the Berlin New Jersey plant ta EE 16 A At the Berlin New Jersey plant we made our own insu- Uae 17 lation 18 Q You also used some of it 19 A Oh yes that's what I'm implying is we made it and applied it as needed 21 Q Who applied it where you needed it A Workmen Q Were these members of the asbestos workers union or were they -- 25 At the beginning they were not later on they were 4 3 t } ~~G~EIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 78 , Did these workers who applied it were they supplied respirators by Illinois A If there was a need to 2 Was there ever a need to while they were applied A Again it depended on where this was being done If it was in an enclosed area they would be supplied as I said respira- tors were always available But in most applications you sawed a piece and then you do something and there isn't any continual operation that produces dust in applications 10 Q I'm not sure of the answer to my question is yes or 11 no Did you have occasion to supply respirators to the people A I think I said yes we did when the occasion arose 13 meaning closed areas where it might be dusty 14 Q What sort of closed areas would those be 15 A. This would be pieces of equipment that were -- it was 16 along side of walls or places where it wasn't readily ventilated 17 naturally 18 Q Would that be most indoor -- 19 I'm talking about indoors yes Q Most indoor uses then for applications of Kaylo at the 21 Berlin New Jersey plant for example would involve a situation where the person applying it would be provided with a ? respirator A Yes MR METCALF I think I'm almost done here Mr. Shuman 25 Can we go off the tape iGEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 ~ 79 Discussion held off the record BY MR METCALF Q Mr. Shuman was the address of Illinois Glass Company in mid to late 40's Toledo one Ohio A Yes Q What did the one refer to A It's the postal designation Q A 10 11 Innes Sort of like a zip code That's right that was the forerunner of the zip code I think you've already told us about a Mr. David A Yes 13 Q Who was he again 14 A He was plant manager at the Sayreville plant In fact 15 he was plant manager at the Berlin plant before I took over And 16 then when they built the Sayreville plant he became plant manager 17 of the Sayreville plant 18 Q Did you know a Mr. H. H. Renn 19 A No that's doesn't ring a bell Q A Mr. M. M. Olander 21 A Olander was the director of personnel I think is what his title was for Illinois Q Mr. A. C. Hirth A That doesn't ring a bell 25 Q In early to mid 40's did you ever know the name of LH GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 - 80 Mr. Mr. Bowes secretary A Miss Grice Q Do you remember her first name A She was a secretary now I'm presuming it was Mr. Bowes but at least the called general manager of the Kaylo division I can't right at the minute think of her first name Josephine it might have been Q Mr. Shuman during the time you were working for Owens- Illinois and Corning did you ever have occasion to discuss 10 asbestos containing insulation products with anybody employed by 11 Manville Corporation A Well only in AST committee C16 where all materials 13 were being discussed 14 Q Do you remember the names of anybody 15 A. Well the representative of Manville at that time 16 was Charles Bradley 17 Q Were you ever consulted in or about 1950 or 1951 Mr. 18 Shuman with regard to putting together a brochure about the 19 health aspects of Kaylo insulation A No I never heard of that 21 Q Was there a santocel product made by Illinois A No I don't think made by Illinois That is a trade name that I heard but I don't think this was -- my guess would be and purely a guess would be Manville 25 I believe you testified that Mr. Shook occasionally ~G~EIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 81 took samples of atmospheric dust in the Berlin New Jersey plant | A I think that was Mr. Hazard O Mr. Hazard I'm sorry A Mr. Hazard did yes Q Do you know whether or not Mr. Hazard would analyze those samples of dust for their contents A I presume he did because he would then report back to me whether the value was too high and we needed a better pick equipment 10 Q Do you know whether or not Saranac Laboratories read 11 rays for Illinois employees A That was my understanding that we would send our employees down to the other OI plant about 15 miles away I can't remember the name of the little town where the rays were taken 15 and then they would be sent to Saranac Lake to be read 16 Did you have annual chest rays while you were 17 employed by Illinois 18 A 19 plant Yes That is you're implying while I was at the Berlin Q Yes y 21 A Yes Q Did you have annual chest rays while you were officed at Toledo A 25 checkup No those were then -- it would be done on my own annual - GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 82 Q Do you remember a survey dust survey being conducted at the Berlin New Jersey plant in about the middle of 1958 A No I don't remember any Q Do you remember whether you sent dust from the Berlin New Jersey plant to Saranac on more than one occasion A That was just once the initial shipment was a mistake we had sent block and then Dr. Vordwald or his secretary pointed out they wanted dust and then we actually sent the dust But that was the only shipment that we made 10 Q Do you remember the name of the secretary that pointed 11 that out to you A I don't remember now 13 Q Do you remember if her name was Lillian Bland 14 A That name Bland sounds familiar yes 15 MR METCALF I have no further questions at this time 16 I want to make a statement I earlier stated I had no 17 objection to the deposition being taken to preserve testimony 18 am going to withdraw that and just let the record stand on its 19 own as to whether or not there's adequate foundation for this being a deposition to preserve testimony 21 MR HIGGINS Let me address that first with a couple more questions to Mr. Shuman BY MR HIGGINS REDIRECT EXAMINATION EXAMINATION 25 ' Mr. Shuman would you again describe what the present GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 ~ 83 state of your health is A Well for my age reasonably good Of course occasionally occasionally I get as people do in my age arthritis in my knees which makes walking rather difficult but it comes and goes But other than that why I would say for my age fairly good health Q How old are you at the present time A I'm 77. If I vote in November I will be 78 plus one day Q Mr. Shuman would you again tell us what your job 10 title and responsibilities were at Corning from the period 11 of 1958 to 1961 A As I said I can't remember the official title the 13 word manager of engineering services sounds like it might be it 14 But basically I was consultant to the sales department and as it 15 come out in the testimony it was to help sales people in answering 16 technical questions that might arise in the field that they 17 themselves couldn't answer 18 ' What was the function of the sales department 19 A Of course the sales department was to get orders for the material And this of course they would do by contacting 21 contractors and those organizations of large engineering organi- zations that were buying thermal insulation The first thing of course would be to get into their specifications so that it was an acceptable product on the list of the thermal insulation that 25 the customer was buying GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 84 Q Did the sales department have anything to do with research and development particularly with regard to Kaylo A No. The sales department would only report what they got from the field comments about what was liked or disliked But so far as the conduct of the research or development they had nothing to do with that Q In your capacity as a consultant for the sales depart- ment of Corning did you have anything to do with research and development generally and specifically with regard to Kaylo 10 A No I mean after the change was made then their own 11 research people did all of that Q So you were out of research and development 13 A I was out of research and development 14 Q Completely 15 Yes 16 Q Mr. Shuman you testified about the Sayreville plant on 17 a couple of occasions during your testimony here today Was there there 18 a point in time when the Sayreville plant ceased production of 19 Kaylo A Yes As I pointed out this was heavy density material 21 which was primarily roof tile And while it accomplished quite a bit in the way of providing thermal insulation as well as support in those days thermal insulation wasn't given the weight that it is today and so it was considered to be too high priced So 25 the outlook was unfavorable saleswise and so I think it was L GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 85 somewhere around 1953 they decided to get out of the business | That's when Sayreville was shut down Q Was the Sayreville plant in existence at the time Corning purchased the Berlin plant in 1958 A No the equipment had been sold and somebody else had it 2 You testified earlier about some of the features of hydrous calcium silicate insulation products in general and specifically about Kaylo You discussed its handability in the | 10 field I think was something you talked about 11 A Yes Q The fact that it produced relatively low amount of 13 dust compared to other kinds of thermal insulations 14 A Yes 15 MR METCALF Object to the form 16 BY MR HIGGINS 17 Q That solubility was a factor to take into consideration 18 and the solubility of hydrous calcium silicate was better than something like 85 percent mag MR METCALF Object to the form A Yes 22 BY MR HIGGINS 23 Q That it could be used in higher temperatures -- that 24 an asbestos containing thermal insulation could be used in 25 higher temperatures than other types of insulations is that GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 86 correct MR METCALF Object to the form A Well if I understand you're saying the calcium silicate silicate materials would perform at higher temperatures than the 85 percent percent mag that's right BY MR HIGGINS Q You also testified that one of the components of hydrous calcium silicate thermal insulation specifically Kaylo was asbestos is that correct 10 A At that time yes 11 MR METCALF Object to the form BY MR HIGGINS 13 Q During the period of time that you worked for Owens- 14 Illinois in your view was there any substitute for asbestos that 15 had better performance characteristics than asbestos itself 16 MR METCALF Object to the form 17 A We didn't know of any 18 BY MR HIGGINS 19 Q You testified that the asbestos fiber that was incorpo- rated into the Kaylo product would not change its characteristics 21 after the autoclaving process is that correct A Yes MR METCALF Object to the form BY MR HIGGINS 25 Q Is that a fair characterization of what your testimony is ee GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 87 A In other words the asbestos in the finished product was essentially the same as what had been put in originally Q If you know was there any chemical alteration of the asbestos fibers as a result of the autoclaving process A There was no known reaction between asbestos and the other ingredients MR HIGGINS I have no further questions Whereupon the deposition was concluded 10 11 13 14 Everett C. Shuman 15 16 17 18 19 INDEX TO WITNESS Direct 2 Cross 33 Redirect 82 21 22 23 24 25 ~~GEIGER & LORIA REPORTING SERVICE 118 MARKET STREET HARRISBURG PA 17101 PHONE 717 234-2109 _