Document 8N5kMOdk4pMYRopvRGGZ8D3B
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT QT WEST VIRGINIA
CHARLESTON WEST VIRGINIA
JA2CS m: ADKINS9 A d m in is tra to r )
o f tb s s t a t s ofRalph E. Adkins )
Doc sad a t a l 9
)
) P laintiffs )
) vs. )
) MONSANTO COMPANY, a D alasnxa )
C o rp o ratio n
)
D afendant.
) )
Ho.81
Dap o s i t i o n o f
EARL H. BARBIS ON JR. Cakan an b a h a lf o f tfaa
P lain tiffs,
E s p o r ta r : M. Jo y S p r i n t a r
J am es M ay R epo rtin g S ervice
CERTIFIED SHO R TH AN D REPORTERS
R R 2 - BOX 65 EO W AR DS V ILLE . IL L IN O IS 62025
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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF WEST VIRGINIA
CHARLESTON, WEST VIRGINIA
JAMES M. ADKINS, A d m in is tra to r o f )
the E sta te of Ralph E. A dkins, )
Deceased, e t a l,
).
) P lain tiffs, )
vs.
MONSANTO COMPANY, a D elaw are C orporation,
D efendant.
) No 81-2098 ) ) )
) )
APPEARANCES:
M essrs. C a lw e ll, McCormick & Payton, by W. S t u a r t C a lw e ll, J r . , E sq,
M essrs. Bowles, McDavld, G ra ff & Love, by P. M ichael P leska, Esq. and John Woods, E sq.
Thomas M B i s t l i n e , E sq .
For P la in tiffs ,
For D efendant, M onsanto Company C o u n sel,
IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED by and betw een counsel fo r the p la in tiffs and counsel for the defendant t h a t th e d e p o s itio n o f EARL H, HARBISON, J R ., may be taken pursuant to Rule 26(a) of th e F ed eral Rules o f C iv il P ro ced u re, on J u ly 13, 1983, e t th e Radis son H o te l, Room 2 15, 9 th S t r e e t and C o n v en tio n P la z a , S t. L o u is ,
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
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M is s o u ri, b e fo re M. JOY SPRINGER, a N o ta ry P u b lic w ith in
and fo r th e County of M adison, S ta te o f I l l i n o i s ; th a t
th e issu an ce o f n o tic e and dedimus i s w aived, and th a t
t h i s d e p o s itio n may be ta k e n w ith th e same f o rc e and
e ffe c t as i f a l l F ederal ru les and sta tu to ry requirem ents
had been com plied w ith.
IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED t h a t any
and a l l objections to a l l or any p art of th is deposition,
e x c e p t o b je c tio n s a s to form o f th e q u e s tio n s a s k e d .ODp^'-iv^
an sw ers g iv e n , a r e h ereb y r e s e r v e d and may be r a i s e d **
on th e t r i a l o f th is cause; and th a t the sig n a tu re o f
the deponent is n o t waived.
` r,i' ' v - v:
EARL H. HARBISCN. JR. produced, sworn and examined on b e h a lf o f th p l a i n t i f f s , deposes and says as follow s:
EXAMINATION BY MR. CALWELL:
(Whereupon th e r e p o r te r marked P la in t i f f s 1 D ep o sitio n E x h ib it #330 (Monsanto #8323075 through #8323079) c o n s is tin g of 5
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pages; E x h ib it #331 (Monsanto #8322873) con-
a l s tin g o f 1 page; E x h ib it #332 (Monsanto
#8322986) c o n s is tin g o 1 page; E x h ib it
#333 (Monsanto #8323053 and #8323054) con-
s l8 tin g o f 2 pages; E x h ib it #334 (Monsanto
#8322987 through #8322989) c o n sistin g of 3
pages; E x h ib it #335 (Monsanto #8322905)
c o n s is tin g o f 1 page; E x h ib it #336 (Monsanto
#8322919) c o n sistin g of 1 page, fo r
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purposes of id e n tific a tio n )
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Q (By Mr. C a lw e ll) Would you s t a t e . your name, p le a se ,
A Yes. E a rl H arrison H arbison, J r .
Q And w hat i s your a d d r e s s a Mr. H arbison?
A 74 F a ir O aks, S t . L o u is , M is s o u ri.
Q Y ou'oe employed by Monsanto?
A T h at's c o rre c t.
Q And w hat i s your p r e s e n t p o s it io n
w ith the eospany?
A E xecutive Vice P re sid e n t,
Q I 'd lik e to ask you a couple of a re a s
o f q u e s tio n s . F i r s t , i f you w ould, p le a s e , t e l l me w hat
your e d u ^ io n is and then w e 'll ta lk about your ca re er
w ith Monsanto f o r a few m inutes.
A E ducation is an A.B. Degree in P o litic a l
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1 S c ie n c e from W ashington U n iv e r s ity an d an l .L . B. from
2 George W shington U n iv e r s ity an d some b u s in e s s t r a i n i n g 3 beyond th a t a t Harvard.
4 Q J u s t some c o u rse work a t H arvard? 5 A Yeah. I t was a Management Development
6 Program.
7 Q When d id you g ra d u a te from law sc h o o l? 8 A I 'd have to go back and th in k about th a t. 9 Q I t h a s n 't been th a t long, has it? ::
t *.'J* y
10 A I t ' s been a w h ile , u n f o r t u n a t e l y . V;/: 11 Gosh, i t was m id -'S O 's . S ay, *56. I t m ight be o f f a y e a r. 12 Q A side from th e management c o u rs e s t t - . p 13 H arv ard , do you have an y o th e r p o s t- g r a d u a te s tu d i e s b e 14 yond law sc h o o l? 15 A No. 16 Q No o th e r D eg ree s, r i g h t ? 17 A No, 18 Q Now, when d id you s t a r t to work f o r 19 M onsanto? 20 A 1967. 21 Q Between th e tim e t h a t you g ra d u a te d 22 from law s c h o o l in th e m id -'5 0 ' s and th e tim e t h a t you 23 w en t to work f o r M onsanto w hat d id you do? 24 A I was w ith th e CIA in W ashington. 25 Q Any t r a i n i n g you r e c e iv e d th e r e a s s i s t
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you In your work a t Monsanto?
A W ell, n o t r e a l l y . I t was g e n e ra l
management. A ll W ashington based.
Q So i t was an a d m in is tra tiv e p o s itio n ?
A Yeah.
Q No a t t o r n e y a s s ig n m e n ts , huh?
A No.
Q You w ent d i r e c t l y from th e CIA to
Monsanto th e re ? A
Yeah.
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Q And t h a t was in 1967. What waft': y o u r
' f i r s t p o s itio n w ith Monsanto? A D ire c to r o f Management In fo rm atio n and
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Systems w ith th e c o rp o ra tio n .
Q That was a c o rp o ra te s t a f f p o s itio n ?
A T hat was a c o rp o ra te s t a f f .
Q What does th a t t i t l e mean, what d id
you do?
A W ell, I ran the corporatew ide computers
and co m u n i c a t ions system s f o r the company a c ro s s a l l
of the U nited S tate s and Europe.
Q When you sa y com m unications sy ste m s,
does t h a t mean in traco m p an y com m unications? Does i t
have anything to do w ith p u b lic re la tio n s or anything
like that?
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A No, no. J u s t th a p h y s ic a l consnunica'1? tio n s : telep h o n e, te le x , c omputer- to-com puter.
-Q
And t h a t was companywide?
A Yes.
Q How do you do th a t? W hat's i t t h a t
you did? Did you f a c i l i t a t e th is by te le p h o n e s, o r what?
A W ell, i t was th a o v e rse e in g o f th e
purchase o f the computers fo r the c o rp o ra tio n , a d m in istra -
tio n of th e s t a f f o f, I guess, 800 people acro ss th a.--
United S tates and Europe, s e ttin g the p o lic ie s , d e c id in g ^ .;
on th e eq u ip m en t, h i r i n g p e o p le . The t y p i c a l th in g one
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would do in running a b u sin e ss. I t was th e com puter
b u sin ess system s fo r Monsanto but m eeting i t s in te r n a l
n e e d . We d i d n 't s e l l a n y th in g to th a p u b lic .
Q Now, would t h a t in c lu d e th e com puters
used fo r lib ra ry and research purposes and th a t kind of
thing?
A By and l a r g e , a lth o u g h , some o f th e
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r e s e a r c h a lim e n ts had t h e i r own com puter sy ste m , p la n ts
had soma o f t h e i r own com puter sy ste m s; and over th e
y e a rs we a tte m p te d to i n t e g r a t e th o s e . What does t h a t
mean. Get them to be a b le to t a l k to each o th e r. But
t h a t was a n e v o lu tio n a r y p r o c e s s . You d o n 't do t h a t
In one a f te r n o o n , I suppose jou know.
Q I suppose t h a t had some r e l a t i o n to
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the development of the science?
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Oh, te c h n o lo g y , s u re ,
Q So would i t be f a i r to sa y , th e n ,
th a t p a rt of your communications e f f o r ts beginning in
'67 were to tr y to p u ll to g e th er and to develop th is
idea of computers ta lk in g to each o th er through the
company?
A Uh huh ( y e s ) .
Q Now, does M onsanto h a v e , l i k e , : * ;
computer c e n te r or a computer th a tfs the m aster b ra in
fo r the e n tire deal?
A W ell, not r e a lly . There are th re e
com puter cen ters and they are fundam entally business
computer ce n ters handling the f in a n c ia l and order tr a f f i c
of the company. A fte r th a t th e re a re a h o st o f sp e c ia liz e d
computer c e n te rs , sm all in n a tu re , th a t would d e a l w ith
sp e c ific su b jects to those ce n ters.
Q When you w ere w ith th e CIA, was t h i s
the kind o f th in g you were doing?
A No, n o t r e a lly .
Q So you have th re e b u sin e ss c e n te rs
fo r computers?
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A Uh huh ( y e s ) ,
Q That are concerned w ith the fin a n c ia l
and b u sin e ss end of th e company?
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A Uh huh (y es) .
Q Then you have some s p e c ia liz e d c e n te r s ?
A Uh huh ( y e s ) .
Q What would th e y be?
A . W ell, th an k God, i t ' s been so long
sin c e I have been in i t , b u t you would have a re s e a rc h
one la v e would p ro b a b ly have com puter s u p p o rt o f some ty p e
and i t might w ell have a computer lib r a r y w ith in th a t
c e n te r.
; .v.
Q Do you know i f M onsanto has su c h a
th in g now a t th e p r e s e n t tim e?
A W ell, I re a lly don' t.
Q The tim e fram e y o u 're ta lk in g a b o u t
is --
A W ell, se e, I got out of th a t in 1973,
so I 'v e g o t a te n -y e a r void in terms of w ho's done what
w ith those.
Q So 1967 to 1973?
A Uh huh ( y e s ) .
Q At le a s t, during th a t period of time
was th e r e some s p e c i f i c r e s e a r c h c e n te r com puter o p e r a tio n
th a t you r e c a ll?
A I d o n 't re c a ll a research cen ter one.
Our C e n tra l E n g in e e rin g D epartm ent, f o r exam ple, had a
com puter f a c i l i t y . I t was th e e a r l y v e s tig e s o f p u ttin g
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the d e s ig n o f b u ild in g s and p la n ts on com puters.
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Q Did the M edical Departm ent have one?
A Gee, I don' t th in k in those days.
Q Did i t ev er d u rin g th e p erio d of
tim e t h a t you were w orking in t h a t f i e l d , *67 to *73?
A X guess I 'd have to t e l l you I d o n 't
remember because I have no r e c o lle c tio n of i t i f they d id .
Q D uring th e p e rio d '6 7 to *73 was th e r e
some d iv is io n o f Monsanto concerned w ith enviromamtaX..-'
s itu a tio n s or problems?
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A I d o n 't remember one.
Q Do you remember any o th e r s p e c i a l i s e d computer fu n c tio n se p arate and a p a rt from the th ree
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business ce n ter o p eratio n s oth er than the E ngineering
D epartm ent?
A W ell, p la n ts had computers th a t had
not y e t bean wire! in to the system .
Q Do you knew w hat t h e i r f u n c tio n i s , th e
v ario u s p la n t computers?
A Fundam entally, business computers in the p la n ts or an en g in eerin g departm ent in a p la n t might
have a sm a ll com puter. In th o se days we d i d n 't have th e
m icroprocessors of today, so they were fid d lin g around
w ith co m p u ters; b u t I d o n 't know s p e c i f i c a l l y w hat th e y
d id w ith them e a rly on.
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Q 0.K , Do you r e c a l l I f th e N itr o
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f a c i l i t y had auch a computer durin g the period of tim e
you were
A I r e a l l y d o n 1t .
Q And w ere you s u c c e s s f u l In g e t t i n g
th ese p la n t computers and these various o th er computers
w ire d I n to some c e n t r a l system ?
A By th e tim e 1 l e f t th e system I 'd
sa y th e v e s tig e s o f th a t were coming aro u n d , but prln*. -
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c ip a lly In the larg e p la n ts , Texas C ity , Pensacola, ` . T '
places lik e th a t.
q And would th e s e p la n ts be w ire d Into...
the business centers?
A Uh huh ( y e s ) .
q One o f th e th r e e b u s in e s s c e n te r s ?
A Uh huh ( y e s ) .
q And do th e th r e e b u s in e s s c e n te r s
p e r s i s t to d a y , o r do you knew?
A As f a r a s I know, th e y a r e s t i l l t h e r e ,
and one serv es as a backup fo r th e o th e r.
q To your knowledge 9 does e v e r y th in g t h a t
has som ething to do w ith com puters, a re they w ired in to
t h i s one c e n t r a l sy stem now?
A 1 re a lly c o u ld n 't answer i t , I d o n 't
know how th e y have s p l i t t h e i r w ork o v er th e p a s t te n y e a r s .
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Q Your work betw een *67 and '7 3 , was th a t a l l in S t. Louis?
A Yes.
Q And t h a t was th e same p o s it io n --
A That was.
Q - - f o r t h a t tim e p e rio d . What d id you do n ex t w ith th e company?
A I went to work fo r the -- W ell, r e a lly ,
I went to work fo r th e Chairman then as D ire c to r
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O rg a n iz a tio n and Management D evelopm ent, and t h a t'ttie iw ^ ? ! ^ 5*
n i c a l l y re p o rte d to , God, I g u e ss, i t was E x ecu tiv e Vice
P resid en t, I*ve fo rg o tten . Q You sa y you w ere w orking f o r th e
.. .
P re sid e n t?
A Fundamen t a l l y .
Q O.K. And w hat was your m is sio n in t h a t
jo b ? What w ere you supposed to be doing?
A we w ere lo o k in g a t th e o r g a n iz a tio n
o f the company, seeing w hether i t met the ends, the
programs th a t the P re sid en t wanted to put in p la ce,
a s s e s s in g the so -c a lle d management s ty le of th e company,
w h eth e r we had a common s t y l e o f management a c ro s s th e
c o r p o r a tio n , and d e s ig n in g new pay and in c e n tiv e s sy stem s.
Q In ca rry in g o u t, I guess, the program
of the P resident is p a rt of your jo b , Is th a t rig h t?
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A Y e s. He was new t o t h e company a n d
we w ere t r y i n g t o g e t i t in sy n c w i t h h i s v iew s o f t h e
fu tu re .
Q Implementing his p o lic ie s to see i f
i t would work, rig h t?
A Uh huh ( y e s ) .
Q Now, in c o n n e c t i o n w i t h t h a t , d i d you
have occasion to work w ith any employee h e a lth p o lic ie s
or programs?
A No.
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Q Was t h e r e someone who was y o u r p e e r
who d id d u r in g t h a t p e rio d o f tim e? I 'm t a l k i n g a b o u t *73.
A W ell, I d o n 't ever re c a ll i t being a
m a t t e r o f a t t e n t i o n d u r i n g t h a t p e r i o d b e c a u s e we w ere
d e a lin g w ith broad management s ty le w ith in the company.
We w e r e n ' t d e a l i n g w i t h s p e c i f i c s e g m e n ts o f i t o r
sp ecific issues w ithin i t .
Q J u s t w a sn 't th a t im portant a t th a t time?
A W ell, i t ju s t w asn't a facto r in what
I was d o in g .
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Q And you d o n ' t know i f i t was a f a c t o r
in what somebody e ls e was doing?
A No.
q Who was t h e P r e s i d e n t a t t h a t tim e ?
A J o h n W. H a n le y .
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Q W ell, you must have done som ething r i g h t f o r Mr. Hanley?
A 1 guess so.
Q Were you in charge of an y p a r t i c u l a r a s p e c t o f th e o p e ra tio n s o f th e company from co rp o ra te s ta f f le v e l in th is job?
A Not re a lly .
Q Or were you j u s t a n in p le m e n te r?
A W e ll, i t was a d e sig n and c o o r d ii tic w :'TV
r o le in h e lp in g him implement the p o lic ie s th a t ha
b u t I was n o t in ch arg e o f a n y th in g per s e .
v " .
Q In terms of a lin e and s t a f f fu^filcn*^-' A I t was s t a f f .
Q Any en v iro n m en tal concerns a t th a t
p a r tic u la r time?
A Not by me.
Q Do you know i f th e r e was anybody who
was your p ear th a t was try in g to implement th a t kind o f
th in g a t th a t time?
A I don' t knew.
Q D uring th a t p erio d of time were you
made aw are o f any c h lo ra c n e problem a t the N itr o , West
V irg in ia, m anufacturing fa c ility ?
A I d o n 't th in k a t th a t time o th e r than
h e a rin g th e word " N itro " t h a t I even knew w hat th e y d id .
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Q And you h e a rd th e word " N itro " because I t was a f a c i l i t y ?
A I t was a p la n t. Q This business o f K ltro about chloracne o r th a t kind of th in g never f i l t e r e d up to you d u rin g th a t p erio d of time?
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A No. Q L et me beck up j u s t f o r a m in u te. D uring th e p e rio d 1967 to *73 th e V ietnam c o n f l i c t wag s t i l l going on and Monsanto was a governm ent c o n t r a c to r , I suppose, to provide c e rta in herbicides for th a t e f f o r t. Were you aware o f t h a t a t t h a t tim e? A I was n o t. Q So you d i d n 't know betw een '6 7 and '73 t h a t your company was s e l l i n g 2 ,4 ,5 -T and 2,4-D In a th in g c a lle d Agent Orange to th e government? A No. Q Did you e v e r become aware t h a t your company had? A Ever? Q Yeah. A W eil, l a t e l y . ............................. Q And was i t J u s t l a t e l y t h a t you le a r n e d th a t? A Yes.
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Q Do you r e c a l l th e f i r s t tim e t h a t you
determined- th a t?
.. A sp ecificity .
No, I cannot t e l l you w ith any
Q So your c o n ta c ts w ith Washington and
th e CIA an d a l l were n o t u t i l i z e d a t a l l in th e A gent
Orange b u sin e ss, or w hatever?
A No.
Q
In f a c t , you j u s t d i d n 't even toow.
.r 4,
anything rbout i t , is th a t rig h t?
* ^*.'*?'*;* r
A T h at's c o rre c t.
Q And you g o t t h i s new jo b in 1973 a s a d v i s e r to Mr. H anley, and how lo n g d id t h a t jo b l a s t ?
;.
A I th in k i t was u n t i l Septem ber, give
and tak e, of '7 5 .
Q And d u rin g t h a t p e rio d o f tim e you
had no knowledge ab o u t th is 2 ,4 ,5 -T and ch lo racn e iss u e
a t th e N ltro P lan t or even Agent Orange, fo r th a t n a tte r ,
rig h t?
A No.
Q In th is jo b , '73 to '7 5 , did you have
any re s p o n s ib ility a t a l l to look a t or review budgets
or income or balance sh e e ts o r an y th in g e ls e f o r th e
c o rp o ra tio n ?
A No.
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
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1 A No.
2 Q How d id you know w hether th e p o l i c i e s
3 were paying o ff or being implemented?
4 A Which p o lic ie s ?
5 Q W ell, as I u n d e rsta n d your jo b , hfr. H anley h as some program t h a t he w anted to im plem ent,
\
7 w hatever th a t might have been, to r e f le c t h is lead ersh ip
8 and so fo rth in the company; and as I understand i t ,
9 p a r t o f your jo b was to see to i t t h a t t h a t concept**'"*
; y;V-* y ,
10 th o se co n c e p ts were c a r r i e d o u t an d a l s o , X assume* you.L'
11
h e lp e d d e s ig n some o f them in t h a t f u n c tio n .
;
12 A Uh huh ( y e s ) , 13 Q So how d id you know w h eth er the com 14 pany was in a c t u a l i t y c a r r y in g o u t t h i s id e a t h a t Mr.
15 H anley had?
l A W e ll, we s p e n t some s e v e r a l y e a rs
17 tr y i n g to p u t a s e r i e s o f management and p e rs o n n e l p o l i
18 c i e s in to , e f f e c t . You d o n 't g e t th e im p act o f th o se f o r 19 maybe h a l f a d ecad e. I ' d sa y to d a y y o u 'r e lo o k in g a t
20
some o f th e p ay o u ts from th o se sy ste m s. But in th e
21 p e r io d o f tim e X was th e r e y o u 'd be p u tti n g them in and
22
th e re would be no way to t e l l i f th ey were s u c c e s s fu l, 23
in f a c t, they w e re n 't even implemented. 24
Q So betw een *73 an d *75 was a tim e o f 25
try in g to get these things in place?
JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE
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A R ight.
Q You w ere n o t lo o k in g f o r an d d id n o t
receive any:feedback as to th e ir success or fa ilu re a t
th a t time?
A No.
Q You s a i d th e r e w ere some p e rs o n n e l
p o lic ie s th a t you were d esig n in g o r f a t l e a s t v respond
s i b le fo r im plem enting. Did those personnel p o lic ie s
a f f e c t the o p eratin g u n its , fo r example, lik e , N itro? :*rV * `
A They were b a s ic a lly com pensation p o lic ie s .
Q What does t h a t mean?
A
Pay how a r e we go in g to pay p e o p le ,
-
by what system s, what p a rts w ill be b a sic com pensation,
what w ill be in cen tiv e, th a t s o rt of thing.
Q Was t h a t f o r h o u rly p eo p le?
A No.
Q These were fo r company p eo p le, r ig h t?
A . *
- Q
Yes. Management in the company. And how f a r down d id your p o l i c i e s go
r e la tin g to these com pensation p o lic ie s?
A T hey'd go th ro u g h th e p r o fe s s io n a l
ranks of th e company.
Q Would th e y re a c h th e s u p e rv is o r'
lev el in the plant?
A W ell, th e y 'd go through the s a la rie d
1 J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
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2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
work fo rc e , b u t the im pact of the p o lic ie s , obviously,
i s g r e a t e r in th e managemea t a r e a s a t th e to p o f th e
company th an i t is f u r th e r down.
Q Was t h a t th e e x t e n t o f your p e rs o n n e l
p o lic ie s t h a t you were p a r t i c u l a r l y re s p o n s ib le fo r?
A I guess in terms of d ir e c t personnel
p o lic ie s -- I couldn* t t e l l you th e re was n o th in g e l s e ,
b u t t h a t 18 th e t h r u s t o f i t .
Q So p r im a r ily how much you1r e g o in g ^ r . ^ to pay people, rig h t?
A people, yeah.
And th e system s by w hich you m o tiv a te
Q You a l s o w ere r e s p o n s ib le f o r d e c id in g
how b ig o r w hat k in d o f c a r r o t sh o u ld be on th e end o f
th e s tic k to get these people to work, is th a t rig h t?
A Uh huh ( y e s ) .
Q Now, w ere th e r e some a r e a s t h a t you
can t e l l me a b o u t l i k e t h a t t h a t you im plem ented?
A I guess I don' t understand the question.
I t was an a c ro s s -th e -b o a rd com pensation system , so i t
was n o t s p e c i f i c a l l y r e l a t e d to an a r e a so much a s a
g e n e ra l com pensation system fo r th e management of the
co rp o ratio n as a whole.
Q And d id t h a t c a r r y w ith i t , a s you
s a i d , some id e a o f how to m o tiw te p eo p le?
/ J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
If
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*
!
A To th e e x t e n t you b e lie v e d t h a t m o tiv a -
tlo n Is In' p a rt achieved by compenst ion, yeah.
Q So th e m o tiv a tio n was p u re ly co n n ected
to how much money th e s e peo p le w ere making o r how many
frin g e b e n e fits they were g e ttin g , is th a t what you*re
saying? \
A
T hat was th e t h r u s t of th is p a r t i c u l a r
s e t o f program s we w ere w orking on, y e s.
Q And w ere th e r e a s e t o f programs in.;*** 1*
t h i s same v e in g e a re d to p r o d u c tio n , in c r e a s e d p r o d u c tio n ,
increased pay, th a t kind of thing?
A Compensation tie d to p ro d u c tiv ity ?
*
Q Of pen:ormance .
A Of p a rfo rn ^ n c e , y e a .
Q And i s th e r e some r e l a t i o n in M o n san to 's
scheme o f th in g s between perform ance and p ro d u c tiv ity ?
A W ell, th e re 's c e rta in ly a re la tio n sh ip
betw een -- We hope t h e r e 's a r e l a t i o n s h i p betw een p e r-
*
f ormance end co m p en sa tio n . Now, p r o d u c tiv i ty you r e a l l y
have to define to say does performance include p ro d u ctiv ity ,
doe8 it?
Q Does i t In M onsanto's scheme o f th in g s?
A Sure. But then you have to d efin e
p ro d u c tiv ity .
Q Amount p u t o u t by a p la n t, would th a t
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
1
19
$ ,,
i be p ro d u ctiv ity ?
2 A Yes, the amount o f product put out
3 per hour, par c a p ita l d o lla r, yes, sure.
4 Q In o th e r w o rd s, in term s o f some
5 u n it of measure?
6 A Uh huh ( y e a ) .
7 Q E ith e r time or c a p ita l d o lla r expend!-
8 tu re , th a t kind of thing?
9 A Uh huh ( y e s ) .
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Q
And a l l
th a t
would
have
some
* *. c'"j/*--'''relatio n .. -
-
11 t o your r e t u r n on in v e s tm e n t, th e n , i s t h a t r i g h t ? .
12 A S u re .
,
13 Q Which is k in d o f th e u ltim a te m easu rin g
14 s t i c k , I su p p o se , how much you g e t?
15 A A m easu rin g s t i c k . 16 q Now, in d e s ig n in g th e s e p o l i c i e s w ith 17 a l l t h a t in mind - - and I assum e, you had to c o n s id e r
18 a l l t h a t In o rd e r to s e t a com pensation s c a le t h a t w ould 19 a d e q u a te ly com pensate p eo p le engaged in t h i s p h ilo so p h y 20 o f w ork p r o d u c tiv i ty - - d id you d e s ig n an y p o l i c i e s
21 r e l a t e d t o how th e company d e c id e d to keep a p ro d u c t o r 22 keep a p a r t i c u l a r a s p e c t o f i t s b u s in e s s on b o ard o r to 23 c u t i t a s b e in g n o t p r o f i t a b l e , th o se k in d s o f d e c is io n s ? 24 Did y o u r p o lic y to u c h on t h a t a t a l l ? 25 A No. The p o l i c i e s d e a l t , th e program s
/ J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
1 dea l t w ith s e ttin g up a system by which in d iv id u a l 2 managers could put in place longer term re s u lts and 3 s h o r te r term goals which would help them achieve success 4 in t h e i r o p e ra tio n s , and com pensation would be tie d in 5 some m easure to t h a t p e rfo rm a n c e . The d e f i n t i o n o f t h a t perform ance was in the hands o f the m anagers. There 7 was no a t t e m p t t o do t h a t fro m c o r p o r a t e . We s i m p l y 8 tr ie d to put the system down, s a id , i f you o perate 9 t h is system , y o u 'l l be more s u c c e s s f u l in term s ofr;. ^ 10 s p e c i n g t h e perform ance a n d w h a t e v e r you e x p e c t ; b u t ' . i t 11 was I m p o s s i b l e i n a com pany o f t h a t b r e a d t h t o a t t e m p t 12 t o do a n y t h i n g more t h a n p u t a b r o a d s c a l e s y s te m down* 13 How t h a t was a p p l i e d by a n i n d i v i d u a l m anager o r e x e c u 14 t i v e was a d i f f e r e n t m a t t e r . 15 Q T h e n , I s u p p o s e , t h a t became one l m e a s u r e m e n t, t h e n , o f th e a c c o u n t a b i l i t y o f t h e i n d i v i d 17 u a l m a n a g e r , how w e l l he im p le m e n te d i t , w h e t h e r i t p a i d 18 o f f a n d was s u c c e s s f u l s i n c e you l e f t t h e p r a c t i c a l i t y 19 o f p u t t i n g t h i s s y s te m i n t o e f f e c t up t o him? 20 A You mean w h e t h e r he im p le m e n te d t h e 21 p r o g r a m s ? 22 Q Y e s.W h e th e r i t was s u c c e s s f u l o r n o t . 23 A Y es. 24 Q When yous a y t h e s e i n d i v i d u a l m a n a g e r s , 25 a r e t h e s e t h e v a r i o u s o p e r a t i o n a l m a n a g e rs t h a t y o u ' r e
JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE
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3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
ta lk in g about?
7A
W ell, the whole system t i e r s i t s e l f
down to e x e c u tiv e v ic e p r e s id e n ts have v ic e p r e s id e n ts
r e p o r tin g to him who have g e n e ra l managers r e p o r tin g who
have o th e r p eo p le r e p o r tin g . The system ca sca d es i t s
way down in term s o f r e s u l t s and g o a ls w ith in the company.
Q A g en eral manager, fo r example, of
MIC would be one le v e l o f p erso n who would re c e iv e th is
policy?
. , . .....
-
A Oh, s u r e ,
*
Q And would be e x p e c te d , th e n , to o p e ra te
w ithin it?
A Yes.
Q Now, t h a t was tru e between *73 and *75,
in any event?
A T h a t's when i t s t a r t e d .
Q And do you knew i f t h a t p ro c e ss t h a t
you were in p a r t re s p o n s ib le fo r is s t i l l going on?
A Yes, i t is .
Q Does t h a t p o lic y have a name?
A W ell, I guess we would r e f e r to i t a s
th e Management By R e s u lts Program ,
Q In o th e r w ords, i f you had a fe llo w
and you s a id , lo o k , you d o n 't u n d erstan d w h a t's going on,
I w ant you to re a d th e Management By R e s u lts Program so
-/ J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
2
*
1 you g e t a b e tt e r id e a , you could p o in t him to a document
2 and he c o u ld go rea d I t and h e 'd know w hat you*re t a l k i n g
3 about, is th at right?
4 A I'm n o t sure there Is a document. 5 T here a r e p ro b a b ly some docum ents t h a t l a y t h a t o u t, y e s .
6
\ 7
Q Where would th ey be? A Be t h r o u g h o u t t h e c o r p o r a t i o n .
8 q I realize that. 9 A In the hands o f many managers
10 n o t some c e n t r a l r e p o s i t o r y f o r t h e d o c u m e n t.
11 q You c o u l d f i n d I t , t h o u g h , c o u l d n ' t you?
12 A Y eah .
* . W:
13 q How w ould you f i n d I t ?
14 A Go t o a f i l e .
15 q What f i l e w ou ld you go to ?
16 A I ' d have a f i l e p r o b a b l y i n my o f f i c e
17 on M anagement By R e s u l t s .
18 Q I f I a s k e d y o u , th e n I ' d a s k you f o r 19 y o u r f i l e on Management By R e s u l t s P ro g ra m , r i g h t ?
20 A Yeah.
21 Q And d o e s t h e M anagem ent By R e s u l t s 22 P ro g ra m i n c l u d e o t h e r p o l i c i e s a s i d e fro m j u s t t h e com
23 p e n s a t i o n p o l i c y ? I t s o u n d s t o me l i k e t h a t ' s a p r e t t y 24 c o m p r e h e n s iv e p r o g r a m , M anagem ent By R e s u l t s , o f w h ic h 25 c o m p e n s a t i o n w o u ld be one p a r t , I s t h a t t r u e ?
JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE
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A Yes. In management the com pensation program la th e means by w hich you, o b v io u sly , reward or compensate fo r the program. I t is not the program.
Q E xactly. A ll rig h t. Is there any o th e r program th a t you were w orking on and re s p o n sib le f o r im p le m e n ta tio n d u r i n g th e '7 3 t o f 75 p e rio d ?
A T h at's the b asic program. Q And d i d t h i s p ro g ra m have w i t h i n i t a n y th in g to do w ith employee h e a lth , the M edical D npart^;;-' m ent o r e n v i r o n m e n t a l c o n c e r n s o r t o x i c s u b s t a n c e s : aA&K~: those kinds of things? A I d o n 't remember any s p e c if ic s o f t h a t . n a tu re . Q Was t h e r e n o t a g e n e r a l a r e a , was there not a general area? A W ell, the program d id n 't have, i t d id n 't spec out re s p o n s ib ilitie s or a re as. I t d id n 't say , do th is in m arketing and th a t in employee h e a lth and th is In advance and so on. I t ra th e r put a concept o f how on would manage a company th ro u g h s u c c e s s i v e l a y e r s o f m anagers i n t o e f f e c t . But i t d i d n ' t -- You could take the program and presum ably d e al as e ff e c tiv e ly w ith employee h e a lth as you could in the fin an ce fu n c tio n . I t was n o t a program w ith s p e c i f i c t y o f fu n c tio n in i t . Q P a rt of the d esig n problem was to
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
*/
c re a te a model th a t would have a p p li c a b i lit y w herever you p ut i t , rig h t?
A Right.
Q You w ould e x p e c t , t h e n , a management
person in environm ental h e a lth or employee h e a lth or
the M edical Department to be ab le to take th is program
and u t il i z e i t in carry in g out the goals and ends of
Monsanto j u s t a s w e ll as t h a t p a r t i c u l a r model m ight be
used over th is production u n it somewhere?
- ?,'
A Yes, you would. A lthough, it^ ijab rO * * -\o ;
d i f f i c u l t i n some a r e a s . M a rk e tin g and s a l e s i s much
more e a s i l y a p p lie d to the program than the amorphous...
i
fie ld s of science and technology, but in general, yes,
you're r ig h t.
Q I gather what you're saying is the
Management by R esu lts Program is r e a lly an e f f o r t by
Mr. H a n le y 's regim e to im plem ent th e p h ilo s o p h y o f Mon-
sa n to as re fle c te d through his regime? I t 's s o rt of an
approach to the company, is th a t rig h t?
A Yes, I think th a t's f a ir enough.
I t ' s a program designed to g et a commonality of manage-
ment approach across the c o rp o ra tio n .
Q V?ould t h a t be t h e b e s t p l a c e to f i n d
M o n s a n to 's p h i lo s o p h y , r e a l l y , i n te rm s o f how th e company
s h o u ld be r u n and w h a t i t sh o u ld be d o in g a n d how i t s h o u ld
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
2:
1 be doing it?
2 A I th in k th a t and the accompanying, 3 w hat we c a l l , management s t y l e o f M onsanto, y e s , in d e e d .
4 Q Now, when you g o t in to t h i s r a t h e r
5 p h ilo s o p h ic a l p o s itio n in *73 and '7 5 , was th e re an e x i s t
6 ing program from p revious regim es t h a t you re p la c e d w ith
7 th e Management By R e s u lts Program , o r d id you k in d o f
8 r e f in e or add to what was a lr e a d y in p la c e ?
9 A y e l l , th e c o n c e p t of Manage ment B y
10 R e s u lts , M30, Management By O b je c tiv e s , ob v io u sly * .waai \
'V. .
-V|i*v i :V
11 not a new th o u g h t. I t was aro u n d f o r y e a rs . There' were
12 v e s tig e s o f t h a t program a d m in is te re d by d i f f e r e n t mana- .. -V"
' - -V
'/
13 g e rs in t h e i r own unique way. You can c a l l i t a r e p l a c e
14 m ent. We d i d n 't b u ild the l o t on the p a th , l e t me p u t
15 i t t h a t way.
16 Q When you g o t th e re in '7 3 in d is p o s i
17 t i o n , is w hat y o u 're sa y in g is th e re was no c e n tr a liz e d - -
18 A T h a t's c o r r e c t .
19 Q T h at i t was a d e c e n tr a liz e d k in d o f
20 th in g ?
21 A (Nods head a f f i r m a t i v e l y . )
22 Q And d id i t r e q u i r e you, th e n , to go to
23 v a rio u s a re a s o f th e company to fin d out what in f a c t was
24 g o in g on in t h i s a r e a t h a t we have been ta lk in g a b o u t,
25 enable you to p u ll i t a l l to g e th e r?
JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE
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A W ell, in a way, yes, but n o t in the d e ta ile d way you might imagine because sim ply through l i v i n g t h e r e you knew t h a t t h e r e w ere d i v e r s e a p p ro a c h e s t o i t ; so we d i d n ' t go a r o u n d a n d c a t a l o g 82 d i f f e r e n t ways t o g e t t o t h e e n d . We s a i d , o f c o u r s e i t ' s d i v e r s e a n d w e 'r e g o in g t o t r y and move t o g e t a more c o o r d i n a t e d a p p r o a c h t o i t . S o , y e a h , I g u e s s we t h o u g h t a b o u t i t , b u t , n o , we d i d n ' t o u t a n d c a t a l o g them .
Q And w ere t h e r e a n y w r i t t e n p ro g ra m s 'vA V.
*m
or p o lic ie s or se ts of docum ents, as you have r e f e r r e d t o h e r e a s y o u r f i l e on t h e M anagement By R e s u l t s P ro gram , in e x i s t e n c e t h a t you w ere a b le t o f i n d i n *73 when you w a n te d t o im p le m e n t y o u r own program ?
A I d o n 't re c a ll looking fo r any, th eref o r e , f in d in g an y . I t was j u s t n o t t e r r i b l y germ ane.
Q I f you knew, who w ould have b een in t h i s d e c e n t r a l i z e d scheme p r i o r t o *73? V.ere t h e r e k ey p e rs o n s who would have been r e s p o n s ib le f o r th e s e v a rio u s o r d iv e rs* programs of o p e ra tio n throughout the company? I 'm t r y i n g t o g e t some i d e a a s t o how i t w orked on t h i s decentralized basis.
A V e il, i t would have been the m ajor heads of the o p eratin g u n its o f Monsanto and d e c e n tra liz e d through th e ir v ario u s le v e ls of management. I f you took an o p e ra tio n c h a rt from 1971, you know, t h a t 's what i t
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
2
would be
jQ And was t h a t h i s t o r i c a l l y t r u e , l i k e ,
back in 1949 or '48?
A I re a lly couldn' t answer.
Q Kow f a r b a c k do you know i t was d e
c e n tr a liz e d in the fa sh io n you found i t in , say , 1973?
I c a n ' t go b ack much c o re th an a y e a r
o r s o o f t h a t p e r i o d . E ven *67. X o n l y know my own
e r a t h a t X w orked i n . I c a n ' t ta k e you b a ck much".' fu rth e r than th at era.
-
Q Did the company have o rg a n iz a tio n a l
c h a r t s d u r in g t h a t p e rio d o f tim e , i f you know?
A Yes.
Q Is th a t what they are called?
A Uh huh ( y e s ) .
Q I f you w anted to sum i t up, w hat t h i s
company was lik e in --
A Sure, there are organization ch arts,
*''<}
And w here w ould t h e y be i n you w a n te d
to go look a t one?
A I d o n 't knew t h a t th e y would be a n y
where today. I would guess the D irec to r of Personnel
f o r the c o rp o ra tio n would be the lo g ic a l p la c e , b u t I
d o n ' t know t h e r e a r e a n y in e x i s t e n c e to d a y .
Q Would the D ir e c to r of P e rso n n e l s o r t
JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE
@0
t -
1
, 2 3 4 5 6 7
8
9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 ' 24 25
'f
of be the re p o s ito ry o f th is kind of inform ation? I f
anybody had i t , i t would be the D ire c to r of p e rso n n e l - -
A You mean o f t h e o r g a n i z a t i o n c h a r t s ?
Q Yeah.
A I would th in k so.
Q O.K. In 1975 you went somewhere e ls e ?
A Yeah. I became G eneral Manager of
the S p e c ia lty Chemicals D iv isio n .
Q Was t h a t a l a t e r a l t r a n s f e r o r s t e p up7.
A No. Fundam entally l a t e r a l . was in th e I n d u s t r i a l Chemicals Company.
That ;
i
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'':'
Q And t h a t w ould h a v e b e e n i n l a t e V75
or e a r ly '76?
A My r e c o l l e c t i o n i s l a t e ' 7 5 .
Q I n d u s tr ia l Chemicals D ivision?
A I t was the S p e c ia lty Chemicals D iv isio n
of th e I n d u s t r i a l Chem icals Company.
Q And w hat d id you do f o r th e S p e c i a l t y
''Chemicals D iv isio n ?
~A
I was th e G eneral M anager. I ra n th e
b u s in e s s and was a cc o u n ta b le f o r i t s p r o f i t s , l o s s ,
b u s in e s s d i r e c t i o n , you name i t .
Q What d id the S p e c ia lt y C hem icals
D iv isio n do?
A W ell, i t m anufactured and sold a wide
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
2
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3 4 5
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9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 13 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
/
range of products: a n a lg e sic s, fu n ctio n a l flu id s . There " trt>
must have ;bean a hundred products of various s o r ts .
Swimming p o o l c h e m ic a ls .
Q Did i t have a n y th in g to do w ith a g r i -
c u ltu ra l chem icals?
A No.
Q No h e r b ic id e s or p e s tic i d e s ?
A No.
Q Was t h a t a S t. L ouis based or t h i s a r e a ?
P,
A Yes .
:t 's?\
Q th a t operation?
Any c h lo rin a te d phenols in v o lv ed in
L'
A Gee, I d o n 't th in k so, I e ith e r have
to t e l l you no or I d o n 't remember i t .
Q This was a c tu a lly in a m anufacturing
operating unit?
A I t was o p e ra tin g u n i t . M an u factu rin g ,
s a le s , uh huh (yes). . <5-** Q And how long were you th e re ?
t**
; A l?d say a y e a r .
Q O.K. So th e n w hat happened?
A Then I became G eneral Ifanager o f th e
P la stic iz e rs D ivision.
Q Now, does t h a t have a number o f manu-
fa c tu rin g f a c i l i t i e s under i t or j u s t one?
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
1
3(
9
1 A P la s tic iz e r s had -- W ell, i t had
2 several. >; '
3 Q Now, in t h a t d i v i s i o n do you know
4 i f they were d e a lin g w ith any c h lo rin a te d phenols?
5 A I d o n 't think so. Q O.K. So you g o t t h a t jo b , and t h a t 7 was S t. Louis based also ?
8 A T h at's c o rre c t. 9 How, t h a t ' s n o t a c o r p o r a te
10 jo b , i s i t ?
11
A No. I t ' s a lin e Job.
W:
12 Q O.K. So t h a t jo b began in la te * ^ ?
13 o r e a r l y '7 7 ?
14 A Uh huh ( y e s ) .
15 Q How lo n g d id t h a t l a s t ? l A W e ll, i t l a s t e d a b o u t a y e a r , b u t
17 c o n c u r r e n tly w ith t h a t , a b o u t h alfw ay th ro u g h t h a t , I
18 a l s o became Manager o f th e D e te rg e n ts and p h o sp h a tes
19
. ' .' Division^,
20
/ * <J
Is th a t lik e a dual job?
21 A I had b o th o f them and I had a s s i s t a n t 22 g e n e ra l m anagers un d er me who oversaw th e d a i l y o p e r a tio n s 23 o f i t . 24 Q So you g o t In v o lv ed w ith p h o sp h a tes? 25 A Uh huh ( y e s )
JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE
t@ 4
1 2
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8
9 10
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12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
';
Q
* V* v*
yA
Did th a t In clu d e the Krummrich P la n t? Uh huh ( y e a ) .
Q And do you know I f p u w ere d e a lin g
w ith any ch lo rin ated phenols In th a t d iv isio n ?
A Yes.
Q Did you have a departm ent th a t you
r e c a l l th a t you c a lle d D epartm ent 237 a t th e Krummrich
P la n t?
A I c o u ld n 't t e l l you.
`* - -J.
Q Did you have a C h lo rin ated phenols
Department a t the p lan t?
A We made c h lo r in a te d p h e n o ls. What
th e departm ent was X c a n 't t e l l you.
Q When d id you f i r s t le a r n a b o u t
c h lo r in a te d p h e n o ls, th a t th e re was such a n a n im a l?
You, o b v io u sly , d i d n 't g e t i t in law sc h o o l, r ig h t?
A D id n 't g e t th a t. The reaso n I'm
h e s i t a t i n g i s I r e a l l y d o n 't know i f I h eard i t th e n or
l a t e r on a * .Managing D ire c to r of th e I n d u s tr ia l Chem icals
Company. I j u s t a b s o lu te ly d o n 't have a s p e c if ic r e c o l-
le c tio n of i t . I c e rta in ly heard of i t , but & could have
been '7 9 o r *80 o r even '8 1 .
Q In a very b r ie f period i t looks lik e
the company was g e t tin g you v e ry w e ll seasoned in lin e
p o s itio n s h e r e . Can you t e l l me b a s i c a l l y a s a g e n e r a l
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
I
3:
manager f o r th e s e two d i v is io n s , w hat was your jo b or
' > **-*.-
1
m issio n , what were you re sp o n sib le fo r?
v;.: A
W ell, b a s ic a lly , you s t i l l f i r s t have
to have a g en eral understanding of the b a s ic s . These
a re complex b u sin esses because i t handles a range of
p r o d u c ts . S p e c ia l C h em icals, a s X s a id , i s maybe a
hundred p r o d u c ts . So y o u 'v e g o t to g e t in and u n d er
stand the general workings of i t , the product lin e s ,
the m arkets, the budget, the s a le s , the p r o f ita b ilJ ij^ S ^ ^ l'
Q Any problem s w ith th e product,
A Problems to the e x te n t they a m a terial problem s, yes.
.'-v.; \s,xr.
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t
Q Do you have some p erso n who a d v is e s
you as to what is a m a te ria l problem and what is not?
A W ell, m a te ria l, of course, is in the
eyes of the beholder a t the time y o u 're ta lk in g about i t .
The whole philoso p h y o f an o p e ra tio n , go back to th e
C a th o lic church or an y th in g you w ant, i t ' s fundam entally
o f daidgatiO Q and s e ttin g up people f u n c tio n a lly or a c ro ss
fu n ctio n a l lin e s to run the various businesses or to
a d m in iste r the fu n c tio n ,a n d the h ig h e r up you go In i t
th e sm aller the flow of inform ation or you'd, obviously,
d ie in th e e f f o r t , damn n e a r d ie anyw ay, b u t i t ' s k e p t
t h i n . So y o u 'r e fu n d a m e n ta lly r e l i a n t on th e judgm ent
o f th e people who r e p o r t to you h av in g given them broad
JA M E S MAY R E P O R TIN G S E R V IC E
1 in s t r u c tio n s . So i f an in d iv id u a l th in k s som ething is
2 Im portant^ o r is going to be im p o rtan t, you probably
3 h e a r a b o u t l t . I f he does n o t, th e odds a re good you
4 w ill not.
5 Q So m a te ria l problems would then be 6 b ro u g h t to your a t te n t io n by somebody under you as
7 G eneral Manager, is th a t rig h t?
8 A I f he determ in ed i t was a m a te ria l
9 problem or probably going to be a m a terial one, 10 th e n i t ' s a n is s u e o f tim in g on i t ,
\
11 Q You w ere n o t an i n i t i a l , id e n t
12 o f m a t e r i a l problem s?
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V1
w * r, .V 4 :^ ; . ,-fcV .
13 A No.
*V
14 Q You w ere a r e c e i v e r o f them, r i g h t ?
15 A Through a number o f la y e r s o f re v ie w l i n g and s i f t i n g , y eah . 17 Q And, I ta k e i t , t h a t u n d er you one
18 o f th o s e l e v e l s , th e r e were some m ed ical p e o p le , i s
-1( *
'\ ^ v
19 ' t h a t rig jw ti'v
20
i VA
No. I have no r e c o lle c tio n o f any
21 m e d ica l p eo p le in an y o f th e o p e r a tio n s t h a t I h ad.
22 Q And w h ile you were G en eral Manager
23 o f th e s e two - - th e y a r e d i v i s t a s , i s t h a t r i g h t ?
24 A They a r e d iv is io n s .
25 Q G en eral Manager o f th e s e two d i v i s i o n s ,
JA M E S M AY R E P O R TIN G S E R V IC E
ft
1 d id you have some kind o f a l i n e t h a t g o t you over to
2 the M edical Department fo r communication purposes and 3 fo r th e Idea of m a te ria l problems or an y th in g lik e th at? 4 A W ell, th e re would c e r ta in ly be, i f 5 th e re were a m a te ria l problem tu rn up, th e re would be a 6 l i n e to th e M edical D ep artm en t, y e s . You would h e a r 7 from the M edical Departm ent, t h a t 's c o rre c t.
8 Q So i f I u n d ersta n d w hat y o u 're sa y in g , 9 th e n , somewhere below you when you were G eneral 10 o f th e s e d iv isio n s th e r e would be some mechanism 11 a t l e a s t , somebody th e r e would knew to r e p o r t a m a te r ia l 12 p ro b lem , sa y , in v o lv in g h e a l t h , to th e M edical D e p a rte 13 m ent; and chances a r e you would g e t t h a t in fo rm a tio n 14 y o u r s e lf from th e M ed ical D ep artm en t, th e n , i f i t 15 m a te r ia liz e d and was deemed to be o f enough s i g n i f i l c anefi t h a t you sh o u ld know a b o u t i t , i s t h a t w hat y o u 'r e 17 sa y in g ? 18 A Yes. 19 Q A ll r i g h t . C a rry in g i t a s te p f u r t h e r , 20 X s u p p o se , g e t t i n g th o se m a t e r i a l problem s to you was a 21 s p e c i f i c c h a rg e to th e p eo p le u n d er you? C e r t a in l y 22 d i d n 't d isc o u ra g e them b rin g in g t h a t s t u f f to you, d id you? 23 A Oh, heavens n o . X d o n 't know t h a t i t 24 would have been an y more a s p e c i f i c ch a rg e th a n a dozen 25 o th e r th in g s m ight have been a s p e c i f i c c h a rg e . C e r t a in l y
JA M E S M AY R E P O R TIN G S E R V IC E
I
1 th e re would be an understanding I f th e re a re m a te ria l 2 problem s, yes. 3 Q You need to know a b o u t I t because 4 th a t's p a rt of your Job? 5 A T h at's c o rre c t. 6 Q And Is t h a t k in d o f management 7 a p p ro a c h r e f l e c t e d in the Management By R e s u lts Program? 8 A W e ll, l e t me go b ack to t h a t one 9 more tim e w ith you. T hat program would n o t s p e c if ^ t h a t . ;v 10 s o r t o f d e t a i l , I t would n o t c o v e r t h a t w ith some s p e d * : 11 f i c l t y , ta k e Im p o rta n t em erging problem s up th e l i n e , 12 i t w o u ld n 't do t h a t . 13 Q I u n d e rs ta n d t h a t , b u t was th e o v e r a l l 14 p h ilo so p h y o f t h a t program c a lc u l a te d to se e to i t t h a t 15 you, s a y , a s th e G en eral Manager o f th e d i v i s i o n a r e l k e p t Inform ed o f th o se k in d s o f th in g s ? 17 A S u re . 18 Q In o th e r words - 19 A S u re . 20 Q There Is a p o s itiv e p ressu re In th a t 21 program to g e t t h a t to you and th e n , I su p p o se , p a r t 22 o f y o u r a c c o u n t a b i l i t y would be t o g e t i t to th e n e x t 23 im p o rta n t? 24 A There is a p re s s u re in th eprogram 25 t o have th e c o r p o r a tio n a c t r e s p o n s ib ly , an d to t h a t e n d ,
JA M E S M AY R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E
I
1 w hatever one needs to do to a c t re sp o n sib ly is p a rt
2 o th a t program, no q u e stio n .
3 Q I su p p o se , th e f u r t h e r down you g e t ,
4 th e more r e s p o n s i b i l i t y th e s e v a r io u s managers have f o r
5 f i l l i n g in the d e ta il w ith in the purview of th a t p h ilo s 6 q>hy a s i t r e l a t e s to t h e i r s p e c i f i c jo b , r i g h t ?
7 A W ell, the s ty l e o f management, as
8 I say , is ty p ic a l of most la rg e o rg a n iz a tio n a l s ty le s .
9
:S ' . i Says you d eal w ith the problems y o u 're capable o
>y.
10 h a n d lin g a t your l e v e l , o th e rw is e e v e ry th in g g o e sr/U pf' wk.. - rt- ;
11 So you fu n d a m e n ta lly t r y to h a n d le th e is s u e s a n d c p ro b - . ^ 12 lems and c irc u rn sta n c e s you c a n . F a i l i n g t h a t , yottpttt-V. , y ;.
13 them up.
14 Q And d id you f in d d u rin g your te n u re
15 a s G en eral Manager o f th e s e two d iv is o n s and r e a l l y ,
16 I suppose - - Were you a G en e ra l Manger o f th e S p e c ia lty
17 C hem ical D iv is io n ?
18 A Y es. 19 Q So thatis th r e e g e n e ra l m a n a g e rsh ip s,
20 I g u e s s , on th e li n e ?
21 A Uh huh ( y e s ) . 22 Q - Did you f in d t h a t t h a t system w nrked 23 p r e t t y w e l l , t h a t you w ere inform ed o f problem s t h a t 24 p eople th o u g h t w ere m a te ria l? In o th e r w ords, you 25 w e r e n 't s u r p r i s e d , were you, d u rin g t h a t . p e r i o d o f tim e
JA M E S M AY R E P O R TIN G S E R V IC E
)
f
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
*/
t h a t th e r e was some f e s t e r i n g problem 'dow n h e re th a t
nobody ave? to ld you ab o u t? Most o f i t finfe I t s way
t o you t h a t was o f some Im portance?
A Yes, 1 guess th a t's a f a ir statem en t.
A lthough, th e re ' s always a tendency in a larg e organize-
tio n to tr y and solve the problem y o u rse lf a t your
le v e l b efo re you take i t up. T h a t's in h e re n t in a b ig
o r g a n iz a tio n . So w h eth er you an d I would make th e same
judgm ent i f the problem came up w ith th e tim e lin e ss- I t . .
sh o u ld have come up is h ig h ly u n lik e ly ,
* r-:\" ~ v--*'
Q O.K. So y o u 're w orking away h e re
on the l i n e a s a G en eral Manager o f a d iv is io n ? A Uh huh ( y e s ) .
Q How long d id t h a t c o n tin u e ? Y o u 're
In '7 7 .
A I th in k t h a t was u n t i l th e end o f 1977.
Q And w hat happened th en ?
A Then I was made V ice P r e s id e n t and
Managing D ire c to r o f th e Commercial P ro d u cts Company.
Q Now, i s t h a t s t i l l a l i n e jo b ?
A T h a t's a lin e Jo b . That was a promo-
tio n to th e head o f an o p e ra tin g company as opposed to
a d iv is io n . D iv isio n s re p o rt to companies in the then
s true tu re .
Q I understand th a t's su b je ct to change
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
t
31
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from time to tim e.
*2
' , A W ell, th a t's r ig h t.
3 Q But during th a t period of tim e, in
4 any e v e n t, d iv is io n s re p o rte d to companies?
5 A R ight,
6 Q And com panies to c o r p o r a te s t a f f ?
7 A W ell, not to corporate s ta f f , but to
8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 i 20 21 22 23 24 25
an E xecutive Vice P re sid e n t. Q O.K. And w hat d id th e Commercial.
*\
P ro d u c ts Company do?
`
A I t had, l e t 's see, three elem ents to
i t . I t had the E le c tro n ic s D iv isio n , which fundan& ntplly
*
m anufactured sem iconductor grade s ilic o n , F ischer con-
t r o l s , which is in the valve re g u la to r c o n tro l in s tru -
m entation b u sin e ss, and Monsanto Enviro-Chem, which
designs and builds su lfu ric p la n ts, m ist elim in a to rs,
c a ta ly sts fo r the su lfu ric acid p la n ts, I guess th a t
was i t . Fundam entally non-chem ical b u s in e s s e s . They
made, we would c a l l i t , th in g s and n o t pounds o f p ro d u c t.
Q You know how o ld th e Commercial
P ro d u cts D iv is io n is o r was a t t h a t tim e, w hether i t
was known by t h a t name o r n o t? ' You know how lo n g th e
company's been in th a t end of the market?
A We had a Commercial P ro d u c ts Company
f o r some y e a r s . I d o n 't know w hat some I s . F our o r f iv e
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
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1 2 3 4 5 .6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
y e a rs maybe b e fo re t h a t , b u t I t d i d n 't n e c e s s a r ily look
th e same i n each o f th o se y e a r s . We would r o l l b u s in e s s e s
in and o u t o f them.
Q Enviro-Chem made equipm ent f o r
em ission abatem ent and th a t s o rt of thing?
A Scrubbers. Fundam entally the equiva-
lent of scrubbers.
Q I take i t from what y o u 're saying
t h a t t h a t k in d o f b u s in e s s was r e l a t i v e l y new to M oosantotr.:
I t w asn 't there twenty years?
: * ->v
A No. S ilic o n we had been in c lo s e
*
to tw enty y e a rs . The F is c h e r C o n tro ls we a c q u ir e d i t t :T ^ V t*
1969, and Enviro-Chem had been aro u n d - - We had been
in the s u lf u r ic a c id p la n t b u sin ess fo r a number of
y e a r s , so I would sa y th e y w ere n o t new b u s in e s s e s . Tfen
to twenty y ears.
q S u lfu ric a c id business twenty years?
A Yes. W ell, th a t's b u ild in g p la n ts.
That I s n 't making s u lf u r ic a c id .
Q But i t had to do w ith the technology
of em ission abatem ent or co n tro l?
A . Not th e s u lfu ric acid p lan t i T h at's
ta k in g Monsanto technology fo r a design and c o n s tru c tio n
o f p la n ts and b u ild in g a p la n t. I f y o u 're a company
th a t wants a s u lfu ric a c id p la n t, w e 'll b u ild you one
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
4
e$
c
ta,
*
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
f o r X p r ie s . The r e s t o f Enviro-Chem was Involved in the design and sa le of systems to --
Q Like, dust control? A Yeah. S02, fo r example. Q Is th a t a p r e tty old b u sin e ss, too? A Yeah. Q What a b o u t co n tid . o f H2S? Was t h a t j u s t a b u sin e ss g e n e ra lly i f th e r e was a method f o r c o n tro l of em issions o f a p a r tic u la r th in g , you'd t r y ; to id e n tify i t and go a f t e r it? A Yeah. But i t was fu n d am en tally a n S02 em issio n b u s in e s s . Q And p a r t o f t h i s b u s in e s s , I su p p o se , was to s ta y c u r r e n t w ith contem porary tech n iq u es f o r c o n t r o ll in g S02 e m issio n s, c o n t r o l, o r contem porary technique fo r m anufacturing, b u ild in g and designing p la n ts f o r the m anufacture o f S02? A They have fu n d a m e n ta lly made th e same product f o r a number of y e a rs. I t ' s n o t a wide range o f p r o d u c t. I t ' s fu n d a m e n ta lly a p ro d u c t we have s o ld and continued to s e ll in to the market place. Q A ll r i g h t . So y o u 're Managing D ire c to r o f t h i s company now by th e end o f '7 7 ? A Uh huh ( y e s ) . Q What happened n ext?
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
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10 11 12
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21 22
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A W e ll, in th e end o f 178 I became
V ice P re sid e n t and Managing D ire c to r o f the I n d u s tr ia l
Chem icals Company.
Q So t h a t 's th e same le v e l job?
Same l e v e l jo b b u t now a b ig g e r o p e ra tio n
Q in th a t company?
Now, was th e N itr o P la n t in c lu d e d
A Yes.
Q Now, i s t h a t th e f i r s t tim e y o u ; h a d ^ ^
any re s p o n s ib ility fo r the N itro Plant?
* / * :' %
4v *
A Yes. W ell, you say any r e s p o n s ib ility ,
l e t me add to t h a t . The a n sw e r' s c o r r e c t , b u t I v * S : ... v
c o n n e c te d w ith, i t e a r l i e r b ecau se we made a p ro d u c t in
th e S p e c i a lt y C hem icals Company a t N itr o .
Q What p ro d u ct was th a t?
A But we w ere n o t a c c o u n ta b le f o r th e
p la n t. Product c a lle d m ethionine hydroxy-analog, c a lle d
MHA, so I knew th e r e was su ch a th in g a s th e N itr o P l a n t .
Q I s t h a t a b o u t a l l you knew a b o u t i t ?
A J u s t a b o u t. I t ' s a vary sm a ll o p e r a tio n
th a t the m anufacturing happened to take place th e re,
Q A ll r i g h t . So how lo n g d id you s t a y
in th a t p o sitio n ? T h a t's about in '78 o r '7 9 ,
A That should have been the end of '7 8 ,
I guess, u n til '8 1 . About th ree years.
JA M E S M AY R E P O R TIN G S E R V IC E
42
<3
1 Q O.K. And when d id you move to
2 your present position?
3 A Then I became E xecutive Vice P re sid e n t
4 and th e I n d u s t r i a l C hem icals Company r e p o r te d to me a lo n g
5 w ith some o th e r s .
Q What o th e r companies re p o rte d to you?
7 A Monsanto P la s tic s and R esins and the
8 E le c tr o n ic s D iv is io n w hich we to o k o u t s e p a r a te ly from
9 th e I n d u s t r i a l Chem icals Company.
-i
10 Q Any o th e r com panies r e p o r t to y ouf .-'r
11 A W ell, we s p l i t o u t some. They w e r e n 't
12 a c t u a l l y com panies th e n . We s p l i t o u t -- No. Maybe t h a t *.**' 13 was i t a t t h a t p o in t in tim e . I 'm s t i l l E x e c u tiv e Vice 14 P r e s id e n t b u t I d o n 't do th e same th in g .
15 Q You have a l i t t l e d i f f e r e n t jo b ? 1 A R ig h t. Now I o v e rse e F is c h e r C o n tr o ls , 17 th e e l e c t r o n i c s company w hich we have made i n t o an o p e r a t 18 in g company, th e E n g in e e re d P ro d u c ts D iv is io n , w hich i s 19 a new d i v i s i o n we c r e a te d l a s t S ep tem b er, and th e M onsanto
20 O il Company*
21 Q Y o u 're f a i r l y w e ll o u t o f c h e m ic a ls ,
22 a r e n 't you? 23 A B a s ic a ll y , y e s . 24 Q Then t h a t became tr u e when? 25 A The end o f '8 2 .
f
JA M E S M AY R E P O R TIN G S E R V IC E
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Q So you havo been f a i r l y w e ll weaned
from Che ch em ical b u s in e s s ?
A Yeah.
(Whereupon a s h o r t r e c e s s was ta k e n ,
a f t e r which the follow ing proceedings were h a d ;)
Q (By Mr. C a lw e ll) A ll r i g h t . Mr.
H arbison, I ' l l hand you w h a t's been marked P l a i n t i f f s '
E x h ib it #330 (Mosanto #8323075 th ro u g h #8323079), a n d p.-n.V --
* * ; * . '
ask you to take a look a t th a t.
/' -
A O.K.
Q A ll r i g h t , Mr. H a rb iso n , you have /
had an o p p ortunity to look a t E x h ib it #330, and i f I m ight b r i e f l y d e s c r ib e i t , i t a p p e a rs to be a memorandum
on Monsanto le tte r h e a d , is th a t c o rre c t?
A C orrect.
Q And i t ' s d a te d June 25, 1979,
a p p a r e n tly #a u th o re d by W illiam J . M c C a rv ille , and
d i r e c t e d t o M. C. Thro da h i , and y o u 'r e in d ic a te d a s
having received a copy of i t w ith i t s attach m en ts, rig h t?
A R ight.
Q Do you have a n y re a s o n to b e lie v e you
d id n 't get a copy of th at?
A No.
Q I would lik e fo r you to tu rn to page
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
\
44
4 of th e e x h ib it, which should be the th ird page of
the attachm ent. At the top of the page th ere is a
r e f e r e n c e made to a DMEH s tu d y . I t ' s documented para*
g rap h A. You se e th a t?
MR. FLESKA: I d o n 't th in k we have i t .
Q (By Mr. C a lw e ll) Mr. H a rb isa n , th e
pape X want you to look a t is a Monsanto document
#8323078. At the top of the page y o u 'll see a para
g rap h l e t t e r e d A r e f e r r i n g to a DMEH s tu d y . You t e d 't h a t ? ^
* "Vi*
.^
A Uh huh ( y e s ) .
.
Q During the p erio d of time th a t tills
memo i s d a te d you were th e Manager o f th e I n d u s t r i a l
Chem icals Company, is th a t r ig h t?
A T h a t's c o r r e c t , I was Managing D ire c
to r of the company, uh huh (y es).
Q And is t h a t th e re a s o n you w ere co p ied ?
A Yes, undoubtedly,
Q Do you know w hat th e DMEH s tu d y was
or is?
A I re c a ll hearing i t . I cannot te ll
you th e s p e c ific s of i t . Reading I t does n o t s u rp ris e
me, b u t I can n o t t e l l you th e s p e c if ic s o f i t . '
Q You know w hat you can t e l l me a b o u t i t ?
A A bout th e DMEH stu d y ?
Q Yes.
JA M E S MAY R E P O R TIN G S E R V IC E
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Q> # \ *1 2 3 4 5 6
7
8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
/
A Only s e e in g t h a t trig g e rs In my mind the f a c t t h a t i t was e x a c tly w hat i t s a y s , a n exam ine-
t l o n o f employee h e a lth re c o rd s by DMEH. T hat makes
s e n s e to me as X r e c a l l i t , b u t X c a n 't r e c a l l a n y th in g beyond th a t about i t .
Q ferred to there?
Do you know w hat em ployees a r e r e -
A I do n o t s p e c if ic a lly .
Q Do yew knew g e n e r a lly o r do you hav-^-';.:
any reco llectio n ?
* ; v-
A We a r e ta lk in g a b o u t N itr o em p lo y ees9 b u t w hether i t was a l l N itro em ployees or a s e l e c t 'g r o u p , . . :
I do n o t know.
*
q
y So a s f a r a s you r e c a l l , i t was the
N itro em ployees, rig h t?
A Yes.
q Do you know why th e s tu d y was u n d e rta k e n ?
A My r e c o l l e c t i o n i s th e S te e lw o rk e rs
- a .'
wanted to b rin g in Dr. S e lik o ff to examine a group of
employees th a t Monsanto ag reed to . Dr. Suskind, I th in k ,
had been involved in the Seveso, I ta ly , s itu a tio n , I th in k
he had done a review or a stu d y , w hatever you want to
c a l i i t , on N itr o em ployees a t some e a r l i e r d a t e , I
th in k he thought I t was h e lp fu l to h is review o f th e
I ta lia n s itu a tio n to redo, relook a t the N itro population.
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
\
4) 1
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1 My r e c o l l e c t i o n i s t h a t he even pro p o sed t h a t . We a g re e d
2 w ith th a t Thought i t was u s e fu l to h^ve a n o th e r view
3 o f th e N itro population In a d d itio n to Dr. S e lik o f f 's .
4 I g u e s s , my r e c o l l e c t i o n i s t h a t was to be augm ented
5 by th e DMEH rev iew o f r e c o r d s . I g u e s s , t h a t 's a b o u t
6 a s c l e a r a s I can be on i t .
7 CJ As th e G en eral Managing D ir e c t o r ,
8 is th a t the tit le ?
9 A (Nods head a f f i r m a t i v e l y . )
10
Q Was t h i s DMSH s tu d y an d th e Stahl*
'
11 w o rk e rs ' s tu d y an d th e Seveso i n c id e n t and a l l t h a t t h a t
12 you j u s t ta lk e d a b o u t, was t h a t one o f th o se m a te r ia l.
13 problem s t h a t we ta lk e d a b o u t e a r l i e r t h a t worked i t s
14 way up to your p o s itio n ?
15 A Y es, b u t we a r e in a s l i g h t l y d i f f e r e n t
16 c o n te x t. When we ta lk e d a b o u t i t e a r l i e r , I was G en eral
17 Manager o f th e S p e c i a lt y C hem icals D iv is io n , T hat w ould
18 hav e been a n d w as, because Lee M i l l e r , you s e e , was th e n { ,
19 th e G en e ra l Manager o f S p e c ia lty C h em icals. T hat
20
G eneral Manager would have been .p rin c ip a lly in charge
21 o f t h a t . So th e is s u e - - I 'm n o t a t a l l s u g g e s tin g
22 i t i s n ' t a n is s u e o f im p o r ta n c e -- b u t th e is s u e would 23 have been more c e n te r e d on M ille r in h is r o le a s G en e ra l 24
M anager th a n i t now would have on me a s th e M anaging 25 D ir e c to r w ith M il le r r e p o r t i n g to me, so th e two s i t u a t i o n s
JA M E S M AY R E P O R TIN G S E R V IC E
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a re no t com parable.
v'. Q
Do you r e c a l l -- and t h i s nay be a
- poor ch o ice o f words -- b u t what your involvem ent was
w ith t h i s g e n e ra l is s u e su rro u n d in g the DM^H stu d y
th a t you recounted fo r us?
A I d o n 't re c a ll any p a rtic u la r in -
volvem ent in th e EMEH s tu d y . My r e c o l l e c t i o n i s simply
h earin g about i t , I have no re c o lle c tio n of taking
an y a c t i o n on i t . H earin g a b o u t i t , I g u e ss,
^ :^.-v "
Q I f you would continue to hold
E x h ib it 330, I ' d lik e to hand you 331 (Monsanto #8322875),
and ask you to take a look a t th a t, I f you would, A Uh huh ( y e s ) .
*. '
Q A ll r i g h t . Mr, H p rb iso n , c o u ld you
id e n tify th a t document fo r the reco rd , p lease.
A Itis a memorandum from Lee A. M i l l e r ,
d a te d May 10, 1979, s u b je c t is N itr o S a fe ty /P R Program
t o ms,
. r*
Q
And is t h a t th e same Lee A. M ille r
who would be th e G eneral Manager o f th e - -
A - - S p e c ia lty Chemicals D iv isio n ,
Q Yes, Who a t 4:hat p o in t in tim e was
answ ering to you a s Managing D ire c to r of I n d u s tr ia l
C hem icals Company?
A T h at's c o rre c t.
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
4
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3 4 5
6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Q And I f you w ould, s i r , p le a s e re a d
th e f i r s t two paragraphs o f th a t l e t t e r .
A "You ask ed f o r my view s on th e
a t ta c h e d p ro p o s a l from M e ssrs. McKee and W ilk in s, I
b eliev e i t is a w ell thought through and sound approach
t o a d i f f i c u l t an d r i s k y s i t u a t i o n . My p rim ary co n cern
is the re la tiv e tim ing of the S e lik o ff and Suskind stu d y ."
Q O.K. Thank you, s i r .
New, do you know w hat you fo r a rep o rt on, wh^t stu d y , in th a t le tte r?
- .- . - f V
A I re a lly d o n 't, I guess I dan*tf
Q Was i t th e DMEH s tu d y or a n y t h i n g "
connected w ith th a t s e t of circum stances th a t you d es-
crib ad fo r us e a r lie r ?
A The a tta c h e d p ro p o sa l to w hich he
r e f e r s , I d o n 't know w hat t h a t i s .
Q I d o n 't e ith e r.
A T h a t's n o t a stu d y . That must have
been son "proposal to , I guess -- W ell, I r e a lly d o n 't
know w hat th e th in g i s . The a t ta c h e d p ro p o s a l i s n o t
a tta c h e d to t h i s co v e r memo. 1 d o n 't know w hat i t i s .
Q A ll r i g h t . Do you knew w hat th e r i s k y
situ a tio n is th a t's referre d to there?
A I d o n 't know from my r e c o l l e c t i o n
th en . I could in te r p r e t i t from th is .
'-
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V IC E
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> 1
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23 **
24
25
Q What would be your in te r p r e ta tio n ?
"A I would in te r p r e t i t th a t M ille r
t ..thought th e re le a s e of the S e lik o ff study out of sync
w ith the re le a s e of the Suskind stu d y would give an
imbalanced p ic tu re o f what the re s u lts of the study m ight
be.
Q Now, th e S e l i k o f f stu d y and S uskind
s tu d y r e f e r r e d to in E x h ib it 331, a r e th o se th e two
s tu d ie s you were r e f e r r i n g to when you were e x p l a f t i i g ^ ^ l V i h.
th e DMEK s tu d y you were d e s c r ib in g e a r l i e r in you: f c t f s - ; y
timony?
A Yes.
- '. ' y
Q A ll r i g h t . I f you would tu rn back to
E x h ib it 330 on th e same page t h a t we w ere ta lk in g a b o u t.
R eferen ce i s made in the p a ra g ra p h u n d er DMEH S tu d y to
a c o n t r a c t la b o r a to r y in P h ila d e lp h ia . Do you have an y
idea what lab o rato ry th a t is?
A I do n o t.
Q In your p o sitio n as a D irector of the
I n d u s t r i a l Chem icals Company, d id you have r e s p o n s i b i l i t y
f o r th e b u d g e tin g and e x p e n d itu re s of money f o r t h a t
company?
A Yes.
Q Did you have to approve th e budgets
and exp en d itu res, th a t kind of thing?
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
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A W ell, a t th a t le v e l I would approve
th e b u d g e t, b u t th e b u d g et I s -- how do I * a n t to sa y I t --
i t ' s ag g reg ated . There a re n o t 8000 lin e s of c a te g o rie s .
There Is a lin e and y o u 'll approve I t . E xpenditures
depend on th e s iz e o f th e e x p e n d itu re s and th e n a tu re
of It.
Q During the f is c a l year th a t a budget
would ap p ly to , I f th e re was a re q u e s t f o r a budget
supplem ent or budget tra n s fe r concerning an Item th a t
was n o t contem plated a t th e tim e th e budget was draw b,*3fc ?
would th a t be th e kind o f th in g th a t would be brought
to your atten tio n ? A I f I t was o f s ig n if ic a n c e , y e s.
' ,
Q Was th e r e a d o l l a r l e v e l c u t o f f f o r
t h a t o r a g e n e ra l ran g e t h a t peo p le u n d er you would know
t h a t t h i s i s som ething t h a t Mr. H arbison r e a l l y ought
to take a look a t?
A C e rta in ly th e re would be a d o lla r
le v e l i f we a re ta lk in g about s h if tin g m illio n s o f
d o llars around.
Q Sure. But p ra c tic a lly speaking - -
A P r a c tic a lly speaking, you could
s h i f t s u b s t a n t i a l sums o f money In s m a lle r in c re m e n ts
from one c a te g o ry to the o th e r and th a t would be a t th e
d is c re tio n of th e G eneral Manager In running h is b u sin e ss.
J A M E 5 MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
)
5
%
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y i 2 3 4 5 6 7
8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Q Say, $150,000?
A W ell, I t m ight depend on what i t ' s f o r .
150 mightr a r m ight n o t have come to me. i t would J u s t
depend on th e n a tu r e o f i t .
Q I f i t was f o r a h e a lth stu d y , would
th a t be som ething th a t would be brought to your a tte n tio n ?
A 150 f o r a h e a lth stu d y , t h a t 's b e-
tween p o ssib le and lik e ly , yes. ' v ' ^
Q That would n o t be an e x p e n d i t u r ^ - b r ^ ^
you expected to see in a given year?
A U nless we had p u t i t in th e b u d g et
ahead of tim e, Q
And I was sp e ak in g o f - -
V.;^. v;.
A E xtraordinary,
Q Yes.
A I f i t had been in the budget, no.
Q Do you know i f th e b u d g et f o r th e
f i s c a l y ear th a t would in clu d e June 29, '7 9 , in clu d ed
r
money f o r th e D>H s tu d y o r th e S u sk in d stu d y ?
- A I re a lly d o n 't, I c o u ld n 't say.
Q I f you would new tu r n to th e second
page of E x h ib it 330, which is the f i r s t page o f th e
attachm ent.
A Uh huh ( y e s ) . S t a r t i n g " S itu a tio n s " ?
Q Yes.
JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE
1
5
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> 1 2 3 4 5 6
7
8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
A A ll r l^ it.
q Under Roman Numeral IX th e r e c a l l e d
"M ajor Issu es" th e re a re fo u r su b je c ts id e n tifie d as
m ajor is s u e s . Would th o se item s be o f th e c a te g o ry of
m a te ria l problems th a t would have g o tte n to your le v e l
in a c c o rd a n c e w ith th e p o lic y t h a t we e a r l i e r ta lk e d a b o u t?
A That would g e n e ra lly be handled by
th e G en eral M anager, b u t I would sa y i t would come up
in p ro b a b ly th e form i t came u p . So I ' d have to g&yr
y e s , i t would be c a l l e d to my a t t e n t i o n .
/f
q So, fo r exam ple, major issu e number
f o u r th e r e i s , " I s th e r e a c o n tin u in g ex p o su re o f s ig * / ...
n lfic a n c e to d io x in s or o th e r compounds in the N itro
P la n t today?" That would be a m a te ria l problem th a t
would fin d I t s e l f to you?
A That probably would. I t 's lis te d
h e r e , so i t o b v io u sly came up.
Q Now, once a m a te r ia l problem g e ts
to you, and a s you t e s t i f i e d , th is was a form i t would
f in d i t s way to you, in accordance w ith your Management
fo r R esu lts Program, what a c tio n , i f an y , would you take?
A W ell, th a t's a s itu a tio n where I
would look a t i t and probably t a l k to th e G eneral Manager
ab o u t i t . I f I w ere convinced t h a t ha was p ro ceed in g
alo n g a p ath th a t seemed reaso n ab le and they were d riv in g
-
JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE
5:
'1
%
V-
%
1 2 3 4
5
6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
*
to te a c h a co n c lu sio n to th o se I s s u e s , t h a t 's th e way
,4V
I t would run, and he would rem ain fundam entally acco u n t-
able fo r th a t. Q In th is case i t would be Lee M iller? A Yes. Q Did you in f a c t t a l k to Mr, M ille r
a b o u t, fo r example, major issu e number fo u r th ere? A I d o n 't remember i t . I do n o t know. Q Do you know i f you to o k an y a c tio n ; . ;
reg ard in g major issu e number four? A I have no re c o lle c tio n of th a t.
q Do you know i f some c o n c lu s io n was
reached w ith re fe re n c e to n a jo r issu e number four? A I d o n 't remember. Q So you d o n 't know w h eth er i t was d e -
t e r mined w hether a c o n tin u in g exposure to d io x in was s ig n if le a n t a t N itro today?
A I do n o t know w ith o u t go in g b ack and exam ining r e c o r d s f X d o n 't know.
Q What re c o rd s would jou need t o make a de term lna t ion ?
A I d o n 't know w h a t's t h e r e .
q You J u s t d o n 't know?
A I d o n 1t know.
q You d o n 't have an y id e a w here t o go
JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE
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fo r an answer to that?
A I would assume e i t h e r in DMEH o r
w ith Lae M ille r th e r e may be some answ er to i t i f i n -
deed th e re a re f i l e s l e f t from th a t.
Q And w hat would have happened to th e
f ile s i f they are not le ft?
A I would assume th ey went out under
the re te n tio n and d e s tru c tio n p o lic y o f the company.
Q I g a th e r from your te s tim o n y t h a t ; . .7 w
even though th e s e a r e denom inated m ajor is s u e s a t your -le v e l, they d id n 't enjoy any p a r tic u la r predominance
V
over other issu es, is th a t rig h t?
A I sa id to you th a t is a major issu e
fo r a G eneral Manager and he would send th a t, as he
obvio u sly d id , send th a t forw ard; b u t you would funda-
m entally look to the handling o f th a t issu e from what .
we knew a b o u t i t a t t h a t tim e u n d er a G en eral M an ag er's a e g is. That d o e sn 't say th a t's not an issu e . I t
says he was empowered in a p o s itio n and a le v e l to
handle an issue lik e th a t.
Q Did you fdlow up on i t to se e how he
handled it?
A I do no t remember.
Q How would you have fo llo w e d up on
something lik e th a t in accordance w ith your job?
JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE
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A I would have e ith e r g o tte n a la te r
r e p o r t from him on I t o r had a m eeting w ith him on i t .
Q You w ould have r e q u e s te d a memo
from him?
A Yes, c e rta in ly p o ssib le.
Q And i f you had done t h a t , th e memo
would have been f ile d in th e o rd in a ry course of running
your o ffice, right?
A I would assume so .
. 7 ;-^,...
Q Or you' d know w here to go lo o k f o r a v:
memo lik e t h a t , th e n , r i g h t ?
A W e ll, I can t e l l you, y e s , I ' d know w here to lo o k ; b u t my f i l e s a r e p ro b a b ly two c a b in e ts
*
and t h e r e 's n o th in g from th e MIC days in them now.
W hether th e r e is som ething somewhere e l s e , .1 d o n 't know.
Q Where would th o se f i l e s be from MIC
days?
A They a re probably d estro y ed . I t
comes o u t th e doors and windows e v e n tu a lly .
Q I f you were going to look and see i f
those f i l e s were d estro y e d , where would you go?
A I ' d go t o my s e c r e t a r y and a s k h e r .
Q What is your s e c r e t a r y 's name?
A Mrs. Heuseck, H -e -u -s-e-c-k . .
Q Has she been a lo n g -s ta n d in g s e c r e ta r y
JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE
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1 o f your8?
^2
A Since '7 9 .
3 Q I f you l i k e , you can hand me 330 and
4 331. Mr. H arb iso n , I w ant to hand you w h a t's been marked
5 E x h ib its 332 (Monsanto #8322986) an d 333 (Monsanto V>8323053
6 and #8323054), and ask you to take a look a t th o se.
7 A Uh huh (Y es).
8 Q O.K. Mr. H a rb iso n , E x h ib it 332 t h a t
9 you have b efo re you and you've had an o p p o rtu n ity
v*.. --xvV.X'
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look a t is captioned " Budget-Monsanto S tudy."
.
:
11
A Uh huh ( y e s ) .
~
12 q Do you re c o g n iz e t h a t document?
13 A I r e a l l y don* t .
14 Q Do you r e c a l l e v e r h av in g seen i t b e f o r e ?
15 A No, I do n o t.
16 Q And do you know w hat M onsanto s tu d y
17 i s r e f e r r e d to in t h a t docum ent?
18 A I do n o t. 19 Q Do you know - - an d I r e a l i z e th e 20 document is on i t s face f a i r l y vague as to id e n tity -- 21 b u t do jou know who w ould know a b o u t w hat a p p e a rs to be a 22 m e d ica l s tu d y o f some k in d ? 23 A I don* t . You know, i t has no - 24 Q I know i t d o e s n 't . 25 A I t has no d a te , no s u b je c t, I d o n 't
JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE
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know w here y ou' d go.
'*'! *
I f i t did p e rta in to the Suskind
s tu d y th a t- y o u ta l k e d a b o u t, who w ould know a b o u t i t , i f you knew? Whose jo b w ould i t be?
A M ight be M ille r* s .
Q M ille r, perhaps?
A Perhaps.
Q A l l r i g h c . I f you*11new lo o k a t
E x h ib it 333. I t * s on M onsanto le tte r h e a d , is i t n o t? ; -7:.
A R ight.
Q And a p p e a rs to be a memorandum d a te d June 20, 1979, o v e r, looks lik e , C. J . Sm ith*s slg n a- . ture v
A Uh h u h ( y e s ) .
Q And a d d re s s e d to y o u , is i t n o t?
A C orrect.
Q Now, in th e f i r s t p a ra g ra p h o f t h a t
document i t re fe rs to the c o st o f the Suskind study?
x'
7 Ai'A
Uh hu h (ye s ) .
Q "To determ ine the long range h e a lth
e f f e c ts re s u ltin g from w orker exposure of 2,4,5-T
form erly produced a t the N itro P la n t should be borne
e n t i r e l y by >ftP f o r t h e f o l l o w i n g r e a s o n s . 1'
A Uh h u n ( y e s ) ,
Q Now, w h at s tu d y i s r e f e r r e d to i n t h a t
JA M E S M AY R E P O R TIN G S E R V IC E
docum ent, i f you know or i f you r e c a l l ?
A T h a t's th e s tu d y we a r e ta lk in g a b o u t t h a t was done a t N itro .
Q Do you know w hat k in d o f a s tu d y i t was? Was i t l i k e a m o rb id ity s tu d y o r m o r ta lity ?
A I d o n 't know. I know i t was a g a i n s t
th e lo n g term aK posure e f f e c t s , b u t X do n o t know d e t a i l s .
Q And do you know i f t h i s was a p a r t
o f th e DMEH stu d y ?
J
A W e ll, th e DMEH s tu d y o f m e d ic a l -- "--
re c o rd s and th e SuskJLnd s tu d y , w h atev er he was g o in g to
d o , w ere p a r a l l e l s t u d i e s , i f you w i l l ; b u t I do a o t ;; :>
know w h eth er one c o n tr ib u te d - - I d o n 't know w h eth er
S u sk in d used DMEH. I j u s t d o n 't know.
Q Y o u 're sp e a k in g a b o u t w hat you knew
In June of 1979, is th a t rig h t?
A T h at's c o rre c t.
Q Have you s u b s e q u e n tly le a rn e d an y
more a b o u t w hat th e S u sk in d s tu d y d id ? You t e s t i f i e d
w hatever he was to do. Did you e v e r le a rn in f a c t what
he did?
A You mean in d e t a i l how he co n d u cted
the stu d y or what he found?
Q J u s t d id you e v e r le a r n an y more a b o u t
i t . I'm in te r e s te d in w hat you know.
JA M E S M AY R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E
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A My u n d e rs ta n d in g o what he found was he co u ld fin d no c o r r e la tio n between the long term h e a lth e ffe c ts in th a t population and th e ir exposure t o d io x in and t h a t i t was n o t o u t o f th e realm o f the normal p o p u latio n >
q And where d id you g e t t h a t in fo rm a tio n ? A I d o n 't remember. q Now, t h i s document 333, now, you c o r r e c t me i f I 'm w rong, i t a p p e a rs to have so m eth in g ^' to do w ith a llo c a tio n o f the c o s t o f th is study7 \ A R ight. Q Now, was t h a t som ething t h a t you.would have to approve in your c a p a c ity as Managing D ir e c to r o f the I n d u s t r i a l Chem icals Company? A Yes, I t would o n ly be i f we a p p a r e n tly were h av in g a d isag reem en t among two o f th e u n its a s to where th e c o s ts should be logged. O therw ise, I. probably would n o t have seen i t .
\
q So th e f a c t th a t you saw I t , i s t h a t in d i c a t i v e th e r e w as, p e rh a p s , some d isa g re e m e n t on who ought to b ear th e expense o f th is study?.
A Yes. Q A ll r i g h t . I guess your company l o s t o u t, r i g h t , and you had to pay fo r i t ? A You kn<x*, I d o n 't remember who d id .
,
JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE
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1 Is th a t som ething th a t Lee M ille r
2 ou g h t to haoer?
3 A Who p a id f o r th a t?
4 Q Yes. 5 A I f th e I n d u s t r i a l C hem icals Company paid fo r i t , undoubtedly Lee M ille r paid fo r i t , so I
7 would guess he would.
8 Q So i f you w anted to f in d o u t who 9 p a id f o r i t an d how much, y o u 'd go a s k Lee M ille r?
10
A I 'd ask Lee M ille r.
.i-*-*
11 Q And i f you w anted to know th e r e s u l t s
12 o f th e S u sk in d s tu d y , who would you a s k ? 13 A M il le r , Roush, T h ro d a h l, an y o f them. 14 Q A ll r i g h t . And d id you a s k e i t h e r 15 o f th o se gentlem en? 16 A I have no s p e c i f i c r e c o l l e c t i o n o f 17 a s k in g them. 18 Q Do you have a n o n - s p e c if ic ? 19 A W e ll, I 'm c o n f id e n t I d id . 20 Q O.K. I f y o u 'd lik e to hand th o se 21 two docum ents back t o me, w e 'l l p r e s s on w ith a n o th e r . 22 A l l r i g h t . I w ant to hand you w h a t's been marked E x h ib it 23 #334 (Monsanto #8322987 th ro u g h #8322989). 24 A O.K. 25 Q Mr. H a rb lso n , you have had a n opportunity
JA M E S M AY R E P O R TIN G S E R V IC E
&
1 t o lo o k a t E x h ib it 334. Do you r e c a l l h a v in g seen t h a t
2 document before?
3 A X d o n 't re c a ll.
4 Q The docum ent r e f e r s t o , does I t n o t,
5 a study o f workers Involved In the m anufacture of 2,4,5-T ?
6 A R ight.
7 Q Raymond R, S u sk ln d , M.D. Do you know
8 i f t h i s document r e f e r s t o th e S u sk ln d s tu d y t h a t we
9 have been talk in g about?
..{>**'
10
A I do n o t s p e c i f i c a l l y knew.
i^
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Q On page 2 o f th e document a t th e
*v"
12 bottom o f th e page th e r e i s a p a ra g ra p h t h a t b e g i ns ,-..*,i,x--;- V r. 13 "Method and Scope o f th e E x a m in a tio n ."
14 A Uh huh ( y e s ) .
15 Q And d e s c r ib e d t h e r e i n , b e g in n in g on
16 t h a t page and c o n tin u in g on to th e t h i r d pag e, a r e a
17 number o f c l i n i c a l t e s t s t h a t a r e d e s c r ib e d a s , " C l i n i c a l
18 L a b o ra to ry Work w i l l in c lu d e ," an d t h e r e is a v e ry lo n g 19 l i s t o f a Humber o f m e d ica l t e s t s . I f t h i s document 20 p e r ta in e d t o th e S u sk ln d s tu d y we a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t
21 an d i f you w anted t o f in d o u t who p a id f o r t h a t , i s 22 Lee M ille r th e gentlem an you w ould in q u ir e o f in th e
23 o r g a n iz a tio n a l scheme o f th in g s ? 24 A 1 would th in k so . 25 Q Would t h a t be w here you would go?
/ J A M E S M A Y R E P O R T I N G 5 E R V I C E
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A Yes. Q I ' l l hand you w h at's been narked E x h ib it #335 (Monsanto #8322903), which ap p ears to be a l a te r from Clayton F. C a llls , dated le y 30, 1979, ad d ressed to you reg ard in g the Suskind stu d y , and ask you to take a look a t th a t fo r a m inute. A Uh huh (y e a ). Q A ll r i g h t . Mr. H erbison, you have had a chance to look a t th a t document, have you n o tf A Yes. Q Is there any reason to doubt th a t you got a copy o f th a t? A No. Q Now, t h a t document r e f e r s to th e Suskind h e a lth study, does i t not? A Uh huh ( y e s ) , Q Do you know w hat S u sk in d h e a l t h s tu d y is re fe rre d to there? A I cannot t e l l from th is s p e c if ic a lly . Q Then you have no r e c o lle c tio n a s to what i t would have been, I assume? A I have no re c o lle c tio n of reading t h a t docum ent. I d o n 't do u b t b u t t h a t i t came to me, but I d o n 't have any re c o lle c tio n o f reading i t . Q Do you have a n y r e c o l l e c t i o n a s to
JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE
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w hich Su s k in d s tu d y i s r e f e r r e d to th e re ?
A W all, he lin k s th is Suskind study
w ith the S e lik o ff stu d y , so I would assume i t ' s the
Suskind study a t N ltro .
Q O.K. And t h a t 's th e same s tu d y t h a t
you e a r l i e r d e s c rib e d in c o n n e c tio n w ith th e BMEH stu d y ?
A Uh huh ( y e s ) .
Q Did y<*i ta k e p r r t a t a l l in a u t h o r i z -
ing th a t stu d y to be made, or do you r e c a ll?
iv^y, . V'
jr - i
..
A W ell, I d o n 't s p e c i f i c a l l y r e c a l l s v :.
-j a u t h o r iz in g i t , b u t i f I would have had i t come t o me
fo r a u th o riz a tio n , 1 would have approved i t , I d o n 't
have any problem w ith th a t, but 1 d o n 't remember sig n -
ing a s h e e t th a t s a id , go w ith th a t stu d y .
Q T his was one o f th o se m a te r ia l problem s
t h a t found i t s way to you. Did you make an y i n v e s t i g a t i o n
a s to th e n a tu r e o f t h i s problem o r why a h e a l t h s tu d y
was re q u ire d a t a l l ?
A W ell, I have no sp e c ific re c o lle c tio n
o f my c o n d u c tin g a stu d y o f th e i s s u e , b u t from th e
memoranda t h a t have flow ed and on s e e in g th o se --
Q I t ' s a l l p r e t t y h azy r i g h t now?
A I 'm t r y i n g to remember some o f th e
events th a t went on. 1 d o n 't have any doubt but what
I m ight have had a g iv e -a n d -ta k e w ith some o f th e s e p eo p le
JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE
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64
1 on t h i s s t u d y * X would n o t have j u s t to s s e d memoranda
2 In the w a s te basket and sa id , w ell, run along and do i t ,
3 b u t I c a n n o t r e c a l l fo r you a s p e c if ic s e t o f circum
4 stan ces o r a m eeting on i t . 5 Q This whole p erio d o f tim e, th en , around
6 th is m a te ria l problem is som ething th a t's p re tty hazy to 7 you?
8 A W ell, i t is . A lthough, the problem 9 i t s e l f is not hazy. I t 's th a t I have no recollectlfla-vN :;-#*
VVs *'* .` * . '4"'*. *
10 o f N itr o o r S e l i k o f f o r Sus k in d o r a n y o f th o s e , X d o ^
11 have a r e c o l l e c t i o n o f th o s e . S p e c i f i c a l l y th e e v e n ts 12 t h a t o c c u rre d X d o n 't have a d i r e c t r e c o l l e c t i o n o # b u t 13 th e whole s i t u a t i o n , y e s . 14 Q Have ycu to ld me to d a y w hat your 15 r e c o l l e c t i o n i s a b o u t t h a t problem ? I s th e r e a n y th in g 16 y o u 'd lik e to add to i t ? 17 A W e ll, we d is c u s s e d th e S e lik o f f v e rs u s 18 S u sk in d s tu d i e s o r th e c o n n e c tio n o f th o s e , th e DMEH
*-T-
19 s tu d y . I have no more r e c o l l e c t i o n o f t h a t th a n X s a id 20 to you. I th in k i t ' s a review o f the long term reco rd s 21 o f th e em ployees. I have no more r e c o l l e c t i o n o f t h a t . 22 As X lo o k a t th e names o f th e p la y e r s in v o lv e d , th e y 23 make p e r f e c t l y good se n se to me a s b e in g th e p eo p le i n 24 v o lv e d , d e p a rtm e n ta l e n v iro n m e n ta l o f f i c e s . George 25 Roush i s th e head o f DMEH, th e h ead o f th e d iv is io n
JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE
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1 a c c o u n ta b le f o r th e p l a n t , C lay to n C a l l i s a s a DEO.
2 A l l o f th e s e peo p le make p e r f e c t l y good se n se to me
3 b ein g involved in th is network of review ing the s itu a 4 t i o n th e r e . So th e problem was one o f s u f f i c i e n t 5 m a t e r i a l i t y to b r in g to my a t t e n t i o n , t h a t 's t r u e , a l though, p rin c ip a lly handled by the G eneral Manager of 7 the d iv is io n in v o lv ed because t h a t was our s ty l e u n le ss
8 i t g o t beyond a p o in t he c o u ld h a n d le i t . Seems to me 9 he did e ffe c tiv e coordination w ith the m edical elem ents ^ ; 10 an d e n v iro n m e n ta l elem en ts o f th e company. I would n say th a t was in ex ecu tin g our s ty le of management. 12 So I 'm s u r p r i s e d by none o f i t an d i t r e c a l l s th e ` 13 g e n e ra l c irc u m sta n c e s to me, b u t beyond t h a t to s a y , 14 you know, y eah , I remember a m eetin g w ith th o se th r e e 15 g u y s, I r e a l l y d o n 't . 16 Q L et me hand you w h a t's been marked 17 336 (Monsanto #8322919), and i t a p p e a rs to be a memoran 18 dum on M onsanto l e t t e r h e a d d a te d June 1, 1979, a u th o re d 19 by George Roush, J r . , and i t was a d d re s s e d to you. 20 A O.K. 21 Q A l l r i g h t . Mr. I& rb is o n , i s th e r e 22 an y re a s o n t o doubt t h a t you r e c e iv e d t h i s l e t t e r or 23 memorandum? 24 A None. 25
MR. CALWELL; I assum e i t ' s s t i p u l a t e d
JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE
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3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 U 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
and a g re e d th a t ha may re a d th e m a te ria ls
. betw een mark "A" and MBn an d i t w i l l be
.
noted in the record as such. E xhibit
336 has been marked UAM th ro u g h "B ",
an d th e m a te r ia ls betw een th e l e t t e r s "A"
and "B" have been s tip u la te d as read by
th e deponent.
MR. PLESKA.: I t w i l l be ta k e n th e
w itn e s s re a d th e docum ent from p o in ts ?,AV.-
to nBM i n t o th e r e c o r d . Q (By Mr. C a lw e ll) Now, th an k you*
L e t me a s k you, t h i s document nttkfts
:***V- 't
.
t
r e f e r e n c e to a S uskind s tu d y . Do you know w hat s tu d y
th is document is re fe rrin g to?
A This is the study wrapped around the
N itro situ atio n .
Q And it* s th e same one t h a t you have
been ta lk in g about today?
:^A
Yea.
Q Do you know o f a n y o th e r S uskind
s tu d ie s o th e r than th is one on th e N itro work fo rc e ?
A None o th e r th a n my h e a rin g o f th e
ones t h a t w ere co n d u cted n sn y y e a rs b e fo re by Dr* S u sk in d .
Q And you w i l l n o te i n th e t h i r d p a r a -
graph o f th a t e x h ib it a re fe re n c e to 100,000 to 150,000
JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE
67
1 d o lla rs as an out-of-pocket co st.
2
j /'A
Uh huh ( y e s ) .
3
, *.,Q
I s th a t an amount o f money th a t would
4 have been brought to your a tte n tio n fo r the budget approval?
5 A Not n e c e s s a rily , butassuming i t
6 was n o t b u d g eted , th en i t would h ave.
7 Q O.K. Do you r e c o l l e c t w h eth er in
8 f a c t t h i s s tu d y wa s b u d g eted f o r o r n o t?
9 A I do n o t.
10 Q When d id you f i r s t le a r n abou tX thifc^> 'ir:^ t:
Vi 11 2 . 4 . 5 - T h e r b ic id e a t th e N Itro P la n t and some problem
- y 41
12 w ith e x p o su re s th e r e w hich a r e r e f e r r e d t o in perilfifCAph-v-'. .
13 one of th e e x h ib it?
14 A W ell, I have no re c o lle c tio n of i t
15 p r i o r to th e tim e t h a t t h i s e n t i r e is s u e came u p , w hich
16 Is a p p a re n tly from lo o k in g a t th e docum ent, th e May,
17 Ju n e, Ju ly tim e frame of 1979.
18 (J And s in c e le a r n in g o f t h a t , has your
19 knowledge About the exposure problem a t N itro r e la te d to 20 2 .4 .5 - T in creased ?
21 A My knowledge o f i t u n d o u b te d ly i n 22 c r e a s e d o v er t h i s p e rio d o f tim e . S in ce I have been
23 dlsassoc& ted w ith i t fo r q u ite a w hile now, i t ' s fu z z ie r
2 4 in my mind th a n i t p ro b a b ly was c o m p le tin g th e s e s t u d i o s .
25 Q In your p resen t p o sitio n as an Executive
JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE
6f
1 Vice P re sid e n t,y o u have no occasion to keep a b re a s t
2 o t h i s through th e company channels or an y th in g lik e
3 th a t, do you?
j. 4
A I do n o t through our in te r n a l company
5 c h a n n e ls , ho. Now, I 'm n o t e x c lu d in g w hat you re a d in 6 - the p ress and w h at's p u b lish ed , b u t I'm ta lk in g about
7 any flow o f in fo rm atio n w ith in th e company I d o n 't.
8 I t ' s n o t an a r e a o f my r e s p o n s i b i l i t y .
9 Q Do you know whose a r e a o f re s p o h s i V:.'
u *' ' ' >
10 b i l i t y i t IS?
*-.i>O/V. '9..* . Vr*/-
11 A You mean th e N itr o lo c a tio n i t s e l f ?
12 Q T his m a te r ia l problem t h a t we hav*
13 been ta lk in g a b o u t.
k- * ' V
14 A I would assume i t ' s b e in g h an d led
15 to d a y by Mr, T hrodahl p r im a r ily , Dr, Roush.
1 Q And th o se a r e th e p eo p le y o u 'd go to
17 t o f in d o u t a b o u t i t , r i g h t ?
18 A Today, y e s . 19 . Q Now, th e s e docum entsh av e , a number 20 o f them , have r e f e r r e d to th e S u sk in d s tu d y , a n d , 21 a p p a r e n tly ,y o u r memory is s u f f i c i e n t l y r e f r e s h e d , would 22 i t be f a i r f o r you to s a y , you b e l ie v e th e s e docum ents 23 w ere r e f e r r i n g to th e S u sk in d s tu d y on th e N itr o p eo p le? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Did you e v e r f in d o u t i f th o se s tu d ie s
JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE
69
1 were com pleted?
2 A I have a re c o lle c tio n of the stu d ies
3 being com pletedf yes,
4 Q And r e p o r te d to M onsanto?
5 A I'm sure they w ere, yes.
Q And, s p e c if ic a lly , the stu d ie s re fe rre d
7
to In th ese documents th a t I hrve handed to you, is th a t
8
w hat we a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t?
9
A Yes.
10 SfPlllll Q And do you r e c a l l how you fo u n d - e u ^
11
th e y w ere co m p leted , who t o l d you? ,12 .VA1' *,
A No, I d o n 't. I r e a l l y d o n 't , o v*
13
q A gain, I guess you would have asked
14
Dr. Throdahl or Dr. Roush?
15
A Yeah.
16
q And would i t be your r e c o l l e c t i o n V
17
th a t one of those gentlem en probably to ld you?
18
A I would th in k so .
19
Q Give you a l i t t l e b r ie f in g a s to what
20
the r e s u lts of the stu d ies were probably?
21
A A b rie fin g o r i t could havebeen a
22
memorandum o r b o th .
. 23
MR. CALWELL: Thank you, Mr. H e rb iso n .
24
25
E a r l H. H arb iso n
JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE
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STATE OF ILLINOIS >
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COUNTY OF,"HADIS )
3
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' I , M. JOY SPRINGER, a N o ta ry P u b lic , d u ly
/ . ' 5 commissioned and q u a lifie d in and fo r the County of
/ 6 * M adison, S ta te of I l l i n o i s , do hereby c e r t if y th a t - 7 p u rs u a n t to n o tic e came b e fo re me on th e 13th day
8 o f J u ly , 1983, a t the R ad isso n H o te l, Room 215, 9 th
9 S tr e e t and Convention P la z a , S t. L ouis, Misb 10 EARL H. HARBISCN, J R ., who was by me d u ly sworn
y\
11 t e s t i f y to th e t r u t h and n o th in g b u t th e t r u t h o f i1
>>y : 1
12
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h is
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13 in c o n tro v e rs y in t h i s c a s e ; t h a t he was th ereu p o n
14 c a r e f u l l y examined upon o a th , and h is e x a m in a tio n
*
15 red u ce d to w r i tin g un d er my s u p e r v is io n ; t h a t th e
16 d e p o s itio n i s a tr u e r e c o rd o f th e te stim o n y g iv en
17 by th e w itn e s s ; and s ig n a tu r e o f th e w itn e s s was n o t
18 w aiv ed .
19 I FURTHER CERTIFY t h a t I am n e i t h e r a t t o r 20
nay n o r co u n sel fo r nor r e la te d to n or employed by
21 an d o f th e p a r t i e s to th e a c t i o n in w hich t h i s depo22 s l t l o n i s ta k e n ; and f u r t h e r , t h a t I am n o t a r e l a t i v e
* 23 o r em ployee o f an y a t t o r n e y o r c o u n s e l employed by th e
24
p a rtie s h e re to , or fin a n c ia lly in te re s te d in the
25 a c tio n .
JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE
1
7