Document 82jk68wNxwvJ10R2k9Vpp8pqK

FILE NAME: Johnson & Johnson (JAJ) DATE: 2017 Aug 16 DOC#: JAJ017 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Legal - Deposition of Dr. John Hopkins Part 2 / Page 379 1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES 2 3 TINA HERFORD and DOUGLAS HERFORD, 4 Plaintiffs 5 vs Case No. BC646315 6 AT&T CORP., a subsidiary of AT&T INC. and its subsidiary PACIFIC BELL 7 TELEPHONE COMPANY, et al., 8 Defendants. 9 10 VIDEO DEPOSITION OF DR. JOHN HOPKINS 11 Day 2 12 Wednesday, August 16, 2017 13 at: 10:03 am 14 15 Taken at: 16 Shook Hardy & Bacon LLP 25 Old Broad Street 17 London EC2N 1HQ United Kingdom 18 19 Court Reporter: DEIRDRA JORDAN 20 21 22 23 24 25 Job No. 2657979 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 380 Page 382 1 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY 1 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY LAW DIVISION - MIDDLESEX COUNTY LAW DIVISION - MIDDLESEX COUNTY 2 2 3 DAVID CHARLES ETHERIDGE and 4 DARLENE PASTORE ETHERIDGE, 5 6 vs Plaintiffs, Docket No. MID-L-0932-17 AS 7 BRENNTAG NORTH AMERICA, INC. 8 (sued individually and as successor-in-interest to 9 MINERAL PIGMENT SOLUTIONS, INC. and as successor-in-interest to 10 WHITTAKER CLARK & DANIELS, INC.) et al., 11 Defendants. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 IRMAVERDOLOTTI, 4 Plaintiff, 5 vs Docket No. MID-L-5973-16 AS 6 BRENNTAG NORTH AMERICA, INC. 7 (sued individually and as successor-in-interest to 8 MINERAL PIGMENT SOLUTIONS, INC. and as successor-in-interest to 9 WHITTAKER CLARK & DANIELS, INC.) et al. 10 Defendants. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY LAW DIVISION - MIDDLESEX COUNTY 2 3 RONALD MARTIN TEUSCHER and 4 SHANNON TEUSCHER, 5 6 vs Plaintiffs, Docket No. MID-L-7249-16 AS 7 BRENNTAG NORTH AMERICA, INC. 8 (sued individually and as successor-in-interest to 9 MINERAL PIGMENT SOLUTIONS, INC. and as successor-in-interest to 10 WHITTAKER CLARK & DANIELS, INC.) et al. 11 Defendants. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 381 1 APPEARANCES 2 Appearing for the Plaintiffs: 3 SIMON GREENSTONE PANATIER BARTLETT, PC BY: CHRIS PANATIER, ESQ. 4 BY: LEAH C. KAGAN, ESQ. 3232 McKinney Avenue, Suite 610 5 Dallas, Texas 75204 214.276.7680 6 cpanatier@sgpblaw.com lkagan@sgpblaw.com 7 Appearing for the Defendant Johnson & Johnson: 9 TUCKER ELLIS LLP BY: SHARLA J. FROST, ESQ. 10 405 Main Street, Suite 500 Houston, Texas 77002 11 972.537.4205 sharla.frost@tuckerellis.com 12 13 Appearing for the Defendant Johnson & Johnson: 14 SHOOK HARDY & BACON LLP BY: KATHLEEN FRAZIER, ESQ. 15 JPMorgan Chase Tower 600 Travis Street, Suite 3400 16 Houston, Texas 77002-2926 713.227.8008 17 kfrazier@shb.com 18 19 Appearing for Whittaker Clark & Daniels: HOAGLAND LONGO MORAN DUNST & DOUKAS LLP 20 BY: MARC S. GAFFREY, ESQ. 40 Paterson Street, PO Box 480 21 New Brunswick, New Jersey 08903 732.545.4717 22 mgaffrey@hoaglandlongo.com 23 24 25 Page 383 2 (Pages 380 - 383) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 1 A P P E A R A N C E S...(continued) 2 Attending via telephone: LEVY KNIGSBERG LLP 3 BY: MOSHE MAIMON, ESQ. BY: DANIEL LATERRA, ESQ. 4 800 Third Avenue, 11th Floor New York, NY 10022 5 212.605.6200 mmaimon@levylaw.com 6 dlaterra@levylaw.com (For Plaintiffs in die Lanzo matter) 7 8 RAWLE & HENDERSON LLP BY: WILLIAM T. POLASKI, ESQ. 9 Henty W. Oliver Building 535 Sraithfield Street, Suite 1000 10 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15222 412-281-5000 11 william.polaski@rawle.com (For Cyprus Amax Minerals Company and 12 Imerys Talc America in NJ cases) 13 HAWKINS PARNELL THACKSTON & YOUNG LLP 14 BY: OLIVER BUNDY, ESQ. 455 S. Figueroa, Suite 3200 15 Los Angeles, California 90071-1651 213.486.8043 16 obundy@hptylaw.com (For Elizabeth Arden Inc., Revlon Inc., 17 Bristol-Myers Squibb Company and Yves Saint Laurent America, Inc. in Herford case) 18 19 FOLEY & MANSFIELD BY: M. AMADEA GROSECLOSE, ESQ. 20 300 South Grand Avenue, Suite 2800 Los Angeles, California 90071 21 213.283.2100 mgroseclose@foleymansfield.com 22 (For Unilever United States, Inc. and Conopco, Inc. in Herford case) 23 24 25 1 A P P E A R A N C E S...(continued) 2 Attending via telephone: ORRICK, HERRINGTON & SUTCLIFFE LLP 3 BY: PETER BICKS, ESQ. BY: ANNE MALIK, ESQ. 4 1152 15th Street, N.W. Washington, DC 20005 5 202.339.8458 pbicks@orrick.com 6 amalik@onick.com (For Johnson & Johnson) 7 8 HARRIS BEACH PLLC BY: MATTHEW QUIRIN, ESQ. 9 100 Wall Street New York, NY 10005 10 212.912.3505 mquirin@HamsBeach.com 11 (For GlaxoSmithKline in Teuscher case) 12 COSMICH SIMMONS & BROWN, PLLC 13 BY: LaKEYSHA GREER ISAAC, ESQ. BY: LUCY SAVORGNAN, ESQ. 14 100 Vision Drive, Suite 200 Jackson, Mississippi 39211 15 601.863.2100 lakeysha@cs-law.com 16 lsavorgnan@cs-law.com (For Shulton, Inc., sued individually and as 17 successor to The Shulton Group and/or Shulton, Inc.; The Procter & Gamble Company, 18 sued as successor-in-interest to The Shulton Group and/or Shulton, Inc.; and Wyeth Holdings 19 LLC, f/k/a Wyeth Holdings Corporation, f/k/a American Cyanamid Company, sued individually 20 and as successor-in-interest to The Shulton Gtoup and/or Shulton, Inc.) 21 22 KING & SPALDING LLP BY: JULIA ROMANO, ESQ. 23 633 West Fifth Street, Suite 1700 Los Angeles, California 90071 24 213.443.4365 jromano@kslaw.com 25 (For Johnson & Johnson in Herford case) Page 384 1 A P P E A R A N C E S...(continued) 2 Attending via telephone: MONTGOMERY McCRACKEN WALKER & RHOADS, LLP 3 BY: RONALD E. HURST, ESQ. 123 South Broad Street 4 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19109 215.772.7242 5 rhurst@mmwr.com (For Brenntag Specialties in Teuscher case) 6 7 FOLEY & MANSFIELD BY: SEANAAZAD, ESQ. 8 300 Lakeside Drive, Suite 1900 Oakland, California 94612 9 510.590.9511 sazad@foleymansfield.com 10 (For specially appearing Whittaker Clark & Daniels Inc in Herford case) 11 12 DRINKER BIDDLE & REATH LLP BY: JACK N. FROST, ESQ. 13 600 Campus Drive Florham Park, New Jersey 07932-1047 14 973.549.7338 jack.frost@dbr.coni 15 (For Johnson & Johnson in all but Herford) 16 DENTONS US LLP 17 BY: ERIN CARPENTER, ESQ. 601 S. Figueroa Street, Suite 2500 18 Los Angeles, California 90017-5704 213.243.6112 19 erin.caipenter@dentons.com (For Imerys Talc America, Inc. and 20 Cyprus Amax Minerals Company) 21 ALSO PRESENT TELEPHONICALLY: 22 KAZAN McCLAIN SATTERLEY & GREENWOOD JOSEPH D. SATTERLEY, ESQ. 23 24 DR. DAVID S. EGILMAN 25 VIDEOGRAPHER: LINDA FLEET Page 386 Page 385 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 387 (O n the record at 10:03 am) V ID EO G R A PH ER : W e are on the record. T his is the continued deposition o f John Hopkins. The date today is August 16 and the tim e is 10:03. EXAM INATION: BY M R PANATIER: Q Okay. G ood m orning, sir. A G ood m orning. Q All right. So yesterday w here we left off Johnson & Johnson was sending samples o f their talc to Fred Pooley so he could w ork on a procedure to try to remove the tremolite. D o you recall that? A Y ou did show m e those papers, yes. Q Okay. A ll right. O ther than broad intellectual or scientific curiosity and whether or not they could remove trem olite, can you think o f any other reason why they w ould w ant to be rem oving the trem olite from their talc? A I don't know. It w as obviously a research project that someone decided they would like to look at, but I -- you know , I couldn't com m ent beyond that 3 (Pages 384 - 387) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 388 Page 390 1 on som ething that happened 40-odd years ago. 1 So w e're clear those are Lew in's num bers, and 2 Q It is possible that they w anted the trem olite 2 he lists o ff the numbers: 3 removed because they perceived it to be dangerous? 3 "... 29, 58, 60, 84, 8 7 ,1 3 1 ,1 3 3 ,1 3 4 , 135, 4 A It is possible. 4 136,137 and 138 w ere analyzed for m ineral content. 5 But, again, I cannot speak for som eone's 5 All contained large quantities o f talc, small amounts 6 thought processes from 40-odd years ago. 6 o f carbonates, and m inor amounts o f hematite, quartz 7 Q A ll right. This is Exhibit 67. 7 and diatom aceous earth. Sam ple #84 contained 107 8 (Exhibit 67 m arked for identification) 8 fibers o f trem olite/actinolite per mg". 9 Now , as context, sir, before w e started today 9 D id I read that right? 10 I had you ju st review D r Lew in's report to the FD A 10 A Y ou read that correctly, yes. 11 about the 195 sam ples th at he h a d tested in the early 11 Q Okay. 12 7 0 s an d 7 2 ; do y o u recall that? 12 So let's do a little basic m ath, y o u an d I. 13 A Y ou d id show m e a pu b licatio n by D r L ew in d ated 13 L et m e g o ah ead and g o up to the ... 14 1972 review ing talc samples. 14 A ll right. So he says as of, so we'll put 15 Q Okay. 15 th at date, 12.21.73. 16 One o f those sam ples w as sam ple 84. T hat was 16 This is the FD A and they find in Johnson & 17 Johnson & Jo h n so n S how er to S how er; correct? 17 Johnson S how er to S how er --th ey find 107 fibers o f 18 A That was, yes. 18 trem olite p e r m illigram . 19 Q Okay. 19 Is that correct? 20 W hat I've handed you now is, you can see this 20 A T hat is D r Lew in's sum m ary, yes. 21 is a F D A publication. Y ou can see u n d e r D escription o f 21 Q That's not D r Lew in's sum m ary. This is the 22 the W ork, it says: 22 FD A 's re-exam ination o f Lew in's samples. 23 "The 200 com m ercial cosm etic talc samples 23 D o you understand that? 24 evaluated by D r Lewin w ill be tested for asbestos by 24 A Okay. That's not clear from here. 25 refractory optical microscopy". 25 Q Okay. Page 389 Page 391 1 Do you see that on the first page? 1 A So w ho actually did the examination? 2 A Y es, that's w hat it says. 2 Q Okay. 3 Q A nd if you turn to, let's see, the first 3 Y ou can see here on the previous page at the 4 flag --there should b e a flag on there ... 4 bottom , Project M anager's signature; right? 5 A Yes. 5 A Yeah. 6 Q Y ou can see - and I'm sorry, actually, go back 6 Q A nd that's John Stuart, but here Ronald Yates 7 one page for som e context. There you go. 7 signed it; correct? 8 Y ou can see at the bottom it's dated 1.3.74; 8 A Okay, yeah. 9 right? 9 Q Okay? 10 A Yes. 10 A Yeah. 11 Q A nd Project - Program M anager's signature is 11 Q A nd if you turn to the page that is flagged: 12 H einz E ierm ann, w h o w e k now to b e w ith the D ivision ol 12 "Exam ination o f talc samples by optical 13 C osm etics in the FD A ; correct? 13 m icroscopy according to the F ederal R e g is te r ... is 14 A Correct, yes. 14 proceeding". 15 Q A ll right. 15 A Yeah. 16 A nd then at the top the project title is 16 Q This is in 1973 and 7 4 ; correct? 17 A sbestos a n d O ther C ontam inants in T alcs; right? 17 A Correct, yes. 18 A Yes. 18 Q Lew in has already done his testing. 19 Q Okay. 19 Y ou're aw are o f that; correct? 20 I f you turn the page, you can see I've 20 A Yeah, sure. 21 h ig hlighted there that, an d yo u can see a t the top: 21 Q Okay, and they're using Lew in's identification 22 "Exam ination o f talc sam ples by optical 22 numbers; right? 23 m icroscopy according to the m ethod published in the 23 A Oh, got you. Okay. 24 F ederal R e g is te r ... is proceeding. A s o f 12/21/73, 24 Q So they're evaluating Lew in's report; right? 25 sam ples (Lew in's id en tificatio n )..." 25 A Okay. 4 (Pages 388 - 391) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 392 Page 394 1 Q A nd L ew in's sam ples. 1 Q Okay. 2 A nd w hat the FDA finds is 107 fibers o f 2 So this is Pooley's report. 3 trem olite per m illigram ; right? 3 Now, was this one o f the documents that you 4 A That's w hat it says. 4 reviewed in your review o f the Johnson & Johnson 5 Q Okay. 5 documents? 6 Now , how many m illigram s are there in a gram? 6 A I've not seen this particular one, no. 7 A A thousand. 7 Q All right. Okay. 8 Q One thousand. So if we w ant to know how many 8 A It's the first tim e I've seen it. 9 fibers the FD A found per gram o f Johnson & Johnson's 9 Q A ll right. 10 Show er to Show er, w e ju s t m ultiply 107 b y a thousand; 10 So second sentence: 11 right? 11 "The x-ray spectra for Verm ont and Italian 12 A M m m hm m , yes. 12 pow der are show n in F igs 1 and 2. T he x-ray spectra 13 Q A n d th a t w o u ld give u s 107,000 trem olite fibers 13 for chlorites fro m V erm ont and the Italian m ine are 14 per gram; correct? 14 show n in Figs. 3 and 4, w hile the spectra for the 15 A W ell, it says trem olite/actinolite. 15 trem olite fo u n d in the Italian m ine and the actinolite 16 Q Okay. Trem olite/actinolite. That's fair, and 16 found in the V erm ont m ine are show n by Figs. 5 and 6". 17 I'll w rite "/actinolite" p e r gram . 17 R ig h t? 18 Okay. So you can set that aside. 18 A Y es, that's w hat it says. 19 The next Exhibit will be Exhibit 68. 19 Q Right. 20 (Exhibit 68 m arked for identification) 20 So this is Pooley. N ow , he's been your 21 L et m e take that one back, I'm sorry, because 21 consultant for a few years b y now; right? 22 I divided these into two. Let me give you a new one. 22 A Yeah, certainly two years. 23 It's the full copy. 23 Q Okay. 24 A ll right. Here you go, sir. Sorry. 24 So this one is Septem ber - 1just want to 25 A Thank you. 25 m ake sure I have the rig h t date. W e h ad N ovem ber 19, Page 393 Page 395 1 Q A ll right. 1 1973. 2 So this one if you turn - you actually have 2 B ut I think if you turn to the page m arked 3 to turn to the last page to see w hat this is, where you 3 8244, go ahead and do that so w e get our dates right. 4 see the Jo h n so n & Johnson, an d I'm sorry, tu rn to the 4 This specific part o f the report looks like 5 page at the bottom m arked 8248. 5 Septem ber 12, '73, doesn't it? 6 A It stops at 44. 6 A It does, yes. 7 Q It m ight be - go a little bit closer to the 7 Q Okay. So I'm going to put both those dates 8 front. 8 because he's supplied both o f these, b ut w e'll ju st put 9 A Okay, yes. 9 them both here for completeness. 10 Q G ot it? Okay. 10 A nd he says he did x-ray spectra. Now, 11 So y o u can see this is dated N ovem ber 19, 11 that's X R D ; right? 12 1973; right? 12 A Yes. 13 A Yes. 13 Q That's looking for the m ineral; right? 14 Q A nd its subject is Pooley's Response to the 14 A Yeah. 15 P ro p o sed F D A O ptical M eth o d fo r D etection o f A sbestos 15 Q Okay. 16 in Talc; right? 16 So Pooley, XRD, he reports trem olite in the 17 A That's the title, yes. 17 Italian m ine; right? 18 Q Okay. 19 N ow w e can go to the page, if you will, 18 A Yes. 19 Q A nd he reports actinolite in the V erm ont mine; 20 marked 8235. 20 right? 21 A Okay. 21 Is that correct? 22 Q A ll right. 22 A Y eah, I haven't actually read this report, so 23 That's the one that at the top says 1-2; 24 right? 23 it w ill take a w hile to confirm that. 24 Q N ow , you've had access to these docum ents 25 A Yes. 25 f o r - 5 (Pages 392 - 395) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 396 1 A Y eah, I've not seen this particular one. 1 "A reduction in the total acid soluble Page 398 2 Q Right. 2 m aterials w as attributable to the new reagent systems. 3 I f there's som ething else you need to review, 3 The m agnitude o f the reduction was 23% for n-butanol 4 feel free to --if we need to go o ff the record to do 4 and 28 per cent for n-butanol-citric a c i d ..." 5 so, then ju st let us know. 5 R ig h t? 6 M S FROST: Yeah, w hy don't w e do that? Go 6 A Yes. 7 o ff for a few minutes. 7 Q N ow n-butanol and n-butanol citric acid are the 8 T H E W ITNESS: O ne m inute, yeah. Just give m e 8 reagents they're talking about? 9 30 seconds, yeah. 9 A They are, yes. 10 M R PA N A TIER: That's fine. 10 Q Okay. 11 (O ff the record at 10:13 am) 11 N ow , let's go to num ber 4. 12 (O n the record at 10:15 am) 12 A Okay. 13 B Y M R PA N A T IE R : 13 Q N um ber 4 said: 14 Q So you can set that aside. 14 "Chrysotile fiber suppression w as indicated 15 W hat is a reagent? 15 w hile u s i n g ... n-butanol citric acid system ". 16 A R eagent is a --it's a term used by a scientist 16 Right? 17 th at is a ch em ical o r a substance w h ich is m ix ed w ith 17 A That's w hat it says. 18 an other substance to form a reaction. 18 Q Okay. 19 B Y M R PA N A T IE R : 19 So we can get our bearings here, you can see 20 Q Okay. A ll right. 20 the date under Introduction and it says: 21 So that's --this docum ent is --that's 21 "T he p lan t trial w as c o n d u c te d ... January 22 Exhibit 69. 22 29,1974". 23 (Exhibit 69 m arked for identification) 23 C o rrect? 24 A nd this one is entitled -- it says 24 A Correct, yes. 25 CONFIDENTIAL in big, block letters, and it says New 25 Q This is a system --w e'll ju st call it Page 397 Page 399 1 Reagent System s -- Plant Trial at W indsor M inerals Inc; 1 chrysotile fiber suppression, because that's w hat they 2 correct? 2 call it. 3 A Yes. 3 A nd what does "suppression" mean? 4 Q A ll right. 4 A Reduction. C ould even be removal. 5 And if we go to the introduction right 5 Q Okay. 6 inside, here's w hat it says: 6 So W indsor M inerals, part o f Johnson & 7 "W indsor M in e ra ls..." 7 Johnson, is studying a w ay to decrease or remove 8 N ow , that's the com pany that Johnson & 8 chrysotile; correct? 9 Johnson ow ned to process the V erm ont talc; correct? 9 A Correct. 10 A Correct, yes. 10 Q Y ou don't have to decrease or rem ove som ething 11 Q A ll right. 11 i f it's n o t present; correct? 12 "W indsor M inerals has been actively engaged 12 A I think it's easy to take this out o f context. 13 in a froth flotation research pro g ram for the p a st year 13 This w as -- this whole flotation experiment 14 and a half. This program has developed tw o flotation 14 w as a w ay o f ensuring that the talc used w as the purest 15 reagent system s w h ich o ffer substantial advantages to 15 available. W h eth er or n o t chrysotile w as there is -- 16 the W indsor flotation process from an econom ic, purity 16 it w as ju st one exam ple. 17 an d po tential h ealth hazard po in t o f view ". 17 In fact, I rem em ber having read this report 18 D id I read that right? 18 earlier. T o do this experim ent, they --I'm pretty 19 A You did, yes. 19 sure they h ad to deliberately add 1 or 2 per cent o f 20 Q Okay. 20 talc --to the talc o f chrysotile. 21 If you go down to Conclusions, do you see 21 But whether it was there originally is not 22 that? 22 clear from this. 23 A Yes. 24 Q A ll right. T hey have several very scientific 23 Q Okay. 24 A It was an experiment to see what m ight happen 25 sounding conclusions. First one is: 25 if you did X, Y or Z. 6 (Pages 396 - 399) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 400 Page 402 1 Q Okay. 1 Q Johnson & Johnson is saying there is a need to 2 A nd I'll ask you about that, b ut for w hat 2 keep the levels o f these contam inants extremely low and 3 reason w ould they want to study the suppression o f 3 out o f the finished product; correct? 4 chrysotile if they never had an issue with chrysotile 4 A T hat is w hat it says. 5 in the m ine? 5 Q A nd these contam inants is included chrysotile 6 A Again, it was just part o f an experiment. 6 asbestos; right? They say that? 7 Scientists do these sort o f experiments all 7 A They say that, yes. 8 the tim e. L et's try this, let's try that. It doesn't 8 Q Okay. 9 m ean there was chrysotile present. It could well be a 9 "The use o f these systems is strongly urged 10 case of: w hat if it were present, w ould this rem ove it? 10 b y this w riter, to provide the protection against w hat 11 Scientists often w ork on what are called 11 are currently considered to be m aterials presenting a 12 hypotheses. It's a basic ten e t o f science. Y ou com e 12 severe health hazard and are potentially present in all 13 u p w ith a hypothesis: w h a t i f it w ere present; w o u ld 13 talc ores in use a t th is tim e". 14 this rem ove it? 14 D id I read that right? 15 It's the kind o f experim ent that w ould be 15 A Y ou did. 16 done. I c an see w h y it w a s done. 16 Q Okay. 17 Q Okay. 17 A gain, they're referring to chrysotile as 18 W ell, let's see w hat they say about it; okay? 18 w ell as o th er m inerals; correct? 19 A Sure. 19 A A nd that's in their reading o f chrysotile in 20 Q If you turn to the page m arked 5 at the bottom , 20 M ay, 1974, yes. 21 halfw ay dow n it says: 21 Q Okay, and chrysotile is asbestos? 22 "A sbestiform analyses w ere perfo rm ed b y 22 A It is. 23 W alter C M cC rone A s so c ia tes..." 23 Q Okay. 24 W e've talked about W alter M cCrone Associates; 24 "In closing, based on W indsor's know ledge o f 25 right? 25 the physical chem istry o f talc, and upon the results o f Page 401 Page 403 1 A Correct. 1 all w ork perform ed to date, it is our strong belief 2 Q It's a consultant for Johnson & Johnson during 2 that the use o f these new reagent systems will not 3 this tim e; correct? 3 alter the salient consum er properties o f the raw 4 A Correct. 4 material supplied or the finished baby powder sold 5 Q "... by m eans o f transm ission electron 5 under the Johnson and Johnson name". 6 m icroscopy and electron diffraction techniques. Their 6 In other words, it's not going to hurt the 7 report is found in attachm ent 'A'. A n abstract o f 7 properties that the consum ers like; right? 8 their findings is given in Table 15. Q uantitative 8 A Correct. 9 treatm ent o f these results is questionable due to the 9 Q Okay. 10 extrem ely lo w chrysotile levels present, h o w ever 10 B ut it can serve to low er som e o f these 11 d epression o f chrysotile th ro u g h the u se o f citric acid 11 m inerals, including chrysotile asbestos? 12 in com bination w ith n-butanol is indicated". 12 A If they were present in the first place, yes. 13 So w hat they're saying is w e can keep 13 Q W ell, the w riter here, and this is Vernon 14 chrysotile levels further dow n if w e add in citric acid 14 Z eitz, and he w as the m anager at W indsor M inerals; 15 w ith n-butanol; right? 15 right? 16 A That's w hat it says in the report. 16 A He was the factory m anager, yes. 17 Q G o dow n to sum m ary and Rem arks below: 17 Q Okay. 18 "The use o f citric acid in the depression o f 18 H e says that: 19 chrysotile asbestos an d o th er m ineral species has been 19 "The use o f these systems is strongly urged 20 developed at W indsor M inerals in response to the 20 to provide against what are currently considered to be 21 p o tential n e ed fo r a m eans to exclude extrem ely low 21 m aterials presenting a severe health hazard and are 22 levels o f these contam inants from the finished product 22 potentially present in all talc ores in use at this 23 o f the beneficiation process". 23 time". 24 D id I read that right? 24 R ig h t? 25 A Y ou read that correctly, yes. 25 A H e's saying they are potentially present, yes. 7 (Pages 400 - 403) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 404 Page 406 1 Q W ell, let's lo o k a t th eir resu lts here. 1 A Correct. 2 So if you turn, please, sir, to 5025 at the 2 Q And then for the n-butanol citric acid, they 3 bottom , do you see that? 3 say "chrysotile in ore and chrysotile in product"; 4 A Ido,yes. 4 right? 5 Q Am phibole Content o f Reagent Trial Process 5 A That's what it says. 6 Samples; right? 6 Q They count eight fibers in the ore and one 7 A Yes. 7 fiber in the product; right? 8 Q A nd you can see the ore has 3,000 parts per 8 A That's what it says. 9 m illion o f amphibole; right? 9 Q Suggesting that the citric acid butanol reagent 10 A Yes. 10 reduces chrysotile if used; true? 11 Q A nd then the product has 100 to 200 parts per 11 A It's what it would imply, yes. 12 m illion am phibole; right? 12 Q So let's go on to --let's see ... 13 A Yes. 13 Can I see your Exhibit real fast, just to 14 Q That's for A. That's the U ltraw et DS. That's 14 make sure we're looking at the same thing? 15 th eir typical flotation; right? 15 Yes, okay. 16 A Yes. 16 So there's an attachment B, and it says 17 Q Then B is the n-butanol, and for B they have 17 Asbestiform Depression Through the Use of New Flotation 18 3,000 parts p e r m illion fo r am phibole to start, a n d in 18 Reagent Systems; right? 19 th e p ro d u ct after the float, 100 to 20 0 am phibole parts 19 A Yes. 20 per m illion; correct? 20 Q Okay. 21 A Yes. 21 A Separate report. 22 Q A nd then C is n-butanol plus citric acid, and 22 Q Okay. 23 that is 3,000 to start and 100 to 200 parts per m illion 23 Now, this is what I think you might be 24 in the product; right? 24 talking about when you say sometimes they'll spike a 25 A O f amphibole. 25 sample to then check what happens with whatever they Page 405 Page 407 1 Q Right. 1 spiked it with; right? 2 So w hat this is showing is that the reagents 2 A Yes. 3 do tend to reduce if they're used the am ount o f 3 Q So som etim es to experiment you m ight spike a 4 amphibole from the ore to the product; right? 4 sample w ith anthophyllite, chrysotile, tremolite; 5 A They do, yes. 5 right? 6 Q Okay. 6 A Yes. 7 So turn, please, if you will, to 5031. 7 Q A nd then see w hat happens throughout the 8 H ave you found that? 8 flotation? 9 A Yes. 9 A Yes. 10 Q Okay. 10 Q Okay. So let's see w hat they say here. 11 It says Asbestiform Fiber Counts by W alter C 11 U nder Introduction, they say: 12 M cC rone A ssociates, a n d it has designations and, again, 12 "A study was perform ed at W indsor M inerals to 13 yo u have U ltraw et, butanol a n d n-butanol w ith citric 13 qu an tify the effectiveness o f tw o new flotation reagent 14 acid; correct? 14 system s in the depression o f asbestiform m inerals in 15 A Correct. 15 the flotation process". 16 Q Okay. 16 Okay? 17 U nder Fiber identification, so w e're not 17 A Yeah. 18 talking ab o u t particles; it says F ib er identification; 18 Q Now, you and I have already established 19 right? 19 asbestiform m eans asbestos; correct? 20 A It does. 20 A No. 21 Q For U, w hich is the Ultraw et, product, they 21 Q Okay. I thought w e'd established that. 22 find -- they say "probably chrysotile"; correct? 22 I f you have trem olite, anthophyllite or 23 A Correct. 23 actinolite and it is asbestiform , it's asbestos? 24 Q For the ore for A, they say "probably 24 A N ot --not necessarily, no. N o. That's not m y 25 chrysotile"; right? 25 understanding o f it. It's not m y understanding. 8 (Pages 404 - 407) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 408 Page 410 1 Q Okay. 1 does occur as a rare m ineral in the Ham m ondsville ore; 2 A sbestiform m eans it is the form o f asbestos; 2 correct? 3 right? 3 A It m ay well occur in the m ine, but not 4 A I f it's defined by the geologist as asbestos, 4 necessarily in the talc part o f the m ine. That's not 5 it would be asbestos, yes. 5 clear from here. 6 Q A ll right. 6 It says that Hammondsville ore body, not 7 W e talked about how Johnson & Johnson defined 7 necessarily the w hole talc mine. 8 asbestos yesterday; right? 8 Q Okay. So -- 9 A Yes. 9 A The m ine is a big operation. 10 Q The fibrous forms -- 10 Q W ell, they don't say talc m ine. They say the 11 A Okay. 11 ore body? 12 Q --o f the different minerals. 12 A Yes. 13 A Yes. 13 Q O re body is the subset o f the m ine; correct? 14 Q Right? 14 A It could be, but it could also be where the 15 A Yes. 15 m iners avoid those non-talc areas. 16 Q A t 3:1 aspect ratio w ith parallel sides? 16 Q O ther than talc ore, w hat other ores was 17 A That was in the 1995. 17 Johnson & Johnson m ining out o f V erm ont? 18 Q Right. The aspect ratio? 18 A They were not mining other ores, but that 19 A Yes, yes. 19 phraseology, "the H am m ondsville ore body", could 20 Q A nd that aspect ratio w as never shorter than 20 actually include areas around the talc ore that could 21 that. W e established that; correct? 21 be associated. 22 A Yes. 22 Q Okay. 23 Q A nd then in the 1970s they defined asbestos as 23 A So I'm trying to separate those tw o out. 24 the fibrous form s o f the different m inerals; right? 24 Q W ell, let's ju st use the w ords they use. 25 A Yes. 25 A Okay. Page 409 Page 411 1 Q Okay. 1 Q T hey say in the ore body -- 2 So under Conclusions: 2 A Yes. 3 "A com bination o f n-butyl alcohol as a 3 Q --fibrous anthophyllite does occur as a rare 4 ffother along with citric acid as a depressive agent 4 m ineral; correct? 5 proved to be 20 tim es as effective as U ltraw et DS 5 A That's w hat it states. 6 suppressing asbestiform s in the final product". 6 Q Okay. 7 R ig h t? 7 A Yeah. 8 A Yes. 8 Q So this is still 1974. 9 Q Okay. 9 Fibrous - I'm ju st going to abbreviate 10 Now, go under experimental. 10 anthophyllite A N TH - occurs as a rare m ineral in the 11 It says: 11 H am m ondsville ore body. 12 "G round ore from the H am m ondsville m ine w as 12 That's accurate. T hat is w hat they say; 13 'd o p e d '..." 13 right? 14 W hich m eans spiked; right? 14 A That's w hat the author is stating, yes. 15 A Yes. 15 Q A ll right. 16 Q They added? 16 Go ahead and go to the last page, please, 17 A They deliberately added, yes. 17 sir. It's the one that at the bottom is m arked num ber 18 Q "... 1.0% by w eight o f the fibrous form o f 18 5. 19 anthophyllite w hich occurs as a rare m ineral in the 19 Okay. 20 Ham mondsville ore body". 20 "Although the data w as accumulated for the 21 D id I read that right? 21 specific m ineral species fibrous anthophyllite, the 22 A Y ou did, yes. 22 same results can be predicted for other fibrous 23 Q Okay. 23 amphibole m inerals and chrysotile asbestos found in 24 So they doped the sam ple for purposes o f 24 association with the Hammondsville ore body whose 25 these tests w ith fibrous anthophyllite, w hich they say 25 surfaces expose a substantial concentration o f 9 (Pages 408-411) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 412 Page 414 1 m agnesium and hydroxl groups as reactive sites". 1 types o f percentages with a light m icroscope, could 2 D id I read that right? 2 you? 3 A You did, yes. 3 A No, no. 4 Q So here again they're saying the chrysotile 4 Q A nd you certainly couldn't do it w ith X RD ? 5 asbestos is also found in association with the 5 A No. 6 H am m ondsville ore body; correct? 6 Q X R D --this is, w hat, a thousand tim es at least 7 A T hey used the w ord "association", yes. 7 or ten thousand tim es m ore powerful than XRD? 8 Q Okay. 8 A It is, yes. 9 I'm ju st going to use a different color 9 Q Right. 10 because that's a lot o f red. 10 XRD, w e talked generally, is good to about 11 Okay. So I just wrote chrysotile is found in 11 h a lf a p e r cent? 12 association w ith the H am m ondsville ore body, a n d that's 12 A Yeah. 13 accurate acco rd in g to w h at h e w rote; right? 13 Q This is looking far low er than that, isn't it? 14 A That's w hat he w rote, yes. 14 A It is indeed, yes. 15 Q Okay. 15 Q Okay. 16 Ham mondsville was the m ine w here Johnson & 16 So I'm ju st going to w rite sam ple S5-888. 17 Johnson w as gettin g its talc for b ab y pow der, S how er to 17 N ow , chrysotile, again, if they find that, 18 S how er a n d m ed icated po w d e r a t th is tim e; right? 18 that's asbestos; right? 19 A Correct. 19 A If they find that, that would be asbestos, yes. 20 Q In fact, for use in the US, all o f its talc was 20 Q Okay. 21 com ing from Verm ont at this time; right? 21 The next Exhibit will be 71. 22 A In '74, yes. 22 (Exhibit 71 m arked for identification) 23 Q A nd Ham m ondsville is Verm ont; right? 23 M S FRAZIER: T hat greater than should be a 24 A It is, yes. 24 less than. 25 Q Okay. 25 M R PANATIER: Oh, yeah. Page 413 Page 415 1 Next, this w ill be exhibit 70. 1 If you guys see any other errors, please 2 (Exhibit 70 m arked for identification) 2 point them out. I appreciate that. 3 This is from W alter M cCrone to D r R olle at 3 Okay. 71. 4 J&J; right? 4 Q All right, sir. This is a m em o from 5 A Y eah, that's w hat it reads. 5 February 28,1974, and the subject is a M eeting 6 Q Okay, and they analyzed looks like three 6 Concerning N -Butanol-Citric acid Flotation Agent, which 7 different sam ples; correct? 7 w e have talked about from that chrysotile suppression 8 A Yes. 8 document; right? 9 Q A nd it says: 9 A Yes. 10 "W e have analysed -- w e have completed the 10 Q Okay. 11 analysis o f y o u r sam ples S 5-888 ..." a n d th en a couple 11 A nd it says: 12 o f others. 12 "A m eeting was called by Research, 13 B ut the results are: 13 F ebruary 22, to discuss w ith M r M iller o f W indsor 14 "W e found chrysotile only in sample S5-888, 14 M inerals his proposal for evaluating V erm ont talc, 15 [and] T -280 a n d trem olite in n eith er o f the sam ples". 15 treated w ith the n-butanol citric acid system . M essrs 16 R ig h t? 16 C allum and Dettre w ere unable to attend and 17 A That's w hat it reads, yes. 17 consequently M essrs M arks, Sem ple and Lee m et w ith 18 Q So they found chrysotile in one and they say 18 M r M iller". 19 on -- the am o u n t presen t is a t less than 19 N ow , M arks, Sem ple and Lee, those are all J&J 20 .0005 per cent; right? 20 people; right? 21 A Yes. 21 A Correct. 22 Q Now, that tells you that they are looking with 22 Q Okay. 23 an electron microscope; correct? 23 Technically, M r M iller is, too; right? 24 A A t least, yes. 24 A Yes. 25 Q O kay, because you couldn't determ ine those 25 Q Okay. 10 (Pages 4 1 2 - 4 1 5 ) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 416 Page 418 1 "M r R oger M iller presented both the technical 1 have done 45 years ago. 2 and econom ic rationales for the n-butanol-citric acid 2 Q A nd, you know , I don't w ant you to do that. I 3 approach highlighting the neutrality o f the resulting 3 want you to answer as Johnson & Johnson as a matter of 4 talc and the greater degree o f chrysotile separation". 4 company policy. 5 R ight, so again he's advocating the use o f 5 As a m atter o f policy, if there were ever a 6 this because o f the ability to rem ove chrysotile; 6 dangerous agent such as asbestos present in a raw 7 correct? 7 m aterial such as talc and Johnson & Johnson had a way 8 A That's w hat he is w ritin g -- 8 to get rid o f it or substantially reduce it, that w ould 9 Q Okay. 9 be som ething Johnson & Johnson w ould do? 10 A - - i n 7 4 ,yes. 10 A T hat w ould be good policy, yes. 11 Q Sure. 11 Q Okay. A ll right. 12 Skip dow n to the next highlight: 12 H ere's Exhibit 72. 13 "It w as stressed that if M arketing were to 13 (Exhibit 72 m arked for identification) 14 feel the necessity for product tests, this m ust be 14 A ll right. April 4,1974. N otes on a Visit 15 initiated im m ediately". 15 to the D en v er A rea, a n d th is is -- looks like it is 16 N ow , at Johnson & Johnson w as w hether o r not 16 authored b y B ill A shton; right? 17 products w ere teste d dictated b y m arketing? 17 A Yes. 18 A M arketing sell a product, and if the consum er 18 Q It looks like he --w hat he copies M r Lee on 19 found th e p ro d u ct n o t to h e r liking, th en m arketing 19 the front? 20 w ould have a problem. 20 A Yes. 21 So it's not unusual if you've got a small 21 Q Okay. 22 change in a product to have it evaluated with 22 So he says M arch 25 he m et with the Colorado 23 consumers. 23 School o f M ines Research Institute with J Krause, and 24 Q Okay. 24 that's Jerom e K rause; right? 25 Now, based on the test w e saw, it was the 25 A Yes, I think so. Page 417 Page 419 1 n-butanol plus citric acid w hich had the highest 1 Q A nd D r T M ow att, or M owatt. 2 reduction o f chrysotile; correct? 2 W hat he w rites is: 3 A Correct. 3 "Inspected and authorized assem bly o f high 4 Q A ll right. 4 pressure assem bly and following experiments. 5 "It was the consensus o f the m eeting that 5 1. E stab lish destruction o f trem olite in 6 because o f the econom ic savings, the additional product 6 presence o f V erm ont talc". 7 benefits and the im proved processing assurance, this 7 So this is --w e've seen it with Pooley where 8 developm ent should be pushed towards a successful 8 they've sent sam ples to Pooley to ask him to study the 9 com pletion as quickly as possible". 9 removal o f trem olite; right? 10 So it looks like as o f this m em o they are 10 A Yes. 11 g oing to ad o p t the citric acid n-butanol flotation 11 Q A nd this is Ashton saying they were doing an 12 agent; right? 12 ex p erim en t to d estro y trem olite in V erm ont talc; right? 13 A That's --that's an im pression, yes. 13 A T hat looks like an experiment, yes. 14 Q W ell, do you agree w ith that? 14 Q Again, if it's not there, you don't have to 15 A That's an im pression, yes. 15 destro y it; right? 16 Q A ll right. Y ou can set that aside. 16 A That's hypothetical. These R& D guys often do 17 This will be 72. 17 experim ents -- 18 (Exhibit 72 m arked for identification) 18 Q W ell, they don't - 19 A nd by the way, if Johnson & Johnson had 19 A --ju s t to --ju s t to, y o u know , for 20 asbestos in the ore that w as going into the flotation 20 hypothetical reasons. 21 and th ey h a d a w ay to red u ce it, o f course Jo h n so n & 21 So I w ouldn't w ant to com m ent on w hat their 22 Johnson w ould advocate doing that; right? 22 thought processes were in 1974. 23 A Hypothetically, yes. 23 Q So w e - 24 Q Okay. 24 A B ut they w ere doing an experiment. 25 A A gain, I can't speak for w hat som eone m ight 25 Q A nd I'm sorry to talk over you. Sorry. 11 (Pages 4 1 6 - 4 1 9 ) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 420 Page 422 1 W e're n o t g o in g to sp ecu late. W e're ju st 1 Q Okay. 2 going to look at w hat they w rote then. 2 A nd here w e have D raft I, you could see; 3 A Yeah. 3 right? And then on the back you have a draft statement 4 Q S o n u m b e r 1: 4 prepared for use at stockholders annual m eeting on 5 "E stablish destruction o f trem olite in 5 April 9,1974; right? 6 presence o f V erm ont talc". 6 A Yeah. 7 N o w , th ey 're n o t say in g V e rm o n t talc w e are 7 Q Okay. 8 spiking fo r som e reason; right? 8 So it looks like w e have D raft I, w hich is 9 A N o , th ey 're saying: 9 the tw o page docum ent on the front, and then w e have 10 " E sta b lish d e s tru c tio n in [th e] p re se n c e o f 10 w hat looks like the final statem ent. It says it's not 11 V e r m o n t ta lc " . 11 y e t released; right? 12 Q Okay. 12 A That's w hat it says. 13 A A n experim ent. 13 Q Okay. S o th atju stg iv esu san id eao fth e 14 Q N um ber 2: 14 tim ing. T his is around A pril 9 o f '74. 15 "E stablish destruction o f chrysotile in 15 A nd in the draft it says Asbestos in Talc, 16 presence o f V erm ont talc". 16 and it says: 17 R ight? 17 "The talc used to m ake Johnson & Johnson 18 A A g ain , th at's ag ain an ex p erim en t, yes. 18 p o w ders is free o f h azardous asbestos fibers". 19 Q " P re s e n c e " m e a n s s o m e th in g is th ere ; rig h t? 19 Now, are there a type o f asbestos fibers that 20 A Yes. 20 are not hazardous, according to Johnson & Johnson? 21 Q Okay. 21 A I'm not aw are o f that. 22 A Yes. 22 Q Okay. 23 Q N um ber 3: 23 N ow , there's a h an dw riting there; right? 24 "D eterm ine w hether or no t fibrous structure 24 A Yes. 25 is retained or destroyed in above". 25 Q Okay. Page 421 Page 423 1 R ig h t? 1 Now , I'm going to try and translate that for 2 A T hat was an experiment, yes. 2 you. 3 Q So they're studying w hether or not the fibrous 3 A Thank you. 4 structure o f trem olite and chrysotile in V erm ont talc 4 Q Okay, and you tell m e if you disagree with 5 is destroyed by this experim ent; right? 5 this. 6 A That's w hat they're studying, yes. 6 H ere's the handw riting: 7 Q Okay. 7 "Does our trem olite fill into the definition 8 Then he says: 8 o f sm all particles by Stanton and W agner reports?" 9 "The above to be run on low key up to point 9 Does it look like I read that right? 10 w here w e can file patent protection". 10 A Y eah. I think that's right. I think that's 11 R ig h t? 11 w h at it reads. 12 A Yes. 12 Q Okay. 13 Q L ow keep m eans keep it on the down low, so to 13 A S om eone's scribbled that w ith a pencil. 14 speak? 14 Q You whoever is editing this, you can see this 15 A Yes. 15 person has m ade o ther edits; right? 16 Q Okay. N ext page. 16 A Yeah. 17 You know w hat? W e don't even have to get 17 Q So this person actually refers to trem olite as 18 into that. 18 "our trem olite"; right? 19 A ll right. Y ou can set that aside, sir. 19 A Y eah, although I don't know w ho the author is, 20 This next one w ill be Exhibit 73. 20 but yeah. 21 (Exhibit 73 m arked for identification) 21 Q Okay. 22 Okay. So Johnson & Johnson routinely put out 22 A nd I'm sure in looking through these 23 PR statements with regard to all its products, not just 23 docum ents, you've seen that Bill A shton, N ashed, G avin 24 talc; right? 24 Hildick-Sm ith, George Lee and others routinely are 25 A Yes. 25 editing statem ents like this; right? 12 (Pages 420 - 423) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 424 Page 426 1 A Yeah, it's norm al in any organization -- 1 Go ahead and turn, if you will, please, sir, 2 Q Right. 2 to the page m arked 2670. 3 A --to share your first thoughts with your 3 There should be a highlight there. Do you 4 colleagues. 4 see that? 5 Q Okay. 5 A I do, yes. 6 A nd here he's asking about: 6 Q Okay. 7 "Does our trem olite fill into the definition 7 Now , this is A pril 24, '74, and they looked 8 o f small particles by Stanton and W agner reports". 8 at 38 sam ples and they find asbestos in two; correct? 9 R ig h t? 9 A t a certain detection limit; right? 10 A Yeah. 10 A Yeah. 11 Q Okay. Y ou can set that aside. 11 Q So they have a detection lim it o f .0005 per 12 N ow , do you know w hat Stanton report he's 12 cent and at that detection lim it they find chrysotile 13 referring to? 13 a t .007 an d .001; is th at correct? 14 A d o n 't,n o . 14 A Correct. That's w hat they've written, yes. 15 Q D o es Joh n so n & Johnson k n o w w h a t the Stanton 15 Q A nd they found trem olite at .0001; right? 16 hypothesis is? 16 A Yes. 17 A I don't know w hat the Stanton hypothesis is, 17 Q Okay. 18 no. 18 A nd that's fibrous trem olite; correct? 19 Q Okay. 19 A That's w hat they write, yes. 20 A Or was. 20 Q So chrysotile is asbestos. So they found 21 Q Right. N ext Exhibit. This w ill be 74. 21 asbestos in the talc sam ples from the A rgonaut ore 22 (Exhibit 74 m arked for identification) 22 body; correct? 23 H ere you are, sir. A nother report to W indsor 23 A That's w hat they've written, they found 24 from M cCrone; right? 24 chrysotile, yes. 25 A Yeah. 25 Q Okay. Page 425 Page 427 1 Q This is entitled Exam ination o f Talc Samples, 1 And w hat they say at the end o f that 2 the A rgonaut Ore Body; right? 2 paragraph is they say that: 3 A Yes. 3 "The levels o f chrysotile observed in the two 4 Q Okay. 4 high sam ples is only an order o f m agnitude above this 5 So these are talc samples from Argonaut; 5 and would presum ably be reduced considerably by your 6 correct? 6 beneficiating process". 7 A Correct, yes. 7 R ig h t? 8 Q Now, A rgonaut was one o f the other m ines that 8 A Yeah, that's w hat they've written, yes. 9 ultim ately Johnson & Johnson pulled talc from; correct? 9 Q Now, Johnson & Johnson acknowledges that their 10 A They did, yes. 10 flotation, their beneficiation processes w ere never 11 M R GAFFREY: Can we get a date on that? 11 able to rem o v e all asbestiform o r asbestos to the 12 M R PA N A TIE R : Y eah, I'm sorry. The date is 12 extent it w as present; correct? 13 A pril 24, '74. O kay? 13 A Correct. 14 Q Y ou could see from the Sum m ary inside: 14 Q A ll right. Sir, you can see that aside. 15 "An intensive exam ination has been m ade by 15 Just for clarification up here, I'm going to 16 x-ray diffraction and electron m icroscopy o f 38 core 16 w rite that this is A rgonaut talc sam ples. A rgonaut. 17 sam ples taken from a n e w ore b o d y w hich W indsor 17 This next Exhibit w ill be 75. 18 M inerals ... are contem plating exploiting". 18 (Exhibit 75 m arked for identification) 19 R ig h t? 19 There you go, sir. 20 A Yeah. 20 July 8,1974, M cCrone to Johnson & Johnson; 21 Q So w e know that, as o f '74, A rgonaut isn't yet 21 correct? 22 live in term s o f th ey 're n o t m in in g it y e t for purposes 22 A Yes. 23 o f the pro ducts; right. 23 Q A ll right. 24 A Correct. 24 A nd w hat they say here is: 25 Q Okay. 25 "W e have analyzed 21 sam ples o f talc to 13 (Pages 424 - 427) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 428 Page 430 1 determine the content o f asbestiform m aterials in those 1 So in the production run samples -- this is 2 samples". 2 dated July 8, '74 -- they find in one, two, three, four 3 R ig h t? 3 five --they find asbestos in five production run 4 A Yes. 4 samples, do they not? 5 Q "O f the 21 sam ples w e analyzed, 17 were 5 A T hat's w h at th ey have reported, yes. 6 production run sam ples and 4 w ere other type samples." 6 Q Chrysotile asbestos; right? 7 Correct? 7 A That's w hat they reported. 8 A Yes. 8 Q A nd they find trem olite in one; correct? 9 Q "In th is latter group o f 4 , on e s a m p le ... 9 A Correct. 10 contained 2 sm all chrysotile fibers w hile the other 3 10 Q Right, sir, you can set that aside. 11 sam ples d id n o t show an y asbestiform fibers w hatever". 11 This next exhibit will be 76. 12 R ig h t? 12 (Exhibit 76 m arked for identification) 13 A Correct. 13 A Thank you. 14 Q Now , go to the last page and w e can look at the 14 Q Is that tw o copies? Can you hand one to 15 p roduction sam ples v ersu s th ese o ther four sam ples th at 15 S haria, please? 16 were sent. 16 A It is two copies, yeah. 17 Production -- this is w hat the m ine is 17 Q Sorry. All right. 18 producing; correct? 18 This is a docum ent called Historical Review. 19 A Yes. 19 Do you see that? 20 Q Okay. 20 A Yes. 21 A A lthough I'm not sure that are w e talking about 21 Q A ll right. 22 the industrial m ine o r the --there's nothing here 22 A nd you can look just on the first part, 23 w hich separates out the industrial m ine from the 23 they're talking about the Tenovus studies. A fter that, 24 cosm etic mine. 24 they're talking about D r S elikoff and M ount Sinai. 25 Q W ell, the industrial m ine was w hich one? 25 A fter that, they're talking about D r Kleinfeld's study Page 429 Page 431 1 A W ell, I think it w as the H am m ine, but I'm ju st 1 from N ew York. 2 calling it the industrial mine. 2 Do you see that? 3 W h at I'm saying here is th at it doesn't 3 A Yeah. 4 actually say w hich m ine this cam e from. 4 Q Okay. 5 Q L et m e ask you a question: w here did Robert 5 T hen they're talking about their relationship 6 Rolle work? 6 with the FDA; right? 7 A A t Johnson & Johnson. 7 A Yes. 8 Q Aha, and in what company? 8 Q Okay. 9 A The --w hat's now the consum er com pany, the 9 Let's ju st go - w e're not going to go 10 B aby Products Com pany. 10 through all o f this stuff. L et m e skip ahead. 11 Q R obert Rolle worked in the Baby Products 11 Right. Let's ju st go to the very end. G o to 12 C om pany; correct? 12 the second last page. O kay. 13 A Yes. 13 D o you see a t the top o f page 18 it says Talc 14 Q A nd the Baby Products Company never used 14 Strategy? 15 industrial talc, d id it? 15 A It does, yes. 16 A Correct. 16 Q Okay. 17 Q A nd this is a letter from M cCrone to Robert 17 Talc strategy: 18 R olle, w h o w o rk ed in the B ab y Products C om pany; true? 18 "Cornstarch appears to be the num ber one 19 A It is true, yes. 19 answ er to any alternatives to talcum powder". 20 Q Okay. 20 R ig h t? 21 A nd this letter to the guy who worked in the 21 Does it say that? 22 B ab y P roducts C om pany is -- ad d resses 17 pro d u ctio n rur 122 A That's w hat it says, yes. 23 sam ples to this m an; right? 23 Q "W e presently have a cornstarch formula 24 A Yes. 24 packaged and it is planned that a test m arket will 25 Q Okay. 25 ensue on the form ula during the first quarter o f 1975". 14 (Pages 4 2 8 - 4 3 1 ) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 432 Page 434 1 A nd the reason I bring that up is because you 1 A Vernon Zeitz. 2 and I were talking about w hen cornstarch really went on 2 Q Vernon Zeitz at W indsor? 3 as an alternative to talc from Johnson & Johnson? 3 A Yes. 4 A Okay. Yeah. 4 Q Okay. 5 Q A nd it looks like they're talking about testing 5 A nd he says: 6 it in '75; right? 6 "Dear M r Zeitz: 7 A Y eah, that's correct. 7 I have com pleted the analysis o f your eleven 8 Q And you yourself have said it was available for 8 latest sa m p le s..." 9 use as early as the early 1900s; correct? 9 A nd he gives the identification o f all the 10 A By other companies, yes. 10 sam ples; right? 11 Q Yeah. 11 A Yeah. 12 A Yes, yes. 12 Q A nd he says: 13 Q Y ou guys w eren't? 13 "O nly one sample was found to contain fibrous 14 A Yes, it was available. 14 asbestiform m aterial -- D -G [sic] 7/15 to 7/29. 15 Q A nd then turn to the last page: 15 C hrysotile fibers w ere found to b e present at an 16 "Johnson & Johnson has already instituted a 16 estim ated level (good approxim ately to an order o f 17 n ew flotation a g en t (butanol) a t W in d so r M in es to 17 m agnitude) o f .006% ". 18 further in sure com plete rem oval o f'a sb e sto s' 18 R ig h t? 19 [m aterials] [ s i c ] ..." 19 A That's w hat it says, yes. 20 A Close quotes. 20 Q Now, w hen he says "good approxim ately to an 21 Q Right? 21 order o f m agnitude", he m eans --he could be o ff by a 22 A Yes. 22 factor o f ten low er or ten higher; right? 23 Q O r asbestos m inerals, I'm sorry. 23 A W ell, th at's speculation. I w o u ld n 't w an t to 24 A Yeah. 24 speculate as to how accurate plus or minus ten, that 25 Q N ow , there w ere tw o d ifferent flo tation m ethods 25 technique w as in '74. B u t ... Page 433 Page 435 1 that they w ere looking at? 1 Q W ell, that's w hat he's telling you. 2 One was just n-butanol and one was n-butanol 2 A H e's saying an order o f m agnitude 3 plus citric acid, and it w as the latter that show ed the 3 .006 per cent, and the little squiggle usually m eans 4 better reduction o f asbestos m inerals; right? 4 approximately. 5 A In that one experiment, yes. 5 Q Right. 6 Q Yeah. 6 So let's get this straight. A n order o f 7 It appears here they're ju st using butanol, 7 m agnitude m eans ten tim es; right? 8 unless they are saying butanol and that's to be taken 8 A No, no. A n order o f magnitude could be five 9 to m ean butanol plus citric acid; right? 9 tim es, two tim es. It doesn't actually state. 10 A Y es, yeah. I don't know w hat the author is 10 A nd I'm not going to speculate w hat the 11 saying, b u t yeah. 11 au th o r w as m eant b y an "order o f m agnitude o f 12 Q B ut their statem ent here is they did it 12 approxim ately .006 p e r cent". 13 specifically to ensure com plete rem oval o f asbestos 13 Q In science talk, are you saying that when 14 m inerals; right? 14 som eone says "order o f m agnitude", they could m ean any 15 A W ith "asbestos" in quotes. Closed quotes. 15 m agnitude? 16 Q Yeah. 16 A They could. Yeah, yeah. 17 Now, there was no w ay they could com pletely 17 Q A ll right. 18 rem ove it because even th e experim ents w e saw didn't 18 A I w ouldn't w ant to put a figure o f ten tim es or 19 show com plete rem oval; right? 19 20 tim es. It w ould be speculative. 20 A Correct. 20 Q Okay. 21 Q Okay. A ll right. So w e can set that aside. 21 A I'm not going to speculate. 22 This will be 77. 22 B ut w hat it says, an order o f m agnitude o f 23 (Exhibit 77 m arked for identification) 23 approxim ately -- that little squiggle --.006 per cent. 24 Right, sir, w e have --this is M r Shimps at 24 Q So in one sam ple, M cCrone finds chrysotile 25 W alter M cCrone to M r Zeitz. Is it Zeitz? 25 fibers at approxim ately - squiggle line? 15 (Pages 432 - 435) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 436 Page 438 1 A Yes. 1 That's also described as a "fiber bundle", is 2 Q .006 per cent; right? 2 it not? 3 A That's w hat they've w ritten, yes. 3 A It's what it writes, yes. 4 Q A nd these --you can see the way these are 4 Q Okay. Sir, you can set that aside. 5 dated. T hese are tw o w eek sam ples, are they not? 5 This will be 79. 6 A Yes. 6 (Exhibit 79 marked for identification) 7 Q So w e 'll p u t bi-w eekly sam ples. Is th at 7 A Thank you. 8 accurate? 8 Q This is another communication from McCrone to 9 A Yeah. 9 Mr Zeitz at Windsor Minerals, July 1,1975; correct? 10 Q N o w , the arran g em en t betw een Johnson & Johnson 10 A Yes. 11 and its m in in g com pany, W in d so r M inerals, w a s th at 11 Q Okay. 12 W indsor M inerals a t som e p o in t w ould tak e o v e r the 12 And it says here that they examined two 13 testing o f th e ore, the reg u lar testing; right? 13 different groups o f samples using electron microscopy 14 A That's m y understanding. 14 and selected area electron diffraction to determine the 15 Q A nd that they w ould supply the reports, such as 15 extent of amphiboles or serpentine contamination in 16 w e have here, to Johnson & Johnson? 16 these two groups of samples: 17 A Correct. 17 "The first group consisted o f 29 talc samples 18 Q Okay. 18 which were taken from your ore body. The second group 19 So Johnson & Johnson could be apprized o f 19 consisted o f 7 samples which were sent to us 20 w hat w as going on; right? 20 subsequently to be analyzed separately. The general 21 A Yes. 21 conclusion that we came to in this study is that these 22 Q Okay. 22 samples do show some amphiboles but at an extremely low 23 That's o f course w hy w hen Johnson & Johnson 23 level. We did not find any chrysotile (serpentine 24 gave us documents in the case, we have the reports? 24 asbestos) in any o f the samples". 25 A Yes. 25 Okay? Page 437 Page 439 1 Q Because Johnson & Johnson had them; correct? 1 Then they provide a key to evaluating them, 2 A Correct. 2 and that's in the second paragraph: 3 Q Okay. 3 "In exam ining the samples, w e kept a running 4 This next Exhibit is 78. 4 tabulation o f the asbestos w hich we could positively 5 (Exhibit 78 m arked for identification) 5 identify". 6 T here you go, sir. 6 Okay? So they're talking about the 7 A Thank you. 7 identification o f asbestos; correct, sir? 8 Q This is the sam e report w e ju st looked at, but 8 A That's w hat they write, yes. 9 the reason I'm giving it to you again is this separate 9 Q "... the total fiber content in the organic 10 docum ent provided to us by Johnson & Johnson has an 10 m aterial present in each sam ple. T hese are listed 11 attachm ent to it, a n d can y o u see on the attachm ent 11 qualitatively as zero for none ... low for 1 to 3 12 each o f th e sam ples is actually describ ed in som e 12 fibers found, m edium for about 4 to 8 fibers, high and 13 detail; right? 13 v e ry high". 14 A Yeah. 14 R ig h t? 15 Q A nd for the one that w as positive for 15 "In no case did the asbestos content exceed 16 chrysotile th at w e discussed, it w as the sam ple D -G I? 16 m edium ". 17 A I, yes. 17 All right? 18 Q C an y ou see the description on the second page? 18 A Yes. 19 It says the fibers were -- the fibers that 19 Q Okay. 20 were found, the chrysotile fibers: 20 So let's turn the page to these sam ples, and 21 "The fibers w ere m ainly in 'chunks' o f 21 here th is is Ju ly 1, '75. 22 material showing anywhere from two to ten fibers". 22 Again, this is - do you see w here it says 23 Is that right? 23 under Table 1 D escription o f sample content o f fines? 24 A Yes. 24 A Yes. 25 Q Okay. 25 Q Okay. 16 (Pages 436 - 439) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 440 Page 442 1 Then it says this: confirm ed asbestos; right? 1 Johnson; correct? 2 A Yes. 2 A For baby, yes. 3 Q Visual? 3 Q For baby; right? 4 A Yeah. 4 A Yes, yes. 5 Q So w e can agree, sir, they are telling you that 5 Q These documents came from Johnson & Johnson; 6 in some cases they have confirm ed asbestos; correct? 6 correct? 7 A They did. 7 A They did, yes, although they're w ritten to 8 Q Okay. 8 W indsor M inerals. 9 There is nine results w here they confirm ed 9 Q Right, but Johnson & Johnson had these in their 10 asbestos; correct? 10 records? 11 A T hey did. 11 A They had them in their records, yes. 12 Q D oes Johnson & Johnson take issue w ith their 12 Q Okay. 13 confirm ed resu lts here? 13 M y question, though, is how often w as W indsor 14 A The results are as reported. 14 testing the industrial talc for asbestos, because they 15 Q A nd then if you turn to Table 2, they talk 15 k n ew there w as asbestos in it; right? 16 ab o u t D escrip tio n o f the sam ple content sedim ent, and 16 A I --you know , I'm here to talk about the baby 17 th ey have an o th e r one, tw o, three, four, five asbestos 17 product side. 18 confirm ations; right? 18 Q M mmhmm. 19 A They do, yes. 19 A I don't know w hat w as going on with the 20 Q Okay. 20 industrial side in '74. 21 R ight. Y ou can set that aside, sir. 21 Q W ell, you're offering -- 22 A Just one point I would make. 22 A M y understanding is that it was done bi-weekly. 23 Q Mmmhmm? 23 Q Y ou're offering as a potential explanation for 24 A Is that nowhere does it say that those talc 24 all these asbestos results that maybe it was the 25 sam ples w ere the talcs that was used in baby pow der or 25 industrial m ine that w as being tested; right? Page 441 Page 443 1 Shower to Shower. 1 A It's a possibility. 2 Q So, as part o f the arrangem ent betw een W indsor 2 Q Y ou don't have any evidence that's the case, 3 M inerals, they were to provide these results to Johnson 3 though. 4 & Johnson; correct? 4 A A t this instant, I don't. 5 A They were to provide results, yes. 5 Q Okay. 6 Q A ha, and at any tim e during -- first o f all, 6 A But, you know, w e m ay come to that. 7 did Johnson & Johnson utilize any o f its industrial 7 Q Y eah, and w e'll see. 8 m ines for consum er talc? 8 A Yeah. 9 A No. 9 Q B ut m y question is the industrial talc, Johnson 10 Q Okay. 10 & Johnson acknow ledges there w as asbestos in the 11 H ow often did Johnson & Johnson have its 11 industrial talc; correct? 12 industrial talc.sent o ff to M cCrone? 12 A There could have been. 13 A The responsibility w as for that to be done by 13 Q Okay. 14 M r Zeitz at the W indsor M inerals. 14 I f they know it's there, they don't need to 15 Q M mmhmm. 15 test it; right? 16 A So that's to w hom the letter is written. 16 A W ell, they did test it. It w as tested by the 17 Q W ell - 17 m ine, and that's the report to the m ine. 18 A So the question I raise is that, without going 18 Q Y ou said --w ell, first o f all, you don't know 19 through those individually, w e've n o t defined w hether 19 that that's an industrial talc report? 20 they were industrial talc or whether it was the baby 20 A A t this stage w ithout going through the 21 p o w d e r talc, b ecause it d id n o t com e to Johnson & 21 records, yeah. 22 Johnson. The letter w as w ritten to the mine. 22 Q A nd you said you believed it was bi-weekly. 23 Q As part o f the agreem ent between W indsor and 23 Now, we know that the Hammondsville m ine and 24 Johnson & Johnson, w e already established that W indsor 24 later the A rgonaut m ine were tested bi-weekly; correct? 25 had to provide the results o f its testing to Johnson & 25 A T hat is correct, yes. 17 (Pages 440 - 443) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 444 1 Q D o you actually know that the industrial talc 1 A Thank you. Page 446 2 was tested bi-weekly? 2 Q Right, sir. This is O ctober 20,1975. Again, 3 A I don't know that no, no. 3 it's from M cCrone to R oger M iller; right? 4 Q O kay. A ll right. 4 A A t the Verm ont mine, yes, yes. 5 This w ill be 80. 5 Q Right. Okay. 6 (Exhibit 80 m arked for identification) 6 It says: 7 A ll right, sir, this is from N ovem ber 5, 7 "W e have exam ined three samples o f talc UN 8 1975; correct? 8 w hich you recently sent to us to determine their fiber 9 A Correct, yes. 9 content". 10 Q Okay. 10 R ig h t? 11 This is 20 years after D r Emm ett Brown 11 A Yeah. 12 in vented tim e travel in B ack T o T he Future. 12 Q "These sam ples w ere identified as follows: 13 It w as Novem ber 5,1955. Just a little pop 13 chips fro m ... [4 20 lb] [sic] pieces, 'S tun sam ple A', 14 culture. 14 and 'Stun sam ple A cleaner concentrate"'. 15 A N o , I do n 't rem em b er that. 15 D o you know w hat "stun" means? 16 Q A ll right. Okay. 16 A I do not, no. 17 So N ovem ber 5,1975. This is again M cCrone 17 Q Okay. 18 to W indsor M inerals; right? 18 W ell, let's go dow n to the third paragraph: 19 A Correct, yes. 19 "None o f the m ethods o f exam ination showed 20 Q And here if you turn to the table, they find 20 any evidence o f asbestiform m inerals present in any o f 21 "fibers o f asbestos in ..." 21 the three sam ples. B oth light m icroscopy and 22 I show 13 sam ples. Is that about right? 22 transm ission electron m icroscopy indicated that the 23 A Y eah, I co u n t 12, b u t ... 23 unbeneficiated talc w as som ewhat more fibrous than the 24 Q O kay. I'll p ut 12. 24 Ham mondsville talc to w hich we are accustomed". 25 A I'm not worried. 25 R ig h t? Page 445 Page 447 1 Q I'll put a squiggly line. 1 A Yes. 2 A I'm happy w ith that. 2 Q Okay. 3 Q O kay. Squiggly line. 12 samples. 3 "It should be remembered, however, that we 4 A Yeah. 4 norm ally exam ine Ham mondsville talc after beneficiation 5 Q Okay. 5 which would remove m uch o f the talc which would be 6 T he reaso n I counted 13 is because sam ple 6 described as fibrous on the 3:1 axial ratio criterion". 7 P-GI, it doesn't say anything for fibers o f asbestos, 7 So they're talking about the flotation, 8 but it does say four amphibole fibers under num ber of 8 right, as reducing som e o f that stuff; right? 9 fibers; do you see that? 9 A Yes. 10 A Yes. 10 Q "M any o f these 'fibers' w ere plates w hich w ere 11 Q O kay. W e'll leave it at about 12. 11 rolled. W e estim ate th at the talc its e lf is 12 M S FRO ST: W e are at about a hour. 12 approxim ately 60-70% p e r cent platy". 13 D o you need a -- 13 A nd that ju st means the plates o f talc; 14 M R PANATIER: Do you want a break? 14 right? 15 TH E W ITNESS: Five minutes. 15 A Correct, yes. That's w hat you're looking for. 16 M R PA N A T IE R : O kay. Sure. W e'll do it in 16 Q Sure. 17 five m inutes. 17 "By transm ission electron m icroscopy we did 18 Is that 81? 18 see several fibers w hich w ere approxim ately 30 -- 19 M S FRO ST: It is. 19 300-600 in diam eter. These appeared to be o f 20 M R PANATIER: Okay. That was 81? 20 bacterial origin or were perhaps a contam inant o f clay 21 M S FROST: No. This one. 21 m ineral such as attapulgite. N o diffraction pattern 22 M R PANATIER: Okay. This w ill be 81. Got 22 could be obtained from these fibers but they were 23 you. 23 definitely not chrysotile. 24 (E xhibit 81 m arked for identification) 24 Some other fibers present in the 25 Q T here you go, sir. 25 unbeneficiated sample appeared to us to be somewhat 18 (Pages 444 - 447) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 448 1 fibrous antigorite and our electron diffraction 1 2 patterns w ould tend to support this". 2 Now, go up one, it says: "D r John S tuart o f [the] FD A reveals ..." Page 450 3 N ow , antigorite is the sort o f m assive form 3 R ig h t? 4 o f chrysotile; right? 4 A Yes. 5 A That's m y understanding, yes. 5 Q "... that no cosm etic talc (so far) fails the 6 Q Okay. 6 D TA test". 7 Before w e take our break, let's look at the 7 Now, DTA is what? 8 next docum ent, because it has to do w ith that. 8 A I think that means the differential thermal 9 This w ill be 81. 82. Okay. G ot it now. On 9 analysis. 10 board. 10 Q Differential therm al analysis. 11 (Exhibit 82 m arked for identification) 11 Now, this was a test that Johnson & Johnson, 12 There you go. 12 as w ell as som e o f the other com panies, w ere proposing 13 A Thank you. 13 to test fo r chrysotile; right? 14 Q You know what, here. Let m e fix that. Okay. 14 A It's part o f a program o f w hich D TA w ould be 15 This is Analysis o f FD A Talc Samples for 15 one test, yes. 16 Am phibole and Serpentine M inerals done b y Regina 16 Q That was never adopted by the CTFA; correct? 17 G allagher. 17 A Correct, yes. 18 N ow , she's a J& J person; right? 18 Q It was never adopted by the USP or anybody? 19 A She w as a - yeah, she w as in the quality lab, 19 A Correct, yes. 20 yeah. 20 Q B ut it w as adopted by J&J; right? 21 Q All right. Decem ber 24,1975; right? 21 A A s part o f several other tests, yes. 22 A Yes. 22 Q Right, and w e'll get to those. 23 Q Okay. 23 B ut John Stuart here show s --he's w ith the 24 Go ahead and turn to the next page and this 24 FDA; right? 25 says Position I, O ptical m icroscope m ethod is 25 A Yes. Page 449 Page 451 1 unacceptable. 1 Q A nd, ju st for clarification, the first docum ent 2 N ow , you're aw are that the FD A had proposed 2 w e talked about today w as John Stuart w ho w as doing the 3 an optical m icroscopy standard for asbestos in talc; 3 testing. 4 correct? 4 Do you recall that? 5 A Correct. 5 A I do, yes. 6 Q A nd Johnson & Johnson was very critical o f that 6 Q A ll right. Sir, you can set that aside. 7 method; true? 7 Let's take a break. 8 A Yes. 8 (O ff the record at 11:16 am) 9 Q A s w as the w hole talc industry; right? 9 (O n the record at 11:27 am ) 10 A Yes. 10 B Y M R PANATIER: 11 Q A nd so this appears to be --it says Position 11 Q A ll right, sir. N ow , w e established yesterday 12 I - one o f Jo h n so n & Johnson's positions; is th at 12 that Johnson & Johnson had a zero tolerance policy for 13 right? 13 asbestos in its talcs; correct? 14 A Yes. 14 A Yes. 15 Q Okay. 15 Q A nd that m eans zero, none? N one allowed? 16 G o dow n to num ber 5. See where it says: 16 A Zero. 17 "If talc contains detectable levels o f 17 Q Okay. 18 antigorite it pro bably contains som e chrysotile". 18 A ll right, here's 83. 19 R ig h t? 19 (Exhibit 83 m arked for identification) 20 A That's w hat it says, yes. 20 Sir, can you see this docum ent is dated 21 Q Okay. 21 O ctober 17,1980? 22 So w e just saw a result from M cCrone for 22 A Yes. 23 antigorite; right? 23 Q Those are W illiam A shton's initials up on the 24 A W e did, yes. 24 top there, W HA; correct? 25 Q Okay. 25 A Yes. 19 (Pages 4 4 8 - 4 5 1 ) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 452 Page 454 1 Q I f y ou turn to the end, w e'll see w ho w rote it. 1 A Correct. 2 It's R S Russell; correct? 2 Q A ll right. 3 A Yes. 3 Then go to Interpretation o f Results, okay, 4 Q A ll right. 4 and do you see that it says if you see less than three 5 So let's go to the front. This is Johnson & 5 amphibole particles, then your result is none present; 6 Johnson's procedure for identification and 6 right? 7 quantification o f amphibole particles in J& J talcs 7 A Yes. 8 using optical m ineralogical m icroscopy; correct? 8 Q So you could see two amphibole particles and 9 A Yes. 9 still report none present; true? 10 Q It says: 10 A Yes. 11 "The Talc Lab currently relies on three 11 Q I f you see three to 27 amphibole particles, 12 techniques to exam ine talc fo r freedom from asbestos 12 m eaning .01 to .1 p e r cen t b y w eight, th at is listed as 13 m inerals". 13 trace acceptable; correct? 14 N o w , this is 1980. It says nu m b er 1: 14 A That's w hat it states, yes. 15 "Optical M ineralogical M icroscopy for 15 Q So under Johnson & Johnson's procedure here, if 16 particles >5 m icrons". 16 y ou have .01 t o . 1 p e r cent am phibole particles, that 17 R ig h t? 17 trace am ount is acceptable by Johnson & Johnson; 18 A Yes. 18 correct? 19 Q "CTFA M ethod J4-1 (x-ray)". 19 A That's w hat it states. 20 R ig h t? 20 Q Okay. 21 A Yes. 21 If you have greater than 27 amphibole 22 Q And: 22 particles, m eaning greater th a n .1 per cent presence by 23 "SEM + Dispersive X -ray Analysis (EDAX) for 23 weight, it says: 24 particles < 5 microns". 24 "Controversial m inerals present - not 25 R ig h t? 25 recommended". Page 453 Page 455 1 A Yes. 1 R ig h t? 2 Q SEM is scanning electron m icroscopy; right? 2 A That's w hat it states. 3 A It is, yes. 3 Q So at trace am ounts, it's acceptable. B ut it's 4 Q Okay. 4 controversial a t .1 p e r cen t --g reater than 5 It says that: 5 .1 p e rc e n t; right? 6 "The optical m ineralogical m ethod, described 6 A Correct. 7 below, is a fast and reliable indicator o f talc safety 7 Q T hen if you see greater than or equal to 135 8 and serves as our first line o f defense". 8 am phibole particles, that gives you .5 p e r cent by 9 R ig h t? 9 w eight presence; right? 10 A M m m hmm, yes. 10 A Yes. 11 Q U nder General Comments, it says: 11 Q A nd that is w here it's detectable by J4-1 ; 12 "In alm ost all cases the amphibole observed 12 right? 13 is specifically trem olite, o r actinolite i f iro n is 13 A B y x-ray diffraction, yes. 14 present". 14 Q That's right, and it says "m andatory 15 D id I read that right? 15 rejection"? 16 A Y ou did. 16 A Yes. 17 Q So pretty m uch they --if they see anything, 17 Q So m andatory rejection only comes in once you 18 th ey expect to see trem olite o r actinolite; right? 18 get to .5 per cent b y w eight; right? 19 A That's w hat's --that's the im plication, yes. 19 A O f amphiboles. 20 Q Okay. 20 Q O f amphiboles. 21 Then it has the procedure. It tells you how 21 Below that, there is --J& J does not 22 you prepare the sample; right? 22 m inatorily reject the talc; correct? 23 A Yes. 23 A Let's turn that on its head. 24 Q A nd then it says in detail how you go about 24 If you do the J4-1 test m ethodology by x-ray 25 analyzing the sam ple; correct? 25 diffraction, that's the first step. 20 (Pages 452 - 455) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 456 1 Y ou then go on and test for the other 1 Q Right. Page 458 2 m aterials by -- sorry, the sam e m aterials - by those 2 A nd then the language they use in 1 below 3 other test m ethods, electron m icroscopy, optical 3 doesn't say m andatory rejection. It ju st says, 4 m icroscopy. 4 "recommend against"; right? 5 Q Yeah, I hear you, but w hat this says is the 5 A That's w hat it says. 6 first point at which this is detectable, the levels 6 Q A ll right. Y ou can set that aside, sir. 7 w ould be detectable by J4, is half a per cent, like you 7 B y the way, so for the industrial talc versus 8 and I talked about; right? 8 the "cosmetic talc", w hich mill was handling the 9 A Yes, yes. 9 industrial talc? 10 Q I f it's detectable at .5 per cent, it has to be 10 A It was a separate m ill from the cosm etic talc. 11 m in ato rily rejected; right? 11 T he tw o n ev er m et. 12 A Yes. 12 Q W as it the Gassettes M ill, or Gassettes? 13 Q B ut if by optical, w hich is w hat this is 13 A That sounds familiar, but I'm not going to be 14 talking about, am phiboles are present at less than 14 100 p e r cent sure on that. 15 .5 p e r cent, okay, it's n ot m an d ato ry rejection; right? 15 Q W e can look at --we can look at some stuff on 16 A Correct. 16 that later. 17 Q Okay. Now , let's go to the next paragraph. 17 But the Gassettes M ill, or whichever mill was 18 It says: 18 handling the industrial, w as a dry beneficiation 19 "The table refers to amphiboles which have 19 process; correct? 20 crystallized in the non-fibrous form as described in 20 A I'm not fam iliar w ith it. T hat's an industrial 21 th is report. T h e am phiboles m ay also o ccu r in a 21 operation. W e w ere not - - 1 w as not fam iliar with 22 fibrous form. The presence o f even trace amounts o f 22 that. 23 fibrous amphiboles w ould be grounds to recom m end 23 Q W e certainly know that the W indsor mill, which 24 against the talc sam ple for safety reasons". 24 w as handling everything for the baby pow der products 25 R ig h t? 25 and the cosmetic products, was a w et beneficiation Page 457 Page 459 1 A That's w hat it states. 1 process? 2 Q So any presence o f fibrous amphiboles, meaning 2 A W e do, yes. 3 fibers; right? 3 Q Okay. 4 A Yes. 4 This next exhibit w ill be 84. 5 Q W ould be grounds to reject it for safety 5 (Exhibit 84 m arked for identification) 6 reasons; right? 6 Right, sir, can you see this is a report to 7 A Correct. 7 W indsor M inerals from M cCrone again? 8 Q Okay. 8 A Yes. 9 Because the presence o f fibers o f amphiboles 9 Q August 22,1985; right? 10 could be harm ful to som ebody; correct? 10 A Yeah. 11 A Correct. 11 Q Okay. 12 Q Now, does it say it has to be mandatorily 12 A nd there they have --the samples are WMI 13 rejected there, o r w hether it's ju s t n o t recom m ended? 13 a n d th en a num ber; right? 14 A It says: 14 A Yes. 15 "... w o u ld b e ground to reco m m en d a g a in s t... 15 Q Okay. 16 talc s a m p le ..." 16 If you go to the second page, it says: 17 Q But not: shall be rejected; right? 17 "Chrysotile asbestos was detected only in the 18 A W ell, it's the phraseology, but it says: 18 sam ples lab eled W M I 85-28 a n d ... 85-30". 19 "[It] w ould be grounds to recom m end against 19 R ig h t? 20 the talc s a m p le ..." 20 A That's w hat it reads, yes. 21 Q W ell, w e know above i f you find am phiboles at 21 Q I f it's W indsor M inerals, it's the talc that's 22 greater th a n .1 per cent and less than .5 p er cent, it 22 being used for consum ers; correct? 23 says not recom m ended, b ut i f it's over .5 p e r cent, it 23 A N o, no, that's --I w ouldn't concur w ith that. 24 says m andatory rejection; right? 24 W indsor M inerals w as also -- ran the m ine for 25 A Yeah. 25 industrial applications. 21 (Pages 456 - 459) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 1 Q Okay. Page 460 I 2 So are you saying, so here w e've got 2 3 chrysotile asbestos, according to M cCrone; right? 3 4 A Yes. 4 5 Q In tw o samples; right? 5 6 A Yes. 6 7 Q T his docum ent's in possession o f Johnson & 7 8 Johnson; right? 8 9 A Yes. 9 10 Q O kay, and you're saying that you don't know , it 10 11 m ig h t be industrial? 11 12 A W ithout having the key, those two codes, W M I 12 13 85-28 an d W M I 85-30, w h a t th ey say is th at there's no 13 14 evidence here that this w as the talc used in baby 14 15 pow der. 15 16 Q Okay. 16 17 Do you know w hen Eastern M agnesia was running 17 18 th e industrial m ine an d w h en th ey w e ren 't? 18 19 A I don't, no. No. 19 20 Q Okay. 20 21 Y ou can set that aside. 21 22 So did you tell me as a m atter o f fact that 22 23 you believed Vernon Zeitz was running the industrial 23 24 site, or do you know that? 24 25 A M y understanding, having read the 25 Page 461 1 correspondence, is that Vernon Zeits was involved in 1 2 both the industrial side and the consum er side. 2 3 Q Okay? 3 4 A That's m y understanding. 4 5 Q Okay, so just b y - 5 6 A Reading correspondence. 6 7 Q --seeing his nam e, you don't know. 7 8 A --on both --on both sets o f correspondence. 8 9 (Reporter requested one speaker at a tim e) 9 10 Q All right. 10 11 This next one will be Exhibit 85. 11 12 (Exhibit 85 m arked for identification) 12 13 Sir, this is a Johnson & Johnson memo; right? 13 14 A Yes. 14 15 Q January 30,1987; correct? 15 16 A Yes. 16 17 Q I'll go w rite it on the board up here. 17 18 I'm going to fix m y m icrophone, w hich 18 19 dragging o n the floor. 19 20 A ll right. So this states: 20 21 "The accompanying table summarizes 21 22 the am phibole m ineral content o f various talc sam ples 2 2 23 subm itted to date for m icroscopical evaluation. The 23 24 counts per slide were obtained by the dispersion 24 25 staining m ethod on acid-w ashed sam ples. Few acicular 25 Page 462 and n o fibrous fo rm s w ere o b serv ed ". A cicular m eans needle-like; correct? A It does, yes. Q Okay. I f y o u go to the second page, sir, they have a series o f resu lts h ere. A ctu ally , I'm g o in g to turn the p ag e, an d w e'll do th is o n the n ex t page. F irst o f all, they look at W indsor T alcs; rig h t? A Yeah. Q A nd they look at float feed; right? A Yeah. Q In the float they find am phiboles in one, tw o, three, four, five sam ples; right? A Yes. Q A n d w h a t it says is th at - and th at's p er slide; right? A Yes. Q A nd if you w ant to know particles b y m illion y o u have to m ultiply b y five to get the parts per m illion; right? A I f y o u w ere looking at 200,000 Q M m m hm m ? A -- particles, y o u w ould, yeah. Q W ell, it says at 200,000 particles per slide. Page 463 A Yes. Q So th at is w h a t th ey w ere looking at? A Yes, yes, yeah. Q So if y o u w ant to know parts p er m illion, yoi m ultiply the results b y five; right? A Yes. Q So in the float feed they find tw o particles, zero particles and 12 particles; right? A C orrect. Q A n d those are am phiboles; right? A C orrect. Q N o w , w h en y o u 're lo o k in g a t a slide, th at's ar optical technique, no t X R D ; correct? A C orrect, yes. Q A nd then in -- they have test stock, initial test stock, second test stock, float feed and filter cake; right? A Yes. Q Okay. So w e're g o in g to do test stock 1, test stock 2, float and filter cake. N ow , w h at is filter cake? A I th in k th at's the final p roduct. Q A ll right. So w hat they find there is they find zero in 22 (Pages 460 - 463) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 464 Page 466 1 test stock 1, nine in second test stock, 70 in the 1 A It's w ritten to Baby Products Company. 2 float feed and three in the filter cake o f amphiboles; 2 Q To Johnson & Johnson Baby Products Company? 3 right? 3 A Yeah, yeah. 4 A Yes. 4 Q They w ere not involved in industrial talc, were 5 Q Okay. 5 they? 6 Then they actually test the baby powder 6 A No, no. 7 itself, do they not? 7 Q So this is the cosm etic/baby pow der talc? 8 A They do, yes. 8 A It's a reasonable supposition, yes. 9 Q A nd there they find ten amphiboles; right? 9 Q It is the case, absent some extraneous evidence 10 A They do, yes. Yeah. 10 you and I --neither you nor I am aw are of; correct? 11 Q A nd if w e wanted to know w hat that was per 11 A Correct. 12 m illion, th at w o u ld b e 50 particles p e r m illion 12 Q Okay. 13 particles; right? 13 So this is a test -- it looks like it's a 14 A Yes. 14 test o f 20 or 25 different sam ples taken throughout the 15 Q Okay. 15 processing or throughout the process o f the 16 In a - in a standard container o f Johnson's 16 beneficiation o f talc; right? 17 B aby P ow der, first o f all, ab o u t w h a t is the average 17 A Yes. 18 w eig h t o f a -- 18 Q Okay. 19 A Eight ounces. 19 A nd here they have am phiboles per slide. 20 Q Eight ounces. Okay. 20 Again, they're looking w ith an optical m icroscopy 21 In eight ounces o f baby powder, there are 21 technique; correct? 22 tens, m aybe hundreds o f trillions o f particles; 22 A Yes, yes. 23 correct? 23 Q So put our date dow n here. This is 3.30.87. 24 A Yes. 24 T his is the W indsor m ill for baby powder, and w e have 25 Q Right. 25 one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, Page 465 Page 467 1 It's n o t lik e th ere's a m illio n p articles in 1 ten, 1 1 ,1 2 ,1 3 , 1 4 ,15,16, 1 7 ,1 8 ,1 9 ,2 0 ,2 1 ,2 2 ,2 3 2 a th in g o f talc. Y o u 'd p ro b a b ly b a re ly see a m illio n 2 positive results for amphiboles; right? 3 particles; right? 3 A Yes. 4 A Yeah. 4 Q A nd som e o f these results, sir, are up to 500 5 Q Yeah. Okay. 5 am phiboles per slide; right? 6 A ll right. Y ou can set th at aside, sir. 6 A Yes. 7 T his next one w ill be E xhibit 86. 7 Q A nd, to be fair, that's in the tails; right? 8 (E xhibit 86 m arked for identification) 8 A Yeah. 9 Sir, this is M arch 3 0 ,1 9 7 8 ; right? 9 Q The tails means the portion o f the ore that 10 A Yes. 10 w ill not be used? 11 Q Okay. 11 A That's correct. 12 T h is is tw o m o n th s a f te r th e re p o rt y o u a n d I 12 Q Right, but in the concentrate, w hich is the 13 j u s t lo o k e d at; rig h t? 13 resu ltin g product, w e h av e 3 0 am phiboles p e r slide. 14 A Yes. 14 T hat first - very first one; right? 15 Q Okay. 15 A Yes. 16 H e r e y o u 'v e g o t s a m p le s t h a t a r e s e n t, a n d w< 16 Q If we go down a little bit, we have a 17 k n o w t h is is t h e -- f i r s t o f a ll, w e k n e w t h is l a s t o n e 17 concentrate th at has 100 am phiboles p e r slide; true? 18 w as th e -- w a s th e co sm etic talc? 18 A Yes. 19 A Yes. 19 Q Okay, and then as we get down towards the 20 Q Okay. 20 bottom o f the page, we have one with zero, we have two 21 T h e n w e k n o w th is is th e c o s m e tic ta lc , to o ; 21 w ith zero, w e have one w ith three am phiboles p e r slide; 22 correct? 22 right? 23 Is th at correct, sir? 23 A Yeah. 24 A W ell, it d o esn 't actu ally say that. 24 Q And then if you go to the next page, we have 25 Q W hat com pany is it w ritten to? 25 one concentrate with 65 amphiboles per slide; true? 23 (Pages 464 - 467) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 468 Page 470 1 A True, yes. 1 one w as found to contain amphibole particle size 2 Q A ll right. Y ou can set that aside, sir. 2 distribution typical o f asbestos". 3 A Okay. 3 Okay? 4 Just for the record, if I m ay -- 4 A Okay. 5 Q Mmmhmm? 5 Q So one o f her samples had an amphibole particle 6 A --I'd not read this before --it does actually 6 size distribution typical o f asbestos; okay. 7 say "no fibrous forms were observed". 7 So let's turn to page 227 at the top. Do you 8 Q It does. It says "no fibrous forms were 8 see that? 9 observed". 9 A Yes. 10 A Am phiboles, yes. 10 Q Okay. 11 Q D o you know w hat the detection lim it o f the 11 Just so we can have some understanding of 12 m eth o d th ey w ere u sin g w as? 12 w h at w e 're looking a t here, i f y o u look a t the top o f 13 A W ell, in this particular one it was microscopy. 13 the p ag e there's a table. D o yo u see th at table? 14 Q Right, but w hat the detection lim it is? 14 A Yes. 15 A N o, I don't know , no. I ju st record --1 ju st 15 Q A nd this is --it says Figure 3: 16 record that it states no fibrous - 16 "Per cent trem olite in talc as determ ined by 17 Q That's fair. T hat's fair. 17 the centrifuge/optical m e th o d ... com p ared w ith that 18 N ow , Cyprus started running the W indsor mill 18 actually present in experim ental m ixtures ..." 19 when? 19 So there's a gray bar and a black bar: 20 A 1989. 20 "The dashed parts o f the shaded bars 21 Q 1989. Okay. 21 indicates + 2 ... standard deviations o r - 2 standard 22 W ho is Alice Blount? 22 d e v ia tio n s..." 23 A N ever heard o f her. 23 B ut then it has different samples, and you 24 Q Okay. 24 can see the samples A through K? 25 A I can't help you there. 25 A Yes. Page 469 Page 471 1 Q This w ill be Exhibit 87. 1 Q Right. 2 (Exhibit 87 m arked for identification) 2 Go down to the bottom o f the page. Should be 3 H ave you reviewed the paper Am phibole Content 3 the page that has 14433. 4 o f Cosm etic and Pharm aceutical T alcs by Alice M Blouni 4 W hat D r B lount says here is: 5 from 1991? 5 "The counts shown in Table 1 were m ade o f 6 A I do not believe I have. 6 regulatory fibers, i.e. aspect r a tio ... [of] 3:1". 7 Thank you. 7 So you understand, sir, that asbestos fibers 8 Q Okay. 8 are regulated by OSHA to the extent that they are 9 So you can see this is a paper published in 9 greater than 5 m icrons in length --greater than or 10 th e p e er rev iew jo u rn a l E nvironm ental H ealth 10 equal to 5 m icrons in length, and greater than or equal 11 P erspectives in 1991; correct? 11 to 3:1 aspect ratio; right? 12 A Correct, yes. 12 A That is correct, yes. 13 Q A ll right. 13 Q Okay. So that's w hat she's talking about right 14 Sir, if you w ill turn to - well, so you can 14 there; right? 15 g e t a fram ew o rk fo r this, all right, the ab stract says: 15 A Yes. 16 "Pharmaceutical and cosm etic-grade talcs were 16 Q Okay. 17 ex am in ed for asb estiform am phibole content using a new 17 "In som e samples there were as m any or more 18 density-optical m ethod. T alcs u n d e r the F o o d an d D rug 18 nonregulatory p articles o f am phibole as regulatory 19 A d m inistration are n o t reg u lated as to asbestos content 19 particles. T he shape o f the am phibole v aries greatly 20 II 20 and seem s to be highly characteristic o f each deposit. 21 N ow , w e talked about that yesterday. That's 21 In T able 1, the particles having aspect ratios less 22 true; right? 22 than 6:1 are designated cleavages and prism atic 23 A W e did, yes. 23 pieces". 24 Q "... how ever, all talcs w ere w ell below the 24 So she says that if it's less than 6:1 it's 25 level m an d ated b y O S H A ... for industrial talcs. O nly 25 cleavage a n d prism atic pieces, even th o u g h th ey m ay 24 (Pages 468 - 471) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 472 Page 474 1 still be a "Federal Fiber"; right? 1 fibrils; correct? 2 A Correct. 2 A Correct. 3 Q Okay. 3 Q Okay. 4 "T hose greater than 6:1 and less than 15:1 4 So she's saying that this particle is 5 are lab eled 'needles'". 5 com posed o f fibrils; right? 6 R ig h t? 6 A T h at's w h a t she's stating, yes. 7 A That's w hat's labeled, yes. 7 Q "The length and width o f 100 amphibole 8 Q So betw een 6:1 and 15:1 .y o u 're w ay over the 8 particles in this talc w ere measured." 9 aspect ratio for a Federal Fiber; right? 9 T alc I. So she m easured 100 am phibole 10 A For an OSHA fiber, yes. 10 particles in sam ple I; right? 11 Q Right. 11 A She did, yes. 12 "The rem ainder, w hich are greater than 15:1, 12 Q "The resulting distribution o f aspect ratios is 13 are lab eled 'fibers"'. 13 show n in F igure 6. T h e results w hen com pared w ith the 14 R ig h t? 14 aspect ratios determ ined for trem olite asbestos w ith 15 A Yes. 15 S E M by C am pbell e t a l ... show s sam ple I has a 16 Q So she has said: w ell, I'm going to call 16 distribution sim ilar to asbestos". 17 anything g reater th an 1 5 :1 a fiber, even tho u g h that's 17 R ig h t? 18 five tim es greater th an the a sp ect ratio set b y O S H A ; 18 A That's w hat she's w ritten, yes. 19 right? 19 Q Then under Discussion, she says: 20 A Correct. 20 "In those containing amphibole m inerals there 21 Q Okay. 21 are tw o distinct types: cleavage type and asbestos 22 Go down, and you can see Table 1 is up there; 22 type. These tw o types show distinctly different aspect 23 right? 23 ratio distributions as dem onstrated in Figure 6 24 A Yes. 24 (sam ples I and M)". 25 Q A nd it says w hat was found in each sample. In 25 And if you turn to the next page, she has a Page 473 Page 475 1 som e th ere's cleavages. In som e there's cleavages and 1 table; right? 2 needles. 2 A She does. 3 So w e know if it's a needle, it's betw een 6:1 3 Q A nd she has Talc I and she places it, its 4 and 15:1? 4 distribution o f fiber sizes and particle sizes, up 5 A Yes. 5 ag ain st reg u lar trem olite asbestos, d oesn't she? 6 Q A n d i f sh e finds fibers, it's ov er 15:1 aspect 6 A She does, yes. 7 ratio; right? 7 Q A nd Talc I traces trem olite asbestos pretty 8 A Yes. 8 closely? 9 Q Okay. 9 A Yes. 10 The next highlight: 10 Q Right. 11 "The shape distribution o f particles for 11 G o to her last page, w hich is near her 12 several sam ples w as determ ined. F igure 5 show s a 12 references. Lastly, she says: 13 p h o tograph o f a particle o f trem olite in sam ple I". 13 "In addition, the tendency to bring down a 14 N ow , o f course, old photocopy, you could 14 disproportional num ber o f larger particles has the 15 b arely see it? 15 advantage th at w ith true asbestiform am phiboles one 16 A Yeah. 16 generally sees som e particulars show ing bundles o f 17 Q O kay, but that's w hat's supposed to be there; 17 fibrils w hich rem oves any doubt about the nature o f the 18 okay? 18 am phibole". 19 A Yeah. 19 R ig h t? 20 Q "The particle is com posed o f fibrils." 20 A T hat's w h at sh e's w ritten, yes. 21 N ow , sir, you understand that asbestos if 21 Q A nd the picture she took from sample I o f that 22 it - if it breaks down all the w ay to its subparts, it 22 one fiber w as com posed o f m any fibrils; correct? 23 can be fibrils; right? 23 A That would appear to be the case. 24 A Correct, yes. 24 Q Now, look at the very last page. It tells you 25 Q B ut som etim es it com es in even bundles o f m any 25 the identification o f the different samples from A to 25 (Pages 472 - 475) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 476 Page 478 1 0 ; right? 1 A That appears to be the case, yes. 2 A Yes. 2 Q A ll right. 3 Q Sam ple I that contained all o f those cleavages, 3 This next one w ill be Exhibit 88. 4 needles and fibers was W indsor, Johnson & Johnson, 4 (Exhibit 88 m arked for identification) 5 Johnson's B aby Pow der; correct? 5 Now, this, o f course, w ould appear to be a 6 A That's w hat is w ritten, yes. 6 better copy o f B lount's paper, but we're not going to 7 Q Sam ples J, K, L and M were other Verm ont 7 go back through the paper. 8 deposits. 8 If you w ill turn to -- there's an attachm ent 9 M w as Troy; right? 9 to this --three pages in from the end, should be; 10 A Yes. 10 right? 11 Q Okay. 11 It's dated February 10,1992; right? 12 L et's go b a ck to the table th en on T able 1, 12 A Yes. 13 w hich is --the b o tto m o f th at pag e is 14434. 13 Q Okay. 14 So in J, K and L we know M w as Troy, but in 14 A nd A lice Blount, the article o f the paper 15 J, K an d L she identifies cleavages o f am phibole; 15 [sic] is w ritin g to som eone a t L uzenac; right? 16 correct? 16 A Yes. 17 A Yes. 17 Q Now, Luzenac is a worldwide talc supplier, or 18 Q W hat she calls cleavages, anything less than 18 w as before its nam e changed to R io T into and then 19 6:1; right? 19 Im erys; right? 20 A She calls that, yes. 20 A Correct, yes. 21 Q A nd in L she identifies needles, w hich w ould be 21 Q Okay. 22 6:1 to 15:1; right? 22 She w rites to this individual at Luzenac and 23 A That's correct. 23 she said: 24 Q So, sir, based on this, w e know that D r Blount 24 "Slim Thompson called recently about m y paper 25 in a published paper in 1991 identified fibers o f 25 in Environm ental Health Perspectives". Page 477 Page 479 1 asbestos in Johnson's B aby Pow der; correct? 1 A nd that's the paper you and I ju st looked 2 A She identifies an amphibole with the aspect 2 at; right? 3 ratio w e've described, yes. 3 A It is, yes. 4 Q A nd she fact says that it had a size 4 Q "He said that you had been in contact with him. 5 distribution sim ilar to asbestos; right? 5 I am not trying to cause the talc industry any 6 A She does, yes. 6 problems. I think lack o f knowledge is more a serious 7 Q A nd she also says at the very end, she says 7 problem . I have been told by the Industrial Hygienist 8 that i f it has particles show ing bundles o f fibrils, it 8 that consults for this institution that all talc 9 removes any doubt about the nature o f the amphibole; 9 contains asbestos and we should not use any products 10 correct? 10 containing talc. 11 A She states that. That's her opinion. 11 The reason I have carried out this study is 12 Q A ll right. 12 th at I am asked to analyze very pure talcs for 13 You aware o f any published criticism s o f Dr 13 am phiboles. I takes a g reat deal [it's p ro bably ju s t a 14 B lount's paper? 14 typo] I take a great deal o f tim e to do 100 fields o f 15 A No, I'm not aware o f that. 15 view . S om etim es it is necessary to go to 1000 fields 16 Q Okay. 16 o f view . It is not fun!" 17 W ere you --before I showed this to you, were 17 N ow , you know w hat she's talking about there, 18 y o u aw are th at th ere w as a pu b lish ed p a p er th at 18 fields o f view ? 19 actually addressed the asbestos content o f Johnson's 19 A Yes. 20 Baby Powder? 20 Q She's talking about looking at an electron 21 A I've not seen this paper before. 21 m icroscope grid; correct? 22 Q Okay. 22 A Yes, yes. 23 N ow , t h a t --ju s t fo r the record, th at w as a 23 Q A nd to scan 100 fields, m uch less 1,000, can 24 docum ent that w as provided to us by Johnson & Johnson 24 take a long time; right? 25 and had the Bates label on it; correct? 25 A Yes. 26 (Pages 476 - 479) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 480 Page 482 1 Q B ut the reason you m ight scan 100 or 1,000 is 1 (O ff the record at 12:00 noon) 2 to im prove your sensitivity; right? 2 (On the record at 12:02 pm ) 3 A Yes. 3 BY M R PANATIER: 4 Q Okay. 4 Q A ll right, sir. So w e're going to skip ahead 5 Let's go to the last paragraph: 5 in y ears now . W e're g o in g to go from '91 to 2002. 6 "As I told Slim Thompson I have analyzed m any 6 This w ill be Exhibit 91. 7 talc samples (only a few reported) and often blind, in 7 (Exhibit 91 m arked for identification) 8 that I did not know their sources at the tim e the 8 A Thank you. 9 analyses were done. I do not believe I am 9 This is an email chain, starting --starts on 10 m isrepresenting these talcs. F or individual deposits, 10 February 15, '02, ends on February 22, '02. 11 the shape d istribution a n d qu an tity rem ains fairly 11 Q Now, w ho is Lorena Telofski? 12 constant ov er tim e". 12 A She's a scientist in the research division o f 13 D id I read that right? 13 Joh n so n & Johnson. 14 A Y ou did. 14 Q A nd w e've already talked about Steven M ann and 15 Q So she's standing by her results; true? 15 his title is here, D irector o f T oxicology; right? 16 A Correct. 16 A Correct. 17 Q A nd if you look at the very last page, this is 17 Q For Johnson & Johnson Consum er Products 18 y e t an o th er list o f th e sam ples; right? 18 W orldw ide. 19 A Yes. 19 So he's --he's not a grunt, so to speak? 20 Q Okay. 20 A No. 21 A nd if you go to I, again, it says W indsor 21 Q H e's pretty high up? 22 Vermont baby powder? 22 A Yes. 23 A Yes. 23 Q Okay. 24 Q O nly one baby powder coming out o f W indsor 24 So he w rites to Lorena Telofski on 25 Verm ont; true? 25 February 15 and he says: Page 481 Page 483 1 A Yes. 1 "I'd like to tell the CTFA that w e are okay 2 Q That's Johnson's B aby Pow der? 2 with forwarding that literature] review to N TP". 3 A Yes. 3 Now, N TP is what? 4 Q A nd then J, K, L and M are all V erm ont talcs, 4 A It's the N ational Toxicology Program. 5 with M being Troy; right? 5 Q Okay. 6 A Yes. 6 "Did you have a suggestion on a sentence that 7 Q A nd it says "floated"; right? 7 addresses the fact that our source o f talc 'never' had 8 A I think that --yes, yes, it's handw ritten, so 8 asbestos in it". 9 yeah. 9 R ig h t? 10 Q So w e know that those are floated talcs? 10 A That's w hat it reads, yes. 11 A Yes. 11 Q Okay. 12 Q From Verm ont. Okay. R ight, sir. 12 A nd he puts "never" in quotes; right? 13 So I'm ju st going to put on our board for 13 A Yes. 14 1991 -- I'm going to w rite: B lo u n t pu b lish ed paper, 14 Q W hat does it m ean w hen someone puts something 15 am phibole cleavage, need les and fibers, a n d it w as in 15 in quotes? 16 Johnson's B ab y P ow der; correct? 16 A They want to draw attention to the word. 17 A Correct. 17 Q O kay, and that's how you read it? 18 Q That's a peer review journal; right. 18 A That's how I w ould read it, yes. 19 M S FRAZIER: The call got dropped. 19 Q O kay. Y ou can set that aside, sir. 20 M R PANATIER: Oh, the call got dropped again. 20 This is Exhibit 92. 21 O kay. L e t m e ju s t finish th is question. 21 (Exhibit 92 m arked for identification) 22 Q T hat is a peer review ed paper; right? 22 A ll right, sir. Y ou're certainly fam iliar 23 A It is, yes. 23 with this Exhibit; right? 24 Q I'll w rite peer review. 24 A Yes, w e've discussed this. 25 Right. Let's get back on the phone. 25 Q So in 2004, a T V station --it's K CRA TV 3 in 27 (Pages 480 - 483) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 484 Page 486 1 Sacramento, California --they run a story about 1 Blush; right? 2 asbestos in talc; right? 2 A Yes. 3 A They did, yes. 3 Q A n d i f y o u look a t the results, let's look at 4 Q Okay. 4 Revlon B lush first. N one detected; right? 5 A nd you can see that there's a fax on the 5 A Yes. 6 cover to Steven M ann from M ark -- is that M onseau? 6 Q A n d th en w e lo o k a t Johnson's B aby Pow der, and 7 A Monseau. 7 it says: asbestos type, or types, detected "AN". 8 Q M onseau -- from Corporate Com munications 8 You understand that to be anthophyllite; 9 regarding Asbestos, and it says: 9 right? 10 "Last w eek w e were contacted by a reporter at 10 A That's a reasonable supposition. 11 a S acram ento telev isio n statio n w h o w an ted to g et y o u r 11 Q Okay. 12 reactio n to a test th ey perfo rm ed on Johnson's B aby 12 A sbestos w eight percentage, .2 per cent; 13 Pow der. S he has since sen t m e the attached cover 13 right? 14 letter and lab results, w hich Sarah C olam arino 14 A That's w hat it reads. 15 suggested I share w ith you. C an yo u p lease review ? 15 Q N ow , .2 per cent, i f you w ere running X R D , for 16 Sarah w ill b e calling you shortly to discuss. In the 16 instance, on this sam ple, it w ould com e back 17 m eantim e, i f y o u hav e an y q u e s tio n s ,... give m e a 17 non-detect. 18 call". 18 That w ould be your expectation; right? 19 R ig h t? 19 A If that w as the only test you did. 20 A Yes. 20 Q Right? 21 Q A nd then there's the letter from the television 21 A Yes. 22 station to M ark M onseau; right? 22 Q O f course, these guys are using transmission 23 A Yes. 23 electron m icroscopy and they found anthophyllite 24 Q G reetings M r M onseau. T hank you for taking m y 24 asbestos in Johnson's B aby Pow der; correct? 25 call last w eek regarding K C R A TV 3's Special R eport on 25 A That's w hat they state they found, yes. Page 485 1 asbestos. This is a working story w ith no airdate. 1 2 O ur reporter/anchor Dave W alker is investigating the 2 3 existence o f harm ful levels o f asbestos in our 3 4 community. One o f the elem ents o f the story takes a 4 5 look at asbestos in household products and building 5 6 m aterials. 6 7 One o f the item s tested by Hayw ard Laboratory 7 8 w as Johnson's baby pow der, w hich tested at above norm a 8 9 levels for asbestos. 9 10 I am enclosing a copy o f the test and results 10 11 for yo u to lo o k over. I f y o u c o u ld p lease give m e a 11 12 call once y o u have rev iew ed the m aterial, I w o u ld like 12 13 to talk a b o u t the results w ith you". 13 14 Is that w hat he said? 14 15 A That's w hat it reads. 15 16 Q Then there's the lab report. D o you see that? 16 17 A Ido,yes. 17 18 Q Okay. 18 19 A nd this is from a com pany called Forensic 19 20 Analytical; right? 20 21 A Yes. 21 22 Q A nd you can see they did transm ission electron 22 23 m icroscopy on Johnson's B aby Pow der; correct? 23 24 A Yes. 24 25 Q They also did it on som ething called Revlon 25 Page 487 Q O kay. A ll right. N ow , y o u w ere aw are o f this because this issue cam e to your desk; right? A I w as aw are o f it because I read it in the past few w eeks as p art o f this deposition. Q Okay. A N o t to m y desk. Q Okay. A O nly in the last four w eeks. Q A ll right. A Few weeks. Q So this w as an independent lab hired b y a television station; right? A Y es, it's som eth in g a telev isio n statio n set up. Q Okay. A nd th at lab, do y o u have any criticism s o f F orensic A nalytical, their credibility, their qualifications, anything? A I k n o w no th in g ab o u t th at particu lar lab. Q A ll right. A It's n o t o n e th at's u sed in th e industry, to m y know ledge. Q R ight. Sure. N o w , th a t w a s d a te d F e b ru a ry 2 4 , '04; rig h t? 28 (Pages 484 - 487) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 488 Page 490 1 A Yes. 1 Specification". 2 Q Okay. 2 N ow , you don't state that you dispute the 3 I'm going to w rite K CRA TV and they hire an 3 report at all, do you? 4 independent lab, .2 --w as it .2 per cent? 4 A N o, but to be honest, I don't believe I've ever 5 A Yeah. 5 seen the actual report. 6 Q .2 per cent anthophyllite in Johnson's Baby 6 It could well have been a verbal 7 Powder. 7 comm unication betw een m yself and Steven Mann. 8 T here should be no asbestos in Johnson's Baby 8 Q A nd that's fair. 9 Pow der ever, m uch less in 2004; right? 9 A Yeah. 10 A Correct. 10 Q He certainly w ould have told you the subject 11 Q Okay. 11 m atter o f the report? 12 A If that is a correct analysis, yeah. 12 A Yes. 13 Q Right. 13 Q A nd the results? 14 N ow , do you know if Johnson's got involved in 14 A Yes. 15 any w ay to stop th at report from g oing on the T V o r did 15 Q Okay. 16 it play? 16 "A certificate as such from an independent 17 A I've no idea. 17 source (R J L ee) is an easier w ay o f dealing w ith 18 Q Right. 18 non-experts (ie m edia) than talking about the various 19 A It could have played. 19 kinds o f m ineralology o f talc". 20 Q Okay. 20 Now, did you believe that there was some sort 21 This next exhibit will be Exhibit 93. 21 o f m ineralogical defense to this report? 22 (Exhibit 93 m arked for identification) 22 A I think the issue, and it's fair to sum m arize 23 T here you go, sir. 23 it, is that the laboratory that w as conducting the w ork 24 The reason I asked if it came across your 24 was not one that was recognized in the cosmetic 25 desk was because I have this email betw een you and 25 industry or the pharm aceutical industry as having Page 489 Page 491 1 Steven M ann, w h o received the correspondence from the 1 expertise and long experience in assaying for asbestos 2 television station; right? 2 or asbestiforms or this kind of material in talc. 3 A Yes. 3 So it really was a case of is that - can we 4 Q Okay. 4 rely on these people? Can we not rely on these people? 5 A nd at this tim e in '04 you were - 5 Get an alternative opinion. 6 A A consultant. 6 Q So if a company like Colgate Palmolive hired 7 Q - a consultant; you w eren't w orking for 7 the very same microscopist to analyze samples of their 8 Johnson & Johnson? 8 talc, they shouldn't have done that? 9 A N o t full-tim e, no. 9 A I couldn't say that, because what I can say, 10 Q Okay. 10 speaking for Johnson & Johnson, is that any company 11 It looks like you guys talked because you 11 that Johnson & Johnson would work with would be people 12 start this em ail w ith: 12 where there was expertise that had been proven over a 13 "Steve. 13 period of time. 14 A s an afterth o u g h t..." 14 It's a reasonable thing to do. 15 R ig h t? 15 Q You mentioned RJ Lee here; right? 16 A Yeah. 16 A Yes. 17 Q So you guys m ust have spoken by the phone or 17 Q And you say an "independent source"; right? 18 som ething? 18 A Yes. 19 A Y eah, w e occasionally --he's a toxicologist, 19 Q Now, by this point RJ Lee had been doing work 20 and we occasionally spoke by phone. 20 for Johnson & Johnson on a fairly regular basis for at 21 Q Okay. 21 least a decade; right? 22 He says: 22 A Yes, yes. 23 "A s an afterthought, I w ould m ake a 23 Q And they were --they had been a consultant to 24 suggestion that it is im portant that you ensure 24 Johnson & Johnson for at least a decade by that point; 25 compliance o f the current talc w ith the CTFA 25 correct? 29 (Pages 488-491) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 492 Page 494 I A Correct, and the reality is that here in the 1 Q W ho w as really the m ain guy on talc. 2 U nited States, or anyw here else around the world, 2 As you said, I think, he was Talc at Johnson 3 there's only a tiny handful o f people that you can 3 & Johnson? 4 actually go to and say, "A ct independently for me, 4 A H e had 50 -- 50-odd years o f experience o f talc 5 analyze this material, give m e a report". 5 at Johnson & Johnson, yes. 6 There is literally --you can count them on 6 Q A nd w as Bill Ashton respected at Johnson & 7 the fingers o f one hand. 7 Johnson through his whole time there? 8 Q So do you know whether or not Johnson & Johnson 8 A I w ould say so, yes. 9 has actually hired R J Lee as experts in this case? 9 Q Okay. 10 A Idonotknow .no. 10 W as he som eone who sort o f had the final word 11 Q Okay. 11 on talc issues? 12 And were you aware from your review o f the 12 A N ot necessarily the final word, but an 13 docum ents th at Johnson & Johnson actually paid 13 im portant w ord. 14 consultants from R J Lee to go to C hina w hen C hina had 14 Q Okay. 15 an issue w ith asbestos in th eir talc? 15 A nd did Johnson & Johnson regularly follow 16 A I w as not aware o f that, no. 16 his guidance on talc issues? 17 Q All right. That w as in about 2009, so you 17 A H e had -- he's no longer w ith us, b ut he had a 18 w o u ld hav e b een a consultant then? 18 lo t o f ex perience an d expertise an d th at w o u ld alw ays 19 A Yes, yes. 19 be given a high value. 20 Q Do you know who D rew V an O rden is? 20 Q Okay. 21 A N o, I don't. 21 D uring the period o f tim e --and let's just 22 Q Okay. 22 say late '60s and '70s; okay? 23 A ll right. So you say here --you say: 23 A M mmhmm. 24 "You can then enlist [the] CTFA as a buffer 24 Q M r Ashton w as a senior individual on the issue 25 to deal w ith these issues". 25 o f talc; fair? Page 493 Page 495 1 So you're telling Steven M ann at Johnson & 1 A Correct. 2 Johnson he can enlist the trade organization that 2 Q I f not the top individual? 3 Johnson & Johnson is a m em ber o f as a buffer, what, 3 A Correct. 4 betw een the com pany and the media? 4 Q Okay. A ll right. Now , let's go ahead and go 5 A It's a n option. Y o u can do it. Y ou can choose 5 off the record. 6 to do it or to choose n ot to do it. 6 (O ff the record at 12:15 pm) 7 It is com m on practice to use the trade 7 (On the record at 12:55 pm) 8 association as part o f the public face o f the industry. 8 BY M R PANATIER: 9 Q Okay. 9 Q A ll right, sir. So this w ill be Exhibit 94. 10 A Because this is ju st one particular product, 10 (Exhibit 94 m arked for identification) 11 b u t the w h o le industry could be cross co ntam inated in a 11 So after you and I had our conversations 12 sense b y b a d publicity. 12 about y our application to be part o f an IA R C w orking 13 So it makes sense to use a trade association 13 g roup in som e capacity, I w en t back an d looked through 14 to convey w hat you w ant to say. 14 som e m ore emails. 15 Q A nd you say: 15 So this is Exhibit 94. There you go. 16 "Feel free to call anytim e. A lso I know Bill 16 Y ou can see there's tw o em ails there. The 17 A shton w o u ld w a n t to h elp a n d is O K to call a t hom e. 17 earlier is at the bottom o f the page; right? 18 In fact h e w o u ld ex pect to b e in volved i f h is m ineral 18 A Okay. 19 expertise c o u ld be o f value". 19 Q A nd it's from w ho? Linda Loretz? Is that how 20 A nd you give his phone num ber, w hich is 20 you say her name? 21 redacted here; right? 21 A Linda Loretz. 22 A Yes. 22 Q L oretz --and it's to undisclosed recipients. 23 Q Now, Bill A shton was the fellow w e started to 23 But who is she? 24 talk about yesterday? 24 A She w as at the CTPA, yeah, at the time. 25 A Yes, yes. 25 Q So she's at the trade organization; right? 30 (Pages 492 - 495) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 496 Page 498 1 A Yes, yes. 1 Q W hat is babycenter.com ? 2 Q A nd I highlighted a part o f a paragraph down 2 A I don't know. 3 there. Can you please read w hat I highlighted that she 3 Q Okay. 4 wrote? 4 A I don't know. 5 M R GAFFREY: Can we get a date on that? 5 Q I w ant to show you here there's a website 6 M RPANATIER: Y e a h - 6 called babycenter.com , and I'll show you an excerpt o f 7 T H E W ITN E SS: Y eah, I'll read it: 7 it. 8 "The International A gency for Research on 8 This will be Exhibit 95. 9 Cancer (IARC) has scheduled a re-evaluation o f 9 (Exhibit 95 m arked for identification) 10 non-asbestiform talc for carcinogenicity. The W orking 10 Can you see down at the bottom for 11 G roup m eetin g w ill take p lace on F eb ruary 7 -1 4 ,2 0 0 6 . 11 b abycenter.com -- 12 IA R C is accep tin g nom inations for experts to serve on 12 A Yes. 13 th e W orking G roup th at w ill evaluate talc; the purpose 13 Q - it says: 14 o f this e-m ail is to see if [the] T ask Force m em bers 14 "B a b y C e n te r... [.com ] is p a rt o f the Johnson 15 hav e suggestions fo r experts to nom inate". 15 & Johnson f a m i l y ..."? 16 B Y M R PA N A T IE R : 16 A It actually says: 17 Q Okay. 17 "B abyC enter L L C ..." 18 She is a sending an email to a group o f 18 Q M mmhmm? 19 peo p le a n d sh e is saying th a t IA R C is looking for 19 A "... is a m em b er o f the Johnson & Johnson 20 nom inations for experts; right? 20 fa m ily ..." 21 A That's m y read, yes. 21 Yeah. 22 Q Okay, and then go to the follow up email at the 22 Q Okay. Right. 23 top. That's from who? 23 W hat does that mean? 24 A It's from Steven Mann. 24 A W ell, you know, I've not read this before, but 25 Q A ll right. H e's at Johnson & Johnson; right? 25 I'll read it. Page 497 Page 499 1 A Yes. 1 "A bout B abyC enter L L C ..." 2 Q To who? 2 It im plies that: 3 A To Linda Loretz. 3 "In the U nited States, 8 in 10 new and 4 Q A t the trade organization? 4 expectant m om s online u se B abyC enter each m o n th ... 5 A The trade organization, yes. 5 provides parents w ith trusted inform ation, a d v ic e ... 6 Q A nd w hat is the first line he says there? 6 s u p p o r t... P roducts include w ebsites, m obile apps, 7 A Says: 7 online communities, email series, social programs, 8 "J&J w ould like to offer the following expert 8 print publications, and public health initiatives". 9 nam es fo r c o n sid e ra tio n ..." 9 So it w ould im ply that it's providing 10 Q A nd w ho's the first nam e he lists? 10 inform ation to new m om s. 11 A It's D r John Hopkins. 11 Q Okay, and it's som ething Johnson & Johnson 12 Q A nd that's you? 12 runs; right? 13 A Correct. 13 A Yes, it would appear to be the case, yes. 14 Q So you were being offered as an expert to the 14 Q Okay. 15 IA R C w o rk in g group; correct? 15 Right. Y ou can set that aside. N ext will be 16 A This w ould indicate that I was being proposed 16 E xhibit 96. 17 as a possible expert, yes. 17 (Exhibit 96 m arked for identification) 18 Q A ll right. 18 There you go. 19 Can you hand that back to m e, so I can get 19 This is from babycenter.com . W e pulled this 20 the date on the record. 6.23.05. All right. 20 o ff the site in January. There's a flag there. Can 21 Sir, w hat is -- have you visited Johnson & 21 you go to that flag? 22 Johnson's w ebsite ju st to see w hat it looks like or be 22 I think this is under the heading o f baby 23 fam iliar w ith it? 23 rash. Do you see that? 24 A N ot in the recent months, no. I had no reason 24 A Yes. 25 to. 25 Q O kay, o r diaper rash, I'm sorry. N ot baby 31 (Pages 496 - 499) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 500 Page 502 1 rash. 1 Q There's currently one that has a little picture 2 T here's a red box I p ut around a paragraph 2 o f a baby's face w ith an X over the baby's m outh and 3 there. Can you go ahead and read that out loud? 3 nose; right? 4 A Okay. It says: 4 A Yes. From memory, yes. 5 "Skip the powder, as the dust can be harmful 5 Q Right. 6 to your child[ren]'s lungs if inhaled. I f you w ant to 6 W hen w as the first tim e that went on there? 7 use pow der, choose one that's m ade from cornstarch". 7 A W e discussed this yesterday. I believe in the 8 Q Okay. 8 early 1980s. 9 So BabyCenter, w hich is part o f Johnson & 10 Johnson, is saying skip the pow der, it co u ld be 9 Q Okay. 10 A Yeah. 11 dangerous to bab y 's lungs; right? 11 Q N ow , m y question, though, is -- w e also 12 A That's w hat it says in this document. 12 discussed this yesterday, w hich is i f you use pow der in 13 Q A nd it says if you w ant to use powder, use 13 an y w ay , even i f y o u d o n't purposefully po w d er near 14 cornstarch; right? 14 your face, you're still going to breathe in som e o f 15 A It's w hat it says in this document. 15 that pow der; right? 16 Q Okay. 16 A Technically possible, yes. 17 Now , Johnson & Johnson is still selling talc 17 Q So even if you just try to keep powder away 18 p o w d er fo r babies; right? 18 from a baby's face a n d use it on th eir bottom o r their 19 A Correct. 19 diaper region, they're still going to inhale som e o f 20 Q So this is Exhibit 97. 20 the powder; correct? 21 (Exhibit 97 m arked for identification) 21 A Theoretically. 22 I pulled this o ff o f Johnson's w ebsite ju st 22 23 to show that if you w ant to go buy talcum pow der that's 23 Q I m ean, more likely than not they are? A Okay. N ever proven that. I've not seen any 24 m ade by Johnson's, you can buy it; right? 24 m edical evidence o f looking at a baby's lungs before 25 A Yes. 25 and after diapering. Page 501 Page 503 1 Q B ut it seems like BabyCenter, w hich is run by 1 So it's theoretical. 2 Johnson & Johnson, is saying don't use pow der on 2 Q W e w e'd have to lo o k -- 3 babies; right? 3 A It's speculative. 4 A W ell, that's w hat it states. 4 Q --w e'd have to look in baby's lungs to know 5 Q Right. 5 that? 6 A Yes. 6 A It's speculative, yeah. A t this stage, it's 7 Q So in one place Johnson & Johnson is saying 7 speculative. 8 don't use pow der on babies, but they're still selling 8 Q That's really an experim ent w e can't do? 9 the powder; right? 9 A Absolutely. 10 A That's the - yes, that's the outcom e. 10 Q Right. 11 Q That's an inconsistent position at best; right? 11 A No, no. 12 A Yes. 12 Q Right. Okay. 13 Q A ll right. 13 So is Johnson & Johnson willing to accept 14 So is there anything, to yo u r know ledge, is 14 that, m ore likely than not, if a baby is pow dered with 15 th ere an y label o r w arn in g o n Jo hnson's B ab y P ow der 15 talcu m pow der, som e o f th at w ill b e inhaled b y the 16 th at says, "D on't use this"? 16 baby, m ore likely than not? 17 A No. 17 A Technically, it's theoretically possible, but 18 Q Okay. 18 it's still speculative. 19 A ll right. Y ou can set that aside, sir. 19 Q L et m e ask you the reverse, then. 20 A Thank you. 20 Johnson & Johnson is not saying that babies 21 Q Is there any w arning or label on Johnson's Baby 21 do not inhale the talcum pow der w hen it is used on 22 Pow der that says, "This can be dangerous to baby's 22 them, are they? 23 lungs if inhaled"? 23 A No. 24 A There is a warning, from m y recollection, on 24 Q Okay. 25 the pow der about keep aw ay from baby's nose and mouth 25 This w ill be Exhibit 98. 32 (Pages 500 - 503) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 504 1 (Exhibit 98 m arked for identification) 1 A Yes. Page 506 2 These are just some o f the old advertisem ents 2 Q A nd there is a w arning there that's prescribed 3 that we w ere provided by Johnson & Johnson. 3 for the labeling; right? 4 A nd the only date I can m ake out is on the 4 A Yes. 5 last page. N ear the bottom there's a handw ritten date. 5 Q W hat does that say? 6 It says April, 1933? 6 A "W arning: For external use only. Keep out o f 7 A That's w hat it says, yeah. 7 [the] reach o f children. Close tightly after use. Do 8 Q Right. 8 not use on broken skin. A void contact w ith [the] eyes. 9 All o f these look to be about the same 9 K eep pow der aw ay from child[ren]'s face to avoid 10 vintage. W o u ld y o u agree w ith that? 10 inhalation, w hich can cause breathing problem s." 11 A Yes. 11 Q N ow , that's '92. 12 Q Okay. 12 Do you know whether or not that went on there 13 A Yeah. 13 prio r t o '92? 14 Q So let's ju st talk about the one on the front. 14 A I believe it did. 15 It's allegedly a baby talking to his father 15 Q Okay. 16 ab out h o w h o t it w as a n d h o w ch afed he got; right? 16 W hen w as the first tim e it did? 17 A M m m hmm, yes, yes. 17 A I can only estimate. I thought it was in the 18 Q Okay. 18 1980s. 19 (Reporter clarification) 19 Q Okay. That's fine. So let's assum e that. 20 A nd then it says: 20 A Yeah. 21 "The C hief Chemist says baby powders are 21 Q 1980s. 22 different, largely because o f the difference in talcs. 22 Now , everything about that w arning are things 23 T h e costly Italian talc u sed in Johnson's B aby P ow der 23 th at w ere kn o w n to Johnson & Johnson fo r decades b e fo r 24 is m ade up o f soft tiny flakes, but the cheaper talc 24 the 1980s; correct? 25 used for som e baby powders contains sharp, needle-like 25 A Yes, I m ean, w hat it's suggesting here is that Page 505 Page 507 1 particles". 1 good parental behavior w ould keep baby pow der --it 2 So they're saying other brands m ay have 2 applies to baby lotion, or anything else --aw ay from 3 needle-like particles; right? 3 baby. So it's not a toy. 4 A Correct. 4 Q So if a baby accidently aspires a whole lot o f 5 Q "The trained observer readily sees this 5 th at talc, it's the parent's fault? It's n o t Johnson & 6 difference under a m icroscope and you can feel it 6 Johnson's fault for not putting a child pro o f lid on 7 yourself this way. R ub a little Johnson's B aby Pow der 7 it; right? 8 betw een your thum b and finger, then try another powder. 8 A N o, it's --there is a point at which 9 Y ou'll know soon enough if it's m ade w ith inferior 9 responsibility for good parenting or use o f a product 10 talc". 10 isn't ju st the responsibility o f the com pany. 11 N ow , let m e ask you this: a consum er can't 11 Y ou --you know, as a parent, you should have 12 feel talc an d k now w h eth er o r n o t there's asbestos 12 the com m on sense to n ot treat this as a toy, and 13 there; correct? 13 b asically y o u w o u ld n ot place th is in b aby's hands or 14 A Correct. 14 leave it w here baby could grab hold o f it. 15 Q A ll right. Y ou can set that aside, sir. 15 Q And I think any parent w ould agree w ith you 16 This w ill be Exhibit 99. 16 that parents are to be responsible for their babies and 17 (Exhibit 99 m arked for identification) 17 children; right? 18 Sorry, I only have one copy o f it, but would 18 A Correct. 19 y o u like to see it, Sharia? 19 Q But Johnson & Johnson also knows that this 20 MS FROST: Yes, please. 20 product was typically stored and kept right next to the 21 M R PANATIER: Thanks. 21 baby's changing table; right? 22 Q A ll right, sir. So w e w ere talking about 22 A Again, that's speculative. 23 w arnings on the packages. So this is one that we got 23 I w as a parent w ith a lot o f children. W e 24 from Johnson & Johnson. That one's dated 1992; do you 24 never kept our baby pow der w here our kids could grab 25 see that? 25 hold o f it. It w as som ething you kept on the sh elf in 33 (Pages 504 - 507) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 508 1 the --in a cupboard, ready for diapering and changing. 1 to inhale; right? Page 510 2 Q W ell, you worked for J& J; right? 2 A Yes. 3 A Yes. 3 Q Okay. 4 Q Okay. 4 So this will be Exhibit 101. 5 A I did. 5 (Exhibit 101 marked for identification) 6 Q So let m e ask this question: is it 6 So you said Johnson & Johnson stayed up on 7 irresponsible o f parents to keep the baby pow der at the 7 the literature. 8 changing station for the baby? 8 Can you see this is from The New England 9 A I w ouldn't judge parents' responsibility or 9 Journal O f Medicine? 10 irresponsibility. I'm not going to criticize parents. 10 A Yes. 11 But w hat I w ould say, and, you know, having 11 Q Right. That's a pretty big prominent journal; 12 b e en a p aren t m y se lf o f little babies, is th at good 12 right? 13 p arenting, y o u u se com m on sense. 13 A Yes. 14 Y ou know , if you've got products -- could be 14 Q This is dated January 4,1962; true? 15 b a b y sham poo --y o u d o n't w a n t to get th at in y o u r -- 15 A True. 16 y o u d o n 't w a n t to g e t th at in y o u r m outh. 16 Q And it's entitled Fatal Aspiration o f Talcum 17 There's lots o f products that babies will 17 Powder by a Child, Report o f a Case by Molnar, et 18 grab a ho ld of, a n d y o u see th at w ith babies. I f 18 cetera, in New York City; right? 19 you've got a baby, you've had a baby, they have this 19 A Yes. 20 grabbing action. They'll grab hold o f anything, and 20 Q And the intro paragraph says: 21 m um s certainly know this, and they give baby a little 21 "The talcum-powder container, often a 22 toy to distract them w hile they're changing. 22 favorite plaything o f small children, may be a source 23 So it's not unusual to say, yeah, w e know 23 o f tragedy in the home. The case reported below 24 babies w ill grab this. A good parent will know that, 24 demonstrates a rapidly fatal course in a 25 and in this case you'd say you keep the product well 25 twenty-two-month-old child, who aspirated talcum powder Page 509 Page 511 1 away from baby. 1 while playing with such a container". 2 Q A nd that's certainly good advice. 2 R ig h t? 3 But Johnson & Johnson had every expectation 3 A Correct. That's w hat it states. 4 that many, many, m any parents w ould have this baby 4 Q It's publications like these that you w ould 5 pow der right next to the changing station; right? 5 expect J& J to have been aware of? 6 A Again, it's speculative. I cannot speculate 6 A Yes. 7 that the company would think that the product could be 7 Q Okay. 8 right next in - literally, in hand's reach or arm 's 8 A nd they probably could have gone down to 9 reach o f a sm all baby. 9 their own library and pulled out this edition o f The 10 It's speculative. 10 N ew E ngland Journal O f M edicine; right? 11 Q Johnson & Johnson stayed apprized o f the 11 A Ifs possible, yeah. 12 literature p ertain in g to talc throughout the last 12 Q Okay. 13 century; correct? 13 A nd this is in '62. Certainly if Johnson & 14 A Correct. 14 Johnson had cared to, they could have placed a warning 15 Q Right. That's a responsible thing to do; 15 pertain in g to the p o tential fatal hazards o f m assive 16 right? 16 aspiration o f talc onto their product then; right? 17 A Yes. 17 A It's possible, yeah. It's a speculation, b ut 18 Q Okay. 18 it's possible. 19 B y the way, the first tim e that Johnson & 19 Q Okay. Y ou can set that aside, sir. 20 Johnson ever said this could be dangerous to a baby is 20 M S FROST: W as that one 101, did you say? 21 in the '80s, according to you; right? 21 M R PA NATIER: Y es, that's 101. 22 A I believe that was about the tim e, yes. 22 T his next one is 102. 23 Q Okay. 23 (Exhibit 102 m arked for identification) 24 So before that, a parent m ight know it's 24 T here you go, sir. 25 dusty, but they m ight not know it's dangerous to a baby 25 THE W ITNESS: Thank you. 34 (Pages 5 0 8-511) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 512 Page 514 1 BY M R PANATIER: 1 A Yes. It's to him. 2 Q N ow , sir, this one is entitled - there's an 2 Q To him. O kay. Yes, you're right. 3 article here, and this is from The Journal o f the south 3 A H e's not the author. 4 Carolina M edical Association, and this one is entitled 4 Q It is from som eone nam ed NA Poirier? 5 Poisoning O f The M onth, D usting Pattern Inhalation. 5 A Yes. 6 D id you see that? 6 Q Okay. 7 A Yes. 7 It says: 8 Q N ow , I'm going to represent to you I think this 8 "A historical survey o f JO H N SO N 'S Baby Pow der 9 is 1962 or '63. 9 has been conducted. The information for the survey was 10 Y ou can see in the references that they 10 com piled from the files o f the Johnson and Johnson 11 actually cite th e M o ln ar p a p er - 11 m useum . 12 A Yeah. 12 The first Baby Pow der form ula was found in a 13 Q -- that w ith ju st looked at. 13 m e m o ra n d u m ... A pril 8 ,1 9 0 7 ". 14 A They do, yes. 14 N ow , Johnson's w as m aking and selling baby 15 Q Right. A ll right. 15 p o w d e r fo r 30 plu s y ears befo re 1907; right? 16 "This 14 m onth old infant w as apparently well 16 A It's actually 1894. 17 until ap p roxim ately five h ours p rio r to adm ission a t 17 Q 1894. Okay. 18 w hich tim e she w as lying on the b e d w hile h e r m other 18 It turns out the first form ula they could 19 changed h e r diaper. A n o p en b o x o f dusting po w d er w as 19 fin d w as from 1907, apparently. 20 on the bed beside the infant the m other kept her hands 20 A Yes, yes. 21 o n the b a b y w hile turning h er h e ad to speak to another 21 Q N ow , let's go under the form ulas, okay. 22 child and the infant reached for the box o f pow der and 22 So in 1926 -- w ell, let m e ask you this: in 23 turned it over on her face. The infant imm ediately 23 1910, do we know what the source o f the talc was, from 24 coughed and had some respiratory distress". 24 1910 to 1923? 25 A nd then you can see dow n near the bottom: 25 A W e believe it's Italian 00000. Page 513 Page 515 1 "Respiration becom e increasingly more labored 1 Q Okay. 2 and finally ceased five hours after admission". 2 Then in 1926, it says: 3 So this is a death case; correct? 3 "Started to change from California Talc to 4 A It's a - y e s . 4 E G T ... 00000 Italian T alc"? 5 Q Okay. 5 A Yes. 6 N ow , again, this is - it w as nothing special 6 Q W ould that suggest that, actually before 1926, 7 to understand that if som eone, especially a child, 7 it was all California talc. 8 inhales a lot o f a powder - could be any powder, 8 A N ot necessarily. M y understanding is that 9 including talc --it could kill them? 9 Italian was used certainly at the very beginning. 10 A Yes. 10 There m ay well have been a point during the 11 Q Right. 11 D epression, w h ich is w here w e're looking at, w here 12 A gain, th is Oin the '60s, th ere w as every 12 m aybe it w as difficult to get Italian talc. 13 opportunity, i f Johnson & Jo h n so n h a d cared to, to 13 It's speculative. I w ouldn't be certain. 14 place that w arning that they did in the 1980s o r early 14 Q Okay. 15 '90s on th e product; right? 15 So if you look in the second big paragraph at 16 A Yeah. 16 the top, it says: 17 Q O kay. Y ou can set that aside, sir. 17 "Any ingredient w hich is not m entioned in any 18 This w ill be Exhibit 103. 18 particular change is present as show n in the next 19 (Exhibit 103 m arked for identification) 19 previous change in w hich the given ingredient is 20 Sir, this is a Johnson & Johnson memo; 20 described". 21 correct? 21 A Yes. 22 A Correct. 22 Q Right. 23 Q From July 13, 1966. It's entitled Johnson's 23 So if we read that and then we look at the - 24 Baby Pow der Historical Survey, M r W H Ashton. 24 at least what's w ritten here, it w ould suggest the 25 So this is Bill Ashton; right? 25 California talc w as the talc that w as being used to 35 (Pages 512 - 515) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 516 Page 518 1 prior to '26; right? 1 A Yes. 2 A It w ould indicate that that was a possibility, 2 Q A nd that dom estic was what? 3 yes, yes. 4 Q A ll right. 3 A W ell, unless they've changed the source, it w as 4 som ething called California P special. 5 So it says '26: 5 Q A ll right, and that's w hat you presum e from 6 "S tarted to change ... to Italian 00000 ..." 6 that? 7 R ig h t? 7 A Yeah. W e have no other information to say 8 A Yes. 8 other than that. 9 Q Okay. 9 Q T hen in July o f '41, it's 100 per cent that 10 T hen it says in 1926 b y D ecem ber 9: 10 dom estic talc; right? 11 "On Italian talc permanently". 11 A Yes. 12 T hat looks like it continues until January, 12 Q Okay. 13 1941; correct? 13 The next change is February, 1945. The 100 14 A Correct. 14 p er cent is changed back to 75 dom estic and 25 Italian; 15 Q Then it changes to Italian and California 15 right? 16 50/50; right? 16 A Yes. 17 A Yes. 17 Q I take it some o f the Italian was getting 18 Q A nd it says California "P special". 18 through at that point? 19 W hat's that? 19 A Yes. 20 A Again, I - 1 9 41,1 don't know w hat "P special" 20 Q Y ou said the G erm an U -boats were sinking ships. 21 w as. 21 They w ere sinking Italian ships? Because they were 22 P m ay stand for "pharmaceutical" grade. 22 team mates. Y ou understand that; right? 23 It's - it w as obviously a grade that m et the 23 A Yes. Their leaders w ere team mates. I w on't 24 requirements o f the company. 24 say anymore, but I have done a lot o f history. 25 Q O kay, b ut you don't really know w hat P m eans? 25 The Italians were happy to ship if they could Page 517 Page 519 1 A N o, I do not. 1 get it through. 2 Q Okay. 2 Q You were never a U-boat captain, were you? 3 A nd do you know w ho the supplier w as o f the 3 A No, indeed. 4 California talc during this period? 4 Q Okay. A ll right. 5 A Id o n o t.n o . 5 1946, April - 6 Q Okay. 6 A I w asn't even bom . Com e on. 7 The Italian 00000 is your V al Chisone talc; 7 Q Okay. That's fair. I believe you. 8 right? 8 April 5, 1946, it looks like they w ould use 9 A That's correct, yes, yes. 9 one bag --one 220 pound bag o f Italian with four and a 10 Q Okay. 10 h a lf 50 pound bags o f dom estic, w hich looks like that 11 Then in 1941, the next change is 75 per cent 11 w ould be ro u g h ly 50/50; right? 12 dom estic an d 25 p e r cen t Italian; right? 12 A Yes. 13 A Correct. 13 Q Okay. 14 Q Actually, the Italians were opposing us in a 14 It looks like they w ere trying to use -- 15 w o rld w a r a t th at point; is th at right? 15 trying get to 100 per cent talc - Italian; right? 16 A W ell, they w ould have been happy to ship, but 16 A Yes. 17 the G erm ans w ere sinking th eir ships. 17 Q So in '46, it becom es 100 per cent Italian 18 Q W ell, to be clear, I m ean -- 18 talc; (rue? 19 A It w asn't getting through. 19 A Yes. 20 Q -- let's n ot do a history lesson here, but 20 Q Okay. 21 Italy w as p a rt o f the A xis? 21 A nd then in '54, it goes to 60 per cent 22 A Yes. 22 Italian talc, and then 40 p er cent Extra Prim a talc. 23 Q Right. Okay. 23 W hat's that? 24 A nd so the Italian talc was 25 per cent and 24 A I don't know. It's a term I've not come 25 75 per cent was dom estic; right? 25 across. So, yeah. 36 (Pages 51 6 -5 1 9 ) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 520 Page 522 1 Q Okay. You can set that aside. 1 penetrate the skin, and cause irritation; consequently, 2 This w ould be Exhibit 104. 2 talcs exceeding trace contents have never been 3 (Exhibit 104 m arked for identification) 3 approved. Over the past year or two, the medical 4 Right. This is April 9 ,1 9 6 9 , from Bill 4 literature has m ade reference to potential hazards o f 5 Ashton to D r Gavin Hildick-Sm ith; right? 5 talcs containing Trem olite and I have seen some 6 A Yes. 6 articles under the um bra o f environmental health 7 Q O kay, and the subject is Alternate Dom estic 7 agencies from here and abroad w hich pinpoint severe 8 Talc Sources. 8 objections to that mineral in talcum powders". 9 So it's '69, y o u guys are already running 9 So here he's addressing the fact that in the 10 V erm ont, right, and using V erm ont talc; true? 10 literature, w hich is som ething he stayed abreast of; 11 A Yes. 11 right? 12 Q Okay. 12 A H e's obviously read it, yes. 13 It says: 13 Q Okay --that there are objections for potential 14 " P e te ..." 14 health hazards for trem olite in talc; correct? 15 I guess Ashton called him Pete? 15 A That's w hat he's stating. 16 A T hat was --that was the nam e we all called 16 Q A ll right. N ow , skip down to the next 17 him , yeah. 17 highlight. H e 's talk in g ab o u t trem olite. 18 Q Okay. 18 Now: 19 A It w asn't his real name. 19 "Some varieties o f it m atch asbestos, and I 20 Q Okay. You knew him? 20 gather there has been a lot o f attention given to the 21 A Yes. 21 hazards o f inhaling m inerals o f that type lately". 22 Q Okay. 22 Over the top o f the second page: 23 "Pete, we have to firm up the position the 23 "There is nothing w e can do about the 24 Com pany should have on the presence o f the mineral 24 confused state o f affairs on Trem olite from the 25 trem olite in talc. Y our staff w ill have to do this for 25 m ineralogical and chem ical points o f view as far as Page 521 Page 523 1 us since the objections to that m ineral have been 1 historic literature is concerned. 2 mainly m edical or clinical as opposed to chem ical or 2 T he q u estion is ... H o w bad is T rem olite 3 physical". 3 m edically, and how m uch o f it can safely be in a talc 4 Right. So Ashton is bringing up the fact 4 base w e m ight develop?" 5 that the m ineral trem olite m ay have m edical or clinical 5 Now, he describes on paragraph 3 on the first 6 objections brought against it; correct? 6 page, he says: 7 A H e's raising that as a possibility, yes. 7 "... T rem olite has been --in our C om pany, 8 Q Okay. 8 Trem olite has been bad because it has a needle-type -- 9 N ow , by 1969, in looking at the Battelle 9 needle-type crystals". 10 stuff, w e've seen yesterday, right -- w e've seen dozens 10 Right? 11 o f findings a t a m inim um o f T rem olite in the talc b eing 11 A That's w hat he states. 12 used; correct? 12 Q A nd you said in your report from 2015 that 13 A T hat was reported. 13 asbestos -- it's the asbestos n eedles w hich can em bed 14 Q Okay. 14 in tissue and cause m esotheliom a; correct? 15 A Yes. 15 A Asbestos -- asbestos can em bed and cause 16 Q "The reason w e have to firm up our position is 16 m esotheliom a, yes, although trem olite can exist in a 17 th at w e h av e m o v ed into hig h g ear on som e alternate 17 m assive form , w hich is n ot asbestos. 18 talc sources an d it is norm al to fin d d ifferent levels 18 Q W e understand that, but the term that you used 19 o f T rem olite in m an y U S talcs". 19 in your report w as "needles o f asbestos"; right? 20 Okay, and that - certainly, Johnson & 20 A Needles o f asbestos, yes. 21 Johnson talc w as no exception; correct? 21 Q Okay. Y ou can set that aside. 22 A Correct. 22 So he w rites this m em o in '69 w here he's 23 Q "Historically, in our Com pany, Trem olite has 23 concerned about the m edical aspects o f trem olite in the 24 been bad because it has needle-type crystals. Our 24 talc; right? 25 position has been that these can stand on end, 25 A H e's asking a question o f the m edically 37 (Pages 520 - 523) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 524 Page 526 1 qualified M edical Director. 1 So they're certainly aw are that ju st talc by 2 Q Right. 2 itself can cause a disease o f the lungs here; right? 3 A A nd he's asking at the very end: how bad is 3 A T hey're aware, if you read the medical 4 trem olite medically? 4 literature, as you w ould have done in 1969, you would 5 Q Okay. 5 have been aware that talc millers and talc m iners, who 6 A So he's asking a question. 6 are exposed to extrem ely high levels, w ould have a 7 Q This w ill be Exhibit 105. 7 potential to suffer pneumoconiosis. 8 (Exhibit 105 m arked for identification) 8 Q Okay. 9 A nd here's the answ er he gets from the 9 A B ut that was not the case for the general 10 m edical departm ent. 10 public. T here w as no evidence o f that. 11 Y ou can see it's from TM Thom pson, M D , a 11 Q Okay. 12 m edical doctor; right? 12 A B ut extrem ely high levels in the m iners and 13 A Yes. 13 m illers, certainly g oing b a ck to the 1920s, th at you 14 Q A nd the m edical doctor responds --this is on 14 did you get som e evidence o f pneum oconiosis. 15 A pril 1 5 ,1 9 6 9 -- so th is is six d ay s later; right? 15 Q So by w ay o f introduction, he's talked about 16 A Yes. 16 talcosis, but he goes. 17 Q A nd he w rites back. He says: 17 L et's go to the n e x t highlight: 18 " M r ... A shton: 18 "Furthermore, w e have occasionally received 19 Y our inquiry o f April 9th, 1969 addressed to 19 inquiries from various individuals, including G eneral 20 D r G Hildick-Sm ith has been referred to m y attention 20 Johnson and several pediatricians expressing concern 21 fo r reply. 21 over the possibility o f the adverse effects on the 22 O ver the years, I have review ed the 22 lungs o f babies or m others w ho m ight inhale any 23 literature on the hazards relating to the inhalation o f 23 substantial amounts o f our talc formulations". 24 talc particles on several different occasions. In your 24 So Johnson & Johnson is acknowledging that 25 m em orandum , you indicate that Trem olite does have 25 they've had inquiries from pediatricians and m others o f Page 525 Page 527 1 needle-type crystals and that our position has been 1 babies about w hether or not talc could be harm ful to 2 that these could penetrate the skin and cause 2 them ; correct? 3 irritation. Actually, to the best o f m y knowledge, we 3 A That's w hat the reading says, yes. 4 have no factual information on this subject. It would 4 Q W ho is General Johnson? 5 seem logical that it could occur, although whether or 5 A In 1969, he would have been - he would have 6 not it w ould be o f clinical significance w ould be 6 retired, but he was one o f the grandsons o f the 7 conjectural. 7 original founder. 8 W e have been concerned to a m uch greater 8 Q W as his name General? His first name? 9 extent with regard to possible dangers relative to the 9 A He was a W orld W ar II General. 10 inhalation o f the talc w ith a spicule or [a] 10 Q Okay. So they just referred to him as General 11 needle-like crystalline structure as co m p ared w ith the 11 Johnson? 12 flat, p latelet-ty p e o f crystalline structure. T here 12 A They did, yes. 13 are reports in the literature co n cerning talcosis, 13 Q A ll right. 14 which, as you know , is a form o f pneum oconiosis 14 So this is -- he's one o f the grandchildren 15 attributed to the inhalation o f talc". 15 o f one o f th e founders. 16 A nd I'll stop right there. 16 W hat was his role at the company? 17 Pneumoconiosis is what? 17 A A t one point, he was certainly on the Board, 18 A It's an inflam m atory condition o f the lungs, 18 and probably President o f the B oard in the 1940s, '50s. 19 essentially. 19 Q Okay. A ll right. 20 Q It's --pneum oconiosis m eans, broadly, dust 20 A nd then he goes on to say: 21 disease; correct? 21 "In the past, w e have replied to the effect 22 A It is, yes. 22 that since our talc is essentially all o f the 23 Q O f the lungs? 23 platelet-type o f crystalline structure, and is o f a 24 A O f the lungs, yeah. 24 size w hich w ould not be likely to enter the pulmonary 25 Q Okay. 25 alveolae, w e w ould not regard the usage o f our powders 38 (Pages 524 - 527) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 528 Page 530 1 as presenting any hazard. Obviously, if we do include 1 Q Okay. 2 Trem olite in more than unavoidable trace am ounts, this 2 A That's correct. 3 sort o f negation o f such inquiries could no longer 3 Q A ll right. 4 pertain". 4 "Since the usage o f these products is so 5 In other w ords, w hat he's saying is these 5 w idespread and the existence o f pulm onary disease is 6 people ask us a question. W e tell them basically not 6 increasing, it is not inconceivable that we could 7 to w orry, it's basically platelike. B ut if there's 7 becom e involved in litigation in which pulmonary 8 m ore th an an y trace, w e can 't m ak e th at denial; 8 fibrosis or other changes m ight be rightfully or 9 correct? 9 wrongfully attributed to inhalation o f our powder 10 A That's w hat he's stating, yes. 10 form ulation". 11 Q Okay. 11 So this doctor in 1969 is predicting that 12 A Yes. 12 ultim ately Johnson & Johnson could end up in 13 Q Skip to the next highlight: 13 litigation; right? 14 "Since pulm onary diseases, including 14 A H e's suggesting it could happen. 15 inflam m atory, fibroplastic, a n d neoplastic types, 15 Q A nd o f course I'm asking you these questions 16 appear to be on the increase, it w ould seem to be 16 right now in litigation, am I not? 17 pru d en t to lim it any possible co n ten t o f T rem olite in 17 A Y ou are. 18 o u r po w d er form ulations to a n absolute m inim um ". 18 Q So he was right about that? 19 Now , neoplastic m eans cancer? 19 A He was - he m ade a proposal, yeah. 20 A It does. 20 Q Okay. 21 Q Okay. 21 "It m ight be that someone in the Law 22 A nd he's saying because o f these concerns, 22 D epartm ent should be consulted with regard to the 23 any trem olite needs to be to a m inimum; right? 23 defensibility o f our position in the event that such a 24 A That's w hat it reads, yes. 24 situation could ever arise. 25 Q "To the best o f m y knowledge, we have never 25 It is m y personal feeling that until we have Page 529 Page 531 1 been faced w ith any litigation involving either skin or 1 at least substantial evidence, based on animal work, to 2 lung penetration by our talc form ulations. Som e years 2 the effect that the presence o f Trem olite in our talc 3 ago, w e w ere faced with a m ore or less serious problem 3 does not produce adverse effects, w e should not extend 4 resulting from w hat w e considered to have been an 4 its usage beyond an absolute m inim um previously 5 unjust accusation o f danger due to the presence o f a 5 mentioned". 6 sm all am ount o f boric acid in our talc. This created 6 Did I read that right? 7 such a furor that w e were m ore or less com pelled to 7 A Y ou did. 8 rem ove boric acid from the form ulation. It is 8 Q As o f April 15,1969, did Johnson & Johnson, at 9 conceivable that a sim ilar situation m ight eventually 9 least until it more investigated the talc or anything, 10 arise i f it b ecam e kn o w n th at o ur talc form ulations 10 did it place a hold on sales, m ining and m anufacture o f 11 co n tain ed an y significant am o u n t o f T rem olite". 11 b a b y pow der? 12 N ow , I'm going to stop there. 12 A No, because at the tim e the state o f knowledge, 13 A t this point, the general public had no idea 13 scientific know ledge, w as th at there w as no safety 14 that there w as trem olite in any form in Johnson's 14 hazard. 15 products; right? 15 Q W ell, look at w hat he says. 16 A Correct. 16 Your doctor says go do the work to prove that 17 Q Right. 17 it has no hazard; correct? 18 Johnson & Johnson knew there was, but the 18 A That's correct. 19 pu b lic d id not; right? 19 Q Okay. 20 A W ell, that's w hat it --w hat it w ould infer, 20 A nd in the time that you need to go do the 21 yes. 21 w ork, did Johnson & Johnson place a hold on the sale o f 22 Q B ut that w as also a m atter o f objective truth. 22 this product? 23 The public didn't know there w as any trem olite in any 23 A No. 24 form in J& J, but J& J knew; right? 24 Q Okay. 25 A T hey --that's --yeah, I'll give you that. 25 Now, did anybody ever write back to Dr 39 (Pages 528 - 531) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 532 Page 534 1 Thom pson and say, "No, you're w rong about w hether or 1 U niversity? 2 n o t w e sh o u ld m in im ize the u se o f this p ro d u ct"? 2 Q H e's M ount Sinai? 3 D id anybody, to your knowledge? 3 A M ount Sinai, yeah. 4 A To m y know ledge, I've no idea w hether anyone 4 Q A ll right. T his w ill be Exhibit 106. 5 wrote or did not write. 5 (Exhibit 106 m arked for identification) 6 Q D id Johnson & Johnson ever take on a program 6 There you go, sir. 7 after April o f 1969 to have the public m inim ize the use 7 So, sir, this is a m em o --this is from Gavin 8 o f talc? 8 Hildick-Sm ith to D r Fuller; right? 9 A W hat I believe was done was a study was set up 9 A 1971, yes. 10 in w hich ham sters w ith d o sed w ith a w hole life w ith 10 Q 1971. H e m eets w ith D r Selikoff out at M ount 11 Johnson's B aby P o w d er to lo o k a t th e lungs an d various 11 Sinai; right? 12 o th er tissues. 12 A Yes, it looks like he's m et w ith him, yes. 13 Q So in about 19 --that w ould have been about 13 Q Okay. 14 1972 o r '3; right? 14 A Yeah. 15 A W ell, it takes two years to complete the study. 15 Q The highlight says: 16 So yes. 16 "P ro f S elik o ffs departm ent has as its 17 Q W ell, '73 is four years after '69; right? 17 m ission the isolation and identification o f inorganic 18 A Yes. 18 particles in hum an tissues and their significance in 19 Q A nd this is the test that Johnson & Johnson 19 relation to the production o f disease". 20 hired Battelle to do; right? 20 Now, M ount Sinai was at the forefront o f that 21 A Battelle did the study, yes. 21 w ith regard to asbestos, w ere they not? 22 Q A nd was this the one that D r W arner was heading 22 A T hey w ere certainly one o f the leading people, 23 up? 23 yes. 24 A He did, yes. 24 Q Okay. Go ahead and go to the next tissue - - 1 25 Q A ll right, and they dosed, what, 60 hamsters? 25 m ean, next tissue? I'm reading a word here. N ext Page 533 Page 535 1 A I can't rem em ber the exact number. 1 page. 2 Q Okay. 2 T here's a little highlight there: 3 A It was a standard animal test protocol that you 3 "Dr Selikoff w ould also be w illing to work 4 do. 4 along w ith us in developing scientific data concerning 5 Q Okay. 5 the significance and present o f inorganic particles in 6 A t the tim e that M r Ashton received this in 6 tissue. H e provided the attached initial tentative 7 A pril o f 1969, you're not able to state anything that 7 outline o f a program that m ight be followed to provide 8 Johnson & Johnson did to m inim ize the public's use o f 8 answers to questions being raised". 9 its baby pow der at that tim e until any tests were done; 9 A nd if w e skip to the end: 10 right? 10 "In view o f the suggestion that talc may 11 A No, and I think the reason being that the 11 o ccur in tissues, it w o u ld seem th at w e should give 12 current state o f k n ow ledge a t th at tim e w a s th at there 12 serious consideration to initiating the appropriate 13 w as no actual h azard th at h a d b een identified. 13 steps to d eveloping th e scientific inform ation to 14 T he com m ents here are perceived. T here m ight 14 answ er a num ber o f questions raised". 15 be a problem . L et's lo o k a t it. 15 A nd then if you go to the end: 16 B ut it's not an identified problem. 16 "Consideration, in fact, should be given to 17 Q D r Thom pson specifically put it on the am ount 17 retaining S elik o ff s services as a consultant w ith 18 o f trem olite in the product, too, d id n 't he? 18 appropriate rem uneration". 19 A H e talked about that. 19 W hich means pay; right? 20 Q Right. 20 A Yes. 21 A B ut he was identifying a hypothetical problem 21 Q So Johnson & Johnson in 1971 is considering 22 and suggesting that w e do some work. 22 hiring Selikoff as a consultant; true? 23 Q Okay. You can set that aside, sir. 23 A Yes. 24 W ho is D r Selikoff? 24 Q Okay. All right. 25 A From m em ory, he's at --is it N ew Y ork 25 Y ou can set that aside, because we're going 40 (Pages 532 - 535) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 536 Page 538 1 to come back to that issue. 1 the literature relate to employees in factories where 2 A Okay. 2 they're handling literally tons o f the stu ff every 3 Q This the next one w ill be E xhibit 107. 3 week. 4 (Exhibit 107 m arked for identification) 4 Q Sure, and w hat w as -- w hat w as always stated in 5 So you can see from the little cover sheet 5 that literature is that those employees, if they were 6 there from the desk o f Jack Walcott. 6 at risk for the disease, they w ouldn't expect those 7 W ho's he? 7 diseases to develop for 10,20, 30,40, 50 years; 8 A W hat w as the year? '71? 8 correct? 9 Q '71? 9 A Correct. 10 A I think at that tim e he w ould be one o f the 10 Q A ll right. G o to the next page: 11 sen io r m arketing people. 11 "The E PA c h ief cautioned in his letter: 12 Q O kay, and it's to a bunch o f the people w ho 12 'W hile w e are in no p osition to provide evidence that 13 w e'v e alread y seen, including M r C lare, the P resident? 13 th is exposure o f infants to asbestos inhalation 14 A Yes, yeah. 14 contributes to disease later in life, the adverse 15 Q Hildick-Smith, Fuller, et cetera. 15 effects o f larger exposure have alread y been pro v en so 16 A nd he attaches som e excerpts from some 16 definitely that it is only prudent to m inim ize all 17 new spapers; correct? 17 exposures unless they can b e dem onstrated conclusively 18 A Correct, yes. 18 to be harm less'". 19 Q So in the early edition o f The Post, he 19 And, as a general principle, does Johnson & 20 actually attaches that, and they have a quote from Dr 20 Johnson agree w ith that? 21 Selikoff: 21 A Yes. 22 "M ount Sinai asbestos expert Irving Selikoff 22 Q Okay. 23 w as quoted as saying: 'N o one, particularly children 23 Then, o f course, there's one m ore page there, 24 and young people should be unduly exposed. W e know 24 and this is a statem ent that Johnson & Johnson put out 25 that if a person inhales significant am ounts o f 25 in 1971: Page 537 Page 539 1 asbestos dust he carries a burden that w ill provide a 1 "Johnson & Johnson takes great care to assure 2 latent potential for the developm ent o f cancer for the 2 the purity o f its products, even to the extent o f 3 rest o f his life'". 3 m ining and processing our own talc for use in baby 4 D id I read that right? 4 powder. O ur fifty years o f research knowledge in this 5 A Y ou did. 5 area indicates that there is no asbestos contained in 6 Q A nd w hat he m eans by "latent potential" is the 6 the pow der manufactured by Johnson & Johnson". 7 idea o f latency; right, sir? 7 D id I read that right? 8 A Yes. Longterm . 8 A Y ou did. 9 Q And latency - o f course, Johnson & Johnson 9 Q Okay. 10 p ro bably u n d ersto o d since the early 1900s th at asbestos 10 Now , if w e look at our chart, this is 11 diseases w ere latent; true? 11 Ju n e 2 9 ,1 9 7 1 , an d w e have July, on e m onth later, a 12 A In factory w orkers, w ho w ere ex p o sed to m aking 12 rep o rt o f the Joh n so n & Johnson B ab y P o w d er o re has 13 asb esto s-b ased products, th ere could b e a ten, 20 y ear 13 trace fibers o f trem olite actinolite; right? 14 tim e lag, yes. 14 A That's w hat it states, yes. 15 Q Okay. 15 Q By the way, for everything I wrote down, as I 16 Certainly, b y '71, Johnson & Johnson 16 w as going typically I checked w ith you, but did yo u see 17 u nd ersto o d th at i f som eone g ot a n asbestos disease, it 17 anything th at I w rote dow n that w as grossly 18 w o u ld b e --co u ld b e decades after th e exposure; 18 m isrepresenting w h a t w e w ere talk in g about? 19 correct? 19 A N ot grossly. 20 A Theoretically, yes. 20 Q O kay, o r -- 21 Q Are there cases o f asbestos disease that occur 21 A M aybe a n elem en t o f clarity th at's required 22 imm ediately after exposure? 22 because it does occur -- it's so easy to say 23 A I'm not aware o f any, no. 23 "tremolite" w hen the trem olite m ay be in the 24 Q Right. 24 non-asbestos form. 25 A The asbestos diseases that are m ost fam iliar in 25 Q A nd, in fact, you have --any tim e we've 41 (Pages 536 - 539) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 540 Page 542 1 discussed trem olite, you have m entioned that; right? 1 A Y ou could, yes. 2 A I've raised that, because that's im portant that 2 Q Okay. 3 every tim e w e m ention trem olite, w e need to identify 3 Now , this w ill be E xhibit 108. 4 was it asbestos trem olite, or was it just non-asbestos 4 (Exhibit 108 m arked for identification) 5 or massive tremolite? 5 So this is a m em o from D r Nashed to 6 Q And, for instance, in the early Battelle 6 M r W alcott and it's w ith regard to a m eeting that 7 studies, they don't say "m assive" or "asbestos". They 7 Johnson & Johnson had with the FDA; right? 8 ju st use the w ord "tremolite". 8 A Yes. 9 So that's w hat w e w rote every tim e; correct? 9 Q This is dated July 9, '71. 10 A Yes, yes. 10 A nd there for J& J are some J& J folks, as well 11 Q So that w ould have been accurate; right? 11 as M r C aneer fro m C olorado School o f M ines; right? 12 A It reflected the state o f knowledge at the 12 A Yes. 13 tim e, yes. 13 Q So it says: 14 Q Okay. 14 "I stated that, in view o f the publicity in 15 N ow , 5.10.71, M ay 10, '71. This is one m onth 15 N ew Y ork regarding asbestos in talc, our m anagem ent h a 16 before Johnson & Johnson puts out the statem ent to the 16 directed us to provide full inform ation to the FD A on 17 public; right? 17 our B aby Pow der". 18 A Yes. 18 R ig h t? 19 Q A n d 3.44L baby pow der has .6 per cent non-talc 19 A Yeah. 20 needles, and Bill Ashton, four days later, says those 20 Q Full information? 21 p articles are trem olite; right? 21 A Yes. 22 A That's w hat he's stating. 22 Q So full inform ation means everything? 23 Q Right. 23 A Yes. 24 A B ut let's be clear, 1971 is before the 24 Q Right. 25 methodologies that would definitively identify 25 Now, do you know w hether or not at this time Page 541 Page 543 1 trem olite were in use. 1 Johnson & Johnson provided all the Battelle M emorial 2 W e w ere not using scanning electron 2 studies on the flotation o f Italian talc to the FDA? 3 m icroscopy necessarily on every batch. 3 A I don't have that correspondence. I don't, no. 4 Q L et m e ask you this question. 4 Q Have you ever seen such a thing? 5 W hen Johnson & Johnson put out this PR 5 A N o, but doesn't m ean to say it didn't exist. 6 statem ent in June o f 1971, did they say: we have found 6 Q Okay. 7 non-talc needles that are trem olite in our baby powder 7 G o down to the bottom. It says: 8 to the public? 8 "M r Caneer review ed the reports o f analysis 9 A T hat does not say that, no. 9 o f B aby Pow der and V erm ont talc and em phasized the fat 10 Q Okay. 10 that by follow ing standard procedures: m icroscopy and 11 A nd Johnson & Johnson is not saying that if 11 x -ray diffraction, the sam ples w ere fo und to be 12 th ey h a d w an ted to a t th at tim e in the '50s o r '60s or 12 substantially free from non-talc particles (about 0.01% 13 early '70s, th at th ey co u ld n 't have u se d electron 13 o f total area particles)". 14 m icroscopy, because they could have, couldn't they? 14 R ig h t? 15 A In the '50s a n d '60s, it w asn 't really very 15 A Yes. 16 w ell developed. S canning electron m icroscopy, 16 Q A n d w e k n o w th at the non-talc particles they 're 17 transm ission electron m icroscopy, it w asn 't a t the sam e 17 talk in g ab o u t are trem olite; right? 18 sophistication th at it w as b y the late '60s, early 18 A W ell, it doesn't state that, but w e can 19 '70s. 19 hypothesize. 20 Q W ell, certainly everything gets better? 20 Q Okay. 21 A Yes. 21 W ell, w e know that from a m onth earlier 22 Q B ut it had been invented? 22 A shton identifies the non-talc particles in the 23 A It had, yes. 23 Colorado School o f M ines m em o as being tremolite; 24 Q Right, and you could go buy a TEM in the 1960s, 24 right? 25 could you not? 25 A He does, yes. 42 (Pages 540 - 543) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 544 Page 546 1 Q Okay. 1 M R PANATIER: Pattengill is his name. 2 Now , here they ju st say "non-talc particles". 2 P-A-T-T-E-N-G-I-L-L. 3 A Yeah. 3 Q A nd it says: 4 Q Do you know if they actually told the FD A that 4 "[The] follow ing are results o f x-ray 5 that was tremolite? 5 analyses on 344-L Verm ont talc product and the 6 A I do not know. 6 six-m onthly Verm ont product samples". 7 Q Okay. 7 R ig h t? 8 A I w asn't at that meeting. 8 A Yes. 9 Q Okay. 9 Q So they're looking at one, 344L, w hich w e know 10 B ecause there's -- even in high grade talc, 10 to be baby pow der; right? 11 there's lots o f o th er little s tu ff th at gets in; right? 11 A Correct. 12 A There is, yes. 12 Q A nd then six-m onthly samples, w hich w ould be, 13 Q Right? 13 w hat, the ben eficiated talc? 14 A A lot o f other m inor minerals, hem atite, and 14 A Yes. 15 v arious o th er things. 15 Q Okay. 16 Q Sure. Dolomite; right? 16 H ere's w hat he says. H e says: 17 A Yeah. 17 "Sem iquantitative x-ray diffraction analyses 18 Q So there's lots o f non-talc particles, but it's 18 o f the V erm ont p ro ducts an d standard m ineral sam ples 19 n o t clear fro m here th at th ey to ld the FD A : hey, b y the 19 indicate th at essentially no anthophyllite an d only 20 way, the non-talc particles included tremolite? 20 m inor amounts (below 1%) o f trem olite and actinolite 21 A No. 21 w ere detected". 22 Q Okay. 22 So he says below 1 per cent tremolite 23 A N o, it's not clear, but it could w ell - the 23 actinolite; right? 24 definition o f "non-talc particles" includes anything 24 A Correct. 25 that's not talc, o f w hich there are probably a good 25 Q Below 1 per cent trem olite actinolite. Page 545 Page 547 1 h a lf dozen m inerals that you m ight find, w hich are 1 A nd if you look at the next page, w e know 2 totally innocuous. 2 that trem olite actinolite w as found in 344L; right? 3 Q R ight. 3 A Yes. 4 So u n less th ey tell th e F D A , th e F D A doesn't 4 Q A nd five o f the six-m onthly samples; right? 5 know th at they found trem olite; correct? 5 A Trace, yes. Yes. 6 A C orrect. 6 Q A nd I'll p ut trace, TR, m onthly sam ples. Okay. 7 Q Okay. 7 So that's July 7 o f '71, Johnson & Johnson 8 T h e F D A a t n o tim e h a s h a d a n y rig h t to g o 8 finds out about that; right? 9 in to a co m p an y 's files to in v estig ate cosm etic talc; 9 A Yes. 10 correct? 10 Q Okay. 11 A C orrect. 11 A Although, again, nowhere does it state that the 12 Q A ll right. Y o u can set th at aside, sir. 12 trem olite w as asbestos trem olite. 13 T his w ill be E xhibit 109. 13 Q W ell, in fact, all they do there is XRD; right? 14 (E xhibit 109 m arked for identification) 14 A Yes. 15 H ere y o u are, sir. 15 Q Okay. 16 N ow , this is from the C olorado School o f 16 It doesn't say it isn't asbestos. It ju st 17 M in es to B ill A sh to n , Ju ly 7 ,1 9 7 1 ; rig h t? 17 identifies the m ineral; right? 18 A R ight. 18 A It identifies the m ineral, yes. 19 Q O k a y . S o w e 'll g o to o u r c h a rt a n d w e 'll a d d 19 Q Okay. 20 this in. 20 N ow , w e know in 1973, Johnson & Johnson is 21 So th at w ould b e rig h t here. 7.7.71. 21 sending their V erm ont talc, this very stuff, to Fred 22 A n d h ere, an d th is is M r C an eer, co rrect, or 22 Pooley and telling him: please figure out a way to get 23 it's P atten g ill; do y o u see that? 23 rid o f the trem olite; right? 24 A Y es, yeah. 24 Is that correct? 25 (R eporter clarification) 25 A Is that w hat you're handing to m e? 43 (Pages 544 - 547) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 548 Page 550 1 Q No, no, no. W e talked about this yesterday and 1 I didn't ask you w hether you had som ething to 2 this m orning. 2 hide. You ju st told m e you had nothing to hide. 3 A Okay. 3 A Yeah, yeah. 4 Q Remember? 4 Q Okay. 5 A They were asking ~ R& D people and asking him 5 So Ian Stewart and Grieger are both from 6 to do some experiments. 6 M cCrone; right? 7 Q A nd the experiments w ere to please get rid o f 7 A Correct. 8 the trem olite in the Verm ont talc? 8 Q Now, go to the page right before that under 9 A They were saying w ould you take a look - is 9 Analytical M ethodology. 10 there a w ay o f getting rid o f it. 10 So: 11 Q Right. Okay. 11 "Dr Langer and D r M aggiore o f M ount Sinai 12 (Exhibit 110 m arked for identification) 12 reported that th ey uses the follow ing techniques to 13 N ow , this is a m em orandum o f a sym posium w ith 13 d etect an d determ ine asb estiform m inerals; light 14 the FD A , A ugust 3, '71; right? 14 m icroscopy, xray pow der diffraction, electron 15 A Yes. 15 m icroscopy, electron m icroprobe and electron 16 Q A little less than a month after Colorado 16 diffraction. D uring the discussion that follow ed D r 17 S chool o f M ines says w e fo u n d trem olite an d actinolite 17 L anger's presen tatio n he w a s asked i f he had an alyzed a 18 in the b ab y po w d er a n d five o f six-m onthly sam ples; 18 sam ple referred to as 3 4 4 -L ..." 19 right? 19 N ow , w e've seen that before; right? 20 A Yes. 20 A Yes. 21 Q Okay. 21 Q "... from Johnson and Johnson. H e said that he 22 N ow , if you go to the page 5, it's m arked 22 had and that it was a very high quality - it was a 23 page 5? Actually, for context, look at page 6 first. 23 high quality talc". 24 All right? 24 R ig h t"? 25 Y ou can see that there's lots o f different 25 A Yes. Page 549 Page 551 1 people here and there's lots o f other com panies there? 1 Q N ow , he doesn't say anything about w hether it 2 A Yes. 2 had asbestos; right? 3 Q W ell, there's a few. Pfizer is there. 3 A Correct. 4 W hittaker Clarke & Daniels is there. Johns M anville is 4 Q Now, w e know that Langer in 1971, in fact, less 5 there. The CTFA is there; right? 5 than a month before this, he tells Johnson & Johnson 6 A Yes. 6 privately: I think there's chrysotile in your baby 7 Q W ho has the m ost people there? 7 powder; correct? 8 A People w ho are interested, w ho are Johnson & 8 A That was a letter, yes. 9 Johnson. 9 Q Okay. 10 Q R ight. Johnson & Johnson had D r N ashed there, 10 A Yes. 11 G avin H ildick-S m ith, R olle, Shelley, G oudie, an d th en 11 Q So he stands up and represents that 344L is a 12 four consultants. 12 high quality talc; right? 13 A Yes. 13 A That's w hat he states, yes. 14 Q Pooley, Caneer, Stewart and Grieger; right? 14 Q Right. So you can set that aside. 15 A Yes. 15 Let's ju st rem em ber that date. That was 16 Q A nd they're even identified as Johnson & 16 A ugust 3, '71; okay? A ll right? 17 Jo hnson's consultants? 17 A Yes. 18 A Absolutely, yeah. 18 Q Now, w e know that a little less than one month 19 Q N ow - 19 before that, C olorado School o f M ines h ad told J& J on 20 A N othing to hide. 20 July 7 that there w as actinolite trem olite in 344L in 21 Q N othing to hide? 21 five o f six o f the sam ples; correct? 22 A N othing to hide. 22 A Correct. 23 Q Okay. 23 Q This w ill be Exhibit 111. 24 A T hey were consultants. 24 (E xhibit 111 m arked for identification) 25 Q O kay. That's fine. 25 Now , this is dated A ugust 6; correct? 44 (Pages 548 - 551) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 552 Page 554 1 A It is. 1 A Yes. 2 Q 7 1 . This is three days after the FD A meeting; 2 Q Now, can Johnson & Johnson identify for me what 3 right? 3 standard asbestos-type sam ples regularly contain 4 A Yes. 4 trem olite and actinolite? 5 Q Okay. 5 A Okay. The Colorado School o f M ines, doing its 6 H e w rites to M r A shton. N ow , this is 6 laboratory investigations, would have sitting on the 7 M r Pattengill, w ho did the 344L and V erm ont study on 7 shelf sam ples o f w hat are called "standards". 8 July 7; right? 8 There will be a standard o f each o f the 9 A Yes. 9 different types o f asbestos, different types o f 10 Q Because I think you brought this up yesterday. 10 non-asbestiform m ineral. T hey have a little sam ple. 11 H e says: 11 So th ey k n o w w h a t it looks like w h en th ey ru n the test. 12 "D ear M r Ashton: 12 So in the same room, probably alm ost on the 13 A fter attending the W ashington m eeting, 13 sam e ben ch , th ey w ill have sam ples o f non-talc 14 A ugust 3 ,1 9 7 1 , and listening to the argum ents and data 14 m aterials, pure sam ples o f different kinds o f asbestos 15 presented, I hav e the follow ing to ad d to the data 15 or non-asbestos m inerals. 16 p rev io u sly sen t to y o u co n cerning the V erm o n t talc 16 So they'll b e around in the lab. 17 sam ples. 17 A nd m y read o f this w as that they said: 18 ... In the rep o rt o f Ju ly 7 ,1 9 7 1 , there is 18 W hoops, w e probably had the pots or the jars open at 19 som e q u estion relative to the presen ce o f 19 the tim e, and it could w ell have been there w as cross 20 tremolite-actinolite". 20 contamination. 21 So rem em ber w e have the July 7, '71, report? 21 Q So they found asbestos in six o f the seven 22 A Yes, yeah. 22 samples; right? 23 Q W here they said: w e have found actinolite 23 A Yes. 24 trem olite. 24 Q But one o f them was clean; right? 25 A nd now three days after this m eeting at the 25 A Yeah. Page 553 Page 555 1 FDA, he says: 1 Q So apparently som ehow six o f the seven samples 2 "The sam ples w ere prepared in a room that was 2 were contaminated, and he just happened to remember 3 not entirely 'c le a n '..." 3 that three days after that m eeting; right? 4 In quotes: 4 A I don't know. I w asn't there at the time. 5 "... and w ere prepared in conjunction w ith 5 B ut it is a w ell know n explanation, not just 6 standard asbestos-type sam ples. Subsequent x-ray w ork 6 w ith this but with m icrobiology - m any other 7 on the six-m onthly product sam ples and the 344L produci 7 laboratories w ill have this -- that if you've got have 8 sam ple show s no definite indications o f any 8 certain m icrobes in the lab, you can get cross 9 asbestos-type m inerals w ithin our lim its o f 9 contam ination w hen you do a test. 10 detectability. The trace am ounts I saw were evidently 10 Q Is i t - 11 contam ination fro m the standard asbestos sam ples". 11 A It's not unusual. 12 R ig h t? 12 Q Yeah. Right. I f you don't have a good lab 13 A That's w hat it says. 13 pro ced u re for prep arin g y o u r sam ples in a clean w ay, 14 Q So one m onth after his initial report and three 14 you can have contam ination; right? 15 d ays after th is F D A m eeting w ith Johnson & Johnson 15 A Y eah, and, you know, back in 1971 --it w as a 16 w here th e ben efits o r the qu ality o f 344L are to ld to 16 long tim e ago --the processes, procedures were 17 th e F D A , Johnson & Jo hnson's consultant w rites b a ck to 17 d ifferent from w h a t people w o u ld do today, o r even by 18 Johnson & Johnson a n d says: oops, all six sam ples w ere 18 1975. 19 co n tam inated because w e prep ared them in a room that 19 Q Right. 20 w as not entirely clean; right? 20 But he recognized here that if that w as the 21 A Basically, they said they screw ed up. 21 case, it w as w rong; they didn't have to prepare the 22 Q Yep. 22 stuff in a dirty room? 23 N ow --and they said that they were prepared 23 A H e's not saying it's a dirty room . W hat he's 24 in conjunction with standard asbestos-type samples; 24 saying is that, because they had positive sam ples o f 25 right? 25 various other m inerals around --the jar was opened, 45 (Pages 552 - 555) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 556 Page 558 1 could have been on the m icroscopes --there could well 1 clean, I assume Johnson & Johnson found another 2 have been cross contamination. 2 consultant and stopped using Colorado School o f Mines? 3 So they went back and did a review o f that 3 A I don't know. I couldn't assum e that. 4 again. 4 Q Okay. 5 Q Right. 5 A No. 6 A This is not unusual. This can happen in m any 6 Colorado School o f M ines is -- always had a 7 other fields. 7 good reputation. 8 I m entioned it happened - I've seen it in 8 Q W hen they're not contam inating six o f seven o f 9 m icrobiology as well. 9 your samples? 10 Q So how m any other tim es did any o f Johnson & 10 A W ell, they obviously learned their lesson. 11 Jo hnson's consultants w rite th em an d say: hey, the 11 Q I f that's w hat happened; right? 12 positives th a t w e found w ere b ecause w e prep ared them 12 A Yes. W ell, they said they screw ed up. 13 in a room th at w as "not entirely clean"? 13 Q That's w hat they said happened; right? 14 A I don't know , b ut it w ouldn't surprise m e if 14 A Yeah. 15 there w as others, b ecause the p rocedures and processes 15 Q This w ill be Exhibit 112. 16 b a ck 40 -o d d y ears ago w ere d ifferent from w h at they 16 (Exhibit 112 m arked for identification) 17 w o u ld b e today. 17 This one's a little tough to read. This is 18 W hen you and I w alked into this room today -- 18 straight from the - from the FD A . A ctually, this copy 19 y o u 'v e pro b a b ly b een on th e side w a lk th is m orning - 19 m ig h t b e fro m Jo hns M anville, this copy, b u t a n y w a y ... 20 w e w ill have asbestos on our clothes, because it's been 20 Do you see at the top it says Division o f 21 aro u n d for a long tim e, it's com e from b rake linings. 21 C olors and C osm etics T echnology, F ood and D m g 22 So it doesn't surprise you can get a little 22 Adm inistration, for a M eeting, A ugust 3, '71? 23 bit o f cross contam ination. 23 A Yes. 24 N ow , today in a laboratory, you'd change your 24 Q Do you see that? 25 clothes. Y ou'd w ear a little hat and w hite coat. 25 A Yes, yes. Page 557 Page 559 1 Y ou'd ensure that there w as no chance o f cross 1 Q I think w hat w e have here is w e have another - 2 contam ination. 2 another set o f m inutes about the sam e m eeting we've 3 B ut back in 1 9 71,1 think they were saying: 3 already been talking about; okay? 4 yeah, w e screw ed up. The room w asn't entirely clean. 4 O r it m ight be another session o f the meeting 5 Q I don't w ant to have to object to 5 on the same day. D o you see that? 6 non-responsive. 6 A Yeah, yeah. 7 A Sorry. Ask the question again. 7 Q They're both A ugust 3, '71, are they not? 8 Q Yes, I will. 8 A Yes. 9 A Yeah. 9 Q Okay. 10 Q The question w as pretty simple. 10 Right. Are you ready? 11 Are you aware o f any other tim e w here any 11 A Yes. 12 consultant fo r J& J, after lo o k in g a t Joh n so n & Johnson 12 Q It just says at the top, Purpose: 13 sam ples, w ro te b ack an d said: the resu lts are n o t the 13 "To specify a laboratory procedure for the 14 results w e told you they w ere because w e prepared them 14 determ ination o f asbestos in cosm etic talcum pow ders 15 in a ro o m th at w a s n ot entirely clean? 15 w h ich w ill give consistent, m eaningful results. T his 16 H ow m any other tim es? 16 m ay require answ ers to such questions as ..." 17 A I believe, having read various reports in the 17 A nd they have a series o f questions about 18 last fo u r w eeks, th ere w as a t lea st on e o ther one. 18 defining asbestos, varieties, w hat particle size ranges 19 N ot from Colorado. I certainly think there 19 do yo u report, e t cetera; right? 20 w as another one from another outside lab. 20 A Yes. 21 Q So after Colorado had at first said that there 21 Q O kay. L et's go to the next page. 22 w as trem olite in six o f your sam ples, and then, less 22 They again show the various Johnson & Johnson 23 than a m onth later after a m eeting w here they were with 23 people and consultants that were present; true? 24 J& J, three days later tell you: by the way, we 24 A Yes. 25 contam inated all your sam ples, and they're actually 25 Q G o ahead and turn to -- it's a page at the top 46 (Pages 556 - 559) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 560 Page 562 1 you'll see it says Research and Engineering Center, 1 "G eiger questions som e o f A rt Langer's 2 August 11,'71. 2 identification o f chrysotile fibrils". 3 I w ant to m ake clear --you m ay be on the 3 R ig h t? 4 right page. 4 A Yes. 5 A Is that Bates 45? 5 Q And we talked about what Langer said about 6 Q That's 45. That's right. 6 chrysotile in Johnson & Johnson's stuff; right? 7 I w ant to m ake clear this is the Johns 7 A Yes. 8 M anville m inutes from that m eeting; okay? 8 Q And: 9 A Okay. 9 "This was a sm okes screen, but a good counter 10 Q I ju st w ant to m ake clear that's w hat that is. 10 offensive to L anger finding chrysotile everyw here". 11 N o w , J& J a n d Johns M anville actually d id som e 11 R ig h t? 12 w o rk tog eth er w ith reg ard to m icroscopy a n d talc; 12 A Yes. 13 correct? 13 Q So at least the w ay JM is characterizing this 14 A I believe I've read that, yes. 14 is th at M cC rone --M cC rone's questioning A rt L an g er's 15 Q Okay. 15 identification w as a sm okescreen; right? 16 So let's ju st go to, at the bottom o f the 16 A W ell, that's w hat Johns M anville have written. 17 p ag e it sh o u ld b e 49. 17 Q That's right. Okay. Y ou can set that aside. 18 A Yes. 18 This next one is 113. 19 Q Halfw ay down it says: 19 (Exhibit 113 m arked for identification) 20 "W T Caneer -- Colorado School o f M ines 20 August 9,1971. This is six days after the 21 R esearch Institute". 21 FD A m eeting; right? 22 Do you see that? 22 A Yes. 23 A Yes, yeah. 23 Q Okay. 24 Q And it says he: 24 A nd this is from Shelley to Kram er, b u t it 25 "Reviewed petrographic and electron probe 25 cc's a bunch o f people; right? Page 561 Page 563 1 studies o f J& J. Showed clean fiber". 1 A Yes. 2 R ig h t? 2 Q Okay. Okay. 3 A Yes. 3 W hat he says is: 4 Q D o you know w hat "clean fiber" m eans? 4 "It w ould seem m ore than appropriate that we 5 A N o, I don't. 5 upgrade the quality control on our talc and baby 6 Q Okay. 6 powder, particularly as to the potential asbestos 7 A It's not a scientific term. 7 content". 8 Q N eith er do I. 8 R ig h t? 9 B ut he's one o f the scientists you guys have 9 A Yes. 10 as a consultant; right? 10 Q Okay. 11 A W ell, w ho w rote the m inutes? 11 Now, if to this point there had never been 12 Q W ell, J& J did. 12 an y indication regarding asbestos content, yo u w ould n 't 13 A J& J w rote the m inutes? 13 n eed to upgrade the quality control, w ould you? 14 Q I m ean, Johns M anville did. 14 A Speculative. Certainly back in 1971, people 15 A Okay. 15 u se d w ords loosely. "A sbestos content" co u ld w ell have 16 Q I believe. 16 been u sed loosely, certainly by this particular 17 A Yeah. So Johns M anville were using the w ord 17 individual, M r Shelley. 18 "clean fiber" -- 18 Q W hy him? W hy particularly by him? W as he a 19 Q Okay. 19 b ad em ployee, or d id he -- 20 A -- w hich doesn't m ean m uch. 20 A N o, I've read other correspondence from 21 Q W ell, let's go to the next page, and this is 21 M r Shelley and he doesn't com e across as definitive. 22 under the section for G ene G eiger from M cCrone; okay? 22 It's flakey. 23 A Yeah. 23 Q Okay. 24 Q Y ou see it's got w hat he w as doing, right, and 24 D id any o f the seven people he cc'd, 25 then it continues under num ber 2 on the next page. 25 including the President o f the company, M r Clare, ever 47 (Pages 560 - 563) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 564 Page 566 1 w rite b a ck a n d say: stop saying th ere's potential 1 W ell, competent scientists. Now, we know 2 asbestos. That's not true? 2 th a t 11 d ay s e arlier, D r L anger h a d m et w ith Johnson & 3 A No. 3 Johnson and said: there's chrysotile in your baby 4 Q Okay, and did anyone criticize him for being 4 powder; right? 5 flakey in all o f this? 5 A They had claim ed to find that, yes. 6 A N o --w ell, I don't know. Certainly, there's 6 Q Right. 7 nothing in the --you've not show n m e any literature, 7 A nd here Johnson & Johnson is saying: 8 b u t ... 8 "D r Pooley's com m ents on Selikoff and Langer 9 Q So this guy says that they have to include 9 ... echoed w h at w e have b een hearing ... com petent 10 [sic] the quality control because o f potential asbestos 10 scientists b ut political extrapolators". 11 content, a n d y o u r --Johnson & Jo hnson's official 11 Right? Science good, but some sort o f 12 response to this do cu m en t is: M r S helley w as flakey? 12 political thing? 13 A That's n o t the official com m ent at all. 13 A Science competent. 14 M y com m ent w as that M r Shelley, w hen you read 14 Q Right. Okay. 15 m any o f his m em os, com es across w ith term s th at are not 15 A N ot necessarily good. Competent. 16 scientifically exact. 16 Q Okay. 17 Q Okay. 17 So their --never mind. 18 A But, you know , he's w ritten w hat he's written. 18 Okay. This next one w ill be 115. 19 Q Okay. Y ou can set that aside. 19 (Exhibit 115 m arked for identification) 20 A Yeah. 20 A ll right. So this is another m eeting with 21 Q So rem em ber we looked at a docum ent w here 21 the FD A , July 2 1 ,1 9 7 1 ; correct? 22 Johnson & Johnson had m et with D r Selikoff? 22 A Correct. W ell, July 20. 23 A Yes. 23 Q Oh, I'm sorry, July -- 24 Q A nd even considered hiring him as a consultant; 24 A The m eeting was July 20. 25 right? 25 Q That's right. That's right. The m em o w as Page 565 Page 567 1 A Yes. 1 July 21; true? 2 Q T hat was in 1971; true? 2 A Correct, yes. 3 A Yes. 3 Q This is authored by D r N ashed; right? 4 Q Right. This w ill be Exhibit 114. 4 A Yes. 5 (Exhibit 114 m arked for identification) 5 Q Okay. 6 So betw een then and July 20,1971, we is have 6 N ow , w e're only going to talk about one 7 a mem o from M r Shelley, again, and he supplements a 7 parag rap h here. It's the one that's highlighted. 8 report on his visit to D r Pooley, July 20. 8 D r W eissler -- he's w ith the FD A ; right? 9 He said: 9 A Yes. 10 "D r Pooley's com m ents on S elikoff and Langer 10 Q "... w anted to know i f trem olite or fibrous 11 p retty m uch ech o ed w h a t w e have b een hearing --viz 12 tt 11 talc w as found". 12 Okay? A nd you can see above they're talking 13 W hich m eans "to the extent that"; all right? 13 about th eir bab y pow der; right? 14 A Yes. 14 A Yes. 15 Q "... com petent scientists b ut political 15 Q Okay. 16 ex trapolators". 16 "W e stated that our information is that no 17 So w hat is a "political extrapolator"? 17 asbestos w as found and that w e w ill have full detailed 18 A I don't know. 18 reports on the findings in about a week". 19 Q Okay. 19 R ig h t? 20 A Let's read it again: 20 A Yes. 21 "Dr Pooley's com m ents on S elikoff and Langer 21 Q So the FDA asked the question: was trem olite or 22 p retty [w ell] m uch echoed w h a t w e hav e b e en h e a r in g ... 22 fibrous talc found? R ight? 23 com petent scientists but political extrapolators". 23 A Yes, yeah. 24 Yeah. M aybe they've got an axe to grind. 24 Q Now, by this point in 1971, Johnson & Johnson 25 Q Okay. 25 has been finding trem olite in their talc since 1957; 48 (Pages 564 - 567) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 1 right? Page 568 Page 570 1 was held with D r Clark Cooper o f the School o f Public 2 A Yes. 2 Health, University o f California, Berkeley. D r Cooper 3 Q A nd they've been finding --they even found 3 had worked at the N ational Centre for U rban and 4 trem olite in a 1958 off-the-shelf baby powder; right? 4 Industrial Health and later moved to the School o f 5 A Yes. 5 Public Health in Berkeley. D r Cooper w as Chairman o f 6 Q Okay. 6 the National Research Council Review o f Asbestos and 7 B ut it says here all they said in response 7 Its Potential Health Hazards w hich published an 8 was: 8 excellent review on the subject. D r Cooper was called 9 "W e stated that our information is that no 9 in in the hope that he m ight be able to attend the FDA 10 asbestos w as f o u n d ..." 10 m eeting on A ugust 3". 11 But D r W eissler wasn't asking the w ord 11 A nd that's a m eeting w e've talked about; 12 "asbestos". H e said "trem olite", d id n 't he? 12 right? 13 A W ell, I don't know w hat - 1 don't know what 13 A Yes. 14 ex act w o rd s D r W eissler used, b ut the J& J response w as 14 Q It says he's well versed in the literature in 15 th at there's n o asbestos. 15 th e field. I'll skip ahead: 16 Q Okay. 16 "He is in a position to oversee epidem iologic 17 W e know there w as plenty o f tremolite; right? 17 studies, conduct analytical studies on talc and allied 18 A I w ouldn't use the w ord "plenty". 18 m aterials, and co n d u ct anim al studies on appropriate 19 Q Okay. 19 m aterials. H e w ould be pleased to discuss this area at 20 M any instances o f the detection o f trem olite 20 any time. In asking D r Cooper his thoughts concerning 21 in the source an d flotation talc for Johnson & Johnson; 21 the asbestos --" 22 correct? 22 (Noise heard from phone) 23 A There have been, yes, yes. 23 Can you guys m ute --m ute your phone? 24 Q Okay. 24 "In asking D r Cooper his thoughts concerning 25 A Trace --trace levels. 25 the asbestos content o f talc and the use o f talcs for Page 569 Page 571 1 Q W ell, some were more than trace. Some were 2, 1 cosmetics, he indicated that in his opinion there is no 2 3 ,4 per cent; correct? 2 place for asbestos in cosmetic talcs and he would 3 A Yes. 3 withdraw from the m arket any talcs that contained 4 Q Okay. 4 asbestos. He did not believe that there was a low 5 All right. You can set that aside. 5 level o f asbestos content in talc w hich would be 6 This next one w ill be 116. 6 acceptable for cosm etic use". 7 (Exhibit 116 m arked for identification) 7 R ig h t? 8 O kay, sir? A ll right. 8 A That's w hat he writes. 9 Sir, this is a m em o and it's from G avin 9 Q A nd that is com pletely in agreem ent with w hat 10 H ildick-S m ith. T his particu lar co p y w as D r N ashed's; 10 y o u to ld m e Johnson & Jo hnson's p o licy o n asbestos in 11 right? 11 talc w as; correct? 12 A Yes. 12 A Correct. 13 Q Because it says it was received by him; 13 Q There's no place for it; right? 14 correct? 14 A Yes. 15 A Yes. 15 Q A nd that has always been their policy as long 16 Q From July 30, 1971. 16 as --as long as you can rem em ber, as w ell as from the 17 It says: 17 docum ents you've review ed; correct? 18 "O ur conversation w ith D r C lark C o o p e r..." 18 A Correct. 19 Now, Clark Cooper was a very well known 19 Q But they still felt the need to ask this doctor 20 public health doctor; correct? 20 o f public health what his opinion was and whether or 21 A I've certainly heard the name, yes. 21 not asbestos could be dangerous to talc; right? 22 Q A ll right. 22 A Y eah, and, you know , there's nothing unusual in 23 H e's at U niversity o f California, and D r 23 that. It's --it's com m on practice in industry to seek 24 Hildick Smith writes here: 24 opinion from outside experts. 25 "At D r Cralley's suggestion, a conversation 25 Q Okay. A ll right. 49 (Pages 568 - 571) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 572 Page 574 1 A nd, in fact, he says he did not believe that 1 executive at Johnson & Johnson, w asn't he? 2 there was a low level o f asbestos content in talc which 2 A I w ould not dispute that. 3 w ould be acceptable for cosmetic use, and Johnson & 3 Q Okay. 4 Johnson agrees w ith that still today? 4 A nd you don't get that high up in this 5 A Yes. 5 com pany by being inexact or being flakey, do you? 6 Q Okay. 6 A W hat I said was that the quality o f the memos, 7 M S F R O S T : It's 2:15. 7 the text, w as not as exact as you w ould expect from a 8 M R P A N A T IE R : Let's take a break. Let's take 8 high-flying scientist. 9 a break. 9 Q Okay. 10 (O ff the record at 2:14 pm ) 10 M S FROST: W as that 117? 11 (On the record at 2:37 pm) 11 M R PANATIER: W hat does it say on there? 12 B Y M R P A N A T IE R : 12 THE W ITNESS: Yes. 13 Q So, siT, M r S helley, h e w a s th e fello w th a t y o u 13 M R PA N A TIER : 117, yes. 14 said, you used the w ord "flakey" and "inexact"; right? 14 All right. This is 118. 15 R em em b er that? 15 (Exhibit 118 m arked for identification) 16 A I have seen som e m em os w here I w ould com m ent 16 It's a little bit earlier. 17 th at the tex t w asn 't perfect. 17 Y ou had m entioned that earlier, ju st as an 18 Q Okay. 18 aside, th at talcosis w as som ething that happened in 19 And you said that w hen he w as talking about 19 m iners and m illers; correct? 20 his concern over asbestos and needing to improve 20 A It has been reported, yes. 21 quality control for asbestos; correct? 21 Q Okay. 22 Correct? W as that the m em o that we were 22 D o you see that this is a paper entitled 23 talking about? 23 Pneum oconiosis -- w hich m eans dust disease; right? 24 A It could have been. Yes, it could have been. 24 A Yes. 25 Q Okay. 25 Q D ue to Talc in the C osm etic Industry; right? Page 573 Page 575 1 A Som etim es -- w hat 1 m eant w as the term s, the 1 A Yes. 2 phrases w ere not exact. 2 Q A nd if you go down to the second highlight 3 Q Okay. 3 there, it says: 4 W ell, let's ju st get a little bit m ore info 4 "The study indicated a relationship between 5 on w ho he was. I w ent and pulled his obituary. 5 the positive roentgen observations ..." 6 (Exhibit 117 m arked for identification) 6 W hich is -- 7 A Mmmhmm. 7 A X-rays. 8 Q A nd it says here that: 8 Q --x-rays? 9 "Dr Shelley received his Bachelor o f Science 9 A Yes. 10 and M aster o f Science in chem istry from the U niversity 10 Q "... and (1) the concentration o f dust and (2) 11 o f K entucky. D r Shelley, a chem ist, w as an executive 11 the len g th o f ex p osure to talc, a n d the conclusion 12 o f Johnson & Jo hnson's research operations". 12 re ac h ed w as th at silicate d usts o f trem olite talc 13 So he was pretty high up; right? 13 induced a fine d iffu se bilateral fibrosis o f the lungs 14 A Yes. 14 (pneum oconiosis)". 15 Q "He specialized in areas o f surgical adhesives, 15 D o I read that right? 16 dental products and headed J& J's exploratory research 16 A Y ou did, yes. 17 laboratories before becom ing D irector o f R esearch and 17 Q Okay. 18 C orporate D irecto r o f S cientific A ffairs." 18 This is a case report o f an individual who 19 That's w ay high up in the com pany; right? 19 had pneum oconiosis from w orking in a cosm etic talc 20 A It w ould have been, yes. 20 factory; correct? 21 Q Okay? 21 A L et me ju st read this. 22 A That was 1981, yeah. 22 Q Sure. 23 Q "He received seven patents for his inventions 23 A t the top o f page 392, if you go to that 24 during m ore than three decades w ith the company." 24 page - 25 So he was a pretty serious scientist and 25 A Oh, okay. 50 (Pages 572 - 575) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 580 Page 582 1 M erew ether on the front page, Asbestosis and 1 ... m eetin g can b e sum m arized as follow s ..." 2 carcinom a o f the lung. 2 So it was a m eeting o f those three groups; 3 Cralley, Source o f identification o f 3 right? 4 respirable fibers. 4 A Yes. 5 A sbestos hazards in naval dockyards. 5 Q By the way, I do want to point out here, so 6 N ext page. 6 Johnson & Johnson is really serious about its im age and 7 Lieben and Pistawaka, M esotheliom a and 7 its tradem arks; right? 8 asbestos exposure. 9 M esotheliom a in Scotland. 8 A Johnson & Johnson is seriously interested in 9 ensuring the product was safe. So certainly very 10 N ext page. 10 proactive in m eeting with FDA. 11 Selikoff and Ham m ond, Environm ental 11 Q W ell, I m ean, so this is a Johnson & Johnson 12 epidem iology. C om m unity effects o f nonoccupational 12 m em o; right? 13 environm ental asbestos exposure. 13 A Yes. 14 Selikoff, Asbestos exposure, smoking and 14 Q W ritten by one Johnson & Johnson guy to another 15 neoplasia. 15 Johnson & Jo h n so n guy? 16 Selikoff, Churg and Ham m ond, Asbestos 16 A Yes. 17 exposure a n d neoplasia. 17 Q Right? 18 Asbestos in the lungs. 18 A nd you could see there's a little asterisk 19 Selikoff, The occurrence o f plural 19 after he u ses the w ord "Johnson & Johnson"; right? 20 calcification among asbestos installation workers. 20 A Yes. 21 Selikoff, Relation betw een exposure to 21 Q A nd you go to the bottom , and it says -- 22 asbestos and mesotheliom a. 22 A Trademark? 23 And that goes on for another page there; 23 Q - "trademark"; right? 24 right? 24 A Yeah. 25 A Yes. 25 Q So, I m ean, w ere they afraid that other people Page 581 Page 583 1 Q So for a company that never sold a product with 1 at Johnson & Johnson w ould steal their trademarks? 2 asbestos, they sure were doing a lot o f research on 2 A No. I can tell you, because I worked there for 3 asbestos, w eren't they? 3 long enough, it is a com pany policy that every tim e you 4 A There's nothing unusual in this, that people in 4 w rite a brand nam e or the w ord "Johnson's", you put the 5 R& D will often seek out information that m ay be 5 asterisk with the w ord "trademark" at the foot. 6 relevant to w hat they're w orking on. 6 Q Right. 7 A nd certainly back in '71, asbestos has been 7 A I don't know w hy, but that w as the directive. 8 raised as an issue. 8 Q D id they think if you m iss it one time, you 9 So m y read o f that is that the people were 9 give up the trademark? 10 d oing som ething v ery responsible to find o u t w h atever 10 A No knows? 11 th ey c o u ld a b o u t asbestos. 11 Q Okay. 12 Q But the story that J&J has continually told us 12 A Y ou know w hat you law yers are like. 13 is th at there has n e v er b e en asbestos, n ev er w as, n ever 13 Q W ell, I don't know. I'm not a tradem ark lawer. 14 w ill be in any product it ever made; correct? 14 I w ouldn't know , but that's a good point. 15 A Correct. 15 Okay. G o to the second page, under num ber 7: 16 Q Okay. This is Exhibit 120. 16 "In subsequent d iscu ssio n s..." 17 (Exhibit 120 m arked for identification) 17 N ow , look, they're talking about D r Lewin; 18 This is another memorandum; right? This one 18 right? 19 is to M r F uller and it's from D r N ashed. 19 A Yes. 20 Do you see that? 20 Q A nd D r Lewin was the one w ho said he had found 21 A Yes, yes. 21 chrysotile in Show er to Show er; right? 22 Q Okay. 22 A H e claim ed to, yes. 23 This is the sum m ary o f an FDA m eeting on 23 Q Okay. 24 A ugust 11, '72, okay, and it says under Sum m ary: 24 "In subsequent discussions, M r Ian Stewart 25 "The C T F A ... F D A ... a n d Johnson & Johnson 25 pointed out that light m icroscopy m ay not detect 52 (Pages 580 - 583) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 1 chrysotile fibers". Page 584 1 A N one o f those individuals did. Page 586 2 A nd that's true, isn't it, sir? 2 Q Okay. 3 A Yes. 3 A A nd certainly there were no toxicologists 4 Q That som e chrysotile fibers, while present, m ay 4 present. 5 be too thin to be visualized with an optical 5 Q Okay. 6 m icroscope? 6 N ow , let's see, I think that's all I have on 7 A Correct. 7 that document. Okay. Y ou can set that aside. 8 Q Right. 8 N ow , D r N ashed, he w as --he's a doctor; 9 "Dr W eissler said that they recognized that 10 som e sam ples w ill be passed on that basis but they are 9 right? 10 A He had a PhD, from memory. 11 w illin g to live w ith that". 11 Q In what? 12 R ig h t? 12 A I think it w as probably chem istry, but it's a 13 A W ell, that?s D r W eissler. FD A . 13 long tim e ago. 14 Q That's the FD A ? 14 Q Nevertheless, w hen the FD A proposed a 1 15 A Yeah. 15 per cent allow ance o f asbestos, D r N ashed d id n ot voice 16 Q Is saying that if there's an optical standard 16 an objection to that, d id he? 17 th at isn't g o in g to see all the chrysotile that's 17 A A pparently not. 18 th ere, the F D A w as fine w ith that; right? 18 Q No. 19 A Yeah. 19 A A t least not on that memo. 20 Q Now , Johnson & Johnson w as not fine w ith that; 20 Q This next one w ill be Exhibit 121. 21 right? 21 (E xhibit 121 m arked for identification) 22 A Correct. 22 T here you go, sir. 23 Q Because Johnson & Johnson would not endorse a 23 Now , this is a letter from D r Nashed to the 24 standard that w ould let asbestos past; correct? 24 Departm ent o f H ealth Education and W elfare; right? 25 A Correct. 25 A Yes. Page 585 Page 587 1 Q So let's go to the next sentence: 1 Q Is that w here the FD A is, in the D epartm ent o f 2 "Dr Shchaffher [again, w ith FD A ] said that 2 Health Education and W elfare? 3 this procedure w ill be adopted in the proposed policy 3 A N o, that FD A at the B ureau that w as m et w as in 4 statement. H e asked if anyone present had any 4 C Street, W ashington DC. 5 to xicological objections to the allow ance o f 1% ... 5 Q N o, w hat I m ean is - w hat I m ean is w hat is 6 [weight]". 6 the relationship, if any, betw een the FDA and the 7 A nd "w/w", is that w et weight, asbestos in 7 Departm ent o f H ealth Education and W elfare? 8 talc? 8 A They're both separate governm ent departments. 9 A Y es --no, it's w eight for weight. 9 Q Okay. A ll right. Okay. 10 Q W eight for weight. Okay. 10 So he w rites --this is a Johnson & Johnson 11 A Yes. 11 person, a n d by the w ay a n d he b lin d cc's basically 12 Q "He asked if anyone present had any 12 everybody w e'v e talk ed about. 13 to xicological o bjections to the allow ance o f 1 % ..." 13 A Yeah. 14 B y weight, basically; right? 14 Q Including M r Clare, the President; right? 15 A By weight, yes. 15 A Yeah. 16 Q "... asb esto s in t a l c ..." 16 Q A nd he says: 17 A Yes. 17 "D ear Sir: 18 Q "No objections were raised." 18 W e w ish to com m ent upon the proposed entitled 19 A Yes. 19 'F ood A dditives - - ... [Proposed] [sic] R egarding 20 Q Right? 20 Regulation o f Prior-Sanctioned Food Ingredients' which 21 A Yeah. 21 w as published in the Federal R egister o f A ugust 12, 22 Q Johnson & Johnson w as at the m eeting; right? 22 1972". 23 A Yeah. 23 Now, at this time the FDA was proposing a 24 Q And w hen the FDA guy proposed an allowance o f : 24 regulation on asbestos and talc, as well as a 25 per cent asbestos, did Johnson & Johnson object? 25 m ethodology for detecting it; correct. 53 (Pages 584 - 587) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 1 A There were. Page 588 1 Q W ell, is he wrong, too? Page 590 2 Q Okay. 2 A Again, there are certain assumptions here, 3 A T here w ere a lot o f w ork going on at the time. 3 because Nashed is commenting on the Departm ent o f 4 Q Yeah. 4 Health Education and W elfare proposal where they have 5 So it says dow n here: 5 m ade a statem ent w hich he or Johnson & Johnson believe 6 "The assum ptions we believe to be incorrect 6 to be incorrect. 7 are as follows: 7 H e's being a good scientist and saying: we 8 1. T alc can be p ro cessed to rem ove 8 think that's an incorrect statem ent that talc 9 asbestos-form p a rtic le s..." 9 processing can be done to rem ove asbestos particles. 10 R ig h t? 10 Q W ell, that's an accurate statement. 11 A That's w hat it says. 11 A That is an accurate statement. 12 Q So w hat Johnson & Johnson is telling the 12 Q Right, because they know it to be true? 13 D ep artm en t o f H ealth E ducation an d W elfare is, to the 13 A A nd he is correcting the Departm ent o f Health 14 extent that they are present, you can't process talc to 14 Education and W elfare. 15 rem o v e asb esto s form m inerals --o r particles; correct? 15 Q Right, because they know from their own 16 A Yes. 16 experim ents that it's not possible; correct? 17 Q Okay. 17 A Correct, yes. 18 A nd then they also say that: 18 Q A ll right. W e can set that aside. 19 "All asbestos-form particles m ay be injurious 19 A ll right. This w ill be Exhibit 122. 20 to h e a lth ..." 20 (Exhibit 122 m arked for identification) 21 They object to that, too; correct? 21 N ow , this is N ovem ber 29, '72. It is to the 22 A Yes. 22 FD A from D r Nashed; nght? 23 Q Okay. 23 A Yes. 24 Now, go down to num ber 1 below, because they 24 Q A nd he's -- there's his full title there, 25 put their basis for their objections, and they say: 25 D irector o f Science Inform ation; right? Page 589 Page 591 1 "W e know o f no process that guarantees total 1 A Yes. 2 removal o f all elongated particles from talc. The 2 Q Okay. 3 Johnson & Johnson process for beneficiating Vermont 3 Now, it says: 4 talc, which w e believe to be the m ost advanced in the 4 "W e w ere inform ed by Dr Estrin [who is at the 5 field, will not guarantee a zero tolerance for 5 C T F A ] ... th at D r L ew in h a d reported to y o u th at his 6 elongated particles". 6 exam ination o f L ots 108T and 109T o f Johnson's Baby 7 R ig h t? 7 Pow der show ed that they contained 2% and 3% chrysotih 8 A That's w hat it says. 8 respectively". 9 Q And, sir, w e know that to be true because we've 9 R ig h t? 10 looked at the actual studies w here they've been looking 10 A Yes. 11 a t those floats; right? 11 Q A nd they said: w e subm itted those tw o lots to 12 A Correct. 12 analysis by our five consultants; right? 13 Q A n d w e k n o w th at m inerals such as trem olite get 13 A Yes. 14 through; right? 14 Q Including M cCrone? 15 A Correct. 15 A Yes. 16 Q A nd w e know they get in the final product; 16 Q Right. 17 correct? 17 "The results clearly show that the lots in 18 A There is trem olite apparently in some o f those 18 question m anufactured from talc from our W indsor M ine 19 assays, yes. 19 in V erm ont contain no chrysotile asbestos". 20 Q B ut w hat N ashed is saying here is they can't 20 True? 21 guarantee zero tolerance for elongated particles; 21 A Yes, correct. 22 right? 22 Q And, sir, we know, and I flipped the chart for 23 A W ell, that's w hat he's saying. 23 you, that on O ctober 27 o f '72, M cC rone did test 108 24 Q Okay. 24 and 109T; correct? 25 A Yeah. 25 A Correct. 54 (Pages 588 - 591) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 592 Page 594 1 Q They didn't find chrysotile; right? 1 and read the newspapers, yeah. 2 A Yes. 2 Q Y ou've had access to the exact same docum ents 3 Q But they did find trem olite; right? 3 I've had access to; correct? 4 A They found trem olite, but it was never defined 4 A Yes, yes. 5 as asbestos. 5 Q Right. 6 Q They found it by optical microscopy, and they 6 A nd so I'm only asking you based on what 7 said that it was 5 per cent --half a per cent in one 7 Johnson & Johnson has provided to me; okay? 8 sam ple and .2 to .3 p e r cent in another sam ple, and 8 A Sure, sure. Yes. 9 they described them as "trem olite rods"; correct? 9 Q This is Exhibit 123. 10 A Yes, but th e y - 10 (Exhibit 123 m arked for identification) 11 Q Okay. 11 This is a docum ent authored by Gavin 12 A --didn't describe them as being asbestos 12 H ildick-S m ith; right? 13 trem olite. 13 A Yes. 14 Q Right. 14 Q A nd it is to D D Johnston; right? 15 W ell, again, this is one o f their 15 A Yes. 16 consultants. T hey didn't put the w ord "asbestos" in 16 Q W ho's D D Johnston at this point? 17 fro nt o f it, d id they? 17 A I don't know. It's not som eone I've come 18 A They did not. 18 across. 19 Q Okay. 19 Q W ell, Nashed, Petterson, Shelley, Fuller, they 20 In this letter, though, rem em ber Johnson & 20 all get it; right? 21 Johnson in an earlier m em o said: w e have been charged 21 A Yes. 22 to give full inform ation to the FDA; right? 22 Q O kay, and this is D r Nashed's copy -- 23 A Yes. 23 A Yes. 24 Q So in a letter to the FD A about those specific 25 sam ples, 108 and 109T, they say that their studies 24 Q - that we're looking at? 25 A Yeah, yeah. Page 593 Page 595 1 show ed that it didn't have chrysotile, but they knew it 1 Q Okay. 2 had trem olite, and they didn't disclose that, did they? 2 Literally, the subject is called Antagonistic 3 A No. 3 Personalities In The Talc Story In The USA; right? 4 Q Okay. 4 A That's the title, yes. 5 And, in fact, sir, there w as another m em o you 5 Q Okay, and he says: 6 and I discussed earlier where, it's either Schaffher or 6 "M r DD Johnston: 7 it's W eissler from the FD A , says: is there trem olite in 7 The increase in the profile o f talc as a 8 your talc? Right? 8 potential health hazard has been actively prom oted by a 9 A Yes. 9 num ber o f individuals for a variety o f reasons. The 10 Q A nd they respond and ju st said: w ell, there's 10 start o f the attack on talc originated in E ngland at 11 n o asbestos? 11 the T enovus R esearch Institute in C a rd iff w here a 12 A Yes, correct. 12 technician in m icroscopy published a paper. In the U SA 13 Q Okay. 13 the leading group w h o initiated the a ttack o n talc is 14 A gain here, no m ention o f the trem olite that 14 located in N ew Y ork C ity and consists o f the following: 15 w as found in the specific sam ples th at the F D A w as 15 1. D r S e lik o ff o f the M t. Sinai H ospital, 16 asking for; true? 16 w ho is an epidem iologist heavily involved w ith asbestos 17 A Yeah. The FD A asked about chrysotile. 17 an d its adverse effects on health". 18 Q All right. 18 Did I read that right? 19 Now, Johnson & Johnson was pretty active in 19 A You did. 20 m onitoring folks w ho had opinions that were negative 20 Q So this individual identifies D r Selikoff as an 21 for Johnson & Johnson; right? 21 antagonistic personality; right? 22 A Y ou're stating that. I don't have the evidence 22 A I d o n 't see the w o rd "personality", b u t ... 23 for any m onitoring program . 23 Q W ell, it's at the top? 24 Q W ell, let's be clear -- 24 A Okay. Yeah. Y ou're right. 25 A They w ould certainly have read the literature 25 Q Right. 55 (Pages 592 - 595) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 1 Go to num ber 2. Page 596 1 A Yeah. Page 598 2 A D rLanger. 2 Q A nd said: let's pay him ; right? 3 Q "Dr Langer, who w orks w ith D r Selikoff, is a 3 A W ell, for his advice. 4 m icroscopist w ho visually identifies chrysotile in m ost 4 Q That's --is that 124? 5 sam ples o f talc that he exam ines, although, he seldom 5 A 124. 6 confirm s the identity by chemical means". 6 Q Okay. 7 Again, an antagonistic personality; right? 7 (Exhibit 124 m arked for identification) 8 A That's w hat it says. 8 A ll right. This is a m eeting on talc at 9 Q And then he just has a general category for -- 9 V anderbilt com pany head quarters. 10 o n nu m b er 3: 10 Now, Vanderbilt had a m ine in New York called 11 "There are others in D r Selikoffs department 11 G ouvem eur; right? 12 w h o have the sam e m ental attitude as D r S e lik o ff'. 12 A I'm aw are o f that. 13 R ig h t? 13 Q Okay. 14 A That's w hat it says, yes. 14 A nd this is H ildick-Sm ith w riting this. This 15 Q H e n am es Jerom e K retchm er, w h o 's a politician 15 is d ated Jan u ary 15, '73: 16 in N ew Y ork, a n d he's the D irecto r o f th e E nvironm ental 16 "On W ednesday, January 10,1973, M r Bacon of 17 P rotection A g e n cy o f N e w Y ork, right? 17 the V anderbilt C om pany called to inform m e that he w as 18 A Yes. 18 convening a m eeting w ith m em bers o f his com pany and 19 Q He nam es D r Rom er, w ho's in the same 19 representatives o f other com panies m ining talc w ith a 20 department? 20 view to discussing the A m erican Society for Testing 21 A Yeah. 21 M aterials' interest in developing a definition for 22 Q H e even nam es D r W eissler o f the FDA; right? 22 talc, trem olite and asbestos". 23 A Yeah. 23 So that's our context; okay? 24 Q He nam es D r Lewin, o f course; right? 24 A 1973, yes. 25 A Yes. 25 Q A ll right. Page 597 1 Q Who was a consultant to the FDA? 1 2 A Yes. 2 3 Q Right? 3 4 Okay. Now, why would Johnson & Johnson want 4 5 to keep track o f "antagonistic personalities in the 5 6 USA"? 6 7 Sounds kind o f McCarthyist, doesn't it? 7 8 A It does, doesn't it? 8 9 Q Yeah. 9 10 A But, you know, at the time, people used those 10 11 words --1972 - you are looking for anyone who, for 11 12 whatever reason, is --has got an axe to grind. 12 13 And in this case, we've said that the guy 13 14 Kretchmer was intending to become Mayor o f New York, or 14 15 his sidekick. So there are various people who have 15 16 their own axe to grind, and one way of doing that is to 16 17 come up with a story. 17 18 It still goes on today. 18 19 Q All right. 19 20 A There's different things. So ... 20 21 Q Well, the number 1 guy, Selikoff, was someone 21 22 that Johnson & Johnson was going to hire as a 22 23 consultant; right? 23 24 A Yes. 24 25 Q Even met with him? 25 Page 599 A Yes. Q Down next paragraph: "In a discussion w ith D r N ashed, it was his opinion that it w ould not be in our interest to have anyone attend this m eeting as w e don't have to be associated w ith those w ho have an interest in exonerating tremolite. I concur with D r Nashed and w ould appreciate your opinion on the subject". So at least their view was that Vanderbilt was trying to exonerate trem olite; correct? A W ell, M r Bacon o f V anderbilt is stating that they were looking to exonerate tremolite, yes. Q Right. Okay. A ll right. A nd at this point, does the general public have any idea that there have been numerous tests show ing trem olite in Johnson & Johnson's source talc and end product? A I don't know. Q Okay. Y ou're not aw are o f any -- A N o, I'm not aware. Q --disclosure to the public? A N o, no. Q Okay. A nd then dow n here, this looks like it's 56 (Pages 596 - 599) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 600 Page 602 1 Shelley w rites back? 1 chrysotile, such as quartz or cellulose w ill give rise 2 A Yeah, could be. 2 to a positive result. This m ethod will not detect 3 Q He says: 3 other forms o f asbestos". 4 "I agree until --I agree with you and D r 4 Okay. So as far as they're concerned right 5 Nashed. W e do not wish to be clearly identified with 5 now , w hatever the M cCrone m ethod is they're talking 6 an attem pt to support high trem olite talcs as safe for 6 about, is for chrysotile, if anything, and nothing 7 cosmetics". 7 else; right? 8 R ig h t? 8 A That particular test, yes. 9 A Yes. 9 Q Okay. 10 Q So if Vanderbilt had a high trem olite talc, I 10 "The m ethod described by D r Pooley is also 11 g uess w as Jo h n so n & Jo h n so n a lo w trem olite talc? 11 u sed to d etect a n d m easure chrysotile". 12 A W ell, from m y understanding o f the Vanderbilt 12 A nd then at the end o f that paragraph: 13 m ine, i f th at w a s the G o u v em eu r m ine, th at w as clearly 13 "He reports as a low er lim it o f detection 14 very, very different from the Johnson & Johnson m ines. 14 0.05% chrysotile". 15 V ery, very different. 15 R ig h t? 16 Q Vanderbilt generally sold a totally different 16 A Yes. 17 grade o f talc th an J& J? 17 Q W ith the concentration method? 18 A Totally different product. 18 A W ith the concentration method, yes. 19 Q understand. Okay. 19 Q "Both m ethods share the same weakness. They do 20 This w ill be 125. 20 not m easure or detect other potentially troublesome 21 (Exhibit 125 m arked for identification) 21 form s o f asbestos, such as trem olite, anthophyllite, 22 A ll right. So another mem o. This one is 22 amosite, or crocidolite. All three techniques require 23 from M G oodm an, cc'ing five people, including 23 well trained people and o f course some highly 24 M r Ashton, to Petterson, and this is entitled W eekly 24 sophisticated equipment. 25 M onitoring o f Verm ont Talc; right? 25 Presently, Q A does not have the equipment Page 601 Page 603 1 A Yes. 1 and, I am informed, the m anpower to do the job". 2 Q So this w ill -- this is '73. This w ill give us 2 So he suggests, then, a series o f ways to do 3 an idea o f w hat the m onitoring was; right? 3 this testing. 4 A Sure. 4 A Sure. 5 Q Okay. 5 Q He says: we should take samples from Vermont on 6 It says nu m b er 1, a n d they're talking about 6 a regular basis and send it to ESDP. 7 talc - w ell, let's skip that: 7 N ow , is that a -- 8 "W e are currently using this te c h n iq u e ..." 8 A It stands for Eastern Surgical Dressings Plant. 9 X -ray diffraction; right? 9 It's the place w here the talc w as filled into pots. 10 "... to m onitor our talc, the m ethod has a 10 Q Okay. 11 d etectio n lim it o f c a 1% an d it w ill d etect the various 11 A nd that is a test for m icrobial content; 12 form s o f asbestos". 12 right? 13 R ig h t? 13 A Yes. 14 A Yes. 14 Q Okay. 15 Q Okay. 15 "A l's group w ould run these sam ples by 16 A detection lim it o f 1 per cent means if the 16 straight x-ray diffraction, the M cC rone m ethod and the 17 su bstance you 're looking fo r is th ere a t less th an 1 17 Pooley m ethod, collecting the data and getting a good 18 p e r cent, y o u w o u ld n 't expect to see it; correct? 18 feel fo r the techniques". 19 A There w ould be a low er probability, yes. 19 So they're still kind o f feeling their w ay 20 Q Okay. 20 out-- 21 "The M cCrone m ethod for the detection o f 21 A Yeah. 22 chrysotile in talc is based on a light m icroscopic 22 Q --on w hat they're going to do; right? 23 technique. It is neither sim ple nor specific in that 23 A Yes. 24 it requires a highly trained optical m icroscopist to 24 Q They talk about having people trained by 25 run it and substances with the sam e refractive index as 25 M cCrone. 57 (Pages 600 - 603) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 604 Page 606 1 B ut if w e go dow n to 6: 1 is clear to m e that if w e find asbestos by the straight 2 "W e m ust decide w hat course o f action w e will 2 x-ray diffraction technique w e can not use that batch 3 take if any sam ple gives rise to a positive test". 3 o f talc. But w hat do we do if w e find chrysotile by 4 N ow , the action they should take with a 4 Pooley's m ethod? Should w e use the m aterial?" 5 positive test, sir, based on what you and I talked 5 Now , chrysotile is asbestos; right? 6 about, is rejection o f the lot, recall o f any o f the 6 A Yes, it is, yeah. 7 products m ade from that lot; right? 7 Q A nd he's saying, hypothetically, w hat if we 8 A O r you go to try to find out if the m aterial is 8 find it? 9 chrysotile by whatever m eans possible beyond x-ray 9 Because Pooley uses the concentration 10 diffraction. 10 technique; right? 11 Q Y eah, I suppose I'm asking if it's confirm ed, a 11 A Yes, yes. 12 p ositive te s t th at's confirm ed? 12 Q "Should w e use the m aterial?" 13 A Yes. 13 Now, no one at Johnson & Johnson should be 14 Q Okay? 14 asking the question. The answ er is: you do not use the 15 A Yeah. 15 m aterial. 16 Q If it's confirm ed that there's, like, 16 Right? 17 ch rysotile asbestos present? 17 A Yes, and I don't know w ho M G oodm an is - 18 A Yes, yes. If it's-- 18 Q Okay. 19 Q That's got to be a recall? 19 A --or was. 20 A If it is chrysotile, you would expect it to be, 20 Q Okay. 21 yes. 21 "Since w e are dealing with a continuous 22 Q Okay. 22 process, w ould w e have to examine material made from 23 Y ou can't use that lot. Y ou've got to reject 23 previous shipments?" 24 that lot? 24 W ell, the answ er to that w ould be yes; right? 25 A Yes. 25 A Yes. Page 605 Page 607 1 Q Right? 1 Q "If these too show chrysotile, w hat w ould we 2 A nd if the lot has been processed into 2 have to issue - w ould we have to issue a recall?" 3 product, you've got to get that product back? 3 W ell, the answ er to that is yes; right? 4 A Yes. 4 A Yes, and I think this could well have been M 5 Q Right. Okay. 5 G oodm an - I've never heard o f him or her --could well 6 A nd, as you sit here today, you can't recall 6 have been a junior operative w ho's asking a reasonable 7 that J& J --you've never seen any record that they 7 question. 8 actually did reject a lot; correct? 8 Q O kay, and we'll see if there w as an answ er to 9 A J& J rejected several lots before filling, and 9 these questions. 10 in one case I th in k after filling, w here there w as 10 "Pete, I do not have answers to these 11 m icrobial contam ination. 11 questions an d so m y recom m endation is th at w e m ove 12 Q Okay. 12 cautiously on this one, m aking sure that each step 13 A A nd w e --you alluded to that on point 1 about 13 forw ard is the p ro p er an d correct one. L et u s not 14 m icrobial checks. 14 generate unreliable or m eaningless data ju st for the 15 So batches were certainly rejected for 15 sake o f generating data." 16 m icrobial content. 16 D id I read that right? 17 Q O kay, and I'm sorry, I w asn't specific. 17 A Y ou read --you read what was written, yes. 18 Johnson & Johnson, to your knowledge, from 18 Q Right. 19 everything you've seen, never rejected a lot for 19 A nd to be very clear, you and I are not 20 asbestos content? 20 reading front to back all o f these m em os at all; right? 21 A I'm not aw are that they ever found asbestos to 21 A Correct. 22 reject a lot. 22 Q That could take an eternity? 23 Q So he says: 23 A It would, indeed. 24 "W e m ust decide what course o f action we will 24 Q A literal eternity? 25 take if any sam ple gives rise to a positive test. It 25 A Yes, yes. 58 (Pages 604 - 607) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 608 Page 610 1 Q Okay. A ll right. You can set that aside. 1 A Correct. 2 This next one is 126. 2 Q N evertheless, here in 1973, an individual, Bob 3 (Exhibit 126 m arked for identification) 3 Rolle, w ho's in the B aby Products Com pany, has set out 4 A ll right, sir. Now , you can see this is 4 to figure out if there's 1 per cent asbestos in the 5 w ritten by B ob Rolle. It's handw ritten. 5 talc, how m uch w ould a baby breathe; right? 6 A It is, yes. 6 A That's --that's w hat he's tried to do, yes. 7 Q Right. 7 Q Okay. 8 It's received February 12, '73, by D r N ashed; 8 B ut there's no asbestos in their product, 9 correct? 9 right, according to Johnson & Johnson? 10 A Yes. 10 A Yes. 11 Q And at the top it says: 11 Q Okay. Y ou can set that aside. 12 "A ccording to Pooley's report entitled 12 A ll right. This w ill be 127. 13 'R eport o f D usting E xperim ent P erform ed w ith Johnson 13 (Exhibit 127 m arked for identification) 14 a n d Jo hnson's B ab y P ow der', p ag e 12, a b ab y breathes in 14 This brings us back to the memo about Johnson 15 a total o f..." 15 & Jo h n so n d iscussing V anderbilt an d p otentially m eeting 16 A nd then he has particles per cubic foot, 16 w ith M r V anderbilt --or M r B acon from R T V anderbilt; 17 rig ht, an d it's 2.2 [sic] x 106? 17 right? 18 A Yes. 18 A Y es, that's w hat I read, yes. 19 Q Right? 19 Q Okay. 20 N ow , I think it's obvious I'm not a 20 So this is from Bill Ashton to Hildick-Smith 21 m athem atician. W hat is 2.2 [sic] x 106, i f you know? 21 and there's som e folks cc'd, and he says: 22 A It's ju st over 2 m illion. 22 "I attended a m eeting with talc manufactures 23 Q 2 m illions particles per cubic foot? 23 w hich R Bacon o f V anderbilt called in his N ew York 24 A Yeah. 24 offices yesterday. V anderbilt's idea w as to try to 25 Q Okay. 25 elicit and unify presentations w hich talc firms m ight Page 609 Page 611 1 So, according to tests that Pooley did, when 1 present to the U S B M ..." 2 a baby is pow dered w ith Johnson & Johnson's B aby 2 That's the US Bureau o f M ines; right? 3 Powder, they breathe in 2.12 m illion particles per 3 A Yes. 4 cubic foot; right? 4 Q "... a t the Talc Safety Sym posium scheduled for 5 A I f you breathe in a cubic foot, yes. 5 M ay 8th, in W ashington, DC". 6 Q Okay. A ll right. 6 N ow , go dow n to nu m b er 1): 7 A nd then it says: 7 "Johns M anville is going to take the position 8 "If 1 per cent o f these particles were 8 that trem olite is an asbestos mineral and they will not 9 asbestos fibers, then w e have .02 x 106 particles o f 9 go along w ith the type o f science w hich Vanderbilt has 10 fibers o f asbestos per foot; right? 10 been indicating, aim ed at confusing the m ineralology o f 11 A Correct. 11 talc". 12 Q H e's actually doing m ath on how m uch asbestos a 12 Did I read that right? 13 b a b y o r a c h ild w o u ld breathe i f 1 p e r cen t o f the 13 A You read w hat was written, yes. 14 particles w ere asbestos fibers; right? 14 Q So, at least according to Johnson & Johnson's 15 A Yes. 15 understanding, V an d erb ilt is trying to confuse the 16 Q Okay. 16 m ineralology o f talc as th ey go forw ard w ith these 17 A Breathe in, yeah. 17 regulations; correct? 18 Q Yeah. 18 A That's --that's an interpretation. 19 A H e's not done the m ath to say how m any you'd 19 It actually says: 20 breathe out, w hich w hen w e breathe, w e breathe in; w e 20 "... w ill not go along w ith the type o f 21 b reath out. 21 science w hich V anderbilt has been indicating, aim ed at 22 Q Yes, sure. Sure. 22 confusing the m ineralology o f talc". 23 Every particle o f w hatever you're breathing 23 Q Right. 24 doesn't go straight into your lungs. Som e o f it com es 24 A H e's saying that V anderbilt has been doing 25 back out; right? 25 this, yes. 59 (Pages 608-611) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 1 Q Right. Page 612 1 A Yes. Page 614 2 T hat V anderbilt's strategy or "science" is 2 Q Okay. 3 aim ed at confusing the m ineralology o f talc; correct? 3 Now, remember in the previous memo they were 4 A That's w hat he's stating. 4 talking about how Vanderbilt was trying to use science 5 Q Okay. 5 to confuse the m ineralology o f tremolite; do you 6 A It's his opinion, yes. 6 recall? 7 Q Right. Right. 7 A That was the comment, yes. 8 A nd I'm relating that correctly; fair? 8 Q Okay, and that now their story was not 9 A Y ou're com m enting on V anderbilt's state, yes. 9 accepted? 10 Q Okay. 10 A Yes. 11 A nd you agree with m y interpretation o f what 11 Q Right. Okay. 12 h e's saying there; right? 12 Bureau o f M ines M eeting: 13 A Broadly, yes. 13 "M r Norw ood expressed the view that 14 Q Okay. Right. Okay. 14 V anderbilt is acting very rashly in raising the 15 So that's all w e need from that document. 15 q u estion o n talc safety and he agreed th at th ey are 16 Som etim es these story lines go over several dozen 16 desperate ... i f th ey lo se th eir 'trem olite is safe' 17 d o cum ents, as y ou've seen. 17 argum ent, th ey w ill be out o f the talc business and 18 This next one I believe is the next kind o f 18 therefore w ould n ot b e interested in defending safety 19 ch ap ter to the V an d erb ilt issue. T h is w ill b e E xhibit 19 o f talc p e r se. H e felt that questions on safety o f 20 128. 20 talc fibers other than trem olite could reflect on the 21 (Exhibit 128 m arked for identification) 21 w hole talc industry. H e thought V anderbilt's defense 22 So the last docum ent w as A pril 13, '73. This 22 o f trem olite is very w eak and that the m eeting at the 23 is A pril 24. So 11 days later; right, sir? 23 Bureau o f M ines is bound to raise problem s for the talc 24 A Yes. 24 industry; therefore, they have decided to avoid all 25 Q It's from D r Nashed. 25 involvem ent w ith Vanderbilt". Page 613 Page 615 1 A Yeah. 1 Then he has an A ddendum at the bottom: 2 Q A nd the subject is Talc/Asbestos, confidential 2 "I called Pfizer today to determ ine FDA's 3 memo: 3 attitude tow ards m icroscopy. M r Stanley (M r N orw ood's 4 "I talked with M r Norw ood o f Pfizer on the 4 associate) said that the FD A m icroscopist was o f the 5 phone today to touch base on their current activities 5 opinion that optical m icroscopy was not suitable as a 6 and their views on Vanderbilt and the Bureau o f M ines 6 control method. Also, they feel that they have 7 m eeting". 7 convinced D r W eissler that scanning electron microscopy 8 H ig h lig h t: 8 is also useless". 9 "M r N orw ood said that he follow ed m y advice 9 Okay. N ow , is scanning electron microscopy 10 to adopt th e attitude th at P fiz er is there to see w hat 10 useless for looking for asbestos in talc? 11 th ey can d o to help F D A in m ethodology. H e also 11 A N ot if it's done properly. 12 follow ed m y advice an d d id n o t m ention th at he had been 12 Q Okay. 13 talking to Jo h n so n & Johnson". 13 W ell, that's a caveat for any analysis 14 Okay. Do you know w hy he gave that advice? 14 technique; right? 15 A N o, I don't. 15 A Sure. Yes, yeah. 16 Q Okay. N ext page: 16 Q Y ou've got to do it properly or it could be 17 "He said that subsequent to the m eeting, they 17 useless; right? 18 have b een in fo rm ed b y Sherw in-W illiam s th at th ey w ill 18 A Yeah, yeah. 19 discontinue use o f N ew Y o rk talc ..." 19 Q Okay. 20 N ow , that's the V anderbilt talc; right? 20 A And, you know , overall here, I w ouldn't com m ent 21 A Correct. 21 on w hat V anderbilt had been saying in their opinions. 22 Q "... because o f their feeling that trem olite 22 Q W e only have w hat's reflected in the memos; 23 m ay be a problem , i.e., V anderbilt's story w as not 23 right? 24 accepted". 24 A Yeah. 25 R ig h t? 25 Q This w ill be Exhibit 129. 60 (Pages 612-615) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 616 Page 618 1 (Exhibit 129 m arked for identification) 1 A nd that was a positive thing that Johnson & 2 This is a memo from April 26,1973, from M r 2 Johnson w ould put out to consumers and nurses and 3 Petterson to DD Johnson; right? 3 doctors; right? 4 A Yes. 4 A Yes, yes. 5 Q A nd it's a discussion o f - the subject is 5 Q N um ber 2: 6 W indsor M inerals and Talc. 6 "It is possible that the technique o f 7 It says: 7 identification for asbestos or asbestos-form m aterials 8 "Bill Ashton and I visited w ith Roger M iller 8 w ill be an optical approach. It probably will be some 9 and V ernon Zeitz on A pril 18th". 9 variation o f the M cCrone method. This m ethod with 10 Now, those were the two guys that were 10 appropriate concentrating techniques w ill perm it a good 11 in volved in W indsor M ines; right? 11 laboratory to identify asbestos o r trem olite in a talc 12 A They are, yes. 12 sam ple". 13 Q Okay. 13 D id I read that right? 14 "W e covered a num ber o f points o f 14 A Y ou did. 15 considerable concern. 15 Q Okay. Go to the next page, please: 16 ... It is o u r jo in t conclusion th at w e should 16 "As for B aby Powder, the entire thrust o f our 17 n o t rely o n the 'C lean M ine1ap p roach as a protective 17 com m unications w ith the FD A has concentrated on 18 device fo r B ab y P o w d er in the cu rren t A sbestos or 18 asbestos as harm ful fiber-like m aterial. Sophisticated 19 A sb estos-F orm controversy". 19 techniques have b een proposed to m ake sure that 20 W hat do they m ean by that? 20 fiber-form m aterials present in samples were identified 21 A It m eans that the clean m ine approach is -- 21 as being asbestos. The im plication is that all other 22 w hich basically says that if you've got a clean m ine as 22 fiber-form s, if present, w ere talc or other minerals 23 far as freedom from asbestos is concerned, that in 23 and these were safe. This posture will no longer be 24 itself is not the last word. Y ou've got to go a step 24 satisfactory. If the FD A Food Division, w hich is 25 further. 25 m oving m ore rapidly than the Cosm etic Division, Page 617 Page 619 1 Q Right. 1 publishes a standard, it will probably be to ban 2 T hey're saying: w e should not rely on, oh, 2 asbestos-form or fibrous m aterial in talc". 3 w ell, w e've tested the m ine and it's clean, so 3 First o f all, did I read that right? 4 everything m ust be clean; right? 4 A You read it correctly, yes. 5 A Yes. 5 Q A nd you know that sort o f the history here is 6 Q Okay. 6 that the Food D ivision o f the FD A and the Cosm etic 7 "W e believe this m ine to be very clean, 7 D ivision were both sort o f on their own tracks in 8 how ever --clean; however, w e are also confident that 8 developing a m ethodology for the detection o f asbestos 9 fiber forming or fiber type m inerals could be found". 9 in talc? 10 And, in fact, sir, w e know by this point they 10 A Correct. 11 h a d b een found; right? 11 Q Right? Okay. 12 A Yes. 12 Let's go to the next highlight: 13 Q Okay. 13 "Occasionally sub-trace quantities o f 14 "The usefulness o f the 'Clean M ine' approach 14 trem olite or actinolite are identified (O ptical 15 fo r asbestos o n ly is over". 15 M icroscope) a n d these m ig h t b e classed as asbestos 16 R ig h t? 16 fiber". 17 A That's w hat it states, yes. 17 A nd that is in line w ith w hat we've seen from 18 Q N ow , up to this point, w e've seen a few --you 18 som e o f the results w e've got on our board; correct? 19 a n d I have b e en through a few P R statem ents th at have 19 A H e said they m ight be classified -- 20 been put out by Johnson & Johnson, and one o f the first 20 Q Right. 21 things that they routinely say is: w e select our m ines 21 A --as asbestos fiber. 22 to be clean m ines; right? 22 Q Sure, sure. 23 A Correct. 23 A nd, o f course, w e've seen them classified 24 Q Okay. 24 definitively as asbestifiber [sic] by M cCrone; correct? 25 And: w e own our ow n mines. 25 A In some cases. 61 (Pages 616 - 619) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 620 Page 622 1 Q Right. 1 A Y ou're looking for a sensitive m ethod. 2 N ot in every sample; right? 2 Q Right. Okay. 3 A Yes, yes. 3 This is Exhibit 130. 4 Q "W e have been pursuing several alternatives to 4 (Exhibit 130 m arked for identification) 5 better protect our pow der franchise. These include an 5 Right. D o you see that this is entitled 6 improvem ent in the flotation technique to better select 6 Proposed Specs for Analyzing Talc for Asbestos? Do yot 7 platy talc, and perhaps reduce any trem olite or talc 7 see that? 8 shards". 8 A Yes. 9 Again, that was what we looked at this 9 Q Okay. 10 m orning w ith the suppression m ethods for asbestiform 10 I f you turn the page, it's a m em o from 11 a n d chrysotile; correct? 11 S helley to R olle; correct? 12 A Yes. He said, "perhaps reduce any talc 12 A Correct. 13 shards". 13 Q Shelley is the fellow with the five patents, or 14 Q Yeah. W ell, w e know from the experim ents that 14 whatever? 15 w ere run th at th ey actually d id red u ce the asbestiform ; 15 A Yes. 16 correct? 16 Q All right. Okay. 17 A They reduced, yes, trem olite, yes. 17 A ll right. It says: 18 Q A ll right. 18 "I am going to England Friday, M ay 25. I 19 N ext page, w hich is the last page: 19 have been asked to bring along our proposed specs for 20 "It should be cautioned, however, that no 20 analyzing talc for 'asbestos'". 21 final product will ever be m ade w hich w ill be totally 21 A nd then he says: 22 free from respirable particles". 22 "England is considering m ethod o f 23 A nd, sir, that's true today. Johnson & 23 preconcentrating the asbestos so as to be able to 24 Johnson talc, baby pow der, anybody's cosm etic talc has 24 analyze by x-ray. T hey find no 'asbestos' by doing 25 respirable particles in it; correct? 25 this with Italian talc. They (Pooley) find 0.05% o f a Page 621 Page 623 1 A Yes, yes. 1 trem olite-type in Vermont". 2 Q A nd then c., he says: 2 R ig h t? 3 "C om Starch is obviously another answer. 3 A They find, yes, trem olite, yes. 4 The product is by its very nature - the product b y its 4 Q Okay. 5 very nature does not contain fibers. Furthermore, it 5 A Yes. 6 is assim ilated by the body". 6 Q So they're saying i f they use the concentration 7 R ig h t? 7 m ethod, they do see the trem olite in the Verm ont talc; 8 A Correct. 8 correct? 9 Q So cornstarch, again, w e've seen it m entioned 9 A Yes. 10 h a lf dozen tim es o r so b y now ; right? 10 Q Okay. 11 A Yes. 11 N ow , if you'll go to the page at the bottom , 12 Q Okay. 12 it's 1896, and they're talking about the 13 A nd in 1973, M r Petterson here is saying: you 13 preco n cen tratio n o f asbestos P o o ley m ethod; right? 14 k now , cornstarch is another th in g w e c o u ld lo o k at 14 A Yes. 15 in stead o f talc; right? 15 Q Okay. 16 A Yeah, yeah. 16 So let's read this carefully and see w hat it 17 Q Okay. Y ou can set that aside, sir. 17 says: 18 Now, earlier you and I talked about how, if 18 "Pooley has developed two techniques for 19 y o u are investigating a raw m aterial fo r som ething th at 19 p reco n cen tratio n o f chrysotile a n d trem olite in talc 20 could be dangerous, you w ant to use the m ost sensitive, 20 follow ed by x-ray diffraction analysis. For chrysotile 21 b e st m ethods possible; right? 21 ... h is level o f detectability is 0.05% an d w h en this 22 A Yes. 22 m ethod is applied to Italian and V erm ont talc, no 23 Q Y ou w ouldn't w ant to --you w ouldn't to not use 23 chrysotile is detected. The second technique developed 24 a sensitive m ethod because it happens to find w hat 24 also by D r Pooley involves preconcentration o f 25 you're concerned about; right? 25 trem olite in talc (different procedure) followed by 62 (Pages 620 - 623) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 624 Page 626 1 x-ray diffraction analysis. This technique has not 1 I think you told m e that yesterday. You 2 been w ritten up yet, but evidently when applied to 2 talked to me at length - at some length about your 3 Verm ont talc 0.05% o f trem olite-type is found. The 3 consultants, and you said: look, these are scientists. 4 lim itation o f this m ethod is that it m ay be too 4 Y ou accept the results? 5 sensitive". 5 A Yes. 6 D id I read that right? 6 Q Right? 7 A Y ou read it correctly, yes. 7 A nd so this scientist, D r Pooley, created a 8 Q So lim itation - w hen you talk about scientific 8 w ay to be able to low er the lim it o f detection, meaning 9 w ork, a lim itation is a weakness; correct? 9 to improve the lim it o f detection; right? 10 A It is a phraseology. 10 A He had an experiment, which it was never 11 I'm not sure w hat it m eant in this context; 11 co m m ercialized o r m ade available, b u t he obviously did 12 w hether it m ight give you false negative or faults 12 som e experim ents to show that th at w as technically 13 positive. 13 possible. 14 It's --it's w hat it says. It says w hat it 14 Q W ell, and w hat w e know is Johnson & Johnson's 15 says. 15 com m entary w as th at after th ey saw th at it w o u ld see 16 Q All right. 16 the trem olite, it w as too sensitive. 17 So let's be real clear about w hat it says. 17 So m y question is: I assum e Johnson & Johnson 18 It d oesn't sa y "false negative" a n d it d oesn't say 18 never adopted that m ethod internally; correct? 19 "false positive"; correct? 19 A It never becam e comm ercially available. 20 A It says it m ay be too sensitive. 20 B ut the corollary o f that is that, which you 21 Q Right. 21 claim , trem olite w as also detectable by the m ethod 22 He says: w hen he looks at our Verm ont talc, 22 w hich was later agreed across the whole industry, which 23 he can see .05 per cent trem olite; right? 23 w as by the CTFA J4 method. 24 A Trem olite-type, yes. 24 Q That's right, b ut the J4 w as --had a detection 25 Q Right? 25 lim it that was ten tim es higher, m eaning that the Page 625 Page 627 1 A Yes. 1 detection lim it fo r C T FA J4 w as .5 p e r cent; right? 2 Q So the lim itation o f the m ethod is it's too 2 A O f asbestos? 3 sensitive, m eaning - the converse m eaning it w ould not 3 Q O f asbestos? 4 be a lim itation o f the m ethod if it was less sensitive; 4 A Yes, yes. 5 right? 5 Q Okay. 6 A Correct. 6 It was for am phiboles specifically. So 7 Q Okay. 7 trem olite, actinolite, anthophyllite? 8 A nd that was --that m em o, the m em o attaching 8 A O f asbestos, but not --the m ethod does not 9 this was Shelley? Is that w ho it was? 9 separate out a t that point w hether the trem olite is 10 Yeah. Shelley to Rolle; correct? 10 asbestos trem olite or otherw ise. 11 A Probably the other w ay around, is it? Rolle to 11 Q Right. 12 Shelley. 12 W e're talking about X R D right now? 13 Q Oh, okay. Sorry. 13 A Yes. 14 A ll right. That's all w e need on that one. 14 Q Right, and that's w hat Pooley was doing; right? 15 M R GAFFREY : Did we get a date on that? 15 A Yes. 16 M R PA N A TIE R : Y eah. T hat is M ay 16,'73. 16 Q Okay. 17 Okay. 17 Pooley had shown Johnson & Johnson that you 18 Q D o y o u k now after M ay 16 o f '73 -- w h en w e have 18 co uld have a detection lim it dow n to .05 p e r cent, 19 that m ethod - do y ou know i f anybody, or have y o u seen 19 w hich w as ten tim es b etter than w hat the C T FA did a few 20 a mem o w here anybody said: hey, look, w e have to use 20 years later; right? 21 the m ost sensitive m ethod. If it's sensitive and it 21 A B y --w ell, about one year later, I think. 22 sees the asbestos, we have to live w ith those results; 22 '73, '74, yeah. 23 right? 23 But w hat the CTFA m ethod did was to add on, 24 A Yes. 24 and J& J took the second level, by adding on electron 25 Q Okay. 25 m icroscopy, as w ell as optical. 63 (Pages 624 - 627) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 628 1 And it was electron microscopy which gives 1 2 you pretty well the same level o f sensitivity as Pooley 2 3 was getting. 3 4 Q Well, let's be clear, the CTFA method was, 4 5 first o f all, in 1976. 5 6 You understand that; right? 6 7 A The final publication was '76. 7 8 Q Okay. 8 9 A But J&J was involved in the work up and the 9 10 development o f that method, and pretty well had it 10 11 in-house from a year or two before '76. 11 12 Q And did the CTFA method ever actually endorse 12 13 in any way TEM? 13 14 A No, J&J took it right from the very beginning, 14 15 even way before CTFA method was published - J&J added 15 16 on the transmission electron microscopy and infrared 16 17 microscopy. 17 18 Q The only reason I asked that is you said J4 18 19 included electron microscopy, but it did not? 19 20 A No, it did not. 20 21 Q Okay. 21 22 A No, J4 was x-ray diffraction plus polarized 22 23 light microscopy. 23 24 Q Okay. 24 25 A J&J added on to raise the sensitivity, and 25 Page 629 1 w e 've b een talk in g about sensitivity -- they a d d ed on 1 2 electron m icroscopy and infrared. 2 3 Q Okay. 3 4 B ut let's be clear, though, about how J4 4 5 w orked, and i f w e need to pull it, w e can look at it. 5 6 But the w ay the J4 worked w as first you 6 7 looked at the sam ple w ith XRD; right? 7 8 A Yes. 8 9 Q A nd the XRD under the J4 method, put together 9 10 by the C T FA , the lim it o f detection w as .5 per cent? 10 11 A Yes. 11 12 Q I f you didn't see anything, you passed the 12 13 talc; correct? 13 14 A That is w hat the m ethod stated, yes. 14 15 Q I f you saw som ething at .5 per cent, then you 15 16 w ent to optical; correct? 16 17 A Yes, correct. 17 18 Q So i f y o u don't see anything at .5 p e r cent and 18 19 y ou're u sing ju s t J4, you p ass the talc a n d y o u sell 19 20 it; right? 20 21 A If you follow that process exactly. 21 22 Q Okay. 22 23 A Yes. 23 24 Q A nd the J4 method, the XRD at the beginning, 24 25 the lim it o f detection w as ten tim es poorer than w hat 25 Page 630 Pooley w as telling J& J in '73; right? A B y using his same x-ray diffraction, but by concentrating it, yeah. Q That's right. Okay. All right. This one w ill be Exhibit 131. (E xhibit 131 m arked for identification) W e're going about an hour. Y ou let m e know if you need a break. A ll right, sir. This is a m em o dated M ay 18, 1973. It's by GE H einze and it is to Ashton, Goudie, Rolle, Hildick-Sm ith, Petterson, N ashed and Shelley; correct? A Correct. Q A nd the subject is Talc Symposium, Department o f the Interior. So he went to the sym posium and he took notes by speaker; right? A Yeah. Q Okay. So I ju st w ant to go through some o f the th in g s h e learned. I f y o u tu rn to p ag e 5: "The following speaker was D r W illiam N icholsen, also from M t. Sinai". R ig h t? A That's w hat it says. Page 631 Q N ow , D r Selikoff and D r Langer from M ount Sinai w ere labeled by J& J as -- w hat w as it? A Hostile? Q H ostile? It w asn't hostile. It w as a - w as it hostile personalities? Anyway, it was negative; right? A Negative, yeah. Q Okay. "He again reiterated that asbestos standards should be applied to talc standards. He stated that experience has taught that it takes 30 to 35 years for cancer to appear as a result o f asbestos exposure and he does not see any reason for talc to be different". A nd that 30 to 35 years, that's w hat w e call the "latency period"; right? A That's a - yes, it's a definition. Q Okay. Going on to the next page, it starts on this page; "He indicated that he had seen some data that indicated that fibrous talc exposure is worse than exposure to chrysotile. H e also said that you couldn't say that one form o f asbestos was better or worse than any other form and that fibrous talc should be considered in the sam e cam p as asbestos". 64 (Pages 628 - 631) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 632 Page 634 1 Now , Johnson & Johnson knew that there was a 1 All right, sir. This is from D r Petterson 2 certain percentage o f their talc that w as fibrous; 2 and this is a m em o that you and I have talked about 3 correct? 3 already, but w e hadn't seen it yet. 4 A Y eah, fibrous talc, as w e've defined earlier, 4 This is August 8, 1973, and this is from Dr 5 w hen you look at it under a microscope, it usually 5 Petterson and he says: 6 m eans a plate that's rolled into like a rolled 6 "I am attaching a copy o f our announcem ent 7 newspaper. 7 transferring W Ashton and R Russell to the Baby 8 Q Okay. 8 Products Company. W e think that this is an important 9 "He feels that the present standard o f 5 9 step to utilize our technology and potential 10 fibers per cubic centim eter by optical m icroscopy is a 10 im provem ents in talc, and their subsequent adaptation 11 b are m in im u m ..." 11 to im p ro v ed pow der". 12 N ow , w hat he's talking about there is the 12 N ext highlight: 13 w orkplace standard u nder O S H A ; correct? 13 "W e w ish to do nothing that would im pair our 14 A Yes. 14 success in continuing to protect this franchise". 15 Q "... his thesis being that fo r every fiber seen 15 A nd they're talking about the baby pow der 16 by optical m icroscopy there are 'hundreds' m ore w hich 16 franchise; correct? 17 w ould be seen i f transm ission electron m icroscopy were 17 A Correct. 18 u se d rather th an o p tic a l..." 18 Q Okay. 19 A nd that goes to that principle that, o f 19 D ow n near the bottom: 20 course, Johnson & Johnson w as aware of, that optical 20 "As perhaps you know, our current 21 m icro sco p y is n o t g oing to see the very, v ery sm all 21 expenditures on talc are in excess o f half-a-m illion 22 diam eter-ed fibers; correct? 22 dollars a year. It w ould appear that w e will probably 23 A Yes. 23 expend about the same am ount o f m oney in 1974". 24 Q Okay. 24 N ow , w hat they're talking about right there 25 A That's w hy J& J introduced transm ission electron 25 is the sort o f scientific and research wing, their Page 633 Page 635 1 m icroscopy. 1 budget; right? 2 Q Y es, and we'll talk about that. Y ou've said 2 In other words, that's not the m ining budget? 3 that m any tim es, and w e're going to get to it. 3 A Yeah, yeah. 4 "He stated that on balance the current 4 Q Right. 5 standard is probably not adequate. As far as the use 5 A Yeah. It's an interpretation. 6 o f fibrous talcs in the consum er area was concerned he 6 A ctually, w hen I first read that, I ju st -- 7 felt that they should be labeled with cautionary 7 is that the am ount o f m oney that's actually buying talc 8 statem ents on any consum er goods that can be dispersed 8 from the m ine? H alf a m illion dollars o f bulk talc? I 9 into the air. H e stated that any talc that contains 9 don't know. 10 asbestiform m inerals o r th at w as a fibrous talc should 10 B ut that's another -- that's another 11 have the asbestos standards ap p lied to it an d th at yo u 11 in terpretation o f it. 12 should u se optical m icro sco p y a n d treat all fibers th at 12 Q W ell, at this tim e you guys owned the mine. 13 y o u see as i f th ey w ere asbestos fibers". 13 D id y o u bu y th e --d id y o u b u y it from yourself? 14 M y question is about the w arning statement. 14 A Yes. That's a norm al process. Y o u - y e a h , 15 A gain, th is is ab o u t a little less than 20 y ears before 15 it's c alled "vertical integration" in business. 16 th e w arn in g statem en t first ap p eared on Jo hnson's B aby 16 Q Okay. 17 P ow der; right? 17 A Yeah. 18 A Yes. 18 B ut I don't know w hat that m eans, to be 19 Q Okay. 19 honest. I w ould speculate it could be, as yo u said, it 20 Y ou can set that aside, sir. 20 w as an R& D expenditure, or it could be that the company 21 This w ill be Exhibit 132. 21 w as buying bulk talc to the value o f h a lf a m illion 22 It's tw o pages, sorry. 22 dollars. 23 It's tw o pages. Just hold on. 23 (Reporter clarification) 24 (Exhibit 132 m arked for identification) 24 B ulk talc. 25 Here you go. 25 Q A nd w hen you say "vertical integration", that's 65 (Pages 632 - 635) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 636 Page 638 1 sort o f like W indsor M inerals m ines it, they w ould 1 expertise than I have. 2 "sell" it to Johnson & Johnson; right? 2 A nd those, generally within scientists, 3 A Yes. 3 there's a professional relationship w hich says: we're 4 Q Okay. I understand that. I ju st have never 4 not going to interfere w ith you. D o this. Invoice us. 5 called it "vertical integration", because I'm not an 5 Bill us for the time. Give m e a report. 6 MBA. 6 W e don't have any interference, but w e expect 7 A nd then they attached an announcem ent about 7 a report that's professional, based on your expertise, 8 this; right? 8 w hich is probably better than w hat I've g o t 9 A Yes. 9 Q O kay. All right. 10 Q A nd it says: 10 So this is an Exhibit 133. 11 "I am pleased to announce that W Ashton and 11 (Exhibit 133 m arked for identification) 12 R o bert R u ssell are jo in in g the B ab y Products C om pany 12 This is from Bill Ashton to Caneer at 13 R esearch. T h eir tran sfer from D r S unberg's group is 13 C olorado S chool o f M ines, w ho w e've seen before; right? 14 effective A u g u st 1 5 ,1 9 7 3 ". 14 A Yes. 15 So this was sort o f that consolidation in 15 Q O ctober 10, '73. He says: 16 B ill Ashton; right? 16 "Dear M r Caneer, 17 A Y eah, he w as -- he w as m oving tw o doors dow n 17 This confirm s our telephone conversation and 18 th e corridor. 18 authorizes yo u to provide Johns M anville scientists 19 Q Okay. 19 w ith any help they require w hich has a bearing on 20 A From one m anagem ent to another. 20 clarifying the nature o f talc particles w hich m ay be 21 Q All right. A nd it actually says: 21 m isconstrued to be non-talc particles". 22 "Bill w ill continue as R esearch Associate 22 A Yes. 23 reporting to D r Hutchins and w ill be responsible for 23 Q Right. 24 our long range activities in talc, talc sources and 24 So Ashton at J& J is giving Colorado School o f 25 other m inerals applicable to Baby Powder". 25 M ines perm ission to give information to Johns Manville Page 637 Page 639 1 R ig h t? 1 and w ork with them; right? 2 A Yes. 2 A Yes. 3 Q Okay. 3 Q Okay. 4 Now, Colorado School o f M ines -- this w ill be 4 "I prefer [sic] particularly to ..." 5 Exhibit 133. 5 Oh: 6 (Exhibit 133 m arked for identification) 6 "I refer particularly to that work which we 7 Colorado School o f M ines was a consultant to 7 have developed establishing how rolled up talc flakes 8 J& J, and you have used the term "independent" 8 can be m isconstrued to be serpentine m inerals, the 9 consultants, right, and I guess it's true that Colorado 9 pitfalls in draw ing wrong conclusions in certain x-ray 10 School o f M ines w a sn 't a p a rt o f Jo h n so n & Johnson; 10 data and other analytical inform ation w hich has a 11 right? 11 d irect bearin g on establishing the p u rity and elegance 12 A Correct. 12 o f highgrade talcs such as ou r m aterials". 13 Q But what do you mean when you say 13 D id I read that right? 14 "independent"? 14 A Y ou did. 15 A Okay. There are many, m any different - when 15 Q Okay. 16 you have a com pany, you don't have everything in-house. 16 So Ashton, w ho is now the talc guy at Johnson 17 Y ou d o n 't h a v e all th e ex p ertise o f ev erything you're 17 & Johnson - 18 going to need. 18 A Yes, yeah. 19 So m any - for exam ple, in m y past, I've 19 Q --has given Colorado School o f M ines 20 given our m icrobiological test sam ples to independent 20 perm ission to w ork w ith JM ? 21 m icrobiology labs to say: th ere is a bacteria in this 21 A H e's given perm ission to use data that they'd 22 product, help m e find out w hat it is. Y ou know , is it 22 previously developed for Johnson & Johnson. 23 a problem ? Is it not a problem ? 23 So I think w hat he's saying there is: you've 24 So it's not unusual to give a project to 24 helped Johnson & Johnson in the past to understand what 25 som eone and say: help m e find this. You've got m ore 25 a rolled up talc product looks like and how it can be 66 (Pages 636 - 639) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 640 Page 642 1 se p a ra ted fro m a fib e r th at's n o t talc. W e'v e g iv en 1 classifiable as fiber". 2 y o u p e rm issio n to u se th a t in fo rm atio n th at y o u 'v e 2 Now, w hen --and then it says, o f course: 3 gotten from w orking w ith us. 3 "Occasionally sub-trace quantities o f 4 Q O kay. A ll right. 4 trem olite or actinolite are identifiable (optical 5 W ell, let's lo o k a t th e n e x t m em o reg ard in g 5 m icroscope) and these m ight be classified as asbestos 6 this issue. 6 fiber". 7 So that w as O ctober 9. T he next one, w hich 7 First o f all, did I read that right? 8 w ill be -- w hat exhibit w as that one, 33? 8 A You read w hat was written, yes. 9 A 33. 9 Q Okay. 10 Q O h, I th in k w e're out. 10 A nd then second o f all, he says that the baby 11 C a n I g e t s o m e m o r e s tic k e r s ? L e t's ta k e a 11 po w d er co ntains talc fragm ents classifiable as fib er b y 12 break. 12 the definition that is being proposed by the FD A; 13 (O ff the record at 3:43 pm ) 13 right? 14 (O n the record at 3:58 pm ) 14 A Yes. 15 M R P A N A T I E R : A n d j u s t f o r th e re c o r d , 15 Q Okay. Right. Y ou can set that aside, sir. 16 E xhibits 8 9 ,9 0 and 100 do n o t exist. A ll right. 16 A ll right. T his w ill be Exhibit 134. 17 Q S ir, I k in d o f p u lle d o u t a p a p e r y o u a n d I hac 17 (Exhibit 134 m arked for identification) 18 alread y b een talk in g a b o u t 18 Now, remember w e had talked about in our last 19 A Yeah. 19 docum ent how Johnson & Johnson had authorized - you 20 Q T h a t w a s th e o n e fro m A p ril 2 6 o f '73 th a t 20 know what, I have three, I have all three --Johnson & 21 talk ed ab o u t th e "C lean M ine" approach. 21 Johnson had authorized the Colorado School o f M ines to 22 A Yes. 22 go help Johns M anville with som e talc issues; right? 23 Q D o you recall that? 23 A Yes. 24 A Yes. 24 Q Okay. 25 M S F R O S T : W hat num ber is that, please? 25 So here's a m em o soon after that on Page 641 Page 643 1 T H E W ITNESS: 129. 1 O ctober 2 3 ,1973. It's from A shton to Petterson. It 2 M R P A N A T IE R : 129. 2 says: 3 Q So if you go down to num ber 4 on that page; 3 "Johns M anville has now contacted the 4 okay? 4 Colorado m en but their request is som ewhat different 5 A Yes. 5 than expected. Johns M anville requests information and 6 Q It says: 6 assistance in the concentrating o f asbestos m inerals 7 "The problem then is two fold, one for 7 from talc systems". 8 W indsor and one for Baby Powder". 8 Now, w e know that J& J has been dealing with 9 So let's go dow n to B for the baby powder; 9 this issue o f concentrating talcs to look for 10 okay? It's on the next page. 10 trem olite; right? 11 W e w ent through som e o f this, but I didn't 11 A It could be, or it could infer the flotation 12 get th ro u g h all o f it. 12 process. 13 It says: 13 Q A ll right. 14 "As for B aby Powder, the entire thrust o f our 14 W ell, w e certainly know that - well, I think 15 com m unications w ith the F D A h as concentrated on 15 i f y o u read o n - 16 asbestos as a harm ful fiber-like m aterial". 16 A Yeah. 17 Then if you go down, it says, starting with, 17 Q - it says: 18 " If': 18 "This w ill cause our friend at Golden to look 19 "If the FDA Food Division, w hich is m oving 19 deeply into the use o f heavy liquids, density gradient 20 m ore rapidly than the Cosm etic Division, establishes a 20 separation, and iodine staining techniques". 21 standard, it w ill probably be to ban asbestos-form or 21 That's all w hat Pooley is doing, too; 22 fibrous m aterial in talc. That could elim inate the 22 correct? 23 current uses o f talc in packaging m aterials. These 23 A Yes. 24 talcs contain widely varying amounts o f trem olite or 24 Q Right, because he's using the heavy liquids to 25 fibrous talc. Our Baby Pow der contains talc fragm ents 25 centrifuge out - 67 (Pages 640 - 643) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 644 Page 646 1 A Yeah. 1 there will be no conflicting aspects o f interest". 2 Q --som e o f the talc and be able to concentrate 2 In other words, Ashton wants to preview w hat 3 it to low er the level o f sensitivity; right? 3 research Caneer is being asked to do; correct? 4 A Yes. 4 A W hat he's asking is he w anted to ensure that 5 Q A nd now w hat they're learning is that JM is 5 Colorado School o f M ines don't have any conflict o f 6 asking Colorado to do som ething similar; correct? 6 interest, having already told Colorado School o f Mines 7 A Yes, yes. 7 they can share inform ation from Johnson & Johnson. 8 Q Okay. 8 Q A nd now they're kind o f having second thoughts? 9 "Such a m ethod could be expected to elicit 9 A B ecause he's w ondering w hat kind o f inform ation 10 sub-trace quantities o f associate m inerals not 10 they're going to share. 11 p resen tly kn o w n to exist in m any talc system s. 11 Q Right. 12 I told M r C aneer, (... [Colorado School o f 12 A Because his original support for Colorado 13 M ines]) to a sk Jo h n [sic] M anville for a w ritten list 13 S chool o f M ines w as to help identify talc fibers or 14 o f problem s they w ish him to investigate to m ake sure 14 fibrous talc or rolled talc. 15 there w ill b e no conflicting aspects o f interest". 15 So that w as the original agreement. 16 D id I read that right? 16 So he's saying, if you're talking about 17 A Y ou read w hat w as written, yes. 17 anything else, tell m e about it. O therw ise, it's a 18 Q So, basically, the fram ework is J& J has had 18 conflict o f interest. 19 P o o ley lo o k in g a t a co n centrating technique a n d they 19 Q W ell, it's a conflict w ith w hat J& J is doing, 20 criticized it for being too sensitive because it saw 20 right, because J& J understands that, if you concentrate 21 trem olite in V erm ont talc; correct? 21 the talc dow n, y o u get a higher level o f sensitivity 22 A T hey criticized it because it was possibly 22 for certain m inerals that other folks m ay not 23 sensitive, but you could achieve the sam e sensitivity 23 understand are there; correct? 24 using scanning electron m icroscopy. 24 A Yes. 25 Q I didn't ask you about that. 25 Q Okay. Page 645 Page 647 1 A T hey criticized it. 1 A The w ord "m ay" - m ay exist; "not presently 2 Q Consider the question I'm asking, w hich is 2 know n to exist". 3 Johnson & Johnson criticized Pooley's m ethod for being 3 Little bit o f hypothetical there. 4 -- their words -- "too sensitive"? 4 Q W ell, o f course, it's not a hypothesis for 5 A Coned. 5 J& J's talc because Pooley did do this m ethod on theirs 6 Q Right? Okay. 6 and did see trem olite; correct? 7 A nd now JM and Colorado School o f M ines are 7 A He saw trem olite, yes. 8 looking at doing a concentrating technique sim ilar to 8 Q Right. 9 Pooley's on som e talc sam ples that they have; right? 9 A Yeah. 10 A That's apparently the case, yes. 10 Q A nd so he's saying he w ants --basically, he 11 Q A nd w hat A shton says is: 11 w ants to b e able to p rev iew w h a t research Johns 12 "Such a m ethod could be expected to elicit 12 M anville w ants to do w ith C aneer to m ake sure that 13 sub-trace q u an tities o f associate m inerals not 13 there's no conflicting aspects o f interest; right? 14 presently know n to exist in m any talc system s". 14 A Yes. 15 W hat he's saying is if they do a 15 I think w hat he's --m y view is w hat he's 16 concentration technique, they m ay see som e stu ff that 16 asking there is to say i f J& J has given Johns M anville 17 m o st peo p le d o n 't kn o w is there; correct? 17 approval to share inform ation, that approval related to 18 A H e said "could be expected". 18 the original project, w hich w as detection o f fibrous 19 Q Right. 19 talc or fibers. 20 A Yes. 20 A nd, you know , if you're going to say 21 Q C ould be expected. 21 anything else, let us know because there m ay be a 22 A nd he said: 22 conflict o f interest. 23 "I to ld C a n e e r ... [at C olorado School o f 23 Q Y eah, but specifically w hat they're concerned 24 M ines] to a s k ... M anville for a w ritten list o f 24 is that the m ethod that Johns M anville is looking at 25 problem s they w ish him to investigate to m ake sure 25 having done by Colorado could be expected to elicit 68 (Pages 644 - 647) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 648 Page 650 1 sub-trace quantities o f associate m inerals not 1 didn't go further than that. 2 presently know n to exist in m any talc systems; right? 2 Q Right. 3 A Yes. It's a hypothesis. T hey m ay not exist. 3 Colorado School o f M ines never did it for JM, 4 Q Right. 4 did they? 5 A nd w e're talking about they don't w ant -- 5 A I don't know . Y ou'd have to look at JM 's 6 they don't w ant Colorado School o f M ines to do this 6 documentation. 7 technique on JM 's talc, do they? 7 Q W ell, you certainly don't have anything inside 8 A That's not w hat it says. 8 Johnson & Johnson reflecting the Colorado School of 9 It says: if you're going to do it, that's 9 M ines actually w ent through with it with JM ; correct? 10 fine. I think that's fine. G o ahead and do it. B ut 10 A No, but there again, w ould you expect it? I 11 let us k n o w in case there's a con flict o f interest. 11 w o u ld not. 12 Y ou can't stop Colorado School o f M ines doing 12 I f Johns M anville com m issioned som e w ork, it 13 a study. 13 w ould n o t necessarily g e t back to J& J. It w o u ld be 14 Q Okay. Sure. 14 som ething that Johns M anville w ould do. 15 Y ou can set that aside. 15 Q Okay. That's all --that's all pure 16 This w ill be Exhibit 135. 16 speculation? 17 (Exhibit 135 m arked for identification) 17 A Absolutely, yes. 18 So this is from W illiam Ashton following up 18 But, you know, Johns M anville was a m ajor 19 on w h at w e ju s t lo o k ed at, an d W illiam A sh to n says here 19 corporation. T h ey w o u ld be responsible for w h a t th ey 20 on N ovem ber 26, '73, to six different people: 20 w ere doing and they w ouldn't need to knock on J& J's 21 "The attached confirm s m y earlier report that 21 door and say: can w e do this? 22 Johns M anville was about to look into concentrating 22 Q Sir, you have the answ er -- you have the answer 23 an iodine staining o f chrysotile from a talc system. 23 in front o f you, w hich is M r Ashton reports they were 24 It also docum ents JM backing o ff from their 24 about to do this, m eaning it didn't happen with 25 allegation that one o f our talc sources contained 25 Colorado School o f M ines? Page 649 Page 651 1 chrysotile". 1 A A t that the date, 29 October, yes. 2 R ig h t? 2 Q M aybe some tim e in the future it happens. We 3 A That's w hat it says. 3 do not know; right? 4 Q Okay. 4 A W e don't. 5 So he's saying that they w ere about to look 5 Q Right. Y ou can set that aside. 6 into this concentrating technique; right? 6 This next one is 136. 7 A Yes. 7 (Exhibit 136 m arked for identification) 8 Q A nd they "were about to" m eans they ended up 8 A ll right. This is from Nashed to M ullen. 9 not doing it? 9 It's very short: 10 A Y es, but that w ould have been their choice. 10 "The proposal w ill have no impact on our talc 11 Q Okay. 11 since the m eth o d o f analysis in the proposal w ill show 12 A It's n ot som ething J& J could have told Johns 12 that our talc is acceptable". 13 M anville, a m ajo r corporation, th at y o u can 't do this. 13 And ju st FYI w e can probably look at some 14 It w ould have been Johns M anville's personal 14 surrounding docum ents, they're talking about the FDA's 15 choice. 15 p ro posed m ethod, b u t I'll ju s t p u t th at o u t there for 16 Q B ut it clearly w asn't Colorado School o f M ines' 16 you and then w e can verify. 17 personal choice, b ecause J& J clearly h a d control over 17 A Okay. Sure. 18 them ; right? 18 Q "However, if they change the method, we may 19 A No, they did not. 19 have problem s." 20 W hat they --the relationship w ith Colorado 20 Now, what about the proposed FDA m ethod would 21 School o f M ines w as th at J& J gave th em approval to 21 cause them to have problem s, i f they changed it? 22 share inform ation as to how you m ight identify fibrous 22 A Again, hypothetical question. 23 talc or talc in the fibrous form if they were talking 23 They've obviously com e up w ith a proposal, 24 to Johns M anville. 24 FD A proposal, w hich clearly show s that the J& J talc is 25 A nd that was the end o f that approval. It 25 quite acceptable. 69 (Pages 648 - 651) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 652 Page 654 1 Y ou know, if they came up w ith a totally 1 Industry. 2 different method, we may, we m ay not have problems. 2 Do you see that? 3 Q Right. 3 A Ido,yes. 4 A Again, hypothetical. It's speculative. 4 Q From N ashed to W hitlock, cc'ing the President, 5 Q Right. 5 Johnston, Petterson and the w hole gang; right? 6 So like, if w e go back -- 6 A Yes. 7 A This is - sorry, I'm going to say, ju st to 7 Q Okay. 8 finish the sentence, this is the kind o f thing that 8 Now, there are tw o drafts here o f a statement 9 scientists say. 9 called Asbestos in Talc; right? 10 They often talk in terms o f ifs and maybes 10 A Yes. 11 a n d w h a t ifs. 11 Q And we know what this is because it says this 12 A nd so w e m ay have problem s. It's a 12 on the K ennedy hearings page. It says: 13 hypothetical. 13 "As requested in your Novem ber 7 letter 14 Q A problem is not a good thing. A problem is a 14 addressed to M r D Johnston, w e are attaching a b rief 15 b a d thing? 15 po sitio n p ap er o n 'A sbestos in Talc'. 16 A Yeah. 16 I hope it m eets with your approval". 17 Q Right. Okay. 17 R ig h t? 18 A nd it actually does say at the bottom this 18 A Yes. 19 is in reply to M ullen's q u estion regarding the 19 Q Okay. 20 regulations proposed by FDA; right? 20 W e have one that is called Version One; do 21 A Yes. 21 y ou see that? 22 Q So w e know that's w hat they're talking about; 22 A Yes. 23 okay? 23 Q It says "Draft". 24 A Yes. 24 T hen w e have another one that doesn't say 25 Q I f m y goal is to prevent people from knowing I 25 draft on it? Page 653 Page 655 1 have bacteria on m y skin, right, I can - 1 can say: I 1 A Yes. 2 have looked at it through a scientific technique and 2 Q Okay. 3 there is no bacteria on m y skin. 3 A nd the one that says draft, okay, it says in 4 Now, if som eone requires m e to use m ore than 4 the second paragraph: 5 a m agnifying glass, I m ay have problem s if m y goal is 5 "The selection process begins with choosing a 6 to keep it out o f the public knowledge that I have 6 m ine site that provides a choice grade o f talc that is 7 bacteria on m y skin; right? 7 free o f asbestos fibers". 8 A E x cep t th at y o u w o u ld n 't have u se d a m agnifying 8 R ig h t? 9 glass in the first place. 9 A Yes. Yes. 10 Q W ell, if I'd wanted to conceal it, I w ould use 10 Q In the final version, it says: 11 a m agnifying glass, and say: I've done a test. 11 "The selection process begins with choosing a 12 Right? Okay? 12 m ine site that provides a choice grade o f high purity 13 A Y eah, but no scientist w ould accept that test. 13 talc". 14 Q N o, o f course not. 14 R ig h t? 15 A No. 15 A Yes. 16 Q In fact, science requires that if you are going 16 Q So they deleted the part that said the 17 to look fo r som ething an d y o u n eed a certain level o f 17 selection process begins w ith choosing a m ine site 18 sensitivity to do it, y o u sh o u ld use the appropriate 18 "that is free o f asbestos fibers". 19 sensitivity; right? 19 They no longer said that; right? 20 A Y es, and that's called "validation". 20 A Yes. They'd already used the w ord "asbestos 21 Q Right. Okay. 21 fibers" three lines higher up. 22 This will be Exhibit 137. 22 Q W e ll-w e ll, kind of. 23 (Exhibit 137 m arked for identification) 23 A Yes. 24 A ll right, sir. This is Decem ber 3,1973. 24 Q Because w hat they say above is they say: 25 The subject is K ennedy Hearings on Pharm aceutical 25 "The talc used to m ake Johnson & Johnson 70 (Pages 652 - 655) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 656 Page 658 1 powders is free o f hazardous asbestos fibers". 1 It says D ecem ber 3,1973, Corporate W orldwide 2 R ig h t? 2 Talc Inform ation & Com m unication. It's by G Lee to 3 A Yes. 3 Fuller. 4 Q B ut then they're justifying w hy in the 4 A Yeah. 5 subsequent paragraphs; right? 5 Q "D uring Bob D ean's visit last month, the 6 A Yeah, yeah. 6 thought was expressed that it m ight be tim ely to remind 7 Q A nd in the draft they said, well, the first 7 our foreign affiliates o f M r Clare's original directive 8 step is choosing a m ine that's free o f asbestos fibers; 8 several years ago requiring all talc and powder 9 right? 9 inquiries to be directed to N ew Brunswick". 10 A Yes. 10 Clare is the President; right? 11 Q A nd they deleted that. T hey no longer 11 A Yes. 12 rep resen ted th at th ey w ere ch oosing a m ine th at w as 12 Q "It was general opinion that D r W Nashed was 13 free o f asbestos fibers, d o they? 13 the b e st individual to co-ordinate receip t o f and rep ly 14 A N o. They've used a phraseology which, you 14 to all scientific and regulatory inquiries. This 15 kno w , I w o u ld term "consum er sp eak "; 15 procedure w o uld then expedite and insure im m ediate 16 "... a choice grade o f high purity talc". 16 response". 17 It uses m ore consum er understood words. 17 R ig h t? 18 Q Okay. 18 A Yes. 19 A Yeah. 19 Q Okay. 20 Q It ju st so happens that saying it's free o f 20 So really the two chief kind o f centralized 21 asbestos fibers is less consum er friendly than "high 21 players are, you have N ashed, w ho handles receiving and 22 purity talc"? 22 replying to the responses, and then you've got Ashton, 23 A W ell, you've already said "free o f asbestos 23 w ho's sort o f heading up all o f the talc and asbestos 24 fibers" three lines higher. So I don't think they're 24 issues? 25 hiding anything there. 25 A The technical issues. Page 657 Page 659 1 Q W ell, sir, again, you're changing w hat they 1 Q The technical issues; right? 2 were talking about. 2 A Yes. 3 A t the very beginning, they're talking about 3 Q Okay. 4 the product; right? 4 N ow , the C T FA in the early '70s advocated to 5 A Yes. 5 the FD A that they not pass their regulation on asbestos 6 Q A nd then they're talking about the m ine? 6 and talc; correct? 7 A Yes. 7 A Y o u 'd need to sh o w m e th at -- 8 Q A nd they're saying w e start w ith the m ine, and 8 Q Sure thing. 9 in the draft it says the m ining site is asbestos free, 9 A --particular article. 10 and in th e final, th ey d o n 't say it's asbestos free; 10 Q Sure. 11 right? 11 This w ill be Exhibit 139. 12 A No. 12 (Exhibit 139 m arked for identification) 13 T hey said it's high purity talc. 13 Sir, can you see that this is a document from 14 Q I understand. All right. 14 the C T FA , w hich w as the trade organization that Johnson 15 Y ou can set that aside, sir. 15 & Jo h n so n w as a m em ber of; correct? 16 W ith regard to the talc and asbestos issue, 16 A Yes. 17 everything, a t lea st in the '70s a n d '80s, w e n t through 17 Q To Food and Drug Administration, D epartm ent o f 18 N ew B runsw ick, right, w o rldw ide; correct? 18 H ealth E d u catio n a n d W elfare; right? 19 A Pretty well, yes. 19 A Yes, yes. 20 Q Okay. 20 Q N ow , w e had a little talk about this earlier. 21 N ew Brunswick is the headquarters? 21 The FDA is part o f the Departm ent o f Health 22 A Yes, yes. 22 Education and W elfare. 23 Q I think w e have a docum ent that speaks to that. 23 A Yes. 24 T his w ill be Exhibit 138. 24 Q It's not separate; right? 25 (Exhibit 138 m arked for identification) 25 A Yeah. 71 (Pages 656 - 659) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 660 Page 662 1 Q It is a division? 1 A Correct. 2 A It's a division, yes. A separate division, 2 Q In term s o f speaking about lots, what w as a lot 3 yes. 3 o f talc from J& J's understanding? H ow m uch was that? 4 Q Okay. 4 A It w ould be several tons. 5 N ow , i f you w ill turn to the page at --it's 5 Q W hen I hear about it, typically, I've heard 6 the very last page, and it's sort o f oddly organized. 6 about a rail car being one lot, and typically that 7 I don't know how they chose to organize this letter, 7 could be 20 to 100 tons? 8 but you can see that they have, on the second page, 8 A Yeah. 9 just so w e can orient ourselves, Estrin starts a list 9 Q Does that sort o f wax(?) with your 10 that goes 1 through 4, and then you can see 5 is on the 10 understanding? 11 v e ry last page. 11 A There m ay be m ore than one sample taken from a 12 A Can you use the Bates number? 12 rail car. 13 Q Yeah. Go to 8245. 13 Q Okay. 14 There you go. 14 A I'm pretty sure there w ould be. 15 A Yeah. 15 Q B ut w hat they're saying is, you know, 16 Q So the letter sort o f continues there. 16 evaluating the validity o f taking a 1 m illigram sam ple, 17 They have some data in the m iddle o f the 17 w hich one thousandth o f a gram , from an entire lot; 18 letter. 18 right? 19 A Okay. 19 A Yes. 20 Q Okay. 20 Q And, o f course, as a scientist, sir, you 21 B ut Estrin, o f course -- this is from Estrin. 21 understand that, i f you're going to take a 1 m illigram , 22 H e's the V P o f Science for the CTFA? 22 a tiny sam ple o f a larger whole, it needs to be 23 A Yes. 23 representative o f the whole; is that fair? 24 Q A nd he cc's the CTFA Talc Subcom m ittee and the 24 A It does, yes. 25 Scientific Advisory Com m ittee; right? 25 Q Okay. Page 661 Page 663 1 A H e does. 1 M eaning that the w hole has to be a homogenous 2 Q Okay. 2 sample; correct? 3 B ut let's ju st go to this part, in the m iddle 3 A Correct, yes. 4 o f that page: 4 Q They say that: 5 "The CTFA urges deferm ent o f prom ulgation o f 5 "A re-evaluation o f the econom ic cost and 6 the proposal u n t i l ..." 6 practicality o f the proposed Compliance Test M ethods 7 Okay. Now, urging deferm ent is asking that 7 has to be done". 8 som ething not be passed right now; right? 8 R ig h t? 9 A Yes. 9 A Yes. 10 Q Okay. 10 Q And: 11 A nd they say it shouldn't be passed until 11 "An intensive search is undertaken for an 12 there is a: 12 alternate procedure that is m ore reliable and m ore 13 "Determination o f the standard deviation o f 13 p ractical th an the p ro p o se d test m ethods". 14 the proposed com pliance test method". 14 A nd that m eans they had actually done - the 15 This would be the proposed FD A test method; 15 C T FA h ad done som e round robins testing on different 16 right? 16 talcs using the FD A 's proposed m ethod; right? 17 A Yes. 17 A Yes. 18 Q "Evaluation o f the validity o f the assum ption 18 Q A nd they had w ildly varying results; true? 19 th at a single m illig ram sam ple can b e tak en as 19 A T hey did, and that's not unusual. 20 statistically representative o f any lot as well as the 20 Q No. 21 lim it size o f any lot so sam pled." 21 A W hen a new test method is proposed, different 22 A n d w h a t th at m ean s i f y o u 're only going to 22 companies do the test and see how well it works. 23 take a m illigram sam ple o f a lot, and a lot refers to 23 It's called "validation". 24 a unit, usually a shipm ent unit that a company uses; 24 Q M mmhmm. 25 right? 25 So, anyway, so the CTFA here in 1973 is 72 (Pages 660 - 663) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 664 Page 666 1 telling the FDA: look, you should not pass these 1 in ways which can create doubts on talc efficacy and 2 relations now; right? 2 raise unfounded questions on talc safety". 3 A Yes. 3 So they're considering about --they're 4 Q Okay. 4 concerned about some research going on overseas; right? 5 Now, you can set that aside. 5 A Yes. 6 D id the FD A ever pass a regulation for the 6 Q "Such findings w ill cause new apprehension in 7 m easurem ent o f asbestos in talc? 7 the high grade talc market and may have an adverse 8 A M y understanding is no. 8 effect on our business". 9 Q Okay. 9 Fair? 10 This w ill be Exhibit 140. 10 A That's w hat it states. 11 (Exhibit 140 m arked for identification) 11 Q Lastly: 12 The entire industry currently is 12 "Increased pressure from consum er advocates 13 self-regulated; correct? 13 can require such h ig h expenditures fo r technical 14 A Correct. 14 support needed to com prom ise them , that our profits can 15 Q A nd it's been self-regulated for ever? 15 ap p roach seriously d im inishing returns". 16 A Pretty well, yes. 16 D id I read that right? 17 Q 140. A ll right. 17 A You read w hat w as written. 18 N ow , this docum ent provided to us doesn't 18 Q Now , a consum er advocate is someone who 19 have a date on it, b ut I think w e can look at it and 19 advocates for consum ers; right? 20 say probably earliest '60s, probably in the '70s, based 20 A Yes. 21 on w h at o u r oth er docum ents hav e lo o k ed like? 21 Q And, in fact, the name o f Johnson & Johnson, 22 A P ro b a b ly '70s, yeah. 22 the nam e o f the company is Johnson & Johnson Consum er 23 Q Okay. A ll right. 23 Products Com pany; right? 24 A gain, it's n ot superunportant for placing 24 A T hat's the cu rren t nam e, yes. 25 this one. This is m ore on the corporate policy issues. 25 Q The current name. Okay. Page 665 Page 667 1 B ut the heading is Talc Alternatives; right? 1 Johnson & Johnson makes products for 2 A Yes. 2 consum ers; right? 3 Q And it says Background: 3 A Correct. 4 "There are several reasons requiring an 4 Q A nd consum er advocates are people who advocate 5 increase in research for an acceptable alternative to 5 for them or stick up for their rights; right? 6 talc in our body dusting powders. Those reasons are 6 A Yeah. People like R alph Nader, and whatever, 7 related to the increasing likelihood that the following 7 w ho w as going back in the '60s, '70s, yes. 8 events w ill occur". 8 Q Yeah, yeah. 9 A nd num ber 1 is: 9 Ralph N ader did good things; right? He 10 "Federal regulations m ay drastically lim it 10 helped us get rid o f the Pinto? 11 th e use o f talc". 11 A Yeah, and Ford love him. 12 A nd w e've seen that kind o f discussion in our 12 Q Right. I'm sure Ford loves him; right? 13 early '70s docum ents; right? 13 A Yes. 14 A Yes. 14 Q B ut w hat it says here is pressure from consum er 15 Q Okay. 15 advocates can req u ire Johnson & Johnson to spend such 16 "Tentative regulations under discussion by 16 high - spend so m uch m oney; right? 17 som e ag encies involve n o t only tig h t o r im practical 17 That's w hat it means: 18 specifications on talc purity, b u t lim itations on talc 18 "... can require such high ex p en d itu res..." 19 dust exposure and talc inhalation levels w hich m ay be 19 R ig h t? 20 impossible to m eet at industrial levels". 20 A Yes. 21 R ig h t? 21 Q Spending money: 22 A Yes. 22 "... for technical support needed to 23 Q 2: 24 "Some overseas scientific investigators are 23 com prom ise th e m ..." 24 Now , com prom ising consum er advocates. 25 now know n to be studying biological responses to talc 25 W hat does "compromise" mean, sir? 73 (Pages 664 - 667) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 668 Page 670 1 A L et's read that again: 1 A Yes. 2 "Increased pressure from consum er advocates 2 Q A nd he says: 3 can require such high expenditures for technical 3 "Today I talked --I called D r John Stuart, 4 su p p o rt n e ed e d to com prom ise th em ..." 4 scientist from the Cosm etics D ivision o f FD A ..." 5 Gee, that's bad gram m ar. I don't know. 5 A nd w e've seen his nam e a few tim es now. 6 Q "... th a t o u r pro fit --" 6 A Yes, we have, yeah. 7 A I think w hat he's saying is that w e'd end up 7 Q H e's the one that did the analysis for the 8 spending so m uch m oney that it w ould affect profits. 8 Show er to Show er o f the Lew in sample; right? 9 Q Right. 9 A H e did, yes. 10 A I think that's basically w hat they're saying. 10 Q W here they found 107 fibers o f trem olite per 11 Q H e's saying -- 11 m icrogram in Johnson & Johnson; correct? 12 A The gram m ar is terrible. 12 A O n --on that --yes, he claimed to have found 13 Q Yeah. 13 that, yes. 14 H e's saying: w e need to spend m oney on 14 Q Okay. 15 technical sup p o rt in order to com prom ise consum er 15 H ere's w hat he says about the Lew in samples: 16 advocates, and our profits can approach seriously 16 "Dr Stuart felt that a m eeting would be o f 17 d im inishing returns b ecause o f that; correct? 17 little value because he had been asked to devote all 18 A Yes. 18 his tim e to utilizing the FD A optical m icroscopy m ethod 19 Q Okay. 19 for exam ining the com m ercial talcum pow ders previously 20 A Yes. T hat is really bad gramm ar. The w ord 20 analyzed by D r Lewin". 21 "com prom ise" is -- 21 A nd you're aw are, sire, that that w as a 22 Q Yeah. 22 pretty long project that the FDA w ent into w here they 23 A --you know , you w ould --it ju st doesn't m ake 23 actually w ent and looked at all o f D r Lew in's samples; 24 sense. 24 right? 25 Q Y eah, I'm not so concerned about the gramm ar. 25 A They did, yes. Page 669 1 A Yeah. 1 2 Q I'm sort o f concerned the point. 2 3 A Yeah. 3 4 Q The point is Johnson & Johnson is saying: look, 4 5 our profits are approaching diminishing returns because 5 6 we have to spend so much money to compromise consumer 6 7 advocates; right? 7 8 A That's what it reads. 8 9 Q What was the budget for the compromising of 9 10 consumer advocates at Johnson & Johnson? 10 11 A 1have no idea. 11 12 Q All rig h t You can set that aside. 12 13 Any time I just throw it in that pile is a 13 14 good sign. 14 15 Exhibit 141. 15 16 (Exhibit 141 marked for identification) 16 17 This is a memo from John P Schelz --am I 17 : 18 saying that right? 18 19 A Yeah, I believe so. I've never heard that name 19 i20 spoken and I've never met the guy. 20 21 Q Okay. 21 22 He writes it to Dr Rolle and he cc's 22 23 everybody. 23 24 A Yeah. 24 25 Q Ashton, Fully, Goudie, all o f them. 25 Page 671 Q Okay. "He stated that his w ork thus far has concurred w ith D r Lew in's results except that he has not detected chrysotile in any sam ple". R ig h t? A Yes. Q So w hat you know about D r Lew in's results is that he found trem olite in a num ber o f samples and he found chrysotile, according to him; right? A H e claim ed to have found chrysotile. Q A nd w hat the FD A is saying is they're saying: we're not seeing the chrysotile, b ut the rest we're confirming; right? A That's w hat they said at that tim e, yes. Q A nd one o f those confirmations, o f course, w ould have been Sam ple 84, w hich w as J& J Show er to Shower; right? A Yes. Q Because Lew in found trem olite in it and so did the FDA; true? A Yes. Q Okay. Y ou can set that aside, sir. M R GAFFREY: W hat was the date o f that? T H E W ITN ESS: It's M arch 13,1974. M R GAFFREY: Thank you. 74 (Pages 668 - 671) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 672 Page 674 1 BY M R PANATIER: 1 "The n-butanol citric acid w ill only be 2 Q This w ill be Exhibit 142. 2 resorted to in the future event o f need for greater 3 (Exhibit 142 m arked for identification) 3 suppression o f asbestiforms"? 4 A ll right. N ow , this is June 20, '74, and in 4 A It does state that, yes. 5 1974, ju st so w e can place ourselves, this w as a little 5 Q Right? 6 bit later in the year after they were studying the 6 A Yes. 7 chrysotile suppression system in the flotation with 7 Q So if one o f these groups, National Cancer 8 n-butanol and the citric acid addition. 8 Institute, FDA, NIOSH, a regulatory group, asked them, 9 Do you recall that? 9 "W hy did you m ove to citric acid?" Right, the 10 A Ido,yes. 10 n-butanol citric acid system ? T hey w ould have to 11 Q Okay. 11 an sw er w ell, "W e d id it to -- fo r m ore greater 12 So that just kind o f puts us in the 12 suppression o f asbestiform s". 13 fram ew ork, and th is is fro m G L ee to P etterson, and it 13 Right? 14 says S tatus - N e w F lotation M ethods. 14 A T hat's a theoretical answ er, yeah. 15 It says: 15 Q W ell, I'm giving a - I'm giving a reason for 16 "This will serve to docum ent the status o f 16 w hy they say: 17 th e raw talc evaluation program , d irected tow ards 17 "... w e should o f necessity avoid changes to 18 q u alify in g th e n-butanol flotation pro cess for use in 18 th e p ro d u ct w hich w o u ld increase o u r vu ln erab ility to 19 Jo h n so n 's B a b y Pow der. It should b e n o ted th at W indsor 19 criticism o r suspicion". 20 M inerals has restated its interest in converting to the 20 Can you think o f any other reason w hy they 21 n -b u tan o l sy stem only. T h e n -butanol/citric acid w ill 21 w ouldn't do it and w hy they're concerned about 22 only be resorted to in the future event o f need for 22 suspicion? B eing vulnerable to criticism or suspicion, 23 greater suppression o f asbestiform s". 23 as you sit here? 24 Right? So remember from the tests that were 24 A No, I cannot. 25 done, n-butanol reduced them a little bit. N-butanol 25 Q Okay. Page 673 Page 675 1 w ith citric acid reduced them a lot m ore. Remember? 1 A B ut it's a hypothesis. 2 A In that particular test, yes. 2 It could well have been that if they use the 3 Q Yeah. 3 n-butanol citric acid system , it could well have 4 Turn the page: 4 changed the feel o f the talc in the way it was 5 "Due to continuing and even growing attention 5 presented to the consumer. 6 shown by scientific and regulatory groups to 6 Again, hypothesis. 7 particulate size, shape and respirable particles, (e.g. 7 Q Okay. 143. 8 S ta n to n ... [w ith the N ational C an cer Institute], F D A 8 (Exhibit 143 m arked for identification) 9 Lovelace A erosol Study, [and] N IO SH) w e should o f 9 A nd you can see the cover here is from 10 n ecessity a v o id changes to the p ro d u ct w h ich w o u ld 10 Petterson, and he says: 11 in crease o u r vu ln erab ility to criticism o r suspicion". 11 "Attached are the questions and answers which 12 D id I read that right? 12 I taped at the A nti-Perspirant P anel m eeting in 13 A You read w hat was written, yes. 13 W ashington". 14 Q Now , it says in the very first part that 14 R ig h t? 15 W indsor M inerals w an ted to m ove to the n-butanol systen i l 5 A Yes. 16 only, n o t the n-butanol citric acid system ; right? 16 Q So apparently he's had them transcribed; right? 17 A It does state that, yes. 17 A Yes. 18 Q A nd if they w ent to the n-butanol citric acid 18 Q Okay. 19 system , the reaso n th ey w o u ld have to give fo r stating 19 A nd it says: 20 w hy they w ent to it was to increase the ability o f it 20 "Questions from the OTC Panel Presentation o f 21 to so rt o f c atch and parse o ut asbestiform s; right? 21 July 9th". 22 A I don't see that written. 22 Now , "OTC" means over the counter; right? 23 Can you --did you see that written? 23 A It does. 24 Q Yeah. I m ean, it's w ritten right here in the 24 Q Okay. 25 first paragraph: 25 Y ou can see Pooley's there; right? 75 (Pages 672 - 675) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 676 Page 678 1 A Yeah. 1 A Yes. 2 Q A nd he states here --these are just different 2 Q Chemical analysis; right? 3 questions and answers, right, and Pooley dow n at the 3 A Yes. 4 bottom says: 4 Q A nd so on; correct? 5 "I w ould say that the finished product does 5 A Yes. 6 reflect the ore body, although it does seem to reflect 6 Q Okay. 7 only one sam ple at only one point in time". 7 D r M iller: 8 R ig h t? 8 "One further point, where all the analyses 9 So if you have a finished product; right? 9 that were shown in the first table w hich listed many, 10 A Yes. 10 m any s o u rc e s ..." 11 Q It w ill reflect w hat was in the ore body at the 11 I think it's not saying "w here"; it's saying 12 tim e th at th a t pro d u ct w as m ade? 12 "were": 13 A Yes. 13 "... w ere all o f these by electron 14 Q B ut it really doesn't tell you a lot about w hat 14 m icroscopy?" 15 cam e b efo re it or after; right? 15 Pooley: 16 A No. 16 "Oh, no, these analyses were obtained by 17 Q Okay. 17 x-ray diffraction, therm o gravom etric analysis, 18 Go to page 2. So D r M iller starts talking 18 differential therm al analysis, optical m icroscopy, and 19 and he says: 19 things such as carbon dioxide w ere done by w et chem ical 20 "I w o uld venture to say, th at from the 20 analysis". 21 standpoint o f the consum er advocate o r the consum er 21 A nd M iller says: 22 them selves, they w ould have very little knowledge o f 22 "W ould you say that those m ethods would leave 23 w here these talcs come from or where these fibrous 23 something to be desired as a control characterization 24 products com e from. A nd that one o f the interesting 25 potentials, that if one were interested in the 24 o f the talc for their m ineral content?" 25 Pooley: Page 677 Page 679 1 potential ill effects o f these materials, it w ould be 1 "W ell they have their lim its o f application". 2 m uch m ore direct to look at the products just before 2 A nd that's true o f all o f those m ethods that 3 they reach the consumer". 3 w e've been talking about; right? 4 O kay? A s opposed to in the mine; right? 4 A Yes, yeah. 5 A Yes. 5 Q Let's go to page 4, and these -- you can see 6 Q Okay. 6 these are questions at the end o f D r Rolle's 7 "Also, Fred, as far as your characterization, 7 presentation, and M iller is talking. 8 everyone recognizes that many o f the methods used, that 8 Let's see. I've got several highlights. I 9 is up until very recently, let's say diffraction, phase 9 don't know that we need to go into all o f them. 10 contrast, lig h t m icroscopy, chem ical analysis, an d so 10 W e can skip that. L et's go to page 5. 11 on, a re v e ry inadequate to p ro p e rly ch aracterize the 11 So this fellow nam ed D r Shupline, he says: 12 m inerals th at go into talc". 12 "Apparently, a lim it has been set som ewhere 13 Right, and Pooley says: 13 th at th is is safe. I m ean the h a lf p e r cen t am phibole 14 "D r Rolle is going to talk about that". 14 asbestos". 15 R ig h t? 15 Now , half a per cent is the detection limit 16 A Yes. 16 for X R D under CTFA ; right? 17 Q Okay. 17 A Yes. 18 B ut what M iller is saying here is, and he 18 Q A nd D r R olle, w ho's w ith Johnson & Johnson, he 19 identifies several d ifferent types o f analysis th at you 19 stands up and he says: 20 and I have talked a lot about? 20 "That is not true. The problem is that this 21 A Yes. 21 is a lim it o f detection o f the instrum ent". 22 Q A nd says that they are inadequate. Very 22 D r Shupline: 23 inadequate. 23 "D idn't the, w asn't there a U nited States 24 H e says phase contrast, w hich is light 24 Bureau o f Labor that defines the level, or did I 25 m icroscopy; correct? 25 m is-read that? Can it establish the am ount o f 76 (Pages 676 - 679) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 680 Page 682 1 amphibole talc that can appear in cosmetic talc --did 1 "Research authorization to replace U ltraw et 2 I m isread that?" 2 . . . D S ..." 3 D r Rolle: 3 That's the reagent they w ere using; right? 4 "I can't testify that it is safe". 4 A Yes. 5 R ig h t? 5 Q "... and utilize n-Butanol as the flotation aid 6 A That's w hat it says, although w hen you read 6 in the pro cessin g o f T alc fo r use in JO H N S O N 'S ... B ab y 7 the -- if y o u go back six lines -- 7 Pow der is provided". 8 Q Mmmhmm? 8 Now, there w as n-butanol and there was 9 A - D r Shupline is saying: 9 n-butanol with citric acid; right? 10 "... h a lf per cent am phibole asbestos". 10 A Yes. 11 Q Right. 11 Q Let's go to the bottom . 12 A A nd then further dow n he's m issed o ff the w ord 12 "It is also the R& D opinion, prim arily based 13 "asbestos" in the response. 13 upon inform ation p ro vided b y W in d so r M inerals, th at the 14 So D r Rolle is saying that he can't specify 14 Butanol/C itric A cid flotation aids m ay provide J& J w ith 15 th at am p h ib o le asbestos is safe. 15 a p u re r a n d sup erio r talc fo r the B ab y Pow der". 16 Q N o, I understand, but they're talking about the 16 N ow , before you had said: w ell, I don't know 17 d etectio n lim it fo r X R D ; right? 17 i f the citric acid h ad an im pact on the baby pow der 18 A For amphibole asbestos, yes. 18 from a consum er perspective; right? 19 Q B ut X R D doesn't detect am phibole asbestos, does 19 A Yes. 20 it? 20 Q W hat they're saying here is all it does is m ake 21 A No. 21 it better? 22 Q It ju st detects -- 22 A Yes. 23 A N o, it's just, as w e've said before, w hen 23 Q Right? Okay. 24 you're doing these analyses, you m n through the w hole 24 So there w asn't a com plaint from a consum e 25 battery o f tests. 25 acceptance standpoint for the citric acid reagent; Page 681 Page 683 1 Q T hey're talking about the detection lim it by 1 right? 2 D V D for am phibole, is w hat they're talking about; 2 A It's not recorded, no. 3 right? 3 Q Right. 4 A They are, yes, yes. 4 "W ould you please provide us with the 5 Q A nd D r Rolle is saying: 5 financial considerations and tim ing to convert to this 6 "I can't testify that [that] is safe"? 6 process". 7 A Yes. 7 The citric acid process; right? 8 Q A t .5 per cent; right? 8 A Yes. 9 A Yes, yes. 9 Q "Our prim ary consideration would be to improve 10 Q N evertheless, u n d er C T F A alone, okay, u n d e r J4, 10 the safety an d qu ality o f JO H N S O N 'S ... B ab y Pow der". 11 i f y o u get a pass on X R D a t .5 p e r cent, u n d er C T F A yo u 11 R ig h t? 12 can sell th e talc; right? 12 A Yes. 13 A Y eah, a n d that's w h y Johnson & Johnson to o k a 13 Q But it w as already safe, w asn't it? 14 very responsible position to add on at least tw o other 14 A Yes. 15 test m ethods th at w o u ld raise the level o f detection. 15 Q T hen how can you im prove it if it's already 16 Q Y ou've said that m any, m any tim es. I'm just 16 safe? 17 going to --on that I am going to object to 17 A You can im prove everything w e do in our lives 18 non-responsive. 18 every day. 19 E xhibit 144. 19 So you could improve on w hat you have. 20 (Exhibit 144 m arked for identification) 20 Q But w hat about adding the citric acid flotation 21 July 22, '74. This is a letter from Johnson 21 m akes it safer? 22 & Johnson from A lan M M arks to M r M iller, w ho's, you 22 A W ell, it's claim ed to m ake it safer, but as 23 said, the m anager for W indsor M inerals; right? 23 you'll recollect from the publications w e looked at 24 A Correct, yes. 24 earlier, it was a very lim ited num ber o f experiments 25 Q It says: 25 and studies. 77 (Pages 680 - 683) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 684 Page 686 1 M y take on that is that, I m ean, quite 1 Johnson & Johnson has been co-operating with 2 frankly the cost o f citric acid is peanuts. It's not 2 the Cosm etic Toiletry and Fragrance Association 3 an expensive m aterial. 3 Subcom mittee on Asbestos in Talc. In an effort to 4 So I don't think cost w as an issue. 4 answer the question about the required degree o f 5 Q Y eah, b u t w hat w e learned from those studies is 5 sensitivity o f the m ethod for assay for asbestos in 6 the addition o f the citric acid was specifically 6 talc, our statistical group has m ade an estim ation o f a 7 introduced to decrease asbestiform and specifically 7 theoretical safe level o f asbestos fiber in a baby 8 chrysotile in the talc; correct? 8 pow der using the official TLV for asbestos and the data 9 A H ad there been chrysotile present, yes. 9 on dusting o f baby powder". 10 Q W ell, o f course, w e know that, and I'll 10 R ig h t? 11 ap p roach the - I'll go ahead an d go to the easel. 11 A Yes. 12 I'm going to go to the easel. 12 Q So Johnson & Johnson tries to tell the FDA what 13 O kay. So here w e have it. January 1, '74, 13 m ig h t b e a safe level o f asbestos in talc; right? 14 chrysotile fiber suppression, and w hat they w rote, and 14 A They're expressing an opinion. 15 I w rote th is d ow n exactly as w e to o k it fro m the 15 Q A nd that's the opinion they're expressing; 16 docum ent: the fibrous anthophyllite occurs as a rare 16 right? 17 m ineral in the H am m ondsville o re body; right? 17 A T hat is, yes. 18 A That's w hat it said, yes. 18 Q "The calculation shows that a substantial 19 Q A nd chrysotile found in association with 19 safety factor can be expected w ith talc containing 1% 20 Ham m ond ore body; right? 20 ... asbestos fibers". 21 A That's w hat it said, yes. 21 R ig h t? 22 Q A nd w hat they were doing was they were using 22 A That's w hat it says. 23 the citric acid to reduce chrysotile in any talc that 23 Q That's 1 per cent by w eight; right? 24 cam e through; correct? 24 A Yes. 25 A If it had chrysotile present. 25 Q "Therefore, m ethods capable o f determ ining less Page 685 Page 687 1 Q Right. 1 than 1% asbestos in talc are not necessary to assure 2 A Yes. 2 the safety o f cosm etic talc. The report is attached 3 Q T hat was the purpose o f the citric acid 3 herewith". 4 additive; correct? 4 R ig h t? 5 A Correct. 5 A That's w hat it says. 6 Q A nd now you have Johnson & Johnson saying: 6 Q So Johnson & Johnson, a com pany that, according 7 let's add the citric acid to im prove the safety o f the 7 to you, has no asbestos in their talc, is telling the 8 baby powder; right? 8 FD A 1 per cent asbestos in talc is safe; right? 9 A Yes. 9 A W ell, whoever wrote this letter - 10 Q The only reason to do it, per the experiments 10 Q Nashed. 11 th at w ere done, w ere to red u ce asbestiform and 11 A --is hypothesizing that if asbestos were 12 chrysotile? 12 present in talc, then even at 1 per cent, based on 13 A I f they'd been present. 13 ex trapolation from the occupational h ealth --the 14 Q Okay. 14 official threshold lim it values, w hich O S H A had 15 Y ou're disputing that they w ere present, 15 accepted for ad ults w orking in asbestos facilities, i f 16 apparently? 16 you extrapolate that, then using that sam e data, 1 17 A Apparently. 17 per cent w ould be safe. 18 Q Okay. 18 Q Right. 19 This w ill be Exhibit 145. 19 A B ut it's a hypothetical --you know, the whole 20 (Exhibit 145 m arked for identification) 20 thing is hypothetical. 21 This is a letter from Johnson & Johnson, Dr 21 Q Yeah. 22 Nashed to D r Schaffner at the FDA; right? 22 Johnson & Johnson is telling the FD A that 1 23 A Yes. 23 per cent asbestos in baby powder w ould be safe, based 24 Q September 6,1974: 24 on their calculations; right? 25 "D ear D r Schaffner: 25 A Based on calculations extrapolated from the 78 (Pages 684 - 687) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 1 OSHA data, yes. Yes. 2 Q Right. 3 A nd as a result o f their extrapolated Page 688 Page 690 1 trem olite. W e've talked about chrysotile. N ot found. 2 So that is -- that is still veiy debatable. 3 Q Okay. A t this p o in t- 4 calculation on an allegedly safe am ount o f asbestos in 4 A In the powder. 5 baby pow der, they tell the FD A as a result: 5 Q --at this point, Johnson & Johnson is still 6 "... m ethods capable o f determ ining less than 6 saying there was never any asbestos in its powder? 7 1% asbestos in talc are not necessary to assure the 7 A Yes. 8 safety o f cosm etic talc". 8 Q Okay. 9 R ig h t? 9 A nd despite, for instance, D r Blount - Dr 10 A That's w hat he's saying. 10 B lount in 1991 tested Johnson's B aby Pow der 11 Q T h at is w h at he's saying; right? 11 off-the-shelf; right? 12 A T h at's w h a t he's saying, yeah. 12 A She claim ed to have found a fibril, yes. 13 Q A nd he's w riting this to the FD A on behalf o f 13 Q N o, not a fibril. She claim ed to have analyzed 14 Johnson & Johnson? 14 over 100 am phibole fibers out o f J& J; right? 15 A H e's --yes, he's an em ployee o f Johnson & 15 A She claimed to, yes. 16 Johnson. 16 Q Right. 17 Q Right. 17 A re you aware o f any editorial letters, any 18 A Yeah. 18 academ ic w ork that w as ever done to refute D r B lount's 19 Q They're advocating a m ethod w ith a level o f 19 paper? 20 sensitivity o f no lower than 1 per cent to the FDA; 20 A I'm not aware any w as done to confirm or 21 correct? 21 refute, no. 22 A H e's --he's suggesting to FD A that they are 22 Q Now , that was a peer review ed paper; right? 23 com fortable w ith 1 per cent. 23 A Yes. 24 Q Yeah. 24 Q You've authored peer review ed papers, have you 25 A O r FD A should be com fortable w ith 1 per cent. 25 not? Page 689 Page 691 1 Q Right. J& J is telling FD A they should be 1 A I have, yes. 2 com fortable with 1 per cent; right? 2 Q Right. 3 A H e's suggesting that FD A could be com fortable 3 Peer review process m eans that other 4 w ith 1 per cent. 4 researchers blindly read the paper and evaluate it for 5 Q Okay. 5 its scientific credibility; correct? 6 W ell, he's not very equivocal. H e says: 6 A Yes, yes. 7 "Therefore, methods capable o f determining 7 Q A ll right. 8 less than 1% asbestos in talc are not necessary to 8 A nd that paper w as published in a peer review 9 assure the safety o f cosm etic talc". 9 journal? 10 Those are his words; right? 10 A It was. 11 A Those are his words. 11 Q All right. 12 Q Okay. 12 So this w ill be 146. 13 A Yeah. 13 (Exhibit 146 m arked for identification) 14 Q Do you have any - do you have any indication 14 M em o from Lee to distribution. So it m ust 15 th at the general p u blic th at is buy in g Jo h n so n & 15 h av e been one o f those w ider distribution lists; right? 16 Johnson's talc products, then, after then, o r now, ever 16 It doesn't have everybody listed here, b ut it 17 k new th at Johnson & Johnson w as tellin g the F D A th at 1 17 says "To: D istribution". T h at usu ally m eans m ore than 18 p e r cen t asbestos w o u ld be safe in b a b y pow der? 18 one person; right? 19 A W ell, they're not --yeah, I don't, no. No. 19 A Yes. 20 But, o f course, as w e've seen so m any tim es, 20 Q Okay. 21 there never was 1 per cent asbestos in baby powder. 21 Subject is February 13,1975, CTFA Talc 22 Q W hatever the percentages are, it was present; 22 Subcommittee M eeting with the FDA. 23 correct? 23 So another m eeting with the FDA; right? 24 A I don't necessarily concur w ith that. 24 A Yeah. 25 W e've talked about trem olite, non-asbestiform 25 Q L et's go to the bottom o f page 2: 79 (Pages 688 - 691) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 1 "M r G S a n d lan d ..." Page 692 1 A I don't know. Page 694 2 N ow , is he with Johnson & Johnson? 2 Q Okay. 3 A I've never com e across that nam e -- 3 W ell, let's ju st take that one as a 4 Q A ll right. 4 hypothetical. 5 A -- on any J& J letterheads, no. 5 I f you put on your baby powder, "Contains 6 Q A ll right. 6 .006 per cent chrysotile asbestos", do you think moms 7 "M r G Sandland stated that a regulation o f 1% 7 w ould buy it? 8 asbestos in talc was not only achievable by thoroughly 8 A No, but let's step that back. 9 tested m ethods, but also gave a safety factor o f 48,300 10 t 9 You said, "Had they ever refuted it?" A nd I 10 said, "I don't know". 11 A nd that is the Silverston [sic] calculation, 11 B ut w hat I do know is that, certainly back in 12 w h ich y o u u n d erstan d is the calculation th at brought 12 the early 1970s, a nu m b er o f the researchers w ere 13 th em the 1 p e r cen t n um ber in the p revious docum ent? 13 to tally co n fu sed o v er the differentiation b etw een 14 A Y eah, it's probably based on the accepted level 14 chrysotile and chlorite, and that w as a m ajor problem 15 b y O S H A in factories. 15 b y the m ethodologies that had b een u sed in the early 16 Q Yeah. 16 1970s. 17 A Yes. 17 Q That was a --that was a general problem with 18 Q "M r Eierm ann bluntly stated that the 18 X R D ; right? 19 calculation w as w rong, since the standard o f 2 19 A That was a general problem, yes. 20 fibers/cc is not a time weighted average. Before we 20 Q B ut if you're .006, you're not talking about 21 h ad a chance for rebuttal D r S c h a ffn e r..." 21 X R D , are you? 22 N ow , he's w ith FDA; right? 22 A No, no. 23 A Yes. 23 Q A nd you're not saying that M cC rone w as 24 Q "... said th at the ... [Silverston] [sic] 24 confused, are you? 25 calculation w as foolish since no m other w as going to 25 A W ell, w ithout seeing the full lab report, I Page 693 P age 695 1 pow der her baby w ith 1 per cent o f a know n carcinogen 1 w ouldn't know w hether they w ere confused, or w hether 2 irregardless o f the large safety factor. Because o f Dr 2 there was any follow up to say was it a trace that was 3 Schaffner's strong stand w e did not correct 3 in the lab? 4 M r Eierm ann's m isunderstanding o f the calculation". 4 W e talked about that. 5 R ig h t? 5 Q Mmmhmm. 6 A Yes. 6 I'm going to go ahead and use the chart 7 Q Okay. 7 again. 8 So the FD A guy says: look, if a m om knows 8 So let's ju st --let's look at -- let's look 9 that theres 1 per cent any carcinogen, they're not 9 at some o f these results we have; okay? 10 going to p o w d e r th eir bab y w ith it; right? 10 Let's look ju st look at some o f the 11 A Absolutely. 11 p ercentages th a t w e'v e b een given. 12 Q L et m e ask you this question: w e've seen som e 12 In 1971, w e have .01 per cent chrysotile in 13 figures p u t o u t b y M cC rone fo r som e testin g o f Johnson 13 Jo hnson's B ab y Pow der. 14 & Jo hnson's talc, and I'll tak e one. I th in k there w as 14 I f Johnson & Johnson said on the bottle, 15 on e th at w a s .006 p e r cen t chrysotile; do y o u recall 15 "T his p ro d u ct contains .01 chrysotile asbestos", do you 16 that? 16 think m others w ould buy it? 17 A That's w hat they claim ed. 17 A No. 18 Q Okay. 18 Q Okay. 19 A A t the tim e, yes. 19 Let's look at the FD A 's results. 20 Q Right. 20 This w ould be 107,000 trem olite fibers o f 21 Johnson & Johnson never refitted it, did they? 21 actinolite trem olite per gram . 22 A I don't know. 22 If Johnson & Johnson said to mothers on the 23 Q Right. 23 bottle, "This contains 107,000 trem olite fibers per 24 Y ou're not aw are o f it, as you sit here 24 gram", do they you think they w ould buy it? 25 today, are you? 25 A N o, but they w ouldn't use the w ord "trem olite 80 (Pages 692 - 695) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 1 fibers". 2 The question is: w as that asbestiform Page 696 1 2 Q Okay. O n the follow ing page, they -- it's at the Page 698 3 trem olite, or not asbestiform ? 3 top. It says: 4 Q W ell, it's fibers; right? 4 "The committee discussed the results o f the 5 A It's -- it's a loose term inology. 5 round robin testing o f samples to evaluate the 6 W ithout actually doing the fine detail 6 D TA /optical m icroscope procedure for chrysotile and the 7 m icroscopy - scanning m icroscopy, w e've not seen that 7 x-ray diffraction/optical m icroscope procedure for 8 differentiation in the report. 8 amphibole, developed by the A d Hoc M ethodology 9 Q O kay. A ll right. 9 Committee". 10 A t w orst, if a m other saw that, she'd say, 10 So here in 7 4 they are trying to develop a 11 "W hat is fibrous trem olite?" R ight? 11 m ethod; right? 12 A She could well ask that question, yes. 12 A Y eah, it's an ongoing process -- 13 Q Let's look at this one from 1974, the sam ples 13 Q Yeah. 14 from Argonaut. 14 A --whereby you develop m ethods and try to 15 I f the bottle said, "This contains 15 im prove the m ethods, yes. 16 .0005 per cent chrysotile" or ".007 per cent 16 Q Like I said, and at this point w e know they've 17 ch rysotile", o r ".001 p e r cen t chrysotile asbestos", do 17 already told the FD A : hey, y ou guys h old o ff on a 18 y o u th in k a m o m w o u ld bu y that? 18 regulation. W e're going to try a n d do it ourselves; 19 A If it was in the asbestos form, no. 19 right? 20 Q W ell, chrysotile is alw ays in the asbestiform ? 20 A W e're going to do a good jo b , yes. 21 A It is, yes. I f it was chiysotile. 21 Q W e're going to do a good job. 22 Q Okay. 22 By the way, when they finally passed J4-1, do 23 A I f it w as validated as chrysotile. 23 you think they did a good job? 24 Q W ell, this is the report. The report is the 24 A Yes. 25 validation o f the analysis. 25 Q Okay. Page 697 Page 699 1 D o you understand that? 1 Is that a question, or are you -- 2 A Yes. 2 A A re you asking m e a question? 3 Q Okay. 3 Q No, it sounded like you went, "Yes?" 4 A n d then this one from O ctober, '74, one 4 A Yes. 5 sam ple, chrysotile fibers af .006 per cent, and I 5 Q B ut you're saying: yes, they did a good job? 6 already asked you about that one. 6 A They did a good job. 7 A Yeah. 7 Q Okay. 8 Q If Johnson & Johnson disclosed that there was 8 Now, w hat they have here is they have the 9 .006 per cent o f chrysotile asbestos in baby powder, do 9 investigators and the results. So they have three 10 you think a single m other w ould buy that? 10 people that looked at three different sam ples; right? 11 A No. 11 A Yes. 12 Q Okay. 12 Q A nd they knew w hat was in the samples, because 13 Right. This next exhibit w ould be 147. 13 the on ly w ay y o u c an evaluate the investigator is to 14 (Exhibit 147 m arked for identification) 14 know w hat's in the sam ples? 15 A ll right. Okay. This is a - - M eeting N otes 15 A Yes. 16 o f the C T FA Talc Subcom m ittee; right? 16 Q Right? 17 A nd there's G eorge Sandland there at the top. 17 So they have McCrone, Lucy and W alter 18 H e's the C hairm an; right? 18 M cC rone. N ow , th ey w ere a hu sb an d an d w ife th at ran 19 A Yes. 19 M cC rone; right? 20 Q H e's w ith B ristol-M yers; correct? 20 A I believe so, yes. 21 A H e is, yes. 21 Q Okay. 22 Q This is from D ecem ber 4 o f 7 4 , and you can see 22 They've got Pfizer, and they have a guy nam ed 23 that there's at least tw o people here from J& J, G eorge 23 D H am er from Johnson & Johnson; right? 24 Lee and R obert Rolle; right? 24 A Yes. 25 A Yes. 25 Q Okay. 81 (Pages 696 - 699) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 700 Page 702 1 So sam ple A: 1 Q Right. 2 "Talc sam ple from Pfizer containing 2 A A nd still are, but they w ere --in this report, 3 chrysotile and antigorite". 3 the CTFA are writing the CTFA overview. 4 M cC rone didn't see it; right? 4 Q Right. 5 A That's --w ell, that's w hat it says, yes. 5 A nd Johnson & Johnson had no objection when 6 Q Right. It says, "none detected, pass"; right? 6 the C T FA w rote to the FD A and said: don't pass the 7 A Yeah, yeah. 7 regulation right now, did they? 8 Q Johnson & Johnson and Pfizer did see it; right? 8 A I'm not aw are o f that. 9 A Yes. 9 Q Okay. 10 Q Okay. 10 A But certainly the industry w as heavily working 11 Now, ultimately, Johnson & Johnson was 11 into alternative test m ethods. 12 sending its w e ek ly sam ples and b i-w eek ly sam ples to 12 Q Okay. 13 M cC rone; right? 13 A W hich was considered better than the FDA. 14 A Yes. 14 Q By them; right? 15 Q Okay. 15 A Yeah, and that was proven with the m ethods that 16 T hen down at the bottom it says: 16 w ere later adopted. 17 "The only other back-up procedure would be 17 Q So w hat you're saying is it w as proven that the 18 T E M ..." 18 C T FA m ethod they eventually drafted w as better than the 19 That's transm ission electron m icroscopy? 19 FD A m ethod; right? 20 A Yes. 20 A The m ethod that J& J adopted was better than the 21 Q "... w hich theoretically is satisfactory, but 21 FD A m ethod, w hich included transm ission m icroscopy. 22 w hich has the following disadvantages: 22 Q Okay. So that's kind o f a different point. 23 1. L ac k o f av ailability to m o st talc users". 23 M y question is: w as the m ethod that the CTFA 24 A Yes. 24 developed, the one that they told the FDA to wait for 25 Q And: 25 before they passed the regulation --was that better Page 701 Page 703 1 "Its ultra sensitivity could be a problem ". 1 than the FDA method? 2 H ow can ultra sensitivity, w hen you're 2 Sir? 3 looking for tiny, tiny, tiny things, and you w ant to 3 A I'm ju s t - ju s t th in k in g ... 4 know if they're there, how is ultra sensitivity a 4 Q Okay. 5 problem , sir, unless you don't w ant to find it? 5 A I don't know the answ er to that question. 6 A W ell, it certainly w asn't a problem to Johnson 6 Q Okay. All right. 7 & Johnson because they were pretty quick to adopt that 7 A I don't know the answ er to that question. 8 method. 8 Q That's fair. 9 Q W hen did they adopt it? 9 This is a m em o from Johnson & Johnson 10 A I believe it w as about the sam e tim e as J4-1. 10 D ecem ber 17, '74, and it's to E strin at CTFA and John 11 Q A ro u n d '76; right? 11 M enkart a t C lairol; right? 12 A Y e a h - - w ell, no. They'd already adopted the 12 A Yes. 13 first version o f J4-1 1 2 ,1 8 m o n th s beforehand. So 13 Q Okay. 14 w e're looking a t '74, '75. 14 (Exhibit 148 m arked for identification) 15 Q A ll right. Okay. 15 It says: 16 A nd I think we have m ore specific documents 16 "The talc task force has com pleted the 17 o n that. 17 process o f developm ent o f analytical procedures for 18 But the bottom line is Johnson & Johnson is 18 determ ining the presence o f chrysotile and trem olite in 19 p a rt o f the C T F A an d the C T F A is saying th at the 19 talc. W e believe it is critical fo r the C T FA to now 20 disadvantage o f TEM is its ultra sensitivity; right? 20 recom mend these m ethods to the FDA before the art 21 A The CTFA is speaking for the CTFA, not for 21 advances to m ore sophisticated techniques w ith higher 22 Johnson & Johnson. 22 levels o f sensitization". 23 Q W ell, Johnson & Johnson part o f the CTFA; 23 A Sensitization, yes. 24 right? 24 Q Right? 25 A They w ere a member, a paid member. 25 A Okay. 82 (Pages 700 - 703) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 704 Page 706 1 Q Johnson & Johnson is saying that we should m ove 1 Q "This m em o is to request authorization from the 2 for the adoption o f our m ethods before better m ethods 2 M anagem ent B oard o f $90,000 to cover additional 3 com e along; right? 3 recom m ended safety studies for talc. This m oney is not 4 A Y eah, but that's not unusual. 4 present in the current R& D budget. 5 Y ou start with a m ethod and then, as 5 O ur current posture w ith respect to 6 different m ethods becom e available, and w e talked and 6 sponsorship o f talc safety studies has been to initiate 7 D TA and talked about transm ission scanning transmissioi . 7 studies only as dictated by confrontation". 8 electron microscopy, infrared - those are methods that 8 W hat that means, sir, is their policy to that 9 y ou can add to it. 9 point has been to only do studies w hen they're 10 B ut it's a -- m y read o f that is that they're 10 confronted by som ething; right? 11 saying, b a c k in D ecem ber, '74: w e need to get som ething 11 A Yes. 12 d one, a n d so th is is as good as it's g oing to g e t in 12 Q Okay. 13 D ecem b er, '74. 13 So instead o f being proactive, they're being 14 Q O kay. W ell, let's read that. 14 reactive; correct? That's w hat that m eans? 15 A W ith option to say if and when things come 15 A N o, not necessarily. 16 along later, th ey c an be ad d ed to it. 16 W hen you do a scientific study, you do so on 17 Q I feel like you and I are reading a different 17 the basis o f v alid technical reason. Y ou're n o t going 18 sentence. 18 to spend m illions and m illions o f dollars doing 19 A Okay. 19 hypothetical studies. 20 Q So let's read it together again; okay? 20 So in this particular case, the 21 "W e believe it is critical for the CTFA to 21 confrontation, as it's described, took the form o f 22 now recom m end these m ethods to the FD A before the art 22 reports, publications, m eetings with FDA, et cetera, 23 advances to more sophisticated techniques with higher 23 w hich suggested that m ore inform ation needs to be 24 levels o f sensitization". 24 gleaned from the scientific literature. 25 R ig h t? 25 A nd so here w e're saying: go ahead and do Page 705 1 A Yes. 1 2 Q And, in fact, in the previous document the CTFA 2 3 is saying the problem with TEM, which would be a more 3 4 sensitive method, is that it's more sensitive; right? 4 5 A Yes, they are. 5 6 Q All right. You can set that aside, sir. 6 7 Is it still Johnson & Johnson's position that 7 8 Johnson & Johnson would have always advocated the most 8 9 sensitive methods for the detection of asbestos in talc 9 10 after we've seen these two documents? 10 11 A The most sensitive methods are still the same 11 12 ones, which, you know, line up with scanning or 12 13 transmission electron microscopy, in addition to the 13 14 CTFA method. 14 15 Q Well, I'm not asking you to list the methods. 15 16 I'm asking you whether or not Johnson & Johnson 16 17 actually advocated the most sensitive methods? 17 18 A If the methods had been scientifically 18 19 validated, yes. 19 20 Q This will be 149. 20 21 (Exhibit 149 marked for identification) 21 22 All right. Now, the heading of this 22 23 document - this is from G Lee, it says Strictly 23 24 Confidential, March 3, 1975; right? 24 25 A Yes. 25 Page 707 some studies. Q B ut w hat they're saying --that w asn't quite m y question. M y question was: instead o f being proactive, w hat they're saying is that their philosophy to that point had been to be reactive. In other w ords, doing the research in response to confrontation; right? A Yeah. Y ou w ait until you've got an issue that's w orth spending $100,000, $200,000. Y eah, if som eone's com ing up w ith a good idea, or a challenge in this case, you say: yeah, that could be w orth checking that out. Q H e doesn't say "good idea" or "challenge", though, does he? A W ell, "confrontation" is the w ord he's used. Q It is, yes. A A nd I used the w ord "challenge" because very often w hen com panies are confronted, they're confronted with a piece o f information, and you say, "How do I deal with that?" O ne w ay w ould be to: let's do some studies. Let's find out more. Q Sir, you didn't write this m em o, though? A I did not, no. 83 (Pages 704 - 707) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 708 Page 710 1 Q Okay. 1 MS FROST: Okay. We can do that. 2 A I w ould not use that form o f language. 2 (Off the record at 5:07 pm) 3 Q Right. 3 (On the record at 5:20) 4 Som eone else wrote this memo, and this was 4 BY MR PANATIER: 5 someone w ho had at least some responsibility for talc 5 Q This will be Exhibit 150. 6 back in the '70s; right? 6 (Exhibit 150 marked for identification) 7 A Yes. 7 A Thank you. 8 Q Okay? 8 Q Sure. 9 A Yes. 9 Sir, this is a privileged and confidential 10 Q A nd he said their current posture w as to: 10 meeting. It says Privileged and Confidential Meeting 11 "... initiate studies only as dictated by 11 XII; right? 12 confrontation". 12 A Yes. 13 Those w ere his words; right? 13 Q And it says at the top To: Dr Rolle, Strictly 14 A They were, yes. 14 Confidential, copies to Estrin and JM Pisani; right? 15 Q Okay. 15 A Yes. 16 "This philosophy, so far, has allowed us to 16 Q Now, at the top it's dated July 14,1975; 17 n eu tralize o r h o ld in ch eck data alread y gen erated by 17 right? 18 in v estig ato rs w h o question the safety o f talc". 18 A Yes. 19 M eaning that if you do it in response to 19 Q Okay. 20 som ething that's out there, you already know w hat 20 So just for context, it says at the top: 21 they're going to say, so you can respond to it sort o f 21 "The FDA-OTC Antiperspirant Panel met on July 22 on all fours; right? 22 9 and 10,1975 in Conference Room F, Parklawn Building, 23 A That's an interpretation. 23 Rockville, Maryland. All members o f the Panel were 24 Q It's a pretty fair interpretation, isn't it? 24 present except for Drs Shefter and Clayton". 25 A Say it again? 25 Okay? And it says that somebody named Dr Page 709 Page 711 1 Q Yeah. 1 A lbert M iller, a physician associated w ith M ount Sinai 2 I f you know w hat som eone's, say, criticism o f 2 Hospital, was there too; right? 3 the safety o f talc is -- 3 A Yes. 4 A Yes? 4 Q If you look at the next tw o paragraphs, we know 5 Q --you already know w hat their criticism is -- 5 that H ildick-Sm ith was there. W e know that D r Rolle 6 A Yeah? 6 was there; correct? 7 Q --then you know exactly w hat you have to 7 A Yes. 8 respond to; right? 8 Q Okay. 9 A Y es. If you've got the data, yes. 9 A nd D r G Lord w as there. H e's the Director 10 Q Okay. 10 o f the Johnson & Johnson Research Foundation; right? 11 "The principal advantage for this operating 11 A Correct. 12 p h ilo so p h y lies in the fact th at w e m inim ize the risk 12 Q L et's go to page - at the bottom it's 10571. 13 o f p o ssib le self-generation o f scientific d ata w hich 13 S hould b e a h ig hlight there? 14 m ay be p o litically o r sc ien tifically em barrassing". 14 A Yeah. 15 H e said that, didn't he? 15 Q It says: 16 A He did, yes. 16 "Dr M iller..." 17 Q So he explains exactly w hy it has been good to 17 W ell, for context, that paragraph starts: 18 only resp o n d w hen confronted; right? 18 "Questions raised during the CTFA 19 A Yes. 19 presentation included: W hy w ere ham sters used in the 20 Q Y ou can set that aside, sir. 20 inhalation study? (Battelle had noted in other studies 21 Okay. 21 the ability to produce asbestos in ham sters.) D r 22 M S FROST: W e've been going a little m ore 22 M iller noted that amosite is very sim ilar in 23 than an hour. It's entirely up to you. 23 com position to trem olite and wondered if m ore concern 24 M R PA NATIER: Y eah. Let's take a break and 24 should not be show n because, in his judgem ent, amosite 25 figure out w here w e are. Let's do that. 25 is closer to true talc than tremolite". 84 (Pages 708-711) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 712 Page 714 1 B u t then he goes to another topic, w hich is: 1 Friday m eeting with [the FDA,] the Food and Drug 2 "Dr M iller was very concerned over the 2 Administration". 3 m ethodology for the determ ination o f... [asbestos] 4 M 3 Right? 4 A Yes. 5 He says "asbestosis", but I think he means 5 Q N ow , G eorge Lee from Johnson & Johnson is 6 asbestos. 6 present. Y ou see him in the first list o f people; 7 A Yeah. 7 right? 8 Q "... m aterials in talc and believed that the 8 A Yes. 9 CTFA approach was not as sensitive as it should be". 9 Q A nd it looks like they had two sessions and he 10 So this is sort o f a recurring them e we've 10 w as there at the second session, too? 11 seen; right? 11 A Yeah. 12 A Yes. 12 Q A nd then if you turn the page, there are six 13 Q Okay. 13 people th ere from the FD A ; right? 14 I f you go to the next page --w ell, let's see 14 A Yes. 15 h e r e ... 15 Q Okay. 16 I f y o u go to p ag e a t th e b o tto m it's 574, 16 I just w ant to focus on som ething the FDA 17 okay, a n d it's still M r M iller: 17 guys said at the v ery end. So i f you'll go to the last 18 "He questioned the specificity o f the CTFA 18 page, there should be a highlight there. 19 m eth o d fo r determ ining fibrous co n ten t an d w on d ered if 19 A Yes. 20 m ore sophisticated techniques should not be utilized". 20 Q G ot it? 21 Then if you turn to the next page, the 21 A Yes. 22 C onclusion is: 22 Q "D r S c h a ffn e r..." 23 "Thus, the m ost sensitive practical m ethod 23 H e's w ith the FD A ; right? 24 should be adopted as the official standard". 24 A Yes, he is, yeah. 25 A Yes. 25 Q "... suggested the possibility o f having Page 713 Page 715 1 Q So people are advocating for that; right? 1 industry report periodically on the results o f its 2 A Yes. 2 analysis to the FDA. D rE strin ..." 3 Q Okay. 3 W ho w e know to be the head o f -- or the Vice 4 B y the tim e the CTFA J4 m ethod w as adopted, 4 President o f Science; right? 5 w as it the m ost sensitive, practical m ethod? 5 A Yes. 6 A It was the m ost sensitive, practical m ethod 6 Q "... responded the subcom m ittee w ould give 7 that had been validated. 7 serious consideration to the suggestion". 8 Q Validated means? 8 R ig h t? 9 A By --by -- well, checked out, tried out by 9 A Yeah. 10 various com p an ies in the industry to say is th is --is 10 Q So the FD A is saying: look, perhaps you guys 11 th is g oing to w ork, yeah. 11 could give us periodic reporting o f y o u r testing? 12 Q A nd they - in your opinion, they did that? 12 A Yes. 13 T h ey valid a te d C T F A J4? 13 Q Right? 14 A They had, yes. 14 A nd the CTFA guy says: we'll seriously 15 Q Okay. 15 consider that. 16 A ll right, sir. You can set that aside. 16 R ig h t? 17 T his w ill be 151. 17 A Yeah. 18 (E x h ib it 151 m ark ed for identification) 18 Q Okay. 19 Y ou see this is the m inutes o f the Talc 19 That w ould be a good thing to do; right? 20 Subcom m ittee, and it's a m eeting that w as held on 20 A Yes. 21 M arch 1 5 ,1 9 7 6 ? 21 Q Okay. 22 A Yes. 22 This next exhibit will be 152. 23 Q It's betw een the CTFA , and I believe the FD A is 23 (Exhibit 152 m arked for identification) 24 there. Yeah. It says: 24 O kay. So this is now M arch 3 1 ,'7 6 . T his is 25 "M r Sandland highlighted the results o f the 25 13 days later. 85 (Pages 712-71 5) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 716 Page 718 1 A Yes. 1 He was M edical Director. 2 Q Right? 2 Q Is that a -- 3 A nother m eeting o f the CTFA. You can see 3 A He was an MD. 4 that George Lee and Robert Rolle for J& J are there; 4 Q Is that a pretty high up role? 5 correct? 5 A Yes, yeah. 6 A Yeah. 6 Q So he has a phone dialogue with D r DH Groth at 7 Q Okay. No one from the FDA is there. Do you 7 NIOSH; right? 8 see that? 8 A Yes. 9 A Yeah. 9 Q N IO SH is the N ational Institute for 10 Q Okay. 10 O ccupational Safety and Health; true? 11 If you turn to the page under Periodic 11 A True. 12 R eporting; d o y o u see that? 12 Q Okay. 13 A Yes. 13 So let's see h e r e ... 14 Q "T he Subcom m ittee agreed on the success o f the 14 It says here: 15 p resen tatio n o f sum m ary rep o rts g iven to th e FD A . D r 15 " S h e ..." 16 E strin su g g ested th e S ubcom m ittee sh o u ld n o t obligate 16 They're talking about another doctor: 17 its e lf to giv e perio d ic reports to F D A b u t urged 17 "She then asked him about asbestos, and he 18 m em b ers to b uild th eir database so th at a t som e tim e in 18 said th at this w as a d ifferent problem , and th at he 19 th e iu tu re th e S ubcom m ittee can decide w h eth er the tim e 19 w o u ld n ot reco m m en d u sin g talc on bab ies because o f the 20 is right to present FD A with an update on industry 20 possibility o f asbestos inhalation, regardless o f the 21 analysis". 21 contam ination level. H e felt that this w ould 22 D id I read that right? 22 constitute an unnecessary risk". 23 A Yes. 23 Now, w e have seen I think two or three other 24 Q So 18 days prior, the FD A guys say: it w ould be 24 instances, sir, w here doctors have recom m ended against 25 great if you w ould give us periodic reporting. A nd the 25 the use o f talc on infants, starting in the '60s; Page 717 Page 719 1 CTFA says: w e'll give it serious consideration; right? 1 correct? 2 A Yes. 2 A There have been, yeah. 3 Q A n d th en 13 days later, th ey say: w e're not 3 Q Okay. 4 going to; right? 4 A A n individual doctor can have an opinion. 5 A W ell, the CTFA, not Johnson & Johnson, were 5 Q Sure. 6 saying that they can decide w hen the tim e is right. 6 A That's obviously her opinion. 7 Q Is there a -- 7 Q Sure. 8 A T h ey 're n o t saying th ey 're n o t going to do it. 8 Nevertheless, after each one o f these times 9 Q Yeah. 9 w here a doctor has said, "I don't recom m end the use o f 10 A T hey're going to say: w hen the tim e is right, 10 talc on babies", Johnson & Johnson did continue to 11 yeah, w e'll do it. 11 sell, a n d sells to th is day, talc for babies; correct? 12 Q T hey didn't agree to obligate them selves to 12 A Yes. 13 p eriodic rep orting to the F D A ; right? 13 Q Okay. A ll right. 14 A They did not agree, no. 14 N ext one is going to be 154. 15 Q Is there a footnote som ewhere where it says 15 (Exhibit 154 m arked for identification) 16 Jo h n so n & Jo h n so n stren u o u sly ob jected? 17 A No. 16 N ovem ber 15, 1976. T his is B ill A shton to 17 Jerom e K rause at the C olorado School o f M ines; right? 18 Q Okay. 18 A Correct. 19 This next exhibit w ill be 153. 19 Q Okay. 20 (Exhibit 153 m arked for identification) 20 A nd he just says: 21 M arch 22,1976. This was a memo by Bruce 21 "Dear Jerry: 22 Semple. 22 T his letter transm its tw o assignm ents ..." 23 N ow , this is the first tim e w e've m entioned 23 Right? So now he's giving the Colorado 24 him. W ho w as he? 24 School o f M ines assignm ents; right? 25 A Yeah. H e w as the Director o f M edical Affairs. 25 A H e is, yes. 86 (Pages 716 - 719) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 720 Page 722 1 Q Okay. 1 Colorado School o f M ines, he'd be - have a geology, 2 And, o f course, w e saw before the last time 2 rather than an M D, qualification. 3 w e -- you and I discussed the Colorado School o f M ines, 3 Q Y eah, he's a geologist. 4 it was w hen J& J had given them permission to w ork with 4 A Yeah. 5 JM ; right? 5 Q Okay. 6 A O n the issue o f fibers in talc. 6 B): 7 Q Right. 7 "I suggest that you also review it in the 8 A Yes. 8 light o f the article w hich you and I have discussed and 9 Q A nd ultim ately that specific w ork got shut 9 on w hich you are starting". 10 dow n. W e d o n't k now i f it ev er cam e b ack; right? 10 Now, are you aware that Ashton and Krause 11 A W ell, w e don't know it ever got started. 11 actually d id pu b lish a p ap er together? 12 Q Right. In fact, it didn't get started. 12 A I'm n ot aw are o f that. 13 A Yeah. 13 Q Okay. 14 Q T hey said they were about to do it; right? 14 A No. 15 A Y eah. W e don't know if it ever got started, 15 Q "You recall we planned to call your new article 16 yeah. 16 som ething like Pitfalls in A nalysis o f M ineral Pow ders 17 Q Right. 17 fo r A sbestos M ineral C ontents. T hat is to say, review 18 So let's look at part lb ) o f assignm ent 18 the Schelz article draft w ith y our proposed article in 19 nu m b er 1. 19 m ind so w e do not w ind up opening up any pitfalls in 20 W ell, you know w hat, actually let's look at 20 the Schelz draft w hich w ill appear under the J& J 21 1: 21 um brella". 22 "W ith the attached letter o f Novem ber 3rd, 22 In other words, Schelz is writing an article; 23 there is a draft o f an article on talcum powder assays 23 you're w riting an article; m ake sure you don't say 24 as prepared by our John Schelz. The article is to be 24 anything that casts any doubt or is in conflict with 25 accepted by the Journal o f Toxicology & Environm ental 25 Schelz's article; correct? Page 721 Page 723 1 Health. The outlook is that it will appear in the 1 A W ell, that's probably a slight extrapolation o f 2 January issue w hich is the sam e issue as that in w hich 2 w hat the guy is actually saying. 3 your letter to the editor is expected, wherein you 3 H e's saying: review it w ith the proposed 4 refute Langer's recent work". 4 article in m ind so w e don't w ind up opening any 5 R ig h t? 5 pitfalls in the Schelz draft. 6 A That's w hat it says. 6 In other words, if there's som ething that 7 Q N ow , you're aw are that D r Langer, D r R olle and 7 you're going to say, m ake sure it's not incorrect. 8 D r Selikoff in 1976 published a peer reviewed paper 8 Q Right. 9 looking at the asbestos in 20 different consum er talcum 9 W ell, it's not in conflict w ith Schelz? 10 pow der products; correct? 10 A O r not in conflict, yes. 11 A I have seen that publication, yes. 11 Q Right? 12 Q Okay. 12 A Yes. 13 A n d J& J, along w ith C olorado S chool o f M ines, 13 Q So they're kind o f co-ordinating their 14 w ere orchestrating refutations to Langer's work; 14 scientific papers; right? 15 correct? 15 A W ell, I w ouldn't use the w ord "co-ordinating". 16 A Correct. 16 Q T hat is w hat this letter is, isn't it? 17 Q U nder b) it says --oh, w ell, let's look at a): 17 A Colorado School o f M ines is very m uch an 18 "W e need an early critique from you on the 18 independent research institute. It's equivalent o f a 19 draft as it stands p e r the attached". 19 university. So you're not going to get them to change 20 So Johnson & Johnson, a talc m anufacture and 20 w hat they want to write. 21 seller, is co-ordinating w ith a doctor, theoretically 21 If they w ant to write an article, they would 22 independent doctor, on how to refute D r Langer's work; 22 do so w ith all the professionalism that that kind o f 23 right? 23 institute w ould do. 24 A Y eah, he's dealing w ith D r K rause, w ho I don't 24 Q That's the ideal, isn't it? 25 know, I've never m et him , I w ould assum e at the 25 A It is. 87 (Pages 720 - 723) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 724 Page 726 1 Q A nd this is an institution that w e have seen in 1 you w ould influence unduly, and 1 think that's not an 2 this letter being given two assignm ents by J&J. 2 unreasonable thing to say. 3 A Yes. 3 Q Okay. 4 Q A nd in another letter being authorized to talk 4 A I do not believe that J& J would ever influence 5 to another com pany about a certain issue; correct? 5 Colorado School o f M ines not to initiate a project with 6 A A bout an issue that was already confidential 6 a company like Johns M anville. 7 between them and Johnson & Johnson, looking for fibrou 7 Q A ll right. 8 talc in talc, yes. 8 W ell, let's ju st look at how A shton talks to 9 Q W ell, w hen they wrote their mem o about it with 9 the Colorado School o f M ines. Look at the bottom o f 10 th e JM study, th ey d id n 't sa y th ey w ere sh utting it 10 num ber 2, the second assignm ent w hich w as to test som e 11 dow n becau se it w as confidential. 11 talc: 12 They were saying they w ere w orried that it 12 "W e w ill be verbally reviewing this in more 13 m ight disclose th in g s th at w ere n ot y e t kn o w n about 13 detail sh o rtly so th at w e are bo th in agreem ent on the 14 sub-trace m inerals in talc; correct? 14 scope o f that assignm ent and how it is to be reported". 15 A W ho is "they", sorry? 15 R ig h t? 16 Q Johnson & Johnson? 16 A Yes. 17 A Johnson & Johnson. 17 Q Okay. Y ou can set that aside. 18 W ell, Johnson & Johnson never shut down 18 If you w ant to be done now, we can be done, 19 the --the o riginal correspondence w ith the School o f 19 o r I can grab a few m ore. 20 M ines, the Colorado School o f M ines, related to an 20 It's up to you guys. W e're at about a h alf 21 approval that C olorado could talk to Johns M anville 21 an hour since w e - 22 relating to w ork they'd done w ith J& J on looking for 22 M S FROST: W hy don't w e - 23 talc fibers in talc specimens. 23 M R PA NATIER: Call it a day? 24 A t a later date, as you rightly said, they 24 M S FROST: --call it quits for the day? 25 came back w ith the idea that maybe they wanted to look 25 M R PANATIER: Okay. Page 725 1 at other things w hich were not --w hich J& J w as not 1 2 party to. 2 3 So they were separating those two very 3 4 clearly. 4 5 Q The end result was the w ork never happened? 5 6 A A nd that was a relationship between Johns 6 7 M anville and Colorado School o f M ines. 7 8 Now , it w as not a Johnson & Johnson decision. 8 9 Q Y ou know that because other tim es you've 9 10 speculated about phone calls m aybe happening, and yada 10 11 y a d a yada. 11 12 B ut here you're w illing to ju st volunteer 12 13 th at Jo hns M anville a n d C olorado S chool o f M ines, 13 14 together w ithout J& J, decided to shut dow n this w ork 14 15 th at J& J d id n 't like. 15 16 Is that fair? 16 17 M S FROST: And, Chris, I've been good about 17 18 n o t m aking objections either, b u t th at on e is getting 18 19 really close to th e line. 19 20 M R PANATIER: You can answer. 20 21 T H E W ITN ESS: I am speculating based on the 21 22 way that scientists operate. 22 23 BY M R PANATIER: 23 24 Q Okay. 24 25 A A nd Colorado School o f M ines are not someone 25 Page 727 Right. W e're o ff the record for today. (W hereupon the deposition was adjourned at 5:37 pm ) 88 (Pages 724 - 727) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 728 Page 730 1 INDEX 1 2 PAGE 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 3 WITNESS: DR JOHN HOPKINS (Recalled).... ........... 38' 3 Exhibit 79........Letter Grieger (McCrone) to 4 Examination by MR PANATIER (Continued).... .......... 387 4 Zeitz (Windsor) Re testing report 5 5 Bates JNJMX68_12745 6 6 Bates JNJMX68 19698................. ..438 7 EXHIBITS 7 Exhibit 80. ...... Letter Grieger (McCrone) to 8 8 Zeitz (Windsor) testing report 9 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 9 Bates JNJNL61 79334.................. .444 10 Exhibit 67...... FDA Technical Plan Quarterly 10 Exhibit 81. ...... Report Grieger (McCrone) to 11 Project Progress Report: Asbestos 11 Miller (WMI) re Hammondsville 12 And Other Contaminants in Talc 12 Talc 13 No Bates - FIOA Doc from FDA.... ....... 388 13 Bates JNJMX68 19934................. .445 14 Exhibit 68..... Quantitative Fiber Analysis in 14 Exhibit 82. ......Analysis of FDA Talc Samples 15 Vermont and Italian Talc 15 For Amphibole and Serpentine 16 Bates JNJMX68 8245; 8235........... 392 16 Minerals Project No. 0503.1 17 Exhibit 69..... Confidential New Reagent Systems 17 Bates JNJMX68 9119................... .448 18 Plant Trial at Windsor Minerals Inc 18 Exhibit 83. ...... Memo by Russell (J&J) Procedure 19 Bates JNJMX68 4996; 5032; 5037.. 396 19 For Identification and 20 Exhibit 70..... Letter from McCrone to Rolle 20 Quantification of Amphibole 21 Bates JNJNL61 8111...................... 413 21 Particles in J&J Talcs Using 22 Exhibit 71..... J&J Memo to file Re Meeting 22 Optical Mineralogical Microscopy 23 Concerning N-Butanol-Citric Acid 23 Bates JNJNL61 492...................... 451 24 Flotation Agent, February 28,1974 24 25 Bates JNJMX68 5056..................... .414 25 Page 729 Page 731 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 3 Exhibit 72........ Memo from Ashton to Lee 4 Re Notes on Visit to Denver Area. 5 March 25 through March 27,1974 6 Bates JNJMX68 12063................ ...417 7 Exhibit 73........ Asbestos in Talc Draft 8 Bates JNJAZ55 10662; 10667..... ....... 421 9 Exhibit 74........ Examination of Talc Samples 10 Argonaut Ore Body 11 Bates JNJMX68 2666.................. .421 12 Exhibit 75........ Letter from McCrone to Rolle 13 July 8,1974 14 Bates JNJAZ55 1885................... .427 15 Exhibit 76........ Historical Review report 16 Bates JNJNL61 20827................. ..430 17 Exhibit 77........ Letter from McCrone to Zeltz 18 October 10,1974 19 Bates JNJMX68 2662.................. ..433 20 Exhibit 78........ Letter Shimps (McCrone) to 21 Zeitz (Windsor) testing report 22 Bates JNJMX68 12733................ ...437 23 24 25 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 3 Exhibit 84. ..... Report Millette (McCrone) to 4 LaPierre (WMI) Re Analysis of 5 Seven Talc Samples for Asbestos 6 Mineral Content by TEM 7 Bates JNJMX68 13019.................. ..459 8 Exhibit 85. ..... Letter from Schmidt (J&J) to 9 Molnar to Miller Re Windsor 10 Minerals Raw Talc Submissions 11 November 1986 to January 1987 12 Bates JNJAZ55 8177..................... 461 13 Exhibit 86. ..... Letter from Schmidt (J&J) to 14 Miller (Windsor) Re Windsor 15 Minerals Raw Talc Submissions 16 March 30, 1987 17 Bates JNJMX68_3728 18 Bates JNJMX68 11720.................. ...465 19 Exhibit 87. ..... Amphibole Content of Cosmetic 20 And Pharmaceutical Talcs by 21 AM Blount 22 Bates JNJNL61 14431................... ,,469 23 24 25 89 (Pages 728 - 731) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 732 Page 734 1 1 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 3 Exhibit 88.. .... Amphibole Content of Cosmetic 3 Exhibit 104......Memo from Ashton to Hildick-Smith 4 And Pharmaceutical Talcs by 4 Re Alternate Domestic Talc Source. 5 AM Blount plus attachment 5 File No. 101 6 Bates JNJNL61 95941..................... 478 6 Bates JNJAZ55 1073...................... 520 7 Exhibit 89....... NO EXHIBIT MARKED 7 Exhibit 105...... Memo from TM Thompson to Ashton 8 Exhibit 90....... NO EXHIBIT MARKED 8 Re Alternate Domestic Talc Sources 9 Exhibit 91.. ..... Emails/Bates JNJNL61 103086......... ....482 9 Project Code #101 10 10 Bates JNJNL61_1534.......................524 11 Exhibit 92....... Fax from Marc Monseau to 11 Exhibit 106...... Memo from Hildick-Smith to Fuller 12 Steve Mann, February 24 12 Re Meeting with Prof Selikoff 13 2004 Re Asbestos 13 Bates JNJAZ55_5725.......................534 14 Bates JNJI4T5 4097...................... 483 14 Exhibit 107...... Newspaper excerpts from Jack Walcott 15 Exhibit 93. ..... Memo from John Hopkins to 15 Bates JNJMX68 15773....................536 16 Steven Mann Re Talc 16 Exhibit 108...... Memo from Nashed to Walcott Re 17 February 24,2004 17 Asbestos in Talc FDA Meeting 18 Bates JNJI4T5 4096...................... 488 18 July 8,1971 19 Exhibit 94. ..... Emails Re LARC Re-evaluation 19 Bates JNJMX68_8782......................542 20 O f Talc 20 Exhibit 109...... Report from Pattengill to Ashton 21 Bates JNJNL61 100633.................... 495 21 July 7,1971 22 Exhibit 95. ..... BabyCenter website company 22 Bates JNJAZ55 6088.......................545 23 Information (a member of J&J 23 24 Family) 24 25 No Bates................................ 498 25 Page 733 Page 735 1 1 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 3 Exhibit 96. ..... BabyCenter website Re diaper rash 3 Exhibit 110...... Memorandum of a Symposium 4 No Bates................................ 499 4 August 3,1971, Asbestos 5 Exhibit 97. ..... Johnson's Baby Powder website 5 And Talc 6 Selling talc baby powder 6 Bates JN JN L 61J139..................... 548 7 No Bates................................ 500 7 Exhibit 111......Letter from Pattengill to 8 Exhibit 98. ..... The Whole-Family House Newspaper 8 Ashton, August 6,1971 9 Article 9 Bates JNJAZ55J828..................... 551 10 Bates JNJNL61 57313..................... 504 10 Exhibit 112...... Johns-Manville memo Re FDA 11 Exhibit 99. ..... JBP Label with warning 11 Talc Meeting 12 Bates JNJNL61 118802.................... 505 12 Bates CRMC-TALC-42...................... 558 13 Exhibit 10( ......NO EXHIBIT MARKED 13 Exhibit 113...... Memo from Shelley to H Kramer 14 Exhibit 101......Fatal Aspiration of Talcum Powder 14 Re Baby Powder - Talc 15 B yaC hildbyJohnM olnar,M D 15 August 9,1971 16 In New England Journal of Medicine 16 Bates JNJNL61 22019..................... 562 17 No Bates.................................510 17 Exhibit 114...... Confidential Supplement to Report 18 Exhibit 102......Poisoning of the Month: Dusting 18 On Visit to Dr Pooley 19 Powder Inhalation by Margaret 19 July 20, 1971 20 Jenkins, M.D. in Medical College 20 Bates JNJMX68_6301 ..................... 565 21 Clinics 21 Exhibit 115...... Meeting Notes from Nashed to Fuller 22 No Bates.................................511 22 Re Special Talc Project No. 503 23 Exhibit 103...... Memo from NA Poirier to Ashton 23 FDA Meeting, July 20,1971 24 Re JBP Historical Survey 24 Bates JNJMX68 3965.......................566 25 Bates JNJAZ55 49.......................... 513 25 90 (Pages 732 - 735) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 736 Page 738 1 1 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 3 Exhibit 116...... Memo from Hildick-Smith to Fuller Re 3 Exhibit 127..... Memo from Ashton to Hildick-Smith 4 Conversation with Dr Clark Cooper 4 Re Talc Manufacturers Meeting - 5 July 30,1971 5 April 12,1973, Vanderbilt Co 6 Bates JNJNL61 8624...................... 569 6 Bates JNJNL61 8380....................... 610 7 Exhibit 117...... Obituary for Dr Thomas Shelley 7 Exhibit 128..... Memo from Nashed to Fuller and g OfJ&J 8 Petterson Re Talc/Asbestos 9 No Bates................................ 576 9 April 24,1973 10 Exhibit 118...... Pneumoconiosis Due To Talc 10 Bates JNJNL61 8749....................... 612 11 In The Cosmetic Industry 11 Exhibit 129..... Memo from Petterson to DD Johnston 12 By Nathan Millman, MD. 12 Re Windsor Minerals and Talc 13 No Bates................................ 574 13 April 26,1973 14 Exhibit 119...... List of medical articles headed 14 Bates JNJMX68 13464...................... 616 15 Asbestos & Lungs 15 Exhibit 130..... Proposed Spec for Analyzing 16 Bates JNJNL61 58245..................... 578 16 Talc for Asbestos 17 Exhibit 120...... Memo from Nashed to Fuller Re 17 Bates JNJAZ55 1892....................... 622 18 Talc/Asbestos Summary of FDA 18 Exhibit 131..... Memo from GE Heinze Re Talc 19 Meeting, 8/11/71 19 Symposium, May 8,1973 20 Bates JNJAZ55 3548...................... 581 20 Department of the Interior 21 Exhibit 121...... Memo from Nashed to Hearing Clerk 21 Bates JNJNL61 6726....................... 630 22 Dept of Health Education and 22 Exhibit 132..... Memo from Petterson Re Ashton 23 Welfare, October 11, 9171 23 And Russell move to Baby Products 24 Bates JNJAZ55 3635...................... 586 24 Company, August 8,1973 25 25 Bates JNJAZ55 6196....................... 633 Page 737 Page 739 1 1 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 3 Exhibit 122...... Letter from Nashed to Robert 3 Exhibit 133..... Memo from Ashton to Caneer Re 4 November 29,1972 4 Johns Manville "authorization" 5 Bates JNJNL61 19573..................... 590 5 October 9,1973 6 Exhibit 123...... Memo from Hildick-Smith to 6 Bates JNJMX68 7040....................... 637 7 DD Johnston Re Antagonistic 7 Exhibit 134..... Memo from Ashton to Petterson 8 Personalities in the Talc Story 8 Re Talc/Asbestos File 00503 9 In The USA 9 October 23,1973 10 November 29,1972 10 Bates JNJNL61 8742....................... 642 11 Bates JNJAZ55 5015...................... 594 11 Exhibit 135..... Memo from Ashton Re Johns 12 Exhibit 124...... Memo from Hildick-Smith to 12 Manville, 11/26/73 13 Shelley Re Meeting on Talc at 13 Bates JNJMX68 7044....................... 648 14 Vanderbilt HQ, 1/15/73 14 Exhibit 136..... Memo from Nashed to Mullen 15 Bates JNJNL61 8349...................... 598 15 October 23, 1973 16 Exhibit 125...... Memo from M Goodman to Petterson 16 Bates JNJAZ55 6212....................... 651 17 Re Weekly Monitoring of Vermont 17 Exhibit 137..... Memo from Nashed to FB Whitlock 18 Talc Project No. 0124.00 18 Re Kennedy Hearings on 19 January 23, 1973 19 Pharmaceutical Industry 20 Bates JNJMX68 5969...................... 600 20 December 3,1973 21 Exhibit 12....... Handwritten note by Bob Rolle 21 Bates JNJMX68 13310....................... 653 22 Bates JNJNL61 8633...................... 608 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 91 (Pages 736 - 739) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 740 Page 742 1 1 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 3 Exhibit 138...... Memo from G Lee to Fuller 3 Exhibit 149...... Memo from Lee to Petterson 4 Re Corporate Worldwide Talc 4 Re Management Authorization 5 Information & Communication 5 For Additional Talc Safety 6 December 3,1973 6 Studies, March 3,1975 7 Bates JNJAZ55 6228...................... 657 7 Bates JNJNL61 16437................. ....705 8 Exhibit 139...... Letter from Estrin to FDA Re 8 Exhibit 150......Privileged and Confidential 9 Proposed Order Method for Asbestos 9 Meeting XII Notes 10 In Talc Published in Federal Register 10 July 14,1975 11 September 28,1973 11 Bates JNJAZ55 10568................. ...710 12 Bates JNJAZ55 8241....................... 659 12 Exhibit 151......Talc Subcommittee Minutes 13 Exhibit 140..... Talc Alternatives 13 March, 15,1976 14 Bates JNJAZ55 1282....................... 664 14 Bates JNJNL61 21692................. ...713 15 Exhibit 141..... Memo from Schelz to Rolle Re 15 Exhibit 152...... Talc Subcommittee Minutes 16 Asbestos and Quartz in Talc 16 March 31,1976 17 March 13,1974 17 Bates WCD000162....................... ..715 18 Bates JNJAZ55 5914....................... 669 18 Exhibit 153......Memo from Bruce Semple to 19 Exhibit 142..... Memo from Lee to Petterson Re 19 Petterson Re Phone Dialogue 20 Status - New Flotation Methods 20 With DH Groth, MD 21 Project No. 1133.02 21 March 22,1976 22 Bates JNJMX68 5051...................... .672 22 Bates JNJNL61 18722................. ....717 23 23 24 24 25 25 Page 741 Page 743 1 1 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 3 Exhibit 143....... Memo from Petterson Re Q&A 3 Exhibit 154...... Letter from Ashton to Krause 4 Anti-Perspirant Panel Meeting 4 Re "two assignments" 5 In Washington 5 November 15,1976 6 Bates JNJAZ55 15021................... 675 6 Bates JNJAZ55 3357................... ...719 7 Exhibit 144....... Memo from Alan Marks to Miller, 7 8 Windsor Minerals Inc 8 9 July 22,1974 9 10 Bates JNJMX68 7236.................... 681 10 11 Exhibit 145....... Memo from Nashed to 11 12 Schaffner, September 6,1974 12 13 Bates JNJNL61 13575................... 685 13 14 Exhibit 146....... Memo from G Lee to Distribution 14 15 Re CTFA Talc Subcommittee Meeting 15 16 With FDA, Washington, DC 16 17 February 7,1975 17 18 Bates JNJAZ55 13775................... 691 18 19 Exhibit 147....... Meeting Notes of CTFA Talc 19 20 Subcommittee, December 4,1974 20 21 Bates JNJMX68 9140.................... .697 21 22 Exhibit 148....... Memo from Wallace Steinberg to 22 23 Estrin and Menkart Re Talc 23 24 December 17,1974 24 25 Bates JNJMX68 9139.................... .703 25 92 (Pages 740 - 743) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 744 1 CERTIFICATE OF DEPONENT 1 ERRATA SHEET Priority-One Court Reporting/Veritext 2 2 718-983-1234 ASSIGNMENTNO. Pl-2657979 3 I, JO HN H O PK IN S, hereby certify that I have read the 3 CASE NAME: Herford, Verdolotti, Teuscher & Etheridge v. foregoing pages, num bered 1 through 348, o f my Asbestos/Johnson & Johnson DATE OF DEPOSITION: 8/16/2017 4 deposition o f testim ony taken in these proceedings on 4 WITNESS' NAME: Dr. John Hopkins Vol 2 5 W ednesday, A ugust 16,2017, and, w ith the exception o f PAGE/LINE(S)/ CHANGE REASON 6 ! !_______ / 5 the changes listed on the next page and/or / !_______ / corrections, if any, find them to be a true and 7 / /_______ ! / /_______ / 6 accurate transcription thereof. _______ / _______ / 7 9 7 / ______________________ / 8 /___/_______ / 10 7 __________ / ______________________ / 9 / /_______ / 11 /__/_______ / 10 / _ _ _ _ / _______________ / 11 Signed: ............................ 12 / /_______ / /___/_______ / 12 N am e: JO H N H O PK IN S 13 ! /_______ / ! /_______ / 13 D ate: ............................ 14 / /_______ ! 14 / _ _ / _____________ 1 15 / /_______ / /___/_______ ! 7 __________ !______________________ / 1156 16 7 / ______________________ / 17 / /_______ ! 17 7 __________ !______________________ / 18 IS i /_____________! /____/_______ ! 19 19 ! /_______ ! 20 20 Dr. John Hopkins Vol 2 21 21 (Notary not required in California) SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO 22 22 BEFORE ME THIS DAY 23 23 OF______________, 2017. 24 24 NOTARY PUBLIC 25 25 MY COMMISSION EXPIRES. Page 746 Page 745 1 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 2 3 I, D EIRD RA JO RDAN , an A ccredited C ourt Reporter, 4 hereby certify that the testim ony o f the witness, JOHN 5 HOPKINS, in the foregoing transcript taken on 6 W ednesday, August 16,2017, was recorded by me in 7 machine shorthand and w as thereafter transcribed by 8 me; and that the foregoing transcript is a true and 9 accurate verbatim record o f the said testimony. 10 11 12 I further certify th at I a m n o t a relative, em ployee, 13 counsel o r financially in v olved w ith an y o f the 14 parties to the within cause, nor am I an em ployee or 15 relative o f any counsel fo r the parties, n o r am I in 16 any w ay interested in the outcom e o f the w ithin cause. 17 18 19 Signed: ............................ 20 Name: DEIRDRA JORDAN 21 D ate: ............................ 22 23 24 25 93 (Pages 744 - 746) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER I, DEIRDRA JORDAN, an Accredited Court Reporter, hereby certify that the testimony of the witness, JOHN HOPKINS, in the foregoing transcript taken on Wednesday, Augustl6,20l7, was recorded by me in machine shorthand and was thereafter transcribed by me; and that th foregoing transcript is a true and accinrate verbatim of the said testimony. . v ;;i . . ^ .'- I further certify that I am not a relative, employee, counsel or financially involved with any of the prties to the within cause, nor am I dn employee or relative of any counsel for the parties, nor am I in any way interested in the outcome of the within cause. 18 19 Signed: 20 , Name; 21 / .Dat:' - DEIRDRA JORDAN August 28,2017 f / m t'M 23 24 25 1 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 2 3 I, DEIRDRA JORDAN, an Accredited Court Reporter, 4 hereby certify that the testimony of the witness, JOHN 5 HOPKINS, in the foregoing tansdrrph taken on 6 wednesday, August 16, 2017, was recorded by me in : .7 machine shorthand and was t]lereafter transcribed by 8 me; and that the foregoing t:rahscript is a true and 9 accurate vrbtim retord of the said testimony. 10 'll 12 I further certify that I am not a relative, employee, 13 counsel or financially involved with any Of the 14 parties to the within cause nor am I n employee or 15 relative of any counsel for the parties, nor am I in 16 any way interested in the &litcOme of the within cause. 17 18 , 19 Signed: i"A ;* #i**:* 20 , Name: DEIRDRA JORDAN 21 .Pt:'- Au*g"usjt28f,t20*17i..... 22 23 24 25 [& - 100] Page 1 & & 379:16 380:10 381:10 382:9 383:8,13,14,19,19 384:8,13,19 385:2 385:6,12,17,22,25 386:2,7,10,12,15 386:22 387:11 388:17 390:16 392:9 393:4 394:4 397:8 399:6 401:2 402:1 408:7 410:17 412:16 416:16 417:19,21 418:3,7,9 421:22 422:17,20 424:15 425:9 427:9,20 429:7 432:3,16 436:10,16,19,23 437:1,10 440:12 441:4,7,11,21,24 441:25 442:5,9 443:10 449:6,12 450:11 451:12 452:5 454:15,17 460:7 461:13 466:2 476:4 477:24 482:13,17 489:8 491:10,11 491:20,24 492:8 492:13 493:1,3 494:3,5,6,15 496:25 497:21 498:15,19 499:11 500:9,17 501:2,7 503:13,20 504:3 505:24 506:23 507:5,19 509:3,11 509:19 510:6 511:13 513:13,20 521:20 526:24 529:18 530:12 531:8,21 532:6,19 533:8 535:21 537:9,16 538:19 538:24 539:1,6,12 540:16 541:5,11 542:7 543:1 547:7 547:20 549:4,8,10 549:16 551:5 553:15,17,18 554:2 556:10 557:12 558:1 559:22 562:6 564:11,22 566:2,7 567:24 568:21 571:10 572:3 573:12 574:1 581:25 582:6,8,11 582:14,15,19 583:1 584:20,23 585:22,25 587:10 588:12 589:3 590:5 592:20 593:19,21 594:7 597:4,22 599:16 600:11,14 605:18 606:13 609:2 610:9,15 611:14 613:13 617:20 618:1 620:23 626:14,17 627:17 632:1,20 636:2 637:10 639:17,22 639:24 642:19,20 645:3 646:7 650:8 655:25 658:2 659:15 666:21,22 667:1,15 669:4,10 670:11679:18 681:13,22 685:6 685:21 686:1,12 687:6,22 688:14 688:15 689:15,17 690:5 692:2 693:14,21 695:14 695:22 697:8 699:23 700:8,11 701:7,18,22,23 702:5 703:9 704:1 705:7,8,16 711:10 714:5 717:5,16 719:10 720:25 721:20 724:7,16 724:17,18 725:8 736:15 740:5 746:3,3_________ _____________ 0 _____________ 0.01 543:12 0.05 602:14 622:25 623:21 624:3 00000 514:25 515:4 516:6 517:7 0001 426:15 0005 413:20 426:11 696:16 001 426:13 696:17 00503 739:8 006 434:17 435:3 435:12,23 436:2 693:15 694:6,20 697:5,9 007 426:13 696:16 01 454:12,16 695:12,15 0124.00 737:18 02 482:10,10 609:9 04 487:25 489:5 05 624:23 627:18 0503.1 730:16 07932-1047 386:13 08903 383:21 0932-17 380:6 Pin 513:12 ______________1 _____________ 1 394:12 399:19 419:5 420:4 438:9 439:11,21,23 452:14 454:12,16 454:22 455:4,5 457:22 458:2 463:20 464:1 471:5,21 472:22 476:12 546:20,22 546:25 575:10 585:5,13,24 586:14 588:8,24 595:15 597:21 601:6,11,16,17 605:13 609:8,13 610:4 611:6 660:10 662:16,21 665:9 684:13 686:19,23 687:1,8 687:12,16,22 688:7,20,23,25 689:2,4,8,17,21 692:7,13 693:1,9 700:23 720:19,21 744:3 1.000 479:23 480:1 1-2 393:23 1.0 409:18 1.3.74 389:8 1/ 15/73 737:14 10 478:11499:3 538:7 540:15 598:16 638:15 710:22 729:18 100 385:9,14 404:11,19,23 458:14 467:17 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [100 -15] Page 2 474:7,9479:14,23 480:1 518:9,13 519:15,17 640:16 662:7 690:14 733:13 100.000 707:10 1000 384:9 479:15 10005 385:9 10022 384:4 100633 732:21 101 510:4,5 511:20 511:21 733:14 734:5,9 102 511:22,23 733:18 103 513:18,19 733:23 103086 732:9 104 520:2,3 734:3 105 524:7,8 734:7 10568 742:11 10571 711:12 106 534:4,5 608:17 608:21 609:9 734:11 10662 729:8 10667 729:8 107 390:7,17 392:2 392:10 536:3,4 670:10 734:14 107.000 392:13 695:20,23 1073 734:6 108 542:3,4 591:23 592:25 734:16 108t 591:6 109 545:13,14 734:20 109t 591:6,24 592:25 10:03 379:13 387:1,5 10:13 396:11 10:15 396:12 11 467:1 560:2 566:2 581:24 612:23 736:23 11/26/73 739:12 110 548:12 735:3 111 551:23,24 735:7 112 558:15,16 735:10 113 562:18,19 735:13 1133.02 740:21 1139 735:6 114 565:4,5 735:17 115 566:18,19 735:21 1152 385:4 116 569:6,7 736:3 117 573:6 574:10 574:13 736:7 11720 731:18 118 574:14,15 736:10 118802 733:12 119 578:23,24 736:14 11:16 451:8 11:27 451:9 11th 384:4 12 395:5 444:23,24 445:3,11 463:8 467:1 576:19 587:21 608:8,14 701:13 737:21 738:5 12.21.73. 390:15 12/21/73 389:24 120 581:16,17 736:17 12063 729:6 121 586:20,21 736:21 122 590:19,20 737:3 123 386:3 594:9,10 737:6 124 598:4,5,7 737:12 125 600:20,21 737:16 126 608:2,3 127 610:12,13 738:3 12733 729:22 12745 730:5 128 612:20,21 738:7 1282 740:14 129 615:25 616:1 641:1,2 738:11 12:00 482:1 12:02 482:2 12:15 495:6 12:55 495:7 13 444:22 445:6 467:1 513:23 612:22 671:24 691:21 715:25 717:3 740:17 130 622:3,4 738:15 13019 731:7 131 390:3 630:5,6 738:18 132 633:21,24 738:22 133 390:3 637:5,6 638:10,11 739:3 13310 739:21 134 390:3 642:16 642:17 739:7 13464 738:14 135 390:3 455:7 648:16,17 739:11 13575 741:13 136 390:4 651:6,7 739:14 137 390:4 653:22 653:23 739:17 13775 741:18 138 390:4 657:24 657:25 740:3 139 659:11,12 740:8 14 467:1 512:16 710:16 742:10 140 664:10,11,17 740:13 141 669:15,16 740:15 142 672:2,3 740:19 143 675:7,8 741:3 144 681:19,20 741:7 14431 731:22 14433 471:3 14434 476:13 145 685:19,20 741:11 146 691:12,13 741:14 147 697:13,14 741:19 148 703:14 741:22 149 705:20,21 742:3 15 401:8 467:1 482:10,25 524:15 531:8 598:15 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [15 - 200] Page .3 636:14 713:21 719:16 742:13 743:5 150 710:5,6 742:8 15021 741:6 151 713:17,18 742:12 152 715:22,23 742:15 15222 384:10 153 717:19,20 742:18 1534 734:10 154 719:14,15 743:3 15773 734:15 15th 385:4 16 379:12 387:4 467:1 625:16,18 744:4 745:6 16437 742:7 17 428:5 429:22 451:21467:1 703:10 741:24 1700 385:23 18 431:13 467:1 630:9 701:13 716:24 18722 742:22 1885 729:14 1892 738:17 1894 514:16,17 1896 623:12 18th 616:9 19 393:11 394:25 467:1 532:13 1900 386:8 1900s 432:9 537:10 1907 514:13,15,19 1910 514:23,24 19109 386:4 1920s 526:13 1923 514:24 1926 514:22 515:2 515:6 516:10 1933 504:6 1940s 527:18 1941 516:13,20 517:11 1945 518:13 1946 519:5,8 1947 578:15 195 388:11 1955 444:13 1957 567:25 19573 737:5 1958 568:4 1960s 541:24 1962 510:14 512:9 1966 513:23 1969 520:4 521:9 524:15,19 526:4 527:5 530:11 531:8 532:7 533:7 19698 730:6 1970s 408:23 694:12,16 1971 534:9,10 535:21 538:25 539:11 540:24 541:6 545:17 551:4 552:14,18 555:15 557:3 562:20 563:14 565:2,6 566:21 567:24 569:16 695:12 734:18,21 735:4,8,15,19,23 736:5 1972 388:14 532:14 587:22 597:11 737:4,10 1973 391:16 393:12 395:1 547:20 598:16,24 610:2 616:2 621:13 630:10 634:4 636:14 643:1 653:24 658:1 663:25 737:19 738:5,9,13 738:19,24 739:5,9 739:15,20 740:6 740:11 1974 398:22 402:20 411:8 415:5 418:14 419:22 422:5 427:20 634:23 671:24 672:5 685:24 696:13 728:24 729:5,13 729:18 740:17 741:9,12,20,24 1975 431:25 438:9 444:8,17 446:2 448:21 555:18 691:21 705:24 710:16,22 741:17 742:6,10 1976 628:5 713:21 717:21 719:16 721:8 742:13,16 742:21 743:5 1978 465:9 1980 451:21 452:14 1980s 502:8 506:18,21,24 513:14 1981 573:22 1985 459:9 1986 731:11 1987 461:15 731:11,16 1989 468:20,21 1991 469:5,11 476:25 481:14 690:10 1992 478:11 505:24 19934 730:13 1995 408:17 l b 720:18 lh q 379:17 _______ 2 2 379:11 394:12 399:19420:14 428:10440:15 463:21 470:21,21 486:12,15 488:4,4 488:6 561:25 569:1 575:10 591:7 592:8 596:1 608:22,23 618:5 665:23 676:18 691:25 692:19 726:10 746:4,20 2.12 609:3 2.2 608:17,21 20 409:5 435:19 444:11446:2,13 466:14 467:1 537:13 538:7 565:6,8 566:22,24 633:15 662:7 672:4 721:9 735:19,23 200 385:14 388:23 404:11,19,23 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [200,000-461] Page 4 200,000 462:22,25 707:10 20005 385:4 2002 482:5 2004 483:25 488:9 732:13,17 2006 496:11 2009 492:17 2015 523:12 2017 379:12 744:4 745:6 746:22 202.339.8458 385:5 20827 729:16 21 427:25 428:5 467:1 566:21 567:1 212.605.6200 384:5 212.912.3505 385:10 213.243.6112 386:18 213.283.2100 384:21 213.443.4365 385:24 213.486.8043 384:15 214.276.7680 383:5 215.772.7242 386:4 21692 742:14 22 415:13 459:9 467:1 482:10 681:21 717:21 741:9 742:21 220 519:9 22019 735:16 227 470:7 23 398:3 467:1 643:1 737:19 739:9,15 24 425:13 426:7 448:21 487:25 612:23 732:12,17 738:9 25 379:16 418:22 466:14 517:12,24 518:14 622:18 729:5 2500 386:17 26 516:1,5 616:2 640:20 648:20 738:13 2657979 379:25 2662 729:19 2666 729:11 2670 426:2 27 454:11,21 591:23 729:5 28 398:4 415:5 728:24 740:11 280 413:15 2800 384:20 29 390:3 398:22 438:17 539:11 590:21 651:1 737:4,10 2:14 572:10 2:15 572:7 2:37 572:11 3 3 394:14 420:23 428:10 439:11 470:15 523:5 532:14 548:14 551:16 552:14 558:22 559:7 569:2 570:10 591:7 592:8 596:10 653:24 658:1 705:24 735:4 739:20 740:6 742:6 3,000 404:8,18,23 3.30.87. 466:23 3.441 540:19 30 396:9 447:18 461:15 465:9 467:13 514:15 538:7 569:16 631:11,14731:16 736:5 300 384:20 386:8 300-600 447:19 31 715:24 742:16 3200 384:14 3232 383:4 33 640:8,9 3357 743:6 3400 383:15 344 546:5 550:18 3441 546:9 547:2 551:11,20 552:7 553:7,16 348 744:3 35 631:11,14 3548 736:20 3635 736:24 3728 731:17 38 425:16 426:8 3828 735:9 387 728:3,4 388 728:13 392 575:23 728:16 39211 385:14 396 728:19 3965 735:24 3:1 408:16 447:6 471:6,11 3:43 640:13 3:58 640:14 3rd 720:22 4 394:14 398:11,13 418:14 428:6,9 439:12 446:13 510:14 569:2 641:3 660:10 679:5 697:22 741:20 40 383:20 388:1,6 519:22 538:7 556:16 405 383:10 4096 732:18 4097 732:14 41 518:9 412-281-5000 384:10 413 728:21 414 728:25 417 729:6 42 735:12 421 729:8,11 427 729:14 430 729:16 433 729:19 437 729:22 438 730:6 44 393:6 444 730:9 445 730:13 448 730:17 45 418:1 560:5,6 451 730:23 455 384:14 459 731:7 46 519:17 461 731:12 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [465 - 70s] Page 5 465 731:18 469 731:22 478 732:6 48,300 692:9 480 383:20 482 732:9 483 732:14 488 732:18 49 560:17 733:25 492 730:23 495 732:21 498 732:25 499 733:4 4996 728:19 5 394:16 400:20 411:18 444:7,13 444:17 449:16 452:16,24 455:8 455:18 456:10,15 457:22,23 471:9 471:10 473:12 519:8 548:22,23 592:7 627:1 629:10,15,18 630:21 632:9 660:10 679:10 681:8,11 5.10.71 540:15 50 464:12 494:4,4 519:10 538:7 50/50 516:16 519:11 500 383:10 467:4 733:7 5015 737:11 5025 404:2 503 735:22 5031 405:7 5032 728:19 5037 728:19 504 733:10 505 733:12 5051 740:22 5056 728:25 50s 527:18 541:12 541:15 510 733:17 510.590.9511 386:9 511 733:22 513 733:25 520 734:6 524 734:10 534 734:13 535 384:9 536 734:15 54 519:21 542 734:19 545 734:22 548 735:6 551 735:9 558 735:12 562 735:16 565 735:20 566 735:24 569 736:6 5725 734:13 57313 733:10 574 712:16 736:13 576 736:9 578 736:16 58 390:3 581 736:20 58245 736:16 586 736:24 590 737:5 5914 740:18 594 737:11 5969 737:20 5973-16 382:5 598 737:15 5:07 710:2 5:20 710:3 5:37 727:2 6 394:16 474:13,23 540:19 548:23 551:25 604:1 685:24 735:8 741:12 6.23.05. 497:20 60 390:3 519:21 532:25 60-70 447:12 600 383:15 386:13 737:20 601 386:17 601.863.2100 385:15 608 737:22 6088 734:22 60s 494:22 513:12 541:12,15,18 664:20 667:7 718:25 610 383:4 738:6 612 738:10 616 738:14 6196 738:25 62 511:13 6212 739:16 622 738:17 6228 740:7 63 512:9 576:17 630 738:21 6301 735:20 633 385:23 738:25 637 739:6 642 739:10 648 739:13 65 467:25 651 739:16 653 739:21 657 740:7 659 740:12 664 740:14 669 740:18 67 388:7,8 728:10 672 740:22 6726 738:21 675 741:6 68 392:19,20 728:14 681 741:10 685 741:13 69 396:22,23 520:9 523:22 532:17 728:17 691 741:18 697 741:21 7 7 438:19 545:17 547:7 551:20 552:8,18,21 583:15 654:13 734:21 741:17 7-14 496:11 7.7.71. 545:21 7/15 434:14 7/29 434:14 70 413:1,2 464:1 728:20 703 741:25 7040 739:6 7044 739:13 705 742:7 70s 388:12 494:22 541:13,19 657:17 659:4 664:20,22 665:13 667:7 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [70s - absolutely] Page 6 708:6 71 414:21,22 415:3 536:8,9 537:16 540:15 542:9 547:7 548:14 551:16 552:2,21 558:22 559:7 560:2 579:16 581:7 728:22 710 742:11 713 742:14 713.227.8008 383:16 715 742:17 717 742:22 718-983-1234 746:2 719 743:6 72 388:12 417:17 417:18 418:12,13 581:24 590:21 591:23 729:3 7236 741:10 7249-16 381:6 73 395:5 421:20,21 532:17 598:15 601:2 608:8 612:22 625:16,18 627:22 630:1 638:15 640:20 648:20 729:7 732.545.4717 383:21 74 391:16 412:22 416:10 422:14 424:21,22 425:13 425:21 426:7 430:2 434:25 442:20 627:22 672:4 681:21 684:13 697:4,22 698:10 701:14 703:10 704:11,13 729:9 75 427:17,18 432:6 439:21 517:11,25 518:14701:14 729:12 75204 383:5 76 430:11,12 628:7 628:11 701:11 715:24 729:15 77 433:22,23 729:17 77002 383:10 77002-2926 383:16 78 437:4,5 729:20 79 438:5,6 730:3 79334 730:9 _________ 8_________ 8 427:20430:2 439:12 499:3 514:13 634:4 729:13 734:18 738:19,24 8/11/71 736:19 8/16/2017 746:3 80 444:5,6 730:7 800 384:4 80s 509:21 657:17 81 445:18,20,22,24 448:9 730:10 8111 728:21 8177 731:12 82 448:9,11 730:14 8235 393:20 728:16 8241 740:12 8244 395:3 8245 660:13 728:16 8248 393:5 83 451:18,19 730:18 8349 737:15 8380 738:6 84 388:16 390:3,7 459:4,5 671:16 731:3 85 461:11,12 731:8 85-28 459:18 460:13 85-30 459:18 460:13 86 465:7,8 731:13 8624 736:6 8633 737:22 87 390:3 469:1,2 731:19 8742 739:10 8749 738:10 8782 734:19 88 478:3,4 732:3 89 640:16 732:7 8th 611:5________ _________ 9_________ 9 422:5,14 516:10 520:4 542:9 562:20 640:7 710:22 735:15 739:5 90 640:16 732:8 90,000 706:2 90017-5704 386:18 90071 384:20 385:23 90071-1651 384:15 90s 513:15 91 482:5,6,7 732:9 9119 730:17 9139 741:25 9140 741:21 9171 736:23 92 483:20,21 506:11,13 732:11 93 488:21,22 732:15 94 495:9,10,15 732:19 94612 386:8 95 498:8,9 732:22 95941 732:6 96 499:16,17 733:3 97 500:20,21 733:5 972.537.4205 383:11 973.549.7338 386:14 98 503:25 504:1 733:8 99 505:16,17 733:11 9th 524:19 675:21 a abbreviate 411:9 ability 416:6 673:20 711:21 able 427:11 533:7 570:9 622:23 626:8 644:2 647:11 abreast 522:10 abroad 522:7 absent 466:9 absolute 528:18 531:4 absolutely 503:9 549:18 650:17 693:11 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Ine. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [abstract - agree] Page 7 abstract 401:7 469:15 academie 690:18 accept 503:13 626:4 653:13 acceptable 454:13 454:17 455:3 571:6 572:3 651:12,25 665:5 acceptance 682:25 accepted 613:24 614:9 687:15 692:14 720:25 accepting 496:12 access 395:24 594:2,3 accidently 507:4 accompanying 461:21 accredited 745:3 accumulated 411:20 accurate 411:12 412:13 434:24 436:8 540:11 590:10,11 744:6 745:9 accusation 529:5 accustomed 446:24 achievable 692:8 achieve 644:23 acicular 461:25 462:2 acid 398:1,4,7,15 401:11,14,18 404:22 405:14 406:2,9 409:4 415:6,15 416:2 417:1,11 433:3,9 461:25 529:6,8 672:8,21 673:1,16 673:18 674:1,9,10 675:3 682:9,14,17 682:25 683:7,20 684:2,6,23 685:3,7 728:23 acknowledges 427:9 443:10 acknowledging 526:24 act 492:4 acting 614:14 actinolite 390:8 392:15,16,17 394:15 395:19 407:23 453:13,18 539:13 546:20,23 546:25 547:2 548:17 551:20 552:20,23 554:4 619:14 627:7 642:4 695:21 action 508:20 604:2,4 605:24 active 593:19 actively 397:12 595:8 activities 613:5 636:24 actual 490:5 533:13 577:14 589:10 ad 698:8 adaptation 634:10 add 399:19 401:14 545:19 552:15 627:23 681:14 685:7 704:9 added 409:16,17 628:15,25 629:1 704:16 addendum 615:1 adding 627:24 683:20 addition 475:13 672:8 684:6 705:13 additional 417:6 706:2 742:5 additive 685:4 additives 587:19 addressed 477:19 524:19 654:14 addresses 429:22 483:7 addressing 522:9 adequate 633:5 adhesives 573:15 adjourned 727:2 administration 469:19 558:22 659:17 714:2 admission 512:17 513:2 adopt 417:11 613:10 701:7,9 adopted 450:16,18 450:20 585:3 626:18 701:12 702:16,20 712:24 713:4 adoption 704:2 adults 687:15 advanced 589:4 advances 703:21 704:23 advantage 475:15 709:11 advantages 397:15 adverse 526:21 531:3 538:14 595:17 666:7 advertisements 504:2 advice 499:5 509:2 598:3 613:9,12,14 advisory 660:25 advocate 417:22 666:18 667:4 676:21 advocated 659:4 705:8,17 advocates 666:12 666:19 667:4,15 667:24 668:2,16 669:7,10 advocating 416:5 688:19 713:1 aerosol 673:9 affairs 522:24 573:18 717:25 affect 668:8 affiliates 658:7 afraid 582:25 afterthought 489:14,23 aged 576:17 agencies 522:7 665:17 agency 496:8 596:17 agent 409:4 415:6 417:12 418:6 432:17 728:24 ago 388:1,6 418:1 529:3 555:16 556:16 586:13 658:8 agree 417:14 440:5 504:10 507:15 538:20 579:18 600:4,4 612:11 717:12,14 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [agreed - anthophyllite] agreed 614:15 626:22 716:14 agreeing 578:19 agreement 441:23 571:9 646:15 726:13 agrees 572:4 aha 429:8 441:6 ahead 390:13 395:3 411:16 426:1 431:10 448:24 482:4 495:4 500:3 534:24 559:25 570:15 648:10 684:11 695:6 706:25 aid 682:5 aids 682:14 aimed 611:10,21 612:3 air 633:9 airdate 485:1 a! 379:7 380:10 381:10 382:9 474:15 al's 603:15 alan 681:22 741:7 albert 711:1 alcohol 409:3 alice 468:22 469:4 478:14 allegation 648:25 allegedly 504:15 688:4 allied 570:17 allowance 585:5 585:13,24 586:15 allowed 451:15 708:16 alluded 605:13 alter 403:3 alternate 520:7 521:17 663:12 734:4,8 alternative 432:3 491:5 665:5 702:11 alternatives 431:19 620:4 665:1 740:13 alveolae 527:25 amadea 384:19 amalik 385:6 amax 384:11 386:20 america 380:7 381:7 382:6 384:12,17 386:19 american 385:19 598:20 amosite 602:22 711:22,24 amount 405:3 413:19454:17 529:6,11 533:17 634:23 635:7 679:25 688:4 amounts 390:5,6 455:3 456:22 526:23 528:2 536:25 546:20 553:10 641:24 amphibole 404:5,9 404:12,18,19,25 405:4 411:23 445:8 448:16 452:7 453:12 454:5,8,11,16,21 455:8 461:22 469:3,17 470:1,5 471:18,19 474:7,9 474:20 475:18 476:15 477:2,9 481:15 679:13 680:1,10,15,18,19 681:2 690:14 698:8 730:15,20 731:19 732:3 amphiboles 438:15,22 455:19 455:20 456:14,19 456:21,23 457:2,9 457:21 462:13 463:10 464:2,9 466:19 467:2,5,13 467:17,21,25 468:10 475:15 479:13 627:6 analysed 413:10 analyses 400:22 480:9 546:5,17 678:8,16 680:24 analysis 413:11 434:7 448:15 450:9,10 452:23 488:12 543:8 591:12 615:13 623:20 624:1 651:11 670:7 677:10,19 678:2 678:17,18,20 696:25 715:2 716:21 722:16 728:14 730:14 731:4 analytical 485:20 487:18 550:9 570:17 639:10 703:17 analyze 479:12 491:7 492:5 Page 8 622:24 analyzed 390:4 413:6 427:25 428:5 438:20 480:6 550:17 670:20 690:13 analyzing 453:25 622:6,20 738:15 anchor 485:2 angeles 379:1 384:15,20 385:23 386:18 animal 531:1 533:3 570:18 anne 385:3 announce 636:11 announcement 634:6 636:7 annual 422:4 answer 418:3 431:19 524:9 535:14 606:14,24 607:3,8 621:3 650:22,22 674:11 674:14 686:4 703:5,7 725:20 answers 535:8 559:16 607:10 675:11 676:3 antagonistic 595:2 595:21 596:7 597:5 737:7 anth 411:10 anthophyllite 407:4,22 409:19 409:25 411:3,10 411:21486:8,23 488:6 546:19 602:21 627:7 684:16 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [anti - asbestos] Page 9 anti 675:12 741:4 antigorite 448:1,3 449:18,23 700:3 antiperspirant 710:21 anybody 450:18 531:25 532:3 625:19,20 anybody's 620:24 anymore 518:24 anytime 493:16 anyway 558:19 631:6 663:25 apparently 512:16 514:19 555:1 586:17 589:18 645:10 675:16 679:12 685:16,17 appear 475:23 478:5 499:13 528:16 579:15,24 631:12 634:22 680:1 721:1 722:20 appeared 447:19 447:25 633:16 appearing 383:2,8 383:13,19 386:10 appears 431:18 433:7 449:11 478:1 applicable 636:25 application 495:12 679:1 applications 459:25 applied 623:22 624:2 631:10 633:11 applies 507:2 appreciate 415:2 599:8 apprehension 666:6 apprized 436:19 509:11 approach 416:3 616:17,21 617:14 618:8 640:21 666:15 668:16 684:11 712:9 approaching 669:5 appropriate 535:12,18 563:4 570:18 618:10 653:18 approval 647:17 647:17 649:21,25 654:16 724:21 approved 522:3 approximately 434:16,20 435:4 435:12,23,25 447:12,18 512:17 apps 499:6 aprii 418:14 422:5 422:14 425:13 426:7 504:6 514:13 519:5,8 520:4 524:15,19 531:8 532:7 533:7 612:22,23 616:2,9 640:20 738:5,9,13 arden 384:16 area 418:15 438:14 539:5 543:13 570:19 577:24 633:6 729:4 areas 410:15,20 573:15 argonaut 425:2,5 425:8,21 426:21 427:16,16 443:24 696:14 729:10 argument 614:17 arguments 552:14 arm 's 509:8 arrangement 436:10 441:2 art 562:1,14 703:20 704:22 article 478:14 512:3 659:9 720:23,24 722:8 722:15,18,18,22 722:23,25 723:4 723:21 733:9 articles 522:6 579:3,10,23 736:14 asbestifiber 619:24 asbestiform 400:22 405:11 406:17 407:14,19 407:23 408:2 427:11 428:1,11 434:14 446:20 469:17 475:15 496:10 550:13 554:10 620:10,15 633:10 684:7 685:11 689:25 696:2,3,20 asbestiforms 409:6 491:2 672:23 673:21 674:3,12 asbestos 388:24 389:17 393:15 401:19 402:6,21 403:11407:19,23 408:2,4,5,8,23 411:23 412:5 414:18,19 417:20 418:6 422:15,18 422:19 426:8,20 426:21427:11 430:3,6 432:18,23 433:4,13,15 438:24 439:4,7,15 440:1,6,10,17 442:14,15,24 443:10 444:21 445:7 449:3 451:13 452:12 459:17 460:3 469:19 470:2,6 471:7 473:21 474:14,16,21 475:5,7 477:1,5,19 479:9 483:8 484:2 484:9 485:1,3,5,9 486:7,12,24 488:8 491:1492:15 505:12 522:19 523:13,13,15,15 523:17,19,20 534:21 536:22 537:1,10,13,17,21 537:25 538:13 539:5,24 540:4,4,7 542:15 547:12,16 551:2 553:6,9,11 553:24 554:3,9,14 554:15,21 556:20 559:14,18 563:6 563:12,15 564:2 564:10 567:17 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [asbestos - assure] Page 10 568:10,12,15 570:6,21,25 571:2 571:4,5,10,21 572:2,20,21 580:5 580:8,13,14,16,18 580:20,22 581:2,3 581:7,11,13 584:24 585:7,16 585:25 586:15 587:24 588:9,15 588:19 590:9 591:19 592:5,12 592:16 593:11 595:16 598:22 601:12 602:3,21 604:17 605:20,21 606:1,5 609:9,10 609:12,14 610:4,8 611:8 613:2 615:10 616:18,19 616:23 617:15 618:7,7,11,18,21 619:2,8,15,21 622:6,20,23,24 623:13 625:22 627:2,3,8,10 631:9 631:12,23,25 633:11,13 641:16 641:21 642:5 643:6 654:9,15 655:7,18,20 656:1 656:8,13,21,23 657:9,10,16 658:23 659:5 664:7 679:14 680:10,13,15,18 680:19 686:3,5,7,8 686:13,20 687:1,7 687:8,11,15,23 688:4,7 689:8,18 689:21 690:6 692:8 694:6 695:15 696:17,19 697:9 705:9 711:21 712:3,6 718:17,20 721:9 722:17 728:11 729:7 731:5 732:13 734:17 735:4 736:15,18 738:8,16 739:8 740:9,16 746:3 asbestosis 580:1 712:5 ashton 418:16 419:11423:23 493:17,23 494:6 494:24 513:24,25 520:5,15 521:4 524:18 533:6 540:20 543:22 545:17 552:6,12 600:24 610:20 616:8 630:10 634:7 636:11,16 638:12,24 639:16 643:1 645:11 646:2 648:18,19 650:23 658:22 669:25 719:16 722:10 726:8 729:3 733:23 734:3,7,20 735:8 738:3,22 739:3,7 739:11 743:3 ashton's 451:23 aside 392:18 396:14 417:16 421:19 424:11 427:14 430:10 433:21 438:4 440:21 451:6 458:6 460:21 465:6 468:2 483:19 499:15 501:19 505:15 511:19513:17 520:1 523:21 533:23 535:25 545:12 551:14 562:17 564:19 569:5 574:18 578:22 586:7 590:18 608:1 610:11 621:17 633:20 642:15 648:15 651:5 657:15 664:5 669:12 671:22 705:6 709:20 713:16 726:17 asked 479:12 488:24 550:17 567:21 585:4,12 593:17 622:19 628:18 646:3 670:17 674:8 697:6 718:17 asking 424:6 523:25 524:3,6 530:15 548:5,5 568:11 570:20,24 593:16 594:6 604:11 606:14 607:6 644:6 645:2 646:4 647:16 661:7 699:2 705:15,16 aspect 408:16,18 408:20 471:6,11 471:21 472:9,18 473:6 474:12,14 474:22 477:2 aspects 523:23 644:15 646:1 647:13 aspirated 510:25 aspiration 510:16 511:16733:14 aspires 507:4 assay 686:5 assaying 491:1 assays 589:19 720:23 assembly 419:3,4 assignment 720:18 726:10,14 746:2 assignments 719:22,24 724:2 743:4 assimilated 621:6 assistance 643:6 associate 615:4 636:22 644:10 645:13 648:1 associated 410:21 599:6 711:1 associates 400:23 400:24 405:12 association 411:24 412:5,7,12 493:8 493:13 512:4 684:19 686:2 assume 506:19 558:1,3 626:17 721:25 assumption 661:18 assumptions 588:6 590:2 assurance 417:7 assure 539:1 687:1 688:7 689:9 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [asterisk - back] Page 11 asterisk 582:18 583:5 at&t 379:6,6 attached 484:13 535:6 636:7 648:21 675:11 687:2 720:22 721:19 attaches 536:16,20 attaching 625:8 634:6 654:14 attachment 401:7 406:16 437:11,11 478:8 732:5 attack 595:10,13 attapulgite 447:21 attem pt 600:6 attend 415:16 570:9 599:5 attended 610:22 attending 384:2 385:2 386:2 552:13 attention 483:16 522:20 524:20 576:25 673:5 attitude 596:12 613:10 615:3 attributable 398:2 attributed 525:15 530:9 august 379:12 387:4 459:9 548:14 551:16,25 552:14 558:22 559:7 560:2 562:20 570:10 579:16 581:24 587:21 634:4 636:14 735:4,8,15 738:24 744:4 745:6 author 411:14 423:19 433:10 435:11 514:3 authored 418:16 567:3 594:11 690:24 authorization 682:1 706:1 739:4 742:4 authorized 419:3 642:19,21 724:4 authorizes 638:18 availability 700:23 available 399:15 432:8,14 626:11 626:19 704:6 avenue 383:4 384:4,20 average 464:17 692:20 avoid 410:15 506:8,9 614:24 673:10 674:17 aware 391:19 422:21 449:2 466:10 477:13,15 477:18 487:2,4 492:12,16 511:5 526:1,3,5 537:23 557:11 598:12 599:20,21 605:21 632:20 670:21 690:17,20 693:24 702:8 721:7 722:10,12 axe 565:24 597:12 597:16 axial 447:6 axis 517:21 azad 386:7______ ________ b_______ b 404:17,17 406:16 641:9 721:17 722:6 728:7 babies 500:18 501:3,8 503:20 507:16 508:12,17 508:18,24 526:22 527:1 718:19 719:10,11 baby 403:4 412:17 429:10,11,14,18 429:22 440:25 441:20 442:2,3,16 458:24 460:14 464:6,17,21 466:1 466:2,7,24 476:5 477:1,20 480:22 480:24 481:2,16 484:12 485:8,23 486:6,24 488:6,8 499:22,25 501:15 501:21 503:14,16 504:15,21,23,25 505:7 507:1,2,3,4 507:14,24 508:7,8 508:15,19,19,21 509:1,4,9,20,25 512:21 513:24 514:8,12,14 531:11 532:11 533:9 539:3,12 540:19 541:7 542:17 543:9 546:10 548:18 551:6 563:5 566:3 567:13 568:4 591:6 608:14,14 609:2,2,13 610:3,5 616:18 618:16 620:24 633:16 634:7,15 636:12 636:25 641:8,9,14 641:25 642:10 672:19 682:6,15 682:17 683:10 685:8 686:7,9 687:23 688:5 689:18,21 690:10 693:1,10 694:5 695:13 697:9 733:5,6 735:14 738:23 baby's 500:11 501:22,25 502:2,2 502:18,24 503:4 507:13,21 babycenter 498:14,17 499:1,4 500:9 501:1 732:22 733:3 babycenter.com 498:1,6,11 babycenter.com. 499:19 bachelor 573:9 back 389:6 392:21 422:3 444:12 476:12 478:7 481:25 486:16 495:13 497:19 518:14 524:17 526:13 531:25 536:1 553:17 555:15 556:3,16 557:3,13 563:14 564:1 581:7 600:1 605:3 607:20 609:25 610:14 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [back - bluntly] Page 12 650:13 652:6 667:7 680:7 694:8 694:11 700:17 704:11 708:6 720:10 724:25 background 665:3 backing 648:24 bacon 379:16 383:14 598:16 599:11 610:16,23 bacteria 637:21 653:1,3,7 bacterial 447:20 bad 493:12 521:24 523:2,8 524:3 563:19 652:15 668:5,20 bag 519:9,9 bags 519:10 balance 633:4 ban 619:1641:21 bar 470:19,19 bare 632:11 barely 465:2 473:15 bars 470:20 bartlett 383:3 base 523:4 613:5 based 402:24 416:25 476:24 531:1 537:13 594:6 601:22 604:5 638:7 664:20 682:12 687:12,23,25 692:14 725:21 basic 390:12 400:12 basically 507:13 528:6,7 553:21 585:14 587:11 616:22 644:18 647:10 668:10 basis 491:20 584:10 588:25 603:6 706:17 batch 541:3 606:2 batches 605:15 bates 477:25 560:5 660:12 728:13,16 728:19,21,25 729:6,8,11,14,16 729:19,22 730:5,6 730:9,13,17,23 731:7,12,17,18,22 732:6,9,14,18,21 732:25 733:4,7,10 733:12,17,22,25 734:6,10,13,15,19 734:22 735:6,9,12 735:16,20,24 736:6,9,13,16,20 736:24 737:5,11 737:15,20,22 738:6,10,14,17,21 738:25 739:6,10 739:13,16,21 740:7,12,14,18,22 741:6,10,13,18,21 741:25 742:7,11 742:14,17,22 743:6 battelle 521:9 532:20,21 540:6 543:1 711:20 battery 680:25 bc646315 379:5 beach 385:8 bearing 638:19 639:11 bearings 398:19 becoming 573:17 bed 512:18,20 beginning 515:9 628:14 629:24 657:3 begins 655:5,11,17 behalf 688:13 behavior 507:1 belief 403:1 believe 469:6 480:9 490:4,20 502:7 506:14 509:22 514:25 519:7 532:9 557:17 560:14 561:16 571:4 572:1 588:6 589:4 590:5 612:18 617:7 669:19 699:20 701:10 703:19 704:21 713:23 726:4 believed 443:22 460:23 712:8 bell 379:6 bench 554:13 beneficiated 546:13 beneficiating 427:6 589:3 beneficiation 401:23 427:10 447:4 458:18,25 466:16 benefits 417:7 553:16 berkeley 570:2,5 best 501:11 525:3 528:25 621:21 658:13 better 433:4 478:6 541:20 620:5,6 627:19 631:23 638:8 682:21 702:13,18,20,25 704:2 beyond 387:25 531:4 604:9 bi 436:7 442:22 443:22,24 444:2 700:12 bicks 385:3 biddle 386:12 big 396:25 410:9 510:11515:15 bilateral 575:13 bill 418:16 423:23 493:16,23 494:6 513:25 520:4 540:20 545:17 610:20 616:8 636:16,22 638:5 638:12 719:16 biological 665:25 bit 393:7 467:16 556:23 573:4 574:16 647:3 672:6,25 black 470:19 blind 480:7 587:11 blindly 691:4 block 396:25 blount 468:22 469:4 471:4 476:24 478:14 481:14 690:9,10 731:21 732:5 Mount's 477:14 478:6 690:18 bluntly 692:18 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [blush - Campbell] Page 13 blush 486:1,4 board 448:10 461:17 481:13 527:17,18 619:18 706:2 boat 519:2 boats 518:20 bob 608:5 610:2 658:5 737:21 body 409:20 410:6 410:11,13,19 411:1,11,24412:6 412:12 425:2,17 426:22 438:18 621:6 665:6 676:6 676:11 684:17,20 729:10 boric 529:6,8 born 519:6 bottle 695:14,23 696:15 bottom 389:8 391:4 393:5 400:20 404:3 411:17 467:20 471:2 476:13 495:17 498:10 502:18 504:5 512:25 543:7 560:16 582:21 615:1 623:11 634:19 652:18 676:4 682:11 691:25 700:16 701:18711:12 712:16 726:9 bound 614:23 box 383:20 500:2 512:19,22 brake 556:21 brand 583:4 brands 505:2 break 445:14 448:7 451:7 572:8 572:9 630:8 640:12 709:24 breaks 473:22 breath 609:21 breathe 502:14 609:3,5,13,17,20 609:20,20 610:5 breathes 608:14 breathing 506:10 609:23 brenntag 380:7 381:7 382:6 386:5 brief 654:14 bring 432:1 475:13 622:19 bringing 521:4 brings 610:14 bristol 384:17 697:20 broad 379:16 386:3 387:18 broadly 525:20 612:13 broken 506:8 brought 521:6 552:10 692:12 brown 385:12 444:11 bruce 717:21 742:18 brunswick 383:21 657:18,21 658:9 budget 635:1,2 669:9 706:4 buffer 492:24 493:3 build 716:18 building 384:9 485:5 710:22 bulk 635:8,21,24 bunch 536:12 562:25 bundle 438:1 bundles 473:25 475:16 477:8 bundy 384:14 burden 537:1 bureau 587:3 611:2 613:6 614:12,23 679:24 business 614:17 635:15 666:8 butanol 398:3,4,7 398:7,15 401:12 401:15 404:17,22 405:13,13 406:2,9 415:6,15 416:2 417:1,11 432:17 433:2,2,7,8,9 672:8,18,21,21,25 672:25 673:15,16 673:18 674:1,10 675:3 682:5,8,9,14 728:23 butyl 409:3 buy 500:23,24 541:24 635:13,13 694:7 695:16,24 696:18 697:10 buying 635:7,21 689:15 c c 383:1,4 384:1 385-1 386-1 400:23 404:22 405:11 587:4 621:2 ca 601:11 cake 463:17,21,22 464:2 calcification 580:20 calculation 686:18 688:4 692:11,12 692:19,25 693:4 calculations 687:24,25 California 379:1 384:15,20 385:23 386:8,18 484:1 515:3,7,25 516:15 516:18 517:4 518:4 569:23 570:2 746:21 call 398:25 399:2 472:16 481:19,20 484:18,25 485:12 493:16,17 631:14 722:15 726:23,24 called 400:11 415:12 430:18 478:24 485:19,25 498:6 518:4 520:15,16 554:7 570:8 595:2 598:10,17 610:23 615:2 635:15 636:5 653:20 654:9,20 663:23 670:3 calling 429:2 484:16 calls 476:18,20 725:10 callum 415:16 camp 631:25 Campbell 474:15 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [campus - characterization] Page 14 campus 386:13 cancer 496:9 528:19 537:2 631:12 673:8 674:7 caneer 542:11 543:8 545:22 549:14 560:20 638:12,16 644:12 645:23 646:3 647:12 739:3 capable 686:25 688:6 689:7 capacity 495:13 captain 519:2 car 662:6,12 carbon 678:19 carbonates 390:6 carcinogen 693:1 693:9 carcinogenicity 496:10 carcinoma 580:2 Cardiff 595:11 care 539:1 cared 511:14 513:13 carefully 623:16 Carolina 512:4 carpenter 386:17 carried 479:11 carries 537:1 case 379:5 384:17 384:22 385:11,25 386:5,10 400:10 436:24 439:15 443:2 466:9 475:23 478:1 491:3 492:9 499:13 508:25 510:17,23 513:3 526:9 555:21 575:18 576:16,24 577:3,16 578:14 597:13 605:10 645:10 648:11 706:20 707:12 746:3 cases 384:12 440:6 453:12 537:21 578:5 619:25 casts 722:24 catch 673:21 category 596:9 cause 479:5 506:10 522:1 523:14,15 525:2 526:2 643:18 651:21 666:6 745:14,16 cautionary 633:7 cautioned 538:11 620:20 cautiously 607:12 caveat 615:13 cc 692:20 cc'd 563:24 610:21 cc'ing 600:23 654:4 cc's 562:25 587:11 660:24 669:22 ceased 513:2 cellulose 602:1 cent 398:4 399:19 413:20 414:11 426:12 435:3,12 435:23 436:2 447:12 454:12,16 454:22 455:4,5,8 455:18 456:7,10 456:15 457:22,22 457:23 458:14 470:16 486:12,15 488:4,6 517:11,12 517:24,25 518:9 518:14 519:15,17 519:21,22 540:19 546:22,25 569:2 585:25 586:15 592:7,7,8 601:16 601:18 609:8,13 610:4 624:23 627:1,18 629:10 629:15,18 679:13 679:15 680:10 681:8,11 686:23 687:8,12,17,23 688:20,23,25 689:2,4,18,21 692:13 693:1,9,15 694:6 695:12 696:16,16,17 697:5,9 center 560:1 centimeter 632:10 centralized 658:20 centre 570:3 centrifuge 470:17 643:25 century 509:13 certain 426:9 515:13 555:8 590:2 632:2 639:9 646:22 653:17 724:5 certainly 394:22 414:4 458:23 483:22 490:10 508:21 509:2 511:13 515:9 521:20 526:1,13 527:17 534:22 537:16 541:20 557:19 563:14,16 564:6 569:21 581:7 582:9 586:3 593:25 605:15 643:14 650:7 694:11 701:6 702:10 certifcate 490:16 744:1745:1 certify 744:3 745:4,12 cetera 510:18 536:15 559:19 706:22 chafed 504:16 chain 482:9 chairman 570:5 697:18 challenge 707:12 707:14,18 chance 557:1 692:21 change 416:22 515:3,18,19 516:6 517:11 518:13 556:24 651:18 723:19 746:5 changed 478:18 512:19 518:3,14 651:21 675:4 changes 516:15 530:8 673:10 674:17 744:5 changing 507:21 508:1,8,22 509:5 657:1 chapter 612:19 characteristic 471:20 characterization 677:7 678:23 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [characterize - clinical] Page 15 characterize 677:11 characterizing 562:13 charged 592:21 Charles 380:3 chart 539:10 545:19 591:22 695:6 chase 383:15 cheaper 504:24 check 406:25 708:17 checked 539:16 713:9 checking 707:13 checks 605:14 chemical 396:17 521:2 522:25 596:6 677:10 678:2,19 chemist 504:21 573:11 chemistry 402:25 573:10 586:12 chief 504:21 538:11 658:20 child 500:6 506:9 507:6 510:17,25 512:22 513:7 609:13 733:15 children 506:7 507:17,23 510:22 536:23 china 492:14,14 chips 446:13 chisone 517:7 chlorite 694:14 chlorites 394:13 choice 649:10,15 649:17 655:6,12 656:16 choose 493:5,6 500:7 choosing 655:5,11 655:17 656:8,12 chose 660:7 chris 383:3 725:17 chrysotile 398:14 399:1,8,15,20 400:4,4,9 401:10 401:11,14,19 402:5,17,19,21 403:11405:22,25 406:3,3,10 407:4 411:23 412:4,11 413:14,18 414:17 415:7 416:4,6 417:2 420:15 421:4 426:12,20 426:24 427:3 428:10 430:6 434:15 435:24 437:16,20 438:23 447:23 448:4 449:18 450:13 459:17 460:3 551:6 562:2,6,10 566:3 583:21 584:1,4,17 591:7 591:19 592:1 593:1,17 596:4 601:22 602:1,6,11 602:14 604:9,17 604:20 606:3,5 607:1620:11 623:19,20,23 631:22 648:23 649:1 671:4,9,10 671:12 672:7 684:8,9,14,19,23 684:25 685:12 690:1 693:15 694:6,14 695:12 695:15 696:16,17 696:17,20,21,23 697:5,9 698:6 700:3 703:18 chunks 437:21 churg 580:16 cite 512:11 citric 398:4,7,15 401:11,14,18 404:22 405:13 406:2,9 409:4 415:6,15 416:2 417:1,11 433:3,9 672:8,21 673:1,16 673:18 674:1,9,10 675:3 682:9,14,17 682:25 683:7,20 684:2,6,23 685:3,7 728:23 city 510:18 595:14 claim 576:15 626:21 claimed 566:5 583:22 670:12 671:10 683:22 690:12,13,15 693:17 clairol 703:11 clare 536:13 563:25 587:14 658:10 d are's 658:7 clarification 427:15 451:1 504:19 545:25 635:23 clarifying 638:20 clarity 539:21 d a rk 380:10 381:10 382:9 383:19 386:10 569:18,19 570:1 736:4 clarke 549:4 classed 619:15 classifiable 642:1 642:11 classified 619:19 619:23 642:5 clay 447:20 clayton 710:24 clean 553:3,20 554:24 555:13 556:13 557:4,15 558:1 561:1,4,18 616:17,21,22 617:3,4,7,8,14,22 640:21 cleaner 446:14 clear 390:1,24 399:22 410:5 517:18 540:24 544:19,23 560:3,7 560:10 593:24 606:1 607:19 624:17 628:4 629:4 clearly 591:17 600:5,13 649:16 649:17 651:24 725:4 cleavage 471:25 474:21481:15 cleavages 471:22 473:1,1 476:3,15 476:18 clerk 736:21 clinical 521:2,5 525:6 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [clinics - concentration] Page 16 clinics 733:21 close 432:20 506:7 725:19 closed 433:15 closely 475:8 closer 393:7 711:25 closing 402:24 clothes 556:20,25 coat 556:25 code 734:9 codes 460:12 colamarino 484:14 Colgate 491:6 colleagues 424:4 collecting 603:17 college 733:20 color 412:9 Colorado 418:22 542:11 543:23 545:16 548:16 551:19 554:5 557:19,21 558:2,6 560:20 637:4,7,9 638:13,24 639:19 642:21 643:4 644:6,12 645:7,23 646:5,6,12 647:25 648:6,12 649:16 649:20 650:3,8,25 719:17,23 720:3 721:13 722:1 723:17 724:20,21 725:7,13,25 726:5 726:9 colors 558:21 com 498:14 combination 401:12 409:3 come 400:12 441:21 443:6 486:16 519:6,24 536:1 556:21 563:21 594:17 597:17 651:23 676:23,24 692:3 704:3,15 comes 455:17 473:25 564:15 609:24 comfortable 688:23,25 689:2,3 coming 412:21 480:24 707:11 comment 387:25 419:21 564:13,14 572:16 587:18 614:7 615:20 commentary 626:15 commenting 590:3 612:9 comments 453:11 533:14 565:10,21 566:8 commercial 388:23 670:19 commercialized 626:11 commercially 626:19 commission 746:25 commissioned 650:12 committee 660:25 698:4,9 common 493:7 507:12 508:13 571:23 communication 438:8 490:7 658:2 740:5 communications 484:8 618:17 641:15 communities 499:7 community 485:4 580:12 companies 432:10 450:12 549:1 598:19 663:22 707:19 713:10 company 379:7 384:11,17 385:17 385:19 386:20 397:8 418:4 429:8 429:9,10,12,14,18 429:22 436:11 465:25 466:1,2 485:19 491:6,10 493:4 507:10 509:7 516:24 520:24 521:23 523:7 527:16 563:25 573:19,24 574:5 581:1 583:3 598:9,17,18 610:3 634:8 635:20 636:12 637:16 661:24 666:22,23 687:6 724:5 726:6 732:22 738:24 company's 545:9 compared 470:17 474:13 525:11 compelled 529:7 compensation 576:15 competent 565:15 565:23 566:1,9,13 566:15 compiled 514:10 complaint 682:24 complete 432:18 433:13,19 532:15 completed 413:10 434:7 703:16 completely 433:17 571:9 completeness 395:9 completion 417:9 compliance 489:25 661:14 663:6 composed 473:20 474:5 475:22 composition 711:23 compromise 666:14 667:23,25 668:4,15,21 669:6 compromising 667:24 669:9 conceal 653:10 conceivable 529:9 concentrate 446:14 467:12,17 467:25 644:2 646:20 concentrated 618:17 641:15 concentrating 618:10 630:3 643:6,9 644:19 645:8 648:22 649:6 concentration 411:25 575:10 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [concentration - contaminated] Page 17 602:17,18 606:9 623:6 645:16 concern 526:20 572:20 616:15 711:23 concerned 523:1 523:23 525:8 578:2,4 602:4 616:23 621:25 633:6 647:23 666:4 668:25 669:2 674:21 712:2 concerning 415:6 525:13 535:4 552:16 570:20,24 728:23 concerns 528:22 conclusion 438:21 575:11 616:16 712:22 conclusions 397:21,25 409:2 639:9 conclusively 538:17 concur 459:23 599:7 689:24 concurred 671:3 condition 525:18 conduct 570:17,18 conducted 398:21 514:9 conducting 490:23 conference 710:22 confident 617:8 confidential 396:25 613:2 705:24 710:9,10 710:14 724:6,11 728:17 735:17 742:8 confirm 395:23 690:20 confirmations 440:18 671:15 confirmed 440:1,6 440:9,13 604:11 604:12,16 confirming 671:13 confirms 596:6 638:17 648:21 conflict 646:5,18 646:19 647:22 648:11 722:24 723:9,10 conflicting 644:15 646:1647:13 confrontation 706:7,21 707:8,16 708:12 confronted 706:10 707:19,19 709:18 confuse 611:15 614:5 confused 522:24 694:13,24 695:1 confusing 611:10 611:22 612:3 conjectural 525:7 conjunction 553:5 553:24 conopeo 384:22 consensus 417:5 consequently 415:17 522:1 consider 645:2 715:15 considerable 616:15 considerably 427:5 consideration 497:9 535:12,16 683:9 715:7 717:1 considerations 683:5 considered 402:11 403:20 529:4 564:24 631:25 702:13 considering 535:21 622:22 666:3 consisted 438:17 438:19 consistent 559:15 consists 595:14 consolidation 636:15 constant 480:12 constitute 718:22 consultant 394:21 401:2 489:6,7 491:23 492:18 535:17,22 553:17 557:12 558:2 561:10 564:24 597:1,23 637:7 consultants 492:14 549:12,17 549:24 556:11 559:23 591:12 592:16 626:3 637:9 consulted 530:22 consults 479:8 consume 682:24 consumer 403:3 416:18 429:9 441:8 461:2 482:17 505:11 633:6,8 656:15,17 656:21 666:12,18 666:22 667:4,14 667:24 668:2,15 669:6,10 675:5 676:21,21 677:3 682:18 721:9 consumers 403:7 416:23 459:22 618:2 666:19 667:2 contact 479:4 506:8 577:13 contacted 484:10 643:3 contain 434:13 470:1 554:3 591:19 621:5 641:24 contained 390:5,7 428:10 476:3 529:11 539:5 571:3 591:7 648:25 container 464:16 510:21 511:1 containing 474:20 479:10 522:5 686:19 700:2 contains 449:17 449:18 479:9 504:25 633:9 641:25 642:11 694:5 695:15,23 696:15 contaminant 447:20 contaminants 389:17 401:22 402:2,5 728:12 contaminated 493:11 553:19 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [contaminated - correct] Page 18 555:2 557:25 contaminating 558:8 contamination 438:15 553:11 554:20 555:9,14 556:2,23 557:2 605:11 718:21 contemplating 425:18 content 390:4 404:5 428:1439:9 439:15,23 440:16 446:9 461:22 469:3,17,19 477:19 528:17 563:7,12,15 564:11 570:25 571:5 572:2 603:11 605:16,20 678:24 712:19 731:6,19 732:3 contents 522:2 722:17 context 388:9 389:7 399:12 548:23 598:23 624:11 710:20 711:17 continually 581:12 continue 636:22 719:10 continued 384:1 385:1 386:1 387:3 728:4 continues 516:12 561:25 660:16 continuing 634:14 673:5 continuous 606:21 contrast 677:10,24 contributes 538:14 control 563:5,13 564:10 572:21 615:6 649:17 678:23 controversial 454:24 455:4 controversy 616:19 convening 598:18 conversation 569:18,25 638:17 736:4 conversations 495:11 converse 625:3 convert 683:5 converting 672:20 convey 493:14 convinced 615:7 cooper 569:18,19 570:1,2,5,8,20,24 736:4 copies 418:18 430:14,16 710:14 copy 392:23 478:6 485:10 505:18 558:18,19 569:10 594:22 634:6 core 425:16 corn 621:3 cornstarch 431:18 431:23 432:2 500:7,14 621:9,14 corollary 626:20 corp 379:6 corporate 484:8 573:18 658:1 664:25 740:4 corporation 385:19 649:13 650:19 correct 388:17 389:13,14 390:19 391:7,16,17,19 392:14 395:21 397:2,9,10 398:23 398:24 399:8,9,11 401:1,3,4 402:3,18 403:8 404:20 405:14,15,22,23 406:1407:19 408:21 410:2,13 411:4 412:6,19 413:7,23 415:21 416:7 417:2,3 425:6,7,9,24 426:8 426:13,14,18,22 427:12,13,21 428:7,13,18 429:12,16 430:8,9 432:7,9 433:20 436:17 437:1,2 438:9 439:7 440:6 440:10 441:4 442:1,6 443:11,24 443:25 444:8,9,19 447:15 449:4,5 450:16,17,19 451:13,24 452:2,8 453:25 454:1,13 454:18 455:6,22 456:16 457:7,10 457:11 458:19 459:22 461:15 462:2 463:9,11,13 463:14 464:23 465:22,23 466:10 466:11,21 467:11 469:11,12 471:12 472:2,20 473:24 474:1,2 475:22 476:5,16,23 477:1 477:10,25 478:20 479:21480:16 481:16,17 482:16 485:23 486:24 488:10,12 491:25 492:1495:1,3 497:13,15 500:19 502:20 505:4,13 505:14 506:24 507:18 509:13,14 511:3 513:3,21,22 516:13,14 517:9 517:13 521:6,12 521:21,22 522:14 523:14 525:21 527:2 528:9 529:16 530:2 531:17,18 536:17 536:18 537:19 538:8,9 540:9 545:5,6,10,11,22 546:11,24 547:24 550:7 551:3,7,21 551:22,25 560:13 566:21,22 567:2 568:22 569:2,14 569:20 571:11,12 571:17,18 572:21 572:22 574:19 575:20 579:4 581:14,15 584:7 584:22,24,25 587:25 588:15,21 589:12,15,17 590:16,17 591:21 591:24,25 592:9 593:12 594:3 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [correct - cyanamid] Page 19 599:10 601:18 605:8 607:13,21 608:9 609:11 610:1611:17 612:3 613:21 617:23 619:10,18 619:24 620:11,16 620:25 621:8 622:11,12 623:8 624:9,19 625:6,10 626:18 629:13,16 629:17 630:12,13 632:3,13,22 634:16,17 637:12 643:22 644:6,21 645:5,17 646:3,23 647:6 650:9 657:18 659:6,15 662:1 663:2,3 664:13,14 667:3 668:17 670:11 677:25 678:4 681:24 684:8,24 685:4,5 688:21 689:23 691:5 693:3 697:20 706:14 711:6,11 716:5 719:1,11,18 721:10,15,16 722:25 724:5,14 correcting 590:13 corrections 744:5 correctly 390:10 401:25 612:8 619:4 624:7 correspondence 461:1,6,8 489:1 543:3 563:20 724:19 corridor 636:18 cosmetic 388:23 428:24 450:5 458:8,10,25 465:18,21 466:7 469:4,16 490:24 545:9 559:14 571:2,6 572:3 574:25 575:19 576:25 577:10 578:17 618:25 619:6 620:24 641:20 680:1 686:2 687:2 688:8 689:9 731:19 732:3 736:11 cosmetics 389:13 558:21 571:1 600:7 670:4 cosmich 385:12 cost 663:5 684:2,4 costly 504:23 coughed 512:24 council 570:6 counsel 745:13,15 count 406:6 444:23 492:6 counted 445:6 counter 562:9 675:22 counts 405:11 461:24 471:5 county 379:1 380:1 381:1 382:1 couple 413:11 course 417:21 436:23 473:14 478:5 486:22 510:24 530:15 537:9 538:23 596:24 602:23 604:2 605:24 619:23 632:20 642:2 647:4 653:14 660:21 662:20 671:15 684:10 689:20 720:2 court 379:1,19 380:1 381:1 382:1 745:1,3 746:1 cover 484:6,13 536:5 675:9 706:2 covered 616:14 cpanatier 383:6 cralley 580:3 cralley's 569:25 create 666:1 created 529:6 626:7 credibility 487:18 691:5 criterion 447:6 critical 449:6 703:19 704:21 criticism 673:11 674:19,22 709:2,5 criticisms 477:13 487:17 criticize 508:10 564:4 criticized 644:20 644:22 645:1,3 critique 721:18 crmc 735:12 crocidolite 602:22 cross 493:11 554:19 555:8 556:2,23 557:1 crystalline 525:11 525:12 527:23 crystallized 456:20 crystals 521:24 523:9 525:1 cs 385:15,16 ctfa 450:16 452:19 483:1 489:25 492:24 549:5 581:25 591:5 626:23 627:1,19 627:23 628:4,12 628:15 629:10 659:4,14 660:22 660:24 661:5 663:15,25 679:16 681:10,11 691:21 697:16 701:19,19 701:21,21,23 702:3,3,6,18,23 703:10,19 704:21 705:2,14 711:18 712:9,18 713:4,13 713:23 715:14 716:3 717:1,5 741:15,19 ctpa 495:24 cubic 608:16,23 609:4,5 632:10 culture 444:14 cupboard 508:1 curiosity 387:19 current 489:25 533:12 613:5 616:18 633:4 634:20 641:23 666:24,25 706:4,5 708:10 currently 402:11 403:20 452:11 502:1 601:8 664:12 cyanamid 385:19 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [Cyprus - dept] Page 20 Cyprus 384:11 386:20 468:18 d d 386-22 434-14 437-16 654-14 699:23 728:1 dallas 383:5 danger 529:5 dangerous 388:3 418:6 500:11 501:22 509:20,25 571:21 621:20 dangers 525:9 daniel 384:3 daniels 380:10 381:10 382:9 383:19 386:10 549:4 darlene 380:4 dashed 470:20 data 411:20 535:4 552:14,15 603:17 607:14,15 631:20 639:10,21 660:17 686:8 687:16 688:1 708:17 709:9,13 database 716:18 date 387:4 390:15 394:25 398:20 403:1 425:11,12 461:23 466:23 496:5 497:20 504:4,5 551:15 625:15 651:1 664:19 671:23 724:24 744:13 745-21 746-3 dated U W ^ V V t 388-13 /C M J t X 389:8 393:11 430:2 436:5 451:20 478:11 487:25 505:24 510:14 542:9 551:25 598:15 630:9 710:16 dates 395:3,7 dave 485:2 david 380:3 386:24 day 379:11 559:5 683:18 719:11 726:23,24 746:22 days 524:15 540:20 552:2,25 553:15 555:3 557:24 562:20 566:2 612:23 715:25 716:24 717:3 dbr.com 386:14 dc 385:4 587:4 611:5 741:16 dd 594:14,16 595:6 616:3 737:7 738:11 deal 479:13,14 492:25 707:21 dealing 490:17 606:21 643:8 721:24 dean's 658:5 dear 434:6 552:12 587:17 638:16 685:25 719:21 death 513:3 debatable 690:2 decade 491:21,24 decades 506:23 537:18 573:24 december 448:21 516:10 653:24 658:1 697:22 703:10 704:11,13 739:20 740:6 741:20,24 decide 604:2 605:24 716:19 717:6 decided 387:24 614:24 725:14 decision 725:8 decrease 399:7,10 684:7 deeply 643:19 defendant 383:8 383:13 defendants 379:8 380:11 381:11 382:10 defending 614:18 defense 453:8 490:21 614:21 defensibility 530:23 deferment 661:5,7 defined 408:4,7,23 441:19 592:4 632:4 defines 679:24 defining 559:18 definite 553:8 definitely 447:23 538:16 definition 423:7 424:7 544:24 598:21 631:16 642:12 definitive 563:21 definitively 540:25 619:24 degree 416:4 686:4 deirdra 379:19 745:3,20 deleted 655:16 656:11 deliberately 399:19 409:17 demonstrated 474:23 538:17 demonstrates 510:24 denial 528:8 density 469:18 643:19 dental 573:16 dentons 386:16 dentons.com 386:19 denver 418:15 729:4 department 524:10 530:22 534:16 586:24 587:1,7 588:13 590:3,13 596:11 596:20 630:14 659:17,21 738:20 departments 587:8 deponent 744:1 deposit 471:20 deposition 379:10 387:3 487:5 727:2 744:4 746:3 deposits 476:8 480:10 depression 401:11 401:18 406:17 407:14 515:11 depressive 409:4 dept 736:22 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [describe - disadvantage] Page 21 describe 592:12 described 437:12 438:1 447:6 453:6 456:20 477:3 515:20 577:3,23 592:9 602:10 706:21 describes 523:5 description 388:21 437:18 439:23 440:16 576:16 577:1 728:9 729:2 730:2 731:2 732:2 733:2 734:2 735:2 736:2 737:2 738:2 739:2 740:2 741:2 742:2 743:2 designated 471:22 designations 405:12 desired 678:23 desk 487:3,7 488:25 536:6 desperate 614:16 despite 690:9 destroy 419:12,15 destroyed 420:25 421:5 destruction 419:5 420:5,10,15 detail 437:13 453:24 577:4 696:6 726:13 detailed 567:17 detect 486:17 550:13 583:25 601:11 602:2,11 602:20 680:19 detectability 553:10 623:21 detectable 449:17 455:11456:6,7,10 626:21 detected 459:17 486:4,7 546:21 623:23 671:4 700:6 detecting 587:25 detection 393:15 426:9,11,12 468:11,14 568:20 601:11,16,21 602:13 619:8 626:8,9,24 627:1 627:18 629:10,25 647:18 679:15,21 680:17 681:1,15 705:9 detects 680:22 determination 559:14 661:13 712:3 determine 413:25 420:24 428:1 438:14 446:8 550:13 615:2 determined 470:16 473:12 474:14 determining 686:25 688:6 689:7 703:18 712:19 dettre 415:16 develop 523:4 538:7 698:10,14 developed 397:14 401:20 541:16 623:18,23 639:7 639:22 698:8 702:24 developing 535:4 535:13 598:21 619:8 development 417:8 537:2 628:10 703:17 deviation 661:13 deviations 470:21 470:22 device 616:18 devote 670:17 dh 718:6 742:20 dialogue 718:6 742:19 diameter 447:19 632:22 diaper 499:25 502:19 512:19 733:3 diapering 502:25 508:1 diatomaceous 390:7 dictated 416:17 706:7 708:11 difference 504:22 505:6 different 408:12 408:24 412:9 413:7 432:25 438:13 466:14 470:23 474:22 475:25 504:22 521:18 524:24 548:25 554:9,9,14 555:17 556:16 597:20 600:14,15 600:16,18 623:25 631:13 637:15 643:4 648:20 652:2 663:15,21 676:2 677:19 699:10 702:22 704:6,17 718:18 721:9 differential 450:8 450:10 678:18 differentiation 694:13 696:8 difficult 515:12 diffraction 401:6 425:16 438:14 447:21 448:1 455:13,25 543:11 546:17 550:14,16 601:9 603:16 604:10 606:2 623:20 624:1 628:22 630:2 677:9 678:17 698:7 diffuse 575:13 diminishing 666:15 668:17 669:5 dioxide 678:19 direct 639:11 677:2 directed 542:16 658:9 672:17 directive 583:7 658:7 director 482:15 524:1 573:17,18 590:25 596:16 711:9 717:25 718:1 dirty 555:22,23 disability 576:15 disadvantage 701:20 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [disadvantages - dr] Page 22 disadvantages 700:22 disagree 423:4 disclose 593:2 724:13 disclosed 697:8 disclosure 599:22 discontinue 613:19 discuss 415:13 484:16 570:19 discussed 437:16 483:24 502:7,12 540:1 593:6 698:4 720:3 722:8 discusses 576:2 discussing 598:20 610:15 discussion 474:19 550:16 599:3 616:5 665:12,16 discussions 583:16 583:24 disease 525:21 526:2 530:5 534:19 537:17,21 538:6,14 574:23 577:15 diseases 528:14 537:11,25 538:7 dispersed 633:8 dispersion 461:24 dispersive 452:23 disproportional 475:14 dispute 490:2 574:2 disputing 685:15 distinct 474:21 distinctly 474:22 distract 508:22 distress 512:24 distributed 579:11 579:16 distribution 470:2 470:6 473:11 474:12,16 475:4 477:5 480:11 691:14,15,17 741:14 distributions 474:23 divided 392:22 division 380:1 381:1 382:1 389:12 482:12 558:20 618:24,25 619:6,7 641:19,20 660:1,2,2 670:4 dlaterra 384:6 doc 728:13 docket 380:6 381:6 382:5 dockyards 580:5 doctor 524:12,14 530:11 531:16 569:20 571:19 586:8 718:16 719:4,9 721:21,22 doctors 618:3 718:24 document 396:21 415:8 422:9 430:18 437:10 448:8 451:1,20 477:24 500:12,15 564:12,21 586:7 594:11 612:15,22 642:19 657:23 659:13 664:18 672:16 684:16 692:13 705:2,23 document's 460:7 documentation 650:6 documents 394:3 394:5 395:24 423:23 436:24 442:5 492:13 571:17 594:2 612:17 648:24 651:14 664:21 665:13 701:16 705:10 doing 417:22 419:11,24 451:2 491:19 554:5 561:24 576:4 581:2,10 597:16 609:12 611:24 622:24 627:14 643:21 645:8 646:19 648:12 649:9 650:20 680:24 684:22 696:6 706:18 707:7 dollars 634:22 635:8,22 706:18 dolomite 544:16 domestic 517:12 517:25 518:2,10 518:14 519:10 520:7 734:4,8 door 650:21 doors 636:17 doped 409:13,24 dosed 532:10,25 doubt 475:17 477:9 722:24 doubts 666:1 douglas 379:3 doukas 383:19 dozen 545:1 612:16 621:10 dozens 521:10 dr 379:10 386:24 388:10,13,24 390:20,21 413:3 419:1 430:24,25 444:11450:2 471:4 476:24 477:13 497:11 520:5 524:20 531:25 532:22 533:17,24 534:8 534:10 535:3 536:20 542:5 549:10 550:11,11 550:16 564:22 565:8,10,21 566:2 566:8 567:3,8 568:11,14 569:10 569:18,23,25 570:1,2,5,8,20,24 573:9,11 579:1 581:19 583:17,20 584:9,13 585:2 586:8,15,23 590:22 591:4,5 594:22 595:15,20 596:2,3,3,11,12,19 596:22,24 599:3,7 600:4 602:10 608:8 612:25 615:7 623:24 626:7 630:22 631:1,1 634:1,4 636:13,23 658:12 669:22 670:3,16 670:20,23 671:3,7 676:18 677:14 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [dr - employees] Page 23 678:7 679:6,11,18 679:22 680:3,9,14 681:5 685:21,22 685:25 690:9,9,18 692:21 693:2 710:13,25 711:5,9 711:16,21 712:2 714:22 715:2 716:15 718:6 721:7,7,8,22,24 728:3 735:18 736:4,7 746:4,20 draft 422:2,3,8,15 654:23,25 655:3 656:7 657:9 720:23 721:19 722:18,20 723:5 729:7 drafted 702:18 drafts 654:8 dragging 461:19 drastically 665:10 draw 483:16 drawing 639:9 dressings 603:8 drew 492:20 drinker 386:12 drive 385:14 386:8 386:13 dropped 481:19 481:20 drs 710:24 drug 469:18 558:21 659:17 714:1 dry 458:18 ds 404:14 409:5 682:2 dta 450:6,7,14 698:6 704:7 due 401:9 529:5 574:25 576:15,24 673:5 736:10 dunst 383:19 dust 500:5 525:20 537:1 574:23 575:10 577:13,15 665:19 dusting 512:5,19 608:13 665:6 686:9 733:18 dusts 575:12 dusty 509:25 dvd 681:2 _____ _ e e 383:1,1 384:1,1 385:1,1 386:1,1,3 496:14 546:2 728:1,7 e.g. 673:7 earlier 399:18 495:17 543:21 566:2 574:16,17 592:21 593:6 621:18 632:4 648:21 659:20 683:24 earliest 664:20 early 388:11 432:9 432:9 502:8 513:14 536:19 537:10 540:6 541:13,18 659:4 665:13 694:12,15 721:18 earth 390:7 easel 684:11,12 easier 490:17 eastern 460:17 603:8 easy 399:12 539:22 ec2n 379:17 echoed 565:11,22 566:9 economic 397:16 416:2 417:6 663:5 ed 632:22 edax 452:23 editing 423:14,25 edition 511:9 536:19 editor 721:3 editorial 690:17 edits 423:15 education 586:24 587:2,7 588:13 590:4,14 659:18 659:22 736:22 effect 527:21 531:2 666:8 effective 409:5 636:14 effectiveness 407:13 effects 526:21 531:3 538:15 580:12 595:17 677:1 efficacy 666:1 effort 686:3 egilman 386:24 egt 515:4 eiermann 389:12 692:18 eiermann's 693:4 eight 406:6 464:19 464:20,21 466:25 either 529:1 593:6 725:18 electron 401:5,6 413:23 425:16 438:13,14 446:22 447:17 448:1 453:2 456:3 479:20 485:22 486:23 541:2,13 541:16,17 550:14 550:15,15 560:25 615:7,9 627:24 628:1,16,19 629:2 632:17,25 644:24 678:13 700:19 704:8 705:13 elegance 639:11 element 539:21 elements 485:4 eleven 434:7 elicit 610:25 644:9 645:12 647:25 eliminate 641:22 elizabeth 384:16 ellis 383:9 elongated 589:2,6 589:21 email 482:9 488:25 489:12 496:18,22 499:7 emails 495:14,16 732:9,19 embarrassing 709:14 embed 523:13,15 emmett 444:11 emphasized 543:9 employed 577:9 577:12 employee 563:19 688:15 745:12,14 employees 538:1,5 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [enclosing - exhibit] Page 24 enclosing 485:10 ended 649:8 endorse 584:23 628:12 ends 482:10 engaged 397:12 576:14 engineering 560:1 england 510:8 511:10 595:10 622:18,22 733:16 enlist 492:24 493:2 ensue 431:25 ensure 433:13 489:24 557:1 646:4 ensuring 399:14 582:9 enter 527:24 entered 576:15 entire 618:16 641:14 662:17 664:12 entirely 553:3,20 556:13 557:4,15 709:23 entitled 396:24 425:1 510:16 512:2,4 513:23 574:22 587:18 600:24 608:12 622:5 environmental 469:10 478:25 522:6 580:11,13 596:16 720:25 epa 538:11 epidemiologic 570:16 epidemiologist 595:16 epidemiology 580:12 equal 455:7 471:10,10 equipment 602:24 602:25 equivalent 723:18 equivocal 689:6 erature 483:2 erin 386:17 erin.carpenter 386:19 errata 746:1 errors 415:1 esdp 603:6 especially 513:7 esq 383:3,4,9,14 383:20 384:3,3,8 384:14,19 385:3,3 385:8,13,13,22 386:3,7,12,17,22 essentially 525:19 527:22 546:19 establish 419:5 420:5,10,15 679:25 established 407:18 407:21 408:21 441:24 451:11 establishes 641:20 establishing 639:7 639:11 estimate 447:11 506:17 estimated 434:16 estimation 686:6 estrin 591:4 660:9 660:21,21 703:10 710:14 715:2 716:16 740:8 741:23 et 379:7 380:10 381:10 382:9 474:15 510:17 536:15 559:19 706:22 eternity 607:22,24 etheridge 380:3,4 746:3 evaluate 496:13 691:4 698:5 699:13 evaluated 388:24 416:22 evaluating 391:24 415:14 439:1 662:16 evaluation 461:23 496:9 661:18 663:5 672:17 732:19 event 530:23 672:22 674:2 events 665:8 eventually 529:9 702:18 everybody 587:12 669:23 691:16 evidence 443:2 446:20 460:14 466:9 502:24 526:10,14 531:1 538:12 593:22 evidently 553:10 624:2 exact 533:1 564:16 568:14 573:2 574:7 594:2 exactly 629:21 684:15 709:7,17 examination 387:6 389:22 390:22 391:1,12 425:1,15 446:19 591:6 728:4 729:9 examine 447:4 452:12 606:22 examined 438:12 446:7 469:17 577:22 examines 596:5 examining 439:3 670:19 example 399:16 637:19 exceed 439:15 exceeding 522:2 excellent 570:8 exception 521:21 744:4 excerpt 498:6 excerpts 536:16 734:14 excess 634:21 exclude 401:21 executive 573:11 574:1 exhaust 576:19 exhibit 388:7,8 392:19,19,20 396:22,23 406:13 413:1,2 414:21,22 417:18 418:12,13 421:20,21 424:21 424:22 427:17,18 430:11,12 433:23 437:4,5 438:6 444:6 445:24 448:11451:19 459:4,5 461:11,12 465:7,8 469:1,2 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [exhibit - face] Page 25 478:3,4 482:6,7 483:20,21,23 488:21,21,22 495:9,10,15 498:8 498:9 499:16,17 500:20,21 503:25 504:1 505:16,17 510:4,5 511:23 513:18,19 520:2,3 524:7,8 534:4,5 536:3,4 542:3,4 545:13,14 548:12 551:23,24 558:15 558:16 562:19 565:4,5 566:19 569:7 573:6 574:15 578:23,24 581:16,17 586:20 586:21 590:19,20 594:9,10 598:7 600:21 608:3 610:13 612:19,21 615:25 616:1 622:3,4 630:5,6 633:21,24 637:5,6 638:10,11 640:8 642:16,17 648:16 648:17 651:7 653:22,23 657:24 657:25 659:11,12 664:10,11 669:15 669:16 672:2,3 675:8 681:19,20 685:19,20 691:13 697:13,14 703:14 705:21 710:5,6 713:18 715:22,23 717:19,20 719:15 728:9,10,14,17,20 728:22 729:2,3,7,9 729:12,15,17,20 730:2,3,7,10,14,18 731:2,3,8,13,19 732:2,3,7,7,8,8,9 732:11,15,19,22 733:2,3,5,8,11,13 733:13,14,18,23 734:2,3,7,11,14,16 734:20 735:2,3,7 735:10,13,17,21 736:2,3,7,10,14,17 736:21 737:2,3,6 737:12,16,21 738:2,3,7,11,15,18 738:22 739:2,3,7 739:11,14,17 740:2,3,8,13,15,19 741:2,3,7,11,14,19 741:22 742:2,3,8 742:12,15,18 743:2,3 exhibits 640:16 exist 523:16 543:5 640:16 644:11 645:14 647:1,2 648:2,3 existence 485:3 530:5 exonerate 599:10 599:12 exonerating 599:7 expect 453:18 493:18 511:5 538:6 574:7 601:18 604:20 638:6 650:10 expectant 499:4 expectation 486:18 509:3 expected 643:5 644:9 645:12,18 645:21 647:25 686:19 721:3 expedite 658:15 expend 634:23 expenditure 635:20 expenditures 634:21 666:13 667:18 668:3 expensive 684:3 experience 491:1 494:4,18 631:11 experiment 399:13,18,24 400:6,15 407:3 419:12,13,24 420:13,18 421:2,5 433:5 503:8 608:13 626:10 experimental 409:10 470:18 experiments 400:7 419:4,17 433:18 548:6,7 590:16 620:14 626:12 683:24 685:10 expert 497:8,14,17 536:22 expertise 491:1,12 493:19 494:18 637:17 638:1,7 experts 490:18 492:9 496:12,15 496:20 571:24 expires 746:25 explains 709:17 explanation 442:23 555:5 exploiting 425:18 exploratory 573:16 expose 411:25 exposed 526:6 536:24 537:12 exposure 537:18 537:22 538:13,15 575:11 576:16 577:2 580:8,13,14 580:17,21 631:12 631:21,22 665:19 exposures 538:17 expressed 614:13 658:6 expressing 526:20 686:14,15 extend 531:3 extent 427:12 438:15 471:8 525:9 539:2 565:13 588:14 external 506:6 extra 519:22 extraneous 466:9 extrapolate 687:16 extrapolated 687:25 688:3 extrapolation 687:13 723:1 extrapolator 565:17 extrapolators 565:16,23 566:10 extremely 401:10 401:21402:2 438:22 526:6,12 eyes 506:8______ f_______ f 385:19,19 710:22 face 493:8 502:2 502:14,18 506:9 512:23 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [faced - fibroplastic] Page 26 faced 529:1,3 facilities 687:15 fact 399:17 412:20 460:22 477:4 483:7 493:18 521:4 522:9 535:16 539:25 543:9 547:13 551:4 572:1 593:5 617:10 653:16 666:21 705:2 709:12 720:12 factor 434:22 686:19 692:9 693:2 factories 538:1 692:15 factory 403:16 537:12 575:20 577:17 factual 525:4 fails 450:5 fair 392:16 467:7 468:17,17 490:8 490:22 494:25 519:7 577:18 612:8 662:23 666:9 703:8 708:24 725:16 fairly 480:11 491:20 false 624:12,18,19 familiar 458:13,20 458:21 483:22 497:23 537:25 family 498:15,20 732:24 733:8 far 414:13 450:5 522:25 602:4 616:23 633:5 671:2 677:7 708:16 fast 406:13 453:7 fatal 510:16,24 511:15 733:14 father 504:15 fault 507:5,6 faults 624:12 favorite 510:22 fax 484:5 732:11 fb 739:17 fda 388:10,21 389:13 390:16 392:2,9 393:15 431:6 448:15 449:2 450:2,24 542:7,16 543:2 544:4,19 545:4,4,8 548:14 552:2 553:1,15,17 558:18 562:21 566:21 567:8,21 570:9 581:23,25 582:10 584:13,14 584:18 585:2,24 586:14 587:1,3,6 587:23 590:22 592:22,24 593:7 593:15,17 596:22 597:1 613:11 615:4 618:17,24 619:6 641:15,19 642:12 651:20,24 652:20 659:5,21 661:15 664:1,6 670:4,18,22 671:11,20 673:8 674:8 685:22 686:12 687:8,22 688:5,13,20,22,25 689:1,3,17 691:22 691:23 692:22 693:8 698:17 702:6,13,19,21,24 703:1,20 704:22 706:22 710:21 713:23 714:1,13 714:16,23 715:2 715:10 716:7,15 716:17,20,24 717:13 728:10,13 730:14 734:17 735:10,23 736:18 740:8 741:16 fda's 390:22 615:2 651:14 663:16 695:19 february 415:5,13 478:11 482:10,10 482:25 487:25 496:11 518:13 608:8 691:21 728:24 732:12,17 741:17 federal 389:24 391:13 472:1,9 587:21 665:10 740:10 feed 462:11 463:7 463:16 464:2 feel 396:4 416:14 493:16 505:6,12 603:18 615:6 675:4 704:17 feeling 530:25 603:19 613:22 feels 632:9 fellow 493:23 572:13 622:13 679:11 felt 571:19 577:2 614:19 633:7 670:16 718:21 fiber 398:14 399:1 405:11,17,18 406:7 438:1 439:9 446:8 472:1,9,10 472:17 475:4,22 561:1,4,18 617:9,9 618:18,20,22 619:16,21 632:15 640:1 641:16 642:1,6,11 684:14 686:7 728:14 fibers 390:8,17 392:2,9,13 406:6 422:18,19 428:10 428:11 434:15 435:25 437:19,19 437:20,21,22 439:12,12 444:21 445:7,8,9 447:10 447:18,22,24 457:3,9 471:6,7 472:13 473:6 476:4,25 481:15 539:13 580:4 584:1,4 609:9,10 609:14 614:20 621:5 632:10,22 633:12,13 646:13 647:19 655:7,18 655:21 656:1,8,13 656:21,24 670:10 686:20 690:14 692:20 695:20,23 696:1,4 697:5 720:6 724:23 fibril 690:12,13 fibrils 473:20,23 474:1,5 475:17,22 477:8 562:2 fibroplastic 528:15 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [fibrosis - following] Page 27 fibrosis 530:8 575:13 fibrous 408:10,24 409:18,25 411:3,9 411:21,22 420:24 421:3 426:18 434:13 446:23 447:6 448:1 456:20,22,23 457:2 462:1 468:7 468:8,16 567:10 567:22 619:2 631:21,24 632:2,4 633:6,10 641:22 641:25 646:14 647:18 649:22,23 676:23 684:16 696:11 712:19 724:7 field 570:15 589:5 fields 479:14,15,18 479:23 556:7 fifth 385:23 fifty 539:4 figs 394:12,14,16 figueroa 384:14 386:17 figure 435:18 470:15 473:12 474:13,23 547:22 610:4 709:25 figures 693:13 file 421:10 728:22 734:5 739:8 files 514:10 545:9 fill 423:7 424:7 filled 603:9 filling 605:9,10 filter 463:16,21,22 464:2 final 409:6 422:10 463:23 494:10,12 589:16 620:21 628:7 655:10 657:10 finally 513:2 698:22 financial 683:5 financially 745:13 find 390:16,17 405:22 414:17,19 426:8,12 430:2,3,8 438:23 444:20 457:21462:13 463:7,25,25 464:9 514:19 521:18 545:1 566:5 581:10 592:1,3 604:8 606:1,3,8 621:24 622:24,25 623:3 637:22,25 701:5 707:23 744:5 finding 562:10 567:25 568:3 findings 401:8 521:11 567:18 666:6 finds 392:2 435:24 473:6 547:8 fine 396:10 506:19 549:25 575:13 584:18,20 648:10 648:10 696:6 fines 439:23 finger 505:8 fingers 492:7 finish 481:21 578:10,12 652:8 finished 401:22 402:3 403:4 676:5 676:9 fioa 728:13 firm 520:23 521:16 firms 610:25 first 389:1,3 394:8 397:25 403:12 424:3 430:22 431:25 438:17 441:6 443:18 451:1 453:8 455:25 456:6 462:8 464:17 465:17 467:14,14 486:4 497:6,10 502:6 506:16 509:19 514:12,18 523:5 527:8 548:23 557:21 617:20 619:3 628:5 629:6 633:16 635:6 642:7 653:9 656:7 673:14,25 678:9 701:13 714:6 717:23 five 430:3,3 435:8 440:17 445:15,17 462:14,20 463:5 466:25 472:18 512:17 513:2 547:4 548:18 551:21 591:12 600:23 622:13 fix 448:14 461:18 flag 389:4,4 499:20,21 flagged 391:11 flakes 504:24 639:7 flakey 563:22 564:5,12 572:14 574:5 flat 525:12 fleet 386:25 flipped 591:22 float 404:19 462:11,13 463:7 463:16,21 464:2 floated 481:7,10 floats 589:11 floor 384:4 461:19 florham 386:13 flotation 397:13 397:14,16 399:13 404:15 406:17 407:8,13,15 415:6 417:11,20 427:10 432:17,25 447:7 543:2 568:21 620:6 643:11 672:7,14,18 682:5 682:14 683:20 728:24 740:20 flying 574:8 focus 714:16 fold 641:7 foley 384:19 386:7 foleymansfield.c... 384:21 386:9 folks 542:10 593:20 610:21 646:22 follow 494:15 496:22 629:21 695:2 followed 535:7 550:16 613:9,12 623:20,25 following 419:4 497:8 543:10 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [following - gavin] Page 28 546:4 550:12 552:15 595:14 630:22 648:18 665:7 698:2 700:22 follows 446:12 582:1 588:7 food 469:18 558:21 587:19,20 618:24 619:6 641:19 659:17 714:1 foolish 692:25 foot 583:5 608:16 608:23 609:4,5,10 footnote 717:15 force 496:14 703:16 ford 667:11,12 forefront 534:20 foregoing 744:3 745:5,8 foreign 658:7 forensic 485:19 487:18 form 396:18 408:2 409:18 448:3 456:20,22 523:17 525:14 529:14,24 539:24 588:9,15 588:19 616:19 618:7,20 619:2 631:23,24 641:21 649:23 696:19 706:21 708:2 forming 617:9 forms 408:10,24 462:1468:7,8 601:12 602:3,21 618:22 formula 431:23,25 514:12,18 formulas 514:21 formulation 529:8 530:10 formulations 526:23 528:18 529:2,10 forward 607:13 611:16 forwarding 483:2 found 392:9 394:15,16 401:7 405:8 411:23 412:5,11413:14 413:18 416:19 426:15,20,23 434:13,15 437:20 439:12 470:1 472:25 486:23,25 514:12 541:6 543:11 545:5 547:2 548:17 552:23 554:21 556:12 558:1 567:11,17,22 568:3,10 583:20 592:4,6 593:15 605:21 617:9,11 624:3 670:10,12 671:8,9,10,19 684:19 690:1,12 foundation 711:10 founder 527:7 founders 527:15 four 428:15 430:2 440:17 445:8 462:14 466:25 487:9 519:9 532:17 540:20 549:12 557:18 577:8 fours 708:22 fragments 641:25 642:11 fragrance 686:2 framework 469:15 644:18 672:13 franchise 620:5 634:14,16 frankly 684:2 frazier 383:14 414:23 481:19 fred 387:12 547:21 677:7 free 396:4 422:18 493:16 543:12 620:22 655:7,18 656:1,8,13,20,23 657:9,10 freedom 452:12 616:23 friday 622:18 714:1 friend 643:18 friendly 656:21 front 393:8 418:19 422:9 452:5 504:14 580:1 592:17 607:20 650:23 frost 383:9 386:12 396:6 445:12,19 445:21 505:20 511:20 572:7 574:10 640:25 709:22 710:1 725:17 726:22,24 froth 397:13 frother 409:4 full 392:23 489:9 542:16,20,22 567:17 590:24 592:22 694:25 fuller 534:8 536:15 581:19 594:19 658:3 734:11 735:21 736:3,17 738:7 740:3 fully 669:25 fun 479:16 furor 529:7 further 401:14 432:18 616:25 650:1 678:8 680:12 745:12 furthermore 526:18 621:5 future 444:12 651:2 672:22 674:2 716:19 fyi 651:13 ________ g g 434:14 524:20 546:2 658:2 672:13 692:1,7 705:23 711:9 740:3 741:14 gaffrey 383:20 425:11 496:5 625:15 671:23,25 gallagher 448:17 gamble 385:17 gang 654:5 gassettes 458:12 458:12,17 gather 522:20 gavin 423:23 520:5 534:7 549:11 569:9 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [gavin - good] Page 29 594:11 ge 630:10 738:18 gear 521:17 gee 668:5 geiger 561:22 562:1 gene 561:22 general 438:20 453:11 526:9,19 527:4,8,9,10 529:13 538:19 596:9 599:14 658:12 689:15 694:17,19 generally 414:10 475:16 600:16 638:2 generate 607:14 generated 708:17 generating 607:15 generation 709:13 geologist 408:4 722:3 geology 722:1 george 423:24 697:17,23 714:5 716:4 german 518:20 germans 517:17 getting 412:17 517:19 518:17 548:10 577:15 603:17 628:3 725:18 gi 437:16 445:7 give 392:13,22 396:8 484:17 485:11492:5 493:20 508:21 529:25 535:11 559:15 583:9 592:22 601:2 602:1 624:12 637:24 638:5,25 673:19 715:6,11 716:17,25 717:1 given 401:8 494:19 515:19 522:20 535:16 637:20 639:19,21 640:1 647:16 695:11 716:15 720:4 724:2 gives 422:13 434:9 455:8 604:3 605:25 628:1 giving 437:9 638:24 674:15,15 719:23 glass 653:5,9,11 glaxosmithkline 385:11 gleaned 706:24 go 389:6,7 390:13 390:13 392:24 393:7,19 395:3 396:4,6 397:5,21 398:11 401:17 406:12 409:10 411:16,16 426:1 427:19 428:14 431:9,9,11,11 437:6 445:25 446:18 448:12,24 449:16 450:1 452:5 453:24 454:3 456:1,17 459:16 461:17 462:5 467:16,24 471:2 472:22 475:11 476:12 478:7 479:15 480:5,21 482:5 488:23 492:4,14 495:4,4,15 496:22 499:18,21 500:3 500:23 511:24 514:21 526:17 531:16,20 534:6 534:24,24 535:15 538:10 541:24 543:7 545:8,19 548:22 550:8 559:21,25 560:16 561:21 575:2,23 576:10 582:21 583:15 585:1 586:22 588:24 596:1 604:1,8 609:24 611:6,9,16 611:20 612:16 616:24 618:15 619:12 623:11 630:20 633:25 641:3,9,17 642:22 648:10 650:1 652:6 660:13,14 661:3 676:18 677:12 679:5,9,10 680:7 682:11 684:11,11,12 691:25 695:6 706:25 711:12 712:14,16 714:17 goal 652:25 653:5 goes 519:21 526:16 527:20 580:23 597:18 632:19 660:10 712:1 going 395:7 403:6 411:9 412:9 414:16 417:11,20 420:1,2 423:1 427:15 431:9 435:10,21 436:20 441:18 442:19 443:20 458:13 461:18 462:6 463:20 472:16 478:6 481:13,14 482:4,5 488:3,15 502:14,19 508:10 512:8 526:13 529:12 535:25 539:16 567:6 584:17 588:3 597:22 603:22 611:7 622:18 630:7 631:18 632:21 633:3 637:18 638:4 646:10 647:20 648:9 652:7 653:16 661:22 662:21 666:4 667:7 677:14 681:17,17 684:12 692:25 693:10 695:6 698:18,20 698:21 704:12 706:17 708:21 709:22 713:11 717:4,8,10 719:14 723:7,19 golden 643:18 good 387:8,9 414:10418:10 434:16,20 507:1,9 508:12,24 509:2 544:25 555:12 558:7 562:9 566:11,15 583:14 590:7 603:17 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [good - hazard] Page 30 618:10 652:14 667:9 669:14 698:20,21,23 699:5,6 704:12 707:11,14 709:17 715:19 725:17 goodman 600:23 606:17 607:5 737:16 goods 633:8 gotten 640:3 goudie 549:11 630:10 669:25 gouverneur 598:11600:13 government 587:8 grab 507:14,24 508:18,20,24 726:19 grabbing 508:20 grade 469:16 516:22,23 544:10 600:17 655:6,12 656:16 666:7 gradient 643:19 gram 392:6,9,14 392:17 662:17 695:21,24 gram m ar 668:5 668:12,20,25 grand 384:20 grandchildren 527:14 grandsons 527:6 gravometric 678:17 gray 470:19 great 479:13,14 539:1 716:25 greater 414:23 416:4 454:21,22 455:4,7 457:22 471:9,9,10 472:4 472:12,17,18 525:8 672:23 674:2,11 greatly 471:19 greenstone 383:3 greenwood 386:22 greer 385:13 greetings 484:24 grid 479:21 grieger 549:14 550:5 730:3,7,10 grind 565:24 597:12,16 groseclose 384:19 grossly 539:17,19 groth 718:6 742:20 ground 409:12 457:15 grounds 456:23 457:5,19 group 385:17,18 385:20 428:9 438:17,18 495:13 496:11,13,18 497:15 595:13 603:15 636:13 674:8 686:6 groups 412:1 438:13,16 582:2 673:6 674:7 growing 673:5 grunt 482:19 guarantee 589:5 589:21 guarantees 589:1 guess 520:15 600:11 637:9 guidance 494:16 guy 429:21 494:1 564:9 582:14,15 585:24 597:13,21 639:16 669:20 693:8 699:22 715:14 723:2 guys 415:1419:16 432:13 486:22 489:11,17 520:9 561:9 570:23 616:10 635:12 698:17 714:17 715:10 716:24 726:20_________ ________h_______ h 728:7 735:13 half 397:14 414:11 456:7 519:10 545:1 592:7 621:10 634:21 635:8,21 679:13 679:15 680:10 726:20 halfway 400:21 560:19 ham 429:1 hamer 699:23 hammond 580:11 580:16 684:20 hammondsville 409:12,20 410:1,6 410:19411:11,24 412:6,12,16,23 443:23 446:24 447:4 684:17 730:11 hamsters 532:10 532:25 711:19,21 hand 430:14 492:7 497:19 hand's 509:8 handed 388:20 handful 492:3 handing 547:25 handles 658:21 handling 458:8,18 458:24 538:2 hands 507:13 512:20 handwriting 422:23 423:6 handwritten 481:8 504:5 608:5 737:21 happen 399:24 530:14 556:6 650:24 happened 388:1 555:2 556:8 558:11,13 574:18 725:5 happening 725:10 happens 406:25 407:7 621:24 651:2 656:20 happy 445:2 517:16 518:25 hardy 379:16 383:14 harmful 457:10 485:3 500:5 527:1 618:18 641:16 harmless 538:18 harris 385:8 harrisbeach.com 385:10 hat 556:25 hawkins 384:13 hayward 485:7 hazard 397:17 402:12 403:21 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [hazard - house] Page 31 528:1 531:14,17 533:13 595:8 hazardous 422:18 422:20 656:1 hazards 511:15 522:4,14,21 524:23 570:7 580:5 head 455:23 512:21 598:9 715:3 headed 573:16 736:14 heading 499:22 532:22 658:23 665:1 705:22 headquarters 657:21 health 397:17 402:12 403:21 469:10 478:25 499:8 522:6,14 569:20 570:2,4,5,7 571:20 586:24 587:2,7 588:13,20 590:4,13 595:8,17 659:18,21 687:13 718:10 721:1 736:22 hear 456:5 662:5 heard 468:23 569:21 570:22 607:5 662:5 669:19 hearing 565:11,22 566:9 736:21 hearings 653:25 654:12 739:18 heavily 595:16 702:10 heavy 643:19,24 heinz 389:12 heinze 630:10 738:18 held 570:1 713:20 help 468:25 493:17 613:11 637:22,25 638:19 642:22 646:13 helped 639:24 667:10 hematite 390:6 544:14 henderson 384:8 henry 384:9 herewith 687:3 herford 379:3,3 384:17,22 385:25 386:10,15 746:3 herrington 385:2 hey 544:19 556:11 625:20 698:17 hide 549:20,21,22 550:2,2 hiding 656:25 high 419:3 427:4 439:12,13 482:21 494:19 521:17 526:6,12 544:10 550:22,23 551:12 573:13,19 574:4,8 600:6,10 655:12 656:16,21 657:13 666:7,13 667:16 667:18 668:3 718:4 higher 434:22 626:25 646:21 655:21 656:24 703:21 704:23 highest 417:1 highgrade 639:12 highlight 416:12 426:3 473:10 522:17 526:17 528:13 534:15 535:2 575:2 576:1 576:10 613:8 619:12 634:12 711:13 714:18 highlighted 389:21 496:2,3 567:7 713:25 highlighting 416:3 highlights 679:8 highly 471:20 601:24 602:23 hildick 423:24 520:5 524:20 534:8 536:15 549:11 569:10,24 594:12 598:14 610:20 630:11 711:5 734:3,11 736:3 737:6,12 738:3 hire 488:3 597:22 hired 487:12 491:6 492:9 532:20 hiring 535:22 564:24 historic 523:1 historical 430:18 513:24 514:8 729:15 733:24 historically 521:23 history 517:20 518:24 577:6 619:5 hmm 392:12 440:23 441:15 442:18 453:10 462:23 468:5 494:23 498:18 504:17 573:7 663:24 680:8 695:5 hoagland 383:19 hoaglandlongo.c... 383:22 hoc 698:8 hold 507:14,25 508:18,20 531:10 531:21 633:23 698:17 708:17 holdings 385:18 385:19 home 493:17 510:23 homogenous 663:1 honest 490:4 635:19 hope 570:9 654:16 hopkins 379:10 387:3 497:11 728:3 732:15 744:3,12 745:5 746:4,20 horrible 579:7 hospital 595:15 711:2 hostile 631:3,4,4,5 hot 504:16 hour 445:12 630:7 709:23 726:21 hours 512:17 513:2 house 628:11 637:16 733:8 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [household - incorrect] Page 32 household 485:5 houston 383:10,16 hptylaw.com 384:16 hq 737:14 human 534:18 hundreds 464:22 632:16 hurst 386:3 hurt 403:6 husband 699:18 hutchins 636:23 hydroxl 412:1 hygienist 479:7 hypotheses 400:12 hypothesis 400:13 424:16,17 647:4 648:3 675:1,6 hypothesize 543:19 hypothesizing 687:11 hypothetical 419:16,20 533:21 647:3 651:22 652:4,13 687:19 687:20 694:4 706:19 hypothetically 417:23 606:7 i i.e. 471:6 613:23 ian 550-5 583-24 iarc 495:12 496:9 496:12,19 497:15 732-19 idea 422:13 488:17 529:13 532:4 537:7 599:15 601:3 610:24 669:11 707:12,14 724:25 ideal 723:24 identifiable 642:4 identification 388:8 389:25 391:21 392:20 396:23 405:17,18 413:2 414:22 417:18418:13 421:21424:22 427:18 430:12 433:23 434:9 437:5 438:6 439:7 444:6 445:24 448:11451:19 452:6 459:5 461:12 465:8 469:2 475:25 478:4 482:7 483:21 488:22 495:10 498:9 499:17 500:21 504:1 505:17 510:5 511:23 513:19 520:3 524:8 534:5,17 536:4 542:4 545:14 548:12 551:24 558:16 562:2,15,19 565:5 566:19 569:7 573:6 574:15 578:24 580:3 581:17 586:21 590:20 594:10 598:7 600:21 608:3 610:13 612:21 616:1 618:7 622:4 630:6 633:24 637:6 638:11 642:17 648:17 651:7 653:23 657:25 659:12 664:11 669:16 672:3 675:8 681:20 685:20 691:13 697:14 703:14 705:21 710:6 713:18 715:23 717:20 719:15 730:19 identified 446:12 476:25 533:13,16 549:16 600:5 618:20 619:14 identifies 476:15 476:21 477:2 543:22 547:17,18 595:20 596:4 677:19 identify 439:5 540:3,25 554:2 618:11 646:13 649:22 identifying 533:21 identity 596:6 ifs 652:10,11 ii 527:9 image 582:6 imerys 384:12 386:19 478:19 immediate 658:15 immediately 416:15 512:23 537:22 impact 651:10 682:17 impair 634:13 implication 453:19 618:21 implies 499:2 imply 406:11 499:9 im portant 489:24 494:13 540:2 634:8 impossible 665:20 impractical 665:17 impression 417:13 417:15 improve 480:2 572:20 626:9 683:9,15,17,19 685:7 698:15 improved 417:7 634:11 improvement 620:6 improvements 634:10 inadequate 677:11 677:22,23 include 410:20 499:6 528:1 564:9 620:5 included 402:5 544:20 628:19 702:21 711:19 includes 544:24 including 403:11 513:9 526:19 528:14 536:13 563:25 587:14 591:14 600:23 inconceivable 530:6 inconsistent 501:11 incorrect 588:6 590:6,8 723:7 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [increase - interest] Page 33 increase 528:16 595:7 665:5 673:11,20 674:18 increased 666:12 668:2 increasing 530:6 665:7 increasingly 513:1 independent 487:12 488:4 490:16 491:17 637:8,14,20 721:22 723:18 independently 492:4 index 601:25 indicate 497:16 516:2 524:25 546:19 indicated 398:14 401:12 446:22 571:1 575:4 631:20,21 indicates 470:21 539:5 indicating 611:10 611:21 indication 563:12 689:14 indications 553:8 indicator 453:7 individual 478:22 480:10 494:24 495:2 563:17 575:18 578:15 595:20 610:2 658:13 719:4 individually 380:8 381:8 382:7 385:16,19 441:19 individuals 526:19 586:1 595:9 induced 575:13 industrial 428:22 428:23,25 429:2 429:15 441:7,12 441:20 442:14,20 442:25 443:9,11 443:19 444:1 458:7,9,18,20 459:25 460:11,18 460:23 461:2 466:4 469:25 479:7 570:4 665:20 industry 449:9 479:5 487:22 490:25,25 493:8 493:11 571:23 574:25 576:25 578:17 614:21,24 626:22 654:1 664:12 702:10 713:10715:1 716:20 736:11 739:19 inexact 572:14 574:5 infant 512:16,20 512:22,23 infants 538:13 718:25 infer 529:20 643:11 inferior 505:9 inflammatory 525:18 528:15 influence 726:1,4 info 573:4 inform 598:17 information 499:5 499:10 514:9 518:7 525:4 535:13 542:16,20 542:22 567:16 568:9 581:5 590:25 592:22 638:25 639:10 640:2 643:5 646:7 646:9 647:17 649:22 658:2 682:13 706:23 707:20 732:23 740:5 informed 591:4 603:1 613:18 infrared 628:16 629:2 704:8 ingredient 515:17 515:19 ingredients 587:20 inhalation 506:10 512:5 524:23 525:10,15 530:9 538:13 665:19 711:20 718:20 733:19 inhale 502:19 503:21 510:1 526:22 inhaled 500:6 501:23 503:15 inhales 513:8 536:25 inhaling 522:21 initial 463:15 535:6 553:14 initials 451:23 initiate 706:6 708:11 726:5 initiated 416:15 595:13 initiating 535:12 initiatives 499:8 injurious 588:19 innocuous 545:2 inorganic 534:17 535:5 inquiries 526:19 526:25 528:3 658:9,14 inquiry 524:19 inside 397:6 425:14 650:7 inspected 419:3 installation 580:20 instance 486:16 540:6 690:9 instances 568:20 718:24 instant 443:4 institute 418:23 560:21 595:11 673:8 674:8 718:9 723:18,23 instituted 432:16 institution 479:8 724:1 instrument 679:21 insure 432:18 658:15 integration 635:15 635:25 636:5 intellectual 387:18 intending 597:14 intensive 425:15 663:11 interest 380:8,9 381:8,9 382:7,8 385:18,20 598:21 599:4,6 644:15 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [interest - jnjaz55] Page 34 646:1,6,18 647:13 647:22 648:11 672:20 interested 549:8 582:8 614:18 676:25 745:16 interesting 676:24 interfere 638:4 interference 638:6 interior 630:15 738:20 internally 626:18 international 496:8 interpretation 454:3 611:18 612:11 635:5,11 708:23,24 intro 510:20 introduced 632:25 684:7 introduction 397:5 398:20 407:11 526:15 invented 444:12 541:22 inventions 573:23 investigate 545:9 644:14 645:25 investigated 531:9 investigating 485:2 621:19 investigations 554:6 investigator 699:13 investigators 665:24 699:9 708:18 invoice 638:4 involve 665:17 involved 461:1 466:4 488:14 493:18 530:7 595:16 616:11 628:9 745:13 involvement 614:25 involves 623:24 involving 529:1 iodine 643:20 648:23 irm a 382:3 iron 453:13 irregardless 693:2 irresponsibility 508:10 irresponsible 508:7 irritation 522:1 525:3 irving 536:22 isaac 385:13 isolation 534:17 issue 400:4 440:12 487:3 490:22 492:15 494:24 536:1 581:8 607:2 607:2 612:19 640:6 643:9 657:16 684:4 707:9 720:6 721:2 721:2 724:5,6 issues 492:25 494:11,16 642:22 658:24,25 659:1 664:25 italian 394:11,13 394:15 395:17 504:23 514:25 515:4,9,12 516:6 516:11,15 517:7 517:12,24 518:14 518:17,21 519:9 519:15,17,22 543:2 622:25 623:22 728:15 italians 517:14 518:25 italy 517:21 items 485:7_____ ______________ J _____________ j 383:9 418:23 476:7,14,15 481:4 j&j 413:4 415:19 448:18 450:20 452:7 455:21 497:8 508:2 511:5 529:24,24 542:10 542:10 551:19 557:12,24 560:11 561:1,12,13 568:14 581:12 600:17 605:7,9 627:24 628:9,14 628:15,25 630:1 631:2 632:25 637:8 638:24 643:8 644:18 646:19,20 647:16 649:12,17,21 650:13 651:24 671:16 682:14 689:1 690:14 692:5 697:23 702:20 716:4 720:4 721:13 722:20 724:2,22 725:1,14,15 726:4 728:22 730:18,21 731:8,13 732:23 736:8 j& j's 573:16 647:5 650:20 662:3 j4 456:7 626:23,24 627:1 628:18,22 629:4,6,9,19,24 681:10 713:4,13 j4-l 452:19 455:11 455:24 698:22 701:10,13 jack 386:12 536:6 734:14 j.ack.frost 386:14 jackson 385:14 january 398:21 461:15 499:20 510:14516:12 598:15,16 684:13 721:2 731:11 737:19 ja r 555:25 jars 554:18 jbp 733:11,24 jenkins 733:20 jerome 418:24 596:15 719:17 jerry 719:21 jersey 380:1 381:1 382:1 383:21 386:13 jm 562:13 639:20 644:5 645:7 648:24 650:3,9 710:14 720:5 724:10 jm 's 648:7 650:5 jnjaz55 729:8,14 731:12 733:25 734:6,13,22 735:9 736:20,24 737:11 738:17,25 739:16 740:7,12,14,18 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [jnjaz55 - johnson] 741:6,18 742:11 743:6 jnjl4t5 732:14,18 jnjmx68 728:16 728:19,25 729:6 729:11,19,22 730:5,6,13,17 731:7,17,18 734:15,19 735:20 735:24 737:20 738:14 739:6,13 739:21 740:22 741:10,21,25 jnjnl61 728:21 729:16 730:9,23 731:22 732:6,9,21 733:10,12 734:10 735:6,16 736:6,16 737:5,15,22 738:6 738:10,21 739:10 741:13 742:7,14 742:22 job 379:25 603:1 698:20,21,23 699:5,6 jobs 577:13 john 379:10 387:3 391:6 450:2,23 451:2 497:11 644:13 669:17 670:3 703:10 720:24 728:3 732:15 733:15 744:3,12 745:4 746:4,20 johns 549:4 558:19 560:7,11 561:14,17 562:16 611:7 638:18,25 642:22 643:3,5 647:11,16,24 648:22 649:12,14 649:24 650:12,14 650:18 724:21 725:6,13 726:6 735:10 739:4,11 johnson 383:8,8 383:13,13 385:6,6 385:25,25 386:15 386:15 387:11,12 388:17,17 390:16 390:17 392:9 393:4,4 394:4,4 397:8,9 399:6,7 401:2,2 402:1,1 403:5,5 408:7,7 410:17,17 412:16 412:17 416:16,16 417:19,19,21,22 418:3,3,7,7,9,9 421:22,22 422:17 422:17,20,20 424:15,15 425:9,9 427:9,9,20,20 429:7,7 432:3,3,16 432:16 436:10,10 436:16,16,19,19 436:23,23 437:1,1 437:10,10 440:12 440:12 441:3,4,7,7 441:11,11,21,22 441:24,24,25 442:1,5,5,9,9 443:9,10 449:6,6 449:12 450:11,11 451:12,12 452:5 454:15,17,17 460:7,8 461:13,13 466:2,2 476:4,4 477:24,24 482:13 482:13,17,17 489:8,8 491:10,10 491:11,11,20,20 491:24,24 492:8,8 492:13,13 493:1,2 493:3,3 494:2,3,5 494:5,6,7,15,15 496:25,25 497:21 498:14,15,19,19 499:11,11 500:9 500:10,17,17 501:2,2,7,7 503:13 503:13,20,20 504:3,3 505:24,24 506:23,23 507:5 507:19,19 509:3,3 509:11,11,19,20 510:6,6 511:13,14 513:13,13,20,20 514:10,10 521:20 521:21 526:20,24 526:24 527:4,11 529:18,18 530:12 530:12 531:8,8,21 531:21 532:6,6,19 532:19 533:8,8 535:21,21 537:9,9 537:16,16 538:19 538:20,24,24 539:1,1,6,6,12,12 540:16,16 541:5,5 541:11,11 542:7,7 543:1,1 547:7,7,20 547:20 549:8,9,10 549:10,16 550:21 550:21 551:5,5 553:15,15,17,18 553:18 554:2,2 556:10 557:12,12 558:1,1 559:22,22 562:6 564:11,22 564:22 566:2,3,7,7 567:24,24 568:21 Page 35 568:21 571:10 572:3,4 573:12 574:1,1 581:25,25 582:6,6,8,8,11,11 582:14,14,15,15 582:19,19 583:1,1 584:20,20,23,23 585:22,22,25,25 587:10,10 588:12 588:12 589:3,3 590:5,5 592:20,21 593:19,19,21,21 594:7,7 597:4,4,22 597:22 599:16 600:11,11,14,14 605:18,18 606:13 606:13 608:13 609:2 610:9,9,14 610:15 611:14 613:13,13 616:3 617:20,20 618:1,2 620:23,24 626:14 626:17,17 627:17 627:17 632:1,1,20 632:20 636:2,2 637:10,10 639:16 639:17,22,22,24 639:24 642:19,19 642:20,21 645:3,3 646:7,7 650:8,8 655:25,25 659:14 659:15 666:21,21 666:22,22 667:1,1 667:15,15 669:4,4 669:10,10 670:11 670:11 679:18,18 681:13,13,21,22 685:6,6,21,21 686: 1,1,12,12 687:6,6,22,22 688:14,14,15,16 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [johnson - know] Page 36 689:15,17,17 690:5,5 692:2,2 693:13,21,21 695:14,14,22,22 697:8,8 699:23,23 700:8,8,11,11 701:6,7,18,18,22 701:22,23,23 702:5,5 703:9,9 704:1,1 705:7,8,8 705:16,16 711:10 711:10 714:5,5 717:5,5,16,16 719:10,10 721:20 721:20 724:7,7,16 724:16,17,17,18 724:18 725:8,8 746:3,3 johnson's 392:9 449:12 452:6 454:15 464:16 476:5 477:1,19 481:2,16 484:12 485:8,23 486:6,24 488:6,8,14 497:22 500:22,24 501:15 501:21 504:23 505:7 507:6 513:23 514:8,14 529:14 532:11 549:17 553:17 556:11 562:6 564:11 571:10 573:12 583:4 591:6 599:16 608:14 609:2 611:14 626:14 633:16 672:19 682:6 683:10 689:16 690:10 693:14 695:13 705:7 733:5 johnston 594:14 594:16 595:6 654:5,14 737:7 738:11 joining 636:12 joint 616:16 jordan 379:19 745:3,20 joseph 386:22 journal 469:10 481:18 510:9,11 511:10512:3 691:9 720:25 733:16 jpmorgan 383:15 jromano 385:24 judge 508:9 judgement 711:24 julia 385:22 july 427:20 430:2 438:9 439:21 513:23 518:9 539:11 542:9 545:17 547:7 551:20 552:8,18 552:21 565:6,8 566:21,22,23,24 567:1 569:16 579:16 675:21 681:21 710:16,21 729:13 734:18,21 735:19,23 736:5 741:9 742:10 june 539:11 541:6 672:4 junior 607:6 justifying 656:4 ________ k k 385:19,19 470:24 476:7,14 476:15 481:4 kagan 383:4 kathleen 383:14 kazan 386:22 kcratv 488:3 kcratv3 483:25 kcratv3's 484:25 keep 401:13 402:2 421:13,13 501:25 502:17 506:6,9 507:1 508:7,25 597:5 653:6 kennedy 653:25 654:12 739:18 kentucky 573:11 kept 439:3 507:20 507:24,25 512:20 key 421:9 439:1 460:12 kfrazier 383:17 kids 507:24 kill 513:9 kind 400:15 491:2 597:7 603:19 612:18 640:17 646:8,9 652:8 655:22 658:20 665:12 672:12 702:22 723:13,22 kinds 490:19 554:14 king 385:22 kingdom 379:17 kleinfeld's 430:25 knew 442:15 465:17 520:20 529:18,24 593:1 632:1 689:17 699:12 knock 650:20 know 387:23,25 389:12 392:8 396:5 418:2 419:19421:17 423:19 424:12,15 424:17 425:21 433:10 442:16,19 443:6,14,18,23 444:1,3 446:15 448:14 457:21 458:23 460:10,17 460:24 461:7 462:19 463:4 464:11465:17,21 468:11,15 473:3 476:14,24 479:17 480:8 481:10 487:20 488:14 492:8,10,20 493:16 498:2,4,24 503:4 505:9,12 506:12 507:11 508:11,14,21,23 508:24 509:24,25 514:23 516:20,25 517:3 519:24 525:14 529:23 536:24 542:25 543:16,21 544:4,6 545:5 546:9 547:1 547:20 551:4,18 554:11 555:4,15 556:14 558:3 561:4 564:6,18 565:18 566:1 567:10 568:13,13 568:17 571:22 579:7 583:7,12,13 583:14 589:1,9,13 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [know - level] Page 37 589:16 590:12,15 591:22 594:17 597:10 599:18 606:17 608:21 613:14 615:20 617:10 619:5 620:14 621:14 625:18,19 626:14 630:7 634:20 635:9,18 637:22 642:20 643:8,14 645:17 647:20,21 648:11 650:5,18 651:3 652:1,22 654:11 656:15 660:7 662:15 668:5,23 671:7 679:9 682:16 684:10 687:19 693:22 694:1,10 694:11 695:1 698:16 699:14 701:4 703:5,7 705:12 708:20 709:2,5,7 711:4,5 715:3 720:10,11 720:15,20 721:25 725:9 knowing 652:25 knowledge 402:24 479:6 487:23 501:14 525:3 528:25 531:12,13 532:3,4 533:12 539:4 540:12 605:18 653:6 676:22 known 506:23 529:10 555:5 569:19 644:11 645:14 647:2 648:2 665:25 693:1 724:13 knows 507:19 583:10 693:8 konigsberg 384:2 kram er 562:24 735:13 krause 418:23,24 719:17 721:24 722:10 743:3 kretchmer 596:15 597:14 kslaw.com 385:24 __________ 1_________ 1 380:6 381:6 382:5 476:7,14,15 476:21 481:4 546:2,2,5 550:18 lab 448:19 452:11 484:14 485:16 487:12,17,20 488:4 554:16 555:8,12 557:20 694:25 695:3 label 477:25 501:15,21 733:11 labeled 459:18 472:5,7,13 631:2 633:7 labeling 506:3 labor 679:24 laboratories 555:7 573:17 laboratory 485:7 490:23 554:6 556:24 559:13 618:11 labored 513:1 labs 637:21 lack 479:6 577:1 700:23 lag 537:14 lakeside 386:8 lakeysha 385:13 385:15 langer 550:11 551:4 562:5,10 565:10,21 566:2,8 596:2,3 631:1 721:7 langer's 550:17 562:1,14 721:4,14 721:22 language 458:2 708:2 lanzo 384:6 lapierre 731:4 large 390:5 693:2 largely 504:22 larger 475:14 538:15 662:22 lastly 475:12 666:11 late 494:22 541:18 lately 522:21 latency 537:7,9 631:15 latent 537:2,6,11 laterra 384:3 latest 434:8 laurent 384:17 law 380:1 381:1 382:1 530:21 law.com 385:15 385:16 lawer 583:13 lawyers 583:12 lb 446:13 leaders 518:23 leading 534:22 595:13 leak 383:4 learned 558:10 630:21 684:5 learning 644:5 leave 445:11 507:14 678:22 lee 415:17,19 418:18 423:24 490:17 491:15,19 492:9,14 658:2 672:13 691:14 697:24 705:23 714:5 716:4 729:3 740:3,19 741:14 742:3 left 387:11 length 471:9,10 474:7 575:11 626:2,2 lesson 517:20 558:10 letter 429:17,21 441:16,22 484:14 484:21 538:11 551:8 586:23 592:20,24 654:13 660:7,16,18 681:21 685:21 687:9 719:22 720:22 721:3 723:16 724:2,4 728:20 729:12,17 729:20 730:3,7 731:8,13 735:7 737:3 740:8 743:3 letterheads 692:5 letters 396:25 690:17 level 434:16 438:23 469:25 571:5 572:2 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [level - looking] Page 38 623:21 627:24 628:2 644:3 646:21 653:17 679:24 681:15 686:7,13 688:19 692:14 718:21 levels 401:10,14 401:22 402:2 427:3 449:17 456:6 485:3,9 521:18 526:6,12 568:25 665:19,20 703:22 704:24 levy 384:2 levylaw.com 384:5 384:6 lewin 388:13,24 391:18 583:17,20 591:5 596:24 670:8,15,20 671:19 lewin's 388:10 389:25 390:1,20 390:21,22 391:21 391:24 392:1 670:23 671:3,7 library 511:9 lid 507:6 lieben 580:7 lies 709:12 life 532:10 537:3 538:14 light 414:1446:21 550:13 583:25 601:22 628:23 677:10,24 722:8 likelihood 665:7 king 416:19 limit 426:9,11,12 468:11,14 528:17 601:11,16 602:13 626:8,9,25 627:1 627:18 629:10,25 661:21 665:10 679:12,15,21 680:17 681:1 687:14 limitation 624:4,8 624:9 625:2,4 limitations 665:18 limited 683:24 limits 553:9 679:1 Unda 386:25 495:19,21 497:3 Une 435:25 445:1 445:3 453:8 497:6 619:17 701:18 705:12 725:19 746:5 lines 612:16 655:21 656:24 680:7 linings 556:21 liquids 643:19,24 st 480:18 644:13 645:24 660:9 705:15 714:6 736:14 listed 439:10 454:12 678:9 691:16 744:5 listening 552:14 listing 579:3 lists 390:2 497:10 691:15 t 483:2 literal 607:24 terally 492:6 509:8 538:2 595:2 literature 509:12 510:7 522:4,10 523:1 524:23 525:13 526:4 538:1,5 564:7 570:14 577:2 593:25 706:24 litigation 529:1 530:7,13,16 little 390:12 393:7 435:3,23 444:13 467:16 502:1 505:7 508:12,21 535:2 536:5 544:11 548:16 551:18 554:10 556:22,25 558:17 573:4 574:16 582:18 633:15 647:3 659:20 670:17 672:5,25 676:22 709:22 live 425:22 584:11 625:22 lives 683:17 lkagan 383:6 11c 385:19 498:17 499:1 Up 379:16 383:9 383:14,19 384:2,8 384:13 385:2,22 386:2,12,16 located 595:14 logical 525:5 london 379:17 long 479:24 491:1 537:8 555:16 556:21 571:15,16 583:3 586:13 636:24 670:22 longer 494:17 528:3 618:23 655:19 656:11 longo 383:19 look 387:24 404:1 420:2 423:9 428:14 430:22 448:7 458:15,15 462:8,11 470:12 475:24 480:17 485:5,11 486:3,3,6 503:2,4 504:9 515:15,23 531:15 532:11 533:15 539:10 547:1 548:9,23 577:5,6 579:24 583:17 621:14 625:20 626:3 629:5 632:5 640:5 643:9,18 648:22 649:5 650:5 651:13 653:17 664:1,19 669:4 677:2 693:8 695:8,8,10,10,19 696:13 711:4 715:10 720:18,20 721:17 724:25 726:8,9 looked 426:7 437:8 465:13 479:1495:13 512:13 564:21 589:10 620:9 629:7 648:19 653:2 664:21 670:23 683:23 699:10 looking 395:13 406:14 413:22 414:13 423:22 433:1447:15 462:22 463:2,12 466:20 470:12 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [looking - marked] Page 39 479:20496:19 502:24 515:11 521:9 546:9 557:12 589:10 594:24 597:11 599:12 601:17 615:10 622:1 644:19 645:8 647:24 701:3,14 721:9 724:7,22 looks 395:4 413:6 417:10418:15,18 419:13 422:8,10 432:5 466:13 489:11 497:22 516:12 519:8,10 519:14 534:12 554:11 599:25 624:22 639:25 714:9 loose 696:5 loosely 563:15,16 lord 711:9 lorena 482:11,24 loretz 495:19,21 495:22 497:3 los 379:1 384:15 384:20 385:23 386:18 lose 614:16 lot 412:10 494:18 507:4,23 513:8 518:24 522:20 544:14 581:2 588:3 604:6,7,23 604:24 605:2,8,19 605:22 661:20,21 661:23,23 662:2,6 662:17 673:1 676:14 677:20 lotion 507:2 lots 508:17 544:11 544:18 548:25 549:1 591:6,11,17 605:9 662:2 loud 500:3 love 667:11 lovelace 673:9 loves 667:12 low 401:10,21 402:2 421:9,13,13 438:22 439:11 571:4 572:2 600:11 lower 403:10 414:13 434:22 601:19 602:13 626:8 644:3 688:20 Isavorgnan 385:16 lucy 385:13 699:17 lung 529:2 580:2 lungs 500:6,11 501:23 502:24 503:4 525:18,23 525:24 526:2,22 532:11 575:13 577:15 580:18 609:24 736:15 luzenac 478:15,17 478:22 lying 512:18 m m 3R4-1Q46Q-4 474:24 476:7,9,14 481:4,5 600:23 606-17 607-4 681-22 737-16 m.d. 733:20 machine 576:18 745:7 maggiore 550:11 magnesia 460:17 magnesium 412:1 magnifying 653:5 653:8,11 magnitude 398:3 427:4 434:17,21 435:2,7,8,11,14,15 435:22 mail 496:14 maimon 384:3 main 383:10 494:1 major 649:13 650:18 694:14 making 514:14 537:12 607:12 725:18 malik 385:3 man 429:23 management 542:15 636:20 706:2 742:4 manager 403:14 403:16 681:23 manager's 389:11 391:4 mandated 469:25 mandatorily 457:12 mandatory 455:14 455:17 456:15 457:24 458:3 mann 482:14 484:6 489:1490:7 493:1 496:24 732:12,16 manpower 603:1 mansfield 384:19 386:7 manufacture 531:10 721:20 manufactured 539:6 591:18 manufacturers 738:4 manufactures 610:22 manufacturing 576:14 manville 549:4 558:19 560:8,11 561:14,17 562:16 611:7 638:18,25 642:22 643:3,5 644:13 645:24 647:12,16,24 648:22 649:13,24 650:12,14,18 724:21 725:7,13 726:6 735:10 739:4,12 manville's 649:14 marc 383:20 732:11 march 418:22 465:9 671:24 705:24 713:21 715:24 717:21 729:5,5 731:16 740:17 742:6,13 742:16,21 m argaret 733:19 m ark 484:6,22 marked 388:8 392:20 393:5,20 395:2 396:23 400:20 411:17 413:2 414:22 417:18418:13 421:21424:22 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [marked - medical] Page 40 426:2 427:18 430:12 433:23 437:5 438:6 444:6 445:24 448:11 451:19 459:5 461:12 465:8 469:2 478:4 482:7 483:21 488:22 495:10 498:9 499:17 500:21 504:1 505:17 510:5 511:23 513:19 520:3 524:8 534:5 536:4 542:4 545:14 548:12,22 551:24 558:16 562:19 565:5 566:19 569:7 573:6 574:15 578:24 581:17 586:21 590:20 594:10 598:7 600:21 608:3 610:13 612:21 616:1 622:4 630:6 633:24 637:6 638:11 642:17 648:17 651:7 653:23 657:25 659:12 664:11 669:16 672:3 675:8 681:20 685:20 691:13 697:14 703:14 705:21 710:6 713:18 715:23 717:20 719:15 732:7,8 733:13 m arket 431:24 571:3 666:7 marketing 416:13 416:17,18,19 536:11 marks 415:17,19 681:22 741:7 m artin 381:3 maryland 710:23 massive 448:3 511:15 523:17 540:5,7 master 573:10 match 522:19 material 403:4 418:7 434:14 437:22 439:10 485:12 491:2 492:5 604:8 606:4 606:12,15,22 618:18 619:2 621:19 641:16,22 684:3 materials 398:2 402:11403:21 428:1432:19 456:2,2 485:6 554:14 570:18,19 598:21 618:7,20 639:12 641:23 677:1 712:8 mates 518:22,23 math 390:12 609:12,19 mathematician 608:21 m atter 384:6 418:3,5 460:22 490:11 529:22 matthew 385:8 maybes 652:10 mayor 597:14 mba 636:6 mccarthyist 597:7 mcclain 386:22 mccracken 386:2 mccrone 400:23 400:24 405:12 413:3 424:24 427:20 429:17 433:25 435:24 438:8 441:12 444:17 446:3 449:22 459:7 460:3 550:6 561:22 562:14 591:14,23 601:21 602:5 603:16,25 618:9 619:24 693:13 694:23 699:17,18,19 700:4,13 728:20 729:12,17,20 730:3,7,10 731:3 mccrone's 562:14 mckinney 383:4 md 524:11 718:3 722:2 733:15 736:12 742:20 mean 399:3 400:9 433:9 435:14 483:14 498:23 502:22 506:25 517:18 534:25 543:5 561:14,20 582:11,25 587:5,5 616:20 637:13 667:25 673:24 679:13 684:1 meaning 454:12 454:22 457:2 625:3,3 626:8,25 650:24 663:1 708:19 meaningful 559:15 meaningless 607:14 means 401:5,21 407:19 408:2 409:14 420:19 421:13 434:21 435:3,7 446:15 447:13 450:8 451:15 462:2 467:9 516:25 525:20 528:19 535:19 537:6 542:22 561:4 565:13 574:23 596:6 601:16 604:9 616:21 632:6 635:18 649:8 661:22 663:14 667:17 675:22 691:3,17 706:8,14 712:5 713:8 meant 435:11 573:1 624:11 measure 602:11 602:20 measured 474:8,9 measurement 664:7 media 490:18 493:4 medical 502:24 512:4 521:2,5 522:3 523:23 524:1,10,12,14 526:3 579:3 717:25 718:1 733:20 736:14 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [medically - microphone] Page 41 medically 523:3 523:25 524:4 medicated 412:18 medicine 510:9 511:10 733:16 medium 439:12,16 meet 665:20 meeting 415:5,12 417:5 422:4 496:11 542:6 544:8 552:2,13,25 553:15 555:3 557:23 558:22 559:2,4 560:8 562:21 566:20,24 570:10,11 581:23 582:1,2,10 585:22 598:8,18 599:5 610:15,22 613:7 613:17 614:12,22 670:16 675:12 691:22,23 697:15 710:10,10 713:20 714:1 716:3 728:22 734:12,17 735:11,21,23 736:19 737:13 738:4 741:4,15,19 742:9 meetings 706:22 meets 534:10 654:16 member 493:3 498:19 659:15 701:25,25 732:23 members 496:14 598:18 710:23 716:18 memo 415:4 417:10461:13 513:20 523:22 534:7 542:5 543:23 565:7 566:25 569:9 572:22 582:12 586:19 592:21 593:5 600:22 610:14 613:3 614:3 616:2 622:10 625:8,8,20 630:9 634:2 640:5 642:25 669:17 691:14 703:9 706:1 707:24 708:4 717:21 724:9 728:22 729:3 730:18 732:15 733:23 734:3,7,11,16 735:10,13 736:3 736:17,21 737:6 737:12,16 738:3,7 738:11,18,22 739:3,7,11,14,17 740:3,15,19 741:3 741:7,11,14,22 742:3,18 memorandum 514:13 524:25 548:13 581:18 735:3 memorial 543:1 memory 502:4 533:25 586:10 memos 564:15 572:16 574:6 607:20 615:22 men 643:4 m enkart 703:11 741:23 mental 596:12 mention 540:3 576:13 593:14 613:12 mentioned 491:15 515:17 531:5 540:1 556:8 574:17 621:9 717:23 merewether 580:1 mesothelioma 523:14,16 580:7,9 580:22 messrs 415:15,17 met 415:17 418:22 458:11 516:23 534:12 564:22 566:2 587:3 597:25 669:20 710:21 721:25 method 389:23 393:15 448:25 449:7 452:19 453:6 461:25 468:12 469:18 470:17 601:10,21 602:2,5,10,17,18 603:16,17 606:4 615:6 618:9,9 621:24 622:1,22 623:7,13,22 624:4 625:2,4,19,21 626:18,21,23 627:8,23 628:4,10 628:12,15 629:9 629:14,24 644:9 645:3,12 647:5,24 651:11,15,18,20 652:2 661:14,15 663:16,21 670:18 686:5 688:19 698:11 701:8 702:18,19,20,21 702:23 703:1 704:5 705:4,14 712:19,23 713:4,5 713:6 740:9 methodologies 540:25 694:15 methodology 455:24 550:9 587:25 613:11 619:8 698:8 712:3 methods 432:25 446:19 456:3 602:19 620:10 621:21 663:6,13 672:14 677:8 678:22 679:2 681:15 686:25 688:6 689:7 692:9 698:14,15 702:11 702:15 703:20 704:2,2,6,8,22 705:9,11,15,17,18 740:20 mg 390:8 mgaffrey 383:22 mgroseclose 384:21 microbes 555:8 microbial 603:11 605:11,14,16 microbiological 637:20 microbiology 555:6 556:9 637:21 microgram 670:11 microns 452:16,24 471:9,10 microphone 461:18 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [microprobe - mines] Page 42 microprobe 550:15 microscope 413:23 414:1 448:25 479:21 505:6 577:23 584:6 619:15 632:5 642:5 698:6 698:7 microscopes 556:1 microscopie 601:22 microscopical 461:23 microscopist 491:7 596:4 601:24 615:4 microscopy 388:25 389:23 391:13 401:6 425:16 438:13 446:21,22 447:17 449:3 452:8,15 453:2 456:3,4 466:20 468:13 485:23 486:23 541:3,14,16,17 543:10 550:14,15 560:12 583:25 592:6 595:12 615:3,5,7,9 627:25 628:1,16,17,19,23 629:2 632:10,16 632:17,21 633:1 633:12 644:24 670:18 677:10,25 678:14,18 696:7,7 700:19 702:21 704:8 705:13 730:22 mid 380:6 381:6 382:5 middle 660:17 661:3 middlesex 380:1 381:1 382:1 mill 458:8,10,12 458:17,17,23 466:24 468:18 miller 415:13,18 415:23 416:1 446:3 616:8 676:18 677:18 678:7,21 679:7 681:22 711:1,16 711:22 712:2,17 730:11 731:9,14 741:7 millers 526:5,13 574:19 578:6 millette 731:3 milligram 390:18 392:3 661:19,23 662:16,21 milligrams 392:6 milling 577:17 million 404:9,12 404:18,20,23 462:19,21 463:4 464:12,12 465:1,2 608:22 609:3 634:21 635:8,21 millions 608:23 706:18,18 millman 736:12 mills 576:6 minatorily 455:22 456:11 mind 566:17 722:19 723:4 mine 394:13,15,16 395:17,19 400:5 409:12 410:3,4,7,9 410:10,13 412:16 428:17,22,23,24 428:25 429:1,2,4 441:22 442:25 443:17,17,23,24 446:4 459:24 460:18 591:18 598:10 600:13,13 616:17,21,22 617:3,7,14 635:8 635:12 640:21 655:6,12,17 656:8 656:12 657:6,8 677:4 mineral 380:9 381:9 382:8 390:4 395:13 401:19 409:19 410:1 411:4,10,21 447:21 461:22 493:18 520:24 521:1,5 522:8 546:18 547:17,18 554:10 611:8 678:24 684:17 722:16,17 731:6 mineralogical 452:8,15 453:6 490:21 522:25 730:22 mineralology 490:19 611:10,16 611:22 612:3 614:5 minerals 384:11 386:20 397:1,7,12 399:6 401:20 402:18 403:11,14 407:12,14 408:12 408:24 411:23 415:14 425:18 432:23 433:4,14 436:11,12 438:9 441:3,14 442:8 444:18 446:20 448:16 452:13 454:24 459:7,21 459:24 474:20 522:21 544:14 545:1 550:13 553:9 554:15 555:25 588:15 589:13 616:6 617:9 618:22 633:10 636:1,25 639:8 643:6 644:10 645:13 646:22 648:1 672:20 673:15 677:12 681:23 682:13 724:14 728:18 730:16 731:10,15 738:12 741:8 miners 410:15 526:5,12 574:19 578:6 mines 418:23 425:8 432:17 441:8 542:11 543:23 545:17 548:17 551:19 554:5 558:2,6 560:20 576:6 600:14 611:2 613:6 614:12,23 616:11617:21,22 617:25 636:1 637:4,7,10 638:13 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [mines - nashed] Page 43 638:25 639:19 642:21 644:13 645:7,24 646:5,6 646:13 648:6,12 649:16,21 650:3,9 650:25 719:17,24 720:3 721:13 722:1 723:17 724:20,20 725:7 725:13,25 726:5,9 minimize 532:2,7 533:8 538:16 709:12 minimum 521:11 528:18,23 531:4 632:11 mining 410:17,18 425:22 436:11 531:10 539:3 577:17 598:19 635:2 657:9 minor 390:6 544:14 546:20 minus 434:24 minute 396:8 minutes 396:7 445:15,17 559:2 560:8 561:11,13 713:19 742:12,15 mis 679:25 misconstrued 638:21 639:8 misread 680:2 misrepresenting 480:10 539:18 missed 680:12 mission 534:17 mississippi 385:14 misunderstanding 693:4 mixed 396:17 mixing 576:18 577:9 mixtures 470:18 mmaimon 384:5 mmm 392:12 440:23 441:15 442:18 453:10 462:23 468:5 494:23 498:18 504:17 573:7 663:24 680:8 695:5 mmwr.com 386:5 mobile 499:6 molnar 510:17 512:11731:9 733:15 mom 693:8 696:18 moms 499:4,10 694:6 money 634:23 635:7 667:16,21 668:8,14 669:6 706:3 monitor 601:10 monitoring 593:20 593:23 600:25 601:3 737:17 monseau 484:6,7,8 484:22,24 732:11 montgomery 386:2 month 499:4 510:25 512:5,16 539:11 540:15 543:21 548:16 551:5,18 553:14 557:23 658:5 733:18 monthly 546:6,12 547:4,6 548:18 553:7 months 465:12 497:24 701:13 moran 383:19 morning 387:8,9 548:2 556:19 620:10 moshe 384:3 mother 512:18,20 692:25 696:10 697:10 mothers 526:22,25 695:16,22 mount 430:24 534:2,3,10,20 536:22 550:11 631:1711:1 mouth 501:25 502:2 508:16 move 607:11 673:15 674:9 704:1 738:23 moved 521:17 570:4 moving 618:25 636:17 641:19 mowatt 419:1,1 mquirin 385:10 mt 595:15 630:23 mullen 651:8 739:14 mullen's 652:19 multiply 392:10 462:20 463:5 mums 508:21 museum 514:11 mute 570:23,23 myers 384:17 697:20 n n 383:1 384:1 385:1 386:1,12 398:3,4,7,7,15 401:12,15 404:17 404:22 405:13 406:2 409:3 415:6 415:15 416:2 417:1,11 433:2,2 546:2 672:8,18,21 672:21,25,25 673:15,16,18 674:1,10 675:3 682:5,8,9 728:1,23 n.w. 385:4 nader 667:6,9 name 403:5 461:7 478:18 495:20 497:10 520:16,19 527:8,8 546:1 569:21 583:4 666:21,22,24,25 669:19 670:5 692:3 744:12 745:20 746:3,4 named 514:4 679:11 699:22 710:25 names 497:9 596:15,19,22,24 nashed 423:23 542:5 549:10 567:3 579:1 581:19 586:8,15 586:23 589:20 590:3,22 594:19 599:3,7 600:5 608:8 612:25 630:11 651:8 654:4 658:12,21 685:22 687:10 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [nashed - number] Page 44 734:16 735:21 736:17,21 737:3 738:7 739:14,17 741:11 nashed's 569:10 594:22 nathan 736:12 national 483:4 570:3,6 673:8 674:7 718:9 nature 475:17 477:9 621:4,5 638:20 naval 580:5 near 475:11 502:13 504:5 512:25 634:19 necessarily 407:24 410:4,7 494:12 515:8 541:3 566:15 650:13 689:24 706:15 necessary 479:15 687:1 688:7 689:8 necessity 416:14 673:10 674:17 need 396:3,4 401:21402:1 443:14 445:13 531:20 540:3 563:13 571:19 612:15 625:14 629:5 630:8 637:18 650:20 653:17 659:7 668:14 672:22 674:2 679:9 704:11 721:18 needed 666:14 667:22 668:4 needing 572:20 needle 462:2 473:3 504:25 505:3 521:24 523:8,9 525:1,11 needles 472:5 473:2 476:4,21 481:15 523:13,19 523:20 540:20 541:7 needs 528:23 662:22 706:23 negation 528:3 negative 593:20 624:12,18 631:6,7 neither 413:15 466:10 561:8 601:23 neoplasia 580:15 580:17 neoplastic 528:15 528:19 neutrality 416:3 neutralize 708:17 never 400:4 408:20 427:10 429:14 450:16,18 458:11 468:23 483:7,12 502:23 507:24 519:2 522:2 528:25 563:11 566:17 577:13 581:1,13 581:13,13 592:4 605:7,19 607:5 626:10,18,19 636:4 650:3 669:19,20 689:21 690:6 692:3 693:21 721:25 724:18 725:5 nevertheless 586:14 610:2 681:10 719:8 new 380:1 381:1 382:1 383:21,21 384:4 385:9 386:13 392:22 396:25 398:2 403:2 406:17 407:13 425:17 431:1 432:17 469:17 499:3,10 510:8,18 511:10 533:25 542:15 576:7 577:24 595:14 596:16,17 597:14 598:10 610:23 613:19 657:18,21 658:9 663:21 666:6 672:14 722:15 728:17 733:16 740:20 newspaper 632:7 733:8 734:14 newspapers 536:17 594:1 nicholsen 630:23 nine 440:9 464:1 466:25 niosh 673:9 674:8 718:7,9 nj 384:12 noise 570:22 nominate 496:15 nominations 496:12,20 non 410:15 456:20 486:17 490:18 496:10 539:24 540:4,19 541:7 543:12,16,22 544:2,18,20,24 554:10,13,15 557:6 638:21 681:18 689:25 nonoccupational 580:12 nonregulatory 471:18 noon 482:1 normal 424:1 485:8 521:18 635:14 normally 447:4 north 380:7 381:7 382:6 northern 577:24 norwood 613:4,9 614:13 norwood's 615:3 nose 501:25 502:3 notary 746:21,24 note 737:21 noted 672:19 711:20,22 notes 418:14 630:16 697:15 729:4 735:21 741:19 742:9 november 393:11 394:25 444:7,13 444:17 590:21 648:20 654:13 719:16 720:22 731:11 737:4,10 743:5 ntp 483:2,3 number 398:11,13 411:17 420:4,14 420:23 431:18 445:8 449:16 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [number - okay] Page 45 452:14 459:13 475:14 493:20 533:1 535:14 561:25 583:15 588:24 595:9 596:1,10 597:21 601:6 611:6 616:14 618:5 640:25 641:3 660:12 665:9 671:8 683:24 692:13 694:12 720:19 726:10 numbered 744:3 numbers 390:1,2 391:22 numerous 599:15 nurses 618:2 ny 384:4 385:9 _______ o_______ o 476:1 Oakland 386:8 obituary 573:5 736:7 object 557:5 585:25 588:21 681:17 objected 717:16 objection 586:16 702:5 objections 521:1,6 522:8,13 585:5,13 585:18 588:25 725:18 objective 529:22 obligate 716:16 717:12 observations 575:5 observed 427:3 453:12 462:1 468:7,9 observer 505:5 obtained 447:22 461:24 678:16 obundy 384:16 obvious 608:20 obviously 387:23 516:23 522:12 528:1 558:10 621:3 626:11 651:23 719:6 occasionally 489:19,20 526:18 619:13 642:3 occasions 524:24 occupational 577:6 687:13 718:10 occur 410:1,3 411:3 456:21 525:5 535:11 537:21 539:22 665:8 occurrence 580:19 occurs 409:19 411:10684:16 October 446:2 451:21 591:23 638:15 640:7 643:1 651:1 697:4 729:18 736:23 739:5,9,15 odd 388:1,6 494:4 556:16 577:12 oddly 660:6 offensive 562:10 offer 397:15 497:8 offered 497:14 offering 442:21,23 offices 610:24 official 564:11,13 686:8 687:14 712:24 oh 391:23 414:25 481:20 566:23 575:25 617:2 625:13 639:5 640:10 678:16 721:17 ok 493:17 okay 387:8,17 388:15,19 389:19 390:11,24,25 391:2,8,9,21,23,25 392:5,16,18 393:9 393:10,18,21 394:1,7,23 395:7 395:15 396:20 397:20 398:10,12 398:18 399:5,23 400:1,17,18 402:8 402:16,21,23 403:9,17 405:6,10 405:16 406:15,20 406:22 407:10,16 407:21 408:1,11 409:1,9,23 410:8 410:22,25 411:6 411:19412:8,11 412:15,25 413:6 413:25 414:15,20 415:3,10,22,25 416:9,24 417:24 418:11,21420:12 420:21 421:7,16 421:22 422:1,7,13 422:22,25 423:4 423:12,21 424:5 424:11,19 425:4 425:13,25 426:6 426:17,25 428:20 429:20,25 431:4,8 431:12,16 432:4 433:21 434:4 435:20 436:18,22 437:3,25 438:4,11 438:25 439:6,19 439:25 440:8,20 441:10 442:12 443:5,13 444:4,10 444:16,24 445:3,5 445:11,16,20,22 446:5,17 447:2 448:6,9,14,23 449:15,21,25 451:17 453:4,20 454:3,20 456:15 456:17 457:8 459:3,11,15 460:1 460:10,16,20 461:3,5 462:4 463:19 464:5,15 464:20 465:5,11 465:15,20 466:12 466:18 467:19 468:3,21,24 469:8 470:3,4,6,10 471:13,16 472:3 472:21 473:9,17 473:18 474:3 476:11477:16,22 478:13,21 480:4 480:20 481:12,21 482:23 483:1,5,11 483:17,19 484:4 485:18 486:11 487:1,6,8,16 488:2 488:11,20 489:4 489:10,21490:15 492:11,22 493:9 494:9,14,20,22 495:4,18 496:17 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [okay - optical] Page 46 496:22 498:3,22 499:11,14,25 500:4,8,16 501:18 502:9,23 503:12 503:24 504:12,18 506:15,19 508:4 509:18,23 510:3 511:7,12,19 513:5 513:17 514:2,6,17 514:21 515:1,14 516:9,25 517:2,6 517:10,23 518:12 519:4,7,13,20 520:1,7,12,18,20 520:22 521:8,14 521:20 522:13 523:21 524:5 525:25 526:8,11 527:10,19 528:11 528:21 530:1,20 531:19,24 533:2,5 533:23 534:13,24 535:24 536:2,12 537:15 538:22 539:9,20 540:14 541:10 542:2 543:6,20 544:1,7,9 544:22 545:7,19 546:15 547:6,10 547:15,19 548:3 548:11,21 549:23 549:25 550:4 551:9,16 552:5 554:5 558:4 559:3 559:9,21 560:8,9 560:15 561:6,15 561:19,22 562:17 562:23 563:2,2,10 563:23 564:4,17 564:19 565:19,25 566:14,16,18 567:5,12,15 568:6 568:16,19,24 569:4,8 571:25 572:6,18,25 573:3 573:21 574:3,9,21 575:17,25 576:11 578:20 579:14,19 581:16,22,24 583:11,15,23 585:10 586:2,5,7 587:9,9 588:2,17 588:23 589:24 591:2 592:11,19 593:4,13 594:7,22 595:1,5,24 597:4 598:6,13,23 599:13,19,24 600:19 601:5,15 601:20 602:4,9 603:10,14 604:14 604:22 605:5,12 605:17 606:18,20 607:8 608:1,25 609:6,16 610:7,11 610:19 612:5,10 612:14,14 613:14 613:16 614:2,8,11 615:9,12,19 616:13 617:6,13 617:24 618:15 619:11 621:12,17 622:2,9,16 623:4 623:10,15 625:7 625:13,17,25 627:5,16 628:8,21 628:24 629:3,22 630:4,19 631:8,17 632:8,24 633:19 634:18 635:16 636:4,19 637:3,15 638:9 639:3,15 640:4 641:4,10 642:9,15,24 644:8 645:6 646:25 648:14 649:4,11 650:15 651:17 652:17,23 653:12 653:21 654:7,19 655:2,3 656:18 657:20 658:19 659:3 660:4,19,20 661:2,7,10 662:13 662:25 664:4,9,23 665:15 666:25 668:19 669:21 670:14 671:1,22 672:11 674:25 675:7,18,24 676:17 677:4,6,17 678:6 681:10 682:23 684:13 685:14,18 689:5 689:12 690:3,8 691:20 693:7,18 694:2 695:9,18 696:9,22 697:3,12 697:15 698:1,25 699:7,21,25 700:10,15 701:15 702:9,12,22 703:4 703:6,13,25 704:14,19,20 706:12 708:1,8,15 709:10,21 710:1 710:19,25 711:8 712:13,17 713:3 713:15 714:15 715:18,21,24 716:7,10 717:18 718:12 719:3,13 719:19 720:1 721:12 722:5,13 725:24 726:3,17 726:25 old 379:16 473:14 504:2 510:25 512:16 Oliver 384:9,14 once 455:17 485:12 one's 505:24 558:17 ones 705:12 ongoing 698:12 online 499:4,7 oops 553:18 open 512:19 554:18 opened 555:25 opening 722:19 723:4 operate 725:22 operating 576:17 686:1 709:11 operation 410:9 458:21 operations 573:12 operative 607:6 opinion 477:11 491:5 571:1,20,24 599:4,8 612:6 615:5 658:12 682:12 686:14,15 713:12 719:4,6 opinions 593:20 615:21 opportunity 513:13 opposed 521:2 677:4 opposing 517:14 optical 388:25 389:22 391:12 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [optical - paper] Page 47 393:15 448:25 449:3 452:8,15 453:6 456:3,13 463:13 466:20 469:18 470:17 584:5,16 592:6 601:24 615:5 618:8 619:14 627:25 629:16 632:10,16,18,20 633:12 642:4 670:18 678:18 698:6,7 730:22 option 493:5 704:15 orchestrating 721:14 orden 492:20 order 427:4 434:16,21 435:2,6 435:8,11,14,22 668:15 740:9 ordered 579:10,15 579:23 orders 579:22,23 ordinate 658:13 ordinating 721:21 723:13,15 ore 404:8 405:4,24 406:3,6 409:12,20 410:1,6,11,13,16 410:19,20 411:1 411:11,24412:6 412:12 417:20 425:2,17 426:21 436:13 438:18 467:9 539:12 676:6,11 684:17 684:20 729:10 ores 402:13 403:22 410:16,18 organic 439:9 organization 424:1 493:2 495:25 497:4,5 659:14 organize 660:7 organized 660:6 orient 660:9 origin 447:20 original 527:7 646:12,15 647:18 658:7 724:19 originally 399:21 originated 595:10 orrick 385:2 orrick.com 385:5 385:6 osha 469:25 471:8 472:10,18 632:13 687:14 688:1 692:15 otc 675:20,22 710:21 ounces 464:19,20 464:21 outcome 501:10 745:16 outline 535:7 outlook 721:1 outside 557:20 571:24 overall 615:20 overseas 665:24 666:4 oversee 570:16 overview 702:3 owned 397:9 635:12 ______ P_____ p 383:1,1 384:1,1 385:1,1 386:1,1 445:7 516:18,20 516:22,25 518:4 546:2 669:17 pl-2657979 746:2 pacific 379:6 packaged 431:24 packages 505:23 packaging 641:23 page 389:1,7,20 391:3,11 393:3,5 393:19 395:2 400:20 411:16 421:16 422:9 426:2 428:14 431:12,13 432:15 437:18 439:20 448:24 459:16 462:5,7,7 467:20 467:24 470:7,13 471:2,3 474:25 475:11,24 476:13 480:17 495:17 504:5 522:22 523:6 535:1 538:10,23 547:1 548:22,23,23 550:8 559:21,25 560:4,17 561:21 561:25 575:23,24 580:1,6,10,23 583:15 608:14 613:16618:15 620:19,19 622:10 623:11 630:21 631:18,19 641:3 641:10 654:12 660:5,6,8,11 661:4 673:4 676:18 679:5,10 691:25 698:2 711:12 712:14,16,21 714:12,18 716:11 728:2,9 729:2 730:2 731:2 732:2 733:2 734:2 735:2 736:2 737:2 738:2 739:2 740:2 741:2 742:2 743:2 744:5 746:5 pages 478:9 579:9 633:22,23 744:3 paid 492:13 701:25 palmolive 491:6 panatier 383:3,3 387:7 396:10,13 396:19 414:25 425:12 445:14,16 445:20,22 451:10 481:20 482:3 495:8 496:6,16 505:21 511:21 512:1 546:1 572:8 572:12 574:11,13 625:16 640:15 641:2 672:1 709:24 710:4 725:20,23 726:23 726:25 728:4 panel 675:12,20 710:21,23 741:4 paper 469:3,9 476:25 477:14,18 477:21 478:6,7,14 478:24 479:1 481:14,22512:11 574:22 595:12 640:17 654:15 690:19,22 691:4,8 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [paper - personality] Page 48 721:8 722:11 papers 387:16 690:24 723:14 paragraph 427:2 439:2 446:18 456:17 480:5 496:2 500:2 510:20 515:15 523:5 567:7 599:2 602:12 655:4 673:25 711:17 paragraphs 656:5 711:4 parallel 408:16 parent 507:11,15 507:23 508:12,24 509:24 parent's 507:5 parental 507:1 parenting 507:9 508:13 parents 499:5 507:16 508:7,9,10 509:4 p ark 386:13 parklawn 710:22 parnell 384:13 parse 673:21 p art 395:4 399:6 400:6 410:4 430:22 441:2,23 450:14,21 487:5 493:8 495:12 496:2 498:14 500:9 517:21 637:10 655:16 659:21 661:3 673:14 701:19,23 720:18 particle 470:1,5 473:13,20 474:4 475:4 559:18 609:23 particles 405:18 423:8 424:8 452:7 452:16,24 454:5,8 454:11,16,22 455:8 462:19,24 462:25 463:7,8,8 464:12,13,22 465:1,3 471:18,19 471:21473:11 474:8,10 475:14 477:8 505:1,3 524:24 534:18 535:5 540:21 543:12,13,16,22 544:2,18,20,24 588:9,15,19 589:2 589:6,21 590:9 608:16,23 609:3,8 609:9,14 620:22 620:25 638:20,21 673:7 730:21 particular 394:6 396:1 468:13 487:20 493:10 515:18 563:16 569:10 579:22,23 602:8 659:9 673:2 706:20 particularly 536:23 563:6,18 579:7 639:4,6 particulars 475:16 particulate 673:7 parties 745:14,15 parts 404:8,11,18 404:19,23 462:20 463:4 470:20 party 725:2 pass 629:19 659:5 664:1,6 681:11 700:6 702:6 passed 584:10 629:12 661:8,11 698:22 702:25 passing 576:13 pastore 380:4 patent 421:10 patents 573:23 622:13 paterson 383:20 pattengill 545:23 546:1 552:7 734:20 735:7 pattern 447:21 512:5 patterns 448:2 pay 535:19 598:2 pbicks 385:5 pc 383:3 peanuts 684:2 pediatricians 526:20,25 peer 469:10 481:18,22,24 690:22,24 691:3,8 721:8 pencil 423:13 penetrate 522:1 525:2 penetration 529:2 Pennsylvania 384:10 386:4 people 415:20 491:4,4,11492:3 496:19 528:6 534:22 536:11,12 536:24 548:5 549:1,7,8 555:17 559:23 562:25 563:14,24 581:4,9 582:25 597:10,15 600:23 602:23 603:24 645:17 648:20 652:25 667:4,6 697:23 699:10 713:1 714:6,13 perceived 388:3 533:14 percentage 486:12 632:2 percentages 414:1 689:22 695:11 perfect 572:17 performed 400:22 403:1 407:12 484:12 608:13 period 491:13 494:21 517:4 631:15 periodic 715:11 716:11,17,25 717:13 periodically 715:1 permanently 516:11 permission 638:25 639:20,21 640:2 720:4 permit 618:10 person 423:15,17 448:18 536:25 587:11 691:18 personal 530:25 649:14,17 personalities 595:3 597:5 631:5 737:8 personality 595:21,22 596:7 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [perspective - pooley] Page 49 perspective 682:18 perspectives 469:11 478:25 perspirant 675:12 741:4 pertain 528:4 pertaining 509:12 511:15 pete 520:14,15,23 607:10 peter 385:3 petrographic 560:25 petterson 594:19 600:24 616:3 621:13 630:11 634:1,5 643:1 654:5 672:13 675:10 737:16 738:8,11,22 739:7 740:19 741:3 742:3,19 pfizer 549:3 613:4 613:10 615:2 699:22 700:2,8 pharmaceutical 469:4,16 490:25 516:22 653:25 731:20 732:4 739:19 phase 677:9,24 phd 586:10 Philadelphia 386:4 philosophy 707:5 708:16 709:12 phone 481:25 489:17,20 493:20 570:22,23 613:5 718:6 725:10 742:19 photocopy 473:14 579:6 photograph 473:13 phraseology 410:19 457:18 624:10 656:14 phrases 573:2 physical 402:25 521:3 physician 711:1 picture 475:21 502:1 piece 707:20 pieces 446:13 471:23,25 pigment 380:9 381:9 382:8 pile 669:13 pinpoint 522:7 pinto 667:10 pisani 710:14 pistawaka 580:7 pitfalls 639:9 722:16,19 723:5 Pittsburgh 384:10 place 403:12 496:11 501:7 507:13 513:14 531:10,21 571:2 571:13 603:9 653:9 672:5 placed 511:14 places 475:3 placing 664:24 plaintiff 382:4 plaintiffs 379:4 380:5 381:5 383:2 384:6 plan 728:10 planned 431:24 722:15 plant 397:1 398:21 603:8 728:18 plants 577:10 plate 632:6 platelet 525:12 527:23 platelike 528:7 plates 447:10,13 platy 447:12 620:7 play 488:16 played 488:19 players 658:21 playing 511:1 plaything 510:22 please 404:2 405:7 411:16415:1 426:1430:15 484:15 485:11 496:3 505:20 547:22 548:7 578:12 618:15 640:25 683:4 pleased 570:19 636:11 plenty 568:17,18 pile 385:8,12 plural 580:19 plus 404:22 417:1 433:3,9 434:24 514:15 628:22 732:5 pm 482:2 495:6,7 572:10,11 640:13 640:14 710:2 727:2 pneumoconiosis 525:14,17,20 526:7,14 574:23 575:14,19 576:24 578:5,14 736:10 po 383:20 point 397:17 415:2 421:9 436:12 440:22 456:6 491:19,24 507:8 515:10 517:15 518:18 527:17 529:13 563:11 567:24 577:14 578:18 582:5 583:14 594:16 599:14 605:13 617:10,18 627:9 669:2,4 676:7 678:8 690:3,5 698:16 702:22 706:9 707:6 pointed 583:25 points 522:25 616:14 poirier 514:4 733:23 poisoning 512:5 733:18 polarized 628:22 polaski 384:8 policy 418:4,5,10 451:12 571:10,15 583:3 585:3 664:25 706:8 political 565:15,17 565:23 566:10,12 politically 709:14 politician 596:15 pooley 387:13 394:20 395:16 419:7,8 547:22 549:14 565:8 602:10 603:17 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [pooley - present] Page 50 606:9 609:1 622:25 623:13,18 623:24 626:7 627:14,17 628:2 630:1 643:21 644:19 647:5 676:3 677:13 678:15,25 735:18 pooley's 393:14 394:2 565:10,21 566:8 606:4 608:12 645:3,9 675:25 poorer 629:25 pop 444:13 portion 467:9 position 448:25 449:11 501:11 520:23 521:16,25 525:1 530:23 538:12 570:16 611:7 654:15 681:14 705:7 positions 449:12 positive 437:15 467:2 555:24 575:5 602:2 604:3 604:5,12 605:25 618:1 624:13,19 positively 439:4 positives 556:12 possession 460:7 possibility 443:1 516:2 521:7 526:21 714:25 718:20 possible 388:2,4 417:9 497:17 502:16 503:17 511:11,17,18 525:9 528:17 590:16 604:9 618:6 621:21 626:13 709:13 possibly 644:22 post 536:19 posture 618:23 706:5 708:10 potential 397:17 401:21442:23 511:15 522:4,13 526:7 537:2,6 563:6 564:1,10 570:7 595:8 634:9 677:1 potentially 402:12 403:22,25 602:20 610:15 potentials 676:25 pots 554:18 603:9 pound 519:9,10 powder 394:12 403:4 412:17,18 431:19 440:25 441:21 458:24 460:15 464:6,17 464:21 466:7,24 476:5 477:1,20 480:22,24 481:2 481:16 484:13 485:8,23 486:6,24 488:7,9 500:5,7,10 500:13,18,23 501:2,8,9,15,22,25 502:12,13,15,17 502:20 503:15,21 504:23 505:7,8 506:9 507:1,24 508:7 509:5 510:17,21,25 512:19,22 513:8,8 513:24 514:8,12 514:15 528:18 530:9 531:11 532:11 533:9 539:4,6,12 540:19 541:7 542:17 543:9 546:10 548:18 550:14 551:7 563:6 566:4 567:13 568:4 576:14 577:9 591:7 608:14 609:3 616:18 618:16 620:5,24 633:17 634:11,15 636:25 641:8,9,14 641:25 642:11 658:8 672:19 682:7,15,17 683:10 685:8 686:8,9 687:23 688:5 689:18,21 690:4,6,10 693:1 693:10 694:5 695:13 697:9 720:23 721:10 733:5,6,14,19 735:14 powdered 503:14 609:2 powders 422:18 504:21,25 522:8 527:25 559:14 656:1 665:6 670:19 722:16 power 576:18 powerful 414:7 p r 421:23 541:5 617:19 practical 663:13 712:23 713:5,6 practicality 663:6 practice 493:7 571:23 preconcentrating 622:23 preconcentration 623:13,19,24 predicted 411:22 predicting 530:11 prefer 639:4 prepare 453:22 555:21 prepared 422:4 553:2,5,19,23 556:12 557:14 720:24 preparing 555:13 prescribed 506:2 presence 419:6 420:6,10,16,19 454:22 455:9 456:22 457:2,9 520:24 529:5 531:2 552:19 703:18 present 386:21 399:11 400:9,10 400:13 401:10 402:12 403:12,22 403:25 413:19 418:6 427:12 434:15 439:10 446:20 447:24 453:14 454:5,9,24 456:14 470:18 515:18 535:5 559:23 584:4 585:4,12 586:4 588:14 604:17 611:1 618:20,22 632:9 684:9,25 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [present - products] 685:13,15 687:12 689:22 706:4 710:24 714:6 716:20 presentation 550:17 675:20 679:7 711:19 716:15 presentations 610:25 presented 416:1 552:15 675:5 presenting 402:11 403:21 528:1 presently 431:23 602:25 644:11 645:14 647:1 648:2 president 527:18 536:13 563:25 587:14 654:4 658:10 715:4 pressure 419:4 666:12 667:14 668:2 presumably 427:5 presume 518:5 pretty 399:18 453:17 475:7 482:21 510:11 557:10 565:11,22 573:13,25 593:19 628:2,10 657:19 662:14 664:16 670:22 701:7 708:24 718:4 prevent 652:25 preview 646:2 647:11 previous 391:3 515:19 577:8 606:23 614:3 692:13 705:2 previously 531:4 552:16 639:22 670:19 prima 519:22 primarily 682:12 prim ary 683:9 principal 709:11 principle 538:19 632:19 print 499:8 prior 506:13 512:17 516:1 577:12 587:20 716:24 priority 746:1 prismatic 471:22 471:25 privately 551:6 privileged 710:9 710:10 742:8 proactive 582:10 706:13 707:4 probability 601:19 probably 405:22 405:24 449:18 465:2 479:13 511:8 527:18 537:10 544:25 554:12,18 556:19 586:12 618:8 619:1 625:11 633:5 634:22 638:8 641:21 651:13 664:20,20 664:22 692:14 723:1 probe 560:25 Page 51 problem 416:20 479:7 529:3 533:15,16,21 613:23 637:23,23 641:7 652:14,14 679:20 694:14,17 694:19 701:1,5,6 705:3 718:18 problems 479:6 506:10 614:23 644:14 645:25 651:19,21 652:2 652:12 653:5 procedure 387:13 452:6 453:21 454:15 555:13 559:13 585:3 623:25 658:15 663:12 698:6,7 700:17 730:18 procedures 543:10 555:16 556:15 703:17 proceeding 389:24 391:14 proceedings 744:4 process 397:9,16 401:23 404:5 407:15 427:6 458:19 459:1 466:15 588:14 589:1,3 606:22 629:21 635:14 643:12 655:5,11 655:17 672:18 683:6,7 691:3 698:12 703:17 processed 588:8 605:2 processes 388:6 419:22 427:10 555:16 556:15 processing 417:7 466:15 539:3 590:9 682:6 procter 385:17 produce 531:3 711:21 producing 428:18 product 401:22 402:3 404:11,19 404:24 405:4,21 406:3,7 409:6 416:14,18,19,22 417:6 442:17 463:23 467:13 493:10 507:9,20 508:25 509:7 511:16513:15 531:22 532:2 533:18 546:5,6 553:7,7 581:1,14 582:9 589:16 599:17 600:18 605:3,3 610:8 620:21 621:4,4 637:22 639:25 657:4 673:10 674:18 676:5,9,12 695:15 production 428:6 428:15,17 429:22 430:1,3 534:19 products 416:17 421:23 425:23 429:10,11,14,18 429:22 458:24,25 466:1,2 479:9 482:17 485:5 499:6 508:14,17 529:15 530:4 537:13 539:2 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [products - quantification] Page 52 546:18 573:16 604:7 610:3 634:8 636:12 666:23 667:1 676:24 677:2 689:16 721:10 738:23 prof 534:16 734:12 professional 638:3 638:7 professionalism 723:22 profile 595:7 profit 668:6 profits 666:14 668:8,16 669:5 program 389:11 397:13,14 450:14 483:4 532:6 535:7 593:23 672:17 programs 499:7 progress 728:11 project 387:24 389:11,16 391:4 637:24 647:18 670:22 726:5 728:11 730:16 734:9 735:22 737:18 740:21 prominent 510:11 promoted 595:8 promulgation 661:5 proof 507:6 proper 607:13 properly 615:11 615:16 677:11 properties 403:3,7 proposal 415:14 530:19 590:4 651:10,11,23,24 661:6 proposed 393:15 449:2 497:16 585:3,24 586:14 587:18,19 618:19 622:6,19 642:12 651:15,20 652:20 661:14,15 663:6 663:13,16,21 722:18 723:3 738:15 740:9 proposing 450:12 587:23 protect 620:5 634:14 protection 402:10 421:10 596:17 protective 616:17 protocol 533:3 prove 531:16 proved 409:5 proven 491:12 502:23 538:15 702:15,17 provide 402:10 403:20 439:1 441:3,5,25 535:7 537:1 538:12 542:16 638:18 682:14 683:4 provided 437:10 477:24 504:3 535:6 543:1 576:18 594:7 664:18 682:7,13 provides 499:5 655:6,12 providing 499:9 prudent 528:17 538:16 public 493:8 499:8 526:10 529:13,19 529:23 532:7 540:17 541:8 569:20 570:1,5 571:20 599:14,22 653:6 689:15 746:24 public's 533:8 publication 388:13,21 628:7 721:11 publications 499:8 511:4 683:23 706:22 publicity 493:12 542:14 publish 722:11 published 389:23 469:9 476:25 477:13,18 481:14 570:7 577:14 578:8 587:21 595:12 628:15 691:8 721:8 740:10 publishes 619:1 pull 629:5 pulled 425:9 499:19 500:22 511:9 573:5 640:17 pulmonary 527:24 528:14 530:5,7 pure 479:12 554:14 650:15 purer 682:15 purest 399:14 purity 397:16 539:2 639:11 655:12 656:16,22 657:13 665:18 purpose 496:13 559:12 685:3 purposefully 502:13 purposes 409:24 425:22 pursuing 620:4 pushed 417:8 put 390:14 395:7,8 421:22 435:18 436:7 444:24 445:1466:23 481:13 500:2 533:17 538:24 541:5 547:6 583:4 588:25 592:16 617:20 618:2 629:9 651:15 693:13 694:5 puts 483:12,14 540:16 672:12 putting 507:6 _____ q_____ q&a 741:3 qa 602:25 qualification 722:2 qualifications 487:19 qualified 524:1 qualifying 672:18 qualitatively 439:11 quality 448:19 550:22,23 551:12 553:16 563:5,13 564:10 572:21 574:6 683:10 quantification 452:7 730:20 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [quantify - real} Page 53 quantify 407:13 quantitative 401:8 728:14 quantities 390:5 619:13 642:3 644:10 645:13 648:1 quantity 480:11 quarter 431:25 quarterly 728:10 quarters 598:9 quartz 390:6 602:1 740:16 question 429:5 441:18 442:13 443:9 481:21 502:11 508:6 523:2,25 524:6 528:6 541:4 552:19 557:7,10 567:21 578:10 591:18 606:14 607:7 614:15 626:17 633:14 645:2 651:22 652:19 686:4 693:12 696:2,12 699:1,2 702:23 703:5,7 707:3,4 708:18 questionable 401:9 questioned 712:18 questioning 562:14 questions 484:17 530:15 535:8,14 559:16,17 562:1 607:9,11 614:19 666:2 675:11,20 676:3 679:6 711:18 quick 701:7 quickly 417:9 quirin 385:8 quite 651:25 684:1 707:2 quits 726:24 quote 536:20 quoted 536:23 quotes 432:20 433:15,15 483:12 483:15 553:4 ________ r_______ r 383:1 384:1 385:1 386:1 610:23 634:7 r& d 419:16 548:5 581:5 635:20 682:12 706:4 rail 662:6,12 raise 441:18 614:23 628:25 666:2 681:15 raised 535:8,14 540:2 581:8 585:18711:18 raising 521:7 614:14 ralph 667:6,9 ran 459:24 699:18 range 636:24 ranges 559:18 rapidly 510:24 618:25 641:20 rare 409:19 410:1 411:3,10 684:16 rash 499:23,25 500:1 733:3 rashly 614:14 ratio 408:16,18,20 447:6 471:6,11 472:9,18 473:7 474:23 477:3 rationales 416:2 ratios 471:21 474:12,14 raw 403:3 418:6 621:19 672:17 731:10,15 rawle 384:8 rawle.com 384:11 ray 394:11,12 395:10 425:16 452:19,23 455:13 455:24 543:11 546:4,17 553:6 601:9 603:16 604:9 606:2 622:24 623:20 624:1 628:22 630:2 639:9 678:17 698:7 rays 575:7,8 reach 506:7 509:8 509:9 677:3 reached 512:22 575:12 reaction 396:18 484:12 reactive 412:1 706:14 707:6 read 390:9,10 395:22 397:18 399:17 401:24,25 402:14 409:21 412:2 423:9 453:15 460:25 468:6 480:13 483:17,18 487:4 496:3,7,21 498:24 498:25 500:3 515:23 522:12 526:3 531:6 537:4 539:7 554:17 557:17 558:17 560:14 563:20 564:14 565:20 575:15,21 581:9 593:25 594:1 595:18 607:16,17 607:17 610:18 611:12,13 618:13 619:3,4 623:16 624:6,7 635:6 639:13 642:7,8 643:15 644:16,17 666:16,17 668:1 673:12,13 679:25 680:6 691:4 704:10,14,20 716:22 744:3 readily 505:5 reading 402:19 461:6 527:3 534:25 607:20 704:17 reads 413:5,17 423:11 459:20 483:10 485:15 486:14 528:24 669:8 ready 508:1 559:10 reagent 396:15,16 397:1,15 398:2 403:2 404:5 406:9 406:18 407:13 682:3,25 728:17 reagents 398:8 405:2 real 406:13 520:19 624:17 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [reality - released] Page 54 reality 492:1 really 432:2 491:3 494:1 503:8 516:25 541:15 582:6 658:20 668:20 676:14 725:19 reason 387:20 400:3 420:8 432:1 437:9 445:6 479:11 480:1 488:24 497:24 521:16 533:11 597:12 628:18 631:13 673:19 674:15,20 685:10 706:17 746:5 reasonable 466:8 486:10 491:14 607:6 reasons 419:20 456:24 457:6 595:9 665:4,6 reath 386:12 rebuttal 692:21 recall 387:15 388:12 451:4 604:6,19 605:6 607:2 614:6 640:23 672:9 693:15 722:15 recalled 728:3 receipt 658:13 received 489:1 526:18 533:6 569:13 573:9,23 608:8 receiving 658:21 recipients 495:22 recognized 490:24 555:20 584:9 recognizes 677:8 recollect 683:23 recollection 501:24 recommend 456:23 457:15,19 458:4 703:20 704:22 718:19 719:9 recommendation 607:11 recommended 454:25 457:13,23 706:3 718:24 record 387:1,2 396:4,11,12 451:8 451:9 468:4,15,16 477:23 482:1,2 495:5,6,7 497:20 572:10,11 605:7 640:13,14,15 710:2,3 727:1 745:9 recorded 683:2 745:6 records 442:10,11 443:21 recurring 712:10 red 412:10 500:2 redacted 493:21 reduce 405:3 417:21418:8 620:7,12,15 684:23 685:11 reduced 427:5 620:17 672:25 673:1 reduces 406:10 reducing 447:8 reduction 398:1,3 399:4 417:2 433:4 refer 639:6 reference 522:4 references 475:12 512:10 referred 524:20 527:10 550:18 referring 402:17 424:13 refers 423:17 456:19 661:23 reflect 614:20 676:6,6,11 reflected 540:12 615:22 reflecting 650:8 refractive 601:25 refractory 388:25 refutations 721:14 refute 690:18,21 721:4,22 refuted 693:21 694:9 regard 421:23 525:9 527:25 530:22 534:21 542:6 560:12 657:16 regarding 484:9 484:25 542:15 563:12 587:19 640:5 652:19 regardless 718:20 regina 448:16 region 502:19 register 389:24 391:13 587:21 740:10 regular 436:13 475:5 491:20 603:6 regularly 494:15 554:3 regulated 469:19 471:8 664:13,15 regulation 587:20 587:24 659:5 664:6 692:7 698:18 702:7,25 regulations 611:17 652:20 665:10,16 regulatory 471:6 471:18 658:14 673:6 674:8 reiterated 631:9 reject 455:22 457:5 604:23 605:8,22 rejected 456:11 457:13,17 605:9 605:15,19 rejection 455:15 455:17 456:15 457:24 458:3 604:6 relate 538:1 related 577:16 647:17 665:7 724:20 relating 524:23 577:2 612:8 724:22 relation 534:19 580:21 relations 664:2 relationship 431:5 575:4 587:6 638:3 649:20 725:6 relative 525:9 552:19 745:12,15 released 422:11 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [relevant - result] Page 55 relevant 581:6 reliable 453:7 663:12 relies 452:11 rely 491:4,4 616:17 617:2 remainder 472:12 remains 480:11 remarks 401:17 remember 399:17 444:15 533:1 548:4 551:15 552:21 555:2 564:21 571:16 572:15 592:20 614:3 642:18 672:24 673:1 remembered 447:3 remind 658:6 removal 399:4 419:9 432:18 433:13,19 589:2 remove 387:13,19 399:7,10 400:10 400:14 416:6 427:11 433:18 447:5 529:8 588:8 588:15 590:9 removed 388:3 removes 475:17 477:9 removing 387:21 remuneration 535:18 ren 500:6 506:9 replace 682:1 replied 527:21 reply 524:21 652:19 658:13 replying 658:22 report 388:10 391:24 394:2 395:4,22 399:17 401:7,16 406:21 424:12,23 437:8 443:17,19 454:9 456:21 459:6 465:12 484:25 485:16 488:15 490:3,5,11,21 492:5 510:17 523:12,19 539:12 552:18,21 553:14 559:19 565:8 575:18 576:13 608:12,13 638:5,7 648:21 687:2 694:25 696:8,24 696:24 702:2 715:1 728:11 729:15,21 730:4,8 730:10 731:3 734:20 735:17 reported 430:5,7 440:14 480:7 510:23 521:13 550:12 574:20 577:3 591:5 726:14 reporter 379:19 461:9 484:10 485:2 504:19 545:25 635:23 745:1,3 reporting 636:23 715:11716:12,25 717:13 746:1 reports 395:16,19 423:8 424:8 436:15,24 525:13 543:8 557:17 567:18 602:13 650:23 706:22 716:15,17 represent 512:8 representation 578:5 representative 661:20 662:23 representatives 598:19 represented 656:12 represents 551:11 reputation 558:7 request 643:4 706:1 requested 461:9 654:13 requests 643:5 require 559:16 602:22 638:19 666:13 667:15,18 668:3 required 539:21 686:4 746:21 requirements 516:24 requires 601:24 653:4,16 requiring 658:8 665:4 research 387:23 397:13 415:12 418:23 482:12 496:8 539:4 560:1 560:21 570:6 573:12,16,17 581:2 595:11 634:25 636:13,22 646:3 647:11 665:5 666:4 682:1 707:7 711:10 723:18 researchers 691:4 694:12 resorted 672:22 674:2 respect 706:5 respected 494:6 respectively 591:8 respirable 580:4 620:22,25 673:7 respiration 513:1 respiratory 512:24 respond 593:10 708:21 709:8,18 responded 715:6 responds 524:14 response 393:14 401:20 564:12 568:7,14 658:16 680:13 707:8 708:19 responses 658:22 665:25 responsibility 441:13 507:9,10 508:9 708:5 responsible 507:16 509:15 581:10 636:23 650:19 681:14 responsive 557:6 681:18 rest 537:3 671:12 restated 672:20 result 449:22 454:5 602:2 631:12 688:3,5 725:5 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [resulting - right] Page 56 resulting 416:3 467:13 474:12 529:4 results 401:9 402:25 404:1 411:22 413:13 440:9,13,14 441:3 441:5,25 442:24 454:3 462:6 463:5 467:2,4 474:13 480:15 484:14 485:10,13 486:3 490:13 546:4 557:13,14 559:15 591:17 619:18 625:22 626:4 663:18 671:3,7 695:9,19 698:4 699:9 713:25 715:1 retained 420:25 retaining 535:17 retired 527:6 returns 666:15 668:17 669:5 reveals 450:2 reverse 503:19 review 388:10 394:4 396:3 430:18 469:10 481:18,24 483:2 484:15 492:12 556:3 570:6,8 691:3,8 722:7,17 723:3 729:15 reviewed 394:4 469:3 481:22 485:12 524:22 543:8 560:25 571:17 690:22,24 721:8 reviewing 388:14 726:12 revlon 384:16 485:25 486:4 rhoads 386:2 rhurst 386:5 rid 418:8 547:23 548:7,10 667:10 right 387:10,17 388:7 389:9,15,17 390:9,14 391:4,22 391:24 392:3,11 392:24 393:1,12 393:16,22,24 394:7,9,17,19,21 394:25 395:3,11 395:13,17,20 396:2,20 397:4,5 397:11,18,24 398:5,16 400:25 401:15,24 402:6 402:14 403:7,15 403:24 404:6,9,12 404:15,24 405:1,4 405:19,25 406:4,7 406:18 407:1,5 408:3,6,8,14,18,24 409:7,14,21 411:13,15 412:2 412:13,18,21,23 413:4,16,20 414:9 414:18 415:4,8,20 415:23 416:5 417:4,12,16,22 418:11,14,16,24 419:9,12,15 420:8 420:17,19 421:1,5 421:11,19,24 422:3,5,11,23 423:9,10,15,18,25 424:2,9,21,24 425:2,19,23 426:9 426:15 427:7,14 427:23 428:3,12 429:23 430:6,10 430:17,21 431:6 431:11,20 432:6 432:21 433:4,9,14 433:19,21,24 434:10,18,22 435:5,7,17 436:2 436:13,20 437:13 437:23 439:14,17 440:1,18,21 442:3 442:9,15,25 443:15 444:4,7,16 444:18,22 446:2,3 446:5,10,25 447:8 447:8,14 448:4,18 448:21,21 449:9 449:13,19,23 450:3,13,20,22,24 451:6,11,18 452:4 452:17,20,25 453:2,9,15,18,22 454:2,6455:1,5,9 455:12,14,18 456:8,11,15,25 457:3,6,17,24 458:1,4,6 459:6,9 459:13,19 460:3,5 460:8 461:10,13 461:20 462:9,11 462:14,17,21 463:5,8,10,17,24 464:3,9,13,25 465:3,6,9,13 466:16 467:2,5,7 467:12,14,22 468:2,14 469:13 469:15,22 471:1 471:11,13,14 472:1,6,9,11,14,19 472:23 473:7,23 474:5,10,17 475:1 475:10,19 476:1,9 476:19,22 477:5 477:12 478:2,10 478:11,15,19 479:2,24 480:2,13 480:18 481:5,7,12 481:18,22,25 482:4,15 483:9,12 483:22,23 484:2 484:19,22 485:20 486:1,4,9,13,18,20 487:1,3,10,13,21 487:24,25 488:9 488:13,18 489:2 489:15 491:15,17 491:21492:17,23 493:21 495:4,9,17 495:25 496:20,25 496:25 497:18,20 498:22 499:12,15 500:11,14,18,24 501:3,5,9,11,13,19 502:3,5,15 503:10 503:12 504:8,16 505:3,15,22 506:3 507:7,17,20,21 508:2 509:5,5,8,15 509:16,21 510:1 510:11,12,18 511:2,10,16 512:15,15 513:11 513:15,25 514:2 514:15 515:22 516:1,4,7,16 517:8 517:12,15,23,25 518:5,10,15,22 519:4,11,15 520:4 520:5,10 521:4,10 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [right - right] Page 57 522:11,16 523:10 523:19,24 524:2 524:12,15 525:16 526:2 527:13,19 528:23 529:15,17 529:19,24 530:3 530:13,16,18 531:6 532:14,17 532:20,25 533:10 533:20 534:4,8,11 535:19,24 537:4,7 537:24 538:10 539:7,13 540:1,11 540:17,21,23 541:24 542:7,11 542:18,24 543:14 543:17,24 544:11 544:13,16 545:3,8 545:12,17,18,21 546:7,10,23 547:2 547:4,8,13,17,23 548:11,14,19,24 549:5,10,14 550:6 550:8,19,24 551:2 551:12,14,16 552:3,8 553:12,20 553:25 554:22,24 555:3,12,14,19 556:5 558:11,13 559:10,19 560:4,6 561:2,10,24 562:3 562:6,11,15,17,21 562:25 563:8 564:25 565:4,13 566:4,6,11,14,20 566:25,25 567:3,8 567:13,19,22 568:1,4,17 569:5,8 569:11,22 570:12 571:7,13,21,25 572:14 573:13,19 574:14,23,25 575:15 576:21 577:20 578:22,25 579:6,7,21 580:24 581:18 582:3,7,12 582:17,19,23 583:6,18,21 584:8 584:12,18,21 585:14,20,22 586:9,24 587:9,14 588:10 589:7,11 589:14,22 590:12 590:15,18,19,22 590:25 591:9,12 591:16 592:1,3,14 592:22 593:8,18 593:21 594:5,12 594:14,20 595:3 595:18,21,24,25 596:7,13,17,22,24 597:3,19,23 598:2 598:8,11,25 599:13,13 600:8 600:22,25 601:3,9 601:13 602:4,7,15 603:12,22 604:7 605:1,5 606:5,10 606:16,24 607:3 607:16,18,20 608:1,4,7,17,19 609:4,6,10,14,25 610:5,9,12,17 611:2,12,23 612:1 612:7,7,12,14,23 613:20,25 614:11 615:14,17,23 616:3,11 617:1,4 617:11,16,22 618:3,13 619:3,11 619:20 620:1,2,18 621:7,10,15,21,25 622:2,5,16,17 623:2,13 624:6,16 624:21,23,25 625:5,14,23 626:6 626:9,24 627:1,11 627:12,14,14,20 628:6,14 629:7,20 630:1,4,4,9,17,24 631:6,15 633:17 634:1,24 635:1,4 636:2,8,16,21 637:1,9,11 638:9 638:13,23 639:1 639:13 640:4,16 642:7,13,15,16,22 643:10,13,24 644:3,16 645:6,9 645:19 646:11,20 647:8,13 648:2,4 649:2,6,18 650:2 651:3,5,8 652:3,5 652:17,20 653:1,7 653:12,19,21,24 654:5,9,17 655:8 655:14,19 656:2,5 656:9 657:4,11,14 657:18 658:10,17 659:1,18,24 660:25 661:8,8,16 661:25 662:18 663:8,16 664:2,17 664:23 665:1,13 665:21 666:4,16 666:19,23 667:2,5 667:9,12,12,16,19 668:9 669:7,12,18 670:8,24 671:5,9 671:13,17 672:4 672:24 673:12,16 673:21,24 674:5,9 674:13 675:14,16 675:22,25 676:3,8 676:9,15 677:4,13 677:15 678:2 679:3,16 680:5,11 680:17 681:3,8,12 681:23 682:3,9,18 682:23 683:1,3,7 683:11 684:17,20 685:1,8,22 686:10 686:13,16,21,23 687:4,8,18,24 688:2,9,11,17 689:1,2,10 690:11 690:14,16,22 691:2,7,11,15,18 691:23 692:4,6,22 693:5,10,20,23 694:18 696:4,9,11 697:13,15,16,18 697:24 698:11,19 699:10,16,19,23 700:4,6,6,8,13 701:11,15,20,24 702:1,4,7,14,19 703:6,11,24 704:3 704:25 705:4,6,22 705:24 706:10 707:8 708:3,6,13 708:22 709:8,18 710:11,14,17 711:2,10 712:11 713:1,16 714:3,7 714:13,23 715:4,8 715:13,16,19 716:2,20,22 717:1 717:4,6,10,13 718:7 719:13,17 719:23,24 720:5,7 720:10,12,14,17 721:5,23 723:8,11 723:14 726:7,15 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [right - samples] Page 58 727:1 rightfully 530:8 rightly 724:24 rights 667:5 rio 478:18 rise 602:1 604:3 605:25 risk 538:6 709:12 718:22 rj 490:17 491:15 491:19 492:9,14 robert 429:5,11,17 636:12 697:24 716:4 737:3 robin 698:5 robins 663:15 rockville 710:23 rods 592:9 roentgen 575:5 roger 416:1 446:3 616:8 role 527:16 718:4 rolle 413:3 429:6 429:11,18 549:11 608:5 610:3 622:11 625:10,11 630:11 669:22 677:14 679:18 680:3,14 681:5 697:24 710:13 711:5 716:4 721:7 728:20 729:12 737:21 740:15 rolle's 679:6 rolled 447:11 632:6,6 639:7,25 646:14 romano 385:22 romer 596:19 ronald 381:3 386:3 391:6 room 553:2,19 554:12 555:22,23 556:13,18 557:4 557:15 577:9 710:22 roughly 519:11 round 663:15 698:5 routinely 421:22 423:24 617:21 rs 452:2 rt 610:16 rub 505:7 run 421:9 428:6 429:22 430:1,3 484:1 501:1 554:11 601:25 603:15 620:15 680:24 running 439:3 460:17,23 468:18 486:15 520:9 runs 499:12 russell 452:2 634:7 636:12 730:18 738:23 ________ s_______ s 383:1,20 384:1 384:14 385:1 386:1,17,24 500:6 506:9 728:7 746:5 S5-888 413:11,14 414:16 sacramento 484:1 484:11 safe 582:9 600:6 614:16 618:23 679:13 680:4,15 681:6 683:13,16 686:7,13 687:8,17 687:23 688:4 689:18 safely 523:3 safer 683:21,22 safety 453:7 456:24 457:5 531:13 611:4 614:15,18,19 666:2 683:10 685:7 686:19 687:2 688:8 689:9 692:9 693:2 706:3 706:6 708:18 709:3 718:10 742:5 saint 384:17 sake 607:15 sale 531:21 sales 531:10 salient 403:3 sample 388:16 390:7 406:25 407:4 409:24 413:14414:16 428:9 434:13 435:24 437:16 439:10,23 440:16 445:6 446:13,14 447:25 453:22,25 456:24 457:16,20 472:25 473:13 474:10,15 475:21 476:3 486:16 550:18 553:8 554:10 592:8,8 604:3 605:25 618:12 620:2 629:7 661:19,23 662:11,16,22 663:2 670:8 671:4 671:16 676:7 697:5 700:1,2 sampled 661:21 samples 387:12 388:11,14,16,23 389:22,25 390:22 391:12 392:1 404:6413:7,11,15 419:8 425:1,5,17 426:8,21 427:4,16 427:25 428:2,5,6,6 428:11,15,15 429:23 430:1,4 434:8,10 436:5,7 437:12 438:13,16 438:17,19,22,24 439:3,20 440:25 444:22 445:3 446:7,12,21 448:15 459:12,18 460:5 461:22,25 462:14 465:16 466:14 470:5,23 470:24 471:17 473:12 474:24 475:25 476:7 480:7,18 491:7 543:11 546:6,12 546:18 547:4,6 548:18 551:21 552:17 553:2,6,7 553:11,18,24 554:3,7,13,14,22 555:1,13,24 557:13,22,25 558:9 584:10 592:25 593:15 596:5 603:5,15 618:20 637:20 645:9 670:15,23 671:8 696:13 698:5 699:10,12 699:14 700:12,12 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [samples - school] Page 59 729:9 730:14 731:5 sanctioned 587:20 sandland 692:1,7 697:17 713:25 sarah 484:14,16 satisfactory 618:24 700:21 satterley 386:22 386:22 savings 417:6 savorgnan 385:13 saw 416:25 433:18 449:22 553:10 626:15 629:15 644:20 647:7 696:10 720:2 saying 401:13 402:1 403:25 412:4 419:11 420:7,9 429:3 433:8,11 435:2,13 460:2,10 474:4 496:19 500:10 501:2,7 503:20 505:2 528:5,22 536:23 541:11 548:9 555:23,24 557:3 564:1 566:7 584:16 589:20,23 590:7 606:7 611:24 612:12 615:21 617:2 621:13 623:6 639:23 645:15 646:16 647:10 649:5 656:20 657:8 662:15 668:7,10,11,14 669:4,18 671:11 671:11 677:18 678:11,11 680:9 680:14 681:5 682:20 685:6 688:10,11,12 690:6 694:23 699:5 701:19 702:17 704:1,11 705:3 706:25 707:2,5 715:10 717:6,8 723:2,3 724:12 says 388:22 389:2 390:14 392:4,15 393:23 394:18 395:10 396:24,25 397:6 398:17,20 400:21 401:16 402:4403:18 405:11,18 406:5,8 406:16 409:11 410:6 413:9 415:11418:22 421:8 422:10,12 422:15,16 431:13 431:22 434:5,12 434:19,20 435:14 435:22 437:19 438:12 439:22 440:1 446:6 448:25 449:11,16 449:20 450:1 452:10,14 453:5 453:11,24 454:4 454:23 455:14 456:5,18 457:14 457:18,23,24 458:3,5 459:16 462:16,25 468:8 469:15 470:15 471:4,24 472:25 474:19 475:12 477:4,7,7 480:21 481:7 482:25 484:9 486:7 489:22 497:6,7 498:13,16 500:4 500:12,13,15 501:16,22 504:6,7 504:20,21 510:20 514:7 515:2,16 516:5,10,18 520:13 523:6 524:17 527:3 531:15,16 534:15 540:20 542:13 543:7 546:3,16,16 546:22 548:17 552:11 553:1,13 553:18 558:20 559:12 560:1,19 560:24 563:3 564:9 568:7 569:13,17 570:14 572:1 573:8 575:3 576:1,12,23 577:22 579:1,10 581:24 582:21 587:16 588:5,11 589:8 591:3 593:7 595:5 596:8,14 600:3 601:6 603:5 605:23 608:11 609:7 610:21 611:19 616:7,22 621:2 622:17,21 623:17 624:14,14 624:15,17,20,22 630:25 634:5 636:10,21 638:3 638:15 641:6,13 641:17 642:2,10 643:2,17 645:11 648:8,9,19 649:3 654:11,12,23 655:3,3,10 657:9 658:1 665:3 667:14 670:2,15 672:14,15 673:14 675:10,19 676:4 676:19 677:13,22 677:24 678:21 679:11,19 680:6 681:25 686:22 687:5 689:6 691:17 693:8 698:3 700:5,6,16 703:15 705:23 710:10,13,20,25 711:15 712:5 713:24 715:14 717:1,15 718:14 719:20 721:6,17 sazad 386:9 scan 479:23 480:1 scanning 453:2 541:2,16 615:7,9 644:24 696:7 704:7 705:12 schaffner 593:6 685:22,25 692:21 714:22 741:12 schaffner's 693:3 scheduled 496:9 611:4 schelz 669:17 720:24 722:18,20 722:22 723:5,9 740:15 schelz's 722:25 schmidt 731:8,13 school 418:23 542:11 543:23 545:16 548:17 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [school - selling] Page 60 551:19 554:5 558:2,6 560:20 570:1,4 637:4,7,10 638:13,24 639:19 642:21644:12 645:7,23 646:5,6 646:13 648:6,12 649:16,21 650:3,8 650:25 719:17,24 720:3 721:13 722:1 723:17 724:19,20 725:7 725:13,25 726:5,9 science 400:12 435:13 566:11,13 573:9,10 590:25 611:9,21612:2 614:4 653:16 660:22 715:4 scientific 387:18 397:24 531:13 535:4,13 561:7 573:18 624:8 634:25 653:2 658:14 660:25 665:24 673:6 691:5 706:16,24 709:13 723:14 scientifically 564:16 705:18 709:14 scientist 396:16 482:12 573:25 574:8 590:7 626:7 653:13 662:20 670:4 scientists 400:7,11 561:9 565:15,23 566:1,10 626:3 638:2,18 652:9 725:22 scope 726:14 Scotland 580:9 screen 562:9 screwed 553:21 557:4 558:12 scribbled 423:13 se 614:19 seana 386:7 search 663:11 second 394:10 431:12 437:18 438:18 439:2 459:16 462:5 463:16 464:1 515:15 522:22 575:2 583:15 623:23 627:24 642:10 646:8 655:4 660:8 714:10 726:10 seconds 396:9 section 561:22 sediment 440:16 see 388:20,21 389:1,3,6,8,20,21 391:3 393:3,4,11 397:21 398:19 399:24 400:16,18 404:3,8 406:12,13 407:7,10 415:1 422:2 423:14 425:14 426:4 427:14 430:19 431:2,13 436:4 437:11,18 439:22 443:7 445:9 447:18 449:16 451:20 452:1 453:17,18 454:4,4 454:8,11 455:7 459:6 465:2 469:9 470:8,13,24 472:22 473:15 484:5 485:16,22 495:16 496:14 497:22 498:10 499:23 505:19,25 508:18 510:8 512:6,10,25 524:11 536:5 539:16 545:23 548:25 558:20,24 559:5 560:1,22 561:24 567:12 574:22 576:20 578:25 579:10,17 581:20 582:18 584:17 586:6 595:22 601:18 607:8 608:4 613:10 622:5,7 623:7,16 624:23 626:15 629:12,18 631:13 632:21 633:13 645:16 647:6 654:2,21 659:13 660:8,10 663:22 673:22,23 675:9,25 679:5,8 697:22 700:4,8 712:14 713:19 714:6 716:3,8,12 718:13 seeing 461:7 671:12 694:25 seek 571:23 581:5 seen 394:6,8 396:1 419:7 423:23 477:21 490:5 502:23 521:10,10 522:5 536:13 543:4 550:19 556:8 572:16 605:7,19 612:17 617:18 619:17,23 621:9 625:19 631:20 632:15,17 634:3 638:13 665:12 670:5 689:20 693:12 696:7 705:10 712:11 718:23 721:11 724:1 sees 475:16 505:5 625:22 seldom 596:5 select 617:21 620:6 selected 438:14 selection 655:5,11 655:17 self 664:13,15 709:13 selikoff 430:24 533:24 534:10 535:3,22 536:21 536:22 564:22 565:10,21 566:8 580:11,14,16,19 580:21 595:15,20 596:3,12 597:21 631:1 721:8 734:12 selikoffs 534:16 535:17 596:11 sell 416:18 629:19 636:2 681:12 719:11 seller 721:21 selling 500:17 501:8 514:14 733:6 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [sells - show] Page 61 sells 719:11 sem 452:23 453:2 474:15 semiquantitative 546:17 semple 415:17,19 717:22 742:18 send 603:6 sending 387:12 496:18 547:21 700:12 senior 494:24 536:11 sense 493:12,13 507:12 508:13 668:24 sensitive 621:20 621:24 622:1 624:5,20 625:3,4 625:21,21 626:16 644:20,23 645:4 705:4,4,9,11,17 712:9,23 713:5,6 sensitivity 480:2 628:2,25 629:1 644:3,23 646:21 653:18,19 686:5 688:20 701:1,2,4 701:20 sensitization 703:22,23 704:24 sent 419:8 428:16 438:19 441:12 446:8 465:16 484:13 552:16 sentence 394:10 483:6 585:1 652:8 704:18 separate 406:21 410:23 437:9 458:10 587:8 627:9 659:24 660:2 separated 640:1 separately 438:20 separates 428:23 separating 725:3 separation 416:4 643:20 September 394:24 395:5 685:24 740:11741:12 series 462:6 499:7 559:17 603:2 serious 479:6 529:3 535:12 573:25 582:6 715:7 717:1 seriously 582:8 666:15 668:16 715:14 serpentine 438:15 438:23 448:16 639:8 730:15 serve 403:10 496:12 672:16 serves 453:8 services 535:17 session 559:4 714:10 sessions 714:9 set 392:18 396:14 417:16421:19 424:11430:10 433:21 438:4 440:21 451:6 458:6 460:21 465:6 468:2 472:18 483:19 487:14 499:15 501:19 505:15 511:19513:17 520:1 523:21 532:9 533:23 535:25 545:12 551:14 559:2 562:17 564:19 569:5 578:22 586:7 590:18 608:1 610:3,11 621:17 633:20 642:15 648:15 651:5 657:15 664:5 669:12 671:22 679:12 705:6 709:20 713:16 726:17 sets 461:8 seven 466:25 554:21 555:1 558:8 563:24 573:23 731:5 severe 402:12 403:21 522:7 sgpblaw.com 383:6,6 shaded 470:20 shampoo 508:15 shannon 381:4 shape 471:19 473:11 480:11 673:7 shards 620:8,13 share 424:3 484:15 602:19 646:7,10 647:17 649:22 sharia 383:9 430:15 505:19 sharla.frost 383:11 sharp 504:25 shb.com 383:17 shchaffner 585:2 she'd 696:10 sheet 536:5 746:1 shefter 710:24 shelf 507:25 554:7 568:4 690:11 shelley 549:11 562:24 563:17,21 564:12,14 565:7 572:13 573:9,11 594:19 600:1 622:11,13 625:9 625:10,12 630:11 735:13 736:7 737:13 sherwin 613:18 shimps 433:24 729:20 ship 517:16 518:25 shipment 661:24 shipments 606:23 ships 517:17 518:20,21 shook 379:16 383:14 short 651:9 shorter 408:20 shorthand 745:7 shortly 484:16 726:13 show 387:16 388:13 428:11 433:19 438:22 444:22 474:22 498:5,6 500:23 559:22 591:17 607:1 626:12 651:11 659:7 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [showed - smokescreen] Page 62 showed 433:3 446:19 477:17 561:1 591:7 593:1 shower 388:17,17 390:17,17 392:10 392:10 412:17,18 441:1,1 583:21,21 670:8,8 671:16,17 showing 405:2 437:22 475:16 477:8 599:16 shown 394:12,14 394:16 471:5 474:13 515:18 564:7 627:17 673:6 678:9 711:24 shows 450:23 473:12 474:15 553:8 651:24 686:18 shulton 385:16,17 385:17,18,18,20 385:20 shupline 679:11 679:22 680:9 shut 720:9 724:18 725:14 shutting 724:10 sic 432:19 434:14 446:13 478:15 564:10 587:19 608:17,21 619:24 639:4 644:13 692:11,24 side 442:17,20 461:2,2 556:19 sidekick 597:15 sides 408:16 579:13 sign 669:14 signature 389:11 391:4 signed 391:7 744:11 745:19 significance 525:6 534:18 535:5 significant 529:11 536:25 silicate 575:12 silverston 692:11 692:24 similar 474:16 477:5 529:9 644:6 645:8 711:22 simmons 385:12 simon 383:3 simple 557:10 601:23 sinai 430:24 534:2 534:3,11,20 536:22 550:11 595:15 630:23 631:1 711:1 single 661:19 697:10 sinking 517:17 518:20,21 sir 387:8 388:9 392:24 404:2 411:17 415:4 421:19 424:23 426:1427:14,19 430:10 433:24 437:6 438:4 439:7 440:5,21 444:7 445:25 446:2 451:6,11,20 458:6 459:6 461:13 462:5 465:6,9,23 467:4 468:2 469:14 471:7 473:21 476:24 481:12 482:4 483:19,22 488:23 495:9 497:21 501:19 505:15,22 511:19,24 512:2 513:17,20 533:23 534:6,7 537:7 545:12,15 569:8,9 572:13 578:22 584:2 586:22 587:17 589:9 591:22 593:5 604:5 608:4 612:23 617:10 620:23 621:17 630:9 633:20 634:1 640:17 642:15 650:22 653:24 657:1,15 659:13 662:20 667:25 671:22 701:5 703:2 705:6 706:8 707:24 709:20 710:9 713:16 718:24 sire 670:21 sit 605:6 674:23 693:24 site 460:24 499:20 655:6,12,17 657:9 sites 412:1 sitting 554:6 situation 529:9 530:24 six 466:25 524:15 546:6,12 547:4 548:18 551:21 553:7,18 554:21 55J:1 557:22 558:8 562:20 648:20 680:7 714:12 size 470:1,6 477:4 527:24 559:18 661:21 673:7 sizes 475:4,4 skin 506:8 522:1 525:2 529:1 653:1 653:3,7 skip 416:12 431:10 482:4 500:5,10 522:16 528:13 535:9 570:15 601:7 679:10 sfide 461:24 462:17,25 463:12 466:19 467:5,13 467:17,21,25 slight 723:1 slim 478:24 480:6 small 390:5 416:21 423:8 424:8 428:10 509:9 510:22 529:6 632:21 smith 423:24 520:5 524:20 534:8 536:15 549:11 569:10,24 594:12 598:14 610:20 630:11 711:5 734:3,11 736:3 737:6,12 738:3 smithfield 384:9 smokes 562:9 smokescreen 562:15 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [smoking - started] smoking 580:14 social 499:7 society 598:20 soft 504:24 sold 403:4 581:1 600:16 soluble 398:1 solutions 380:9 381:9 382:8 somebody 457:10 710:25 someone's 388:5 423:13 707:11 709:2 somewhat 446:23 447:25 643:4 soon 505:9 642:25 sophisticated 602:24 618:18 703:21 704:23 712:20 sophistication 541:18 sorry 389:6 392:21,24 393:4 419:25,25 425:12 430:17 432:23 456:2 499:25 505:18 557:7 566:23 605:17 625:13 633:22 652:7 724:15 sort 400:7 448:3 490:20 494:10 528:3 566:11 619:5,7 634:25 636:1,15 658:23 660:6,16 662:9 669:2 673:21 708:21 712:10 sounded 699:3 sounding 397:25 sounds 458:13 597:7 source 483:7 490:17 491:17 510:22 514:23 518:3 568:21 577:21 580:3 599:16 734:4 sources 480:8 520:8 521:18 636:24 648:25 678:10 734:8 south 384:20 386:3 512:3 spalding 385:22 speak 388:5 417:25 421:14 482:19 512:21 656:15 speaker 461:9 630:17,22 speaking 491:10 662:2 701:21 speaks 657:23 spec 738:15 special 484:25 513:6 516:18,20 518:4 735:22 specialized 573:15 specially 386:10 specialties 386:5 species 401:19 411:21 specific 395:4 411:21 592:24 593:15 601:23 605:17 701:16 720:9 Page 63 specifically 433:13 453:13 533:17 627:6 647:23 684:6,7 specification 490:1 specifications 665:18 specificity 712:18 specify 559:13 577:21 680:14 specimens 724:23 specs 622:6,19 spectra 394:11,12 394:14 395:10 speculate 420:1 434:24 435:10,21 509:6 635:19 speculated 725:10 speculating 725:21 speculation 434:23 511:17 650:16 speculative 435:19 503:3,6,7,18 507:22 509:6,10 515:13 563:14 652:4 spend 667:15,16 668:14 669:6 706:18 spending 667:21 668:8 707:10 spicule 525:10 spike 406:24 407:3 spiked 407:1 409:14 spiking 420:8 spoke 489:20 spoken 489:17 669:20 sponsorship 706:6 squibb 384:17 squiggle 435:3,23 435:25 squiggly 445:1,3 staff 520:25 stage 443:20 503:6 staining 461:25 643:20 648:23 stand 516:22 521:25 693:3 standard 449:3 464:16 470:21,21 533:3 543:10 546:18 553:6,11 553:24 554:3,8 584:16,24 619:1 632:9,13 633:5 641:21 661:13 692:19 712:24 standards 554:7 631:9,10 633:11 standing 480:15 standpoint 676:21 682:25 stands 551:11 603:8 679:19 721:19 Stanley 615:3 stanton 423:8 424:8,12,15,17 673:8 starch 621:3 start 404:18,23 489:12 595:10 657:8 704:5 started 388:9 468:18 493:23 515:3 516:6 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [started - subsequent] Page 64 720:11,12,15 starting 482:9 641:17 718:25 722:9 starts 482:9 631:18 660:9 676:18 711:17 state 379:1 435:9 486:25 490:2 522:24 531:12 533:7,12 540:12 543:18 547:11 576:7 577:24 612:9 673:17 674:4 stated 538:4 542:14 567:16 568:9 576:17 629:14 631:10 633:4,9 671:2 692:7,18 statement 422:3 422:10 433:12 538:24 540:16 541:6 585:4 590:5 590:8,10,11 633:14,16 654:8 statements 421:23 423:25 617:19 633:8 states 384:22 411:5 454:14,19 455:2 457:1 461:20 468:16 477:11 492:2 499:3 501:4 511:3 523:11 539:14 551:13 617:17 666:10 676:2 679:23 stating 411:14 474:6 522:15 528:10 540:22 593:22 599:11 612:4 673:19 station 483:25 484:11,22 487:13 487:14 489:2 508:8 509:5 statistical 686:6 statistically 661:20 status 672:14,16 740:20 stayed 509:11 510:6 522:10 steal 583:1 Steinberg 741:22 step 455:25 607:12 616:24 634:9 656:8 694:8 steps 535:13 sieve 489:13 732:12 steven 482:14 484:6489:1490:7 493:1 496:24 732:16 stewart 549:14 550:5 583:24 stick 667:5 stickers 640:11 stock 463:15,16,16 463:20,20 464:1,1 stockholders 422:4 stop 488:15 525:16 529:12 564:1 648:12 stopped 558:2 stops 393:6 stored 507:20 story 484:1 485:1 485:4 581:12 595:3 597:17 612:16 613:23 614:8 737:8 straight 435:6 558:18 603:16 606:1 609:24 strategy 431:14,17 612:2 street 379:16 383:10,15,20 384:9 385:4,9,23 386:3,17 587:4 strenuously 717:16 stressed 416:13 strictly 705:23 710:13 strong 403:1 693:3 strongly 402:9 403:19 structure 420:24 421:4 525:11,12 527:23 stuart 391:6 450:2 450:23 451:2 670:3,16 studies 430:23 540:7 543:2 561:1 570:17,17,18 589:10 592:25 683:25 684:5 706:3,6,7,9,19 707:1,22 708:11 711:20 742:6 study 400:3 407:12 419:8 430:25 438:21 479:11 532:9,15 532:21 552:7 575:4 577:15 648:13 673:9 706:16 711:20 724:10 studying 399:7 421:3,6 665:25 672:6 stuff 431:10447:8 458:15 521:10 538:2 544:11 547:21 555:22 562:6 645:16 stun 446:13,14,15 sub 619:13 642:3 644:10 645:13 648:1 724:14 subcommittee 660:24 686:3 691:22 697:16 713:20 715:6 716:14,16,19 741:15,20 742:12 742:15 subject 393:14 415:5 490:10 520:7 525:4 570:8 579:24 595:2 599:8 613:2 616:5 630:14 653:25 691:21 submissions 731:10,15 submitted 461:23 591:11 subparts 473:22 subscribed 746:21 subsequent 553:6 583:16,24 613:17 634:10 656:5 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [subsequently - talc] Page 65 subsequently 438:20 subset 410:13 subsidiary 379:6,6 substance 396:17 396:18 601:17 substances 601:25 substantial 397:15 411:25 526:23 531:1 686:18 substantially 418:8 543:12 success 634:14 716:14 successful 417:8 successor 380:8,9 381:8,9 382:7,8 385:17,18,20 sued 380:8 381:8 382:7 385:16,18 385:19 suffer 526:7 suggest 515:6,24 722:7 suggested 484:15 706:23 714:25 716:16 suggesting 406:9 506:25 530:14 533:22 688:22 689:3 suggestion 483:6 489:24 535:10 569:25 715:7 suggestions 496:15 suggests 603:2 suitable 615:5 suite 383:4,10,15 384:9,14,20 385:14,23 386:8 386:17 summarize 490:22 summarized 582:1 summarizes 461:21 summary 390:20 390:21 401:17 425:14 581:23,24 716:15 736:18 sunberg's 636:13 superimportant 664:24 superior 379:1 380:1 381:1 382:1 682:15 supplement 735:17 supplements 565:7 supplied 395:8 403:4 supplier 478:17 517:3 supply 436:15 support 448:2 499:6 600:6 646:12 666:14 667:22 668:4,15 suppose 604:11 supposed 473:17 supposition 466:8 486:10 suppressing 409:6 suppression 398:14 399:1,3 400:3 415:7 620:10 672:7,23 674:3,12 684:14 sure 391:20 394:25 399:19 400:19 406:14 416:11423:22 428:21 445:16 447:16 458:14 487:24 538:4 544:16 575:22 581:2 594:8,8 601:4 603:4 607:12 609:22,22 615:15 618:19 619:22,22 624:11 644:14 645:25 647:12 648:14 651:17 659:8,10 662:14 667:12 710:8 719:5,7 722:23 723:7 surfaces 411:25 surgical 573:15 603:8 surprise 556:14,22 surrounding 651:14 survey 513:24 514:8,9 733:24 suspicion 673:11 674:19,22,22 sutcliffe 385:2 sworn 746:21 symposium 548:13 611:4 630:14,16 735:3 738:19 system 398:15,25 415:15 648:23 672:7,21 673:15 673:16,19 674:10 675:3 systems 397:1,15 398:2 402:9 403:2 403:19 406:18 407:14 643:7 644:11645:14 648:2 728:17 ________ t________ t 384:8 413:15 419:1 546:2,2 728:7 table 401:8 439:23 440:15 444:20 456:19461:21 470:13,13 471:5 471:21472:22 475:1 476:12,12 507:21 678:9 tabulation 439:4 tails 467:7,9 take 392:21 395:23 399:12 436:12 440:12 448:7 451:7 479:14,24 496:11 518:17 532:6 548:9 572:8,8 603:5 604:3,4 605:25 607:22 611:7 640:11 661:23 662:21 684:1 693:14 694:3 709:24 taken 379:15 425:17 433:8 438:18 466:14 661:19 662:11 744:4 745:5 takes 479:13 485:4 532:15 539:1 631:11 talc 384:12 386:19 387:12,22 388:14 388:23 389:22 390:5 391:12 393:16 397:9 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [talc - talk] Page 66 399:14,20,20 402:13,25 403:22 410:4,7,10,15,16 410:20 412:17,20 415:14 416:4 418:7 419:6,12 420:6,7,11,16 421:4,24 422:15 422:17 425:1,5,9 426:21 427:16,25 429:15 431:13,17 432:3 438:17 440:24 441:8,12 441:20,21442:14 443:9,11,19 444:1 446:7,23,24 447:4 447:5,11,13 448:15 449:3,9,17 450:5 452:11,12 453:7 455:22 456:24 457:16,20 458:7,8,9,10 459:21 460:14 461:22 465:2,18 465:21 466:4,7,16 470:16 474:8,9 475:3,7 478:17 479:5,8,10 480:7 483:7 484:2 489:25 490:19 491:2,8 492:15 494:1,2,4,11,16,25 496:10,13 500:17 504:23,24 505:10 505:12 507:5 509:12 511:16 513:9 514:23 515:3,4,7,12,25,25 516:11 517:4,7,24 518:10 519:15,18 519:22,22 520:8 520:10,25 521:11 521:18,21 522:14 523:3,24 524:24 525:10,15 526:1,5 526:5,23 527:1,22 529:2,6,10 531:2,9 532:8 535:10 539:3 540:19 541:7 542:15 543:2,9,12,16,22 544:2,10,18,20,24 544:25 545:9 546:5,13 547:21 548:8 550:23 551:12 552:16 554:13 560:12 563:5 567:11,22 567:25 568:21 570:17,25 571:5 571:11,21 572:2 574:25 575:11,12 575:19 576:16,25 577:16,16,22,22 577:24,25 585:8 585:16 587:24 588:8,14 589:2,4 590:8 591:18 593:8 595:3,7,10 595:13 596:5 598:8,19,22 599:16 600:10,11 600:17,25 601:7 601:10,22 603:9 606:3 610:5,22,25 611:4,11,16,22 612:3 613:2,19,20 614:15,17,19,20 614:21,23 615:10 616:6 618:11,22 619:2,9 620:7,7,12 620:24,24 621:15 622:6,20,25 623:7 623:19,22,25 624:3,22 629:13 629:19 630:14 631:10,13,21,24 632:2,4 633:9,10 634:10,21 635:7,8 635:21,24 636:24 636:24 638:20,21 639:7,16,25 640:1 641:22,23,25,25 642:11,22 643:7 644:2,11,21 645:9 645:14 646:13,14 646:14,21 647:5 647:19 648:2,7,23 648:25 649:23,23 651:10,12,24 654:9,15 655:6,13 655:25 656:16,22 657:13,16 658:2,8 658:23 659:6 660:24 662:3 664:7 665:1,6,11 665:18,18,19,25 666:1,2,7 672:17 675:4 677:12 678:24 680:1,1 681:12 682:6,15 684:8,23 686:3,6 686:13,19 687:1,2 687:7,8,12 688:7,8 689:8,9,16 691:21 692:8 693:14 697:16 700:2,23 703:16,19 705:9 706:3,6 708:5,18 709:3 711:25 712:8 713:19 718:19,25 719:10 719:11 720:6 721:20 724:8,8,14 724:23,23 726:11 728:12,15 729:7,9 730:12,14 731:5 731:10,15 732:16 732:20 733:6 734:4,8,17 735:5 735:11,12,14,22 736:10,18 737:8 737:13,18 738:4,8 738:12,16,18 739:8 740:4,10,13 740:16 741:15,19 741:23 742:5,12 742:15 talcosis 525:13 526:16 574:18 talcs 389:17 440:25 451:13 452:7 462:8 469:4 469:16,18,24,25 479:12 480:10 481:4,10 504:22 521:19 522:2,5 570:25 571:2,3 600:6 633:6 639:12 641:24 643:9 663:16 676:23 730:21 731:20 732:4 talcum 431:19 500:23 503:15,21 510:16,21,25 522:8 559:14 576:14,18 577:9 670:19 720:23 721:9 733:14 talk 419:25 435:13 440:15 442:16 485:13 493:24 504:14 567:6 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [talk - texas] Page 67 603:24 624:8 633:2 652:10 659:20 677:14 724:4,21 talked 400:24 408:7 414:10 415:7 451:2 456:8 469:21 482:14 489:11 526:15 533:19 548:1 562:5 570:11 587:12 604:5 613:4 621:18 626:2 634:2 640:21 642:18 670:3 677:20 689:25 690:1 695:4 704:6,7 talking 398:8 405:18 406:24 428:21 430:23,24 430:25 431:5 432:2,5 439:6 447:7 456:14 471:13 479:17,20 490:18 504:15 505:22 522:17 539:18 543:17 559:3 567:12 572:19,23 583:17 601:6 602:5 613:13 614:4 623:12 627:12 629:1 632:12 634:15,24 640:18 646:16 648:5 649:23 651:14 652:22 657:2,3,6 676:18 679:3,7 680:16 681:1,2 694:20 718:16 talks 726:8 taped 675:12 task 496:14 703:16 taught 631:11 team 518:22,23 technical 416:1 658:25 659:1 666:13 667:22 668:3,15 706:17 728:10 technically 415:23 502:16 503:17 626:12 technician 595:12 technique 434:25 463:13 466:21 601:8,23 606:2,10 615:14 618:6 620:6 623:23 624:1 644:19 645:8,16 648:7 649:6 653:2 techniques 401:6 452:12 550:12 602:22 603:18 618:10,19 623:18 643:20 703:21 704:23 712:20 technology 558:21 634:9 telephone 379:7 384:2 385:2 386:2 638:17 telephonically 386:21 television 484:11 484:21 487:13,14 489:2 tell 423:4 460:22 483:1 528:6 545:4 557:24 577:7 583:2 646:17 676:14 686:12 688:5 telling 435:1 440:5 493:1 547:22 588:12 630:1 664:1 687:7,22 689:1,17 tells 413:22 453:21 475:24 551:5 telofski 482:11,24 tem 541:24 628:13 700:18 701:20 705:3 731:6 ten 414:7 434:22 434:22,24 435:7 435:18 437:22 464:9 467:1 537:13 626:25 627:19 629:25 tend 405:3 448:2 tendency 475:13 tenet 400:12 tenovus 430:23 595:11 tens 464:22 tentative 535:6 665:16 term 396:16 519:24 523:18 537:8 561:7 637:8 656:15 terminology 696:5 terms 425:22 564:15 573:1 652:10 662:2 terrible 668:12 test 416:25 431:24 443:15,16 450:6 450:11,13,15 455:24 456:1,3 463:15,16,16,20 463:20 464:1,1,6 466:13,14 484:12 485:10486:19 532:19 533:3 554:11 555:9 591:23 602:8 603:11 604:3,5,12 605:25 637:20 653:11,13 661:14 661:15 663:6,13 663:21,22 673:2 681:15 702:11 726:10 tested 388:11,24 416:17 442:25 443:16,24 444:2 485:7,8 617:3 690:10 692:9 testify 680:4 681:6 testimony 744:4 745:4,9 testing 391:18 432:5 436:13,13 441:25 442:14 451:3 598:20 603:3 663:15 693:13 698:5 715:11 729:21 730:4,8 tests 409:25 416:14 450:21 533:9 599:15 609:1 672:24 680:25 teuscher 381:3,4 385:11 386:5 746:3 texas 383:5,10,16 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [text - today] Page 68 text 572:17 574:7 thackston 384:13 thank 392:25 423:3 430:13 437:7 438:7 446:1 448:13 469:7 482:8 484:24 501:20 511:25 671:25 710:7 thanks 505:21 theirs 647:5 theme 712:10 theoretical 503:1 674:14 686:7 theoretically 502:21 503:17 537:20 700:21 721:21 thereof 744:6 therm al 450:8,10 678:18 thermo 678:17 thesis 632:15 thin 584:5 thing 406:14 465:2 491:14 509:15 543:4 566:12 618:1621:14 652:8,14,15 659:8 687:20 715:19 726:2 things 506:22 544:15 597:20 617:21 630:21 667:9 678:19 701:3 704:15 724:13 725:1 think 387:20 395:2 399:12 406:23 418:25 423:10,10 429:1 450:8 463:23 479:6 481:8 490:22 494:2 499:22 507:15 509:7 512:8 533:11 536:10 551:6 552:10 557:3,19 559:1 583:8 586:6,12 590:8 605:10 607:4 608:20 626:1627:21 634:8 639:23 640:10 643:14 647:15 648:10 656:24 657:23 664:19 668:7,10 674:20 678:11 684:4 693:14 694:6 695:16,24 696:18 697:10 698:23 701:16 712:5 718:23 726:1 thinking 703:3 third 384:4 446:18 thomas 736:7 thompson 478:24 480:6 524:11 532:1 533:17 734:7 thoroughly 692:8 thought 388:6 407:21 419:22 506:17 614:21 658:6 thoughts 424:3 570:20,24 646:8 thousand 392:7,8 392:10 414:6,7 thousandth 662:17 three 413:6 430:2 440:17 446:7,21 452:11 454:4,11 462:14 464:2 466:25 467:21 478:9 552:2,25 553:14 555:3 557:24 573:24 579:9 582:2 602:22 642:20,20 655:21 656:24 699:9,10 718:23 threshold 687:14 throw 669:13 thrust 618:16 641:14 thumb 505:8 tight 665:17 tightly 506:7 time 387:4 394:8 400:8 401:3 402:13 403:23 412:18,21 441:6 444:12 461:9 479:14,24 480:8 480:12 489:5,9 491:13 494:7,21 495:24 502:6 506:16 509:19,22 512:18 531:12,20 533:6,9,12 536:10 537:14 539:25 540:3,9,13 541:12 542:25 545:8 554:19 555:4,16 556:21 557:11 570:20 577:12 583:3,8 586:13 587:23 588:3 597:10 635:12 638:5 651:2 669:13 670:18 671:14 676:7,12 692:20 693:19 701:10 713:4 716:18,19 717:6 717:10,23 720:2 timely 658:6 times 409:5 414:6 414:7 435:7,9,9,18 435:19 472:18 556:10 557:16 621:10 626:25 627:19 629:25 633:3 670:5 681:16 689:20 719:8 725:9 timing 422:14 683:5 tina 379:3 tinto 478:18 tiny 492:3 504:24 662:22 701:3,3,3 tissue 523:14 534:24,25 535:6 tissues 532:12 534:18 535:11 title 389:16 393:17 482:15 590:24 595:4 tlv 686:8 tm 524:11 734:7 today 387:4 388:9 451:2 555:17 556:17,18,24 572:4 597:18 605:6 613:5 615:2 620:23 670:3 693:25 727:1 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [toiletry - true] Page 69 toiletry 686:2 told 479:7 480:6 490:10 544:4,19 550:2 551:19 553:16 557:14 571:10 581:12 626:1 644:12 645:23 646:6 649:12 698:17 702:24 tolerance 451:12 589:5,21 tons 538:2 662:4,7 top 389:16,21 393:23 431:13 451:24 470:7,12 495:2 496:23 515:16 522:22 558:20 559:12,25 575:23 578:25 595:23 608:11 697:17 698:3 710:13,16,20 topic 712:1 total 398:1439:9 543:13 589:1 608:15 totally 545:2 600:16,18 620:21 652:1 694:13 touch 613:5 tough 558:17 tower 383:15 toxicological 585:5,13 toxicologist 489:19 toxicologists 586:3 toxicology 482:15 483:4 720:25 toy 507:3,12 508:22 tr 547:6 trace 454:13,17 455:3 456:22 522:2 528:2,8 539:13 547:5,6 553:10 568:25,25 569:1 619:13 642:3 644:10 645:13 648:1 695:2 724:14 traces 475:7 track 597:5 tracks 619:7 trade 493:2,7,13 495:25 497:4,5 659:14 tradem ark 582:22 582:23 583:5,9,13 tradem arks 582:7 583:1 tragedy 510:23 trained 505:5 601:24 602:23 603:24 transcribed 675:16 745:7 transcript 745:5,8 transcription 744:6 transfer 636:13 transferring 634:7 translate 423:1 transmission 401:5 446:22 447:17 485:22 486:22 541:17 628:16 632:17,25 700:19 702:21 704:7,7 705:13 transmits 719:22 travel 444:12 travis 383:15 treat 507:12 633:12 treated 415:15 treatm ent 401:9 tremolite 387:14 387:20,21 388:2 390:8,18 392:3,13 392:15,16 394:15 395:16 407:4,22 413:15 419:5,9,12 420:5 421:4 423:7 423:17,18 424:7 426:15,18 430:8 453:13,18 470:16 473:13 474:14 475:5,7 520:25 521:5,11,19,23 522:5,14,17,24 523:2,7,8,16,23 524:4,25 528:2,17 528:23 529:11,14 529:23 531:2 533:18 539:13,23 539:23 540:1,3,4,5 540:8,21 541:1,7 543:17,23 544:5 544:20 545:5 546:20,22,25 547:2,12,12,23 548:8,17 551:20 552:20,24 554:4 557:22 567:10,21 567:25 568:4,12 568:17,20 575:12 589:13,18 592:3,4 592:9,13 593:2,7 593:14 598:22 599:7,10,12,16 600:6,10,11 602:21 611:8 613:22 614:5,16 614:20,22 618:11 619:14 620:7,17 623:1,3,7,19,25 624:3,23,24 626:16,21 627:7,9 627:10 641:24 642:4 643:10 644:21 647:6,7 670:10 671:8,19 689:25 690:1 695:20,21,23,25 696:3,11 703:18 711:23,25 tremolitic 577:16 577:24 trial 397:1 398:21 404:5 728:18 tried 610:6 713:9 tries 686:12 trillions 464:22 troublesome 602:20 troy 476:9,14 481:5 true 406:10 429:18,19 449:7 454:9 467:17,25 468:1 469:22 475:15 480:15,25 510:14,15 519:18 520:10 535:22 537:11 559:23 564:2 565:2 567:1 584:2 589:9 590:12 591:20 593:16 620:23 637:9 663:18 671:20 679:2,20 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [true - use] Page 70 711:25 718:10,11 744:5 745:8 trusted 499:5 tru th 529:22 try 387:13 400:8,8 423:1 502:17 505:8 604:8 610:24 698:14,18 trying 410:23 479:5 519:14,15 599:10 611:15 614:4 698:10 tucker 383:9 tuckerellis.com 383:11 turn 389:3,20 391:11 393:2,3,4 395:2 400:20 404:2 405:7 426:1 432:15 439:20 440:15 444:20 448:24 452:1 455:23 462:6 469:14 470:7 474:25 478:8 559:25 579:9 622:10 630:21 660:5 673:4 712:21 714:12 716:11 turned 512:23 turning 512:21 turns 514:18 tv 483:25 488:15 twenty 510:25 577:8 two 392:22 394:22 397:14 407:13 410:23 422:9 426:8 427:3 430:2 430:14,16 432:25 435:9 436:5 437:22 438:12,16 440:17 454:8 458:11 460:5,12 462:13 463:7 465:12 466:25 467:20 474:21,22 495:16 510:25 522:3 532:15 577:9 591:11 616:10 623:18 628:11 633:22,23 636:17 641:7 654:8 658:20 681:14 697:23 705:10 711:4 714:9 718:23 719:22 724:2 725:3 743:4 type 422:19 428:6 474:21,22 486:7 521:24 522:21 523:8,9 525:1,12 527:23 553:6,9,24 554:3 611:9,20 617:9 623:1 624:3 624:24 types 414:1474:21 474:22 486:7 528:15 554:9,9 677:19 typical 404:15 470:2,6 typically 507:20 539:16 662:5,6 typo 479:14_____ u u 405:21 518:20 519:2 ultimately 425:9 530:12 700:11 720:9 ultra 701:1,2,4,20 ultrawet 404:14 405:13,21 409:5 682:1 um bra 522:6 umbrella 722:21 un 446:7 unable 415:16 unacceptable 449:1 unavoidable 528:2 unbeneficiated 446:23 447:25 understand 390:23 471:7 473:21 486:8 513:7 518:22 523:18 600:19 628:6 636:4 639:24 646:23 657:14 662:21 680:16 692:12 697:1 understanding 407:25,25 436:14 442:22 448:5 460:25 461:4 470:11 515:8 600:12 611:15 662:3,10 664:8 understands 646:20 understood 537:10,17 656:17 undertaken 663:11 undisclosed 495:22 unduly 536:24 726:1 unfounded 666:2 unify 610:25 unilever 384:22 unit 661:24,24 united 379:17 384:22 492:2 499:3 679:23 university 534:1 569:23 570:2 573:10 723:19 unjust 529:5 unnecessary 718:22 unreasonable 726:2 unreliable 607:14 unusual 416:21 508:23 555:11 556:6 571:22 581:4 637:24 663:19 704:4 update 716:20 upgrade 563:5,13 upper 576:7 urban 570:3 urged 402:9 403:19 716:17 urges 661:5 urging 661:7 usa 595:3,12 597:6 737:9 usage 527:25 530:4 531:4 usbm 611:1 use 401:11,18 402:9,13 403:2,19 403:22 406:17 410:24,24 412:9 412:20 416:5 422:4 432:9 458:2 479:9 493:7,13 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [use - waiter] Page 71 499:4 500:7,13,13 501:2,8,16 502:12 502:18 506:6,7,8 507:9 508:13 519:8,14 532:2,7 533:8 539:3 540:8 541:1 568:18 570:25 571:6 572:3 604:23 606:2,4,12,14 613:19 614:4 621:20,23 623:6 625:20 633:5,12 639:21 640:2 643:19 653:4,10 653:18 660:12 665:11 672:18 675:2 682:6 695:6 695:25 708:2 718:25 719:9 723:15 usefulness 617:14 useless 615:8,10 615:17 users 700:23 uses 550:12 582:19 606:9 641:23 656:17 661:24 usp 450:18 usually 435:3 632:5 661:24 691:17 utilize 441:7 634:9 682:5 utilized 712:20 utilizing 670:18 v v 746:3 val 517:7 valid 706:17 validated 696:23 705:19 713:7,8,13 validation 653:20 663:23 696:25 validity 661:18 662:16 value 493:19 494:19 635:21 670:17 values 687:14 van 492:20 vanderbilt 598:9 598:10,17 599:9 599:11 600:10,12 600:16 610:15,16 610:16,23 611:9 611:15,21,24 612:19 613:6,20 614:4,14,25 615:21 737:14 738:5 Vanderbilt's 610:24 612:2,9 613:23 614:21 variation 618:9 varies 471:19 varieties 522:19 559:18 variety 595:9 various 461:22 490:18 526:19 532:11 544:15 555:25 557:17 559:22 597:15 601:11 713:10 varying 641:24 663:18 ventilation 576:19 venture 676:20 verbal 490:6 verbally 726:12 verbatim 745:9 verdolotti 382:3 746:3 verify 651:16 veritext 746:1 Vermont 394:11 394:13,16 395:19 397:9 410:17 412:21,23 415:14 419:6,12 420:6,7 420:11,16 421:4 446:4 476:7 480:22,25 481:4 481:12 520:10,10 543:9 546:5,6,18 547:21 548:8 552:7,16 589:3 591:19 600:25 603:5 623:1,7,22 624:3,22 644:21 728:15 737:17 vernon 403:13 434:1,2 460:23 461:1 616:9 versed 570:14 version 654:20 655:10 701:13 versus 428:15 458:7 vertical 635:15,25 636:5 vice 715:3 video 379:10 videographer 386:25 387:2 view 397:17 479:15,16,18 522:25 535:10 542:14 577:1 598:20 599:9 614:13 647:15 views 613:6 vintage 504:10 vision 385:14 visit 418:14 565:8 658:5 729:4 735:18 visited 497:21 616:8 visual 440:3 visualized 584:5 visually 596:4 viz 565:11 voice 586:15 vol 746:4,20 volunteer 725:12 vp 660:22 vs 379:5 380:6 381:6 382:5 vulnerability 673:11 674:18 vulnerable 674:22 w w 384:9 579:1 585:7,7 634:7 636:11 658:12 wagner 423:8 424:8 wait 702:24 707:9 walcott 536:6 542:6 734:14,16 walk 556:19 walked 556:18 walker 386:2 485:2 wall 385:9 Wallace 741:22 waiter 400:23,24 405:11 413:3 433:25 699:17 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [use - waiter] Page 71 499:4 500:7,13,13 501:2,8,16 502:12 502:18 506:6,7,8 507:9 508:13 519:8,14 532:2,7 533:8 539:3 540:8 541:1 568:18 570:25 571:6 572:3 604:23 606:2,4,12,14 613:19 614:4 621:20,23 623:6 625:20 633:5,12 639:21 640:2 643:19 653:4,10 653:18 660:12 665:11 672:18 675:2 682:6 695:6 695:25 708:2 718:25 719:9 723:15 usefulness 617:14 useless 615:8,10 615:17 users 700:23 uses 550:12 582:19 606:9 641:23 656:17 661:24 usp 450:18 usually 435:3 632:5 661:24 691:17 utilize 441:7 634:9 682:5 utilized 712:20 utilizing 670:18 v v 746:3 val 517:7 valid 706:17 validated 696:23 705:19 713:7,8,13 validation 653:20 663:23 696:25 validity 661:18 662:16 value 493:19 494:19 635:21 670:17 values 687:14 van 492:20 vanderbilt 598:9 598:10,17 599:9 599:11600:10,12 600:16 610:15,16 610:16,23 611:9 611:15,21,24 612:19 613:6,20 614:4,14,25 615:21 737:14 738:5 Vanderbilt's 610:24 612:2,9 613:23 614:21 variation 618:9 varies 471:19 varieties 522:19 559:18 variety 595:9 various 461:22 490:18 526:19 532:11 544:15 555:25 557:17 559:22 597:15 601:11 713:10 varying 641:24 663:18 ventilation 576:19 venture 676:20 verbal 490:6 verbally 726:12 verbatim 745:9 verdolotti 382:3 746:3 verify 651:16 veritext 746:1 Vermont 394:11 394:13,16 395:19 397:9 410:17 412:21,23 415:14 419:6,12 420:6,7 420:11,16 421:4 446:4 476:7 480:22,25 481:4 481:12 520:10,10 543:9 546:5,6,18 547:21 548:8 552:7,16 589:3 591:19 600:25 603:5 623:1,7,22 624:3,22 644:21 728:15 737:17 vernon 403:13 434:1,2 460:23 461:1 616:9 versed 570:14 version 654:20 655:10 701:13 versus 428:15 458:7 vertical 635:15,25 636:5 vice 715:3 video 379:10 videographer 386:25 387:2 view 397:17 479:15,16,18 522:25 535:10 542:14 577:1 598:20 599:9 614:13 647:15 views 613:6 vintage 504:10 vision 385:14 visit 418:14 565:8 658:5 729:4 735:18 visited 497:21 616:8 visual 440:3 visualized 584:5 visually 596:4 viz 565:11 voice 586:15 vol 746:4,20 volunteer 725:12 vp 660:22 vs 379:5 380:6 381:6 382:5 vulnerability 673:11 674:18 vulnerable 674:22 ________w_______ w 384:9 579:1 585:7,7 634:7 636:11 658:12 wagner 423:8 424:8 wait 702:24 707:9 walcott 536:6 542:6 734:14,16 walk 556:19 walked 556:18 walker 386:2 485:2 wall 385:9 Wallace 741:22 waiter 400:23,24 405:11413:3 433:25 699:17 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [want - Windsor] Page 72 want 387:21 392:8 394:24 400:3 418:2,3 419:21 434:23 435:18 445:14 462:19 463:4 483:16 493:14,17 498:5 500:6,13,23 508:15,16 557:5 560:3,7,10 582:5 597:4 621:20,23 630:20 648:5,6 701:3,5 714:16 723:20,21 726:18 wanted 388:2 464:11 484:11 541:12 567:10 646:4 653:10 673:15 724:25 wants 646:2 647:10,11,12 war 517:15 527:9 warner 532:22 warning 501:15 501:21,24 506:2,6 506:22 511:14 513:14 633:14,16 733:11 warnings 505:23 washed 461:25 Washington 385:4 552:13 587:4 611:5 675:13 741:5,16 wax 662:9 way 399:7,14 417:19,21 418:7 433:17 436:4 458:7 472:8 473:22 488:15 490:17 502:13 505:7 509:19 526:15 539:15 544:20 547:22 548:10 555:13 557:24 562:13 573:19 578:15 582:5 587:11 597:16 603:19 625:11 626:8 628:13,15 629:6 675:4 698:22 699:13 707:22 725:22 745:16 ways 603:2 666:1 wcd000162 742:17 we've 400:24 419:7 441:19 460:2 477:3 482:14 483:24 521:10,10 536:13 539:25 550:19 559:2 570:11 587:12 589:9 597:13 617:3,18 619:17,18,23 621:9 629:1 632:4 638:13 640:1 665:12 670:5 679:3 680:23 689:20,25 690:1 693:12 695:11 696:7 705:10 709:22 712:10 717:23 weak 614:22 weakness 602:19 624:9 wear 556:25 website 497:22 498:5 500:22 732:22 733:3,5 websites 499:6 Wednesday 379:12 598:16 744:4 745:6 week 436:5 484:10 484:25 538:3 567:18 weekly 436:7 442:22 443:22,24 444:2 600:24 700:12,12 737:17 weeks 487:5,9,11 557:18 weight 409:18 454:12,23 455:9 455:18 464:18 486:12 585:6,7,9,9 585:10,10,14,15 686:23 weighted 692:20 weissler 567:8 568:11,14 584:9 584:13 593:7 596:22 615:7 welfare 586:24 587:2,7 588:13 590:4,14 659:18 659:22 736:23 went 432:2 495:13 502:6 506:12 556:3 573:5 629:16 630:16 641:11 650:9 657:17 670:22,23 673:18,20 699:3 west 385:23 wet 458:25 585:7 678:19 wh 513:24 wha 451:24 whichever 458:17 white 556:25 whitlock 654:4 739:17 Whittaker 380:10 381:10 382:9 383:19 386:10 549:4 whoops 554:18 widely 641:24 wider 691:15 widespread 530:5 width 474:7 wife 699:18 wildly 663:18 william 384:8 451:23 630:22 648:18,19 william.polaski 384:11 williams 613:18 willing 503:13 535:3 584:11 725:12 wind 722:19 723:4 Windsor 397:1,7 397:12,16 399:6 401:20 403:14 407:12 415:13 424:23 425:17 432:17 434:2 436:11,12 438:9 441:2,14,23,24 442:8,13 444:18 458:23 459:7,21 459:24 462:8 466:24 468:18 476:4 480:21,24 591:18 616:6,11 636:1 641:8 672:19 673:15 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [Windsor - yeah] Page 73 681:23 682:13 728:18 729:21 730:4,8 731:9,14 731:14 738:12 741:8 Windsor's 402:24 wing 634:25 wish 587:18 600:5 634:13 644:14 645:25 withdraw 571:3 witness 396:8 445:15 496:7 511:25 574:12 641:1671:24 725:21 728:3 745:4 746:4 wmi 459:12,18 460:12,13 730:11 731:4 wondered 711:23 712:19 wondering 646:9 word 412:7 483:16 494:10,12,13 534:25 540:8 561:17 568:11,18 572:14 582:19 583:4,5 592:16 595:22 616:24 647:1 655:20 668:20 680:12 695:25 707:16,18 723:15 words 403:6 410:24 528:5 563:15 568:14 597:11 635:2 645:4 646:2 656:17 689:10,11 707:7 708:13 722:22 723:6 work 387:13 388:22 400:11 403:1 429:6 490:23 491:11,19 531:1,16,21 533:22 535:3 553:6 560:12 588:3 624:9 628:9 639:1,6,20 650:12 671:2 690:18 713:11 720:4,9 721:4,14,22 724:22 725:5,14 worked 429:11,18 429:21 508:2 570:3 583:2 629:5 629:6 worker 576:2,14 576:17 workers 537:12 580:20 working 485:1 489:7 495:12 496:10,13 497:15 575:19 576:6 577:17 578:17 581:6 640:3 687:15 702:10 workplace 632:13 works 596:3 663:22 world 492:2 517:15 527:9 worldwide 478:17 482:18 657:18 658:1 740:4 worried 444:25 724:12 worry 528:7 worse 631:21,23 worst 696:10 worth 707:10,13 write 392:17 414:16 426:19 427:16 439:8 461:17 481:14,24 488:3 531:25 532:5 556:11 564:1 583:4 707:24 723:20,21 writer 402:10 403:13 writes 419:2 438:3 478:22 482:24 523:22 524:17 552:6 553:17 569:24 571:8 587:10 600:1 669:22 writing 416:8 478:15 598:14 688:13 702:3 722:22,23 written 426:14,23 427:8 436:3 441:16,22 442:7 465:25 466:1 474:18 475:20 476:6 515:24 562:16 564:18,18 579:8 582:14 607:17 608:5 611:13 624:2 642:8 644:13,17 645:24 666:17 673:13,22,23,24 wrong 532:1 555:21 590:1 639:9 692:19 wrongfully 530:9 wrote 412:11,13 412:14 420:2 452:1 496:4 532:5 539:15,17 540:9 557:13 561:11,13 684:14,15 687:9 702:6 708:4 724:9 wt 560:20 wyeth 385:18,19 X X 394:11,12 395:10 399:25 425:16 452:19,23 455:13,24 502:2 543:11 546:4,17 553:6 575:7,8 6V 0V 1X *9 603*i 16i \ J 604:9 606:2 608:17,21 609:9 622:24 623:20 624-1 678-22 630:2 6399 678-17 6Q8-7 728:1,7 xii 710-11 742-9 v r a v SSO-14 xrd 395:11,16 414:4,6,7,10 463:13 486:15 547:13 627:12 629:7,9,24 679:16 680:17,19 681:11 694:18,21 y y 399:25 yada 725:10,11,11 yates 391:6 yeah 391:5,8,10,15 391:20 394:22 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - 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