Document 821mMZDLRpNJRaLMxGXYDyvxZ

OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT PROCEEDINGS BEFORE THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT CENTRAL DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA THE 3250 WIL3KIRE BOULEVARD BUILDING, et al. Plaintiff, vs. METROPOLITAN LIFE INSURANCE COMPANY, et al. Defendants. X No. 87-06043 WM3 (CKX.-:) X Deposition of WILLIAM V. CULVER Seattle, Washington December 12, 1938 ALDERSON REPORTING1 COMPANY 20 F Street, N.W. Washington, D. G 2CC01 (202) 62S-92CG (SCO) 367-3376 PAGE / of / ERRATA SHEET FOR THE TRANSCRIPT OF: Page // CASE NAME: <QJ /> P Av > 4 J Aj / (t f /?/- \f ' ' CASE NUMBER: f - Q 6 V 4*F"^_____________________________________________ DEPOSITION OF: / L L- J A* ^ ^ _______________________ IN THE COURT OF: 7/v/ O'**. T ^ .) St * ~Ar' />,'r T 7 - ~ A, v y f. T______ > il*> <- O js '\ UK. c- r *- -- - HELD ON THE DAY OF: V/LC /- / * /' V i <- , r ? '____________________ IN THE CITY AND STATE OF: J/T,,^ 7~'TUs.~ /''O r <;____________________ Line <!"' CORRECTIONS Now Reads Should Read / fa So TLsfe / /i/) />J o7~ S to fUfe* . * J Reasons Therefor ?r w //v/i' AT A lJJ^ f T J o/o A:ttt A ^ A io 9^ /'' j? /%L 1* 7 2/ C'LC/S0'V OJj 2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 On behalf of Plaintiffs: 3 RAYMOND P. BOUCHER, ESQ. 4 Sayre, Moreno, Purcell & Boucher 5 10866 Wilshire Boulevard, Fourth Floor 6 Los Angeles, California 90024 7 (213) 475-0505 8 9 On behalf of Defendant Metropolitan Life: 10 MARK J. HENDERSON, ESQ. 11 Dewey, Ballantine, Bushby, Palmer 5 Wood 12 333 South Hope Street 13 Los Angeles, California 90071 14 (213) 626-3399 15 16 On behalf of Defendant W. R. Grace & Co.: 17 F. JOHN NYHAN, ESQ. 18 Pillsbury, Madison & Sutro 19 515 South Flower Street, Suite 3300 20 Lost Angeles, California 90071 21 (213) 612-7549 22 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. NC. 20 F ST.. N W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20001 (202) 628-0300 1 APPEARANCES 2 On behalf of Defendant W. R. Grace & Co.: 3 SIBLEY P. REPPERT, ESQ. 4 Goodwin, Procter & Hoar 5 Exchange Place 6 Boston, Massachusetts 02109 7 (617) 570-1474 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 20 F ST.. N.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20001 (202) 628-0300 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 2 FOR THE CENTRAL DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA 3 ----------- - - -- -- x 4 3250 WILSHIRE BOULEVARD BUILDING, : 5 et al., 6 7 v. Plaintiffs, : : CivilAction No. : 87-06048 WMB (GHKx) 8 METROPOLITAN LIFE INSURANCE 9 COMPANY, et al., 10 Defendants. : : 11 -----------------x ------ 12 Seattle, Washington 13 Deposition of WILLIAM V. CULVER, a witness 14 herein, called for examination by counsel for Plaintiffs 15 in the above-entitled matter, pursuant to notice, the 16 witness being duly sworn by ALLAN M. JOHNSON, CVR, a 17 Notary Public in and for the State of Washington, taken at 18 the offices of Lane, Powell, Moss & Miller, 37th floor, 19 Rainier Bank Tower, Seattle, Washington, at 10:00 a.m., on 20 Monday, December 12, 1988, and the proceedings being taken 21 down by Stenomask by ALLAN M. JOHNSON, and transcribed 22 under his direction. ALDERSON REPORTNQ COMPANY. NC. 20 F ST_ N.W- WASHINGTON, D.C. 20001 (202) 826-0300 1 2 WITNESS 3 WILLIAM V. CULVER 4 By Mr. Boucher 5 By Mr. Reppert 6 By Mr. Boucher 7 8 9 (Afternoon Session) 10 11 12 13 EXHIBIT NO. 14 1173 15 1174 16 1175 17 1176 18 1177 19 1178 20 1179 21 1180 22 1181 CONTENTS EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFF DEFENDANT 5 192 195 93 EXHIBITS PAGE 77 82 86 112 116 120 129 138 140 ALDERSON REPORTMQ COMPANY. NC. 20 F ST.. N.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20001 1202) 628-9300 1 CONTENTS (Continued) 2 EXHIBIT NO. 3 1182 4 1183 5 1184 6 1185 7 1186 8 1187 9 1188 10 1189 11 1190 12 1191 13 1192 14 1193 15 1194 16 1195 17 1196 18 19 20 21 22 PAGE 142 143 145 148 151 152 156 158 ------- 159 166 169 171 176 181 187 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. MC. 20 F ST,, N.W.. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20001 (202) 028-0300 6 1 PROCEEDINGS 2 Whereupon, 3 WILLIAM V. CULVER 4 residing at 141 Parfitt Way Southwest, Winslow, Washington 5 98110, (206) 842-8722, was called as a witness by counsel 6 for Plaintiffs, and having been duly sworn by the Notary 7 Public, was examined and testified as follows: 8 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS 9 BY MR. BOUCHER: 10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Culver. Could you do me a 11 favor and give me your background and history so far as 12 your work with W. R. Grace is concerned? 13 A. I guess I'd like a more specific answer than that 14 -- or, question. I'm not sure what you want to know. 15 Q. When did you first start with w. R. Grace? 19 A. August of 1966. 17 Q. In what capacity was your first job with them? 18 A. I was the district manager. 19 Q. What was your job duties and responsibilities as 20 a district manager with W. R. Grace in 1966? 21 A. I managed the sales and the business in this 22 district. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 20 F ST.. N.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20001 1202) 628-0300 1 Q. Were you working with any specific division of 2 W. R. Grace at that point in time? 3 A. I believe it was still -- it was called the 4 Construction Products Division at that time. It may have 5 had a different title, but I believe that's what it was. 6 Q. Okay. And what types of products were you 7 selling in conjunction with the Construction Products 8 Division in 1966? 9 A. Various kinds of vermiculite, polystyrene, and I 10 believe we also had fiberglass. 11 Q. Also selling Mono-Kote at that period in time? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What was your strategy, or how did you go about 14 the sale of Mono-Kote in 1966? 15 MR. REPPERT: Objection to the form of the 16 question. It's compound and vague. 17 THE WITNESS: I guess I'd like a more specific 18 question. 19 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 20 Q. Did you just go out on the street corners and 21 sell Mono-Kote, or is there a way that you, as a trained 22 individual, as the district manager, sold Mono-Kote in ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. NC. 20 F ST.. N.W,, WASHINGTON, O.C. 20001 (202) 628-9300 8 1 1966? 2 MR. REPPERT: Objection to the fora of the 3 question again. You can go ahead. 4 THE WITNESS: We attempted to get specifications. 5 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 6 Q. From whom? 7 A. From architects. 8 Q. How did you go about attempting to get 9 specifications from architects in order to sell Mono-Kote 10 in 1966? 11 A. We attempted to know which buildings were being 12 designed, and then to determine the problems, or they let 13 us know their problems in the design, and we attempted to 14 solve the problems within the scope of what Mono-Kote 15 could solve. 16 Q. What types of problems are you talking about in 17 terms of problems that architects had in the design of 18 buildings? 19 A. The fire rating requirements, and how you solve 20 them. 21 Q. How did you know what architects to talk to? 22 A. That's one of the big issues, is trying to find ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 20 p ST NW WASHINGTON. DC 20001 1202' 62P-ROOO 9 1 out who has the buildings that are being designed, from 2 whatever source you can find them. 3 Q. Once you found out who was having buildings that 4 had to be designed, how did you make contact with them in 5 order to attempt to sell Mono-Kote? 6 A. Called them up. Go over and see them. 7 Q. As a district manager is that something that you 8 did, or did you have someone else do it who was 9 responsible for making the phone calls and seeing the 10 architects? 11 MR. REPPERT: Object to the form -of the question. 12 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 13 Q. What type of salespeople did you have underneath 14 you at that point in time who were responsible for aiding IS in the sale of Mono-Kote? 16 A. Mostly men. 17 Q. Did they have any titles? 18 A. Salesmen. 19 Q. All of them? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. So in the job category of people underneath you 22 who were responsible for the sale of Mono-Kote were ALDERSON REPORTNG COMPANY. NC. 20 F ST.. N.W.. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20001 (2021 628-0300 1 salesmen. Is that correct? 2 A. Would you say that again? 3 Q. The only underneath you who were responsible for 4 the sale of Mono-Kote were salesmen. Is that correct? 5 That is, the name of the category of people. 6 A. The only -- I'm sorry. One more time, please. 7 Q. Well, we'll back it up. What was the structural 8 breakdown of the area that you were responsible for as a 9 district manager in terms of the people underneath you? 10 A. I had salespeople. I had a secretary. 11 Q. A secretary. And how many salespeople did you 12 have? 13 A. At what time? 14 Q. 1966. 15 A. I don't recall. 16 Q. Approximately. 17 A. Approximately six. 18 Q. What area were you responsible for as district 19 manager in 1966? 20 A. Oregon, Washington, Alaska, the panhandle of 21 Idaho, and North and Western Montana. 22 Q. Who did you report to in 1966? ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 20 P ST N.W.. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20001 1202) 628-0300 11 1 A. C. H. Wendel. 2 Q. What was his job title? 3 A. I'm not sure what it was at that time. 4 Q. What was his job responsibilities? 5 A. I'm sure of the extent of his responsibilities. 6 Q. Do you know why you reported to Mr. Wendel in 7 1966? 8 A. Because I was directed to. 9 Q. And what were you directed to report to Mr. 10 Wendel about? 11 A. About the operation of this district. 12 Q. Was there a title that was attached to the 13 district, or a name that was given to the district? 14 A. Northwest District. IS Q. What aspect of the operation of the Northwest 16 District did you report to Mr. Wendel about at that point 17 in time? 18 A. I reported to him the -- everything I thought he 19 should know. 20 Q. Did you report to him about people you were going 21 to hire? 22 A. If I was going to hire somebody, yes. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. MC. 20 P ST.. N.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20001 (202) 628-0300 12 1 Q. Did you report to him about people you were going 2 to fire? 3 A. If I was going to fire them, yes. 4 Q. Did you report to him about people you were going 5 to give raises to? 6 A. That was part of my responsibility. 7 Did you report to him about the architects who 8 you had personal contact with about Mono-Kote? 9 A. Generally not specifically. 10 Q. Did you report to him about problems that were 11 occurring in work sites in the use of Mono-Kote? 12 MR. REPPERT: Objection. No foundation. There's 13 been no testimony about problems on work sites in the use 14 of Mono-Kote. 15 THE WITNESS: I don't recall that we had 16 problems. 17 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 18 Q. You never had a problem with cracking with Mono19 Kote? 20 A. Yes, I've had Mono-Kote crack. 21 Q. Is cracking a problem with Mono-Kote? 22 A. Cracking can be a problem. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 20 F ST. NW WASHINGTON. D.C. 20001 (2021 628-0300 13 1 Q. Did you ever report to Mr. Wendel about any 2 problems with cracking of Mcno-Kote? 3 A. I don't recall that. 4 Q. You don't recall ever doing that? 5 A. I don't recall that. 6 Q. Is cracking of Mono-Kote the type of thing that 7 Mr. Wendel should know about in his job capacity? 8 MR. REPPERT: Objection. Speculation. He 9 already testified he didn't know what Mr. Wendel's job 10 capacity was, other than reporting to him. 11 MR. BOUCHER: You may answer the question, sir. 12 THE WITNESS: Would you restate the question, 13 please? 14 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 15 Q. Is the problem in the cracking of Mono-Kote one 16 of the types of things that you were responsible for 17 reporting to Mr. Wendel? 18 A. I don't know that that was something that I was 19 called on to report. 20 Q. When there was cracking in Mono-Kote, who would 21 you report that to? 22 MR. REPPERT: Objection. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. NC. 20 F ST.. N.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20001 f2021 628-8300 14 1 THE WITNESS: I don't recall who I would have 2 reported that to. 3 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 4 Q. Would you report it to anyone? 5 MR. REPPERT: Objection. Hypothetical question. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't know that I would have 7 reported it to anyone. 6 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 9 Q. In 1966 Mono-Kote was an important product that 10 was being sold by W. R. Grace, was it not? 11 A. Mono-Kote was sold by W. R. Grace. That was one 12 of our products. 13 Q. And you considered it to be an important product? 14 A. I think all of our products were important. 15 Q. As far as you knew, W. R. Grace committed a lot 16 of resources to the development of Mono-Kote, did it not? 17 MR. REPPERT: If you know. 18 THE WITNESS: I'm not -- I'm not privy to the 19 resources committed to Mono-Kote. 20 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 21 Q. As part of your responsibilities as district 22 manager you were also responsible for -- as part of those ALDERSON REPORTWO COMPANY. INC. 20 F ST.. N.W.. WASHINGTON. DC. 20001 (2021 628-0300 15 1 responsibilities you were responsible for selling Mono2 Kote, weren't you? 3 A- I was responsible for that. 4 Q. And that included the advertising and promotion 5 of Mono-Kote, didn't it? 6 A. I don't recall that we advertised it. 7 Q. Did you promote it? e A. Yes. I think I said that. 9 Q. Okay. One of the aspects of the promotion of 10 Mono-Kote at that point in time was the quality of the 11 product, was it not? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. W. R. Grace took great pride in the quality of 14 its Mono-Kote products, didn't it? 15 MR. REPPERT: You say "products"? That's plural? 16 That's 1966? 17 MR. BOUCHER: 1966. 18 MR. REPPERT: Objection. No foundation that 19 there were "products" called Mono-Kote at that time. 20 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 21 Q. You may answer. 22 A. Again, the question? ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 20 F ST.. N.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20001 1202) 828-9300 16 1 Q. Did W. R. Grace take great pride in its Mono-Kote 2 products? 3 MR. REPPERT: Same objection. 4 THE WITNESS: I can't speak for W. R. Grace. 5 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 6 Q. But you were a representative of W. R. Grace. 7 A. That's right. Yeah. 8 Q. And you understood, did you not, their 9 promotional strategy with respect to Mono-Kote? 10 A. I promoted Mono-Kote with comfort; yes. 11 Q. And with great pride. Right? 12 A. Oh, I'm not sure if pride is the -- you'd have to 13 define pride. 14 Q. You don't know what pride is? 15 A. In this respect, I guess I'd ask you to define 16 pride. 17 Q. Did you ever have any meetings with anyone at 18 Grace with respect to sales or promotion of Mono-Kote? 19 Anyone above you. 20 A. I had meetings with -- frequently with Mr. 21 Wendel. 22 Q. And in those meetings did he ever talk to you ALDERSON REPORTWO COMPANY, INC. 20 F ST.. N.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20001 (202) 628-9300 1 about ways to promote the sale of Mono-Kote? 2 A. I think our marketing strategies were well -- 3 often discussed. 4 Q. What were your marketing strategies in 1966 with 5 respect to the sale of Mono-Kote? 6 A. To try to get it specified and get people to buy 7 it. 8 Q. In what way did you use marketing strategies to 9 get Mono-Kote specified, and to get people to use it at 10 that point? 11 A. To persuade them of the value of Mono-Kote. 12 Q. How did you intend to persuade them of the value 13 of Mono-Kote? 14 A. There was information available as to its 15 performance characteristics, and to persuade them that 16 that was the best solution to their problems. 17 Q. What information did you make available 18 concerning its performance characteristics in order to 19 help promote the sale of Mono-Kote? 20 A. Whatever we had at that time, that was available 21 to provide. 22 Q. And what did you have at that point in time that 90 P ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. NW WASHINGTON DC 20001 (2021 82S-0300 1 was available to provide them? 2 A. I don't remember specifically. 3 Q. Well, do you remember generally? 4 A. We had literature. 5 Q. What kind of literature? 6 A. Mono-Kote literature. 7 Q. What kind of Mono-Kote literature? 8 A. That that was provided by W. R. Grace. 9 Q. And what was provided by W. R. Grace -- 10 A. I don't have it in -- 11 Q. -- in the way of Mono-Kote literature? 12 A. I don't recall specifically. 13 Q. Do you recall generally? 14 A. Mono-Kote literature. 15 Q. You don't remember anything about the Mono-Kote 16 literature made available by W. R. Grace at that point in 17 time to promote Mono-Kote? 18 A. Literature that described its properties and 19 values. 20 Q. What properties and values were described in the 21 literature with respect to Mono-Kote? 22 A. I don't recall specifically. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. -* c CT NW WASHINGTON. DC 20001 12021 828-0300 19 1 Q. Do you recall generally? 2 A. No. That it was good. 3 Q. All right. That it was good for what? 4 A. For fireproofing. 5 Q. It was a high quality fireproofing product? Is 6 that one of them? 7 A. That could be one of them. 8 Q. Do you recall being told by anyone at Grace to 9 promote the strengths of Mono-Kote? 10 A. Define "strengths." 11 Q. I'm asking you, were you ever told by anyone at 12 W. R. Grace to promote the strengths of Mono-Kote? 13 A. I'd like a definition of "strengths." 14 Q. Well, I don't know what anyone at Grace would 15 call the definition of strengths. 16 A. There's all kinds of strength. 17 Q. I understand that. Did anyone ever specifically 18 tell you from W. R. Grace to promote the strengths -- did 19 they say promote the strengths of Mono-Kote? 20 MR. REPPERT: He's asked for a definition of what 21 you mean by that. 22 MR. BOUCHER: I don't mean anything other than ALDERSON REPORTINQ COMPANY. NC. 20 F ST.. N.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20001 (202) 628-0300 20 1 what they used the term to mean. 2 MR. REPPERT: Well, there's no foundation. Why 3 don't you show him -- if there's a document, maybe you can 4 show it to him and -- 5 MR. BOUCHER: I'm asking him did anyone ever -ell 6 him to promote the strengths of Mono-Kote. 7 THE WITNESS: Are you asking for the physical 8 strengths? I'm not sure -- I don't -- 9 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 10 Q. I'm asking, did anyone at Grace ever use that 11 word, those words, or words to that effect, "promote the 12 strengths of Mono-Kote"? 13 MR. REPPERT: In other words, if you have a 14 specific recollection of those words being used. 15 MR. BOUCHER: Yes, those words, or words to that 16 effect. Correct. 17 MR. REPPERT: "The strengths of Mono-Kote." 18 MR. BOUCHER: That's correct. 19 THE WITNESS: Actually, a question of 20 clarification. Do you -- when you mean strengths, to you 21 mean properties? Is that your -- 22 MR. BOUCHER: Well, let's go about it this way. ^c ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. NC. kiw W & nr &7S-0SOO 21 1 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 2 Q. Did Mr. Wendel ever tell you, ''Bill Culver, would 3 you please start promoting, and make sure that you promote 4 the strengths of Mono-Kote"? Did he ever say those words, 5 or use words to that effect? 6 A. I don't recall that. 7 Q. Did Mr. Egan ever tell you, "Culver, make sure 8 you promote the strengths of Mono-Kote," or words to that 9 effect? 10 A. I don't recall that either. 11 Q. Did Mr. Wendel ever tell you, "Mr: Culver, I want 12 you to make sure that you promote the pluses of Mono13 Kote"? 14 A. I don't recall that they used those words. 15 Q. Did Mr. Egan ever tell you, "Mr. Culver, I want 16 you to promote the pluses of Mono-Kote"? 17 A. I don't recall that those words were used. 18 Q. Did they ever ask you, either Mr. Egan or Mr. 19 Wendel, to promote the advantages of Mono-Kote over other 20 types of fireproofing products? 21 A. I think that would have been a direction; yes. 22 Q. What did you understand the advantages of AIDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 20 F ST.. N.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20001 1202) 626-9300 22 1 Mono-Kote over other types of fireproofing products to 2 have been in 1966? 3 A. It was hard, durable, and cementitious. 4 Q. Anything else? S A. I'm sure there's lots of other adjectives to 6 describe it. 7 Q. Those were the three that you used at that point 8 in time to define the advantages of Mono-Kote over other 9 types of fireproofing products. Is that correct? 10 A. Those were our advantages. 11 Q. Okay. And how did you use these advantages, the 12 fact that Mono-Kote is hard, durable, and cementitious in 13 your marketing strategy to promote the sale of Mono-Kote 14 in 1966? 15 A. As a comparison with the alternative. 16 Q. How do you define marketing strategy, sir? 17 MR. REPPERT: It's your word. 18 MR. BOUCHER: No, it's his word. He used it 19 first. 20 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 21 Q. How do you define marketing strategy? 22 A. The efforts used to get our products used in ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. _ l"*! 23 1 preference to others. 2 MESSENGER: [Entering the room] Raymond Boucher? 3 (Brief recess.) 4 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 5 Q. I believe I was asking you what efforts you used 6 to get Mono-Kote products used in preference to others. 7 A. Just provide the information on the properties of 8 Mono-Kote, and contrast it with the properties available 9 from competitive products. 10 Q. Did you ever use any trade shows, things of that 11 nature, to help you promote the sale of Mono-Kote in the 12 Northwest region? 13 A. I don't remember any specific show. 14 Q. Did you ever advertise in any regional trade 15 publications in the Northwest district to promote the sale 16 of Mono-Kote? 17 A. I don't remember a specific advertisement. 18 Q. Do you remember a general advertisement? 19 A. No. 20 Q. To the best of you recollection, you never used 21 any regional trade journals to promote the sale of Mono22 Kote. Is that correct? ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 20 F ST.. N.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20001 (2021 028-0300 24 t A. I don't remember any. 2 Q. Did you think that in 1966 if there were reports 3 to you that Mono-Kote III was cracking on the job, that 4 that was something that was important to report to 5 somebody at W. R. Grace? 6 MR. REPPERT: Object to the form of the question. 7 That type of question. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't recall that I reported 9 cracking. 10 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 11 Q. Didn't you think it was important for anyone at 12 W. R. Grace to know that Mono-Kote III was cracking? 13 MR. REPPERT: Objection. There is no testimony 14 that Mono-Kote III was cracking in 1966, and the question 15 is hypothetical. First you must lay a foundation. 16 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 17 Q. Will you answer the question? 18 A. Would you ask it again? 19 Q. The question was did you feel it was important to 20 report cracking of Mono-Kote III to anyone at W. R. Grace? 21 A. I don't remember that I reported it. 22 Q. Did you feel it was important to report it? ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. r e- MW waewiwnfON O.c 70001 (7071 079-9300 25 1 MR. REPPERT: Objection. There's no testimony 2 that there was cracking. It's a hypothetical question. 3 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 4 Q. You may answer the question. 5 A. I think that some applicators may have had 6 problems with cracking. 7 Q. Was Mono-Kote III supposed to crack? 6 A. I doubt that it's supposed to crack. 9 Q. In fact you know just the opposite, don't you, 10 that Mono-Kote III was not supposed to crack? 11 A. The end product shouldn't be cracked. 12 Q. If the end product is cracked, what effect does 13 that have, if any, on the fire rating? 14 A. That is beyond my expertise. 15 Q. What did you do when you found situations where 16 Mono-Kote III was cracking? 17 A. I don't recall that I did anything. 18 Q. Do you recall who, if anyone, did? 19 A. The applicator would have done something. 20 Q. What would the applicator have done? 21 A. Patched it. 22 Q. Did you understand that at that period of time ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, NC. 20 F ST.. N.W.. WASHINGTON, DC. 20001 (202) 628-0300 26 1 that if Mono-Kote III was cracking that one of the causes 2 of the cracking could be that the Mono-Kote mix was 3 improperly mixed? 4 MR. REPPERT: Objection. Hypothetical. 5 THE WITNESS: I don't recall that, that that was 6 the cause of it cracking. 7 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 6 Q. Did you have any interaction with applicators as 9 part of your job functions in the Northwest district as to 10 the proper application of Mono-Kote III? 11 A. I tried to; yes. 12 Q. And how did you try to do that? 13 A. To advise them of what we felt the proper 14 application techniques were. Q.15 Did you go to job sites to help them? 16 A. I was on job sites. Q.17 Were your salesmen also on job sites? 18 A. That is correct. Q.19 Was that part of their job responsibilities? 20 A. For some, yes. Q.21 If you were on job sites - - were you ever on any 22 job sites where the applicators were having problems with ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. I#' in !_ ^ 'V* ' ^ /* AAAA< /AAA1 #Afl.6<lAA 2 1 cracking of Mono-Kote III? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. When you were on those job sites where the 4 applicators were having problems with cracking of Mono5 Kote III, you didn't do anything with respect to alerting 6 W. R. Grace to the fact that there was a cracking problem 7 on the job site. Is that correct? 8 A. I don't recall a specific alert. 9 Q. Do you recall any general alerts? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Why didn't you report, or alert anyone at W. R. 12 Grace of the cracking problem? 13 MR. REPPERT: Objection. That's not what he 14 said. 15 THE WITNESS: I don't think I said I didn't. 16 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 17 Q. Well, did you, or didn't you? 18 A. I said I have no specific recollection of doing 19 so. 20 Q. You don't have any general recollection of doing 21 so, either. Is that correct? 22 A. That's correct. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. NC. 20 F ST., N.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20001 (202) 628-9300 28 1 Q. Is that something in your responsibilities as a 2 district manager in the Northwest district that you would 3 have been responsible for doing -- and that is, reporting 4 cracking problems with Mono-Kote III to somebody at W. R. 5 Grace? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Okay. And why would you -- why wouldn't one of 8 your responsibilities include the reporting of cracking 9 problems in Mono-Kote III to somebody at W. R. Grace? 10 MR. REPPERT: If you know. *% 11 THE WITNESS: My job responsibility would have 12 been to advise them of those kinds of things. 13 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 14 Q. Why? 15 MR. REPPERT: If you know. 16 THE WITNESS: I think my responsibility was to 17 keep people informed of the operation of the business. 18 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 19 Q. How, in your opinion, would cracking problems in 20 Mono-Kote III impact or affect the operation of the 21 business? 22 A. As it was perceived by the applicators. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 29 1 Q. How did you, in your opinion, believe that the 2 perception of the applicators would be affected insofar as 3 Mono-Kote III was concerned with respect to the operation 4 of the business? 5 A. If they had a cracking problem, they needed to 6 patch it, and it would impact them financially. 7 Q. Would it also affect the good will of the 6 applicators, in your opinion? 9 A. Their financial performance would affect the 10 relationships. 11 Q. Did you believe at that point in time that the 12 cracking problems in Mono-Kote III would also affect the 13 perception that applicators had as to the quality of 14 Mono-Kote? 15 A. I don't know. I don't think I can make that 16 connection. 17 Q. Did you believe at that point in time that 18 problems in cracking of Mono-Kote III would have an affect 19 upon applicator -- upon architects with respect to how 20 they viewed Mono-Kote III? 21 MR. REPPERT: This is 1966? 22 MR. BOUCHER: That's correct. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. NC. 90 c ST NW. WASHINGTON DC. 20001 1202) 628-0300 30 1 THE WITNESS: I don't know how -- that would 2 impact them. 3 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 4 Q. You had no belief one way or the other at that 5 point in time with respect to architects. Is that 6 correct? 7 MR. REPPERT: No belief of any sort? 8 MR. BOUCHER: With respect to the cracking of 9 Mono-Kote. 10 MR. REPPERT: He said it would impact them. 11 THE WITNESS: No. I don't believe that the 12 cracking, if it was patched, should impact the architect. 13 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 14 Q. Who at W. R. Grace would you have informed of any 15 cracking problems in Mono-Kote III? 16 A. I don't know who I would have informed, outside 17 of Mr. Wendel, perhaps. 18 Q. Who were you employed by? 19 A. Vermiculite Northwest. 20 Q. In what capacity? 21 A. When? 22 Q. Well, prior to -- ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. * \t' O LJifc l/T n ** ~1 1 A. When? 2 Q. Prior to 1966. 3 A. Several capacities. 4 Q. Give them all to me, please. 5 A. I was a manager, and I became the president of 6 it. 7 Q. Now, that is to -- 8 A. More than one -- that's all. Those two 9 capacities. 10 Q. Was Vermiculite Northwest bought out by w. R. 11 Grace? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. When did that take place? Do you know? Around 14 1966? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. Prior to 1966 did you participate as a member in 17 the Vermiculite Institute? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Prior to 1966 was Vermiculite Northwest a member 20 of the Vermiculite Institute? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. When did you become a manager of Vermiculite ALOERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. ? t ST NW WASHINGTON. DC. 50001 120?' 028-0300 32 1 Northwest? 2 A. About 1955. 3 Q. When did you become president of Vermiculite 4 Northwest? 5 A. About '52, I think. 6 Q. Between 1955 and 1962 did you ever attend any 7 Vermiculite Institute meetings on behalf of Vermiculite 8 Northwest? 9 A. I did. 10 Q. When did you first begin attending meetings on 11 behalf of Vermiculite Northwest prior to 1962? 12 A. I believe the first meeting was 1956. 13 Q. When was the Vermiculite Institute founded, if 14 you can recall? 15 A. I do not know. 1* Q. What was the purpose behind Vermiculite 17 Institute? 18 A. To my understanding, it was a trade organization, 19 a trade association. 20 Q. Was ZONOLITE a member of the Vermiculite 21 Institute between 1956 and 1962? 22 A. That's my understanding. r r* ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. fcl U' \aj * r* ^o-o 33 1 Q. Who did Vermiculite Northwest purchase 2 vermiculite from between 1955 to 1962? 3 A. The ZONOLITE Company. 4 Q. Did you understand thc.t the Vermiculite 5 Institute, as part of its capacity, would also be 6 responsible for obtaining fire rating tests on Mono-Kote? 7 A. One of the functions of. the Vermiculite Institute e was to conduct fire tests. 9 Q. What other functions did the Vermiculite 10 Institute serve? 11 A. They provided all of the trade association 12 coordination, and I -- I'm sure there were a multiple 13 number of things that they did. I don't have all that 14 information. 15 Q. What information do you have about the other 16 functions that they performed in their capacity for 17 providing trade coordination? 18 A. They published some literature? 19 Q. What type of literature? 20 A. On vermiculite. 21 Q. What type of literature on vermiculite did they 22 publish? ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. NC. 20 F ST. NW WASHINGTON. DC. 20001 12021 628-0300 34 1 A. On insulation, on plaster, and on concrete. All 2 the uses of vermiculite. 3 Q. And to whom were these publications directed? 4 A. It could have been to any number of kinds of -- 5 I don't know who all -- to whom they were directed. 6 Q. Which ones do you know about? 7 A. I don't recall any specific piece of literature 8 that -- 9 Q. Do you recall any groups of individuals or people 10 that the publications were directed towards? 11 A. I believe most of the literature was technical in 12 nature. 13 Q. Was any of their literature promotional in 14 nature? 15 A. I think it was descriptive of the properties of 16 the various products. 17 Q. For promotional purposes? 18 A. Certainly for educational purposes. 19 Q. To educate what group of people or groups of 20 people? 21 A. Employees of the members as well as the 22 specifying people. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. t.J'% l 35 1 Q. Meaning people who would be specifying a type of 2 product for purposes of a job site? 3 A. Job site? 4 Q. For building, work sites, those types of things. 5 A. I don't recall that we had any information or -- 6 about application, if that's what you're saying. 7 Q. You used the term "educational" for people who 8 were providing specifications. What did you mean by 9 people providing specifications? 10 A. People who wrote specifications. 11 Q. Wrote specifications for what? 12 A. For the various building materials. 13 Q. Wrote specifications for various building 14 materials for what? 15 A. I think I said for insulation, or plaster, for 16 concrete. 17 Q. Wrote specifications for concrete, plaster, 18 insulation, for building materials for what? 19 A. For buildings. 20 Q. Okay. Buildings that were going to be built? 21 A. Pardon? 22 Q. For buildings to be built? ALDERSON REPORTING CO*ff>ANY, INC. 20 F ST. N.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20001 (2021 828-0300 36 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. So I understand that any of this educational 3 material that was being sent down to the people who were 4 going to be writing specifications on insulation, 5 concrete,* and plastering on buildings that were going to 6 be built was for purposes of promoting the product? 7 A. Promoting the use of vermiculite. 8 Q. While Vermiculite Northwest was a member of the 9 Vermiculite Institute, did you have any understanding 10 whether the Institute was also responsible for collecting 11 medical and scientific data on potential health hazards 12 associated with the use of vermiculite products? 13 MR. REPPERT: Objection. There's been no 14 testimony there were any potential health hazards 15 associated with the use of vermiculite products, therefore 16 the question does not have an adequate foundation. 17 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 18 Q. You may answer. 19 A. Not that I know of. 20 Q. And you never received any information from the 21 Vermiculite Institute at any point in time while you were 22 connected with Vermiculite Northwest concerning any ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. \j'*cuiktrPAW r\ r> 37 1 potential health hazards associated with the use of 2 vermiculite. Is that correct? 3 MR. REPPERT: Objection. Same grounds. 4 THF WITNESS: Not that I'm aware of. 5 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 6 Q. What committees were set up in the Vermiculite 7 Institute? Did they have any standing committees? 8 A. When? 9 Q. At any point in time when you were connected with 10 the Vermiculite Institute. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. What standing committees existed in the 13 Vermiculite Institute? 14 A. Over the period of years there was a concrete 15 committee, and insulation committee, market development 16 committee, I believe. There may have been others I don't 17 recall. 18 Q. Did Vermiculite Northwest sell Mono-Kote products 19 prior to 1966? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Did Vermiculite Institute -- when did Vermiculite 22 Northwest first begin selling Mono-Kote products? ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. " e !'r NW WASHiwriTr)M DC. 20001 12021 628-9300 38 1 A. I don't recall. 2 Q. Was Vermiculite Northwest selling Mono-Kote 3 products in 1956 when you were working for Vermiculite 4 Northwest? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Did Vermiculite Northwest ever sell Mono-Kote 1? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Did Vermiculite Northwest ever sell Mono-Kote 9 III? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Did Vermiculite Northwest ever sell Mono-Kote 2? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Do you have a recollection of approximately when 14 Mono-Kote III was first developed? 15 A. In '60, give or take -- approximately 1960. 16 Q. Do you have a recollection of who developed 17 Mono-Kote III? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Who? 20 A. Mel Quayle. 21 THE REPORTER: What was the name again? 22 THE WITNESS: Quayle. Mel Quayle. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. i+\***\ o o ^ r?> r>,r- 39 1 THE REPORTER: Mel Quayle. 2 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 3 Q. No relation. 4 Do you want to spell that? 5 A. Q-u-a-y-l-e. 6 Q. To Dan, that was. 7 Who was Mel Quayle affiliated with when Mono-Kote 8 III was developed? 9 A. Gypsum Company in Albuquerque. 10 Q. Was Mono-Kote III developed for use by the 11 Vermiculite Institute members? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Which standing committees were responsible for 14 Mono-Kote III with respect to the development or sale of 15 Mono-Kote III? 16 MR. REPPERT: Standing committees of the 17 Vermiculite Institute? 18 MR. BOUCHER: Correct. 19 THE WITNESS: None of them. 20 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 21 Q. Pardon? 22 A. None of them. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, NC. 20 F ST., N.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20001 (2021 628-0300 40 1 Q. So there weren't any standing committees that 2 were responsible for Mono-Kote III, sale and promotion. 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. Which -- 5 MR. BOUCHER: Do you want to talk for a second? 6 MR. REPPERT: Just briefly. 7 (Brief recess.) 8 MR. REPPERT: Do you want to clarify anything 9 concerning the Vermiculite Institute and Mono-Kote? 10 THE WITNESS: Mono-Kote was a trademark of the 11 ZONOLITE and its licensees. And the Vermiculite Institute 12 dealt with Type MK, not with Mono-Kote. 13 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 14 Q. What does MK stand for? 15 A. Type MK is a fire proofing. Two letters. 16 Q. Was Vermiculite Northwest a licensee of ZONOLITE? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. Were there any Vermiculite Institute members that 19 were not licensees of ZONOLITE other than ZONOLITE itself? 20 A. There may have been; yes. 21 Q. Do any come to mind? 22 A. No. AIDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. c ;t NW WASHINGTON DC 20001 (2021 828-9300 41 1 Q. With respect to obtaining the UL fire rating on 2 the Type MK, was that something that the Vermiculite 3 Institute was responsible for doing? 4 A. The Vermiculite Institute conducted the fire 5 tests. 6 Q. On behalf of all its members? 7 A. I don't know that all members participated in 8 that. 9 Q. On behalf of its members? 10 A. On behalf of some of its members. 11 Q. Was there a standing committee that was 12 responsible for having the MK fire test studies conducted? 13 A. The plaster and/or fireproofing committee would 14 have been involved in the need of the fire test. 15 Q. Was the plaster and fireproofing committee a 16 separate committee from the concrete, comma, insulation, 17 or marketing development committees? 18 A. I think it was. 19 Q. When did the Vermiculite Institute cease to 20 exist? 21 A. I don't recall. 22 Q. Do you recall approximately? ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. nu' ur t_iikv' r<- 0*0-** ** 42 1 A. About 1968, I believe. 2 Q. Do you recall why? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Did you ever serve on any of the standing 5 committees in the Vermiculite Institute? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. What committees did you sit as a member of? 8 A. I was on the fireproofing committee, and the 9 market development committee. I may have been on some 10 others, but I don't recall. 11 Q. What was the function of the fireproofing 12 committee? 13 A. To attempt to understand the needs of the 14 marketplace. 15 Q. Is that it? 16 A. That was certainly one of them. 17 Q. What other functions did it serve? 18 A. To try to formulate responses to those needs. 19 Q. Responses by way of fire ratings? 20 A. That's one. 21 Q. What other types of responses? 22 A. I think that's substantially it. rc ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. * \>' wueuiMr.TftN nr room erft-oooo 43 1 Q. What was the function of the market development 2 committee? 3 A. To try to explore all possible uses for 4 vermiculite. 5 Q. Anything else? 6 A. I don't recall. 7 Q. Was one of its functions to promote the sale of 8 vermiculite products? 9 A. I think any time they -- the Vermiculite 10 Institute did not get involved in the sale of products. 11 It was the member companies that did the selling. 12 Q. So there was no coordinated promotional efforts 13 that were conducted through the Vermiculite Institute with 14 respect to the sale of Mono-Kote -- of vermiculite15 containing products? 16 A. I don't recall that they were involved in 17 coordinated sales efforts; no. 18 Q. They weren't involved in any coordinated 19 promotional efforts? 20 A. I don't recall them. 21 Q. Do you have any understanding as to why MK-3 was 22 developed? ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 44 1 A. As an improvement -- as an MK-1. And 2, if there 2 was an MK-2. 3 Q. MK-2, wasn't that an insulation product? 4 A. I have no knowledge about MK-2. 5 Q. You don't ever recall there being an MK-2 which 6 was a fireproofing product? 7 A. I don't ever recall any specifics on MK-2. 8 Q. Ir. what way was MK-3 developed as an improvement 9 on MK-1? 10 A. I think primarily an economic improvement. 11 Q. In what way? 12 A. Less costly. 13 Q. How was it less costly? 14 A. It used a different gypsum. 15 Q. When MK-3 was first developed and put on the 16 market, did it. perform as well as MK-1 had performed prior 17 to that point in time? 18 A. I can't compare them. 19 Q. You don't recall that when MK-3 was first placed 20 on the market, you had some problems with MK-3 with 21 respect to its performance in relationship with MK-1? 22 A. I don't recall that. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 4 t Q. It didn't apply as well as MK-1 had applied 2 previously. 3 MR. REPPERT: Is that a question? 4 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. 5 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 6 Q. Did your job functions with W. R. Grace change at 7 all between 1966, when you became a district manager, to 6 1973? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. What changes took place? 11 A. I no longer had any manufacturing responsibility. 12 Q. In 1966 when you were a district manager of W. R. 13 Grace, did you have any manufacturing responsibility? 14 A. The manufacturing managers reported to me. 15 Q. Which manufacturing managers reported to you? 16 A. The ones in Portland, and in Spokane. 17 Q. What was being manufactured at Portland when the 18 manufacturing managers reported to you? 16 A. All of our vermiculite products. 20 Q. Including Mono-Kote III? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And what products were being manufactured at ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. ia c ot k|W WSUINOTON DC 50001 12051 928-8300 46 1 Spokane when you were marketing manager -- or, when the 2 marketing managers reported to you? 3 A. That was production managers, not marketing. 4 Q. I'll start over again. What products were being 5 manufactured in Spokane when the manufacturing managers 6 reported to you? 7 A. All of the vermiculite products. 8 Q. Including MK-3, or Mono-Kote III? 9 A. That is correct. 10 Q. When did the manufacturing managers in Portland 11 and Spokane stop reporting to you? 12 A. I don't recall. 13 Q. Was it prior to 1970? Do you recall? 14 A. I think it's probably in that range. I don't IS recall. 16 Q. Do you recall whether W. R. Grace had begun to 17 develop Mono-Kote IV prior to, or after the time that the 18 manufacturing managers in Portland and Spokane stopped 19 reporting to you? 20 A. I don't know. 21 Q. Did your job duties change in any other way 22 between 1966 and 1973? ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 47 1 A. Not that I'm aware of. 2 Q. With respect to the reporting by manufacturing 3 managers from Portland and Spokane to you, who were they 4 responsible for reporting to? 5 A. I don't understand your question. 6 Q. They reported to you. In what way did they 7 report to you? e MR. REPPERT: You mean the manufacturing 9 managers? 10 MR. BOUCHER: Right. 11 THE WITNESS: As to the conduct of the business. 12 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 13 Q. So you were ultimately responsible for the 14 conduct of the manufacturing at the Spokane and Portland 15 facilities at that point in time? 16 A. If they reported to me, I guess was. 17 Q. After 1973, in what way, if at all, did your job 18 responsibilities at w. R. Grace change? 19 A. None. 20 Q. Are you still working with w. R. Grace? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And your position with W. R. Grace is still as ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 20 C ST. NW WASHINGTON D.C 20001 12021 029-0000 48 1 the district manager in the Northwest district? 2 A. That is correct. 3 Q. Do you still report to Mr. Wendel? i A. No. 5 Q. To whom do you report? 6 A. Mr. Feit. 7 Q. To Tom Feit? e A. Yes. 9 Q. Is he out of Los Angeles? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Where is he out of? 12 A. Santa Anna. 13 Q. When did you begin reporting to Mr. Feit? 14 A. About 1975. 15 Q. Did the number of sales people that you had 16 underneath you between 1966 and 1973 change? 17 A. I don't recall. 18 Q. So, in 1973, you don't recall whether or net you 19 had more than six salespeople working for you? 20 A. No. I don't recall the numbers of salespeople at 21 any specific time. 22 Q. Did you ever hear that asbestos was potentially ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. wa r) r> 49 1 harmful to human health? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. When did you first hear that asbestos was of 4 potential health effect to individuals? 5 A. I don't know. 6 Q. Do you recall whether you'd heard asbestos was a 7 potential -- or had potential human health effects prior 8 to 1966? 9 A. I don't know when I first heard it. 10 Q. Do you recall what circumstances surround the -- 11 let me rephrase that. 12 Do you recall under what circumstances you first 13 learned that asbestos was a potential -- had potential 14 adverse health effects on people? 15 A. Would you say that again -- the question again? 16 Q. Do you recall what circumstances surrounded your 17 understanding that asbestos caused potential adverse 18 health effects? 19 A. No, I don't recall. 20 Q. Do you recall who you learned that asbestos 21 caused potential adverse health effects upon people from? 22 A. No, I don't recall that. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 50 1 Q. Did you ever hear that a quote -- a 1968 NEW 2 YORKER magazine published an article concerning the health 3 effects associated with exposure to asbestos? 4 A. I'm aware there was a NEW YORKER article on it. 5 The dates I'm not -- I don't recall. 6 Q. Did you ever receive a copy of the NEW YORKER 7 article published -- which discussed the adverse health 8 effects on people wno were exposed to asbestos? 9 A. I had a copy of it. 10 Q. Do you recall how you received a copy of the 11 article out of the NEW YORKER which discussed the adverse 12 health effects associated with exposure to asbestos? 13 A. No, I don't. 14 Q. Do you recall whether you received a copy of the 15 NEW YORKER article which discussed the adverse health 16 effects associated with exposure to asbestos at or about 17 the time that you first learned that exposure to asbestos 18 caused adverse health effects? 19 MR. REPPERT: That's -- your prior wasn't the way 20 you rephrased it. You were talking to him about the 21 potential adverse health effects in the prior question, so 22 that there's no foundation in the way you phrased the ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. IMI' 51 1 question. 2 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 3 Q. You may answer. 4 A. I don't know I first heard about asbestos as a 5 potential health hazard. 6 Q. Do you recall receiving a copy of the NEW YORKER 7 article that discussed the potential adverse health 8 effects associated with exposure to asbestos at or about 9 the time that the article was published? 10 A. I don't recall when I received the article. 11 Q. What adverse health effects did you hear were 12 associated with exposure to asbestos? 13 A. When? 14 Q. When you first learned. 15 A. I don't recall what the first health hazard I 16 heard was. 17 Q. As you sit here today, what do you understand to 18 be the adverse health effects associated with exposure to 19 asbestos? 20 MR. REPPERT: If you have any such understanding. 21 Let me remind you, as you I'm sure are aware, we're not 22 offering this gentleman as an expert witness on those ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 52 1 subj ects. 2 MR. BOUCHER; I understand. 3 THE WITNESS; I understand that the inhalation 4 asbestos causes asbestosis. 5 BY MR. BOUCHER; (Resuming) 6 Q. Anything else? 7 A. And I guess it can cause cancer. 6 Q. Anything else? 9 A. Not that I know of. 10 Q. What types of cancer have you heard the 11 inhalation of asbestos can cause? 12 A. Mesothelioma. 13 Q. Any others? 14 A. Not that I'm aware of. 15 Q. Have you ever heard that exposure to or 16 inhalation of asbestos fibers is a cause of lung cancer? 17 A. I guess that's another one. Could be. 16 Q. At the time that you first heard that the 19 inhalation of asbestos is a potential cause of cancer, was 20 Mono-Kote III being produced by W. R. Grace with asbestos? 21 A. I would have been at that -- during that time; 22 yes. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 53 1 Q. When you first learned that inhalation of 2 asbestos was a potential cause of cancer and asbestosis, 3 did you have any discussions with anyone at that time 4 about the potential health hazards associated with 5 exposure to Mono-Kote III? 6 MR. REPPERT: Objection. There's been no 7 testimony that there are potential health hazards 8 associated with Mono-Kote III. The question hasn't any 9 foundation. 10 THE WITNESS: I don't recall any conversation of 11 that kind. 12 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 13 Q. Do you recall having any conversations at any 14 point in time with anyone from W. R. Grace concerning the 15 potential health hazards associated with exposure to 16 Mono-Kote III? 17 MR. REPPERT: Objection. Same grounds. There's 18 been no testimony there are any potential health hazards 19 associated with Mono-Kote III. The question has no 20 foundation. 21 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 22 Q. You may answer. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 54 1 A. I don't recall any. 2 Q. Did you ever receive any correspondence from 3 anyone at W. R. Grace which indicated in any way that 4 there was a potential health hazard associated with Mono5 Kote III as a result of the asbestos content? 6 A. I don't recall any. 7 Q. Did you ever have any conversations with anyone 8 at W. R. Grace concerning the need to develop a substitute 9 for Mono-Kote III as a result of the fact that Mono-Kote 10 III contained asbestos? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Did you ever receive any correspondence from 13 anyone at W. R. Grace with respect to the need to develop 14 a substitute for Mono-Kote III as a result of the fact 15 that Mono-Kote III contained asbestos? 16 A. I don't have recollection of specific 17 correspondence of that kind. 18 Q. Do you have a general recollection of receiving 19 correspondence of that kind? 20 A. I don't have recollection of those -- any things 21 a* 22 Q. Who at W. R. Grace did you have discussions with AIDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 55 1 concerning the need to develop a substitute for Mono-Kote 2 III as a result of the fact that Mono-Kote III contained 3 asbestos? 4 MR. REPPERT: Question back, please. 5 THE REPORTER: "Question: Who at W. R. Grace did 6 you have discussions with concerning the need to develop a 7 substitute for Mono-Kote III as a result of the fact that 8 Mono-Kote III contained asbestos?" 9 THE WITNESS: I don't recall who those would have 10 been. 11 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 12 Q. Do you recall anyone? 13 A. Not specifically, no. 14 Q. Was Mr. Wendel one of the people that you would 15 have had those conversations with? 16 MR. REPPERT: Objection. He's testified he 17 doesn't have any recollection. It's asked and answered. 18 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 19 Q. Could you respond? 20 A. I would expect my duties would have required me 21 to talk to him about it. 22 Q. What about Tom Egan? Is he one of the * ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. r Muu w* euiMr^TOM n 56 1 individuals that you would have had conversations with 2 about the need to develop a substitute for Mono-Kote III? 3 A. Tom Egan was also in the system, and might have 4 been one of those. 5 Q. Do you recall when you first had any 6 conversations, or approximately what year you first had 7 any conversations with anyone from W. R. Grace concerning 8 the need to develop a substitute for Mono-Kote III as a 9 result of the fact that Mono-Kote III contained asbestos? 10 A. No, I don't. 11 Q. Do you recall whether or not conversations that 12 you had with people at W. R. Grace concerning the need to 13 develop a substitute for Mono-Kote III as a result of the 14 fact that Mono-Kote III contained asbestos occurred prior 15 to 1970? 16 A. No, I don't. 17 Q. What was your understanding as to the reason why 18 there was a need to develop a substitute for Mono-Kote III 19 as a result of the fact that it contained asbestos? 20 MR. REPPERT: Objection. He hasn't testified 21 that there was need. He testified that there were 22 conversations about whether there was a need. That's all. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. e MW WASHINGTON DC ?00O1 57 1 THE WITNESS: Would you repeat the question, 2 please? 3 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 4 Q. What was your understanding as to why there was a 5 need to develop a substitute for Mono-Kote III? 6 MR. REPPERT: Objection. Same grounds just 7 stated. 8 THE WITNESS: When? 9 MR. BOUCHER: Initially. 10 MR. REPPERT: Objection. Vague. 11 (Pause.) 12 THE WITNESS: My understanding of the need was to 13 develop another product where you can get it by the 14 regulatory agencies. 15 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 16 Q. Isn't it true that when you first learned that 17 there was a need to develop a substitute for Mono-Kote 18 III, the need was the result of the fact that somebody 19 from Grace had participate in a conference where Dr. 20 Silikoff explained the health hazards associated with 21 exposure to asbestos? 22 A. I don't recall that. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. ">0 c ST NW PC C0001 f?02> e?l?-Q900 58 1 Q. Have you ever heard of the name Dr. Irving 2 Silikoff? 3 A. I have. 4 Q. When did you first hear the name Silikoff? 5 A. In the NEW YORKER article. 6 Q. Now, isn't it true that when you first heard of 7 the need to develop a substitute for Mono-Kote III, one of 8 the reasons given for the need to develop the substitute 9 was that there was heat in the marketplace with respect to 10 fireproofing products containing asbestos? 11 A. Maybe you can explain that question a little bit 12 better. I don't really understand it. 13 Q. Isn't it true that when you first heard there was 14 need to develop a substitute for Mono-Kote III, that one 15 of the reasons given was that there was concern within the 16 marketplace of the health hazards associated with exposure 17 to fireproofing products that contained asbestos? 18 A. The biggest concern was regarding the kind of 19 fireproofing that was referred to in the NEW YORKER 20 article. 21 Q. As to my question, isn't it true that when you 22 first heard of the need to develop a substitute for ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. r <- MW wt <5wiWrtTnM nr. 50001 12051 628-0300 59 1 Mono-Kote III, one of the reasons given for that need was 2 the fact that there was concern in the marketplace about 3 the potential health hazards associated with asbestos4 containing fireproofing products? 5 MR. REPPERT: Objection. Asked and answered. 6 THE WITNESS: I'm sure that the need for the 7 development of another product was driven by the 8 regulatory agencies. 9 MR. BOUCHER: Move to strike as nonresponsive. 10 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 11 Q. Let me ask you again, was one of the reasons 12 explained to you by individuals from W. R. Grace 13 concerning the need to develop an alternative to, or a 14 substitute for, Mono-Kote III the fact that there was a 15 concern in the marketplace about the health hazards 16 associated with fireproofing products that contain 17 asbestos? Was that one of the things that they told you? 18 MR. REPPERT: Objection. Arked and answered. 19 THE WITNESS: The concern was with the other kind 20 of material. 21 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 22 Q. So no one at Grace told ever told you that one of ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 20 F ST., N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20001 1202) 628-0300 60 1 the reasons for the need to develop a substitute for Mono2 Kote 3 was the fact that there was a concern in the 3 marketplace with respect to the health hazards associated 4 with fireproofing material that contain asbestos. Is that 5 correct? 6 A. There was a concern regarding the hazards of the 7 other kind of fireproofing. 8 MR. BOUCHER: That wasn't my question. Move to 9 strike as nonresponsive. 10 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 11 Q. Is it true, then, that no one at Grace ever told 12 you that one of the reasons for the need to develop a 13 substitute for Mono-Kote III was the concern in the 14 marketplace about fireproofing products that contain 15 asbestos? 16 MR. REPPERT: Objection. You've asked that about 17 three times. He's answered every time you've asked it. 18 He's identified what the concern was, and about what kind 19 of product. And I find it -- that you're starting to get 20 unnecessarily repetitive. I ask you to drop it and move 21 on to something else. 22 MR. BOUCHER: I have a right to an answer to my ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. on c ct mw wt ewtwnTriw r\r ?oooi 170?' 0^00 61 1 question of Mr. Culver. 2 MR. REPPERT: He's answered your question three 3 times -- 4 MR. BOUCHER: And you have not -- 5 MR. REPPERT: -- and the record's going to show 6 that. 7 MR. BOUCHER: Well, the record will show what it 8 shows. 9 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 10 Q. You have not answered my question yet. It's a 11 very simple question that calls for a yes or no answer. 12 Either somebody from Grace did, or somebody -- 13 MR. REPPERT: I'm sorry, the question -- 14 MR. BOUCHER: May I finish, please? 15 MR. REPPERT: You may. 16 MR. BOUCHER: Thank you. 17 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 18 Q. Either somebody from Grace did, or somebody from 19 Grace did not explain that one of the reasons for 20 developing a substitute to Mono-Kote III was the fact that 21 there was a concern in the marketplace for fireproofing 22 products that contain asbestos. That is either a fact, or ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 20 c t NW WASHINGTON. DC. 20001 12021 62P-0300 62 1 it is not a fact, or you don't recall. 2 A. My understanding for the development of a 3 replacement for Mono-Kote III is that it was required 4 because of the concern for asbestos as contained in other 5 products. 6 Q. It was required to develop a substitute for 7 Mono-Kote III because of the concern about asbestos 8 contained in other products. 9 A. Because of the nature of the other products, and 10 the method of application. Asbestos was sprayed into the 11 air, and contaminated lots of nearby area. And that was 12 the basis for the concern about the other products. 13 Q. And in what way did the concern about the other 14 products impact upon the need to develop an alternative or 15 substitute for Mono-Kote III? 16 A. My understanding is that the regulatory agencies 17 perceived the spraying of that kind of asbestos required 18 regulation. And when I speak of "that" product, I'm 19 talking about the other kind. 20 Q. So it was your understanding that regulatory 21 agencies did not perceive the need to regulate the 22 spraying of asbestos-containing Mono-Kote. Is that ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. `Ml' III* A A AAAAl 63 1 correct? 2 A. When? 3 Q. Well, you just said that regulatory agencies 4 perceived the spraying of that kind of asbestos required 5 regulation. So my question is, then: it's your 6 understanding the regulatory agencies did not perceive the 7 need to regulate the spraying of Mono-Kote III. 8 MR. REPPERT: What's your question? 9 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 10 Q. Is that correct? 11 A. I'm not familiar with any regulatory agencies 12 requiring -- concerned about the spraying of asbestos -- 13 or, MK-3, prior to '73. 14 Q. So you're not familiar with any regulatory 15 agencies of any kind that were concerned about regulating 16 the spraying of Mono-Kote III prior to 1973. Is that 17 correct? 18 A. I have no knowledge of any. 19 Q. Is it your understanding that the marketplace was 20 concerned about asbestos contained in other types of 21 fireproofing products? 22 MR. REPPERT: "Other" being other than Mono-Kote? ALOERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. p mw u/a nr rnnni irrm ro_oonn 64 1 MR. BOUCHER: Other than Mono-Kote. 2 THE WITNESS: I have no specific knowledge of 3 them, either. Regulatory agencies. 4 BY KR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 5 Q. So let me see if I understand your testimony 6 correctly. There was no concern, so far as you were aware 7 of, in the marketplace, about the use of asbestos8 containing fireproofing products prior to 1973. Is that 9 correct? 10 A. I don't think I said that. I have no knowledge 11 of regulatory agencies regarding the other products. 12 Q. I'm not talking about regulatory agencies. 13 A. Yeah. That's what I think we were talking about. 14 Q. But right now, my question is the marketplace. 15 Okay? 16 A. Okay. 17 Q. Speaking specifically about concern in the 18 marketplace. Prior to 1973, were you ever aware of a 19 concern in the marketplace about the use of asbestos20 containing fireproofing products? 21 A. I was aware about concern in the marketplace for 22 the other kind; yes.***** ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. ***** u** auiMrsrnti' n 65 1 Q. And what was your understanding of the concern in 2 the marketplace for the other kind of ascestos-containing 3 fireproofing products, prior to 1973? 4 A. I think I said that the method of application 5 allowed for a lot of asbestos to be liberated into the 6 air. 7 Q. And why, to your understanding, was there a 8 concern in the marketplace about asbestos being liberated 9 in the air from the use of the other kinds of asbestos10 containing fireproofing products? 11 A. As in that NEW YORKER article, it was concerned 12 about asbestos being free in the air. 13 Q. And the effects that asbestos being free in the 14 air might have upon the health of people? 15 A. That's my perception now. 16 Q. Did you understand there to be a concern in the 17 marketplace about the use of Mono-Kote III, which 18 contained asbestos prior to 1973? 19 A. I'm not aware of any concern. 20 Q. Is it your understanding that the marketplace 21 understood the distinction between Mono-Kote III and the 22 other types of sprayed-on asbestos-containing fireproofing ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 20 f ST. NW. WASHINGTON DC. 20001 1202) 628-0300 66 1 products? 2 A. I believe that was generally understood. 3 Q. Okay. And so it's your belief that the 4 marketplace understood that there was not a -- let me 5 rephrase that. 6 Is it your testimony, then, that you believe that 7 the marketplace didn't perceive there to be a health 8 hazard associated with exposure to Mono-Kote III? 9 A. I believe the marketplace perceived the 10 difference between Mono-Kote III and any other kind. 11 Q. Did you believe that they perceived a difference 12 in the potential health risk associated with exposure to 13 Mono-Kote III as opposed to the other kinds? 14 MR. REPPERT: Objection. There's been no 15 testimony there's any potential health associated with 16 Mono-Kote III, therefore you're asking him to make a 17 comparison based on facts to which this witness has not 18 previously testified. 19 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 20 Q. You can answer the question. 21 A. I'm not aware of any concern regarding health 22 risk at all of Mono-Kote III. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. A 67 1 Q. So then it's your understanding that the 2 marketplace made a distinction between Mono-Kote III and 3 the other types of spray-on asbestos-containing 4 fireproofing products with respect to potential health 5 risks. Is that correct? 6 A. I believe the marketplace recognized the 7 difference between the products. 8 Q. With respect to health risks? 9 MR. REPPERT: Objection. There's been no 10 testimony that -- you're asking him to compare health 11 risks. There's no testimony that the Mono-Kote product 12 had any health risks. 13 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 14 Q. Answer the question. 15 A. Can I have the question again? 16 Q. You indicated that you understood -- that you 17 believed that the marketplace understood the distinction 18 between Mono-Kote III and the other types of asbestos19 containing fireproofing products, and so my follow-up 20 question to you was: did they understand that distinction 21 with respect to potential health risks associated with 22 exposure to either product? 'V"> r ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. m yu wfewiWftTAM a?* 'vhaa* 68 1 A. I don't know whether -- 2 MR. REPPERT: Same objection. Go ahead. 3 THE WITNESS: I don't know what their 4 understanding of the exposure was -- or, risk. 5 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 6 Q. All right. Let me go back to one of my original 7 questions I've still not received an answer to, and that B is: during any of the discussion which you had with 9 anyone from W. R. Grace, is it true, then, that no one 10 from Grace ever said to you, "One of the reasons why we 11 need to develop a substitute for Mono-Kote III is because 12 there is a concern in the marketplace over asbestos13 containing fireproofing products? 14 MR. REPPERT: Objection. Asked and answered. 15 About ten times. 16 THE WITNESS: I think there was a concern for any 17 of the -- the other kind. 18 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 19 Q. And the effect that the concern on the other kind 20 would have upon Mono-Kote III in the marketplace? 21 A. No, regarding the impact on the other products. 22 Q. Well, how does that relate to Mono-Kote III, sir? ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. i > '.** 1 PS A* O'AO.fl^AA 69 1 A. I don't think I said that. 2 Q. Well, my question was about Mono-Kote III. It 3 wasn't about the other kind of products. 4 A. I don't -- okay. Would you ask the question 5 again? 6 Q. Okay. I think it just asks for a yes or no, or a 7 "I don't know" type of response. 8 A. One more time. Ask me the question. 9 Q. Did anyone from W. R. Grace every say to you, 10 "One of the reasons why we need to formulate a substitute 11 for Mono-Kote III is that there's a concern in the 12 marketplace about the use of fireproofing products that 13 contain asbestos"? 14 A. There was a concern in the marketplace regarding 15 the asbestos in other products. And I, as I testified 16 earlier, think that the concern regarding asbestos was 17 being driven by regulatory agencies. 18 MR. BOUCHER: Okay. That's not my question. I 19 move to strike as nonresponsive. 20 MR. REPPERT: He's already answered this question 21 about eight times. I'm just not going to let you do it 22 one more time. I'm sorry. You've had enough. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 70 1 MR. BOUCHER: I move to strike as nonresponsive. 2 My question calls for a yes or no answer, sir. 3 MR. REPPERT: I'm sorry. He's answered this 4 question at least six times the same way. You've asked it 5 the same way. His answer stands on the record. Your 6 question stands on the record. I am going to ask you to 7 move on to other subject matters and don't waste the rest 8 of the day. 9 MR. BOUCHER: Well, I'll only waste the rest of 10 the day if I don't get a response to my questions. * 11 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 12 Q. Did anyone, yes or no -- 13 MR. REPPERT: If you ask him the same question, 14 you might as well forget it, because I'm going to instruct 15 him not to answer. 16 MR. BOUCHER: You can instruct him -- 17 MR. REPPERT: He's had adequate -- you've had -- 18 you've asked the question -- 19 MR. BOUCHER: And he's never responded to it. 20 MR. REPPERT: He has responded to the question. 21 MR. BOUCHER: He's never responded to my 22 question. It's a very simple question. Either somebody ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. '/ 1 1 says something at Grace, or they don't say something at 2 Grace. 3 MR HENDERSON: Well, on every question, it isn't 4 a yes or no answer. 5 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 6 Q. Did somebody at Grace ever say to you that one of 7 the reasons for the need to reformulate Mono-Kote III was 8 the fact that there was a perception in the marketplace -- 9 a negative perception in the marketplace about asbestos10 containing fireproofing products? 11 MR. REPPERT: I'll let you answer that question 12 one more time, but that's the last time I'll let you 13 answer the question. 14 THE WITNESS: There was a concern in the 15 marketplace regarding sprayed mineral fiber and sprayed 16 asbestos of the other kind. 17 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 18 Q. Did anyone at Grace ever say that that concern in 19 the marketplace was one of the reasons why there was a 20 need to reformulate Mono-Kote III? 21 A. No. The marketplace didn't direct the 22 reformulation of Mono-Kote III -- or, the change. aa r ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. KJ W nr rpnpi 72 1 Q. That's all I needed to know. You've answered the 2 question. 3 Did anyone at W. R. Grace ever tell you that one 4 of the reasons for the need to reformulate Mono-Kote III 5 was that there was a health hazard associated with 6 exposure asbestos-containing Mono-Kote III? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Did you have any discussions with a Mr. Bragg, 9 who was employed by Grace, with respect to the 10 reformulation of Mono-Kote III? 11 A. I don't recall any. 12 Q. Did you have any discussions with Mr. Vining with 13 respect to the reformulation of Mono-Kote III? 14 A. I don't recall any. 15 Q. Did you ever have any discussions with Mr. 16 Pickthall with respect to the reformulation of Mono-Kote 17 III? 18 A. I don't recall any. 19 Q. Do you recall when -- let me rephrase that. 20 Was there a Mono-Kote V that was developed at 21 some point in time? 22 A. Yes. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. '* -in-. -- ~ ^ <->'N < 0*50'*' 73 1 Q. When was Mono-Kote V developed, to the best of 2 your recollection? 3 MR. REPPERT: If you know. 4 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 5 BTr MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 6 Q. Wa= Mono-Kote V developed prior to the regulatory 7 agency involvement in the regulation of sprayed-on e asbestos fireproofing products? 9 MR. REPPERT: Objection. He's just testified he 10 doesn't know when it was developed. 11 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 12 Q. You can answer my question. 13 A. What was the date of the -- that you're referring 14 to? 15 Q. The date doesn't really matter, sir. It's just 16 -- do you recall whether or not Mono-Kote V was developed 17 prior to the time, whenever it was, that there was 16 regulations that precluded the use of Mono-Kote III? 19 A. I don't recall when Mono-Kote V was developed. 20 Q. So you don't recall whether or not it occurred 21 before or after the regulation of Mono-Kote III. 22 A. I do not recall. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. mu' uj nr nnrni *?A-030n 74 1 Q. Do you recall whether MK-4 was developed before 2 the regulation of Mono-Kote III? 3 MR. REPPERT: Before the regulation of Mono-Kote 4 III? 5 MR. BOUCHER: Correct. 6 THE WITNESS: It was developed before Mono-Kote 7 III was precluded. 8 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 9 Q. How soon prior to the time that Mono-Kote III was 10 precluded from being used in the marketplace was Mono-Kote 11 IV developed? 12 A. I don't know. 13 Q. Was it a matter of months? 14 A. I don't know. 15 Q. Was it more than a year? 16 A. I don't know that. 17 Q. Do you recall whether or not you were selling 18 Mono-Kote III prior to the time that Mono-Kote -- strike 19 that. 20 Do you recall whether or not you were selling 21 Mono-Kote IV prior to the time that Mono-Kote III was 22 precluded by the regulatory agencies? ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 75 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And were you selling it prior to that time? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Did you ever gain an understanding as to how long 5 you'd be given, once the regulatory agencies adopted 6 regulations which precluded the use of Mono-Kote III, how 7 much time you'd be given to sell off existing inventories 8 of Mono-Kote III? 9 MR. REPPERT: Objection. There's no foundation 10 there were existing inventories of Mono-Kote III. The 11 question presumes a fact not in evidence. 12 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 13 Q. You may answer the question. 14 A. Isn't it true that your understanding, prior to 15 the adoption of regulations which precluded the use of 16 Mono-Kote III, was that you'd be given ninety days after 17 the adoption of the regulation to continue to sell Mono18 Kote III? 19 A. I don't recall that. 20 Q. Isn't it true that it was your understanding from 21 Grace that you were to make sure that inventories were 22 kept high with respect to Mono-Kote III prior to the time ALDERSON REPORTNG COMPANY, INC. 76 1 that the regulatory agencies precluded the sale of Mono2 Kote III, so that there would be a substantial amount of 3 Mono-Kote III in existence at the time of the regulation? 4 A. I'm not aware of that. 5 Q. Did you ever hear anything from anybody at w. R. 6 Grace with respect to the obtaining of a waiver from the 7 regulatory agencies to permit the continued use of Mono8 Kote III for a period of time, to use up either existing 9 inventories or to finish jobs that were in existence at 10 the time of the regulation of Mono-Kote III? 11 A. I'm not aware of any appeals. 12 Q. Prior to 1973 didn't you participate in lobbying 13 efforts in the State of Oregon to attempt to get the 14 legislature to exempt Mono-Kote III from fireproofing 15 regulations with respect to asbestos-containing products? 16 A. I don't recall that effort. 17 (Document proffered to the witness.) 18 MR. BOUCHER: Can we have marked as Exhibit 1172 19 -- excuse me, 1173, a September 19, 1961 eight-page 20 document "Re: Minutes of August 14, 1961 Meeting" of 21 Vermiculite Institute, signed by Edward R. Murphy, 22 Executive Secretary? ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. ps <s 1 (The document referred to 2 was marked Exhibit 1173 for 3 identification.) 4 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 5 Q. Have you had an opportunity to read Exhibit 1173? 6 A. No. 7 (Witness peruses document.) 8 Q. We can determine whether you need to read the 9 rest of it. 10 Have you ever seen a copy of Exhibit 1173 prior 11 to today? 12 A. I don't recall it. 13 Q. You are listed as being one of the individuals 14 who is a member of the plaster committee. Do you see that 15 on the front page? 16 A. I do. 17 Q. Okay. It indicates that this is sent to the 18 members of the plaster committee. Do you see that? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. Was it generally the practice of the Vermiculite 21 Institute to send copies of minutes such as these to those 22 individuals who are listed as member of the committee to ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 78 1 which they're to be sent? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. And did you generally receive copies of minutes 4 from committees that you were a member of during the time 5 that you were a member of the Vermiculite Institute? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. Okay. Is this the type of document you would 8 have received as a member of the plaster committee? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. In 1961 you were a member of the plaster 11 committee of the Vermiculite Institute. Is that correct? 12 A. That's what it says. 13 Q. Okay. What was the plaster committee? What was 14 its job function? 15 A. It was a Vermiculite Institute committee dealing 16 with the aspects of plaster and fireproofing. 17 Q. Do you remember attending a meeting of the 18 plaster committee of the Vermiculite Institute in Chicago, 19 Illinois in or around August of '61? 20 A. I don't. 21 Q. On the second page of Exhibit 1173 it indicates 22 those individuals who were in attendance at the meeting, ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 79 1 at the top of the page. Do you see that? 2 A. I see that. 3 Q. It lists you as being one of the members of the 4 committee that were present at the meeting. Do you see 5 that? 6 A. I do. 7 Q. Do you have any reason to believe that Exhibit 8 1173 is inaccurate insofar as it represents that you are 9 one of the individual members of the plaster committee who 10 were present at the August 14, 1961 meeting? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Do you see the second paragraph under "Review of 13 Fire Test Program," Subparagraph (a), the second paragraph 14 under there, where it begins, "Mr. Culver"? 15 A. I see that. 16 Q. Do you recall making a request of the committee 17 as specified in the second paragraph? 18 A. I do not. 19 Q. The second page -- it states It's page two -- 20 under Subparagraph (d), "Yield of Type MK-3," do you see 21 that? 22 A. I do. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 80 1 Q. Okay. Does that refresh your recollection at all 2 whether or not there was concern in the committee about 3 the yield of Mono-Kote III as opposed to Mono-Kote I? 4 MR. REFPERT: Objection. There's no prior 5 testimony by this witness on that subject. You havsn't 6 established he didn't have a recollection. 7 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 8 Q. You may answer the question. 9 A. I don't recall. 10 Q. Moving over to page seven for the Section (13), 11 ''Promotional Campaign - Plaster, Acoustical, and 12 Fireproofing Products," do you see that? 13 A. I see that. 14 Q. It indicates that Mr. Boone submitted a letter to 15 the plaster committee outlining a commercial campaign. Do 16 you see that? 17 A. I see that. 18 Q. Okay. Do you have any recollection of what types 19 of promotional campaigns were being developed in 1961 with 20 respect to plaster, acoustical, or fireproofing products? 21 A. I don't recall that. 22 Q. Mono-Kote III would be one -- Mono-Kote I and ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 81 1 Mono-Kote III would be two of the types of products that 2 would fall under the category of plaster, acoustical, and 3 fireproofing products, wouldn't they? 4 A. They could be included by this heading. 5 Q. Reading further in that same paragraph it 6 indicates, "He presented details, including advertising, 7 publicity and literature." Does that refresh your e recollection at all that the Vermiculite Institute 9 participated in advertising, publicity, and literature 10 with respect to the products that contained vermiculite? 11 A. I don't recall that. 12 Q. Under Category (14), "Annual Meeting," it 13 indicates that, "[T]he Committee recommended to the 14 Marketing Development Committee that a contest for 15 salesmen be established to determine Best Idea in Selling 16 Type MK Fireproofing in Competition." Do you see that? 17 A. I see that. 18 Q. Does that refresh your recollection at all that 19 the marketing development committee was involved in the 20 sales and the development of sales campaigns for Mono-Kote 21 III, or Mono-Kote products? 22 A. I don't recall it. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 82 1 Q. Let me hand you what we will have marked as 2 Exhibit 1174. 3 (Document proffered to the witness.) 4 It is a three-page document. The first page is a 5 letter dated March 25, 1964 to you, W. V. Culver, from E. 6 L. Perrine. 7 (The document referred to 8 was marked Exhibit 1174 for 9 identification.) 10 Do you need to review Exhibit 1174? 11 A. I have. 12 Q. Did you ever see a copy of Exhibit 1174 prior to 13 today? 14 A. I don't recall it. 15 Q. Exhibit 1174 is addressed to you. Do you see 16 that? 17 A. I see it is addressed to me. 18 Q. Did you generally receive, to the best of your 19 recollection and understanding, copies of documents which 20 were addressed to you from ZONOLITE Division of W. R. 21 Grace? 22 A. Generally. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. r e -- nw WASHINGTON DC. 20001 (2021 628-9300 83 1 Q. Do you have a recollection of what the job duties 2 of Mr. E. L. Perrine as manager of the Evanston Laboratory 3 were with W. R. Grace in March of 1964? 4 A. He was the manager of the Evanston Laboratory. 5 Q. What did he do in that capacity, if you know? 6 A. No, I don't know. 7 Q. Do you recall when ZONOLITE became a division of 8 W. R. Grace? 9 A. I think about 1964. 10 Q. Do you have any understanding as to why Mr. 11 Perrine would be sending you copies of test reports such 12 as the two test reports that are attached to Exhibit 1174? 13 A. I don't recall why he would send that. 14 Q. It indicates on the two attachments to Exhibit 15 1174 that the work was requested by W. V. Culver, 16 Vermiculite Northwest, and J. Huxley, California ZONOLITE. 17 Do you see that? 18 A. I see that. 19 Q. Do you have any recollection as to why you would 20 be requesting work be done by Mr. Perrine at the Evanston 21 Laboratory of the ZONOLITE Division of W. R. Grace? 22 A. I don't recall it. AIDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 20 F ST NW. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20001 1202) 628-9300 84 1 Q. As a licensee of ZONOLITE did you have the 2 ability to request work be done by the laboratories owned 3 and operated b> ZONOLITE? 4 A. I don't recall that I had the right to do that. 5 Q. Do you recall whether you ever did that? 6 A. Nope. Don't recall it. 7 Q. When Grace took over ZONOLITE did you continue to 8 be a licensee of W. R. Grace? 9 A. Did I? 10 Q. Right. Did Vermiculite Northwest? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And as a licensee of W. R. Grace's ZONOLITE 13 Division were you able to use the resources of W. R. Grace 14 to perform tests? 15 A. I don't know that I had the right to do that, or 16 the ability. 17 Q. Reviewing Exhibit 1174, do you have any 18 understanding as to why Mr. Perrine would be sending you 19 copies of exhibits attached to Exhibit 1174? 20 A. I don't recall it. 21 Q. Do you have any recollection of why you would be 22 interested in the properties of 7EX3 asbestos fiber? ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 85 1 A. Only as reported in the test. 2 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to who supplied the 3 asbestos that used in Mono-Kote III? 4 A. The letter of transmittal says they werre from 5 California ZONOLITE. 6 Q. It's your understanding from the transmittal 7 letter that the asbestos that was used in Mono-Kote III 8 was supplied by California ZONOLITE? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Do you have any understanding as to who supplied 11 the asbestos used in Mono-Kote III? 12 MR. REPPERT: What time period? 13 MR. BOUCHER: 1964. 14 THE WITNESS: As I recall, where we got some of 15 our asbestos. 16 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 17 Q. Where did you get some of your asbestos? 18 A. From Johns-Manville. 19 Q. Anyone else? 20 A. I don't recall who else. 21 Q. Let me hand you what we'll have :marked as Exhibit 22 1175. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. NC. 86 1 A. I need to -- I want to clarify that this is 2 referring to some asbestos supplied by California ZONOLITE 3 to them for testing. That's all I know about this. 4 Q. All right. 5 MR. REPPERT: By "this," you're referring to the 6 document, Exhibit No. 1174. 7 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 8 (Document proffered to the witness.) 9 MR. BOUCHER: For the record. Exhibit 1175 is a 10 December 23, 1964 copy of minutes, November 30 through 11 December 1, 1964 meeting of the marketing development 12 committee. And it appears to be approximately twelve 13 pages long. 14 (The document referred to 15 was marked Exhibit 1175 for 16 identification.) 17 (Witness peruses document.) 18 MR. REPPERT: Any particular part you want him to 19 look at? 20 MR. BOUCHER: I just want to see if he recalls 21 receiving a copy of Exhibit 1175 prior to today. 22 THE WITNESS: I don't recall that. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 87 1 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 2 Q. Exhibit 1175 indicates that it is being sent to 3 members of the marketing development committee. Do you 4 see your name under that category? 5 A. I do. 6 Q. Did you generally receive copies of the minutes 7 of the marketing development committee when you were a 8 member of the committee? 9 A. I did. 10 Q. Pardon me? 11 A. I usually did. 12 Q. At the top of the page it indicates that c. H. 13 Wendel is chairman. Do you see that? 14 A. I see that. 15 Q. Do you recall sitting on the marketing 16 development committee at a time when C. H. Wendel was the 17 chairman of the committee? 18 A. I don't recall specifically. 19 Q. On the front page of Exhibit 1175 it lists a 20 number of people, and the second one is Andy Wise, 21 "Meeting of Agricultural Committee." Do you recall 22 whether or not the Vermiculite Institute had an ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, NC. r mw p>r mom wri 88 1 agricultural committee as a standing committee of the 2 institute in 1964? 3 A. It says they had one here. 4 Q. You don't have any reason to disagree with that? 5 A. I don't. 6 Q. On the first page of the minutes of the meeting 7 of the marketing development committee, it indicates that 8 the following people were present at the Union League Club 9 in Chicago, Illinois on November 30th and December 1, 10 1964, and it lists you as one of those people in 11 attendance. Do you see that? 12 A. I see that. 13 Q. Do you have any reason to disagree with what is 14 reflected in Exhibit 1175 with respect to your presence at 15 the meeting? 16 A. I do not. 17 Q. The first full paragraph under the names listed 18 on the front page indicates that the following people are 19 members of the board of directors, and lists you as a 20 member of the board of directors. Do you recall whether 21 you were a member of the board of directors of the 22 Vermiculite Institute in 1964? ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 89 1 A. I do not. 2 Q. Were you ever a member of the board of directors 3 of the Vermiculite Institute? 4 A. I was. 5 Q. And what was your responsibilities as a member of 6 the board of directors of the Vermiculite Institute? 7 A. That of a director, and I don't recall the 8 specific duties. 9 Q. The first category under "General" on page one is 10 "Sales Management Seminar." Does that refresh your 11 recollection at all as to whether or not the marketing 12 development committee was involved in sales management 13 seminars or other types of training of individuals for 14 purposes of selling Mono-Kote -- I mean, vermiculite 15 products? 16 A. I see the notation there. I don't recall it. 17 Q. The fourth page of the minutes, there's a 18 heading, "National Electrical Manufacturers' Assn." Do 19 you see that? 20 A. I see that. 21 Q. Do you recall whether the Vermiculite Institute 22 was involved at any point in time in contacting trade ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 90 1 associations to promote the sale and use of vermiculite2 containing products? 3 A. I see what it says here. I didn't recall that. 4 Q. That doesn't refresh your recollection at all? 5 A. No. 6 Q. On the next page, which is page five, it 7 indicates "Distribution of Institute Masonry Fill Film." 8 Do you have a recollection of the masonry fill film was? 9 A. I have a vague recollection of that. 10 Q. What was your understanding of what that film 11 was? 12 A. It was a -- my recollection of it, it was a film 13 describing the properties of using vermiculite as a 14 masonry insulation. 15 Q. Okay. And underneath the first paragraph under 16 the Subsection "Distribution of Institute Masonry Fill 17 Film," there is a number of associations and institutes. 18 Do you see that? 19 A. I see that. 20 Q. Okay. 21 MR. REPPERT: I have to object to this line of 22 questioning about masonry fill, because that has nothing ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 91 1 whatsoever to do with this case. 2 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 3 Q. Does that refresh your recollection at all that 4 the Vermiculite Institute was involved in the distribution 5 of promotional materials to various associations and 6 institutes to promote the sale of vermiculite products? 7 A. I see what it says here. It doesn't -- 8 Q. That doesn't refresh -- 9 A. -- refresh -- no. 10 Q. Do you recall whether the Vermiculite Institute 11 monitored the sale of Mono-Kote fireproofing products 12 during the time that you were a member of the institute? 13 A. Are you referring to a page here, or is that just 14 a general question? 15 Q. That's just a general question. 16 A. "Monitored" the sales? 17 Q. Right. 18 A. I'm not sure what you mean, "monitored" the 19 sales. 20 Q. Did it try to determine whether or not sales of 21 Mono-Kote fireproofing products were up or down, or 22 anything like that, over the country? AL.DERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 92 1 MR. REPPERT: This is as of the December, 1964 2 Vermiculite Institute meeting? 3 MR. BOUCHER: I'm just asking generally. 4 MR. REPPERT: Did he at any time try to do that? 5 MR. BOUCHER: I didn't ask "him," I asked, was 6 that one of the things that the Vermiculite Institute did. 7 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. 8 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 9 Q. While you were employed by W. R. Grace did you 10 ever provide copies of any articles that appeared in any 11 publications that discussed the health hazards associated 12 with exposure to asbestos to anyone at W. R. Grace? 13 A. I need that question one more time. 14 Q. While you were employed by W. R. Grace, did you 15 ever provide copies of any articles to anyone else 16 employed by W. R. Grace concerning, or that discussed the 17 health hazards associated with exposure to asbestos? 18 A. I don't recall that. 19 MR. BOUCHER: What's your pleasure with respect 20 to lunch? 21 MR. REPPERT: Let's take a break. 22 (Luncheon recess at 12:13 p.m.) ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 93 1 AFTERNOON SESSION 2 (1:30 p.m.) 3 Whereupon, 4 WILLIAM V. CULVER 5 the witn.ss on the stand at the time of recess, having 6 been previously duly sworn, was further examined and 7 testified as follows: 8 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE PLAINTIFF 9 BY MR. BOUCHER: 10 Q. Mr. Culver, have you ever had your deposition 11 taken prior to today? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. On approximately how many occasions? 14 A. Three or so; about. 15 Q. Do you recall approximately what years the 16 depositions were taken? 17 A. I think it was this year and last year. 18 Q. Do you remember the names of any of the cases 19 that your deposition was taken in? 20 A. Bartlett High-School. I'm not sure about Kodiak 21 maybe, and Pacific Northwest Bell. 22 Q. Were those case where the plaintiffs had alleged ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 94 1 property damage as a result of the use of Mono-Kote? 2 A. I don't know what their claim was. 3 Q. Do you recall the names of any of the plaintiffs' 4 attorneys representing the plaintiffs in those cases? 5 A. There was a somebody-Harris on one. I don't 6 remember the others. 7 Q. Are you familiar with the Schroeder, Goldmark 8 firm in Seattle? 9 A. It doesn't ring a bell. 10 Q. Do you remember whether the plaintiffs' attorneys 11 who were representing the plaintiffs in any one of these 12 three cases were from the Seattle area? 13 A. I think Harris was. 14 Q. At the time that you were selling Mono-Kote III 15 in the Northwest area, did you believe that Mono-Kote III 16 was safe to be used by consumers on the project? 17 A. I have no reason to believe otherwise. 18 Q. So you believe that it was safe? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And at the time that you were involved in the 21 sale of Mono-Kote III did you expect that it could be used 22 without adverse health effects to individuals who were ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 95 1 exposed to Mono-Kote III? 2 MR. REPPERT: Objection. Are you talking about 3 applicator exposures? 4 MR. BOUCHER: Any exposures. 5 MR. REPPERT: There's been no testimony that 6 anybody other than -- that there are any exposures to 7 Mono-Kote III. Strike that. 8 I guess I'm objecting that the word "exposure" is 9 vague, and ask that you define it. 10 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 11 Q. You may answer the question. 12 A. I would ask for a definition or an explanation of 13 "exposure." 14 Q. You don't know what the word "exposure" means? 15 MR. REPPERT: He's just asking -- he just 16 answered the question by asking you to explain what you 17 mean. 18 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 19 Q. Do you know what the word "exposure" means? 20 A. It depends on the kind of exposure you're talking 21 about. 22 Q. When you were selling Mono-Kote III, did you ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 96 1 expect that individuals who came into contact with Mono2 Kote III -- that there'd be any adverse health effects to 3 individuals who came into contact with Mono-Kote III? 4 A. I do not expect there would be any adverse health 5 effects from MK-3. 6 Q. Now, at the time that you were involved in the 7 sale of Mono-Kote III, did you expect that the use of e Mono-Kote III would not have an adverse effect upon 9 buildings where Mono-Kote III was used? 10 MR. REPPERT: On buildings? 11 MR. BOUCHER: Correct. 12 THE WITNESS: Would you repeat that question, 13 please? 14 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 15 Q. At the time that you were involved in the sale of 16 Mono-Kote III, you didn't expect it to have an adverse 17 effect upon buildings that were -- where Mono-Kote III was 18 used, did you? 19 MR. REPPERT: Objection. The term "adverse" 20 effect on buildings is completely meaningless to me, 21 anyway, and therefore I object on the grounds that the 22 question doesn't make a bit of sense. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 97 1 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 2 Q. You may answer. 3 A. What do you mean by "adverse"? 4 Q. Any adverse effect whatsoever. 5 MR. REPPERT: Same objection. 6 THE WITNESS: Do you have some understanding of 7 what you mean, "adverse"? 8 MR. BOUCHER: Adverse means adverse. A negative 9 effect upon the building. 10 MR. REPPERT: Same objection. A "negative 11 effect" on a building. I object. That doesn't make any 12 sense. Another question. 13 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 14 Q. You may respond. 15 A. I don't know how to answer your question. 16 Q. You don't understand what an adverse or negative 17 effect means? 18 A. That's right. 16 Q. At the time that you were involved in the sale of 20 Mono-Kote III, you did not expect that buildings where 21 Mono-Kote III was used in would have to have the Mono-Kote 22 III removed from the buildings, did you? ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. MC. 98 1 MR. REPPERT: Now, you're personifying 2 "buildings" in that question. I object on that ground. 3 It doesn't make any sense. 4 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 5 Q. You may respond with an answer, sir. 6 A. I had no thought that Mono-Kote III would ever be 7 removed from the buildings. 8 Q. You didn't think it would ever have to be 9 removed, did you? 10 MR. REPPERT: Objection. There's no testimony it 11 does have to be removed, or ever has had to be removed. 12 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 13 Q. You may answer the question. 14 A. I think I answer it. I said that at that time I 15 had no thoughts that it would ever be removed. 16 Q. At the time that you were involved in the sale of 17 Mono-Kote III, you didn't expect that occupants of 18 buildings where Mono-Kote III was used would be under any 19 kind of potential health risk as a result of the fact that 20 the buildings had Mono-Kote III in them, did you? 21 MR. REPPERT: Objection. No foundation. 22 THE WITNESS: I had no thought that anybody would ALDEPSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 99 1 be exposed to a hazard from Mono-Kote III. 2 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 3 Q. At the time that you sold Mcno-Kote III, you 4 didn't expect that by using Mono-Kote III, a building 5 would be damaged as a result of the use of Mono-Kote III 6 in the building, did you? 7 MR. REPPERT: Objection. Again, the question e doesn't make any sense. Buildings don't use things. 9 People do. I object to the question on the grounds that 10 it's meaningless. 11 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 12 Q. You may answer. 13 A. I didn't visualize that a building would be 14 damaged by the use of Mono-Kote III. 15 Q. Thank you. At some point in time did you become 16 aware that there was a likelihood that the Environmental 17 Protection Agency would ban the use of Mono-Kote III? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. When did you first become aware of the likelihood 20 that the EPA would ban the use of Mono-Kote III? 21 A. I don't remember exactly. 22 Q. Prior to the time that the EPA banned the use of ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 100 1 Mono-Kote III, did you become aware that some cities in 2 the United States had banned the use of sprayed-on 3 asbestos-containing fireproofing material, including 4 Mono-Kote, from use? 5 A. I heard that some jurisdictions had banned the 6 use fit asbestos. 7 Q. Including the use of Mono-Kote III. Correct? 8 A. Asbestos. 9 Q. And within that, included the ban of the use of 10 Mono-Kote III? 11 MR. REPPERT: Objection. Asked and answered. 12 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 13 Q. Correct? 14 A. I don't know that they did that. I said that I 15 understood that they banned the use of asbestos. 16 Q. And you understood, as a result of that ban, that 17 architects could not use Mono-Kote III in those 18 jurisdictions, as a result. Right? 19 A. That's probably not accurate; no. 20 Q. So it was your understanding that in the 21 jurisdictions which banned the use of asbestos-containing 22 products, that Mono-Kote III could also -- could still be ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 101 1 used in those jurisdictions. Is that correct? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Well, what was your understanding? 4 MR. REPPERT: Objection. 5 THE WITNESS: My understanding was that asbestos 6 was banned in some jurisdictions. 7 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 8 Q. Okay. And in some of those jurisdictions where 9 asbestos was banned was it also your understanding that as 10 a result of that ban, people could not use Mono-Kote III? 11 A. They couldn't use any Mono -- any asbestos. 12 Q. Including Mono-Kote III? 13 A. That -- if there is asbestos in Mono-Kote III -- 14 Q. It was your understanding at the time that there 15 was asbestos in Mono-Kote III, wasn't it? 16 A. That's right. 17 Q. So as a result of the bans, it was your 18 understanding that people could not use Mono-Kote III in 19 those areas. Right? 20 A. That -- that would follow. 21 Q. Okay. How many months prior to the actual ban on 22 the use of sprayed-on asbestos fireproofing materials by ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 1 the EPA did you become aware of the likelihood that the 2 EPA would ban the use of sprayed-on asbestos fireproofing 3 material? 4 MR. REPPERT: Objection. Asked and answered. 5 MR. BOUCHER: The question's not been asked. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 7 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 8 Q. Was it more than three months? 9 A. I don't know that. 10 Q. Was it more than a year? 11 A. I don't know. I don't recall how much -- when I 12 heard that. 13 Q. What was your understanding as to the reason why 14 the EPA ban on sprayed-on asbestos fireproofing material 15 was also going to include a ban on the use of Mono-Kote 16 III? 17 MR. REPPERT: Objection. No foundation that he 18 knew why the EPA was doing anything. 19 THE WITNESS: I don't know why they did it. 20 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 21 Q. You had no understanding? 22 A. No. AIDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 103 1 Q. Nobody from Grace made you aware of the reasons 2 behind it? 3 A. I don't recall. 4 MR. REPPERT: Objection. There's no foundation 5 that anyone at Grace knew the reasons behind it. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. 7 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 8 Q. When you learned that it was likely that the EPA 9 was going to ban the use of sprayed-on asbestos 10 fireproofing material, including Mono-Kote III, did you 11 understand that it was as a result of a perceived 12 potential health effect from exposure to asbestos? 13 MR. REPPERT: Objection. He's already testified 14 he didn't know why the EPA acted, therefore he's already 15 answered that question. 16 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 17 Q. You may answer. 18 A. I had a hard time following that question. There 19 were too many pieces to it. 20 Q. All right. 21 A. Try me again. 22 Q. Sure. At the time that you became aware that the ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 104 1 EPA was likely to ban the use of sprayed-on asbestos2 containing fireproofing material, did you gain the 3 understanding that one of the reasons for the ban was the 4 perceived potential health effect from exposure to 5 asbestos? 6 MR. REPPERT: Objection. The witness has already 7 testified that he has no knowledge as to why the EPA took 8 its action. It's merely the same question in different 9 clothing. Asked and answered. 10 THE WITNESS: I don't know why. 11 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 12 Q. You had no understanding that the potential 13 health effects of exposure to asbestos had anything to do 14 with that? 15 MR. REPPERT: Objection. 16 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 17 Q. Is that correct? 18 MR. REPPERT: Same ground. 19 THE WITNESS: I don't why they did it. 20 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 21 Q. Well, I understand that. I'm asking you for your 22 understanding. You had absolutely no understanding that ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 105 1 the potential health effects of exposure to asbestos had 2 anything to do with the EPA ban. Is that correct? 3 A. I don't recollect why they did it. I don't know. 4 Q. Okay. When Mono-Kote IV was placed on the market 5 it was an asbestos-free product. Correct? 6 A. That's what I understand. 7 Q. Do you understand that at the time it was placed 8 on the market that it was contaminated with tremolite? 9 MR. REPPERT: Objection. No foundation. There's 10 absolutely no evidence to support that in this record. 11 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure -- I don't know what I 12 was aware of at that time. 13 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 14 Q. Were you aware at that time that vermiculite -- 15 one of the contaminants of vermiculite was tremolite? 16 MR. REPPERT: Objection. 17 THE WITNESS: I was aware -- 18 MR. REPPERT: No foundation. 19 THE WITNESS: I was aware that vermiculite -- 20 that asbestos occurred with vermiculite. 21 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 22 Q. After you became aware that the EPA was likely to ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 106 1 ban the use of sprayed-on asbestos fireproofing materials 2 that contained asbestos, did you continue to sell Mono3 Kote III in the Northwest region? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And after the time that Mono-Kote IV was placed 6 on the market, and prior to the time that the EPA banned 7 the use of sprayed-on asbestos fireproofing material that 8 contained asbestos, did you continue to sell Mono-Kote 9 III? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Why did you continue to sell Mono-Kote III after 12 you learned that the EPA was likely to ban the use of 13 sprayed-on asbestos-containing fireproofing material, and 14 prior to the ban? 15 A. I didn't know of any reason not to sell it. 16 Q. Didn't you understand by that point in time that 17 asbestos was perceived to be a cause of asbestosis and 18 lung cancer? 19 MR. REPPERT: Objection. Argumentative. Asked 20 and answered. 21 THE WITNESS: Asbestos was identified as a -- has 22 been identified as a health hazard at that time. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 107 1 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 2 Q. And you were aware of that identification at that 3 time. 4 MR. REPFERT: Objection. Asked and answered. 5 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 6 Q. Correct? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. Did you have an understanding at that point in 9 time as to the amount of asbestos necessary to cause 10 mesothelioma -- the amount of exposure necessary to cause 11 mesothelioma? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did you ever see any articles in any trade 14 publications which discussed the potential health hazards 15 associated with exposure to asbestos prior to 1973? 16 A. Other than the NEW YORKER, I don't recall any. 17 Q. Did you see any discussions in any local papers 18 concerning the potential exposure to asbestos prior to 19 1973? 20 A. I think the same applies. I don't recall any. 21 Q. If you had seen articles published in any 22 newspaper or trade publication which discussed the ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 108 1 association between exposure to asbestos and its health 2 effects on people, was it part of your responsibility to 3 provide copies of that information to Mr. Wendel? 4 MR. REPPERT: Objection. Hypothetical. He's 5 stated he doesn't have any knowledge. It's purely 6 hypothetical. There's no basis for it. Improper 7 question. 8 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 9 Q. You may answer. 10 A. I might have. 11 Q. Was that one of your responsibilities, or was 12 that just something that you would have done? 13 A. It's probably something that I would have done as 14 a matter of course. 15 Q. Why? 16 A. Had there been such a thing, it would mean -- 17 that was something he would have needed to know. 18 Q. Something he needed to know for what reason? 19 MR. REPPERT: Objection. Hypothetical question. 20 Hypothetical foundation. 21 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 22 Q. You may answer. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 20 F ST., N.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20001 12021 828-9300 1 A. I think it was my responsibility to keep Mr. 2 Wendel advised of any aspects of our business, and that 3 would have included lots of things. 4 Q. And the potential health hazards associated with 5 exposure to asbestos contained in any of your products 6 would have been one of the things that you felt it was 7 your responsibility to keep him abreast of. 8 MR. REPPERT: Objection. He's instructed not to 9 answer that question. That's a highly improper question. 10 There's no foundation whatsoever that there was any health 11 hazard in connection with asbestos in our products. And 12 you're trying to put words in his mouth, and I'm not going 13 to let you do it. Ask something else. 14 MR. BOUCHER: That's not putting words -- 15 MR. REPPERT: Yes, you are. You're trying to get 16 him to say something which is not in the record, has no 17 foundation, and I don't -- I frankly resent it. And I'm 18 not going to let the witness answer that question. 19 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 20 Q. Are you going to follow the attorney's 21 instructions and refuse to answer my question? 22 A. That's correct. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 110 1 Q. Are you being represented here by an attorney? 2 A. I am. 3 Q. Who are you being represented by? 4 A. Mr. Reppert. 5 Q. Did you have any discussions with anyone 6 concerning your -- or, in preparation for your deposition 7 here today, other than attorneys? 8 A. I don't think so. 9 Q. Did you review any documents in preparation for 10 your deposition today? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. What documents did you review? 13 MR. REPPERT: He's instructed not to answer that. 14 Work product. Attorney/client. 15 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 16 Q. Are you going to follow your attorney's 17 instructions and refuse to answer my question? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. How many documents did you review in preparation 20 for your deposition? 21 MR. REPPERT: Objection. He's instructed not to 22 answer that. Work product. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 111 1 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 2 Q. Are you going to follow your attorney's 3 instructions and refuse to answer my question? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Were any of the documents that you reviewed in 6 preparation for your deposition today documents that you 7 had in your possession prior your deposition today? e MR. REPPERT: Objection. He's instructed not to 9 answer that. Work product and attorney/client. 10 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 11 Q. Are you going to follow your attorney's 12 instructions and refuse to answer my question? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Do you maintain any files at the present time 15 that have anything to do with asbestos or the potential 16 health hazards associated with exposure to asbestos? 17 A. We have a lot of files out at Auburn, and I can't 18 tell you what they are. 19 Q. Who is the custodian of records, of the files? 20 A. My secretary. 21 Q. Let me hand you a one-page letter dated, I 22 believe, January 28, 1969, from W. V. Culver to "Buzz." ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANV. INC. 112 1 MR. BOUCHER: We'll have it marked as Exhibit 2 1176. 3 (The document referred to 4 was marked Exhibit 1176 for 5 identification.) 6 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 7 Q. Have you had an opportunity to review Exhibit 8 1176? 9 A. Yes. Uh-huh. 10 Q. Do you recall dictating Exhibit 1176? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Is 1176 the type of correspondence that you would 13 normally dictate in the regular course of your business at 14 W. R. Grace? 15 MR. REPPERT: Objection. 16 THE WITNESS: Memos to Mr. Wendel are the kind of 17 thing I did. 18 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 19 Q. Did you keep or maintain a file of copies of 20 correspondence memos that you sent to Mr. Wendel? 21 A. Files were kept. 22 Q. Do you still maintain custody or control over ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 113 1 files containing memorandums that you sent to Mr. Wendel? 2 A. Not that I know of. 3 Q. What did you do with that correspondence? 4 A. I didn't do anything with it. 5 Q. What happened to it? 6 A. Over a period of time stuff is -- we don't keep 7 files for twenty years. 8 Q. What is your policy with respect to keeping 9 files? 10 A. I don't know that we had a policy. 11 Q. Do you have any understanding as to why you would 12 have sent a carbon copy of this memorandum to Mr. Bushel1? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Have you any understanding -- 15 A. No. 16 Q. -- as to why you would have sent a carbon copy of 17 this memorandum to Mr. Barron? 18 A. Not specifically, no. 19 Q. Do you have any recollection as to why you would 20 have sent a carbon copy of this memorandum to Mr. Egan? 21 A. Not specifically. 22 Q. Do you have any recollection as to why you would ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, NC. '.14 1 have sent a copy of this memorandum to Mr. Dambros? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Do you have an understanding as to why you would 4 have sent a copy of this memorandum to Mr. Wendel? 5 A. Only that it's something that I felt he should 6 know at the time, I guess. 7 Q. Reviewing -- 8 A. And likewise, it'd be, to the other people. 9 Q. Reviewing Exhibit 1176, does it refresh your 10 recollection that prior to January 28th, 1969 you had 11 discussions with individuals from W. R. Grace about 12 getting a substitute for asbestos in Mono-Kote? 13 A. I don't recall any such discussions. 14 Q. The second paragraph -- excuse me, the second 15 sentence in this memorandum indicates that, ''This might be 16 the answer to a 'maiden's prayer.'" Why did you use the 17 term ''maiden's prayer"? 18 A. I sure don't know. 19 Q. What does the term "maiden's prayer" mean to you, 20 sir? 21 A. I don't know what it meant in this context. 22 Q. Well, what does it mean to you, in any context? ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 115 1 A. I -- the context -- the maiden is praying for 2 something. I don't know what it means here. 3 Q. So you don't understand why you used the term, / "[A] 'maiden's prayer' for getting a substitute for 5 asbestos in Mono-Kote." You have no understanding or 6 recollection of why you used that term? 7 A. I don't recall what happened; how this came 8 about. 9 Q. Your last two words in this memo are :o "horsefeather problems." Do you see that? 11 A. I see that. 12 Q. What do you mean by the "horsefeather problem"? 13 A. Horsefeathers was an appellation that we applied 14 to sprayed mineral fiber, sprayed asbestos. 15 Q. Did you understand in 1969 that there was a 16 problem with that process? 17 A. I don't recall when I understood there was a 18 problem. 19 Q. Did you regularly read WALLS AND CEILINGS back in 20 1969? 21 A. We had a subscription to it. 22 Q. And did you review it on a regular basis when ALDERSON REPORTWG COMPANY. INC. 116 1 your subscription came in? 2 A. Not necessarily regularly. 3 Q. In 1969, January of 1969, who was Leslie Barron 4 -- the position held by Leslie Barron? 5 A. He was with the Vermiculite Institute at some 6 time. I don't remember how long he was with them. 7 Q. Was he ever with W. R. Grace? 8 A. Not that I know of. 9 Q. In what capacity was he with the Vermiculite to Institute? 11 A. At one time he was executive secretary. 12 Q. Do you recall ever having any discussions with 13 Mr. Barron or anyone else at the Vermiculite Institute 14 about the need for developing an asbestos-free alternative 15 or substitute for Mono-Kote III? 16 A. I don't recall that discussion. 17 Q. Let me hand you what we will have marked as 18 Exhibit 1177. It is a one-paye letter dated February 7, 19 1969, to R. W. Sterrett from Leslie A. Barron. 20 (The document referred to 21 was marked Exhibit 1177 for 22 identification.) ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 117 1 Have you had an opportunity to review Exhibit 2 1177? 3 A. Yes, I've read this one. 4 Q. Let me give you back Exhibit 1176 for a moment, 5 please. Do you ever recall seeing Exhibit 1176 prior to 6 today? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. When was the last time you saw Exhibit 1176? 9 A. I don't recall. 10 Q. Did you ever discuss 1176 in any of the 11 depositions that you've had taken? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Did you discuss 1176 in all the depositions that 14 you've had taken? 15 A. I don't recall. 16 Q. Have you ever seen Exhibit 1177 before? 17 A. I don't recall seeing this one before. 18 Q. To the best of your understanding, did you 19 generally receive carbon copies of materials sent to you 20 by Leslie A. Barron? 21 A. I received copies of some things from Mr. Barron. 22 Q. Do you have a recollection of what D. J. Boone's ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 118 1 position was in February of 1969? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Exhibit 1177 discusses the potential use of glass 4 fiber as a substitute for asbestos in vermiculite Type MK. 5 Having reviewed Exhibit 1177, does it refresh your 6 recollection at all as to when you first heard of the 7 possibility of developing an asbestos-free alternative to 8 MK-3? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Having reviewed Exhibit 1177, do you believe that 11 the first discussions you had with respect to the 12 development of an asbestos-free alternative to MK-3 was 13 prior to February of 1969? 14 A. I don't know that that follows. I don't know 15 when I had it, the first discussion. 16 Q. Having reviewed Exhibit 1177 and 1176, does it 17 refresh your recollection that Mr. Sterrett and Mr. Egan 18 were individuals who you had discussions at W. R. Grace 19 with, with respect to the development of an asbestos-free 20 MK-3? 21 MR. REPPERT: I guess I didn't quite follow that 22 question. Could we have it back, or ask it again? ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 119 1 MR. BOUCHER: Sure. 2 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 3 Q. Having reviewed Exhibits 1177 and 1176, does it 4 refresh your recollection that you had discussions with 5 Mr. Sterrett and Mr. Egan about the possibility of 6 developing an asbestos-free Mono-Kote? 7 MR. REPPERT: Objection. There's no testimony or 8 foundation that he had such discussions. 9 THE WITNESS: I don't remember the discussions. 10 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 11 Q. The next to the last paragraph in Exhibit 77 12 reads, "With the comments raised in some corners of the 13 country about asbestos, I wonder if this does not have 14 some merit." Do you see that? 15 A. I see that. 16 Q. Do you have any understanding as to what 17 discussions were occurring, or comments raised in some 18 corners of the country about asbestos in February of 1969? 19 A. I don't know what these specific references are. 20 Q. And you don't have any independent recollection 21 of any discussions or comments around the country about 22 asbestos, and the harmful effects that asbestos may have ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. e kj w W8.<wiKjnroN DC 120 1 upon individuals who are exposed to asbestos fibers? 2 MR. REPPERT: Objection. Foundation. 3 THE WITNESS: I've testified about the NEW YORKER 4 article previously. 5 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 6 Q. Okay. You don't recall whether the NEW YORKER -- 7 having reviewed Exhibits 1177 and 1176, you don't recall 8 whether the NEW YORKER article appeared prior to January, 9 1969, do you? 10 A. No, I don't. 11 Q. Let me hand you what will be marked as Exhibit 12 1178. It is a one-page letter dated March 19, 1977 from 13 T. Egan to a number of individuals, "Subject: Request for 14 Asbestos Content of Mono-Kote by S.O.M." with an 15 attachment from W. V. Culver. 16 (The document referred to 17 was marked Exhibit 1178 for 18 identification.) 19 Have you reviewed Exhibit 1178? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Have you ever seen 1178 prior to today? 22 A. Yes. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 121 1 Q. When was the last time you saw Exhibit 1178? 2 A. Yesterday. 3 Q. When you reviewed Exhibit 1178 yesterday, did you 4 recall seeing Exhibit 1178 prior to that time? 5 A. Don't recall it. 6 Q. When you reviewed Exhibit 1178 yesterday, was 7 that with your attorneys? 8 MR. REPPERT: Objection. He's instructed not to 9 answer that. 10 MR. BOUCHER: You're instructing him not to 11 answer whether or not he reviewed this with his attorneys? 12 MR. REPPERT: Yes. You're not entitled to get 13 anything about what communications he had with his 14 attorneys. 15 MR. BOUCHER: Oh, but I'm certainly entitled to 16 find out whether attorneys were present so that I know 17 whether or not I can get into any discussions he had about 18 the document. 19 MR. REPPERT: You can ask him what discussions he 20 had about the document, if you want to. 21 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 22 Q. What discussions did you have about Exhibit 1178? ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 122 1 MR. REPPERT: He's instructed not to answer that 2 question. 3 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 4 Q. Are you going to follow your attorney's 5 instructions and refuse to answer my question? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. You understand, sir, that by refusing to answer 8 my question, you are forcing me to get a motion to compel 9 you to answer my questions? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Let me tell you that I am going to seek a motion 12 to compel from the magistrate involved in this case to 13 force you to answer my questions with respect to Exhibit 14 1178, and some of the other questions that I've asked that 15 you've refused to answer today. 16 And I will seek, in addition to that, sanctions 17 against you and against your client for your refusal to 18 answer, in addition to costs of me having to come back up 19 here to depose you again. 20 Do you understand that? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Are you still refusing to answer my question ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 123 1 about 1178? 2 MR. REPPERT: Your question about 1178? You'd 3 better make it clear what your question is. 4 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 5 Q. Are you still refusing to answer as to, one, 6 whether or not you reviewed Exhibit 1178 with attorneys? 7 MR. REPPERT: May we have a quick break? 8 (Discussion off the record.) 9 MR. REPPERT: He's instructed not to answer the 10 question. 11 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 12 Q. Are you going to follow the instructions and 13 refuse to answer my question? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Sir, what discussions did you have with respect 16 to Exhibit 1178 yesterday? 17 MR. REPPERT: He's instructed not to answer that 18 question to the extent that question covers discussion 19 that he had with his counsel. 20 MR. BOUCHER: Well, there's no information in the 21 record to indicate that he had any discussions with his 22 counsel with 1178, since you've instructed him not to tell alderson reporting company, INC. 124 1 me whether or not counsel were present when 1178 -- 2 MR. REPPERT: I'm instructing him not to answer 3 that question to the extent it requires him to divulge any 4 conversation he had with his counsel. 5 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 6 Q. Mr. Culver, did you have any -- who did you -- 7 what conversations did you have with respect to 1178 8 yesterday? 9 MR. REPPERT: To the extent that in order to 10 answer thut, you have to disclose the conversations you 11 had with counsel, you are instructed not to answer. Do 12 you understand my instruction? 13 THE WITNESS: I don't -- 14 MR. REPPERT: If you had some conversation with 15 someone who is not counsel, to make it perfectly clear -- 16 for example, someone you might know outside of -- well, if 17 you had conversations about this document with anyone 18 other than your counsel, yesterday, you may answer the 19 question and describe those conversations. If the only 20 discussions you had regarding this document were with your 21 counsel, then you are instructed not to answer as to those 22 conversations. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 125 1 MR. BOUCHER: I'm going to instruct -- I'm going 2 to object to counsel's comments with respect to Exhibit 3 1178, because there's no evidence in the record to 4 indicate that he had any discussions with any counsel 5 about this document. 6 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 7 Q. You may answer my question, sir. 8 A. I'm not going to answer it. 9 Q. In 1970, what was the percentage by way of 10 asbestos content of Mono-Kote III? 11 A. I understand it was about ten percent. 12 Q. From whom did you gain that understanding? 13 A. It's been historic. 14 Q. And from what historian did you gain that 15 information? 16 A. I didn't say from an historian. I said it's been 17 historic that that's about the percentage. 18 Q. Okay. The answer to my question goes back to, 19 from whom did you obtain the information and understanding 20 it was ten percent by weight? 21 MR. REPPERT: Objection. Asked and answered. 22 THE WITNESS: I don't know where. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 126 1 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 2 Q. Do you have an understanding as to why you 3 received a carbon copy of Exhibit 1178 from Mr. Egan? 4 A. Only that he wanted me to have this information. 5 Q. Do you understand -- have any understanding as to 6 why he wanted you to have this information? 7 A. Only what it said here. 8 Q. As of March of 1970, having reviewed Exhibit 9 1178, do you have any recollection as to whether or not by 10 March of '70 you had discussions with anyone from Grace 11 about the need to develop an asbestos-free alternative to 12 Mono-Kote III? 13 MR. REPPERT: Can we take a short break? 14 (Discussion off the record.) 15 MR. REPPERT: Well, yeah, go ahead and answer the 16 question. 17 THE WITNESS: The question was? 18 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 19 Q. The question was, I believe: do you have any 20 understanding as to why you received a copy of Exhibit 21 1178 from Mr. Egan? 22 A. I think I answered that, that he wanted me to ALDERSON REPORTING! COMPANY. NC. 127 1 have the information. 2 Q. Do you have any understanding as to why he wanted 3 you to have this information? 4 A. Only what it says here. 5 MR. REPPERT: Let's take a break now. I have a 6 phone call. 7 (Brief recess.) 8 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 9 Q. 10 says, In the second paragraph, the last portion, it 11 about 12 why Mr 13 A. Where are you? 14 Q. 15 A. 16 Q. 17 was in 18 A. He was my counterpart in Phoenix. 19 Q. Who was Mr. Greer? 20 A. He was a licensee in Houston. 21 Q. And who was Mr. Irvine? 22 A. A licensee in Salt Lake City. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. ........... nr ^nnoi i 858-0300 128 1 Q. Who was Mr. Moran? 2 A. A licensee in Dallas. 3 Q. Who was Mr. Roberts? 4 A. A licensee in Great Falls. 5 Q. When was the last time you had any contact with 6 Mr. Wendel? 7 A. Six weeks ago. 8 Q. Do you know where he presently resides? 9 A. Emerald Bay? 10 Q. What State? 11 A. California. I think it's Emerald Bay. 12 Q. Do you know his phone number? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Do you know his address? 15 A. Yes, Emerald -- no, I don't. It's down there 16 somewhere. Easily found. 17 Q. The time you had discussions with Mr. Wendel -- 18 A. I'm sorry. Start that again. 19 Q. The time that you had a discussion with Mr. 20 Wendel, this was six weeks ago, did this lawsuit come up 21 during the course of that conversation at all? 22 A. No. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 1 Q. Did anything about asbestos and Mono-Kote come up 2 during the course of that conversation? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Let me hand you what we'll now have marked as 5 Exhibit 1179. It is a June 19, 1970 letter from A. W. 6 Dambros to a number of individuals including yourself. 7 (The document referred to 8 was marked 1179 for 9 identification.) 10 Have you had an opportunity to review Exhibit 11 1179? 12 A. I have. 13 Q. It says, "Subject: Recent developments in 14 Asbestos problems." In 1970, what was your understanding 15 of the asbestos problem? 16 A. My understanding of an asbestos problem was that 17 the other material was very asbestosy and caused a lot of 18 problems. 19 Q. And that the problems with the asbestos material 20 would be health effects, or potential health effects, to 21 those individuals who came into contact with the material? 22 Is that correct? ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. M ui * n* 4 13 1 MR. REPPERT: Which asbestos material does your 2 question refer to? 3 MR. BOUCHER: The one he just referred to. 4 THE WITNESS: The sprayed asbestos material? 5 MR. BOUCHER: Yes. 6 THE WITNESS: The other kind of material. 7 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 8 Q. Was that your understanding? 9 A. That was my understanding. 10 MR. REPPERT: Was what his understanding? 11 MR. BOUCHER: The problem with the health 12 effects, or potential health effects, for those who came 13 into contact with it. 14 MR. REPPERT: Objection to the words "came into 15 contact." It's a vague term. He's already testified that 14 his understanding related to the airborne fibers created 17 by the application of that product. 18 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 19 Q. You may answer. 20 A. Restate your question, please. 21 Q. You indicated that you understoodthe problem was 22 with the asbestos material, and my question to you is, was ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 1 " *' * /or*')) 131 1 the problem with the asbestos material the potential 2 health effect on the people who came into contact with 3 that material? It's quite simple. 4 MR. REPPERT: And for purposes of making the 5 record clear, your question refers to the sprayed asbestos 6 fiber material? 7 MR. BOUCHER: My question refers to whatever 6 asbestos material Mr. Culver meant in his answer to my 9 previous question. 10 MR. REPPERT: Okay. In your answer, make it 11 clear what material you're referring to, if you can answer 12 the question as it now sits. 13 THE WITNESS: I hate to do this to you. One more 14 time. Let me be clear of your question. 15 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 16 Q. I'll start from the beginning. Exhibit 1179 17 says, "Subject: Recent developments in Asbestos 18 problems." What was your understanding of what was meant 19 by asbestos problems in Exhibit 1179. 20 MR. REPPERT: Objection. No foundation as to 21 what the author meant when it was written. 22 THE WITNESS: My understanding of the asbestos ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 132 1 problem is one relating to what did occur with the sprayed 2 asbestos fiber, being the other product, and all of the 3 airborne asbestos that it created. 4 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 5 Q. And the potential health effects of that airborne 6 asbestos created for people who came into contact with 7 that airborne asbestos fiber? Is that right? 8 MR. REPPERT: Objection to the form of the 9 question. 10 THE WITNESS: I think somebody else established a 11 health hazard. 12 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 13 Q. The second paragraph indicates that, "While in 14 our minds the directive very obviously applied to sprayed 15 asbestos, it was in isolated areas used on Mono-Kote 16 operations." Do you have an understanding what is meant 17 by that sentence? 18 A. I don't know what the "directive" was. 19 Q. Okay. The very next sentence says, "The 20 background for the directive everyone is certainly aware 21 of." Do you see that? 22 A. I see it. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. mw nr 626-9300 133 1 Q. Okay. And a copy of Exhibit 1179 is directed to 2 your attention, is it not? 3 A. I see it. Yes. My name. 4 Q. Were you aware of the directive that is referred 5 to, that, everyone is certainly aware of -- 6 MR. REPPERT: Objection. He -- 7 MR. BOUCHER: -- as referred to in Exhibit 1179? 8 MR. REPPERT: He just said he didn't know what 9 the directive was. 10 THE WITNESS: I don't know what the directive 11 was. 12 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 13 Q. When is the last time you saw a copy of 1179? 14 A. I don't remember seeing it. 15 Q. Exhibit 1179 has a check by your name. Does that 16 indicate that this would be a carbon copy of the copy that 17 you received? 18 A. I don't how the check got there. 19 Q. Was it normal practice for a check to be placed 20 by the name of the individual whose carbon copy this was? 21 A. I don't know what normal practice is. I don't 22 know how that check got by my name. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 20 P ST N.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20001 1202) 828-9300 13 1 Q. What was Mr. Dambros' job responsibilities in 2 June of 1970? 3 A. He was my counterpart in the Los Angeles area. 4 Q. On the second page, in the third paragraph, the 5 first sentence reads: "This letter is intended to keep 6 you abreast of what we feel are important developments in 7 this entire picture." Do you see that? 8 A. I see it. 9 Q. What is your understanding of what is meant by 10 the term "this entire picture"? 11 MR. REPPERT: If you know. 12 THE WITNESS: I don't know what he had in mind. 13 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 14 Q. The next sentence says: "This letter should not 15 in any way stop us from continuing with our most pressing 16 immediate problem, namely, the elimination of asbestos 17 from our present product." Do you see that? 18 MR. REPPERT: Yeah. And read the rest of that 19 sentence. "However, I personally feel until this does 20 occur we can both morally and honestly continue" -- 21 MR. BOUCHER: Counsel, let me ask -- 22 MR. REPPERT: -- "promoting Mono-Kote" -- ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. c er MW WASHINGTON, D.C 20001 1202) 628-8300 135 1 MR. BOUCHER: -- my questions. 2 MR. REPPERT: -- "without fear." Thank you. 3 MR. BOUCHER: Move to strike counsel1s comments 4 from the record. 5 MR. REPPERT: It's not a comment. I'm reading 6 the rest of the paragraph. 7 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 8 Q. The next sentence reads, "This letter should not 9 in any way stop us from continuing with our most pressing 10 immediate problem, namely the elimination of asbestos from 11 our present product." Do you see that? 12 A. I see that. 13 MR. REPPERT: And will you read the next 14 sentence, please? 15 MR. BOUCHER: Can I ask my questions, please? 16 MR. REPPERT: You may. 17 MR. BOUCHER: Thank you. 18 MR. REPPERT: I'm just asking you to read on. 19 MR. BOUCHER: No. I'm conducting this 20 deposition, thank you. 21 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 22 Q. Was it your understanding that the most present re- ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. WASHINGTON DC 20001 (2021 628-9300 136 1 immediate -- pressing immediate problem as of June of 1970 2 was the elimination of asbestos from Grace's Mono-Kote 3 III? 4 MR. REPPERT: Objection. No foundation. 5 THE WITNESS: That was not my most pressing 6 problem. 7 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 8 Q. Was it your understanding that it was Grace's 9 most pressing problem at that point in time? 10 MR. REPPERT: Objection. Foundation. 11 THE WITNESS: I don't know what Grace's most 12 pressing problem was. 13 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 14 Q. So you were receiving documents such as Exhibit 15 1179, and you had absolutely no understanding in June of 16 -- strike that. 17 You were receiving documents such as Exhibit 18 11979, and you had no understanding in June of 1970 why 19 you were receiving copies of that. Right? 20 MR. REPPERT: Objection. Argumentative. 21 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 22 Q. Is that correct? ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 13 1 MR. REPPERT: Argumentative. Objection. 2 THE WITNESS: Just so I'd be kept informed. 3 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 4 Q. And at that point in time you had absolutely no 5 understanding that it was a pressing desire of W. R. Grace 6 to develop an asbestos-free alternative or substitute to 7 Mono-Kote III. Right? 8 MR. REPPERT: Objection. Argumentative. Asked 9 and answered. 10 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 11 Q. Is that your testimony, sir? 12 A. I don't know that the development of a successor 13 to Mono-Kote III was our most pressing problem. 14 Q. Prior to 1973, did you have any inquiries from 15 any State agencies in the Northwestern district with 16 respect to potential health hazards associated with the 17 use of Mono-Kote III? 18 A. I don't recall any. 19 Q. Do you recall the Worker's Compensation Board 20 from the State of Oregon contacting you about potential 21 health hazards associated with the use of Mono-Kote III in 22 1970? ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 70 r st. N W WASHINGTON. D.C. 20001 (2021 826-9300 138 1 A. I don't recall that. 2 MR. BOUCHER: Let me have this February 9, 1970 3 letter from W. V. Culver to Worker's Compensation Board, 4 Labor and Industries Building, Salem, Oregon marked as 5 Exhibit 1180, please. 6 (The document referred to 7 was marked Exhibit 1180 for 8 identification.) 9 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 10 Q. Do you see Exhibit 1180? 11 A. I see it. 12 Q. Have you reviewed it? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What was Bob Rainfall's position in December of 15 1970? 16 A. Salesman. 17 Q. Why would you have a carbon copy of Exhibit 1180 18 to Mr. Rainfall? 19 A. Randall is his name. 20 Q. Randall. Thank you. 21 A. Because Oregon was his responsibility. 22 Q. Having reviewed Exhibit 1180, does it refresh ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. u/M>uiwr.rnw rir 30001 1202' 628-9300 139 1 your recollection that your discussions with the Worker's 2 Compensation Board in Oregon with respect to Mono-Kote and 3 the asbestos-containing aspects of -- 4 A. I don't recall it. 5 Q. You don't recall the Worker's Compensation Board 6 inquiring of you regarding the composition of Mono-Kote 7 sprayed fireproofing? 8 A. I do not recall it. 9 Q. Do you recall why you put that Mono-Kote contains to approximately eight percent asbestos in the first 11 paragraph of Exhibit 1180. 12 A. No, I don't recall it. 13 Q. As of December of 1970, it was your understanding 14 that Mono-Kote contained approximately eleven percent 15 asbestos, wasn't it? 16 MR. REPPERT: Objection. You've already asked 17 him. 18 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 19 Q. Isn't that correct? 20 A. Not according to this letter. 21 Q. I'm not asking you about the letter. I'm asking 22 you what your recollection, your understanding is. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 20 F ST.. N.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20001 (202) 828-0300 14 1 A. I have no recollection. 2 MR. BOUCHER: We will have marked as Exhibit 1181 3 -- it is a two-page document with an attached distribution 4 list dated June 26, 1969 from Thomas F. Egan. 5 (The document referred to 6 was marked Exhibit 1181 for 7 identification.) 8 BY MR. 30UCHER: (Resuming) 9 Q. You've had an opportunity to review Exhibit 1181? 10 A. I have. 11 Q. When is the last time you saw Exhibit 1181? 12 A. I don't recall. 13 Q. Do you recall having seen it prior to today? 14 A. I don't recall seeing it. 15 Q. Do you recall having any conversations or 16 discussions with anyone at Grace about the need to 17 advocate attacking Grace's fiber competition? 18 A. I don't any specific discussions. 19 Q. In the last paragraph, the first page, it says: 20 "Combine this with bad practice, sloppy work, medical 21 dangers with asbestos, poor quality materials and you have 22 a real program to go after the architect and get him to ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 1 remove fibers from his specs and to refuse approval of it 2 on the projects." Do you see that? 3 A. I see it. 4 Q. Did you understand in 1969 that as part of your 5 job as district manager, you were to explain to architects 6 the bad practice, sloppy work, medical dangers with 7 asbestos, poor quality materials with respect to spray-on 8 asbestos fireproofing products? 9 MR. REPPERT: Objection. That question misstates 10 the paragraph you just read -- it mis-paraphrases is, 11 because you say "spray-on asbestos-containing products." 12 Actually it's clear as a bell on its face, it refers to 13 spray fiber products, not all spray-on asbestos-containing 14 products. 15 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 16 Q. You may answer the question. 17 A. Restate the question. 18 Q. Did you understand in June of 1969 that as part 19 of your job as district manager, you were to explain to 20 the architect bad practice, sloppy work, medical dangers 21 with asbestos, poor quality materials that coincided with 22 the use of spray asbestos fireproofing materials? ALOERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. r ww WASHINGTON. D.C. 20001 1202) 828-0300 142 1 MR. REPPERT: By "spray asbestos fireproofing," 2 that question, I take it, means spray fiber fireproofing. 3 Correct? 4 MR. BOUCHER: It does not include cementitious 5 material. 6 MR. REPPERT: Thank you. 7 THE WITNESS: My understanding was that we were 8 to put out the deficiencies in the other products in an 9 effort to get them unspecified. 10 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 11 Q. Including the deficiencies that are listed in the 12 last paragraph of the first page of Exhibit 1181. 13 Correct? 14 A. I don't ever remember dealing with the medical 15 dangers of asbestos. 16 Q. Let me now hand you a one-page letter and 17 distribution list dated March 13, 1970 from Thomas Egan to 16 Distribution List. It will be marked as Exhibit 1182. 19 (The document referred to 20 was marked Exhibit 1182 for 21 identification.) 22 Have you had an opportunity to review Exhibit ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. ' wr, ouiurs-rriw nr ?oooi 12091 626-0300 14 1 1182? 2 A. I have. 3 Q. Have you ever seen Exhibit 1182 prior to today? 4 A. I don't recall it. 5 Q. Do you recall having any conversations with 6 anyone from W. R. Grace with respect to the subject matter 7 discussed in Exhibit 1182? 8 A. I don't have a specific recollection. 9 Q. Do you have any recollection of being told, as 10 set out in the last paragraph of Exhibit 1182, to go back 11 to fundamentals and sell the pluses of Mono-Kote? 12 A. I don't recall this specific direction. We 13 always sold the pluses of it. 14 Q. Let me hand you what we will have marked as 15 Exhibit 1183. It's a one-page letter from Thomas F. Egan 16 to Distribution List dated May 14, 1970, and a copy of the 17 distribution list attached to it. 18 (The document referred to 19 was marked Exhibit 83 for 20 identification.) 21 Have you had an opportunity to review Exhibit 22 1183? ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. c CT ww WASHINGTON. DC 20001 12021 828-8300 144 1 A. I have. 2 Q. Have you seen Exhibit 1183 prior to today? 3 A. I don't recall it. 4 Q. Do you recall discussing the subject matter that 5 is contained within Exhibit 1183 with anyone at Grace 6 prior to today? 7 A. I don't have a specific recollection. 8 Q. But a general recollection? 9 A. Other than that U.S. Mineral had developed a new 10 product. 11 Q. Did you have any discussions with anyone about 12 how the effect of the new product -- what kind of an 13 effect the new product would have upon Mono-Kote? The 14 sales of Mono-Kote? 15 A. I don't recall such a discussion. 16 Q. Do you recall having any discussions with anyone 17 at Grace about the fact that the new product by Cafco -- 18 by U.S. Mineral Company, was an asbestos-free product, and 19 it would have a negative effect upon the sale of Mono-Kote 20 III? 21 A. I don't recall that discussion. 22 Q. Let me hand you a one-page letter from Thomas ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 20 F ST N.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20001 12021 828-9300 14 1 Egan to Distribution List dated May 20, 1970, which will 2 be marked as Exhibit 1184. 3 (The document referred to 4 was marked Exhibit 1184 for 5 identification.) 6 Have you had a opportunity to review Exhibit 7 1184? 8 A. I have. 9 Q. Do you recall receiving a copy of Exhibit 1184 10 prior to today? 11 A. I do not. 12 Q. The first paragraph indicates that "Cafco Type D 13 C/F has gotten equivalency from U.L. on most of their 14 floor assemblies, beams and columns." Did you have any 15 understanding in May of 1970 that Cafco had gotten the UL 16 equivalency? 17 A. I don't recall that. 18 Q. The second paragraph indicates -- there's a 19 portion of a sentence that says, "I strongly urge that you 20 start selling strong specs to control in-place density." 21 Do you see that? 22 A. I see that. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 20 P ST NW WASHINGTON, DC. 20001 1202) 028-0300 1 Q. Do you have any understanding as to why Mr. Egan 2 made that comment in this letter? 3 A. I think it was a problem that Cafco had. 4 Q. In other words, it was a sales technique that 5 could be used to convince architects to spec Mono-Kote 6 over the asbestos-free Cafco product. Correct? 7 A. Against all Cafco products. 8 Q. Correct? Is that "Yes"? 9 A. Yes. All Cafco products. 10 Q. The next paragraph, the last paragraph, says, 11 'This is not street knowledge, so please don't you be 12 guilty in spreading it. Let the" -- and then the next 13 sentence -- "Let the architect or other find out for 14 himself but stress the fact that with or without asbestos, 15 fibers are a poor application without strict density 16 control by spec or better codes." Do you see that? 17 A. I see it. 18 Q. What was your understanding in May of 1970 about 19 what Mr. Egan meant by "don't you be guilty of spreading 20 it"? 21 A. That we're not the ones who spread the 22 information that they have a new product. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. TM C ST N.W WASHINGTON. DC. 20001 1202) 628-9300 14 1 Q. So don't let the -- don't you be the ones to tell 2 the architects or others who would spec the products that 3 there's an asbestos-free product out there by Cafco. 4 Right? l> MR. REPPERT: Objection. The document speaks for 6 itself. 7 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 8 9 Q. Was that your understanding? 10 A. It doesn't say so. 11 Q. Was it your understanding? 12 A. I did not have an understanding back then. 13 Q. You didn't have an understanding one way or the 14 other in 1970 whether you were to inform architects that 15 there was an asbestos-free product put out by Cafco? 16 A. I don't recall what my understanding was in 1970. 17 That's what I see the document saying. 18 Q. Does the document refresh your recollection? 19 A. No. 20 Q. This is Exhibit 1185, an April 17, 1970 letter 21 from Mr. Egan to Distribution List with an attached 22 article titled "Controlling Construction Pollution," and a ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 20 e ST. NW. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20001 (202) 628-9300 i4o 1 distribution list attached to it. 2 (The document referred to 3 was marked Exhibit 1185 for 4 identification.) 5 Have you had an opportunity to review Exhibit 6 1185? 7 A. I have. e Q. Have you seen a copy of Exhibit 1185 prior to 9 today? 10 A. Yeah, I think I have. 11 Q. When was the last time you saw Exhibit 1185? 12 A. I don't have any idea. 13 Q. Have you reviewed Exhibit 1185 during the course 14 of any of your depositions taken prior to today? 15 A. I don't recall it. 16 Q. The second paragraph of Exhibit 1185, first page, 17 the last sentence reads: "For the present, please sell 18 the inherent advantages of a cementitious product." It's 19 the second paragraph, that sentence [indicating]. 20 A. All right. 21 Q. Do you see that? 22 A. Uh-huh. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 20 F ST.. N.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20001 1202) 828-0300 14 1 Q. What was your understanding of what was meant by 2 that sentence? 3 A. The -- several advantages of a cementitious 4 product was that it didn't spray stuff all over the 5 atmosphere. 6 Q. The sentence is prefaced with "For the present." 7 Is it your understanding that the reason for that preface 8 is the fact that Mono-Kote -- that Grace was in the 9 process of developing an asbestos-free substitute for 10 Mono-Kote III? 11 A. I don't know what all he would have meant by that 12 phrase. 13 Q. What is it you understood by that phrase? 14 MR. REPPERT: Objection. He just testified he 15 didn't know. 16 THE WITNESS: I don't know what all he would have 17 meant by that phrase. 18 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 19 Q. You didn't have any understanding one way or the 20 other? 21 A. No. 22 MR. REPPERT: Objection. Asked and answered. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 20 F ST.. N.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20001 (202) 828-0300 1 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 2 Q. The last paragraph indicates, "This article, 3 having been written by Mr. Rosen, would be an ideal piece 4 to distribute or at least use as a point of reference with 5 a LI architects and engineering firms." Do you see that? 6 A. I see that. 7 Q. Did you use the article that was attached as a 8 point of reference with architects and engineering firms? 9 A. Not that I recall. 10 Q. Did you undarstand that one of the purposes for 11 obtaining a copy of the article which is attached to 12 Exhibit 1185 was so that it could be used with architects 13 and engineering firms? 14 A. That's what he said. 15 Q. And it could be used in such a way as to sell the 16 distinction or advantages of Mono-Kote III, which is a 17 cementitious product, over the sprayed-on asbestos 18 fireproofing products? Is that correct? 19 A. As I read the article, it's referring to the 20 sprayed asbestos products. 21 Q. And the article could be used as a means of 22 promoting the sale of Mono-Kote III as an alternative to ^ e err ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. MC. WASHINGTON DC. 70001 12021 828-8300 151 1 the sprayed fiber products. Right? That was the intent? 2 MR. REPPERT: Objection. The question asked was 3 what Mr. Egan's intent was. This witness can't answer 4 that. 5 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 6 Q. Is that what your understanding is? 7 A. That's what it says. The cover letter would 8 suggest it. 9 Q. We have marked as Exhibit 1186 a one-page letter 10 from Mr. Egan to Distribution List dated June 25, 1970. 11 (The document"referred to 12 was marked Exhibit 1186 for 13 identification.) 14 Have you reviewed Exhibit 1186? 15 A. I do. I have. 14 Q. Do you recall receiving a copy of Exhibit 1186 17 prior to today? 18 A. I don't recall it. 19 Q. The first sentence says, "The heat from the 20 asbestos problem is radiating in many directions." Do you 21 see that? 22 A. I see that. AIDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. c ?T KJW WASHINGTON DC 20001 1202) 628-0300 1 Q. Do you have any understanding of what Mr. Egan 2 meant by that phrase? 3 A. Vo. 4 Q. Did you have any discussions with anyone at Grace 5 about the subject matter that is outlined in Exhibit 1186? 6 A. I don't recall it. 7 Q. Let me hand you what we'll have marked as Exhibit 8 1187, which is a one-page letter from Thomas Egan dated 9 August 20, 1970, to Distribution List. 10 (The document referred to 11 was marked Exhibit 1187 for 12 identification.) 13 Have you had an opportunity to review Exhibit 14 1187? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Have you seen Exhibit 1187 prior to today? 17 A. I don't recall it. 18 Q. The first paragraph indicates that there is 19 attached a program prepared by Ralph Bragg which is a 20 status report on research efforts outlined at the meeting 21 in Cambridge on July 28th and 29th. Do you have any 22 understanding of what meeting that's referring to? ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 20 * ST nw. Washington, d.c. 20001 12021 028-9300 15 1 A. NO. 2 Q. Were you regularly updated on the research and 3 development program for asbestos-free Mono-Kote? 4 A. Not that I know of. 5 Q. The third paragraph begins: "The research work 6 is involved in the most emotional and controversial area 7 of construction pollution." Do you see that? 8 A. I see that. 9 Q. Do you have any understanding of what is meant by 10 that phrase? 11 A. Only the contents of this letter. 12 Q. You don't have an independent recollection? 13 A. No, I don't. 14 Q. The next paragraph after that, the last portion 15 of the sentence reads: "[T]he health hazard of asbestos 16 will require the ban on loose asbestos particles to the 17 atmosphere, and probably within one year." Do you see 18 that? 19 A. Yeah, I see it. 20 Q. Do you have a recollection of having any 21 discussions with anyone from W. R. Grace about the 22 probability as of August of 1970 that there would be a ban ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 20 F ST.. N.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20001 (202) 628-0300 1 on loose asbestos particles? 2 A. I don't recall that. 3 Q. The next paragraph indicates that, "Already we 4 have lost a major project in Philadelphia; and I'm sure 5 others may follow across the country." Do you see that? 6 A. You have a better copy than I do. 7 Q. Do you have any recollection of discussing with 8 anyone at Grace the loss of a major project in 9 Philadelphia? 10 A. Not that I recall. 11 Q. The next sentence says, "The asbestos-free 12 product will get the order." Do you have any recollection 13 of discussing in 1970 the fact that asbestos-free products 14 would begin to get the orders for asbestos fireproofing? 15 A. Not that I remember. 16 Q. Isn't it true that as of August of 1970 you 17 understood that the reason why there was a need to get an 18 asbestos-free substitute for Mono-Kote III was that the 19 asbestos-free product would get the order in the 20 marketplace? 21 A. No. 22 Q. The next paragraph begins with: "Knowing this, I ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. c e- MW WASHINGTON. D.C. 20001 (202) 628-0300 15 1 again want to emphasize the importance of the 'Long range' 2 development program discussed in our July meeting." Do 3 you see that? 4 A. I see that. 5 Q. Do you have any recollection of what the long 6 range development program, as of August of 1970, was, for 7 Mono-Kote III? 8 A. I don't recall that. 9 Q. The last sentence in that paragraph reads, "The 10 market belongs to the firm that provides a new 'pollution11 free' spray cementitious product. Did you understand that 12 as of August, 1970, W. R. Grace was attempting to develop 13 a pollution-free spray cementitious product? 14 MR. REPPERT: Objection. 15 THE WITNESS: I think that's what this says. 16 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 17 Q. Was that your understanding? 18 A. No. I don't know when they were doing what. 19 Q. By 1970 were youaware that Mono-KoteIII was 20 being included within the term "spray fireproofing"? 21 A. By whom? 22 Q. By industry. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 20 F ST. N.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20001 1202) 028-0300 15< 1 MR. REPPERT: Objection. No foundation. 2 THE WITNESS: I considered Mono-Kote III to be 3 spray fireproofing. 4 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 5 Q. You did? 6 A. I did. 7 Q. Let me hand you what we'll have marked as Exhibit 8 1188, which is a two-page letter to William V. Culver 9 dated March 23, 1971, from Wesley D. Snowden, Manager, 10 Environmental Services, Valentine, Fisher & Tomlinson, 11 with a one-page attachment. 12 (The document referred to 13 was marked Exhibit 1188 for 14 identification.) 15 Have you had an opportunity to review Exhibit 16 1188? 17 A. I have. 18 Q. Do you recall receiving a copy of Exhibit 1188 19 prior to today? 20 A. No, I don't. 21 Q. Do you recall discussing the subject matter of 22 Exhibit 1188 with anyone at W. R. Grace? ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. c NW WASHINGTON DC. 20001 (202) 626-8300 157 1 A. I don't recall that discussion. 2 Q. Do you recall participating in any efforts to 3 present information to the legislature of the State of 4 Washington with respect to asbestos? 5 A. No, I don't. 6 Q. The attachment to Exhibit 1188 is a memo from you 7 to the Committee on Business and Professions submitted on 8 behalf of ZONOLITE Division of W. R. Grace dated March 22, 9 1971. Do you see that? 10 A. I see that. 11 Q. Do you recall having a copy of Exhibit -- the 12 attachment to Exhibit 1188, having that sent to the 13 Committee on Business and Professions? 14 A. I don't recall that. 15 Q. Do you recall participating in any way with 16 anyone at W. R. Grace an attempt to have language that was 17 being considered by the Committee on Business and 18 Professions with reference to House Bill No. 927 amended? 19 A. I have no recollection of this occurrence. Q. Let me hand you a copy of a two-page letter dated April 1, 1971 to Mr. Gene Gillison, G-i-l-l-i-s-o-n, Seattle Chamber of Commerce, Seattle, Washington, ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. ......... nr .now B2S-R300 1 "Reference: House Bill 927" from William V. Culver. 2 We'll have it marked as Exhibit 1189. 3 (The document referred to 4 was marked Exhibit 1189 for 5 identification.) 6 Have you had an opportunity to review Exhibit 7 1189? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. 1. 10 A. Have you seen Exhibit 1189 prior to today? Yes. 11 Q. When is the last time you saw Exhibit 1189? 12 A. Yesterday. 13 Q. Did you have discussions with anyone about 14 Exhibit 1189? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Were any attorneys on behalf of W. R. Grace 17 present during any of those discussions? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. Other than discussions that you had 20 yesterday about Exhibit 1189, had you had any discussions 21 with anyone else, where Grace attorneys were not present, 22 about Exhibit 1189, that you can recall? ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. c ST NW WASHINGTON. O.C. 20001 1202) 928-8300 159 1 A. I don't recall. 2 Q. Do you recall sending a copy of Exhibit 1189 to 3 Mr. Killion? 4 A. I don't recall it. 5 Q. Do you recall talking to anyone at W. R. Grace 6 about the substance of what is referred to in Exhibit 7 1189? 8 A. I don't recall that discussion. 9 Q. Let me hand you a one-page to C. H. Wendel from 10 Culver dated May 10, 1971, and ask that it be marktid 11 Exhibit 1190. ------ 12 (The document referred to 13 was marked Exhibit 1190 for 14 identification.) 15 Have you had an opportunity to review Exhibit 16 1190? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Is that your signature that appears on 1190? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Is that a signature of a secretary that would 21 sign on your behalf? 22 A. I don't know who did it. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 20 F ST.. N.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20001 (2021 628-0300 160 1 Q. Have you seen Exhibit 1190 prior to today? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. When is the last time you saw Exhibit 1190? 4 A. Yesterday. 5 Q. Were attorneys for W. R. Grace present at the 6 time that you saw 1190? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Other than yesterday, did you have any 9 discussions with anyone concerning the contents of Exhibit 10 1190, other than discussions you may have had yesterday, 11 with individuals who were present from W. R. Grace? 12 A. Not that I recall. 13 Q. Do you recall sending Exhibit 1190 to Mr. Wendel? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Do you recall making a request of Mr. Wendel to 16 hire a person by the name of Wes Snowden? 17 A. This reminds me that, yes, we had an offer -- an 18 offer to Wes. 19 Q. Did you hire Wes? 20 A. I think we paid him $50.00. 21 Q. What did you mean by the phrase "would defend us 22 adequately if a discussion comes up regarding asbestos"? ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 20 F ST., N.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20001 12021 828-0300 16 1 A. I think he knew the difference between us and the 2 other stuff. 3 Q. Did you have discussions with him to make sure 4 that he understood the difference? 5 A. He knew the difference without any discussion. 6 Q. How do you know? 7 A. Because that was his business. 8 Q. What was his business at that time? 9 A. He was a consulting engineer. 10 Q. From where? 11 A. Seattle. 12 Q. Was he affiliated with any firm at that time? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What was the name of the firm? 15 A. Valentine, Fisher & Tomlinson. 16 Q. What was the purpose behind hiring Mr. Snowden as 17 a consultant? 18 A. To my recollection, he was going to go to a 19 conference, and he wanted some help to get there. 20 Q. Do you know of Mr. Snowden being instrumental in 21 having both the Chamber of Commerce and the Mechanical 22 Engineers Association support the amendment on asbestos ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 16 1 which you proposed to the State Legislature? 2 A. I do not. 3 Q. Did you ever have any discussions with your 4 brother concerning potential health hazards associated 5 with exposure to asbestos? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. When is the first discussion that you ever had 8 with your brother concerning potential health hazards 9 associated with exposure to asbestos? 10 A. I do not know. 11 Q. Was it in and around 1971? 12 A. I do not know. 13 Q. Was it prior to the time that he EPA banned the 14 use of spray-on asbestos-containing fireproofing products? 15 A. I don't know. 16 Q. Was your brother involved in occupational studies 17 with respect to asbestos at that period of time? 18 A. I don't know. 19 Q. What was your brother's occupation in 1972? 20 A. He was a doctor. 21 Q. Doctor of what? 22 A. Medicine. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. NC. >ui nnemMnrnN OC 20001 12021 628-A300 16 1 Q. What kind of medicine? 2 A. Environmental medicine. 3 Q. Was he affiliated as an associate professor at 4 the University of California, Irvine, Medical Center? 5 A. Was he? 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. At that time? e Q. Yes. 9 A. I don't know. 10 Q. Was he ever? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And you don't recall whether or not he was 13 involved in occupational asbestos studies with the 14 University of Irvine at any point in time? 15 A. At any point in time? 16 Q. Right. 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Was he? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. When was he first involved in those types of 21 studies? 22 A. I don't know. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. mu' nr <2021 028-0300 1 Q. What is his name? 2 A. Dwight. 3 Q. Dwight Culver? 4 A. Uh-huh. 5 Q. Did you have any discussions with your brother 6 about any potential health hazard associated with Mono7 Kote III? 8 MR. REPPERT: There's been no testimony there was 9 any such potential health hazards associated with Mono10 Kote III. 11 THE WITNESS: I don't recall any"discussion. 12 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 13 Q. Did you ever discuss with your brother the fact 14 that Mono-Kote III contained asbestos? 15 A. I don't recall that either. 16 Q. Did your brother ever provide you with any 17 literature concerning potential health hazards associated 18 with exposure to asbestos? 19 A. I don't recall. 20 Q. Did you ever make any requests of Mr. Pickthall 21 at any point in time for any asbestos fiber count reports 22 that he was involved with? ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. DC 90001 (202* 628-0300 J.O 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Do you recall when you made those requests of 3 him? 4 A. No. 5 Q. What was your understanding of Mr. Culver's 6 responsibility in 1971 at W. R. Grace? 7 A. Pickthall, you mean? 8 Q. Pickthall. Yeah. What was your understanding of 9 Mr. Pickthall's responsibilities at W. R. Grace in 1971? 10 A. He was my counterpart in the Bay Area. 11 Q. Did you understand that certain people within the 12 building trade were associating Mono-Kote III with spray 13 asbestos fireproofing products in terms of potential 14 health hazards associated with its use? 15 MR. REPPERT: Objection. Assumes facts not in 16 evidence. No foundation. 17 THE WITNESS: Would you restate the question? 18 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 19 Q. Did you have an understanding in 1970 that people 20 within the buildings trade or building profession were 21 associating Mono-Kote III with spray asbestos fireproofing 22 products in terms of potential health hazards associated ALDERSON REPORTNQ COMPANY. INC. 20 F ST.. N.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20001 (202) 828-8300 loo 1 with its use? 2 MR. REPPERT: Objection. No foundation. 3 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of that. 4 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 5 Q. Let me hand you what we'll have marked as Exhibit 6 1191. It is a one-page document dated, it appears, 7 December 16, 1971 from Mr. Culver to Tom Egan. 8 (The document referred to 9 was marked Exhibit 1191 for 10 identification.) 11 Have you had an opportunity to review Exhibit 12 1191? 13 A. Uh-huh. 14 Q. Do you recall sending a copy of Exhibit 1191 to 15 Mr. Egan? 16 A. I do not. 17 Q. Do you have any reason -- do you have any 18 understanding as to why you would send a copy of Exhibit 19 1191 to Mr. Egan in 1970? 20 A. Other than what the document says, I don't know 21 why. 22 Q. The last sentence of the documents says, ''It ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 20 F ST.. N.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20001 1202) 628*0300 16 1 would be nice if Mono-Kote could get a clean bill of 2 health as compared to fuzz, with or without asbestos." Do 3 you see that? 4 A. I see that. 5 Q. What do you mean by the term "fuzz"? 6 A. That's the other stuff. 7 Q. That would be spray asbestos fireproofing? e (The witness shakes head.) 9 Is that a "Yes"? 10 A. That's the only accepted term for it. Yes. 11 Q. What did you mean by the term, "Tt would be nice 12 if Mono-Kote could get a clean bill of health as compared 13 to fuzz, with or without asbestos"? 14 A. It's another study -- well -- 15 Q. Doesn't it refresh your recollection that as of 16 1970, you were of the opinion that Mono-Kote III was being 17 lumped in as "fuzz" asbestos-containing fireproofing 18 products? 19 A. It would be nice if they -- the study, whatever 20 it was, could show the distinction. 21 Q. And it would be nice because at that time Mono22 Kote was being lumped in with the fuzz fireproofing ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 20 F ST.. N.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20001 1202) 828-0300 product. Right? A. Follows Q. Pardon me? A. I don't think that follows. Q. Well, isn't that true? Having reviewed Exhibit 1191, doesn't that refresh your recollection that MonoKote III was being compared to or lumped with fuzz asbestos-containing fireproofing product? A. Not by anybody who understood the differences. Q. Were there people responsible for public health in the Northwest region who didn't understand the distinction? MR. REPPERT: Objection. No foundation. BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) Q. That you were aware of? A. No. Q. Didn't you receive correspondence from Mr. Egan and from Mr. Wendel indicating to you not to assume that local public health officials understand the distinction between fuzz fireproofing product and Mono-Kote III? A. I don't recall that association with public health officials. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. V"|l 'OMIMATON n.C 20001 (2021 628-9300 169 1 MR. BOUCHER: This will be what will be marked as 2 Exhibit 1192. It's a one-page document dated December 17, 3 197C from William V. Culver to C. H. Wendel in L.A. 4 (The document referred to 5 was marked Exhibit 1192 for 6 identification.) 7 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 8 Q. Have you had an opportunity to review Exhibit 9 1192? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Have you seen Exhibit 1192 prior"to today? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. When was the last time you saw Exhibit 1192? 14 A. Yesterday. 15 Q. Did you have any discussions yesterday with 16 anyone about Exhibit 1192? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Were attorneys on behalf of W. R. Grace present 19 during any of those discussions? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Other than discussions that you had yesterday 22 about 1192, have you had any discussions with anyone else ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. c <5-r ww WASHINGTON DC. 20001 (202) 628-0300 17 1 about Exhibit 1192? 2 A. Not that I'm aware of. 3 Q. Do you recall sending a copy of Exhibit 1192 to 4 Mr. Wendel? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Do you recall having any discussions with Mr. 7 Wendel about the subject matter of what is contained in 8 Exhibit 1192? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Do you have any recollection of what is meant by 11 the last sentence in the first paragraph, "I think with 12 low air pressures and good housekeeping on the job we 13 might even be able to function with a lower TLV than the" 14 -- it looks like "present 5." 15 A. Only what it says there. 16 Q. In the second paragraph, the next to the last 17 sentence reads, "If that could be done, it would make it 18 more difficult for the sprayed fiber people to compete 19 with MK-4 even." Do you see that? 20 A. I see it. 21 Q. Does that refresh your recollection at all as to 22 when MK-4 was first available? ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 171 1 A. No. 2 Q. Does it refresh your recollection that MK-4 was 3 available prior to December of 1971? 4 A. I don't think it says that. 5 MR. BOUCHER: I'll have this marked as Exhibit 6 1193. It's a one-page document dated January 4, 1972 to 7 W. K. Rogers, Regional Manager, Eastern Region. It's from 8 William V. Culver. 9 (The document referred to 10 was marked Exhibit 1193 for 11 identification.) 12 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 13 Q. Have you had an opportunity to review Exhibit 14 1193? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Have you seen Exhibit 1193 prior to today? 17 A. I don't recall seeing it. but I remember the job, 18 vaguely 19 Q. Do you recall sending a copy of Exhibit 1193 to 20 Mr. Rogers? 21 A. No, not specifically. 22 Q. The fourth paragraph of Exhibit 1193 says, " Is ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. i l IA' \r * nr nnnoi f?0?l fl??-0f500 17 1 MK-3 still acceptable in that market, or is it necessary 2 to go to MK-4?" Do you see that? 3 A. I see that. 4 Q. Do you have any recollection as to why you wanted 5 to know whether MK-3 was still acceptable in the Detroit 6 market? 7 A. Since the architect was in the Seattle area, if 8 the MK-3 was not acceptable, then we'd get MK-4 specified 9 in that market. 10 Q. As of January, 1972, was it your understanding 11 that the reason why MK-3 might not be acceptable in the 12 Detroit market was that it contained asbestos? 13 A. I don't know why it wouldn't have been 14 acceptable. 15 Q. Do you know why you would ask whether it was 16 still acceptable? 17 A. Only in the case that it was not acceptable. 18 Q. Not acceptable for what reason? 19 A. For whatever reason they decided it wasn't 20 acceptable. 21 Q. Do you have any understanding as to why MK-3 22 would not be acceptable, but MK-4 would be acceptable, ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. * (>UI f\ r?or>\ 020-Q3OO 173 1 other than the fact that MK-3 had asbestos in it? 2 A. Only that the jurisdiction said, or whoever said, 3 they didn't want MK-3. 4 Q. Because of the asbestos in it. 5 A. For whatever reason they decided. 6 Q. For whatever reason they decided they didn't want 7 asbestos-containing fireproofing products. Is that what 8 you mean? 9 A. They would have had to explain why they didn't 10 want it. 11 Q. So as of January, 1972, if I understand your 12 testimony correctly then, you had an understanding that 13 some jurisdictions did not permit the use of MK-3, and 14 that they had various reasons for not permitting the use, 15 not limited to the fact that MK-3 contained asbestos. Is 16 that correct? 17 A. I'm not saying that. I don't know why they 18 didn't want it, other than that they didn't accept MK-3. 19 Q. Then it was your understanding that markets that 20 didn't accept MK-3 did accept MK-4. Right? 21 A. I don't know that. 22 Q. So you don't have any understanding as to why you ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. r *r ww WASHINGTON DC. 20001 12021 628-9300 1 1 put that in this letter? 2 A. If he wanted MK-4 specified, we would specify it. 3 If he wanted MK-3 specified, we would specify that, too. 4 Q. The next sentence says, "We have managed to hang 5 on to MK-3." What did you mean by that? 6 A. I mean that we were specifying MK-3. 7 Q. Well, what did you mean by "hang on to"? e A. Still specifying MK-3. 9 Q. Well, is there something -- some reason why you 10 wouldn't be able to continue to hang on to MK-3 at that 11 point in time? 12 A. We were able to. 13 Q. Was there any anticipation that you wouldn't be 14 able to hand on to MK-3 at that point in time? 15 A. I had no anticipation that we wouldn't. 16 Q. Then why did you say that "We have managed to 17 hang on to MK-3? 18 A. Because that's why we were -- what we were 19 specifying. 20 Q. The truth is, the reason why you put in "We have 21 managed to hang on to MK-3 is that MK-3 contained 22 asbestos, and there was some anticipation that MK-3 AIDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 20 F ST. N.W.. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20001 1202) 028-0300 175 1 wouldn't be allowed in certain jurisdictions because of 2 the fact that it contained asbestos. Isn't that true? 3 MR. REPPERT: Objection. Argumentative. 4 THE WITNESS: I don't know that that's a valid 5 argument. 6 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 7 Q. The same sentence goes on, "(A]nd will be writing 8 T.L.V. specifications when the use of asbestos in MK-3 is 9 questioned." What did you mean by that? 10 A. A threshold limit value -- T.L.V. -- quantifies 11 what was then acceptable limits for use of asbestos in any 12 product. 13 Q. Is T.L.V. specifications something that you 14 understood you could write? 15 A. We could influence the specification to include a 16 threshold limit value. 17 Q. And in 1972 were there instances where MK-3 was 18 questioned as a result of the fact that it contained 19 asbestos? 20 A. I don't recall any. 21 Q. Do you have any recollection as to why you added 22 that portion to the last sentence? ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. r o" ii vt> u/*euiMn^AM rv r> 1*>* *** 17 < 1 A. I don't have a specific recollection of why. 2 Q. What about a general recollection? 3 A. I don't have a specific job where I would have 4 written a T.L.V. that I recall. 5 MR. BOUCHER: We'll take a break. 6 (Brief recess.) 7 MR. BOUCHER: I'd like to have this marked as 8 Exhibit 1194, a two-page document dated March 27, 1972, to 9 Mr. R. B. Moran, President, Texas Vermiculite Company, 10 from William V. Culver. 11 (The document referred to 12 was marked Exhibit 1194 for 13 identification.) 14 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 15 Q. have you had an opportunity to review Exhibit 16 1194? 17 A. I have. 18 Q. Have you ever see Exhibit 1194 prior to today? 19 A. I kind of remember it from a long time ago. 20 Q. Is that your signature that appears on the second 21 page? 22 A. Nope. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. Kiw i*A<5HiWf5TON DC 20001 12021 628-9300 17 1 Q. Is that your handwriting that appears on the top 2 of the first page? 3 A. No. 4 Q. In the third to the last paragraph on the first 5 page it says, "We are still using MK-3 locally and don't 6 anticipate any problem of maintaining this approval. We 7 would just as soon not have any reference made to MK-4." 8 Do you see that? 9 A. I see that. 10 Q. Why did you say you would just as soon not have 11 any reference made to MK-4? 12 A. We were using MK-3 locally. 13 Q. Why wouldn't you want a reference to MK-4? 14 A. I saw no reason to have it mentioned.` 15 Q. Why not? 16 A. We weren't using it locally. MK-3 was fine. 17 Q. MK-4 did not contain asbestos. Correct? 18 A. That was my understanding. 19 Q. Didn't you feel, as of March, 1972, that it was 20 prudent to offer an asbestos-free alternative to MK-3 to 21 the public? 22 A. No. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. on r ct w w WASHINGTON. D C. 20001 (2021 628-0300 17 1 Q. Is the fact that MK-4 was an asbestos-free 2 alternative to MK-3 the reason why you didn't want any 3 reference made to it locally? 4 A. Say tha; one more time? 5 MR. REPPERT: He's already answered the question 6 as to why he didn't want reference to it locally. 7 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 8 Q. Isn't it true that the reason why you didn't want 9 local reference made to MK-4 is that it was an asbestos10 free alternative to MK-3, and you didn't want that issue 11 raised in this area? 12 A. No. 13 Q. If Grace was producing a product that was a 14 fireproofing product, wasn't it one of your jobs to 15 attempt to sell as much of that product as you could? 16 A. I think my job was to sell our products that best 17 fitted the needs of the marketplace. 18 Q. Wasn't one of the needs of the marketplace in 19 1972 an asbestos-free alternative to asbestos-containing 20 fireproofing products? 21 A. Not that I was aware of. 22 Q. Well, you recall receiving prior to March of 1972 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 179 1 letters from Mr. Egan indicating that the company that 2 puts the first asbestos-free fireproofing product on the 3 market will be the company that gets the market itself? 4 MR. REPPERT: Objection. Contrary to his prior 5 testimony as to the recollection of receiving those 6 documents. 7 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 8 Q. You'd received those, hadn't you? 9 A. I didn't recall receiving those. I've seen them 10 today. 11 Q. 3o you just felt that there was no real need to 12 let anybody up here know about MK-4, so let's not mention 13 it, huh? 14 MR. REPPERT: Objection. That's argumentative. 15 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 16 Q. Is that what you felt in March of 1972'* 17 A. No. Mono-Kote III we were using locally, and why 18 confuse the marketplace? 19 Q. How would the use of MK-4 confuse the 20 marketplace? 21 A. MK-4 was not introduced here. 22 Q. So in March of 1972 it was one of your ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. NC. ..u. eutKjivrnw DC. 20001 (2021 628-9300 1 responsibilities as a district manager for W. R. Grace to 2 sell as much Mono-Kote III as you possibly could. Right? 3 A. It was my responsibility to sell as much of the 4 Grace products as I could. 5 Q. Including the asbestos-containing Mono-Kote III 6 product. Right? 7 A. Including Mono-Kote III. 6 Q. And you attempted to do that to the best of your 9 ability, and that is sell as much asbestos-containing 10 Mono-Kote III as you could in 1972, didn't you? 11 MR. REPPERT: Objection. Asked and answered. 12 MR. BOUCHER: I asked him if that was his job, 13 and now I'm asking if he attempted to do that. 14 MR. REPPERT: I think you've asked the same thing 15 about five times. 16 THE WITNESS: I attempted to sell as much Mono17 Kote III as I could. 18 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 19 Q. And you attempted to sell as much Mono-Kote III 20 product as you possibly could, despite the fact that there 21 was an asbestos-free Mono-Kote IV product available? 22 MR. REPPERT: I'm sorry, you've done this four ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 181 1 times. He's answered it four or five times. You're 2 trying to put words in his mouth. He's answered the 3 question. Move on to something else. 4 BY MR. BOUCIIER: (Resuming) 5 Q. Isn't that correct? 6 A. I attempted to sell as much Mono-Kote III as I 7 could. 6 Q. Let me hand you what we have marked as Exhibit 9 1195, which is a one-page letter to George Bryant, Gary 10 Poindexter, and Bob Randall from William V. Culver dated 11 August 21, 1972, with a two-page attachment. 12 (The document referred to 13 was marked Exhibit 1195 for 14 identification.) 15 Do you need to review Exhibit 1195? 16 A. Yes. Or 1194. 17 Q. 1194? 18 A. That's what I have. 19 (Document proffered to the witness.) 20 1195. Thank you. 21 Q. Have you had an opportunity to review Exhibit 22 1195? ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. W r .<5T *JW wa.CH'NftTON DC. 50001 f?0?l A58-0300 182 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Have you seen Exhibit 1195 prior to today? 3 A. I don't recall it. 4 Q. Do you recall seeing a copy of the attachment to 5 1195 prior to today? 6 A. Not really. 7 Q. Do you recall talking with anyone at Grace about 8 the substance of what is discussed in the attachment to 9 Exhibit 1195? 10 A. I don't have a specific recollection of that 11 discussion. 12 Q. The first sentence in Exhibit 1195 says, "The 13 attached sounds much easier to live with than indications 14 we have had in the past of what might transpire." Do you 15 see that? 16 A. I see that. 17 Q. Do you have an understanding of what you meant by 18 that phrase, or sentence? 19 A. No. Except that -- no, I don't. 20 Q. The last sentence in the first paragraph to the 21 attachment to Exhibit 1195 says, "Accordingly, our best 22 estimate for the discontinued production of MK-3 is around ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 20 F ST.. N.W.. WASHINGTON. DC. 20001 (2021 828-0300 183 1 January 1, 1973. Do you see that? 2 A. I see that. 3 Q. Here you still in charge of, or responsible for, 4 the production plants in Portland and Auburn with respect 5 to the production of MK-3 in August of 1972, to the best 6 of your recollection? 7 A. I don't recall the date that I ceased having 8 responsibi1ity. 9 Q. There's some handwriting in the right -- I mean, 10 excuse me, the left-hand upper portion of the page next to 11 the names. Is that your handwriting? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Was it your understanding in August of '72 that 14 there would be a discontinuation of the production of MK-3 15 around January, 1973, as a result of EPA regulations? 16 A. I only understand what it says here. 17 Q. The letter also discusses a waiver procedure. Do 18 you see that? 19 A. I see that. 20 Q. Does that refresh your recollection of the 21 existence of a waiver procedure? 22 A. I only know what it says here. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. y* c sr nw WASHINGTON. DC. 20001 12021 628-8300 184 1 Q. So it doesn't refresh your recollection? 2 A. No. 3 Q. The next to the last paragraph of Exhibit 1195, 4 the attachment to Exhibit 1195, says, "The basis for such 5 a request should be the need for additional time to bring 6 the product into compliance. It would also be useful to 7 indicate that this time is needed to use up most of the 8 existing inventory and to run through existing contracts. 9 Do you see that? 10 A. Yep, I see that. 11 Q. Was it your understanding in 1972 that part of 12 your responsibilities was to continue to sell MK-3 as much 13 as you possibly could until the EPA banned the product? 14 A. I understood my responsibilities, to sell as much 15 Mono-Kote III as I could until it was no longer allowed. 16 Q. Was it your understanding that one of your 17 responsibilities was to keep as much inventory of Mono18 Kote III as you possibly could up until the time of the 19 EPA ban? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Wasn't it true that it was your understanding 22 that W. R. Grace was attempting to stockpile as much MK-3 ** r ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. mw nr ?nr01 62S-G300 '.85 t as it possibly could prior to the ban, knowing that there 2 was a ninety-day window period in which that stockpile 3 could be used? 4 A. No. 5 Q. There was an understanding in August of 1972 that 6 the EPA was going to require the discontinuation of 7 production of Mono-Kote III around January 1, 1973. Why 8 didn't you stop producing MK-3 in August of 1972, prior to 9 the promulgation of the regulations? 10 MR. REPPERT: Objection. No foundation. 11 THE WITNESS: I think the letter says, "according 12 to our best estimate." This is nothing but an estimate. 13 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 14 Q. Wasn't it your understanding that one of the 15 reasons why the EPA was going to ban the use of spray-on 16 asbestos fireproofing products, including the use of 17 Mono-Kote III, was that there was a potential health 18 hazard to those individuals who used Mono-Kote III? 19 MR. REPPERT: Objection. No foundation 20 whatsoever for that. 21 THE WITNESS: I have no knowledge of that. 22 MR. BOUCHER: So you had no understanding at all ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 20 F ST.. N.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20001 (202) 628-9300 186 1 as to why the EPA was going to ban the use of Mono-Kote V 2 III? 3 MR. REPPERT: Objection. You asked that at some 4 length earlier in the deposition EPA's action, and what he 5 understood the reasons were for that. And he answered all 6 those questions to the best of his ability. You're going 7 over old ground. It's getting to the end of the day. 8 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 9 Q. Is that correct? 10 A. Restate your question. 11 Q. In 1972 you had no understanding that one of the 12 reasons why the EPA was going to ban the use of Mono-Kote 13 III was the fact that it contained asbestos. Is that 14 correct? 15 A. No. 16 Q. No, that's not correct? 17 A. No, that's not correct. 18 Q. Okay. And what was your understanding at that 1? time? 20 MR. REPPERT: Objection. Asked and answered. 21 THE WITNESS: My understanding of the ban of the 22 EPA was to ban all materials that contained more than one ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 1 percent asbestos. 2 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 3 Q. Because of the potential health hazard associated 4 with the use of those materials. Right? 5 A. No. 6 MR. REPPERT: Objection. 7 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 8 Q. You had absolutely no understanding of why? 9 A. They banned it because the spraying of more than 10 one percent asbestos is what the ban was. 11 Q. Let me hand you what we'll have marked Exhibit 12 1196. It is a May 24, 1973 letter to "Gentlemen," from 13 William V. Culver. 14 (The document referred to 15 was marked Exhibit 1196 for 16 identification.) 17 Have you had an opportunity to review Exhibit 18 1196? 19 A. Yes, I have. 20 Q. Have you seen Exhibit 1196 prior to today? 21 A. I don't recall it. Not specifically. 22 Q. The first paragraph of Exhibit 1196 indicates, ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 20 F ST.. N.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20001 (202) 828-8300 188 1 "In accordance with the bulletin dated April 17, 1973, 2 regarding the EPA 'National Emissions Standards for 3 Hazardous Air Pollutants', all stocks of MK-3 should be 4 used prior to July 4, 1973." Do you see that? 5 A. I see that. 6 Q. Having reviewed Exhibit 1196, does it refresh 7 your recollection that the reason why the EPA banned the 8 use of Mono-Kote III was that it contained hazardous air 9 pollutants, namely asbestos? 10 MR. REPPERT: Objection. 11 THE WITNESS: No, that it contained more than one 12 percent asbestos. 13 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 14 Q. And that asbestos in more than one percent was a 15 hazardous air pollutant. 16 MR. REPPERT: Objection. 17 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 18 Q. Was that your understanding? 19 MR. REPPERT: Objection. No foundation. That's 20 completely off base. 21 You may attempt to answer. 22 THE WITNESS: I may? ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 20 F ST.. N.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C 20001 (202) 828-S300 189 1 MR. REPPERT: You may if you can. 2 There's no foundation in the record that the 3 title "hazardous air pollutants" applies to Mono-Kote. 4 And you may answer the question. 5 THE WITNESS: The ban was on spraying any 6 materials containing in excess of one percent asbestos. 7 And I don't know what level of asbestos was hazardous. It BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 9 Q. Okay. The next paragraph says, "Please arrange 10 to have any warehouse stocks shipped to one of your 11 customers in time for use of the material prior to the 12 above date." Do you see that? 13 A. I see that. 14 Q. Why did you want to get stocks of MK-3 out to the 15 customers prior to the July 4, 1973 cutoff date? 16 MR. REPPERT: Objection. It misstates the -- 17 mis-paraphrases the sentence. It says, "[I]n time for use 18 cf the material prior to the above date." 19 THE WITNESS: And it goes on to say that we will 20 be unable to accept any MK-3 returned for credit. So it 21 is acceptable to use it up until that date. After that 22 date, it's not acceptable to use it. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 2* r e- WW WASHINGTON DC 20001 f202l 628-0300 190 1 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 2 Q. Didn't you feel that there was something immoral 3 about selling off stocks of MK-3 products when they were 4 banned by the EPA? 5 MR. REPPERT: Objection. That's a -- 6 MR. BOUCHER: And as hazardous materials? 7 MR. REPPERT: Objection. The question is 8 factually erroneous, and there's no foundation. 9 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 10 Q. You may answer the question. 11 MR. REPPERT: There's no foundation for the 12 question. 13 THE WITNESS: There was no evidence whatsoever 14 given to us that the use of MK-3 was hazardous. 15 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 16 Q. Well, wasn't the fact that the EPA was banning 17 its use evidence that it's hazardous, to you? 18 A. No. And if I had felt it was hazardous, I 19 wouldn't have done it. 20 Q. What is your present business address, sir? 21 A. P.0. Box A, Auburn, Washington. 22 Q. What is the street? ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 20 F ST., N.W.. WASHINGTON, O.C. 20001 (2021 828-9300 191 1 A. 102 C Street South West. 2 Q. In Auburn? 3 A. Auburn. 4 Q. What is your present home address? 5 A. 141 Parfitt Way, Winslow. 6 Q. Do you have any plans for being out of the 7 country in February of 1989? 6 A. No. 9 MR. REPPERT: Isn't California out of the to country? 11 BY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 12 Q. Do you have any present intention to be in Los 13 Angeles, California during the trial on this matter? 14 A. Between when? 15 Q. In Los Angeles, California during the trial of 16 this case. 17 A. I'm available whenever W. R. Grace wants me. 18 Q. Has anyone from W. R. Grace indicated to you that 19 they intend to call you as a witness during the trial of 20 this matter? 21 MR. REPPERT: To the extent that answering that 22 requires you to disclose any attorney/client ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. c ww W4emwftTON DC 20001 <20?' 628-9300 192 1 communication, you are instructed not to answer. 2 THE WITNESS: I'm not going to answer. 3 MR. BOUCHER: Okay. You have answered. 4 Mr. Culver, I have no further questions for you 5 at this time. Thank you very much. 6 MR. HENDERSON: I have no questions. 7 MR. REPPERT: Mr. Culver, I have a couple of 8 questions. 9 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT W. R. GRACE 10 BY MR. REPPERT: 11 Q. Earlier in the deposition you testified about 12 MK-3 cracking. What is your understanding of what 13 occasions led to cracking in MK-3? What occasioned the 14 cracking of MK-3? 15 MR. BOUCHER: Objection. Calls for speculation. 16 THE WITNESS: The application of fireproofing 17 requires some significant expertise, and the cracking 18 which we experienced was by one applicator, principally, 19 who I believe applied it too thick at a time, and too much 20 water. 21 BY MR. REPPERT: (Resuming) 22 Q. Did Grace provide any instructions to applicators ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 193 1 of MK-3? 2 A. There have always been printed application 3 instructions available and distributed to our applicators. 4 Q. Do you know of any cracking problems with MK-3 5 where the product was properly applied? 6 A. I'm not aware of any where -- properly applied. 7 Q. What inventory capacity was there at Grace plants 8 in Portland and Spokane for MK-3? 9 A. I would estimate that the tctal capacity of 10 inventory -- warehouse capacity of both plants was in the 11 order of four or five days of shipment. We had no more 12 capacity than that, nor did we hire any outside storage or 13 warehousing. Nor did we have any significant inventories 14 among our customers. 15 Q. I direct your attention to Exhibit 1191. You may 16 recall that before Plaintiffs' counsel showed you that he 17 actually ripped off the attachment so you wouldn't have a 18 chance to see it. The first sentence says, "Attached is 19 some correspondence between Wes Snowden, the author of the 20 report 'Evaluation for Presence of Asbestos Particles in 21 an Office Building Ventilation System' which I sent you on 22 December 11." Do you have any knowledge as to what that ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 20 F ST., N.W.. WASHINGTON. O.C. 20001 (202) 628-9300 194 1 report was? 2 MR. BOUCHER: I would object to the editorial 3 comments of counsel, the unprofessional comments of 4 counsel, the self-serving comments of counsel, which 5 provided an introduction to that question. I would move 6 to strike the comments of counsel from the record, and 7 also object to the question as being leading, to be 8 calling for speculation, and having no foundation. It 9 assumes facts not in evidence. 10 BY MR. REPPERT: (Resuming) 11 Q. You may answer. 12 A. Wes Snowden worked for Valentine, Fisher & 13 Tomlinson. And for reasons best known by him and his 14 firm, they conducted a sampling of the return air plenum 15 contents on a building called Plaza 600. And the report 16 that's referenced here indicated that there was no 17 asbestos that they could find in any of the return air 18 plenum or filters in there. 19 Q. And what product was in the building? 20 A. That was Mono-Kote III. 21 MR. REPPERT: No further questions. 22 MR. BOUCHER: Move to strike the witness' ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 20 F ST.. N.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20001 1202) 628-9300 195 1 testimony on the last question as being speculative and 2 having no foundation. 3 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS 4 EY MR. BOUCHER: (Resuming) 5 Q. Mr. Culver, during the time that you provided 6 written information to applicators on the use and 7 application of Mono-Kote III did you also provide them 8 with any warnings of the dangers associated with the use 9 of Mono-Kote III from the fact that it contained asbestos? 10 MR. REPPERT: Objection. There's no foundation 11 that there were any dangers associated with the use of 12 Mono-Kote III. On the contrary, there is no such evidence 13 of record. 14 THE WITNESS: I'm unaware of any. 15 // 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 20 F ST. N.W WASHINGTON. DC 20001 (202) 828-9300 1 MR. BOUCHER: Thank you, sir. No further 2 questions. 3 (Thereupon, at 5:05 p.m., the taking of the 4 instant deposition ceased.) 5 6 7 Signature of the Witness 8 SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN to before me this day of 9 , 1988. 10 11 12 My Commission expires 13 NOTARY PUBLIC 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 20 F ST.. N.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20001 (202) 828-8300 197 1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 2 STATE OF WASHINGTON ) ss.: 3 County of King ) 4 I, Allan M. Johnson, the officer before whom 5 the foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify 6 that the witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing 7 deposition was duly sworn by me; that the testimony of e said witness was taken by Allan M. Johnson, Stenomask 9 Reporter, and thereafter reduced to typewriting under my 10 direction; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor 11 employed by any of the parties to the action in which 12 this deposition was taken, and further that I am not a 13 relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed 14 by the parties thereto, nor financially or otherwise 15 interested in the outcome of the action. 16 17 , (?Z'f 18 Notary Public in and for the State 19 of Washington, County of King 20 My Commission expires March 15, 1991. 21 22 20 F ST.. N.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20001 (202) 828-8300 F3LE CO Chicago 4. Illinois September 19, 1961 C384 Vo tho Members of Plaster Committee A. W. Oambros, Chairman W. V. Culver 0. L. Larson J. 6. Lya11, Jr. C. A. Pratt 0. L. Prouty Re: Minutes of August 14. 1961 Meeting Gentlemen: I am attaching copy of the minutes of your last meeting. .If you have changes to suggest to them, please advise. The following persons' attention is especially called to the Items noted opposite their names: 0. J. Boone A. W. Dambros C T. Gr inn 0. L. Larson E. L. Perrine Item 13 Item A Items 1(d) and 12 Items 1(e), 2(a)(c), 5(b) and 12 Items 1(b), 3, 5(b) and 12 Sincerely. Executive Secretary ERM:ak Enc. P.S. Note to KOC members cc: Jtorket Development Board of Directors J. H. Bishop C. T. Griirni ' ,/ See item 14. Co/tsey 0000 4 _L I'U 12? 7&123 MINUTES.OF VESTING PLASTER CCWITTES VERMICULITE INSTITUTE AuousT^lj^JSjfiJ^ ,* . A moating of the Plaster Committee was hald August 14, 1961 at the Union League Club, Chicago, III. The following members were present: A, W. Dambros, Chairman W. V. Culver C. A. Pratt 0. L. Prouty Also present were Messrs. R. J..Bragg, C. T. Grimm, 0. L. Larson, E* L. Perr'ine, 0.' J. Boone and E.R. Murphy, Secretary. The minutes of the meeting of the Committee, held at Chandler, Airiz. on March 22, 1961,were reviewed and approved as written. (l) Review of Fire Test Procram - Tvoo-M< Fireproofing (a) Four Floor and Beam Tests The Committee reviewed the results obtained on the first three floor tests. They also evaluated the result on the fourth floor test to be made some time this fall. A 3-hour rating is anticipated. This floor consists of RK units with 5/8" of Type M<-3 material following the contour end 5/4" of material across the top of the flutes. It. Culver explained that in his area there is a specific need for a 2-hour rated floor of the RK type. He asked that consideration be given to making another fire test on an RK floor to obtain this rating. The Committee agreed to give this request further thought after we have the resul* of the fourth test. The Committee requested the Secretary to send a letter of commendation to the Zonolite Research Laboratory and to Don Larson of V.l. for the work done by them in formulating, decking, batching and testing Type M<-3 mat erial. The Ccoraittee was particularly impressed with the speed with which this was done in order to meet our test schedule at UL, Inc., Chicago. (b) Test Reocrt on Th jrd Test The Secretary recomended that we do not have copies of the report on the third test made and, likewise, that the result of that test be not listed in the UL list. This floor construction was composed of a blend system with flutes filled and 3/4" of Type M<-3 below. The end-point was reached at 2 hours, 58 minutes, and only a 2-hour rating would be assigned to the floor. This would conflict with the 3-hour rating for a blend system floor with 7/8" of Type M<-l following the contour. The Secretary also edvised that this matter had been discussed by the ftCC and that they recommended to the Plaster Committee that no test report be issued. The Plaster Com mittee concurred. PLASTER MINUTES CS/U/51) -2- The drop-offs that hava bean occuring in fira fasts on the flat plate of bland system floors was discussed. The Institute office was asked to dis cuss this matter further with several manufacturers of steel decks, stress ing the need for a surface providing batter adhesion for fireproofing mat-, erial. The Zonolite Laboratory was siso asked to cheek this to see if . . they could make some recommendations to improve adhesion. <c) Equality of Type M<-l and M<-3 Consideration was given to the acceptance by building officials, fire in surance rating bureaus and others to the equality of Type kK-l and M<-3 f{reproofing materials, i.e., the results of fire tests with one material may be applied to the other. Two of the floor constructions (one on a blend system, and the other con sisting of RK units) were tested with Type M<-l. We are assuming that Type *K-3 will be permitted for the same fire ratings. This matter will be tested before the Research Cownittee of the International Conference of Building Officials in connection with our request for approval. If they are willing to accept the two materials on an equal basis, we wilt then have a batter idea of what to expect from other building official organisations. (d) Yield of Type VX-3 Several members of the Committee stated that they were not able to get the yield with Type MC-3 that other producers Indicated they were obtaining in their areas. The Committee requested M*. Grimm to make a survey of com panies producing Type M<-3 material to determine their yields and report to the Committee. ^ (e) UL Acceptance of New Peck Sections Mr. Larson reported that he had discussed with the Underwriters Laboratories their acceptance of steel decks with different cross sections, which have become available recently, for those used in fire tests, with, of course, the same fire ratings. UL advised him that H. H. Robertson had already requested equivalency for their new Type MG( and Section 21 units for those actually employed in their fire tests. In turn, the Underwriters requested H. H. Robertson Co. to make two new tests employing the new floor sections. One test is suggested with two flute units and one flat plate unit, alter nating, and the other, with a flute and a flat plate unit alternating. The Institute was requested to contact H. H. Robertson Co. and agree to supply KK-3 material for these new tests, if they are going to make then. Likewise, offer any data that we have that would be of assistance. (2) Oiscussion of New Fire Tests (a) Column Test with Type VK Fireproofing Prev ious to the meeting, the members had been canvassed to obtain their opinion as to .the advisability of making a fire test on a column protected PLASTER MINUTES (8/14/61) 3- wlth Type M(-3. foI lowing the contour f a column. Tft'majority had rplld In tii affirmative. Th Secretary advised that h had referred the result of the canvass to the IferkeT Development Ccamitte at their meeting in July and that they had approved the making of such a test, but had referred back to the Committee th question as to th proper thickness to employ for a 4-hour rating. . The Secretary also stated that on the recommendation of the kCC, the Board of Directors had made an appropriation of S2,000 for this purpose. It was the consensus of opinion of the Committee that we should attempt to obtain a 4-hour fire rating and that 2-1/2" of Type M< material be employed. (b) Metal Lath Ceiling with the New Acoustical Efaterial Otrect to Metal Lath f*-. Bragg discussed his report No. 575 covering the application of the new acoustical material direct to metal lath. He stated that while the experi ments run in the lab appear satisfactory, it should be understood that they used relatively small pieces of metal lath. He therefore suggested field trials of this combination of materials on full-sized ee?lings before reach ing a definite conclusion. Until more information is available on the practicality of thTs ceiling. It was decided that no fire test should be considered. (c) Concrete Slab-Joist Floor Protected with Type M< Chairman Oambros stated that on the West Coast a slab-joist concrete floor, for a 2-hour rating, has to have a slab 4-1/2" thick. He suggested the possiblity of obtaining a 2-hour rating with such a floor system with a 2-1/2" slab with 3/4" of Type MC applied to its underside (Type not to be applied to the joists). He presented cost figures (West Coast) to show a savings by the use of Type MC and a reduction in concrete slab thickness. It wes decided that representatives of the Institute and Zonolite Research Lab should contact Portland Cement Assn, to obtain their reaction to this idea. Also, that we explore the possiblity of a joint fire test, such a test to be made either at the Underwriters Laboratories or at the Portland Cement Assn.'s fire test laboratory. The Committee further recamnended that after we had a specific test to dis cuss, a recomnendation should be made to the Market Development Committee tor sufficient funds to pay for a fire test or our share of such a test on the construction noted. PLASTER MINUTES C8/U/6I) 3a. (d) Fire Tests on Steel Column Protected with. Metal Lath and Plaster Employing Coated Aggregate An application was made for another test on a column protected with a metal lath cage and vermicuiite plaster using coated aggregate. The Committee recommended that the coated aggregate employed be obtained from Dearborn, Mich. M*. Prouty agreed to provide the aggregate, check to see that its density is in the 6 lb. range and to provide a sample tor the Zonolite Lab to check screen analysis. (3) New Fireproofing Material The Chairman reminded the Committee that the VCC, at their meeting in Oecember I960, requested, in addition to Type M<-3 material, that there should be con tinued effort to try to develop, if possible, a better and more econo mical fireproofing material. C94<; js PIASTER-MINUTES (0/14/61) Mr. Perr in* stared that some consideration had baan given to another type fire proofing, but that no work had actually been done by the Laboratory. The ComMirtee requested Mr. Perrin# to re-activate work on this materiel. (A) Vermiculite Acoustical Tile - Fire-Rated Material At the present time, according to Mr. Oambros, the few companies having f irerated tiles are getting a premium for them which permits us to be competitive with Type MC. He pointed out, however, that as more tile companies obtain fire rated material, we will have serious competition. M*. Dambros recommended that the Industry begin research to determine whether a vermiculite tile can be pro duced that wilt be competitive. The Committee requested the Chairman to convey this information to the Zonolite Co. and urgently recotnnend investigation of the manufacture of a vermiculite tile capable of competing with the tiles mentioned. (5) Underwriters Laboratories, Inc. (a) Hew Specifications for Vermiculite Plaster Aqereoate The Secretary discussed the new specifications for our plaster aggregate. Issued by the Underwriters Laboratories, which were sent to all of our members, subscribing to re-examination service, for their approval. Reference was made to the Secretary's letter to Mr. Bono of Underwriters Laborator ies, dated July II, commenting on the new spec! f i cat ion and request ing certain changes to be nede. The Secretary also stated that he had had additional conversation with Mr. Zimmer of UL with respect to our recommend ations, and that he would discuss it further with Mr. Parks of OL. (b) Listino of. Density of Fireproofing Materials Mr. Larson reported on contacts made with UL regarding the reporting of inpiaca density of fireproofings tested by that organization. He stated that they agree with our suggestion that this should be done, but have not been able to divise a simple method of checking, particularly one that can be reproduced in the field. It was further reported that Zonolite Laboratory had loaned UL a penetrometer (used for checking concrete) to determine whether this could be used as a basis for penetration and density tests. The penetrometer was not satis factory, but the Zonolite Lab recently added a special disk to it,which they feit would make it suitable for the purpose, and have returned it to UL for another trial. (3)Mjnjmum Weicht Shown on Plaster Baos Mr. R. W. Sterrett wrote to Mr. Dambros on July 27, requesting the Committee's consideration of changing the minimm weight shown on 4 cu.ft.plaster bags from "Her Weight, 28 lbs." to "Net Weight, 2f lbs." The Committee concurred with this Change. Since the minirmm wwienr or ^ -- *---- ~ ^- - -- r ' - PLASTER MINUTES (8/U761) 3*aG 5- The Secretary was requested to advise all members of this change. (6) Acoustical -.Generic Trm for "ZonofcCoustlc`l The Secretary called attention to the need for a generic term for Zono-Coustic. He suggested that the Institute use the term, "Vermiculite Acoustic - Type 2." The Committee approved of this term. (7) ASA Standard Specifications for Gypsum Plastering The Secretary reported that a trial ballot had been taken by the Secretary of ASA Committee A42 on the controversial changes and additions recommended to this Standard, the main purpose being to determine whether some of the items could be resolved so that only the most controversial Items would have to be considered at the next meeting of the Committee. The voting was not conclusive. The Secretary referred to the possiblity of obtaining unanimity of opinion on several of these items of special interest to us at the next meeting of the ASA Committee. In view of this, he recommended that we withhold publication of our revised plastering specification. The Committee concurred with this recoemendat ion. M*. Bragg suggested that the following be added to the section on "Temperature and Ventilation," in our specifications, applying to areas of buildings lacking openings for natural ventilation: "This may be accomplished by circulating exterior air through the enclosed area and esdiausting It to the exterior under foreed draft." The Secretary advised that he would include appropriate provision for this in our revised specifications. (8) Bloc-Kote The Committee was Informed that the Market Development Committee had discussed this material at their meeting in July and felt that more field work should be done with it from which adequate specifications could be prepared. The Conv> mittee concurred with this suggestion. (9) Texture Finish Over Gvesum Wall beard Mr. Bragg discussed this product and indicated that they had revised the for mula to whiten it. Also, that samples of the new material had been sent to a number of areas for field testing. (10) Plastering Over Polystyrene F. Hyde & Co. had ealled attention to the fact that in-Eastern Canada vermicu lite plaster was being applied to this base, with a mesh reinforcing over it, with successful results. They stated that they had not recommended or pro mpted this oraetica. Thev reeuested the coin ion of the Committee as to *he*her 0`H S llil PUSTER MINUTES (8/14/61) 7- Mr. Larson distributed copies of the revised proposed specificat ions for vermiculite sprayed insulation to the Committee for review. The Chairmen asked the members to check the specif ications and submit comments by Sept.' f,` L96J. (13) Promotional Campaign - Plaster, Acoustical and Fireproof in-3 Products Mr. Boone submitted a letter to the Plaster Committee, dated Aug. 8, 1961, out lining a promotional campaign for these products, which had been discussed and approved by the K3C in July with the understanding that the details were to be approved by the Plaster Comnittee. He presented details, including adver tising, publicity and literature. He also stated that a sound-slide film on fireproofing, based on slides obtained by the Zonolite Co. and H. W. Steiff, may'be prepared. The program would extend from November 1961 through February 1962. The Committee concurred with the campaign as outlined and commended M*. Boone for his efforts. (14) 1962 Annual Meeting .Since it is probable that the Plaster Committee will not meet again during this fiscal year, the Committee gave consideration to the Plaster part of the annual meeting program, in addition to the usual.report of the Committee Chairman. As a result, the Committee recommended to the Market Development Ccrnnittee that a contest for salesman be established to determine the Best Idea in Setting *, Type M< Fireproofing In Competition. -. RM:ak Edward R--. Mjrphy Executive Secretary PLASTER MINUTES (8/U/fil) 6-. they should go on record as recommending this combination of materials. It aas the opinion of the Committee that the industry should not recommend the use of our plaster ever polystyrene, even with the sash reinforcing. Cl I) Quality Control Standards Several years ago, the Institute issued to its members a quality control stand ard for the production of acoustical plastic, which standard has been revised at least once. It was the consensus of opinion that this standard should be reviewed again to determine if additional changes should be made, and also that comparable quality control standards should be prepared for Type M< fireproof ing and for vermiculite sprayed insulation. (12) Vermiculite Soraved Insulation Mr. 6rimm discussed the contacts ha had had with Behlen Co., manufacturers of steel buildings, regarding the fireproofing of the ceilings of their buildings with vermiculite sprayed insulation. He stated that that company is going to make a full-scale test at the Underwriters Laboratories on a ceiling section protected :with our material to obtain a I-hour rating. Also, that Mr. Perrine Is conferring with representatives of the Behlen Co. with respect to the con struction of the test panel. In connection with wa11 construction, Mr. Grimm advised that Western Actuarial Bureau said that only the supports for walls (columns), had to be protected; also, that a 2-hour rating is required. Behlen Co. are not interested in such a test. It is felt that other steel bui Iding- manufacturers might be, such as Inland Steel Co., Stran-Steel, Butler, ate. The savings in fire insurance rates by having 2-hour fire-rated Mil supports ms discussed, ft-. Grimm ms asked to obtain detailed information from Western Actuarial Bureau on the actual savings for both the building and contents. This information is to be sent to members of the Plaster Committee, Market De velopment Committee and the Secretary. The Comnittee recommended that a fire test be made on a wall support (column) with vermieulite sprayed insulation. It ms further recommended that the cost of making such a test should be borne by the steel company involved and the vermiculite industry, or by our industry alone. The column to be used and the thickness of protection is to be determined by a special task group,consisting of a representative of the Institute, the ZcnoI ite Co. and the metal building manufacturer involved, after consultation wirh the Underwriters Laboratories and Western Actuarial Bureau. An opinion is to be obtained from the Underwriters as to whether they will grant the fire rating obtained on the column tested to other comparable columns. aka coot 313 / OAVIS MMO CAKE ADOKSS ZOnCCO CHICAGO, a. ZONOLITE DIVISION W. R. GRACE & CO. RESEARCH IABCRATC 1827 BENSON AVSNl. EVANSTON, IUlNO!S March 25, 1964 '3S4 Mr, W. \. Culver VERMICUL1TE NORTHWEST,'INC. 2107 N. 34^h St. Seattle 3, Vashington Dear Bill: Enclosed are three copies of Test Report Mo. 1072, "Wet Bulking & Light Reflectivity of 7EX3 Asbestos Fiber from California Zonolite Co." Very truly yours. ZONOLITE DIVISION W. R. GRACE fc CO. ELP:ej enc. cc: J. Huxley R. W. Sterrett J. A, Kelley A. MacArthur S. L. Perrjfne Manager Evanston Laboratory 0000 2 102774 ZONOLITE DIVISION W. R. GRACE & CO. RESEARCH LABORATORY III; Union ivlnul KtnirOn. ibimon flllnOl Otvil -0 JiTT BULKING fc LIGHT REFLECTIVITY OF 7EX3 ASBESTOS FIBSI FROM CALIFORNIA ZONOLITE CO. March 23, 1964 Test Report No. 1072 Laboratory Data Book No. SO, Page 5 tfork done by: \1. R. Payment tfork requested by if. V. .Culver, Vermiculite Northwest J. Huxley,'California Zonolite Purpose of Test: To determine the above two properties of 7oXJ asbestos liber. Abstract: Wet bulking value is acceptable, but light reflect ivity is one point below the acceptable .58 standard. It is entirely possible that the color of this fiber will not be detrimental in Mono-Kote, whereas it will affect the color of tfhite Acoustical Plastic. Procedure: Standard wet bulking (10 grams sample in 250 cc. distilled ^0, using 10 inversions and allowing mixture to stand 60 minutes). Value reported represents volume of the original 250 cc containing asbestos. Light reflectivity values were determined with a Model 610 Photovolt Reflectometer, using freen filter and glass slide over the sample. The green filter corrects the response of the meter to that of the human eye. Data: Sample 72X3 Producer Jefferson Lake Asbestos corp. Jet Bulk Value 216 Light Reflectivity .57 5penprtfill 1 u auhiiHttB.H 2. L. Perrine Manager Evanston Laboratory ZONOLITE DIVISION W. R. GRACE & CO. RESEARCH LABORATORY .1ST BULKING fc LIGHT REFLECTIVITY OF 7EJC3 ASBESTOS FIB31 FROM CALIFORNIA ZONOLITE CO. March 23, 1964 Test Report No. 1072 ' Laboratory Data Book No. 60, Page 5 ;/ork done by: W R* Payment !7ork requested by: V 5* .Y"*1?ulit# J. Huxley, California Zonolite Purpose cf Test: To determine the above two properties of 7&XJ asbestos liber Abstract: ( Wet bulking value is acceptable* but light reflect- lvity is one point below the Acceptable .58 standard. It is entirely possible that the colot o this fiber will not be > detrimental lh Mono-Kote; wbeteas it will affect the color of Jhite Acoustical Plastic; Procedure: Standard wet bulking (10 grams sample in 250 cc. distilled B2O, using 10 inversions and allowing mixture to stands 60 minutes). Value reported represents volume of the original 250 cc containing asbestos. Light reflectivity values were determined with a Model 610 Photo volt Reflectometer, using freen filter and glass slide over the sample. The green filter corrects the response of the meter to that of the human eye. Data: Sample Producer Jet Bulk Value Light Reflectivity 72X3 Jefferson Lake -Ashesfees Carp. 216 .57 Respectfully submitted. & ^ ~^L./ r > Approved: R. Payment 2. L. Perrine Manager Evanston Laboratory *' J :v* .tv'i'v To the Members of the tfarket Development Committee t 0. J. Boona W. V. Cu I var J. A. Kallay C. H. WandaI, Chairmen L. 6. McOlarmeld R. 8. Moran E. L. Parrlna H. W. Stalff Ra: Minutes. November 30-0scenbf/r I. 1964. Meeting Gentlemen: Marry Christmas. 1 am attaching copy of the ai nutas of your Nov. 30-Dec. I, 1964 mating. Will tha parsons motioned balow ptaasa rafar to tha pagas and I tarn shovn opposl+e fhalr nans, stnca furthar action Is required. (I) Market Dsvalopmnt Coeealttee and Board of Directors ^oa I. (ten 2. Annual Meeting Program. (2} Andy Wise - Paoa 2 - Meeting of Agricultural Ceeailttaa. (3) Roy Babb - Paoa 11. Item 7. (A) Qan (3) Las Barron - Pane 3. Itsei I; Paoa 6. Item 2; Paoa 5. Item 5: Paoa 9. Item 3: ^oe 12. Item 10: and ftoe -12. Jtam 12. C6) Joa Kal lay - Paoa 6. Items 9 and 10. (7) Cana Parrlna - Paoa 3. Item I; Paoa 6. Item 8; Pace A# tttl Hi?? Psos 10* If-- 2: Paoa 12. JLJ---9. Mppy New Year. r.-fktVc^ 0000 3 Edaard R. ferphy Executive Secretary RMsdc Beard of Directors Chairman of Coaailttees J. H. Bishop R. W. Starratt co MINUTES OF MEETING MARKET DEVELOPMENT COMMITTEE YEHMICUL1TE INSTITUTE November 30 - Dae--bar 1. 196* 77C2 A Mtfing of tho Msrfcot Development Committee was held at tha Union Lssgus Club,. Chicago, Illinois, on Novanbar 30 and Deceaber I, 1964. Tha following parsons wars prasant: C. H. Vandal, Chalraan . 0. J. Boon# V. V. Culver J. A. Kallay R. B. Moran H. V. Stalff Tha --bars of tha Board of DIrsetors wars also prasant, namely; Messrs. 0. J. Boons, V. V. Culvar, J. H. Greer, J. 6. Qrdway and H. K. Starratt. Also prasant wara Messrs. L. A. Barron, E. L. Perrlne and E. R. Murphy, Secretary. Tha minutes of tha last mating of tha Comittee, hald at tha Union League Club, Chicago, 1111 noIs, on Juno 1-2, 1964, wara approved as written. SEVERAL (1) Salas Management Seminar Tha Comittee was reminded that tha September, (964 Seminar had to be cancel lad because not enough people Indicated that they would attend It. Tha Secretary recosaiended that wa give more consideration to tha timing whan wa daelda to hold tha next moating, so that a nuefeer of parsons who might normal ly attend are not tied up with company program. Ha also stated that Prof. Clewett has proposed tha months of either February or March or. If these are not satisfactory, tha month of June, 1965. Tha Comittee agaad that a 1965 Seminar should be hald and that June would be tha beat tlm to hold It. Tha Secretary was therefore requested to contact Prof. Clewett to confirm tha tlm. Ho ms also directed to obtain copy of tha proposed outline of tha Seminar, containing tha subjects and subheadings that are to be covered, for review by tha Msrkot Development Comittee before It Is finalized. (2) Program for 1965 V.l. Annual Meeting The Secretary presented a draft of a proposed program for this meeting, which ms considered, and a number of changes node. It ms understood that the revised second draft of the program would be sent to the members of the Ifcrfcet Development Committee and the Board of Olractors for coamnt and finalizing. It ms also understood that copy of this second draft would be sent to the Chairmen of the mrlous Committees. 094207 M.O.C. MINUTES 770234 2 OGCEMBER 23, 1964 '**<** r , '*% t3) F. Hvde A Co.. Ltd. -- Insulaave Tests Th Comittee considered letter free M*. Charles Goyer of F, Hyde 4 Co., Lisited, dated Septenber 10, 1964, requesting that the Institute neks and pay for color!meter and wind-uplift tests on veraieullte-esphalt insulation at Factory HituaI Insurance Co., Harwood, Mss. Previous tests node by F. Hyde & Co., Ltd. at that laboratory were not successful Insofar as wind-up 11 ft was concerned. It was the consensus of opinion of the Cosaiittee that tests on this notorial fa! I In the sane category as other tests we*ve conducted In which infomation and results are particularly useful to one or a very few of our nonbers. In such cases, the Institute has agreed to pay a certain anount and the eenpany or companies Involved have agreed to pay the reminder. It was estinated that the total cost for these tests. Including mterlal, would be S 1,850. The Comittee therefore recownondod to the Board of Directors that V.l. pay not to exceed $1,000 of this anount If F. Hyde 4 Co., Ltd. is willing to pay the reminder. ___ AGRICULTURAL AND INOUSTRIAL Mr. Culver reed and discussed Chairmn Wise's report to the Cemlttee dated Nov- . enber 18. He eaphsslzed the benefits and inportanee to the Industry of bulk . handling of vemlcullte. Thera ms discussion on this natter; the Cornell nix, .* using 02 or M size mtertal; Spencer Chenical Co.'s usa of vemlcul Its In Arkan sas and Tennessee without the use of a polyethylene flln; and the use of seed encapsulated with vemlcul lte for growing lettuce at Salinas, Calif. ^ The Comittee noted that the Agricultural and Industrial Coanittee had not net To-date, and requested the Secretary to suggest to Mr. Wise that a nesting of the Comittee be held at Travelers Rest on April 22-23, 1965. The Comittee also re quested that the following subjects be subnitted to It. Wise for consideration at that meting: (1) Need to datemlne, tf possible, a heavier carrier to conpete with Atec ley on a might basis. (2) Liquid phase of camerclal, high analysis, high nitrogen fertilizer products. (a) More tests run to detemine definitely whether vemlcul lte Is an answer to this probleni (b) A mrfcet study to detemine the potential use if vemlcul lte Is found to be satisfactory. (3) Cornel' Mix (a) That tests be mde In various parts of the country and results reported at V.l. annual meting. Also, advise then of products enployed and nixing procedure. (b) In connection with (a). It ms felt that neMers of the Agricultural Comittee should be asked to get the product tried out in their areas. M.O.C. MINUTES 77C235 3 DECEMBER 23, 1964 (e) Investigate the usa of this mix by the horn gardeners as wot I is growers (for lawns and flewar beds}. (d) Confects wlfti Garden Clubs? It was recommeeded that Prof. Sheldrake of Cornell University be requested to appear on our program to discuss the Cornel I aix. Mr. John Hllkln of Zonollte Olv.-N. R. Grace 4 Co. appeared before the Coonlttee to recommend th* institute's participation In a radio publicity progran sponsored by the Netherlands Flower Bulb Institute, National Plant Food Institute, Clay Pot Manufacturers' Assn, and Lawn Mower Institute. According to the program, there will be one 5-mtnute show devoted to vemicul1te, as well as reference to vermlcullte In other parts of the broadcast, 300 radio stations are Involved at a cost of S2.50 per station, or a total of SI,250. The number of radio stations may exceed this number. It was the Opinion of the Conlttee that the Institute should participate to the extent of SI,230, and that the members of V.l. be asked to reimburse the Institute at S2.30 per station located In their areas. If a member Is not willing to do this the Institute will absorb the cost. The Committee requested the Board of Directors to approve an appropriation of S>,230 for this purpose. INSULATION COMMITTEE Chairman Upchurch's report dated November 16, 1964, was read and discussed by Mr. Harvey Stelff, the M.D.C. representedve on that Committee. M*. Stelff emphasized that the Committee had decided at their meeting on November II, 1964, to Include the toI tewing in their pert of the V.l. annual meeting program: report on the actual savings tn heating and alr-condltionlng In structures using electric heat, insulated with vermlcullte; presentations on this subject from persons representing *nrlous parts of the United States and Canada. The acceptance of monry fill by concrete block producers. Including a southern block manufacturer as guest speeker. Also, If possible, a guest speaker from an electrical power company located In Alabama or Georgia. Mr. Stelff also stated that the Insulation Committee recommended a number of ways In which to sustain and Increase the sale of veralculIts loose-fill Insulation over the year by working at the dealer level and using the re-tnsulatlon theme, The 3-cubic foot bog, and emphasizing sales to new markets - such as farm buildings, mushroom houses, existing Institutional and commercial buildings. Cl) Con&ictlvlty Tests on Loose-TIH and Masonry Fill - Density Ranee of Loose-FUl M". Barron reported on tests made at J. L. FI nek Laboratories and by Mr. Lander (Minneapolis) to determine the kind of results obtained from present accredited laboratories before deciding on making final tests at two, three or four labora tories that. It Is hoped, will provide a loner "k" factor for loose-fill than the 0.48 now In the Guide of A.S.H.R.A.E. This work has not been completed; the best results so far have been from FI nek. In the course of this discussion the question arose at to the density range of #2 vermlcullte loose-fill insulation available. At the present tine A.S.T.K. Specifi cation C3I6-63T Includes a density range of 4 to 6 lbs. per cu. ft. The Committee 094209 M.D.C. MIM/TES 77023S 4 OeCBGER 23, 1964 felt that 8 lb*, ns too high, and unanimously approved a new danaity rang* for vermiculIta loose-fill Insulation of 4 to 5 lbs. par cu. ft. for both 9\ and #2 material. It is undarstood that this ranga will ba employed tn caking tha tests, and that eventually *a will hava to hava tha A.S.T.M. spaeifloations, and any othar spaeifleetions giving tha wider ranga In density, corrected. New conduc tivity tests on venaieuilte masonry fill will ba node at independent laboretorles by ZenoIita Research Laboratory whan data Is obtained on tha kind of resulls that ean ba expected from such laboratories in connection with tha tests on loese-fi11 insulation. (2) Structural Clay P*oducts institute and national Concrete Itesonrv Assn. President Boone reported on tha presentation node on vermiculIts masonry fill at tha S.C.P.I. annual aaatlng at Hollywood, Fla. on November 17, 1964 by Mr. Barron and himself and on tha showing of our film, "it's Ail in the Wall". Favorable comments ware made by S.C.P.I. mambers and tha Structure! Clay Products Reseereh Foundation. Mr. Boone mntioned tha good relations existing between Mr. Barron and tha S.C.P.I. personnel. He also reported that a group of aen raprasanting S.C.P.I. had node a trip to European countries to Investigate tha use of aesonry In which they found masonry cavity walls insulated with waterproofed winaral wool. Information on their findings will ba prepared and available later. ( - It was tha opinion of tha Committee that tha waders of tha Institute should do ore promotional work with regional or district offices of S.C.P.I. and N.C.M.A. It was recalled that tha Institute and Zonolite Div. - W. R. Grace 4 Co. hava ^ forwarded to members lists of tha personnel and office locations of S.C.P.I. and N.C.M.A. regions and districts. Messrs. Boone and Barron were requested to pre pare a letter to sand V.l. mothers indicating the results of the Meeting with S.C.P.I. and again suggesting thar they work aere closely with the representatives of these two organisations. Tha Secretary called attention to the fact that N.C.M.A.*s Washington office has and are accepting articles from V.l. on jobs employing concrete aasenry units and veraicullta aasonry fill. (3) ttetlonal Electrical Ifenufacturers* Assn. The Secretary reported that we had been requested to participate in a program on the use of Insulation in electrically heated buildings at the 1966 annual meeting of N.E.M.A., along with representatives of othar Insulations. Accepting the invi tation, wa outlined to Dick Smith of N.E.M.A. what wa are attempting to do to get information on the cost of heating and/or air-conditioning electrically heated buildings Insulated with vermicullte and suggested this as the basis for our dis cussion. It was his opinion that this is mctly the Information thatr members would find of most Interest. Accordingly, whatever information Is available on this subject at V.I.'s annual meeting at Point Clear, Ala. In April, 1965, will be used, plus similar date obtained between that tlma and the 1966 N.E.M.A. meeting. The person to represent our Industry was purposely left open so that this could be decided at a later.dete. 094210 M.O.C. MINUTES -3- DECEMBER 23, 1964 (4) Edison Electric Institute The InstI tut* was requested to contact E.E.I. further to determine fha possIblllty of having an appropriate individual fron our Industry discuss veraicullte Insulations on oaa of their annual oeetlng progress. This will be Investigated. It was felt that E.E.I. would be just as Interested tn the type of Information which Is being prepared for the V.l. 1965 annual aeeting and for N.E.M.A. (5) Distribution of Institute Masonry FTII Film The Secretary reviewed the distribution of the Institute's film, "It's All In the Nall", through Sterling Movies U.S.A., Inc. He stated that the distribution during the first four months was less than anticipated, but that Sterling was sending out another sailing announcement as of December 1, 1964, to appro*irately 13,000 persons, advertising the fila and Its availability. This railing Is going to the following: Structural Clay Products Institute tosonry GuiIds N.E.M.A. American Public Power Assn. American Gas Assn. National Assn, of Home Building feson Con trad ora* Assn, of America ttot'l. Assn, of Building Owners 4 Mfrs. American Motel 4 Hotel Assn, (raster hosts? fetional Concrete Masonry Assn. Masonry Assns. National feral Electric Coop. Assn. ^ Building Contractors Heavy Contractors Schools of Architecture American Institute of Architects 3000 individual architects In Oalles, Milwaukee, New Orteens, Miami, St. Louis, Boston, Atlanta, New York City, Chicago, Detroit, Houston, Washing ton, San Frans1ico, Los Angeles. <) VermfculIte feeonrv Fill - U.9. Air Force Mr. Barron gave a progress report on the work being done with the Air Force to apeept our rasonry fill In connection with Air Fores construction. He said that with the help of E. R. Kraft of Zonolite Dlv. - W. R. Grace 4 Co.'s Washing ton office, we were able to locate two jobs In -the Washington area la which this material was being Installed and had a representative of the Air Force Inspect them. They wanted to do this before giving final consideration to Including masonry fill In their specifications. t?) Federal Specification for Veraicullte Loose-Fill and feaonrv Fill Insulations Mr. Barron reported that copy for these combined specifications Is being pripartdf but that the rain thing holding up finalizing It are the new conductivity factors which we hope to obtain on veraicullte loose-flit and on veraicullte rasanry till composed of either 01 or M materiel. These values mist be Included In the final specification. 094211 M.Q.C. MINUTES - 6- DECODER 23, J964 (8) Fire Ttit on Concrete Block Wall (Filled with Itesonrv Fill) The Comittee m Inform* by Mr. Borron that It was not poaslbla to gat an Intarpolatad flra rating for a concrato block wall with msonry fill froa althar tha National Board of Flra Undarwrftars or Undarwrltars' Laboratories, Inc. In fact, tha Iattar organization proposad that a flra fast ba aada on a wall conposad of eencrata block, half of which to ba unfilled and tha other half to ba filled with our mterlal. If such a test Is satisfactory, Undarwrltars' Laboratories Indicated they would than ba In a position to Issue a report Indicating tha addit ional fire resistance to ba obtained by filling block walls with vernicuI its msonry fill. This mtter was discussed, and since msonry fill Is Involved, It was decided that tha mtter should ba referred to Messrs. Upchureh and Perrlne of ZonolIts Div. tf. R. Graca & Co. for final decision. Accordingly, this subject ms permnently removed froa tha agenda of tha M.O.C. C9) Use of Itesonrv Fill In Exlstlno Walls Mr. Kail ay spoke of tha developmnt of equipment. Mounted on a truck, designed to blow msonry fill into existing mils. He said that this had been tried out and found to be satisfactory In mny eases, but not so in others. Ho further stated that work Is being done on the techniques of blowing such mterlal into mils, particularly with eoated M notarial, tt*. Kelley Indicated that If the proper equipmnt and blowing technique could be developed, that It ms Intended to estab lish applicators for doing this - perhaps contractors now applying Mineral wool In this Manner. ^ There ms an Interest In this application of msonry fill. it-. Kelley stated that he would Ilka to have It triad out by a nuaber of people within the Industry to see whether It works satisfactorily In their arms. (10) Sound Dmdenlno with Veralcullta The subject of sound dm boning or the reduction of sound transalsslon through partitions, floors, etc., ms discussed. The tests which the Institute mda at fie l gar and Hearn Laboratories on a gypsua ml I board partition and a concrete block mil ware reviewed. Mr. Perrlne indicated that they had not found a my to present the results of these tests which would be aseningful to the aaabers, since the reaction In sound transalsslon, particularly on the block mil, was low, accor ding to the standard test procedure. The Initial California contact had with tha National Cik Flooring Assn. CMemhls) with respect to the use of vereiculIta as a sound deadaner In floor construction ms reviewed, and the Ceaaittae ms informd that that association had not so far replied to correspondence ^n the subject. The Institute office Is following this up Mr. Kelley discussed this subject generally. Ha stated that ZonolIt# Olv. intended to investigate all possible uses for veralcullta in connection with the subject of sound dm den I ng or the reduction of sound transmission. 094212 M.O.C. MINUTES -7- 08CEMBER 23, 1964 PIASTER ANO FIREPROOFING Mr. Boon* reported that pi astar product salas ara up ovar a yaar *90 dua, prin cipally, to th* tncraasad usa of Typ* M( fIraproofing. Other piaster products are down slightly. Mr. Moran, Iferket Development Committee raprasantatlve on tha Plaster and Fire proofing Comitt**, read and raviawad Chaiman Oaabros' report dated November 20, 1964, which referred to tha fire test program conducted during tha fiscal year and that tha Comltte* Intends to have a mating tha early part of 1965. At that tlm, Mr. Oaabros Indicated, tha Comltta* would consider tasting different floor system than thosa already tasted. <1) Underwriters' Laboratories. Inc. (a) Maw Thicknesses and Fire Retinas for 5" Floors and RK Floors Tha Secretary discussed tha fult-scaJ* and sealI-seaIa tests that had bean mde In connection with this subject, and gave th* new thicknesses proposed for two and three hour ratings on th* floors mntionad, as follows: 3* BLEND FLOORS (ROBERTSON AND I HANO) Liteo 7/16" on flat plates 9/16" on sides A top of flutes Liteo 11/16" on flat platas 13/16" on sides and top of flutes ALL-FLAT R-ATE FLOORS 7/16" 11/16" ALL-FLUTED FLOORS 7/8" on bottom 7/8" on sides of flutes t" across top of flutes RK FLOORS 7/16" on bottom 7/16".n sides of fluted area 9/16" across top of fluted area 5/8" on bottom 5/8" on sides of fluted area 3/4" across top of fluted area (see R.4374-15) * Mo rating Is Included for a two hour ell-fluted floor because w* don't have either a full-scale or a small-scale test on a 3" all-fluted floor on which to aeke a determination. Th* three hour rating for an air-fluted floor is based on our test R.4374-12 (Design No. 52-3 Hr.) and Is at present Included In the Oeslgn Card mentioned (see Alt*r- net* 8). This test showed a good factor of safety for 3 hrs. (3:57) . .sc that It was felt to be "OK". 094213 M.D.C. MINUTES -8- 06CEWER 23, 1964 The Secretary Mid that ha ballavas that this Is tha first tlaa that U.L., Ine. has attempted to Interpolate valuas In this aannar (basad.on fuI I-sea Ie and sn11-sea la tasts) and tharafora no publicity can or should ba glvan to tha foragoing Information until tha tast raport (R.4374-18) has baan offic ially approved by tha FIra Council of U.L., Inc. It vas his opinion that tha raport would ba ready son tins after tha middle of January, assuring that it is passed by tha FIra Council. Stnca a two hour rating for an all-fluted floor Is not Included, because we don't have either a full-scale or a snalt-acala tast on a 71 a)I-flutad floor on which U.L., Inc, could rake a determination, Mr*. Perrins agreed to review tha two tasts that have baan made on 1-1/2" all-fluted floors In which two hour ratings ware obtained, to try to datormina. If possible, what thick ness of fireproofing might be used for a two hour rating with a 3" section. Ha stated that this might also require, and probably will, soma small-scale tasts on their furnace located at Travelers Rost when that furnace Is available (b) Three-Beam Tast - Temperature Limitation for Beams Tha status of tha three-beam tast was reviewed. In suwwmry, this test is being held in abeyance until U.L., Inc. aakes a decision on whether to establish a temperature limitation for beams. While they have been discussing temperature limitations of 1,200*F. average - l,400*F maximum, U.L., Inc. wilt probably net decide whether to apply a temperature limitation to beams (and If so, what temperatures) until after the meeting of A.S.T.M. Committee E-5 (Standard Fire Test) to be held In Cleveland mrly tn February. (2) California Zonollto Co. Fire Test - Ohio State University Mr. Wendel reported that they had made a three-beam tast Irrthe small-scale furnace at Ohio State University with beams protected with 1-1/4", 1-1/2", and 2-1/4" of Type MC fireproofing to determine the length of time required tor such beams to reach I,000"F average - I,200*F maximum, as required by the cities of San Fransisea and Los Angeles. The failure points were reached at 131 minutes, 181 minutes and 288 minutes, respectively. The tasts ware run long enough to also determine endpoints with temperature limit ations of 17200 r1 average and I,400*F maximum for the three fireproofing protection thicknesses mentioned. The end-points In this case were 148 minutes, 236 minutes and 351 minutes,, respectively. It. Wendel Mid that the city of San Fransisco had accepted 1-1/2" of Type WC for a three hour beam rating based on this .test. They hope to have an approval from the city of Los Angelas shortly. (3) TWo Hour Fire Rntlna The Secretory reported that In the series of fire tests which we have amde Theresas no opportunity to test a been protected with Type MC fireproofing for a two hour- rating,* since alther a four hour or a throe hour rating was required. Accordingly we requested U.L., Inc. to determine whether they could give us an ssryapolated gating for two hours on a beam. They have Investigated this matter and reported that they are unable to do so. 094214 M.O.C. MINUTES 770241 9 OC&eER 23, 1964 It vas the opinion of the Committee That thara Is suffielant ranson to make a tast to obtain such a rating. It mbs thara+ora raco--andad that this opinion ba brought to tha attantlon of tha Plastar and Fireproofing Committee, and also that thay ba requested to study tha floor construction to ba anployad to obtair a two hour baaa rating, and as aueh additional naadad data as nay ba obtainad In aaking ona fu11-sea Ia floor tast. In doing this. It mbs also suggastad that tha companies Mho hava raquastad a two hour baaa rating tall us (a), tha slza floor baeas that hava to bo protactad In thair araa; (b), the firarrasistanco raquirad of floors usad in compaction with two hour baeas (two hours or ona hour); and (c), tha slza and type of steal floors aost usad (1-1/2", 3", ate.). This Intonation Is to ba taken into account in arriving at tha coaponents of tha floor to ba tasted. (4) Density of Type W< - U.L.. Inc. Pas Ion Cards and List Tha Secretary rafarrad to conversations and correspondence with U.L., Inc. with respect to this subject. Ha further stated that U.L., Inc. is now in tha process of arriving at tha aanner In which density will be shown for our notarial, for other caaantltious products and for spraytd-fIber fI reprooftng. They will hava to decide this natter shortly, because tha 1963 Cards and list aust ba sent to tha printer around tha nlddia of Dacanbor. The Secretary Indicated that ha was keeping in touch with U.L., Inc. and, as natters developed, was checking with tha Plastar and Fireproof ing Comlttaa to sea whether tha aanner in which densities are listed Is satisfactory. (3) Cooperation with African Iron and Steal Institute - Fire tests at Chip State U. Mr. Barron advised that ha assisted In tha application of tha M( on the 12" baeas anployad In tha tast floors being constructed at Ghio State U. About 7/8" of Typo MC was applied to each bean for a two hour rating under a baaa tanperature I Ini tat I on of 1,200*F average - 1,400*F naxlnua. According to tha schedule, tests are to ba mde on December 29, January 3 and January 14. (6) V.I. Publication - "Comparison of Direct-to-Stael Fireproofing for Floor. Been end Coluwn Ratings It was decided that tha Institute should revise this publication to bring it up-to-date as soon as possible, but that distribution should ba Halted to aanbars of V.I. only, tn fact, tha Market Develop--nt Comlttaa raquastad that thara ba laprintad on tha front page of tha publication tha words, "For VernlcuITta Institute Members Only - Mot for Distribution". <7) HI. Publication - "VomlcuHte Flre-Roslstance Ratings- Tha Comlttaa decided that this publication should ba revised as soon as possible to Incorporate tha latest fire ratings for our Type MC veralculite protactad con structions, with tha understanding that tha distribution will ba Halted to building coda officials and fire insurance rating bureaus. Requests for cotv of this pub lication tren other sources are to ba referred to tha member company In which tha requests originate, so that thay can decide whether to provide copy of tha publi cation to tha party --king tha request. (NOTE: Tha action taken by tha M.O.C; on tha above publications Is due to their opinion that our competition Is making unfair use of them.) 094215 M.D.C. Ml MITES 77C242 10 06CER23, 1964 CONCRETE AMO ROOFINB The Chat ran requested M-. Moran to discuss tt*a training prograa which ha has baan conducting in Texas for hLs nawast vermiculite concrete roof deck applicators. I**. Moran explained that these applicators ara smaller fines In comparatively sms 11 cities, and that ha and other mabers of Texas Vamiculita Co. have baan Meeting with their applicators to review completely the specifications for various vermiculite concrete roof insulations and roof docks, equipment requirements, application and problems arising In connection with vermiculite concrete app11cation. He advised that ha has found this procedure the best way to inform these applicators and, as a result, their vermiculite concrete roof deck business has been stimulated. Cl) Vermiculite Concrete Oata Sheets Mr. Moran commented on Mr. Babb's report to the M.D.C. dated November 27, 1964, with respect to the revision of concrete dsta sheets. He said that he attended a moating at Little Rock, Ark. with Mr. Babb and a number of other men to discuss matters with respect to vermiculite concrete, including data sheets, but that to the best of his knowledge the discussion had to do with the data sheets being prepared for Zonolite 01v. - If. R. Grace A Co. He was not familiar with revisions to Vermiculite Institute data sheets. The Secratary stated that this was the first indication he had had that there was any intention to revise the Institute data sheets for distribution at the 1965 annual meeting of V.l. The Secretary also said that, based on the discussions at the last meeting of the Concrete and Roofing Committee, it was his understanding that no effort was to be made to change the Institute data sheets until the A.S.A? Standard for Vermiculite Concrete, which will become the Institute's long-form" specification, is available. This Standard any or any not be ready by the end of April, 1965. (2) Vermiculite Mix Design Chert - Slide Mile The M.O.C. was advised thet the Concrete Committee, at their lest meeting, had discussed revising the present mix design chart, and decided to put this In the form of~s *s!lda rule rathe than a chart* Also, the slide rules should be purchased by'the Institute and resold to makers Interested in having such rules for themselves and their applicators. It was recommended that we purchase 2,000 rules at a cost of approxamataly SI,500, and resell then as indicated at cost plus 15f for handling, smiling, etc. After discussion, the Committee agreed with this proposal, and recommended to the Board of Directors that Sr,500 be appropriated by the Board of Directors for this purpose. (3) V.l. Version - Film on Vermiculite Concrete The Committee was reminded that they had approved, on June 1*2, 1964, the making of a new film on vermiculite concrete. Since the cast of the film to V.i. was not known at that tine. It was decided that this Miter should be referred to the Committee later. Mr. Boone stated that the cost to V.l. would be between S4,000 and S5,000. The Committee therefore recommended to the Board of Directors that an appropriation for this purpose be mads, not to exceed S5.000. noi?ia M.D.C. MIMJTES II 0GCEM3ER 23, 1964 (4) Approved Verm?culife Roof Peck Applicator Program Hr. Babb recommended In his `otter of November 27, 1964 that the Institute eonsldsr changing this V.I. progrua to coinclda with tha Zonollta CarttfIcatlon Program. Tha assantlal dlffaranca is that Zonollta (a) rafars to tha word, "Cart!fixation"; (b) takas saaplas (cytlndars) on aach Job, which ara sant to tha Zonollta Research Laboratory for coaprasston strength tests and results ara re ported to their district office but not necessarily given to tha architect or owner of the building Involved; and (e) a certificate, signed by Zonollta Div. - If. R. Grace A Co. and their applicator Js given to tha architect or owner In si I eases. Tha Institute rafars to tha prograa as Indicated In tha above heading; taking saaplas of concrete froa jobs Is not a requlreaent, and a certificate signed by a asaber of V.l. and his applicator nay or aay not be given to an architect or owner, according to the policy of the aenbor coapany Involved. Mr. Babb's reconaendatlon was discussed in detail, and It was the consensus of opinion of the Coanittee that no change should be tade In the present V.l. program. (5) V.l. Participation - national Roof Deck Applicators' Maatino Mr. Babb also recoaaended to the M.O.C. that V.l. sponsor and pay for the Reception for the above aeeting on the evening of February 17, 1965, at New Orleans. The Coanrittee decided that this should not be done. C6) A.I .A. Manual on Built-Up Technology ^ The Secretary referred to correspondence froa the American Institute of Archi tects * specifically, to winutes of a seating sponsored by this organization and held'on August 25, 1964, at A.I .A. headquarters, Washington, 0. C. We were net- present at that aeeting, but representatives froa associations and coapanies rep resenting built-up roofing, roof deeks and roof Insulation were present. It is our understanding that as a result of the aeeting, A.I.A. will attempt to prepare such a annual with the assistance of approxIanteIy eighteen associations and cowpen i as Interested In publication and financing the work required. While we hove not received e direct request froa A.I.A. +o participate, we under stand that this will be forthcoming. It Is also jr understanding that the cast will be prorated.* on the basis of eighteen participants at S2,000 apiece. After discussion. It was the opinion of the Coanittee that If It Ts decided to prepare such a publication, that we should participate and spend not to exceed S2,000 for this purpose. The Market Development Coanittee therefore requested that the Board of Directors appropriate this amount at aoney. C7) List of'15-Veer Old (or Older) Vermlcullte Concrete Roof Deck Jobs The CoaWiIttee was Informed that at the August meet!ng of the Concrete Comm ittee In Evanston, that drta on such Jobs received froa aeabers was discussed, and that Chairman Babb hod decided to review the correspondence and data and decide whether we had sufficient and adequate data to aake up a worthwhile list. Because of Mr. Babb's illness since that tine, this work has not been coapletod. 094217 H.O.C. MINUTES 77C245 13 OBCOER 23, 1964 <14) A.S.A. A->22 (VamlculIts Concrete) Barron reported That tha revised draft of this preposad standard was being praparad and would ba sant to all Berbers of Com!ttaa A-122 shortly for Iattar ballet. It Is hoped that a favorable vote will ba obtained, and that tha Standard will ba available on or before tha tine of tha Institute's annual nesting In April. EFMsdc Edward R. Hirphy Executive Secretary 094218  nd-*ri. ... *.:v.lrc t'Jushcll. c rane mfuitrips L.-s Barron. v.I. . .-ran, C3L.::r;d;jc ** ~an;brus, i.. JAN *3 0 19:3 **alls a.;J Ceilings January 23, 19? Uar S.ui ; ."he February iasu-r nf -alls ar.d CuJ.lir.5a t i'^riaor^ aiaStcria9 livlustri ruS^c ar. arelclc vo ;.at/e IS re^ardin^ ^lasi fiber reia*eout fur yla irjdibfes.jcr:t*. Ibis ii-ahe be c.*;c server ts a -eaiden's grayer" fur 9tt3 1:'substitute ftr asriijsrs in ^u-iwcc. bi.*euise, it didn't a>:ear tu I'lniiar answer e_ tbi *. ,rsafes tber . robii--s. V-i- `r> ti i ..V. Culver - //' ' 'J: V11 i.,tV </'; / Col V<T 7H3 0000 4 092135 February 7, 195? Mr. S. W. Sterrett Zonellte Cl/. - W. R. Grace L Co. 62 Whltremors Avenue Cambridge, Massachusetts 021*0 Saar Sob: We ara Indebted to BUI Culver's watchful ayas for bringing our attantlon to an artlele that appeared In tha Fabruary lssua of WALLS ANO CEILINGS (formarly PLASTERING INDUSTRIES). For your convanlanco. Bob, I hava photocoplad this artlcla and attachad It for your review. It gats Into tha araa of usTng glass flbar as a reinforcement In plaster and concrete, and Bill suggests tha possibility of substitut ing glass fiber for asbestos In vermlcullte Type-MK. Additionally, Bob, I am wondering If the advent of regulated-set cements would not help In this particular direction. Possibly, regulated-set cement as a binder In some tyoe of vermIcut Its fI re proof I nq would be batter than gypsum. Of course, after you reed the artlele, you will note there can be an alkali reaction between portland cement and glass fibers but the article suggests that appropriate coatings could probably be found for the glass fibers. With the comments raised In some comers of the country about asbestos, I wonder If this does not have some merit. This Is fcr your Information, Sob. Sincerely, LAB:ms CC: Mr. W.V. Culver Mr. C.H. Wendel Mr. O.J. Boone Leslie A. Barron Executive Secretary 0000 G ' :;W' *I *\ TO: R. K. Burnham W. V. Culver J. H. Greer L. K. Irvine R. B. Moran Brooks Robinson C. R. Wendell FROM: T. Egan DATE: March 15, 1970 SUEJ: Request for Asbestos Content of Mcno-Kate by S.O.M. I was informed by Mike Moran that there was a letter from Skidmore, Owings and Merrill, New York, N.Y., requesting information on his cementitious fireproofing as to its asbestos content. Since this firm has such national prestige, I urge that if you receive this letter of request, please answer honestly and do not be evasive about the asbestos. The intent of these cosaents is not to tell you vhat to say but to provide some guideline, so that everyone replies with basically the same data. 1. The asbestos content in our U.L. formu lation is approximately 117. bv weight. This can change some cue to variance in aggregate weight and tolerances.on amounts as outlined in the procedures. A percentage by volume would be very misleading. 2. Please note chat being cementitious, this relatively small amount of asbestos is to a great degree locked in by the binder end aggregate. Also, when mixed with water, it is both pumped and sprayed wet which further entraps the asbestos and when dry and set, it remains that way in the cementitious material. Feel free to call or write me on any matter pertaining to requests for data or comparisons of materials as to asbestos content. TE:egr 0000 7 QUiff nw C\i. -103711 iM* i fe x. ZONO LITE VERMICU LITE-NORTH WEST. INC. BStD1*WrOfjKr*^G3lCE3 u* c::? :o... p C BOX a :Zl C ST REST SOUThv. ALBURN >vaS'*-'NGTON ? __. ja t _ * * `Wk.i v- ur * BrCti \ v -u: K'f Ao^r r/ir mtormanor ;i\tn htrt *ii; it hrt-u.. I; u beset O'- our iti: 4ii> .tin am ( baiiaxt it to ie true ana aseurett. Uteit 'tea an statements. 'from mentatsons or tutfrenont here.r m eonoreron our continent c- st.i r.ter. ofp.\ ;o ..V [oous turr-.ti A* u< H t assume no renonsibihts tor t-ie ust ut trtse sto.emerts. 'ten"-mr- Conors <* i:,ctr::.or.: no' uo * mitne them as a recommendation 'or an-. :.sr " rich -OU.J in `--ce zn\ paten: s' ner: 103712 ZONOLTTE CONSTRUCTION PRODUCTS DIVISION > C'. A June 19, 1970 70: R. Sterrett, Cambridge T. Egan, Cambridge W. Pickthall, New ' B. Culver, Auburn R. Burnham, Phoenix C. Wendel, Los Angeles D. Nigh, Los Angeles J. Greer, Houston J. Ottinger, Trenton T. Feit, Cambridge B. Chaney, Newark Subject: Recent developments in Asbestos problems The last two days Doyle Nigh and I have had interesting, lengthy conversations with the State of California's Division of Industrial Safety and the Department of Public Health. Our conversations were based on following through after a recent directive from the Division of Industrial Safety dated- June 8, 1970. While in our minds the directive very obviously applied to sprayed asbestos, it was in isolated areas used on Mono-Xote operations. The background for the directive everyone is certainly aware of. The interesting points that came out of our conversations with Mr. ^ Paul Kaplan, Department of Public Health, State of California and Mr. M. Bart, Division of Industrial Safety, State of California, are listed below. In November of 1968, Mr. Xaplan along with a Mr. Jerry Eisen (Division of Industrial Safety) ran an industrial hygienic study at the Beverly Hills High Schoolwiere Mono-Xote was being applied. In summary, the test rather conclusively proves that Mono-Xote as it presently exists is well below the recommended guide standards set by the American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists (ACG3H). This is a nationwide group as the name implies located at 1014 Broadway, Cincinatti Ohio 4S202. The State of California happens to follow the standards as Z believe most other large municipalities would also follow. Page 19 of the 1969 Standard indicates a notice of Intended change. The most important to us being a change in asbestos particles. For simplicity, I will refer to the allowable limits as threshold limit values with the existing unit of 5 million particles per cubic foot (MPPCF). The proposed change in standard for asbestos will be down to 2 MPPCF 0000 8.- Page 2 The test run by Mr. Xaplan and Mr. Eisen independently and simultaneously indicate that Mono-Xote will very probably even meet the more severe new standards. At the present time the Chief Medical Office of the Health Department is attending a seminar being conducted by Dr. Selikoff. The final status of the new standard will undoubtedly be predicated on the results of this seminar and the observations based on the tests run by Mr. Xaplan and Mr. Eisen. This letter is intended to keep you abreast of what we feel are important recent developments in this entire picture. This letter should not in any way stop us from continuing with our most pressing immediate problem, namely, the elimination of asbestos from our present product. However, I personally feel until this does occur we can both morally and honestly continue promoting Mono-Xote without fear. While Doyle and I both consider Mr. Xaplan as knowledgeable a man as we have talked to recently regarding the asbestos hazard, we were both rather amazed that even after running a test on Mono-Xote, Mr. Xaplan honestly did not know the difference between sprayed fiber and cementitioui products. Doyle and I learned one thing. Do not assume your building officials knows the difference between products (one wet, one dry). We are making sure everyone in our area really knows the difference. Specific mention should be given to the excellent job done by Doyle High in establishing the initial contacts with Mr. Xaplan and Mr. Eisen. * Without his quiet insistence on seeing these people, we might have over looked a great deal of what seems to be useful documented information. Sincerely, AWD;lp 106682 ^t *V T'orhrcn'c Compensation Board Labor and Industries Building Calcs, Oregon 2731C Attention: A. F. Schocnborr. Chief Industrial Hygienist Cor.ticoen: c rcciatc **eur inrair** position cf iisr.s-r.ata strryed firr*.r: is a cementitious brand of fireproof: tain approximately 3;:- asbestos. I h: that bc.inc nixed in a plaster air: vit : vatc: as a slurry, at no tii.c is the aslcs; * *i th thc 2rc*rcC ** f - *<j**V^ 9 o For your information I as. enclosing a espy a: a test run by the Grecon State Board a-2 Health on the ; to which you have reference which rives us sr. exceedin'; good rating in accordance with the accepted threshold licit values. very truly ycurc. rnclosures ::illia= V. Culver District Manager C j h? 4m^ fyfr/ 0000 9 TO: See Distribution List FPCM: T. F. Egan DATE: June 26, 1969 Gentlemen: As I noted to sane of you recently, I advocate attacking our fiber coupetition. One of our primary targets, of course, is with the architect. We oust eliminate the fiber specification and get them to straight Mono-Kote or at least a cementitious specification. One of the strongest tools is to use the architects own organiza tion as a creditable witness for proper selection of materials, e.g. Construction Specifications Institute (C.SI). I've attached a copy of the CSI document on specifying sprayed fireproofing. First, you should read and, indeed, study it, because it does a good job of explaining the two basic types of spray. Secondly, since our major concern with fiber is the way they apply the product, I direct you to page GS, under G. Installation Methods, Paragraph Gl, last two sentences: "With fibrous materials, accurate water measurement is highly important. A cannon way to cheat on the . application is to reduce the water flow- at the nozzle, thus decreasing density and increasing coverage per pound of fiber." This should be pointed out strongly to the architect as a warning from his own specification group that it's very likely he will not get what he needs. What he needs is fire protection and that's based on thidciess and density, which ve give him automatically. Combine this with bad practice, sloppy work, medical dangers with asbestos, poor quality materials and you have a real program to go after the architect and get him to remove fibers from his specs and to refuse approval of it on the projects. Page Tvo If we've done our job on the quality of Mono-Kote - then remove the fibers last hope which is price - he get's most jobs based on blowing he can cheat on density and use less than is required according to the tests. Good hunting. Sincerely yours, TFE:dlc T. F. Egan 095063 JUN 3 0 /ij Distribution List C.'R. Babb James Cintani John C. Ottinger Rohn J. Anderson Philip P. Farrell Norman T. Burns Gerold W. Schwartz Edwin Van Vliet Norman Moss Richard C. LaRue J. S. Titus J. R. McLeod Richard A. Feddeck E. D. Bossier G. R. Taylor R. L. Asher R. G. Hartman Patrick F. Riegner Paul P. Benditz Vern G. Mo nry L. P. Holli^THia COPY FOR R. E. Dunham^C. H. Wendel C. R. Lowe E. D. Kerr Stephen J. Sheeran Jud N. McDougall Richard F. Spencer Robert 0. de Bastlan Charles W. Guenther W. J. 3ourke ------William A. Garrison Allan Mann W. T. Dingier S. K. Kerr Duane Gehring T. W. Pickthall Robert F. Chaney Ron Hodges A. W. Dambrcs Doyle D. Nigh W. V. Culver Ralph Burnham R. L. Asher W. G. Gray J. A. McEachern Norm Bushell/Grar.t Industries R. F. Chaney J. Cintani/Zono-Trenton W. V. Culver/Zono-Auburn A. V.'. Dambros/Iono-Los Angeles Office R. 0. de Bastian/Zono-St. Louis W. T. Dingler/Zono-Denver T. E. Dietrick R. E. Dunham/Zono-Minneapolis Office P. P. Farrell R. A. Feddeck Floyd Gebert/Robinson Insulation Co. D. G. Gehring/Zono-Milwaukee W. G. Gray/Zono-Dearborn J. H. Greer/Vermiculite Products, Inc. C. W. Guenther R. G. Hartman/Zcno-Nev Castle R. Hodges L. P. Hollis, Jr./Zono-High Point L. K. Irvine/Vermiculite-Intermountain, Inc. R. P. Johnson R. C. LaRue C. R. Love/Zono-Atlanta Verm. Jack Lyall/Southwest Vermiculite Co. A. H. Mann/Zono-Minneapolis Plant J. N. McDougall/Zono-Omaha J. A. McEachern/Zono-St. Louis J. R. McLeod/Zono-Minneapolis Office E. E. Miller/Zono-Dearborn V. G. Monroe/Zono-lVilders R. B. Moran/Texas Vermiculite Co. N. R. Moss D. 0. Nigh/Zono-Los Angeles Plant J. Ct.Ottinger T. Pickthall/Zono-Newark, Calif. G. W. Schwartz_______________________________________ b. J. bhceran R. F. Soencer ~ ------ Co!ft ?r 096329 . TO: See Distribution List FROM: Thomas F. Egan "" ' DATS: March 13, 1970' ' ^^rJr'Jh^^h-was-given-arjolting reminder: recently^of/a?problem^.thar-you-may have afe;nor7avare of - that'-is'allowinf MohV-Kot^to^ be .caught- in. the; general category "Spray-on Fireproofing." ' ' -* * * One of the largest architectural offices called for support data on Mono-Kote. When I started my presentation by describing that MonoKote was cementitious and how it differed from sprayed fiber, they were very relieved. However, had this been explained earlier, as it 096330 Z0N0LI7E CONSTRUCTION PRODUCTS DIVISION TO: See Distribution List Thomas F. DATE: May 14, 1970 Gentlemen: U. S. Minerals Company has developed a new asbestos-free sprayed fiber "Cafco Type D/CF. The CF stands for "Ceramic Fiber". This does not mean that this product can be sold with UL label service. Our information, as of this date, is that one test has been passed at UL and was a roof deck assembly similar to our RC-5-1 l/2hr. or RC-10-lhr. It has not been listed by UL, and they do not have equivalency with the new product for their other fire tests. There have been recent ads in trade journals stating "U.L. Approved" , which may be correct in the strictest inter pretation, since they ran a fire test. Be alert and keep selling cementitious Mono-Kote and all its advantages. TFE/jac P.S. Pretty reliable sources state this new material will demand a 251 price increase and has a higher tested density. i Col^r DI II BUT ION LIST R. L. Asher/Zono-Boca Raton (P) J. N. Beveridge E. D. Bossier/Zono-New Orleans W. J. Bourke/Zono-Chicago Plant R. K. Bumham/Ari-Zonolite N. T. Burns/Zono-Beltsville CMuirkirk) Norm Bushell/Grant Industries R. F. Chaney J. Cintani/Zone-Trenton W. V. Culver/Zono-Auburn A. W. Dambros/Zono-Los Angeles R. 0. deBastian/Zono-St. Louis W. T. Dingler/Zono-Denver T. E. Dietrick/Zono-Atlanta (V) R. E. Dunham/Zono-Minneapolis Office P. P. Farrell R. A. Feddeck T. P. Feit Floyd Gebert/Robinson Insulation Co. D. G. Gehring/Zono-Milwaukee W. G. Gray/Zono-Dearborn J. H. Greer/Vermiculite Products, Inc. C. W. Guenther R. G. Hartman/Zono-New Castle R. Hodges L. P. Hollis, Jr./Zono-High Point ZONOUTE DIVL L. K. Irvine/Vermiculite-Intermountain, Inc. ^ Louia mo. ez R. P. Johnson R. C. LaRue C. R. Lowe/Zono-Atlanta CV) . Jack Lyall/Southvest Vermiculite Co. - A. H. Mann/Zono-Minneapolis Plant J. N. McDougall/Zono-Omaha ^ J. A. McEachern/Zono-St. Loui*TMISCOFY^FOR^ J. R. McLeod/Zono-Minneapolis ottice W. R. McNally E. E. Miller/Zono-Dearborn V. G. Monne/Zono-Wilders R. B. Moran/Texas Vermiculite Co. , N. R. Moss D. D. Nigh/Zono-Los Angeles Plant J. C. Ottinger T. W. Pickthall/Zono-Newark, Calif. G. W. Schwartz S. J. Sheeran R. F. Spencer G. R. Taylor/Zono-Little Rock J. S. Titus/Zono-Trenton E. VanVliet Drew Webster/F. Hyde $ Co. , Ltd. C. H. Wendel/Zono-Los Angeles Office L. A. White/Zono-Nashville o ZONOLITE CONSTRUCTION PRODUCTS DIVISION TO: See Distribution List FROM: Thomas F. Egan DATE: May 20, 1S?0 NEWS FLASH Gentlemen: Cafco Type D C/F has gotten equivalency from U. L., Inc. on most of their floor assemblies, beams and columns. I do not have the specific numbers, but operate under the fact that they have what is necessary. How this will effect you in the weeks to come, you know best however, I strongly urge that you start selling strong specs to control in-place density. This new C/F product is tested at 18 P.C.F. and IS P.C.F. so it is denser. This is not street knowledge, so please don't you be guilty in spreading it. Let the architect or other find out for himself but stress the fact that with cr without asbestos, fibers are a poor application without strict density control by spec or better codes. Yours truly, TFE/jac Thomas F. Egan `DISTRIBUTION LIST R. L. Asher/Zonc-Boca' Raton (P) J. N. Beveridge E. D. Bossier/Zono-New Orleans W. J. Bourke/Zono-Chicago Plant R. K. Burnham/Ari-Zonolite N. T. Burns/Zono-Beltsville (Muirkirk) Norm Bushell/Grant Industries R. F. Chaney J. Cintani/Zono-Trenton W. V. Culver/Zono-Auburn A. W. Dambros/Zono-Los Angeles R. 0. deBastian/Zono-St. Louis W. T. Dingler/Zono-Denver T. E. Dietrick/Zono-Atlanta (V) R. E. Dunham/Zono-Minneapolis Office P. P. Farrell C7460 ulation Co. D. G. Gehring/Zono-Milwaukee W. G. Gray/Zono-Dearbom J. H. Greer/Vermiculite Products, Inc. C. W. Guenther R. G. Hartman/Zono-New Castle R. Hodges L. P. Hollis, Jr./Zono-High Point L. K. Irvine/Vermiculite-Intermountain, R. P. Johnson R. C. LaRue C. R. Lowe/Zono-Atlanta Jack Lyal1/Southwest Veroiculite Co. A. H. Mann/Zono-Minneapolis Plant J. N. McDougall/Zono-Omaha J. A. McEachern/Zono-St. Louis J. R. McLeod/Zono-Minneapolis Office W. R. McNally E. E. Miller/Zono-Dearborn V. G. Monroe/Zono-Wilders R. B. Moran/Teaas Vermiculite Co. N. R. Moss D. D. Nigh/Zono-Los Angeles Plant J. C. Ottinger T. W. Pickthall/Zono-Newark, Calif. G. W. Schwart2 S. J. Sheeran R. F. Spencer G. R. Taylor/Zono-Little Rock J. S. Titus/Zono-Trenton E. VanVliet Drew Webster/F. Hyde Co., Ltd. C. H. Wendel/Zono-Lcs Angeles Office L. A. White/Zono-Nashville Inc. DISTRIBUTION LIST R. L. Asher/Zono-Boca Raton Poly. P. P. Benditz J. N. Beveridge E. D. Bossier/Zono-New Orleans W. J. Bourke/Zono-Chicago Plant R. K. Burnham/Ari-Zonolite N. T. Burns/Zono-Beltsville (Muirkirk) Norm Bushell/Grant Industries R. F. Chaney J. Cineani/Zono-Trenton W. V. Culver/Zono-Auburn A. W. Dambros/Zono-Los Angeles Office R. 0. de Bastian/Zono-St. Louis W. T. Dingler/Zono-Denver T. E. Dietrick/Zono-Atlanta (Verm.) R. E. Dunham/Zono-Minneapolis Office P. P. Farrell R. A. Feddeck T. P. Feit Floyd Gebert/Robinson Insulation Co. D. G. Gehring/Zono-Milwaukee W. G. Gray/Zono-Dearborn J. H. Greer/Vermiculite Products, Inc. C. W. Guenther R. G. Hartman/Zono-Nev Castle R. Hodges L. P. Hollis, Jr./Zono-High Point L. X. Irvine/Vermiculite-Intermountain, R. P. Johnson R. C. LaRue C. R. Lowe/Zono-Atlanta Verm. Jack Lyall/Southwest Veraiculite Co. A. H. Mann/Zono-Minneapolis Plant J. N. McDougall/Zono-Omaha J. A. McEachern/Zono-St. Louis J. R. McLeod/Zono-Minneapolis Office W. R. McNally E. E. Miller/Zono-Dearborn V. G. Monroe/Zono-Wilders R. B.Moran/Texas Vermiculite Co. N. R. Moss D. D. Nigh/Zono-Los Angeles Plant J. C. Ottinger T. W. Pickthall/Zono-Newark, Calif. G. W. Schwartz S. J. Sheeran R. F. Spencer G. R. Taylor/Zono-Little Rock J. S. Titus/Zono-Trenton E. VanVliet Drew Webster/F. Hyde 6 Co., Ltd. C. H. Wendel/Zono-Los Angeles Office L. A. White/Zcno-Nashville Inc. cjtvtr f ^GRACeJJ] ZO NO LITE renffTiiucnoN mormen division C7405 TO: See Distribution List FROM: Thomas F. Egan DATE: April 17, 1970 Gentlemen: The attached article is very topical to say the least. This is sent to you for two-fold purposes: First of all, it is important that you be alert to the many changes taking place constantly in the field of direct-to-steel' fireproofing. Secondly, since this effects our competitors (sprayed fibers) directly, it is important that you use these facts with architects who have used or are contemplating specifications for sprayed fiber fireproofing. For the present, please sell the inherent advantages of a cemen titious product. This article, having been written by Mr. Rosen, would be an ideal piece to distribute or at least use as a point of reference with all.architects and engineering firms. Keep in touch on particulars. Yours truly TFE/jac Attachment Thomas F. Egan 0964 7 Controlling Construction Pollution This column concludes that due to its contribution to air pollution, asbestos-sprayed insulation must be eliminated in future construction. Rosen is Chief Specifications Writer of Skidmore, Owings & Merrill, New York. The hazards of air and water pollu tion are slowly being recognized as more statistical information on their effect on the human environment is coming to the attention of a con cerned citizenry. Since the pub lication of Silent Spring, by Rachel Canon, people have begun to ques tion the dangerous side effects that result from chemical pesticides, au tomobile fumes, and raw sewage dumped into our streams and riven. Industrial and human wastes, care lessly or innocently disposed of into the atmosphen or into riven, have an effect on natun's biological bal ance that governs the production of oxygen and the growth of marine and animal life. In addition, as archi tects, we should decry the despolia tion of our environment resulting from the accumulation of physical mounds of garbage, junked ears, and industrial waste products. We should also take a closer look at our construction practices to deter mine whether we an a party to this pollution as a by-product of our de signs, and whether we can reduce or eliminate some of our own contribu tions to this problem area. Certainly in demolition of existing structures in urban centers, we should restrict the amount of dust that develops. In some European cities, barriers consisting of plastic envelopes an utilized around demol ition sites to confine the dust result ing from these operations. Perhaps our Building Departments and our Air Pollution Control Departments should institute stricter controls over such procedures. A mon striking example of how architects can nduee pollution that actually contributes to fatalities is in the selection of certain spnyed-on fin proofing and insulating products. In 1900. a London physician, in performing an autopsy upon the body of an asbestos-textile worker found asbestos particles in the lungs and attributed this death to the worker's occupation. Several iso lated instances occurred subsequently when an examination of the lung tissue of deceased asbestos worken indicated the presence of asbestos. In 1924 an English physician. Dr. Cooke, after an extensive autopsy and subsequent search of medical lit erature. concluded that the death of a patient resulted solely from the in halation of asbestos fiben and as signed the name asbestosis to this disease. An investigation of some 363 as bestos-textile workers in Gnat Brit ain in 1928 disclosed that 95, or about 25 per cent, showed evidence of asbestosis. As a result, legislation was enacted in Great Britain to re quire improvements in ventilation and exhaust systems in asbestos-tex tile plants and periodic examination of workers. Although this improve ment in working conditions length ened the life expectancy of these worken, it was learned in 1935 by Dr. Lynch in this country that as bestos worken were dying of cancer as a result of their association with asbestos. Independent investigaton in many parts of the world were like wise coming to the same conclusion based on their studies of the associ ation of worken with asbestos. Dr. Selikoff, of New York's Mount Sinai Hospital had an opoprtunity to examine the records of memben of the Asbestos Worken Union. The study covered a total of 1522 in sulation worken between 1942 and 1962. It was found that the death rate from cancer among these as bestos worken was about seven times greater than that of the gen eral white male U. S. population. These observations are staggering. In addition, one must conclude that not only are people who actually work with asbestoe exposing themselves to asbestosis and cancer, but also ''.hat allied tradesmen in the building in struction industry, closely associated with this work, are subjected to this exposure. Steam fitters, electricians, earpenten. acoustical worken, ma sons, structural steel erectors, and othen employed on projects using spray-asbestos insulation in the area of this contamination, and who in hale these asbestos particles, are ex posing themselves and are likely can didates for this disease. Equally disturbing is the fact that asbestos is practically indestructible: while it may disintegrate, it is an ev erlasting contaminant in the atmo sphere. It has been estimated that during its application as fireproofing to structural steel members and metal decks, about 10 per cent oversh'vj and is projected into the atmosphere. On high-rise structures in urban areas, spray-asbestos fireproofing has been found three and four blocks irom tne construction me so that the unsuspecting general public is likewise subjected to this hazard as well as the tradesman directly invoived in its application. While this relationship between s casual en counter with asbestos and possible development of disease in the public has not been established, it behooves the architectural profession to con sider other materials to perform t..e work of spraved-on fireproofing and insulation. Not only is there a dear and pres ent danger in the initial application of asbestos on the health of the in stallers, but 30 or 40 years hence, when these buildings are torn down, the demolition operations, if not properly controlled, will add more as bestos fibers to the atmosphere. The time to use substitutes for asbestos sprayed insulation is now. Reprinted from PROGRESSIVE ARCHITECTURE \TivCTiON rro. 'TT* division List DATE: June 25, 1570 Gentlemen: The heat from the asbestos problem is radiating in many directions. One which is becoming widespread is a sudden concern-by previously unconcerned building officials over ratings and UL design confor mance. Please be extremely careful on all projects that you secure local building official approval on the use of Mono-Kote for specific projects. Ke have several situations now where the official has started to question lightweight concrete fill used on designs,, show ing structural sand gravel fill after contractors were finished or over half complete. In other words, don't take approvals for granted, get with your building officials and be sure of approvals on designs. Be very careful that your fireproofing applicator has written approval based on submitted UL designs BEFCRE he starts. Many of you do this all the time. However, if you've been working with officials who were lax and "Show me any UL test - okay," get some approval in writing for design submitted on a project. They may suddenly wake up and start demanding all kinds of validation from the contractor. You should know your own local conditions, but ill of you, please don't take anything for granted. Check closely with your contractors that they are not spraying on some verbal order from the general contractor. Worse yet, spraying on your verbal approval. Be careful and be right. TFE/jac Thomas F. Eg'" R. L. Asher/Zoro-Boca Eaten (P) J. K. Beveridge E. D. Bossier/Zono-i\ew Orleans W. J. Bourke/Zono-Qiicago Plant R. K. Bumham/Ari-Zonolite N. T. Burns/Zono-Beltsville (Muirkirk) N. F. Bushell/Grant Industries R. F. Gianey J. Cintani/Zono-Trenton W. V. Culver/Zono-Auburn A. W. Dambros/Zono-Los Angeles Office R. 0. de Bastian/Zono-St. Louis W. T. Dinglcr/Zono-Denver T. E. Dietrick/Zono-Atlanta 00 M. F. Driver R. E. Dunham/Zono-Minneapolis Office P. P. Farrell R. A. Feddeck T. P. Feit F. E. Gebert/Robinson Insulation Co. D. G. Gehring/Zono-Milwaukee R. H. Gilchrist/Grant Industries N. B. Grav/Grant Industries W. G. Gray/Zono-Dearborn J. H. Greer/Vermiculite Products, Inc. C. W. Guenther R. G. Harts:in/Zono-New Castle R. Hodges L. P. Hollis/Zcno-High Point L. JC. Irvine/Vermiculite-Intennountain, Inc. R. P. Johnson E. G. Ladd/Grant Industries R. C. LaRue C. R. Lowe/Zono-Atlahta 00 Jack Lyall/Southwest Vermiculite Co. A. H. Mann/Zono-Minneapolis Plant J. N. McDougal1/ Zono -Omaha Am- J. A. McEachern/Zono-St. Louis^ THIS COPY FOR J. R. McLeod/Zono-Minneaoolis olZiwc " W. R. McNally E. E. Miller/Zono-Dearborn V. G. Monroe/Zono-Wilders R. B. Moran/Texas Vermiculite Co. N. R. Moss D. D. Nigh/Zono-Los Angeles Plant J. C. Ottinger T. W. Pickthall/Zono-Newark, Calif. G. W. Schwam R. F. Spencer G. R. Taylor/Zono-Little Rock J. E. Taylor J. S. Titus/Zono-Trenton E. VanVliet A. D. V.'ebster/F. Hyde & Co., Ltd. C. H. Wendel/Zono-Los Angeles Office L. A. White/Zono-Nashville B. R. Williams r^c>-u c* ZONd-ITE TO: See Distribution List FTlCM: T. F. Egan DATE: August 20, 1970 SUBJECT: Research and Devel ProgTan for Asbest Mono-Xote The attached program prepared by Ralph Bragg is to some extent a report on research efforts outlined from the meeting in Carhridg July 28th and 29th. It is important to note that this report will be revised regular our test program develops and the work will be documented and va in a comprehensive manner. The research work is involved in the most emotional and controve area of construction pollution. Remember that not only are the unproven, but methods or limit values of control have net beer, e Therefore, as the data becomes fact we rust be able to adjust or our research effort. Recent discussion with Johns-Manville personnel - Dr. Sidney Spi Mr. Ed Fenner * confirm my earlier cc^-.c-nts that, barring son:- a medical fact tc the contrary, the health hscard of asbesccs will the ban on loose asbestos particles tc the atmosphere , and preba one year. Already we have lost a major project in Philadelphia;* and l`r. si may follow across the country. The asbestos-free product will i order. Knowing this, 1 again want to emphasi2e the importance of the "i development progra-. discussed in our July meeting. Reference cto my letter of August 10th - "Fireproofing Products Research", r-arket belongs to the firr. that provides a nr.- "pollutjo:.-free" cc-"cntitioui pioduri. VALENTINE, FISHER & TOMLINSON CONSULTING engineers . *. *.A.t.m.m A. m *--- c. >20 uors lUUCiNQ * A . .. 3-0717 S C * TT L C . WaSminSTCn *110' alCNT.nC. m. C. * < r'S*<5. w. C. E fCv: NISN. c.c. March 23, 1971 Mr. William 7. Culver D*r trice Manager, Zonolite Zenolice Conscruccicn Produces Division V.?.. Grace and Company 102 C Screet S.W. Auburn, Washington 98002 -c- Z SSLS LA 1 w ii:st. E ;:n.rr :inmi . tNY L. S't S. JS-Nl, m.c w.LLIAm SEAN A. makniS Sear Bill: Re: Asbestos Office Building Ventilation System Evaluation Report and Testimony as Required As mentioned during our discussions Monday, the subject report would be best presented to the legislature if sponsored by V.R. Grace and Company. Our cose for preparing the subject report was $825.00 which includes a very minimal overload rate and laboratory expense. You may use the subject report if you reimburse us our cost of $825.00. We prefer to supplement our data with additional data. We are prepared tc reduce the cost of the above report by $325.00 if W.R. Grace will retain Valentine, Fisher & Tomlinson to perform additional evaluations. The additional evaluations will involve sampling for asbestos particles in duct air from two buildings, from sampling ports in the return and supply ducts for asbestos particles for a total of 4 samples. Each sample will include 3 millipore filters for a total of 12 filters. The filters will be analyzed by optical microscope for the presence of asbestos particles down to 0.5 microns in particle size. The cost for the additional evaluation is estimated to be as follows: Presurvey (building selection and sampling port locations, etc.) 1 day 9 $15.00/hour Sampling 3 days and 2 men 9 $10.00/hr. $120.00 480.00 Laboratory identification and filter analysis $20.00/sample x 12 samples Report Preparation - 2 days 9 $15.00/hr. 240.00 --* Repent typing, Duplication (5 copies, master available fer use) Supplies, Travel, Misc. Mr. William V. Culver -2 March 23, 1571 Not more chan a maximum fee of $1,300.00 would be charged for che above service. If you require interpretation and testimony before legislative committees or as required, a fee of $15.00 per hour plus expenses will adequately cover such services. Yours truly, VALENTINE, FISHER & TOMLINSON WDS/fb Wesley D. Snowden, Manager Environmental Services 109297 / tI I v_ ZONCLIT3 CONSTRUCTION PRODUCTS DIVISION ,*. March 22, 1971 TO: Committee on Business and Professions REFERENCE: House Bill #927 SUBMITTED BY: Zonolite Division, W. R. Grace ana Co. In review of House Bill #927, Zonolite Division of W. R. Grace Company submits the following recommenda tions for amendment of the .proposed Acz: 1. Page 1, Line 6, add to Section "..which subjects anv individual to -.hestcs fiber counts in excess of the Threshold Lir.ic Value as defined by American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists." Respectfully submitted. Vfilliam V. Culver District Manager 109298 April 1, 1971 !*.r. Gene Killian Seattle Chamber of Caicciercc Seattle* v;ashiagton Reference: Boose Bill 927 Dear Hr. Killion: while Z agree with the intent of the reference bill* I thibk it is necessary that soae yardsticks be applied to the bill which will allow what has been satis factory installation of naterial in the past to continue. To help you understand the situation better, there are two basic kinds of spray fireproofing insulation caterinls on the cachet. One is a cineral fiber containing asbestos and a binder which has been forced .through an air hose in c dry condition and dampened by a water ring at the noanie. The ,, results can be that such of the fiber does not stay in place and can drift outside of the building Units, likewise during service soae of the lightly bonded fibers can fall off and beoowe respirable. It is ay belief the intent of the bill was to prevent this kind of thing from happening. The other kind of fireproofing is generally known as ceesntltions end is wet nixed in a plaster sixer and pushed through a hose as a wet slurry and a spray pattern is produced by a air jet which creates globules. Any material not hitting the beams falls on the floor as discrete particles with the 10% asbestos firmly bound by the gypsum binder. ? //if? c<Jver I am attaching rcrcrts shewing that i:one :'stc it bdcv: the freehold Limit Values as defined by the American Conference of Government Industrial Hygienists. Li2;cwisc, *..*c have had two occupied buildings tested, which shows that thcr is no residual sifting of asbestos out of Mono Kate* Ue appreciate your committee's endorsement of the amendment to Bouse Bill 227 which I submitted to the Legisict Committee on Business and Professions. Very truly yours. ^closures William V. Culver District Manager 10930-7 CC: I would like to hire '.*es Snowden for the up to the uesrinur. he has shown of $50.00 to represent us. I think he knows our place in the market, and would defend us adequately if a discussion comes up regarding asbestos. As you are probably aware, Wes was instrumental in having both the Chamber of Commerce and the Kecbanical Engineers Association support the amendment on asbestos which I proposed to the State Legislature. Attachments tsAc: 109299 C7665 j C.K. Wendel, L.A. |<re *7. ^0C2 0I97)^ V. y. Culver, A^um Felt CAMBRIDGE ? St!!te fTanartnlnt **" ,"dutr,* Hyg*ne Section, VLV control for fireproofing a, 0.11*2; f*2r<toL'f-l "* -J[ f bto. -V W NM by tb.'SSST'S; .?%?,2 yootar than 5 al crons per coble caatlnater. | think with low air presw **** **" ** *bU * **tlon with v tt MB>aunti foaling that rock want would ba treetod the sane a* glass s~^ fiber hleh ts eonaldered one of the nuisance dusts idilch hr* a TLV of 10 %; allllgrans per ctbk neter. It would certainly be helpful If there was sons way to detarnlno that rock wool eootd be eons I dared different than gtasd% and that they have a TLV based on the SI0-2 coaplax. If that could be done, , tt would asks It nore.^TffJcult for the sprayed fiber people to comets with MKHV oven. I think Cadkrtdga ought to hire a consultant to sea tdiere the current sprayed fiber people stand so far as where their asterIel fits la the/ chans of classifications. Hansen Is quite syspathetlc to or efforts to prevent wild legislation to get | through the legislature, and he has requested our help In the fora of ^; tastlaony should a hill be Introduced In the special session of the legislature coning up In January. Vs probably won't get caught asleep again - I hope*. VIIlian V. Cul t te- uf Iff h' //?L Mi 109295 ZONOLITE DIVISION w B OBAC & CO Smmi m' ' T A# ^ C** *>cncl * i'Lww ^t. Attached is sene csrsestondcncc ber.:cn:; Wes Snerdenf the author of the re-; ert "Evaluation far rrcscncc of 'Chester Particles in an Office Building Ventilation Systecr which I sent you sn Deccrbcr 11, end the Dcpartcent c Zenith, Education and Welfare. Tilthsignifleant part of the corres pondence is that 2I.\TCA apparently has a study already under way and perhaps sere, of your contacts in the East eight be able to find out what progress has be. r. node. It voulc be nice if lions note cculd get a clcin bill cf health as WW*u*y ^Ua 4*W* * 4 *#. ** W* tl.to.mi*v m.4 * - V `*> (bit to J.4.. Iver sttiw a i rtr 109301 r V. K. Rogers, *egT anal Manager Usun Aaflan Vflltlaa V. Culver, Aubere January A, 1972 C.K. Wendel, Lae Angela* It la difficult te tall froa the personnel roatar aha working far yen I should bo writing to. so I will sand It to you and oeyke you eon chonno 1 It la tha right direction. . Va have an architect and enylnaer la Seattle da are cananclr*g schaaattes an a 2-*tery hotel for tha suburban Detrlot area. I don't know specifically what torn It la yet. Since wa have laid data to being fireproofing experts In ear area, they Have ashed far whatever help wa can give then with tha fireproofing regalreaants and aaata In tha Detroit area. If there Is ware than one coda la effects I will have to try to pin down tha town closer for hoover ay correspondent will be. VM do nafce cost estlnates for budget purposes on buildings under construction, and I would 11 he sons Ideas as to the board foot cast of applied hone Kata on this kind of a building. Is MK III still acceptable In that narfcet. or Is It necessary to go to HI IV. Ue have nenaged to hang on to KX III and will bo writing T.l.V. specifications when the use of asbestos In HK III Is guestlanod. With seae cooperation free ay correspondent In that aerfcet. oaybo I can repay mo of the efforts people hove node In the past with Tanas ski. W. V. Culver 000013 O') ///* ZONOLITE CONSTRUCTION PRODUCTS DIVISION :z0r^c t BURN.^ASHINCrrON^BOa2^^_f^>?tihif%f2de^2^r725 O *$*.+* *-*.' /(***{., o __ ZtZu~ // Ai*l> Hr. R. B.'Moran, President " Texas Vermicullte Company P.0. Box 6306 Dallas, Texas 75222 Dear Mike: MAR 29 1972 TEXAS VERMICULITE CO The Transamerlca Investment group in Tulsa, Oklahoma, has been awarded the design and construction of the Washington Trust Building in Spokane. As I understand It Washington Trust will be the major tenant. This Job had been through preliminary design In steel wlth'a local architect, engineer and contractor and all of a sudden It was pulled out and given to Transamerlca. | j *\*:< We understand the man In charge Is Thomas F.*Marsha 11, Kelly/ Marshall Associates, Inc., Fourth National Bank Building, Tulsa, 7^119. We would certainly appreciate whatever help we can get, particularly to get Mono-Kote as the fireproofing. .I 1 I am enclosing a copy of the uniform code research recommendation which gives the thicknesses required for various hourly ratings and which are applicable for the City of Spokane. 1 1 The ratings required for this type of building would be for a 3"hour frame and 2-hour floor and roof systems which include the secondary floor and roof beams. Only the columns and beams connecting the columns require three hours. .**. * *l* J * * . We are still using MK-3 locally and don't anticipate any problem of maintaining this approval. We would just as soon not have any reference made to MK-4. We have good applicators serving the Spokane market and If someone was interested in a pre-bid price for a typical floor, we would be happy to ' get one run out. We would like to steer away from the unprotected deck assemblies and with lightweight concrete running $10.00 a yard more in the Spokane market '.If V*#* ftrvfc there is e price advantage to going to a protected deck ina11eu of the 3-1 A" of 1 Jghtweight concrete, ' In the unhappy event Transamerica plans to go concrete, I would hope your people would try to get Mono-Kote on the pan Joist assembly.. Ve do have soeiething going for us In that Spokane Is a Zone T seismic area and I understand their code requires e ductile frame for buildings over 160 feet which Is quite rough for concrete. Dy using our pan Joist system the savings of 18 pounds per square foot Is quite significant in seismic designing. I realize this is a whole lot of Information but so often I have trouble getting Information | thought I would give your salesmen something without being asked for tt. I think this design is going right ahead and certainly appreciate trfiatever.your people can do for us. I owe you one! * Very truly yours; ' -V _ -Vi T s'.,-./* i --V r v : <>. William V. Culver District Manager cc: C.H. Vendel Walt Plckthail ,ifv * 4 V I 4' K * > n 0?7< Ji Georga Bryent Gary Poindexter Bab ftandoll V. V. Culver August 2! 1ST* Mono note The attached sounds such easier to live with than Indications we have had In the pest of what alght transpire. As soon as we get wore Information as to how to help our applicators gain delcy, we will pass this on. n j; Vllilaa V. Culver !! WC: ooooiy C o/fU/, 6e,irr't M3 O>k ^0V99739 ZONOLITE iCCTIOM IKOnvcrS UIVUIOK / 1/IC'UC<* R. L. Asher/Zono-Boca Raton C. R. Lowe/Zono-Atlanta y. K. Rogers/Zono-Ko. Brunswick T. F. Egan/Zono-Wilmette C. H. Wendel/Zono-LA Office R. B.Horan/Zono-Dallas J. H. Great J. B. Robinson A. D. Webstar J. V. WcKague/DSH-Scarborough L. K. Irvine SATE: August 11, 1972 FROM: T. ?. Feit ee: R. X. Fining E. A. Brown M. 0. Favorito T. Lyall B. C. Dueeker J. L. Wright R. Wright R. C. Ericson J. H. Sehachter A. X. Rosenberg P. E. Korenberg P. R. Strand SUBJECT: Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) Gentlemen: We have reason to believe that the promulgation date of the EPA regulations will be in September - near the end of that month. We are also reasonably certain that we will have 90 days from the date of promulgation to eomply. Nothing need be done to alter MR-3 within that time period. Accordingly, our best estimate for the discontinued production of XK-3 is around January 1, 1973. The EPA requirements provide for the possibility of obtaining an extension beyond the 90 days after promulgation. Quoting from a recent letter from our legal counsel: "The violation of the Clean Air Aet occurs when Motto~Kote is sprayed, not when it is produced. The Enforcement Division would aim at those people who spray your product. Consistent with this, any waiver must be obtained by one who sprays, not by W. R. Grace. This does not preclude W. R. Grace from preparing forms for those who spray Xono-Kote to expedite the procedure and not put a work'load on the customer. 112(e) (B) (li) provides that 'the Administrator may grant a waiver permitting such a source a period of up to two years after the effective date of a standard to comply with the standard, if he finds that such period is necessary for the installation of controls ar.d that Page Two August 11, 1972 seeps will be taken during Che period of ehe waiver eo assure chat the health of persons will be protected froa imminent enlargement. "Baum feels that It would be fair and reasonable for one who sprays Mono-Rote to apply and receive an extension. The basis for such a request should be the need for additional tlae to bring the product Into compliance. It would also be useful to indicate that this time is needed to use up most of the existing inventory and to run through existing contracts. I do not advise you to indicate that two years Is not enough time in whieh to comply. In that event no waiver would be granted; consistent with Congressional legislation latent." I. shall continue to keep you updated as additional information becomes available. . 7m, TPF/jaj Thomas P. Felt /. 0997%1 >4 / ///A' *.v<?J? N*S V Qio 000025