Document 80GG32L58m8xKnDb4dNymbzo

Glenn Brown Trial Testimony R. Emmet Kelly October 25, 1991 A.M. 921 1 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. 2 THE JURORS: Good morning. 3 THE COURT: (Inaudible). We were delayed because 4 the attorneys and I were in chambers trying to talk about 5 matters that will shorten things up, so thanks for waiting. 6 Also, I have to go to a lunch meeting about 20 to 12, so 7 we'll take a little bit earlier lunch break than normal. 8 Mr. Kotoske, you may continue, sir. 9 MR. KOTOSKE: The plaintiffs call as their next 10 witness Dr. Emmet Kelly. 11 R. EMMET KELLY, M.D., 12 of lawful age, having been first duly sworn, testified as 13 follows: 14 THE COURT: Now, sir, try to speak into that 15 microphone, if you would (inaudible). 16 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Your Honor, let me ask 17 counsel to speak a little loudly because I have a--somewhat 18 of a hearing impediment. 19 MR. KOTOSKE: Yes, sir, I will. Are you 20 comfortable? 21 THE WITNESS: Fine. 22 MR. KOTOSKE: I'll try to speak loud. 23 DIRECT EXAMINATION 24 QUESTIONS BY MR. KOTOSKE: 25 Q. Would you state your name for the record. LEXOLDMONOQ7119 922 1 A. R. Emmet--E-m-m-e-t--Kelly--K-e-l-l-y, M. D. 2 Q. Can you hear me all right? 3 A. Perfectly. 4 Q. You were a Monsanto employee for several 5 years? 6 A. Quite a few, yes, sir. 7 Q. All right. Tell me a little bit about your 8 educational background, and I'm only interested in your 9 college and medical degree and so forth. 10 A. I went to St. Louis University and received a 11 Bachelor of Science degree in 1930 and received the M.D. 12 degree in 1932. It was a combined course in which you spend 13 six years following secondary high school. 14 Q. When did you first go to work for Monsanto? 15 A. In January of 1936. I had spent three years 16 at City Hospital before that. 17 Q. And after that, you went into the Service 18 there, did you? 19 A. Well, no. I went to work at Monsanto in '36. 20 Went into the Service in '42. 21 Q. All right. And then you stayed in the Service 22 till the end of the war? 23 A. A little bit after it until-- 24 Q. All right? 25 A. --1946. March of '46. Then I returned to LEXOLDMONOQ7120 923 1 Monsanto. 2 Q. (Inaudible)--in 1946 you returned to Monsanto? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. How long--did you work continuously for 5 Monsanto for some period of time until you retired? 6 A. December the 1st, 1974. 7 Q. You retired from Monsanto? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. All right. That's the time frame. Now we'll 10 get into what you did there. At least we have the time 11 frame. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. But after you left Monsanto, did you still 14 continue to consult for Monsanto? 15 A. I was on a consulting basis for one year. Then 16 following that, I would be consultant on individual cases. 17 Q. And were those litigation cases? 18 A. That is correct. 19 Q. And did you testify for Monsanto? 20 A. Yes, I was asked to testify by Monsanto. Are 21 you talking about court testimony or in--or by deposition? 22 Q. Well, let's just--by deposition. Start with 23 that. Did you do that for them--testify by deposition? 24 A. Yes, I did. 25 Q. And you also later testified in court? LEXOLDMONOQ7121 924 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. They paid you for your services? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. Do you recall roughly what they paid you? 5 A. Between 100 and $200 an hour, varying with the 6 year. 7 Q. And was it the same for testimony in 8 deposition and trial both? 9 A. It varied for an out-of-town trial. It would 10 be by the day. 11 Q. Did you charge a little bit more? 12 A. Well, it was $1,500. 13 Q. All right. And that was back--and you stopped 14 being a witness for Monsanto in what year? 15 A. I still am. 16 Q. All right. And you also collect a pension 17 from Monsanto? 18 A. I beg your pardon? 19 Q. And you also collect a pension from Monsanto? 20 A. Yes, I do. 21 Q. And that's still as of today? 22 A. That is correct. 23 Q. All right. Now I want to change the subject 24 to your duties at Monsanto, and I'm only interested in after 25 you returned to Monsanto after your service in the Military, LEXOLDMONOQ7122 925 1 and so that puts us at about 1947? 2 A. '46. 3 Q. ' 46. I'11 try to remember that. In 1946 you 4 returned to Monsanto, and what were your duties? 5 A. They formed a new central medical department. 6 Monsanto at that time was devoted--was split into divisions 7 which carried out the research, marketing and manufacturing, 8 and the central departments were staff departments such as 9 legal, medical, purchasing. Well, they formed the medical 10 department. The duties there were to see that all of the 11 Monsanto workers were given a preventive--preventive type of 12 medical care as well as treatment for any occupational 13 injuries or occupational conditions. That was one part of 14 the--of my duties. The second was to obtain toxicological 15 information on Monsanto products so that we could be in a 16 position to give first--to give safe-handling precautions to 17 our workers as well as our customers. A third was to 18 disseminate to our customers any toxicological information or 19 safe-handling data that we knew that we could avoid--have the 20 customers avoid ill effects of their workers. The fourth was 21 the development of an industrial hygiene program. Industrial 22 hygiene is the type of paramedical work that affords a safe 23 environment for the workers. 24 Q. As--how did you go about collecting 25 toxicological data? LEXOLDMON007123 926 1 A. Well, depends on the product, obviously. If 2 the product had--we would take a new product from Mansanto. 3 If the product had been manufactured by another company, then 4 this was a (inaudible) product. We were making a product 5 that already was on the market. I would call our medical 6 department or medical director and say Dow or DuPont had 7 manufactured this and say, George, what do you know about 8 this; do you have the unpublished data as far as any work you 9 have done? And it was very--it was very good cooperation 10 between the medical department and the various chemical 11 companies. Then I would also look through the medical 12 literature. In the early days, say in 1946, there were not a 13 great number of medical journals devoted to toxicology--one 14 or two in the English language. If there were no information 15 there, then we would run--then we would check on what 16 experience our chemists, our research people, our people in 17 the pilot plant had with this product, because it takes about 18 a year or two years before a product leaves a laboratory 19 bench and is sold to the customers. Then if all of these 20 avenues were--didn't give us the information we needed, we 21 ran toxicological tests on animals. 22 Q. You know, that's interesting. I want to talk 23 to you a minute about the animal testing. That is an 24 important--very important way to determine the toxicological 25 status of chemicals--animal testing. LEXOLDMON007124 927 1 A. Is there a question there? I didn't hear one. 2 Q. Yeah, as a proposition as a medical man 3 yourself, animal testing is a valuable tool for determining 4 toxicological status of certain chemicals? 5 A. Well, it is a tool, and it depends on how the 6 animal reacts. You obviously cannot test humans, so animals 7 are the next best. 8 Q. And that's been true for a long time, has it 9 not, and it is also true today? 10 A. It is true today. I don't know how long it's 11 been true. It's been true since '46, I believe. 12 Q. And animal testing provides a valuable index 13 to the toxicity of certain chemicals? 14 A. It may or may not. 15 Q. All right. Now, while you were there, 16 Monsanto spent several hundreds of thousands of dollars on 17 animal testing on its products, did it not? 18 A. Yes, it did. 19 Q. Monsanto didn't think the animal testing was 20 irrelevant or worthless, did they? 21 A. No. I didn't say it was irrelevant. I said 22 it's a tool that we have. 23 Q. It's a valuable tool, isn't it? 24 A. In some cases extremely valuable. 25 Q. I'm interested now, Dr. Kelly, in who you LEXOLDMON007125 928 1 reported to. What I'm trying to determine is how high up in 2 the company did your reports get? For example, if you 3 had--if Monsanto made a chemical that had an unusual toxicity 4 that could harm people, how high up in the--and you knew 5 about it, how high up in the company would you report to, 6 say, to relate that type of thing? I'm trying to determine 7 the chain of command. 8 A. Well, yes, but you've gotta qualify that first 9 statement. Monsanto made insecticides. (Inaudible) they 10 were very harmful to people if you didn't observe safe 11 handling precautions. So the fact that you made a toxic 12 compound does not mean it's going to be toxic to the users if 13 they avoid contact. 14 Q. No, that's not what I asked you. 15 A. Well, I was trying to straighten out the 16 statement. 17 Q. Who listens to you in the company? Did the 18 president--did you report to the president of Monsanto? 19 A. I reported to the executive committee. I was 20 on a first-name basis with all of the executive committee. 21 Q. That's what I wanted to find out. You 22 reported your information to the executive committee? 23 A. Not-- 24 Q. Who was on the executive committee? 25 A. Not at all times. In the years from 1946 to LEXOLDMON007126 929 1 1974, Monsanto went through a number of reorganizations. I 2 reported sometimes directly to the executive committee, 3 sometimes to a manufacture--the director or one of the 4 members of the board of the directors. I don't know what the 5 title he had. There might have been a member of the board of 6 directors between me and the executive committee. But I 7 could go to the executive committee any time, and I-- 8 Q. You had-- 9 A. Huh? 10 Q. You had full access to the executive 11 committee? 12 A. No guestion about it. 13 Q. All right. Now, we need to know who sits on 14 the executive committee. 15 A. The people who run the company. The 16 president, the chair--who was--the chairman of the board--one 17 of those; maybe the C.E.O. or the chief executive officer; 18 the--probably the director of research and probably the 19 director of marketing and maybe the director of 20 manufacturing. There were probably about five or six on the 21 executive committee. 22 Q. I understand. Is it a fair statement--pardon 23 me. Is it a fair statement that the executive committee sets 24 the policy for Monsanto, or did set the policy for Monsanto? 25 A. Yes. LEXOLDMON007127 930 1 Q. And did the executive committee listen to you 2 when you talked to 'em? 3 A. Yes, they did. 4 Q. Did they follow your advice? 5 A. Well, they--a number of things--if I said I 6 wanted two more doctors, they may or may not. 7 Q. How about with respect to the toxicity of 8 chemicals? Did you ever discuss that with the executive 9 committee? 10 A. You mean in a general manner or about what? 11 Q. I mean with respect to-- 12 A. A single chemical? 13 Q. --a specific chemical. Did you ever say 14 things like, listen, executive committee, we better warn 15 people that come into contact with this stuff about its toxic 16 nature? Did you ever give that kind of information? 17 A. I didn't need to give 'em that because I did 18 the warning myself. That was my responsibility. 19 Q. You were the fellow that prepared the 20 warnings? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Did you write 'em? 23 A. Yes, I wrote 'em. They may have been 24 (inaudible) from a grammatical point of view or put in a 25 brochure, but a substance was written by me to members of the LEXOLDMONOQ7128 931 1 medical department. 2 Q. All right. Now, what was your position in the 3 company? Were you at the executive level? 4 A. No, but I was probably in the top 30. 5 Q. Okay. Of a company that must have had 6 what--several hundred executives? 7 A. Not if that's what you mean by an executive. 8 I mean--I mean--I--no-- 9 Q. I'm talking about policy matters. People that 10 establish policy. 11 A. Well, there again, you could say a policy 12 might be who parks in the parking lot. That's a policy. But 13 if you want what the company does as far as being a good 14 neighbor is concerned, that is the executive committee's 15 policy. 16 Q. Who established the policy--and you may have 17 answered this already--with respect to the warnings on 18 chemicals as to their toxicity? Did you do that? 19 A. I did that. 20 Q. And did you consult with the legal department 21 or did you just do it? 22 A. I did it because I--I knew what it was. 23 24 25 LEXOLDMON007129 932 1 Q. And you did that from -- for what period of 2 time? 3 A. Sometime in '46. And in 1946 the executive 4 committee put out a directive saying that all matters 5 relating to warnings, safe handling would be handled by 6 the medical department. 7 Q. Now, I want to change the subject a little 8 bit, and I'm going to ask you certain names of people. 9 I'm going to give you some names. I want you to tell me 10 who those people were out at Monsanto, if you can, and 11 what they did at Monsanto, and I hope you can remember 12 them. I think you'll know most of them. 13 William Papageorge? 14 A. Yes, I know William Papageorge. 15 Q. Is he sitting here in court? 16 A. Yes, he is. 17 Q. And you've known him for many years? 18 A. Yes, I have. 19 Q. How many years? 20 A. Twenty. 21 Q. What was his job at Monsanto? 22 A. Well, it varied. When I knew him he was a 23 plant manager at the Anniston, Alabama, plant. And then 24 from 1970 till 1974 he was head of our environmental 25 problems or our environmental aspect of chemicals. LEXOLDMON007130 933 1 Q. And did that relate to PCBs? 2 A. Among other things, yes. 3 Q. All right. Mr. E. P. Wheeler, W-h-e-e-l-e-r. 4 A. Yes, sir. Mr. Wheeler was an industrial 5 hygienist that I hired for the medical department in 1947, 6 I believe. He remained there until after I retired. He 7 retired later and is now dead. He was promoted to the 8 director -- the manager of the para-medical part of the 9 medical department, toxicologist, industrial hygienist, 10 librarians, and Wheeler in charge of that. 11 Q. How about Mr. -- and I don't know exactly how 12 to say his name, so I will spell it, B-e-n-i-g-n-u-s. 13 A. Benignus. 14 Q. How did you say that? 15 A. Benignus. 16 Q. What's his first name? 17 A. Paul. 18 Q. Who was he? All these people that I 19 mentioned are Monsanto employees? 20 A. Yes, up to now. 21 Q. Up to now? 22 A. Paul Benignus was an employee who worked in 23 the organic division. As I said, Monsanto is divided in 24 various divisions, and they changed organizations. So in 25 general, he was a development man in the fluid department LEXOLDMON007131 934 1 of which PCBs were part. 2 Q. And do you know about roughly how long he 3 worked out at Monsanto? I know it is hard. 4 A. Twenty-five years. 5 Q. He was not a pass (inaudible)? 6 A. Beg pardon? 7 Q. He was not somebody that was just passing 8 through? He worked there for a long time? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. How about a Dr. Barrett, B-a-r-r-e-t-t? 11 A. He was a scientist in our English company, 12 and I do not know the details of his -- all the details of 13 his job. 14 Q. All right. How about a Dr. Harvy, H-a-r-v-y? 15 A. He was also in our English company. And, 16 again, I do not know all the details of his position. 17 Q. When you say English company, what do you 18 mean? 19 A. Well, we had a plant in @Rowan, Wales. We 20 had a plant in Newport, England. 21 MR. CARNEY: Your Honor, I am going to object 22 to this. I don't see any relevance to that. It doesn't 23 involve any issues. 24 MR. KOTOSKE: It does involve the issues. 25 THE COURT: I'll bear with it. Go ahead, LEXOLDMONOQ7132 935 1 sir. 2 Q. (By Mr. Kotoske) Did you also have a plant 3 in Japan? 4 A. I -- We had a textile plant -- We had a -- I 5 don't know a subsidiary or a joint venture. We had a 6 textile plant. And we may have had a functional fluid 7 plant for a year or so, but I never visited them, and I 8 don't know. 9 Q. Who's Dr. Levinskas, L-e-v-i-n-s-k-a-s? 10 A. Dr. Levinskas is a Ph.D. who was a 11 toxicologist at one of the other chemical companies, and 12 he came with Monsanto in roughly '72 to head up our 13 toxicological department, and he retired last week. 14 Q. He was a Ph.D.? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. He was not a medical doctor? 17 A. He was not. Those two other doctors were 18 Ph.D.s also, Harvy and Barrett. 19 Q. Who was Dr. Noone? 20 A. He was a plant physician at one of our plants 21 in England, eventually became head of the chemical -- he 22 became medical director for our English plants. 23 Q. Paul Wright? 24 A. Paul Wright was a Ph.D. who was a 25 toxicologist for Monsanto. LEXOLDMONOQ7133 936 1 Q. Did you know him to work at IBT? And for 2 your information, and the jury's information. Industrial 3 Bio-Test is what I'm using (inaudible) short, IBT. Are 4 you familiar with that? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Did he work at IBT at some time? 7 A. Yes, he worked there for two years. 8 Q. And he worked for Monsanto before he worked 9 at IBT? 10 A. Yes, he did. 11 Q. And then he went to IBT? 12 A. Yes, he did. 13 Q. And then he came back to Monsanto? 14 A. Yes, but to a different position. He worked 15 at Monsanto as a research chemist in the agricultural 16 department. That job was abolished. He went up to IBT as 17 a toxicologist, to learn toxicology. After two years at 18 IBT, two years give or take a few months, he came back to 19 Monsanto and worked at the medical department. 20 Q. So when he learned about toxicology, his 21 purpose was to learn to - 22 A. Presumably. He did not talk to me before he 23 went up there. In fact, I did not know Paul before he 24 went up there. 25 Q. Did you know him when he came back? LEXOLDMON007134 1 A. Sure. We hired him in the medical 2 department. 3 Q. Then what? And you hired him as what? 4 A. Toxicologist. We had four toxicologists. 5 Q. Pardon? 6 A. We had four. He'd be the fourth. 7 Q. Did you know Dr. Calandra atIBT? 8 A. Yes, I did. 9 Q. Was he a Ph.D.? 10 A.' No. He was both a Ph.D. and an M.D. 11 Q. Did you know a Renate Kimbrough? 12 A. Yes, not close. But I've met her several 13 times. 14 Q. And was she one of the world's renowned 15 scientists in PCBs? 16 A. I think she was a -- She had done a great 17 deal of work on it. I respect her very much. She also 18 did work in epidemiology. And she worked for the 19 government in various positions. 20 Q. Did you regard her as the world's renowned 21 authority on PCBs? 22 A. I never really made that distinction. She 23 was a knowledgeable woman and an honest woman. 24 Q. But did you regard her as the world's 25 renowned authority on PCB? 937 LEXOLDMON007135 938 1 MR. CARNEY: Your Honor, objection. It's 2 asked and answered twice already. 3 Q.(By Mr. Kotoske) Just yes or no. 4 A. No, I -- I don't know who is. 5 Q. I don't either. But there's a suggestion 6 that Renate Kimbrough was the most renowned scientist on 7 PCBs in the United States. Do you accept that as true? 8 A. May, may not. People may. Other people may. 9 I say she is renowned. I don't say she is the most 10 renowned. I don't know. 11 Q. That's a hard decision to make, isn't it? 12 A. Well, I think so. 13 Q. What's your opinion? 14 A. It's a hard decision to make. 15 Q. I'm going to ask you about one fellow from 16 Westinghouse, see if you know him. His name was Wilbur -- 17 and I'm going to have to spell it because I can't say it. 18 A. Speicher. 19 Q. You're exactly right, but let's spell it for 20 the record. 21 A. S-p-e-i-c-h-e-r. 22 Q. And who was he? 23 A. He was a chief industrial hygienist. I don't 24 know if he was the chieft, but he was a senior chief 25 industrial hygienist for the Westinghouse Electric LEXOLDMONOQ7136 939 1 Company. I'm not sure of the years, but certainly through 2 the '50s and on. 3 Q. Did you talk with him? 4 A. I've talked with him, yes. I've talked with 5 him at meetings. He had more contacts with Elmer Wheeler 6 because they were both in the same -- they were both 7 industrial hygienists, but I knew him. I talked with him. 8 Q. Let's see if we can agree on certain things. 9 A. I'll try. 10 Q. This is a general proposition. Let's see if 11 we can agree on some things, and this all has to do with 12 PCBs. 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. This is a PCB case? 15 A. That's what I understand. 16 Q. All right. And these are general 17 propositions, not related to any specific plaintiff in 18 this case. What are the known health effects from 19 exposure to PCBs? 20 A. They can vary from none to rather serious 21 problems. You have to equate the toxicity of a product 22 with the exposure. 23 Q. Exactly. Let us assume for the purpose of 24 this question there is heavy, massive exposure. What then 25 are the known health effects? LEXOLDMON007137 940 1 MR. CARNEY: I'm going to object to the 2 question as being vague. I don't know what he means by 3 "heavy" or "massive." I think you have to define dose. 4 THE COURT: Let's do it this way, can you be 5 any more specific? And if not, I think I'm just going to 6 let the doctor deal with it as best he can. 7 MR. KOTOSKE: I can't. 8 MR. KOTOSKE: You cannot. Well -- 9 Q. (By Mr. Kotoske) What are the situations 10 that you know of where people have been heavily exposed 11 where there are known examples of the adverse health 12 effects on (inaudible) way on the other end (inaudible) of 13 the compendium of exposure is from none to massive, tell 14 me about those people and the known medical conditions 15 from massive exposure. 16 THE COURT: Again, you're speaking generally 17 without any reference to the facts in this case? 18 MR. KOTOSKE: That's right. 19 THE COURT: You may answer, sir. 20 A. Well, let's take the manner of exposure. If 21 you eat it, as has been done in Japan, you will get very 22 serious problems with the skin. You will get bronchitis. 23 You will get deformation of the nails. You'll get 24 pigmentation. You will get various pains and various 25 other complaints. There have been no cases where there LEXOLDMON007138 941 1 have been massive exposures so bad, massive by eating that 2 you would die, but I would imagine if you had a massive 3 exposure of (inaudible) PCBs, you might very well have an 4 extremely serious effect. And in industrial (inaudible) 5 it's not expected to be taken by mouth. If you take a 6 material and have prolonged skin exposure in massive 7 amounts, I presume by that you mean drenched from the 8 waist up to your neck, you could develop either an acute 9 episode of liver problems or if it were not great enough 10 to give you liver problems, one could get chloracne. 11 Now, then, the third exposure, massive exposure is if you 12 heat the material in an open vessel and breathe it, in a 13 large enough vessel, breathe it in a large enough amount, 14 you could develop a chemical hepatitis. 15 Q. Pardon me? 16 A. You could develop a chemical hepatitis. 17 Hepatitis is a liver disease, sort of like jaundice, but I 18 must say that in 40 years with Monsanto I have never had 19 any (inaudible). 20 MR. KOTOSKE: I'll move to strike. Your 21 lawyer will (inaudible). 22 MR. CARNEY: Your Honor (inaudible). 23 THE COURT: (inaudible) It will be stricken. 24 Q. (By Mr. Kotoske) What are the known health 25 effects to the lungs when breathing the fumes of PCBs? LEXOLDMON007139 942 1 A. In what manner? A massive exposure? 2 Q. All these are massive exposures. 3 A. Chemical bronchitis. 4 Q. Have you heard of a disease called chronic 5 obstructive pulmonary disease? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Can you get that from massive exposure to 8 PCBs? 9 A. If it (inaudible) enough, yes. 10 Q. How about small airway disease? As a medical 11 doctor you know what I mean by small airway disease? 12 A. Yes, I know what you mean. 13 Q. Can you get that condition from massive 14 exposure of PCBs? 15 A. I don't know. It hasn't been reported. 16 Q. You know of no medical articlesreporting 17 that condition? 18 A. No, I didn't say that. I mean it's -- it has 19 not been shown epidemiologically that people get small 20 airway disease from exposure to PCBs. Now, this is not 21 your -- I don't know what would happen in your supposition 22 of a massive exposure over a long period of time because 23 that work hasn't been available. That information has not 24 been available. 25 Q. You are aware -- At least when you left LEXOLDMON007140 943 1 Monsanto you were aware of no medical study that reported 2 on small airway disease from exposure to PCBs? 3 A. In industrial operations, no. 4 Q. Now, I want to change the subject to the 5 nervous system. Are you aware the medical literature 6 reporting on neuropathies, dystonia and tremors from 7 exposure to PCBs? 8 A. Yes. They do show in the Japanese 9 (inaudible) 10 MR. CARNEY: Let me object to the question. 11 He asked about three things. It's compound. He asked 12 about tremors, dystonia and neuropathies. 13 Q. (By Mr. Kotoske) I'll break it all down. No 14 problem here. I'll break it down. I'm going to talk 15 about the nervous system of people exposed to PCB in 16 massive amounts. And you can assume I'm always talking 17 about the massive exposure. It was reported in the '60s 18 and early '70s, and you're quite correct in the Yusho 19 there were certain neurological disorders from exposure to 20 PCBs that included neuropathies. 21 MR. CARNEY: I'll object. The question is 22 unclear. He's talking about Yusho. There were furans 23 that were causing (inaudible) and I think that (inaudible) 24 MR. KOTOSKE: Let me (inaudible) this, Judge. 25 THE COURT: Overruled. We'll proceed. LEXOLDMON007141 944 1 Finish your question. 2 Q. (By Mr. Kotoske) I'm sorry. Where 3 neuropathies reported with respect to the people 4 (inaudible) Yusho? 5 A. The people in the Yusho incident were exposed 6 by ingestion, by eating material. They ate a Japanese PCB 7 that was manufactured by a different method than the 8 Monsanto PCB. It had (inaudible). 9 MR. KOTOSKE: Move to strike. It's not 10 responsive. 11 THE COURT: I'm not going to do (inaudible) 12 at this point. If you think he's off the point. 13 Q. (By Mr. Kotoske) The question is why. This 14 is the question I'm asking. 15 MR. CARNEY: Your Honor, he was in the middle 16 of an answer. And I object to this interrupting. 17 THE COURT: It wasn't responsive, but I'm not 18 going to strike it. Ask your question, Mr. Kotoske. 19 MR. KOTOSKE: I will. 20 Q. (By Mr. Kotoske) A nervous condition was 21 reported in connection with the Yusho incident where 22 people ate PCBs. What was that nervous condition? 23 A. Well, Your Honor, he's using PCBs, that 24 widespread term. As I understand in this particular trial 25 we are not talking about Japanese PCBs. LEXOLDMON007142 945 1 MR. KOTOSKE: Well, let's move to strike all 2 of that. 3 THE COURT: Doctor, if you can't answer it 4 the way it's asked, just tell us, and then it will be 5 rephrased. 6 A. Yes. Please explain what PCBs you're talking 7 about. 8 Q. (By Mr.Kotoske) The Japanese PCBs that were 9 eaten by people in Japan. 10 A. Containing various contaminants. 11 Q. Fine. 12 A. Huh? 13 Q. Yes. Fine. Put that in yoursupposition. 14 What neurological conditions did they exhibit? 15 A. They had some numbness, some tingling, some 16 tremors, not all. May I finish? 17 Q. Yes. 18 A. Not in comparison to the amount ingested. 19 There were some studies that showed that people that had 20 ingested more PCBs didn't show the tremors or the symptoms 21 of pain or stiffness in the joint while others who had 22 less exposure did. 23 Q. Did they also exhibit -- You mentioned the 24 tremors. Did you mention dystonias? You know what 25 dystonia is, don't you? LEXOLDMONOQ7143 946 1 A. I know what some people call dystonia. 2 Dystonia is a problem with muscle use. 3 Q. Was that exhibited in the Yusho studies? 4 A. I can't recall whether it was or not. 5 Q. All right. And the neuropathies. We're 6 talking about neuropathy. Was that exhibited in the Yusho 7 study? 8 A. Forty-three percent of one group showed some 9 changes in their EMG, which is an electrical test of 10 nerves. 11 Q. And you believe an EMG is proof positive of a 12 neuropathy? 13 A. Yes. It doesn't show the cause -- what other 14 causes there may be. There may be alcoholic neuritis or a 15 (inaudible). There may be a number of causes. 16 Q. What are the effects of massive exposure to 17 PCB on the heart? 18 A. Again - 19 MR. CARNEY: I object to the question again, 20 Judge. He's talking about massive exposure. And he is 21 not relating it to the amount. And he's referred to some 22 of these plaintiffs getting massive exposure and that's 23 (inaudible). 24 MR. KOTOSKE: Your Honor, we don't need this 25 kind of prompting of the witness. LEXOLDMON007144 947 1 THE COURT: I understand your objection, sir. 2 I'm going to make the same ruling. Overruled. If the 3 doctor wants to qualify anything, he can. 4 A. Now, what massive exposure, (inaudible) 5 unconscious? 6 Q. (By Mr. Kotoske) In some cases there have 7 been cases where people have passed out in this case, 8 having to be carried out of the plant. 9 MR. CARNEY: Objection. Your Honor, there is 10 no evidence that anybody passed out because of exposure to 11 PCBs in this case. 12 THE COURT: I'm going to sustain the 13 objection. I want you to define it if you can so we can 14 move this along, what you mean by massive exposure. 15 Q. (By Mr. Kotoske) I'm going to use this 16 situation, and tell me whether or not you think that is 17 massive exposure. Listen to these facts. 18 A. These facts or assumptions? 19 Q. Facts. 20 A. These are facts. 21 Q. Assume these facts are true. A man works as 22 a heater man. He floods an oven on a daily basis with 23 PCB. This oven is 40 feet long, 6 feet wide, 6 feet tall, 24 and he is making capacitors with PCB-1242. Do you 25 understand what PCB-1242 is? LEXOLDMON007145 948 1 A. Yes, I do. 2 Q. For a period of six years during this job he 3 is drenched, drenched. His clothes are drenched every day 4 in PCBs. When he opens this oven, the PCBs are heated, 5 and he breathes the fumes of heated PCBs and sees the 6 smoke and haze. He gets nauseous. He vomits. He gets 7 dizzy from this exposure on a daily basis for six years. 8 Do you call that massive? 9 MR. CARNEY: Let me object, Your Honor. I 10 think he's mischaracterized the testimony I heard. I 11 think he's talking about Mr. Fritch, who was the only 12 heater man. And he didn't say drenched every day. And I 13 think there were some other things that were an 14 over-statement. 15 MR. KOTOSKE: Your Honor, we don't need his 16 testimony. 17 THE COURT: Well, the jury will recall what 18 the evidence was. (inaudible) 19 Q. (By Mr. Kotoske) Would you call that a 20 massive exposure? 21 A. If the facts are as you state, and I have no 22 reason to believe that they are as you state because I 23 have never heard of any company with that type of 24 exposure. 25 Q. You would find that outrageous, wouldn't you? LEXOLDMONOQ7146 949 1 A. I would find that unbelievable, yes. 2 Q. Good. Now - 3 A. All right. Assuming this man had this 4 massive exposure for six years, assuming that, I have to 5 ask you one question, did he have chloracne? 6 Q. Yes. He exhibited rashes. 7 MR. CARNEY: Your Honor, I object. 8 A. That's a different rash, not chloracne. 9 Q. Dr. -- 10 MR. CARNEY: There is no evidence in this 11 case that Mr. Fritch had chloracne. 12 MR. KOTOSKE: Mr. Carney, your objection is 13 noted. I told him to rephrase it (inaudible) 14 Q. (By Mr. Kotoske) He exhibits rashes on his 15 body, in his groin, on his stomach, on his neck and his 16 hands and arms repeatedly. We don't know if it's 17 chloracne because we can't biopsy it 30 years later to 18 find out if it is or not, but he has these rashes. All 19 right. Now, would you call that a massive exposure? 20 A. First, we've got to define this rash. PCBs 21 act as a pigment remover. You can get a redness on your 22 body, on your groin from PCBs the same as you can get them 23 from turpentine. However, the systemic marker for PCB 24 intoxication or the benchmark for PCB over-exposure is 25 chloracne, and that's a different type of rash completely LEXOLDMON007147 950 1 from a turpentine rash or a PCB skin rash. 2 Q. Are you saying to this jury that you can't 3 have a PCB exposure unless and but for chloracne? 4 A. Of course you can get the exposure. Yes, you 5 can get exposure, but you won't get systemic illness. 6 Q. Tell the jury what chloracne is. 7 A. Chloracne is like teenage acne, only worse. 8 It is accompanied by pigmentation. That's darkness of the 9 skin. It's when it becomes infected you get infected 10 cysts and scarring. It's a result of not the PCBs getting 11 on your skin, but PCBs being absorbed into your system and 12 changing the fat metabolism of your sweat glands, 13 sebaceous glands. 14 Q. Let me just ask you point blank, are you 15 telling the jury that chloracne is like teenage acne? 16 A. Of course not. I didn't tell them that. I 17 said it's like teenage acne, only much worse. You didn't 18 hear all my answer, Mr. Klawans. 19 Q. Well, I'm not Klawans. I'm Kotoske. 20 A. Kotoske. 21 Q. Are you saying you cannot have a medical 22 condition -- adverse medical condition from exposure to 23 PCBs unless you first have chloracne? 24 A. That is my statement, and that is also the 25 statement of Renate Kimbrough. LEXOLDMON007148 951 1 Q. Well, I know. I know. By the way, Renate 2 Kimbrough is now a private consultant, is she not? 3 A. I don't know. 4 Q. She consults with General Electric, does she 5 not? 6 A. I don't know. The last time I saw her she 7 was (inaudible) with the government. 8 Q. The government was one of the biggest users 9 of PCBs. 10 A. Yes, they were. (inaudible) It was their 11 patent. 12 Q. Now, assuming there's a massive exposure, 13 what conditions have they documented with respect to the 14 heart? Does PCB cause any heart (inaudible)? 15 MR. CARNEY: Your Honor, let me object again. 16 He's using this word "massive" without any definition. 17 MR. KOTOSKE: There is a definition in the 18 record. 19 THE COURT: Well, I want you to define it a 20 little bit, so we can move this along. What do you mean 21 by "massive" in your question? 22 MR. KOTOSKE: No. When I use massive -- I've 23 defined it for you. And whenever I use massive, that's 24 the definition I am using. 25 THE COURT: State it again for my benefit. LEXOLDMONOQ7149 952 1 What do you mean by that? 2 Q. (By Mr. Kotoske) A man is a heater man. He 3 works at a Westinghouse capacitor plant. He uses 1242, 4 among other things. 5 THE COURT: The facts that you stated 6 earlier? 7 MR. KOTOSKE: Right. 8 THE COURT: Proceed. 9 Q. (By Mr. Kotoske) Do you know of any 10 scientific literature that documents heart disease from 11 exposure to PCB? Just a simple yes or no will do. And if 12 there is, tell me the (inaudible). 13 A. Yes. There have been epidemiological 14 studies. The one that I know of that I've stated that 15 there has been an excess of non-arteriosclerotic, that's 16 the high blood pressure type of heart disease, due to 17 PCBs. However, when you analyze those particular cases, 18 you find you're talking about rheumatic fever, for one. 19 You're talking about diabetic gangrene. So that 20 particular epidemiological study, I don't know if you 21 consider that a scientific study, but I do not believe 22 it's accepted by scientific authorities that PCBs cause 23 heart disease. 24 Q. And you explain it away by what? These 25 people had other conditions? LEXOLDMONOQ7150 953 1 A. Well, no, but they didn't -- if you think 2 that rheumatic fever, rheumatic heart disease is due to a 3 chemical, that certainly flies in the face of all 4 scientific information for the past 50 years. 5 Q. What scientific literature is there that 6 documents liver damage from exposure to PCB? That's a 7 well known consequence from exposure to PCB, isn't it? 8 A. It's well known in acute episodes, yes. 9 Q. And that's been known for what, 50 years? 10 A. Well, first of all -- No. The PCB exposure 11 that I know about with liver disease occurred in two 12 non-electrical applications. These are the two that have 13 been reported to me, two that I've seen in the literature, 14 that was an acute episode which you heated the material 15 up, breathe it in a confined space. There was a heat 16 exchange situation where it leaked, and the people were 17 exposed to that for three days, and it leaked, and they 18 developed hepatitis, which is jaundice, and they got over 19 it in a relatively short time. 20 Q. What other liver damage was done besides 21 hepatitis? 22 A. In humans? 23 Q. Yes. 24 A. I don't know of any. 25 Q. How about in rats? LEXOLDMON007151 954 1 MR. CARNEY: Your Honor -- 2 Q. (By Mr. Kotoske) Animal studies? 3 MR. CARNEY: I think we need to approach the 4 bench on this. He's getting into an area. 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 (There was a conference at the bench.) 7 THE COURT: He's going to ask you another 8 question. 9 Q. (By Mr. Kotoske) Staying with the liver and 10 PCB exposure, has it been documented -- Do you know of 11 scientific literature that documents enzyme imbalance in 12 the liver due to exposure to PCB? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Do you know of situations where porphyrins 15 have been out of balance because of exposure to PCB, 16 either high or low? 17 MR. CARNEY: I'm going to object to the 18 relevance. There is no foundation. 19 MR. KOTOSKE: Can't hear. 20 MR. CARNEY: We have (inaudible.) 21 THE COURT: I'm going to overrule the 22 objection, as long as it will be stricken. 23 THE COURT: You may answer, doctor. 24 A. Would you repeat the question? 25 MR. KOTOSKE: Can we read this one back? I LEXOLDMONOQ7152 955 1 want to be relatively sure, and I won't do this very 2 often. 3 (The reporter read back as requested.) 4 A. Yes, but -- 5 Q. (By Mr. Kotoske) Thank you. That's the only 6 question. You have a lawyer here who can cross-examine 7 you. 8 THE COURT: I'm going to let him answer. You 9 may finish, sir. 10 A. There have been studies when they are high. 11 There have been studies when they are low. So I don't 12 think there's been a great deal of scientific validity put 13 on the porphyrin changes and exposures that these 14 individuals had. 15 Q. By the way, let me ask you something. Have 16 you ever published any articles on the adverse 17 consequences from exposure to PCB? 18 A. No, sir. 19 Q. Thank you. Now, I want to change the subject 20 a little bit. Tell the jury what furan is. 21 A. Can I go over to the -- 22 Q. You want to write on the blackboard? 23 A. Yes,please. (Inaudible) chemistry, but - 24 We're talking about -- Let's start with polychlorinated 25 biphenyl, PCB. This is -- You've heard, I'm sure, benzene LEXOLDMON007153 956 1 (inaudible) and talk about that. Here's one. Here's 2 another. And these are various places where they have 3 been chlorinated. Well, we knock this one out here, and 4 we put the oxygen in here. And this goes over here. So 5 that's the furan, dibenzofuran. It has oxygen, and it's 6 chlorinated, of course, for various amounts. So it's a 7 completely different horse after (inaudible) and where the 8 benzene (inaudible) directly together. So this one is -- 9 That's a different one, but I'll put this down here to 10 show you -- These are all carbon atoms here and a carbon 11 here, but over here you do not have that carbon to carbon. 12 You have an oxygen. And without elaborating the 13 chemistry, it only takes a small dip of change in the 14 molecular structure or the physical structure of a 15 compound. Diamond's carbon, and (inaudible) coal is 16 carbon. So they are a lot different. You can take 17 Haldol, which a lot of people used to take, and you change 18 the chlorine on it, and you get bichloro (inaudible) 19 chlorine, and you get another toxic compound. Haldol 20 works very close to (inaudible), one less chlorine. So 21 you cannot go by structure. 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Were you finished? 24 A. Yeah. 25 Q. What causes PCBs to produce furans? What do LEXOLDMONOQ7154 957 1 you have to add? 2 A. You have to keep the PCBs in the presence of 3 oxygen to a temperature of 600 to 800 degrees centigrade 4 or Celsius. 5 Q. And what's that based on? 6 A. Beg pardon? 7 Q. What's that temperature based on? 8 A. I'm sorry. I can't hear you. 9 Q. What is that temperature based on? Where did 10 you get those numbers? 11 A. I got it from scientists, and I've read it in 12 the literature. 13 Q. What literature did you read that in? 14 A. Well, I don't remember it, but it's common 15 knowledge to scientists. 16 Q. Common knowledge that you have to heat it to 17 what? 18 A. 600 to 800. 19 Q. 600 to 800 Fahrenheit? 20 A. Centigrade. 21 Q. That's Fahrenheit. 22 MR. CARNEY: Objection. Centigrade. That's 23 what the 24 A. Either one is pretty hot. 25 Q. (By Mr. Kotoske) You've got to add heat to LEXOLDMON007155 958 1 PCB, heat to produce furan? 2 A. No. You also have to have oxygen. 3 Q. Well, I understand that. But the pyro 4 (inaudible) can't exist to heat the fire -- The heat can't 5 exist without oxygen? 6 A. But you have PCB in a container, a closed 7 pipe, you don't have oxygen. 8 Q. All right. You have to have oxygen and heat 9 for this chemical to change into a furan? 10 A. But if you get too much heat, then it's 11 destroyed. After 800 degrees degrees the PCBs are 12 destroyed. 13 Q. How toxic are furans? 14 A. Quite toxic. Much more toxic than PCBs. 15 Q. A small amount could be very, very toxic, 16 could it not? 17 A. If you (inaudible) it, yes. 18 Q. As a matter of fact, over 100 days period of 19 time, just 100 days, .6 milligrams can kill you; isn't 20 that true? 21 A. I'm sorry. But you're talking about 22 something I didn't hear the first part of it. 23 Q. Why don't you assume an exposure to PCBs that 24 are heated, and let's use your numbers down here. 25 .6 milligrams of this furan will kill you, true? LEXOLDMON007156 959 1 A. Well, it certainly hasn't shown -- It's 2 possible if the human species responds like the mink does, 3 if it responds like the guinea pig, we don't know, but 4 it's a very toxic compound, probably 2,000 times more 5 toxic than PCBs. 6 Q. I want the jury to get the (inaudible) of 7 what we're talking about. If you take a regular aspirin, 8 just an aspirin size, how many milligrams does a normal 9 aspirin have in it? 10 A. Well, it's 5 grains, and that's 60 11 milligrams, it's about 300 milligrams. 12 Q. A normal aspirin, just a normal one has 350 13 milligrams. Less than half of 1 milligram of furans, 14 exposure to furans over 100 days can kill you, couldn't 15 it? 16 A. It's possible. 17 Q. It could cause very serious toxic effects? 18 A. Well, it hasn't been shown in humans because, 19 obviously, we can't test humans. 20 Q. It's been shown in animal studies, hasn't it? 21 A. I'm sorry. I couldn't hear. 22 Q. It's been shown in animal studies? 23 A. Yes, it has. 24 MR. CARNEY: Just a minute, Your Honor. He 25 was in the middle of a question -- or an answer. LEXOLDMON007157 960 1 THE COURT: Let him finish his sentence. 2 A. You're talking about furans. You haven't 3 mentioned amount. It's in parts per million in the 4 Japanese PCBs. 5 Q. I'm not talking about the Japanese PCBs 6 (inaudible). 7 A. I wanted to clarify. 8 Q. Thank you. I appreciate it. Let's stay on 9 the subj ect. 10 A. I thought I was staying on thesubject. 11 Q. It was reported in animalstudies the 12 toxicities of these furans that we are talking about. 13 They can cause heart disease in animals. It's been known. 14 Animal studies have shown they cause heart disease. Have 15 you read those studies? 16 A. No, I have not. 17 Q. Liver disease? 18 MR. CARNEY: Your Honor, I'll object to this 19 line of questioning. I don't think there is any evidence 20 that furans were in the PCBs at Monsanto in the 21 Bloomington plant. 22 MR. KOTOSKE: We understand that. 23 THE COURT: Did you make this up? 24 MR. KOTOSKE: PCBs cause furans which are 25 highly toxic, just like he said. LEXOLDMON007158 961 1 THE COURT: (inaudible) Subject to being 2 connected up. 3 MR. CARNEY: Well, (inaudible). 4 Q. (By Mr. Kotoske) Now, just stay with me now. 5 We are not talking about Japan, and we are not talking 6 about Japanese PCBs. I'm just talking about furans. 7 Furans are produced from heating PCB at a certain 8 temperature in the presence of oxygen. I want to ask you 9 whether you know of animal studies that show the toxicity, 10 adverse health consequences to animals with respect to 11 these diseases, heart conditions? 12 A. I do not know. They may exist. I do not 13 know. 14 Q. Liver conditions? 15 A. I'm sure there's been some work on that, yes, 16 sir. 17 Q. Nervous system? 18 A. In animals? 19 Q. Yes. 20 A. I don't know of any. They may. I don't know 21 of any. 22 Q. Now, I want to change the subject a little 23 bit, and I'm going to go to some exhibits, some documents. 24 And I want you to have before you Exhibit No. 11, and I'll 25 tell you that I'm going to refer to pages in that exhibit, LEXOLDMON007159 962 1 and I'm going to ask you some questions about that. Now, 2 you have before you Exhibit No. 11, and can you see that 3 they are paginated in the lower right-hand corner pages 1 4 through so forth, and I'll show you, help you. You see 5 that? This is the number, like 3, 5? 6 A. Uh-huh. 7 Q. That's the number I'm going to be referring 8 to. I am not going to be referring to this Bates number. 9 Now, look at page 1. 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. Do you have that? 12 A. Yes, I do. 13 Q. Okay. You know what that is? 14 A. It's a material safety data sheet from the 15 U.S. Department of Labor. 16 Q. Was that prepared by Monsanto? 17 A. Very probably it was. 18 Q. I'm interested in that, doctor. Can you 19 explain to us because you're (inaudible) for a long time, 20 why are there no material safety data sheets prior to the 21 date of this one which was July 30, 1972? 22 A. Well, I do not believe that was -- The 23 material safety data sheets were mandated by the 24 Department of Labor, either that or by the Department of 25 Transportation. So all companies started them up about LEXOLDMONOQ7160 963 1 that time. 2 Q. Oh, so that's the explanation? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Did you, nevertheless, have an internal 5 material safety data sheet? 6 A. Yes. We had some, yes. 7 Q. What's the purpose of these material safety 8 data sheets? 9 A. To educate the people in transportation and 10 to educate the workers in various plants that use the 11 material. 12 Q. All right.Did you give these' to 13 Westinghouse; do you know? 14 A. I don't know whether we did or not. I would 15 imagine we did because -- 16 Q. You don't remember one way or the other? 17 A. No, I know we gave them -- we received 18 inquiries from all our companies asking for material data 19 safety sheets. I don't know whether we gave them to 20 Westinghouse. 21 Q. I want you to turn to page 16, which is 22 (inaudible) 1242 which we know for sure was out at 23 Westinghouse. 24 MR. CARNEY: Which page? 25 A. We know for sure what? LEXOLDMON007161 964 1 Q. (By Mr. Kotoske) Page 16. Are you on page 2 16? 3 A. Yes, I am. 4 Q. Now, these aren't the best copies, but it's 5 the best we can do. Do you see toward the bottom of the 6 page where it says "Special manufacturing of -- Pardon. 7 Pardon. "Special fire fighting procedures." 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. And it suggests equipment somebody should 10 have when this stuff is on fire, and it says "Respiratory 11 protection when fighting fires or exposure to vapors or 12 gases is possible." Is that what it says? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Okay. And then it says underneath that, and 15 it's hard to read, "Explosion Hazards." Do you see that 16 one? 17 A. Yes, I do. 18 Q. And it says withrespect toexplosions, "High 19 toxic gases, fluorides and chlorane can be involved in 20 fires of this product." Have I read that correctly? 21 A. Yes, you have. 22 Q. Turn to page 17 a minute where it talks about 23 "Effects of over-exposure." Do you see that, the second 24 line down from the top? 25 A. Yes, sir. LEXOLDMONOQ7162 965 1 Q. And it says, "Skin irritation in the form of 2 acne, chloracne, systemic intoxication leads to nausea, 3 vomiting, loss of weight, edema and abdominal pain." Did 4 I read that correctly? 5 A. Yes, you did. 6 Q. And in order to correct this problem and 7 there has been this exposure, you are warned to remove the 8 person from exposure, remove contaminated clothing, wash 9 contents in area with amounts of water and soap and refer 10 the person to a physician? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. And that's what you do when you have this 13 kind of exposure? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. I want you to turn to page 22, if you will, 16 please. By the way, I forgot to ask you something. On 17 this material safety data sheet that I just went through, 18 that's Monsanto's own prepared document, is it not? 19 A. Yes. I mean we prepared it, yes. 20 Q. Did you prepare it? 21 A. No, I didn't prepare it. I prepared -- I 22 gave the information on the section on -- I'm trying to 23 read it. It says, "Signs of" -- Well, I gave them the 24 safe handling data, and I can't read where it said what 25 happens. LEXOLDMONOQ7163 966 1 Q. (Inaudible) cut this short. What I'm trying 2 to establish, is this information well known to Monsanto 3 at least by the date of the document? What's the date? 4 A. 1970 -- '72. 5 Q. But you already knew all this information way 6 back in the '50s and '60s, didn't you? 7 A. Which all? We knew that skin irritation 8 could occur. We knew that chloracne could occur. We knew 9 if you caught on fire, you would have hydrochloric acid 10 and chlorine released. Yes, we knew that. 11 Q. And you knew exposure would cause nausea and 12 vomiting? 13 MR. CARNEY: I'm going to object. He has to 14 define what exposure is, whether it's long-term or acute. 15 THE COURT: Rephrase. 16 Q. (By Mr. Kotoske) You, yourself, have had a 17 hand in preparing this document. What did you mean by 18 "exposure" when you use that word? 19 A. It could be anything. It could be a truck 20 falling over, a truck catching on fire. It could be 21 exposure in the workplace, yes. It could be any -- You 22 have a certain amount of space on the safety data sheet. 23 You have a certain amount of information to put on. Now, 24 systemic intoxication leading to nausea and vomiting has 25 only been on acute episodes like the ones I said on the LEXOLDMON007164 967 1 heat transfer agency where they leaked, but I can't go 2 into all that on three lines. So we put everything in. 3 Q. What did you mean by exposure when you used 4 the term when you helped draft it? Just tell us what you 5 meant by that. 6 A. Exposure that could occur in a transportation 7 vehicle, that of a tank car or truck where you would 8 rupture the tank car, and you would get exposure there. I 9 couldn't quantify the amount of exposure, or a couple of 10 55-gallon drums would fall out of a truck and break open. 11 I include that type of exposure. And I have to put 12 exposure in a workplace, but, remember, this is not the 13 only thing that the worker got. This was started off by 14 the transportation people. So the worker had other 15 information sent to his company by Monsanto that detailed 16 what should be done. 17 Q. Let me me give you a couple of examples of 18 exposure and tell me if they would be included in examples 19 that shows (inaudible). A guy is unloading a tanker truck 20 and the hose brakes or something goes wrong and he just 21 gets drenched. Would you include that as an exposure? 22 A. Certainly would. 23 Q. How about a situation where fellows are 24 taking hot (inaudible) full of 1242 and soldering on 25 (inaudible) and fill them up with fill holes, and it gets LEXOLDMON007165 968 1 all over them. Would you include that in exposure? 2 Q. First how hot is it? How hot is the 3 temperature? 4 Q. I'm just talking about exposure to PCBs, not 5 furans. 6 A. I know that, but you're not giving me enough 7 facts to go on. You're saying exposure. 8 THE COURT: You mean vapor exposure or 9 physical? 10 Q. (By Mr. Kotoske) No. I'm talking about 11 something inside the fill holes in a capacitor after they 12 are flooded with PCBs, dripping with PCB oil, and then 13 they work on them and get the stuff all over their 14 clothes. Would you call that exposure? 15 A. If they get the stuff all over their clothes, 16 yes, that is exposure. 17 Q. How about a situation where -- Let's see. 18 How about a situation where a fella is lugging damaged 19 capacitors full of PCB to the dump. He has to put them on 20 a (inaudible) truck, and they fall over and get all over 21 his pants and shoes. Would you call that exposure? 22 A. That's exposure. And we advise against it. 23 We say (inaudible) if the clothes are contaminated, 24 destroy them. 25 MR. KOTOSKE: Can I strike that? Move to LEXOLDMON007166 969 1 strike all that. 2 THE COURT: Just try to answer the question. 3 MR. KOTOSKE: Is it stricken, Your Honor? 4 THE COURT: It's stricken. 5 Q. (By Mr. Kotoske) How about a situation where 6 a woman -- 7 MR. CARNEY: Your Honor, can we approach the 8 bench? 9 (There was a conference at the bench.) 10 THE COURT: Proceed. 11 Q. (By Mr. Kotoske) I will. I want you to 12 turn, Dr. Kelly, with that to page 21, and I'm going to 13 ask you a series of questions about animal studies. I can 14 help if you need -- 15 A. I've got it here. 16 Q. Okay. The document that we're looking at is 17 dated September 15, 1938, and it's a report to Monsanto 18 Chemical Company by a Cecil K. Drinker, M.D. 19 A. I thought he is a Ph.D., but that's all 20 right. 21 Q. (inaudible) Now, if you'll page through all 22 the way back. You know, I don't want to read through all 23 this. I just want to ask you some questions generally 24 about studies that were done in the late '30s for 25 Monsanto. Have you ever had occasion to read these animal LEXOLDMONOQ7167 970 1 studies? 2 A. Yes, quite often. 3 Q. The questions I want to ask you are these. 4 In part these animal studies relate to a form of PCB. 5 They also relate to other chemicals that were manufactured 6 by Monsanto. 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. These are actuallyanimal studies, are they 9 not? 10 A. Yes, they are. 11 Q. And they were hired to be doneby Monsanto by 12 Dr. Drinker who was then dean and professor of physiology 13 at the Harvard School of Public Health, if you'll look at 14 page 22. 15 A. Yes. But this is going to take a little 16 explanation, Mr. Kotoske. 17 THE COURT: I'll let him explain at some 18 appropriate time. 19 A. Because you have stated there they are hired 20 by Monsanto to do some studies. This is the aftermath of 21 studies that were carried out by Professor Drinker in 1936 22 at the behest of the Halowax Corporation, and this is 23 going to take a little while. Bear with me. 24 Q. (By Mr. Kotoske) You know what, Mr. Kelly, 25 I'm going to try to (inaudible) a little bit. My LEXOLDMON007168 971 1 questions don't go so much to the substance of the report. 2 I'm trying to find out whether they were in Monsanto's 3 files and they were available to you back in the 1930's. 4 That's all I'm (inaudible)? 5 A. They were in Monsanto's files that were 6 available to me, yes. 7 Q. All right. And the other question is did you 8 have a chance to read them? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. This is the type of research 11 information you were trying to collect on toxicity or 12 somebody was trying to collect on toxicity of Monsanto's 13 chemicals? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And frequently used animal studies? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. That's all I want to ask you. 18 A. Fine. 19 Q. Will you turn to page 46? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Do you know what page 46 entitled "Process 22 for the production of aroclors, pyranols," et cetera - 23 This is actually a Monsanto document, is it not? 24 A. Yes, it is. 25 Q. What was the purpose? What was its function? LEXOLDMON007169 972 1 What did Monsanto use it for? 2 A. I don't know. I mean, first of all, just 3 you're confusing me a little bit by jumping to this one 4 from the Drinker studies. Forget about Dr. Drinker? 5 Q. Right. If your lawyer wants to ask you about 6 Drinker, he will ask you. Moving right ahead now. I'm 7 trying to save time is all I'm trying to do. 8 A. I have to be clear to know what you're asking 9 so I can answer you correctly. 10 Q. Yes, sir. 11 (Ms. Carter was replaced by Ms. Pape) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LEXOLDMON007170 973 1 A. It appears that the English plant was going to 2 manufacture PCBs they called Arochlors and Pyranols. That's 3 a heat transfer unit. (Inaudible) Anniston plant in the 4 United States. Our (inaudible) plant, which was in 5 East St. Louis, really, but it's referring to it in this. 6 We'll keep talking about East St. Louis, if you don't mind. 7 I think everybody knows that more than they do Sauget. So it 8 came back and (inaudible) said, this is what they do at these 9 plants. And I think your basis of your question was what was 10 the purpose of 'em. I guess it was to tell people back in 11 England what they did--what he thought they did at Anniston 12 and (inaudible). 13 Q. By the way, in what towns did Monsanto 14 manufacture PCBs--East St. Louis, and where did you say the 15 other plant was? 16 A. Anniston, Alabama. 17 Q. Now, this document contains an entry that I 18 want to ask you about and it's on page 49. Did you have 19 occasion. Dr. Kelly--I guess I should ask you a foundation 20 question--ever to read this document? 21 A. Did I what? 22 Q. Did you ever read this document that we're 23 discussing here? 24 A. Yes, uh-huh. 25 Q. Okay. I'd like to read from page 49. I want LEXOLDMON007171 974 1 you to tell me if I'm reading correctly. This document is 2 entitled hazards, and the specific section I'm going to read 3 from this document is toxicity. And it says, there are many 4 literature references to harmful effects of the type of 5 chloracne resulting from exposure to chlorinated diphenyls, 6 especially in cases where people working with small 7 electrical components have been exposed to fumes of 8 hydrochlorinated Aroclors. Chloracne is sometimes 9 accompanied by gastric troubles and there are, in the 10 literature, the records, liver troubles. There are some 11 trouble of this kind among the production workers at Anniston 12 in the early days of the development of Aroclors. At that 13 time, hydrochlorinated Aroclors were being made from diphenyl 14 which had come from low grade benzene. (Inaudible) continue 15 reading. Now, I need to ask you a couple questions about 16 that. When a chemist uses diphenyl, it's the same as 17 biphenyl? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. So when it's hydrochlorinated diphenyl, we're 20 still talking about PCBs? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. Will you turn to page 51, please, in this 23 document. 24 MR. CARNEY: Your Honor, I think it's very 25 misleading to the jury to stop where he stopped, because the LEXOLDMON007172 975 1 next sentence makes-- 2 MR. KOTOSKE: You know, cross examination 3 (inaudible). 4 THE COURT; I'm gonna overrule your objection. 5 MR. CARNEY; (Inaudible.) I think that makes 6 sense. 7 MR. KOTOSKE: You can (inaudible). 8 THE COURT: Overruled. 9 MR. KOTOSKE: I don't object to (inaudible). 10 THE COURT: I understand. Let's move it. Let's 11 move it. 12 BY MR. KOTOSKE: 13 Q. I want you to--pages 51. Would you please 14 read that second paragraph to yourself? 15 A. To myself? 16 MR. CARNEY: Your Honor-- 17 Q. Yes, quietly. 18 A. I beg your pardon? 19 MR. CARNEY: Never mind. 20 A. I still don't know what-- 21 Q. Read the second paragraph. 22 A. Out loud? 23 Q. To yourself. 24 A. Okay. 25 Q. By the way, in the sentence right before that, LEXOLDMON007173 976 1 it states this document called the Toxicity of Arochlors, and 2 it's by a Robert M. Brown. Did you know him? 3 A. Yes, I did. 4 Q. Was he Chief of Industrial Hygiene Division of 5 Health, Department of Public Welfare, City of St. Louis, 6 Missouri? Was he--did you know him professionally? 7 A. Yes, he was the chief of a one-man division. 8 Q. Here in St. Louis? 9 A. Yes, he was--he was it. He was the industrial 10 hygiene section. 11 Q. And he was--is he the one that has commented 12 on what is about to follow here in this report? That's how I 13 read it. Maybe you read it different. 14 A. Will you repeat that? You lost me on the 15 reading. 16 Q. Is he the fellow that is reporting in the 17 paragraphs right below his name? At least that's how I read 18 it. 19 A. Oh, yes. Yes, he wrote this. 20 Q. Okay. Now, here's what he says about PCBs as 21 stated in that article: Arochlors are a group of chlorinated 22 diphenyls produced by the Monsanto Chemical Company. There 23 is need, therefore, to give warning, for the toxicity of 24 these compounds has been repeatedly demonstrated both from 25 the standpoints of their absorption from the 'higher air' as LEXOLDMONOQ7174 977 1 well as from their effects in producing a serious and 2 disfiguring dermatitis when allowed to remain in contact with 3 the skin. Since these effects have been repeatedly observed, 4 industrial hygienists have taken care to see that the proper 5 controls have been established whenever these products are 6 used. Have I read that correctly? 7 A. You read it correctly. 8 Q. Now, just keep your finger there and I want 9 you to turn back to page 46. Now, keep your finger there. 10 What's the date of this document? I see April, '55. 11 A. Which one? 12 Q. The cover page for this report that we're 13 reading. 14 THE COURT: On page 46? 15 Q. Oh, page 46. The date is April, '55? 16 THE COURT: Is that what you're asking? 17 MR. KOTOSKE: Yeah. 18 A. Okay. April, '55. Now, you want me on 46 or 19 47? 20 Q. That's all I want to know, Doctor. I just 21 wanted to know when this literature was (inaudible), when it 22 was out. Can you turn to page 52. 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. I think you may have answered this and so I 25 don't want to spend a lot of time. But do you see, sir, down LEXOLDMON007175 978 1 in the middle of the page--are you on 52? 2 A. Yes, I am. 3 Q. There is a reference and I'll read it. The 4 St. Louis plant B Arochlors building was rated a toxic 5 department. Is that the East St. Louis PCB plant? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. And it was rated toxic? 8 A. Well, you have to--to understand what rating 9 toxic means. If you--I mean I can't--I think-- 10 THE COURT: We'll let him explain. 11 A. I think the jury would like to know what we 12 mean when we say this. At the East St. Louis plant at that 13 time they had probably 20 different compounds being 14 manufactured, that they allowed people to have--take a shower 15 on company time and be furnished clean clothes every day. 16 That was in the union contract. So if they were off fifteen 17 minutes early or they didn't have a 'police' there to see 18 that they took showers, but it was a well--they (inaudible). 19 So I have never--I had been in the plant--I never saw them 20 wear hats, coat, trousers, rubber shoes. They used their own 21 shoes. They did--they got a change of clothes, but most of 22 the people in the whole plant--now, the plant employed 1,000 23 people, 1,200 people, and there were 15 in the PCB 24 department. So these people got the same underwear, showers, 25 as half the plant did--probably all the plant. Later on--I LEXOLDMON007176 979 1 don't know what time--but all of the people in the plant got 2 company clothing. 3 Q. And it says down here further down in the last 4 sentence, employees in the toxic department are given an 5 annual medical examination and a lung x-ray every three 6 years; is that true? 7 A. That's what it says, but here is our policy. 8 I might--I started it, so let's--I don't know whether--where 9 he got his information, but we gave people examinations on a 10 voluntary basis to all wage (inaudible) employees. We did it 11 by ages. If a man didn't--personally (inaudible) but if an 12 employee was under, I think it was 35 years, he was examined 13 every three years. If he was 45, every two years; and over 14 55 or 50, every year. X-rays depended on whether they were 15 exposed to any dust, but it was a minimum of every three 16 years to find out cancer, find out lung troubles from 17 smoking, bronchitis from smoking, find out any number of 18 conditions. Perhaps that we didn't (inaudible) chemicals 19 unless it were with a dusty situation. 20 MR. KOTOSKE: Your Honor, this would be a 21 convenient place for us to stop the examination. 22 THE COURT: That's fine. Doctor, we're gonna take 23 a lunch break. You can step down momentarily. 24 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, when do you want me to 25 come back? LEXOLDMON007177 980 1 THE COURT: Let's say about 1:20. 2 THE WITNESS: I'll be here. 3 THE COURT: Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, we 4 will take our--you can step down, sir. Thank you. We will 5 take our lunch break at this time. 1:20 we'll reconvene, and 6 see you at that time. Do not discuss the case among 7 yourselves or with others. 8 (Ms. Pape was replaced by Ms. Olliges.) 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LEXOLDMONOQ7178