Document 7Op9nd6mGJ0oN8Jmpa1L9vGRB

^ac-.v'i IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF PENNSYLVANIA Civil ASBESTOS PRODUCTS LIABILITY Action No. LITIGATION (No. VI) MDL 875 .................................................................................. -.............................x UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FIFTH DIVISION DISTRICT OF MINNESOTA x CONWED CORPORATION, Plaintiff, Case No. - against - 5-92-88 UNION CARBIDE CHEMICALS AND PLASTICS COMPANY, INC., (f/k/a UNION CARBIDE CORPORATION), Defendant, - and- UNION CARBIDE CHEMICALS AND COMPANY, INC., (f/k/a UNION CORPORATION), Third-Party PLASTICS CARBIDE Plaintiffs, - against - OWENS-CORNING FIBERGLAS CORPORATION, WALKER JAMAR COMPANY, A.W. KUETTEL, SONS, INC., API, INC. and MacARTHUR COMPANY, Third-Party Defendants. .......................................................................................................................... February 15, 1994 HILTON C. LEWINSOHN Doyle Reporting, Inc. Walter Shapiro. CSi Charles Shapiro CS CERTIFIED STENOTYPE REPORTERS COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRlPTlQr 3B9 Lexington Avenue New York, N Y. 10017 Tel. (212) 067-0220 Fax (2121 206 35. UCAREF00011502 2 February 15, 1994 9:50 a .m. Deposition of Center for Occupational and Environmental Health at Exeter Hospitals, Inc., by HILTON C. LEWINSOHN, taken by Plaintiff, pursuant to notice at the offices of Kelley, Drye & Warren, Esqs., 101 Park Avenue, New York, New York, before Marianne D'Amico, a Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public within and for the State of New York. *** UCAREF00011503 Appearances: 3 KELLEY DRYE & WARREN, ESQS. Attorneys for Union Carbide 101 Park Avenue New York, New York 10178 BY: ALAN J. GERSON, ESQ., - and - of Counsel FOLEY & LARDNER, ESQS. First Wisconsin Center 777 East Wisconsin Avenue Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53202-5367 BY: TREVOR J. WILL, ESQ., of Counsel STITCH, ANGELL, KREIDLER & MUTH, ESQS. Attorneys for Conwed The Crossings, Suite 120 250 Second Avenue South Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401 BY: ROBERT D. BROWNSON, ESQ., - and - of Counsel RUDNICK & WOLFE, ESQS. 203 North La Salle Street Chicago, Illinois 60601-1293 BY: MICHAEL R. GOLDMAN, ESQ., of Counsel UCAREF00011504 Appearances: (Cont'd) 4 Also Present: VIRGINIA M. RUSZCZYK, Legal Assistant Kelley Drye & Warren, Esqs. * * it UCAREF00011505 5 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED by and among the attorneys for the respective parties hereto, that all rights provided by the C.P.L.R., including the right to object to any question except as to the form, or to move to strike any testimony at this examination, are reserved; in addition, the failure to object to any question or to move to strike testimony at this examination shall not be a bar or waiver to make such motion at, and is reserved for, the trial of this action. IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED that the within examination may be sworn to by the witness being examined before a Notary Public other than the Notary Public before whom this examination was begun, but the failure to do so or to return the original of this examination to counsel shall not be deemed a waiver of the rights provided by Rules 3116 and 3117 of the C.P.L.R., and shall be controlled thereby. IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED that the filing and sealing of the original of this examination are waived. ** UCAREF00011506 16 2 HILTON C. LEWINSOHN, 3 having been first duly sworn by a Notary 4 Public of the State of New York (Marianne 5 D'Amico), was examined and testified as 6 follows: 7 EXAMINATION BY 8 MR. BROWNSON:' 9 Q. Dr. Lewinsohn, my name is Bob 10 Brownson, as I told you, and I represent a company 11 called Conwed Corporation, which is the plaintiff 12 in the lawsuit against Union Carbide out in 13 Minnesota, which is now out in Philadelphia, if 14 you can understand that progression. 15 We are here today to take your 16 deposition in connection with that case, and as 17 I'm sure Trevor has told you, or as you probably 18 already know, at the deposition, you've got to 19 answer out loud and audibly. You can't shake your 20 head or mumble or say "uh-huh," because then we 21 have a hard time transcribing it. 22 And, secondly, if you don't 23 understand a question or the question is not clear 24 to you, make sure you tell me that before you 25 answer it, so that we get a record of answers and DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011507 1 Lewinsohn 7 2 and responses to questions that you understood. 3 Is that ine? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And finally, try not to talk when I 6 talk, and I'll try not to talk when you talk, so 7 she just has one person talking at a time. 8 A. Okay. 9 Q. Dr. Lewinsohn, first of all, are you 10 presently employed? 11 A. Yes, I am. 12 Q. where are youemployed? 13 A. The Center for Occupational and 14 Environmental Health abbreviated, COEH, at Exeter 15 Hospital. 16 The address is P.0. Box 1050 and the 17 street address is 108 High Street, in Exeter, New 18 Hampshire. 19 MR. WILL: Off the record. 20 (Discussion off the record) 21 MR. WILL: Back on the record. 22 Q. Do you have a curriculum vitae or 23 resume that we can have? 24 MR. WILL: I'm having it 25 photocopied. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011508 1 Lewinsohn 8 2 MR. BROWNSON: So maybe we can 3 dispense of it. 4 MR. GERSON: It will be here in two 5 minutes. 6 Q. Your full name is Dr. Hilton 7 Lewinsohn? 8 A. Hilton, middle initial is C, for 9 Cecil, Lewinsohn. 10 Q. How long have you been at the Center 11 for Occupational Environmental Health at Exeter, 12 New Hampshire? 13 A. Since November 1992. 14 Q. What sort of institution is that? Is 15 that a teaching hospital or - 16 A. No, the hospital is a community 17 hospital, about 100 beds. 18 And the Center for Occupational 19 Environment Health is a department of the 20 hospital. 21 Q. And how is it that a hundred-bed 22 hospital in Exeter, New Hampshire has a Center for 23 Occupational Health? 24 Is there some plant in the area? How 25 did that come about? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011509 1 Lewins ohn 9 2 A. The center has been there for about 3 eight years, I believe. 4 It started off actually with a 5 nursing program that was set up by a very 6 energetic occupational health nurse in the area, 7 to provide nursing services to local employers in 8 the industry. And it was very successful. They 9 grew. 10 They then got a medical director, and 11 enlarged eventually to get an industrial hygiene 12 services as well, employer assistance program, and 13 it developed into a comprehensive hospital - based 14 occupational health program. 15 It isn't an industrial area per se, 16 but there are some medium sized companies in the 17 area and some subsidiaries of large companies. 18 And we provide on-site medical 19 direction to some of those companies. We provide 20 on-site nursing. 21 We have a clinic where we would see 22 injured employees to preplacement, physical exams, 23 urinal examination for drug screening, that kind 24 of thing. 25 Q. Does the Center for Occupational and DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011510 1 Lewinsohn 10 2 Environmental Health do research as well? 3 A. Oh, no. 4 Q. Or is it treating of patients? 5 A. It's hospital based. It has 6 basically a clinical function. 7 Q. Are you currently doing any research 8 of your own, or have you since you've joined that .9 center? 10 A. No. 11 Q. At the present time, or since 1992, 12 let me put it that way, since 1992, have you been 13 following any group of patients, or have you been 14 continuing any research of any kind that you had 15 done in the past? 16 A. No. 17 Q. And as I understand it, you left 18 Union Carbide in July of 1992, is that correct? 19 A. That is correct. 20 Q. Did you retire at that point? 21 A. It was a retirement, you know, 3 22 retirement package that I was given at the time. 23 as a result of a downsizing that was taking place . 24 at Union Carbide. 25 Q. And I should ask you this. What is DOYLE REPORTING, INC. {212)867-8220 UCAREF00011511 1 Lewinsohn 11 2 your current age? 3 A. 65 . 4 Q. What happened then, as you retired 5 from Union Carbide at, I guess, at the age of 6 about 63? Would that be correct? 7 A. Yes . 8 Q. That was as a result of some 9 corporate downsizing? 10 A. That is correct. 11 Q. Where they were giving early 12 retirement packages to people? 13 You're shaking your head? 14 MR. WILL: You need to say "yes." 15 A. Yes, I'm sorry. 16 THE WITNESS: I thought it was a 17 rhetorical question. 18 MR. WILL: I thought so, too. 19 Q. Let me just ask you one more thing 20 about your current position. 21 Are you seeing any patients or doing 22 any work in the area of pneumoconiosis or 23 asbestosis in particular, or pneumoconiosis in 24 general? 25 A. No. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011512 1 Lewinsohn 12 2 Q. We've been given a copy here of your 3 curriculum vitae, and I'll just have the reporter 4 mark this as Exhibit 1. 5 (Curriculum vitae marked as 6 Lewinsohn Exhibit 1 for identification, as 7 of this date.) 8 Q. I'll show you now what has been 9 marked as Lewinsohn Exhibit 1, and ask you if that 10 is a copy of your current curriculum vitae? 11 A. Yes, it is. 12 Q. And is that complete and up to date 13 as far as you know? 14 A. Yes, as far as I know. 15 Q. It indicates that you're originally 16 from South Africa, is that correct? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. You went to university at 19 Witwatersrand Medical School? 20 A. Well, the correct -- Witwatersrand. 21 Q I was close. 22 And what was the degree that you 23 obtained? 24 A. The degree is MB, BCh. It's the 25 Latin for bachelor of medicine and bachelor of DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011513 Lewinsohn 13 surgery, which is comparable to the M.D. degree in the United States. Q. And you obtained that in 1952? A. Correct. Q. And when did you move from South Africa to England? A. 1956 . Q - You then obtained this diploma in industrial health in 1968? A. Correct. Q- What did you do when you moved to England in '56? Did you have employment or were you in school, or what were you doing? A. No, I worked for a year in a hospital in Kent, Farnborough, Kent, in the chest medicine unit there. And then I went to the London Chest Hospital. And I was at the London Chest Hospital, I believe, as a registrar, which is, I suppose, equivalent to a resident. And then I was a senior registrar and the resident medical officer as the country resident, medical resident assistant physician, I DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011514 Lewinsohn 14 2 forget what the title was. 3 May I just look at this? 4 MR. WILL: Sure. 5 A. Resident assistant physician at the 6 London Chest Hospital, Country Branch. 7 And then I left in '61 to come to the 8 United States. 9 Q- Now, at some point along the way, you 10 were a medical officer at Turner Brothers 11 Asbestos. 12 A. Yes, that wasn't until 1966. 13 Q. So did you go back to Britain then? 14 A. I went to Britain in '63, after being 15 here from '61 to '63, at Albert Einstein College 16 of Medicine. 17 Q. In New York City? 18 A. In New York City. 19 And then from '63 to -- 20 MR. WILL: Wait for him to ask you 21 another question. 22 THE WITNESS: Sorry. 23 Q What did you do in 1963? 24 A. That's when I went to the 25 pneumoconioses medical panel in Manchester, in DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011515 1 Lewinsohn 15 2 England. 3 Q. And that is listed on your CV as 4 "Pneumoconiosis Medical Officer, Ministry of 5 Pensions and National Insurance? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. In Manchester? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. Did you that from '63 to '66? 10 A. Yes . 11 Q. 12 Brothers ? And then in 1966, you came to Turner 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. Is that correct? 15 A. Yes, that's correct. 16 Q. Let me back up and go back to your 17 time in South Africa. 18 You obtained your medical degree in 19 '52, correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And while you were in medical school, 22 in other words, up until 1952, did you see any 23 patients who had been exposed to asbestos? 24 A. I don't remember. 25 Q. And when you obtained that medical DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212;)867- 8220 UCAREF00011516 1 Lewinsohn 16 2 degree in 1952, was that what we would call a. 3 general medical degree, or had, at that point,, you 4 specialized in some area? 5 A. No, that was my general medical 6 qualification. 7 Q. Prom 1952 until you came to England 8 in 1956, what were you doing? 9 A. I had to do a year as an intern in 10 South Africa. That meant you had to do six months 11 internal medicine and six months in surgery. 12 To fulfill that, six months, a house 13 physician at the Chamber of Mines Springkell 14 Sanatorium, which was near Johannesburg, and did 15 six months orthopedics at the Addington Hospital 16 in Durban. 17 I then stayed on at Addington for a 18 further six months as a senior house physician to 19 do some further internal medicine training. 20 And then went back to Johannesburg 21 and worked at a casualty officer in the 22 Johannesburg General Hospital of my teaching 23 hospital for six months. 24 And then, by that time, I felt that I 25 would like to pursue further studies in chest DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011517 1 Lewinsohn 17 2 diseases, and went back to the Chamber of Mines 3 Springkell Center Sanatorium as a resident medical 4 officer for a year. 5 Q. Where was that located? 6 A. That was near Johannesburg. 7 Q; And following your year's- work there, 8 is that when you went to England? 9 A. Then I went to England, yes. 10 Q. Let me ask you then, during the 11 period 1952 to 1956, after you obtained your 12 medical degree, but before you left for England, , 13 during that time period, did you see patients with 14 any asbestos - related disease of one sort or 15 another ? 16 A. I don't remember seeing any. 17 Q. Let me just go through the different 18 things you did one year as an intern. 19 You did six months as intern in 20 medicine, and six months in surgery. 21 In the internal medicine portion of 22 that, what sort of patients would you see? 23 Were they just general patients that . 24 would come into the hospital? 25 A. Yes. I suppose mostly patients with DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011518 Lewinsohn 18 cardiovascular lesions, neurological conditions, you know, the run of the mill general internal medicine patients. Q. Did you see any miners during that period of time? A. Let me just correct something. Are we talking about 1953 now? Q. Yes. I'm talking about your first year as an intern. A. Okay, I'm sorry, let me just correct that. The first year when I was at the six months that I spent at Springkell Sanatorium, that was run by the Chamber of Mines, and in order for a patient to be admitted to that sanatorium, that patient would have to be a miner. Now, these in Johannesburg were gold miners, basically. I don't believe I saw any other miners. During that period of time, I saw many cases of silicosis as a result of mining exposure, and many of those also were complicated with TB. Q. So what you were seeing as an intern DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011519 1 Lewinsohn 19 2 then was gold miners? 3 A. Gold miner. 4 Q. Among those gold miners, you saw some 5 silicosis? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Other than the silicosis, were there 8 any other pulmonary conditions caused by the gold 9 mining that you treated or that you saw? 10 A. I don't know of any other conditions 11 besides silicosis, as I said, complicated by TB. 12 Q. Did you have any understanding at 13 that time, or any knowledge at that time, that 14 there was any cancer among these gold miners of 15 one sort or another that was related to their work 16 in the mines? 17 A. Silicosis was not considered a 18 carcinogen. 19 Q. Were you seeing any lung cancer? 20 A. Yes, I saw lung cancer. But I 21 would -- yes, I saw lung cancer. 5 22 Q. Let's go to your next stint, and that 23 would be in Addington, where you were a senior y 24 house physician for six months? 25 A. I was a -- you skipped the DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011520 1 Lewinsohn 20 2 orthopedic. . 3 Q. I skipped the orthopedic? 4 A. Senior house physician, again, that 5 was a general run of the mill internal medicine 6 ward with heart cases, emphysema, bronchitis, 7 neurological cases, run of the mill stuff. 8 Q. Did you see any pneumoconiosis among 9 patients at that hospital? 10 A. I don't remember seeing any. 11 Q. Were there any miners seen? 12 A. No, not at Addington. 13 Also, unless, of course, somebody had 14 been a miner, but it wasn't specifically set up to 15 see miners. 16 Q. Next you were at Johannesburg as a 17 casualty officer. Would that be an emergency - type 18 situation? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. In that situation, you would see 21 anyone who would come in with injury or disease? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Following that time, you went to back 24 to the Chamber of Mines, 1955. 25 That was in '55? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011521 1 Lewinsohn 21 2 A. I went back to the Chamber of Mines 3 Springkell Sanatorium. 4 Q. That is where you had been earlier? 5 A. That is where I had done six months 6 as a house physician in 1953. 7 Q. Was it at that point in 1955 that you 8 decided to concentrate or specialize in chest 9 diseases ? 10 A. I believe it was. 11 Q. What was it if you can recall that 12 far back that brought you into that specialty? 13 why was it that you decided to 14 specialize there? 15 A. I think that my six months in 1953 16 had interested me in the subject, and that once I 17 had completed my, you know, the further training 18 that I felt I wanted to do, I went back to it. 19 I went back to it and the training 20 process in the British system is somewhat 21 different from here, where you graduate from 22 medical school and then go into an internship and 23 residency program, which turns you out as one form 24 of specialist or another at the end. 25 And whereas, in the British system, DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011522 1 Lewinsohn 22 2 you, I suppose, gravitate to eventually what your 3 interest is, but the early years of training are 4 sort of nonspecific. 5 And that is how I -- so in 1955, I . 6 had decided that I would like to continue to learn 7 more about chest diseases. 8 Q. So if we could summarize your medical 9 training up until 1955, it would be general 10 medical training nonspecific to any specialty, and 11 1955 was when you focused on chest diseases? 12 Is that fair to say? 13 A. That is fair to say, I think, yes. 14 Q. And again, going back to the Chamber 15 of Mines, describe for us exactly what that was. 16 Was this a sanatorium or a hospital 17 which just treated the gold miners or what was 18 that? 19 A. Yes. It's a long time ago, so you 20 must forgive me. I don't remember all about it 21 but - - 22 Q. As best you recall. 23 A. It was owned by the Chamber of Mines, 0 24 as I told you previously. 25 It treated, it admitted patient9 who DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011523 1 Lewinsohn 23 2 either were gold miners or had been, gold miners 3 and were in receipt of a pension from the Chamber 4 of Mines, and treated them for chest diseases. 5 It specialized in chest diseases. 6 The name implies it started off as a sanatorium 7 for the treatment of TB, because one af the major 8 complications of silicosis is pulmonary TB. 9 By 1953, when I went to work there, 10 it was admitting patients with TB, was being 11 treated with the new antibiotics and chemotherapy 12 and was being brought under control and was 13 treatable. 14 People weren't spending three, four, 15 five years of their lives in sanatoriums while on 16 bed rest getting well. They were being treated 17 with drugs and getting out and being discharged. 18 So the bed they had been occupying 19 were available for other sorts of chest cases. So 20 the sanatorium also admitted some cases with heart 21 disease that were operable, and it admitted other 6 22 chest cases with other types of chest conditions 23 for investigation and treatment that were not 24 necessarily silicosis. 25 Q. So you still saw silicosis, I take DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011524 1 Lewinsohn 24 2 it, but you were also seeing other things at that 3 t ime ? 4 A. Yes, we were. 5 Q. Maybe you told us this -- I guess you 6 were there for maybe one year, is that right, or 7 was it more than that? 8 A. In 1953, it was six months, and then 9 1955, '56, was one year. 10 Q. During the time that you were in 11 South Africa until you left for England, you told 12 us earlier, I think, that you hadn't seen any 13 patients during that time who were suffering from 14 any asbestos - related disease. 15 Is that fair to say? 16 A. I don't remember having seen any. 17 Q. And during that period of time, 18 during the entire course of that training going 19 back to your medical degree and then up through 20 '56, had you studied or learned anything about 21 asbestos or other asbestos - related conditions as 22 part of your medical training? 23 A. As part of my medical training, I had 24 heard and been told and taught about asbestos. 25 But I don't recollect having DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011525 1 Lewinsohn 25 2 personally seen a case. 3 Q. And was it your understanding, again, 4 taking you back into those years up until 1956, if 5 you recall, if you don't, just tell me so, in 6 those years, was it your understanding that there 7 was any asbestos occurring or that had occurred in 8 South Africa, or was this something that you 9 studied about occurring in Britain? 10 A. I don't remember, quite honestly, 11 whether I was aware at that time of South Africa 12 as a country with a problem related to asbestos. 13 Q. Let me ask you this: You were aware, 14 of course, that there were various asbestos mines 15 and pits in South Africa, I take it? 16 A. Not necessarily aware of it. 17 Q. Well, then let me rephrase it 18 Until 1956, were you aware of the 19 fact that there was asbestos mining activity in 20 South Africa? 21 A. I can't say I was. 22 Q. But I take it, you never saw any of 23 the workers from those mines during that time? 24 A. I did not. 25 Q. And were you familiar with Dr. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011526 Lewinsohn 26 Wagner, Chris Wagner, before you left South Africa? A. I think I had met Dr. Wagner before I left South Africa. Q. And again, I - 7 A. South Africa. Sorry, let me just 8 say, yes, I had met Dr. Wagner in South Africa. 9 Q. So that would be before 1956 at some 10 point ? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Do you recall in what context you met 13 him in South Africa? 14 A. Yes, I met him while I was at 15 Springkell Sanatorium, and Dr. Wagner was one of 16 the pathologists that used to do autopsies. 17 Q. And again, before you left South 18 Africa, had you heard of the conditions of 19 mesothelioma? 20 A. No. 21 Q. And going back to this meeting or 22 meetings with Dr. Wagner when he was doing 23 pathology for you, did he mention, if you can 24 recall, at any of those meetings that he was 25 looking, or that he was seeing any mesotheliomas DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 - UCAREF00011527 1 Lewinsohn 27 2 in patients? . 3 A. Not that I recall. 4 Q. Do you recall when the first time was 5 that you heard of Dr. Wagner's findings or reports 6 of mesothelioma among South African miners? 7 A. I believe that it was when I was at 8 the London Chest Hospital between 1957 and 1958, 9 that period of time. Maybe even '57 to '59. I 10 can't be precise on the date. 11 When the pathologist at the London 12 Chest Hospital, whose name was Dr. Hinson, told me 13 that he had a meeting with a fellow South African, 14 Dr. Wagner, who had been over to see him to 15 discuss his findings of cases of mesothelioma in 16 asbestos workers in South Africa. 17 Q. Let's just see if I've got this 18 straight. 19 At some point when you were at the 20 London Chest Hospital from '57 to '59, your 21 pathologist, Dr. Hinson, had spoken to Dr. Wagner? 22 Is that correct? 23 A. That is correct. 24 Dr. Hinson was a world-renowned 25 pulmonary pathologist. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011528 1 Lewinsohn 28 2 Q. So you didn't speak to Dr. Wagner 3 directly during this period? 4 A. I did not speak to Dr. Wagner 5 directly. 6 Q. Do you recall what it was that Dr. 7 Hinson reported to you about Dr. Wagner's 8 findings ? 9 A. I don't -- no, I don't recall. 10 Except that, you know, I think he 11 told me about his meetings as a matter of 12 interest, because we were both South Africans. 13 Q. Did you understand from those 14 understandings with Dr. Hinson that Dr. Wagner had 15 found mesothelioma among asbestos miners, or were 16 these factory workers, or do you have any 17 recollection of that? 18 A. No. 19 Q. What you do recall is simply the 20 report to Dr. Hinson that Dr. Wagner had seen 21 mesotheliomas? 22 Would that be fair to say? 23 A. Yes, Dr.Wagner was over to discuss 24 these cases with Dr. Hinson, Dr.' Hinson being an 25 authority on pulmonary pathology. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011529 1 Lewinsohn 29 2 Q. And this, of course, would be before 3 Dr. Wagner published those cases. 4 Would that be fair to say? 5 A. Yes, I don't think the cases were 6 published until 1959. 7 Q. When they were published, did you 8 read Dr. Wagner's paper about the cases? 9 Do you recall that? 10 A. I don't recall reading those cases at 11 that point in time. 12 Q. Do you recall when the first time was 13 that you did read those cases in the published 14 literature? 15 A. I would say, probably not until just 16 either before or at the time just before I left to 17 go back to England in '63, or after getting back 18 to England in '63, and joining the pneumoconiosis 19 medical panel did I do any reading about 20 mesothelioma and Dr. Wagner's cases. 2 1 Q. Now we're jumping ahead a little bit 22 here. 2 3 But at the time that you did read 24 about those, can you remember the context? 25 In other words, was this in DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011530 1 Lewinsohn 30 2 connection with some research you were doing,,or a 3 meeting you were attending, or did you just happen 4 to read about them, or how did that come about? 5 A. No, I was at - - I believe it would be 6 when I joined the Pneumoconiosis Medical Panel in 7 Manchester. 8 And I obviously had to be familiar 9 with, and up to date with all of the latest 10 developments in occupational lung diseases. 11 So, at that time, I read in greater 12 depth about mesothelioma. 13 Q. And that would be just generally in 14 connection with bringing yourself up to date on 15 the various diseases in connection with your work 16 at the pneumoconiosis unit? 17 A. Yes, because part of my role there 18 was diagnosing occupational diseases. 19 Q. Let me now go back to, I think we 20 were in 1956, you left South Africa. 2 1 You went to England and you spent one 22 year in the hospital at Kent, is that correct? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. And while you were at that hospital, 25 I'm just trying to find it here in your CV, let's DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011531 1 Lewinsohn 31 2 see here. 3 Let's go back a little further. 4 Senior house officer, Department of 5 Medicine at Farnborugh, Kent. It said, you were 6 attached to the chest unit, is that correct? 7 A. That is correct. 8 Q. And what sort of conditions were you 9 seeing or treating during that year in Kent? 10 A. This was a TB ward, basically. 11 Q. Were you seeing any pneumoconiosis of 12 any sort at that time? 13 A. Not that I can recollect. . 14 Q. Were there any, you have to pardon my 15 geography of England, but was there any coal 16 mining around Kent? 17 A. No. 18 Q. So that wasn't the coal mining area? 19 A. No . 20 Q. 21 miners? So you weren't seeing any coal 22 A. No. 23 Q. Any mining of any kind that you were 24 seeing, of any kind? 25 A. No. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011532 1 Lewinsohn 32 2 Q. Then you went from '57, or in '57, 3 you went to the Pinewood Hospital in Wokingham in 4 Berkshire, correct? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. What sort of work were you doing 7 there? 8 A. That was a two-month stint as a local 9 tenant. 10 Q. As a what? 11 A. Locum Tenens, just like a temporary 12 job. And that was a TB sanatorium. 13 Q. And did you see any pneumoconiosis 14 there? 15 A. No, I did not. 16 Q. Then you went to the London Chest 17 Hospital in '57, from '57 to '58 as a medical 18 registrar. 19 What did that involve? 20 A. That's equivalent to a resident in 21 the American system. 22 And the London Chest Hospital 23 admitted cases from basically the east end of 24 London, mostly chronic obstructive pulmonary 25 disease, bronchitis, emphysema. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. {212)867-8220 UCAREF00011533 Lewinsohn 33 There was still quite a lot of TB around, lots of cases of lung cancers, and we also did cardiovascular surgery at the London Chest Hospital, so there were various heart diseases there for the treatment. Q. And then during the next year, from '59 to '60, you were the senior registrar at the London Chest Hospital. I take it, that was the same place? A. No, this was at the Country Branch Arlesey, Beds. That -- I was actually the senior physician on the house staff there, and in charge of this hospital, which was again largely TB, where the TB cases from London were sent. The ones that were going to take longer to get better were sent out to the country for, you know, to be treated long term, and also did some surgery out there. Q. During this stint in Britain from '56 to '60, did you learn anything further about asbestosis, other than the knowledge you had gained back in South Africa? A. That's a difficult question to answer, because I don't know how I can say what I DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011534 1 Lewinsohn 34 2 specifically learned at what time. 3 Q. Let me do this. 4 Taking yourself up to the time you 5 left for New York, the period of time you were in 6 England the first time, you say you can't 7 specifically recall if you learned anything 8 further about asbestosis. 9 Would that be fair to say? 10 A. I didn't exactly say that I didn't 11 learn anything further. 12 I said that I couldn't place it 13 within a time frame. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. It's difficult to do that. 16 I know that I knew more about 17 asbestosis by the time I left to come to the 18 United States than I had known when I probably - 19 when I started to work in England. 20 The reason I say that, to answer your 21 question, is that I -- and you'll see that in my 22 resume -- I had a course in advanced medicine at 23 the London Hospital in January '61 to March '61. 24 Q. Let's see, I'm trying to find that. 25 Yes, here it is. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011535 1 Lewinsohn 35 2 A. And I obviously knew something about 3 asbestosis then because I can remember seeing a 4 case, being shown a case in the wards to discuss 5 and being able to discuss. 6 Q. So during your course in advanced 7 medicine in '61, when you say you saw a case, 8 there actually was a patient there with asbestosis 9 or was it - - 10 A. It was a demonstration case by one of 11 the teachers of the course and, you know, the way 12 they teach in medicine is to pull some poor 13 student out the crowd and ask him or her to 14 examine the case and venture a diagnosis. 15 And I was that poor student, so 16 that's how I remember it so well. 17 Q. How was the diagnosis made in that 18 case? 19 Was it on x-ray or was it pathologic? 20 A. It was a clinical diagnosis and then, 21 obviously, history, asking questions, then 22 being -- then being prompted by the teacher, what 23 else would you like to know, and asking for an 24 x-ray, et cetera. 25 Q. Since you were the student who was DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011536 1 Lewinsohn 36 2 pulled out of the crowd for that case, do you_ 3 recall what the clinical history was that was . 4 being given by the patient? 5 A. No, I honestly don't recall that. 6 Q. Do you recall if that patient was a 7 worker in a British asbestos factory? 8 A. No, I don't recall the occupational 9 history. 10 Q. Do you recall what the diagnosis was? 11 A. The diagnosis was asbestosis. 12 And I believe that man also had lung 13 cancer, but I really am taxing my memory. 14 Q. I understand that. We're going back 15 a long ways. 9 16 If you don't understand any of this, 17 tell me so, but I am trying to get what you do 18 recall. 19 A. I do remember that case. 20 Q. Let me stop you there then, as long 21 as we're on the topic of that case. 22 By that point in time, 1961, had you 23 come to learn or understand that there was some . 24 relation between asbestos exposure or asbestosis 25 and lung cancer? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011537 1 Lewinsohn 37 2 A. Yes, I had. 3 Q. And do you recall where you had 4 gained that knowledge? 5 A. I suppose primarily, from the 6 literature. 7 Q. Did you know Dr. Gerrit Schepers at 8 that point? 9 A. No, I never met Dr. Schepers. 10 Q. I take it, you've heard of him in 11 recent years, but I'm wondering, back in those 12 years, had you ever heard of him? 13 A. I heard of Dr. Schepers when I was at 14 Springkell Sanatorium. 15 I believe Dr. Schepers was somehow or 16 other connected with the Chamber of Mines and had 17 some administrative responsibilities for the 18 miners that we admitted to the sanatorium for the 19 administration of their benefits and that sort of 20 thing. 21 Q. Let me take you back to the patient 22 with the asbestosis which you were plucked out of 23 the crowd to discuss in 1961. 24 Was it you who that made the 25 diagnosis of asbestosis, or had that diagnosis DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867,8220 UCAREF00011538 1 Lewinsohn 38 2 previously been made by someone else and they were 3 testing you to see if you could get it correct? 4 A. This was a documented case of 5 asbestosis that was probably admitted for that day 6 and paid to come in, just to be a case for the 7 students to examine and talk about. 8 Q. And did the patient have lung cancer 9 at the time that this discussion took place on the 10 date when he came in? 11 A. I believe he did. 12 Q. And did you have any understanding at 13 that point that that patient's lung cancer was 14 related to his asbestos exposure? 15 A. I knew at that time that there was an 16 association between lung cancer and the disease 17 asbestosis. 18 Q. And did you understand at that time 19 that if a person had asbestosis, that there was an 20 increased risk or increased probability that he 21 could get lung cancer as a result of that? 22 A. I think that's what I just said. 23 Q. Was it also your understanding at 24 that time that an asbestos - exposed individual 25 needed to have clinical asbestosis before there DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011539 1 Lewinsohn 39 2 was an increased probability risk of him getting 3 lung cancer, if you recall? 4 MR. GERSON: Could you repeat the 5 question? 6 A. I think you're asking - 7 MR. BROWNSON: I better ask her to 8 repeat it, so I can get it accurately. 9 (Record read) 10 MR. WILL: I think you need to 11 rephrase it. 12 A. I think you need to rephrase it. 13 MR. BROWNSON: If you want to take a 14 break at any time, just tell me and we'll 15 do so. 16 Let me rephrase that question. 17 Q. What I was getting at is, taking 18 yourself back to that case in 1961, at that point 19 in time, if you recall, did you have any 20 understanding that an asbestos-induced or an 21 asbestos - related lung cancer could be found in a 22 patient who did not have asbestosis? 23 A. At that time, I believe it was 24 generally held that it was a prerequisite for 25 asbestosis to be present in order for the lung DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011540 I 10 . 1 Lewinsohn 40 2 cancer to be considered related. 3 Q. And if you can recall, what was the 4 clinical definition of asbestosis at that time? 5 A. I can't recall. 6 Q. Let me ask you this: Was the 7 diagnosis of asbestosis at that time, in 1961, 8 made based upon an x-ray? 9 A. The diagnosis of asbestosis, as far 10 as I'm concerned, is never made on the basis of 11 any single finding. 12 Q. What were the diagnostic criteria at 13 that time, if you can recall? 14 A. The clinical criteria were symptoms 15 of breathlessness, shortness of breath, aggressive 16 shortness of breath, the presence of fine 17 crepitant rales, usually at the lung base and 18 extending up to the aveoli which did not disappear 19 on coughing, mainly the inspiratory phase of 20 respiration, with or without the presence of 21 clubbing of the fingers and toes. 22 And with radiological appearances 23 which, in those days, one referred to as -- I'm 2 4 trying to think of the term - - 25 Q. Shadows? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011541 1 Lewinsohn 41 2 A. No, I'm crying to chink of the 3 terminology, it's gone for the moment, a shaggy 4 heart border on the x-ray, and lower zone 5 infiltrates. 6 I guess that is as close as I can 7 get. 8 That, I would say, would be the 9 diagnosis was made on those clinical criteria. 10 Q. And the lower zone infiltrates on the 11 x-ray, that would be some actual visible fibrosis 12 on the x-ray? 13 A. Yes, I didn't call it fibrosis, but 14 that is what it would be, yes. 15 Q. Was it required at that time, as part 16 of the diagnostic criteria, that this lower zone 17 infiltrates or fibrosis be bilateral? 18 A. Oh, yes. Usually bilateral. 19 Q. And let me ask you this: Was the 20 rales a required part of the criteria; in other 21 words, if that was not present, the diagnosis 22 could not be made, or how did that work? 23 A. Well, for a c/ linician to make a 24 diagnosis of pulmonary fibrosis, which is what 25 asbestosis is, in those days, when the stethoscope DOYLE REPORTING, INC. {212)867-8220 UCAREF00011542 Lewinsohn 42 was still very much respected as a diagnostic instrument, the presence of bilateral found crepitant rales was one of the essentials of making a diagnosis. Q. Clubbing was not, in other words, 7 clubbing was something that was looked for, but 8 not essential? 9 A. Clubbing was the not a pathopneumonic 10 of asbestosis, but it often was found in 11 conjunction with it. 12 Q. And do you remember if this 13 particular individual had any clubbing of the 14 fingers ? 15 A. Yes, this particular individual did 16 have clubbing of the fingers. 17 Q. Was this the first actual case of 18 asbestosis you had seen, as you think back on it? 19 A. Probably. That is probably why I 20 remember it so clearly. 21 Q. At least it sticks out in your mind 22 because you were plucked from the crowd to discuss 23 it? 24 A. It does. 25 Q. Again, let me take you back to that DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011543 1 Lewinsohn 43 2 time, 1961. 3 You mentioned that you were familiar 4 with the association of the lung cancer and 5 asbestosis at that time. 6 Do you remember what literature or 7 reports you had read up to that time on that topic 8 of lung cancer and asbestosis? 9 A. I think the report that I that I knew 10 about was the work of Richard Doll, which had been 11 published in 1955, in fact, where he showed 12 increased incidents in excess of lung cancer in 13 asbestos textile work as had been exposed for a 14 long period of time and eventually asbestosis. 15 A. I need to take a break. 16 Q. Sure. 17 (Recess taken.) 18 BY MR. BROWNSON: 19 Q. Dr. Lewinsohn, we were talking about 20 1961 in this asbestosis case that you were 21 reviewing in London. 22 And I think the last question and 23 answer was that this was, as you recalled it, the 24 first asbestosis case that you had seen, as you 25 sit here today and think back on it. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011544 1 Lewinsohn 44 2 Would that be fair to say? 3 A. That's fair to say, yes. 4 Q. Now at the time you saw this case in 5 1961, as I understand it, you were aware of the 6 work of Dr. Wagner and the mesothelioma, at least 7 from your conversations with the pathologist, is 8 it Hinson? 9 A. Hinson, yes. 10 Q. Right. 11 But as I understand it, you had not 12 actually read Dr. Wagner's paper at that time. 13 Would that the be fair to say? 14 A. Not that I can remember. 15 Q. But you had read Sir Richard Doll's 16 paper about the asbestos textile workers and lung 17 cancers? 18 A. I was aware of that, yes. I had read 19 it. 20 Q. That's what I wasn't clear on, if you 21 had actually read his paper at that time, or had 22 just heard about it? 23 A. That's difficult to say whether I 24 read about it or heard about it, but -- I knew 25 about it. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011545 1 Lewinsohn 45 2 Q. You, of course, were familiar with 3 Dr. Richard Doll, knew who he was and such? 4 A. Yes, knew who Richard Doll was 5 because of his work on smoking and cancer. 6 Q. I shouldn't say "Dr." 7 A. He was, at that time. Dr. Richard 8 Doll. He wasn't knighted until later. 9 Q. Before the "Sir." 10 A. Right. 11 Q. Would it be fair to say that, by 12 1961, when you saw this asbestosis patient, it was 13 commonly held in, at least where you sat in 14 England, that lung cancer could be related to 15 asbestosis? 16 A. Could you just repeat that? Sorry. 17 Q. As of 1961, when you saw this 18 asbestosis patient, would it be fair to say that 19 it was commonly held in the medical community that 20 lung cancer could be related to asbestosis? 21 MR. WILL: Bob, I don't know if you 22 have established that he has a basis for 23 all of this, but he can go ahead, subject 24 to that objection. 25 MR. BR0WNS0N: That's why I am DOYLE REPORTING, INC. {212)867-8220 UCAREF00011546 1 Lewinsohn 46 2 asking. 3 A. My answer to that would be that 4 asbestosis was probably not a very common disease 5 which most of the medical community would have 6 been familiar with. 7 But that those people specializing in 8 chest diseases would have known about. 9 Q. When you say it was not a common 10 disease, in the year 1961, would that be 11 because -- strike that. 12 Would it be fair to say that 13 asbestosis was never a common disease in England? 14 A. I suppose that if you put asbestosis 15 in relationship to something like bronchitis and 16 emphysema, that which would have been the common 17 chest disease in England, it was a relatively - 18 it was a relatively small proportion of cases that 19 chest physicians would see. 20 Q. And as of 1961, did you have any 21 understanding, or had you gained any understanding 22 of the latency period between exposure to asbestos 23 and any onset of lung cancer? 24 A. No, because in 1961, you know, I. 25 really wasn't studying in any great depth the DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011547 1 Lewinsohn 47 2 diseases of occupations, although I was interested 3 in them. 4 Q. Did you have any understanding, in 5 1961, that with the -- how would I put this - 6 with the demise of TB and with the factory 7 regulations in England, that there was an increase 8 of the tumors or cancer seen among 9 asbestos - exposed individuals because they were 10 living longer? 11 A. That is a formative period in my 12 career, and I was probably learning about things. 13 And where at this moment in time, I 14 can't recollect what my precise knowledge was, I 15 can't answer that question. 16 Q. Did there come a time when you gained 17 an understanding along those lines? 18 A. Did there come a time? 19 Q. Right. 20 A. When I gained anunderstanding that? 21 Q. Well, I don'twant to rephrase that 22 whole question, but the point I'm trying to get at 23 was, did you gain an understanding at some point 24 in time that tumors or cancers were showing up 25 among asbestos-exposed individuals in large part DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011548 1 Lewinsohn 48 2 because the serious pulmonary diseases had been 3 taken care of to some extent, so these patients 4 were living longer and tumors were starting to be 5 seen at later points in their life? 6 A. I don't know where you get that 7 information from, but that's never been part of my '8 thinking. 9 Q. Well, I get it from reading some of 10 the early literature in England where statements 11 are made to the effect that, in the early days, 12 particularly before the British factory 13 regulations in 1931 and such, and even after that, 14 that there were the heavy exposures and people 15 were getting serious pulmonary diseases and dying 16 of these diseases. 17 And in the later years, as those 18 things were brought more under control, these 19 people were living longer and they were starting 20 to see the cancers appear. 21 A. Okay. 22 I think what threw me in your 23 question was your general terminology of people. 24 What I would say is that - 25 Q. What I mean to say is asbestos DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011549 1 Lewinsohn 49 2 workers. 3 A. If you were to say asbestos workers, 4 then, yes, I believe there came a point in time 5 when it was my feeling that as the severity of 6 asbestosis decreased and, in fact, the incidents 7 of asbestosis declined, there was a greater 8 opportunity for the development subsequently of 9 tumors in those individuals who had survived 10 beyond the time span that they would have survived 11 in the earlier days. 12 Q. That's the point I was trying to 13 make . 14 Do you remember when you gained that 15 understanding? 16 A. I would say that some time in between 17 joining the Pneumoconiosis Medical Panel and going 18 to work at Turner Brothers Asbestos in Rochdale. 19 Q. Again, among people in the field, 20 that would be people, I guess chest physicians who 21 dealt with occupational diseases, was this a view 22 that was held in the field during those years, . 23 early sixties up until the time you started with 24 Turner Brothers in, I guess, '66? 25 A. I don't think that the run of the DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011550 1 Lewinsohn 50 2 mill physician in the field was terribly concerned 3 with those issues, particularly clinicians. 4 I think that these were issues that 5 were being considered by the epidemiologists, 6 people doing research into the manifestation, 7 incidents and development of disease. 8 Q. And among the people doing the 9 research at that time, in the early or by the 10 early sixties, was certainly Sir Richard Doll was 11 involved in that field? 12 Would that be fair to say? 13 A. I would say Sir RichardDoll was 14 certainly involved in that field. 15 Q. Who else in England, during those 16 times, early 1960s, were involved in that field? 17 A. well, I think there were people in 18 government, in the -- 19 Q. Factory inspector? 20 A. The factory inspector. 21 I believe that people at the Medical 22 Research Council in Penart, in Wales, could have 23 been -- were involved, like Dr. Gilson. 24 I think that Dr. Wagner was, by that 25 time, working in England as well. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011551 1 Lewinsohn 51 2 So those were some of the people that 3 I could think of. 4 Q. How about Dr. Timbrell, was he 5 involved in that? 6 A. Well, I can't speak for Dr. Timbrell. 7 I don't know when he became involved. 9 Q. How about Dr. Robert Murray, do you 9 know if he was involved with the factory 10 inspectorate in those years, in the early sixties? 11 A. Again, I didn't know Dr. Robert 12 Murray in that period of time, in 1961. 13 In fact, I did not meet Dr. Robert 14 Murray until I went to Turner Brothers, which was 15 my first meeting with him. 16 I would say that anybody working for 17 the factory inspectorate suddenly was aware of the 18 asbestos-related diseases and of the epidemiology, 19 because they would acquire that knowledge as part 20 of their job. 21 Q. Would it also be fair to say that, as 22 of the early 1960s, before you went to Turner 23 Brothers, that anyone dealing within the area of 24 pneumoconiosis would be familiar with the work of 25 Sir Richard Doll and the work of the factory DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011552 1 Lewinsohn 52 2 inspectorate, Dr. Meriwether? 3 MR. WILL: Can you be a little more 4 specific as to what time you are talking 5 about ? 6 Are you talking about in the United 7 States, at Albert Einstein? 8 MR. BROWNSON: Let me back up. 9 Q. Let me take you back to 1961, when we 10 were talking a little while ago about that 11 asbestosis. 12 Did you understand that there was a 13 factory inspectorate at that time? 14 A. I knew there was a factory 15 inspectorate, yes. 16 Q. Were you familiar with the literature 17 coming out of the factory inspectorateby that 18 time, 1961, dealing with the asbestos textile 19 factories in England? 20 A. No. 21 Q. When was the first time that you 22 became familiar with that literature? 23 A. Probably not until the period of time 24 that I was either with the Pneumoconiosis Medical 25 Panel, or shortly after I went to Turner Brothers. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011553 1 Lewinsohn 53 2 Q. Just so we can put a date on it, when 3 had you started at the Pneumoconiosis Panel, in 4 ' 63 ? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. So at that point, in the 1963 to '66 7 time period, you became familiar with that work? 8 A. Well, '63 and onwards, even maybe 9 after '66, when I went to Turner Brothers, but I 10 can't place a - 11 Q. Let me ask you this: When you began 12 in the Pneumoconiosis Panel, you told us that it 13 was at that point that you read, for example, Dr. 14 Wagner's paper about the mesotheliomas. 15 Is that correct? 16 A. When I went to the Pneumoconiosis 17 Medical Panel, I had to familiarize myself with 18 mesothelioma and other occupational lung diseases. 19 Q. Of course, you already knew about 20 asbestosis at that time? 21 A. I knew about asbestosis. 22 Q. Do you recall if, at that time when 23 you started at the Pneumoconiosis Panel, that you 24 read, for instance, the papers by Dr. Meriwether 25 dealing with the asbestos workers? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011554 1 Lewinsohn 54 2 A. No, I did not read Dr. Meriwether's 3 paper at the time I was with the Pneumoconiosis 4 Medical Panel. 5 Q. When you began at the Pneumoconiosis 6 Medical Panel in 1963, did you -- strike that. 7 As I understand it, the purpose of 8 that panel was to - - I don't know what the proper 9 word was -- was to qualify or rate people for 10 pensions? 11 Is that fair to say? Disability 12 pensions. ' 13 A. The Pneumoconiosis Medical Panel had 14 a number of functions, one of which was to 15 medically evaluate persons claiming industrial 16 injuries benefits for pneumoconiosis, and to make 17 a diagnosis. 18 And after making a diagnosis, to give 19 an estimate of the degree of impairment, so that 20 these people would then receive a pension based 2 1 upon that medical opinion. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. That was one of our functions. 24 Q. When you were on the panel from '63 25 to '66, were you actually engaged as a physician DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011555 1 Lewinsohn 55 2 during that work, or were you on some sort of 3 administrative task? 4 A. No, that was my role. 5 Q. And there - - 6 A. There were five of us doing that. 7 Q. And the five of you who did that, was 8 that just in the Manchester office or would that 9 be throughout the country? 10 A. No, we worked in the region that the 11 office covered. 12 It was a regional office and it took 13 us into most of Lancashire, work parts of 14 Yorkshire-Bersk Bershire, and parts of Northern 15 Ireland. 16 Q. So there were five of these medical 17 officers on the regional panel, and you were one 18 of the five? 19 A. And one of whom was the, I guess, the 20 senior medical officer who had responsibility for 21 the administration of the medical aspects of the 22 panel's work. 23 Q. During those three years that you 24 were a medical officer in the Pneumoconiosis 25 Panel, I assume you saw, for instance, coal DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011556 1 Lewinsohn 56 2 miners? 3 A. Yes. ,, 4 Q. And did you also see any asbestos 5 workers during that three-year period? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Were these asbestos worke-rs who you 8 saw out of some particular plant or facilities, or 9 were they just kind of a helter-skelter group of 10 people? 11 Let me put it another way. 12 Within your region, were there 13 certain asbestos plants or facilities out of which 14 you saw workers making claims for benefits? 15 A. Yes, there were. 16 Q. What were those plants or facilities 17 that were in your region? 18 A. There was the Turner Brothers 19 Asbestos Company Limited, which had two plants. 20 There was another Turner York 21 Company. 22 Turner Asbestos Cement, which had, if 23 I recall correctly, two plants. 24 There was a company called Small & 25 Parkes, which made brake linings. I think they DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011557 1 Lewinsohn 57 2 were a Cape Asbestos subsidiary. 3 There was, in addition, a shipyard in 4 a town called Barrow -In-Furnass, up in 5 Bedfordshire, where we used to see cases. 6 That's probably enough. There were 7 some others 8 Q. Let me, before we get into that, 9 let's back up a minute. 10 When you went to the United States, 11 as I understand it, from '62 to '63, you were in 12 the United States? 13 A. '61 to ' 63 . 14 Q. '61 to ' 63? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And were you at Albert Einstein 17 College for that two -year period? 18 A. I did a residency at the Bronx 19 Municipal Hospital Center, which is the teaching 20 center for Albert Einstein. I was on a residency 21 in pulmonary diseases. 22 Then I had a fellowship in 23 cardiopulmonary physiology at Albert Einstein. 24 Q. During that time period, did you see 25 any asbestos - related disease in the Bronx or at DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011558 1 Lewinsohn 58 2 Einstein? 3 A. I don't remember seeing that. 4 Q. I suppose I should ask you, although 5 I think I know the answer to this, did you ever 6 meet Dr. Selikoff during those years? 7. A. 1961 to '63? 8 Q. To '63 . 9 A. No, I did not. 10 Q. Let's go back when you were on the 11 Pneumoconiosis Panel from '63 to '66. 12 You mentioned that you saw workers 13 from Turner Brothers and, as I understand it, 14 Turner Brothers had two plants in your region? 15 A. Two plants, yes. 16 Q. And which two plants were those? 17 A. There was the Rochdale factory and 18 there was one at a factory called Hindley Green 19 near Wigan in Lancashire. 20 Q. Was the Rochdale factory still in 21 operation during those years? 22 A. Oh, yes. 23 Q. When had that factory begun, as you .V 24 had understood it? 25 A. Well, it had started its life as a DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011559 1 Lewinsohn 59 2 cotton mill, and I believe after the turn of the 3 century, the first asbestos was brought to 4 Rochdale. 5 Q. Do you know -- again, I don't want to 6 dwell on these early years, but in the early years 7 of the Rochdale plant, what it it was using the 8 asbestos for? 9 A. It was using it for textile. It was 10 a textile plants. 11 Q. Was it a textile plant throughout the 12 year, or did they get into other products? 13 A. Well, it was always atextile plant, 14 but they did have other products there as well. 15 Q. So let's go up through the year 1963, 16 when you were on the Pneumoconiosis Panel. 17 Were they still making asbestos 18 textiles at Rochdale? 19 A. Yes, they were. 20 Q. And in addition to that, by 1963, 21 were they making any other products, other than 22 the textiles at Rochdale? 23 A. Yes, they were. 24 Q. What was that? 25 A. They had variousrubber composite DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011560 1 Lewinsohn 60 2 products that they were making. 3 Q. What would these be like sheet goods? 4 A. Rubber sheeting, Hindley Green -- I'm 5 sorry, Rochdale, sheeting. 6 I don't remember precisely, but there 7 was a rubber department. 8 Q. And during the time you were on the 9 Pneumoconiosis Panel from '61 to '63, did you ever 10 visit the Rochdale plant? 11 A. No. When I was on the panel? 12 Q. When you were on the panel. 13 A. Yes, it was part of my job. 14 Q. During that time period '61 to '63, 15 did you see or did you examine workers from the 16 Rochdale plant as part of your duties on this 17 Pneumoconiosis Panel? 18 . A. Yes. Part of our duties on the panel 19 was to do initial and periodic examinations of 20 workers in certain industries to qualify them 21 medically for working in those industries. 22 And then, you know, so we could see 23 them initially, and then follow them periodically 24 to see that they were still qualified over the 25 time that they were getting ill. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011561 . W 1 Lewinsohn 61 2 Q. So I had asked you initially about 3 this business of seeing patients for purposes of 4 determining medical pensions. 5 But in addition to that, as I 6 understand it, you also gave them qualifying 7 scales and periodic scales? 8 A. That was a statutory requirement. 9 Q. When you would do that for the 10 workers at Turner Brothers and Rochdale, would you 11 go to Rochdale and do it at the plant or was there 12 a hospital there? 13 A. Yes. 14 The regulations require that the 15 employer make available the necessary 16 accommodation, and Rochdale had a very well 17 equipped medical facility on-site. 18 Q. Right at the plant? 19 A. At the plant. 20 Q. As I understand the physical exams 21 that you would do for the workers at Rochdale from 22 '61 to '63, if a new worker was hired, they had to 23 have a qualifying exam before they began. 2 4 Is that correct? 25 A. It had to be done within, I believe, DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011562 1 Lewinsohn 62 2 three months of hire. 3 Q. What did that exam consist of, this 4 qualifying exam? 5 A. It was a physical -- a history, usual 6 medical and occupational history, and then a 7 physical examination. 8 Q. And was there anything in a person's 9 medical history that would disqualify them for 10 work at Rochdale during those years? 11 A. I believe we had certain criteria. I 12 can't remember exactly what they were. 13 For example, active TB, presence of 14 . preexisting pneumoconiosis, some of these people 15 had been coal miners, worked in other industries, 16 but preexisting pneumoconiosis, severe chronic 17 lung disease. 18 Q. I'm curious. Were you still seeing 19 active TB in '61 to '63? 20 A. Certainly. 21 MR. WILL: I think he misspoke. I 22 think you meant '63 to '66? 23 MR. BROWNSON: '63 to '66 is what I 24 meant to say. 25 THE WITNESS: Yes. DOYLE REPORTING, INC 212)867-8220 UCAREF00011563 1 Lewinsohn 63 2 A. Not frequently but yes. 3 Q. So would it be fair to say that the 4 British factory regulations from '63 to '66 5 required the qualifying exam to work in an 6 asbestos textile plant? 7 A. The silicosis and asbestosis medical 8 arrangement scheme of 1931 required that the 9 Pneumoconiosis Medical Panel examine workers in 10 certain industries to determine their suitability 11 for employment in those industries. 12 Q. And one of those industries would be 13 asbestos textile? 14 A. As best -- well -- 15 Q. Or asbestos generally? 16 A. Well, it was -- there were the 17 regulations for asbestos were the asbestos 18 industry regulations of 1931, and there were 19 certain criteria established under those 20 regulations to determine where they were 21 applicable. 22 And wherever those regulations were 23 applicable, the panels were required to provide 24 these examinations. 25 Q. So as of '63 to '66, it was the 1931 DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011564 1 Lewinsohn 64 2 regulations that were still in effect? 3 A. That is correct. . 4 Q. And those regulations applied to the 5 Turner Brothers Rochdale textile plants? 6 A. They did. 7 Q. And did they apply because asbestos 8 was being used there, or did they apply for other 9 reasons as well? 10 A. No, the asbestos regulations industry 11 applied because of the use of asbestos. 12 Q. Were there other 13 pneumoconiosis-producing dusts or regulated dusts 14 in that plant from '63 to '66 other than asbestos? 15 A. No. 16 Q. You mentionedthat, early on, that 17 had started its life as a cotton mill. 18 When did that end? Do you know? 19 A. Oh, I would say, probably before the 20 first World War, maybe earlier. 21 Q. So from 1931, at the time the factory 22 regulations went into effect, up until 1966, when 23 you joined Turner Brothers, would the regulated 24 dust or the pneumoconiosis-producing dust at 25 Rochdale have been asbestos? ' DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011565 1 Lewinsohn 65 2 A. Yes, it would have. 3 Q. Were there any other, than the 4 asbestos, during those years? 5 A. No. 6 Q. In addition to thisinitial 7 qualifying exam, if I can call it that, were 8 periodic scales also required of the men at 9 Rochdale when you were on the Pneumoconiosis Panel 10 f rom '63 to '66 ? 11 A. Men and women, yes. 12 Q. What was the requirement for the 13 periodic exams? 14 A. The statutory requirement was that 15 they had to be conducted periodically at least 16 every two years. 17 Q. And again, would that be the same 18 sort of examination or clinical pulmonary 19 examination? 20 A. Yes, it was basically limited to an 21 examination of the heart and lungs of the chest 22 and a history. 23 Q. And would that include x-rays? 24 A. X-ray was not a requirement, but if 25 the examining physician wanted an x-ray, he could DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011566 1 Lewinsohn 66 2 ask for one. 3 Q. And during the years you were on the 4 Pneumoconiosis Panel, from '63 to '66, did you ask 5 for x-rays for any of the Rochdale workers? 6 A. I didn't have to, because at 7 Rochdale, they had their own medical surveillance 8 medical program running concurrently, and their 9 physician would examine their employees every two 10 years as well. 11 So that they would examine in the 12 intercurrent years between the two years required 13 by the panel and then the company's requirements. 14 And they were all x-rayed, and when 15 we went out as representing the panel to do these 16 exams, we were provided with their x-rays. 17 Q. So - - 18 A. So atthat particularfacility, we 19 did not have to request x-rays. They were given 20 to us. 21 Q. So atthe Rochdale plant forTurner 22 Brothers, Turner Brothers would do medical exams 23 every two years and they would take an x-ray as 24 part of that exam? 25 A. Right. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011567 1 Lewinsohn 67 2 Q. And then you would come in on the odd 3 year? 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. And do your own exam, correct? 6 A. Yes . 7 Q. So these men and woman actually were 16 8 seen once a year, one year by you and the next 9 year by Turner Brothers? 10 A. That's correct, unless either the 11 panel or the Turner Brothers physician wanted that 12 frequency increased. 13 Q. And did the frequency of exams have 14 anything to do with the type of work that the 15 workers were doing, or did it apply equally to all 16 of the workers in the plant? 17 A. It applied equally to all of the 18 employees who were in what we would call the 19 scheduled areas. Those were the areas where the 20 asbestos industry regulations of 1931 apply. 21 Q. And the x-rays that were taken then 22 of the Rochdale workers were taken by the Turner 23 Brothers medical staff, and then when you would 24 come in for your bi-annual reviews on the 25 Pneumoconiosis Panel, you would request the most DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011568 1 Lewinsohn 68 2 recent x-ray for the workers, is that correct? 3 A. We were given the package. 4 Q. So this would - 5 A. We didn't have to request at 6 Rochdale. 7 Q. Would the package then include all of 8 the x-rays that had been taken? 9 A. All of the serial x-rays that had 10 been taken. 11 Q. And what was it, or what criteria 12 were there on these periodic exams that you did on 13 the Pneumoconiosis Panel that could disqualify a 14 worker from working in the plants? 15 A. Well, some, I already mentioned to 16 you. 17 The presence of TB or development of 18 other chest diseases, et cetera, that, in our 19 opinion, made these people appear to be more 20 susceptible to the development of asbestosis, or 21 perhaps if not more susceptible, because they were 22 already compromised more severely should they 23 develop any of these diseases. 24 We were also looking for the clinical 25 findings that were associated with asbestosis. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011569 1 Lewinsohn 69 2 And we took the finding of the basal crepitant 3 rales as being extremely significant, even in the 4 absence of clear-cut radiological findings. 5 Q. So would it be fair to say that 6 during those years, from '63 to '66, when you were 7 on the Pneumoconiosis Panel, that when: you were a looking at workers from the Turner Brothers 9 Rochdale plant, a determinant factor in 10 determining whether that worker had asbestosis was 11 whether there was basal crepitant rales? 12 A. That was a significant factor, yes, 13 not the only one, but a significant one. 14 Q. And in the absence of basal crepitant 15 rales during those years from '63 to '66, could 16 you make or did you make a diagnosis of 17 asbestosis? 18 A. We would probably have beenreluctant 19 to do so. 20 Q. Do you recall ever making a diagnosis 21 of asbestosis during those years for any of the 22 Rochdale workers who did not have basal crepitant 23 rales? 24 A. I don't recollect. 25 Q. Let me ask you this: Was the DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011570 1 Lewinsohn 70 2 presence of basal crepitant rales a criteria, for 3 disqualifying a worker from working in the 4 scheduled areas from '63 to '66? 5 A. Not just -- I think I said earlier 6 on, one criteria would not have been sufficient. 7 The Pneumoconiosis Panel looked for a 8 number of criteria and a combination of any two 9 would have been sufficient. 10 And those included basal rales, 11 radiological appearances, an occupational history 12 of exposure, adequate occupational history of 13 exposure. 14 Q. So if you had any two of those three 15 criteria, that would disqualify you from working? 16 A. That would usually be sufficient to 17 consider a diagnosis of asbestosis. 18 And if you had made a diagnosis of 19 asbestosis, then we had the right to suspend an 20 employee from further employment in that 21 particular occupation where he was considered to 22 be -- where he continued to be exposed. 23 Q. From '63 to '66, when you were on the 24 pneumoconiosis unit, did you, Dr. Lewinsohn, 25 suspend or ask that any workers be suspended at DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011571 1 Lewinsohn 71 2 the Rochdale plant because of a diagnosis of; 3 asbestosis? 4 A. To the best of my recollection, I 5 did. 6 That was usually a decision made by 7 two physicians, not simply by one. 17 8 Q. Two physicians on the Pneumoconiosis 9 Panel? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Would all five of you on the panel. 12 from '63 to ' 66, go to Rochdale , or were there 13 just certain ones who would? 14 A. No, we all rotated through Rochdale. 15 Q. And in the three years that you were 16 on the panel, from '63 to '66, can you tell me how 17 many workers the Pneumoconiosis Panel suspended 18 from work at Rochdale because of asbestosis? 19 A. No, I can't tell you that. I don't 20 remember. 21 Q. But do you recall at least personally 22 doing that on one or more than one occasions? 23 A. I do, yes. 24 Q. And if you had to estimate the number 25 of workers who were suspended by the DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011572 1 Lewinsohn 72 2 Pneumoconiosis Panel from '63 to '66, can you give 3 me any ballpark estimate of how many that would 4 be? 5 MR. WILL: Excuse me, Bob. 6 He would know how many he 7 participated in, but not necessarily if 8 some other panel went to the plant and he 9 wasn't involved. 10 MR. BROWNSON: Let me rephrase the 11 question. 12 Q. Do you know how many workers, can you 13 estimate for us how many workers you suspended, or 14 a panel that you were a part of suspended from the 15 Rochdale plants from '63 to '66? 16 A. Probably not more than one or two. 17 Q. And do you know if there were other 18 workers suspended during those years by other 19 members of the Pneumoconiosis Panel at Rochdale? 20 A. I can't say that I know that. 21 I can say that there probably were. 22 Q. Let me talk about these workers that 23 you do recall suspending from the work in the 24 scheduled areas from Rochdale when you were on the 25 Pneumoconiosis Panel. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011573 1 Lewinsohn 73 2 I take it that these workers were 3 suspended because a diagnosis of asbestosis was 4 made in those workers, is that right? 5 A. I can't get into that depth of, you 6 know, reasoning. 7 I just don't know, at this moment in 8 time, why they were suspended, but there were a 9 number of reasons why they could have been 10 suspended, and that's the best answer I can give 11 you. 12 Either they may have had asbestosis 13 or been - - had criteria consistent with the 14 diagnosis of asbestosis. 15 They may have been suspended for 16 other reasons. In other words, other physical 17 reasons which we considered made them more 18 susceptible. 19 Q. During the years '63 to '66 that you 20 were on the panel, do you recall seeing any new 21 cases of asbestosis diagnosed at Rochdale? 22 A. Do I recall? I'm thinking very hard 23 and I'm sure there were. 24 But I, in my own mind, can't picture 25 them, if you know what I mean. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011574 1 Lewinsohn 74 2 Q. Let me ask you this: Would it be 3 fair to state that there were cases of asbestosis 4 diagnosed at Rochdale that occurred as a result of 5 asbestos exposure after 1931? 6 A. Definitely. 7 Q. And do you know of any patients who 8 died of asbestosis from exposure at Rochdale after 9 1931? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And how many such patients are you 12 aware who died of asbestosis from exposure that 13 they sustained at Rochdale after 1931? 14 MR. WILL: Excuse me. 15 Do you mean was he aware of when he 16 was on the panel or is he aware of now? 17 MR. BROWNSON: That's a good point. 18 Q. Let me ask you this, that you're 19 aware of now. 20 A. How many? 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. Without going back to statistics, I 23 wouldn't like to hazard a guess. 24 Q. Do you know if there were more than 25 three workers who have died from asbestosis as a DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011575 1 Lewinsohn 75 2 result of exposure incurred after 1931 at 3 Rochdale? 4 A. Do I know of more than three? 5 Q. Right. 6 A. There were obviously more than three, 7 because otherwise, Richard Doll's epidemiological 8 studies would not have been done, and other 9 mortality studies could not have been done at 10 Rochdale. 11 Q. During the time you were on the 12 Pneumoconiosis Panel from '63 to '66, are you 13 aware of any asbestos death that occurred during 14 that period of time from workers at Rochdale? 15 A. I'm aware therewere deaths, yes. 16 Q. During the years you were on the 17 Pneumoconiosis Panel from '63 to '66, did you see 18 lung cancers among workers at Rochdale that you 19 considered to be related to asbestosis? 20 A. That's such a small corridor of time. 21 Q. Right. 22 A. And I subsequently went to work for 23 10 years at Rochdale, that to separate - 24 Q. I know you did. 25 A. -- what I saw on the panel from what DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011576 1 Lewinsohn 76 2 I saw when I worked in the company, I find .. 3 virtually impossible. 4 Q. I'm going to talk in a minute about 5 what you saw during the years that you worked at 6 Turner Brothers. Maybe we'll expand those 7 questions. 8 But let me ask you this: Did you see 9 any, during the years you were on the 10 Pneumoconiosis Panel, did you see any cases of 11 mesothelioma from workers at Rochdale? 12 A. At Rochdale? 13 Q. Yes. 14 A. I can say no. 15 Q. How about from other asbestos plants? 16 A. I can answer yes to that. 17 Q. And what causes of mesothelioma did 18 you see arising among workers in asbestos plants 19 when you were on the Pneumoconiosis Panel from '63 20 to '66? 21 A. I can recollect seeing my very first 22 case of pleural mesothelioma in that period. 23 And, as far as I'm aware, I probably 24 saw personally at least one other case. 25 Q. Was this a pleural or a peritoneal DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867.- 8220 UCAREF00011577 1 Lewinsohn 77 2 mesothelioma? 3 A. i believe they were probably both 4 pleural. 5 Q. And do you know what work history the 6 two workers had who had the pleural mesotheliomas 7 that you saw when you were on the panel from '63 8 to '66? 9 A. I can't tell you about the other one, 10 if there were any others, I can't tell you about 11 those. 12 But I do certainly know about the 13 first one, because again, that was my first and 14 I'll always remember that case. 15 And - - 16 Q. What do you recall about that case? 17 A. He was a very unusual case because he 18 worked at Ferodo, which was a brake lining 19 manufacturing or friction materials company, 20 perhaps, I should call it, also belonging to the 21 Turner and Newall organization. 22 And this particular man had worked 23 there for a long time and was the first case of 24 mesothelioma, or I believe almost, of 25 asbestos - related disease, that had occurred from DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011578 1 Lewinsohn 78 2 that particular plant. 3 Q. You mentioned earlier that there were 4 these three diagnostic criteria for asbestosis 5 that you used from '63 to '66 when you were on the 6 panel. 7 And as I understand them, they were a 8 crepitant rales, number one, number two was 9 findings on x-ray, and number three was a history, 10 occupational history of asbestos. 11 And I am - - 12 A. I don't remember whether we, at that 13 time, also looked at lung pulmonary function to 14 see whether there were changes of -- restricted 15 changes in pulmonary function, but we certainly 16 did in some cases, do have pulmonary function 17 tests done. 18 Q. So you recall, during the year '63 to 19 '66, you were doing pulmonary function tests on 20 asbestos - exposed workers? 21 A. Only if indicated. 22 Q. What were you looking for at that 23 time, restrictive? 24 A. Restrictive changes and a reduction 25 in the diffusing capacity. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011579 1 Lewinsohn 79 Q. And what would indicate to you tha pulmonary function test was in order during tho 4 years? 5 A. I guess if there was any doubt about 6 the diagnostic criteria; in other words, if we 7 felt that the radiological changes were minimal, 8 were absent and yet some of the other criteria 9 were present, we may have wanted to do some 10 pulmonary function test, just to give us another 11 method of assessing the individual's impairment, 12 basically. 13 Q. Do you remember suspending any 14 workers from Rochdale while you were on the panel 15 from '63 to '66 as a result of a result of 16 pulmonary function deficit? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Do you remember any workers from 19 Rochdale during those years - 20 A. I beg your pardon? 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. Let me give you -- I think, you know, 23 let me explain something to you. 24 People who were suspended, the 25 individual did not necessarily have to stop DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)967-8220 UCAREF00011580  ~. 1 Lewinsohn 80 2 working. 3 Q. No, I understand that. 4 As I understand it, he was suspended 5 from working in a scheduled area, is that right? 6 A. But he could refuse, he could go on 7 working if he refused to be suspended. 8 Q. Oh, okay. 9 A. It wasn't an absolute suspension. 10 That is one thing, however, and in those people 11 who we suspended, we always advised them to put in 12 a claim for asbestosis. - And in order to get asbestosis, they 14 had to appear before a Pneumoconiosis Medical 15 Board consisting of two members of the panel. 16 And when they were boarded, when they 17 came -- and they weren't boarded at Rochdale, they 18 were brought into Manchester for boarding. 19 When they had the board, at that 20 time, we would do a spirometry on them. We would 21 also x-ray them again. 22 So when they were seen in Manchester, 23 they had a more thorough examination and that 24 included a test of lung function. And what we were looking for there in DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011581 1 Lewinsohn 81 2 an asbestosis case was restrictive defect. 3 However, we were also looking for any 4 other pulmonary defect, because under our 5 regulations, somebody who had an aggravating 6 factor, had asbestosis, but also had some other 7 aggravating factor that contributed to- the 8 disablement, and wouldn't have done so had they 9 not had the asbestosis. 10 That was added on as a supplementary 11 rating, and that was often based upon the finding 12 of lung function of concomitant construction. 13 Q. Let me see if I have got this 14 straight. You'll have to bear with me. 15 As a member of the Pneumoconiosis 16 Panel from '63 to '66, you could recommend 17 suspension of a worker from a scheduled area at 18 Rochdale, and that worker could choose to accept 19 that or not? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. But you would also recommend, if one 22 of you recommended suspension, that the worker put 23 in a claim for compensation? 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. And in your experience, when you DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011582 1 Lewins ohn 82 2 recommended suspension of a worker at Rochdale for 3 asbestosis, did those workers then make claims for 4 compensation 5 A. Some did and some did not. 6 Q. And of those who did, they then would 7 have to go to Manchester and appear before two 8 members of the Pneumoconiosis Panel? 9 A. Who constituted a board. 10 Q. Who constituted a board. 11 And that is what you called being 12 boarded? 13 A. Right. 14 Q. And at that time the worker appeared 15 before the two members of the panel on this board, 16 and he would again be examined? 17 A. Correct. . 18 And the two members of the board 19 examining that person would probably not be the 20 same, not have -- one of the persons that 21 originally suspended them and seen them would not 22 be a member of that board. 23 It would be two other members of the 24 panel. 25 Q. Do you recall being a member of one DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011583 1 Lewinsohn 83 2 of those board panels at Manchester for the 3 Rochdale workers? 4 A. Oh, yes. 5 Q. And on occasions, when you were a 6 member of that board panel, or a board panel from 7 '63 to '66, do you recall doing spirometry or 8 pulmonary function testing on some of the Rochdale 9 workers in connection with their compensation 10 claim? . 11 A. That is where I have difficulty. 12 I can't answer that, other than the 13 spirometry that was done when they were boarded. 14 Q. So you recall that spirometry was 15 done when they were boarded; you just can't recall 16 whether you did it or not yourself? 17 A. No, I'm saying, I can't recall going 18 on and doing a whole battery of lung function 19 test. Spirometry was going on. 20 Q. You recall doing the spirometry? 21 A. Yes, we did not have facilities for 22 doing any more than that. 23 Q. Okay, now I'm clear. 24 Do you recall recommending or 25 granting, whatever your powers were, compensation DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011584 235 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF PENNSYLVANIA ............................. ..................................................-.............................x IN RE: ASBESTOS PRODUCTS LIABILITY Civil LITIGATION (NO. VI) MDL 875 ...................................................................................................................... Thia Document Relates to: UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FIFTH DIVISION DISTRICT OF MINNESOTA ..................................................................................................................... CONWED CORPORATION, ' Plaintiff, 5-92-88 - against - UNION CARBIDE CHEMICALS AND PLASTICS COMPANY, INC., (f/k/a Union Carbide Corporation), - and- Defendant, UNION CARBIDE CHEMICALS AND PLASTICS COMPANY, INC. (f/k/a Union Carbide Corporation), - against - OWENS-CORNING FIBERGLAS CORPORATION, et al., WALKER JAMAR COMPANY, A.W. KUETTBL & SONS, INC., API, INC., and MacARTHUR COMPANY, Third-Party Defendants. ..................................................................................................................x October 18, 1994 HILTON C. LEWINSOHN (Cont'd) Doyle Reporting, Inc. CERTIFIED STENOTYPE REPORTERS Total Litigation Support WALTER SHAPIRO. CSR CHARLES SHAPIRO. CSR 369 LEXINGTON AVENUE NEW YORK. N Y. 10017 (212) 867 8220 UCAREF00011740 1 Lewinsohn 85 2 Q. Let me put the question to you then, 3 and I'll ask you to explain it to me, which would 4 be better. S How would this compensation for 6 aggravation of a pulmonary condition work when you 7 sat on that board from '63 to '66? 8 A. It's a long time ago. But from my 9 recollection, if somebody had asbestosis, and as a 10 result of the examination that we conducted, and 11 the findings on the spirometry, and whatever else 12 we considered, we decided, for example, that the 13 disability was 20 percent, but that he also had 14 evidence of chronic bronchitis, and that the 15 presence of the chronic bronchitis would increase 16 his disability to 30 percent, then he would be 17 given something for that bronchitis as an 18 aggravating factor because it was making his 19 asbestosis worse. 20 Q. I follow you. 21 And this was a function of the 22 Pneumoconiosis Board - 23 A. Right. 24 Q. Can you give me someexamples that 25 you can recall, other than bronchitis, that would DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 . UCAREF00011586 1 Lewinsohn 86 2 cause aggravation of an asbestosis case that- you 3 saw as a member of that board? 4 A. Well, it could work the other way 5 around as well. 6 If somebody had asbestosis, but also 7 was found to have, say, a heart condition, the 8 development of the pulmonary fibrosis would 9 aggravate that heart condition. 10 Q. And would then that worker get 11 some - - 12 A. That worker could possibly get some 13 additional benefits because he was worse than he 14 would have been had he not had the asbestosis. 15 Q. So would it be fair to say that, as 16 long as the asbestosis caused a portion of a 17 worker's disability, that other aggravating 18 circumstances could - - 19 A. Were taken into account. 20 Q. -- circumstances be aggravated by the 21 asbestosis would increase the disability? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And ones you can recall then would 24 be, for example, bronchitis and heart condition? 25 A. Heart conditions. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011587 1 Lewinsohn 87 2 Q. Anything else that you can recall? 3 A. Well, yes, things like asthma, any 4 preexisting pneumoconiosis. 5 Say, the man had been a coal miner 6 and there was evidence of a mixed pneumoconiosis. 7 I can't remember too exact. 8 Q. As a general proposition, would it be 9 fair to say that, by the time you were on the 10 Pneumoconiosis Panel from 1963 to 1966, you 11 recognized that asbestosis caused by asbestos 12 exposure could aggravate a number of other 13 pulmonary problems? 14 A. Yes. I would say, that's a 15 reasonable statement. 16 Q. And would it also be fair to say that 17 by the time you were on the Pneumoconiosis Panel 18 in 1963 to 1966, you recognized that it was good 19 practice that men working in the asbestos plant 20 needed to have these qualifying exams before they 21 should be working in that plant? 22 A. Oh, yes, that was recognized in 1931. 23 Q. And that they should have periodic 24 exams during the course of their work in the 25 scheduled areas of the plants? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011588 1 Lewinsohn 88 2 A. That was established practice. 3 Q. Let me just make sure I'm clear on 4 what the schedules there were. 5 As I understand it, the factory 6 regulations of 1931 established what these 7 scheduled areas were? 8 A. Well, I don't think they called them 9 scheduled areas, but they sort of established the 10 conditions under which these regulations, to which 11 these regulations apply. 12 Q. Let's take the Turner Brothers 13 Rochdale plant as an example. 14 From 1963 to '66, when you were on 15 the Pneumoconiosis Panel, I take it, there were 16 certain scheduled areas within that plant where 17 the regulations apply. 18 Correct? 19 A. Well, they applied throughout the 20 textile plant because it was where asbestos was 2 1 being handled in the raw state. 22 It was being opened. It was being 23 braided. It was being woven, spun. 24 All of those were criteria. 25 Q. So would it be fair to say that the DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011589 1 Lewinsohn 89 2 regulations applied wherever the asbestos was 3 being used in the plant? 4 A. In that plant, yes. 5 Q. Right. 6 And would they apply, for example, to 7 the men who were unloading the asbestos as it 8 arrived at the plant? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And let's stop there and talk about 11 that a little bit. 12 How would the asbestos arrive at the 13 Rochdale plant? 14 A. When? 15 Q. Prom '63 to '66, when you were on the 16 Pneumoconiosis Panel. 17 A. At that time, the fiber wasshipped 18 in burlap bags, Hessian bags, as we called them. 19 And they would officially, all 20 asbestos was imported -- Rochdale used largely 21 chrysotile from Rhodesia, some chrysotile from 22 Canada, but most of the chrysotile from Rhodesia. 23 This would come in these bags which 24 were handled at the docks. They were just loose 25 bags. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011590 1 Lewinsohn 90 2 Apparently, in those days, they were 3 useful as ballasts, so that when ships were latent 4 to bring the asbestos fibers from whichever 5 country was exporting them, they could -- the bags 6 could be placed all over the ship's hull as 7 ballasts. 8 They were handled on the docks with 9 men by hooks. They would plunge their hooks into 10 the bags and then sling them onto the ships. 11 And they would plunge the hooks onto 12 the bags and unload them from the ships. 13 And then they would pluck their hooks 14 into the bags and put them on trucks or whatever, 15 rail cars, and they would arrive at the plant with 16 holes in them, and with fiber spilling out of' 17 them. 18 And they really weren't a pretty 19 sight at that period in time. 20 Q. So I'm trying to stick in this period 21 1963 to 1966, and I realize it's hard for you to 22 distinguish that period. 23 A. Well, I'm talking about that period. 24 Q. So during that period of time, from 25 1963 to 1966, the asbestos would arrive at the DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011591 1 Lewinsohn 91 2 Rochdale plant by truck or rail? 3 A. Yes . 4 Q. And first of all, was it atruck or 5 was it rail? 6 A. I don't remember. 7 Q. So a truck or rail,it would arrive 8 at the plant, and it would be packed in these 9 burlap Hessian bags. 10 And what were they, about 100 pound 11 bags? 12 A. I don't know what they weighed. I 13 can't tell you. I don't remember. 14 Q. So the fiber would be packed in these 15 bags and arrive at Rochdale, and Rochdale workers 16 would have to unload the bags of asbestos fiber 17 out of the truck or rail car, I take it, and bring 18 them into the plant? 19 A. Yes, there was a big hoist in the 20 plant, and at one time, the trucks actually used 21 to drive into the hoist. 22 This wasn't in 1963 to 1966. This 2 3 was 1963 to '66. 24 I'm not sure how they got the bags 25 into the plants, because I wasn't working at that DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011592 1 Lewinsohn 92 2 time there, but I saw the bags there. 3 Q. In any event, workers at Rochdale 4 would have to unload the bags off the truck or the 5 train in some physical fashion? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Are you telling us that the asbestos 8 regulations applied to the workers doing that 9 unloading? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And in your experience, from what you 12 saw, those bags they had these holes in them, and 13 you say they were not a pretty sight. 14 Why is that, because they were broken 15 open? 16 A. They were often damaged and finer 17 fiber would be coming out of them. 18 Q. And did you observe the damaged bags 19 being unloaded? 20 A. Not in that period of time. 21 Q. Let me jump ahead to a later period 22 of time, after you began working for Turner 23 Brothers. 24 Would you observe the bags, damaged 25 bags at Turner Brothers being unloaded? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011593 1 Lewinsohn 93 2 A. Well, I'm Crying to think And I 3 think, by the time I started working for Turner 4 Brothers, they were -- you know, I think there 5 were still bags coming in. 6 Whether I actually saw them being 7 unloaded myself, I don't remember. 8 Q. Let me ask you this. 9 At the time you were on the 10 Pneumoconiosis Panel, from '63 to '66, did you 11 recognize that handling, that workers handling 12 damaged bags of asbestos coming into the plant, 13 could be exposed to asbestos? 14 A. Yes, those workers the were handling 15 They were covered under those regulations. They 16 were handling the raw material. 17 Q. Do you know if the regulations, 18 during that time period, '63 to '66, would have 19 covered those workers if the bags were not 20 damaged; in other words, if they were just 21 unloading undamaged bags? 22 A. I guess, as with all regulations, 23 there is always some room for interpretation. 24 As far as I'm aware, at Rochdale, 25 they would have been brought into the scheme for DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011594 1 Lewinsohn 94 2 medical examination and been seen by the panel. 3 I can only speak for that. 4 Q. Are you aware of any, and I'll 5 broaden this question to any time from '63 up 6 after '66, when you worked at Turner Brothers. 7 From 1966, until you left Turner 8 Brothers, are you aware of any air measurements of 9 asbestos fiber levels at the Rochdale plant in the 10 area where bags were being unloaded? 11 A. The air measurements were made 12 throughout the plant at all areas where fiber was being -- where fiber could be generated to the 14 air. 15 Q. Do you know when those measurements 16 began? 17 A. Oh, dear. I did know precisely, but 18 sitting here like this, without anything in front 19 of me, I can't tell you. 20 Except to say that they certainly 21 began a long time before I ever went there. 22 Q. And they also began before 1963? 23 A. Yes. What would have changed 24 possibly is the method of counting because measurements may go back in time. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011595 1 Lewinsohn 95 2 In fact, they had described in lots 3 of the literature about Rochdale. 4 Q. And at the time, let's take the time 5 you began at Turner Brothers, 1963-'66, '59, that 6 t ime. 7 I take it, air measurements were 8 being made at the plant in Rochdale? 9 A. They were. 10 Q. Correct? 11 A. Yes . 12 Q. And do you know if they were being 13 made at that time in the area where workers were 14 unloading bags of asbestos off the trucks or the 15 train cars? 16 A. To the best of my recollection, yes. 17 Q. And who was taking the air 18 measurements at that time in 1966? 19 A. We had a -- in 1966? 20 Q. Right. 21 A. There was a department known as the 22 Health Physics Department, under the supervision 23 of Dr. Holmes, Steve Holmes. 24 And his technicians would be taking 25 the measurements. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011596 1 Lewinsohn 96 2 Q. Is Dr. Holmes of Turner Brothers? 3 A. Dr. Holmes of Turner Brothers, Ph.D. 4 Q. Do you know, as of that time, 1966, 5 let's take that time, because maybe it will stick 6 out in your mind, because that's when you began 7 working for Turner Brothers. 8 As of 1966, do you know what the unit 9 of measurement was that was used for those air 10 measurements? 11 A. By 1966, they were doing fiber 12 counts. 13 Q. Were they doing - - 14 A. Fibers per millimeter. 15 Q. What fibers were they counting, PCC? 16 Do you know? 17 A. You mean - - 18 Q. Let me ask you this: How was the 19 fiber defined? 20 A. A fiber was defined as having a 3 to 21 1 length to diameter aspect ratio. 22 Q. And did it have to be greater than 23 any certain length or diameter? 24 A. That I don't remember. I don't 25 remember. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)067-8220 UCAREF00011597 ' 3 1 Lewinsohn 97 2 Q. You remember the 3 to 1 length aspect 3 ratio? 4 A. Right. . 5 Q. What technique was used in '66, do 6 you recall, to count the fibers? 7 A. It was a microscopic technique. 8 Q. Do you recall if they used the 9 membrane filter at that time, or the membrane 10 impinger? 11 A. They were using membrane filters. 12 Q. And - - 13 A. The membrane filter technique was 14 very much developed at Rochdale. 15 Q. And would it be fair to say that Dr. 16 Holmes was in charge of that? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Do you know when he developed or when 19 he began using the membrane filter technique to 20 count asbestos fibers at Rochdale? 21 A. I could only say in the early to 22 mid-sixties. 23 I don't know. That's my guess. I 24 wouldn't like to guess. 25 Q. As far as you recall, by the time you DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011598 1 Lewinsohn 98 2 began work at Turner Brothers in 1966, was that 3 technique in use for counting asbestos fibers at 4 Rochdale? 5 A. It was in use at Rochdale, yes. 6 Q. And then they were analyzed 7 microscopically, I take it? 8 A. Yes . 9 Q. And again, did Dr. Holmes do this? 10 A. He was in charge of it. 11 Q- Do you know the microscopy technique 12 that was used? . 13 A. There were always discussions about 14 that. 15 I believe that they used a grid 16 counting method, if that is what you want to know 17 Q. They used a grid counting method. 18 Do you know what magnification was 19 used? 20 A. No, I'm not an industrial 2 1 hydrogenist. 22 If I did know, I don't remember. 23 Q. Do you have any recollection, as you 24 sit here today, what the asbestos fiber levels 25 were at or about 1966 in areas where the asbestos DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011599 1 Lewinsohn 99 2 was unloaded into the plant? 3 A. Well, that probably would not have 4 been -- again, I doubt it would have been reported 5 as unloading. 6 It would have been grouped under a 7 heading in all that took place in what is known as 8 the fiberizing area and, you know, the bags 9 would -- or in the warehouse. 10 Q. Let me ask you this: What I am 11 trying to get at is -- I don't mean to cut you 12 off. 13 I'm trying to determine if you recall 14 what the fiber levels were at or about 1966 in 15 that time period. 16 A. Where? 17 Q. Before the asbestos was fiberized, in 18 other words, up to the point it was fiberized. 19 A. Not specifically, no. 20 Q. Do you recall generally what the 21 levels were within a range in that area, before 22 they were fiberized? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Do you recall them being less than 10 25 fibers per cubic centimeter? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. ( 212) 867 - 8220 UCAREF00011600 1 Lewinsohn 100 2 A . I don' t recall. 3 Q. Let me ask you this: I said I'd ask 4 you one more question, let me just finish this 5 train of thought. 6 At or about 1966, air measurements, 7 fiber level air measurements, were taken at 8 Rochdale, as you understand it, throughout the 9 process, correct ? 10 A. Yes . 11 Q. Do you have any recollection, as you 12 sit here today, of any of those measurements at 13 any step along the line? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Which ones do you recall? 16 A. I can probably -- I can recall that, 17 in the carting department areas, there would be 18 levels which ranged between 10 fibers per cc up to 19 20 or 30 fibers per cc on occasion- 20 Q. That would be in the carting 21 department? 22 A. Right. 23 Q. And you'll have to forgive me. I 24 don't know what the terms are for the process. 25 But I understand the asbestos was DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011601 Lewins ohn 101 brought into the plant and was fiberized by some method. 4 What was the original method used? 5 A. The fibers were dumped into a hasher. 6 By the time I went there, in '66, 7 this was done with exhaust ventilation over the 8 hopper, and it was dumped into a big drum, which 9 was totally enclosed, where it was just rumbled 10 around inside the drum. 11 I think they added some sort of a 12 mineral oil to it at one time, just to help to get 13 the fibers to break up. 14 Depending upon how much they wanted 15 the fibers opened, so they would regulate the 16 speed and the length of time that the drum 17 resolved. 18 And it would then go from the drum, 19 after having been preliminarily opened into-- I 20 forget what they called the machines - - but other 21 machines that -- like hammer mills. 22 Q. Hammer mills? 23 A. Right, which opened them further. 24 Then once they were opened to the full extent that they wanted them open, they were DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011602 1 Lewinsohn 102 2 rebagged. 3 At that time, the bags that we used 4 for internal use were polypropane bags with nylon 4 5 impregnated, and they had nylon zip fasteners, so 6 that they were, for all intents and purposes, 7 impervious. 8 These bags were then taken to the 9 back of the carting engine, and then again, were 10 manually opened and the material dumped into the 11 back of the cart. 12 Q. And the carting engine is, generally 13 speaking, what sort of machine? 14 A. Well, the carting engine takes the 15 partially opened fibers, and then parses it 16 through rollers, two rollers, which are moving in 17 opposite directions. 18 One is going that way, and the other 19 is going that way, and they have got needles on 20 them. 21 And it teases the fibers and layers 22 all of the fibers in one direction. 23 Q. Okay. - 24 A. And sometimes there would be more 25 than one set of these rollers, depending upon how DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011603 1 Lewinsohn 103 2 much they wanted to open and fluff up this fiber. 3 And then it came off at the end of 4 the car as a fleece, which is called a -- I forget 5 what they call the fleece. 6 And then it could be parsed through 7 dividers and wound onto spools in thin strips, 8 called sliver. 9 Q. At or around the time you began at 10 Turner Brothers, were these operations done under 11 ventilation? 12 In other words, was there ventilation 13 equipment at the point of operation? 14 A. Yes, there was ventilation equipment 15 there. 16 But that was constantly being 17 improved upon, because it was recognized that this 18 was a difficult process from the dust control. 19 point of view. 20 So all of the time that I was there, 21 almost weekly, something different was added to 22 try to improve the ventilation. 23 Q. So during the time that you were at 24 Turner Brothers, and quickly, what time period is 25 that, '66 to what? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011604 1 Lewinsohn 104 2 A. '76. 3 Q. There was constant updating and 4 improvement of the ventilation equipment in the 5 dusty areas? 6 A. All the time. 7 Q. And do you know if are you familiar 9 with a type of equipment known as a cyclone? 9 A. Yes, I've heard of acyclone. 10 Q. Do you know if those were used at 11 Turner Brothers? 12 A. I think those are more useful for 13 ambient air and environmental type measurements 14 than for uses in a plant environment. 15 MR. GERSON: Could we just take a 16 break? 17 (Luncheon recess 12:55 p.m.) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011605 1 Lewinsohn 105 2 (Afternoon Session: 1:30 p.m.) 3 BY MR. BROWNSON: 4 Q. Let me take you back, Doctor, to at 5 or about 1966, when you began at Turner Brothers. 6 And in the Rochdale plant, you had 7 mentioned that air measurements, air fiber 8 measurements that you recall were in the 20 to 50 9 fiber cubic centimeter range, and those were in 10 the carting room, as you recall it? 11 A. I think I said they ranged from 8 to 12 10 up to 20 to 30. 13 I can recall seeing figures like 14 that. 15 Q. Do you recall if you mentioned that 16 was in the carting room or at the carting machine? 17 A. In the cart room by the cart -- well, 18 they tested by the carting engines where the 19 people worked. 20 Q. And do you know if the ventilation 21 was in operation at the time they were doing those 22 tests? 23 A. It should have been. 24 Q. And do you know if those air fiber 25 level measurements were attempted to approximate DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011606 Lewinsohn 106 the fiber level in the air that the workers would breathe? A. These were personal samples. Q. And by personal samples, you mean they actually put a sample on the man's lapel? A. Correct. 8 Q. And so it was an effort to get the 9 sample at or near the man's breathing zone? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. Do you remember if, over time, over 12 the 10 years you were at Turner Brothers from '66 13 to '76, if these air fiber measurements were done 14 continuously over that period of time? 15 A. Yes, there was an ongoing monitoring 16 program. 17 Q. Do you know, was this required by law 18 in Britain at that time, or was it something that 19 Turner Brothers did on their own? 20 A. No, it wasn't required by law. 21 Q. Again, taking the area of thecarting 22 machine, do you know how those air fiber 23 measurements progressed over time? In other words, did they always stay at about the same level, or were improvements made DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011607 1 Lewinsohn 107 2 and they decreased over time? 3 A. Oh, they came down over time. Over 4 the 10 years I was there, they came down. 5 Q. Let's go up to, at or around 1976, 6 when you left Turner Brothers, at that point in 7 time, do you recall what those levels would have 8 been? 9 A. By that time, at Rochdale, I would 10 say, on most of the carting engines, they got the 11 levels down to below 5. 12 Sometimes -- when I say below 5, I 13 can't tell you how much lower, but below 5. 14 Q. Do you know if 5 fibers per cc was a 15 standard in Britain for asbestos in air? 16 A. There was never any promulgated 17 standard in Britain. 18 Q. Was there any sort of recommended 19 level? 20 A. At what point in time? 21 Q. Let's take 1966. 22 A. In 1966, as far as I remember, the 23 factory inspectorates were using the American 24 Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygiene 25 Standard, which was expressed in mills of DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011608 1 Lewinsohn 108 2 particles per cubic foot. 3 And I think, in 1966, that was 12 4 mill particles per cubic foot as measured by the 5 impinger technique. 6 Q. But at the same time, as I understand 7 it, Turner Brothers were doing their own 8 measurements using the membrane filter, and 5 9 percent per cc, as opposed to mills of particles 10 per cubic foot? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. And who was it who adopted or used 13 the ACGIH standard in Britain in 1966? 14 A. The factory inspectorate. 15 Q. And do you know, was the factory 16 inspectorate doing their own air measurement in 17 asbestos plants at or around 1966? 18 A. I don't know. I assume. This is an 19 assumption. 20 MR. WILL: Don't assume. 21 A. I assume, but I don't know. 22 MR. WILL: Don't guess. 23 Q. When you were with the Pneumoconiosis 24 Panel in 1963 to '66, do you recall there being 25 industrial hygenists employed by the factory DOYLS REPORTING, INC. (212)8.67 - 8220 UCAREF00011609 1 Lewinsohn 109 2 inspectorate employed by the asbestos plants? 3 A. The factory inspectorate had an 4 industrial hydrogen branch. 5 I don't recollect them -- what period 6 of time are you talking about now? 7 Q. '63 to '66. 8 A. I wouldn't know where they went, but 9 there was an industrial hygiene branch. 10 Q. Let me now move ahead to the time 11 period of 1966 to 19'76, when you were with Turner 12 Brothers Asbestos Company. 13 When you began with them, what was 14 your position with the company? 15 A. My title was medical officer. 16 Q. Were you the chief or head medical 17 officer for Turner Brothers - 18 A. Well, I was the only full-time 19 medical officer, but I didn't have the title of 20 chief medical officer at that time. 21 Q. So were you the de facto chief, but 22 without the title? 23 A. If you like. 24 Q. At that time, what facilities did 25 Turner Brothers have that you were concerned with DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011610 1 Lewinsohn 110 2 in your duties as medical officer? 3 A. You mean what type of facilities? 4 Q. Let me rephrase the question. 5 In 1966, I assume Turner Brothers had 6 more than one factory or facility, correct? 7 A. Using facility as factory? 8 Q. Right. Let's start with that. 9 What factories did Turner Brothers 10 have in '66? 11 A. They were the two factories I've 12 already mentioned to you, Rochdale and Hindley 13 Green. 14 There was a glass fiber plant in 15 northern Ireland in Dungannon, in Northern 16 Ireland. 17 Essentially that was it -- sorry, 18 there was a small cotton mill in a town called 19 Leigh. 20 Q. As medical officer, were you 21 concerned with, or did your duties require you to 22 have activities in all four of the plants? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And very briefly. on the cotton mill 25 in Leigh, did you see, during the time you were DOYLE REPORTING , INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011611 1 Lewinsohn 111 2 with Turner Brothers from '66 to '76, did you see 3 any sort of pneumoconiosis, byssinosis or anything 4 coming out of that cotton mill? 5 A. As far as I'm aware, there was no 6 byssinosis diagnosed at that mill during the 7 period I was there. 8 Q. Do you know had there been in prior 9 years? 10 A . I don't know. 11 Q. And this glass plant in Northern 6 12 Ireland, was there any sort of pneumoconiosis or 13 fibrosis among those workers during the years you 14 were at Turner Brothers? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Was there any asbestos used at that 17 plant? 18 A. No. 19 Q. That takes us to the two asbestos 20 factories that Turner Brothers had. 21 Were both of those factories in 22 operation during that 10-year period from '66 to 23 '76? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And did you oversee the medical DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011612 1 Lewinsohn 112 2 condition, if I can use that term, of the workers 3 in those two plants for those 10 years? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And was the British factory 6 inspectorate also doing the sorts of duties that 7 you told us that you were doing from '63 to '66? 8 A. The Pneumoconiosis Medical Panel? 9 Q. Right. 10 Did that continue after you became 11 medical director of Turner Brothers? 12 A. Oh, yes. 13 Q. So would it be fair say today that, 14 from '66 to '76, the workers at the Turner 15 Brothers Asbestos plants had the Turner Brothers 16 examinations every other year, and they also had 17 the Pneumoconiosis Panel examinations every 18 alternate year? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. And I don't want to go through this 21 all again, but were those the same that they had 22 been during the '63 to *66 time period, in terms 23 of what was being done and what was being looked 24 for, or did that change? 25 A. It changed at Rochdale, basically. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011613 1 Lewinsohn 113 2 Q. What was the change at Rochdale?. 3 A. The x-rays used to be taken by a 4 mobile van that came and took them. 5 And when I came to Rochdale, we 6 purchased our own equipment, so we took our x-rays 7 on-site with our own equipment. 8 In fact, this was also portable 9 equipment. We tried to take it to Hindley Green. 10 It didn't work out very well. 11 The other thing at Rochdale was that 12 I established a pulmonary function lab on-site 13 that was capable of doing more than just 14 spirometry. 15 Q. What sort of pulmonary function work 16 could you do at that lab? 17 A. We could do lung volumes, and we 18 could do the carbon monoxide diffusing capacity. 19 We also measured the carbon dioxide 20 tension by an indirect method. 2 1 Q. Over the course of time from '66 to 22 '76, as far as you knew, did the British 23 Pneumoconiosis Panel criteria change for awarding 24 compensation in asbestosis cases, or was it the 25 same as what you told us about earlier? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011614 1 Lewinsohn 114 2 A. '66 to '76? 3 Q. Right. 4 A. I think it stayed essentially the 5 same. 6 Q. As far as you were concerned, from 7 the time period '66 to '76, were the diagnostic 8 criteria for determining whether a man should be 9 suspended or not, or recommended that he be 10 suspended or not, the same or did those change? 11 A. I think those stayed essentially the 12 same as well. 13 Q. At the Rochdale plant, from '66 to 14 '76, did Turner Brothers continue to use the 15 Rhodesia and the Canadian chrysotile? 16 A. Well, as you know, Rhodesia 17 proclaimed the unilateral declaration of 18 independence and there was a trade embargo and 19 sanctions imposed on Rhodesia. 20 And so the Rhodesian fiber was no 21 longer available after about '66 or '67, whenever 22 that occurred. 23 So that the amount of fiber that then 24 came from Canada increased after the inventory of 25 Rhodesia fiber was used up. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011615 1 Lewinsohn 115 2 Q. Would it be fair to say that, at the 3 time of the boycott on trade with Rhodesia, or 4 after that time, the fiber that was used at 5 Rochdale all came from Canada? 6 A. Some of it. Not all from Canada. 7 Some of it, I believe, came from Swasea. But the 8 majority was from Canada. . 9 Q. Let's take the time period at or 10 around 1966, when you began with Turner Brothers. 11 What was the volume of asbestos that 12 was being used at the Rochdale plants, in rough 13 figures ? 14 A. I don't know. 7 15 Q. Did that pretty much stay the same 16 over years or did it increase or go down in the 17 years that you were there up until '76? 18 A. It's difficult to answer that because 19 it obviously fluctuated with economic cycles. 20 Q. And where did the chrysotile come 21 from that was used at Rochdale? 22 A. I guess some of it came from Casio. 23 Some may have come from the Bell mines or they may . 24 have come from other companies, but most of them, 25 I think, were Casio or Bell mines. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. {212)867-8220 UCAREF00011616 1 Lewinsohn 116 2 Q. Weren't the Bell mines owned by 3 Turner and Newall at that time? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. But the Rochdale plant didn't 6 necessarily have to buy all of their chrysotile 7 from Bell, they could buy from other places? 8 A. Sure. 9 Q. Do you know if the Rochdale plant 10 ever used Union Carbide asbestos during the years 11 you were there? 12 A. Never saw it. 13 Q. Let me ask you this. I'm jumping 14 ahead a little bit here, but when was the first 15 time you heard of Calidria asbestos? 16 A. That's again a difficult question to 17' answer. But with certainty, when I joined Union 18 Carbide in '82. I can't tell you with certainty, 19 whether I heard of it before then. 20 Q. Let me go back to the time that you 21 were medical officer at Turner and Newall from '66 22 to '76. 23 During that period of time, what portion of your work or your time would be taken up with asbestos-related disease work? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011617 1 Lewinsohn 117 2 A. Most of my t ime . 3 Q. In other words, I'm just curious, 4 there other things you did. let's say if a 5 r had an injury or got his finger caught in a 6 machine? 7 A. We had a dispensary, first aid 8 department, where they treated those things. They 9 would call me in if they needed my business but 10 most of our injuries were sent off to the local 11 hospital right away, which was only a mile down 12 the road, so we didn't do anything major on our 13 premises. 14 But to answer your question, I was 15 involved in all sorts of things that an 16 occupational physician gets involved in, giving 17 advice about noise and hearing loss. 18 We had a glass fiber division at 19 Hindley Green where, as you know, glass fiber was 20 prone to cause itching and dermatitis. So I was 2 1 involved in all of the fields of occupational 22 medicine that a medical officer becomes involved 23 in. 24 However, our major hazard was 25 asbestos. And I suspect most of the largest DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011618 1 Lewinsohn 118 2 proportion of my time involved with matters 3 pertaining to asbestos. 4 Q. What did the medical department at 5 Turner Brothers consist of during those years '66 6 to '76 in addition to yourself? Were there others 7 or was it just you? 8 A. Well, when I went there, there was a 9 Dr. John Knox was still around as a consultant to 10 Turner and Newall, and he used to come in 11 periodically just to chat, talk about things. He 12 didn't do any work in the department. 13 And after I guess a few years, I'm 14 not sure how long it was, I was -- I had an 15 assistant for a short period of time. First full 16 time, then part time, then he quit and went into 17 practice in the area. So most of the time I was 18 single-handed. 19 There was a nursing sister, 20 registered nurse in charge of the medical 21 department in Rochdale and one at Hindley Green. 22 And at Rochdale, I believe there was another 23 registered nurse and then there were first aid 24 attendants. And I had a x-ray technician and a 25 lung function technician. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011619 1 Lewinsohn 119 2 Q. Was there also a medical library of 3 any sort there? 4 A. There was not a medical library. The 5 company had on the site its research and 6 development department, and in the research and 7 development department there was a scientific 8 library. And in the scientific library they used .9 to review the literature, scientific and medical 10 literature, and provide me with reprints, et 11 cetera, from that literature. 12 Q. And do you know if they subscribed to 13 medical journals at that library during the years 14 that you were there? 8 15 A. To the best of my recollection, they 16 subscribed to some medical journals. 17 Q. Do you know if one of the journals 18 that they subscribed to was the British Medical 19 Journal? 20 A. I really don't know because I would 2 1 have got the British Medical Journal myself. 22 Q. At the time you began as medical 23 officer at Turner Brothers Asbestos in 1966, did 24 you make any effort to go back and review prior 25 cases of asbestosis or other diseases that had DOYLB REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011620 1 Lewinsohn 120 2 arisen at Turner Brothers to familiarize yourself 3 with the situation? 4 A. You mean case by case? 5 Q. Well, I'm not sure how you might have 6 done it. In any sense. 7 A. When I went to Turner Brothers, Dr. 8 Knox brought me up to date with the work of 9 Richard Doll and the cohorts that had been 10 established and reported in the literature, and 11 explained to me how those had been -- how the 12 cohorts had been developed and what the findings 13 were . 14 Q. Did you become familiar at that time 15 with some of the old cases of asbestosis with 16 Turner Brothers, such as -- I've gone through the 17 literature and I've pulled out this case with this 18 Mrs. Kershaw back in the 20's that was reported by 19 Dr. Cook. 20 A. Well, I knew about Cook's case. 21 Q. That was Nellie Kershaw? 22 A. Well, I discovered eventually that 23 that was Nellie Kershaw. I don't remember all of 24 the details. If you have anything there that 25 describes it - - DOYLE REPORTING, INC. {212)867-8220 UCAREF00011621 1 Lewinsohn 121 2 Q. Actually, I went and pulled the 3 paper, which was a paper in the British Medical 4 Journal in 1924 called "Fibroses of the Lungs Due 5 to the inhalation of Asbestos Dust," by W.E. 6 Cooke, and now you've got it there. 7 I'm just curious if as part of your 8 your work or investigation or whatever you want to 9 call it after you became medical director, if you 10 went back and reviewed some of this old material 11 arising out of the Turner Brothers works. 12 A. No, I didn't actually go back and do 13 case reviews. 14 Q. Do you remember when this particular 15 case came to your attention? 16 A. I'm trying to remember where I read 17 about it, but I read a review, and I'm not sure 18 who had published it either, in which they 19 recounted the history of the development of the 20 recognition of asbestosis. And in that review, 21 which was shortly after I joined the company, I 22 read about these various cases, the Montgomery and 23 Cooke and Selher's cases, which were the early 24 cases described. 25 I never went back personally and DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011622 1 Lewinsohn 122 2 researched those cases. 3 Q. As I understand it -- let me back up 4 and just ask you this. 5 Is it fair to say that at least when ' 6 you began as medical officer at Turner Brothers in 7 1966, you did make some investigation into the 8 background of cases at the plant? 9 And I understand you didn't go case 10 by case and look at them all, but you did do some 11 checking, you spoke to Dr. Knox? 12 A. Yes. I brought myself up to date and 13 learned what was going on. 14 MR. BROWNSON: I suppose for the 15 record, let's just mark that since we've 16 been looking at it. 17 We'll mark this as Lewinsohn 2. 18 (Whereupon, medical case from Dr. 19 Cooke marked Lewisohn Exhibit 2 for 20 identification as of this date.) 21 MR. BROWNSON: Just for the record, 22 I had the reporter mark as Lewinsohn 23 deposition Exhibit 2, the medical case from 24 Dr. Cooke we were just looking at in July 25 26, 1924. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011623 1 Lewinsohn 123 2 Q. Now, as I understand it, shortly 3 after you began at Turner Brothers in 1966, there 4 was a study done of workers of the plant for 5 asbestosis; is that correct? 6 A. Well, as I told you, these cohorts 7 had been established for follow-up, and a study 8 had been published I believe in 1964 in the annals 9 of the New York Academy of Sciences. That was the 10 most recent one that I was aware of. 11 Q. The cohort presented at the New York 12 Conference in 1964, was this a cohort of Turner 13 workers? . 9 14 A. Well, the cohorts have been presented 15 the paper that was given I believe by Knox, 16 Holmes, Doll and Hill, was a follow-up of the 17 cohorts that had been established by Dr. Doll in 18 1955 . 19 Q. This was a cohort from Rochdale? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And what was being presented in 1964 22 at the conference of the New York Academy of 23 Sciences was a follow-up of that same cohort that 24 Doll had looked at, or was this new additional 25 people involved? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011624 1 Lewinsohn 124 2 A. Well, you know, a cohort, the cohort 3 is a living thing, and it wasn't one cohort. 4 There were different cohorts being followed. 5 And what they were looking at was to 6 see whether there were differences in the instance 7 or in the causes of death. These were mortality 8 studies. The incidents in the causes of death 9 between people who had entered and worked in that 10 factory at different periods of time. 11 So there was the one cohort that 12 consisted of people who had worked more than 10 13 years prior to 1931; people who had worked for 14 more than 10 years after 1931. That type of 15 comparison, to show that the incidents of 16 asbestosis had declined. And in the 1964 paper, I 17 believe, the inference was that the incidents of 18 lung cancer in persons first exposed after 1931 19 had declined to the extent where it was no greater 20 than for the general population. 2 1 Q. Let me ask you this: Just to 22 summarize this, at the 1964 conference sponsored 23 by the New York Academy of Sciences here in New 24 York City where we're sitting today, there was a 25 paper presented concerning a cohort or group of DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011625 1 Lewinsohn 125 2 workers from the Turner Brothers Rochdale pLant, 3 correct? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. And that conference, ofcourse, was 6 the conference that was chaired by Dr. Irving 7 Selikoff and which was then published in the 8 proceedings of New York Academy of Sciences or the 9 proceedings of which were published in the annals 10 of New York Academy of Sciences, correct? 11 A. As a supplement. 12 Q. As I understand it, though, the 13 British Occupational Hygiene Society reviewed 14 clinical and x-ray data on certain Turner Brothers 15 employees who were employed in 1966. 16 And my question is was this a 17 different group or is that the same workers? 18 A. Different. And it may have included 19 some of the same workers, but this was not a 20 mortality. The British Occupational Hygiene 21 Society did not do a mortality, they did a 22 morbidity study. 23 Q. So they were just looking at the 24 workers employed, a group of the workers employed 25 at the factory at Rochdale at the time in 1966? DOYLE REPORTING, INC .212)867-8220 UCAREF00011626 1 Lewinsohn 126 2 A. Yes. What they did was -- yes,^ they 3 were looking at a group of workers that met 4 certain selection criteria with regard to 5 exposure, and that were I guess not necessarily 6 currently employed, but whose records were 7 available for examination. 9 Q. And as I understand it, at the time 9 you began as medical officer in 1966 you did some 10 follow-up surveillance of this group of workers, 11 would that be correct? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Let me work backwards. 14 I've got a paper here that you 15 authored, entitled "The Medical Surveillance of 16 Asbestos Workers," and it has even got a nice 17 photo of you on the front here. 18 MR. BROWNSON: We'll mark that as 19 Exhibit 3 and we'll work from there. 20 (whereupon, paper entitled "Medical 21 Surveillance of Asbestos Workers" marked 22 Lewisohn Exhibit 3 for identification as of 23 this date . ) 24 MR. BROWNSON: We've now marked as 25 Exhibit 3 this paper entitled "Medical DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011627 1 Lewinsohn 127 2 Surveillance of Asbestos Workers. 3 Q. You're familiar with that paper, I 4 take it? 5 A. Yes, I am. 6 Q. It lists you as chief medical 7 officer, Tu rner Brothers Asbestos Company Limited, 8 Rochdale. And this was published in what journal? 9 A. I believe in the Journal of the Royal 10 Society of Health. Public Health. 11 Q. And - 12 A. Royal Society of Public Health. 13 Q. It was published in 1972? 14 A. 1972 . 15 Q. What I am trying to figure out, and I 16 guess this is what I was trying to ask you before, 10 17 what group of workers are being reported upon in 18 this paper? 19 A. The people being reported upon in 20 this paper were current employees of Turner 21 Brothers Asbestos Company in Rochdale at that 22 time, which was in 1972. 23 If I may just take one minute. 24 Q. Sure take a look. 25 A. Let me just take a look and see. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011628 1 Lewinsohn 12 8 2 A. I would say that the report had 3 reported on here were those that had passed 4 through the medical department from May 1967 5 through -- I can't give you a definite end date, 6 but 1972 sometime. Because that's what I am 7 inferring from the information on page -- I can't 8 see the page number, if there is one. Page 73 up 9 in the top left-hand corner where the staple is. 10 On page 73, in 1967 the company 11 purchased its own x-ray unit, and since then all 12 new employees have been x-rayed during the first 13 week of employment, working in asbestos areas are 14 now x-rayed annually, and it goes on to describe 15 what is done. 16 So therefore, in 1966 the company 17 decided to equip a lung function lab which was 18 operating by May '67, and I believe that this now, 19 that the number reported on here are the numbers 20 of people that were seen in that period of time. 21 Q . ' 67 to '72? 22 A. Yes. On the next page it says 23 "preliminary results." Figures 2 and 3 illustrate 24 the incidents of radiological changes in 10 years 25 exposure groups, in 970 males and 317 females DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011629 1 Lewinsohn 129 2 exposed to asbestos. 3 So these were current employees. 4 Q. Right. 5 A. They could well have included some of 6 the people that were studied in the BOHS group of 7 people, but they weren't necessarily the same 8 group of people. 9 Q. That's what I was trying to ask you 10 before. 11 A. There was an overlap. 12 Q. Right. I'm sorry you had to go that 13 long way around, but I had to make that clear to 14 you. 15 The British Occupational Hygiene 16 Society studied a group of workers who were 17 employed, as I understand it, as of 1966, is that 18 correct? 19 A. Again, without looking at the BOHS 20 report to see what their criteria were, I can't 21 say yes or no; all I can answer is that I was not 22 involved in that particular study. Dr. Holmes, 23 Dr. Knox and Dr. Holmes did it. But the records 24 that were reviewed by Dr. Knox were from the 25 medical department at Rochdale and the review was DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011630 1 Lewinsohn 130 2 done in 1966. 3 Q. And then your study of workers which 4 are reported in this paper on 1972 may or may not 5 have included some of those people, but what it 6 did include was the people who had been seen in 7 your medical department from about May of '67 to 8 1972? 9 A. Yes. And this is not a good paper. 10 It isn't clear in its description of the 11 population that was studied. That's the clearest 12 I can give you based upon what I'm looking at now. 13 Q. I am just looking for your own 14 recollection - - 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. --of the people who are included in 17 this paper. 18 A. I think that's a fair recollection. 19 Q. As I understand it. Great Britain 20 adopted an asbestos standard in 1970 which for 21 chrysotile was two fibers per cc. 22 Is that correct? 23 A. Not entirely. Britian adopted new 24 regulations in 1969, but there was no standard. 25 The standards that the factory inspectorate would DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011631 . 11 s- 1 Lewinsohn 13 1 2 uphold -- would enforce were published in the 3 separate document which was I believe called Notes 4 for the Guidance. 5 And they didn't carry the force of 6 law. But bearing in mind their origin, the 7 factory inspectorate probably would have been - - a What's the word I'm looking for? 9 Q. Strongly encouraged. 10 A. Strongly enforced by a court of law 11 or upheld by a court of law. 12 Q. And - - 13 A. And those notes for guidance adopted 14 the British Occupation of Hygiene Society's 15 standard, in effect. 16 There was some gray areas. 17 Q. Let me ask you this: The British 18 Occupation Hygiene Society standard that was 19 adopted, as I understand it, had a standard or had 20 a limit or standard or whatever you want to call 21 it, for chrysotile asbestos, is that correct? 22 A. The British Occupational Hygiene 23 published a recommended hygiene standard for 24 chrysotile asbestos in 1968, I think it was, or 25 ' 69 . DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011632 1 Lewinsohn 132 2 Q. Do you remember what that standard 3 was ? 4 A. That standard was 105 fibers per cc, 5 which meant when interpreted, that if you worked 6 for 50 years, you could work at 25 fibers per cc 7 to get up to 100 fibers per cc. It was a 8 cumulative dose. 9 Q. Would that also mean if you worked 10 for 10 years, you could have 10 fibers per cc? 11 A. Yes.I mean, that is the way you 12 could interpret it. 13 Q. I'm wondering, did people interpret 14 it that way? 15 A. No, not really. 16 Q. Because I guess the ultimate 17 extension of that is that if you worked for one 18 year you could be exposed to 100 fibers per cc, 19 and certainly nobody considered that reasonable, 20 did they? 21 A. No, that didn't make sense. 22 Basically 50 years was considered a working 23 1if etime. 2 4 Some people thought that that was too long. Very few people worked in the same job for DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011633 1 Lewinsohn 133 2 50 years. But nevertheless, 50 years, a working 3 lifetime, two fibers per cc, 100 fibers per cc. 4 Q. What I am trying to do is take you 5 back, and if you can recall this, please tell us. 6 If you don't, please tell us. 7 I am trying to take you back to the 8 time when you were medical officer at Turner 9 Brothers Asbestos. Take the year '69, '70, when 10 this standard was in effect. 11 Was that generally considered at that 12 time to be a practical or de facto or some sort of 13 standard of two fibers per cc, or was it 14 considered something else? 15 MR. WILL: Excuse me. What do you 16 mean by "generally considered"? Did he 17 consider it? . 18 MR. BROWNSON: That's a good point. 19 Q. Let me askyou this. 20 You've told us that the standard by 21 the British Occupational Hygiene Society was 100 22 fibers per cc, which equates to two fibers per cc 23 over a 50-year working lifetime. 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And is that the way you understood it DOYLE REPORTING, INC.(212)867-8220 UCAREF00011634 1 Lewinsohn 134 2 at the time? 3 A. Well, that's the way it was. 4 Q. And my point is since you've told us 5 that people really by and large weren't working 50 6 year lifetimes and people weren't exposed to 100 7 fibers per cc, what I am wondering is what did you 8 consider to be the effect of that standard in 9 terms of a limit that the workers should be at? 10 Did you just use two fibers per cc or 11 did you use something else? 12 A. I thought that -- you're talking 13 about my personal opinion? 14 Q. Yes, back in those years. I thought 15 that two fibers per cc was an achievable standard 16 for most of the industry. 17 And that based upon experience at 18 Rochdale, which to some extent was not 19 scientifically documented experience but based 20 upon experience at Rochdale, wherein those 21 departments where the levels had always been below 22 two fibers per cc, the incidents of 23 asbestos - related diseases had been, I would say 24 negligible, if not entirely absent. And that was 25 somewhat like the weaving shed. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011635 1 Lewinsohn 13 5 2 So it appeared to me to be a 3 reasonable standard and certainly a lot better 4 than anything that we had officially accepted 5 before. 6 But I did have, and I expressed some 7 doubts at the time, I did have some do-ubts on the 8 completeness of the study that had been done in 9 terms of the identification of the population and 10 the criteria which were used to determine what was 11 significant evidence of early disease, to relate 12 back to the dust levels that were available and to 13 correlate with those dust levels. 14 So it was the best available at the 15 time. 16 Q. . Let's do this. 12 17 Let's look at the tables that you 18 just referred to in your paper. Exhibit 3. I am 19 looking at figures 2 and 3. 20 They are discussed under the heading 21 of preliminary results in your paper, and what 22 you've done is you've grouped these workers in 23 10-year exposure groups. 24 A. This is since first exposure. 25 Q. You've got one group of workers zero DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011636 1 Lewinsohn 136 2 to nine, under years since first exposure second 3 group with 10 to 19 years, then 20 to 29 and 30 to 4 39 and 40 to 49, right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Now, what I'm wondering is what is 7 the difference between tables 2 and 3? 8 A. Table 2 is males and table 3 is 9 women. 10 Q. So all other things are equal, in 11 other words? 12 A. Exposure is the commondenominator. 13 Q. That is what Iwaswondering. The 14 workers come from difference parts of the plants, 15 or that sort of thing? 16 A. Well, this isn't divided up by 17 occupation; it's simply by exposure. In fact, an 18 exposure meaning having worked there. 19 Q. Did you use time of employment as 20 your measurement of exposure in preparing these? 21 A. I used years since first exposure. 22 That doesn't mean to say that somebody who worked, 23 who had the years since first exposure had been 24 exposed for nine years, they could have been 2 5 exposed for one year. But at the time that this DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-0220 UCAREF00011637 1 Lewinsohn 137 2 data was collected, it was nine years since that 3 first exposure. 4 They had survived nine years since 5 first exposure. 6 Q. Now I'm con 7 Let's take 8 zero to nine years since 9 A. Let me expl 10 Q. I am confus 11 A. If you star 12 work of nine years, you 13 exposure and nine years 14 first occurred. 15 But if you worked at Rochdale and you 16 start the same time as someone else who starts at 17 the same time as you on the same date but only 18 works for one year, is only exposed for one year, 19 nine years later is nine years since first 20 exposure. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. Okay.But not total exposure. 23 Total exposure was one year. 24 Q . So - - 25 A. It's ina way ameasure of latency DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (21.2 ) 867 - 8220 UCAREF00011638 1 Lewinsohn 138 2 rather than a measure of exposure. 3 Q. Let's take your first category of 4 workers, and we will look at figure 2 which is I 5 guess the men. 6 A. That's the men. 7 Q. Let's look at figure 2. 8 The men in the first group there of 9 zero to nine years since first exposure . Some of 10 those men might literally have had zero time since 11 first exposure and some might have had nine years; 12 is that the way we'd read that? 13 A. That is the way you've read that. 14 Q. Could we also read that as meaning 15 there is an average exposure length of 4.5, or is 16 it more to the 9 year end or the zero end? 17 A. That I can't tell you because I don't 18 think I did that. 19 Q. Nobody really knows? 20 A. Nobody really knows. 21 Q. Let's look at the five bar graphs 22 shown in that group, figure 2, men zero to nine 23 years since first exposure. The first bar graph 24 we see is normal x-rays? 25 A. Correct. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. {212)867-8220 UCAREF00011639 1 Lewinsohn 139 2 Q. 90 percent of the men had normal 3 x-rays, is that what that says? 4 A. That is what that says. 5 Q. How come it goes up to 140 percent 6 instead of 100? 7 A. Because there may have been some that 8 would have been read more than once. 9 Q- Some x- rays read more than once? 10 A. Right. The number of findings 11 exceeds the number of subjects, resulting in large 12 percentage figures. 13 Q. That is what I am wondering. If we 14 look at that first bar graph of normal x-rays, 15 when it indicates 90 percent, that doesn't 16 necessarily mean that 90 percent of the men had 17 normal x-rays? 18 A. It means 90 percent of the x-rays 19 read were normal. 20 Q. Were normal. My question is what 21 criteria were you using at that time to determine 22 if an x-ray was normal? 23 A. I was using UICC Cincinnati 24 classification of the radiographic appearances of 25 pneumoconioses. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011640 1 Lewinsohn 140 2 Q. Do you recall what that 3 classification was - 4 A. That is very simple. 5 Q. -- in those years? 6 A. That is very similar now to the 7 current IOL classification. It was the early days 8 of that classification. 9 Q. If pleural thickening was seen on an 10 x-ray under that classification, would that be 11 classified as a normal or abnormal x-ray? 12 A. Pleural thickening was actually - 13 there were three categories of pleural thickening. 14 Inconsistent with abestos exposure, consistent 15 with asbestos exposure. There were two 16 categories. They are barred separately in the 17 graph. There are separate bars for pleural 18 thickening. 19 Q. See, here is what I can't figure out. 20 I am looking at the key here to the table to the 21 bar graphs here. The first one in the graph is 22 normal x-rays and the second one is abnormal 23 x-rays. Then under that there are two types of 24 pleural thickening, pleural inconsistent and 25 pleural consistent. And I understand pleural DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011641 1 Lewinsohn 141 2 consistent is consistent with asbestos exposure, 3 and pleural inconsistent would be something else? 4 A. Yes. 5 MR. WILL: Broken ribs? 6 THE WITNESS: TB, something like 7 that. 8 MR. BROWNSON: Okay. 9 Q. But what I am trying to find out is 10 those are charted out as separate categories and 11 they are not included either in normal x-rays or 12 abnormal x-rays. They seem to be somewhere else. 13 And what I am wondering is would that be 14 considered - - 15 Let me ask you the question this way: IS If you saw pleural thickening consistent with 17 asbestos exposure, would that be read as a normal 18 x-ray or abnormal x-ray at that time? 19 A. I don't know the answer to that, as 20 I've charted it here, and it's a long time ago. 21 It was a very crude descriptive statistical 22 exercise . 23 The best I can say is that pleural 24 thickening was looked at separately. 25 Q. Let me ask it this way if you know. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. {212)867-8220 UCAREF00011642 1 Lewinsohn 142 2 If we look at this first bar of 3 normal x-rays which is approximately 90 percent of 4 x-rays read, would those x-rays include any 5 pleural thickening? 6 A. I don't know. 7 Q. So then the second bar in the first 8 category of zero to nine years since first 9 exposure among the men is abnormal x-rays; is that 10 right? 11 A. That's correct 12 Q. And that indie ates that approximatel y 13 10 percent of the x-rays in those men were 14 abnormal? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. And I guess if we had approximately 17 90 percent of normal x-rays and approximately 10 18 percent of abnormal x-rays, those first two bars 19 seem to cover all of the x- rays, would that be 20 fair to say? 21 A. They cover 100 percent. 22 Q. But that might not be all of them? 23 . A. It might not be all of the' x-rays, 24 because as you can see, there is 140 percent. 25 Q. But in any event, approximately 10 DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011643 1 Lewinsohn 143 2 percent of all of the x-rays read were abnormal in 3 that category, zero to nine years first exposure? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Let's skip the third bar. 6 The fourth bar is pleural thickening 7 consistent with asbestos exposure. Is that what 8 that is? 9 A. If I'm going by the key, yes. 10 Q. And that seems to indicate about a 35 11 percent, 30-some percent, let's say 35 of x-rays. 12 Is that right? 13 A. That looks as though you're right. 14 Q. So could I then add approximately 35 15 percent of x-rays as having pleural thickening 16 consistent with asbestos exposure and 17 approximately 10 percent of x-rays being abnormal, 18 and conclude that approximately 45 percent had 19 some sort of change related to asbestos on them? 20 A. Not necessarily. 21 Q. Why can't I do that? 22 A. Because there might be an overlap, as 23 you already pointed out yourself. 24 Q. There might or might not be? 25 A. There might or might not be an DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011644 1 Lewinsohn 144 2 overlap. 3 Q. You can't tell? . 4 A. I don't know. 5 Q. What we do know for sure is . 6 practically 35 percent show up having pleural 7 thickening consistent with asbestos, and 8 approximately 10 percent show up as having 9 abnormal x-rays, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And other than that, we can't draw 12 further conclusions? 13 A. Probably not. 14 Q. Now - - 15 A. Also, I think something you have to 16 recognize is that, and I don't know whether this 14 17 is so or not, but it's possible that there was 18 exposure at somewhere else other than Turner 19 Brothers Rochdale, that hasn't been counted. 20 Q. In these men? 2 1 A. In these men. 22 Q. But do you have any information that 23 that is so among the men - - r to A. No. 25 Q. -- on this paper? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011645 1 Lewinsohn 145 2 A. No. I don't know at this point in 3 time whether that is so or not. 4 Q. In 1966, when you began as medical 5 officer at Rochdale, do you have an idea of what 6 the average exposure to asbestos in the Rochdale 7 plant was? 8 A. The average exposure? 9 Q. The average asbestos level in the 10 air. 11 MR. WILL: You mean just anywhere 12 the plant? 13 MR. BROWNSON: I assume it would 14 vary. 15 A. It varied by department. 16 Q. You told us earlier that in the 17 carting area it ranged from 8 to 10 fibers per 18 up to 20 or 30? 19 A. At one point in time. 20 Q. 21 22 years 3 At one point in time. And that that decreased over the 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. Now, is that the highest level of 25 airborne asbestos in the plant that you can DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011646 1 Lewinsohn 146 2 recall, or were there areas that were higher than 3 that? 4 A. I don't recall anything much higher 5 than that. 6 . Q. So would it be fair to say that as a 7 general proposition, that was at the high end of 8 the level and then it went down from there? 9 A. I think so. 10 Q. And would it also be fair to say that 11 over time that high end exposure level also 12 decreased? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. The ventilation got better and such? 15 A. Correct. But then of course there 16 was also low end. 17 Q. Do you remember what the low end was? 18 A. Well, the weaving shed was the area 19 that was a prime example and - - 20 Q. Do you remember what the air levels 21 were? 22 A. The levels, they were below two 23 fibers per cc. 24 Q. So if we take the year 1972 as an 25 example, could we say that at the Rochdale plant DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011647 1 Lewins ohn 147 2 che low level of exposure was something below two 3 fibers per cc and the high end was where? 4 A. The low end I think was consistently 5 below two levels per cc; the high end could 6 fluctuate between 8 and 10 to 20 to 30. 7 Q. Let me just go back to figure 2 here, 8 men who had, as of 1972, who had 10 to 19 years 9 since their first exposure were showing 10 approximately 35 percent abnormal x-rays, is that 11 right? 12 A. Yes. On this graph. 13 Q. As reported on the graph in figure 2 14 of your paper? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And men who had pleural Chickening 17 consistent with asbestos exposure were 18 approximately 60 percent of x-rays? 19 A. That is correct. 20 Q. And that is in the group of 10 to 19 21 years since first exposure? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And then if we go to 20 to 29 years 24 since first exposure, those men had approximately, 25 I don't know, 50 to 55 percent of normal x-rays? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011648 1 Lewinsohn 148 2 A. Approximately. 3 Q. And in fact, in that group of men 20 4 to 29 group since first exposure, there are more 5 abnormal x-rays than normal x-rays? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Also in that group of 20 to 29 years 8 since first exposure, I see that we have about 90 9 percent of x-rays with pleural thickening 10 consistent with asbestos exposure. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Are you aware that in - 13 A. But can I just remind you that 100 14 percent is not the maximum here. 15 Q. Right, I understand that. 16 Did you present these data at any 17 scientific meetings before you published these 18 papers ? 19 A. These data were presented at a 20 meeting in Rochdale at the local hospital, at a 21 provincial meeting of the Royal Society of Health. 22 Q. And do you recall afterthese data 23 were published by the Royal Society of Health in 24 1972, of speaking about them with Dr. Selikoff or 25 speaking to Dr. Selikoff about these data? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011649 1 Lewinsohn 149 2 A. I corresponded with Dr. Selikoff 3 about these data. 4 Q. So would it be fair to say that at 5 some point shortly after these data were published 6 in 1972 at least. Dr. Selikoff was aware of them? 7 A. Well, it was '72 or '73, I don't 15 8 know. But Dr. Selikoff was made aware of them, 9 yes . . 10 Q. And for the record, Dr. Selikoff 11 would be Dr. Irving J. Selikoff at the Mount Sinai 12 School of Medicine in New York City? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. Are you aware of the fact that these 15 data as published in Exhibit 3, your 1972 paper, 16 were used by other than the Occupational Health 17 and Safety Administration here in the U.S. when 18 they were setting their asbestos standards? 19 A. They were used by other than in the 20 United States when they proposed an amendment to 21 their asbestos standard in I believe 1972. Or it 22 may have been later than that, I have got the time 23 frames -- I am -- the time frames are not quite . 24 clear in my mind at the moment. 25 Q. In any event, OSHA did -- maybe I can DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011650 1 Lewinsohn 150 2 help jog your memory -- permanently adopt its 3 asbestos at 5 fibers per cc in June of 1972. 4 Do you know if these data were used 5 at that time or were they used for later 6 revisions ? 7 A. They were not used at that time. 8 Q. In 1975 OSHA proposed lowering its 9 asbestos standard to .5 fibers per cc. Do you 10 know if it was that revision where these data were 11 used? 12 A. I believe it was that revision. 13 Q. I'm taking you back in time here, but 14 as you understood it, do you recall that Dr. 15 Selikoff was somewhat alarmed at the data 16 presented in your paper here that we just saw 17 summarized in tables 2 and 3, and he went to OSHA 18 at that time and said, "Look at what Dr. Lewinsohn 19 is reporting over in England. You ought to take 20 this data into account"? 21 ' A. That is my understanding. 22 Q. So again, if we can summarize, at 23 least that data was in the possession of Dr. 24 Selikoff by '72 or '73, and had been presented to 25 OSHA at some point shortly thereafter here in the DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011651 1 Lewinsohn 151 2 United States? 3 A. By Dr. Selikoff. 4 Q. Right. And in addition to Dr. 5 Selikoff, do you recall corresponding or meeting 6 or talking with any other American researchers or 7 physicians about the data that we've just been 8 reviewing in your '72 paper? 9 A. Yes, yes. 10 Q. Who was that, can you recall? 11 A. I met with Dr. Paul Kotin who was 12 medical - - I don't know what his title was. 13 medical advisor to Johns Manville. 14 Q. C-o-t-i-n? 15 A. K-o-t-i-n. And Dr. George Wright 16 who was a consultant to Johns Manville. 17 Q. Is that the Dr. George Wright who is 18 in Cleveland? 19 A. Yes. And Dr. Hans Weil, who was in 20 Tulane University. 21 Q. Tulane? 22 A. Yes . 23 I think those were the people I met. 24 Q. And you met with these American 25 doctors where? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011652 1 Lewinsohn 152 2 A. I met with them, at their request, in 3 Denver. 4 Q. In Denver at? 5 A. At Johns Manville headquarters. 6 Q. And how was it that this meeting came 7 about? Were yo.u contacted by these people or did 8 you contact them or - - 9 A. No, I was contacted by them. 10 Q. And do you recall who it was who 11 contacted you? 12 A. That I'm not sure of. 13 Q. But in any event, somebody contacted 14 you and there was a meeting at the Johns Manville 15 headquarters in Denver when? 16 A. It must have been about the time that 17 OSHA published its intent to revise the standard 18 down. Whether that would have been '74 or '75, I 19 don't remember. 20 Q. And the meeting took place in Denver, 21 and for the record, Johns Manville was an American 22 asbestos company, right? 23 A. Are you asking me? 24 Q. Yes. I'm asking you. 25 A. Yes, yes. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011653 1 Lewinsohn 153 2 Q. It had various asbestos products 3 manufacturing plants and also had asbestos mining 4 interests; were you aware of that at the time? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Were you aware atthattime that one 7 of Johns Manville's mines was near King City, S California, in the Coalingo deposit? 9 A. I had heard of the Coalingo deposit. 10 I didn't necessarily know it was a Johns Manville 11 mine. 12 Q. In anyevent, thismeeting was venued 13 in the Johns Manville headquarters in Denver, and 14 present was this Dr. Kolin from Johns Manville? 15 A. Kotin. 16 Q. Dr. George Wright from Cleveland, Dr. 17 Hans Weil from Tulane, you, and anyone else who 18 you can recall? 19 A. There was some people from Johns 20 Manville. 21 Q. Do you remember, was it Chris 22 Schecter? Was he there? 23 A. No . 24 Q. Fred Pundsak? 25 A. Not at the meeting. I had met Fred DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011654 1 Lewinsohn 154 2 Penj ab. 3 Q. Was there a Mr. Jobe 4 A. Not that I remember. 5 Q. Mr . Ritsea? 6 A. Yes . 7 Q. Fred Ritsea? 8 A. Yes. And a statisti 9 epidemiologist, statistician that worked for Johns 10 Manville. He worked for Ritsea, I think. I don't 11 remember his name. 12 Q. Would it be fair to say that these 13 people who worked for Johns Manville were 14 concerned about your data at that time and were 15 questioning you about it? 16 A. What they had asked me to do was to 17 update them on the history of the development of 18 all of the data at Rochdale. We went back in 19 time. I started with the Meriweather and Price 20 study that had been done in 1929, which was at 21 Rochdale. 22 The Doll study in 19 -- that was 23 published in 1955, and then its extension into the 24 cohort studies that had been reported by Doll and 25 Knox and others. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011655 1 Lewinsohn 155 2 And the BOHS study and then the 3 information that was in this paper. And how all 4 of that data had been accumulated and what the 5 distinctions were between the different sets of 6 data. 7 So we discussed that. 8 Q. And were they concerned about being 9 updated on all of that data at the time of that 10 meeting because of the fact that it appeared that 11 this data was going to form some basis for the 12 revision of the American Occupational Asbestos 13 Standard? 14 A. They were, I think, trying to 15 accumulate as much knowledge as they possibly 16 could about the data that OSHA was relying on to 17 justify its proposed reduction increase in the 18 stringency of the standards. The kind of . 19 standards. 20 Q. And of course some of the data that 21 OSHA was relying on at that time to cut the 22 asbestos, the American Asbestos Occupational 23 standard from two fibers per cc down to .5 was 24 your data that we just saw here in Exhibit 3? 25 A. As presented to OSHA by Dr. Selikoff. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011656 1 Lewinsohn 156 2 Q. So in any event, by the time that 3 OSHA was considering a revision of the asbestos 4 standard here in the United States, the 5 occupational asbestos standard from two fibers 6 down to .5, OSHA had in its possession your data 7 from Rochdale which we have seen in Exhibit 3? 8 A. I must add again, as presented to 9 them by Dr. Selikoff. 10 Q. And the way I understand that OSHA 11 got that data was that Dr. Selikoff presented it 12 to them? 13 A. With his interpretation. 14 Q. Do you believe that Dr. Selikoff 15 misinterpreted the date to OSHA when he presented 16 it to them? 17 A. I,wouldn't go that far. 18 Q. Would you - - 19 A. But I think that Dr. Selikoff 20 presented the data in a manner that suited his 21 purpose. 22 Q. Let me ask you this: Do you believe 23 that Dr. Selikoff presented your data from 24 Rochdale to OSHA in a manner that was more 2 5 alarmist than the way you would have presented it? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011657 17 *r 1 Lewinsohn 157 2 A. No. I think Dr. Selikoff took my 3 data and reworked it and presented it to OSHA. 4 And it was my contention in my correspondence with 5 Dr. Selikoff that that was. A, unjustified, and B, 6 somewhat unethical due to the fact that he never 7 bothered to consult me about it, and that I had 8 some concerns about my own data that had he talked 9 to me about them, he might have understood my 10 point of view. 11 Q. And do you know if those concerns 12 that you expressed to Dr. Selikoff ever made their 13 way to OSHA, or did OSHA just get Dr. Selikoff's 14 view of your data? 15 A. I don't honestly remember if my -- 16 no, I don't know if there was any direct 17 correspondence with OSHA. 18 Q. And as you recall it, taking yourself 19 back to those years in the early 1970s, at least 20 here in the United States was Dr. Selikoff one of 21 the leading researchers on asbestos and disease? 22 A. According to Dr. Selikoff, yes. 23 Q. Was his research widely disseminated 24 in the United States concerning asbestos and 25 disease, by that time? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011658 1 Lewins ohn 15 8 2 A. Very widely. 3 Q. Around the 1970s? 4 A. Very widely disseminated by 5 television, the lay press and some journalists. 6 Q. And were his views, whether right or 7 wrong, on asbestos and disease available here in 9 the United States or disseminated here in the 9 United States, at least in the medical literature 10 by the early 1970s? 11 A. Dr. Selikoff's published scientific 12 documents are impeccable and are authoritative, 13 and probably largely because his co-author, Dr. 14 Cuyler Hammond, was a very brilliant man. 15 So Dr. Selikoff's published 16 scientific literature I have no quibbles with. 17 And he contributed greatly to the knowledge and 18 understanding of asbestos and health in the United 19 States, and thereby in the world as well. 20 So I have no axe to grind on that 21 score. 22 Q. If an American asbestos company in 23 1973, this time period we are talking about, 24 wanted to know what data OSHA was considering and 25 OSHA had in its possession to revise the American DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (2.12)867- 8220 UCAREF00011659 1 Lewinsohn 159 2 occupational asbestos standard, would it have had 3 available to it this interpretation that Dr. 4 Selikoff put on your data that you've just told us 5 about ? 6 MR. WILL: Excuse me. Are you 7 asking him could they have called up OSHA 8 and would OSHA have told them what Selikoff 9 told OSHA about Dr. Lewinsohn's data? I 10 don't know if he knows what OSHA would make 11 available. 12 MR. BROWNSON: My question is not 13 what OSHA would make available, but I'm 14 trying to find out what OSHA had in its 15 possession concerning your data that we saw 16 in Exhibit 3. 17 Q. You seem to have told us what they 18 had in their possession was not your 19 interpretation of it, but Dr. Selikoff's. 20 A. Sorry to mislead you. They also must 21 have had a copy of my paper. I had no direct 22 dealings with OSHA. As you know, anything that - 23 any documentation that OSHA accumulated once the 24 docket was opened was in the public domain. 25 So it would not be difficult to find DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011660 1 Lewinsohn 160 2 out, I guess, what OSHA had or didn't have, but I 3 didn't -- that was not up to me to do. 4 Q. If someone checked the OSHA docket at 5 that time to see what data OSHA had in its 6 possession, as I understand what you've told us, 7 they would find Dr. Selikoff's comments concerning 9 your data in addition to your own data itself? 9 A. That's your assumption. 10 Q. I thought that is what you told us. 11 but maybe not. 12 A. I don't know that. 13 Q. At least we do know that OSHA, that 14 Dr. Selikoff presented to OSHA his own 15 interpretation of your data? 16 A. Well, again, I don't know that Dr. 17 Selikoff did that. 18 Q. Well - 19 A. It may have come from Dr. Selikoff's 20 department, and in Mount Sinai, whether it was 21 actually Dr. Selikoff who presented the data to 22 OSHA or not, I don't know, it could have been Dr. 23 Nicholon or Dr. Lango or anybody who worked for 24 Dr. Selikoff. 25 Q. But in any event, Dr. Selikoff's DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011661 l Lewinsohn 161 2 interpretation of your data was presented to OSHA 3 by somebody? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And would it be fair to say that at 6 that time, that any person or party interested in 7 the new proposed revised OSHA asbestos standard 8 would have found out that it was based, at least 9 partly, on your data from Rochdale? 10 MR. WILL: I don't think he can know 11 that, Bob. 12 MR. BROWNSON: Well -- 13 MR. WILL: I mean, you're asking him 14 to assume what you can find by looking in 15 an OSHA docket at some unspecified point in 16 time . 17 MR. BROWNSON: I don't know if he 18 can know that or not, but I guess -- 19 Q. Do you know that? 20 A. I don't know. But let me say that, 21 you know, it's accepted scientific practice that 22 if you are going to quote somebody's work, you 18 23 cite the reference. 24 Q. So put another way, these data which 25 are shown in Exhibit 3, your paper, which were in DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011662 1 Lewinsohn 162 2 circulation in the United States at the time that 3 OSHA was revising its asbestos downwards? 4 A. I don't know whether they were in 5 circulation. I know that Dr. Selikoff had them. 6 The Journal of the Royal Society of Health is not 7 one of the household names in medical literature. 8 And in the United States I don't know 9 how widely that journal would be disseminated, so 10 I can't answer that except to say that I know Dr. 11 Selikoff had it. 12 Q. Do you know when you got to the 13 meeting at Johns Manville that you just told us 14 about, if people at that meeting had the data in 15 their possession? 16 A. To the best of my knowledge, they 17 did. 18 Q. Do you know if they actually had this 19 particular paper, or did they have it in some 20 other form? 21 A. As far as I know, they had the 22 particular paper. 23 Q. So at least as of the time you met 24 out in Johns Manville headquarters in Denver to 25 update these people about your work, they had your DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011663 1 Lewinsohn 163 2 paper. Exhibit 3, in their possession? 3 A. I believe they did. 4 Q. Do you know who had it in their 5 possession? Was it Dr. Weil or Dr. Wright? 6 A. I don't know who had it. 7 Q Do you know where they got it? 8 A. No, I don't know where they got it, 9 but it was published in the open literature. They 10 could get it from any number of sources once Dr. 11 Selikoff had revealed its existence. 12 Q. Would it be fair to say that in those 13 years, early 1970s when Dr. Selikoff revealed the 14 existence of your data, it then would be widely 15 disseminated in asbestos medical circles in che 16 United States? 17 A. Again, I don't know how widely it was 18 disseminated. I can't answer you, except to say 19 that Dr. Selikoff had it and I know the people I 20 met with at Johns Manville had it. Who else had 21 it, I don't know. 22 Q. Let me ask you this. If Union 23 Carbide wanted to get it in 1973, is there any 24 reason they couldn't have gotten it? 25 A. None whatsoever. It's in the open DOYLE REPORTING, INC. {212)867 - 8220 UCAREF00011664 1 Lewinsohn 164 2 literature. -' 3 Q. And Union Carbide at that time had a 4 medical library at the office of their medical 5 directory in New York City, did they not? 6 A. I wasn't there, I don't know. 7 Q. As of 1982 you were there, correct? 8 A. In Danbury, Connecticut. 9 Q. Was there a medical librarian in. 10 Danbury? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Was the medical library in New York 13 City? 14 A. Not that I know of. 15 Q. Where was the medical library? 16 A. I never -- there wasn't a medical 17 library when I was there. 18 Q. When you started at Union Carbide in 19 1972, who was the medical director of the company? 20 A. The corporate medical director of the 21 Union Carbide was Dr. Tom Lincoln. 22 Q. And do you have any understanding or 23 do you know who the Union Carbide medical director 24 was in 1973? 2 5 A. I don't know. I don't remember. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011665 1 Lewinsohn 165 2 Q. Do you know Dr. D-e-r-n-a-h-1? 3 A. D-e-r-h-r-a-1. 4 Q. Do you know Dr. Dernehl? 5 A. I met Dr. Dernehl once. 6 Q. Are you aware that he was in the 7 Union Carbide medical department in the early 8 1970s? 9 A. I am aware that he was a former Union 10 Carbide medical director. I don't know the dates 11 of his tenure. 12 Q. Would it be f air to say that Dr. 13 Dernehl would have better information than you as 14 to what medical libraries were available to Union 15 Carbide back in the early '70s? 16 MR. GERSON: Better information than 17 Dr. Lewinsohn? 18 MR. BROWNSON: Right. 19 A. Well, I wasn't there, so he probably 20 would, yes 21 (Recess taken.) 22 MR. BROWNSON: Back on the record. 23 Q. When we broke at the break here, we 24 had been talking some about Dr. Selikoff. 25 And when did you first meet Dr. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011666 1 Lewinsohn 166 2 Selikoff? 3 A. I think I first met him in 1968 in 4 Dresden. 5 Q. That was at a meeting? 6 A. At a conference. 7 Q. On what? 8 A. On asbestos. 9 Q. And I take it you were aware of he. 10 Dr. Selikoff and his work before that time? 11 A. Yes. I was aware of Dr. Selikoff's 12 work following the publication of the Annals of 13 the New York Academy of Sciences Supplement. 14 Q. And was that published in December of 15 '65 or after that? 16 A. I believe it was published in '65. 17 Q. I think the main proceedings, the big 18 book was published in '65? 19 A. '65, correct. 20 Q. And are you saying there was some 21 supplement to that? 22 A. No. That's the one I'm referring to. 23 Q- Okay. 24 A. It is a supplement to Annals, 25 Supplement 132. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011667 1 Lewinsohn 167 2' Q. In 1965 you were with the 3 pneumoconioses unit that you've told us about 4 earlier? 5 A. In 1965? 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. So it was while working for the 9 pneumoconioses unit in England that you learned of 10 the work of Dr. Selikoff? 11 A. When did I -- I went back to the - 12 to England in 1963. 13 At the pneumoconioses medical panel 14 in 1964 we used to have regular meetings. I heard 15 about the New York meeting and Dr. Selikoff's work 16 through Dr. McVide, who was the senior medical 17 officer of the pneumoconioses medical panel who 18 attended that meeting, and in fact presented a 19 paper at that meeting. 20 And when he came back he distributed 21 his paper and I guess told us about Selikoff's 22 work. So I heard it about in '64. I didn't read 23 his publications until after they came out in the 24 Annals . 25 Q. They were published in the Annals of DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011668 1 Lewinsohn 168 2 the New York Academy of Science in 1965. Did you 3 then read Dr. Selikoff's papers? 4 A. I read most of the papers in that 5 book at the time. 6 Q. And were you aware at that time 7 that -- at the risk of simplifying this -- were 8 you aware at that time that Dr. Selikoff was 9 following a group of insulation workers in New 10 York City and New Jersey? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And reporting on their experience 13 with asbestos? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And are youaware that since that 16 initial conference in 1964 that was published in 17 1965, that Dr. Selikoff has published other papers 18 up through the years concerning that same group of 19 asbestos insulation workers? 20 A. Yes . 21 Q. I'vegot here anumber of or a few of 22 these papers, and I just wanted to show you some. 23 MR. BR0WNS0N: Let's mark this this 24 one . 25 (Whereupon, paper entitled "Asbestos DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)067-8220 UCAREF00011669 1 Lewinsohn 169 2 Exposure and Neoplasia," marked Lewinsohn 3 Exhibit 4 for identification as of this 4 date.) 5 Q. I have shown you Deposition Exhibit 6 No. 4, which is a paper entitled "Asbestos 7 Exposure and Neoplasia," which was published in 8 the Journal of the American Medical Association in 9 April 6, 1964. 10 Do you know whether you read this 11 paper at any point in time? 12 MR. WILL: Any point in time? 13 MR. BR0WNS0N: I will start with any 14 point in time. And if he says no, we can 15 end it right there. 16 A. Yes, I read this paper. 17 Q. My next question is do you know when 18 you first read it? 19 A. That I can't tell you. It could well 20 have been after its publication in 1964 some time. 21 Q. Are you familiar with this paper? 22 A. Well, what makes we believe that I 23 read this paper is this is where Selikoff first 24 indicated the added risk of smoking and working 25 with asbestos . DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011670 1 Lewinsohn 170 2 Q. In this particular paper it indicates 3 that he was investigating the members of the 4 Asbestos Workers Union in the New York 5 Metropolitan area. And then he goes on to 6 describe some of his findings. 7 Is that correct? 8 A. Yes. That's what the paper is about. 9 Q. And I want you to look at the last 10 page of the paper, which is page 26. It has a 11 heading with an italicized clause "Environmental 12 asbestos exposure," and he writes "The recent 13 demonstration by South African and British 14 investigators of pleural and peritoneal neoplasms 15 among individuals who had chance environmental 16 exposure to asbestos many years before raises the 17 very important question of possible widespread 18 carcinogenic air pollution." 19 Do you know what he is talking about 20 when he talks about the British investigators? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What's that? 23 A. I believe he is talking about the 24 British investigator, I believe he is talking 25 about Dr. Newhouse. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011671 1 Lewinsohn 171 2 Q. And that is Molly Newhouse? 3 A. Dr. Molly Newhouse, reference number. 4 Q. He has got McCaughey? 5 A. McCaughey coffee, Wade and Elmes. 20 6 Q. You're aware, though, of the work of 7 Dr. Newhouse in the mid '60s? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Then he goes on to write at the end 10 of the article, "A particular variety of 11 environmental exposure may be of even greater 12 concern. Asbestos exposure in industry will not 13 be limited to the particular craft that utilizes 14 the material. The floating fibers do not respect 15 job classifications." 16 Do you see that? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. What I am wondering is when you were 19 at the pneumoconioses unit, and then after 1966 at 20 Turner Brothers, did you have an understanding 21 that the asbestos fibers, to use Dr. Selikoff's 22 words, do not respect job classifications? 23 In other words they could float or . 24 drift around the work area? 25 A. Did I have an understanding? It was DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011672 1 Lewinsohn 218 2 Manville mine at Coalinga. California? 3 A. I have no idea. 4 Q. How about the Atlas asbestos mines at 5 Coalinga? 6 A. I don't know anything about those two 7 mines. 8 Q. Do you have any information about the 9 current activity of the California board of air 10 resources Superfund activity at Coalinga? 11 A. I've heard something about it, but 12 I'm not familiar with the details. 13 Q. And when you say you've heard 14 something about it, was that more or less in IS passing or have you heard it in connection with 16 some work you have been doing? 17 A. Yes, more or less in passing. 18 Q. Do you have an understanding that 19 some governmental body in California is attempting 20 to claim that the Supertene department in 21 Coalinga, California poses some sort of health 22 hazard because it's getting into the air or water 23 out there? 24 A. That's what I've heard. 25 Q. Other than that do you have any DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011719  1 Lewinsohn 173 2 standing nearby watching, for example?' - 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. In other words, the fibers could 5 drift for some distance. A. Yes. 7 Q. I guess that's more or less a matter 8 of common sense, isn't it? 9 A. Yes. That's I why I call it , 10 bystander exposure. 11 Q. So what Dr. Selikoff is reporting in 12 this paper, Exhibit 4, that I just read, wouldn't 13 have been surprising or shocking to you in those 14 years, would it? 15 A. Well, it would have been -- he and 16 the others were introducing a new concept to the 17 conventional views of asbestos which had 18 traditionally been regarded as purely an 19 occupational disease limited to certain 20 occupations. And what these people were 21 demonstrating was that there was a potential for 22 exposure to others who hitherto had not been 23 regarded as being exposed. 24 Q. Look at Exhibit 4, the authors are 25 listed as Dr. Irving J. Selikoff and then DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011674 ^ 1 Lewinsohn 174 2 C-h-u- r-g. ............................. ................ ................. 3 Do you know a Dr. Churg? 4 A. I don't think I know Dr. Churg. 5 I've seen his name on Selikoff 6 publications, but I don't know him. 7 Q. And then also listed is Cuyler 8 Hammond. And Dr. Hammond, as I understand it, is 9 not a medical doctor? . io A. No, Dr. Cuyler Hammond, as I 11 understand it, is a doctor of Science, that is his 12 degree. 13 Q. But he was the vice president of the 14 American Cancer Society at that time; were you 15 aware of that? 16 A. I didn't know what his honors were. 17 Q. This particular paper, Exhibit 4, was 18 published in a medical journal, JAMA, which is the 19 Journal of the American Medical Association. I 20 take it you're familiar with that journal today? 21 A. Yes . 22 Q. Were you familiar with that journal 23 back in 1964? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Was that journal available over in DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011675 1 Lewinsohn 175 2 England? 3 A. Yes . 4 MR. BROWNSON: Let's mark this one. 5 (Whereupon, paper by Drs. Selikoff, 6 Churg and Hammond, marked Lewinsohn Exhibit 7 5 for identification as of this date.) 8 Q. I'm showing you what has been marked 9 as Deposition Exhibit 5. And the copy that you've 10 got doesn't have a date, but I'll tell you this is 11 a paper by Dr. Selikoff, Churg and Hammond that 12 was published in the proceedings of this 13 conference of 1964. 1 14 Published in the Annals of the New 15 York Academy of Science in 1965. 16 Do you recognize this paper as one 17 that you mentioned earlier that you read? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And this one is called "Neoplasia 20 among Insulation Workers in the United States with 21 Special Reference to Intra-Abdominal Neoplasia." 22 And its authors are E.C. Hammond - 23 is that the same Cuyler Hammond that we saw in 24 that other paper? 25 A. It is. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011676 1 Lewinsohn 176 2 Q. He is listed as being at the 'NewYork 3 Cancer Society in New York. And then Dr. Selikoff 4 and Churg at the Mt. Sinai Hospital in New York. 5 Is that correct? 6 A. That's what it says. 7 Q. And I wanted you to look at a couple 8 of things here. 9 If you look at the first page. Dr. 10 Selikoff or the authors of this paper have a 11 discussion about malignant neoplasias, and by that 12 they mean cancers, do they not? 13 A. They mean new growth which are 14 malignant. 15 Q. In laymen's terms, would that be 16 cancer? 17 A. It could be cancer, it could be 18 leukemia, it could be lymphoma, but it's a new 19 growth, neoplasm. 20 Q. But in terms of the asbestos 21 insulation workers being studied by Dr. Selikoff, 22 the neoplasms he is talkingabout are lung cancers 23 and mesotheliomas, aren't they? 24 A. I'm sorry, I was looking at the paper, could you repeat that? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011677 1 Lewinsohn 177 2 Q. In terms of the asbestos insul'a-tion 3 workers being studied by Dr. Selikoff that are 4 talked about in this paper, the neoplasms that he 5 was seeing in those workers and reporting about 6 were lung cancers and mesotheliomas, among others? 7 A. In this paper? 8 Q. No, among the insulation workers. 9 A. He is reporting on intra-abdominal 10 neoplasia in this paper. 11 Q. Okay. And do you understand -12 A. In insulation workers. 13 Q. Do you understand what the 14 intra-abdominal neoplasias are that he is talking 15 about ? 16 A. Well, I would have to read it, but 17 I -- I bel ieve, let's see which he is talking 18 about. 19 He is got a gastrointestinal 20 carcinoma. 21 Q. Look at Table 1, which I think might 22 summarize it. 23 A. Stomach, colon and rectum, so I guess 24 that is what he is calling gastrointestinal 25 carcinoma. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. {212)867-8220 UCAREF00011678 1 Lewinsohn 178 2 Q. Did you understand that Dr. Selikoff 3 in 1964 and '65, and around the time of this 4 paper, was reporting that these asbestos workers 5 not only had higher rates of lung cancer than 6 expected, but he also was claiming that they had 7 various types of gastrointestinal cancers, stomach 9 cancer, colon cancer, higher than expected? 9 A. Very interesting, he was the only 10 person finding that. 11 Q. But that's something that he was 12 reporting back at that time? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And that is a subject of this 15 particular paper? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Exhibit 5? 18 A. Yes. 19 (Whereupon, paper presented by Dr. 20 Selikoff published in the Annals of New 21 York Academy of Science in 1965 marked 22 Lewinsohn Exhibit number 6 for 23 identification as of this date.) 24 Q. NextI've got Exhibit 6 and this is 25 another paper presented by Dr. Selikoff that was DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011679 1 Lewinsohn 179 2 published in the Annals of New York Academy of 3 Science in 19 6 5. 4 Do you recall this as one of those 5 papers that you read? 6 A. Yes, it is. 7 Q. And this one is entitled "The 8 Occurrence of Asbestosis Among Insulation Workers 9 in the United States." 10 Is that correct? 11 A. That is the title. 12 Q. And do you recall reading that back 13 in this 1965 time period, the one when it was 14 published? 15 A. I believe I read this. 16 Q. And I don't know if I can summarize 17 the contents of this entire paper in a sentence, 18 but I'll try. 19 Would it be fair to say that what Dr. 20 Selikoff is reporting here is, again, about these 21 asbestos insulation workers, same group of workers 22 he had been talking about in his prior papers, is 23 that right? 24 A. Well, I think he expanded the 25 numbers; his original papers were 363 insulation DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011680 1 Lewinsohn 180 2 workers and here is he is talking about much 3 larger group. 4 14,000 total membership examined, he 5 is talking about more than a thousand. 6 Q. It's, I guess what I meant to say -- 7 I'm sorry? 8 A. So it's - 2 9 Q. It's the same workers, he is just 10 reporting on more of them as time goes on, he is 11 reporting on more and more of these people? 12 A. Yes, he is actually talking about a 13 larger group of people; whether they include these 14 365, I don't know. 15 Q. But again, this larger group is 16 asbestos insulation workers in the United States? 17 A. Yes, that is what he calls them. 18 Q. I see on the first page in the second 19 full paragraph he is giving some history of 20 historical references to asbestos disease in 21 textile workers and he mentions the publication of 22 Cooke's case in 1927? 23 A. Which page is this? . 24 Q. It's on the very first page. . 25 A. Yes, right. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011681 1 Lewinsohn 181 2 Q. Is chat the same Cooke's case we 3 looked at < rlier that arose? 4 A. That is correct. S Q Out of Turner plant back in the early 6 1920's? 7 A. Reference number No. 4 in the paper, 8 "Pulmonary 9 Volume Two, 10 Which is not the same publication 11 this also : 12 Yes, I'm sorry, it's the same case, 13 but he has 14 Q. In fact, there are actually, I guess 15 that partii 16 different 17 A. 18 Q. And I've got here a couple of other 19 references 20 '27, which 21 the point 22 woman? 23 A. It would appear so. 24 Q. And if you look at the section 25 entitled " DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011682 1 Lewinsohn 182 2 paper here , he reports that, "Among the asbestos 3 insulation workers examined by us,, evidence of 4 pulmonary asbestosis was present in almost half of 5 the men examined." 6 A. Page 142? 7 Q. 146, I'm sorry. . 8 A. Okay. 9 Q. Do you see that reference? 10 A. Yes . 11 Q. And then he says, "In this 12 evaluation , radiologic change has been used as the 13 sole criteria," right? 14 A. Yes . 15 Q. So is he saying there that based on 16 x-rays only, he claims to see pulmonary asbestosis 17 in almost half of the insulation workers that he 18 examined? 19 A. What he is saying there is that the 20 sole criteria was x-rays. That almost half of the 21 men examined had evidence of asbestosis using that 22 criteria, yes. 23 And it goes on to say that, "We 24 understand that evaluation of the presence of 25 asbestosis limited only to x-ray findings tends to DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011683 Lewinsohn 183 2 result in underestimation." 3 Q. And what do you understand him to 4 mean by that? 5 A. Well, he means that there may be some 6 cases that have other criteria of diagnosis as I 7 pointed out to you, other criteria for the 8 diagnosis of asbestosis, as I pointed out to you 9 earlier, and that do not necessarily have x-ray 10 changes. 11 Q. So would it be fair to say that what 12 Dr. Selikoff is reporting is almost half of these 13 asbestos insulation workers in the United States 14 had asbestos on x-ray, but really more of them 15 might have asbestosis if he used these other 16 diagnostic criteria? 17 A. Well, what Dr. Selikoff is saying is 18 that of 1258 asbestos insulation workers that he 19 examined by his criteria, and he doesn't say what 20 his x-ray reading criteria were, had pulmonary 21 asbestosis in over half. 22 Q. And I wanted to get at this point of 23 underreporting of cases. Does that mean that if 2 4 other diagnostic criteria were used, there may be even more asbestosis among that group of workers? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011684 1 Lewinsohn 184 2 A. That's his conclusion; whether he is 3 right or wrong, I don't know because his reading 4 of the x-rays may be faulty, so he may have 5 overread his films and have more cases if he is 6 using solely radiologic criteria. 7 Q. Right or wrong, that at least is what 8 he was reporting and publishing in the Annals of 9 the New York Academy of Science in 1965, correct? 10 A. That was- Dr. Selikoff's opinion in 3 11 1965 . 12 Q. I think you told us earlier that you 13 considered, and I guess consider now his published 14 work to be authoritative? 15 A. I do. 16 Q. Because of the presence with him of 17 Dr. Cuyler Hammond? 18 A. Right. 19 Q. And Dr. Cuyler Hammond is a co-author 20 on this paper, isn't he? 21 A. Sure, but that doesn't mean to say I 22 have to agree with everything that is written. 23 Q. If I could just summarize this, the . ^ 24 papers that we just looked at, Deposition Exhibits 25 4, 5 and 6, by Dr. Selikoff were all papers which DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011685 1 Lewinsohn 185 2 were presented in 1965 or published in 1964 and 3 1965 in connection with this conference on 4 asbestos and disease held here in New York City. 5 Would that be fair to say? 6 A. Yes. The general one was not, of 7 course. 8 Q . But - - 9 MR. WILL: I'm not trying to be 10 funny, you've got three articles there that 11 were published in '64 and '65. 12 MR. BROWNSON: Right. . 13 Q. Exhibits 5 and 6 were both papers 14 presented at the asbestos conference in New York 15 City in 1964 and both published in 1965 by the New 16 York Academy of Sciences, right? 17 A. Right. 18 Q. And that conference on asbestos in 19 1964 in New York City received wide publicity, did 20 it not? 21 A. Yes, Dr. Selikoff saw to that. 22 Q. He was something of a publicity hound 23 with respect to asbestos? 24 A. He sure was. 25 Q. With respect to his work on asbestos DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011686 1 Lewinsohn 186 2 and disease? 3 A. Yes . 4 Q. And at that time in 1964 and 1965, 5 didn't Union Carbide have its medical department 6 in New York City? 7 A. Again, I wasn't with Union Carbide in 8 1964, '65, but Union Carbide's headquarters were 9 in New York City. 10 Q. And was its medical director at the 11 headquarters in New York City or someplace else? 12 A. I don't know. I would think he was, 13 but I don't know. 14 Q- After you left Turner Brothers in 15 1976, you went to Raybestos-Manhattan Company? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. Where were they located? 18 A. Headquartered in Trumbull, 19 Connecticut. 20 Q. So at that point in 1976, you left 21 England for the United States? 22 A. That is true. 23 Q. Went to work for Raybestos- Manhattan 24 in Trumbull,, Connecticut? 25 A. Yes. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011687 1 Lewinsohn 187 2 Q. At that time, they were a 3 manufacturer of various asbestos products, were 4 they not? 5 A. Friction materials, basically. 6 Q. 7 brakes ? By friction materials, we mean 8 A. Caskets, clutches, yes. 9 Q. What were your duties with 10 Raybestos-Manhattan when you started with them in 11 1976? 12 A. I was asked to come to 13 Raybestos-Manhattan to help them develop their 14 medical surveillance program for asbestos workers. 15 Basically that was my main role. 16 Q. And how long did you work for 17 Raybestos-Manhattan? 18 A. I would say about four years, I left 19 there in 1981. 20 Q. And when you left in 1981, you went 21 to work for Perkin-Elmer Corporation in Norwalk, 22 Connecticut ? 23 A. Right. 24 Q. You worked there for one year? 25 A. For one year. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011688 1 Lewinsohn 188 2 Q. What did you do for them? 3 A. They had again not had a full-time 4 corporate medical director before and I went to 5 establish a medical program for them. 6 Q. Did that have anything to do with 7 asbestos workers? 8 A. Nothing whatever. 9 Q. Weren't they some kind of an optical 10 company? 11 A. Electrical optical manufacturing 12 company. 13 Q. And then in 1982, you went to work 14 for Union Carbide Corporation? 15 A. That is correct. 16 Q. At Danbury, Connecticut? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. You stayed at Union Carbide in one 19 capacity or another until your retirement in 1992 20 that you told us about earlier? 21 A. That's true. 22 Q. And at all times that you were with 23 Union Carbide from 1982 to 1992, were you located * 24 at Danbury, Connecticut? 25 A. Yes. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011689 1 Lewinsohn 189 2 Q. And as I understand, you were 3 attached to different divisions within the company 4 during those years, but were your duties generally 5 the same or did they change over time? 6 A. They -- I'm not being facetious, but 7 the answer is yes and no. They stayed essentially 8 the same. No, they didn't change. They stayed 9 essentially the same; yes, there was some 10 modifications from time to time in my duties. 11 Q. Did your duties during that those 12 years from 1982 do 1992 with Union Carbide include 13 the area of asbestos and disease? 14 MR. GERSON: At any point during 15 that time? 16 MR. BROWNSON: Right. 17 A. Between 1982 and 1992? 18 Q. Right. 19 A. Very peripherally. You know, it 20 was -- I did not have a functional responsibility 21 of any kind for any of the asbestos division, or 22 you knowm - - 23 Q. Let me ask you this, during those 10 24 years from 1982 to 1992 with Union Carbide, did % 25 your duties include looking at workers in various DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011690 Lewinsohn 190 Union Carbide plants who may have been exposed to asbestos in the plants? A. Did I look at the workers? Q. Right. A. I never actually examined any 7 workers. I did -- I believe probably shortly 8 before the King City operation was divested or 9 sold off or whatever happened to it, I was asked 10 to review the some of the records of the workers 11 in that facility to see whether there was any 12 evidence of health effects. 13 Q. I am confining my questions to the 14 moment not to King City workers, but workers in 15 other Union Carbide plants or facilities. 16 A. No, the answer still is no. 17 Q. For example, the answer probably will 18 remain the same, but let me try to explain what I 19 am getting at. 20 Union Carbide had plants in West 21 Virginia where they made chemicals and workers in 22 those plants may or may not have been exposed to 23 asbestos pipe covering, for example. And my 24 question goes to whether you had any duties or did 25 any work with respect to workers of that type who DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011691 1 Lewinsohn 191 2 were in some Union Carbide facilities but may have 3 been exposed to asbestos? 4 MR. GERSON: You're talking about 5 direct examinations of individuals? 6 MR. BROWNSON: Yes, let's start with 7 that. 8 A. Union Carbide had physicians, 9 full-time physicians at its major plants, were 10 responsible for the day-to-day provision of 11 services to the employees. 12 Q. So you would not have seen such 13 employees to do medical evaluations? 14 A. My role was essentially an 15 administrative role at headquarters. 16 MR. WILL: The answer was no. I 17 know you are in a hurry, but when he said 18 did you not see any workers, you can just 19 say no. I know you're in a hurry. 20 Q. So you didn't permanently see or 21 treat workers in a medical capacity while you at 22 the headquarters in Danbury, Connecticut; you were 23 in more of an administrative capacity? 24 A. That's true. 25 Q. And in that capacity at the DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011692 1 Lewinsohn 192 2 headquarters at Danbury, Connecticut, did you do 3 any epidemiological work concerning workers in 4 Union Carbide plants or facilities other than the 5 King City? Put that aside for the moment. 6 A. Yes, I did at one -- not published 7 work, but purely to assess the value of a 8 computerized medical record-keeping system that 9 had been in use for some time, together with the 10 epidemiologist at Union Carbide, we looked at the 11 data that had been accumulated in that system and 12 we chose asbestos workers; but that was a -- 13 regulated because that was a regulated group of 14 people and they were clear-cut parameters that, we 15 could look for. 16 But that was not a published work; it 17 was simply a quality assurance type of exercise. 18 Q. By 1982 when you came to Union 19 Carbide, would it be fair to say that Union 20 Carbide workers in various Union Carbide plants 21 were covered by OSHA asbestos regulations as they 22 may apply to their jobs in the plants? 23 MR. GERSON: When you say covered by . 24 OSHA regulations, what does that mean? 25 A. I think you have to be more specific. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. {212)867-8220 UCAREF00011693 1 Lewinsohn 193 2 Q. Union Carbide, for example, and I 3 don't want to dwell on this, but for example. 4 Union Carbide had plants at Institute, West 5 Virginia and West Carlton, West Virginia and in 6 those plants, I guess, because plaintiffs' lawyers 7 now claim this, there were various workers who 8 used pipe covering and insulation and that sort of 9 thing. And what I am wondering is when you came 10 to the company in 1982, if you understood that 11 workers in Union Carbide plants who were using 12 asbestos or working with asbestos would be covered 13 by OSHA regulations? 14 A. Let me put it this way. 15 The OSHA standard requires has a 16 permissible exposure level, PEL, and it also as an 17 action level. The action level triggers when 18 medical surveillance is required. 19 The regulations would apply if the 20 permissible exposure level were exceeded. 21 It was my understanding that the 22 permissible exposure level was not being exceeded, 23 but that as a purely, what's the word, 24 precautionary measure, all persons who were 25 potentially exposed to asbestos were kept under DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011694 1 Lewinsohn 194 2 surveillance at Union Carbide plants. 3 Q. And when you came to the company in 4 1982, were you aware of the fact, of that fact at 5 that point? 6 A. Was I aware of that fact? 7 Q. Yes. 8 A. I soon learned about it, 9 Q. When you came to Union Carbide, did 10 you make some inquiry to learn those sorts of 11 facts or did that just come to your attention in 12 the course of your work, or how did that happen? 13 A. Well, I went around all of the sites 14 and was shown the operations and learned what was 15 being done, and saw what the medical departments 16 were doing and looked at their records and asked 17 questions. . 18 I got how many people were exposed to 19 asbestos, how many were exposed to noise, how many 20 were exposed to benzene, whatever the regulations 21 were in effect I was interested in and involved in 22 and gave advice and guidance on. 23 Q. As part of that education when you 24 toured around to these various facilities, did you 25 learn how long Union Carbide had been doing DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011695 1 Lewinsohn 195 2 surveillance on its workers who were exposed to 3 asbestos? 4 MR. GERSON: Before Dr. Lewinsohn 5 answers, I want to state for the record, if 6 I understand the questions correctly, they 7 all pertain to plans where Calidria was not 8 used, and these questions are not being 9 restricted specifically to Union Carbide 10 employees who may have been exposed to 11 Calidria but rather to other asbestos. And 12 Union Carbide, in - 13 MR. BROWNSON: Any asbestos. 14 MR. GERSON: -- Union Carbide, in 15 past discovery involving interrogatories 16 and production requests, has set forth an 17 objection to the relevancy of expanded 18 inquiries into such areas. So I just want 19 to say we do not waive those objections 20 here at this proceeding by any responses or 21 by allowing the witness to respond for the 22 purposes of expediting discovery. 23 And in fact we very much maintain 24 objections to inquiries as to conditions in 25 Union Carbide facilities or pertaining to DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011696 1 Lewinsohn 196 2 Union Carbide employees where Calidria- was 3 not in use and who were not exposed to 4 Calidria. 5 In the interest of time, I won't 6 reiterate that objection to each question, 7 but as long as it's understood that the 8 objection stands generally. 9 MR. BROWNSON: Subject to that 10 objection, do you have the question in 11 mind? 12 THE WITNESS: I'd have to have the 13 question repeated, please. 14 MR. BROWNSON: Let me rephrase the 15 question. 16 And I'll understand that this 17 objection will continue to apply so we 18 don't have to waste time. 19 MR. WILL: One more preliminary 20 matter. At one point you were asking him 21 to consider everything other than the King 22 City plant and King City operation. Are we 23 still in that mode at this point? 24 MR. BROWNSON: Yes, let me rephrase 25 the question subject to Mr. Gerson's DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011697 1 Lewinsohn 197 2 objection. 3 Q. At the time after you started with 4 Union Carbide in 1982, as you became educated 5 about what was going on in the various plants and 6 facilities other than King City, we will go on and 7 talk about that, did you learn how long Union 8 Carbide had been doing medical surveillance on 9 employees in its plants who were exposed to 10 asbestos? 11 A. In all honesty, I can't say -- I 12 can't say -- I can't say I was interested in that. ' 13 Q. So as you sit here today, you don't 14 know how long Union Carbide may or may not have 15 been doing that in its various plants? 16 A. I don't know exactly for how long 17 they were doing it, I simply know that what I 18 examined was as far back as I could into the 19 computerized medical record keeping system, which 20 I believe started in 1975 or thereabouts. 21 Q. Do you know if employees at the King 22 City mine and mill were entered into the Union 6 23 Carbide computerized records system? * 24 25 A. I don't know. A. I don't know. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011698 1 Lewinsohn 198 2 Q. Did you at some point after beginning 3 with Union Carbide in 1982 visit the King City 4 mine and/or mill? 5 A. I only visited King City on one 6 occasion. 7 Q. When was that? 8 A. That was when I was asked to go down 9 there and review the x-rays of the work force just 10 prior to the divestiture of that operation. 11 Q. Now, I understand that Union Carbide 12 sold the King City asbestos operation, if we can 13 call it that to save time, at some point in the 14 mid 1980s, is that correct? 15 A. The exact date, I don't remember. 16 I'm sorry. 17 MR. GERSON: We can stipulate it Was 18 sold on June 30, 1985. 19 Q. June 30, 1985 it was sold to a 20 company called King City Asbestos Company. You 21 know that now that we've been informed by Mr. 22 Gerson? 23 MR. GERSON: No, no, I didn't inform 24 you of the name to which it was sold, which 25 I actually think it is KCAC. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011699 1 Lewinsohn 199 2 MR. BROWNSON: KCAC, Inc. I Chink it 3 is . 4 A. I now know that, thank you. 5 Q. Whatever it is, you were asked to go 6 review x-rays of workers at some point just before 7 this sale took place, is that right? 8 A. That's my recollection. 9 Q. And do you know who asked you to do 10 that ? 11 A. Yes. It was at the request of Mr. 12 Meyers. He was at that time the plant manager 13 Q. John Meyers? 14 A. John Meyers, I think was his name _ 15 Q. Do you know why John Meyers asked you 16 to do that? 17 A. I think it was part of the due 18 diligence process. 19 Q. In connection with the sale? 20 A. In connection with the sale, one 21 reason. 22 Q. First of all, Mr. Meyers is one o f 23 the people who somehow is affiliated with KCAC and 24 continues to be out there at the present time; is 25 that right? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011700 1 Lewinsohn 200 2 A. I don't know the business 3 arrangements that were struck after the 4 divestiture. 5 Q. But in any event, it's your 6 understanding that in connection with the sale, 7 that there needed to be a disclosure, what you 8 call due diligence of certain information about 9 the company, and do you understand that that is 10 one of the reasons you were asked to look at the 11 workers? 12 A. I think there was a point in time ' 13 when all of that was happening and one of the 14 points of interest was whether there were any 15 health problems among the workers. 16 Q. And at that time, did you review the 17 air measurements, asbestos air measurements that 18 had been taken at King City, at the mine or mill? 19 A. I remember reviewing quite a lot of 20 information from the mine and the mill, but I 21 think -- I must have -- I was shown air 22 measurements, I don't remember what they were and 23 I don't, you know, the actual numerical values, I 24 can't tell you. . 25 Q. Do you remember when you were shown DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011701 1 Lewinsohn 201 2 the air measurements if any of them exceeded the 3 applicable OSHA standard at the time they were 4 taken? 5 A. I don't believe they did. 6 Q. And were they air measurements kept 7 in the mill at King City or where were they kept? 8 MR. GERSON: You're asking about 9 generally where they were kept or where 10 they were kept when he saw them? 11 MR. BROWNSON: When he saw them. 12 A. I don't remember. 13 Q. Do you remember speaking to any of 14 the industry hygienists at Union Carbide in 15 connection with this investigation you did about 16 air levels at King City at either the mine or 17 mill? ` 18 MR. WILL: He didn't say he did any 19 investigation of the air levels. 20 MR. BROWNSON: No, no, and I didn't 21 mean to imply that he investigated the air 22 levels. Let me rephrase the question. 23 Q. In connection with your investigation 24 in looking at x-rays, that is what I understand 25 you did, right? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011702 1 Lewinsohn 202 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. In connection with that work, did you 4 speak to any of the industrial hygienists 5 concerning air levels at the mine or mill in King 6 City? 7 A. I did not attempt any correlation 8 between my readings and air levels, so I don't 9 believe that I spoke to anybody. 10 Q. Did you ask to see x-rays of any 7 11 particular workers or just of all workers or how 12 did that work? 13 A. Well, it was nearly 10 years ago. 14 Q. As best as you recall. 15 A. And I did write a report on my 16 findings. And without that in front of me, at 17 this moment in time, I would have difficulty in 18 recollecting the selection criteria for the group 19 of people whose x-rays I reviewed. 20 But they were a group that was 21 selected for me, with my collaboration by the 22 physician who did the medical surveillance down 23 there, and the radiology department at the local y 24 hospital where the x-rays were taken. And 25 management had provided me with the names. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011703 1 Lewinsohn 203 2 Q. So there was a doctor or a physician 3 in King City who had been doing surveillance on 4 the workers as I understand it, correct? 5 A. There was a physician who was a part 6 time, not full time, who did the medical 7 surveillance examinations on the workers. 8 Q. And the x-rays were taken at the King 9 City hospital? 10 A. If that is what the hospital was 11 called. It was a local hospital. 12 Q. Let me ask you this: When you went 13 out there, where were the x-rays? Were they just 14 handed to you or did you have to go down to the 15 hospital or what did you have to do? 16 A. I believe that ahead of my visit all 17 of the x-rays had been pulled, and I had -- I had 18 a room in the radiology department set aside where 19 I spent a day or two reading the x-rays. 20 Q. And do you know how many x-rays you 21 read? 22 A. I think I read approximately a 23 hundred, maybe more. 24 Q. And do you know how many workers were represented by those x-rays? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 . UCAREF00011704 1 Lewinsohn 204 2 A. As I said, without actually having 3 the demographic statistics in front of me, I have 4 difficulty recalling. 5 Q. So you wrote it up in a report and 6 would you defer to what is written in your report? 7 A. I would like to. 8 Q. For the exact data? 9 A. I'd like to. 10 Q. Unfortunately, I don't have the 11 report here and - - 12 MR. BROWNSON: In fact, I don't know 13 that I have ever seen that report. Have we 14 seen that, Trevor? 15 MR. WILL: You got me. 16 MR. BROWNSON: You probably have, I 17 haven't. 18 Do you have that report? 19 MR. WILL: Off the record. 20 (Discussion off the record) 21 MR. BROWNSON: Back on the record. 22 Before we continue, for some reason 23 I don't have his report about the King City 24 workers, but I guess, Alan, I can get that 25 from you. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011705 1 Lewinsohn 205 2 MR. GERSON: Yes. The reason you 3 don't have it is because I don't think you 4 requested Dr. Lewinsohn's reports, and we 5 will certainly, now that you are requesting 6 it, make it available. 7 Generally we have already offered to 8 make our entire repository available, but 9 we will now make this specific document 10 available to you. 11 MR. BROWNSON: Anyway, let's try to 12 forge ahead here. 13 Q. So we were talking about your review 14 of the x-rays of King City workers and do you know 15 if the x-rays you reviewed -- first of all, you 16 reviewed about 100 x-rays, and we'll defer to the 17 report for the exact numbers, but do you know if 18 they were x-rays for about 100 workers or do you 19 believe there were - 20 A. I believe I reviewed the first, last 21 and penultimate on each worker, something like 22 that. I didn't review the entire series of every 23 worker. I think I reviewed -- and I think that 24 was my method. 25 Q. So when you say the first x-ray, I DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011706 1 Lewinsohn 206 2 assume you 3 A. The first available. 4 Q. The last x-ray would be the last 5 available? 6 A. Yes . 7 Q. And then what is the penultimate 8 x-ray? 9 A. One before that. 10 Q. Second to the last? 11 A. Second to the last. 12 Q- So again, we'll defer to the exact 13 numbers in 14 approximate 15 A. 100 people of x-rays. 16 Q. So you reviewed? 17 A. More than 100 x-rays. 18 Q. You reviewed the x-rays of 19 approximat r 100 people? 20 A. I believe so. 21 Q. And that would amount to somewhere in 22 the neighb lood of 300 x-rays? 23 A. I believe so. 24 Q. And do you know if when you reviewed 25 those x-ra DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011707 1 Lewinsohn 207 2 films out with you to compare? 3 A. I always use the IOL films to 4 compare. 8 5 Q. And you'll have to pardon me on this, 6 but how do you do that? Do you just say the IOL 7 film up in the shadow box and put the worker films 8 next to it? 9 A. What I usually do is put up the IOL 10 normal and the IOL minimal changes 10/1 or 1/0. 11 And then I put up an x-ray either on one side of 12 them, between the two, and I compare and if I need 13 to, then I'll put pull out other film and try to 14 match. 15 Q. I understand that you at one time 16 have been a NIOSH "B" reader? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Were you a NIOSH "B" reader at that 19 time? 20 A. No, I don't think so. 21 Q. Had you been a NIOSH "B" reader 22 before you read those films or is that something 23 that you got after that time? - 24 25 A. No, before. Q. Do you remember when you got that DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011708 Lewinsohn 208 certification as a NIOSH "B" reader? A. Not exactly, but I think it was while I was at Raybestos. Q. But in any event, you had your standard IOL films with you when you went out to King City? A. And I still have them with me today. yes . Q. Do you remember as you sit here today whether any of the hundred or so workers whose films you looked at in King City had pulmonary asbestosis? A. I didn't see any films with pulmonary asbestosis to the best of my recollection. Q. And - - MR. GERSON: Could we break for 30 seconds? MR. BROWNSON: Sure. (Recess taken.) Q. Before we had our break, we just talked about how in reviewing the x-rays of King City worker, you didn't find any pulmonary asbestosis among those workers, correct? A. That's my recollection. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011709 1 Lewinsohn 209 2 Q. When you say -- and again, we'll 3 defer to your report for exact details, but I'm 4 asking as you recall as you sit here today? 5 A. As I recall, yes. 6 Q. When you say you didn't find 7 pulmonary asbestosis, what do you mean by 8 pulmonary asbestosis? 9 A. I didn't find any radiological 10 evidence consistent with the diagnosis of 11 asbestosis if you were to use the UICC -- sorry, 12 IOL classification greater than 1/0. 13 Q. So you saw no x-rays that you would 14 have read as greater than 1/0 among those workers? 15 A. As to the best of my recollection, 16 yes. 17 Q. Did you see any x-rays that showed 18 any sort of changes that could be or any sort of 19 changes that you read as asbestos - related changes 20 that didn't rise to the level of asbestosis? 21 A. I don't remember, I don't think so 22 but I don't remember. 23 Q. Do you remember if you saw any 24 pleural thickening on any of those x-rays? 25 A. I believe I did see some pleural DOYLE REPORTING, INC.. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011710 1 Lewinsohn 210 2 chickening, but there were other reasons for it 3 Q. So in the cases where you recall 4 seeing thickening, you also recall those cases 5 having some other reason for the pleural 6 thickening? 7 A. Right. 8 MR. GERSON: Reason other than? 9 MR. BROWNSON: Asbestos. 10 A. Other than asbestos. 11 Q. Do you remember as you sit here today 12 what those other reasons were? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Do you remember if you saw any IS pleural plaques on any of those x-rays? 16 A. I don't think I did, but I don't 17 remember. 18 Q. Again, if you would have seen pleural 19 plaques or pleural thickening, would that be 20 indicated on your report? 21 A. Yes . 22 Q. First of all, were the x-rays dated, 23 so you could tell when they were taken? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And at that time, around 1985 when DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011711 1 Lewinsohn 211 2 you were out there, was there some sort of regular 3 x-ray program in place for the King City workers? 4 A. Yes, they were being kept under 5 surveillance, I recall, as outlined in the 6 asbestos standard, the OSHA standard. 7 Q. The OSHA standard? 8 A. Yes . 9 Q. Do you know if they were kept under 10 surveillance because there were airborne asbestos 11 levels above the OSHA action level? 12 A. No, they were kept under surveillance 13 because they were working with an asbestos 14 material and asbestos product. 15 Q. And as you can recall as you sit here 16 today, what were the last x-rays that were taken 17 of these men at the time you looked at them? Were 18 they relatively recent at that time or had they 19 been taken some years before? 20 A. No, they were current. 21 Q- And again as you recall, were these 22 men given annual chest x-rays at that time? 23 A. I think so, but I don't remember. 24 Q. So all of these questions are in 25 general terms because I understand you don't have DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011712 1 Lewinsohn 212 2 an exact recollection, but would it be fair to say 3 that the last x-rays that you looked at at that 4 point in time were relatively recent, of about a 5 year or so of when you had read them? 6 A. I believe so. 7 Q. And then the penultimate x-ray or the 8 next to last would be maybe about a year before 9 that? 10 A. Probably, yes. 11 Q. Again, in general terms, when were 12 the first X- rays from, do you recall? 13 A. I don't recall specifically, but all 14 I can say is they would have been the first 15 available X- ray after hire or at the time of hire 16 Q. Do you have any recollection as to 17 the average lengths of service of the men whose 18 x-rays you read? 19 A. Not really. 20 Q. 21 was open? Do you know when the King City mill 22 A. No. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. Again, that is one of the questions 25 would probably ask about , in the introduction to DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867 - 8220 UCAREF00011713 Lewinsohn 2 13 my report might have said this has been here- since-- Q. Do you recall if there were any men in the group whose x-rays you read who had worked at the mine or mill for more than 10 years? A. Quite honestly, I have to say no, I can't recall. Q. Have you ever read a report by NIOSH concerning asbestos air levels in the King City plant that was done around 1983? A. By NIOSH? Q. NIOSH. A. Again, I don't know. Q. This report that you issued concerning the x-rays of the King City workers, to whom was that report issued, or to whom was it addressed? A. I was asked to do it by Mr. Meyers; I would have reported to him. Q. And as far as you know, is that the only survey of its type of the x-rays of the King City workers or had there been others done by other people? MR. GERSON: I guess I object to the DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011714 1 Lewinsohn 214 2 ambiguity of its type. If you want to 3 rephrase. 4 Q. What I am wondering is do you know if 5 anyone other than you ever looked at all of the 6 King City x-rays that you did and surveyed them 7 to - - 8 A. I was told, and I believe this was 9 maybe after I had even left Carbide, I don't know, 10 that the x-rays -- that the x-rays had been looked 11 at in the similar fashion after I had done that 12 by - - I can see that -- Sawyers, Bob Sawyers. 13 Q. By Sawyers? 14 A. Dr. Sawyers. 15 Q. Robert Sawyers? 16 A. Robert Sawyers. 17 Q And do you know when that was done? 18 A. It was after I did it. And I don' t 19 know how he came to it, I know he did. 20 Q. Have you seen any report that Dr. 21 Sawyers issued? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Dr. Sawyers has been listed as an 24 expert by Union Carbide in this case, I think. 25 MR. BROWNSON: Hasn't he? I think DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011715 1 Lewinsohn 215 2 he was. 3 Q. Do you know if the survey of King 4 City x-rays that Dr. Sawyers did was in connection 5 with any litigation arising out of exposure to 6 Calidria asbestos? 7 A. I don't know why Dr. Sawyers was 8 asked to review those cases. 9 Q. Did you understand that the x-rays 10 that you reviewed were x-rays of all workers who 11 were currently employed at King City at the mine 12 or mill? 13 A. To the best of my recollection, the 14 x-rays I had reviewed were of current workers. 15 Q. Do you know if there were x-rays kept 16 at King City of workers who left their employment 17 in earlier years? 18 A. The OSHA standard requires that 19 x-rays and medical records be retained for the 20 duration of employment plus 30 years, and in the 21 case of asbestos 40 years, so I would sincerely 22 hope that they were. 23 Q. Do you know where those x-rays are 24 maintained or were maintained at that time? 25 A. At the local hospital in the DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011716 10 9 ** 1 Lewinsohn 216 2 department of radiology, if they were maintained. 3 Q. And did you make any survey or 4 reading of those x-rays? 5 A. No, as far as I'm aware. 6 Q. Do you know if Dr. Sawyers reviewed 7 those x-rays? 8 A. I don't know exactly what Dr. Sawyers 9 did. 10 Q. Have you ever looked at x-rays of any 11 workers other than workers at King City who have 12 been exposed to Calidria asbestos? 13 A. No. 14 Q. And I'm not talking about just Union 15 Carbide workers; I'm talking about anybody; it 16 could be a Conwed worker? 17 A. No. 18 Q. While we are on that topic, have you 19 looked at any of the medical record or x-rays of 20 any Conwed workers? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Do you know what Conwed is? 23 A. Not really. 24 Q. If I told you it was a company that 25 made ceiling tile up in Cokato, Minnesota, had you DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011717 1 Lewinsohn 217 2 ever heard of that before? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Do you know if while you were at 5 Union Carbide from 1982 to 1992, if there was any 6 epidemiological work of any kind done on the 7 workers of Union Carbide customers who used 8 Calidria asbestos? 9 A. I can't say that I was aware of any. 10 Q. Are you aware of the fact that over 11 the years Union Carbide industrial hygienists took 12 various air measurements at Union Carbide calidria 13 customers' locations? 14 A. I was I know that Union Carbide 15 industrial hygienists took samples at many of 16 Union Carbide customers for various purposes. 17 Q. Have you ever seen any of those? 18 A. I don't remember seeing any of those, 19 insofar as Calidria is concerned. 20 Q. Right, Calidria is what I am talking 21 about. 22 Do you know if anyone has read the 23 x-rays in the manner that you did on the King City 24 workers where you looked at a bunch of x-rays on a 25 number of workers, for workers at the Johns DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011718 1 Lewinsohn 218 2 Manville mine at Coalinga. California? 3 A. I have no idea. 4 Q. How about the Atlas asbestos mines at 5 Coalinga? 6 A. I don't know anything about those two 7 mines. 8 Q. Do you have any information about the 9 current activity of the California board of air 10 resources Superfund activity at Coalinga? 11 A. I've heard something about it, but 12 I'm not familiar with the details. 13 Q. And when you say you've heard 14 something about it, was that more or less in IS passing or have you heard it in connection with 16 some work you have been doing? 17 A. Yes, more or less in passing. 18 Q. Do you have an understanding that 19 some governmental body in California is attempting 20 to claim that the Supertene department in 21 Coalinga, California poses some sort of health 22 hazard because it's getting into the air or water 23 out there? 24 A. That's what I've heard. 25 Q. Other than that do you have any DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011719 1 Lewinsohn 219 2 information about that? 3 A. No. 4 Q. What do you think of that claim? 5 A. I'd rather not answer. 6 Q. Is that because you just have 7 insufficient information? 8 A. I have insufficient information. 9 Q. I wanted to show you a - 10 MR. BROWNSON: I guess I'll have 11 this marked. It has previously been marked 12 as Hall Deposition Exhibit 18 in another 13 case called the Manny Stowe case. 14 (Whereupon, document titled "Mellon 15 Institute Special Report: The Fibrogenic 16 Potential of Asbestos Products via 17 Intraperitoneal Injection in Guinea Pigs, 18 Rats and Rabbits and by the Intratracheal 19 Route in the Rat" marked Lewinsohn Exhibit 20 7 for identification as of this date.) 21 Q. I'm showing you what has been marked 22 as Lewinsohn Exhibit 7 and I'll ask you if have 23 you ever seen that before? 24 A. I honestly don't know. 25 Q. And just for the record, it's titled, DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011720 11 - 1 Lewinsohn 220 2 "Mellon Institute Special Report: The Fibrogenic 3 Potential of Asbestos Products Via Intraperitoneal 4 Injection in Guinea Pigs, Rats and rabbits, and by 5 the Intratracheal Route in the Rat." 6 Did I read that correctly? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And it's dated July 8, 1966? 9 A. Right. 10 Q. And why don't you just take a minute 11 and just skim through it there. 12 A. This obviously is a lot to read here 13 and to digest. I've skimmed it. 14 Q. First of all, having now skimmed that 15 report which is Deposition Exhibit 7, do you have 16 any recollection of seeing that before today? 17 A. To be quite honest, no. 18 Q. First of all, that report seems to be 19 some sort of report concerning intraperitoneal 20 injection of asbestos in these various animals, 21 rats, guinea pigs and rabbits. 22 Is that right? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. And do you remember when you began 25 work in Union Carbide in 1982, if you had made any DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011721 1 Lewinsohn 22 1 2 sort of survey or investigation of the Union 3 Carbide materials which would have disclosed some 4 of this old material like this exhibit we're 5 looking at now? 6 MR. WILL: You mean did he go look 7 through the files to see what documents 8 there were about asbestos? 9 MR. BROWNSON: Right, right. 10 A. No, I didn't do that. I -- I 11 restricted my searches to necessity, when I needed 12 something I would see if it was there. 13 Q. Obviously this thing is dated 1966, 14 and you began with the company in 1982? 15 A. '82. 16 Q. So this was done well before you 17 started there? 18 MR. WILL: Remember, he was not 19 directly responsible for anything having to 20 do with asbestos. 21 MR. BROWNSON: I understand that. I 22 understand that. 23 Q. My question is: As you recall it, 24 you didn't make any sort of search of the Union 25 Carbide documents for old asbestos reports or DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011722 > r> 1 Lewinsohn 222 2 other reports of this type? 3 A. No. 4 Q. And at the time that you started at 5 Union Carbide in 1982, was there somebody else in 6 the medical department who was directly 7 responsible for the asbestos business, the 8 Calidria business? 9 A. Yes. lO- Q. Who was that? ll A. I believe it was Dr. Fortney. 12 Q. Fortney? 13 A. F-o-r-t-n-e-y. 14 Q. Is he still with the company? 15 A. No. 16 Q- Was he at Danbury, Connecticut with 17 you or where was he located? 18 A. When I first started at Union 19 Carbide, he was located in Indianapolis. 20 Q. Indianapolis . 21 Up until the time that Union Carbide 22 sold the asbestos business in 1975, was Dr. 23 Fortney the person in the medical department who 24 was in charge of that? 25 A. Yes . DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011723 1 Lewins ohn 223 2 Q. When you began with the company in 3 1982, did you know at that point in time that 4 Union Carbide had thi9 asbestos business with 5 Calidria asbestos with the Coaling mine and the 6 mill? 7 A. Well, during my orientation process, 8 I learned about the various Carbide businesses. 9 So I had - - I knew of the existence of the King 10 City. 11 Q. Before you started at Union Carbide 12 in 1982, did you know about it or is that 13 something that you learned after you joined the 14 company? 15 A. Before I started with Union Carbide, 16 I knew that Union Carbide had an interest in 17 asbestos; I wasn't that much concerned about what 18 it was. 19 Q. And based upon your own past 20 experience at the pneumoconioses unit at Turner 21 Brothers and at Raybestos-Manhattan, did you 22 yourself have a particular interest in Union 23 Carbide's asbestos business when you began there 24 in 1982? . 25 A. When I began at Union Carbide in DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011724 1 Lewina ohn 224 2 1982, asbestos was the furthest thing from my 3 mind. 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. I had no - - I didn't go to Union 6 Carbide because of asbestos if that is your 7 question. . 8 Q. Did you go to Union Carbide to get 9 away from asbestos? 10 A. No, I went do Union Carbide to earn 11 my living. 12 Q. At the time that you were with 13 Raybestos-Manhattan, had there been any claims 14 made against that company for personal injuries IS arising out of asbestos exposure legal claims? 16 A. Are you talking about workers 17 compensation or are you talking about, you 18 know, -- 19 Q. I am talking about lawsuits. 20 A. Lawsuits. 21 A. Yes, Raybestos-Manhattan I believe 22 was involved in litigation. 23 Q. And as part of your duties at L 24 Raybestos-Manhattan, did you work on that 25 litigation or was that outside of your area? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011725  12 . 1 Lewinsohn 225 2 A. Not really on the litigation, no. I 3 would occasionally be asked for an opinion or 4 advice, but I wasn't directly involved. 5 MR. BROWNSON: Let me do this. 6 We've got a little while here. Let me just 7 change the subject a little bit since I 9 can't finish, but I wanted to ask you about 9 one thing. 10 Q. You have been listed by Mr. Will as a 11 possible expert witness in this particular case. 12 Do you have any understanding as you 13 sit here today what opinions you would be asked to 14 offer on behalf of Union Carbide in this case? 15 A. As I sit here today, my understanding 16 is that the opinions I would be asked to offer 17 would be in connection with the my practical 18 knowledge and experience of asbestos and health 19 and all of its aspects. 20 Q. So as far as you know, and again, I 21 suppose this is subject to change, but as far as 22 you know, you will not be asked to give opinions 23 about the medical conditions of particular Conwed 24 workers? At least you haven't been told that so 25 far? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011726 1 Lewinsohn 226 2 A. As far as I know, that is not what I 3 am being asked to do. 4 Q. And do you hold an opinion as to the 5 toxicity or biological potential of Calidria 6 asbestos or its ability to cause disease? 7 A. I hold an opinion, yes. 8 Q. When was that opinion first formed, 9 if you can recall? 10 A. Some time during my tenure with Union 11 Carbide as I from time to time was consulted about 12 the health effects of asbestos, and in particular 13 reference to comparison with Calidria, I formed an 14 opinion. 15 Q. During the 10 years you were with 16 Union Carbide from 1982 to 1992, did people within 17 the company consult you about the health effects 18 of asbestos because of your prior experience and 19 background? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. So even though it was this other 22 doctor -- and I didn't make a note of his name? 23 A. Fortney. 24 Q. Fortney, who wasin charge of the 25 asbestos business, so to speak, until1985, people DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011727 1 Lewinsohn 227 2 at Union Carbide would consult you as well on 3 asbestos issues? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Did Dr. Fortney ever consult with you 6 about the Calidria asbestos? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Have you ever worked done any work in 9 connection with any lawsuits other than this one 10 in which the issue of health effects from Calidria 11 asbestos were involved? 12 A. Not that Iknow of. 13 Q. What istheopinion that you have 14 about the health effects of Calidria asbestos? 15 MR. WILL: That's's pretty broad 16 question. 17 MR. BROWNSON: Well, we have to get 18 at it somehow. 19 A. It's my opinion that the physical 20 chemical properties of Calidria asbestos are such 21 as to make it extremely unlikely under normal 22 working conditions to produce any significant 23 health effects. 24 Q. Are you saying by that that it would 25 be impossible to get asbestosis from Calidria DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011728 1 Lewinsohn 228 2 asbestos under any circumstances? 3 A. I didn't say it was impossible under 4 any circumstances, but I'm saying that under any 5 normal working conditions. 6 Q. Are you saying that under normal 7 working conditions, it's impossible to get 8 asbestosis or unlikely that you would get 9 asbestosis? 10 A. I'm saying it's extremely unlikely. 11 Q. And when you say normal working 12 conditions, what do you mean by that? 13 A. Where there is not gross overexposure 14 to an overwhelming -- let me rephrase that. 15 Where there is not gross overexposure 16 to a concentration of fibers that would totally 17 overwhelm the normal body defense mechanisms. 18 Q. And do you have an opinion as to what 19 fiber level that would be? 20 A. I have no idea. 21 MR. BROWNSON: Why don't we continue 22 this. Just a couple of things real quick. 23 Q. Concerning Dr. Fortney, is he still alive? 25 A. I hope so. r to DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011729 1 Lewinsohn 229 2 Q. Do you know where he is? 3 A. Yes, I do. 4 Q. Where is that? 5 A. Oak Ridge. Oak Ridge, Tennessee. 6 Q. Is is he employed there or is he 7 retired? 8 A. No, he is retired. 9 Q. And how old a man is Dr. Fortney? 10 A. Late '6 0s . 11 Q. Young man. 12 A. Young man. 13 Q. And what is his first name? 14 A. His first initial is T, I don't know 15 what it stands for, Guy, G-u-y, T. Guy Fortney. 16 Q. Do you know if he still maintains his 17 medical license in retirement? 18 A. He does as far as I know. 19 Q Do you know if is he doing any work? 20 A. He is working. 21 Q. Working down in Tennessee? 22 A. Yes . 23 Q. Does he still do any consulting work 24 for Union Carbide? 25 A. I believe he does, yes. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011730 13 * 1 Lewinsohn 230 2 Q. Do you know in if he does any work 3 for Union Carbide at the present time concerning 4 Calidria asbestos issues? 5 A. I don't believe he does. 6 Q. What periods of time was he 7 responsible for the Calidria asbestos business, do 8 you know? 9 MR. GERSON: When you say 10 responsible for the Calidria asbestos 11 business , - - 12 MR. WILL: The medical director for 13 that portion of business? 14 MR. BROWNSON: Right. 15 Q. You had identified him as the person 16 directly responsible in the medical department, 17 I'm wondering what period of time that was. 18 A. I don't know the exact period of time 19 but, or during the time I was there, that was one 20 of his divisions that he had responsibility for. 21 Q. So at least from '82 to '85? 22 A. At least, yes. 23 MR. BROWNSON: I guess that's all I 24 got, other than to say I regret we didn't 25 finish the deposition and what else can I DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011731 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 .8 9 10 11 12 . 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 /$ 2 4 25 Lewinsohn 231 say. MR. GERSON: You have 10 more minutes to finish? MR. BROWNSON: We have a big pile of stuff. (Discussion off the record) MR. WILL: Back on the record. MR. BROWNSON: I'll just state that I haven't completed my questioning and we would like to reconvene the deposition at a time and place convenient to all involved, particularly Dr. Lewinsohn, and that we will give the deposition exhibits to the reporter and she can put them with the transcript. MR. WILL: And I assume that I'll have a chance to ask clarification of . questions when we reconvene since I don't have that chance now? MR. BROWNSON: You can ask whatever you want, but I'll just say I wanted to get a copy of those with my copy of the transcript, too. MR. WILL: Of the exhibits? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011732 1 Lewinsohn 232 2 MR. BROWNSON: Yes. 3 MR. WILL: Yes. 4 (Time noted: 4:10 p.m.) 5 6 ______________________________ 7 8 9 Subscribed and sworn to before me 10 thisday of, 1994. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 y-1 24 25 DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011733 1 2 33 2 3 TIIIAI1 4 5 STATE OF NEW YORK 6 COUNTY OF NEW YORK ) } SS . : ) 7 I, MARIANNE D'AMICO, a 8 Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public within 9 and for the State of New York, do hereby 10 certify: 11 That I reported the proceedings in 12 the within entitled matter, and that the 13 within transcript is a true record of such 14 proceedings. 15 I further certify that I am not 16 related, by blood or marriage, to any of 17 the parties in this matter and that I am 18 in no way interested in the outcome of this 19 matter. 20 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto 21 set my 22 1994 . 23 24 25 UGAREF00011734 1 234 2 February 15, 1994 3 4 Witness I K 2. E X. Page 5 Hilton C. Lewisohn 6 6 axuiaixs. 7 Lewisohn 8 1 9 2 10 Curriculum vitae Medical case from Dr. Cooke For Ident. 12 122 11 3 12 Paper entitled "Medical Surveillance of Asbestos Workers" 126 13 4 14 Paper entitled "Asbestos Exposure and Neoplasia" 169 15 5 16 6 17 18 Paper by Drs. Selikoff, Churg and Hammond 175 Paper presented by Selikoff published Annals of New York of Science in 1965 Dr. in the Academy 178 19 7 20 21 22 23 Document titled "Mellon Institute Special Report (The Fibrogenic Potential Asbestos Products via Intraperitoneal Injection in Guinea Pigs, Rats and Rabbits and by the Intratracheal Route in the Rat)" of 216 24 oOo 25 DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00011735 Corrections to Deposition of Hilton C. Lewinsohn on February 15,1994 I have read the transcript of my deposition on February 15, 1994 and find the contents to be consistent with my recollection of the questions asked and my replies to them. The following is a list of corrections of typographical errors and mis-spelt words. Page 9: Line 12 : amend "services" to service :amend "employer to employee Line 22: insert a comma after employees and change "to" to do Page 13: Line 24: change "as" to jt. and add branch after "country" Line 25: delete "resident, medical" and insert a period after physician. Page 15: Line 9: Insert do after "you" Page 16: Line 12: Line 21: Line 22: Line 23 Insert I was after "months" change "at" to as Insert a comma after "Hospital" and delete "of Insert a comma after "hospital" Page 17: Line 3: Delete "Center'' Line 18: Insert a period after "things" and capitalize the y in You Page 18: Line 13: Line 14: Line 15: Line 18: Insert a comma after "year", delete "when I was at" and substitute during Insert a parenthesis before "that" at the end of the line Insert a parenthesis after "Mines" and delete "and" transpose "these" from after "Now," to after "Johannesburg" Page 23: Line 10: Insert a period after "TB" then start a new sentence with TB Line 18: Change "beds" to bed Page 32: Line 9: Correct spelling from "tenant" to tenens Page 33: Line 18: Insert we between "and" and "also" Page 37: Line 24: Delete "that" Page 40: Line 15: Change "aggressive" to progressive Line 18: Change "alveoli" to axillae Page 42: Line 3: change "found" to fine Line 9: Delete "the" and substitute pathognomonic for "a pathopneumonic" Page 43: Line 11: Line 12: Line 13: Line 14: Insert an after "showed" Change "incidents" to incidence and insert a comma after it, change the next word "in" to an and insert a comma after "cancer" Change "work" to workers and substitute who for "as" Delete "and eventually" and substitute also had Page 44: Line 13: Delete "the" UCAREF00011736 I. Corrections to Deposition of Hilton C. Lewinsohn on February 15,1994 (Continued) Page 50: Line 7: Change "incidents" to incidence Line 22: Change "Penart" to Penarth Page 51: Line 17: Change "suddenly" to certainly Page 52: Line 2: Correct spelling - Merewether Page 53: Line 24: Correct spelling - Merewether Page 54: Line 2: Correct spelling - Merewether Page 55: Line 2: Line 13: Line 14: Change "during" to doing Delete "work" Insert a comma after 'Yorkshire" and delete "Bersk Bershire" and substitute Derbyshire Page 56: Lines 20 and 21 do not make sense and should be deleted. Page 57: Line 4: Correct spelling Furness Line 5: Delete "Bedfordshire" and insert Lancashire instead Page 60: Line 11: The word "No" should be deleted Line 25: Insert and after "time" and not between "were" and "getting" Page 61: Line 7: Delete "scales" in both places and insert exams in both places instead. Page 65: Line 8: Delete "scales" and insert exams instead Page 81: Line 12: Delete "construction" and substitute obstruction for it Page 90: Line 3: Ballast not "ballasts" and laden not "latent" Line 7: Ballast not "ballasts" Page 91: Line 23: Insert before between "was" and "1963" Page 92: Line 16: Delete Tiner" Page 95: Line 2: Une 5; Change "had" to have been " *59" does not seem to be correct and perhaps should be deleted. It is possible that the questioner may have said "around that time". Page 98: Line 21: Change "hydroqenist" to hygienist Page 100: Lines 17 and 20: Change "carting" to carding Page 101: Line 5: Change "hasher" to hopper Line 17: Change "resolved" to revolved Page 102: Lines 9,11,12 and 14: Change "carting" to carding Line 15: Change "parses" to passes UCAREF00011737 . I- Corrections to Deposition of Hilton C. Lewinsohn on February 15,1994 (Continued) Page 103: Line 6: Change "parsed" to passed Page 105: Lines 10,16, and 18: Change "carting" to carding Line 17: Change "cart" (both times in this line) to card Page 106: Line 21: Change "carting" to carding Page 107: Line 10: Change "carting" to carding Line 25: Change "mills" to millions Page 108: Line 4: Change "mill" to million Page 115: Line 7: Change "Swasea" to Swaziland Lines 2 and Line 25: Change "Casio" to Cassiar Page 117: Line 9: Change "business" to advice Page 121: Line 22: Change "Montgomery" to Montague Murray Line 23: Change "Selher's" to Seiler's Page 124: Lines 8,15 and 17: Change "incidents" to incidence Page 125: Lines 20 and 21: Insert the word study after "mortality" in both these lines Page 128: Line 10: Insert a period after "73" and change "in" tojn Line 24: Change "incidents" to incidence Page 131: Line 22: Insert Society after "Hygiene" Page 132: Line 4: Change "105" to 100 and add years after "cc." Line 7: Add years after "cc." Page 133: Lines 3 and 22: Add years after "cc." Page 134: Line 7: Line 14: Line 22: Line 25: Add years after "cc." Delete "Q" Change "incidents" to incidence Change "somewhat" to somewhere Page 136: Line 22: Delete "doesn't" and change "mean" to means Line 23: Change "who had the" to whose Line 24: delete "exposed for", after "years," add that, and after "have" add actually only. This sentence (Lines 22, 23, 24) should now read: That means to say that somebody who worked...whose years since first exposure had been nine years....that they could have actually only been exposed for one year. Page 140: Line 7: Change "IOL" to ILQ UCAREF00011738 Corrections to Deposition of Hilton C. Lewinsohn on February 15,1994 (Continued) Page 145: Line 17: Change "carting" to carding Page 149: Line 16: Delete "other than". (This phrase doesn't make sense to me.) Line 19: "other than" doesn't make sense but OSHA does so i suggest it be inserted instead Page 154: Line 2: Change "Penjab" to Pundsak Lines 5, 7, and 10: Change "Ritsea" to Reitze Line 19: Change "Meriweather" to Merewether Page 160: Line 23: Change "Nicholon" to Nicholson and "Lango" to Lanoer Page 167: Line 16: Change "McVide" to McVitte Page 172: Line 14: Change "by standard" to bystander Page 193: Line 5: Change "West Carlton" to South Charleston Line 16: Change "as" to has Page 206: Line 25: Change "IOL" to ILO Page 207: Line 3: Change "IOL" to |L> Line 10: Change "IOL" to ]LO and "10/1" to Oh Page 208: Line 6: Change "IOL" to ILO Page 209: Line 12: Change "IOL" to ILO Page 218: Line 20: Change "Supertene department" to serpentine deposit 17/W UCAREF00011739