Document 7MDdkakog4aLrrkLQGO6BVGne

;>Vs /. i f U 1 1 IN THE COMMONWEALTH COURT OF PENNSYLVANIA 2 3 PENNSYLVANIA DEPARTMENT OF GENERAL ) SERVICE, PENNSYLVANIA DEPARTMENT ) 4 OF TRANSPORTATION, ) PENNSYLVANIA PUBLIC UTILITY ) 5 COMMISSION, PENNSYLVANIA EMERGENCY ) MANAGEMENT AGENCY, PENNSYLVANIA 6 DEPARTMENT OF STATE, ) ) ) 7 Plaintiffs, ) 8 vs. ') ) 2 84 M.D. 1990 9 UNITED STATES MINERAL PRODUCTS ) ) COMPANY, CERTAINTEED CORPORATION, ) 10 COURTAULDS AEROSPACE, INC; ) CHEMREX, INC.; PHILIPS ELECTRONICS ) 11 NORTH AMERICA CORPORATION, ) ADVANCE TRANSFORMER COMPANY and 12 MONSANTO, ) ) ) 13 Defendants. ) 14 15 Oral deposition of ROGER E. HATTON pursuant 16 to notice, taken at the Ritz Carlton, 100 Carondelet Plaza, St. Louis, Missouri, on Tuesday, 17 June 2, 1998 commencing at 9:00 a.m. by and before Sherri R. Gad, a Certified Shorthand Reporter and 18 Notary Public. 19 20 21 JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES AN ESQUIRE COMMUNICATIONS, LTD. COMPANY 22 Philadelphia, PA 215.546.1393 Princeton, NJ 609.844.0013 23 Wilmington, DE Nationally New York, NY 24 302.426.9857 800.345.4940 212.382.1330 25 JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER_PCB-SD0000027838 1 APPEARANCES: 2 HUMPHREY, FARRINGTON & MC CLAIN, P.C. BY: SCOTT BRITTON- MEHLISCH, ESQUIRE 3 221 West Lexington- Suite 400 Independence, Missouri 64051 4 Phone: 816- 836-5050 Representing the Plaintiff 5 WHITE AND WILLIAMS, LLP 6 BY: THOMAS M. GOUTMAN, ESQUIRE One Liberty Place - 18th Floor 7 1650 Market Street Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 8 Phone: 215- 864-7000 Representing the Defendant, Monsanto 9 SMITH HELMS MULLISS & MOORE, LLP 10 BY: TIMOTHY PECK, ESQUIRE 300 North Greene Street - Suite 1400 11 Greensboro, North Carolina 27401 Phone: 910- 378-5267 12 Representing the Defendant, Monsanto 13 CRIVELLO, CARLSON, MENTKOWSKI & STEEVES, S.C. BY: JOHN R. PENDERGAST, JR., ESQUIRE 14 The Empire Building 710 North Plankinton Avenue, Suite 500 15 Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53203 Phone: 414- 271-7722 16 Representing the Defendant, ChemRex, Inc. 17 DANAHER, TEDFORD, LAGNESE & NEAL, P.C. BY: JAMES M. ROUX, ESQUIRE 18 Capitol Place 21 Oak Street 19 Hartford, Connecticut 06106 Phone: 860- 247-3666 20 Representing the Defendant, U.S. Mineral Company 21 22 23 24 25 JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES 2 WATER_PCB-SD0000027839 1 INDEX 3 2 EXAMINATION OF ROGER E. HATTON 3 By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch By Mr. Pendergast 4 Page 5 116 5 6 Exhibit s 7 Hatton 1 Hatton 2 8 Hatton 3 Hatton 4 9 Hatton 5 Hatton 6 10 Hatton 7 Hatton 8 11 12 Hatton 9 13 14 Hatton 10 15 *** Description Page Resume Report Advertisement Advertisement Advertisement Advertisement Environment Magazine Article Letter to American Hospital Supply Corp from R.E. Hatton dated 4/1/71 Letter to Hommet Corporation from R.E. Hatton dated 2/23/71 5 51 78 79 89 92 99 100 105 Letter to Plastios Specialty from R.E. Hatton dated 2/26/71 109 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027840 4 DEPOSITION SUPPORT INDEX 2 Page 3 37 4 DIRECTION TO WITNESS NOT TO ANSWER Line Page Line Page 13 Line 5 Page REQUEST FOR PRODUCTION OF DOCUMENTS Line Page Line Page Line 6 NONE 7 8 Page 9 NONE 10 Line STIPULATIONS Page Line Page Line 11 12 Page Line QUESTIONS MARKED Page Line Page Line 13 NONE 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027841 5 1 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED by and 2 between Counsel for the Plaintiff and Counsel for 3 the Defendant, that this deposition may be taken in 4 shorthand by SHERRI R. GAD, a Certified Shorthand 5 Reporter, and Notary Public, and afterwards 6 transcribed into typewriting, and signed by the 7 witness. 8 9 *** 10 ROGER E. HATTON, 11 12 after having been first duly sworn, was 13 examined and testified as follows: 14 15 * * * 16 17 MR. GOUTMAN: Usual stipulations, but the 18 witness will read and sign the transcript. 19 [EXAMINATION] 20 QUESTIONS BY MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: 21 (Whereupon, Hatton Exhibit No. 1 was 22 marked for identification by the court reporter.) 23 Q. Morning Mr. Hatton, We were introduced 24 before the deposition. But for the record, my name 25 is Scott Britton-Mehlisch. I represent the JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027842 ROGER E. HATTON 6 1 Commonwealth Pennsylvania. We are here in the 2 lawsuit involving the transportation and safety 3 building in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Would you 4 identify yourself for the record, please, sir? 5 A. Well, my name is Roger Hatton. I've been 6 retired now for some time from Monsanto where I 7 spent my professional life. 8 Q. Mr. Hatton, where do you live now? 9 A. I live at 406 Claybrook Lane, Kirkwood, 10 Missouri. 11 Q. How long have you lived there, sir? 12 A. Since 1955. 13 Q. Mr. Hatton, are you currently employed? 14 A. Self-employed. 15 Q. All right. And what is the nature of 16 yourself employment? 17 A. I have a small consulting business, which 18 is basically d*wn i n a at this point, but I am still 19 available for consulting on synthetic functional 20 fluids. 21 Q. Have you provided consulting in the past 22 through this company? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And who are some of the clients you have 25 provided consulting to? JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027843 ROGER E. HATTON 7 1 A. I really don't remember the list because 2 it's been inactive for about three or four years 3 now. And going back, it was always on -- in terms 4 of what I termed synthetic fluids? 5 q. is this the REH Consultants that's listed 6 on Exhibit 1? 7 A. Yes, uh-huh. ' 8 Q. Mr. Hatton, when did you form REH 9 Consultants? 10 A. The day I retired from Monsanto. 11 Q. That was approximately 1982? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Are there any other employees of REH 14 Consultants other than yourself? 15 A. Only on personal call. 16 Q. What are some -- who are some of the 17 employees that you have used in the past? 18 A. I do not like the term employees. These 19 were consultants on brief questions. And I talked 20 to many of the coworkers that I worked with while I 21 was still at Monsanto who were alive and active at 22 that point. 23 Q. Could you identify some of those 24 individuals? 25 A. Louie Stark and Quinton Thompson. And JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027844 ROGER E. HATTON 1 those were the two main ones. 8 2 Q. These are individuals that you have 3 worked with at Monsanto? 4 A. Yes. Dave Miller, I talked with a couple 5 of times. 6 Q. Is REH Consultants incorporated in the 7 State of Missouri? ' 8 A. No. 9 Q. It's a sole proprietorship? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Have you provided consulting services to 12 Monsanto through REH Consultants in the past? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Again, on the topic of synthetic oils and 15 hydraulics? 16 A. Yes. Covering the work that I did while 17 I was there. 18 Q. Has REH Consultants provided any 19 consulting to Monsanto in areas of litigation? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Would you describe those services that 22 you have provided to Monsanto? 23 A. Depositions -- depositions, plus a couple 24 of special assignments where I was given a project 25 to undertake, develop the history and the JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027845 ROGER E. HATTON 9 1 background of. Mostly on things that I had already 2 started while I was at Monsanto. 3 Q. What particular products were you asked 4 to develop the history and background on? 5 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. This is work 6 product. 7 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: I#m going to go 8 ahead - - 9 MR. GOUTMAN: Also, this is for 10 litigation support. He's said that in preparation 11 for litigation. 12 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: Can you tell me 13 what products that involved? He doesn't have to 14 tell me the nature of the services. He can tell me 15 the identity of the product. 16 * MR. GOUTMAN: Go ahead, you can tell him 17 the product. 18 A. Heat transfer fluids under the Therminaul 19 name, hydraulic fluids under the Pydraul name. t 20 Turbine lubricants under the Turbinaj*l name. 21 Q. Did you provide any litigation support 22 for Monsanto regarding the Aroclor name or the 23 Aroclor products? 24 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to form? 25 A. Would you repeat that? JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES . WATER PCB-SD0000027846 ROGER E. HATTON 10 91 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Certainly. 2 This is probably a good time. Mr. Hatton, you have 3 indicated that you have given several depositions. 4 but for the record, I want to make sure we have an 5 understanding about how this deposition is going to 6 go. If you don't understand any question that I 7 ask you, please ask me td repeat it or rephrase it. 8 If you answer a question. I'll assume that you 9 understood it and were able to answer from your 10 recollection and memory; all right? 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. If you need to take a break at any time 1 13 or talk to your counsel, feel free to let me know. 14 and I'll be happy to stop for you. 15 A. Okay. ; 16 Q. Just as a preliminary, are you taking any 17 medication or is there any physical reason why ' 18 you're not able to give your best testimony today? 19 A. I'm taking medicines, yes. After all. 20 I'm 80 years old. My body has gotten pretty tired 21 over the years. 22 Q. I understand. Anything that you're aware 23 of that would affect your memory or your 24 recollection? ^ 25 A. No. JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027847 ROGER E. HATTON 11 1 Q. Are you billing Mr. Goutman's firm or 2 Monsanto today for your time? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And that's through REH Consultants? 5 A. The answer is yes. I mean, that's 6 identical to me. 7 Q. What is your rite of compensation for 8 your testimony here today? 9 A. $200 an hour. 10 Q. Do you have a different rate of 11 compensation for trial testimony? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Are you being paid by Mr. Goutman's firm 14 or by Monsanto directly? 15 A. I really don't know. I'll be honest about 16 i t. 17 Q. You might want to check into that before 18 the day is over? 19 A. I have worked with these people for a 20 while. 21 MR. ROUX: Goutman is good for it. 22 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) How many 23 depositions have you given before? 24 A. In the range of 20 - 30. 25 Q. Have those all been concerning hydraulic JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027848 ROGER E. HATTON 1 fluids and Therminau*l transfer fluids? 12 2 A. I really don't recollect the subject of 3 each one, but I would -- they did involve synthetic 4 fluids. 5 Q. Did these depositions concern PCB 6 containing synthetic fluids? 7 A. Some. - 8 Q. What proportion of the 20 would you 9 estimate? 10 A. I don't remember. 11 Q. Would you say the majority of them 12 concerned PCB containing synthetic fluids? 13 A. Probably -- not the majority, but most, 14 the difference being a majority is a number and 15 most is how I remember it. 16 Q. All right. Did any of these depositions 17 concern allegations of PCB contamination of 18 buildings ? 19 A. I don't remember. 20 (Whereupon, a discussion was held off the 21 record.) 22 Q. Back on the record, did any of these 23 depositions concern spills of PCB containing 24 synthetic fluids? 25 A. Yes. JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027849 ROGER E. HATTON 13 1 Q. Can you recall where these spills were 2 alleged to have occurred? 3 A. Within the plants that were using the 4 products such as Pydraul or m1------------* iji*1 or o 5 TurbiiMu&l. 6 Q. Were these Monsanto plants? 7 A. No. ' 8 Q. These were customers' plants? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Do you recall when these depositions were 11 given? 12 A. In the last 20 years. And I don't have 13 definite dates for any of these. I can't remember 14 that much. 15 Q. Mr. Hatton, your counsel has provided us 16 with what we have marked deposition Exhibit 1, 17 and it's your resume. Is this your current 18 resume? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And does it accurately describe your work experience anjpublications? 21 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. I'd like to briefly take you back, 24 Mr. Hatton, through your educational and work 25 experience. You graduated from the University of JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES _ WATER PCB-SD0000027850 ROGER E. HATTON 14 1 Omaha, 1940 with a degree in chemistry? 2 A.No. This was a Bachelor of Arts, AB. 3 Q. You went on and obtained aMasters of 4 Science in Organic Chemistry from Purdue? 5 A. Yes . 6 MR. GOUTMAN: Wait until he is done with 7 the question? ' 8 A. I'm sorry. 9 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Do you recall 10 studying PCB's at any point during your study at 11 Purdue? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Then you went on and obtained a PhD in 14 Organic Chemistry from Purdue? 15 A. Yes. 16 * Q. Did you research in PCB's? 17 A. No. 18 Q. What particular emphasis did you have in 19 your doctoral program at Purdue? 20 A. My thesis was on chlorinolysis -- I 21 can't even spell it anymore, but chlorinolysis was 22 the subject, which is the reaction of chlorine with 23 organic molecules under conditions that leads to 24 breakage of the organic bonds. And that's -- did 25 you get that? JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027851 ROGER E. HATTON 15 1 COURT REPORTER: (Nods.) 2 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) And from 1944 3 to 1946, you stayed on and did a research 4 fellowship at Purdue? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Again, what was the topic of your 7 fellowship? v 8 A. I worked for the Manhattan District, and 9 we were involved in things relating to the atomic 10 bomb. 11 Q. You joined Monsanto as a research chemist 12 in 1946? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And worked approximately six years as a 15 research chemist? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Would you describe for me what your 18 duties as a research chemist were? 19 A. I worked for, during that period, I 20 worked for two different group leaders, as they 21 were called, who were basically my supervisors. 22 First one I did work relating to processes to make 23 chemicals in plants. It was a learning process, 24 but it was primarily in production of chemicals. 25 The other one that I worked for was concerned with JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027852 ROGER E. HATTON 16 1 the properties and uses of materials that Monsanto 2 sold or wanted to sell. 3 Q. Did any of your work as a research 4 chemist involve PCB's? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Would you describe for me what work you 7 did as a research chemist in the area of PCB's from 8 1946 to '52? 9 A. The work involved looking at what I term 10 functional fluids. This term was used within the 11 company, also. 12 Q. That's a topic we are going to talk quite 13 a bit about today. Would you describe what you 14 understand the term functional fluids to mean? 15 A. The -- my definition and the one I think 16 is widely accepted is that it is a fluid without 17 which a machine or apparatus cannot do its designed 18 function. 19 Q. All right. Getting back to the question 20 that we had, you said you were a research -- doing 21 research on PCB's as they relate to functional 22 fluids while you were a research chemist? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Would you describe that for me? 25 A. PCB's and other materials that Monsanto JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027853 ROGER E. HATTON 17 1 made were potential ingredients in the formulation 2 of fluids, functional fluids; and therefore, were 3 available and used. 4 Q. What particular functional fluids were 5 you researching during this time period? 6 A. Primarily, working on a fire resistant 7 industrial fluid, which Would be primarily used in 8 hydraulic systems. 9 Q. Did you do any work on the Aroclor - S 10 excuse me, the Aroclor fluidif .j ' j, 11 A. Studied properties and ifetr 12 performance. 13 Q. What particular properties of Aroclor did 14 you study? 15 A. Concerned with stability, physical 16 properties such as specific gravity and viscosity, 17 thermal properties, lubrication properties. Those 18 are the primary ones that you looked at. 19 Q. Did you do any research on the 20 degradeability of the Aroclor product? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Were you aware of any research that 23 Monsanto did during this time period about the 24 degradeability or persistence of the Aroclor 5 25 product^ JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027854 ROGER E. HATTON 18 1 A. I don't remember. 2 Q. During this time period, who was your 3 superior? 4 A. Harry Gamrath (phonetic). 5 Q. What was Uv. Gamrath's title? 6 A. He would be termed group leader. 7 Q. Did his group have a name? 8 A. I don't remember. 9 Q. You mentioned you worked for two 10 different groups^during this time period? 11 A. If you go back to when I first started. 12 yes. sir. 13 Q. Who was the other group leader that you 14 worked for? 15 A. Mike Divornikoff, D-I-V-O-R-N-I-K-O-F-F, 16 I think. It's been a while. 17 Q. Was it for Mr. Gamrath or Mr. Divornikoff 18 that you did the PCB research? 19 A. I would like that question clarified. 20 Q. Certainly. You have mentioned previously 21 that you did research during this time period on 22 PCB materials, correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. All right. And you've mentioned that you 25 worked for Mr. Gamrath and Mr. Divornikoff, JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER_PCB-SD0000027855 1 correct? ROGER E. HATTON 19 2 A. Uh-huh. 3 Q. Did you do work on PCB for both of these 4 gentlemen or one of them? 5 A. Just under Gamrath. 6 Q. And can you place at what point during 7 the 1946 to '52 time period this research took 8 place? 9 A. We are talking, you said 1946 to 1952? 10 Q. Yes. 11 A. Most of the work was done on formulating 12 PCB's was -- the basic work was done after - 13 well, it was briefly started under Gamrath. Then I 14 was elevated to the position of group leader, and 15 then it was my work. 16 Q. All right. And that was during the time 17 period of 1952 to 1960? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. You mentioned there was some formulation 20 work that was done on PCB materials? 21 A. Uh-huh. 22 Q. What particular PCB containing products 23 did you help formulate or research the formulation 24 of? 25 A. Oh, this work led to the eventual JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES - WATER PCB-SD0000027856 ROGER E. HATTON 20 1 products, a series of Pydrauls P-Y-D-A-U-L. 2 MR. PENDERGAST: P-Y-D-R-A-U-L, I think 3 you left the R out. 4 A. Like hydraulic. That's where the name 5 came from. Pyro meaning fire and draul meaning 6 draulic. 7 Q. (By Mr. Brittoii-Mehlisch) Indicating the 8 fire resistent nature of that fluid? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Were there any other PCB containing 11 products that you worked on during this time frame? 12 MR. GOUTMAN: Talking about '52 to '60. 13 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: Yes. 14 A. Yes. There were numerous applications 15 looked at, and if they required specific products, 16 they were formulated and samples sent, typical 17 development work done. 18 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Any other 19 products other than the Pydraul products that made 20 it -- that were -- eventually became a commercial 21 product? o ,_ 22 A. TherminjNftl -- no. I'm sorry. May I back 23 up, please? 24 Q. Sure. 25 A. TurbineSkl is the one that I meant to JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES . WATER PCB-SD0000027857 ROGER E. HATTON 21 1 say. And that product was designed specifically 2 for use in gas turbines. 3 Q. What was the function of Turbin^Stl in a 4 gas turbine? 5 A. Lubrication, heat transfer. 6 Q. Were you the primary person responsible 7 for the formulation of that product? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. During - 10 A. Well, my group, I should say, not... 11 Q. Again, did this group have a title other 12 than the research group? 13 A. We went by, that's Hatton's group and 14 that's Gamrath's group, and that's Joe Smith's 15 group, so. . . 16 Q. No formal designation in the corporate 17 organization? 18 A. No, uh-uh. 19 MR. PENDERGASTs The answer is no? 20 A. No. 21 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) During this 22 time period, Mr. Hatton, where were you located 23 within the company physically? 24 MR. GOUTMAN: Prom '52 to '60 again? 25 A. We are talking '52 to '60? JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027858 ROGER E. HATTON 22 1 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: Yes. 2 A. I was thinking for the total time span, 3 and that was spent at the research laboratories on 4 Second Street. 5 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Here in St. 6 Louis? 7 A. In Monsanto, y&s. 8 Q. Was your entire career as a research 9 chemist spent at that facility, or did you at some 10 point in time move? 11 A. I moved when I changed positions in 12 1960. I came out to the main campus at that point. 13 Q. That's a logical move. 14 Let's talk about in 1960 to 1968 when you 15 have listed that you became a project manager in 16 Organic Chemicals Commercial Development 17 Department? 18 A. Uh-huh. 19 Q. What was the responsibility of the 20 Commercial Development Department in organic 21 chemicals? 22 A. Basic functions were to find and develop 23 uses for Monsanto products. 24 Q. This was uses of existing products, or 25 did you assist in the formulation of new products JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES . WATER PCB-SD0000027859 ROGER E. HATTON 23 1 also? 2 A. The development department had no direct 3 responsibility for formulation of products. They 4 did have responsibility for doing market research 5 type of things, which meant that we visited 6 customers, learned what their problems were, and 7 came back and relayed thdrn to the research 8 department. 9 Q. You've mentioned that during the time 10 period, 1960 to 1968, you were a project manager in 11 organic chemicals. Was that a division of Monsanto 12 at that time? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What other divisions existed in Monsanto, 15 other than organic chemicals? 16 MR. GOUTMAN: Again, from 1960 to 1968? 17 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: 1960 to 1968. 18 A. I do not think I can give you all of the 19 divisions. One that I was familiar with was in 20 organic chemicals. Organic and inorganic was the 21 way the company was split then, and they were the 22 biggest ones. There were -- I guess X have to stop 23 there. I don't remember the complete organization. 24 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Those would be 25 the two main divisions in your mind, organic and JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES . WATER PCB-SD0000027860 ROGER E. HATTON 24 1 inorganic? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Forgive my knowledge of chemistry, but 4 would all PCB production be centered within the 5 organic division? 6 A. Yes. 7 MR. GOUTMAN: Again, from '60 to '68? 8 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: '60 to '68. 9 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Has it ever 10 been centered in any other division other than the 11 organic division? 12 A. I don't know. 13 Q. During the time period from 1960 to '68, 14 did you continue to have a responsibility for 15 market research and application of PCB containing 16 products for Monsanto? 17 A. That was a minor part of what I did in 18 that period. 19 Q. What would you consider the major part of 20 your responsibilities during that time period? 21 A. At that point, I was mainly interested in 22 aircraft hydraulic fluids, in fire resistance, and 23 in space applications of synthetic fluid. 24 Q. Were any of these materials that were 25 your primary focus during that time period PCB JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES .' WATER PCB-SD0000027861 ROGER E. HATTON 25 1 containing? 2 A. Anything on the industrial side could 3 have been -4 Q. Do you recall - 5 A. -- in the aircraft industry, no. 6 Q. Do you recall specific products in the 7 industrial side that were PCB containing that you 8 dealt with? 9 A. No, not specifically. 10 Q. From 1960 to '68, did you continue to 11 have responsibility for commercial development of 12 the Pydraul line? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Who was responsible for the commercial 15 development of that line? 16 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form. You 17 may answer. 18 MR. PENDERGAST: This was for the period 19 '60 - # 6 8 ? 20 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: '60 - '68. 21 A. These were commercial products and were 22 handled by marketing department. 23 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Was there a 24 marketing department specifically for that product 25 or for the -- let me strike that. JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027862 ROGER E. HATTON 26 1 How was marketing of the hydraulic 2 fluids, PCB containing hydraulic fluid, handled 3 during the time period 1960 - '68. 4 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection, vague. You may 5 answer if you can. 6 A. Marketing department was broken down into 7 groups. And groups were ^handled or were assigned 8 by application, meaning a fluids group, X group, a 9 Y group, depending on what the products were. 10 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) What about the 11 o -- excuse me, the Turbinaatl line during the 12 period 1960 to '68, again, did you have 13 responsibility for the commercial development of 14 the Turbinwl line? 15 A. Yes. 16 * Q. Who were your primary customers, if you . 17 recall, during this time period of the Turbinrl 18 product? V 19 A. Texas Eastern/ Gas Transmission. 20 Q. During the period 1960 to '68, did you 21 have any responsibility for commercial development 22 of the Aroclor? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Again, what department or what entity 25 within Monsanto would have been responsibility for JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES . WATER PCB-SD0000027863 ROGER E. HATTON 27 1 the commercial development of the Aroclor line? 2 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form. You 3 may answer. 4 A. I don't remember the group, where it 5 fell. 6 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Do you 7 remember any individuals 'who would have had that 8 responsibility during that time period? 9 A. We are talking now? 10 Q. 1960 - '68. 11 A. I need your question clarified, if I may. 12 Q. Certainly. During the period 1960 to 13 1968, do you recall any individuals who would have 14 been responsible for the marketing or commercial 15 development of the Aroclor product line? 16 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to form. You may 17 answer. 18 A. Marketing was handling those products at 19 that point. 20 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Do you recall 21 who was in charge of marketing during that time 22 period? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Would there have been an Aroclor group 25 underneath -- within the framework of marketing to JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES . WATER PCB-SD0000027864 ROGER E. HATTON 28 1 handle the product development of that particular 2 product? 3 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to form. You may- 4 answer . 5 A. I don't recall. 6 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) In 1968, your 7 job title changed to technical service manager? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Would you describe for me what your 10 responsibilities as technical service manager were? 11 A. My activities were directed toward 12 insuring that the Monsanto products iorvad the 13 function that they were sold for. Specifically, 14 this was in the fluids area. 15 Q. Within the title of technical service 16 manager, would you handle customer company 17 complaints about your products? 18 A. I only handled customer complaints that 19 dealt with the functionality of the product. 20 Q. Did you have any role in developing new 21 uses for Monsanto products during this time period? 22 A. I continued to work on Therminaul 23 Turbinaul. Somehow or other I got a block in my 24 mind this morning, but with Turbinaul, I continued 25 work. Actually, what this amounts to is that I had JUKIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES . WATER PCB-SD0000027865 ROGER E. HATTON 29 1 the same responsibilities and a new title and a 2 raise. 3 Q. Again, during the period 1968 to 1982, 4 did you have any responsibilities for the Aroclor 5 product line? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Do you know who would have had that 8 responsibility during that time period? 9 A. No. 10 Q. During the period of 1968 to 1982, who 11 would have been responsible for marketing the 12 Aroclor product? 13 MR. GOUTMAN: From, I'm sorry, from? 14 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: '68 until it was 15 phased out. 16 A. I do not remember the -- any names of who 17 was in charge at that point. 18 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Mr. Hatton, 19 you mentioned that you were located for a certain 20 part of your career at the research lab on Second 21 Street in St. Louis. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. When did you move out to what you have 24 described, I think, as the campus? 25 A. Well, when -- the date that is here for JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES . WATER PCB-SD0000027866 ROGER E. HATTON 30 1 becoming a project manager. It was a transfer in 2 position that led to my moving to the campus. 3 Q. Sometime in 1960 approximately? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Was marketing also located in the same 6 building or general area? 7 A. Yes. ' 8 Q. Did you have contact with anyone in 9 marketing on a regular basis during the time period 10 1960 until PCB containing materials were phased 11 out? 12 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form. You 13 may answer. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Who in 16 marketing would you have talked to about PCB 17 containing materials? 18 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form. You 19 may answer. 20 A. People who were in those departments -- 21 q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) I understand. 22 Do you recall - 23 A. -- from clerks to people who ran the 24 place. 25 Q. Do you recall any specific names of JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027867 ROGER E. HATTON 31 1 individuals? 2 A. I need clarification on that question. 3 Q. All right. 4 A. In what area are we talking about now? 5 Q. Let's talk about the hydraulic fluid 6 area, because that's what you have indicated you're 7 most familiar with. During the time from 1960 8 until PCB containing hydraulic fluids were phased 9 out in the early '70s, do you recall having regular 10 conversations with individuals in marketing about 11 those fluids? 12 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to form. You may 13 answer. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Again, do you 16 recall specific individuals within marketing that 17 you talked about PCB containing hydraulic fluids 18 with? 19 A. There were a number of people, again, and 20 I -- I have to give -- well, put it this way: I 21 just did not have a continuing contact with these 22 people. I did my job and they did theirs. And the 23 contact would be, what would normally occur, if I 24 had a problem or they had a problem, and we had to 25 have help. JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027868 ROGER E. HATTON 32 1 Q. Who do you recall talking to in marketing 2 during this time period? 3 A. Dick Davis. What was Johnson's first 4 name? I can't even remember now. 5 MR. PENDERGAST: Norm? 6 A. Norm Johnson. That's the one I'm looking 7 for. And there were others. Marketing had a 8 number of people in and out of it over the years. 9 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) 10 what was Mr. Davis responsibility during this time 11 period? 12 A. Mainly in the Pydraul area. 13 Q. Would Mr. Davis deal with customer 14 complaints about the Pydraul product? 15 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. You may answer 16 if you can. 17 A. Any marketing man has to be in contact 18 with the customer, and anything they say is okay. 19 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Did Mr. Davis 20 refer customer complaints to you for your technical 21 expertise? 22 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to form. You may 23 answer. 24 A. Not routinely. 25 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) From time to JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027869 ROGER E. HATTON 33 1 time this did happen? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Would you typically contact the customer 4 yourself to investigate the problem? 5 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to form. You may 6 answer. 7 A. Not routinely. ' 8 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Who within 9 Monsanto would be responsible for investigating the 10 problem if there was a customer complaint? 11 A. Problems were assigned as to the area in 12 which they fell. If it was a manufacture^drumming 13 or labeling, all these things went to specifics - 14 people. 15 Q. Mr. Hatton, do you have any professional 16 licenses ? 17 A. No. 18 Q. I see you have indicated that you were a 19 member of Society of Automotive Engineers? 20 A. Yes, uh-huh. 21 Q. The American Society for Testing 22 Materials? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. When did you become a member of the ASTM, 25 sir? JUKIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027870 ROGER E. HATTON 34 1 A. I do not remember a date. It was 2 sometime while I was a group leader, in that 3 period. 4 Q. Sometime in the 1950 to 1960 time frame? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. It indicates you were a member of the 7 Fluid Power Society? v 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Could you tell me what the Fluid Power 10 Society is? 11 A. This was a group of technical people who 12 were concerned with all --fclw^"properties of the 13 use5 of liquids and gasses in devices. 14 Q. Again, sir, when did you join that 15 society? 16 * A. Shortly after it was formed. And I 17 cannot give you a date it was formed. 18 Q. Again, do you have a general feeling for 19 what decade that was? 20 A. It's also in this time period of when I 21 was a group leader. 22 Q. Again, the American Chemical Society, 23 when did you join that organization? 24 A. After I got my degree. 25 Q. Are we talking about your PhD? JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027871 ROGER E. HATTON 35 1 A. PhD. No. That is not a true answer. I 2 was involved in the local American Chemical Society 3 while I was a - - in graduate school. 4 Q. Does the American Chemical Society 5 publish abstracts of research? 6 A. Yes, yes. 7 Q. And did you redeive those abstracts on a 8 regular basis after you joined the American 9 Chemical Society? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Do you know whether or not Monsanto 12 received those abstracts? 13 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. You may answer 14 if you can. 15 A. I don't know. 16 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Do you recall 17 consulting those abstracts during your tenure at 18 Monsanto? 19 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. You may 20 answer. 21 A. Yes . 22 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) And finally. 23 sir, you said you were a member of the American 24 Society of Lubrication Engineers? 25 A. This is another specialized group, and JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES . WATER PCB-SD0000027872 ROGER E. HATTON 36 1 they were concerned with the function of 2 lubrication. What is it? How does it work? What 3 is required of the products? Many papers were 4 presented on that subject. A lot a papers 5 presented on the best way to use a fluid in a given 6 device. They did additional work on test methods, 7 supplementing the ASTM wo'rk. 8 Q. Did any of these technical or 9 professional organizations have regular 10 publications you received? 11 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to form. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Which ones? 14 Would you identify those for me, please? 15 A. Oh, I got the -- from the society -- or 16 from the SAE. 17 Q. Society of Automotive Engineers? 18 A. Yeah. ASTM has publications, but I did 19 not routinely get them. Fluid Ustv Society, no; 20 American Chemical Society, yes; and definitely from 21 the Lubrication Engineers. 22 Q. Did you regularly read those as you 23 received them? 24 A. Within a few months. 25 Q. Do you recall any of those publications JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES . WATER PCB-SD0000027873 ROGER E. HATTON 37 1 having any mention of possible allegations of 2 health hazards from PCB's? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Mr. Hatton, have you been convicted of 5 any felonies or misdemeanors? 6 A. Speeding only. 7 Q. You have already indicated that you have 8 given prior deposition testimony around 20 times, 9 correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Have you ever testified at trial? 12 A. No. 13 Q. I briefly mentioned, Mr. Hatton, that we 14 are here over a case involving a building in 15 Harrisburg Pennsylvania. When did you first become 16 aware of this case? 17 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. It involves 18 communications with counsel. I instruct him not to 19 answer the question. 20 MR. PENDERGAST: Further for the record, 21 I'd like clarified, Mr. Hatton, does Mr. Goutman 22 represent you? 23 MR. GOUTMAN: I represent him. 24 A. Yes, yes. 25 MR. PENDERGAST: Okay. JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027874 ROGER E. HATTON 38 1 MR. ROUX: You mean to say when he first 2 contacted you is covered by attorney-client 3 privilege? 4 MR. GOUTMAN: He asked about the - 5 MR. ROUX: I'm sorry, about attorney work 6 product; is that what you're saying? 7 MR. GOUTMAN: No. I said by 8 attorney-client privilege. 9 MR. ROUX: Attorney-client privilege 10 things. 11 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: I'm asking him 12 when he first became aware of this case. That's 13 covered by attorney-client privilege? 14 MR. GOUTMAN: Yeah. 15 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: I don't agree with 16 youon that one. I don't want the substance of 17 your discussions at all. I'm simply asking when he 18 was first contacted about this case. 19 MR. GOUTMAN: And given the liberal 20 interpretation that your office has extended to 21 attorney-client privilege, I think that's well 22 within the attorney-client privilege. 23 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Mr. Hatton, 24 have you discussed this case with any of your 25 former coworkers at Monsanto? JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027875 ROGER E. HATTON 39 1 A. NO. 2 Q. Have you discussed this case with any 3 friends of yours? 4 A. Excluding Mr. Goutman, I'm removing him. 5 MR. ROUX: Assuming he Is a friend. 6 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: Assuming he Is a 7 friend. ' 8 A. And assuming I have any left at this 9 stage. That's off the record, I guess. Anyway, 10 other than my wife, no. 11 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) And what 12 discussion did you have with your wife about this 13 particular case? 14 A. I have lived with her now for 50 some 15 years, and there isn't much that we don't discuss 16 anymore, including where were you yesterday? 17 Q. Have you attempted to contact anyone 18 within Monsanto in order to prepare for the 19 deposition today, other than Mr. Goutman? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Did you meet with anyone in preparation 22 for your case or your testimony in this case today? 23 A. Yes. I met with Tom yesterday. 24 Q. And how long did you meet with 25 Mr. Goutman? JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027876 ROGER E. HATTON 40 1 A. Several hours. 2 Q. Where did that meeting take place? 3 A. Hotel here. 4 Q. Did you take any notes during this 5 meeting? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Did you read ariy documents to prepare for 8 the deposition? 9 A. I read the information provided by 10 Mr. Goutman. 11 Q. Mr. Goutman had some documents that he 12 had you read? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Could you tell me what documents those 15 were? 16 A. Oh, it was a stack, I don't know. 17 somewhere like that (indicates) . 18 Q. Do you recall -19 A. We just briefly reviewed. 20 Q. Do you recall specifically any documents 21 Mr. Goutman asked you to read? 22 A. Not specific ones, no. 23 Q. Did you review any documents that had to 24 do with the Aroclor product line? 25 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to form. You may JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027877 ROGER E. HATTON 41 1 answer. 2 A. May I ask for clarification of that 3 question? 4 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: Certainly. 5 A. Your use of the term Aroclor always mean 6 PCB's? 7 Q. (By Mr. Brittorf-Mehlisch) Well, 8 Mr. Hatton, you're the gentleman that worked for 9 Monsanto. In your mind, what does the term Aroclor 10 relate to? Does it relate, in your mind, to PCB 11 containing materials? 12 A. It relates to at least PCB's, PCT's and 13 any higher molecular weight materials that might be 14 there. And I believe that even some of the high 15 molecular weight aromatic compounds that were 16 by-products of those materials were also at one 17 time called Aroclors. 18 Q. For the sake of, I think, of the jury and 19 for my understanding, I'm going to confine when I 20 use the Aroclor, I'm going to talk, at least in my 21 mind, about a product that contained PCB's that 22 was, I believe, eliminated from the Monsanto 23 product line in the 1970s. Can we agree on that 24 definition? 25 MR. GOUTMAN: I think you've been using JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES " WATER PCB-SD0000027878 ROGER E. HATTON 42 1 it differently throughout this deposition; and 2 therefore, I'm not going to agree to it. Are you 3 saying going forward, you're going to use Aroclor 4 as any product that contains PCB's; is that your 5 definition you want? 6 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: No, no. I'm 7 talking about specific product line that contained 8 PCB that was phased out by Monsanto in the 1970s. 9 A. I - - 10 MR. GOUTMAN: I don't know what you mean 11 by specific product line. 12 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: We got Aroclor. 13 We'll go through that. 14 MR. GOUTMAN: Well, I don't understand or 15 can't agree with your definition of the Aroclor, 16 because I think you've been using it in different 17 ways throughout this deposition. And I don't think 18 the witness is using it in the same way you're 19 using it, so in any event? 20 A. I'm confused as to what should be 21 included in the terms that you're using Aroclor. 22 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) All right. 23 That's what I'm attempting to define, Mr. Hatton. 24 When you use the term Aroclor, from now on I'm 25 talking about a specific PCB containing product JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES . WATER PCB-SD0000027879 ROGER E. HATTON 43 1 line that was phased out by Monsanto in the 1970s. 2 A. Anything that Monsanto made that 3 contained it? 4 Q. The contained PCB that was sold under 5 that trade name. 6 A. All right. 7 MR. PENDERGAST:' Yeah. I'm going to join 8 Mr. Goutman's objection, because I think we are 9 going to confuse the record somewhat if now you add 10 the definition, because the deposition has 11 proceeded with your use of the term Aroclor, and 12 you have also used different terms for other 13 products that were sold by Monsanto, including 14 Pydraul and Turbinaul and others. And it appears 15 now that you want to change the definition, which 16 would then maybe subsume some of those products. 17 So I'd just as soon proceed with the nomenclature 18 we've used so far. And if you want to ask the 19 witness how he has understood the term or used that 20 term Aroclor, maybe that would clarify the past 21 testimony, but you changing the definition in 22 midstream, I think it's just going to confuse the 23 record. 24 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: I understand your 25 objection, and I think we have Mr. Hatton's JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES _ WATER PCB-SD0000027880 ROGER E. HATTON 1 understanding on the record, whatever he 44 2 understands it to be, we will go through with that 3 for now on. 4 MR. GOUTMAN: I don't think it's at all 5 the definition set forth by this witness. Define 6 what you mean by Aroclor. 7 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: All right. Let's 8 go - - 9 MR. GOUTMAN: You're talking about 10 Aroclor as a product line. Go ahead. 11 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) What do you 12 understand, in your mind, the term Aroclor to mean, 13 Mr. Hatton? 14 A. Aroclor is a trademark of Monsanto 15 Company which was applied to a line of materials, 16 sales materials, that were made -- I can't even say 17 this. It's a difficult thing to define beyond the 18 term of being a trademark of materials, of which 19 most were polychlorinated biphenyls. 20 Q. Just so we are clear, some of the 21 products sold under the Aroclor trade name, 22 according to your testimony, did not contain PCB's, 23 correct? 24 A. I do not remember what the product 25 literature says. I do know that there were high JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES . WATER PCB-SD0000027881 ROGER E. HATTON 45 1 molecular weight materials which were sold, and my 2 memory said that they were called Aroclors. There 3 were some called Santowaxes and they generally - 4 these are the higher numbers in the system. 5 Q. Santowax? 6 A. Santowax. 7 MR. ROUX: How 'do you spell that? 8 A. S-A-N-T-O-W-A-X it's just like it 9 sounds. These things generally were waxy. That's 10 why they were called that. They were solids. 11 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) And what were 12 some of the functions of Santowax? 13 A. Major one that I remember was used in a 14 process of casting commonly known as a lost wax 15 casting process. 16 MR. ROUX: In the jewelry making 17 industry? 18 A. I am not sure what industries used them, 19 but that general make a -- you know, make a form, 20 you know, and melt the wax out, and then pour the 21 metal, whatever it may be. I think some of that 22 even practiced industrially, not in the jewelry. 23 It's mainly a jewelry operation. 24 MR. ROUX: I'm sorry. 25 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Mr. Hatton, JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES .' WATER PCB-SD0000027882 ROGER E. HATTON 1 did Santowax contain PCB's? 46 2 A. I don't know. 3 Q. During the time period that you were 4 employed by Monsanto, did they have a health and 5 safety department in the company? 6 A. I don't know. 7 Q. Do you know whether or not Monsanto 8 employed industrial hygienists? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Do you recall who any of the industrial 11 hygienists employed by Monsanto were? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Could you list those individuals for me, 14 sir? 15 A. Yes. They worked actually for the 16 medical department going back to when I remember. 17 Dr. Kelly and Elmer Wheeler were the two that I 18 dealt with over the years. 19 Q. Doctor Kelly was an M.D.? 20 A. M.D. 21 Q. What about Mr. Wheeler, was he an 22 industrial hygienist or M.D.? 23 A. I think he was a toxicologist, but I 24 would not -- 1 asked not to be held to that, 25 because I'm not sure of what his training was, but JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027883 ROGER E. HATTON 47 1 he was in that department. 2 Q. Did Monsanto have specific industrial 3 hygienists assigned to certain production plants? 4 A. I don# t know. 5 Q. Do you recall whether or not any of the 6 industrial hygienists were based in the production 7 plants Monsanto had? ' 8 MR. GOUTMANs You talking from 19 - 9 A. I don't know. 10 MR. GOUTMAN: From 1946 to 1982? 11 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: Yes. 12 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. Overly broad. 13 Answer the same, you don't know. 14 A. I don't know. 15 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Mr. Hatton, 16 what organization within Monsanto was responsible 17 for product testing? 18 A. That has to be clarified. That's a very 19 broad question. 20 Q. All right. I understand some of your 21 testimony is that while you were a research chemist 22 and research group leader, you had some 23 responsibility for product testing, correct? 24 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. You may 25 answer. JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES . WATER PCB-SD0000027884 ROGER E. HATTON 48 1 A. Again, this is a very broad question. 2 The testing of products before they left the plant 3 was not a research function, and we did not enter 4 into that. We may have helped set up test 5 requirements and limits for these products, but we 6 did not do it ourselves. 7 Q. Who handled the' quality assurance aspect 8 of product testing? 9 A. That was handled by each plant in a 10 special laboratory with people doing that. 11 Q. Did those people fall under the 12 production aspect of the company or under the 13 research? 14 A. No. They reported to the manufacturing. 15 Q. From time to time as a technical service 16 manager, did you discuss quality assurance issues 17 with these individuals for the hydraulic fluid 18 line? 19 MR. GOUTMAN: You talking now about 1968 20 and 1982, did he discuss with whom, you said these 21 individuals? 22 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: With the quality 23 insurance individuals who were located within the 24 plant? 25 A. Within plants, you said? JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES .' WATER PCB-SD0000027885 ROGER E. HATTON 49 1 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: Yes. 2 MR. GOUTMAN: Could you please just 3 completely repeat or rephrase your question, 4 because it was vague as phrased. Let's make sure 5 the record is clear as to what you're asking. 6 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) During the 7 period 1968- '82, while you were technical service 8 manager, did you have responsibility for talking to 9 these individuals about quality assurance issues 10 for the hydraulic fluid line? 11 MR. GOUTMAN: These individuals, meaning 12 quality assurance individuals located in individual 13 plants? 14 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: In manufacturing 15 plants? 16 A. And your term of your question, again, 17 did I have responsibility for these people? No. 18 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Were you 19 responsible for talking to these people about 20 quality assurance problems? 21 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form. You 22 can answer if you can. 23 A. And the question was responsibility for? 24 No. I did not have responsibility for talking to 25 these people. JURlST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027886 ROGER E. HATTON 50 1 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) What position 2 within the company would have that responsibility? 3 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form. You 4 may answer. 5 A. Oh, the plants always had a chief 6 chemist, and he would have reported to the 7 management of the plant. ' 8 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Mr. Hatton, 9 are you familiar with the term an open system 10 versus a closed system product? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. What is your understanding of an open 13 system product? 14 A. An open system is any system that isn't 15 closed. And a closed system is one in which the 16 material is completely contained. 17 Q. With reference to the use of hydraulics 18 in hydraulic fluids, what would be an example of an 19 open system, if there is such an example? 20 A. Normal use of the fluid would be a mvo&e 21 system. The fluid is contained within the 22 hydraulic system while it's being used, but there 23 was no attempt made to isolate it from the 24 atmosphere. 25 Q. Are there any examples of a closed system JURiST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027887 ROGER E. HATTON 51 1 product in the field of hydraulics and fluids? 2 MR. PENDERGAST: Hydraulic fluids? 3 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: Hydraulic fluids, 4 I mean. 5 MR. GOUTMAN: It changes your question 6 quite a bit? 7 A. I can't remember a specific closed 8 system. 9 Q. Would you agree with me that a hydraulic 10 fluid would generally be considered an open system 11 product? 12 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to form. You may 13 answer. 14 A. Depends completely on your definition of 15 sealed, enclosed, or any of these terms. 16 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Let's go ahead 17 and take a look at a document here. 18 MR. GOUTMAN: You want to mark this two. 19 (Whereupon, Hatton Exhibit No. 2 was 20 marked for identification by the court reporter.) 21 MR. ROUX: I'm sure you're going to do 22 this, for those of us who do not have the privilege 23 of having a copy of the document, would you at 24 least identify it? 25 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: Certainly. JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027888 ROGER E. HATTON 52 1 Document Is an untitled Monsanto document, seven 2 pages, bearing the Bates number MONS 035405 through 3 MONS 035412. 4 MR. ROUX: Is it dated? 5 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: The document 6 itself, the date appears to be 1969 -- excuse me, 7 1970. ' 8 MR. ROUX: Are the Bates stamp numbers in 9 this case or other cases? 10 MR. GOUTMAN: This was produced in this 11 litigation. 12 MR. ROUX: I'm sorry to interrupt. 13 MR. GOUTMAN: What are you referring to 14 when you say this document is dated 1970 or '69? 15 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: I said it appears 16 to be dated sometime during 1970. 17 MR. PENDERGAST: The document itself 18 references a meeting of November 17, 1969, first 19 sentence. 20 MR. GOUTMAN: I understand that. It has 21 all kinds of dates in here, but the document is not 22 dated, so the record is clear. 23 Do you have a question about this 24 document ? 25 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) I do. Mr. JURiST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027889 ROGER E. HATTON 53 1 Hatton, have you ever seen this document before? 2 A. I have no memory of seeing this. 3 Q. Rather than take you through individual 4 statements in this document, I#d like to have you 5 turn your attention to the next to the last page, 6 which is titled. Schedule for Discontinuing Aroclor 7 Applications. See that, 'sir? 8 A. Yes, uh-huh. 9 Q. Underneath the application, it says 10 hydraulic fluids and list a number of Pydraul 11 products? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Are you familiar with the product Pydraul 14 AC? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Did that product contain PCB's? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. What type of PCB did the product contain? 19 A. I don't remember the specific one. 20 Q. What was the application for or the use 21 of Pydraul AC? 22 A. AC meant air compressors, and it was used 23 as a lubricant in air compressors, primarily. 24 Q. During the time from 1952 until 1968, did 25 you have any responsibility for research into this JURiST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027890 ROGER E. HATTON 54 1 product? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What types of research did you do on the 4 Pydraul AC product? 5 A. It was formulated in my laboratory. 6 Q. Did you have any responsibility for 7 researching possible health effects from the PCB's 8 in the product? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Did you have any discussions with any 11 individuals about the possible health effects of 12 PCB's in the product? 13 A. No. Product was not, at that time 14 period, was never given a trade name until it had 15 cleared the medical department, which is what it 16 was* called then with regard to a^jh^ndling aadr^~-* 17 statement, which went into the product literature. 18 So yes. I had to find a statement to put in that 19 product literature, which I wrote. 20 Q. You were responsible for writing the 21 A. That was one of the many functions. 22 Q. Pardon me? 23 MR. GOUTMANs You're going to have to let 24 him finish. 25 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Let me JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES . WATER PCB-SD0000027891 ROGER E. HATTON 55 1 1 finish. 2 A. Sorry. 3 Q. You were responsible for formulating or 4 drafting a health effect statement for this 5 product? 6 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to form. You may 7 answer. ' 8 A. I was required by company rules to have 9 obtained approval and the wording of the statement 10 from our medical department. 11 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Was there a 12 specific individual in the medical department that you submitted your proposed statement to? ^ 14 A. Sure. Emmett Kelly ran the place. 15 Q. Do you recall any discussions with Dr. 16 Kelly about the possible health effects from the 17 Pydraul AC product? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Did you discuss any possible health 20 effects that the PCB's in the product might have on 21 humans ? 22 A. I don't remember. 23 Q. Did you discuss any possible health 24 effects that the PCB's in the Pydraul AC product 25 might have an other mammal life? i W JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES . WATER PCB-SD0000027892 ROGER E. HATTON 56 1 A. I don't remember. 2 Q. Do you recall any specific discussions 3 you would have had with Dr. Kelly about any 4 potential toxic effects the PCB's in the Pydraul AC 5 product would have had on any form of animal life? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Do you know whet research Dr. Kelly did 8 to determine whether or not the PCB's in the 9 Pydraul AC product would have any toxic effect on 10 human life? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Did you do any specific research on the 13 toxic or health effects of PCB's in this product 14 before - - 15 A. Go ahead. 16 Q. -- Before you submitted your statement 17 to Dr. Kelly for his review? 18 A. I did not submit any statements to Dr. 19 Kelly for review. The medical department wrote the 20 statements, and I merely put them in the bulletin 21 as given to me. 22 Q. All right. Just so we can shorten our 23 inquiry about all the Pydraul products, was this 24 the same procedure that you followed for all the 25 Pydraul products that were listed on page six of JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027893 1 this document? ROGER E. HATTON 57 2 MR. GOUTMAN: Procedure for the creation 3 of product literature that contained health 4 statements? 5 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: Yes. 6 A. I cannot remember whether I wrote all 7 those documents, but if I wrote any of them, they 8 would have gone through the same procedures. And 9 if somebody else wrote them, they would have also 10 been cleared through the medical department. 11 Q. Do you recall doing any research yourself 12 on health effects of PCB's that were contained 13 within any of these products? 14 A. No. We were not toxicologists, we were 15 chemists. 16 Q. You relied on the medical department for 17 that area of expertise? 18 A. Yes. 19 MR. GOUTMAN: Wait until he is finished. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) They had 22 toxicologists on staff such as Mr. Wheeler? 23 A. I do not remember the organization of the 24 medical department. 25 Q. Do you recall having any discussions with JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES ' WATER PCB-SD0000027894 ROGER E. HATTON 1 Mr. Wheeler about PCB's in the Pydraul product 58 2 line? 3 A. I do not recall that. 4 Q. When did Pydraul AC first begin to be 5 sold on the market if you recall? 6 A. I do not have that date in my mind. 7 Q. Let's move onto the next product. 8 Pydraul AC-WG. Do you recall what -- do you recall 9 whether or not this product contained PCB's? 10 A. I do not recall this product here today. 11 I do not know - - remember what it was. 12 Q. You have no recollection of about what 13 its function might have been? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Looks like it was a big seller for you, 16 also, there. 17 What about the Pydraul 625 product, do 18 you recall that product? 19 A. Yes. And that one contained PCB's. 20 Q. Do you recall what specific type of PCB's 21 that product contained? 22 A. No. 23 MR. PENDERGAST: I'm going to object to 24 the form of the question. 25 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Do you recall? JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027895 ROGER E. HATTON 59 1 MR. GOUTMAN: I assume by type of PCB's, 2 you mean which Aroclor? 3 MR. PENDERGAST: Which Aroclor, I'd just 4 as soon you'd be precise with the question. 5 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Do you know 6 what particular type Aroclor that product 7 contained? ' 8 A. No, I do not. 9 Q. Do you recall when that product first 10 entered the market place? 11 A. I do not. 12 Q. Did you have any responsibility for the 13 development of that product? 14 A. That came out of my group, yes. 15 Q. What specifically -- what specific 16 research did you have in the development of that 17 product? 18 MR. GOUTMAN: At this time, I would 19 object. None of these products are involved in 20 this litigation. I don't -- I can't fathom the 21 relevancy of who developed Pydraul and what its 22 functions were. Can you maybe explain that to me, 23 it's been going on now for an hour, we haven't 24 gotten to any products that was found in the 25 transportation and safety book. JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027896 ROGER E. HATTON 60 1 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: Tom, I understand 2 that's your general objection to this whole 3 deposition. 4 MR. GOUTMAN: It's not a general 5 objection to this whole deposition. I'm just 6 asking you where you're going with this. I mean, 7 you could take deposition's adnauseam at all sorts 8 of products manufactured by Monsanto. But I don't 9 understand the relevance. Maybe you can tell me 10 what it is. 11 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: I have the right 12 to inquire into what knowledge Monsanto had about 13 the health hazards of PCB's as it relates to any 14 product that had PCB's in them. 0.5 MR. GOUTMAN: I understand that. And a 16 lot-of your questions have related to that, to 17 health hazards of PCB's and the rest was when was 18 Pydraul developed. This is hydraulic fluid. It 19 has nothing to do with this case. 20 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: You stated your 21 objection for the record. I'm going ahead, Tom. I 22 have sat through enough depositions where I felt 23 the same about your inquiry, too. And I'm going to 24 go ahead and take the deposition the way I want to 25 take it. JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027897 ROGER E. HATTON 61 1 MR. GOUTMAN: I don't think any of my 2 deposition was ever devoted to a product that was 3 not found in the building, but in any event. 4 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: We are wasting 5 time getting into an argument about this. I can 6 probably go ahead and speed through there. 7 MR. GOUTMAN: Again, I'm not objecting. 8 You can ask all the question you want. I find it 9 to be somewhat frustrating because this gentleman 10 was a research chemist in Pydrauls. Pydrauls have 11 not been found in the building, and I just don't 12 see the point of this, but please proceed. 13 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) All right. 14 Talking about Pydraul 625, do you recall having any 15 discussions with anyone in the medical department 16 about possible health effects from PCB's in Pydraul 17 625? 18 A. I do not recall. 19 Q. Do you recall having any discussions with 20 anyone within your research group about possible 21 health effects from PCB's in Pydraul 625? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Let's move on to Pydraul F-9. What was 24 the function of this product? 25 A. It was the beginning of the line of JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027898 ROGER E. HATTON 1 Pydrauls It was the first one. 62 2 Q. And it was used as a hydraulic fluid? 3 A. Yes . 4 Q. And any particular applications? 5 A. Mostly -dyer casting metal handling, other 6 problems involving exposure to high temperatures or 7 fire . 8 Q. Do you recall what particular type of 9 Aroclor was used in this product? 10 A. No, I do not. 11 Q. Did you have any involvement with the 12 medical department about possible health hazards 13 from PCB's in this product? 14 A. They provided the handling statement. 15 Q. Again, the same procedure you already 16 described in your testimony? 17 A. Yes, yes. 18 Q. Did you do any independent research 19 yourself about possible health effects from PCB's 20 in this product? 21 A. No. 22 MR. GOUTMAN: This witness has never done 23 any research on health effects of PCB's. That can 24 be established with one question and one answer. 25 You don't have to go through each question. He's JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027899 ROGER E. HATTON 63 1 not a toxicologist. He is a chemist. 2 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: Let him testify, 3 okay? 4 MR. GOUTMAN: Ask him the question. 5 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: I'm trying to. 6 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Let's go to 7 the Pydraul A-200 product, Mr. Hatton. Did this 8 product contain PCB's? 9 MR. GOUTMAN: Excuse me, it's Dr. 10 Hatton. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) What 13 particular type of Aroclor did this contain? 14 A. I do not remember. 15 Q. And do you recall having any particular 16 discussions with the medical department about 17 health effects of PCB's in this product? 18 A. Same answer as before. 19 Q. Next is the Pydraul or the Pydraul 540 20 product. 21 A. Uh-huh. 22 Q. Did this product contain PCB's? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Do you recall what particular type of 25 Aroclor was contained within this product? JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES .' WATER PCB-SD0000027900 ROGER E. HATTON 64 1 A. No. 2 Q. Did you have any discussions with the 3 medical department or any of the toxicologists 4 about possible health effects from PCB's in this 5 product? 6 A. They provided the handling statement. 7 Q. The Pydraul 280 product, did that contain 8 PCBf s ? 9 A. That, I do not remember for sure. 10 Q. Do you have any recollection of this 11 product at all? 12 A. No. 13 Q. What about the sealant product line. Dr. 14 Hatton, did you have any responsibility for PCB use 15 in sealants? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Was sealants handled by a separate 18 marketing group? 19 A. I do not know. 20 Q. Did you do any research on PCB use in 21 sealants - - 22 A. No. 23 Q. -- during your tenure. 24 Was there a separate research group that 25 would have handled that research? JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES . WATER PCB-SD0000027901 ROGER E. HATTON 65 1 A. We wouldn't have. I don't know whether 2 they had a group for it or not. 3 Q. Do you know whether or not Monsanto 4 produced any sealants or caulks that contained 5 PCB's in them? 6 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. There's been no 7 allegation that Monsanto'ever manufactured caulk or 8 sealants containing PCB's in your complaint or 9 otherwise. But go ahead, you can answer. 10 A. I just don't know. I just don't know. 11 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Dr. Hatton, 12 did you have any responsibility for the decision to 13 discontinue the use of Aroclors in the Pydraul 14 product line? 15 A. No. I was not a member of the committee 16 that made the decision. 17 Q. Who were members of that committee, if 18 you recall? 19 A. It was headed up by Bill Pappageorge 20 (phonetic), and I do not recollect the members of 21 the committee. 22 Q. Was anyone in the marketing department a 23 member of that committee? 24 A. If I can't remember who they were, I sure 25 can't remember what they did. JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES _ WATER PCB-SD0000027902 ROGER E. HATTON 66 1 Q. When do you recall being informed? 2 MR. GOUTMAN: Are we done with this? 3 MR. ROUX: You want to get into the NCR 4 Paper? 5 MR. GOUTMAN: Go ahead, I'm sorry to 6 interrupt. There was a pending question. I didn't 7 mean to interrupt. ' 8 Q. Dr. Hatton, do you know where Aroclors 9 were produced by Monsanto, what particular plants 10 produce them? 11 A. I'm aware, or I remember two locations, 12 one of which was Anniston, Alabama, and one I think 13 was the so called Plant B in Illinois. 14 Q. Is that the plant located in Sauget, 15 Illinois? 16 A. Yes. We called it Plant B. It's called 17 -- it's been called the Krummrich plant. It's had 18 a half a dozen other names. 19 Q. Also known as the WKG plant? 20 A. Bill Krummrich was one of my better 21 bosses. 22 Q. Which plant produced the Pydraul product 23 line? 24 A. The only plant that I remember that did 25 it for sure was the JF Queeny plant in St. Louis, JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES . WATER PCB-SD0000027903 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ROGER E. HATTON or also called Plant A. 67 Q. Did you visit that plant from time to time to observe production of this product? A. No. It was not a routine responsibility of mine. Q. Again, referring to the Aroclor products, you mentioned those were 'produced at two plants, Anniston, Alabama and Sauget, Illinois? A. I mentioned that I remember two. I would not go on the record as saying that they weren't produced elsewhere. Q. Did you ever have opportunity to observe the production of Aroclor at the Sauget plant? A. No. Q. Did you ever have opportunity to observe production of Aroclors at the Anniston, Alabama plant? A. No. Q. Are you familiar at all with what policies for personal protective measure might have been in place at those plants during the Aroclor production? MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to form. You may answer. A. No. I -- no. JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES .' WATER PCB-SD0000027904 ROGER E. HATTON 68 1 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Do you have 2 any knowledge about who would be responsible for 3 health and safety issues for Monsanto workers that 4 would be involved in Aroclor production? 5 MR. GOUTMAN: You mean other than the 6 medical department? 7 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: Well, why don't 8 you let him answer. 9 MR. GOUTMAN: I thought you covered this 10 already. That's why I said - 11 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: I'm talking about 12 in-plant. 13 MR. GOUTMAN: Within the plant, okay. 14 A. Such items were the responsibility of the 15 plant manager and his working group, whoever it 16 might have been, and overall responsibility back to 17 the medical department. 18 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) During the 19 time that Aroclors were produced, do you recall who 20 the manager of the Sauget, Illinois plant was? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Do you remember the time that Aroclors 23 were produced, do you know who the plant manager of 24 the Anniston, Alabama plant was? 25 A. No. JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES ' WATER PCB-SD0000027905 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ROGER E. HATTON 69 Q. Do you know who would have been responsible for health and safety and worker protection within those plants during that time period? A. No. Q. Do you know whether or not Monsanto had a policy to medically monitor workers who were exposed to Aroclors during production at those plants? MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form. You can answer if you know what the question means, what medical monitoring means. A. I do not know who is responsible, other than back at that time the medical department. Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Do you know whe-ther or not Monsanto had a policy recording spills of Aroclor within these plants during production? A. I did not know, I do not know. Q. That would have been a responsibility for the plant manager or those underneath them? A. Uh-huh. MR. PENDERGAST: That's a yes? ' A. Yes, uh-huh. Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Are you aware JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027906 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ROGER E. HATTON 70 of any claims or lawsuits by former workers or workers of Monsanto alleging health effects - strike that question. Are you aware of any claims or lawsuits by Monsanto workers alleging personal injury from exposure to PCB's while they worked at those plants? ' A. No, I'm not aware of any. MR. ROUX: You mean employees of Monsanto? MR. GOUTMAN: I think that was the question. MR. ROUX: I think he said workers, because we know there are other lawsuits out there by people. MR. GOUTMAN: Not from the Monsanto plant, but anyway, James, I don't think the question is restricted to that. Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Dr. Hatton, did you ever do any research on pyrolysis of Aroclor PCB's? MR. GOUTMAN: Pyrolysis, you mean? MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: Yes. A. The only work that I remember doing was related to the fire resistance of ingredients that JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027907 ROGER E. HATTON 71 1 went into the Pydrauls and the Pydrauls themselves. 2 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Do you recall 3 when this work took place? 4 A. I guess -- well, -- there is no answer to 5 your question. During my entire career at 6 Monsanto, I was highly involved in fire resistant* my7 testing of fluids, and committee work that we 8 have already been through were of -- that was 9 involved in developing test methods and trying to 10 standardize and that sort of thing. 11 Q. Did you do any work on pyrolysis of 12 Aroclor 1242? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Did you do any work to determine how much 15 PCB's would be vented during the manufacturing 16 process? 17 A. No. 18 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. I'm sorry -- 19 of Aroclors? Go ahead and answer. 20 A. No. 21 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Did you do any 22 work on the persistence of PCB's in the 23 environment? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Are you aware of any work that was done JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027908 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ROGER E. HATTON by Monsanto on that question? 72 answer. MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to form. You may A. I don't -- I'd say no. Q. Did you discuss the persistence of PCB's in the environment with anyone in the medical department? ' MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to form. You may answer. A. I don't recall any specific discussions. (Whereupon, a short recess was taken.) Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Dr. Hatton, we are back on the record. Do you know when Monsanto began development of non-PCB containing hydraulic fluids? A. I need too look at that again. Would you restate that question? I want to be sure I know what fluids you're talking about. Q. Well, my question was do you know when Monsanto began the development of non-PCB containing hydraulic fluids? A. Yes. Q. When was that, sir? A. 1948. Q. Did you have any involvement in the JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027909 ROGER E. HATTON 73 1 development of non-PCB containing hydraulic fluids? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Is that something that you started on as 4 a research chemist when you joined the company in 5 1948? 6 A. No. It's an area that got started after 7 I was with the company, dnd we are -- the 8 application -- there was aircraft hydraulic fluids 9 and PCB's were never used in any of the aircraft 10 hydraulic fluids. 11 Q. When did Monsanto begin development of 12 non-PCB hydraulic fluids to replace the PCB 13 containing Pydraul line? 14 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to form. 15 A. I don't know. 16 * Q* (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Looking back 17 at this document that we have marked as Exhibit 2, 18 it lists a number of -- page seven, it lists a 19 number of dates: September, 1970 and December, 20 1970 as target dates for discontinuing Aroclor 21 applications. Do you see that, sir? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Do you recall whether or not Pydraul AC 24 was discontinued in September, 1970? 25 A. I do not. JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES . WATER PCB-SD0000027910 ROGER E. HATTON 74 1 Q. Do you recall whether or not its function 2 was replaced by a non-PCB containing hydraulic 3 fluid? 4 A. I do not. 5 Q. With respect to the other Pydraul 6 products - - 7 MR. GOUTMAN: I assume you mean replaced 8 by Monsanto? 9 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Yes. With 10 respect to the other Pydraul products that are 11 listed on this page, do you recall whether or not 12 any of these were replaced by non-PCB containing 13 hydraulic fluids by Monsanto? 14 A. I certainly do not remember the dates 15 which this occurred. I am aware of work, which I 16 was*not involved in this, which alternate products 17 were made for the customers. 18 Q. Who was involved with the development of 19 alternate products for customers? 20 MR. PENDERGAST: Specifically in the 21 Pydraul line? 22 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: Specifically in 23 the Pydraul line. 24 A. I do not recall the name of the group 25 leader who would have been in charge of this after JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES _' WATER PCB-SD0000027911 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ROGER E. HATTON I left Monsanto. 75 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Do you recall any of the individuals who have worked on that proj ect? A. L.R. Stark would have been involved definitely. Q. What was Mr. Stark's position in the company? A. I think they called him a research engineer, his background. Q. Do you recall whether or not sales of chlorinated biphenyl based hydraulic fluids were discontinued by Monsanto in 1971? MR. GOUTMAN: Would you read back the question. please? Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Do you recall whether or not sales of chlorinated biphenyl based hydraulic fluids were discontinued by Monsanto in 1971? A. I'm not aware of the exact date in which the products were withdrawn. Q. Do you have a reasonable estimate about when that occurred? A. Early '70s. Q. Do you have any recollection about when JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027912 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ROGER E. HATTON 76 chlorinated biphenyl plasticizers were phased out by Monsanto? A. No. Q. Again, did you have any role in research for that particular product line? A. No. Q. Do you recall When sales of chlorinated biphenyl based vacuum pumped fluids were discontinued by Monsanto? A. I'm having trouble putting a date on it, but I recall that being done. Q. Would it have been within the same time frame as discontinuing the PCB based hydraulic fluids? A. I do not know. Q. From the time period of 1960 to 1968, Mr. -- or Dr. Hatton, who did you report to, who was your immediate superior? A. '60 to '68? Q. Yes. A. Oh, a series of people. Let's see, I guess I worked for PeyLun (phenofeie). for a while. I worked for George Fague (phonetic). And I think I was assigned to David Woods for maybe a year. Ned Klein was there at one time. And I'm not sure JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027913 ROGER E. HATTON 77 1 that there wasn't others during that time period. 2 Q. During this time period, what was 3 Mr. Peyton's job title? 4 MR. GOUTMAN: He's being deposed on 5 Friday. You could get that from him. 6 MR. PENDERGAST: Calls for speculation. 7 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) How about 8 George Fague, do you recall his title? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Do you recall what responsibilities he 11 had? 12 A. He was my boss. 13 Q. He was in charge of the research 14 division? 15 A. No. Look at what we are talking about, 16 we are talking about the development department. 17 Q. How about David Woods, what was his 18 title? 19 A. Same answer. 20 Q. What about Mr. Ned Klein, what was his 21 responsibility? 22 A. He was in charge of the commercial 23 development department, I think, when I joined the 24 department. 25 Q. During the time period from 1962 to 1982, JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027914 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ROGER E. HATTON who did you report to? 78 A. '62 to? Q. Excuse me, '68 to '82 . A. Again, it was a series of people: Frank Langenfeld (phonetic) was one of them that I reported to at that time. But there were many changes, and I can't remember all of Jchen people. Q. Do you recall what Mr. Langenfeld's job title was? A. He was in - - no , I do not recall his job title. Q. Do you recall which group or division he was in? A. He was mainly interested in the Skydrol fluids. MR. PENDERGAST: Were those a non-PCB containing aircraft fluid , the Skydrol? A. Yes. They were phosphate ester products Q. Let's go ahead and mark this as Exhibit 3. (Whereupon, Hatton Exhibit No. 3 was marked for identification by the court reporter.) Q. Dr. Hatton, have you ever seen this document before? MR. GOUTMANs Meaning this particular JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027915 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ROGER E. HATTON 79 document with handwriting on the top and scribbled out stuff, or this label. MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: This label. A. I do not remember any of these labels that would say 10 percent Toluene on them. Q. This Aroclor 1254 label has a caution statement on this, correct? A. Yes. Q. Was that similar to the caution statement that was on the Pydraul product label? MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to form. You may answer. A. I do not remember. MR. ROUX: Could I please see Exhibit 3 after you're done with it? Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Let's mark this as Exhibit 4. (Whereupon, Hatton Exhibit No. 4 was marked for identification by the court reporter.) Q. Dr. Hatton, do you recall seeing a product label of this type for the Aroclor 1260 product? A. No. I do not recall seeing that label. Q. Do you ever recall having discussions with anyone in Monsanto about the dangers of JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES . WATER PCB-SD0000027916 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ROGER E. HATTON 80 prolonged and repeated contact with skin if Aroclor 1260 contacted skin? A. Not this product, no. Q. Do you have -- do you recall having any discussion with anyone at Monsanto about the hazards of skin contact for any PCB containing product? ' A. No. Q. It also has a statement, avoid prolonged breathing of vapor and dust. Do you recall having any discussions with anyone at Monsanto about the hazards of breathing Aroclor 1260 vapor? A. No. Q. Do you recall having any discussions with anyone at Monsanto about the hazards of breathing Aroclor vapor contained within the Pydraul product? A. No specific discussions. Q. Do you have a general recollection of having those discussions with someone within Monsanto? A. I was in contact with the medical department at all times on this. We did not we had no responsibility, and neither do I have any knowledge of toxicology, how you#d run the testing, all this sort of thing. That was not my function. JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES .' WATER PCB-SD0000027917 ROGER E. HATTON 81 1 If I had a question, I went over and talked to the 2 medical department, relayed the question, and they 3 took care of answering it. 4 Q. When do you recall first learning that 5 there could be health problems with contact with 6 Aroclor on the skin? 7 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to form. You may 8 answer. 9 A. I don't have a date. Industrial 10 chemicals, chemicals of all types are always warned 11 this way, that you don't bathe in them or use them 12 as hair oil or whatever. That's a typical 13 industrial statement. 14 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Is that 15 something you would have learned when you first 16 joined the company in the 1940s? 17 A. I learned that when I was in high school. 18 Q. I'm talking about specifically with 19 respect to the Aroclor 1260 or Aroclor products. 20 A. I have no idea when I learned that. We 21 applied this to all materials we used in 22 laboratories. 23 Q. Have you ever heard the term chloracne? 24 A. Sure. 25 Q. What do you understand chloracne to be? JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027918 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ROGER E. HATTON 82 A. It's an attack of the skin. Usually, I don't know all the medical symptoms, but it involves rashes and sores and anything that you can think of. Q. Is that something that you understand can be caused by exposure to PCB containing Aroclor? MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. No foundation as to this witness' expertise, but you may answer if you can. A. I don't have any specific recollection being informed of this or concerned about it. Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Well, sir, you told me you understand what the term means, correct? A. Sure. Q. Do you recall when you first learned of that term? A. Yeah. When I was in high school, acne that you got on your skin that's chloracne. Q. You associate it with that? A. Yes. Q. All right. Did your understanding of what chloracne is change after you came to work for Monsanto? A. I can't answer that question. I don't JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES .' WATER PCB-SD0000027919 ROGER E. HATTON 83 1 know. 2 Q. Do you recall whether or not chloracne 3 can be caused by exposure to PCB containing 4 materials? 5 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. Asked and 6 answered. You can answer it again if you want to. 7 You want another answer to the same question you 8 just asked two minutes ago? 9 A. Could you repeat the question? 10 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Do you have an 11 understanding that chloracne could be caused by 12 skin contact with PCB containing materials? 13 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. You can answer 14 if you can. 15 A. My answer is yes. 16 * Q* (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) And do you 17 recall when you gained that knowledge that 18 chloracne could be caused by exposure to PCB 19 containing materials? 20 A. I have no, no memory. 21 Q. Is that sometime after your employment 22 began with Monsanto? 23 A. I do not remember. 24 Q. Have you ever heard allegations that PCB 25 exposure can cause birth defects? JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES . WATER PCB-SD0000027920 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ROGER E. HATTON MR. GOUTMAN: In what species? 84 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: In humans. A. You say have I ever heard of allegati ons? MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: Yes. A. Yes. I have read it in the newspaper. Q. (By Mr. Brittori-Mehlisch) Do you recall when you have read those allegations? A. No. Q. Do you recall whether or not that was during the 1960s? A. No, I do not. Q. Was that something you discussed with the medical department at Monsanto? MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. He doesn't - objection, lack of foundation, hasn't been established whether, in fact, he read that while he was at Monsanto. You can answer the question if you can. A. I have no recollection. Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) You don't recall ever discussing the topic of human birth defects due to PCB exposure with anyone at the medical department? A. I do not have a recollection of that. JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027921 ROGER E. HATTON 85 1 Q. Have you ever heard of allegation that 2 exposure to PCB's can cause liver cancer? 3 4 about? MR. GOUTMAN: In humans, are you talking 5 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: Yes. 6 A. I have. 7 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: I'm not concerned 8 about bird liver cancer at this point in the 9 deposition. 10 A. No, I don't recollect. 11 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) You never 12 heard that allegation before? 13 A. I cannot answer a question, which says I 14 never heard it before. My memory is not that good. 15 Q. So your recollection, your answer is that 16 you* don't recall whether you ever heard this 17 allegation? 18 A. That is correct. 19 Q. Do you recall ever having discussions 20 with customers of Monsanto about allegations of 21 health effects from exposure to PCB's in humans? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Do you recall when you first had a 24 discussion with a customer about those allegations? 25 A. No. JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027922 ROGER E. HATTON 86 1 MR. GOUTMAN: You have to wait until he's 2 done. Doctor. 3 A. I'm sorry. 4 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Do you recall 5 who that customer was? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Do you recall whether or not that 8 concerned a specific product that Monsanto was 9 making? 10 A. Yes. I cannot name a customer, but it 11 was normal practice when I went out into the field 12 to take with me the product bulletin, which 13 contained the handling statement which came from 14 the medical department. If there were further 15 questions, I wrote it down carefully, went back, 16 talked to Dr. Kelly, and he answered the customer. 17 Q. You didn't have any responsibility for 18 drafting a letter replying to that customer? 19 A. No. 20 Q. That was something that was handle by Dr. 21 Kelly or the medical group? 22 A. Somebody handled it. I may have signed 23 the letter if they gave me a statement, which I put 24 into an introductory Dear Joe, and this was what I 25 obtained from the medical department, and I signed JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES . WATER PCB-SD0000027923 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 i t. ROGER E. HATTON 87 Q. You've mentioned from time to time you had opportunities to go into the field to observe customers use of the product? answer. MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to form. You may A. Yes, yes. ' Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Do you recall discussing any particular health hazards associated with PCB's in the product that you were visiting the customer -- strike that. Do you recall any specific discussion of PCB health hazards during any of these field trips that you had? A. Q. No. Do you know what health investigations the medical department made into the Aroclor product line before it was first sold? A. I do not. Q. Do you know what - MR. GOUTMAN: You're going to have to slow down your answers a little bit, so I can do my j ob. A. Q. Okay. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Do you know JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES . WATER PCB-SD0000027924 ROGER E. HATTON 88 1 what Investigations the medical department at 2 Monsanto undertook after the Aroclor product line 3 was put on the market? 4 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 5 the question. You can answer. 6 A. No, I do not know. 7 Q. (By Mr. Brittoii-Mehlisch) Dr. Hatton, 8 are you familiar with a scientist by the name of 9 Soren Jensen (phonetic)? 10 A. It does not strike a cord in my memory. 11 Q. Do you recall whether or not you were 12 aware in 1966 that Dr. Jensen made allegations that 13 PCB exposure could have adverse effects on the 14 environment? 15 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form. You 16 can*answer the question. 17 A. I don't remember, no. 18 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Do you recall 19 becoming aware of Dr. Jensen's work at any point 20 after 1966? 21 MR. GOUTMAN: He just said he never heard 22 of Dr. Jensen. What are you pursuing this for? 23 A. I don't remember any. 24 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Within the 25 trade associations that you listed on your resume, JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES .' WATER PCB-SD0000027925 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ROGER E. HATTON 89 do you recall any discussion of PCB health effects in any of those trade organizations? A. Not in the time period I was active. Q. Has there been discussion in those organizations at any point in time? A. I'm not a member of the organizations any longer, and I have no idda what they've done in recent years. MR. GOUTMAN: I don't know as Jensen had a PhD in '66. He might have been a graduate student at the time. A. I don't know who the gentleman is, I have no idea. (Whereupon, Hatton Exhibit No. 5 was marked for identification by the court reporter.) Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Dr. Hatton, do you recall seeing a label such as this for the Pydraul 135^product before? A. I do not recall specifically seeing this. Q. Would that have been a product that you would have had responsibility for assisting the drafting of the label? A. I did not -- my responsibilities did not include drafting labels. Q. Was that something that was performed by JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027926 ROGER E. HATTON 90 1 the marketing department in conjunction with the 2 medical department? 3 MR. GOUTMANs Objection to form. You may 4 answer if you know. 5 A. No. It was -- there was somewhere along 6 the line of my work with Monsanto, they set up a 7 label department, and the'y were concerned with the 8 format, the legal requirements and the wording of 9 the label. And one of their major responsibilities 10 was to coordinate this with the medical 11 department. And if I remember the rules and 12 regulations, we had to have a sign off by the 13 medical department, because I was also consulted, 14 but I was not responsible for it. I did not. 15 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Do you recall 16 when the labeling department came into being? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Was it in place in the 1970s? 19 A. Yes. 20 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. 21 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Was it in 22 place in the 1960s? 23 A. I do not remember. 24 Q. Just so I understand your testimony, j us t 25 so we are clear, you have had no responsibility for JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027927 ROGER E. HATTON 91 1 any of the wording of the caution - 2 A. That is correct. 3 Q. -- portion of that. 4 That would have been the responsibility 5 of the labeling department and the medical 6 department? 7 A. Uh-huh. ' 8 MR. PENDERGAST: The answer is yes? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Dr. Hatton, 11 are you familiar with the product Santosafe? 12 A. Santosafe. I am aware of the product, 13 but I had nothing to do with the development of 14 that -- of the Santosafe line of products. 15 Q. Do you know who was responsible for that 16 product line? 17 A. No, I don't remember who was involved at 18 that point. 19 Q. Would it have been someone within the 20 research department? 21 MR. GOUTMANs Responsibility for the 22 development of it; is that what you're talking 23 about? 24 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: Yes. 25 A. It would have been a research project. JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES . WATER PCB-SD0000027928 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ROGER E. HATTON 92 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Do you recall whether or not that Santosafe product contained PCB' s ? A. I do not, no. (Whereupon, Hatton Exhibit No. 6 was marked for identification by the court reporter.) Q. Dr. Hatton, do 'you recall seeing a product label for Aroclor 1242 such as this before? MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to form. What do you mean such as this? MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: Such as Exhibit 6 in front of you. MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. Vague. You can answer if you can. A. I have no memory -- I have no specific memory of this -- of seeing this. Q. We are under a large word, Monsanto, in the middle of the label, it contains the paragraph which states, this product contains polychlorinated biphenyls which some studies have shown may be persistent in environmental contaminant and, possibly, injurious to certain forms of bird, aquatic, and animal life. Extreme care should be taken to prevent any entry into the environment through spills, leakage, use, disposal JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES ,,` WATER PCB-SD0000027929 ROGER E. HATTON 93 1 vaporization, or otherwise. Contact your Monsanto 2 representative regarding reclamation of used 3 fluid. Do you see that paragraph? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Do you recall when this statement was 6 added to the Aroclor label? 7 A. I do not. I hdve no information on the 8 date of which this was. 9 Q. Did you have any responsibility for the 10 addition of that language to the Aroclor label? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Again, that would have been the 13 responsibility of the labeling department or the 14 medical department? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Over on the right, it says, waste 17 disposal, it says, used polychlorinated biphenyl 18 fluid may be returned, freight prepaid for proper 19 incineration at three cents per pound, correct? 20 Have I read that correctly? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Was this a policy that was also enacted 23 for the Pydraul product line containing PCB's? 24 MR. GOUTMANs Objection. No foundation. 25 You can answer if you can. JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES . WATER PCB-SD0000027930 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ROGER E. HATTON 94 A. I have no recollection that this was a Pydraul program. Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) You have no idea whether or not Monsanto offered to incinerate Pydraul for three cents a pound? A. No. I have no information that says yes or no on that. ' Q. All right. Do you recall when this offer that Monsanto made to incinerate used PCB's fluids first appeared on the label? A. No . Q. Again, you had no role in that policy? A. I had - - no. Q. Dr. Hatton, have you ever heard of the product Santovac? A. Yes . Q. I understand there are two products, Santovac 1 and Santovac 2; is that correct? A. There was another product which was called S antovac. We had a Santovac 5. Q. Did the Santovac products contain PCB's? A. One and two did. Five did not. Q. What type of Aroclor PCB did Santovac 1 contain? MR. GOUTMAN: Object to form. JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027931 ROGER E. HATTON 95 91 A. I can't remember. 2 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) What type of 3 PCB did two contain? 4 MR. PENDERGAST: Object to form. I just 5 as soon you use the term Aroclor. 6 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) What type of 7 Aroclor did Santovac 2 co'ntain? 8 A. I don't remember. 9 Q. Did you have any responsibility for 10 labeling any of the Santovac products? 11 A. No. 12 Q. So we are clear that that's the same 1 13 procedure that we have already described concerning 14 the labeling department and the medical department? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. What were the Santovac products used for? 17 A. Santovac fluids were used as working v : is fluids in vacuum pump systems. 19 Q. Do you recall when they were developed 20 and first put on the market? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Do you recall whether or not they were 23 discontinued by Monsanto at some point in time? 24 A. Yes, they were. ^ 25 Q. Do you recall when that was? - JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES .` WATER PCB-SD0000027932 ROGER E. HATTON 96 1 A. I do not have a specific date, but it was 2 at the same time that the rest of the 3 polychlorinated biphenyl materials were removed 4 from the market. 5 Q. Would that have been sometime in the 6 early '70s? 7 A. Early '70s is Close as I can recall. 8 Q. Are you familiar with the Inertene 9 (phonetic) product? 10 A. I'm aware of the trade name. It was used 11 for electrical applications. 12 Q. Did it contain Aroclor? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Do you recall what specific type of 15 Aroclor it contained? 16 MR. GOUTMAN: What's the possible 17 relevance of this to this case? 18 A. No. 19 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Did you have 20 any responsibility for the labeling of the Inertene 21 product? 22 A. No. 23 MR. PENDERGAST: Was Inertene a Monsanto 24 trade name or a GE trade name or Westinghouse? 25 MR. GOUTMAN: Westinghouse? JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES . WATER PCB-SD0000027933 ROGER E. HATTON 97 1 A. Westinghouse, I think. 2 MR. ROUX: To the extent, it matters at 3 all. 4 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Did Monsanto 5 eventually substitute Aroclors in hydraulic fluids? 6 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection, what do you mean 7 by that? I don't understand the question, 8 substitute Aroclors, you mean change 1240 to 1248. 9 Q. Did Monsanto eventually substitute a 10 non-PCB containing component for the Aroclors in 11 hydraulic fluids? 12 A. We did not substitute. New products were 13 developed. 14 Q. What new products were developed to 15 replace the Aroclors in hydraulic fluids? 16 A. Phosphate esters. 17 Q. Do phosphate esters have alleged health 18 effects on humans? 19 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. I don't know 20 what that means. Are you asking this witness for 21 his medical judgment? 22 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: I'm asking him for 23 his awareness of any potential health effects that 24 phosphate ester may have on human beings? 25 A. There's no way you can answer that JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES .' WATER PCB-SD0000027934 ROGER E. HATTON 1 question. Phosphate esters is a general 98 2 terminology, and it goes all the way from materials 3 that are completely innocuous to poisonous gasses. 4 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Did you 5 participate in any health and safety research with 6 regard to the toxicological effects of phosphate 7 esters on humans before they replaced Aroclors in 8 hydraulic fluids? 9 MR. GOUTMAN: That wasn't his testimony. 10 A. I did not. 11 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Do you know 12 whether or not the medical department was 13 responsible for that area of research? 14 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to form. You may 15 answer. 16 A. They would^jhave been introduced at 17 commercial products if they hadn't been. 18 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Was mineral 19 oil used as a substitutes or replacement for 20 Aroclors in hydraulic fluid? 21 A. Mineral oils have been used as hydraulic 22 fluid since the beginning of time. Earliest fluids 23 were mineral oils, petroleum fluids, any of the 24 names you want to apply to them. 25 Q. Did Monsanto use mineral oil as a JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027935 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ROGER E. HATTON replacement component for Aroclors in hydraulic 99 fluids ? A. I have been told that they did. Q. Do you know when this replacement occurred? A. Well, in the early '70s somewhere. Q. Do you know whi'ch specific products mineral oils replaced Aroclors in hydraulic fluids? A. No, no, I do not. Q. Are you familiar with the product Skydrol? A. What? Q. Are you familiar with the product Skydrol? A. No. It's Skydrol, S-K-Y-D-R-O-L. This is a fire resistent aircraft hydraulic fluid that Monsanto sold. Q. Did it ever contain Aroclors? A. Absolutely not. (Whereupon, Hatton Exhibit No. 7 was marked for identification by the court reporter.) MR. GOUTMAN: You want him to read this multi page article? Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) I'll just ask some foundation questions first. Perhaps we can do JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027936 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ROGER E. HATTON 100 away with him reading it. Doctor, Exhibit 7 is a article by Robert Risebrough and Virginia Brodine in the publication. Environment for the January-February, 1970 issue. Do you recall ever seeing this document before? A. I have no memory ever seeing it. Q. Did you ever rdad the publication. Environment? A. No. Q. Do you know whether medical department subscribed to this document or this publication? A. I have no knowledge. (Whereupon, Hatton Exhibit No. 8 was marked for identification by the court reporter.) Q. Exhibit 8 is an April 1st 1971 letter from Mr. -- Dr. Hatton to Don Raible of the American Hospital Supply Corporation, Monsanto Bates number MONS 089728. Dr. Hatton, do you recall this document? A. I saw it yesterday again. Q. Do you recall this inquiry that Mr. Raible made to you about Santovac 2? A. Not specifically. Q. Do you recall whether or not Mr. Raible raised any concern about possible health hazards JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027937 ROGER E. HATTON 101 1 from - - excuse me, from exposure to Santovac 2? 2 A. I can't remember. 3 Q. This letter is blind carbon copied to a 4 Mr. C.L. Bradford, who is C.L. Bradford? 5 A. I think he was one of my many bosses at 6 one stage. 7 Q. Do you recall What his title was during 8 this time period in 1971? 9 A. Other than boss, no. I shouldn't have 10 said that. 11 Q. Second paragraph or the second sentence 12 of the letter, the purpose of this letter is 13 confirm Santovac 2 is the same as Aroclor 1254. 14 Does that refresh your recollection as to what 15 particular Aroclor was contained in Santovac 2? 16 A. If I wrote it there, yes, that's what it 17 says . 18 Q. You go on to state, because of questions 19 raised by certain ecology studies, Monsanto has 20 decided to carefully control the uses and disposal 21 of the polychlorinated biphenyls. What certain 22 ecology studies are you referencing in this letter? 23 A. This is a statement given to me by the 24 medical department to put in the letter. 25 Q. Was this a form letter that you would use JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027938 ROGER E. HATTON 102 1 to address customer concerns? 2 A. It was personalized, but it's basically a 3 form letter. 4 Q. Do you know who within the medical 5 department drafted this letter? 6 A. No, I do not. 7 Q. Do you know whether or not Dr. Kelly had 8 any role in drafting this letter? 9 A. I do not. 10 Q. Is there any particular reason why a 11 Mr. J. O'Connell is referenced on this letter at 12 the bottom? 13 A. It says in the letter that I -- that I 14 had talked with Mr. O'Connell, and what's his name 15 -- and Swendson. So apparently, this was to let 16 him*know, probably confirming phone discussion. 17 Q. Do you recall any concerns that either 18 Mr. O'Connell or Mr. Swendson raised about possible 19 health hazards to human exposure to Santovac 2? 20 A. No. 21 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. You asked that 22 question about two minutes ago. Are you going to 23 circle back and ask questions over and over again? 24 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) What's your 25 answer. Dr. Hatton? JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES . WATER PCB-SD0000027939 ROGER E. HATTON 103 1 MR. GOUTMAN: His answer is no. 2 A. I don't remember. 3 MR. ROUX: May I please see Exhibit 8? 4 MR. GOUTMAN: Sure can. 5 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Do you recall 6 what steps Monsanto took to carefully control the 7 use and disposal of polychlorinated biphenyls at 8 this point in time? 9 MR. PENDERGAST: What's the date, again, 10 in the letter? 11 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: 1971. 12 A. I was aware generally, but I was not a 13 member of the committee that was making those 14 decisions and implementing them. 15 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) What was your 16 general understanding in April of 1971 about what 17 steps Monsanto was doing to control the uses and 18 disposal of polychlorinated biphenyls? * 19 A. We are going to get out of the business. 20 Q. Specifically, do you remember any 21 knowledge about what Monsanto was doing with regard 22 to disposal of polychlorinated biphenyls? 23 A. I was aware of the incineration program. 24 Beyond that, no. 25 Q. Do you know whether or not Santovac 2, JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES ' WATER PCB-SD0000027940 ROGER E. HATTON 104 W 1 used Santovac 2, could be returned to Monsanto for 2 incineration during this time period? 3 A. I can't remember specifically. 4 Q. Do you have an understanding of the 5 reason why Monsanto was getting out of the PCB 6 business during this time period? 7 A. The statement that was provided to me by 8 the medical department that's in this letter is my 9 understanding. 10 Q. Did you have any knowledge beyond the 11 understanding of the statement that was provided to 12 you by the medical department? 1 13 A. I don't remember what I knew in 1971 with 14 regard to rumors and scuttlebutt. )V 15 Q. What rumors and scuttlebutt did you hear 16 during this time period? 17 MR. GOUTMAN: He just said he didn't h* 00 remember. 19 A. I just said I didn't remember, and I 20 don't. 21 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: I wanted to 22 clarify it for the record. 23 MR. GOUTMAN: How could it be clearer? 24 The man said he didn't remember. 1 25 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Let's go ahead JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES . WATER PCB-SD0000027941 ROGER E. HATTON 105 1 and mark this as Exhibit 9? 2 (Whereupon, Hatton Exhibit No. 9 was 3 marked for identification by the court reporter.) 4 Q. This is a February 23, 1971 letter from 5 Dr. Hatton to Mr. M.B. Simms, the name of 6 corporation is obscured. The Bates number is MONS 7 089751. ' 8 MR. ROUX: What's the date? 9 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) February 23, 10 1971. 11 You state to Mr. Simms -- first. Dr. 12 Hatton, do you recall writing this letter? 13 A. Not specifically. 14 Q. Again, do you recall writing letters of 15 that type during this time period? 16 A. Certainly. 17 Q. Letter states. Dear Mr. Simms: This 18 letter will confirm our discussions this morning 19 concerning Santovac 2 as a replacement for Aroclor 20 1254 in vacuum pumps. Did I read that correctly? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Looking back at Exhibit 8, doesn't 23 Exhibit 8 state that Santovac 2 is the same as 24 Aroclor 1254? 25 A. That's what it says. JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027942 ROGER E. HATTON 106 1 Q. Do you have any understanding, as you sit 2 here today, why you would tell Mr. Simms that 3 Santovac 2 is a replacement for Aroclor 1245, when 4 in the previous exhibit, you identified that 5 Santovac 2 is the same as Aroclor 1254? 6 MR. GOUTMAN: That isn't what the letter 7 says. I object. It say they discussed Santovac 2 8 as a replacement for Aroclor 1254. It doesn't say 9 this witness recommended that or stated that. 10 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: My question stands 11 as it is. You can make your objection. 12 A. Would you go through it again? 13 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Would you 14 confirm for me, in Exhibit 8, you stated Santovac 2 15 is the same as Aroclor 1254, correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Exhibit 9 you state that Santovac 2 is a 18 replacement for Aroclor 1254 in vacuum pumps, 19 correct? 20 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. You may 21 answer. 22 A. Santovac 2 required some further 23 processing of Aroclor 1254, did not change anything 24 except its volatility. 25 Q. Would you explain to me. Dr. Hatton, why JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES . WATER PCB-SD0000027943 ROGER E. HATTON 107 1 you would tell Mr. Simms that Santovac 2 was a 2 replacement for Aroclor 1254 when you have already 3 identified the fact that Santovac 2 is essentially 4 an Aroclor or the same as Aroclor 1254? 5 MR. GOUTMANs Object to the form. 6 MR. PENDERGAST: That's not what the 7 letter says. 1 8 MR. GOUTMAN: That's not what the letter 9 says. Why do you persist in asking a blatantly 10 misleading question? 11 MR. PENDERGAST: I agree. 12 MR. ROUX: Not withstanding the tutorship 13 from Harrisburg. 14 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Do you 15 understand the question. Dr. Hatton? 16 * A. No. I don't understand it at all. 17 Q. Dr. Hatton, do you agree that Santovac 2 18 is the same as Aroclor 1254? 19 A. No. It is not the same as. It is a 20 material which is very closely similar to. But 21 what you are asking for is something the same as, 22 does it mean that you just took it out of one 23 bottle and poured it into another? And the answer 24 is no. 25 Q. All right. What process did Aroclor 1254 JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027944 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ROGER E. HATTON go through to become Santovac 2? A. Distillation. Q. What properties of Aroclor 1254 were changed by distillation? 108 A. Volatile -- can't even say the word, volatility. Q. Did it become niore easily volatile? A. No, less. Q. Again, looking at Exhibit 9, was this a letter that was of the form type that was provided to you by the medical department? A. Yes. Q. In the last paragraph, you make the statement that there are no distributors for this product. Do you see that statement? A. Yes. Q. Did Monsanto have a distribution network at one point in time in the Santovac product line? A. No. Q. It was always sold directly from Monsanto? A. As far as I can remember. Q. Was that the case for the Pydraul product line, also? A. No. JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027945 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ROGER E. HATTON 109 Q. What about with the Aroclor, PCB containing Aroclors, do you have any understanding about what the distribution was for that? A. please. MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. No, I do not. MR. ROUX: May I see Exhibit 8 and 9, ' MR. GOUTMAN: Sure can. (Whereupon, Hatton Exhibit No. 10 was marked for identification by the court reporter.) Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Dr. Hatton, Exhibit 10, a February 16, 1971 letter from yourself to Mr. Howard M. Berch, president of the Plastics Specially Incorporated Company. Again, do you recall this letter? A. No, not until I saw this yesterday. Q. In this first paragraph you state. Dear Mr. Berch: Thank you for your letter of February 4 concerning Aroclor 1254 and Santovac 2. Monsanto no longer offers Aroclor 1254 for sale. Does that statement refresh your recollection about when Monsanto discontinued at least the Aroclor 1254 product? A. Well, this was dated the 16th of February, 1971, so it was prior to that. Memory JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES . WATER PCB-SD0000027946 ROGER E. HATTON 110 1 says it was close to that. 2 Q. You also make a statement in the third 3 paragraph you may return used Santovac to Monsanto, 4 W.G. Krummrich plant supervisor, department 246 5 Sauget, Illinois 62201 for incineration and 6 disposal. You should pay the freight and will be 7 invoiced three cents per 'pound on the material 8 disposed of. Do you recall -- again, do you recall 9 when this incineration policy went into effect? 10 A. No, I don't know when it first started. 11 Q. Did you have any customers that took you 12 up on this offer to incinerate Santovac 2 for three 13 cents a pound? 14 A. I can't remember. 15 Q. Do you recall whether or not any 16 customers sent Pydraul containing PCB's for you to 17 incinerate? 18 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. Asked and 19 answered. You can answer it again. 20 A. No, I don't recall any. 21 Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Do you recall 22 sending any information to any customers about 23 disposal of Aroclor or Santovac 2 if they chose not 24 to send it back to Monsanto for incineration? 25 MR. GOUTMAN: I don't understand the JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027947 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ROGER E. HATTON question. Would you repeat it, please, or the 111 court reporter could read it back. (Whereupon, the preceding question was read back by the court reporter.) answer. MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to form. You can A. I have no recollection of doing so. Q. Do you recall any calls from customers about how they should properly dispose of these products? A. No, I do not. Q. Dr. Hatton, while you were employed with Monsanto, did you have any contact with the Saunaborn (phonetic) Corporation? MR. PENDERGAST: Object to the form. A. I can't remember that name of a company that I would have dealt with. Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) Do you know whether or not they were ever a customer of Monsanto before the Aroclor products? A. I don't know. Q. With respect to the Chemrex, the name Chemrex, are you familiar with that name at all? A. No. Q. Do you know whether or not they were a JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027948 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ROGER E. HATTON 112 customer of Monsanto for Aroclors? A. I don't even recognize the name. Q. What about the company. Advanced Transformer, have you ever heard of that company? A. No. I have no recollection of that. Q. How about the company Philips North America, you heard of that entity before? A. No, Philips has a pretty good stock, but then that's all I know about it. Q. Have you had any discussions with any manufacturer of PCB containing light valves concerning possible health hazards to humans? A. During one period in my career, I was given the job of introducing -- getting rid of Santovac 1 and 2. And I was also given the additional assignment of determining what replacement products were available and could be used in the electrical applications. Q. Let me go - A. Such as made some calls to various manufacturers in the presence of other people. And I do not remember whether this was one of them that I talked to. Q. Do you recall any electrical manufacturers that you might have talked to during JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES . WATER PCB-SD0000027949 ROGER E. HATTON 113 1 that time period? 2 A. Oh, Westlnghouse and General Electric and 3 the list gets longer and longer, but the companies 4 smaller and smaller. We visited -- by we, one of 5 the fellows working with me, we went to a number of 6 people that make capacitors and talked to them. 7 That was my education^^pariod. 8 Q. Do you recall any specific discussions 9 with any of these companies about possible health 10 hazards to humans from PCB exposure? 11 A. No. 12 Q. You mentioned that at one point in time, 13 you were given the responsibility of getting rid of 14 Santovac 1 and 2. When you use that phrase, what 15 do you mean? 16 A. You have shown me a number of letters 17 here. The purpose of this project was to introduce 18 Santovac 1 and 2 and let -- and no longer sell 19 Aroclors for that application. So that was my 20 assignment. And I carried it out as we have pretty 21 much indicated in these previous exhibits. 22 Q. Do you know what health studies the 23 medical department would have conducted on Santovac 24 2 to determine whether or not it posed any hazard 25 to human health? . JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES . WATER PCB-SD0000027950 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ROGER E. HATTON 114 A. I used the statement in paragraph three of Exhibit 10 from the medical department. Q. Again, do you know what specific studies they are referring to in that paragraph? A. No, I do not. Q. While you were employed by Monsanto, did you have any contact with Gustan Bacon Corporation (phonetic)? A. That doesn't ring a bell at all. Q. Did you have any discussions with any manufacturers of duct work that utilized PCB's in their construction? A. No. I'm sorry. I answered too quick, but the answer is no. Q. Did you have any discussions with anyone at the Certainteed Corporation concerning PCB's? A. I have no recollection. Q. And what about the U.S. Mineral Corporation, did you have any discussion with anyone at that company concerning PCB's or use the PCB materials in their products? A. No. Q. What about the Isoltech Corporation (phonetic). Do you recall that name? A. No. JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES .' WATER PCB-SD0000027951 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ROGER E. HATTON MR. GOUTMAN: Nor did it exist. 115 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: That's right. MR. ROUX: It's a good question, though. Q. (By Mr. Britton-Mehlisch) What about the PRC Corporation or the PRC Division? Doesn't stand for the Peoples Republic of China. A. No. It's Products Research Corporation. Q. Yes. A. I know who they were at this time period, but I had no contact with them. Q. What was your understanding of who this company was during this time? A. Oh, they made specialty resins, specialty adhesives, anything that had the name specialty in, they made. It was just a general sort of operation. Q. And just so we are clear, you had no contact with this company during this time period? A. No, uh-uh. Q. Are you aware of anyone at Monsanto having discussion with PRC about the use of PCB materials in their products? A. I have no information on that. Q. Thank you. Dr. Hatton. I don't have anymore questions. JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICTES .' WATER PCB-SD0000027952 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ROGER E. HATTON 116 Hatton. MR. ROUX: I have no questions. Dr. [EXAMINATION] QUESTIONS BY MR. PENDERGAST: Q. Dr. Hatton, John Pendergast. I represent Chemrex. And Chemrex didn't exist until 1988, so it's not surprising that ''you hadn't heard of them. In your work, have you ever worked with polyurethanes? A. No. But they sure make good paints and varnishes. Q. All right. Let me ask you this: What was it about the property of Aroclors that made them a good plasticizer? A. I have no information on the plasticizer application. Q. Okay. All right. Do you know whether Santosizer 278 contained Aroclors? A. I do not. Q. Would that be true of any Monsanto product marketed under the trade name Santosizer? A. I knew the compositions of a few of them, but I didn't -- was not directly concerned with their applications or their development. Q. All right. How about Santosizer 140, do JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES . WATER PCB-SD0000027953 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ROGER E. HATTON you know if that was a Aroclor product? 117 A. It was not an Aroclor product. Q. How about 148? A. No, it was not. Q. How about 679? A. I have no idea. Q. 160? I'm looking at a time frame of 1970 . A. I have forgotten 160. Q. How about 261? A. Same thing. Q. Would you agree with me that any Aroclor with a number starting with 54 would be a fceyfinffiL product, in other words, Aroclor 5442 would be a ter^anc^l^product chlorinated to 42 percent? A. I was told that somewhere in my career with Monsanto. I can't remember who or when. Q. Okay. Are you familiar as a chemist with the general properties of polyurethanes? A. That is as broad a question as I think I have ever been asked. Q. All right. A. You don't become a chemist, unless you know a lot of chemistry, a lot of odd materials. And that's one of them I think I could draw a JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027954 ROGER E. HATTON 118 1 structure for. 2 Q. Would you agree with me that -- do you 3 know anything about the use of polyurethanes in 4 sealants or caulks? 5 A. No, I do not. 6 Q. Do you know whether or not polyurethanes 7 have as a general -- a property elasticity? 8 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: Objection. Lack 9 of foundation. 10 A. I have no knowledge there. 11 Q. (By Mr. Pendergast) Would you as a 12 chemist have any reason to believe -- strike that. 13 Would you as a chemist -- strike that. 14 One more time, could you as a chemist 15 think of any reason whatsoever why anyone would 16 want to add an Aroclor based plasticizer to a 17 polyurethane sealant. 18 MR. BRITTON-MEHLISCH: Objection. Calls 19 for speculation. 20 A. That's beyond my expertise. 21 Q. (By Mr. Pendergast) Couple times during 22 the deposition, you indicated rather emphatically 23 that Skydrol did not contain PCB's. 24 A. That is correct. 25 Q. Was there a reason that Skydrol did not JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES . WATER PCB-SD0000027955 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 contain PCB's? ROGER E. HATTON 119 A. Yes. Q. What was it? A. Airplanes fly at high altitudes, and the hydraulic fluid on the aircraft goes through the nose to the tail to the tip of each wing. And it must be able to move at the temperatures involved, which minus 65 is commonly talked about, but it goes sometimes lower. The Aroclors as a group of compounds get like rocks at that temperature. Q. Okay. Is there - A. Therefore, you cannot push them down a hydraulic line. Q. Did you do any work with DDT while you were at Monsanto? A. No. Q. Were you familiar with Rachel Carson's publication of the book Silent Spring around the time it was published in 1962? A. I read it. Q. Just so I understand your testimony about Santovac 2, I think you indicated in your testimony that it differed from Aroclor 1254 in that some kind of distillation process was performed on the product; is that correct? JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027956 ROGER E. HATTON 120 1 A. That is correct. 2 Q. What was the process, to remove higher 3 chlorinated PCB's? 4 A. No. The process in making it more 5 suitable as a vacuum pump fluids, removes the low 6 ends. 7 Q. Okay. And was'there any suggestion at 8 the time -- strike that. 9 Did Monsanto produce any PCB's outside 10 the Unite d States to your knowledge? 11 A. Yes . 12 Q. Okay. Monsanto had a plant in England, 13 correct? 14 A. Yes . 15 Q. Did -- were you involved in any work to 16 compare Monsanto's PCB's -- strike that -- 17 Monsanto' s Aroclor product with other similar 18 products manufactured by Monsanto's foreign 19 competitors? 20 A. I'm not aware of any work. 21 Q. Did Monsanto have an ownership interest 22 in any of the foreign manufacturers of PCB's to 23 your knowledge? 24 A. Would you define foreign manufacturers? 25 Q. Sure. I think we were told by someone JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027957 ROGER E. HATTON 121 1 that there was a Japanese company, Kanajafukee 2 (phonetic), did Monsanto have any ownership 3 interest in that company to your knowledge? 4 A. I do not know. 5 Q. Can I take a look at Exhibit 2? Dr. 6 Hatton are you aware of any work that was done by 7 Monsanto or anyone else Concerning the issue of 8 whether PCB's would migrate from PCB containing 9 sources to non-PCB containing substrates? 10 A. I'm not. 11 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to form. 12 A. I'm not aware of any. 13 Q. All right. That's all the questions I 14 have. 15 SIGNATURE NOT WAIVED? 16 17 (Whereupon, the witness was excused.) (Deposition concluded at 12:00 noon.) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027958 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ROGER E. HATTON 122 COUNTY OF ST. LOUIS SS. STATE OF MISSOURI ) ) ) NOTARIAL CERTIFICATE I, SHERRI R. GAD, Certified Shorthand Reporter, a Registered Professional Reporter, and duly commissioned Notary Public do hereby certify that there came before me at the Ritz Carlton in St. Louis, Missouri, a ROGER E. 'HATTON, who was by me first duly sworn to testify to the truth and nothing but the truth of all knowledge touching and concerning the matters in controversy in cause; that the witness was thereupon carefully examined under oath and said examination was reduced to writing by me; and that this deposition is a true and correct record of the testimony given by the witness. I further certify that I am neither attorney nor counsel for nor related nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this deposition is taken; further, that I am not a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties hereto or financially interested in this action. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and seal this 2nd day of June, 1998. My commission expires March 30, 2001. [NOTARY PUBLIC] NOTE: The certification appended hereto does not apply to any reproduction of same unless under the direct control and/or supervision of the certifying court reporter. JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027959 ROGER E. HATTON 123 1 SIGNATURE PAGE 2 OF 3 ROGER E. HATTON 4 5 6 7 I hereby Acknowledge that I have 8 read the aforegoing deposition and that the same is 9 a true and correct transcription of the answers 10 given by me to the questions propounded, except for 11 the changes, if any, noted on the attached errata 12 sheet. 13 14 15 16 17 SIGNATURE: 18 19 20 WITNESSED BY: 21 22 23 DATE : 24 Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000027960 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 PAGE LINE LAWYER'S NOTES JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES 124 WATER PCB-SD0000027961 ROGER E. HATTON 122 1 COUNTY OF ST. LOUIS ) SS . ) 2 STATE OF MISSOURI ) 3 NOTARIAL CERTIFICATE 4 I, SHERRI R. GAD, Certified Shorthand Reporter, a Registered Professional Reporter, and a 5 duly commissioned Notary Public do hereby certify that there came before me at the Ritz Carlton in 6 St. Louis, Missouri, 7 ROGER %E. HATTON, 8 who was by me first duly sworn to testify to the truth and nothing but the truth of all knowledge 9 touching and concerning the matters in controversy in cause; that the witness was thereupon carefully 10 examined under oath and said examination was reduced to writing by me; and that this deposition 11 is a true and correct record of the testimony given by the witness. 12 I further certify that I am neither 13 attorney nor counsel for nor related nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this 14 deposition is taken; further, that I am not a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel 15 employed by the parties hereto or financially interested in this action. 16 * IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set 17 my hand and seal this 2nd day of June, 1998. 18 My commission expires March 30, 2001. 19 20 [notary_publicT 21 *NOTE: The certification appended hereto does not apply to any reproduction of same unless under the 22 direct control and/or supervision of the certifying court reporter. ______________________________________ 23 SHERRI R. GAD 24 Notary Public - Notary Seal STATE OF MISSOURI 25 St. Louis City ?^y Commission Expires: Msr. 30,2001 JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027962 ROGER E. HATTON 123 1 COMES NOW THE WITNESS, ROGER E. HATTON, and having read the foregoing transcript of the 2 deposition taken on the 2nd day of June, 1998, acknowledges by signature hereto that it is a true 3 and accurate transcript of the testimony given on the date hereinabove mentioned. 4 5 6 ROGER E. HATTON 7 8 Subscribed to before me this ________ day of ___ , 1998 . 9 10 11 [Notary Public] 12 13 My commission expires: 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 JURIST-BEGLEY REPORTING SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000027963 ROGER E. HATTON 123 1 SIGNATURE PAGE 2 OF 3 ROGER E. HATTON 4 5 6 7 I hereby acknowledge that I have 8 read the aforegoing deposition and that the same is 9 a true and correct transcription of the answers 10 given by me to the questions propounded, except for 11 the changes, if any, noted on the attached errata 12 sheet. 13 14 15 16 17 SIGNATURE: 18 19 20 WITNESSED BY: 21 22 23 DATE : 24 no if?r / Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000027964 1 ERRATA SHEET 2 PAGE LINE # change REASON THEREFOR 3 -----<4------ 4 _____ 5 _JA__ __\_______ 6 _J3___ :__________ __ _________________________________ _ __________*_!_________ 7 __]3_ ._Jk\_______ 8 __!2_ 9 1310 ________L3._. -- -- 11 12 -jsi _______5L__ 13 __ii ______L<L__ 14 _______2,__ _.^0Urv_ U_ JlIcl __________________ ________ ___________ Jl_______ 2\z\tft%yXQ/ ** ___ ____________________________________ IMtaXA_____________ rt 15 __&L_ _____ 16 __31_ _________3__ 17 ________h___ 1 8 _________L^_ 19 _^.4_ ____12. 2 0 __2l_ 21 332 2 __ _ _________L_ 2 3 __________Li. 324 __ *_ __________13- _ _^3r_ ______________ ___________________ /^<rx I } /dcrwxd ,,A. <0?J- W- a^M- i% </ve~ /* Jurist-Beg1ey Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000027965 1 ERRATA SHEET 2 3 XO s<y^c/*-A. 4 5 6 7 bX b _ /, 1 x^c. 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