Document 7M0rx5Bd659GLX9rLXgp2yEeB
Superior Court of the State of California For the County of Los Angeles
TRANSWESTERN PIPELINE )
COMPANY,
)
Plaintiff,
) )
) vs. )
)
MONSANTO COMPANY and )
DOES 1 through 200, inclusive, )
Defendant.
) )
Case No. BC 026959
Volume I
June 11, 1992 Deposition of ROBERT ELLIS KELLER, taken on behalf ofPlaintiff.
GORE REPORTING COMPANY
Boatmen's Tower, Suite 1175 -100 North Broadway St Louis, Missouri 63102 (314) 241-6750
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Superior Court of the State of California For the County of Los Angeles
TRANSWESTERN PIPELINE COMPANY,
Plaintiff,
) ) )
v No. BC 026959
MONSANTO COMPANY and DOES 1 through 2 0 0,
inclusive, Defendants.
) )
) )
Volumel
Deposition of ROBERT ELLIS KELLER, taken on behalf of Plaintiff, at the offices of Bryan, Cave, McPheeters & McRoberts, 500 North Broadway in the City of St. Louis, State of Missouri, on the 11th day of June, 1992, before J. Bryan Jordan, certified shorthand reporter and notary public.
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APPEARANCES: 2 3 FOR THE PLAINTIFF: 4 James P. Tallon, Esq. 5 Shearman & Sterling 6 21st Floor 7 725 South Figueroa Street 8 Los Angeles, California 90017 9 (213) 239-0300 10 1 1 Ms. Christie Patrick 1 2 Senior Counsel 1 3 ENRON Interstate Pipeline Company 1 4 1400 Smith Street 1 5 P. O. Box 1188 1 6 Houston, Texas 77251-1188 17 1 8 FOR THE DEFENDANTS: 1 9 Donald F. Zimmer, Jr., Esq. 2 0 Bronson, Bronson & McKinnon 2 1 505 Montgomery Street 2 2 San Francisco, California 94111-2514 2 3 (415) 986-4200 24 25
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1 INDEX
2 PAGE
3 EXAMINATION BY MR. TALLON
5
4
5 EXHIBITS
6 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 2 7 8 ......................
7
Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 2 7 9 ...................... ......................
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8 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 2 8 0 ...................... ...................... 4 8
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Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 2 8 1 ...................... ......................
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1 0 Plaintiff s Exhibit 2 8 2 ......................
1 1 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 2 8 3 ......................
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Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 2 8 4 ...................... ......................
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1 3 Plaintiff'1 s Exhibit 2 8 5 ...................... ...................... 10 8
1 4 Plaintiff11 s Exhibit 2 8 6 ...................... ...................... 110
1 5 Plaintiff' s Exhibit 2 8 7 ...................... ...................... 12 8
1 6 Plaintiff 11 s Exhibit 2 8 8 ...................... ...................... 13 9
1 7 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 2 8 9 ...................... ...................... 14 6
1 8 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 2 9 0 ...................... ...................... 16 7
1 9 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 2 9 1 ...................... ...................... 17 1
2 0 Plaintiff' s Exhibit 2 9 2 ...................... ...................... 17 4
2 1 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 2 9 3 ...................... ...................... 17 6
2 2 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 2 94 ...................... ...................... 19 1
2 3 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 2 9 5 ...................... ....... 194
2 4 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 2 9 6 ......................
2 5 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 2 97 ......................
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1 Whereupon. 2 ROBERT ELLIS KELLER, 3 of sound mind, having been first duly sworn 4 to tell the truth, the whole truth, and 5 nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, 6 testified upon his oath as follows, to-wit: 7 EXAMINATION 8 QUESTIONS BY MR. TALLON: 9 Q Please s t a t e y our f u 11 name for 1 0 the record. 1 1 A . Robert E 1 1 i s K e 1 1 e r , K-e-l-l-e-r. 1 2 Q And pie a s e d e s c r i b e your education 1 3 for us. 1 4 A . B . A . d e g r e e i n c h e m i s tr y , 1 5 University of Iowa ; M . S . degree , chemistry; 1 6 University of Iowa , Ph . D . d e g r e e in 1 7 chemistry, U n i v e r s i ty o f Iowa. 1 8 Q In what yea r d id you receive your 1 9 Bachelor ' s from t h e U n i v e r s i t y of Iowa? 2 0 A . 1 9 4 7. 2 1 Q And in what ye a r did you receive 2 2 your Master ' s ? 2 3 A . '49. 2 4 Q And in what ye a r was your P h.D. 2 5 conferred?
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A. '51.
oa Q. In what year did you begin working
3 for Monsanto Company?
4 A. 1953. '52.
5 Q. Did you begin work with the
6 Monsanto Company after finishing your degree,
7 your Ph.D. degree?
8
A.
Yes.
I had -- between the degree
9 and Monsanto, I had two years with Smith,
1 0 Kline & French Laboratories in Philadelphia.
1 1 Q. As a research chemist?
1 2 A. Yes, senior research chemist.
1 3 Q. Dr. Keller, you have been deposed
1 4 before in another case like this?
1 5 A . Yes.
1 6 Was it in one case or in more than
1 7 one case?
1 8 A. More than one case.
1 9 Q. In about how many cases would you
2 0 say you have given a deposition?
2 1 A. Abou t two .
22 Q. And do you recollect the names of
2 3 either of those two cases?
2 4 A. One I do. The other, not
2 5 specifically.
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1 Q . What is the name of the case that
2 you remember?
3 A. Outboard Marine.
4 Q. Did the other case have anything
5 to do with polychlorinated biphenyls?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And can you briefly describe for
8 me the nature of that action?
9 A . Very briefly , a s I r e c o 1 1 e c t ,
1 0 i n v o 1 v e d a building in San Fran cisco that had 1
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been contaminated by eq u i p m e n t where M o n s a n t o
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1 2 p r o d u c t had been used. I can't tell you much
1 3 more than that.
1 4 MR. ZIMMER: I can help.on that
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one.
It was the One Market Plaza litigation,
1 6 and his transcript was sealed along with that
1 7 of all witnesses taken on behalf of other
1 8 partiespursuant to an ADR confidentiality
1 9 agreement.
2 0 MR. TALLON: Are you using the
2 1 term "ADR" to refer to
e dispute
2 2 resolution?
2 3 MR. ZIMMER: That's correct. And
2 4 anticipating your next question, that's why 2 5 you didn't receive a copy of that particular
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transcript but I believe you did of the
Outboard Marine transcript.
MR. TALLON: That's correct.
BY MR. TALLON:
Q. Just briefly, Dr. Keller, when you
referred to the building in San Francisco as
having been contaminated, what about it was
contaminated?
A. I really didn't get involved.
That wasn't my role.
I can't recall.
Q. Do you remember what it was that
your testimony went to, what subjects you
talked about in your deposition?
A. Primarily, what Monsanto knew
about PCB's and when.
Q. Was there a particular Aroclor or
aroclors that you were discussing during the
course of your testimony in that matter?
A. I don't recall which Aroclor
product was involved. I think there was a
range of aroclors discussed.
Q. Dr. Keller, are you a member of
any society for chemists or any professional
society?
A. The principal one is the American
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1 Chemical Society
2 0 Are you a m e m b e r of t h a t s o c i e t y 3? 4 A . Yes. 5 Q And have you b e e n for s o m e time? 6 A . Yes. 7 Q . Approxima t e 1 y how long? 8 A . Forty-fiv e yea r s . 9 Q Have you ever held any p o s i t i o n s 1 0 o f f i cer or dir e c t o r of that s o c i e t y ? 1 1 A . Chairman of lo cal s e c t i o n s 1 2 Q Have you ever written f o r 1 3 publication by the American, that is to say 1 4 in a publication sponsored by the American 1 5 Chemical Society? 1 6 A. Yes. 1 7 0 On how many o c 1 8 A . Twenty , twen ty 1 9 Q - When you are r 2 0 twenty to twenty-five occasions, are you 2 1 referring to technical papers that have been 2 2 published in a memorandum form or in a 2 3 booklet form by the American Chemical Society 2 4 or something else? 2 5 A. Technical papers published in
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1 their technical journals. 2 Q. Have any of the papers that you 3 have published in concert with the American 4 Chemical Society addressed in broad terms the 5 subject of PCB's? 6 A . No . 7 Q Have you ever written a 8 publicati on in any other forum? 9 A . No . 1 0 Q . When first you began work 1 1 Monsanto Company in 1952, were you here in 1 2 St. Louis? 1 3 A. Yes, I was. 1 4 Q. And what position did you assume 1 5 upon entering e mj? loyment with Monsanto? 1 6 A. Senior research chemist in the 17 R & D department of the Organic Chemicals 1 8 Division of Monsanto. 1 9 Q. And broadly speaking, could you 2 0 tell me what responsibilities you had as a 2 1 senior research chemist when you began work 2 2 with Monsanto in 1952? 2 3 A. It was primarily to develop 2 4 analytical methods which could be used to 2 5 support development of products and processes
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1 out of the division.
2 Q. For approximately how long did you
3 hold the position as senior research chemist
4 in the Research and Development Department of 5 the Organic Chemicals Division? 6 A . Two years. 7 Q And then what pos ition did you 8 on? 9 A . I was promoted to project leader. 1 0 Q . And what did the responsibilities 1 1 of project leader entail for you in 1954? 1 2 A. Expanded responsibilities of the 1 3 senior research chemist function. 1 4 Q. And what expanded responsibilities 1 5 were they? 1 6 A. Broader projects, assignment of 1 7 one or two or more people. 1 8 Q. Assignment of one or two or more 1 9 people meaning that people now reported to 2 0 you for the first time? 2 1 A. Yes, mm-hmm. 2 2 Q. Was there one or two, or more? 2 3 A. One or two. 2 4 Q. How long were you in the position 2 5 as project leader?
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A . Two years .
Q Until approximately 1956?
A . Yes, that would be right, '55 and
'56.
Q-
in 1956?
And what position did you take on
A . That was research group leader.
Q Was that also in the Organic
Chemical s Division?
A . Yes.
Q And I was assuming, but simply to
make c1e ar, was your position as project
leader a Iso in the Organic Chemicals Division ?
A . Yes, mm-hmm. All of these are in
the Organic Chemicals Division until I tell
you different, at least.
Q. Thank you. What were your
responsibilities as research group leader,
beginning in 1956?
A. That was concurrent with the
establishment of a formal analytical group,
and as part of that, it involved expanded
analytical projects and support of division
research; increased personnelassignment.
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Q. How long did you hold that 2 position as research group leader?
3 A . Six years.
4 Q. That was until about -- 5 Q. 1962? 6 A. '62, mm-hmm, right. 7 Q. And what position did you take on 8 in 1962? 9 A. Senior -- or -- senior research 1 0 group leader. 1 1 Q. And what responsibilities did you
1 2 have in that role?
1 3 A. It was continued to be expanded 1 4 responsibilities with expanding analytical 1 5 into what's called spectroscopy. 1 6 Q. For the record. Doctor, could you 1 7 please define spectroscopy?
1 8 A. That's an instrumental technique
1 9 used for primarily analysis of different
2 0 materials for components. 2 1 Q. Is that different than gas
2 2 chromatography? 2 3 A. Yes. 2 4 Q. Was gas chromatography available 2 5 as an analytical tool in 1962?
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A . Yes.
Q. Doctor, if you can, would you
please define for me the term chlorinated
hydrocarbons?
MR . ZIMMER: As he sits here
today , or at any parti cular point in time?
MR. TALLON: Right now.
A . Chlorinated hydrocarbons, to m e ,
is some combination of carbon, chlorine and
hydrogen.
BY MR. TALLON:
'
Q. To youas achemist,
does the term
"chlorinated hydrocarbons" include the family
known as polychlorinated biphenyls?
A. It can.
Q. Does it also include compounds
other than polychlorinated biphenyls?
A. Yes .
Q. How long were you in your position
as senior research group leader?
A . Four years.
Q Until 1966 or so? A . ' 6 , right.
Q in 1966?
And what position did you take on
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A . Section manager.
Q . Of what section?
A.
In the
first year it started out
was physical analytical and instrument
development section.
Q.
And in
1 9 6 6, whatwas the business j
of that section?
A. To -- this was a continuing
support of Organic Division R
& D.
Q. What manner of support?
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A. Through technology and techniques
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supplied by the groups that I mentioned that
make up the section, analytical, instrument
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development, spectroscopy. Q. For example, what did those
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sections do to support the Organic Chemicals
Division?
A. All right, the instrument group developed primarily process instruments for
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monitoring plant processes. The analytical
group was, as I described earlier, directed
toward development of methodology and
application of same for support of R & D. The
spectroscopy group, same direction through
instrument techniques, excluding gas
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chromatography. 2 Q. Did you exclude gas chromatography 3 from your description of the responsibilities 4 of the instrument group because somebody else 5 was doing it or b.e cause no one else was doing 6 it? 7 A. Well, the instrument group was a 8 group committed to producing an end product, 9 if you will, a piece of hardware, so it, that 1 0 group could use gas chromatography but the 1 1 other groups, analytical, for example, would 1 2 use gas chromatography for analysis of 1 3 matrices of materials to get data on a batch 1 4 basis . 1 5 g. How long did you hold your 1 6 p o s i t i o n a s section manager? 1 7 A . Three years. 1 8 0 Until 1969 or so? 1 9 A . '69. And during the course o f 2 0 that , the last two years, the -- it went from 2 1 the name I gave you as a section to " app1 i e d 2 2 sciences s ection." The last two years o f 2 3 those three years, I was a section manager. 2 4 Q. And in 1969, what position did you 2 5 take on?
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1 A . Manager of Applied Sciences.
2 Q. How did that differ with what you "5 had done immediately beforehand?
4 A . Part of the same and more.
5 Q. What was the "more"?
6
A. Okay, let me justadd to this.
At
7 thatpoint in time, this was 1970, the
8 company had restructured and the Organic
9 Chemicals Division, of which up till this
1 0 point I'd been part of, was put together with
1 1 the Inorganic Division of Monsanto and made
1 2 into an operating company unit called
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Monsanto Industrial Chemicals.
At that
1 4 point, 1970, then the function of applied
1 5 sciences was created to provide full support
1 6 across its larger function of Monsanto
1 7 Industrial Chemicals.
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To theprevious groups that
I've
1 9 commented then were added -- well, let me
2 0 preface, there were twofunctions in the
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inorganic chemicals division:
Research and
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instrument group and analytical group.
These
2 3 two were joined together, then, as one unit.
2 4 Additionally, we had a computer
2 5 sciences group, applied math, radiochemistry,
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full radi ochemistry with an NRC broad 2 license, so that we had a complementary 2 supportin g skills put together as a broad 4 base from that point on, and I was in that 5 posi tion for eleven years. 6 Q You were in the position as 7 Manager o f Applied Sciences? 8 A . Applied Sciences for Monsanto 9 Industria 1 Chemicals. 1 0 Q If you started in the position of 1 1 Manager o f Applied Sciences circa 1979, that 1 2 would bri ng you to about 1980, if you held 1 3 the posit ion for eleven years, right? 1 4 MR. ZIMMER: I think it was '69. 1 5 MR. TALLON: '69? 1 6 About '81, I believe. 1 7 BY MR. TALLON: 1 8 Q . '81? 1 9 A. Should be close. 2 0 Q. And did you take on a new position 2 1 in '81? 2 2 A. Well, the next, let's see, three, 2 3 four years, then, through some internal 2 4 structuring of Monsanto, then it became -- 2 5 then I became Manager of Applied Technology
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with thesame functions. Primarily,
name
change, and that was up until late 1985.
Q. And in 1985 did you leave, retire
from the company?
A. I retired and then did consulting
work as a privateconsultant
for the next
four years.
Q. Dr. Keller, in indicating that you
did consulting work as a private consultant
for the next four years, were you indicating
for Monsanto?
A . No .
Q. Did you do any work as a private
consultant during the four years that you
have thus far mentioned for Monsanto?
A . No .
Q. That would bring us to about 1989.
Since then, have you done any consulting work
for Monsanto?
A.
No.
Since then, I've operated,
been as an independent contractor on a
two-year project which I've just come off of
for the St. Louis Science Center and the
National Science Foundation.
Q. And are you currently doing any
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consulting work for Monsanto?
2 A . No.
.') Q. Are you -- just to be sure I
4 understood your testimony, are you drawing a
5 distinction between acting as an independent
6 contractor and a consultant?
7 A. Well, it just happens that I
8 committed the last two years to the St. Louis
9 Science Center and the National Science
1 0 Foundation to their project, so I took myself 1 1 out as a private consultant.
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Q.
And whenyou say committed,
you
1 3 mean that you were during that two-year time
1 4 period doing work exclusively for the Science
1 5 Center?
1 6 A. They had covered me, right.
1 7 Mm-hmm .
1 8 Q. Other than as you have described
1 9 since your retirement from Monsanto, have you
2 0 done any work for compensation for that
2 1 company?
2 2 A . No .
2 3 Q. Doctor, during the course of your
2 4 employment in the various positions that
2 5 you've just identified for us, were you
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responsible for developing any new products?
A . No .
Q. Is it fair to say from your
description of your job responsibilities that
new product development did not fall within
the ambit of your job?
A. That's right.
Q. Was it any part of your job during
the period from, what did we say, 1952
through 1985 to do testing on new products
before they were released for sale by
Monsanto to
consumers?
A . I can't recall any. I say that
because that responsibility fell to our
production plant facilities.
Q. And did you have supervision over
the persons who would do that work at the
production plant facilities?
A. I had a coordinated role with the
plant chief chemists, but I had no
i 1 i t i e s for their
within
each plant.
Q . Dr. Keller, during the period that
you served a s Manager of Applied Sciences ,
which I unders tand was from approximately
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1 1969 to a date sometime in 1981, to whom did
2 you report?
3
A.
Well, let's see.
In1969,
it
4 would be Oliver DeGarmo, and from 1970 on,
5 Tracy Patrick.
6 Q. And what position did your
7 supervisor in 1969 hold?
8 A. Associate Director of Research.
9 Q. And from 1970 on, what was the
1 0 title of your supervisor?
1 1 A. Same.
1 2 Q. During the period you served as
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Manager of AppliedSciences from
1969 to
1 4 sometime in 1981, did you report to the
1 5 medical director of Monsanto?
1 6 A. I had no reporting relationships
1 7 to him.
1 8 Q. Did the medical director have any
1 9 reporting relationships to you?
2 0 A . No . 2 1 Q. To use a term that you used a
2 2 moment ago, did you coordinate with the
2 3 medical director?
2 4 A. We coordinated, yes.
2 5 Q. And can you tell me how that
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1 coordination worked during the period that
2 you served as Manager of Applied Sciences? 3 A. Primarily, the Medical Department 4 was what we called a client. The R & D 5 groups of research were clients, and our 6 relationship was on a client basis, and with 7 projects that they requested, and if the 8 Medical Department had work of the type we 9 could support and they wanted us to do it, 1 0 they would make a request, usually through
1 1 the R & D group involved with that product. 1 2 Q. Do you ever recollect having
1 3 handled any toxicological studies at the 1 4 request of themedical director or his 1 5 department ?
1 6 A . Yes. Qualify. 1 7 Q Okay, what's the qualification? 1 8 A . What do you mean handle? Could
1 9 we play that question back again, please? 2 0 Q. Yes, of course. Did the medical 2 1 director ever request your group to perform 22 any toxicological studies with respect to 2 3 Monsanto products during the period -- well, 2 4 while you were at Monsanto? 2 5 A. The answer to that is no, because
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we weren't doing toxicological studies.
Q Were you ever requested to coordinat e toxicological studies at the
behest of the medical director that were
perf ormed by outside consultants?
A . Yes, and for analytical suppor t .
Q Calandra?
Are you familiar with the name Dr .
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever coordinate with Dr.
Calandra in the toxicological work done by
his group, or his company, for Monsanto?
A. Yes.
Q . Doctor, during the period that
you've described dating from approximately
1952 through 1950 -- 1985, did you personally
do any work in your department with or with
respect to a product sold a s Turbinol 15 3?
A . No .
Q Did you do any work in your department or do you know of any work done in
your department with a product known as MCS
15 3?
A . Yes.
Q. Did you do any work in your
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1 department with respect to a product known
2 OS 8 1? 3 A . Not that I r e c a 1 1
4 Q . During your - - I ' m sorry?
5 A . Can we play back the question on 6 the first two products before the last one 7 you mentioned? 8 Q. The questions that I had asked 9 were, did you -- well, let me just ask 1 0 another question. 1 1 During the period that you were
1 2 employed by Monsanto, did you do any work, or
1 3 did you know of work being done by those you 1 4 supervised with respect to p r o d u c t s sold by 1 5 Monsanto under the name of e i t h e r Turbinol
1 6 153 or MCS 1653?
1 7 A. Those products, no. That answer
1 8 should be no. 1 9 Q Which, of cou r s e , m a k e s me wonder 2 0 why originally you said yes w hen I asked you 2 1 about MCS 153. 2 2 A . Well , because 153 i s i n my mind 2 3 today , but back then, I had n o i n v o 1v em e n t . 2 4 Q You mean 153 is in your mind today
2 5 as a result of your preparation for this
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1 session today?
2
A.
Mm-h mm .
(Nods head in affirmative
3 manner).
4 Q. During the course of your
5 employment with Monsanto, did you ever have
6 any kind of communication with anyone you
7 believed to be employed by a representing
8 Texas Eastern Transmission Corporation?
9 A . No .
1 0 Q. During the entire course of your
1 1 employment with Monsanto, did you have any
1 2 kind of communication with anyone you
1 3 believed to be representing Transwestern
1 4 Pipeline Company?
1 5 A . No .
1 6 Q. During the course of your
1 7 employment with Monsanto, did you have any
1 8 communication of any kind with any person
1 9 that you believed to be employed by or
2 0 representing NCR, National Cash Register?
2 1 A. Not that I recall.
22 Q. Doctor, when you began work with
2 3 Monsanto in 1952, were you aware that
2 4 Monsanto produced products whose constituent
2 5 elements included polychlorinated biphenyls?
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A . At some point along the way, after
joining Monsanto, I'm sure I became aware of
this, but today, I can't tell you when.
Q. Doctor, can you define today your
understanding of the term "chlorinated
polyphenyls"?
A. My understanding is that it's two
six-member chlorine rings linked together
with varying amounts of chlorine attached to
oneor both rings.
Q. And is the chlorine ring to which
you referred also sometimes known as a
benzene ring?
A . Ye s .
.
Q. And does the term "chlorinated
polyphenyls" also describe compounds that
have more than two benzene
rings?
A. Restate that, please, to me.
Q . Yes. Does the term "chlorinated
polyphenyls," to you, also include compounds
that have more than two benzene rings? In
other words, three or more?
A. Only polychlorinated biphenyls
mean that to me.
Q. Mean what to you?
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A. That it's two rings.
Q . Okay, so a chlorinated biphenyl
has two benzene rings, correct?
A.
manner) .
Mm-hmm.
(Nods head in affirmative
Q . And the term "chlorinated
polyphenyls", does that mean to you that
there are -- that that term describes only
compounds with two benzene rings or can it
include compounds with more than two benzene
rings?
A. As I recall, it could be more.
Q . So is it fair to say that the term
"chlorinated polyphenyls" can encompass
chlorinated biphenyls but may also encompass
other substances?
A. That would be my interpretation.
Q. Doctor, are you familiar with the
term "chick edema factor"?
A. Yes.
you?
Q.
And what does that term mean to
A. It's skin rash or irritation
caused by product.
(Discussion off the record
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2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
and short break.) BY MR. TALLON:
Q. Okay, Doctor, just to jump back for a moment, to whom did you report in 1966, '67 and '68, before becoming Manager of Applied Sciences? You wer manager, as I recall.
A . Oliver DeGarmo. Q . Is Mr. DeGarmo Monsanto today? A . No . Q Is he retired? A . Retired . Q . Do you know whe A . Yes. Q Where? A . Kirkwood, Misso Q Doctor, do you your tenure any work being done with Aroclor 1242 with chick edema factor tests? A. Not that I recall. Q. Do you recall ever having reported to you that Proctor & Gamble was doing chick edema factor tests with Aroclor 1242? A . No .
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HARTOLDMON0008260
Q.
Didyou know
a Kenneth H. Maddy
2 during the course of your employment by
3 Monsanto?
4 A . No .
5
MR.
TALLON: Let me show you a
6
document thatwe'll ask
the court reporter to
7 mark as the next exhibit in order.
8 (Plaintiff's Deposition
9 Exhibit 278 marked for
1 0 identification. )
1 1 BY MR. TALLON:
1 2 Q. Take a moment and review that.
1 3 (Witness peruses said
1 4 document. )
1 5 BY MR. TALLON:
1 6 Q. Doctor, my question for you is,
1 7 having reviewedthe exhibit before you, do
1 8 you have any enhanced recollection about work
1 9 being done by Proctor & Gamble with respect
2 0 to Aroclor 1242 and chick edema factor?
2 1 A . No .
2 2 Q. Does reviewing that letter or that
2 3 exhibit supply you with any enhanced
2 4 recollection about the identity of Kenneth
2 5 H. Maddy ?
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HARTOLDMONOOQ8261
A . I just don't recall where he was
2 at that point. I don't recall. 3 Q . You don11 t --
4 A . I don't recall him.
5 Q There ' s a typed notation at the
6 bottom of the page. It says, "9/19/61, 7 talked with Maddy, and he is sure it won't 8 bother us. REK." 9 Do you know whether you are 1 0 responsible for the typed notation that 1 1 appears at the bottom of that exhibit which
1 2 precedes the initials "REK"?
1 3 A. I don't recall this notation. 1 4 Q. Do you have any present 1 5 recollection of having discussed with Elmer
1 6 Wheeler Aroclor 1242 and chick edema factor 1 7 tests? 1 8 A. I have no recollection of that. 1 9 Q And you are -- you know who Mr. 2 0 Wheeler is and what hi s position was in 1961? 2 1 A . Yes 2 2 Q All right, thank you.
2 3 MR . TALLON: Let's mark as the 2 4 next exhibit a four-page document bearing 2 5 production numbers TRAN 085902, 085919,
GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 31
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2
4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
13
14 15
16
17
18
19
20 21
22 23 24 25
Ci 8 9 2 6, and 085930.
(Plaintiff's Deposition
Exhibit 279 marked for
identification. )
BY MR. TALLON:
Q. Would you take a moment andreview
that exhibit, please, Dr. Keller?
(Witness peruses said
document. )
MR . ZIMMER: All right.
BY MR. TALLON:
Q. Doctor, do these appear to be to
you organizational charts for the Monsanto
Industrial Chemicals company technology
planning and evaluation for various dates i n the Seventies starting with June Is t , 19 7 2 ?
A . Yes.
Q
If you would f o c u s for a moment '
please , on the first of t h o s e four pages, the
.
organizational chart dated June 1, 1972, I
see over in the left-hand side of the page
that there is a box titled "Manager, Applied
Sciences," and than box is the name
"R. E. Keller." That refers to you; correct?
A. Correct.
GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 32
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d Q. Underneath the box with your name
2 in it, there are two other boxes. One
3 labeled "Group Leaders" and one labeled
4 "Seni o r Research Specia list. " You see those?
5 A . Yes.
6 Q Did the empl o y e e s whose name s
7 a p p e a r on those boxes r e p o r t to you as of the
8 date o f this organizati o n a 1 c hart?
9 A . Yes.
1 0 Q Did this org a n i z a t ional chart
1 1 d e s c r i b e the organizati on of your group a t
1 2 any t i m e before June 1, 1 9 7 2 ?
1 3 A . Essentially the s a me. You s ay
1 4 b e f o r e ' 72. Can you cl a r i f y that for m e .
1 5 Q Yes, in part i c u 1 a r , you had told 1 6 me t h a t you became the Manage r of Appli e d
17 S c i e n c e s in 1969 and served i n that pos i t i o n
1 8 through approximately 1981.
1 9 A . I believe I said that in '69, I
20
was a section manager.
It was still a
2 1 section. In 1970, when the company
2 2 reorganized, it became Applied Sciences as a
2 3 unit, and then I became a Manager of Applied
2 4 Sciences.
2 5 Q. So Manager of Applied Sciences
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really started in '70?
2
A.
Mm-hmm.
(Nods head in affirmative
3 manner) .
4 Q. And until '69, you were a section
5 manager?
6 A . Right.
7 Q Okay. Is the -- well, let me put
8 it to you this way. Did the employees whose
9 names were listed in the box a s group leaders
1 0 report t o you at any point before 1972?
1 1 A . Yes.
1 2 Q Did Mr. Di etrich report to you
1 3 before ' 7 2 ?
1 4 A . Yes.
1 5 Q. How much before?
1 6 A. Approximately eight or nine years.
1 7 Q. What was his job?
1 8 A. He was a research,senior research
1 9 chemist, entry level, as a spectroscopist.
20
Q.
Did
he have employees reporting to
2 1 him at any time during the period he reported
2 2 to you?
23
A.
Yes,
as shown by this diagram. He
2 4 was a group leader.
2 5 Q. He was a group leader who reported
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34 I
HARTOLDMONOOQ8265
* o him based on your reading of this diagram?
2 A . In 1972?
3 Q Mm-hmiti .
4
A.
Jim Mieure, Bernie Katla f s ky .
As
5
I best re call, Kinast.
Beyond that / I ' d have
6
to go t o other charts.
I'm not sur e .
7 Q Have you eve r seen other
8 organizat ional charts f or the group i n which
9 you w o r k e d which were m ore expansiv e in the
1 0 sense t h a t they include d names of m o r e
11 peop1 e?
1 2 A . I have seen them, but no t sine e
1 3 1 e a v i ng Monsanto.
1 4 Q In 1972, was Mr. Dietric h a s e n i o r
1 5 r e s e a r c h chemist, spect roscopist?
1 6 A . No, he was a group leade r i n ' 7 2 .
1 7 Q And what gro up did he le a d ?
1 8 A . The spectros copy group.
1 9 Q What was Mr. Emery's pos i t ion i n
2 0 '72?
2 1 A . Group leader of the Phys i c a 1
2 2 Chemi s t r y Group.
2 3 Q And he had employees reporting t o
24 him?
2 5 A . Yes.
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HARTOLDMONOOQ8266
Q . What was Mr. Fowler's position in
2 '12?
3 A. Group leader responsible for
4 process instrument development.
5 Q And Mr. Tucker? What w a s his
6 p o s i t i o n in '72?
7 A . He was group lead e r r e s p o n s i b 1 e
8 for the Analytical Chemistry Group.
9 Q Did he a Iso have employe e s 1 0 repo rting to him? 1 1 A . Yes, mm - hmm . 1 2 Q There is another box jus t
1 3 unde r n e a th the box identifyi n g the gr o u p
1 4 lead e r s who we've j ust revie wed, S e n i o r
15
Research Specialist .
Do you see t h a t ?
1 6 A . Yes.
1 7 Q . And what is the n a m e of t h e
1 8 gentleman that appears in that box?
1 9 A. Jack Hinchen, H-i-n-c-h-e-n.
2 0 Q. Did he report to you, or to one of
2 1 the group leaders?
2 2 A. He reported to me.
2 3 Q. And what was his job in 1972?
2 4 A. Applied math and statistics.
2 5 Q. I see from looking at the
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organizational chart dated June 1, 1972, that o 0. DeGarno -- DeGarmo was the Manager of
3 Process Technology. Was that a group
4 different than the group for which Mr. Fowler
5 was responsible?
6 A . Yes .
7 Q. And how did they differ?
8 A. DeGarmo's area was responsible for
9 developing new processes, whereas Fowler's
1 0 group was responsible for developing
1 1 instruments needed for those processes.
1 2 Q. I also see from looking at the
1 3 chart dated June 1st, 1972, that a
1 4 J. S. Metcalf was the Manager of Quality and
1 5 Environmental Control. Do you see that?
1 6 A . Yes.
1 7 Q Way up on the top to the right.
18
A.
Mm-hmm .
(Nods head in affirmative
1 9 manner) .
2 0 Q Did you know what Mr . Metcalf's 2 1 job was? That is to say, what his job
2 2 responsibilities were in June of 1972?
2 3 A . Vaguely
2 4 Q. Vaguely, what were they?
2 5 A. To review products and work with
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HARTOLDMONOOQ8268
1 the business group's research on coordinating
2 whatever would be needed for quality and
3 environmental concerns.
4 Q. Could you just flip for a moment, 5 Doctor, to the next page? It's the chart 6 dated October 1, 1975. The organization just 7 under your name appears to have been modified 8 slightly in that Mr. Fowler is now in his own 9 box. You see that? 1 0 A . Yes 1 1 Q. And what does that signify to you? 1 2 A. Mr. Fowler was having physical 1 3 problems, and it is my best recollection at 1 4 this point, there was an effort to share some 1 5 of the burdens of that group.
1 6 Q. And how did that result in his
1 7 being in a separate unit within your
1 8 department if indeed that is what this
1 9 signifies?
2 0 A. As opposed to group leaders? 2 1 Simply a different title, so it was a
2 2 different box. 2 3 Q. It is also depicted on the chart 2 4 dated October 1, 1975, that Mr. Metcalf, by 2 5 October 1, 1975, has the title "Manager of
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1
2 3 4 5 6 7
8
9
10
11
12
13 14 15
16
17
18
19
20 21
22 23 24 25
Product Acceptabi lity." Do you see that?
It's o n the, the right-hand side of the page
A . Yes.
Q Do you have an --
A . May I qualify thi s ?
Q Yes, s u r e .
A . Former comment on your question
about --
Q Fowler ?
A . Fowler . And I w a s -- I jumped
ahead b e cause I w as looking in my own mind,
Dr. Fowler passed away, and I'm not sure just
when at this point, but that's part of the
|
picture, and the basis for my comment. Q. Referring back for a second to the
October 1, 1975, organizational chart, Mr.
'
I
j
i
Metcalf, on this chart, has the title "Manager, Product Acceptability." Do you see
that?
I 1 l
A.
Mm-hmm.
(Nods head in affirmative
manne r) .
Q. Was that a new position as of
October 1 9 7 5, so far as you know?
A . S o far as I know.
Q . DO you know what his
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HARTOLDMON0008270
1
2
3
4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12
13 14 15
16
17
18
19
20 21
22 23 24 25
responsibilities were in that position? A. The only comment I can make on
that is, as I knew it, it was the same as, responsibility-wise, essentially, as he had
before.
Q. Do you have any understanding as to why the title was changed?
A. I think the company at this point was concerned about doing everything possible to address products and make sure they were acceptable, and it was a way of formalizing in that direction.
Q. The name change was? Is that what you mean?
A. Mm-hmm. (Nods head in affirmative manner) Yes.
Q. Doctor, are you familiar with the name Gunnar Widmark?
A . Ye s . Q. And will you identify Mr. Widmark for the record? A. He was Professor of Analytical Chemistry at the Analytical Chemistry Institute, University of Stockholm, Sweden. Q. And under what circumstances did
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17
18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
you first hear of Mr. Widmark's name or Professor Widmark's name?
A. It was a publication by Widmark and Jensen in the "New Scientist," December
of 1966.
Q. And that publication related to work done by Professors Widmark and Jensen with respect to polychlorinated biphenyls?
A. Yes . Q. How did that publication come to your attention, as best you recall today? A. Through our European Monsanto offices, London, and to our Medical Department and product business group. Q. In what fashion did the publication become known to you through the European Monsanto offices in London? A. Well, as I best recollect, there was a memo or memos to Medical Department personnel regarding this publication. Q. And how did that come to your attention that there were memos to the Medical Department personnel? A. The Medical Department, and I don't remember which one, and the business
GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI . 41
HARTOLDMONOOQ8272
1 group responsible for PCB-type products, PCB
2 at that time, brought it to my attention, and
3 I don't recall how that was done now; don't
4 know.
5 Q. When you state in your answer that
6 you don' t recall how it was done, do you mean
7 that to indicate that you don't recall
8 whether it was a memo , or a letter, or a
9 telephon e call?
10
A.
Correc t .
I don't recall what the
1 1 mechanis m was.
1 2 Q Do you r e c all whom it was that 1 3 c ommunic a t e d the info rmation to you that the
1 4 study by Widmark and Jensen had been
1 5 publishe d?
1 6 A . No , I don' t .
1 7 Q . Do you r e m ember anything about the 1 8 content of the commun ication that came to
1 9 you, notwithstanding that you don't recall
2 0 exactly what form the communication took?
2 1 A. I don't remember the content.
2 2 Q. Do you recall whether or not you
2 3 had any reaction to the information that such
2 4 a study had been published by Widmark and
2 5 Jensen?
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1 A . found that the article that
2 we're talking about in "New Scientist" was
3 interesting, somewhat surprising.
4 Q. Do you remember, by the way,
5 Doctor, getting an actual copy of the article
6 as published?
7 A . I have in mind a copy of it from
8 someone, but I can't add anymore than that to
9 it.
1 0 Q. Do you recollection being asked to
1 1 do anything or to take any action in
1 2 connection with the news being disseminated
1 3 that the work by Widmark and Jensen had been
1 4 published?
1 5 A. Well, the action that we took was
1 6 in concert with the Medical Department in the
1 7 business group to do everything possible to
1 8 get as much information as we could on what
1 9 this story really was and what it was all
2 0 about.
2 1 Q . Just to be clear. were you asked
2 2 to do something in that respect?
2 3 A . I don't recall if I was asked
24
personally.
I was involved.
Whether someone
2 5 specifically asked me, I don'1 t recall.
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1 Do you have any understanding as
2 to why such responsib ility would fall to you,
3 as opposed to someone else within the
4 Monsanto organization who was a chemist or a
5 Manager of Applied Sc i e n c e s ?
6 MR. ZIMMER : You mean other than
7 what he's indicated a lready about working in
8 concert with the busi ness group and the
9 Medical Department?
1 0 MR. TALLON : Right.
;
11
A. My respons ibility simply covered
j
12
any analytical aspect s of this interest, and
;
1 3 none of the other con cerns, toxicology, et i
1 4 cetera.
1 5 BY MR . TAL LON:
; t1
1 6 Q The polychlorinate d biphenyl 1 7 products were products manufa ctured by the
1 8 group to which your group was attached;
1 9 correct?
2 0 A. What do you mean, attached?
2 1 Q. I mean, you were the Manager of
2 2 App1ied Sciences in a group that manufactured
2 3 polychlorinated biphenyl-based produc ts.
2 4 A . No .
2 5 Q. Okay, then what was the connection
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44 HARTOLDMONOOQ8275
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
of your group with the products that included polychlorinated biphenyls?
A, That group was one of a number of functioning R & D groups by product area within the Research and Development Department, and our group was a part of a -- of technology, planning and evaluation, another group along in a stable of business R & D groups, and these were clients back to us .
Q. Right. I guess, just to be clear, to your knowledge, when the Gunnar Widmark and Soren Jensen work was first published, were polychlorinated biphenyl based products being produced by Monsanto Industrial Chemicals Company?
A . Yes. Q. And the technology administration and Applied Sciences Group was a unit within Monsanto Industrial Chemicals Company? A. Correct. Q. And the R & D departments were clients of your group, those were also within Monsanto Industrial Chemicals Company? A. Correct.
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HARTOLDMONOOQ8276
1 Q. Are you familiar with the name
2 D. Wood ?
3 A. My only recollection is, he was
4 one of the people involved with some
5 correspondence regarding Widmark and Jensen's
6 work.
7 Q. Was he, at the time of the
8 publication of the Jensen and Widmark work,
9 based in London?
1 0 A . Yes.
1 1 Q. Do you know if Mr. Wood is still
1 2 living?
1 3 A. Idonotknow.
1 4 Q. Where was he whenyou last knew of
1 5 his whereabouts?
1 6 A. Twenty-five years ago; I don't
1 7 know.
18
Q.
You have noinformation as to
his
1 9 whereabouts more recently than twenty-five
2 0 years ago?
2 1 A . No .
2 2 Q. Doctor, one of the things you said
2 3 to me a few moments ago is that you found the
24 article by Jensen and Widmark interesting and
2 5 somewhat surprising. What was it that you
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HARTOLDMONOOQ8277
1 found interesting, as best you recall today?
2 A. Interesting from the technology
3 standpoint of the techniques used to find the
4 polychlorinated biphenyl products.
5 Q. Do you remember what it was about
6 the techniques used to find the
7 polychlorinated biphenyl products that struck
8 you as being interesting from a technological
9 standpoint?
1 0 A. It was the use of a gas
1 1 chroraatrograph with a mass spectrometer as an
1 2 instrument system.
13
Q Did you , a t the time o f t h e
^1
i
14
publication , form any o p i n ion a s to whether
;|
i
1 5 or not the results o f the work d o n e b y
1 6 Widmark and Jensen w e r e t e c h n o 1 ogically
1 7 valid?
1 8 A. We had no reason to doubt what
1 9 they reported.
2 0 Q. Did you -- did there ever come a
2 1 time when you concluded personally that the
2 2 results of the work were valid?
2 3 A. Yes, later.
2 4 Q. Approximately how much later?
2 5 A. Within a year.
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1 Q. Doctor, I'd like to show you a 2 document which we'll mark as the next exhibit 3 in order. It's a one-page letter dated 4 December 29, 1966, and it bears production 5 number TRAN 055797. 6 (Plaintiff's Deposition 7 Exhibit 280 marked for 8 identification. ) 9 BY MR. TALLON: 1 0 Q. Would you take a moment and review 1 1 that, please? And by a moment, I mean as 1 2 much time as you want. 1 3 (Witness peruses said 1 4 document. ) 1 5 A. All right. 1 6 BY MR. TALLON: 1 7 Q. Doctor, do you recollect ever 1 8 having seen the document which is before you, 1 9 before today? 2 0 A . I can't reca 11 when I see this. 2 1 This was 1 9 -- December of 1966.
2 2 Q There's a -- although t h i s 2 3 particular exhibit suff e r s from h a v i n g been
2 4 photocopied a number of times, there ' s a 2 5 notation a t the top, in between t h o s e two
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HARTOLDMONOOQ8279
1 black circles, that looks like it says Bob
2 Keller." Does looking at that refresh your
3 recollection in any way as to whether you've
4 seen this before?
5 A ,, It looks like someone pen c i 1 e d m y
6
name on it.
I don't recall if it g o t to m e .
7 I simply don't r e c all seeing it.
8 Q . Did you know a Mr. Ford, employed
9 by Monsanto in Dec ember 1966?
1 0 A . By name only. I, to my knowledge
1 1 I have never met him.
1 2 Q And w h a t was his position with 1 3 Monsanto in 1966, as best you know?
1 4 A . I can't tell you that. I don't
1 5 know.
1 6 Q You indicated a moment ago t h a t 1 7 you'd never met him. Did you ever h a v e any
1 8 telephone communication with Mr. Ford o r any
1 9 kind of correspondence with him on the
2 0 subject of the W i d m a r k and Jensen work?
2 1 A . Not that I recall.
2 2 Q . One of the other things you s aid
2 3 to me just a moment ago, Dr. Keller, was that
2 4 in addition t o finding the Widmark and Jensen
2 5 work interesting, you found it somewhat
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
surprising. Can you tell me, please, what it
was that you found somewhat surprising?
A . Well, I guess thesurprising
part
would be that there appeared to be,
apparently, polychlorinated b i pheny1-type
materials found in aquatic systems. To our
knowledge at that time, that had never been
reported before.
Q. Wasthere anything else
that you
found surprising with respect to the -- your
initial exposure to the Widmark and Jensen
work?
A. That's primarily it, to my best
recollection.
Q. Have you ever met GunnarWidmark?
A. Yes.
Q And Soren Jensen?
A . No .
Q Did you take a trip to Europe for
p u r p o s e of meeting Mr. Widmark ?
A . Yes.
Q And when did that occur ?
A . The spring of 1969.
Q Just to touch back for a moment,
one of the things that you mentioned a moment
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1 ago is that following the announcement of 2 publication of the Widmark and Jensen work, 3 you and others took action to get 4 everything -- to do everything possible to 5 get information? What personally did you do, 6 or request others to do, on your behalf in 7 order t o get informat ion? 8 A . We felt th at if this problem was 9 real, w e needed to 1 e arn as much information 1 0 as possible as soon as possible. We 1 1 immediately decided to put ourselves in a 1 2 position where we would produce our own 1 3 results in terms of environmental findings 1 4 and get equipped with proper resources, 1 5 equipment, personnel, facilities, where we 1 6 could do work reported by Widmark and Jensen, 1 7 and as part of that, we -- the key, as 1 8 mentioned already, was a gas chromatography 1 9 mass spectrometer equipment, and the 2 0 equipment they had was put out by an 2 1 instrument company in Sweden, presumably with 2 2 the purpose of selling instruments, and they 2 3 used it. With our departure, immediately, 2 4 after reading this from Widmark-Jensen, was 2 5 to acquire this equipment but none was
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1 available in this country. Was not a shelf 2 item, it was a veryexpensive, even at 3 dollars in those days, so we ordered 4 equipment, the mass spectrometer from a 5 German firm, and this is in 1967, early, and 6 proceeded to get the other equipment, 7 appropriate gas chromatograph, decided that 8 we needed the proper personnel to try to use 9 this equipment, and acquired Scott Tucker as 1 0 a professional to work on this, this area. 1 1 And these were actions taken in the immediate 1 2 analytical area. 1 3 Q . And i n the i m m e d i a t e analytical 1 4 area , do you mean t o say or have you just 1 5 said that the t h i ng s you' v e just described 1 6 are the things th at f ell within your 1 7 responsibility? 1 8 A. They fell within my 1 9 responsibility. 2 0 Q. When was Scott Tucker hired? 2 1 A. 1 9 67 . 2 2 Q. Can you be any more precise than 2 3 that? 2 4 A. No, I can't. I don't have that. 2 5 Q. Let me show you, Doctor, a
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1 document that bears production numbers -- 2 a c t u ally, two series of production numb e r s , 3 but I'll use the one closer to the b o 11 o m of 4 the page, S CM 037311 through 314, and a f t e r 5 the reporter marks it, I'll ask you if you 6 can identify it for me. 7 (Plaintiff's Deposition 8 Exhibit 281 marked for 9 identification.) 1 0 (Witness peruses said 1 1 document.) 1 2 BY MR. TALLON: 1 3 Q. Have you seen the exhibit before 1 4 you before today? 1 5 MR. ZIMMER: He means other than 1 6 if it was shown to you by counsel. 1 7 A. Yes. 1 8 BY MR. TALLON: 1 9 Q Did you prepare it? 2 0 A . Yes. 2 1 Q . Are those -- w e 11 , is that your 2 2 signature which appears a t the foot of the 2 3 last page? 2 4 A. It looks like it. 2 5 Q. And it appears to be dated
GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 53
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1 3-10-69. Is that right? 2 A . Yes. 3 Q . Is that on or near the date when 4 you prepared this exhibit? 5 A . To my best recolle ction, mm-hmm. 6 Q . Is there any other handwriting on 7 this document which is yours? 8 MR . TALLON: And I 'll note for the 9 record that the only other place there 1 0 appears to be handwriting is at the top of 1 1 Page 4, the top of Page 2 and the top of Page 12 1 . 1 3 A . I assume those are my penciled 1 4 correction s , but I can't say for sure. 1 5 BY MR. TALLON: 1 6 Q What about in the upper right-hand 17 corner of Page 1? Do you see that notation? 1 8 A . Yes. 1 9 Q Is that your handw r i t i n g ? 2 0 A . Well, I can't say for sure on 2 1 that. 2 2 Q Do you know if that says "take"? 2 3 MR . ZIMMER: If it's not his 2 4 handwriting, he would be speculating 2 5 A. I don't know what that me a n s .
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1 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
BY MR TALLON:
Q D o you know if you took a copy o f
this exhi bit with you to Europe when you made
your trip i n 1 9 6 9 ?
A.
Q
exhibit?
I have no recollection of that Were you asked to prepare this
i--1 i--1
A . That I don't recall, but I
tell
you why I prepared it, if I haven't already
answered the question.
Q. Well, I was about to say, for what
reason or reasonsdid you prepare it?
A. It was primarily to have in mind
better the picture from Jensen's first work
to our departure time on our first trip to
Europe. It was no more than that.
Q. And just to be clear, Dr. Keller,
what picture was it that you wanted to have
in mind?
A. To have the benefit of, as I
already commented, we decided we needed to
get all information possible about this
situation, and the way to do that was to put
it together and document it accurately and
precisely, and this was
a proper time to do
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1 lt . 2 Q. And it was the proper time for 3 what reason or reasons? 4 A. Because Monsanto felt that they 5 needed to resolve this problem, and if we 6 were going to do that and if we were going to 7 commit considerable resources, we needed to 8 have the benefit of all the information that 9 anyone else had that would be available to 1 0 us , 1 1 Q. And, you know, I apo 1 o g i z e , I'm 1 2 not completely sure that you an swered the 1 3 question a mome n t ago. 1 4 Did someone ask you to do this or 1 5 did you create this exhibit of your own 1 6 volition? 1 7 A . I - - I don't recall if I was asked 1 8 to do this. I did it, it could have been 1 9 that I did it of my own but I don't remember. 2 0 Q. To your knowledge or rather to 2 1 your recollection, did you furnish copies of 22 this exhibit to anyone else? 2 3 A. I did not furnish copies to anyone 2 4 else that I recall. 2 5 Q. Are you able to discern, Dr.
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1 Keller, from a review of this exhibit, when 2 the equipment that you'd mentioned earlier in 3 your testimony today was ordered for 4 purchase? 5 A. I don't recall when a purchase 6 order went in. I do know that there had to 7 be at least a six-month delay on equipment 8 from Germany, upon receipt of order, and my 9 best recollection is that we had the 1 0 equipment, the mass spectrometer from Germany 1 1 and the appropriate gas chromatograph, and 1 2 it took to put those together, set u p 1 3 somewhat in operation by the end of ' 67 1 4 so that's the best time frame I can provide. 1 5 Q. You had mentioned that the 1 6 equipment was very expensive, even in 1967 1 7 dollars . 1 8 A. Mm-hmm . 1 9 Q. Approximately how much money were 2 0 you thinking of when you gave that answer? 2 1 MR. ZIMMER: For all of the 2 2 equipment combined? 2 3 MR. TALLON: Well, we were going 2 4 to discuss the, the particulars of it, but 2 5 I'm wondering if the doctor had a particular
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
overall figure in mind when he gave his answer.
A. Well, the gas chromatograph and the mass spectrometer and a year later, we added a computer system, which it really took to make it work, we had at least a quarter of a million dollars in it. BY MR. TALLON:
Q. To the best of your ability to say, what percentage of that $250,000 or so was represented by the purchase of the gas chromatograph and the mass spectrometer?
A. Well, the computer, the gas chromatograph, and the mass spectrometer would account for that 250 thousand.
Q. Right, and now I'm wondering if you have any ability to say what percentage of the 250 thousand were represented by the gas chromatograph and the mass spectrometer.
A. Okay. The mass spectrometer was around a hundred thousand. The computer was around a hundred thousand, and the gas chromatograph and periphery equipment, which I'm not going to try and describe, made up the fifty thousand.
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1*1 Q. In order for -- were those 2 expenditures authorized by you? 3 A. They were put through as a capital 4 addition request by me and approved in normal 5 changes, capital approval channels. My 6 signature was on it, but it wasn't a final 7 approval signature. 8 Q. When you say your signature was on 9 it, are you referring to a form for 1 0 authorizations for expenditure? 1 1 A. Capital request form. 1 2 Q. Capital request? Doctor, do you 1 3 have any ability to say how long after 1 4 learning of the Soren -- the Jensen and 1 5 Widmark work , yo u submitted your c a pita 1 1 6 request form for the purchase of th e 1 7 equipment to w h i ch you have r e f e r r e d? 1 8 A . I can 't recall anymore than I 1 9 explained on the time frame of how long i t 2 0 took to get the equipment, and when i t was 2 1 first physically put to set u p . 2 2 Q. And I believe you've testified 2 3 that it was set up by the end of 1967? 2 4 A. That's my best recollection. 2 5 Q. Therefore, the capital request
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1 must have been put in in time for it to be
2 operational by that time period; correct?
3 MR. ZIMMER: It's argumentative,
4
calls for speculation.
He's indicated he
5 doesn't know when it was made.
6 You can answer if you know any
7 more about than when it was ordered. That's
8 what he's after.
9 MR. TALLON: I don't think it's
10
mysterious.
I'm just trying to establish
1 1 that in order for it to be working by the end
1 2 of 1967 it must have been ordered in time for
1 3 it to be there and working by then 1 4 A . I c a n ' t give you a time when
1 5 was ordered. I don ' t know a t this p o i n
1 6 BY MR. TALLON:
1 7 Q . Do you believe it was in '67?
1 8 A . Yes.
1 9 Q. Did you have any discussions with
2 0 other employees of Monsanto about whether or
2 1 not to purchase theequipment?
2 2 A. I cannot give you exact names of
2 3 people, but it was our practice when we made
2 4 expenditures of that size, we talked, both
2 5 internally at Monsanto and externally, as
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1 much as possible to make the right decision
2 on what equipment to get, so with that in
3 mind, the answer is yes.
4 Q. I take it from your answer that
5 you don't remember individuals to whom you
6 spoke? Is that right?
7 A . No .
8 Q. Do you remember at any point being
9 requested to justify the expenditure?
1 0 A. That would have been in the
1 1 capital appropriation write-up.
1 2 Q. Do you have any recollection of
1 3 what justification you furnished for the
1 4 expenditure of $250,000 in 1967 dollars?
15
A.
Itwas to acquire this
instrument
1 6 and system for support of company product
1 7 development, as well as environmental
1 8 problems and concerns.
1 9 Q. Environmental problems and
2 0 concerns resulting from the Widmark and
2 1 Jensen work?
2 2 A . That could be a part of i t
2 3 Q Was there any -- well, was the 2 4 Widmark and Jensen work a trigger for
2 5 acquisition of this equipment or were there
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1 other reasons why it was deemed that in 1967, 2 it was appropriate to acquire the equipment? 3 A . It was -- it certainly helped. 4 Q. What other factors went into the 5 decision to acquire the equipment, other than 6 the help provided by the Widmark and Jensen 7 publication? 8 A. Well, structurally, we were 9 getting set up to provide more support across 1 0 the R & D effort, and it was a part of that, 1 1 but a large part of it, certainly, came from 1 2 our environmental concerns, including PCB's. 1 3 Q. Before the publication of the 1 4 Widmark and Jensen work, had you requested or 1 5 discussed with anyone the acquisition of a 1 6 gas chromatograph and mass spectrometer 1 7 supported by a computer system? 1 8 A. That was prior to -- 1 9 Q. Prior to the publication. 2 0 A. 1966 publication? 2 1 Q. Yes. 2 2 A. I don't recall on that. 2 3 Q. Doctor, do you have any 2 4 recollection of the limits of your 2 5 authorization for capital requests in 1966 or
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1 1967? 2 A . I don't recall, but it would have 3 been nominal, a few thousand dollars, in that 4 range. 5 Q. Is it fair to say that the amounts 6 involved here mandated the approval of 7 personnel and higher in the organization than 8 you? 9 A. Correct. 1 0 Q. Do you know to whom your capital 1 1 request form was sent for approval? 1 2 A. That would have been through 1 3 the -- my best recollection, that would have 1 4 been to the managing director level or 1 5 general manager level and I don't remember 1 6 which one was in place at that time, but it 1 7 would have been at a very high level. 1 8 Q. When you say you don't remember 1 9 which was in place at that time, you don't -- 2 0 are you meaning to say that you don'1 t know 2 1 whe ther the use managering director o r 2 2 general manager was in use? 2 3 A . Correct. I just don' t remember 2 4 Q. Notwithstanding the title in use 2 5 at that time, do you remember the person who
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1_
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
had the responsibility or ability to approve
a capital request of the amount that you've
referred to?
A.
I can't recall that.
I just
can't.
Q. Now that we've talked about the
subject for a few more moments, do you have
any greater recollection of having discussed
the proposalto purchase
the equipment with
anyone else working for Monsanto at the time?
A. I don't recall at this point
; i
j
!
j
anyoneelse.
Q. Does it refresh your recollection if I ask whether you discussed purchase of the equipment with ElmerWheeler?
A. I don't recall that.
. I!
' i
j
j
Q. Does it refresh your recollection if I ask you whether you discussed purchase
i |
of the equipment with Emmett Kelly? A. I don't recall that.
*
I I
Q. Does it refresh your recollection
if I ask you whether you had any discussions
about the purchase of the equipment with Mr.
Emery?
A. No. No, no recollection there.
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Dec cor, what did you do with the 2 once you got it? 3 We went f o r w a r d full-bore to get 4 it set up and operational. This was a 5 challenge, in that we acquired a German 6 instrument, mass spectrometer, and a separate 7 gas chromatograph, which had to be wedded 8 together through an interface or separator 9 device because of pressure differences, 1 0 extreme pressure differences between the gas 1 1 chromatograph and the mass spectrometer, plus 1 2 the need to eliminate much of the gas 1 3 throughput from the gas chromatograph that 1 4 would interfere with the mass spectrometer, 1 5 so the mass spectrometer was installed with, 1 6 I believe, a German serviceman, and the 1 7 system, as I best recall, was in the 1 8 laboratory facility and turned on, and 1 9 operational from that standpoint, not from 2 0 the standpoint of having methodology samples 2 1 coming in, being ready to run them, so forth, 2 2 late 1967; and Scott Tucker was, at this 2 3 point, starting to get quite involved with 2 4 all that. 2 5 Q. Okay, and I gather from your
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i testimony that at a point in time, the gas
2 chromatograph was able to be interconnected
3 with the mass spectrometer?
4 A. Yes, it did become operational and
5 to the point that we could proceed, then,
6 with full effort on developing methods as
7
they were best needed,pr i ority-wise,
to
8 obtain proper samples for analyses.
.9 Concurrent with this it was necessary for the
1 0 mass spectroscopist not only to learn how to
1 1 use this system but to interpret results out
1 2 of it, which was extremely complicated.
1 3 Also concurrent with going into
1 4 '68 was trying to tie to this a computer
1 5 system, which really was the key to making
16
the whole thing work.
To this point, there
1 7 was no such system available in the United
1 8 S t a t e s The firs t one that I reca 11 i n the 1 9 Uni ted s tates was from Burke & Elm e r , and
2 0 a g a i n a s I best r e c a 1 1 , it would h a v e been
2 1 about t h e time we were starting up our
2 2 system.
2 3 Q. Burke & Elmer manufactured the
2 4 computer?
2 5 A. The mass spectrometer gas
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1 chromatograph part of it, not the computer
2 part,
3 Q. Just to be clear, Burke & Elmer
4 manufactured equipment that you purchased or
5 you were aware that Burke & Elmer
6 manufactured other equipment?
7 A. No, they manufactured this system
8 that we're talking about, the GC, the mass,
9
for application to PCB-type analyses.
It was i
1 0 the first U.S. company that would, was
1 1 providing a system that could be bought,
;
1 2 brought into your facility and used for that
1 3 purpose,
1 !
1 4 Q Did y o u acquire a Burk e & Elmer
1 5 unit?
1 6 A . No .
1 7 Q Do you know approximat e 1 y when 1 8 Burke & Elmer beg an sale of such units?
1 9 A . Well, this would be, I would say
2 0 my be s t recollect ion is late '68, perhaps .
2 1 Q Doctor , was there any discussion 2 2 that you r emember having had about the
2 3 relationship of PCB's as found in the Jensen
2 4 and Widmark work to DDT?
2 5 A. Yes. There was a discussion, yes.
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1
2
3
4"
5 li
6 i;
jl
Jl 7:
jl 8j
i 9I 10 !
11 |
12
13 I Ii
14 i
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16
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18
19 |
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Q. And what is your understanding, if you have one, about the relationship of DDT to PCB's in the Jensen and Widmark work?
A. You are talking pesticides, that type of materials?
Q . Ye s , I am . A. Well, Widmark, as I recall, was involved in looking at pesticides by chromatography, and being -- and was aware of not being able to explain everything they saw
by that technique, and out of the application of their system, GC/mass, they were able to come up with what was reported then, so this was, this was discussed on a limited basis. That's about all I recall.
Q. Just to understand your answer further, is it your understanding that Widmark and Jensen were looking for pesticides and also found PCB's?
A. That's my understanding. That's the way I remember it.
Q. Do you recall having any reaction to the apparent pairing of DDT's and PCB's reported in the Widmark and Jensen work?
A. Can you elaborate on apparent
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1 pairing?
2 Q. Well, I'm just trying -- I don't
3
want to tell you what was in the study.
I'm
4 attempting to work with your recollection,
5 and I understood your answer of a moment ago
6 to say that Widmark was looking for
7 pesticides and found PCB's; correct?
8 MR. ZIMMER: In addition to
9 pesticides?
1 0 MR. TALLON: Yes.
1 1 A. I recommended, as opposed to
1 2 Widmark being out there suddenly searching
1 3 for PCB's. For some reason, he was involved
1 4 with, as I recall, with pesticides, and they
1 5 had this problem of not being able to explain
1 6 miscellaneous peaks popping up on them, so
1 7 they applied the equipment we talked about.
1 8 BY MR. TALLON:
1 9 Q. Yes, and is it your understanding
2 0 that the peaks are identified through
2 1 analysis as being evidence of PCB's?
2 2 MR. ZIMMER: Which peaks?
2 3 MR. TALLON: The peaks that Dr.
2 4 Keller just referred to.
2 5 MR. ZIMMER: The ones that were
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1 not identified as pesticides?
2 MR . TALLON: Right .
3 A. If you are asking did Widmark
4 identify PCB's in the presence of
5 pesticides --
6 BY MR. TALLON:
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. My answer is yes.
9 Q. That was my question , yes.
1 0 Was there a discussi on that you
1 1 recall among Monsanto personnel about the
1 2 explanation, if there was one, for finding
1 3 PCB's in the presence of pesticides as
14
reported by Widmark and Jensen?
.
1 5 A. There was no clear explanation of
1 6 s o u r c e of the PCB's being found There was
1 7 c o n c e rn on the part of Widmark o n the
1 8 s p e c i fic chlorinated levels of PCB ' s found.
1 9 W i d m a rk did comment that possibly the PCB's
2 0 were coming from tainted ships o r something
2 1 from the ^arbors.
2 2 Q. Do you recall any concern being
2 3 expressed by anyone at Monsanto with whom you
2 4 spoke or communicated about the fact that
2 5 PCB's were found together or in the presence
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1 of pesticides? 2 A . By Widmark? 3 4 A . Now, can we play that qu e s t i o n 5 back? You can play it back. 6 MR . ZIMMER: Just have i t read 7 back. 8 MR . TALLON: Yes, let' s d o that. 9 THE COURT REPORTER: 1 0 "Q Do you recall any c o n c e r n 1 1 being expressed by anyone at Mons a n t o with 1 2 whom you spoke or communicated ab o u t the fact 1 3 that PCB '1 s were found together or i n the 1 4 presence of pesticides?" 1 5 A. Yes, there was considerabl e 1 6 concern at Monsanto about the finding o f 1 7 PCB's, less concern about the pesticide but 1 8 great concern about the P C B ' s . 1 9 BY MR . TALLON: 2 0 Q. And as best you c a n recollect 2 1 today, can you describe the b a sis for such 2 2 concern or concerns? 2 3 MR. ZIMMER: Call s for speculation 2 4 as to the basis of that for such concern on 2 5 anyone 's behalf but his own.
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1 BY MR. TALLON: 2 Q. As expressed to you. 3 A . Well, the basis of concern is that 4 Monsanto wa s always c oncerned if they had a 5 product that was ge 11 in g into the environment 6 or released r which f o r some re ason, others 7 would show could b e a problem, or Monsanto 8 would show could b e a problem, and this was a 9 product that Monsanto had had for many years 1 0 and had no problems with it, had done 1 1 everything that was diligent to assure proper 1 2 opera t i o n s a t that point in time, and they 1 3 w a n t e d to get this thing resolved. 1 4 BY MR. TALLON: 1 5 Q. Was there any concern expressed to 1 6 you at the time related to the specific 17 characteristics of PCB's, such as their 1 8 virtual indestructibility? 1 9 A. Well, of course, that's a 2 0 characteristic of the product. 2 1 Q. Right. 2 2 A. One of the reasons for its use, 2 3 that it's a rather stable-type material. 2 4 Q. Understood. Were there any 2 5 concerns among those expressed to you in the
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1 time period that we are discussing that 2 related to that particular characteristic of 3 the product? 4 MR . ZIMMER : Its stability? 5 MR . TALLON: That's the one that 6 he just mentioned, 7 MR. ZIMMER: I want to make sure 8 we're not referring back to virtual 9 indestructibility, which I think assumes 1 0 facts not in evidence, but as long as it's 1 1 stability, that's fine. 1 2 A . You say concern, I have noth i n g 1 3 can recollect here that w o u 1 d focus on t h i 1 4 BY MR . TALLON: 1 5 Q. Doctor, before you took a trip to 1 6 Europe, are you aware of whether or not other 1 7 representatives of Monsanto visited with 1 8 Widmark or with Jensen to discuss the results 1 9 of their published works? 2 0 A. I'm not aware of a Monsanto visit. 2 1 Widmark did visit Monsanto. 2 2 Q. After the publication of his work? 2 3 A. Yes, after. It's possible our 2 4 European offices, someone could have visited 2 5 there and I just simply don't remember that
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if that happen e d . 2 Q . D o you remember if Elmer Wheeler 3 ever t r a v e 1 e d to Europe for th e purpose of 4 meeti ng with W idmark or Jensen 7 5 A . Not to my knowledge prior to our 6 trip i n 1 9 6 9. 7 Q . D o you recollect wh ether Dr. 8 R i c h a r d travel ed to Europe for the purpose of 9 meeti ng either Widmark or Rich ard before your 1 0 trip i n 1 9 6 9 ? 1 1 A . No . 1 2 MR . ZIMMER: Do you mean Widmark 1 3 or J e n s e n ? 1 4 Q . Wh a t did I say? 1 5 MR . ZIMMER: Richard. 1 6 MR . TALLON: That's what I meant. 1 7 BY MR TALLON: 1 8 Q . Who accompanied you on the trip in 19 1969? 2 0 A. Mr. Wheeler, of the Medical 2 1 Department, myself, and on several parts of 22 the trip, Mr . Hardy out of the Monsanto 2 3 London office, and a visit to Widm a r k, Bill 2 4 Richard, manager of the Product Group, I 2 5 believe, was on that leg of the trip.
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1 Q. Did Mr. Papageorge attend any 2 portion of that trip? 3 A . No, not that I recall. 4 Q . Doctor, do you recollect 5 having had any discussions with Emmett Kelly 6 with respect to contacting the Swedish 7 researchers following the publication of 8 their work? 9 A. That was Swedish -- . 1 0 Q. Widmark and Jensen. 1 1 A. I don't recall, specifically, any 1 2 discussion with Dr. Kelly. 1 3 Q. Just to be clear, does your answer 1 4 that you don't remember specifically suggest 1 5 that you have a general recollection? 1 6 A. I don't recall anything. 1 7 MR. TALLON: Let me show you a 1 8 document that bears production numbers BIR 19 007699 . 2 0 I'll ask the reporter to mark that 2 1 as the next one in order. It also has 2 2 another notation on it, but we won't read 2 3 that one into the record. 2 4 (Plaintiff's Deposition 2 5 Exhibit 282 marked for
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1 identification.)
2 (Witness peruses said
3 document.)
4 BY MR. TALLON:
5 Q Doctor, for the record , that 6 appear s to be a memorandum from Dr. Kelly to
7 Mr . Wi 1 d e dated February 21 , 1967, which
8 appear s to have been copied to you. Do you
9 recoil e c t having seen that memorandum before
1 0 today?
1 1 A. I don't recall this memo r a n d u m .
1 2 Q. Does reading the paragra ph
1 3 number ed 3 refresh your recollectio n in any
1 4 r e s p e c t as to whether you communica ted with
1 5 Dr. Re lly on the subject of contact with the
1 6 Swedis h people or with Jensen and W i d m a r k ?
I
17
A. I don't recall any discu s s i o n of
ii
1 8 that type.
1 9 Q . Did there come a time, D o c t o r , 2 0 the equipment that you had pur chased
2 1 mass spectrometer and the gas
2 2 chromatograph and the computer, were
2 3 sufficiently integrated and running that they
24 were used to perform tests"?
2 5 A. Do you want to play that question
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back?
2 THE COURT RE PORTER :
3 "Q. Did there come a time,
4 Doctor, when the equipment that you had
5 .<
6
purchased, the mass spectrometer and the gas chromatograph and the computer, were
7 fi
8
sufficiently integrated and running that they were used to perform tests?
9 1h' ji
1 0 i'
A . Yes. BY MR . TAL LON :
1 1 1; i'
12
Q And approximately when, t o the best of your recollection, did that t i m e
13
14
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ii
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17 ii
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arrive? A . Throughout 1968. Q Can you describe for me i n gen e r a 1
terms what tests were conducted usi ng the new equipment, as those tests related t o PCB ' s ?
A . They were -- the test wa s used t o
1 9 to look at a variety of material se 1 e c t e d by
2 0 the business unit in conjunction wi th the
2 1 Medical Department, and ranged from c e r t a i n
2 2 environmental materials, which I have no
2 3 recollection what they were at this time, all
2 4 the way to support of toxicity studies out of
2 5 the Medical Department or through the Medical
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Department,involving tissue analyses, so
forth.
Also included would be certain
environmental types of materials, perhaps
water samples from streams, lakes, so forth.
Q. To the best of your knowledge,
were written records prepared of the results
of the tests performing or used -- performed
with the use of that new equipment?
A. Yes.
Q. And to the best of your knowledge,
did you see such written reports?
A. Part ofthem.
Q. What part did you see?
A. Part that would be formalized as a
report out of Applied Sciences, part of a
group report with my name on it as a copyee.
I would not see thestandard
group reports
going back to the clients on certain parts of
the project.
Q. As I am unfamiliar with these
reports, Doctor, could you explain to me what
information would be included in the section
of the reports that you believe you did not
see?
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-1 A . It was standard practice of the 2 Analytical Group and the other groups, too, 3 to receive client work projects on a standard 4 form: What the material was, a reason for 5 the request, what the problem was,what 6 information was needed, and the result then 7 would be put on the back of this same copy, 8 with appropriate copies made, and retained, 9 and sent back to the client. These, in turn, 1 0 could become a basis for more formal 11 reporting later, and I did not see those 1 2 group reports going out, because it was such 1 3 that the group leader could handle, he or she 1 4 was responsible for the professional work 1 5 being done, and back to the client. 1 6 Q. Were the results of the tests 1 7 being conducted with the new equipment 1 8 reported to you orally at any point? 1 9 A. That was a standard practice 2 0 continuously. 2 1 Q. Was it fair to say, therefore, 2 2 that you were being kept abreast of the 2 3 results of the testing going on using the new 2 4 equipment? 2 5 A. Yes, to varying degrees, depending
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1 on which part of it was being worked on, and
2 so forth. It varied greatly.
3 Q. Was Mr. Tucker the gentleman
4 responsible for conducting the tests?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did he have anyone working for
7 him?
8 A. Yes, he did.
9 Q. Can you identify those gentlemen,
1 0 or gentlemen/ladies?
1 1 A. There was a William Mees, M-e-e-s,
1 2 a Chester Brackbill, and without an
1 3 organization chart, I can't help you.
1 4 Q . Is Mr. Tucker still working for
1 5 Monsanto today --
1 6 A . No .
1 7 Q -- as far as you know? 1 8 A . No .
1 9 Q I s he retired? 2 0 A . No . He left Monsanto.
2 1 Q And do you know where he is today 2 2 A . I understand he' s in North
2 3 n a , but I don't know exactly where.
2 4 Q. North Carolina?
25
A.
Mm-hmm.
(Nods head in affirmative
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-anner ) .
2 MR. ZIMMER: I believe his
3 deposition is scheduled for later this month.
4 BY MR. TALLON:
5 Q. Mr. Mees, do you know where he is
6 today?
7 A . H e is retired.
8 Q . Do you know where he is t o d a Y? 9 A . H e ' s in the St. Louis area.
1 0 That ' s all I c an say.
1 1 . Q . And do you know where M r . 1 2 B r a c k b i 11 is t o d a y ?
1 3 A . H e is retired and in the St. Louis
1 4 area.
,
I
15
Q. Were you ever asked to draw any
j
I
i
1 6 overall conclusions from the results of
1 7 individual tests being conducted by Mr. 1 8 Tuckerandhisgroup?
i !
1 9 A. I can't recall any specific
2 0 situation where that happened.
2 1 Q. Were there different aroclors used
2 2 or searched for in Mr. Tucker's tests, so far
2 3 as you know?
2 4 A. Yes.
2 5 Q. Do you know what aroclors were
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1 used or searched for in Mr. Tucker's tests in 2 1968? 3 A. It would have involved the 1200 4 series . 5 Q. Would that have included, to the 6 best of your knowledge, Aroclor 1242? 7 A . Yes. 8 Q . And Doctor , t o b e sure that we' re 9 using the same terms with the same meanings, 1 0 could you define what you mean when you refer 1 1 to Aroclor 1242 ? 1 2 A . It's -- it denotes two phenyl 1 3 rings, the 12, and 42 percent chlorine on the 1 4 rings. 1 5 Q. 42 percent in absolute terms or on 1 6 average? 1 7 MR. ZIMMER: What do you mean by 1 8 absolute terms, Counsel? 1 9 BY MR TALLON: 2 0 Q. I mean, is it 42 percent period or 2 1 is it 42 percent on average by weight? 2 2 A. You'll have to ask the Business 2 3 Group on that. I'm not sure. 2 4 BY MR. TALLON: 2 5 Q. Okay. Do you know whether Aroclor
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1 1242 contains any more highly chlorinated
2
aroclors, or only aroclors in 42 percent
.
3 weight?
4 A. Well, Aroclor 1242 is composed
5 primarily of four chlorine-type isomers and
6 lower, and not the higher-ch1orinated
7 isomers.
8 Q. Are there any more highly
9 chlorinated isomers in the Aroclor 1242, to
1 0 your knowledge?
1 1 A. To my knowledge, Aroclor 1242 is
1 2 essentially free of that, of higher
1 3 chlorinated species, 5 and 6 chlorinated
1 4 species.
1 5 Q. Just to be sure, did you say
1 6 essentially free of or free of?
1 7 A. I'm not aware of 5 and 6 in
1 8 Aroclor 1242.
1 9 Q. Doctor, did you ever do any work
2 0 while you were employed by Monsanto to try to
2 1 refine detection methods for the presence of
2 2 PCB ' s ?
2 3 A. Can you expand a little bit on
2 4 detection methods? I'm not trying to be
2 5 evasive, but --
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Q. Well, let me back up, perhaps, for 2 a more vocal question. Let's say by 1966, 3 how would you look for -- what methods would 4 you use to determine the presence of PCB's in 5 a given substance? 6 A. We would have -- I can't recall 7 that we did that, ever, to specifically 8 identify PCB's as such. We had techniques, 9 gas chromatography, and with known systems, 1 0 where if you have a product and you know 1 1 exactly what's in that product, you can then 1 2 use gas chromatography to advantage and be 1 3 safe. Once it gets in the environment, then 1 4 that's a different story, so we had that 1 5 capability of gas chromatography and that 1 6 would have been the technique of choice. 1 7 MR. TALLON: Let me show you a 1 8 document that we'll mark as the next exhibit 1 9 in order, and it's a one-page memorandum 2 0 dated February 15th, 1968, bearing production 2 1 number TRAN 008410, and we'll ask the court 2 2 reporter to mark that. 2 3 (Plaintiff's Deposition 2 4 Exhibit 283 marked for 2 5 identification.)
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1 (Witness peruses said 2 document.) 3 BY MR. TALLON: 4 Q. Doctor, do you recollect ever 5 having seen that memorandum before today? 6 A. I don't recall this. 7 Q Do you r e c a 1 1 ever having been 8 asked by a Mr . Donald E . Rousch whether 9 contaminati o n of c o o ki ng oils with Aroclor 1 0 1242 could b e detected a t the level of a 1 1 hundr ed par t s per mill ion ? 1 2 A . I don't rec all that 1 3 MR . TALLON: L e t me show you 1 4 another doc ument which i s a on e-page memo 1 5 dated March 2 6 , 1968, and bear ing production 1 6 number TRAN 057807, and I'll ask the court 1 7 reporter to mark that. 1 8 (Plaintiff's Deposition 1 9 Exhibit 284 marked for 2 0 identification.) 2 1 BY MR. TALLON: 2 2 Q. Take a moment and review that, 2 3 please. 2 4 (Witness peruses said 2 5 document.)
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1 BY MR. TALLON: 2 Q. Doctor, does reading th a t 3 memorandum dated March 26, 1968, r efresh your 4 recollection in any respect about any work 5 that you. or your group did with re s p e c t to 6 detection of PCB '1 s in c o o k i n g oil? 7 A . D o e s n '' t help a bit,, but I don't 8 recall . 9 MR. ZIMMER: Can we go off the 1 0 record for a second? 1 1 MR . TALLON : Yeah. 1 2 (Discussion off the record.) 1 3 MR. ZIMMER: Back on. 1 4 BY MR . TALLON : 1 5 Q. Doctor, when did -- when was the 1 6 first time that it wa s suggested to you that
l 1 7 you s h o u 1 d travel to Europe with the other ' 1 8 g e n 11 e m e n whose names you mentioned in 1 9 19 6 9 -- to travel in 1 9 6 9 ? 2 0 A . Well, my b est recollection would 2 1 be it would be late 1968 or very early 1969. 2 2 Q. And to the best of your 2 3 recollection, from what source did you learn 2 4 that such a trip could take place? 2 5 A. Through the Medical Department and
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1 the Business Group, Functional Fluids.
2 Q Do you recall that particular
3 person or persons communicating with you
4 about the possibility of such a trip?
5 A . Yes.
6 Q . Who?
7 A. Elmer Wheeler.
8
Q. And doyou recollect Mr. Wheeler
'
9 communicating with you orally, or in writing, j
1 0 or both?
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i
11 A. Certainly, orally. I don't recall |
1 2 anything ln writing.
II i
1 3 Q. Do you recollectanyone otherthan I
1 4 Mr. Wheeler having communicated with you in
1 5 late '68 or early '69 about the possibility
1 6 of such a trip?
1 7 A . Yes.
1 8 Q Who?
1 9 A . That would have been Dr . Richard.
2 0 Q Do you recollect anyone other than
2 1 i c h ard having communicated w i t h you
2 2 about such a trip in the time period to which
2 3 you have referred?
2 4 A . No .
2 5 Q. And what, if any, communications
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1 do you recollect today having received from 2 Dr. Richard on the subject of the trip in 3 late '68 or early '69? 4 A. The message from Mr. Wheeler and 5 Mr. Richard was that it seemed appropriate to 6 obtain information firsthand from Widmark. 7 Also, it was at that point my input that it 8 would help also for us to do this to compare 9 our progress on methodology with Widmark and 1 0 their operations on a one-to-one basis. 1 1 Q. Is it your recollection that Dr. 1 2 Richard and Mr. Wheeler contacted you 1 3 together in order to discuss this trip? 1 4 A. Idon't remember that. 1 5 Q. Do you recollect specific 1 6 statements made to you about the trip in late 1 7 '68 or early '69 by Dr. Richard, as opposed 1 8 to Mr. Wheeler? 1 9 A. I have no recollection of that, 2 0 either. 2 1 Q. Do you recollect specific 2 2 statements made to you by Mr. Wheeler on the 2 3 subject of the trip in either late '68 or 2 4 early '69? 2 5 A . No .
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1 Q You said that your input was 2 it would be helpful to compare methodology
3 face-to- face?
4 A . Correct.
5 Q And in what respect did you
6 believe then that such a face-to-face meeting
7 to compare methodology would be helpful?
8 A. Because it was at the stage where
9 we were just becoming reasonably competent on
1 0 applying the techniques, the method,
1 1 development of skills and instrumentation
1 2 techniques, and we felt that Widmark and
1 3 Jensen could contribute significantly and,
1 4 perhaps, move us along even faster in our
1 5 efforts to get on top of this, and this was
16
consistent with Widmark, also.
He was a very
17
willing
he had worked through communiques
1 8 with, as indicated earlier, with our European
1 9 offices, and he was very willing to do this
2 0 with us.
2 1 Q. Had you communicated in any
2 2 fashion with Widmark before actually making
2 3 the trip?
2 4 A. I did not.
2 5 Q. Who did?
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1 A . Elmer Wheeler. 2 Q Do you know what subject or 3 subjects Mr . Wheeler and Widmark discusse d ? 4 A . My best recollection is it was a 5 broad-brush approach of the PCB situation f o r 6 discussion . 7 Q. Can you be any more specific than 8 that? 9 A. Well, it would be directed toward 1 0 their findings of PCB's, their techniques and 1 1 methodology and equipment, and future plans. 1 2 Q Do you have a recollection of e 1 3 having discuss e d with Mr. Wheeler the 1 4 communications h e had with Widmark with 1 5 respect to fut u r e plans? 1 6 A . Id o n ' t recall that. 1 7 Q . Do you recall ever ever hearing 1 8 from Mr. Wheel e r or from any other source 1 9 more about the content of Mr. Wheeler's 2 0 communications with either Jensen or Widmark 2 1 than that which you have just told me? 2 2 A . No . 2 3 Q. Did you ever see any memoranda in 2 4 which Mr. Wheeler reported on his 2 5 communications with Widmark and/or Jensen?
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1 A. I have no recollection of any.
2 Q. In planning for the trip that took
3 place in 1969, was there any discussion with
4 respect to the subject of why the trip had
5 not taken place earlier than 1969?
6 A . I don 't recall any such
7 discussion. M y - - what I think I recall is
8 that we had our hands full trying to get
9 ourselves up t o full speed with equipment and
1 0 resources of all kinds, undergoing
1 1 organizational changes superimposed on top of
1 2 that, and we were looking for an appropriate
1 3 time to do it.
1 4 Q. For an appropriate time to do it?
15
A.An appropriate
time to make the
1 6 visit, and it's my best recollection it was a
1 7 general consensus that it was better for us,
1 8 we would get, make more progress going over
19
there with some experience behind
us and
2 0 talking than to go over cold.
2 1 Q. Was it ever your desire to involve
2 2 Jensen and Widmark in the process of setting
2 3 up your new equipment?
2 4 A . No .
2 5 Q. Was it ever suggested or
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1 recommended to you by Mr. Tucker or anyone
2 else that Widmark o r Jensen could be of
3 assistance i n s e t t i ng up the new equipment?
4 A . Not that I recall.
5 Q Was it e v e r suggested to you or
6 recommended to you by Mr. Tucker or anyone
7 else that Widmark or Jensen might be helpful
8 in the initial use of the equipment that had
9 been purchased in '67?
1 0 A. Not that I recall.
1 1 Q. In 1968, to the best of your
1 2 recollection, did you have any communications
1 3 with representatives of Industrial Bio-Test
1 4 for the purpose of having them run tests with
15 1 6 jl
1 17 i 18 i
respect to PCB's? A . Yes. Q And -- A . With the qual ification , you said
1 9 j: 196 8 , and I'm not clear in my mind what year,
20 !
but there was discussion in that general
2 1 period .
2 2 Q. The general period would be what
2 3 period, Dr. Keller?
2 4 A. Well, the late Sixties is the best
2 5 I could do on that one.
1 |
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1 Q All right, and who was the person 2 or who were the persons with whom you
3 communicated at Industrial Bio-Test?
4 A. You mean on a one-to-one direct,
5 or through communications with two groups
6 meeting or whatever?
7 Q. Well, why don't you tell me
8 whether you had any one-to-one direct
9 communications with representatives of
1 0 Industrial Bio-Test. Did you?
11
A.
I don't recall any.
My answer is
1 2 no, and I don't recall any.
1 3 Q. Do you recollect having been a
1 4 participant in group communications such as a
1 5 meeting?
1 6 A . Yes.
1 7 Q. And whom do you recall being the
1 8 participants in those group communications?
1 9 A. Participants were Dr. Calandra,
2 0 and Dr. Fancher, and I can't come up with any
2 1 other names.
2 2 Q. Are Drs. Calandra and Fancher
2 3 representatives of Industrial Bio-Test?
2 4 A. Yes.
2 5 Q. And whom do you recall were the
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
participants in such communications from
Monsanto' s perspective?
A . That would be Dr. Kelly, Mr .
Wheeler, D r . Richard .
Q And yourself? A . And myself. Those are the
principal s I remember.
Q Are you suggesting by your answer that ther e were others or may have been
others involved?
A . I can't recall any others .
Q . Are you referring to meetings in the past -- in the few answers that you have
given, with respect to the communications you
participated in with Industrial Bio-Test?
A. That I participated in?
Q . Yes .
A. Correct. Also, I should add to
the previous question and answer, of course,
Scott Tucker would be involved in those
discussions .
Q. Your answers respecting your
communications with Industrial Bio-Test, were
they to meetings?
Is that correct?
A. Correct.
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1 Q. Are you referring to one meeting 2 or more than one meeting? 3 A. I can't focus on one meeting for 4 you. I just don't remember. 5 Q And in general, can you describe 6 what you understood the purpose of those 7 meetings to have been? 8 A . These were project p 1 a n n ing-type 9 meetings for toxicity testing, for work to 1 0 carried out by Industrial Bio-Test, and for 1 1 monitoring, as needed, appropriate materials 1 2 from the testing, analytical monitoring by 1 3 our Analytical Group, Applied Sciences. 1 4 Q. Do you have any recollection as 1 5 you sit here today of what projects 1 6 Industrial Bio-Test was asked to take on for 1 7 Monsanto? 1 8 A. No, I can't play back those 1 9 toxicity test programs for you. 2 0 Q. Without regard -- 2 1 A. I know they went from 90-day tests 2 2 to long-term tests. 2 3 Q Without regard t o the specific 2 4 kinds o f tests involved, a r e you able to 2 5 state i n general the kind o f work that was
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i 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
being requested of Industrial Bio-Test?
A. My only comment on that, based on what I can recall is, that it was for them to use their standard toxicity testing to look at materials of concern to us, products of concern, and related materials.
Beyond that, this was the bailiwick of the Medical Department.
Q. And what was your understanding of the reason for your involvement in these communications, given that the essential project was the bailiwick of the Medical Department?
A. It was necessary to be sure that the amount of components being tested added to whatever exposure method they used, whether it was feeding, air, exposure, whatever, would be at the appropriate level that the analytical techniques could be used, method-wise, and that sacrificed animals and tissues would be appropriately handled with the appropriate methodology, so we had to be assured we had the right methods in place before they took off with the study. Usually, we had no problem with that
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coordination.
2 Q Did there come a time when you did
3 have a problem with that?
4 A . Not that I remember.
5
MR . TALLON: All right, we can
'
6 certainly take our 1uncheon break.
7 (Lunche on recess from 12:30
8 to 1:15.)
9 BY MR. TALLON:
j
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10
Q . Dr . Keller , I just have a couple
!
11 of points I wanted to touch back on before we |
12
continued.
In our discussion earlier today
1
1 3 when you were referring to some ofthe work
14 that you did, you referred to work of your
,
1 5 department for clients?
j
I
1 6 A. Mm-hmm. (Nods head in affirmative
17 manner).
18
Q.
Are you using the term "clients"
j
19 to describe other business units within
2 0 Monsanto, or outside customers of Monsanto
21 produc ts, or both?
2 2 A. Inside Monsanto only. We had no
2 3 outside clients.
i
24 Q. In other words , your group didn't
2 5 do work for cus tomer s of Monsanto?
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1 A. Our group did work for Monsanto 2 groups' customers but not outside Monsanto. 3 Does that answer your question? 4 Q. I think so. My understanding -- 5 well, I don ' t know; we don't want m y 6 understandi ng . I s it correct that the work 7 your group did was for other busin ess units 8 in Monsanto? 9 A . Yes. 1 0 Q. And you did no work for 1 1 third-party customers who were purchasers of 1 2 product from Monsanto, such as General 1 3 Electric? 1 4 A . M y answer is yes. with this 1 5 qualificati o n : We m ig h t do work, as all 1 6 companies d o , for a cus tomer which would 1 7 back through our, our other groups, sales or 1 8 whatever, as an accommodation. That's 1 9 standard business practice, but we didn't do 2 0 it for hire or anything like that. 2 1 Q. And could you describe just 2 2 briefly what kind of work you recollect 2 3 having done for customers as an 2 4 accommodation? 2 5 A. I can't recall any because that
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1 was so seldom.
2 Q. Earlier, we had been discussing
3 the mass spectrometer, gas chromatographer --
4 no, not gas chromatographer, gas
5 chromatograph and the computer system. I s
6 there a name that you used to describe that
7 unit or those three integrated units?
8 A. Well, unfortunely, no. Probably
9 the best thing is just GC/mass system.
1 0 Q I s that term, G C / m a s s s y s tern, a 1 1 that was used at the time to t a lk about
1 2 these three interrelated units?
1 3 A. Ye s . 1 4 Q. And if I use that, you'll 1 5 understand that I mean to refer to the 1 6 computer, the spectrometer, and the gas
!I
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j
]
I
1 7 chromatograph? I
1 8 A. Yes, especially if we don't want -- |
1 9 if we know what time frame we're talking
2 0 about .
2 1 Q. After the installation of the
22 GC/mass system in 1968, was the system used
2 3 for testing for materials other than PCB's?
2 4 A . Yes.
2 5 Q. What other materials?
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1 A . I can't give a listing of exact
2 types of materials , but it would have been
3 produc ts of interest to the Organic Chemicals
4 Division.
5 Q - In 1968, i f you are able t o 6 what per centage of the tests run on the
7 G C / m a s s system were P CB -related tests?
8 A. My best estimate is 50 percent.
9 Q. And to recap on something you said
1 0 earlier, was it a reason for purchasing the
1 1 GC/mass system to attempt to duplicate the
1 2 results evidenced by the Widmark and Jensen
1 3 study?
14
A. Notto duplicate, but
to establish
1 5 in our own house, with our own skills, our
i
1 6 own -- get our own data and information so we i
1 7 could be absolutely sure of the results.
!
1 8 Q. Producing your own results as a
1 9 consequence of that study was a reason for
2 0 purchasing the GC/mass system?
2 1 A. That, and applying it to other
2 2 problems that we presumed we might have to
2 3 become involved with.
2 4 Q. What other problemswere you
2 5 presuming you might have to become involved
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1 with? 2 A. Toxicity studies and analyses 3 .related to that, for example. 4 Q. And is the "that" used in your 5 sentence, answer just now, PCB's? 6 A. (Nods head in affirmative manner) 7 Q. You need to answer orally. 8 A . Yes . 9 Q. In preparation for your trip to 1 0 Europe, did you personally intend to discuss 1 1 with Widmark and Jensen any of the test 1 2 results that had emanated from your use of 1 3 the GC/mass system? 1 4 A. We didn't go with the concept of 1 5 showing results necessarily. It was to be 1 6 the other d i r e c t i on that they w e r e going t o 1 7 tell us a n d show us about the i r , what they 1 8 had done a n d t h e i r skills , s o i t wasn't 1 9 really a P a r t of our mission for them to draw 2 0 judgments or provide inputs on in-house 2 1 findings. 2 2 Q. Nevertheless, did you go prepared 2 3 to discuss particular findings or particular 2 4 problems with them? 2 5 A. Not that I recall.
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1 Q On the European trip where you met 2 with Drs. or Professors Widmark and Jensen, 3 did you meet with others, as well? 4 A . Yes 5 Q . Was the visit with Widmark and 6 Jens e n one leg of a multi-leg trip, if you 7 will? 8 A . Yes. 9 Q. At the time of the publication of 1 0 the Widmark and Jensen work, were there any 1 1 other published studies of which you had 1 2 knowledge relating to PCB's being found in 1 3 the environment? 1 4 A . You s aid p u b 1 i s hed studies? 1 5 Q . Yes. 1 6 A . None t h a t I was aware of. 1 7 Q Were the re any other studies, 1 8 p u b 1 i s h e d or not , o f which you were aware, i n 1 9 e x i s t e n c e at or a b o u t the time of the 2 0 publication of the Jensen-Widmark work? 2 1 A . No. 2 2 Q. Was there any in-house analyses by 2 3 Monsanto personnel in 1966 or earlier which 2 4 related to the presence of PCB's in the 2 5 environment?
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
A . Not to my knowledge.
Q. Were there other, any other -- did you have any basis for having concern about the presence of PCB's in the environment in 1966 other than the Jensen and Widmark study?
A . No . Q. I asked you a moment ago if the European trip involved visits to others than Jensen and Widmark, and you indicated that it did.
As best as you can recall, what was the overall objective, if any, to be accomplished by the European trip that we have been discussing in 1969?
A. It was an information-gathering to determine what we could about whatwas known on the part of others working in some way with this problem.
Q. Who selected the entities or persons who would be visited by you in your group in order to get information?
A. The Medical Department. Q. Who within the Medical Department had that responsibility, if it's one person, or whom were they?
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A . Elmer Wheeler. 2 Q . In preparation for that trip, did 3 you suggest to Mr. Wheeler the names of any 4 entities or individuals who should be on the 5 itinerary? 6 A. Well, the obvious one was Widmark 7 and Jensen -- 8 MR . ZIMMER: His question was, did 9 you sugge st any names to Mr. Wheeler. 1 0 A . And my a n s w er is yes, Widmark and 1 1 Jensen. 1 2 MR . ZIMMER: I just wanted to make 1 3 sure that was o n e you suggested, not that 1 4 they were just an o b vi o u s -- 1 5 BY MR. TALLON: 1 6 Q Any others that you recall today? 1 7 A . Not that I recall. 1 8 Q. I believe you testified earlier. 1 9 Dr. Keller, that Professor Widmark had 2 0 visited Monsanto; is that correct? 2 1 A. Correct. 2 2 Q. Do you know when Professor 2 3 Widmark's visit to Monsanto took place? 2 4 A. My best recollection is that would 2 5 have been very early '69, and I don't recall
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1 beyond that, I guess. 2 Q. Was that Professor Widmark's first 3 in-person visit to Monsanto, so far as you 4 know? 5 MR. ZIMMER: Calls for 6 speculation. 7 A. It's the only one I'm aware of at 8 this point in time. 9 BY MR. TALLON: 1 0 Q. Just for the sake of clarity, is 1 1 that the only trip by Professor Widmark to 1 2 Monsanto for all eternity, for all time? 1 3 A. Yes. 1 4 Q. And during that visit, did you 1 5 meet with Professor Widmark? 1 6 A . I met with Prof essor Widmark 1 7 brie and I ' m not sure if it was that 1 8 v i s i t or another visit, if he made another 1 9 visit. I just don't know. 2 0 Q. Do you recollect anything about 2 1 your brief with Professor Widmark on his 2 2 early 1969 visit to Monsanto? 2 3 A. It simply involved a ten- or 2 4 fifteen-minute quick discussion about PCB 2 5 methodology, and exchanges we best had time
l--1
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1 for; an extremely brief meeting. 2 Q. Did you meet with Professor 3 Widmark in your office? 4 A . Yes. 5 Q. Were others present on that 6 occasion? 7 A. Not that I recall. 8 Q. Did you introduce Professor 9 Widmark to anyone at the time that he visited 1 0 with you? 1 1 A . Not t h a t I recall. 1 2 Q . Did you show Professor Widmark the 1 3 s s s y stem o n that occasion? 1 4 A . I t ' s my recollection he did get a 1 5 by o f what we had, but that's -- I'm 1 6 a r i n m y mind just what that involved 1 7 Q Do you have an understanding as t o 1 8 e n g t h o f t im e Professor Widmark spent a t 1 9 Monsanto during his trip to St. Louis in 2 0 early '69? 2 1 A. No. I'll -- my mind would 2 2 indicate several days, but I'm not sure of 2 3 that. I don't know. 2 4 Q. Do you have any knowledge or 2 5 information as to the identities of any other
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1 person or persons with whom he met during his 2 visit? 3 A . Well, he -- persons, I cannot. 4 It's in my mind that he met with the Medical 5 Department personnel, and plant, 6 ana 1ytica 1-type personnel at the plant, and 7 that's all, and I can't tell you who would be 8 involved. 9 Q. By "plant," what do you mean to 1 0 refer to? 1 1 A . Well, as I think I remember 1 2 something about that part of it, it would be 1 3 the Queeny Plant in St. Louis 1 4 Q Do you have any present' 1 5 understanding as to why he visited that 1 6 particular plant? 1 7 A . I don't recall anything on that 1 8 I was not involved in that part of i t . 1 9 Q Do you have any knowledg e as to 2 0 whether he met with Mr. Wheeler? 2 1 A. No. As I say, he met w i t h the 2 2 Medical Department, but I c anno t -- I ' 11 just 2 3 simply add, my best recollection i s t h at Mr. 2 4 Wheeler brought Ed by. 2 5 Q. To your office?
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1 A . To my office. Beyond that, I just 2 can't recall. 3 Q. Do you recollect having heard any 4 reports from others of their meetings with 5 Professor Widmark? 6 A . No . 7 Q Do you have any understanding a s 8 to whether M o n s a n to covere d the expenses o f 9 Professor Widmark ' s travel to St. Louis? 1 0 A . I have no idea on that. 1 1 Q Do you have any recollection o f 1 2 whether there was a p a r t i c ular agenda for 1 3 discussions with Professor Widmark other than 1 4 as you have already testified? 1 5 A . No . 1 6 Q. Do you recollect whether there was 1 7 any plan to discuss data concerning PCB's in 1 8 tissues with Professor Widmark? 1 9 A . No . 2 0 MR. TALLON: Let me show you a 2 1 one-page document which appears to be a 2 2 letter dated April 7, 1969, bearing 2 3 production number TRAN 059255. 2 4 (Plaintiff's Deposition 2 5 Exhibit 285 marked for
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A1. identification.) 2 BY MR . TALLON : 3 Q. My sole question for you, here, 4 Dr. Keller, is whether a review of that 5 exhibit enhances your recollection in any 6 respect as to the subject or subjects you 7 intended to discuss with Professor Widmark on 8 your 1969 visit. 9 (Witness peruses said 1 0 document.) 1 1 MR. ZIMMER: We're now talking 1 2 about Dr. Keller's visit to Europe,rather 1 3 than Dr. Widmark's visit to Monsanto? 1 4 MR. TALLON: That's right. 1 5 MR. ZIMMER: Okay. The only 1 6 reason I bring that up is that your prior 1 7 questions about whether there was any 1 8 schedule relating to Dr. Widmark's visit to 1 9 discuss animal tissues, and the like, were 2 0 related to Dr. Widmark's visit and not Dr. 2 1 Keller's visit. 2 2 MR. TALLON: I intended that last 2 3 question to refer to Dr. Keller's visit. 2 4 MR. ZIMMER: Okay. Just so we 2 5 have the right transition.
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1 (Witness peruses said 2 document . ) 3 BY MR. TALLON: 4 Q And the question was whether 5 reviewing that exhibit enhanced your 6 recollec tio n in any respect as to the 7 subjects discus sed with Dr. Widmark on your 8 visit to Europe 9 A . No . 1 0 MR. TALLON: Let me have the court 1 1 reporter mark as the next exhibit a one-page 1 2 memorandum to which is attached an itinerary, 1 3 bearing production numbers TRAN 058769, 1 4 indicates a letter, and 746 through 748, 1 5 indicates the itinerary. 1 6 (Plaintiff's Deposition 1 7 Exhibit 286 marked for 1 8 identification.) 1 9 (Witness peruses said 2 0 document.) 2 1 BY MR TALLON: 2 2 Q. Did you get a chance to look at 2 3 those Dr. Keller? 2 4 A. Now? 2 5 Q. Yes. Did you?
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1
A.
M m-hHi .
(Nods head in affirmative
2 manner).
3 Q. Okay. Had you seen the memorandum
4 from Elmer Wheeler in 1969? Do you recollect
5 having seen it?
6 A. No, I have no recollection of
7 that.
8 Q. What about the itinerary which I
9 have also furnished to you?
1 0 A. I don't recall that.
1 1 Q. Does the -- I understand this is
1 2 somewhat difficult, due to the passage of
1 3 time, but does the itinera ry seem to
1 4 represent to you an accura te depiction of the
1 5 trip that you have been r e ferring to as the
1 6 19 6 9 v i s i t to Europe?
1 7 A . I n the main.
1 8 Q I s it the c a s e , Dr. Keller, that 1 9 the only Monsanto repre sen tatives who went on
2 0 the trip that you've be e n referring to were
2 1 you and Mr. Wheeler, or w a s there a larger
2 2 group, as best you r e c a 1 1 today?
2 3 MR . ZIMMER: Mi scharacterizes his
2 4 testimony.
2 5 MR. TALLON: I ' m not
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1 characterizing, I'm asking him a question
2 MR. ZIMMER: He's already told
3 you, though, who went, and it wasn't just h e
4 and Mr. Wheeler.
5 MR. TALLON: I understand that.
6 THE WITNESS: May he repeat the
7 question?
8
MR . TALLON
I'll ask another
9 question, just so we're clear. 1 0 BY MR . TALLON:
j I :
11
Q. The memorandum which is part of
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12
this exhibit states that, "Perhaps you have
'
1 3 heard that Bob Keller from Organic Research
14
and I plan to visit a number of people," and
;
15
for the sake of clarity of the record, I was
i
i
16
wondering whether that indicated to you that
j
i
1 7 the persons making this particular trip to j
18
you were only Elmer Wheeler and yourself or
!
1
19
whether it was also the other persons whose
.
2 0 names you had mentioned earlier in testimony
2 1 today.
2 2 MR. ZIMMER: Are you asking him to
2 3 interpret the memo, or just to tell you who
2 4 actually went on the visit? That's what's
2 5 unclear by the question.
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1 MR. TALLON: I'm just asking for
2 his recollection who was on the visit.
3 MR. ZIMMER: Okay.
4
A.
Well, I think Itestified
earlier
5 as to who went on different legs of the trip,
6 to my best recollection, and I guess that
7 would not change. I can repeat that, if that
8 will help.
9 Q . No, I remember the names that you
1 0 gave me. I'm just wondering if you are able
1 1 today to break down who was on what leg of
1 2 the trip, based on your last response.
1 3 A. Well, would you like for me to
1 4 repeat as I recall who was on what leg of the
1 5 trip?
1 6 Q . Yes .
1 7 A. Through this?
18
Q.
Thatwould be
very helpful.
1 9 A. Looking at the Aroclor in the
2 0 environment attachment to this memo, the
2 1 scheduled Monday, April 28, trip to Holden
2 2 was with -- by -- correction -- Keller and
23 Hardy out of the London office.
24 The Tuesday, April 29 visit to
2 5 Shell was by Wheeler and Keller.
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A The Wednesday, April 30
2 Wa 1ker-Sentry Company, I have no recollection
3 of that, and I'm not sure that visit was even
4 made by anyone.
5 The Wednesday afternoon or
6 Thursday morning visit with Holmes andTatton
7 was made by Wheeler and Keller. The
8 Wednesday afternoon visit with Sir, with Sir
9 Frederick Warner, I don't r e c a 11 that
1 0 meeting. I'm not sure it was held.
1 1 Friday meeting with Dave Wood and
1 2 John Haggert, I do not r e c all.
1 3 The Monday meeting with Widmark
1 4 and Jensen was made with Widmark but not
15
Jensen by Wheeler and Keller.
And the
I
1 6 meeting with Holmstedt, my best recollection, :
i
17
that was Wheeler and Keller; as was Friday,
i
1 8 May 9, Professor Van Genderen, and the last
1 9 meeting, May 12, with Leverkusen, to my
,
2 0 knowledge, was not made.
,
2 1 Now, I should make one addition to
22
this.
To the meeting with Widmark and
2 3 Jensen, Dr. Richard was along on that one,
2 4 and it's my best recollection that Hardy, out
2 5 of the London office, was also present at the
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1 Shell Research meeting, and I believe that's
2 all.
3 Q. Dr. Keller, do you have a
4 recollection of being told by any person at
5 Monsanto in the late Sixties that the Organic
6 Division had considerable research effort
7 underway to develop data to protect the sales
8 and uses of Monsanto PCB's?
9 A . I have no recollection of that.
1 0 Q. Do you have a recollection of ever
1 1 having heard from Elmer Wheeler that
1 2 beginning in the mid summer of 1968, a
1 3 considerable research effort had been
1 4 underway in the Organic Division and in
1 5 consulting laboratories to develop data to
1 6 protect the sales and uses of Monsanto PCB's?
17
A.
No,I don't
recall that.
1 8 Q. If you look for a moment at
1 9 Exhibit 286, at the first sentence of the
2 0 third paragraph in the memorandum, it states,
2 1 "Beginning in mid summer of last year, a
2 2 considerable research effort has been
2 3 underway in the Organic Division and in
2 4 consulting laboratories to develop data to
2 5 protect the sales and uses of our PCB's." Do
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you see that?
2 A . Yes.
3 Q. Does reviewing that passage in
4 this memorandum or any portion of this
5 memorandum enhance your recollection in any
6
fashion as to whether theOrganic
Division
7 hadundertaken a considerable research effort
8 to develop data to protect the sales and uses
9 of Monsanto PCB's?
1 0 MR. ZIMMER: Lacks foundation,
1 1 assumes facts not in evidence.
1 2 If it changes your recollection,
1 3 you can tell him.
1 4 MR. TALLON: I'm asking him if it
1 5 enhances his recollection in any respect.
1 6 MR. ZIMMER: You read him the same
1 7 question twice and he told you it didn't,
1 8 so -- does it enhance yourrecollection?
1 9 THE WITNESS: No.
2 0 BY MR. TALLON:
2 1 Q. What was the goal of the work that
2 2 you were doing to gather data in 1967 and
2 3 '68, as you best understood it?
2 4 A. To provide as complete a picture
2 5 as possible on the presence, fate,
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1 composition of PCB andPCB-type products in
2 the environment.
3 Q. And what do you refer to when you
4
say that one of thegoals or part
of the goal
5
was to gather data
on the fate of PCB
6 products?
7 A . Yes, the fate.
8 Q Fate 9 A . Yes.
1 0 Q . What do you mean by the use of the
1 1 fate " in that sentence?
1 2 A . This would relate to the stability
1 3 of PCB-type products in the environment,
1 4 under e n vironmental conditions.
1 5 Q Did you have any understanding at
1 6 the t i m e of the use to which the information
1 7 that you were to gather would be put?
1 8 A . No .
1 9 Q. Did you have an understanding then
2 0 as to whether the data and information you
2 1 were gathering would be used for any business
2 2 purpose as it related to PCB products?
2 3 MR. ZIMMER: Calls for
2 4 speculation.
2 5 THE WITNESS: Can we play that
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* back?
2 THE COURT REPORTER:
3 "Q. Did you have an understanding
4 then as to whether the data and information
5 you were gathering would be used for any
6 business purpose as it related to PCB
7 products?
8 A . Well, the broad answer to that
9 yes, b e c a u s e what w e were in busines s for
10
to develop data for support of products and
:
1 1 processes, of commercial products and
j
1 2 processes.
:
1 3 BY MR. TALLON:
1 4 Q. Did you have an understanding then 1
15
as to whether the information and data you
j
1 6 were developing would play any role in a 1 7 business decision with respect to the
j I | j
1 8 continuedsalesofPCB's?
19
MR. ZIMMER: Same objection. I'm
,
i
2 0 sorry, you can answer.
2 1 A. The answer is no.
2 2 BY MR. TALLON:
2 3 Q. What was your understanding --
2 4 A. Let me just add a comment, here.
2 5 Just to reemphasize, our role as a support,
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service function to the business units, in 2 many times we would not be involved, 3 certainly, in decision making of what they 4 were doing. That was their decision. We 5 would get problems in, and in that context, 6 we, many times, really didn't know what they 7 were going to do with the information that we 8 were generating. It might be, could be 9 considerably letter. That's the reason I 1 0 have to answer -- 1 1 Q Did you h a v any under standing at 1 2 all of the use t o w h i c the data and 1 3 inforraatio n your group developed was 1 4 eventually put i n conn ction with the 1 5 continued sale o f P C B roducts? 1 6 A . A t that p o i t in time, n o . 1 7 Q Did you 1 a t r acquire a n 1 8 understanding of the us e to which the data 1 9 and information you dev eloped was put or had 2 0 been put? 2 1 A. Much later. 2 2 Q. How much 1 at er? 2 3 A. Early Sevent i e s . 2 4 Q. And in the e arly Seventies, what 2 5 did you learn about the use to which the
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1 infer nation you had d e v e 1 o p e d had been put?
2 A . Well, I t h i n k it w a s u s e d t o make
3 c e r t a in business d e c i s ions and w h a t t o d o
4 about manufactur e o f p r o d u c t s , c o n t i n u i ng
5 manufacture, labeling.
6 Q. What certain business decisions do
7 you have in mind when you give that answer,
8 Dr. Keller?
9 MR. ZIMMER: The question lacks
1 0 foundation, calls for speculation.
1 1 You can respond i f you know.
1 2 I can't give you a de f inite answer
13 on that .
1 4 BY MR. TALLON:
'
15
MR. TALLON:
Canyou read that
1 6 immediately prior answer back, please? I
1 I
j
i j
i
1 7 just want to be sure I didn't mishear it.
1 8 THE COURTREPORTER:
j I
19
"A. Well, I think it was used to
j
. i!
2 0 make certain business decisions and what to
2 1 do about manufacture of products, continuing
2 2 manufacture , labeling. "
2 3 BY MR. TALLON:
2 4 Q. Do you have any understanding as
25 to how information or data you developed was
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
used in making business decisions with
respect to labeling?
A. That was just not my bailiwick, my
responsibility, and I had nothing to do with
that. I have no recollection of them.
BY MR. TALLON:
Q. I appreciate that, although it
renders your answer somewhat inexplicable.
Do you believe that there is a linkage
,
between the information and data you
!
developed and labeling decisions that were
made by Monsanto?
A. Now?
Q. Yeah .
'
A. Well, I guess I would say I
i
believe there is, yes.
Q. Keller?
And what linkage is that. Dr.
I I
MR. ZIMMER: Calls for speculation, again.
A. Well, the linkage would be that information regarding PCB's was needed by business units to make the right business decisions . BY MR. TALLON:
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1 Q. I don't doubt that, Dr. Keller,
2 but I am trying to specifically focus on a
3 comment that you made that you thought that
4 the information and data you developed had an
5 impact on business decisions that went to
6 labeling, among other things, and in order to
7 give that answer, you must have had something
8 in mind.
9 MR. ZIMMER: He said he believed
1 0 that that occurred.
1 1 MR. TALLON: Shall we read the
1 2 answer back again?
1 3 MR. ZIMMER: Why don't we.
1 4 THE COURT REPORTER:
15
"A.
Well, I think it was used to
1 6 makecertain business decisions and what to
1 7 do about manufacture of products, continuing
1 8 manufacture, labeling."
1 9 . BY MR . TALLON:
2 0 Q. What is the basis for your
2 1 thinking that the information and data you
2 2 developed was used in connection with any
2 3 business decisions having to do with
2 4 labeling?
25 A. I have no direct basis except to
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_jt know that the business unit would have used
2 that information to make the right decisions.
3 Q. To make -- excuse me -- what?
4 A. To make the right decisions.
5 Q. Are you thinking of any particular
6 decisions or any particular labeling?
*
7 A . No .
8 Q. And when you answered that you
9 thought that the information and data you
1 0 developed was implicated in business
1 1 decisions having to do with continuing
1 2 manufacture, what was the basis of your
1 3 thought ?
1 4 MR. ZIMMER: Once again, calls for
1 5 speculation, lacks foundation, as has this
1 6 whole line of questioning.
1 7 MR. TALLON: Counsel, if we want
18
to read the answer back again, I will, but I
I
1 9 would appreciate your stop doing that,
2 0 because it suggests that you are coaching the
2 1 witness to render it to speculation when he
2 2 testified that he thought there was a
2 3 relationship, and I'm entitled to probe that,
2 4 as you know.
2 5 MR. ZIMMER: Fine, and I'm not
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1 coaching the witness, nor do my objections
2 which I'm entitled t o make suggest th at, so I
3 would appreciate i t if you could keep your
4 comments about my s t y 1 e of defending a
5 deposition to yourself.
6 MR. TALLON: Let's read the
7 answer .
8 MR. ZIMMER: An answer --
9 MR. TALLON: I'm sorry, I thought
1 0 you were finished.
1 1 MR. ZIMMER: An answer that says,
1 2 "I think that another department was doing
1 3 something or other" is, on its face,
1 4 speculative. That should be obvious. This
15
whole line is just, it'suseless,because
you
1 6 can ask the people involved what they did
17 with the information that Dr. Keller's
1 8 department generated.
1 9 MR. TALLON: Well, today, we have
2 0 Dr. Keller,and we're exploring his knowledge
2 1 and recollection.
2 2 MR. ZIMMER: Okay, why don't you
2 3 ask him another question.
2 4 BY MR. TALLON:
2 5 Q. Do you have the question in mind,
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1 or would it be helpful to hear it again? 2 A. I'll make a comment relative to 3 the statement. 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. I made a poor choice of examp 1e s 6 in my answer . 11 was an example, and not a
fact. I had no involvement, to my knowledge, 8 with labeling, and I really don't know how 9 our results were used by any of the o ther 10 groups within Monsanto, and that was a poor 11 choice of examples. Now, if you think I'm, 12 I've got some information back here about, 13 hey, I know all about 1abeling, I don't. It 1 4 w a s n' t my area. I can't draw on anything 15 that would say, "Well, the Medical Department 1 6 took this information in from Keller, uh-huh, 1 7 now we got to do something relative to 1 8 labeling." i have absolutely no information 1 9 on that. I don't recall. 20 Q. -- excus e me. I didn't realize 2 1 you weren't finished. 2 2 When you testified that you 2 3 though t that some of the information and data 2 4 you used or developed was used in business 2 5 decisions relating to the continuing
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1 manufacture of the product, to what were you
2 referring?
3 MR. ZIMMER: Same objections.
4 A . I was referring to the fact that
5 wesupport a commercial operation and we
6 aren't there just running instruments every
7 day, turning information that is of no value
8
The business units needthis information
to
9
makeproper judgments.
On that basis, I'm
1 0 reasonably confident in my own mind that PCB
1 1 information was so used. You asked me what
1 2 was it. I can't tell you. I don't know.
1 3 BY MR . TALLON:
1 4 Q. Do you know whether, in 1967,
1 5 there was a goal to attempt to continue the
1 6 sales of PCB products?
1 7 MR. ZIMMER: Lacks foundation.
1 8 A. I'm not aware of it.
1 9 BY MR . TALLON :
2 0 Q. Do you know whether there came a
2 1 time when it was determined that PCB-based
2 2 products would be discontinued for sale by
2 3 Monsanto?
2 4 A. I'm aware that there was
2 5 consideration of that.
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Q . And you are aware that there came 2 a time when Monsanto did discontinue the sale 3 of PCB-based products, correct? 4 A. Yes, I am. 5 Q. Okay, and do you know at any t i 6 before that decision was made w h e ther ther 7 was an effort to continue the sal e s and us 8 of PCB's? 9 A. Not to my best recollection. 1 0 Q. Did you play any role in providing 1 1 information, so far as you know, that went 1 2 into the decision to discontinue the sale and 1 3 use of PCB-based products? 1 4 A . I -- I just can't re call that. 1 5 Q The itinerary which is a 11 a c h e d 1 6 par t of the exhibit before you, Dr . Keller 1 7 b e 1 i e v e that one of the things that you 1 8 testified to was that you and Mr. Hardy 1 9 visited with Mr. Holden? Is that correct? 2 0 A . Right, mm - h mm . 2 1 Q Was that visit in Scotland? 2 2 A . Yes. 2 3 Q Did you, during the course of that 2 4 visit, exchange any documents in the terms of 2 5 Mr. Holden giving you any documents and you
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1 giving him any documents? 2 A. Not that I recall, except what 3 might have been penciled as a note or 4 something. 5 Q . Did you, by the way, Dr. Keller, 6 take notes during the course of your trip? 7 A. Yes . 8 MR. TALLON: Let me show you a
9 document which we'll mark as the next exhibit
1 0 in order, a mu11ip a g e documen t which begins 11 on Page TRAN 007217 and goes all the way 12 through TRAN 007290 and is titled "notes, 1 3 European trip, Aroclor." And we'll take a 1 4 moment to look a t that and see if you can 1 5 identify it for us. 1 6 (Plaintiff's Deposition 17 Exhibit 287 marked for 1 8 identification.) 1 9 (Witness peruses said 20 document.) 21 MR. ZIMMER: Did we get the TRAN 2 2 numbers this encompasses? 23 MR. TALLON: Mm-hmm. 2 4 MR. ZIMMER: Thank you. 2 5 BY MR. TALLON:
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1 2
3 4 5
6
7
8
9
10 11 12
13 14 15
16
17
18
19
20
21 22 23 24 25
Q they?
Those are not your notes, are
A . 11 looks like i t could be my
w riting
o f that point i n time. The last
page is a little disconcerting.
Q You are referring to the reference on Page 7290 that says "R. Keller called"?
A. Yeah.
Q. Are you able to discern by review
of these notes whether or not they are yours?
A. Yeah, it's my best opinion they
are mine. I have some, some of the writing
doesn't look like it's quite mine, but the
reason I qualify this, I believe it is mine
in that, after looking at this a little
closer, the front end of this does not relate
to the trip or the itinerary made on PCB's.
It relates to visits to plant laboratories,
plant facilities at Ruabon and Newport, so
this is in -- this is something totally
unrelated to what we're talking about over
here.
At the point where it starts on
7233, that, that does relate, and I believe
from that point on.
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1 q . Do you recollect meetings which 2 correspond with the first pages of the notes 3 7218 through 7232? 4 A. What I can't construct, I can't in 5 my mind recall, that I made the trip ahead -6 well, let's see. This was 4/24. Was there 7 a n 8 over here? Okay, it does precede April 8 2 8. The part that I can't recall, if these 9 are my notes, then it means that I apparently
10 went over earlier and visited these other
11 sites on the front end of this, prior to 1 2 picking up with this agenda over here on the 1 3 ar odors in the environment with Wheeler and 14 Richard, so that's my best assessment of what 15 this is, what it represents. 16 Q . Do you remember anything in 17 particular about your discussions with Mr. 18 Holden, based on your review of these notes 19 or based on your recollection, unaided by 20 review of the notes? 21 A. Well, Holden was a t the Department 2 2 of Agriculture, fisheries a t Pitlochry, and 2 3 the visit there was primarily to review his 2 4 work on PCB's in aquatic species, where his 2 5 work was mostly with gas chromatography.
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1 That was done, and a s I recall, he was guided 2 in large part by Widmark and his earlier 3 work, and felt by reviewing back -- I'm 4 talking about Holden now -- reviewing back 5 earlier chromatograms from wildlife species 6 of a few years earlier, then he decided that 7 the interferences he had been seeing and 8 c o u1d n ' t explain could be PCB - type materials 9 a s found by Holden and Jensen . That's the 10 nub of what I remember about what was said, 11 here. 12 Q. Do you recall , Dr. Keller, any 13 discussion with Mr. Holden a s to whe ther DDT 14 degradation accounted for the presence of 15 PCB's when they, PCB ' s were found in the
16 Presence of DDT?
17 A. That was DDT degradation? 18 Q. Yes. 1 9 A.. Well, if it was discussed , I don't 2 0 remember it. 21 Q. Perhaps you could look a t Page 2 2 7233 and see if anything on that page 23 refreshes your recollection in that respect. 2 4 A. That's of my penciled notes, here? 2 5 Q. Yes, of the note, the notebook.
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1 A . 7 2 --
2 Q 33 . 3 A . - - 3 3. All right, your question
4 again?
5 Q. Does review of that page refresh
6 your recollection in any respect as to
7 whether DDT degradation was a subject of
8 discussion among you, Mr. Hardy, and Mr.
9 Holden?
1 0 A. Only to the extent that sentence
1 1 a d d r e s s e s it. "Evidence for DDT d e g r a d a t i o n
1 2 does not e x p 1 a in all chlorina ted
1 3 by-pr o d u c t s , " and at this poi n t in time 2 5
1 4 years 1 a ter, I cannot add to i t .
1 5 Q . Are you able today , Dr. Keller , 1 6 recollect any aspect of the d i s c u s s i o n with
1 7 Drs. Robinson -- or, Dr. R o b i n s o n and M r .
18
Richardson of Shell Research,
Ltd., on
1 9 Tuesday, April 29th, 1969?
2 0 A. This was addressed toward work
2 1 they had been doing with pesticides,
2 2 Richardson and Shell, and the fact that they
2 3 had also found interferences in their
2 4 chromatograms, looking at pesticides, and
2 5 deciding that maybe they couldnow better
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1 explain those interferences based on Widmark
2 and Jensen's work. That was primarily what
3 was reviewed with them.
4 Q. Do you recall, either in
5 discussions with Mr. Holden or Dr. Robinson
6 and Mr. Richardson, whether particular
7 aroclors were discussed?
8 A. Well, my best recollection is
9 there was some discussion of why were higher
1 0 chlorinated biphenyl species found a s
1 1 residues in aquatic species, fish, birds, and
1 2 asking the question what could be the source
1 3 of these, and relative back to Aroclor-type
1 4 products, not necessarily Aroclor but more
1 5 likely European PCB products in that area, so
1 6 that was in a discussion but I can't play
I
1 7 back anything beyond that except what I find
1 8 in my notes here which I can't even recall at
1 9 this point.
2 0 Q. Do you recall identifying with any
2 1 of the gentlemen with wh om you met on your
2 2 European trip, possible sources for the
2 3 presence of PCB's in the e nvironmen t ?
2 4 A . Again, do I r e c a 11 ?
2 5 Yes.
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/V . Could you play that back again?
Q . Oh, yes. Sorry. Do you recall,
in any of your discussions with the gentlemen
you visited with in Europe, discussions --
A. Gentlemen being --
Q. All the gentlemen whose names are
listed on the itinerary, yes. Do you recall
discussing withany of those gentlemen
possible sources for the presence of PCB's in
the environment?
A . Yes.
Q. What do you recall?
A. One I believe I've mentioned
already was with W i d m a r k , where he was
suggesting maybe it could come. PCB-type
materials could come from paint o n s h i p s ,
;
again addressing why were the residues being
1
found in wildlife species, aquatic wildlife
species. That's the only thing that comes back to me immediately as to source.
j
Questions were being asked by everybody but
nobody had a good explanation.
Q. Do you have any recollection, Dr.
Keller, of having discussed with any of the
gentlemen you met, whether the presence of
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PCB's in the environment was explainable by
the use of PCB-based lubricants in any of the
jurisdictions or locales you visited?
A . I have no recollection o f that.
g . Would you -- I've lost m y page now -- flip to Pages 7239 and 7240? And at
the bottom of 7239 and the top of 7240, tell
:
me if any portion of your review of those
j
pages refreshes your recollection as to whether or not there was any discussion that you recall with respect to PCB-based lubricants?
!
j
i J
j
i
A . I can't add anything beyond what i
appears on these two pages. I'm trying to
determine in my own mind who was being talked j
with on my part at the time these notes were
taken, and I'm not sure, certain about that.
There's a reference to the -- this journal.
MR. ZIMMER: Well, let's wait till
he asks you a question. He's not asking you
to interpret the note right now. He's
entitled to do that if he wants, but he's
asking if what you read at the bottom of one
page, top of the next refreshes your
recollection.
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A1 A . The answer is n o . 9 BY MR. TALLON: 3 Q . Is there anotation or reference 4 within a reasonable number of pages from 7239 5 or 7240 which indicates to you the discussion 6 to which these notes related? 7 MR. ZIMMER: I'll have to object. 8 That calls for speculation because he's 9 already said he doesn't remember the 1 0 discussions. 11 (Witness peruses document.) 1 2 A . No. No. 1 3 BY MR. TALLON: 1 4 Q Would you turn, please. Dr. 1 5 Keller, to page TRAN 007272? 16 A. 0072 -17 Q . 7 2? 1 8 A . --72. 1 9 Q. Does anything on that page, Dr. 2 0 K e 11 e r, refresh your recollection as t o 2 1 d i s c u ssions that you had during your visit 2 2 E u r o p e as those discussions related to the 2 3 s o u r c e of PCB ' s found in the environment? 2 4 A . No . 2 5 Q. Doctor, do you have any
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1 understanding as to the reason or purpose for
2 which you believe you may have recorded these
3 notes?
4 A. Primarily to come back with the
5 best recording of our findings that we can
6 have.
7 Q. Did you take them while you were
8 in Europe?
9 A. Take them?
,
1 0 Q. Did you jot down these notes while 1
1 1 you wereactually, physically inEurope?
;
1 2 A . Yes.
1 3 Q. Doctor, do you recollect the 1 4 length of the period during which you met 1 5 with Professor Widmark while on your 1969 1 6 journey to Europe?
I
; ii
, !
1 7 A. One day.
18
Q. And do you know if others on
>
j
1 9 behalf of Monsanto met with Professor Widmark .
2 0 on that occasion for more than one day?
2 1 A. Not to my knowledge.
2 2 Q. And to the best of your
2 3 recollection, what was discussed between you
2 4 and Dr. Widmark or Professor Widmark on that
2 5 occasion?
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1 A . It involved review of his GC/mass 2 equipment, skills, and just what he might 3 have, plans for the future, if anything, plus 4 anything he could tell us about PCB findings 5 beyond what he had published, 6 Q. Did he tell you anything about PCB 7 findings beyond what he had published? 8 A, There was a playback, essentially, 9 of what he had published. 1 0 Q. Did Professor Widmark give you any 11 indication of what he intended to do in the 1 2 future with respect to similar work or 1 3 similar subjects? 1 4 A. .That was up in the air, we found 1 5 out, because Dr. Jensen w e did not meet with 1 6 out o f town, and I think they were trying to 17 d e c i d e how they were g oi ng to continue on 1 8 their programs. 1 9 Q. Did Professor Widmark give you 2 0 information on that occasion that you did 2 1 find helpful for running your own GC/mass 2 2 system? 2 3 A. We, we felt that was a very 2 4 helpful visit with Professor Widmark and he 2 5 provided insight as to methodology which we
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i brought back, I don't recall at this point 2 whether these were anything in writing, 3 orally, or what could be gleaned out of 4 notes, but he was helpful. There was no 5 question about that. 6 Q. Do you recollect any particular 7 information furnished to you by Professor 8 Widmark which you found helpful? 9 A . Now, what was the f i r s t part of 1 0 that, again , please? 1 1 Q Yes. Do you r e c a 1 1 any particular 1 2 information -- 1 3 A . Particular inf ormati o n . The -- I 1 4 can't give you detail on this, but it would 1 5 relate to how to extract, s e p a r ate, extract, 1 6 concentrate PCB-type mate rials from tissue of 1 7 wildlife. 1 8 Q Anything else? 1 9 A . No . 2 0 Q. When you returned, Dr. Keller, did 2 1 you make any written reports covering the 2 2 subjects of your trip to Europe? 2 3 A. Yes, but I can't recall it. I 2 4 don't know if it was a -- it was something 2 5 reduced to writing. Whether it was a
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1 distribution, I just don't know a t this 2 point.
3 MR. TALLON: Let me show you. Dr. 4 Keller , a multipage document which bears
5 production number s TRAN 0 2 2 0 9 6 through TRAN
6 0 2 210 6 . 7
8
(Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 288 marked for
9 identification.)
10 BY MR. TALLON:
11 Q . Would you take a momen t to review 1 2 Exhibit Number 288? 1 3 (Witness peruses said 1 4 document.) 1 5 MR . ZIMMER: You want him to read
1 6 the whole thing, or just skim it?
17 MR . TALLON: I want him to review
1 8 it. I f you feel more comfortable reading the 1 9 entire document, please do so. I intend to 2 0 ask you whether you can identify the document
2 1 for the record. 22 (Witness peruses said 2 3 document . ) 2 4 A. Yes. 2 5 BY MR. TALLON:
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i C . Can you identify the document? 2 A . Yes. 3 Q. Please, do so. 4 A. It's a document I generated. 5 Q. And what is reflected in that 6 document, Dr. Keller? What is reflected in 7 the document? 8 A. What is reflected is information 9 obtained and exchanged through our visits out 1 0 of the European trip. 1 1 Q. Do you recollect having dictated 1 2 the notes appearing in this exhibit, Dr. 1 3 Keller? 1 4 A . I haven't read this document word 1 5 for word at this point, but with that 1 6 qualification, I would say yes, this is what 1 7 Idictated. 1 8 Q. And do you recollect the reason 1 9 for which you sought to record the 2 0 information appearing in the document? 2 1 A. So I'd have the best information 2 2 available that we obtained; as complete a 2 3 record as possible. 2 4 Q. Do you recollect approximately 2 5 when you dictated the material appearing in
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1 this exhibit?
2 A . Well, the d o c u m e n t is date d
3
6-12- 6 9 .
I have n o o t h e r -- I can't recall
4 that. T h a t could b e t h e date, it c o u Id be
5
different, andthat's all
I can add.
6
Q.
Do yourecollect
ever having used
7 the information reflected in this exhibit to
8 create any other document ordocuments?
9 A . No .
1 0 Q Do you have any r e c o 11 e c tion o f 1 1 having ask ed Professor Widmark for his
1 2 recommenda tion of what he would d o if he were 1 3 a manufact urer of PCB's ? 1 4 MR . ZIMMER: Whatwe w o u Id do
1 5 about what 7
1 6 MR. TALLON: What he w o u Id do i f
1 7 he were -- okay, --
1 8 BY MR. TALLON:
1 9 Q Do you have any r e c o 11 e c tion o f
2 0 asking Professor Widmark what he would do if
2 1 he were in a manufacturer's position
2 2 involving PCB's?
2 3 A. I guess there would be no basis
2 4 for my asking that question.
2 5 Q. Does looking at Page TRAN 022105
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1 refresh your recollection in any respect as
2 to whether or not you asked that question of
3
Professo r Widmark?
I t 1' s page 10.
I f you
4 look a t the numbers a t the top of the page
5 here,, i t ' 11 be page 1 0 .
6 A . All right, I don't recall that.
7 It reads, "When asked what he would do."
8 There were several there. I don't know who
9 asked this.
1 0 Q Do you remember the q u 1 1 asked o f Prof essor Widmark, n o t w i
1 2 the s o u r c e of the question?
1 3 A . At this point in time
1 4 remember.
1 5 Q . Do you have a r e c o 11 e c t i o n o f
1 6 Professor Widmark having said a t any point
1 7 during your meeti n g with him that h e would
1 8 restrict PCB's to closed s y s t e m s ?
1 9 A. Yes, I remember his answers to
2 0 this. That part I remember his answers.
2 1 Q. By "that part," are you -
2 2 A. I'm talking about item 1, 2 and 3.
23
.Q.
And can you tell me what you
2 4 recollect about Professor Widmark's comments
2 5 in that regard?
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A. Joining he said anything -- I can't recollect anything beyond what's, what's down here, one, two, three.
Q. In other words, you don't recollect today whether he elaborated on any of the points made?
A. Not to my knowledge. Q. Do you recollect that following the meeting with Professor Widmark, you discussed with any other employee or representative of Monsanto whether PCB's should be restricted to closed systems?
THE WITNESS: Can you read that back?
THE COURT REPORTER: "Q. Do you recollect that following the meeting with Professor Widmark, you discussed with any other employee or representative of Monsanto whether PCB's should be restricted to closed systems?" A. No, I did not, to my best recollection . BY MR. TALLON: Q. Are you familiar with the term "closed system"?
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A . I guess I'll say yes, but I guess 2 I'm not very knowledgeable. 3 Q. Well, I don't want to use a term 4 that you don't understand so I will ask you 5 what you mean when you use the term "closed 6 system. " 7 A. Well, I presume it means it's a 8 system where a substance, environmentally 9 speaking, would not escape into the 1 0 environment. 1 1 Q. Did you ever do any work designed 1 2 to determin e w h e t h e r systems were open 1 3 systems v e r s u s c 1 o s ed systems ? 1 4 A . No, not that I cou Id r ecall. 1 5 Q Do you r ecall ever b e i n g pres e n t 1 6 during a d i scussion where res trie ting t h e u s 1 7 of PCB ' s t o closed systems wa s a subject o f 1 8 the discuss ion? 1 9 A . No . 2 0 Q Do you r ecollect e v e r having b e e n 2 1 part of a d iscussion where a s ub j e c t of t h e 2 2 discussion was the desire to find a 2 3 substitute for PCB' s ? 2 4 A . I can't recollect any such 2 5 discussion.
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1 Q Did Dr. R i c h a r d ever comment to 2 you that he thought that Monsanto should 3 disc o n t i nue sales of PCB ' s ? 4 A . I have no recoil ection of that, 5 hmm- mm . 6 Q . Do you recollect ever having 7 a 11 e n d e d a meeting where Dr . Richard 8 disc u s s e d the advi sability of continuing to 9 sell PCB ' s ? 1 0 A . No . 1 1 Q Do you recall e v er having heard 1 2 from any source th at Dr. R i chard had stated 1 3 that Monsanto should withdraw from the sale 14 of PCB ' s? 1 5 A . No . 1 6 MR . ZIMMER: When you use PC B ' s 1 7 here, Counsel, you mean all PCB ' s ? 1 8 MR . TALLON: Right . 1 9 BY MR . TALLON: 2 0 Q . Let me show you now, Dr. Keller, a 2 1 document bearing production numbers TRAN 2 2 005818 through 5827, and I'm going to -- the 2 3 question I will be asking you, at least 2 4 initially, is whether you've ever seen the 2 5 document before, so please undertake such
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1 review as would be necessary to enable you to
2 answer that question.
3 (Plaintiff's Deposition
4 Exhibit 289 marked for
5 identification. )
6 (Witness peruses said
7 document . )
8 BY MR . TALLON :
9 Q. Can you identify the exhibit, Dr.
1 0 Keller?
I I
1 1 A. I don't recall seeing it.
1 2 Q. Would it, therefore, follow that
1 3 you don't recall whether you participated in
1 4 drafting any portion of this document? 1 5 (Witness peruses said
1
1 6 document. )
1 7 A. I had no involvement with the
1 8 drafting of this document. 1 9 Q Dr. Keller, do you have any
I
2 0 recollecti on as to whether o r not the work of
2 1 Jensen and Widm ark related i n part to bird
2 2 feathers , presence of P CB ' s in bird feathers?
2 3 A . Bird feathers; n o .
2 4 Q Do you have any recollection
2 5 whether Jensen and Widmark found PCB's in
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1 museum specimens of seabirds?
2 A . I don't recall. I have no
3 recollection of that.
4 Q. Would you just take a moment and
5 look at Page 2 of the exhibit before you,
6 2 8 9 ? I t ' s the P a g e n u m b e red 2. That page
7 that you have b e f ore you now. In the
8 second -to -last pa r a g r a p h appearing o n that
9 page, the d o c u m e n t states , " E x a m i n a t i o n o f j
1 0 f e a t h e r s from m u s e u m spec im e n s of s e a b i r d s j
1 1 s u g g e s ted that c o ntaminat ion comme need i n
1 2 1 9 4 4. " Do you s e e that?
1 3 A . Yes
| l
14
Q Doe s r e vie w of that sen t e n c e
i
II
15
refresh your recollection in any fashion as
j
1 6 to your knowledge of whether or not Jensen
17
and Widmark's study concerned examination
of
1 8 museum specimens of seabirds?
1 9 A. I cannot recall any comment being
2 0 made in my presence of that type.
2 1 Q. Okay.
2 2 MR. TALLON: Okay, why don't we
2 3 take a two-minute break.
2 4 (Recess)
2 5 BY MR. TALLON:
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1 Q D r . Keller, other than the meeting 2 with Professor Widmark that you described in 3 your testimony of a few moments ago, did you 4 ever meet with Professor Widmark again? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Did you meet with him again on one 7 occasion or more than one occasion? 8 A. I only recall one, one occasion. 9 Q. And when did that take place? 1 0 A. That would have been in 1970, when 1 1 we made a return trip to Europe. 1 2 MR. ZIMMER: I'm sorry to 1 3 interrupt but are we including the visit that 1 4 Professor Widmark made to Monsanto? I just 1 5 didn't know whether that was prefaced in your 1 6 question or not. 1 7 BY MR. TALLON: 1 8 Q. Other than the meeting that you 1 9 described with Dr. Widmark or Professor 2 0 Widmark in your office and the meeting that 2 1 you described with him in Europe, do you 2 2 recollect having had any other meeting? 2 3 A. One more; the 1970 follow-up, 2 4 European trip. 2 5 Q. To your knowledge, did other
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* representatives of Monsanto -- and by
2 "other," I mean other than yourself -- meet
3 with Professor Widmark on any other occasion
4 than the three that you have now identified
5 for us?
6 A. Not to my knowledge.
7 Q. When you met with Professor
8
Widmark in 1970,whether
you accompanied by
9 anyone else working for Monsanto or
1 0 representing Monsanto?
1 1 A. Yes.
1 2 Q. By whom?
1 3 A . Elmer Wheeler.
1 4 Q Was anyone else represen ting 1 5 Monsanto or present at the meeting to which
1 6 you have referred?
1 7 A . Bill Papageo r g e was on that trip.
1 8 I can't recall whether h e visited with, also
1 9 with us , with Widmark, o r not. I''m not clear
2 0 on that point. I just don 't recall that.
2 1 Q. Was the 1970 trip to Europe for
2 2 the purpose of holding a Jnumber of meetings
2 3 of which the meeting with Professor Widmark
2 4 was one?
25 A. Correct.
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1 Q . In addition to Mr. Wheeler and Mr.
2 Papageorge, were other representatives of
3 Monsanto present at any of the meetings,
4 other meetings which took place during that
5 trip?
6 A. Not thatI recall.
7 Q. Do you recall the month or months
8 in which the 1970 trip to Europe took place?
9 A. To my best recollection, it was
1 0 May.
1 1 Q. When for the first time do you
1 2 recollect being informed that or asked to go
1 3 on a trip to Europe for the purpose of
1 4 meeting with Professor Widmark or others?
1 5 A. For the second trip? 1 6 Q. For the second time.
i
1 7 A. I have no recollection of when
1 8 that evolved.
1 9 Q. Do you have a present
2 0 understanding as to the reason why you went
2 1 on that trip?
2 2 A. Yes.
2 3 Q What is that understanding? 2 4 A . To provide knowledge and expertise
2 5 relative to ana 1ytica 1-type problems.
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questions, concerns.
Q. Were the analytical problems,
questions and concerns which you were
available to resolve, problems, questions and
concerns in relationship to PCB's?
A . Yes.
Q. Were you invited to attend or
directed to attend?
MR. ZIMMER
Or none of the above?
A. I would say I'll answer it this
way: It evolved, in my mind, the same way
the first one did, through the Medical
Department and the Business Group, by their
taking lead role on deciding this should be
done.
Q. Was it fair to say, then, that you
were informed that your presence was desired?
A. A fair statement.
Q. And with whom in the Medical
Department did you communicate about the
trip?
A. Elmer Wheeler.
Q. Anyone else?
A. Dr. Kelly.
Q. Anyone else?
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1 A . Not that I re call. 2 Q . And with whom representing the 3 Business Group did you communicate about the 4 trip befo re you actually made it? 5 A . Dr . Richard. That's all. 6 Q Did you communicate about the trip 7 before actually making it with Mr. 8 Papageorge? 9 A. Not that I can recall. 1 0 Q. Do know what Mr. Papageorge's 1 1 title was a t the time that he made the trip 1 2 with you , o r made legs of the trip with you? 1 3 A . M y best recollection is that h e 1 4 would have been, in 1970, he would have been 1 5 the product acceptability manager. 1 6 Q Do you know if Mr. Papageorg e at 1 7 that time had any parti cular responsibi 1 i ty 1 8 related to P C B ' s ? 1 9 A . Yes. 2 0 Q - Do you know that he did have such 2 1 responsibility? 2 2 A . Yes. 2 3 Q . And wh a t is your understandi n g of 2 4 the responsibility that he had? 2 5 A . To work c 1 o s ely with the Business
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1 Group, Research and Development Department,
2 Medical Department, with outside interested
3 parties on assuring the the quality, the
4 acceptability of products.
5 BY MR. TALLON:
6 Q. What was your understanding, Dr.
7 Keller, the purpose for the 1970 trip to
8 Europe, or purposes, if there was more than
9 one?
10
A.
Well, the purpose or purposes was
1
11
to develop a current, clear picture of what
;
]
12
had been further developed and accomplished
1
1 3 in Europe on PCB -- on the PCB question. It
1 4 was to be directed toward analytical, with ,
1 5 some emphasis with trying to discuss and work
1
1 6 with if that was, would be appropriate, other |
1 7 manufacturers of PCB-type products.
I
j
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18
Q.
When you used the term to gain a
;
1 9 current clear picture of what had been
I
2 0 further developed, had something been further
2 1 developed in Europe with relationship to
2 2 PCB'S?
2 3 A. Nothing that we had in mind
2 4 specifically. It was just to see what
2 5 further information was available.
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1 Q. Was there a particular catalyst or 2 a series of catalysts, as you recall it, for 3 taking this trip? 4 A. To justify it, you mean? 5 Q . Right. 6 A. No, there was nothing -- the 7 catalyst was the Medical Department. 8 Q. In what respect, Dr. Keller? 9 A. Well, they were taking, certainly, 1 0 a lead role and wanting to get to the 1 1 forefront on what is this situation with 1 2 PCB's in the environment, and it comes back 1 3 again , as I've stated, to Mr . Wheel e r . 1 4 Q . Was there any new ly-publ i s h e d 1 5 information or series of new public a t i o n s f 1 6 which factored into the deci sio n to take this 1 7 trip, so far a s you know? 1 8 A . Not that I recall in t h i s point in 1 9 time. I don't remember when public a t i o n s 2 0 suddenly started to come. I can't refer you 2 1 back to anything specific. I don't remember 2 2 anything. 2 3 Q . Was there any building c o n c e r n o r 2 4 sense of urgency which contributed to the 2 5 decision to take this trip, so far as you
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know?
A . No.
Q. Were you ever a participant in
discussing the plans for the trip before it
actually took place?
A. On this trip, I had little input
on where the trip would go. They knew our
interests would be Widmark, other stops were
primarily out of Papageorge,Wheeler,
possibly the R & D Business Group.
Q. Do you recollect theapproximate
length of time that you were in Europe on
this 1970 trip?
A . On business.
Q Okay, on business. A . My best recollection
approximately ten days, two weeks.
Q. Do you know whether Mr. Wheeler,
Mr. Papageorge or others made stops during
the trip where you did not accompany them?
A.
No.
I don't recall any.
Q. Do you recollect the approximate
length of your 1970 visit with Professor
Widmark?
A. Approximately one day.
I I
i I
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1 Q . And was anyone other than
2 Professor Widmark present not representing
3 Monsanto?
4 A No .
5 Q For example, Jensen?
6 A He was not there.
7 Q Have you ever met Jensen? 8 A Never met Jensen.
9 Q And I may have cut off your last 1 0 answer . Was Professor Widmark accompanied by
1 1 anyone?
l
12 A No .
1 3 Q T o the best o f y o u r recollection, 1 4 where did that me e t i n g t a k e Pi ace?
1 5 A . In Pro f e s s o r W i dm a r k's office and
1 6 laboratories .
1 7 Q. And to the best you recall today,
1 8 what was discussed during the course of that
1 9 meeting?
2 0 A. The PCB situation again was
2 1 addressed. There was less to come to us from
2 2 Widmark regarding techniques, equipment,
2 3 methods, and actually, Widmark had reached
2 4 the point where he apparently was dropping
2 5 his involvement with PCB work and heading
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1 2
3 4 5
6
7
8
9
10 11 12
13 14 15
16
17
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19
20 21 22
23 24 25
into other things.
Q. Was there anything that you had
hoped to accomplish in the course of that
meeting with Professor Widmark?
A. Nothing except to have the benefit
of what he knew, what he could help us, no
other objective that I recall.
Q Do you recollect today that he provided you with any information which a t
the time h e found useful?
A . No, I don't.
Q Do you recollect having share d any
informat ion with Professor Widmark about
studies o r analyses that had been c o m p 1 e ted
by Monsanto by that time?
. A . I can't remember if there was any
exchange o f results we might have had on PCB
findings with him or not. When we found that
he was at the point where he really wasn't
i
that actively involved with it, it changed a
picture a little bit. So I just don't recall
anything.
Q. Had you been aware that change of
direction on Professor Widmark's part before
you arrived in stock home?
GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI
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1
A
No .
I was not.
I was not aware
2 of it.
3 Q. Do you mean to suggest by your
4 answer that Mr. Wheeler was?
5 A. Pardon?
6 Q. Do you mean to suggest by that
7 answer that Mr. Wheeler was or that someone
8 else was?
9 A. No. To my knowledge, no one was
1 0 aware of this.
11
Q.
Do you know who
arranged for the
1 2 meeting with Professor Widmark in May of
13 1970?
1 4 That would have been Mr . Wheeler
1 5 Was there any d i s c u s s ion at the
1 6 meeting with Professor Widmark whether or not ;
1 7 Monsanto would continue to sell PCB-based
1 8 products?
19
A. Well, I -- that may have been
.
2 0 discussed but I can't recall it for you and
2 1 someone like Bill Papageorge would have to
2 2 answer that because that's out of my
2 3 responsibility.
2 4 Q. Do you recollect anything else
2 5 about the meeting with Professor Widmark
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HARTOLDMON0008390
1 other than what you've just told me?
2 A . No .
3 Q Did you take notes of the meeting? 4 A . I'm sure I d id, but I can'1 t
5 p i c t u r e what they were.
6 Q. Did you attend other meetings
7 while on that 1970 trip to Europe?
8 A. Yes, there were several other
9 stops .
1 0 Q. And which stops do you remember
1 1 today?
1 2 A. Well, there were visits to a
1 3 Beyer, manufacturer of PCB-type products, for
1 4 one --
1 5 Q. You are referring to Beyer the
1 6 company, B-e-y-e-r?
1 7 A. Mm-hmm, right.
I
1 8 Q. Any other visits that you recall I
1 9 today?
2 0 A. Prodelec, France.
2 1 Those are the main ones that come
2 2 immediately to mind.
2 3 Q. Tell me if you would, Dr. Keller,
2 4 what you recollect with respect to the
2 5 meeting with Beyer or about Beyer.
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1 A. BUY-er, B A Y - er. My best
2 recollection is they're a very capable
3 technical company, well equipped in their
4 analytical and support- type services, without
5 any great effort going on the PCB problem,
6 compared to what we wer e doing at Monsanto,
7 They didn't seem to be as generally
8 interested or, perhaps, concerned as we
9
thought we were and wan ted to be.
I would
1 0 estimate they were perh aps maybe a year
!
1 1 behind us in skill to b e able to do some of
1 2 the things that we were doing. That is just
13
my overall impression,
That's about all I
1 4 came away with.
I
1 5 Q. Did Mr. Whee ler and Mr. Papageorge
1 6 alsoattend a meeting w ith Beyer? 1 7 A. Yes.
I
1 8 Q. Where did th at take place, the
1 9 meeting?
20 A. It took place at their office and
2 1 plant location outside of Frankfurt, Germany.
2 2 Q. From Monsanto's point of view, or
2 3 rather, excuse me, do you have an
2 4 understanding of what the purpose of that
2 5 meeting was, from Monsanto's point of view?
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1 A . It was part o f the same picture 2 to find out everything w e c o u Id a b o u t what 3 others who were involved with this type 4 product were doing, and t r y to get all the 5 information we could. We were will i n g t o 6 provide them with informa t i o n , too. 7 Q Did you? 8 A . So it wasn't strictly, we weren't 9 going as a one-way street, but that was the 1 0 mission . 1 1 Q. Did representatives of Beyer 1 2 furnish any information to you or Mr. 1 3 Papageorge or Mr. Wheeler which you recollect 1 4 today? 1 5 A. Very little. I felt we came away 1 6 with not too much. 1 7 Q. Do you recollect whether any of 1 8 the representatives of Beyer discussed with 1 9 you or the other two representatives of 2 0 Monsanto whether they had found lower 2 1 chlorinated biphenyls present in the 2 2 environment? 2 3 A. I have no recollection of that. 2 4 Q. Do you have any recollection if, 2 5 in your 1970 meeting with Professor Widmark,
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HARTOLDMONOOQ8393
1 he discussed with you the presence of lower
2 chlorinated biphenyls in the environment?
3 MR. ZIMMER: Assumes facts not in
4 evidence.
5 A. You are talking about during the
6 visit on the 1970 trip, here?
:
7 BY MR. TALLON:
8 Q . Right.
1
9
A. No, I don't remember that.
j
1 0 Q. Do you remember providing i
1 1 information to representatives of Beyer?
j
t
12
A. Yes, and in general, whattype of
;
1 3 information do you recollect having furnished < ! j
1 4 to them?
\
]\
15
A. Well,information, certainly,
j
i 1 6 about skills, information that wouldn't be j
1 7 pro prietary that we felt w e could e x c h a n g e or
1 8 pro vide, so in this area o f skills , and I ' m
1 9 talking analytical skills, that type of
2 0 information, we gave them a fairly clear
2 1 picture of how we were progressing and what
2 2 we were attempting to do. Now, I should
2 3 preface this, and I can't expand any further
2 4 than that, because it's that fuzzy in my
2 5 mind. At some point, I think there was a
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1
1
little bit of a splitting off between
2 Papageorge, Wheeler and myself, based on what
3 each of us could best cover with them.
4 P a pageorge maybe 1 i k e p r o c e s sing, Wh e e 1 e r
5 1 i k e maybe the toxic o 1 o g y - m e d i c a 1 , s o i t
6 w a sn't always -- and I can't r e c o n s t r u c t
7 i t , -- all three o f u s s i t t i n g in o n e v e r y
8 d i scussion at the s a m e time. M o s 11 y , b u t
9 a 1 ways.
1 0 Q Do you r e collect anyth i n g , D r . 1 1 Keller, about the meeting with
1 2 representatives of Prodelec?
1 3 A. Yes.
1 4 Q. And what is it that you recall?
1 5 A. Well, they were even further
1 6 behind, in my opinion and, I believe, our
17 opinion as a group -- on the trip on concerns
1 8 and actions directed toward the PCB
1 9 situation. They had not done anything that I
2 0 can recall, at least, at this point in time,
2 1 directed toward methodology which would put
2 2 them in a position to determine PCB's. That
2 3 was not a very fruitful visit, in the main.
2 4 It did -- we did come back with the idea that
2 5 Monsanto was doing a lot more than most of
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HARTOLDMONOOQ8395
1 the other manufacturers of the product.
2 Q. A lot more in terms of what?
3 A. Of exploring and trying to get
4 information and get in a position to get more
5 information about PCB materials in the
6 environment and knowledge in general.
7 Q. Did you believe, then, that
8 Monsanto was doing a lot more than the
i
9 representatives of the companies with whom j
10
you had met, in terms of anything other than
:
1 1 getting the kind of information you just
1 2 described?
:
13
MR. ZIMMER: Could we have that
1 4 readback?
1
1 5 THE COURT REPORTER:
1
j
16
"Q. Did you believe, then, that
,
!
1 7 Monsanto was doing a lot more than the
I !
1 8 representatives of the companies with whom :
19
you had met, in terms of anything other than
;
II
20 getting the kind of information you just
2 1 described? "
22 A . No .
2 3 BY MR. TALLON:
2 4 Q. Dr. Keller, are you familiar with
2 5 a Dr. Risebrough of the University of
GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI
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HARTOLDMONOOQ8396
1 California? Coj A. Ye s .
.
3 Q. And can you state the basis for
4 that familiarity?
5 A. Dr. Risebrough, at this period of
6 time that we're talking about, was active on
7 looking at certain aquatic species on the
8 West Coast for PCB-type materials, as well as
9
pesticides. He carried out enough work that
'
1 0 he was interested in publishing this, and
1 1 it's my best recollection there was some
i
1 2 contact made with Monsanto on his part
!
1 3 regarding this publication, potential
;
i
1 4 publication, I guess, on the PCB materials '
1 5 that he was working with.
,
16
Q. And how, personally, did you
|
.j
i
17
become familiar with Mr. Risebrough or his
|
18
work?
i
19
A. Very remote, except I had a
j
2 0 one-time contact with Dr. Risebrough and that
2 1 was when Elmer Wheeler and myself went out
2 2 and visited him at his location for purpose
i
2 3 of a general discussion of PCB findings on |
.
2 4 his part. And I'm not clear in my own mind
2 5 when his publication, when that part of it in
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1 this time frame occurred. 2 MR . TALLON: Let me show you a 3 document, Dr. Keller, which we''ll mark as 4 next exhibit in order. It's a one-page 5 document titled "Public Relations Department" 6 and bearing production number TRAN 058656. 7 (Plaintiff ' s Deposition 8 Exhibit 290 marked for 9 identification. ) 1 0 BY MR. TALLON: 1 1 Q . Take a moment, please, and review 1 2 that. 1 3 (Witness peruses said 1 4 document. ) 1 5 BY MR. TALLON: 1 6 Q. Doctor, does a review of that 1 7 exhibit refresh your recollection in any 1 8 respect as to the timing of any publication 1 9 of any work by Dr. Risebrough? 2 0 A. Well, it says here it appeared in 2 1 "Nature," a UK publication, but I don't think 2 2 this says when, does it? 2 3 MR. ZIMMER: No, and he's not 2 4 asking you to read the document, he's asking 2 5 if it refreshes your recollection as to when
GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI
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1 it appeared. 2 No, it does not 3 BY MR . TALLON : 4 Q. Doctor, while you have that 5 document before you, do you recollect ever 6 having -- not ever, but having given the 7 public relations department of Monsanto 8 information to be used in a proposed press 9 response relating to PCB's or PCB testing? 1 0 A . Not that I recall. 1 1 Q. Do you know whether gas 1 2 chromatography alone will give a valid 1 3 identification for the presence of PCB's? 1 4 A. Yes, I know that. 1 5 And what's the answer? 1 6 A . It will not. 1 7 Q. Does gas chromatography together 1 8 with the use of a mass spectrometer, give a 1 9 positive identification? 2 0 A . Yes . 2 1 Q. It does? 2 2 A. It does. 2 3 Q. Do you have an understanding as to 2 4 the degree of reliability of identification 2 5 when a gas chromatography -- when gas
GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 8
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chromatography is used alone? 2 MR. ZIMMER: Objection; vague. 3 A. Degree of reliability for -- 4 BY MR. TALLON: 5 Q. Identification of- PCB's. 6 A. Not reliable. 7 Q. At all? 8 A. At all. 9 Q. Other than the tr i P y o u mentioned 1 0 that you took to Californi a t o m e e t with Dr . 1 1 Rise brough, do you recolle c t h a v i ng had any 1 2 o t h e r communication with h im, by phone or 1 3 otherwise? 1 4 A. I never had any direct 1 5 communication with him aside that one visit 1 6 that I mentioned that I can recall. 1 7 Q. And do you recall the reason or 1 8 reasons why it was determined by you or 1 9 others that you should take a trip to 2 0 California to meet with Dr. Risebrough? 2 1 A . That was -- yes. 2 2 Q . What d o you recall ? 2 3 A . That was set up p r imarily by Elmer 2 4 Wheeler, Medical Department. 2 5 Q. And do you have an understanding
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1X of the reason or reasons why it was
2 determined that a trip to California to meet
3 with Dr. Risebrough was appropriate at that
4 time?
5 A . I can't answer as to why the
6 timing. I don't know.
7 Q. Can you answer as to the reasons
8 why the trip was taken?
9
MR. ZIMMER:
Calls for
1 0 speculation .
11 A . No .
1 2 BY MR. TALLON:
1 3 Q. You have no understanding of the
1 4 reason why the trip was taken?
15
MR. ZIMMER:
Argumentative.
1 6 A. You are asking me to assume why
1 7 Mr . Wheeler arranged for this visit, and I ' m
1 8 not sure in my own mind. I would be g u e s sing
1 9 iflanswered.
,
2 0 BY MR. TALLON:
2 1 Q. I certainly don't want you to
2 2 guess, but I was questioning whether, apart
2 3 from a guess, you had any understanding as to
2 4 the reason why the trip was taken.
I j
2 5 MR. ZIMMER: Asked and answered.
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A . Any understanding, I thought I had 2 some understanding why the trip was being 3 take n. Whether it was the real reason, I 4 don' t know. 5 Q W e 1 1 , could you r e 1 ate, please 6 u n d e r s tan ding that you had ? 7 A . I t was t o , again - g u e s s what 8 information existed straight from the party 9 that produced it; in this case, PCB residues 1 0 findings, directly from Dr. Risebrough. 1 1 Q. Did Dr. Risebrough furnish you 1 2 with any information during the course of 1 3 your visit with him? 1 4 A . H e review ed findings of- PCB and 1 5 a q u a t i c specie s that he had worked with , a n d 1 6 I don ' t recall what those findings were a t 1 7 this point in time. 1 8 MR. TALLON: Let me show you a 1 9 document, Dr. Keller, that we'll ask the 2 0 court reporter to mark as the next e x h i b 21 order. It'1 s a two-page document be a r i n g 2 2 production number s TRAN 007918 and 7 9 19. 2 3 (Plaintiff's Deposi t i o n 2 4 Exhibit 291 marked for 2 5 identification.)
GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 1
HARTOLDMON0008402
1 (Witness peruses said
2 document . )
3 BY MR. TALLON:
4 Q. Have you reviewed this, Dr.
5 Keller?
6 A . Yes.
7 Q. Does review of that exhibit
8 refresh your recollection in any respect as
9 to the nature of Dr. Risebrough's findings?
1 0 A . No .
1 1 Q. Can you identify that document for
1 2 the record?
1 3 A . It has my name on it. I don't
1 4 remember ge nerating it.
15
Q
Did you know an M. Stanley working
I
16 for Monsant o in February 1969?
i
17 A . My best recollection would be that
1 8 would be Dr . Richard's secretary, Stanley.
1 9 Q Do you recollect whether your trip 2 0 to Californ ia to meet with Dr. Risebrough
2 1 predated or postdated your 1970 trip to
2 2 Europe?
2 3 A . Well, I believe it predated.
2 4 Q And do you know whether your trip
2 5 to Californ ia to meet with Dr. Risebrough
GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI
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1
_L
took place in February 1569?
2 A . No.
3 Q. Do you have any recollection of
4 having dictated your thoughts t o an
5 M. Stanley following your visit with D r .
6 Risebrough?
7 A . No .
8 Q. Did you or rather do you recollect
9 having furnished Dr. Risebrough any
1 0 information at the meeting that you d o
1 1 recollect in California?
1 2 A . No .
1 3 Q. Do you recollectfollowing the
1 4 meeting with Dr. Risebrough whether you had
1 5 reached any conclusions about the validity of
1 6 his work?
1 7 A. No, I don't recall that.
1 8 Q. Do you recollect. Dr. Keller, ever
1 9 having reviewed any papers prepared by Dr.
2 0 Risebrough indraft form?
2 1 A. I have no recollection of that.
2 2 Q Do you remember being a 2 3 participant , Dr . Keller, in any d i s cussions
2 4 at Monsanto with respect to the con elusions
2 5 reached by Dr. Risebrough in his work?
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1 2
3 4 5
6
7
8
9
10 11 12
13 14 15
16
17
18
19
20 21 22
23 24 25
A . No . Q. Do you recollect having received any documentation circulated within Monsanto which commented on Dr. Risebrough's work? A . No .
MR. TALLON: Let me show you a document that, among other numbers, has the production numbers T 091772 through 774, and ask you to take a moment and review that.
(Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 292 marked for identification. ) (Witness peruses said document . ) BY MR. TALLON: Q. Have you reviewed that, Dr. Keller? A. Yes. Q. Do you recollect having received that memorandum? A. I just don't recall receiving this. Q. Does reviewing this memorandum refresh your recollection as to whether or not you were ever a participant in any
GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 4
HARTOLDMON0008405
1 discussions within Monsanto about the
2 conclusions of Dr. Risebrough's work?
3 A . No .
4 Q. Do you recollect ever having been
5 a participant in any discussions of -- at
6 Monsanto with respect to the possible effects
7 of Dr. Risebrough's work on the sale of PCB
8 about products?
9 A . No .
10 Q. Do you recollect ever having been
1 1 a participant in discussions at Monsanto with
1 2 respect t o the p o s s i b 1 e e f f e c t s o f the work
1 3 of Widraa r k and Jens e n on the s a 1 e o f P C B 1 4 products ? 1 5 A . No .
:
l !
16
Q Doc tor a re you f a m i 1 i a r with the
j
1 7 term the Yu s h o i n c i dent? 1 8 A . Can you spell that ? 1 9 Q . Y-u - s - h - o .
1 1
| iil
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2 0 A . No .
2 1 Q Are y ou , or do you r e c ollect ever 2 2 learning whether PCB-based oi 1 s w ere believed
2 3 to have contaminated cooking oil in Japan?
2 4 A. Yes, that, I do recall.
2 5 Q. And what do you recollect in
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connection with the possible contamination to
2 which I just referred?
3 MR. ZIMMER: You said PCB-based
4 oils?
5 MR . TALLON: Yes .
6 A. All I recall is, there was an
7 incident, there, involving cooking oil, I
8 believe it was -- I don't know what it was,
9 the type of oil, and -- I guess rice, and I
1 0 guess a contamination problem where quite a
1 1 number of people were affected, but beyond
1 2 that, I can't -- I never got involved with
1 3 that. I don't even, at this point, have no
1 4 idea of what was involved.
1 5 BY MR. TALLON:
^
1 6 Q. Let me show a document bearing
1 7 productionnumbers TRAN 058726 and 727 and
1 8 ask if you can identify it.
1 9 (Plaintiff's Deposition
2 0 Exhibit 293 marked for
2 1 identification.)
2 2 A. Can I identify it?
2 3 BY MR. TALLON:
2 4 Q. Yes.
2 5 A . No .
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1 Q D o you recognize the handwriting? 2 A . I t i s n ' t mine.
3 Q I t i s not yours.
4 A . I t i s not mine.
5 Q D o you recognize whose it is?
6 A . No , I don't. 7 Q Do you know, Dr. Keller, whether
8 PCB- based product involved in the cooking
9 i n c i dent that you do recall was
1 0 Therminol?
1 1 A . I don't recall it.
12
MR. ZIMMER:
I'll object
1 3 belatedly, that it assumes facts not in
1 4 evidence.
1 5 BY MR . TALLON:
1 6 Q. I take it from your answer, Dr.
1 7 Keller,that you don't recollect ever having
1 8 personally been involved in any investigation
1 9 of the cooking oil incident that we've
2 0 referred to?
2 1 A. I have no recollection ofthat.
2 2 Q. Doctor, do you know whether it's
2 3 fair to state that each Aroclor consisted of
2 4 a mixture of biphenyls?
2 5 THE WITNESS: May I have the
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1 question come back to me again?
2 THE COURT REPORTER:
3 "Q. Doctor, do you know whether
4 it's fair to state that each Aroclor
5 consisted of a mixture of biphenyls?"
6 MR. ZIMMER: You mean Aroclor in a 1
7 particular series, or any Aroclor at all?
8
MR. TALLON: Right, any.
,
9 THE WITNESS: And you mean, I 1 0 think, in your statement, chlorinated
j
I !
1 1 biphenyls.
;
1 2 MR. TALLON: Right, I do.
13
THE WITNESS: Please read back in
;
1 4 the --
1 5 THE COURT REPORTER:
!I
16
"Q. Doctor, do you know whether
:
l
i
1 7 it's fair to state that each Aroclor
i !
18
consisted
of a mixture of biphenyls?"
i
19
A. I think that's a fair statement;
|
2 0 chlorinated biphenyls.
2 1 BY MR. TALLON:
2 2 Q. Now let me be sure I understood
2 3 your answer. Is it fair to say that each
2 4 Aroclor consisted of a mixture of different
2 5 chlorinated biphenyls?
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HARTOLDMON0008409
1 A . Yes.
2 Q. Is it correct to say that Araclor
3 was a trade name used by Monsanto?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Doctor, do you recollect ever
6 learning whether tests were conducted for the
7 presence of Aroclor 1242 in the environment?
8 MR . ZIMMER: By whom?
9 MR . TALLON: By any Monsanto
1 0 personnel.
,
11
A.
I think that was done by Monsanto
|
1 2 personnel at some point in time, perhaps
:
1 3 around plant sites or such, but I can't give
1 4 you a recollection of anymore than that.
1 5 BY MR. TALLON:
j
16
Q. Is it your present belief that
j
1 7 Aroclor 1242 does persist in the environment? !
1 8 A. Presentbelief?
1 9 Q. Right now, today. 2 0 A. I don't think it does.
; j
2 1 Q. Do you think that the more highly
2 2 chlorinated components of Aroclor 1242
2 3 persist in the environment?
2 4 MR. ZIMMER: Wait. What are the
2 5 more highly chlorinated components of Aroclor
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HARTOLDMON0008410
1 1 2 4 2, Counsel?
2 BY MR. TALLON: 3 Q. Can you answer thequestion? 4 MR. ZIMMER: No, he's not going to 5 answer it until we get that straightened out. 6 MR. TALLON: Reread the question. 7 THE COURT REPORTER: 8 "Q. Do you think that the more 9 highly chlorinated components of Aroclor 1242 1 0 persist in the environment?" 1 1 MR. ZIMMER: The question assumes 1 2 facts not in evidence, lacks foundation, 1 3 because we haven't talked about that at all, 1 4 so I'm asking you to define what you mean by 1 5 the more highly chlorinated components of 1 6 Aroclor 1242. 1 7 BY MR. TALLON: 1 8 Can you answer the question, Dr 1 9 Keller? 2 0 MR. ZIMMER: He's not going to do 2 1 that until you do. 2 2 MR. TALLON: I just want to be 2 3 clear for the record that you are instructing 2 4 him not to answer. Is that what you are 2 5 doing, Mr. Zimmer?
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-t
X
MR . ZIMMER:
That's what I'm
2 doing, until you adequately lay the
3 foundation through his testimony for it.
4 MR. TALLON: We'll go back through
5 it.
6 BY MR. TALLON:
7 Q. Is it your testimony, Dr. Keller,
8 that each Aroclor consists of differently
9 chlorinated biphenyls? 1 0 A. Please read that back.
!
| !
1 1 THE COURT REPORTER:
j
1 2 " Q. Is it your testimony, Dr.
1 3 Keller, that each Aroclor consists of 1 4 differently chlorinated biphenyls?" 15 A . Yes .
1 i
i ;
i
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1 6 BY MR. TALLON:
1 7 Q. And are some of the biphenyls '
1 8 found in, for example, Aroclor 1242 more
1 9 highly chlorinated than others?
l :
| j
2 0 A. Yes.
2 1 Q. And is it your understanding that
2 2 the more highly chlorinated components of
2 3 Aroclor 1242 persist in the environment?
2 4 A. If Aroclor 1242 contains five and
2 5 six and higher chlorinated biphenyls, yes.
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Let me show you a document D r . Keller. Do you lack understanding as to whether Aroclor 1242 contains more highly chlorinated biphenyls or do you not recollect?
A. Well, I really don't -- I guess I don't follow your question , "lack the understanding of." Can you expand on
Q . Do you know? MR. TALLON: Hang on for a second. (Discussion off the record.) MR. TALLON: Excuse us. (Recess) THE WITNESS: May I comment out of
the last discussion on -- BY MR. TALLON:
Q Yes, sure. A . -- and, perhaps , clarify? Q Yes, please A . This is out of me, not out of my 1 , now.
MR. ZIMMER: Do you want to wait and let him ask you a question? Or d o you feel a need to explain your answer.
THE WITNESS : Well, I ' d like t o
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explain the answer, because I think we're
getting into some semantics and things where
we're each saying something a little
different and not quite --
BY MR. TALLON:
Q. That needs to be avoided, so if
you can help.
A. All right, we're talking about
Aroclor 1242 and you are talking about
chlorinated biphenyl isomers at different
levels in that product.
Q Mm-hmm .
A. And the earlier query that you
made of me on this this morning, I believe,
was are there higher chlorinated biphenyls in
Aroclor 1242, and we were talking a very
narrow time frame at that point, if you
recall, that was '67-' 68 and I believe my
answer back to you was no. I think that was
the answer, but I'm not sure, and if I
answeredno --
and I thinkthat's the
way I
answered -- I was answering in the context
that atthat point
in time, that was, that
was the right answer. We weren't aware of
it .
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1 Q I see. 2 A. Now, as time went on, however, and
3 we got this methodology we're talking about
4 and we moved into more sophisticated studies
5 for a product, this would be like early
6 Seven ties, then we could really take apart
7 the i s o m e r ,. the mix of Aroclor 1 2 4 2, then you
8 could show that there would be a trace amount
9 of higher chlorinated, say five and six
1 0 chlorinated impurities or whatever you want
1 1 to call it, in 1242. So if you say, well, is
1 2 Aroclor 1242 -- I forget how you put it --
1 3 stable in the environment or in the
1 4 environment, would you find it in the
1 5 environment, you would -- the main principal
1 6 part of Aroclor 1242 you would not likely
1 7 find it, because it's quite biodegradable.
1 8 If there's a trace amount of impurity, you
1 9 perhaps would, could find some.
2 0 Now, the problem is, with that
2 1 trace amount of five and six chlorinated
2 2 biphenyls, finding it in the environment
2 3 doesn't mean it came from Aroclor 1242 or any
24
other product.
You can't be sure which of
2 5 this 1200 series it might have come from.
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1 The only way you could know that is to know
2
that the fullblend of isomers were
still
3 intact in whatever you are looking at. Now,
4 I don't know if I've confused or --
5 Q . No, I don't think so.
6 Is it possible, using the GC/mass
7 system, to test a sample and determine which
8 Aroclor is present in that sample, if any one
9 is?
1 0 MR. ZIMMER: What sort of sample?
1 1 MR. TALLON: I just want to use
1 2 the word "sample," because --
1 3 A. You mean like a river sample out
1 4 here?
1 5 BY MR. TALLON:
1 6 Q. Sure, river mud.
17 A . Or water, whatever.
1 8 Q. Certainly.
1 9 A. I think you are hung up now -
2 0 excuse me, I'm not trying to lecture you; we
2 1 are hung up. You referred "Is it
2 2 possible" -- could we play back your
2 3 question, if you will, please?
2 4 THE COURT REPORTER:
2 5 "Is it possible, using the GC/mass
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system, to test a sample and determine which
Aroclor is present in that sample, if any one
is?"
A. It's possible to determine which
Aroclor if there has been no degradation of
all the components of that product, because
you would get a typical envelope relative to
the mixture that's in there. If it's
decomposed out in the environment, some, no
longer have a characteristic envelope because
some of the products have disappeared here.
Now, it might have been shifted over to look
like a higher chlorinated species, of Aroclor
product. I'm
just trying to point-out the
complexity of this that you can't go by what
the residue is unless there's been no
degradation of the full mix of ingredients,
and say that was the product involved.
BY MR. TALLON:
Q. If the components have not
degraded, would a test such as the one you
just described yield an identifiable
signature --
A . Yes.
Q. -- of a particular Aroclor?
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-X1 A . Yes. Most cases it would, yes. 2 Q. If some but not all of the 3 components have degraded, is it possible to 4 determine with a reasonable degree of 5 scientific certainty what Aroclor is being 6 depicted by the test results? 7 A. It could be possible if you 8 absolutely knew the degradation conditions so 9 that you knew that you had the product held 1 0 at a certain temperature, whatever, and you 1 1 had, you had studied this and had a profile 1 2 of what happens to that as a typical profile 1 3 to compare the next one to.. But if you don't 1 4 know what condition s there are, whereby 1 5 degradation might s peed up one time, go down 1 6 another, chemical around that would change 1 7 it, then you couldn't be sure. 1 8 Q. Are there factors other than 1 9 temperature which have an influence on 2 0 degradation? 2 1 A. Well, I'm not a good one to answer 2 2 that to you, because I -- temperature would 2 3 be a factor if there were bacteria, 2 4 microorganisms, of course, that could be a 2 5 factor, perhaps light, ultraviolet light, and
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1_ ail combinations of all these. That's why it
2 could vary quite a bit.
3 Q Is time a factor? 4 A . Time is a factor.
5 Q Are you familiar with the term 6 dichlorobiphenyl?
7 A . Well, I know the term but I'm not
8 really familiar --
9 Q What about trich1orobipheny1?
10
A.
Mm-hmm .
(Nods head in affirmative
1 1 manner) .
1 2 Q Are you familiar with that term?
13
A.
Yes.
Yes.
1 4 Q. What about tetrach1orobipheny 1 ?
1 5 A. Yes.
1 6 Q. And pentach1orobipheny1?
1 7 A . Yes.
1 8 Q. As a chemist, what is the
1 9 significance -- or, not the significance, but
2 0 what is the distinction to you among the six
2 1 phenyls I have just identified, or excuse me ,
22 the four phenyls I have just identified?
2 3 A. As a chemist, one, it means the
2 4 higher chlorinated species are going to be
2 5 more, probably more insoluble , like in water .
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1 As you go up in chlorination level. 2 Q . Does -- is pentach1orobipheny1 3 more highly chlorinated than 4 dichlorobiphenyl? 5 A. More chlorinated than -- 6 Q Di . 7 A. Oh, yes. Penta would be five. 8 Q. And di would be two. 9 A. Right. 1 0 Q. And trich1orobipheny 1 ? 1 1 A. Three. 1 2 Q. Tetra would be four. 1 3 A. Right. 1 4 Q. And so forth. 1 5 A . Mm-hmm. 1 6 Q. Are there any higher than eight? 1 7 A. No. Well -1 8 Q. That would be hexachlorobiphenyl; 1 9 correct? 2 0 A. Could be ten, theoretically. 2 1 Q. Now, to yourknowledge, did 2 2 Aroclor 1242 include components of 2 3 pentachlorobiphenyl? 2 4 A. Today's knowledge, or back in the 2 5 period we're talking about?
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1 Q Does it make a difference to you 2 when? 3 A . Yes, it does. 4 Q . Are you aware , today, whether 5 A r o c 1 o r 1242 includes pentach1orobiphen 6 A . I am aware of when I was las t 7 i n v o 1 v e d with this work, which started t o 8 phase out in the early Seventies, that there 9 was a trace amount of penta in 1242. 1 0 Q. And when for the first time did 1 1 you become aware that there was a trace 1 2 amount of pentach 1 orobipheny1 present in the 1 3 composition of Aroclor 1242? 1 4 A . When , did you say? 1 5 Q Yes , when? 1 6 A . This would be early Seven ties. I 1 7 can't do better than that. 1 8 Q Is - - when you used the t e r m 1 9 "trace amount," to what do you -- wh at 2 0 quantity do you intend to refer? 2 1 A . A few percent. Could be maybe as 2 2 high as a few percent. 2 3 Q. Are you using the term "a few" to 2 4 mean two or three? 2 5 A. Two or three.
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Q. Do you know whether Aroclor 1242
2 is five to ten pentach1orobipheny 1 ?
3 A. Well, that sounds higher than I
4 think I remember it, but I guess it's
5 possible. I don't -- I really can't recall
6 that information.
7 Q. Well, let me show you a document;
8
actually, this appearsto be
two copies of
9 the same document, bearing production number
1 0 TRAN 044212, dated -- which appears to be a
1 1 memorandum from Cumming Paton to W. R.
1 2 Richard dated September 27th, 1971.
1 3 MR. TALLON: And for the record,
1 4 I'll note that in the upper right-hand
1 5 c o r n e r , there ' s a n o t a t i o n appearing t o read
1 6 "cc: R . K e 11 e r ,, Scott Tuck e r . "
1 7 A . I t ' s pencil e d in ; a handwri 11 e n
1 8 n o t a t ion
1 9 MR. TALLON: Dr. Keller, the court
2 0 reporter correctly notes that we should mark
2 1 this exhibit.
2 2 (Plaintiff's Deposition
2 3 Exhibit 294 marked for
2 4 identification. )
2 5 BY MR. TALLON:
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Q - No- w t_h___a__t the court rep. orter has 2 marked it, please take a moment and review 3 that. 4 We'll note for the record, Dr. 5 Keller, that you have before you a one-page 6 document, TRAN 044212 which has been marked 7 as Exhibit 294, and I'll ask you whether you 8 recollect having seen that before. 9 (Witness peruses said 1 0 document . ) 1 1 A. I have not seen this, to my 1 2 recollection. 1 3 Q. Does review of that document 1 4 refresh your recollection in any respect as 1 5 to the constituent chlorinated biphenyls of 1 6 Aroclor 1242? 1 7 A. Yes, I think this bears on the 1 8 point I was making earlier. 1 9 Q. Is it correct to say, Dr. Keller, 2 0 that Aroclor 1242 has between five and ten 2 1 percent -- is between five and ten percent 2 2 composed of pentach1orobipheny1? 2 3 A. I presume that's the intent of 2 4 this memo, but that's a presumption because 2 5 beyond that, I can't -- I don't know.
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1 MR. ZIMMER: He's not asking you
2 to presume the intent of the memo, he's
3 asking you whether that refreshes your
4 recollection.
5 BY MR. TALLON:
6 Q. Do you know whether or not Aroclor
7 1242 contains between five to ten percent
8 pentachlorobiphenyl?
9 A. Idon't know; personally.
1 0 Q. If you were able to look within
1 1 the records of Monsanto, where would you look
12
todetermine
the precise constituents,
1 3 constituency of Aroclor 1242?
1 4 A. Where would I look?
1 5 Q. Yes. Is there a manual that you
1 6 would look at or testing results?
1 7 A. Today,or anytime?
1 8 Q. Well, if -- at the time that you
1 9 were working.
20
A. I wouldn't know where to go.
.
2 1 Q. You wouldn't know where to go
2 2 today?
2 3 A . No
2 4 Q. But if you were still working at
2 5 Monsanto in the mid Seventies, where would
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you have gone o look for such information? 2 A. I would, I would think the 3 Business Group would be a repository of that 4 kind of information. Responsible for the 5 product because after all, it is composition 6 oftheproduct. 7 Q . Let me -- do you recollect, Dr. 8 Keller , whether at any time in the late 9 1960's, Scott Tucker determined that Aroclor 1 0 1242 had been found in tests of sediment or 1 1 water? 1 2 A. I don't recall that. 1 3 Q. Let me show you, then, a document 1 4 that we ' 11 mark as the next exhibit in or d e r 1 5 It's a o n e - page doc u m e n t be aring producti o n 1 6 number TRAN 009858, and aft er it's marked l 1 7 I'd ask you to just t a k e a moment and rev i e w 18 it . 1 9 (PI a i n t iff' s Deposition 2 0 Exh i b i t 2 9 5 marked for 2 1 identification. ) 2 2 BY MR. TALLON: 2 3 Q. Doctor, do you have any 2 4 recollection of having received this 2 5 memorandum or a copy of this memorandum in
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1 1969?
2 A . No.
3 Q. Do you recollect whether Mr.
4 Tucker performed any tests on sediment and
5 water from Snow Creek and ascertained the
6 presence of Aroclor 1242, whether or not
7 you've seen this memo before?
8
MR. ZIMMER:
Calls for
9 speculation.
1 0 A. I know he was doing work of this
1 1 type at that time, but that's all.
1 2 BY MR. TALLON:
1 3 Q. Does Monsanto have a pi ant at a
1 4 location known as Snow Creek?
II
1 5 A. I don't know what Snow Creek is.
1 6 Q. Okay, that answers that
I!
17
Doctor, we need to refe r back for
Ii
1 8 just a moment to an exhibit that w e looked at
1 9 a little earlier, and specifically , I refer
2 0 you now to Exhibit 291.
2 1 Understanding that you do not
2 2 recollect this particular document , I simply
2 3 want to ascertain whether you have any
2 4 understanding of the phrase in tha t memo that
2 5 states, "Work in our labs shows at least 13
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1 components in Arcelor 1242."
2 MR . ZIMMER: Calls for 3 speculation. 4 THE WITNESS: May I have the 5 question back, please, sir? 6 THE COURT REPORTER: 7 "Understanding that you do not 8 recollect this particular document, I simply 9 want to ascertain whether you have any 10 understanding of the phrase in that memo that 11 states , 'Work in our labs shows at least 13 1 2 components in Aroclor 1 2 4 2. ' " 1 3 A . Some unders tanding. 14 BY MR. TALLON: 1 5 Q. What is your understanding? 16 A. 11 says that chromatogram obtained 17 by Mons anto differs from that one, or those 1 8 obtained by Risebrough. 1 9 Q . Are you aware of any work done by 20 your labs or to put it another way, Monsanto 2 1 labs, determining that there were a t least 13 22 components of Aroclor 1242? 23 A . No . 24 MR . TALLON: Let me show you a 25 multipage exhibit, Doctor, which begins with
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i the production number TRAN 005799 and 2 proceeds through production number TRAN 3 007563. 4 (Plaintiff's Deposi t i o n 5 Exhibit 296 marked for 6 identification. ) 7 (Witness peruses sa i d 8 document.) 9 BY MR . TALLON: 1 0 Q Did you review that? 1 1 A . Yes. 1 2 Q Can you identify the doc ume n t 1 3 beginning with the first page, TRAN 005799? 1 4 A . This page (Indicating) ? 1 5 Q Yes. 1 6 A . Yes. 1 7 Q . And therefore, please id entify it. 1 8 A . This is a plan document out of the 1 9 Analytical C h e m istry Group of Appli e d 2 0 Sciences for support of toxicity testing, 2 1 primarily. 2 2 Q. Did you play any role in the 2 3 preparation of the first page, numbered 5799? 2 4 A. I'm hesitating because I'm not 2 5 certain. If Scott Tucker was a group leader
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on that date in '69
and that's somewhere
in that period -- he would have taken the
lead in preparing this. If he was not, I
could have taken the lead. But it was
between the two of us.
Q. By "that date in 1969," you are
referring to January 14th, 1969, the date
which appears in the upper right-hand corner?
A . Yes.
Q. Do you have a present
understanding as to the purpose for which
this chart was prepared?
A . It was to assure u s that we had
resources adequate to take c are o f what was
being generated in coming ba c k out o f
toxicity studies.
Q. And what exactly does the chart
show?
A. Well, it shows when materials are
going to be available for analyses. That's
my best recollection and interpretation of
this.
Q. For example, does the chart
indicate that Aroclor loaded chicken
materials would be available in the end o f
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1 March 1969? 2 A . That's my best recollection. 3 Q. Did you have responsibility for 4 overseeing the project or projects depicted 5 on the first page of this exhibit? 6 A. Scott Tucker would have had that. 7 Q. And did he report to you in that 8 connection? 9 A . Yes. 1 0 Q. Do you have a present 1 1 understanding of the -- whether there was a 1 2 request to your group which initiated the 1 3 project or projects depicted on this chart? 1 4 A. Yes. 1 5 Q. Was there a request? 1 6 A. To my best recollection, yes. 1 7 Q What was the request? 1 8 A . From the M e d i cal Department to 1 9 provide support for the i r toxicity studies 2 0 Q. And in general terms, Dr. Keller, 2 1 what support to the Medical Department is 2 2 depicted on this chart? 2 3 A. It shows that the Analytical Group 2 4 will provide analyses needed for the 2 5 materials shown, as schedules.
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1 Q. Just by way of example, then, does 2 the notation "Aroclor loaded chicken" mean 3 that your group was doing tests on loaded 4 chickens? 5 MR. ZIMMER: What's a loaded 6 chicken, Counsel? 7 MR . TALLON: I wish I could say. 8 A. I don' t recall now . I really 9 can't recall well enough to help interpret 10 that. 11 BY MR. TALLON: 12 Q. And does that mean you are not 1 3 sure of the meaning of "loaded chicken"? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. Does 1ooking a t the following 16 pages , the typed pages, assist you in any way 17 in interpreting the information on the first
18 page o the exhibit?
1 9 A. Well, it simply points out, it's a 20 work plan showing resources, manpower, target 21 dates , job, and some indication of why it has 2 2 to be done. 2 3 MR. ZIMMER: Try and answer his 2 4 question, though, which is, does reading the 25 typewritten pages assist you in interpreting
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1 the first page which you've indicated you 2 could not do? 3 A . No . 4 BY MR. TALLON: 5 Q. Do you recall, Dr. Keller, whe ther 6 in 1 9 6 9 it was one of the proj ec ts undertaken 7 by your group to develop a technique for 8 identification and measurement of c ombus tion 9 products, simula ting the burn i ng of NCR 10 paper? 11 A . Yes. 1 2 Q And do you recall whe ther such a 13 technique was developed? 1 4 A . Yes. 1 5 Q. Was one? 1 6 A . It's my best recollection one was 1 7 developed, yes. 1 8 Q. And what technique was that? 19 A . I can't give you details. It was 20 a burning c ombus tio n technique of laboratory 2 1 scale with collection of c ombu s tion products 2 2 and s ubs equ ent analyses . 23 Q. Was part of the testing to burn 2 4 NCR carbonless carbon paper? 2 5 A . It's my recollection that was a
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1 strong justification for doing it, yes.
2
, Q.
Were you able to determine or to
3 ascertain whether incineration was a source
4 of environmental contamination in
5 relationship to the s tudie s you'v e just
6 described or the technique you've just
7 described?
8 THE WITNESS: Please read that
9 back.
10 THE COURT REPORTER:
11 "Q. Were you able to determine or 1 2 to ascertain whether incineration was a
1 3 source of environmental contamination in 1 4 relationship to the studies you've just
1 5 described or the technique you've just 16 described?"
17 A. It's my best recollection that the
1 8 r e s u1t s of those laboratory studies indicated 19 incineration could be a probiem under certain
20 conditions.
2 1 Q By "could be a problem," do you 2 2 mean was a source or potential source of 2 3 environment al contamination? 2 4 A. Yes. 2 5 Q. And under what circumstances was
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* that a concern? 2 A. Under certain conditions of
incineration or burning. I can't give you 4 anymore than that. I don't know. 5 Q. Do you recollect whether the 6 conditions that caused the concern were 7 uncontrolled incineration? 8 A. No, I don't recall that. 9 Q. Do you recall whether the 1 0 conditions that caused the concern were 1 1 uncontrolled disposal of the residue of the 1 2 incineration? 1 3 A . No. I don't recall that. 1 4 Q Doctor , do you have knowledge as 1 5 to who drafted th e typewritten pages which 1 6 const i t u t e the pi ans annexed to the chart 1 7 that forms part o f Exhibit 296? 1 8 A . These plans? 1 9 Q Yes. 2 0 A . Well, as I commented earlier, it 2 1 was a joint effort between Scott Tucker and 2 2 myself, and I don't know who took the lead in 2 3 that. I just don't remember. 2 4 Q. Were these plans typed up as part 2 5 of the regular business of your department?
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i. MR. ZIMMER: Calls for 2 speculation. 3 A. The regular business of our 4 department would be handled on a variety of 5 plans of this type, so it's consistent with 6 our standard operating procedure, but it may 7 not be the exact format used on all projects. 8 BY MR. TALLON: 9 Q. Is it fair to say, then, that it 1 0 was part of the regular business of your 1 1 department to commit plans with respect to 1 2 any projects to paper? 1 3 A. Yes; large projects. 1 4 Q. And were the projects depicted in 1 5 these plans which you h ave before you 1 6 considered by you to be large products -- 1 7 projects?
18
1 9 Q. Doctor, if you would look at Page 2 0 TRAN 005800, it's the first page immediately 2 1 following the handwritten chart. There's a 2 2 ranking of priority 1 through 4 on that page 2 3 and then continuing on the next page. Do you 2 4 have any recollection of, to the reason why 2 5 the information listed after item 1 has
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1 greater priority than the information listed 2 after item 3? Or let me strike that. 3 Let me ask you another question. 4 Was the project, or job identified following 5 item 1, of a greater priority than that 6 following item 3, or any subsequent item? 7 MR . ZIMMER: Lacks foundation 8 calls for specu 1 a t i o n . 9 MR . ZIMMER: And remember, he 1 0 not asking you to interpret the document 1 1 he's asking if you recall that. 1 2 A. No, I don'trecall that. 1 3 BY MR . TALLON: 1 4 Q. Just checking for a moment, item 1 5 4, the product -- products, actually -- 1 6 identified there are Aroclor 1242, 1254 and 1 7 1260. Do you see that? 1 8 A. Yes. 1 9 Q. And it states that a job or 2 0 project was to develop sensitive (ppb) GC/EC, 2 1 GC/microcoulometer and GC/mass methods for 2 2 Aroclor products in environmental manifests: 2 3 One, water; two, soil; three, wildlife? Do 2 4 you see that? 2 5 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Do you recollect that such a
2 project was undertaken?
3 A . No.
4 Q. Do you know what a microcoulometer
5 is?
6 A. It's a detector used with gas
7 chromatography to measure components being
8 separated. I'm not familiar with the
9 technical explanation of it.
1 0 Q. I'm sorry, you are not familiar
1 1 with what?
1 2 A. I'm not familiar with the
1 3 technical explanation of it.
1 4 Q. Oh. Do you recall whether it was
1 5 the justification for any job or project
1 6 ongoing in your group in 1969 to determine
1 7 the environmental contamination to protect a
1 8 product position with the customer?
1 9 A . No .
20
Q.
Referring specifically to
the
2 1 justification found under Item 4 on that same
2 2 page, do you have any information who the
2 3 author of the words appearing there is?
2 4 A . No .
2 5 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Tucker had
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1 anyone working for him whose job it was at 2 that time to prepare plans such as the one 3 we're looking at here? 4 A . No . 5 Q. Do you know whether that was part 6 of Mr. Tucker's job? 7 A. To prepare plans? 8 Q . Yes, such as this. 9 A. Yes. It could have been. 1 0 Q. Was it someone's job other than 1 1 Mr. Tucker? 1 2 A . No 1 3 Q. Did there come a time, Dr. Keller, 1 4 when, in the course of your work at Monsanto, 1 5 you were asked to do testing with respect to 1 6 substitute products for aroclors? 1 7 A . Yes . 1 8 Q. And approximately when do you 1 9 recall being asked to do such work for the 2 0 first time? 2 1 A. Well, best recollection, it would 2 2 late '69 or 1970. 2 3 Q. And what is it that you recall 2 4 that you were requested or asked to do? 2 5 A. To monitor work directed toward
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1 new products, in terms of determining 2 composition and materials of interest for the 3 process product deve1opment. 4 MR. TALLON: What was the second 5 part of that answer? Would you read that 6 back? 7 THE COURT REPORTER: 8 "A. To monitor work directed 9 toward new products, in terms of de termining 1 0 coiposition and materials of interest for the
11 process produc t development."
1 2 BY MR. TALLON:
1 3 Q. And what was involved in your
1 4 monitoring function. Doctor?
.
15 A. Use of the gas chromatography and
16 GC/mass system techniques.
17 Q. And what else, if anything else,
1 8 was involved with respect to the process
1 9 development aspect?
20 A. I don't recall anything else.
21 Q. Do you recall participating in any
22 work in connection with reformulation of
23 products?
24
- A.
No.
25 Q. Do you recall whether Ar o c1o r 1242
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1 was ever proposed to take the place of other 2 aroclors in reformulated products? 3 A . No. 4 Q. Do you have any present 5 recollection of having discussed with Mr. 6 Tucker replacement formulations for Pydraul 7 AC or Pydraul 625? 8 A . No . 9 Q. Do you have any present 1 0 recollection of Mr. Tucker having recommended 1 1 to you against using Aroclor 1242 in 1 2 replacement formulations? 1 3 A . No . 1 4 MR. TALLON: Let me show you a 1 5 document, Doctor, which we'll ask the court 1 6 reporter to mark as the next exhibit in order 1 7 and it bears production numbers TRAN 022055 1 8 and 56. 1 9 (Plaintiff's Deposition 2 0 Exhibit 297 marked for 2 1 identification. ) 2 2 (Witness peruses said 2 3 document. ) 2 4 BY MR . TALLON: 2 5 Q. Doctor, does reviewing any portion
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1 of that exhibit, including page 2, refresh
2 your recollection in any way as to
3 communications between you and Mr. Tucker
4 about the use of Aroclor 1242 in replacement
5 formulations?
6 A . No .
7 Q Doctor, do you k n o w the meaning of 8 the term "refractory" a s it r e 1 a t e s t o
9 biodegradabi1ity or the rate of
1 0 biodegradation?
1 1 A. I think I do.
1 2 Q. Would you tell me what your
1 3 definition of that term is?
1 4 A. It means it's hard to biodegrade.
1 5 Q. Okay, do you know if that term was
1 6 ever inuse at Monsanto in the early
1 7 Seventies? That is to say, "refractory."
1 8 MR. ZIMMER: By anyone?
1 9 BY MR. TALLON:
2 0 Q Did you ever use it?
21
A.
Not to my re c o 1 1 e c t i o n .
I
2 2 can't -- I can never re call using i t .
2 3 MR . TALLON: Okay . We can break
2 4 here.
2 5 MR . ZI MM E R: Okay
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1 (Whereupon, at 4:55 p.mthe 2 deposition was recessed.) 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
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