Document 71OopDn2OwYra2ey8Zvyk0zOo

V IK THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OP WEST VIRGINIA CHARLESTON, WEST VIRGINIA JAMES M, ADKINS, Administrator of the Betate of Ralph E. Adkins, Deceased, et al, Plaintiffs, 7a, MONSANTO COMPANY, a Delaware Corporation, Defendant. ) ) ) } ) ) } Ko. 81-2098 ) ) ) ) ) Dopo.ltIon of WILLIAM J. MC CARVILLE tak.n on behalf of tho plaintiff*. Reporter: K. Joy Springer Ja m e s M ay R eporting S ervice C E R T IF IE D S H O R T H A N D R E P O R TE R S R.R. 2 - BO X 65 ED W ARO SVILLE. IL L IN O IS 62025 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF WEST VIRGINIA CHARLESTON, WEST VIRGINIA JAMES M. ADKINS, Administrator . of the Estate of Ralph E. Adkins, Deceased, et al, Plaintiffs, vs. MONSANTO COMPANY, a Delaware Corporation, Defendant. ) ) ) ) ) ) ) No. 81-2098 ) ) ) ) ) APPEARANCES: Paul L. Pratt, Esq., Messrs. Bowles, McDavid, Graff & Love, by Charles M. Love, III, Esq., For the Plaintiffs; For the Defendant. IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED by and between, counsel for the plaintiffs and counsel for the defendant that the deposition of WILLIAM J. MC CARVILLE may be taken pursuant to Rule 26(a) of the Federal Rules of Civil Pro cedure, on behalf of the plaintiffs, on July 12, 1983,. at the Radisson Hotel, Room 215, 9th Street and Convention Plaza, St. Louis, Missouri, before M. JOY SPRINGER, a Notary Public within and for the County of Madison, State of JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E 1 Illinois; that the issuance of notice and dedimus is 2 waived, and that this deposition may be taken with the 3 same force and effect as if all Federal rules and statutory 4 requirements had been complied with. 5 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED that 6 any and all objections to all or any part of this deposi7 tion except objections as to form of the questions asked 8 or answers given, are hereby reserved and may be raised on 9 the trial of this cause; and that the signature of the 10 deponent is not waived. 11 12 - _ 13 14 * 15 WILLIAM J. MC CARVILLE. 16 produced, sworn and examined on behalf of the plaintiffs, 17 deposes and says as follows: * 18 EXAMINATION 19 20 BY MR. PRATT: * - 21 (Whereupon the reporter marked Plaintiff's -i 2 2 Deposition Exhibit #306 (Monsanto's I.D. 23 #831599*0, consisting of one page; Plaintiff's 24 Deposition Exhibit #307 (Monsanto's I.D. 25 #8316326 and 8316327), consisting of two pages; JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E <X W 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit #308 (Monsanto's 1.13. 8320684 through 8320693, inclusive), con sisting of ten pages; Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit #309 (Monsanto's I.D. #8321738), con sisting of one page; Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit #310 (Monsanto's I.D. #8322238, 8322244 and 8322245), consisting of three pages; Plain tiff's Deposition Exhibit #311 (Monsanto's I.D. #8322873 and 8322874), consisting of two pages; Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit #312 (Monsanto's I.D. #8331220 through 8331224, inclusive), con sisting of five pages; Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit #313 (Monsanto's I. D. #233695), con sisting of one page; Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit #314 (Monsanto's I.D. #8323203 through 8323205, inclusive), consisting of three pages Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit #315 (Monsanto*! I.D. #8331253), consisting of one page; Plain tiff's Deposition Exhibit #316 (Monsanto's I.D #8323234 and 8323235), consisting of two pages Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit #317 (Monsanto* I.D. #8323245 through 8323248, inclusive), con sisting of four pages; Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit #318 (Monsanto's I.D. #236206 through 236208, inclusive), consisting of three pages; JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G S E R V IC E Plaintiffs Deposition Exhibit #319 (Monsanto's I.D. #231753 through 231756, inclusive), con sisting of four pages; Plaintiff s Deposition Exhibit #320 (Monsanto's I.D. #238212 and 238213), consisting of two pages; Plaintiffs Deposition Exhibit #321 (Monsanto's I.D. #8323313 through 8323315, inclusive), consisting of three pages; Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit #322 (Monsanto's I.D, #8323318 through 8323320, Inclusive), con sisting of three pages; Plaintiffs Deposition Exhibit #323 (Monsanto's I.D. #8323328 and 8323329), consisting of two pages; Plaintiffs " Deposition Exhibit #824 (Monsanto's I.D. #8321780) consisting of one page; Plaintiffs Deposition Exhibit #325 (Monsanto's I.D. #8326071), con sisting of one page; Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit #326 (Monsanto's I.D. #8326129 through 8326142, irtalusive, and 8326149 through 8326160, Inclusive), consisting of twenty-six pages; Plaintiffs Deposition Exhibit #327 (Monsanto's I.D. #8324039 and 8324040), consisting of two pages; Plaintiffs Deposition Exhibit #328 (Monsanto's I.D. #8324372), consisting of one page; Plaintiffs Deposition Exhibit #329 (Monsanto's I.D. #232333), consisting of one page. JAMES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E 1Q 2 A. 3a 4A 5 Missouri. 6Q 7A 8a 9 from high 10 A 11 a 12 you do? 13 A 14 a 15 Navy? 16 A 17 Q 18 A 19 Q 20 A 21 Q, 22 A 23 over one s 24 to college 25 Q Tell us your name, will you, sir? William J. McCarville. And where do you live? I live at 12 Ridge Crest Court, Chesterfield, And how old a man are you? Fifty-four. Okay. You would have graduated what year L? 19*5. After you got out of high school what did Went in the Navy. Okay. And how long did you serve in the At that time just one year. Got out in 19^6? Uh huh (yes). Okay. What did you do then? Went to college. Okay. .The fall of ^ 6 ? Actually, I had done one semester, a little Where did you go to college? JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E 1 A. St. Mary's College In Winona, Minnesota. 2 Q And did you get a bachelor's degree from 3 there? 4 A. A Bachelor of Science In Chemistry. 5 Q What year? 6 A 19^8. 7 G Would that have been in the spring? 8 A Yes. 9 G What did you do next? 10 A I went to work as a conductor on the 11 Elevated in Chicago. 12 G On what, sir? The El? 13 A Yeah. 14 G How long did you do that? 15 A Until I got enough money to go back to 16 school. 17 G Okay. When was that? 18 A In f*J9. 19 G Pall of 149? 20 A Uh huh (yes). 21 Q Where did you go to school? 22 A I went to the University of Detroit. 23 G Did you get a master's? 24 A A master's degree in Organic Chemistry. 25 G What year did you get that? JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E ` 1 1 2 3 A 1950. Q What did you do following that? A I went to the University of Michigan and 4 worked on my Ph.D. 5 Q And did you go straight through? 6 A No, sir. X got called back for Korea. 7 Q When did you get called back? 8 A February of 1952. 9 a So you had about two years on the Ph.D., 10 right? 11 A Right. 12 j 13 the Navy? All right. What type work did you do in- 14. A Well, I was attached to a medical research 15 unit. 1 Ci Okay. Were you a corpsman? 17 A No. X was an officer. 18 4 What were your duties as an officer? 19 A Standard duties, plu3 doing chemical researcl 20 21 - 22 Okay. Kow long were you in there, sir7 A Two years. Q. So you came back out in -- - if 23 24 A -- February of *5*1 Q Where were you stationed? 25 A Well, I was -stationed at the Naval Medical JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 Research Institute in Washington, D. C. I was transferred 2 to a research ship in Pusan and then I was transferred back 3 to Washington, D. C., where I was separated. 4 Q, Okay. What type of research were you doing 5 or were you Involved in? 6 A. Primarily I was working on an enzyme which 7 is affected by so-called nerve gases, acetylcholinesterase. 8 Q When you got out in February of !5*J, did 9 you go back to college? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And back to Michigan? 12 A Yes. - 13 When did you finish the doctorate? 14 A Finished in the summer of *55. 15 Q What was your thesis in? 16 A My major for doctorate was in pharmaceutical 17 chemistry. My thesis was on a series of, oh, compounds 18 that can be used for killing pain. 19 Q Okay, After 1955 where did you go? 20 A Went to work for Monsanto. 21 Q Okay. And that would have been what date? 22 A September. .... 23 Q And where did you go to work In the Monsanto 24 Company? 25 At that time the Central Research Division JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G S E R V IC E in Dayton, Ohio. ft ; ' How long were you there, sir? A. I was there until February of f58 ft Okay. What was your Job title? A. Research Chemist. a And what were your duties and responsibllitie A. X was doing work on some class of compound that could reflect Infrared radiation. ft Okay. After February of T58 where did you go? A. Washington, D. C. ft How long were you in Washington? A Until May of i960. f t What did you do in Washington? A I was Technical Representative for Monsantc to the agencies of the government. ft Did you have an office there? A YeB. ft Does Monsanto maintain offices there for that purpose today? A Yes. ft Okay. And what was your title when you first got there? A Technical Representative. ft Okay. What were your duties and responsi- JA M ES MAY R E PO R TIN G S ER V IC E 's-- y bilities? 2 Basically I was a resource link between the 3 ....Company .nd the agencies of the government. K?:J' " '***V,/ ac>';'o.r`*vi:* 4 Okay. Did you do any of your technical 5 representing to the government involving 2, *1,5 T? 6 A. No. 7 Q Okay. When did the government start buying 8 what they call Agent Orange, do you recall, from the govera- 9 ment? 10 A I don't recall specifically. 11 a Okay. And your duties, then, I takie-.iti^'' '' *." -.V** -y : * ';- **... 12 would be to represent the company in regard to various 13 chemicals that you're trying to sell the government? " 14 A No, no. No, that was specifically not in 15 the charter of that office. There were no sales made and 16 we didn't involve ourselves in any sales. 17 Q, Okay. What did you do -- 18 A Well, for example, worked with the Depart .19 ment of Ag. Sji getting the clearances for some new pesti- 20 cides that -w were making, herbicides. 21 Q Okay. After I960 where did you go? 22 A St. Louis. - 23 Q You been there since? 24 A Uh huh (yes). 25 Cl Now, if you will, let's go through .each one JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G S ER V IC E 1 of the positions that you had and tell me here a little 2 ^ h b o u t thet> 3 r :' ? \ a v s * Since here in St. Louis? 4 Q Yes. 5 A Well, I came here in I960. I went to the then Organic Chemicals Division as a Project Manager in the 7 Development Department, specifically, in the Fine Chemicals. 8 Q What do you mean hy fine chemicals? 9 A Oh, that's terminology used to describe 10 substances like pharmaceuticals, feed additives. 11 Q And what was your Job there? ' 12 A. To try to develop new uses for existing" 13 products or identify new needs, hopefully find new products 14 to suit. 15 Q Was that at World Headquarters? Had that 16 been built at that time? 17 A Yes, part of it. 18 Q Were you there? ,. \ 19 : a : >. Yes. 20 Q And how long were you in that Job? 21 A Until January of *61. 22 And what position did you get then? A I became Development Manager in the newly formed Agricultural Division. Q How long were you in that Job? JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIO F Until April of 1964. 'W Okay. What were your duties and responsi- 3 vtoiiitfie tttre? 4 A. I had responsibility for, again, new product 5 development in the area of insecticides and blasting agents. 6 ft Okay. This, again, would have nothing to 7 do with herbicides, X guess? 8 A None. 9 ft All right. April, *64, where d .w - w . iit t in d ''V -.^i,*,-c*:. :l;>i'lM;\i 1.'V.;fV:&'vv* *v"''vv 10 A I moved over into the Marketing Dpartnnt:`*M* . ''V ^ * .v * * : ' *' 11 as Director of Product Sales. ' ^ v- , ' '( 12 ft How long were you in that Job? TS"'. 13 A Until sometime either late winter or early 14 spring of 1968. 15 ft And what were your duties and responsibili 16 ties there? 17 A I had the responsibility for developing 18 marketing strategies and pricing for all of our products, 19 ft nV- That included everything, I guess? 20 A Everything. 21 ft Now, would that include 2,4,5 T? 22 A Yes. 23 ft Okay. After that where did you go, sir? 24 A I stayed in the AgriculturalDivision, but 25 my responsibility changed. I was the Director of International JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G S E P V irir Marketing. ' hi'' * Okay. How long were you in that Job? ..- ,TM.TM. Until the spring of 1970. 4 okay* And what were your duties and respon 5 sibilities there? A I had the responsibility for our product 7 sales everywhere except the United States. 8 Q That was all your international market, 9 right? 10 A. (Nods head affirmatively.) 11 Q Okay. In the spring of *70 where`did; you.go 12 A I stayed right where I was, but I 13 Director of International Operations, which meant that in 14 addition to marketing I had responsibility for manufacturing, 15 the whole business, outside the United States. 16 Q That included marketing or sales and manu-- 17 facturing? 18 A Uh huh (yes) 19 - Q How long were you in that Job? Again, that 20 would be outside the United States, of course? - -t- ` .. .i; 21 A ` Yes. I was in that Job from, I guess, 22 until -- I had a change in assignments in there from the 23 period 172 to *7^, I had several other Jobs, and not so 24 much with change of title but Just a change of responsi 25 bilities. JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E Okay, In other words, you were there until 3T 4 About what part of *7*1? Spring or summer? 5 A. Spring, I believe, 6 Q All right. How did the Job change? We 7 talked about you had the marketing and the operations. 8 A It was broadened to include some domestic 9 * responsibilities also as well as international. Primarily rvyK-* 10 in the area of planning manufacturing capacities and'this''*-5 11 type thing 12 es Okay, In other words, increasing the'pro 13 duction even in the United States? 14 A Well, the problem was that we had difficulty 15 balancing production to meet both international needs and 1 domestic needs, and since the seasons in various parts of 17 the world, the agricultural seasons, are different, it took 18 some planning to make sure we had the right thing at the 19 right time.'; 20 Q' I see. In f7^ where did you go? ?1 A Went to the New Enterprise Division. 22 Q Okay, And how long were you in that? 23 A Until the fall of 1977. 24 Q And what was your position? 25 A I was Director of New Business Development. JAM ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E 1 .y 2 What was this New Enterprise? It was a group that was chartered to hope- 3 into the new businesses, non-traditional 4 types;' 5 Q Making new products and developing a market 6 for them? 7 A. Well, looking for new market opportunities 8 but away from our traditional lines of business. 9 Q, Can you give me an example of what*Vou?rr .\' *. v * - ' ,,A ' r- * , 11 j* v 10 talking about? 11 A. Yes. One of the businesses I developed was- > I- ';- 12 a line of gas separation equipment now marketed under .the 13 trade name Prism. U Q After the fall of *77 where did you go? | 15 A I moved into a corporategroup, the 16 Environmental Policy Staff. i 17 Q Okay. How long were you in that group? 18 A I still am. V }\*- \ 19 Q Okay. Who all is a member of the Environ!- ." i *j 20 mental Policy Staff, sir? 1 i 21 A At the time I Joined it? 22 Cl Uh huh (yes). j i ! *i 23 A It was Mr. Throdahl, that's T-h-r-o-d-a-h-l, 24 who is Senior Vice-President for Environmental Policy; there 25 was a gentleman who's since retired, had responsibility for JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G S E R V IC E 1 the Implementation within Monsanto of the newly passed Toxic L2 ']vSubotanoeaF-jpontro1 Act. M ;* 3 A Q What was his name? .'r 4 A. Winthrop Corey. And there was a fellow by 5 the name of Dick Sayers, who was the Internal Director of Compliance with Environmental Regulations, He was the 7 oversight function at the corporate level. 3 a Anyone else when you first went in there? 9 A No. That was it. 10 Q Just those three? 11 A Plus Mr. Throdahl. * - -, 12 a You're still on that staff, rlght?:*v. 13 A Uh huh (yes) . 14 a Who has since come and gone? 15 A Well, Corey and Sayers are both gone, both 16 retired. The gentlemen that have come since then are Will 17 Carpenter, Director of Regulatory Management; Mr. Tom Evans, 18 who's Regulatory Director for OSHA .Compliance; there's 19 .Mr. Condray* who took Mr. Corey's place on TSCA. There's 20 Mr. Parley, who's now in charge of Solid Waste Regulatory 21 Management; Mr. Malek, who's in charge of the Water Regula 22 tions; and Mr. Jessee, who's now in charge of Air Regulation^. 23 Q What does the Environmental Policy Staff, 24 Just generally, what is their function? 25 A Well, their function Is to insure for the JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E I. ) 1 ...corporation that we are doing what's necessary to be in 2 *. c - r "fTcompliance with the various environmental regulations and 3 \iicbp observe :the things that are happening in Washington and 4 that are likely to impact us in the future. 5 Q Okay. Now, were you folks responsible for putting into effect what has been mentioned as MEHI? 7 A. Actually, no. That was part of the function 8 of the Department of Medicine and Environmental Health, 9 which also reported to Mr. Throdahl. 10 q in other words, Throdahl was the head and' 11 the other fellows were members of that staff, right?; 12 A Well, all the people I have mentioned by 13 name were members of the Environmental Policy Staff, cor 14 rect. The Department of Medicine and Environmental Health 15 was separate, co-equal, if you will, reporting to Mr. 16 Throdahl. 17 a They were lateral, then? 18 A Uh huh (yes), 19 a And they put into effect MEHI, right? 20 A Correct. 21 Cl 22 that? Okay. Would you have had any input into 23 A From time to time on an advisory basis. 24 U Tell us what the MEHI stands for? 25 A It's Monsanto Environmental Health Informtiin, JA M ES MAY R E PO R TIN G d F B U ir r Vj And did they contract with Stamford Research Institute to do some work? A. I don't know. 7 ^ Well, let me ask you this, did they bring 8 in or computerize various data Involving materials, toxicityj 9 work exposure? 10 MR. LOVE: Can I ask, when you 11 "they," who are you talking about? 12 Q Well, would be DMEH and MEHI? 13 A That was the whole purpose of the MEHI 14 System was to get the data in a place where it could be 15 readily handled in terms of being able to find it and l retrieve it. 17 Q Is it on a computer system? 18 A It is, Itfs not completely full, up fully 19 yet. 20 Was the Nitro Plant one of the first plants 21 to go online? 22 A One of the first, perhaps. 23 a Okay. Do you know whether or not it ?s 24 complete? 25 A I don't believe it's still complete, no. JA M E S MAY R E PO R TIN G SER V IC E / v 1 ^ . Do you know what has to be done yet? 2: V * -------- 3 . i .j* . vS - d : > .> ` No. Now, you mentioned in *64 to *68 you 4 Director of Sales in the Marketing Division? 5 A. Marketing Department, yes. 6 d And at that period of time you were selling 7 products that came from Nitro, right, to the government? 8 A Yes, among other products. 9 'd And did you manufacture at Nitro 2 , 4 , 5 ""r' 10 trichlorophenoxyactic acid? ;'^ 11 A Yes. 12 d Did you manufacture at that period of time 13 any 2,4,5 T anyplace else? 14 No. 15 d Okay. At Monsanto*s Nitro Plant did you 16 manufacture any 2,4 dichlorophenoxyacetic acid, 2,4 D? 17 A N o . 18 d Where did the company manufacture 2,4 D? 19 . A The William 0. Krummrich Plant. 20 d Okay. You*re'familiar with a term Agent 21 Orange, I take it? 22 A Yes. 23 d Am I correct in saying that Agent Orange 24 is a 50 percent component of 2,4,5 T and 2,4 D? 25 A Yes, expressed as their esters. IAU r e U AV D P fu ry * CDI/I/^I  > - J ` 1 4 Where was this put together to be sent to 2 . for whatever use they used it? 3 ;iV7v:*r*'; i -h ,:$ r X i. To Krummrich. 4 a In Krummrich? 5 A (Nods head affirmatively.) Q In other words, you manufactured the 2,11,5 T, 7 brought it to Kruimnrich and it was placed -- 8A 9 '4 10 done at? 11 A. 12 4 It was esterified and mixed. Do you remember what department that:* &y- liil \li-*r-^ .:*& & >> No. - y . '* 3/j.s .}-~y.j ;4- Do you remember when this company quit ** . Vi* 13 manufacturing 2 , H , 5 T? 14 A. When Monsanto quit manufacturing? 15 4 Yes. 1 A. I believe it was 1970. 17 4 Now, while you were in that position of 18 Director of International Marketing in the Agricultural 19 , Department `you would have been out of anything that had 20 to do with 2,1,5 T, wouldn't you? 21 A Yes. 22 4 Now, from *64 to f68 did you have any 23 knowledge about the 2,^,5 T operation's causing the impurity 24 TCDD being made? 25 A No. JAMES MAY RFPOBTINr. BFBUirp 1 ft In your Job In marketing sales, Director of '** "*' f \ -v* *lT'( V' t * 2 i.^Sales>/id'you deal directly with the government or indirectly? 3 A *. I'm not sure what you mean by "directly." 4 ft Well, I mean -- 5 A Solicitation for bid came to my desk? 6 ft Yes. 7 A Yes. 8 ft Did the government have any specification! 9 in regard to the sale of Agent Orange? 10 A What do you mean by specificationsfV^V^U '"v 11 ft Well, what did they prescribe that that 12 stuff do or not do? J-i-*.. . - 13 A That it be as identified, a fifty-fifty 14 mixture of the esters and that, as I recall, there were 15 specifications on the amount of free acid unesterified, the 16 amount of water present, that type of thing. 17 ft Was there any qualifications or restriction, 18 if you will, on the amount of TCDD that could be in Agent 19 Orange? 20 A No, none that I'm aware of. 21 ft Were youaware at that point in time that 22 your 2,4,5 T was causing TCDD?' 23 A No, 3ir. / 24 ft Well, let me ask you this, when did you 25 learn that your operation there at Nitro, the 2,4,5 T t A 1 4 P i? 1 4 A' 1 process,. was causing TCDD? 2 . i \* My recollection is that I didn't even know 3 TCDD. imtilf-i"heard about it after X was out of that Job in 4 5 a Can you give me a time frame after that? 6 A. No, I can't. 7 o, Was it in the '70's? 8 A. I recall hearing about the identification 9 of the isomer sometime around 1969, *70, someplace.:}iiv/there. 10 0, '69 or '70? V n A Best recollection. .v>," 12 Q From f6h to '68 were you made aware-of any - * **' I I 13 health problems that the workers in that process were having! 14 A. Only apocryphally I had heard we had the 15 upset in fi*9, a number of people had developed a rash called 16 chloracne and periodically we would have a case of chloracne 17 some cases of chloracne, but, again, apocryphally the inci 18 dence was drastically going down. 19 /* Q ***" No one in the Medical Department or Analyti 20 cal Department told you anything about what was causing it, 21 right? 22 A No. As a matter of fact, I don't think 23 anybody knew. They knew there was a chloracnegen in there, 24 but the identity of it was not known, at least, as far as I 25 know. JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G S E B V in r 1. J ( 1 ft Wasn't the chloracnegen identified in 1957 2 -}^-t.fiy%'-*.*-r-,^*';tc'h-.i.d?*:***f>"f,,.vr--mt--Ca:*-/hr-,s.? ''*: 3 0..- V-^V-" I don't know. 4 ft Are you familiar with a study by Kimmig and 5 Schulz that Isolated the Isomer? A. Not as far as I know. 7 ft Were you ever told or did you ever learn 8 during that period of time or thereafter that TCDD causes 9 other illness besides chloracne? .^^**s*5h*.*i-v.tf-f- 10 A. How long, is there after? viii.'r';V-'>-v.'y-.' . 11 ft Well, up to the present time, I guee. A K,.i A'^v V v 12 A. I have heard speculations, but I ha^Uiqially:' 13 heard that other than chloracne that appears to be the only 14 medical problem . I do not know first-hand knowledge.; 15 ft Now, have you ever been a member of the 16 group calling themselves the Nitro Health Study Task Force? 17 A. Yes. 18 ft When did you become a member of that body? 19 A. When it was formed. 20 ft And about when was it formed? 21 A. Late 1977 or early 1978. 22 ft What was the reason for its formation? 23 A. Well, as I recall, our^Director of Medicine -- 24 ft That was who at the time? 25 A. Dr. George Roush. 1 wnr- tJ ____ _A & ________________________ _____ 1 He is still the Director, right? 2i Uh huh (yes). He was contacted by Dr. 3 \?Raymond/Suikihd who asked if we would allow him to go in 4 and Update the health status of the workers who had been 5 involved in the 19^9 incident which he had seen profession 6 ally at the time. 7 Q All right. Now, let me ask you this, there 8 were three studies done, *49 '50 and *53. Are you familiar 9 with those? , 10 A. I 've heard about them. v,<V; Vr 11 Q You know how many was seen or looked at by 12 him in the *53 study? U 13 A. I don't have any idea. . 14 Q Suskind then some -- what did you say the 15 date was? 16 A. Late t77> early '78. 17 a He came to Monsanto and wanted to do what, 18 now? 19 * f:v: He wanted to do an update on the physical 'ft 20 > status, the medical status from those workers in the f^9 21 * incident, 22 Q Then it would be the people -- he saw four 23 in fli9 and, I think, six in '50? 24 A. He wanted all the people that were there. 25 Q *He wanted to do all of the people? J A M P ; MAV DCBO D TIW ft C P B iilf i 1 (Nods head affirmatively.) 2 It was not Just a situation that he wanted 3 ;, ^3Boid;-owV-th....r thirty-seven? - ;7. 4 A. If thirty-seven was the number, no. He 5 wanted to do everybody. 6 Q All right. And everybody that waa in the 7 plant or retired, or what group we talking about? 8 A. Well, as it finally turned out, we tried to 9 . get everybody who was in the plant at that time, retired^"oife V 10 not, to come back, and be examined by Dr. Suskind an&'vtha^^' '. ;S / 11 team that he had put together. rf: 12 Q Did Monsanto furnish him medical dsft&^axrtr 13 exposure data concerning this study? 14 A. He was furnished medical records, to my 15 knowledge, and through work histories we identified indi 16 viduals who had ever been involved in the manufacture or 17 handling of 2,ft,5 T. 18 Q Exposure data, work history, exposure data, 19 right? :*V ^ 4 > 20 A. Work histories and exposure to 2,^,5 T, 21 yea, air. 22 Cl Of course, that would come out of MEHI, 23 right? 24 A. If this were a perfect world, yes. In fact, 25 it wasn!t. MEHI wasn't up yet and they had to go in and J A M K M A V D r o n O T iu r 1 deal with, hard copy records. 2 3 A. Certainly. 4 Q He did a study under the auspices of at 5 least one organization, Steelworkers, Isn't that right?, A. That's right. 7 Q As either a memberof theEnvironmental 8 Policy Staff or the Nitro Health Study Task Force. Did you 9 have any involvement in dealing with Dr. Selikoff?.^, 10 A. Me personally, no. 11 Q Do you know what data he was afforded as. far 12 as the past medical history of the people he saw? 13 A. My recollection wasthat hedidn't ask for 14 any medical histories. He asked for work histories on 15 people that had been exposed to 2,4,5 T, and I believe we 16 gave him employee lists. 17 Q Okay. Did you give him -- you say employee 18 lists or people that had work histories of having worked in 19 2,4,5 T, is that what you gave him? 20 A. That's what I believe we gave him. We gave 21 him what he asked for. 22 Q Now, Suskind came in to do this study, and 23 was it he that wanted to do everybody again, is that it? 24 A. Yeah. Dr. Suskind and Dr. Sellkoff were 25 both members, are still, both members of a World Health l& U rC U AV D e o n n -.i.ii- > i ^ , ^ 1 Organization group that was studying the Seveso incident in 2 . ^ *' ,-*./* u WhatrCSuskind wanted to do was to go back and look at (*'; ^V .*i A'\ * 3 3"*"-V* *the' population that had been involved in the 1949 incident 4 because that was the oldest population that anybody was 5 aware of that had been exposed to this chloracnegen. Then 6 as things usually happen, as he began to get into it, he 7 wanted to do more and more and more, and we were interested 8 also in looking at the 2,4,5 T exposures; and so by mutual 9 consent he expanded and went on with the study. ' " - / b - ^ 10 Q All right. Who was to be in control o t that 11 study? Monsanto or Suskind? 12 A. Dr. Suskind. 13 Q And you're sure about that? 14 A. Tes, I'm sure about it. 15 Cl Okay. And, I take it from the records, that 16 he saw a. total of 436 people between June 11th and June 18th 17 of 1979, isn't that correct? 18 A. If that's the number. I don't know. 19 Q ,, Now, have you seen or been privy to any of 20 th raw data that he generated from that study? 21 A. No, I've not. To my knowledge, nobody from 22 Monsanto has. 23 Cl Have you seen or been privy to any prelimi- 2* nary reports that he has given? 25 A. Only very broad summary. Much as he gave 1UCC U A \y .-- ---------- -- 1 in Salzburg, Austria, last November. 2 Okay. Was this a preliminary draft or drafts 3 : ^that^he waar':looking at to submit It to a Journal for peer Zr ,*t\ 4 review? 5 A To my knowledge, he has nothing written up 6 in Journal format yet. He keeps saying he's going to. 7 Q Did you attend any meetings with him either 8 at World Headquarters here or at Kettering concerning this 9 project? 10 A. ,, ^*#* :'yj- '- V' Not specifically concerning this pwj$ct-. 11 I attended one meeting with him at Kettering, I don^t 12 remember exactly when it was, but it was myself, Drv,Roush, . I J 13 the president of the local union from the Nitro Plant and 14 an official from the International Steelworkers. The pur 15 pose was -- this was by way of request of the steelworkers 16 who were concerned that they had never gotten any of Dr. 17 Selikoff's and they wanted to discuss protocol design for, 18 perhaps, another health study. 19 Q -v And when was that? Do you have any idea? 20 827 21 A 22 been *80. Mo. It was earlier than that. May have 23 Q You have any meetings with him where you 24 were there in 82? 25 A No. JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G S P B V irc 1 How about 181? \ i 2 :` No. That's the only time I ever laid eyes i 3 otVLDr < Sub kind* 4 Q. Did he give you a .copy of this broad summary 5 that you have talked about? 6 A. No. I've not seen any hard copy. I have i 7 been told. Matter of fact, I've never heard from Dr, Sus- 8 kind in broad summary. I've heard from other people from 9 Susklnd. I read the piece he gave at Salzburg, but that's . V ' A ' ' ' ,, j* v 10 a one-page piece. That, by the way, was Just published*"'' 11 Q What was It published In, sir? 12 A. I don't remember the name of the Journal-, 13 but it was a proceedings of the meeting. 14 Q That's Salzburg? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q That was under who? Who put It on? 17 A. I don't know who was the sponsoring organi 18 zation. It probably might have been WHO because a lot of 19 the papers--.had to do with Seveso. 20 Q Can you tell me what findings he gave that 21 group, If any? 22 A. The piece that I read wa3 so vague that 23 basically the only conclusion you could come to was he 24 found chloracne. He spoke nothing more about the general 25 physical. JA M E *i M A V D f D A n x i n / - c r D i n / x - \{ \ How about *81? No. That's the only time I ever laid eyes 3 W V D r i-SUBltlhd, 4 4 Did he give you a .copy of this broad summary 5 that you have talked about? 6 A. No. I've not seen any hard copy. I have 7 been told. Matter of fact, I've never heard from Dr. Sus- 8 kind in broad summary. I've heard from other people from 9 Suskind. I read the piece he gave at Salzburg, but that*a . 10 a one-page piece. That, by the way, was Just published*^11 Q What was it published In, sir? 12 A. I don't remember the name of the Journal-, 13 but it was a proceedings of the meeting. 14 Q That's Salzburg? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q That was under who? Who put it on? 17 A. I don't know who was the sponsoring organi 18 zation. It probably might have been WHO because a lot of 19 the papers-had to do with Seveso. 20 Q Can you tell me what findings he gave that 21 group, if any? 22 A. The piece that I read wa3 so vague that * 23 basically the only conclusion you could come to was he 24 found chloracne. He spoke nothing more about the general 25 physical. JAM ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E 1 2 >i:<y? ^ VV* * ! 3* ~;:of^thatn .'i'V'.* 4 'Q ' 5 A. 6Q Find any liver problem? I don't think there was anything mentioned Peripheral neuropathy? Not that I recall. Circulatory disease? 7 A. I don't recall he ever dealt with those. 8 Q In other words, the only medical term you 9 recall from his proceedings was -- 10 A. -- chioracne. V`"h* ~ - 11 (Whereupon a short recess was taken, ' 12 after which the following proceedings werefhad.)- / 13 Qt I don't think we discussed, we did to a 14 certain degree, but what was the purpose of the Nitro Health 15 Study Task Force? l A. Well, the initial purpose was to facilitate 17 the Suskind study, to pull together data that Suskind wanted 18 to make sure he had a place to carry out the exams, how we 19 would-communicate with our employees. Just all the 20 things that go into it. The MEHI System was in the process 21 of being brought up. We recognized when it got fully oper 22 able, we would probably be doing this sort of thing in other 23 places. So the Nitro Task Force wa3 put together essenti 24 ally as a prototype of things that we might do later on in 25 other places. Consequently, it probably got a little JAMES MAY R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E 3C 1 overstaffed. _ 2 - '' M y. Vh .v.Ii.J -*1 y Let me ask you this, was that Its sole 3 -function? . 4 A. Sole function was the corporate facilitation 5 of the Nitro study, yes. 6 Q Had no other function, as far as you're 7 concerned? 8 A. , None other than, as I say, would be a proto9 type of things we might do later. 10 Q And that dealt with, as you've said> getting 11 together the data that had enough facilities for Suskind to 12 do this study? 13 A. Well, yeah. It was that and since most of K the things that we would be doing, looking at various work 15 force populations around the corporation, it was to bring u the manufacturing community in, it was to bringthe communi17 cations community'in because we had to communicate to all 18 sorts of constituents, as our employees and employees' 19 families. 20 Q You had never done that prior to this task 21 force, right? 22 A. We had obviously done occupational health 23 studies before, but we have never attempted one on such a 24 scale. 25 Did you do any work on a study called JAM ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E 31 1 . Suskind and Zack Mortality Study7 2 7 Did I do any, no. 3 Q \ ' 0 ) : Have you read it? 4 A. `Yes. 5 Q, That came out in the Journal of Occupational Medicine in January of '80, I think, correct? 7 A. Sometime around there. 8 Q Do you know anything about the validity of 9 that study, whether it was accurate? 10 A. I assume it is. It was peer reviewed in a-v11 reputable Journal. 12 Q And tremendous amounts of publicity were13 generated out of this Nitro Task Force, Health Study Task 14 Force, on that, isn't that right? 15 A. I 'm not sure I 'd say tremendous amounts. 15 Q, You told the world, didn't you? 17 A. Sure. Published it in public literature. 18 Q You familiar with a subsequentmortality 19 study done by Zack and Gaffey that was in about October of 20 80? 21 A. Yes. 22 Cl Are youfamiliar or do you know about the 23 accuracy of it? You assume i t 's accurate also? 24 A. Yes. 25 Neither of these studies have you looked at JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E 1 the raw data have you? 2 No. 3 And, again, this task force publicized this 4 ` to thVjblio, did it not? 5 A We have generally made every health study 6 that we ever performed public. We haven't yet made the 7 final Suskind study made public because we haven't got the 8 report. 9 Q That's over four years since you dld^the;. 10 exams on those people, isn't it? : y<* 'V t/ 11 A Yeah. .* 12 Q You have any knowledge of why that..study:. 13 hasn't been brought forward? 14 A I have no specific knowledge other than 15 Dr. Suskind is not the best manager in the world and he gets l intrigued in other things and goes off and leaves things 17 unfinished. 18 Q Monsanto pay money to get that study done? 19 . Yes .,, 20 Q Do you have any idea what the amount was? 21 A Oh, X think it was somewhere $150, $200,000. 22 Q Did any other organization contribute to 23 that also? j 24 A Not that I'm aware of. Kettering may have 25 put some money into it. JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E Q Do you know from documents or from what you company that Dr. Suskind has done studies eiijjrpany since 1949? 4 Yes, I knew that. 5 Q Did you know that he testified in some work 6 men's compensation hearings in '54 and '5 5 , *56, *57 for 7 the company? 8 A. No. 9 Do you know when your company becaia^cajfcable. 10 of analyzing 2,4,5 T for TCDD? n A. No, I don't. Vr 12 Q You were never made aware through any d o cu - ; 13 ments or anything like that when they could test for that? 14 A. Nothing that I can recall, no. 15 Q Would you be given copies of documents 16 relating to dioxin -- we'll use that term for TCDD -- from 17 *64 to *68? 18 A. I don't recall any. 19 -- Q Prom your analytical people? ' 20 A. No. See, that was so far out of my area of 21 responsibility that I might or might not be copied. I 22 don't recall. 23 Q Okay. You remember a fellow named Elmer 24 Wheeler? 25 A. Yes. JAM ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER V IC E 3 ft Do you know from documents or from what you i l ^ f ^ ^ n dini^iour company that Dr. Susklnd has done studies 3 since 19^9? *'. *. ' V ^ v.v.:..'. v fe- 4 *'-v " v l*i**'' Yes, I knew that. 5 ft Did you know that he testified in some work men's compensation hearings in '5** and '55, *56, '57 for 7 the company? 8 A. No. 9 Do you know when your company becanie^capable, ........... 10 of analyzing 2,^,5 T for TCDD? 11 A. N o , I don't . ' 12 Q You were never made aware through any docu- 13 ments or anything like that when they could test for that? 14 A. Nothing that I can recall, no. 15 Q Would you be given copies of documents 16 relating to dioxin -- we'll use that terra for TCDD -- from 17 '61 to '687 18 A. I don't recall any. 19 Prom your analytical people? * 20 A. ' No. See, that was so far out of my area of 21 responsibility that I might or might not be copied. I 22 don't recall. 23 Q Okay. You remember a fellow named Elmer 24 Wheeler? 25 A. Yes. JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 What type work did he do, generally, for 2 v' 3 ; Elmer was, I guess, a self-trained Industrial 4 hygienist in the days when there weren't that many of them 5 4 Has the Selikoff study ever came out? 6 A. Not that I'm aware of, no. 7 4 But it has been the company's position, has 8 it not, all the way through that the only thing that they 9 found is chloracne, right? vi- V 10 A. That was in the general summary thatwas > n given the company by Dr. Suskind. 12 4 Let me ask you about -- it may not.jbV'ypW/!,^ 13 field of expertise, I don't know -- on this control group 14 that they used in the Suskind morbidity study done in June 15 of *79, what type of control did they use, do you recall? 16 A. I don't know., I'm not an epidemiologist. 17 Q So whatever type it was, you wouldn't know 18 one way or another whether it was a good one, right? 19 A.:.r.ii I personally wouldn't know. 20 4 Do you recall whether or not you from time 21 to time, other than the time you said you went to see 22 Suskind, had any communication with him concerning the 23 study itself? 24 A. No. The only time I met Dr. Suskind or 25 spoke to Dr. Suskind was the time I mentioned. JAMES MAY R E P O R T IN G S ER V IC E 3! 1 4 You know whether any other member of the 2 Taak'-.Fprce -- 3 - .. . ." A. To my knowledge,' none- of the Nitro Task 4 Force communicated with Dr. Susklnd. 5 Q How about DMEH? A. Yes. I know that from time to time we have 7 gone back to Susklnd, DMEH has gone back to Susklnd, and 8 asked him where the hell the report Is. 9Q 10 right? 11 A. Okay. "What have you done with my^^oney*."-.. i1-;,V \ `-i. . . V * ' . ' V - : ` Well, as a matter of fact, It's gotten.down 12 to that. We withheld the last payment for some period'-of; 13 time. 14 Q You know anything about a meeting with 15 Elmer Wheeler with executives from BASF prior to 1956? 16 A. No. 17 Q ~ Let me see if I 'm clear on this. When 18 Monsanto made the agreement with Susklnd and Kettering, he 19 was to be in charge of this study, is that correct? 20 A. That'scorrect. 21 Q And you're very sure of that? 22 A Yes. 23 MR. PRATT: Okay. That's all. 24 25 William J, MeCarvilie JAM ES MAY R E P O R TIN G 5E R V IC E XHPF- iUJHOIS ) ) SS COUNTY OP MADISON ) I, M. JOY SPRINGER, a Notary Public, duly commissioned and qualified in and for the County of Madison, State of Illinois, do hereby certify that pursuant.;to-noticecame before me on the 12th day of July, 1983, at the: Radisson Hotel, Room 215, 9th Street and Convention'Plaaa, St. Louis, Missouri, WILLIAM J. MC CARVILLE, who was.by-me duly sworn to testify to the truth and nothing but the truth of his knowledge touching and concerning the matters in controversy in this case; that he was thereupon carefully examined upon oath, and his examination reduced to writing under my supervision; that the deposition is a true record of the testimony given by the witness; and signature of the witness was; not waived by agreement of counsel. I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither attorney nor counsel for nor related to nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this deposition is taken; and further, that I am not a relative or employee of any attorney and counsel employed by the parties hereto, or financially interested in the action. JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E 1 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my * * '' f. e d 'my notarial seal on this <_________ day of 3 1983. 4 5 7 8 9 Notary Public with for the County of 10 in the State of II 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 1* 20 21 22 23 24 25 JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G S ER V IC E ;\ 3!