Document 6ww5da37goyNQGyzjj50b2Z3g

1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT TWENTIETH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT OF ILLINOIS 2 ST. CLAIR COUNTY 3 FRANCES E. KEMNER, et al.. 4 Plaintiffs, 5 vs. 6 MONSANTO COMPANY, 7 Defendant. NO. 80-L-970 8 Before the BON. RICHARD P. GOLDENHERSH, Judge 9 IO 11 12 TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL PROCEEDINGS 13 April 17, 1985 14 15 16 APPEARANCES: 17 Mr. Rex Carr Mr. Jerome Seigfreid 18 On Behalf of the Plaintiffs 19 Mr. William Musgrave Mr. Joseph Nassif 20 On Behalf of Defendant Monsanto 21 22 SANDRA ROE 23 Official Court Reporter 24 1 INDEX 2 WITNESS 3 Phocion Park Recross Examination by Mr. Carr 4 5 EXHIBITS 6 IDENTIFIED 7 Plaintiff's Exhibit #1303 Plaintiff's Exhibit #1305 8 Plaintiff's Exhibit #1306 Plaintiff's Exhibit #1307 9 Plaintiff's Exhibit #1308 Plaintiff's Exhibit #1309 10 Plaintiff's Exhibit #1310 Plaintiff's Exhibit #1311 11 Plaintiff's Exhibit #1302-A 2 59 94 102 108 116 133 137 144 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 PAGE 2 ADMITTED 3 95 102 108 117 133 138 145 1 BE IT REMEMBERED AND CERTIFIED that heretofore, on to-wit 2 April 17, 1985, being one of the regular judicial day8 of 3 this Court, the natter as hereinbefore set forth caxne on for 4 hearing before the HON* RICHARD P. GOLDENHERSH, Circuit Judge 5 in and for the Twentieth Judicial Circuit, State of Illinois, 6 in Courtroom #14, St* Clair County Building, Belleville, St* 7 Clair County, Illinois, and the following was had of record, 8 to-wit: 9 10 11 (Court convened) 12 THE COURTS Good morning. Okay. Ladies and 13 gentlemen, before we start, in keeping with our policy 14 of letting you know when you are going to have time when 15 Court is not going to be in session, one of those times 16 will be Monday, the 22nd of April. So I wanted to let 17 you know that. Mr. Carr? 18 PHOCION PARK, 19 called as a witness under Section 2-11-2 by the plaintiff, 20 having been previously sworn, deposes and states as follows: 21 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 22 BY MR. CARR: 23 (Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 1303 marked for identifi 24 cation by the reporter as requested.) 2 1 Q X am handing you w h a t 18 been marked Plaintiff1s ,v `2 Exhibit 1303, Mr- Park, and ask you to look at i that, plea4se-,> * 3 Do you recognize that, Mr- Park, do you not, as a report f r o m . 4 your analytic chemist dealing with 2,4-dichlorophenol dated 5 September 2, 1981? 6 A I don't recognize it specifically, Mr. Carr, but I 7 do see it has a Monsanto, letterhead on it- 8 Q And you see it's dated September.2, 1981? 9. A Yes. 10 Q And you see it has analysis as a title, analysis of 11 orthochlorophenol, parachlorophenol and 2,4-dichlorophenol 12 for chlorinated dibenzofurans? 13 A ' Yes. 14 MR- CARR: .I offer this exhibit into evidence, if /'_*%< '.- y ,> * IS it please the court-; 1' ,, , .* * 16 THE COURT:i-,AnriyLob*"je'ct;ijo-jn-i. ; \\\ ij s/,(..* 17 MR- MUSGRAVE:1 I'm sorry -- he offered it in evidence; 18 THE COURT: /'Yes, he did-. . . . / '* !. * i 19 MR- MUSGRAVE: Yes, Your Honor, it deals with the r 20 dibenzofurans and 2,4-dichlorophenol, not being dioxin, v 21 . and X would object on the basis of the fact that it does .: 22 deal with 2,4-dichlorophenol, and secondly, not with dioxi. 23 THE COURT: It's admitted over objectionv -- tJ 24 MR- CARR: And ask leave to pass 7 - " r. 1 Q (MR. CARR) And Mr. Park, if you will refer to .; 1' j ,r 2 Rage 5," Table 3, you will see that that is an analysis of, 3 2,4-dichlorophenol for chlorinated dibenzofurans, sir? 4 A - Yes. 5 MR. CARR: I have copies o f the cover page and of 6 Table 3 that I wish to pass to the jury with the Court's '7. leave 8 THE COURT: Fine, go right ahead. 9 (At this time.the exhibit was passed to the jury) 10 Q MR. CARR: And directing your attention to that 11 Table 3, that is the analysis of 2,4-dichlorophenols for ^ 12 chlorinated dibenzofurans, you see that all of the samples 13 tested from May through November, that there were.tetradibenzo, 14 chlorinated dibenzofurans found, you see that, sir?, 15 A ` This is Tabjle 3? ; ' t'-'l,v` -;. :. 'V '(|11 , 1 16 Q , Yes. , i 17 A . . -. i - ]: -5 ;!' *" A I 'm sorry,' I d o n 't* see* dates on there. 1 18 Q Well, it haswt h e .KM05., 6 , 7 and so. forth. There is 9 previous testimony that the first number stands for the month ` 20 A I see, yes, X do see a footnote at each one of those 21 numbers, it znay Indicate some question. * **1? ^ 22 Q You see the footnote B, do you. sir? iv 23 A Yes. Q And the footnote B says two TCDFs were present in 4 >- 1 1 the samples with this particular isomer having analytical 2 characteristics on a packed GG column comparable;to the 3 2.3.7.8 TCDF. Do you see that there, sir? ?; 4 A Yes. / .* 5 Q And what they are telling you about Letter B i s , V r 6 that they found those quantities of Isomers that are comparable 7 that have the same analytical characteristics[as the 8 *" ' * ,s * ' 2.3.7.8 TCDF, is that correct, sir? ' *i? * ,; 9 HR* MUSGRAVE* I object, it's a misrepresentation, 10 Your Honor, he didn*t read all f it. It does say see 11 the discussion of these results for further results using .. 1 ', ." \ - i 12 capillary columns. 13 MR. CARR: Indeed, it says that, but I am directing. ' 14 your attention, however, to what this table characterises 15 these tetras. 16 THE COURT* Objection is overruled. * (^ ^ * r 17 A I.don't really understand what that means. 18 Q Mr. Park, but you do unde-rr`sta.n'dJ the *language that 19 is there, do you not, sir? - .- .** , . 20 ' A - Ho,,i really don't.*.' ^ ; ,r>- !> ... *. - ~j 21 '.! 1 \ ^ * - , L . + j. ,. MR. HUSGRAVE i I object. Your Honor;'-to this witness 22 '\ i / '*.: .* / *i i .. 1-: ' i interpreting document that he did.not author, when he/ 23 is not-qualified as an analytical chemist .with analytical 24 training to interpret such documents, or alchemist of any W - * - % *- * , i *1 > s* \ ,,* -5- 1 background to interpret such document. So, X object tp. V* t -t < v '' 2 counsel questioning him on this basis. 1'^ ^^ '1 'V 3 THE COURT: Overruled. 4 MR. CARR: Mark this as.an exhibit, please. **, r 5 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 1304 was marked for identifi 6 cation by the reporter as requested.) 7 0 (MR. CARR) Mr. Park, you recognize Exhibit 1304 ,as\. ', . 8 your file, which Mr. Seigfreid and I reviewed at 7:30 last 9 night, do you not, sir, that was produced at your attorney's IO office for us? 11 A . This does appear to be my file. t 12 Q And you recognize in your file, that is your - , ; 13 TSCA 8 (e) file, is it not, sir? 14 .A For one of the meetings, yes. 15 Q That's right, this/particular meting that was held 16 on September 14, 1981, isn't it, sir? 17 The meeting,was-on ,Novemberv24 . 18 Q November 24, and your memo was dated September 14, i iiv ' 19 relative to that meeting? :, -> 1 1 20 A That's correct. - A x 21 Q ,, And would you look within that file .1304 and see, if- 22 there is not in there, Exhibit 1303, the original of Exhibit ` " 23 1303 which we are now discussing. \V , > -'/j ; . f 24 A Yes. r -6- :; '. -V/ . ,. f i -v ' : r I r 1 Q And It has -- is that y o u r ,handwriting on the cover , 2 of that, where it says BU, November 24, for 3(e) meeting? 3 A No, it isn't . 4 Q In any event, it's in your file and it was sent to 5 you, was it not, sir? 6 A All I can say is it's in my file here 7 Q Well, it got in your file by some device or method, 8 didn't'it, Mr Park? 9 A Yes. 10 Q It was sent to you for your consideration and use 11 in determining what you are going to report or whether or not 12 you are going to report pursuant to the law on 8 (e) as to the 13 presence of toxic substances in 2,4-dichlorophenol, isn't that 14 correct, sir? v- 15 A . I have no idea> M r C a r r * It's in my file, it's 16 conceivable, it either may have been placed in there after the 17 meeting, it could have been used for discussion during the 18 meeting. . 19 Q Is it conceivable that you could have written on 20 the front of it November 24 for 8 (e) meeting? 21 A That is not my handwriting, Mr Carr. /I, . t r 22 Q I don't care whether*it is or not, Mr. Park, it's 23 conceivable that it's written on there, it was w r i t t e n oil ther^ 24 in your file, isn't it, sir? -7~ V r ` " : im`\1 S 1 A It's in the file you handed me this morning. 2 Q It's in the file that was handed to me by your- 3 attorney last night, Mr. Park, which you handed to your attorne 4 sometime prior to that time, isn't that correct, sir? So, v * ,\ 5 don't tell me that it was in the file that X handed you. It 6 was in the file when you handed it .to your attorney, wasn't 7 it, sir? 8 A All I know, Mr. Carr, is it was in the file when 9 you handed it to m e . 10 Q And you don't know that it was in the file when you 11 handed it to your attorney? 12 A X di d n 't check the file carefully before I handed ,%t 13 it to my attorney, Mr. Carr. 14 Q Well, if it was in the file when your attorney 15 handed it to me, somebody slipped it in there if it wasn't 16 in there when you handed*it to your, attorney, is that correct,- 17 ir? V -\ 18 A' X am not saying that at all. 19 . MR. MUSGRAVE; .I*object,[Your Honor, there was no 20 testimony that it wasn't in there when he gave it to m e . N 21 TH COORTs Objection is overruled. , *4 * 22 Q (MR. CARR) Are you saying, Mr. Park, that you did 23 ... \ * 1, not see and consider this memorandum when you had your .November 24 24 8 (e) meeting? 8 jv ft ,( >'h \ y BAYONN,E Vj. 07002J FOBMIL Z*B 1 2 3 4 5, -6 1 8 9 1 11 12 ' 13 .14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 - 23 24 * J* V- 4 " A I am not saying thati I am saying this appears to- '*1 *" fi-i be toxicological information, the type that I am not qualified/ . L ".i*. "* to interpret -- . 1 " >. w '' , , , ^ .. L * h-V ;v - * f"1* "/* ^ T-v r,j Q oh, Mr. Park, I didn't ask you anything about .that;; ; s i r . It's in; your file for a purpose, for your consideration,- isn't it, Mr. Park?' A' It's in my file, Mr. Carr. . Q , It's in your file for a purpose, i s n 't it, Mr. Park? You don't just put papers in there just t o fill up. files,.to make it look like, you are .busy , do you? A No, if it was in' there at the time of the meeting . 3 then it would have been used during discussion among those . familiar with toxicology. .- Q . I t 's in there for your consideration as a member of *. - , * V *^ u ? that committee,. isn't it, sir? .: -*/' ^a '. , *1l-iy| rc' f ` , .* / A If it was present a t ;the committee meeting it would have been for consideration r- > ^ Q . It saysNoveinber 24 for 8 (e) m e e t i n g d o e s n ' t it say that, sir? , ;"<r A , That is, a handwritten note by someone -~ \^ Q Doesn't it say that, sir? A, s It says.BrV7-N-0-V"24. ,. . : *'nV Q Arid that's in yur fil and it's for that meeting purposes, wasn,,|t it,, sir?, s " ' J ' . ' : -9- , = ^ ;> s ' T SJ I A The note could be so construed. 2 Q And you explained yesterday how -- or a couple of 3 days ago when Mr. Musgrave asked you, you interpreted these 4 documents yesterday, and you explained things for him quite 5 capably, didn't you, Mr. Park, just yesterday? 6 A I don't recall explaining any toxicological data. 7 Q Zs this toxicological data? This is analytical 8 chemistry data here, isn't it? But it really is toxicological 9 data, isn't it, Mr. Park, it's called analytical data, but 10 indeed it is toxicological data, isn't it, Mr. Park? II A I don't know, Mr. Carr. 12 Q You don't know that it is? 13 A We're in a technical area here that's beyond my area 14 of expertise. 15 Q It's beyond your area of expertise today, but it 16 wasn't beyond your area of expertise yesterday when you were 17 answering questions similar to this for Mr. Musgrave, was it, 18 sir? 19 A If you could find those questions, I'd have to deal 20 with them, Mr. Carr. 21 Q You do understand what the letters and symbols mean 22 on this Table 3, don't you, sir? 23 A No, I don't. I can see the numbers. 24 Q Well, let's go through it and maybe we can educate - 10 - - k . 1 you* ... 2 A , 1 All right* '` 1, r 3 Q You do know nanogram, the Ng furah/g phenol, you - i' r- v>' 4 know what that means, don't you, sir? Nanograin per gram of 5 phenol, that's in parts per billion* You know that, don't '' 6 you, s i r ? ,r" / ' ^ 7 A X guess X am not familiar with the term nanogram ,8 furan per gram -- okay, nanograms per gram of phenol, yes, 9 X understand that* 10 Q That is parts per billion, isn't it, sir? 11 A X don't know. T 12 Q You don't know that that's parts .per billion? " 13 A X am not sure off the top of my head what a nanogram 14 is * 15 Q Well, let me advise you, Mr. Park, that it does , * >. " ^ i* S r"S f ^ ''lp- ^ ^ 16 mean parts per billion and!that you.know that it means parts ^ V-*; 'jv( v V! 17 per billion and you have seen it in any number of these 18 documents that you've seen in\he twenty years that you have ~ \-f*" ' ` '`' * - d* 19 worked for Monsanto and been a member of, this committee* And . r '.J ( : t .',,'SV* ' 5 *. \^\ 20 you do understand what tetra stands for, don't you, sir? . ; [ 21 A / Yes, I do* ' ; ';J|- ,, " '* .* ^ . ' n- . * , . * ,j, t - 22 Q That stands for tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin, doesn't 23 it, sir? L,,*-r/ \ 24 tS MR. MUSGRAVEi rit No, Mr. Carr, this ier-furaris. - a; L, . y- ' - IV '< -J f I Q Furans, doesn't it, sir? 2 A Furans, yes. 3 Q And the tetra you know is that tetra 2,3,7,8 TCDF 4 is a tetrafuran, isn't it, sir? 5 A Well, this column is just headed tetra. 6 Q Excuse me, my question was, sir, you understand 7 tetrachlorodiben2ofuran, one of those is 2,3,7,8, you know 8 that, too, don't you, sir? 9 A I guess that would be a tetra because it would 10 have the four chlorine atoms. 11 Q Indeed it would. And you understand what the 12 numbers 2-5-5 mean, d o n 't you, sir? It means two hundred 13 fifty-five parts per billion, you recognize that, don't you, 14 Mr. Park? 15 A Yes 16 Q And now when you see that letter B, that takes you 17 down to the footnote, doesn't it, sir? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And you know what the word two means, don't you, sir 20 A Y e s . 21 Q And you know what the letters TCDF means, don't you, 22 sir? 23 A Yes. 24 Q That stands for tetrachlorodibenzofuran, doesn't it. 12 * '/.A"i*1,;i -f V liv *: " \ \ \ rr ; <rfj ' : v.'`' S, ' , \ L> ' '*/' ; ivr;r/ / , , /r** vf~,j V v S A' r/Sv /'V-'1 * . A v - /' v,,,. 7 .-v'"'1 -,S-> .. f ` -*i L '*Y . ' * ;a . ,- S ,'vV' >. 1 -- k #S '*! .v * r-Y* . *.jv *.T'V*if' 'vr.,r .k* --..v " u, i/S' Sir? V-Y' i`'Ki-*`U.;./AY( . - 'r--*``iV;\; J' , r^vY,i;/ `*r'*yV'` -` *'' -V r ;.. Vi s *. , ' '. / ,V' *-*.*V: /' *i'^,- v \ ; / - ^ \'Y ' ; ; ^ *.S'- r _2\ .A' Yes,* * * .' >: ' 'iv-1/. *', ^ P v - ' ./;* 1..'. ; - - /i-, .- 1 ' , * . ' , , '' , . ' . \ \ '* . ' r.. V- r 3.J- Q ' And you knovA.what^ the word were, means , don't you*/ - -; \ *i. BJ* Ni- I h i*4- ' sir? f* 'i v` *j t 11, i ' (' _ : * `W p V * ; ^ ."L / 7 ** * \5; / 6? V8'&' 9, / A.'\ ^Yes. ;" f /' ,`i:/ 1 ,, J, t< ` ^ r ^ ' r^ i *^ J, * ,/ F Q, v And you know 'what the *word present means?/ ,1 ,i'/; 'v/v ` '/ 'A . 'Yes',;_ / ^ ^ v - r*-': /'/' ,v ' ' ,// / f., /; \ j` v/-\ ^t/ lViA/i,. ,`rfi Q , And you knoWt wht the words in the sampis means, ^ '-- ' --v-rs '*. .r1^ '. r,` ; >' i1*`T' .-'" ',?r a . ` -, \ * ' ' >, . 4 iK JIb ! ` i< "Vi `t r don''tt-yvoouu*, s i r ? 1 :: 'A ' - a ' Aiv v: 10 K -y A A-vv - `4 r .. J 't V* " . f^ 1 n ,, 12 13 *4 ; 15 . 11 i .16 ..17" Q -. 'And/you know what the words with this particular ^ 1' "Ii f ' 1 -, \ J ^ ''*? ^iv'1 r ' ' - -t , * -*- ' r * ' # v - 1 > s -L - f * ' . *. ** f . (t ; 4 , *r ^ ^ . a j - A* / rIsomer m e a n s , d o n 11 y o u / sir?A t e M M a W ' teh * " jn) A t e h f A m **.m T. Mm 1 ^ . - *- ..i' , . - ^ . i j . ,-i ' '. '>', 'V'"v* ,AV . X am not sure X dp. in thib context. / ,r'' ',<A7V,'i^.',. l`'v<.*' r` ,J'- -'.-*;X'T-;v.v 1`j J' 'j( . -/..k ''.-'+ -.Ji>.;' ,-'5 f` ' ,J ij -I < ', 11 `.V >'*, Q ' v - D i d n ' t M r . Musgrve just yesterday talk about . seventy-two isomers being V'j..;-. outstandingvand you said -J yes,;that'V-,ss r7 .I ' correct, you understand there are seventy-two isomers' f- /,/\ y . / . :\.J . /./ / ' V v '\ .* s-. ,, 'r" / ;- ^ L'A / / ! 1 ^ :MR MUSGRAVE s'_ ;r don *t ;believe,he'd i d, : itt*,'Carr / */,// 18 ' ' I .believe I had to tali him that" there were seventy-two ; A : T " ,i v ';:/ A - 1 :;.: ; // ;; a/ '1,9/ ',at".1'.' "" isom',e`fr.'ts/'].*'f\1,*r'-'*p) . ' . . ^ vf/'T':./..././ 'r: .*v /1 v'\;y `'-'*?,* ''*V' 11/>..rJ...;.`>-'J,j 20 ' iV*'i.' r`* ` 'r` .''.I ,> . J `^ '/ .' ' \ - / ; MK C A B K : . Well; he certainly agreed with you\thatv.\' V,' ;rA 4. ,, 2V ' - ..that was'a fact. Are you saying that he swore to some^ \ ` / ' i,` / J,P rl r,, ' .'-/ '1` -.1 ..v'-`.'.,,. V'- /t ^ ^ i 'iVU../ '*. .-. 2 2 , ; thing that you knew and that he does,not know? This, man/: ;> :/ (23 - '.`24. ir : tv , has taken an oath to swear' to things that you\tell;ae*\. ''MrV^iiusgrave? / -`/S' : s :\ ^ r - v s ' s : - /'/ :r \ . ' If'r.".. '* ;41 *'v1 i- ,,* - ' -'V- ' i.ft/' \ - . . , > jy / -. - , j.,' .........,.. A - ; / 'A/ ./; ;i3-- /. 1 V 't- .PENGAOC ..O BAYONN,E .NJ, ?if* T ,'/<>*/-T-. ,7 C to*. f.J 7 tV & ' ,<: ..... ' - J'- MR. MUSGRAVE :.;kvl asked him to assume, it ,.Mrv- C a r r . ^ 11. X n /W- > * 7 ,7 ' . -7,-. r -v '2 ; v. '' -1 said, if you assume,that there a r e , s i r / by/doing, - // ', 1 / r ; , ' - -V " `-,... 7 ,* /7 -i 1J* `t_* *' ' V 73 ' ' simple math, would it come to -a particular amount *7, Thatis ; y: * / y */ / , ;/77 v:t '*7 7 ^ 7 & 1. 7 -i v ; -?- / : ' ^ . S' / y the; eame/type ofa's sumption at least sometimes rthat you // . : . - ' ^ v y ..*. *1, Jr t 1r ' . ' , 1 : y' Cl J ' ^ * /\ 1 /; /. ^ : h-` ^ ,/ rh a-v e 1bKse'ena-/!a;ski`ng wvitn-/esses'r'.to*,a" sjs` u -m e / , . . L j,t1'-".r*',1; ' *-"'S ,lit '* ' *< t j' t`i r " .'MRi /CARR: Did you not describe what ' >,,7 ; -j-'i .i" 1 j i,.i ; *L ' k *-- - /.;r fxjTi' ' 1-* . . JJ ' , , t i> ' v^. 2,3,7,8 isomer ; '' 7 *J / ' .8- * -f ib,. >`\r"I4I 1 * l? ) ./;1'3Jv ; `l :r \ i - yp ; '-.is. - , * r- r . ` . ' ji, . > , 'v-* .yv ,. -j ;,V.V* ! ,, 0 t ,* . . -i v. was to /the ,jury the other. d a y , you told vthem how they^ .1r-'''* a>[' <, j/>J 'j:*;' ./ 1'r`/ v ` -, v-a*` f .^`-- J >/. have this/atom; you described the/rings and. how the y . y [ ' v * '! / `.//.jti' r ' i, ,v -i i<`,' . ' . v -/ ^',f 1./ w,cVhtl! orin'e/ a=t-tta'cSh.`/es/ at:dif ry\- : fere %, n''t /p''\l'\av.ic'e.s.,^ 1d.i d n ' t y o1u'-`d e scr7iAb'e* / that quite competently jus t /the other d a y , didn ft '/you /do ; .i' , '*x \ s \ .-,li/'^'<1 ' ,' ji* r that', sir?,. >: 7 > r' l . * . 1 tT-.` . 1 4 7 {. 1 t* * ' > .' .--r.>''.;*..J'-'r?',v ^ / 'i>./-!*! A - ' I don!t know about quite competently. X think I /. \ & V attempted to describe-it* ^ * <' J j /0 ; And you were , ./ diascribing an'isomer /.v',,;;-7'/ : v >c//; *. at that time, // ; V.-ii;: l/ weren?t youVsir?. v;. / 7 / ; . ^////'' .] <vi` ..;:yh '- / /-/ - '/^/^ 1 -1 \. : 16 a y s .r t ;/ *.'L T^ i ' J-y B A T O N N E , N.j. 0 7 0 0 1 F O R A T IL ZA'B y 17 j/ T 18 '7 19/. 20 . 21 - t '-`J 22 23 Q j.Arid you do kriqw what isomer means,:,'and when you' sit -/ /'/ / .-// ( *.c-.;.// '*V ; '/ here and pretend that you d o n 't/.you are lying, aren't you, '` ^ - '- tr / >; ,A ' > / /'L;i`` "/ v / ^ 1 TM` ; -1 7 ' */ / 7/i, , 'Mr^rPark?^/-';. >/1 .i-v\.^ '-v- ' 't ' ! *- ' , ** 4 * ^ 'f , ' 'f i j* " l- 4 r/t* , ^ ^` w- * r * .7 .., * j-' , r|L j *.-n *-; a * . ,-.7 - 1 .. *. , '' " 7 " **'* y *. ' ' A.; ''Hot a;hit;. Mr * Carr.- 1^ dori11 kiiow/what this-, - /*/< -y/ * - v.* v/, " -- , M ' ^ '' 1 \ t " ; f . *' k ,j } , J k. J 7, 1 "* .p '1 r * . s V m ' ' partic-ular i7so1m*/er m"ea n s .-/,?/ .V- / V 7 ,J-f`li ' > , -;v. ////^ -' 1 ' =i,^ J,i "*'/ '^ '` * i'v'r1' ' `*' r'v-`- f ' ,'> '*' - '' ^*' /j\ .Q.' i- You don't .know, .what the words with this ',particular V -i / ` /'/' ./^:///''/'y-, ^ '/ 77r;/ isomer r e i f e i a T t o ^ fX/7 .' * 7 * -I*. ? :>'V- XV;1*m;',,,<-f rR " Which one does i t 1refer to? r: 7v 7 7 .y -7 > ;.** y ,7- . *>,X 1 . A' i^r `''lr \V Ai''l. ''X'**h ' -; " ' u Q Yo-don'tkhovj w h a t 'this, particular ,ismr'refers -V. . r ' ? 1' f.r "- t`"*'.-*t1.J-,,*1t. J S -.\/ 'r?"A1 v ,t r t . > : j1-r . ,\:v*<../j' ^ T -, ; , .,j>,. 2: pto when- it *s in the .tetra, column for -the chlorinated ./ -< ^ .. *;?* 'r~ -/ ;>; \v ' - ./ V-' .-V-1 1 < ^ ; ' '3'' : dibentofuran isomer -Mr Park? , >v ! y - !,. J;\. / ^ *A /.y 7 ' ! -rvJ ' 'j1''* " A J 'V J- -,` .7 -1 ! <-`; _ - y ;^ 1 #**. 'V,4 ! A - ,Okay* !, It *s 1my understanding that a n isomeri is '*aO `%. 5' i 6 "1 .. particular' he/ v '1 ' / ` ' J: . ; . y * t ' ' 7 * `J ' - * ,'t , 1 x ' * y. ' sl whole branch# not a whole category*" : ,v, 1'-V - ; i'.'VP " ,1 ' Q You d o h 't :understand two TCDFs were present; in the ' V,. ! 7 samples vith thls particular isomer # the tetra isomer they ate! ", V V_"V; ' 'l i'^ r ' 'rV V f '' "y r- - V 8/ ^ talking about# t h a t f-s the. isomer theyvare talking about,; isn^t PENfGtO-C..O.BTfONN.k .NJ. 0702. -FORM .11I*B , 9 .. Park? i C:.>' I-' *',. 'r'- ' V , ^ - > ',io / 11 " " ^ .V ^ :; \ 'V ! - > A A I thoughtthat an, isomer v/as o n e ,single d i o x i n o r . , ^ t k\ " * \ r ?! 'A 'r- S "" r "^1 ^ Fr 1 '*i>4*y\'i,r L if'1 A 1/ h< - iv'ri t. '* r^J - y` ` -i . v'"lr,-1'r-^ , *' ^ 'V <* " t. furan. ;; ^ ; ' ? ^ V'? ? ? j - . . . ; - L'i-j" - . -*'* } i ^ -'r *j, l.., 13 ;- 14 :; ' * Q. r: Sure it is#`it most certainly 'is, Mr* Parki An *-v t isomer-is . - ' - /. \ - * / 1-,^' ` 1 '' = i.V j v" *_ yy h* * /j * * 1 "'7c A ^ Then it"wouldn^t be tvTO; would!it, Mr* Carr?;; ' !, ^'fvJh V * , ^ ; t " , '- r ' "^1 y * , r. ^ ~ ,,> ^ _ -* y * y v,s3 . Q . Then you d o n 't underetand^that this is talkiiig about *r` ,/:'* 16:; ''th tetra ^isomer ;as:a 'single g r o u p o f isomers# you don *t ;?.'/ :i-^a/'^jrs...-.. ,1 /171.. ?^, understand that#' when .they use the word mno isomer* hnd >! .V v' ; ^ ^4 18. - di isomer ;they, are talking about ^those isomers that /are I n .that 19- 1 i1 ,v YW i: .* r - if>''i/''^ i/.j'ir *-i// ' / 1 . .* l* c -t * v /<' -'.5 * r- r V 'J-F'i-v-yy w y M -, u i .'7^ r -1 7 . , . , .--, ; y . < >.,. ./;2o! l`i ` ' 'r Jt- ,` `i' y . . 1 f .r , ! Vv . . L - _ ; speaking.* of .single^, isomer.' -'/.'JyW..,:> , . Q- v No/ .it/talks!about two ,TCDFs were present w i t h this ^ *.1 lit I* ' ' ; 22 particular isomer, and you ixnderstand perfectly 'they 'are*; -/./ % -*, 23'-J. I'*'''' , `. talking about the column tetra, aren't .they# sir? that's-where ; . /24*. \ *' the" letter, 3 comes V',77'/-yy ` -* .v /-s' from, doesn't .i t # sir? ,J `* /'-t r/ , t; f/ ; v r*; t ' ' - -is- - ; ' ` A-' n "'.Xv/v :> f, v*v *V #, * ' v . yA>i/, - M ...-,, <V: ;- i'fv ` - / T ' f* ; *1. 1 * . i ' I/ '* J'ff ` ;'y-*'1'. - W - : r>t; f ,.. . f* . y? . v i y > . *f-v . : rA .The. B- i s : o n ]e v e ry n u m b e r'in t h a t column'; `y y rv:-y . V;' f;`" -1 / . >'v. ; ' ^,1 Q I n w h a t 'colum n, the^ t e t r a i somer column , i sn t i ,dfc, ,y , 7 > 7 /,- - : V ,, p ,*v- v V.'i "3 ' sir? ' /* " f " A ,Well', i t ' s ` th e ' coluinn w i t h t h e term t e t r a above i t * , -.' r J '1!I* '*Ar,7*- W r*i J , j, ,,f rr J - *x, ,J -r(--T>._''i.* *. ' p I ^pJ.*' 7 1*^ ` s' ,'r Q c And- that ?s what it*s referring to, isn't it> sir, \ 6 wh e n it says this particular isomer, .it? s referring to' r%'t4^* ,l> T ^'f 7jV '-t e t r a is o m e rs',; i s n ' t i t , s i r ? . - , ' % - . . i f ; i y ' */''* . ; , .v -w ;;' \> yy - v ,* y s - y y t 8 :. . A There could be more than one ;is6inr# I would "assume.; 9* '2 Q ^ . T h e r e are m o r e t h a h one isomer, according to -what j; %' 10;V . ' t h i s (s a y s '.'"'/.It s a y s th e re ra re two l e x e r s t h e r e ; v d o e s n 't i t , ; 11 s i r ? / S / , V ; ` /, ( , :.v- ' ' r . v/=* 12/ > r';.J .AvJ It says this particular ieoiner. J" ' ^ ? /. <; 4 14 ; 15 -'y .,..Q : 1 > A'nrdr"you: /undersrt"t>-a`n.Vd wh^Japrt having' analytic'al " * "^r ,s f* 1 Jr 1^ 'L 1 ^^ 2y ** p tr* ( ' a> \ r " '\ r *J\ ,* j y - characteristics means /' don' t y o u , 'sir? .n - - \ ,r'!- . 1."L. ',*`L V^ > ; '' ' ^ 1 y, ,/-p/ ' / ' \ 1' . believe^ sov/,r-`r - ' f,1 'A I V `r y j ' . -y *- <L J r , ^r'. , , , j 'j 1 -*g r, V J*t*:!1iJr'i'-V y \ 16 * V - :; 18; 19 , .' .jL 1, 26 2 1 -;1 , 7 'g ,,>h* >.y; i-n 11 r , rj 1 ;- 22 / *^``pf v f -. L *'. * J v ^- V ^ J , 23 V the sample KMO5-7024 there, were,'two hundred fifty^fiyo^parts^ ^ ' V; * '! ' 'r ''-'i i`i' ^ v , ' ' w V. ii"J*-\' j 'X' 24, . , \^ per r:-* v ... billion, of two isomers ih - - .:ri" ^ the ; tetra column ' j h . that'Zhadr th'e'-.-'H,1 iA'.' r `r'V, < . PP * . 1 . V I' 2 ' * Ifn . PENGADC..O'BfAONN.E^ .NJ.,1 07002. FORMIL 220 -...t '//*,' '' K ' T'- *''*/V y*j"J,'* * V J f ' - i V ' t Jp * - ` f1 1 *l same a n a l y t i c a l .c h a r a c t e r is t ic s .,, as: th e 2 ; 3 , 7 , 8 /..you . ,.J , j .: 1- yVy, ^ 'y '-\ ; ...7 ;'! r`-^;y *. ,;..y 1 ' ;' -r-r,'t`` =*' vy'yyy j : s` *2; y un d ersto o d ' th a t,, d id /yb ti. hot?? ' ; y ` y-y-..' ;/ , / *' -.V -A \A ` - . / / v . V 'i o . 3 / A I `d id n ' t u n d e rsta n d t h a t / a l i t h a t w e l l . . , f. * ' .1 L<. , , J 'r r .5-, Q.-, 3 / S i r ? V : ; V V; V ^ . r;,.;' - .../ v ,v..*.` V >:* *\v7 v y \ I *' j ' f ? 3 '' , ' f ^ * 'll J '' ` ! - .! . > . " -,1' , .. ... . - a Y-'-Hj *T_, ' A >. - 1; j u s t do- n o t u n d e rsta n d t h is , a l l / t h a t W e il. , I V3 * y 6- ; doh1t d e a l w it h t h i s te rm in o lo g y . '.V-^ i, - t ,"7". Q , :Mr/ P a r k y o u have;been dealing with it for twenty : ^ *y -y -.V. 8. . /.yeare / J You have oy ; 7 - been; d e alin g .w ith . v, r 1: ;^ '/ it ' a ll' the tim e t h a t y o u `,y S fc 1 p V * ,, .9/. were on; th e co m m ittee . Y o u cfe alt it o n the; memos, that V ,( PEN&ADC.iO BAYONN.E . .NJ. .07002 FOIU;* I :L 24.0 10 ; ii w ro te .ahd d is c u s s e d ..2/ 3>7 *8 . TCDP , You used th o se vv e r y word|3 ; ; < y . '. v *' ;*. - ^ ^ * ;y^ MV,,it You are indeed, and you have been, familiar with those very-, / y f v:-y. /:/ , ;,`y ^ v V( " T' .12 1words forv^ number of; y e a r s h a v e n ' t you, sir? ` / s ' . r_ Vy>;--y.,. '' ^(y^\ ;t . y -`f ' 13 *'J ;. ' A " ; -' I d e a l \w ith them o n ly when; th e y a r i s e i n ; a ,in ee tirig ' j * 14 ,;..r t;o f- 1 .!'.../***. c*o.ns-fid-e.r-!].ua;-n ./ ; ''/.y-. ' ,.v- * ' ' *18,(e)../o.b.wl`i.gyavtwio.nj\ orJ, }\`ri- . - ' `.y-V'' ^ `t- ; ' 1 i-T -,'y*'-'* oc*'cvasi^on.all.,y.in','other; !- L'r'"i* *s vs'w:J ,;y**4.:t.. 1 . '."/-,ty . . -, ' , *y -5 'V- i'w - 'k W *V -> i ; -, -K y 1*V 15 ,/ t V ' Jt i" J *'Z F " * J f p ' * ` (_ ^ * nJ .y L 16 ''s ',-t: Q.,';j":-ii'rCiyi'ffhI^h'.Id*-h;^th'Teyj.arb'ls0e/ih1*^ t?hr e ';No,ve/mber^- 24 -meeting.^ -'Nowry:/- r> / v *`"v 17 _ if you had ^ any doubt ~ ih. *, v ypur mind f; /-J; as to ?.the r ** v >/ ,/v 1 r ! . /* meaning of'this''';/ vH='",J*. -?`.r 18 V. ; ; . f ; | y v v y - . ^ y m i ' ;p y p a r t ic u la r e x h ib it th a t you; had / '/ y y y - y :vv> y y / > i n 'yo u r;: f i l e , you/had people. *v. ;'- f e y : '/i'4Ji > k\J th e ra competent to " . ' r*_' 'sV-- yy^%V . , t ll.y o u v /d id n 't yo, sir?.' ' * i-.T.'; ' 'v.*-yy., .' -,*r"i. 1 ?" * ,t,< * J j'' .J y 7T . *l; \,/",Vv>< V^A , 20 , ; a T h e re w ere p eo p l w it h r o s p o n s i b i l i t i e s to d a l w ith " ly pf - yt-, '; >'yy,:.- ,, % M , S' t ' U y'v '. (' . . 1 k;v *' ': t 2i: ' t h i s ty p 6 f in fo rm a tio n -- ` - . c ,r.V \ '' v -.. ^y / * r !- ; y '-r y , . ; . . -y * y - V \ r A . -vv-. ,22; . Q : ^ And you d is c u s s e d th e p re se n ce o f yw hether. 't\h e re w ere 23. /v or .'vy y y. . ^ 1.; y*,- y " ' _ ^' \nf - . ' ;C'---v `. ;j : y*.**., .-1*'^ were id t; 2 ;3 ,7 ,8 ; te ^ ab h io ro d ib e n so fu ran in t h is ,:2 ,'Ard\' 1i;, vVy*,f*- 1s - |; * v y ' ,` A , - .- *+3, sam ple, dld^you n o t,- sir? *' / *..t v '' * `/n.r. \ h' J \ " -r; , r ^, .*F- ' / /1 "1 . - HL h -1 ^ ft. * *w k' ' A-* , !* 14 - ' y ;V ' / ' - 1 7 - / y- " '/ A yi i**1, - -?v ;1: i t*V sf... r1 1 r 'i -2. / 1 .3 V -'v1, .",k; ;- '' . ' 1 'j ` ,* " , 4J 1 A L If we can- look at the minutes^ of -the,,meeting ^ .' ,,- ' %' I ' ' j 1' ` 'JVp"*1' f. . i . 'r ; , r. '*' %, v1* * r , *' ' *.<'*f'iV'1 , Q I ;ask youriot to. look a t it at .this pqinfc V* ,7 ;L ' V V t;''r f: W` ; ' . . '*' '' A , . I c a n \ t recallVpff the ,top of my ;head. V ; ' V Y ../vY>;", ^ 'lv5!';! V ' '` j X r L *'~`i\ '*. ' ''4l'/< ' S'. ' : 7> ,l 7 ^ ; 7i"v* . *7 v`7 * , l V+ ' 7 , Q Well, I want you to recall arid'see if you ,can,;.and.'^ ' * - 1:*vi'.. " * v' `,i` 1 -'Vi- ' .. .-iy f, 'i-.*Vv;-.*7i-; I wi l l .give, it to y o u 'in a nioment r Mr * Park.; `The purpose `of ir,. -p 1-*, 6 that meettiinng was to discuss whether or not you were going tpv;i .--v "'j 'v; ;v>-! / ` \ 'h 7 .. report thhe risks t o ,the EPA, 'this chemical:t o 'the EPA, .isn! t `> A 1^ - -t ^'/Cf `i- * 8, , that corrreecct ;isir?:' i X ,'J'^v<".V ' *. v;' ^ r ' 9,vr ' " 'V'r. ' >'. >;,y`L .1''* i" 'fv, .,A.. - /A/v-j^y^X^refres^is^^memory;^ ; V ' - ,F' ' -f- ^ -p`J.1!t r-^ 1 .;VL' ^*V 10 1 - n -i 12; ' - ' .\ i ' / .'1 \ ` ` ` ' f ' ' "l ' j Y- . !, Q ^K o `, yc>u may ;npt,i$r* 'Park\ > v-~ 17 ; " -' ' 'r . f ^ rT - ^ J.f^ r ' t' 4' - T ' k ' 4A ^\ - 1 f (, i* ' \ c .. , v '14USGRAVE: Object to counsel refusing the, 'V'v: -ri"` ' ' y- -i ' .,- j.. 1 1 ^' ' ' V v i V ^ r V i . l!ij _J ' " J _ , > V _ ' ,. - , \ A /l , '- . 7f-witness,,to see.;a':'document "to refresh his ^memory. Your v v - , P E . N G A D CO.,, B A Y O N N E . N. j.. 0 7 0 0 2 F O R K ,1L: tZ * B ; ' ...Honor, -as unfair to 'the witness, S 7- / ' '' V i ^W , , 1 iJ"4, *51' ' 'i ' 14 ; 15 V . V*'r^!-f;,v\r*>,,TY.HEV'.COOKr'ix.-, Overrule..d./' . ^ , .t ;y ' `'.^ ` r V ' 1, V ?'- * 'i. ' v:, ~: . \.Vri-..*r~'.7'rr V.7*y:*s3,^J-;/1 Q.Cr ??v(M*B-S'V+J-CA'R'R) :>*r,H.Tf-eif'b-ya1ni.1see. it :ri.n .,due, courrse^, but';fto.r `:/y y "J * , J -1*. ,, ' a"-', 1 r . , . * ^ 1 ' *, ^ 1 * v / J ' 'V | . r" , 16 ; ' now I want tor explore what youremember^, about1that meeting U'; 7 /7 \7 7. ./ ,< ;V 7 ' *"' 7 *'*: . V \ l' . 'J k.- -v -:> 7 * 7 7 7 `Ss f 1 V - 17 :' ( Mr. Park, you had this, document and this document'r e p o r t e d ' ;;./ ; 7l8Y .to you1 that there were three;hundred, forty*rfive.^parts, per; :*/ w v ir ;^ (vT J- ;)9: : > " j "^ ^ `' '* - ' ^ 1" ,, 1 t ' A.J , ^ J* * V * V* , ' ' ll ^ ^ ,'^ii ' ' billion o-f TCDF i n. t`hAe-se'?--s>amp-les,, fo"uVrv hundred-.`.Vn.inIe t,een, 'ir7V. '*. j, ^ s 20 V ', . 7 two hundred ^twelve, twortwenty-six, three-twelve', ;ohe ninety;. :t.(` J, ' ,,1*' i' I 1 . ,.1`\ [ -J ` i.V 'i >*' ' J ' ' P1 -r ` ' '21 .seven, one eight-two, ,seventy-fivQr .one hundred seven, seventy, .",`*>/r*. 4 ' ' .1 V'" { Z H - -* a ; ;2?' 23 \ ' '-'i v- ^'-v " 7, .-7 nin .11.L, e t y - t w o ,..ro ne jii^clred7'' -t;'r<h,iirt. .y.-.si.x'.,*`t-ni'wb\. hund..r.ed`rf'awXo".',7/Vvt>hree `i 4*if- A^ j*-.*r hA***1-- A m* j*." 1aa^HJ a3 J l. J _.. i 1! Y' i s^.. . 1 VI'L `-24 - >, I samples, i s n 't that correct, sir? 2 A Those are the numbers. 3 Q And now, there is no question, is there, sir, that 4 this chemist is telling you that there is something in this 5 tank car that has the analytical characteristics comparable 6 to the 2,3,7,8 TCDF, isn't he telling you -- 7 MR. MUSGRAVE: Are you representing that that's what 8 this document says, Mr. Carr? 9 Q (MR. CARR) Isn't he telling you that, sir? 10 MR. MUSGRAVE Are you representing that that's what 11 this document says, Mr. Carr? 12 MR. CARR: Yes, indeed, in Table 3, counsel -- 13 MR. MUSGRAVE: It's a misrepresentation -- 14 MR. CARR: We will see about that, counsel. 15 MR. MUSGRAVE: Because it does consider the entire 16 document, and you know it, Mr. Carr. 17 MR. CARR: We will consider the discussion, Mr. 18 Musgrave, in due time. 19 THE COURT: Objection is overruled. 20 Q (MR. CARR) This table, the chemist is telling you 21 by this table, by this standard analytical method that he's 22 used, he sees that these are comparable to the 2,3,7,8 TCDF 23 isomer, doesn't he, sir? 24 A Yes. He does qualify that with this second sentence. 19 1,. *' l ' ,A >3 : 41 . s *.-4 *; , ^ It- >, ^ ui, Q ` 'v'-J,,. ;1 * ', ' ' v\*'^ ' .- 'r'i`,-?ai'4 ' ***>(. '-\*V;J' Yes / indeed h. does; v But what he* tells you-anti, what '*r'*V.,;f /- , ' '' * -;i",-% ^ " J ` 1i * '*.^'**7 j he reports is that these isomers have the same characteristics ' *r', 'v *- . : *, . ( '1 . v- ^ ' V* '*'**- . i-r* of the 2 , 3 , 7 , 8 V d o e s n 't he, sir? \ 7v 5 '; A 1 Appears; to, be, yes. \ ' `5,* '6 0 And;he doesn't,say in that .table, however, he did. an experimentation and he's unsure w h e t h e r i t i o or is not,, ` '1 : he is not telling you? about experiments, he is telling you v 8 9, 10 .11 ' >; i^A - ;r U*:r A- .* V ;v. -w about 'standard methods used .to!find out .what ia, or is n o t i n g * . . ,, ' v V /~'r 1' ; v . f - vi /*, K'^V your,,ch)e''m''iY'cJ'al-s/ `iistn*'.*.Xt; hJ*1V,sirr?J . ' 1 *'Y/ ." ''V ;i..v V - f ;r - - - . " ' 1 ; ' A . `I don't know if, it's ^- /--<vi i-'j f. I, f`.-'i'1-rih > ,y:i- i standard .s. . or not. . -'vi.'-,-'1;.r 3/\ - Q Well, he's got it in his table and he tells you V ;- 12 V 13 that he's having the analytical characteristics on a packed ` , ' :V r' ` ' , ^ t, f .* J . ,'-VtJ .iji. , . GC column comparable to the 2,3,7,8 TCDF N o w , he did use";'-; , BATONN.E ;NJ. *07002,, FON'.MIL 2*B 14' 15* ; 16 r , 17 other capillary* columns in a n ' effort to differentiate, and theifo. 1 ^ \ .v - ' J : h* 1 * ' Jj h a 1 ; i, 1 t *j "' f .^ l ^* is no question;but what he says that.; But what he's'telling v; r ' ,^ 'v 1 you here, in the standard method used there was these two t ^ TCDFs that,had comparable; analytic characteristics to 2,3,7, .15 \ 18 * 19 ! ?0 ' 21" TCDF,. didn't he, sir? ' - ''V/- V/*' .-, A , That appears ,> - . >' '/-/v ,, to be what ** he's saying, ,, ' . !; v ' / V / `.v yes. , ^, V *, v- * - * \ ,t t- s Q ; Nov/, would ypu please refer to December.X'4 1981' 1 memo, M o n s a n t o 8e ;Exhibit 882, in which you all, considered .22 '`23 ; 24 whether or not you should report to the EPA^ under'Section 8 (e). You can now refresh your,memory, -A ''..-Thank you, Mr.- Carr0 rV r rj ^ , " 20 - Mr. Park. v ' W,. ' * - "J t, - x-^ * v jr-}., iV1i*. : PENCADC,.O BAYONN,E .NJ, 1 ,2 3` 4 5 6 7 8 9 j 10 1 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 , 19 20 ` 21 . 22 23 24 A- y / j " * * ,' , ,i Q 1*11 direct yourfattention to the third sentence in the third paragraph, quote, also it was noted that-no " /A 2,3,7,8 dibenzofurans were found in the 2,4-dichlorophenol; Levels up to one hundred parts per billion 2,3,7,8 tetrachloro- d i o x i n h a v e been, believed.to be safe levels by some toxicor > A nAAVAA; A logists of 2,4,5 'T, end of. quote. Do you .see that, sir? ; 1, ' '/ -A->:Yes> -- .do'.- tv7 A ' A ' / ?.-V -*7 ^ v . A A AA: A ;-AA i i i.u '-th V ' - t * ' - 1-^ * * *' ' ': . .Q nd you are stating affirmatively that no 2,3,7,8 ` .V ..fV- } -U ... <. : . ' ; i V dibenzofurans Were found, in 2,.4rdichlorophenol, aren't y o u ffs'.iW?' .. A That's what it says. . .. Q And ` in J fact, the . . -. chemistry reported a;'V 1 to you in this*']*. '' , <t J ;' oe September 8 *-- September 2, 1981 memo. Table 2 that hundreds of parts per billion of that which is similar to 2,3,7,8 TCDP.i/ ^ / t. J was. found in those chemicals 2,4-dichlorophenol, wasn't hey A it was apparently determined that this was n o t i V > // , -M 2,3,7,8. * , '' 7 1 ' ;C\ c. Q Excuse me, did he report that to you or not, .sir? ME. MUS6EA.VE t My objection to counsel examining y this Witness about what was reported in this d o c u m e n t ' for reasons I previously stated is to be a continuing objection. 1THE .`COURT: Sure, it's so noted. A 1 What page was that table on? i/* Table -- Page 5, Table ,3. - 21 - 'V1,1A / 1 ' '*-v'l . ,i 7 * .,f *7r Lh'i*.2***.\*1m\m-'L*./. V<,v.v-, _ * *^ ' 1>-' J* C 1/ , r` > ff ' V-,,r*\r> i '<* '. . . i ' I A ' All it says there is that two TCDFs were* present. 'i L 2't ,q 1 y@s* . Go on f what else does" he say? \' 3 'I Well/ rit has with this particular isomer having;//.', . */:,r- V`.- f.'A. ;l / -*-u---\;*;*: i'-`: - ` - - . "M : /"' ,,1 4 . analytical `"characteristics on a packed GC column comparable 5 to th*ie. 2`,3,7 ,.8 jT'CpF.v',4,,fT'hva.t' byi^"n.p means to my mind would ^say .A- r6 , that 2,3=;7,8 TCDF is/present/ There may be a number of things 7 . that have comparable analytical characteristics. . -,v- s Q Well; I won't quarrel with that. But you can't ",/ , 9 , say positively/ can you,; sir, that no 2,3,7,8 dibenzofurans 10 ' were found there, sir? -v * . * > \'r i i ' t rti*'vV II : -A If additional information indicated, so, 'yes/ ` J* V 12 Q And you have got additional information that says, . 13 in these samples it wasn't found, sir? Do you want to look / i tV/';. 14 L ,^ L * * * , . ' S' -ib* 'k at the exhibit that counsel has been hinting that you should . ' v `- F '' \ . . , ~ \ /; A *\ 15 refer to, and I'll be glad for you to look at Page 10, where/-a f?5 *'.V 16 t hey talk a b o u t 2 , 4 - d i c h l o r o p he n o l analyses. 17 /c-,' \ (Pause)' ' a -- >' .* r " -.J ' - - -L p- 4 r* ** p . n.4 18 19 t ''-f.'Q A J' .\ / fH a^Tv e ; _ Yes, L* ' , y o u t u-r n e d 1to I have; / it, p T s'i r ? ' 'r ` i * 1 * `^ .c: * * ' *V*^r / `,t *l\- / . ' *\\ ' :20 Q ,, In* the .second p a r a g r a p h it says -- t h e 1f i rst : 21 ' '.^ i . V .' , paragraph, I t says, the results.of the analysis of the ` ''-'J 4; 22. 2 , 4 - d i c h l o r op h e n o l s are g i v e n in T a b l e 3, doesn't i t , ;;Bir? 23 .24 At the -top; the first -. paragraph there, * , -- .^ first sentence? 1 * ;*3;*^*4 * .t 1 : h Yes, it does.', . 'v ' -> 22 - * -V " PENGAOC.'O. BAYONN.E1 .NJ.' 07001 ,,FORMIL 2.4B ;; >, itfi *>' kl t* ij . -, .\i-_T , - uf^.,r , /- I ^1LJ**/;vO7j,V*'-'">>**':.v-%V/".*1` , r 1- ` A ' %. ''V^A-jA'r-iE:1.rW'-''-V .V',=* *r ,, , /. 1 ;*Q] *rr Tabl ?3 ofrthef .tabled we are talking^ about ;>i s n Tt ./ si ' `3 4;, it, .sir? " { w-/ / ^\ ,> -- * /\ rf'.y, "-./ :`.1 ," 4 ** Ji ., ; -<}\.'\ J.-*-'1, j, v,` * '- / ' ; J . / / > . .-i ' . ' ' J' ' ' Yea'-,'; .-it ivr-.fs .,,. 'Vf-:-r v--?:" .. -jj . J; ,. . - v *. V 1*- '` yPA */ Q\;`V In !the^middle rof the second paragraph it says, V. ):/. / ,5 /. however, one fact of Table' 3 stands out and that is the 'J 6 ; presence of high levels o f two TCDFs one of which has analytical PENG6C..O n*VONNiE .NJ. '07007 FOSMIL 2B 7/ 8; ' 9/v characteristics, comparable to 2,3,7,8 TCD F *, Now, t h a t 1s , ?\n ' - ' 1 *r,'` r . , ---.y v\'tl exactly what he said at the. footnote; for Table 3, isn"t i t ,;, '/ v/1. ; sir? 10 . A;, Sir, I was looking at the third paragraph, it ."* < y 11 12 ,13 14 . 15 appears to V* >r. ' 7. ;'* v. \ 1. '\l \ ]?, Q / Mr, Park, we will get' to th' third paragraph in & .* moment. If you, d o n 11 m i n d , direct your attention,/pleaser/ i y +V -V.- -*; to the area that. am asking you to look at* - \t - ' A ':;r; -/ V Okay, that was what, Mr* Carr? - %r,*'.u; ;/ i6 \ 17 '' 18' V 19 " 20., \ MR> ;CATOi "; your Hon^ would you direef the witness i -'*r '>a- . * r, 1 * t.. * ..` 1 ' ` ~^ * . 1 . * -V* .to lieton to the question that X am asking so X heed,;not ' * i -* , * / *,,*" j`" ` 1- ` * '. '. -, vi i i *,. 1.t .- i*i*,:-t; b* . 4-i repeat it over and over again, /^ v^ ,r- Jr" r J.` * ? V , j* J ', 'J j ,> , r i .> /Vf . j . * 4J # i i k , THE COURT: I thixik you have to/pay better attention - ' '',v*,. .** * ;; 1'" ,.'F *'r _ ' *:? **5' to t h e ;question, Mr * Park, there is no `heed for that */' 'J r` S ^r 21 K Q r (MR* CARR) Mr . Park, in the second paragraph the rr \ - ' 'y 22 x .-V.v' chemiet says, however, one fact .of Table 3 stands out and that., 23 ' r r- ^/-^ /'j/1 /'- ` ** .*' '- --* *' -. t: > , v, \ ,if . .v v$ A ii . is.the presence-of highlevels of;two TCDFs, one of which has / 24, analytical characteristic^ comparable to 2,3,7,8 TCDF. " And . > ' .. .". "" . .,`:."v-.. -?t ` t. . 'i '*, -v -'' --.2-.3 *v . J' +,,+--' L- ' ***-h'-'t ** v \ i - 4 -iifv ] 2 t 4. * 5/ 6. 1 `/ '8 1 '9, - V.v, f,v.* \ A *''/Vft' ' ' j V''L ''V'.jrf'.'^*1.'' y r I^KV; C V ''*1-?*. -v ; r*^.\V-1V'rj*/Lr. 'v |`I"> <r r'-Jfi"'i5V-S1t r , v h W / v u ,, ?v<;; 1Y ,5V`V svIV--* ^ '' ,' *' m. ,, "*^. r / p ~ L- ' <. * < it, s i rr-*-.?. ?i.V*t.>1'*1S->, .`i t t!s;';iVip-V-;? ifyf T\,.v *cK*"'J' -'``Ia*" - ' " K 1' - ^ '. J '' j ,` \*.^'*i''>"*c,v .\ 1 ' ''\ `" v . V i * V V u'' r ` V * T... < / J'v4.*.;4 . ^ A N o t exactly, b u t t h a t 's some of the same w o r d i n g . u ->V--r1 Q It me a n s ; t h e V s am o , d o e s n 't / i t f sir? .*i . -< . ' if ` , -,* f r r fc *,,-,< * y r , 1 *V ***T, i t 't i '' V* X; d o n 't K n o w i f ;the m e a n i n g is the same o r not;. Mr. Carr* Q VA Q .i *r F ' r /;* ;Mr..-ParK v- .v -` \y ; ' *..* /y . ///. V /; r:"Th,e','wordiing ha*s-*..7^'an'*a'lytJical* 'cha-ract.e4ri.stics -- : > r . ^ - ,i tm r . ^ ,* f d. * * ^ * , , ** -/Mr' Park, you are obviously an intelligent a n d * * . w i1 DA y o n m e , N L J. 0 7 0 0 1 * .'F O R M I L 1 4 0 t%A* ,10 well-educated man,, experience in .this,fieldf having a . / ' - -i * 11 v responsible position/ and are you telling'us that the meaning i r rJ * * '/[.- ` 'J ' 4 rJ; y>'. t " V V V ^V rp. , ^'. '... * v .12-`.-I ,of that sentence that X road to you is not the same meaning,,- ^ > ** / v 1.' ; / - / . . ' V v v - v */'"' '? / . 13 ' as the-footnote/that's at the bottom of, Table 3? f . '/ 1 i- .v'; ' / ' : 1/ \ . 1' _v. ' ;'i;4-, l.- , A . No, I eun hot telling you that at ail; Mr. Carr. r. V . ` lis tt , ' .v! . ;\ :;'r* v r i Q ' T h a t 's exactly what you did say# Mr... Park'. 1 - .. '/;. ? .. 'x ; 116 i j; '';'H0:f n6* ; ;/ v - '/ ' '['*> J'*'" j"'Ai*->:t n' -`.-vVi; !- V ` .'32 V '^i' t^iw / 'i . -r 1*7' ,18.;:, 19.; ;1 Q, Nov;, Mr. Park, he a l s o p o ints o u t t h a t he uses ;/ J *1 - * ' ^ ^ ' T' r ^ f^ V * 'ii \ 4- ' ' : p-v J'P ^ "V *\ t_- , .- f Figure 5/ doesn't h e / sir, to illustrate .that this* is so, .y * fj 1 a ,^ ( * - ' ^ ^ J*j .Jthat th-eyJ4 d' oI- 1!h,afveKthe same ,cha*4racte,ris"!t2ics, d o e s. n 11 i" + h"e, ;sir? ** ' ' V r?0JVk " He says that in, the s e c o n d ;s e n t e n c e h e says this,, is * J ' y '/' / - .21 i 1" / S v .'?;v V\ r J \ ^ 'V-' - illustrated In Figure 5 in which the, analyses were performed v z'- v / ' / //.j'-:;.: ; /, ;\r:i -22'' bn the SE-S4 capillary `column *adding t h e J37-CL4 2 / 3 ^ ,8 ^TCDF. "iV 23;* ,24 , to the sample/to assist in the qualitative identification, r * , . ` J- % 1 ' t'- !. 4 - 1 / 4, - ' . 1m L v 1` ' 7 r '' ' * l * 1" * * .i d o e s n 11 he say; that:, sir? , , ./ / ; tr-+- <'a-0: r 24 '^ i 1 ` ' .-,1'' - O, ' 7 </*?.v : 1 -, / ^ V ' T ,4,\ i i-1 - - , , * *'**.* '.* 7r p . = ' \ ,. -l -/i - / : j ' / . ; .1. /.->.*-'!*>4" ,, ' * ,,`.:"i ' ^* r , ' ,,. "V'.''1- </" . , /. `,t;v j . '* ,"1 ` , .. ' >'.>>;Sf'..v ^` I ,, -, --v - t...'- I A . He doe*s '/ r say;that. v -// , . . // , *r *V '* "^ ^ ",1 "Y. ;/ , /.>/ . . - ,/ 1 *` ? 2.7, ' ,.Q ^ `, ` ' > J' t 1J ^ .'*` r" I', ,S1 .;And that tells u s , tells you,, as a'member vof/the, , `'3 ;^ y . / ; V /'y , -/.-v'/V-V:' /. * committee, bhat he d i d second test to confirm;that these 4 4*' S vyr P E N G D C O ., ' Y O N N E .^ N .J. 07001 fO B M "'IL . 24 B :" V . were comparable to ;2,3 ;7 ,8 Z-DF, .did .he not , sir? ' - : -y |*\ >> M- --V\ ;*v/ *' " -'* 7 . 'FV-J ' / '* ' / / ' '//*' ; s . 'A ' Mr. Carr, X really don't know. Looking; at t h e v;:- J &VSZ'. /7i.'i- ,_7 -*> 6, , #1r 7,V --fiLn'rext sntnce raisoe confusion / V; Mr .'Park/ I have asked you to .direct your attention. d 'L ` . .'' 1' ` - . ; -1 - " ' r- r,\y 8 th .Courtsha^,instructed;you to direct your attention to .what ; \ ,' '9 1 10 ;i; am asking y o u . . .Will you listen to the qustion that am - ii. `. Z.asking *`*, 1. -ir , you. */ ? V'' v `. f-s ,it V ' . i.` v* * 1 '" <j' & , , * * 4` 1 T '` r f 'W ( ^ fc ^ J% * J 'r - , * 7> . ( , -'1 J' . h, [ - , . *a ,L w \ A:/ M answer ws I don't know'* I don ?t know what is /v/>\ :: `rr 3 / ` '''--- r_i A - ;v- ;'/^ 1 'r- /< '\ - y '> ` 13 ,, . ' 14/' meant 'by;.that. -it says, t o assist; in the v> Q- You'are going to. the next sentence a g a i n .; X a m. _ *y ,V ( ^rr> fv!r1- ' ;' - '7^fL. ,s going, to direct your, attention to, that sentence in a moment, ^ j-'"li1f,i>->1 15 16 J . Mr. Pa r k r and we* 11 get along a .lot faster if'you would \ please listen to what I am asking you I s n 1t it t h e .sense of . J.r1,'-- *,-i* ^ J, /r'-:vS'' ^ J I7V . ;i8 ^ *4f * -- J V -, J1 19 iwhat he says in. that .sentence X just read to you, sir,'that v'' 77/'M s 'j77- '' - `I , ^ J Ki 4 1 L - rr , J,, 1i . , '* * ' '^X1- > i< t * ^ ' Y * r ,< *r T , t. * 1u ^ . ,**r* he illustrates the. fact that there are high, levels of \two, L^- ]TCDFs one;of which has^ analytical characteristics comparable''.; ' ` \ 20 21 - 22/ ;to 2,3,7 f /TCDF- by doing'the .analyses that he' performed^bn -:/*"'/ 'the SE-S4/capillary column? // t; $ | \ 1, T, " r ^ F ` . ' ''pi*-. ///. ^ . .ir- ,*V'. 1-ii i:Vv' 'f, A . I ,d o n 11 know if that supports the, other- or not, ':Mr*//` " 23 i' , , , . ' 'I 7' [Carr* 7; t " " ' : 'r It appears"to me r - : t`. " . '`" ' .^ * r ^ ti- ; , ,** . -, > - . ' 24 Q L;Doesn't he use fche word this is illustrated?' ' ,v i. . O .....^,, r ^ ." *"w 'rt. 25 --.7 11j ; ' ' "' S's-r . : ' ;// j:^ Vtr^ ,, ': ---t*- --=* s '.+1 r i.f. * * i-; ` * * > S L . \ j \ 1 A In Figure 5. 2 Q What does it mean to you when he says this is 3 illustrated, Mr. Park? 4 A This is -- I guess it would be an illustration, that 5 he refers to Figure 5. 6 Q You are using the word I used. What does it mean 7 when it says illustrated, it means shown, this is shorn, this 8 is demonstrated, isn't that what illustrated means, Mr. Park? 9 A It could mean. 10 Q Sir? Isn't that what illustrated means? Demonstrate 11 shown, Mr. Park? 12 A I guess it would be -- yes, shown. 13 Q All right, Mr. Park, the next sentence that you 14 want to refer to from this figure it can be observed that at 15 least two TCDF isomers are present one of which coelutes with 16 the labeled 2,3,7,8 TCDF, you see that, sir? 17 A Yes. 18 Q S o now he's saying again that one of these isomers 19 coelutes with that which is labeled 2,3,7,8 TCDF, you see that, 20 sir? 21 A Yes, I see that. 22 Q Now, I want you to assume, Mr. Park, at this point 23 in time that we have had testimony in this case from others, 24 that when they see other chemists, organic chemists and - 26 7V 1' h > -2 f-,'*r'-fV\*.ft-* ' ,Otherwise; when - ,./'jL .v they see the word;'that ,\ '"'V'Vv * A.'S;i it - * coe l u tu eis'V.wi>Vt>h.*' tK'is 2,3,7,8 ^ ' 7,,V^ (- that they.understand t h a t t o mean that.they treat it as,if it :n . ' _ `F,'f>1 . ,r.'' ` ( ../ A 7 - , , ,*, , - 3 is 2,3,7,8; "that it should be treated as if if i s 2 ,3,7, 8 , ' ;;; "/ ,, \ " ,, , , *'`'Y-'^v'v;. 7-7 ''\ 7- V 4- because they cannot- be more specific than that and they, want J V -j v vv:. "V ; " v, V '/ ' ' *', ; 5; ,,to bK ea t,,n_i 'Jt,Kha i rsafea ^si_de.'*,* ^; *TihKat '-'i3ff' it 1lAton4otkas 1l3iVkae to eIdiiuacVk a'anind13if<rtJ,fft p,' p- I \ '*p ; . "'5 * j ' f ' 'r "V J-'r. 6 walks like ,a. duck ' *.. <_'- ,JjV' j and it quacks like a duck, r ''s`Ai''J, 'Vll'"',-*.V. I ' ,'"i`7,'. ^ >'` they \, are r'> going t '* -, Vi O ''V ^ : > v. **- . !- ,7 treat it as if "it is a duck;- W o u l d y o u assume; t h a t ,statesjet> :`'.8-1 M r . Park, f r o m this p o i n t forward? - _ j,- 1 / \v .9 O I n t h e absenceof information that' your question?,". ' ' '* ' /r""1 * f T ^ ^/ */ i ' '/r-*''(i( to the contrary^ ,**.^*- ^\ - '*, jV ^ Is\r-rf-*'KH;14'lr.'.,,yrr`*:.!V,t*Cri*1'-t\"f' 11 . Q '.Wo, X : a m as k i n g y o u to/assume t h a t t h a t is t h e ' n ^j, f\ AU 1 r r >r "i V J" ".T* ` ' .*'*'> / , ' ; ^'y f: 'l.v . ^ r 12 e v i d e n c e in' t h i s case, t h a t i s ,the sworn t e s t i m o n y ,of Monsanto*'5f,- 13 c h e m i s t s in this c a o e , s i r . . / 'v v,: , : ]i . , - ; _/ \ 4`''1` ,14 F, , r M R 1M U S G R A V E : ;W e l l ,j V o u r Hdribr jr,the g u a l i f i c a t i o n s f 'l -p' ' ' . y:'* ry' 'v f , 7 \ (. 1 15 v : ,t h a t the w i t n e s s g a v e ,' - i f M r . ..arr w o n 't let h i m -assume,7 "-77 *,* r ;- 77 ,;i r v. \ 16. I, thihk i t 's a m i s r e p r e s e n t a t i o n o f p r i o r testiinony 'Qh;.;v , f " * J f r- . #S ^ > ^ ` ' '' 1 , ' v ^, ` *X - V . " %. 3 V ' ' *'` * TV ^ ' V ..--3 ,,sJ *' '' l p ' ' * j ^V '; r +* m * v / 1 WJ. i'. <r-* % j ,i i . '17' / : this tbpic, a n d it.Vs an i m p r o p e r q u e s t i o n f o r ' t h a t reason. 7 .- 18;'"' TH E 7C O U R T i.- Overruled. ; '<\%>\dLvv :- ' 7 r v v / t r-*f \ ^ s ' t|" 7} ;7. * r M`> i -7 ' - .*i"y%r. b * o n n e : n;j . 07001 j ' fo bm `h. tI4 8 20 7, t2 1<`. 22- ' V."-.t(.t-V J.vta'" 23 '' 24, X ^ -7- =- 7 7 'V . 5 % v 77' ,r r, 7-_A `:-7 H e sas, h e i h d i c a f s V t ha t the i d e n t i f i c a t i o n is ^ ' V* .**',.* , J"t`rr'"'J/A lr'i-V. 1 .J*'!-' S-'.-i'-J W W - p-I. K-; ,,,, . :: -, -, : .. .. -, 27 - J- ' ' :. V' '- ' 1 v,'ViVi*:*.0 >,V' E*. X.; , 1 i y* ' , a """" */ f . yy , * 7 r 4i f 11 '>rT rV rr ' /;' .3 . ' 4-' , >. s ; .6 ' >r ` 7 *>?( i;:- :'c ' i/-Cy >,,`*? *% rJ, 1 1, important. ` v ,5 ' - Hf,'.# , .v v , v-<. 4 . v> Q ' And, yoti know from being ,bnr;this committee that it's \ '* - -' a . *- * -V, ' * - ' ,V `j/ v s'1/, ,: ;\ ( , l'-, * / iV-1''x, -- .A ,- v- A ' important because if it's t h e r e i t is a highly toxic substanco ' r * ,, . ' > 'V ' -'V or at least you've been told that it's a highly toxic substance - , / r'**- V j ' -\ . ,J' ' ' ' , and it may affect the people to whom 2 ,3-dichlorophenol might i ' >Vv'_ ^ --"iA- -'ji , come in c o n t a c t . ;,You. u n d e r s t a n d that' t h a t 1s , t h @ r e a s o n i t i s o ;*,1 s` * 4 f i1 r > t*,i" \ 11 j, i ? f<, ? ^ fi t 1 * t, 1 ' ,r ' !, :.T,' i j i1^'s 7 \f ' .^ - j * 1. - *, -S .y ri ^^ import amt, d o n 't you, sir? V^ Vl 8 : h I- am not t h a t ,familiar,with the toxicity of the. furaits. * \ >91 J ', JO .s - - ''* -J : "'-m * : , ' - v ,wr>; ' Q ' X want you .to assume heh^ Mr . Park #:that others have testified in this cade .that furans axe highly toxic f v i*. f %\ < > / ` ' 'll-: > '?' ' - ; 1?'. ' `-14* '.2 , 3 , 7,8 . TCDF is, highly AtoxicV close to; the toxicity *of 2>'3r7 8* ,dioxin.'/'Would y o u .`assume that/ please, sir? ?; * - ,* : - ' \^ 1 / ,v_f j. * *i A 1 ,/ \ A Very 'well.. 1,-:' -\ ' ' "` ^ ; '' v",T"V ' >!* Q t o d he* says b e c a u s e this i d e n t i f i c a t io n was importanti .., >/- 15 he r e p e a t e d r it/* d i d n ' t he, ^sir? '16 \ 17 ' J . 18 ,,19' 20 Sr 1 ' :. 21 *, `' A: v" X e s V \ , i ,y * -''-', " f r*l - -` j 1- ' ` .r ' j---t Q r. A n d ,the m a s s s p e c t r o m e t e r wa s :now o p e r a t e d in the \ " *' 'i *1 / .J' '! ^_ ' V, "i ' V -/ 1, > * , I , - *< *.I1^^. . j /'f r> . V" ;i o'n m ,, od e ^rather`* : t-ha.n** i:'t"*h*e^ se ,; l // e - c `t`e d; i'o* nJ1'm: o n i t o r i n g 'm od 1. ^ a n d :it*.; ' 1. 1,', ^ ' --'C' ji'v Xu: r'; 1 ^ x\ r'/ ^5- was carried1:out ftp determine whether there was any other \f . rit Jh"`| (,`V fV,` vL-s *'\r-V'w/:'i -i - . * . .ti/- - . j `',, x / ? ' n , * }'i A v r . , \ nraimnunrlita ;yya 1 1n u4 4>Vi .'rX' . : 'v iFPilt? aniQ j- j* 1,^, 'Xm.i^*!m *. ,?*/* - t L'1 .- 22 / 'I:/* 23 24 .`A;,x;?. W ellyoutmissWd-;;a`,wprd,. Mr.. C a r r . `He s.aid i t was- ^ n o w operated i n the s c a n n i n g m o d e ,r a t h e r than the% s e l e c t e d ion, ,T.* *> monitoring mode. i. 1 - 28 - j, f ^ ** ni- ^ BAYO N N E* N .J , '0 7 0 0 * *FORM^ IL"'2 A B .. * X .i - : AX. . x I-1/ .1./ * f ' A X' - %v X 1., A* '/XJ ; , r. r ' i -* J \y *. ,y-ri.,j.- 4*.^*i'XPr{'S.i 1; Q ' A n d H e / d i d that. * 't j , c >r . ,,,, _ v r ;/ x r , x x eA-'^<'wth'efXt h1le'^ir X 'an-y *i'f`ej " \ , '2. j '3 otherr compounds w e r e ,coeluting, withf.the TCpF jand^thus c^niUlse^- 1 y ' "* ;n ' X ' - X X X ' .V ` X X ' j; X ' :XX s. .. X X X ' 'the o r i g i n a l ,a n a l y s i s , d i d n 't he, sir? 1 * % * / > , J'i.XX :' <> . .T> * _ [ ' *i '* i ir' r" tr s - J * * `~s r * T% '-J*,* f + 1 V ' ; 4 L ?r : ' v6 '/ / xX 7 ! ' ' . A X Yes, he does;say that. P' A- f.1 17 i * - ' TM , A.t f F.J ' '1-r.J'tO'':>fV"4 H ; .* . , Q. ' A n d t h e n he goes o n an d -says norm a l l y it's h o t K - 1 \ , - '* ' " '"l 'Vi'' ' 'j ' . ^*' , l T>'y-'>-^ (' * ` \ _ V poss i b l e t o do^; t h a t on ;a r o u t i n e b a s i s V , J 1. since "' we. k n a w ''i f 1j r"iU" exactly %V -; -' ... .'n ' ^ "*r` y --N. 'v. `v '^ * ?"v',X J 1' '' ', v'- ; -,1,''r; i X*'XX: . y-<v-y. 1- v .v w h e r e to l ook this .analysis w a s : p b s s i b l e #; i s h * ^ c o r r e c t s > PENGAO C O .. BA YO N N E, N .J . 07002 FORM - R ,24 B ;.x" '"^V sir? ;' `X * 9; ; / ' r /, V : X [ ",-'/.v.' ' *`- _ ^ : .r-! V J n ; . >'a . :L1- .. -* ' f i . J f1 J f-." \ ^ } i _- i ; y 1 ; j }>pV . y e s;;, . v- -, \j-,*-','*. y'^-L' X r ;< n,;' I s n 't - t h a t w h a t h e said, sir? i ' . YV '. '\ ,L .y Y e s , . x J,:, - t ` ' * ,r * V,, -, X Q r * -/- 1 i ; \ v. . . t id'' then he goes on to say. that-the mass spectra K;<. * . k / '] 13' of. the TGDF which coelutes with1the 37 C 1 4 -2>;3,7,8-TCDF;,is |v % xC.K.X-,`v;' ' X`-. JX'4.A;*\, -/ . * / , : is J l. . 1J ` 4* 1 > `t *! P +* r _ p J - ^ * 11 f l ^ th t ( ihi L > ** L , .shown in Figure 6 , and';;tliere is Figure 6 ' [ ' " > 1 v. ,. .,' ' '`'*. - . ,. ,; 1 ^ jf t ^. ' ' sir? Paige 13? J t j V a ,1 *jl, * i '1 p # there It , 1 i *' 1 .* sn ^ ^ 't ^ C t hi* e'I*r^? e|}`j*,^"|*"*: 'f'-4t,W i '` ' ` 1,1 J ' *. ,-X ^V % I ' 11 - f >x*X-/ X " y ",t1(.*'J . : fWf >.1'6 r; ;ores r;;u /^ >- n X " f' -^ .17- ` tf ,-tli n. , r ^ t; tj - ^ x " . `[-p"-p'X (f-v *v" ti'-'v -,V '- ' ' ' * , i <- JQ 11 * >A n d ,h e -say s / t h e *s p e c t r a .m a t c h e s .t h e s p e ctra of ^ 1 " * ^.1 ."^iv.v ,4 / ' .ri i Ji .t " 1 - ' ^ V 1;, ^ ' "if/''; ... v/'.' / T C D F a n d shows n o possible interferences, doesn't he, sir?. v "A *- - `19 / J ,f j,,;,r x' f': T' * A p ^ Yes;.:. 1 ` \ .* " ; A, - ; /"'"'i v r- ' i * `. *' 1,f *' :- >J1 '`X .Xx,' '; < * -k '-*vv-*V*rfs. - 20 ; Q / ^Sd/ t hus' f arcin -this/paragraph, 'he discusses the 'facti- X ; 21 V ' , ` r'x;.x: X . - X that h has run ...>XJX perhaps four '- x v different ^ v ;-fi . V tests to.-confitm^Whether f- - . '^22* f. or ' not t h`is is' 2,3-,, 7 f'8 TCDA1F , a n' d. each of- t' he' sVe. a n1a l y's e s andI--. .t-i , * if'. . 23r : , X; : .` *- -:y'1 tests, show that /X X T ` ^ . : v ' it' is/ isn't; that correct,., sir? . .-X/X ` X f X . ; X .i. . ; ' ; . 1 ..x ' - i-ar 241 , X ' , MUSGRAVEi Object, .Your-Honor, that's a -X X . - X - /.- ,i- 1' ' .r 1 ' ; f`X .' J- .29'- X- X X ' 1 mischaracterization 2 THE COURT: Overruled. 3 MR MUSGRAVE* It*8 not a test to confirm whether 4 it's 2,3,7,8, it*s a mischaracterization of the document. 5 THE COURTs Overruled. 6 A If I understood your question correctly, he does 7 say that the spectra matches the spectra of TCDF. 8 Q And shows no possible interferences. 9 A That's correct. 10 Q So thus far in this paragraph he has confirmed 11 that report in Table 3 and he has told you the number of 12 that he has done to confirm it, hasn't he, sir? 13 A I will assume so. 14 Q Now, the next paragraph he goes on to tell you what 15 else he did to confirm that this was TCDF, doesn't he, sir? 16 A Yes, he's continuing the analysis of the TCDF. 17 0 And he ends up, gives you mother Figure 7 and 18 Figure 8, and he ends up that paragraph saying however, the 19 major TCDF isomer in the sample still coelutes with the 20 Label 2,3,7,8, TCDF, but an enlargement of the chromatographic 21 trace (Figure 8) reveals that the peak in question does not * 22 exactly coelute with the labeled internal standard, doesn't 23 he, sir? 24 A Yes. >; 30 ;; ,`',1.*'-Vv,I',-\. i -H *f t u. fl' h i i I * . ^ ' " v- ' . ' V ' ........ . .-v 1 r * Y**** * s r-,1 *4'*f ; a .M' fr q And he gives you agin Figure 8, to show/, whiah' Is a - t* \ . ' V ,' ,- *- v; - ' 'V- V , rJ \ ' , ... :r,'\ "' \ ,J an enlargement of those two peaks,' isn't itj vsir? li"? on y , 1. r 3 'V . P a g e -1 5 . r. . - .V - - '' ^ A. , V . v-\; v' "/ i' \ v ' M ' .T i .<*- ' 4 A - Y e s . r I guess. i t 1a a pictured X hve;never. sQeit.a S 5 / 1 *.t * t- ,, i , ' rf ' 4 ^ ft 7 t I' gas chromatograph, but I guess this is'a picture of it. y.7 < 6 'v'' ' a .* r,;: ' 1` 1 ^ . r ^ \ r ' .. - Q Then.he go.es on in the next paragraph to tell you,. -' . , ' ' v L \. '*' 'Vi ,/( ." :rr . ' . d ;> * ;^ Vl ,, "'(. ,,'iA..C '7 at that .point vin, time ,tho1v- "s-tvo. ppe1d th`j,e*. a '/ n ' a*l y se. s - A` . L- * ^ r V 1'; t . a. -nd1 t-hYe,-. ;V worklu-pv * . ^, ' 8 of tlie sample ail over again, using D r M i e u r e Ss method,'using ' - 9 ' neutral' workup procedures this time,^as described being: doner'.'.' VV1* '..j ' io, ; j back.in; 197:7 by Dr. Mieure, doesn't he, sir? ' 4 |]' l . '^r'^Yas ., 1 H t \?\[t , * '* * V ' . " ' " * r'^y v. f - -j* _ \ . I. ' mh ' * Z 12'-'! r "7 v , * \ * ,.v*. ,,. \ fu lVs* * r*. 13 NGADC..O BAYONN.E' .NJ. OTOOZ FORMIL 14B - ,14 .. : is - 16 1,1^7* [ 18 19 N .20 21 ' 22' ; 23 24 ' C)^`S'those. * ' } ? v h i* analyses are, shown in Figur 9 in which the analyss from both 1 1 - . ' . . j l - / ' ' ; - * *"'Z 1 't ' *T ' - ' ' ' ' * * 1. *"_> . 1"" the bas workup and the neutral workup show comparable results thus indiCatihg no artifact formation, doesn't he say that, aii(, in that paragraph that .starts on Page 10 and ends on Page 16? >-V' ' ' A That's the sentence \SV' 1'v` Q iSp h e 's telling you again that it's. sure n o t a n :' l - ' y.' 'J' ^ " ' . ,:.1V A ' artifact, isn't he, sir?' That what's there is there iit:,the sample jand not made up by accidont. ' v '^ . `i j s, .' ' ~ V; ' -Ii' t. v '' t* , 4 1 A ' I d o n 't think he's-that`p o s i t i v e * ' He says thus V ,, ,, rr * t m* * , ^ 1i (., 1 4 >% ' , T\ '3 ', - V , ; . ' j i;1' . *' . ` 'v ; o </ l, indicating hp^artifact 'formation.r V' '-'-'-1/1*f*>f 5 i - ' ** / k i> - r..H-YNi'. > - ,C'.^- * * . ,*i,**1. ',*+**7 > vi -.V'* . . i 1, * ^V* r^ I r 1* J *. ^ ' - , , , ' i 'f , . ; - : J * '4 `. : ;. ^ i' -;, rr/. > 'V; .,' ,, , Y . .,l. 1 , F' , O S ,.;` j_* ' ,' * -*'**rr/ \ 1,'|fr' *'> / <* ** Q .'v.- Well / youare- right , tha(t 's/ not, a -positive, statement ". \ :>i <, - . \ - ' V ? r , ; : V.; a *. - 3 / -,r* " - , m y r * * ! ' '. ' ;< '> ' X /*v < , r r Jr , ' 1^ . ,. r *` 1 " ^ . * ' u .,, -So you c a n 11 be absolutely sure, correct#rsir ? : ;: *>/, ; r ''Xc+t .' 4 '*.a '1`-b ,f\: 4 / * ' v> * * tf . i. - S- - V '-V - - - , #Lj- Lf ' ' , A' I 'i v r, *m a *. ' * .-1 ' 'i ' , * ' A V * ' Vm.t * ft'a'lp. T ,, * . , ( *; V 5 , i V A '' : That's 1the way JI'would read'it- F H4 ^ ""' - * W ^ 1, , r ' j ' r` ' r I " r\ ' iO iVV5 -l: -h fw ^ i * BAYOfiNEi 'N.J. "0700Z , FORM IL Z4_B, \ ` Q: l: Well, that Js the ;way I would r e a d .the w o r d ,indicatlm t -I 1 ` :L" V' . r-- X A' ri"' ~-r; : ^ y'* - 6 ;/ , as well; .Pointing that\way but not being sure,- correct? -I 7 , j \^ . .\K ! " A ' That v?qu!d be my ^interpretation. /-:v . -/ \ .;V-'iv$ "'*vC ':p_ .*f: i y .1 . * -r t;*<! t- , , t ^ ` '''/ -"'X . "^ : :V - V . ' . ' V "-'r;CJlr ` i-.t ''V' '.; ' \r ;Q , .Well now, remember^ that because, I am going to Call \ si 9: I1 r * 10 , ill. /'i - -t : - ^ , i. ^ v ' v v : '. '< ; C*' 1 - -.. V' M'' that interpretation to mind in a few,inoment3, ,Mr, park;^ v `'f '1 j*-. ^ j *> ^ iP '^ ^ J '^`4` ^ - / t . s />.*4 'J ^h 1^y4'yj".^'.h '^*'$^W`7?^"'CX Vrjv/-'V/V,-; Indicating .means youcani.t.be sure. 'Points thatway; but.you'VI : (rv>'-"v>- 'a " y v f^5 iX W $ -iyj,1i J- 1 ' ' '-`W '/ , .-'i'*,' 't/j.,. , can rt4,1`/b0*e: Gure,:ig`ot thaI't"/ i'nVm'irid^ ~,Mr // P/a./r.kJ? -'v :-;;V. 7 ^ '^A.j/:t ' 12 * "'`"v/ '.Aov;v;in this context;4- AjT/A ' '/ j-. ,`i,. 13 1 4 t ' 15 * % 1^ 16./, y ' ' :.'1-A0VA:',.Vr ,i'i.,--J;>-,v-. r / - A '..^." >:./ ` ' . -`* /- r jr ` .- 0Q ,> /1,0"Mtr/.0* Park, do you V `l-i f -ifVi fi .0-"O/.C' I 0h-CasvV^e' 'LV',?Y,T tha't t,-f in - what yrou 'said?1 ,, ^ -V, ` " i- mind , th,aIrt.0th>*at is-j^us/t,* Ji-'ki'" S' *>-' - ' / / v.t; S" ,> i1f'.;>*/ ** ; * , ,, 0 'S'^* " * I *'*; * '> , *' J ' r41 / J '. i 'r . ' i J c . -^ l<1 1 1 > `f . J7' J ' .,< v fj r, ` '"V -* 5 ;* 1. . J l ^ **, i5t-' -V* ,v. 'i , f *1 - - -r * --- . 1 . i Ji A ;: . \ *> r I think the conte^t could indicate a different,/ ;/' 1 . r/r A|iCl 1*meaning ? ; ' ' v ' - A - r V or >, > r v v / `^ r , : 'vA:-'. 'M '-v * v -/ ^ r ,- * - *'r ' " c 'v / i r y ... : 17 , If,:' - *- 0 . , ;L Co S` n 1 tex -'f t c " ou ,,.*' l f d indicate; /...!" I' >*'- v *j`. ' - r ^>s a diff "' ^.*ti'-,"''. r . eV^jr.ne~ n ' t > .m e a , *> . ni , ng, ,' *ik sure-lto , > ,' - 4 'i A1 8 ' " ^ *^ can,'but then you cQn,t be sure', i t j u s t i n d i c a t e s ,Adoesn't^ r, > -'-V, ,'i t ] 00 ^ ` : /"/ , *r v /. *4'-/ ' ^ /' ' . . .a a , - , 1 9 ; V sit,> sir* vindicates is^not. a. positive word. . ^ r ' or p - ,' - 0 jrI " i- c , 7 ,` s `r *1, -^'`v"^V*>*rj/*;; 20 - ^ 1A . v.It could be stronger of- weaker, -depending on the >Way .-LV- - 21 " o ;'-` 5-j ';'-> V o * 'i-. . xit was used, v; r r.j iJV ;>; " v 'o .'v r . i , , .. * - ' " C ; 'A, *'lV /' V ' V f .i .. i*iv; / v * ' o . ^ r '- -a::,v VA,. -.22 .' ' ` - . A ' ,^ 21 - <: ... Q '' * - All-.right;. r 'Wow,, the ' l' ; v < -- next -- - v ; paragraph *.,v. j , he tells 'you *, ** ' . r ^^ how' ; ? i1/}Vs%.r1.v, r ;: .. .- 9' ' M -24 ' -V .. f . CO'.* V, J6 -(. A y . \t j. X.*"10 r * . " kV 1^' * %./"*V*'1 was there//doesn't he, sir?.. , 'V>. -i* . i+ i* / }v.*J*/ i ** V -r- '**tJ. r >U --'A-. , 1/ r*- * . f. , 1 vr, ; r,, 7'.*.; ^ r' >t`r'" - \2' '1 4\ t> *5 \ 'A- Yes3, he :sayi3 devising an HPLC analysis / p r o c e d u r e V .., i* k*/.` 4 ^ *' 1 M " ,,"' ' '\ - f i -V -r * i< 1 / "" 4,1^ '? . *1, *I-/^ - <i*p Q -And he pursued the idea of trying'to define."whether-. Cr~<;:-7j--i? V /V ri> '.MV it ws presht by devisihg an HPLC anaiysis procdure y ' "NoW/. /- ,r`.' \ - J` ^ r ' C . r. h e h a d n idea o w h a t l s e t o \ do, d i d n 1t , , * . h e,s ir, ; want e d V>vV v; .ttfXiV i t ; / 6 , go fartherr;"."from t"he--;othye.r ^1s,t,and.ar'd method\s and h(e tihought ^o-f ,<' 7 y something 'n/e-Vw-:'rtto/1'-do? `r-';*/'^ '' ` , >--*_ v- "-h-Pl' 4 .8 .- r ;A ;ir-Apparently ._so,,/ ,_//' ,-, ; /'f . . ',, , 1 `'rv-- ''il- / }CV. .9'- - ' ^ a-5 ,'-'1 ; .*I" ; / $ '.Q1'^.lAnd' he . , X. i. X ' -J. J S.` went^on then ' , . , . f . - . i -- *, - .v /< y- J' v` `and described ^something' tJiat/ ,- PT * vV *t ` "711 ~N- , / .,''-*V* iA J71'1' ' J. f' ' .L' .. T '-J .. -, , .*''.. , tuliV{-" *. r` ', . - 1 0 we have" not' seen.;before rin a n y 'of these documentsv/he used a '' if / vrv..vr ,, `_ *"* ` . , ` riv twenty-five'centimGter roverse.phase Zorbax ODS column with;v` ` > - . .i i f vJN i'i , */ / -*t }' 13 !' K J .r- ' . 5 . J 16 seventy percent acetonitrile; thirty .percent water as eluant/ 1`/'-1t,-'' is that correct/ sir? ' ` ` ; . / A. '. J- _ ;> A ? >, i , 1 v < ." A 'k/ 'T h a t 1`s -what I read1t'he.sentence the same way-i.1/^. - r. / " ' * -:// \ r ' ' '/ v . . d. * fAnd he goes on to say -with that method the/ 2 ,3 f7/8 / 1 ' ' , ' , , 'f / , t (L r - - 1- J ' ,,` f ^ .* ',i J 1 . , V ** 't ` ' . -.i r. . * . , . - -J , r- TCDF elutes shortly after, the peak ,present in the sample, ,/ *A *' [tr ^ . / .-v'f.*1^.\117i- * 17 /\ 7 t r :17 4* ; doesn't he# sir? + i*1`h ' , y 5s,' ,'**'/? is B A YO N N E, N .J.' 0 7001,- FORM IL 24 D :` r 1 8 -, . A.; ; L e t 's see. .There's another sentence between;there.v `\ :- *t. ;^19 1Y * e ` r- /,. / k`'! rr^'-." s ...; 1. j /1 1 . . r ':. s: ^ ' ;'.jVi ,i`' - ; *' i1.j * -1 V ' p* ^ -, 2 0 - ; ' r * i Q .And he .then goes on to .say the results of these'.:/;V'^ ' , ' - /\ .1 ` / r* ^_v,. 1, 'f ' s', * . *af~-r 2 1 analyses -- well j he did another run, ,-he spiked' it-with twC;^" - ' ,/ *-t -i'./Pl / > rx t ,n - ' . . i-'vt . // : V * . , - , ` ' " ' y f i * .\ , * i ' , v - ` j , >, t ' - \ ./ 22 : hundred.parts per 'billion,, and discusses that in Figure ll/' ^ i v** //*,,% 23^ \ ^\ : shows the:analysis on Figure 11,^doesn't 'he, sir? . , - ^ ii . -4 t ] >. ( // ' 24 A ' * Yes. / p 'r Ah 'i?- /*TK -. ` -i .r"-FL - 33 - > Vi. !^ I - -, ** `1 v ,T , K , *'V'-"1'> - ' \.i 1'* - A \ r t. " S/;*Y\*` .V.- A x -: 1 V1 '` S '2 : 3 ^' i fcL 4 1c Q And ,then he says :the unspiked sample, shows $ A; K~ - J 1 . .V * v - : \ v - V-' ^ '-* \'d` <'V V>' ,:?f .f'*V symmetrical peak while ,the spikedVsample showsVa peak twith ;>a: j'>'-9.-.>.; 'I . , , ,* v . ;V v ,* . -,L . ^ .* , ; , ( A - ';... ` * ' '. ' . ` , ' ^ \ J T' .. , ,^ *r ** r * '> *. ' s ' . ri' ' * % , def i n i,-ttjie.,thu mp \f on 'J' the b.ack side'. .7'This,-w'oul'd' i-n-dyica-te*\t...ha.t!t;hf*e/?/ J t l . , -, .T C D F .in'question was not .2,3,7,8 TCDF, but some, cither1'isomer*-;;. s: 6' j . 7 '1 doesn't h e fv.sir? * v;.v-jsKV--N- rj ^J<*t'-+L l ;' *f*ri.-1 S ' J * sv1--,*v;'# *V**;v' , - :>' 'L .^ ,,V .%v J;:1 Q . But:'then he says> this leads,;to a very significant rv* /i* P' ^ Vv- VV .-0- 8. X' ?` fp /10 ,t1u1-Jr 12 , J 1i 13 ' - . 1 '. : - ,`. , * - v t., ^ -1 i j1''y-*;.*'.- he c a n 't really .teliVanything;more because.there./is nothing ' 7V*vv: , " , v * ,* *, mi t s " J ,r - * * , 4i **r ' a ^ r (* 'U ' t' 1' k*" h , p-'- ar,f ' but the ,2> 1,7.,8 ;TCDF isomers: available, correct, / ' "A, 1 ' ' 'A'-J :'.^es, 'r.` - k J-.' ;" vVl ' ' x sir?; ; tr " " -1*'' f V v V \v > , .? V '/ f-\- t ; : 7 * 1* . *` _ *r .f ^a j \ vt ' ^- r ' ` **7 *;2L< Q :N o w ,.'he *goes on down to rfurther discuss what' h e ., " `x*<, i!* K -14 ,> ' 1 15- * - -1, , ^ `; ' ^ , *: ,' `' j, ? ' \ ty'- has been -doing and hov; he identifies a particular isome^-as'-v, : 27,. 3^, 4 ,.`8Q/nT'r,npTF7'.. `, A'nnpl .- rctannnot t i j, - t nmiankVea c`h. l, ior/i*.nmj ei1.-s1.dist*-ri,bfT-mu*<tT4sii4ofanm,,,, > `^. S. ' : * nonn thV*- . V- r ^ n v * - . *- :. : - *-r, - 1 'L: `r',r :1 - .r r 1 ;v , j -,16.;t -'IT vJ*~f 18 other TCDF vi does he not,1 sir? 'y < V y A / Lett's see, , Are you in that next-to-the-last ^ [ \ *9 . t1'i* ` ,'J V / / paragraph,\ Mr- Carr?1, - :vr ,,, . / - V 'a -. v V v- PE NG AD CO..., BA.YO'n NE, N.J. 07001 . FO RM -IL 14 B 19 ' .r 21 ' 22 Q 1 Yes, where .he's doing some other, things with PCB - ' -i lJV' * - ' _ A ; . 1 ' / \ isomers,.^Ee, is^ talking,.about other PCB isomers, that he, is V s , > - i V/.i, - < * , i '' ,> *- ,, 'r . `' ^ "1 . ' ^ k working.up'and going on'to explain other things that h e 's V*'V i ^ V**Ai - ' , * . doing about confirming 2,3,4,8 being present in samples?s v' 23 A x I do see-references to 2,3,4,8. ,ij . " L; /V-:. v : . A ; r; ; " " v V ;^ ; V _ ' A , 24 Q -And he talks about Professor Rappes * laboratory \and' i;-:<V ^ \ - I 1,,.' L.1''1- -, r. !; L-` . L ' , (; "'r <\ > . . ^' ;'- - . ; 34 ' 1 . i;1;* 4 1 2. rt 3 '4 V ,1 \ 5, .-Xr, *.. & ' 7 `.J',,( ;**> .1j. identifying.work that they d i d 1:and what he is `using/there *.77.',77, :V^ . v -7 * 7*. And what 1it:b'o*ils down to is h e. '1s.,r1gvo,tt*'/'a.b.o-ut:'.f*'ive test,s 'a,*n d/t*',' 7/ *l(: -s.' '* / * .; ` J ' \ , - v 't--. \ ' -i * 1 i- * j ff .4j!*i.*"-*i'.*1 1 Wy . *jr i ,* 6 that TCDFs. , ; ; 7 -7 - 7 .t..y ^ A ^ :t isomer,/ doesn't LhO/; sir? ;";,7*7 7 / V. /. . 'v r " * * <'J , r *. ` ' t ' ` " k '* H '* ' `*S I* . *- , i . W ty ,, o j r* T \ . -, .8 . MR.- MU GRAVE: JObjec t , Your/ Honor That m a totally ,x 11*,' , f ,'V }, '' ~,... '"'-v * 1 rx..'.-' '* l'i , ..' > *.< kU* >' `'"'l y mischaracterization .of ,f' ^ : ^ ` -r the t` document,, :I t 1s -] ' / v , \ ^'7 '' .r counsel *,s > v *; V , f - 7; fi *..'*i-{>t-,,~<1 i, 10. testimony,' i t rs 'improper and it's attempting to mislead 7 11 , ' the jury../ It's not'what toe document says a t all and. Mr-7, 7-7 12 'Carr'knows that. ' 7 ; ^ ,1 3 1 THE COURT: .Overruled. Vr : - ,r *' ... ! ",1 ', * .1- ; ~\k .-<'V V.f K^-c * \v 'vV * . 14 A 1 I t 's .not indicated that it:-.s a new analytical*.1' .: Ar-. : : ^ . . ''^. r. . 1t ' ; .1 t ^ v* i : ,` * ` *^ - * '? ,,- 15 .process :irwould read this, that he has tried one or...two and ; .A 16 17 / 'j * 11 ' , i -", . /*, !f` .V' J\ -'t.' - `. the results are confusing* so now he tries r- * r f '7 ^ v t' / \ '[, r; '' - 1 `.'"7'%:'.* this one and the ,7 7 * .r * 7v-ji 7 '*'"-+tya+****- results are more-clear.. And it appears that it is not the7 : / 18' ' 2,3,7,B TCDF, but some'other isomer'. : . 7'-- 1f,j*1"1,- a*. 7 7 -7 ;" '.7''* 1 9 Q 'Well, he's talking about'the isomef 2 f3,4f8 TCDF*in -v v ^ .7 20 Sample KM06-7025, isn rt he, sir?; That *s toe sample. that he fa -!7 . r 21 7 . ' ' L r 7> '' : `. v ' ][ 'r ' s'!*"' ",.: '-77^/7 worked up, i s n 11 i t ; sir, that h e 1s analyzed `for 2,3 4 /8|.TCDF? t*. 22 > 23 ** 7 / ;L" ` ' r 7 -"77-* r/ . 77 'v : - / f . 7 ' 7; .LDoes he indicate'he worked 7up any 'other, samples that; v;ay7' ^ .... _\ t' * F ' v v, .- 7 7 . '* * * -\ < r , - A *H e 's'analyzing /for ^2>3,7,8v . - /. . v ; r** * >: .. .* .. i: A: , 2 4 r Q/' ;X n that sample KM0.6-7025? . '^ !. # 'V /' 35 -7' ,7 , . \i: \ ,i * 1V ^7: ' ''(V 1 lv- 2 ; , J1 t\ < A --A . I b e lie v e -so v - . -/A t 'V t '*/ * r * ^ ,'r1 ^ y$ t/;,.,/ ' \ Q . . , A n d - h e j t l s ' a b t - a l l ' o f ;t h a t V " "* w?. 7' V `y_ *'"; i ; i \ * " . : ;; ,,V in it ia l,, su b seq u en t ^ v*'"- ; f i -;| < -v ^ V. . ; 4 !V 5. 'F ' -6 A I 'm s o r r y ,, w h e r e a r e y o u the 2*,3"i,A4',8o*?>ff . ' '' ' '- ! . J r e a d in g `. r -- .'o h , d o w n b e lo w ''/ . . a,'-:-.-..y` . K \, < - " 1' `' 8 * 9/ lb q V.':';yes';- ''' s ,.' J - >"/ : ; . . J( A HR, MUSGRAVE: v Where are you seeing the KMO6-7025, . V A . y y ! - ' ' : ,, A y " , \ - ; .` V * ';.;' y M r . \ C a V r ? ` 'A;^ j;''''^ *> V: _ V v / v a A-A-V. . , - . MR. CARR;' Page 22 when he'sdiscussing the > ,i. * ., > "r. '- \ f t` z ^ / - \ 2,3,4,8 TCDP " -'V ' isomer .that he's ! found ' and also on ^-T Page /10; '!;^ 12 ' ' when nhe talks about that he took the, bottom of'Page^lO#if ; 13 ' 14' . ` 15 \ f, 16 17 >. .18 19 ' 20 21 22 ,2 3 * . .24 v/hen h e .talks about sample KM06-7025 DCP. sample-. 'i.'-.;;,' - `> `r ; - -tv ! . . - >tV" *,rii . * " <,, (V- ' ''J . ' ;I4R. MUSGRAVE: But that talks about the neutral i,> 'Sr. V *workup. That doesn't'refer, to, this continued/work.. ,^ tJf . X . ''V '-` ^ . - V '. / .^ , > ',//MR; rCARRs- Indeed'it 'does';*,' r,r:: f J; {. ' ` ^ /' 7%'.' `V>v >i . J / \ ? r : ^ ; ^ Q '.(MR/CARR) Well', >iook b n Page ,22,! if ybu wili;S,and. ' r'*.1 /- . *. . r lf. -aJ % " ,l/ there w o n ' ^ b'e^any question about it. , - /- i \ A. . "i 1 1 "J I 1 J* . L'' f' k. P J V ^.. r- * ~ ^ '** S . r .I 'i ( 'f,, 1 ,^ , * ? * -, ; . - ` V ' ' -A Y e s . . *" 1 " ' T t ^'<' " Jr`-. . ' ^ ,, r- * . ', ' . A-, *'\\*S "*Sf , Q '.' 'H e ;is talking: about KM06-7Q25, isn'.t he,, sir? -i e , , ... *, A ' *` . ` ^ , t -V s f . ' f^ ' . '* ' ' t,7' ^, ' / V ,Si , A . - ' ' *VV i*I_hS.i''c- kh'- paragra,p.Lh,^____________ - ______ ` Mr. 'Car1r? 1 ^' *1' ; * i 1 * !rvft ^ C f/` L'r }';& < Q r ;The.,second paragraph,LPage 22, middlb of .,thaLtfV> ; / y J J Vr*JV/'r '' `'* , VJ'.Jr'fr ' ". L` '' ,`''J ." C- ' y ~d/'/t C-`'Jiy-/ 11 y. v parag raph toward the'bottom part of ;it. . . . .Yes, I do see ,the reference to `KM06-7025 / '/'. ^ fIf'.C.;r,^:* --i: * }- z i , . P E N G A D 'C O .,~ B A rO N *N E . N . J . 0 7 0 0 2 - ,r o R M If . 2.4 B 4. S*-*?:4*-'-. ii ' .,*'iV : j 4fi - 1 ' ,''/V ' *,' -f"frV.*'*-*^ -* .. ^ , JV j j \ K\ IA v/ * V " 5 - " ,``1 ' A . L ''r' h \ -. ` V; 2 "3 `4 J p -5 ,f :*'/pile/also>saya ;in- thatrsaraa 'paragraph, .it -shbuld' *be v .v "**'-'i*./'K>`fvf/jt1"V ^i"'*.l-/V1^d l^",i' *\ ^,- - '. ;'' . 11 i -'' 'Ai/ ,/''V'V.V>"- noted 'that. the .TCDFs were cohsiderablyiov/er in the' Dew.'2>4 !, '* t * DCP as * .compared.toV n '* ' * *r \ ;S \ c ourT >ij *:. 'i ` V - sam>p. l* es4,doe* sn4 '1 t it, - sir?' ~ v.v k1> J / -* .* v..i- j- V v'V ' 1 j/- *'tiI-'see tha'tr'.sent1e'n1c-e.'.; "' . F?-,i(' f, t*j12 Q.V `>Xt also says A -hov/ever, the same isomers-present in>: ; *.J - 1 ' .-V'U'" " 6 the l|M*'ons*a^n'tlo.,DCf>Ps 1w]eri e**a'lso pj'r'e**s",ent (.ljn':tlIi'e<(t DJow^ DCP ^`' f^/^lv t"k. '"V'.rsj--t.-c " ' - *' P.- 'A V e s V . - _ ... A-" 's/ 8-; : \ 9"- 10 IV , -'- ' ' - " ' ,',' - * " r' . ' -A \ j ,J r , V . Q % 'Now, as a result ,of this, he prepared the table i r and j 'v'- .n-"- 1 v1'-j,J* v '.rV. ,;<*.'* 1,-' *' V - . r,.j;-;`? s this ,table is in there 'prspared, and 'when she labeled/all ' \ . I'-1 the s e ,samples oh Table 3 as .being those TCDFs that have y - ; .//' ; , j j ; A';;w analytical . characteris ticscomparable ^to 12,3, 7,8 , V' -v * ^* r ,) j ` * i*' *' . `T ' C D F , ^^doe,sh*1,t'. ' `. ^ {' ;.-V 12''A h, sir? t,,. * BAYO N N E. N .J. 07002 ' FORM l l 24 B 13 * A , V7ell,. we are back 'to 'the footnote on i . lrJ : . 4V- . iii f 1 ",`' ; l ' 1 '. ` - 1 yt-,IIJ'`^ *^' ' rj, 1 . .-1'-r-:r >>, '.^,|V."#"*'y . Y c 'S*'*'' 14 Q1.- ' *Yes, 1-r'r f`-- back to ,1 the footnote , '- .*'' i" ' on Page 5, Table ' ' . ^`*" *. ** 3 . : /;i \-A ** j *1-* :2,;.^':i 15 , -` ,MR.MUSGRAVE: O b j e c t / t h a t 's a mischaracterization. } r 1 J ' ' J \ /v-i:1 'Vi ,-r - .^v', V 4\ , 16 1 17 of'what.:it says, rIt says packed column/: Mr! Carr,' '/ i ' ^ *^ < L, 1 * ' < j 1 1 * . MR." CARR: `That's all . right-with f me',- , I 'X i ,accept ' *,w itV - - -: `ii>.'V i r >' J" 1-8-V 19 , 20 ' .'"J Your Honor.. ' ; ' /*. / '/ ^,-v 'L ' ' ' '; " *V - / F .> V :-I ?*:,> f-ov'*'*iAt'; ^ THE COURT; Overruled. . ' , ,' , L . ; " ---J J F^' ^ 1 - y - '- rl Q / ,(MR.- CARR) -vit says'-;packed GCA column comparable t r f;.; 2; the 2/3,^,8;TCDF^ .,r A\V . ' ' ; '... /--"A 22, *"V- `` ' ` ` "J,` ` *` : '*,%F^* -V ` /, ^; . - MR; `MUSGRVE:. And .then i't xefers, Your' Hohor', and r 2 3 Mr. Carr, see. thedisetteslo of' these results for further 2 4 results'using capillary columns iV'1,/ * .*.-' '|""H ' ; v ; . ;* - 37 *- , ' ` ..I * -U 1 '2 ' V'j 1 -y- !i.*"'{ " V,i`-t,-'' ' V ' ty^ W-y:* .7 1 -j**;;->,i'vX-u'*^Vi*5!v' r,yy'; - v. y . -\,'1- tyS-^>. Xi. - ' 1; y'\X;.-VJrhv'). '>1X & J ./ X x X V '' v. ,J ,,v*KJ> l V~U J.' yfXV' k 7;5 ' MRR..C'A,CRARRR:: "' And.\we--hbave \ ' '' seen the f^urth-eIr.edaiiv-s'c-russi.on//yV, * . ' >H4' .- - ` 4ht, / > J t 1 * * 1"M (' ^ FI 41 ' he has told :us quite in ; 1\ kr:3*7r V-i > r ,/-'5 ' : he did-j.'tp*;l`c'io"n-.<f;i.rm that ;;;m r V m u SGRAVE :/1"object ,that,*s .total :-- barr/vis^a lie. -L<7> ,-y X ' X V /// J *' J i k..'_yy.1i *<.*i that'# .Mr*.,y / $y . ;;y:\',v ' v***'-1 * rTv "- X '-: 7. / ; V He Vc o T: "Overruled, J * i - *f 1 + t- , r/ ( MR :- MUSGRAVE: V I t 1s a mischracteriztion of the .y ,iu ; -`' *=,.` i/'- ' ^ ' y* *..*.'.i-.*, ',j Io, 'h ,,v- , ` Vr _ < ` t * J \ f J'; i/ 'evidence/Your,honor.t'S / 'C* > J ' 1 . r/' ` \ -r t ^ > -> * i rV 1 '- L ,^ *9;',1* *- "lO ' ' '' ' -/ 'v..c'T H E ,:.C,vO,UR--T,: ..O.ver,r_uled, ' -*.\ . 1 ,r r .. \ < t ,. 1 j i JH . '- r . i ' 1V ' lit, , 4- L !^ ` i *, V / r -*i" r I. V y/ V'...>yv * -?'sa y y : y ir V ' T , *,- , BAYONN.E. .NJ 0700 "foR jMIL 24B > ii ; 1** 7-- < , V,-1^ r ". , ' - rT- 3'-js'".1"y 'p - ,-f*'-T,.* t* _?j ^, .V.*-Vr 4,-. < ',-;jr-rlwryy r.. y 'V x 1 ` -(j1 y.i'( .^* *-...' 11a 5* ,> -y : v 1 ^.f - < -,x.;- 12 s .reading this -Table 3, correctly fi there- appear to be two colunuisv i/ 'i ?, ''- :;:*;; l',k \ ^ under: the Tetr'heading:;and he ^,:'r' is saying :\ \ \ that ' -T-.; >y\ >H' < \one of these" .r `h :y*y, %' ; :?' <V , . . :y y ' .X -: >* - ',:J>; .yy v riv'\ 'v L1~ * ;X 4 .. has analytical characteristi c s ,on .a .packed .GC. column ,*comparable " "`-,J r'<7" v" y .v.,/;' y /." ' ,j / , ' { - ''/ - ; "- y,-" '-`V-y y . y y - - 15,'/- - t o t h e 'i^a^^a^cbf:'. \ ./ (. ; y, ^ y,' -y.y"> '` - V/* yj>yy > ^ ^ v'^;/;^ ! > 'J-> .*.y .: 16k -',.'.,' ''JJ,Q '/`'/..''`.`VN's.At'o''-w /--'Mr/; .P>ta?r'k;"Jy^.id.i-r'ec't--in\g 'y,our a'Vtternti---oJnIti.t-o vtJ'h,; ..;'fV i/`l'`is/'. P..;:,V 1.7 ` 1?'/ L Decem t,hyavty b erIr' 1S4a,V,",,-/'"1S'9 81. w.e- Xh;av:e .rdrius-cu m s emo ^Monsan seEd--r^e.ayryly,iefr t ; o q Exhibit/.882, uote, also i :v;/-1 y, t the'statement'.:^ vwyas*`no-ty.e:d.x t h a t . x . '>*rt.'1\. " .-1 Tv>jr`iv***V**iy'*,**1 ; .19 / no 2,3,7>8 ;dibenzofurans were foundvin the 2,4-dichlorOphenol,... J f, v' */ i; X X f;!y , X y 'y`r-- " X Z -- i-'"/ './ X r;v 7 20 hi ; -e"n-da-o->ff/quote . -Now, you put that statement in ;there, didst1t y y v',- r.i -1i.1` >-^.% .- r', -- ,4it . -- r *>..-f-.yy....,'^, ,, ,i, ... -/Vvi'-*V'1* - . you, s i r ? X X y rr#V 7^.y-/\s # \ . 2H - :' ,A : ,.That,-came f r o m .a chemist who was prsent a t1 'they*.P fc -V1 * Ff* s t ; ; %' s . i 23"j*.*, 24 t ' '* *ft f. - > " **--L; -- , * -meetingL/...*->j'j .*\ y *.-'- , t . : - y 1*'. ' - 'Vl J'- ' _ -J{,' - - y - 1.' ' - - r, - ` 3 v L ' . ' r , V; Q / My question/is"you put that-statement ' .- + `'- Lrv- -v V /;.',. - tr V3'VY* * y`';.*4'J,*iw'---St>.'X?` x " ' -yi in there?. s` `"y --v;r,-/y- . r ' ,' :>i ' X > -s f T >**-'X ., '```ii'>y J 3s , V,J /V ri* 1 didn't you, sir? 2 A It's in the minutes. 3 U And you, by putting that statement in there, meant 4 to convey that your tests revealed no 2,3,7,8 dibenzofurans, 5 didn't it, sir? 6 A X relied on a chemist who was present at the meeting 7 and who said put it in. 8 Q Mr. Park, you meant to convey the meaning that there 9 was in fact, and that you could rely on it, and if anybody eve:: 10 came along and checked and looked why you didn't report the 11 furans to the EPA as a risk, as a health risk, you could pull 12 this document out and say, well, look, there wasn't any 2,3,7,J 13 fuxan in that 2,4-dichlorophenol. You could do that. You are 14 making a record, aren't you, Mr. Park? 15 A The sentence was put in there, Mr. Carr, because 16 there were no 2,3,7,8 dibenzofurans, I assume. 17 Q There were none, sir? What does Table 3 say? Does 18 it say that there isn't any in there, sir? 19 A Mr. Carr -- 20 Q Does this document anywhere say that in Sample 7024 21 there are no 2,3,7,8 dibenzofurans? 22 A I think we've been through what the table says. 23 Q We have indeed, and does it say anywhere that there 24 is no 2,3,7,8 dibenzofurans in Sample KMO5-7024? y 39 1 A It doesn't say that. 2 Q But, Mr. Park, what you say in this memo is that 3 there wasn't any, don't you, sir? 4 A Yes. 5 Q But the document doesn't say that there is not any, 6 does it, sir? 7 A Not this document by itself. 8 Q Is there another document somewhere that says, that 9 you went back and rechecked Sample 7024 and you discovered 10 that the SGc>teraber, 1981 table was wrong? That in fact there 11 was no 2,3,7,87 Have you got another file that I haven't 12 seen, Mr, Park? 13 A There's another document in this file, Mr. Carr, 14 that indicates there was none. 15 Q Please find that document if you would, sir. 16 A Here it is, Mr. Carr. This is a memorandum to me 17 from -- 18 Q May I see it, please? 19 A Yes. This is where it came from right here. 20 Q Mr. Park, this is attached to Plaintiff Exhibit -- 21 I don't know the number offhand, but this is Clayton Callis' 22 comment, isn't it, sir? 23 A That's correct. 24 Q And he's using your language, he hasn't changed your 40 1 language, he's suggesting that the third paragraph that you 2 have should read as he puts it. He doesn't change anything* 3 He doesn't tell you anything new, does he, sir? 4 A Yes, he does, Mr* Carr* If you read it* 5 Q What does he tell you new, sir? 6 A He added that sentence that you just referred to and 7 read to the Court a moment ago* 8 Q And it's not in your report of December 14? 9 A It went from here into the final. I don't believe 10 it was in my -- 11 Q We are talking about your final report, sir* 12 A Which was based upon what he said, Mr. Carr. See, 13 it included his comments to go in the final. 14 Q And where is there documentation, where is there 15 some evidence that it was not in there? 16 A Well, it's not in the first draft that I circulated, 17 I don't believe. No* 18 Q You added that because he -- 19 A At his request* 20 Q All right* And now where did he get the information 21 then that there was no 2,3,7,8 in this material tested, sir? 22 A I don't know* He's a very capable chemist. H e 's a 23 former president of the American Chemical Society. 24 Q And did he dream it up out of the sky? - 41 1 A I doubt that. 2 Q Is there a document in there other than his state 3 ment, sir? 4 A I don't know. I assume he would have obtained the 5 information 6 Q And it should be in your file if you got it somewhi 7 shouldn't it, sir? 8 A Not necessarily. 9 Q Well, where is it, sir? I have asked for all this 10 information 11 A I don't know. 12 Q You have never seen it? Did you consider that 13 evidence that he had at this meeting, sir? 14 A I give great weight to someone with his qualifi 15 cations says. 16 Q Did you consider thatevidence that he hadat this 17 meeting, sir, the TSCA 8(e) meeting, did youconsider this 18 evidence that he said supports the conclusions that there is 19 no 2,3,7,8 in the samples? 20 A We consider all evidence. 21 Q And what evidence is it that you considered then, 22 that would indicate there is no 2,3,7,8 in the samples? 23 A Dr. Callis, I assume, had other information 24 available to him that's not in the file. 42 rk *,-j _ -*c;; fJ r,- - li 'i * r . */ i r 3* 1 Q And my J*Y question is where , *-!1 is that other e*vidence? * 2, . A I d o n 't know, `` * *" * ' -` ,> ' A ' \'f" f^ <Pi, i ' ' >1' : */ '/-.V.,; - v'/.- " ''/yY -A; "u 3r Q Did your committee have it?.. ; v 1 v v' - y>v ' A 7 .4 a . ^ -'A:"- .-'A: - -* v1 A A YA-- 4 A l e a n 11 tell you off. the top of my head, Mr; Carry;:^ Vtf- '.! '5- ; Q That file of yours is supposed to have.a ll* t h e d a t a ' - "JAY,, . 1 \A. . ." .* - ,'' . . ; jv-y-.*1r.` `A:i-v'"t\\'\ XA' ` {.. r-.- ' 6: in it that supports the conclusions that you reach, inyyoUr ; J - 7 meetings, i s n 't it, sir? '-**-* *.**(*. '''! ; y ; ; PENGad CO.. BAYONNE, "N .J. 07002 FORM J L ,,24 B 8 9 10 11 ." ` 12y A, Mot necessarily, no* A .,; 1-- - - y. r"v*,c ` q . ; Well, is there any evidence of ^any1 sort at any time that you *. a *" r e' a w ar .V e 'o f to` s'urp-po.rt A. th A'sta*-"te/me-nt *th'at ,, ,r -A r t ^ d, 1 i 'y/o'uV -, * p ut ij }t/;4 i r' ,i , 1* * , . ^ 1 t, - , that your committee adoptedin this report, final report Of December 14, 1981? - .i ,y ^ t iJ<,4;' * j, .13 \ 14 i. ,157. . 16 1 b y som eone w it h * h e q ^ i ^ c a t i o n ^ ^ f '.i* * Dr* Calli ;i think would support that* asked . yo>u fotr evidence, sir* , 1 y / <. . jr; -t ,-y ,i"i"y.' i *" - - y A y ;Weil, iright here'* *'' yy - 1 ;. . " ^ <1 \ *j 1^ T-.wjyr-.^ y: * \ . /-v; * 17 ", : - JA 18 19 ` 20 21 ., 22, ;. 2 3 - 24' j V` * ` ''y Q. i".,a " ;He r i. didn't ^ 1 (!" -tyy-, ^V *:* V. y : r- analyse the samples, iy -i 'f't ' j,' 1'.''2;. -A.. , *- did ' ..*. h 'A fi e y 'y .'V ' .y 'v. , --- iT.^-v;-J; *' ^,, v y yn.-.-y.yv Acy ;>i don'-tvknowy ' y -yy ^ J J =--,* . I' * 'r * " ^ -* ; ;/, * _ *- ' h. a , f1 . y . - ; fi -y yy.y- 'y*: . *- Q y W e i l y :youfdo!{know/ Look at the document,nd 'see.';'y? .;>y*1 >r * 1' _"" \ 'r L ,< *-: v-. . - ^ / V '* * ik *. s , t \ who analyzed the samples Dr, - 'L v'v - . ,, (. /didn't he,.sir? " > ' k' _ * i`L^ ' Hileman *4 analyzed the ' *..\^;y`` -s ' ample -'y.\1, s ,yyr$ ;y 1 *t / J ;'yy ' 'I , Tt ` L1 ' - y <; - / .' i;t'*y' 'y* v jt\ /'X '; v, , t. T A . ^ * _ ' 'r . ? , i.. - . > V'f' *1 > 1 1 1 V' v '. . ` i - , 1 "' . i f . , - y r ' V * i , ,, . Others would be better qualified to speak ,,on:-'*this,' J- ' Y 'k ` `Y a but I would assume he would have talked to Hileman^ 'or .others/// , J .A l;.v- 1 : '<, . 'if about it and; maybe they reached* some conclusion* y5 - - ; .. . - 43 - / * I Q But not put those conclusions in writing, not have 2 data there to support your statements, sir? 3 A Huh-uh. 4 Q Is that the way you do it at Monsanto? 5 A Everything that's considered at these meetings is 6 not put down on paper. 7 Q Well, something as important as whether there is or 8 is not 2,3,7,8 dibenzofuran in your 2,4-dichlorophenol, 9 surely you would have some evidence to support that, Mr. Park, 10 some chemist somewhere would have analyzed it and said in 11 this sample 7024, why, all that tetra in there, none of that 12 is 2,3,7,8. Surely you would have some -- we've got tables 13 and tables, we've got reports and reports, where they say 14 non-detected for tetras. We see that all the time, all kinds 15 of documents, every single sample that we've got here, some 16 chemist has analyzed it. Now the analysis that we have says 17 that there is something in there that has the same analytical 18 characteristics as 2,3,7,8, isn't that right, sir? 19 MR. MUSGRAVE: Object, Your Honor. That's a 20 raicharacterization of the document with regard to a 21 packed column, but it says see discussion. 22 THE COURT t Overruled 23 A It says there appeared to be analytical 24 characteristics comparable to 2,3,7,8. - 44 - 2 ; i[- 4 5' ;'6 8` '><i , Ci *;T r / * ** memo of 'f 1 : I M l accept that / ' And - *:_* : t ,"r ' % - .. ' " 1. December 14? Ji J-- * ` ,* no. ; 'r<\* t .-V/' '- V yV\ - ;- * ' v did you say that in your/ 1.rv * L"'i '.** -* i `-r , /i *1 >, 7- Vf''JS'i . - u ; / ' j. i j t ' V* *-i '*V; '- `--- , , `-" f, r' - .* J,`, | J, r-*v v'* v : - ,. , w . 1. j ^^ L_ r * , * '` I ^ `r *J* ft * L `S'.' *7 C Q What you said was that there i s n/'t>aany* You :said\7> a f f ir m a t i v e ly an d p o s i t i v e l y f o r som ebody to . r e ly c o n t t h a t 7 '74 L` 7, ' t ' ` r'.-V.7 '7'* v ft h e r e i s n ' t a n y , an d t h a t w a s a l i e t? w a s n 't i t , . M r* P a r k ? 7 7 :/ 7 V t * ..y ^ t, , , , : .> 1 . 7* . r i" ; . - .' '7>`'4'\ ' 1:'7".-7` ` **..,,**.. *. ,, i A A b s o lu t e ly n o t* r ' ;(.w , , 'v ' Vm iiffi a ; i ,i . ' - i * V '' ,`;r V i : ^ '"V* ' r W ^-`7 1: ; 7 ;M R .: ITOSGRAYEV : O b je c t io n / Y o h i H o n o r, t h a t ' s , t o t a l l y B4V0NH E.*'N.!l, ^,07.002' _ FOB H, IL m V 9 . im p ro p e r* R e q u e st th e ju r y be in s t r u c t e d to d is re g a rd i t . 10>. . TH E COURTS . O v e r r u le d i > V. ` , * , " 7V * c . 11 / " 1 1? v _ '* ^ |^ CARR) :; Mr .'^Park/'/if it?a the truth, 'where -'is/'. ', f 'V***'**/*"{-j`'y? ^,^'7 t **v,; ,' 12 th cherast *s analsio that ^shows Sample 7024 does not hve ** */ 3-; . -.s- ti*- ''r'. x";J 'i-- , X*/i' t ' t` ; " ,rt" . ; .- i`.^- v 1 ,x . TC . ' J v . 1 4 A#;-^;Mr i/Carr i cn *ct tel 1 'you why ;another report was'. '\ 15 ,not filed; was^not prepared/ :! assume that, this was discusBed 16 verbally;and Was confirmed. ' ^ r , . ,Lv , 1 1 : V ' -, ,i: . 1 7 . v Q My question i s w h e r e i e the analysis that says,to v 18 : t : r'; .- '. ^ 7 ' :."7 * J* 1 <* `" '.i' your committee, you don't have to report becausethere isn't I'* "19 ,o': \ . 21 `22: ` -23./ -, I" t `24 - any 2 ,3,7,8 in it. I am asking you:where is that document 7 -;, and counsel,. if you have.it, I'd like to' have -it produced*.jZ/V, ... T' * 7 ' 7 '-:b 7 . j 7 -j 7 , . ^ `-7 ,.it'7-i`v ''7' A As I shoWed you, Mr . Carr, here is: the/'basis `for -`^V 'Jt1- : .77 th statement. * ,N*, ^*, Q : My question, however, that is hot an analysis;of .the samples is it, air? What this is, he's suggesting, to you how ". V --'.-- ' 4 5 - -,v - ' r \ -' - *, ' l '"-j, to w ord a p a r t ic u la r p r a g r p h , i s n ' t h e , s i x ? _ >s c 1- *- ` ' " * , ` r *` , , , l %/^ , J' -, . ^ \l 1 ,r -r )r \' > A, , ";i,Tvh ;a t ' s c o\r r erc t . " ;v ,1 .V-V' ' `,v 'V /^ , v . . , *'*-AJ'v Q L' ' , ' -He' s .-J' ", t e llin g you to *- p u t t h is paragraph in ' - - L1 * ,, p la c e 1:. * o ! f ' - "K' vt th e paragraph th a t you se n t o u t and in f a c t , ' you a d o p te d th a t >,-< r p a ra g ra p h ? ^ / '* r r, J- .. J . V'r*=V .That's correct. 7-it* , Q, / A n d this Clayton Calila is a-senior chemist?, 7 tlJ* v V' i, A " I would consider him a very highly qualified chemist 'He-1s ?'& MDr Callis , PhD>/Ir:believe . ' ''- 7 `. 3'V'-'-r / * M * ' -i\ft?*} d `f Jt J * ^ -> ' 1 'j - ' f, y , [j * J' " '] .f V ^.fr'-v * V r\. . k1 W : i s Drv;Blleinanv l ^ t he? . ; - V,;.,; ^ xyj v! :j k A ' 7m"not" 4 Pi t I1 jf "ti h>aJ 1t,t ?ai i* *n l{TlIi..1a, 'f )//j*w7 'i' "t h Dr l;k -r V*.,7*1 Hileman. f-'^. ,S ` ' 1 r^ ` ' ,, V \t*^r' T ,W i. * 'a %, it*' Q 1 Well/, let,,me/represent to you that Dr*. Hilman w a s ''',; , \t;;\ \ "w ;, . y-Wiyfj 7' , .' Tifl ** <t, 1, .. , hired because of his capabilities in analyKhg tVes productBv and that h e ris relied upon, all kinds of docimiehts come through ` i /- , .. ;v * / ' ; 1 i r . * -,rvt, V here w i t h h i s signature on it, analyzing these products, and.v i : *; -'-'v,-: y,. . v. ; ^ that he'atestifiedhere. W o u l d y o u accept, please, that he / - rL Is also, a Doctor, PhD?,. ` .L 1 * ^ ' . " ; <| ; - > rr 1 ' ` r* ' " \ i { ^ " Jr 1 L j. A , I 'll accept^ that* ** ', - : * r - " '' ' . ' "l 1 t .. ^ 1 ' \r,'f * i r' 1 V- *. J - vk 4 \ V `- , . 3J , Q m , And you have his, analysis there that tells you ".A there is Something in there comparable to 2,3,7,8 .TCDP,^you J .V *7 * r , <1 have that, d o n 't y o u f ir? ' , ^ V - J' ,,L ; ^ 'F ` ' , - i/ : > A .; Yes, I have the results.' '^ ' , / 'j r>.. -w ,< . < t. " r , . ' ^T L > * r-1 J'* " i'' ' `P` ^ 'T ', t f i A. \ Q And you haven't a single other chemist''a* analysis';;.^! of those samplesin your file, have you, sir? /' v :v ' . V:'% ` k;: o-' - 46 - a' ' " /-/> ./ ' ' /* ; , , .'i,'/h'V '| , '- ,. 'U ' ')(V^7'jvy:..7.*v.-.-";'"'.-Js r> v- V r - ' . .=V,,' 1- :--7 ' 7 / * ''--7 W/ 7^ / y .r>v^wy' y-iV * . 'v v t`.1, *:a >t!. < i 1* . V ^ , ,, .,1 / _ ' ' * ' ') ' y l . j y 7 -">Jr,^ `/' 1 A - That18 correct *: , - , ' / y / V 7 / -v > / - i ';-J / y * y j. A/'/yJ- . '/,,/ )'-*! 2' i.' ^ Q All; the evidence that you have is that there1was/. , *i' i* i 1 1- W , -= -V - , " - jv y, *- V . y v * > : ' Y <7 77 v: .3. soaothing in there that looked rlike 2/3 ;7 / 8 ian* t that7,crrect? 7- ; ,. s ", 1. ' .:* . *'L , , *' ' ` * .+ v >./ ., .. -' V \ v^ *;v ' r f * ' v ' ,4 .-' i j '- r v4 A No, I VTOUld cohcider Dr Callis1 EiemorandurQ evidence k> . - r f ^ r ;` .' t r, , 1 * j -j , - . rr `'rt.vr ;. f . l, *,, . . ** * ' r f ^ ' ;* , * t - '5/ " Q |( Xouywuid consider t h a t ^evidnce'^ ofan^ariaiysib . /' : V'VV* '. ' / 1 J;; v,\. f<\ V yi*<y- 7 ~ ;6r V it? My'question is the only evidence 'you have o f ,any ; f* y "vV-/ v. J-- .V ,..j>7 ; fV . v X Ur .T * i J t -i' f V 1 { " > " i r' - " n- - ( * v , 7 4 > im i - * . t * j * * i i H i 1 m n n ` .i & .. ( 4 (4 ,t 4 4^ j 'rf"i 4 .; > :^ ^ -v *, "-1 * r" i i'1 8' 9 ; 7 V . Q ''p h iy ^ a h a ly s is " .yo u 'h a v e is '^ th e r 'V.i" *.r? ** ^' ^ '. *.. * r tf-v\{V--'1* ^ ' '*,r'. - -> i,j '** t.V"' V '"r ti- ` ji 40 tt fiiie is a n " ' r e p o r t V " bXx ^ 1` - / V ; ' *:-V '/ v*V-** A /IIV : ' ;. V'( '` 7 , r -v '\*v h* Jv/ J . ' .J *** 1' A ' h^t -M ouia \ V^* ' j `.<J" jv ^*j appear to be V Tj v' `'.- *f' the; o n ly / , fV^: "- r^-. >; a n a ly s is r* : ^'# ' ^ 4 n :' t l i l s >V ^; 'VC~. -T-'* 7,"7' ,Vrj> Vii2 iJ V'fiiV: !- * ^ \ ( ' ^ v .', . ;<-1 ' tfS . t ' " 1 7 s * f :i3 ` % v I 'T ^ E 7c 0BSt^ M r. ,'c a r r > - is " t h is . at\gafci&d jtpiiiinntti tfooir^'a-`\-r7h.. ' 1415 > J` ' ^ -W V i->'"y IV y.-iV " . 1 * -short-break?- . > *.-; V J-' u i V -- \ * ' 7 MR. CARR: Y e a , Y o u r ., . i'O ' ''*v' .;y.vi. : V'-';1'- H onor/ ` .i . ; ^ f .--.f . ," V, V/,--Vv - 7- .V MA ' . .i.tiTT-- * '^77 '' - . < y v , f t:. -is.* . . :in7./\ ^ ^ * r * l / ^ r. _ - ,^ ij / ; r 16 ` IT :1. , * ,j_. ~ _ . _>- !, .THE COURT;: /Ladies r-a*7 V.-'i ",,, -, /' ^ , : y .;-j 1' . \ .1 ! ..-v v and g e n t l e m e n w e will tak ' - / . * , . (y ` V a'"-..'y' rV7.y;t-7l,i\".7*,7'/>/1',--%rv`>v.7.J.*-.-/r;'...-v,'. * '* ;vshort.- recess, -\-l] will',' remind you: you a r e n o t to Jdie cuss,;v:" cia - r}. 7 *,r '' ,7 / / 7 ' V " / \: .'.'J t f /.. *.7 ./';;7 \ ri .,'V'^,7 'if. ). 4. J 'this matter among yourselves; with anyone o u t s i d e - t h e / i '- Y " ' - V 19 '' 20'ri ' A' 21 r - 22 `-23 ^ lr. 24 " r'"v!--JJ>' - , s'r ".f,`'`-^ v " -^" . u'/ *'.,, v 1 *t*.. ,-Sv' about the matters, on trial. Court will be in a short: ^ 1 , iil( *Vi% recess. ,4 / r :7-;" 7'-- / ' ,*i - '->': ".`ww.- .*>JT L'*^ */ ' ,;// .(Whereupon a short recess was taken, after .which 0i T i V . /57./Ji/' . 7 :,/ -; ' . / 7 *\ ` \ ` * r S', time the proceedings were had, in open courts)" / ' * ,'-tHV* *EDS COURT 1 MrV- C a r r? .. *< * *"f 1 ' r, <1 1 , ' - 1 -.47 - tfCNGADC .p*\B*bNNEv .J, 1 Q (MR. CARR) Yes, Your Honor. Now, Mr. Park, 2 regardless of what Mr. Callis may say, one fact -- or did say, 3 one fact does stand out and that's the presence of high level 4 of two TCDFs, one of which has analytical characteristics 5 comparable to 2,3,7,8 TCDF, i s n 't that correct, sir? 6 A There were levels -- 7 Q Could you answer that question, please? 8 A No, I don't think they were high levels. 9 MR. MUSGRAVE: That's a miecharacterization of the 10 entire document. 11 THE COURTi Overruled. 12 Q Could you answer that question? 13 A I would say there were no high levels present. 14 Q Would you turn to Page 10 of Dr. Hileman's report, 15 about the eighth line of the second paragraph? Does he not 16 say -- are you there, sir? 17 A Page 10, second paragraph? 18 Q Yes, about the eighth line. 19 A Yes. 20 Q Does he not say, however, one fact of Table 3 stands 21 out and that is the presence of high levels of two TCDFs, one 22 of which has analytical characteristics comparable to 2,3,7,8 23 TCDF. Did I read that exact quote of Dr. Hileman? 24 A I think so. 48 1 Q And he c a ll s i t a f a c t, d o e sn * t h e , s ir ? 2 A Yes, he does* 3 Q And he said high levels, didn't he, sir? 4 A Yes, he did* 5 Q And he said one of which had analytic characteristic^ 6 comparable to 2,3,7,8, TCDF, did he not, sir? 7 A Yes, he did* 8 Q Now, those high levels that were present, the fact 9 that there were high levels present, was absolutely denied by 10 D r , Callis when he gave you that suggested change in your memo > 11 isn't that correct, sir? 12 MR* MUSGRAVE: I object, Your Honor, to counsel's 13 interpretation of this document* The sentence says one 14 fact of Table 3* The sentence refers to only one table 15 in this document, in the entire document and its entire 16 contents, does not say what Mr. Carr is saying it says* 17 And that is a mischaracterization of the evidence* 18 MR. CARR: The chemist that wrote the document, and 19 he wrote it after he did all the tests, he said one fact 20 of Table 3 stands out -- and this is after he did all 21 these tests and all these analyses, and found that an 22 isomer present was -- one isomer there was 2,3,4,8 and 23 did his study to discover that one isomer of the two was 24 2,3,4,8, he said, however, one fact of Table 3 stands out - 49 Vv ) ' t * f 2 -^ 3.; ' 4 ';: 5:' r.-`Y \ -7 - y >10 * .ii-,'1 2 ;'' * w 13 ` 14 ir rv\ / i .1 /' !janci that; s tie' jprsehce'f' high- levels, of taw- .TCDFs.,.- -v;. --'V^ * Y : 'iiy Y.& Y \ ...M R ;JnJSGR&V triable, 3. is not the Mt^ft^ochuarot, , .. v * 1 - K v l ; V..--- , **>!:?.'''. . Y y .rk.^Xt*5\^\k' 1 '. - ^ .A >' ' - ', -, ."v .t t- -, ^ `>.* V - . , ,, ..YiY-.Ff---'-*Mj*sR.**.>>'i/;'-(ff''*CYitA,', Rj*R',LL: :..-'`Al" 'n1I**'*dYv*j; \>nYr`.YoiYbjYoYdVYr -fy' 5 s_a11.ir-d'i-.ti.s','.v' .v-YjwT,lhYiL".*r..i. .:e4 t-'Ji *" 'sa/l o.^'*i-trYo-e.t*.<* . ,, `' .; > ". / * ` r'v`* <' .1/ d*\j. 'v '' 'V >t 1 S\ ^ V y y y facte ; ' V ? - '7 ^^SGl^VEr Yes,; y6u did, *5*. Carr. -That's- ''-i ;,; iri. >AC ,i'v. y /. '?y/v (J y 'y ^ y ; y 'j f j 'exa`ctly what you tried to 'aay, jarid 'you know I t 'was''a- ^ vt"/V,*v';t.-v' ,. ^^ * > f J t - '_ fmiarepreeentat:iioon. , . r v>/-y y; ; ' v 'y i\ y ^ r- y y b v. :'" ^ ' 1jv*') ` p,iJ ` , M R . ;-CARR: I read this W V C , *- 7 exactly, .counsel, that o n e r ; -lV: ?* v>-' ' ' V ; f-, - ^ y u ^ X v - y ^ 'fac,t.,r.whiett"herr-i tL1`1sr':.-av fact` `in T.able1 3 or t a, f1ac'^t'.,'1,i'n'^ 1i`,*,- yV ^ : Table'"5,ya fact is";a.'fact,isa fact. ^ :r -v'^Y "`-y^ IV- ^v il`t. ^ v r' i-' ;*v \ ^ *`.' . ^ TO.,MUSGRAVE: Not in reference torthe entire ;\ j. document.. When you first mentioned; it, Mr ./Carr/ you-.'/1;* / ,t ^ * i ... , ^ *-"*' -1 V. *ij A*/ .`said brie fact without referencirigronly Table 3, which is ; /.,v. 15. I 16 v 17 ^ ` 18 -: 19 2 ; 21 " `' what Dr ; Hiloman said in ^the report *- y ' J' 't / . , , 'r ,~ i \ ; ' " *MR. ;CARR a Dr sir? - , ' * . Hilentan ^says-i t 1s ' .. 11 ' a fact, does . ;r'**wii * . * >i *r he"hot . 'f"S ^ r ' !/ , Y 1 r' Jl k ' t ^ V /* iv Vfl T' THE-COURT s - Objectipri is overruled.V v - .V y y y i i y - .;:t, , / iMR. MUSGRAVE: Objection to the s t atement`he: just ,j ;/ - ' / ''<\'Tj- '.t, , . X ' ~ y L - -*'l>. V said 'Dr; Hileman says it's a fact of Table 3. V. .... V-, v- k`' ' ` ,` ^ ^'r '* ,r . ~lr' ]'< _ r'' ', J - ' ' * `/r' V ,, j ., , , THE COURT: OverruledV objection is'overruled. Y y *.* *.r .22' i*J \?23 ; Q' ^ (MR. CARR) .1 don't care if it's a fact^bri :Table .5 . Y M - "iV* /- -/ , - , - -, v *'Y * Y * or Table 10, a fact is a fact is a fact, isn't it, M r v `Park? \ 24 A J The word 50 - -a a r i it nod io o io ' t ' n '3 n n o a v s, f 1 Q My q u e s t i o n i s a f a c t i s a f a c t , i s n ' t i t , s i r ? 2 A I assume so* 3 Q And this chemist says that it's a fact as shown by 4 Table 3 that there are high levels of these TCDFs, doesn't he, 5 sir? 6 A Right, he says it -- right, the presence of high 7 levels of TCDFs* 8 Q And Dr* Callis represented to your committee without 9 any analysis of his own that that wasn't a fact, didn't he, si: 10 A Mo, he did not* 11 MR. MUSGRAVE : Objection* That's not what Dr Calili 12 represented 13 THE COURT: Overruled. 14 A Mo, he did not. 15 Q (MR* CARR) lie said also it was noted that no 16 2,3,7,8 dibenzofurans were found in the 2,4-dichlorophenol, 17 didn't he, sir? 18 A Yea 19 Q tie meant, and you would readtthat and the person 20 reading that would it to mean that Monsanto did not find those 21 things that looked like 2,3,7,8, would they, sir? 22 A Mo, not necessarily* 23 Q Not necessarily? 24 A tie said that that particular thing was found in the 51 "'v >*, //V. t-P* f:' ;:V '.. . v` ^ ' ''V;* ' . ' ,:*-y .* `' y. * /y v*rcV A i!'* ' V *- "" yr 7 r: .. , 2 . ' ' 3 ,' 4i J* 1 * */% '*'*7 .2,4-dichlorophenol. ' '" -Q /--*'.*N4(o,'',;rh'e t.says that\n1o-:2,.3;,74,l.O"s 1w, ere f o ' . ^7 . unyd-',v,;h.e'V; * '` ^4 stat e s**.-";7*'.rt*.. \ , r, , . 7- V ' ' > ,1 '- * ^ 1` .* >` , l; i *. *' .iJt' as ** an ' a f fi L r ` m a t'iLvv^,e** fac;t.; ; He alleges',.,'he*-s_t.'a/teVs-i,'pJ-*o' s-iV-ti'vely *1 >, 2,.'4 ** .. that none were fouinnd, doesn11 hey sir?; *\ ; V ( "-.* f j S : *'* *j , J . t * ., t. V . i >^ J * * "j ! ** * r ? ^ * *_ ^^ .5' - -A - That's correct; /l-' / t J<- /'L_'J , .. ' ' V /v * \i * * rJ '' ' ' . . -- 1 L* t - L I ,J :T . , '/, , ,, , * - - .*V ;. . *- / 'l ,i;-7s-\'V!*:.-f, . .i b 1' ' i.'*, v ' . 1 * I , J . /. ` ; 6 . \Q And does theLchemist say that, -the cheihlst tliatv>' ;. V >jt 11 , J ' "r / S j : ''*') ;\.y ' y','^ 1^ A 7 analyzed,it;' or does the chemist say that.;it's a fact? v.r'*.Q 8. A / Ho, w h a t '`the: chemist says -- ^ V * t - . l *7` > / - 'r'i PEN G A D C O .. O AY.O N N E. .N .> . 0 7 0 0 1 FO RM IL 14 B 9 <> _ t 10 ,y- H R . ,MUSGRAVE: Again; X dbjct, he's misrepresehtihg i t\ ' r ', r , .y * / r - . , ^ .J . ,, F, . trying;to hook this up with that. Your. H o n o r , 't h e 'chemist 'Vi I r '\ 11 j r+ p r 12 fc . 13 V' '*\ j `1 4 , .. 15 V v 16 17 - 18 , ,1 9 < Bays it's .one faot of ..Table-3 r >V ;^vJ',VA^(K--J/.-i . t' . : r 'm[rR. CARR: . The Court; Jias overruled counsel's v.'./t '! v, .* obj ,,it* e c'tiiio-opnn -7 ` ,r ,>. ''; '-E/ .' < ,'/"l *.> v ' : -'i*-w' : 4i''r?i | 1 1 '. 1 i ,, \ 'H ` , /.'*M R y M U S G R A V E J u s t ; a >* second, Mr .'Carr, .until 'I I . r," . r !:;"; !% , ` >l2 * \ \ *-l " , . V '. , ' '. ,, 7 It ^ finish'my objection. : Ee says it's;one fact of Table 3.iv, ."V,, If* '' `- ^ * -`V " t ./ -**, : l .y- And I insist that .the'Statement on Table 3 b .`what'the' ,t; J.^ S ' \ chemist said a n d :is ,what .is represented in the document r ; .v \ ;; ;.-v;V y . y > i(^ " ' v, > ,1 < 1 . f, /' j* *s I SJ ;.s > * `and not wliat Mr. Carr -is novr trying to say. *' ' J\ f ' i y / ' . 7. ' '` ' ' ' ' " `i. # > e- ' , , ` ' - ` 1 . ,i j `* - ' `r*'TEE COURT: .Objection is overruled. , v y. - * . .*'.** . % V ;V ' 1 ., I . .- .- `20 '1;-* > / i-This `exhibit/ the", chemist 's' exhibit here is '-not/'f- '1$ :' v 21 -. 22 necessarily inconsistent'with what, Dr. Callls said. ...The chemislt: " ~'>s -J \ . . d o e s h o t state that 2,3,7,8 is present.}, , ,. 24' . Q And so this document then. -- excuse me. Do-you ' understand, Mr. Park, that when one takes ah oath he'says he " 4 ' - 5.2. - i.'i .4- >*1 1 -. i s - ' - ' i f 2';' f ? *' )>>' 1 will tell the truth, but the oath goes farther than that, 2 doesn't it? It's not just to tell the truth, but the oath 3 requires you to tell the whole truth, doesn't it, sir? 4 A Of course. 5 Q And if you just tell part of the truth and not the 6 whole truth, that can be the sane thing as a lie, can't it, s 7 A It would be contrary to the oath. 8 Q That's not what I asked you. 9 MR. MUSGRAVEs Objection to the line of questioning 10 as irrelevant and immaterial, Your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Overruled. 12 A I don't know that it would be exactly the same as 13 a lie. 14 Q (MR. CARR) You don't know that it would be 15 exactly the same? 16 A I would not classify that as exactly the same as a 17 lie. It would be contrary to the oath. If one swears to 18 tell the whole truth and one does not, that would be contrary 19 to the oath. 20 Q And when he gives you half of the truth, without 21 the rest of the truth, you indeed can be misled and you can 22 act on your peril upon half of the truth, and juries can come 23 to wrong conclusions just on half the truth, or just on 24 ninety percent of the truth, can't they, Mr. Park? Governmen - 53 - /-, ^ ^ A Iu1\i -* '< K t'* 1V i'.* s t-, / ' ; * M, r-y '. 1 agencies, just -like -juries/ can reach- wrong conclusions .!just ' , f - ! ;r ' v" . ' ./' ^ ;-v --" .v ' \ ` -r'-- 1 - <`/*"' : * ' .>, .`Vi'v/V </'/ [2 oh a part-of the fact,, c a n 11 they,' sir? - v. -v -- ,=*/ .'-r v v . v ,';1 *\. 3r " 'MR* 'MUSGRAVE: I object to.. thequestion .as-being" \/ ** r , ' J ." * . * "i- ' r * 1*1* '* ^ pa1 ' * , * 4 vagu and- indefinite, without reference to',`any particular 5* fact .relevant nd material to,>thls case.' It's totally r \ ' - J..;' -r' , / r. 7 '` , 'L V ` r ' ' 1 rn " V r " ' 'i 6 ^ improper questioning,. 1 - \ *1 :; 7 ; , , ;*';THE 'COURT: .Overruled.' t ' M ^* i* *-> \ \ *'A. . "-j ' '"-, i ' r ,*. = ri^-'' - *- -`I \ r J/1-. ' - i ' 8- A ,' Obviously it;*s .desirable to have as much of t h e t; , . V ' 0 ; _ ji Vv 9 truth..as'possible. % *v ^v " . . L \' Y` Vv- V v ^V; 10 rQ';j CARR) That i s n 't what .1 asked you, Mr . P a r k . ' .1.:- - -^ t - \ (( "J1 ,, ** - a- - 1 ^ , - O **-' i xi 11 X diidd.r nn't -i ^ J - r * ' ask you whether or p1 not it ^ was J' desirable. \ ^ r a ** I,;asked: *- , * *jr. . , >, - . `A j ^ ; ) - f ' . -'.\5-,i1.,-f..- '" -* -, /"'1* v,TV -*' A* '. ' ''' r. S* J '.** , 12 u'whther'or iipt*juries can .be, misled j u s t g e t t i n g part', of-,. ' '- / ' * ;` '/ `ri^t,v}r. ,'"'t ` `^; r'/'' ; ,t, ` '`,]U"' , ''t-* J 1- *../'t i^.,;*_t?./ ''*'V.1^J,*f 1 - , r' A* . J * 13 ; the ' , r . truth , and governmental _* - . 1 agenices can be. misled * , .* " <1 1 V. just getting' ' t * " - Vs 'J ^ ' '.V -'*i' V part' of the truth, that'sVwhat I asked you, Mr. Park, isn,'t , /<vS , V4 15 , that correct,/ sir?- , ? ;/ " 7> ; ' . . if *r 1 6 a * . ' A r, .r,.It .^might;be possible . Si . v;,';V,\ ^ r,;. t -v y 17 ' 1 Q ..Yes. You know jgovernmental agencies can b e misled Vi, PEN CAD C O .. BAV N N E. N .J. .\ 18 ' , if they are? just getting ,part of the truth, don 11 you',.sir?' ' * ; .- ' - < a -.--',- t j* >> a-1,>. /-f.>-- ' Y r{- - *. r ' -< ` 19 y A ,,-,MR. MUSGRAVE: .May-my'objection to the type "of T'.' * . ' ' - t-` r . ` T- . . f --'; 20' V.;. .. ' . 1 . ,1-\ ^ ' 1 , /' f if . '' , ;f> j s , a questioning as vague a n d indefinite, without any relatidli^ V -21 -, L.' J 1 .?'' " ^ ship to the. issues in this lawsuit be a^ continuing c A-/' `a . vi , -- ' i jvi-,' , U -' 1 ' " l -^ s'3*'--v V'vV . i'p i;. > > *1I f /, *' . : *4.`-r V . v 22 objectionV: Vi 23 ,: .-THE COURT: .Sure, itts h o t e d ? ; 'V^` ^ ^i ` aT - p jf* - 1 ^ i - S ** ' 'l ,* f, . ' 2 4 ^ I -don't knpw' that, ho. %; ; > -& v '?A ^ V y 'T -; ; ;;* - 5 4 - , 1 Q Do you know that juries can be misled getting just 2 part of the truth? 3 A Juries should have as much of the truth as possible. 4 Q That isn't what I asked you, Mr. Park. 5 A Might be. 6 Q And did this document that you put memoranda to file 7 in compliance with the law, did it tell the whole truth when 8 it said it was noted that no 2,3,7,8 dibenzofurans were found 9 in the 2,4-dichlorophenol? 10 A Yes. II Q Isn't the whole truth, put a comma there, what we 12 found high -- the fact is we found high levels of two TCDFs, 13 one of which has all the analytical characteristics of 14 2,3,7,8 TCDF? IS A No, not at all. 16 Q And it is, you believe then, I take it, that what 17 and the way that your committee treated the fact pointed out 18 by the chemist in Table 3 was proper and appropriate and that 19 you were fulfilling your complete obligation under Section 20 8(e), is that correct, sir? 21 A I think I can rely fully on someone with the 22 qualifications of Dr. Callis, who have explored this subject 23 and confirmed what he put in his memorandum to me. 24 MR. CARR: Your Honor, would you direct the witness 55 I*INGD CO to answer the question that I asked him. 2 THE COURT: Mr. Park, you have to answer the 3 question. 4 A I think Dr. Hileman wrote this. Dr. Hileman's report 5 was dealt with properly. 6 MR. CARR: Your Honor, would you direct the witness 7 to answer the question. 8 THE COURT: That was not responsive. You have to 9 answer the question that was asked of you, Mr. Park, I 10 am directing you to. 11 A As I recall the question, the answer is yes. 12 Q And has Monsanto so far as you know, and all the othe r 13 8(e) meetings that it's held, dealt with the subject matter 14 and made its report in the same fashion and with the same idea 15 toward whether or not you are fulfilling your obligation under 16 the law as you did in the instance of the November,1981 meeting ? 17 MR. MUSGRAVE: Objection, vague and indefinite. 18 THE COURT: Overruled. 19 A Yes, we always try to fully fulfill our obligations 20 under the law. 21 Q And you are doing that in the same fashion in t h e s e 22 other meetings as you did on the November 24, 1981 meeting as 23 reported in your memo of December 18, 1981, Monsanto's Exhibit 24 882, is that correct, sir? *K - 56 - \ 1 MB. MUSGRAVE: Same objection, vague and indefinite. 2 THE COURT: Overruled. 3 A I 'm sorry, I am a little confused by the question. 4 You mention Monsanto's Exhibit 882 and I d o n 't have that 5 before me. 6 Q That is the December 14, 1981 memo that we have 7 been referring to all morning. 8 A The answer is yes. 9 Q Now, you knew at that meeting that you held on 10 December -- on November 24, that it was vitally important to 11 discovery whether or not these furans were poisonous and toxic, 12 didn't you, sir? 13 MR. MUSGRAVE: Your Honor, just for the record, 14 may my objection to the relevancy and materiality of the 15 continued examination on furans be noted as a continuing 16 objection. 17 THE COURT: Sure. 18 MR. MUSGRAVE: With this witness. 19 THE COURT: It's so noted. 20 A I would assume that the toxicity of the furans was 21 considered by those present qualified to do so. 22 Q Is the answer to my question yes? 23 A Yes. 24 0 And y o u knew t h a t i f y o u c o n c lu d e d t h a t t h e f u r a n 57 ,J 1 '' 'P & v :A . t- , :.* ; ~ ;v ;'' ' `V* ^ 'J 1. V, .'.r-ft J S 1I '*' ` levai, th high levels- of furari i n /that product Constituted-,a * - ,"* ft*-' ' * /ft1'*"ft' '/ ftft/. ftft n;r ? i* * : 2 " health risk , you knew .that pu would have :to re^rtVthatr tb' ,,;. i j* b' ji" ft'.-.. v*- % r*; \ i v, '*'1v.,, t'j ./**`ft 3 the EPA/ didri'tiyou^sir?ft ' \ ft * i . \ v ` . i '' I.-/ ,v v !.. /,,, * * -,ft , t ! ,<:-i ., ; ft 'v*^ 4* ' ' 5 .\ -6 A r' If "forany reason we had concluded, that there1was/a'/ ft;.; : ?'-ft/-*'.:1 substantial risk of-* injury to health Or ,the ^environment,. w ,\-' ii ' - L. . ' o ` -ft.* 'I J' * ft V- ft':. - /-Y ' J `ft would have so'reported- to t h e -EPA- ` ft i r .. J - ' p- r* * ' n, ", ft, v /' * - - . T\, *,, .* , - -I 7 Q ft-.'Is, the'answer to my question yes., Mr* Park? : (.;* tjr ! ,8 . ./ft* A - If that would have been-sufficiently high, yes.; V ' ' f t - ' ' ' '' P " - ", r \ V. \ ; ^ - ,`vp\i ; J- x. . 9 .- ' Q' "And therefore you had considered-at that time',- .. ft '-.ft :/'.v "f"ft...... -.ft ' ^V"'`f->t;v'`t-.lp.;"'>MJvi >. io; ", Whether or nbt 'it was, toxicftddn' you, sir? " -ft 'ft'-. ;,/ft, -1 ' M ' * " >k `j> * ;u' I 1I .A; /The toxicity p f the: furns together with 'th/use , . ; ' 1 2 ; ' of the product, all relevant factors would 'have been/ ,.ftftft' ,, /, , . . ' ,, ,-n T'-*V*j , . " 1 3 , \ .'con8dQred,':,r4r.<;Carr.b ; ~J< ,.* ' ri * ", 1 p ; ` , -*'. '* ftft ' . ' * ''ft '14 ', ; : ' ^ f t i - f t - f t . . - l'::.-"*#.- Q ; " pAnd you asked for -information as to that ;toxicity ,- ' 1,f-'s1<.\',r. r . iv> jj-, ft; ; ?\-i ftT/ fp.- *- ` '`-ft i ftft ftvis- V your committee masked*-,fdr-andftreceived information as to the, :->v' * '16 " r*. " '*',i t - * /( ^ *' 1 ;+- ^ j-* `i^ ^ ^ ^ r jr. ^ 'v -, ft, - - "v^/tm-\ '> :.i ril*** ft' '- tf t if t -` .toxici^t1y. Y,-Jf^u'r,i,r'hs^V^.^-;l.-d'--"^"tf^t-1,ou"'i' sir? :.v-/ - ftv .'--';/.'P *- 'J . . J-.'/ v-, >r . P' , '' . 1' .1 Ir* , '' -. ' 1 ' ` ' - P v v- 1 ,. ^ ` ^ ' , *V Aft; / I think' some of the -conanittee probably'was familiars - . 'ft' ft ftft. ftftft-^ -ft'fti,ft''-ftft,ft ftV /' * ft ftvftftft ft/;* ` 18 v 19 , ; / 2 0 Jl- V -21/ - 22 - y, 2 3 ' " 1. 24 with toxicity fipfraneft ft-.`.ft ft ' - 'ft ft?,, ft ft ft* - v''- / ft;\ft >, '-'.'ft- `ft1ftft / `/ft: -'-ft-/ft {ftftip" ft-,.,,v^; '` 'ft-/;ft *'* '' ' Q r -ftnd, of course, you knew -- :is -the,.answer to :that -/ :ff-tr^ ' ' ft'' '* '' ' ' 1w , ' ' . i-` r : * y1 -. ** / , t, * question /y s ,"you -did g e t Jinformation? "; *'`ft:ft/;-:*1 /ftftft.'-:?!ft;./> li'.*. '"0 , fti /' . ; ' v / ; /'. ' f t / . ' " " / : ft : 'ft/.' /'/ft i~u ft A t.v Right, in - fc . . I f1 addition to , , , r . \*> J 4 / information S^ J * a ft lr *, e a *-i d * y / k n r o%w*n*'4.* ^ + >.. ' `ft ' ftft L`> ,: ^'ft*J : ft ftft/'" , . '//ft A \ - ftij ft.,- ^ " Q . And you knew, of course, that the 2,ft3,7,,8 TCDF'was''/ ' " ft ft-'- -'ft'vft. s'.ft'f.-^.'v ` ft; ^ft-ft* . -, ft th 'most, toxic o f ftil' th' furans, you knew..-that- s' we , . `n-. f ft '*v . i ' f t `.. \ / ,V.p'-v-*f,tj - v-, ' v y*`yf^? '- * ' v, ...-ft? ; didn't' you?, r* '' . ` ."-ft - ' .ft; . ' .* * -" " - : . r * '> f t - f t ' / -ft- , *` * i ' . p f t ' " ft ` -ft - > f - . .^ - -58 -, a r i kmo zooio. t n 3NMO*a 1 A I can't answer that I don't know Hr*'.Carr. / 2 Q You d o n 't know t h a t ? W ould yo u m a rk .^ th itr P l a i n t i f f s ' 3 Exhibit, please? * . J IN . 4 ' (Plaintiffs Exhibit. Wo* 1305 was marked for 5 ide*n.ti<ffication by the reporter as nre1qu,es*ted*) 6 Q ' (M R. CARR) Handing you what;'s been marked P l a i n t i f f 7 Exhibit No. 1305 you recognise that again as one of the , i'* 8 documents that came from your file do you not sir? 9 A Yes, I do. , J * . i> 10 Q Y o u r T S C 'f il t h a t X saw l a s t n ig h t , yo u s e e t h a t , 11 d o n 't 1y o u , ' s i r ? : . ;V : /. > ' 12 A " I recognize it as being in the file, yes.; . fj I * Li " ^ (. * r * 13 Q' *; And i t i s in f o m a t io n a s to t h e t o x i c i t y o f f u r a n s , 14 i s n ' t i t i' `s i r ? ' j/.*; 1r * v / * 15 MR. MUSGRAVE: May I see the document, Mr. Carr? 16 M R. C A R R; oh, I'm sorry. ^ *' * rt -.* 17 " M R. MUSGRAVEx Thank y o u . 1 - 1 - J \+ -* T p` 18 A I t d o e s a p p e a r t o d e a l w it h t o x i c i t y o f f u r a n s . 1 * * 1 j * * * ,, 19 Q It discussed whether or not there is exposure to - l *_.* :\ r 20 humans that might eat fish containing these furans/doesn't; 21 i_t, sxr? ' ,- ` ' . - *l r ",`T1^ ''*- j. : *y 22 A Yes. *- j 23 0 And discusses how the humans consume fifty grams 24 of fish per day? Paragraph 3 under the letter A? " i. - 59 - 1 A Yes, yes, I see that. 2 Q It discusses how much exposure the humans will have 3 to this furan contamination in the 2,4-DCP, doesn't it, sir? 4 A Yes, I believe so* 5 g It discusses exposure via drinking water, doesn't it, 6 sir, on the next page, Paragraph B? 7 A Yes* 8 U It also discussed whether or not there is going to 9 be widespread significant exposure from the use of 2,4-D on 10 cropland, doesn't it, sir? 11 A Yes* 12 g Mow, all of those things -- and it also discusses 13 whether or not there can be exposure as from a spill, for 14 instance, acutely as in a spill, correct, sir? IS A Yes. 16 g And you understand that means if the product is 17 spilled in the plant, or if the product might be spilled on 18 the way to someplace, like in a little town in Sturgeon, you 19 understand that that's what that's discussing, don't you, sir? 20 A Spill at any location. 21 g Yes. And it discusses in that regard, the minimum 22 fatal exposure, doesn't it, sir, to guinea pigs? 23 *- MR. MUSGRAVEi EPA, Mr. Carr. .4* m 24 g Yes, indeed. It does, doesn't it, sir? f/ 60 .' J j V' 1 A Well, it says maximum' exposure . . *,- t, . i . ;c'. 2 ' Q The .comment at the bottom of the page, sir,:comraent, 3 . EPA gives the minimum fatal exposure to 2,3,7,8.TCDD in guinea 4 pigs as .6 micrograms per, kilograms, doesn't .it, sir? U' 5 A ,;Y e s ^ ' 6 Q How; the person, that did this/ calculation calculated ?/'; ("/. -/T/ I/ \F 1 j. - 7" that thia exposure as if/ in a/spill are chronically, acutely .1J7\ \` ***- ' * V -1 wV ' 8 in this instance-that they--would get .ll micrograms per r\ ;-Vr) * ; ?- r '.v;' .- * - ,9. hilogramf didn't theyi^iiir7^'-f\* ;v, _ `V;7 /. : ; y` _J-`] '>,*^^ ''"ip- ' 10 MR. MUSGRAVE: " Lees'than, Mr. Carr. ' IT., J 12 A Where are you reading? Q Hot more than . -- Paragraph 1-C under, the. letter D. 1 \t ..> ,; ,\* i . * ,1; / i ** 13 ' 14 fr l r ,, - MR. MUSGRAVE:' Less . than,9 Mr. Carr. , i * - ' '. f * p , ^ K 1 /t t 1 1. ' ,V i i. Q (MR. CARR) Get hot more them .1 micrograms par, %?`.'A' fj J.j * . i f;'* v'*. y^ 1 15 kilogram, do you see that, sir? ' . ,/v. ,, ft' y * 16 ` A That's right, yes. - ;' ' * ,7 / 1 (--7 17 .M R MUSGRAVEt Objection Your Honor,. V , ; 18^ V 19 THE COURTS Overruled. r ; .> '\ Q . (MR. CARR) And they are maVk"i1ng` equaaioJ-nws S-t`he'r'e* r ' 1` i * v - , ` .- . . t, -; 20 micrograms per .kilogram for the guinea pig and micrograms' per ' , * . .' J- ' \, lV V . . , ^f V* - F- 21 '( - , v ^1 I- ` 1 kilogram for the human being, aren't they, sir? -T-j ;' 22 A. Ho*does make, a comment, y e s.' itV''J' 23 24 ~ i ' >. ' Q - ' A nd - ' 'th' i 1 s .ca - l c ua 1. t i o n - says'that ^ a ' human being ,` ' ^ would .be K Fl jtC' ^ e*x. pvos,ed to .1'm'icrograms of that which , is f a t a ll t"o 7 . .6' inf,icrjo;?gram 3 - 61 - P E N G A D 'C O .. BATO N N E. f i.J . 07001 FORM IL 2 * B J' .* 1 in guinea pigs # doesn't it*/sir? j 'f t *\ / '* 2 N o M r . Carr, I (believe -the guinea -pig number / 3 relates to dioxin and .4 * q *r;/-/oii;!yes> ,2,3,7/8 T C D D w h i c h .we have had testimony ,! V : '' r / V t * j ./' -.**, y- - . ' 5 * ' \ > V i\ v :V / i V * ' : ", ' , *- ' is -- 2,3,7,Q TCDP has toxicity c l o s e ,to It- - And :h e ,knows, 6, v ^ ; 'y ' r' ../ ; h e 's talking about TCDF* t h a t 1s what the whole document is J- " '' . ' \V , F ri * 7 abouti is about furariSr/fi^'tVit, sir? - : ' 8 A The rest of it appears to' b e , b u t i t just says * .i .1 -t -.* *' . . ` .' 9 comment / colon, and it says EPA, gives th minimum fatal < ^>j - 10 exposure to 2,3,7,8TCDD, d i o x i n , i n guinea pigs / V; /'; i' V, 11 r ; ,. Q So what it says, here is that a human exposure vis % . I N' 12 - ' - -\ . .T" :.S v/ ;/ ;'/ 'f * -' t '' going to be getting one-sixth-of the dose p e r k i o g r a m , \ s o : /' fo r13 the equivalent per kilogram for the guinea pig dr kilogram 14 a human being is equivalent, h e 's going to bs getting one-sixtji ' 0 15 the dose that would kill guinea pig, doesn't he, sir? .' Not v/' ri'. ; `` 16 more than one-sixth? * 1, r ' * V\v ,, ti r f r .M . ' .v. 17 A He is not talking about the same thing, though,. Mr. 1 8 Carr* . 1 9 Q . Is that what the document says? h* ^ t i ** y V20 a ' n o \ iV. ,V` ; , 'C- ` * ' 21 ^ V -. MR. MUSGRAVE: Object. Mr. Carr's statement-is a>i'.r ' 22' '' .1 S-. _ 1 . ;t-*,) miareprentation of t h e .document,. He knows it says .that H .23 the calculation there says less than .1. '24 MR. CARR j;; Your Honor -- -* K-f V `r _ * % f* .^ - 62 - B A Y O N N E . N.J. ' 0 7 0 0 2 F O R M tL 24 B 1 THE COURTS Overruled* 2 MR* CARRi The caret there can be read leas than or 3 more than, and counsel continues to make that objection 4 and could we agree that he has a standing objection so 1 5 might not be interrupted on this point, you have over 6 ruled him about twenty times* 7 THE COURTS Why don't we just make it a continuing 8 objection* I think that's a good suggestion* Thank you* 9 Q (MR* CARR) Equates the exposure here to one-sixth 10 per kilogram not more than one-sixth per kilogram as that which 11 is fatal to guinea pigs for the same kilogram weight, isn't it, 12 sir? 13 A I don't think he equates to* 14 Q You don't think so? 15 A No* 16 Q Does he not work out the exposure levels there? 17 MR* MUSGRAVEt My objection also to this individual 18 being asked to interpret this document and what it means 19 and what the author meant when he did not author the 20 document* 21 THE COURTs It's overruled and it will be a 22 continuing objection* 23 MR. MUSGRAVEs And of his interpretation of this 24 document, both on his background and experience as well - 63 - B A Y O N N E . N.J. 1 as the fact, Your Honor, that it was authored by somebody 2 else, 3 THE COURTS It's a continuing objection Overruled 4 on all counts 5 A 1 would construe what he says here in this D-l, that 6 he has a theoretical formula and he gets down to saying that 7 the exposure, acute exposure to human beings in the event of 8 a spill would be less than one-tenth of a microgram per 9 kilogram of furan* Then he skips a space and says comment: 10 EPA gives the minimum fatal exposure to 2,3,7,8 TCDD, the 11 dioxin, in guinea pigs as 0.6 micrograms per kilogram I 12 would read that as just merely making a comment, not comparing 13 the two, 14 Q Well, why has he got it in Column A, B, C and D if 15 he is not comparing the two? 16 A X don't know 17 Q You don't know that, do you? 18 A I don't know 19 Q What he says in A, B, C and D is that a human being 20 is going to be getting per body weight per kilogram one-sixth 21 the dosage of the total TCDFs of that which has been fatal 22 as far as 2,3,7,8 TCDD is concerned in guinea pigs 23 MR, MUSGRAVE: Object, Your Honor, that's not a 24 question, that's counsel testifying, and the witness has 64 V*1 '`>i r y ^ t V fv*VT' Y :.f ' * r I '1 Js 'VY", ,U ' i. V; "LA"*1-/Y,l*-,^-' '/ Y" . 1. . . < ri :::> k- -v- s &*' Y -> ^-y. y.y y;y - ' ./1 ; ' a *y ,-f\ , V ' - t ; " * ` -, , * i - *"*> ' v 1, .* ^ ' v r'4,; .YV, & '4->? r . f- ^ ' ' ~t</ -- ,, V , . . '> i-' , ' -l/fJ-'*- .` ''V'r- ^ T^ - .-'. ,!J , -?* -fIt"..t-. F '. already.ans^ered/the-question, that he doesn't Know r he's-. % yi ,1 V . ' 2, r W V %.iVC- *' 'J *'> ^ 3* r / V> 1 v i ' . r v ,.r . ` ` r not ah .expert ' > >,*; f in this, area, ,, he - . 1 j, doesn't ` k no w# 1 - f ! - V tf* 4 . Your. Honor, > - '.y;; ';V-V3` rJ ( , 1 %'1 * yy ;vy : y' -*5'. ,. V : Y 6 `- V 7V 1 r -8 : ; , ..Jy~ ' y - 1> * "Y K* >' '-v'y Y ? 2-y and now counsel is ;testifying X object and;requestl.that; - r-, i ' - 'y': ' ^ O' - V s* ^jJ`V .'' *' .,, the jury ib instructed to disregard i t . '.\ ,'ik * i .' . vTHE ;CVOURT '' ' 1 -v` - ' overruled ,on. yall pointe. ' _ r1. 1r * ' ' i ^ . , r-`y;-. >>;m//."W> t * i * * , *' * y.y v y i?* 1 * - > t*t* 'vtJ' y .. v,- ; * y ' : m*-.\ y--' v>-"v; L v*" -** - , Q : Xsn Vt that what he is sayihg there?. ;1 W . A ,,X//'!,hjTav,e. no'idea what: he' had-in'mindly 'f`- - j ."J v.-r, . 1` " 1 ` * r , * y /. t- r i* y* r -- a -, 1 ,.-;L'Vr^'-i .."> , Q , You ha v e : ho id e a -w h a t1h e h a d i n m in d . Th e n e x t ; p ag e * .y > "y/."y ''yy *.; " ^yry -vy* ^ y; -y y \ - t _ .-r/r . k, hevv d is c uu sssseess ' c h r o n ic , e x p o s u re , t o `i tt/ , d ob e sn *?t h e , . s i ir ?r ? *; ;,yy.'- .. y :.''., T,, f B A YO N N E. N .J.- 0 7 0 0 2 FORM ' I L ' A B h y 10 ,; ; h . ; ; - .Y e s ./. v \ ,y - ' .*- HV" , _ y y . y y . j' j r 1^11 .rs^ ^ y `j';`.y ' y^.i ..f`|" n '*y y 11 ^ *' .. * ,> y > ? v*- , N . j f V , _ Cii:..1'- * V nV - V ' ; Q, . y B u t h e s a y s ;h e .c a n ' t p e rfo rm a s i m i l a r c a lc u la t io n ^ /.j \ u , b ecau se y o u 'v e g o t no in fo rm a tio n on c h ro n ic no e f f e c t e xp o su re 1 , Vf rv . : 'y.vy; .. ' 13 f o r 2 ,4 -"DCP,j d o e s n 1t h e i s i r ? / _ - /' ' , , -/. i', ^ y '<' ;y r';* ,''**` ^4i>y.,.;1v*H>'4v"V.C'y?*'p.* J t l t1 4 '" i' ** y ' '1A y,-v;Yesr;he' d o e s ^ V ^ ' y'-'-' V^.-vy ^ .`^y. / -f ^;y i"y.,Vy V -,15 " ,0 And he is not;even talking about chronic exposure to ^y ; > vr ( * . * .a ,' \ ' t* .'if.*-' *r -17 ^* the furane , i%* s^ ?h e , fo r 2, 4-DCR? S s i r i h e * `a ;talking yabout :chronic exposure '/ . y y :-y. : '-y ;r.'^*- ^y.. , *v y-,y ^ `V , y , aY ^ ,^ i . .. S.': L -s i ,y,y ,, ' - * y * y /-v 18'- "- " , 9 ; ,20 , -,: 'Ary':/''syyyeys-.*, yv y,`'yC ; t-.'. ^ ^-,y v V " yy'.y^o-y-y/* j -.y.^.y , \ ' ' , S ; y '-y-y^> y-. yY-y- -V- ,, - , / Y y / '^ y ^ y-': y r ' ' Q/y y How 0 Lwhen '-y you all ti'^ V> V ' 1:;y 'y ^ V : 'yy-. have this document, r-r-.';.\ its-dated ,.--,y.;,;'yy ; 'V-. i-'*y- -^,* .j . `v /* , Novemberr 18, '19 81, and the subject is. background' fbr your : - , . . '`` ' i y - , - ,' ' y ^ y, ' . . .* y--* v y / j; y- V. Y-y, -V-yy.'., ..-y - y f- .** Y y > ' 21 / .November 28 meetingya (el`/ i you. all had this document %where he, T' ; ,^ V-*;* y A :; y y .y } ''y /'y-'y v /' made thse calcultionB, whre he made. these comments 'at your" f *' " y>y y . v y; ' V y 'y / f r'-':!i\ ('' ,23_ `t-^J 'November 24 meeting, didn 't you , eir? ! " y-y;-^ -r '' - y \,rh^y -^>-v -i 1 .l'-24,':>' ''y " :Vv 1 , 1- ' V, I' J y;. *-. , -A.,, yiywould'assume so, es. ,y; / - .' 'i . ' /' .f y .i - - v . . >. yyysi', .,,v '` ` 1 T Te . ^ r; . "' ,Ky y !-' . y-yi. - v ' p '- , r '.y"" * 65 .r' e s . - --y J' " K i,* y >;>^ - / ;; ._*l;. B?' 1+7 1 Q And you considered' at that ,time whether or hot , * ' 2 t' . * ',*-::* " j .j - people are ,going to be exposed to these at the levels suggested 1 -V >3 in your Hileman1s report, isn't that correct, sir? . l - " : ; / *t ' l". r 4 A Yes. - ,, `* )-' .J Y ' / 1 . : ' r r*1 - \ '` t \ . 5 Q And you decided, I take it, that since t h e r e w e r e r, ' ' , ' ' ' L 1/ ' ' 1 6 no 2,3,7,3 TCDFs found and repo r t e d ,and y o u .decided that since 'i ' * > , >*, 1% *mm ` ' \ .. `v ** ' i '*7_ you have no information.as to the effacts;of chronic exposure, k,*.! . 8 although you know what,, may get one-sixth the dose that would -y 9 be fatal per kilogram weight, y o u .nevertheless ignore the- j'^Vir. 10 'J ' ^ V *' . '* ' ' plain requirements of the law, you discuss exposure at isome^ A. "7 i'\> 11 Ta- fc* lehgth, and you give weight to exposure, you determine whether 12 , ' . '-'j ' 1 ^ . v; or not people are going to eat the fish, whether':or^no.t:a ' K j*^ t * 13 spill might take place, whether or not they are going.to drihk 14 .the water; and you deqided at- that point i n - t i ^ tha^whatev* `iff 15 exposure there was, it waen't going to be sufficient;tb:hurt .v y r- y 16,` r '' * .J*' , ^ ' *'j ' .A* '* " * r J * k*v'' the human being, notwithstanding the comentc made by the authot .* 17 of the document, isn't that correct, sir? 18 A That's, right. There would be Sr no sr ubstantial rick;.- 'l ' `1 1 ' - * / , 19 Q And you ignored the constraint o f the la^r that ,when V 20 you have human health effects as bad a s `death and;daneer and'. 21* '` , . ,, > 1 t . K ' \\ -,, *1V incapacitation, that the fact that it goes in commerce is " i -A- V, 22 23 *rr, sufficient evidence of exposure, you ignored that aspect r o* .' f , - i'$* the law, you found that it didn't apply, you said^thati-it 24- didn't-apply, didn't you, sir? jt * *' ' _ ;;r*. * - 66 - -rq%, `'I J ^ 1 .;;A < :* -r 1 i *c.-%t#/o'.' : r>, ' 'tP EN G A D C O .. .BA YO N N E, N .J, A D id n 't ig n o re i t a t a l l . T h a t's a m isc o n stru c tio n , sir? Mr. Carr. Q Did this memo discuss exposure to human beings? The memo by Dr. Wilson? A The memo doesn't -- let's see. Q Doesn't it say, is there significant exposure to humans eating fish contaminated, doesn't it give you a calculation on exposure, doesn't it say is there significant exposure via drinking water? Is there significant exposure via residues spread on the croplands? Is there significant industrial exposure, acutely, as in a spill or chronically? Doesn't this memo discuss exposure, the entire document deals with exposure, doesn't it, Mr. Park? A The minutes summarize the meeting. Q Dr. Park, directing your attention to Plaintiff's Exhibit 1305 that you have in your left hand, the entire document dvilscvuOsVs'*eldew;exposure, doesn't it, sir, human exposure? A Well, it discusses toxicity, I guess. ' Q You guess. What does the word exposure mean -- A It appears to. Q What does the word exposure mean, significant exposuzje mean? AV* Yes, yes, I do see exposure here. Q The entire document discusses exposure, doesn't it, 67 1 sir? 2 A Yes, it does, 3 Q And the law says however, the fact that it's in 4 commerce, these high levels of these furans, this toxicity of 5 the product, the fact that it's in commerce constitutes 6 sufficient evidence of exposure, doesn't it, sir? 7 A That's only in the event that a product is so 8 dangerous or hazardous that it itself creates a substantial 9 risk of injury. 10 Q Well, by that do you mean you ignore the toxic 11 components of the product? 12 A Mr. Carr, hazardous products are shipped every day 13 around the country. 14 Q You ignore the toxic components of the product, 15 Mr. Park, is that what you are saying? 16 A Of course not. 17 Q Of course not. You do consider it. And you spent 18 some time yesterday with Mr. Musgrave explaining how you 19 consider the toxicity of the components of the product, didn't 20 you, sir? You spent considerable time with Mr. Musgrave 21 yesterday afternoon, didn't you, sir? 22 A Yes, we did. 23 Q Yes. And it is the toxicity of the product as a 24 whole, including its toxic constituents that is the implicated 68 V'v: ^2a yVt * *4 *f . ;;3; 4.'.- h\ T' J`V 4,1 **' i ' r? L chemical? ,f * .. i/fi vf v Vi * , / ^ >w\ _ `.V.V f o \_ rth -. AA- ' . And '*' -\ . Y o u'1v * ' ,rw'rh`Jet,he '\ e got h i r e ,- 't re . - he \ o f * . .health '* ' ^' reffe'b , _r ` ne r- tfh e :pro ' 'V a ts1s\ 'ai " ducf,t . r. /: r>eYk'nio.>w n a .>, . I 'hs*.*'t o .h*e *' . - . n .. d so> ^ 'i'r*i,/J.*.-`.Y) >' t i >' " T * t ' .'*v,y-4-,*;*:t'i*i\*i \" *^^kl.. .' -ft'. commerce `Vv^ -* r " ' ^ ' "***,',. J [ . ^ L ^ ^^ . ` ' -y - * - * ^'r t ? * , ,5 Q Well, the health effects are -knovm. Dr. Wilson. ^ *. : > > < . #v 6 s points, put t h e health;effects, and .they) are* pretty damn .serious* .7 >1 1 V8 '' ; . ' ' -' '' i -aren't they, sir? ] t \ _ r;. j' -V^v . " t * / ' ' ,/ ' \ , ' ' ` 'i'l 1 ` 'v^V'.^ '>,,i: lS`V '. ,v u,l- ' ^ *.r*-.- . i'> 11 . . A- /' ;Yes, he .does v'; It ;can h e ,a .fatal' dose in animals. \ ; - 9 J10; 11 : 12 \, 13.. V ' 14 ' . ' ** , ' ) , 7. r . J. - . . . . - " >. . y . V ' , Q : -And in humans? Now', that's^ pretty .serious, isn't iti ..f'*r 1*/ sir?. Thia is serious healtheffects as listed in. sub part A mI * - , r> v * ' r I '* f1 4 'i * v ; "-V 'l' . L 'J' v. . t ' I* L . r. ;^.. "'- '.YV'v'i -* .below, isn't it, s`i-r? r,,Are tho-:vse hot ser'ious h-realth e-ff:e-;c'vts?' v r- t - r ' ` . M ' t r \ F ;^ 1 Jr f ' k *, T r - - *i T " t i h+ r, ' * l* *! j. .A'. , YThese are riot-new health, e \' ' 1 J * '' .' '' . , L * L 'r * . - " . ">^ /4+` F SJ * S ' Q , Dr. Park, are they serious health effects?^ **` ^ * "J , .J ? r ~ *'*\ 1 ? Tj V' * J 1 f 4L , ** `^ A* -r;/'--*>Y. \ .'A . Which, health, effects,, M r . Carr ^ .. `>; J y i -\- V lAv* ' f. 16 \ ' 17/ v , --v.V.-MRv.CARR: Your Honor, direct the witness t p lguit. y * -4 ..t-h;-i.s.*~V^-,(*4*^, YY - / ' ' "+ Vt, , . ^ ; :''/i t. iS V .i" i ;`-L .. r'V. t. 4Y- ' ' u ^ 1-v 1`JiTf" ,i't, u ) ; L'.-;'v V. "V.-j t ' > V /-i . *. :4 . -THE" COURT s Mr ;Park,'answer.the _question directed. r ' 1.8. to.you; ' W a- , 1'-T,IF* >1. ' - t , '19v ` * F-*1 1 VV,T-r' f' 4 \20 v V \. / 22 23. .' 24 >r- ' *i\ -Yes, yes. -5j ' if* l >' (MR.'CARR)15,1NOW, Mr. `Park, you ignored the" '* ( '* .. ` ',F 1 ^ ~>rf '.* 'L 'J ,' S~i. P E N G A D .'C O ,. BA YO N N E, ` N .J., \ 0 70 02 F O lIH iJL. 24 B ' . \ 'v > '7 '' r / `2 " ' 1 J --*1 .3-'' 7 ' 7 /4 1 ? - v * ; 5 7 7 6. ' ' 7 V I 4 >*l 'M^ .j ,,'v > n ' . vl i- ;i -, \ - , l l i ' ; *>' >,>s1.-- 5-. .A y , , < requirement; of the `law .that says'if it goes out, the-plant -1 . ' 4 ;::v : - ^# &*f - Y '' s 7/J7 f !j 7m * 1" - \ ~t 4 * ^ y * f -. *^ J *tkhda*t11ps souMff^icaine*n-t eAivri^dveiAnncneo Qf .xposuT* 1 ** 1 ,, 1J '* \ ., v ' >1 didn't you, sir? "-0 ^; " 'f 7 T J/ *' *) ^s. -R A No; w d d i d n ' t , Mr. Carr. ' * a */; J" H* ^ ^ 4 ^ ** ` \ 'You ignored * " n - . * * ..; thfc, ^ _v ' * * *j * `7t"Vi*'- ' ' - \ 4j1 -7 *; 0*7', .O't 1>'1* ."'!7`17 *< ' , . * , ',14"i1*-/'iil'.1y1 1 .- - ^ 1 *v T. . , , t * v*/ , , ' ' J r ' *. fc . ' . ' J IV 7 ,:V .Q 7 Did you consider ekposure?;' f ` . . \ .' - *-y 1 '] , ,t ' . 'r >L.A:-"J;.v -, YOG */ *.i f - -> , ...*`'FV rr. i'r.:`Lv :,* Q :.rDoes the, law say that 1 r ; ,J.r '/'y you just "*. / ' in coronerce -J'v.'/ is "`ii'v '"-'Y*.'./ : vy fv. v O. -/.Vj y `ti .V ` i. , 7:.-. T '0'A;77 7`V' sufficient?;; -7 ;/_/ ,.; : y : :^ : .`.*r,, ^ ^ . r-'"1'vr 7 ; OAVONNE, - .J."- 0 O O " FORM 1 L J U 8 9 10 * A \ Q . .No, .it doesn't. " 7 - ", '"It;' d7 oe-sr' i^..'e'La y * that? : ,^ 7 .- v ^ ^'`.:V'7.):'/7 ' ; 7 - i- 7t *f ;*, /, , f< , - . .11 ", < r .` < .. 7 lJ1 > ' - - ' > . " ' L - , . * f`t i 1 ' " v . _ ,'i '! I,77^'4^' A 7 You d o n 11 have the law there ,.M r . Carr ,:you have' 7 7 '/ /, w s< .*. * *> v- r ' 12 'f ''7'.*"'` :l /'' ;Vl ``v ^ '. 7' 7 r `7'7 an excerpt/from'the policy statement of the 7' PA 7a 7 -7 7'7 ' 7 `,^ / 7 ` (. n v: " ' 7 1 S ( .j ^ 16'l.n .;/X 1 8 `. 19 / 20` < 7 7 21V, ;v -22* .23"; 7 Q ^ Kell, do you believe that 4 4L / 'p v , 'r ' . ' S* - this excerpt? 7V ^ .A I:(think that we. have. y o u 've been following ^ 1-rOv-v . /' *V;, ' y , r C-j?'; -7 V- * t '" :o \ t - * F t * r . s ' ' h .' r . . 1 i; f > Y 7t j - M ,. Q 0, A l l *right. 'So,.let1s get back to.-whether you" call/ i t 0*i*7k;r- "7.^=7 * p1*^ ' j1ij r ^J.. ^ ^ > -- - ' j# T r f ^1 * 7 ; 7 7 .. a r u l ) b r - ,r e ita t io n / '"y o u iu n d e rs ta n d i t ' a b in d in g o n . you?- -' - _. J A . .I ' Right. % fp -r:' g , J f \ . -1 * , 4 tm r f '> " 1 1 4 ' ? ' . . . 1 _y . -, .. .' i'.s ` * 1 -I ^ * > - * . . . . L t -. .. .4 A . :' `- 7 J -/- - .. ' . >. -.. v ' J- ' V i' Did you . . . r, . .... . ,, tA 1 . .1 7 1 \ - 0" , ,f - r f* ^, ' , L - t 7 i o 7 ' `s? / 7^ * / V . * 7 \ i y- /> * -V, - ^ . 0* A . 'No . otia, M think, would 'be in conformance .with ;77 .7 - : ' . / o 7 - o: `O-./'o1 ' J 7 .... - * 7 ^ /-f 7 >r the . po ' licy O - V0 stattemen't-.; .4*. . r- ' y of * 11 ; 1 o^'i' -V-* i A'^r;* Q By:discussing exposure and concluding that there 24 "/ - i \ , ti.' ' would be no exposure or no significant, exposure, is that the 1- /r- 1 V r . *7 ' - ' 0 ' t 70 - ft /^ 1( i .' r - V -J' ,x-x. '' /v'ii j 'v 'xxr- ; ifj*/ ,X " , '.A-.* .' *X' .- <;. f - ii ,* . <. . ' , i :F. ,,-X ; *.*#.- ; .,'?' "" 1.* "* i f^ r 'jt * r* ! ^ r ,. L ^ < 1 ',, ' ti f .*L * . - `' ^'r- -1 ' .i V ./ 1'1; , I y ''. ' 'X . , Jr j f t *. s ' Jyy-' ", =>.}';" x \ . * ; way you/followed the ;lawr siri / / / / `/ *' v ' ,p, .it r-* ^| L-' r 1j ^ ' -* i ;^ -- ^ / v ' r \\ " * V 1 ** t r . i 111 K'"t\ r* y - "i ^`.k ` :2 ; / . ,A;/. r It'was/concluded that ,this, product ''// f 111 * t '' 'a *.'/ /. / v.`s*fA-- x :^ v ,,t ',,*/ 1 , ', , ,< " .**'!* ^V _" * ' \ r ^ *jj,* t* >' ^`-1" ' .Q / f'>3y. question is, is. that the way you followed 'theJiaw,; * *r ='J ;4*, j- J J vJ "'5;' -, , n 6, f* /"tr " ; 7 '' . */",,' /;x 8/ * k 'r * 1* 1 r t** X ,9 t* .r c; / jo / ' , r 'Tr * ;oir? ^ ' ^ K - / ! '</' ;: V LL" '* - /A ,/L By considering the toxicity and exposure of. :the /'-v; 7 */y~i vv3to- "v. p r o d u c t ? ^ 1T' Q V;vYes .xx: a ;;v'*J'1Xt;>>Y1fe1Ts*& j ;'/ *''.!' ,` / -j/:-'v / ..j( f; ''* ' `T - r / ' . J. r^j i j. s v v::/^ v, i'*'-J'C>-** *, v' vi. 1 Q : "The t' ^ 4j '' ' t' / J` . I, Y * ' Ti 1 i T , - . _( r '^ ^ n .` ^' . consider, just putting' i t out there i s ;sufficient, and yet//': X.i A , 1 ` if *i y i.K C'Jly' 7r , ,: 12 '' you considered ^ Yr " ' ,exposure / i/"p B A Y O N N E . N .J .^ 0 7 0 0 1 u-FO n'M J L 2 4 B X : : ..`c .i o r ' r e c t , ' :Mr/,/Pa1 r'k?"", V':;I3`./ *-' , - ' . ', ;;v.;' -J ; ,, - 5 4 ` j ;^ r ( ^ ,' h- >. W.^'' -Y. w ,j . 'j* 1 . ;,r . J '- ,r ^ ' ' -v . V J .Vc rt - ` -k,` `-` i ' ` > J `\ ; tj '^ *. :1^* VMOSGR&VE i; \ Object V'That rs.a mi srepresehtation-;of /./* I",/ Ar- 'f;* si.('/; ,JJ':"-i-v'i'" J / >t ,, ^ .J,,r t ,*" ^ `. "'**' i- ^ ` '"'".-is: s 'J. ,,^r - *4 r tL. >'wKat/the-'iaw; isi/4Your Honor,* Counsel is still/ a n d ' .-/ .v. :'/ 's ' J. " .' 16 ; } - .fiirtherroore,:he is continuing to ask/the saine question; M ^V'- -- . .. [*' V <: '<X" 1,7'fV ' ' 7 ; over /androver [again, fit *s, been, asked ,and -answered* 2./ ,'/ .* `"S',' * /'18 :l ;--rL**' -/ t i v f ? 'T ?: I , - .u,1 , v ' TH j E ^ > CO iv ^ U' R^ T4: ' v" O v^ e- r. ' r' ?u1l e ; d*on, - r (> bo - -f t h , \ counts J -/ rj ' * ' V j " ` jC * ^ * ..V.v-T; '19// ".a .` A ;. Y o u d i d .misstate/the/law. We did/comply- with-the'/./ ^ * /. rr 1 . .* V ''1/ ^ 1 -1 ` /V- * ; , . -. X '1'.': j , \ ^ <`* .' Xv i. \rr < .t?', .j x ,, ''vS.- 'V *`.-*1 *: 1.;2<n : J , law>.Mr . Carr.` 'The excerpt /that'you" have; here' on< this',-Jbbard/p. f i* 1 : 21 /applies t o n e w human health effects that result from studies/ , /- , X / *. " X 4/ - / '.V X ^ v "XX'iTr- \ .. ; I ' X ' ( C . ' .V -'F ' 22 " , -* - ,a - ; on.chemicals/ ^x,-. ,,I ' 23'-/ / * , . . f- . - . lV 'v ' ~ " X' ' x '. * .Q , A n d fthat1s 'i i <\'< ,t <.* - / * v '^ ' % : < . . j X ' ,, ' x,x / -//' " ^x/"-*' ; ' '-/`X ' * r \ 1 . 1 ,...' 1' '` X / > . ->X '^ - " Z i " ^ ' J J. ' t ,`l '-/.-.'l ,< 1 , ..1 ' the',way you view, the law and (that s the : x 'f',-; , ;-: . Z x v x v / x 'x '!'//;vx;v"r>/x.'7' ' j- / '- 24 .. reason that you discussed exposure --^ ,/ / ,. t/\ r'" '/VxVv.'x/-'i '/x'^V;/x/x ./:V/ /-*' . ` / r . U x ` - x . ; v,` , v ' r . ' ; ; x ` - x v - 71-, X ' x , .J ' v;' eV -*X 7 i / .r. - t J `:W\ ^ s-. \ K 'H ` V/' .*>,,'vr *. - , v * . A* 1 1. A V That's the^appi'icsa.tion of that : a '.;withrespect, :tb/ J.'*, ` ' i. .. " i., 1/ -* L r- "1 .. -%l.1**,v*i'\1' , > ** 2 *" If it's in commerce at a l l , that's evidence"of.exposure, if' '* ;'i7 - ;*> - ,V\',v V1!J :v .- -i * s ; 3 . sufficiently dire~health'Effects* new health'..effects..hfcef'*' ;/?<- 1t '` ' '* ^ ^ .R vT- 4 derived from animal studies,,the EPA wants to.Know right then*' .5 V ':;.>`v*,i'>; "V *\( V .*>- . l\ . * ' , ,i M . ,;V 6 t J `7 ` * - .`'.i'JM't.i. ; 7 the furane is wall knotm? \tihy consider it at all? Why d 8 , you consider the levels at a l i * .becausenone of them are new? > " ' v s ' .' ' -w* < "t' * ' 9* So why are you doing t h i s f o r , why did he Write this m e m o ^ -t. * - 7s <1 ' A... ' Mr. -Carr* w e ,held- the meeting because someone1' : v; j "^ i-*-:J ;ii7 >reques ted !i t . Someone said * look * l e t 1s consider- -whetherVorly 1f ^ <. .12, .. fnot.`fthferre-v-mi*g%h/,t.'tbe* tt. ' f f , , .-f- . < h a.nh "^l8a.('e).r . V '*> epffor,rrt-in j g,-r-,e q--u i r e m'e n f t;<.i '. "" ,.,.-'' pS'om7e.^n. - g'%1 - .* - -\fi . -\ f ' > 'i-'V' '7 1 r*'. * * ' ' : .. t- jj . V - . 13, v \i el`se'm`i g h t * ' ... r have'thought/a meet'i*nVg ,is-hould^not 1' ' - J. * . . . . r ` ','* *, " ' *' have , .* j J`\ ^beJ,e*n.* 1h-e^l* d./ , ` *, `O * -c * `^ N* * ' .f I, 1 4 So when it -s requested/ we7hold;ohe. - -h *`W ' /,V * ; -, \ ^ V A',1V/'V; 1 5 Q ' v:All right 'S your view'is that a meeting need hot ^ X.,- )v-jcv 1 6 be held? - - , j . * : - . ^ ; .7**. 1*^ 17 t & :';1, didn't .say that at all'/. Mr*; Carr. , ' ** " ; t. 1u r '' 1r , "A , J R _V 1' * 1T . - - f r, r / rt ,, '+1 1\ ' v h ^ '' t _ ^ JJ 18 '. . Q J . Well, ,why did you'hold th meeting and why did^you .7/^ ' 1 9 consider human exposure if ail. the 'health effects of furane - 20 "-:'-''7V' *:. ' r 2; i >rt>,>* FORM IL "24 REN GAD C O .. B A YO N N E. N .J. . 0 7002 "22 discuss any new ,findings*. *' Nobody gave you any report en /now - 2 3 hPeJalllttVhi ePfffoefcltfso.. 'HNnohbnioRdiyr-'aevivreann ftaallVkoedd- about new.health effctg j*'*. \ v; 1f;/:P `I *'> V;- 2 4 at that meeting, 1 did .`they,.sir? *16 \Vf.V 7 r ^; ']. * -, , r ` ,7 7 1 ' ,J V ` v\ r`' '* ^ ; r, r 72 r . . ` ' Jr 1 r2 't iK iJ3 ,7V' *1 '. \i. i/' \tf}7 1 f ' ' J-JC. A I would' say/in 'ani effort.to'lean over backwards v, . c * v . . . . , 7 - -'/,' -; - . , t V.-k '; `-.`-`., ivi;. . i r, p to make sure we complied with the' law."", ,' " \. t 1 .. ;:v v . i i * 1k. j - * . ' / ;, - V," '-J, . . ; v . _ ;^ ?r ?.;_* Q r Well, what law is it .that, you are coinplying^withr'if; 5 \ "li ' 7; ' , - ' M *-\ ; - ; ,;V only you have to.consider the new;health.effects, what in .the^ :V; l a w t h o n ; ,v V "r',4. , V - 7 : " A ,7 Section v * , 8 (eJ/of /the, Toxic .Substances ,Control 7 V 'V V' - , V > \ I 'c Act i M* ; - -A v > ` ' ->J. .i;'v ! '*' ' . , 'r . ' Q r - -Well,, V' i _ - * w h a tH* * ' *inZi ' that. lawr ,1 r if . ' it^s ' just new human.;/'' V'/ ' 1 . a. , V \ 8 health ieffects/that you .havje'to consider, what information do i9' 1* , > rA * i_ m -f k u, *1 . you'have:.,then? You d o n 't eyen need to have avmeeting. /, ' , r . ' ./.'i.1 - Jir i' - *' ' 10. r. ! . ^.The/law,-.requires ^thati,the EPA.be inforraed when.we . .- ; i( iji*" ' /" .r^';` *' ' jl ,1 . .' -*~i Jit r i '' v . 1;n t i j 1. f : . rf a . i1 1 , I< ' , - ` ` ,, * i^ -" : 11, V ,havei- inforiaatidri which;'reasonably supports ,the conclusion .that ^ '> r ; -V . . . i ' . 'i 12 * } 13 ' 14 a ch" e',m7ii c,Jfai l>* .i'''*' prest e *nt^s ;` za/;sAtviJbf^.*)it<ia...n.. tt-i. a^l 'r>. <i/sk; of i ; nj.ur* y .. --.f`' r * // 'vl Q ,,, Well^now,* thats .not. new health effects,* is it, .sir? '- ;'l;3 ''' ' ;; . They are hot "saying substantial risk that new health, effects _ . 1 1 V j J y- d ^ - t- ^ * v ^ ( *.r . ^ ^7 i t l * ***. ' * m%* a p * ' ^ v J , 1 5 ' are going to. be caused. 1 I-m afraid I 'm a little'confused here< ':';;V* *^' 1 6 * ; Now, .did you'hold, this meeting to .discuss the law because you . <*>' 1 17 f >. JJ < * F, ' ! . ` ,, 1 " * - . r , . -_y\ 1-' say it only applies to new'health effects ,or did you hold the. BAYO N N E. N .J, 0T001 FORM IL 14 B 18'; meeting -*r L'', Vr' :*'V ' * l ._ * sJ * r 'r V \ . ' 1 9 A I'didn't Bay that at all, Mr. Carr. X ;said .that V/;^ . ! S' ',* ; *",jj .. ^ ^; j A ' -' S ; ^ V: . 2 0 ` . the excerpt that you have pulled out of the, policy statement, V ,' ' i r' r S'.1 r*T, ' j. >/,* ;2i I think, .relates,'to new'human .health effects derived from, 22v S' ' V: / - ' -- /J- '1 .''S1 v- , . ' ' r ., ^ ` ' \ , '' ;animal studies > o r .i n ,other .ways *a Iso . \ 1? '. '^ ;V*?.' , * !*i .i 'V.-*>ra '23 ; . . , -,- *'1f1 i , . `Vi J f .. .' '` / ' ' .' . . t i y' rV ;/*<" -t!:\ '1 *` Q Well .then, why consider health effects at)aril?;/'-; '.' ^ ' . V- ;f ,* 7 '/ V/ , r24 ' A /''.fBecause they) are important. 1 - ' t ,- ' i t ij4v* * ^ . r.` . _*, nf - ~ w * ' ( -r r t / `*k *r A - ,, " 'r ' v- ' V:-"'- `r 7 3 r y; J ' ^ .... * 'a[>1 t / N* p, ( ' . yy *1 r 'f J k . . i T 4 ' ,|V ^ ' . ,-4 ' - .V ; **-i b 1Vid / ' VC M , is ' , .< . tf 1* ., i sf .r i * 7 yy ' 1' y . - ' '*** J 1> .. fX * ', * . .^-7. * y^ v-. yv Al' V 1p "* ' r ` * rjp , `*T` . r *L'' . 3 /,, -v f4 L ' A Because the;re; important ^ ^ ;.J/-., v' . ';'a'/- .ir r* , v!- , ( ,' ../.-. .J q v"f And y o u 've always interpreted o this . `, ?;' f ".';\it! *t *;., ' law, to .require';^ f :j f> - . t..V'ir-J. ' L; r A * , V - 1 ,L. - ' v ` V- ' ' 7 ` ' . * '';,^ V* --V'ttV* V'< y yv .v s : y o u :to just talk- about health effects, new. health effects! 4 ^ +\i ' " .' r**Tm * ''. 1 \ *. L , * . t>-J , ' '1 ' * A . i. : '( / A . 1 ;.i t. ; ; 'V<- , /' i > ,, -p J J ^ 'f i r. 't ` > " !> k : r*`> ' ', 1 J* -. * -. `" y v ' ; \ 'i ;f" ^ , V , * ?! - V : r-'V/Ayr ,jj.^y *-y,y<'1 *>y^ '* 1-jjy,. >^ ^ i -1 ' . , '6 ; '; ( ,/;V' ^r`;:'1L'.:.'ii ' ? ( -r\ ` i , t : ; * ^ r j ' -'t v j ` r " , r . j - 1, p - V - MR CARR s , Your;Honor, I am encroaching o n p ;" the - i ; ;* ,:; Vy/ y -^4 1" v: `7 " LV ' 8 ; ; i;Vy'-.'fVpV:,1 .. " V 4 f * V ' * < . , J^ f.yp f . y' P E N G A O C o ; . B A Y O N N E . N .O ., 0 7 0 I ^.FOHM I L 2 4 8 V "Tl ;! 9 ; ' iar ,1 * ' ; - 1r '4p* ', : * ,u " '* ' Court; is^in recees'.for -lunch, ,r 1iV/1 ' W;*-- ' - y '>.. v: /r >yfy y y y fy y < / > 12 .f * 13 : : ;! ;>,(Whereupon .court 'recessed for :lunch after:'which, tiro 1 r 7-\,* * "*4. ' E r i* -' \ j : , ,Jl I 'l .*P - ,`i i-f * \ *1 vl > J . * * r *J , .`ta'1 J' A . J. ' s V * i --*rj i * '? i ; ; , J> .t < *1 j V` '* -p A V ' 1f V > 1 ` J- i / * ., ' N r pj' , J ` r f ' r `n, -L t *t\J 4 . - ^ 2 * " ` i ;** y l\ f ** *v *1"I*** i 14; , A C* ' ! i 115-' Vt'' y Q >^\-^(ife;JARR)y MrV Park, at the,lunch break we wer/:y :, yy y" y y^3 1 y A ' 1 *' y :;; ~ ; y \ y.,-'1yyvy^y'^\'' * y ryyy i yy*1* v y \ y ' 6 1; discussing :your interpretation of 'the regulations r t h e ;,. > j*y lV , r 1 ,> 1 '- Jvl i-'i*. .. I, ,J `i 1 f, .: ` '-i F' f 'L '' n -, '' ' f 'v . ' , p * /s- - ' 17 ' f - 1 : h statement of policy y.y-;v;* ' ' y y v 1- y y/ -y-yi^^y that's'contained in Monsanto Exhibit-880v >y*J \p y > : JV 1 .,r - y^*y, " - -y-yv -y'-'.y^ v ; y ; s ^-'v* - 'y r -V, ? . i 8 ;-: ; and do you have a copy o f ,that exhibit, in front; of "yo / y y v 4 ^ ' - ` ^.. 1 9 ;v . y v: J^ > / ' 20 1 3 ' .y y y y ; \ ; : v ' V ' y y y ^ y y `v : 7 > f > r * y y v y r V- A y ?w o > y i ^dpn'tiyiif,:carr*y* . ,;y y y - ' ,yy " . %.`.'it'tj','*-'*''y,,' ,, :;- 'y^-V'pr'1r' ,` -'v, - , '* ` '*. y ~ / y^ ^, Q Do you have it -- - do you have vthe reet-of Monsanto ?s . * , 21: ' y. . i'.`r j.: j-,;y-^y. v 'dibits?;^.yyy^y^y- ^; ," y, .,vy,^y.yyy*v - . t / -m' y vy *r-`i y \ . j % y y; y " "v V f:* ' V'T ; * .L - 1 . > A < . 1 ? r . " * *-. .* . - i - . ^ \ '2 2 . '< J f "J , y M R M U S G R A V E : We were; told to keep them; Mri -carr'/y '<p ' i 1.: ' * ^. ), V > V2 3 J, 124 * y^ is, the reason w e ,haye'.thern back,-;here. You might take 1--j; 'V- * r- .... a ' ;' ; .. '- s >' , ty ' that up with the Judge or he' clerk If you don't agree.' "' ,.p.ir i 1 ' ' .. a. < ^ .r4 ' V - ;> r ,. w -v - 74 - , . ,; ' ' . `J j- r *' *' L v -Y,-. ^ , s ^ A. * - p fc ** * 1 q (MR. CARR) ; Now, -yesterday / among; other \thirigc, you - * y .y y ^ `V. '' Y 'V. ,y ^ *. ^ ^f-,L Y \ ; and Mr.' Mus grave discussed the contention t h t o u need n o t - . 3 , '-r-e-p-o--rt- a~nything except new;human health effects that .might -b'e' ; J'4 . .caused ; . v ;' . y i' * ' ? .*' 'r *... y y .v;' >* 5' 6. jr 7 . . A'V ;;/By that, ,you meanfchemicals that we.might be?-'v; " Y*Y;;'y; Y ' ( Y Y y Y y -Y **k *" 'j->Y 'v `8 t e s t i n g ? - * ' ' a *; \ \ t 1Y _ . . ; V v Y . * .^YvY> .. ` YY?/:, t Y lrY y p j j H f - ?<\- J : / Y Y . --Y ;. . Y'Y y -'Y .ft Q ..' 'Chemicals that you" might; b e 1producing?' *'Y Y 1 :,r 10 ilv . -- " : ->Y -y '..; -'y y y j A - *",, !YTha.t,'s c;Yo r'r'e,c1t YY:" , j' , -1Y YV'Yt,'Y''Y J YY.' - ' . Y .Y .y ^.N-\VY)-\\.i Yim`Y/*,'>1 , .. Q ., j And I take it from what I .understand- of* your Y YYy; 12 . Y . : " -Y ' 'y `-^'V ` ' *',1 testimony yesterday that the human health" effects .of;-.cancer,', 1. ' Y- ' - '`7 Y ' . ' 1 ,1' v 13 . .1 \ .. '. r' r .*'* ( **' -i . , birth defects, mutagenicities, deaths, serious or- prolonged -; : h; ;Y Y ;V 1 <-, `- Y fy : -Y ' .- ' ' `1 J .. . . \' ^ , S, - - -< r tJ i incapacitation, including the loss of or inability to 'use-a * 1 ' ' ', J ^ ' `- 'r ' '' "* - J '' tS _> is ; normal bodily function with'a consequent relatively serious Y- Vr 16 impairment of ;normal activities, if that is .ascribed- to. dioxin 17 and because those health effects'are known to-be caused .by f *' y Y;.'' ;-, -" -' ^ . y y r t i * 18 ' dioxin/,it; is, Monsanto *s 1position that you; need not reportYY ^ - , ' . -v,'` ,*i 'Y.I1L *- _-I `/ * , * 1. ' ' '' ' - Y V Yl'*v;*Y, 1 9 . that a. chemical that you: are manufacturing; has. dioxin ih:.i%/y `; 20 \ -J rY;r a Y- Y- " " 1 , ,Y- , 'v Y if I understand your position correctly,.i 3 t h a t correct, sir> 21 Y a ` Let me, mak ,sure I 'understandyour ;question V Mr;, 22 t *- + ' 1 '-iV^ , * j. - fcp ' V , f C" arr.-< * *. '*. '* * . '. ^ 1 , ^", - X 1% - * ' ' ,'/ r i * . C .r*4 23 - '' * il'* -, l.;FL>L- 'i. * . i 1 . f' .* r \ y * ;` Q ,r We,,ll, I 'll,1s.t.at'"e; it*';again ii f you d'on't understand 24 Is: .ii+t MMfotnnsQaarn"ift'r'os-*'..sc. pfrov.rs,ti1!t-<i*4Torinri--th-na4t* tyrormu; nnjev eid, noJtj' rtepo.rt ^the'j'IrU y y Y W ' Y " Y Y .. _ 75 _ 'H 1 presence of dioxin in a chemical being manufactured by 2 Monsanto simply because it is known that these injurious 3 health effects can be caused by dioxin in that they are not 4 new health effects, is that Monsanto's position? 5 A It's my interpretation of the law that it would 6 not require reporting -- 7 Q Mr. Park, will you answer my question? 8 A I can only tell you what my interpretation is. I 9 am not a policy maker, Mr. Carr. 10 Q Well, Mr. Park, you are a policy maker when you 11 decide what, in your capacity as the attorney for this 12 committee, what should or should not be reported to the EPA. 13 You are making policy, you are aware of this, aren't you, sir? 14 A I do not so decide. I render legal advice to this 15 committee. 16 Q And the committee, not knowing the law, relies upon 17 your interpretation of the law, isn't that correct, sir? 18 A They probably would rely on my interpretation. 19 Q And you do then determine in your capacity as 20 attorney for that committee, what the law means and the commit 21 tee, they are well-advised, they follow their lawyer's 22 interpretation of the law, don't they, sir? 23 A I do advise them on legal matters. 24 Q And you have interpreted, in behalf of that committe 76 . ;; i >\V, f. * 'r' '"v4.a f *1 Vfc * ^ * *- * ' f 1 ;/ \ , 2 - - 3 ,; \ ' T ' J * . , >v. ' * -v , - * J ',, ! 1' . */T* '1 -i *V > ^ ^ ' - , 'i " \ / ' *" /.-,* > ' J , 1 r '' J^ /. '_-* *; .^t -/i^y.s* ;rt--.,/: *. 5. '* 1 **-,. 11 v v- this policy:; and this law. .to iaean -that;. if a' chemical contains > * '* V fc dioxin, -and if ,the / k-Vy ? CDft^ .'V.T3^** 1 ^ S r 4 v r i/ ' - M,,kr.\npt'irif-ni, -.'* ^ .v `ir 'he1a1 l'*th eff ^ *- a; -a./*i'nrt**^ ", e j c /[ t1 ' i - ' s * 1 o4f .f dioxin are known t 1fc' ,* ". i-` a n- f.t. 4->.|1-,WU`Zl fha fanf--:q ** *- v ' . ^ * . j ' " , . r ~, - , ; . oyth ^ v,-,' / j f- a e r 1V' *. V,>:i , >. . / '4 - I 1'* ' '" r' . Vi' " 1 5 ' r^ A l 1! -Tha*tv.'Vw-ot-ul'd1,be m, interpre<ta't'io>i-n'-o'f;'.-lS;e.c/t*"ion. 8'(e) .i- - \}- -V 1 V \ ' \ * r - =!f J - t, * , r"' - , " ' > ; " ' ., , ` '; ", . , - ; 'm .V\ 6 Q" * .And:it]is that.which has 'guided, that interpretation *y ^ > y ,> 1 -1 1 1 1_, * "4* I, : ' * J *'i , j7 , ^* / -, i t ' ' t/, - ,p r V 7" , ' 1 , 'F , // ' J * ,J ; m r ` t. " \ 1' 7; yours has, guided this c o ntottee`that you act a attorneyj ];y ja f ' V " / `/^v;V-: V> : ,-J /?! V ,1 8 ' jt *1 for j isn ?t -that, 'correct?^ ' V;.\ ; f r^ "* ' ; i*'! ' P9^ ' ';`v / . '' ` `'`Ai v.J' . .' :%">' ; ';.-1 ': ''Y ]' '/ \ f;>' -The ^comraitteehaB considered.other matters -- :-r*-1''-t 10 f v : ' , , ; * ^ .^ l " " `x y ' y \ r Q" -;.'f.Excru:s>e. m -e , Mr.' P.*ark, could y or `ur^.Ta`nswer,^. that question-,i'/- '. i'*vi*rj "please/'sir?,/\.:-* . .' /V a11 . i ' ' - % ' *- l* *- , , ` ' . *'' - IJi ' " " i *' - ,` - i - r . . i t ,, -> i j / . i / // v]/.''` . ' ''y y --i '** T^ - - 'A \ ,v-r'j:i / ] / . ; Q ;0/-'Vr1' - / .That has been; one 'of the guiding factors v: .>/- ' j . -1 V . ' H ave th e y -7h a d ; a n y ' o t h e r la w y e r , s i t t i n g s w it h ; ^ -f ^ : ' 1; i .1^ ' v * * T- ,\./y, ! r j V*:i > yo u a t -/ v *j * 1'1V' ;.-..1',- . .,f' y L . - . >' -j.''V":.; :.r / : 1 r"./riv*.-' 1?V ' ^ *'* , h- ,, > . * , ' 14 , these meetings ;that we have discussed-thus far?/ V . ^ 15 / / " v i < / - ; / r A ^ -Not] that/1 can- recall. ' " v >../ 'O' ;All" right. -Ahd]r--- * ^ ; /. ; ''`-1 ` ' '- , '4 - /-: '. :/ ' #/; , . ''<-/ - '' V-'-.,JL * 1 7 - A / ,But as ,you know we, have ,held meetings; to .consider '' * p ^ *" 11 8 f` 1 V 19" , ,. ^ '< / v , other m t t e r s . :; / r .: - ^v'., y , 1/->`; J>i*.,V*i ; `l 1W, V *,, ; ' Q -/The only.' thing *that you can ydi scussv.Mr jark, 'sure- * ; , ' >20/ -, ; 'i . ji * ',,'22 y ' * / ' / r < / . '\ V those `that you':have ,been ^v ? r k '. ' > 1 connected with * - j 1' 1 1/ - . i and ''_ ' those V are *V " rthe. p h e s t>J's t r . . *-* - - 'v* il f 1 12 3 u 24 ': Q ` ,;Yes./ And Mr. Park, well,'we/.have establishd! /-/n / v, * , V] v , f.^//:;/]/ - r / ' V / ,7 7 - 1 / ' T E N G A D C O .. B A IO N N E . N . J . ' OTOOZ t ; v .- .j' .- .4,ifv^v>;v'tt;,-vjx/fir-C' * ' V' iV- f J . -p ri>.' y** u/ t J' 7' ^ ?'v *'.* v> ' X' M v V y y y y - ' ' x. > 0 ; `x m - thtf - "1X--, .<- ' r-X. v*- % .! M *"'*. ^ v ^r"*.V V * :-,\ 11 ,..* X , r fm. _,yi ^y ^, 11 4, * ?V<kr.^tax:j> cheiical 'content v6f ,vx 1 - \ ' , dixih(h`d ;as yet. been reported tO`the ^ 1 x(yx\-X. ,- , . x y y x ^ x -xx S.-a J-.?/vxt EPA from . *, JV* f ^ 7of on these *jU . * -, . * . -* r .. -- *. r ^* i ^ - -- i i * ` Vj*! '. -!s . ^ V ,, >rs, y- ' corre!cCtt-r- BXi'r4?i f-!-.f `r ' '` L-` - *' ' -i 1 ,: -'r. .*'- i t V ;;V?U , X ' S * 6, r J`. A Q ' ., ' J r,J\ /X X v-r' LVVJ-":; . '"' - 11 .It*1h:i-n'rk : -' .' ' that 1 '. is .'- ' * " . . . . V ' . '- - ' 1 , , , .co'rr^r:e.ct'/. .y '- ,. , ` ' * . . * di oxi*n* / J * V; .'vi ,, 1 yes`.,j ;*,*.,y; ` /` r ' , / *` ;. -, r V;.; / ' ` 'i J*" ' -b- v'.4.'-'.1.-MlJ *lv'.'*A5Nry.f%f'o**' !" 7^ V 'Nov? t *\ if i you direct ,your - 1 ' L^r .^ .7a, tt^ ention, to * the second l i /; , \ i '^ v i*1 .V n y * "> . -V*t'Ti-,-?f> . (7 third page, "rather,' of 'Monsanto1s. Exhibit-. 880#.-.which i s ''the/-ri7' i *V ^''\ "' ! , 4.v. '* . ; !. ' />`J' - r.r'-;" -. , '-'v j. [ . . '>, J \- K rv-*'v.'-N '4f8 * exhibit dealing with the Toxic Substances Control A c t , you PEN G AD: C O ., B * VON N E.'-. N , J;-' 0 7 0 0 2 ' FORM IL 24 B 4' ^v^ - , and Mr;. .Musgrave discussed^the;human health effects# 'but:you "V ^ .'i'' x ' j ' C ' i - [ ^ y ^ s V 1 `iV^Vv-; v\.. .7 .r'v ' 4..' XXX. m"''J j(a%W -rf , idha *t discuss Paragraph No.; 2 ;there under Human Health.;.,^i;i..*v;v ;liy r i l ' X ; Effects, - ry s.uip;*>port4s. any pattern, ofyeffebtsr;or yidenc; which reasonahiy, jt ^ '< -j'r'A;:7;^ ... .. *y , ;1 1a V 1 "*- .. ^ ,,:`i" X the ,conclusion that the ;cheznica1 substance.or mixture- tv1"'V 'c' f;v- f'J 1, 7il';; "'14',; i'i' -, - ' ,*,'<; ,,,(.v'.Vv,' ^ ` j ' ^X lr ..v. , rwf '.. ; v. rf^,J .;t r-;.v''X * ;can,, produ.,c,e ,c-ance'rT-,, m.utVat'iioJn, ^ > 7 v.;';vc i.v-/ ":j'' "v resulting in death; or serious b.irth d\e!f-ectJs. or tox.ic..1effects ' \\ ."\ d ' ' l y & dr ,prolonged" incapacitation, ^ i y i Mk 5-Xv f\ ^ -.-4r'Xji 'Vr 15 Yie * ^ .. You v*. -V V -' , \v : '.'V-i!- '.,*:>./ .^ -, . . , vy- ` * *,, . : .; understandthey are talkingbout.apattern of .'l . 1 ~` r '* ? [ * ' v: effects; ^ tj1' *y %<f^-"i^j!X'if,f :i6: 717 ,189 * , y**,Vi ; - '*'it;,. .\L....'y'X. . f'-F.'1-.'-'>.-X.*-7.;.fv: %^ " ,}j/"V,. \\ 4. .*ijnV*f -'1."r and evidence :that supporta/the. conclusion' that .the. cheinical <' ' .,* ;' '' ' X 7 ^ ' , . >*. _ /.' 4 t';Jv`i `'4'--i'r-v- -i. , J,Jt''.V-f*'. y ' J ' ,"'"j y\ 1 > i. "^ 4 V, v'.' >fl4*''4 -yj ; a can' d6 these things? ; ;- .' -u/ 1 '- . f . ..x ;J * V4L*'r`4<L 1"^\T' \ f ' ,,,j jVV*- *1-^*/..*",^ y^. 1 v.,f. ! *1v `> X-X,|v.-''f'1 ,. `jX 4x' r >.?* ' ,x. 'a /4 4;ichat'Isicorrect. "v r ' -v ' j`l/ 'V y m t / > p ,]?< i 'V u 4 ,x ; ; -A : >V>_*, >v4 ^> ^ Q X'^iBut. it' s your.belief .that again 'this does 'riot apply .' -i, , 20 \i\ "V'n' '; ' ; 21 >.:r- '-r- 22 ' W >; 24. ^ 4 `.r V*.7' sn'; ' 1 J ;.'-4' ; J/ ' -t .;" . _v "x < - t * > to checdcalsimanufactured by'Monsanto t h a t ; m a y c o h t a i n la toxic v -- li.. -- a.g that4tbx*icJT ; ^ -- V'4 l\v y v , *-t ^knd^ 'that ....... .. -1 ; .-a >.- ,'*,--i"X/4,^X4,'"-,;>?4 chemical contains, that' toxic .substance, is that correctf,;siX?-: ' ,r ` '*;lX-'X , V,;' r!J -fJ--,.rjF'->:4/r 4 v ^4r1 : Y J 1i A/ii -1 -1v4^-^ ^<\ j4y*.'**V-'*V1^.j xA*. 'r. That would b e i m y ,interpretatiohtof the v A" ' ' X ; 4 7 8 ' X '*:V:r--v . s; 1 7 xv,- > " 4 '^ - ' V 4/^ ;v - / *. , - ` ~ \ ,v ',: ,v. ,. f l /. 5-*i //-ci -AViti;. 'i. y s'. V/AVx'/*i/ v" ? fvcu'tr*,v%--,v1 - :-.- r. - v- , ,*/>?'*.! `-'S '' ;^'V /;- 4\h v -- .- y ^ , ' ij / */- * ? >' 'v. I- t` ' ; .-2-:: / - . ,:: /,r'' y V l#' 1 Ky y /1'!r;;:tv / *'v y / ^ / y-. f` of Section '&(e)>k / u.`-.: '. '//-/*, '*, \ S /^' , ,,t: ';'v*/.w/ ^ - C c i ;v!;" Q And, tie Para C / at. -tdia bottom of .the r ' ' r '*. /* .*1 ' f-; ' - v ; *J".,J ^V . '. page there ''./v ;3 talksr/t'.,a-Vbso-u.t+ ';/im^AvnM^mr' 4nAj VlaWi-*> .rtf-^Vf>VW4vVrtTMnt'n-f,'a..1;V!>.. Hill*'!rtfl'i X. , /tod it says> y ^-;yr'- r' ' * ,J J L / F " y ,. '-f , ' \ '.\ 4/4 *1*t ` . I 4 I-k** jf - ' ' J * *,1 ` * ` .` .1pV`,1t, ;. by a chemical. substance. or/mixturQ to which .any^ of, the above /^' V,V ' l 'N l6J. r `- adverse / ( t - . | ' |\ i fuv . . ';* ' , ' V '. - ;; effects - -has vbeenM'sbr ibed and which -because ^ '* .of'the , i 'S/h v/. v -rj-V \: ,/ ,-pattern/ =-k extent,4and ...C 'l-;L^ I.;-, 'v ./' - * .u/ ; arapunt of contais^iiatiph^eeric^Uftl^,-'^^*.]/;'/^ /' _ // threatens humans ,with cancor/ birth defects,, mutation, death; * il'.i 'j - i' r ' J5' ,,, '";1- .; 9'^ y /:y y / ^ - i /'' ''V.iy.V,y;y y ' v / r:y \ ' ^ :yy. y \ / '/./'> ;r::-:/;yv '...`'.`ricor serious:br yprolonged incap.acitatibn,,:that' is. part of the r '" *1 > ^ r ;- { j i6> *1> ` -L L ` j/ - y y > - . y .' i.p'o'Jlici-yr_th.e r e !-as-' w' 4e l l.,,./is ''it,'hoti Vsit?i;': \Vi-,::;'^ f - / /v* / ,*. '\J/,^1 ` ' -'`*".'/'/,** ' ii ;/ r 1 1 /~ j * 4, - , / of;;tha poli<^ : f ateiont-;::/ .. \ l % f-V /' !'' l >*V-r,11iH* / -V ^ .i ' J Q >- Now, they are not .discussing new health /effects/from/ 1 2 -v/ . ./-/-s.. . ' !vr>`'v-.') ' : .; . */ ^ ' * `f - ,-' u- . this, ' e ,,*1s nvir o ^ n * m / 4. en ^ t J 'r-.- v al co .*, (f ntam i <* ki na *. tio n , , t . `?'j*-" , ' are.,they, sir? h T^ >,i * / v ?i v / . ,v^ . $-C T ;,, i- V. ;/ / r7 / -A : i4 ; /-*r*i t ./' J ''i-^',r..`\('*>c;,- :v ,i/r'r-'`r;>i,J (?,,., /k " A ;' r-'Sayb -adverse e f f e c t s V i e 1 *t-' / * *V -. ,,.' (".*!f '*` did hold a"meeting; -i J/?'' s .1V.-frvi .-i*^.>1'.'. I --if . * > I * '* ' / y y y; ;f Q,.. Could;you answer that^ question, please1,./&rV Park?:^U-i ': '..yy \ VY-" - s. y , . 16 " *'!KS-r-*' '-/f / -i t '' fO i A* "/Any*of:t i e ,above adverse ef fects.. .- Section C is ohe r that V - .t'1'''.'-,r>1 ; * ,r.A/y /. *-; '?/< .'L ,',`"'f'"y/ r,-.; ,-;rs". **1 v''.-fJ/' r/v''i-" `v j^",/-''**,!>*,>-`lfi;y;"?^'v*, -/,>,V; /u >"J>'"-,>Vn\'.'..*>'ix^-:\ S' i 5J'I,`- '+>*' . '*'v' '"\-r'" /,''-1v-r<''f*/. \t > .1I .,% y 'n.V-i '1m ' 18 ' \ \.QQ ' Could, you 'answer- that,quest ion, please? ,'/;;,/ V/v, 19, / ; -20 v : 1y *%. yy* ' a : :vi `dbh?t knowi r 1,,: ,fS, 1f i' * j l ; '.' ;;f M R ; .,CARRs: Y o u r H o n o r ; ^ ' k'* . 1 -y y would1you direct yth:'e-V-y.1'wiyi/1,t) *Jf't />/*; n e^s sV*.' * ,fij : .V/ yy i^V<VT-r> ?v v PENGAD C O .. BA YO N N E, N .J. \ ` ; / .. 2 1 ' * './>, '`/ : . " 2 2 *. ,'.*'> . -v*1-* t L , .. '; r \ " '. 1 - 23 - ^ " ' r v 2 4 ` ;> ' to ansvier the'question?' --f-. . /' ' y / ^ ` ///, - ' f, ' ],, t ^ J "" -- ` ' ir; ... ' / ; ' . j H 1 ^ ^ , w, , 1 </._ -) f 1 \ COURT'i.' M r / p a r k , ..>answer;the question* ^ -M , i1 ` y - A y/V'X: would/Interpret>C ,as not i-- / / / ''A-yU* -V 1 v ', - .. ,/ ;v, - 7 ' 1 ^ . 1* jj ; t Q Would y o u 'ahsv/er that question/ Hr- Park/ yoU ,c^n sa; -[f- , ^ '' L' " ` * ` : J ^ ./ .'V ''* " s .. . V 'J/ / ^.79m - V i: ^' '- ' '!fJ' `w;`' < f '. ' , V, t J 'N - M'1- , ` W .J V" II r 2, A. - , "V ? f l-;-.. ;i :V*t - , * , i; _* " - 3_ : " '-` 5 ; 6 *7 7' * r / ` 8. 9 10 ,1 1 ;1 2 A lIn my, opinion', no, they are. not necessarily talking^ ' _ \ j "C , < about .- new; health , e f f e ,c t , s in C. v.. `v \ ; - r, ** il-* VvWv',* Ai- '; 'All right, Now, because; they are, talking, about tliei;: ? ' v- . ^ 7 ; ./ ; ' 7' \* r * ' r -\J -:*r ' V T . V hea--lt'hi effects that are -known, ;that have been ascribed; to the .' i`-I partiLccuullaar ./chemical mixture* aren' t ,they, sir? > 1,! -* 1w \ < ,' ' ; , `fc M. . . ^ 3 ' * ' r; ' A _ In an emergency/incident. ; '- I -1 * r, ,** '>r 'r-'" i i*-1^ tr- - k*' t V L l(.Q ' .Whether it's emergehcy or however, it is, they are,; *4 r *- ' ,, r* - \ t ^^ jP! r *i \ %i ' 7 ^ rtalkin,g abou'ti'thvose non'-he*'a*>l*>t/h**` e. f' fects ' t'hat -ic,a-1n"7cio,me fr1*'o>m*5?*'-*. /1 L Ir .. - f . * * - ',, . ,'/,*', **'~T ,- * _ ' t , *-r ^l \ `r **'] ` ^environmental ;contamination with your ^chemical mixture,>aren 't * - ;v.,1'^l , ' "j. r ` ' ' ' 1 r* ^ i*- v. ' \"v, -i f.c' * they,; sir?/;' * ' V.*1 ` 13 ,A .Mr.- Carr, r- CMs an emer rge`nc'y ,., /./ V;" '/ ; ' ` 1 4 . Q ,;'; indeed it i s . 7\ t * h4 r 4 s . ' - '*>- 1 5 A' * .j Yesiv 1* 16 17 18 19 t -20 21. 22 a .24 f Q L And they ara talking, about known health effects;, ` / v D " " ; ^ , - "V;- ', -,,`.> ',- ' ^ ' J ,J f ,. <"v that could occur, *if a tank, of,'2,4,-dichlorophenol spilled in '-v;, ' i,* IT 1 . ' *' i , the environment. They are telling you you've, got to notify ' 1- . 1 r ' r * * "4 -'' ';*'* .'- > r rA 'm 4 , 41 _ ^ ^( us on an emergency basis that your chemical can do that,v. '*'?\ aren't: they, sir? t o" '" : A "jJ :/No', h' o'., ''not .-ajn eme.rgiency bas'is'-i* - Th,i,s- is -an-ot'h*je.r ` - / ,i . ", - , .. , i;v this is'Item C,.'following A and,B of what's attempted to b e . " . , , , t . 'f -! a 1 % r r' ', ** - J > j ^ ^ . rp v : 4* - ; ^^ ^ * fr ` i4 the criteria on which ond might report under-. 8 (e)', 'and this",. ., > ,f ' - ..v* * , fr " -1 J is in addition^ to the others. a -* * l_111 -fi *i ^ r f r i'"- ^ 1 i1 i , * ? 1 ^ , ^ w tt , * -- ` " -*:. ;; V ^, h . "1, ' > i.'V' ,-l ' ' . F w*' BAYONN E , N .J. '07002 - FORM IL. 24 B t .r- \ ;r 7/ 1 ' ,*3 *J 4 . i. " ' * 3 > - T?- /.;.' ^ Q t " 'M ry `P a r i//, didn' t you gust s a y 'that .this applies , - /: ` j- to emergency,incide1exn-i>tss??.'. : . ,* '` f. ' . ** ,1-'. 'V jj-. . V * ;^;V-'-.v-j1-*.'J*3 ` .;- \* ` . j.-'**.< . ;.1-' , VV *> *. j 1 " -r` . `l- J i* J~ A iTeS " '` '' *7 1. - . ' > - ,. ` / ' ` '.' i, j.-. *v * - >i.. *r!trr.-.1;v t i^ j *'4*r'!.1../,fi, -f.* 1 Q And isn't the title of it .emergency incident^?:->; .7 s '\: . ,r ', ',t 4 - a .`That's .what I-:was reading, Mr, Carr;.- ; ; 1 4 1 1 1j / j, , * & * r r- ( r - ', * * + \ r / r' L 1Ks'sSs J~rL ' fi t - . ;.f < *. i . * , . Q " Ana. a r e n 't -they.'telling.you that w h e n o n e o f vyour; fd. . j *- t - 7 ' chemicals that has in. it 'a substance that can cause these - ' f- ..f``t'j i * ` r ' * " 1 ` vr * 8 i ` ' ' f. V- -<, >- '- L' " , Anovm adverse health .effects, vnothing, new about it, that .you- /; h y\j /;rv, ^ have 'got to -notify the EPA. immediately ? "... ./ ;v \ 1 A1 0 -\ j* ' - ,/ ii - -Vr ' :;;, /';Q, l) ' { - ,_yr. J'.yV?ell', 'the. same reporting requireinent applies to],this . : "7. / ' ^ i .r ` j , / ,r- ` . ; \v ` ' ' I s n 't that -what it !s^ saying? ^ ` , y.tV -v * '', V; WV y [ ' **-I. ' ; .V ---v .lv 'V '.ii ; ' ;i3' 1 ; 'i " 1 ~ '.A,1 .,V V7xth \the'qualifications that occur later, yes- ^, j ' , ` . . . " r 1 , -L t- - . ^ ' * *. - ' - 1 r. ` . rV " ' . *.* t ' . ; Q : Now, you don't have to know that there is going to.; . -U v*. f. f' . P E N G A D -C O ., BA YO N N E. N .J. . 'v ` `14 be a hew. health .effect'from this chemical, do you,-sir?" '. ' 'r' i (. T J 5''* " . A . ;i,do not read; C, as requiring *new health'effects. ^ , / v r] ;v ;* . J16"^ V / / ] Q "t They are saying that wheh this 'chemical that*s:;got, ' ijji r ,I ' *11 '/ 1, 1 " tt ' f Jr J 1L L V* ^ \ .17'. for instance \ >if you shipped out .a chemical that would other-: ' ;wise be harmless, and if ^it *s 'spilled i n a community, this ^.? > `V. , . ~f 19 doesn't apply, if- it doesn't have these adverse health;effects( J - J. ,, -'i *thr'*** y^1TVi * 1 1 v ' i t '< ' 'r, '4 rV fJ " J 'j t 1 i' * ^L \ ('** ' Pj * j '^ r '* <1 *1 * -| J ? ] u 2 0 ` .does,it,, sir,; this.chemical?.Thatj-Section,C doesh't apply?-''.` v " ''21'.' , i * .. - - ;- ( -.5 *. -- ,, - j ' c- ; .. * . > A - NoV it would not apply unless' '* k >* V-- 1 '."'-V. " ' , ' " 7 ^ . *j* - ^- V ,] i 22 1- . .. ` -J ' " 23'- ( I' '24'! - fXm J; -i-1j'-j. ''v `j. \ -l, j'-;, ( / -I/ i -,IVQ'r]i.v;^VU.n-leiVs'.'sU';' 'it (haJd';f sfi\om/eri of/ these adverse '.health^' e j e c t s ? 1 -# - 4- > '/ / i- .v .j, A ' Yes;' ; -s. k- * .i ; ' . T '{,, `- 7 'Q;'nAriiiSlftbld^'^U'.th'at tills cheaical spills it doesn't [, - * '* ' "7 J - ' ^ . f` 1r , "j ' 1 ~r I f 'l`~ ' * * . ' * m. ' ', 1r II 1 -i_rv ' ;:jl ,i~ 81 - . . ( vV f- *' a ' .t S 'I >7 '' v>-.t *! '/' . ` T . - ; . * .; *, ^ 'TV*1 ^ j- f i r have these 'serious`health* effects*; and we know that/ - ,, V V j ':, ./ " - .. ' v- \ S' \ \ V<'7 ' 2: 2,4-dichlbrophenol uncontaminatedr;in 'its- pure state, doesn 11^ V *3 *t ?;; 5 6- have these serious health'effects, we. know that', don ;-t,\we, 1^'/ -\ 77, / ; ./ \ / . 'V ^ V - : y 7 7 !7 '1 * ' >>; 7 ; / [ What are,.`these serious health effects that you , ` , are referrrriinnga.too',; thoossee `bacckk-.hheerree7 . ,^ '/ 1 w i ' 'V:/\' ''`r- .MR * C A R R : v Your. Honor, would "you direct the witness '; 7 - that he knows exactly the serious! health- effects we are - . - : 7 - ; . ; . r - /; : */' / v '.v ' -- ' - jy _ y *87 . 'talking about ( 7* *. ;L : * ; ^7 / v. ^ ' 9 r > J. MUSGRAVE": ` Well,* I object ~ Lr W , 'V - v.:"'-' - - 't- ,v - 1 .,- " 'r'v f* `-- jl / :.w 10 \ . / THE COURT: Answer, the* questionV , - . f i ' 1'' L ..- 1 ;^ 7- __ ,7 . _ / .; 11 f: . t J Q , (MR. CARR) ,Xtsays' the above ,adverse effects, Mr, / %r 12 ' Park, you can read, I qarifread; the jury can read, it saysvthe iy.l -, ' , T s. * , i .... ,j ' . " rJ* > ; .k - above adverseJhealth/effectsr Mr. Park, don't play games w i t h "^8. , ,1 V ' r!* 1 * . - '*i j" ! ,- 1, j - L*' P J .' , I 14. ' ` -_ ^ X \ aJ.m ;j_usP.t try' i.n.g,; t` o u` nd_ ers 1t.an' d 'your question ,71Mr i ' isy *i 16. Carr.: 7 *.0 " / Mr.. Park, b e f o r e y o u understand the question; you **.'1.,J1 i;-u ;.; . ;^i.' r,. 1t f -. 7f ; - r 17;,\ ^ have to be'able to understand .what's oh the .plain paper. And!' * V , '7 - ' It 7 y r ;-7. ^''7 '. 1 7 r-,7 V ' , ; ; ... . ' 7 : ; f 18' . the "plain /paper ';sny s th rabove *adverse1,effects f desri 't it,, ia :?! ^1 >.'i L ^ 19 20 ' / ' v ' ; ` ;' ;*"/ jl J ' I4-' s"e'e" that^. >'"' 7 7 7'/ ' " ^ tr / Q, -7/And,/.Mr . Park, would you answer the ' -f 7 ' : question - " 7 ^77 7 7 ^ / - : ` .`^**11I s?*>P\ . ?: tha't;<l 7 \ / A-,P"i * i f . * ^ v f' . A- .El- i / i ' ' t " , -i T / ,3J? i C` ' 21 : asked .you.?/ -, /';./ -"-'.--v..' / ^ / ,; * ; - t 6 . 22/ V ' 23- ,, *C^ 2A.\ 1<i>. a:bsence*' _i_!,'_t_-__ _._;___i_'f__*V_*_,_'_'_1 _1_*'V. ; . V. ' 7 / ' ,Q ;But if this chemical contains dioxin that can cause ,, "7 '7^ * '' -f '*? -* * j t'`l .'?- 1 -'82 -. : '. .- 'V ...+ i1-.1. i. ` *V. -;SV /irf.y*- ' */ i-k"* I ;/-2 / I3 Jf ~-Ay 5; t-l 67 '7 8 ", 9 .10 ' II ' vn '\ - i . r. p , %. J ' - ' fthese adverse Health'"offeets', and it spills in this community, , . '' * r Bl < * -1 ] 'h ^ ' l*- 1 r1,, ^i _ t !,> V * e 'r/ \ r1 a a c* * r* i *N then you do have to notify the EPA even though:;here are. no ' 'Lr'-"> - . - 'r ,/ j ,,'' `- _** ;'-*.JyVi y . f ' - ^v v new health effects ascribed to that chemical, Isn'11 that: > *`7 ' 1- ,, , - ... `r . , - . , .L i ;i%: * 1 ,1 .1 , correct,1sir? 7 ; 7 ',, -1' ; 1,. ` . *' :vv.`. y*..v'V ? / s-x . * 1 V ; , ;/ A " >-M r V Carr, admittedly'if you interpret -- . .*V^ *. Q V'/ Mr; Park,:-- would yo u direct; the witness to -'< * v J `answer the;question? .Lr/ ; '\ ` - i *'` 7/f. ,, ; .. - <,* . ^ - 1 J'L' ; 'V,,* * v ,*V ; - , R,V .L, A Not /necessarily.; -K * -THE 'COURT: Okay, -fine. 1/ 1^ /.^`I ^ ^ U ,, : s * r. ii>, ' 1 ^\ , .r i . * !'* . \' j > y tm - f , J* . J . Q (MR. -CARR) ``Mr. Park,; what 'you are .saying is .is- that f_ 'jJ - f * i' j i f .this chendcal .contains`dioxin that can cause' these serious y\.r-v `health effects; that this, d o e s ,hot apply then,'is that what, >Tr;V-'-"^:>^Cy* fo r m , il ^ ia o T00O ; BAVo NNE. 13 '1 4 .1 5 ' 16, rj 17 you are saying,,sir? /; '-v \?y, ( .y- r;v ` "A y?} i I 1a m "i . ' 1" ^ ' saying theyfact .that it contains * j dioxin *, V might 11 ^ `x ^; >y-p,**.y ( ' i ' ' vT , - ` 1, , ; , . 1 ^ J , ^ '1^ " , - it ^ i \ . ` . . y - y - ' fn "* hot .. be`\a'.,.'fUia/vc't.orr-w.hi'c.-h,',y`w.v.oi*.u',l.dIF have t 'i 1 o rbe. ` c o'!nf s id e r1e d.. ,r.:.'/V*: 'rfi'*-;*.<*f t*';* 'Q;. Oh,y I,agree if; it was a- harmless level,* insigniiicht .; ;. ^ ;' / ` \V I. 1 ' : r .' - ' y ; `- ' '' * 1 - *" ' . 1\ ` . *' ; ', - * . t`" ' J . ` J- level, I agree. -But 4r. -Park,;I didh *tfgive y o u t h a t in t h e / / t i. ** r.> 18- questioh-r-that/1 masked:Vouy ^ I \said, it contains chemicals^ yv* f i -v^ i y v y|v;\ V \ V `*;^ .*_;- , */ . ( 1 9 w h i c h :can -c a u s e a n d b y 'that it? follows /that it !s in levels V v oO ' F a k>P 20 ^yf -A\ y , : ;,r ' that;/ca''n'icy,da`use':*t>-=h-es*&Q|'fad5vt"e*^r.sJrTe'l 1hne'alth'e1fVfec\ts. * .`r *v> y; '"|*' m .V? '`'''" ' Ay' -v. `Then M t m:ig.>h1t`'b;eI'iconsi1d!e>r'-ed'l *:*' for :,i , reporting , i. under' , . rr . v- " , i V . * ^ f / f - i > I f i ' J,! > , ' , 3. . ' I 'F * ' - *>- ' ' l* ` ^ s' 1 ^ It , #, " ' * ** - L . :,, ' I- V' ", 2 2 Section C;. . "*' . '. " - ' 'v,i 23 . ' . '/ 'P J ^ - ' ' - 11 'C`. 'Hpp. *I + -i,.`i - J..''. ,-IV. 'V'.*' i ,\ i .A 1 .*HI I ' i' Q * M'ight be * ", considered. ..Yotur a.r(e,* r'equi;red"to r-ep.o*rt it* 2 4 ; You are not just required to consider it.y -And that's'where 'f - 83 V.t'' '.s->.'\ ' -- V.!;X . ; : *' '! A - t;-A 1f- - *' \ :>' . , .. / ' > i v - /'V, * -,* .' :, i *''*,v'i>V.'Vf* ` ' j'`"' v'V c**'f 1'ii:J- ^',,i 's t ','* - ,>* ,T,. , ,. i- V' i '*i ./ j, * j '* .r.iJ . ' - ' -i.", . . i - *-! Vv ti . ic , 1 your thessis falls down. You are not required simp.l<4Ty"k;. to . r )I v' ' i ,J ' l A V,, ' ^ - . / - .. A ...' v ^ `-V ',r-.--. / /. , . * C J *; . >/. j .>*` 'v*LA3'h. considerc re^rting^ki-ti:'/',You'are/requ.ired.,t6 report:itJr arenit ' ? v* + ' * t i 1 , 'J ' k i' ^ '' "j '-.:* *- r *' ' rt+ ~ ' ^ I. , ' ,, \ i * r - , 1 'V*.,irs'< 1 ' f, ) .I ;you, Mr.; Park? " > - ` V . V n ! '' " ' ^ , v;.r. ' : . r j ,, '..a t ; - , r ._- ' t ' !` . ' -' ` "'iv`- ` ; *- t d, r /`.A ^v K o * .AMr-:;'`rCarry' a A ; ' V -*/ " : ' , /. ` '.V. ,'.Ltt***' -' .. *,, . ,, y / . ', . t `. 1. . ' :V- r,, ' , Q : All right . ;'And your interpretation of this rule , 1 ; * 'h ^J ' . , *. 1 p* i ,", *r 1* V j^ i ` > X' * '* '' t , 1 W n ik ' 1 . ' V- *' , V ri V, ,, /'r Jr 1 * * in this- regard is t h e 1same ^way/ that you have interpreted all?j these other sections, isnVt i'11f sir ? ^ . - v *' V ,r.;y: < V /' 1 - -':8V lr . A :f J i s n 'i/^Btr Carr.;/ '* ;-/ ' " /'> * ' 9;'; > *. q -6;; Then >it *,s somewhat different than you interpreted _ . va V ^ ' ^ v V '.^ . v'J ;;, ^ , ,v/- v - ^ViO ^ these others, you are .using a different "philosophy for this oh 1 'y is i.-y* . 'j V i. >N , - x. j,;-> . _ ;tr- * ,,t v */5` < ` f / k - - ' v"* r ' ,-ii, , J ' . , ` ~l 1 1. k ' t ,r- , . , ' - u- ,"rtor legal -skill and legal' knowledge interpreting the plaih^, f L -V;V /;; 'V"i 1';/*' ; f r ",12 meaningrof ,this 'document,'M r ,,,-Park? ;;; V 1 v V ',J-t- y A i"1r1-pJrV ,J.'V A' *13 ' : ''"-V;. 'A ^ V H o y v M r * Carr- ^ :^ /'<-5t-.1 ' r r`'V*T 1 " V , ' . V . i - - I'Vl- ^'V:'V - -.*. . .i--'j-'/':A -V V 14 . ' Q 'i N o w /;M r . Park, how,:can you avoid agreeing with a i ' - -*'**: C; .is - V, . . *" >> conclusion that this, law - / *; i , requires, you,J or - this policy, -requires. s A * *.' 1 '>'> ' v > ;- t . ' " . I . . - *j =-? ,,-.j ;?*-f*vs*.f ..,-,v+ *\r: i' ^ /- M.>' ^ -,'V,,./.? ,. , .v` t\v.y s.--`V-*':`,.. *t 16* t you to, report ;these/spillages in the. environment of /dioxin *, : `t.- '.i. r " J7 ' , ' -/. i , 4tUn > y ." - - ./ - `v , 4 A m 4 i 4a - ; . XVt 4 -` `A -*>' . . 1 a a 1 . 4 V t n 4 i r 1-,-1 A 4* a a \ 'J ?4Va P E N e * D v C O ,, B ftT O N N t., N . J ., 07,001 18' 1r-r *'S1*`. : , i?; > l>-!V ^ ^ ^r 'S *'''ri becaJ, u1'js-e '(**F*Sec!1IS:iibh'{dr'1iJs,*'a^;:diff' erenJ<t 'ki'n-d^ of Y 'if.V-- jf Vl4' f'- ? " jfi * 'V.t ",'^'rr m\ V ' ,Jv i.s ' Y ' 7 : kj'3f fci,' * -h - < 1 20 , 'froxa'-A .a-snrd>rr>^B.' , A./,r-el'ajtesri:t.or. n1ew/>h.u,marn health- eff^ects that may**-?: 21 ' ` 'llflWfi nninoi 'ft'rtm:fAnfrrtl 'nrrAnf- iifi i, a*K"* # ,/ 22 /* r, 23' .24:.; -health *effects,^adverse; effects on -the, environment- ap .a--.result j ,j`"^ * * `r 'l 1j , '-'`v ; ,of controlled or .uncontrolled studies or patterns - -vC is .-C - V .'* -,f- oV ; - - j"\ ; -r . % \ 7 \-ri w *w ''i . .1'-1 1. ;r,', something different It's entitled emergency, incident of '.A^, ': environmental contamination* It indicates, at least^ to, ray : '-t: own mind, and this may hot be shared by others* but that it tv 1- ' , * 'l i' 1, ^ ( *j r / ` 1^ , should be dealt with a little bit differently , in; the vent., /., there is some s o r t of a catastrophic emergency incident.; r. v Q nil right hg you said human health effects, and this you say is hew. Now human health effects. A A Yes, not previously known to the EPA. kr . V ' , '/ 1 ( MR, MOSGRAVEi I'm sorry, what did you say, sir? ',, * - A-, Hot previously known to the EPA. ,* ^' Q. (MR, CARR) Now, t h a t 's what Section A, human health effects applies to,, new, not previously known, human health' effects, and therefore the dioxin in the tank car need, not be'/ t . reported because there are no new health effects being, J- .) i Y ", "*'v'1' = , _ .. , \i ' ': 'X discovered as far as dioxin.. All the health effects aret known, ,/r '**A . ;v: 'is that.,correct, sir? *.`;/ > v .* t 11* *" V T ' ~ ' f- W ' AV^'.i That would be my interpretation. ,) *i ,, 'V>"" ^ Q All right, And thte'* prtesenMce 'of dioixin ~in t'ha*t\ tavnkm ' - *'A' ' 'A'i'.? c a r .therefore need hot .be reported'to ;the E P A even though/it; . I *7 '` f '* : 7 :' '' '' may b at levels that can injure somebody's health? ` '' ' A That is correct. '} v J* ,, , , *>?-% * y1" . /- 7/ t 0 All right. Arid C is ones that you do haveVto report * 1 K>when you have a spillage, is that correct, sir? C is entitled Emergency0Incidents. - - 85 - r'& , V' ?.. i 'i , -1 `2 3 4 '. Q My question is you do have to report the spillage^ ,,*> "' JJ'*`-' ' f `. ' 1*;,'V 1 < . ; L,' ,. ' - , .^ t H fV * ` ;,.lJ of a tank car that contains dioxin if It spills in Sturgeon 1+ *v then? A / r' - - 1 1 4 1, ` * . -/ i j ,t ' -- | r ,r l ^" ' ** i, * r , r * Im ` ^ t .4 ' ^ *% * , - *. No* not unless it would present a substantial effect 5 Q If it has serious adverse health effects# y o u h a v e ' V. * ' 1 - ' . `j - 'J `Y ' "" . v:'. 6 to report it? . ~t ^ \\ i A If I t would bo considered to be present -- l. / . 8 / _ Q '.No', no, you are saying considered. I'm insisting. 9 10 11 - -12 / 13 14 15 the law requires you ^ t /just to consider it but if it ' contains levels of dioxin that will caus serious health: '* * * ^ f ^ '' ' * " 1^ ^ P- ^ j 'effects, .then you have to report- it /.don't you, sir? . v1 . -'V. } - r w " , v , v - j t - j V s '- .:',, 1 t f ' . ' .j / ` T -j' * '* ' ? '>' pi'* ! . t ' 1' S ^` , l ' f ' i / ' * ' i. ` .A, 1That !s (not the way Inroad 'it,- .Mr. Carr. ' ^ '* i < Jjr ; t *' * * v>'r r ` *-t '-j , , t- r- , ^ ' f' ' Q thought we *just went through that :that you did ' ' Jr V v `V `r 1 ,V '. 1' ) ' :i. 'C , ' ' . ' , * ; - " . . . ` ' read it that w a y , sir/. If "a tank gar spills in Sturgeon and has dioxin ,in I t a t levels'that can be injurious to human : /' 1*:t'7 r` 16 ' 17 ` 18 19 20' 21 ' ' .s 22 .23 24 health,, do you not agree* that this requirementis that'you "l-1. v >-r > 4, \ / shall report; i t ,immediately? : Didn't''.we just get through that . V -i.t aid didn't ;you just agree to it? I? don't know that we did. If you are giving m e ; a s :4- J7 /:7/t.; ^ I i, >;rt-r'i*,.\J*.>ii**ti':\/:r1i'-: a`,,* ^ -f . Wt , hypotheticta,l situation V h ` Y'iv MR. CARR; Your Honor, would you direct him/ because 7 I surely don't have to spend the rest of life re-estab;l'iVs1-h`ing p'*oint\s ` just r' es,t.abli.shed. . He- said -- _-. . M R . MUSGRAVE: Just a minute, just a minute. Mr. - ^^ 1 ' V ^ . * i ;, '/' "V ' .: ' ^ - 86 - . . `. . ` - `,} .. , . .... . ' i?. B A YO N N E, N .J. 0 7 0 0 2 . ,fO RM IL 24 B ;ii. F O R M IL 2 4 B 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 . *5 t 16 O 3 17 o o 2 18 z 19 eo <o 20 o z 21 22 23 24 Carr, you keep changing the question. The policy statement that you are referring to is, first of all, talks about specific effects -- MR. CARRt Your Honor -- THE COURT: Gentlemen, approach the bench. (Whereupon the following discussion was had at the bench between court and counsel and out of the hearing of the jury) THE COURTS You are right, he has recanted. I will allow you to phrase it in terms of an assumption which he has to accept. MR. MUSGRAVEs May I make my objection? I think it's totally improper. Mr. Carr keeps changing the question and the way the question is phrased is very important. The question he just asked. Your Honor, just said health effects. Zt didn't specify the kind talked about in here, and that's what has to be dealt with if that's the kind of question that can be answered. Health effects can be all kinds of health effects, serious or not serious. THE COURTt That's a hairsplitting non-difference. Overruled MR. MUSGRAVEx I beg to differ and I object. (Whereupon the following proceedings were had in the - 87 V '' i 1;l '.2 ,3 / '[ . ` t <\ 5 '] 6\ ,` b S .yL ^ i h ' i. \ rv> y ^ " h e a r in g 1o f : V'1 v .- . ' :v : , w. ' -* > : ,.:!.V V\ '< ,, .V -. . . . . . ''**,*<S i ' ! ; . V. ;>V; / v * / ; / ,/ ' ' i : .v.. \ Q (tm . CAIO l) t l r . P a r k , y o u r a t t o r n e y s u g g e s t s ' i h a C i I '" " \ ,, * . .J" i l jj i|' ;. % - * , 4 - * -I , ^ * \ y* * J ** a V, j-friy VJ" ' . "...l. ' . . ,, - ^ '* i*'. (V "<trm ' '* you may be relying upo>nn.- an `o u tr --that" 1;'did.n.>t sa**y? serious ^ .-,v*&-'i,c'. * health 1 1i effects 714 * f such a'si mcaa'I*Wn.,1ca-.!ea ,, rV>#. < bKfli..rir'ti4`-l*,hn7 "/d*ive,,A' fi1*,efAcn,tfsa#. ,O mmnuftaaftr.3ii; oAnnsa#. t ,1(*'1v'!*^r: -lm-f t - ;v and so forth* :Now# assuming if you would# Mr* .Park# that your \j ' / } " ` -,,v.J , ^ / V,r ^ v _ r - *r' . -/v. chemical in your tank car^containe d i o xinih it that has levels fr ; 7 , of dioxin^that^it .would;,cause- serious health effects a n d . 8, , - '* '.\v&r * f $ vy4;.-vi V a H*V seriously threaten ' *v -* -i'% 1- ,\- " humans ^with cancer # .' ^ ; 1-; i,j * birth, defects #'mutation# `9- I death' or, ^ e f i d u s ^ b r ^ incapacitation#; do you lagree#*. 10 Mr. Park# that you must,'report that to the EPA urider Section C ? .* ' i :1i',r - ,A v -Could X read this? /- .^v ; ] ,tr(':,y , V . ; r*r"*s>SVj ` 12 / '-Q ^ rD O 1you agree#,; Mr ., Park,/that you must report:that to; PENGAD ,C 0 ,, BA YO N N E, N .J .. 07002 . . F O R M A L .. 2ABV 13; ,the;EPA.-under'. Section;'C?v:'';/ ` ^ # ^ 14 ; r.'^V /is-,,1' 16 1 -- .->* ' - J ' . ' ; ' .V-.A -v y ' C' k ' .,: *0,,- , ; A .v As 2_understood .your words, I think t h a t y o u w e r e : Vt ' quoting portions at 'least of 1Section::C, and I think- that .that l. , y"^ ";.:v , r-` might be reportable., [ } * ; ^ J \ :V:/v' - ' ^ u . I?/ .,S\ v , Q ! l ain not asking you if that might b e v 1; aim asking;'/ is. ;i9 .20 '. " r` ' ' \ , `r ' 'i y . " ^ / 1 * , j, ` j . V 5*1.' ,- * ' . ^ ] v , if you know that you must" report'that to/the EPAl /If y o u r ; iy:- y , V t . "/ . ' - . / - " -J" '/ " y y 1/ y`i y ;**v tank car contains chemicalia as I have described it# dioxin as f - fr'. . y`i,v 1 * %: siJ; /''' 1 - /. ', ;v\- A ' `H i * \Z have4described it# sir? * - f%J- .. I. J .^ 1 i- * ?1 ; /A- /JMi`you described it, I think my interpretation would -vv 22'iv' 'k ' ; /'//' 1V.V -S :v"-*-V *'?*/- v -';y : rt' Z *,< ; i stili-be n6,junder 8(e) * /, r '"' ' ' '^v;. ,! :5: ; 23 V . ' . '// ' ; / r,.y; / / f/' /' '**/. r '.V -- - f ;\.r Q ^Z,m;s:oeroryr?w;?'--y. / -V.v '; . . ^, ` .`'*,.v ../>. ,, 24*. 1 * t_ ,. P y S t ' ' - . `r . ... ' r 1 * `f ' * r y ^ - y - f *- \ J - -' . '. v Jv , ,, A As you described it# if you would put A.L i**+f... .'u ;; / .* . " "> irr '; \\ ; > y v v < ... / m tL* 14 \ - * 8S-y ^ ' ,T 1 . i" T *' 5* _ L './ 4. - /**t>J' F O R M 1L O' >1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 - is 3 17 or* o i 18 z lm 19 6 o 20 o W 21 22 23 24 Q Your answer is no under 8(e)? A It appeared to me that you left out part of C, which ' . must be in there, Mr. Carr Q And what part did I leave out, Mr. Park? A May Z read it from the beginning, please? Q Just tell me what part Z left out, you said I left out a part. A And which, and which because of the pattern, extent and amount of the contamination. Q Yes? A Seriously threatens and so forth and so on. Q I'll certainly accept that. A Then Z would say yes. Q Then if it has dioxin in it at such levels which. because of the pattern, extent, and amount of contamination with dioxin, it seriously threatens humans with cancer, birth defects, mutation and so forth, you are obligated to report it then, aren't you, sir? A Yes. Q Now, there are no new health effects listed there, are there, sir? A No. Q Zt refers to the above adverse effects, doesn't it, sir? V - 89 - *" > ''if . 1 A Ves. . -V ' ' -* '2 Q And those'above adverse effects are the ones 1r 3 described in, Paragraph A,-aren't they, sir? 4 A I would sp interpret it. 5 : Q ;Npw,,' you* juat^got through saying, though, that, the 6 ones in Paragraph.A are-new , hi ealth effects?' .7 A . That1 correct. 8 Q But the ones in Paragraph C are not- new health t t, 9 effects,, are.they, sir? . 10 A I would so interpret it. 11 -, Q Now, do you consider, Mr. Park, that you are in 12 somewhat of a dilemma, you said you have to report the 13 spillage of the tank car that has th above health effects, 14 and those are not new health effects, are they,'sir, not a 15 single one is new for dioxin? 16 A I think that's correct. 17 Q There are no new health effects, are there, sir?-. ' t\ i -I 18 A X trhink that's crorrect.,1 '" ^, 1'*P**-* '*.* %, , .4 -Jf l 1, - ` 19 Q And you have to report it if it spills., .on an ' 20 emergency basis? 21 i - r * s A Depending on the amount of contamination and k o fort)] 22 Q , That's right, depending on.all of that in .that^- (v * 23 '. 1 ! - - . V v-]r H ' >* question, you have to report it on an emergency basis, d o n 't.4 24 you, sir? V i/v' -v< `` - P0 1 A Yea| air. 2 Q Because they are not new health effects, they are 3 known health effects, isn't that correct, sir? 4 A Well, because of the amount of contamination. 5 Q Y e s Now, the only difference in the hypothetical 6 1 have given you, sir, is that the tank car spilled in the 7 one instance and the other instance it didn't spill, it was 8 manufactured and it was put out in commerce. Now, that's 9 the only difference I have given you in those two questions. 10 A And that's the difference in this policy statement. 11 Q One policy statement is when it's spilled and the 12 exposure took place in fact, and you have got to do that on 13 an emergency basis. 14 A No, no, the same reporting requirement applies 15 either way, 16 0 Doesn't it say emergency, sir? 17 A No, this is an emergency incident. 18 Q Emergency incidents 19 A But the reporting is the same. 20 Q Well, the reporting is the same but it's an 21 emergency incident, isn't it, sir? 22 A Yes 23 Q Now, sir, Paragraph C doesn't say new health 24 effects, does it, sir? 91 I MR. MUSGRAVE: Object, this has been asked and 2 answered 3 Q (MR. CARR) And Paragraph A doesn't say new health 4 effects, does it, sir? 5 A Paragraph C reads in such a way that I interpret it 6 to -- 7 Q My question is it doesn't say -- 8 A I am trying to answer your question, Mr. Carr. 9 Q -- new health effects. But my question, Mr. Park, 10 is not that. My question is simply it doesn't contain any 11 new health effects, does it, sir? 12 A Paragraph C does not, Paragraph A does, in my opinioi 13 Q Where is the word new in Paragraph A. And if it is 14 there, sir, then why don't you transpose the word new down 15 here because it says the above adverse health. So you should 16 read that then the above adverse new health effects is the 17 way you would read that if your interpretation of the law is 18 the law. You have got to put the word new in here above 19 adverse new health effects, don't you, sir? But you didn't 20 interpret it that way. 21 A You may, Mr. Carr. 1 don't. 22 Q Oh, don't you have to put the word newin there if 23 you are referring to the above health effects, and the above 24 health effects are, according to your interpretation, all new 92 ones? 2 A My new -- 3 MR. MUSGRAVEt I object. He*8 misquoting what he 4 started out with originally where the witness said new 5 health effects, which meant the health effects the EPA 6 didn't have knowledge of. You remember, Mr. Carr, that 7 very well that's what you went through at the very begin 8 ning. 9 Q (MR. CARR) This is fine, I'll accept that, new 10 health effects, ones that EPA didn't have knowledge of. They 11 have got knoweldge of the health effects of dioxin, don't they, 12 sir, whether it's in a tank car or whether it's spilled. They 13 know that dioxin has those health effects, so there is nothing 14 new about this chemical that spilled in the community, is there , 15 sir? 16 A About the health effects of dioxin? 17 Q Right, nothing new there. 18 A Not to my knowledge. 19 Q There is nothing new about the health effects of 20 this dioxin in the tank car when it's manufactured and shipped 21 out and may result in exposure somewhere along the line, and 22 there is nothing new about the health effects that occurs when 23 it does spill out, isn't that correct, sir? 24 A P r o b a b l y s o . V* 93 r I /2 i* 3 '' V f. * I 14 t - " > ' ."^r">'r I' ^| t s ,;Yes Nov;,/Mr> .Park Ji'as a matter of. fact, \ yo/i .know r*'I - - - r - , i j- r\ t * "h.p ^ r . ' ^ . * j ^ d 1 * 'v r. 11 f '~ . ,, T+ r^ ^ * ... , thatt other chemical companies when they* do encounter dioxin' v`, . /'//' - -/. ' /'* in thlr .chemicals, in fact; do report it to^the EP&, you khpw - ' 4 / ' `that//too;.-don't .you, 'sir?-/ ,-v- ; ./ . j :/v-v. / ,5 ; A `-ji d o :not know that. There-may have been an'incident 6 " or two when So m e o n e might have. ` / ' /; y L' L. '- -H * F' > V ' % *-* j "* * ' -* ('V mv' / -. 1''* ';-l "j -- i- 1 ' v ' r*.M ' p * , 'J ; ?,r 7 '/ ''O 1 V-.'Z v. 0- Again, . d o c u m e n t ! got froxn -your ,./<-/, - V.;v / . // />. // / V / ;/ . file last night . / J,, t t` -8 ' or;.from t h e ',Roush files, says s e n d t h i s to the full TSCA / /" 1 1 1 1p ' * f '' n j .` ^ i -, ,v j .\ ^ "Jr" ? /committee, X^assume that's you; ,- / i -*/*'' /, r , \ v- ; J" * ' ' rl* .\ [, v. 1 ^ f ;rV ' tor ` ' ' (Plaintiff *s; Exhibit No. 1306' was .'marked for:/. ^ 'V - 12. . 13 -i 14. ,J, ' identification 'by the'reporter)//,' . rQ \A ' .(MRJ'CARR) Handing y o u ;how/what's been marked ../ *t. -* ' /'.-> *, \j'.*; i j' - Plaintiff.'s Exhibit.1306 ;and ask you to look at that/; if you ^ would./ Direct your attention to ;the/-:*-.wellV ^first qf, ;all, J 1 5 ,do" you recognize this"as' an EPA listing,of substantial riBk ..., 16.,/ f. j ^ r* ,, 17 - - 'r; ;r",.j'; ; . 1 / . .//: v `./:'/%-/ A*.*'- notices received under Section 8(e) o f .the Toxic Substances .y Control Act, starting April, of *77 and'ending/ this ending )\ J 1 .' j " .* '*'*' *.1 18 on September 21, '79. / `/ / / ' ^ :r '<'J,'7 - 1 9 '* J'";. a -' y e s . v *';/>\-j , -- -jr i ' % ` / ;./' *./ / / J//, ' J;; 'Y':v V 20 , ',"J Q /-So this is the listing: for about two years ahd a J,' ' ',/*! r 11-^ IJ, `//'V ' ' _/ ' *-/' A- '* 21 t ! half .under the newly/enacted act that came into effect on . ; >. , " ,/*,/ ' -1/ i ' 'Cl/* 22 ' January, tof '77/ is it hot,'sir? X ' J- .'V.?1 '-. / -.+ , /: (s".rt - *f _ \^' * .* J `4*\ A //It appears to b'e so, yes. 1 -'j-` '(*'1 t,-1 / . > - . , t v . . J'.v '' :Q ;;/ And/i t covers. A ^ *L- ^ ; - n i * J t - 4 j . ; m m i . , '*, t/ ^ the per-.Viiod o.-f'.V,tiiimne - ' V`?.. tsv V.-;V* M V , ;Vi.v 7 w / i - :, . , *V ` M- r`'si[ * v ' *..'i* - ` j * '*. 1 in May, . o f ;f79 "when - -/ ' u r . ;: ./,,i 'n:;vc -v,;-, :: .. 77 V.V-. ,A '* 77 *' 7>*/7i. 7 i' , * - 7 ,f -r , j . * - J * ` ? C .. .* t f- / ^ I '' ' p - ^ r , *1*-^ .. ,, you met-. t o !consider whether :,or'not; the 2 ,4-dichloropheriol . - ,+ ,, i . ' . \ ' 17 ^ v * - - . tv . , . ` ' - ^ ' , f > , ^ ; 1^ -> ,_< **#/-' * // p 7? . ' 3, * lt J , ^ : - 7 , 4 v ; A `5 / \* "A ;/\ ! ' 6 * j V r'% ' '' - 77 ' /' /' ' sho tha u t l d c o b r e r r e p ect! .* ^ Yes ortedto; the. EPA .as having' 7/7.7- 7. ;\7: sir? . T` .-l . . 7 7* ' '7.> .*' r- I forgets the date*. dioxin' con . ' V / : ; - t{ - t r e n t ^i r ^h*t -vv`:/ 1 - >! ,1i`i, i*, *7 ^ ' J .i1 -r** -..`/7 A.,v.'"/ / -V7`7.`77.i--7 - 7^ . v ' *- ;^ri'7 ; -77-V,. ;/v : A 'CARRv/ X*ll offer l306 into evidence, -if V ^-- ' r - . 7 V' ' ' 7 `; 7 1 r.please j ' . . l- '( j , 7 ` v . v ^ 7 * t* ' /-ii . * 7 ' v- j; 7 / 1 ' , . 7 . f ' v* i ' 7 the courtv-.-A 7 , r'-- `.?7V / "v^'*f^7- /7. , " L*.' * J-y ; r r ;' 7 ^ 7: 3 .;; .... j ^ -. ' ` 1 ~r' `7 7^ , ,* . . ' i , ' ' - r; .7 *' ^ , . j7 / / / > 7 ^ ; / - i o ; S G S A t ^ ; K ^ Y o u r ; j o b j o c t ^ ' i t ^ s ^ he^say*' / 1 / 7 (8. and also deals .with all types/pf chemicals; that .have f* , ; - a v. .j .j . J 9 ' - 7_5; ;l no thing/to ,dp with lawsuit, manufactured by other ^ ." J/ * ' /' ^ " 7 7 ./ A ''7 * 7 , .^/ 7 7 7 7 ' m7 '77 _ - 1, _ r ' ' ! / i-v-' A '/ ; 10;. ; 7. compahioB, and it is hearsay, there is/ho<way to /7:yi . t~' '(7 * r 7 - 7 1 ' *>*' ."> 7 ~ - 1 . r, *. ; - v v j ' 7 -ii ' /substa*'-hf J, if atQ7the^information that it pu'r*<po1r1ts to contain* .; : 'y \ i Jm . . / i f * - * ' - / / , - ' 131/*.. * . i; x '- `THE -COURT i, fv /- 7 ' 7 . - * 7 - / : *. 7 7 .. ' VQ (MR7 CARR) Overruled . It *s admitted over objection '.7 ' - . - 1 . 1 . -v ^- , 7-- " 7-v -7` "' .-A " Mr. Park1, directing >your attention' to, ; ; ': iv:: 'V 15 ;7 / ' /// Z/' , ' ;r - . y / / 1'- />'//' /the second page off 1Ae/ document''itself pr the/first page, - 7 7 7 -7 7 ` ^ -/ ' Av'/.r/Vy. ' -'Vv ''* ;/'/'-/^ ``A t7 -/7 ',/' -s : p ^ * 1 * * *' * f * * *" ' / i `- 1 t , J |< ' . * v 7 ' .let's back up. * The first page of this; i t .saysy a. little memo -y ' ':?7 : 7 . 7 y- '/ ^ ' , * - r'-v / A A / ` 7 ^ ' - ' ' 7 7 .7 ; / % . , 'A 7.16/; from /the .desk of W. R. :Corey. It7says send this tq/ffull TSCA ?* fI '7'- ' '7 . 7 ' . . 7 ' 7 - ' ' r -y .7 * , *17-: committee plus George Roush1plus George Levinskas, doesn't it; ' r' , . 7 r* ->,7 7 7 . f '` ' , *'1 , :A 7 . 7 7 1**. - 7 w7 - 7 ' 1 , 7 :7 1 1 r -M ' .1 . ` ' r` ) , (- . 1 I 1 4 if?-}- ' - 1 ^ 3-` '. ; ' 7 ' 1 8 " / ' sir?/.. 7 7 j"/' -v ,* . " -J- ` .7^/ ; ii. o.` ;` 19 A 7;I see that, yes.1 7'. i-7 , . :'!' - v y ` . 7 ^ - 7 : ' 1. 7 ' 207 Q, And presumably' it was sent to the full TSCA cbmmifct< 7 Y 7' ; 7 , `' 7 7 ' , A * 7 ` .` 7 - . V f , - 7 7 - , ' ' - t 7 - ct Si '; -^ ' 1s * , . n .21 >0 -/^Bnt 'itv/sir?.;'J-.7// ; 7 A ' / `/. -'7 '//./ -7 $ ti% `; . 22 7; J/ 7 r / /'./ 7// . 7 7 7 yv /v7'/ / ' ' 1`S'J - 7/ 1 'i ';;vy-/.7 'l;.A l ./^ i i t h a t 's;what ;he! was/ referring t o ,,*I would ^assume'' fe3. ;,T ` ^ ` ':7 v y - y # 7 7 ` ; I /- . 23/7 ^ Q /Ahdvthe third page of Plaintiff's Exhibitil306,7 ; ,^-7 y : '1 .7 7 ; ` '-'i r - 7 . - 7 ' ` * -f !/> !/7 `VA ^'7, 7 7 /. . . /> ;**!<.. . ' 7 ` ' 2 4J .* - the very7firGt entry o n t h a t third page of the document that w F E N GAD CO.-. B A Y O N N E , n ' j . 0 7 0 0 2 " F O R M t L , 2 4 B r J` . "* ' r ` . J , 1, -- \'A*- f'* . y. /**. . - ,-L/ t h A * p" 4 +,<' tr j ' ~t - , 9 5 > 7 - , `- ^ > 1i ' ,-. -. \ I got from your files last night show that the Velsicol 2 Chemical Corporation reporting on a substance dichloro 3 dibenso p-dioxin on September 26 1977, reported, "Occurrence 4 of dioxin in products," didn't it, sir? 5 A I see that* 6 Q Now, it doesn't indicate that they reported a new 7 health effect from dioxin, does it, sir? 8 A It doesn't indicate why they reported that* There 9 may have been some health effects or extremely high concen 10 trations or whatever* 11 Q Oh, extremely high concentrations, does that cause 12 you to report it, because I thought you said you just have to 13 report if there were new health effects? 14 A I have no idea why they reported it. 15 Q Are you changing your testimony, Hr. Park, do you 16 have to report it if it's got extremely high concentrations of 17 dioxin in your product? 18 A I don't know -- 19 Q Are you changing your testimony, Mr. Park? 20 A Not a bit, Mr* Carr* 21 Q Then it couldn't be for that, because they would 22 interpret, of course, the law, the same way* So it wouldn't 23 be that they are reporting it for extremely high levels, so j 24 it must be the other thing* 96 - I MR. MUSGRAVEi Mr. Carr, I object to counsel 2 stating and testifying that this could interpret the lav 3 the same way. There is no evidenae of that, and that is 4 a total assumption and conjecture on counsel*s part. It'n 5 not in evidence and it's an improper statement. And X 6 would request the Court to instruct the jury to disregard 7 it and have it stricken from the record. 8 THE COURTi Overruled. It's proper cross-examination 9 Q (MR. CARR) Is there any indication in that document 10 that you had in your file, Mr. Park, that they were reporting 11 new health effects when they said "Occurrence of dioxin in 12 products?" 13 A There is no indication of why. 14 Q My question, Mr. Park, is simple, is there any IS indication that they are reporting new health effects? 16 A Mo. 17 Q What they do, what it does say is they are reporting 18 the occurrence of dioxin in their products, doesn't it, sir? 19 A That's what this B.N.A. publication. 20 Q And on that same page, there are two reports of 21 chemical spills, aren't there, sir? 22 A I see one spill in misuse. 23 Q Well, one spill is what I note there. There is 24 another notice on that same page that a product contains - 97 1 epichlorhydrin, isn't there, sir? 2 A Yes. 3 Q That's not a new health effect, is it, sir? 4 MR. MUSGRAVE: Which one are you referring to? 5 Q Notice their product contains, on the same page, 6 Entry No. 16, by the Thompson Hayward Chemical Company. 7 That's not a health effect, is it, sir? 8 A I don't know, Mr. Carr. 9 Q Notice that a product contains epichlorhydrin? 10 A It doesn't appear to me. 11 Q It's notice that a product contains toxic substance, 12 isn't it, sir? 13 A That's what it says. 14 Q And Velsicol also reported an environmental 15 contamination on Entry No. 14 -- well, 13 and 1/2 apparently 16 on that page, you see that, sir? 17 A Yes. There are about fifty reports of Velsicol 18 apparently. 19 Q Excuse me, Mr. Park? 20 A I'm sorry. 21 Q You are not really sorry, but we'll pass it for now. 22 My question is there is an environmental contamination report, 23 isn't there, sir, on October 28, 1977? 24 A Yes ' 98 1 Q There is a spill report October 10, 1977, isn't 2 there, sir? 3 A I don't see an October 10 on here, Mr. Carr. 4 Q The second entry on the page. 5 A Yes. We have covered that one. 6 Q Turn to Page No. 1327, if you will, Mr. Park, 7 entry No. 85, Velsicol there is reporting on 2,3,7,8 8 tetrachlorodibenzo, aren't they, sir? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Now, that's not a new toxic substance, is it, sir, 11 not a new health effect. It's an old well-known toxic 12 substance, isn't it, sir? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And right above that Ashland Chemical reported a 15 spill of chemicals, didn't they, sir? 16 A That's what it says. 17 Q Now, and on Page -- mine doesn't have a number 18 apparently, be the page preceding Page 1333, Entry 181, 19 Uniroyal is notifying the EPA of an accidental spill of just 20 twenty to twenty-five pounds of chlorine vented accidentally. 21 MR. MUSGRAVE: This is Entry 181, you say? 22 MR. CARR: 181 -- it must be 183, my copy is poor, 23 183, June 9, of '78. 24 A Y e s , I s e e t h a t t h e r e . 99 I Q And on the next page, we have entered by Dow 2 Chemical Company an entry again concerning TCDD, don't we, sir? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And it's an analysis, not of health effects but it's 5 an analysis of TCDD and other chlorinated dioxins, chlorinated 6 phenols, PBB's and PCB's, an analysis of these compounds in 7 fish samples and river mud, is there not? 8 A Yes, 9 Q Now, that isn't a new health effect, is it, sir? 10 A No. 11 Q And it's a report on a well-known toxic substance, 12 isn't it, sir? 13 A Y e s . 14 MR, MUSGRAVE: What's the number of that one, Mr. Ca] 15 please? 16 MR. CARR: Looks like 209, on Page 1333. 17 MR. MUSGRAVE: Thank you. 18 Q (MR. CARR) And on Page 1336, has no number in the 19 upper right-hand corner, entry 277 Phillips Petroleum reports 20 a spill of Benzene, don't they, sir, in March, of 1979? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And on the next Page 1337, Entry 299 and 300, 23 discusses reports spills of Furadan and Acrylonitrile, 24 isn't that correct? 100 1 A Yes. 2 Q Thirty to thirty-five gallons of the latter 3 substance 4 A Yes. 5 Q Now, Kr. Park, were any of those reports that I 6 referred to dealing with new health effects? 7 A Not to ay knowledge. 8 Q And there are a large number of reports here for 9 health effect studies, aren't there, sir? 10 A Yes. 11 U The law does require the chemical companies to 12 report new health effects, don't they, sir, doesn't it, sir? 13 A Yes, those described in the policy. 14 Q Now, Mr. Park, with relation to your reporting 15 obligations, do I understand that your committee looked at 16 all aspects and tried to comply with the law in its -- or 17 to give it the broadest interpretation possible so as to 18 protect the public from exposure to environmental contaminants? 19 Is that what your committee did? 20 A We tried to interpret the law properly, Mr. Carr. 21 Q And by proper, do you agree that if there is any 22 error in interpreting the law, that the error should be on the 23 side of safety to the public? 24 A Y e s , I t h i n k t h a t ' s s o . - 101 1 '2 , * `l> !rV J " t. 'Q:': 'A n d . w o u l d y o u m a r k t h i s ? ^<3 ^, ' r v , (Whreupon Plaintiff s Exhibit i307 was marked-for5 * i. i.; . 3/ " < ' 4 -\ s; J ,6 ;7 , 8: 9. 10 11 identification by the; reprter as requested.) ` ;;; , Up . "St*i \ f.\(M*R>iA,\'CYARVRv-j /'(:\"t^\Xh-a!fn-ifdr"'yoV<u-t'-"`n ow -w h > a t 1s * been |J' V, marked \ T t. ' \ ' Pllaaiin'n-.MtIu'i-f.ff-fl'ie'es'i (;;Vtr-i.i+'*A1y . ^ y..- ' ' W/ask /van-:'i'f ,,> \ vt :rve>ncrn;ize--',t.hat fA I ,r as some f* *' "1 L":vv r . A -- ' >f. ,l'tYes-1'in*"i - l ' 1 v:f - ' " i , ! V i - . i believe i , * ' '** J so.1 -- `. \` !, ` i. *' ,, ``> w ..* r. *J p . ' v^ ` ." - ; . - / . " V - \ : tr.y-. 1 ,* v - * . V*' - * -'t'.V'V And'this note refers to 1 111 offer this exhibit 'r i, ' * r c* < , \ ^ < into evidence# if" it please.1the Court. ^ '''J^ '*'***'/ \ 1 i ^ ? I t 's attached to an ; / '* ./ ..i , 1 * I'', ii r^.:rrr' ,1 V * 1 < 1' ' -. A t J j l , '* - ' ' J ' . *:; * ' \hJ;V` exhibit 'that,* s ,already in evidence, or was attached to an .- ; * " ,V V ' .^ r "- J^ -, V '- ` ``` *;.t" , ,'! rV * ' exhibit already in evidence,' would be the January- 24/ 1985 ? v 12 ' ^ :v / .V i . f : ; r `t./ k i3 . ' i 4 i; 15 ' V' 1 6 '' 4f* >r 'n\ f f, MR., MDSGRAVEs .Same objection a s b e f o r e , Your Honor#, V ;v. ; '**/..'3^,, / . ' i*-V A j4" *i , ^*V* \ with -regards .to the exhibit, that i t was attached to;;;--,/" V* , **^ . '** > .' -,. . ^ "' J' *' * , "<i -t Z',.1 Y .This involves tetrathal.and has no b e a r i n g o n the^issues, a ^ * *. " V -' ; * . ( * ' j j %*' `^. V ' . . hre in this case. THE COURT :* Okay. .-.-Admitted over objections. v / 18 19 ; 20 ;21 c '22- *.'/`/ /MR.: GRRV And we *d ask leave to pass it to; the/jury ,.. - ;' i, '- , r.. / 1 * , r t J; -, . L; * ; ,, I, , ,i. * r , .' \ 1^ , `'i`,. ;THE CORT: xY e s , you m a y / -/ ; " '- i ';: . ^ 7 J, .... ,. .- > (Whereupon the exhibit'was passed to the !'`i : ; ,' .t ,], '' , " '* 1- v ' V -, *v;'y- v A ',, , . jury.)' i ,Vt '{ f V'' q ' . .(MRi' .06) ;N0Vf,! MTi- Park, the ' ' r ; -' - ' . k , . _11 '* ` .1 iV* ^ attached t o , or. rather .the report 'that i t 's'-attached^tQl "i s ' 23~' 24^. *3 dated January, 2 4 ,/1985>- and it*s not sighed by you, is i t , `sii 7 *A*,- That* s. correct.. ; / ;Z v - 102 - 1 Q It has a place for your signature but this was a 2 memo that you circulated to other members of the committee 3 before you prepared your final report for the file? 4 A That's right. I wanted their comments as to whether 5 I had expressed things correctly or not. 6 Q And it contains in the fifth paragraph of the 7 original draft, quote, it was noted that the spectrum of 8 polychlorinated dibenzo-p-dioxins found in tetrathal is 9 similar to that found in pentachlorophenols, except that it 10 is at a much lower concentration in tetrathal. While the 11 U. S. Environmental Protection Agency is aware of the 12 concentrations of TCDD's present in penta, the manufacture, 13 distribution and use of penta continues to be acceptable. 14 That was in your original draft, wasn't it, sir? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q Now, you got a memo, Exhibit 1307, you got it back 17 from GJL, that would be Mr. Levinskas, would it not? 18 A Dr. Levinskas. 19 Q The toxicologist that you rely upon for information 20 about these things? 21 A One of our toxicologists, yes. 22 Q And he tells you, I believe EPA has or has proposed 23 to limit sales of penta to professional applicators and the 24 uses or uses. If this is b o , then comment that sale of penta - 103 - F O * M IL 24 B M/ 1 1; 'H ^^Vl"jrL^ rV`1*\/.J!^'> '-' ( V ^ V >-t* * ^ i\t.> r ,, - : &, * V ,' U . r '' ' ; r1 jfjr* / ; ;r . Xji p" \ , t* ; " J,v . XV - ir-tj, % tr v X ' , > ,'X r.1!/V1f ' ^ . V ; M 1,111`'' *, '*,./^<T '* X Tr T "ki Jitl*'t*;>;HJr?**!*t'_4rJ'V`,* vkl!>V ; V 'J - - X V ' X 'J 1T < '^ i ' 2\ sr *' ? ' " t , x ; ijrj-^\* : v.v-'jfva , i _r> Ll p<j^ yt ` ~ i* X : ';. v v x .;;; ,x .* -n" `4 " '~ , X .'Now, Dr. Levinskas Is pointing out that w h e n ;you;, . , 't v- ` *. V 4' v t :-; s : x s a y J .r j f r- ', .'V X V V --"'i', V"..X,''X* . , -; ' ' i t ' *sa acceptable;. you. are misleading .the . one `: that T -'^ migh -1'TV X% t 1M '.V`' V J .->S ' *: * J, ,X - \ > < r " -a X 1" v , r t "i ,*<' X ^ '> < 6 >'f 7 X^ . p read :'ifc_.'LV- "* t itt ^ i-sVn>>Vt > e ? v.. ^ ir ' :m L/,`_ .L':'.'J7` l..1r' ' '''/ V -r ' '' A .;XesV^hei,vis^`^ 1. ^ r . -V' v ` *. 'V;. 'y',.*-; "" :X x X ; . lv-> ,, k J v' `' \-V4' *'JiY'( j * v . fLJ '')-v* ^ , rA' MM. |,v >.p Q. So what you sa'y;. you striI<e out the^^rords that: is^.; i- r- v` ! r ' *9X,; A *h U '1 . a .r>i'*/ ; =-:,';v`J v J k I A l l * -<IA ^ ^ . 'm Ii * M A - d a JU M - A *. 4 - v7 ; A J>3 M _ ^ a'n'ii.'waoi ooio :-;io r j.wMrX 1 ,':"x . -ir ^V 12 . Protection Agency, is aware, of the, concentrt ions ;f ' .'r J / Jk ` ' ` . l1 " '1 S I ' '*r'. <- ^ ;>/ `_ ^ V-, 1 ' 'J '` . ' V^,,*-. * .. present,in -penta ,> the manufacture ; distribution.and T C DD ' s ,* 7;-* f' ' ml' VV') t* ` use of />;,Jv t .1- : j j --a ' 13 .penta j- * * 'is - c*o\- '.nAt''i'n-.'uA i" ng ,.1;But 'y `, ` -'a^- V '*' r'i ' .r. ,, d o n 11 t'r',-` Vr 1 to be acceptable# do youV; sir? 'u. sr e,*J. 1t.-hie ; Xv t;*, '"' w.Jroc1r.r,`'`d,, .1s.,, f . c' on-J t-,i> nu/e*'s.,i ! ' x' 'V,*Vx-x;``V k;" v' X^- >XivvX;';V***vJ - -j* . ^ y 1 \ .r ' ,* ' * " v\ ; x / ' ,i 1 ' f ^ :' *-;v" MV v' ;7iM>f * j: .. M .y* *if % ,x r J 1- _ -- 1' '% ^ -, : A x , /(m i s modification was. Dr, Levinskas* , v -, ' - ! . > , ;/\iVCP\ v vx/ a* s , . p . M4 ^ v i. % . *1';..V x lV;v * p. . X X` 7 1J^ r ' . `.-`iVV' ',""J1\ fc?' v. ,*-V.4..Av f - 'JV -,|.-X'^*i 'X" " . - -.i *t - r' r ; t i-s.' ^-t,J f'Jj ' " * ^. \> `" V 1 J' . ' ' r~X-t\, '' "'i "\' V'- ^, Xxe . H Q . Yes ,v it v7as c And what you ;did#,you simply took, out " L. I ' ' '' '' " 'X r . x,-' *.. y i , . - i V ' ' v , , . * r* iV f -i?* x " ' . -r .17 J . the words t h a t . it"s acceptable "to, the :E P A , but '.again - o u did -> ..,;t ^ I 1 ./f .t X8, /'not,put ,in there `wht' " x'iV.V''/ x Dr^^-Lensks 'told you 'that 'there '& r e . v "-'.Xv'.. :X ' .. v;'- ;X*, ^ 'ix ' :i. / ' - 19 ruls tsguiring that penta -be put,, on, or going to.' be rules v t ` x v *~I;t r .' . ,Xx.( X, :,,xxv X- -x -, x ; v r'' .. ' , ,v > J!` . ''2?;V ;s,that penta 'be used only by professiohal "applicators? 'X'/ ''X. ; ' . ! ` 'w a'1 : 4 ` > ' < ' ' 2 f 22.'r , , 'j ' X\> r _. * X1j - : X ^ v ..:; : .r A :j''-Xivhi.s.'-*.was'. _ r - i - * .. i t 'hre,'.not-xne./ X< : X jX" X-f*' V'X .. . x ' ;;; 1 J X _.<v ,t-: * : Dr> y, 'LXe'v>vi*ns'krasX*-'.XmXo'd'i'rfi*catiXo.n,v i,t *s ^ X ' 1'- - , J f - V ; .. ;.x, v. (, - his-worjd*-s , : , r . - . ,-;''i1^ X '-x.i^\'J `x x ^ ^ v ^ ',lSX;X'V'/ ' ,x;'x S 23X. /*'- 1 '' .;Q' ^'Wher1;is h i s w o r d i n g ? f X xJV t 1' 1' XV -, ,'"'-.v24'V A . ,Right- here, Ee scratched it out, continues to b ^ -t -.104 / -* 1 acceptable and put in is continuing. 2 Q Then what he and you accepted that, and then he, 3 too then is giving a half-truth? 4 A No, it's not a half-truth, the sale is continuing, 5 Q And you don't consider that that would mislead 6 someone to make the person reading this believe that EPA 7 thinks that pentachlorophenol is perfectly safe and that it 8 can be used by anybody and everybody and so is tetrathal. 9 You don't think that a person can read that and come to the 10 conclusion that it's okay with EPA? 11 A I think it's fully correct as it's worded. 12 Q Oh, it's fully correct, I am not quarreling with 13 the correctness of it at all, it is fully correct, the penta 14 is continuing to be used. But it's not continuing to be 15 used by the public at large. It's restricted people who are 16 professionally trained in using toxic substances are now the 17 ones that are going to be using it. You know that, too, Mr. 18 Park, sir, because Mr. Levinskas told you that? 19 A He said he thought it might. He said I believe. 20 And so it was changed on that basis. 21 Q But you still didn't tell people that are going to 22 read this memo that only professionals can use that substance 23 because it's toxic. 24 MR. MUSGRAVE: Objection, that's not what the 105 1 document says, Your Honor* Mr* Carr is again intentional] 2 trying to misrepresent the contents of a document, 3 intentionally, and Z object to it, it's totally improper* 4 The document says I believe the EPA has or has proposed. 5 It doesn't say it has or that he knows* 6 ME. CARRi It does say have* 7 MR. MUSGRAVE: It sayB I believe, it doesn't say that 8 he knows. 9 THE COURTS Objection overruled* 10 MR* CARR: But he does say it should be checked* 11 Did somebody check it? 12 A I checked it* I telephoned someone in the agricultui 13 products part of the company, I do not remember who it was rig) 14 now, and they said as far as they knew they were not even aware 15 of a proposal to limit it* 16 Q Well, did you check it then? 17 A Yes, I checked it* 18 Q Well, what you got was they don't know anything 19 about it, is what you got? 20 A No, they said to the best of their knowledge it was 21 continuing to be marketed. 22 Q You were not making penta at that time* You quit 23 making penta back in 1977 and '78? 24 A Years ago. < - 106 1 Q He's not selling it This is 1985 Did you check 2 anybody to determine whether or not this statement was 3 correct or not? 4 A X checked with someone I thought would have more 5 knowledge than Dr Levinskas 6 Q And so you eliminated them the statement that he 7 said was misleading, didn't you? 8 A X sure did 9 Q How, if you checked it and found out that what he 10 said wasn't true, you wouldn't have had to eliminate it, 11 would you, sir? 12 A He tried to -- 13 Q Could you answer that question, Mr. Park? 14 A We probably would have followed his wording in any 15 event 16 Q My question is you wouldn't have had to eliminate it, 17 would you, sir? 18 A Yes. 19 0 X am not asking you probabilities 20 A Yes, X would follow the request of the toxicologist. 21 Q He didn't tell you to eliminate it, he told you it 22 should be checked? 23 A This is his wording, Mr Carr 24 Q X understand that, well indeed X understand it* - 107 " i/ ''A*' t j ^ ' 1' ,'( i i>! ' V. r 'S ' U. 1 J .1N i- , * i , -*i J^< M t f- V , * 1 ">p *, ;./v.. - a \v 'r i I I;" - r' . / y r ." 1AA./lAl* r ig hV,t-* 'n - "<>_j" " '?'* -v :> tt ii 'j.t,-'" Kr **. ' ''* i ^\ ,, *- J '' i ^ 4 4 j4 S . ^ / 2. . Q . /Tho p o in t i * you d id - e lim in a te th e ^ rd in g -a n d yo u i ; 7- C 7 Xi"^ . 3 - J .. f TJ \ ' - 4S *- ' f ' > 1 * ,`'1 ""i' -'J-,V'T 'r, ' i ,' V i r , ' . , , `. ' , ' .^ r - '-- - i ' ; x ' p u t o u t a h a lfr t r u t h ^ d ld n V t yo U r s ir ? < *^ ' i?, *t . j j ' - \ rp 1 -j1 . '"' " * . ^- 4 J i* i r + ` - i-)^ * r v' o, '* \f :*' - i * 1 *u w r '' ' j * ' i > .-; cN di we d id n t * v ;' -, ,T 7 f.1'i'`.l! -v L1-' * / ` ' V ` ' y `~: x . k , ^ **< ., , - v i -p` > 7 -' ` ,j ' t* p< " 11 V v (* - * fci` , r \x~*,i* ' f- f a , . - ; : * i r - jit' , v v- s. '* S'/rO ' " />/" L v s\.; . `0;-'1, . V'-1:*>->i ^. ^.f-u Par k,", V.Ti%h*^v.'i-^-J't*-^"'.o..a.m...;p .j"v vjo>''< a rjb ig u la r ,' *iic e e t 1in g <'-,w he :* n v*youi y-./'A ;. ^* i - ^ r V i *2.r " 1 V-; // ; ' *'*>, '*':;;,Fj' ' ' - p ' i , > r ' ' i ` i . , i. ( ., ,, . , ^ . ,' " , _ ^v , ii iv y 1 ;.CjV v '.6 w e re d is c u s s in g y o u r t e t x a ^ a l - - w o u ld yo u roark th iB ? V \ , 5*V(- - ' j j *_** * ' ' "^'n * ' ,,K Vi" /'' ' *,' y, J ' ' { ` " 7 . ' '*- ' ` `` ` ' ) * t , *- i'1''/; <*r1 * 7e' (W hereupon P l a i n t i f f n E x h ib it 1308 wfts xnarkud fo x : [ i" " ' . * *T -J 1 ' T-* \ * I V * r ,'1rvp'^ j * ^V ^ > * J-* *M ' , > ' 8 ,'i`, L` ,i T ' i d e n t i f i c a t i o n : biy.'.t h ^ ;r e p o r t e r f t o ' ro g u e s te d > ) - ' '/: V,r'l v.C*l'7 ^ :yy; . Q (MR* CAHR) I hand you w h a t 1s now been iaarked o s ;-; V , io j" Piaintiff*a^kkh^lt^l308t>a^.'.asie''you;if you recognize it ,av\-' / '- ** r - ' .s'*',' 4 1 i , ' v , ' ,.*> ' j . , a . ^ ' ' * . I , - '" ' ^y - v. > V 'C , ^ ' * i . _:,j-\-,Jj,-` ' , y. ,>if'iL . -,i:*.,'. ., ' -1-1*' ' , . ' /~ \-'_ v V 11V 1+m *,K - * ,, V i * rt i:2 v \o . " another docuifient from your file that I 'T'?r* ^ ri' night? ; ? j; F< '* -, vi...,`;,iJ7j*LsH,,'>,JFt<*Jv'- '>' - ^',' ., ^ r. 'I- / r;-* ,h r " >.< r -, : ` H j - " ' got from y o u r ;file; last, 'i't 'r - `,i-- >..,i;*.',* s ;, v. 'T',,-v : :v*"v y^1>"1rir\'^^ ( jV ' C ,.< *'irir ^_L ~ V 'k ,, ;; . 7 ' -^ *. - - > ' / " .,* ,i * *J i,'' , J ` A. '' 1 X e s r ^this appears to be; yes> I do, ' rl `-r , J \ ` 'L ; * '* , y "j *, . i'X;v.V ;HV-.V* r',.i ' . " - ' H '' ./J;- ;; . V - v W ' `'.R^^ciftRRsv; i;'wiil offer Eschlbit 1308f Yout Honor. : * ;-V" ^ '- * v* ;* is -; . 1 .s ., ' /' r. ^r ' ^ ,;tj ^ G Q O R T r : `tojeqbidii? ...... .^V' .vva,-n PENGAD COL, BAYONNE,' . N;JL 0 7 0 0 * . F O R m ' IL' ZA 0 .. ,/: '/. 17J; - V -.MR,' MUSGRAVE: Y e s , same objection as Was made -tb, ; ,v - ; ;*';/* - r : ^ rrf j<: r.:7 *. ^ r * f r ^1 1 :i , ri i tt - * * 'i \ " 4\ ' *' r" / * * ' : t,h.ei`"rv'yoy'ther e^xh/i-bk.i.t,1that *st h e 1same 'a,s,,t h'i s*r;r.^Yo`ur. HoVnor>*';, * fft \ . :18 ; \ ' 19 vf . 20 *21 V 1> J ^ ' except for the first beet -Basically it d e a l s ;with* > -` "..o v, ":`:r-?r;r\v v- v f; ' ; - `v-- r.v> 77'.7 :y,.v -- f. , - te1tr,a'^t,hal#,i *,i,"t,`S..1r:s--.-J.i/r''.rVV'el:re'L,vr.an^t*.a''snJ-rd,n>Sim-m /,objection ,that Ivmade with regards i , l 4. f 1> i-'i ' 1 '* ? ` , f r \ * > ' ' y '",.1' ,; r - y , , ' x ate to r r i a lj;- Sa-y'm,-le'S*. ?V:;'v vVNV. J* -rfT a the other memo' ^ _ - . 'V.-' v > ` . V - Va V m {f; YU ' . f . ' y y*/V,?*' t > ; 'f- dated "January 24, 1985, i t 's identical to this., dealing. <t 22/' !:'- _ . ' ` `f"ry 4 Pi- , .,>_ :^ i^j-' ' i "''i ` ' ' _ , -J ` . 'Jr.J"* S i,j','*1 'y',7"r,r`i;>-.t',.`,i'1,,/I-,Ny .i i-.' X,- *" \'23` ' y *1 ,V ~ s ( . - - ' - ` 24 j:' . ' V a - ^ V v W f '.1 . V. vr \\X \ ( 1L , . ?*.. , V V i > * ; y ,/ i ,THE. COURT s .{ it* sl:admitted over objection5?ahdV i .wil1. 'ii* - :* incorporate the,same objectionsV ` V - 108 - L 1 MR. CARRt I*11 ask leave to pass this document to 2 the jury if I may. 3 THE COURT: Yes, you may. 4 (Whereupon the exhibit was passed to the jury.) 5 Q (MR. CARR) Now, Mr. Park, the first page of this 6 Document 1308 is another memo that you received from Mr. C. P. 7 Farley, isn't that correct, sir? 8 A That's correct. 9 Q And who is Mr. C. P. Farley? 10 A He is one of the, in one of the D.E.O. functions, he 11 reports to a director of environmental operations. 12 Q And he was part of your TSCA committee? 13 A Well, he attended that meeting. I believe he 14 accompanied Mr. Papageorge. IS Q And he came there out of I take it out of some 16 concern for the Nair memo? 17 A Well, the Nair memo prompted the meeting. 18 Q And he suggested, did he not, I suggest that the 19 allegations in the Nair memo be specifically refuted, didn't 20 he, sir? 21 A Yes, he was particularly -- 22 Q Now, Mr. Park, Z think you answered my question? 23 A Yes. 24 Q You were concerned about the Nair memo, and he called - 109 - t 1 them allegations, d i d n 1t he/ sir? ( ,, 2 w A Y c e , lie, opposed it/" - ;, / 3 Q ; Now, Mr. Park, if there was some truth in the Hair..- 4 - ' 1 /r ' * ` 'w ^- % - j V ;>J 4 memo., that would mean'that this toxicologist believes that; a ^ - r> * ,t , L' ^1 5 real risk can take place to those that may come in contact ',, * .. ( r'l ' / " / ./ 6 with tetrathal, if you take what h e says as true, isn't that;1 i' 1 *1 -* , p i 7 correct. / 1 8 MR. MUSGRAVE: X object to the questions, having 9 this witness speculate and state conjecture as to the . J` '-/ *1, ' i 10 ii <J \ * state of mind of Df. Hair as to what she believes or 11 doesn't J believe. 4' , * "' 12 THE COURT: Overruled; ~* , 'F -. 1,, , > 1 11 . 13 A 1 .don't think she necessarily felt that/way. ,< . 14 Q (MR. CARR) T h a t 's what her memo, says, though,/ \ V,/ 15 doesn' t it ,;sir? ; She said that a real risk exists and that it ;S ' . i t : - ; * ' " . L^ ^ -J ' - . " . ' 16 ... '-j v,V - " ' ', should be reported to EPA just as other chemical companies ; // 17 v\-- :// ' ,, ,' . .. up to. that time had reported the presence of dioxin in th r. ^^ f_ * * * - v ' 18 chemicals Manufactured /, V- ";,'V ' ' .p -s^ ` - 19 ' -, _ ; h;.Ti./' MR. MUSGRAVE: Obje.c.t to counsel's svtatemen,t \ A- ' / '. 20 characterising the evidence. The document of Dr. Nair' / / 21 >: * " " ` . .'. , '' . . * , '>' .;, *\'. '"t- .speaks for itself. And it's a mischaracterisation of/ / 22 what the document says, it speaks for itself, and *X object 23 to th question in this regard. / '* 24 X- tij THE COURT: Overruled. <r, i * -110- ,* * F O R M IL 2 4 8 >1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 . *5 o*e 16 O u. S 17 o o 2 18 z | 19 CO o<o 20 * 22 23 24 A No. She felt that a hypothetical risk might exist and she suggested that the information might be required to be reported. Q Did she ever write a memo in which she said that the things that she believed there are not true? A Not to my knowledge, it wasn't necessary. Q Was she called to the committee meetings to be allowed to support her position? A No. Other toxicologists were present. Q Did you believe then that she is making allegations that have to be specifically refuted? A No. Q Isn't that what Mr. Farley believed? A He suggested that. 0 And he suggested it because he apparently believed that her allegations that these are allegations that she is making and that they must be refuted? MR. MUSGRAVE: Object to counsel asking questions about what Mr. Farley believed. This is requiring this witness to speculate, conjecture as to the state of mind of others and what they meant by words, that he is not the author of and they are the authors of, and I object to it as an improper question. THE COURT; Overruled. - Ill 1 A As I recall, Mr. Farley was particularly upset 2 because he felt the allegations In the Nalr memo were so wrong. 3 Q And you believe they are allegations as well, don't 4 you, sir? 5 A They were hypothetical casesshe prepared. 6 Q My question is you believe they were allegations 7 as well, don't you, sir? 8 A No. 9 Q Didn't you just use the word, sir, in describing 10 her memo? 11 A I was tracking your question, Mr. Carr. 12 Q Didn't you just use the word allegations in describir, 13 her memo? 14 A I may have. 15 Q Just as Mr. Farley used that word in describing 16 her memo? 17 A I was reading his wording here also, I guess. 18 Q Did you use the word, Mr. Park? 19 A I may have, Mr. Carr. 20 Q I know you did. Why would you say you may have. 21 You surely can remember what you said ten seconds ago. 22 A Okay, I assume Z did. 23 Q You assume you did, Mr. Park? I don't want you to 24 assume you did, Mr. Park. Why would you use that kind of word 112 - 1 when you know you aid it 2 A I guess I used it because I was reading Mr. Farley's 3 memo 4 MR. MUSGRAVE: You just asked him why, Mr. Carr, 5 and you are not letting him finish the answer. Your 6 Honor, may the witness for one time finish the answer. 7 MR. CARR: I am just asking why he would use the 8 word assume when he knows he said it. I didn't ask him 9 why he said it. 10 THE COURT * The answer was not responsive to the 11 question. Your objection is overruled. 12 Q (MR. CARR) Mr. Park, do you believe we are playing 13 some kind of game here? 14 A Of course not, Mr. Carr. 15 M R . MUSGRAVE: Obj ection. 16 THE COURT: Overruled 17 Q (MR. CARR) Did you consider as Mr. Farley 18 apparently considered that Dr. Nair was making statement 19 that somehow or other, or allegations, in that they have to 20 be refuted? 21 MR. MUSGRAVE; My objection to requiring this 22 witness to testify as to why somebody else said something 23 and what was the state of mind of the speaker and will 24 it be a continuing objection. / 113 ' , ,r. , V t ' r * lv - 2* '", 3; / s TEE COURT! "So notedV; " v * - ' .$V*Pv>. ' sv . ;,A -* * ' "r Dr. Nair ,V V ; ; v - :- ,' ' \ ' ; r <--,! : -1 v ' ` 1- r j. f , #. *.,/ - 1 It was n o t m y opinion that the comments,made In/ - 1 /-, F V 1 ' i 1 ; v , v v- * ,, .,: , \ . * V v 7 .!- `;. r V `\ /. . ' A 7 , / , 7 r 1' i forget now whether sheis:.a doctor or notr . :f t, V.- F O R K IV 24 B *- S 4 Nair; DrvNair,- . ... ... , * 1 i * J 'v^ , , 1 4 ,\ 1 >1* t , 1 ,p"j ' / * n ' " r . r J1 . I^ r "J J / 5 `, 1 : V- fL V' ' ' / _ > < " >' ' " :Q ^TeisV/filia1hals: ja':PhD^, -... _ ^'r 4'`''j .. iV - v * . ';i: jy - l**' 'I?. "-S v- f- '' y.A ;- - AndQDr 7: Nairl s',.memo: needed `to h e 1 specif ically ' . .7. . . a 1 ir -1 e- "->; v yi i, *5 4 ' .u .ji-",1.'. : L '. ' 4 ' 7 ^ . * t ^ ' " i . 7 - ' ' ^ ' * y ., \ ;v ,. ' 7/ -ref erred^ to> 1\ did not' feel that way*. The toxicologist and j ' >.-, ; * ^ k\ S 1' ' those *1 ft * } with " i-i ` ` moreV experiehCe J ' ' 11- . - . J' i Inv chemicals -> apparently ,'r .i.t el~ as, . ^ 1>1,^!r-. y -4r** 9 10 \ .r i - i ,-y a [---i -v* i , f ^ ,r ' * ' 1 * *" , j r 1 >, -J ~ i * . "7* , c ; J ' l i k.' f -. - .j , - . ' , - ,, j- 1 . ' (. I did because no o n e ,suggested this .1 might say that X tried ; V- -f.7 ;-- ' . ? ' l,, . . -V t'o` co"nt*alcett Nr; Farley to ,;* _ * y ' . 1 ' see ; - 7i-- f he had - - ; . some specific statements!;. ' 1 , , > > j ; ^; .11 - ' . r 11 " I. ' _ , > f -, , -J -' >V r * * : 7 t' ' ` '? that he v;ished to include/and X was unable to contact hiik;. "7/.1> "V" ti ' > " " , : 1 2 . ' A n d so since no one olse had inade a-similar response . t o m e , ' IJ J1 ^ .... "s . - *r;-n.3, < X went, ahead'with theminutes as you see them infche finkivform* - j T t ' .7'V. ,'*-,' j'. '-f' ; , t ;t j-,v-` * '* ,,A ^ r 'J i , - - * l. , * ' . . j. f f . , ; ,< , 1 1-* * ' i ' ^ V ^ i . '.J ' - " `y i `* 14 ^ Q rweli, what-about calling in Dr. N a i r t o answer,, ,. m. . 1 1 T * 1V 4. 1 5 to support what she:said? ,You got;it /document, from Levinskas. 11V ' - " 16 ' " later after Dr. Nair submitted hersV and he *'took some-issue ' I - I . J -1 ' -t : : > VoLh r> / ,J *' * :7 ' `17 ? ', 1^ , nv *> , j ` '19'' v ' <' ,, 20- ^^-- *r / * '* ' 4 '" 21 4 " -.V l. 7 * r '^ : - 22 % V c ;' 23 -. 1 1v ... ' -2 4 ^ with it app; ar: v l env . . tly/ although h e d i d n ' t c o n t r a d i c t it completely# 7 he 'took- an issue with/it/, he. .said i t 8s ,kind o f :'extreme. -*;pi'd'';':- / ' `; ^ l ' '; v * ' Jr , : -7 youv then recontact D r ..,Nair and' s a y, now this i s .'what Dr. ;V- 77 ,r. ;L k'}*' -;.,,.7v , '!j' ' '<'/, * iv l' , ,r ., fv : ,. ,^S - . .> * Levinskas says;\ Do you s t ill,hold your'belief:that trhero ^ib.`-Vs-;^ -<V*:-1; v ' V ' ' ' / V * -kJi: . -I'.I j << r J <k). J . ; ; . ' '.' -v :- : : .a risk here? ;Did'you,do that,;Mr. Park?'-- -y ;v7v .\-.V ; -i '' v , i, \ ; >, - ; ; ` .7^;- ',^1^ /TSf/ir.;'- &*' 'There 'w a s ;no heed; to ;do`that# Mr.1Carr:"''7:)f>^ 7,% `a- ' *,v, Q My. guestion is did you do that?. " 7 ri'; 1 -/V^V; '*"v. - : 7 ; ,;v' ` 7'7 - .- ' % .-7-r,\ V ;-v' ^ ^ 7 v 7 ' 7, ^ P t *' , vil i No/- I did not. * 1 J * s f k' ' f 1, i <6 ,, t # y - ' .? , w .j r r , * t. * ri H- v -' ll4 \ ,, / X , <3 u . til ' - V ' *+ -/ 7i - t j , *i 3 4, 5 6, :*^ <3 , Now# do you think it's possible'that Drv Nair' could `` , '. *- | , :s. ' , - L! ; ,J V ' r ' , . 1 ' , . r f' *r r * 'ri ' t' , *i/ > V , have; if you had heard her out;, if you" had brought hertq the* *. - V ', : - ^ - ' j .v1 ' : . " r ., . , ' 'ir-VV1/ t , ^ , committee# as you d i d ,Or * Levinskas, or as. you got a memo from; ^ -J . '1 v~ * "r *r ** . ** -* " J^ t\ i ** t i - _ , 1 ** ' I 'f' . h i m r if she ;were tolfrthaV'brir vinskas is saying this and ;/ I ;< '? '-j r* > '-\"~r 4.r* ,v' v *- t`*, *-f - t C .ii '<- i ' > V--.'1 ( -f , - ,i 'tha%'*,t'h-*'ri1s"T*cjommitJt. ' eve'.vi/./Sst, . -ab*.;o,u'*>:ti'- to, dcide not to report ' ^4 i-.t. 1to-,; th. e, EPA# -,do^ t^l&ink^ been able to give you some / \ ',,.. _ ';J*,';j;l- ,; " 1" '.m.(p;; , ^ ^ L- i . t^ ^ 7 Vs 8 '' MH*-MuSGRAVEi .Object, speculation and^ conjecture 9 'THE "COURT: ;Overruled. , .^ ' 10' .A : I had not been a recipient of Dr; Nair's memo .in thee, 11 r* 3 12 13 `first place'*"-v;., v /*. ^ [ ; Jr t. ' ; '* " - 'i > 1, 1 ' * , '' ` ` , ; ` \1 ; Q Mr * Park; 1 you indeed did receive ^ v'yr ^ k ...', 'v'^'Cv^ . ' pJ ' 1 ' i1''1 f '< . - j t , <'K' x a. copy of Dr .-Nair|e 'memo*^, < `\ 'J* . p ` ", ',v *,;)r.. / J ''' \ * \ `t : V * 1 4 , A 'Not in the flist, plac* I received it attached' to IS D r * \ ^ y i n s k a s V ' . ' i n ^ o r a n d ] ^ v ; v ... *T` ' \ i' V'* > ff ^ >!!;i", ^`v'k ;V -,,`.z`.Jl-. ^; ' . i , , .i ', 1 6 ' ; Q ' A day or two days later is not important/ you did 1 Tr "1 ^ `.V 1 7 '\ JJ receive th;m e m o . * 1 8 ` Attached-to ;D r Levinckas1 m e m o . -i, 'ir. ,19 Q , We are talking about whether or not you called pr'^ly 20 21 * 22 23 ; 24; ,Nr ai . f to ^ ;thisrrme e, ting,, l didn't ,talkrabout 1 ' 1 ; ,v- j*..; when , you < r e c e i v e d y^T. ,j t - \ - *'-1 , ` : " 'c T . .r'' ; ; . the memo*;. My question .referred to did you call;-rD'Vr., 'Nai-r;t,o ^ T v: the meeting? *\ A' I did not. ,*-\'' .. ,- j . .' jV*^4>*^.- T\;iv-, `sr?ip''i^,v-->','vT---,*iV1-s1`";V.**\4r.'14*r..Jli.\tiif^v*iV Q Didnybody?" *r- - 115 - 'r '<" " v -3 , 1,,v <t t ., -, L ,'t*" ; ' ` 3: ' ', . ' fc.J -1 ." /' -T.Ik A . '* 1J * * 1 v J' pI -, * .^ ^ 1 i, h ' * .. i. <r\ *r> ^ -. i / v-- h *. * J L - .' ` ^ i ' VJ , J L i* i If, 1 . *' - *' '4. ` . -f l t /;*1t, * V p '- 4 r- \-rs- v t `v V 6 =. . - ' '. 'jA'.v-iVjilfch ( i. **ri*'h, i ' j ' f ho was out.of{town on^this `day and couldn't be present* *. Q \ And you .went; ahead a id' decided ^not^ to notify the / -y-v t*.Cf\> ... ^ p- j ' Aj< '-*,i >- > *, i . , ' :v ; s , <. - ^.'4i ;UI ; ' H j. EPA consistent with what you h ive said and what you have;done r\ .,8 /. M1 in the 11**\t::J "*. past, isn'.t "t'T, :H- "",* that,correc .sir?. .t >7 p r , . J, . } ' -, c ; * \ > , ; (t^ jA \ zy v;1",i ' j Yes .and hp.-V^v v j -.. !v. ;: . V;.` ;:j ': ' . ' ,, -f* . SL , , . ' * _ , J . e .* '*? -V'/' ; V. .c ,> * _ V '' . V' * i:-s ..O;-. io '\, ; MR MUSGRSAAVVEE:? Object, the:question is .yague;- ^ f^ it 12 / v,\ \ te / s . -v 14 ' ' sr / J ' < . ' ' ;V /A .'.`y ' .`' '' ', `7 j - y .* ; --I" ij*'i > THE -COURTT-;- Ov-esri,r-u, led. /^ ^ '^:'' ,-A.'*>.*.,- . " i; t ; / > i `' r / - r; ^ _ v ' 1 /ME* ;;CAKRs,r(/Maai:}\this asT^anTexliiblt/'pl^se. :; J ,\ I ^ ` ii '" ' ^ t' 'j . . ' .v- v '? ' ., \ ? ;{Vihereupon Plaintiff's Exhibit 1309.was marked for \ > * * f -, . p / ' . ' ' ,C ' ' - * 1 . j f\ i ' ' ' n,.i p , . - ,. .. identification .by, tha;reporter as r e q u e s t e d . ) ;1 /{/ y`> . '(.'N-l .-'.-'. B A TO N N E .-N .j; *'07002'' FORM L 24 B ' ' : -15 ' , THE COUR T : . ;is this a good time f o r 'a break? /' 'c ;V'. . ' 4 ",x't- 5 y r ' fc(i J-- J 16' : ^*,,'.74 <^ . - ' VHRw^vCARRr^Yes^V^ ' / s ' .M V ^ '> ,l'r )(`f -1 ' '. -i.V' *si*pi ; 1 '' ) , .. 1 f\<,r^ 'u v r* > (,i>'1 > ' r , `' SI Vr r, ''. : ^ THE COURT : .Ladies' afid gentleinen, /we will^ take^a ;;; - V ,\ -S.v-J. "'18? \ ;. ; short break' at this 'time / ' .The, admonishments ~that 1'have ' Vi^ " V- ' j . ' ' 5 '/tIv '-' v / .*\/'7 ,*/- - ^ y' ."1. .`''' ;- ; ' Av 'Vj ^ 1 9 ,; /' .given'you earlier-will apply to this break,, also. v Courts^ 'I?/ 'V > o ' _r , " ' ' ' ': y , 1 j":..i ^ .' p;'" : ^ `? 0 V *`1 ' ? , v/ill J^ ,i'*"' bo in a ';' " shortrecess. ^p-!J.^ 1 V ''' v pji'.' `V; ' "*' V _ ; 21 :" , '*"1 r h (A: short ;~;V: recess was :* .. taken, at ' r.V' iY". v ;>>.. >; 'this time ;after, which y .vV.;t'i . 22 V- ; ; ;p *v v-'v 'j - V - 1 time ,t h e .following; proceedings ;v >, ./;*' iA r'C*"- \ ; `y y ^ ' r*-. ^ were had .in open'Court, f.J-'V'' ; 2 3 v,- :-y ;j 1 t^ ` .J- in the '* ' '* 'y ^:r' presence;, andjhearing ;;of t h e Jjury.) v ,t ' ;Vt * * .^:;ii-*;- ~ 2 4 : :` ' 7v / ; O' ; (MR. y ' .` t ' . \ CARR),1-;Hr.; Park, at the ; ,recess X had m aifr*k1-e'd/<.'<`; * */ , . i.-.' - % `t- r 1 *.'-rlX G y ? ' .' -f " 1' Y ' Y 'v y . Y l Y r *; H;?;Y ; v ' ; i i 'v ' I 1*:' .-,,-. 't--; Yi, ' ' '< .. 1 , k .` ?.J-'`A y ' YV*,,,1 V.F ' .-V' - ,, \yv Plain"t''i*f**f'"s Exhibit . . .309,f --hS* i--M--l-' ~~sk ."yt-oru- --if y-fo--u --rec-ogrn/is--e *, - :*; *' --F '>- !,*-! .// y-"' : . / . `/'a -;.>i *.* *-2 < that,, 3 ir/; a sha Iso; begjpart1of your file that I'saw~ l a s t , ^ 3 , , night? i t ( a ; # > s * i> v : : / ; 0 .. ?^ \* y/Y 14 '.''Y i Y *' 4 ' ' 5. ' ;6 '". A ^ -' `- " 'C 1 .. Yes, this would'be th note from Mr,Jcondray, >r t f ' " i ' ,, ' r' ' ' m' ' im ; Y ^ v. b., v;';,''\ - * ' r Y ,. ` r . J / 'Y ", * / , tr ''*Vi'-**> MR. CARR: I'll;offer 1309 into evidence at. this' * % fc. *> 1 . ! *' * 1< p' r . f,- ' V i 11 , ' jr * (' ' * < 1, '1 - , *' U ,, ' .J time, if i t please the-court , - ' " . i . f,1 '.i t` * 1 >i|', t ." ' : '' L 1 .T *% ,'"THE: COURT Any ^objection? / ".'/ t J *h '' . ' ` Jr l*jt- L . H . V ' > % i Y ` 1, , ' > 'r j !\ ; . - 8 r .!`J* ~' 9 L ,y - , V1 0 MR, MUSGRAVE : 2,4-dichlorophanol, Your Honor/, same ' obj`ection,' it's irrelevant and 'imma^t'e^r'iVal'/.t'o t.he' i,ssu`es,J. ^ " 1 '' k - ^*r ' j,V ''' ", ^ ^' t j _J ' j' " , , ^ ; vi - ' Aj . ' At * . , V t " ' / 1 _ , 'j * J~: ' 1 ``,riri .this, lawsuits y.* \Y'<*(*;\-v:; 11 ,J1 't 12 13 , 14 t'" ' -'* * ' r I.v[THE .COURT :'t Admi tted" over -ob jecth/.T- ` ' [ /- //y- , -cV, _ V V;_; - ?. V ^ <; . V V 1 >V'i * J\ / 'I Q '.-;'V(MR CARR}' And who ;is Mr.: Condray?' *j} YV *' ' ;*/ ' " s v - y J': Y A He is a member'of what 's called the Environmental,/ .i . , . ( ! - _ ,, - . ' ^ )k Policy S t a f f i n which there 're several individuals who,; i, y . -r 'IS ' have .titles, relating to the Federal Environmental Lava.' Y vY <16: 17 i \ . Y.1 . 4 MR.-CARR: 1o., v - !.; And, Your Honor, I'd ask leave to pass;/ ' ~t ,^"rj. , .;* i;> u ',- *-.' '> y /. .-: . t /. , ,. ' . ( l , -t i ' ./ j . this exhibit,to the;jury; 1.." ` 1 8 \ : ^' .r :THEE 'COUURRTT:: .;Yeess,, yoouu_.ma&yy."; - _ .- . .: *; /j i->,* **y "^ \ \ y -.'* '1 "'- k. * 1 " 1 : y ;* - - * * i. - ^ b * ,'Y-: i'", ' l? * 20 ` 1 ' A ,,' And.,M r . Condray deftls ;hs-`i Y*f ^ f t '1 J , j 1 , *> Substances ^Control A c t . y . primarily e1>\ ^1- , YV V , with h^ r ' :> th ;Toxic .Y \ ^ ^*! ^ ^ *v' " *' 1 > ' Vi1I yyY .,1V V* * V-\ ";<'V u,r ' 21>.: 1 ' (Whereupon the exhibit * * rv_Y ', r'Y : ' vac passed v .. to , th^ juryY)- 'Y "Y; " * ' ' vYrr-*.-v..<fs-c' *22 ; Q (MR\CARR) /`.Now, he sent back' your proposed;merhbY .vyY" 2 3 j with a prtn o f .it .circled, that prt being, quotes v I ii v. 2 4 Y particulariy -when further diluted by customer^:', operations, *^. i 1 , / > .. *\ . 1L' y . i 4 ''*> - i a j1 -, ,.Y'Y '.>v;;- ' '.. * -- 117 rY < ; ' 'Y'-'*'- : ` \ BAYO N NE.' N .J. OTOO FORM ,IL '24 B 1 and being part of a sentence that reads it was concluded that 2 the extremely low levels of TCDD found in dichlorophenol, 3 particularly when further diluted by customers' operations, 4 would be unlikely to cause any health or environmental hazard 5 Isn't that correct, sir? 6 A That's correct. 7 Q And what he said was, I didn't hear this. Is this 8 a fact, didn't he, sir? 9 A That's right. He asked the question. 10 Q Now, that would indicate that he was not aware of II the fact that these low levels of TCDD would be not hazardous 12 when they are further diluted by customers' operations, when 13 he used the phrase particularly when further diluted by 14 customers' operations. 15 MR MUSGRAVE: I object. He didn't use the phrase. 16 This is not Mr. Condray's phrase, this is Park's phrase. 17 Q (MR. CARR) I'm sorry. When he outlined that 18 phrase used by you -- Mr. Musgrave is correct. Isn't that 19 correct, sir? 20 A I would construe his note to mean why not just 21 dilute that part. That the sentence would be correct without 22 it. 23 MR. MUSGRAVE: May my objection continue to run, 24 Your Honor, to counsel questioning with regard to this 118 r 'J i J ^yiy. U t ' \ * r tfj p'-t. ' nf * "^ 1 document. .This witness', about ,what Mr Cohdray-meant *yr 2. `r. ' L.*'-.y"t'`'`-`-'-rV,'J-' _.- 'T "," 1.-.`K ' ,r * ' \ '1 -f** .r'' ; ' ;, "i*' or didhft mean* or' -r 'well,, I'll':j u s t , object ;on an -r \ ^ . -V ^r \- '' , . ^ ` `j . \ . f y ' . ; ' i t- 3 individual basis, t \ ` ' y.\ ,- ' ' - . " *- ; . . - ,* .y , k. '' t, 4' " \ THE COURT* I'll take; it a a a c o n t i n i n g objection. . 5 , . MR. ,MUSGRAVE:/. Speculation'and conjecture'about the V - j !. r -Vj '* \'->i? / ? : , : ' y . y y ; - `\y . y 6 ` .v state ..of mind of M r / C o n d r a y as to w h a t jhe. heard or didn't; T .hear*or'what hevfeiieved or ^didn't believe as part of .the . 8 . V - evidence^ by this-oomment i that would b e t h e nature of',my 9 . objec.tibn/;it.V70uld. be overruled. then*.{ahd would be a .y 10 " ;. -continuing objection^ *-.(y ',,y . 'r *, y y, > ' $ il * . r; THE *COURT :y. ifc'.s .overruled and it VVi-i.-.. will be svcontinuing 12- * - ' ' ' ' , y ' - - . y y v r ,` y V - - ; yy : - v' - - J.V `'m r ; ,MUSGRVE: Thank you;.: t 'yt' * i ^ y ^yy-^ - P*y- if* V4**-[* **'- ' *1-/ y ` ^ *y*'t i>4 13 * v, 14 ; ' .1 , . '.THE COURT* y Y o u fLre!.welcome. ,1i ' r. i, Q : y r|MR.i*1CARR) . Mr;- Park, he'a questioning whetheryor // 15 not what .you are -saying in this .memo is;correct, isn't h e / sir -f v H; 16 h e 1s questioning whether or not that's, factual, isn't he, sir? 17 , -, yA , - ,. , - > -, . . , iv 'i' He's questioning whether or -not this v;as spoken/ was 18 f ' : 'said at 'theimeeting.' .1y- - ,'y ' /' - s.J - r , - J. ' v ' y t *. .,v '/ > r ^ 1-..( '1 'I'-^ 1 ,L* : ^ *'K` 1 9 : Q- -.-He's questioning0whether or 'not it was spoken, he,1a 20 , c not challenging ^whether prvnot it was'.a-fact? . , i : ^':} y 21 : ' 1 <, ' -`.y 1 ' - ' r '' -- ' + ` -1 . y i l ' *' , . 1 r ` . - n * -i ** : A' > Hisywords are., I didn't hear.y */-?> 1 t yV-*''1 .i'-i'vyv if f V x j T 'a ^ 1.ty 22 23 (l / * *t 2 4 . ' ' `s f, ' y- 1-'y. ' ^ - &, t v " ' Q - " Excuse me, could you answer that'question,-Mr* Park? y ' . i - ,..?<* i4'. - ' y V*.. vS;V - 'k *' 'l`* . v .'A T(ha.t',s'corrn,e,c*ty,. -r y- i ; .. /j * -c 1 ^ iJ t < *. Q'1"*J` -SyVi-,r-?,y,rv,.'vi-t* ;'y1j.)>;).1.-y ' j yj i<i:* t - y " 1;' y - y ; * . f - , - " - : y <,4y ^ v y v y ' - . \ 'j f*' r^. -/ v,, * v, y*,j >! s-, ''f. 1ti',,V'-- 'F '_i>f"i>-4*',.r,,`*'V; ` ' 4/ \*F Ji 'i '1i-. f , .V t ; fcv - t 1 .< , - V 2, : V -v That* s correct;/ \ - 1/ ;-'/ t-- . ' />r / . - - V- /' ; * [> ' >*' ** v , , :'K> t;` Q /.tod when He used the words then is t h i s a fact,. ^ . - / >- *> /v>'~ / / >L -- " s + // 7 *ii'1 .1 1-./?* - ' (3 y.he i s .not -referring to t h e d i l u t i o n b y customers'^ operations 4 /rv "h f *1 i 'j ^ i r . 4-r J- //-/t , 4;. >;/ :'he's just,sreferring to whether or _not he heard, it? Is that 'Mv : ? iir. i 1 -L J r ' '`J ^ ''r11' ' '. ` ` 1 7< ; \ 1-' 5 y .what you*re-vsaying, Mr>P^rk?. " . : ^ ' ' ,, .T,. ~, ^ Y "* !, - V .f,6'^; j ^ > 1( 4 -V' ' ' : /'/'./ V'i-' '> \ r f,,, 1 'i\ f - - } ) , > ..* ; I Ir , , f ( J .* A; I don't* ^v know; '*; / j1v*Ir;;-w.vo-.u'l d .* construe his ,-:> words -- to me '*, an: -` S-*.*7;it,',*!*---!Jf V'1 lit* Q /^Mr 1Parky would you answer,the question that Imasked /'y'1 ' 8 `> you because ftjust/a -secondl ago 'you said t h a t a l i he^s saying *J 1/ rj" ' , > '',/ -/ i /tj ./^^is/that-he/divd n rt./h it at the meeting<,\:o -;:'.> *;r ->f 1 ^-!,f //m o */ * v /' \ m A "' V / .. 11/ ' [ r`-: >, a ..'v y e s y / [ -V.? ^" .`v ' :! /' i ./"/'/'* ; /j f, ^ ^ \ <>>3-7--* V ^ '//I ~ *r* J " J """ t Ji " j , '' m M *. * ' * ," 4 '1 f * rt Q //And- now whht he is .saying. i s , .is this/aMact?. /"V- // i- ' r * *4- > 1 i. ^ M i : y ; , A \ 'That is further diluted' by customersf;operations; v . j ~\ * / :13 * YV L' ' \ ' - /*J /* '',// M ;/ `s, > >>'*' r/>,,``>' **'* /*;/' : that's' what I .would assume .his question i s / ,>(,> f y / ;> ,. `7 ' '* \tv '^/./'.. /> v ` h \ ^ ,*/ '.V/ 1 *.^ ,; `/ 14.* Q Arid did ypu rGspond that it was a fact,, that it's. r> * *j r n| BAYONNE. N .J. 07001. ' FO R M 1 L *4 B > \.,1v is J l1 1 'i \ f1- r ..* . ' . 115' . . -- . ' ^ - -` . not hazairr1d,, Jofu,uss, when it's particularly when, diluted by; customers1; ,,;tv 'j / 16 r , " / 1p * t / / K- \/* M operations? J" : -r > t / ~ " - J ' =>. . - / 'v 4/ ' / ; '> ' .-.v v. -> >;> M /.;' 17;/' 7 M ,t' m' * i - A/ - I/don't recall responding to him* M believe l can// V-V/'V// *r -18 , recall checkingv *X think it would have been with the E>E0;here' --^ :/ . ' 1 >* / > . w.v";. > , ' .. /; ; 1 19 -'.about t h i s 7 l v / : ' / / - ' ,/->-' ; > i' o1(, .J`;` j '} 20 \r 2 r '' ' Lr '' M '-/ r ; :: 1 :. /Q. ..''And'when, did you 'check about that, r-'---;>F', '1Vi'-/ '*//.y.'',/'*r*'** '::/'>j:*.-' '.\^-* ' 'v- /v';,1. : t. M r .! fi . Park? .' ,' -/'* > '.^/>/ r.^?` 1 v>.1--.*.'- A. This;-would/have ;heen ;after`;receiving his m'emoVi / `'/.*/' 22'" .'-r " .. / '>/" ' E' V/ '-J'; ' . k' >4 .'-'S'y' -.//>/' ^ .1 , 1 ^ i^ ri t ^^ ^ >4*|. . Q -Arid, do/you /remember; checking on that,.do you;>sir?/ ",M >>23 '', -i v- * /-``tiiink Ii'can. <p >; ,4 4s-1w*. r- : / 24 V' Mcm> ..i,, i- 4 -Do/ you remember 1-+yt checking -1 , : on/it?:. . 'A,'* ^ >,.1/ r , v r v v.j.. A'""*--*' / /^<'*`r. i r' ^b1Ji,'*1*-s***,*'o'p7T- r*---**'1-*2 0 ',V" ' r (. , ' 1. *( s'i?/ ` i>./'/ /'/>/ ^ " .; '.;1 ;> / ' 4 ' HI'* :*/* r , .X >' i. A Not vividly, n o ti I j^o/not* T . ' 4 '//. ; 1 , i. ** * * 1 < * l - U 4* ' Z ' * ,, . .: : *' v. '' .*/ V ; f1 2 Q ' '\ .Well, you said'not vividly, . * * ' 1 , i , . *l * , r ' v 11 . I didn *t , ft. 1 . even ask fpr* a , " i ' l ' 't- , ''*1' f : / ' .Z' i-s- ' * v ' ' v, : 3 , vivid. . Just dp y o u ;remember checking on, it, sir? : 1' , 4 * ,,5 ' ; 6' _ A ' i think i can/faintly remember doing that* r \ ' 'l v Q Now,, you think you can faintly remember it. `-Now, , . ' 1- '" r" f^ i .* - l .' ^ 1 ** ^ f* ^ } ; Hr. Park, this is. something that took place four years agoV/y* J r ,. J i. . and a day/or two ago you couldn't .remember, on Monday * what l, \8 "9 ,' ' \ you * . ' f ' : 'p - ` ; 'n said .on .Friday? " r \ - f r ' rJ I ' d ' ^ r * r '* - * 1r , 4i , ' *-L' ' ' H \l *' - ,,A'' iThat's right. -v j `. . ^ r - : : * Z ' ;// * *i * [ . t' * ' , *" .J * r / -v / ^ / ', - ' \' . t ' ^ T ; . ' p J ah -i ^f i* J* i l ' " t' v' ' 10 ' J .- rj- k j . \ ,/ ' - ' . Q' Now," if that's -correct} has your memory, suddenly/ /' 1 ' iV v- ,,> V, : - V *'J \ - ' -- * / J* 11 developed greater capacity/from what is today, /Wednesday,J3 . __________J i ' il ^ 1 i _ ' . __________ . . J . - J^ ' ^ ____ 3 ____________ y ' * ' 12 1 1f ' ' 1 *|f' / in two days? v. - ,*' "* ,i * -< * t t 1,, r ' * * f t ' ms-'Kj 'l: Has something" occurred/that you can have-that 13 ; ; : jf `a `>'' / /. , revival of your memory powers?, 1 r' - r` ' ' " ' '/. ' Ly ': .* .T * > 14/ V is'! ;\l6 ; V 17 - 1 " >S, * i . t . 8 ' 19 ,20 ` 1 ' 21 . . .. /'1 /^ - A / .My memory--is/still the. same.-'" >/ ;v." - / / vv s- v/y>/ Q ` Still the same,..isn't it? > . "> i j r `: v J- .->>' v. A' 'Yes;-,* '/ * *'lt** ,, ' / ' '**- `lA>,\*A \` ` :rt . ^ t "f-* c .**, j ' "`V. 'J"'"`,'/i ),-^ ' ' i > '/ ,'*' p ' * * / i J ' i v Q' Now,/ can you remember checking at all> Mr. Park? -/h L, i /A., - MayVi see t h `file'on this?, / '*1 .r ; - ' ., ri f *, *r ; 4 * t- * r* 1J - I - `>t k i, * : Can you remember checking t all,'Mie./Pari;? 'v / *-/* ') ' ; ` 1./ , .; `-j 1 ;T i y (r * . /,.tf X 4 r ' r;**^ . '\`rT >" J >*s :r*l.. . *v . Vif. *'22 ' 23 : 24. , A - r.-.1 .cannot'remember specifiJcally checking on''thi'sV ; ` i`pir>Vt!/ \ Yi?> p X - *? irV . . q -'>V' ' ' `.1 . *' i i' * ` I i'"iI ....i, At* ' it # '* '* I,"i J- '1!'/ i*' . . . *#-/-.'>, i> ! ` / V -ii 'K V ' * *. 'S. i It; would-be'significant if: anyone else i f ' % i'' * * i 3 raised "the a y- \* 121 V'' - . i. % V a n 1 1 hmoj m o t o :r*N ` s n n o a v q ' " o a ovsNSd I same issue. 2 Q Well, whether it might or might not be significant, 3 Mr. Park, my question is did this gentleman challenge your 4 statement that this TCDD becomes, would be unlikely to cause 5 any health or environmental hazard particularly when further 6 diluted by customers* operations? 7 A No, he didn't. He only questioned the part about 8 dilution. He did not question that it would be unlikely to 9 cause health or environmental hazards. 10 Q All this time, Mr. Park, now you've told us earlier 11 that -- well, you've told us a number of things. You've 12 said at one point in time that you all never did consider the 13 levels of contamination with TCDD as being irrelevant. And 14 then yesterday morning when Mr. Musgrave asked you questions 15 in the morning, you again said that you did not consider the 16 health effect hazard from dioxin contamination in these 17 products. But then for the greater part of yesterday afternoc 18 you and Mr. Musgrave discussed various levels of TCDD in the 19 product and concluded that they were not health effects, that 20 they wouldn't cause health effects. Now, the point of fact is 21 is that you have indeed at every one of these meetings discuss 22 health effects, not new health effects, but old health effects 23 caused by various levels of contamination with TCDD, haven't 24 you, sir? " r- - 122 - l : A Y. i- would suspect that w e ;had discussed the-possibility *f' , ", Y , Y- T Y Y y Y:Y.Y Y V . ' Y Y Y \ ^ * -v-Y \ - ;lV l` the likelihood* . x Y v 'l- T* :: , .Y ^ Y ' -- > Y Y Y \ ,r'' . V ** . _ \ Y V - .y ; x \ :y . A : *: f y " % % y . i *> 3' ,, `' Q ' Now/'iJSr. `Park; I d i d n 't sk you,whether or n o t Y ^ o u Y Y 1 " < ' -V ;/'r . -.: `\\ A' ;'1 ' '4 1i* i <4< . I- , - *- ^ f J 'k- I ^V J fI J I. , p * ' 'suspected, *it Y ` I fasked -you point blank and _> , point . ! , * -- of, fact 1r*t- ^ tt' 4 f you 1;[Y' ,, >'`jY 5 '1 have at these Y a ; ' t ; 1' ; - / y Yv V ' Y , meetings discussed `every ` Y./ time Y 't the ;.s ; Y *- ha1t h e f f Y 1--Y / . Y ` y y* , t<^wk . ec ts' tM * Y . ^ V ? -, , * i - 7- "J Z` ,, 1 1 * j j t P > Af- r ' - l 1v ^ ( -y l, .; , k . ^i x ^' t' J .x '1 ,' `i Y ^ 1 , ^ -1 * "' . ^ ^ " V . ^ \ '>v;; 6 from certain levels of contamination ivith T C D D , haven *t ;y o u ; 0;/ , , 'A V .' --V/ ' ` l.-' ' ' 1 -V " v *'' ; r " ' r ' r " ,\ : .'v ..- * ,j 7 .r 'six? yN '. ', .. ' v/Y/ . t , -w, ; v` , '' ,c-:, > . , . v, ` - -Y Y , ; ";> . ; - -, (> , -v , ? *". X 'X^-' * XV- ' 'YYYY : "*.t 7'*'.'- '' '-`"jX-i :-8Y :"Y &; 'A e t h e r - i t ; would,;be likely-to occurf y e s . ,/ Y r x . -:* , , */, .n Y-AQ-'Y i s n 't that'aorrecty,^^ .. -.. w - v if;] .i -Y r 1 ' 'i ^ ` r *'T* *'-*., .' ^ ''~ ^ S J' `' ^' , I.,, `'j '-* Y ."J' ,' Jl 10 y ; A If you are-talking a b o u t t he.two.meetings /. ' t `Y; -*'-yj ;-1v ,_ / , 1 --L*'V'v=' `., ' ,,r-':jT'.''.--*v`", ' ^rr.1... ' >- - .* *' #1,1 ''Yr' - '* ' Q risnTt`Jthat correct, Ysir?, "*^; J- Y' ' . f * *r K ". ' , . i 1, Jt "Y-Y; ' ` * .^ - -liY 1Y A. ,1-';s'Y-'-o'-uY s'a1y'.ev*er:y .>one.of' these `m'eYe t i n g s M r . Car*rf-,a-re ,;...v F O R M .IL M B R E N G A D CO.. B A Y O N N E . U . J , . 0 7 0 0 1 1 3 V you talking about the .two [meetings o n dioxin, ontaminati?:' -li hL Y 15 / 'f 3 r- 1# I [ Q: 'v r Or any c o n ta m in a tio n by, t o x ic Y f ` ' J-j-1 . - s u b s t a n c e s , . t h e : fv^-: ^;Y -f* i*/ v Y ' V' ; 1 *t .*tv-. ; i f - -i,, . " k *-Y 17 Y 18 ; i - - , . ' -- ' A ' "*':'`tY discus sed land /.consideredi'the health *Y effects Y '* - . -* /,v -A from certain, levels 19 f / \ .of 20 !,, youy, sir?: ..,! vV f?l - : -A Health.effects; if a n y . Yr,' } ' ,Y '' >\\'t^.. j* V* -Y J --:x^h 22. Y'X :. X x .X X 'X 9 -:, 'Didn *t y o u , * :% X P 'X sir? i .y 'YY-Yv . '., Y a YY:--: ./* ; ^ .,-^YYt.' VYY ' ,, - - -' ^ ,J ,, i;L` . "'ij*'*. -A a rY'j .`2*3'.; A - Whether any wpuld be. likely to occur, y e s . Healthf ",Y 'rY : 'Y'.`iV Ya - ; Y'Yv,,, Y^Y/Y.y X-PP 2 4 ^effects, irVny.' V ;Y; ['Y'-:Y J!' '^ ;Y ^ V-, . Y y Y :? `> -`1Y Y - ,` * > 'Y y Y r /;-Y Y , . Y. -j Y ` ' ?> 'VA V Y- Y 123 - f .1 Y *2 r'` 3" 4 * -5 6 '' t 8' ~ * ' v ` ' " 'if'* j -YY'VY^` Q 1 And connected with rthe ;lavel^o:.conta^inatiorV/^.;^, .. .L , 7- ,. ' , , / ., - * ,,^V: . ,7 , j . -- 1 'Y; '.. -V V *** / i1. * ; V ^'S 'v dldn 't you, ;sir?> Isn't that right,-sir? - - 7 ; / . - r''*\ ^ ^J. '7^*!. : ft *7 / A ` / Yes ' , y , r* r * MIV V V '.A*r .ri \ Q . <7:,- Now,!, those iwereh't new human health ef fects .'* y o.. *u-%--'^*ji-j-,?.*r-.,,'r v.V-- 4 ' ri" 1 '' 7'. J-'* '[ r' rj -considereedd,,t were they,,' sir? ^ '.: ;Y A >:That*s correct.- .. i l : . t . *", - v '` , -- - -- , ` ^ ' ' t . - * l' \ T` '..Q . V Those'were old h e a l t h effects, 4 / ,, /Y^Y^.,,- . weren't J *' :r. i - - t 1` X ' 1 * ", . : they/^sir? , <: .. . i \ y y *f utr-. f-v, /. v v -\ E. ' -'---f7' r '* ''' V*',' .*t ' V ; J , . -i I'-r - . t " '. A/'/-'ThatVs c o r r e c t . 1 - 'Z ? 10 Y"J 11>/ 12 "' `V V``' , rJ s ` ' : ' ' * Q,;., And'each ana every meeting you discussed- -those/ /- . a - health effects/ didn't'you,-sir?. --fji ; ,r'V t ... * t t / S t. ' ' A -/ /;I;.think that's correct.' ;/ . ; -.r ,'1 `"v` / `/-/'''V tV 1 * , , \r- r ' I i ` . ! ' iT ' ' ' ~r`:- 1 ' ,j ;> *1 t-.1' . . i : ;V ' r . .f j : ` . -%.1 , / v , : ' i" :.'V Q ': ; And#.Mr* Park,`you testified.-last week'that it * ,- : . '.- /; > " ` '* / `Vl. .,*" ; '!. . 1 3 r. would have to be .contamination of something greater than y- v , ' -* * r J* * ", ',/ . ' ' F ^ 1 1^ V' AI ' . .1 4 ,Y: is tt * /. 16 , trace: - amounts / b e , fto rv-e iat- vV*w..ou"l`Ad3 ?be considered ,. a si - g n i f i c-a n t / a n d ; ' v.;> , .r , v - : k v *f\v ,... . <.r y < $ t : : before you woul1 dJ conside-- r .reportii_n___g_ ' l;xit J t o______ 2 . 1t. ^he/EPA, d23o_ . you;/^,________1 , ' * ' .2, ;j/ t remei^er -'triatV^^si'r?^^^^ }p ;\ - V v / - iJ':} `^: !r ' '" ' . /.' ; i ,r,k;*V;`.n' 1 7 V ; :"/- iVV't'Z '? specific.' I'll take your W r d 1/"Sis a ~}*i"r 19 . 20 - y ,21-; 22 23V '2'4 - for it, MMirr. Cr.ar-rYr*. , " ' '!'V 7'>r..'/1a,*^ j.' f * - 1 ^ Q *, " Arid 'do you reraember also testifying' that y o u ///.. / ^ V \Vt. ,, - `I - c * T 'considered anything J' ' ' " ' * /' ' ^ ' '. from,.detectable' , ' J rj f' levels up, to .'' ,' one percent; . ' , * ,2 . r < ' X \* ' . 1 -i>tVj,f`- as being a trace amount?'. . > ,. / :iv ;.r- .'T t" ` /' r ,' '' - :'V L .. -r..:- - * \ t* . A ,.I remember having- great, difficulty a sA * o' v;to. whak , J / 4*1 ^ J l , tt i"-/ /tran cJ . e2<H* *.*^7i^ ' 1*f. 4. i.' r:*-* .- ,v- .... * ., * -1 j -. Vs>.i--/'"\* >-*.,v. . A* > .( was/' - Z '//'S'/;-'*' . vy- rj ^ s ** ,, "1''. l - rF' 1_/dJl/..or1i*;, y1 Lo'u.* . r e' m* , *e mkb,e r'-.,v.t-ha~,t, f* sir? 1, : 4 ' *j w* ! f. -. 1. /;/ - , ' \vZ / ...' 4 - / ." /'124 - /,. , :* '.t < ; - ' ^/ FORM IL 2 4 B PEN GAD C O :. 'BAY O N N E, N .J. 0 7 0 0 2 >A J' ' - ' " *' 1 - .* ' / - , - -, < l \ V!/1`;' -. f>-.J 1 ; Y \ ? ** j ^ , ... , ? .. - v -l.-.y* .'* ** -,' *.`-vr j ' \. -+- ^ * - *>'?Vr.rVYJ Y>*. ,-. * r1 * ` . l -j -,, > ' ,, . ' ^H, f Y . " *t ^ 1 V 'f. /jU> > ' 4J ' ' V .* 1. * A V X remember 'you, kept pin m e ,down,.!on^that . A; .y y Jj 1 ^ ' j ? 3\ . , ",- * * **.' '* ' ^` V . V , - > - v - *;" ' /- f 'J/ V" --] ^ V V1^ \.', V;; V >*;a , v , _Q,J Yes; i a i a ; >; -v:',y, 'a , y c y ; (!.. i '(V-> - v ,tS/ / ' -, r ` f rV r / *' 'f* -T' 1 *' r ^1- r \ ^ , V- / V '?. "A r And' I jus t don *t ;k n o w . ^ That' s an analytlcal' .-j ,, ' `, -J\'y,-,y'' 'i> . \ ii 'v , r^'y y".-'_ , ,> <. Vvy i.<` V `A4-V- chemist .v * v V- ; ' j . .y' s\; ,i ' j J^ .*\ ,y ? y y y,;6v - , Q , E x c u s e m e . My'question is\not whether . o r .hot; I t; : ' . * _J: 'rl'']'"', 1 ' V/y' ' 'f ^' ;,,y y >. f- - 1 * * _ trying 'to;.pin 'you dQvm ;. but 'thieV'question isywhether or -not r ' L< * * .'* 1 "i . i t; ' , J , f .. / . J . ' r1 > ' - , , ^ f ; *1 j i , ' .t J ' 1' ^ !, - fy y -* - i ^ ^ * i > ' . . .J. " : / ` 7 y ' -,I' succeeded^ and whether? or not you d i d n o t i n :fact testify,!' \t ,f^m*! ' '*'*. `/v ^ ., ;V(?y ` r ' 'f ?! -***// - -r *-*"*'*'"?>* . that /trac :amounts -in your, `judgmeht would "be *detectable,j!}- . - ' ` ' - ` '*>,? , ,-Vr ' ? j f -- y 1 ' /j-,i' ,-f' , V ># ' " \ . y .y. ,..;t V ! 1 . /' 9. amounts> sb many -parte' iper! millip'nv /ahything 'up -to. one -percent; yv;Y : io -'`'`.-'r Vi' ?-'s? i* V , ??,Wr,* /v^?-''*.-1'?';v'yA??*;'v-?*/`1? J.y'* ?;' ,! ,v-v?- V i s n '*tt that ;whatvyou -testified !then, ;sir? -' ^ ' 1 .:. -,?y *"?'>'.;? * . ` "'- i . '. 'V - ` TM ' - ' r '-. t-i1 , ' * -y r . , / ' , 1 4- . > .1 i Vi - ' r1 y y \\ ? - i,y ' iVt /Vp 'V>' - ^ v'V .'-'-A'l!J??Xr!-,may^ha^v:t>-'.*'ywhsy,iv 1 ,, t:. - ;r ,, r -, j ' \ 1 >- ; 'r< W;x i.V*:,r`r '-V'/;V -, , .v?-*/.'"- -.:,y`,;y?- - > , - L * . , i.i - r [' '12 -. Q-;;:?iNow> Parle} ,,!if,;yqu-,are only goingvto discuss, '? , .. ' ' ' " ' :'-f ,i. vi ',v. '//1 > i. <''/ . ^ V J-v, - - , ; ' ' ' ? '- :y y y 13 - and,yyou<are/onlyi-ugoing toyrepoArt,i':t:>conce:nytrations of TCDD ; i ' ,, ' * \ '- { ^ ? ?r 7^'! " -v::-` . :''< v?.1:*- ^ .- ^ L /'*' '* ^ ^ ` j* i ^ J^ tf* -V i r ^ Jl I* ' V 4 ' t wF V^ F j r . . , 1 4 ; ;`cont^piination^abovG^pney^ r that *s .ten million' parts .per , < * >, *'-f ' V U 5 . /billion/ M r ., P a r k isn^tvit;^ .sir? ; ' '^i''`iJ ^ y ?v *.' V-16;Y yv,/ Jr ' `?"V''u=.'/^?'U-.,-y*' f M R MDSGHAVE: -, , "J'':'f> - *'- '* -y' '^ -,1 !?'v 'Obj e ti there is no testimony that;;`i ' f-V * L*yV B A Y O N N E . N . j ' 0 7 0 0 2 .< F O R M - I L - 2 4 B i '' " ' " `.>1 I*I_ J Ir. 'i.y^1-' i .`r' *- ` J `j.i * ^ /(*ft ''N >-vv< Y / / n : , ; /' L this man, has testified^1h' would only report ,,levels'.o^ r yVci1 y y ,: *1 8 *4 ' t f _F A , * V -; .19 ?; V that nature* It/s./a mischaracterizatioh of the testimony* i>*i .. -y. ; / '-"v ' ; ' V ' A y '-y../! v v in vidence intentionally? and r!t^ 'Vv . request the jury be" ' -A ?'i A--A?iV.Y V'-^ y . ^ : J'V ./' :20i'V 3uj*j-!>' 'r'- .' * 21 -' ' y^ ; f'"> . ' instructedtto disregard'it, v; ,? ; k;\/../y?'y\.? /.' ` -/ ' \ y y :?y - THE COURT: Overruled;., ,yVY' ^ y`< ^-rv -v ;?7+'i Wi " ry-'y * A r Y.' * v;*?; *ir > rJ< : vY yy J jr* y 22 '. * 2 3 ..; yY 'I ", - r? ;w -* '* j.-i ' , ^ > ,' .+yy. 'ii5' .* y / A y i d i d n ' t / s t a t e a n y thing like that, Mr Cart1.^ 'y y, ?/. y .i r? J' '*?,j'. ,`7' " '?? ; *?<,* , ? ' `v"; '; ? 'y ?* f Q ; You;didn11, 'sir?-'. \ .; '' 1 ' . - '-? y -f 1 ,1 -a.,, , j* **- v v * . y .. ' . . i -, - 1 .. ' ^` *"`1 * * * f ; ,A/r . I may have said trace amounts,, when X?was saying* i t -Til - 125 - V. 'if * *iA */ could be anything depending on the contents on anything up to 2 one percent. X would agree with you that ten million would be 3 ten percent of a billion. * 4 Q That's not what I 'm asking you, Mr. Park. You said 5 on Page 19 of the -- 6 MR. MUSGRAVE; Which date is that? 7 MR. CARR: April 11, 1985, this is the portion of 8 the transcript, and it may be a different page on the 9 full transcript. This is the part that I had produced 10 ahead of time. 11 Q (MR. CARR) And X asked you what you considered 12 to be trace amounts. And the question was, you are saying at 13 those meetings you do not cover, you do not discuss the level 14 of contamination? And your answer then, it would. If it was 15 significant. And then I asked you, what levels you considered 16 significant. 17 MR. MUSGRAVE: Do you want to read his answer now, 18 Mr. Carr? 19 Q (MR. CARR) And you hedged and I persisted -- 20 MR. MUSGRAVE: I object to counsel -- just a moment, 21 Mr. Carr. I object to counsel's commenting that the 22 witness hedged, that's totally improper. 23 A* * THE COURT: Gentlemen, could you approach the bench 24 and bring the transcript, please? ;'4 t ,$ 126 1 2 .: one percent. Question, anything that you can detect u p t o , - t t . i ' ,,, r 'i < '* ,v . ; ,,' / f ' o n e .percent is considered a significant'amount? And your y 3 .4 S. 6 7 a n s wer ,i--1 , f-. % 1 was i * - >Xsse, iyour. q i '/, < r: .I-/-'"i * li. * *. > 1 J) ue V K sti -1 _| 1 o n . was what :would..I >1 r^ consider trace e .. * A 'i .K ' A;. A n d t h e n l 'asked you -- - "y ^ A ^ ^ *f. ' i'j '- t - J N* } / ; M R i 'MUSGRAVE:.,^May 1 inquire, as to the purpose of v >J V ; *i Mr ."-Carr reading this prior testimony? I don't understand ;<. J- ir '\'" X J.,;/ *.'**> vi/:1;; i , -"' . `X ; it and I object to counsel just willy-nilly reading :r ;8 ^ testimony into the record, Your Honor. I object. 9 y. ` TH 'COURTx i Overruled. y :' \y - 10 Q ' (MR., CARR) A n d y o u responded.to a question, what jr y 11 " ^ `1 t 11 V would you consider to,be of significant -- this is the top of 12 Page 23, counsel. What would you.consider to be or signifi- 1 3 canca for dioxin in your chlorinated phenols. And your answer, 1 4 : was, as a lawyer responding,tp a chemist's question, I would' 1 5 ` say I.would guess that, depending upon the substance, a.trace ,* f j 1" *. *i ( '. T,, , j -, l .fc " - ^. r ` *. A 1 6 - . amount could be anything, any concentration perhaps up to one ; ' 1J ( '*** 1 7 ' ' percent. Do you recall saying that, sir? _\V P E NGAD CO.. BAYONNE. N J , 1 8 A I can't recall it clearly, but if it's; in th; record 1 9 ,1then I did, yes. '. 'j `y . ; j' 1. ; . " ' '*.Ay V: r , /:1 ` 20 ... Q .' , . Now, ` and at a later *' '* ``.'\ '-, v X" point you said,: well, it ;V would i \;.,-'Vi- 1n1. , r, 21 r i . ; ,` -, i' >' . f ` - ' V '* ."i'i * . be several parts per million, and then,we went into a.solilbquy 22 do`es 'a t'housand,m'ean- sI etv'eral,, 'and','w,e f*inally* s.e<t* upon between^ i 2 3 ' one and thirty parts per million as several. And do yoii recal; ;; `..`VA . x ; - % y.-x 2 4 that you,.testified then that trace amounts, that is that you - 129 - 1 have defined need not be reported to the EPA? Do you recall 2 that, sir? 3 A Not specifically, Mr, Carr, but if that's in there, 4 then I did say it, S Q Do you want to read your answer so you can refresh 6 your recollection, sir? 7 A Mr. Carr, I have been over here many hours and X 8 cannot remember everything that I have said, 9 Q My question is do you want to read it so as to know 10 whether or not exactly what you said to that question and that 11 answer? 12 A Yes, 13 MR, MUS6RAVE: Tell me where you are showing, 14 MR, CARRt Page 30 in the middle of the page, 15 MR, MUSGRAVEt Page 30, that's not what you read to 16 him before, 17 MR, CARRi What? 18 Q (MR. CARR) Is your recollection refreshed now, 19 Mr. Park? 20 A X am not quite through reading your question, Mr, 21 Carr. Could X read the question out loud? 22 Q Do you need to read it out loud to understand what 23 you are reading, Mr, Park? 24 A X th in k i t m ig h t h e lp , - 130 - * l 1i, 'i m , - **- -/ * > ,, `j . ` .. A4; i t ' * < . -"'r ` It \ . fV . ' , n 1 q " '`Help you understand,it? Mr* Park, can't.you'-'under-,., 1 *# t '* * L. " \ 2 stand a word without:. -V .When' you read, to y o u r s e l f y o u really *, t` 3 don't read out loud to yourself, do you, sir? My question is 4 do you read out loud to yourself, sir? r 5 A Sometimes when there's a convoluted question, Mr. 6 Carr. * -- ` -,r . , 7 Q Do you want to study it some more, sir? ' ` ;*: 8 A I'm just not sure quite what the question was. i^'1_ 9 Q V7ell, do you want to study it some more, sir? '' 10 A Yes. !'t' ,, * / r /. r'' 11. Q Read it some more and study it some more? :\ / 12 A Uh-huh. Okay,.all right. .Yes. 1 3 Q Mow, Mr* Park, dp you now remember that you testified 1 4 that you heed not report trace amounts or less to the EPA ; V 1 5 under the mandatory provisions of the Toxic Substance Control 16 a c t? 1 7 A . That's what I said. 1 8 Q I know that's what you said, Mr* Park, b u t l am ; ,' , ' ., J . ' >' L ,, 1 9 asking you do you recall now that that is what you-said? - , 20 A I don't recall-the specific event * Mr* Carr, but 21 I read the, transcript. So, I will assume that r said that, 22 I accept that I said that. '" ^J ' * 2 3 , Q Mr* Park, if all this'time when you were talking to s 2 4 Mr* Muegrave about levels that you were considering with Mr. - 13l - I Musgrave, and telling how, what you considered about that ;4 " * j' 2 thing, why would your committee even discuss that when clearly .> > - * v 3 none of your products have dioxin at ten million parts per 4 billion? Why would you even discuss It, sir? 5 A This is discussed by toxicologists and analytical 6 chemists and others who know what they are talking about. I 7 write down what they say, Mr. Carr. 8 Q Well now, did anybody ever tell you what was a safe 9 level if one percent is not the level? 10 A I think a safe level is going to vary with the 11 product in its use and so on. And whatever it is we're talkln 12 about. 13 Q Well, nobody's going to quarrel with that, Mr. Park. 14 My question is did anybody ever tell you we have what Dr. 15 Paget said here, did anybody ever tell you what was a safe 16 level? 17 A Of what, Mr. Carr? 18 Q Of dioxin contaminant in your chlorinated phenols, 19 any or all of your chlorinated phenols. 20 A I frankly can-.n-ot recall^. 21 Q And if you don't know what is safe levels, and you > * 22 cannot recall ever determining what was a safe level, then why 23 don't you error on the side of safety, why didn't you error on 24 the side of safety and report your dioxin content to the EPA? - 132 I THE COURT: I 'll incorporate all those objections. 2 It will be admitted over objection. 3 MR. CARR: I ask leave to pass the exhibit to the 4 jury. 5 THE COURT: Yes, you may. 6 (At this time the exhibit was passed to the jury.) 7 Q (MR. CARR) Mr. Park, this memo, your May 14 version, 8 has attached to it a memo from Clayton Callis, and I think 9 you've described Dr. Callis before, have you not? 10 A I have referred to him before, yes. 11 Q And he makes a suggestion that you should hedge at 12 the end of the report, doesn't he, sir? 13 A No, he says note my suggestion for hedging at the en<3 14 Q Nell, isn't that what h e 's saying? He's telling you 15 to hedge at the end? 16 MR. MUSGRAVE: Your Honor, my objection, this 17 document requiring this witness to testify as to what 18 someone else meant by comments put on a document, to 19 speculate and state conjecture as to what they may or may 20 not have meant beyond what the words say, the document 21 speaks for itself. May that be a continuing objection 22 and I assume it's overruled. 23 THE COURT: It is overruled and it will be a 24 continuing objection. 134 1 MR* MUSGRAVE: Thank you. 2 Q (MR. CARR) Isn't that what the gentleman suggested 3 by this memo that there should be hedging at the end? 4 A Z think he meant just what he says, note my 5 suggestion for hedging at the end. 6 Q Now, Doctor, if your committee -- Mr. Park, if your 7 committee is concerned about the health of the public or 8 concerned that the EPA should get the correct information, 9 why would Dr. Callis want to hedge at the end? 10 A I don't understand why he said what he did, because 11 if he didn't, as Z see it, substantially alter what I had said. 12 The meeting -- 13 Q You adopted his language, didn't you, sir? 14 A I always try to adopt the language given to me by 15 people more experienced in technical matters than I. 16 Q But my question is, you did adopt the language, 17 the final report, Exhibit 1292, Plaintiff's Exhibit 1292, 18 indeed does contain that hedging paragraph, sentence, doesn't 19 it, sir? 20 A Z don't have it before me, Mr. Carr. 21 Q Miss, could you give him Exhibit 1292? 22 A The meeting reconvened, I know, after there had been 23 an opportunity to review this NCI study which had been referred 24 to in the Federal Register Notice at a later date. So I don't - 135 - ty 4 1^ f' I - '3 4 ' `5 "6 V.x "j 8 ?\ : 10 l 12 :P L14 . Is 16 17 18 19 20 - 21 22 ` 23 24 K*' .know why h e ;said that i . ,' '" J i<'*SV n Q W l l , you want a little farther , t o o #. didn t y o u #V l 1 - `v jrVK.r : r; , - 9 sir# you askedLDr.. Paget to g i v e y o u something,[ didn/1 ,youv;>f sir? Did you hear my question, Mr.Park? * .,, "* A > 1 * - , " r f i . \* vF X . r .t* if" , i" 1 " 1" ^, , L I'm still reading .this, sentence, L ^ , s , > j ' p * r ^1a j !#*' ^ *\r*. * - Ji l ; t.v Mr. Carr. Just, one -;rv:^ > ,,f ^ moment. 'v r ' *< P/ lp * v ' * *- f* ' ' vi.`.-'- ' f 'i , * _ r,\ _ p L. I- b Q; I 'm hot asking -y o u .a question how about; t h a t r, / . /$ sV 1,: sentence# Mr. 'r;^ Park . / I 'm *; *'\.t ' passing to. another point " at V^v the-same;' -i v`. ... .. . m/er'e--t*ing.'\p ;Jr. r* V-.f , V; '* 1_ ,--' \.A * okay. v" : 1i'. f-* f * ``1r f-i ` Q. /You asked^Dr. Pagetyto^ give you. something# didn^t ^ T' -'V ' ` ^ r.' l'.V: ';/!'*' i* ; I ,l"' you#'sir#' ,to include in a;new revised reportf d i d n rt you# sir? i' -- ?L<-> `' -^ #- ' ~ r*l,1 l^ ` `j-j -. / > .^ A ' Ho, I think.we had expected Dr. Roush to do this :+A *j -1 , > . ' . , * . *. ' , i- l " , j and X would"guess that D r . Roush was then unavailable-later ^, : ; J , ; vV i' ` *1 7 L" ' 7 ' - . k. . .. ` i, j ', /` . ,, V ^ ? ` 'j \ and so. Dr . Paget took .his place and reviewed ttie miriutes ; : r t *' . . J', *r..V < -i f'. ,, , * ,* ' -J `'-VL j Q J- And didn* t you ask Dr . Paget to supply .something., / y. a ^ ,z : -y- ,v:^ ^ ? to.you# sir# to take;away from the import zuid the significance : f \ i : * ^TTN' i*^ ' --r-' ` o f rt h e " r e p o r t fro m N C I7 v , / /v d * i' J/ meeting? ii 11^ you have got' . t o f'*, do ;ist '- .V r '> t say i,- t'..-i-i/VJ '< I f- lilt,': ` k ->-i,-1' 17. I ` 1 l l ' ' 3^J f < ,` f t V * .. I y o u Jd o n 11 remember; s i r .,! ^ .1*,,. A Xglanced a tthis file hurriedly just i"'* i.'! f' a -few nday'.s*'* - 'f ` if ago# and I believe Z remember that Dr. Roush was unable to ' V - : v ' \ . y !-;/ " V' V ; V . attend t h e ;subsequent meeting# that Dr- Paget reviewed the y 'i..' T - ' i 3 6 `;V . eYONNE*NJ. 07002 FORM ILtZB ,s 1 ,- J - r ? i* NCI report, it was -- he reviewed that for the-\group when the, 2 group convened to consider a report on the NCI report." The^ * :' - ' "'"V,. 3 group concluded -- I'd,like to see the minuteB* '>r; *j .O 4 Q Mr. Park, what I 'm asking you is a simple question, ' 5 di d n 't you ask pr. Paget, to supply you with something? / , ' ' i , ' v' 6 A W e l l , I asked him to provide me with what should ,go 7 in the final minutes to reflect the view of the group, 8 Q Tha t 's all I asked you, Mr. Park. That w a s n 't.,. 9 L1 really difficult to answer., , , ... ' r *t ' 10 A Okay. '^ n (Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 1311 was marked for 12 identification by the reporter,).' *. * > * M 1 3 Q (MR. CARR) ^ow, did you tell him what you had in J 1 4 mind, what you needed? t i * l"*; i 1 5 Ar .To the extent ;that; X needed something to 'reflect. : : .;f: ;v';;: ; \ . 1 6 the views of the group to go in the minutes. -. --, <. * ' 1 7 Q ;weil> where were the views ;:of the group other, than / 1 8 what I have^given before?, ^ ' . J iV \ - 1 ; ' 1'''v ` '- * ` *** : ' 1 9 A They were expressed at the meeting attended b y 'DrV 20 Paget. r r T ` iy mt. . Y 44 Y-?./.'u 21 Q Didn't you tell Dr. Paget that you needed something; I i " fi / to take away from the NCI report th a t, you could' qu`otSe ' diredtly in your report, sir? ** A I d o n 't recall that. Is that in the minutes? - 137 - 1 Q Well, let me hand you Plaintiff's Exhibit 1311, sir, 2 A Yes. 3 Q Do you recognize that as a note from Dr. Paget? 4 A Yes. 5 MR. CARR: I'll offer 1311 into evidence and ask 6 leave to pass it to the jury, Your Honor. 7 MR. MUSGRAVE: Same objection with regard to the 8 prior exhibits, the subject matter. 9 THE COURT: So noted. Objection is overruled. You 10 may pass it. 11 Q (MR. CARR) For the record, this is another document 12 we were given for the first time last night, Your Honor. Now, 13 it's a simple point. Dr. Park, you told -- Mr. Park, you told 14 Dr. Paget what you needed or what you had in mind, didn't you? 15 A I asked for something from him being a toxicologist 16 that X could place in the minutes. 17 Q But you see, he is not a toxicologist -- well. I'll 18 take that back, he purports to be in this area. And you did 19 take from him then this report and you did incorporate this 20 statement of his in this record, didn't you, sir, in your memo 21 A I would like to see my file if I might to confirm 22 that. 23 Q Well -- 24 A I would suspect that I did. 138  You can have Plaintiff's Exhibit 1275. Could you give him Exhibit 1275, and if the complete file is here you can have it as well. Did you bring that? A Yes, Mr. Carr# it does appear that I incorporated Dr. Paget's remarks into the minutes of the meeting. Q Now, there weren't at that meeting any new health effects discussed, were there, sir? A I'm sorry, 1 just can't recall. It was the NCI study Q Well, if you would look at your various memos, sir, it wasn't a new health effect that you determined by any study, was it, sir? A I don't believe there were any new health effects. Q Insofar as the contamination of these products is concerned, you testified yesterday when Mr. Musgrave was questioning you, that if you found hasardous levels in the chemical that you were manufacturing, that you would report it to the EPA, didn't you, sir? A If it presented a substantial risk of injury to health or the environment. Q Well, I use the word hazardous levels, by definition that means injury, doesn't it, sir? A On that basis, I suspect we would. * i Q And didn't you tell Mr. Musgrave yesterday that if 139  '; ' y -v ,,\/..V.-,,-:.* -y; r1". 1'. . *-v y - : y .- y . ,* *1'..\ty,-"ji*,^%.*nHi.v',>.,1**r,*J ' 1 your chemical contained hazardous .leveIs of contaminant v " : . i. .. ` '- ' .. : 1V *'./ '* 2'; dioxin# that you would report.it? 3 4 -,r 'S* 6; 7 ' 8' y A I c a n 't recall exactly what I said# Mr. Carr. * Ifi ' ' "'!:* - > ;yy4 -- . -",v y 1.1 i*yJ\iy<'-vivVv it presented a substantial risk of injury# Z think we would J. '*. , . y. Q < J?ellr now/vM r , .Musgrave used the words hazardous; _y levels# and;you responded to . - . r. ^ ^v,.;:..y .. v. M r 2-iusgrave, 1 -a ... yes, .v if there .were' V`'f.`'"i y *-/*'i*vi'>.'u.-vf*,'1 hazardous levels present in the .product that you would report 7` -' > ' A,,; If r did,. I did, LMr. .Carr., 9 il 10 11 ; ;" *" ^"*> ii* -'V-ITJVf7 -he*. ' ulsaveo1s*o''^iVt h e 1w` o- r' d'.**>hazardous level and you agreed s- \ \ j-t' * V - J ` - r \> f 'VivVi 1-' r L * "V ^ yV < > . }'i. * '-k - /.? ' ^ 1r >, v-;*> i, V. ' , with it, why won?t you .allow me to use the same words# sir? -/ / -**V*.!'; T* .r' ( h, J.V s> T .< i ` ' V -ypu^may -l^yeyused,them 'differently rin your question^ 12' r ^ M r . C a r ' . y v'- i , ;` V* \ : /. ~ ;; / 1 3 Q He, was' asking, you whether or not you 'would report itj -* > f.i 1 4 under TSCA# Section 8(e),# and .you said you would if .the;tank 15 car contained-hazardous levels of ;the contaminant. You- saldV \\ -r, *f 1 6 specifically in discussing Monsanto Exhibit'882 that i f t h e 17 ftrans were hazardous.to health .. ' * / ^ * ' ** * ^ f -./ , f * L *? v r iV- p ^ '* " 1^ * . T1 1 \\ 1 8 . > MR. MUSGHAVEj So as to create .a substantial risk, 19 20'` '7 21', Mr; Carr,'did I perhaps use those*, words?- /* " .. v,n*.7*".,*-' ;", yv . Q Vl3o; rit just says here hazardous% o health r; v i V " .* ^ : M R ..rMUSGHAVE : ^ Is that a v 1 r; c . the transcript, Kr v v^ Carr, or (, r * -221 2 3 ,. 4 . '* / 24 J j. }.' i j - ,* , -` * tl 'J . is thatt just your notes? , : ; y- / - % ^ / r. ^ -Sf. * 1 ' '/`-A "` j-' _ '-.v ' , . * `1 te;, <^RRi' [I t 's; my notes. ^Do you have abbtter \ . f . . _* `^ i . 1^ ** , jaqtation,; sir?' ' y if-. >v. -.140 - ,. 1 MR. MUSGRAVE: I was standing up asking questions, 2 Mr. Carr, I wasn't taking notes. 3 Q (MR. CARR) And I don't care whether you use the 4 word hazardous really ornot, sir. You testified with Mr. 5 Musgrave whether it was a substantial risk to health or not 6 that you would be required to report it to the EPA. Do you 7 recall that, sir? 8 MR. MUSGRAVEi I'll object to that as a misrepre 9 sentation, whether it was a substantial risk or not, he 10 would be required -- II Q (MR. CARR) If it was a substantial risk, you would 12 be required to report itto the EPA, if it contained levelsof 13 a toxic substance. Do you recall that, sir? 14 A I will accept that if it presented a substantial 15 risk of injury to health and the environment, we would report 16 it. 17 Q Well, what you said more specifically, you said a 18 case could be made that no report is required, is what you sal 19 But then you went on to say that you would report it. 20 A Yes. We're back to another thing again, Mr. Carr. 21 To my interpretation of the act which is one thing, and what 22 I feel that the company would do which is something else. 23 Q The company thus far has done it the way, at least 24 the occasions you have been connected with, has done it the ' 141 1 way that you interpreted the act, haven't they, air? We 2 went through that once already, Mr. Park. Remember, we just 3 established that before the break, I think after lunch we 4 established that the committee took your advice on the law, 5 do you recall that, sir? 6 A Yes. The company does lean over backwazds, we have 7 held 8(e) meeting when I think -- 8 Q Oh, the company leans over backwards in holding 9 the meetings. I'm not quarreling with that. Oh, yes indeed, 10 you hold meetings every time -- well, not really every time 11 because there is a lot of products you have come out of there, 12 but that you never held meetings on, but you do hold the 13 meetings. You didn't hold any meetings on any of these 14 levels of dioxin, but you do hold meetings. And I'm not 15 challenging you on failure to hold the meetings, Mr. Park. 16 My challenge is your failure to report these levels to the 17 EPA, that's my challenge, sir. You understand that, don't 18 you, sir? 19 A I understand what you say, Mr. Carr. 20 Q You understand I'm not finding fault with Monsanto 21 for simply failing to hold meetings? You do understand that, 22 don't you, sir? 23 A If you so say, yes. 24 Q Now, h o l d i n g t h e m e e tin g i s n o t e q u i v a l e n t t o 142 1 reporting to the EPA, is it, sir? 2 A Thats correct. 3 Q And my question now, sir, is you said to Mr. 4 Musgrave that if the tank car had a level of harmful 5 contaminants in it, that would be hazardous or injurious to 6 the health of the people exposed to it, that you would 7 report it to the EPA, didn't you, sir? 8 A I said I would suspect that we would, I would 9 assume that we would. 10 Q Now you are saying that because you believe the law 11 obliges you to do that? 12 A Not at all, Mr. Carr. 1 have explained the law. 13 Q You are doing it out of the goodness of your heart. 14 You are back again to saying that you are not required to 15 report it? 16 A Yes. There are a lot of things that are not requirt 17 by Section 8(e), a great many things. It's quite limited in 18 its scope. 19 Q And it's clear we are back then to the, if you had 20 a tank car that by some fluke, manufacturing accident, 21 contained half cyanide or half 2,3,7,8, TCDD, and going out 22 for inclusion in santopehn and Lysol or 2 ,4-dichlorophenol, 23 it is your position, still your position then, that the law 24 doesn't require you to report that fact to the EPA? - 143 ' . ' 1 A Under 8 (e), no. There would be a number of things 2 we would do. But a Section 8(e) report would not be required. 3 Q You still believe that you are doing a favor then 4 and not something that is required by the law, is that correct, 5 sir? 6 A If we did file a report in that context? 7 Q Yes. 8 A It would be doing something beyond what Is required 9 by the law. 10 THE COURT: Mr. Carr, is this a good point for a 11 short break? 12 MR. CARR: Yes, Your Honor. 13 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we will take a 14 short break and resume testimony and the admonishments 15 I have given you earlier will apply to this break, also. 16 (Whereupon a short break was taken, after which time 17 the following proceedings were had in the presence and 18 hearing of the jury.) 19 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 1302-A was marked for identi 20 fication by the reporter.) 21 Q (MR. CARR) Mr. Park, do you recognize 1302-A as a 22 blowup of that exhibit which I previously asked you questions 23 about? .i 24 A I believe I do. * 144 '' *' , v* ^ v- ** *'* J r '. '` '... ,^' ' \ ' * 'i '"`J / ,f. /"> f c ! ; r r '"" ' J ;' \ l 1-* V f,.-J' ?r,)L*.-J ;-Vt*r.-i4 7'-/ *vr - ft- '\ * ` .* -* f '' ' . V ! , ` r- .* > / f .%',V' -, -` : -i f ;./<>: i*X*\ -f / " W -V-V -T A . ; 4 1 'a Dealing wi^..2) 4 - a f % r p p h e n o l ? V- ' , V / " ; - 2 ijiV . ^ 'Yes'. L v ? Vk- f\ 3 -j MR. CARS : 1 Offer-1302-A'into evidence If it p l e a s e 1;;.-* :V.f'Vi" 4 . , the court;1 ftVJ- ,,Vr * V* t 5 ''* j'i1 f r^ f r; 7 ; . MR.;MUSGRAVE: ..Is' that the same as ~ 'same o b jection^ . - v ^ \s> '/ *,'*./. *' ', V \ 4 Your Honor -- , .' ' , ;:. !.'> THE ''COURT :' Fine, \ I *1 1; incorporate -them. vi / j V:'^;V^3 \^ / 8 >BIR;- MUSGRAVE: '-- previously made ..to ;the exhibit in its hon-blowup form. 10 THE C O U R T ' T h e y are incorporated and admitted.oyer r .L "r- ^% ` 12 "'f : i3.: it ** ,r - ^` the objections :% Q- (MR,: CARR) T ' - \, r ' - // */ r " : ^ L ; h J V; 'V*\; ,How,' Mr , Park,' you were discussing "the. .' . . j '* . - ` ", .^ . * 'J ' * ' I . . ( ' . reporting, to the EPA.. Now, we have, established,-to your . 14 satisfaction that'other .companies have reported ,t h e .occurrence J> " 15 : 16 "i?' ; of dioxin,in their.products,. have .we not > sir?. \ 'r ;; .*./'i*' 7 '*'"' -, ; . If you are1referring to this l i s t w" looked at ' '3 ' V/;L -`.v- \v*- 1. "i.t; V-1 1*! F* 'i.' earlier, we really don*t know, what the:circumstances ,were ' S .1 ' 9 PENGAO CO..BAYONNE. N.J 18 `'A or what the reports were*- . . . t:; ; ' v #' / ( .19- ''-Vf Q` ^ Weil; 1` wha`-t ry-out/kne`w, ,i wh1at r, was -T. in - ^yo.*u^rV-tf-ile, "y`iouVv-- ijv5i *".Vf' -i . i. ~v - 2 0 knew"v/hat other companies were reporting.;unlessvyou've g p t ^ / :^ \j * 21~ > ` * - j: - , ..sme more 'information that's not : in your /' * iLv -, file, you did^ know' . 22. " and you have agreed that other companies have reported :the'.'. .Yrf*-' V*\'VX"&,i>1', h ! y *`f - 1 23 - .24 ! occurrence of dioxins, in their products * ` PI '" >i "."V - \ ' W - ' ' ( 'J : "- ' , ^ :'f i* \MR.J MUSGRAVE:. ;i t' e.ilieve th1<e>!.re is o.nVly one ,AM r ^ Carr -* - - 145 -V - r " ^ v "; >4y V 1 You showed him, anyway. 2 MR. CARR: No, I showed him a number of them. 3 MR. MUSGRAVE; Both of them were Velsicol, one was 4 Dow, and it dealt with fish and mud. I don't believe 5 Dow makes fish and mud, Mr. Carr. 6 MR. CARRi You have seen the reports, you have seen 7 this 1306 in which others have reported referable to 8 dioxin and at least one of which deals with dioxin in 9 their products, isn't that correct, sir? 10 A That's what this list indicated. 11 Q All right. Now, Mr. Park, you did not report to 12 the EPA the content of the tank car that spilled even though 13 OSHA came in and cited your company and required that it be 14 cordoned off so that workers couldn't get to it, required 15 that the workers that were there wear protective clothing, 16 because there was a hundred and fifty, or they reported a 17 hundred fifty parts per billion of TCDD or 2,3,7,8 TCDD, I 18 can't remember which at this point in time, but nevertheless 19 OSHA required Monsanto to take that action for the protection 20 of the workers. Are you aware of that. Or if you are not 21 aware of that I'm telling you that as a fact. And now you 22 know it. But yet, notwithstanding that, and that OSHA made 23 that finding, your committee did not consider that that 24 2,4~dichlorophenol contained high enough levels of contaminant 146 1 to report -- oh, strike that* Your view is that whatever the 2 level of toxic substance in your 2,4-dichlorophenol need not 3 be reported. In any event, it wasn't reported, was it, sir, 4 by Monsanto? 5 A This was a spill on the plant site? 6 Q That *s correct. 7 A Yes, I don't recall a meeting about that. Apparently 8 no one called a meeting. 9 Q And no one reported to the EPA that a tank car that 10 was being filled and that is where the fifty gallons came from 11 or fifty barrels or whatever it was came from was from a tank 12 car that they were filling to be shipped out to a customer. 13 Nobody reported to the EPA that that tank car contained that 14 level of toxic substance, isn't that correct, sir? 15 A Not to my knowledge. 16 Q And now, and of course, your position is is that the 17 law doesn't require you to report that to the EPA, isn't that 18 correct, sir? 19 A That would be my interpretation of Section 8(e). 20 Q And that's the interpretation that Monsanto insofar 21 as that part of Monsanto that you have any connection with has 22 been following, isn't that correct, sir? 23 A Except that we have considered some matters that I .' 24 think would go beyond my interpretation of 8(e). 147  ,,, * . . . , -K * \ V ' / .r -V , - A A*'A'A Q -You considered it, but you didn't'report it;/Ahd^. - \ - n A A v *'A : A A ; - - *"": A . A f " again,, K r * Park, I insist considering it is hot quivalent -to ( i* ,1*. ' . ' 1 *" ' i - / jf .Vi 1f , reporting it, is it, /sir? - \V,0f A ; Not the equivalent* -But it was not reported becauek ,, . *V ` ' ' ' ' '` ' ` - `T 1 " ' *4'-- , ; ' 1. , * ' ' i , ' ^ P ' . it was felt there was no V;;. ; - \r substantial'risk* of injury ` % . r `-.v . .. to health' y %>. ' /' ' ; , ,, .. ' 1 - - ' " V. L \ 1 or the environment* L ' , '- \ ' : f.\->i\ *itrir"v0''hK ' ' \.V A . JQ * A And up to V A ' ' '' ,/V V;/: fifty percent;'of the ':A tank V 1A & Y 1'. r -containing^ ^ \ rhv^ r -.>r 2,3,7,8,TCDD'would not .be. any substantial r i s k <to the \ A ^ environment or. to the health of others? `..V . .--v- `'c " t A I don't know, 'that . - - ' * would be a consideration /- v- . '* -fV*or.-`"i.`lt .;v V* Or . ``> ' - - 1,-: " ., : . ^ -f / l, Q ' .Well, isn't that what you-said. .You-'are n o t -'I*"} . required to report it even if it's got, fifty percent/2 , 3,7#8;^ ,1\ ^ a.* V ^ ^ \ '^'r` TCDD, Mr. Park?f,I c a n 't understand, you said bn the\one/hand ! r you didn1t ;report it because it didn't contain high enough/ / *>k levels to .be hazardous,'to the health, but on the other hand, , . k/-` \ ,. .-V^ , /O r :VV': and I take it you are. saying that you. are required to- report it if i t .does contain,such 'levels ,/it obviously^ follows , ydu /i ;'*-r,r*'." .said you didn^t report;it because, it .did not contain thoser ,/- '* * 1 1 * >. . - * t\ ^ 1 ip * * ' " * ^ ' , r * O r. 7 1 i / k i " * t. ' j- i * * vf * AV. *- L * * i u * ** * r *" f L i* 11 _ t' ^L '^ * 1 *' J *! levels.1 M r ;/Park, d o n '1 1y o u ;see, .a v,certain inconsistency *in /' . - *'P'*/ * .,j. r * ' " 1.0 f f i j. . contain" fifty .pe r c e n t 1of 2,3,7,8"TCDD. You said the-/law '0./O'. r -^i t /a'v - L ` ` doesn' t' require you .to ^report It, But yet you gave as'a:' ^,0 .' . . ', y , ' *L- . ii .. . 1. i - _* ;'t justification.for not- reporting these others that it wasn't a -t *r - ^ \ ^4j 1^-'' * r ' ' ... r . ^ h ^ l1 H j 1 high enough level to have injurious or serious health effects.J 2 Do you see an inconsistency in what you are saying, Mr. Park? 3 A No, Mr. Carr. One is my own interpretation of the 4 statute. The other is we consider matters and I think we 5 would as a company, be inclined to go beyond what the statute 6 would require in some instances where our people might feel 7 that a situation presented a substantial risk of injury to 8 health or the environment. And that was the conclusion, that 9 was what was discussed at these 8(e) meetings. 10 Q And, Mr. Park, that's exactly what was discussed 11 because you know the law is is that you are required to report 12 it. You had those meetings, not because you wanted to pass 13 the time of day. You had these notes come up from people as 14 to how to change your reports and what to do and what to say. 15 You had all of those things because you know for certainty 16 that if the tank car contained injurious levels of toxic 17 substances, injurious to the health of others, the law require! 18 you to report it. You know that for a fact, don't you, sir? 19 A The way you phrase the question, Mr. Carr, no. 20 Q Mr. Park, if X understand you correctly then, you 21 don't need to report a tank car that contains fifty percent`j # 22 Of 2,3,7,8 TCDD? 23 A With only that section 8(e) would not require 24 reporting to the EPA. There may be other requirements you see 149 l .... & * ' ' - ' '. *;*,.* . "-` , 1 ; t11'7' ' ' ' ' '. ^ ' ' V '* ^ ... L elsewhere.' *1* *.. \ . . " 1 . ,' s * -k ' ..f ,7> vr*/- ,-w * ^ . t ?. r ; ,2' Q , Well, why riot> .Mr , P a r k ? 1 / l.: "* > ,'*' ; ` -r`- -v \V 3' .A : It *s. just not Co;ve-red by /tXhe; ;--r-.-*< ^ ,''fJ'- **T \ 1 114 ' ' -i ^ ,' '" ' T .> t A * . * 4 * Q., ` But ray question is. why not', H r . Park? { / 5' J 6. ; 7v'' ,-8; - A It's, unless, there is no-new health effects, . ! ^ y[;1ilf assume Q We*re back toi new "health, effects then? " - i ; . ,. . * -' - , , a ') . 1 . ' 4 . t ", ' , , ; A' \\'YsT , > - `- '-L.' : V 'i %.' ? r. I ' M - vv- .A , . *:-t > * l.'* 'a 9: \ Q 1/ ,-Then' y o u .are saying that you don't, have, to, reporty, t m T*'*1>" > 1 > hazardous levels of a toxic substance because; those toxic vVif-f r' xil 12 13 14 15 y\6 J 1l 17 . substances =don 't .present.a new health effect We:fxe back to 1 r / : . z' * ,a, , /. - ' r1 \ . . " '* ' (' ' . t ,f .1 `" ` t ' ; t i ' 'that again,;-1'aren'Jt' you..? :' 1 - . , ; ^' * *': *, , , L^ t \ ' 1h " ` ' ' "i, J A Voufreasaying^hazardous substances as opposed to . ; ; /''y'.'y r' --.V " ' the 'substantial risk-of injury. -* ` .-;Y * - /- y rr ,'-v ' !^ *'.* ,< ^.V-. -'y\ \ s r jV ,J;^ "'V* v' '' ^ Q O h , "h o , no, no, it is a substantial. -- ,half a tank .r, * * .^ . ; - , ; r , / * . o- - * j .. y ~ \ " i - L. ^ * 'i , ` , r car loaded with half 2 13/7,8 TCDD even by-your standard isV :_ more than.ohe^percent . . v does\present a substantial risk,* ' V `: r. ) 1 .'v> \ J `.8v; of injury,,to`the1peopXe,;that may be exposed to;.itV,doesn't it,' PEN G * 0 C O ,! B *T O N N E ," N . J . , 0 7 0 0 1 , FONM I L . 2 4 I 19 . 21. ; 22'. 23 `>24 Sir?*' > . * -j , ;'I.-1' T,.-. * " '' k .'> ~ , J " ;T'" ! -,\T &.-/' .' V v1 / 7 '. ;vvyt,/,i^jn, ^-:v:* ? *>*'VVi,T ,:v`: 5* ' *,' ^ ''' \ ,A/V ^Ih' that**event1we would report it; t/-- * ^ y /' Q 1 My.'question-is does the law, require-you foreport,:irttii : *. `A . The, law is jju s t ,simply :is not clear,. Mr. C a r r r5 " ' 1 ' '' . - '';`r`V" `.-t '-,1 , ^ ;` * J 'V ^ '* * 1 '( , ' '' . ' /' * ,, - Z , . j. > v- Q - My question is'.does ,the law,, require you, to ;rep'ort,'.^ 'y ~ `" j I . . ' - . . I '' ' *'^ :> ,V` ` s''` it, Mrr.- `Park/??.'..' * '":i \,'1 1 * .. <*: '. . * . i - . . 9 * <* /r J . k. . ' .v \r 'fi''. . . - ' - ' -v .' 150 - 5.' " ' J '. - .' X '<'n. . '.a ` r*'.- - r .. 1 A I think the policy would not -- u 2 Q I am not asking you that, sir. Does the law require 3 you to report it? 4 A If it presents a substantial risk of injury to health 5 or the environment in my opinion the law would. 6 Q And does a tank car loaded with fifty percent 7 2.3.7.8 present a substantial risk? 8 A I couldn't say. 9 Q You can't say that, sir? 10 A Out of context. 11 Q A tank car loaded with santophens that has fifty 12 percent 2,3,7,8 TCDD, does it represent a substantial risk 13 to the injury of the children that's going to put the santophei 14 washed things in their mouth? 15 A This would be a question for a medical expert. 16 Q I understand that, sir. But are you saying that 17 it does not present a substantial risk? 18 A No. 19 Q Then if a tank car is loaded with fifty percent 20 2.3.7.8 TCDD, then it does present a substantial risk to the 21 public, doesn't it, sir? 22 A This would be a question for -- 23 Q My question is does it, sir? r- . * s. 24 A I don't know. It depends on the context. - 151 ,.,v l" i-: 5 *.*' ` fir.. .*. y.*iY.irv Vft . !. <L " `^ Q You don't- know; t h a t / s i r ? -v* > ; r ; V , ,:r y v : - : - ; ; !, . - -/ ' r - \ U ? . .y ,v - .' `A ' I .couldn't say just' sitting here, n o , i ud o n 11 knqv'V.: ' ' " / ' l ` : /. .'. *** ' /y ; t >i J . J.'. ,'V y V s V that a tank car- sotting-still, presents a substantial risk .off' v y y, ;y y , _ . -. y ;y ;n. ; ,/ y ' y , . y.y-y -.injury.";- IJthink other'-facts would -h a v e ,to be considered >/ -5- "6 1 . 7;- - *7;r ,8: -i ./ 9. 10 , "- / ", *, . ` 7 *'P ' ., ' -M;i\ `A/*** K . ' M - ; ,Carr.j\. ''-y / .. yA; /-v - ' '-'A 1. ' Jt it r '**' ' - r1 * 1 " ' * ' >*" '( r J " if i t J , ",, \ N j' \ ` -if': \ Q ,, tvhat if. it's got ninety-five percent 2V3,7,8 TCDD r ...... i 'i ' ' i*r- . i' - -T, ^ ! *V. - "- .. ... { , r , - . j 'f , v * ' 0 . . . 1. }. ` * , . - ^k _- \ . . . '* i- ` '. j . ix"nr i t f going' on its' way to hehn arid-FinkVto-be1incorporated; ' - ; . v;,v -' .t' ^ 'I.: ' -* - v -- : * : inl-santophen? ` ''A ` "cr- r- r : ^ v^.v .A l /,'*. . j; y'<.;ry-f ; " vv/W.y.: " ..5- ^ ` :, A : - - * M r . Carr / `these re questions for' medical experts y., . yyyA, , '0 y; *;. , - 1 *_y ;v. 'T^-'_ ', / toxicologists, chemists','and. so forth; ' J ,; ..-At C. -- ' , ' ' uV k. 12 :'V 1 3 ' -, , > . ^ -. i, r '> , _---T ^ ^ 1 . - -' > I * ` "i ` T 'V j e ` ' , " ' i ' ''.r ' '- C* * ` .'-'Q-*' I'lr..Prk,/thes-are, questions that have been asked.' '1'-'A.'' ' , ' y'V-','``-.''AV;.'v ' ' :'A. ,L- , ^V** A:'i ' you and .you- answer ed;;,yesterday M r . Musgrav with'no problem ^ A >i,vO;' J .^y.);.U \>; v / - '- '/ it ; A- jv / ,-v :-1' - '- -- . r- f ' r % ' t i r ,vin^arisver \to. `these"qestions `about -hazardous 'levels ',rv< f^ r- RENGAD C O ;, BAYO N N E. N .J. 07001 FORM IL 14 S ,` i 1 4 15. " a b o u t 'which; :you.,wouldyreport. or. wouidn 't report And now you t` ` t/ . . j, 1 *v < ? ' * > . 'l-'A - ; ' '%r' have a big.problem.A -The problem that-you have,-Mr'. Carr, is , .'V 16 ' that you know-that what you re saying simply isn't the- lav;. : r* ,\17;' : 18r- ' > ><,t - ,! * 19 t, 1 \ ..v . ; v/ - ' ,-A ' ,T ; ' ' A ' You `know/,that if (,a tank car poritainS ;levels'of -a'1toxic sub- A, i% A V i #- , t 1' v ,r r . j' J ^ j ' ^' *,, 1 ! j ^ M*m , ' v stance that can pose asubstantial risk t o t h e health of those S-1 t-Y : * j i > J, 1 ` ' " ' 4. ' . . people exposed to i t , you ."know the <-- Y ( r -J '-i >'**1.* j ' law requires syon '.to report A i S -. 20- , r\ V T2 I > *2i : -j ' t, P- ' . .' ' i^ * h' *, . *, ^ hV 'L r ^ a , 1 ' i a* '* - ^ , %\ , t1 .* J * . -it, don^t- ydu, sir? : 0 '* ` A Mr .'Carr, .this' i s . an -unreal" example. you ;;are g-io'vv;iniygv//.-AyV~***V'K'AA V* - ' v '-VV., L ' - '`'jS;..'- oie.- We woulii n o t 1ship-a tank-car like that. ' Vi**1A :A . t : 1 *J ' `- 1jr/`;!. :.- ; --.y y*;. y \ * "v - - . ' v ; t '2 3 MR; C A R R :. .Your Honor;,*would- you .direct /tlie witheaSv- - i * ** \\r 24 o ; .'y - s .y y-"'-- ` - ; ,L -to aarninsMwAevr*^the.question? ' **; -'j'* As. , J-s " * .* ;1 -. \ v . *, vr i - 152 ` . v; ' i. V 1 `-Virf *"V **' 1 THE COURTS Mr* P a r k , y o u h a v e t o a n s w e r t h e 2 question 3 A No, X don't know that, Mr. Carr. 4 Q (MR. CARR) Mr. Park, what if that tank car containing 5 that fifty percent TCDD spilled in a community, would you be 6 required then to report it, sir? 7 A I'd certainly want to hear what our expert said on 8 that. 9 Q My question is would your interpretation of the law 10 lead you to the conclusion that you would be required to repo: 11 that spillage of a tank car containing fifty percent 2,3,7,8 12 TCDD in a community? 13 A If that situation woula present a substantial risk 14 of injury to health or the environment, and it was -- I guess IS that would come right unaer our Section C that we discussed 16 earlier, Mr. Carr. 17 Q And you would be required to report it? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q So if this tank car on the way to Lehn and Fink 20 containing fifty percent 2,3,7,5 TCDD spills in a community, 21 and of course, firemen and everybody else is going to be out 22 there to clean it up and everybody is going to be notified, 23 and they are going to get the people to dig the dirt up, if 24 that spills in the community you are required to notify the 153 EPA according, to your interpretation 'of the a c t ,-is that ,/ ;> u -i , * t < p- ^ correct^ Mr* Park? , ,- i ; ; % 5 ,J */*: ' " u'^ .4'^ 3 ' "-1 * ". " ' V 'l\ V '' n '. ' ' 1 .1-'/ /'V^; Vj _ A. . If it p r e e e n t s a s u b s t a n t i a l risk of injury .to; V* - ; r '-S'v ` \ - *' health or the environment* .'s r7 "i. v MR*, CARR: Your Honor', would y o u `Direct the-witnss to answer t h e ,question? t\ t \ / THE COURT; Park,/answerTthe question.. - V f*. -v * ' * J, -L , 'f L /?v% /'/?A'.f;'iiAs^youi phrased* the^question/ n o . V ` ,r \ r " - *. m V-J r;v-o' --;.v..y .*.!}. . , , ; Q , I s `that correct# sir?'' '/ v - , , -. ' J.-t,W' ^ .*1'>, is--') r\-i-'-'^i nu r '1,`'V-:-.'V J!`.j.L- 1 , ' A * y $As .you have' phrased,the question,- n o . - . " A*' -...M.' .-7 " i - V u* -W ' ,, *.y,y , ;* S ,v;l/'i .',.Qi _ fv'l-.iv*,'t)h'e/'i` tank >.c 'cta"r'rsp?il*l\'*.s-`->ih `t*'hJe\' v*.'e'r.y,.center^F'of B/*e',lle'/J --i ville, half a block from this'courthouse, and it"contains / - fifty percent .2,3,7,8 TCDD,'w o u l d y o u be required.to report it to the EPA, \s'ir?:V / ; */-* ^ *, *- 5[ .. ` ; * *'it' ` 'i, ` V '* * .' ' A And i t .presents a substantial-risk of injury .to ;; >- health or- the^ environment^ .that1e .a required part; of the;!. !/ ' 8(e) reporting obligation.- m ^ ^ J- '* ' .r. , 'i < * ,>* t\'i i' v ' ; Q Oh, I 'understand -that. ,And your committee -undert .v ' ^ \ ' \\ ' <*' '/ J r'\" v*. stands that,* everybody understands that, Mrl; Park `^My (^uestior r* . - ' - -*' . *" I,fiy". >'s ^' . is would you be required to report it to .the EPA'. :'Halfra\blocl< V'- from the.courthouse here. OVW'1 ' A : " If it does present that substantial risk;; the answer' '' ' would be yes ^ under Section C of the policy'/; , <,*i;.`y \*/v-vJ .rS'-f-^". S/. . '' * 1 ^ ' \ 'j * ,.* * - \ t. .* r ( ii , Q Now, .if .that-tank car, the same'.tank car with the' '-'Y' '.Trr-,v T \ ; - i .;. -' . , r V - , ..- some things applying, to. iiit.'-, vi.fJ,:;'il'jtl>igi<o'es tVo Leihria-rid F-ink,, \ity tr .. . ' - ' - ` '` V' 7' ..`.. .. , ' *7\ yy. 7 ^ V 'L d i d n 't spill in Bell'eyille, tit went; through Sauget .and past : s ; 7 7 , ;; v >7 " 7 7 7 ,/ ,. 7 y '**?,>* t h e t r a c k s r i g h t her thro* or four blocks from the; courthouse* S o u th .I l l i n o i s rand i t r',1 d id n 1t s p ill,/ i t d id n 11 d e r a i l ; / `V -1" th e re * ,, ,J:yy. * . 'V :- ' W V'/'W 1- ^ w a s n 't a n y th in g w ro n g , a n d ,;it g o t to Lehn and F in k i and you ' ;i k7 Pi - ' ' : -I' - -C 7 v.7 A ( Section ;8 ( e)would-not require notification, VS-''-.'. "fl"'."* 7; j : v 7 .i ' - >Q , . . ` .S o i. * All right. vNow,'`'for-- a certainty,'i~ that tank car .'i> ` 1.spills' , . in B 7. e : l l -j e'v^i* l'l e , j fora , T-r *c*'*er-rt a in wr, t*y/t1i tw it i o u r l d* be y- r o pt **ev,*-d- o ff; *r y; `` 1 , and children wouldn't be allowed to play, in it, andt h e y " w o ul d y r.yv d o something, about cleaning up, however haphazardly they ^ \ would clean it u p , and they would try to "prevent exposure, { 'k '1 ' ^' P "f 1- ^ L 1 r . 4 * wouldn't they, sir? 1T . *` 'J J '" M. ** p f j( ` - '/ ~i K -ii But also for a certainty,vif that tanlc /4'j car didn't' spill and it got to Lehn and Fink", they would , L n , r\^ v i7:> ,r ^\ r'; incorporate' fifty percent 2,3,7,8*T C D D *in their Lysol house-: 7 ,* * -'V -77-*v' V"\t \ -:V'- ;v"'r,i ` r'- v/ ` * wives would,use it, ,it's; two percent -- no, five' percent . fHt ;v ^ t santophen, or its derivative, housewives would use it, and ^ they would be washing their children's bassinets. with -it,>\v. * ('a**' * they would be scrubbing ^ `floor/;they would do all kindsvof4)' *-`y .7 -;. v 7-.'"' '.* -r things ^w i t h ,that, and some, housewives ;you ^k n o w , they- think 7i^: d : ' \ *V, ^-1 L.*% :*:.P ..he-lps no't, *to.w<ash' it-j .o,ff with water,.-/'*ffhey;*think it_vh;elps''-r,t*o .. V'*- y .7- /. ' "* .-:'c;'fy7 leave it there,' that it will kill the germs bettoxTand lpager.77 7 J' ' i 7' t| i 4 `"l 7 7.1.*f . You know/that, don't you, sir? , ' J^T "* 1 : ' ' ; - . ' - ' , '\ ' ' ' "! - *' - 155 - 1 I, y. .- v - ', ' r*7 , ' ; y ; \X! 1 A No, I d o n 't. 2 Q Oh, you don't know that. All right. Well, some 3 housewives do that. You know for a certainty then under 4 those circumstances this fifty percent of 2,3,7,8 TCDD is 5 going to enter everybody's home. And you say that you are 6 not required to notify the EPA of that fact, sir? 7 A Mr. Carr, under the circumstances you described, 8 the first thing that would have been done would have been to 9 recall that -- car. 10 Q My question is are you required -- no, you haven't 11 recalled the car. My question is, sir, are you required to 12 notify the EPA if you are going to put that product in commerc 13 A You've made a -- 14 Q It left the plant, sir. You are going to put it in 15 commerce. Are you required to notify the EPA? 16 A The shipments of toxic substances made every day 17 around the country that the EPA is -- 18 MR. CARR: Your Honor, would you direct the witness 19 to answer the question. 20 THE COURT: Mr. Park, answer the question. 21 A Section 8(e) would not require that the EPA be 22 informed in my opinion. 23 Q Now, do you see a certain inconsistency in that 24 interpretation, Mr. Park? You are required to notify the EPA 156 ,K M'r. ^ , Ti * .-*'- .' ' , -v ,;v .v- W' ;ii7 "4 ' '* if it < ' ' .^` * . ,4 * ' ! ' 1. * .. 1 "7 f 'j" i l- ,,0 ,1 .Y ^ . * 1. , - V ' . .V V s p i l l s i n .B e l l e v i l l e and g e ts /C le a n e d * * *1 ^ > h 1 * * 1 f\ ` I ,1 IS . M L- J. *- Y \ . u p and g o in g s t o <fi ..'.r*.J' .r / 2\r:: g e t c le a n e d u p ,' b u t t h e l a w f o ir 4som e s t r a n g e ''rea'Gpn/^doosh^tJ.^.V.: , - ' . k ' f r. 5 ^ rJ,- 'i' J 3' * r e q u ir e .vy o u / t 6 ^ n o t i y 5th e ^ EP A o f t t h e g r e a t e r d a n g e rs Do y o u v v.: cW;-*'.1;iVU ' ri'V'i,';vKvt ''/" r'--ki'r `-L ' . l,.r,' -,'v.,' y-T' '; `s. ^ iv-'1. 4 - ] ' *,' 5 , r ^ see a o e r t a in in c o n e ia t a n o y in y o u r in t e r p r e t a t io n o th e > la w , i,t(* ^ r^ 1 \JS v P ark?'' u 1vi ` 1 if ^ ` * *! >-*'&.k*>r'- *- J . /' * ." T* i ` ,"*:v.;^J,.,,* 'I 1 ' iV`.'* jv.h' '/ ,'fjv;'6. ; ; .,-A ; No, I don^tr Mr. C^irre ''-v:'r-;. \ ! Lv i: :';7 * } V,'. 1 i*.J f,^," !> <. '"i**"', v, .t "" 1V`Vi- .v ' 10 Q All right*: And it. is that intarpretation of the lawi *, r ' r .. r ' * T" ;" ` 'n l l / ! / ' , T! ` J ` `/ J '` that has- bee'n, -igu'`i"dLi'`n.g` you .an'd`y o u y~ haZ'v1;e/'J-.bjr''fe-ve-n g'ui`d.-i!*n"g ;the '.-1-:,^ * , K ' ' W'\ 'll*'* '*1/ ,committee. ' And: that is the reason that your:committee' has- .' :: -r' % - ' , ` t ,/-, , . ; . - r<'- - -J1.^ -' I* r , ` ' r ", T ' j S . L. ,[ 'W < t >v .^ s ` . , 1 * ' . **." j J , never notified the EPA of these levels of dioxin in your : J r *.'"'i ; n /12 products, Isn't rthat correct;, sir?. *11^ 7. vA As you" phrase the question, no , it ' a n o t ,*Mr '- i`".7 r"t' "U r .Carr , < *. 13 ' Q. And why haven't you notified the EPA of these L ^ .. .14 ; -\ 15 :16 levels of dioxin in your products, Mr * Park? '.Because:they. . V- have not been notified. ,* s /* A V one reason would .be because no ;one hasVfelt these BA YO N N E. N .J:-; OTOOi FORM IL '2 4 B : 17* " 18 ' t t r -\ levels would preste-*nt 'a.-ny/ s.u.bs.t%ant.ia**l;-1r;ir-s,k of i.nj-ur-y >to\,jth*ea.lth o r `the environment; .; r;. v{' i~ {7 * **Y * , , 19. '/ '20 .21 v1' '-r 22 -' 'I2?3 ' `2 4 " We're back to that again,. But ve .know that a tank C.?* car with, fifty percent: of 2,3,7#8 TCDD does.represent' a .rrt .vi'5': X- <-t *J i substantial .risk, but yet you-have said you are not required:1.^ //.*S- ` ` to present it. Now, Mr,. Park, you can't have it both\Vays-; ;^lrf.j.,+n /. V,Ji ` *.<", L. If you .. --J V *, ' haven't, reported ->/% this / because'the , levels ' '"'v f ' ` areriVt y ,high/;V S * - -;/1. ' .,L, J' 1 *! ; tn'v--*--'1 '4j**.jV`Vv^'.T* enough, I deliberately, and that's the* reason you hav e n 't : * - 157 - '4 rf*t, '> J!*1 t ^*i n vi . 1 reported it, because the levels aren't high enough. That 2 means then at some level it will be high enough for you to 3 report, doesn't it, sir? 4 A I don't know. Mr. Carr -- 5 Q Mo, it doesn't? 6 A We're back to the -- 7 Q Then why haven't you reported the dioxin content 8 of these products to the PA, sir? 9 A I repeat, 1 answered the question a moment ago, Mr. 10 Carr. 11 Q Because you said the levels weren't high enough is 12 what you said. Isn't that correct, sir? Is fifty percent -- 13 A I did not say that, Mr. Carr. 14 Q Would you read his answer back, Sandy, please? 15 (Whereupon the answer was read back by the reporter 16 as requested.) 17 A That's different. 18 Q Do you recall you said that, sir? 19 A You said because the levels of contaminants weren't 20 high enough. And that's not what I said, Mr. Carr. I said 21 because no one felt that any of these situations presented a 22 substantial risk of injury to health or the environment. And 23 there is a substantial difference. 24 Q And that's because the levels aren't high enough. 158 1 A That could play a role in it. 2 Q Is that because the levels aren't high enough? 3 A I wouldn't say that, Mr. Carr, no. ^ /; 4 Q Well, why didn't you report these levels of dioxin 5 contaminant in the product to the EPA. You said because they 6 don't present a substantial risk to the health of the people, 7 did you not, sir? 8 A Yes. 9 U Why don't they present a substantial risk to the 10 health of the people, sir? 11 A We can look at the minutes of the meeting -- 12 Q Could you answer that question, Mr. Park? Why do no: 13 these dioxin contaminants in these products present a 14 substantial risk to the health of the people? 15 A I am trying to recall now, Mr. Carr, what the 16 discussions between the medical -- 17 Q Mr. Park, could you answer that question, please. 18 A Mr. Carr, this was a question that was -- 19 MR. MUSGRAVE: Mr. Carr, he's trying to answer the 20 question, he's trying to respond to it. 21 THE COURT: Overruled. It's not responsive. 22 A This was resolved by the toxicologists,the medical 23 experts and others of that sort. And, as Z recall, there were 24 several factors they considered. 159 -' r,, *'.-.-`V' *' : ^ \ { L f1"\i 1i,.>1.li'.i1-JV'i . . , ^.VIi ."f,;y^4; > s- > / - ---' V1 : ,,, 1 `2 3 4; /s' ' .6, '7 , t. v' ' i. . ` THE COURT: Mr* Park, you.have tp ansvier^;the`> ' /fi. . . -V- ` * 'V\ 1 ' - *, * v. * - * , ,,i - m . i _ \ i h) 1 \ question directly.L Go ahead .and answer/it'. v ,? - ?' > " "* v^r 1;,"4 / - V ' 'V ../;'i'/V'p,:-vv?;' A , Yes .Okay ' 1>/there *were several' factors >considered^ , .J - ' *'. ( ,. , - ' ' , 4 * h i ` V. f S' J 1*'* .'.."i ' ,/;-"-/// ';*.v > Q ,. ,We.re ione. o'f'tV:h^e>.f-a. c"tVors . the vle` vels of the.dioxin C;VJi ` ' V.-*- contaminant,.sir? , / v : .r * J-'> / , />' /:/ h . .That could .have ,been' one of the factors* / 'V 't ^ 4 -//rr , TJ *i f J # . - ,* *^ i J * t- t. ^ f n V, 1 ^- Q . . Hot'could?have been--- . ' . f<.' . *m` ^.r''/*' ' 8- Ta /.- I would assume.*'' ,,//' ' -** *' / 'V , 9 Q , You have discussed i t 'atesme length'at ali of^these / f1 10 /. 'v mei n A e ti s I * i4 ' n gn / r so -1/4."Vd'4/ii.d.i11yf"^ot;iui l -y n i a f:t" o4 t f rv*`* `sJ ,sir?e < v * O t < -r + f 'r*yV 4' - ' r< t` V-1V./ 0. 1 . , v''`/rt?-/.--! T . ii:- A -We did'* * . ,/i -1 ff'. . ~,`ti* 12, r. Q' ' Now,- is,one of the reasons you,didn't report it - r\ 13- because: the level wasn't high enough, sir?' -/ \ 14 //> - L; a' v; Vl'/ [-[y ' } '`:- A ' 1^ Mr. Carr, I am hot going to go that f a r . It i,was a X 'P E N G A O 'C O .. B A Y O N N E .-N .J. 'O O O J FORM I t 2 * "lS`\r 16;/ 17 -. `y r 18' 19 .substantial risk of: injury* T34 . , Q 'Well, high enough to pos a 1substantial risk of 1 . )! .injury? ` -/ . ;. , 1 . 4 . ' 1V ' :i-- --v> - . 1^ -V* /v ` 1 ., / .A *Q r Yes/' ijiy 1 'i , t It follows, doesn't it, sir, the levels.weren't /.*/ t( ' -T` .rn -20 .high enough to-pose - ' 1 - ---v-* V' ' a substantial ' risk of -y injury, isn'^t that / '' 'i -t .'.' i' . 1\ V --~;i 21 , ' correct^ s i r ? '/ / 1 * . W'* >22 r.- ; /; 1 *. ;^ - w*'. .' [ '.V- ' -li , ' * 1' ' .< , '-'.v*'.-s.r't ; .F,_, r ' T/i t k y v -y \ A Mr. Carr/ you Have'a 'long H a t there, I dOntt 'v >;tv;*'- / ft ^ - <,*' * - ' - b >.', t 23' v V. Q / 'Could you answer that question, Mr . Park?.J * ^ V J / " ; 4,, ' ' ' .';r'.4 . v ,*;** j '*'r, ' v.i,-- ' . -*/ . A -it waafir't, even conssiiddeered; on most, of those,. JMr, .Carr *^- > i....V'-''*-soVi vV'''.'" --" .** a i/* p i<'i-;>'?*,r*i"t-r..+`,\:V-/`*{'*"*,>\/vf ^ ' ` L< *`t1 6 0 r : 'O ; *0.. r-; <1 Q It wasn't considered on any of these, Mr. Park. 2 The ones you did consider you didn't report because the 3 levels weren't high enough, isn't that correct, sir? 4 A The conclusion was there was no substantial risk 5 of injury to health or the environment. 6 Q And why, sir? 7 A One of the reasons for that conclusion would be 8 that the levels of contaminants were not high enough. 9 Q All right. Then at a particular point, sir, you 10 understand the law to be if the level is high enough and 11 the other things being equal, if that high enough level is 12 going to cause a substantial risk of injury to the health and 13 the environment, then you know that you are required to report 14 it, aren't you, air? 15 A That is not my understanding of the law. F O R M >L 2 4 8 16 Q Well then, what did you just say, sir? B A Y O N N E , N .J . 0 7 0 0 2 17 A I just said wnat I think -- well, what the company 18 would do and go beyond the law, Mr. Carr. 19 U Oh, we're talking about the law, not what the 20 company would do. We're talking about whether or not you're 21 required by the PA to report it. 22 A A minute ago I thought you were talking about what 23 the company would do. If you are talking about what the 24 company is required to do, then there would be no Section,8(e) - 161 - report required, ' V`? ` ^ ^ - i fc^* **1 ,+ 1 T ^ * \ ./ ' ' Q Uo matter what the level of contaminant? r J 1 1 * "* ^ - "1 , w/ ' A <That's correct. ,,w Q And you did consider these levels though,; didn't you sir?' 'A That's what you stated. , V: \ Q WhJyithen, Mr, vPa'rk, are you requ-i,red to report *i,tS;,, if it spills in Belleville, but hot required to report it when it gets to the customer? A Because the policy statement so states in Section.C. Q And that is the policy that you go along with and _"j, t . ' when you consider it in these committee meetings, don!t you,': ,, ` ; V - < vV sir1? ^ ' , * '< 1 - '' ' w 1- r r j** *T - ,, A We do make reference to the policy statements, ^ V`,J \ '. : ' !1 `- ' ,. v~* '* v Q '. And your committee then pays no attention as .far as the law is! concerned about reporting these contaminants to the EPA. Those things that you consider at every meeting that' you considered, you considered the nature of the contaminant, Dr, Nair reported two hundred and fifty parts per ybillion was \ ' - 'v^.' . , ; / V-" '*. ',,t`> a hi.ggh' enough^ level to require reporting,'[ d i d n 11 she,' sirV; 7 ^f %t 1 , i t >i h / r 1* s ^ f *'.!>s"*f/"'i\1 v , *S ^ 1 \ , ~ the toxicologist, didn't she, sir? J 1j1 * ** >r* . f'' !v f r4 * a !:J' :She/suggestedireporting, yes. ;* ' '/> Q She. said two ^hundred'and fifty parts per billion of total dioxin is a high enough level to require reporting, didn' *<% . -' ' - 162 - 1 - * 1 she, sir? 2 MR. MUSGRAVE: Objection, Your Honor. This is a 3 mischaracterization of the document. 4 THE COURT: Overruled. 5 A 1 can't recall exactly how her memorandum read. 6 Q Well, why don't you refresh your memory, sir? 7 A All right. Do you have it there, Mr. Carr? 8 Q Give him 1296. She says on the first page, I have 9 taken the conservative approach to determine if the low levels 10 of dioxin found pose a health hazard, didn't she, sir? 11 A Y e s . 12 Q And then she determined that since the potential -- 13 and then she calculated how much they are going to absorb, 14 didn't she, sir, at an average of two hundred fifty parts per 15 billion? 16 A Yes, hypothetically. 17 U And then she said, 1 feel this information should 18 be submitted to EPA under Section 8(e) under TSCA, didn't she, 19 sir? 20 A Y e s . 21 Q And she was referring to the law, wasn't she, sir? 22 A Yes. 23 Q She wasn't referring to Monsanto policy, but sh e { 24 was referring to the law? 163 i 1 A That's correct. ; r '--JV-* 2 Q How, she was refuted, the allegations were refuted f ' , .*3 by Dr. hevinskas and what he said' was these levels don't p.oysev. 1 -** 4 a health, risk, didn't he, sir? > . -5- ..-i \V * 5 & - That's right., 6 Q . And so you didn't report them because you chose hot - 1 V* k 7 to follow Dr. Nair's suggestion that the level was high enough * 8 to be hazardous, and you didn't report them because you 9 adopted Dr. Levinakaa1 theory that the level wasn't high 10 enough to be hazardous, didn't you, sir? 11 A That's correct. ;'v 12 Q ' .Mow, so then, whether or not the level is high < 1 3 enough is indeed.a factor that would require you to report 14 it under the EPA? - ;' *' IS A Hr. Carr, in my opinion, that is not,a factor in 1 6 the law. Mow .1 do think the company would report if t h e " ' - 1 7 levels were high enough. f. 1 8 Q " , Was ;Dr. ,Nair considering the law or considering. , ~` , h - 1 > 1 9 company policy? ,. ^ -\ /r - - j- ^ l t '4 ' * i " -' j,, * l- 1*' ' * , t. t^ ^ 20 A She was considering reporting pursuant to the law.; - 21 Q And did anybody in any of these memos mention' t h-a t ' 22 .,/iv "->\ '. 'j,** ,1* the law doesn't require or did-you say your meeting ^nder 2 3 company policy, or did you say you're having a TSCA meeting?;'^ f* - ^ - * . * 2 4 A r The company, wants to be sure it is in fll compliancji i f f*t " - 164 - <-.V , . I;- 1; 2 3 4 '* 5" 6 7 - with the Q law. . " I understand - *- . ' ' V 1 * V : C .a " f'**'s' -;..**v1. vV f11'. ' .' .r \ r r ` > l < . ir'*>,y' lV*."Vj ' > '* i' Av (',p..!*- C s;,. v * that, Mr. Park, X have heard you say^ . 1 . \ L' - ^ ` ' 1 `- \ ,L'' /.`-./ K .1, that. But my question is were you making'these metirig/y y yv *' ' , * ' under j the ` ` -` requirements of the vy ' .` " .V , law or under company X > p v~ :' oli . c \ *, * y? S ,, iy XtV< *h' rT t if , . ?* yc V/* r i x* 1. * t . A The company ,policy is to conform to th " ' *i * * " jj of ;the law/^it1 b o t h y 1 .^ * i .va.n..s. **, S-k*'X'. 4Xw' v` Q ' '.And, the law is what you were considering, at theses --: '8 9 / 10 meetings, wasn't it, 'sir? ;L - ;^ `- J_ A ' ' That's right/ \\ ,~ " y y y \ 'y _ `. y' *1A Q Now' sir, at what level then would this tetrathai l h have to be contaminat e d t e f o r e you believe it has to be L ` _ '"y '^, .,^ , -1 j ( - l . * *T X `M * 12 r,' reported'to the BPA? \\ t 'r i * B A I;don *t know, M r ,Carr .jJ t \ /3- c ; ,, r-"i 1 4 *.fQ' Oh:,IV>:lfr.i P a-rvK i -yb c,atri,V*say a >hundred, p>eJrce'.nvt; b'ec-a'use 15 - '*4.' "F '1- *: t* J 1 '* t. '' ; .Tv - ,. <**'* * ; . - -t that's what you said in the past. : You said it could be.a; r>v-f-v ;vy. ..` /'r-'- 16 hundred percent 2,3,7,8,.TCDD. and the law doesn't' require you to report ait. ^f\ ) : -y fy/, %n u/t .i \ '4, 11jf ,-- * ' \ K`y *18 ..19 ' 20 21 ' _ 22_ A It would not be me, it would be our toxicologist, ,, --V <, or medical experta who would make that decision, :Mr/ Catr .. ^ / .v ' , f l' y ^ i. ` v - X , , / , v '; Q y T h e y .make it based upon the level of contaminant, /, '<1,*LV*. * ' a- d o n 't thy, sir? > t y -;`/V A , They would consider that and other factors.. j. . 23 '.24 t Q They make their decision based upon the level''pff4 `fv . \ lj**. * the toxic substance, don't they, sir? . * ' " *--S ` - 165 - ,c. fi*;' ` rL r'.* y 4 tV , % Jt * K PE NG A D CO*, B A Y O N N E , ' N*J. X ft I A It get down to exposure, as Dr. Nair -- 2 0 Yes, exposure to the level whether it's spilled in 3 the community, put in the mouth, it's exposure, isn't it, sir, 4 a baby's rattle in the mouth is exposure? 5 A Or inhaled or whatever, whatever the exposure is. 6 Q That's correct. So you do consider the level and 7 you consider the exposure, don't you, sir? 8 A Exposure reduced by -- 9 Q And the levels are high enough, you know the law 10 requires you to report it, don't you, sir? 11 A Mr. Carr, we've been over this any number of times. 12 It's my opinion, it's my interpretation of the law, that it 13 would not require reporting based upon levels. I do feel that 14 the company would so report if levels were sufficiently high. 15 Q Mr. Park, did the toxicologist agree with you and 16 did you tell the toxicologist that, no, we don't have to 17 report it under the law regardless of the level? 18 A We have discussed that to some degree, and they tend 19 to lean on the, if you will, what the conservative -- in other 20 words, they want to error on the side of reporting particular! 21 if there is a substantial risk of injury. 22 Q Is it your policy then to report it if the levels 23 are high enough to pose a substantial risk of injury? 24 A I think, yes. i * 166 I Q And i f t h a t 's so th e n , M r. P ark , and t h a t 's th e 2 policy you have established under the law, why haven't you 3 reported these levels, all of which are factors, some of them 4 ten times higher 5 A First, Mr. Carr -- 6 Q Some of them twenty times higher than the two hundre 7 fifty parts per billion. 8 A It's not a policy. 9 Q Oh, I thought you said it was? 10 A I'm sorry. I didn't mean to. 11 Q But you did. In fact, it's the law that we are 12 talking about, isn't it, sir, not Monsanto policy? 13 A I thought you were talking about what I thought 14 Monsanto would do. Are we back to what I feel the law re< 15 again? 16 Q No, Mr. Park, we are apparently back to the point 17 where you would be willing to agree that the law requires you 18 to report a spill in Belleville, but doesn't require you to 19 report it when it's in the product that you ship out to your 20 customers. And if you are satisfied that that's the way you 21 want this jury to believe that law is interpreted by Monsanto, 22 I'll leave it at that. If you're satisfied with that. 23 A Mr. Carr -- 24 Q Are you satisfied with that, Mr. Park? - 167 - 1 A We a r e t a l k i n g o n ly a b o u t S e c t i o n 8 (e ) o f t h e la w ? `tj 2 Q That1 what we're talking about, sir. 3 A It's my interpretation that that law would not -- 4 Q My question is are you satisfied with that, that you 5 are not required by the law to report it if it goes into the 6 household or may go into the household, but you are required 7 to report it if it spills in the street. 8 A As you phrase the question, my answer is yes. 9 Q And that policy carries over to your customers, to 10 Lehn and Fink as well, doesn't it, sir? 11 A NO. 12 Q You don't report it to Lehn and Fink, either, do 13 you, sir? 14 A I would certainly think we would, yes. 15 Q You would certainly think you would, yes? 16 A Yes 17 Q Mr. Park, would it surprise you if I were to tell 18 you that you don't report it to Lehn and Fink? 19 A We have never had a tank car with that much 2,3,7,8, 20 Mr. Carr. 21 0 Well, you're talking about fifty percent? 22 A That's what you said, I believe. 23 Q What about the levels shown in the exhibit here, 24 ten thousand five hundred parts per billion for santophen? 168 I How a b o u t th o s e l e v e l s ? 2 A Mr. Carr, I don't know. You had me run through 3 that chart. I don't know who prepared -- I assume you 4 prepared that chart. 5 Q Yes, 1 did. 6 A And you pulled some of the information from several 7 different sources. 8 Q And I showed you the exhibit for each of those 9 items of information, all exhibits in evidence, you remember 10 that, don't you, sir? If it wasn't on the exhibit, then I 11 got corrected here. 1 had some wrong numbers on one line and 12 I got corrected, you recall that, don't you, sir? 13 A But I am not familiar, Mr. Carr, with the degree 14 to which customers may have been contacted or what. 15 Q Are you familiar with whether or not your policy 16 that you would notify your customers about dioxin whether or 17 not it is carried over to Lehn and Fink? 18 A Which policy is that, Mr. Carr? 19 Q That you would notify your customers of these levels 20 A Which levels? 21 Q Any levels, Mr. Park. Or is your policy in effect 22 that you will not report to anybody, not the EPA, not the 23 news media, not the public, not the worker, not the customer, 24 not the people in Sturgeon, not anybody, that your product - 169 - *' PENGAD CO., BAVONNE. n .j . 07001' .i K.v 7 ' 1 * *A 1 contains dioxins? . 2 .A Of. course not* 'V; 'it ,/?/1, ,Xj * - -^vafai'1ff '; , - .f 'V i -7 ., :, r s ...vv.^. 3 i, J4 vr- of . .Well, 'can you tell ,me-a h 'instance, sir, a single),, \ .. v f.1 " ^ ;V;^ ,Avv* ,y. A *;' ,."L = ..v;** y '1.* r- ^ - .y y V <4 t Instance* ,since'.January,- of 1979., when you reported to .a ; y * r sV; 6 7- 5 .customer,' other 'than a; ditect Inquiry from Diamond Shamrock i! - J ,*> 'jf* - y A >~ A i V . ,<, i ' ` , 'r - , ,v ^ A y . in 198l o r 1*82 / when you reported to a customer,/that your ' 1~ f ' f* t,, 1 . '^ K ' A 1"k ', , ' .'. ,v -l''v.." t `` , ^ v ,; ;'.product^contained dioxin? , y _ ,,r` , - '; , .y ~ .'A ' 8 y! 9, 7 10 ' A ; Mr. Carr, as I have! mentioned, I would not be aware of that. ;X do not deal with customers. .Other*attorneys do ;v / ,,at the company and other ^people; J; 'v; \ \iii.S1.! n. '' Q ( Don-t you think in'between the time I have been . 1` , - \ . -v , \ ^* . * Ji. 'h 1, ,L * J ' . 2j + j ' '- asking, those questions of not .just you,'but other,' witnesses, 1 3 / don't you think that if those letters were in exiotenc;e and 14 your lawyers" are'under court order to produce them to m e , - \ 1 5 ,don't, ybu' think. they .would have been produced by now: if the 16 -customers had-been notified? " < '.-* '* -1 J17 .18 " A l7 if wt-h.e`' le'tteltrs 1 shou^rl'vd,i,ha,ve b1ee1n1 ,p*ro-du*,cr/'e^*,d-,v,sj"X woul<d % assume;that*tKey wbuld. , .1,j . 19V Now do you know of; a single instance^ when?.the:Vi 'v.r ' :%y. 20 2 1 J'22-i- .23 1 24- workers were even told that they were b e i n g ,exposed. ,to dioxin, . ^ 'y, ' .`V-r.- .-/* -'S l* !. 1_;`V -' -(r . other than, the single ..time. when the. bulletin was^put out; that ** y , . f*. '`.-`i : ' ' A / .` -i:V y ',, r-;\ OSHA says dioxin is,, present, b u t ;we have never' detected it; -4 V v ^ k --t ^ v -- And thsre was/ auch a .bulletin. .Do you know of a L'.Sii-n;g.le- time'/ .*v . _ ' L y ,- 1 r *_k **t' `,-v vy ,when the workers have been told they were exposed to dioxin?^ 7 --`r 1 ' A - ' - 170 - - . j*'y1,ir.'-.M'`..i4/* \ ' : 1- -A..., A `. 1_ '*>. .1 2' 3 % ,' i 1 ' *5 ^ 6 ' 7- .i *' ' 8/ '9 v io. 11 ( <J ` 1 12. ;Vi* . V* . r. . V :`` W '. 77 007 :*7' . "VO"' 1 ^77'7'-' i i ' ; ' -:7 ' v -x ;V':v> -' V "* v r..., > j * I ^ ^j , r . 7 1* 7 'V -Mri `Carr"\mn not^relly qualified.on that. It r '*i.;7 n `] *o,'/,?> O;-" / 7 ,* cold; well have' been','don and I am not aware of it'. v* y- r'Q l77'iWeillV .,*S.',, - 7 do' you' helieve, that since Meonsanto is/under Y-tJf:*: / . ' i_ '* . 'V i- i r.;i J V,; .4.2, ^ ^ ,; ' ' : ; ,. orders ,tofproduce `these things to, me that I- might have , m:'{' J .* V,'-f . V ; - v . `'I'. .. v , ; -V- V> recei-ved tha. tt ^ tbul_leti-n'-whe r e''''t.h'e*y were " 1. ' n`o1ti'"fied' if r >s'u'ch5.-.i'.a- 1 ,bulletin were in existence? / !- / ^ ; f ; - v , J- J -* 5 * * ' r " - , *- t V- ,l* ' ^ - 1` ' ^ * ** \ j: \ 1 ^ " m USGRAVEis I objeot tb .that'. ^ |M , ^ ; . ' -'Qv X Your Honor? u \ (1 '* i "-. V* ^'**v r*..*.*V^**>^4 ' ' l l ' "' * * r h-, r u 1 v? I . <r_ : : * xL*r\ k -i!1 L THE COURTs, 'Overruled. *L ` ( .' - , ' 'l iv- ; -r -i ' O- 'V./ - ^ A- V, if we had ,been ordered.to,' provide 1that to y o u , I ,1- 4 LV kJ ' *' +" v 1 - r, j .r would assume that we would^ . ' S i * s' -* ., Jill ," T' ' ;. ,;L i *> > .' Q . But I don't have it, do I -- well, you don't know F O R M IL, 2 4 B P E N C A D C.. * B J k V O N N C . N-J. 0 7 0 0 1 13 ' I4 f ' *3 < J\.- 15 16 ; i?-' ' IS" l? " ' 20 21 ;, 22 ' : 23 . : 24 that, Mr.' Park. ' j v-' ' /. v-'.**-*s,r v ' 7; . " "* ,1 MR. MUSGRAVEi You asked him everything else that1 '' r, ' : > \\ : `r '-i; he ought toikhoW'about everybody else's mind, you might ' t *. -. ,' t . ' ' as well try,yours; M r .,Carr. %, ,`' 1- i . . ; t ' - yj\r flTHE COURT: ' Overruled . . Q -V {MR. ,CARR) ; Do you know of a single ,instance whore Monsanto;7 if"they a r e .n o t followihg your /policy> of;a :Single '*t -rV" *fJI y- I- V v instance/ where they have- notified the press or theNmedia that' thousands ,7 of parte, ` hundreds, thousands of parts ,:V J "v;i;.7/- 7 , pe^ bi llion C; ` '1' 7- .* >v V* of dioxin is in your products?^ ;`Can .you t h i n k ,of a single v; - > l -; ` ' `'.`'-rh - ' -''.*-V*'"*--J'*' . ,- . ,''7' ' 'V'' V . n instance now from the president,of your company' on down to the ' '/,, ' `' 5 '* J ij? '> . 1v% -*,7v:- "= r/.*V 1--,*1 plant manager or .'anybody else? - 7 . * ' , y t -y\ t. -;V' ' -1 7 1 ' % - 171 - "* * \y t ' t * :<* *** .l/i T'N -'SN HO Ava " 0 3 0V0N3A. /. i - At- ' , ( V3 ' ' 4'1 5 6 ,%/ '*7'>J *.8 . 9. ' ,1 0 - ;' ^r 11 > 12 ^ ' 13 i. f .1 4 . 1i5t' ` ;16^ > rk ' _ 17.:f, ;.-18/ 19 . t . 20 21 ` +p * 22 * - 'J 23- 24 `/ l y - 7= v>\ : * -' A f fVpV*-->>. Jf);-> * . ' ^ *- If 1! ' *' t *j */ / .... ^* 1 1 ,, ., t '** 1 f. ' ... tL *4 rf* 3^',/ pr- .* J \/ 1 1 v * * W A | fi -W ,- * 'i t r ) |U ^ ^ w n im\ i M * A t ` V s [ . ' U O v [.- ** a ' ~ *,.f ?,.a:`catri'11- recVa'lVl'v a'ny/''M r C-ar,r. > . ,~ . ' . .- **-i'.*v' *. ' f i , / i , - *. "'aVv* y <> ' if *' r 1 U- * ' ^ ^ "* * ,T ?THE COURT:' 1' M r .Carr, is this" a gopd.*poinb at which ; y f*. ** ,.'1' ' /' `, -,1 ., ^ `S * 1 ', ' .V ?'*CH^' ^ 1^ ,kto break? ` * ' ` '* - ' - --vj'."-;* M R . .CARR i 'Y e s , . ,Your Honor. ' V , 1i ,'**';* ,: \ j $HE..COURT ; I*adiesand gentlemen, we'll end testimony;1 ' , -" j_ J -pj < " * ' T t * ' A f-|'p : |' ^ for the day. At this jpoint in time and we'll resume i *T agaih tomorrow morning., I would remind you on the ,over-; night breaks, besides the regular admonishments, you are ,' * ` , .t , V ' not to read, listen to/ or watch anything about this case ih particular1or- about the. subject, matter in general in ; vl(, . , -v . " r/ 1v ` any of the media1./ Court is adjourned .' v ' ^Court,adjourned.for the d a y .) , ; \: f- . n . -n ''' , lV; r' i ,TM t * ,'ri 1 >,f'* 9 / ; J P^,o"r'ik V , ' - ''-''-f''>A*.-.;Vi tp iF t C- r J * * ' ' 1 L * K ** - * k } ^* .-`'*'V r A7*.y' - . . . r - 1 1 . : , * ' ' ^ .#- \ia 1 * -j v j 'y .i -yJk- *' , . -. J * 7 * - <. v .v - 1*j /' *, ,.-,<1*`;'Srv',i '\J.ys' 1;*f, *-v. *' .\ v . f* .*t*r `.S:1,,;, ... * < >; ' / **' y . w . ' . .I - A ' 1r .r :X/` - '172 - * 'r ^}' .. ir", '? :: . .i^ ' 1, . . * i** f j '>..*' ,-ir\ ^i / '' '; *r*V* 1 -, Vk |\ > .* a ' a '> * .1 V, ^ <" i *V. ^ - 1 Ap ^ f* * LV 1 STATE OF ILLINOIS 2 TWENTIETH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT ) 3 COUNTY OF ST. CLAIR 4 5 I, RICHARD P. GOLDENHERSH, Circuit Judge in and for the 6 Twentieth Judicial Circuit, do hereby certify that I have 7 examined the aforesaid transcript, and certify the foregoing 8 to be a true and accurate transcript of the testimony and 9 proceedings in the above styled cause. 10 11 Dated this day o f ___ _______________, 1985. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 174