Document 6wRNm9EbaEyYp4mkyjG2k3Jy4

Scott Trial Testimony August 26, 1987 Volume IV 5W 1 jury a copy of one of the documents that was 2 discuss at the close of the testimony 3 yesterday, Plaintiffs' Exhibit 196. We have 4 made copies of that document so that each 5 juror and the Court may have a copy of that. 6 THE COURT: You may do so. 7 MR. LACEY: Okay. The offer begins now 8 at Page 328, Line 14. 9 10 11 (Reading from video deposition) 12 Q Let me show you another document entitled "The 13 Proper Handling of Aroclor and their mixtures in 14 the Electrical Industry," Document 1967 through 15 2051 . 16 A I'm very familiar with that. 17 Q Okay. How are youfamiliar with that? 18 A Has my name on it. 19 Q Okay. Did you write it? 20 A I wrote it. 21 Q And what date did you write it? 22 A 12-1-54. 23 Q December 1st, 1954? 24 A Correct. 25 (End of reading) WATER PCB-SD0000000763 5BT 1 2 MR. LACEY: Going to Line 12. 3 4 (Reading from video deposition) 5 Q Now, what was the purpose of writing this 6 document on the proper handling of Aroclors and 7 their mixtures in the electrical industry? 8 A The purpose of this was to inform our 9 customers of the specifications of all these - 10 call them 'PCBs'. And you will note in here all 11 of the test procedures, as used at -- and 12 documented at the American Standards -- the ASTM. 13 So, it gives all of that in great detail. 14 For instance, here it gives great detail of the 15 procedure that is used in our own laboratories. 16 And it give detail of the procedures documented 17 ASTM out in the industry. And it goes into 18 detail, also, also on sampling methods. Then it 19 goes into such things as unloading of tank cars. 20 Now, I remember this: It was sort of 21 embarrassing. A man could come in -- would come 22 and buy his first tank car and it would be 23 shipped. And he would have go to the effort of 24 building an unloading dock to receive this thing, 25 and he built this dock -- would have built it to WATER PCB-SD0000000764 57 1 unload from the bottom where the tank cars 2 usually do unload. 3 Q And wouldn't even know enough to know how to 4 unload the car? 5 A Wouldn't know how to unload the car. Ours 6 unload through the top. Things like this. They 7 were intended, in detail, for our customers. 8 Q Okay. So -- 9 A -- of which there weren't many. 10 Q Okay. So, you'd provide a document like 11 that to General Electric and a document to 12 Westinghouse and a document to Allis-Chalmers - 13 A Exactly. 14 Q -- and those sorts of people? 15 A Exactly. 16 Q Let me look at that document with you for a 17 litt le bit just to go over the sorts of things 18 that are in it. It's got in here an index or 19 tabl e of contents -- 20 A Yes; 21 Q -- at the first, doesn't it? 22 A Uh-huh. * 23 Q And there it details with a lot of things 24 about what it's going to cover. For example, it 25 has a chapter on unloading tank cars? WATER PCB-SD0000000765 ITS"! 1 A Right. I saw that here somewhere, the tank 2 car unloading. All right. 3 Q 11 has a chapter on storage tanks? 4 A Right. We disclose the kind of storage 5 tanks we used. 6 Q Has a chapter on gas -- gasketing the pump 7 packing? 8 A Packing. Right. 9 Q Has an entire chapter on how to do a sample? 10 A Right. 11 Q An entire chapter on how do laboratory 12 analysis? 13 A Correct. 14 Q A chapter on the actual test procedures? 15 A Right. 16 Q A chapter on typical properties? 17 A Correct. 18 Q A chapter on earth treatment of Aroclor and 19 their mixtures? 20 A Right. 21 Q A chapter on dermatology and toxicology? 22 A Yes, sir. 23 (End of reading) 24 25 MR. LACEY: Going to Line 18. WATER PCB-SD0000000766 584 1 2 (Reading from video deposition) 3 Q The chapter on tank .cars, for example - 4 A Uh-huh. 5 Q -- starts off andit's got some have 6 specific directions on what to do, doesn't it? 7 A I would think so. 8 Q I mean, for example, it explains there are 9 either two or three -- 10 A Yes. . 11 Q -- connections on the top of the car? 12 A Right. 13 Q And exactly what size they are? 14 A It's very detailed. Right. 15 Q Exactly what pressures to use? 16 A And that information was given to me from 17 our plant. 18 Q Right. Even goes to the point Of explaining 19 that the car has got to be level and the brakes 20 have got to be set before you can unload it? 21 A We know this. 22 Q Okay. So, it's very detailed with regard to 23 that? 24 A It's very detailed. 25 Q All right. And that same sort of detail WATER PCB-SD0000000767 585 1 follows through the whole chapter, basically a 2 step-by-step how-to-do-it? 3 A Right. And that, I obtained from our plant. 4 Q Right. When we come to storage tanks - 5 A Same thing. 6 Q Same thing. Very detailed description of 7 storage tanks, exactly how they should be built, 8 exactly what materials to use and everything, 9 correct? 10 A Right. 11 Q Talks -- even has drawings on how to do it 12 and the exact sizes of the nozzles, doesn1t it? 13 A It sure does. 14 Q Okay. When we get to the chapter on 15 gasketing and pump packing, it describes -- 16 A A specific. 17 Q -- specific types of connect ions. Gives the 18 part number and the company you can get it from? 19 A That's the purpose of this. 20 Q Okay. The chapter on sampling methods, 21 again, is very specific on how you do it, is it 22 not? 23 That's correct. 24 (End of reading) 25 WATER PCB-SD0000000768 586 1 MR. LACEY: Going to Page 335, Line 3. 2 3 (Reading from video deposition) 4 Q Then it talks about the actual test 5 procedures. These are specific procedures to 6 make sure that the electrical properties have 7 been properly maintained? 8 (End of reading) 9 10 MR. MUSSLEWHITE: Excuse me. What 11 page? 12 MR. LACEY: 335. 13 MR. MUSSLEWHITE: There's no Page 335 14 here, sir. I'm sorry. I can't read it. 15 You will have to read it. 16 MR. LACEY: The answer is, "This is 17 correct." 18 Going to Page 336 -- 19 MR. MUSSLEWHITE: Okay. 20 MR. LACEY: Line 10? 21 MR. MUSSLEWHITE: Okay. 22 23 (Reading from video deposition) 24 Q In fact, in talking about the test 25 procedures here on Page 47, Document No. 2017, it WATER PCB-SD0000000769 SWT 1 expresses you should, quote, "Danger. Make sure 2 check knob is in the check position; otherwise, 3 painful shock will result," close quote. 4 A That's right. 5 (End of reading) 6 7 MR. LACEY: Going to Line 23. 8 9 (Reading from video deposition) 10 Q Talks at another poing on Page 48, No. 2018, 11 another caution. Talks about the 500 volt D.C. 12 charge and shock hazard that exists in handling 13 the apparatus, correct? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q The next page it observes again, underlined, 16 the possibility painful shock doesn't it? 17, A If you get a jolt of 500 volts -18 Q You'll know it, won't you? 19 A You'11 know it. 20 (End of reading) 21 22 MR. LACEY: Going to Page 338, Line 18 . 23 (Reading from video deposition) 24 Q Then we come to the chapter on dermatology 25 and toxicology. Now, did you write that chapter? WATER PCB-SD0000000770 588 1 A Well, this was given to me from the medical 2 department. 3 Q I see. 4 A I did not -- I don't know what you mean by 5 "write it. " Did I copy it down? Did I formulate 6 this? Did I decide what to put there? No. 7 Q Okay. 8 A I received this from the medical department. 9 I know exactly what is in here, and this is where 10 it came from. 11 Q Okay. Well, let me stop -- 12 A And -- oh, I'm sorry. 13 Q r'm sorry. Go ahead. You can tell me about 14 the medical. 15 A Well -- 16 Q I've got -- 17 A Well, here again in this area, talk to our 18 medical people. 19 Q Okay. 20 A I gave what I received. 21 Q Now, in the other chapters -- for example, 22 how to unload a tank car, you got that from your 23 plant people, correct? 24 A Yes, I did. 25 Q And it gave step-by-step what to do, just WATER PCB-SD0000000771 589 1 the way your plant people did it, correct? 2 A This is correct. 3 Q And on the storage tanks you got the 4 information there from your plant people and gave 5 step-by-step just how to handle the storage tank, 6 correct? 7 A This is right. 8 Q And on th'e section about laboratory 9 procedures, that came step-by-step from - 10 A Well, we went through the whole thing. 11 Q Yes. 12 A We're right on the entire thing there -- 13 Q Yes. 14 A -- that you're talkingabout. 15 Q Well, let me ask my question. Now, on the 16 laboratory procedures you went step-by-step just 17 the way Monsanto did it in the laboratory, 18 correct? 19 A And as it was done by others in the field, 20 industry, yes. 21 Q Okay. And the same thing with filtering the 22 Arodors through the earth -- step-by-step just 23 like Monsanto did it, correct? 24 A Yes. We already said all of these things. 25 Q I want to make sure that each set of WATER PCB-SD0000000772 590 1 directions were step-by-step just like Monsanto 2 did it themselves, correct? 3 A Yes, yes. 4 Q Now -- 5 A Okay. 6 q -- my question to you is: On the 7 dermatology and toxicology and safe handling, did 8 you set out there step-by-step in detail exactly 9 how PCBs were handled in Monsanto's plants? 10 A No. I went in accordance with what was 11 given to me by the medical department. 12 Q So, that is the only portion of this book 13 that doesn't give the step-by-step handling 14 procedures the same way Monsanto did it in their 15 plants; isn't that right? 16 A Oh, it doesn1t do this. This -- I have to 17 agree. I agree with you on this. 18 Q And every other portion of the book does 19 give the step-by-steps, doesn't it? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And the reason you put that in there is 22 because that is what the medical department gave 23 you to put in there? 24 A That's where it came from. 25 (End of reading) WATER PCB-SD0000000773 591 1 2 MR. LACEY: Going to Page 343, Line 1. 3 4 (Reading from video deposition) 5 Q And after you got that back and put the rest 6 of the book together, it was finally done and 7 then provided to customers, correct? 8 A This is correct." 9 (End of reading) 10 11 MR. LACEY: Going to Line 13. 12 13 (Reading from video deposition) 14 Q Mr. Benignus, let me show you Document 2052 15 through 2138 and ask you if this isn't an updated 16 version of your work on the proper handling of 17 Aroclors and their mixtures in electrical 18 industry? 19 A That is. 20 Q And this work follows the format of the 21 original in that it has all of the detailed 22 information in each chapter on the specific 23 Monsanto procedures for doing everything, with 24 the exception of the -- not having the specific 25 detailed procedures on exactly how Monsanto WATER PCB-SD0000000774 3TT 1 handles PCBs in their plant units; is that 2 correct? 3 A That's the way it reads. 4Q Okay. And then let me show you -- by the 5 way, what was th e date of that update? 6 A ' 56. 7Q Okay. And why did you produce an updated 8 version in 1956? 9 A We ran out. 10 (End of reading) 11 12 MR. LACEY: Going to Line 13. 13 14 (Reading from video deposition) 15 Q Now, let me show you another Document, 2139 16 through 2252, and ask you if this is a 1960 17 update of your previous work, entitled "The 18 Proper Handling of Aroclors and their Mixtures in 19 the Electrical Industry"? 20 A Yes, it is. 21 Q And was that printed because the 1956 22 edition had run out? 23 A Sad to say, yes. 24 Q You had a popular work there? 25 A It dumb-founded me, really. WATER PCB-SD0000000775 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------577 1 Q How many copies of this thing do you think 2 you got distributed between 1952 and 1956 and 3 1960? 4 A I don't know. 5 Q Quite a few of them? 6 A Quite a few. 7 (End of reading) 8 9 MR. LACEYs Going to Page 350, Line 15 . 10 11 (Reading from video deposition) 12 Q Now, and again, this 1960 version, like the 13 previous two versions, had all the detailed 14 information about exactly how Monsanto did each 15 step in every chapter except dermatology and 16 toxicology, correct? 17 A This is correct. 18 Q Okay. And in that chapter on dermatology 19 and toxicology, what was supplied was the 20 information the medical department gave to you to 21 include in this work? 22 A That's the information that was available to 23 me, correct. 24 (End of reading) 25 WATER PCB-SD0000000776 5M 1 MR. LACEY: Going to Line 9. 2 3 (Reading from video deposition) 4 Q Let me ask you a couple of questions about 5 some of the material in that section on 6 dermatology and toxicology. 7 A All right. 8 Q I think that the language remains relatively 9 constant through all three versions. 10 A It does. 11 (End of reading) 12 13 MR. LACEY: Going to Page 360, Line 13. 14 15 (Reading from video deposition) 16 Q Some of the transformer fluids had a mixture 17 of PCBs and chlorinated benzene; is that correct? 18 A This is correct. 19 Q And that is why you referenced chlorinated 20 benzene? 21 A This is correct. 22 (End of reading) 23 24 MR. LACEY: Going to Page 37 9 , Line 9. 25 WATER PCB-SD0000000777 595 1 (Reading from video deposition) 2 Q Well, what about when you visited the 3 LaSalle, Illinois, Electric Utilities capacitor 4 plant? Did you go out into the area where 5 capacitors were being made? 6 A I was there in area where capacitors were 7 being made, yes. I've been there. 8 Q Did you observe anything that caused you any 9 concern about the way they were handling PCBs? 10 A I felt that their ventilation may not have 11 been all that it should be, but I wasn't there to 12 call" -- "there to call their or anything else. 13 Q Did you see -- 14 A I could smell more Aroclor there at that 15 point in time than I wouId have expected to. You 16 realize, don't you, that you can smell Aroclor? 17 It's not without detectable odor. 18 Q What does Aroclor smell like? 19 Aroclor has clean odor , is the best I can 20 describe this to you -- a c lean odor. It has no 21 odor as perfumes or flowers or anything 1 ike 22 that. 23 You wouldn't use it as perfume? 24 No, doesn't it doesn't impart that k ind of 25 delicate odor. Aroclor doesn't smell bad. It WATER PCB-SD0000000778 1 smells clean. May I say 1 clean odor'? 2 Q This is new Aroclor? 3 A It's -- let me say it this way: The nearest 4 I can say that might be familiar to you is if you 5 go into the washroom in a public place and you 6 smell the naphthalene, okay? In other words, the 7 disinfectant. It's not an odor that upsets one. 8 It's a clean odor. And it's not a strong odor at 9 normal temper atures. 10 Q This is -- this is fresh Aroclor? 11 A Well, I don't know what you mean by 1 fresh, 12 Aroclor.1 13 Q Unused. 14 A I'd say unused -- I'd say -- unused? 15 Q Yes? 16 A That's true of unused; and it's true of 17 used, too. 18 Q So, even Aroclor in a failed transformer or 19 a failed capacitor is going to have the same 20 smell? 21 A Oh, now, wait aminute. 22 Q Well, that's what I'm trying to find out. 23 A Oh, well, now, 'failed,' you're probably 24 talking about an arcing failure of a transformer 25 or a case of a capacitor where the thing has WATER PCB-SD0000000779 5"9T 1 consumed itself. 2 Q What spell would Aroclor have there? 3 A In those situations -- remember, there' s 4 more than PCB inside a transformer. There are 5 cellulosic materials, in the case of a 6 transformer, pressboard, wood, and things like 7 that. And if this thing has been subjected to 8 the heat one generates where there is an 9 arc-formed gas, you're going to get carbonization 10 and odor and -- and so forth that is not at all 11 normal at all. It's going to smell. You better 12 believe it. 13 Q It's going to have an unpleasant smell? 14 A Oh, yes. 15 Q Okay. 16 A And you have hydrogen chloride, yes -- very 17 pungent. 18 Q Okay. Now, this electric utilities plant in 19 LaSalle, Illinois, you did not feel that they had 20 the ventilation they should; is that correct? 21 A I said this as a general thing, yes. 22 Q Did you -- 23 A Although I was not uncomfor table, but -24 Q Did you express your concern to people there 25, at the plant, that they were not handling it WATER PCB-SD0000000780 "STB" 1 well? 2 A No. 3 Q You just you kept your mouth shut and went 4 on? 5 A I wasn't being asked. And after all, they 6 have been working in there day in, day out, with 7 no report of any health hazards and -- 8 Q Did you ask them when you were there about 9 health problems? 10 A. No, I didn't. 11 Q You just --- back at Monsanto where you 12 normally stayed, you never had heard anything 13 about a health problem there at that plant? 14 A That's right. I hadn't heard of a health 15 problem at any of these places. 16 Q But you had never gone to any of these 17 places and attempted to determine whether they 18 had any health problems? 19 A No, I didn't. 20 Q You haven't heard of them. You haven't - 21 you haven't inquired about any, either . It's 22 just - 23 A This this is correct. 24 (End of reading) 25 WATER PCB-SD0000000781 599 1 MR. LACEY: Going to Page 388, Line 18. 2 3 (Reading from video deposition) 4 Q Did you ever visit the Monsanto plants where 5 PCBs were actually produced? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Did you visit both the Anniston, Alabama, 8 plant -- 9 A Yes, both. 10 Q -- and the -- 11 .A I've been in bothplants. 12 Q -- and the Krummrich plant? 13 A Correct. 14 (End of reading) 15 16 MR. LACEY: Going to Line 21. 17 18 (Reading from video deposition) 19 Q When were you first there, the first time 20 you were describing for me -- about what period 21 of time? 22 A I would probably put this sometime in the 23 1950 ' s . In the 1950's, sometime around there. 24 Because I should -- I would go to the laboratory 25 at the Krummrich plant, and there is where I saw WATER PCB-SD0000000782 ------------------------------ -- STMT 1 Aroclor used, tested, and so on and so forth. In 2 the laboratories, yes. 3 Q Did you also go out into the plant area 4 where it was being manufactured? 5 A I said yes, I was out there. 6 Q Okay. Did you observe any special 7 precautions being taken by any workmen to avoid 8 contact with Aroclors or any precautions taken by 9 Monsanto to keep the workmen from coming into 10 contact with Aroclors? 11 A I did not. I observed hard hats. I wore a 12 hard hat. I observed gloves being worn as one 13 would wear going -- wear climbing onto a tank car 14 or -- or going up iron stairs, et cetera, and an 15 iron railing, and maybe rolling some drurns. 16 These gloves were not there for the purpose of 17 covering the hand skin from the Aroclor. Neither 18 did I have anything. I had goggles was -- this 19 was standard practice. I had goggles. This is 20 standard practice you go into the plant. They 21 give you protective goggles. 22 Yes, sir. I had these and the safety 23 goggles, for instance, are glasses that was a 24 requirement when you went into a chemical plant. 25 At one point in time, whether you went to WATER PCB-SD0000000783 601 . 1 the PCB area or not, they would give you a smock 2 to wear, but you had that whether you went to 3 Aroclor or not. 4 Q Anything else? 5 A They wear safety shoes but not because of 6 the PCBs. They didn't want anything heavy to 7 break their toes. 8 Q You are talking about steel-toed shoes? 9 A Steel-toed shoes, yes. 10 Q Anything else? 11 A No, I would say that is it, 12 Q Did you see any changes between the way the 13 workmen were exposed or not exposed to PCBs when 14 you went back to the Krummrich plant in the late 15 '601s other than the fact it was cleaner and you 16 couldn't smell it? 17 A No, I couldn't see any difference in their 18 attire, no. - 19 Q What about the Anniston, Alabama plant? 20 'When did you visit that plant? 21 A I visited the Anniston, Alabama, I would say 22 first time 19 maybe 48 or 47, something like 23 this. , 24 Q What did you observe there about precautions 25 provided by Monsanto for the workmen? WATER PCB-SD0000000784 602 1 A Essentially the same as I have just said for 2 the Krummrich. 3 Q You didn't notice any? 4 A There are no special protective. They 5 didn't wear aprons and protective garments. They 6 were attired in their khaki. The supervisor, he 7 wore a white shirt, I don't know why, and khaki 8 ^ pants. He didn't, at times didn't wear hardhat 9 either. 10 Q Were there special uniforms thatMonsanto 11 required all of its people to wear? You were 12 supposed wear a khaki -- 13 A Why. 14 Q -- uniform to work? 15 A Yes. This is a thingthat whether you were 16 in the laboratories or the plants, you had these 17 uniforms to wear. It was no longer that you came 18 there in your street clothes. Your wore these 19 uniforms and they were laundered by the company 20 and are furnished and laundered by the company 21 and were changed once a week or twice a week, 22 whatever. If needed, if there, was spill, they 23 would be changed at this time. 24 Q Okay. So, the workmen had special clothes 25 when they came to work to change into? WATER PCB-SD0000000785 603 1 A Yes. They didn't work in their street 2 clothes, let me say, those days were over with, 3 yes. 4 Q Okay. Any other precautions that were taken 5 with regard to exposure to PCBs? 6 A Not that I know of, no,huh-uh. 7 Q The company laundered these clothes for the 8 workmen? 9 A Yes . 10 Q You can't think of any other precautions 11 that you observed being taken by Monsanto to 12 protect its workmen from exposure to PCBs? 13 A No. I never saw anybody wear a mask or so 14 forth. 15 Q I want to focus your attention now on the 16 matters that took place after the problems of 17 PCBs came to light in the 1960's. Do you 18 knowwhat I'm -- 19 A In other words, you're after certainly post 20 1960. You're up to 1968, would you say? 21 Q Yes. In the period of time where - 22 A All right. I'm with you. 23 Q Where there comes a -- 24 A Enviromental concern. 25 Q Yes. WATER PCB-SD0000000786 604 1 A Yes, all right. 2 Q Now, you were involved 3 (End of reading) 4 5 MR. LACEY: I'm sorry, ending there - 6 skipping to Page 396, line 18. 7 8 (Reading from video deposition) 9 Q I have got a document here. It's numbered 10 508 through 511. And it's a letter that appears 11 to be dated August 6 , 1970, on Monsanto Company 12 letterhead -- 13 A Uh-huh. 14 Q -- and signed by you. For some reason, I 15 don11 have any addressee on the letter. I don ' t 16 know who it was sent to. 17 (End of reading) 18 19 MR. LACEY: Go to line 4. 20 21 (Reading from video deposi tion) 22 Q Did you normally, when you had letters typed 23 up, show on there wher e who you sent it to? 24 A This one went to you right now and we are 25 talking about what we talked the other day, 1016. WATER PCB-SD0000000787 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------5-Q3- 1 This/ I think, was left open so that 2 people's names would be stamped on because this 3 thing received wide circulation -4 Q Uh-huh. 5 A -- ex-U.S. -- I mean ex-Monsanto. 6 Q Okay. 7 A This went as an information piece to our 3 Aroclor 1242 customers. It compares 1016 with 9 Aroclor 1242. 10 Q Now - 11 A -- which was an assignment I had. 12 Q Okay. 13 A All right. This is approximately when 14 Aroclor 1016, I think we will f ind, was being 15 introduced, 1970. 16 Q And you were involved in that, were you not? 17 A Yes, I was. I was the one really involved 18 in covering this with our capacitors customers. 19 Q Were you involved in trying to get them to 20 take on that product? 21 A I was -- yes. I was -- my duty was to show 22 them the difference in it and that we say that 23 there is essentially no difference; that if you 24 peole are willing to accept this, it's a step in 25 the right direction to help satisfy the WATER PCB-SD0000000788 606 1 environmentalists; if you're willing to accept 2 this, Monsanto is willing to make it and supply 3 it in replacement for 1242 if you so approve of 4 it. This is what it was. 5 I was giving them specifically -- there1s a 6 specification, isn't there, a comparison of those 7 specifications? 8 Q Yes. There's attached a specification 9 for -- 10 A 1016? 11 Q -- 1016 and for 124 -- 12 A 1242. 13 Q -- 1242. 14 A This is exactly what this thing is, yes. 15 Q Now, I've got another -- what appears to be 16 another copy of that letter -- and I want you to 17 compare it and let me know if it is -- Document 18 15 504 through 15508, that apparently indicates a 19 copy of that letter was sent to Mr. Robert E. 20 Abbe, ABBE. 21 A "Abbe" at G.E. 22 Q "Abbe"? With G.E.? 23 A All right. It says here, "You requested 24 this amount, and the" -- "the samples are being 25 sent to you." WATER PCB-SD0000000789 CT7 1 And Dr. Munch had analyzed -- or had tried 2 this in our laboratory with experimental 3 capacitors and found them satisfactory. 4 Q Okay. Dr. Munch was a scientist there that 5 was -- 6 A Yeah. 7 Q He was developing different dielectric 8 fluids in response in - 9 A Yes, he was. And this was one -- 10 Q This was not the only dielectric fluid? 11 A Oh, no. We were trying additional things to 12 this. This is the same thing here. 13 Q Yeah. Appears to be the same letter, does 14 it not? , 15 A This is exactly the same thing, yes. 16 (End of reading) 17 18 MR. LACEY: Going to line 8 on Page 19 400. 20 21 (Reading from video deposition) 22 Q Let me show you another letter, Document 512 23 through 516, dated February 18th, 1971, and 24 signed by you. Is that another one of your 25 letters involving this 1016 -- WATER PCB-SD0000000790 ?08 1 A Yes, it is. 2 Q -- problem? 3 A Yes, it is. 4 Now, this gives more information. Our 5 laboratory now, in '71, has completed life tests. 6 It takes time, you know. This is our additional 7 information. And, yes, this is all of this, the 8 results of life tests -9 Q Okay. 10 A -- giving these people the benefit of what 11 we have observed. 12 Q And then I have what I believe is another 13 copy of that letter, Document 15696 through 14 15701, indicating a copy of that letter was sent 15 to General Electric at Hudson Falls, New York. 16 A That's Abbe again. 17 (End of reading) 18 19 MR. LACEY: Going to Line 8 on that 20 page . 21 22 (Reading from video deposition) 23 Q On the second page of that letter, if you 24 would turn -25 A This one? WATER PCB-SD0000000791 1 Q Yes, that letter. 2 In the fourth paragraph from the end, you 3 say, "We have an extensive research program on 4 materials for use in capacitor dielectric 5 systems." Do you see that -- 6 A Where do I see that? On the second page? 7 Q Yes. Right there. 8 A Oh. "We would be most pleased to have you 9 visit" -- no. 10 Q NO. 11 A Oh, all right. I'm sorry. 12 "We have an extensive research program on 13 materials for use in capacitors die" -- yes. 14 We -- at this point in time Munch had set up a 15 laboratory facility to impregnate and life test 16 experimental possible replacements for PCBs. And 17 this was one of them. 18 Q When -- now, this actually was PCB product, 19 . though, wasn't it? 20 A Oh, yes. this is a PCB, and this is why it 21 didn't fly. To -- 22 Q When - 23 A Go ahead. 24 Q When did Dr. Munch first develop a non-PCB 25 replacement fluid for capacitors? WATER PCB-SD0000000792 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6TU 1 A I don't know exactly when; but it is in this 2 time frame when we are looking for replacements, 3 whether M-16 or something else. 4 Q Did Monsanto seek to acquire patents on any 5 of the replacement fluids developed by Dr. Munch? 6 A Yes. On -- on one, yes. 7 Q And that was one that you thought had great 8 promise? 9 A I didn1t. 10 Q You didn't? 11 A No. 12 Q Well, why go to the effort of seeking a 13 patent on it, then? 14 A Well, don't ask me. 15 Q Okay. 16 A I don't mean to be -- okay. 17 Q . Did Dr. Munch think it had some promise? 18 A Why don't you ask him? 19 Q Okay. You don't know anything about that? 20 A Sure, I know about it. 21 Q Well, tell me what you know about it. 22 A Well, you asked for one with a patent 23 application; so, we'll talk about that one. 24 This was a hydrocarbon base. Now, early on, 25 if I can remember, yesterday we talked about WATER PCB-SD0000000793 5TT . 1 dielectric constant, mineral oil, 2. This is 2. 2 And we also saw PCB at 5. 3 Now, we have a hydrocarbon base that does 4 not give the capacitance for the kind of 5 capacitors that we're going to have to make, 6 which are motor-runs and ballast. 7 Now, one way of increasing capacitance is to 8 add what Munch has patented. You can read in the 9 literature. It's a diphenyl sulfone, which has a 10 high dielectric constant. 11 Now, there's two things about this . It's 12 going to cost more than PCB. It is going to be a 13 lossy-type fluid. 14 Q A what? 15 A Lossy, L 0 -- it'sgoing to have dielectric 16 losses higher -- 17 Q Okay. 18 A -- than one wants to dealwith. 19 Now, this was submitted to the General 20 Electric Company and other people. And the 21 response was along this line -- you are aware 22 nothing is going to fly in this business unless 23 G.E. adopts it. We can assume this. 24 Their reaction to this was: "We have enough 25 trouble with lossy dielectrics that we are WATER PCB-SD0000000794 ~5~rz 1 already trying to find as replacement for PCB, 2 and we object to this for that reason." They 3 were not interested. 11 did not go commercial. 4 Now -- 5 Q Could it have been used as an alternative 6 capacitor fluid in capacitors that were then 7 being filled with PCBs? 8 A Could it have been? . 9 Q Yes. 10 A Dr. Munch, in his laboratory, made 11 capacitors that he thought were all right. 12 Q They worked? 13 A It could -- they worked, granted. 14 Q The problem was that you couldn1t get G.E. 15 to buy -- 16 A To use it. 17 Q -- to buy this fluid instead of PCBs? 18 A Yes. Or instead of other things, what 19 they're using now. 20 (End of reading) 21 22 MR. LACEY: Going to line 15. 23 24 (Reading from video deposition) 25 Q G.E., as I understand what you're telling WATER PCB-SD0000000795 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ m- 1 me, basically said, "I'd rather buy your PCBs 2 than this alternative that Dr. Munch has come up 3 with." 4 A No, I'm not saying that at all. 5 Q Okay. 6 A What I said -- and their laboratories were 7 closed doors at this point in time. They said, 8 "We all" -- "are already working with lossy 9 dielectrics as a possible replacement." 10 I know what they had in mind. They had in 11 mind phthalate ester, specifically dioctyl 12 phthalate, which they were working on. And they 13 began the life test in 1972. 14 And I guess we're in that framework of time, 15 somewhere around there. 16 Now, they had come to Monsanto and asked 17 Monsanto to supply dioctyl phthalate. Prior to 18 that and along at this point in time, Monsanto 19 had sampled G.E. with Santisizer 711. Now, to 20 make this simple, Santisizer 711 is a phthalate 21 ester just like DOP is a phthalate ester. 22 You don't want the whole explanation, is 23 that why you're smiling? 24 (End of reading) 25 WATER PCB-SD0000000796 FT? 1 MR. LACEY: Going to Page 407, line 1, 2 the answer continuous - 3 4 (Reading from video deposition) 5 A All right. Monsanto had Santisizer 711, and 6 and that's a phthalate ester with a -- one chain 7 seven carbons and another chain of 11 carbons. 8 Dioctyl phthalate has one chain of eight carbons 9 and another chain of eight carbons. Both are 10 phthalate esters. You can't -- they're like two 11 peas in a pod. 12 We offered Santisizer 711 to G.E., which we 13 made. We weren't making DOP. Later they would 14 ask us to do so. We didn't. 15 But they did not accept Monsanto's 711. The 16 reason: It was a tick worse on dielectric 17 constant, not a great thing. It cost more. And 18 that is important. 19 The other thing is they knew they could get 20 DOP on -- on the market, like a commodity, rock 21 and gravel. And this is what they were looking 22 for. Both products had the same 1imitations of 23 being an ester,subject to hydrolysis and 24 oxidation. So, why should they go with what 25 Monsanto offered? WATER PCB-SD0000000797 6T5 1 They were looking at DOP, and this was in 2 this time frame. 3 Q You were offering them alternatives in the 4 1971 time frame? 5 To PCB, yes. And this isn't the only 6 alternative that was offered. Another 7 alternative was another hydrocarbon, which was 8 later adopted, that type thing, by Westinghouse, 9 which they had researched probably prior to this 10 time we had sampled. 11 You can say, "Well, why didn't they adopt 12 that?" Well, our -- I'm talking about isopropyl 13 biphenyl -- ours was more expensive than they 14 felt their economics -- they adopted 15 eventually -- my understanding, they now use 16 something coming from this area, a hydrocarbon, 17 quote, "isopropyl biphenyl." They call it that. 18 It's an off-stream from a petroleum hydrocarbon. 19 And the point to all of this is -- and I 20 want to make it -- the time that PCB manufacture 21 terminated was the exact time when G.E. went to 22 market with dioctyl phthalate. Monsanto always 23 said as soon as anyone -- we, anyone -- on the 24 outside has a substitute, out; because the 25 company was ordered to shut down. The only WATER PCB-SD0000000798 '5T5 1 reason they were making it was because of the 2 insistence and the plea of the electrical 3 industry and the EPA. 4 Q When -- when had Monsanto decided that it 5 would stop producing PCBs as soon as there was an 6 alternative? 7 A As soon as there was an alternative and G.E. 8 stopped buying PCB, that was the end of it. 9 Q Well, let me -- let me separate those two 10 apart for just a second. 11 Are you telling me that by 1970 Monsanto was 12 committed to stop selling PCBs as soon as there 13 was an alternative product for use in capacitors 14 and transformers? 15 If you know. 16 A You've asked the question. To my knowledge, 17 this is it: The very top of Monsanto -- and 18 this is in response to the YUSHO thing. 19 Q YUSHO, you're talking about the Japanese -20 A Yes. 21 Q -- incident? 22 A When they shut down in Japan, that meant our 23 plant shuts down in Japan, too, not only the 24 Japanese. 25 Q When did that happen? WATER PCB-SD0000000799 FT7 1 A It was around 1968 or somewhere in that 2 period. 3 Q So, Monsanto's PCB plant in Japan was shut 4 down in the late Sixties? 5 A Oh, yes. 6 Q Okay. 7 A I would say so. 8 Q Okay. 9 A It neverreally got going, because I was 10 sent over there to try to market and had no 11 success. 12 (End of reading) 13 14 MR. LACEY: And I think the answer 15 continues on line 16. 16 17 (Reading from video deposition) 18 Q Now, let's get back here. The YUSHO thing 19 is the thing of very pronounced influence on PCB. 20 I'm not saying it was fully understood. It was a 21 marked influence. 22 The directive, as I understand this -- Paul 23 Benignus speaking -- we are making something that 24 is not wanted. Simple to understand? 25 Q Yes. WATER PCB-SD0000000800 ~5TE 1 A Get out. 2 Now, Monsanto proceeds to do this. It 3 wasn't difficult in the nonelectrical because 4 there were substitutes -- or substitutes could 5 easily be provided. 6 In the electrical industry -- and the reason 7 I'ra telling you this -- I got a phone call from 8 G.E. "Do not let Monsanto take precipitous 9 action to shut us down as has been already done 10 in nonelectrical." 11 My response to this is: "I know what it 12 means. You don't have to tell me that it runs 13 the risk -- if you can't get PCBs for capacitors 14 and transformers, you're going to say it's going 15 to run the risk of shutting down power supplies. " 16 And I believe it would have. It would have been 17 a very serious thing to do. 18 They did not have a fire resistant 19 replacement. We know this. We're talking here 20 about efforts to find replacements. None of 21 these were fire resistant. Now -- 22 Q The replacements they ultimately used 23 weren't fire resistant, either, were they? 24 A That's true, too. 25 Q Okay. Go ahead. WATER PCB-SD0000000801 619 1 A That's true, too. 2 Q Okay. Go ahead. 3 A Now, they pleaded, 'Don't shut down. Don't 4 shut us off.' 5 I said, quote, 'You're talking to the wrong 6 guy. You better your very top people and come in 7 to St. Louis and talk to the very top people at 8 Monsanto,' end quote. 9 This actually happened. This, they did. 10 Q Who did they talk to? 11 A They're not speaking only for themselves. 12 They're speaking for the industry. And because 13 of this -- and the government, also -- I'm saying 14 the EPA -- it's my understanding that the EPA 15 also said, quote, 1 Look. If this means shut down 16 power supply in this country, you're going to 17 have to find some way to proceed without doing 18 that.' 19 Then comes this situation: Agreement by all 20 concerned to proceed on the premise that 21 capacitors and transformers are hermetically 22 sealed. And they continued to supply, pending a 23 replacement. 24 Now, Monsanto had these things. There were 25 other things. None of them flew for us. And as WATER PCB-SD0000000802 620 1 I say, when the shutdown really came was then 2 G.E. announced and did go to market with DOP. 3 And that's the end of it and the answer to it." 4 5 MR. LACEY: Going to Page 413, Line 8. 6 7Q (Reading) "And the very products that were 8 used in capacitors and transformers in lieu of 9 PCBs were already available in 1970, weren 1 t 10 they? 11 A Yes, they were. 12 Q Okay. 13 A Yes, they were. 14 Q And had Monsanto stopped making PCBs in 15 1970 , the transformer and capacitor pe ople would 16 have gone to the very products they ev entua iiy 17 did go to in lieu of PCBs? 18 A This i sn,11 exactly right. No, I don ' t agree 19 with that. 20 Q What wou Id they have gone to? 21 A They -- well, all right. You ' re think ing 22 this throu gh for yourself. I don ' t mean to get 23 into a debate on this subject. 24 Q I just want to know your testimony. 25 A I agree DOP was available. I agree that WATER PCB-SD0000000803 620 1 I say, when the shutdown really came was then 2 G.E. announced and did go to market with OOP. 3 And that's the end of it and the answer to it." 4 5 MR. LACEYs Going to Page 413, Line 8. 6 7Q (Reading) "And the very products that were S used in capacitors and transformers in lieu of 9 PCBs were already available in 1970, weren1t 10 they? 11 A Yes, they were. 12 Q Okay. 13 A Yes, they were. 14 Q And had Monsanto stopped making PCBs in 15 1970 / the transformer and capacitor peopl e would 16 have gone to the very products they event ually 17 did go to in lie u of- PCBs? 18 A This isn't exactly right. No, I don ' t agree 19 with that. 20 Q What would they have gone to? 21 A They __ well, ali right. You re thi nk ing 22 this throu gh for yourself. I don' t mean to get 23 into a debate on this subject. 24 Q I just want to know your testimony. 25 A I agree DOP was available. I agree that WATER PCB-SD0000000804 TT2T 1 isopropyl biphenyl was available. I disagree 2 with your thinking -- because there is a big void 3 in what you're saying because these things were 4 not tested and probed and proved out -- that it 5 would be feasible, safe to go to market with DOP. 6 If you think it was an easy thing to 7 determine this, I assure you, it was not. And 8 after DO -- G.E. did go to market with DOP and 9 Monsanto shut off, did stop producing PCBs, I can 10 assure you there were some companies flat on 11 their face because they were not able -- they no 12 longer had the PCB. They had nothing. And that 13 was a very difficult situation. We -- we were 14 called things that weren't too nice. 15 I see. Isn't it a fact that the decision of 16 Monsanto to keep manufacturing PCBs after it had 17 alternative products and others had alternative 18 products available, was influenced by the fact 19 that Monsanto made a lot of monty selling PCBs? 20 A No, it was not. No, sir. 21 Q Had nothing to do with it? 22 A No, sir, it had nothing to do with it. 23 Q Okay. 24 A No, sir, it did not. 25 Q Let me ask you a question about your work WATER PCB-SD0000000805 F2"Z 1 with the American National Standards Institute 2 Committee C-107. 3 A Yes. This -- now, you re going up to 1970. 4 Well, that was published in '72 or '73. There 5 was1 6 7 MR. LACEY: Going to Line 12. 8 9 Q You were chairman of the steering committee 10 on the -- 11 A This is what I was going to say. 12 Q Okay. Tell me about that." 13 14 MR. LACEY: And then going to the 15 answer on the next page at Line 7. 16 MR. MUSSLEWHITE: Next page at Line 7. 17 18 A (Reading) "I was elected to be chairman. 19 Now, as I already told you, I was on the shelf at 20 this time. 21 Q Okay. 22 A Except I did know people. The transformer 23 makers and capacitor makers, I knew those people 24 through the years. 25 Q Were you an influential person with those WATER PCB-SD0000000806 623 1 people? 2 A They didn't dislike me, let me say. 3 Q They knew - 4 A They knew me. 5 Q Okay. What you -- what you had to say -- 6 A They knew me. And I was used to organized 7 this thing. Al Salazar at ANSI had the 8 government backing, the funds and support. But 9 he didn't know who to invite. I knew this. And 10 so, we drew up a list of people who should all be 11 invited. And this was very broad representation. 12 Q And Mr. Salazar is with National Elect rical 13 Manufacturers Association, correct? 14 A But he was also secretary of -- he was also 15 with ANSI," A-n-s-i. 16 Q "Okay. 17 A On this -- in this area and in some -- in 18 some other areas. 19 Q Now, the National Electrical Manufacturers 20 Association is a trade organization of people 21 like Westinghouse, General Electric, 22 Allis-Chalmers and Maloney and others? 23 A Yes. Whereas ANSI is really -- represents 24 government, organizations, and everybody -- the 25 PDA and the Bureau of Standards and the EPA and WATER PCB-SD0000000807 --------------------------- - - 6T2"4' 1 the -- everybody. 2 Q Okay. 3 A -- industry, institutional, universities, 4 and so on and so forth. Yes, this is correct. 5 Q Now, the -- this steering committee for the 6 ANSI C-107 group, you actually chaired that 7 committee, didn't you? 8 A This is what you're reading. So, yes . 9 Q I mean, is that accurate? 10 A They called me -- oh, no. I was chairman of 11 the steering committee. 12 Q Yes. 13 A Excuse me. Yes. That, yes. 14 Q And what did that involve? 15 A As I already said, as chairman of the 16 steering committee, I participated there in 17 getting this thing organized and getting it 18 together on behalf of Al Salazar, to get this 19 thing going. 20 Q Now, the actual chairman of the committee as 21 it finally wound up -- 22 A Right. 23 Q -- was Mr. Papageorge, wasn't it? 24 A You're right. 25 Q So -- WATER PCB-SD0000000808 625 1 A Not me. 2 Q So, a Monsanto man chaired both the steering 3 committee -- 4 A You're right. 5 Q -- and the committee? 6 A But the guy -- okay. Let's get -- let's let 7 the glory to the -- you're right. 8 >Q What? 9 A You're right. But I told you that I was on 10 the shelf, and Papageorge was put in there as 11 chairman. He didn't do the active work, I assure 12 you. 13 Q Who did the active work? 14 A Well, the composition of these are given 15 in -- in those brochures there. There was a 16 separate group for capacitors. Why? Because 17 they were capacitor people and knew what they 18 could do in the capacitor area. 19 There was a separate section. They were 20 transformer people they knew. We didn't have 21 carpenters or bricklayers or so forth. We asked 22 the EPA and people like that to participate. 23 They didn't know what to do but they were invited 24 and they attended meetings, yes. 25 Q Now, you and Mr. Papageorge were on both the WATER PCB-SD0000000809 ----------------------------------------------------- - BTS" 1 transformer committee and the capacitor 2 committee, weren't you? 3 A Oh, as -- as ex-officio, is it, there. 4 You're right. 5 Q What does 'ex-officio' mean? 6 A I don't know; I don't know. 7 Q Did -- did you get to participate in those 8 meetings? 9 A I walked around while these guys were 10 working. 11 Q Let me show you - 12 A I went from one room to another. 13 Q Let me show you a Document 020021. And this 14 has got the actual members on those committees - 15 A That is what I wastalking about. 16 Q -- doesn't it? 17 A Yeah. Yes. 18 Q Now, were there any representatives of the 19 EPA on those committees? 20 A This is what I already said. EPA was 21 invited to participate. What would the EPA do? 22 The EPA did attend the meetings. But when it 23 comes down to working out the nitty-gritty, we 24 couldn't get an EPA guy in there. We asked EPA 25 to attend all of our meetings. WATER PCB-SD0000000810 627 1 Q Uh-huh. 2 A And if you want to get into that, we'd meet 3 in -- in Chicago with the EPA; and the next time, 4 you'd meet in Cincinnati with a different EPA 5 man. We met in Washing ton at Gathersberg and so 6 on. It -- we asked these people. 7 Q My point is that these committees were 8 really made up of two Monsanto people and -- with 9 the exception of one representative from the 10 Department of Army on the transformer group - 11 the transformer and capacitor manufacturers, 12 weren't they? 13 A Excuse me for laughing. And you're going to 14 say this is self-serving. 15 Q I'm just asking who -- what people were on 16 the committees. 17 A As you see it right there. You're right. 18 Q Okay. 19 A This is correct. I've tried to say how 20 come -- 21 Q Well, how did it wind up like that, that - 22 A Well, I said the people on the capacitor 23 group were people knowledgeable with capacitors; 24 and the people on transformers, they were 25 knowledgeable with transformers. WATER PCB-SD0000000811 628 1 Q I mean, I note in reviewing this document 2 that it appears that there were people from the 3 EPA and -- 4 A Yes. 5 Q -- theREA and the TVAand others that were 6 on these committees, but they didn't get involved 7 in the working groups. 8 A They didn't want to work. They didn't know 9 what to do. 10 Q Okay. 11 A That's -- that's all. But they were on the 12 committee. 13 Q Okay.Now, the NationalElectrical 14 Manufacturing Association came out with their own 15 standards - 16 A Yes, they did. 17 Q -- for the handling ofPCBs in transformers, 18 did they not? 19 A Yes, they did. 20 Q Now, did Monsanto have a role in being 21 involved in the development of the National 22 Electrical Manufacturers Association standards? 23 A From the standpoint that those NEMA 24 people -- national association of manufacturers 25 -- are the same people that I think you find WATER PCB-SD0000000812 629 1 there on the ANSI thing, it's -- I -- it's 2 difficult for me to separate these two. I get 3 mixed up with it myself. 4 Q They are pretty closelyrelated -- 5 A Oh, absolutely. 6 Q -- the industry tradegroup and the ANSI? 7 A Absolutely. 8 Q Almost one in the same? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Okay. The" -- Line 22. 11 A "The one is dated '72, and I think the other 12 one is dated '73 and -- 13 Q I think it's '73 and '74. 14 A Excuse me. Okay. 15 Q It appears that -- let me show you the NEMA 16 standards - 17 A Yes. 18 Q -- the National Electrical Manufacturers 19 Association. It's document 7 64 through 816 . 11 20 appears they came out in January of 1973. 21 A All right. 22 Q And then the ANSI standards, the C-107, 23 apparently came out in January of 1974. 24 A Yeah. 25 Q And that's Document 728 through 763 . WATER PCB-SD0000000813 F3U 1 A Uh-huh, right. 2 Q Now, those standards, both the National 3 Electrical Manufacturers Association standards 4 and the Amerian National Standards Institute 5 standards -- and both of those were prepared by 6 these groups that basically were comprised of 7 industry people and Monsanto -- 8 A Yes. 9 Q -- those standards were very similar to each 10 other, were they not? 11 A Oh, they are. 12 Q Almost identical? 13 A They are. 14 Q Yeah. Those standards are consistently 15 (sic) different than the standards that the EPA 16 came out with on behalf of the Government, are 17 they not? 18 A You're in an area now where I was out of the 19 picture. 20 Q I see. 21 A I cannot answer this. I don'tknow. 22 Q Well, are you aware of the fact that when 23 the government took action, its action was 24 much -- more similar to that of Japan than to 25 what these industry groups did? WATER PCB-SD0000000814 ZJI 1 A I didn't know that, no. 2 Q Okay. You aren't aware of the fact that the 3 government banned the manufacture of PCBs? 4 A In Japan? 5 Q No. In the United States. 6 A In the United States, banned it, yes. That 7 came a little later than ' 77. '79, as I 8 remember. Is that right? 9 Q It was effective 1979 -- 10 A Effective -- 11 Q -- but the decision was made and legislation 12 passed in 1976, wasn't it? 13 A I accept what you say." 14 15 MR. LACEY: Going to Page 425, Line 21. 16 17 Q (Reading) "What the industry recommended 18 and what the government did were very different. 19 Industry said, "Keep on using PCBs,' and the 20 government said, 'stop.' What time frame are you 21 talking about? 22 A Well, depending on what time frame you ' re 23 talking about. 24 Q Well, the industry was saying from 1970 on, 25 'Keep on using them; we've got to have them.' WATER PCB-SD0000000815 TT2 1 A Yes, until they find a substitute. 2 Q Do these documents say anything about 3 looking for a substitute for PCBs? 4 A That wasn't the subject of these documents. 5 The subject of these documents is to try and see 6 how to prevent contamination of the environment 7 with PCBs. 8 Q I see. 9 A That is what these documents are addressed 10 to. The -- the purpose of these documents was 11 not to find a substitute. The purpose of these 12 documents is to try and specify standards as to 13 how to prevent contaminating the environment, 14 obviously, in the continuation of -- of PCBs. 15 And this is why I agree with what you1ve said. 16 Q In fact, wasn't it Monsanto's position that 17 it would be appropriate to continue to 18 manufacture and use PCBs in the dielectric area 19 because Monsanto was going to ensure that the 20 product didn't get out into the environment from 21 their plants and to refuse to sell PCBs to 22 anybody who let PCBs get out into the environment 23 from their plants -- if you know? 24 A I don't know, no, on that one. 25 Q I see. WATER PCB-SD0000000816 1 A You ought to check with somebody else. 2 Q Well, let me show you again Document 20021 3 through 20039 and direct your attention to Page 4 20026 and '27 . 5 A Okay. 6 Q That's the steeringcommittee statement on 7 PCBs, is it not? 8 A I would assume so, yes. That's what it 9 says. 10 Q You werechairman of thatsteering 11 committee? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Okay. And down here in I tern No. 4, it says 14 that, quote, 'Strict and effective steps have 15 been taken to avoid introduction of PCBs into the 16 environment at Monsanto' plants,' close quote - 17 A - Yes. 18 Q ~ "quote, and by the facilities used where 19 Askeral type transformers and capacitors are 20 made,' close quote. 21 A This is correct. This is what it says. 22 Q Okay. The position that was being taken by 23 this group was that PCBs weren't going to be an 24 environmental problem when used in the electric 25 industry because the manufacturer, Monsanto, and WATER PCB-SD0000000817 677--------------------------------- _------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------1 Monsanto's customers were going to enusre that 2 they didn't get out into the environment; is that 3 correct? 4 A I did not write this. I signed -5 Q Who wrote it? 6 A My name is on here. 7 Q It was ghost-written for you? 8 A I did not write this. 9 Q Who wrote it? 10 A I don't know, but -11 Q Well, why is your name on it? 12 A My name was used in many ways. 13 Q Well, did you approve the documents that 14 used your name before they went out? 15 A In essence, I'd have to say yes. 16 Q Okay. So - 17 A Yes, in essence. 18 Q So, the position thatthe steering committee 19 was taking was that PCBs weren't going to be an 20 environmental problems in dielectric use because 21 Monsanto as the manufacturer and the people to 22 whom Monsanto sold, as the actual builders of 23 capacitors and transformers, were going to take 24 the necessary steps to keep them from getting out 25 into the environment? WATER PCB-SD0000000818 635 1 And isn't -- isn't tht what -- isn't that, 2 in sum, exactly what you were stating? 3 A That's what it states in here, yes . 4 Q Now, do you know whether or not, intruth 5 and in fact, all of the people to whom Monsanto 6 sold PCBs actually handled them in such a way as 7 to keep them from getting into the environment? 8 A No, I do not. I do not. 9 Q Would that make any difference to you as the 10 chairman of the steering committee, signing a 11 document like that? 12 A Effort was made, as it says here, to prevent 13 spills into the environment. That was not fully 14 achieved. 15 Q Okay. And would it make any diff erence to 16 you, as the person signing that, that that wasn't 17 actually achieved? 18 A Yes, in full conscience, yes. 19 Q Okay. 20 Q Did Monsanto take any steps as the 21 manufacturer of PCBs to exercise whatever power 22 it had to ensure that its customers didn't allow 23 PCBs to be a problem? 24 A They did everything they could, yes. 25 Q What did they do with their customers who WATER PCB-SD0000000819 --------------------------------------------------- ----------- --------------------------- ---------------------- 5T51 weren't handling PCBs properly? 2 A I don't know. You would have to check with 3 the marketing -- with the person -- the business 4 director. 5 Q Well, then how can you say that they did 6 everything in their power if you don't even know 7 what they did? 8 A All right. Then I'11 withdraw what I said 9 and say check into this with the top of the 10 business, which I was not. 11 Q Well, would you agree with me that Monsanto 12 should have done everything in their power to try 13 to ensure their customers didn't let PCBs get 14 into the environment? 15 A I agree with that." 16 17 THE COURT: How much more of the 18 deposition? 19 MR. LACEY: With the portion that the 20 defendant has to offer, I would say probably 21 another 45 minutes. 22 MR. MUSSLEWHITE: Your Honor, we've 23 been reading the defendants', too. 24 THE COURT: Go ahead. 25 MR. LACEY: Going to Page 441, Line 15. WATER PCB-SD0000000820 fTT7 1 2 Q (Reading) "Do you recall at any time when 3 Monsanto was having trouble selling its Aroclors 4 because the quality of its product was not as 5 good as that of its competitors? 6 A No. Who are its competitors? 7 Q Well, weren't there other people around the 8 world who were making PCBs at some point in time? 9 A Oh, yes. No, I thought you were talking - 10 oh, you're -- you're into ex-U.S. 11 Q I'm asking whether or not you recall a 12 period of time when Monsanto's production of PCBs 13 was not as good a quality as that of the Japanese 14 and the Germans, for example? 15 A No, no. Absolutely not. 16 Q It was always superior? 17 A I don't say it was superior. It was 18 equivalent. I -- I say their quality, as far as 19 I know, was and could have been equivalent. This 20 comes back to setting these international 21 standards that I worked on. That was the purpose 22 for it, to have uniformity of quality. 23 Q And you don't -- you don't recall at any 24 point in time United States plants or Monsanto in 25 the United States being concerned that its PCBs WATER PCB-SD0000000821 638 1 were not as good a quality - 2 A No, no. Not at all. 3 Q Okay. 4 A No. 5 Q If that happened, that would be surprising 6 to you? 7 A Oh, it would." 8 9 MR. LACEY: Going to Page 445 , Line 3. 10 11 Q (Reading) "The primary source of literature 12 to people about any toxicological or 13 dermatological problems with PCBs and Askeral as 14 dielectric fluids was the literature that we've 15 already looked at, was it not? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Are you aware of any other literature 18 provided to customers about toxicology or 19 hazards, other than what we've already looked at? 20 A No. 21 Q So, as far as you know, as the person 22 designated by Monsanto to speak to advertising on 23 dieletrics, marketing, on dielectrics, and 24 technical data on dielectrics, that's the sole 25 source of information supplied to customers? WATER PCB-SD0000000822 FT? 1 A As far as I know, yes. 2 3 MR. LACEY: And then the witness 4 changed his answer after the deposition to 5 add, "By Monsanto. But others also supplied 6 literature. " 7 Then going to Volume III, Page 6, Line 8 8. . 9 10 Q (Reading) "I think at the point that we 11 stopped your deposition last time, you were 12 starting to talk about the problem of 13 contamination in dielectric fluids. And I wanted 14 to ask you some further questions about that. 15 If I understood your testimony correctly, it 16 was quite important that dielectric fluids not 17 have very much by way of contaminants in them; is 18 that correct? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q And the reason for that is that if 21 dielectric fluids have contaminants in them it 22 will have an effect on their electrical 23 properties, which is the point of making them, 24 correct? 25 A If it's outside contaminants, yeah, such as WATER PCB-SD0000000823 640 1 moisture. 2 Q Right. Now, with regard to PCB-containing 3 dielectric fluids, of course, there was a problem 4 that existed in the 1960s with regard to the 5 quality of the PCB dielectric fluids made by 6 Monsanto; isn't that correct? 7 A I never heard of it. 8 Q I see. Let me show you a memorandum dated 9 April 26 th, 1967 , written by you to Mr. Vince 10 Haupt at Anniston and ask you if you recognize 11 this Document No. 9875 through 9876. 12 A Yeah, I recognize this without reading it. 13 14 MR. LACEY: Your Honor, I have a copy 15 of this document I would like to make 16 available to the jury so they can look at 17 it. 18 THE COURT: You can collect the ones 19 that the jury has already seen, if you 20 would. 21 22 (Reading from video deposition) 23 BY MR. LACEY: 24 Q Did you write it? 25 A Sure, I wrote it. WATER PCB-SD0000000824 6"4l 1 Q One of your concerns here was the problem of 2 being able to control the quality of the PCB 3 products that Monsanto made and in particular, 4 with regard to their ability to meet specifics; 5 isn't that correct? 6 A It says, quote, "Overseas Shipments," end 7 quote. 8 Q Uh-huh. 9 A Now, I'll answer your questions down the 10 line. But I know what this is about. I wrote 11 it. It has absolutely nothing to do with the 12 quality of the product. It has to do -- well, 13 you ask the question. 14 Q Well -- let me see if I can understand - 15 A I know what you're reading. That's a -- 16 that's a humorous thing that I wrote there, and 17 I'm sure you're misled by this. I appreciate 18 this. 19 Q This was a joke? 20 A This is a joke. 21 Q I see. 22 A Now, if you want me to explain it, I will. 23 I know how -- I understand your quandary. 24 Q It's just a joke? 25 A It is a joke. It has -- well, if you wish WATER PCB-SD0000000825 F5T 1 to question about it, I'll answer anything you 2 want to question. It is not a --- it has nothing 3 to do with the quality of the fluid. 4 Q I see. 5 A It has to do with oversears shipments, and 6 I'm addressing that they should look into the 7 kind of drum we're using. I imagine we get into 8 discussing this somewhere. I didn't read it all. 9 Q Well, let me see if I can understand the 10 background for this document. 11 A Pine. 12 Q Monsanto made PCBs in the United States, 13 correct? 14 A This is correct. 15 Q And within the United States, Monsanto 16 supplied almost all of the PCBs that were used in 17 the United States. 18 A This is correct. 19 Q Monsanto also sold part of the PCBs that it 20 made in the United States, overseas -- correct? 21 A Cor rect. 22 Q Within the United States, there was very 23 little competition supplied by foreign 24 manufactures for - 25 A This is correct. _____________ I WATER PCB-SD0000000826 ST3 1 q -- the PCBs products, correct? 2 A Correct. 3 Q And the reason for that was that the cost of 4 transportation from a manufacturer overseas into 5 the U.S. made it very difficult for overseas 6 manufacturers to compete with Monsanto on price, 7 correct? 8A This is correct, yes. 9 Q Now, Monsanto did try to tell its U.S. 10 production in competition with others outside the 11 United States, did it not? 12 A This is correct. 13 Q There were other companies that made PCBs in 14 Japan and in Europe, correct? 15 A This is correct. 16 Q Within the United States, because there was 17 virtually no competition for Monsanto, as long as 18 the product met the minimum qualifications it 19 would be an acceptable product to the customer, 20 correct? 21 A It had to meet the specifications, which 22 were standardized worldwide. 23 Q Now, outside the United States, where you 24 were selling in competition with other companies 25 overseas, a customer might decide between buying WATER PCB-SD0000000827 644 1 a Monsanto PCB product and a non-Monsanto PCB 2 product, depending upon which was the better 3 product, correct? 4 A That's not not correct. They were 5 synonymous. They were the same. 6 Q I see. 7 A You're getting into a comparison of the 8 inherent characteristics and quality of the 9 product. And that is not what this address - 10 what this is addressed to. 11 Q I see. 12 A It is -- you're correct. It does deal with 13 shipping product overseas. Now, I'd like to 14 have -- this -- as I told you, this is a -- this 15 doesn't give any of the physical constants or 16 anything else. I know what this is about. I 17 wrote it. 18 Q Well, let's see - 19 A It has to do with the package, the package 20 going overseas. This is the subject matter. 21 Q Well, you -- 22 A Now -- 23 Q You talk about in this memo, do you not, 24 that overseas business is hard to get because 25 other people can buy from your competitors . WATER PCB-SD0000000828 645 1 easily; is that correct? 2 A Oh, I would certainly agree with that. 3 Q And you say in particular, quote, "It's not 4 like our domestic affairs where we don't have to 5 meet competitive quality," close quote -- 6 correct? 7 A That's what it says, yes. I told you, in 8 essence, this is a -- a joke here. 9 Q A joke? 10 A Now, if you want to get into the technology 11 of this, this is something quite -- if you wish 12 to discuss that, okay. 13 Q Well, this memo deals with Aroclor 14 electrical quality -- 15 A Yes, it does. 16 Q -- of overseas shipments, does it not? 17 A Yes, it does . 18 Q And it was talking about a problem that you 19 really had back in 1967, wasn't it? 20 A No. I don't call this a problem in quality 21 of the -- of the dielectric fluids, no. 22 Q You said -- 23 A Let's -- let's face it. The quality of our 24 material, the intrinsic quality of our material, 25 is synonymous with the French, the -- that made WATER PCB-SD0000000829 ---------- ------" " STU 1 in Britain, in Germany, and what have you. 2 Q Why don't you just read for me Points 1 3 through 6 into the record so we'll have them, 4 what you said. 5 A Well, I told you: This is a joke. 6 Q Well, why don't you read them to me? 7 A Well, all right. Quote, "We have high 8 electrical specifications on overseas shipments 9 set" -- 10 (End of reading) 11 12 THE COURT: I don't think it's 13 necessary to read this -- 14 MR. MUSSLEWHITE: All right. 15 THE COURT: -- in view of the fact that 16 the jury has it and you've offered it in 17 evidence. 18 MR. LACEY: All right. Let me skip 19 over that. 20 Going to Page 13, Line 9. 21 22 (Reading from video deposition) 23 Q You say Point No. 5, were you -- you were 24 telling the truth? Those were the facts? 25 (End of reading) WATER PCB-SD0000000830 FT7 1 2 THE COURT: What page, Counsel? 3 MR. LACEY: Page 13, line 19. 4 THE COURT: Page 13? 5 MR. LACEY: Page 13 . 6 THE COURT: I thought we were on 445? 7 MR. LACEY: We have moved to a 8 separate- number ed volume. They weren't 9 number consecut ively. 10 THE COURT: All right. We've got 11 several joined together. All right. 12 MR. LACEY: Page 13, line 9 -- 19. 13 14 (Reading from video deposition) 15 Q You say Point No. 5, you were -- you were 16 telling the truth? Those were the true facts? 17 A Absolutely? 18 Q Is Point No. 6 true? 19 A I can't speak Portuguese and Spanish. And 20 to converse overseas with people in a foreign 21 language is difficult; it's cumbersome. And 22 we're talking about a will-o'-the-wisp here, 23 an --- almost a myth. Specifically, David, we're 24 talking about volume resistivity and power 25 factor. WATER PCB-SD0000000831 __ ' STS' 1 Q Is Point No. 4 in the memo true? 2 A All right. We don't know what contaminants 3 and handling environments are the offensive 4 factors. David, we're talking -- this is what I 5 was looking for. It gives the subject; here it 6 doesn't give the subject. 7 Q It does up at the top, doesn't it? 8 "Aroclor 9 A Quote, "'Electrical Quality ," end quote . 10 Q -- electrical quality. 11 A All right. Let' s give it a subject. The 12 subject now is going to be the power factor or 13 dissipation factor and the volume resistivity. 14 Now, to begin with, there's no official 15 specification on the power factor because it is 16 too much a -- almost a myth, thse high power 17 factors that we expect the material to have. 18 It's so critical, so sensitive, the very 19 undefinable, minute traces of contaminants, that 20 we can't even manage to have a power factor 21 specification. David, if we had the product in 22 here and you stuck your finger in it, that would 23 ruin the power factor. 24 Now, here we're talking about shipping \ 25 overseas. There is -- I wish I had the WATER PCB-SD0000000832 FT? 1 specification. You will find a volume 2 resistivity specification. We're talking about a 3 volume resistivity, something on the order of 10 4 to the 9th times power ohm centimeter. Now, that 5 is a tremendous amount of resistivity. Now, what 6 was happening here is that when we -- 7 Q I don't want to interrupt you; but we're not 8 going to finish today if you don't answer the 9 question and -- 10 A I don't -- I know you're not, David. Will 11 you accept this as -- 12 (End of reading) 13 14 MR. LACEYi Skip down to line 22. 15 16 (Reading from video deposition) 17 A David -- 18 Q Yeah. 19 A This has todo with putting the stuff into a 20 drum of extremelyhighly refined quality, in 21 an -- a -- what did I use -- will-o'-the'wisp 22 thing? We can't even have a power factor 23 specification. All right. 24 . We've refined this exceptionally high 25 quality, as made. The material must respond to WATER PCB-SD0000000833 F5TJ 1 this when the user refines it. That's what is 2 important in his plant. Now, what I encountered 3 here, David, is that I suspected the 4 competitors -- particularly the French, and maybe 5 also the German -- that they're overseas. It's a 6 long way from here to Australia. This speaks 7 about Australia. 8 This isn't the first time this subject came 9 up. I spoke to our people about that in the 10 past. I felt that our package for overseas 11 shipment may -- should have been of possibly a 12 better construction. I felt that our package -- 13 maybe it would be the particular seal used on the 14 bone or the liners; that that may be somewhat of 15 a contaminating influence affecting these very, 16 very touchy critical electrical properties such 17 as, David, when freshly made and refined. 18 If we had it here and you put your finger - 19 I'm not comparing your finger to mine -- if I put 20 my finger in it, it would ruin it and it would 21 affect this reading. This is a facetious way of 22 getting attention to our plant people that I'm 23 not being as ornery as a junkyard dog, yet I do 24 understand the situation. I'm asking them, Will 25 you look into our drum for these long over -- WATER PCB-SD0000000834 - ; --' :: : ' 5"5T 1 this -- seas shipments? 2 I don't speak Portuguese and Spanish, as I 3 said here. It's hard for me to explain this to 4 the people. And I'm having difficulty talking 5 about it right now, David. I'd like to -- I want 6 to answer your questions. It is a facetious way 7 of approaching this subject: "Will you please 8 look into our drum package? I think our drum may 9 not be as good a drum package as the 10 competitors." 11 And as the result of it, I must have gotten 12 some feedback from a customer if -- I think it 13 mentions Australia, that the material arrived -- 14 this is going back many years. I know it wasn't 15 power factor. Nobody can handle a power factor 16 specification. We didn't have any. It's so 17 touchy, so critical. But volume resistivity, 18 yes. 19 (End of reading) 20 21 MR. MUSSLEWHITE: Want me to keep 22 going? 23 MR. LACEY: Yes. This has all been 24 designated by Monsanto. They want us to 25 read it. WATER PCB-SD0000000835 137 1 MR. MUSSLEWHITE; Okay. 2 3 (Reading from video deposition) 4 A But volume resistivity, yes. So, let's say 5 the spec on this was -- the specification was 500 6 times 10 to the 9th ohm centimeter. Maybe they 7 read something like 800 or a thousand times. 8 When you put 10 times 10 to the 9th, you get an 9 awful lot of zeroes out here. 10 All I'm telling you, is this is a facetious, 11 humorous way, without acking like a junkyard dog 12 or raising hell with our plant: Quote, "Will you 13 please give some --or at least look at our 14 package to see if that should be looked into," 15 end quote. 16 Yeah. Well, every sentence -- you can tell 17 that that is a -18 Q I'm going to - 19 A I'm sorry, but -- 20 Q -- object to the responsiveness of the 21 answer. 22 When you said in here, "We have a quality 23 control program but no control of quality," was 24 that a joke or is that a real -- 25 A That's a -- WATER PCB-SD0000000836 1 Q --- statement? 2 A -- joke, yes. 3 Q I see. When you said, "We have official 4 electrical" -- 5 A We had a very -- before I go farther, we had 6 a very efficient quality control problem. 7 Q When you say, quote, "We have official 8 electrical test procedures but get all kinds of 9 answers on the same production batch," close 10 quote, was that true or was that a joke? 11 A We had very strict specifications. And on 12 something like a power factor measurement, it is 13 easy to get differenct answers. And this is why 14 in this very strict specification, as strict as 15 it is, there is no finite limit on power factor. 16 Q Okay. When you you said, quote, "We know a 17 lot about the idiosyncracies of the electrical 18 characteristics of Aroclor, but we don't know 19 what contaminants in our production and handling 20 environments are the offensive -- are the 21 offensive factors," was that true or a joke? 22 A This is also -- it's both ways. Let me tell 23 you this: I don't know what the sales are in 24 your skin, as different from mine, David. I 25 don't. And we're talking about infinitesimal WATER PCB-SD0000000837 FF7 1 traces of contaminants. It's -- it's a 2 will-o'-the-wisp subject we're dealing with her e . 3 Q When you said, "On occasion we hit the 4 competitive quality specs, but we don't have 5 anything to put our material in capable of 6 holding these values," is that true or a joke? 7 A From the standpoint, if you will -- I was 8 not confident that the drum package -- not the vi 9 quality of the product -- the drurn package - 10 that we were doing ourselves justice, from the 11 standpoint I had reason to believe that the 12 competition may have had -- I wasn't sure -- may 13 have had somewhat of a superior container to put 14 it in that would to a greater degree control, 15 handle, maintain this will-o'-the-wisp electrical 16 characteristic that we're talking about, David. 17 It had nothing to do with the intrinsic character 18 of the product. I appreciate your quandary, and 19 I didn't know it was going to be -- come out this 20 way. 21 Q Let me show you another document. It's a 22 research and development report from the Anniston 23 plant dated May 5th, 1967, by Mr. G.W. Miller, 24 Document 9839 through 9874. 25 In that document, Mr. Miller -- in the WATER PCB-SD0000000838 F53' 1 summary of the document, he's just got a summary 2 of the document right there that's in two 3 paragraphs. Would you read that, please. 4 A Quote, "Bayer Cloaphen A-50 is quite 5 superior to Anniston and WGK Aroclor 1254 in 6 electrical properties. This material as received 7 exhibit a resistivity of 150,000 times 10 to the 8 9th and thermal chemical chloride stability of 9 .27 parts per million." 10 (End of reading) 11 12 THE COURT: Let me have a copy of that. 13 If you've offered it in evidence, can't 14 we - 15 MR. LACEY: I'11 skip over the summary 16 piece. 17 MR. MUSSLEWHITE: Do you want me to 18 read that or not? 19 MR. LACEY: Yeah. You should have an 20 extra copy. 21 MR. MUSSLEWHITE: Do you want me to 22 finish that answer? 23 THE COURT: Go ahead and finish the 24 answer. 25 MR. POHL: They've got one for you WATER PCB-SD0000000839 1 here, Judge. 2 MR. LACEY: Going to line 12 . 3 MR. MUSSLEWHITE: Do you want me to 4 finish the answer or not? 5 MR. LACEY: No. You can just skip 6 that. They have it. 7 MR. MUSSLEWHITE: It's just quoting 8 from the documents? 9 MR. LACEY: Right. Line 12 . 10 11 (Reading from video deposition) 12 BY MR. LACEY: 13 Q Now -- 14 A This is signed by the -- Miller. 15 Q Who is Mr. Miller? 16 ' A He's the chief analytical chemist. 17 Q He another joker? 18 A Is he what? 19 Q Is this another big joke about the fact that 20 the Japanese and German products are better 21 than Monsanto's products? 22 A This is not a joke. But you do understand 23 the difference between 9,600 times 10 to the 24 9th ohm centimeter resistivity versus 25 150,000 times 10 to the 9th ohm centimeter, WATER PCB-SD0000000840 657 1 David? 2 Q My question to you is: Is it true or false 3 that the Japanese and German made PCBs with 4 better electrical properties than Monsanto? 5 (End of reading) 6 7 MR. LACEY: Going to line 11 for the 8 answer. 9 10 BY MR. MUSSLEWHITE: 11 A To a mini-mini-mini degree, yes, David. He 12 is pointing out, yes -- it has no practical use, 13 significance, I assure you. And if we want to 14 get into the technology of this, I can. 15 Q Okay. Well, let's -- 16 A But he is saying this: He is the chief 17 chemist. And he is saying that he found, no 18 doubt, by comparative analysis, that here -- it 19 was Germans -- 150,000 times 10 to the 9th ohm 20 centimeter. This is saying that the Germany 21 quality is very high. Now, I'll make a 22 comparison that is understandable. Our 23 resistivity of 9,600 times 10 to the 9th ohm 24 centimeter, David, that would have to be rated - 25 and this is sensibletrying to be informative -- I WATER PCB-SD0000000841 F5 1 would have to rate that A-plus. Okay. 2 Now, on this scale, David, I'd have to say 3 the German stuff is A-plus. And we'll have to 4 put another plus on there. When we get out to 5 there, it is not of any great consequence. 6 Q The Japanese -- 7 A But he is serious here. 8 Q Yeah. The Japanese go an A-plus-plus on 9 theirs, too, didn't they? 10 A The Japanese? 11 Q The second paragraph. He talks about 12 Japanese Canochlor is superior. 13 A Oh, all right. I would rate that -- well, 14 that wasn't as high as as the German. Let's put 15 that as A-plus. 16 Q So -- 17 A Now, wait a minute. Before we go on with 18 this -- our material often has these same values, 19 David. 20 Q Well, let's get -- let's get down to serious 21 business. 22 A This is very high quality for someone 23 shipping it across the seas to us. 24 Q Let's -- 25 A Yes, it is. WATER PCB-SD0000000842 1 Q Let's get down to serious business. Mr. 2 Miller was serious in saying that the German PCBs 3 were superior to Monsanto's in electrical 4 properties; isn't that correct? 5 A In terms of volume resistivity, yes. 6 Q Okay. 7 A That is -- oh, excuse me. 8 Q I -- really -- without tryingto go into all 9 the technical details, I just want to know 10 whether he is saying that German -- he's serious 11 in saying that the German product was better in 12 its electrical properties than the Monsanto 13 product. 14 A No, this not correct. 15 Q Not saying that. 16 A He is saying this i n terms of ohm 17 centimeters, that he f i nds this tick superiority, 18 let's call it, in terms of ohm centimeters. Now, 19 this does not encompass the electrical quality, 20 overall electrical quality. 21 Q Well, I guess -- 22 A This is merely one feature of it. 23 Q Well -- 24 A He is saying that is very good quality. I 25 agree. ' WATER PCB-SD0000000843 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- " ' 6~5U 1 Q What he actually says is, "Bayer Chloaphen 2 A-50 is quite superior to Anniston and WKG 3 Aroclor 1254 in electrical properties." Those 4 are exact -- his exact words, aren't they? 5 A I agree to this. 6 Q It is true -- 7 A He is not an expert in the electrical 8 properties of a capacitor dielectric. 9 Q I see. 10 A Mr. Miller is not. 11 Q I see. He's just an -- a -- 12 A He's an analytical chemistry -- analytical 13 chemist. He has run a volume resistivity. He 14 finds that the quality of the Japanese and the 15 German is very fine. I agree with that. 16 Q Not just very fine. Superior to Monsanto's . 17 A Well, I won't go with that, no. 18 Q Okay. 19 I will say that it is good quality material. 20 I must also say Monsanto ' s is good quality. 21 Okay. But as betwe en the two, the German 22 and Japanese were better quality, weren't they? 23 A No, they were not. 24 Q I see. And isn't it a fact -- 25 A They were not. WATER PCB-SD0000000844 F5T 1 Q Isn't it a fact that it was the difference 2 in quality that prompted the writing of your memo 3 of April 26 th, 1967, that we've previously looked 4 at, Document 9865 and 9876? 5 A All right. Now we are coming down to this: 6 Here is evidence that the Japanese and the 7 Germans have indeed produced quality similar to 8 ours. They have indeed transported that quality 9 and laid it down in his laboratory at Anniston in 10 a high order of volume resistivity, as he reports 11 there. 12 Now we get down to what I was really driving 13 at, David. Our package --- I am not sure, in 14 terms of this very high volume resistivity - 15 that's all we're addressing here -- that we were 16 able to put down in Australia this unusually high 17 volume resistivity reading -- not that this has 18 any definite significance or import, as far as 19 using the material is concerned. 20 Q That fact of the matter is - 21 A I wanted our people to see, with this as an 22 example, can they put it into a drum and ship it 23 to Australia and not lose this very high quality 24 that we made when we put it into the drum. But 25 some unknown infinitesimal ionic contaminate, no WATER PCB-SD0000000845 ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------ -------------------------------------------- 6TTZ 1 doubt, caused our volume resistivity value to 2 drop -- not out of specification, because it's 3 still times 10 to the 9th ohm centimeters, which 4 is the important thing. 5 I am addressing our package. I'm using this 6 to get the attention of our people: "Look at our 7 drum, and let's see do we need to do anything to 8 improve it." 9 (End of reading) 10 11 MR. LACEY: Going to Page 28, line 16. 12 13 (Reading from video deposition) 14 Q So, what we know from that then, is the 15 produ ct, the electrical properties of the 16 Japan ese and German products, as it came out of 17 their plant, was superior to the Monsanto 18 produ cts that Mr. Miller tested; is that correct ? 19 A No. In those terms that he's talking 20 about -- and I'm sorry, David. I don't think you 21 have the insight into what the significance of 22 this term is -- 23 Q Well, I'm trying to -- 24 A -- and this is unfortunate. 25 Q I'm trying to get an insight into the fact WATER PCB-SD0000000846 F61 1 that the Japanese and the Germans were making 2 better products. And that's what these documents 3 say. And I'm having a hard time -- 4 A I appreciate -5 Q -- with - 6 A -- why you would have a hard time with this 7 thing, and -8 Q I -- 9 A Now, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Here - 10 ours is this: This is a very high -- this 11 specification is 500. We're way over it. This 12 is over it. This is way over it (indicating) . 13 This is over it. These are all excellent 14 quality. Now, if we're nitpicking hairs here, 15 which is a waste of time -- but if that's what 16 we' re doing -- yes, this is higher than these. 17 But you don't -- this is at 100 degrees at a -- a 18 a kilocycle. It's 10 times to the 9th power, 19 which isn't showing up here. You add these -- 10 20 to the 9th to all of these, and you have very 21 high order. These are all excellent. 22 Q Let me ask a question. You say they're all 23 excellent, correct? 24 A They're all excellent. Yes, they are. 25 Q And within the degree of excellence, the WATER PCB-SD0000000847 ------- - ' 6TT 1 German product and the Japanese product are 2 somewhat better, correct? 3 A Within that excellent, on one item, which is 4 this volume resistivity, yes. 5 (End of reading) 6 7 THE COURT: Let's don't keeping going 3 over this same thing, Mr. Lacey. You've 9 offered the exhibit, and it's obvious from 10 the exhibit that that's -- 11 MR. LACEY: That's fine, Your Honor. 12 Most of what I've been reading is the 13 Monsanto offering. We're reading their 14 offer for them. 15 THE COURT: Yes, but there's no need to 16 keep on arguing with him. He's obviously 17 he's not going to answer the question any 18 way except what he wants to answer it. 19 MR. LACEY: Let me to go the next 20 document. 21 MR. MUSSLEWHITE: Your Honor, do we 22 have permission to skip -- that's some of 23 their tender. Can we skip that -- 24 MR. LACEY: They've gotten all theirs 25 in at this point. WATER PCB-SD0000000848 FITS' 1 MS. OLESEN: Actually, Your Honor, he's 2 reading Monsanto -- he1s reading plaintiffs ' 3 offer, not Monsanto's offer. He's been 4 reading parts of their offer with ours. 5 THE COURT: It doesn't make any 6 difference who is asking the question: 7 They've got an obstinate witness, and 8 there's no need of demonstrating it anymore 9 than you 1ve already demonstrated it. 10 MR. LACEY: Thank you, Your Honor . 11 THE COURT: How much more of this 12 deposition do you have? 13 MR. LACEY: We've got about 60 more 14 pages, some of which is offered and some of 15 which is not. 16 Would you like for us to break here and 17 complete it in the morning? 18 THE COURT: Yes, I think maybe we'd 19 better. 20 Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I 21 appreciate keeping you overtime. I hope it 22 hasn't been too much of an imposition. But 23 to make it up, we will -- make it up to you, 24 we will not require you to be here until 25 9:30 in the morning. So, you may be excused WATER PCB-SD0000000849 1 until 9:30. Please remember the 2 instructions that the Court has given you 3 about reading anything about this case in 4 the paper or listening to it on the TV, if 5 there is anything. I presume, after being 6 here all day, you won't want to listen to it 7 or won't want to read about it either ,, 8 But those are the instructions. And if 9 for any reason you are affected by anything 10 that happens outside of this trial, anything 11 you might read or might hear or anyone might 12 talk to you, I will instruct you not to let 13 that happen. But if it should, then you 14 must report it to the Court and let the 15 Court know of the circumstances so that we 16 can take whatever action might be needed to 17 take. 18 All right. We'll stand recessed until 19 9:30 tomorrow morning. 20 21 (WHEREUPON AT 5:30 P.M. COURT WAS IN RECESS UNTIL 22 AUGUST 27, 1987, AT 9:30 A.M., AT WHICH TIME THE 23 FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD AND DONE.) 24 25 WATER PCB-SD0000000850