Document 6wMygrab5pDYGNjOGQkX7GRYm

1 r' (\ \ 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF CONNECTICUT X NEVADA POWER COMPANY, a Nevada Corporation, Plaintif f , vs. CASE NO. CV-S-8 9-55 5-LDG (LRL) MONSANTO COMPANY, a foreign corporation; GENERAL ELECTRIC COMPANY, a foreign corporation; WESTINGHOUSE ELECTRIC CORPORATION, a foreign corporation; and DOES I-XXV, inclusive, Defendants. X DEPOSITION OF JAMES SPARKS NELSON, TAKEN BEFORE LEE ANN BIANCUCCI, R.P.R., A NOTARY PUBLIC IN THE STATE OF CONNECTICUT, PURSUANT TO NOTICE AND THE FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE, AT THE OFFICE OF BRANDON REPORTING SERVICE, 11-A CAPITOL AVENUE, HARTFORD, CONNECTICUT, ON JANUARY 25, 1993, AT 3:30 P.M. Lee Ann Biancucci, R.P.R. Brandon Reporting Service 11-A Capitol Avenue Hartford, Connecticut 06106 (203) 549-1850 APPEARANCES : For the Plaintiff : RALPH A. BRADLEY, ESQ. Jones, Jones, Close & Brown, Chartered 700 Bank of America Plaza 300 South Fourth Street, Suite 700 Las Vegas, Nevada 89101 DAVID S. McCREA, ESQ. McCrea & McCrea 119 South Walnut Street Bloomington, Indiana 47402 For the Defendant, Monsanto Company : BRUCE FEATHERSTONE, ESQ. Kirkland & Ellis 1999 Broadway, Suite 4000 Denver, Colorado 80202 For the Defendant,_General Electric Company : DAVID C. KIERNAN, ESQ. JOSEPH G. PETROSINELLI, ESQ. Williams & Connolly 725 Twelfth Street, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20005 For the Defendant,_Westinghouse Electric Corporation : ROBERT J. TATE, ESQ. 27 Wellington Drive Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15229 2 WITNESS James Sparks Nelson INDEX 3 DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS 4 103 105 PLAINTIFF NELSON DEPOSITION EXHIBIT (For Identification) EXHIBIT PAGE NO. 1 Document entitled, "PCB : An Industry- Problem? " 23 (Reporter's Note: Exhibit attached to original transcript) 4 1 2 (Deposition commenced at 3:30 p.m.) 3 4 JAMES SPARKS NELSON, Deponent, of 13 5 Fenway Road, Branford, Connecticut 06405, having 6 first been duly sworn by Lee Ann Biancucci, R.P.R., 7 a Notary Public in the state of Connecticut, was 8 deposed, and stated as follows: 9 10 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. McCREA 11 12 Q (By Mr. McCrea) Mr. Nelson, my name is David 13 McCrea. I am from Bloomington, Indiana and I will 14 be asking you questions this afternoon. If you do 15 not understand the question, please advise me. If 16 there is an objection to my question by your 17 attorney, there are essentially three options at 18 that point. I can withdraw the question, your 19 attorney can instruct you not to answer, or you can 20 simply inform me that you don't understand the 21 question. But try to listen to the question and 22 then retain your recollection of the question 23 through the objections so you can eventually answer 24 it. 25 What is your age? 5 1 A Seventy-two. 2 Q You have given us your residential address, but 3 would you state it for the record again, please? 4 A Thirteen Fenway Road, Branford, Connecticut. 5 Q Are you retired? 6 I am. 7 Q When did you retire? 8 A Eleven years ago. 9 Q What is your phone number at your residence? 10 A 481-8000. 11 Q Did you work for General Electric? 12 A I did. 13 Q Can you describe for us your education beyond high 14 school? 15 A Bachelor of Science in engineering from Emory 16 University in Atlanta, Georgia. 17 Q What type of engineering? 18 A My degree was engineering without modification; 19 however, I majored in electrical and electronic 20 engineering. 21 Q When did you start working for General Electric? 22 A In the spring of 1942. 23 Q You retired, sir, in what year? 24 A January 1st, 1982. 25 Q Who was your supervisor or should I say to whom did 6 1 you report at General Electric in 1969? 2 A J.F. McAllister. 3 Q What was his position with General Electric in 4 1969? 5 A He was a manager, product safety, for the corporate 6 executive staff. 1 7 Q For what period of time had General Electric had a 8 product safety manager before 1969? 9 A Well, whatever position's have that title in various 10 operating plants perhaps, I don't know, they would 11 have been at different dates. There was -- Did I 12 say product safety? It was product quality was the 13 proper title for McAllister. Is that what I said? 14 Q I am not sure. I thought you said product safety? 15 A Could I have that read back? 16 M R . FEATHERSTONE: He did say product 17 safety if that helps out at all. 18 A I would like to correct that. McAllister's title 19 was not product safety. It was product quality, 20 and he had product safety specialists working under 21 him. 22 Q (By Mr. McCrea) Where was Mr. McAllister's office 23 located? 24 A It was in New York City. 25 Q Who were the product specialists -- product safety ________________________________________________________________________ 7 1 specialists who worked under Mr. McAllister in 2 1969? 3 A Don Marquis? M-A-R-Q-U-I-S, and myself. 4 Q Where is Mr. Marquis at this date? 5 A I don't know. 6 Q What was his title in 1969? 7 A Consultant, product safety. 8 Q What was your title in 1969? 9 A I believe it was the same. 10 Q What education and training did you have in 11 addition to your degree in engineering that related 12 to product safety? 13 A My preparation for that position was a variety of 14 experience in engineering and administrative 15 positions. It was no formal course that 16 specifically prepared me for that position. 17 Q Did you attend seminars through the years before 18 1969 which discussed product safety? 19 A I don't think so. 20 Q Did you conduct seminars before 1969 that concerned 21 product safety? 22 A I don't think so. 23 Q What products did you oversee in 1969 with regard 24 to safety? 25 A I have a little difficulty with the form of that 8 1 question. 2 Q Can you generally describe for us your range of 3 duties in 1969? 4 A Yes. X was a consultant for product safety. It 5 was my job to assist operating components in 6 meeting their responsibilities for product safety, 7 and this was done in a number of ways. Basically, 8 we assured ourselves through an annual reporting 9 framework that they had in place, the managerial 10 tools necessary to do a good job in that area, and 11 we also put them in touch with experts as 12 appropriate or as needed to supplement their own 13 resources in handling particular safety problems as 14 they arose. 15 Q Were outside consultants employed by General 16 Electric in the area of product safety? 17 A I can't answer that question. It's possible that 18 individual departments did so from time to time. 19 Q Did you focus- on the safety of workers employed by 20 General Electric? 21 A No. ` That was beyond my scope. 22 Q Did you focus on the safety of individuals who 23 purchased General Electric's products? 24 A No. 25 Q What was the focus? 9 1 A The focus was on the safety of the products 2 themselves as used by their purchasers, consumers, 3 and by the -- and by means of ultimate disposition, 4 what happens when you throw them away, but when you 5 say purchasers, I think of purchasing agents. 6 There was no focus like that. 7 Q You have given a good explanation. 8 A Okay. 9 Q Did you design labels? 10 A No. 11 Q Did you formulate warnings? 12 A No. 13 Q Did you have any participation regarding 14 communications to purchasers of your products? 15 A We are still speaking 1969? 16 Q Yes, sir. 17 A I would say in general, no. 18 Q Were those responsibilities undertaken by General 19 Electric specifically to communicate information 20 and warnings to purchasers of General Electric's 21 products? 22 A Again, I have trouble with the breadth of that 23 question because we had hundreds of operating 24 components, each with their own responsibilities 25 and product situations, and what was appropriate 10 1 for one in one set of circumstances would not be 2 applicable to another, so when you say what did 3 General Electric do, General Electric ran a 4 multitude of business with responsible management 5 for each one. That's the only thing I can say. 6 Q When did General Electric first use material safety 7 data sheets for chemical products which it sold? 8 A May I ask a question? 9 Q Yes, sir. 10 A What do you mean by chemicalproducts? 11 Q Any product that is manufactured by General 12 Electric using constituent ingredients purchased 13 from other sources. 14 A I don't know when material data sheets were first 15 instituted. 16 Q Do you recall when you first became knowledgeable 17 about material safety data sheets? 18 A- Probably -- No, I can't recall when I did. No. 19 Q Did you ever participate in the preparation of a 20 material safety data sheet? 21 A No. 22 Q Did you ever read a material safety data sheet 23 while at General Electric? 24 A Yes. 25 Q You don't recall the specific first date? 11 1 A No, I am sorry. 2 Q Did you have a filing system in your office in 3 1969? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Where was your office located, what building, room 6 number in 1969? 7 A It was in the -- Let's see. It was in Schenectady, 8 New York in the building that formerly housed the 9 radio station. I can't think of the name of it. 10 It's the first building you come to upon entering 11 the Schenectady plant. It's on your right. 12 Q When did you first learn about polychlorinated 13 biphenyls or PCBs? 14 A Probably sometime before the date you are inquiring 15 about. 16 Q How did you learn about PCBs? 17 A Well, for several years I worked in the capacitor 18 department in Hudson Falls, New York. 19 Q What years did you work in the capacitor department 20 at Hudson Falls? 21 A Let me think. That would have been about 1963, I 22 think, or '4, along in there. 23 Q Describe your work in 1963 or 1964 in Hudson Falls 24 as it related to PCBs? 25 A Well, I was manager of product planning and 12 1 marketing research, and it was my job to try to 2 take care of the wants and needs of customers with 3 technical developments coming out of our 4 engineering section and this involved, in some 5 cases, in the case of polymer capacitors a new 6, dielectric system and it's in dealing with customer 7 specifications, and specifications is too precise a 8 word but interpreting customers' needs and 9 comparing them with our technological strengths, it 10 was in this light that I gained some familiarity 11 with the various dielectric systems including PCB. 12 Some capacitors1didn't use any dielectric liquids 13 at all but PCBs was one of the things that came 14 into my purview in the course of that job. 15 Q Where did General Electric purchase PCBs in 1963? 16 A Monsanto. / 17 Q What did you understand the toxicity of PCBs to be 18 in respect to human beings in 1963? 19 A The LD50 as disclosed in our material data sheets 20 was such as to indicate a low degree of toxicity. 21 Q Earlier you stated-you were unfamiliar with 22 material safety data sheets in 1969 as I recall 23 your testimony? 24 A No, I did not say that. Excuse me. I said I could 25 not recall when I first became familiar with 13 1 material safety data sheets. 2 Q So you were familiar with material safety data 3 sheets in 1963 when you started your work at Hudson 4 Falls? 5 A I am not sure I can confirm that. It seems 6 reasonable, but I could have learned about the LD50 7 from various sources, but it's reasonable to 8 suppose I did it by looking at a material safety 9 data sheet. I certainly had a volume of these 10 things in my office. 11 Q LD50 stands for what? 12 A The dose at which half the rats will die I think is 13 the way I understand it. 14 Q What was your understanding of the dose that would 15 result in the death of test animals in 1963, 16 particularly rats? 17 A I understand it was high enough as to indicate a 18 low degree of toxicity to mammalians. I couldn't 19 tell you a number. 20 Q What was the source of your data for the LD50 to 21 rats in 1963? 22 A I didn't have any such source. I gave you my 23 understanding of what the LD50 means which is the 24 question you asked me. 25 Q Where did that number come from? 14 1 A It came from the data sheet and from the literature 2 from Monsanto, the description of their product. 3 Q You don't recall the specific numbers? 4 A No. 5 Q What else did you understand about the toxicity of 6 PCBs in 1963? 7 A Well, I used to walk through the factory frequently 8 where PCBs were in use, and the -- it was apparent 9 that conditions were such as to provide general 10 exposure of the work force -- of a large portion of 11 the work force to PCBs and yet I observed no worry 12 about that, no fear of it. This was in addition to 13 the technical knowledge I had, this may be not 14 daily but certainly frequent observation of people 15 happily doing their work with soldering irons 16 dipping into it and, you know, generally treating 17 it as a material that didn't represent danger to 18 them. 19 Q That was something which you observed? 20 A Uh-huh. 21 Q Did you have occasions to take purchasers through 22 the plant who were interested in buying your 23 apparatus? 24 A No. 25 Q Did purchasers tour the plant? 15 1 A I don't know. 2 Q You observed workers going about their work without 3 worry? 4 A Uh-huh. 5 Q And working with PCBs? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And you described a process involving a soldering 8 iron. Can you give us more detail about that, 9 please? 10 A The last step in sealing a capacitor was to solder 11 the terminal in place, the fill hole, to close it 12 up at the end of treatment. 13 Q Did this involve the use of solder? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Did it involve heat? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Did it generate smoke? 18 A Not visibly. 19 Q Describe what exposure you observed about the 20 worker? Were there fumes? 21 A I saw no fumes. 22 Q Was there an odor? 23 A Well, that's a little difficult to answer. Some 24 people claim that PCBs are odorless. I think I can 25 smell them. 16 1 Q Did you in fact smell them when you toured the 2 plant and observed -3 A I think so, yes. 4 Q Did General Electric submerge capacitors in ovens 5 to impregnate the equipment? 6 A That depends on the product 1ine involved. 7 Q Particularly the product line involving PCBs or 8 pyranol? 9 A It depends again on the size and rating of the 10 capacitor. There are different manufacturing 11 processes for use for different ones. 12 Q Describe the warnings which General Electric issued 13 to its workers in 1963? 14 A I can't do that. 15 Q Describe the protective clothing that the 16 individuals doing the soldering wore? 17 A That's beyond my province. 18 Q Did you see him? Did you see the person doing the 19 soldering? 20 A Well, yes, but I saw -- I don't recall noticing any 21 protective clothing. You understand that's not my 22 area of responsibility. Do you? 23 Q Whose area of responsibility would it be to address 24 the issue of protective clothing? 25 A It would be the plant safety people. 1 *Q 2A 3 4Q 5 6 7A 8 9 10 Q 11 A 12 13 A 14 Q 15 16 A 17 18 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 Q But you observed no protective clothing? I am not -- I have no recall of observing any protective clothing. Be careful how you phrase it. Identify the plant by its name, building number, location, where capacitors were filled with PCB oil by General Electric? There are two such plants, one at Hudson Falls, New York and one at Fort Edward, New York, a few miles apart. Are those plants in existence today? I don't know. MR. KIERNAN: If you know. I don't know. (By Mr. Bradley) Did they have a building number? Did the plant at Hudson Falls which manufactured -- The whole plant was devoted to that purpose, so I don't know what significance building numbers would have. Did you keep files on PCBs? Not in that petition in Hudson Falls. In 1969, did you keep files on PCBs? Yes. Where were those files, kept? In the office file cabinets. Who organized the office file cabinets where the 17 18 1 PCB information was kept? 2 A My secretary under my direction. 3 Q Describe the filing system as it existed which was 4 maintained by your secretary in 1969? 5 A I am afraid I can't at this date. 6 Q What categories of information did you file? 7 MR. FEATHERSTONE: We are talking about 8 1969? 9 MR. McCREA: Nineteen sixty-nine. 10 A Well, probably in 1969 there wasn't even a file 11 that was specifically set aside for PCB 12 information. Of course not enough evidence had 13 come in at that date. I can only -- I can't tell 14 you after all these years what the names of 15 individuals of file folders were. Suffice it to 16 sa,y that I knew how to retrieve it when I needed 17 it. 18 Q (By Mr. McCrea) When did you start your filing 19 system for PCBs? 20 A I am not sure I ever had one by that name. 21 Q When did you begin filing documents that related to 22 PCBs? 23 A I would say probably 1969. 24 Q When did you last file documents that related to 25 PCBs? 1 A Late in 1981. 2 Q Where were those files located in 1981? 3 A In General Electric headquarters. 4 Q What is the name of the building, General, Electric 5 headquarters? What's the name of the building? 6 A It's General Electric Company. 7 Q What's the address? 8 A Fairfield, Connecticut. 9 Q What was the room number? 10 A I don't know. 11 Q What was the department? 12 A Product quality staff. 13 Q Who had access to the files in 1981 besides 14 yourself that related to PCBs? 15 A No one. Virtually no one. 16 Q What volume of files did you have? 17 A Several file folders, I would guess. 18 Q Give us an estimate as to the number of pages or 19 the length of the file or the number of drawers as 20 best you can that existed in 1981? 21 A I can't think of a meaningful way to do that 22 because the subject matter included reports of 23 conferences and things of that sort. One report 24 might be that thick (indicating). 25 Q You are indicating two or three inches? 19 X A Yes. And -- What -- 2 Q Did you have a file drawer full? Did you ha^ 3 file drawers? Did you have six cabinets? Giv^ 4 an idea. \ 5 A Let's say a file drawer. 6 Q Did you have an index for those files? 7 A We had -- Yes, we maintained a list of files so 8 that I could mark a letter on the file number so 9 and so and my secretary could put it there without 10 worrying where it belongs. 11 Q Where are the files today? 12 A I don't know. 13 Q Where would the index be today? 14 A It probably doesn't exist. 15 Q In 1969, did you prepare a document entitled, "PCB: 16 An Industry Problem?1'? 17 A Yes, I did. 18 Q Who assisted you in the preparation of that 19 document? 20 A I obtained information from a number of sources, 21 but I had no assistance for the preparation of the 22 document itself. 23 Q Did you have a file associated with the source 24 material you obtained? 25 A Probably not. 21 1 Q Have you been deposed before regarding the document 2 you prepared entitled, "PCB: An Industry Problem?"? 3 A Yes. 4 Q In what cases have you been deposed about that 5 document? 6 A Perhaps my lawyers would care to answer that. 7 MR. KIERNAN: I don't know. 8 A I think it came up -- I don't know. I don't know 9 really. I have been deposed before, but I don't 10 know whether that document was in this case or that 11 case, Pierce Packing. 12 Q (By Mr. McCrea) When was the Pierce Packing case 13 filed? 14 A Eighty-two. 15 Q Were you deposed in the case entitled, "Independent 16 Life Insurance Company versus General Electric"? 17 A I believe I was. 18 Q Do you recall when you were deposed in that case? 19 A No. 20 Q How many depositions have you given which have 21 focused on PCBs? 22 A Three. 23 Q Do you have copies of those depositions at your 24 residence? 25 A I have copies of two of them at my residence. 22 1 MR. McCREA: We would ask counsel that 2 those be provided to you and then provide it 3 to us. 4 MR. KIERNAN: Submit a request to me 5 formally, and we will take it under 6 consideration. 7 Q (By Mr. McCrea) Did you review those depositions 8 before this deposition? 9 A I read through them last night, yes. 10 Q Sir, did you review the document, "PCB: An Industry 11 Problem?n before this deposition? 12 A Yes. 13 Q What other documents did you review in addition to 14 the two depositions and the document you authored 15 entitled, "PCB: An Industry Problem?"? 16 A I can't think of anything of significance. 17 Q Were you asked to review those documents by the 18 attorney for General Electric? 19 A No. 20 Q You did that on your own volition? 21 A I did that because I had been asked to come here to 22 give a deposition, and I wanted to refresh my 23 memory. 24 Q In addition to those two depositions and the 25 document, you don't recall any other materials 23 1 which you read to refresh your memory? 2 A The question pertains to my recall, and I have to 3 say no. 4 Q Let me hand you an exhibit and ask if you can 5 identify it, and we need to have the court reporter 6 mark it. 7 8 (Plaintiff Nelson Deposition Exhibit 9 1: Marked for Identification) 10 11 Q (By Mr. McCrea) Mr. Nelson, the court reporter 12 has marked an exhibit and I believe it states 13 Nelson 1? is that correct? 14 A Correct. 15 Q Take you time, review the exhibit and I will ask 16 you if you can identify it. 17 (Pause) 18 Q At the lower right-hand corner it has Bates number 19 200383 and that number goes through to the last 20 page'which is '200389. Mr. Nelson, can you identify 21 the exhibit? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Did you author the exhibit? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Does the exhibit have your name on page 6 at the 24 1 end, J.S. Nelson? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Dated October 30, 1969; correct? 4 A Correct. 5 Q Does it consist of six pages? 6 MR. FEATHERSTONE: No. 7 A Including the index, I believe it's seven pages. 8 Q (By Mr. McCrea) I stand corrected. Does it 9 consist of seven pages? 10 A Yes. 11 Q This document is titled, MPCB: An Industry 12 Problem?". Would you define "industry" for us? 13 A The term was chosen here to suggest that if there 14 is a problem, it may involve more than one 15 manufacturer. It may involve a whole industry, and 16 the industry here would be the electrical 17 manufacturing industry. 18 Q Does the word, "industry" include any other 19 business entities, other than the manufacturing 20 industry? 21 MR. KIERNAN: You are asking him at the 22 time he drafted this report what he was -23 what was in his mind in terms of the use of 24 the word "industry"? 25 MR. McCREA: Correct. 1 MR. KIERNAN: If you know. 2 A Would you kindly repeat the question? 3 Q (By Mr. McCrea) Does "industry" incorporate any 4 other business entities, other than the 5 manufacturing segment? 6 A Logically it incorporates the whole electrical 7 industry, but there is nothing specifically said in 8 this document about -- Well, there is some -- It's 9 electrical industry and by implication, all who are 10 affected would include our suppliers and customers. 11 Q To whom was this document distributed? 12 A I don't know. I don't remember. I can tell you 13 that as a minimum it went to my immediate superior, 14 Mr. McAllister. 15 Q Who requested that you author this document? 16 A It was self-generated. 17 Q Was this document filed in your PCB file? 18 A I don't know. I don't know if I had a PCB file. I 19 am not trying to be cute. I just don't know. 20 Q There is nothing on this document to indicate that 21 it is a proprietary document. Do you know if in 22 fact this was proprietary within General Electric 23 on the date you authored it which is October 30, 24 1969? 25 A As far as I know, it was not considered proprietary 1 because the purpose of it was to stimulate inquiry 2 to find out if there is an industry problem here, 3 and the more knowledgeable responsible people that 4 we could bring into the picture, the quicker we 5 might begin to find some answers, 6 Q Did you generate documents on the subject of PCBs 7 that were proprietary to General Electric? 8 A I have done so. Whether they are proprietary, I 9 think -- Well, let me think about that. I don't 10 know of -- Most of my output was in the form of 11 communications and communications are not usually 12 proprietary; they are usually designed to be the 13 opposite, they are designed to communicate. 14 Q Do you recall if in fact you generated documents 15 that were proprietary which addressed the subject 16 of PCBs while employed at General Electric? 17 A Do you mean in the sense of containing information 18 that we would not like our competitors to have or 19 technically proprietary or what? 20 Q Information that you desired to keep confidential 21 within General Electric? 22 A I don't believe so. I don't think of any. 23 Q You have the first cover sheet as an outline; 24 correct? 25 A Yes. 26 27 1 Q You have six categories. The first category is 2 Origin of Current Concern - Ecological Effects. 3 What was the origin of the current concern? 4 A As stated in this paper, there appeared in 1969 5 reviews in Scientific American and then the San 6 Francisco Examiner, about some scientific 7 investigation made by a Dr. Risebrough of the 8 University of California and that article stated 9 that residues of pesticides and polychlorinated 10 biphenyls were threatening the welfare of certain 11 birds. 12 Q Did you -- Do you recall an individuals named Soren 13 Jensen, first name spelled S-O-R-E-N, last name, 14 J-E-N-S-E-N, a Swedish scientist? 15 A Yes, I have heard of him. 16 Q Did you read any reports of this Swedish scientist 17 on the subj ect of PCBs? 18 A I can't recall whether I read any of his original 19 articles or merely read reviews of them, but I know 20 that he was writing on that subject. 21 Q What do you mean by ecological effects, this would 22 be a concern with material entering the food chain, 23 perhaps affecting the balance of nature? Directing 24 your attention to page 1 which at the top, the 25 first heading, "Origin of Current Concern - 1 Ecological Effects," in that first paragraph, you 2 reference Dr. Robert Risebrough on line 3. Do you 3 see that, sir? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Did you talk with Dr. Risebrough at the time you 6 prepared this document? 7 A No, I didn't. 8 Q And that paragraph makes reference to a February 9 1969 West Coast newspaper article; correct? 10 A Yes, it does. 11 Q In that article there is reference to PCB, "Posed 12 long-term threat to humans." Can you give us your 13 understanding of what that meant? 14 A No. 15 Q In the first subparagraph or what we could perhaps 16 refer to as the second paragraph on page 1, there 17 is what you term a synopsis; is that correct? 18 A You state "The following is Nature's synopsis of 19 Dr. Risebrough's paper"? 20 A Nature is a British magazine. 21 Q And the statement is made, "Polychlorinated 22 biphenyls are widely dispersed in the global 23 ecosystem and are powerful inducers of hepatic 24 enzymes which degrade estradiol," and I am sure I 25 didn't pronounce that right, e-s-t-r-a-d-i-o-1. 28 _________________________________2 9 1 Did you research what that statement meant? 2 A This is a synopsis of Dr. Risebrough's paper and I 3 know that in a general way what is meant by the 4 statement made that hepatic enzymes are liver 5 enzymes, and I have read discussions by those 6 versed in this science which say that while there, 7 is some hepatic enzyme induction, there were no 8 clinical effects observed. 9 Q Sir, what does this statement mean, "Powerful 10 inducers of hepatic enzymes which degrade 11 estradiol"? 12 A I don't know. 13 Q You didn't follow up on that one? 14 A I don't know. I don't recall what estradiol is. 15 Q The next sentence in this synopsis states, 16 "Together with other chlorinated biocides," what is 17 a chlorinated biocide? 18 A It would be a material that's chlorinated and that 19 is capable of killing biological organisms. 20 Q Did you follow up on that one at all -- 21 MR. FEATHERSTONE: I object. 22 Q (By Mr. McCrea) -- to determine what the 23 reference was there, the specific chemicals? 24 A Well, -- 25 MR. KIERNAN: Can you restate your 30 1 question? What is your question? 2 A I don't understand the question. What I am 3 reporting here is the words of a magazine that 4 reviewed Dr. Risebrough's paper. Now, are you 5 asking me what Nature meant or what Risebrough 6 meant, or what are you asking me? 7 Q (By Mr. McCrea) I am asking you what that is, 8 chlorinated biocides, and you perhaps have answered 9 it. My follow-up question -- 10 A DDT. 11 Q Any others? 12 A I am sure there are others, but I am not 13 knowledgeable in that area. 14 Q In the fourth and fifth sentences it make reference 15 to "aberration in calcium metabolism." Can you 16 explain what that means? 17 MR. FEATHERSTONE: I will object to the 18 form of the question. 19 MR. KIERNAN: Again, Mr. McCrea, the 20 document speaks for itself. It's obviously a 21 quote of a quote. You are asking the witness 22 for his understanding? 23 MR. McCREA: Right. What does 24 aberration and calcium metabolism mean? 25 A What it meant and -- I am going to apologize, I am 1 not a scientist, but what it meant is birds were 2 found to be producing eggs with very thin shells 3 and the egg shell made of calcium. There is a 4 calcium metabolism problem here. 5 Q (By Mr. McCrea) I notice you have a number of 6 footnotes and those run from footnotes one, two, 7 three and four on page 1, five and six on page 2, 8 seven and eight on page 4. Do you have those 9 documents to this day? 10 A No. 11 Q Are they in the possession of General Electric? 12 A I don't know. 13 Q In preparation for two previous depositions and in 14 preparation for this deposition, have you made any 15 inquiries of General Electric to see if those 16 documents are on file? 17 A No. 18 Q And the third paragraph beginning, "These excerpts 19 are representative of press coverage," in the 20 second sentence, reference is made they were first 21 identified in European birds by Swedish scientists. 22 Do you know the date that that occurred? 23 A I don't believe the article stated -- This was a 24 Gainesville, Florida, Sun of April 25th, and I 25 don't know if they reported any information beyond 31 32 1 what is quoted here. 2 Q In the next paragraph, it states, "A team of 3 University of California and Cornell University 4 scientists has determined that PCBs are five times 5 more powerful than DDT in hormone-destroying 6 activity." Can you explain to us what that means? 7 A I can explain to you my purpose in quoting it. 8 Q All right, sir, do it. 9 A Well, these articles and reports were quoted with 10 the purpose of calling attention to the developing 11 concern that there could possibly be a problem with 12 PCBs, and so I made no attempt to evaluate or 13 understand in any depth what these people were 14 saying. I am just putting them out as an exhibit, 15 here is what people are saying, the idea being it 16 would behoove us to look into this and see what is 17 going on and what, if anything, needs to be done 18 about it and that's the purpose for this paper, and 19 that's the reason they were quoted. 20 Q In that same paragraph you state that PCBs "have 21 been found in the milk of nursing mothers in 22 Colorado and in marine life off California." Do 23 you know the documentation on that finding that 24 PCBs were in the milk of nursing mothers in 25 Colorado? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 A 13 14 15 Q 16 17 18 19 A 20 21 22 23 24 A 25 MR. FEATHERSTONE: I object to the form of the question. He didn'1 say that, Mr. McCrea. As I read -- MR. McCREA: He -- MR. FEATHERSTONE: In this document you say -- MR. McCREA: You quote an excerpt. You're correct. This is not his statement. This is an excerpt that he is presenting to Mr. McAllister and others. My question, sir, All this says to me is that someone is alleging this to be the case and if that's so, let's get on and find out if there is a problem. (By Mr. McCrea) What research did General Electric undertake, if you know, with regard to that allegation that PCBs were found in the milk of nursing mothers in Colorado? I don't know. MR. KIERNAN: Is your question specifically with regard to that specific issue, or is it with regard -- MR. McCREA: That specific issue. I am not aware of research that may or may not have been done into the question of nursing mothers. 33 1Q 2 3 4 5 6A 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14' Q 15 16 17 18 19 20 A 21 22 23 24 25 (By Mr. McCrea) The next paragraph which you excerpt from the Gainesville, Florida, Sun, April 25, 1969, states that, "In vapor form these chemicals are highly toxic." Was that the position of General Electric? That was a statement made by a reporter of the Gainesville, Florida, Sun and I believe him to be in error here but, of course, "highly" is a somewhat subjective term. I don't think that adds a lot of significance to the statement that's in there. It does not represent a statement of General Electric. It's a statement of the Gainesville, Florida, Sun. Then in that same paragraph, it states, "Monsanto Company spokesmen say only their scientists and sales executives are studying the problem." What communications did you have with Monsanto, if any, after you prepared this document on October 30, 1969 to determine the focus of their research? We had -- We have seen quite a bit of the results of Monsanto's research over the years into these questions of -- I have read a number of their technical papers on this subject, specifically about the time they are looking at here, 1969. Monsanto wrote to GE expressing a concern that, a 34 ___________________________________________________________________________ 3 5 1 feeling perhaps, I should say, expressing a feeling 2 on the part of Monsanto that they should know more 3 about how much PCB might be getting into the 4 environment, how much -- They know how much is used 5 because they are the only producer but how much is 6 incinerated, how much is carried to landfills, and 7 questions of that sort. They are saying they would 8 like to get their arms around this, problem and know 9 the fate of -- the ultimate fate of these materials 10 better than they knew it at the time. 11 Q Did you pick up the phone and call Monsanto at 12 about the time you did this paper or shortly after? 13 A I don't recall. 14 Q Did you correspond with Monsanto? 15 A I have had correspondence with Monsanto at various 16 times on questions relating to PCBs, yes. I think 17 -- I couldn't produce 20 years later chapter and 18 verse. 19 Q With whom did you correspond? 20 A A number of different individuals. 21 Q Do you know their names? 22 A I think possibly I would name Papa George Wheeler, 23 Phocion, P-H-O-C-I-O-N, Parks, but I am not sure 24 whether he had any correspondence. I think 25 probably not. And there were probably one or two 36 1 others, but those are some of the people whose 2 names remain in my active file so to speak. 3 Q What was your purpose in communicating with Mr. 4 Papa George? 5 A On what occasion? 6 Q On the subject of PCBs. What year, if you can -- 7 MR. FEATHERSTONE: I will object to the 8 foundation of the question. You haven't 9 established what year, what conversations, 10 whether they only had one purpose when they 11 dealt with that before. 12 Q (By Mr. McCrea) What was your purpose in 13 communication with Mr. Papa George about 14 communicating about PCBs? 15 A I don't want to give you a trivial answer. We did 16 direct Monsanto at one time to find out, this is an 17 example, we wanted to find out to whom in General 18 Electric they had shipped pyranol or PCBs at 19 different times because we had no centralized 20 record of that subject and they complied with that 21 request. They told us where we had shipped it and 22 I guess that was mentioned in this memorandum of 23 how much material we used in -- That's a sample of 24 the type of things I talked to them about. 25 Q Did you talk with Mr. Papa George -- 1 A Excuse me. You are saying Papa George. I am not 2 sure he is the one that gave me this material, but 3 he is one point of contact that I know about. 4 Q You wrote Monsanto letters; correct, you 5 corresponded with Monsanto? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Monsanto corresponded with you? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Where are those letters? 10 A I don't know -- I don't know if my files have been 11 retained since I retired or not, so I can't answer 12 that question. 13 Q When is the last time that you saw that 14 correspondence? 15 A The last time I worked for G.E. was January 1st, 16 1982 . 17 Q You haven't seen it since then? 18 A Certainly not in Monsanto's end of it. 19 Q Have you seen your end of it? 20 A Yes. 21 Q When? 22 A I have copies. 23 Q At your home? 24 A At my home. 25 Q How many documents do you have at your home? 37 1 A Just my letter books. 2 Q What is a letter book? 3 A A letter book is a redundant filing system, and 4 it's for the convenience of the author of the 5 letter to find quickly in a chronological basis a 6 letter that he may have written on any subject, 7 whatever. 8 Q How many letter books do you have at your home? 9 A One covering each year of my employment going back 10 quite a number of years. 11 Q Are those in what type of binding, a three-ring 12 binder? 13 A Yes. 14 Q What do they have on the outside? 15 A The year for which the letters were accumulated. 16 MR. McCREA: Counsel, we will be filing 17 a request for that information as it relates 18 to PCBs. 19 20 (Recess from 4:35 to 4:45 p.m.) 21 22 Q (By Mr. McCrea) Mr. Nelson, category 2 on page 1 23 is titled, "Toxicity, Fire and Other Health 24 Hazards." In this section of your document, you 25 make reference to the cautionary notes which GE 38 \ 1 used for a long period of time regarding pyranol. \ 2 Then on page 2 you described those precautionary ' 3 notes. Is that a fair statement? 4 A Yes. 5 Q On page 2, you state, "Transformer pyranol can be 6 handled in the same manner as mineral oil." Can 7 you describe for us the toxicity of mineral oil as 8 you understood it when you wrote this document? 9 MR. KIERNAN: Again, so the record is 10 clear, the document contains a quote and as 11 before, it's clear from the context of the 12 document that it refers to a quote from 13 company literature. 14 Q (By Mr. McCrea) I agree. Can you describe the 15 toxicity of mineral oil as you understood it? 16 A I don't have any in-depth understanding of the 17 toxicity of mineral oil. 18 Q Is that a precautionary note that was prepared by 19 General Electric in which it is stated, 20 "Transformer pyranol can be handled in the same 21 manner as mineral oil," was that prepared by 22 General Electric? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Did General Electric intend purchasers of pyranol 25 to rely on that statement? 40 1 A If this was part of an instruction sheet that 2 accompanied communications to customers regarding 3 replacing pyranol, renewing it or drying the 4 transformer, that sort of thing, it was intended as 5 a communication to users of pyranol transformers, 6 yes. 7 Q When you make reference to mineral oil, did General 8 Electric at the same time that it manufactured and 9 sold transformers which contained pyranol also 10 manufacture and sell transformers which contained 11 mineral oil? 12 A Yes. The ratio is something like 95 or 98 to one, 13 the bulk of them being pyranol transformers. The 14 transformers were used primarily in those locations 15 where there was concern about possible fires so you 16 would find a pyranol transformer in the basement of 17 an office building, for example, or on the roof of 18 it, whereas putting a mineral oil transformer in 19 that same location would involve a degree of 20 hazard, maybe not very great but greater than that 21 of pyranol. 22 Q When'General Electric stated, "Transformer pyranol 23 can be handled in the same manner as mineral oil," 24 is that referring to the individuals who would have 25 occasion to make repairs of the transformers and ____________________________________________________________________________ 4 1 1 individuals who might have occasions to drain the 2 oil from a transformer? 3 A That's my impression. I think the wording is to 4 relate the subject to the experience of the typical 5 electric utility or industrial customer transformer 6 man, who is accustomed to handling mineral oil 7 because that's what most of the transformers are, 8 and so this was to let him know that he is not 9 moving into unfamiliar terrain here. He can 10 continue the good practices shown to work for 11 mineral oil while he is using pyranol. That's what 12 that means to me. I didn't write it. I am only 13 quoting it. 14 Q The next sentence states that, "Although continued 15 exposure to liquid pyranol may produce local skin 16 irritation, cleanliness among workmen constitutes 17 an adequate safeguard against such effects." Can 18 you describe any other risks from the exposure to 19 liquid pyranol on the skin, other than skin 20 irritation that you knew existed in 1969? 21 A No, not then or later. 22 Q You also state, "As with most volatile materials, 23 exposure to concentrated pyranol vapors in 24 unventilated rooms should be avoided". Do you know 25 what General Electric meant by an "unventilated 42 1 room"? 2 A I think they had no special meaning for it. A 3 building where -- a room where there was not enough '4 airflow to limit the concentration of the vapors. 5 Q What were your understandings of the effects -- 6 health effects to be avoided by this particular 7 statement that, "As with most volatile materials, 8 exposure to concentrated pyranol vapors in 9 unventilated rooms should be avoided"? What were 10 the consequences? 11 A I am not a medical scientist, and I have no basis 12 to elaborate on that statement. I was merely 13 quoting it here for the purpose of scene setting, 14 setting the stage for an understanding of this 15 subj ect. 16 Q There is also a caution, "Hydrogen chloride gas is 17 formed when pyranol is decomposed by an electrical 18 arc." Do you know the significance of that? 19 A Yes. 20 Q What is that? 21 A Hydrogen chloride gas combined with water to form 22 hydrochloric acid which is not a pleasant substance 23 to have around so that's why this caution note 24 appeared there. That's my understanding of it. 25 Q What about hydrogen chloride acid by itself without 43 1 being combined with water? 2 A Why do you ask that? 3 Q Just because I don't see any reference there to 4 water. 5 A What I had in my mind when I said water was that 6 the moisture in your lungs or in your eyes could 7 make it unpleasant and very irritating if you were 8 exposed to that gas. 9 Q Then the next paragraph makes reference to, "An 10 inquiry received by Mr. John J. Ferry"; F-E-R-R-Y. 11 Who is Mr. Ferry? 12 A At that time, he was a specialist in environmental 13 health engineering in Schenectady. 14 Q What was his education on this date, 1969 or 15 before? 16 A I don't know. 17 Q Is he still living? 18 A I don't know. 19 Q He made a communication to Ford Motor Company; is 20 that correct? By he, I mean Mr. Ferry. 21 A Not precisely. He caused them to receive an 22 answer, but he had the answer sent to them by the 23 medium transformer department that's stated in this 24 document incidentally. 25 Q That is incorporated by you as footnote 5; is that 1 correct? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Who is Mr. F.J. McCann? M-c-C-a-n-n? 4 A I don't know. He is a person who answered this 5 letter. 6 Q He wasn't a General Electric employee? 7 A Yes, he is so identified here. Medium transformer 8 department. 9 Q You don't know who that gentleman was or if he is 10 still working for General Electric today? 11 A No, I am sorry. 12 Q Mr. McCann wrote a letter to Ford and you took 13 excerpts from that letter and incorporated it into 14 your document; is that correct? 15 A Yes. That's essentially correct. 16 Q The excerpts you incorporated include the material, 17 pyranol, A50P524. What is that? 18 A That's the designation from General Electric's 19 material identification system. 20 Q Is that the pyranol which was used in transformers 21 manufactured by General Electric in 1969? 22 A Yes, some of them. 23 Q And it states the components to be 24 trichlorobiphenyl, 80 percent. What is 25 trichlorobiphenyl? 44 45 1 A That is a pyranol, a PCB with three chlorines in 2 the molecule. 3 Q The second component is trichlorobenzene, 14.5 4 percent. What is trichlorobenzene? 5 A It's a chlorinated benzene, that's all I know. 6 Q The third component is tetrachlorobenzene. .What is 7 that? 8 A It's another chlorinated benzene with four 9 chlorines instead of two or three. 10 Q The fourth component is diepoxide; 11 d-i-e-p-o-x-i-d-e, scavenger, 0.125 percent. What 12 is that? 13 A That is a chemical that is put in there to absorb 14 or somehow clean up trace elements of contaminants 15 that might have been in the fluid. It's a 16 stabilizer, it stabilizes the dielectric. I can't 17 tell you how it works because I am not a chemist, 18 but I know that's why it's in there. 19 Q You have excerpted the material and the components. 20 Then the third excerpt from Mr. McCann's letter is 21 toxicity. Define, if you will, the word, 22 "toxicity"? 23 A Toxicity means poisonous. 24 Q It says, "Ingestion - highly toxic"? is that 25 correct? 46 1 MR. KIERNAN: Is that what the document 2 says, is that what you are asking him? 3 MR. McCREA: Yes. 4 MR. KIERNAN: The document speaks for 5 itself. 6 MR. McCREA: It has to get on the 7 record. 8 MR. KIERNAN: Ask him if that's what the 9 document states. 10 MR. McCREA: Let me take advice of 11 counsel. 12 Q (By Mr. McCrea) Is that what the document states 13 under "Toxicity: Ingestion - highly toxic? 14 A Yes, it does. 15 Q What data did Mr. McCann use to arrive at that 16 information? 17 MR. FEATHERSTONE: Calls for 18 speculation. 19 A I don't know. 20 Q (By Mr. McCrea) Did you discuss the letter which 21 you incorporated into page 2 of your document with 22 Mr. McCann or anyone else? 23 A No. 24 Q Next under "Toxicity,," Mr. McCann states 25 "Inhalation - moderate." What data, facts or ____________________________________________________________________________4 7 1 evidence were relied upon by General Electric, if 2 you know, to make that communication to Ford Motor 3 Company? 4 A I don't know. 5 MR. FEATHERSTONE: Calls for 6 speculation. 7 Q (By Mr. McCrea) The third category under 8 "Toxicity" is "Respiratory tract - moderate." What 9 data, facts or evidence were relied on by General 10 Electric to make that communication to Ford Motor 11 Company? 12 A I don't know. 13 Q Underneath that listing of information, you have a 14 threshold limit value, 0.5 to 1 mg/cubic meter. 15 Can you explain what that means? 16 MR. KIERNAN: Again so the record is 17 clear, you say "you have." 18 MR. McCREA: General Electric. 19 MR. KIERNAN: This document is obviously 20 quoting a letter that was sent. The quote was 21 not drafted by Mr. Nelson and when you ask the 22 question that way, you seem to cast a 23 different spin on it. 24 MR. McCREA: Right. 25 Q (By Mr. McCrea) You excerpt from the letter of 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Q 13 14 15 16 17 18 A 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q 25 F.J. McCann to R.G. Anderson, Ford Motor Company, dated February 5, 1969 -- MR. FEATHERSTONE: I am going to throw in an obj ection. Everybody is misguoting it. The document says it was extracted. If that means quoted, it doesn't say that and if that means excerpted, it doesn't say it. It says extracted. MR. KIERNAN: Thank you. MR. McCREA: This is going to be a long evening. (By Mr. McCrea) In the information below, it says, "Estimated threshold limit value, 0.5 to 1 mg/cubic meter as extracted from the letter of F.J. McCann, General Electric, to R.G. Anderson, Ford Motor Company, dated February 5, 1969.11 What does that mean? The estimated threshold limit value, which is sometimes abbreviated TLV, is another measure of toxicity, and the number means something to a person versed in that science, but I don't any longer remember the definition of TLV so I can't put a gloss on that. Can you help us out with the milligram, what that is so a jury can understand it? 48 49 1 A It's a thousandth of a gram. 2 Q How many grams are there in an ounce? 3 A I don't know. 4 Q Approximately 30? 5 A I don't remember. 6 Q Then you have a category, "What products might be 7 formed in the event of fire or abnormal 8 temperature" as again extracted from the letter of 9 Mr. McCann. You make reference to HCL and C02, 10 hydrochloric -- Help me out. What's HCL? 11 A Hydrogen chloride and carbon dioxide. 12 Q On down on the bottom of that page there is the 13 statement, "Some people have sensitivity to pyranol 14 such that their skin erupts in a rash upon 15 exposure." Is that an extraction from the letter 16 of Mr. McCann, or is that your own communication? 17 A I am sorry. I no longer remember. 18 Q Then it states, "When discovered in the factory, 19 they are transferred to other lines of work and 20 their symptoms disappear." 21 A I believe that is my own statement and no longer an 22 extraction from the McCann letter. 23 Q Do you have any independent recollection of how 24 this discovery took place? 25 MR. FEATHERSTONE: Which discovery? 50 1 Q (By Mr. McCrea) Discovery in the factory, that is, 2 people with sensitivity to pyranol? 3 A This says when such condition is discovered, this 4 could be reported by the individual and he could 5 complain to his foreman, "Look, I have a rash on my 6 arm." 7 Q Did the people at General Electric inform their 8 workers in 1969 that some of them could be 9 sensitive to pyranol and could get a rash and if 10 they do, they should report it to the nurse? 11 A I don't know. 12 Q Did General Electric employ a dermatologist and 13 have one on call at the plant? 14 A At what plant? 15 Q The plants that used pyranol. 16 A They had a medical doctor, but I don't know if they 17 had a dermatologist. I guess I should say I don't 18 know. 19 Q The next statement which appears on page 3 as the 20 first complete paragraph states, "The broad class 21 of materials we are dealing with here, polycyclic"; 22 p-o-l-y-c-y-c-l-i-c, "aromatics contains known or 23 suspected carcinogens." What is a carcinogen? 24 A A carcinogen is a subject I believe to promote the 25 formation of cancers. 1 Q What is a known carcinogen? 2 A It's one that has ample documentation for its 3 property of forming cancers as distinguished fro 4 one that7s merely thought of as a possibility. 5 Q When did you as the author of this document dated 6 October 30, 1969 obtain the information about the 7 known carcinogens in the broad class of materials 8 we are dealing with here, polycyclic aromatics? 9 A I don71 recall. 10 Q What are polycyclic aromatics? Let me ask this. 11 Would that include back to page 2 12 trichlorobiphenyl? 13 A Yes, that would be one. 14 Q Would it include trichlorobenzene? 15 A I don't know. I am sorry. I am not a chemist. I 16 am quoting some scientific friend of mine here in 17 using this phrase. 18 Q Who provided that information to you about the 19 known or suspected carcinogens in this broad class 20 of materials? 21 A I can't say. I don't know whether it was from a 22 paper I read at the time or whether it was from 23 talking with one of our own in-house scientists. 24 It could have been either one. 25 Q The next statement says, "This aspect has been 52 1 considered in the industrial hygiene or medical 2 review of operations in at least one plant." What 3 do you mean "this aspect"? 4 A The fact that this broad class of materials 5 contains some carcinogens leads to the worry that 6 perhaps PCBs as a member of that class could be 7 themselves carcinogens so that the study of 8 employees exposed to PCBs included a search for any 9 abnormal incidents of a number of cancer cases. 10 Q Which plant are you referring to on page 3, 11 paragraph 1? 12 A So far as I recall, it must have been a capacitor 13 plant in Hudson Falls or Fort Edward. 14 Q Do you recall the industrial hygienist who 15 undertook that particular effort? 16 A No. 17 Q Do you recall any medical personnel who undertook 18 that particular effort? 19 A I don't . 20 Q The next category is category 3, "General Electric 21 Usage, in this paragraph, you make reference to 22 EMPIS. What does that stand for? 23 A Engineering Materials Properties Information 24 Sheets. 25 Q You state there are seven different formulations of ____________________________________________________________________________53 1 pyranol. Can you help us with that? What does 2 that mean? You have seven different combinations 3 of components in the PCB -- in the pyranol -- 4 excuse me? 5 MR. FEATHERSTONE: May I hear the 6 question back, please? 7 MR. McCREA: Let me restate it if I can. 8 Q (By Mr. McCrea) It says there are seven different 9 formulations of pyranol. Are you referring to 10 seven different combinations of components? 11 A Well, pyranol is a GE trade name for an askarel 12 fluid. Now, various pyranols were made with 13 different Aroclors purchased from Monsanto Company, 14 and then they would be blended with various 15 diluents or constituents depending upon the 16 properties needed for a particular application. 17 That's why we only list three Aroclor numbers.but 18 seven pyranol numbers. Have I made myself clear? 19 Q Yes. The second to the last line of that first 20 paragraph under section 3 makes reference to MTD. 21 Does that stand for medium transformer department? 22 A It does. 23 Q Do I understand that they actually sold pyranol 24 independently of the apparatus to customers? 25 A Yes. That's my understanding. 54 1 Q Did you ever visit any of your customers' 2 transformer repair shops where they would have a 3 failed transformer and bring it in for repair? 4 A No. 5 Q Did General Electric repair failed transformers 6 from the field? 7 A I don't know. 8 Q The next paragraph is a list of departments assumed 9 to be using pyranol and you have nine listed; is 10 that correct? 11 A Yes. 12 Q The last one is service shops. Where were the 13 service shops located? 14 A Various parts of the country. 15 Q What was the purpose of the service shop? 16 A To provide repair service for customers. 17 Q Did you visit any of these shops? 18 A I visited one, but I have forgotten why. I think 19 it was not in connection with a transformer 20 problem. 21 Q The third department listed is wire and cable 22 department. What did they do in the wire and cable 23 department at General Electric? 24 A They made some liquid-filled cables for high25 voltage application, underground I think, and __________________________________________________________ _________________ 55 1 that's -- You notice I put that with a question 2 mark. I was speculating that they might be 3 involved. 4 Q Was there some thought that pyranol may have been 5 used in the wire and cable casing? 6 A Yes, that was the reason for listing them, but I 7 don't know whether that was the case or not. 8 Q The next paragraph states, "Total usage has not 9 been ascertained. The transformer departments have 10 in recent years cut their relative use of pyranol, 11 limiting it to cases where the non-flammability 12 property is very important, such as indoor 13 applications." 14 When did General Electric, as you state here, 15 cut their relative use of pyranol, limiting it to 16 cases where non-flammability is important? 17 A The latter part of the 1960's. 18 Q Can you be more precise? 19 A No. 20 Q Who made the decision at General Electric to limit 21 or rather to cut the use of pyranol? 22 MR. KIERNAN: At what point in time are 23 you asking? 24 MR. McCREA: At the time they did it 25 here in the late sixties or whatever his 56 1 answer was. 2 Q (By Mr. McCrea) Who made that decision? 3 A The management of respective departments. 4 Q Who provided input to the managements of various 5 departments which led to that decision? 6 A Their own people. 7 Q What data was provided to the management personnel 8 which led to that decision? 9 A Are you calling for me to speculate on this? 10 Q No, sir. 11 A I will say no. 12 Q That's the perfect answer. If you don't know, you 13 don't know. 14 How did this information come to you when you 15 incorporated this into your document? 16 A I called somebody in the transformer department and 17 asked them. 18 Q Do you recall who that was? 19 A No. 20 Q In parentheses, you state, "They are using 21 aliphatic" a-l-i-p-h-a-t-i-c, "hydrocarbons, 22 especially 10-C." What is 10-C? 23 A On my own copy I struck it out because it was an 24 error. It's gone on my copy. 10-C is an industry 25 designation for a mineral oil, hydrocarbon oil and 57 1 it is commonly used for the bulk of transformers. 2 Q Management made a decision to cut the use of 3 pyranol and replace it with mineral oil? 4 MR, KIERNAN: Objection. That's not 5 what the witness testified to. 6 A No. May I? 7 Q (By Mr. McCrea) Sure. 8 A What I see here is a market trend could have been 9 influenced by economic considerations for whatever. 10 Bear in mind that pyranol costs several times as 11 much as mineral oil and -12 MR. KIERNAN: You are speculating; 13 aren't you? 14 A No. 15 Q (By Mr.. McCrea) When you say it's an economic 16 trend, you don't know if it was an economic trend; 17 do you? 18 A What I am saying is that I see -- I was endeavoring 19 to report here no case of where management made a 20 decision, let's cut back on pyranol. This is 21 simply, this is what happened. As the sixties 22 moved into the seventies, it turns out that less 23 pyranol was being used for reasons that I don't 24 know. 25 Q You don't know if it was because of economic 58 1 reasons, i.e. pyranol costing more, you don't know 2 that? It could be. 3 A No. 4 Q At the General Electric plant, Building Number 12 5 in Pittsfield, Massachusetts where they make what 6 we will call pyranol transformers, did they use PCB 7 as a heat transfer fluid to assist in drying out 8 the phases? 9 A I don't know. 10 Q Do you understand what a heat transfer fluid is? 11 A I know that the role of -- The PCB and the 12 transformer is an important part to transfer heat 13 from the core to the outside through the cooling 14 tubes and fins, but whether they use it in some 15 manufacturing process, that's something completely 16 foreign to my knowledge. 17 Q We can't overlap each other or she can't type it. 18 My question is, in the manufacturing of 19 transformers by General Electric in Building 12 at 20 Pittsfield or where ever else they were 21 manufactured, was there a phase in the manufacture 22 where the components were heated so as to eliminate 23 all moisture? 24 A I think I am not knowledgeable enough in 25 transformer manufacturing to answer such questions. 59 1 Q When you state that, "As a result of this trend, 2 the power transformer department at Pittsfield uses 3 pyranol in only about 5 percent of its units," you 4 don't have any data for previous years? 5 A No. 6 Q Page 4, section 4, titled, "Disposal Practices," 7 what was the source of your information for this 8 section in your document? 9 A It had to be someone at Hudson Falls in the 10 management of the capacitor department. 11 Q Do you know his name or her namej 12 A No, I don't recall at this date who I talked to. 13 Q You state that, "The industrial and power capacitor 14 department purchases approximately 10 million 15 pounds per year, of which 9 million pounds are 16 accounted for." That information was given to you 17 18 MR. FEATHERSTONE: Wait a minute. It 19 says "-- are accounted for in terms of 20 products shipped." Finish the sentence. 21 Q (By Mr. McCrea) "-- are accounted for in terms of 22 products shipped." That information was provided 23 to you by someone at Hudson Falls? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Then you describe what happens to the million 60 1 pounds that is not accounted for; correct? 2 A There is no million pounds not accounted for. 3 There is a million pounds not accounted for in 4 terms of product shipped. 5 Q I stand corrected. You explain what happens to the 6 million pounds that wasn't shipped out, 200,000 7 pounds went back to Monsanto; correct? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Do you know when General Electric started shipping 10 its PCBs back to Monsanto? 11 A No. 12 Q Are there any records or data that you know of that 13 would document that fact? 14 A No. 15 Q Who at General Electric when you last worked there 16 would be in the best position to document that 17 particular information? 18 A Well, I would think the general manager of the 19 components concerned could get you that answer, but 20 I can't give you the name of any individual. I 21 have been out of there eleven years. 22 Q Second paragraph, you state, "Badly contaminated 23 material hauled away by a New Jersey scavenger 24 (recommended by Monsanto)." Can you tell us who 25 the New Jersey scavenger was that hauled away 61 1 800,000 pounds of PCBs? 2 A No. 3 Q Do you know who provided you the information? 4 A The same answer as before. 5 Q And you don't know who at Monsanto recommended this 6 scavenger? 7 A No. 8 Q Can you help us out a little bit as to whether or 9 not this scavenger paid for this material, or was 10 it given to him so he could get valuable metals out 11 of it? What is your knowledge today regarding the 12 process that took place? 13 A I am sorry. I don't know. 14 Q If we had to locate that New Jersey scavenger, who 15 would be in the best position to help us out on 16 that? 17 A I would think Monsanto, they recommended the firm. 18 Q Well, you might be surprised. They might say it's 19 somebody at General Electric. If we had to locate 20 him, who would we go to? 21 MR. FEATHERSTONE: Do I need to object 22 to that statement, Mr. McCrea, or is it going 23 to be attorney colloquy on the record because 24 if it's part of your question, I'm going to 25 object to it. 1 MR. McCREA: I want to know how w 2 locate that person. 3 MR. KIERNAN: If you know. 4 A I don't know how you can locate him. I think I 5 have already said that. 6 Q (By Mr. McCrea) You don't know the location where 7 he operated, the New Jersey scavenger? 8 A Not beyond what's stated in New Jersey somewhere. 9 Q Do you know what the New Jersey scavenger did with 10 the contaminated material? 11 A I don't. 12 Q Did it ever come up in any discussions at General 13 Electric after 1969? 14 A Not in my presence. 15 Q Did General Electric ever express concern that 16 there was 800,000 pounds that went to this 17 scavenger in about the year 1969 and that might 18 possibly be contaminating the environment? 19 MR. KIERNAN: Mr. McCrea, you are asking 20 -- the question is if General Electric 21 expressed any concern to Mr. Nelson? 22 MR. McCREA: Yes, sir. 23 A I think the answer is self-evident. This whole 24 document is an expression of concern about PCBs. 25 Q (By Mr. McCrea) Just so I have an answer to my ____________________________________________________________________________63 1 question, after 1969 when you wrote this document, 2 did anybody at General Electric ever express any 3 concern about this 800,000 pounds of PCB getting 4 out into the environment? 5 MR. KIERNAN: Objection. It doesn't say 6 "getting out into the environment," Mr. 7 McCrea. The document speaks for itself. 8 Q (By Mr. McCrea) Now you have to remember the 9 question. 10 MR. KIERNAN: Do you want to ask a 11 proper question, or do you want to try to put 12 words in the document that are not already 13 there? Let him ask a proper question. This 14 is going pretty far afield and if you have a 15 proper question, ask it. 16 MR. McCREA: That might not be a proper 17 question, but I am going to ask it. 18 MR. KIERNAN: I am going to instruct him 19 not to answer. It's not in the document. 20 MR. McCREA: If you are instructing him 21 not to answer that question, I would like the 22 court reporter to separately certify it to the 23 U.S. District Court to get a ruling as to 24 whether or not Mr. Nelson needs to answer the 25 q u e s t i o n . 64 1 MR. KIERNAN: That's fine, Mr. McCrea. 2 If you want to ask a proper question, go ahead 3 and ask it. 4 MR. McCREA: The judge may rule it's an 5 improper question. 6 (Pause) 7 MR. McCREA: I am going -- 8 MR. KIERNAN: Mr. McCrea, so the record 9 is clear, what you are attempting to do is 10 insert words into the witness' answer into the 11 document that are not there. That7s what I am 12 objecting to. If you want to ask a proper 13 question, you can. He is not required to 14 accept your phraseology of "out into the 15 environment." 16 MR. McCREA: I said, "Did they ever 17 express concern." 18 MR. KIERNAN: Go ahead and ask your 19 question again. 20 Q (By Mr. McCrea) Did anybody at General Electric 21 after you authored this document ever express 22 concern to you that some of this 800,000 pounds of / 23 PCB given to a New Jersey scavenger as contaminated 24 material might be getting out into the environment? 25 MR. KIERNAN: Is your question limited 65 1 to PCB releases in general or just to this 2 800,000 pounds referred to in this one 3 document for this year from this one plant? 4 Is that what you are asking the witness? 5 MR. McCREA: The question is limited to 6 the 800,000 pounds. 7 MR. KIERNAN: That's already identified 8 as having been hauled away by a New Jersey 9 scavenger. This is a 1969 document. 10 MR. McCREA: That is correct. 11 MR. KIERNAN: Your question is limited 12 specifically to this 800,000 pounds? 13 MR. McCREA: That is correct. That's a 14 lot of PCB. 15 MR. KIERNAN: Your characterizations are 16 unnecessary. Please ask your question of the 17 witness and if he knows, he will answer. 18 MR. McCREA: Do I need to ask it a third 19 time? 20 MR. KIERNAN: You need to ask a proper 21 question. You have mangled it three times. 22 MR. FEATHERSTONE: Some of us would like 23 to go home tonight. 24 25 (Off the record conference) 66 1 2 (The last question was read by the 3 court reporter) 4 5 MR. KIERNAN: With the same objections, 6 Mr. Nelson, if you can answer it, go ahead. 7 A I would say that this was a small part of a broad 8 question. Here we have some waste products that 9 are turned over to the recommended scavenger, and 10 it was certainly my hope that this document would 11 generate a more pervasive and encompassing response 12 than to start digging test wells around this 13 scavenger's location. In other words, this was one 14 piece of information among others in this document 15 designed to stimulate interest in PCB and to make 16 sure that they received appropriate managerial 17 attention on the part of GE Company. That's why I 18 wrote it. I didn't have a large audience. I 19 didn't have people coming to me expressing 20 outrageous pieces of it. The document served its 21 purpose as the whole record shows of getting GE 22 fired up `on this subject, getting some activity, 23 okay? 24 Q (By Mr. McCrea) That's a very detailed 25 explanation. Unfortunately, it doesn't answer my ______________________________________________________________________ 67 1 question. My question is, did anybody express 2 concern to you about this quantity of PCBs escaping 3 into the environment? 4 MR. KIERNAN: Objection. Escaping into 5 the environment, Mr. McCrea? Where do you 6 find that characterization in the record? 7 MR. McCREA: That it might possibly 8 focus on somebody's attention that they have 9 got a problem. 10 MR. KIERNAN: For the record, for the 11 fifth time, it says "badly contaminated 12 material hauled away by New Jersey scavenger, 13 (recommended by Monsanto)." You may have your 14 opinions as to what happened. I don't think 15 anybody knows whether or not that material was 16 effectively disposed of, incinerated, safely 17 contained or whatever. You want to put a 18 different spin on it and that's what I am 19 objecting to. I think you are wasting time at 20 this point. 21 MR. McCREA: I agree with you; nobody 22 might agree as to what happened to it. That's 23 why I am asking the question. 24 MR. KIERNAN: Ask a proper question, 25 sir. 1 MR. McCREA: We will certify the 2 question. You are instructing him not to 3 answer? 4 MR. KIERNAN: I am not instructing him 5 not to answer. I am telling you to ask a 6 proper question. 7 Q (By Mr. McCrea) The question is, for perhaps the 8 sixth time, did anybody at General Electric express 9 concern to you that this quantity of PCB 10 contaminated material consisting of 800,000 pounds 11 might be getting out into and contaminating the 12 environment? 13 A Any such expression of concern would be superfluous 14 in that what this letter is doing is calling 15 attention to this million pounds a year, so I think 16 it's structuring an artificial hypothetical 17 situation to think if somebody coming to me and 18 saying, "What about this 800,000 pounds." 19 Q I want to know if they said that? 20 A Not that I remember. 21 Q Thank you. 22 A I hope we fixed that. 23 Q Continuing on, "Contained in scrapped small 24 industrial units disposed in town dump, where daily 25 burial is thought to be the practice, total waste 69 1 and scrap, approximately 60,000 pounds." Where is 2 that town dump? 3 A I am not sure whether it's in Fort Edward or Hudson 4 Falls but somewhere up there near the plants. 5 Q Was this information about the disposal practices 6 in the year preceding 1969 i.e. 1968, or do you 7 recall? 8 A I doubt if it was prepared with enough accuracy 9 that you could tell whether it was 1968 or 1969. 10 It's an informed estimate, an informed breakdown.of 11 what happens to the material. 12 Q Continuing on, you state, "At various times in the 13 past, other disposal methods have been used, 14 including sale to a manufacturer of insecticide." 15 Who was the manufacturer of insecticide to whom 16 General Electric sold its waste PCBs? 17 A I don't know. 18 Q When did General Electric sell its waste PCBs to a 19 manufacturer of insecticide? 20 A I don't know. 21 Q What was the purpose of the manufacturer of 22 insecticide buying PCBs? 23 MR. KIERNAN: Objection. 24 Q (By Mr. McCrea) If you know. 25 MR. KIERNAN: He is asking you if you 1 know the state of mind of the manufacturer. 2 the insecticide identified on page 4? ^ 3 He is asking if I know the technical reason, the^ 4 purpose? 5 Q (By Mr. McCrea) Technical purpose? 6 A Just a good vehicle for carrying insecticide to its 7 application. 8 Q How is it that PCBs are a good vehicle for carrying 9 an insecticide for application? 10 A It has to do with physical properties like 11 viscosity. 12 Q Explain to us the physical properties that make 13 PCBs a good carrier for an insecticide? 14 A I am afraid I don't know. I know historically 15 there were some sales of that sort. I presume they 16 were a good carrier; otherwise, they wouldn't have 17 been bought for that purpose. 18 Q If we -- 19 MR. FEATHERSTONE: I move to strike the 20 previous testimony as speculation. 21 Q (By Mr. McCrea) If we needed to locate that 22 manufacturer of the insecticide who purchased waste 23 PCBs from General Electric, who would we contact at 24 General Electric to get that information? 25 A I don't know. 71 1 Q You don't recall the source of that information? 2 A No. 3 Q Do you know the amount of PCBs that was sold to the 4 manufacturer of insecticide? 5 A No. Only what's stated here. 6 Q You go on to state, "At least one representative of 7 the Monsanto Company was recommending its use, 8 alone or in combination with mineral oils, as a 9 road spray to allay dust"; is that correct? 10 A Yes. That's what's stated. 11 Q How was it that it was combined with mineral oils? 12 MR. FEATHERSTONE: Obj ect to the form. 13 It doesn't say that at all. 14 Q (By Mr. McCrea) Alone or in combination. Do you 15 have any information on the reason that they would 16 use PCBs for road dust control, why Monsanto would 17 recommend that? 18 MR. KIERNAN: Again, if you know. This 19 is really getting far afield. 20 A No, I don't want to speculate on that. 21 Q (By Mr. McCrea) That does reference a letter; 22 does it not? 23 A Yes. 24 Q That would be footnote 7, "Letter from T.W. 25 Oneson"; O-N-E-S-O-N, or Oneson, "Monsanto Sales _______________________________ 7 2 1 Representative, to V. R. Mulhall, Canadian General 2 Electric Company Limited, Peterborough," dated 3 November 12, 1968; correct? 4 A Yes. 5 Q You don't know where these letters are located at 6 this time? 7 A No. 8 Q Then it goes on to say, "At Pittsfield, there has 9 been some experimentation with a decomposition 10 chamber which fires at 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit." 11 Who was in charge of that, Mr. Thayer? 12 A I think he had a lot to do with this development. 13 Whether he was in charge of it or not, I don't know 14 the managerial structure that well. 15 Q Did they get it up and going? 16 A Oh, yes. 17 Q Did they burn PCBs in the decomposition chamber? 18 A Yes. 19 Q For what period of time? 20 A I don't know. 21 Q Do you know when it stopped? 22 A No. 23 Q Do you know why it stopped? 24 A I believe there was some question about EPA rules. 25 This was -- The process that they developed at 1 Pittsfield was the one that pioneered the 2 application of this kind of process to the 3 destruction of PCB. 4 Q EPA didn't like it? 5 A But the government used it to destroy some Agent 6 Orange, for example, under contract with GE and 7 when it got to the actual rule making for disposal 8 of PCBs, there were some technicalities that 9 delayed the continued operation of that facility. 10 Whether or not -- I don't know what happened, 11 whether they resolved their difficulties with EPA 12 or they continued to furnish it or what. 13 Q Is that decomposition chamber still in existence? 14 A I don't know. 15 Q Did you ever watch it operate? 16 A No. 17 Q You say, "The bulk of contaminated material is 18 sold." To whom was it sold at Pittsfield? 19 A I don't know. 20 Q "At Rome," is that Rome, Georgia? 21 A Yes. 22 Q "Waste is buried on the company site." What did 23 they do down in Rome, Georgia? 24 A They build transformers. 25 Q Then you state, "Although nearby neighbors have 73 ___________________________________________________________________________ 74 1 shallow wells, no complaints have been registered.n 2 Now, how did General Electric communicate to the 3 neighbors the information about the disposal of 4 PCBs and alert them to be on guard against any 5 complaints that might result from PCB contamination 6 in the water? 7 MR. KIERNAN: Objection. 8 A I am not sure I understand the question. 9 Q (By Mr. McCrea) How did General Electric 10 communicate to these nearby neighbors that there 11 was PCB disposed on the Rome, Georgia site and that 12 their shallow wells might involve some PCB 13 contamination, or did they? 14 MR. KIERNAN: Objection. Do you have a 15 proper question, Mr. McCrea? You are asking 16 him whether or not General Electric did, or 17 are you assuming shallow wells are 18 contaminated? What is your question? 19 MR. McCREA: I am trying to find out 20 what General Electric did as a good neighbor. 21 MR. KIERNAN: Ask a proper question and 22 if Mr. Nelson knows, he can tell you. 23 Q (By Mr. McCrea) What did General Electric tell 24 those people? 25 A I am afraid I don't know. 1Q 2 3A 4Q 5A 6 7Q 8A 9Q 10 A 11 Q 12 A 13 14 Q 15 16 A 17 Q 18 A 19 20 21 22 23 Q 24 25 A That is in reference to a letter from J.S. Anderson, RECO, to Mr. V.R. Mulhall; correct? Yes. Dated December 20, 1968. Who is J.S. Anderson? Dr. Anderson was at that time a consultant in plant pollution control. Who is V.R. Mulhall? I don't know. Where is Mr. Anderson located today? CGE means Canadian General Electric. Where is Dr. Anderson located today? I don't know. At that time, he was in Schenectady, New York, but that was many years ago. Did you ever visit Rome, Georgia to eyeball that particular disposal of PCBs? No. Your information comes from the letter? Yes. MR. KIERNAN: For the record, it says, "Waste is buried on the company site." It doesn't say PCBs are buried there. MR. McCREA: That's correct. (By Mr. McCrea) Did they use PCBs at Rome, Georgia? I don't remember. I think so. I am not sure. 75 76 1 Let's just say I don't know. 2 Q And this section number 4, are you -- Are you 3 focusing on PCBs on this section, or are you 4 focusing on other chemicals? 5 A Section 4? 6 Q Section 4. Are you focusing on chemicals other 7 than PCBs when you refer to waste? For instance, 8 let's look at the third sentence of the first 9 paragraph, "Waste is handled in the following 10 manner." Are you referring to something other than 11 PCBs up there? 12 A In answer to that question, those paragraphs all 13 refer to the industrial and power capacitor 14 department in New York State, and they have nothing 15 to do with practices in Rome, Georgia. 16 Q Then paragraph 5, Questions To Be Answered, you 17 state, "It is apparent from the above discussion 18 that our knowledge of chlorinated diphenyl 19 formulations and possible deleterious effects is 20 not as complete as is desirable in today's climate 21 of concern for maintaining and improving the 22 quality of life in its environmental aspects with 23 regard to worker protection and in terms of product 24 safety." Is that your conclusion? 25 A Y e s . 77 1 MR. KIERNAN: What is your question, is 2 that what he stated at the time? 3 MR. McCREA: I asked if that was his 4 conclusion. 5 A That is an introduction to my conclusion, okay? 6 Q (By Mr. McCrea) All right, sir. That was your 7 thought? 8 A Yes. 9 MR. KIERNAN: I take it, Mr. McCrea, you 10 don't want to read the rest of the conclusion.' 11 You want to read the sentence? 12 MR. McCREA: It's there in the document. 13 I will be happy to read it. You mean starting 14 with "Nevertheless"? How far? 15 MR. KIERNAN: Ask your next question. 16 MR. McCREA: I would be happy to read 17 it. 18 MR. KIERNAN: I am sure you have read it 19 before. 20 MR. McCREA: Let's read it for counsel. 21 Q (By Mr. McCrea) "Nevertheless, it is not 22 responsive to suggest that other materials be 23 substituted until all doubts are resolved. It 24 must be remembered that virtually all applications 25 of pyranol are the end product of intensive 78 1 research directed toward finding the best material 2 for the application, that substitution would 3 involve trade-offs, not only with performance 4 factors and economic factors but with product 5 safety considerations themselves, i.e. flammability 6 and explosion possibilities .11 7 What were the economic factors? 8 A The product cost. 9 Q Cost? 10 A Yes. 11 Q It would cost more; right? 12 A It costs something to change and process. 13 MR. McCREA: Would you like for me to 14 read any more? 15 MR. KIERNAN: No. Do you have another 16 question? 17 Q (By Mr. McCrea) Going to the next page, page 5, I 18 am skipping over some of the paragraph but I would 19 like to go to your quote of Dr. Risebrough. You 20 say, "Dr. Risebrough has shown by direct 21 intra-muscular inj ection that PCB has the capacity 22 to produce sublethal physiological effects in 23 birds." Where did that information come from? 24 A It's in the literature. 25 Q Is that referenced to any of the footnoted 79 1 information? 2 MR. KIERNAN: If it helps, the document 3 says in the work previously cited. The 4 document you are reading from, Mr. McCrea. 5 MR. McCREA: Which document is that? 6 Q (By Mr. McCrea) I don't think we need to spend 7 time on it. You are quoting the document; correct? 8 You are quoting from a document? 9 A Yes. 10 Q What is a sublethal physiological effect? 11 A Something that wouldn't kill you but it shows an 12 effect. It makes a change. 13 Q More on that page, which would be a subindentation 14 on the second full paragraph, you state, "Monsanto 15 has a research program to identify the compounds 16 reported to be PCB by the Swedish and California 17 scientists." To whom are you referring when you 18 state the Swedish scientists? 19 A Dr. Jensen and Risebrough. 20 Q Later on in that paragraph, it says, "Special 21 emphasis is being paid to endocrinological"; 22 e-n-d-o-c-r-i-n-o-l-o-g-i-c-a-1, "effects, mineral 23 metabolism and reproductive physiology." Is that 24 Monsanto that's paying attention to that? 25 A Yes. 1 Q What is meant by endocrin -2 A Something that effects the endocrine glands. 3 Q Do you understand that, or are you just quotiri 4 that's referenced in document 1; correct? 5 A Yes. 6 Q That information would be obtained on document 1 7 which is, "From a statement by the Monsanto 8 Company, St. Louis Missouri, 3-3-69"? Do I have 9 that correct? 10 A Yes, I think. I am not sure if that's the same 11 source. 12 Q On page 6, you make reference to European and 13 Japanese suppliers. When you wrote this document 14 on October 30, 1969, did you have information about 15 the Yusho poisoning in Japan or the Japanese ate 16 rice oil that was contaminated with PCBs that had 17 high levels of PCDFs or furans in it? 18 A That is difficult for me to answer. I knew a lot 19 of the Yusho incident at this time or shortly 20 thereafter -- I don't know -- unless there is some 21 internal evidence in this page which I haven't 22 found yet that says I didn't know about it. 23 Q To your knowledge, Mr. Nelson, did anybody at 24 General Electric have direct contact with the 25 Japanese regarding the Yusho poisoning? 81 1 A Dr. Ed Simons and I both attended a meeting in 2 Chicago where he reported on his results and said 3 -- and that's where it came out, the contaminant 4 PCDF came out at that meeting in Chicago. There 5 may have been some scientist to scientist contact 6 between others in GE and the Japanese, but the only 7 contact I had was that rather tenuous contact of 8 hearing him talk at a meeting. 9 Q Section 6, first paragraph, you make reference to a 10 possible PCB rider onto an anti-DDT bill. What 11 information did you have as of October 30, 1969 12 about legislation regarding PCBs that would be 13 tacked onto an anti-DDT bill? 14 A I had no such information. This was pure 15 speculation at the time. 16 Q By you? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Did you follow up on that in 1970 and '71? 19 A I noticed what happened to the DDT. 20 Q Are you aware of proposed legislation by 21 Congressmen Ryan regarding PCBs in 1971 which would 22 effectively had placed a ban on PCBs? 23 A Congressman Ryan from what state? 24 Q I think of New York or New Jersey. I am not sure 25 which. 82 1 A I don't recall. 2 Q Do you know if General Electric actively lobbied 3 against the passage of Congressman Ryan's bill? 4 A I can't answer that without -- Can you show me 5 Congressman Ryan's bill? 6 Q I don't have it here. 7 A I don't think so. 8 MR. KIERNAN: It's difficult for him to 9 answer if he said he didn't know what the bill 10 is. 11 A I don't know what was in thebill. 12 Q (By Mr. McCrea) Are you aware of an organized 13 lobbying effort by the industry with regard to 14 proposed legislation to ban PCBs? 15 A At what time frame? 16 Q Nineteen seventy-one. 17 MR. KIERNAN: Objection also in terms of 18 "the industry." What are you referring to? 19 MR. McCREA: Manufacturers of PCB like 20 McGraw-Edison, Dow-Corning, Westinghouse, 21 Monsanto. Those are not manufacturers of PCB? 22 A Manufacturers of equipment containing PCBs and the 23 manufacturer of PCB is Monsanto Company. 24 Q (By Mr. McCrea) Are you aware of any organized 25 lobby by the industry to oppose legislation that 83 1 would ban PCBs in 1971 and take it off the market? 2 MR. KIERNAN: Objection; vague and 3 confusing but if you can answer the question. 4 A We were involved in correspondence with the EPA on 5 each and every proposed rule making. EPA and FDA, 6 whenever one of them proposed a rule on PCBs, we 7 studied it and made recommendations about it and I 8 am sure other industries, I believe other companies 9 to some extent took similar action. Perhaps we 10 were the most thorough. rt -- '71, I can't think 11 of any joint activity between companies which would 12 have taken place. If it took place at all, it 13 would be with the trade organizations. I would say 14 no, I don't know of any such joint effort to 15 oppose. The efforts mainly were to get a proper 16 degree of recognition of the problems involved and 17 for any limits that were proposed to be reasonable 18 limits. This was the kind of thing -19 Q (By Mr. McCrea) Did you ever visit a senator or a 20 Congressman of the U.S. Congress to discuss issues 21 relating to PCBs? 22 A No. 23 Q Did you ever talk to anybody, any political 24 official about PCBs, whether it's a local health 25 officer or an aide to the President of the United 84 1 States? 2 MR. KIERNAN: Can you clean the question 3 up a little bit? Any political official, any 4 governmental entity at any time at any place? 5 Q (By Mr. McCrea) Did you have any political 6 contacts concerning PCBs, if so, tell us when and 7 what took place? 8 MR. KIERNAN: Same objection to the 9 term, "political contacts." 10 Q (By Mr. McCrea) Politicians, public servants? 11 MR. KIERNAN: Politicians and public 12 servants, that's a broader category. 13 Q (By Mr. McCrea) Let's go with public servants. 14 Have you ever had any contact with public servants 15 regarding any matters -16 A Are you including correspondence in your definition 17 of contact? 18 Q Absolutely. 19 A I wrote letters of comment every time I thought 20 there was a question they could use our help on. 21 Q That's in your files at home? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Did you visit with anybody, ever have lunch with 24 anybody, sit down and talk to them about the 25 problem? 85 1 A I don't recall that, no. 2 MR. KIERNAN: Mr. McCrea, so the record 3 is clear, when you say anybody, who are you 4 referring to? I still don't understand your 5 question. 6 Q (By Mr. McCrea) Politicians, mayors, any elected 7 officials. 8 MR. KIERNAN: Your question is 9 restricted to any elected official? 10 Q (By Mr. McCrea) Any elected official, did you ever 11 meet with them on an informal basis to discuss 12 matters relating to PCBs? 13 A Specifically PCBs? 14 Q Right. 15 A No, I don't think so. 16 Q Do you know anybody that did from General Electric? 17 A We arranged for a visit by -- Let's see. I guess 18 he was the -- I can't think of the man's 19 responsibility but he was a -- No. I would have to 20 say no. Sorry. 21 Q I realize it's getting kind of late, but I am about 22 to finish. 23 Paragraph 2 under section 6, a proposed 24 program, you suggest employment of an outside 25 consultant. 1 A I did. 2 Q Was an outside consultant employed, Mr. Nelson? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Who was the outside consultant? 5 A Dr. Horace Gerard. 6 Q Is he a Ph.D. toxicologist or an M.D. toxicologist, 7 if you know? 8 A I don't know. 9 Q What services did he provide to General Electric 10 pursuant to his consultation agreement? 11 A Literature searches primarily. 12 Q Did you read the product which he produced? 13 A No. 14 Q Did he provide written materials to General 15 Electric? 16 A Not to my recollection. 17 Q What did he do? 18 A He made verbal reports. 19 Q To whom? 20 A I don't know, but I think it's legitimate to 21 suggest that it might have been Ed Deck, who was 22 the man who engaged him. It was probably to him 23 that he talked. This whole thing came to an 24 unfortunate end when Gerard was killed in a plane 25 crash. 86 87 1 Q So that was perhaps had he not had an untimely 2 death, he would have -3 A Perhaps there would have been a formal report. 4 Q Did anybody replace him as a consultant? 5 MR. KIERNAN: At any time? 6 Q (By Mr. McCrea) To follow up on the work he had 7 commenced? 8 A We followed up on it in-house, a library of PCBs 9 was created at corporate research and development. 10 Q Who was the medical doctor for General Electric who 11 oversaw the workers exposed to PCBs in the 1960's 12 and 1970's? 13 A Oversaw the study? 14 Q Oversaw their health. 15 MR. KIERNAN: I am not so sure I 16 understand the foundation of your question. 17 Are you referring to something in the document 18 that's been marked as Exhibit 1? 19 MR. McCREA: No. 20 MR. KIERNAN: Is there some particular 21 medical document you have in mind? 22 MR. McCREA: No. 23 A Is there some particular GE site that you have in 24 mind? 25 Q (By Mr. McCrea) Hudson Falls capacitor _______________________________________ ___________________ 88 1 manufacturing plant, the Pittsfield, Massachusetts 2 transformer manufacturing plant. 3 A I have met the gentleman, the doctor who at that 4 time was a GE doctor at Hudson Falls. 5 Unfortunately, I don't recall his name. At 6 Pittsfield, I have no idea who it would have been. 7 Q Are you familiar with a format study done by a 8 Professor David Wegman; W-E-G-M-A-N? 9 MR. KIERNAN: What's the date of that 10 study? 11 MR. McCREA: Nineteen eighty-one. 12 MR. KIERNAN: Is there some publication 13 you are referring to? 14 MR. McCREA: I am asking him if he is 15 familiar with his work. 16 MR. McCREA: Started about '81.. 17 A No. 18 Q (By Mr. McCrea) Do you know the name Professor 19 David Wegman; have you ever heard it? 20 A I may have run across it, but I can't remember 21 after all these years. 22 Q While you were employed at General Electric, did 23 you learn at some point in time about a chemical 24 called polychlorinated dibenzofuran? 25 A Yes. 89 1 Q What did you learn about it and when? 2 A Chlorinated -- I think it's chlorinated 3 dibenzofuran. The other term may be quoted 4 correct. As far as I know, this was a contaminant 5 in some processes of manufacturing PCBs notably in 6 the kanachlor; k-a-n-a-c-h-l-o-r, are produced in 7 Japan which was involved in the Yusho incident, and 8 that's the most important thing I know about it. 9 That's a contaminant and in some process of 10 manufacturing PCBs, it is not a contaminant in the 11 Monsanto process except in very minuscule fraction, 12 and I know further that tests on transformers have 13 demonstrated that PCB transformers do not evolve 14 PCB as they age, so that's about the extent of my 15 acquaintanceship. 16 Q What is that data to which you just referred to 17 testing of transformers shows no increased level of 18 chlorinated dibenzofurans with age? 19 A It was reported to me by a representative of our 20 corporate research and development operation in 21 Schenectady. 22 Q When was that reported to you? 23 A I don't recall. 24 Q In a material safety data sheet from General 25 Electric, dated May 1980 for Aroclor 1254, the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7A 8Q 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 following statement is made, this is under section 9, Special Precautions and Comments. "PCBs and especially used PCBs can contain higher toxicity contaminants.11 Does that statement sound familiar to you? And I will be happy to show you the document. May I see it? (Handing). MR. TATE: Could you read the first part of that question back? (The last question was read by the court reporter) MR. KIERNAN: I don't want to mark this as an exhibit, but I will be happy to show you the document. It's the section 9, second page, the very last sentence. MR. FEATHERSTONE: Can you read the whole question back? (The last question was read by the court reporter) (Pause) 90 91 1 A I don't see the statement. 2 Q (By Mr. McCrea) It's the very last sentence on the 3 page. 4 A Oh, "And especially"? I don't know the providence 5 of that last statement. 6 Q Do you know what General Electric is referring to 7 when they say, "PCBs and especially used PCBs can 8 contain higher toxicity contaminants"? 9 A I don't know the basis for that statement. 10 Q Let's take a five-minute break and then we will -- 11 hopefully, I think I am through. 12 13 (Recess from 6:20 to 6:30 p.m.) 14 15 Q (By Mr. McCrea) Mr. Nelson, we are back on the 16 record. What we are going to do is to show you 17 documents, and they all have an exhibit number on 18 them, and we will identify the exhibit number and 19 we will simply ask you if that document is a 20 General Electric document. 21 A Do you have a definition for a General Electric 22 document? 23 Q A document that was prepared by General Electric, a 24 document that was in the files of General Electric, 25 that was sent to General Electric, that was 92 1 something that was authored or received by General 2 Electric. I don't know what else you can say about 3 it. 4 MR. KIERNAN: We have had a discussion 5 off the record. Now perhaps it's time to put 6 it on the record. Let me ask you first, where 7 do these documents come from? 8 MR. McCREA: Pikeville, Kentucky. 9 MR. KIERNAN: Litigation in another case 10 that's still ongoing? 11 MR. McCREA: Yes. 12 MR. KIERNAN: Another case that you are 13 involved in? 14 MR. McCREA: Right. 15 MR. KIERNAN: A personal injury case 16 against General Electric and other 17 manufacturers? 18 MR. McCREA: You settled. You are out 19 of it. 2 0 MR. KIERNAN: What you are asking Mr. 21 Nelson, who had retired from General Electric 22 eleven years ago, to authenticate this 23 three-foot stack of documents you have over 24 here? 25 MR. McCREA: Yes. 93 1 MR. KIERNAN: In this case you have 2 submitted 900 requests for submissions to the 3 Defendants. 4 MR. McCREA: Yes. 5 MR. KIERNAN: And the judge has ruled on 6 these. 7 MR. McCREA: Yes. 8 MR. KIERNAN: It's my understanding that 9 the Magistrate has restricted the number of 10 requests for admissions upon Defendants' 11 motion based on the fact that there were so 12 many requests to admit. Is it now your 13 intention to ask Mr. Nelson to admit all the 14 documents the Magistrate ruled on that you 15 could not submit requests to admit on? 16 MR. McCREA: Yes. 17 MR. KIERNAN: Do any of these documents 18 have Mr. Nelson's name on it? Can you select 19 those out to show them to the witness? 2 0 MR. McCREA: I just questioned him for 21 four hours on one. 22 MR. KIERNAN: Do you have other 23 documents with his name on them that you would 24 like this witness to authenticate? 25 MR. McCREA: David, you are correct in _______________________________________________ ________________ 94 1 what you say, but I also want this record to 2 show that in every case in which I have been 3 involved, whether it7s State Court or Federal 4 Court, the judge has always encouraged the 5 attorneys for the parties to sit down and 6 authenticate documents as a courtesy to the 7 court, and I think where we got off track was 8 in not following up on that effort which I 9 initiated with Bruce Featherstone and others 10 while I was in Las Vegas but then we went our 11 separate ways and couldn't follow up on it. 12 My proposal is to do exactly that as a 13 courtesy to the court. The court really 14 shouldn't have to wade through all this 15 paperwork, and what we should do to 16 accommodate the court is agree to meet at a 17 designated time and place with appropriate 18 secretarial staff, set up an agenda and 19 authenticate documents, number documents, make 20 sure that our document number 432 is the same 21 as your document 432 and then get everything 22 organized with respect to the documents, 23 including attachments, exhibits to depositions 24 which, if we don't get that sorted out, could 25 create a very difficult administrative problem _________________________________________________ ________ 95 1 for everybody, including the court. That's 2 all I am proposing. I proposed that when I 3 was in Las Vegas because that's the way I do 4 things, and we will authenticate information 5 for you. It's a two-way street. You 6 authenticate information from us. 7 We have a set of documents which 8 everybody agrees on. When you are looking at 9 General Electric document number 10 we all 10 agree that's General Electric document number 11 10, there's no confusion. When you are 12 looking at some other voluminous document from 13 our voluminous file, we all agree that's the 14 document. Does it have four pages, no, it has 15 five pages, we iron those problems out at that 16 point in time. What about this notation 17 that's entered on here. Let's redact it. 18 Let's take it off. And we sit down and we 19 just go through that whole procedure with a 20 court reporter, with a secretary, whatever 21 else, which I think would probably take two 2 2 full days. 23 MR. KXERNAN: I think this issue has 24 been visited once in this litigation. As I 25 stated at the outset, I think the Magistrate _____________________________________________________________ 9 6 1 has already ruled upon it. The process you 2 state is correct; I think there was an attempt 3 earlier to compromise on a number of documents 4 because you had submitted so many. This is 5 the first time I heard of this proposal from 6 you, and we were not advised of it prior to 7 the deposition. I think it's unfair for any 8 witness, particularly this witness, this late 9 at night to dump these documents in front of 10 him. 11 MR. McCREA: That's what I am trying to 12 avoid. 13 MR. KIERNAN: If you want to propose 14 something like that, go ahead and write a 15 proposal to us and we will see if we can. I 16 don't think any of these documents can be 17 authenticated by Mr. Nelson. He obviously -- 18 MR. McCREA: Will you agree in good 19 faith to sit down with us and do just exactly 20 that? It's not just authenticating documents 21 but it's getting documents so that everybody 22 knows exactly what the document is. It sounds 23 simple but it's not. 24 MR. KIERNAN: My understanding is what 25 happened is Plaintiff submitted so many 97 1 documents there was an effort to reduce the 2 number. 3 MR. McCREA: What happened was that we 4 didn't get together in Las Vegas because we 5 just -- our times didn't coincide and then 6 Paul felt that we had to do this because we 7 didn't get together on the meeting, which is 8 nobody's fault, it's not my fault, it's 9 nobody's fault but we just didn't get 10 together. 11 MR. KIERNAN: What I would propose, if 12 you have specific documents for a specific 13 witness such as the document used in the 14 deposition here today, Nelson Deposition 15 Exhibit 1, and you want to ask the witness to 16 look at it to authenticate it, I am not going 17 to object to that but I will object to asking 18 a 72-year-old witness who last worked for GE 19 eleven years ago to sit here and give his 2 0 opinion on a stack of three-foot documents, 21 you know I am going to instruct Mr. Nelson not 22 to sit here and be put through that. 23 MR. McCREA: You can avoid that if you 24 will agree to sit down and authenticate 25 documents. 98 1 MR. KIERNAN: I think that process was 2 already done. I was not involved in that -- 3 MR. McCREA: You weren't. I didn't know 4 you were in this case, all right? 5 MR. KIERNAN: If you will -- 6 MR. McCREA: Are you from Williams & 7 Connolly? They sent those other mean guys out 8 there. 9 MR. KIERNAN: If you want to send a 10 letter to us outlining your concerns and 11 problems, we will get back to you. 12 MR. McCREA: I want an agreement to do 13 it. 14 MR. KIERNAN: I am not going to put an 15 agreement on it. 16 MR. McCREA: I don't think that's good 17 faith. 18 MR. KIERNAN: You can say whatever it 19 is. I think we are faced with a witness 2 0 tonight who we are holding -21 MR. McCREA: I want to do something 2 2 simple, sit down and organize all these 23 documents; all right? Now we have Nelson 24 Exhibit 1, that isn't going to mean anything 25 when we come to this trial, okay? That ________________________________________________________________99 1 document needs to be put in chronological 2 sequence; otherwise, it's going to be chaos, 3 okay? And that's not -- that is not going to 4 make the judge happy. 5 MR. KIERNAN: I think we have at least 6 resolved the issue for now, which is I am not 7 going to permit Mr. Nelson to be held here all 8 night and go through three feet of documents. 9 Based on everything we have said so far, 10 do you have any other questions for Mr. 11 Nelson? 12 MR. McCREA: Just a second, David. I 13 don't like this. I am making a reasonable 14 offer. It's totally reasonable. All I am 15 asking you to do and counsel for Westinghouse 16 and counsel from Monsanto is agree to meet and 17 authenticate documents, period. That is a 18 very reasonable offer. It will save your 19 witness and save lots of other witnesses a lot 2 0 of time and save us time and it's an 21 accommodation to the court. 22 MR. KIERNAN: My stance is that's 23 already been done here. There are 900 24 requests already submitted. I am not saying 25 that cannot be done in the future. Why don't ________________________________________________________________10 1 you proposal this at some other time, other 2 than the deposition of this witness. Why 3 don't we move on. 4 MR. McCREA: Will you -- 5 MR. KIERNAN: I am not going to agree to 6 be bound by anything tonight, Mr. McCrea. 7 That's the answer. 8 MR. BRADLEY: Are you going to instruct 9 him not to respond to any questions regarding 10 authentication of General Electric documents? 11 MR. KIERNAN: If they do not have his 12 name on it, I am not going to hold the witness 13 here for a three-foot stack of documents in 14 light of the Magistrate's rulings in this 15 case. I don't think it's fair to the witness. 16 MR. BRADLEY: My question is, are you 17 going to instruct him not to answer? 18 MR. KIERNAN: If you have a document 19 right now that has his name on it, 2 0 MR. BRADLEY: Let's start with 452. 21 MR. KIERNAN: Does it have his name on 22 it? 23 MR. BRADLEY : No. 24 MR. KIERNAN: Then I will instruct the 25 witness not to answer and not to answer to any 1 of the documents. I am not going to hold him 2 here. 3 MR. FEATHERSTONE: On behalf of 4 Monsanto, I would like to say something -- two 5 things. First of all, in response to the 6 general offer from McCrea to sit down and talk 7 about documents, I will respond to that but 8 not in the context of this dposition since 9 it's not my witness and not my documents we 10 are talking about. 11 Second point is if we are going to put 12 documents in front of the witness as we were 13 about to do, I would appreciate it so that 14 we can follow it somehow in the record that it 15 have more than just an exhibit number, that 16 it's got a date on it or a Bates number, you 17 say what that is. 18 MR. McCREA: Bruce, that's exactly what 19 can be accomplished if we all sit down because 20 what you do is you have columns, exhibit 21 numbers, Bates numbers, pages -- 22 MR. FEATHERSTONE: Can ve go off the 23 record? 24 MR. McCREA: Yes. 25 1 (Off the record conference) 2 3 MR. TATE: In response to Mr. McCrea's 4 statement as to a general invitation to all 5 three Defendants here to participate in the 6 proceeding which he is describing for 7 authentication on behalf of Westinghouse, I 8 think it's an inappropriate proceeding for us 9 to address this issue for Westinghouse, and it 10 is certainly something we are not prepared to 11 discuss at this time. 12 MR. McCREA: You say it is appropriate? 13 MR. TATE: Inappropriate. 14 MR. KIERNAN: Do you have any further 15 questions for Mr. Nelson? 16 MR. McCREA: Mr. Nelson, I have no 17 further questions, and I think that we have 18 gotten everything discussed that heeds to be 19 discussed and hopefully we can get this 2 0 resolved and if you all would just go back to 21 your clients, tell them what we have proposed 22 and I think we should defer until some point 23 down the line. I don't think we are at a 24 point now where we can organize these 25 d o c u m e n t s f o r t r i a l a n d d o w n t h e l i n e w e t a k e 1 all these depositions, it's going to be quite 2 a job, that we agree to do it at that point. 3 MR. KIERNAN: Any questions? 4 MR. McCREA: Do I have your commitment 5 that you will take this to your clients? 6 MR. KIERNAN: Yes. 7 MR. McCREA: And give us an answer 8 promptly? 9 MR. KIERNAN: Yes, yes, I will take it 10 to my client and get back to you. 11 12 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. FEATHERSTONE 13 14 Q (By Mr. Featherstone) Would you please look at the 15 fourth page of Exhibit 1? It's actually a page 16 that's numbered 3. 17 A Yes. 18 Q Mr. McCrea asked you about the first full paragraph 19 at the top of that page, the one that talks about 2 0 polycyclic aromatics. My first question to you is, 21 this information in this paragraph came from either 22 someone else or some document? is that correct? I 23 am talking about the paragraph that begins, "The 24 broad class of materials." 25 A Yes. The answer to your question is yes, it came 1 from somewhere else. 2 Q In 1969 and the time you wrote Exhibit 1, did you 3 have any information that PCBs in particular were a 4 known or suspected carcinogen? 5 A No. 6 Q Let me go to the next page then, the page that's 7 marked number 4. Mr. McCrea asked you about 8 footnote number 7 which is a letter dated November 9 12, 1968, in particular about that part of the 10 document in the text where it talks about a 11 representative of the Monsanto Company recommending 12 its use alone or in combination with mineral oils 13 as a road spray to allay dust. Do you know 14 whether, in fact, General Electric of Canada used 15 PCBs or sold PCBs for use as a road spray? 16 A I have no information that they did that. 17 Q Page number 6 of Exhibit 1, first full paragraph at 18 the top talks about a letter from Mr. Scoville to a 19 French company called Prodelec; do you see that? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Did General Electric do business with Prodelec for 2 2 PCBs? 23 A I don't think so. I think our only source of PCBs 24 was Monsanto. He was trying to get us in 25 perspective on the question. Do you know Scoville? 1 Q No, I don't. I was going to ask you who he was and 2 how he related to your job in 1969? 3 A Mike Scoville was managing engineer for the 4 capacitor department at that time, and he didn't 5 relate to my job at all. e Q He is identified in this document as product safety 7 representative. 8 A Then he must have already been replaced. He was 9 former managing engineer. At that time he was 10 product safety representative of the industrial and 11 power capacitor department. Off the record. 12 13 (Off the record conference) 14 15 A He could have been both. 16 MR. McCREA: Is that Scoville? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 Q (By Mr. Featherstone) Do you know whether he ever 19 got a response from Prodelec from his inquiry? 20 A I didn't learn it if he did. 21 Q I have no further questions. Thank you. 22 MR. TATE: I have no questions. 23 24 REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. McCREA 25 1 Q (By Mr. McCrea) Are PCBs a polycyclic aromatic? 2 A Is there a chemist in the house? I am led to 3 believe they are. 4 Q Do you know which -- When you say, "The broad class 5 of materials we are dealing with here, polycyclic 6 aromatics contains known or suspected carcinogens," 7 do you know to what specific chemicals the 8 information -- the person who gave you that 9 information was referring? 10 A I understand the question, and I don't know any 11 examples -- I don't personally know of any examples 12 of polycyclic aromatics that are carcinogens. 13 Q When you talk about, "The broad class of materials 14 we are dealing with here," to what are you 15 referring? Are you referring -16 A Polycyclic aromatic. 17 Q Are you referring to that which you have discussed 18 on the previous page, trichlorobiphenyl, 19 trichlorobenzene? 2 0 A No. This statement stands alone. 21 Q Well, you say, "We are dealing with here." What 22 are you dealing with? 23 MR. KIERNAN: Asked and answered. 24 A We are dealing with one example of the class of 25 materials known as polycyclic aromatics, that one 1 example being the PCB family. 2 Q (By Mr. McCrea) Fine. Thank you. 3 MR. KIERNAN: Any further questions? 4 Mr. Nelson, you have the right to read the 5 transcript, and I would that you do that. 6 Madam Court Reporter, if you would send the 7 transcript to me, I will forward it on to Mr. 8 Nelson for his review. 9 10 (Deposition concluded at 6:55 p.m.) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I, LEE ANN BIANCUCCI, R.P.R., duly commissioned and qualified in and for the State of Connecticut, do hereby certify that pursuant to Notice and the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, there came before me on the 25th day of January, 1993, the following-named person to wit: James Sparks Nelson, who was by me duly sworn to testify to the truth and nothing but the truth; that he was thereupon carefully examined upon his oath and his examination reduced to writing under my supervision; that this deposition is a true record of the testimony given by the witness. I further certify that I am neither attorney nor counsel for nor related to nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this deposition is taken and further that I am not a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties hereto, or financially interested in this action. IN WITNESS THEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and affixed my seal this day of , 1993. 108 Lee Ann Biancucci, R.P.R. My Commission Expires: April 30, 1997. UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF CONNECTICUT 109 I, James Sparks Nelson, do hereby certify that the foregoing testimony given by me on January 25, 1993, is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge and belief. Date James Sparks Nelson At ______________ in said County of ________________, t h i s _______ day o f ___ _____ , 1993, personally appeared James Sparks Nelson, and he made oath to the truth of the foregoing answers by him subscribed. Before me, Notary Public. My Commission Expires: CORRECTION SHEET 110 I , ________________________, do hereby certify that the following corrections and additions are true and accurate to the best of my knowledge and belief. CORRECTION PAGE LINE REASON DATE James Sparks Nelson A t ____________________ in said County of _________________, t h i s ____ ^___ __ day of ________________, 1993, personally appeared ____ _____________ ___, and he made oath to the truth of the foregoing corrections by him subscribed. Before m e , ______________________________ , Notary Public. My Commission Expires: Lee Ann Biancucci, R.P.R. Court Reporter 22 Elm Road Cromwell, CT 06416 203-635-2607 February 1, 1993 David C. Kiernan, Esq. Williams & Connolly 725 Twelfth Street, N.W. Washington, DC 20005 Re: Nevada Power Company vs. Monsanto Co. Case No. CV-S-89-555-LDG (LRL) Dear Mr. Kiernan: Enclosed along with your copy of the Depositions of Mr. Fessler and Mr. Nelson are the original signature pages and correction pages. Please arrange to have the witnesses read their depositions, sign the enclosed pages and return them to me for insertion into the original transcript. Please be advised that the rules provide for 30 days from your receipt of the transcript for this to be accomplished. Thank you. Sincerely, Lee Ann Biancucci, R.P.R. cc: Ralph A. Bradley, Esq. David S. McCrea, Esq. Bruce Featherstone, Esq. Robert J. Tate, Esq. Enclosure Ul'O V$ f> r CORRECTION SHEET (Page 1 of 2) 1/ rl%r0/>> , do hereby certify that the following c/orrections and additions are true and accurate to the best of my knowledge and belief. PAGE LINE CORRECTION 12 5 "polymer" should be "power" 17 20 "petition" should be "position" 18 15 "individuals of file" should be "individual 35 22 "Papa George" should be "Papqpnrq^" ..... 36 4 "Papa George" should be "Papaqeorqe" 36 13 "Papa George" should be "Papageorge" 36 16 "direct" should be "contact" 36 36 37 .40 57 21 25 1 13 8 "we" should he "They" "Papa George" should he "Papageorge" "Papa George" should be "Papaqeorqe" "pyranol" should be "mineral oil" insert "that" between "trend" and "could" DATE ,10?/ ^ wiii i h, i h n 'James Spares Nelson . At AttAj&di______ / this in said County of day of __k_L_/_'_si/? , 1993, personally appeared 5f^k[s> /{//r>rt, _, and he made oath to the truth of the foregoing corrections by him subscribed. Before me, *5- _______ ___ f Notary Public. PATRICIA,S. ANDERSON notakv public My- Commission Expire lier ' .*% PCB; AM INDUSTRY PROBLEM? 000055 putllna 1 . O rigin o f Currant Concern - E co lo g ical E ffe c t s .2 S b x i d t y , f i r e and Other H ealth Hazards 3 . General E le c tric Usage 4 D is p o sa l P r a c t ic e s 5 . Q ie stio n s to be Answered 6, A Proposed Program I: I J . S . Nelson Corporate Ihgineering October 30, 19o? PLAINTIFFS EXHIBIT 200383 ,; pC3: AN INDUSTRY PROBLEM? . *v X. Origin of Current Concern - Ecological Effects Late in February, 1969, a West Coast newspaper carried a major feature bout n& menacing new pollutant" found In the San firancisco Bay area* 'The ift i d e was based on marine life research carried out by Dr. Robert Risebrough 0f.the University of California. The article stated that residues of pesticides (DDT end DDE) and polychlorinated biphenyl (PCB) were threatening the welfare of certain birds and posed long-term threat to humans. 1 She following is Nature's synopsis of Dr. Risebrough'e paper:^ Polychlorinated biphenyls are widely dispersed in the global ecosystem* and are powerful Inducers of hepatic enzymes which degrade estradiol. Ibgether with other chlorinated biocides, such as DDT, they could account for a large part of the aberration In calcium metabolism which has been observed in many s p a d e s of birds since the Second World War* These exeexpts are representative of press coverage:3 PCB!s are produced under the trade name Aroclor fay Honsanto Oiend cal Company, St. Zouis. They were first identified In European birds by Swedish scientists. They apparently are released Into the atmosphere and waterways by vaporizing, from factory smokestacks, b y discharge Into rivers and oceans.... A team of University of California and O o m e U University scientists has determined that P C B 's are five times more power ful than DDT in hormone-destroying activity. like DDT, they are ibund throughout the environment and their quantities are increasing rapidly. They have been fbund in the nllk of nursing mothers In Colorado and in marine life off California, as well as in European birds.... nhat effects P C B 's will have on man is not known, although in vapor f o m these chemicals are highly tojdc....the federal govern ment has not set tolerance U n i ts. -- Monsanto Cbnpany spokesmen say only that their scientists end sales executives are studying the problem.... lb3d city Fire and Other Health Hazards Cbrpany literature has long contained cautionary notes on the handling Pyranol (the G. K. registered trademark for chlorinated diphenyls). For t3Clm?le:4 2* ft^oci a Statement by the Honsanto Cbnpany, St. Louis, lb., 3-3-69 * Polychlorinated Biphenyls in the Global Ecosystem11, by Risebrough, Rleche, . Peakall, Herman, and Kirven, Nature. Vol. 220, Dec. 1!, 1968. , Gainesville, Florida, Sun, April 25, 1969 u Instructions GET-65080"T H - 64 1M): Pyranol Insulating Liquid and Transformer Dr* lB s - p n n 3 fi,t fCB* An Industry Pioblaa? * **- * -2- Transformer Pyranol can be handled in the same manner es mineral oil. Although continued exposure to liquid Pyranol may produce local skin irritation, cleanliness among workmen constitutes an adequate safeguard against such effects.... As with most volatile materials, exposure to con castrated Pyranol vapors in unventH a t e d rooms should be avoided. C A D U D N -- Hydrogen chloride gas is formed when Pyranol is decomposed by an electrical arc.... Early this year, an inquiry was received b y Mr. John J. Perry, Specialist-Eavironmental Health Engineering, Schenectady from an Industrial hygienist at Bard Motor Oonpany, as to the toadLdty and fire hazard of transformer askarel. The following is extracted from the Medium Transformer Department's reply to the Ford question naires 5 Material: Pyranol A50P524 Oooponents: tri chlo robiphenyl oewo/f> tri chlorobenzene It. 5? tetrachlorobenzene 5*5% diepoxide scavenger 0.125^ lbxi city: ingestion -- highly toxic inhalation -- moderate respirato zy tract -- moderate Skin Sensitizer: No. Estimated threshold limit value: 0.5 to 1 mg/cubic meter. Is material flammable? No. What products might be formed in the event of fire or abnormal temperature? In an incinerator burner designed for the disposal of chlorinated solvents, the products of combustion will be HCL end C02* In considering the question of flanzaabllity, it should be kept in mind -jat askarels are chosen for insulation applications partly because they are, v definition", non-flamable liquids which, when decomposed b y electric arc, only non-explosive gaseous mixtures. Recently discovered exceptions "Jve been reported, and Medium Transformer Department has at least temporarily r^doaed the use of A5GP524, based on Aroclor 12Z*2, in favor of the "classical" oclor I254 (EtfXS A13R3B). Some, people have sensitivity to Pyranol such that their skin erupts In a upon exposure. When discovered in the factory, they are transferred to fc'ansmitted with letter from P. J. McCann, Medium Transformer Department i, J R. G. Anderson, Fbrd Mstor Company, 2-5-69* letters from G. G. Poulsen, Mgr.-Ihgrg., MDT to Glassanos 2 0 f l ^ f i ri "&y\*x>d, Pozefsiy, and Deck, under dates of 5-27-- 69 and 8-5-69* pCB: An Industry Problem? 3 other lines of vrork and their synptons disappear. The broad class of materials we are dealing with here, polycyclic aromatics, contains known or suspected carcinogens. This aspect has been considered in the Industrial tgrgiene or medical review of operations In at least one plant. 3. General Electric Usage EtaPIS a p e d u c a t i o n s list s e m i different fbmailatlons of Pyranol. The basic material is chlorinated diphenyl purchased from Monsanto tender the desig nation Arcelor 1254* Aroclor 1242, and Arcelor 1260. These are blended with other chlorinated aromatics, inhibitors, and scavengers to produce other askarels with different characteristics, all designated fay the GE registered trademark, Pyranol. Product responsibility is assigned to the Medium Transformer Department, Home, Georgia, presumably because MTD sells Pyranol to customers who fill their transformers o r other equipment in their own shops. The following is a list of departments assumed to be using Pyranol in the dielectric systems o f products manufactured in-house: Industrial and Power Capacitor Department Specialty Transformer Department? Wire and Cable Department? Connercial Distribution Transformer Department lighting Systems Departmoit? Medium Transformer Department Jtower Transformer Department Canadian General Electric Company Service Shops Ibtal usage has not been ascertained. The Transformer Departments have in recent years cut their relative use of Pyranol, limiting it to cases where the non^aan a b i l i t y property is very important, such as indoor applications. (They are using' eliphati a.hydro carbons, especially one known as rlD-Cn.) As a result o f this trend, the Power Transformer Department at Pittsfield uses Pyranol in only about 5% of its units, and Residential Distribution Transformer Departmoit, at Hickory, uses none. I*o search has been made for non-dielectric applications of Pyranol. Such may oonceivably include use as a hydraulic fluid (e.g. in aircraft or materlalshandling systems); heat transfer applications; and as a plasticizer in the production of polymers used as adhesives, elastomers, or surface coatings. The largest user is the Industrial **id Power Capacitor Department, Hudson M - l s , N. which uses 10 ndllion pounds per year -- probably more than the rest of the Company, combined. 200386 PCS: An Industry Problem? 4 Disposal Practices Tile Industrial and rower Capacitor Department purchases approximately 10 million pounds per year, of which 9 million pounds are accounted for in terms o f products shipped Waste is handled in the following manner: Re claimable material returned to rbnsanto 200,000 Ib./yr. Badly contaminated material hauled away by a New Jersey scavenger (recosnsided b y Monsanto) 800,000 Contained in scrapped small industrial units disposed in town dump, Where daily burial Is thought to be the practice Ibtal waste and scrap, approx. 0.000 1^)60,000 li./yr. At various times in the past, other disposal methods have been used, .Including sale to & manufacturer of Insecticide; in the recent past, at least one repre sentative of the ibnsanto Conpany was recommending its use, alone or in combination with mineral oils, as a road spray to allay dust*7 At Pittsfield, there has been some experimentation with & decomposition chamber which fires at 3000 F., but the bulk of contaminated material Is sold; at Dome, waste is buried on the Coupany site* Although nearby neighbors have shallow wells, no conplaints have been registered 5. Questions to be Answered It is apparent from the above discussion that our knowledge of chlorinated diphenyl formulations end possible deleterious effects is not as corplete as is desirable in today's climate o f concern for maintaining and irproving the quality of life in its environmental aspects, with regard to worker protection, and in terms of product safety Nevertheless, it is not responsive to suggest that `"other materials be substituted" until all doubts are resolved It must be* remembered that virtually ^VT applications of Pyranol are the end product of intensive research directed toward finding the best material for the application; that substitution would involve trade-offs, not only with performance factors end economic factors, but with product safety considerations themselv es -- ie, flanmability and explosion possibilities. While it is desirable to attain a better quantitative expression o f the toxic effect of P C B and its various additives, and & better understanding o f the AaranabiUty o f degradation products, the most Isportant question, long range, appears to be, "does industrial use of P CB represent a credible ecological threat?" 7. Letter from T. W. Oneson, Monsanto Sales Representative, to V. R. ttilhall, Canadian General Electric Gt>, Ltd, Peterborough, H - 1 2-68. 8, Letter, Dr. J. S. Anderson (REOO) to Hr. 7. R. Milhall, OGE, 12-20-68 200387 An Industry Problem? 5- One circumstance which makes it difficult to answer the question of ecological effects Is that PCB has not been found alone in any of the reported observations of nature, but always .accompanied by larger quantities of DDT o r DDS. In the work previously cited, Dr. Hisebrough has shown, by direct intra-nuscular Injection, that PCB has "the capacity to produce sublethal-physiological effects In birds" -- but this is not the same thing as saying that it does, in fact, do oo outside of the laboratory. Scientific esoadnation of this question degenerated, at the Wisoonsin hearings on DDT, into a shouting contest between partisans o f conservation (who seem willing to ban any chemical, regardless of its otherwise beneficent results, if it Is suspected of harm); the makers of insecticides (e.g., Shell Gonpany); and the producer of PCB (Monsanto). The same witnesses have been quoted on both sides of the question. The reader say choose between the following statements, each attributed b y the press to Dr. Bisebroughs (a) (PCB is) apparently playing a role in the decline of the peregrine falcon and it may have abetted the disappearance from the Gulf (bast of the bxcxn pelican. (San f^an cisco Examiner, Feb. 25, 1969). (b) Tests v/ith eggs. showed mathematically by correlation with eggshell thickness that DDE and not P C B 1a were to blame. (Milwaukee Sentinel, Kay 13, 1969)7? Ironically, the second statement was made when Dr. Bisebrough was called to the stand b y the attorney defending the insecticide interests. Should it be established that PCB Is to blame fbr ecological damage, it remains to trace the transport mechanism and determine at least plausible sources and sets of conditions for propagation into the environment. Estimating from G capacitor usage, total industry usage might be 20 to 40 million pounds, most of which ends up in closed systems from which dispersion is at a very low rate. This contrasts with much larger usage of DDT -- 160 million pounds in 1963* 103 E i H i a n pounds in 1967 -- most of which is broadcast on the land^ln the atmosphere. Monsanto has a research program to identify the compounds reported to be PCB by the Swedish and California scientists. This involves precise analysis of environmental samples of -*' water, air, soil and wildlife, including metabolic studies. Also under way are studies to determine the biological effects o f deliberate dosage of FCB's on fish, birds, and mammalian animals. Special emphasis is being paid to endocrinological effects, mineral metabolism and reproduction physiology.l A s we beoome more pollution conscious, wo wish to know what volume of unused Askarel is being buried, sewered or incinerated on the North American oontinent, particularly, and what hazards does it present. What degree of responsibility should Monsanto shoulder in this affair? Will it be necessary to diligently collect unusable Ask&rei, including Askarel-saturated fuller's earth, and develop techniques to destroy it? Should we return it to our factories for chemical decomposition? We must answer these questions soon* 7 O fi A n c o JUUooo 'V pCB: An Industry Problem? m 6- Die above quotations indicate Monsanto1s concern vdth the ecological effects and state some of the questions to be answered. Monsanto is the only U. S. supplier, but additional information may be sought from European and Japanese suppliers. Prodelec, in France, is the principal continental source of PCB, and m i n tains a large toxicological laboratory. About three months ago, Kr. K. E. Sooville, Product Safety Representative of .the Industrial and rower Capacitor Department, wrote to Mr. Pierre Jay,-Manager-Dielectric fluids Development for Prodelec, calling attention to the Risebrough research and asking for comoats and further information. Do reply has been received as yet. 6. A Proposed Program Hie Coup any* a stance on the PCS situation must take Into consideration not only the need for technical assessment of hazards, but the need to guard against vell-notivated but possibly needless or precipitate legislative action, e.g., to tack a PCB rider onto an anti-DDT bill. As a first step, it is suggested that an outside consultant, with more freedom to operate than our own people, be engaged to sort through the conflicting evidence, touch base with the people doing the research at Monsanto, and give us his views as to whether the Cbnoany needs to do anything further at this t i m e . This consultant would combine, ideally, the disciplines of analytical chemistry, ecology and toxicology. He would be asked to spend not more than two weeks on this initial survey, end report informally to interested departments and Corporate functional components. Depending upon his findings, a possible second step would be to engage the electrical industry in cooperative investigation of the problem, through an appropriate industry technical body (e.g., the dielectric connittee of The above recommendation is the outcome of discussions between Drs. Anderson end Murply of E E 03. (environmental pollution); Hr. E. K. Deck (Safety and Plant Protection); end Messrs. Marquis and Nelson (Product Safety). It has been reviewed at length with Dr. Pozefaly, Dr. George, Hr. Scoville and others at Hudson Falls, and briefly with Mr. Alimsnsky and Dr. Osthoff at Pittsfield, all of *&om have expressed general agreement. Ur. Deck has suggested that we consider Dr. Horace V. Gerard, a toxicologist at Fairleigh Dickinson University for the assignment as our liaison scientist. Dr. Gerard is a hydrocarbon eocpert who does much work fbr the Mobil Company and has carried out assignments for CE in the past. J. S. Helson October 30 1969 200389