Document 6bwrV74aRw0prdDymJo1jKg4g
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
Page 194
1 NO. B-126,986
2 RUSSELL ALLEN, ET AL
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT *
3 VS.
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
4 AMERICAN PETROFINA, INC.,*
ET AL
* 6OTH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
5
NO. A-144,426 (Consolidated B-126,986)
6
GLADYS FORRESTIER, ET AL * IN THE DISTRICT COURT 7*
VS. 8
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
AC&S, INC., ET AL
* 60TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
9
NO. A-134,614 (Consolidated B-126,986)
10
FRENCH HICKS, ET AL 11
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT *
VS. 12
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
BETHLEHEM STEEL
*
13 CORPORATION, ET AL
* 60TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
14 NO. A-144,426-A (Consolidated B-145,587)
15 GINGER BROUSSARD 16 VS. 17 AC&S, INC., ET AL
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT *
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
* 60TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
18 NO. B-138,645
19 DOROTHY DAVIS, ET AL 20 VS. 21 AC&S INC., ET AL
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT *
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
* 60TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
22 CONTINUATION OF THE VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
23 HENRY M. TAYLOR
24 May 9, 1997 Hilton Richmond Airport
25 5501 Eubank Road Richmond, Virginia
Page 195 file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (1 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:50 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
1 NO. B-149,788
JOANN FOSTER, ET AL 2
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT *
VS. 3
A.M.F. INCORPORATED,
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
*
4 ET AL
* 60TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
5 NO. B-132,431
6 LEO MIRE
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT
7 VS.
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
8 MOBIL OIL CORPORATION * 60TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
9 NO. B-134,025
10 JOHNNY LEE POWERS
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT
11 VS.
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
12 AMERICAN OPTICAL
*
CORPORATION, ET AL
* 60TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
13
NO. B-141,242
14
ROOSEVELT SCOTT 15
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT *
VS. 16
AMERICAN OPTICAL
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
*
17 CORPORATION, ET AL
* 60TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
18 NO. B-148,523
19 IN THE MATTER OF THE ESTATE OF VIRGIL
20 WILLBANKS, DECEASED, ET AL
21 VS.
22 AC&S, INC., ET AL
23 -------------------------------------------
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT * * * *
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
* 60TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
24
25
Page 196 1 NO. E-141,216 (Consolidated A-134,614) file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (2 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:50 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
2 DOROTHY LEE BARNARD ET AL
3 VS.
4 ALLIED-SIGNAL, INC. ,
5 ET AL
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT *
*
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
*
* 58TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
6 NO. A- 140,498
7 JOYCE A. BORNE, ET AL * IN THE DISTRICT COURT
8 VS.
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
9 ALLIED-SIGNAL, INC. , ET AL
* * 58TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
10
NO. A- 142,945
11 LOYICE B. EBANKS
12 VS.
13 AC&S, INC., ET AL
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT *
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
* 58TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
14
NO. A- 155,544
15
HARRY GILBERT, JR., ET AL* IN THE DISTRICT COURT
16 *
VS. * JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
17 *
AMOCO CORPORATION,
*
18 ET AL
* 58TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
19 NO. A- 151,231
20 DONNA JONES, ET AL
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT
21 VS.
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
22 AC&S INC., ET AL
* 58TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
23
24
25
Page 197
1 NO. A-152,338 2 MARGARET PALERMO, ET AL * IN THE DISTRICT COURT
*
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (3 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:50 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
3 VS.
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
4
ARCO CHEMICAL COMPANY,
*
ET AL
* 58TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
5
NO. E-150,405 (Consolidated D-145,280-B-C-D)
6
DONALD ROY SCHMIDT, ET AL* IN THE DISTRICT COURT 7*
VS. 8
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
THE AETNA CASUALTY &
*
9 SURETY, ET AL
* 58TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
10 NO. A-153,063
11 ROBERT WASHINGTON
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT *
12 VS.
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
13 AMERICAN CAST IRON PIPE *
COMPANY, ET AL
* 58TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
14
NO. D-143,616
15
BARBARA MAE CASTRO 16 DIDDLE, ET AL
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT *
*
17 VS.
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
18 TEXACO INC., ET AL
* 136TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
19 NO. E-149,835
20 JUDY BLACKBURN, ET AL * IN THE DISTRICT COURT *
21 VS.
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
22 AC&S, INC., ET AL
* 172ND JUDICIAL DISTRICT
23
24
25
Page 198
1 NO. E- 153,066
2 BOYCE A. GILBERT 3 VS. 4 AMERICAN OPTICAL
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT *
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
*
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (4 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:50 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
CORPORATION, ET AL
* 172ND JUDICIAL DISTRICT
5
NO. E-144,963
6
JUANITA FRALICK, ET AL * IN THE DISTRICT COURT 7*
VS. 8
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
CONOCO, ET AL
* 172ND JUDICIAL DISTRICT
9
NO. E-144,117
10
ALBERT PALMER, ET AL 11
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT *
VS. 12
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
SHELL OIL COMPANY
* 172ND JUDICIAL DISTRICT
13
NO. E-146,212
14
BARBARA BOYDWINNINGKOFF,* IN THE DISTRICT COURT
15 ET AL
* *
16 VS.
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
17 CHEVRON U.S.A., INC.,
*
ET AL
* 172ND JUDICIAL DISTRICT
18
NO. 96-3348-E
19
BERNICE DENKELER, ET AL * IN THE DISTRICT COURT 20 *
VS. 21
* NUECES COUNTY, TEXAS *
AC&S INC., ET AL
* 148TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
22
23
24
25
Page 199
1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS
2 BEAUMONT DIVISION
3 DOUGLAS KING, ET AL
* *
4 VS.
* 1:95-CV-311LH *
5 E.I. DUPONT DENEMOURS & *
CO., ET AL
*
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (5 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:50 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
6
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
7 FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS
DALLAS DIVISION
8
JOHN W. EVANS, ET AL 9
* *
VS. 10
* 3:95-CV-2080-R *
E.I. DUPONT DE NEMOURS & *
11 CO., ETAL
*
12 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS
13 DALLAS DIVISION
14 ERNEST FLORES, ET AL
* *
15 VS.
*3:96-CV-0593 *
16 E.I. DUPONT DE NEMOURS & *
CO., ET AL
*
17 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
18
19 CONTINUATION OF THE VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
20
21 HENRY M. TAYLOR
22 May 9, 1997
23 Hilton Richmond Airport
24 5501 Eubank Road
25 Richmond, Virginia
Page 200
1 Reported by: B. IRENE MEGUESS, CSR, RPR
2 Texas CSR No. 2429 Nell McCallum & Associates, Inc.
3 2615 Calder, Suite 111 Beaumont, Texas 77702/(409) 838-0333
4 5 *****
6
7 Appearances:
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (6 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:50 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
8 For the Plaintiffs:
9 HERSCHEL L. HOBSON of the Law Offices of
10 Herschel L. Hobson 2190 Harrison
11 Beaumont, Texas 77701
12 -and-
13 JOSEPH C. BLANKS of the Law Offices of
14 Joseph C. Blanks, P.C. 2190 Harrison
15 Beaumont, Texas 77701
16 For Ethyl Corporation, et al: B. STEPHEN RICE
17 of the Law firm of Hays, McConn, Rice & Pickering
18 1200 Smith Street, Suite 400 Houston, Texas 77002
19 For Amoco Corporation, Amoco Oil Company, Amoco
20 Chemical Company: JAMES J. MARON
21 of the Law Firm of Maron, Marvel & Wilks
22 1201 North Market, Suite 1707 Wilmington, Delaware 19807
23
24
25
Page 201
1 For American Optical Corporation: MICHAEL L. BLAKENEY
2 of the Law Firm of Rienstra, Dowell & Flatten
3 470 Orleans Building, Suite 1010 Beaumont, Texas 77701
4 For Todd Shipyards Corporation:
5 GEORGE R. MURPHY, III of the Law Firm of
6 Vinson & Elkins, LLP 2300 First City Tower
7 1001 Fannin Street Houston, Texas 77002-6760
8 For 3M:
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (7 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:50 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
9 CHRISTOPHER P. MANNING of the Law Firm of
10 DeHay & Elliston, L.L.P. 1500 Maxus Energy Tower
11 717 North Harwood Dallas, Texas 75201
12 For Fibreboard Corporation:
13 GWENDOLYN S. FROST of the Law Firm of
14 Powers & Frost, LLP 810 Two Houston Center
15 909 Fannin Houston, Texas 77010
16 For Binks Manufacturing Company (B. Gilbert case
17 only); J.T. Thorpe Company (Forrestier case only): CLAYTON HALEY
18 of the Law Firm of Fairchild, Price, Thomas & Haley
19 1801 North Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75963-1668
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 202
1 For Liberty Mutual Insurance Company: ALAN ABES
2 of the Law Firm of Dinsmore & Shohl, L.L.P.
3 1900 Chemed Center 255 East Fifth Street
4 Cincinnati, Ohio 45202
5 For John Crane Inc.: SHANNON O. COLVIN
6 of the Law Firm of Kenny, Vettori & Robinson, PA
7 217 East Redwood Street, Suite 1500 Baltimore, Maryland 21202
8 For DuPont:
9 FORD LOKER of the Law Firm of
10 Church & Houff, PA
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (8 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:50 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
2 North Charles Street 11 B & O Building, Suite 600
Baltimore, Maryland 21201 12
For Allied Signal: 13 CASSANDRA C. COLLINS
of the Law Firm of 14 Hunton & Williams
Riverfront Plaza, East Tower 15 951 East Byrd Street
Richmond, Virginia 23219-4074 16
For Pittsburgh-Corning Corporation: 17 STEPHEN E.B. SMITH
of the Law Firm of 18 Blasingame, Burch, Garrard,
Bryant & Ashley, P.C. 19 440 College Avenue North
Athens, Georgia 30603 20
For Dresser Industries, Worthington Pump: 21 RICHARD T. PLEDGER
of the Law Firm of 22 Sands, Anderson, Marks & Miller
801 East Main Street 23 Richmond, Virginia 23216
24
25
Page 203
1 For the Defendant Foster Wheeler Constructors: A. CHRISTOPHER DERDEN (Telephonically)
2 of the Law Firm of Adams & Reese, L.L.P.
3 1100 Louisiana, Suite 5100 Houston, Texas 77002
4 The Videographer:
5 WARRIENE FLATT Legal Images
6 In Attendance:
7 PATRICIA TAYLOR
8
9 *****
10
11 Continuation of the videotaped deposition
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (9 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:50 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 12 of HENRY M. TAYLOR, a witness, called by Plaintiffs, 13 on May 9, 1997, at the Hilton Richmond Airport, 14 5501 Eubank Road, Richmond, Virginia, before 15 B. Irene Meguess, RPR, Texas CSR No. 2429, pursuant 16 to the stipulations previously set out on 17 January 24, 1997. 18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're on the 19 record at 9:11 a.m. 20 21 22 23 24 25
Page 204
1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE 3 EXAMINATION BY MR. RICE............................................................... 2 05 4 5 EXHIBITS 6 DEPOSITION EXHIBIT TAYLOR NO. 7.......................................... 2 64 7 ARTICLE ENTITLED OCCUPATIONAL EXPOSURE TO 8 ORGANIC LEAD COMPOUNDS, 5 PAGES 9 DEPOSITION EXHIBIT TAYLOR NO. 7 WAS REMARKED AS 10 TAYLOR NO. 8............................................................................................ 270 11 (SEE ABOVE) 12 DEPOSITION EXHIBIT TAYLOR NO. 9.......................................... 2 94 13 MEMORANDUM FROM HENRY M. TAYLOR TO J. G.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (10 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:50 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 14 BURDICK, M.D., DATED 10-18-72, 5 PAGES 15 DEPOSITION EXHIBIT TAYLOR NO. 10........................................ 2 94 16 MEMORANDUM FROM HENRY M. TAYLOR TO S. D. 17 MOTSINGER, DATED 10-18-72, 2 PAGES 18 DEPOSITION EXHIBIT TAYLOR NO. 11........................................344 19 HANDWRITTEN DOCUMENT ENTITLED COMPREHENSIVE 20 INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE SURVEY, 9 PAGES 21 22 23 24 25
Page 205
1 HENRY M. TAYLOR, 2 having been previously duly sworn, testified as 3 follows, to-wit: 4 EXAMINATION BY MR. RICE: 5 Q. Good morning, Mr. Taylor. How are you 6 this morning? 7 A. Fantastic. How are you, Steve? 8 Q. Very good. Thank you. 9 A. Good. 10 Q. We're here to continue your deposition 11 that was, I believe, begun back maybe in January, if 12 I recall. 13 Have you had an opportunity to review any 14 additional documents since the time of the taking of
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (11 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:50 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 15 your deposition, before -- when we started your 16 deposition? 17 A. Nothing I hadn't reviewed -- I've - 18 before the deposition. 19 Q. Well, did you -- is there -- well, to make 20 sure I understand, are you talking about the same 21 documents that you brought with you before -22 A. Yes. 23 Q. -- which you have here? 24 A. Yeah, uh-huh. 25 Q. Okay. Have you had an opportunity to talk
Page 206
1 with Mr. Blanks or Mr. Hobson since the first 2 deposition? 3 A. Yeah. I talked to Herschel at 4 5:00 o'clock this morning, on the telephone. 5 Q. Was that the only time you've talked with 6 either Mr. Blanks or Mr. Hobson since the taking of 7 your first deposition? 8 A. Absolutely. 9 MR. BLANKS: Well, you saw me over 10 there just a minute ago introducing myself. 11 THE WITNESS: Right. 12 MR. BLANKS: We exchanged a few 13 pleasantries. 14 THE WITNESS: So, that's - 15 MR. BLANKS: I assured him that I was 16 no friend of yours.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (12 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:50 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 17 A. That -- that was my oversight. I'm sorry, 18 Steve. 19 BY MR. RICE: 20 Q. As I recall, you worked for Ethyl 21 Corporation between the years of 1972 and 1976; is 22 that correct? 23 A. Steve, I need to make reference to this 24 profile of mine and make sure that I'm as accurate 25 as possible (reviewing document).
Page 207
1 '72 to '76, yes, sir. 2 Q. I believe you left in -- somewhere around 3 May of '76? 4 A. In '76. 5 Q. I beg your pardon? 6 A. In '76. I'm not sure of the month right 7 now. 8 Q. Do you remember when in '72 you began? 9 A. No, I don't. 10 Q. All right. One of the things that you 11 discussed during your first deposition concerning 12 the practice of industrial hygiene, I guess, is the 13 principles of recognize, evaluate, and controls. Do 14 you recall that? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. All right. And do you happen to have a 17 document that you produced -- I believe it is
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (13 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:50 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 18 something entitled, "What's My Dose"?
It 's one of
19 your documents that I have in an -- in an exhibit
20 form.
21 A. Yes. Do you want me to produce that?
22 Q. Yeah. I' d like for you to get it in front
23 of you, if you can.
24 A. Okay. Now, let's see, how can we do this
25 in a nice fashion, Steve.
Page 208
1 By golly, it's -- that's tabbed 14, 2 according to this, Steve. 3 Q. That's right. 4 A. If you -- if you could help me, since 5 you've done a lot of -- of research or bird-dogging 6 on this, if you -7 Q. Well, I -8 A. -- if you'd mention that, that would 9 help -10 Q. All right. 11 A. -- help us move things along. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. Yes, got it. 14 Q. Okay. Now, this is -15 A. Steve, I might -- I might say -- what copy 16 do you have? 17 Q. Well, I have a copy -18 A. There was -- there were things that were 19 published , things that were in-house and, like
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (14 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:50 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 20 anything for excellence, it improves with time. So, 21 there's several versions, a number of versions of 22 this that -- I'm sure when you first write 23 something, that then you think through the night and 24 improve it. And you might think in a week, and then 25 you'll go back and modify something.
Page 209
1 Q. Well, we all learn as time goes on, don't 2 we? 3 A. Yeah. The best -- the best presentation 4 of this, I think, was a publication in -- in the 5 safety journal. 6 Q. Well, certainly this -7 A. You're -- you're at probably an early 8 version, but go ahead. 9 Q. Well, certainly you believed what you said 10 when you wrote it, didn't you? 11 A. Go ahead. 12 Q. Please answer my question. 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Thank you. If you will, look at -- at 15 this document, page 10. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. All right. I was just looking at the 18 conclusion here. You say that: Professional 19 judgment, based on experience and consideration of a 20 multitude of factors, is the all important,
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (15 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:50 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 21 essential element for acquiring useful location, as 22 well as exposure dose information. Is that correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. All right. (Reading) This judgment 25 should be based in major part on professional
Page 210
1 experience, with a strong component of detailed but 2 wide-ranging technical knowledge. 3 Did I read that correctly? 4 A. I believe so. 5 Q. Okay. And that was your position and is 6 your position, is it not? 7 A. Yes. I would -8 Q. Okay. 9 A. I would agree with that. 10 Q. Certainly judgment is an imp- -- very 11 important part of industrial hygiene practice; is 12 that right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay. And part -- I noticed also in here, 15 if you go over to page -- page 4 of this same 16 document. 17 A. Page 4. Got it. 18 Q. You got it? 19 A. Yep. 20 Q. On page 4, in the first paragraph, you're 21 talking about doing a walk-through? 22 A. Uh-huh.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (16 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:50 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 23 Q. That's the title at - 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. -- the top? Okay.
Page 211
1 A. It's a subtitle of the -2 Q. All right. 3 A. -- that paragraph. 4 Q. And I believe what you're basically saying 5 is that doing a walk-through is one of your earlier 6 phases of -- of exercising your judgment; is that 7 not correct? 8 A. I'd have to read it, Steve. I'm reading 9 it now. 10 (Reviewing document) We're talking about 11 the ventilation system there. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. We're talking specifically at -- I'm that 14 far in the -- do you want to read that whole thing, 15 Steve - - you read the other so well -16 Q. Well, let me just ask you a question 17 here. 18 A. -- so that it's -- it's -- everyone else 19 can hear that, and at the same time it helps me 20 very -21 Q. All right. 22 A. -- much. 23 Q. The -- let me ask you a question.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (17 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:50 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 24 A. Sure. 25 Q. You're talking about, in doing an
Page 212
1 evaluation of this walk-through, that you use -2 what it says is: This ventilation -- excuse me -3 this visual ventilation assessment, when coupled 4 together with -5 A. Wait now. Are -- how about -- start -6 sometimes I can get caught off base, Steve, in -- in 7 a challenging situation when you start in the middle 8 of something. And I'd appreciate very much if we 9 would have the whole thought behind us as -- so, if 10 you'd read the -- just start in under there, "Walk 11 Through"; or I'll read it, whatever would help you. 12 Q. Well, let me just ask you the questions, 13 and -14 A. Sure. 15 Q. -- you respond. Okay? 16 You're indicating here that odor 17 evaluation is one of the ev- -- parts of judgment; 18 is that correct? 19 A. I -- I would really prefer that you read 20 the whole thing, that we think of this in the 21 concept -- in previously talking, in all fairness -22 the fish are in the ocean; but we have to identify 23 what part of the ocean we're in, you see. So, your 24 role is to challenge me; and, boys, do your job. 25 That's great. I enjoy that.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (18 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:50 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
Page 213
1 Q. Thanks. I'm going to ask you some 2 questions. Okay? 3 A. But at the -- at the same time, be fair to 4 me that -- I have not read this document -- this 5 particular document for a long, long time. Okay. 6 Q. Mr. Taylor -7 A. Yes. 8 Q. -- does the exercise of judgment in 9 industrial hygiene practice include using your 10 senses? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. All right. And those senses would be 13 visual; correct? 14 A. Yes. Yeah. 15 Q. Those are -- that's one of your senses 16 it not? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Smell? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Touch? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. Taste. 24 Q. Very good. 25 A. Deep muscle sense.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (19 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:50 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
Page 214
1 Q. And -2 A. Sound. 3 Q. -- if you, in the exercise of judgment -4 well, strike that. 5 Would you agree with me that professional 6 industrial hygiene activities require, first, a 7 recognition of potential environmental hazards; 8 then, where indicated, quantitative evaluation of 9 the hazards; and finally, if indicated, the 10 formulation of recommendations for control of the 11 hazards? 12 A. Yes. That's the name of my company, 13 recognition, evaluation and quality -- control. 14 That's where REC, as -- as Mr. Hobson called our 15 attention to the last time, that's where it stemmed 16 from. 17 Q. Okay, sir. So, if in the basis or in the 18 exercise of your judgment as a professional 19 industrial hygienist, you do not recognize a 20 potential hazard, then you do not proceed 21 necessarily to the next step of quantitative 22 evaluation? 23 A. The recognition can be acquired in a 24 number of ways. 25 Q. Sure.
Page 215 file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (20 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:50 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
1 A. The recognition can be acquired that Steve 2 Rice calls up and says: Hey, the tower over at Rice 3 University is leaning. And so, I may not perceive 4 that it's leaning because of the angle that I look 5 at. But then if Steve Rice is saying that, and I 6 trust Steve Rice, then I'll -- I'll follow up on 7 that and -- and conduct an evaluation, as -- as 8 appropriate. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. So, oftentimes the recognition depends on 11 your posture, where you're looking at in the mirror 12 at -- at these particular risks. 13 Q. Sure. 14 MR. HALEY: Objection, 15 nonresponsive. 16 BY MR. RICE: 17 Q. So, my -- my statement was correct, then? 18 A. Well, there are other things other than 19 the five senses to -- the mind and the heart, 20 probably the soul, is part of the motivation, if you 21 will, for total recognition, if that's -22 Q. Sure. 23 A. -- what you're getting at. 24 Q. Well, the point is, of course, that 25 recognition is where you have to start ; correct?
Page 216
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (21 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:50 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. All right. Now, I want to talk with you 3 just a minute about dose and dose-response . Could 4 you give me your definition of "dose"? 5 A. Yes. And to help you on that -- I had a 6 thought. I let you down during the deposition in 7 that I forget that this is a -- a lay group. And 8 so, what I've done is to put in words "cause" and 9 "effect." Okay. Now -- with a subtitle "dose."
10 So, to the layperson, a concept of cause 11 and effect they're more comfortable with, you see, 12 is -- is the close to dose. It's not the exact 13 thing, because actually dose is concentration of 14 material times time. 15 Q. Okay. That's --just --can - 16 A. So, it's - 17 Q. -- we stop right there - 18 A. -- cause - 19 Q. -- please? 20 A. -- and effect. 21 Q. Okay. Well, dosedoesn'tnecessarily, in 22 industrial hygiene practice, have anything to do 23 with cause, does it? 24 A. No. It has - 25 MR. HOBSON: Objection, assumes facts
Page 217
1 not in evidence. 2 A. It has everything to do. I will -- I'll
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (22 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:50 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 3 maintain the professional posture and you maintain 4 the legal posture and we'll do fine. 5 BY MR. RICE: 6 Q. That's great. Now, I believe you said 7 that dose is the determination of the concentration; 8 is that correct? 9 MR. HOBSON: Objection, assumes --
10 BY MR. RICE: 11 Q. -- times time? 12 MR. HOBSON: -- facts not in 13 evidence. 14 A. No. Dose is the actual material or 15 vibratory energy, is the impact that the people that 16 one is trying to protect receives. It's not the 17 measurement. Dose -- that -- the measurement is -18 that's part of the evaluation, Steve, see. 19 BY MR. RICE: 20 Q. Okay. Isn't dose quantitative, rather 21 than qualitative? 22 A. Dose is -- the way it is used here in 23 industrial hygiene, the way I use, the way I was 24 taught in industrial hygiene at the University of 25 North Carolina, the way they taught at Harvard, the
Page 218
1 way they taught at Michigan, that -- what you're 2 getting to is evaluation. Dose is -- is the -- if 3 you recall the slides that we first showed, the big
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (23 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 4 cloud of -- of what turned out to be water vapor or 5 steam and barium chloride. That, then, would 6 visually imply a abnormal dose or a high dose. 7 Then at that point, one comes and 8 measures. Okay. It's not a -- it's not a number 9 that's written down. That isn't what's intended
10 with -- with the force of that -- that words, to my 11 best understanding of -- of leaders in industrial 12 hygiene, across the country really. 13 MR. RICE: Let me object to the 14 responsiveness of your answer. 15 A. Sure. 16 BY MR. RICE: 17 Q. I -- I may have misunderstood you, but I 18 believe I heard you say that dose was quantity times 19 the time -20 A. Yes. 21 Q. -- limit or time period? 22 A. Yeah. 23 Q. Is that -- did I hear you correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Okay. So, just by looking at a picture,
Page 219
1 you cannot tell the quantity of the dose, can you? 2 A. Sometimes. It depends on what the picture 3 of - 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. -- is -- is of. At times when one can.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (24 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 6 Q. All right. Let's talk about -7 A. One can -8 Q. Go ahead. 9 A. Well, one can -- we can have a dose, a
10 concentration of charcoal in this room that might be 11 threatening; but it would be so minute that we 12 wouldn't see that and it certainly wouldn't show up 13 on a picture. Okay. 14 Q. So, we wouldn't know by looking, would we? 15 A. That's -- that's correct. 16 Q. Okay. Let me ask you about 17 dose-response. Now, what is dose-response? 18 A. All right. Let's go back to our root 19 words, "cause" and "effect." Okay. While the -20 the dose implies an impact of material, perhaps of 21 unknown quantity, when you're concerning 22 recognition, effect is -- is some change in the 23 concentration of lead, say, in the blood, some 24 change in the enzyme system, in the immune system of 25 somebody hit with a -- a chloridated hydrocarbon,
Page 220
1 some change in loss of hearing perception in a 2 person hit with the impact of -- of a hurtful 3 noise. All right. 4 Q. Are you finished? Were you finished? 5 A. If you're -- if you're satisfied, yeah, 6 I'm finished.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (25 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 7 My purpose here, Steve, is to scratch your 8 itch and be of help to you. 9 Q. Good. The -- you recognized and have
10 recognized in some of your writings, I believe, that 11 there is a dose which may occur without detectable 12 adverse health effects; is that correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. It depends on what you're talking about, 16 Steve. If... 17 Q. All right. 18 A. If you get into -- gosh, that looks like a 19 good piece of equipment of something. 20 Q. Well, let's move on -21 A. Please. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. One in industrial hygiene is concerned 24 with the recognition, evaluation, and control of 25 stresses -- chemical, physical, ergonomic, or
Page 221
1 biologic. There are certain agents that their 2 nature -- and it's carcinogens, is such; okay -- but 3 the country has taken a stand that no exposure to a 4 carcinogen is a permissible exposure. Okay? 5 You attempt -- even when the carcinogen is 6 very vital -- for instance, there's carcinogens in 7 cigarette smoke. And we see the hullabaloo that's 8 going on in the country now to -- let's get those
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (26 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 9 out. People, when they started smoking, didn't
10 really realize that there were flav- -- what they 11 called flavor additives in cigarettes that cause 12 cancer in animals and perhaps humans. 13 So that there are some things for which 14 any meas- -- measurable, any response at all, any 15 indication at all of it, is abhorrent to 16 civilization today. Okay. Otherwise, Phillip 17 Morris wouldn't be on the run. 18 MR. RICE: Let me object to the 19 responsiveness of your answer. 20 A. Sure. 21 BY MR. RICE: 22 Q. You have -- you have not taken the 23 position -- I heard you say that there are some 24 people taking that position, but you have not 25 necessarily taken a position in your writings
Page 222
1 that -- that there is -- that any dose of a 2 carcinogen is going to cause cancer; you're not 3 saying that, are you? 4 A. I was taught that. In the last 5 deposition -- there were a few people who were 6 really great practitioners in people protection, 7 protecting the health and safety of individuals. 8 One of them was Dr. Roy Bock who preceded Ted 9 Robinson at the Baton Rouge facility as the medical
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (27 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 10 director of that Baton Rouge facility for Ethyl 11 Corporation. And he and I -- he certainly came very 12 much down that any exposure to a carcinogen or a 13 potential carcinogen should not be permitted. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. Now, this is the medical director at the 16 facility where we did this -- the breathing air 17 work, for instance. Okay. 18 So, I don't know the attitude of the rest 19 of the people at the Baton Rouge facility; but at 20 least for Roy Bock, he felt that. 21 My -- I'm not a physician. Okay. I am 22 knowledgeable about things medical, but I'm not a 23 physician and I really can't answer your question 24 fairly. But Roy Bock was a -- could very well have 25 been a world leader in occupational medicine. He
Page 223
1 certainly felt that. 2 MR. RICE: Let me object to the 3 responsiveness of your answer. 4 A. Sure. Great. 5 BY MR. RICE: 6 Q. The -- for instance, I notice when -- you 7 would not, for instance, take a position that if 8 you -- if you felt that there was a -- a danger as a 9 result of exposure to a particular agent, whether it 10 be asbestos or something else, you would advise the 11 worker to take appropriate action; is that correct?
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (28 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 12 A. Absolutely. 13 Q. All right. Now, if -- and there are some 14 of your records here that we'll be going through 15 that say that basically under the dose that you felt 16 was going on, you did not feel that respiratory 17 protection was required; is that correct? 18 A. Yes, at -19 MR. HOBSON: Objection, vague. 20 A. -- at that time. 21 BY MR. RICE: 22 Q. All right. And that was true, was it -23 A. Okay. Let me -24 Q. -- not -25 A. Then let me say that in any endeavor --
Page 224
1 whether you're in industrial hygiene, whether you're 2 in a legal situation here, you work for Ethyl 3 Corporation -- and you do the very best you can. 4 Okay? 5 Q. Sure. 6 A. I'm sure Ethyl is probably very, very 7 proud that you're in their employ. 8 In industrial hygiene it's the same way, 9 that you do get into a situation where one does the 10 best they can, where you'll see things -- for 11 instance, we looked at some slides, some insulation 12 slides, with asbestos. And what we saw was a
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (29 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 13 particular shot in the evolution of gaining 14 control. 15 The Government, when they create standards 16 and they say the bottom line is a certain exposure 17 is acceptable, they've always provided some sort of 18 grace period for people to -- to react and to 19 tighten up their act, get their act together to 20 achieve that. Sometimes it's perceived fair or 21 unfair. 22 So, what you saw in those slides was a 23 step in the evolution, if you will, of the control 24 of asbestos fibers. In no way would I condone or 25 did I condone then that particular exposure.
Page 225
1 I think that Mr. Hobson brought out in 2 these -- in the questioning that what I was taught 3 and what I believed, is you get such bad actors as 4 asbestos or anything that is a suspected carcinogen 5 material, you get that down as low as you can. 6 Okay. 7 MR. RICE: Let me object to the 8 resp- -9 A. No matter what -- for instance, the -- the 10 lead law, the -- the exposure that's permitted to 11 lead is -- does not consider that the biological -12 the way lead moves through the body accumulates so 13 that one can actually get too much of a body dose 14 and never receive a dose that would be shown by OSHA
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (30 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 15 to be excessive. 16 BY MR. RICE: 17 Q. The - 18 MR. RICE: Let me object to the 19 responsiveness of your answer. 20 A. Great. 21 BY MR. RICE: 22 Q. The -- one thing you said there was that 23 as -- again, we exercise our judgment based on what 24 we know at the time. And we havelearned more about 25 a lot of things in the last 25 years; is that
Page 226
1 correct? 2 A. Yes, except -- I want to take the 3 exception of something that has a handle or the 4 title of a carcinogen. Okay. That, we don't fool 5 with. That's really the poisonous snake. That's 6 really the -- the -- the no-no - 7 MR. RICE: Let me object to the 8 responsiveness. 9 A. -- where -- where one draws the line and 10 says: I -- I can't go past that line. 11 BY MR. RICE: 12 Q. Would you pull out your Tab No. 6. 13 A. Certainly. Give me a moment to find it 14 (Reviewing documents) 6 -- yes -- wait 15 wait now. Let me get this one back.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (31 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 16 What tab was that last one you had 17 me pull - 18 Q. 14. 19 A. -- Steve? That was 14. Okay. 14 goes 20 there, goes there. God love us. Got it. 21 Q. All right. What is -- what is this 22 paper? 23 A. It -- it says that it was the -- the title 24 of it is -- a presentation that I made -- "The Safe 25 Use of Vinyl Chloride, Slide Presentation and
Page 227
1 Narrative " 2 Q. All right. This is something you wrote? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. All right. Vinyl chloride -5 A. And it's -6 Q. Vinyl -7 A. It had a slide -- my dog and pony show has 8 been the same for lots of years. 9 Q. Is vinyl chloride -10 A. I try to -11 Q. -- a potential carcinogen? 12 A. -- have visuals with the words. 13 I beg your pardon? 14 Q. Is vinyl chloride a potential carcinogen? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. All right. 17 A. Yeah.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (32 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 18 Q. Turn to page 3 of this. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. At the top what does the first sentence 21 say? Would you read that into the record? 22 A. "When area levels are below 1 part per 23 million, no protection is required." 24 Q. Now, you said that; and you believed it at 25 the time, did you not?
Page 228
1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Okay. All right. I want to talk a little 3 bit about -4 A. I -- I want to qualify just a little bit, 5 Steve. Now -- because you initiated the -- the word 6 "dose." Okay. When one has a -- an exposure, say 7 of 1 part per million -- okay -- this is talking 8 about area levels. It's not talking about human 9 exposure dose. Okay. There's a difference, Steve. 10 Okay. 11 One does -- to protect the worker, one 12 does monitoring for -- of -- of the person's 13 exposure, you know, with a sampler. 14 MR. RICE: Let's stop a moment. 15 THE WITNESS: Sure. 16 (TELEPHONE INTERRUPTION) 17 (MR. DERDEN HAS JOINED VIA TELEPHONE) 18 MR. BLANKS: It's almost 9:00 o'clock
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (33 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 19 somewhere. 20 MR. HOBSON: Let's go off the record 21 and get this guy squared away. 22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're off the 23 record. 24 (A BRIEF RECESS WAS HAD) 25 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the
Page 229
1 record at 9:43. 2 BY MR. RICE: 3 Q. Mr. Taylor -4 A. I'm -- I'm still responding. I was 5 interrupted, Steve. Let me complete. 6 THE WITNESS: Mr. Derden, my name is 7 Henry Taylor; and I have asked that the people 8 here sign a sign-in sheet so I know -- you all 9 know my name. I don't know you. So, you've 10 been signed in by the court stenographer here. 11 Let's see, Steve, have you signed 12 this? 13 MR. RICE: Well, I -14 MR. LOKER: I object to this 15 distraction. 16 THE WITNESS: Okay. 17 MR. LOKER: Could we please have the 18 deposition proceed with questions and answers? 19 THE WITNESS: All right. Have you 20 signed this, Steve?
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (34 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 21 MR. RICE: I've -- I signed it when I 22 started the deposition. 23 MS. TAYLOR: I think at the top. 24 THE WITNESS: Oh, did you? 25 MR. BLANKS: Remember, Mr. Rice,
Page 230
1 you're under oath. 2 MR. DERDEN: Hello? 3 THE WITNESS: I can sign it for you. 4 I -- I don't have any problem. 5 A. Now, let's go back to the vinyl chloride 6 question and our recognition that if -- if one talks 7 about the entire document, then one -- one becomes 8 aware that we are into a -9 MR. DERDEN: Irene -- is the court 10 reporter there? 11 THE REPORTER: Just a moment. Yes. 12 Are you unable to hear? 13 MR. DERDEN: Yes. I -- I can't -- I 14 can hear voices, but I can't hear anything at 15 all. I apologize. 16 THE REPORTER: Just a moment. 17 MR. DERDEN: Is that as high as it 18 will go? 19 THE REPORTER: It's up as high as it 20 will go. 21 Can we go off the record? I'm sorry,
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (35 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 22 I can't write and do this. 23 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at 24 9:45. 25 (OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION)
Page 231
1 (MR. DERDEN IS NOT IN ATTENDANCE VIA 2 TELEPHONE) 3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're on the 4 record at 9:47. 5 A. Okay. If -- if -- Steve, let me respond 6 to your very interesting question. On these 7 documents we'll do well -- instead of diving into a 8 paragraph here or there, we'll do well to read the 9 document up to that point. If one goes to the 10 beginning of the document, then say, hey, wait a 11 second, this fellow is making a presentation to a 12 group of people who will be working at -- working 13 with vinyl chloride and explaining the regulations 14 to them, okay, so that this business of -- of "When 15 area levels are below 1 part per million, no 16 protection is required," is part of the rules and 17 regulations -- was part of the rules and regulations 18 of the Government. 19 That doesn't imply that I agreed with 20 that. My function at that point is that I was 21 supposed to educate people on the new law, not on 22 what is Henry Taylor's beliefs about carcinogens. 23 That's not the purpose of this document. Okay.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (36 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 24 BY MR. RICE: 25 Q. Well, let's go to the previous page.
Page 232
1 A. Sure. Sure. 2 MR. RICE: Excuse me. First of all, 3 let me object to the responsiveness of the last 4 answer -- or the nonresponsive portion. 5 BY MR. RICE: 6 Q. Do you have the previous page? 7 A. Page 2. 8 Q. Yes. 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. First paragraph, last sentence, would you 11 read that into the record, please. 12 A. "Furthermore unauthorized personnel will 13 not be admitted to regulated areas. Thus anyone who 14 might be exposed to levels of more than 1 part per 15 million vinyl chloride should be aware of the cancer 16 warning." Okay. 17 At that point in time, the -18 Q. Excuse me. 19 A. -- people who -- who -20 Q. Let me ask you a question. 21 A. -- who regulate the vinyl -22 Q. Mr. Taylor, let me ask you a question. 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Did you write that? Did you write that,
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (37 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 25 "Thus, anyone" --
Page 233
1 A. Essentially -2 Q. -- "who might be exposed" -3 A. Essentially -4 Q. -- "to levels of more than 1 part per 5 million vinyl chloride should be aware of the cancer 6 warning"? Did you write that? 7 A. Essentially the Government wrote that, 8 Steve. 9 Q. Oh, it did? 10 A. Yeah. 11 Q. I'm sorry. This says -- this is entitled 12 "The Safe Use of Vinyl Chloride," by Henry Taylor. 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay. Did you write this document? 15 A. And transcribed from the Government what 16 their rules and regulations are -17 Q. Well, what -- what did you transcribe -18 A. -- or were. 19 Q. -- from the Government here? 20 A. That you didn't have to put up a hazard 21 warning sign when you had below 1 part per million. 22 Now, in an area -- okay. This is not 23 saying human beings are exposed to that. You can 24 have a lot of areas, Steve, in a -- in a -- a 25 facility where human beings, birds, dogs, and cats
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (38 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
Page 234
1 don't go. Okay. And essentially what we were told 2 at that point in time, the Government did the best 3 they could to try to protect the citizenry, workers, 4 is that you -- you mark areas off where there is 5 2 or more parts per million of vinyl chloride, this 6 carcinogen. Okay. 7 The reason for that, Steve, was that 8 the -- the measuring guide devices -- remember our 9 conversation about recognition, evaluation, and 10 control -- the evaluation for vinyl chloride gets 11 very tricky when you would get below -- it's tricky 12 enough even at 2 parts per million, but it's very 13 tricky and unreliable below 1 part per million with 14 the instrumentation at that point in time. 15 So, the Government, in understanding that, 16 said that, okay, if you have areas -- not people 17 exposures but if you have areas that are less than 18 this 1 part per million, then you don't have to do 19 anything about that. 20 So, this encouraged people like Ethyl, 21 who -- who had a Cadillac facility for making vinyl 22 chloride, it encouraged them to do -- you recall our 23 conversation about Dr. Kehoe. Dr. Kehoe said, get 24 the exposure dose of this lead, this alkyl lead, 25 down as low as is humanly possible.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (39 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
Page 235
1 That's what the Government tried to do, as 2 best they could, the regulatories tried to do. 3 Okay. And my function in making this presentation 4 was to share what they were trying to do with the 5 employees at this facility. 6 Q. Well, in fact, this is what -7 MR. RICE: Excuse me. Let me object 8 to the nonresponsive portions. 9 BY MR. RICE: 10 Q. The -- you were giving this presentation 11 to the workers at the Ethyl plant -12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. -- is that correct? 14 And you wouldn't have said this unless you 15 believed it, would you, to be true? 16 A. I might say that the cow jumps over the 17 moon. 18 Q. Good. 19 A. Okay? 20 Q. Okay. Well, we'll move on then. 21 A. I don't believe it. 22 Q. The -- you, in fact, felt that some 23 Government standards were unnecessarily restrictive, 24 did you not? 25 A. Yeah, I -- Steve, forgive me. What I was
Page 236 file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (40 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 1 trying to do -2 Q. Could you answer that question? 3 A. See, I -- I'm explaining my hesitancy and 4 you've taken things and you're getting them out of 5 context. I'm trying to help so you don't deceive 6 yourself. Okay? 7 Q. Did you feel that some Government 8 standards were -9 MR. HOBSON: Excuse me, Mr. --
10 BY MR. RICE: 11 Q. -- unnecessarily restrictive? 12 MR. HOBSON: Excuse me, Mr. Rice. I 13 think he's still answering your previous 14 question as to -15 MR. RICE: He's not answering any 16 question. 17 MR. HOBSON: Well, then -- then 18 you'll have your right to make your 19 objection -20 MR. RICE: Well, thank you. 21 MR. HOBSON: -- of being 22 nonresponsive after he answers -23 MR. RICE: No, you can instruct him 24 and ask him any questions you want to. 25 BY MR. RICE:
Page 237
1 Q. Did you feel --
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (41 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 2 MR. HOBSON:
I'm not instructing
3 anything.
4 BY MR. RICE:
5 Q. -- that Government -- some Government
6 standards were unnecessarily restrictive,
7 Mr. Taylor?
8 MR. HOBSON: Mr. Taylor, if you need
9 to finish your answers to any questions, feel
10 free, sir; and Mr. Rice can make his objections
11 and they'll be ruled on in -- in accordance
12 with our rules.
13 A. I -- I would really prefer, in the
14 interest of science and truth, Steve -- that's what
15 you're after, is truth. Okay. I would hope. I
16 trust that. I believe that. And that -- in reading
17 something that I haven't looked at for 20 years and
18 taking a sentence out here or there would confuse
19 our -- our circumstance, just as you have thus far,
20 in confusing personal exposures and area exposures
21 by intimation.
22 And so that we would do better to read the
23 whole document; and then once we've read the whole
24 document -- we can read it out loud; I'll read it if
25 you want me to -- okay -- and then ask your
Page 238
1 questions and -- and nitpick on it. And we'll see 2 what context that the thing is presented. Because I 3 don't know -- when you come in and pick a sentence file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (42 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 4 here, I don't know if later on it doesn't say this 5 is in compliance with the requirements of the 6 Government, see. So, here I'm trying to read here. 7 And I'm -- I'm not hearing your question to see if 8 you're caught again, see. And I'm trying to uncatch 9 it --
10 Q. Well -11 A. -- the best I can. 12 Q. Uh-huh. 13 MR. RICE: Let me object to the 14 nonresponsive portions. 15 BY MR. RICE: 16 Q. Is there anything in this presentation 17 that talks about that these are Government 18 requirements or that this is Government mandated or 19 anything of that nature? Just take your time and 20 look through the whole thing, and you can tell us -21 A. "Narrative. This slide program" -22 Q. Let me finish my question. 23 A. Uh-huh. 24 Q. -- if there's anything in there that talks 25 about that these are Government requirements or that
Page 239
1 the Government is saying this or anything else. 2 A. I -- I'm going to read it. 3 Q. Sure. Go ahead. 4 A. Okay. "Slide presentation." Okay. It's
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (43 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 5 a visual. 6 Q. You don't have to read it out loud. You 7 can -8 A. I'd -9 Q. -- read it to yourself.
10 A. I'd prefer to. 11 Q. Okay. Great. 12 A. "This slide program is to inform people 13 who enter work areas which may contain airborne" -14 at that point a slide went up -- "Safe use of vinyl 15 chloride" -- "vinyl chloride about the boundary 16 signs" -- and so, then, "Vinyl chloride signs" -17 okay -- "Personal protection monitoring" -- okay -18 "personal protection and monitoring practices 19 within these areas." Okay. 20 So, what we're talking about here are 21 warning signs. They were -- we're really not 22 talking -23 Q. Are you going to read this or not? 24 A. -- a big thesis -- I beg your pardon. 25 We're -- we're not talking about a big thesis of
Page 240
1 people exposure to vinyl chloride. We're talking 2 about warning signs and areas. Okay. That's the 3 first paragraph. 4 "The warning signs" -- again, an 5 asterisk; and it says, "Warning signs, posted area 6 and hard hat."
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (44 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 7 "The warning signs posted around these 8 areas don't predict high vinyl chloride exposure 9 levels any more than wearing a hard hat means that
10 the sky is falling. However, the regulated air 11 boundaries" -- regulated is -- that's Government 12 stuff. Okay. 13 A -- a manufacturer, Henry Taylor, has 14 never been able to regulate anything. Don't you 15 see? People off in Washington, they're regulators. 16 Okay. And it says here, "However, the reg- -17 regulated air boundaries have been established to 18 indicate areas which may contain levels greater than 19 1 ppm." Okay. 1 part per million of vinyl 20 chloride." 21 So, right there, yes, to your question. 22 I've -- I've answered your question there, do 23 I -- is there anything there talks about Government 24 things. That does right there, Steve. Okay. 25 Q. So, that says --
Page 241
1 A. That does say, yes. This is in compliance 2 with the regulations that were put on this Cadillac 3 facility, if you will, very good facility at that 4 time. 5 Q. In talking about Ethyl, you understand 6 that Ethyl had a -- an occupational health program 7 through Dr. Kehoe beginning in the 1920s, do you
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (45 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 8 not? 9 A. I didn't -- no, I didn't -- if you recall
10 the first -- I didn't recall at the first 11 deposition. I don't have knowledge of Dr. Kehoe in 12 the '20s. I wasn't born in 19- -- until 1928. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. And he was older than I was. 15 Q. Well, did you understand that -- when you 16 came, that Dr. Kehoe had long -- had been a 17 long-time medical -- the long-time medical director 18 of Ethyl -- long -- well, not when you were there, 19 obviously, but '30s, '40s, '50s, he was the medical 20 director? 21 A. He was still on the advisory -- I met 22 Kehoe when I worked for Stanford Research Institute, 23 after I left Ethyl Corporation. Dr. Kehoe received 24 a Cadillac from, I believe, the Gotwalds as a gift 25 after -- for his services, I'm sure. So, he was
Page 242
1 still in this consultant role with Ethyl -- all the 2 time I was there, I would imagine, because it was in 3 the newspapers that he had received this -- this 4 gift, if you will -5 Q. Okay. 6 A. -- from the board of directors of Ethyl 7 Corporation -8 Q. He was certainly one -9 A. -- after I left.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (46 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 10 Q. I'm sorry. 11 A. Uh-huh. 12 Q. He was certainly one of the most highly 13 regarded occupational researchers of his time, was 14 he not? 15 A. For lead. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. See, there is -- there is people you -- I 18 have high regard for you as a lawyer. I question 19 you on all your -- you're -- you're missing this 20 word "regulated." So, I question you as an 21 industrial hygienist, you see. 22 Kehoe, I would certainty bow to him for 23 his expertise in lead, okay, and at the interface 24 between lead sources and human beings. But expert 25 in all things of occupational medicine, no.
Page 243
1 Ted Robinson was -- was much more expert, 2 I think, in epidemiology, the trends in disease, and 3 that kind of thing and -- as probably George Roush 4 was. 5 Q. Okay. And those were also Ethyl people; 6 is that right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. The -- the people you just mentioned? 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. I believe, if I remember what you said in
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (47 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 11 your first deposition, Ethyl had tremendous people 12 as medical directors, is what you said. 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. Yeah. The first -- at first, while I -16 while I was there. 17 Q. All right. The -18 A. Before -- and I might go on record that 19 one of the -- it has come to my attention that they 20 had one man who was called a medical director and 21 had that by title within the organization, and was 22 really a Ph.D. in toxicology. For a while 23 Dr. William Rinehart had a title of medical director 24 for Ethyl Corporation. 25 Q. Well, as I recall --
Page 244
1 A. And he was not a physician. 2 Q. If I recall correctly -- and I'm -- I'm 3 not sure what the facts are there, but that -- there 4 was a time period when they were searching for 5 another medical director when Dr. Roush left and -6 and when Dr. Zavon arrived; is that accurate? 7 A. They actually put down Bill's name as 8 medical director for Ethyl Corporation. 9 Q. As I say, that was a time -10 A. I believe he signed as the medical 11 director. He was given by the board of directors 12 a -- or by some -- someone the -- the title of
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (48 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 13 medical director, that he could sign things. 14 There were things -- rules and regulations 15 were happening in -- in the country that seriously 16 affected Ethyl and required their medical review. 17 Q. Was that during -18 A. And I believe that then they gave Bill 19 that title, medical director. And there was a -- a 20 rebellion, if you will, by, really -- by real 21 M.D.s. And that was then done away with, with -- he 22 lost his job, essentially, as medical director; but 23 for a period he was medical director for Ethyl 24 Corporation. He'd write that on his resume. 25 MR. RICE: Objection to
Page 245
1 responsiveness. 2 A. In fact, he was a toxicologist. 3 Beg your pardon? 4 BY MR. RICE: 5 Q. Was this -- was Dr. -- when you're talking 6 about whatever the title was, was a -- an interim 7 time period between when Dr. Roush left and they 8 were trying to fill the position which was filled by 9 Dr. Zavon? That's my -10 A. Yeah. 11 Q. -- question. Can you answer that 12 question? 13 A. Yes.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (49 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 14 Q. Okay. Thank you. 15 A. You're welcome. 16 Q. Now, you also said, though -- I believe 17 you made a mistake about saying that Ter Haar was 18 the medical director of Ethyl Corporation after 19 Zavon left . Now, that is not correct, is it? 20 A. He -- he -- he worked in that functional 21 role. He never got the title that -- that -22 Q. Okay. I just -23 A. -- Dr. -24 Q. -- wanted to make sure. 25 A. -- Rinehart -- he never got the -- they
Page 246
1 had made a blunder, I believe, or felt they had made 2 a blunder , by giving Bill the designation of medical 3 director. 4 Q. Bill who? 5 A. And -- Bill Rinehart, William Rinehart. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. And -8 Q. Well, Dr. Burdick -9 A. -- they -10 Q. Dr. Burdick is the one that became the 11 medical director after Zavon left -12 A. They -13 Q. -- do you recall that? 14 A. -- weren't going to -15 Q. Can you answer my question?
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (50 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 16 MR. HOBSON: Excuse me. Excuse me 17 just a second. 18 MR. RICE: Sure. 19 MR. HOBSON: Let me interrupt, if you 20 would, please, and -- and I interrupt for this 21 purpose: Our court reporter has to take down 22 what is said. And I think everyone has an 23 appreciation for the difficulty the court 24 reporters have in taking down something when 25 two people are speaking on top of each other,
Page 247
1 let alone putting it in -- in written form. 2 So, if -- if I could ask everyone to please not 3 speak while someone else is speaking, it will 4 help our court reporter a lot. 5 BY MR. RICE: 6 Q. Was Dr. Burdick the medical director for 7 Ethyl Corporation after Dr. Zavon left? Can you 8 answer that question? 9 A. I did not know Dr. Burdick. 10 Q. You didn't know him? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. Never -- I don't believe I ever met him. 14 When I left Ethyl Corporation, Ter Haar was 15 functioning as medical director. And that was a -16 a contributory cause to -- to me leaving Ethyl
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (51 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 17 Corporation. They lost people who really had the 18 savvy to appreciate the dose-response. 19 One doesn't inquire what dose means just 20 in a meeting like we're having, Steve, where -- like 21 you're reviewing a book here or there. One does 22 that with years of experience, and you actually 23 develop a feeling for that. Okay. 24 Q. Were you a -25 A. Ter Haar --
Page 248
1 Q. Excuse me. 2 A. Ter Haar did not have that perception, and 3 that had been evidenced by things that he published, 4 by conversations with him, that type of thing. 5 So, as a contributor, you know, they -6 they hadn't really responded in a meaningful way to 7 the breathing air system. And then I end up with a 8 boss who can't understand -- doesn't have the 9 experience or didn't have the experience at that 10 time to have true insight into the dose-response, 11 the cause-and-effect relationship for occupational 12 health, occupational medicine. 13 William Rinehart came closer to it because 14 he was a toxicologist; but Ter Haar was a Ph.D. 15 chemist, I believe. 16 Q. Are you finished? Are you finished? 17 A. Yeah. 18 MR. RICE: Object to the
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (52 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 19 responsiveness. 20 BY MR. RICE: 21 Q. Doctor -- you did not know that 22 Dr. Burdick was the occupational medical physician 23 at Pasadena since the '50s? 24 A. No. No. 25 Q. You were not aware that he became --
Page 249
1 A. At Pasadena? Where -- where was -2 Pasadena? 3 Q. Houston. 4 A. I know Pasadena, California. I'm sorry? 5 Q. The Houston plant. We'll -- we'll call it 6 that. 7 A. Oh, that Dr. Burdick. Sure. I -- I knew 8 him. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. Yeah. Dr. -- yeah. Well, Dr. Burdick was 11 not -12 Q. Were you aware that he became the medical 13 director? 14 A. No. No. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. Dr. -- well, Dr. Burdick was not the 17 caliber of -- of physician as those -- those other 18 people. They're not in the same ballpark -19 MR. RICE: Let me object to --
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (53 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 20 A. -- knowledgewise. 21 MR. RICE: -- to the responsiveness. 22 BY MR. RICE: 23 Q. Were you aware that he was board-certified 24 in occupational medicine? 25 A. I'm --
Page 250
1 Q. You were not aware of that? 2 A. -- saying there's lots of people who are 3 certified industrial hygienists who are -- are not 4 really -- but I -- I had met Dr. Burdick several 5 times, you know. Okay. 6 Q. So, you were not aware that he was 7 board-certified in occupational medicine? 8 A. And I wasn't aware that he became medical 9 director for Ethyl Corporation, no. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. Remember our -- my conversation of how low 12 the power of the medical director within Ethyl went 13 from the time that I was hired, a man who was on the 14 board of directors, to the point where, my goodness, 15 a plant physician, who wasn't really seriously 16 respected by other occupational medicine people, 17 became medical director. If I would have known it, 18 I would have left then, if I hadn't left before. 19 MR. RICE: I object to the 20 responsiveness. 21 A. Sure. And he did the best he could. You
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (54 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 22 know, he was a -- he was a nice man and everything. 23 I'm not saying that. I'm just saying there was 24 probably a level of competency that is involved 25 there.
Page 251
1 MR. RICE: Let me object to the 2 responsiveness. 3 BY MR. RICE: 4 Q. Insofar as the Ethyl program, you recall 5 Dr. Kehoe -- that also involved in occupational 6 medicine for Ethyl was the Kettering labs. Did you 7 have any understanding of that? 8 A. Yes, I -- I -- when I was with Ethyl, I 9 read things -- Kehoe got a lot of data, but he 10 didn't publish very well. And he left the 11 organization in kind of a hole that there probably 12 was some justification for conduct, dose-response or 13 response kind of conduct, other than the course that 14 Ethyl took. But Kehoe had not written this all up. 15 And so, he had this great wealth of -- of 16 information that had not been prepared and was not 17 suitable -- suitable for publication, that probably 18 would have strengthened Ethyl as a manufacturer 19 of -- of tetraethyl and tetramethyl lead. 20 Q. Are you finished? 21 A. Well, I -- well, so that he had this 22 dotted-line input into the organization, probably
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (55 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 23 through the board of directors, and probably 24 informally with whoever was medical director or 25 acting medical director of Ethyl Corporation.
Page 252
1 Q. Were you aware that the Kettering -2 MR. RICE: Excuse me. Let me 3 object to the responsiveness of the last 4 answer. 5 BY MR. RICE: 6 Q. Have you -- were you aware that Kettering 7 labs provided industrial hygiene services to Ethyl 8 for many, many years? 9 A. No. No, I wasn't. 10 Q. Now, I believe you made some -11 A. I didn't see the evidence of that, Steve. 12 Q. I believe you've made some statement at 13 the last deposition that you were the first 14 industrial hygienist for Ethyl? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. All right. But you didn't understand -17 A. To my knowledge. Okay. To my knowledge. 18 And I think that probably if you go back and look at 19 the tape, that -- that that was so. Now -20 Q. Did you understand that Kettering had -21 you didn't understand, then, that Kettering had 22 provided industrial hygiene services to Ethyl 23 before -- long before you arrived? 24 A. Yes -- no. No, I didn't.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (56 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 25 Q. And did you ever know a man named
Page 253
1 Harry Wheeler, who was an industrial hygienist for 2 Ethyl before you arrived? 3 A. Well, he wasn't under full-time employ, 4 okay, or else you're saying that Roush and -- and 5 all these people are liars. 6 Q. Did you know him or not? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. No. I -- I recall the name, and I -- I 10 may have known him at that time, Steve, but through 11 contact at professional meetings or that type of 12 thing. It was never -- there's -- nothing that he 13 had written was ever shown to me while I was 14 employed or since I've been employed by Ethyl 15 Corporation. 16 Q. Are you aware that Dr. Rinehart was also 17 an industrial hygienist? 18 A. Dr. Rinehart is evidently a very good 19 toxicologist. 20 Q. I just asked you if you were aware he was 21 an industrial hygienist. 22 A. I'm aware of some blunders that he made in 23 sampling, not using isokinetic sampling and so on 24 and so forth that wasted a lot of their -- I 25 wouldn't consider that functionally Dr. Rinehart was
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (57 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
Page 254
1 an industrial hygienist. He made serious blunders 2 in evaluation that then made a bit of a problem for 3 me in that what I required to do the evaluation was 4 a lot more complicated than what Bill had done. 5 So, he gave no -- he demonstrated no 6 proficiency in industrial hygiene; and he never told 7 me -- he never claimed to be an industrial 8 hygienist. He only claimed -- he didn't even claim 9 to be medical director when the outfit made him 10 medical director. Okay. He -- he presented himself 11 as a -- a toxicologist, and he worked awfully hard 12 at it. He was, I think, a very sincere, kind of a 13 wonderful fellow. 14 MR. RICE: Let me object to the 15 responsiveness of your answer. 16 BY MR. RICE: 17 Q. Were you aware that he was certified in 18 industrial hygiene? 19 A. No. 20 Q. You were not aware of that? 21 A. No. In later years I was surprised -22 every once in a while I would see him at an 23 industrial hygiene meeting. But during my working 24 with Ethyl Corporation, he never went to the -- to 25 the meetings. He never went to the industrial
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (58 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
Page 255
1 hygiene meeting. He never went to a local meeting 2 that I'm aware of. 3 You know, one -- one has their monthly 4 local meetings and that type of thing; and Bill 5 never attended those, to my knowledge. He never 6 went to the annual meetings. I saw -- after I left 7 Ethyl Corporation, I believe I bumped into him at 8 the New Orleans meeting; but that was after I left 9 Ethyl Corporation. 10 He didn't go to any of the meetings, and 11 he never presented himself as an industrial 12 hygienist. 13 Q. So, your position is that he is not -14 MR. RICE: Excuse me. Let me object 15 to the responsiveness of the last answer. 16 BY MR. RICE: 17 Q. Your position is that he was not 18 practicing as an industrial hygienist? 19 A. Yeah. And -- and I would -- I would 20 question his competency as an industrial hygienist 21 very seriously. And there's proof of it. 22 MR. RICE: I object to the 23 responsiveness of that comment. 24 BY MR. RICE: 25 Q. Lead was one of the -- was -- tetraethyl
Page 256 file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (59 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
1 lead was one of the primary products of Ethyl; is 2 that correct? 3 A. I believe so, Steve. I -- they made vinyl 4 chloride. They were a world leader in making vinyl 5 chloride. Which produced the most dollars, which 6 produced the greatest volume, I really don't know. 7 But it is certainly one of their -- their leading 8 products, or was. 9 Q. Okay. And as you said, I believe, Kehoe 10 infused a good attitude on the handling of lead; is 11 that correct? 12 A. Yeah. He attempted to do -- what the 13 Federal agency tried to do with vinyl chloride, he 14 attempted to do that with lead -- get the exposure 15 down as low as humanly possible. In fact, I was 16 told that he did not want to have any exposure to -17 to alkyl lead, to organic lead, and that he would do 18 walk-throughs through the Baton Rouge facility. 19 And one can smell lead. It has a sweet 20 odor. And if he would smell that, then even in 21 areas where there were not human beings, then he 22 would get upset. 23 Engineering at the facility was not able 24 to meet that rigorous requirement. And Kehoe, I 25 think, then finally gave in and said, okay, hire an
Page 257
1 industrial hygienist.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (60 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 2 Q. The -- let's talk a little bit about 3 Ethyl's - 4 A. Are we through with this vinyl chloride? 5 Q. For the moment. 6 A. Okay. I -- I want to put it back, Steve, 7 because it -- it -- that went in No . 6? Okay. 8 Thank you. Go ahead. 9 Q. Let's talk a little bit about the lead
10 program at Ethyl. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. First of all, there were certain 13 monitoring activities that went on concerning people 14 who worked in the lead areas. Do you recall that? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. All right. For instance, the urine was 17 monitored; is that correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Because the lead shows up in the -20 A. That's -21 Q. -- urine, does it not? 22 A. That's one of the things that took me to 23 Ethyl Corporation. Remember, I had come from 24 Tennessee Valley Authority and had a reasonably good 25 job there and so on and so forth.
Page 258
1 But here was an organization that was 2 using biological indicators, rather than using some
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (61 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 3 sort of number. Okay.
They were using biological
4 indicators; and one could then see, as the
5 biological indicator worsened, as the blood lead
6 elevated, or the urine lead when you're talking
7 about tetraethyl lead -- as it grew to be more, you
8 could treat that person before injury, hopefully.
9 Okay.
10 Q. So, that's why --
11 A. This then -- this then was the essence,
12 see -- this was the beauty of the dose-response.
13 While I was with TVA, we were really in -- more into
14 the dose end of things, okay, measurement and more
15 of a technician kind of function.
16 At Ethyl you could really practice
17 industrial hygiene because one would have a -- one
18 foot in engineering and one foot in occupational
19 medicine. And they were not just protecting to meet
20 OSHA regulations.
21 You recall that the fellow that hired me
22 really -- the spirit of the fellow that hired me to
23 Ethyl Corporation was Dr. Roush, George Roush. And
24 George -- we would go to lunch together; and he
25 would hit his hand and say, "In medicine we need to
Page 259
1 protect every employee." Okay. 2 Just meeting some abstract number where we 3 had the variableness in human susceptibility to 4 exposures does not protect every employee. I don't
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (62 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 5 think that even OSHA claims that. I don't think 6 anyone claims that, really, that's knowledgeable. 7 Here at Ethyl you realize how wonderful 8 that is, to use this concept of dose-response and 9 protect every one of God's creatures. Isn't that
10 wonderful? 11 And that's -- I -- I could have been 12 George Roush here at -- at that point in time. I 13 understand that George has Alzheimer's now. But 14 that's the way he talked to me and my first wife at 15 a country club when we were sitting -- when we were 16 first interviewed and hired by George. Okay. And 17 it was the beauty of that language that then brought 18 me to Ethyl Corporation. 19 Go ahead. 20 Q. I'm sorry to hear he has Alzheimer's. 21 A. That's hearsay on my part. I have not 22 seen him. 23 Q. The -24 A. I hope it's not. 25 Q. The urine samples were taken then if -- if
Page 260
1 someone showed elevated urine levels -- or -- excuse 2 me -- lead levels in their urine, then they were 3 removed from lead service; is that not correct? 4 A. Yes. The -- the reporting system was, to 5 the best of my knowledge -- now, I'm -- I'm not a
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (63 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 6 medicine -- a medical person.
Okay.
I'm not a
7 physician. I did not work and look at employee
8 histories and that kind of thing, unless they were
9 shared with me by medical. So, I didn't have access
10 to the methodology that people were asked to go in
11 and periodically review -- and -- and submit
12 their -- their urine for examination.
13 My understanding is that there was
14 faults -- there -- there were faults in the system,
15 that, in part, manufacturing was responsible for who
16 went and when. And so, I don't believe medical
17 would lay claim that every individual was examined
18 when it would have been appropriate for them here
19 to -- to be examined.
20 Q. I think you may be wrong about that.
21 A. I beg your pardon?
22 Q. I think you may be mistaken about that.
23 A. I -- I could be. I -- I started all this
24 by saying I was not in their employ and I -- I
25 became aware of situations where people fell in a
Page 261
1 hole, fell in a crack, and did not -- for -- for 2 instance, when they were scheduled to go in, if they 3 were sick or out and they were out for some length 4 of time, then they were dropped and -5 inadvertently, not intentionally. They would be 6 lost to the system and not recognized. 7 I can remember Ted Robinson coming in and
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (64 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 8 scratching his head that somebody hadn't been 9 examined for several -- a couple of years or -- or
10 missed a time or something like that. Okay. 11 Q. They also -12 A. I don't recall. 13 Q. They also monitored the lead area, did 14 they not, for levels of lead in the air? Are you 15 aware of that or -16 A. This -17 Q. -- were you aware of that -18 A. Of -19 Q. -- they did that? 20 A. -- lead areas, yes. 21 Q. Okay. Were you aware that they did that 22 long before you got there? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. 25 A. Manufacturing did that themselves.
Page 262
1 Q. All right. 2 A. And this is -- you remember, that's - 3 that's what Kehoe said, monitor these areas and keep 4 them -- wait. I lost my tail here, the mike. 5 THE WITNESS: Do you want to check 6 and see if my voice is on there? I found out I 7 had been sitting on this thing. 8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: You're okay.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (65 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 9 THE WITNESS:
Okay.
Thanks.
10 A. Excuse me. Here we go.
11 BY MR. RICE:
12 Q. In the lead area they also provided --
13 A. Kehoe -- yeah, let me finish, though.
14 Kehoe had this concept that if all of the
15 areas were without lead, then people would be safe.
16 As they did the biological monitoring, which he had
17 set up, I -- I believe, they disproved that --
18 Kehoe's theory about the areas. Okay. 19 People did -- on opening vessels, on 20 untoward events, got exposures to lead; and yet, the
21 area monitors would all be acceptable. Ah-ah. So,
22 somebody made a case somewhere that what you needed
23 to do was an expert who could monitor what the
24 personal exposures were to lead.
25 And so, that occurred -- that transition,
Page 263
1 that augmenting of the area monitoring, occurred 2 during my tenure with -3 Q. But they had been doing -4 A. I didn't -5 Q. They had been doing area monitoring -6 A. I didn't do that -- I didn't do that 7 monitoring. 8 Go ahead. 9 Q. Okay. They had been doing area monitoring 10 for lead levels for a long time, is your
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (66 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
11 understanding, is it not? They had been doing lead
12 monitoring for quite a number of years before you
13 got there?
14
A.
I don't know the quite a number of years.
15 Okay. I -- I don't know when it was instituted. I
16 was never given any data. I was never shown any
17 data of area monitoring. All of this was under 18 the -- the control of manufacturing, and 19 manufacturing in a chemical organization from that
20 era is very close vested. Do you know -21 Q. Let me -22 A. -- what I mean by being "close vested"?
23 Q. Let me show you a document.
24 A. Sure. Are we -25 Q. I think this next exhibit is --
Page 264
1 MR. HOBSON: Would you like to take a 2 break? 3 THE WITNESS: Well, let him finish 4 what -- what he's doing here. And -- he's got 5 his mind on that. I don't want to -6 MR. RICE: Yeah. It won't take but a 7 minute. 8 THE WITNESS: A second cup of 9 coffee -- remember my little conversation 10 about dose-response and the coffee 11 illustration. Well, it proves out every time.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (67 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 12 MR. RICE:
Do you have Exhibit 7?
13 THE REPORTER: Not yet.
14 (DEPOSITION EXHIBIT TAYLOR NO. 7 WAS
15 MARKED)
16 A. I -- I have this now.
17 BY MR. RICE:
18 Q. Okay. Thank you.
19 A. Sure.
20 Q. Now, this was -- for the record, this is 21 an article entitled "Occupational Exposure to
22 Organic Lead Compounds," written -- if you'll see
23 down at the bottom, August of 1962. 24 A. Now, what -- what year did I go with Ethyl 25 Corporation?
Page 265
1 Q. Well, why don't you tell me? 2 A. Got-dog. 3 Q. It was 1972. Okay? 4 A. 1972. So, it was written ten years before 5 I went with Ethyl Corporation. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. Okay. In fact -8 Q. And - 9 A. -- that was before -- before I had the 10 formal training in industrial hygiene. 11 Q. Okay. And I -- the only reason I'm 12 showing you this, if you'll just look over here on 13 page --
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (68 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 14 A. I would rather -- I'd really prefer that 15 we read the whole thing, Steve. If you're going 16 to -17 Q. Well, you -- you -- let -- let's do this. 18 A. Sure. 19 Q. I'll let you do that at the break and -20 if you want to. I just want to use this to show you 21 that -22 A. I would like to read it into the record to 23 see what the context is; but go ahead, please. 24 Q. I just wanted to show you -- look over on 25 the third page of it, Table 2. You see the table
Page 266
1 there? 2 A. Yeah, uh-huh. 3 Q. Okay. And it's talking about average 4 concentration of lead in the air of working 5 environment -6 A. Yes. 7 Q. -- and in the urine of workers. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And it gives some 21 persons. You see 10 that? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. And it -- it shows the -- the -13 the lead concentrations in their work area. Do you 14 see that?
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (69 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 15 A. Well, it's -- it's "Average concentration
16 of lead in" --
17 Q. Right. Atmosphere --
18 A. Now, hold it. Hold it. In -- in --
19 where - - where does it say -20 Q. "In atmosphere of work area. "
21
A.
Okay. Okay.
"In atmospheres of work
22 areas, milligrams per cubic foot."
23 Q. Okay. 24 A. Okay. And then it also has in "Urine
25 milligrams per liter."
Page 267
1 Q. Right. 2 A. So, this is really more of a toxicologic
3 study, I would -- I would imagine from there, not an
4 industrial hygiene.
5 Q. Well, my point is simply --
6 A. But go ahead.
7 Q. -- that it shows that they were doing 8 industrial hygiene monitoring for levels of lead 9 certainly by in this time, '62?
10 A. No. Of work areas, Steve.
11 Q. I understand.
12
A.
Please, please differentiate
That's not
13 people exposure.
14 Q. Well --
15 A. Okay. The -- the -- I could be in the
16 neighboring room and you can go ahead and sample in
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (70 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
17 here and say that we're -- both of these rooms 18 encompass our work area. And so, you can sample 19 here. But I could be over in that other room,okay; 20 and my urine lead would -- would not relate to 21 whatever was in this room at all, see. 22 And -- and so, it -- it's this -- the 23 frustration of this. This is -- doesn't amount to 24 any -- doesn't mean anything, you see. And that's 25 what OS- -- that's -- that's why we got the OSHA Act
Page 268
1 and why they said, "You've got to do personal
2 monitoring. Don't be trying to fool us anymore" -
3 to the whole country, all the chemical
4 manufacturers. Okay. And they demanded that -
5 Q. Excuse me. Are you trying to say somebody
6 was trying to fool something -- fool somebody --
7 A. This --
8 Q. -- because of this?
9 A. This -- no . This data unintentionally
10
fools the person, as it's fooled you, Steve.
I'm
11 trying to help you.
12 Q. It hasn't fooled me. Okay?
13 A. Oh, okay.
14 Q. So, don't tell me that.
15 A. All right.
16 Q. All right. Look at the results. It says
17 the average -- on the -- excuse me. The next page?
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (71 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 18 A. Under "Results." 19 Q. Yeah. 20 A. Yeah. 21 Q. "The average concentrations of tetraethyl 22 lead or tetramethyl lead in the air to which each 23 individual was exposed in this spec- -- his specific 24 occupational environment during the two periods of 25 time, as well as the average level of concentration
Page 269
1 of urinary lead of each man are presented..." 2 Is that correct? Is that what it says? 3 A. Just hold up, Steve. 4 (Reading) The average concentration of 5 tetraethyl or tetramethyl lead in the air to which 6 each individual was exposed in a specific time - 7 period of time, as well as the average level of 8 concentration of urinary of each man during those 9 two periods are presented in Table 2. Yeah. 10 Now, Steve, you can say anything in this 11 world. Okay. 12 Q. I agree with that. 13 A. Ethyl learned how -- see, I don't know 14 here -- ten years before I was there -- had they 15 learned how to really sample -- see, you didn't give 16 me an opportunity to look at method, see. 17 Q. Well, I'm going to allow 18 A. This section -19 Q. -- you to do that.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (72 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 20 A. -- here that says method of how they got 21 this. 22 Q. Sure. 23 MR. BLANKS: Lost the microphone. 24 BY MR. RICE: 25 Q. Why don't we take a break, and you can
Page 270
1 look at that if you want to and -2 A. Well, I will -3 Q. -- hold the break -4 A. I will read it when we're on, you know. 5 Q. You're welcome to do that. 6 MR. BLANKS: I don't mean to -7 THE WITNESS: I need to take a break 8 I'm going to take a -- I need to have a break. 9 MR. RICE: Great. 10 THE WITNESS: The coffee is telling 11 me that. 12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record, 13 10:28. 14 (A BRIEF RECESS WAS HAD) 15 (MR. DERDEN IS PRESENT VIA 16 TELEPHONE). 17 (DEPOSITION EXHIBIT TAYLOR NO. 7 WAS 18 REMARKED AS TAYLOR NO. 8 WAS MARKED) 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the 20 record at 10:43.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (73 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 21 THE REPORTER:
What about Exhibit 7?
22 MR. RICE: Yeah. As I understand it,
23 Exhibit -- what we marked as Exhibit No. 7
24 should actually be Exhibit No. 8, rather than
25 Exhibit 7. Exhibit -- Exhibit 7 was already
Page 271
1 the slides; is that correct? 2 THE REPORTER: Yes, sir. 3 MR. RICE: Okay. 4 THE WITNESS: I would like to put 5 in -- in something -- excuse me, Steve, just 6 for a moment. 7 How many people in this room are 8 lawyers? How many people in this room are 9 lawyers? There in the corner, are you -- do we 10 have your attention? Are they lawyers down 11 there? 12 MR. BLANKS: Well, there are only 13 three people in here that aren't, to -- to 14 my -15 THE WITNESS: Okay. 16 MR. BLANKS: -- understanding. 17 THE WITNESS: The other group that 18 I've worked with that writes as bad as me 19 and -- and as physicians are lawyers, 20 evidently. And I would like to pass this 21 around again. And other than Sandy Collins and 22 Joe Blanks and Hersh Hobson, if you could,
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (74 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
23 print your name so it could be legible, because 24 I just can't make out these names. 25 So, if you would start that -- where is
Page 272
1 your name?
2 MR. LOKER: I object to this
3 proceeding. I would like to have questions and
4 answers so that our time is not being wasted.
5 THE WITNESS: Great.
6 MR. LOKER: Perhaps we can handle
7 that detail at break.
8 THE WITNESS: Okay. Would -- would
9 you pass this over to that gentleman who -- who
10 is upset.
11
Sorry to upset you.
I don't mean to.
12 A. In reference to the question that I was
13 asked about this article, "Occupational Exposure to
14 Organic Lead," which happened ten years before --
15 was written ten years and probably was in the works 16 for three years before that, before being published, 17 one of the things that you have to recognize is that
18 Ethyl gradually learned how to remeasure lead in
19 air. Lead is a solid substance, inorganic lead. 20 And so, when one samples lead in air at their 21 facility, one has to sample both for vapor and for
22 particulates.
23 This document, you know, you only allowed
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (75 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 24 me a chance to read the first couple of paragraphs, 25 so that I'm not at all sure that the chart that was
Page 273
1 referenced truly portrays the amount of area lead 2 there because at this juncture, I don't -- I'm just 3 not aware of -- of how they did this. 4 There's a fellow at Ethyl Corporation who 5 was -- by the name of Lou Snider, Louis Snider, who 6 was the chemist who really developed this capacity, 7 to my knowledge, to measure both solid and organic 8 lead. And whether these people used that process or 9 not, I -- I don't have any way of knowing. 10 So, anything that I may have said about 11 that chart, I -- I have to back off on simply 12 that -- I'm -- I'm not knowledgeable enough about 13 the process ten years before I got there, Steve. Do 14 you understand what I -- I mean there? 15 BY MR. RICE: 16 Q. Are you finished? 17 A. You could be misled by -- by making -- or 18 arriving at conclusions from this data of what the 19 true exposure of people was to lead. Okay. 20 Q. Are you finished? 21 A. Just about. 22 MR. RICE: Object to the 23 responsiveness. There was no question. 24 BY MR. RICE: 25 Q. Mr. Taylor, in addition to the -- the
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (76 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
Page 274
1 things that we've talked about concerning lead, 2 there were also change houses, were there not, at 3 Ethyl, concerning the people who worked in the lead 4 area?
5 A. Yeah. Big -- big lockerrooms.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. Yeah.
8
Q. And workerswereprovided
clothing to
9 change in and out of; that is, work clothing; is 10 that correct?
11 A. Yeah, they were given - - to my -- the best 12 of my knowledge now, Steve, they were given three
13 change suits -- it may be a week. At times if they
14 had used the -- during my tenure, at times if they
15 had soiled on the fifth day their suit -- you know,
16 the three suits -- if they had soiled the third suit
17 that they were going to receive, they still wouldn't
18 get one until the next change. And I -- I had
19 people come to me and complain of that.
20 Q. Uh-huh.
21 A. Okay. So -22 Q. The --
23 A. So that they weren't -24 Q. They were required to shower; is that 25 correct?
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (77 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
Page 275
1 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes. 2 Q. All right. And -3 A. And that was mostly practiced, too. 4 Q. All right. And the people, anybody that 5 worked in that area -- that is, the lead area -- was 6 required to follow the -- these practices, whether 7 you were a contractor or a -- an employee; is that 8 correct? Do you recall that? 9 A. There's -- when you start talking about 10 having people shower -- see, you say they're 11 required to shower, so on and so forth. We could 12 ask everyone in this room and say, okay, when we 13 finish with this, everyone needs to take a shower. 14 And we could require that. 15 Your compliance, you'd find that about a 16 third of the people won't do it. Okay. They'll 17 fake it. They'll do -- they'll go in and change 18 their clothes, so on and so forth. But there is a 19 social problem there. 20 These people were from Southern 21 Louisiana. Most of them that I knew were what they 22 call Cajun people. And they really didn't care 23 this -- for this open shower room. Okay. So, some 24 showered; and some didn't. That's just -25 Q. Okay.
Page 276 file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (78 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
1 A. And that wasn't -2 Q. The -3 A. -- wasn't really enforced, wasn't 4 required. 5 Q. There was also positive ventilation in the 6 lead area, was there not? Do you recall that? 7 A. Yes. But obviously, it didn't have a -8 by this -- by this article that you suggest, even if 9 this only -- it didn't work -- it didn't remove all 10 lead. The -- the article, itself, that you put 11 into -- testifies to that. 12 Q. Didn't you consider that the -- the 13 ventilation of the lead area was certain- -14 certainly some -- some of the best in industry? 15 A. At that point I did not have the 16 perspective that I have now, Steve. It was all I 17 knew in industry, especially initially. Okay. I 18 had not been -- I'd never been to the DuPont 19 facility where they manufactured lead. That would 20 be the only thing that you could really compare 21 with. And I've just never been there. I wasn't 22 there at that time. 23 That -- I -- I had a client in Petersburg 24 that was best in the industry, and I -- I know 25 that. You couldn't smell any odors; but at the
Page 277
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (79 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 1 tetraethyl lead plant, you could smell odors.
2 Q. Okay. And that -- that is one of the
3 reasons you had -- you also had respiratory
4 protection in -- in the lead area, did you not?
5 A. Yes. You had -- as I recall, there were
6 full-facepiece canisters at every elevation, at
7 every landing outside of the work area. And certain
8 of the tasks had air line respirators. You know -9 Q. Depending on what -10 A. We talked about air line the last -- last 11 time. And -- and they breathed noxious gas from the
12 air line. 13 Q. So, depending on what the task was
14 would - - would sometime determine what the 15 respiratory protection requirement was?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. Let me go back to your time period
18 at the Tennessee Valley Authority for a moment.
19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What type of monitoring did you do there? 21 A. We monitored for -- this was a
22 construction -- I was responsible for the 23 construction of steam plants and Brown's Ferry
24
nuclear plant, which was going in underground.
So,
25 we had silica monitoring there. We had dust
Page 278
1 monitoring there. Okay. 2 Q. Did you do any monitoring for -file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (80 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
3 A. I -- I had responsibility for construction
4 of steam plants where there would be chemicals. For 5 instance, my first real exposure to formaldehyde, 6 the chemical formaldehyde, was at a construction
7 site at Brown's Ferry nuclear plant. So, it had 8 lots of different chemical sampling and -- and 9 evaluation, so as chemical --
10
We also monitored for noise.
In
11 construction noise is (indicating) quite a problem.
12 And we attempted -- for instance, at Brown's Ferry, 13 when people were going into reactor vessels, we 14 attempted -- huge vessel, perhaps it would have half
15 the number of cubic feet in this room, be a bit
16 longer, maybe all the cubic -- this room turned on
17 end. When you make noise inside of that thing, it
18 would be harmful, be detrimental to hearing. So, we
19 monitored noise. 20 I also at that point in time invented a
21 dosimeter of -- remember how the tires on cars used 22 to crack with ozone, particularly out on the West
23 Coast and certainly in Texas. And they added
24 antioxidants then to automobile tires, to that
25 rubber, so that the tires wouldn't crack.
Page 279
1 At -- at that point I invented a -2 because of illness in welders, I invented a -- a 3 dosimeter that the welder could place inside their
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (81 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 4 face mask, that then the welder could look and -5 look at these cracks. You could see them visually 6 and think, holy smokes, if this is happening to -7 to this piece of rubber, what's happening to my 8 lungs? 9 And so, gradually we got ventilation
10 control of -- at construction sites of people that 11 were doing welding and -- particularly on stainless 12 steel. 13 Q. Now, they also used -14 A. So, I -- lots of chemicals and noise. All 15 of the stresses I worked with, yeah. 16 Q. Okay. They also used asbestos in the 17 steam plants, around the turbines and things like 18 that? 19 A. Yeah. 20 Q. All right. 21 A. My -- my forte -- I was -- I was 22 responsible for the construction division. Okay. 23 Q. Well, wasn't -24 A. I wasn't -25 Q. Didn't they use the asbestos --
Page 280
1 A. I didn't -2 Q. -- in the construction? 3 A. We never focused on that, Steve. 4 Q. Did you do any asbestos monitoring while 5 at -- while you were at the Tennessee Valley --
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (82 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 6 A. Not to my knowledge, no. There was a 7 fellow there by the name of Tom -- a Civil Service 8 employee -- Tom -- and he had responsibility for the 9 industrial hygiene in the steam plants. Okay. My
10 responsibility was in -- in construction and chance 11 or whatever, 50,000 square miles, 30,000 employees. 12 My -- you know, it's just within real probability 13 that there would be things in construction, stresses 14 in construction that I wouldn't be aware of. Okay. 15 So, we never got to that. I -- I don't remember 16 any -- I don't have any recall that I ever did 17 that. I'm sure that -- that Tom did. 18 We had -- we monitored for mercury. We 19 had -- we had a fellow that lost a kidney that -20 in -- in one of the plants and -21 Q. Would it be accurate to say -22 A. -- so then we learned from that to -- to 23 monitor for mercury almost before they had 24 instruments to -- to help with that, you see. 25 Q. You monitored for those things that you
Page 281
1 felt was the most important at the time? 2 A. That I was aware of. See, in that 3 recognition, there's part -- remember, we were -4 Q. Right. 5 A. -- talking about mind, body, and soul. If 6 my mind, body, and soul hadn't been given -- been
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (83 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 7 alerted to some things, then, you know, so be it. 8 Q. Sure. Let me go to the time period after 9 Ethyl. I believe you went to the Stanford Research
10 Institute? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. All right. Who was your supervisor there? 13 A. Whew, good question. Dr. -- he was a 14 medical doctor. The fellow that hired me there, a 15 medical doctor; and I do not recall his name. They 16 had -- they had an interesting setup there. 17 They -- they had an administrative fellow 18 who certainly wasn't knowledgeable about 19 dose-response. And then they had this -- a medical 20 doctor. I can remember going with the medical 21 doctor to put a pitch on in Washington, to some 22 program that they'd put together. Okay. 23 The administrative fellow was not 24 competent in industrial hygiene, but he had been 25 working for OSHA or something. And SRI hired him,
Page 282
1 because he knew all the people to talk to to get 2 contracts for SRI. 3 You see, like I was hired because I -4 people in the chemical business trusted me. And SRI 5 wanted to go visit these plants and find out what 6 their exposures had been. This chap was hired 7 because he had the political knowledge to -8 Q. Well, was he your supervisor?
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (84 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
9
A.
Not to my knowledge.
I always thought the
10 medical director was my supervisor.
11 Q. Well, who did you report to, the medical 12 director or this fellow? 13 A. Well, see, we had the matrix 14 organizational structure that I talked about last
15 time. And I'm not clear that I -- I ever
16 actually -- you know, we had meetings. And I'm not
17 clear that I reported, really, to anyone. 18 You -- you went -- you -- you had -- had a 19 kind of a situation where people are empowered, and
20 that wasn't a -- there was an industrial hygiene 21 fellow that used to teach industrial hygiene 22 engineering, University of Michigan, who worked in
23 mines. And I would ask him to review things that I
24 wrote, but he wasn't my supervisor. He was a
25 coworker. See -- so, I -- I can't answer that,
Page 283
1 Steve. Ask -- ask them. 2 Q. Well, I -- do you remember the name of
3 either the medical director or the other person who 4 you think you might have reported to? 5 A. I -- I -- I have the -- a picture of the
6
medical director.
He's a big man.
I think he had
7 seven kids. He lived in a community about ten miles 8 east of us, Sunnyvale and -- Sunnyvale or
9 Sunnydale. And, boy, he had a flock of kids. And I
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (85 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 10 remember visiting him at his home, and I can picture 11 his appearance. And I made some trips with him. 12 But the other chap who was the -- the 13 administrator was shorter and darker. He had dark 14 hair. And that's about as close as I -- as I can 15 come to it. I don't know his name, Steve. I'm 16 sorry. 17 Q. Did you not get along with him? 18 A. I don't know that I really had opportunity 19 to get along with him or not get along with him. I 20 didn't really have much contact with him. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. His -- his -- his interface was with the 23 Government. Okay. 24 Q. Did you have any problems with management 25 at SRI?
Page 284
1 A. Yes. Yeah, I did. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q. You made a comment that <one of the reasons 5 you left SRI is because you felt that the Government 6 didn't want to hear about negative findings. You 7 made -- you made that statement in your first -8 A. Yes. 9 Q. -- deposition. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Could you explain to the jury, just to
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (86 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 12 make sure the jury understands, what "negative 13 findings" means? 14 A. Okay. Negative findings would be where -15 in that context would be where you didn't find a 16 problem. Okay. They -- they weren't interested in 17 negative. They wanted positive findings, where we 18 had found that this benzyl chloride, I believe, had 19 caused disease. 20 I'd found this Stauffer plant. Stauffer, 21 they checked up on me; and they said, "Okay, Henry, 22 you can come in" and -- and I went into their 23 facility someplace in -- in New Jersey. And I saw 24 this huge mountain of -- of waste materials that 25 polluted New Jersey that they talked about and
Page 285
1 talked about for some time that was within view of 2 this facility. 3 And -- and, by golly, these folks had been 4 working with benzyl chloride -- and I believe 5 20 years. And some of them had been retired -6 maybe 40 years. And -- and some of them had been 7 retired for 20 years. 8 And with the records that they had at that 9 facility, these people were in reasonable health. 10 And so, I was naive; and I reported that to the 11 people that -- in our system. This got back to the 12 Federal system that was funding us. I learned that
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (87 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 13 SRI had about 80 percent of their contracts were 14 Government contracts. I didn't know that when I 15 went there. 16 And the -- what was fed back to me, even 17 over the telephone, I believe -- but I don't know by 18 whom -- was that they weren't interested in negative 19 information. They wanted to know information that 20 was injurious to people. They didn't want to know 21 safe exposure information. Okay. Now, in -- in -22 thanks to you, you got my recall, contributing to 23 SRI's experience, as I was on that tour for benzyl 24 chloride, I was -- I became aware that the 25 Government contract, the people who were paying SRI,
Page 286
1 would require of me or expected of me that if I 2 found something that was of imminent hazard to their 3 employees, that I would not say anything to those 4 employees nor to the management at the site but that 5 I would go out and tell OSHA or whoever had the 6 contract. It might have been NIOSH. Okay. 7 And that revolted me. My responsibility 8 is to protect the life and limb and the families of 9 everyone in the workplace. If I see you, Steve, 10 sitting the way you are and I say, "Gee, you're 11 going to get an ergonomic problem with your elbows," 12 I feel it is my responsibility, if I have been given 13 that expertise, to alert you to that right now. 14 If I don't, I'm shirking my professional
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (88 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 15 responsibility as an industrial hygienist. I would 16 not ever go out of this room and leave you in a 17 life-threatening situation and go tell the 18 management of this hotel, okay, and have them come 19 and correct you or call up Ann -- whatever her name 20 is that runs the legal department at Ethyl -- that 21 you were at life threat, that they needed to do 22 something different. 23 I objected to their requiring that. And 24 from their point of view, then that was grounds for 25 termination, okay, because I -- I couldn't -- I
Page 287
1 couldn't go along with their customer, you see, 2 asking me to betray. I was going into there -- I -3 I got into there because I was a -- a friend. They 4 trusted me. And so, I'm supposed to betray that 5 friend and take their dirty linen and shake it 6 outside of their organization. And I refused to do 7 that. 8 I -- I was a volunteer fire chief, started 9 a volunteer fire department in Baton Rouge, outside 10 of Baton -- on the edge of Baton Rouge, a district, 11 a fire district. And I felt the responsibility for 12 those people, those volunteer firefighters very 13 much. They were what's called coon-ass folks, and 14 they would go up on a roof of a burning building and 15 chop through. And I had promised their wives that I
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (89 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 16 wouldn't get anyone killed when we met at a hospital 17 and -- and -- or at a -- a high school in the area. 18 And we didn't have insurance. We didn't have those 19 kind of things. 20 The letter that I sent to the Secretary of 21 State or something like that, some great person in 22 Washington, D.C., I took my fire badge and -- and 23 outlined that badge and talked of my responsibility 24 as a firefighter and -- and said that my 25 responsibility was directly to those people; and if
Page 288
1 I saw a risk, my responsibility was to alert those
2 people at risk. 3 The Federal agency said, "No, your
4 responsibility, if you're going to take our money, 5 you're going to do what we say; and your
6 responsibility is to tell us first, before you do
7 anything else." That was what was transmitted to
8 me. 9
But I don't have a copy of that letter
10 anymore. But it was -- it was -- I did have it for
11 some years, but it -- it has escaped our system
12 now. At least I haven't found it. We haven't found
13
it in our -- our search.
I didn't think it was
14 necessary to try to find out.
15 And so, that was another point of -- I --
16 I wasn't told that I was going to have to betray my
17 friendship or people's friendship with me when I
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (90 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
18 went with SRI. And they couldn't live with that 19 because the -- my understanding was that -- and 20 perhaps this administrator -- but I think it went 21 above him. I think there was -- it was the director 22 of SRI, whoever the medical director reported to,
23 was somebody who really ran SRI. 24 Q. Well, did SRI ask you to leave?
25
A.
Yes.
Yeah.
I was terminated.
Yeah
Page 289
1 Yeah.
2 Q. Let me ask you a few questions about
3
asbestos.
The -- you did some asbestos sampling, as
4 I understand it, in Baton Rouge and Houston; is that
5 correct?
6 A. Yes. To the best of my knowledge, I
7 probably did asbestos sampling other where -8 Q. Okay.
9 A. -- other places, too. 10 Q. All right. And, of course, you've used 11 your own judgment in where you should monitor, I 12 would assume, as an industrial hygienist, is what
13 I'm - 14 A. Yeah, in -- in some situations, Steve - 15 see, I didn't have authoritative control over these 16 people. I had a functional input from the side. 17 Remember that I -- I was really reporting 18 to something that was low in the organizational
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (91 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 19 structure. So, I did not have authority to go and 20 do things where I chose to do them. I had to 21 describe and -- what I wanted to do and would be 22 allowed to do it or not be allowed to do it as -23 for reasons that I wouldn't necessarily 24 understand. I -- you know, I never went to a plant 25 within Ethyl Corporation nor within any other employ
Page 290
1 on my own volition. Always somebody had to say, 2 "Henry, will you come?" Okay. 3 At that time they called me "Hank." And 4 they -- they would say, "Hank, would you -- would 5 you come?" 6 And you'd get those kind of relationships 7 through time with folks. But that -- again, they 8 had to learn to trust me. 9 MR. RICE: Yeah. Let me object to 10 the responsiveness of your answer. 11 BY MR. RICE: 12 Q. You did monitoring for asbestos in certain 13 areas of Ethyl in Houston and Baton Rouge; is that 14 correct? 15 A. Yes; but not always at my judgment, see. 16 Q. Well, let me ask you this: Where did you 17 monitor for asbestos at Baton Rouge and at Houston? 18 A. I monitored at -- at areas that they would 19 allow me to monitor. For instance, if one is 20 traveling from Baton Rouge to Houston, if they
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (92 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
21 didn't schedule work that would handle asbestos on 22 the day that I was there -- or the days, if I were 23 there several days -- I wouldn't be aware of the 24 other work. Okay. 25 They had a -- a fellow, who became an
Page 291
1 industrial hygienist, who was the head of the union
2 at Ethyl -- at the Houston facility. And he 3 complained to me. He -- he says, "They're --
4 they're only letting you see what they want you to
5 see," you see.
6 Well, I had no control over that, Steve. 7 You -- you see, my judgment, if I were given 8 authority here, I wouldn't just test your hearing or
9
Pat's hearing or my hearing.
I would test
10 everyone's hearing. 11 But I -- I never had that view of any
12 facility. I never had -- I started to come close to
13 it in my learning and said this is the way I'm going
14 to do things when I got with Allied. Okay.
15 I did that in -- in certain of the things 16 that I did for SRI, that I did a chemical 17 evaluation, if you will, for benzene at -- at an old
18 client of mine. 19 But there's not a lot of instances --
20 today that's the way I work. But if people hire
21 REC, Incorporated, I am going to call the shots.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (93 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 22 And it doesn't make me real popular with a lot of 23 companies and I will write a report and I will make 24 recommendations. 25 And if you can't go along that with the
Page 292
1 get-go, then I'll give you a name of a good 2 technician who will go measure anything you want and 3 if it's bad, won't report it. That's -- that's 4 fine. I don't do that. 5 MR. RICE: Object to response. 6 A. In fact, in those instances where you're 7 under the employ of the person, that happens to 8 you. You see? 9 MR. RICE: Object to the 10 responsiveness of the answer. 11 BY MR. RICE: 12 Q . Where did you monitor - - my question was: 13 Where in Baton Rouge and in Houston or Pasadena did 14 you -15 A . Where I was -16 Q . -- monitor? 17 A . Where I was allowed to, where they were 18 conducting tasks that somebody who did not know 19 about the dose-response relationship would say, 20 "Okay, we'll set this up for him." Okay. 21 MR. RICE: Object to the 22 responsiveness. 23 BY MR. RICE:
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (94 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 24 Q. Mr. Taylor, where did you monitor? Do you 25 understand that question?
Page 293
1 A. Okay.
2 MR. HOBSON: Objection, asked and
3 answered.
4 BY MR. RICE: 5 Q. Can you answer the question: Where in the 6 plant did you monitor? 7 A. I don't believe that I monitored in the
8
plant, per se.
I monitored in -- in the operation
9 part of the plant. I believe that I monitored in
10 the maintenance shop. Okay. And I monitored -- you
11 saw one slide there where they were pulling asbestos
12 off of a large duct. 13 For the life of me, Steve, I don't know
14 where that was. I don't know if that was in the
15 side of the maintenance shop -- I suspect it was,
16 and I suspect that that just happened to happen
17 while I was there. And I did something a little bit
18 illegal because what -- what I was scheduled to
19 monitor was the sawing operation.
20 And it was the same thing in --
21 particularly in Houston. There's no way that my 22 work there represented what was a typical exposure
23 to asbestos. I -- I hadn't looked at it all. I
24 can't make that judgment. I can just speak about
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (95 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 25 those that I monitor -- that I did monitor.
Page 294
1 MR. RICE: Object to the 2 responsiveness. 3 (DEPOSITION EXHIBIT TAYLOR NO. 9 WAS 4 MARKED)
5 A. Is this marked No. 9? Okay. Thanks. 6 Well, you knew that I knew Dr. Burdick; 7 that I had met him, at least. 8 (DEPOSITION EXHIBIT TAYLOR NO. 10 WAS 9 MARKED)
10 BY MR. RICE: 11 Q Mr. Taylor -12 A Yes. 13 Q -- Exhibit 9 -14 A Yes. 15 Q -- is a memo from you to Dr. Burdick, 16 dated October 18, 1972; is that correct? 17 A Yes. 18 Q All right. And you were asked to perform 19 some evaluation of, I guess, asbestos exposures at
20 the Houston plant?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. All right. Now, your -- you have a
23
summary here in the second paragraph.
It says,
24 "Concerning potential asbestos hazard, the data
25 collected and displayed in the attached table
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (96 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
Page 295
1 indicates operator respir- -- respiratory protection
2 is not necessary" --
3
A.
Wait. Wait.
I -- I lost, Steve.
4 Where --
5
Q.
This is under --
6
A.
Is it underneath "Summary"? Okay. The
7 data. I -- I pick it up. Go ahead. 8 Q. At any rate, you say that "operator
9 respiratory protection is not necessary during" -10 and then you set forth four areas where you did not
11 consider respiratory protection necessary; is 12 that -13 A. Yep. 14 Q. -- correct? 15 A. Yep. 16 Q. And those include "asbestos material 17 handling in the stores area"? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. "Sodium cell insulag scraping"? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. "Sodium cell dismantling"? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And "listing tape application and/or
24 removal"; is that -25 A. Yes.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (97 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
Page 296
1 Q. -- correct?
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. All right. 4 A. And if you'll recall, Steve, that was the
5 same stuff that we had on the slides. Okay.
6 That's -- except in -- in Baton Rouge -- I was
7 located in Baton Rouge, and I could see the
8
process .
This, then, was spoon fed to me, okay,
9 in -- in this maintenance area; and it's -- it's not 10 as exhaustive as -- as we did in Baton Rouge.
11 Q. Okay. 12 A. For instance, it's a sodium cell --
13 Q. It's the --
14
A.
-- scraping.
It's the sodium cell
15 dismantling. But it's not the sodium cell assembly.
16 Q. All right.
17 A. Okay. That's -- that's -- it's -- it's
18 not as what you saw.
19 Q. You have the same process in Baton Rouge 20 as you did in Houston; is that accurate?
21 A. I -- I don't know.
22 Q. All right.
23 A. I -- I would imagine it's pretty close.
24 I -- I --
25 Q. Okay.
Page 297 file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (98 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
1 A. But I -- I don't know.
2 Q. And then you did make some other
3 recommendations concerning band saw operation; is 4 that correct? 5 A. I -- again, Steve, you're going in; and
6 I -- I need to read it.
7 Q. Sure.
8 A. Can I read the whole thing? 9 Q. Absolutely?
10
A.
Okay.
"Summary:
Concerning potential
11 asbestos hazard -- hazard, the data collected and
12 displayed in the attached table indicates operator
13 respiratory protection is not necessary during: 14 No. 1, asbestos material handling in the stores 15 area; 2, sodium cell insulag scraping; 3, sodium 16 cell dismantling; listing tape application and/or
17 removal.
18 "However, during sodium cell insulag
19 scraping and sodium cell dismantling other
20 particulate levels may be -- at intermittent times
21 become irritating to the operator. Hence, operator 22 use of Bureau of Mines approved particulate
23 respirators during these operations is advised. 24 "A Bureau of -- BOM -- Bureau of Mines --
25 approved particulate respirator is recommended" --
Page 298 1 this would be what we call a "hepa" respirator file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (99 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 2 now -- "is recommended adequate protection for the 3 asbestos levels found during the band saw operation 4 and TEL still installation (sic), dismantling and 5 cleanup." 6 Okay. Although there is nothing that says 7 here that -- that I've -- I've seen that, I knew 8 that those went on. And so, I made that 9 recommendation, which was probably beyond my -- what
10 I had seen. I was -- I was trying to build a 11 program. I was trying to get more done than had 12 been done at that point in time. 13 So, I make a recommendation that -- you'd 14 say, "Well, what did -- you didn't look at that. 15 It's not in your list there." You know, a fellow 16 like you would challenge it. 17 And that's all right. I tried to do what 18 I could do to improve. Remember what I said, what 19 we have to do is get the exposure levels down as low 20 as possible. And sometimes it was pretty onere. 21 But if something was an improvement, that's as best 22 I could do at that point in time. Okay. 23 Q. Well, you felt that at least in some of 24 these operations -25 A. Yeah.
Page 299
1 Q. -- though, that respiratory -2 A. Hold -3 Q. -- protection --
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (100 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 4 A. -- hold -5 Q. -- was not -6 A. Yeah. 7 Q. -- required; is that correct? 8 A. Yeah. Let -- let's read the whole thing, 9 though, Steve, okay, because I don't know. See,
10 they've changed procedures, see. And you -- you 11 can't take something written from 1972 and in 12 1997 -- and equate those because, for instance, 13 I -- I challenge this data here from Exhibit 8 14 because I'm not knowledgeable did they really catch 15 all of the lead there? 16 Now, I need to have an equipment and 17 method and -- and read that and see if that would 18 stand up in today's -- the way we've learned, the 19 evolution of -20 Q. Well -21 A. -- doing things. 22 Q. -- as you say, we've learned over the 23 years, haven't we? 24 A. "Air conveyed asbestos" -25 Q. Is that correct?
Page 300
1 A. Yes. Certainly. 2 "-- was collected by personal" -- okay -3 "personal and environmental sampling using open 4 face Millepore type AA filters, 37 millimeter, an
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (101 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 5 eighth of a micron pore size, using MSA Montair 6 pumps operating at a sample volume -- sampling rate 7 of 2 liters a minute. The samples were mounted in a 8 high-viscosity solution -- a high-viscosity solution 9 of membrane filter material for counting. Asbestos
10 fibers were counted at 400 times..." 11 I had been part of the first people who 12 set up asbestos monitoring in the United States. 13 Remember? I -- I don't know if I talked about -14 Q. How do you know that? 15 A. I beg your pardon? 16 Q. How do you know that? 17 A. I was asked to go to a laboratory -- I was 18 on the American Petroleum Institute; and API, to the 19 best of my knowledge, was in the forefront of trying 20 to develop some procedure that we could determine 21 what the people's exposure to asbestos was. 22 And I was one of about seven people. 23 Dick Brief (pronouncing) from Exxon, me, people from 24 different petroleum companies -- Fred Venable might 25 have been there from -- also from Exxon. And we
Page 301
1 went to a school at -- a laboratory in Detroit area 2 and -- what was -- I'm guessing -3 THE WITNESS: Herschel, what was the 4 fellow? He and his wife wrote -- Patty -5 MR. HOBSON: George Clayton. 6 A. George Clayton. There we go. I went to
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (102 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 7 the -- I was asked to go or told to go, directed to 8 go to this Clayton Laboratory. And they conducted a 9 school.
10 BY MR. RICE: 11 Q. Who -- who directed you -- directed you to 12 go there -- Ethyl, or was this -13 A. Yeah. Ethyl. Yeah. 14 And then we did a round-robin. We -15 we -- someone took a slide and sent it -- we sent it 16 from one person to the next person to see that we 17 were -- could standardize this method. So, I was 18 part of the -- of the operation that helped 19 standardize whether this method of detection for 20 asbestos could be -- was universally applicable. 21 Okay. 22 But that's an aside. High viscosity -23 so, then I did have the capability, see, and the 24 training and the expertise as -- as good as most 25 people did in the country, maybe better than most,
Page 302
1 to just go ahead and do this myself. Okay. And -2 "high viscosity solution of membrane filter -3 membrane filter material for counting. Asbestos 4 fibers were counted at 400 times magnification, 5 using phase contrast illumination with a Leit- -6 Leitz Labolux micro- -- microscope." 7 I'm into trifocals now, from the time here
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (103 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 8 I didn't wear glasses.
9 "Data handling followed that of generally
10 accepted conservative good practice since standard 11 methods have not yet been established. " 12 See. And - - and that's just confirming
13 what -14 Q. That's -15 A. We did the best we could as -- as these
16 procedures evolved. Okay.
17 "Please let me know if there are any 18 questions pertaining to this report or relating to
19 asbestos in general." With a copy to "T.C.
20 Coerver" -- I don't know. He might have been the
21 plant manager over at Houston -- and " Bill
22 Rinehart. " And at this time, in '72 - - I don't
23 know, Roush may have left. See, I -- I don't know
24 Okay. 25
So, then I look at the table ; and the
Page 303
1 table says "4 feet from the floor, below asbestos
2 storage bin." I would sample it 3 feet
3
now.
"Unloading 6-inch diameter by 3 foot,"
4 insulating pipe -- typo -- "number of fibers found,"
5 "time-weighted average," "none." 6 Now, during these studies, okay, and
7 during this time, there was no recognition of peak 8 exposure to asbestos. We weren't even considering 9 that. We thought -- at least I thought at that
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (104 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
10 point in time that the riskwas fromchronic
11 exposures.
12 I hadn't -- see, you remember, I -- I -
13 remember when I was talking in the conversation with
14 George -- George -- with Bock, okay. And Bock then
15 emphasized to me, "When you're dealing with
16 carcinogens, really, you don't want any exposure."
17 Okay.
18 I didn't have the capability to take
19 what's called today a 15-minute of peak exposure. I
20 didn't have the knowledge -- whether I was certified
21 or not, I didn't have the knowledge -- most people
22 in the world didn't have the knowledge to collect -
23
didn't knowenough
tocollect
a worst case
24 exposure. Do -- do you hear what -- what I'm trying 25 to say? All we were -- were getting was --
Page 304
1 Q. In fact, that's what - 2 A. -- average -3 Q. -- you did? 4 A. -- average exposures; right. 5 Q. You took worst case scenarios - 6 A. You're doing within -- right. 7 Q. -- didn't you? 8 A. You're -- you're doing within the law the 9 worst case that you can find, given the apparatus 10 that you have. Okay.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (105 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 11 Q. All right. Now - 12 A. And all of this had to be set up by - 13 and -- and I -- I haven't read any more of these 14 but -- see, they -- they have some people who are 15 wearing air line respirators. 16 Here, this is interesting. At the band 17 saw operator -- operation -- in the storage area, no 18 one was wearing a respiratory device. In the band 19 saw, they were wearing a particulate respirator, 20 Bureau of Mines approved. 21 Okay. In the sodium area outside, they're 22 wearing an air line respirator. Boys, they sure did 23 not do that over at -- you saw the sodium air line 24 area in Baton Rouge. They certainly didn't wear an 25 air line respirator in Baton Rouge. Okay.
Page 305
1 Now, I had done the work in Baton Rouge
2
before this, okay.
But -- and it could very well
3 have come in that the lawgot tighter and then they
4
required air line.
Okay.
But right at this -
5 you're doing a good favor because in '72,
6 essentially -- or '71 -- what you're saying by
7 introducing this is that in Baton Rouge people were
8 not protected as well as they were protected at
9 Houston. 10 Q. We'll get to your testimony
11 A. That's one of the things --
12 Q. -- about Baton Rouge.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (106 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 13 A. -- they tried to fight. 14 Q. We'll get to your testimony about Baton 15 Rouge -16 A. Sure. 17 Q. -- which you've already testified about 18 A. Sure. 19 Q. -- okay? 20 A. Sure. But again, in the sodium cell 21 area -22 Q. Did you tell the truth during your first 23 deposition? 24 A. To the best of my knowledge. 25 Q. All right.
Page 306
1 A. To -- in the sodium cell area, they're 2 wearing an air line respirator. Okay. And until I 3 see this, I didn't have recall of that, Steve. In 4 the sodium area on the first floor they're wearing a 5 particulate respirator. In the TEL building they 6 were wearing an air line respirator. Okay. 7 And again, these -- this was the stuff 8 that the head of the union, whatever his name is in 9 Houston, said that, "Henry, they're -- they're spoon 10 feeding what you're -- what you're seeing." 11 MR. RICE: Object to the 12 responsiveness. 13 A. Okay.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (107 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 14 BY MR. RICE: 15 Q. Do you say that on here? 16 A. I beg your pardon? 17 Q. Do you say that on this exhibit?
18 A. That's after the fact. See, what -19 Q. No. Do you say --
20 A. The way the system -21 Q. -- anything about that?
22 A. The way the system works is -- or worked
23
at that time was that I'd go over there.
I' d be led
24
in the door.
I would be led out the door.
I' d go
25
back to Baton Rouge.
I would make my report
The
Page 307
1 report then would be distributed to people. If they 2 disagreed at it -- with it, it had to be my next 3 visit before they could see me personally. 4 Q. Well, did you make some complaint to 5 somebody then about this, that this was not a -- a 6 true sample? Are you saying -7 A. I had no knowledge that it -- that it was. 8 Q. Well, you said that you -9 A. All -- all I -- Steve -10 Q. No, you said -11 A. All I -- don't -12 Q. -- later you came to know that. 13 A. Please. Okay? 14 Q. Is that true? 15 A. I'm sorry that I wasn't clear, Steve. All
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (108 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 16 I'm saying is that after the fact, after I had 17 visited this facility, I was told by the head of 18 their union that they had spoon fed me. So, what am 19 I to do? If -- if somebody treats you and misleads 20 you -21 Q. Who misled you? Who misled you? 22 A. I beg your pardon? 23 Q. Who misled you? 24 A. I said "somebody." How -- how does one 25 know?
Page 308
1 Q. Well, you tell me. Who - 2 A. How does one know? 3 Q. -- misled you? 4 A. If -- when you -- who misled you when you 5 showed up late for our -- our meeting last time? 6 Okay. Who -- who misled you? 7 See, it's that kind of a situation that - 8 that -- it -- it just isn't clear. You don't have 9 one person. You have a system that the system is 10 doing the best it can. 11 Those are good people doing the best they 12 could, Steve. Okay. And they thought they were 13 going to protect themselves, and they're not going 14 to have somebody come in from the outside and 15 show -- see, remember, when I -- I said by the time 16 I had gotten to -- to Allied, I knew enough to say,
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (109 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 17 get the process -- know the process. 18 I never got to know the insulation process 19 at Baton Rouge or at -- at Houston. Okay. I'm 20 sorry for that, and I wish that I had been -- I wish 21 I had the knowledge, you know. I -- I wish, you 22 know -- I'd like to hire somebody for our company 23 that has 20 years' experience and is 20 years old. 24 I'm constantly looking for that. 25 But at this point in time, I didn't know
Page 309
1 sufficient -- I -- I learned from this. You saw 2 what I said by the time we got to SRI, know the 3 process. And I taught that, and I've taught that 4 ever since and tried to do that the best I can 5 myself on any sort of industrial hygiene work we do, 6 know the process first. 7 But you learn from finding out that I had 8 made a -- a blunder here, or I -- I just didn' t have 9 the power to know the process. I -- I was -- it's a 10 very low level -- remember -11 Q. Did you -12 A. -- the reporting. 13 Q. Did you do anything -- you say that you 14 were -- you were spoon fed. Now, did -- when you 15 went back and found that out -16 A. That's what I was told, that I -- I was -17 Q. All right. Now -18 A. Okay?
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (110 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 19 Q. -- when you were told that, did you make 20 any report of that? 21 A. No. What, are you going to get the guy 22 fired? What good would that do for the company? He 23 was the head of the bloody union there. 24 Q. Did you report it or not? 25 A. No. It was common knowledge. It was
Page 310
1 common knowledge. Ask -- there was a fellow sitting 2 here before, Bob Cope; and -- and ask him. He 3 worked for Ethyl Corporation. I don't know if he 4 got over to the Houston plant, but a lot of things 5 were spoon fed to Bob. 6 MR. RICE: I object to the 7 responsiveness. 8 A. Sure. Sure. 9 MR. HOBSON: We need to change our 10 tape; and plus, we've told them we would take 11 lunch at 11:30, which has passed. 12 MR. RICE: Fine with me. 13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're off the 14 record at 11:31. 15 (LUNCH RECESS WAS HAD) 16 (MR. DERDEN IS PRESENT VIA TELEPHONE) 17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're on the 18 record at 12:30. 19 BY MR. RICE:
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (111 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 20 Q. Mr. Taylor, we were talking about some 21 monitoring for asbestos that you did in -- in both 22 Houston or Pasadena and Baton Rouge, I think, in the 23 '70 -- '72 time frame. And if you'll look at 24 Exhibit No. 10 -- do you have that? 25 A. You'll have to tell me what 10 is.
Page 311
1
THE REPORTER:
(Tendering)
2 BY MR. RICE: 3 Q. This is regarding, I believe, your 4 sampling of some asbestos in the sodium area at the
5 Baton Rouge plant. Is that what that appears to be?
6
A.
Yes.
In '72, October 18th, 1972.
7 Do you want me to read it?
8 Q. Well, you may read it to yourself, if
9 you'd like to, of course.
10 A. Okay. It's a "response to your request 11 for evaluation of the subject" -- see, where I was
12 telling you that I was directed to things, okay -13 "for your evaluation of the subject process in the
14 sodium area of the Baton Rouge plant."
15 So, this, again, is -- I was spoon fed;
16 they said, "Hey, come and monitor this." Okay.
17 That's -18
MR. RICE: I object to the
19 responsiveness and the comment.
20 BY MR. RICE:
21 Q. Go ahead.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (112 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
22 A. "Summary: The data collected and 23 displayed in the attached table indicates operator 24 respiratory protection is not necessary for asbestos 25 exposures encountered during this process."
Page 312
1
And -- okay.
"Equipment and method: Air
2
conveyed" -- wait.
I may have read this already.
3 Q. Yeah. It's the same -- same thing as the
4 other one, about equipment and method.
5 A. Okay. It's -- so, that's already been
6 read. I think I -- "Please let me know if there are
7 any questions pertaining to this report or relating
8 to asbestos in general." 9 And it went to Bock, who was -- really
10 R.C.A. was his initials. And R.C.A., of course, is
11 a radio entity and that was D'Armond -- Stanley, I
12 think -- was the person probably responsible,
13 loosely, for environmental things at that time in
14 the Baton Rouge facility.
15 Bock was the plant medical physician. And
16 because -- see, I don't know who asked me to do
17 this. And it went to Bill Rinehart, who at that
18 time, you know, very well is -- be my boss. And
19 W.C. Strader, who was -- was the plant manager.
20 I think D'Armond reported -- he was the
21 right arm of the fellow who was responsible for
22 their chemical division. So, he's above Strader,
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (113 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 23 the plant manager. 24 Q. All right. And so, you concluded in 25 your -- after your analysis and running your
Page 313
1 sampling that the op- -- operator respiratory 2 protection was not necessary for the asbestos 3 exposures during that process; is that correct? 4 A. And this was the -- yeah, and that's what 5 I said -6 Q. Okay. 7 A. -- last time -8 Q. Let me ask -9 A. -- on the -- on the slides -10 Q. Let me ask you this -11 A. -- that our data -- our data showed that. 12 Okay. 13 Q. Were you -- when you did the sampling for 14 asbestos, either in Houston or Baton Rouge, were you 15 wearing a respirator? 16 A. I -- I don't wear any protection that the 17 people that I'm with -- if they don't wear a 18 respirator, I don't. My -19 Q. My question was: Were you wearing a 20 respirator? 21 A. No -22 Q. Okay. 23 A. -- I was not. 24 Q. Thank you. Now --
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (114 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 25 A. You can get some serious exposures that
Page 314
1 way in my profession, too. 2 Q. The -- in Baton Rouge they had an 3 insulator craft; is that correct? Do you recall 4 that or not? 5 A. They had insulator workers -- some -6 sometimes they take people who are working with 7 insulation and combine them into -- with other
8
disciplines.
I don't know if they had a separate
9 insulator craft group --
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. -- or not.
12 Q. All right. And your understanding is that
13 they did maintenance -- insulation maintenance there 14 in the plant?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. And I believe you told us -- and
17 I'm looking now at your previous deposition -- that
18 in -- well, I believe referring to page 52 of your
19 prior deposition -20 A. Page -- yeah, let me look at 52 (reviewing
21 document). Yes, sir. Go ahead.
22
Q.
Excuse me.
I apologize.
Well, no, 52 --
23 A. Uh-huh. Where -- whereabouts on 52?
24 Q. Well, I guess at the beginning there, you
25 commented that the -- the men that were doing the --
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (115 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
Page 315
1 the insulating -- excuse me -- I guess they were in 2 the shop. We're talking about people who were doing 3 work in the shop, cutting asbestos, or cutting 4 insulation, anyway, whether it was asbestos or not. 5 A. Uh-huh. 6 Q. All right. And these men had access to 7 showers and clothing change; is that correct? 8 That's what -9 A. Uh-huh. 10 Q. -- you said in 52 -11 A. Uh-huh. 12 Q. -- on page 52? 13 Okay. 14 A. And they had access to respirator, also. 15 Q. Okay. That's correct. All right. 16 And then turning to page 59 of your 17 deposition, if you would. 18 A. Now, it -- it's interesting to note that 19 in the one facility they required air line 20 respirators, see. Whether you're required to do 21 something by law -- see, when you use that term 22 "required, " that's a legal thing; and the site in 23 many of these instances, part of their job would be 24 to wear a respirator. 25 And I've -- I always tried to develop a
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (116 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
Page 316
1 system such that if a person is under a threat, 2 particularly of a carcinogen, and their protection 3 is dependent upon a ventilation system, that should 4 the ventilation system fail, that then they would 5 still have this backup, if you will, of -- of a 6 respirator. And I've -- I've attempted to do that 7 as -- within my control. 8 Go ahead, please. 9 Q. Okay. And I believe you said that in the 10 1972 time frame, that you thought Ethyl was coming 11 along well concerning addressing the asbestos 12 issues. Do you recall that? 13 A. Well, they were coming along. I -- I 14 don't really know -- they were improving. See, I 15 what we teach on improvement is not competing one 16 organization against another. We look at 17 self-improvement. Am I better today than I was 18 yesterday? You -- you said that was your 19 experience. You implied that you were doing things 20 better today than you did 20 years ago. 21 Q. Sure. We all are, aren't we? 22 A. Yeah. And that with -- in that context 23 they were coming along well. At least they weren't 24 getting worse, see. They were improving from how 25 things had been before --
Page 317 file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (117 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. -- how they had been described to me
3 before by people that I worked with. 4 Q. The --
5 A. I'm on page 59.
6 Q. Okay. And I was looking down. I guess
7
it's line 12.
"All right. Now, I might say that on
8 the asbestos, for the rules and regulations at that
9 point in time, we didn't find any negative thing."
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. Is that correct?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. That was your feeling, was it not?
14 A. Yeah. Yeah.
15 Q. Okay. 16 A. And looking at these exposures and -- and 17 the number of fibers and so on and so forth, that --
18 that was my recall. Okay?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. And I believe if you turn to page 62 --
22 A. 62 (complying). Got it.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. There is an error on that page on line --
25 line 9, where it says -- "Baton Rouge -- I believe
Page 318 1 this was done in the wintertime" -- I looked at file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (118 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 2 those slides, and it was really done in August. So, 3 it was the summertime -4 Q. Okay. 5 A. -- that it was done. 6 Q. But at any rate -7 A. That would be the time of very high 8 humidity in Baton Rouge. 9 Q. Okay. And you felt that in the -- your
10 testimony here is in the operation about -- in 11 the -- of the cells, "that there was little or no 12 exposure to asbestos"; is that correct? There at 13 line 3. 14 A. Line 3? 15 Q. On page 62. 16 A. Okay. Line -- I'll start at line 2. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. "My recall is that there was little or no 19 exposure to asbestos." Yeah. 20 Q. At that point in time, there was no 21 justification for them to wear a respirator; is 22 that -23 A. Yes. 24 Q. -- correct? 25 A. Yeah.
Page 319
1 Q. All right. 2 A. That didn't mean that -- see, by
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (119 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 3 justification, that didn't mean that's my 4 recommendation. Okay. My recommendation is always 5 to protect the worker. The first line of defense 6 should ventilation fail, should the control 7 conditions change, one corrects; but there's no 8 justification in light of the law, in light of the 9 legal system that -- I was -- part of my job is --
10 certainly was to protect Ethyl legally, okay -11 Q. Right. 12 A. -- so that they wouldn't get into lawsuit; 13 as -- as happened here. Okay. 14 Q. Well -15 A. To try -- so - - so, you're being here is 16 con- -- perhaps part of my failure, you see; but -17 MR. RICE: Well, I object to the 18 responsiveness. 19 BY MR. RICE: 20 Q. Do you recall your -21 A. -- well, past failure. 22 BY MR. RICE: 23 Q. -- your -24 MR. RICE: Object to the 25 responsiveness.
Page 320
1 BY MR. RICE: 2 Q. Do you recall your two memos we just went 3 through, Exhibits 9 and 10, wherein you stated that 4 in those particular applications you did not feel it
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (120 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 5 necessary for respiratory protection. Do you recall 6 that? 7 A. Yeah. 8 Q. Okay. And I believe you -9 A. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. You stuck a
10 word in there that -- just let me look, Steve. 11 Q. Well, let's go back to Exhibit 10. 12 A. Well, okay. 13 Q. "Operator respiratory protection is not 14 necessary for asbestos exposures" -15 A. Okay. 16 Q. "-- encountered during this process." 17 A. Yeah. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. It's not necessary within the law. You 20 know, remember how we were talking about regulations 21 and so on and so forth? 22 Q. Well, Mr. Taylor, if you had felt that 23 as- -- that respiratory protection was necessary in 24 that operation to protect the workers, you would 25 have put that in your -- in your report, wouldn't
Page 321
1 you? 2 A. They were wearing respirators already. 3 Remember the -- remember the pictures that we had -4 Q. Yeah. 5 A. -- in -- in some -- some instances. When
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (121 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:51 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 6 they were doing serious exposure, they were wearing 7 respirators. 8 Q. Okay. Now -9 A. See, that was -- that was --
10 Q. -- in this -11 A. -- part of the system that they worked 12 for. They were probably required to do that by 13 the -- by their -- their management system. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. Didn't have anything to do with me. 16 Q. Well, you did say that it was not 17 necessary, though, did you not? 18 A. Okay. And so -- you know, I could say 19 within the OSHA Act. I'm sorry I didn't, but -20 Q. Well, if you -- if you had felt it was 21 necessary to protect the workers, you would have 22 recommended it, wouldn't you? 23 A. No. Informally -24 Q. You wouldn't? 25 A. No. The -- the system was such that you
Page 322
1 go informally to management and you say this. 2 When we found this noxious material in the 3 breathing air, I think you will recall that I went 4 verbally to people and told them first. Okay. Gave 5 them my results, called them on the phone, and -6 and let them know. That's my responsibility, is if 7 I see that there is an imminent hazard -- and -- and
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (122 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 8 I'm not perfect. I don't catch everything. Okay. 9 Q. Okay.
10 A. And -- but if I see and am knowledgeable 11 that somebody is in threat, is in jeopardy, then I 12 have a responsibility either to inform them right 13 away -- and you don't wait around for Henry's 14 report. Okay. Henry calls them on the phone 15 directly -- not that individual. In that instance I 16 would be talking with some- -- someone in the 17 management system or my boss, saying, "Well, this is 18 what we found." 19 And then, I'd be directed to make a 20 report. That report would be -- perhaps be edited 21 in certain instances in my response so that -- that 22 happened. And the words were softened or changed so 23 that politically I wouldn't wreck what we had in 24 their medical system, see, because I reported to 25 one -- or our system reported to one
Page 323
1 vice-president. He sat with a group of 2 vice-presidents. And he was certainly not -- he was 3 vice-president of research and development. He 4 wasn't the powerhouse. The powerhouse was Wallace 5 Armstrong, I believe, who -- who was in charge of 6 the manufacturing. He brought in the dollars. And 7 so, he would influence decisions more than certainly 8 my boss would.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (123 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 9 MR. RICE:
I object to the res- --
10 A. My systems boss would. 11 MR. RICE: Object to the
12 responsiveness of the answer.
13 A. Sure. 14 BY MR. RICE: 15 Q. At any rate, in Exhibit 10, for whatever 16 reason you want to ascribe, you didn't -- you said
17 that operator --
18 A. Wait a minute. 19 Q. -- respiratory protection was not 20 necessary?
21 A. Is that Exhibit 10? I'm sorry. I didn't
22 know what Exhibit 10 was.
23 Okay. Now, please, Steve, go ahead.
24 Q. All right. For whatever reason you want
25 to ascribe to it, you said that operator respiratory
Page 324
1 protection was not necessary in that process? 2 A. Yeah. 3 Q. All right. And I think that one of the 4 things you were talking about also on page 62 was 5 the humidity, playing some role in exposures or -6 A. Yeah. 7 Q. -- lessening exposures; is that -8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. -- right? 10 A. Yeah. It's -- it's in there somewhere.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (124 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 11 Where's the line that's -- that's -12 Q. You attempted -13 A. Let's go to the exact verbiage. Okay? If 14 you can find it, help me. 15 Q. Well, Line 7, "And the reason for it 16 probably is -- it's so humid." 17 A. Yeah. 18 Q. All right. 19 A. Okay. See, these bags laid in the storage 20 shed, bags coming in -- also I have a blunder 21 somewhere that on page 60, line No. 20, it says 22 that, "The worker, without a respirator, is dumping 23 this long-fibered asbestos from South America." 24 That's South Africa. Okay. That should 25 be South Africa.
Page 325
1 Q. Okay. 2 A. So, I apologize for that; but maybe 3 they're both "A" words. Who knows why I did that. 4 But anyhow, now, let's go back to where -5 where we were. 6 Q. You -- in addition to the work that you 7 did -8 A. Oh, let -- let me -- on the humidity 9 business -10 Q. Uh-huh. 11 A. When -- they would purchase this material
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (125 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 12 from South Africa, perhaps commodity kind of in- - 13 stuff from -- chrysotile fibers from Canada; and it 14 would go into a storage shed. And it would 15 acclimate to the Baton Rouge weather. 16 And when they would dump -- I don't know 17 if you can see that here. When they -- in the 18 slide. We could look at it. But when they would 19 dump that asbestos fibers, under those 20 circumstances, it would come out in clumps. Okay. 21 And it -- you might be able to see it there. 22 And I was in error, like I said, that that 23 was done in August; and that would be a very high 24 humid area - 25 Q. Is that --
Page 326
1 A. -- at the time in Baton Rouge. 2 Q. Is that -3 A. Later on, in the cold weather, they 4 allowed me to monitor in -5 Q. Who didn't allow you -6 A. -- what would really be -7 Q. -- to monitor? 8 A. -- their worst case situation. 9 Q. Wait a minute. Who didn't allow you 10 monitor? 11 A. The system. 12 Q. No. Who? 13 A. The -- the system.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (126 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
14 Q. No. I want to know who.
15 A. No, the system.
16 Q. I want you to tell me --
17 A. If you -18 Q. -- the name of a person that didn't let
19 you monitor. 20 A. If you're kept busy, if you're kept busy 21 you have requests from 50 some plants -- okay --
22 then your boss sets your priorities, and you never
23
get back to some things.
I don't know, maybe that
24 doesn't happen to you; but, boys, it -- it sure
25 happened to me.
Page 327
1 Q. Well, let me point - 2 A. And so, I was never allowed -- say that 3 the system, the way things worked, the way 4 industrial hygiene was set up in Ethyl Corporation, 5 I could never get back -- and that was never as high 6 a priority as people having bleeding ears up in some 7 plant in -- in Pennsylvania or people going to close 8 down a paper mill in Rumford, Maine - 9 MR. RICE: Okay. I object -
10 A. -- or -
11
MR. RICE:
-- to the responsiveness.
12 BY MR. RICE:
13 Q. Now, in fact, on page 62 you said that the
14 sampling you did, you did it in a worst case
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (127 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 15 scenario -16 A. Well -17 Q. -- is that not correct? 18 A. -- and I was -19 Q. Am I correct? 20 A. I was wrong. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. Okay. That's just what I said, that the 23 sampling -- I looked at the slide. And if one looks 24 at the slide, you can see that the sampling was -25 it was developed in August. Okay. And so --
Page 328
1 Q. Did you testify previously that you did 2 these sampling monitorings in the worst case 3 scenario?
4
A.
I did, and I was wrong.
Okay.
I attempt
5 to do things in the worst case. If the system does
6 not allow me to do it, then that's -- we do the best
7 we can. Okay. 8 Q. The -- I believe that you also did some
9 work, you told us in -- you went to -- to Greece? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And -- and there were some conditions that 12 need addressing -- needed addressing at that plant, 13 were there not? 14 A. Yes. The -- my understanding is that the 15 workers there at -- a significant number of the 16 workers had higher or had elevated blood leads.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (128 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 17 Q. All right. And you wrote a -- a report 18 concerning that? 19 A. Yeah. 20 Q. I believe it's Tab 8. 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. All right. And if you would, turn to 23 page 3. 24 A. What, are you -- you're in the -- in the 25 big report itself -
Page 329
1 Q. Plant summary -2 A. -- or you're in that cover? 3 Q. I'm -4 A. What are you into -- page -5 Q. I am into -6 A. Summary? 7 Q. Yes, sir. 8 A. Okay. See, this -- this is the whole 9 report. This is the body of -- of information -10 Q. I'm in the summary. 11 A. -- that that's -- (indicating) -- okay. 12 Q. Page 3 of the summary. 13 A. All right. 14 Q. The -- the last paragraph. 15 A. Got it. 16 Q. Would you read the first two sentences 17 there?
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (129 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 18 A. Okay. Again, I'm reading this out of 19 context of the whole thing. And this was one of the 20 reports that was really doctored. I sent my 21 original report to the fellow that originally built 22 that Greek plant. A wonderful human being. He -23 he built the plant for Ethyl in Canada, and then he 24 served as a plant manager for some time. He went 25 over to Greece and he built this plant and he -- he
Page 330
1 was the -- like the chief engineer, right hand to 2 the people that ran Ethyl Corporation. Great human 3 being. His wife was a lovely person. 4 And I wrote a report over -- that was 5 recalled, and I sent the report to him. And Mitch 6 Zavon recalled the report and the report was heavily 7 edited, as was this document, before it went back 8 out. Okay. So, please recognize that this was 9 not -- might have gone out under my name, but what 10 we have here is the final document that went out. 11 Okay. And that's just the way things work in a big 12 company. Okay. 13 We -- and we had no power. We had -14 whew, you're -- you're pushing the chain up the 15 hill. And so, there are things that happened at -16 in the Greek situation that would be unnerving to 17 the manufacturing division that controlled that 18 facility. I think -- I don't know if they're in 19 manufacturing or in international.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (130 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 20 But anyhow, they were under the power of 21 somebody who was more powerful than the 22 vice-president that we reported to. And you -- the 23 people that I worked with did not want the facts 24 brought out so hard. And -- and so that this is a 25 watered-down version.
Page 331
1 They -- they called back. I had 2 distribution on the thing. It -- it -- I called up 3 the man that I really wanted to -- that I felt I 4 worked for when I was over there and asked him if he 5 had gotten the report. And he said that he hadn't. 6 And the next thing I knew, Mitch Zavon was in my 7 office saying that he had recalled all the copies of 8 the report. 9 And so, I believe the guy in Greece did 10 read the report or in -- that worked directly for 11 corporate -- top people in Ethyl Corporation. He 12 read it, and there were things that would cause 13 battles between vice-presidents. 14 And then Mitch or somebody edited the 15 report and it was put out. And of course, I had a 16 big objection to that. I didn't write about that, 17 either, Steve. Okay. But that's the way it 18 happened. 19 But I'll go ahead and read -- where did 20 you ask me to read?
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (131 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 21 MR. RICE:
I object to the
22 responsiveness.
23 BY MR. RICE:
24 Q. The report --
25 A. On page 3?
Page 332
1 Q. Yes. Would you read the first two 2 sentences, please. 3 A. First two sentences, "There is also 4 evidence that" -5 Q. I'm sorry. Maybe I'm on the wrong page 6 here. It starts on page 3 at the bottom, "The 7 system which motivated my presence..." 8 A. "The system which motivated my presence 9 within Greece is evidence that the biological 10 monitoring program is effective." 11 "The system which motivated my presence 12 within Greece is evidence that the biological 13 monitoring system program was (sic) effective." 14 Right. 15 Q. And the second sentence. 16 A. They had found -17 Q. Would you read -18 A. -- high blood leads. So, that was a good 19 system. 20 Okay. "Employee health has been protected 21 through this program of surveillance." 22 That could very well be -- see, one of the
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (132 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 23 things it doesn't say, it doesn't say whether it's 24 employee health in Greece or whether that system of 25 auditing -- biological auditing, which is being
Page 333
1 endorsed. 2 "However, to achieve conformance with 3 regulatory standards, there is first need to define 4 the maximum time that management wants employees to 5 wear respiratory mask protection." 6 One of the things I ran into in Greece, 7 these are people who were trying to do the best they 8 could. I don't believe that they were allowed the 9 financial resources to do the engineering principles 10 when equipment failed. 11 And so, as equipment failed, they put 12 people in respirators. So, in some instances they 13 had people in respirators for the whole shift. 14 Okay. And it was just unbelievable. And at that 15 point in time, respirators were a lot more 16 uncomfortable then than they are now. 17 MR. RICE: Object to the 18 responsiveness. 19 A. Sure. 20 BY MR. RICE: 21 Q. Mr. Taylor, did you conclude that employee 22 health in Greece has been protected through the 23 program of surveillance that was in place? Is that
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (133 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 24 your conclusion in your summary? 25 A. No. No, not from that. No. I tried to
Page 334
1 explain to you that -2 Q. Is that what you concluded in the 3 summary? Is that what you stated -4 A. It hadn't -5 Q. -- in the summary? 6 A. -- been protected. Don't -- don't -7 listen to me. 8 Q. No. I'm saying is this what -9 A. People summarize things outside of me. 10 People who were feeding me and feeding my children 11 and helping me with house payments. And this went 12 out over my violent objection personally. 13 Q. Are you saying that you didn't write this 14 A. I didn't write the intent of this, no, 15 sir. 16 Q. Well, I -- I didn't say that. 17 A. It was highly edited. 18 Q. Did -- did you write this? 19 A. What is "this" now? 20 Q. Those two sentences we just talked about. 21 Did you write them? 22 A. It doesn't -- it -- like I said, I don't 23 think so . See, there was a sentence that was just 24 shoved in there that -- look at it. It looks cagey 25 see.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (134 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
Page 335
1 "Employee health has been protected 2 through this program of surveillance." 3 Okay. That wouldn't be -- I would say it 4 in the Greek plant or I would say it in the Baton 5 Rouge plant or we would -- it would say where. This 6 is just put in -- that's Mitch writing, I suspect. 7 And it was put in there to soften the pressure of -8 of what was being said, see. And, boys, I don't -9 I wasn't comfortable with that at all. And -- and 10 of course, eventually I left Ethyl Corporation. 11 Q. Yes. 12 MR. RICE: Object to the 13 responsiveness of the answer. 14 A. Sure. 15 BY MR. RICE: 16 Q. The -- one of the issues that -- that we 17 discussed last time -- or you discussed in your 18 deposition was the -- the fact that Ethyl would go 19 to other plants and provide industrial hygiene and 20 safety information pertaining to tetraethyl lead. 21 Do you recall that? 22 A. Not pertaining to tetraethyl lead in 23 particularly. First of all, people were interested 24 in us from an industrial hygiene point of view, from 25 an OSHA point of view, really. That's -- that's
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (135 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
Page 336
1 what pressured the whole thing. Industrial hygiene 2 was part of it. And so, there is that aspect. 3 Safety, there would most often be a safety 4 personality, usually from the Baton Rouge plant, who 5 would accompany a team. 6 Also, most often there would be a 7 warehouse person. The facility that handled the 8 chemicals and the supplies and everything in Baton 9 Rouge had a pretty good reputation for moving -10 well, they had raw materials coming in; and they had 11 product going out and so on and so forth. Their 12 system for warehousing evidently was something that 13 could be marketed. 14 So, we would have a team like that. It 15 would be health and safety and then some warehousing 16 person who was very competent and knowledgeable 17 about first in, last out and whatever is appropriate 18 for that, yes. 19 And -- and -- but we wouldn't go -- what I 20 went for was to audit the industrial hygiene, the 21 chemical exposures, the noise exposures, the 22 ergonomics, the -- the different problems that they 23 might have, and alert them that the regulators were 24 coming in to -- would be coming in and with them 25 there would be financial penalty for some of the
Page 337 file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (136 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
1 things that were going on. And I would alert them 2 to -- to that. 3 Q. You mentioned -4 A. For the greater part, those reports were 5 audited, too, because the report was not sent 6 directly to the client. The report was sent to 7 marketing people. They were the people who hired 8 our division. They were over in another division at 9 Ethyl Corporation. 10 See, what happens when you get pushed down 11 to such a low level, that then you have to go 12 through this whole hodge-podge of people who do not 13 have the concept of what you're into editing out and 14 changing sentences and -- in a sense, like in this 15 thing we just read, they really changed the basic 16 intent -- intent. 17 And they're being politically astute, and 18 I appreciate that. One -- one has to be. But it's 19 very hurtful to industrial hygiene work where then 20 the person that you really want -- you want the 21 plant manager there to look at this and take some 22 sort of action. But when there's fudge words in 23 there, those rascals, especially in Ethyl 24 Corporation, where the intention was always the 25 bottom line, since -- in my time, they're not going
Page 338
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (137 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 1 to move or do anything unless somebody says, "By 2 God, do it" (indicating). And they didn't like me 3 saying, "By God, do it." And so, they would edit 4 this out. 5 Well, I said, "By God" -- I say, "By God, 6 do it," to our client. We just lost a client here a 7 few months ago. I -- I -- they had been with us for 8 five years or so. But the people's blood leads were 9 going up. And they wouldn't do what I said, and Pat
10 and I walked out of their office. They're -- I -11 it's just the way I am. 12 MR. RICE: Object to the 13 responsiveness of the answer. 14 BY MR. RICE: 15 Q. Do you remember what we were talking 16 about? We were talking about your going to other 17 plants to -- in the stewardship of Ethyl regarding 18 lead. 19 A. No. No. No. 20 Q. You don't remember -21 A. I went -- I went through the stewardship 22 of, if you will -- I'm not comfortable with that 23 church word. I don't know if I fully comprehend 24 what you mean by that. 25 Q. You don't know what --
Page 339
1 A. I've been on stewardship committees, and 2 it's a little bit different.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (138 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 3 Q. Okay. If you were -4 A. My purpose was to go help them start up an 5 industrial hygiene program. Okay. 6 Q. Well, it was pertaining to -7 A. To alert them and say, hey -- for example, 8 if OSHA came in, this is what we believe we would be 9 talking about, or that they would talk about.
10 Q. Well, it was pertaining particularly to 11 Ethyl's products that those people making -12 A. No, no. There was a whole facility. We 13 would talk in the -- of the laboratory. Many of 14 the -15 Q. Okay. 16 A. Many of the places we visited had 17 inadequate ventilation in their -- in their 18 laboratories. And the -- the air blowing out would 19 be too close to where the air was coming in. And 20 there would be chemical contamination in their own 21 facility, from their own materials. There were 22 people with heart problems who were climbing 23 structures, had no business being 5 feet off the 24 ground. 25 Q. So, you were there to assist these other
Page 340
1 companies? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Okay.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (139 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 4 A. Yeah. 5 Q. You commented that there was some union 6 resistance to you coming into some of these plants. 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. All right. 9 A. I believe it was the --
10 Q. Were you -11 A. -- Oil Atomic Worker -- what -- it's 12 written down. What page are you on? 13 Q. OCAW? Is that what you're -- the OCAW? 14 A. What does that mean? 15 Q. Oil Chemical and Atomic Workers. 16 A. Yeah. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. Yeah. That's what I was told. Okay. I 19 don't have first -- I didn't have a union fellow 20 from that organization come up and collar me; but I 21 was told that. 22 Q. That they were somehow resisting your 23 services being offered? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Okay.
Page 341
1 A. Yeah. And particularly in the Texas area, 2 I guess 3 Q. Now, you're -- as you've told us before, 4 you're not a physician, are you? 5 A. That's correct.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (140 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 6 Q. Okay. And -7 A. However, I may say that I had almost -8 almost two years in medical school. And I've cut 9 heart cadavers. I've had the physiology that any
10 physician my age would have and -- and so on and so 11 forth, courses. And I have been judged a competent 12 witness in -- on medical items that pertain to 13 physiology and anatomy and things like that because 14 I have taken inhaled lung and sectioned it and so on 15 and so forth. I -- I meant to bring in the kneecap 16 of the first cadaver I cut apart. 17 Q. Well, I've cleaned a lot of deer; but that 18 doesn't made me a doctor, does it? 19 A. No. Okay. Go ahead. No, I'm not a 20 physician. 21 Bill Rinehart was a physician once. 22 Q. Now, whether -- so, then whether or not 23 there was a risk from a particular health problem, 24 you left that to the physicians? 25 A. In industrial hygiene, the art and science
Page 342
1 of industrial hygiene is that one puts one foot on 2 the pier of engineering and one foot in the rocky 3 boat, beside the pier, of occupational medicine. 4 That's the profession. It's a bridge. It's a 5 bridge between the best science you can do and the 6 biological variation, so that the profession gets
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (141 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 7 into both engineering things and medical things. 8 I hope that answers you. 9 MR. LOKER: I object because that is
10 not responsive. 11 MR. BLANKS: Whatever. 12 MR. RICE: Likewise. 13 A. It's the only way I can respond to it. 14 I'm -- I'm sorry. I'm not a physician. 15 BY MR. RICE: 16 Q. Okay. We -- we can agree on that, can't 17 we? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. We can agree on a lot of things, Steve. 21 Q. The -- concerning -- if you'll recall, we 22 had discussed earlier your comment, I believe , in -23 as it regarded your article -- or your slide show on 24 vinyl chloride that -25 A. What -- what tab was that again?
Page 343
1 Q. Oh, it was No. 4 -- No. 6, I believe 2 A. Okay. Wait a second here. 3 Where does this -- Ethyl Hellas, are you 4 through with that thing? 5 Q. Yeah. 6 A. Okay. That was No. 8, was it? Now we'r 7 in No. 6? Okay. Go. 8 Q. The -- you'll recall that you wrote there
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (142 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 9 that when the area levels are below 1 part per
10 million, no protection is required? 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. And my comment was -- is -- as -- if you 14 go there, there's something about regulations, so on 15 and so forth. However, the regulated air 16 boundaries -- okay -- that is a legal constraint, 17 if you will. Okay. It's something better than they 18 had been doing in the past. In the past they had no 19 definition of these areas. Okay. They had no -- no 20 need to, no knowledge that they need to. 21 The Federal Government came in because of 22 work in the north and because of work in plants that 23 were less tight than this plant and imposed these 24 standards on this deep south facility that was a 25 Cadillac plant. Okay.
Page 344
1 Q. Now -2 A. But this is speaking to the regulation, 3 Steve. 4 Q. Yes. And in -- one of -- in the plant 5 breathing air that we were talking about, one of the 6 areas of interest was vinyl chloride, was it not? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Okay. And you did some -- an industrial 9 hygiene survey of the plant breathing air, did you
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (143 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 10 not? 11 A. Yeah, I -- I managed it, yes. 12 Q. Okay. 13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Steve, we're out 14 of mike. 15 A. Are -- are you through with this, No. 6, 16 Steve? 17 BY MR. RICE: 18 Q. Yeah. I think so. 19 A. Thanks. 20 (DEPOSITION EXHIBIT TAYLOR NO. 11 WAS 21 MARKED) 22 BY MR. RICE: 23 Q. I want to show you Exhibit 11. 24 A. That says "enclosure." 25 Exhibit 11. Yeah. Okay.
Page 345
1 Q. And this is "Breathing Air System 2 Analysis" of the Baton Rouge plant? 3 A. No. Wait. Just hold it now. It says, 4 "Breathing air compressor intake at the TEL area, 5 breathing air outlet" - 6 Q. I'm looking at this title. 7 A. Yeah. You always can't tell a book by its 8 cover, Steve. 9 Q. What does the title say? 10 A. "Breathing Air System Analysis." Now - 11 and it says "ComprehensiveIndustrial Hygiene
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (144 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 12 Survey. " 13 Who is the author of this? 14 Q. Is this your handwriting, or do you know? 15 A. No, God. No, sir. This is too good to be 16 my handwriting. I never wrote that good. It is not 17 mine at all. 18 So, let's go through and see what it 19 really is. Okay? 20 In addition, I don't see -- I see dates, 21 like 10 -30; but I don't see a year on the thing. 22 Q. I believe it was 1974. 23 A. Well, okay. It's -- you claim it's 1974. 24 I -- I' m still digging. 25 Q. Isn't that when you were doing the plant
Page 346
1 breathing air system analysis? 2 A. I would have to look at the date. When is 3 that that I -- I reported finding chemicals in the 4 air? 5 Q. Well, if you'll look - 6 A. What tab numberwas -- was that? 7 Q. All right. Look at Tab 7. 8 A. 7. God, you're good at this. Okay. 9 And that's entitled, "Comprehensive 10 Industrial Hygiene Survey Activity Summary," a 11 report to Ted Robinson, then medical director, from 12 me, December, '74.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (145 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 13 Okay. So, you're claiming that -- this 14 doesn't say it's '74. But you':re claiming this 15 was - - this could have happened after I left, okay, 16 from -- from this document. We just don't know. 17 See, this could have happened. That comprehensive 18 industrial hygiene survey went on after I was gone. 19 Okay. 20 Q. Would you look at it, please? 21 A. Sure. I'm looking at it. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. Okay. Okay. 24 (Reviewing document) What I'm looking 25 for, Steve, is we had found in '74 that vinyl, ethyl
Page 347
1 chloride, methyl chloride,ethylene dichloride, and 2 1-1 dichloroethane passed -- passed completely 3 through the combined utility breathing air system; 4 but -- and also some lead goes through it, at that 5 time in '74. Okay. 6 Q. And you did some - 7 A. And so, now I'm looking for those same
8
chemicals here. Okay. I do see -- okay.
This is
9 ethyl chloride. That's not it. This is methyl
10 chloride. Okay. 11 Now, methyl chloride did go through -- at
12 this report was still going through the system. 13 There's still methyl chloride floating around the
14 place. Okay. That's what we reported.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (146 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 15 Vinyl chloride is still in the system, and 16 it's still being in -- evidently in the breathing 17 air at the compressor -- no, it's at the compressor 18 intake. Okay. 19 Now, if you look at methyl chloride, my 20 God, they don't have to go in the chemical 21 business. They're making it. You see how the 22 number is bigger at the breathing air compressor 23 intake than it was at the breathing air outlet. In 24 fact, it's three times higher. So, they're 25 manufacturing methyl chloride. Boys, that's -- they
Page 348
1 ought to go in business if you can manufacture 2 methyl chloride without putting into the raw -- you 3 know, just from the air, my God, the profits you'd 4 make, see. 5 Q. Uh-huh. 6 A. They made three times as much -- what this 7 says, that theymade three times as much methyl 8 chloride coming out of the place as -- as went in. 9 Q. Let' s look at -10 MR. RICE: I object to the 11 responsiveness. 12 BY MR. RICE: 13 Q. Let' s look at the -- the levels 14 A. I'm sorry. Look at what? 15 Q. The levels. The concentration.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (147 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 16 A. The letters? 17 Q. The concentration. 18 A. Yeah, but -- but see -19 Q. I'm just asking you -20 A. I -- I don't mean to be playing games with 21 you, Steve; but the reliability of the analysis is 22 such that it couldn't differentiate. See, this is 23 part of the dose concept of things. They couldn't 24 differentiate at these numbers what's involved. 25 Steve, do you need some help?
Page 349
1 THE WITNESS: I -- I want to call 2 attention that Steve has his head on the table. 3 And he's -- he's -- he's patient. He's Job. 4 Okay. 5 A. But I've -- I've got to -- you want me to 6 stick to fact, don't you, Steve? 7 BY MR. RICE: 8 Q. I want you to look at -9 A. From your heart, you want me to stick to 10 fact. All right. 11 Q. I want you to look at the concentrations. 12 Okay? 13 A. Well, they're growing chemicals. They're 14 growing chemicals. My God, look, they grew 15 propane. They grew methyl chloride. They grew 16 vinyl chloride. 17 MS. COLLINS: I object. I want to
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (148 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 18 note my objection. I -- just for the record 19 I -- I think everyone is feeling this. We 20 appreciate your -- if you want to read it to 21 yourself, that;'s fine; but there's no question 22 pending. And I object to this continued waste 23 of everyone's time. 24 THE WITNESS: Okay. 25 MS. COLLINS: And I would just ask
Page 350
1 that this be conducted as a deposition. 2 THE WITNESS: If -3 MS. COLLINS: We appreciate your 4 knowledge, Mr . Taylor; but if we could go back 5 to a question and answer format. 6 THE WITNESS: If your time is being 7 wasted, then, gosh, you can walk out -8 BY MR. RICE: 9 Q. Mr. Taylor -10 THE WITNESS: -- if your time is 11 being wasted. 12 MS. COLLINS: I note my objections. 13 MR. RICE: I object to the 14 responsiveness, also. 15 BY MR. RICE: 16 Q. I just want you to look for a moment at 17 the concentrations found during this survey. 18 A. I have to look at --
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (149 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 19 Q. Let me just ask you to - 20 A. I've got to look at it, Steve. Just hold 21 it now. 22 Q. All right. 23 A. What is AC -- air compressor? Okay. Air 24 compressor house -- air compressor house outlet. I 25 don't know just what that is. But then they have
Page 351
1 air compressor, and I don't know whether that means 2 it's coming in or going out of the air compressor. 3 Now, here's one that says air compressor 4 intake. And again, I'm looking at the 5 concentrations. These are in parts per million. 6 Environmental air sample, post 7 approximate 10 yards southwest of intake. 8 See, in -- in order for these to be 9 intelligible, Steve, one has to have a plant layout 10 and put down what these air compressor intake - 11 you've got to put down, you know, the location of 12 these things -13 Q. Can I just ask you a question? 14 A. -- and then see if it's -- just please 15 wait. I' ve -- I've got - - you gave me this thing 16 and don't bully me now. 17 Q. Let me just -- let me tell you the 18 question I'm going to ask you, and you can -19 A. I'm looking for it. 20 Q. My question is: Are any of the
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (150 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 21 concentrations that were found in this survey above 22 any TLVs? 23 A. Whew, I don't know offhand the TLVs of all 24 of these materials. 25 Q. Well, we know the TLV for -
Page 352
1 A. Steve, I wish there were a blackboard 2 here. Can we get a blackboard? 3 Q. Let me ask you this: Was the TLV for 4 vinyl chloride at that time was 1; do you recall 5 that, 1 part per million? 6 A. I -- I don't know if it was or not -7 Q. Okay. 8 A. -- because the 1 part per million was the 9 area guideline from OSHA. That didn't mean that 10 that was the TLV. Okay. I -- I -- I don't know. I 11 don' t recall. Things have tightened up through 12 time 13 Now, here is benzene. 14 MR. LOKER: Objection. I object 15 to -16 THE WITNESS: Oh, he -- he -17 MR. LOKER: -- to the rambling nature 18 of this answer. 19 THE WITNESS: He asked me -- well, 20 I'm sorry. I'm going through the pages that 21 was handed, one by one.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (151 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 22 A. And the next to the last page has 23 benzene. And it says it's less than 13.8. So, you 24 asked me if anything was above 1 part per million. 25 Well, 13.8 is certainly above 1 part per million.
Page 353
1 MR. LOKER: I withdraw that 2 objection. 3 BY MR. RICE: 4 Q. That was, of course, the accuracy of the 5 method is what is -- you -- you didn't read that 6 part of it? 7 A. It doesn't say that. 8 Q. I beg your pardon? 9 A. It doesn't say that. All it says is that 10 benzene was less than 13.8 parts per million. 11 Q. What does it say below that? 12 A. Air intake hydrocarbon area. 13 Q. I thought you were on the next to the last 14 page? 15 A. I am. 16 Q. "13.8 ppm, accuracy of method." 17 A. Oh, "accuracy of method." Okay. Yeah, 18 I -- my trifocals. Okay. 19 So, now your question was? 20 You still don't know, Steve. If that's 21 the accuracy of the method -- my gosh, if the 22 accuracy of the method to locate me in this hotel 23 could be gross enough that say, okay, you're in
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (152 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 24 Virginia, that doesn't necessar- -- that doesn't 25 tell me anything about where I am in Richmond and so
Page 354
1 on and so forth. 2 So, what they're saying, okay, our method 3 is accurate enough that we've got you in Virginia. 4 But dogged if we know whether you're in -- see, it 5 could be if the accuracy of the method was 13 point 6 whatever it was, it could be that the exposure was 7 12. Okay. 8 Q. Or it could be zero? 9 A. Could be. Right. 10 Q. Right. 11 A. Right. 12 Q. We can agree on that, can't we? 13 A. Beg your pardon? 14 Q. We can agree on that? 15 A. Yeah. 16 Q. Okay. I -- I know it's tough, but maybe 17 you can give me a little bit. 18 A. I don't want to give you anything, Steve. 19 You have to earn it. 20 Q. I agree. And -21 A. Now -- Steve, the last time we were 22 together -- is the gentleman here who -23 MR. PLEDGER: I object. Can - 24 A. There was a --
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (153 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 25 MR. PLEDGER:
-- we move on to --
Page 355
1 A. Yes, there was applause -2 MR. PLEDGER: -- to some -3 A. It is -4 MR. PLEDGER: -- admissible evidence, 5 questions that direct to the issues in this 6 litigation? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 A. And there was some applause the last time 9 that I was here as I completed talking. And 10 somebody jumped up and said that was not from this 11 group. I don't -12 THE WITNESS: Were you here the last 13 time? 14 MR. LOKER: I object to the -15 MR. PLEDGER: I am asking that we 16 move this deposition along. We have a bunch of 17 lawyers and a bunch of other people in this 18 room that are wasting an enormous amount of 19 time. 20 THE WITNESS: The door. 21 MR. PLEDGER: And I would like to 22 hear some answers to some questions. I don't 23 think I've heard an answer yet to a question 24 that's been propounded. 25 MR. HOBSON: I don't think you've
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (154 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
Page 356
1 objected yet. 2 THE WITNESS: There's -- there's the 3 door. 4 So that the -- I -- I want to go on 5 record that the laughing that was heard was not 6 from the neighboring room -7 THE REPORTER: Wait a minute. Wait a 8 minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. 9 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 10 THE REPORTER: Wait a minute. 11 Sorry. Sorry. Wait a minute. 12 MR. BLANKS: This is just a little 13 colloquy down here. 14 THE REPORTER: But was it not 15 important? 16 MR. PLEDGER: It's important. I'm 17 Richard Pledger of Sands, Anderson, Marks & 18 Miller, counsel for Worthington Pump in this 19 case. And I would like to hear some deposition 20 testimony in this case. 21 We're just meandering through paper 22 that has nothing to do with anything and a 23 bunch of speculation that hasn't addressed any 24 answers or any questions. And we're wasting a 25 ton of time.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (155 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
Page 357
1 I feel sorry for any Judge who has to 2 go through this deposition transcript to figure 3 out what's admissible and what's not. 4 BY MR. RICE: 5 Q. Mr. Taylor? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Do you -- look at your Tab No. 7. 8 A. Wait. Is that where we are with this 9 thing reported to -10 Q. December 11th, '74. 11 A. -- Ted Robinson? 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. Yeah. Got it. 14 Q. All right. Did you write this? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Okay. And -17 A. And I don't -- this was edited, but I 18 think it was edited -- my intent was expressed. 19 Q. All right. 20 A. This -- there was a lot of work went into 21 this by -- in writing this, yeah. 22 Q. Okay. And on page 2 -- the bottom -- last 23 sentence of the paragraph on page 2. 24 A. "Presently"? 25 Q. No. "Baton Rouge plant management, tech
Page 358 file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (156 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 1 service personnel, and most everyone at the 2 plant" -3 A. Wait a second. 4 Q. -- "have also been supportive to our 5 effort. " Is that correct? 6 A. Let me start again. Page 2. Okay. The 7 second to last paragraph. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. Okay. "Baton Rouge plant management, tech
10 service personnel, and most everyone at the plant 11 has also been supportive to our effort." Yes. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. They kept paying us. 14 Q. Beg your pardon? 15 A. They kept paying us. 16 Q. All right. You wrote that? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. It was true? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. In that context. That isn't in -- in all 22 industrial hygiene efforts. 23 Q. When you -24 A. But for this -25 Q. -- were at the Tennessee Valley
Page 359
1 Authority --
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (157 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 2 A. Yes. Are you through with that now? 3 Q. Yes. 4 A. Okay. 5 Q. When you were at Tennessee -6 A. Are you through with this Exhibit 11? 7 Q. Right. 8 A. Okay. Okay. TVA. 9 Q. You were not promoted as you felt that
10 should have been; is that correct? 11 A. No. No, I got -- I got pay raises that 12 were unbelievable. I'd come out of graduate 13 school -14 Q. Did you get a -- why did you leave the 15 TVA? 16 A. Ethyl Corporation came -- called me on 17 phone and said, "Come work with us." And I went and 18 interviewed. Bill Rinehart called me. And I went 19 and interviewed -- my wife and I went and 20 interviewed, took a trailer and the two girls who 21 were still -- or three -- three kids and the dog and 22 drove a trailer to a park in Southern Tennessee and 23 drove from the park in -- in Southern Tennessee and 24 drove down to Louisiana and met with Dr. George 25 Roush. And that's --
Page 360
1 Q. Did someone else get a - 2 A. His talk -3 Q. Did someone else get a position at TVA
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (158 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 4 that you wanted -- a Mr. Raney? 5 A. Raney? No, I wouldn't -- oh, no way . I 6 had a great job at -7 Q. You never -8 A. -- TVA. 9 Q. -- told anybody at Ethyl the reason you
10 left the TVA was because some man named Raney got a 11 job you wanted? 12 A. No. No, sir. Now, an engineer came in 13 and worked for the -14 Q. Did you have problems -15 A. I don't know what job -- just -- I don't 16 know what job he had. 17 Q. Did you have any problems with management 18 at the TVA? 19 A. Well, I'm -- I'm trying to think of 20 anything . I worked there for a fellow by the name 21 of Dave Trayer. And Dave Trayer wrote down in a 22 recommendation to a potential client of ours, 23 Dr. William Bosher here, superintendent of schools 24 here, August 16th, 1982, said, "Based on the work he 25 did while under my supervision, our work
Page 361
1 together" -- see, that -- that's the fellow I worked 2 for -- "our work together and other professional 3 activities and his professional certification as 4 American Board -- by the American Board of
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (159 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 5 Industrial Hygiene, I consider Henry Taylor to be a
6 highly qualified and competent industrial
7 hygienist." Okay. 8 Q. Did you have --
9 A. Just -10 Q. -- any trouble with any other
11 management --
12 A. Hold on just a minute. 13 The man that I ultimately worked for was
14 Jim Oppold (pronouncing). The fellow that called my
15 attention to TVA -- I was still in graduate school, 16 I can't recall his name; but we were in graduate 17 school together -- and he was from Tennessee Valley
18 Authority. He passed on my name as a candidate to
19 work for TVA to Jim Oppold. Jim Oppold was the
20 director. He was a Ph.D. out of Iowa. And he 21 was -- I don't know if he was into radiation or
22 not. 23
But the fellow that I -- that had gotten
24 me interfaced for this job, I had -- my first wife 25 and I had met his first -- his first wife in North
Page 362
1 Carolina. And sometime in my tenure at TVA, this 2 man, who had done me a favor, started playing around 3 with an office -- a secretary, and they were going 4 into a -- a motel and so on and so forth. 5 Jim Oppold took that secretary and fired 6 her, and I objected violently to that because she
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (160 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 7 was sitting at her desk and this fellow almost 8 forced his attention on her. And I did have 9 disagreement. You'd better believe it.
10 Q. Okay. 11 A. My -- this guy, Dave Trayer, went out of 12 the room and threw up. Okay. Dave is -- is a 13 Seventh Day Adventist and very much a passivist and 14 violent confrontations he had difficulty handling. 15 All of that -- you can just ask -- what I would 16 suggest is that you ask Dave Trayer. 17 MR. RICE: I object to the 18 responsiveness. 19 BY MR. RICE: 20 Q. You had some difficulty with some of the 21 management; would that be accurate? 22 MR. HOBSON: Objection, asked and 23 answered. 24 A. Yeah, I did. What slot did that Trayer 25 thing go into here?
Page 363
1 BY MR. RICE: 2 Q. Turn to Tab 12, please. 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q. Is that your resignation memo from Ethyl? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. Yeah. It's --
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (161 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 8 Q. Now, did you -9 A. -- to Gary Ter Haar. You see -- remember,
10 you were asking me if I worked for Burdick. Never 11 did work for Burdick. 12 Q. I didn't ask you -13 A. Indirectly, incidently kind of a thing. 14 Q. I didn't ask you that, first of all. 15 MR. BLANKS: Well, you should have 16 asked. 17 A. I thought in the first queries you did. 18 BY MR. RICE: 19 Q. The -- Mr. Ter Haar was the manager over 20 you at this time in -21 A. He was -22 Q. -- May of 1976? 23 A. He was the acting -- he was the functional 24 medical director for Ethyl Corporation at that time, 25 yes.
Page 364
1 Q. I believe that's not correct, but that was 2 your perception? 3 A. It sure was. 4 Q. Okay. The -- at any rate, he was the 5 manager over the area that you were in; right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And he had been hired in a position that 8 you felt that you should get; isn't that correct? 9 A. Holy smokes, no.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (162 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. No. 12 Q. At any rate, you com- -- you went in and 13 complained to Mr. Ter Haar that you didn't think he 14 was qualified, didn't you? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. And -- and that was about the 18 dose-response. We've talked a lot about 19 dose-response. And he, his training to my 20 knowledge, at that point in time, he had no insight 21 and was making some of the same blunders that you 22 made earlier about dose and misconcepts. Okay. And 23 that's a hard thing to deal with. 24 Gary was doing the best he could. He had 25 done favors for executive vice-presidents of Ethyl
Page 365
1 Corporation and gained this job. And over the 2 violent objection of Bill Rinehart -- Bill Rinehart 3 had retired -- over the objection of Mitch Zavon, 4 over the objection -- Ter Haar had been trying for 5 the job since Roush and -- so they said. And they 6 did the best they could to object. 7 So, I -- I would answer you that along 8 with others, I did not feel that Gary Ter Haar was 9 qualified to function as the medical director of 10 Ethyl Corporation; and I voiced that to him.
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (163 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 11 MR. RICE:
I object to the
12 responsiveness.
13 A. Sure. 14 BY MR. RICE:
15 Q. You personally went in and told him this, 16 didn't you? 17 A. I -- I don't have recall, but I -- I sure
18 could have. Sure.
19 Q. Okay. And -- and then in -- I guess after 20 he got into that position a few months, you
21 resigned; is that accurate? 22 A. I don't know how long Gary -- you'd --
23 you'd have to check with Gary. You know better than
24 I do. I -- I don't know how long Gary had been
25 there. I don't know if he had been there on a trial
Page 366
1 basis. 2 Some -- in a -- in a job like that, they 3 may take and put someone in it and see if they can 4 make it fly. And when he really received the job, I 5 don't -- maybe he had been put in full-fledge right 6 from the get-go. I -- I don't know. 7 Q. Is this -8 A. I didn't have privilege. 9 Q. Is this your resignation memo of May 3rd? 10 It has no -- nothing in here about plant air or 11 anything like that, does it? Is that even mentioned 12 in this memo?
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (164 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 13 A. I -- I'd have to read it. 14 "This is to inform you of my resignation 15 from Ethyl Corporation. 16 "I feel my Health/Safety analysis of 17 Bonnell" -- it's an aluminum plant -- "my analysis 18 of the status of Imco's noise" -- that's a plastics 19 plant -- "conservation program, my effort to 20 establish an environmental-health kit for 21 Bonnell" -- it worked very well, incidently -- "my 22 analysis for liability related to noise at Erie" -23 that was the bloody eardrums -- "my supervision and 24 the anticipated OSHA-Kentucky formal hearing about 25 the Louisville plant" -- that was -- that's where
Page 367
1 they had the headline over that plant of vinyl 2 chloride emissions and they had the skull on the 3 front page of the newspaper -- "my" -4 MR. RICE: Object to the 5 responsiveness. 6 A. -- "supervision of the 3-M VCm respirator 7 evaluations are" -- see, we were trying to upgrade 8 their system always -- "are sufficiently important 9 and are programs with which I am personally so 10 involved that if they are to be completed I must do 11 so. My involvement in teaching, chairing several 12 technical sessions and presenting an Ethyl/Imco 13 paper are Ethyl approved" -- that would be one about
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (165 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 14 noise, containment and removal of noise -- "and
15 nationally published in behalf of Ethyl at the
16 forthcoming American Industrial Hygiene Conference
17 and therefore, I would prefer to attend this
18 conference under the auspices of Ethyl Corporation
19 as scheduled."
20 Okay. Now, this is a letter of
21 resignation. It's not a -- when you -- when we
22
part, Steve, we'll have our disagreements.
But I'm
23 not going to call you an SOB orso on and so forth.
24
I love you. Okay? I really love you.
And I'm not
25 going to demean you on our parting. I'm going to
Page 368
1 wish you well for your journey. 2 So, here I had made the decision to go on 3 my journey from this organization. I had had my 4 shot at presenting information to those people as 5 best I could before this. Okay. And you don't -6 BY MR. RICE: 7 Q. Let me ask you something. 8 A. And you don't take and - - as a parting 9 shot go away and -- and be biting at people. Let's 10 go ahead. 11 Q. Well, do you think you're taking your -12 A. It is expected -13 Q. -- parting shot here? 14 A. -- let me do -15 Q. Can you answer that question?
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (166 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 16 A. No, sir, I can't until I read it. 17 "It is expected" -18 Q. Did you think there was a conspiracy 19 against you? 20 A. -- "expected these tasks will be completed 21 by the 11th or 18th of June which would then also be 22 my final working day with Ethyl. 23 "My involvement at the forthcoming 24 API" -- remember, I told you I had represented them 25 at the A -- API meeting -- organization -- American
Page 369
1 Petroleum Institute -- "meeting and the aluminum saw 2 noise session are at your discretion. It might be 3 important for me to introduce someone else from our 4 shop to the API group and for someone else to attend 5 the noise session with the Bonnell people. 6 "I also have several other requests for 7 service which should be discussed for which new 8 responsibilities might be arranged, however, these 9 can be spun off in a gradual fashion. 10 "My loyalty, 101 percent effort, and 11 60 hours a week" -- and that was a real 60 hours a 12 week. I keep charts, kept -- "have been Ethyl's 13 during the past four years. Our family has grown to 14 love many fine people here" -- remember, we started 15 a volunteer fire department there. I was an 16 honorary coon-ass. My wife was an honorary
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (167 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 17 coon-ass. Eat at the -- eat with the governor. 18 "Our family has grown to love many fine 19 people here, and we regret leaving. However, when 20 opportunity knocks, we can only respond." 21 Okay. I - 22 "Please let me have your confirmation of 23 the foregoing activity proposal at your earliest 24 convenience. Thanks much." 25 I think that most of that was implemented.
Page 370
1 Q. Was what you wrote here true? 2 A. To -- to the best of my knowledge, yeah. 3 Q. Okay. 4 MR. RICE: That's all I have. Thank 5 you very much. 6 THE WITNESS: Sure. 7 MR. HOBSON: Anyone else? Let's take 8 a short break. We've been going about an 9 hour. 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're off the 11 record at 1:33. 12 (A BRIEF RECESS WAS HAD) 13 MR. HOBSON: Yes. Mr. Taylor, there 14 are no more questions from any of the other 15 attorneys. And any questions I might have for 16 you, sir, I would rather wait and ask you at 17 trial. 18 And with that, we'd like to conclude
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (168 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 19 the deposition. Thank you very much for your 20 patience. 21 THE WITNESS: I would like to thank 22 you all for your patience. Have a safe 23 journey, so forth and so on, Steve. 24 MR. RICE: Yes, sir. 25 THE WITNESS: Love you.
Page 371
1 THE REPORTER: Off the record? 2 MR. BLANKS: Off the record. 3 4 (THE DEPOSITION WAS CONCLUDED) 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (169 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt 20 21 22 23 24 25
Page 372
1
THE STATE OF
:
2 COUNTY OF :
3
4 I, HENRY M. TAYLOR, hereby certify that I have
5 read the foregoing transcript of my testimony,
6 consisting of 371 pages, given in the foregoing
7
numberedandstyled
case, andthat same
is true and
8 correct to the best of my knowledge and belief.
9 I further certify that any and all corrections
10 have been made on a separate page and initialed by
11 me.
12 This day of , 1997.
13
14
15 _______________________________________
16 HENRY M. TAYLOR
17
18 SWORN TO AND SUBSCRIBED BEFORE ME this
19 day of ,
19 97.
20
21
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (170 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
22 23 24 25
NOTARY PUBLIC
Page 373
1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE TO THE DEPOSITION OF HENRY M. TAYLOR
2
3 I, B. IRENE MEGUESS, a Certified Shorthand Reporter for the State of Texas, hereby certify
4 pursuant to the Texas Rules of Civil Procedure and/or agreement of the parties present to the
5 following:
6 That this deposition transcript is a true record of the testimony given by HENRY M. TAYLOR,
7 the witness named herein, on May 9, 1997, after said witness was duly sworn by me.
8 SWORN TO AND SUBSCRIBED by me in Beaumont,
9 Texas, on this the _____ day of June, 1997.
10
11
12 B. IRENE MEGUESS, CSR, RPR Certification Number: 2429
13 Expiration Date: 12-31-98
14 Nell McCallum & Associates, Inc.
15 2615 Calder, Suite 111 Beaumont, Texas 77702
16 409/838-0333
17
18
19
20
21
22
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (171 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
23
24
25
Page 374
1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE TO THE DEPOSITION OF HENRY M. TAYLOR
2 I, B. IRENE MEGUESS, a Certified Shorthand
3 Reporter for the State of Texas, hereby certify pursuant to the Texas Rules of Civil Procedure
4 and/or agreement of the parties present to the following:
5 That this deposition transcript is a true
6 record of the testimony given by HENRY M. TAYLOR, the witness named herein, on May 9, 1997, after said
7 witness was duly sworn by me;
8 That $ is the charge for the preparation of the completed deposition transcript
9 and any copies of exhibits, charged to Herschel L. Hobson, T.B.A. No. 09744600;
10 That notification of the submission of the
11 deposition transcript was received by the witness, HENRY M. TAYLOR, on , 1997, that same was
12 to be examined and signed within 30 days of said date or prior to the time of trial. The attached
13 Change/Correction Sheet contains any changes made by the witness and the reasons therefor;
14 That the original deposition transcript,
15 together with copies of exhibits, was delivered on , 1997, to the attorney or party who
16 asked the first question appearing in the transcript;
17 That a copy of this certificate was served
18 on all parties by serving same through their attorneys of record, pursuant to Rule 21a. The
19 names of said attorneys have been provided by Counsel for Plaintiffs and are on file at the office
20 of the court reporter.
21 SWORN TO AND SUBSCRIBED by me in Beaumont, Texas, on this the _________ day of , 1997.
22
23 B. IRENE MEGUESS, CSR, RPR Certification Number: 2429
24 Expiration Date: 12-31-98
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (172 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt
Nell McCallum & Associates, Inc., 2615 Calder, 25 Suite 111, Beaumont, Texas 77702, 409/838-0333
Page 375
1 THE STATE OF TEXAS :
2 COUNTY OF JEFFERSON :
3 I, B. IRENE MEGUESS, a Certified Shorthand
4 Reporter, hereby certify that the foregoing testimony was given before me after the Witness had
5 been first duly sworn.
6 I further certify that this deposition was prepared under my direction and is a complete and
7 correct transcript of the proceedings and that the original is being given to Herschel L. Hobson.
8 I further certify that I am neither attorney
9 for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the lawsuit in which this deposition was taken.
10 Further, I am neither related to nor employed by any attorney of record in this cause; nor do I have a
11 financial interest in this matter.
12 GIVEN UNDER MY HAND AND SEAL OF OFFICE in Beaumont, Texas, on this _____ day of June, 1997.
13
14
15 B. IRENE MEGUESS, CSR, RPR
16 Certification Number Date of Expiration
17 Business Address
18 (409) 838-0333
2429 December 31, 1998
Nell McCallum & Associates 2615 Calder, Suite 111 Beaumont, Texas 77702
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (173 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-050997VOL2.txt (174 of 174) [4/6/2002 12:46:52 PM]