Document 6bdO81X4Zb2DdaEzX13K0JrJR

11 2 IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS 3 FIRST JUDICIAL DISTRICT OF PENNSYLVANIA 4 CIVIL TRIAL DIVISION 5 6 In Re : 7 PAO LI RAILROAD YARD : JANUARY TERM, 1990 PCB LITIGATION : NO. 1046 8 9 November 16, 1990 10 11 Oral deposition of ROBERT G. KALEY, 1 2 II, Ph.D., held in the offices of KOHN SAVETT, 1 3 KLEIN & GRAF, P.C., 2400 One Reading Center, 1101 14 Market Street, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19107, 15 commencing at 10:00 a.m., on the above date, 16 before McKinley Wise, Registered Professional 17 Reporter and Federally Approved Reporter of the 18 United States District Court. 19 20 21 WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW 2 2 Computer Support 260 South Broad Street, Suite 200 2 3 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102 (215) 985-2333 24 25 WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048010 12 2 3 4 APPEARANCES : 5 KOHN SAVETT, KLEIN & GRAF, P.C. 6 BY: JOSEPH C. KOHN, ESQUIRE 2400 One Reading Center 7 1101 Market Street Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19107 8 and KLEHR, HARRISON, HARVEY, BRANZBURG & ELLERS 9 BY: ARNOLD E. COHEN, ESQUIRE 1401 Walnut Street 10 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102 Counsel for Plaintiffs 11 WHITE AND WILLIAMS 12 BY: JEANNE M. PROKO, ESQUIRE MICHAEL H. MALIN, ESQUIRE 13 One Liberty Place Suite 1800, 1650 Market Street 14 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103-7301 Counsel for Monsanto Company and Dr. Robert 1 5 G. Kaley, II, Ph.D. 16 BLANK, ROME, COMISKY & MCCAULEY BY: ROGER F. COX, ESQUIRE 17 Four Penn Center Plaza . Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 18 Counsel for SEPTA .and The Penn Central 19 WILLIAMS & CONNOLLY 2 0 BY: SARAH HELENE DUGGIN, ESQUIRE Hill Building 2 1 839 Seventeenth Street, N.W. Washington, D. C. 20006 2 2 Counsel for General Electric Company 2 3 LEIBERT, SHORT & HIRSHLAND BY: STEPHEN M. McMANUS, ESQUIRE 2 4 1200 One Franklin Plaza Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 25 Counsel for General Electric Company WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048011 1 2 APPEARANCES : (Continued) 3 MARGOLIS EDELSTEIN SCHERLIS SAROWITZ & KRAEMER 4 BY: MARK D. DOUPLE, ESQUIRE The Curtis Center, Fourth Floor 5 Independence Square West Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19106-3304 6 Counsel for Amtrak 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW 3 WATER PCB-00048012 1 2 I_ N D E X 3 WITNESS 4 5 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 6 7 By Mr. Cohen 8 9 10 11 12 EXHIBITS 13 14 NO . DESCRIPTION 15 1 6 Ka1ey-1 Curriculum Vitae 17 Ka1ey-2 Document 18 Ka1ey-3 Document . 19 Ka1ey- 4 Document 2 0 Kaley-5 Document 2 1 Ka1ey- 6 Document 22 23 24 25 4 PAGE NO. 11 PAGE NO 14------87 10 1 110 15 5 159 WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048013 15 2 3 (It is hereby stipulated and agreed 4 by and among counsel that the sealing, 5 filing, and certification are waived; and 6 that all objections, except as to the form 7 of the question, are reserved to the time of 8 trial.) 9 10 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D., after 11 having first been duly sworn, was examined 12 and testified as follows: 13 14 MR. MALIN: We want the witness to 15 sign the deposition. 16 We will obviously waive sealing and 17 18 All objections waived as to the form 19 of the question. 2 0 And any questions which may be 2 1 outside the scope of Discovery Order No. 1. 22 MR. COHEN: You want to put it on 2 3 the record now? Anything on the record? 2 4 MR. MALIN: Monsanto has designated 2 5 Dr. Kaley as a witness for deposition by WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048014 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 6 2 plaintiff on the subjects required by 3 paragraphs 2(d) and 2(e), of Discovery Order 4 No. 1, which reads as follows: 5 "2(d) Monsanto Company, by the 6 individual, with knowledge of the chemical 7 makeup of PCB based dielectric fluid, and 8 transformer fluid sold for use at Paoli Rail 9 Yard" and; 10 "2(e) Monsanto Company, by the 11 individual, with the knowledge of the 12 product purity of Monsanto's products that 1 3 contain PCBs." 14 We will object to any questions 1 5 propounded on subjects not covered by the 1 6 foregoing designations. 17 Monsanto states, as it has 18 previously at these proceedings that it did 19 not manufacture electrical equipment sold 2 0 for use at the Paoli Rail Yard or anywhere 2 1 else, and has no information that would 22 allow it to identify -with specificity the 2 3 dielectric fluid and transformer fluid sold 2 4 for use at Paoli Rail Yard by any other 2 5 company other than Monsanto, and we have WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048015 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 7 2 supplied, in connection with Federal 3 litigation and by reference in that 4 litigation, such records as we have in the 5 Federal litigation and by reference that 6 that litigation what PCBs were sold to other 7 companies for shipment to Paoli. 8 I would like to further state that 9 we are not quite certain as to the meaning 10 and intent of the word "purity," but we 11 assume it means with respect to possible 12 ingredients in these products containing 1 3 PCBs, other than PCBs, or it's consumers, 14 and in that respect, we have designated a 15 witness, the witness we have, who is most 16 knowledgeable with respect to other possible 17 ingredients in PCB-containing product. That 18 witness is here as. Dr. Robert Kaley. 19 MR. COHEN: So do I understand your 2 0 statement to mean, Mr. Malin, that that 2 1 witness is here today to offer testimony 2 2 without objection, ba^sed upon what your 2 3 understanding of Discovery Order Number 1 24 is? 2 5 MR. MALIN: I h_a ve just put it on WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048016 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 2 the record, yes. 3 MR. COHEN: Let me ask you this, 4 sir. 5 Is it also my understanding of your 6 recent statement that you intended to 7 include General Electric Company as one of 8 the other parties with respect to whom you 9 have produced documents evidencing sales of 1 0 Monsanto products to that company? 1 1 MR. MALIN: Whatever is shown by the 12 documents that we have produced in the 1 3 Federal litigation. If it shows sales to 14 General Electric, as I believe it does, the 15 shipments at Paoli, then, of course, it 16 would be in reference to that. I don't know 17 what that has to do necessarily with this . 18 witness, per se. 19 MR. COHEN: what it has to do with 2 0 this witness is this, sir. You are aware of 2 1 the testimony that has previously been given 2 2 that this litigation which shows that 2 3 General Electric Company sold a product 2 4 under their own trade name, which I believe 2 5 is called Pyranol, which, in fact, was a WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048017 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 9 2 mixture of other products including a 3 product manufactured by Monsanto Company 4 known as Aroclor. 5 And that General Electric Company 6 manufactured Pyranol or Pranol (sic), as it 7 was called, for sale and use in transformers 8 that either went directly to the Paoli Rail 9 Yard, directly to Penn Central Corporation 1 0 or some other operating entity that had 11 control over the Paoli Rail Yard at the 12 time, or to some other manufacturer of 1 3 assemblies of transformers that went onto 14 rail cars or other rail cars themselves. 1 5 MR. MALIN: I am not going to 16 quibble over what the prior testimony was, 1 7 but my recollection of it was General 1 8 Electric or Mr. Rouse indicated that 1 9 possibly that GE had bought PCBs from 2 0 Monsanto and either mixed them with other 2 1 chemicals or blended them themselves and, as 2 2 I recall, he wasn't quite sure, but I don't 2 3 want to be held to that at the moment. I 2 4 don't want to review that testimony here. 2 5 MS. DUGGIN: Let me say for the WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048018 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. ]0 2 record, on behalf of General Electric, that 3 I think the Rouse testimony stands for 4 itself. 5 I think we could spend a lot of time 6 debating the meaning of manufacture, and I 7 will not take the time to go into all that 8 here, but I do want to note General 9 Electric's objection to characterizations of 10 the testimony and its actions that may not 1 1 be accurate at this time. 12 MR. COHEN: What I was getting to, 13 Mr. Malin, was your statement that at the 1 4 outset that you were going to restrict this 15 witness' testimony. I'm trying to 16 understand the scope of the restriction, 1 7 considering as it would seem appropriate to 1 8 the testimony of other witnesses in this 1 9 litigation regarding their consumption of, 2 0 mixture of, and in subsequent resale of 2 1 Monsanto products. . 2 2 MR. MALIN: Well, I think we ought 2 3 to proceed with this witness' deposit i. on, 2 4 and if the question comes up, we deal with 2 5 it at that time. We will deal with it at WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048019 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D 2 that time. 11 3 4 EXAMINATION 5 6 BY MR. COHEN: 7 Q. Dr. Kaley, my name is Arnold Cohen, 8 and I represent, along with my co-counsel, Joseph 9 Kohn, who is seated here at the table today, the 10 plaintiffs in this -- a number of the plaintiffs 11 in this litigation that is proceeding regarding 12 the events that transpired at the Paoli Rail Yard. 1 3 I am going to be asking you some 14 questions here today, and I'm sure you're aware 15 you're required to answer those questions to the 16 best of your ability and as truthful as possible. 17 If, during the course of these 1 8 proceedings, I should ask you a question that you 19 do not hear, will you be kind enough to indicate 2 0 that, so that we will know that you did not hear 2 1 the question and I will be glad to restate it, as 2 2 necessary, until you do hear it? 2 3 A. Yes, I will. 2 4 Q. In the event that I should ask you a 2 5 question that you do not understand, would you WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048020 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 12 2 please be kind to enough indicate that you did not 3 understand the question, and I will be glad to 4 restate the question, if I can, so that you do 5 understand the question? 6 A. Yes, I will. 7 Q. You do understand, do you not, 8 Doctor, that in the event that you answer 9 questions, I certainly will assume that you both 10 heard and understood the question? 11 A . Yes. 12 Q. If during the course of these 1 3 proceedings I should misuse a technical term or 14 term of art that you are familiar with, would you 15 be kind enough to indicate that I have misused it, 1 6 or at least you believe that I misused it so that 17 we do not have a question on the record that is an 1 8 improper question with respect to your 1 9 understanding of the question? 2 0 A. I will try to do that. 2 1 Q. I'm sure you can appreciate the fact 2 2 I'm a layman; I believe, I.do not have an 2 3 understanding of the terms as you do, but I 2 4 believe that because you are a scientist we may 2 5 have different understanding of terms. WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048021 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 2 A. I understand. 13 3 Q. Or indeed I may have no 4 understanding of the terms as you understand. 5 You understand, sir, that all of 6 your responses must be made in a verbal fashion 7 because the court reporter, while I'm sure he's 8 quite skilled and capable, cannot be relied upon 9 to necessarily transcribe in words gestures, or 10 grunts or some other, indication other than a 11 verbal response. 12 A. I understand. 13 MR. MALIN: Mr. Cohen, in order to 14 perhaps help expedite these proceedings, I 15 have prepared a copy of Dr. Kaley's CV which 1 6 may help you in going through his background 17 and perhaps speed up these proceedings. 18 MR. COHEN:. Let the record reflect 19 that I have been shown a document that bears 2 0 the legend "Robert George Kaley, II," at the 2 1 top. This is the first time I have seen 22 this document . 2 3 In any event, it has been represented 2 4 to be the curriculum vitae of the witness, 2 5 and we can mark it at this time as Kaley WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048022 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Fh.D. 14 2 Exhibit 1 or such other designation. 3 4 (Curriculum Vitae marked as Exhibit 5 6 7 BY MR. COHEN: 8 Q. Can we have your full name, sir? 9 A. Robert George Kaley, II. 1 0 Q. I have a document that has been 11 marked as Kaley Exhibit 1. Is the address 12 reflected there as your home address your current 1 3 home addres s ? 14 A. Yes, itis. 15 Q. And is the address that isreflected 1 6 there as your work address your current work 17 address? 1 8 A. Yes, itis. 1 9 Q. Why don't you tell me so I don't 2 0 have to just read that and ask you all about it. 2 1 Why don't you just give me a summary of your 2 2 education, starting with your graduation from high 2 3 schoo1? 24 A. I graduated fromhighschool in 2 5 South Bend, Indiana, from John Adams High School WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUS1LOW WATER PCB-00048023 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 2 in 1964. 15 3 The following fall I entered Purdue 4 University, graduating in June of 1968 with a BS 5 in Chemistry. 6 Entered the University of Illinois, 7 receiving a Master's degree in Analytical 3 Chemistry in February of 1971. 9 And a Ph.D. in Analytical Chemistry 1 0 in January of 1974. 1 1 Q. Your employment record starts with 12 September of 1968. 1 3 Did you have any employment, 14 professional employment prior to that time? 1 5 A. I had summer jobs during my 16 undergraduate schooling, yes. 17 Q. Were any of those summer jobs with 1 8 the Monsanto Company? 19 A. No, they were not. 2 0 Q. Were they with any company 2 1 associated in any way, to your knowledge, with any 2 2 of the parties to this litigation? 2 3 A. I do not know. 2 4 MR. MALIN: Excuse me. You have to 2 5 tell him who the parties to the litigation WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048024 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 16 2 are. 3 MR. COHEN: All right. 4 BY MR. COHEN: 5 Q. Monsanto Company, General Electric 6 Company, Westinghouse Corporation, Budd Company, 7 and the railroads associated with the Penn Central 8 Corporation, which I believe was called Penn 9 Central Corporation in the period 1964 to '68? 10 A. Not to my knowledge, no. 11 Q. Amtrak. 1 2 MR. COX: It was called the 13 Pennsylvania Railroad and Penn Central 14 Transportation Company. 15 MR. MALIN: Yes; the merger wasn't 16 until '71. . 17 MR. COHEN: '71 was the merger? So 18 it was Pennsylvania Railroad. 1 9 MR. COX: The merger was prior to 2 0 '71. I thought your question meant prior to 2 1 '68. 2 2 MR . COHEN:: No, '64 t o ' 6 8 2 3 MR . COX : I believe i t was 2 4 Pennsylvania Railroad in '64. 2 5 BY MR. COHEN: WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048025 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 17 2 Q. All right, Pennsylvania Railroad, we 3 know that in 4 A . No . 5 Q Amtrak, Conrail did not exist. 6 MR. COX: To the best of my 7 knowledge. 8 MR. COHEN: SEPTA was PTC? 9 MR. COX: Perhaps. 1 0 BY MR. COHEN: 11 Q. According to this document you first 1 2 started employment with Monsanto Company in 1 3 December of 1973? 1 4 A. That's correct. 1 5 Q. What were your duties at that time? 1 6 A. I was an analytical chemist in a 17 larger group of analytical chemists providing . 18 services to the Monsanto Chemical Company, as it 19 was known at the time. 2 0 That's incorrect. It was Monsanto 2 1 Industrial Chemical Company at the time. 2 2 Q. What was your, work as an analytical 2 3 ch emis t ? 2 4 A. Pardon me? 2 5 q. What was your work; what did you WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048026 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 2 actua1ly do? 13 3 A. I was primarily involved in doing 4 analyses of a variety of samples for polychlorides 5 biphenyls or PCBs. 6 Q. What types of analyses were you 7 doing, can you tell me? 8 A. It was quantitative analyses, for 9 the most part, using gas chromatography. 1 0 Q. Where did you learn the use of 1 1 quantitative analyses using gas chromatography? 12 MR. MALIN: Excuse me. I object to 1 3 the form of the question. He said 14 analyses. 15 MR. COHEN: He said quantity. 16 THE WITNESS:. I said 17 MR. MALIN: I'm sorry 18 MR. COHEN:- I said ; he 19 said quantitative. 2 0 THE WITNESS: My training began 2 1 during my undergraduate education and summer 2 2 employment during tha.t time continued 2 3 through graduate training. 2 4 BY MR. COHEN: 2 5 Q. Where were you employed then during WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048027 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 2 the summer years when you were doing gas 19 3 chromatography? 4 A. I was employed for two summers at 5 Miles Laboratories. 6 Q. M-y-l-e-s? 7 A. M-i-l-e-s. 8 Q . M-i? 9 A. In Elkhart, Indiana, and one summer 1 0 with Dow Chemical Company in Midland, Michigan. 1 1 Q. Did either of these jobs involve 12 analyses whether qaualitative or quantitative 13 looking for the existence of the quantities of 14 PCBs ? 1 5 A. No, they did not. 1 6 Q. Tell me about your training in gas 17 chromatography together with Miles Laboratories 1 8 and Dow Chemical? 19 A. Well, it was notso much training a 2 0 it was just on-the-job training, in that I was 2 1 introduced to the instruments, which I had some 2 2 knowledge with anyway, and -basically shown how 2 3 they expected the instruments to be used on the 2 4 particular analyses I was doing. 2 5 Q. Were you given a procedures manual WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048028 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 2 at that time for the use of the gas 20 3 chromatography? 4 A. I believe I was at Miles. I don't 5 recall at Dow. 6 Q. Were you given any information 7 regarding published or accepted protocols for the 8 use of the gas chromatography? 9 A. Not that I recall. 10 Q. Do you recall the use of any 11 particular standard procedures for the use of gas 12 chromatography back in those days, which would 1 3 have been, I guess, in the mid - '60s? 14 A. Not other than what the company 15 itself was using. 1 6 Q. What was, do-you recall, the name of 17 the instruments you were using, the brand name? 18 A. No, I don't. 19 Q. Was it a mass spectrometry-type 2 0 ins t rume nt ? 2 1 A. Not during that time period, no, 2 2 sir. 2 3 Q. Did they exist during that time 2 4 period, to your recollection? 2 5 A. No, in association -- well, they WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048029 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 21 2 were not commonly available associated with gas 3 chromatographs, no. 4 Q. When did they first become 5 available, that is mass spectrometry become 6 associated, available and associated with gas 7 chromatography? 8 A. It was during the 1960s that it was 9 developed in certain research labs, both in the 10 United States and in Europe. It was probably 11 commercially available towards the end of the 12 1960s and became more readily available during the 1 3 early 1970s. 1 4 Q. When you started with Monsanto in 1 5 1973 doing quantitative analyses using gas 16 chromatography, were you also using mass 17 spectrometry? 18 A. I was not,, no. 19 Q. Was it available in your laboratory? 2 0 A. It was available and in an 2 1 associated laboratory, yes. 2 2 Q. Butnotin the laboratories in which 2 3 you were working? 2 4 A. That's correct. 2 5 Q. Do you know if Monsanto at that time WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048030 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 22 2 was doing quantitative analyses for PCBs in the 3 same sample material that you were working on 4 using mass spectrometry? 5 MR. MALIN: I object to the form of 6 the question, because I don't understand it. 7 If you think you understand the question, 8 try and answer it. 9 BY MR. COHEN: 1 0 Q. We haven't yet identified the sample 1 1 material and products that you were analyzing, 12 have we? 1 3 A . That's true. 14 Q. So, I don't know what they are. So 15 I'm just asking you about the same type of sample 1 6 material that you were analyzing. 17 Do you know if Monsanto -- 18 A. I don't specifically recall. 19 Q. Did the gas chromatography that you 2 0 were doing back in the '60s, when you were still 2 1 an undergraduate, involve the use of a packed 22 column? . 2 3 A. Yes, itdid. 2 4 Q. And did that process continue to 2 5 involve the use of a packed column using gas WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048031 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 23 2 chromatography throughout that time period that we 3 have been discussing up through the mid- '70s when 4 you were with Monsanto? 5 A. For the most part, yes. 6 Q. What do you mean by "for the most 7 part"? Tell me when it was in use? 3 A. To the end of that period at 9 Monsanto, we were beginning to investigate the use 10 of capillary columns. 11 Q. When did you first start using 12 capillary columns instead of packed columns 13 analyses with your gas chromatography at Monsanto, 14 do you reca11? 15 A. Well, during the time periods I 16 mentioned, towards the end of your time period, we 17 began investigating the use on an occasional . 1 8 basis; but I don't know that it ever replaced it. 1 9 Q. Today, is Monsanto still using 2 0 packed column gas chromatography in their analyses 2 1 and analytical laboratories? 2 2 A. For some purposes, yes. 2 3 Q. And capillary columns for other 2 4 purposes? 2 5 A. That's correct. WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048032 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 24 2 Q. Can you tell us the purposes for 3 each, to your knowledge? 4 A. They are wide and varying for both. 5 It depends on the particular analysis that's being 6 done. 7 Q. How about for quantitative analyses, 8 looking for quantities of PCBs in the sample? 9 What type of analyses are they doing today, to . 1 0 your knowledge? 11 A. Capillary columns. 12 Q. Does that include the mass 13 spectrometry? 14 A. Yes, it does. 15 Q. How long has massspectrometry, to 1 6 your knowledge, been used on a regular basis by 17 Monsanto in quantitative analyses for PCBs? 1 8 A. Approximately since the mid-1970s, 19 but I would add not exclusively during that time 2 0 period. There were some GC analyses being done 2 1 without mass spectrometry, also. 2 2 Q. Have you ever had an opportunity to 2 3 compare the results between gas chromatography 2 4 using mass spectrometry and gas chromatography 2 5 without mass spectrometry on quantitative analyses WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048033 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 2 for PCBs? 3 . A. Yes. 4 Q. What have you found, generally? 5 A. I think generally, depending on the 6 analysis, each may or may not have specific 7 advantages for a particular analysis and done 8 correctly both can give acceptable answers. 9 Q. What were the samples that you were 1 0 doing quantitative analyses of back in 1973? 1 1 A. There were a variety of samples, 12 including environmental samples, submitted to our 1 3 laboratory and also including research samples 14 generated within our laboratory. 15 Q. Did you ever sample product that was 1 6 manufactured? . 17 MR. MALIN: Object to the form of 18 the question. I don't understand it. When 19 you say product that was manufactured, you 2 0 mean that was product that was manufactured 2 1 current 1y? 2 2 MR. COHEN: Strike that. 2 3 BY MR. COHEN: 2 4 Q. Did you ever have the occasion to 2 5 analyze, quantitative analysis using gas WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048034 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 26 2 chromatography back in 1973, newly manufactured 3 product manufactured by the Monsanto Company? 4 A. I would say in 1973, the answer is 5 no . 6 Q. At some time in your employment, did 7 that practice change? > 8 A. Well, I guess I would ask you what 9 you mean by analyze newly manufactured product? 10 Q. Well, I am referring to the use of 11 quantitative analysis to analyze samples of 12 product for the purpose of determining quality 13 control . 14 MR. MALIN: I will object to the 1 5 form of the question. I don't understand it 16 from a technical point of view; just not 17 understandable. 18 You mean analysis for something you 19 sort of know what you are looking for. 20 , MR. COHEN: Well, we're looking for 2 1 PCBs, quantities of PCBs. 2 2 BY MR. COHEN: 2 3 Q Isn't that right,, sir? 2 4 A . It can b e . 2 5 Q Well, isn't that what you were WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048035 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 2 looking for when you were doing quantitative 3 analyses in 19 7 3 ? 4 A . That's correct. 5 Q Tell me what else you were looking 6 for? 7 A . Well, I was looking for PCBs. 8 Q The quantities of PCBs? 9 A . Right, but in PCBs. 10 Q You identified two different types 11 of samples: Environmental samples and research 12 samples you said, among other things? 13 A . That 1s correct. 14 Q Won't you tell me the other things 15 that might make that inquiry somewhat simpler? 1 6 What were the other types of samples you -- 17 A. If I said that, it was just 1 8 colloquialism. Those were the two types of 19 samples we looked at in general terms. 2 0 Q. Now, describe for me what you mean 2 1 by environmental samples? 2 2 A. Those were samples of, for instance, 2 3 water or soil or, in some cases, animal tissue 2 4 taken from the environment outside the Monsanto 2 5 Company Research Laboratory that I was involved WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048036 1 2 with. ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D 23 3 Q. What were the research samples? 4 A. Part of the responsibilities of our 5 group were to investigate certain properties of 6 po1ychorinated biphenyls, and in those 7 investigations, samples were generated which were 8 analyzed for PCB content. 9 MR. COHEN: May have that last 10 answer read back to me? 11 (The record was read.) 12 BY MR. COHEN: 13 Q. What was your participation in that 14 process of investigating certain properties of 1 5 PCBs? 16 A. My primary purpose was doing the 17 actual analysis by gas chromatography. 18 Q. For quantities of PCBs; is that 1 9 right? 2 0 A. In general, that's true, yes. 2 1 Q. All right. 2 2 You say in general. What else were 2 3 you looking for, whether it was from time to time 2 4 or on any basis, other than quantity? 2 5 A. Well, especially in environmental WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048037 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 29 2 samples, part of the process was to attempt to 3 determine, if possible, which particular product 4 might have been responsible for the residue 5 detected. 6 Q. So you were looking at environmental 7 samples to identify, if you could, the product as 8 originally manufactured that ended up in that 9 environmental specimen? 10 A. That is part of the process, yes. 11 Q. Were you able to do that? 12 A. In some instances, yes; and some, 1 3 no . 14 Q. How did you do it? 15 A. At that time, primarily by looking 1 6 at the patterns of the peaks on the gas 17 chromatogram and matching it to a pattern 18 generated by a standard product. 19 Q. What do you mean by a standard 2 0 product? 2 1 A. One of the products as manufactured 2 2 by Monsanto Company. 2 3 Q. Well, did you actually get a product 2 4 that came out of the factory and analysis it to 2 5 see the peaks that it produced, or did you have a WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048038 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 30 2 published standard from which you were working? 3 A. We used our own products as 4 standards, as did everyone else in the country. 5 Q. Indeed, would it be fair to say at 6 that time there were published standards 7 reflecting the peaks that the product produced? 8 MR. MALIN: I will object to the 9 form of the question, which I don't quite 10 understand it. If you think you understand 11 the question, you may answer. 12 Could I ask what time frame you're 13 talking about when you say at that time? 14 BY MR. COHEN: 1 5 Q. I'm talking about the time frame 16 that you are talking about. 17 Starting in 1973, when you were an 18 analytical chemist on quantitative analysis using 1 9 gas chromatography? 2 0 A. Certainly by 1974, ASTM, the 2 1 American Society for Testing and Materials had 2 2 published a standard method, for PCBs and 2 3 environmental samples, which was based on the 2 4 Monsanto technology. So at that point, by then, 2 5 certainly there was a published method. WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048039 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 31 2 Q. Now, that was the methodology that 3 was published; is that right; how the test is 4 done? 5 A . That's correct. 6 Q Now, were part of the AS TM published 7 methodology a printout of an expected gas 8 chromatograph of Monsanto's product? 9 A . I would not use the term "expected," 1 0 but certainly in that method there were published 11 chromatograms of analyses of Monsanto's product, 12 yes . 1 3 0. What I am trying to understand, sir, 14 in your work during that time period when you were 15 trying to identify the product that ended up in 1 6 the environmental sample, were you comparing the 17 environmental sample to a chromatogram that you 1 8 were producing on the spot, so to speak, of your 1 9 own product, or were you comparing it to one of 2 0 these published chromatograms? 2 1 A. We probably were comparing it to 2 2 standards in our laboratory that we were producing 2 3 at the time we were doing the analysis. 2 4 Q. Did you, in 1974, at least, have the 2 5 opportunity to see and be familiar with the WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048040 1 ROBERT C-. KALEY, II, Ph . D . 32 2 published chromatograms that were available for 3 Monsanto products? 4 A. I certainly saw some of them. I 5 wouldn't know whether I saw all of them or not. 6 That's unlikely. 7 Q. Were you satisfied that the 8 chromatograms that you saw that were published and 9 that were generally available in 1974 were 10 reflective of a chromatogram that Monsanto's 11 product would produce, if analyzed in accordance 12 with ASTM's methodology? 13 MR. MALIN: I object to the form of 14 the question. 15 Answer the question, if you 1 6 understand it. 17 THE WITNESS: I don't think that . 18 there can be a general characterization as 1 9 to either the suitability or unsuitability 2 0 of the published work without reference to a 2 1 specific paper. 2 2 BY MR. COHEN: . 2 3 Q. So, if you saw a particular 2 4 chromatogram, and I'm going to put it in front of 2 5 you and I said that from 1974 you could then say, WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048041 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 33 2 well, you felt that this was an accurate 3 chromatogram of what the product would produce or 4 you might say that it was not? 5 A. I mean, if you were to put a paper 6 in front of me and ask me that, yes. I don't know 7 that I could answer one way or the other without 8 reading the paper and possibly trying to 9 understand from it what the authors did and what 1 0 it purported to represent. 11 Q. I think you said that, at least as 12 of 1974, there were published chromatograms 13 available reflecting or that were reflective of 14 your product. 15 Would you say that situation has 16 continued through today that published 17 chromatograms are available for various Aroclor . 18 products ? . 19 A. Certainly. 2 0 Q. Was it an accepted practice, as you 2 1 understood it back in 1973 or '74, to try to 2 2 determine from environmental samples the product 2 3 that had ended up in that sample? 2 4 A. People were certainly trying to do 2 5 that. I don't know that it was an accepted WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048042 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 34 2 3 Q. Well, indeed, you were one of the 4 people who was trying to do it? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. Would you agree that subsequent to 7 that time that practice has become more 8 widespread, if not accepted? 9 MR. MALIN: Objection to the form of 10 the question. 11 If you think you understand that 12 question, go ahead and answer it. 1 3 THE WITNESS: I would like to make a 14 clarifying statement which may shorten this 1 5 line of questioning. That is that when PCBs 1 6 have been in the environment for some period 17 of time, there are chromatic pattern 18 changes. . 19 So that attempts to identify which 2 0 product may have been responsible for that 2 1 particular PCB in a sample may be more or 2 2 less successful, depending on the degree to 2 3 which the PCBs have changed. 2 4 So to go back to answer your 2 5 question, I think people continue to look at WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048043 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 35 2 environmental samples and in some instances 3 do try to make assignment of that particular 4 residue to a particular product. 5 That procedure may or may not be 6 accurate or reflective of the true 7 situation, depending on the 8 of that particular sample. 9 BY MR. COHEN: 10 Q. When you use the phrase 1 1 "environmental samples," do you mean to include in 12 that animal tissue? 13 A . Yes. 14 Q - And that was with respect to your 15 answer, I was asking you? 16 A . Yes. 17 They would c ily be included. 1 8 Q. And would you agree that the process 19 that people use, with apparently varying degrees 2 0 of success, is the same process that you had used 2 1 back in the '70s which is producing a chromatogram 2 2 from a gas chromatographic analysis and comparing 2 3 that to one produced from an examination of the 2 4 product itself? 2 5 MR. MALIN: I will object to the WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048044 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph . D . 36 2 form of the question. If you think you can 3 answer that broad a question, give it a 4 shot. 5 THE WITNESS: In their most general 6 they are essentially the 7 same process. 8 BY MR. COHEN: 9 Q. Can you tell me the properties of 10 PCBs that were being investigated by the group 11 with which you were involved in 1973? 12 MR. MALIN: Objection to the form of 13 the question. I don't think he talked about 14 properties, per se. 15 At least, if you think you 1 6 understand the question, try and answer-Jut------ 17 THE WITNESS: With regard to my 18 previous answer, we were looking at the 19 biodegradation of PCBs. We were looking at 2 0 soil transport. 2 1 We were looking at solubility in 2 2 water. 2 3 There may have been others. Those 2 4 are the ones that come to mind right now. 2 5 BY MR. COHEN: WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUS1LOW WATER PCB-00048045 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 37 2 Q. Now, was there anongoing 3 investigation when you joined Monsanto in 1973? 4 A. Yes, itwas. 5 Q. Do you know how long that 6 investigation had been continuing in existence at 7 the time you joined them in 1973? 8 A. Since probably the 'So or 1969 time 9 period; maybe even a little before then. 10 Q. Do you know what the impetus was 11 that caused that investigation to begin whenever 12 it was in the late '60s? 1 3 A. In general terms, I do, yes. 14 Q . What was it? 1 5 A. From the primary impetus was reports 1 6 from Europe in about 1966 that PCB residues had 17 been identified in environmental samples by 18 researchers in Sweden. 19 Q. Anything else that was reported? 2 0 A. Well, I mean, that was the first 2 1 report. 2 2 Q. The first report that you're 2 3 referring to simply identified the existence of 2 4 the residues in environmental samples? 2 5 A. That's WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048046 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 38 2 Q. Was there any suspected concern 3 regarding the presence of these residues in the 4 environmental samples? 5 MR. MALIN: I will object to the 6 form of the question. He's already 7 indicated that he wasn't there in 1968. if 8 you want to talk about the time period -- 9 BY MR. COHEN: 1 0 Q. Let me ask you this, Doctor. 1 1 Did you see that report apparently 12 from Europe done by researchers in Sweden 1 3 regarding the presence of PCB residues in 14 environmental samples? 1 5 A. When ? 16 Q. In 19 7 3. . 17 A. Probably shortly after joining the 18 company in either late ' -7 3 or early '74, I 19 probably read the paper, yes. 2 0 Q And are you familiar with the 2 1 paper ' s contents? 22 A. Yes, lam. 2 3 Q And can you tell me, then, going 2 4 back to an earlier question, was the sole concern 2 5 that the residues of the material was being found WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048047 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 2 in environmental samples? 39 3 MR. MALIN: I object to the form of 4 the question. 5 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I 6 understand -7 MR. MALIN: That sole concern? 8 THE WITNESS: -- the question. 9 MR. MALIN: If you think you can 10 answer the question, try and answer it. 11 BY MR. COHEN: 12 Q. Was there any concern raised by the 1 3 researchers in Sweden regarding the presence of 14 the product's residues in the environmental 15 samples? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. What was the concern? 1 8 A. Well, the primary concern at the 1 9 time was that this was a material with which 2 0 people at the time were not particularly Camiliar. 2 1 They were doing pesticide analyses, at the time 2 2 there was concern about pesticides to the 2 3 environment, and I would say that some of that 2 4 concern was transferred to the finding of PCBs, 2 5 but the true significance wasn't understood at the WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048048 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D 40 2 time. 3 Q. What do you mean by "true 4 significance"? ' 5 A. Well, I don't think anybody k new- 6 enough about PCBs at the time, other than -- I 7 mean, other than just knowing what they were, to 8 determine whether there was any other concern or 9 not . 1 0 Q. To your knowledge, sir, how long has 11 Monsanto been manufacturing PCB products and 12 selling those products? 1 3 A. Well, since 1935. 14 Q. And do I understand that the first 15 time that an investigation to determine certain 16 properties of PCBs, specifically biodegradable, 1 7 soil transport, solubility in water was conducted 1 8 by Monsanto was sometime- slightly preceding the 19 1968 to '69 time period? 2 0 A. I don't think that's a fair 21 2 2 I'm sure there were other types of 2 3 investigations going on throughout the time of 2 4 manufacture . 2 5 Q. Can you identify them for me? WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048049 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 41 2 A. Well, certainly they would have been 3 looking at characterizations as to their 4 suitability as products. There were 5 as to quality control of the 6 batches that were being manufactured. 7 There had been certain amounts of 8 toxilogical testings done prior to that time 9 period. 10 Q. Are you familiar with that 11 toxilogical testing? 12 A. In the most general of terms, yes. 1 3 Q. In other words, you know the testing 14 was done? 1 5 A. That's about the extent of it, yes. 1 6 Q. Have you ever had a chance to review 1 7 any of those tests? 1 8 A. Not those early tests, no, I have 19 not . 2 0 Q. Do you know when the first tests 2 1 were started? 2 2 A . Not for sure 2 3 Q Do you know whether Monsanto did the 2 4 testing inhouse or whether they had 2 5 subcontracted it out? WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048050 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 42 2 A. My recollection is that it was done 3 outside of Monsanto. 4 Q Do you know the names of the 5 1aboratories that did the testing? 6 A . N o , I don't. 7 Q You' re aware of testing done du r i ng 8 the '70s, at least by Industrial Biotest? 9 A . I am aware of those tests. 1 0 Q Are you aware of any testing done by 11 othe r than Industrial Biotest during 12 the same time period? 1 3 A. Yes, lam. 14 Q. And that would be toxilogical 1 5 testing? 1 6 A . Yes. 17 Can you identify the 18 that you are familiar wi.th? 19 A . Younger Laboratories. 2 0 Q They are located in St. Louis? 2 1 A . That's correct. Suburban St. Louis. 2 2 Q Anyothers? . 2 3 A . That's all I know. 2 4 Q Do you know when the first 2 5 toxiloaical testina or WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048051 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 43 2 externally on PCBs? 3 A . My is during the early 4 1950s. 5 Q - Do you know what the subjects of the S tests were? 7 A . Not for sure, no. 8 Q Well, did they use animals for 9 testing? 10 A . I believe so, yes. 11 Q Do you know? 12 A . If that's what you meant by 13 sub j ects ? 14 Q Yes. 1 5 A . Yes, I believe they did use animals 16 Q Do you know the laboratory that did 17 the testing? 18 A . No, I don't. 19 Q. Do you know the species? 2 0 A . Not specifically, no. 2 1 Q Tell me about the quality control 2 2 work that was being done prior to the late '60s 2 3 Was that being done inhouse? 2 4 A. Yes. 2 5 Q. What would have been the analysis WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048052 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 44 2 that was being done as far as quality control is 3 concerned. What were they looking for? 4 A. Primarily, they were looking to 5 assay the product was my understanding. 6 Q. When you say "assay the product," 7 what is that qualitative and quantitative analysis 8 of the product in order to determine the substance 9 that was actually being manufactured and the 10 quantity of each of its components? 11 A. With the exclusion of your last 12 phrase, the quantity of each of its components, I 13 would agree, yes. 14 At that time, they were not doing 15 analysis for the quantities of each component. 16 Q. What control do you know of that 17 existed prior to the mid to late '60s to assure 18 that the product that was going out the door had 19 the quantity of each component that Monsanto 2 0 desired? 2 1 A. I really don't. 2 2 MR. MALIN: Objection to the form of 2 3 the qu e s tio n. 2 4 THE WITNESS: I don't know the 2 5 answer to that. WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048053 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 45 2 BY MR. COHEN: 3 Q Do y o u know who would? 4 A . No , I don't. 5 Q In the assay o f the product, as you 6 referred to it, the qual it a t i%re analysis, do you 7 know what specific components they would be 8 looking for? 9 A . PCBs . 10 Q Anything else? 11 A . Not that I know of, no. 12 Q How about compounds like PCBS? 1 3 MR. MALIN: Excuse me. Are we 14 talking about the time period of the '50s 15 now? 16 MR. COHEN: I am talking about the 17 '60s. 18 BY MR. COHEN: . 19 Q Prior to the 1963, '69 time period, 2 0 do you know, were they looking for the presence of 2 1 PCDF? 2 2 A . I am certain .they were not. 2 3 Q Certain they were not. Do you know 2 4 when Monsanto first began doing QC checks for the 2 5 presence of PCDFs? WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048054 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 2 A . Yes, I do 3 Q When was that? 4 A . 197 1. 5 Q Now, what makes you so certain that 6 it was 1971? 7 A. Because at that time frame, a 8 report, again from Europe, reported the presence 9 of PCDFs in European PCB products. Monsanto 1 0 scientists actually went to Europe and talked to 11 the particular researchers to obtain their 12 technology brought that technology back and 1 3 Monsanto Company basically confirmed their 1 4 findings that PCDFs were present in foreign 1 5 materials, but could not be detected in 16 Monsanto-manufactured products. 17 Q. Do you know at what level the PCDFs 18 were identified in foreign materials? 19 A. My recollection is 10 to 20 parts 2 0 per million. 2 1 Q Parts per million? 2 2 A . That's correct. 2 3 Q - And do you know the foreign products 2 4 that contained that 1 eve 1 of PCDFs that were being 2 5 referred to in 19 7 1? WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048055 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 47 2 A. I believe they were the Kanechlor 3 product and Prodelec product. 4 Q. Kanechlor, as I understand it, is a 5 product of Mitsubishi Electric? 6 I don't believe -- that may be 7 8 I don't know for sure. 9 What was the other product you 10 11 Prodelec. The Prodelec product. 12 That product - 13 There were the clorphens. They may 14 have been involved also. I don't really recall. 15 Prodelec is a French product. I think that's 1 6 actually the company's name and not the product 17 name . 18 Q. Whatwas the detection levels that 19 was available in Monsanto's testing at that time 2 0 in 1971 for PCDFs, do you know? 2 1 A. I believe they were reporting one to 2 2 two parts per million as a -detection limit. 2 3 Q. So if there were PCDFs in Monsanto's 2 4 product as of 1971, that is the new product that 2 5 was going out the door, it was not detectable WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048056 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 43 2 because it was below the one to two parts per 3 million detection limit; is that fair to say? 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. And it was new productthat was 6 going out the door that was being analyzed at that 7 time; is that right? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. Do you know howfrequently it was 1 0 being analyzed? 11 A. Not very. I think it was a 1 2 one-time -- as at that particular instance, it was 1 3 a one-time investigation to basically try to 14 confirm the European work and at that time, once 1 5 that confirmation was done, I believe that project 16 was, I won't say stopped, but certainly it was not 17 an ongoing project. 18 Q. Did Monsanto ever adopt, to your 19 knowledge, and I am speaking about , obviously, 2 0 subsequent to 1971, a quality control analysis of 2 1 the product going out the door for PCDFs? 2 2 A. Nottomy knowledge. 2 3 Q. Have they done an occasional 2 4 analysis of new products for PCDF content? 2 5 MR. MALIN: Objection to the form of WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048057 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 49 2 the question. What time frame? 3 THE WITNESS: I was going -- 4 BY MR. COHEN: 5 Q. Subsequent to 1971. 6 A. Yes, that's correct. 7 Q. Apparently, they never didit before 3 1971, didn't have the technique and when they did 9 try it on their own product, they came up below a 1 0 detection limit? 1 1 A. That's correct. 1 2 Q. Can you tell me howfrequently they 13 have done quality control analyses for PCDF 1 4 contents subsequent to 1971? 1 5 A. I would say they have never done 1 6 quality control analysis, as I understand the term 17 quality control analysis. 1 8 Q. Tell me what your understanding is 19 of the term quality control analysis? 2 0 A. I would say quality control analysis 2 1 is a routine check of a particular property or 2 2 whatever on a product as it is manufactured and 2 3 marketed. 2 4 Q. In order to determine that it meets 2 5 certain specifications; would that be fair to say? WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048058 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 50 2 A. That's correct. In general, that's 3 true . 4 Q. So they have never done quality 5 control analysis of PCB products to determine the 6 presence of PCDFs? 7 A. No. I would say that's correct as 8 we're talking about the term of quality control, 9 yes . 10 Q. But they apparently have done some 1 1 occasional analysis of the product in order to 12 determine the presence or lack thereof of PCDFs? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. Do you know how frequently that 1 5 analysis has been done? 16 A . I would say five or six times over 17 the period 1971 to 1977, when we quit making the 18 product. 1 9 Q Five or six times total? 2 0 A . Roughly, I would think. 21 Q 2 2 period? In approximately a six-year time 2 3 A . That ' s correct. 2 4 Q - How many plants during that six-year 2 5 time period were manufacturing products containing WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048059 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 2 PCBs, do you know? 51 3 A. In the United States? 4 Q. Yes. 5 A. One. 6 Q. And where was that plant? 7 A. In Sauget, Illinois. 8 Q. So, of necessity, obviously, it 9 would have been product manufactured at that plant 1 0 that they were analyzing? 11 A. In general, that's true. 12 They actually did analyze some 1 3 retained samples from that Anniston plant. At 14 least on one occasion I recall. 1 5 Q. Do you know if there was any 1 6 variation between the findings between the product 17 from Sauget and Anniston? 18 A. I would have to say that in general 19 the answer is no, but there was very few Anniston 2 0 products analyzed. So it is difficult to make a 2 1 general characterization like that. 2 2 Q. Doyouknow w-h at level of PCDFs were 2 3 detected in new products by Monsanto's own tests 2 4 during these five or six different tests, if any 2 5 levels were found? WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048060 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 52 2 A . In general, I do, yes. 3 Q What was the level? 4 A . Well, depends on the product. 5 In general, 1016 had no detectable 6 PCBs . 7 Aroclor 1242 was generally less than 8 two PPBs. 9 The Aroclor 1254 product. 1 0 Q PPBs we're talking? 11 A . PPM . If I said PPM, I misspoke. 1 2 Q - You said PPB. Are we talking PPM? 1 3 A . Yes, I misspoke. I'm talking about 14 per million. 15 Aroclor 1254, in general, were below 1 6 five parts per million, although there were a few 17 higher analyses. Aroclor 1260 was generally in 18 the one to two parts per million range, also. 19 Q. Does Monsanto consider PCPD to be an 2 0 impurity in the product? 2 1 A. I would -- 2 2 MR. MALIN: I- object to the form of 2 3 the question. If you think you are in a 2 4 position to answer that, try and answer it. 2 5 THE WITNESS: That term is probably WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048061 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 53 2 as appropriate as any to describe their 3 presence there. 4 BY MR. COHEN: 5 Q. Are there any other compounds like 6 PCDFs that Monsanto considered impurities that 7 they began analyzing for, whether on a quality 8 control basis or on an occasional non-quality 9 control basis, subsequent to 1971? 10 A. I guess I don't know what you mean 1 1 by 1 ike PCDFs. 12 Q. Well, that is an impurity of 1 3 substance that they did not intend to be in the 14 product such as dioxin, for example? 15 A. There were a few analyzed for 1 6 polychlorinated naphthalenes. The early work, 1 7 apparently the 1971 work, apparently did look for 1 8 dioxins; none were detected. 1 9 Q. Have any further tests been done 2 0 looking for dioxins in new products, to your 2 1 knowledge? 2 2 A. By Monsanto, .not to my knowledge, 2 3 no. 2 4 Q. Do you know what the pesticides were 2 5 that those Swedish researchers were looking for WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUS1LOW WATER PCB-00048062 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 54 2 back in 1971 that caused the initial inquiry? Was 3 it '71 or was it '68? 4 A . '66. 5 Q. '66? 6 A. DDT and it's metabolites. 7 Q. Do you know how it is thatthey came 8 about to discover the presence of PCBs while 9 looking for DDT and its metabolite? 1 0 A. In general, yes. 11 Q. Would you tell me? 12 A. DDT was being analyzed for using a 13 new detector on gas chromatograph was very 14 sensitive to chlorinated compounds. DDT -- and it 15 has two principal metabolites known as DTE and 16 DDD -- which would account' for three peaks in a 17 gas chromatogram. 18 When they were doing these analyses, 19 the researchers apparently noted that in some or 2 0 most samples there was a larger series or envelope 2 1 of peaks that were occurring, and eventually, they 2 2 found an eagle sample, which had relatively large 2 3 amounts of these peaks in them, large enough, in 2 4 fact, that they could analyze that particular 2 5 sample by mass spectrometry and basically, to make WISE HATCHER D1NTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048063 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 55 2 a long story short, they eventually determined 3 that to say peaks were possibly chlorinated 4 biphenyls. 5 Q 6 DDT? What is the chemical composition o f 7 A . In what sense? I mean, it is made 8 carbon, hydrogen and chlorine. 9 Q Does it have any phenol? 10 A . Excuse me? 11 Q Are there any phenol molecules? 12 A . Ph eno1 . 13 Q . Phenol? 14 A . 0-1? 15 Q - Yes. 16 A . No . 17 Q How how about DDEs? 18 A . No . ' 19 Q DDD? 2 0 A . No . 2 1 Q Who were the Swedish researchers who 2 2 were doing that research? 2 3 A . They were James W. Jensen and 2 4 Widma rk. 2 5 Q And you said an eagle sample WISE HATCHER D INTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048064 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 56 2 You're referring to a bird? . 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. . And it was in tissue? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Now, you had been telling meabout 7 your work from 1973. 8 When did your actual duties.change 9 from the quantitative analysis that you were doing 1 0 using gas chromatography? 1 1 A. Well, in about I guess 19 -- I guess 12 about 1983 or '84, maybe later -- no, excuse me. 13 I'm sorry. In about 1975, I 14 transferred to another group within the section I 15 was working in, and at that time began doing mass -1-6 --------spectrometry' analyses .- 17 Q - Of? 18 A. A variety of products of the 1 9 chemical company, of Monsanto Industrial Chemical 2 0 Companies. 2 1 Q. Did that include PCBs? 22 2 3 Q. What, at that time, were youlooking 2 4 for? 2 5 A. At that time, we began looking for WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048065 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Fh.D. 57 2 polychlorinated d i benzofurans in PCBs, and we also 3 occasionally looked for PCBs in other Monsanto 4 products. 5 Q. So you or your group were involved 6 in these five or six different tests for PCDFs? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. Were you looking for PCDFs in any 9 other sample other than Monsanto products? 10 A. In that time period, I do not 11 believe so, no . 12 Q. So when you said that you were 13 looking for PCBs and you said PCDFs, you were the 14 one or your group was the group involved in doing 1 5 those five or six analyses for PCDFs? 16 A. In that timeframe; correct. 1 7 Q. Did you write up your findings? 18 A. Not in any formal report, no. 19 Q. How did you record your findings? 2 0 A. I believe they were recorded on what 2 1 we had were little analytical request sheets where 2 2 the person requesting the analysis would make a 2 3 request on one side of the sheet and we would 2 4 report the results back on the other side. 2 5 Q. What happened to those analytical WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048066 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 53 2 requests sheets with the results reported on the 3 other side, do you know? 4 A. I mean, what do you mean what 5 happened to them? They were given to the guy who 6 was requesting. 7 Q. That's what I want to know. It went 8 back to the guy who made the request? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Who made the request for the PCDF 11 analysis, do you know? 12 A. Well, primarily the researchers that 13 were doing the product development work on that 14 product line. 15 Q . Do you know the names? 1 6 A. I know who was doing -- I don't know 17 who did the request. I mean, I know 18 who was in doing the research work. 1 9 Q. Tell me who the research -- 2 0 A. Dr. Richard -- Dr. William Richard, 2 1 Dr. Ralph Munch were the primary people involved 2 2 inthatwork. 2 3 Q. M-u-n-c-h? 2 4 A. That's correct. 2 5 Q. Are those people still with WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048067 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 59 2 Monsanto? 3 A. Dr. Richard is deceased and Dr. 4 Munch has retired. 5 Q. You said product line. What product 6 line were you referring to? 7 A. Well, the electrical fluids, 8 fluids . 9 Q Aroclors? 10 A . Yes. 11 Q. Did you do any work on products 12 containing PCBs other than the dielectric fluids? 1 3 A. Not that I recall. 14 Q. Did Monsanto manufacture at that 15 time PCB material in a product form other than 16 fluids? 17 A. Not at that time, no. 18 MR. M A LIN : Mr. Cohen, you realize 19 that is beyond the scope of the discovery 2 0 rule. Products other than dielectric fluids 2 1 are not within the scope. So I don't 2 2 mind -- 2 3 MR. COHEN: I didn't see that 2 4 limitation. It says Monsanto Company by the 2 5 individuals with the knowledge of the WISE HATCHER D1NTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048068 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 -16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. product purity of Monsanto products that 60 contained PCBs. I don't see a word about dielectric fluids in there. MR . MALIN: Transformer fluids in use at the Paoli Rail Yard, is the intent of the meaning of it, is obvious. MR . COHEN: I think you are reading Section D . I'm referring to Section E, "transformer fluid sold for use at Paoli Rail Yard" applies to S ection D. I ' m talking about Section E. MR . MALIN: Well -- MR . COHEN: Are you instructing the witness not to answer? MR . MALIN: I'm-going to permit a preliminary question. If you're going into- that detail, I'm going to direct him not to answer. BY MR. COHEN: Q. When was the last time that Monsanto manufactured a product containing PCBs, other than dielectric fluid, to your knowledge? A. To my knowledge, 1972. Q. And what was that product? WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048069 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 61 2 A. It was either our, I think it was a 3 hydraulic fluid line, Pydraul fluid. 4 THE WITNESS: Could we take a break? 5 MR. COHEN: Absolutely. S 7 (A short recess was taken) 8 9 BY MR. COHEN: 1 0 Q. Is Pentach1oropheno1 a PCB? 11 A. Pentach1oropheno1, o-l, is not a 1 2 PCB . 1 3 You had said that you were working 1 4 in 1973 and then in 1975 you 1 5 to another group. 16 That's correct. -- 17 What was the name of your 1973 18 group? 1 9 A . Analytical Chemistry Group. 2 0 Q And your 1975 group? 2 1 A . Spectroscopy group. 2 2 Q Did you have -like a group leader, 2 3 person who was designated who was sort of 2 4 charge of that group? 2 5 A. Which? WISE HATCHER DIMTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048070 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 2 Q. Either group. 62 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Tell me about your 1973 group, the 5 Analytical Chemistry Group; who was the leader? 6 A. Scott Tucker. 7 Q. And your 1975 group, the 8 Spectroscopy Group? 9 A. Martin Dietrich. 10 Q. Do you know the names of the other 11 members of your 1973 group? 12 A. Probably some of them. 13 Q. All right. Do your best. 14 A. Ozzie Kinast, Chester Brackbill, 15 Oreville Hicks, Vic Sager. 1 6 Those are the ones I can recall. 17 Q. How about your 1975 group? 13 A. Dave Guerry, Bernie Katlafsky, I 19 think. Scott Tucker was in that group for a 2 0 whi1e. 2 1 Those are the ones I recall. 2 2 Q. How long did -you stay in the 2 3 Spectroscopy group? 2 4 A. Until 1973. 2 5 Q. Then what did you do? WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048071 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 63 2 A. I became a group leader in the 3 Environmental Analysis Section. I guess it was 4 Environmental Scientist, actually, was the section 5 there . 6 Q. How long did you stay there? 7 A. Until 1981. 8 Q. Is that when you became a Senior 9 Research Specialist, mass spectrometry? 1 0 A. That's correct. 11 Q. And on and on through that 12 employment record that you have here? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. September 1986, youbecame manager 15 of the Environmental Technical Support at Monsanto 16 Company? - - . 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q You hold that position today? 19 A . That's correct. 2 0 Q What have your duties been? 2 1 A . Primarily my duties are to serve as 2 2 a resource within Monsanto .Company for a variety 2 3 of technical information relating to our products. 2 4 Q. For whom are you a resource? 2 5 A. A variety of groups: regulatory WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUS1L0W WATER PCB-00048072 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph . D. 2 people, manufacturing people, 64 3 Q. Internal manufacturing, outside 4 manufacturing? 5 A. Internal, yes. 6 I do handle some outside inquiries 7 on certain product lines. 8 I basically do through the whole 9 company, really. 10 Q. Regulatory groups. 11 Are you speaking of outside 12 regulatory groups? 13 A. I mean, as I spoke there I was 14 talking about internal people who worked with 15 regulatory groups. 16 I also have done, you know, have 17 interacted with outside regulatory groups. . 18 Q. How about .for counsel? 19 A. Yes, I work for the Law Department. 2 0 Q. You work for the Law Department? 2 1 A. I have worked for the Law Department 2 2 and I work with the Law Department.on occasion, 2 3 yes. 2 4 Q. Net a regular thing? 2 5 A. Depends on how many cases are going WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048073 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 65 2 on. Sometimes it is more regular than others. 3 Q. Well, do you advise outside counsel 4 in lawsuits brought against Monsanto regarding 5 PCBs? 6 A . Yes, I could. 7 Q. And do you participate in those 8 litigations in any way? 9 A. I don't know what you mean by 1 0 participate. 11 MR. MALIN: I object to the form of 12 the question. He's giving a deposition 1 3 here . 14 BY MR. COHEN: 1 5 Q. Well, you are participating, too. 1 6 You are giving a deposition? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. Do you participate otherwise? Do 19 you attend depositions? 2 0 A. I have done that. 2 1 Q. Indeed, you have attended 2 2 depositions in this matter,- have you not? 2 3 A. That's correct. 2 4 Q. That was Mr. Delaney? 2 5 A. I believe that was his name, yes. WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048074 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 66 2 Q. Any others ? 3 A. Excuse me, in this? 4 Q. Yes. 5 A. I don't believe so. 6 Q. And to be accurate, you did not 7 attend all of Mr. Delaney's deposition, did you? 8 A . I believe that's correct. I don't 9 know for sure . I believe that is correct that I 10 did not. 11 Q You attended one session or two 12 sessions? 1 3 A . I think I attended two sessions. 14 Q Have you had the occasion to testify 15 in other 1 i t i ns involving PCBs ? 1 6 A . Yes, I hav.e . 17 Q Have you acted as a witness in other 18 1 itigations? 19 A . Yes, I have. - 2 0 Q. Can you tell me the litigations in 2 1 which you have acted as a witness? 2 2 MR. MALIN: You wanta list of all 2 3 the court cases he has ever been in? 2 4 MR . COHEN: Sure, if he has them. 2 5 MR . MALIN: No , I don't have them WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048075 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 67 2 Give him all the cases that you have been 3 in . 4 THE WITNESS: I testified on the 5 stand in the City of Bloomington case, and 6 portions of my deposition testimony were 7 read into the record in the Scott litigation 8 in Texas. 9 Those are the only litigations that 10 I have actually testified in at trial. 11 BY MR. COHEN: 12 Q. Were you appearing in either 1 3 instance the Bloomington matter or Scott matter as 14 an expert? 15 A. I was certainly in Bloomington. I 1 6 don't know about Scott. In Bloomington, I was. 17 Q When you started with Monsanto -- 18 there others in which you gave depositions? 19 A . Gave depositions? 2 0 Q Yes. 2 1 A . Yes, I think so. 2 2 Q Okay . Tell me about them. 2 3 MR . MALIN: Didn't you give a 2 4 deposition in Haley? 2 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, you are right. I WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048076 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph . D . 63 2 did. Deposition in Haley litigation in 3 Michigan. 4 BY MR. COHEN: 5 Q Is that Haley versus Monsanto? 6 A . Y e.s . 7 Q H-a-l-e-y? 8 A . I believe that ' s right. 9 Q Michigan State Court ? 10 A . I don't know. I believe so. 11 MR. MALIN: I don't recal1 the 12 cases myself, you may. 13 THE WITNESS: I don't believe there 14 were any other PCB cases. 1 5 BY MR. COHEN: 16 Q. So, three matters that you can think 17 of-- 18 A. Yes. 1 9 Q. -- you have testified in? 2 0 A. Yes. 2 1 Q. You told me that as of 1973 you were 2 2 aware of testing that had been done by Monsanto 2 3 prior to that time regarding certain subjects that 2 4 was suitability of the product, quality control 2 5 packages and toxilogical studies, some of which WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048077 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 69 2 you identified as being done as early as the '50s; 3 is that right? 4 A. That's my recollection, yes. 5 q. What was your understanding of the 6 toxicological properties of PCBs in 1973 when you 7 started wi. th Monsanto? 8 MR. MALIN: I object to the form of 9 the question. If you think you understand 10 that, you're capable of answering it, you 1 1 may answer it. 12 He's not here as a toxicologist and 1 3 he hasn't said he's a toxicologist, but go 1 4 ahead. 1 5 MR. COHEN: I'm asking his 16 understanding? 17 THE WITNESS: My understanding was 18 that they were not particularly toxic, as 19 far as industrial chemicals go. Certainly 2 0 they had some toxicity associated with them, 2 1 as does any chemical. 2 2 BY MR.COHEN: 2 3 Q. What did you understand to be the 2 4 concern associated with the work done by the 2 5 European researchers, Jensen and Widmark, WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048078 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph . D . 70 2 regarding the toxicological properties of PCBs? 3 A. I don't know that I had an 4 understanding of their concern with regard to 5 toxicological properties. 6 Q. Did you know about the existence of 7 PCDFs when you started with Monsanto in 1973? 8 A . No, I did not. 9 Q. When did you first learn about 10 PCDFs? 11 Shortly thereafter. 12 Q And what did you know or believe 13 about the properties of PCDFs at 14 that time? 1 5 A. I think my understanding was that 1 6 they were probably more toxic than PCBs. 17 Q. Do you know why they were believed 1 8 to be more toxic than PCBs? 19 MR. MALIN: Objection to the form. 2 0 If you think you understand that, 2 1 answer the guestion. 2 2 Are you talking about chemical 2 3 structure or whatever? What are you talking 2 4 about ? 2 5 MR. COHEN: Whatever. I don't know. WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048079 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 71 2 I'm asking. He said he understood it was 3 more toxics than PCBs? 4 THE WITNESS: My understanding would 5 have been based on work reported in the 6 literature primarily by analogy to other 7 chemicals. 3 BY MR. COHEN: 9 Q. What other chemicals? 1 0 A. Primarily, the PCDD, the dioxin 11 compounds. 12 Q. Okay. 1 3 Now, what was it about the PCDDs 14 that either the literature reported or you believe 1 5 made them more toxic than PCBs? 16 A. I guess I don't understand exactly 17 what your question means. I mean, obviously, the 1 8 reports and the literature that dioxin compounds 1 9 were significantly toxic to certain species of 2 0 animals, and comparing that to what we knew about 2 1 PCBs, they were more toxic than PCBs. 2 2 Q. Well, did they indicate, that 2 3 literature that you are referring to, indicate why 2 4 the PCBs, PCDDs were more toxic than PCBs? 2 5 A. In that time period, I'm not sure WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048080 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 72 2 there was an understanding of that, no. 3 Q. In other words, there was simply a 4 reporting of finding higher toxicity without an 5 understanding; why? 6 A. That's my recollection. 7 Q. And the PCDFs were apparently more 8 likened to the PCDD.s than the PCBs? 9 A. That's correct. That's my 10 11 Q Do you know if they ever did 12 discover why PCDDs were more toxic than PCDFs? 13 A. Continuing inve t i on t o present 14 Q . What is your belief today p 1 5 A . My understanding is that it has 1 6 something to do with, speaking as basically a 17 layman in toxicology, it has something to do with 1 8 the mechanism of its toxicity. 19 Q. What is the mechanism of its 2 0 toxicity? 2 1 A. Some people believe that there is a 2 2 receptor in animal species .which dioxin compounds 2 3 latch onto. 2 4 Q. What is the belief regarding, as you 2 5 understand it, regarding the toxicity of PCDFs WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048081 1 2 today? ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 73 3 A. The relative toxicity or the 4 mecha n i sm of 5 Q Let's first talk about the relativ 6 toxicity? 7 A. Say the understanding is that they 8 are less toxic than the PCDD, but more toxic than 9 PCBs . 10 Q Any order of magnitude you can give 11 me ? 12 A. That depends on the particular 1 3 compound which you're speaking of. 1 4 Q. Higher chlorinated compounds seem to 15 be more toxic than the lower chlorinated 1 6 compounds? 17 A . Not necessarily. 1 8 Q Then what is the diffejrence? What 19 is the differentiating factor to determine the 2 0 toxicity to PCDFs as you understand it? 2 1 MR. MALIN: I object to the form of 22 the question. 2 3 Is your question one which addresses 2 4 itself to which PCDFs are more toxic than 2 5 others, and what is the reason if they are WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048082 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 74 2 more toxic than they are believed to be more 3 toxic? 4 Is that your question? 5 MR. COHEN: Yes. 6 MR. MALIN: Can you answer that 7 question? 8 THE WITNESS: I can answer. 9 My understanding of that process is 10 basically as a non-toxico1ogist, yes. 11 BY MR. COHEN: 12 Q. Give me your understanding as a 13 non-toxicologist? 14 A. My understanding is toxicity of 15 these types of compounds has to do with the 16 positioning of the chlorine atoms around the ring 1 7 structures of the compounds and that materials 18 with chlorines in the four lateral positions, 1 9 basically at the end of the two rings, whether 2 0 we're talking about PCDFs or PCDDs, tend to have 2 1 higher toxicity associated with them and that that 2 2 toxicity maximizes at the tetrachlorated or for a 2 3 ch1orine-containing compound. 2 4 Q. What about the toxicity of PCBs, any 2 5 relationship between the position of the chlorine WISE HATCHER DIHTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048083 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 75 2 atoms? 3 A. There appears to be, yes. 4 Q. Same relationship? 5 A. It is not as clear-cut, but the same 6 rough association is there, yes. 7 MR. MALIN: This question addresses 8 itself to PCDD or PCBs? 9 MR. COHEN: Well, I had first asked 10 about PCDFs, the nature of his understanding 11 today of the toxicity of PCDFs regarding the 12 toxicity of PCDDs, order of magnitude, and 1 3 also we got into then the issue of the 14 mechanism, and then comparing it to PCBs; is 1 5 that right? 1 6 THE WITNESS: Roughly, that is 17 correct, yes. I think, I believe I . 18 understood the questions, and I believe I 19 answered them as best I could. 2 0 BY MR. COHEN: 2 1 Q. Can you tell me why Monsanto stopped 2 2 manufacturing PCB products .in 1977? 2 3 MR. MALIN: I object to the form of 2 4 the question. No reason to believe that the 2 5 witness is in a position to know that. WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048084 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 76 2 BY MR. COHEN: 3 Q. Do you know? 4 A. I have an understanding. 5 Q. Tell me what your understanding is? 6 A. My understanding is that because of 7 the environmental problems and their apparently 8 widespread presence in the environment, and, 9 frankly, regulatory pressure, I believe Monsanto 10 felt it was in the Company's and environmental 11 best interest to stop making the products once all 12 substitutes were available. 13 Q. What was the concern regarding the 14 widespread presence in the environment? 15 A. The primary concern was that they IS were there and widespread. 17 Q. Was there any concern that they . 13 harmed the environment or any element in the 19 environment? 2 0 A. There were concerns along those 2 1 lines,yes. 2 2 Q. Were those concerns shared by 2 3 Monsanto personnel? 2 4 A. I believe so, yes. 2 5 MR. DUGGIM: I object to the scope WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048085 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 77 2 of these questions. They are for outside 3 the scope of discovery. 4 MR. COHEN: As I understand it, this 5 witness doesn't even know what products were 6 available; is that right? 7 THE WITNESS: Not specifically, no. 8 BY MR. COHEN: 9 Q. What was the belief within the 1 0 organization of Monsanto regarding any potential 1 1 harm to any element in the environment? 12 MR. MALIN: I object to the form of 13 the question. I am going to let you answer 14 that. But these questions are way outside 1 5 the scope and whether or not this witness is 16 capable of answering these questions is 17 highly questionable to begin with, but, in 18 any event, if you have some understanding, 19 I'm going to permit you to answer the 2 0 question. 21 MS. DUGGIN: On behalf of General . 2 2 Electric, let me just state for the record 2 3 that I am going to object to that whole 2 4 series of questions on decisions regarding 2 5 the manufacture of PCBs, and I will not WISE HATCHER DIMTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048086 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 73 2 reiterate that objection, if we can 3 understand it goes to the entire series of 4 questions. 5 MR. COHEN: You want to answer the 6 last question? 7 THE WITNESS: May I have it read 8 back or restated? 9 MR. COHEN: Sure. 10 I am not even sure we got finished 11 the question before the objection was 12 interpos ed. 13 (The pending question was read.) 14 BY MR. COHEN: 1 5 Q. And I am speaking at the time period 16 when the products was withdrawn from manufacture. 17 MR. MALIN: I'm objecting to the . 18 form of the question. If you think you can 19 summarize the belief, I'll permit you to 2 0 answer that question. 2 1 THE WITNESS: I don't think I can 2 2 speak for corporate Monsanto. 2 3 If you want me to answer it as a 2 4 scientist at Monsanto, individually, I can 2 5 make some attempt to do that. WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048087 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D 2 BY MR. COHEN: 79 3 Q. I would like you to tell me what you 4 knew at that time regarding the views being 5 addressed inside the company, whether in published 6 documentation or in any other way regarding that 7 particular issue? 8 A. Okay, my understanding would be that 9 based on literature reports, on potential effects 10 of PCBs, as well as other chlorinated compounds in 11 the environment, that such materials should not be I 12 discharged into the environment and that Monsanto 1 3 felt that they should limit the sale of PCB 14 materials to uses which should not result in 15 environmental discharge. They did that in the 16 1971, '72 time period. 17 And further felt that because of i 1 8 things being reported in the literature that when 1 9 suitable replacements were available, they should 2 0 cease manufacture, which they did in 1977, with 2 1 regard to -- I'm sorry the '72 -- '72 to 1977 time 2 2 frame, my answers are with -relationship to uses as 23 2 4 Q. And that's because no other product 2 5 was being manufactured subsequent to 1972 WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048088 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 80 2 containing PCBs other than fluids? 3 A. That's 4 Q. What other chlorinated compounds in 5 the environment were you referring to just in your 6 last answer? 7 . y, chlorinated 8 such as DDT 9 Q. When you were doing PCDF analyses, 10 were you only doing that on new products? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. So you never had the occasion to do 13 PCDF analyses on products that had already been 1 4 used for its intended purpose as a 15 fluid? 1 6 A. I did not, no. 17 Q. Are you aware of work that has been 18 done analyzed using dielectric fluid for the 19 presence of PCDFs? 2 0 A. Yes, lam. 2 1 Q. Was that work being done inside 2 2 Monsanto as well as outside Monsanto? 2 3 A. No, it was not. 2 4 Q. Where was it being done? 2 5 A. There were a variety of groups doing WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048089 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 31 2 it. There is one or two reports out of Great 3 Britain. There was some work done in Canada. 4 And the biggest project was done 5 under the auspices of EPRI, which is based in 6 California. 7 Q. Who is that EPRI? 8 A. EPRI is the Electric Power Research 9 Institute, I believe, which is a research 10 organization for the electrical utility industry. 11 Q. And when was that done, sir? 12 A. In the mid-1980s, is my 13 14 Q. So what you are saying is that, to 1 5 your knowledge, at no time did Monsanto do 16 analysis of used dielectric fluids for PCDF 17 or PCDF presence? 18 A. A qualification: Neither 19 nor quantitative analysis, that is 20 2 1 Q. what do you understand from the 2 2 is the qualitative and quantitative 2 3 analysis of used dielectric fluids with respect to 2 4 PCDF? 2 5 MR. MALIN: I object to the form of WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048090 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 82 2 the question. If you think you can answer 3 that question as stated, try and answer it. 4 THE WITNESS: My understanding of 5 the literature is that the levels of PCDFs 6 are not increased during use as dielectric 7 fluids in electrical equipment. 8 BY MR. COHEN: 9 Q. Is that in normal use? 10 MR. MALIN: I object to the form of 1 1 the question. 12 I don't know -- how are you supposed 1 3 to know. If you think you can answer that 14 question from any of the literature, go 1 5 ahead. 1 6 THE WITNESS:. That is included, yes. 17 BY MR. COHEN: 18 Q. What about from heat cycle? 1 9 Anything in the literature regarding any change in 2 0 either the quantitative or qualitative properties 2 1 of the die.l. ectric fluid as a result of heat cycle? 2 2 MR. MALIN: I- am going object to the 2 3 form of the question. I'm not sure you can 2 4 define what heat cycling is. If you think 2 5 you know what is heat cycling is based on WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048091 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 33 2 your review of the literature, you answer 3 the question. 4 THE WITNESS: I would like to hear 5 more clearly defined what you mean by heat 6 cycle. 7 BY MR. COHEN: 8 Q. Exposing the substance to increases 9 in temperature for a period of time then reducing 10 the temperature again, increasing it again? 1 1 A. I don't know that that specifically 12 has been addressed, no. 13 Could I clarify myprevious answer? 1 4 Q . Sure. 15 A. It ismy understanding that during 16 normal use, electrical transformers, for instance, 17 go through some home heat, they do tend to run hot 13 when they are heavy loaded and cooler when they're 1 9 not. I would consider that normal. 2 0 My answer would be under this kind 2 1 of application, there are no changes in the . 2 2 dibenzofurans levels in the fluids. 2 3 Q. Do you know if EPRI has published 2 4 their work? 2 5 A. Yes, they have. WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048092 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 84 2 Q. And do you know where it is to be 3 found ? 4 A. It is available as a report' from 5 E PR I . 6 Q Do you have a copy? 7 A . Yes, I do. 8 MR. COHEN: Mr. Ma1in, I am going to 9 make a request that the witness supply you 1 0 with a copy of the EPRI report and that you 11 supp1y it to us. 12 MR. MALIN: Well, let's be a little 1 3 more specific. Is there a date on tliat 1 4 report? 1 5 MR. COHEN: Let's ask the witness. 16 He said in the mid-'80s 17 COHEN: 18 Q Tell me to the best of your ability. 19 pin down for me, if you can, the EPRI report that 2 0 you are referring to? 2 1 A. I mean, I know what I am referring 2 2 to. I don't know the specific number. I think it 2 3 was 1985. I don't know the specific report 2 4 number. I mean, I have in mind what I am talking 2 5 about. That's about the best as I can do ns I sit WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048093 1 2 here . ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 35 3 Q If I said would you get a copy out 4 for me, can you go someplace and find it and get 5 copy out, I assume? 6 A . Yes, I could. 7 Q Then you could supply it to Mr. 8 Malin; is that correct? 9 A. Yes, I could. 1 0 MR. MALIN: We'll take the request 11 under advisement. 12 BY MR. COHEN: 1 3 Q. Are you familiar with the work that 14 was published that the Environmental Prospectus, 15 Volume 60, regarding the formation of 16 polychlorinated dibenzofurans and dioxins during 17 certain circumstances published by Hutzinger, . 18 Choudhry and others? . 19 A. Could I see a copy of the paper, 2 0 please? I mean, the answer is probably yes, but 2 1 would like to see what I am answering yes to. 2 2 MR. COHEN: Let the record reflect 2 3 that I am showing the witness a copy of a 2 4 document that has previously been marked in 2 5 a related litigation as part of the WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048094 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph . D. 86 2 appendices as A0009437 through 9443. 3 MS. DUGGIN: You said related 4 litigation. Is that the Federal litigation? 5 MR. COHEN: I think you know where 6 it was produced. 7 MS. DUGGIN: No, I don't. That's 8 why I am asking you the question. Would you 9 be kind enough to tell me. 10 MR. COHEN: It was part of the 11 appendix in the matter before the Third 12 Circuit Court of Appeals. 13 MS. DUGGIN: Thank you. 14 THE WITNESS: I'm generally familiar 15 with that paper, yes. 1 6 BY MR. COHEN: 17 Q 18 paper? Do you know the conclusions of the 19 A. Not as I sit here. 2 0 I know generally what those authors 2 1 have said in other context. 2 2 Q. Why don't you tell us what they have 2 3 said in other context? 2 4 A. I believe basically that the thrust 2 5 of that paper is that PCDFs can be produced as WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048095 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 37 2 products of incomplete combustion of PCBs in fire 3 situations. 4 Q. Are you familiar with the 5 temperature that is most likely to yield PCDF 6 production from PCBs, temperature range? 7 A. Yes, lam. 8 Q. And what is it? 9 A. It is a temperature range of one or 1 0 200 degrees centigrade or Celsius centered about 1 1 600 to 650 degrees Celsius. 12 That is the temperature range that 1 3 has been reported in the literature. 1 4 MR. COHEN: Why don't we mark this 1 5 then as Kaley-2. 16 17 (Document marked as Kaley Exhibit 2 18 19 2 0 BY MR. COHEN: 2 1 Q. Do you know whattemperature inthat 2 2 range is most likely to produce PCDF production 2 3 from PCB fluids? 2 4 MR. MALIN: I assume you're asking 2 5 him what he knows from it based upon his WISE HATCHER D1NTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048096 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 88 2 reading of the literature because that's all 3 he said. 4 MR. COHEN: Well -- 5 BY MR. COHEN: 6 Q. You did not do any independent 7 testing to see what temperatures produced PCDFs 8 from PCBs, did you? 9 MR. MALIN: Far afield from that 1 0 permitted under discovery. I'm going to 11 permit you to answer the guestion. 1 2 MR. COHEN: I don't think it is. 1 3 We're going to pin it down a little further. 14 BY MR. COHEN: 15 Q. Did you do any independent testing 16 to see what would produce PCDFs from PCB fluids? 17 A . N o . 18 Q. Do you know if Monsanto has ever 19 done any testing of that type? 2 0 A. Not to my knowledge. 2 1 I would like to make a clarification 2 2 of that, because there is a paper in the 2 3 literature by Monsanto scientists using pure PCB 2 4 congeners to generate standard pure PCDF congeners 2 5 from PCBs. WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048097 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 89 2 And heat is involved in that 3 process, too, so to the extent that Monsanto's 4 scientists used PCBs to generate PCDF standards, 5 yes, Monsanto did that work. But with regard to 6 the particular subject of that paper, Monsanto has 7 not done any work. 8 Q. Do you know who the authors of that 9 research were? 1 0 A. Certainly Fred Hileman is an author 11 of that paper. I don't recall the others. 12 Q. And do you know where that paper is 13 found ? 14 A. I don't recall the journal. 15 Q. Do you have a copy of the paper? 16 A. Yes. . 17 Q. If I were to ask you to get one, 18 could you get one; obviously not today? 19 A. Under those terms, yes, I could. 2 0 Q. And could you produce it to Mr. 2 1 Ma1in ? 22 A. Yes, I could.- 2 3 MR. COHEN: Then I will make a 2 4 request, Mr. Malin, for a copy of Mr. 2 5 Hileman and others' paper regarding the WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048098 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 90 2 production of pure PCDF congeners from pure 3 PCB congeners. 4 Getting it now for me? 5 MR. MALIN: I don't know. 6 BY MR. COHEN: 7 Q. Let me ask you this, Dr. Kaley. 8 Are you familiar with the actual 9 circumstances of uses of mobile units, rail cars 1 0 and the cycles that the transformers on those cars 1 1 will go through? 12 A. No, I'mnot. 1 3 Q. Do you know if anybody in Monsanto 14 has ever done any work to study how mobile unit 15 rail cars are operated and their circumstances of 16 operation? 17 A. I do n o t know. 18 Q. Does Monsanto have a department 19 where they get information back from the field on 2 0 the performance of their products? 2 1 MR. MALIN: I object to the form of 2 2 the question. That question is entirely too 2 3 broad. 2 4 BY MR. COHEN: 2 5 Q. Let's break it down to the product WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048099 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 91 2 3 MR. MALIN: What time frame are you 4 talking about? 5 MR. COHEN: Well, obviously, during 6 the time frame when you were making the 7 products. 8 THE WITNESS: I don't know if there 9 was a specific department for that purpose. 10 No, not to my knowledge. 11 BY MR. COHEN: 12 Q. Do you know if there is any 13 repository or record that Monsanto had where 14 reports from the customers came back indicating 15 the performance of the dielectric fluid? 1 6 A. No, Idonot. 17 Q. Do you know if Monsanto had any . 18 source of information prior to 1977 regarding the 19 actual circumstances of use of mobile unit rail 2 0 cars ? 2 1 A. I don't understand what you mean by 22 source of information. . 2 3 Q. Well, did they have reports given to 2 4 them or prepared by them? 2 5 Did they have any? WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUS1LOW WATER PCB-00048100 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 2 A . I haven't -- 92 3 Q Scientific data of any type? 4 A . I do not know. 5 Q Do you know what happened at the S Paoli Rail Yard? 7 MR. MALIN: I object to the form of 8 the question. It is entirely too broad. I i i 9 MR. COHEN: Okay. 10 BY MR. COHEN: 11 0. 12 Yard is? 13 A . 14 Q 15 A. Do you know where the Paoli Rail Genera 1ly. Have you been there? No, I have not. j I ! 16 Q So you have never seen the facility? 17 A. That's correct. - 18 Q Have you seen photographs of it? 19 A . I do not believe I have. 2 0 Q Maps? 2 1 A . I don't have a specific 2 2 r ec o but it is pos.sible I have seen a map 2 3 or a diagram or something. 2 4 Q All right. 2 5 I was going to ask you next. WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048101 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 93 2 Drawings or diagrams? 3 A. It is possible; I don't specifically 4 recall having seen any. 5 Q Do you know what buildings there are 6 there? 7 A . No, I don't. 8 Q Do you know what the facility was 9 used for? 1 0 A . I believe I have some understanding 1 1 of that. 1 2 Q. From what source? 1 3 A. Either discussions with attorneys or 14 possibly some documents I have read. I don't 1 5 know. 1 6 Q. Do you know what went on at the 17 Paoli Rail Yard during any period of time with 13 respect to PCB fluids? 19 A. Not specifically, no. 2 0 Q. Do you know if rail cars were even 2 1 in the Paoli Rail Yard? 2 2 A. I mean I suppose; I do not know that 2 3 specifically, no. 2 4 Q. It would be an assumption? 2 5 A. It would, but I would consider it to WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048102 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 94 2 be a safe assumption, but I can't say that I 3 specifically know that, no. 4 Q. Is General Electric Company a 5 customer of Monsanto? 6 MR . MALIN: Currently? Do you want 7 to know if they are currently a customer? 8 MR . COHEN: Let's back up. Mr. 9 Malin makes a good : n 1 0 BY MR. COHEN: 11 Q. Prior to 1977, was General Electr 12 Company a customer for dielectric fluids of the 13 Monsanto Company? 14 A . Yes, they were. 15 Q Do you know what General 16 Company used dielectric fluid for? 17 A . In general terms. 18 Q Tell me in' general terms? 19 A . For dielectric fluids in 2 0 trans formers and capacitors. 2 1 Q What types of transformers? 2 2 A . Bumping up against my knowledge 2 3 don't know. 2 4 Q We have reached the sides of the 2 5 envelopes? WISE HATCHER DIMTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048103 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D 95 2 A. Transformers for which 3 non-flammable, flame retardant, dielectric fluids 4 were deemed to be important or necessary. 5 Q. Would they have been fixed-1 ocation 6 transformers, to your knowledge? 7 A. I don't know. I don't know for 8 sure, specifically. 9 Q. Prior to 1977, was Westinghouse a 10 customer of Monsanto Company for 11 fluids? 12 A . Yes. 13 Q Do you know what they used 14 dielectric fluids for? 15 A . In the same general terms, yes. IS Q And for the same general purposes as 17 GE? 18 A. That's my understanding. 19 Q. Was the Budd Company a customer of 2 0 Monsanto Company? 2 1 A . I don't know. 2 2 Q Do you know who the Budd Company is? 2 3 A . I believe I do, yes. 2 4 Q Are you aware of the product th at 2 5 they manufactured prior to 1977? WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048104 1 ROBERT C-. KALEY, II, Ph . D . 96 2 A. My understanding would be that I 3 thought they made rail cars. If that's correct, 4 then, yes, I am. If that's not correct, then, no 5 I don't. 6 Q Do you know if GE manufactured rail 7 cars prior to 19 7 7 ? 8 A . I don't know. 9 Q Do you know who the plaintiffs are 1 0 in this case? 1 1 MR. MALIN: I don't think you know 12 that . 1 3 THE WITNESS: Specifically, no. 1 4 I mean I think I know what some 1 5 classifications are of the people who are 1 6 plaintiffs in this litigation, yes. 17 BY MR. COHEN: 13 Q. Tell me the classifications you 19 know? 2 0 A. I believe there are some people who 2 1 work at that rail yard, and I believe there are 2 2 some people who are residents in the areas near 2 3 the rail yard. 2 4 Q. Do you know what these people who 2 5 work in the rail yard are alleged to have done in WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048105 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph . D . 97 2 the course of their employment? 3 A. I don't believe I do specifically, 4 no . 5 Q. Do you know with respect to these 6 people who worked in the rail yard what, if any, 7 contact they would have had with products 8 containing PCBs? 9 A. Not specifically, no. 1 0 Q. Do you know if Monsanto Company sold 11 dielectric fluids containing PCBs for use in the 12 Paoli Rail Yard? 13 A. ' Not specifically, no. 14 Q. Do you know what dielectric fluids 15 were used in the Paoli Rail Yard? IS A. I believe I have an understanding of 17 that. 18 Q. From whom? 19 A. Counsel. 2 0 Q. Okay. What's your understanding of 2 1 what dielectric fluids were used in the Paoli 2 2 yard? 2 3 A. Some of the dielectric fluids were 2 4 PCD containing dielectric fluids. 2 5 I don't know that all of them WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048106 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 2 contained PCBs or had a percentage. 3 Q. Do you know whether they were 4 Monsanto products? 5 A. I don't know specifically. That 6 would be a safe assumption. 7 Q. Do you know if the General 8 dielectric fluid sold and used prior to 1977 9 contained Monsanto products? 10 A. I know that some of their dielectric 11 fluids, PCB-containing fluids contained Monsanto's 1 2 product. I don't know that I know that all of it 1 3 did. 14 Q Do you know the make-up of General 1 5 i i dectric fluid? 16 A . Which fluid? I have -- 1 7 Q What is Pyranol? 1 8 A . Pyranol is- GE's trademark for a 19 series of flame retardant dielectric fluids. 2 0 Q. Do you know any of the product specs 2 1 for any of those GE trademark fluids? 2 2 A . Not as I sit -here, no. 2 3 Q Do you know if Westinghouse sold the 2 4 fluid that contained products 2 5 manufactured by Monsanto? WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048107 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 99 2 A. It is my understanding that they 3 did, yes . 4 Q. Do you know what name it was sold 5 under? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. What? 8 A. Inerteen, I believe. 9 Q. Do you know the product specs of 1 0 Inerteen? 11 A. Well, again, Inerteen is a trade 1 2 name for a series of fluids; that is my 13 understanding. 14 Q. Do you know what other product was 1 5 used and mixed, as I'm sure counsel would say, 1 6 with Aroclor to produce Py.ranol? 17 A. I say it depends on the Pyranol. 18 Q. When you said you didn't know the 19 product specs of these products as you state here 2 0 does that mean that you may have these product 2 1 specs available to you back in your office? 2 2 A. No. I have seen spec sheets but I 2 3 don't have them in my office. I don't even know 2 4 where I would have seen them, probably. 2 5 Q. Would you have occasion, during the WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048108 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 10 0 2 course of your employment, to regularly deal with 3 the product specifications for either the GE or 4 the Westinghouse products? 5 A . No . 6 Q. Do you know whether Pyranol was used 7 at the Paoli Rail Yard? 8 A. Not specifically, no. 9 Q. Do you know if Inerteen was used at 1 0 the Paoli Rail Yard? 1 1 A. Not specifically, no. 1 2 Q. Let me show you a document, sir, 1 3 that has been produced in this litigation and has 14 been marked as GE P000 654655, 656, 7 and 8. 1 5 I ask you first to look at the 1 6 document. 17 (Pause.) 1 8 BY MR. COHEN: 1 9 Q. Have you had a chance to look at the 2 0 document, sir? 2 1 A. I have looked at the document. I 2 2 have not read it in detail.- 2 3 MR. COHEN: For identification, why 2 4 don't we mark it as Exhibit 3. 25 WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048109 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 10 1 2 (Document marked as Kaley Exhibit 3 3 for 4 5 BY MR. COHEN: 6 Q. Is there any indication on that 7 document, sir, that Monsanto's product is involved 8 in that GE product? 9 A. Yes, there is . 1 0 Q. What is the indication? 11 A. At the top of the first page of 12 Exhibit 654, there is an indication that 1242, 13 1254 and 1260 were Aroclor PCB mixtures. Monsanto 14 Chemical is the name after it, probably indicating 1 5 the manufacturer. 16 Q. . And you recognize those numbers 17 1254, 1242, 1260, whatever it is, that they have 18 there? 19 A. Yes, Ido. 2 0 Q. What are those numbers? 2 1 A. Those are specific products, the 2 2 designations in the Aroclor product line. 2 3 Q. To your knowledge, is that 2 4 combination of numbers 1248, 1254 and 1260 a 2 5 series of numbers over which Monsanto Company has WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048110 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 2 any proprietary rights? 3 A. It is 1242 rather than 1248. 4 Q. Whatever they are. 102 | ! ! i ! j j 5 A. Yes, I understand. 6 MR. MALIN: I object to the form of 7 the question. How is he supposed to know 8 whether they have proprietary rights? 9 Look, if you think you know... 10 THE WITNESS: I was going to say I i 11 think we've got proprietary rights to the 12 trademark Aroclor, so that to the extent 1 3 something says Aroclor 1242, I would think 14 we would have proprietary rights to that. I 15 don't think we have any rights to the 16 numbers themselves. . 17 BY MR. COHEN: 18 Q. Does that sheet indicate product i! i i i 1 19 specification for any General Electric product? : 2 0 A. That would be my presumption. 2 1 MR. MALIN: I object to the 2 2 question. It speaks .for itself. You're 2 3 asking him to characterize a document that 2 4 he has never seen before and it is somebody 2 5 else's document. WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048111 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. . 103 2 But . . . 3 MR. COHEN: You're right. That's 4 what I asked. He said what he said. 5 BY MR. COHEN: 6 Q. Have you ever seen similar documents 7 indicating product specifications of GE's product, 8 dielectric fluid? 9 MR. MALIN: I object to the form of 1 0 that question. If you think you can answer 11 that question... 12 THE WITNESS: Not that I recall. 13 BY MR. COHEN: 1 4 Q. How about Westinghouse ' s product? 1 5 MR. MALIN: Same objection. 1 6 THE WITNESS:. Same answer. Not that 1 7 I r e c a 11 . - 1 8 BY MR. COHEN: . 19 Q. Did anyone ever report, to your 2 0 knowledge, to Monsanto Company that dielectric 2 1 fluids used in mobile unit rail car transformers 2 2 were frequently exposed to - power surges, for 2 3 example? 2 4 A. Not to my knowledge. 2 5 Q. Did anyone ever report that they WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048112 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph . D . 2 were exposed to heat cycles? 104 3 A. Not to my knowledge. 4 Q. Did anyone, to your knowledge, ever 5 report to Monsanto Corporation and Company, 6 whatever it is, the fact that the dielectric fluid 7 when extractd from transformers on mobile unit 8 rail cars was black? 9 A. Not to my knowledge. 10 Q. Do you know if anyone within 11 Monsanto Company ever had reports of analyses of 12 used dielectric fluid extracted from mobile unit 13 rail cars? 14 A. Not to my knowledge. 15 Q. Do you know if Monsanto Company has 16 ever, either done analyses- of used dielectric 17 fluid from mobile unit rail cars or received 18 analyses for quantification of PCDFs from used 19 fluids? 2 0 MR. MALIN: I will object to the 2 1 form of the question for a number of 2 2 reasons . 2 3 First, he's talked about what he 2 4 read in the literature. Is that what you 2 5 mean, or do you mean received analyses from WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048113 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 2 someone? 10 5 3 MR. COHEN: I'm not speaking of 4 published literature. 5 MR. MALIN: So, you canlimit your 6 question to nonpublished literature or 7 reports that would have been received from 8 any source nonpublished, not publicly 9 available. 1 0 Is that fair? 11 MR. COHEN: Sure. 12 THE WITNESS: Not to my knowledge. 1 3 BY MR. COHEN: 14 Q. Just so we're clear, since Mr. Malin 15 made an interjection or addition to the question. 16 ------------------------------ Monsanto Company, to your knowledge, 1 7 has never done an analysis of their own of used 1 8 dielectric fluid from mobile unit rail cars in 19 order to determine the presence and quantity of 2 0 PCDFs; is that right? 2 1 A. That's correct. That's my 2 2 understanding. ' 2 3 Q. To your knowledge, has Monsanto 2 4 Company done any analysis of environmental samples 2 5 taken from the area of the Paoli Rail Yard? WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048114 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 2 A. Not to my knowledge. 10 6 3 Q. Have they received reports of 4 analyses of environmental samples taken from the 5 area of the Paoli Rail Yard? 6 MR. MALI II: Again, I am going to 7 object. If you mean publicly available or 8 nonpublicly available. Obviously, there are 9 EPA reports. 10 MR. COHEN: Well, have they received 11 the EPA reports? 1 2 MR. MALIN: Which you have. 13 THE WITNESS: Certainly some 14 reports, yes. 1 5 BY MR. COHEN: 16 Q. Do you know if Monsanto Compa ny o r 17 anybody within Monsanto Company has made any 18 attempt to determine whether the PCBs identified 19 in the environmental samples from the area of the 2 0 Paoli Rail Yard were from Monsanto's product? 2 1 MR. MALIN: I am going object to the 2 2 form. You mean solely, based upon an 2 3 analysis rather than marketing assumptions? 2 4 MR. COHEN: I would like to have the 2 5 answer based upon analysis. We can talk WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048115 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 10 7 2 about marketing assumptions later. 3 MR. MALIN: But you're really 4 talking about those. Go ahead, you can 5 answer that question. 6 THE WITNESS: Can I have the 7 question read back or can you restate it? 8 MR. COHEN: I doubt I can, but we 9 can try. 1 0 MR. COHEN: Why don't you read it 11 back . 12 (The pending question was read 1 3 back.) 14 THE WITNESS: To my knowledge, no. 15 BY MR. COHEN: 16 Q. Now, f ro-nv---the--st a-ndp-o in t of 17 marketing analysis, have any assumptions been 18 made, to your knowledge? 1 9 MR. MALIN: I will object to him 2 0 being asked that question. 2 1 And I will object to the form of the 2 2 question to extent that you are asking him 2 3 whether or not Monsanto Company has made 2 4 those marketing assumptions. He's not here 2 5 for that. That's far beyond the scope of WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048116 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 108 2 the order. 3 I am going to direct him not to 4 answer that. And that really is not an 5 answerable question by that witness, anyway. 6 BY MR. COHEN: 7 Q. Do you know what percentage of the 8 fluid sold in the United States 9 between, say, 1970 and 1977, contained product 1 0 manufactured by Monsanto Company? I 11 A . No . 12 Q. Do you know of any other company 13 that marketed more than 1 percent of the total 14 dielectric fluid sold in the United States during 1 5 that time period? 16 MR. MALIN: Well, again, that is not 17 why that witness is here. You're asking him 18 to - - ' 1 9 MR. COHEN: I asked him a question: 2 0 If he knew. If he doesn't know, he doesn't 2 1 know. 2 2 MR. MALIN: I' am going to let him 2 3 answer. 2 4 MR. COHEN: We're trying to get to 2 5 the issue of the nature and knowledge of the WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048117 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 109 2 chemical makeup of PCB fluids. 3 MR. MALIN: Of course -- 4 MR. COHEN: If he can identify whose 5 PCBs fluid - 6 MR. MALIN: -- I don't see how he 7 can answer anymore questions. 8 THE WITNESS: Are you speaking of 9 PCB-containing dielectric fluids? 10 BY MR. COHEN: 1 1 Q. Yes, sir. If I didn't say that, I 12 meant to say that. You will have to forgive me. 1 3 A. I do not specifically know of any 14 other company that met the criteria of your 15 question, as I understood it. IS Q. That is that sold dielectric fluid 17 containing PCBs and sold product sufficient to 18 amount to more than 1 percent of the product sold 19 in that country? 2 0 A. I don't know whether anybody did or 2 1 did not. 2 2 MR. MALIN: My objection is I don't 2 3 know how this witness would know. There is 2 4 no foundation to indicate that he would have 2 5 any knowledge in that area whatsoever. WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048118 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph . D . HO 2 MR. KOHN: Excuse us for 30 seconds. 3 (Pause. ) 4 BY MR. COHEN: 5 Q. We talked somewhat earlier, sir, 6 about your having, or your group having done five 7 or six PCDF tests during a six- or seven-year 8 period; do you recall that? 9 A . Yes. 1 0 Q. Let me show you a document that has 11 been previously marked in this litigation, but we 1 2 will mark today for identification but it has been 1 3 previously marked with the letter A0009346 through 14 9351; also marked PRR 004369 through 371 and 1 5 4277 -- 4278 and 79. 1 6 Do you recognize the document? 17 13 (Documents were marked for 19 identification as Kaley Exhibit 4.) 20 21 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. What was 22 the question? 2 3 BY MR. COHEN: 2 4 Q. Do you recognize it? 2 5 A. Not specifically, no. WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048119 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 111 2 Q Is there anything you can tell me 3 about these documents ? 4 A . No . 5 Q Okay 6 MR . COX : Will that have a Ka1e y 7 exhibit? 8 MR . COHEN : Yes, that's K - 4 .. 9 BY MR . COHEN: 10 Q You told me in 1975 you went into 1 1 group called Spectroscopy, and you were doing 12 different types of analyses in that time period, 13 1975 through 1978 -- mass spectrometry on a 14 variety of products? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. Did any of those products contain 17 PCBs or PCDFs other than the dielectric fluid? 18 A. Yes. _ 19 Q. What were they? 2 0 A. The pentachlorophenol product line 2 1 certainly contained PCDFs. 2 2 Q That 1's P-H-E-'N-O-L? 2 3 A . That 11 s correct. 2 4 Q What else? 2 5 A . That 1's all that I recall WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048120 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D 112 2 3 Q. And you were in the Spectroscopy 4 group, I believe, for approximately three years? 5 A. That would be about right, yes. S Q. And was that all spent doing mass 7 spectrometry on a variety of products? 8 A. In general, the answer is yes. 9 You know, I may have done a few 10 other things along the way, but in general, that 11 is the correct answer. 12 Q. And the totality of PCDF tests 1 3 regarding dielectric fluids containing PCB was 14 five or six? 1 5 A . That 1s my 1 S Q During that time period? 17 A . Something like that, yes 18 Q. 1978 you became a group leader in 1 9 the Environmental Analysis Section? 2 0 A. That's correct. 2 1 Q. And what were your duties then? 2 2 A. Primarily to - supervise a group of 2 3 other analytical chemists that were doing a 2 4 variety of analyses on environmenta1-type samples 2 5 Q. What types of analyses? WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048121 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 113 2 A. All types. There was gas 3 chromatography and liquid chromatography, mass 4 spectrometry,, wet chemistry, electrochemistry; a 5 whole variety of techniques. 6 Q. What were you looking for, 7 specifically? 8 A. I mean, the answer to that is too 9 broad to take our time with. 10 We were responsible for 11 environmental analysis of the entire product line 1 2 of Monsanto Industrial Chemical Company. So it 1 3 was a whole range of products. 1 4 Q. Some of those products include 1 5 dielectric fluids containing PCBs? 1 6 A. That time frame I would say the 17 answer to that is no. 18 Q. So from 1978 to '81, you were not 1 9 doing analyses of environmental samples looking 2 0 for the presence of PCBs from dielectric fluid 2 1 product ? 2 2 A. I was doing some samples involving 2 3 looking for the presence of PCBs. Whether it was 2 4 from dielectric fluids, I don't know, and it was 2 5 not specifically targeted at dielectric fluids. WISE HATCHER DIMTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048122 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 114 2 Q. But you were doing some analyses 3 looking for the presence of PCBs? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q 6 also Was that strictly l v e or 7 A. Both. 8 To the extent you can do the 9 qualitative analysis under the restrictions I have 10 noted before. 11 Q. And that was the same type of 1 2 qualitative analysis we discussed earlier; that 1 3 is, to try to identify if it was? 14 A. Right. 15 Q. From Monsanto product? 16 A. Although at this time wemoved, 17 though. 18 Not specifically to identify whether 19 it was from Monsanto product. 2 0 I don't think there is any way to do 2 1 that . 2 2 But, rather to tell what degree of 2 3 chlorination the materials contained in that 2 4 general time frame, we began moving away from 2 5 doing analyses identifying materials as Monsanto WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048123 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 115 2 Aroclor product and moved towards identifying 3 products by their degree of chlorination, not 4 products, but residues. 5 Q. Any particular reason for that 6 change? 7 Can you tell us about it? 8 A. Well, Nnumber one, when you're doing 9 the analysis by mass spectrometry, that is the 1 0 more natural kind of information you get out of 1 1 the mass spectrometry. 12 Secondly, many of the analyses that 13 we were doing during that time period were for 14 PCBs that weren't necessarily from our prior 15 product line. 16 Q. What would they have been from then? 17 A. Some of them certainly. What it was 18 known as was an inadvertent generation of PCBs in 19 other chemical processes. 2 0 Q. That is the creation of PCBs 2 1 unintentionally in the creation of another 2 2 product? ' 2 3 A. That's correct. 2 4 Q. Would that have been just with 2 5 respect to products produced by Monsanto or by WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048124 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D 2 anyone? 116 3 A . We were just doing products by 4 Monsanto. 5 Q. And did you determine that there was 6 the presence of PCBs as a result of, as you called 7 it, inadvertent generation? 3 A. Occasionally, yes. 9 Q. Did the results of the studies that 10 you produced indicate that the PCBs that were 11 found as a result of inadvertent generation, that 12 the results would have been similar to the results 1 3 that you found in the environmental specimens of 14 product containing PCBs from dielectric fluids? 15 A. Similar in what respect? 1 6 Q. Well, that they were difficult to 17 identify from which category they came? 18 A. Well, they did not come from product 19 category because they weren't generating those 2 0 products. So to that -- I mean - 2 1 0. I guess what I am trying to ask you 2 2 is how did you know they were from inadvertent 2 3 rather than from contamination of 2 4 ic fluids? 2 5 A. Because they typically did not have WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048125 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 117 2 Monsanto product-type distribution of the PCB 3 congeners. 4 Q. What type of distribution of 5 congeners did they have; can you describe? 6 A. It depended on the product. 7 Q. Did these samples from inadvertent 8 generations bear a resemblance to what you had 9 discussed earlier as being the type of 1 0 distribution you would find from the product that 1 1 had been allowed to be exposed to the environment? 12 A. In general, no. 13 Q. Do you recognize the term 14 "weathering"? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What does weathering mean? 17 A. Weathering is a term used to 1 8 describe the effect of being out in the 19 environment or being out in the weather has on a 2 0 particular chemical. 2 1 Q. And would it be fair to say that 2 2 samples of environmental samples that contained 2 3 PCBs frequently show the effects of weathering? 2 4 A. Yes. 2 5 Q. And as I understand it, this WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048126 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 113 2 analysis of samples containing products from 3 inadvertent generations did not produce results 4 that looked like weathered product sample and 5 environmental samples? 6 A. In general, that is true, yes. 7 Q. And the results of that analysis of 8 the inadvertent-generated product was also 9 different than the product that you could identify 1 0 as being Monsanto-manufactured product; is that 11 correct? 12 A. As I understand your question, yes. 1 3 Q. Did you ever publish your results? 1 4 MR. MALIN: Objection to the form. 1 5 Publish the results of what? 1 6 MR. COHEN: The study of inadvertent 17 generation . 18 THE WITNESS: Portions of it, yes. 19 BY MR. COHEN: 2 0 Q. Can you tell me where it is found if 2 1 I look on your CV? 2 2 A. It is in the'EPA report, probably 2 3 the last, maybe even the last entry. 2 4 Q. "Exposure Studies Relating to 2 5 Industrial Processes Containing Incidental PCB"? WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048127 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, 11, Ph.D 2 A . Yes. 119 3 That was a pubJ ication of a joint 4 CM A committee that I was involved in looking at 5 the guestion we 1 re discussing. 6 Q If I wanted to get that article, 7 where would I go? 8 A. To the EPA. It is available from 9 the National Technical Information Services. 10 Q. Do you have a copyof that article 1 1 A. Yes, Ido. 12 Q. So, if I were toask you to get it 1 3 you could get it and put your hands on it pretty 14 readily and produce it to counsel? 1 5 A. Yes, I could. 16 MR. COHEN: Counsel, I will make a- 17 request for the publication we've just 13 referred to, Exposure Studies, et cetera. 19 MR. MALIN: Take it under 2 0 advisement. 2 1 BY MR. COHEN: 2 2 Q That was published in 1982, sir? 2 3 A . If that's what it says on that 2 4 paper. 2 5 I don't recall, specifically. WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048128 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 120 2 MR. MALIN: That's what it says. 3 BY MR. COHEN: 4 Q. Testing your memory, sir. 5 A. Okay. 6 I believe that the May 12-13, 1932 7 date is the date of the actual conference. 8 Judging from the NTIS PB84 designation on the 9 report number, I would think it was published in 1 0 198 4 . 11 Q. Did you present it at the conference 12 or symposium that's referred to in 1982? 1 3 A. I did not present the paper, no. 14 Q. Were there other authors along with 15 yourself? 16 A . Yes. 17 Q One of the co-authors presented it? 18 A . That 's correct. 19 Q And who was that? 20 A . A su ctor named Kent Hodges 2 1 from Dow Chemical Company 2 2 Q Was he with Dow at the time 7 2 3 A . Yes, he was - 2 4 Q So this was a proj ect that actually 2 5 was more than just inside Monsanto? WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048129 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 121 2 A. Yes, I believe I said it was a 3 result of a CMA, Chemical Manufacturers 4 Association Joint Committee project. 5 Q. What other activities were you 6 involved in during that three-year period from '78 7 to '82 while you were supervising a group doing 8 analyses on environmental samples? 9 A. I guess I don't know what you are 1 0 looking for. 11 . I mean, you want other product lines 12 we looked at? 13 Q. Yes, what else did you do? 14 You did not spend all your time on 1 5 that inadvertent generation project, did you? 16 A . No . 17 Q. What else did you do? 18 A. With regard to PCBs or with regard 19 to everything in general? 2 0 Q. Well, first tell me everything in 2 1 general, broad scope. Then we will focus on PCBs. 2 2 A. The Monsanto 'Industrial Chemical 2 3 Company has a broad product line including 2 4 industrial chemicals and all sorts of fluid and 2 5 water treating chemicals. We did lots and lots WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048130 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 12 2 2 and lots of analyses with regard to all those 3 other product lines. 4 Q. So you were doing analyses of and on 5 of a broad product line? 6 A. A broad cut of that product line, 7 yes any time there were products for which there 3 were environmental questions that needed to be 9 answered. 10 Q What other products were you 11 involved in that dealt with PCBs? 12 A . None. 1 3 Q And was that inadvertent generation 1 4 proj ect the only other area where you were lookingI 15 for PCBs? 16 A . I don't recall 17 would have to assume that during that time period 18 we were looking at some environmental samples for 19 PCB residues. 2 0 In fact, I'm sure we were. 2 1 Q. What about from 1931 on. You became 2 2 a senior research specialist? 2 3 '81 to '85, what were your duties? 2 4 A. Well, that was in a corporate 2 5 research group, and I was basically running mass WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048131 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 12 3 2 spectrometers for corporate research. I did not 3 do any laboratory work associated with PCBs during 4 that time frame. 5 Q. And '85 to '86, what were your 6 duties? 7 A. At that point, I transferred to the 8 Environmental Policy staff and primarily was 9 involved in product stewardship for PCB products. 10 Q. What do you mean by "product 1 1 stewardship" ? 12 A. A variety of things involved from 1 3 answering phone calls that come into Monsanto with 14 regard to PCBs, working with CMA committees on PCB 15 questions, working with our plants to make sure 16 they were in compliance with PCB regulations, 17 serving as an internal resource in the company on' 18 PCB questions. 19 Q. During that tenure of employment 2 0 with Monsanto from 1973 to the present, have you 2 1 had any ongoing professional relationship with Dr. 2 2 Papageorge? ' 2 3 A. I see him occasionally. 2 4 Q. Well, was he at any time your 2 5 supervisor directly? WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048132 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 124 2 A . No. 3 Q. Did you have any reporting function 4 to Dr. Papageorge? 5 A . No. 6 Q. When is the last time, to your 7 knowledge, Dr. Papageorge was employed by 8 Monsa nto? . 9 A. He retired, I would guess, 1985; 1 0 somewhere in that time frame, anyway. 11 Q. Have you been shown any documents 12 that indicate what transformer fluid was sold for 1 3 use at the Paoli Rail Yard? 14 A. No, I have not. 15 Q. Do you know what transformer fluid 1 6 was sold for use at the Paoli Rail Yard? 17 A. Not specifically, no. 18 Q. Prior to the time that the Anniston 19 was that the Anniston plant. 2 0 A. There is an Anniston plant. 2 1 Q. Is that the one that was 2 2 manufacturing dielectric fluid at some time? 2 3 A. Around 1970, yes. 2 4 Q. And then after that, it was Sauget 2 5 only? WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048133 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 2 A. That's correct. 12 5 3 Q. Well, prior to the otherplants 4 being shut down, can you tell me what other plants 5 of Monsanto did manufacture dielectric fluids 6 containing PCBs? 7 A. In the United States? 8 Q. Yes . 9 A. None. Other than Anniston and 10 S auge t. 11 Q. Those were the only two? 12 A . That 1s correct. 13 Q What is the chemical makeup of 14 PCB-based fluid? 15 A . That depends on the particular 16 fluids. 17 Q. And you don't know what particular 18 fluids were sold for use- at the Paoli Rail Yard? 19 A. That's correct. 2 0 Q. You don't know whether any ofyour 2 1 product was sold to General Electric or 2 2 Westinghouse or, indeed, to any other company 2 3 which was later used at the Paoli Rail Yard? 2 4 A. Not specifically, no. 2 5 Q. So if I were to ask you to tell me WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048134 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 126 2 what you know about the chemical makeup of 3 PCB-based dielectric fluid and transformer fluids 4 sold for use at the Paoli Rail Yard, what would 5 you tell me? 6 MR. MALIN: Mr. Cohen, we have been 7 over that. We put that in our preliminary 3 statement in front of the judge. _ 9 We told you that what we know is 10 that we sold certain Aroclors to General 11 Electric and/or Westinghouse, and they could 12 use them anywhere in the world they wanted. 1 3 If they wanted to, they could use 1 4 any kind of Aroclors for any particular use, 1 5 but we have had what we think are safe 16 assumptions and that' is that it would have 17 been used in railroad transformers. 18 He's made those assumptions, and you 19 have shown him documents which apparently 2 0 indicate what those fluids were, based upon 2 1 General Electric's records, and he's here to 2 2 tell you what he knows about the impurities 2 3 or possible contaminants in those fluids, 2 4 and that's really all he can do for you. 2 5 MR. COHEN: This is an adverse WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048135 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 12 7 2 witness that you produced to testify with 3 knowledge of the chemical makeup of 4 PCB-based dielectric fluids and transformer 5 fluids sold for use at the Paoli Rail Yard. 6 You started off making the statement that 7 you were going to limit that deposition to 8 that inquiry. 9 This witness has just told me he 10 doesn't know what was used at the Paoli Rail 11 Yard, yet, this is the witness that you 12 produced in response to Discovery Order No. 1 3 1, Paragraph 2, subpart lower case d. 14 And I'm trying to find out what he 15 can tell me. If he has to tell me about all 16 the PCBs used that you manufactured in order 17 to answer that inquiry, then I think we . 18 better get started. 19 MR. MALIN: I think he's answered 2 0 your question more than once. 2 1 BY MR. COHEN: 2 2 Q. Let me ask you this, sir. 2 3 I have shown you a document that was 2 4 Kaley Exhibit 3, which you denied having any 2 5 specific knowledge of, but you could identify WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048136 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 12 3 2 certain Monsanto products as being shown there. 3 Do you know if that was the fluid 4 that was used at the Paoli Rail Yard? 5 A. Which fluid? 6 Q. Any of them there. There is a half 7 a dozen or more on that document. 3 A. No, Idonot. 9 Q. What was your professional 1 0 relationship with Dr. Emmett Kelly? 1 1 A. He was Medical Director of Monsanto 12 for a brief time after I joined the company. 13 I don't know that I had a 14 professional relationship with him at all. 15 Q He was not one of your supervisors? IS A . He was not. 17 Q Did you ever do any analyses of any 18 specimens whatsoever at his request? 19 A. I believe so, yes. 2 0 Q. Tell me about them. 2 1 A. I believe I did some preliminary 2 2 analyses of blood serums from the workers at the 2 3 Sauget plant that was done at his request. 2 4 MR. COX: Are they the same plant? 2 5 Sauget is also known as the other plant. WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048137 1 ROBERT G. RALEY, II, Ph.D. 12 9 2 Krummrich is the Krummrich plant. That is 3 the Sauget plant, yes. 4 BY MR. COHEN: 5 Q. You said that was serum? 6 A. My recollection is it was whole 7 blood. I don't really recall. 8 Q And this was the plant that. 9 manufactured the d ielectric fluid? 10 A . That 's correct. 11 Q Did it manufacture other PCB 12 products ? 1 3 A . Not at the time frame I was employed 14 at Monsanto, n o . 15 Q - Did you know the employees', 1 S specific employees' tenure of employment nt Sauget 17 when you were analyzing the whole blood? 18 A. I didn't even know the specific 19 emp1oyees. 2 0 Q. Well, without knowing their names, 2 1 did you know their tenure of employment? 22 A. Ididnot. ' 2 3 Q. Did you know whether the samples, 2 4 blood samples came from employees who had been at 2 5 Sauget during a time period when a product other WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048138 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 13 0 2 than dielectric fluid may have been manufactured? 3 A. I have no knowledge to that effect. 4 Q. So you can tell us nothing today 5 with respect to whether these employees could have 6 been exposed to PCBs in connection with the 1 manufacture of any other product other than 3 9 A. That is correct, I cannot. 10 Q. What were the results of your 11 analyses of these employees, can you tell me? 1 2 MS. DUGGIN: Objection. We're far 13 beyond the scope of the Discovery Order No. 14 1 . 15 MR . COHEN: I don ' t see how. 16 MR . MALIN: I would agree that we're 17 far beyond the scope of Discovery Order No. 18 1 . ' 19 MR. COHEN: How are we beyond the 2 0 scope of Discovery Order No. 1? I'm trying 2 1 to find out about the chemical makeup of 2 2 PCB-based dielectric.- 2 3 MR. MALIN: I am going to permit the 2 4 witness to answer the question. 2 5 MR. COHEN: Good. WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048139 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 131 2 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. 3 BY MR. COHEN: 4 Q. Did you publish your results? 5 A . No . 6 Q. Did you prepare a document 7 reflecting the results of your analysis? 8 A. I would assume I wrote the numbers 9 down somewhere. 10 Q. Well, we're trying to distinguish 11 between publishing, where you may have taken that 12 to mean that you went to some outside publisher 1 3 and actually had something presented for the 14 scientific community to peruse as distinguished 15 from simply making a record of the results. 1 6 A. I understand. 17 It was not published in the public 18 domain literature, no. 19 Q. But you believe you made some sort 2 0 of report of what your results were? 2 1 A. I would assume that's the case. I 2 2 don't really recall, but I -mean, I'm certainly not 2 3 carrying the numbers around in my head nor did I 2 4 at the time. 2 5 Q. Did you report them back to Dr. WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048140 1 2 Kelly? ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph . D . 13 2 3 A. I probably did not, personally. i 4 would assume they got back to him. 5 Q. Is this the only time that you did 6 any analysis of any specimen at the request of Dr. 7 Kelly? 8 A. To my recollection, yes. 9 Q. Now, as Medical Director, Dr. Kelly 10 probably had other people working at his 11 depa rtment. 1 2 Could it be that you did analyses of 13 specimens at the request of others working with or 14 for Dr. Kelly? 1 5 A. Not to myrecollection, no. 1 6 Q. So this would have been the one 17 time? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Can you give us a time frame when 2 0 this analysis was done? 2 1 A. Well, it had to beduring 1974, 22 because that was the only time our careers 2 3 overlapped . 2 4 Q. You said for a short time he was 2 5 Medical Director at Monsanto? WISE HATCHER DIMTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048141 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 13 3 2 A. No, I said while I was there. 3 Q. Yes. 4 A. He was Medical Director for a very 5 long time. 6 Q Yes. I meant for a brief time 7 during your tenure? 8 A . Yes . 9 MR. MALIN: 33 years, to be exact. 10 THE WITNESS: I believe he retired 11 in 1974. 12 BY MR. COHEN: 1 3 Q. Other than PCDFs and PCDDs, or any 14 other dioxin or dibenzofurans, did Monsanto do 15 regular quality control checks of the dielectric 1 6 fluid in order to determine the makeup of the 17 product going out the door? 18 A. I don't know the answer to that. 19 Q. Do you know if Monsanto did any 2 0 analysis of the product to determine the purity o 2 1 the product; that is, compliance with the 2 2 specifications for the product? 2 3 MR. MALIN: I object to the form of 2 4 the question, unless we know what 2 5 specifications you are talking about. WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048142 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 13 4 2 Are you talking about the customer 3 4 BY MR. COHEN: 5 Q. Well, would you agree with me, sir, 6 someone prepared a specification as to what the 7 product was to be? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Either the customer or Monsanto 10 themselves? 11 A . Yes. 12 Q. And Monsanto presumably attempted to 1 3 manufacture the product in accordance with that 14 specification, would you agree with that? 1 5 A. Yes. 16 Q. And I think,, as wediscussed 17 impurities before, it would be something that 18 deviated from the specified product; is that 19 right ? 2 0 A. Well, I don't know that 2 1 specifications specifically dealt with impurities. 2 2 They were primarily performance 23 24 25 WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048143 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 135 2 A. I would presume both. 3 Q. Both? 4 A. But that is a presumption. 5 Q. Then when you say performance based, 6 that is, the product was to do something, and that 7 was how it was specified, rather than someone 8 taking a piece of paper and writing down it is 9 supposed to contain. X amount of chlorine, X amount 10 of that, X amount of this; is that correct? 11 A. I would say in general, that's true, 12 yes . 13 Q. And do you know if quality control 14 checks were done on the product in order to 15 determine that it was meeting its 16 performance-based specifications? 17 A. I don't know that, specifically. 18 Q. Do you know about the existence of 19 any standard quality control procedure? 2 0 MR. MALIN: I am going to object to 2 1 the form of the question. There is nothing 2 2 that indicates that these tests relate to in 2 3 his background which would indicate that he 2 4 would be in a position to answer these 2 5 types of questions about WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048144 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 136 2 performance-based quality control which, of 3 course, is not an issue in this case. 4 MR. COHEN: Once again, Counsel, I 5 will advise you that that is the witness you 6 produced in accordance with the Discovery 7 Order No. 1, Part 2, Subpart e, as the 8 witness who would testify with knowledge of 9 the product purity of Monsanto products that 1 0 contained PCBs. 1 1 MR. MALIN: Then you had better tell 1 2 us what you mean by purity. Is purity 1 3 whether or not it has a certain dielectric 14 content? 15 MR. COHEN: That is the witness that 16 you produced to testify with respect to the 17 subject. You understand what the words 18 "product purity" to mean. You identified 19 him as a witness to answer questions ' 2 0 regarding that subject. 2 1 MR. MALIN: I am afraid you are 2 2 somewhat confused about the nature of the 2 3 kinds of questions to which you would seek 2 4 answers, but I think the witness is -- 2 5 BY MR. COHEN: WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048145 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Fh.D. 13 7 2 Q. Try to do your best with respect to 3 my confusion, sir, and let's have the witness 4 answer that question. 5 What can you tell me about product 6 purity? What did you understand product purity to 7 mean? 8 Answer this question, please. 9 MR. MALIN: I will object to that 10 question. What does he understand as to 11 that product? You better ask him specific 12 questions. I direct you not to answer that 13 quest ion. 14 BY MR. COHEN: 1 5 Q. Dr. Kaley, tell me the circumstances 16 of your being identified to come here and testify 17 today ? . 1 8 A. I wa s asked. 19 MR. MALIN: I object to the form of 2 0 that question. You may answer it. 2 1 BY MR. COHEN: 2 2 Q. Who asked you? 2 3 A. Mr. Malin. 2 4 Q. Directly? 2 5 A. Yes. , WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048146 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 13 3 2 Q - Did he tell you what you were being 3 called for? 4 A . Yes, I believe so. 5 Q Did he read you these two subparts 6 of that order? 7 A . I believe so, yes; at least 8 paraphrased them. 9 Q Did he ask you to come here and 1 0 testify with respect to your knowledge of the 11 product of purity of Monsanto's products that 12 contained PCBs? 13 MR. MALIN: Don't answer any of 1 4 these questions about our discussions. 15 MR. COHEN: Well, what's your 1 S objection? That is the man you identified. 17 You produced him here today. I didn't ask - 18 for Dr. Kaley, I asked for a witness to 19 testify with respect to Discovery Order No. 2 0 1, Paragraph 2, (d) and (e) . 2 1 MR. MALIN: And we have given you 2 2 the person with the m'ost knowledge we have 2 3 on that particular subject. 2 4 You are going to ask for someone who 2 5 knows what specifically went to the Paoli WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048147 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Fh.D. 13 9 2 Rail Yard. We have told you time and time 3 again, we made the stuff and sold it. What 4 people did with it after that, that's 5 something else again. S MR. COHEN: Mr. Malin, you seem to 7 be the one that's confused, because there is 8 nothing in part (e) about the Paoli Rail 9 Yard. I am asking this man about product 10 purity, and now you won't even let the 11 witness answer. 12 MR. MALIN: Product purity. 13 There is a measure of relevance. 14 Overall product purity defined how? Maybe 15 you had better define "purity" for us. 16 MR. COHEN: I don't think I have to 17 define anything. This is a Court Order. 18 I'm asking the witness to tell me what he 1 9 understood product purity to be. You spoke 2 0 to him on the phone. You asked him to come 2 1 here and testify. He's testified that you 2 2 read to him or paraphrased these two 2 3 sections. 2 4 I want to understand what he 2 5 believed his knowledge of product purity WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUS1LOW WATER PCB-00048148 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph . D. 14 0 2 meant. 3 MR. MALIN: I am going to direct you 4 not answer the question. 5 You have talked about what was in 6 PCBs, which you have tested it for other 7 than the actual PCB congeners. He's told 8 you that. You're asking the questions. He 9 has told you. He's told you with respect 1 0 to - - 11 MR. COHEN: No. Actually, let me 1 2 interrupt you for a moment. 1 3 MR. MALIN: Let me finish. 1 4 MR. COHEN: Let me just interrupt. 15 He did not tell me what was in there 1 6 and what they tested for, other than certain 17 specified compounds. And I'm trying to find 18 out what else they tested for. 19 MR. MALIN: Why don't you ask him 2 0 that question? 2 1 MR. COHEN: Given that tapdance 22 aboutpurity -- ' 2 3 MR. MALIN: Why don't you ask him 2 4 that question. 2 5 MR. COHEN: I thought I had about 10 WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048149 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph . D. 141 2 minutes ago. 3 BY MR. COHEN: 4 Q. Let's go back. 5 What other analyses are you aware of 6 that Monsanto made during the time period you were 7 employed by Monsanto on the product going out the 8 door; that is, dielectric fluid containing PCBs? 9 A. With regard to impurities? 10 Q. Anything. 11 A. I'm sure there were, as I said 12 before, there were performance specifications 13 which, to my understanding, is routinely done, to 14 be sure the product was marketed as advertised. 1 5 Q. Who did that testing? 16 A. Probably, most of it was done at the 17 plant. 18 Q. Any particular department or 19 individual who did it? 2 0 A. I'm sure the quality control lab at 2 1 the Krummich plant. 2 2 Q. So the Krummich plant, during the 2 3 time period, had a quality control laboratory? 2 4 A. Yes. 2 5 Q. And do you know who was employed in WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048150 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 142 2 that quality control laboratory during that time 3 period, '73, which was the start of your tenure, 4 through '77, when they stopped manufacturing? 5 A . No. 6 Q. Were there scientists or technicians 7 employed there? 8 A. Technicians. . 9 Q. During that time period, were you in 1 0 the Krummich quality control laboratory at this 11 time? 12 A . No . 1 3 Q So you have never seen it? 14 A . I have seen it. 15 Q Oh, you have seen it? 16 A . I mean, I probably stuck my head in 17 and looked at i t. 18 Q During that time period? 19 A . Probably not during that time 2 0 period, no. 2 1 Q. Do you know what the laboratory was 2 2 equipped with in the way of facilities for doing 2 3 analyses during '73 to '77? 2 4 A. Mot specifically. 2 5 Q. Did they have gas chromatography? WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048151 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 2 A. I doubt it. 14 3 3 Q. I assume, likewise, they did not 4 have mass spectrometry? 5 A. I'm sure they did not have mass 6 spectrometry. 7 Q. Did they keep records of their 8 analyses? 9 A. I don't know specifically. 1 0 Q. Do you know what criteria they would 11 have been testing for? 12 A. Primarily, dielectric properties. 13 I mean, I assume we're still talking 14 about dielectric fluids, dielectric properties 1 5 primarily. 1 6 Q - How did they- do that? 17 A . I don't know, s; 1 8 Q Do you know what the tests would be 19 for properties? 2 0 I would assume dielectric strength, 2 1 primarily. Probably some measure of water 2 2 content. 2 3 Q Would water content, to your 2 4 knowledge, be an impur i ty? 2 5 A . Yes. WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048152 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 14 4 2 Q Any other impurities you know about? 3 A . There could be any number, I 4 suppose: Chlorine, hydrochloric acid. 5 Q Were tests done for those 6 lmi "3 7 A . I don't know that they were done 8 specif ical ly for those impurities, no. . 9 Q What impurities do you know they did 10 test for? 11 A. I don't know they tested for any 12 specific impurities. 13 Q. Other than dielectric properties, do 14 you know of any tests that they conducted? 1 5 A. Not specifically, no. 16 Q. Do you know the names of any 17 individuals who were working in that QC lab during 13 that time period? ' . 1 9 A. No, I don't. 2 0 Q. Who was the supervisor of that QC 2 1 lab? 2 2 A . I have no idea . 2 3 Q What supervisory responsibilities 2 4 did you have during that time period for that QC 2 5 lab? WISE HATCHER DIMTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048153 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 2 A. None whatsoever. 14 5 3 Q. Who would have been a person whom 4 you can identify who would have had supervisory 5 responsibilities for that QC lab? 6 A. The person would have been, I 7 suppose, the Plant Manager, but I don't know who 8 was the Plant Manager at that time. 9 Q. Does Monsanto have a Quality Control 1 0 Department as a centralized management level 11 department? 12 A. It does not. 13 Well, let me modify that answer to 14 say that there is a quality assurance group in 1 5 Corporate Research which was formed probably in 1 6 the late 1970s, primarily overlooking the quality 17 of toxicological testing, not concerned with the 1 8 quality assurance of products going out the plant 19 gates . 2 0 Q. Now, by the time that Quality 2 1 Assurance Department would have been created, you 2 2 had stopped manufacturing PCBs? 2 3 A . Right. 2 4 And I want to emphasize that the 2 5 kind of quality assurance that that group does has WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048154 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 146 2 nothing to do with what we have been discussing, 3 but the words could be confused in my answer and I 4 didn't want that to happen. 5 Q. But, the work that that Quality 6 Assurance Department did, that is, studying 7 properties, did that involve 8 fluids containing PCBs? . 9 A. Not to my knowledge, no. 1 0 I mean it is. They are an oversight 11 group. They are an auditing-type group. 12 Q. So is it because the product was 1 3 ceased, they stopped manufacturing it in '77, that 1 4 quality assurance group never had anything to do 15 with the toxicological properties of PCB fluids? 16 A. That would be my understanding, yes. 17 Q. How did Monsanto know, on an ongoing 18 basis, the PCDF content, if any, of their 19 2 0 A. Well, we did not detect 2 1 dibenzofurans in our own fluid until about 1975, 2 2 at the earliest, and we only made them for two 2 3 years after that. 24 So in general, we didn't have any 2 5 idea that they were in there and could not have WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048155 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 14 7 2 measured them if they were after that period of 3 time. 4 There were, as I mentioned, an 5 occasional, you know, five or six, certainly less 6 than 10 analyses done. 7 Q. And dioxin testing, I think you said 8 was done once and not again? . 9 A. To my recollection, that's correct, 10 within Monsanto. 11 Q. Right. So, based upon that testing 12 that you referred to, was the source of Monsanto's 13 knowledge -- 14 MR. MALIN: Objection. 15 Q. -- internally regarding the presence 16 of PCDFs and dioxins? 17 MR. MALIN: Objection. He has 18 testified with respect to literature that 19 was published throughout the world with 2 0 respect to the presence of PCDFs and PCBs 2 1 manufactured elsewhere, and the literature 2 2 with respect to test s' done on PCBs. 2 3 MR. COHEN: That's very interesting. 2 4 BY MR. COHEN: 2 5 Q. I asked my question about internal WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048156 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 14 8 2 testing. That was the source of the knowledge for 3 internal testing; is that right? 4 A . For Monsanto-done performed 5 analyses that's right. S Q Thank you. 7 Are you familiar with the Kanechlor? 8 A . I mean, I know it's a PCB product, 9 yes . 1 0 Q. Did your laboratory in any of the 11 groups that you were working in at any time 12 analyze competitive dielectric fluids on the 13 markets? 14 A . In that initial 1971 1 5 analysis for PCDFs in PCB containing products. 1 6 Some other ones, I don't know. I don't have a 17 specific. I can't say whether Kanechlor was among 18 those or not. I think it was. 19 Q. Other than that one experience that 2 0 you identified earlier, did the laboratories 2 1 otherwise analyze competing products -- 2 2 A. Not that I re'call. 2 3 Q. -- for any characteristic 2 4 whatsoever, performance? 2 5 A. Not that I know of, no. WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048157 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 14 9 2 Q Do you know the name Vos? 3 A . Yes, I do. 4 Q That is a scientist who ha: done 5 some analyses on PCBs? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q Are you familiar with his work? 8 A . Yes, I am. 9 Q Do you know if he has done testing 10 of any of the Aroclor products to detect the 11 presence of dibenzofurans? 12 A. Yes, at least the gentleman that did 1 3 the first report that I mentioned in 1971, the 1 4 first reported dibenzofurans in the foreign 15 products, but he was not able to measure them in 1 <5 Monsanto's products. 17 Q Was he a Monsanto employee? 18 A . No, he was not. 19 Q At that time or anytime? 2 0 A . Certainly not at that time, not to 2 1 my knowledge 2 2 Was he at any time? 2 3 I suspect not. 24 Q You're aware that some question has 2 5 been raised regarding testing done by WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048158 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 2 Biotest on compounds other than PCBs -- 150 3 A . Yes , I am. 4 Q - - are you not? 5 A . I ' m aware of that. 6 Q To your knowledge, has any question 7 been raised of any of IBT1s testing o f 8 products containing PCBs? 9 A. By whom? 10 Q. Anyone. The United States 11 Government; anyone. 12 A. Nobody like the United States 1 3 Government I know of, no. 1 4 Q. Does Monsanto accept as accurate the 15 results of the testing done by IBT on specimens 1 6 that are said to contain PCBs? 17 MR. MALIN: I will object to the 18 form of the question. That question is so 19 vague and so compound, I don't see how it 2 0 can be answered, especially by this witness. 2 1 Especially since there has been no 2 2 foundation laid to indicate this witness 2 3 would have that knowledge or that this 2 4 witness can speak for Monsanto in that 2 5 respect. WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSI LOW WATER PCB-00048159 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph. D . 15 1 2 MR. COHEN: Well, let me ask you 3 that. 4 MR. MALIN: You think you can answer 5 that question. Go ahead. 6 THE WITNESS: I can't speak for 7 Monsanto. 8 BY MR. COHEN: 9 Q. Tell me what you know about the IBT 10 testing. 11 MR. MALIN: That is so far afield. 12 IBT testing. I don't see what that has to 13 do 'with Discovery Order No. 1. However, I 1 4 will permit you to go far enough to 15 ascertain as to whether or not it has 16 anything to do with this discovery. 17 BY MR. COHEN: 18 Q. Tell me what you know about the IBT 1 9 testing using PCBs. 2 0 MR. MALIN: I object to the form of 2 1 that quest ion. 2 2 BY MR. COHEN: ' 2 3 Q. You can answer. 2 4 A. It is my understanding that in the 2 5 late 1960s or early 1970s, Monsanto contracted WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048160 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 152 2 with Industrial Biotest Laboratories to do a 3 series of toxicological tests, both short-term and 4 long-term, on a variety of species to basically 5 study the toxicological properties of the PCB 6 product line. 7 Q. Was that the extent of what you know 8 about the IBT testing? . 9 A. I know the testing was done. I know 10 there have been concerns raised about IBT in 11 general, but, to my knowledge, there is no reason 12 to believe that the results of the IBT tests don't 1 3 represent an accurate picture of the toxicological 14 properties of PCBs. 1 5 Q. And is that the general feeling, as 1 S you understand it, inside the company, Monsanto -- 17 MR. MALIN: Same objection. 18 THE WITNESS: That's my.general 19 understanding, yes. 2 0 Could I get another restroom break? 2 1 MR. COHEN: Want to stop for lunch? 2 2 THE WITNESS: ' That's up to you all. 2 3 MR. COHEN: I don't think we will be 2 4 all that much longer. If you want to keep 2 5 going. WISE HATCHER DIHTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048161 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 153 2 Unless you all have a lot of 3 questions yourself. 4 BY MR. COHEN: 5 Q. You are familiar with material 6 safety data sheets, aren't you, sir? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Have you had anyparticipation in 9 the preparation of material safety data sheets 1 0 since your employment or during your tenure of 11 employment with Monsanto? 1 2 A. Yes. 13 Q. Anything to do with materialsafety 14 data sheets regarding dielectric fluids containing 1 5 PCB products or PCBs? 1 6 -..................A-.- .................PCBs, yes, not dielectric fluids, 17 18 Q. Can you tell me which material 19 safety data sheet for which years or during which 2 0 publications were you involved? 2 1 A. I think it was the 1985 revision of 2 2 the PCB MSDS. ' 2 3 I also reviewed the most recent, 2 4 which I think was 1989, but I'm not sure. 2 5 Q. Would the 1935 MSDS have been the WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048162 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 154 2 first one that you would have been involved? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And what was it for? Exactly what 5 product was identified? 6 A . It was not for any product. It was 7 for generically for polychlorinated biphenyls. 8 Q. Did it identify a trade name? 9 A. In what sense? I mean, it 10 identified lots of trade names as alternative 1 1 names for PCBs. 1 2 Q. It identified a number of trade 13 names? 1 4 A. That's correct. 1 5 Q. Do you remember the trade names that 16 itidentified? ' 17 A. Not all of them. Certainly Aroclcr 1 8 was one, I believe. I believe Inerteen and 1 9 Pyranol were both mentioned. I don't know if any 2 0 of the other synonyms were listed or not. They 2 1 weren't listed as the product's title. They were 2 2 listed as snyonyms. 2 3 Q. Do you remember if any trade name 2 4 was identified as trades name? 2 5 A. No. MS DS is a requirement for WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048163 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 155 2 products that a company makes and Monsanto Company 3 no longer makes PCBs. But we feel, and still 4 feel, there is a need for a generic MSDS. So we 5 may have a generic MSDS, but it's not the same as 6 other MSDSs which have to be specific to a given 7 product. 8 Q. In the course of working on.the 19 8.5 9 MSDS, did you review any of the prior MSDSs that 10 Monsanto had prepared for PCB products? 11 A. Yes. 12 MR. COHEN: Let me show you an 13 Material Safety Data Sheet that has been 14 previously produced in this litigation. 15 Mark this, please. 16 17 (Material Safety Data Sheet marked 18 as Kaley Exhibit 5 for identification.) 19 2 0 MR. COHEN: Actually, it looks like 2 1 it has something attached to the back. We 2 2 can probably tear off the last two pages. 2 3 Remove the last two pages from the 2 4 document. 2 5 MR. COX: Off the record. WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048164 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 156 2 (Discussion held off the record) 3 MR. MALIN: Is this part original? 4 (Discussion held off the record) 5 THE WITNESS: The tests are 6 different documents. 7 BY MR. COHEN: 8 Q. They are different. Tell me about 9 what we have marked as K-5? 1 0 A . Are we back on the records? 11 Q Yes 12 MS . DUGGIN: One quick question. 1 3 Ka1ey- 5 , is all that except 9415? 14 MR . COHEN: He is now explaining 15 He says they are different documents. He's 16 explaining it. And he is going to explain., 17 it now. 18 BY MR. COHEN: 19 Q. Go ahead. 2 0 A. The first two pages appear to be a 2 1 document from May 1971, and the Material Safety 2 2 Data Sheet for Aroclor 124 3-. 2 3 Q. Well, the first page? 2 4 A. I mean, I guess the first page is 2 5 Aroclor 1248. WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048165 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 157 2 The second page says, Aroclor 1221. 3 I would assume it's yet another document. I don't 4 know there is anything on here that specified 5 themselves as a Monsanto document either with the 6 first two pages as Monsanto documents. 7 The last three pages of the document 8 2817 -- 2824 and 2813 I would assume -- obviously, 9 both the last two pages, one is Page 3 of 5 and 10 one is Page 3 of 4. So they are obviously from 1 1 different documents, also. 12 So I would say that that is a 13 five-page compilation of at least four different 1 4 Material Safety Data Sheets. 15 Q. Let's look at the page that is 2324. 1 6 A. Okay. 17 Q. Do you recognize that as being a 1 8 Monsanto document? . 19 A. It certainly appears to be one of 2 0 the Material Safety Data Sheets that I'm familiar 2 1 with from Monsanto, yes. 2 2 Q. But can you tell us, as you sit here 2 3 today, what year it is from? 2 4 A. I cannot, no . 2 5 Q. Do you see the third full paragraph WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048166 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 153 2 on the fire and explosion, "PCBs in electrical 3 equipment have been reported"? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Do you know what that is referring 6 to? 7 A. Well, it's referring to the 3 potential for the formation of reporting on 9 reports of the potential for formation of dioxin 10 and furans from PCB electrical fluids in fires. 11 PCB fires. 12 Q. Do you know specifically what type 13 of reports they are referring to? 14 A. There is a variety of reports. I 15 would guess that is probably either the '85 or the 16 document because I probably wrote that -- actually 17 wrote that paragraph. There is Government reports 18 as well as literature reports. 19 Q. Does Monsanto maintain any document 2 0 repository which contain reports such as you 2 1 apparently referred to on that page in that 2 2 paragraph? ' 2 3 A. I don't know, specifically. I mean, 2 4 these kinds of reports are in any library. I have 2 5 some in my files. WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048167 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 159 2 Q. Let's put that aside. 3 Let me show you another document 4 that has been previously supplied in this 5 litigation. It is Pages 9 through 11 of a longer S document. See if you can identify it for me? 7 MR. COHEN: Mark it as K-6. 8 9 (Three-page document marked as Kaley 10 Exhibit 6 for identification) 11 12 THE WITNESS: I have no on 1 3 of ever seeing that document. 14 BY MR. COHEN: 15 Q - So, you don't recognize it? -1--6 A . That's co-rre-Gt-.--------------------------- - .... 17 Q Do you know what the AOAC is? 18 A . Y e s , I d o . . 19 Q What is it? 2 0 A . It is the of Official 2 1 Analytical Chemists, I believe is the proper name 2 2 of the organization. 2 3 Q. Since you don't know the specific 2 4 transformers or dielectric fluids sold for 2 5 transformer fluid for use at the Paoli Rail Yard, WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048168 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 160 2 what would you have to do to tell me about the 3 chemical makeup of PCB fluids that could have been 4 used at the Paoli Rail Yard? 5 MR. MALIN: I'll object to the form 6 of that question. It is vague and it is 7 also hypothetical. It's appears to be 8 hypothetica1. 9 MR. COHEN: Nothing hypothetical. I 10 am trying to find out from the witness who 11 would have knowledge to be able to tell me 1 2 to answer that question. 1 3 THE WITNESS: My answer is I suppose 14 it depends on what you want to know. 1 5 BY MR. COHEN: 1 6 Q. Well, if I wanted to know what the 17 chemical makeup was, that is, what chemicals were 1 8 used and in what percentage to make the dielectric 19 fluid, what would you have to tell me? 2 0 A. I would have to know what the 2 1 particular products were, both their trade name 2 2 and numerical designation, -and I would have to 2 3 have some information as to the chemical makeup of 2 4 those products like the specification sheets I 2 5 have shown earlier. Taking those to be WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048169 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 161 2 ive of things, then I suppose I could 3 answer the question. 4 Q. If I were to ask you strictly with 5 respect to Monsanto products that could have been 6 used at the Paoli Rail Yard, could you do that as 7 you sit here today? 8 A. I think so. I mean, I guess it 9 depends. I'm not sure what question you want me 1 0 to be able to answer. 11 Q. Can you tell me the percentage, 12 either by weight or quantity of chlorine, for 13 example, in Aroclor 1242? 14 A. Yes. 1 5 I mean -- 1 S Q. That heat remained constant? 17 A. Are you talking about free chlorine 18 or bound chlorine? ' 19 Q Bound ? 2 0 A . Boundary, they're on average 42 2 1 percent. 2 2 Q So, in other words -- 2 3 A . Very close to that. 2 4 Q -- you would just recite for me the 2 5 percentages that have appeared in the publications WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048170 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 162 2 that have been produced similar to the one that we 3 looked at here earlier today regarding the GE 4 material? 5 A. Well, I mean, the products are 6 made -- the numerical designation represents the 7 percentage of chlorine in that product. It is 8 probably not 42.000 percent; it is probably 41 to 9 43 percent on any given batch. 1 0 Q. How does Monsanto know that? 1 1 A. I suppose they test for it. It is 1 2 partly the process used, and then there are tests 13 you can -- you test for specific gravity of the 1 4 product or there are specific tests to actually 1 5 measure the chlorine content. I do not know, as I 1 6 sit here. Monsanto may have done that on any 17 particular batch to verify that. 18 Q. You said I' suppose and may have. 1 9 Do you know if Monsanto did such 2 0 testing? 2 1 A. I do not know specifically, no. 2 2 Q. So the consequence is you can't tell 2 3 me if they did test and on what frequency they did 2 4 test? 2 5 A. That's correct, I cannot. WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048171 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 163 2 Q. And apparently, there were at least 3 two plants that manufactured dielectric fluids 4 prior to 1971? 5 A. There are two plants that 6 manufactured PCBs. 7 Q. Where was the dielectric fluid 8 manufactured? . 9 A. Well, I mean, some of the PCBs went 1 0 to the dielectric fluid. Some of the PCBs went to 11 other applications. I don't know that we 12 specifically manufactured PCBs that were only for 13 14 Q. Do you know how many plants 15 manufactured dielectric fluids? 16 MR. MALIN: He's just answered your 17 question. 18 MR. COHEN:' No, he hasn't. He just 19 told me about PCBs. He said there are two 2 0 plants that manufactured PCBs; is that 2 1 correct? 2 2 THE WITNESS: ' That's correct. 2 3 BY MR. COHEN: 2 4 Q. In what form does the PCBs come out 2 5 of the end of the production plant? Is it a WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048172 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 16 4 2 solid? 3 A. Depends. It can be from a fairly 4 free-flowing liquid to a very viscous liquid; 5 almost a solid. 6 Q. So, is it always manufactured in 7 liquid form? 8 A. I will say the answer to that is 9 yes . 1 0 Q. Now, prior to 1977, how many plants 11 did Monsanto operate that manufactured dielectric 12 fluid containing PCBs? 1 3 A. Well, since you did not like my 14 answer, I assume you're trying to make a point 15 which I don't understand. 16 Monsanto made PCBs in two plants, 17 both dielectric. PCBs from one of those plants 1 8 probably found their way -- some of those PCBs 19 into dielectric fluids. 2 0 MR- MALIN: I am going to object. 2 1 This witness is not qualified to determine 2 2 exactly where PCBs went or where they were 2 3 if they were blended with other liquids to 2 4 make dielectric fluids, if they were. 2 5 BY MR. COHEN: WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048173 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 165 2 Q. You don't know. You don't know 3 where the dielectric fluid was manufactured? 4 I assume it was manufactured at both 5 mean -- 6 Is that an assumption on your part? 7 I mean, I know it was manufactured 8 I don't know what you mean by 9 fluids, I guess, as opposed to Aroclor 1 0 fluids in general. 11 Certainly there was blending done, 1 2 as Mr. Malin has pointed out, at Krummich. I 13 don't know if that was blending done at Anniston 14 or not. There was certainly blending done at 1 5 Krummich. 1 6 Q. Your Aroclor product with the number 1 7 such as 1242 or 1248 or 1260 was, as you 18 considered it, strictly a PCB product and not a 19 dielectric fluid? 2 0 A. It could have been used as a 2 1 dielectric fluid. Dielectric fluids were pure 2 2 PCBs. 2 3 Aroclor 1242. Certainly Aroclor 2 4 1242 or 1254 or any of the others were pure PCB. 2 5 Q. And it was that form that the WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048174 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 16 6 2 product was manufactured, Aroclor 1242, 1248, 3 12 5 4, 12 6 0? 4 A . .That's correct. 5 Q And it was then sold for use as a 6 fluid? 7 A . That ' s correct. Some of it was. 3 Q. The PCB fluid was manufactured as a 9 PCB fluid which then was used by the consumer as 10 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. -- or in the case of products mixed 1 3 by General Electric Company, it was sent to them 14 in that form 1242, 1248, 1254, 1260. They mixed 15 it with another product and sold their product? 16 A. In some cases that's true. In some 17 cases Monsanto did blending to the customer's 18 specifications, but it was always done in that 19 sequence. 2 0 Q. So the product, PCBs, as Aroclor 2 1 1242, 1248, 1254, 1260, is synonymous with the 2 2 dielectric fluid called Aroclor 1242, 1243, 1254, 2 3 1260; it is one and the same thing? 2 4 A. That would be my understanding as 2 5 you were using the terms, yes. If there is WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048175 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph . D . 167 2 something more, it would not have been called 3 Aroclor 1242. It would have had to have been 4 designated in some other manner either by customer 5 trademark or some other thing. 6 Q. Did Monsanto manufacture a 7 dielectric fluid that was not pure PCBs? 8 A. We blended fluids to make dielectric 9 fluids that were not pure PCBs. I don't know if 10 that's what you mean by manufacture. 11 Q. Fine. 12 What was that product called? 13 A. We sold it under our customers' 14 trademarks is my understanding. There are 15 Pyranols and Inerteens, which were, in fact, 1 6 blended by Monsanto and shipped from our plants 17 and there may have been others. I'm picking on 18 those two because they are the most familiar to 1 9 me . 2 0 Q. So in that case, the customer, now 2 1 speaking of General Electric Company, would have 2 2 asked you to do the blending of the product and 2 3 you did? 2 4 A. That's my understanding, yes. 2 5 Q. To your knowledge, did General WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048176 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 168 2 blend any of the products on their own? 3 A. Yes. My understanding is that they 4 did. 5 Q. So they bought product such as 6 Aroclor 1242, 1248, et cetera, took it to their 7 plant where they blended the product and sold it, 8 as you said, under their name? 9 A. That's my understanding, yes. 10 Q. Any other customers do that? 11 A. I think Westinghouse did. I assume 12 any of them could have. I don't know. 13 MR. COHEN: I have no further 14 questions for that witness. That is not to 1 5 say that I am not going to refile a request 16 to the court upon receipt of this transcript 17 that Monsanto identify and produce other 18 witnesses in compliance with Discovery Order 1 9 No. 1 and specifically Paragraphs 2(d) and 2 0 2(e) based upon this witness' testimony. 2 1 MR. MALIN: Whatever. I guess 22 that ' s it . 23 2 4 (Deposition concluded at 2:25 p.m.) 25 WISE HATCHER DINTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048177 1 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, Ph.D. 16 9 2 CERTI FICATION 3 4 5 I hereby certify that the 6 proceedings and evidence noted are contained 7 fully and accurately in the notes taken by 8 me on the deposition of the above matter, 9 and that this is a correct transcript of the 10 same. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 does not apply to any 1 8 reproduction of the same by any means, 1 9 unless under the direct control and/or 2 0 supervision of the certifying reporter.) 21 22 23 24 25 WISE HATCHER D1NTER BRUSILOW WATER PCB-00048178 N- | ^ | LA Yin i NOTES CORRECTION REASON *1SE HATCHER DCSTIR BRUSILOV JTiuO.j'' ' J^TL* vl?rC,rT COi.^7 RE.^OrTLv WATER PCB-00048179 LAWYER'S NOTES Page Line CORRECTION 18 3 "polychlorides* should read "polychlorinated" REASON Editorial 34 17 "chromatic* should read "chromatographic" Editorial 47 13 "clorphens" should read "Clophens" Editorial 52 19 "PCPD" should read "PCDF" Editorial 7 54 15 "DTE" should read "DDE" Editorial 55 23 delete "James W." Editorial 63 4 "Scientist" should read "Sciences" Editorial 74 22 "tetrachorated" should read "tetrachlorinated" Editorial 76 11 "all" should read "suitable" 83 17 delete "home" Editorial Editorial 85 14 "Prospectus" should read "Perspectives" Editorial 120 20 "A subcontractor" should read "Someone" Editorial 161 20 "Boundary" should read "Bound" .- Editorial WISE HATCHER PINTER BRUSILOW LITIGATION COMPUTER SUPPORT COURT REPORTERS WATER PCB-00048180