Document 6Xk2D8jRNqGG8BrmzRk22EJd

FILE NAME: Eternit (ETER) DATE: 1977 DOC#: ETER024 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Meeting Transcript Professor A D eruyttere, Dr L K Lacquet, Dr J L epoutre, Mr ? R Olllhsr, Bslgiua, and Xeabsr o f th e Board o f E te rn it B uilding Product l t d . , - Profs or a t th e F aculty of Applied Scienoes, * - U h iv e r ity o f L ouvain, ' Beod o f K etallxcrgL oal S e p t U niversity o f Louvain, now c a lle d D eperto n t . o f M ateriel Science) a lso ' PhD, U n iv e re lty o f .S h e f f le ld , l - 1 'Ifeii"i" Lecturer, U nlveralty of Louvain, Dpa r taient o f Patho-Psynlology. Corporate Medical D ire c to r, E ternit * * C censroial Manager, E tern it B uilding Produota L td . - , V '> 1 ,? IS IS 0 0 0 0 OS'1* OS 1 / - ' ZTEHSXT BOILED!0 PROTECTS LIKUD) tiEnfSSDAT 28 JOTS 137T -' KB VAH DZH EZSTi I would 111c, f i r a t o f a l l , t o u n d e rlin e w h atev e ry o n * e l s e has sa id hero I th a t asbestos, ju st lik e most o th e r raw M aterials --lik e c o al, lead , oopper - may hs dangerous f o r th e h e a lth , I f th e neoeeeary p re c a u tio n I s n o t ta k e n . T hat I s se e th in g which we reo o g n ise --b u t we a ls o know t h a t a s b e s to s i s c o n trib u tin g to our d a ily ocm fort, to modern l i f e , and to our s e c u rity . . I t I s because you her i n th e tUC have been one o f th e f i r s t c o u n trie s --i f n o t th e f i r s t - i n th e world t o be convinced about th e im portance o f 't h i s b a la n c e d advantage f r e e one s id e and th e p o s s ib le h a z a rd t o h e a lth free th e o t h e r , t h a t you have been, and s t i l l a re , th e lead er i n th e asbestos sad h e a lth problem through out the world. , . . i , ' I would l i k e t o t e l l you t h a t t h e Company t o which I b e lo n g , b e in g s u re t h a t th e b e s t way t o h e lp th e developing c o u n trie s is . t o e r e c t f a c t o r ie s i n t h e i r c o u n tr i e s , w ith t h e i r h elp end t h e ir co-operation, has e rec te d asbestos cement f a c to r is e n e a rly a l l over th e w orld --i n South A m erica, i n A sia, and i n A fric a --b ecause i n f a c t a sb e sto s e w e n t i s th e normal fo llo w e r o f a cement fa c to ry , t'tf h e lp them to solve t h e i r housing problem* in .th o s e developing c o u n trie s . T his means.th a t th e d e c is io n s which you b a rs t o ta k e to d a y may h a v e a n in flu e n c e on th o s e c o u n trie s ^ ;'- ' and if . th e re i s no r e a l m edical p ro o f th an th e nezrBa.ar* to.be-mosre j s tr io t th a n /* .' th ey e re today, i t w ill have a r e a l in flu e n ce on those, fo reig n c o u n tries where t h e problem o f employment i s o f snch r e a l I m p o r t a n c e J f , ' . -,, , , i . ' - ' V ' - ,V > - a J U t g V b A . .................. Our subm ission only . r e f e r s t o a sb e sto s c m e a t , a n d t b a t i s f o r a.', good re a s o n -- . t h a t we a r e .involved o n ly , her# i n th e BX, i n a n asb esto s-cem en t f a c t o r y i n , ' . K e ld re th - th e form er A tla s Company, i n K e ld re th -- and t h a t i s th e .r e a s o n why w e 'V lim it- o u r p re s ent a t i o n t o th e a sb e sto s cement problem . ' -it1-- . -- . .. -s ^ - f i r s t o f a l l , , we had t o ta k e a l i t t l e tim e t o se e what i s - t h e :advantage o f t h e . p ro d u c t. I w i l l not. ta k e t h i s o p p o rtu n ity t o t u r n . t h i s M eeting i n t o p u b l i c i t y * 7-i * . mt heeetminagi?n -adwvahnictahgmesay*pbfe.thaa.'tpermopdtuactito!n!.a _s bbe sutto,Is. hceompeenyt oius'wliilgl? ,jpretriatlt-i ms *f;itroc-ru-nid*eTrl-iyn,,'e ?^'* r e t a r d a n t , i t s m in e ra l s t r u c tu r e makes i t p r a c t i c a l l y in d e s tru c ta b l --. a n d 'i m ust a ls o th a n k th e S e c re ta ry o f th e A dvisory Committee f o r ih e -fa c tV th st. he oust'-indeed : o c n sld er. t h e product t c be i a d e s tr n c ta b le , b eesn se he h a s c h a n g e d t h e aame;-o. o u r- .. Company on page 79 o f th e w r itte n evidence t o ^ E te rn a l E u lld ln g fro d actB 'V --a d a r e happy t o se e t h a t you a re a lre a d y co nvinced y o u r s e lf ! So l se e d n o t:s p e a d tc& :- much tim e on th a t problem! , V , -'sfi,' * . - ' - ~ * A- -- 0 -3., C, X would lik e aleo to m ention tb s re s is ta n c e o l th e product to ro d en ts and in s'sets? th e v e ry low c o n d u c tiv ity t o b e a t -- and l a s t b u t not* le a s t ,- t h a t i t i * .aa M-i iii'C in ex p e n siv e p ro d u c t, which can h e lp p eople i n t h e i r e o la tio n s t o tb s ; problem o f - '. housing - because in th is oountry, as in o th er co u n tries, construc tio n i s .becoming - more and more expensive, add th e f a c t th a t you have a t your d iep o sal good m a te ria l : a t a cheap price w ill certain ly he of g reat in te re s t. ' ' - The p u b lic ity p a rt o f th e Expos# b ein g f in is h e d --and I ap o lo g ise f o r . l i t --X th in !: we have now t o look a t th e o th e r s id e o f th e b a la n c e , th e d isa lv o n ta g e s --v h io h e re the p o ssib le bozarde; and w ith your peroisaion, X w o u ld .lik s.to 'e o rsr th a t in-, th re e p a rts ! f i r s t , what exactly i s the danger w ith in .th e facto ry ? --second, what i s t h e e v e n tu a l p o te n tia l hazards f o r h e a l t h f o r th e d e a l e r s t h e men who, cu t," d r i l l ,'p o l i s h , the fin is h e d product, i f necessary? - m a d th lrd , w fc a tls .th e onKrtr-'7 : r i s k f a r t h e g e n e ra l p u b lic ? ' . ,, -- . ' *, -L S' - 7 - , f i r s t ! i n t h e f a c to r y . Ton know, we can make s l o t o f p h ilo s o p h y ;'* e a n . t r y t o ' - - make a tm aber o f e x tra p o la tio n s) but I r e a l l y do th in k t h a t what y o u r.C o sm ittec wants i s fa c ts - sad X w ill give you th re s sxim plas. of. fa c to rie s m anufacturing asbestos cement, w ith th e exaot fig u re s , f a r your inform ation. - -- sSiii! a iiip iii Tho f i r s t , of ocrure , 1 th e f a c to ry a t M aldreth Since th e tim e i t began o p e ratio n , th e re has only been one known oase o f a s b e s to s , and th e average number of employed sin ce 1929, when th e fa c to ry began, i s , l e t 11s sa y , around 350-400. Secondly, we have an example o f g re a te r im portance, and t h a t i s our f a c t o r y i n ` Belgium, a t Kapall_op Benbosj t h a t fa o to ry has e x is te d s in c e 1923. There a re about 3 . OOCTpeo p le, on average ^ l i v i n g th e re - 2,500 w orkers, anSTKfar t o f i v e hundred" clerlc* in the o f f i c e . B ecause;'this i s --a s f a r a s I know--- th e l a r g e s t faotory located i n one plaoe in tb s world, i t i s , X th in k , > ery in te re s tin g to look a t th e figure t h e r e . In th e tim e t h a t reoorde e x i s t , 's i n o e we f i r s t s t a r t e d ' ohecking t h i s , we lave 23 o a se s o f a sb e sto s and one oase o f o o s o th e lie a a - ' Mrs f a i t quoted th re e o a se s, but I th in k t h a t th e r e must be a m isu n d erstan d in g h e re , i t i s only one c ase) we a re o f course a t your d is p o s a l, t o show you th e r e a l fig u re s when you v i s i t Louvain --and seven o ases o f o a n o e r .: But d o n 't jtsap onto those seven oases of oanoer - i n f a c t , we, have a p o p u la tio n o f 3,000 p e o p le , and th e normal n a tio n a l e x p e c ta tio n o f cancer o f th e lu n g f o r t h a t 'f i g u r e hny'M be 14 , and not seven --s o you oan alm ost fo rg et,.a b o u t th a t,,f ig u r e o f seven-oases o f lu n g cancel4!- ' , \ ?*?}%; . 1 " . - ' , .... ./* Because sans people may s a y P y e s ,.b u t th o se fig u r e s a re provided hy'*the in d u s tr y - -* i t s e l f , beoause of th e s iz e o f th e sample we f e l t i t was o f g r e a t Im portance t o have -somebody independent t o check those f i g u r e s ; and t h a t i s why'we have asked - Dr Laequet, who i a a L e o tu re r-a t-th e U n iv e rs ity o f -Louvainy to- make t U e s tu d y and to give th e r e a l f ig u re s . . HLth your, perm ission, X w ill now'ask Dr L aoquit t o - . : explain to us in a few words th o se fig u re s f o r th e . f a c t ory. o f ICapallp op D enbos. ' ; ____ < ' I ' i- *V , DR LACQDET! Our Chest D epartm ent, f o r th e l a s t t h i r t e e n a n d --a .h a li'y e a rs 'i' has >v been rC onsnltant t o B te r n it concerning-problem* re la te d - to ; a s b e s to s s^Kay^X -have-'x1 t. S lid e Ho. 1? Hiere you se e th o s o r t o f p o p u la tio n on which X -re p o rt now ith *"'* -* ! fin d in g s which r e l a t e jto t h s l a s t ,13j- y e a rs .;', Hie`'fliMB p o p u la tio n 'is , aljou. - 2 , 808, which. I s 10C, a s you can se e i n th e fo u rth ,'o o lix an t\th e s e a re compose - workers and o le r k s .'- I n th e l a s t "column, you see how .this^popalatioaV ; w ith re g a rd ,to , le v e ls of exposure. , . p. - 1*8111. a ,;VLet me e x p la in th e s e le v e l s o f, exposure, whioh I ' have*'nmbereoCf]pt^Srq'3*o r; Zero i s th e level* fo r those who a r e o u t of. th e , f a o to ry A -''th a t'i s , '5people'>iS<>i ' f o r th e fa o to ry , but no* i n t h , f a c to r y . L evel One vouli,W rtliose.-w ho 'are.' J u s t present in the,.faotory --a o le rk , fo r instanoeV 'L evel Three ^woaidsie-ithsi handle of dry fin is h asbestos peoent produots - rough handling,'idiki, priJlingV Cm ittirig; ; eto. - ll aa ss tt ind on oo lluu ns L nn e . , velyvmo ui FwwoHilul1lr ls s. e. th e . e h t+hwan andlin tL t+hV,e g gmr o e, f a. -F 4t . -muiar-aefnj.aToa-r1bi+teyvs,tono-fpe -cm t+hwe - m t'i pi o ^ p -u-X1l aft' -yocr^lboi i1o*_n--^;! .p6-0w< c^at ,i n. . f t a h o e t : -- - r y - i o i n l e v e l o f ex p o su re Two, w hioh i s th e a c t u a l m a n u fa c tu rin g a r e a ; 4511 a r e i rjr.- ex p o ssd -to tb s- f in is h e d p ro d u c t r whioh. is - b e i n g d r i l l e d ^ o r h a n d le d -in a -ro u u d f-i''. V m anner; and 3> a re exposed a o tu a lly t o th e ra w -m in e ra l. ' ,j . On S lid e Ho. 2 | t i e Chest Dep rtm e n t found 23 o ases o f a sb e sto s! ,' and our f i n d i n g 1 n ti /"Si &i; V JL______________________________ - :` C s u d e y o . i ,.* V W fk - '". ' -' i< S tjiv ? # 'S l & i| X- **> S*J54 ; , : ,- ' -Z ".. V-. * ," * '-** *' :, ' ** < '' ~ ' * -V - * . - -.w . * ` * >V ^ EXPOSOEE AMOflO EXPLOTEES* BT AK" ASJESTOS-C2EST J? ^ & * 7ACT0RT, Belgluo - I 57O-" * ' " ' tfilfls *> '> n . `Ajk : i :. f t | | i ^ l l i i i ^ | 1 S | ' * 'l- _'. exposure - 1workers '` ,,:*' *-?N of **> , #*V r v s tr * & i-d 0 - * ' ; 1 * - . ,JLi` *.' ' i t ' - . ` 1.3 , ."' .r-"-r -I. - C '-4.*. ' ' . .*-*--*f *. - * 26. : - ' 179 1636 v \ ;;' 42*7 ' * '; - 90 M , - .u7-?df - * ' ' -J-':.-V?. V lis p s - . r -- . ,* - , :-. '. . : *;is fti:- Ar-.. V - ; v . - y *;;. * ., P " . ,.< . . , % 0 t.,, *-v i.'H V ^ [ ,i V v > *"v - t ' ^ i `^ \ ' * 'VW *.*e\ '>/? ??,*-';*.: ' i <y- : ; VA .-il*' . .-.a*.`.-.sfr * v". --*r '-. BUDE H0...2- PREVALICE OF ASHSTOSIS IH ASBESTO3-CBHT HOBOES, B e is i* , y e a r ly p o p u la tio n a b o u t 2 , 400? y e a r l y exam ined 2,104 39 - . . . v ' . y m s . r ' '. S lB M L u i'" " mcmaicE of kilighaucy ih ah ashbstos-cbctt tactoet, BeisiTM . T<nm oh EABL EOHTKOEHOOHAJtS OF 1873 328 UAL* W0HTEH3 v PERIODI 1963 - I 97S - JL The t o t a l lim ber f o r th e p e r io d 1963-1976 1b 23; and th o e e 23 p e o p le , o f c o u r s e , have not been p resent in th e f a c to ry a t any given p e rio d - i t la a e m u la tiv e nunber over th o se 13- y e a rs . I n th e f i r s t c o lu n n , I have c a l c u l a t e d th e e x p o s u re s th a t those workers underwent, expressed in f ib re s p er co tim es year, o r f ib r e y e a r s . At th e le v e l o f e x p o su re o f l e s s th a n 100 f i b r e s p e r oo, we d i d n o t d e t e c t any c a s e s o f a s b e s to s . He had one i n th e l e v e l o f ex p o su re s o f betw een tOO an d 20 0 , and in th e second column, i f you fo llo w th e f ig u r e s o n , th e r e were n in e l a th e a r e a 500 t o 800, nine i n th e a r e a 600-1600, and t h r e e who r e a l l y h ad a n e x c e p tio n a l ly h ig h le v e l o f exposure. I have o u t down th o se 23 oases i n s h o r t p e r io d s , t o give an id ea of the prevalence in any r e la tiv e ly Bhort period of tim e! a period which co v ers th r e e to f o u r y e a r s i 1963 t o 1967? 1968 t o 1972, 1973 "to 197& -- as you oan s e e , th e number p r e s e n t i n th e f i r s t p e r io d was a b o u t 13, w hich i s a b o u t >54^; th e nunber of oasee o f a s b e s to s is p re s e n t i n th a t seoond p e rio d was ab o u t th e same - 14; which i s th e same p e r c e n ta g e ; an d i n t h e m ost r e c e n t y e a r s , t h e r e a r e s t i l l 11 p e o p le , which i s a b o u t .4456 o f our t o t a l w orking p o p u la tio n . .-7 *a-'> So much f o r a s b e s to s is o r f i b r o s i s . K ith S l i d e No. 3 , we cceie t o th e - p r e v a le n c e o f m alignancies fo r th a t same p o p u la tio n o f w orkers, a ls o r e la te d to t h e i r s exposure expressed in fib re y e a rs . There have been m alignanoies of th e lungt th e r e has been one caee o f p l e u r a l m alig n an cy , m eso th elio m a,- and two .'oases o f Cl -- gaotro-intestinal-m alignancy, stoaaoh and sm all in te stin e ,' excluding th e oolon. The m alig n an cies of the lu n g number seven ov er t h a t 14*5 p e rio d o f y e a r .- - t h a t i s , se v en m a lig n a n c ie s o f th e lu n g --an d one p l e u r a l m e s o th e lic m a ^ w h io h i s . e i g h t --* and th e expected msnber o f m alig n an o ies f o r Belgium i s 14*6 f o r t h a t p e rio d o f tim e . T h is would a ls o i n c lu d e m e so th e lio m a i n Belgium . --. I h a v e 'n o f i g u r e s f o r m elotheliana se p ara te ly fo r our oountry. So, th a t i s e ig h t observed,, a g a in st 14*6 e x p e c te d . As you s e e , t h e r e i s no r e l a t i o n s h i p w ith t h e e x p o e u rb 'e x p re s s e d i n . .. f ib re y e a rs . Four happened t o have th e le a s t exposure -- le s s than'49, f ib r e y e a r s . I have doousnented only one oase o f m esotheliom a f o r t h a t p e rio d io flfi3*5 y e a rs .th a t i s , dooumented w ith th e te c h n iq u e w hich I have o u tlin e d ;.- y e ^ l y / c h e s t .X-^rays,"' p h y s io a l ex am in atio n , r e v ie w in g o f a l.1l `h o s p i t a l re o o rd a ,, f ox^our ."f a c u l t y w h i c h * .^' , . 0 ^ in c lu d e s a n a r e a o o v erin g K a p a lle op "B cibos. I t h i n k ^ th a t: t h e f i g u r e ; w hich'"-^ ^ . , Mrs T a i t m entioned - ab o u t t h r e e a y eaarr 7--. i s a c t u a l l y , t h e 'nuumn ber^?o f '?.naess^bhthel ioicm aa8s which ws o b se rv e i s th e s s r v i o e i e v e ryy y e a r t h e r e a r e a b o u t th r e es ^ c a s e s o f , . > ^ ^^ m eso th e lio m a. But th e y com frem ev eirryywwh e re , o f c o u r s e ^ ana d ^t&txr^a''r-n'n^tf/rxebl ^a tee-dd ,^ttoo .. V V E te rn it, exoept fo r th a t one oase. Tl-pXl *Jt The g as t r o --i n t e s t i n a l c a n c e rs -- y e s , we have. o b se rv e d t v o ^ 'A S ^ - 'two w o rk e rs , . who h a d r e l a t i v e l y sm a ll l e v e l s , o f e x p o s u re , a n d . t h a t a l s o .is .: ircraber su g g e ste d f o r t h a t k in d o f p o p u la tio n .--^namelyy; 315 1, HR VAN SIR RESTI I would o n ly l i k e t o u n d e r l i n e .t h r . a sh esto sle w hlohB r tacqnot r e fe rr e d to w e re pebple/who have e h t h i n .7vV *-f o u r Company f o r many y e a r s ; an d X m uat c o n f e s s ..th a t tw e n ty ,, t w e n t y - f i w ^ o a r s 'a g o i..'- ' th e c o n d itio n s o f work r due t o ~ ` not th e eaoe as they are today* The l a s t example - because I do n o t w an t-to r b u rd e n !you lA th-tjod'aan y ^ fig u re s have had th e fig u re s o f K e ld r e th ,'a n d - ju s t now, w ith X. l o \r e tr"e^BSsi3nimo?tlie S ^ ^ J ; fig u re s f o r K palle - we have now th e fig u re s o f E te r n it Holl a n d w h i oh i& :-'Z'*, '>`".* 7 f a c to r y employing 50 p e o p le ,' which has been- i n e x is t ones ror?AOtVsirg: '8 n o ';9 3 7 ^ 7 ? "? Up to th e p re se n t, th ere i s h o known oase o f a s b e s t o e i e ,' n O 'tn o m lo S io ^ 'o f no known oase of m esothelicm a, n e ith e r b y our own m ed ic al'in sp eo to ra t n o r fr c n ! 7 ' o u tsid e , from th e S ta te . .^*T 4#^7% 3l; How can w e x p a n th o e e 'r a th e r ' fa v o u ra b le ^figOTeB7 _ I''d \n o f e , j^ ,t u s a wor d "fa v o u ra b le ", because only one oase i s lne OM W 'too'm ihy'V 'but R e la te d 'ta n o th e r .i t seems t o he re a s o n a b le .' So^ "*-* 4- :`i '-- ---- j u v a . fig u res fo r asbestos cement? / : F ir s tly , I th in k th a t th e q u a n tity o f a s b e s to in clu d ed in asbesto* cement i s only about 12^. Seoondly, th e asb esto s oement prooes is a v et process - th a t i s to s a y , th e a s b e s to s i s p u t i n t o t h e w a te r a s so o n a s i t i s opened* And t h i r d l y , we a ay perhaps have been lucky --b u t ve have been ab le to ensure th a t asb esto s cem ent a r e a t l e a s t w hat I m ig h t c a l l a " v e r y lu c k y m a r r ia g e " Mhss a s b e s t o s and cem ent o ti o k t o g e t h e r , th e y a r e n o t l i k e th o s e m odern o o u p le s who s e p a r a te 'a f t e r a w h i l s t we b e lie v e t h a t t h e m a r ria g e o f a s b e s t o s an d oeraent I s a good m a r r ia g e , which should be an example to a l l o f us* . ___ - ' ..1 "V-- S.-V , . . . -^ In o rd er to oheck th a t - because i t was a p o in t o f r e a l im portance - V e ask ed ... P ro f e s s o r de R u y tte re t o make some s p e c i a l p h y s ic a l and chem ical, stu d y .co. th e d iffe re n c e s between a sb e sto s cement d u st from th e one s id e ,, and pure a s b e s to s f re o th e o th e r s i d e . X s h a l l now a s k P ro f e s s o r D e r u y tte re t o g iv e s a s m a ll resum e. * . .* ^ ` PH0FE3S0R XJffiUTITJCRE: I n a s b e s t o s c e o e n t p r o d u c t s ,,t h e a s b e s t o s , f i b r e s - a r e lo o k e d i n th e cem ent. But what ab o u t th e d u s t g e n e ra te d , fo r,e x 3 a p le ,~ b y awing 's h e e t o f a s b e s to s .oem ent? One c a n o o n s id e r t h r e e p o s s i b i l i t i e s . ,,v F i r s t ,* th e . d n s t- ;.^ ; - c o n ta in s no a s b e s to s . ,The a s b e s to s w i l l have b een a l t e r e d i n i t s ; n a tu r a !d e ;t i v ' r e a c t i o n w ith oem ent an d w a te r , o r due t o t h e h e a t d e v e lo p e d i n s_awiiig. .r b u r .'X-rV'Y - - d e f r a c t i o n w ork c l e a r l y shows t h a t t h e s u b s t a n o e .o f a s b e s to s --'f o r x m p les^L%v.V' c h ry s o tile --i s p re se n t i n th e .d u s t, w ithout any d e te c ta b le .& teratin*y~So~the7; - ' f i r s t p o s s i b i l i t y i s r u l e d . o u t . However, X -ra y _ d e fra c tio n . does ^ t . 'i n d i c a t e i i h e -/" '- shape of th e a s b e sto s , o r w hether or n ot i t 1b bound to o th e r .substances*v'.S o.the . .second p o s s i b i l i t y ; ; , th e .d u s t i s . a m ix tu re ,,o f p u re a s b e s to ^ p a r t i b l e s l> n d 'p r e :,v::- '' r-;' : cem ent p a r t i l e s * . Oux:'work w ith t h e l i g h t ' .m icro sco p e shows th a t- m ct * p a r t i o le s i n th e f i n e , . f o r i n h a l a b l e d u s t f r a c t i o n , ' f o r. example :10$ o f t h q t o ta l. h is tiy f m o e 't' t i p a r t i c l e s i n t h i s f r a c t i o n a r e p u re cem ent .--, f o r . e x a m p le ,,v 5 C ^ i th a t' ^ m in o rtty ^ o f^ " . f p a r t i c l e s - . f o r * exam ple, 10^ - lo o k ' l i k e p ^ e f a s b e s to s j f i b r e s '^ a i& t h a :j^ h e b a l a n c e _ f o r e x a p s ,a3 P - a r e a m ix tu re o r a n " 'a g g re g a te 'th a t.'m e ana 'a a b e c t { f f i i ^ e s `'i^(t ^ ,, w hich m oref o r,wl e s s l a r g e p a r t i c l e s 'o f oement: a r e c o n ta m ii^ te d fa s b e s to s . f i b r e s .'- r S o o th e se c o n d p o s i b i H t ^ ; a l s o ` doe^jrjq^'' " ^ : lb* th ird p o ssib ility '-* and i t i s th e re a l^ o n e --i s th a t'th e . dust pure oementi (b) m ixed a g g reg ates o f oement an d -asb esto s " o p tio a lly pure" a sb e sto s fib re s * - So, for-exam ple,'.1 ^ o f.th e ^ -t t^ fd r^ o n te rr f , f i b r e s rth e m se lv e s r .^ - S b .th is d e f i n i t i o n ' s , q u i t e a r b i t r a r y ; : . a ll^ * p u ^ wf i) e s m y _ ^ have a tta c h e d ^to._th e m -p a rtic le s , s a a lle r ^ .th a n r th e ir ^ p w n ^ ^ w e t^ ^ a o ^ h i^ f m ^ f .b ^ f ;- :.'- :' I n c i d e n t a l l y , .th e s e , a r e t h e f i b r e s whioh lira T a i t :r o f r r e df-tp h i s e r n i n g I f e ' th erefo re exandned th o B e.so -o allo d "pure" -.fibre w ith .tw o k itx is o f /e le o tro n ^ r tj- V aiaroBoopee tfirst,^ 'w ith v d h . canning. e le q tro n n io ro B O o p e y ^ tlrtt.a t-^ d ta e n fe ^ p r. I - r a y . f l u o r e s c e n t a n a l y s i s .7.T M .0 Bhow' t h a t r"iniro".. f i b r e s ;it* v o 4 ` k i n * c o a t i n g ; ^ - - ' " o o n ta in in g o a lo iu n -c a lo itm which can- only- oanq fraB L th e.O B B en t,._ p etri.B ib eato s .-' . does n o t o o n ta in o a lo iu m ... The s c a n n in g , m ic ro so o p o ( w l d n o t. t e l l . . u , ; t h . ex act."V . _V_ n a tu r e o f t h e ' p o a t i n g , n o r w h e th e r i t i a a c o n tin u o u s la y e r^ 'o r n o t , o r a d o iu p ' o f ': ^' -1 1 rV-i*. . Secondly,' we exam ined w i t h t h e t r a r a n i s e i o i i / e l e o t r o n m io ro so o p e, a l s o v i i h - a t t a c h --: ' B ents f o r e le o tro n d e f r a c tio n and I - r a r flu o re B o e n t;, ia ly si V .I5iiB i n s t r u e e ' e t - 4 * v h io h h a a 'a B t i l l l a r ^ e r ^ r e B o lv iiig pow er.;,than. t h e p re v io u a o n e ,- l e d u s . t o t h e - ^ j ,- - ; !o o n o lu a io n `.th a t..th e 'o o a tin jf on t h e f i b r e a l i k e l y . ocm aiBt * t i j ^ ^ d u ^ f p a c t i o l o B - ` - h a v in g a d ia m e te r o f l e s s .th a n : o o e - t e n t h 't o : t w o - t e n t h . ; o C a >P, < - --jrt.Vt-o-- '* / T hus, f i b r e s i n a s b e s to s cement d u s t a r e d i f f e r e n t f r o a p u re a s b e s t o s i e i t h e r they* are g ro ssly contam inated w ith larg e oement p a r t i c l e s , o r th e y a re contam inated w ith very f in s p a rtio le o . This ap p lies to a l l f ib r e s in seas p ro d u cts, but in th e duot frera an autool& ve pro d u o t we have found t h a t sens f i b r e s a p p e a re d r e a l l y pure The d iffe re n c e between asb esto s d u st and a s b e s to s oeraent d u s t i s co n firm ed .b y th e follow ing experim ents. F i r s t , when th e duet i s p u t in to w ater, th e r e i s a d if f e r e n t behaviour* The s o c a lle d p r o to e o ly s is o f magnesium o f th e a s b e s to s i s slow ed down by th e c a lc iu n c o n ta ln in g c o a tin g , which i t s e l f d is s o lv e s g rad u ally S econdly, th e a b s o rp tio n by th re e k in d s of d u st --namely, pure a s b e sto s , pure cem ent, and a sb e sto s cement - of two d i f f e r e n t e u b sta n o e s fren? c i g a r e t t e saofce, w hich a r e c o n s id e re d t o in d u c e .v-i cancer, has been studied* I t appears th a t in both oases the, asbestos^cem ent dust behaves v e r y much l i k e p u re cem ent, and n o t l i k e p u re a s b e s to s * .* - v * y,'? In conclusion, fron our study ve cannot sa y w hether asbestos cement d u s t'is dangerous o r n o t j b u t we oan sa y t h a t p h y s i c a l ly and ohem ic& lly t h e two k i n d s ; o f: d u s t a r e d if f e r e n t, and th e re fo re i t would be u n ju s tifie d , t o apply, a u to m a tic a lly to .a s b e s to s cement ev ery conclusion which i s a rriv e d a t f o r pu re asb esto s* ^ MR VAH DER HEST: We made a t h i r d s tu d y w ith t h e B a t e l l ; I n s t i t u t e ^ j i n t h e S t a t e s , ;" w ith h am sters, to l e t those ognsters in h ale asb esto s oement duet as a,com plem entary s tu d y t o t h a t made b y P r o f e s s o r D e ru y tte re * B u t,.d u e t o t h e ;f a c t ^ t h a t we o n ly ^ -v - r e c e iv e d t h a t r e p o r t l a s t week, I w i l l r e s i s t t h e .te m p ta tio n , te r p r o d u c e i t now,'' --: b e c a u se I t h i n k i t o n ly r i g h t t h a t we s h o u ld h a v e .jtiiB e .^ to ^ s tu d y ^ id ti^ ^ ll^ iy ^ ^ i^ ^ ;;,;^ ''^ ' : hi: 1 Y ^'V 'S **"** 1 w i l l o n ly s a y t h a t th e r e s u l t s a r e p o s i t i v e , a n d a f t e r t h e \ K o e t i n g ^ ^ .w i l l - - g i v e .`:' -; .v * *w ****-. M * , u i w w . juluo., x cm> i< t . i w n . . w m o ^ t u i r . WUU. w ithin th e tfa o to ry ,;and i t i s fa th e r exceptional^ttotj..itfis even s o ,^ if '.lt- h a s to .b e .out. bn t h e ssiteVN.afti^ '^ o f e M c ^ ^ r i ^ V ^ Y s f 'e s j ^ s e ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ where vtnr se e t h a t cement d u st h a s . othM 4 +>* / --i * I a ls o have th e p le a su re o f b e in g a b le to qu o te an o p in io n from D r S e llk o f f ,: whoa" I m et r e o e n t l y i n Hexioo,- i n h ie l e t t e r , h e s a y s , "On t h e o t h e r hand*-the-.-bound in s t a t e o f th e a s b e s to s w ith in t h e oem ent p r o v id e s p r e e m p t i v e e v id e n c e o f o n r - . a b i l i t y to avoid asb esto s contam ination frem t h i s souroe . . . I f h azard to workers * i s av o id ed , X know o f no d a ta w hich have e s ta b lis h e d a h e a lth r i s k r e s u l t i n g frc-3 e n v iro n m e n ta l c o n ta m in a tio n a s s o c i a t e d w ith e r o s i o n . I r e c o g n i s e t h a t e t u l i e s v-s cap ab le of e v a lu a tin g suoh r i s k would be d i f f i c u l t to d esig n and co n d u ct. S e v e r- t h e l e s , i n t h e o rd e r o f t h i n g s , I s e e no im m ed iate problem i n t h i s r e g a r d ." I ' - w o u ld l i k e t o oonolude my i n t r o d u c t i o n w i t h t h i s s ta te m e n t b y P r o f e s s o r S e l i k o f f , who i s o f o o u rse w e ll known t o a l l o f u s . . i .* ': - . ; - ; ..t e r . ' THE CKURKJUTi Hay X s t a r t b y a s k in g y o u , Mr T an d e r R e s t , a tju s s tio n - a b c u ti- th c ' - hygiene standard? Turner and Newell p resen ted th e ir ev id en ce-y esterd ay , and-th sy - In d ic a te d th a t th e i r f a o to rie s , which were engaged i n m aking c o n s tru c tio n mate; w ere w orking t o below one f i b r e p e r m i l l i m e t r e . The TOC i n t h e i r : e v id e n c e y e s te r d a y , a l s o s a i d t h a t seme f a c t o r i e s h ave g o t down a s f a r a s -5 f i b r e s ,: w o rk in g i n ; t h i s : ' same f i e l d . ' I n view o f th e s e v e r y r e m a rk a b le 7f i g u r e s w hich y o u h a v e p r e s e n t e d t o - u s , would you have d i f f i c u l t y co n fo rm in g t o a s ta n d a r d , of. "5 t o a ' f i b r e ? HR VAN DER REST: I w i l l be v e r y s i n c e r e -- a s a l l o f u s h av e b e e n a n d ' I w i l l s s y t h a t i n H e ld re th , wo a r e i n t h e t" a c t o r y t h e r e - b e lo w t h e 2 f i b r e p e r 'c c , ' a n d 'I ''t h i n k t h a t i s b ecau se t h e UK h as b e e n 'a l e a d e r i n .the a s b e s to s an d h e a lth - p ro b le m .-':Ea+ t o show .th a t th e problem i s d i f f i c u l t ! ev en w i t h > l l . our, 8 te ffio ir> e n g lm e e rs,l-e v e r ' in th e b ig g e s t-fa c to ry -in th e w orld --i f y o u 'w ill .perm it m e;to ;d eB crib e''& g > alle'i n t h a t way! - we a r e s t i l l above. 2 f i b r e s n e r o o . ; He a r e m aking a l l t h e riS c e s s a ry : " . investm ents j - t o s to p /th a t -- b u tT th is r e a l l y ohows t h a t r e r a in ln g b e lo w tk e 2 iib r c - p e r Co, even i f :yo u want t o d o i t , i s n o t &r. e a s y - j o b .'- A n d - 1 E h o u ld s a y t h a t o n e " m u st n o t f o r g e t t h a t t h e 2 f / o o i s a maximum - s o t h i s ' r e a l l y m eanc t h a t t ^ t e v s r ' i- . you are doing in -y o u r.fa o to ry , i n w hatever p a rt ,o f i t y o u a r e ,;ev erf'o p en ln g th a ' - b ag , ;you are asked to e tio k t o '2 - f / c o a s a s'a v e rH g e 'f j.I t'is fe a s y to '-'p n * ^ o n ''p e .p e r; Ma l l r i ^ t , - w e h ave tw o , ;now.we: w i l l l v s '!t ; y ! - i b u t ',ih e v 'i^ o p le T in ;;th o J f a c tf try h ave : t o make up t h e i r m ind t o t r y , an d f i n d a; s o l u t i o n . ' ; I 't h i n k ;to d a y - i-ti;i s i i a p < s i b l e "* ' t o be always eu re th a t'o n e i s below a l e v e l , s e t a t 2 f / c o . ' H e ld re th i n a 'g o o d ' - - ' ` ' '' +VT. --A _i r 1 1 .below th a t- o f ^ . f / c c / . t h a t ,level* w i l l havev.to. be ^ o llo w e d i ^aa^'X t' ._ _ p e r s o n a l l y n o t" s ta re ; t h a t ' w e;w ould Lb o a b l e t o 'f o l l o w / a l e y e l 'M o i ^ l s t a ^ o t u t h a ^ ^ 'f / c o / f Jt'C' t h a t \ I p e r s o n a lly w ould i n s i s t y on - s t i c k i n g "to the'* 2- f / c p rS Let"-u a .T ^^ervtnra^on^thate --. i> THE CHAIBXAlTjp So y o u 'a re -, n o t - c la im i n g ;as* Tinrne^'a a f ew ti' S e ^ t h a % n ^ t ^ ^ ^ \ > o n stru o tio a a t e r a l a f a o to r i e s t h e y a r e w orking below ono,,fibra~~. DR VAN DER 'f f if f i1" Nri' - T am honeaV 'w<-th~ yeeTi *r 'n h m lk sayj t h a ^ i 5 7 ^ ,^ ^ t l ^ ^ - ,, ' ,,'.c'; p o in ts , where. wo measure i n o u r b i g f e o t o r i e s n'B elgium ,. Vs . a r e .b e l w t h * : ^ f / c o ^ ^ you cannot gay. one f i b r e . --i s . t h a t b ec a u se y o u 'e r e i j u s t c o n t e n t o ', b:e.'lie low-,two?k* m tm HR VAR'.DEft, REST: I-,'Do you. w ant me t o an sw er t h a t ( p ie s tio n b n ^ th e o d d V:.yiew',;,or.;onthe;2 ll/o a IS ..below.. f p#I THE CHAIMAN: No - t j u s t want an e x p la n a tio n . We f i n d & v e r y la r g e company h e r e , who have d e m o n s tra te d t h a t as f a r aa th e y a r e c o n c e rn e d , ev en though th e h y g ie n e stan d ard is 2 f / c c , they have been able to g et a p roduct which in th e ir opinion seems t o be th e m ost c o n t r o l la b le , down t o below one f i b r e i n t h a t p a r t i c u l a r d i v i s i o n . How, you a r e t e l l i n g ua t h a t M e ld re th you a r e belo w two -- and we d o , aa you know, have a requirem ent th a t although th e hygiene sta n d a rd ie two, e v ery th in g poBBible haa t o be done t o red u o e i t below t h i s l e v e l . MR VAN DER REST: I sh o u ld eay " e v e r y th in g p o s s i b l e " - I one hundred p e r c e n t ag re e w ith y o u , Mr Chairm an, and e v e ry new in v e s tm e n t i n t h e f a o t o r y i s b e in g m ade, o f- co u rse , to t r y and biding th e sta n d a rd aa low as p o s s ib le . Bot I sa y a g a in ! i n ou r c o n d itio n , to d a y , v s a r e n o t a b le t o g u a r a n te e t h a t i n a l l o u r f a o t o r i e s we should be a b le t o go - f o r te c h n ic a l reasons , n o t f l n a no l a l reaaona o r a n y th in g o f t h a t k in d , b u t t e c h n i c a l l y - we a r e n o t a b le t o g u a ra n t e e t h a t we "re a b l e n t o go 'below t h e tw o f i b r e s . A ndw s want you t o know t h a t we "want t o 'f o l l o w t h a t ' ' 'r e s p o n s ib ility , and to t e l l our engineers th a t two f ib r e s i s w ith in th e p o s s i b i l i ti e s , and we want y o u , a l l o v er th e w o rld t o r e s p e o t t h a t . I f we h a d t o go low er - you asked my p e r s o n a l o p in io n , and my p e r s o n a l o p in io n i s t h a t we would f a c e g r e a t d i f f i c u l t i e s , maybe even th e d o s i n g o f some f a c t o r i e s . _ ~ , ..p - * ,, V . 1; ="**- : ; MR LEWIS! I n t h e w r i t te n e v id e n c e t h a t t h e C a s m itte e h a s r e c e i v e d `f r e o y o u r : Canpany - and in d eed , th e v e rb a l p re s e n ta tio n w hich you have made t h i s a fte rn o o n - th ere appears no e x p lic it referen ce to p o ssib le a lte rn a tiv e s to asbestos cement p r o d u o ts . Does t h i e r e a l l y m ean, Mr Van d e r R e s t , t h a t yerur Company i s ' n o t . oonoerned about a lte r n a tiv o s , b u t r a th e r to argue th a t th e s ta tu s quo sh o u ld bo m aintained? .. . . r . wc " MR VAH DER REST: I would l i k e f i r s t o f a l l t o an sw er t h a t ws, r .in v o lv e d i n . . research in g o th er fib re s , because I should esy th a t a sb e e tw t.o fc itse lf re p re se n ts a v ery h ig h p ercentage o f th e c o s t p rio a --and o f course f o r yarl.and y e a rs we,;, have b e e n lo o k in g f o r s u b s t i t u t e s . ' But up t o now, ,1 ' m u st .M q g riisq ^ th at..we- h a v e . *:> n o t b e e n a b l e t o f i n d a s u b s t i t u t e w h i ^ giyeB t h e same r e s i 8tim 0e ; ^ h e ; )Sjs m e ? '0n'"'.>"Sv 'f r q u a lity t o th e f i n a l pro d u ct and. onoe m ore,' t h i s haa been u n d e rlin e d by p re c e d in g : -i e v id e n o e . We a r e n o t s u r e t h a t t h e f i b r e w ^ c h w m ay > y s n t m l i y " io'ifc'.tb r e p l a c e V'3/."-' V.- a s b e s to s - f o r i n s t a n c e , g la s s f i b r e - we. a r e n o t a l l the"' m e d io a l t e s t s have been made t o 'e n s u r e t h a t t h a t w ould not^ b m o't1d a n g e ik ^ ''- th a n a s b e s t o s . We know th a t, a s b e s to s ' r e p r e s e n t s a d a n g e r 7- b u t' a X t e r i a l l t h e s t u d i e s - , " w hich we have m ade, w ith th e O n io n s,Iw ith 'l.th o .m e d io a l^ w o rl /li rB p ^ n ^ ra jJd ^ ^ - I^ T l? t h e e v id e n o e we h av e f r e n o u r oww faotparf.es j , w e -a re o o n v i i ^ d i r a p e r f ii p s ; 'w e ' a r e ^ m W w rong, b u t we a r e c o a v in e e d t h a t 'w e a r e . m a s te r i n g th e . p ro b le p p te d a y ^ I'and. b o a u s - v ; o f t h a t we r e a l l y p r e f e r fra? th e " tim e b e in g j" aa lo n g a a w e 'o a n n o t,ifin d ..s a n S th in g ,_'i e l s e , t o e t i o k t o a , p ro d u ct w hich we know .very, w e l l . p wsOmowditSjiwSakassBem,' and. i t s s t r e n g t h s Ais' s n e o n e 'B edd^yesteiday-1;!- andi.,1 ; fo u n d th B B ^ ^ 'en iB o ; n i c a i t h a t - . i '''" ^ ^ t r y i n g , t o r e c o n c i l e t h e l 100 fibopo^ year.; ^ i t , 'w h ich w e l j ^ t t r j r f ^ S i t a l w p o f c t ^ ^ I ^ ' ' ^ ^ was w o n d erin g ^w h e th e r ti " o o it s 1 w l < h 1 .^ '1 B tt ! ax e , w ^ t * ^ f e i t e . o * > " n a n tB a s wj.1 aa th actu ad ; a s b e s to s ' q o u n tJ'aad V aa' f ib r e , I t ' L ac^e'ir, sJ a `th e o o u ts,' should"jthes^b, nrdeif* t o 'b r d n v t h I ' tin m m i n m h v u . l m l ? ,,a .X t-l. l l .i.-*-J _ Aii-U;; j u s t f i g u r e s th a t'h a p p e n e d , t'o-.eeme has aooum u.uted over a long p erio d . . * .vftSh/: : : : - \ o u t . o f ' c a l c u l a t i o n s . '^ T t l i s f p f i b r i y e a i v .i t i c - o f t i n e i I dotit a s y 't h i y ' r e i i i b n t a b l e i --- b u tI " /* '... -- Vi.. d/.- . ........... ........... ' '?!- ' HH th e y axe good* Because, where do th e y cone frcm ? They a re b ased on a c tu a l n e a s u ro n e n t o f f i b r e s vl t h f i l t e r a enhran m e th o d s, w h ich we h a v e b een d o in g i n " th e f a c t o r y s in c e 1969 F o r t h e y e a r s b e f o r e t h a t , t h e r e a r e scsne d a t a b y d i f f e r e n t m ethods --im pinging m ethods, which are not so good, b u t th e re are-B ase fig u res? an d f o r t h e y e a r s b e fo re 1950 t h e r e a r e a c t u a l l y n o d a t a , b u t vu' have e a s e e d u c a te d g u e s s e s , a s X th i n k you me n t l onedljcm tim e ago / " ^ A c t u a l l y , t h e s e f i g u r e s nay. b e wrong guesses - ouch too h ig h . ;V . - , ' ' THE CHAIRMAN* I t h in k th e y a r e n o t o n ly u n a c c e p ta b le -- t h e y ,se e m '& h i t u n b eliev a b le | in faot. DR BLOOKFTEU)I . The e a r l i e r t a b l e - y o u r f i r s t t e s t s -- show ed t h e p e r c e n ta g e o f . t h e work f o r c e i n th e d i f f e r e n t c o n c e n t r a t i o n s , an d a b o u t 60$6 o f t h e work f o r c e seem ed t o be i n th e m iddle g ro u p , which seem s t o .be a lo v e t h e h y g ie n e s ta n d a rd w h ich we a r e th in k in g o f , or. w hich we a r e w o rk in g t o a t p r e s e n t , Am X m is ta k e n on t h a t ? . .... ,. '!v : .../ ... v " - ^ DR LACQUET: The f a c t o r y ca n be r e g a r d e d a s h a v in g f o u r a r e a s ,; b u t / t h e f i b r e ' y e a r s th a t correspond to , or th a t one fin d s in , th ese a re a s,-b a v e been changing.over th e . y e a r s ? s o i f you have a c e r t a i n f i b r e c o u n t ,o f , s a y , tw o : o r . t h r e e t ; e r f c u r ,, i n ;.,v A rea P our, fiv e y ears ago one should m u ltip ly th a t. b y .tw o , 'ahd;.ten y ears a ^ p d g a i n b y tw o , r o u g h ly ; and f o r th e y e a r s im m e d ia te ly a f t e r t h e . War,', v e f e e l t h a t a ;fibr-e c o u n t o f se m e th in g l i k e 100 may have e x is te d * . Of c o u r s e ," rio-rone. h a s " a e a s u re d ' thea.'-* b u t when you reproduce a s im ila r atm osphere o f d u s tin e s s , " th a t ro u g h ly corresponds - - - . to 100 f ib r e s p er. cc* ' That i s where th e s e h ig h o o u n ts cone frcm * . I a g re e , th e y ~ may b e 2035,. 30J&,' o f f - b u t n o t 100 m a g n itu d e , I t h i n k . ^^ \ ~ .'.. - ... . -. . : .*yi '0/><ry- y u ^ j- r - KH BRABBDHU-. To f o llo w up y o u r p o in t s I on a l i t t l e o o n f u s d a b o u t '.t h e 'p o s i t i o n j r . a t th is v ery larg e fa c to ry , about working to the, lim it o f tv o .y lu n d e r s to o d th a t t h e r e were c e r t a i n problem s in o p e n i n g , w here i t was d i f f i c u l t , to , k eep -to t h a t .. . li m i t; '. but""what. I : am n o t c l e a r a b o u t i e : i n a / y e r y l a r g e f a o t o r y ,.'w h e t h e r 't h e r e 'ra x e -' ..... some a r e a s w here th e y do r u n c o n s i s t e n t l y 'w e llib e lo w .tw o --. maybe o n e ,, o n e y o r u . 5 , o r w h e t h e r 'i n f a c t th e whole f a c t o r y i s s t r u g g l i n g t o k e e p u n d e r "tw o.'jiX '.aa ^ o n ly p . :- s e e k in g in fo rm a tio n on th e g e n e ra l p o s itio n i n t h e f a c t o r y . ^ Xy second q u e s tio n i s m ore s p e c ifio ^ on a .r a th e r d e t a i l e d p o i n t b u t 'o n e o a w hich w ould ~likey.td-:>V'--u: d e a r my m i n d j i j.I t s a y s 'o n p ag e 78 of, y o u r ,e v i d e n c e ,- u n d e r ." B r id g e w a te r .P a n e la tl.td ," / " I t i s . p e r h a p s :;r e le v a n t:to n p t e f t h a t t h e ^ l k - , o f ; t h e i r , , c u t t i n g . "is ;.d q n e fcnnder^"water*;-'' t h u s v i r t u a l l y e l i n i n a t i n g ^ d u s t rl --.w hich Boema t o ' b e t h e ; aim". :.C ould, t h a t i n t i m e '. v - i . beoaoe sta n d a rd p ra c tic e ? -- o r a re th e re te c h n ic a l' d i f f i o u l t i o s ?. -f becau se X ythought1 you wonder why we s t i l l have seme p la c e s i n t h e 'f a c to r y , where we a r e ' able- to~w orkr below th e .two 'f ib r e s , and o th e r, p la c e s ' where i t : i s ' n o t .p o s s ib le '. . The' only d fl.co~'. i n th e f a o to r y wher e we ^ e f a o l n g t h i a problem ' o f to o h ig h oonoentratlonT la ^ h e i:'/'.- ; `p ixS e where we gpeh 't h a b a g s, and i t i s a te c h n ic a l problem;;-; The mine `i n d u s t r y i f iTeteod--o r havTng iianAarA packing --.th e y a re w orking on t h a t n o w , -but;, they. used,%/^jt o send sane bags i n paper bags,.`seme i n p l a s ti o ; b a g s t some in." j u t e , i and th e 'iii'-:yr.i-i5 d i f f i c u l t y , was t o fin d a maohine. which waa a d ap tab le. t o ' a ll^ k in d s:.'o f .row m a te ria ls y end p a ck in g , r I th in k i t i s a good p o in t f o r t h e DC i n d u s t r y , I m ust. o o n fessy t h a t ;i" ' you have .been' i t f t h e t ; p a rtic u la r- f i e l d te c h n ic a lly . q u ic k e r than^we have.been^gjfi'.* ^-ts N e ed le ss1't o sa y , w e'are now ru n n in g as f a s t aa.we. can t o ' cateh.' up v i t h you ie c h n io - a l l y on t h a t , ' and I h o p e t h a t i f w e h a v o th e p le a s u r 'o f s e c ln g y o u ;a tC o ttr ..f a b to r ie s ': one o f th e s e days','you w i l l t h e n s e e i h a t " .alo o wi 11 b e i n e v e r y 'p la c e , 'be'low:?/-- 5. . th e two f i b r e s . . Bat. I in s i s t ' on th e fa o t th a t'j" due t o th e ' weanring b f-th e aM lrsiyA^;.? th e re i s no danger ."^But w s a ie making alT/iEorneoessaiy'TfiveeffieSti.tbrw ittse; t h a t ; '' t h e e h ttr e r - f ie t'o r y 'is 'w ith in th e two: f ib re s ," and not J u s t .e o n e sp a rto of.it..y.tiy.;'i'-. i. / ` MR GILLHAMj T h is i s & s l i g h t m iononer, b ec a u se i n f a c t i t l a n o t " u n d e r w a te r" -- i t i s th e u se o f do u b le s p r a y in g , double j e t s , a t th e a c t u a l c u t t i n g b la d e , when i t goes through th e sh e e t. "Underwater" im plies subm arine a c tiv ity -- th a t i s not tru e . MR BRADBURY: I fm n o t b o th e re d about th e t e c h n i c a l i t i e s -- i f t h e r e i s a double j e t , co u ld t h a t n o t be u se d i n a more w id e -sp re a d w ay, t o re d u c e t h e d u s t i n a l l c u t t i n g , as a general p rac tic e ? " r - MR GILLHAMj The d e c is io n t o i n s t a l l th e we t p u t t i n g p r o c e s s was made I n th e e a r l y 19^0*8, when K apallo p ro duoed den se, thi% k m a te ria l and t h e 'o n l y f a c i S t T e s a t T h a i T im e was a w et c u t t i n g l a c i i i t y t h a t w ould be a b le t o g iv e n o t o n ly t h e ed g e , b ut th e a c c u ra c y . But sin c e t h a t tim e , th e developm ent o f d ry c u t t i n g m ethods and techniques have enabled independent c u tte rs and converters to adopt th a t procedure; th a t i s making th e v e t a c tu a l p ro cess, i f n o t o b so le te , s l i g h t l y a t a disad v an tag e. But i t was i n f a c t a p ro c e s s t h a t was e x p e d ie n t a t t h e t i m e , t h a t g av e us th e f a c i l i t y t o c u t b i g volum es q u io k ly and w ith accuracy* But. e v e n ts hav e now over tak en t h a t , djimftt- th e c u ttin g i s | done i n d ep en d en tly , w ith d ry proc^m-*. There i s no m a te r ia l advantage - a t th e tim e i t was ocm aercial* n e c e s s ity ,' th e r e was n o t th e a l t e r n a t i v e m ethod a v a i l a b l e . '7 7 ^ ` ~ ' MR BRADBURY: B ut th e d ry c u t t i n g i s more d u s ty ? ~ ., MR GILLHAM: The d r y c u t t i n g c r e a t e s i t -- b u t i n f a c t t h e p r o c e d u r e s f o r , d u s t e x tra c tio n are v ery adequate* ~ ^ ^ *" * PROP STAIRH&ND: I h ad two q u e s t io n s , b u t my f i r s t yo u h a v e j u s t an sw ere d - `b e c a u s e . I was v e ry s u r p r i s e d t h a t y o u c o u ld c u t a s b e s to s s h e e t i n g u n d e r w a t e r *> But t h a t v v '~ been, d e a l t w ith * My se c o n d q u e s t i o n i s : you m e n tio n e d th a t;/o n e o f . t h e b e u e f i t s ' ' - ' ; ^ - " o f a s b e s to s cem ent was t h a t i t , d i d n o t d e t e r i o r a t e s j H w ,^ I ^ h i n k f h a T :.tbere,>are * *\V c e r ta in oases where a f te r number o f y ears - e s ^ i ^ a l l y / i ^ i t ^ i ^ ^ ^ ^ B i d e 'g a r a g e '^ ^ : -whioh th e y want t o p a in t- .- a w o rtean , o r a d o - i t r y c u r s e lf ~ xn o rd e r .to get-TH g~ptdnftaint': 6 fr;. and .th e re . i s q u I t e ^ f o fe'or~^ Isth a t ' ........... ' 111 observation by Br S e lik o fff ;-w hi^,' i f you rcom b^~,7pre<^se^.)0tiofled^iihkt.ycnx^ sayv*i h e .vwaaSsA^t.atallkkding aboouutt,eroeion-: fVrocmm, aftfslbb#>efts-ftcro>f^l.o e m e n t^ a a d tb w r s a i i f 'th a t he* tew s. -* o f no o n e c a s e r o f people being- involved- w ith a ^ a a lw s ib s -ir e la t^ ^ d iB e a s e 'b y "e ro e io n c o f asbestos oecient* bZ think,onoj'of^the reasons. f w ^ th iir lis '/tf i ^ ^ ^ b e ;:lo c lc ^ - itt'^ * S r ^ a sp e ct --i t is , enda p e u l a t e d - . "contam inated" f t o u se P ro fe s f e P e r u y tte r ^ s ''w o r d t^ f t? '^ ^ and seoodly,;The d o fle -re la i'e d 'a s p e c t, because th e ^ p ix m tity rw h io h ^ ie v 'lib e ra t^ -W th atv i* & csrtain ly on th e 'v e ry low a ld e ? # y j\;* . ,**. ca wo r? PROP BEB0IWBRE* I f X may,*- Mr Van d e r R e st -- I t h i n k i t a s e n c a p e u la te d a s th e d u st: w hich we h a v e b e e n ^ tu d y in g iy ^ - ! ^ 1S1 1 % siS - > ' * ` *"'\t r ^ BR QUACK* y. I n o te th a t on pag e.76. you m ention th a t- b lu s ^ b M /is ^ h d if h b w ^ tis e d ' j S ^ i n t h e : U X ^"or,tn any- l a p o r t s ^ i a t o t h i s o o u n tr y i'C'I s i t * indeed~ s 0 ? 7 t h a t " t h e hb ltm S ^ v ? k . * m a 4 k . 1M m maJ ' 4 ~ ... . _ X. J I LJ ,, . ^ __________________J . . . _____________ * . ^ _fc.* *# Im portation goes , we have stopped, p u ttin g , b lu e .asb e sto s 'i n t o "tba'prbducrtV:!; t-'Joa know, Belgium i s a v e ry c a l l oovmtx^.-c\ n ^ p p i l v . - .'.1 -Sir- f' m a r k e t, and moat o f our i n d u s t r y i s l i v i n g from e x p o r t ., So.w e ere a c c u s to m e d .to .. a d a p t o u r p ro d u o t f o r e x p o r t t o t h e c o u n tr y t o w hich we a r e e x p o r t i n g i t ; i f th e UK m a r k e t, i n i t s own Judgem ent, f o r r e a s o n s w hich i t c o n s i d e r s .n e c e s s a r y ,' p r o h ib its blue asb esto s as an im port in th e ir prod u c ts, n e e d le ss, t o sa v our ' ' export produot also w ill hot lttol3 blue a sb estos - and th a t i s th e case to d a v .' T h a d o es n o t mean tS S 'l we a i e une hu n d red p e r c e n t' i n agrera e n i , w i t h a l l t h a th eo riee about blue esbestoe - even in th is oountry, as you know, -th ere a ie * r . d iv e rg e n t o p in io n s. Our opinion on b lu e a sb e sto s i B baaed o n 'f a c ts - ve have one fa c to ry which i s a very good example, ag ain our fa c to ry i n H o lla n d ;'th e re ve have i n th e same p ro d u c tio n h a l l two p ip e m achines, and two sh e e t m ac h in e s. >ite -a re u sin g b lu e a sb e sto s fo r th e p ip e m achine. But th is b lu e a s b e s t o s .i s I n oneT bui'ldI n g a n a , a s " you h ave ,s e e n , a f t e r T o r t y y e a r s we have n o t h a d one known o a se f r r a e i t h e r a s b e s t o e i s , c a n o e r , o r me a o th e llo m a . So o u r o p in io n oh t h e h l t i e , h a s e T l S 2 : th o s e f a c t s , 'w i t h t h i s r i b r e , i f ve r e s p e c t th e two f /o o (w h ic h i s e n t i r e l y t h e '' case i n H o llan d ), th a t th e re would be no r i s k f o r .th e h e a l t h of. t h e w orkers . - MR OILLHAM: Mr C hairm an, I t h i n k t h e r e may h ave b e e n a s l i g h t i~ isu n d e M ta n d in g ~ i n t h e i n t e r p r e t a t i o n o f th e q u e s t io n . Was t h e q u e s t io n , a t a n y t i m e was i t . u s e d a t M e ld re th ? - i t w as. I t was u se d b e tw e e n .1958 an d 1965. --T h a t i s o n r e c o r d , t o . t h e Ccram ittee - I th in k th e r e was a m isu n d e rsta n d in g , aa t o v h e th e r _ iit~ i* used,now '. I thought I should c la rify th a t. ' ...i ___ " ' . *c A 'i v V 'fe-JK: -Sg, ' THE CKAIPXA1T: Does t h a t make a n y d i f f e r e n o e t o what y c u v a n t e d t o s a y , B r 'G i l c o n ? ` ' - . af'..,-- r t Sw * BR GILSON: . I h ave J u s t one o t h e r q u e s t io n , w hich I w o u ld ;-lik e to - ta o w :'v f c a t'- a b o u t T th e records a t the M eldreth faotory? * p e rio d ? Ms VAN DER REST: I .d o a t w e n t.to open a n u m b r e l l a , b e c a u s e . t h a t - i i ^ n o t a y h a b i t i.;-- b u t wo s a y .t h a t we .to o k , t h a t f a c t o r y over., o n ly , one y e a r a g o jv a n d 'a a ifa r - a s S w e lk n o w '* . .th e r e . i a .o n ly . one known ,case .of. a e b e a to s is , and-we .knoK th a t'it h o .t i n s p e o t i o n s - a r e t ; ; ' ' norm ally made. I could go in to , more d e ta il,, a s -fa r. a s th is .,fa c to ry .'is P c p n c e rn e d i.1 f .a g a in ^ M r .O illiiraa, who knows moors a b o u t . i t , Xoould ; o e r t a i n l y a d d > o a a t h i i i g , . i M i i '^ ^ ' ' -~.V- 4^ MR OILLHAMI.; P e rh a p s .t h i s i s a r e s u l t o fib a d - e c m m u n i c a t i o n s I ^ i ^ t ^ m b ^ ' & t a i i i s S i h f a c t ^ r e q u i r e d ? : ,.We s e n t , ; a s , ..r e s u lt,.o f ,.y o u r'S u p p le m e n ta x y v q u e rtib n n a ix & tlie 'p ^ q u e s tio n , o f, dib it, m e a s u re m e n ts ,..th e ..d 8 ta ile d ;a a a ly B iB S o f. p e o p l e . ^ > i ^ ^ t H b i ^ ,iO T ii5 '''''" >: . v . l . . : ------. - - - - 7 : . V ' --J ^ . ( e w a w s . t y abo u t^ th o people, between, .19&3 .are^ se v ra li.p o itfe a ^ > o K t^ th a t'^ ^ ^ ^ A g a in a t^ th a t a p p a re n tly h ig h f i b r e y e a rs of, expeTxre,~yotx> have -*h s*T *ry r e s u l t s . ^ B u t even a p a rt from .asbestos-.exposure a lto g e th e r, tha-ilung'^cancer S-Sk^rAi < fig u re s a re v e ry a n a lly Can you t o l l met-was th a t- th e ;r e p o r tr o f m an a alix m -lstiM i.'' exam ination, o f e x is tin g - s t a f f i n - t h s f a o t o r y ? .- t h a t i s P o in t OneliElHhatrhappSnsorr, t o th o se who l e f t d u rin g th o s e .13 ye sriiilw ere>th e^ iB o lm d sd t m w ei'tlw ,1's ie d le s ? i:S?#i " d what,, happened^to th o se who. have re tir e d ..* jr in g .th a t:.tim e j . DR ItfNCANY^iIV purp o rt* only ^to workers:,n o tu n lly ; s tJ DR IACQPET*, Teefci- t b e e ;f i g u r e ;* h a t X havoishowa* -B R ..n n rcA H r;i3 o > ll those,W ho l e f t ,`'o- r y e tir e df 'w ouIdi ' r .-y* ** . . S u * . *>s,> * B !P / 1 DR LACQUET: No. X t r i e d to t r a c e them , san e y e a r s ag o , ta r t I r a n i n t o c o n s id e r a b le d i f f i c u l t y ; b ut n e v e r t h e l e s s , o f 673 r e t i r e d p e o p le who a r e s t i l l a l i v e , 54 w ere s t i l l w orking i n th e f a c t o r y , and th o s e a r e p e o p le who h ave b e e n w orking i n t h e f a c to r y b e f o re 1940, th e y e a r s when th e s i t u a t i o n waa p ro b a b ly muoh w o rse, r e a l l y b a d . So 54 were s t i l l w o rk in g . I was a b le t o exam ine a n o th e r 104, and 1 fo u n d a few p le u ra l plaques and th in g s lik e t h a t , b u t no a s b e s to s , and no o an o er. , Those of c o u rse a r e p e o p le who a r e s t i l l l i v i n g , an d w ere w orking t h e r e b e f o r e 1940. ' ; r ;' / . , THE CHAIRMAN: May I a s k you a q u e s tio n ab o u t d u s t e m iss io n s frcm y o u r f a c t o r y ? In paragraph 2 .4 on page 77 o f your evidence, you d e a l w ith d ls p o s a l'o f w aste, b u t you d o n 't m en tio n how d u s t em issio n s, frcm th e f a c t o r y a r e p r e v e n te d . Can y o u t e l l us how t h i s i s a c h ie v e d ? - an d how you m o n ito r t h e s e d u s t e m iss io n s? MR VAN DER REST: You B ean, t h e d u s t e m issio n s com ing o u t o f t h e f a c t o r y i n t o th e . outBide world? THE CHAIRMAN: Y.ve.s.. : "i,;: : . . ..................`.-......-l'ifWbCt.r'- -i'viVwCe-. rw 7. MR VAN HER REST: I am s o r r y t o a g a in g iv e yo u t h e f i g u r e s we have' f o r B elgium , b u t we have made seme m easurem ents frcm th e d u s t c o n te n t J u s t i n th e p a r k in g a r e a ' around th e f a c to r y , and we have found th e r e f i g u r e s o f . 0 4 . f i b r e s , to .0 6 - . t h a t : - waa i n th e f a c t o r y i t K a p e l l e , an d i n th e f a c t o r y i n H olland, we have a n ev en lo w e r., f i g u r e , o f .001 up. t o ' .0 0 1 6 . So th e , c o n c e n tr a tio n o f f i b r e , '^ s h o u l d . Bay, o u t s i d e - - the factory - i f that: i s th e question you raiB e ' . v .- THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. T-] -"k 37' 5y St-i/ir m u* MR VAN DER BEST: . . . . . 1 a b s o lu te ly a t a lower le v e li.th a n :in s id e th e f a c t o r y . 'l . I t ' may be o f i n t e r e s t , to o -- becau se t h i s i s m ed ically .co rm eo t e d v i t h i h is problem , " a re th e re any dlBeaaea aroundT th e fa c to ry r a th e r th a n ri n i,ehob!Hy,,:rurai &rea?'1 - I would l ik e to m ention 4; i t is v'a lim ite d s t u d y w i ^ c h 'i ^ w l y ^ w if d i a n 6 t m en tio n ;!''5' i t i n our re fe re n c e s, : b u t we have made a stu d y o f th e.-n u m b er'o f d ise a se s of. .th e people liv in g te n kLlsmairea (about s ix and h a lf m iles) a ro m a i;th e 'fa c to ry .^qm .,o^'.4f2^. s id e , and th e nunber o f .d isea se s - lu n g oanoer, o r any cancer'. --!,o f "people i'-in g '.in -.^ iiS 'fS ' aA Mr uBraA 1l ae eriea ae w h iaoUh .4istM.2 Q 0 Ikwil l?o--meItMr e is, ' ,aaBw.Baeyw froAmBN .4.t>hV ee ^fah ca t4oB.rWy. . i_-'_--1 !.,wflVhJiwoaleh"*41s2aaVbou1t ItLh .e' a g ; '. '', , / . . . W , A l e mUB. maximum d is ta n o e you p an go; i n B o lg ia , w ith o u t l e a v i n g my e o u n try j.-iC ia n i i n b o t h - i ? . . . . . Ail. . . . V . . ' ' .... ?... 4-t._ _ j 'l ' 1i J-' .11Vs ' o f a s b e s to s o e m e n t'an d '* it r a i s e s . j t h e " p o e n i b i l i t y ,t h a t ,.,w e i ^ r i i f o r ; ; ; f e i^ it, i t h e i r i s k f ' l . j . j j due t o a s b e s to s i n oem ent i s . l e s s , h a z a r d o u s th a n f r e e f i t e e . '; C an.you p e rh a p s' g iv e l-"'7" you would l i k e ' t o knriw'what i s l o u rlo p in lo n '.a s .yn.'o o n e id e r ^ th a tj M heBtos:.cem e n t i is.. '. n o t so dan g ero u s a s t h e r m a t e r i a l a , ' B h o u ld ^ th re b e , , d i f f ^ ^ i r i ^ s ^ i i i 'asb eo J.o S f/' ' oement th an fo r o th e r m a t e r i a l s -- i s '.th a t .your. q u e s t i o n T p ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ g ^ ^ . mm 5 ' DR MOLYTTEDDC: Y es, i t i s . vC*v* +%" HR. WS DBtlipST*..' I t 'qrw stion.-t'tbi -pp^ew & thatf I an l i t t l e co n fu ee ^abot.,thD fiiiflwej;; vhich.1^ sh o u ld - g- iv e y w y iil^ h o a ld .'B a y h a t . 3 . d ip lo m a tic a lly t h a t siy .a tw jsu rs ytotch i s na e d'*ie a"ll"y ! to. S f ip lp i SmS V.: a * i n s i s t on t h e f a c t t h a t ''m e d ic a lly pro v ed " s h o u ld be t a k e n , as regards asbestos c e m e n t, w hich i s o f o o u rse t h e i n d u s t r y w hich wo havB B tu d ie d i n . d e t a i l , we a r e c o n v in c e d t h a t w ith t h e 2 f / c o t h e r e i s no danger* But . i n n j r . o p i n i o n , `w i t h t h e o t h e r i n d u s t r i e s , i f t h e y a r e a l s o r e s p e c t i n g t h i s 2 * f / c c , , I d o n ' t 'see" a n y r e a s o n why th e danger sh o u ld be g r e a te r f o r them th a n i t i s f o r ''u s . DR MOLYNEOIj So I am t o o o n c lu d e you a r e happy t o u s e t h e s a m V 's o r V o f s a a p l i a g " te c h n iq u e f o r asb esto s f i b r e in a i r , whloh i s p re se n t in th e a s b e s to s cem ent, and th a t you are happy to use th e sane hygiene standard? . ' XR VAN DER REST: Y es. ' . .' , " l' 1 ^ THE CHAIRMANI Would you l i k e t o make some f i n a l rem ark s t o th e Committee n o w ,' Mr Van d e r R e s t? ^ MR VAN DER REST: T h is i s n o t in te n d e d t o in f lu e n c e yo u -- b u t I w o u ld o n l y l i k e t o r e p e a t t h a t we to a a y a r e ^ n o t l i v i n g s e p a r a t e l y xn t n e w o r ld , b u t e a c h one o f u s ' i s p a r t o f a l a r g e r w o rld ; a n d I w ould l i k e t o s a y once m ore t h a t t h e d e o i s i o n w h ic h v: y o u t a k e h e r e , f o r t h e U3t, w i l l h ave i t s i n f lu e n c e a l l o v e r:;th e w orld,"- a n d 'm a n y people w ill be bound by th e d e c isio n which you ta k e . I t i s e a s y ''fe a r,c o u n trie s .'.-: who h av e s e e n how c a r e f u l l y yo u have s t u d i e d "th problem" ..to,'sa a n .^ th e U M ,h a s s t u d i e d th i s ', i t has made i t s . d e c is io n , I don't need -to.make a n y .,s t.i^ ,':Z ;c i- j u s t copy it" * .a-;..-*--: - , v: "w *- We a r e co n v in ced to d a y , t h a t t h e 2 f / c o . I s s a f e . - I - g a v e y o u ^ th e l,f ig u r e s f o r ^ v jt- - -- H e l d r e t h , I gave you t h e f i g u r e s f o r K a p a lle ~ where, we a c c e p t t h a t w .-do h a v e 'jsaae d is e a s e , due to th e f a c t that" th p e o p le .th e re have been erp o eed "to "highier- le v ls t h a n t h e 2 f / o c . . We h av e no e a s e s i n th o s e 23 c a s e s o f p e o p l e / s u f f e r i n g fre m --.1 'a s b e sto s disease . Goor* ' ; I Have* re a d w _ ,, , _ . _______ t h a t i t is 'n e c e s s a r y to " go below 2 f / c c / v l i h v e s e e n 'a l o t J o f ^ 0 3 ^ r a ^ l a t i o n : ~ ,,but n o f 'b e i n g a* m edi c a l m an, I r e a l l y . b e H e v e \ t h a t ; e x tr a p o la tio n * h t h l s ^ f i I d , 4*H AMfl 1AM M^ 1 HU A M A 1 MAA----*MMl^ A "**4 Ai* AAMAX t HAm' aJ.J aIi AAA^A.^ J airy 'a1."-- a.^ a1 t A -- - So,; our.1" fin a l reccmmendation. is^ th e.t"o n e :should s tlc k /to - th e - a c t u a r norms ^ a g re e w ith t h e ' people who sa y ' t h a t ' 2. f / c o ; h a v e : to ^ b e 'r e s p e ^ ^ '^ n d ^ t ,y c m d 'Sjiggest^f - t h a t y o u r Committee sh o u ld make^the^ law oeore- a rtrie t ',":.to^'ensure^t ^ t ^ e ^ ^ o o e ^ V ^ ^ j; re s p e c ts " th 2 f / c c . V' We wi 1I s a v e n a r e ; t ima*/'and ~b e 'm d r a '^ a f f ^ tr f c iy ^ ^ .y g ;tS q[q m r " 3 \ A, tn e r g y f . n o t t o stu d y new n o rm sb u t-to -'m a k e su re "that- ih -n o M s\ v h ic h y o u .h a v ' 3 v <* "gg .;put a s a n example f o r .t h e w orld -in ; the\HET- which.-has "be e n 'g tu d ie d t- -which, i a ^ ^ ng" -, *A^ 1 Y AM AAfl . 4 A Ma4*\MMAHAM-^4 MHr"BMWHMMMAMa4 Atfli AaJ mW^Ii'a' AA--_1 A* ^ T" 'B u t- le t"u re in fo rc e th e o o n tro lv h ic i'y c rQ nd^l^agM t t l f .'th i.^ tits ie f u n n y t e c h n i c a l 'word - " o o n tro lA 'th e :'e o w h o ^ " 7 v 'f ''^ ! M > S f '^ S f e tS 8 .,< S ^ ^ s S i ' :'*--- j - V , .. I f I may nay in conclusion! .th a t ooaing frce i'th e C o n tin e n t^ T lir e a liy .a iiir e i'.w ay i n whioh t h i s m ee tin g haa -been'oonduoted - i t hao;)io tiy a ti|'''o f;o o i e iS f n H h 8 I waa d e ep ly 'in p re B se d h y t h e 'v i y i n which'th a'D n io n a 'i''th a X # " <i^.LorM fri^ 'A h .o y i'' em ployer, a re Korkin^- together^--; X r e a l l y HMnk' tb at;^ e ^ w y ;.in ^ o l^ :y o ti|.B ^ s: y" '? ' fu n i T10>'+.V*t Ml >wk-fja 4VI .4.)ia TST." an4 '+W -4 m' f'AaM^V M. ' ; H in t i s my hope - th a t, i n t h e f u t u r e we w illre ra c s n 'b e r '- th e a a 'h e u tc c --emd--h e a l t h ; . v-. aa- a p r o h le n w hieh h aa b e e n e c lv e d h y -ev ery o n e ak in g ' 'sa; f f r t t o u n d j t t o } " ^ h ^ p opi_nat , . e. af i-~.vxLtnt. o -f o.t.h. e. r. .s i .n .. tAhAa. ........................ . w . .. i m i 'f - - ~ : 4 afg p & m