Document 6R5oDaLGobkq6YmrneYZmKD61
FILE NAME: Saranac 7th Symposium (SSY) DATE: 1952 DOC#: SSY041
DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Transcript of Presentation by Mr. Wisely with Discussion
TAKES SS M PAGE 697,
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o f m in s, o f c o u rs e , t h a t 's th e o n ly r e a s o n I c o u ld t e l l him t h a t . He s a i d , " A ll r i g h t , O tto , i f y o u d o n 't t h i n k you could go, b u t I th in k you should go ", and I'm v e ry happy t h a t P a u l In d u c e d th e G overnor to o r d e r me to a t t e n d t h i s sym posium .
S h o re I~ a n o t h e r r o a s o n why I am h ap p y t o b e horoj Very e a rly a f t e r the o c c u p a tio n a l d is e a s e law was a d o p te d , | becam e e f f e c t i v e , on J u ly 1 s t , 1941* i n U ta h , my f i '- s t a l l i - j co sia h earin g found u s w ith very fow, i f any, men, ir r d o a l j men who know a n y t h in g a b o u t s i l i c o s i s . T h e re was one n x cap tio n to th a t, and t h a t 's the gentlem an who, th is day, i s s t i l l the p io n e er in In d u s tria l m edicine, and one o f outs tanding ex p erts in th e d iso aso o f pneum oconioses, end t h a t ' s D o c to r P a u l S . R ic h a r d s , and h e s u g g e s te d t h a t -jo h&4 b a t t e r l a y a f o u n d a ti o n , a n d wo d id *
" a had D octor Roy G ardner, D octor G eorge W rig h t, fro m S x ra n a c a n d D o c to r E u s s e y , who a t t h a t ti m e , w a s wavO Johns-H opki.ns. They d id a s p le n d id jo , and I w ant to say to t h e s e men t h a t t h a t c a s e , th e F r a r c a c a s e , n e v e r d i d go to th e Supreme C o u rt. I t was to o damned w e ll d o n e, la id the fo u n d atio n f o r a l l fu tu re h e a rin g s , and w e 're deeply in d e b te d to th e se th ree gentlem en an * to th e p io n e e rin g work th a t D octor P aul R ich ard s d id .
jfy g ra n d d a u g h te r f r e q u e n t l y f e l l s me t h a t p&ti>^n
ia a v ir tu e . W ell, I have been p a tie n t a l l w eek. I had a
-o-
_______ _______________________ __________________________________6 2 ia J ____
l o t o f Q u e s tio n s t h a t pop p ed up In ray m in d , as t h e v a r io u s speakers paraded across th is platform * b u t a l l those Q uestions were ask ed . P a tie n c e , you s e e , b u t n o t a l l o f them ware a n s w e re d , as you w e ll knew*
Now, I hav e b e e n a sk e d to s p e a k t o y o u b r i e f l y on th e same s u b je c t th a t h as been d is c u s s e d ,fro m the v ie w p o in t]
| o f m anagem ent, an d t h i s w i l l b e r a t h e r a p e c u l i a r way t o ex-* p re s s th e view p o in t o f m anagem ent, b ecau se you w ill n o t u n d er s t a n d o u r p h ilo s o p h y an d o u r p r o c e d u r e s u n l e s s y o u come to U tah . I t ' s easy to r e a d a law and you may i n t e r p r e t i t as you th in k any law yer o r any c o u rt would in t e r p r e t i t , h u t yon-d b e t t e r n o t p ass judgm ent on th e U tah o c c u p a tio n a l d is e a s e d i s a b i l i t y law u n t i l you come to U tah find s e e u s i n a c tio n , see what w e've done.
Now, v;a have a b o u t 3 0 ,0 0 0 r e p o r t a b l e i n j u r i e s i n th e s t a t e e v e ry y e a r, n o t many o f them o . d .'s * Of c o u rse , and o f th a t number l a s t y e a r only 78 w ent to a form al h e a r in g , n o t a b ad r e c o r d , I w ould ju d g e . S in c e we aa en d ed th e 31 a t u t s , and c r e a t e d oi ? m e d ic a l p a n e l f o r o c c t a t i o n a l oj.3 t e a s t : , p a r t i c u l s i l y f o r s i l i c o s i s , tn r s a ana. a n a i f y e a rs ago, nob one s in g le case has gono to th e Supreme Coori- of th e S ta te o f U tah and n o t once d id e ltn o r p a rty q u e stio n th e ir.odieax f in d in g s mid th e d ia g n o s is o f our m e d ic a l p an el*
f t s o n ly foi-.'nal h s B rin g ws havQ had in an o ccu -- ;
p :o n al d ise a se case in th e l a ' t fou. ,~ears, posed only one
700. .
q u e stio n and th a t was the degree o f d is a b ility w hich, of
c o u rs e , was v ery in te r e s tin g to me. I took the p o s itio n
t h a t a n a n who i s r a t e d 3 e v e n t y - f i v e p e r c e n t d i s a b l e d ,
s h o u ld be rafcod t o t a l l y d is a b le d i f , f o r no o th e r re a s o n ,
them th a t a man s e v e n ty - f iv e p e r c e n t d is a b le d c e r t a i n l y i s
n o t on the la b o r m arket a f t e r th a t#
Aa f a r as r a t i n g h i s d i s a b i l i t y , wo h a v e no p a r
t i c u l a r t r o u b l e , Vo d o n ' t c o n te n d t h a t we'r e r i g h t a lw a y s .
Vs'e t h i n k we go w i t h i n t e n p e r c e n t e i t h e r w ay, g e n e r a l l y .
The p a r t i e s seom to b e s a t i s f i e d end, a f t e r a l l , t h a t 's th e
im p o r ta n t t h i n g , i f y o u make an a w a rd , }.? to s a t i s f y fell
a p p l i c a n t t h a t ho h a s r e c e i v e d eno u g h money, so wo g e t
along very n ic e ly in th a t re s p e c t.
A nother th in g about our p rocedure, and a l l the
way th ro u g h n y o u m ig h t a s w e ll bo th in k in g o f m anage
m en t, a s 1*11 chow you i n j u s t a few m in u te s , t h i s i s man-
s.gcrrcsnta v ie w p o in t, we b e li& v e , i n sp oedy a c t i o n .
I f th s H eferes -- I only have one a t th is tin e -- i i
doesn' t g et the rough d ra ft o f h is proposed fin d in g s of faclj
an t c o n c lu sio n s o f law to ns w ith in te n days a f t e r lie h e a rs j
a c a s e , I 'n jy .g t o g e t a new R e f a r o e , snd t h a t d e c i s i o n !
is o u t in the n a il w ith in t w anty-four hours a f t e r the Refers
fin a lly sends
i the f in a l proposed fin d in g s of f a c t ana ;
conclusions of law .
I undorst-and that some cases in some s tat a have
.701,
been p e n d in g f o r y e a r s . I f t h a t h ap p e n e d i n U ta h . v e * d g e t a new co m m issio n , new r e f e r e e , new e v e r y t h in g . The - i t j u s t d o e s n 't make s e n s e . C tr p ro ced u re is e x tre m ely s in p la an d I b e l i e v e la w s t h a t we h a v e , p a r t i c u l a r l y th e o . d . la w and th e amendments in th e l a s t few y e a rs , have the com plete and alw ays have had th e com plete approval o f m anagem ent.
As t. m a t t e r o f f a c t , X m ig h t t a l l you h a r e a t tii-ih
p o in t th a t sin e,
four successive le g is la tiv e sessions^
very law p e r ta in in g to la b o r and in d u s try com pensation, j
law s and la b o r lew s, wore su b m itted to the Sonata e A xka j I
H ouse, in apereod form w ith a l e t t e r accom panying th e bil-s.* j
We d o n 't vjant any am endm ents. We c a n ' t e v e n c r o s s a T o r
d o t a n i . a w a n t t h o s e la w s p a s s e d j u s t th e way we h a n d
tlism to th e S e c re ta ry o f th e S enate and the C lerk o f th e h o u se, and I hope w e 'lx succeed In doing th a t the nejet cessio n ,
Wow, seme o f you m ig h t t h i n k t h a t In t h a t k in d 01
* rie a l, la b o r would g e t th e s h o r t end. T hat i3 not tr u e . In ev ery d in g le inB t& nce, la b o r has r e c e iv e d more th an th e y r - - m a s te d In many, many r e s p e c t s , and th e n e t r e s u l t h as
a lw a y s b e e n a law t h a t i s c o m p le te ly u a t i s f a c t o : . ' a t t h e j
moment and l a t e r on f o r th a t m a tte r, to b o th s id e s .
j
how, r.s f a r a s m e d ic a l p ro b le m s o re c o n c e r n e d , wej
d o n 't have any tro u b le w ith th a t e ith e r . I f I catch a doc-,
t o r who d o e s n 't t e l l th e t r u t h , and some o f them do n o t , ;
some o f them a re j u s t p l a i n ig n o r a n t , you know, b u t sc :e o f
thorn J u s t d o n 't t o l l th e t r u t h , a l l we do i s s e n d th e t r a n
s c r i p t o f the testim ony to th e U tah S ta te M edical gooiefcy
and th e B o*rd o f C en so rs makes s h o r t work o f any man who
g iv e s ua any r id ic u lo u s te stijn o n v . To g iv e y o u a n e x a m p le , i f y o u sa y t h i s w o u l d n 't
h a p p e n , i t d id . A man wan h i t in th e m outh, lo o s e n e d a
co u p le o f te e th and I th in k they ware a lre a d y lo o sen ed b e
cause he had a v ery bad case o f p y o rrh e a , w ent to a d e n tis t|
A d e n t i s t pxxlled a c o u p le o f t e e t h , b l e d a l i t t l e b i t , swal-V-swa^
th e p y o r r h e a i n f e c t e d b l o o d . One o f o u r d o c t o r s to o k ta o
w itn e s s a la n d end under* o atK , t e s t i f i e d t h a t t h i s man d o -
a " t'~ " * 1
c.or th a t had rea ch ed th e n e a r p e r fora-* j I
t i o n s t a g e in t h r e e w eek s* The oyoi'r h o a germ d i d i t . X
t r i e d t o t -V-e him o f f th e hook by t o l l i n g h im , w hy, w h at
y o u r s e x l y mean i s t h a t ha h ad an u l c e r a n d he germ s - :* rt
o f a g g r a v a te d i t , e f f e c t e d i t a l i t t l e b i t * Ho d i d n ' t
sw allow th a t hook e i th e r . o I s e n t a r e c o rd to th e M edi
c a l A dvisory h o ard , They c e lle d him in , I moan th e S ta te
r a d i c a l S o c i e t y , They c a l l e d him i n , and ho s a i d , ,JI "tea. *tj
say i t " . They showed him tb s t r a n s c r i p t . lie s a i d , "!sfellf ^ I guess X a id , s h o u ld n 't have gone q u ite th a t strong**. They |
fu,,.
s a i d , w a l l , "Why d id you 2ay i t " . W ell h e s a y s ? T h e g u y t o l r e ho l i v e d i n a t r a i l e r camp end I -wanted to h e lp h is r* . ;
vou s e e , th e re was a d o c to r t h a t was p rr d i c i n g econom y in i
t h a t mo d i d m o. *rfe h a v e h ad a few l i k e t h a t , an d a s I a a y , ,
-- 74*4
we make s h o r t w o rk o f them*
0.f c o u r s e , lio re i s a s e c r e t # I*m a la w y e r u n t i l
r e c e n tly a member o f the law sc h o o l f a c u lty o f th e U n iv er
s i t y o f U tah and a l o t o f o th er c iv ic jo b s, and I w ant ev ry
law y er to mice a liv in g , b u t i f you are p r a c tic in g law in
U tah and you depend on w orkm en's com pensation fe e s fo r a
liv in g , w ell you w ouldn' t e/o n p ay your o f f ic e re n t* Our
fe e s a re v ery lo w . There are tim e s, how ever, when a law yer
w i l l make s o m e th in g o u t o f n o t h i n g , os we s a y , an d we w i l l
pay him , order a s u b s ta n tia l fe e p aid him . Now. how do we a c c o m p lis h a l l t h i a ?
j
i For exam ple, ,
th e U ta h O c c u p a tio n a l D is e a s e D i s a b i l i t y Law h a s a d e f i n i
t i o n . W& d o n ' t l i k e d a f i n i t i c n a i n U ta h . Mb d o n ' t h a v e
any tro u b le w ith them . e do have one d e f in itio n , and th a t
i s th e d e f in itio n o f d isab lem en t. D isablem ent la do fin e d
i n a b i l i t y to c a r r y on any g a i n f u l work o r o c c u p a tio n f o r I
rem uneration o r p r o f it.
j
W e ll, s i r , you '.now, f o r e le v e n y e a r s , th e r e h a s !
n o t b ean one em ployer in Utah th a t has e v e r r a is e d th a t
I
j
d e f e n s e and -they c o u ld hav e dona i t i n e v e ry damned c a s e we I
h a d . Now, t h a t ' s th e a t t i t u d e o f th e e m p lo y e r. Sicca t h i n g j
on d i s a b i l i t y . I n o u r s t a t e , a man m ust become t o t a l l y
i
d is a b le d w ith in two y e a r s , n o t from th e l a s t b I o f e x p o s u re , b u t fro m th e l a . ; day o f em ploym ent. a n a then he 1S o n e |
m ere y o a r i n w h ic h to f i l e a c l a im . A widow has s in KOmtl"3 .
IQ k^
In a ::ase o f d e a th , to f i l e a c laim .
ye a lso lava in U tah, a com pulsory au to p sy law ,
f o r b o th W. C. an d 0 . D. I t h a s b o o n e x tr e m e ly h e l p f u l
and I'm g e ttin g back to th is m ed ical p a n e l now. I'm n u ts
about the ra d ic a l p a n e l, in f a c t , so auoh so th a t I'm going
to ; k th e n e x t c e ssio n o f th e l e g i s l a t u r e t ' amend th e
W orkm en's C o m p en satio n A c t t o a u t h o r i z e me t o a p p o i n t a
m edical p an el to determ ine d isp u te d rssd ical q u estio n s in
accid en tal in ju ry cases,
ise a l s o la v e a n e n - s t a t u t o r y m e d ic a l a d v i s o r y
b o a rd th a t exam ines s e a who c la im th e y h ave a p e rm a n e n t
p a r tia l d is a b i lit y fo llo w in g re c o v e ry and th ey m eet on
F r i d a y s , exam ine th o s e m en, rocorsxtiend r a t i n g t o u s and we
always a c c e p t th e ir r a t i n g . In elev en y e a rs I have been cn
th e Cc.-'-thission, n o t o n e o f t h o s e h a s gone to a Suprem e Cour-ti
and we L-vve h a d l e s s t h a n s i x _ th at kind of procedure*
lew , you v-lght sa y ,
j
f o r m a l h e a r i n g s g ro w in g o u t oxj
i j I w e ll, y o u 're e ith e r te r r ib ly j
dumb i n U ta h , e m p lo y e r s , e m p lo y e e s , l a b o r u n i o n s , m e d ic a l j
s o c i e t y , and so o n , T h a t i s n ' t th e c a s e a t a l l . We h a v e j
t r i e d to do, and w e've acco m p lish ed i t , I th in k , i s to d a - j
c re a s e , to an ir r e d u c ib le minimum, th e d i s t m e e th a t so f r e
er n t l y e x i s t s b etw ee n l a b o r an d n. a g e m e n t, t . co m m issio n
and l a b o r an d : ...ag em er.t, th e c o m m issio n a n d th e m edic*,!
s o c i e t y , an." so on.
're friends of ours.
- Z 05j
Now, th e y f i g h , l i k e K a il o v e r o t h e r la b o r p r o b
le m s , b u t when i t comes to w orkm en*s c o m p e n s a tio n , o c c u
p a tio n a l d isease law s, as I have a lre ad y to ld you, they
work to g e th e r hand in hand in a v ery frie n d ly manner and
p re s e n t to th e le g is la tu r e , th e changes in the law th a t behh
p a r tie s b e lie v e , experience has tau g h t us should come. Now, on t h i s q u e s ti o n o f r e h a b i l i t a t i o n , T ed , takaj
a n o th e r m in u te i s a l l , we a re j u s t h o g in n in g t o t h i n k a b o u t
i t , because o u r perm anent p a r t i a l d i s a b i l i t y law f o r o.d*
cases has given us a l i t t l e headache. T hat, too, I th in k
wa can s o l v e , p e r h a p s w ith o u t any l e g i s l a t i o n * Wo c o u ld
gUoct a couple of in su ran ce a d ju sto rs and our atto rn ey s in
U ta h , th e r e a r e o n ly two o u t o f e i g h t y - f i v e , and i t i s n ' t
one o f th em , we w o u l d n 't h av e any t r o u b l e . T h o se c a n who a r e p e rm a n e n tly p a r t i a l l y d is a b l e d
and so r a te d , th ey go b ack to work In a mine i f th e p a n e l
s a y s t h e y s h o u ld * They go to w o rk an y w n ere i n via
of
U ta h , b u t th e y h av e two in s u r e ic e c a r r i e r s who j u s t r a i s e
p a r t i c u l a r K e l l , an d so we h a v e n o t a c o m p e n s a tio n p ro b le m ,
no d if f ic u lty d eterm in in g th a t they*re p a r tia lly d isa b le d j
o r what the d eg ree o f d is a b ility i s , b u t they cava back to :
^ from P a rk C i t y , th e CIO S te e lw o rk e r s man, h e n a y s , "H ell,!
C o, th e guy c a n 't g e t a jo b ; what a re you g o in g to do w ith
h im " ? W e ll, t h a t ' s th e q u e s t i o n I 'm n u l l i n g a ro u n d i n ray :
m in d , an d n o t lo n g a g o , and i t h t h i s same e m p lo y e r a g a i n ,
.7|V^V.Iu`
-'-'iff-
th e S e c r e t a r y o f th e ~Tta h M in e rs A s s o c i a t i o n , and th e S e c
r e ta r y o f th e Calcium A ssu re rs A ss o c ia tio n , and s a id , ^Ctrto,
i vhen you g e t b a c k , youre n o t g o in g to have any more t r e b l e !
I w ith th o s e p erm an en t p a r t i a l d i s a b i l i t y c a s e s . The p a n e l
s a y s th e y c a n w ork som ew here; we *11 s e e t h a t th e y do1*.
Thank you.
Bl- FR. WKTB3S
I t* a a w o n d e rfu l way when y o u con h e a r a Commis
s io n e r t a l l th a t ty p e o f s t o r y . I do n o t have to rem ind
th is audience th a t the re s p o n s ib ility and ro le of the r a d i
c a l d ir e c to r o f our modern c o rp o ra tio n s is im p o rta n t. The
p h y s ic ia n who la s tic o o s a fu l i n t h a t r o l e i s m ore th a n a
d o c t o r . He e n jo y s a p e r s o n a l r e l a t i o n s h i p bo th e men who
is s u b je c t to h is charge, th a t is probably c lo se r than th a t
o f an y o t h e r r e p r a n s n t& tiv e o f m anagem ent* To s t e i t
simply, he s e r v e s for th e c o n f e s s o r to h i s e m p lo y e e s , end fc-al
i s s u c c e s s f u l only i n s o f a r a s h e i n s t i l l s c o m p le te c c a f i -
d o n ce in h i s men In th e d i s c h a r g e o f h i s d u t i e s .
|
L loyd Hamlin I 3 K o d lc a l D ire c to r o f one o f th e | I
l a r g e s t an d b e s t m anaged o f o u r i n d u s t r i a l c o r p o r a t i o n s , thaii
A m erican
Shoe . n r , a cc.jp&ny t h a t c a . - t a i n l y knows |
e J l tn & t should b e known dhotit s i l i c o s i s , or th e p n e u u o - j ccnior.es. H is experience h a s b e e n 3 0 extensive t h a t h a i s j
fully f a m i l i a r with the m e d ic a l p ro b le m s presented i n th e i
a d m in istra tio n of com pensation law . F o rg e ttin g a d m in istra tio n
-J_________________________ I
ii
II !j o f c o n d e n s a tio n la w s
______________ __ ______________________707. ..
i
I f o r a moment, th e problem s p re s e n te d
1 by th e s e d is e a s e s among th e em ployees o f th e company end
i the ro le o f the m edical departm ents and th e ir re la tio n s h ip
! in he pro p er a d m in istra tio n o f com pensation law s. D octor
! H am lin,
I BY DOCTOR HAMLINS
l
(D octor Hamlin re a d a p re p a re d p ap o r w hich is on j
; f i l e a t the Serf ic L ab o ra to ry ,)
!
: BY !iR, WATSKSt
'
I an p leased to ad v ise the au d ien ce th a t the a i r -
j, p l a n e h c h a d u le h a s b e e n c h a n g e d . The w e a th e r a p p a r e n t l y
ii | h as c le a re d and th e re i s n o t the q u ite p re s s u re o f tim e th a t
i
!
jfj ua w ere s u b j e c t t o whon we s t a r t e d th e m e e tin g ,
I
j:
I t is always th e chairm an - th e p re ro g a tiv e o f
th e c h a lm a n o f any m eetin g to re v e rs e h is f io l d , and Im
j; g o in g to re v e r.e e tjy f i e l d to d a y , T h e re h a v e boon a num ber
|i o f p r e p a r e d q u e s t i o n s to b o d i r e c t e d t o th e p a n e l , b u t I
6 t h i n k th e a u d ie n c e comes f i r s t a n d we w i l l welcome any i
!! q u e s t i o n s t h a t you may w ish o d i r e c t to an y i n d i v i d u a l
j; m esiber o f th e p a n e l . I n p ro p o u n d in g th e t q u e s t i o n s ,
j
I;
I
i k in d ly give y o u r name, th e company w ith w hich you are
1
!: a iT H i n t e d or* y '-u r a d d r e s s and th e p a r t i c i p a n t o f th e p a n e l |
i
:
: to whom you w is h y o u r q u e s t i o n d i r e c t e d . I f y o u r u n s h o r .. .
1 o f qu- i t i o n s , I r ve g o t one o r two t h a t I w an t to s la p to th e
members o f th e p e n a l m y s e lf, b u t a t th e moment I i n v i t e
..J>7 -V-
-1.
American B rake S hoe Company
Me d i c a l D e p a r t m e n t 250! B l u e Is l a n d Av e n u e Ch i c a g o **, Illi noi s
2pt-5br 9 2-/52
A rth'ir J Votvr-VJ-i H 33> D irector Ths f w i m Feaislatioa and Th# Panwac Lsfcorat/ay
gai-assae Lake, E* Tork
Bear &rti
I |3ro r a i s e d ta lk 3.Jg tfc lins y aa<s**t8d ee*
Ise Iso w itixu ? yea I h*v sdiled arjothar c&3* rrs-ord te ca a s* i t
; ,ifi c u t v*s,jr ^ f i n i t e l y ta a tjrpa i t h i n g X * t a l h i s g
y-,1.2 you klouily ihurtSors Irasuft ths attsohcd thy?*
^tuo-ars
3~~h sd 5 to rep)ace p-f:- 3 o f the BSKesfcrijyt yea
g'vniiy pssfcar ta
pages to eosrfona xslth these.
fear*,
^ `
I have a lso a ttf ii.a d tsy r a l l i e s to th e et-33tioaa I s&-
s d tts d l a th a i v a t you wica to see th ese befo re vae p anel ^ ia e ^ s d e n .
loh/cs ZSaois.
oct
T*. *? Soelis*., H. 0 . Zfedical i/h-.-ci-vr
I* ;C'-.'0C3 C. ", 'i-- 1**o | Li^itisorj ltd-
American B rake S hoe Company
Me d i c a l D e p a r t m e n t 250! S lue Is l a n d Avenue Ch i c a g o S , Illi noi s
S optasber 9 1752
Arthur J . VoTvsld,, n. D., D irector P Brt?des FoHisiatioa and The Saranac LsfcoraVtfy Sai-aaac Loka, Eaw X>:*rk
Bear &rt
I fcss'a real-sed ?. t-^Xk s3.-0Jjjg th
you a-'! *Cit es
else *soe w eitir# ysu I
adu-sd fuiotbe? c&a* s^oord because i t
l- 'I k *t vwsy ^ f i n i t e l y - the tjp a o f th in g I sg* ta lk in g about.
V:JO ac-u *iS2jr th^rsd'ero i r a s r t *;a s itM h e i th ree pasrta, r^w -ars
3# l* -sad 5 t r ^ a z t s paps 3 o f the Ea*BSfcrit yea kla-caCy fec.r*.
c:>*iiy
t&a svic^sdiiag pages to eonfom tsitb thssa.
I hu'/s also a ttested jgr re sile .3 to the n astioaa X :stsJ>ia the wr!fi j w ich to aee those bafora vau panai diaewusden* j t
loh/ea Basis.
I*. 1*. B ta lia , H D. 2?TMiieai fcbrsotur
ect H r. I?:-'oiora . K ators, Baltim ore, Hd
August 23, 1952
L. E. HfsJSlin* M,S.
Mad5.cal I-lrcavOr
i w r i f s n Isr&ke s lo e Ceapway
'lo fe -s l ^cp^riaeat
50.1 rir.i- T s I^ r i Aveaae
Cfcuo'oo f i iM c a is
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joycr v
rc .;s iJ ''5 .au t k-'-iv flii-j,
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i - S t a ike IctsK-aiory t. w i'iia l, a t tho vokk.
Sir.csrsiy years,
L ill'.fin ?>,' "3.3oa (ore* A>B) 5ti.*e-.Jiiv e Saj-*tary to -
kr\ii'*r J . VorK^ia, H*U. ".irssv-u>r
August 28, 1952
L. S. Haslin, M.D. Kv-.it*i l-ira cto r
l L a r i t r t l : K a o C - _ r ^ p 6a y
He :'ie ;4. IbperTe-w it
5v*.
ers Av'i-t>
C . e i c a ^ a <5, I l H s o l a
S*&3? Dactai*
r-crct-vr V - : j l i ' -,l e w h i l g i C3 R b : i,Hf-S3 T - iip , I v-ish ie. e . a - . ;t7 4 /H.Vik yaa f o r ^ a o r le lr'-ei* f
'.
Z o \-M -
c . - A y o f y c r . r t a l i : i'c s t h e ; ? : : ; - i
A i . - , - e : u s - ; C v ' i i > : ` f : - -i? S . v . e i i , i A v s t - . M !
T l i o j< ? 'U s e
i t '.'S t J>" ,-cs r .l'-in
. ;* * h w i'->C vi" finrt 7 l~-..rsn fchkfc
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d v i l l !-.=> v>i-v' ; A-,,r;y lv
i t , "n *?!
r o . - i v n t o t o * * 3U l < r * M r 3r t i o i ' i r s i o f i h * ~ - S f t k
S2rc&rely y-:":.'3.,
' I l l - - :.n R. J-llna Cera. A, V-,._. ei*?s `acrf-t&.i-y n? ,,
Ar.. ; J * Vorr-sio, Ki'. 'tre e :for
r r r?*.<
Am erican B rake Shoe Com pany
Medical. D e p a r t m e n t 2501 B l u e Is l a n d Av enu e C h i c a g o 8 . Illi nois
August 26, 1952
Arthur jr, V arm ld, K. D.
D irector, T 2 j Trudeau Foundation
Slid Th9 S-l'C
i'-y
P. 0 r. 52 551
Euronee Like, tlsw York
Dear Arti
I sa e l i c i t Ins fcsrawith a copy o f sgr ta li: fo r the pan*i <X,sov3*Qn, sn you roquaatsd. I hope I t noots v.lth y*-ur sppsr*- m i, X a lso ss<ii&g a oopy to Ti>d W aters,
I plan to ehsw about a dozen slidoai to desca* s tr a ta the imriefcy o f conditions th a t *i*r eimulete s i l i c o s i s .
XArdsst *vs,^srd3
Doura sirsc-ereSLy,
I.c F.
M. D.
1'odleil Eiroetor
TMSK FROM PiGE W 7
I Rm p lsasad to adviso tfa* audiene* th at the a i r p l a y
' t o & a . fca. t e <*** r : , v ~ U r
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t-o idisn w
t&e nso-eisg*
I t i s always t+a,ta t,*w-'*-'w-"--i a1 - the *orerogauv* tha
drixaa*
o f a*y ssso,t,lag *to>v^ .-^~iS989 M' 3 f ie l d , a&d I a goirg to vwmee*
fis ld today.
-*
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a -
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bo dir^'Ot,a**. '4iO t"S _p_s_4_vs,j., <>*viU- 1i f-^ R- k ta e'?J.waca o sia s firrrt #*
. ;3
-joltoa say quest.io. ns
,-?uonun *w-aajry vt.Sb to diSPSCt *3
, -.- . isiaivi& aal KWBfear o f th p * l
..,1?-.^ t'ios# w.eiions, - '
Sdafily g iw you* ohiso, tbs *c.o-.^~ir-aM~Tv -rtth" v"fcieh y- oo ara
,,
- ..
or
&&to?s3 s-na r^ 3
*% th^
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4
*t-0 wisbtTl *OU
-> question
I f yea run e&>r* of < p o 0 t M , I '7*
^ c~ 3 03? tiro t t - t I w n t to Plap to tbs asa& m of thm i ^ a l
sy e e lf, but a t tta sioaoni, I iiivl'to
I
y o u r q u a s t l o n s . Any ;3 S tI o n a f g e n t : ^ n ?
j
BY MR. KALKYKO' ' '
j
Id ilk a to ad d ress th is q u e stio n to the l a s t
|
.p e a k e r, w hich r e la te s to the lu a stio n o f w hether th e re should
be a l i a b i l i t y based on l a s t in ju rio u s exposure or n o t. an d j
H r. K e u c h le , i f I 'm n o t m is ta k e n . d i d n ' t e x p r e s s an o p in io n
on th a t s u b je c t n ix a self. I was w ondering i f the l a s t apeak
e r would th in k i t a d v isa b le to have a lo n g and e x te n siv e
l i t i g a t i o n and evidence having to be p re se n te d to tho c h a ir
man. the e x te n t of exposure under a l l em ployers w hich s ? 0 nd a considerable p e r i o d o f tim e , t o b o a b le t o a l l o c a t e c o st o f l i a b i l i t y betw een each in a p a rtic u la r s ili c o s is c a s e , j u s t a s a p r a c t i c a l m a t t e r , hew w ould you h a n d le a
s itu a tio n lik e that?
nyjDQC?oa iimLiZi
71iats a p r e tty lo n g , in v o lv e d q u e stio n fo r n e # and I d o n ' t c la im , as I s a i d , to know much aboxit th e a d m in is tra tio n . I th in k th a t's a q u estio n th a t n ig h t be d ir e c te d b e t* o r to one o f th e o th e r sp e a k e rs . I 'm n o t sura t h a t I q u it e u n d e rs ta n d j u s t w hat you wore - v>hat
e i s t c. ri V VP
your qu93tion i s . C,, o m m, is s, io n e r nw. 'l i
duou yjo^u m* ind i f C o o m ls s io n e r
H ill answ ers th a t?
BY r B. KALl-BxT.CJ; Ho.
i
Ij
i! EY COMMISSIONER KILL:
*
j
I may n o t be a b le to answ er i t , b u t I g o t th e g is t!
o f i t You say d o e s he o ppose a ays tom w h e re b y th e l a s t e x
p o s u re p ays a l l th e l i a b i l i t y ? Now, as I u n d e rs ta n d i t ,
th e in s u r a n c e com panies l i k e t h a t s y s te m . In M ic h ig a n , we
have - w e're ab le to a p p o rtio n l i a b i l i t y betw een em ployers,
b u t the l a s t em ployer i s stu c k , b u t w e've su g g ested th a t in
o rd e r to f a c i l i t a t e eaploymco.t o f em ployees w ith abnorm al
c h est x -ra y s , th a t ther^ should be c o n trib u tio n betw een in
surance com panies, b u t they d o n 't w ant th a t.
Now, i n M ic h ig a n , th e l a s t er>r o y a r i s s t u c k w ith
1 th e e n t i r e a m o u n t. e h av e n o t h a d any s i t u a t i o n s t h a t i n - j
y o lv a a s l l t t l a a s one d a y . The F o rd M otor Company, i n one j i
c a 3e , em ployed a men an d t o l d him on p ro -e m p lo y m e n t t h a t
th e y c o u l d n 't g e t th e x'e s u l t o f h i s X - r a y e x a m in a tio n f o r
throe days, b u t i f i t showed th a t he .a d abnorm al - an ab
norm al c h e s t c o n d itio n , th a t he would be r e le a s e d and so as
i t d id , he was r e le a s e d . Then a c la im was f i l e d nsm ing th e
F ord M otor Company and a n o th e r e m p lo y e r,a n d th e com m ission
i
in t h e i r u ltim a te wisdom, d i d n 't u se th e p ro v is io n o f th e |
l a s t em ployer, b u t h o ld th e em ployer previous to the Ford
|
M otor Company, ana i e c o u r t s a i d we w ere c o r r e c t .
;
J
B u t y o u r w hole - th e 'whole pro olein h e re i s th a t j
the - i f tho l a s t em ployer i3 stu c k fo r the f u l l am ount, he!
can c a l l in th e o t h e r e m p lo y e r s . Now, t h a t r u l e h a s b e e n l h
I
j e f f e c t i n M ic h ig a n s i n c e 1937 and I c a n r e c a l l o n lv t h r e e ;!I
to f iv e c a s e s , g e n e ra lly tiie em ployers s e t t l e i t by a g re e
la en t, and say you c o n trib u te so much, you c o n trib u te so
much, you c o n trib u te so much.
Now, rsmamb ^ r t h a t a l l c a s e s a r e n o t c o n t e s t e d
and th e re have boon cases in which em ployers havo c o n tr ib
u te d w here th e y have a g re e d th a t the man h ad a d i s a b l i n g
s i l i c o s i s and th e am ount p a y a b le s1 'I d b e p a id by th e l a s t
one under the law , b u t the boys g e ttin g to g e th e r, th e se v - j
o r a l em ployers, and s a y , 1*11 pay th is much and 1*11 pay
t h a t m uch. They do i t n o t u n d e r i me r e g u l a t i o n , I moan
th e y ju s t a r b it r a r il y f ix the amount each is going to pay
o u t o f th e t o t a l am o u n t d u o . T h ere i s no p a r t i c u l a r f o r m u l a*.
How, I d o n 't know i f t h a t a n s w e rs y o u r q u e s t i o n o r n o t .
\
BY MR. UXWzRSi Thank yo u , Jim*
I am g o in g t o a g a i n e x a r c l s a
a n o t h e r p r e r o g a t i v e a n d d i r e c t a q u e s t i o n t o one o f fcha
isacibers o f th e p an el th a t has been th e s u b je c t o f d ise n a sio ri
i n the co u rse o the 'm eeting y e s te rd a y a fte rn o o n and th is ; t
m o rn in g . Ben Ilo u c h le h a p p e n s to be one o f iy f a im e r c o n - j
i fo s s o rs in th is H e ld * H d.. q u e stio n i s n o t p re p a re d f o r ,
i
him , b u t I 'd lik e to g e t h is r e a c tio n , b o th from the s t a n d - !
o o in t o f menagexaent and an in su ran ce c a r r i e r , w ith re s p e c t ;
*
i
to th is question.
:
Ben, w hat can be do m to m inim ize the u n e m p lo y a b ility
__ _________________________________________ m ,_ ..
as a d is a b lin g f a c t o r In o u s t d ise a se c a s e s ? Would you say |
a word about th a t?
BY MR. KEUCELE t ""T h a t g i v e s me an o p p o r t u n i t y t o r e a d a p a r a g r a p h
fro m a l e t t e r fro m M r. H a rry N e ls o n , th e D i r e c t o r o f Com p e n s a tio n o f the W isconsin I n d u s tr ia l Com m ission, which I
n e g lo c te d to re a d when I was up h e re b e fo re # I su b m itto d my t a l k to h im , b e c a u s e I d i d n 't w an t to make any o r r o r 3 i n
sp Icing ab o u t th e s t a t u t e , v a rio u s s ta t u t e s o f lim ita tio n s
t h a t wo h a v e In c u r la w , and h i s c 'e l u d i n g p a r a g r a p h , in
s e n d in g t h e d r a f t b a c k to me i s t h i s j
"As I r e a d y o u r t a l k , I a g a in w ondered why o th e r
s ta t e s flo u n d e r around vtrfn e la b o ra te and obs cruse
p r e v i a io n s f o r p a r t i a l d i s a b i l i t y , w h ic h b" r e a l l y
not ex isten t# "
j
Now, you r q u e s tio n , what can be dene to m inim ise J
th e n o n -e m p lo y a b ility o f an in d iv id u a l who h a s soma evidence',, c l i n i c a l o r A -ra y , n a t u r a lly would have to bo X -ra y , a t
le a s t o f s i l i c o s i s - th a t depends e n tir e ly on what s o r t o f i
a law you have and w hat s o r t of a d m in is tra tio n you have#
Now, I know o v e r i n Jim H i l l 's s t a t e , th e g r e a t
S t a t e o f M ic h ig a n , you h av e a o re by d e s p e r a t e s i t u a t i o n # j
They have a la w , an d Jim H i l l and h i s a s s o c i a t e s a r 3 got. j
i
to a d m in is te r 0 th e way th e le g i s l a t u r e p u t I t on hie
;
b o o k s. I n d u s tr y I s , I n f a c t , re fu s in g to employ p e o p le In j
th e S t a t e o f M ic h ig a n who h av e X -ra y e v id e n c e o f f ib r o s :' o, i
am I r i g h t , J im ?
.....
........................... 1
712
BY COI-EMISSIONS?.HILL:
!
,r" 1"T ~
i
Y es, I n aan , they r e f u s e to em ploy them , .some o f ]
the fo u n d ries d isch arg e th e n , ju s t say , y o u 're o u t of a job j
on a p e rio d ic X-ray exam ination, th a t s t a r t s the tro u b le * j
J bY I-IR. KSTICHLE;
|
Now, h e re I s an e m p lo y er gro u p w ho, I n f a c t , by I
t h e i r a c t ! n s , sa y t h a t a man w ith t h a t am ount I s s i l i c o s i s j
i
i s a h a z a rd to them as f a r a s em ploym ent I s concern ed * I t j
i s n 't th e C om m ission's f a u l t , i t i s n 't th e e m p lo y e r's f a u l t j
th e law I s f a u l t y , and th e ad m in iflfc ratio n c a n 't do a xvj ruling j
b u t adm in!-' to _ th e la w th e way th e y h a v e i t on th e b o o k s*
It
Now, we have no su ch t r o u b l e i n W is c o n s in * You
gentlem en and la d ie s here would be amazed, and D octor Candor
would v e r if y t h i s I f h e 's h e rs , whan I t e l l you t h a t in
I
S W is c o n s in to d a y , i n o u r f o u n d r os vdiore we Know d u s t c o n t r o l .
i s a d e q u a te , we' r e 1. .-aping w e ll w i t h i n s a f o l i m i t s , m c iu s - J
i t r y i s em p lo y in g on th e r 3 c o ia a e n d a tio n s o f D o c to r C a n d o r an d
i
o th e r e q u a lly q u a l i f i e d p h y s ic ia n s , men who h av e s i l i c o s i s i
5
, a i to d a y , who may come from a n o t h e r a b ate o r fro m a n o t h e r foum*
dry in the S ta te of W isconsin o r from t- o o th e r in d u s try j
j t h a t we w i l l re c o g n iz e - t h a t have w e ll r e c o g n i s e d n o d u la r j
i s i l i c o s i s , b e c a u se our C o rn !a sio n , as K r. N elson p o in to d o u t
I n t h i s letter, ta k e s th e p o s i t i o n t h a t t h e r e I s p r a c t i c a l l y
no such t h i n g as a d ls a b l eg s i l i c o s i s fro m th e s ta n d p o in g ,
o f th e nan c o n t i n u i n g tc -.o h i s w ork. Now, l e t ' s x'enem oer
713.[
w h et t h i s -- am I t a lk in g to o lo n g ?
j
BY MR. WATKRS:
j
Go a h e a d .
j
BY MR. KSUCKLE: L e t ' s remember what we
Some p e o p le seem t o be la b o r in g
| i
have com pensation .
law s
fori |
under the .e lu sio n th a t co a t
p en sa tio n law s were p rim a rily design ed to g iv e p eop le nonoy.
That is n ot c o r r e c t. I happen to be w e ll acq u ain ted w ith |
1 th e c o m m itte e from th e W is c o n s in Le; s l a t u r e , i n 1909# t h a t;
d r a fte d th e law w h ich was p a sse d in 1 9 1 1 . The Chairman o f ]
th a t C om m ission, H r. Sanborn, was a p e r so n a l fr ie n d o f mine*
I t a l k e d w it h him many tim e s# and whan t h a t b i l l w as srafcmitf
ted to the le g is la t u r e , they gave - the C cm uittee gave se v -l
! e r a l r e a s o n s f o r a c o n d e n s a t io n la w , a n d nu.ifoor one r e a s o n j ' was to reduce the nusbar o f a c c id o n ts and in ju r ie s in in - !
i
due t r i a l p u r s u its .
j
Now, th a t i s th e g o a l we have b een tr y in g to ? o l-j
low , and th a t is th e g oal every a d m in istra to r should have j
in m in d , g o a lt h i s o n ly c r e a te d th rou gh th e u s e o f human i
e n e r g y in th o d ev elo p m en t o f our n a t u r a l r e s o u r c e s # and In i
no o th e r way do you produce r e a l w e a lth . Uhen a ran i s
I
n e t p e r m itte d to work fo r any r e a so n , who i s employ-able# :
you a rc s a c r if ic in g p a rt o f the w ealth., p o te n tia l w ea lth o f
t h is n a tio n o f o u r s , and every a g en cy , very I n d iv id u a l who
p l a y s a p a r t i n ad r '.s t o r i n g a com porn a t io n la w , s h o u ld ,
7lk
f i r s t an d f o r e m o s t, lo o k t o th a on f a c t o r o f k e e p in g a n a n :
a t work#
j IJow, i t ' s t r u a t h a t soma o f t h a s s f e l l o w s i n tii ;
fo u n d rie s, have e x te n siv e s il i c o s i s and they c a n t ru n a j
h u n d re d y a r d d a s h , h u t how much b e t t e r to l e t them go on
fo r tha r e s t of th e ir l i f e a t th e ir fa v o rite o ccupation
j
w ith o u t a wage lo s s , and w s've got people in W isco n sin in j
a l o t o f th e f o u n d r i e s wa i n s u r e d , who h a d n o u u la r s i l i c o - j
s i s tw e n ty y e a r s ago and th e y a r e s t i l l w o rk in g # Why n o t
keep them a t work r a th e r th a n to g iv e them a few thousand.
d o l l a r s an d fciirow thsro c u t o f w o rk ? T h a t 's w hen th e y d i e j ;
W*i621
n
0*1 l?OCl ^
8
u 0 *va g o t to s u p p o rt them th ro u g h p u b lic and p r i v a t e c h a r
i t y . I cay t h a t e v e r y la w o u g h t to b lo o k e d a t a g a i n w ith
th e id e a o f d e sig n in g i t i n such a way t h a t in the adm in
ia tr a tio n o f th a t law , th e re is every inducem ent to keep
men a t vfork r a ^ r th a n t o pay thorn money*
pv JTH. -JAff'h'jS
!
T' -n k y o u , B e n . I t ' s n o t s u r p r i s i n g t h a t B 'U !
r ____n - t .
r nn to a d -o n in t o one o f th e s u b j e c t s
!
th a t I happonac. to d iscu ss a t tha roasting y esterd a y a f te r -
n o o n . Perhaps B i l l w a s n 't h e r e , b u t i t d e a l t w ith t h i s
,
o t h e r g a rm a in s u b j e c t o f tha q u e s t i o n o f l i m i t a t i o n s . In
summary, you r e c a l l th a t I m en tio n ed th a t in daiuaga a c tio n s ,
a l l s t a t e s im posed l i m i t a t i o n s o f tim e w i t h i n w hich '* o r
claim s m ust be f il e d and under m ost o f the com pensation s t a t u t e s , th o r e a re s p e c i f i c l i m i t a t i o n s o f tim e when th e i
co m p en sa b ility o f the claim must a r is e or th e tim e w ith in |
w hich tn a t claim mu3t be file d *
|
Uow, i f I u n d e r s to o d B i l l c o r r e c t l y i n h i s r e - i
m a rk s , h e 'd l i k e to th ro w some o f th o s e l i m i t a t i o n s s t a t - ; u te s o u t o f th e window* T his i s j u s t a n o th e r a r e a o f th e | many d isa g re e m e n ts t h a t I have v 1 th him , and many oi th e | o th e r members o f th e p a n e l, b u t i n th e l i g h t o f t h a t d m - j e u ssio n , and I th in k i t is o f v i t a l i n t e r e s t to the re c o rd j o f th i s ayispcsiusn, th a t B ill sh o u ld have the o p p o rtu n ity to j say a l i t t l e more c o n c re te form , w nat he th in k s* To t e a t
en d , I f d lik e to d i r e c t to him th is q u e stio n * Should tiraa lim ita tio n s on th e f i l i n g
clslxsia
f o r rneumoeon? e ta s bo lib e r a liz e d or a b o lish e d ?
'J'*
say a word about t r u t, p le a se , B i l l?
BY HR. COIPTOI-LT ; G lad t o , Tec
In answ ering th a t q u e stio n , and
when my p a p e r was p r e p a r e d I h a d one t h i n g in m in d , t h a t a t no tim e d id I w an t to d is c r i m in a t e a g a in s t p e o p le w..uh d u a t d i s e a s e s . We h a v e n 't , an y w h ere i n th e h a l t e d a I t < on o u r b o o ^ s , %hlch s a y s t. .-it a man ' no i s go~ng to bo comoansa ta d f o r th e lo s s o f a h an d , tn e tim e l i m i t a t i o n s t a r t s fro m th e tim e o f h i3 e x p o s u r e to w n at may c a u s a th e l o s s o f tn e h a n d , and t h a t ' s e x a c t l y w h at m o st c th e u ua
116,4-
say today on s i l i c o s i s . They say from the tim e of l a s t ex p o su re,
How, i f
y o u 're going to p u t tim e lim ita tio n s on o th e r s e c tio n s o f |
th e a d t, th a n do th e same th in g w ith s i l i c o s i s , h u t I f
j
y o u 're n o t, th en tr e a t .i l i c o s i s v ictim s e x a c tly th e same j
way, in o th e r w ords, I would say th a t i f th o re i s g o in g to j he th a t s t cute of lim ita tio n s , then i t should be from th e
tim e o f t h i s d is a b le m e n t, e x a c t l y t h e 's ;e a s i f ha l o s t
h is hand, from the tim e th a t th e hand comes o f f , ho w ould j
have two y e a rs to r e p o r t t h a t a c c id e n t. Hew, t h e r e J .) a h : ... s g o in g t o b e d i s p u t e s i f y o u
say th e tim e o f l a s t ex p o su re, b ecau se th e man mey go two
o r th ro * y - a r a w i t h o u t know ing i t o r ha may know i t an d t o
c a r e f u l a b o u t i t , o r t o careless a b o u t i t and c h o n , whan he
i s d is a b l e d , come in and make h is c la im , and I t ' s
_
.
on the b a s is of tha s ta tu te of lim ita tio n s#
disallow ed I
How, I h ad t h a t p ro b lem whan I a d m in is te r e d th a
law in luiode Is la n d , and s t i n g o as i t
seem, I ra c e tha
a d m in is tr a tiv e r u lin g th a t th a t meant from th e tim e o f the ,
diSR.blem ent ana n ot one case was oh all uiged on the b a s is of!
t h a t , Svary claim was p a id and v j have q u it s a few in s u r
a n c e co m p a n ies w r i t i n g in s u r a n c e i n K: d o I s l a n d . I t h in k :
w ore soma 7 0 , and s o , V a s t 's my p o s i t i o n on i t . I j u s t w ant ties s i l i c o s i s p erson t r e a t e d e x a c tly the samo wav as any .
o th e r a c c id e n t or any c ..s t d is e a s e s .
:
JDJV .
I1B u sin g th e v en d s l U c c s i s P erh ap s whan X
hould be u s in g th a t pneum oconiosis and I f th e , c a n 't be
. e a t s d th e same a s a n ,
a c c id e n t, than I a a , th o U ah
;h e s t a t u t e e f l i m i t a t i o n s .
|
I
>.V MR. WATERS t
j
Vary w ell done.
i
}
3Y MR. flTJChDE*
|
How* c an I f i g h t ?
j
BY m . WATSH3;
_ _,
' i
Sux>j9f C0,,13,,19QaiwlSaaCdl# tvhu.*r e e m in u te s to l i g h t *
,;
n v ]vVrt 0 ]C^UGHL^_*
I a o n .t think B i l l 's .o p a r l.o n 1 . -P P ro p riate
.
T.
,o u * re d ealin g "' th a d isease th a t H
p:. -^ g ra ssiv o i l a - o t h e r c a s e y o u * re h a v in g a
cl_ , a, o f f . However, I do ag ree w ith D ill th a t U ^ o ^
* o u g h t t o 1**,
, . 3 c o ln to have any s ta tu te o f X h ii^ , u - - s Co c
,
e t Rn x , a v e ry l i b e r a l s t a t u t e . I t t _jb i *o* -
tio n s a t a^A, a
.
IP YOU aa: c0
w ith what I said a o-nt *gc. i f
fco h a v e some r e a s o n a b l e a s s u r a n c e
E-an a t w o rk , ;wy >ve go * t o -
_
w h ile t h e y r e u u - y- itn gi- --' h aa tt Ui f e v e n t u a l l y th e y broatc down
thev ,e g o in g to be tahan care o f .
BY va* c o ir jp JJ^ : w a ll, I agree w ith th a t.
ov va
py'UnTT,E:
,
- '
. , ^ ..c o n s in , to h an d le th a t
via h a v e a t te m p t e d , in y
s i t u a t i o n in su ch a way so th a t a man p r a c t i c a l l y h a s no s t a t u t e o f li m ita tio n s ev o r ap p ly in g a g a in s t him . Eow, some o f y o u n a y w an t t o w r i t s ray p r e s i d e n t an d t o l l h i n I
ought to ho f ir e d . KY YR ,, BARDIC H:
Mr. g a t o r s , may I ask a q u e s tio n ?
RY MR. WATERS8 you way, H r. B ar die h .
BY !-!R. BARDlCHi Ms w a rs t o l d on Monday t h a t c a s e s o f b o r y .U i.- n
d ise a se were tu rn in g up to n years a f te r the te rm in a tio n o f
fV.
nr.TM, j^y p a s t- e x p e r i e n c e , 1*11 h a t a e o o k i a
t h a t two y e a r s fro m now , s h e ' l l h e t e l l i n g u*
oasas a r |
t u r n i n g up tw e lv e y e a r s fro m th e l a s t e x p o s u r e . How, o n | t h a t b a s i s , hew a r a you g o in g to e a t any k in d o f a def-i.nl-w.oj
tim e lim it?
f*Y ''"R* V'Aj s S in c e I am n o t a member o f t h e p a n e l , x 'm go .mg
t o a s k one o f 1.7 g o o d b r e t h r e n t o a n sw e r M r. B a r d i c n 's
|
c u c s t i o n . Jin, I s e e Doctor Richards seem s - would li.^e
to c
uv r c. ~
n t xipon i t , i s t h a t correct, P a u l?
j
-viB.I
;
yos . I w ou ld s a y one o f the greatest d i f f i c u l t i e s
that we are encountering on fh'>: panel t o c a y is teat -a nu.e
written too many laws in ignorance. Now, to coma b a c k with
719. . . _
my good f r i e r , O tto W is e ly , an d r e c a p i t u l a t e som ew hat o f
a p a t t e r n o f th e t h i n g t h a t he b r o u g h t b e f o r e y o u , new , we
are Ju st a l i t t l e sagebrush s ta te out th e ra , fo lk s, but
we h av e tw en ty , o a rs o f th o r o u g h i n v e s t i g a t i o n b e f o r e we
w rote w rite r-ant,
an o c c u ip a tio n a l d is e a s e la w . When we g o t re a d y to
h a t la w , v:a b r o u g h t i n l a b o r , we b r o u g h t i n m anage- j
we b ro u g h t i n th e a t t o r n e y s , we b r o u g h t i n th e * a v i r - j
o rie n ta l engineers and lo and b eh o ld , they p erm itted a
|
couple o f us do cto rs to creep in to the crowd.
j
W ell, now, th e n w ith th a t background, th a t as a j
b a s i s , we a l l s a t down w ith e q u a l r e s p o n s i b i l i t y an d w ro te j
a la w . 0 1 1 , you a;ay n o t a g r e e w i t h i t , b u t th e dais?..-,* j
th in g has w orked, hew, th en i f you d o n 't agree w ith i t ,
th a n g iv e us some r s a a o n why i t i s n * , r e a s o n a b le .
P.Y bit. COhlTOLLY:
W ell, I d i d n 't d is a g re e ; I 3a id i t 's alm o st ira5
p o ssib le.
|
b y kCTOh P,Iat-ARPS
I
I t i s n ' t Impossible, b e c a u s e i t ' s b o e n d o n e , how ,;
th a n w i t h t h a t a s a b a c k g ro u n d , when we c o n f r o n t tnc la w j
t h a t w e 'v e g o t to d a y , l a b o r i s j u s t as r e s p o n s i b l e f a r _h
la w .3 m anagem ent o r as th e a t t o r n e y s o r a s th e h o ax u h --a- :
ginoe r a o r a s th e d o c t o r . Sc w e 'v e g o t a law on o u r stst-
u t o s t h a t W hen i t w e n t before o u r l e g i s l a t u r e , there was no
one s in g le d is s e n tin g vote in th a t le g is la tu r e , and - w then
ci*
i f l a b o r w an ts t o come a n d condem n t h i s la w , wo s a y , a l l i
r i g h t , gentlem en, you are oondduming th e law th a t you h e lp -!
ed to b u ild a l t e r tw enty y e a rs o f in v e s tig a tio n , a f to r a j
thorough, a f te r a thorough a n a ly s is of a l l o f our h e a lth j
p ro b le m s, as a c c u r a te ly as we c o u ld make them , I n a h a a l th j
- in a h e a lth .in v e s tig a tio n th ro u g h o u t our s t a t e , which r e - j
s u ite d in the ta k in g o f th o u san d s of f ilm s , so our pneurao- j
c o n io s e s problem was n o t
in d is c r e e tly end w ith o u t a
|
l i t t l e f o r e ; ' g h t* Therefore, : f e e l t h a t i f we c o u ld e s
ta b lis h a p a tte r n whereby a l l o f the p a r tie s in v o lv ed srw
down i n c o u v . i l on w h at th e y w an t to d o , I b e l i e v e a l o t o f
th e se problem s would bo w orked out* How, I th i n k a l o t o f th e p ro b le m s t h a t h a v e eome
b e fo re tills group today w ill o nly be worked out e d u c a tio n a lly * The s u c c e s s o f th e o p e r a tio n o f t h i s th in g w i l l be how w a ll con ou r b o a rd s t h a t a re to a d m in is te r t h e 3 a law s ,-9t a l o n g w ith m anagem ent, w i t h l a b o r and a l l th e o th e r f a c t o r s i n v o l v e - . I f we c m s t i l l s i t down, in th e u n i t e d c a p a c ity o f & co o p era tiv e and am algam ated group i n stu d y in g j our problem s, th e re is s t i l l an a g re e a b le s o lu tio n to a l l j
of th ese tilin g s.
j
BY M i. WATERS8
|
Gentlemen, you know, I wish that this plans uiat's
cuooosed to leave Saranac, would leave at five o `clock in the orning instead o f five o'clock in the afternoon. I
721,
p r e d i c t e d to d a y we w ere g o in g t o h av e a s l u g g i n g m a tc h ,
j
an d B i l l C o n n o lly j u s t w h is p e r e d i n my e a r t h a t he c o u ld n ' t j
take ev ery th in g th a t D octor R ichards had s a id and he w ants j
t o r e p l y . I am g o in g to l e t him r e p l y , h u t I 'm s o r r y to t e l l y o u t h a t when he i s th r o u g h , I m u st a g a in a x o r c i s o my
n r o r o ^ a tiv e and make a lew re m a rk s Tine i s ru n n in g o u t nr I would l i k e to h e a r from S i l l , f o r the r e c o r d .
BY HR. COf'iOT.LY;
j
One o f th e g r e a t e s t p ro b le m s we h av e .in th e U ni cod
S t a t e s to d a y i s , a s D o c to r R ic h a rd s v e ry w e ll p u t i t , poor* j la w s , y'e , i n th e E u rs a u o f L a b o r S t a n d a r d s , h a v e b e e n t r y - ;
inct to develop a s o - c a ll e d model law th a t w ill a t l e a s t
so a o o f o u r s t a t e s i n l i n e w ith o th e x * s. Ucw, i f ou ta k o j
perhapj the Governor th ere has c o n tro l of h is le g is la tu re # j
b u t l e t me t e l l y o u t h a t whan I w e n t i n a s D i r e c t o r o f
|
L ab o r i n hhode I s l a n d , we h ad a v e ry b a d la w , and as th e j
S ir e c t o r o f L abor, I t E m itte d tw e n ty -1 r e e amendments to ;
c o r r e c t seme o f th e a b u se s i n t h a t la w . I j u s t su c c e e d e d j
f
i n m a k in g t h a t la w m ore ho age. -p o d g e t n a n i t w as i n t ^ e
j
b e fitin n irrt.
i
S u r e , we h id c o r r e c t some t h i n g s h e r e and t h e r e
I th e n w an t t o th e Go.' o r n o r o f th e S t a t e and a s k e d v im t o
s e t ud & co m m issio n to tu d y th e la w a n d to b r i n g b;-ck to
th e l e g i s l a t u r e a r e p o r . on w h a t a moctal law s h o u ld ,n "
t a i n . He d i d t h a t . T h a t b i l l h a s boon be io re otxr 1 a s -
la tu r e Tor th re e long years*
.; 722
I
i We s t i l l hav e th e h o d g e -p o d g e
law In Rhode Islan d *
How, we we c a n ' t f i n d two a lik e , and one o f
can go s tr a ig h t acro ss th is co u n try and j
w o rk m en 's comp la w s t h a t a r e anyw here n e a r |
the g r e a te s t f ig h ts I'm h av in g r ig h t now ,|
J i f you p l e a s e , in W a sh in g to n , i 3 to p r e v e n t th e f e d a r a x i s a - i i tlo r. o f w orkm en's com pensation*
How, t h a t i s n o t c o n in g fro m th e f e d e r a l g o v e r n
m ent. I t i s coning from people o u ts id e the governm ent, and I h a v e ts ir e n rav s ta n d t h a t t h e w orkm en*s c o m p e n s a tio n c a n n o t h a f o d s r a i i a e d , and f o r t h a t r e a s o n , I o p p o se i t * i-- In te rn a tio n a l A r e l a t i o n o f A ccident Boards and com m issions
w h ic h i a made v ? o f a l l o f th e w o rk m en 's comp m o tio n c c.r ia ia e io n e rs i n t h i s ecu. r y , an d I am th e S e c r e ta r y - ! .r e f t.- .u r -
o f th a t o rg a n isa tio n , they a lso have asked to c e ll a
J
In g in W ashington, o f a l l w orkm en's com pensation
01*3 f o r th e p u rp o s e o f g e t t i n g up t h i s m odel la w . We c a n 't ; i
oven g e t ag ree m en t t h e r e . He have some ople th a t w ant to ,
coxae i n t o t h a t m o a tin g t h a t - an d t h e i r v ie w s a r e s o 'w ide j
"w iirt
so
ku `tii& t ".'6*c* o n ly s u c c s o d 5-n
n n o >.^1
k n o ck -d o w n , d r a g - o u t f i g h t w h e re we coulee-. * t do u.i3 l h * ; How, we r e a l l w o rk in g to w a rd the ena o f s i n p l i f ' -
inr* w o rk m en 's c o m p e n sa tio n l a v s , b u t when I s a i d i t was -w~-- p o s s i b l e , I say - h a t th e r e a re to o r.anv pe la *n our s t a t e
l e g i s l a t u r e s who d i f f e r i n t h e i r v i -s on what s h o u ld be
123.
' h a ra op w hat should, h a th e r e i n a law* and t n u t i s th s main,
d i f f i c u l t y , and t h a t i s why I s a i d i t was im p o s s ib l e . I f
wa c o u ld c o n t r o l t h e s e l e g i s l a t u r e s , f i n s , we c e r t a i n l y
c o u ld g e t up a good m odel la w , th e la w th a t i s now in i i i s s ia a ip p i is one o f th s b e s t l us around th a t p a r t o f the co u n try , I guess, of any o f the law s, fo r they ju s t enacted t h e i r law In 19';3. T h a t law was draw n up in th e B ureau o f
L abor S ta n d a r d s . When i t g o t down t h e r e , th e y d id make
ch a n g e s i n i t , c h a n g e s t h a t we d i d n ' t l i k e . H ow ever, i t
came o u t i n p r e t t y g o o d form and th e y w ere th e l a s t s t a t e
. ? 'tb s U-Til.021 to
8. w orkm en1s c o m p sn s fttio n l&w,
&s
I c a y , I t was In 1 9 ^ 8 , b i t t h a t ' s th e c l o s e s t w o*vs come
to b ein g able to p u t in to one a c t, a l l o f the th in g s th a t
va th in k are good th ro u g h o u t tho n a tio n .
EY I'R, MAT3R5l
Gentleman, word has come to nse that I may ua/s
boon mistaken, after all, in ho-est confession is good for
the stall, and I must ask irty friend, Doctor Ric.1v.1 res, ilth
respect to this, the time for the departure of the plane.
The reason I ask that is that word ' a come to -ms that a
numb . of tho. in the av lance would like to stay on . o r further discussion. Paul, do y o u know about the plan.-'
c v r y g y 0 P W T J S g g Y :
The bus '.eaves the hotel at 5:35 daylight time
jzk a u
T h a t* a th e t-Lae on th e c l o c k t h e r e BY DOCTOR RICHARDS?
We h a v e one h o a r b e f o r e th e b u s le a v e s #
BY ;- R# WATERS X W e ll, th e n I th in k I was p a rh a p s a l i t t l e p reraa-
t u r s I n ray r e m a r k s , X u n d e r s to o d i t was f i v e o 'c lo c k # Thorofo re , w ith your forb earan ce, l o t 's continue th is dis -- c u sa io n a few iaoraents. Are th e re any o th e r q u e s tio n s you w ould l i k e to d i r e c t >o th e p a n e l ?
BY !TU DARMAKOs Mr. C o n n o lly , i n y o u r o p p o s itio n to th e s t a t u t e
of lim ita tio n s , are you ta lk in g about exposure or < iissbili~ y?
BY MR. W A T MRS;
'
Do y o u m in d a d d r e s s i n g th e q u e s t i o n so th e a u d ie n c e
c 9 a h e a r ? T h is i s v e r y i m p o r ta n t m id I*a> s u r e t h a t t a l a
d iscussion w ill be helpful#
j
BY MR. PAHMAKO;
{
>ly o n ly q u e s t i o n i3 y o u r o p p o s i t i o n t o th e s t a t u t e
of lim ita tio n s , is w hether y o u 're opposed to then g en o rs^ iy j
or w hether i t ' s a problem o f from the l a s t exposure o r data*
of d isa b ility ?
i
B Y M R . COTCBCL L Y :
!
Data of disability, that's my position#
.
BY MB. BARKAKQr
!
And t h a t ' s w hat you w ould d e s i r e ?
_____ ___ _______________________________________________
725.. -i. i
BY MR. COireOLLY: That's right.
BY HR. WATSRSt Are there any more questions xrom the floorf
Commissioner Hill wants to say '^mething; all of them want
to talk.
j
BY COKHISSIOHER HII-LI
Wall, I'll tall you, tho raason that he started
to fr.sk no to try to attempt to answer tho gentleman's ques-j
tion about disability, from delayed disability from exposur*
to beryllium, and that was called to iay attention and that j
is i-hy I asked that ho re burn. Ilow, somebody is going to
have to take care of these people that become disabled and
die from beryllic3 la or any other disabling result from ex-t
pc-'-ure to beryllium.
The Kor?cmon's conroencation laws are designed to
i provide benefits for disability or death that result from j
_
!
an injury which arises out of and in tee covert of the
\
ploymsnt and the term injury, ir-ludfc., diseases and under j
an all-inclusive type o coup ati onal disease coverage, it
j
would inclxide any kind of a dis .ase that would result from ; exposure to b . ylliura and if beryllium was listed in the |
schedule, it would also be covered. How, you're either go ag to have to pay tram com-
p s n s a t i o n b e n e f i t s u n d e r th e comp on s a t i o n law o r *-ie a ^.ate
________________ 7 2 6 .
o r th e f e d e r a l governm ent o r somebody e ls e Is going to have;
to pay b e n e f i t s ur le r some p la r ,
j
Now, I s u b m it t h a t th e y s h o u ld g e t I t v d a r w o r k - !
men's co n d en satio n , and th a t th e o n ly p o ssib le lim ita tio n i
you can have would be ? lim ita ti o n from the d a te o f d is -
a b la m e n t# How, th e d e la y e d r e a c t i o n , n e v e r t h e l e s s , i f y o u j
can e s ta b l is h th a t i t ' s due to th e em ploym ent, t h a t 's th e !
t <t. I f I t can bo e s ta b lis h e d th a t i t 's due to the eia- j
p lc y n s m t, t h e n t h e r e , I f r e e t h a t t h e r e s h o u ld be some
j
lim its.c io n , from th e d a te f d is a b le m e n t ir. w hich ola.L : s h o u ld
be made o r in w hich p ro c e e d in g s sh o u ld be s ta r t o d , b u t c a r - ;
fcainly I don't th in k th a t a w orker sh o u ld be b arre d m orely | by th e la p se of tim e. I f the e ffe c ts o f b ery lliu m a re n o t j
f e l t o r do n o t become d is a b lin g u n t i l te n o r t-w rlte o r f i f - j
te e n y e a rs l a t e r , .n ev erth elo ss, i f the co n d itio n a ris e s
|
o u t o f a/id In th e co u rse o f th e e-splcyraent, th a n i t sh o u ld j i
b o c c a p o n 3a ta d *
;
BY ?!R. WAT?:Ha:
j
Eure Is an im p o rtan t q u e s tio n , gentlem en, one
j
w ith w hich I , upon which I p e rs o n a lly have had a stro n g
;
o p i n i o n . I 'm g o in g t o d i r e c t i t to two members o f tins p a n e l ,
Ben K auchie and Roy H am lin- In y o u r o p in io n ., should em ploy e e s 1 3 p o i'ic itb e d t o S n waivers When ontlm<i exposure to
- would d e f in ite ly je o p a rd iz e th e ir fu tu re h e a lth u n d e r th e
s t a t u t e o f many s t a t e s , p r o v is io n I s made f o r an em ployee
727.
to sig n a w aiver w hich w ould li m it or e lim in a te the c o n tin
u in g m onetary l i a b i l i t y o f th e em ployer u n d er the s ta tu te * ; i
May I r e p e a t th e q u e s t i o n : S h o u ld em p lo y ees b s p e r m i t t e d t o i
s ig n w aiv ers whan c o n tin u ed ex p o su re w ould d e f i n i t e l y
|
je o p a rd is e th e ir fu tu re h e a lth ? W ill you say a word about (
t h a t , Ben?
\
S I ,iMR. KSUCH~L S :
||
p e rso n a lly , I th in k w aivers a re an abom ination* i
Wo h av e n e v e r p e r m i t t e d a p o l i c y h o l d e r o f o u r s , k n o w in g ly ,
to tak e a w aiver from an em ployee# I f a man's c o n d itio n is i
J s u c h t h a t he sh o u .,d n t r e m a in a t f u r t h e r e x p o s u r e , S h o re i s j
o n ly one humane t h i n g t o do an d t h a t *s -- w hat h a p p e n e d --
tli re i s o n ly one humans th in g to do anc th a t i s tales h3ra i i
o u t o f th e em ploym ent, h u t to ta k e aw&y, w h ieh m oat em ploy i eoa c a t u n d e r s ta n d when th o y s ig n w hat th e y c a l l a w%iv i
e r , b u t the im p lic a tio n s of i t they do n o t u n d o rstan d and ,
n o v e r w i l l unciers n d , an d I t h i n k i t *3 n o t h i n g s h o r t o f ;
c rim in a l to p e rm it the ta k in g of w aivers*
ET
V?A'ESRS S
;
D o c to r H am lin , w i l l you. comment f o r j u s t a moment
upon t h a t subject?
gV T)0('rV
1" 5 I think that most of U3 would agree that, with
what E en just said, . a t it isn't the fair thing to ask any
employee to sign a waiver, anything that might possioly
728
!t
fj
I: p r e j u d i c e h i s f u t u r e h e a l t h . T h e re a r e o t h e r t h i n g s , how - j
e v e r, th a t m ight e f f e c t th a t*
j
I f an em ployee co u ld be p u t to work w ith the a s - | j
sur& nce th a t he would n o t s u f f e r any more exposure and I
mean thro u g h th e use o f in d u s tr i a l h y g ien e and d u st v e n ti
i!; l a t i o n an d c u t t i n g down a l l b a x a rd o u s e x p o s u r e s , th v n , o f !
c o u r s e , a w a iv e r w o u ld n ' t b e r., c a s s a r y * I s e e no o b j e c t , j \i
w hatsoever, and I don't th in k th a t you can - you can take aj i
c h a n c e ev en w hore you ?ive e x p o s u r e t h a t ' s p r e t t y w e ll c o n - ; i
t r o l l e d , in allo w in g an em ployee to c o n tin u e whore th e re |
m ig h t bo cc.no h a z a rd *
j
2Tow, t h a t b r i n g s u o t h e q u e s t i o n o f raain tan c
J
on th a t jo b , Ua knew p e r f e c t ly w e ll t h a t you can red u ce
I d u at c o n c e n tra tio n s to a s a tis f a c to r y s a fe li m it and can 1 |i c a r r y o n , b u t u n l e s s t h a t i s m a in ta i n e d a d e q u a te l y o v e r a
long p erio d o f tim e, and c o n s ta n tly k e p t in m ind, you can j
n o t g u a ra n te e t h a t t h a t em ployee i s n o t g o in g to have some j
fu tu re exposure* L eg ally , as fa r as I u n d erstan d , i t 's not!
p e rm issib le and I d o n 't th in k th a t i t should even be con- j
I;
sideno ,
:
TiY liR. WATERSI Glad to say that these gentlemen agree with me.
Eoctor Grans tain of South Africa is with us, and if ho *d be
kind enough, I'd. a p p r e c i a t e it if h e 'd say just a word '3
to the practice in his country, as to the use of waivers,
729.
D o c to r , w ould y o u bo g o o d gnough to do t h a t ? Do you m ind j
coming to th e p la tfo rm , p le a s e , s i r ?
I
BY DOCTOR Q dNST.OJ.H:
:
I t I s , by s t a t u t e , f o rb id d e n to sigyi such a waiver
The u n d e r ly in g p h ilo s o p h y t h a t you may - t h a t you n ay p r o - j
J u d ie s y o u r own r i g h t s , b u t y o u hav e no r i g n t w h a te v e r to
p re ju d ic e the rig h ts o f your dependants*
B--Y --1-5?. W-A T3?.S: Thank you, D octor.
I'm going to pose one
q u a a tio n to th e two cotan is alo n e r s who a r e p r o s e n t*
i 1j
racro | i
I think ;
it s an im p o rta n t q u e s tio n , b e c a u se o f th e symposium h are* and
Now, g e n e r a l I n t e r e s t a n d c o n c e r n w ith t h e s e c o n c e r n e d w ith j
com pensation laws* The q u e stio n is t h i s .
; I d i r e c t i t f i r s t t o Com
m issio n e r W isely and, se co n d ly , to Com m issioner H ill , and I i f B i l l C onnolly w ants to g e t mad w ith them . I 'l l l i s t a n t o ]
j him f o r a h a lf a m in u te s C om m issioners, from your *jxper- I
l a n c e , w hat i s th e m oat d i f f i c u l t p r o Diem -vn d e te r m in in g |
c o n te ste d pneum oconioses cases? it o , w ould you say a word
about that?
BY CHi iKISSIOIBR Vf fSF.LY ;
L e t me p u t t h i s i n th e r e c o r d ; I'y s n sw a r i s ,
j j e l l , i d o n 't h av e a n y . You a s k e d me to s p e a k fro m e x p o r -
i . i c e * F r a n k ly , th e f i r s t se v e n y e a r s o f my e x p e r ie n c e have been just a hit and miss proposition, and I couldn't get
I
730.
D o c to r R ic h a r d s to h e l p ms make o r r e a d th e X -ra y e &nd a r - ;
r i v e a t a c 'a g n o s i a , we j u s t h a d to a c c e p t th o r e p o r t o f j
some s i l l y a ss s e n t i n , b a s in g h is d ia g n o s is e n t i r e l y on j em ploym ent h i s t o r y , no know ledge o f w h e th e r th e man d id o r
d i d n o t h av e e x p o s u r e , an d s i n c e we h av e h a d o u r m e d ical
p a n e l , wo h av e p ro v e n r a t h e r c o n c l u s i v e l y t h a t wa have a I
H e ll o f a l o t o f d o c to rs in U tah who d o n 't know s i l i c o s i s |
'
j
from m easles, and you m ight be in te re s te d to know, th a t b a -j
cause o f our a u to p sy , com pulsc-y au to p sy law , tw enty nsn j i
who havo b o o n p r o c e s s e d b y o u r p a n e l o f e x p e r t s d i e d .
j
d id a p o s t on very on o f th e m . *fe w e r e n 't s a t i s f i e d j u s t c u r p a n e l d ia g n o s is . I s e n t many o f them to C anada, j
some to D o c to r S a n d e r, some to D o c to r P a n d o r g r a a s , and i n
e v e r y s i n g l e i n s t a n c e , th e y v e r i f i e d th e d i a g n o s i s o f ou
p an el and, of co u rse, the autopsy v e r if ie d the d iag n o sis
o f b o t h g r o u r s , so a t th o p r e s e n t t i m e , X s a y we a o n ' t
have any d i f f i c u l t /.
j
How, i f y o u w a n t t o go i n t o th e q u e s t i o n o f exoosj*
u r e , th e re ag ain I ha sox-ry to say to you, In s p ite o f th a j d o u b ts t h a t some o f y o u seem to have t h a t we d o n 't have a-uyi
problem , because in 19: , the very f i r s t caso th a t I p ro - ; c e s s e d , I p e r s o n a l l y h e a r d i t , w ro te tn e d e c i s i o n . 1$ waxVt to th e Supreme C o u rt and I was a ffirm e d . The ev id en ce show ed, and th e n o d ic a l te s -mony was G o d -aw fu l r o t t e n ,
a l l we h ad was the r a d i o l o g i s t s * r e a d i n g o f th e f il m , *nd
JJL
h is diagnosis of s ilic o s is , and in a c tiv e tu b ercu lo sis*
|
How, th e S t a t e I n s u r a n c e Fund d i d n ' t do a n y th in g i
ab o u t I t so th e r e c o r d s to o d . The em ployer was u n p re d ic te d *
and th e s u p e rin te n d e n t of th e m ind t e s t 'f l e d th a t th a ro wasj
|
some s i l i c a r o c k i n th s m ine an d th e e v id e n c e show ed t h a t j
t h a t u e s th e o n ly p la c e th e man w o rk ed , so I f l a i l , on t h a t j
re c o rd , g en tlem en , th i s nan has made a p rim a f a c ie c a s e . ;
lie h a s th e d i s e a s e , h e ' s t o t a l l y d i s a b l e d , t h i s l a th s o n ly !
p la c e he w orked, th e evidonde shows th a t th e re was f r e e j
s i l i c a d i - r 'do d u s t e x p o s u r e , s o we .uado th e a w a rd . The j
Supreme C ourt s a id , t h a t 's r i g h t , and our c o u rt h as gone | i
fa v th n r than th a t.
]
i
A il o f our c a s e s , so f a r , erase from th e m in s. C ur;
Supreme C ourt ta k a s ju d ic ia l n o tic e o f th e f a c t th a t ovary
n o n -fe rro u s rains and vary c o a l ra.lne i n th e S t a t e o f U ta h
h a s ox* e x p o s e s t h e e m p lo y ee to f r e e s i l i c a d i o x i d e d x ta t, so j
I5
wo d o n ' t h a v e eay p r o b le m .
'
!
IT-ow, wo h a v e t h a t t h i r t y d a y t h i n g . The l a s t era-! I
plo-yer is l i a b l e , in o th e r w o rd s, th e l a s t em ployer i n whoso
|
employ the em p lo y se was exposed, to f r e e s ilic o n , d io x id e
j
d u s t , h n o *;er t a k e s th e t r o u b l e an y n o r e to rahke d u s t c o u n t
We d o n ' t h a v e to >,o i n t o t h e e v i d e n c e J we d o n 't hav e a n y
p r o b l ora.
py
WA':.:
lira I'm going to ask you to ta k e th re e m inutes
211*-
to comment on th a t s u b je c t, i f y o u w i l l , p le a s e . For th e b e n e f i t o f the a u d ien ce, I ' l l r e p e a t th e q u e s tio n : From your ex p erien ce, what is the m ost d i f f i c u l t problem In d eterm in in g co n tested pneum oconioses cases?
BY COMMISSIONER HILL:
j
I :,sh t h a t I c o u ld a g r e e w i t h my b r o t h e r , M r. j
W ise ly . Our b ig g e s t problem is sim p ly t h i s : Is th e man j
d is a b l e d ? How, i, n - IT ccaann li ll ll jusswt raa -t *e i- tc, b e s t byj a c c u p lo j
_
I
of ty p ical situ a tio n s.
j
H ere i s a man i n h i s f i f t h d e c a d e , who h a s b o o n j
w orking in a foundry fo r tw enty o r t h i r t y y e a rs , end a l l |
o f a su d d en ho s a y s , I c a n 't ta k e i t any m ore; I 'm t l r o d c*
Im a l l i n , I 'm s h o r t b r e a t h w a lk in g u p s t a i r s . i*y c1-9 '
fo o ls kind of tig h t and I'm coughing e l l the tim e; so ne '
j u s t q u i t s . lie d o e s n 't , h e h a s n ' t b e e n to a l a w y e r . Ho ,
going to g et th ere p re tty soon. go ho s t a r t s a c la im .
j II j u s t s a y s he c a n ' t workj
and th e n , o f course, w e're In th is d isp u te d m edical .g a in , |
an d i s t h a t man d is a b l e d ? He s a y s h o c a n ' t w o rk . T h - o i
may b e some d is a g re e m e n t a s ira..r.. aa tt ^^aa xa "p tiV. di. *atP."i*0w5-`J
i
e o n c . ^ . 4. l t f t e q u a n t l y , . , ' U
. ha. rtth w *
s i l i c o s i a , t h a t th a r a i s sos-.a f i n e n o a u l s t i u n , b u t t h - t
not interfere wi.th h 3 ability ttoo wwoorxkx.. Neverthe1 ess, the
man says he can't work ana, of course, the physician
t-stifvs for him says it would not b e advisable for b -- to^
r e tu r n to work* Tb^en we have th e s i t u a t i o n w h ere a man h a s b e e n
w o rk in g a lo n g tim e , p r o b a b ly i n th e same age g r o u p . Ke j
& ats a stu b b o rn c o ld , maybe i t ' s b r o n c h it is , maybe ha has j
p le u ris y . H e's tre a te d d u rin g th e w in te r by h is fa m ily
j
ph y sician and in the course of the trea tm e n t, th e p h y sician .
s e n d s him to a radiologist and r.e s a y s t n a t
- sep o its ,
th a t he has e a r ly s i l i c o s i s , maybe sane m in e ra l f i b r o s i s , I
maybe some m ore, so th e f a m ily p h y s ic ia n t o l l s th e man, you |
g o t d u s t in your lu n g s, J o e , you s h o u ld n 't go back to work j
a t th e v,;r.a *ob -1*11 p r e p a r e a n o te end y o u ta k o t h a t i n j
to your em ployer when you go back to w ork, so he d o e s, and j
th e e m p lo y e r s a y s , 0. K ., a n d y o u h a v e th e p l a n t p h y s i c i a n j
examine I n, ta k e X -rays and th e y s a y , y e a , y o u 'v e g o t a j
m ineral s i l i c o n s , b u t i t w o n 't in te r f e r e w ith your r e t u r n - |
in g t o th e seme j o b . You e i t h e r w ork a t t h r r jo b o r no 40b j
at a ll.
; 'jew, how i n th o w o r ld do y o u d e c id e th o s e c a s e s ? j
Those &re j u s t sim ply a lm o s t in su rm o u n ta b le p ro b lem s, and i t
r. . \ rv
nn ae t h a t to b e r e a l i s t i c i n th o f i r s t i l l u s t r a t i o n ,
ivore
aa smt an w ith a good w ork r e c o r d o f lo n g y e a r s an d e l l
c; & C1i1addr~'e#5npi be q u i t s . &: we g o in g t o say t h a t he i s n o t :
d is e o lo dd ,9 b e c a u s e y o u lo o k a t th e X -ra y e v id e n c e an d you lloo oo kk a tt tthh oo X -ra y an d y o u s a y , n o , t h i s d o e s n 't f i t th e
pp aa tt tt ee rr nn oo ff one n an who i s s u p p o s e d to bo d i s a b l e d from
.m u .
s i l i c o s l s t And i n th e seco n d i n s t a n c e , a r e we g o in g t o s a y ;
t h a t th e man d o e s r t h av e a r i g h t to r e l y on th e a d v ic e o f '
h is fam ily physician?
BY ;-3. W ATSRSt I t* a a good th in g t h a t t h a t q u e s tio n was n o t d ir - !
a c t e d t o a la w y e r a s to w hat he c o n s id e r s t o b e th e mos j
d i f f i c u l t problem d e a lin g w ith c o n te ste d pneum oconioses |
c a s e s , b ecau se i t m ight n o t r e f l e c t to o much c r e d i t upon j
some o f th e C om m issioners#
j
G entlem en, i t is indeed w ith r e g r e t th a t I m ust |
j
b r in g t h i s p a n e l d is c u s s io n to a c l o s e , bocau.se many of
j
th e q u e stio n s th a t ' ave been p re s e n te d , and X su re
|
many o f thorn a t i l l in y o u r m in d s, a r a h ig h ly c o n t r o v e r s i a l
and I*m c e r t a i n t h a t th e re e x i s t d if f e r e n c e s o f o p in io n
among us w ith r e s p e c t t o them# I th in k i t i s o n ly f a i r to |
s a y t h a t we a r e in d o b t a d to t h e S a ra n a c L a b o r a to r y f o r t h i s
o p p o rtu n ity to racoive "uc;. a u th o rita tiv e in fo rm atio n and
ad v ice about th o se problem s w ith which a l l of us must d o ai
in the tra n sa c tio n of our re sp e c tiv e b u sin esses#
i
!
On your behalf, I wish to thr.nl: the participants ;
in the panel for the excellent presentations that they have .
made and for their honest expressions of ooini and on
their behalf, I wish to thank you for your interest, con
sideration and participation in the proceedings of tne panel#
I know t h a t D o c to r V orw ald and h i s a s s o c i a t e s i n th e l a b o r a t o r y
TMSN m )M PASI 735.
** deeply ind*btd to you end to th a p a rtic ip a n te In the program f o r th a job th a t thsy fesra doaa l a th e i r c o n trib u tio n s, od near, Doctor Torwald.