Document 6GGaoBmxqzqD00Be0gYnzRq3

IN THE MATTER OF: TENNESSEE GAS PIPELINE COMPANY vs. MONSANTO COMPANY Cause No. 94-CI90145 Deposition of DONALD A, OLSON OCTOBER 18, 1995 ,Gore & Perry Reporting Company 100 North Broadway Suite 1175 Saint Louisy Missouri 63102 (314) 241-6750 621-4790 (800) 878-6750 ARR WATER PCB-SDOOOO014866 221 1 COMES NOW THE WITNESS, DONALD A. OLSON, and having 2 read the foregoing transcript of the deposition 3 taken on the 18th day of October, 1995, acknowledges 4 by signature hereto that it is a true and accurate 5 transcript of the testimony given on the date 6 hereinabove mentioned. 7 8 9 1 0 DONALD A. OLSON 11 12 Subscribed and sworn to me before this 13 J fl hh - day of _______________/ , 1995 . 14 My Commission expires: 15 16 17 18 Notary Public 19 JOHN G. YOCH 2 0 Notary Public Notary Seal 2 1 STATE OF MISSOURI 2 2 rg 23 24 25 Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014867 (314) 241-67S0 (314) 621-4790 (800)-8 78-6750 Gore & Perry Reporting Company 100 North Broadway Suite 1175 Saint Louis, Missouri 63102 Page 11 Line 22 Should read: Reason for assigned change: Page 17 Line 2 Should read: Reason for assigned change: Page 25 Line 6 Should read: Reason for assigned change: Page 29 Line 8 Should read: Reason for assigned change: Page 37 Line 19 Should read: Reason for assigned change: Page 37 Line 22 Should read: Reason for assigned change: Page 39 Line 21 Should read: Reason for assigned change: Page 60 Line 13 Should read: Reason for assigned change:- Page 86 Line 11 Should read: Reason for assigned change: Page 100 Line 18 Should read: Reason for assigned change: Page 100 Line 21 Should read: Reason for assigned change: eliminate "pun" "Skydrol" "Kanaka" "Kanaka" "Kanaka" "say" "false" "biphenyl" "effect" "effects" Fax (314) 241-5070 WATER PCB-SDOOOO014868 (314) 241-6750 (314) 621-4790 (800)S7S-6750 Gore & Perry Reporting Company 100 North Broadway Suite 1175 Saint Louis, Missouri 63102 Page 105 Line 5 Should read: Reason for assigned change: Page 105 Line 7 Should read: Reason for assigned change: Page 145 Line 15 Should read: Reason for assigned change: Page 156 Line 8 Should read: Reason for assigned change: Page 156 Line 8 Should read: Reason for assigned change: Page 209 Line 11 Should read: Reason for assigned change: Page Line Should read: Reason for assigned change: Page Line Should read: Reason for assigned change.: . . Page Line Should read: Reason for assigned change: Page Line Should read: Reason for assigned change: Page Line Should read: Reason for assigned change: "Skydrol" "Skydrols" "Norm" "Helila" "Pullman" "Aroclor" Fax (314) 241-5070 WATER PCB-SDOOOO014869 2 1 COMMONWEALTH OF KENTUCKY 2 ROWAN CIRCUIT COURT 3 CIVIL BRANCH 4 5 TENNESSEE GAS PIPELINE COMPANY, 6 7 Plaintiff, 8 9 vs NO. 94-CI90145 10 11 MONSANTO COMPANY, 12 13 De fendant. 14 15 Deposition of DONALD A. OLSON, taken on behalf 16 of the Plaintiff, at the offices of Thompson & 1 7 Mitchell, One Mercantile Center, in the City of St. 18 Louis, State of Missouri, on the 18th day of 1 9 October 1995 before Ronald A. Gore, Registered 2 0 Professional Reporter and Notary Public. 21 22 23 24 25 Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014870 1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: 2 3 FOR THE PLAINTIFF: 4 Mr. Steven J. Roeder 5 Hedlund, Hanley & John 6 Sears Tower 7 Suite 5700 8 Chicago, Illinois 60606 9 1 0 FOR THE DEFENDANT: 11 Mr. Roily L. Chambers 12 Smith, Helms, Mulliss & Moore 13 227 North Tryon Street 14 Charlotte, North Carolina 28202 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 3 WATER PCB-SD0000014871 1 INDEX 2 3 Examination by MR. ROEDER 4 5 6 EXHIBITS 7 8 Exhibit No . 168 9 Exhibit No . 16 9 10 Exhibit No . 170 11 Exhibit No . 171 12 Exhibit No . 172 13 Exhibit No . 173 14 Exhibit No . 174 15 Exhibit No . 175 1 6 Exhibit No . 176 1 7 Exhibit No . 177 1 8 Exhibit No . 178 19 Exhibit No . 179 2 0 Exhibit No . 18 0 2 1 Exhibit No . 18 1 2 2 Exhibit No . 182 2 3 Exhibit No . 183 & 184 24 Exhibit No . 185 2 5 Exhibit No . 18 6 PAGE 6 27 28 44 51 54 63 68 72 10 2 14 4 16 5 16 7 16 9 17 0 172 17 8 18 1 18 2 Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 4 WATER PCB-SD0000014872 1 Exhibit No . 18 7 2 Exhibit No . 18 8 3 Exhibit No . 18 9 4 Exhibit No . 19 0 5 Exhibit No . 19 1 6 Exhibit No . 19 2 7 Exhibit No . 19 3 8 Exhibit No . 194 9 Exhibit No . 195 1 0 Exhibit No . 19 6 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 18 3 18 5 18 6 18 8 19 0 19 5 19 7 201 210 2 15 5 WATER PCB-SDOOOO014873 6 1 DONALD A. OLSON, 2 of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to 3 testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but 4 the truth in the case aforesaid, deposes and says in 5 reply to oral interrogatories propounded as follows, 6 to -wit : 7 EXAMINATION 8 QUESTIONS BY MR. ROEDER: 9 Q: Good morning, sir. 1 0 A: Good morning. . 11 Q: My name is Steven Roeder, and I represent 12 the plaintiff in this case, Tennessee Gas. We've not 13 met before today, have we? 14 A: No, we haven't. 15 Q: You have testified before? 1 6 A : Yes . 17 Q: Let's state your name for the record, 18 please? 1 9 A: Donald Albert Olson. 2 0 Q: Mr. Olson, where do you reside? 2 1 A: Number 3 Old Colony, 0-1-d, Colony, St. 22 Louis 6 3 13 1 . 2 3 Q: And what do you do for a living, sir? 24 A: I am chairman of a company called 2 5 Benchcraft, Inc., which is a material storage Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014874 7 1 distributor. 2 Q: You've tendered to the court reporter a . 3 card, Benchcraft, Inc., which is on Ashby Road in 4 S t . Louis ? 5 A : Yes. 6 Q: Can you describe what a - 7 A: Products that are used primarily in a 8 warehouse, such as shelving and pallet rack, 9 mezzanines, carousels. And we both sell equipment 1 0 and install. 11 Q: How long have you been chairman of 12 Benchcraft? 13 A: Since October 1988. 14 Q: When did you join Benchcraft? 15 A: October 1988. 1 6 Q: You joined as chairman? 17 A: Yes. 1 8 Q: Did you form the company? 1 9 A: No. It had been in existence since 1950. 2 0 Q: Are you a member of its board of directors? 2 1 A: I am its board of directors. 2 2 Q: Do you own the company? 23 A: I am -- I own 50 percent, but the founder 24 is a major shareholder. It was founded in 1950. 2 5 And there are a couple of other minor shareholders. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014875 8 1 Q: Are you being represented here today by 2 counsel? 3 A : Yes, I am . 4 Q : Who is your attorney? 5 A : Mr . Chambers. 6 Q : Did you request that Mr. Chambers represent 7 y ou ? 8 A : As a -- no, sir. You mean by name? I 9 don ' t - 1 0 Q : Yes, by name. 11 A : No , I did not. 12 Q : Did you request that an attorney represent 13 you ? 14 A: I believe it was discussed in my first 15 conversation with Monsanto, where they said there 16 could be one available. 1 7 Q: If you wanted one? 18 A: I don't remember how it came up. But it 1 9 certainly was acceptable to me. 2 0 Q: You're not compensating Mr. Chambers for 2 1 representing you here today? 22 A : No, I'm not. 2 3 Q : Monsanto is? 24 A: I don't know that. I hope somebody is. 2 5 Q: You haven't agreed to pay his bill? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014876 9 1 A : No . 2 Q: Do you own stock in Monsanto? 3 A: Very minor now. It's probably less than 150 4 s hare s. 5 Q: Do you draw a pension? 6 A : Yes, I do . 7 Q: You were a long standing employee of 8 Monsanto ? 9 A: 25 years. 10 Q: Let's get a little bit of your background, 11 sir. Let's go back on an educational basis and then 12 work up until the time that you joined Benchcraft as 13 its chairman. Okay? 14 A: Okay. Allow me the liberty of guessing on a 15 few dates. Okay? 16 Q: Okay. I think I've got a document that was 1 7 provided by Monsanto that purports to have some 1 8 dates, but I can't put my hands on it. 1 9 A: I can come up with most of them. 2 0 Q: Okay. Where did you go to college, sir? 2 1 A: I have a chemical engineering degree from 2 2 the University of Michigan. 2 3 Q: When did you get your degree? 24 A: February of 1956. And then I have a 2 5 master's in business administration from Harvard. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014877 _________________________________________________ 10 1 Q: Let me stop you there. What is the 2 discipline of chemical engineering? What do 3 chemical engineers do? 4 A: They're primarily concerned with process 5 operations. 6 Q: When you say process, process of operations 7 or - 8 A: Process operations. 9 Q: Process operations. What does that mean to 1 0 a layman like me? 11 A: Okay. It's where you start with whatever 12 base chemicals you're going to begin with, you're 13 trying to get to an end product, and so it is all 14 the vessels and the operations you have to go 15 through from the time you first put ingredients in 16 until you get the final product. It could be 1 7 drying, it could be centrifuging, it could be 1 8 heating; anything they have to do to make the final 1 9 chemical. 2 0 Q: Assuming you would take -- can I use the 2 1 word base chemicals? 22 A ; Sure. 2 3 Q: How you mix them, heat them, process them to 24 come up with some product at the end? 2 5 A : Right. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014878 ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 11 1 Q: Okay. And in 1956 when you got your degree 2 from the University of Michigan, did you intend to 3 work as a chemical engineer? 4 A : Yes, I did. 5 Q: And how long did you work as a chemical 6 e ng i n e.e r ? 7 A: With Monsanto? I don't mean to -8 Q: What I'm looking for is prior to the time 9 you went to Harvard. 10 A: None. No, that's not right. Pardon me. I . 11 worked a few months for Midwest Research Institute 1 2 in Kansas City, Missouri, maybe six months or 1 3 something like that, while I was waiting to go into 14 the Air Force. 15 Q: Was it always your intention to go to 16 Harvard? 1 7 A: At that time, no. No. 1 8 Q: And so after you were discharged from the 1 9 service, you went to Harvard? 2 0 A: Well, I worked -- I worked in Kansas City 2 1 for Butler Manufacturing, the Butler Building 2 2 people, and while I was applying to the various 2 3 graduate schools. And then I guess I started there 24 in January of '58, and then I went to school in 2 5 September of '58, so whatever the period was. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014879 __________________________________________________12 1 Q: So at least from the time you left the 2 service you had intended to go to a business school? ~ 3 A : Ye s . 4 Q: And then you applied and you were accepted 5 by Harvard, so you went to Harvard? 6 A : Yes. 7 Q: When did you get your MBA? 8 A: 19 6 0. 9 Q: And then did you join Monsanto shortly after 10 graduation? 11 A: Yes, I did. 12 Q: And what was your first position at 13 Monsanto? 14 A: I was a technical service engineer at the 15 Queeny plant, so I did practice as a chemical 16 enginee r. 1 7 Q: Now, was that track, if I can use that word, 18 is that a chemical engineering track or a management 1 9 track? 2 0 A: I'll tell you what I thought I wanted to do 2 1 at that time. 2 2 Q: All right. Why don't you tell me that, 2 3 then? 24 A: My goal was to be a plant manager, you know, 2 5 of a large chemical -- one of their plants, so, Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014880 __________________________________________________13 1 yes, at that time I was on a manufacturing or 2 engineering track. 3 Q: At some point to become a plant manager you 4 had to work in the plant and understand how the 5 plants were set up and working? 6 A : Ye s . 7 Q: It was with that in mind that you accepted 8 the position at the Queeny plant? 9 A : Yes . 1 0 Q: Is that in St. Louis? 11 A: Yes, it is. 12 Q: On the Missouri side or the Illinois side? 13 A: Missouri. It's the original Monsanto plant. 14 Q: That still functions today? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Well, did your goal in Monsanto change at 17 any time? 18 A: During that time that I was at the Queeny 19 p1ant . 2 0 Q: And how did that change? 2 1 A: Because the biggest day of the year was when 22 the marketing person would come down and tell us 23 what was going on, so I just felt that the real - 24 you know, that the excitement and the heart of the 2 5 company was more in the commercial area than in the Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014881 14 1 manufacturing area. 2 Q: The action was in the - 3 A: Yes, that's the best word, that's where the 4 action was. 5 Q: The action was in the selling and the - 6 A: And marketing. 7 Q: Rather than simply producing a product? 8 A: To me it was, yes. 9 Q: So how did your shift in focus evidence 10 itself first? Did you change your position from 11 Queeny? 12 A: Yes. I was there approximately two years. 13 Several of these are two years. My next position 14 was in the commercial development department of the 15 organic division. 1 6 Q: Now, at Queeny, let me just step back for a 17 second, as a technical service engineer, would it 18 have been your duty simply to assist in processing 1 9 the product ? 2 0 A: You would do such things as undertake 2 1 studies to improve the yield, you would work on 2 2 expansions, new pieces of equipment, if they needed 23 it. 24 Q: Expansion meaning - 2 5 A: Of that one operation. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014882 _________________________________________________ 15 1 Q: So instead of having one machine to make the 2 product, you might need two? 3 A : That 1 s right. 4 Q: So you'd be there assisting the installation 5 of that and getting that new equipment on line? 6 A: Right. And you would probably have 7 specified or designed the equipment, unless it was 8 very large . 9 Q: And in the commercial development department 1 0 of the organic division in approximately 1962, I 11 think that would take us to, what did you do? 12 A: The commercial development was the group 13 that developed new products, so it's kind of in 14 between manufacturing and marketing. And I was 15 involved with finding new products. 1 6 Q: What new products would you have assisted in 1 7 developing or finding? 18 A: Probably the major one, I was responsible 1 9 for the commercial introduction, not the finding, 2 0 but the commercial introduction of lactic acid. 2 1 Q: What is lactic acid? 2 2 A: It's a food acid, it's used in emulsifiers. 2 3 Mother's milk has lactic acid in it. And this was 24 the first synthetic lactic acid plant in the world. 2 5 It had always been by fermentation before. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014883 __________________________________________________________________________________________ _____________________ 16 1 Q: So you synthesized it rather than - 2 A: Rather than fermenting it. 3 Q: Rather than growing it as such? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Any other types of things you can recall 6 that you would have been involved with in that time 7 period? 8 A: Oh, I did studies in the flavoring market, 9 food flavorings. 10 Q: And how long were you in the commercial 11 development department? 12 A: Around two years. 13 Q: That brings us to about '64? 14 A: '64, '65, somewhere in there. 15 Q: Give or take a year? 1 6 A : Right . 17 Q: At this point I'm not that concerned about 18 the specific dates, but - 1 9 A : Sure. 2 0 Q: What happened then? 2 1 A: Then lactic acid was ready to be turned over 2 2 to the -- was established and ready to be turned 2 3 over to the marketing department. I went with it, 24 and - 2 5 Q: Your baby, so to speak? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014884 __________________________________________________ 17 1 A : Yes. 2 Q: No punn intended. 3 A: All right. I caught it. So I became a 4 product specialist in food ingredients. 5 Q: Okay. Was that the title that you had, a 6 product specialist? 7 A: I believe it was. 8 Q: And how long did you hold that title? 9 A: Approximately two years. 10 Q : So by - - 11 A: I'll tell you, let's see, this is probably 12 until the middle of '66, I would guess, somewhere 13 about there. 14 Q: And at about that time did you change your 15 position? 16 A : Ye s, sir. 17 Q: How did your position change? 18 A: I became -- I went to New York as a field 1 9 manager to manage a sales group in New York. 2 0 Q: I think I found the document that I was 2 1 thinking of. Sales director, or product manager, 2 2 food and fine chemicals? 23 A: No, before that. 24 Q: Industry manager, food and fine chemicals? 2 5 A: That would have been it. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014885 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 18 Q : Okay. A: Which was a selling job. Q: So, you were now off of the development side, you were dealing particularly and directly with customers? A: Right. I was off of the marketing side and into the selling side, yes. Q: How do you understand the difference between marketing and selling? A: The sales organization has the direct responsibility for customers, of customer sales. The marketing, to my mind, is the development of pricing, the focal point for working with other groups on demand, the budgeting, the advertising, various marketing plans, the writing of the marketing plan. Q: More the support functions and the inside workings as opposed to the man dealing particularly with the customer? A: Right. Q: Okay. Was that an understanding that you believed that Monsanto had at that time as to the functions between sales and marketing? A: Certainly, it was mine. Q: Then in 1968 you became a product manager Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014886 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 19 for food and fine chemicals? A : Yes. Q: And that would be here, then, in St. Louis? A: Yes, sir. Q: What was involved in particular with that function? A: I was responsible for all of the products that were in the food and fine group from a marketing standpoint. Q: So you came back from sales into marketing again? A : Exactly. Q : Was that a step up? A : Yes. Q : You had that function for approximately a year ? A : Six months. Q : Six months. A : Something like that, six or seven. Q : And, then, what's your best recollection I am interested in a more precise recollection, if you have it. So for six or seven months in 1968 you held that function. And then what happened next? I mean, what was your next position? A: Then I became the director of -- I forget Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (.314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014887 20 1 what they call it, director of sales for functional 2 fluids, sales director. 3 Q: Seems like a very quick move into the 4 functional fluids; what prompted that quick move? 5 Was it that a new position opened up or did you - 6 A: I believe -- now, I believe that Howard 7 Bergen had been the sales director and he was 8 promoted to business director. I'm not positive 9 about that, but I think that's right. And, 1 0 therefore, there was an opening for the sales 11 director. 12 Q: Had you known Mr. Bergen prior to this time? 13 A: Yes. I had known him, yes. 14 Q: Had you reported to him before this? 15 A : No . 16 Q: Was it typical in Monsanto that people who 1 7 were in management would change positions every two 1 8 or three years? 1 9 A: That's kind of fast, I think. 2 0 Q; You were on a quicker track than you had 2 1 seen other people on? 2 2 A : Yes. 2 3 Q: So Mr. Bergen, did he request that you take 24 the position that he had previously held? 2 5 A : I don't know. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014888 21 1 Q s How did you come to learn that you were 2 under consideration for the position? 3 A: When it was offered to me. 4 Q: You didn't interview for it? 5 A : No . 6 Q: Who offered you the position? 7 A : Mr. Bergen. 8 Q: What was your reaction when he offered you 9 the position? 1 0 A: I was very pleased. 11 Q: Accepted it immediately? 12 A: Sure. As long as it's doesn't involve a 13 move you can do that, but -14 Q: Moves take a little more discussion? 15 A: Yes. You've got to handle them differently. 1 6 Q: By this time you had just made it back from 1 7 New York, so, presumably, you didn't want to move 18 any further? 1 9 A: Right. 2 0 Q: What were your duties as sales director for 2 1 functional fluids when you accepted that position? 2 2 A: Both sales and marketing and all the people 2 3 who were in one or the other parts -- who were in 24 either one, sales or marketing. 2 5 Q: When you say both, does that mean everyone Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014889 _________________________________________________ 22 1 reported to you who was in that function? 2 A: Yes. Within fluids, yes. Not directly, 3 obviously, but -4 Q: But ultimately, correct? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And then would you have reported to Mr. 7 Bergen? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: And he was the senior-most manager in that 10 division, correct, or that group? 11 A: In that group, yes. 12 Q: And Mr. Bergen would have reported to whom? 13 A: At the time the head of the organic 14 division, I believe, was Howard Minckler, I believe. 15 Q : Mr. - 16 A: M-i-n-c-k-1-e-r. And I don't know whether 17 John Mason was there at the beginning in between 18 Bergen and Minckler. 1 9 Q : All right. 2 0 A: I just don't -- he was in there sometime 2 1 during that period, but I don't know when. 22 Q: Above Minckler? 23 A: Probably the president. 24 Q: Okay. So you were two or three rungs 2 5 removed from the presidency at that point in terms Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014890 __________________________________________________23 1 of reporting authority, at least steps up? 2 A: Seemed like a a long way to me. 3 Q: It always does. But is that fair in terms 4 of the different reporting relationships? 5 A: Yes. I don't know, there might have been 6 one more intermediary between the president and -7 Q: Did you consider yourself as being part of 8 management at that point? 9 A: Yes. 1 0 Q: And approximately how many people reported 11 to you as sales director, directly or indirectly? 12 A: I'd have to guess, I really don't know. 13 Q: But more than 30? 14 A: I was going to say 25 or 30, that's what I 15 was going to guess, but I don't know. It could be 1 6 more than 3 0. 1 7 Q: Were you salaried? 18 A: Yes. 1 9 Q: Was there a bonus that you would be eligible 2 0 for depending upon the productivity and profits that 2 1 the functional fluids group were able to achieve in 2 2 a given year? 23 A : No . 24 Q: Were there options available at any point 2 5 based upon performance that you would have as a Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014891 24 1 sales 2 A: Stock options? 3 Q: Yes. Any type of compensation that would be 4 tied to how well your group performed. 5 A: I've got to say two things. 6 Q : Okay. 7 A: First, I don't know when I got stock 8 options. I did get some, and I really have no 9 idea. And it is not my belief that when I did get 1 0 them that it was based upon the function of a group, 11 you know, of a small group, it was more -- I'm sure 12 it was probably based upon the results of some 13 larger entity. 14 Q: Now, at the time that you went into the 15 functional fluids group you had not really been 1 6 involved in functional fluids? 1 7 A : No , I had not. 1 8 Q: Okay. Was that true as well during your 1 9 time at the Queeny Plant? I mean - 2 0 A: Some of the functional fluids were made 2 1 there, but I do not recall that I worked in any of 2 2 them. I worked mostly in some of the pharmaceutical 23 product s. 24 Q: So this was a new area for you? 2 5 A: Yes, it was. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014892 _________________________________________________ 25 1 Q: What were the functional fluids in general 2 that you were involved in selling? 3 A: There were four different groups. 4 Q : Okay. 5 A: There were the dielectrics, heat transfer, 6 the industrial fluids, and Skydraul. 7 Q: Did you consider it a large amount of new 8 information to process concerning these products 9 when you took over the job? 10 A: Well, I knew nothing, so I don't know how to. 11 measure large, but, yes, I had had no real hands-on 12 knowledge of any -13 Q: Was it a profitable group when you joined 14 it? 15 A: I believe so, yes. Yes, it was. 16 Q: And do you have a recollection of the profit 17 margins in general that were associated with the 1 8 products that you were selling? 1 9 A : No , I don 1t. 2 0 Q: Okay. When, approximately, in 1968 did you 2 1 accept the position? 2 2 A : I think June. 23 Q: Okay. Well, it was early in 1968, was it 24 not, sir, that there were some initial studies or 2 5 reports concerning PCBs that were reported? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014893 26 1 A: I doonn''t recall. 2 Q: You do recall, don't you, toward the end of 3 1968 being concerned about reports, for example, 4 arising out of Sweden concerning PCBs? 5 A: I have to answer differently, if I may. The 6 first recognition that I recall about that there was 7 an environmental problem was the San Francisco 8 Chronicle article. 9 Q: And that occurred -- that's Dr. 10 Risebrough's article? 11 A: No. February '69. 12 Q: Okay. You were also concerned toward the 13 end of '68, were you not, sir, with an incident in 14 Japan arising in, I think it's Kyodo? 15 A: I can only recall that there was an 1 6 incident. I did not recall when it was until 1 7 yesterday when I looked at some documents. And I 1 8 know when it was and I know the specifics of it, but 1 9 all I remembered was that there was an incident. 2 0 Q: Well, in looking at the documents that Mr. 2 1 Chambers showed you -- by the way, how long did you 2 2 meet with Mr. Chambers yesterday? 2 3 A: Nine-thirty to two, something like that. 24 Q: Was anyone else in attendance? 2 5 A : No . Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014894 _________________________________________________ 27 1 Q: But what do you recall now that your memory 2 has been refreshed concerning that incident? 3 A: I recall now -- I don't recall now. I can 4 tell you what I read. Okay? And I'm not 5 p1 aying - 6 Q: I know. But I thought you just said you 7 didn't recall it, then you looked at it and then you 8 remembered? 9 A: No, then it told me when it was. Okay? 1 0 Q: Okay. What do you recall? 11 A : I don't recall. 12 Q: Okay. Well, let's do this, then. 13 ( Plaintiff's Exhibit 168 14 marked for identification). 15 MR. ROEDER: For the record, 168 is a copy, 16 and I apologize for the quality of it, but that's 1 7 the way it was produced to us, dated December 9, 1 8 1968. Regarding the subject, it's hard to read, but 19 it's "Bran oil poisoning by Kanoclor". The Bates 2 0 number is TRAN 57833. And it's to you, correct, 2 1 sir? 2 2 A: Yes, it is. 2 3 Q: Okay. I'm not going to ask you to try to 24 read through this poor copy, but when you look at 2 5 this, you recognize that there was an incident in Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014895 _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________28 1 Japan with respect to PCBs that were used in 2 producing, I think it was rice bran, correct? 3 A: Bran oil? 4 Q: Bran oil poisoning, but it was a rice - 5 A: Rice bran, yes. 6 Q: It was a rice product? 7 A : Yes. 8 Q: I'll show you what has previously been 9 marked as Exhibit 80. I think I have additional 1 0 copies for you. 11 MR. CHAMBERS: Thank you. 12 ( Plaintiff's Exhibit 169 13 marked for identification). 14 MR. ROEDER: Before you look at 80, let me 15 show you Plaintiff's Exhibit 169, which is a several 1 6 page document which has Bates numbers TRAN 57088 1 7 through TRAN 57092. And what I'm interested in more 18 particularly is the third page of this document, 1 9 which is a memorandum from you to W.R. Richard, 2 0 dated December 4, 1968. And if you'll take a moment 2 1 to review this. Is this one of the documents you 2 2 looked at in preparation for your testimony? 23 A : Yes, it is. 24 Q: Okay. For the record, you're indicating 2 5 that you've had the opportunity to look at it? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014896 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A : Yes. 29 Q: It's a memorandum to you from W.R. Richard dated December 4, 1968. Who was W.R. Richard? A: He was my counterpart in research, so he was the director of research for fluids. Q: All right. You were advising Mr. Richard through this memorandum regarding a competitive chlorinated byphenyl manufactured by Keneka, which was a Japanese company that you would have competed with through a Monsanto joint venture in Japan, is that correct ? A : Yes . Q: And is it also correct, sir, that there was a serious accident at an edible rice bran oil manufacturing plant, which edible oil leaked through stainless steel piping; that's what you were telling Mr. Richard, correct? A: That's what this report from our Japanese people said, yes. Q: Okay. And you passed it on to Mr. Richard because you thought he might want it for his meeting with Calandra; that's what it says, isn't it? A : Yes. Q: Who was Calandra? A: He was the head of Industrial Bio-Test, Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014897 _________________________________________________ 30 1 which was the testing -- a testing group in 2 Chicago, I believe, that did testing, animal 3 testing. 4 Q: With respect to PCBs? 5 A: It was used by Monsanto in a lot of places. 6 Q: If there were going to be any issues 7 relating to testing, generally -- are we talking 8 toxicity studies? 9 A: Yes. 1 0 Q: If there was an issue relating to the 11 toxicity of a particular chemical, Industrial 12 Bio-Test would be doing the testing on it? 13 A: Could be. 14 Q: Okay. And Calandra was the guy that you 15 dealt with at Industrial Bio-Test? 1 6 A : Yes . 17 Q: Your memorandum to Mr. Richard says, "This 18 is most distressing". Why was it most distressing? 1 9 A: I can't recall the memorandum, so I don't 2 0 know how to answer it. 2 1 Q: So even reviewing the memorandum which 22 reflects that as many as twelve thousand people 2 3 suffered from intoxication, in addition to a great 2 4 number of chickens fed with the oil that died, you 2 5 don't remember why you thought that this report was Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014898 _________________________________________________ 31 1 dis t re s sing? 2 A: I can't put myself -- when I don't 3 remember, I can't put myself back at that time. 4 Q: Well, do you recall at this time, sir, being 5 concerned as to whether or not Monsanto could 6 proceed in Japan to produce chemicals that had PCBs 7 in them? 8 A: I don't recall. 9 Q: Okay. Well, that was a purpose of MMK, as 10 it's reflected in this memorandum, correct? 11 A: I don't know if it was whether they should 12 -- you said whether they would -- I don't read 13 that part, whether they would manufacture in Japan. 14 Q: Certainly. Let me rephrase the question and 15 make sure I got it right . At some point there was a 16 joint venture that Monsanto had established or hoped 1 7 to establish in Japan to produce products with 1 8 polychlorinated biphenyls? 1 9 A: I don't recall. 2 0 Q: Well, what is MMK? 2 1 A: It was Monsanto's -- at one point in time 2 2 -- it was Monsanto's marketing organization, I 2 3 believe, in Japan, and at one point in time, then, 24 there became a joint venture with Mitsubishi, where 2 5 they did manufacture some products, but I don't Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014899 _________________________________________________ 32 1 recall what the products were. 2 Q: Well, as sales director for functional 3 fluids you had world-wide responsibility, correct? 4 A : Yes, I did. 5 Q: So you would have been concerned at this 6 point in time, in December of 1968, with attempts 7 outside of the United States to sell functional 8 fluid products, correct? 9 A : Yes . 10 Q: Okay. Your memorandum to Mr. Richard 11 continues, "We should carefully evaluate whether 12 there is a significant risk in selling Therminol in 13 food applications, and what guidelines should be 14 used". Do you recall carefully evaluating whether 15 there was a significant risk in selling Therminol in 16 food applications? 17 A : No, I don 1t. 18 Q: At any point or just at this time? 1 9 A: I just don't recall. 2 0 Q: Okay. Therminol, that was one of the 2 1 functional fluids that was in the heat transfer 22 area, correct? 2 3 A: Yes, it was. The name of the heat transfer 24 fluid was Therminol. 2 5 Q: Well, in 1968, as you testified earlier, Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014900 _________________________________________________ 33 1 when you took over this position, you had a little 2 bit of a learning curve, I think, you had to 3 probably surmount. I'm sort of paraphrasing your 4 testimony, but only to go into this next question. 5 What did you learn about the functional fluid 6 products that was particularly important for the 7 applications to which they were used? Do you 8 understand my question? 9 A: Not really. 10 Q: Okay. These products had a certain -- had 11 certain characteristics for the applications in 12 which they were used, correct? 1 3 A : Yes . 14 Q: Were they flammable? 15 A : No . 1 6 Q: Okay. That was one of the - 17 A: That was one of the major benefits. 1 8 Q: Major attributes that people would look for 1 9 when they purchased the product, correct? 2 0 A: That's correct. 2 1 Q: Were they stable? 2 2 A : Yes. 2 3 Q: And I might be getting out of my league 24 here, but - 2 5 A: I'm not far ahead of you. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014901 ___________________________________________ ;______ 34 1 Q: In a chemistry sense, if a product is 2 stable, it has what type of characteristics? What 3 do you consider a stable product? 4 A: One that will not -- this is -- again, this 5 is a real layman's. All right? One that will not 6 break down in the customer's operation, which is 7 where you're going to use it. 8 Q: So if you're using it as a lubricant - 9 A: You'd want it to be able to keep its 1 0 lubricant properties. 11 ' Q: So that means that, for example, it's 12 resistent to heat, correct, it will not break down 13 even if it's put in a high temperature setting? 14 A: Clearly -- I think the whole family was, 15 but I'm not sure of that. 16 Q: At this point I'm just talking about in 1 7 general . 1 8 A: All right. You'd expect it to perform in 19 the environment it was in. 2 0 Q: So one of the attributes, at least in some 2 1 of the functional fluids that you were able -- that 2 2 you took over the sales director responsibility for 2 3 was that these products, Therminol, for example, as 24 reflected in this letter, this memorandum, was 2 5 something that did not break down when heated at a Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014902 __________________________________________________35 1 high temperature? 2 A: It was used as a heat transfer medium, so it 3 was the heat, I guess is the way to -- 4 Q: Someone could heat it very -- to a high 5 t empe ra t ure ? 6 A: And then use that to heat something else. 7 Q: And then it would be processed through and 8 then heated again and processed through, right? 9 A : Right. 10 Q: So it was very stable in that respect, . 11 correct ? 12 A : Yes . 13 Q: Out of the functional fluids that you took 14 over the responsibility as sales director for there 1 5 are Aroclors, correct? 16 A : Not a11 . 17 Q: But there were Aroclors within them? 18 A : Yes. 1 9 Q: How would we define the term Aroclors so 2 0 that you, as a director in 1968, would know what 2 1 we're talking about? 2 2 A: It was chlorinated biphenyls. 2 3 Q: And different Aroclors, the numbers 24 associated with the Aroclors would relate to the 2 5 percentage of the Aroclor that was chlorine, right? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014903 _________________________________________________ 36 1 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: So Aroclor 1254 was 54 percent chlorine? 3 A : Yes. 4 Q: And Aroclor 1260 was 60 percent? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And then there were a lower percentage of 7 chlorines in different formulations, correct? 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 Q: And all of theAroclors arevery stable, 10 tended to be stable with respect to heat, correct? 11 A: I believe that, yes. 12 Q: Okay. And this was something that you would 13 have learned early on as sales director, right, 14 because these were the principal attributes that 15 salesmen would be able to discuss concerning these 16 products, correct, that they were stable and they 17 were not flammable? 18 A: Yes. And in some cases they had lubrication 1 9 capabilities. 2 0 Q: Okay. Is that known as lubricity? 2 1 A : Yes. 2 2 Q: I'm learning a little bit. Anything else? 2 3 A: Not that I remember. 2 4 Q: What I'm looking at -- let me phrase it a 2 5 little differently. Suppose I'm the customer, and Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014904 _________________________________________________ 37 1 you wanted to sell me a product in an industrial 2 use, what qualities of your products would you think 3 an industrial user would want to know? 4 MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the hypothetical 5 form of the question. But if you can respond to it, 6 you're welcome to. 7 A: Basically, what we've just discussed. 8 MR. ROEDER: Okay. Well, as sales director 9 for functional fluids, you would also have been 1 0 concerned, wouldn't you, sir, with any adverse 11 publicity that could be related to a product that 12 you wanted to sell, isn't that correct? 13 A: Well, say it again. 14 Q: Sure. As sales director, wouldn't you want 15 to be aware of any adverse publicity concerning one 1 6 of the products that you would sell? 1 7 A : Yes . 18 Q: Okay. So, even though the chlorinated 1 9 byphenyl manufactured by Keneka was not a product 2 0 Monsanto manufactured, Monsanto manufactured 2 1 chlorinated biphenyls that would have the same 22 characteristics as the one Keneka manufactured, 23 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: Okay. Now, you havein front of you your Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014905 _________________________________________________ 38 1 memorandum which is dated December 4, 1968, and then 2 Plaintiff's Exhibit 80, the memorandum from E.P. 3 Wheeler to you, dated December 23, 1968. Do you see 4 that document, sir? 5 A : I do. 6 Q: For the record, Exhibit 80 has production 7 numbers TRAN 6445 through TRAN 6447. Who is E.P. 8 Wheeler? 9 A: I don't know his title. He was in the 1 0 medical department. 11 Q: He was a medical doctor, wasn't he? 12 A: I think he was. I'm not positive, but I 13 believe he was. 14 Q: He was the guy you would call if you had 15 questions concerning the toxicity of the Aroclors, 16 right? 1 7 A : Right . 1 8 Q: Do you recall discussing at any point toward 1 9 the end of 1968 with Mr. Wheeler this incident in 2 0 Japan? 2 1 A : No , I don't. 22 Q: You do recall, don't you, having discussions 2 3 with Mr. Wheeler regarding the toxicity of the 24 Aroclor products? 2 5 A: Not specifically. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014906 _________________________________________________ 3 9 1 Q: Well, in general, you would have attended 2 meetings where Mr. Wheeler attended as well, isn't 3 that correct ? 4 A: But I don't know if they were about toxicity 5 or about -6 Q: About pollution? 7 A: Yes. Or about -- you know, about the 8 environmental -- I don't know which -- I'm not 9 sure which would be discussed. 1 0 Q: Okay. But in any event, Exhibit 80, that's 11 a document you reviewed yesterday as well? 12 A : No, it's not. 13 Q: It doesn't surprise you that Mr. Wheeler 14 would have sent back a response to a memo regarding 15 bran oil poisoning that you had written? 16 A: No, it does not. 1 7 Q : Okay . 1 8 A: Except for the fact that I didn't send it to 19 him . 2 0 Q : Wei1 - 2 1 A: But it does said my memo. 22 MR. CHAMBERS: Well, it refers to a memo of 23 December 9, 19 6 8, and that is the date of Exhibit 24 168, but the other, Exhibit 169, is dated December 2 5 4 , so - - Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014907 _________________________________________________ 40 1 MR. ROEDER: Fair enough. So, Plaintiff's 2 Exhibit 80 is in response to Exhibit 168. And if 3 you look at 168, sir, there's a handwritten notation 4 to Elmer Wheeler. Do you know whose handwriting 5 that is? 6 A : No . 7 Q: But apparently somebody at Monsanto sent 8 your memorandum to Mr. Wheeler, who responded to 9 y ou ? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: All fight. It would have been your 1 2 practice, wouldn't it, sir, to have reviewed a 13 memorandum that had been sent to you in response to 14 one of your memorandums? 15 A: To have reviewed it? 1 6 Q : Yes . 1 7 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. So, even while you may not have a 1 9 recollection of reviewing this particular 2 0 memorandum, it would have been your practice to have 2 1 reviewed it when it was sent to you or delivered to 2 2 you at Monsanto? 23 A: Yes. To review something, it depends upon 24 its value or interest. I would see it, there would 2 5 be nothing sent to me I would believe that I did not Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014908 41 1 look at. 2 Q: For the record, I was referring to . 3 Plaintiff's Exhibit 80, and that's what you were 4 referring to in connection with that answer, 5 correct ? 6 A : Yes, sir. 7 Q: Well, at or about this time, did you become 8 concerned that the new position that you had 9 obtained may, in fact, have some problems in 10 connection with the products you wanted to sell? 11 A: I don't recall. 12 Q: Okay. Do you recall, sir, in 1968 if the 13 functional fluids group met its sales goals? 14 A : I don't know. 15 Q: Okay. Well, more generally, do you recall 16 if in the first six months or so of your tenure as 17 sales director that things looked like they were 18 going -- I mean, you don't recall a calamity 1 9 hitting? 2 0 A: I don't recall any disasters. 2 1 Q: Okay. Now, again, sir, would you look at 2 2 Exhibit number 169. There's some handwriting on the 2 3 left-hand side of the first page, and the first page 24 also contains a copy of what appears to be a 2 5 newspaper article entitled "Bran oil poisoning, Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014909 _________________________________________________ 42 1 patient dies" . Looking at this document, sir, does 2 this refresh your recollection at all about this 3 Japanese incident? 4 A: No, it does not. 5 Q: All right. The left-hand side, the 6 handwriting, if I can point out, approximately 7 two-thirds down the page, there is handwriting 8 which, tell me if I read this the way you read this, 9 it says "I wonder if our Therminol labels are clear 10 enough on the point (for civil cases, that is". 11 A: That is the way I would read it. 12 Q: Whose handwriting is that? 13 A : I don't know. 14 Q: Do you recognize the signature at the 15 bot tom? 16 A: No. No, I do not. 17 Q: Do you recall having a concern as to whether 18 or not the labels on Therminol were clear enough for 1 9 civil litigation purposes? 2 0 A: I don't recall. 2 1 Q: Okay. But that would have been something 2 2 that you would have wanted to have known as sales 2 3 director, isn't that correct? 2 4 MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form, it 2 5 calls for speculation. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014910 _________________________________________________ 43 1 A: What's that mean? 2 MR. CHAMBERS: Forgive me. I'm just noting 3 an objection for the record. You're welcome to 4 respond to his question, if you're able to. 5 A: He can overrule it? 6 MR. ROEDER : At this point, unless he 7 instructs you not to answer, I think you have to 8 answer. 9 A : Okay . Fine . 1 0 MR. CHAMBERS: If you're able to. 11 A: I don't recall. 12 MR. ROEDER: Let me see if I can rephrase 13 the question. When there are issues with respect to 14 labeling, you would be consulted, for your products, 15 correct? 1 6 A: It would have been -- whether I would be 17 personally, I'm not sure. But it would have been 1 8 within the product function to be involved with 1 9 labeling decisions. 2 0 Q: And depending upon what the label says, some 2 1 customers may be more inclined or less inclined to 2 2 buy a product, correct? 2 3 A : Could be . 24 Q: So, it would have been -- is it fair to say 25 it would have been something that you would have Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014911 44 1 concerned yourself in? 2 A : Yes . 3 Q: If you thought it would have affected your 4 ability to sell the product? 5 A : Right. 6 Q: And is it something, also, that you would 7 have concerned yourself in if you had thought it 8 might have affected the profitability of your sales 9 of the product? 1 0 A: No, I don't think I would consider labeling 11 decisions from a profitability standpoint. . 12 Q: Okay. From a liability standpoint? 13 A: That would be logical. 14 Q: You would have considered it from that 15 s t andpoint ? 1 6 A: That would be logical. 1 7 Q: That's all I have for these documents right 1 8 now . 1 9 (Discussion off the record) . 2 0 ( Plaintiff's Exhibit 170. 2 1 MR. ROEDER: Take a moment, sir, to look at 2 2 Plaintiff's Exhibit 170, which bears production 2 3 numbers TRAN 57683 through 57684. And for the 24 record, it's a memorandum from W.R. Richard, dated 2 5 December 30, 1968. The subject is "Aroclor, Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014912 _________________________________________________ 4 5 1 wildlife" . And you are listed as a carbon copy 2 3 A: That's correct. Okay. 4 Q: Sir, this is a document that you would have 5 received in the ordinary course at Monsanto, isn't 6 that correct? 7 A: My name was there, yes. 8 Q: W.A. Kuhn, who is he? 9 A: He was the manufacturing representative to 1 0 the fluids group. 11 ` Q: What particular function did he serve in? 12 A: He served as liaison between the -- the 13 business groups did not have manufacturing under 14 them, so he was in the manufacturing organization 1 5 and served as liaison between the business group and 16 the manufacturing organization. 1 7 Q: So he was the guy that was to make sure the 1 8 product was made according to your specifications? 19 A: Well, so that the people at the plants would 2 0 be, too. But, yes, any changes, or if we wanted to 2 1 work on expansions, he might be very heavily 2 2 involved. 2 3 Q: Okay. Well, Mr. Richard's memorandum to Mr. 24 Kuhn indicates that Bill wanted to become more 2 5 familiar with the legal and political problems Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014913 _________________________________________________ 6 1 facing Aroclor with regard to pollution and the 2 accusations in the literature that chlorinated 3 biphenyls are poisoning and killing wildlife. 4 Having seen that, does this refresh your 5 recollection as to whether toward the end of 1968 6 there was increasing publicity concerning PCBs? 7 A: No, it does not. 8 Q: All right. On the second page of the 9 memorandum -- which is the first page of the 10 exhibit? 11 A : Yes . 12 Q: Mr. Richard says, "The third step is to 13 minimize exposure of Aroclor to reduce air and water 14 pollution, to restrict Aroclor to uses which can be 1 5 controlled. This is the only way I see to 16 survive". Did I read that correctly? 17 A: Yes, you did. 1 8 Q: Did you agree with that assessment? 1 9 A: I don't -- when? Then or now? 2 0 Q : Right. 2 1 A: Then? I have no idea. 2 2 Q: And looking at this document doesn't refresh 23 24 A: No, sir, it does not. 2 5 Q: Now, at this point, where were the Aroclors * -- --- Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014914 _________________________________________________ 47 1 manufactured, what plants at Monsanto? 2 A: The actual Aroclors were manufactured in 3 Anniston, Alabama and at the Krummrich plant across 4 the river here. 5 Q: On the Illinois side? 6 A : Yes . 7 Q: In Sauget? 8 A : Yes . 9 Q: Now, did you have concerns yourself at that 10 time as to whether or not the plants that were 11 manufacturing the Aroclors were emitting PCBs in 12 their manufacturing operations? 13 A: I don't recall. 14 Q: Mr. Richard writes, "I believe we should 15 make sure that our plants have minimum air or stream 1 6 pollution. I believe Anniston is vulnerable and 1 7 that off-gas HCL" -- that's hydrogen chloride? 1 8 A: Yes. 1 9 Q: -- "and Aroclor should be a hundred percent 2 0 controlled. Krummrich may also need help". Did I 2 1 read that correctly? 2 2 A: Yes, you did. 2 3 Q: Okay. You don't recall having any 24 discussions concerning those issues? 2 5 A : No, I don' t. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014915 _________________________________________________ 48 1 Q: Okay. Now, at the last paragraph Mr. 2 Richard writes, "We probably have six months to one 3 year while we fight out the DDT case. I want to use 4 this time to minimize our exposure. We'll need your 5 help in sending TSD targets". What are TSD targets? 6 A: TSD is the technical service group, the same 7 kind of group that I joined Monsanto in at the very 8 firstjob. 9 Q: Technical service - 1 0 A: At the plants. 11 Q: Okay. In other words, targets, for example, 1 2 to minimize pollution? 13 A: They could be on anything. 14 Q: All right. Well, do you recall -- does 15 reading this refresh your recollection that you were 1 6 in a window of opportunity to at least come up with 1 7 an alternative time -- you have a minimum amount of 1 8 time with which to deal with this problem? 1 9 A: I don't recall. 2 0 Q: Okay'. You don't recall that being a 2 1 concern? 2 2 A : No . 2 3 Q: Now, I think you said the first time you 24 recall there being an issue with respect to PCBs was 2 5 the San Francisco Chronicle article? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014916 _________________________________________________ 49 1 MR. CHAMBERS: Let me object to the form, I 2 think that mischaracterizes the testimony, that he 3 became aware that there was an issue. . 4 MR. ROEDER : Well, let me rephrase it. The 5 first time you became aware that the PCBs could be 6 an environmental issue was on learning of the 7 publication of the San Francisco Chronicle article? 8 A: The first time as I sit here today that I 9 recall being aware was the San Francisco Chronicle 1 0 article. 11 Q: Did you read that article? 12 A: I read it. 13 Q: Okay. Was it sent to you promptly upon its 14 publication? 1 5 A: I don't have any idea. 16 Q: You don't recall whether someone quickly 1 7 sent it in so that everyone could see it or mailed 1 8 it in? 1 9 A: No, I don't know what happened. 2 0 Q: What do you recall about the article? 2 1 A: Well, all I recall is that they had found 22 that PCBs were in the environment and that the fish 23 were eating them and peregrine falcons were eating 24 the fish and getting thin eggshells and there was 2 5 concern about extinction of the peregrine falcon. Gore & Perry Reporting Co, St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014917 _________________________________________________ 50 1 Q: So that what the researcher found is that 2 the eggshells were so thin that the eggs were not 3 hatching, correct? 4 A : That 1 s right. 5 MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. 6 MR. ROEDER : And by extension, then, was 7 there not a concern that literally higher up the 8 food chain PCBs may appear? 9 A: I don't recall. 10 Q : Okay. 11 A: As I sit here, to me, the emphasis was this 12 was the first real knowledge to me that they were in 13 the environment and they were not degrading. 14 Q: Did Mr. Wheeler at any time in this time 15 frame -- well, let's see if we can lay a foundation 16 for the time frame. When you read the San Francisco 17 Chronicle article, do you recall when you read it? 1 8 A: No , I don' t. 1 9 Q: And you don't recall if you read it - 2 0 would you have read it around the time it was 2 1 published, give or take a month or two? 22 MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form, it's 2 3 been asked and answered. He said he didn't recall 24 when he read it. 2 5 MR. ROEDER: I'm just trying to see if - Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014918 _________________________________________________ 51 1 MR. CHAMBERS: Fair enough. Go ahead. 2 A: It would be logical, yes, I would have read 3 it within a month. 4 Q: It's your expectation that within a 5 reasonable amount of period after its publication it 6 would have been brought to your attention because of 7 its importance, correct? 8 A : Yes. 9 Q: Okay. At or about this time do you recall 10 Mr. Wheeler ever suggesting to you that he had . 11 thought that the research being done on -- let me 12 rephrase the question. At or about this time did 13 Mr. Wheeler tell you that he thought the research 14 that had suggested that PCB products persisted in 15 the environment was valid? 16 A: Not that I recall. 17 Q: Would you recall that if he had said that? 18 A : No . 1 9 ( Plaintiff's Exhibit 171 2 0 marked for identification). 2 1 MR. ROEDER: The court reporter has handed 22 you Plaintiff's Exhibit 171. If you'll take a 2 3 moment to review that, sir, and I'll identify it for 24 the record. Exhibit 171 is a memorandum from D. A. 25 Olson to Kazuo Hoshino, dated January 14, 1969. And Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014919 _________________________________________________ 52 1 it has a production number of TRAN 58450. 2 A: I've read it. 3 Q: Okay. Is this a document you looked at in 4 preparation for your testimony today? 5 A : Yes. 6 Q: Who is Kazuo Hoshino? 7 A : I don' t know. 8 Q: MMK, though, was the Monsanto sales 9 organization in Tokyo? 10 A : Yes . 11 Q: And this document relates to bran oil 12 poisoning, correct? 13 A : Yes . 14 Q: Okay. The memorandum from Mr. Wheeler to 15 you was the memorandum that's referenced in Exhibit 1 6 171, I'm talking about Plaintiff's Exhibit 80, isn't 1 7 that correct ? 18 A: Without having it attached, I would -- it 1 9 is logical it would be, but I don't know for sure 2 0 that it was. 2 1 Q: Well, the conclusion that there are few 2 2 regulations and little information on human toxicity 2 3 is consistent with what Mr. Wheeler told you in his 24 memorandum which is Plaintiff's Exhibit 80, correct? 2 5 A: Yes, it is. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014920 53 1 Q: And also the statement that you have from 2 Mr. Hoshino that there's little justification for 3 the expense of toxicity testing which would be 4 required; that was consistent with what Mr. Wheeler 5 had written to you in his memorandum, correct? 6 A; Yes, it is. 7 Q: So, those factors make you believe that this 8 could, indeed, be the memorandum enclosed to Mr. 9 Hoshino ? 10 A : Yes . 11 Q: Your memorandum to Mr. Hoshino concludes 12 that, "We, like you, are vitally concerned that no 13 governmental action in Japan be taken which would be 14 harmful to Aroclor". Was that your position in 15 1969 ? 16 A: I just don't remember. 1 7 Q: Well, this would be a memorandum you 1 8 prepared? 1 9 A: Yes. 2 0 Q: You wouldn't have written it if you thought 2 1 it were incorrect? 2 2 A: And I did say that. 2 3 Q: Okay. And it's also true that you had hoped 24 that the information you had enclosed would 2 5 alleviate the concern that governmental action be Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014921 _________________________________________________ 54 1 taken in Japan that would be harmful to Aroclor, 2 isn't that correct? 3 A: That is what I wrote. 4 Q: Did Japan ultimately ban Aroclors? 5 A : I don 1 t know. 6 Q: Would it surprise you if I suggested that 7 they did? 8 MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. Go 9 ahead and answer. 10 A: Would it surprise me? 11 MR. ROEDER: Yes. ' 1 2 A : No . 13 Q: Okay. Let's move on. 14 A: Did they? 1 5 Q : They did. 16 A : Okay. 17 Q: I'll tell you on the record, Mr. Benignus 18 has testified that they did, and would you rely on 19 Mr. Benignus' testimony on that subject? 2 0 A : Yes , I would . 2 1 ( Plaintiff's Exhibit 172 2 2 marked for identification) . 2 3 MR. ROEDER: Take a moment to review exhibit 24 172, sir. 2 5 A : Okay . Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014922 _________________________________________________ 55 1 Q: For the record, Exhibit 172 is a memorandum 2 from W.R. Richard to E. Wheeler. It has the 3 production number TRAN 58343 through TRAN 58345. 4 You are listed as a recipient on this memorandum, 5 sir? 6 A: Yes, I was. 7 Q: The memorandum is entitled "Aroclor wildlife 8 Accusations", correct? 9 A: Yes, it is. 1 0 Q: And it relates a recent paper in the . 11 periodical Nature from Professor Risebrough, right? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: In it, as recounted by Mr. Richard to Dr. 14 Wheeler, Dr. Richard indicates that Risebrough is 1 5 suggesting that chlorinated biphenyls is a toxic 1 6 substance endangering man himself, do you see that? 1 7 A: Yes, I do. 18 Q: Do you recall considering that issue when 1 9 you received this memorandum? 2 0 A: No, I don't. I don't recall receiving the 2 1 memorandum. 2 2 Q: But you would have received it in the 23 ordinary course of Monsanto, correct? 24 A: Yes. 2 5 Q: You have no reason to believe you didn't? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014923 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 56 A : No . Q: In or about this time in March 1969, was it your view that the issue relating to environmental contamination of PCBs was becoming an important issue regarding Aroclors? A: I can't put it in a time frame. Q: At some point it did, though? A : Yes . Q: On the second page of the memorandum, sir Dr. Richard writes, "Under identification and control of exposure we will be able to identify and analyze residues as well or better than anyone in the world". Do you see that? A : I do. Q: That was correct, wasn't it? A : I don't know. Q: Well, Monsanto was the leading manufacturer of PCBs in the world at this point, wasn't it? A: I believe Monsanto was the largest manufacturer. Q: Certainly, the only manufacturer of PCBs in the United States? A : Right. Q: And the leading manufacturer world-wide? A: I think the largest, yes. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014924 57 1 Q: And it's also fair to say, isn't it, sir, 2 that as of this date in 1969 Monsanto knew as much 3 about PCBs collectively, Mr. Richard, Mr. Wheeler, 4 as anyone else? 5 A: I've got no way to judge that. 6 Q: Well, wouldn't you agree with me that you 7 had more experience in producing Aroclors as a 8 corporate entity than any other corporate entity? 9 MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. 1 0 A: Monsanto had produced more than anybody, 11 yes. 12 MR. ROEDER: And originally PCBs were 13 developed by Swan Chemical which Monsanto purchased, 14 correct? 15 A: They did purchase Swan, and -- I don't 16 recall it, but I bow to your statement, yes. 1 7 Q: All right. And the Anniston plant was the 1 8 originally Swan Chemical plant, right? Do you know? 1 9 A: I don't know. 2 0 Q: Okay. Well, do you recall disagreeing with 2 1 Mr. Richard's statement? 2 2 A: I don't recall the memo. 2 3 Q: All right. Now, let's move on further down 24 this memorandum. On page 2 Dr. Richard writes, 2 5 "Since Risebrough's paper in Nature, December 1968, Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014925 _________________________________________________ 58 1 has just been published, it is timely, perhaps 2 imperative that this paper and its implications be 3 discussed with certain customers. This is a rough 4 one because it could mean loss of business on empty 5 and false claims by Risebrough" . Did I read that 6 correctly? 7 A: Yes, you did. 8 Q: Did you discuss the paper and its 9 implications on or about this time with customers? 10 A: I have no recollection of that, of doing it _ 11 or not doing it. I have no recollection, period. 12 Q: Well, at some point you did discuss it with 13 certain customers, correct, at least the 14 implications of the PCB contamination in the 15 environment, correct? 16 A: Our organization did, yes. 1 7 Q: And you personally, you at least were in 18 meetings where it was discussed with customers, 1 9 weren't you? 2 0 A: I'm not sure. The only one that I can even 2 1 think of was a meeting with GE, and I'm not sure 22 that I was there. 2 3 Q: Well, we'll get to that. 24 A: If I was, fine. I just don't know. 2 5 Q: Okay. You certainly don't recall making a Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014926 _________________________________________________ 59 1 decision as of this date, the receipt of this 2 memorandum, that it was imperative to discuss the 3 implications of Dr. Risebrough1s memorandum with 4 certain customers? 5 A : I don 1 t recall. 6 Q: Okay. Well, looking at this document right 7 now, you would agree with the statement that Dr. 8 Richard has, that if Risebrough were wrong and if 9 the claims were false, you would have risked losing 1 0 business by discussing these issues with customers, 11 isn't that correct? 12 MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. 13 A: I don't quite know how to answer. Say it 14 again. 15 MR. ROEDER : Sure. I'll try it again. 1 6 A : Thank you. 1 7 Q: Dr. Richard writes, after he says it's 18 imperative that the implications of Dr. Risebrough's 1 9 papers be discussed with certain customers, that 2 0 "This is a rough one, because it could mean loss of 2 1 business on empty and false claims by Risebrough". 2 2 Okay. Let's use that as a reference for the 2 3 question. Okay? 24 A : Okay. 2 5 Q: If, in fact, the claims by Risebrough were Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014927 _________________________________________________ 60 1 empty and false, you would agree with Dr. Richard 2 here, wouldn't you, that it could be serious and a 3 rough issue to discuss with customers, who might 4 then decide not to buy your product? 5 A: Well, read it again, I don't know where - 6 I'm trying to be good. 7 Q: I'm trying to be good, too. Maybe I could 8 do it better. 9 A : Okay. 10 Q: I thought I did it okay, but you're 11 indicating difficulty with the question, so let me 12 give it another try. I want you to assume that the 13 claims Risebrough made were empty and falls. 14 A : Okay. 1 5 Q: I don't think that's what happened, but just 1 6 for the purpose of this question assume that. 1 7 A : Al1 right . 1 8 Q: If that were true and the claims that he had 1 9 regarding the falcons and the pollution weren't 2 0 true, wouldn't it have risked losing business on 2 1 Monsanto's part if they were to raise these issues 2 2 with customers? 2 3 A: It could be either way. It could be either 24 way. Some customers, you could end up with a much 2 5 closer relationship because you worked with them Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014928 _________________________________________________ 61 1 early, you know, and sell them something else. So 2 there are some, though, that, yes, you could risk 3 it, that they would prematurely take the product 4 out . 5 Q: You certainly don't recall sending out 6 letters to customers with respect to the Nature 7 article in 1968, correct? 8 A: In 1969? 9 Q : 19 6 9. 10 A: No, I do not. 11 Q: And you don't recall discussing this, in any 12 event, with any customers except possibly GE? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: Let's go down toward the bottom of that 1 5 page. It says "Well prepareddiscussions with Ind. 16 Bio-Test, Monsanto biochemists", and then there's a 17 blank, "must take place now". This is a question 1 8 for you, Mr. Chambers. Is there a redaction? 19 MR. CHAMBERS: I don't know. 2 0 MR. ROEDER: Okay. If I count correctly, it 2 1 would appear that the word legal is redacted, just 2 2 based upon the number of letters that would have 23 otherwise been typed there. Can you confirm whether 2 4 something has been redacted or not redacted with 2 5 respect to that document? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014929 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 62 1 MR. CHAMBERS: I cannot confirm that today. 2 MR. ROEDER: Not today, but at some point. 3 I want to make that request. 4 MR. CHAMBERS: Sure. I'm surprised there's 5 not some other unredacted copies floating around, 6 given all the paper that's out there. 1 MR. ROEDER: If there is, I haven't found 8 it. If there is an unredacted copy, if you can 9 direct me to it, that would be fine. But it appears 10 as though something is redacted. My guess is the 11 word legal is redacted. 1 2 MR. CHAMBERS: I don't know if your guess is 13 right. I don't know, either, if your guess is 14 wrong. Maybe there's something else that - 15 MR. ROEDER: I don't know what other 16 department we'd be talking about. Do you recall 1 7 engaging in discussions with the medical and legal 18 departments at or about that time regarding the 1 9 environmental pollution question as it related to 2 0 PCBs ? 21 22 A: I would have been in meetings and discussions throughout the whole period, but I don't 2 3 recall any of them specifically or what the subjects 24 were . 2 5 Q: Okay. Well, these meetings or discussions Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014930 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 63 1 that you would have participated in, did they happen 2 on any regularly scheduled basis? 3 A: No. I think they would tend to be around a 4 subject, whenever that subject -- 5 Q: So after the next negative publicity issue 6 there would be a meeting, for example? 7 A: There could. I don't know what happened, 8 but there could, yes. 9 Q: At the end of the memorandum Mr. Richard 1 0 asks for comments, and just so my record is clear, 11 you don't recall giving him any comments with 1 2 respect to this memorandum, do you? 13 A: No , I do not. 14 MR. ROEDER: We've been going about an hour 15 and twenty minutes, hour and a half, or something 16 like that, time for a break? 1 7 MR. CHAMBERS: Very good. 1 8 (Recess) . 1 9 ( Plaintiff's Exhibit 173 2 0 marked for identification). 21 22 MR. ROEDER: For the record, sir, you've been handed Exhibit 173, which is a memorandum from 2 3 Dr. Richard, again, to file, relating to Aroclor 24 analysis in pesticide residues, visit to Professor 25 G. Widmark, U of Stockholm in May of 1969. And this Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014931 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 64 is, I presume, a copy that would have been sent to you ? A: I presume so, yes. Q: It looks as though there's anarrow s t amp - A: It looks like it's through mine. This would have been my copy. Q: That would indicate this would be the one sent to you? A: Yes. QAnd is this a document that you looked at in preparation for your testimony yesterday? A : I believe so. Q: Okay. Would you take a moment to review it . A : Okay. Q: Now, this is a document, sir, a memorandum that Dr. Richard prepared based upon his visit to Professor Widmark at the University of Stockholm May 5, 1969; that's what it reports, isn't that correct? A: Yes, it does . Q: What I'm not sure, and perhaps you can also confirm that, Mr. Chambers, is there any redaction on this as well? MR. CHAMBERS: Again, I can't confirm that Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014932 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 65 1 with you today. I just don't know. 2 MR. ROEDER : I'd ask if you could. 3 MR. CHAMBERS: I assume you're referring to 4 that portion right below the title block and so 5 forth? 6 MR. ROEDER: Right. It looks like there's a 7 large space. Maybe that's just what it is, but I 8 can't tell. Do you recall reviewing or discussing 9 with Dr. Richard the trip that he had with Professor 1 0 Widmark in Stockholm? 11 A : No , I do not. 12 Q: Okay. The second page indicates Keller and 13 Wheeler should have a more complete report. We know 14 who Wheeler is. Who is Keller? 15 A: I'm not positive, but he could have been a 16 -- I don't know who he is. I don't know who he 17 i s . 1 8 Q: Is it your best understanding that he was 1 9 someone who worked with Dr. Wheeler? 2 0 A: I really don't know who it is. 2 1 Q: Well, do you have a recollection that people 22 from Monsanto went to visit Professor Widmark to 2 3 discuss his research? 24 A : Yes. 2 5 Q: And did you participate in discussions Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014933 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 66 1 concerning these visits? 2 A: I don't know. 3 Q: Well, periodically, though, when you did 4 have discussions concerning PCB related issues, 5 environmental issues, people who would attend these 6 meetings would bring out new information that they 7 had acquired, wouldn't that be fair to say? 8 A: It would be logical. 9 Q: Right. Now, can you decipher something for 10 me with your chemical engineering background? . 11 Toward the end of the - 12 A: Keller might be a person who was in the 13 analytical laboratory. 14 Q: Okay. You say that based upon the - 15 A: Yes, I kind of halfway remember it that 1 6 way. That could be who that is. 1 7 Q: Would he report to Dr. Wheeler or would his 18 function be separate? 1 9 A: No, his function would be separate. Pardon 2 0 me . Go ahead. 2 1 Q: There is an R. Keller who's listed as a 2 2 recipient of this memorandum. 23 A: Right. 24 Q: Toward the end of the memorandum on the 2 5 second page of the document, Dr. Richard writes, "We Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014934 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 6 7 1 could also expect that CL3", and what's that, a zero 2 with a line through it? 3 A: It's a chemical symbol. 4 Q: Is that a symbol for the ring? 5 A: It might be, yes. 6 Q: "Might go undetected based upon Widmark 1 s 7 evidence; and apparently chlorinated paraffin and 8 chlorinated terphenyl have so far escaped detection 9 and are absent in the tissues of birds or fish". Do 1 0 you recall any discussion of this issue? 11 A: No , I don 1t. 12 Q: How about right before that in the paragraph 13 it talks about Aroclor 1242 which could have been 14 destroyed by the HN03/H2S04. That's sulfuric 15 treatment and what is HNO, is that nitric acid? 16 A : Yes . 1 7 Q: This would be a treatment that Widmark may 1 8 have been using as part of his research concerning 19 this that could have been destroying Aroclor 1242 2 0 before his analysis, is that what this says? 2 1 A: That's what this says. 22 Q: So, in fact, Aroclor 1242 may, in fact, be 23 persisting, but in the particular research that 24 Doctor -- the procedures that Dr. Widmark was 2 5 employing may, in fact, have been destroying what Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014935 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 68 1 otherwise would have been there; that's the 2 suggestion, correct? 3 A: I believe that's what this says. 4 Q: Okay. Again, you don't -- I take it you do 5 not have a specific recollection of discussing this 6 memorandum? 7 A; No, I don't. 8 Q: Or of discussing with anyone anything 9 further than what you testified regarding visits 10 with Dr. Widmark? 11 A : No . 12 Q: But is it also fair to say, though, sir, 13 that this is a document you would have had access 14 to; in fact, did receive? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And, in fact, that's true of everything 17 we've got so far that is addressed to you, it's a 1 8 document that you had received at Monsanto on or 1 9 about the time that the document was prepared? 2 0 A: Yes. 2 1 ( Plaintiff's Exhibit 174 22 marked for identification). 2 3 MR. ROEDER: Exhibit 174, sir, has been 24 handed to you, and for the record is a letter dated 2 5 November 17, 1969 to Mr. Fred Comar, I believe, Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014936 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 69 1 Chief Mteallurgist, Chevrolet Motor Division, and 2 it's from N.T. Johnson and you're listed as a carbon 3 copy recipient. 4 A : Yes. 5 Q: Did you review this document in preparation 6 for your testimony? 7 A : Yes. 8 Q: Who is N.T. Johnson? 9 A: Norm Johnson. 1 0 Q: He was the marketing manager? 11 A: Yes, at that time. 12 Q: He reported to you? 13 A : Yes . 14 Q: Did he report to you directly? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And the date on the document, I don't know 1 7 if I got it in the record, but it's November 17, 18 1969. Would you have reviewed a letter like this 1 9 prior to the time it was sent out? 2 0 A: That's very doubtful. 21 22 Q: This is a document that discusses chlorinated biphenyls and whether they were or were 2 3 not highly toxic to aquatic life, correct? 24 A: Yes. 2 5 Q: As of November 17, 1969, was Mr. Johnson Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014937 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 70 1 authorized to send out correspondence like this? 2 A: I don't know what -- I don't know what 3 "like this" is. 4 Q: Correspondence that discusses whether or not 5 products are or are not highly toxic to aquatic 6 life? 7 A: It would be logical for him to be writing to 8 customers, which is what this is. 9 Q: Chevrolet Motor Division was a large 10 customer of Monsanto's industrial fluids at that 11 time, wasn't it? 12 A: It was a customer. I don't know its size. 13 Q: Well, General Motors was certainly one of 14 the largest customers of the industrial fluids 15 products, isn't that correct? 1 6 A: I remember Ford more. 17 Q: You remember Ford more? 1 8 A : Yes . 1 9 Q: But would this be an extraordinary letter, 2 0 in your view? 21 MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form, vague. 2 2 A: Extraordinary that he would be writing the 2 3 customer, extraordinary in what it says or - 24 MR. ROEDER: Let me rephrase the question. 2 5 A: The subject or - Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014938 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 71 1 Q: Let me rephrase the question, in light of 2 your comments. This is apparently in response to a 3 letter from Chevrolet regarding whether or not the 4 products that it purchases from Monsanto have 5 chlorinated biphenyls, correct? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And as of November 1969 do you remember any 8 other customers contacting Monsanto and asking 9 questions with respect to the chlorinated biphenyl 1 0 nature of the products that they were buying from 11 Monsanto which were part of your division? . 12 A: Not that I recall. I don't recall. 13 Q: Okay. If it were happening a lot, then 14 you'd say this is something that was just happening 15 and you would have a recollection of it happening, 16 is that fair to say? 1 7 MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. 1 8 A : I don't know. 19 MR. ROEDER: But you're listed as a carbon 2 0 copy; did Mr. Johnson normally carbon you on 21 correspondence that he had with customers? 22 A: Not all. But certainly some. I don't 23 know. I can't -- 24 Q: You could expect that he would list you - 25 A: If it was something he wanted me to see, he Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014939 72 1 would. 2 Q: Or if it dealt with an important customer 3 you'd want to see it, right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: R.W. Ehrhardt, who is that? 6 A: He was in New York, and he was -- he was 7 not part of our -- he was sort of a sales 8 correspondent, I believe, in the New York office. 9 Q: With respect to General Motors? 10 A: I don't recall. 11 Q: How about G.R. Graham? 1 2 A: Randy Graham was a sales representative. 13 Q: For General Motors? 14 A: In that area. 1 5 Q : Okay. 16 A: I believe he probably would be. 1 7 Q: Who is Jack Garrett, the other carbon copy 18 recipient ? 1 9 A: I don't remember. 2 0 ( Plaintiff's Exhibit 175 21 marked for identification). 2 2 MR. ROEDER: Exhibit 175 is another letter 2 3 written to General Motors Division, dated November 24 20, 1969 from Mr. Johnson. It has production number 2 5 TNGS 7484. Just so the record is clear, Exhibit 174 Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014940 73 1 has production number TNGS 7483. On this one, sir, 2 there is a at the top, is there not, "PCB 3 customers"? 4 A: Yes, it does say that. 5 Q: Is this another document you looked at 6 yesterday? 7 A : Yes. 8 Q: Now, Pontiac Motor Division is a division of 9 the same company as the Chevrolet Motor Division, 1 0 they're both part of General Motors? 11 A: Yes. 1 2 Q: This is only three days after the other 13 letter was sent? 14 A : Correct . 1 5 Q: Was Mr. Johnson authorized to write this 1 6 letter? 1 7 A: I don't know how to -- there is not an 1 8 issue of -- I mean, I didn't have you're authorized 1 9 to do this or you're authorized to do that. The 2 0 fact that he would write the customer I find very 21 logical. 2 2 Q: Okay. Let me ask the question this way, did 2 3 you have a concern as of November 1969 that 24 communications to major customers relating to the 2 5 polychlorinated biphenyl nature of the products only Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014941 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 74 come out of St. Louis? A: I don't recall. Q: Do you recall having a concern that St. Louis control the precise information with respect to PCBs in the Monsanto products that were given to its customers at or about this time? A: I can't put a time frame on it. Okay? But I do recall in general that -- of the feeling that it is better for the information to come from St. Louis where we would be sure that it would be accurate than to have all kinds of people giving whatever opinions they want to give. Q: Okay. Now, we've looked at a few of these memoranda regarding the meeting in Stockholm, Dr. Richard's memorandum regarding the press, the Nature article by Dr. Risebrough; what I want to know, sir, is, at or about this time in November 1969 it's fair to say, isn't it, that the PCB contamination issue was not decreasing, if anything, it was just becoming a bigger issue? A: Yes, that's fair to say. Q: Okay. So there was no letup, no one said PCBs are clear, you guys go ahead? A : No . Q: In 1969 did you form a belief yourself that Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014942 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 75 the PCB environmental issue was a very significant issue with respect to the potential sales of the products under your responsibility? A: Again, at some point in time I reached a conclusion that they were, indeed, persisting in the environment and we needed to be very careful to let our customers know exactly what was happening. I don't know that I would put it just only in the vein of sales, which I thought your question did. Q: So at some point in time you reached a conclusion that perhaps what Dr. Risebrough was writing was valid, for example, at least -A : Yes . let me rephrase the question. At least it wasn't a group Q: Now, is it fair to say that there was a coof nwceilrdn-eeyaerdly eonnv, irobynmeaernlytaloisntsI'mwhorewfeerreenjcuisntg back tsouwgagredsteinagrlyin '6a9,Chliactkeen '6L8i,ttltehafta, sihniofnactht,atththise msakyy bise sgooirnt goftoanfaelnl,virtohnismeisntaalirsetaltyspeerioisussuei,sspueer,haps not to be taken seriously, but people may not understand the true uses of PCBs? A: I just don't recall. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014943 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 76 1 Q: You don't recall? 2 A : No . 3 Q: Do you recall anyone else discussing that 4 concept, that early on as the stories began to 5 percolate in the press that these are just a bunch 6 of sort of liberal environmentalists that we've got 7 to deal with? 8 A: I don't recall. 9 Q: Mr. Benignus never said anything like that? 10 A: I don't recall. 11 Q: I was was just trying to see if that 12 refreshed your recollection. So, by the end of 13 196 9, is it fair to say that you had at least formed 14 that belief, that these materials were persisting in 15 the environment? 1 S MR. CHAMBERS: Objection. Strike my 1 7 obj ection. 1 8 A: At some point in time, yes, I arrived in my 1 9 own mind at the conclusion that the higher Aroclors 2 0 were persisting in the environment. 2 1 Q: Higher Aroclors being what? 2 2 A: 54 and 60. 2 3 Q: Okay. Aroclor1254 and Aroclor 1260? 24 A : Yes. 25 Q: What did you do internally with respect to Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014944 1 your belief? Did you act upon it internally? 2 A: I don't know. 3 Q: Was there a presentation made at any point, 4 for example, to the corporate management committee 5 or the corporate -- am I saying it correctly, any 6 7 A: CMC. 8 Q: Yes. Anybody internally concerning looking 9 for direction as to how we proceed strategically in 1 0 the future with respect to these materials that were 11 persisting in the environment? 12 A: I have no recollection, but I've read some 13 documents that imply that there was some -- 14 Q: Did you ever make a presentation at the 15 corporate management committee? 1 6 A : No . 1 7 Q: Who would have made that presentation? 18 Would it be Mr. Bergen? 1 9 A: Probably John Mason. 20 Q: It would be the man who reported to Mr. 21 Minckler? 2 2 A : Yes . 2 3 Q: Did you ever discuss it with Mr. Mason? 24 A: I don't recall. I wrote him once, a status 2 5 report on certain things . .Gore & Perry Reporting Co St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014945 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 78 1 Q: So that he could use it in preparation - 2 A: For something. Again, I -- 3 Q: All right. Well, perhaps as we go through, 4 it will assist you. 5 Q: So, as of November 1969, as you reviewed 6 Plaintiff's Exhibit 174 and 175, you don't recall 7 disagreeing with anything Mr. Johnson had written to 8 the customers, do you? 9 A: I don't recall the letters. 1 0 Q: But as you look at them now, did you 11 disagree with anything that was in those letters? 12 A: Do I now? I don't recall what I did at that 1 3 t ime . 14 Q: Well, do you now? 15 A: Now I know that some of the lower Aroclors 1 6 also were persistent, so that the inference on 312 17 is probably not correct. 1 8 Q: So the record is clear, Plaintiff's Exhibit 1 9 175 contains a statement which says, "Pydraul 312 2 0 does contain chlorinated biphenyl, however, we have 21 no evidence that the particular chlorinated 22 biphenyls used in Pydraul 312 are highly toxic to 2 3 aquatic life" . Your testimony is you now know that 24 the chlorinated biphenyls used in Pydraul 312 do 25 persist? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014946 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 79 A : YYeess.. Q: And did you take issue with -- do you now take issue with any other statement in Plaintiff's Exhibit 175? A: I believe that in -- in 175, no. I don't take any issue with it. Q: How about 174? A: Pydraul A-200, I believe, also -- I don't remember its exact makeup, but I believe that it had Aroclors that also were persistent, so today I would have to say that that's probably -- that that's incorrect. Q: Okay. Knowing what you know now, you wouldn't have let the letters go out this way? A: Of course not. MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. A: Of course not. MR. ROEDER: And that's because it was important to give customers as much information as you possessed? A: That's because it was incorrect. Q: Right. But you at least wanted to make sure that you kept the customers aware of what you knew regarding the potential environmental issues relating to the use of PCBs, correct? ,Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014947 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 80 1 A: Well, it's a whole lot of gray in there. I 2 would want the customers to know anything that would 3 -- that they would feel would be important to 4 them. There might be a lot of things that Monsanto 5 has worked on and found that don't necessarily go to 6 the customer, they don't want to know everything 7 that we're doing. But I think that I want to be 8 certain that we would have them want to be aware of 9 the major facts as they occurred. 10 Q: And so I understood, your answer to the . 11 question said there is a lot of gray in there? 12 A: Well, I don't know how -- 13 Q: Tell you what, I'll just have him read back 14 the answer. 15 A: What I was saying was in response to your 16 quest ion. 1 7 (The requested portion of the 1 8 record read by the reporter) . 1 9 MR. ROEDER : Did he get it down right? 20 A: Yes. I thought I heard you say that we 2 1 would want them to be aware of all the information 2 2 of -- I don't know that I heard that. 2 3 Q: Okay. You don't feel you need to change the 24 answer in any way? 2 5 A : No . Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014948 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 81 1 Q: Now, let me show you what has previously 2 been marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 66. 3 (Discussion off the record). 4 A : Okay. 5 Q: For the record, Exhibit 66 is a memorandum 6 from D.A. Olson to H.S. Bergen, and it has Bates 7 number TNGS 8700 to TNGS 8701. It's dated December 8 11, 1969. Is this a document you looked at in 9 preparation for your testimony yesterday, sir? 1 0 A: Yes, I did. 11 Q: Your memorandum to Mr. Bergen begins with 12 the statement that, "Our action plan for 13 discontinuing sale of Aroclors 1254 and 1260 is as 14 follows". Did I read that correctly? 15 A: Yes, you did. 1 6 Q: So, is it fair to say that there had been a 1 7 decision made by December 11, 1969 to discontinue 18 the sale of Aroclors 1254 and 1260? 1 9 A: I don't know. I don't know that that's true. 2 0 Q : Okay . 21 A: I don't recall that that's true. 22 Q: Would you have prepared an action plan for 2 3 discontinuing the sale of a product for which a 2 4 decision had not been made to discontinue it? 2 5 A: Sure, you could. ...... ..... - ... ----------- Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014949 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 82 1 Q: Did Mr. Bergen ask you to prepare this plan? 2 A: I don't remember. 3 Q: Do you recall discussions toward the end of 4 1969 about terminating or discontinuing the sale of 5 Aroclors 1254 and 1260? 6 A: I don't recall the timing, no. 7 Q: You recall that decision was made at some 8 point, right ? 9 A : Right. 10 Q: And this is your signature on the second 11 page, isn't it? 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: With respect to the industrial uses on page 14 3, the strategy was, was it not, of two basic 1 5 approaches; A, to reformulate the Pydraul products 1 6 with terphenyls and, B, to develop a straight 1 7 phosphate ester? 1 8 A: Yes. 1 9 Q: Were those strategies implemented? 2 0 A: I don't know that the phosphate esters ever 21 worked out. I just don't know. I don't remember. 2 2 Certainly not while I was there, anyway. 2 3 Q: How about the terphenyls? 2 4 A: There were the pydrauls were -- some of 2 5 them were reformulated with terphenyls while I was Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014950 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 83 there. Q: As you look at this memorandum, do you disagree with anything that was written in the memorandum ? A: Oh, man - MR. CHAMBERS: Take whatever time you need. A: Okay. Well, 25 years later I would not really consider selling products outside the U.S. Q: So, the suggestion in your memorandum is that sales, if I can quote it, "outside of the U.S. . posed a different situation". Is that, sir, because there might be competitors outside the U.S. who would not refuse to sell 1254 and 1260? A: I think that was the premise. What I said in here that I now don't really agree with is that we may desire to continue manufacture at least at one location to support export sales. Q: Okay. Why would you no longer agree with that? A: I hate to see the cigarette companies do it. It's the same principle, if it's not good here Q: Why should you sell it there? A : Ye s , s i r . Q: Was your suggestion implemented with respect Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014951 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 84 to selling outside of the United States? A: I have no idea. Q: Now, with respect to the dielectrics, we really haven't discussed that much today in your testimony. A: I forgot to mention the properties of the p roduc t s . Q: Well, they were of particular use, Monsanto believed, for capacitors and transformers, correct? A : Yes. Q: General Electric was the largest user, largest customer, correct? A: I believe that. Q: In general, do you recall what percentage of all of the functional fluids products General Electric comprised? A : No, I don't . Q: But it was far and away the biggest? A: It was the biggest. Q: Now, you earlier testified that you thought that you met with General Electric and discussed the concerns with respect to PCBs; do you recall that testimony? A: I think what I said was that I believe there was a meeting with GE on it, but I don't remember Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014952 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 85 for sure whether I was there or not. Q: Before we go into that, let me just follow up on more foundational testimony. Showing you what's been marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 85, and it is a document which bears production number TRAN 2 1762 to 21771. And I'll point out, I think your name is listed there, then there's a line put through it next to number 3, do you see that? A : Yes , I do . Q: Would this have been a document that would have been circulated to you? A: Apparently, yes. Q: And it is a Monsanto Chemicals Limited document entitled "Product toxicology-Aroclors" , a report summarizing present knowledge concerning chlorine - containing residues in wildlife and visits to organization implicated therewith during the period of April 28 through May 1, 1969, do you see that? A: I do see it. Q: And it's by D.V.N. Hardy. Who was he? A: Well, I don't recall him, but I think it defines him down below. Q: Formerly the research services manager for Monsanto Chemicals Limited, and at this point a Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014953 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 86 1 consultant in the area of product toxicology? 2 A : Yes . 3 Q: That's what it says. If you'll turn to the 4 second page, sir, on the introduction in the third 5 paragraph it discusses the work of Soren Jensen at 6 the Institute for Analytical Chemistry, and Gunnar 7 Widmark, and there's a statement there, sir, and 8 tell me if I read it correctly, it says "Using a 9 combined gas chromatograph mass spectrometer, it was 10 shown that the peaks are due to polychlorinated . 11 biphenyls PCBs. The evidence and reasoning are 12 available and the conclusion can hardly be in 13 doubt". That's what it says? 14 A : Yes . 15 Q: It does say that. 16 Q: This is referring to the persistence of PCBs 17 in the wildlife specimens that Doctors Jensen and 18 Widmark examined, correct? 19 A: I don't know what they examined. Maybe it 20 says somewhere. I've never seen this before, so -- 21 Q: Well, I'm referring up there. 22 A: I would believe that's what it's says, yes. 23 Q: Okay. So this was another piece of 24 information that was distributed to you as of the 2 5 end of 1969, correct? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014954 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 87 1 A: I'm just looking for a date. 2 Q: On the first page there's a date reference 3 6/5/69. 4 A : Yes. 5 Q: Turn to the next one. Plaintiff's Exhibit 6 86 is a memorandum from R.H. Munch to Dr. Richard, 7 and you are a carbon copy recipient, right? 8 A: Yes, I am. 9 Q: The production number is TRAN 58300 to TRAN 10 58301. The first paragraph of -- it's Dr. Munch, 11 correct ? 12 A : Yes . 13 Q: -- Dr. Munch's memorandum reads, "Don Olson 14 has asked how we should go about reaching our 15 objective of being the world leader in the Aroclor 1 6 business". Was that your objective? 1 7 A: I don't recall. 1 8 Q: You certainly don't disagree with it today, 1 9 though, that this was your intention then, isn't 2 0 that correct? 2 1 A: I can't disagree, no. 22 Q: All right. It continues, "Under present 2 3 conditions this question should probably be changed 24 to: how should we go about achieving maximum profit 2 5 from dielectric fluids or dielectrics in general? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014955 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 88 1 There are two reasons for changing the question. 2 One is the environmental pollution problem. The 3 other is that technological needs in the dielectrics 4 area are changing with ever increasing rapidity. 5 Both are compelling reasons". That's what it says? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: You received a copy of this memorandum, 8 didn1t you? 9 A: Yes. 1 0 Q: Do you recall ever disagreeing with any of 11 the statements in this memorandum? 12 A: I don't recall seeing it. 13 Q: And it's fair to say, isn't it, sir, in 1969 14 that you did want to achieve maximum profit from 15 dielectric fluids and dielectrics in general? 16 A: I don't know how -- I don't know what frame 1 7 of reference he's coming from. Okay? But that's 1 8 kind of a blanket statement. There are other - 19 yes, you want to make a profit, you want to be a 2 0 healthy business, but there are other things that 2 1 you want to have -- want to do, too. You want to do 22 it responsibly, which I feel very strongly. Which 23 means I'm arguing with the word maximum. I'm 24 arguing with the word maximum. 2 5 Q: So you don't know if that was true? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014956 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 8 9 1 A: No, I don't know if that was true. 2 Q: Could you read back my question?. 3 (The requested portion of the 4 record read by the reporter) . 5 MR. ROEDER : The answer is you don't know? 6 A: The answer is I have trouble with the word 7 maximum, because I don't know what that means. And 8 I can see a lot of other factors that would be 9 involved where you would not reach what could be a 10 maximum profit. That's all I'm -- 11 Q: All right. The memorandum continues, "In 12 the dielectrics business" -- I'm reading from the 13 third paragraph -- "In the dielectrics business 1 4 area we have reached a situation where it is 15 necessary to have a more and more detailed knowledge 1 6 of how our fluids will be used by our customers in 17 order to promote the sale of our products" . Is that 1 8 correct ? 1 9 A: That's correct. 2 0 Q: "This led Don to ask whether our capacitor 21 technical facilities are adequate or whether 2 2 equipment additions are necessary" . Do you recall 23 making such a suggestion or statement? 24 A : No . 2 5 Q: Is that a type of statement that would be Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014957 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 90 1 consistent with what you understood your duties to 2 be ? 3 A: I'm just -- knowing the capacities and 4 things and how the facilities are would be something 5 I'd be interested in. I don't know how to tie that 6 with the sentence above it. 7 Q: All right. Let me ask you the question this 8 way, you agreed that in the dielectrics business 9 area it was a situation where it's necessary to have 10 more and more detailed knowledge of how your fluids 11 would be used by your customers; wasn't that true of 1 2 other uses of your fluids beyond the dielectrics 13 area? 14 MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. 15 MR. ROEDER: Do you understand it? 1 6 A: Try it again. 1 7 (The requested portion of the 1 8 record read by the reporter) . 19 MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form of the 20 question, it assumes facts not in evidence . If 21 you're able to respond to that question, you may. 22 A: You know, that wasn't my statement. Okay? 23 Q: I understand that. But wasn't it true? 24 A: It was true that as this thing was evolving 2 5 there is a point in time when we felt we needed to Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014958 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 91 1 provide further information to customers. 2 Q: That wasn't my question. My question really 3 related to the statement that you just agreed a 4 minute ago with, and that is, in the dielectrics 5 business area we have reached a situation where it 6 is necessary to have a more and more detailed 7 knowledge of how our fluids will be used by our 8 customers in order to promote sale of our products. 9 That's the statement you agreed with. What I wanted 10 to know is - 11 MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. 12 MR. ROEDER: What I wanted to know, wasn't 13 it true, in business areas outside of the 14 dielectrics area, that you needed to have more and 1 5 more detailed knowledge of how your fluids would be 1 6 used in order to promote the sale of your products? 17 MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form, 18 mischaracterizes what the witness's prior testimony 1 9 has been. 2 0 MR. ROEDER: It certainly doesn't. But the 21 record will show what the record will show. 2 2 A: Well, to me, a customer is a customer. All 2 3 right? And I would not differentiate one 24 marketplace from another. I guess I'm answering you 25 that if there is data that is available, it should ________________________________________________________ Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014959 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 92 1 be made available. You know, if it's -- if you 2 feel it's important enough to get it to them, then 3 you ought to get it to all of them. So I would 4 encompass others. 5 Q: I'm not sure that's answering my question, 6 though. Would you like it read back? 7 A: I'm trying to. 8 MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form of the 9 question, vague and ambiguous and confusing. 1 0 MR. ROEDER: Wasn't it true? It really 11 calls for a yes or no. 12 A: I'm not sure I agree with this statement. 13 That's okay, too? ' 14 MR. CHAMBERS: That's fair enough. 15 MR. ROEDER: The record will show what the 1 6 record will show. You're not changing your 17 testimony, are you, sir? 18 A : No . 1 9 Q: I'll move to strike the answer because I 20 don't think it responds to my question, sir. It 2 1 really calls for a yes or no answer. And if you'd 2 2 like, I'll ask Mr. Gore to read the question back. 2 3 Would you like that? 24 A: Yes. 2 5 (The requested portion of the Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014960 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 93 1 record read by the reporter) . 2 A: In many of them -- this is a different 3 question. In many of them I don't know -- I don't 4 know but what we had good detailed -- I believe we 5 had good detailed knowledge of the products to begin 6 with. 1 Q: So, is your answer no? 8 A: My answer is I don't remember, first of 9 all. Okay? So I'm sitting here now trying to say. 1 0 Q: Well, is your testimony you cannot testify 11 whether you needed to have a more and more detailed 12 knowledge of how your fluids would be used by your 13 customers in order to promote their sale? 14 A: We can start this all over again, but I'm 15 having trouble with -- I don't know where -- I'm 16 not sure I fully understand this first statement. 17 Okay? I'm trying to understand what he's saying and 18 then whether I would today agree with that. All 1 9 right? I'm trying to put it back in the frame of 20 reference of then. And I don't know what the 21 situation -- I don't know what the situation was 2 2 which would require this in order to promote the 23 sales. That's where I'm having difficulty. I 24 thought we had a pretty good knowledge of -- we had 2 5 a fair knowledge of the customer applications to Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014961 94 1 begin with. 2 Q: Well, if you look at the first paragraph. 3 Dr. Munch said, as he reconstituted your objective 4 of being the world leader in the Aroclor business to 5 how should we go about achieving maximum profit from 6 dielectric fluids or dielectrics in general, he gave 7 two reasons for changing the question, correct? One 8 was the environmental pollution problem, and you see 9 that in the memorandum? 10 11 A: Ye s . Q: And the other reason he gave is that . 12 technological needs in the dielectrics area are 1 3 changing with ever increasing rapidity. He gave 14 that, right ? 1 5 A : Okay. 16 Q: So you agreed with both of those at the 17 time, right? 18 A: I read them. All right? I read them. 1 9 Q: You don't recall disagreeing? 2 0 A : No , I don't. 2 1 Q: You don't recall writing a letter to Dr. 2 2 Munch saying he's full of baloney, I totally 2 3 disagree with this memorandum, correct? 24 A: No , I don't. 2 5 Q: I think we'd have it, if you did. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014962 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 9 5 1 A: I think you would, too. 2 Q: And if they produced it, I hope we found it, 3 but I don't think they did. But my question was, 4 wasn't it true as a general proposition that you 5 needed to know more and more about how your 6 customers were using your products to effectively 7 market them? 8 A: That would be the goal of any marketing 9 person. 10 Q : Okay . 11 A: That's all I'm really -- I wouldn't 12 differentiate. 13 Q: All right. So, then, the answer really is 14 yes to the question, isn't it? If the question is 15 hadn't you reached a situation where it was 1 6 necessary to have more and more detailed knowledge 1 7 of how your fluids would be used by your customers 18 in areas beyond the dielectrics area to promote 19 their sale, isn't the answer to that yes? 20 A: Yes. It's a generic question, really. 21 Q : Right. 22 A: It's a generic question that relates to any 23 time. That's the way I'm responding. It's not to a 24 situation in one area. You would always want to 2 5 have better information on your customer's Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014963 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 96 1 applications. 2 Q: Right. How would you go about acquiring 3 that information, as a general proposition? 4 A : Talk to them. 5 Q: Call them up and visit them? You're nodding 6 your head, is that yes? 7 A: Yes. I'm sorry. 8 Q: You go out and visit them and see how 9 they're using it? 1 0 A : Sure . Yes . 11 Q: You'd make your own observations as to how 12 they're using it, correct? 13 A : Perhaps. 14 Q: You might offer suggestions as to how they 15 might use their products for your benefit and their 16 benefit, correct? 17 18 A: Possibly, yes. Q: And that was something that Monsanto did for 1 9 some customers, right? 2 0 A : Yes. 2 1 Q: Let's go to the next document, Plaintiff's 2 2 Exhibit 87. This is the one that we got sidetracked 2 3 that we were going to originally. Plaintiff's 24 Exhibit 87 bears production number TRAN 22030 2 5 through 22039. And it lists you as a representative Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014964 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 97 1 of a meeting held in St. Louis with General Electric 2 Company January 21 and 22, 1972. 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: Now, looking at this document, this would 5 suggest that you attended the meeting, correct? 6 A: Yes, it would. 7 Q: And you remember meeting Mr. Edward Raab, 8 don't you ? 9 A: Yes, I do remember meeting him. 10 Q: He was the GE representative from 11 Pittsfield, Massachusetts? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And the other names on the Monsanto side 14 you're familiar with, right? Mr. Bergen, correct, 15 yourself, Dr. Wheeler, Dr. Richard, Dr. Munch, Dr. 16 Keller? 17 A: I don't recall Dr. Tucker. 18 Q: Okay. Mr. Papageorge you remember? 1 9 A : Yes . 20 Q: How about Mr. Bryant? 2 1 A: Yes. 2 2 Q: And Mr. Benignus you remember, he reported 2 3 to you? 24 A: Yes. 2 5 Q: Do you recall at or about this time General Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014965 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 98 1 Electric was concerned that you would cease 2 producing Aroclors that it had used for dielectric 3 purposes, correct? 4 A: Yes. I'm sure, yes. Yes. 5 Q: And General Electric had requested that you 6 continue to produce those products for it, isn't 7 that also true? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: At whose suggestion did you first bring up, 1 0 you being Monsanto, bring up the idea that you would 11 stop producing Aroclors for dielectrics? 12 A: I have no idea. 13 Q: Do you recall that issue being discussed? 14 A : No, I don't . 15 Q: What do you recall General Electric telling 16 you on this issue? 1 7 A: I recall a concern that we had -- I don't 1 8 know if it was just from General Electric, I recall 1 9 a great concern that we had an industry that did not 2 0 have a replacement product because it was -- there 2 1 was nothing else that had the fire resistance, and I 2 2 recall that we were dealing with a pretty major 2 3 industry in trying to sort out what is the right way 2 4 to balance all the factors that are encompassed in 2 5 it. General Electric certainly would have been at Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014966 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 99 the forefront of that. Q: Now, other than the dielectric uses in transformers, what else would be used in transformers other than dielectrics? What were the potential market alternatives? A: I don't believe there was one that was fire resistant. There were others, I don't recall what they are. There were others, but I do not believe there were any of them that were fire resistant. Q: Mineral oil, is that one of them? A: Yes. Q: Do you know what's used in transformers today? A: I don't know. Q: You don't know if it's mineral oil? A : No . Q: Would that be something that would be more particularly within Mr. Benignus' competence than yours ? A : Yes . Q: I'd like to turn your attention to page 8 of that document. There is a -- it really carries over from the previous page, and there's a letter K that says "Facts as agreed by those in attendance". Do you see that? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014967 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10 0 A: Yes, I do. Q: One of the facts agreed to by those in attendance on page 8 and the next page is number 21. It reads, "Monsanto Company is convinced that analytical techniques and data from some laboratories investigating PCBs are reliable and that the conclusions being formulated are valid" . Do you recall that being discussed? A: No, I don't. Q: But that's true, isn't it, at or about this time, Monsanto was convinced that the analytical techniques and data from some of the laboratories investigating the PCBs were reliable and that the conclusions that they formulated were valid? A : Yes . Q: And, in fact, the facts as agreed to by those in attendance relate to those conclusions, don't they? For example, there is PCBs affect rat reproduction, conclusion 15, do you see that? A: Yes,I do. Q: Some PCB affects leghorn chicken reproduction, that's conclusion 16, right? A: I see that. Q: So there was some suggestion that Monsanto had accepted as of this time that the scientific and Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014968 ______________________________________________________________________________________ 101 1 analytical techniques were reliable and the 2 conclusions formulated were valid and they impacted 3 the products that you sold for Monsanto, correct? 4 MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. You 5 can answer. 6 A : Yes . 7 MR. ROEDER : Paragraph L, if I could turn 8 your attention to page 9, "What GE desires". Would 9 you take a moment and review that. By the way, is 1 0 this a document you reviewed in preparation for your 11 testimony ? 12 A: I don't think I've ever seen it. 13 A : Okay . 14 Q: All right. Under "What GE desires", what 15 I'm particularly interested in, sir, is desire 16 number 4. "In reply to Monsanto's legal question 1 7 whether with continued use of Aroclor 1254 and 1260 1 8 GE would assume sole and complete liability, Mr. 1 9 Raabansweredno! ". Doyouseethat? 2 0 A: Yes, I do. 21 Q: Was that, in fact, GE's position? 22 A : I don't know. 2 3 Q: Okay. You don't recall them making very 24 clear that they would not accept sole and complete 2 5 liability for the continued used of 1254 and 1260? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014969 10 2 1 A: No , I don 1 t . 2 Q: Was that an issue that concerned you, 3 though, the liability issue concerning the continued 4 use of these products? 5 A: Sure, it would be. I don't recall, 6 individually, but, yes, that's logical, that would 7 be an issue . 8 Q: In what way would it be logical that it 9 would be an issue for you? 10 A: Because that's just -- that's part of the . 11 business risk. 12 Q: The liability associated with the use of the 13 product? 14 A: Yes. 15 MR. ROEDER: It's now 12:30, this is 1 6 probably as convenient a time as any to take a 1 7 break. 1 8 (Noon Recess). 1 9 ( Plaintiff's Exhibit 176 2 0 marked for identification). 21 MR. ROEDER: Exhibit 176 is a memorandum 2 2 dated January 26, 1970 from Mr. Bergen to Mr. 23 Durland, Tokyo, and you're carboned on it. It has 24 production number TNGS 8679 through 8682. This is a 2 5 document you would have received, correct? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014970 103 1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Is this a document you reviewed yesterday in 3 preparation for your testimony? 4 A: I believe so. 5 Q: I'd like to draw your attention to the 6 second page, the top of it. It talks about a 7 meeting, quote, recently was had with General 8 Electric on the whole subject of Aroclor 1260 and 9 transformers. And it says, "They made a good case 10 for why we could not discontinue manufacture of this 11 product 11 . Do you see that? 12 A : Yes. 13 Q: That's at that meeting that we were 14 discussing prior to the break, wasn't it? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: And Mr. Bergen's memorandum continues, "We 17 have recently received indications from both Bayer 1 8 and Prodelac". Those are European manufacturers, 19 right ? 2 0 A: Yes. I had forgotten about Bayer, but 2 1 Prodelac is. 22 Q: "That they are feeling little or no pressure 2 3 to discontinue production of these products and that 24 they will be extremely reluctant to do so and only 25 with much more viable proof. With these two Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014971 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10 4 producers taking this position, it obviously would make it difficult for us to stop supplying countries such as Latin America, Australia, India and other world areas because Bayer and Prodelac will simply pick up the business at our expense". Were those Mr. Bergen's views at the time? A: I assume so. Q: That's what he wrote? A : Ye s. _ Q: This is what we discussed earlier that you . would not agree with now, the idea that you could continue to manufacture and distribute the products outside the United States that you couldn't distribute in the United States? A: Yes. Q: The third paragraph of this memorandum references a letter "we intend to send out to all of the U.S. functional fluids customers by February 1" . Do you see that? A: Yes. Q: That's a letter that you had participated yourself in formulating, isn't that correct? A: That's the letter I signed, yes. Q: Tell me a little bit about that letter, sir. With respect to that letter - Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014972 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10 5 A: I don't think -- I don't know if he phrased it right. It doesn't matter. Q: How would you phrase it differently? A: I don't know -- it didn't go to the Skydraul users, and I would have put them in the broad context of functional fluids. Q: Because the Skydrauls did not contain PCBs? A : Yes, sir. Q: Anyway, with that caveat, a decision to send a letter like this out to customers would have been an important decision that Mr. Bergen had to approve, correct? A: I would assume so. I did not -- I really do not remember. But I would certainly assume so. Q: The letter that you signed was a letter that various people had looked at, isn't that correct? A: I assume so, because I'm -- I think there were people who contributed to not just looking at it, but to writing it. Q: Okay. I 'm going to show you Exhibit 63 . Exhibit 63, sir, is a draft of a letter. Up at the top in parentheses is the term "Functional fluids". Would you take a moment to review this document. A: Yes, sir. Q: There are a few pages to this document, and Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014973 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10 6 your counsel has just turned you to the second draft of "Functional fluids". Is this second draft that's part of this Exhibit 63, does it contain your handwriting? A: No, it does not. Q: Do you know whose handwriting that is? A : No , I don' t . Q: There's a third draft, yet, that's part of the same exhibit? A : Ye s , s i r . . Q: If you'd look -- do you have that in front of you? A: I'm on the third one. Q: I'm looking at one that has Bates numbers TRAN 2 2 3 4 6 . A: I've got two -- what did you say? Q: Right there. A: There is two others before that in mine. Q: There's the fourth one? A: There is. There's two others. Q: This is the fourth one. The first draft is part of this exhibit - MR. CHAMBERS: I think it's the fifth? A: Which one are we going to? MR. CHAMBERS: Let's go by Bates number. ,Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014974 10 7 1 MR. ROEDER : That's what I thought I just 2 did, but perhaps you're right, . There is one draft 3 which is Bates numbered TRAN 3240. The second draft 4 which starts at Bates number TRAN 3242. There's the 5 third draft that's Bates numbered TRAN 42666. 6 You're absolutely right, there is a fourth one - 7 fourth or fifth -- fifth one, 24 996, and then 8 another one starting at TRAN 22346. Do you have 9 that one in front of you? 10 A: Yes. . . 11 Q: Now, does that contain your handwriting? 12 A: No, it does not. 13 Q: Do you see your handwriting on any of these 14 document s ? 1 5 A : No , I do not . 16 17 18 Q: There was one point that was announced where there had been discussion and approval of this particular letter before it was sent out; I mean, 1 9 you had made sure that legal passed on it, correct? 2 0 A : Yes. 21 Q: And you would have made sure that at least 22 Mr. Bergen was aware that it was going out? 2 3 A : Yes. 24 Q: And you would have made sure that the letter 25 were carefully worded? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014975 10 8 1 A : Yes. 2 Q: And so when you reviewed it, all of these 3 procedures had been put in place, correct? I mean, 4 all these -- not procedures. Let me rephrase the 5 question. When you prepared it to be sent out -- 6 A: When I signed it. 7 Q: Yes. It had been reviewed, it had been 8 approved, legal had looked at it, other people had 9 looked at it and comments were solicited to ensure 10 that no one had any objection to the wording of the 11 letter? 12 A: Everything but the last I know. The last 13 part of that, I don't know. 14 Q: All right. And the purpose was, was it not, 1 5 to provide the best information at that time to 16 customers of other Pydraul products with respect to 17 the PCB issue? 1 8 A: The purpose was to notify all of the PCB 1 9 customers that the 54 and 1260 had been found in the 20 environment. I think a second purpose was to point 21 -- to talk about the -- to show which ones had 2 2 been found and which of the products that they 2 3 bought had not been found, and then also to let them 24 know that the ones with the lower chlorine had not 25 been found in the environment. Those were both Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014976 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10 9 purposes. There was also a purpose to remind them to -- that any chemical, they should be careful about how they discharge and how they capture it in their own facility. That was the reason for the - general reason for the letter. Q: Can I have the question and answer repeated? (The requested portion of the record read by the reporter) . MR. ROEDER : Did you give a deposition in a case entitled United States of America versus Outboard Marine Corporation? A: Yes, sir. Q: And that was a deposition that was taken in Chicago on November 24, 1981? A: Yes. Q: I'm reading from page 42. Ms. Oliver: "I am asking what the intent of the letter was". And the answer, "I cannot be any clearer. Let me try to restate it and see if I will state it differently. I'm saying the letter was to inform customers of 54 and 60 that it had been found in the environment. The other purpose was to provide our best information at that time to customers of other Pydrauls and the intent. I think I've said it as Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014977 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 11 0 1 precisely as it can be". Did you give that answer to 2 that question? 3 A: Yes, I did. I must have. 4 Q: You wanted to tell the truth at that 5 deposition? 6 A : Of course, 7 Q: Was this letter - 8 MR. CHAMBERS: Let me object to the form 9 just for a moment. Would you refer me to that 10 page ? 11 MR. ROEDER: Page 42. 12 MR. CHAMBERS: Sorry to interrupt. 13 MR. ROEDER: The letter that you were 14 sending to your customers was an important event for 15 your functional fluids division, wasn't it? 16 A : Yes, it was. 17 Q: Okay. And your letter was intended, was it 1 8 not, to give them the benefit of the most 1 9 significant information that you had concerning PCBs 20 in your Pydraul products as of that date, wasn't it? 21 A: I don't know what you mean exactly. Because 2 2 the letter was primarily to tell them which ones had 2 3 been found in the environment and which ones had 24 not . 2 5 Q: Well, I'll tell you what, did you discuss Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014978 111 1 the letter at all with Phocion Park? 2 MR. CHAMBERS: I object. 3 MR. ROEDER: Did Mr. Park review it? 4 MR. CHAMBERS: Objection. 5 A: I don't remember. 6 MR. ROEDER: You're confident that it was 7 reviewed by someone in the legal department? 8 A : Yes . 9 Q: Okay. I think it's exhibit 22 is the - 10 that is the exhibit itself, the letter. Let's turn 11 our attention to that. Is that the first letter, 12 Exhibit 22, Plaintiff's Exhibit 22 the first 13 customer letter that was sent to customers of 14 Pydraul by Monsanto that related to the PCB 15 16 17 18 environmental problem? A: To my knowledge. Q: Why was it sent to them? A: That date, I don't think there's any 19 reason. That's when it was ready. I don't believe 2 0 there's a reason for it. 21 22 Q: But the letter was sent after you had the opportunity to review your proposed policy, you, 23 24 25 Monsanto, to review your proposed policy with General Electric, correct? A: It was sent after the General Electric Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (,314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014979 112 1 meeting. 2 Q: Do you recall if this letter was discussed 3 in the meeting with General Electric? 4 A : I don 1 t recall. 5 Q: Let's look at Exhibit 22. And for the 6 record, that is your signature, isn't it, sir? 7 A: Yes, it is. 8 Q: Exhibit 22 bears production numbers TNGS 9 8899 through TNGS 8906. It begins "Dear sir, 1 0 recently several newspaper and magazine articles . 11 have been published indicating that polychlorinated 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 biphenyls, PCBs, have been discovered at some points in some marine, aquatic and wildlife environments". Let me stop right there. Which newspaper or magazine articles were these several articles that were being referred to here? A: I don't know. Q: It would have been easy, wouldn't it, sir, 1 9 to have set forth in this letter which newspaper and 2 0 magazine articles you were referring to? 21 22 A: Would it be possible to? Yes. Q: Now, the statement that the articles have 2 3 been published indicating that polychlorinated 24 biphenyls have been discovered, I'd like to impact 2 5 that a little, if I can, sir. At this point Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014980 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 113 Monsanto had confirmed that the research with respect to the PCBs in the environment was valid, correct? A : Yes. Q: With that in mind, sir, why was the word "indicating" used? A : I don't know . Q: "Indicating" is not as strong a word, is it, sir, as demonstrating or establishing or concluding? MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form, it's . argumentative. MR. ROEDER : Is it or is it not? A: I would agree with what you said. Q: But if this set forth Monsanto's view with respect to the research on this issue accurately, isn't it fair to say that the letter would have used a stronger term rather than "indicating"? MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. A : Could have . Q: Next, as we go through the letter, it indicates that PCBs have been discovered at some points in some marine, aquatic and wildlife environments. Isn't it true by this time, sir, you knew where the PCB problem had been identified as reflected in the newspaper and magazine articles? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014981 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 114 A: I don't know that I can answer that. Q: But in looking at the research that we looked at this morning that was in the memoranda that was addressed to you, it would have been easy - A : Which one ? Q: We can go through - A: No, I don't want to go through, I'm not trying to do that. Q: For example, the report from Dr. Hardy that . summarized the research in England and Europe. That was information available to you and others at Monsanto, correct? A: Yes . Q: The memoranda from Dr. Richard which summarized his conversations with Dr. Widmark in Sweden, that was available to you? A: Yes. Q: Okay. The article in Nature magazine that Dr. Richard summarized that was written by Dr. Risebrough, that was available, correct? A: Yes. Q: The results of the testing by Dr. Joseph Colandra, that was available to the extent it was completed, isn't that correct? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014982 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 115 A: Yes. I'm not sure about that. Q: But that was within Monsanto's control because they were paying for it? A: I'm just not sure at what stage it was at. Q: But everything we looked at earlier today in your testimony, the Aroclor wildlife accusations, for example, Plaintiff's Exhibit 172, let me show you that again, or it's in front of you, that discussed - A: I've got it. Q: That discussed Dr. Richard's view or analysis of Dr. Risebrough's paper in Nature, correct, that was available? A: Yes. Q: Okay. And this is the memorandum where Dr. Risebrough indicates it is timely, perhaps imperative that this paper and its implications be discussed with customers? A : Dr. Richard? Q : Dr. Richard. MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. MR. ROEDER: That's where Dr. Richard makes that - - A: He did make that, yes. Q: That was available? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014983 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 116 A: Yes. Q: Okay. This was in March 1969, right, the date of that memorandum? A: Yes. Q: So all of this information was available to you, and by this time Monsanto had concluded that this research was valid, isn't that correct? A: Yes. On the higher Aroclors, yes. Q: And the marine and aquatic and wildlife environments that were reflected in the research . available to Monsanto which it had copies of could easily have been identified? A: Could have, yes. Q: Don't you agree with me, sir, that using language that says PCBs have been discovered at some points in some marine, aquatic and wildlife environments suggests that it's not a prevalent problem? A: I don't draw any conclusion. Q: If we can look back at the drafts of this letter which were part of Exhibit 63, at least somebody wanted to cross out -- right here. A: Thank you. Q: I'll show you my copy. At page -- the document which is identified as TRAN 22346, someone Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014984 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 117 identified it -- an editor wanted to line out "at some points"? A: Yes, sir. Q: That didn't make it though, did it? A: It doesn't appear to. Q: The next sentence in the first paragraph says, "The quantities detected are said to be in the parts per million and parts per billion category". That's what the document says, correct? A : Ye s , s i r . . Q: It's written in a passive voice, isn't it? A: If I remember my English properly, yes. Q: It doesn't identify who said it? A : That's t rue . Q: And it doesn't identify what particularly the people who said it said, right? A: That's correct. Q: That could have been done, couldn't it? A: It could have. Q: The next line, the next paragraph, "It is claimed that the PCBs found strongly resemble chlorinated biphenyls containing 54 percent and 60 percent chlorine by weight". That's what your letter says, right? A: Yes, sir. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014985 118 1 Q: Who was doing the claiming? 2 A: I don't know. 3 Q: But at this point Monsanto had already 4 accepted the research as accurate with respect to 5 the persistence of PCBs in the environment, right? 6 A : Yes. 7 Q: Why would you use the term "claimed", then? 8 A: I don't know. 9 Q: Because you knew it was true, right? 10 A: I don't know. . 11 Q: Well, Monsanto had accepted that research as 12 being true, correct? 13 A : Ye s , s i r . 14 Q: Do you agree with me - 15 A: I can't speak for Monsanto on anything. 1 6 Q: For example, we looked at the minutes of the 1 7 meeting with GE where it is summarized as everyone 1 8 agreed that that research and those conclusions were 1 9 valid, correct? 2 0 A: Yes, sir. 2 1 Q: So when the term claimed is used, doesn't 2 2 that suggest you don't agree with it in? 23 MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. 24 A: It doesn't suggest that to me. It doesn't 25 suggest to that to me. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014986 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 119 MR. ROEDER: Do you think that could be a reasonable conclusion that someone could reach? MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. That calls for this witness to speculate about what somebody else would do. MR. ROEDER: Well, you can answer the question. Let me state it completely. Do you believe it could be reasonable for someone who reads this -- let me lay a further foundation. Strike that. You are writing this letter so that people . who would receive it will either do or not do something, correct? A: So they will have information, yes. Q : And you understand that people who get your letter will rely upon your letter in forming their on conclusions about what they will or will not do? MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. MR. ROEDER: Isn't that also true? A: That's logical. Q: Okay. That's why you're sending it out, right? A: Yes. Q: Because if they wouldn't be impacted by it one way or the other, why send it, right? A : Right . Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014987 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 12 0 1 Q: Well, isn't it true that in the normal 2 everyday sense of the term, when someone says 3 someone else claims, quote, unquote, that something 4 happens, that the person who uses that term is not 5 indicating he agrees with them? 6 MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form, the 7 question is vague and ambiguous, argumentative. If 8 you're able to respond, you're welcome to. 9 A: No. At least not to me. Not to me, it does 10 not say that. . 11 MR. ROEDER : Let's move on. "The PCBs found 12 strongly resemble chlorinated biphenyls". There was 13 no doubt in your mind that they were chlorinated 14 biphenyls, aren't they? 15 A : Yes . 16 Q: So - 1 7 A: Yes, as a non-technica1 -- non-scientist , 1 8 yes. 1 9 Q: Why not write that the PCBs were chlorinated 2 0 biphenyls ? 21 A : I don't know. 22 Q: Let's continue. "Chlorinated biphenyls 2 3 containing 54 percent and 60 percent chlorine by 24 weight" . Weight is an important concept in 2 5 determining what is or is not -- what type of Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014988 12 1 1 chemical compound one might find, isn't that 2 correct? 3 A: I'm sorry, I don't -- 4 Q: Let me see if I can rephrase it. When you 5 are trying to determine what a particular compound 6 is made of in chemistry, isn't the weight of the 7 compound itself useful for you to determine, based 8 upon your knowledge of chemistry and chemical 9 engineering, what that compound is? 1 0 A : Yes . 11 Q: So when you know the weight of a particular 12 compound in relation to other chemical 13 characteristics, you can determine for your own 14 satisfaction to a degree of certainty that you find 1 5 acceptable that it is, in fact, the compound that 1 6 you would expect to find if you went and did the 1 7 chemical equations and reactions that you would get 1 8 from chemistry, isn't that correct? 19 MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. 20 A: Boy, I'm not -- you know, I'm not a 21 22 scientist. All right? MR. ROEDER : You're a chemical engineer. 2 3 A: Non-practicing . Non-practicing. And I'm 24 not sure exactly where to go. I think it was said 25 by weight because there is normally two ways to do Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014989 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 12 2 things, by weight or by volume, and I think by putting it by weight, that's telling how these products were classified, so that anybody would know . Q: But in any event, you, yourself, didn't dispute and accepted the fact that the. PCBs found were chlorinated biphenyls that contained 54 percent and 60 percent chlorine by weight? A: That's correct. Q: The next line says "Products which are sold . by Monsanto under the trade names of Aroclor 1254 and 1260 do contain chlorinated biphenyls". That's what that says, correct? A: Yes, sir. Q: In fact, isn't it true that Aroclor 1254 and 1260 contain chlorinated biphenyls that are 54 percent and 60 percent respectively chlorine by weight A: Yes. Q: It doesn't say that, though, does it? A : No , it doesn't. Q: Any reason why it didn't? A : I don't recall. Q : In fact, there 1' s no reason that you could not have specifically indicated in this letter that Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014990 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 12 3 the PCBs found were Aroclor 1254 and 1260, is there? MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. A: Not to my layman's view. MR. ROEDER: The letter goes on, "In addition to Aroclor 1254 and 1260, Monsanto sells certain functional fluids containing Aroclor 1254. These include Pydraul 625, Pydraul AC, Pydraul AC Winter Grade, Pydraul 540, Therminol FR-3 and _ certain dielectric formulations". That's what that says, right ? . A: Yes, sir. Q: By this statement were you attempting to indicate that these other Pydraul and Therminol and dielectric formulations contain Aroclor 1254? A: Yes. Q: At this point, sir, you could have indicated in this letter, couldn't you, that use of any of these additional pydrauls, Therminol or dielectric formulations would contain the same PCBs that were persisting in the environment? A : Could have. Q: The next sentence says, "Several other companies around the world also produce products containing chlorinated biphenyls". That was true, correct? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014991 124 1 A: That is correct. 2 Q: But it's also true that the only one that 3 was producing chlorinated biphenyls in the United 4 States was Monsanto, right? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: So it's also true, is it not, sir, that the 7 only PCBs that could have been found in the United 8 States were produced by Monsanto? 9 MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. 10 A : No . 11 MR. ROEDER: Let me rephrase the question. 12 Unless PCBs were imported, the only PCBs that could 13 have been found in the United States were produced 14 by Monsanto? 15 MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. 1 6 A: Unless they get some from some other source, 1 7 which I know nothing about . 18 MR. ROEDER: To your knowledge, then. Let 1 9 me amend the question. 2 0 ' ' A: Yes . 21 22 Q: The answer to that is yes, to your knowledge? 2 3 A: Yes. 24 Q: What importance did you believe a customer 2 5 would place upon the statement that several other 4 Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014992 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 12 5 1 companies around the world also produce products 2 containing chlorinated biphenyls? 3 A: I don't remember. 4 Q: It wouldn't matter to them because they're 5 not buying from those, isn't that correct, to your 6 knowledge ? 7 A: To my knowledge, yes. Although some of them 8 may have overseas facilities where they might. 9 Q: None of these were sent to overseas 1 0 facilities, none of these letters, correct? . 11 A : Correct . 12 Q: They were all sent to locations in the 13 United States? 14 A: To my knowledge. 15 Q : So - - 16 A: Maybe Canada. I don't know that. I don't 17 have any idea about that. 18 Q: But as for the United States, at least, it 1 9 was immaterial to your customers whether anyone else 2 0 around the world also produced these products unless 21 22 those customers also had overseas operations? MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form, it 23 calls for this witness to speculate about what was 24 material or immaterial to somebody else. Subject to 2 5 that, you can answer. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014993 12 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A: I'm not quite sure what the relevancy would be . MR. ROEDER: Let me rephrase the question. When you wrote this letter to your customers, I think we've established you hoped that they would use this information in their business operations, correct ? A: Yes. Q: If those business operations did not extend overseas, then the information that other companies also produce products containing chlorinated biphenyls around the world would have no usefulness for those customers, correct? A: Not that I can think of. Q: And this letter doesn't tell them that you're the only source in the United States for this product, does it? A: It doesn't state -- no, it doesn't state that. Q: You knew that fact when you signed it in February 1970, didn't you? A: Yes. Q: The next sentence, sir, the next paragraph, "As your supplier of Aroclor 1254 and 1260 formulated products containing 1254, we wish to Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014994 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 12 7 1 alert you to the potential problem of environmental 2 contamination as referred to in the newspaper and 3 magazine articles". In your mind, sir, it wasn't a 4 potential problem any more, was it? 5 MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. 6 A: There was a period in which I did, myself, 7 believe that the two were -- that they were in the 8 environment, yes. 9 Q: But didn't we establish earlier that you had 10 formed the conclusion in 1969 that these Aroclors . 11 were persisting in the environment? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: So it wasn't a potential problem any more, 14 was it, it was a problem? 15 MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. 16 MR. ROEDER: Correct? 17 A: To me, yes. 18 Q: And it was a problem of environmental 1 9 contamination, isn't that also correct? 2 0 A : Yes . 2 1 Q: You could have told your customers at this 2 2 point, could you have not, sir, that we wish to 2 3 alert you to the real problem of environmental 24 contamination? 2 5 A: Could have been worded differently. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014995 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 12 8 Q: And you could have said that, right? A: We could have said -- I've forgotten exactly what you said, but it could have been worded dif ferently. Q: And that would have been consistent -- if you had worded it that way, that would have been consistent with what you thought was the true nature ? A: Yes. Q: "We would like to point out the following . additional facts". I'm continuing on in the letter. "Products such as Pydraul 90, 135, 230, 312, A-200, F-9, 150 and 60, Therminol 153 and Therminol FR-1 and FR-2 are not formulated with Aroclor 1254 or 1260". That's what that says, correct, sir? A: Yes, sir. Q: And you wouldn't have meant any of that today, that statement? A: You mean if I was signing this letter today? Q: Right. This particular paragraph. A: No, I would not. Q: The next sentence - A: No, no, that one I would. Because they were Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014996 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 12 9 not formulated with 1254 or 1260. Q: That's what I mean. So you would not change that? A: I would not change that. Q: What about the next one, "PCBs with a chlorine content of less than 54 percent have not been found in the environment and appear to present no potential problem to the environment", that would be changed? A: Yes, it would. . Qs And you knew, did you not, sir, that it wasn't even clear to the researchers at Monsanto as to whether or not PCBs with a chlorine level of less than 54 percent were persisting in the environment? A: At that time? Q: Yes. A: I don't know that. Q: Do you recall looking at an exhibit earlier today where Dr. Richard indicates that perhaps Dr. Widmark's own procedures are obliterating and removing the PCBs with a chlorine contents of less than 54 percent? A: I do recall that. That was a supposition, though, that wasn't a -- as I read it, that was not a fact at that time. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014997 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 13 0 Q: But it was a risk and a concern that was discussed inside Monsanto at the time, isn't that correct ? A: It was in that letter, yes. That's all I remember. Q: And you have no recollection if anyone did anything to determine whether or not it was the analytical procedures that Dr. Widmark was using that accounted for his failure to find PCBs with a chlorine content of less than 54 percent in the environment? A: I have no recollection one way or the other. Q: Never directed anyone to do it? A: Not to my recollection. Qi Never heard anyone suggest that we ought to follow up on this with Dr. Widmark? A: I don't remember. Q: You don't recall? A : No . Q: In fact, though, you would change this sentence now, wouldn't you? A: Yes, sir. Q: Because PCBs with a chlorine content of less than 54 percent did persist in the environment, isn't that correct? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014998 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 13 1 A: That's correct. Q: And they did present an actual environmental problem, right? A: Yes. Q: Not even a potential one? A: Yes, sir. Q: So the statement that's in the letter that they appear to present no potential problem would be amended now based upon what you know, that they present a real problem in the environment, correct?. MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. A: I don't know what real means. But it does present a problem to the environment. Q: Real as distinct from potential. A: Okay. Yes. Q : Actual . A: I agree with that. Q: The second page of your letter indicates, "We have developed and are now testing new formulations to replace the Aroclor 1254 and 1260 components in our Pydraul products". Had those formulations been developed by that date? A : I don' t know. Q: Was this letter held at any point so that you could represent to your customers that you have Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000014999 13 2 1 developed new formulations? 2 A: I don't remember. 3 Q: Who would know that answer? 4 A : I don't know. 5 MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. 6 A: I don't know. I wouldn't. I just don't 7 remember. 8 MR. ROEDER: "The new products appear to be 9 equal in performance and to have similar physical 10 properties". What was the basis for that statement? 11 A: Again, can I just tell you how I think it 12 was? I mean, I don't remember. 13 Q: You don't remember is the answer? 14 A: I don't remember. 15 Q: Do you think someone told you it did? 16 A : I don't know. 17 Q: You next indicated that, "We feel that all 1 8 possible care should be taken in the application, 1 9 processing and effluent disposal of these products 2 0 to prevent them becoming environmental 2 1 contaminants" , correct? 22 A: Yes. 2 3 Q: Didn't you indicate earlier on the previous 24 page that PCBs with a chlorine content of less than 2 5 54 percent had not been found in the environment and Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015000 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 13 3 1 appeared to present no potential problem to the 2 environment ? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: So even though your letter indicates that 5 PCBs with a chlorine content of under 54 percent did 6 not pose an environmental problem, you still wanted 7 your customers to prevent their entry into the 8 environment? 9 A: I don't remember. 10 Q: Isn't that the natural supposition? . 11 MR. 'CHAMBERS: I object to the form, calls 12 for speculation. 13 MR. ROEDER : Let me rephrase it. If you 14 told the customers that PCBs with under 54 percent 15 did not appear to present an environmental problem, 16 why would they prevent their entry into the 17 environment? 1 8 MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. Go 1 9 ahead, you can answer, if you're able to. 2 0 A: My reaction is it's a prudent thing for any 2 1 company to do, regardless of what it is that they're 22 making or using. You don't want any of -- you want 2 3 to be prudent in your facility and keep anything 24 from any of the discharges. 2 5 MR. ROEDER: Water, for example? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015001 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 13 4 A: Yes, sure. From water disposal, yes. Q: You should not discharge water? A: You ought to reuse it. Q: So you should never discharge water? A: To the degree you can. Q: To the degree you can't, what do you do with it then? A: Then it is probably -- then it's discharged. Q: If water is not an environmental contaminant, you don't have any problem if the company discharges it, right? A: Correct. Depends upon the temperature. Q: Are there other products that are used in manufacturing that are not environmental contaminants? MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. A : I don't know. MR. ROEDER : You can't conceive of any? A: I just don't know. MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. MR. ROEDER: Okay. So, then, you wouldn't know, you'd have no opinion as to whether or not if it's not an environmental contaminant a company should or should not discharge it? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015002 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 13 5 1 MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. 2 A: You're better off not discharging anything, 3 because that means -- I'm not used to the word - 4 just the word discharge. I'm talking about if it 5 doesn't matter if it's acid or not, if something is 6 going somewhere, that's part of the yield of your 7 process, so putting the good -- you're losing 8 things that you should be keeping by not being as 9 efficient a manufacturer of whatever it is. 1 0 Q: I move to strike the anwer because it's not . 11 responsive. Do you have an opinion or not? 12 A: May I hear the question again? 13 (The requested portion of the 14 record read by the reporter) . 1 5 A: I tried to answer that, and my answer was 16 no, that they should not. I was trying to give some 1 7 reasons. 18 Q: Okay. I thought the answer called for a yes 1 9 or no, it did or it did not. But your view is that 2 0 -- let me continue on with your letter. You 2 1 attached the Chemical Week article regarding water 22 pollution standards set by each state in the union. 2 3 Is there anything in the attached Chemical Week 24 article, sir, that relates to polychlorinated 2 5 biphenyls ? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015003 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 13 6 A: By name? Q : Yes. A: I haven't read it closely. I don't believe so . Q: Okay. And your letter finishes up or concludes with a statement that this article reflects that good manufacturing practice in the future may require that no products used by any company should find their way into waterways. Did I read that correctly? . A : Yes. Q: The statement does not say, does it, sir, that good manufacturing practice today requires that no products used by any company should find their way into waterways? MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. I mean, the sentence says what -- it reads what it says. MR. ROEDER: I'd like the admission. MR. CHAMBERS: The document says what it says . MR. ROEDER: I'm entitled - A: Say again. (The requested portion of the record read by the reporter) . Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015004 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 13 7 A: No, it does not say that. Q: As I understand your testimony, that's what you thought was good manufacturing practice, the one - A: The one here? Q: No, the one as amended. A: Then I'm confused. Q: You testified earlier that you thought good manufacturing practice would require that nothing that was used should be discharged? MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form, mischaracterizes - A: I did say that, yes. MR. ROEDER: Is that how you felt when you wrote this letter? A: I don't recall. Q: Do you recall whether you changed your opinion over time? A: No, I don't recall. Q: But if you recalled that at the time you signed this letter, if that was your opinion at the time you signed this letter, then the statement did not accurately reflect what you thought a good manufacturing practice was, isn't that correct? MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015005 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 13 8 1 A: I'm missing something here. 2 MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the conclusion 3 that the witness is getting into. If we can 4 straighten it out, let's move on, but I think it's 5 unfair to confuse a witness. 6 MR. ROEDER : I'm trying not to confuse him. 7 Read the question back. And perhaps it's my 8 wording. But let me rephrase it, then. 9 A : Okay. 1 0 Q: If you hadn't changed your opinion between 11 then and now -- and you said today your opinion 12 today is that good manufacturing practice requires 13 that no products used by any company should find 14 their way into waterways, right? 1 5 A : Yes . 1 6 Q: If you hadn't changed it from then to now, 17 that would mean your opinion then was that good 1 8 manufacturing practice would require that no 19 products used by a company should find their way 2 0 into waterways, isn't that correct? 2 1 MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. 2 2 MR. ROEDER: If you haven't changed it it 2 3 would be then what it is today, right? 24 A: Yes. Okay. Yes. 2 5 Q: So, then, the statement that you signed Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015006 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 13 9 1 didn't accurately reflect what you believed to be a 2 good manufacturing practice? 3 MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. 4 A: I'm telling you how I feel today, or what I 5 think today. 6 Q: I know. But can you answer my question? 7 A: I'm not sure I can. Because I don't know 8 exactly -- I don't know -- I don't know what my 9 opinion was at that time. 10 Q: I understand that. . 11 A: I don't know the state of regulations and 12 emphasis on the environment and everything else at 13 t hat time. 14 Q: I understand that, sir. But you also 15 testified you couldn't recall if you ever changed 1 6 your opinion? 17 A : Right . 1 8 Q : Right. 1 9 A: I can't recall whether I did or didn't. 2 0 Q: Right. So my question is, if you didn't 2 1 change your opinion and your opinion today was your 2 2 opinion then. 2 3 A : Okay. 2 4 Q: Then the statement you wrote and signed in 2 5 this letter, signed your name to, did not accurately Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015007 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 14 0 1 reflect what you thought was a good manufacturing 2 practice? 3 MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form, assumes 4 facts not in evidence, very hypothetical and 5 speculative. If you're able to respond, you can try 6 to, but - 7 MR. ROEDER: Let me try it one more time. 8 A: I don't want to miss your emphasis. Are you 9 talking about in the future part? I really don't 1 0 know where -- I'm having a terrible time. . 11 Q: You know, I understand you're saying you 12 have a terrible time, but I don't think it's that 13 complicated, and if it is, it's only my fault for 14 inartfully wording the question. I apologize. 15 MR. CHAMBERS: To the extent it makes a 1 6 difference, it's that complicated to me, so it's two 1 7 against one on that point. 18 MR. ROEDER: I'm not sure majority rules on 1 9 this one. You testified that this is not consistent 2 0 with what is your opinion today? 2 1 A: No, I don't think I have. I don't think I 2 2 have . 2 3 Q: Well, do you see any difference between that 24 and the statement that says good manufacturing 2 5 practice now requires? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015008 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 14 1 A: That's a stronger statement. But -- and, you know, I'm telling you what I think good manufacturing practice is. Okay? It's not required, though. Q: Are you changing your testimony? A: No, I'm really trying not to. No, I'm not changing my testimony. MR. CHAMBERS: He's trying to answer your quest ion. MR. ROEDER: Right. I thought the question . was pretty straight forward. You said, you testified that you believed good manufacturing practices require that a company should not discharge products it uses into waterways? A: I don't know if I used that word, requires. Q: The record will show. A: It might. I just don't know that it says that or doesn't. Q : There is a difference in my mind, sir, between a practice which requires something now and something which may be required in the future . And you can see that distinction, can't you? A: Yes. Where I'm having my difficulty is, to me, the requirements of something like this are either from the company's own desires or they're Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 14 2 governmental. Q: You're talking about good manufacturing practices? A: Which is a company's own -- you know, that's their own -- they make their own decisions, there's nobody requiring it. That's the word I'm having difficulty with. I say it is good manufacturing to not discharge into waterways, that's good manufacturing practice. Q: A good manufacturing practice, as you define the- term, is something that any company sets, right? A: Some don't. Q: Some don't. Some don't set any good manufacturing practices? A: Some are better than others and some pollute, and companies are all over. Q: My question is very straight forward. A: So are my answers. Go ahead. Q: You have a statement in a letter, you testified in a manner which is inconsistent to the statement in the letter, in my opinion, based upon what the record will show. MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form and I object to that characterization of the testimony. MR. ROEDER: That's my view of what you Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015010 14 3 1 testified to, sir. What I want to know is if you 2 believed in 1970 when you signed this letter that a 3 good manufacturing practice then requires that no 4 products used by a company should find their way 5 into waterways? 6 MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. 7 A : Say it again. 8 (The requested portion of the 9 record read by the reporter) . 10 MR. CHAMBERS: Objection, that's been asked 11 and answered. 1 2 MR. ROEDER: Actually, I don't think it has, 13 that's the problem. 14 A: Are you asking me what I thought in 1970? 15 Q : Yes . 16 A: I don't know. Idon't remember. 17 Q: And you don't know whether you changed your 1 8 opinion in any way? 1 9 A : No . 2 0 Q: Is it your testimony that this statement 2 1 accurately reflected what you thought in 1970? 22 A : I don't know. 2 3 Q: Does the statement accurately reflect what 24 Monsanto thought in 1970? 2 5 A: I don't know. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015011 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 14 4 Q: Did you know in 1970 whether Monsanto believed that this statement was true? MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. A: Did I know? I don't know what Monsanto is, again, but -Q: Well, the people you dealt with. A: I believe that people that I dealt with felt that this statement was correct. Q: Okay. Now, let's see if we can -- who do you think thought that statement was correct? You're shaking your head. A: So I was. Sorry. Whoever would have reviewed it. Q: And you don't know who reviewed it? A: I don't recall. ( Plaintiff's Exhibit 177 marked for identification). A: Are you waiting for me? Q: Yes, I am. Have you had a chance to look at that ? A: Yes. Q: For the record, sir, Exhibit 177 is a memorandum from J.R. Fallon, F-a-l-l-o-n, to a number of people, and the subject is "Pollution letter", dated February 6, 1970, and production Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015012 ____________________________________________________________________________________________________14 5 1 number TNGS 8673 through 8676. And you're listed as 2 a carbon copy recipient, correct? 3 A : Yes. 4 Q: This would have come to you in the ordinary 5 course, wouldn't it? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Who is Mr. Fallon? 8 A: He was the marketing man in charge of 9 Therminol at that time, I believe. 1 0 Q: So that's why he indicates that the advice . 11 is apropos to how we should react to inquiries from 12 our heat transfer customers, correct? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. The letter, the memorandum is 1 5 excerpted from a letter Don Johnson sent to the 1 6 Pydraul field salesman. And that's Plaintiff's 1 7 Exhibit 58. Let me show that to you. And that is 18 dated February 4, 1970, from Norm Johnson to a 1 9 number of people, and you are not on that letter. 2 0 A: I guess I'm not. 2 1 Q: Okay. Take a moment and see whether or not 2 2 Mr. Fallon accurately describes what Mr. Johnson 23 wrote to the Pydraul salesmen. 24 A: Except for the paragraph that doesn't relate 2 5 to these products. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015013 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 14 6 1 Q : Right. 2 A: And the last paragraph. 3 Q: Right. Incidentally, the end of Mr. 4 Fallon's letter, memorandum, which is Exhibit 177, 5 concludes with, "If you have any questions, please 6 phone me", doesn't it? 7 A: Yes, it does. 8 Q: That's not a request that you made in your 9 February 9th letter that you sent out to the 1 0 customers, is it? . 11 A : No, it isn't. 12 Q : Why not? 13 A: I don't know. 14 Q: Well, if you wanted somebody to follow up 15 with you if they had any questions or concerns 1 6 concerning the letter, wouldn't that be a statement 17 that you would put in the letter? 1 8 MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. 1 9 A: You could. They could also do it without you 2 0 doing it. 2 1 MR. ROEDER : If you look at Mr. Johnson's 2 2 memorandum, Exhibit Number 58, he has that same 2 3 request, doesn't he? 24 A : Yes. 2 5 Q: "If you have any questions, please phone Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015014 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 14 7 me". That was ordinary, normal in Monsanto, when anyone wanted follow-up, that they could simply request it in a memorandum, right? MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. A: These were people who worked for them and they were just saying if you don't understand all of it, call me, or drop over to see me. Q: Well, would you agree with me that the February 9th letter that was sent out, so-called pollution letter, was an important document that . might not easily be understood on the first reading? A : Yes . Q: It would be the type of document that you could expect people might not understand and would have questions about? A: Could. MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. MR. ROEDER: Was it a corporate decision not to request that they call you with any questions they may have? A: I don't have any memory. Q: Is there anything that would refresh your A : No . Q: Let's look at Exhibit 177, sir. The fourth Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015015 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 14 8 paragraph of the quoted portion of it reads as follows: "We recognize it would be impossible to obtain names of individuals at each customer location. The use of the A/R customer list" -- is that accounts receivable customer list? A : Yes . Q: "Was the best list available. We realize that most of your contacts will not receive this letter. This is both good and bad. Unfortunately, we have no alternative" . Would you agree that it . was both good and bad that the majority of contacts would not receive the pollution letter? A: I don't recall. Q: Can you conceive of any reasons why it would be good that a majority of the contacts will not receive the letter? A: I don't recall. Q: Mr. Johnson -- who reported to you, correct? A: Yes, he did. Q: The memorandum that you received that incorporates his memorandum says, "We would prefer you not send additional copies", and he's referring to the pollution letter? A: Where are you? Q: The bottom of that paragraph, the last Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015016 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 14 9 paragraph on the first page. "One is enough", do you see that? A : Yes, I do. Q: Was that the policy of Monsanto, to only send one copy? A: I don't have any -- I don't have any recollection. Q: Did you yourself form a belief that one letter per customer was enough? A: I don't recall. Q: Well, would it be fair to say, sir, that in Monsanto when you wanted the word to get to the people who would need to know about it, that additional people were carbon copied on any internal correspondence? Let me rephrase the question. In Monsanto people were not shy about sending carbon copies of documents around, were they? A: No, they were not. MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. A: Well, they weren't, though. MR. ROEDER: If you look at Exhibit 177, there are four carbon copy recipients and it's sent to nine people, right? A: Yes. Q: So, in Monsanto they knew to get the word Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015017 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 15 0 across in an organization as big as Monsanto they would send copies to everybody who conceivably had an interest in the topic, isn't that correct? MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form, over-broad, calls for speculation. A: There was a good use of carbon copies to peop1e . MR. ROEDER: Well, let me ask the question this way, then. These exhibits we've been looking at, if you'll pardon my expression, they're littered with carbon copy recipients? MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. MR. ROEDER: Wasn't it the practice at Monsanto that if someone had an interest in a particular topic, it was clear that they would receive a copy of a memorandum that related to that topic? MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. A: Monsanto people used a lot of carbon copies to peopie. MR. ROEDER: That's an entirely different focus and philosophy that Monsanto used internally than the one they used with the pollution letter, isn't it? MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015018 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 15 1 MR. ROEDER: I didn't hear the answer. A: Say it again. (The requested portion of the record read by the reporter) . A: I don't remember any -- there are very few internal orders -- memos that only went to one person. Is that what you mean? MR. ROEDER: Right. Well, I'll state it a different way, too, just to be sure we're clear. Was one ever enough at Monsanto in terms of a memorandum? A : Yes . Q: On very infrequent occasions, right? A: I'll accept that. Q: Why was that? A: Why were there so many people -- which way - - why were - Q: I'll take that as a suggestion that you'd like me to make the question more precise. A: Thank you, sir. Q: At Monsanto -- let me ask the question this way. People were in different buildings, right? A : Yes. Q: So you may be in a different building than, say, Mr. Bergen is? I don't know if you were or Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015019 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 15 2 we ren't . A: I was in the s am e building. Q: You were in the same building? A : Same place . Q: You would be in a different building than Mr.Wheeler? A: Yes. Q: Were you in a different building than Dr. Richard? A : Ye s . Q: And Monsanto had how many different buildings in its corporate headquarters? A: Probably five. Five and then one -- the big one across the road. Six. I'm still remembering them. Six. And then the other research center. Let's say my best recollection is seven and then one across the road. Q: It was a big organization? A: Yes, sir. Q: So that when there was any memorandum of significance you wouldn't be sure if Dr. Wheeler would hear about it in the ordinary course unless he received a memorandum? A: That's correct. Q: And Dr. Wheeler or anyone else wouldn't be Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015020 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 15 3 sure you'd hear about it unless he sent a memorandum directly to you, correct? A : That ' s true . Q: So you knew that when you wanted to get the information across you would send copies to whoever you believed had an interest in the topic under discus sion? MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. A: You would try to send it to the people who you felt should know. . MR. ROEDER: Okay. Now, the pollution letter was only sent typically one copy per customer, right? A: I don't remember. Q: Well, you don't dispute that? A: I don't dispute that,' no. Q: Okay. And some of these customers are very large, weren't they, large organizations? A : Yes. Q: General Motors, a large organization? A : Yes . Q: In light of what you knew about how Monsanto operated, did you take any steps to ensure that the customers who received the letters or were sent the letters by you took the letters they received and Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015021 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 154 got it to the appropriate people? A : I don' t recall. Q: Okay. Is there anything that would refresh A: No, sir. Not so far. MR. CHAMBERS: Would you read that last question back? (The requested portion of the record read by the reporter) . MR. ROEDER: Is it fair to say, sir, that you would have expected that other large organizations would have the same ability to communicate or not communicate across departments as Monsanto would have? A: I don't know. Q: Did you think Monsanto had a good ability to communicate? A: I thought Monsanto over-communicated. MR. ROEDER: It's now about quarter of three, why don't we take a couple minutes. (Recess) . MR. ROEDER: Can you turn, sir, to Exhibit Number 6 0. A: Got it. Q: All right. For the record, Exhibit 60 is a Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015022 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 15 5 1 memo from N. Johnson to a number of people, and you 2 are listed at the very end of the series of carbon 3 copy recipients? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Did you examine this document in preparation 6 for your testimony? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: This is a memorandum Mr. Johnson wrote to 9 the salesmen, correct, which gave the salesmen a 1 0 list of questions and answers that they may be asked 11 by customers who received the Aroclor PCB letter? 12 A: He wrote to the salesmen in his group, plus 13 some out of the country that were related. 14 Q: All right. Mr. Johnson writes, 11 You can 15 give verbal answers, no answers should be given in 16 writing". Was that the policy of Monsanto with 17 respect to this pollution letter? 18 A: I don't recall. 1 9 Q: Mr. Johnson reported directly to you? 2 0 A : Yes, he did. 2 1 Q: Do you recall anyone expressing any 2 2 disagreement with that directive? 23 A: I don't recall, no. 24 Q: And all the people, the salesmen from P. 2 5 Kratzka on down to R. Giles, did they all report to Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (,314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015023 15 6 1 Mr. Johnson? 2 A : No . 3 Q: Which ones reported to Johnson? 4 A: Everybody except for the two in Melbourne, 5 Au s t ra1ia. 6 Q: That's everybody on the right-hand side - 7 the left-hand side, Kratzka, Clay, Davidson, Damian, 8 Fague, Garcia, Leila, Irwin, Puhlman and Roder, 9 R-o-d-e-r, right? 1 0 A: I would assume so. 11 Q: All right. Remember earlier I asked if it 12 was the policy that Monsanto would answer questions 13 from St. Louis and you didn't recall. Do you recall 14 that testimony? 15 A: Yes, I did. 1 6 Q: Now, if you look at the second sentence, 17 third sentence of the first paragraph, it reads, "If 1 8 the customer asks a question you can't answer or if 19 he wants an answer in writing, send his questions to 2 0 me and we will answer from here". Do you see that? 2 1 A: Yes, I do . 2 2 Q: Does that refresh your recollection that the 2 3 policy was to send written responses to customers' 24 questions from St. Louis? 2 5 A: I don't recall the letter, so -- no. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015024 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 157 Q : But , I mean, about the policy. A : No . If I don 't recall the letter, I can't get to the policy. Q: In the next line Mr. Johnson says "We want to avoid any situation where a customer wants to return fluid". And then it's underlined later. "We don't want to take fluid back. Sell him the replacement". Is that consistent with your policy? A: I don't remember. Q: Do you remember objecting to it? . A : No, I don 1 t . Q: On the second page of the document it says, "We have no replacement products for Aroclor 1254 and Aroclor 1260. We will continue to make these products. However, customers will have to use their own judgment on continued use" . Do you see that? A : Yes, I do. Q: Is that statement accurate? A: Seems to -- where's the letter? Q: That would be Exhibit 22. A: To my knowledge, it was true. Q: That you had no replacement products, is that correct ? A: Yes. The reason I'm saying that is I'm talking about products which could be sold at that Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015025 ____________________________________________________________________________________ __________ 158 1 time to the customer, which had been through enough 2 testing and reformulation to be ready. 3 Q: Well, this statement that we have no 4 replacement products for Aroclor 1254 and Aroclor 5 1260 is inconsistent, is it not, sir, with the 6 statement in your February 9th letter that says we 7 have developed and are now testing new formulations 8 to replace the Aroclor 1254 and 1260 components in 9 our Pydraul products? 10 A : No . 11 MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. 12 A: No, it's not inconsistent. 13 MR. ROEDER : You say it's not inconsistent 14 because they may have been developed, but they 15 weren't ready for sale? 16 A : No . 1 7 MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. 18 MR. ROEDER: How were they consistent? 1 9 A: I interpret this as talking about Aroclor 2 0 1254 and Aroclor 1260 as products. Which is quite 2 1 different than a Pydraul using Aroclor 1254 as a 2 2 component. 23 Q: So you see no inconsistency with the 24 statement that says we have developed and are 2 5 testing new formulations to replace the Aroclor 1254 Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri ' (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015026 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 15 9 and 1260 components in our Pydraul products? A: That is correct. Q: Now, the pydrauls did not get Aroclor 1254 or 1260, isn't that correct? MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. A: Yes, but I don't know if there were industrial customers for Aroclors per se. Q: Right. So the only customers you knew for Aroclors per se, 1254 and 1260, were the dielectric uses, right ? . A: I don't know whether -- I know there were some industrial customers for Aroclors, I don't recall whether any of those were 1254 and 1260. Q: Do you know whether it was true that as of February 9, 1970 Monsanto had actually developed new formulations to replace the Aroclor 1254 and 1260 component s ? MR. CHAMBERS: Objection, asked and answered. A: I don't recall. MR. ROEDER: And do you know whether or not it was true as of 1970, in February, whether any of the Pydraul salesmen sold Aroclor 1254 or Aroclor 12 6 0? A: I don't recall. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015027 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q: Mr. Johnson sold Pydrauls, that was his area, correct? A: He sold industrial fluids, and I believe that the Aroclor sales were in that group. The Aroclor non-die1ectric sales. Q: Mr. Johnson says "We can't afford to lose one dollar of business" . Do you see that in his memorandum? A: I do see it. Q: Do you agree with that? A : I don 1t recall . . Q: Do you recall disagreeing with it? A: I don't recall. Q: Now, if you'll look, sir, at the next page of this exhibit, Exhibit Number 60, as part of the possible customer questions on PCBs it lists in detail the newspaper articles relating to the PCB problem, doesn't it? A: Lists a number of articles, yes. Q: Okay. San Francisco Chronicle, San Francisco Examiner, Hartford Times, correct? A : Yes. Q: And, again, since this information was available to Mr. Johnson on February 16, 1970, do you see any reason why you couldn't have put this 16 0 Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015028 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 16 1 particular -- identify these particular articles in your letter? A: I see no reason it couldn't have been done. Q: Did you approve the answers to the questions that Mr. Johnson sent out to the salesmen? A: I don't remember. Q: Do you know if prior drafts were distributed to you? A: I don't know. Q: Would it have been a practice of Mr. Johnson- to distribute those? A: Idon'tknow. Q: Can you identify the writing on the first page of this document? A: Ibelieve that's Howard Bergen's. Q: Now, as of this time, the beginning of 1970, were you personally -- would this have been a difficult time for you personally, a difficult professional period? This is a real challenge, to try to manage a product line that seems to be potentially going out of business while you introduce new products to fill the products you were withdrawing from the market. A: It was challenging, yes. Q: That's a good word for it. You had never Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015029 162 1 experienced anything like that before, had you? 2 A: I had experienced a lot of challenges, but 3 not this specific kind of one. 4 Q: Was there anyone at Monsanto who had 5 experienced that type of challenge that you had 6 known of or discussed this with? 7 A: I don't recall of this kind of an 8 environmental problem coming up to that time. 9 Q: Were you concerned that this would affect 10 your own personal situation, if you were in charge 11 of sales of something that looked like it could go 12 right down the tubes? 13 A : No . 14 Q: I'd like to show you what's been marked as 15 Exhibit Number 5. It should be early on in this 16 booklet. Exhibit 5 is a functional fluids total 17 marketing plan for 1970. You would have been 18 involved in preparing this document, wouldn't you? 19 A: I assume so. 2 0 Q: You're listed as one of the distributees on 2 1 the first page, correct? 2 2 A : Yes . 2 3 Q: Now, earlier we had discussed, you know, the 2 4 profit margin on this product. Would you turn to 2 5 page 1 of the document, TRAN 3763. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015030 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 16 3 A : Yes. Q: And does that reflect a -- in your mind, an attractive gross profit as a percentage of sales? A: Yes, it does . Q: For example, in 1969 the estimated gross profit was 42 and a half percent on the functional fluids that Monsanto sold, is that correct? A: That's correct. Q: And you were projecting a 41 percent profit in 1970, correct? A: That's what it says. Q: During this time period, did you begin to determine or decide by yourself whether you wanted to continue in the functional fluids area? A: Never thought about it. Q: Never thought about it? A: No. Q: Were you the person or one of the people who would decide what prices to charge for fluids in the functional fluids group? A : Yes, I was. Q: For example, on page 27 of the document where it says "Consider need to increase the price of Aroclor", under "When", "Immediately", you are listed as someone who had that responsibility, is Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015031 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 16 4 that correct? A: That's correct. Q: Did the price of Aroclors go up? A: I can't put it in the context of this timing, but, yes, the price of Aroclors did go up sometime when I was there. Q: You approved the price increases? A : Yes . Q: Did the costs go up? A: I don't recall. . Q: Specifically, the prices that Monsanto would charge to the dielectric users went up, correct? A: That's what I'm thinking about, yes. And that's what this refers to. Q: If you look on page 29, you were also supposed to immediately consider the possibility of raising the price of transformer - A: Yes. Q: Did you do so to maintain your profit margins ? A: I don't recall. Q: That would have been one of the effects of raising prices, wouldn't it? MR. CHAMBERS: Objection, calls for speculation. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015032 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 16 5 A: It could have been. MR. ROEDER : Now, did you give any consideration at this time to completely phasing out chlorinated biphenyls from the functional fluids group ? A: I don't remember. Q: Anything that would refresh your A : No . ( Plaintiff's Exhibit 178 . marked for identification). MR. ROEDER: Exhibit 178, sir, is a letter that you signed, dated February 18, 1970, number TRAN 4300 and 4301. That's your signature, correct? A: Yes, it is. Q: If you want, you can take a moment to review that in comparison to - A: The other one? Q : Yes. A: I.don't need to. Q: You know what's different about it? A : Yes , I do . Q: And that's only the last paragraph on the second page? A: That's correct. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015033 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 16 6 Q: Exhibit 178 was directed to the dielectric customers, correct? A: Yes, it was. Q: Now, there's a decision made, wasn't there, not to notify purchasers of the equipment that your customers manufactured of the potential environmental contamination you described in your letter, correct? A: That's what this says. Q: Who made that decision? . A: I don't know. Q: Would you have been a part of that decision? A: Probably. Q: You also recommended that your customers, your dielectric fluid customers notify the equipment users of this problem, do you see that? A : I do . Q: Why was that recommendation made? A : I don't know. Q: Do you recall participating in that decision? A: No, I don't recall it. Q: Were you concerned about liability at this point, sir? A: I don't know. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015034 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 16 7 Q: Would this letter have been approved by legal? A : Yes. Q: In fact, all letters that were going out to customers in general were approved by legal at this time, isn't that correct? A: I don't know that. But I would certainly say the key ones were -- may have been. Q: This would be one of the key ones? A: Yes . . Q: Because this has the same information as Exhibit 22, the questions that I asked you with respect to Exhibit 22 and the answers you gave would be the same concerning this letter? A: Yes, they would. (Discussion off the record) . ( Plaintiff's Exhibit 179 marked for identification). MR. ROEDER : Exhibit 179 is a letter, it's undated, but it bears Bates numbers TNGS 2626 through 2633. Now, this is a modification of the document, your letter, sir, is it not, for the plasticizers? A: It appears to be. Q: Who is W. E. Schalk, S-c-h-a-l-k? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015035 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 16 8 1 A: He was my counterpart in plasticizers. 2 Q: Did you approve this document? 3 A: I have no recollection. 4 Q: Did you receive copies of it when it was 5 sent out ? 6 A: I have no recollection. 7 Q: In fact, though, is it fair to say that this 8 repeats almost word-for-word your letter dated 9 February 9th? 1 0 A: Yes, except for it's aimed at the 11 plasticizer products rather than the fluids 12 product s . 13 Q: So, for example, number one on the first 14 page references Aroclor 5060, 5442 and 5460 as 15 opposed to the fluids products, correct? 16 A: Yes. 1 7 Q: Other than that, it's the same letter? 1 8 A : Yes . 1 9 Q: Does this reflect Monsanto's desire to treat 2 0 plasticizers similarly in terms of how they would 2 1 notify the customer as they did with respect to PCBs 2 2 that were in the functional fluids group that you 2 3 s upervis ed? 24 MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form of the ' 2 5 que s tion. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015036 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 16 9 MR. ROEDER: Let me rephrase it. The same letter goes out to the plasticizer customers as goes out to your customers, correct? A : Correct . Q: Is this part of a similar policy or consistent policy Monsanto had with respect to notifying customers who used products that contained PCBs? A: I don't recall. ( Plaintiff's Exhibit 180 marked for identification). MR. ROEDER: Exhibit 180 is a memorandum from you to Norm Johnson, dated March 10, 1970, regarding Colorado Interstate Gas, TNGS 8884. It's your memorandum and your signature, correct? A: It's my signature, yes. Q: And this references a telephone call you received from an employee of Colorado Interstate Gas ? A: Yes, sir. Q: Did you receive many phone calls like this? A: My recollection is very few. Very few. Q: Did Mr. O.K. Sharp indicate that he was unclear as to what the PCB letter you had sent meant for his company? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015037 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 170 A: What I wrote of the conversation apparently is that he wanted to know what it meant to them. Q: And you explained it further? A: Yes, seems like it. Q: Did you follow up, yourself, with any other interstate gas transmission companies? A: No, not that I recall. Q: You know that Tennessee Gas is an interstate gas transmission company? A : Yes I do . Q: You never followed up in any way with Tennessee Gas? A: Not that I recall. Q: Did you ever speak with anyone at Tennessee Gas ? A: Not that I recall. ( Plaintiff's Exhibit 181 marked for identification). MR. ROEDER: Exhibit 181, sir, is a letter from you to Mr. Clifford, who was director of purchases for Buick Motor Division, General Motors Corporation. Now, you said to Mr. Clifford in the first sentence of your letter you hope that you, quote, clarify any uncertainties relating to your February 9th letter, correct? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015038 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 171 A: That's what it says, yes, sir. Q: Okay. Did you believe as of March 1 97 0 that there were uncertainties relating to your February 9th letter? A: I don't recall. Q: But that's what you indicated to Mr. Clifford, right? A: This indicates that he thought there were uncertainties . Q: In your letter, in the third paragraph didn't you represent to Mr. Clifford that there is, quote, no problem with the product you are using, close quote, and that was Pydraul 312? A: This is a bad -- let me take a look. Q: It's the best copy I've got. A: Give me a minute, though. Whereabouts is this? Q: In the middle - A: In the middle paragraph. Yes, it does say that. Q: That wasn't true then, ultimately, was it? A: At that time it was. Q: You thought it was? A: I thought it was. Q: But it turned out to not be true? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015039 17 2 1 A: That's correct. 2 Q: Did you ever confirm to Mr. Clifford that 3 the statement was not correct? 4 A: I don't recall. 5 ( Plaintiff's Exhibit 182 6 marked for identification). 7 MR. ROEDER : Before we go too far from 8 Exhibit 181, is there anything that would refresh 9 your recollection as to whether you confirmed to Mr. 1 0 Clifford that the statement you had in your letter . 11 was not correct? 1 2 A: No, sir. 13 Q: Exhibit 182, sir, is a memorandum from W.B. 14 Papageorge to a number of people, including you, and 15 it attaches a copy of a rough draft of a plan for 16 managing the PCB problem, dated March 30, 1970. The 1 7 production numbers are TNGS 9643 through TNGS 9655. 18 This is a memorandum that you received, isn't it? 19 A: I'm on the list. 2 0 Q: What was the PCB problem that Mr. Papageorge 2 1 was describing? 2 2 A : I don't know. 2 3 Q: You don't know if it related to the 24 potential inability to sell the product because of 2 5 its environmental problems? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015040 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 173 A : I don't know. Q: Let's go to the second page. Mr. Papageorge defines the problem there, doesn't he? A : Yes. Q: And that, in fact, what I just described describes how Mr. Papageorge described the problem, correct? A: He doesn't say what you said. Q: Well, he says the presence of materials identified as polychlorinated biphenyls in marine . environments was first noted by Professors Widmark and Jensen, correct? A: Right. Q: "Since then and with increasing frequency, other investigators have identified PCB in marine and animal life. Increasing evidence has been noted that indicates PCB is ubiquitously present in the environment and is resulting in damage to the ecological system." That's the problem, right? A : That ' s t rue . Q: So that's what you understood the problem with PCBs to be as of that date? A: I will accept that. Q: Now, the strategy, this is where I'm trying to get back to where we discussed a little earlier. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015041 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 174 We said it was a challenge. You, as a sales director, you had to deal with a product which was coining under environmental criticism, trying to introduce new products, and here Mr. Papageorge is indicating a basic strategy. Do you agree with the strategy as he relates it in this document? A: Do I today? Q : Did you then? A: I don't recall. Q: Okay. Let me see if I can short-circuit . it. Mr. Papageorge says Monsanto, and I'm reading from the bottom of Roman Numeral 2, must not take premature action which would compromise its responsibilities to its customers, shareholders or employees. Do you see that? A: You're putting two parts of the sentence together. Q: Sure, but that's the question I'm asking. It indicates Monsanto should not take premature action which could compromise its responsibilities to its customers, shareholders or employees? A: The latter part, it does say that. Q: Now, what responsibilities did Monsanto have to its customers in 1970? A: Well, I don't recall. I don't know how to Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015042 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 175 answer. I'm not -- I don't remember this meeting, even . Q: Well, whether you remember or not, I'm just trying to get a sense of what you thought you had as a responsibility to your customers. A: Well, I believe the first part of what he said here, that we should respond in a responsible manner. Q: I appreciate that, but it's not answering my question. A: Give me an example of what you want to know. Q: I'm just trying to find out -- my question is pretty open-ended. Could you repeat it? (The requested portion of the record read by the reporter) . MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. MR. ROEDER : Can you answer the question? A: In what area? I mean, help me a little bit. Q : I'm going - A: We had a responsibility to have products be there on time, pricing them properly. I mean, I don't -- there's a whole world there. Q: That's not what he's talking about here, though, is he? A: I don't know what he's talking about here. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015043 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 17 6 Q: Okay. Did you believe you had a responsibility to your customers to give them all the information they would need to know to deal with the environmental problem, as you understood it? A: I don't recall what -- I don't recall at that time. Q: Okay. Well, let's continue on to Roman Numeral 3, the objectives as outlined in the basic strategy plan for managing the PCB problem that Mr. Papageorge prepared. The overall objective, he - writes, of this plan is to manage the PCB pollution problem to prevent it from adversely affecting the established return on investment objectives of the functional fluids and plasticizers groups, while maintaining the corporate image of Monsanto as a responsible and respected member of industry world-wide. That's the objective? A: That's what he says, yes. Q: Did you agree with that objective? A: I don't know. Q: Do you know if you disagreed with it? A : I don't know. Q: Was it part of your objective to prevent the PCB pollution problem from adversely affecting Monsanto's established return on investment Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015044 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 177 objectives for the functional fluids group? A: I don't recall. Q: And we looked at the marketing plan a couple of minutes ago, remember? A : Right. Q: And you were projecting a 41 percent gross profit in 1970, correct? A: That's correct. Q: And this document was prepared on March 30, 19 7 0, correct ? . A : Right. Q: Did you believe that would be a difficult objective to realize, given the PCB problem that Mr. Papageorge identifies here? A: I don't recall. Q: Would anything refresh your recollection? A: No, sir. A different brain. Q: A different brain. How did you believe in 1970 a customer would discharge PCBs into the environment? What was in your scheme or understanding of how that could happen? A: How could they be discharged in the environment? Q: Yes. You were principally concerned with waterways, weren't you? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015045 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 17 8 1 A: Right. Some air. 2 Q: Waterways is the only thing that was 3 identified - 4 A: You're asking me how were they discharged? 5 Q: Yes. In your letter of February 9, 1970 the 6 only area of discharge that you identify is 7 waterways, correct? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: Is it fair to say that was the principal 1 0 focus of your concern? . 11 A: I would assume that. 12 Q: Okay. If it were anything else, you would 13 have put it in the letter? 14 A: I would assume that. 15 Q: So as you conceived the problem, if a 16 customer used it in a manufacturing operation, 17 Monsanto saw it as a problem of discharge in the 18 waterways or else it could be included -- a PCB 1 9 containing material could be included in a product a 2 0 customer would manufacture, right? 2 1 A: I don't know how Monsanto saw it, but I 2 2 believe that's how I did. 2 3 ( Plaintiff's Exhibit 183 & 184 24 marked for identification). 2 5 MR. ROEDER: In fact, 183 ought to be looked at Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015046 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 17 9 in the context of 184. MR. CHAMBERS: For the record, I can't find Exhibit 183, which has production number TRAN 088187 on the list of exhibits that was furnished in connection with the case management order. MR. ROEDER: I'll tell you what - MR. CHAMBERS: I won't deny that it's not on there, I can't find it. MR. ROEDER: How about, is 8678, TNGS 8678? MR. CHAMBERS: It sure is. . MR. ROEDER: They're really the same document. I mean, if you want - MR. CHAMBERS: That's fine. I don't think there is any need to do that. MR. ROEDER: If you wanted to confirm it. MR. CHAMBERS: I agree, that's fine. I just wanted to note that in light of the order that's in place . MR. ROEDER: Well, then, tell you what, why don't we substitute it. I think it's the same document, it just has a different production number, that's what Mr. Chambers is talking about. A : Okay . Q: The same thing, right, that you were just looking at ? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015047 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 18 0 A: I think so, yes. Q: For the record, let's be sure we've got it identified. Exhibit 183 is TNGS 8 678 and Exhibit 184 is TRAN 88185. Exhibit 184, sir, really predates 183 and it's dated April 13, 1970. It was to you, among others, and relates to an additional paragraph to be added to a label, right? A : Yes, it doe s. Q: All right. And Exhibit 183 is your response to Mr. Papageorge on the issue, correct? A: Yes. Q: Unfortunately, I've got them out of sequence in t erms of - A: That's okay. I'm with you. Q: And you were in agreement with the proposed label changes relating to electrical grade and non-electrical grade Aroclors, but you did not want to see, as you indicate in paragraph one, that label adapted to the Pydraul line, right? A: That's what that says. Q: Why was that? A: I don't recall. Q: Your memorandum states, does it not, "I think this is a reasonable approach since we are going through a reformulation of all of our products Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015048 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 18 1 which over a period of time will eliminate the necessity for this paragraph"? A: Yes, it does. Q: Was this suggestion adopted? A: I don't know. Q: You don't know if the Pydraul products did not have the paragraph that the electrical grade and non-e1ectrica1 grade Aroclors with PCBs had? A : I don't know. ( Plaintiff's Exhibit 185 . marked for identification). (See confidential transcript). Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015049 18 3 1 ( Plaintiff's Exhibit 186 2 marked for identification). 3 A : Okay. 4 Q: Exhibit 186, sir, is a memorandum from you 5 to John Mason, dated May 4, 1970, production number 6 TNGS 8677. This relates, sir, to non - e1ectrica 1 7 Aroclors, correct? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: What does that definition include? 10 A: It would be Aroclors sold to non-e1ectrica 1 . 11 users . 12 Q: So it would be the product that was entitled 13 Aroc1or ? 14 A: Yes. Not in a -- not compounded with 15 something else formulated. 1 6 Q: It wouldn't include Pydrauls, for example? 1 7 A: That's correct. 1 8 Q: Now, with respect to the decision here, it 1 9 says "With the exception of competitors, all 2 0 customers will be notified by personal contact or 2 1 letter by May 15 that we will no longer sell 2 2 non-electrical Aroclor after July 31, 1970", that 2 3 was the policy then with respect to customers of the 24 Aroclor product? 2 5 A: That they would be -- well, it says what it Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015050 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 says, yes. Q: I just wanted to confirm again that this relates to the Aroclor product? A: Correct. ( Plaintiff's Exhibit 187 marked for identification) . (See confidential transcript). Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 18 4 WATER PCB-SD0000015051 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 18 7 (Discussion off the record). ( Plaintiff's Exhibit 188 marked for identification) . MR. ROEDER : Exhibit 188, sir, is a memorandum from you to J. Mason, dated May 5, 1970. This is another exhibit, Mr. Chambers, if you can determine whether something has been redacted. Look at the top. MR. CHAMBERS: Where? MR. ROEDER: At the top. Under "J. Mason", it looks like there's about an inch - MR. CHAMBERS: Just from the face of it, I'd be shocked if there's a redaction there, because that just looks like part of the way the memo is put together, but I'll check and see. MR. ROEDER: Well, in general, there seems to be some kind of prefatory comments. MR. CHAMBERS: Where do you see that? MR. ROEDER: Right here. I don't know, it looks like there's a space or something. MR. CHAMBERS: I see the space, but I don't see - MR. ROEDER: As I look at other memoranda, you generally have something on there. But if there's not, there's not. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015052 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 18 8 A : Okay. MR. ROEDER : Now, this is a memorandum to Mr. Mason, who is directly under Mr. Minckler? A : Yes . Q: What was the purpose of this memorandum? A: I don't recall. Q: Did Mr. Mason or Mr. Minckler periodically request information concerning where you were on the product reformulation? A: I believe we had -- I had one other time . when I wrote him, and I don't know -- but that was about the -- that was about non-e1ectrica1 Aroclors. So I don't know. Q: Mr. Mason or Mr. Minckler, were they satisfied with the progress that was being made? A: I don't know. Q: You never heard anything to the contrary? A: Not that I remember. No. No, I did not. Q: As a follow-up, reviewing Exhibit 188 does not refresh your recollection concerning the - - A: No, it doesn't. ( Plaintiff's Exhibit 189 marked for identification). MR. ROEDER: For the record, Exhibit 189 is Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (,314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015053 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 18 9 a letter from Mr. Ted Roback, Federal Pacific Electric Company, dated March 11, 1970, and has production numbers TNGS 2661 and TNGS 2662, and there's a note to the blind carbon copies for this document, sir, that says this letter was sent to all transformer customers, correct? A: Yes, sir. Q: It was signed by you? A: Yes, it was. Q: So letters in this form were sent to all of of Monsanto's transformer customers? A: I would say that's true, yes. Q: With respect to these customers, transformer customers, Monsanto offered a program for proper disposal of PCB materials, correct? A : Yes. Q: These are the dielectric customers? A: It just says transformer. Q: You don't know if it also included capacitors? A: I don't know. Q: Did you offer that program to other PCB customers? A : I don't know. Q: So, as you sit here today, you don't know Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015054 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 19 0 1 whether you offered that program for proper disposal 2 of PCB materials to users of Pydraul that had PCBs 3 in them? 4 A: No, I don't. 5 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 190 6 marked for identification). 7 MR. ROEDER: Plaintiffs 190, sir, is a 8 memorandum from Mr. Papageorge to Mr. Sido? 9 A: Yes. 1 0 Q: How do you pronounce it, Sido? Dated May 11 27, 1970, and you received a carbon copy, correct? 12 A: Yes, I did. 13 Q: All right. TRAN 88210 is the production 14 number. Who was Mr. Sido? 15 A: He was the labeling specialist. 1 6 Q: He was the guy who made sure that the labels 1 7 were properly - 1 8 A: He was the one who would do the actual 1 9 putting of them together and writing them out. 2 0 Q: Set them up so that they could be printed? 2 1 A: I don't know if he actually did it, but he 2 2 would -- yes, he would be the person that would be 2 3 the focal point to getting the actual label done. 24 Q: So if you wanted a label change, Sido was 2 5 the guy you called? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015055 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 l'l 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 19 1 A : Yes . Q: Now, Mr. Papageorge states in the third paragraph, "Pydraul labels will not be altered since reformulations will be made". Correct? A: That's correct. Q: That means, does it not, that the paragraph we saw earlier that Phocion Park had suggested was not added to the Pydraul labels, correct? MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. A: I believe that, yes. Q: Because since the pydrauls were going to be reformulated, there would be no reason to add the additional language relating to PCBs, correct? A: I believe that's what I said previously to Papageorge. Q: And this memorandum from Mr. Papageorge includes on the labels the following -- labels that would be changed to, "Contact Monsanto representative regarding disposal", correct? A: That's correct. Q: But that was not a change that would have been made to the Pydraul labels, since they would not be altered? A: Certainly not -- this doesn't say include that on Pydraul. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015056 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q: So it's your understanding that Pydraul labels stayed the same, they didn't get the paragraph that related to PCBs and they didn't get the sentence that said contact Monsanto representative regarding disposal? A: That's what this says. ( Plaintiff's Exhibit 191 marked for identification). MR. CHAMBERS: We note that this is another exhibit that's marked confidential. (See confidential transcript). 19 2 Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015057 19 5 1 (Discussion off the record) . 2 MR. ROEDER: Exhibit 22, which is your 3 February 9, 1970 letter, states that PCBs with a 4 chlorine content of less than 54 percent have not 5 been found in the environment and appear to present 6 no potential problem to the environment. 7 A: Yes, it does. 8 9 10 Q: As of May 27, 1970, just three months later is it fair to say that there has now been a shift and that the only Aroclors that are considered 11 12 biodegradable are Aroclor 1221 and the fractionally distilled Aroclor 1242? 13 MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. 14 A: It definitely says those are the only ones. 15 It indicates to me that there's been more data 16 deve1oped. 17 Q: That's what I mean. So between the time - 18 A: Not a shift in policy or anything, but more 19 20 data developed. Q: So you got more data that would suggest that 21 22 the information that was communicated in paragraph two of the February 9th letter now is incorrect? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: Do you know if any correction was sent out 25 with respect to this February 9th letter? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015058 19 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 A: I don't know. Q: You didn't recommend one, though? A: I don't remember. Q: Now, there had been documents that have been produced in this case that refer to "close the loop" . And Mr. Papageorge defines it here. He defines it as, "The expression close the loop refers to our program of educating the customer regarding the control and disposal of PCBs and providing a service for the return of contaminated Aroclors for. recovery or eventual high temperature incineration and stack gas scrubbing", do you see that? 13 14 15 16 17 18 A : Yes. Q: Is that how you understood the term close the loop? A: I don't recall. Q: You don't recall disagreeing with Mr. Papageorge's statement on that, do you? 19 20 21 22 .A: No, I do not. Q: Sir, it's true, isn't it, that the service of -- the providing of a service for the return of contaminated Aroclors for recovery did not apply to 23 24 pydrauls, correct? A: At the time of that letter that I sent to 25 the transformer - Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015059 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 19 7 Q: I'm talking about Pydrauls. A: Yes. I'm saying, isn't that where -- I'm trying to remember where it was that -- I don't know, I guess. I don't know. Q: The reason I asked the question that way is because we just saw the memorandum regarding the 1abe1ing. A : Right. Q: Which doesn't even suggest that the Pydraul users ought to contact their Monsanto represent atj regarding return of the product, correct? MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. A: That's correct. MR. ROEDER: Because they were going to be reformulated and wouldn't have PCBs, right? A: Yes. But I don't remember the date of that. I just don't remember. Q: It was 190, Plaintiff's Exhibit 190. A: Oh, same day. Okay. Q: Instantaneous. So, close the loop, if it requires the providing of a service for the return of contaminated Aroclors, doesn't even relate to pydrauls, correct? A: I don't know whether they would have done that for Pydraul customers or not. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015060 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 198 1 Q: Okay. But if this is correct and there is 2 no suggestion that Pydraul customers would return 3 the product to Monsanto, and the close the loop 4 relates to the return of contaminated Aroclors for 5 recovery, then that doesn't relate to pydrauls, 6 right ? 1 A: They're two separate subjects. 8 Q: That's what I mean. 9 A: They're two separate subjects, so I don't 10 know how to -- I mean, the fact that the label 11 12 wasn't going to change does not necessarily say that they wouldn't go to Pydraul customers. 13 Q: Well, but if you're going to close the loop, 14 you're going to tell the customers as part of 15 closing the loop that if you have any contaminated 16 product, give it back to us and we'll process it for 17 whatever fee we charge, correct? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: Okay. And that's not being said to the 20 Pydraul customers, right? 21 A: I don't know that. 22 Q: Well, certainly, that label is not being - 23 that message is not communicated on the labeling? 24 A: That is correct. 25 Q : Okay. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015061 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 a 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ( Plaintiff's Exhibit 192 19 9 marked for identification). MR. ROEDER : Sir, Exhibit 192 - A : Okay . Q: Exhibit 192, sir, is another letter you signed to customers? A: Yes, it is. Q: And it relates to a letter dated February 27, 1970? A: That must be the wrong date. Wasn't it the -- wasn't it the February 8th or something like that? I don't understand where this date came from. Q: Wasn't that the date of your letter to the plasticizers? A: Oh, that I don't know. I was referring to my letters. It's not dated. Found it, it's not dated. Q : All right. A: I would not have written the plasticizer customers. . Q: My notes say see 3/2/70 memo. . (Discussion off the record). MR. ROEDER: You're not sure that the date is correct ? A: I think it's -- I think it's incorrect. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015062 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 11 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 200 Q: Again, this letter makes reference to being a concerned and responsible member of the community, "We've come to a decision to discontinue the sale of PCB-containing products for industrial applications effective August 30, 1970". A : Yes, sir. Q: That was the policy of Monsanto? A: That was the decision made, to withdraw from the Aroclor product sales. Q: Did you disagree with that decision? A: I'm sure I did not. Q: Do you know what particular document this refers to, what particular product? A: What particular products? Q: Right. A: It's the Aroclor products that are non-electrical and are not in the formulations. Q: The straight Aroclor? A : Yes . Q: So, again, this would only have gone to the Aroclor users? A: That's my assumption. ( Plaintiff's Exhibit 193 marked for identification). MR. CHAMBERS: This is a confidential Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015063 1 exhibit, too. 2 (See confidential transcript) . 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 .Gore & Perry Reporting Co St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 201 WATER PCB-SD0000015064 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ( Plaintiff's Exhibit 194 206 marked for identification). MR. ROEDER: For the record. Exhibit 194 is a letter dated July 9, 1970 from you to Mr. Peer Lorentsen, president of Chem-Trend, Incorporated, and the production numbers are TNGS 6823 to TNGS 6824. This letter, sir, allows you to thank Mr. Lorentsen for his letter and you then welcome the opportunity to clarify the partial confusion that apparently Mr. Lorentsen had, do you see that? . A : I see that. Q: It says "Because there are a wide range of applications for these products, some of our actions have led to partial confusion, and I welcome the opportunity to clarify them for you". A: Yes, sir. Q: Was there partial confusion concerning your actions with respect to the wide range of applications for PCB-containing materials? MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form, it calls for speculation. MR. ROEDER: You say there is, right? A: I know what the letter says. Q: That's what the letter says, right? A: The letter would have been what I believed Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015065 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 20 7 at the time, yes. Q: Did you believe that at the time? A: I must have or I wouldn't have written it. Q: I will confess to have been perhaps more than partially confused, and I think, frankly, your deposition testimony has helped straighten me out, and I want to see whether I've got this confusion taken care of . A: Okay . Q: Unconfused, as it were. You got Pydrauls and the things you did with respect to pydrauls only related to pydrauls, correct, so if there were letters to customers that reference Pydrauls they would go to the Pydraul customers? A: The first letters went to all -- the very first letter went to all PCB users. Q: That would be the February 9th letter? A: Yes, other than the dielectrics. Q: The February 18th letter went only to the dielectric users? A: That's correct. Q: That was capacitors, transformers? A: That's right. Q: People who made those products, right? A: That's right . Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015066 208 1 Q: The letters that related to plasticizers 2 only went to the plasticizer users of Aroclor, 3 correct? 4 A: I don't know that. That one letter did. 5 Q: The one letter we saw that - 6 A: Yes. I think some -- I think some Aroclors 7 might have been used in plasticizer formulations, 8 and I don't know what they did with those. 9 Q: Anyway, if it were a letter that related to 10 11 Aroclor products, that would have gone to customers who bought products that had the same Aroclor? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And if there were products or letters that 14 went out to Therminol customers, only customers of 15 the brand name Therminol would have got those 16 letters? 17 A: Yes. But I don't recall any. 18 Q: Because you withdrew PCBs from Therminol 19 applications pretty early on, correct? I think we 20 saw that. 21 A: That was the higher Aroclor, right? I don't 22 know when we -- I don't remember. I'm getting 23 confused. I don't remember the -- you mean 24 reformulation or what? 25 Q: What I'm trying to establish is that when Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015067 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 209 -- that at Monsanto, when notification went out to customers, it went out based upon -- other than the first letter that you discussed, the February 9th letter, subsequent letters went out based upon the product purchased, so any notifications relating to Aroclors went to the people that you had in your records who purchased Aroclors? A : That 1 s correct . Q: And - A: The first one went to everyone who purchased, any kind of Arochlor, either formulated or otherwise, so it's the same principle, is what I'm t rying to say. Q: Now I'm using Aroclors more narrowly. A: I understand that. I used it broadly in the general letter. Q: In that last answer -- I think you did. Just so we're clear, you can use the term Aroclor to refer to a broad range of any of these products that have the PCB-containing product in them? A: That's correct. Q: Or else you can you use it narrowly and precisely to say if a customer purchased a product that was Aroclor 1254, that was a precise product that Monsanto manufactured and sold with the label Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015068 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that said Aroclor 1254, correct? 2 10 A: That's correct. Q: So when there are notifications that go to the customer regarding Aroclors after the February 9th letter that you signed, those only went to the customer who bought the product named Aroclor? A: I believe that, yes. Q: And so it was very precisely defined in Monsanto as to what customers would get what letter, depending upon the product they purchased, correct? A: I would think so. You know, I really don't recal1, but - Q: But that's your understanding of how the process worked? A: Yes, it was. Q: Now, do you think that that process could have led to the partial confusion that Mr. Lorentsen was discussing? A: I don't know. MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the form. A: I just don't know. MR. ROEDER : You don't recall? A: No . Q: Other than what this letter said - - let's continue on in the letter. You write, "The most Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015069 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 11 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 logical approach to this is to follow the sequence 2 11 of your questions. 1. The June 1 letter was sent to all customers of our plasticizer marketing group and stated that the sale of Aroclors 1232 through 1262 for plasticizer and modifier application will be discontinued August 30, 1970". So you're telling Mr. Lorentsen with respect to the June 1 letter that as for customers of, number one, of your plasticizer marketing group, and it relates to the sale of Aroclors 1232 to 1262, and that would be a product _ so named, correct? A: Yes, sir. Q: For plasticizer and modifier applications, those would be for particular applications, then, right ? A: Yes. Q: And they will be discontinued August 30, 1970. So you were using that precisely in this letter to him? A: Yes. Q: "The June 11 letter", I'm continuing in your letter, "related to a separate and distinct marketplace, that of industrial applications, which encompasses your usage". So there would be another letter that went out to Mr. Lorentsen dated June 11? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015070 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2 12 A: Must have been, yes. Q: And we haven't seen it. All right? Because I would have showed it to you if I had it. A: I wish you had it. I mean, I wish you had his letter. Q: So the June 11th letter relates to a distinct and separate marketplace, industrial applications, which encompasses the uses that he had for the letter he got on June 1? A: Apparently. Q: You continue, "Aroclor 1262 and other products were not mentioned since we have no sales of these to the industrial market". So you're confirming to him why the June 11th letter didn't refer to Aroclor 1262? A: Didn't list it. Q: Because it wasn't a product that was sold to that particular marketplace? A : That ' s right. Q: You write, "The final policy has not been evolved on Aroclor 1232" which is yet another formulation of Aroclor, right? A: It was another chemical, not formulation. Q: It's an Aroclor - A: It's a distinct chemical. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015071 2 13 1 Q: Would that be an Aroclor that had 32 percent 2 chlorine? 3 A : Yes . 4 Q: But, again, as you're using the term Aroclor 5 1232 there, that would be an Aroclor that would be 6 in a drum or package that would say Aroclor as a 7 name ? 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 Q: Then you say "Sales for the products listed 10 11 will be discontinued August 30, 1970". So you're . trying to precisely draw Mr. Lorentsen's attention 12 to the particular definition of the product? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: As a way to help him out of the partial 15 confus ion - - 16 A: Yes . 17 Q: -- he was apparently suffering under? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Then you write, "We will discontinue the 20 supply of all Aroclors from our U.S. plants to these 21 22 market applications, but not to certain applications such as the electrical industry, where the product 23 can be controlled and contained". All right. So 24 you're telling him that Aroclors defined as Aroclors 25 will not be sold to him? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015072 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A: That's correct. Q: But you don't want to misrepresent to him that somebody else will be able to buy it, and 2 14 A: That's correct. Q: Now, on the next page, you will not import from the European plant for applications that are withdrawn from the market, and you're telling him where, if he really wants to, he can go buy this stuff? . A: Apparently he asked me to do that. Q: Now, you write, "We obviously are very closely aware of the relationship of the PCB problem to segments of our Pydraul product line and have a major program under way in this area". That was what that says, right? A: Yes, it doe s . Q: "Our Pydraul products and their formulations are proprietary information and we regret we cannot disclose the specifics of our technological plans at this time". So you were drawing a distinction between the Pydraul line now and the Aroclor line, A: Yes. Q: Okay. Finally, you continue in your letter, Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015073 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 2 15 1 "We recognize that the situation causes 2 difficulties to a number of customers which, 3 regretably, are unavoidable in view of the inherent 4 pollution problems". That's what that says, right? 5 A: Yes, it doe s. 6 Q: What are the difficulties which are 7 unavoidable in view of the inherent pollution 8 problems that you're referring to there? 9 A: I don't remember. 10 Q: Did you agree with Mr. Lorentsen that it was 11 somewhat confusing? 12 A: Yes. Partially. 13 Q: Partially. He was partially confused. You 14 weren't, but he was? 15 A: I can see where he was. 16 ( Plaintiff's Exhibit 195 17 marked for identification). 18 MR. ROEDER: Exhibit 195, sir, is a 19 memorandum from Mr. Papageorge to you, among others, 20 dated July 14, 1970, and it bears the production 21 number TRAN 61669 and it relates to a PCB 22 environmental problem summary status report. 23 A: Okay. 24 Q: In the lingo of the time, Mr. Papageorge 25 refers to apparent communications gap at Monsanto? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015074 2 16 1 A: Internally. 2 Q: Internally. In spite of all those memos 3 that were copied to everybody. In an effort to - 4 let's start at the beginning. Mr. Papageorge was 5 concerned that because of the larger number of 6 people involved, the many activities under way and 7 the rapid pace we must maintain to achieve 8 challanging target dates, it's been difficult to 9 properly communicate to all concerned the status of 10 our programs related to the PCB problem. Did I read 11 12 that correctly? A: Yes . 13 Q: And you would agree that that was, in fact, 14 the case as of July 1970, wouldn't you? 15 A: I would accept what he wrote, he wrote it. 16 Q: No reason to disagree? 17 A: No . 18 Q: In light of the letter that you have from 19 Mr. Peer Lorentsen? 20 A: That's external, this is internal. 21 Q: But it's on or about the same date. That's 22 July 9th, this is only five days later you got 23 letters going out for separate products to separate 24 people that may, in fact, be people who purchased a 25 similar product, but under a different name, who Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015075 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 would be getting different information, correct? 2 17 A: Yes . Q: So there was a concern inside Monsanto as well that developments were occurring so quickly that the people who needed to know about them weren't able to keep them separate? A: Apparently, yes. Q: Did you agree with the idea of having an environmental status report on a monthly basis? A: I don't recall. Q: And it's true, isn't it, that this came pretty late in your tenure? A: Yes. I think that I left in -- I don't know exactly. I left in August or September, somewhere in there, I think. Q: Okay. And as best you recall, you did not send out any additional major letters to customers for any particular product other than what we described today? A: I don't recall any. Q: So, approximately August, you think, or September that you took a position as marketing director, organic food and fine chemicals? A: That's correct. Q: And you held that position until 1975, Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015076 1 correct? Is that about right? 2 18 2 A: Yes, that is about right. 3 Q: And then you became director of marketing, 4 petroleum chemicals and polymers? 5 A: No, that's not the right title. 6 Q: Okay. What would be the right title? 7 A: I became director of marketing for 8 petrochemicals . 9 Q: Instead of petroleum, it should be 10 11 12 13 petrochemicals. Were you also involved as director of marketing for polymers? A: No . Q: So the information contained on this 14 document, in any event, it would be correct except 15 as I've lined it out? 1 6 A: Yes, except -- the next line I've got a 17 comment on. 18 Q: All right. Why don't you make the changes 1 9 that you feel are appropriate. 20 A: The next, I was director of marketing for 21 22 the Chemical Intermediates Company, which was a company rather than a group. It was a newly formed 23 company. 24 Q: Okay. And are the dates correct as 25 reflected on there, that you were director of Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015077 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 21 9 1 marketing for the Chemical Intermediates - 2 A : Company. 3 Q: Through 1983? 4 A : Yes. 5 Q: And then what happened? 6 A: Until I left, sometime in 1983, I became 7 business director for fine chemicals and water 8 treatment. 9 Q: Again, at Monsanto? 10 A : Ye s . 11 12 Q: Then in 1985 you took early retirement? A: Yes, in November. 13 Q: Did you continue to serve as a consultant 14 for Monsanto after early retirement? 15 A: No, I did not. 16 Q: Did you work between 1985 and 1988? 17 A : Yes, sir. 18 Q: Where did you work? 19 20 A: I was president of General Med Ventures, which is a group of medically related companies. 21 Q: Did you continue in that position until 22 19 8 8? 23 A: Until the first part of 1988, yes. 24 Q: Then you joined Benchmark? 25 A: Benchcraft. I used to say it that way, Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015078 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 22 0 1 too. No, there was about a six month period in 2 between where I was trying to find a company that I 3 could purchase. 4 Q: And then you purchased your interest in 5 Benchcraft? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And then became the chairman and CEO? 8 A: Chairman. 9 MR. ROEDER : I don't think I have any more 10 questions for you. 11 MR. CHAMBERS: I don't have anything. 12 (Discussion off the record). 13 MR. ROEDER: I have in front of me a copy of 14 what was attached to Monsanto's interrogatory 15 responses to Tennessee Gas, and I would just like to 16 mark this as the next exhibit, which contains the 17 witness's changes to the -- I don't know what you 18 call it, the CV of the witness. 19 20 ( Plaintiff's Exhibit 196 marked for identification). 21 22 MR. ROEDER: With the excerpts that you made on this, is this now accurate? 23 A: Yes, it is. 24 25 Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015079 _1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 221 COMES NOW THE WITNESS, DONALD A. OLSON, and having read the foregoing transcript of the deposition taken on the 18th day of October, 1995, acknowledges by signature hereto that it is a true and accurate transcript of the testimony given on the date hereinabove mentioned. DONALD A. OLSON Subscribed and sworn to me before this _ _ _ _ day of __________ / 1995. My Commission expires: _________ Notary Public rg Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015080 222 1 State of Missouri 2 SS . 3 City of St. Louis 4 I, Ronald A. Gore, a Notary Public in and for 5 the State of Missouri, duly commissioned, qualified 6 and authorized to administer oaths and to certify to 7 depositions, do hereby certify that pursuant to 8 Notice in the civil cause now pending and 9 undetermined in the Commonwealth of Kentucky, Rowan 10 11 12 Circuit Court, Civil Branch, to be used in the trial of said cause in said court, I was attended at the offices of Thompson & Mitchell, One Mercantile 13 Center, in the City of St. Louis, State of Missouri, 14 by the aforesaid witness; and by the aforesaid 15 attorneys; on the 18th day of October, 1995. 16 The said witness, being of sound mind and being 17 by me first carefully examined and duly cautioned 18 and sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth, and 19 nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, 20 thereupon testified as is shown in the foregoing 21 22 transcript, said testimony being by me reported in shorthand and caused to be transcribed into 2 3 typewriting, and that the foregoing pages correctly 24 set forth the testimony of the aforementioned 25 witness, together with the questions propounded by Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015081 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 counsel and remarks and objections of counsel thereto, and is in all respects a full, true, 223 propounded to and the answers given by said witness; that signature of the deponent was not waived by agreement of counsel. I further certify that I am not of counsel or attorney for either of the parties to said suit, not related to nor interested in any of the parties or their attorneys. Witness my hand and notarial seal at St. Louis, Missouri, this _ _ _ _ day of , 19 95 . My Commission expi r e s'"'Jtme? 2 0, 1998. State of Missouri Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000015082