Document 6BaO5J6pLmwvVJ4azw2DEvOrR

FILE NAME: US Government Contractor Regulations Including Shipyard Regulations (GCR) DATE: 1942 Dec 7&8 DOC#: GCR004 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: US Maritime Commission Minutes - In Regard to Minimum Requirements for Industrial Health and Safety Shipyards 1 INDEX 2 3 Remarks of Chairman Ring 2 4 Address by Philip Drinker 11 5 Address by Lt* Comdr. D* E. Carlson 25 6 Address by Dr, Hedvlg 8, Kuhn 27 7 Address by Ur, John Roohe 28 8 Address by Ur, Jaek Wolff 45 9 Address by Nr* Nax Xassoris 55 10 Discussion of Minimum Standards for Control of Health 60 11 Address by Ensign X, W* Nelson 105 12 Address by Ensign Morwiok Rose and 13 Demonstration of Welding 114 14 Address by Ensign John P* Ege* Jr* 126 15 Joint Meeting of Safety Men and Phyeiolans 249 16 Address by Dr* Hedwig Kuhn 256 17 Resolution of Dr. Rleke*s Committee 274 18 Adoption of Medioal Standards 295 19 Adoption of Safety Standards 500 20 Disou8Sion of Women*s Clothes for Use In Shipyards 504 21 Address by Mr* Jaok Wolff oh Job Instruction Training 525 22 23 24 25 l 1 UNITED STATES MARITIME COMMISSION AND 2 UNITED STATES NAVY 3 ------------ ------------------------ x 4 MEETING IN REGARD TO MINIMUM : 5 REQUIREMENTS FOR INDUSTRIAL ; 6 HEALTH AND SAFETY IN SHIPYARDS. : 7 ------------------ x ' . ` . 8 9 The first session of the Shipbuilding Health and Safety 10 8ection of the United States Navy and United States Maritime 11 Commission held in the Century Room Hotel LaSalle Chicago 12 Illinois, on Monday, December 7, 1942, convened at 10 o fcloclc 13 a.m., Mr. Daniel S. Ring, Chief, Shipyards Labor Relations, 14 United States Maritime Commission, presiding. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 X~A 1 FRANCES: '/ADAMS, CHAS. 0., M. D., Industrial Physician, MeCloehey , 2 h St Company, Hookers Point Shipyard, Tampa, Florida and 3 Houston, *Texas. , ANDERSON, CHAS., Western Pipe and Steel Co., Industrial 4 welfare - Safety Engineer 5 j BARRINGTON, A. R., American Optical Co., 10 S. Wabash 6 Avenue, Chicago, Illinois 7 BARRON, Andrew E., Employers Group Insurance Co., | ^Safety Engineer, 175 W. Jackson Blvd., Chicago, Illinois 3 ,BECK, Lester F., Chief Navy Insurance Division, y Office of Procurement & Material, Washington, D. C. j 10 v BEHLEY, R. J., Engineer, Travelers Insurance Company 11 BERNO, Harry L., Major, U. S. Maritime Commission, Philadelphia, Pa. 12 T BETHNER, D. C., -Gi A. Jones Construction Company, 13 'Wainvright Ship Yard, Panama City, Florida- 14 BEERBCWER, Dumont, Divisions of Public Relations, U. S. 4Maritime Commission, Washington, D. C. 15 . BROWN, Joseoh E. District Engineer, Hartford Acc. & Indi 10 'Company, 1329 Ins. Exch., 175 W. Jackson Blvd., Chicago^ Illinois- . | i 17 BURTON, Otto L., Lt. Comdr. (MC) USN Bureau Med. & Surg. 1 V Navy Department 19 BUTTERWORTH, Glenn T., US Fidelity & Guaranty Co., .Field Safety Director, 170 W. Jackson Blvd., Chicago, j 20 Illinois. ; 21 1CARLSON, D. E., Lt. Comdr., USN, Navy Department, Washington, D. C. 22 `'CARROLL, F. F. Pennsylvania Shipyard, Beaumont, Texas 23 CHARLTON, Donald, Willson Products Inc., Reading, Pa. 24 CLARK, R. R. Pennsylvania Shipyards, Beaumont, Texas 25 y CALLAHAN, Daniel F. Employers Group Safety Eng. 1-B "l J COLLINS, Charlie, Brunswick Marine Const. Corp. Ship building, Boilermaker Foreman, Brunswick, Georgia 2 COLLINS, Walter S., Delta Shipbuilding C., Inc., 3 .Chairman, Plant Labor Management Com* 1515 Verna Street, - ;New Orleans, La 4 ....... CONLON, Walter J., St. John*s River Shipbuilding Co., 5 Jacksonville, Fla. . _ . 6 COOK, Warren A., National Conservation Bur. (and Zurich *Ins. Co.) 135 South LaSalle St., Chicago, Illinois . . 7 CORD, Albert Wa., Aetna Cas. it Surety Ins. Co., Chicago S J Insp. & Eng. Dept. 120 S. LaSalle St., Chicago, Illinois 9 CROFT, Theo., G., Dr., St. John*s River Shipbuilding * Co., Jacksonville, Fla. 10 CURRIN, George E., National Safety Council, Publicity, 11 v 20 N. Wacker Dr., Chicago, Illinois. 12 / DALZELL, W. C., Asst* Gen. Supt., De}.ta Shipbuilding Company. 13 /DANIELS, J; W., U. S. Fidelity and Guaranty Co., Div. 14 Safety Rep., 166 W. Jackson Blvd., Chicago, Illinois. 15 DEKKER, Tunis H., Army Ordnance Safety A Security vBranch, Safety Engr., 333 N. Michigan Avenue, Chicago, 16 Illinois. 17 /DESJARDENS, Henry G., Safety Engineer, Navy Department, Washington, D. C. . 1 .DOLAN, G. T. Walter Butler Shipbuilders Inc., Adminlstra- 19 J tion Mgr. 20 DOUGHTY, H. R., K & S Restaurants, Electric Boat Co., y/Grot on, Connecticut. 21 DRINKER, Phillip, Dr., Department of Industrial Hygiene, 22 School of Public Health, Harvard U., Boston, Mass. 23 / EGE, John F., Jr., Ensign, 55 Bhatuck St., Boston, Mass. 24 ELSBY, Chas. H., Safety Engineer, Employers Mutual jLiability Ins. Co. of Wisconsin, 1200 Bnpire Building, 25 Milwaukee, Wisconsin ' 1-C 1 EVERTZ, C. G., Safety Engineer, Manitowoc Shipbuilding wo., Manitowoc, Wisconsin 2 >FAIL, A. M. Alabama Dry D. Ship. Co., Mobile, Alabama S FLUXER, Dr. C. B., Valnvright Shipyard, Panama City, 4 sFlorida (The Travelers). 5 FRAZIER, Hal C., Safety Engineer, Houston Shipbuilding Corporation, Houston, Texas 6 GARFIELD, S. R., Dr., Richmond Shipyards, Vancouver-* 7 1Falser Co. . S GILES, William P., Dr., Rheem Mfg. Co., Providence, /Rhode Island. . 9 v';GOLDSTINE, Edgar N., California Shipbuilding Corporation 10 GRAHAM, S. D., Delta Shipbuilding Co., Safety Director, 11 *1308 Short Street, New Orleans, La. 12 GRAHAM, Walter E., Capt., US Maritime Commission, 'Regional Industrial Advisor, New Orleans, La. 13 GRAY, R. D., Walter Butler Shipbuilders, Inc., Exec. 14 V. President 15 /GREENLEE, H. R., Captain, Houston Shipbuilding 1 6 HAAS, Toxey D., M. D., Ala. Dry Dock & S. B. Co 'Mobile, Alabama 17 lb HAGEMANN, IRVIN L., Tampa Shipbuilding Co., Tampa, Fla. HARMON, J. G. Labor Management, Southeastern Shipbuilding 19 Corp., Savannah, Ga. 20 /HAYDEN, J. M., Moore Dry Docking Co., Asst. Supt. Elec. 21 Dept. 22 /HOGGAN, A. C., Labor Coordinator, Ore Shipbuilding Corp. 23 v h o IMSZOG, Otto S., Senior Construction Engineer, Employer^ ^Mutuals Liability Ins. Co., of Wls., Milwaukee, Wisconsin, 24 HURLESS, V. V. Employers Liability Ass.' Corp., Safety 25 Engineer, 175 W. Jackson Blvd., Cnicago, Illinois. x-u i .1 HUTCHINSON, A. K., St. Johns River Shipbuilding Co., Jacksonville, Fla 2 ' 1 JONES, I. 0., Safety Engineer, Southeastern Shipbuilding! S ^Corp., Savannah, Ga. 4 /JONES, J. Jr., Electric Boat Co., Groton, Conn 5 ^JONSON, Rheem Mfg. Co., Providence, Rhode Island. 6 JOHNSON, Franklyn W., Oregon Shipbuilding Corporation, ^Portland, Oregon, and Kaiser Co. Inc. Safety Engineer. 7 KATE, Dave, Kaiser Co., Inc., dchmond Shipyard #3, S 1Richmond, Calif. u KEEFER, V. Dean, Lumbermen's Mutual Cas. Co., 4750 ' Sheridan Rd., Cnlcago, Illinois. 10 KENDALL, Carter, Bethlehem Steel Co., Bethlehem, Pa., li Safety Engineer. , i 12 /KOSSORIS, H. D., U v S. Bureau of Labor, Statistics 13 KUHN, Hedvig, Dr., Nat. Society Prevention Blindness, *112 Rimbach Ave., Hammond, Indiana. 14 LAMIE, A. J., Supt. Engineering Dept., Paclfio Indemnity 15 ^Co., 621 S. Hope St., Los Angeles, California. 16 LESTER, D. R., Great Lakes Eng. Works Safety Director, j :1330 S. LaSalle, Chicago | 17 LOCKE, Thomas L., New Eng. Div. Mgr. Eng. Dept., lfc American Mutual Liability Ins. Co., 142 Berkeley St., j Boston, Mass. i I 19 McCOY, D. A., M. D. Liberty Mutual Ins. Co., Medical 20 'Research, Industrial Div., Boston, Mass. 21 McKee, C. S. M. D., 175 W. Jackson Travelers Ins. Co., ' Chicago. ' 22 MARTIN, A. L., Safety Engr., Employers Mutual, Wansan, 23 Sheboygan, Wisconsin. 24 MATHEWSON, J. H. Safety Engineer, National Safety ' Council, Chicago, Illinois 25 1 v'MAYHEW, Clarence, Marin Ship, Calif*, Labor Management 2 MEHAPFEY, C. H., Industrial Hygienist, Mine Safety /Appliances, Pittsburgh, Pa. 3 MERRETT, A. R*, Gulf Shipbuilding Ave., Mobile, Alabama 4 MILLER, Lawrence C., Safety Director, California 5 ^Shipbuilding Corporation 6 /MOORE, Robert S., Todd-Hoboken, Dry Docks, Hoboken,N. J. 7 /HOREY, C. T., Rheem Mfg. Co., Providence, Rhode Island. 8 /MULLIN, David P., South Portland Shipbuilding Corporation. 9 NEILSON, A- S., St. JohnTs River Shipbuilding Co., 'Jacksonville, Fla. 10 NELSON, X. W., Ensign, U.S.N.R. 55 Shattuck St., Boston, 11 Massachusetts 12 . NORTON, Jack, Rheems Mfg. Co., Providence, R. I. J(Labor A.F.L.) 13 0*CONNELL, John F. Marine Ship Corporation, Labor 14 * Coordination 15 ./OLDS, Harvey, Richmond Shipyards, Ch., Labor - Management Comm. 16 OWENS, R. W., Representing C. W. Eliason,Regional 17 ^Construction, Office Oakland, California 18 /PACKARD, H. E., Los Angeles Shipbuilding & Drydock Corporation 19 /PARTENHEIMER, C. A. American Optical Company 20 /PEARE, Eugene S.f Adjuster, Aetna Cas. & Sur. Co. 21 POLSEY, C. W., M. D. Med. Director Pacific Indemnity Coj, 22 Consol. Steel Ship Bldg. Dir.,Los Angeles Ship Bldg., `Western Pipe A Steel Shipbuilding Dir. 23 . PRICE, B. Joseph, M. D. Medical Dlreotor, Gulf Ship- 24 J building Corp., Mobile, Alabama 25 1-F 1 ^RELLER, Louis S., The Ingalls Shipbuilding Cox*., Pascagoula, Hiss., Asst* to Executive Vice Pres* 2 RIEKE, F. E., Dr*, Med, Dir* Oregon Shipbuilding S Corporation, Portland, Oregon, ' 4 iREIN, W. J., Dr. Delta Shipbuilding Co., Phys. Charge 5 Of 1st Aid Station 3613 Napolian Ave*, New Orleans, La, 6 RING, Daniel S., Director Shipyard Labor Relations, U* Maritime Commission, Washington, D. C. 7 ,ROCHE, John M., Safety Consultant, U. S. Maritime Commi ssion* S y /ROSS, Morwick, Ensign, 55 Shattuok St., Boston, Mass. 10 ^SCHMOHL, George F., Alabama Dry Dock & Shipbuilding Co., Mobile, Alabama* ' il j SCHNAKENBERG, George, Todds Erie Basin Dry Docks. Brooklyn, N. Y. 12 13 /SCoE*CREST, Fred M. Personnel Dir. American Ship Building 14 SELF, Thos. R*, Asst. Dir. Eve, Mgr. American Mutual 15 Liability Cas. Co., Atlanta, Georgia 16 SESSIONS, H. K., Lieut* Com*d*r, (MC) U, S. Navy Med* . Officer for Industrial Hygiene & Medicine, Norfolk 17 Navy Yards, Portsmouth, Virginia 18 SEXMOOR, W. H., Liberty Mutual Insurance Co., Boston, Mass., V. P. Chief Eng. Safety, Eng. Dept. 19 SIBLEY, H* W., Ingall Shipbuilding Co*, Pascagoula, 20 Miss., Labor Management Comm. Representing Lebor A.F.L. 21 j SINWOTT, Edmund T., 90 St. John St., New York City, C. R, Black Jr, Corp*, Todd Shipyards Inc* 22 SMITH, Herbert A., Todd-Johnson Dry Docks, New Orleans, 23 La., Safety IFIng. . 24 .*SMITti, Earle, Gulf Shipbuilding Corporation 25 i SMITH, S. T., Consolidated Steel Corporation, Los Angeles, Calif*, Safety Dir. * 1-0 1 '/s n i d e #, Baron D., Karine Ship Corp., Sa*all to, Calif. 2 SPEBCER, Dr. L. C. Ked. Dir. Southeastern Ship Building "Corporation, Mac Evoy Ship Building Corp., Savannah, Oa. 3 SPOFFORD, V. E., Regional Dir. Const., S10 South 4 ''Michigan, Chicago, Illinois 5 STERLING, L. H., Adjuster, Travelers Ins. Co., 453 *Insurance Ex. Bldg., Chicago, Illinois 6 STRIPLING, V. C., Ala. Dry Dock & Ship Bldg. Corp. 7 Safety Dir. S SWART, Harmon V. Vice Pres., X & S Rest. ~ Industrial /Food - Crafts Serving Electric Boat Co., New London, y Connecticut 10 TALLMAN, Wm., H. Safety Dir., Me Closkey & Company, .Hookers Paint Shipyard, Tampa, Florida and Houston, n Texas. 12 /TELLER, Ji. W. R. Lt. Cmdr. U. S. N. District Industrial Relatione Officer, 106 Administration 13 Building, Great Lakes, 111* 14 TERRY, Jr. Wallace I., Moore Dry Dock Co., Oakland, ^ California, Director of Safety. 15 WAXEMAN, J. R. jest. to Pres. Southwestern Shipbuilding 16 1Corp., Savannah, Ga. 17 ^WALL, Jr., W. W. Safety Eng. Brunswick Marine Const. Corp., Brunswick, Ga. 18 WATSON, A. L., Chairman Labor Mgnt. Comm., Richmond 19 'Shipyard #1, Kaiser Shipyard 20 WENZEL, Herbert, Acting Industrial Advisor, Maritime J Commission, Chicago, Illinois 21 WHELAN, T. J., Supervising Const. Eng. Travelers Ins. 22 ^Co., Hartford, Conn. 23 I WHITE, E. E., Sun Shipbuilding Co., Chester, Pa. Safety J Eng. - Per. Dir. 24 j WIKFREE, E. S., Pennsylvania Shipyards, Inc., Beaumont, 25 Texas 1-H 1 /WOLFF, Jack, Supervisor Shipyard Training, Div. Shipyard Labor Relatione U. 8 Maritime Commission, - j 2 Washington, D. C. - - 3 ^WOODELL, Todd, Oregon Shipbuilding Corp., Portland, ~ Ore., Mgr. Ins. ft Safety 4 VAN DOREN,W. S., California Shipbuilding Corp., . 5 J Wilmington, Calif. 6 mi y 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 lb 19 20 21 o'j CHAIRMAN RING! Ho. a. .e start off. I guess w " too. .ho .. are. My name is Ring. I am alth the Maritime Commission, in charge of the shipyard labor relations, and a part of th. function of the shipyard labor r.lation. is that of safety and health programs for eontraotors of the Maritime Commission in the various yards all over the country. This oonferenoe le being called Jointly by the Maritime Commission and the Navy in the Interest of promoting standar ised programs to develop at least minimum requirements for th tvo, safety and health, for the million people .ho .ill be in the shipyards after the first of the year. Th. invitations .ent forth to all of the eontraotors in shipyards on the Atlantic, Pacific, Great Lakes, and Gulf Coasts, and a response has been received .hleh indicate, that there .ill be a far larger attendance here as the day goes on than no*. We received a number of .ires this morn ing indicating that trains are late, planes have been delayed, an4 that those .ho are intending to attend the conference .ill be delayed* We are afraid to hold things up any longer on account of those lth transportation delays, and felt if e r e g g to get anyehere might a. - 1 1 tart no. and let th. latecorners pick up aa they oome In. This conference -a. set on foot after it .a. realised that although during the last year trem.ndeu. etrides had 1 been made with production In the fast and growing expansion 2 of all of the plants, too little attention had been paid to 3 the matters Involving the health and safety of the employees* 4 We have had towns, and sizable towns, that have grown to ` 5 double their oapaoity, and to treble their capacity, during 6 the last year, and we have had yards that have mushroomed out 7 to such a degree that in the rush and bustle of getting pro 8 duction going and putting the work in on the million tons of 9 shipping we expect to get In this year, that possible the 10 features of protecting the health of the men who are working 11 in the yards and their safety have not been emphasized on a 12 standardized basis and on a uniform basis as they should have 13 been* ' 14 Accordingly, the Maritime Commission and the Navy de 15 cided that they would have a survey made in which facts would 16 be gathered whereby we could present to the industry and 17 those who are principally interested standards for the ob 18 servation of rules governing the health of men working in the 19 yards and their safety. As a result of that, the services 20 of Mr. Drinker, who is the head of the Public Health, and a 21 group of men from the Bureau of Medioine and Surgery, of the 22 Navy, were detailed to take a tour in typical yards all over 23 the country to find out what the facts were. We felt that 24 before planning on any rules we had better get down to bed. 25 rock and know exactly what conditions exist* 4e 1 They made this tour and made speolfio records and re~ 2 ports on each yard, transmitting the same to the yard for 3 their guidance* In addition to that, they mere at all times 4 collecting data mhlch mould be In the nature of a ooomon de 5 nominator as far as everyone mas concerned, so that at the 6 conclusion of the tour Mr. Drinker and his associates felt 7 that me mould have enough faots at hand to be able to present 8 to the Industry, through the Maritime Commission and Navy, 9 minimum standards as to the requirements for the protection 10 of the health of the men In the yards. 11 During this morning, Mr. Drinker mill present ter you 12 those minimum standards for health. At the same time Mr. 13 John Rochfe of the National Safety Council ..also made a tour 14 of the principal shipyards in the oountry from the standpoint 15 of safety, and he has developed a number of facts mhlch have 16 led him to.believe that me can nom have a sufficient factual 17 basis to prescribe minimum standards so far as the safety 18 factors in the yards are concerned. 19 In addition to that, Mr. Jack Wolf, mho is in charge of 20 training for the Maritime Commission, has also made a number 21 of tours and he has Borne very decided ideas mith respeot to 22 the inculcation of the health hazards and the safety perils 23 in the minds of men mho are Just entering the industry. He 24 feels, and me all feel, that this can be very well made a 25 part of the training program, so that as the man walks in new K 1 green. Into the industry, one of the very first things 2 ; he gets along Kith the training as far as the skill of 3 eraft that he is going to work in is concerned, is a 4 moaledge of Khat he must do, and what he must observe to 5 protect his own health and to protect his own safety* 6 If you get that to the men shen they are Just coming in 7 the yard, why then you have started right at the foundation 8 to build up a respect for the health and safety program. 9 You will notice, among other things hanging around here, 10 a lot of empty suits which are designed for the use of women 11 coming into industry. We all know from recent reports that 12 there is going to be a tremendous influx of women in the in 13 dustry, specialized attention therefore is being given along 14 those lines Independent from the line that this conference 15 will prooeed upon. However, we have felt in view of the fact 15 the manufacturers have moved toward the production of clothes 17 which will be safe for women to wear in the industry, you 18 might like to see some. Accordingly, arrangements are being 19 made, and our scouts are now out to obtain some human figures 20 of attractive form that can make these empty clothes that are 21 hanging on the rack a little more delectable so far as the 22 eyes are concerned, and it is hoped that tomorrow we will be 23 able to present to you a specific demonstration with some of 2 4 the more attractive types of people in Chieago to be wearing 25 them so that you can see for yourselves exactly how the fea- 1 tures of the clothing will be presented. 2 I as at first a little afraid of such a program, be 3 cause It struok me that maybe the wearer of the olothes and 4 their appe&ranoe might detract from the concentration on the 5 clothes themselves If we did such a thing. However, I was 6 overruled, and Mr. Roche especially here said, "You do not 7 expect these fellows who are pretty hard boiled and who have 8 come from all seotions of the oountry, to become very en- 9 thu&iastlc and pay very much attention to a lot of empty 10 clothes? You have to put those clothes over some very at 11 tractive forms before they will really give their attention 12 to it,* and accordingly arrangements are being made, as I 13 have said, to have some sort of a safety olothes model show 14 tomorrow afternoon. We will hear more about that later. 15 Now, one of the very serious things that we are con 16 fronted with is the fumes from welding maohines, and there 17 will be a demonstration on that for each group, one for those 16 of you who are specifically dedicated to the health side of IS it, and one for those who are specifically from the safety 20 department this afternoon. The announcements on that will 21 be made a little later by Mr. Drinker. 22 We have asked the yards and the men who are really shouldering this responsibility in the various yards on bealtfc 23 and safety to give this matter serious consideration, and we 24 do that in order that we will get those who are directly 25 1 oonoerned with the problems that are involved. 2 1 want to welcome all of you here, and I want to tell 3 you that 1 think that this is the first time that the ship 4 building industry on the scope as broad as this has moved 5 directly into cooperation and focused itself and its atten 6 tion on two very specific problems that they have. 7 You want to remember that it was on this day Just a year 8 ago that the blow came at Pearl Harbor. The thing that left 9 us stunned for a little while; the thing that no one ever 10 expected would ooour, and although we have gone along during 11 the last year, striving here and striving there, most of us 12 were doing it with our eyes right on the Job before us, in 13 order to develop things, and it is only when you stand today, 14 a year from that day, and look back over the year that has 15 Just passed, and realize what a tremendous Job that the ship 16 yards of the nation have accomplished. 17 Our boys,to the extent of four millions, and I imagine 18 that there are very few of us here who has not one who is 19 close to us, are out in the uniform ready to protect the 20 things that we hold so dear in this country. 21 We are building the ships to take the ammunition and 22 the supplies to the manpower of the nation, and it has been 23 restricted and reduoed in such a way that we must make sure 24 that the farthest possible use must be made of every one of 25 us who are able to work on the home front. 1 With that in Tie* we are dedioating this conference to 2 the purpose of promoting the greatest Individual efficiency 3 in shipyards throughout the country. Our whole objective is 4 based upon production because everything else is subsidiary 5 to that but we must remember that production in this struggle 6 is something of a long-range nature. 7 This is not going to be a short struggle that we are 8 in as everyone realizes what odds we are up against, and if 9 we are going to be in a long drawn out struggle we have got 10 to have men who are physically fit and we have got to keep 11 them physically fit, and we have got to keep them from the I 12 perils that will impair their productivity. 13 I again want to say that you are weloome here. I hope 14 that we will have an opportunity to meei each other person 15 ally, and discuss individual problems as we go along, but 16 time with us, especially in these days, is very short. We 17 hope to wind this conference up tomorrow evening, and as for 18 the general program at the present time, I think I will Just 19 sketch that now. 20 First,you will hear from Mr. Drinker with respeot to the 21 minimum standards so far as health is concerned. 22 Next, you will hear from Mr. John Roche with respeot to 23 minimum standards so far as safety is concerned, and next you 24 will hear from Mr. Jaok Wolf with respect to the training 25 program.  9 1 Then, we would welcome a word from the representatives 2 of the Navy, Commander Carlson, and Ur. DesJardines, and 3 then I think the time will he ripe to separate for the after** 4 noon session Into two groups, where you yourself can study 5 what Is being presented to you and find out If In the papers 6 that have been distributed to you anything Is whacky, or any 7 thing Is off the beam, and let us all sit down together and 8 work out for ourselves from the wealth of experience and 9 knowledge that we have here along these specialized lines 10 standards that will be ones of Integrity, that will be prac 11 tical ones, that will be ones which will result in a promo 12 tion and accumulation of production, and when we have done 13 that, all collectively, we ought to come together here to 14 morrow morning on a final agreement on the consensus of this 15 conference with respeot to those standards. 16 Once that is done, it is Intended that the Maritime 17 Commission and the Navy Department promulgate those to all 18 of the yards, and ask that in the interest of efficient pro 19 duction, those standards be adhered to. We will have an or 20 ganization Jointly dedicated to the yards with Navy contracts 21 and Maritime Commission contracts which will be applicable to 22 all companies, both from the health and from the safety stand 23 point. 24 We want you to understand that we do not intend to do 25 this Job ourselves. That is basically your Job. However, we 1 do hope that we can act in the role of coordinators and ad 2 visers* We want to be there to help you do that Job. 3 Now, in the very first place, we want it understood that 4 the standards will be the product of your doing, your own 5 conference right here* If all those who oome who have been 6 invited, we will have representatives here from the Safety ' 7 Department, from the Medical Department, from management, 8 from labor, and in that way we will have a true cross picture 9 of those who have the principal duty of really building these 10 ships for us* 11 Now, tomorrow morning then it is hoped that we will be 12 in a position to come to some agreement on what the standards 13 should be* Tomorrow afternoon we hope that we will be able 14 to display to you the most advanced styles so far as elothes 15 for women are concerned, and as soon as definite arrangements 16 are made on that, we will let you know* 17 From now on, I think that we might as well get down to 18 work. If any of you have not got copies of Mr. Drinker's or 19 Mr. Roche's data, they will available for you at the regis 20 tration desk outside. I also want to say that everyone here 21 will register so that we will have a record of the attendance 22 Again, I want to thank you very much indeed for your 23 attendance here and I want to wish you all success in the 24 speedy and efficient formulation of these formulas for the 25 protection of the health and safety of workers in our ship- 1 pards, because,after all, it Is going to be your Job* Thank 2 You all very muoh, indeed* (Applause.) 3 Noe, I eant to present to you Ur. Drinker, eho will talk 4 to you on the minimum standards for industrial health In 5 6 MR. PHILIP DRINKER: Have you gentlemen all copies of 7 this minimum standards for the control of health In contract 8 shipyards of Maritime Commission end Navy? 9 Now, It will be Impossible for this to be the success 10 we hope for the conference unless you in such brief time as 11 we have, and we are going to designedly have plenty, unless 12 you mill around and get to know each other and inter-visit. 13 You come fromall corners of the country, and many of you have 14 not met each other, and we wish you would throw formality to 15 the winds and Just inter-visit and have some unofficial talks 16 about anything at all to do with the things that bring us 17 here* 18 Will you turn first to Section A, page 1, and I do not 19 intend to read all of this in detail, but I do hope that 20 those who are especially concerned with the medical end of 21 this, will take time to go over it roughly now, and then in 22 detail this afternoon and this evening* 23 On the first few paragraphs there probably is nothing 24 especially controversial, but as we go down the page there 25 will be, notably under physical facilities, item 2, under the 1 Roman numerals we suggest that substations for first aid be 2 within a distance of about 400 yards for anybody so that a 3 man would,in an emergenoy Job, not have to be taken further 4 than that,or if he could walk, he would not have to be re 5 quested to go farther than that himself. 6 We do not wish to imply in this that we intend to be 7 arbitrary and go out and measure the distanoe. We certainly 8 do not expect to do that. 9 The doctors and nurses and ambulance facilities are 10 more or less according to the accepted practices, and I think 11 in many yards they are already established. If the yard 12 beats these suggestions that naturally is no cause for un 13 favorable comment. We favor it very warmly. 14 On page 2-A, one of the first faults that we found with 15 the maritime yards, - and it is not true of all of them, - 16 but of some of them, and that was the records and forms that 17 came to the Maritime Commission. We thought that those rec 18 ords and forms were very poor, and they are being changed, 19 and that will be discussed in some detail in Mr. Roche's sec 20 tion. 21 The suggested forms that we would like to see filled 22 in now, and whloh in many cases have not been filled in, are 23 any such form as this discussed in 2-A. Now, we know in an 24 emergency we do not want any form filled out. When a man is 25 badly hurt, you do not want him to fill out any form in order * 'i 1 to bring him to a doctor, naturally. 2 Item 1 la a form authorizing the workman to report to S the medloal department for examination or treatment issued by 4 a foreman or leading man or other supervisor. This shall 5 show time of issue, arrivalat dispensary, discharge from dis 6 pensary and return to work. 7 In many cases, now there are no records in the yards of 8 men who go to dispensaries for minor ailments. They cause 9 loss of time, and in most cases we have no way of showing it, 10 and no way of comparing with another yard for loss of time 11 on any such basis. That Is not true in every place, but it 12 is true in a great many of them. 13 The filing of reoords with the medical department and 14 the safety department in many oases is not good at all, and 15 it would be a decided advantage of all to see that that is 16 good. 17 We would like to have the safety and medical departments 18 to have the same records of any accident, injuries qr ill 19 ness, and that they have that Information given to them 20 promptly. 21 Under examinations we urge very strongly what might be 22 called a pre-placement examination for employees. This does 23 not mean an examination in advanoe of hiring necessarily, but 24 when a man is hired he should be examined to see that he is 25 put in the Job for which he is physioally suited, and not one 1 for which he is physically unsulted, whioh may do him harm " 2 or harm to those with whom he works* We feel that periodic 3 check examinations should be given to the men In all Jobs 4 where the .men are doing something which Is hazardous or which 5 is a risky Job,either to the men themselves or to others* I 6 have reference to crane operators, locomotive and hoisting and 7 portable engineers* It oertainly should have periodic physi 8 cal check-ups, and now In many yards-they do not have that* 9 We urge In the strongest possible terms that there be periodic 10 check examinations to men In Jobs In which there Is a definite 11 health risk such as sand blasting, paint spraying, and cer 12 tain types of radium and x-ray work. 13 Item 3 Is that special examinations, such x-ray, r.eero- 14 logio and urinalyses shall be given In the Individual case as 15 Indicated, and In accordance with local needs* Now, special 16 examinations such as x-ray, serologlo, and urinalyses would 17 be asked by a doctor In any normal establishment, and we be 18 lieve it should be here, but we do not think there Is a w 19 need for us to give any cut and dried scheme that you should 20 follow* They will vary with the place, and we think it would 21 be afrLndranoe rather than a help for us to detail the pro 22 cedure to be followed everywhere. 23 On page 3-A, air raid precautions, the amount of work 24 that was done on that, and the preparations throughout the 25 country was quite different* In some places It was done in K 1 completely, and In other places It as done rather haphazard 2 ly. It as more or less a matter of chance. 3 No, e do not believe that our organization is in any 4 position to say hat precautions ought to be taken, but e 5 do feel very strongly that the least the yard can do is to 6 keep up to date and be sure they are acting in accordance 7 vith the ishes of the local army and navy officials. If 8 that is done, there is no reason that ve should criticize it, 9 but by and large most of the yards we sa the emergency med 10 ical supplies, such as you would need in the event of an air 11 raid, etc., were generally speaking all in one place. Now, 12 that is not always true, but generally it is. So if there 13 was a direct hit, presumably most of them would be destroyed. 14 The responsibilities of the medical services are, I 15 think, more or less what would be expected, with possible 16 exceptions of item No. 3. That, I do not think has been done 17 in practloally any yard we have seen, and is done in most 16 modern industrial establishments, such as large factories. 19 That is, it should be the Joint responsibility of the med 20 ical and safety departments through the supply department to 21 know the composition of paints, thinners, paint removers, 22 and other chemicals used in the yard. 23 We have seen some astonishing sights from the health 24 Standpoint in men using a chemical which no one would knew 25 the proper name of. They didn't know what they were working 1 lth, and In some eases they ere chemicals the result of a 2 careless use would be bad* 3 Now, there Is no reason why, If the Maritime Commission 4 and the Navy act as a unit, we cannot have what amounts to an 5 enforced labeling, and that would simplify things a lot. 6 You may buy a oan of something or other to thin paint 7 with, and what we want to do is to make the manufacturer put 8 the name of the ingredient'on there. Now, you do not have 9 to ash him to divulge the chemical formula, but you would 10 save us a lot of headaches if that information was given. 11 Now, we have a laboratory on the west coast, but we do 12 not want you to send in these chemicals fof us to analyze. 13 It is a devil of a Job,* and it is very easy for the manufac 14 turer who puts the labels on there to give us that informa 15 tion, We do not want to have him divulge the trade secrets 16 or his secret formula because there is no reason why we 17 should have it, but Instead of "Quick Acting Solvent 22," 18 or something like that, they might as well put on the com 19 position, say, 10 per cent benzoin, 80 per cent phenol, or 20 whatever it is, and let us know what it is. That would save 21 you a lot of trouble, and also it would save us a lot of 22 trouble. 23 Now, the way to get this is if you gentlemen feel about 24 It the way we do, we will Just say it is the sense of this 25 meeting, and that the Maritime Commission and the Navy feel 4 1 that this ought to be done, and we think we oan put It 2 through We would have the strong booking in that oase of 3 most of the large manufacturing companies likewise, such as 4 General Eleotrlo, General Motors, etc,, because they are in 5 the same boat, and they donot like these weird names in 6 their ohemloals any more than we do* 7 Now, I hope very much that you will give us your back 8 ing on that, and if you have any reason to disagree, perhaps 9 when we get down to details or on that this afternoon, you 10 oan so indloate* 11 On Item No, 5, the future employment of women, and the 12 necessity of making provisions in the meioal set-up for their 13 examinations and care, la perfectly obvious, but I do not 14 think it is being foreseen in a good many yards as it should 15 be* 16 Cafeterias and oanteens. By and large in the Maritime 17 and the Navy contract yards, they could stand a very lot of 18 improvement* We saw few of them that would compare favorably 19 that you would see in a modern manufacturing plant* What 20 ought to be done about them from the broad national policy, 21 we are not yet quite sure, but something oertalnly should be 22 done* We would urge strongly that the medical departments 23 examine food handlers in these cafeterias, and have a regular 24 scheme for such examinations* 25 Also, that the medloal departments inspect any cafeteria 18e 1 or food dispensing arrangement that the men use, and inspeot '2 them, the way they are done, and in regular army and navy 3 work. Now, those inspections ought to be at scheduled timesj 4 and they ought to be very frequent, and they ought to be 6 thorough. 6 The water supply, sewerage and waste disposal by and 7 large, we had little fault to find with any of them. There 8 were one or two exceptions, but in general they were well 9 handled* But, we think those suggestions for inspection on 10 page 4 should be followed. 11 The provisions for salt tablets, particularly in the 12 yards around the Gulf ,are important, and in plenty of the 13 east coast yards in the summer weather. 14 Now, part of our set-up for the future work will involve 15 the laboratory which will be at the Harvard School of Public 16 Health, and there will be another one at Berkeley, California 17 The work that we want these laboratories to do at first is 18 to help you out in examination of urine specimens, and in 19 fected blood poisoning. 20 We propose to discuss in the medical meeting this after 21 noon procedures for carrying out such analyses and we will be ready, we hope, very soon to help you out with such analyses 22 ourselves, and then to send somebody who can show you how to 23 do them, if you want to set them out routinely. We know, 24 or we can show you beyond any argument, I think, that in 25 1 practically all of the Maritime and many of the Navy operated 2 yards know you are likely to get some lead poisoning, es 3 pecially from welding on lead painted surfaces* As you know, 4 it is pretty nearly routine procedure now in all Maritime 5 yards to paint all metal surfaces as soon as possible, whethe:* 6 they have been erected or not, and very often the painted onen 7 are taken out to the hull and welded in the proper position* 8 The lead paint is not stripped off at that time before weld 9 ing* The routine procedure is to weld with the paint on, 10 and the heat of the arc gets rid of the paint, and the weld 11 ing Job is all done at one time* 12 There has never been any such work done yet industrially 13 when lead poisoning has 'not resulted, and we think it is 14 certain to result in the ship yards. The way to avoid it, 15 obviously, is not to paint needlessly, and we are sure you 16 will back us in suggesting to the Maritime Commission that 17 steps be taken to reduce that practice of painting before it 18 needs to be done* 19 We have no fault to find with ship construction in which 20 a Job is finished, and has been painted, and an inspector 21 goes around and checks off, and says that that has to be 22 rewelded. That sort of thing is inevitable. We are not 23 criticizing that, but we are criticizing the needlees pre 24 painting, and we are firmly convinced that from the production 25 standpoint that that can be easily stopped. (*\i 1 Now, we will show you In the demonstration here this 2 afternoon when we have a welding outfit going the procedures 3 now adopted for sampling air, and It Is a procedure that can 4 be done by the safety engineers, or the procedures that our 5 men will use when they come to visit you to check up on any 6 such hazards as we are discussing here today* 7 Now, those sort of air analyses and checks need not be 8 done often* We do not want to wish a needless chore on you 9 that will interfere with more Important duties for the safety 10 engineer, and above all the last thing we want to do Is to 11 put through any restrictions that will slow up the ship 12 building program. If we can present to you the facts as we 13 know they exist, why then maybe you can make suggestions 14 yourselves to put through the things that you think are 15 necessary* . 16 The items under Section "B" on the use of safety depart 17 ments in daipyards which has to do with respiratory protec 18 tive equipment, and the like, we think that the respiratory 19 program in the Maritime yards, and the Navy yards, have not 20 been at all good. We would urge in the strongest possible 21 terms that all yards now buy only and use only respiratory 22 and respiratory protective equipment that has the approval 23 of the United States Bureau of Mines Experiment Station at 24 Pittsburg^* They have a laboratory that Is especially 25 adapted for this testing work, and they issue lists period!- AML 1 call? of firms supplying respirators which have the federal 2 approval 3 We have seen material used of protective equipment in 4 practically every yard which is not at all suited to the Job. 5 The most reliable consultant you can get on that today is 6 the United States Bureau of Mines, which, of course, is a 7 federal organisation and whose information is open to all 8 of you immediately* 9 We will have here, and show you this afternoon, and 10 tomorrow, a respirator, or respirators which have such appro 11 val, respirators which give aid, adequate protection, et 12 cetera, in welding of lead painted surfaces* 13 Now, there is an item on 3-5 on sterilization of res 14 pirators which perhaps will be a useful scheme to you, and 15 also you will notice in the last paragraph of the last page 16 on 3-B, reference to the National Safety Council sheet 17 governing the same thing more fully* 18 Section C is devoted to a very brief discussion of 19 seven items of industrial diseases which is likely to occur 20 in shipyards, or in many cases already have* The most im 21 portant of them is the flash burn, foreign bodies in the 22 eyes, and then probably lead poisoning* On page 2-C is 23 solvent vapors, and solvent vapors can likely be eliminated 24 by cowpulsory labeling of chemicals or can be cut down 25 extremely* bCj 1 3~C refers to sine fume fever from welding galvanized 2 metals* 3 The next section has to do with fiberglas, and then on 4 4-C, it has to do with asbestosis, and silicosis* The 5 asbestosis Is caused In connection with the handling of 6 asbestos* That Is not unlike silicosis in Its effects, and 7 we rather expect it to oocur In shipyards because we have 8 seen asbestos being handled in installation work with little 9 or no precautions* . 10 Asbestosis, silicosis, lead poisoning from solvent 11 vapors, and lead can really not be controlled satisfactorily 12 unless systematic, periodic examinations of men are enforced* 13 I might say, it is very difficult or practically Impossible 14 to control it by urinalysis* It has never been able to 15 control it that way so far that I know of* 16 In Section D we have ventilation standards, the dis 17 cussion of which would be out of order now, but we will dis 18 cuss them this afternoon, and again tomorrow with any groups 19 who are especially concerned* I know there are quite a few 20 men here today who are very much interested in ventilation 21 in ship construction, starting from the double bottoms, and 22 going right on up, and there is nothing that we would like 23 more than get into such a discussion with them. We will work 24 that in tomorrow at any time you gentlemen see fit. 25 I hope you have made some notes on this* We propose Z '6 1 this afternoon for those Interested in the medical aspects, 2 to meet in this room at tvo o'clock, and those interested 3 in the safety engineering aspects will meet with Ur* Roche 4 in the American Room on the mezzanine floor at two o fclock. 5 Then, at three-thirty o'clock we will shift and we will then 6 give the same welding demonstration here, and .ventilation to 7 the safety group and Mr. Roche will go over his stuff to * 8 some extent with the medical group. - 9 As a result of the conferences this afternoon, we hope 10 that we can iron out perhaps most of the difficulties, objec 11 tions, additions, or subtractions that you have to make to 12 these proposed standards, and that tomorrow we can formulate 13 it into final shape. 14 Mr. Roche and I apologize jointly for the fact that thero 15 is a certain amount of duplication in his reports, and ours. 16 Some of these things are safety engineering, and some are 17 medical, and some certainly are both. 18 He is interested in preventing accidents, and disease, 19 just as much as we are. So, if we do overlap, we have no 20 apologies. You will notice that we demand a safety store 21 and so does he, and just so long as you have that material 22 available where the men can easily and conveniently get 23 safety equipment, we have no objection. We do not care if 24 it is in there four times, so long as we get the store. . 25 The organization which we will have to control health will consist of two physicians from men in industrial work in the Navy yards* Dr* Sessions was with us this summer on this tour, and he will he one of them* There will be six men, three of whom you will see this afternoon in the demonstration that we propose to give. They are engineers, and chemists trained especially m industrial medical manner on the prevention of disease* One of the doctor's headquarters will be in the east, and one in the west, and there will be two ensigns to cover the east coast and one to cover the west coast, one the Great Lakes, and one the Gulf, and I have to cover all the rest of them, and this gentleman (Mr* Ring) is our boss. Now, our Job is to help you. We will be available to come and see you and help you at anything that we can. We have had a couple of requests from yards now to go back on specific investigations, to see the hazards which they though that they had, or did have, and to help tell them ways of improving conditions, et cetera. That is what we are for, and that is what we are being paid for, and if you do not make use of us, or if you do not make us work for you, we will be self-liquidating and resigned. That is what the organization is set up to do, and if you do not make us work, then I think that that will be your fault. We can do it, and we would like to do it. Now, I beg of you to make notes and perhaps save your questions, but get this ready for this afternoon, Thanh you very much, (Applause) CHAIRMAN RING: Well, I Just had another demonstration of Harvard philosophy that has always been puzzling to me. If I am not mistaken, I heard Mr, Drinker Just now say that Mr, Roche and he wanted to apologize Jointly for overlapping, and two minutes later, he said, If you find any overlapping there, we have no apologies to make," Sooner or later, as years go on, I will find out how to assimilate those things. In the meantime, I think we ought to hear from the Navy who is Just as much Interested in this program as the Mari time Commission, and which is bearing an equal, if not a heavier brunt of the load and the expense. The cooperation that has been extended by the Navy has been something that has been fine, especially in Washington, There sometimes they find one agency and another quietly and politely fight ing with each other, I want to present to you at this time Lieutenant Commander D. E, Carlson, who is the Navy representative on safety and health, LIEUTENANT COMMANDER CARLSON: Thank you very much, Mr, Chairman, but I would like to say that Mr, Desjardines is one of our ch3rf engineers, and I Just want to say that we will cooperate with you to the fullest extent. However, we are going to sit back on the sidelines and let Mr. Ring boss 8hs the show. We are Just here in an assisting capacity. There are Just a couple of things that come to my mind at this time, and you are Just as much affected by them, and I have refer ence particularly to the manner in which we are being hit by the draft. You are going to have a special problem that you never had before, because you are going to have the lame and the blind, and not the female coming to you. Have you ever tried to put safety shoes on a girl? Well, you are going to have to do that very shortly. All I can say is regard to that is to try to get them. You are going to have trouble getting material; you are going to have especially consider able trouble in getting men. I know that we are having a dickens of a time now finding safety engineers, doctors, ' et cetera, because the doctors are practically all gone. They are all in uniform. We have got problems which each individual is going to have to solve himself, and the biggest help that we are going to be able to give will come from the Bureau of Medicine and Surgery in the Navy Department. We are going to loan the necessary officers to the Maritime Commission to carry along on that, and in that connection, I would like to present to you Commander Burton of the Surgeon General*8 office. COMMANDER OTTO L. BURTON: The only thing I have to say Is that the Surgeon General's office has promised all the cooperation that we can give to you and any medical help that they are going to need on this program ie available. So far as the program is concerned* I have nothing to say about that. It sounds very good to me. (Applause) CHAIRMAN RING: We all know the difficulties that have been caused so far as eye trouble is concerned, and we know that is one of our principal problems In arc flashes, ?hen a burn occurs, and the result is that you put a m a ^ s eye out of commission for a while, I would like to say that the organization in this country which has taken one of the lead ing roles in safety measures, so far as eyes are concerned, is the National Society for the Prevention of Blindness. The representative of that association is here today, and she is probably one of the leading ophthalmologists in the country. We have prevailed upon Dr. Hedwig S. Kuhn to come here from Hammond, Indiana, to give us a few words, and we have under stood that Dr. Kuhn will be here for any specialized assist ance which she can give during the entire session. I want to present to you at this time Dr. Hedwig S. Kuhn. DR, HEDWIG S. KUHN: Well, I do not know that there is much I can say after the reference to the lame, the blind, and the women all in one sentence. I do not know whether we are going to be able to help you very much or not, but we are going to try, and I think it is not only Just a question of goggles, but the actions that come from eyes after they are protected from goggles that I hope we can get across to 'X 1 you in the next couple of days I would Just like to say 2 at this time that the Joint oommittee of Industrial Ophthal 3 mologists, which is the official group of the A* M. A, and 4 American Academy of Ophthalmogol&ts are back of this industrial 5 work that has been suggested, and which it has been my pri 6 vilege to be associated with, and I hope that I can be of 7 some useful assistance to you. Thank you very much.(Applause) 8 CHAIRMAN RING: I now take a great deal of pleasure in 9 presenting to you Mr, John Roche of our Safety Department, 10 MR, JOHN ROCHE: When we started this program a few months 11 ago, Dan Ring told ms something he did not tell you. He said, 12 "Roche, our Job is to build ships, and we are not building as 13 many ships as we could' build if we were not having the acci- - 14 dents that were occurring in shipyards today," not 15 Now, we have/absolute and final records on the national 16 shipbuilding situation in this country today, but we have beer. 17 able to prepare estimates, and the National Safety Council 18 will shortly come out with a statement that if the accidents 19 had not occurred, if the time had not been lost, if the men 20 had not been killed, we would have built 101 more Victory 21 ships in the past year, and how we could use them right now. 22 This survey was undertaken then with the idea that we 23 were going to be practical, that it was not going to be an 24 idealistic scheme, cure-all, like some of the other things 25 that have been wished on the shipbuilding Industry, and a lot 29 1 of other industries in the last few years. So, what you get 2 today and That you will look: at this afternoon in the safety 3 part of this meeting, and the health part, are our ideas of 4 minimum standards, not complete accident prevention programs, 5 but the standards, the basis upon which you can build a sound 6 accident prevention program in your shipyards. 7 Let me say a word about the type of yard selected. We 8 did not go to the worst yard; we did not go to the best yard; 9 or to the biggest yard, or to the smallest yard. We tried 10 to get a representative sample of the shipbuilding industry. 11 We took from those samples the best things that they had in 12 their organization, and the plans for facts that I propose 13 for the minimum standards are the best things that are going 14 on in the shipbuilding industry today, as far as I was able 15 to discover on that survey, based on my past experience, 16 based on my conversations, and talks with shipyard men. 17 There is a definite need for standards. I have run 18 into every conceivable type of accident and record, every 19 possible type of safety committee, every possible type of 20 designation of responsibility to a safety department. 21 Now, the safety man migit be anything from a shipping 22 clerk to a vice-president. He might be the yard superinten 23 dent, or as in the case of some yards, he had a definite 24 and specific responsibility for the safety and health for 25 the men in his yard. 12hs 1 So, we are recommending standards. We do not say, how 2 ever, that if your yard does not comply with the standards in 3 every respect, that you must arbitrarily change from 'tfiat you 4 are doing to hat these minimum standards suggest. If you 5 are doing a better Job than the standards ask for, then 6 continue to do it. If you are not doing as good a Job, then 7 the least that can be asked is that you bring up your safety 8 department and health department and hygiene work to the 9 minimum standards that are required. 10 Now, I tried out this program on a group of gulneapigs 11 and I see a lot of them are here, that is, the proposed inlni- 12 mum standards for the safety in shipyards. There were 13 13 men from all sections of the country at that meeting, and we 14 held a meeting in Chicago and discussed theee proposed mini 15 mum standards and at their suggestions oertain corrections 16 and changes have been made in the proposed standards. They 17 are Included, so that you have right now in your hands, hat 18 represents a pretty good cross-section of opinion of the 19 shipbuilding industry on the type of standards they think 20 should be minimum. 21 Now, let me say firet, the dream of every safety enginee 22 is to sell his management, to get his management actively 23 in back of him, and to make management believe that safety 24 is Just as important as a safety engineer knows it is. That 25 is one of the toughest Jobs that a safety man has in any 13he 31 1 Industry, 2 These minimum standards, while they will not guarantee 3 to do that for you, certainly call for a specific action on 4 the part of management# They call for active and interested 5 cooperation, demonstrated by certain activities that will 6 show in no uncertain way that management is definitely in 7 ba<& of your yard program, and with that cooperation and 8 interest demonstrated, your Job is going to be considerably g easier* 10 The safety department has outlined a program, and we will n have some discussion on that this afternoon# We have tried 12 to designate the size of the safety department based on the 13 size of the yard* We have told them of their responsibilities 14 and ldiat they shall do and how they shall do it, according 15 to the minimum standards# ' 16 Now, they are not to be shipping clerks, but safety 17 directors and safety engineers, and they are to take the 18 responsibility and prevent accidents in the yards# 19 We are suggesting, too, certain types of report forms 20 which you will find in the back of the leaflet here, and they 21 are too elaborate to go througi at this time, and they will 22 be discussed this afternoon* 23 We have specified the type of committees# However, agal 24 let me stress minimum standards are what we are referring to. 25 There is a policy-forming committee, or a central committee, L4hs 6 1 a supervisor8 committee,.and the various inspection committeej 2 Nov, if you have more than that, use them, hut if you do not 3 have a policy-forming committee, and I regret to say that 4 many of the yards do not'have them, then you should have one, 5 and get the benefit of management's participation in your 6 deliberations upon safety problems, i&ich arise in the yard, 7 We specify employee training. Let me say this: I 8 visited training schools in every yard in every section of 9 the country, and they are doing a swell Job of craft train 10 ing, but they are doing a lousy Job of safety training. I * 11 alked into a welding school and saw the instructor sorting 12 without a helmet. I investigated the records of shipyards 13 and found that men 1*0 h a d taken craft training in those 14 welding schools were SO per oent more likely to have eye flasi 15 than were the men who did not have training. 1 found in one 16 yard that there was more time lost due to eye flash than all 17 the rest of the lost time from all of the other accidents 18 in these yards from anything else. ' 19 I found one yard where there were two days given off 20 for every eye flash, and in other yards all they did was to 21 get treated. We have no standards, and we are losing too 22 ,,uch time. Why? Because craft and safety training are not 23 properly correlated, and they must he. I am not going to , 24 elaborate on that, because that is Jack's Job to do that, 25 but I want you to know that there is that in the standards, and It will be elaborated on considerably. The Maritime Commission in setting up the standards, said that you must not set up standards, but give them tools with which to w>rk, and the first thing to do is create an organization, and that is not going to be a typical governmental organization. We are not going to hound you to death with two or three hundredl inspectors, but we are going to set up a consulting organiza tion which will be available to you, and itoich will be able to give you the help which you need when you want it, based on your monthly reports to the Maritime Commission. If your yard shows a need of help, you will get it, whether you want it or not, and I can see some of you smiling. Well, all that that means is.this: that we are going to review your records, and if you are above a general small industry average, then you can expect to receive a visit from the Maritime consultant, and have him offer his assistance to determine what is wrong, where your accident record is up, and *iat you can do to get the accident record where it be longs, Another thing, we are supplying 1he tools for you in addition to the organization, and one of the tools will be specific safety posters. I was never so inspired in my life as then I walked around the shipyards and saw such inspiring posters as Don't Have An Accident, "The Beet Safety Device Is A Careful Man. That was all the way up and down toe line 16he 34 1 from the building of ships, to the patriotic angle, and every 2 thing else, but nothing on specific safety practices ^iich 3 they need. There should be specific posters for burners, 4 stage riggers, crane operators, et cetera. 5 For example, ve have a man out in the Bay area in San 6 Francisco where we have a vAri.ety' of shipbuilding, making a 7 study. He is taking pictures, making sketches, and he is 8 becoming thoroughly familiar with shipbuilding operations. 9 That man is an artist, and a photographer. You can expect 10 within a short time now to hare specific and definite types 11 of posters for crafts on safety practices. 12 In addition to that, we will later on furnish you with 13 safety instruction cards, and such other material as you 14 may need. In addition, we will have sound film strips based 15 again on specific unsafe craft practices. 16 You all know about goggles. All I heard up and down 17 the Pacific coast was, "We are 5,000 pairs short. We need 18 them, but we can't get them." 19 Another yard says, "We are 10,000 pairs short," or 20 they will say, "We need hard hats," or, "We need shoes, we 21 cannot get them, and we are begging for them." Well, the 22 Maritime Commission is doing this for you. This is not a 23 promise, but a hope. We will go before the War Priorities 24 Board, and endeavor to secure better priorities ratings for 25 the manufacturers of safety equipment. The War Priorities Board generously gave the shipyards the best possible rating they could get, and then they turn around and give the safety equipment manufacturers a double X rating, and they cannot get the stuff to make the things you want. We are going to help you on that, and we are going to ask you to get down on your knees and pray very hard ifcen Roche and Ring and Drinker go down there and try to get a better rat ing for the manufacturers of equipment. Other things covered in the proposed minimum standards are eafe practices for welders. Now, again those are mini mum standards. I did not intend to go through, and I do not intend to go through the whole gamut of work practices for 1 the welders, the burners, or the chippers, or the practices of housekeeping, or handling of tools, but we have given you what we have found as a result of our etudy, because we believe that they were the things that caused the accidents in shipyards today. Now, if we have left anything out, we hope that you will say so, but the things that are in there have caused acci dents, and caueed a lot of them, and those of you that have studied your records know Just how many accidents they have caused. We propose later on to issue minimum standards for staging of scaffolds; we propose later on to issue minimum standards for fire protection, and they are not arbitrary 18hs 36 1 standards, but only suggestions and recommendations* The 2 consulting force of the Safety Ilvision of the Maritime 3 Commission will be glad to cooperate and help in every way 4 that it can in the development of such'standards in your 5 yards that will either meet or better Maritime standards. 6 One of our biggest problems was women* They always are* 7 More and more women a re being taken into shipyards. I have 8 heard all kinds of figures. They say eventually that eight g per cent, 24 per cent, 36 per cent will be in shipyards, but 10 no one really knows how many women we are going to use* All n of the 38-year-olds and over, now, have been eliminated from 12 the draft. Well, what does that mean? It means the younger 13 and more active men, skilled or non-ekllled, are going to be 14 taken for military service. We hope not, but it looks as 15 though they will, and that means that more women must be 16 ready to step in to fill their places. 17 Training will have to be developed for women, and the 18 question is will it be different from that given to. men? 19 What shall be included in addition to the training that we 20 are giving to the men? Those are Just a few of the problems 21 that we are faced with women in the shipyards. 22 You all know the common problem which*. I won*t touch on 23 here. That will take care of itself* If there is any doubt 24 about it, see me after the meeting, and I will tell you a 25 couple of stories based on that* O i 1 However, one of the biggest problems Is clothing for 2 women. I wrote to a lot of manufacturers for work clothing. 3 In fact, I wrote to 159 of them, and what you see here now 4 Is a representative sample of the work clothing being manu 5 factured for women. But, what are 6ome of the problems? 6 Here Is one for you to consider. Oftentimes, you have seen 7 In your own yard, If you have women employed, when a woman 6 welder wants to move over to another Job, she will coll up 9 her hose, put It over her shoulder, and then every few steps 10 she would take, she would have to hitch up her pants, be 11 cause the women are built a little differently from the men. 12 In other words, the women are wearing men's clothing. The 13 man, If you will picture him In your own mind, has a differed 14 figure from a woman. A man's body Is built straight up,and 15 down, and a woman on the other hand Is built In this manner 16 (illustrating). Do you see what I mean? Well, as a result 17 of that, the pants do not stay up. 18 Another problem Is, that most women shave under the 19 arms. They are wearing rough clothing, and they are wear 20 ing clothing that Is of a dyed material, and we are not 21 familiar with the specifications. It may run, and it may not 22 We are afraid of a dermatitis arm Infection. Well, what 23 should they have under their armpits? Should they have an 24 arm shield? Should they be built in? Should they be supplie 25 separately? Should we ask them to bring them from their own 20hs oo 1 home? Should we supply them? That is Just another one of 2 the problems that Is going to face us in the future. 3 Another thing, many times women disappear from their 4 jobs for about an hour. Well, there is a reason for that. 5 They are all dressed up in their uniform, and here is rtiat 6 vas described to me in the shipyard in Brooklyn. 7 First, they put on a suit of long underwear, then a 8 pair of khaki trousers, and women being as neat as they are, 9 W ill put on something over that, and I do not know why. Then 10 they have to go to the office, and they are gone for about 11 an hour, because it takes them about that long to get their 12 clothes off, and go to the office, and return, and then put 13 them back on again. The manufacturers have not recognised 14 the need for some convenient arrangement for women who are 15 working in shipyards, and brother, if you take an hour for 16 each woman in the morning and once in the afternoon, and 17 multiply that by the number of women you have in the ship 18 yards, and the number of shipyards you have in the country, 19 you will have lost a lot of hours in the building of Victory 20 ships, which is an essential activity at this time. 21 So, we have got to establish some standards there. 22 Shall clothing have cuffs? Shall there be cuffs on 23 trousers? Shall the clothing be made to hide the natural 24 curves and contour of the women, so that they will not be 25 exposed to the Jibes of the men in the yards, or shall the 0*7 1 clothing be designed so that you know It Is a woman and know 2 who is working alongside of you, or near you? Shall the 3 clothing be designed by a stylist as one of these hats down 4 here are designed by Cache at a considerable cost? In that 5 way, the women will feel pepped up and their morale raised, 6 because they feel that they have style work clothing to wear. 7 There are a lot of problems. Shall they have flat seam 4 8 pockets, or any pockets at all? Shall the clothing be flame 9 proof? If It Is flame-proof, iho should do it, the shipyard? 10 VSttio shouldpay for the worker*s clothing being made flame 11 proof, the worker or the shipyard? Should there be some 12 cooperative agreement? Those are only a few problems with 13 women. 14 What about separate lockers and locker rooms for them? 15 What about protection of their locker rooms? What about 16 transportation? What do you do with them at night when they 17 are working on the graveyard shift, or the swing shift? Those 18 are Just a few of the things that you will have to be think 19 ing about. 20 Now, another one of the tools we are going to give you 21 is a safety contest. Every person I talked to on this tour, 22 and evdry person I talked to since, has been interested, as 23 has the Maritime Commission, and particularly JohnKoofly, in 24 a national shipyard accident prevention contest for ehich 25 suitable awards will be made. I have 100 copies of suggested 40 1 rules for such a contest on that table and I wish those of 2 you who are interested would get copies of those rules and 3 study them and please write me wherein you think they should 4 be changed so we can get this contest under way starting 5 January 1, and continue up until December 31, 1943. 6 Now, in the safety setup, as I said before, we were not 7 going to build up an organization of about 500 men to come 8 around and plague you* You know they are investigating some 9 of them now, and it probably would not be long until they 10 starting investigating governmental organizations to find 11 out what they are doing, and getting paid for. We are going 12 to have four men, one in each region, fao will serve and act 13 with you as safety consultants, and assist you in your 14 safety problems* Each of them have lots of experience in 15 shipyards, and plenty of experience in safety, plus addi 16 tional training that is proposed to give them before they 17 actually go to work in the district* They are at your dis 18 posal, and you are urged to use them, and as I said before, 19 you will use them whether you want to or not, if your acci 20 dent record does not come up to the general industrial averagd 21 Now, this afternoon, we will meet in the American Room 22 at two o 'clock for all those people who are interested in 23 safety, and I am going to ask you to please bring with you 24 your minimum standards for safety with such corrections and 25 suggestions as you wish to have Included in the discussion* ' 41 1 One of the things I have left out I see, and I have It 2 here In M g capital letters, Is the safety supply store. We 3 are definitely recommending that a safety supply store he 4 Installed In allyards. I know you are smiling about that, 5 but we will stand behind that recommendation until hell 6 freezes over. We do not believe that men should be compelled 7 to go Into the city and pay retail store prices for safety 8 equipment that Is needed for specialized work. It Is our 9 opinion that they should be given the opportunity to purchase 10 that material In the shipyard, or If not, that then to have 11 It Issued as the property of the shipyards. 12 Now, that may sound like a rather tougjh recommendation, 13 but in one yard I know of, they could not get safety equip 14 ment for their men and they w e e not able to keep it on their 15 men, until they adopted the practice of buying all of the 16 equipment themselves and Issuing it on check. Then, they 17 were able to give them the equipment. 18 Now, there is a certain turnover in shipyards. That has 19 been discussed from time to time, and they were then able to 20 get the old equipment back, sterilize It, and reissue it to 21 * the new men coming into the yards, and there has been only 22 one slight drawback to that at the present time, and that is 23 that the men refused to turn in the hard hats, or refused to 24 turn in the goggles, because they knew darn well that the 25 next shipyard they went to they could not get them, and they 1 conveniently lost them and paid for them. I know that that 2 has happened to a lot of you. 3 Those are about all of the remarks I would like to make 4 on these minimum standards at this time. This afternoon, 5 we will take our coats off and our hair down, and really go 6 to town on it. Thank you very much, gentlemen. (Applause) 7 CHAIRMAN RING: I was Just exchanging a few side re 8 marks with the representative of the Navy during Mr. Rochefs 9 talk, and there is something that occurred there that is 10 very, very outstanding. The Alabama, the battleship, they 11 tell me has been launched, or it has been commissioned, after 12 about 24 million man hours, approximately, has been launched 13 without a single fatallity. That is quite a record. (Applause) 14 The seoond thing that I learned, and I was almost bowled 15 over, is that the New Jersey has been launched, and not yet 16 commissioned or shipped out, but has been launched after 17 about 18 million man hours, and also no fatality there. 18 (Applause) . 19 Now, that is quite a record. And I thought you would 20 all like to know it, because the Navy has in their yard, pre 21 sented a very strong appeal for safety, and safety precau 22 tions. It seems that it is bearing results. 23 Now, we have with us Mr. Wolff, who is an expert on 24 training. I am calling them all experts, because any expert 25 should be called an expert* An expert apparently is somebody s u 1 ho feels that the general publie is taking him at too high 2 a value simply because he can talk in terms that the general S public cannot understand. Along that line, with respect to 4 the assignment of rooms to this afternoon's session, I think 5 that Drinker is about the best expert I have ever seen. 6 Jack Wolff has been in this training business from ' 7 scratch, and he went from nothing up to twentyfive or thirty 8 thousand people. He knows the picture on training, and he 9 has been making tours all over the country, and after he has 10 been in a plant, I might say about three or four days later, 11 somebody calls up Washington and says, "Wolff was up here a 12 few days ago telling us about the training setup, and I 13 wonder how soon we can* get him back." We ask them what they 14 would like to have him back for, and they say, "There are 15 some other things that we want to ask him about." 16 So, these fellows when they are out in the field putting 17 something over, that is one of the finest tests I know of 18 when they are asking for him to come back. That has happened 19 several times, and I want to present to you at this time Mr. 20 Jack Wolff. 21 MR. JACK WOLFF: One of the things that perhaps is most 22 interesting, and perhaps means the most about what we have 23 been listening to today, and what we are here to work on, 24 is that finally the recognition has come to those in places 25 of responsibility that it is a human element that we have to 26he . ' 44 1 depend on most to build these ships, When we speak of safety 2 and health, we do it because no matter how much equipment you 3 have in your yard, no matter how much material is over there 4 on the sidetrack waiting to be lifted on the hull, it is the 5 human element that controls the amount steel that is necessary 6 Does that check? 7 Now, experts can come along, as we have heard them this 8 morning, and they can outline minimum safety standards, and 9 they can outline minimum health standards, and they can set 10 them up, but they cannot make than work by themselves. It 11 takes something more than that, and until it works, it is not 12 worth a damn. It has got to work before it will produce ships 13 Now, these safety standards can be set up by you folks 14 who are experts in safety. Our management can be sold on them 15 and can issue instructions telling the yards that those safety 16 standards and those minimum health standards are to be followers 17 They can give directions, but that still does not do the Job, 18 because we have seen a lot of orders issued, and they have 19 been either forgotten, or definitely violated, because some 20 body thought that they were Just somebody's wild idea. We 21 can 0 eonething else. Vie can put posters up ana John Roche 22 mentioned posters. 23 Now, It le very Interesting about posters. We see posters 24 for a little while, ana pretty soon we ao not aee them at all. 25 It is Just like a nan who eplllea eone gravy on his vest. The1 ic 1 first day he was very conscious of that gravy spot, hut after 2 the second or third day, he did not notice It at all, hut all 3 of his friends did see It. Now, that works, because It Is 4 easily checked. All you have to do Is put a sign or a poster 5 up In a prominent location, leave that poster there for a few 6 days, and then change It, and repeat that frequently, and then 7 make a survey of your y ard, and ask any man you come to what 8 Is on the poster that Is out there on the main gate, the 9 poster that looks down on you as you come Into the yard If 10 you get two per cent of the men who can tell you just what Is 11 on that poster, figure that you are lucky, because you have 12 got a higher percentage than you are expected to get. We have 13 tried that already. ' 14 Now, that does not have to do only with safety posters, 15 hut we have asked them the same thing about fire extinguishers. 16 We have asked them where the nearest fire extinguisher could 17 he located. For example, If this room caught on fire, where 18 would you go for the nearest fire extinguisher, and out of 19 50 or 60 men In a series of conferences, supervisors, mind 20 you, there was not a one of them who knew where he could go 21 to find a fire extinguisher, and every one of them passed with 22 in two feet of one before coming Into the room. 23 So, we cannot depend too much on posters, and on signs, 24 because pretty soon we become immunized to them, and we do 25 not see them any more* 28hs 44 46 There is another thing we are up against when we formu late our ideas and formulate standards and programs. We make them Just as air-tight as we possibly can, and then we put them out in the field, and we say, "Brother, here it is, this has been worked out by the brains, and this is what we want you to follow. It is all rigit here, and everything is out lined to you on the safety and health programs,* and then we go on down with a list of the health and safety solutions, how to get around those hazards, and then we say, "Now, think safety, and think health", but how can a man think safety and think health when somebody has Just given him all of the answers? We no longer think about a thing that we do not worry about, or that we do not wonder about, or that we are not curious about, so that as soon as we get the answers we stop thinking about them. It is almost like the International Business Machines that we see wherever we go. In other words, there are a lot of International Business Machines that Just do everything automatically a hundred times faster than a human can do them, and they are all over the room, and all around the room you will see a sign, "Think". Well, there is nothing more for those boys or girls to think about, because the machines do it all, and they do not think, and they become automatic, unless you call wondering 1 about that date that they are going to have that evening 2 that they fill be thinking about, is what you are referring S to. They can do that, because they have plenty of time to 4 do it, because the machine is doing their work for them. 5 Another thing is if we give all of the answers to the 6 men in the field and in the yard, very shortly they say, 7 "Well, of course, that is pretty dangerous, and that ought 8 to be fixed, but we have got a safety engineer here, and that 9 is his problem, and hie worry. We will let him do all of the 10 worrying about that." Does that happen? Sure it does. It 11 happens right along. 12 One of the things that we have to do if we are going 13 to cut down safety and health hazards in a yard is to let 14 the men in the yard, the welders, the burners, the ship 15 wright, the ship fitters, and all the rest of them, the time 16 checkers, and those that are actually working as mechanics, 17 those who are working as helpers, those who are working in 18 Jobs that are supposed to be dangerous, to let them know 19 that we need their help Just as much as they need ours. 20 They said here this morning that training was one of 21 the things which was very necessary. Noy, we can do train 22 ing or attempt to fib training in two different ways. We can 23 make it an informative sort of thing. We can start out by 24 giving them the answers and telling them what they outfit to 25 do, and then all they have to do is follow of those notes, 1 or we can do It the other way. We can ask their help in "2 determining what we are up against, and what we ought to do 3 to correct it. 4 Take one of the craft instructors, for example. Here 5 comes a beginner in who is going to be a welder. You can get 6 this welder to go through a course in welding and you Just 7 heard that a few moments ago, and the amount of eye flashes 8 which are suffered in the shipyards, and that the biggest 9 percentage of them occurred to those who had Just finished a 10 course in welding. 11 In other words, it was obvious safety had not been in 12 cluded. Now, there may be a reason for that, and one of the 13 reasons is maybe that the welding superintendent, or the weld 14 ing supervisor was not asked in to help work out a program 15 for te|ching welders. Consequently, somebody in a school up 16 town, or somebody in a school someplace else worked up a 17 program for teaching welders and all he thought about was that 18 there was a certain seam that had to be welded, for in hori 19 zontal position, and then in a vertical position, and in an 20 overhead position, and so all he did was to train those people 21 to weld those seams under those conditions in those positions, 22 and it never occurred to him when they get out of there, where 23 they are not surrounded by a booth with a curtain in the back 24 of them, and on to a platform ifcere welders are working all 25 around them, that they would not know how to take care of them- 49 1 selves. 2 Fell, If we want to correct those situations, maybe we 3 had better get the welding department to get in there with 4 us to help us work out a program for the proper training of 5 people to be able to do the things which are required, once 6 they get into the shipyards. If we do that, it means that 7 the safety department will come to the training department, 8 and the two of them will get together and pull in the weld- 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 . 21 22 23 24 25 ing department, and the welding department and the safety department and the training department will work out a method which will include safety practices, safety hazards, safety procedures, as well as the technique, or the technical side of welding. Does that check? Now, one of the ways in which the safety engineers and the doctors, and somehow or another I am speaking now of the fellow who has been around various shipyards as a shipyard employee, one of the things that we run into is that very few people know the company doctor. Does that check? Very few people know the company doctor. About the only contact that the man might have with the medical end of it, or the health end of it is rtien he has a burn, or a flash, or some accident that brings him to the first-aid station. That is his first contact. When he gets in there, there is a young woman ifco takes a record of what happened to him, and another nurse fixes him up in a hurry, and he is on his way out, and 50 that ha. been hi. only eontact bo far a. health In the ship, yard is concerned* At other times he may come into first-aid because he may have a very sore throat. Now, you who are on a monthly salary, would probably go home on account of that sore throat I mean, it is poeslble that he might, but if he is on an hourly basis, he will not want to go home, because he will not want to lose the day's pay, and so they swab his throat. They are beginning to do it more and more now. I have heard quite a bit of discussion already as to whether it was good practice for the first-aid to do some thing for a man which does not involve an industrial injury. I have heard discussions pro and con with the predominating note seeming to be that we really ought to take care of the fellow, although it is a non-industrial injury, because it will help us to get some work out of that man that we would not get otherwise. In other words, he would go home, if he were not given that attention. f Still, when the safety and health standards are being set up it will be a little bit easier to work up a setup of that kind. Now, if those responsible for health in the shipyards, and those responsible for safety in the shipyards, will go to the supervisors who are directly involved, for the correction of something that needs to be done, and ask those particular 33hs % 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 51 Individuals to work out all of tha difficulties that lie in their way. by they cannot do those things, and then for each one of those difficulties, or obstacles, they work out a specific solution. Safety and health are certain produc tion objectives, aren't they7 W, can call on the supervisors to help us in working out why sons of these objectives are difficult to attain. In cutting down lost time, accidents, for lnetanoe, you will be improving production, and when you are able to show that to the supervisors, they will begin to show you all kind,; of reasons why what you are suggesting would be Impossible to do. However, then they would begin to think about the matter and go over all of the work, and work out what they believe would be a way of getting around every one of those obstacles, and iben they were through there is not a safety engineer in the yard, or in any yard, that would not have run across a 17 great number of things which he otherwise would have over 18 looked, which will help him to do a better safety Job in 19 that yard. 20 What else have we? Those supervisors who helped him 21 work out a better program, by discovering some hazards which 22 have previously been overlooked, and then by working out some 23 solutions for each one of those hazards, each one of those 24 men from then on, would be safety minded, ffliy? Because safet 25 has become their baby. Doesthat check? 52 1 Nor, there is another group here whom we have not men 2 tioned a great deal about, and that is the labor management 3 committee* Those people who represent the labor management 4 committee* Now, the idea of the labor management committee 5 was to help push production, to help cut out the things that 6 causes loss of production, and substitute for them methods 7 which will help production. 8 Now, we can do two things with labor management commit g tees. We can get them to deciding what kind of a poster 10 would be the best to place out in the yard; we can set them ii to doing any number of things which would not infringe on 12 management's prerogative in running the yard, because perhaps 13 in some cases we may be afraid that they will take some of 14 our prerogatives and so we will try to keep them from work 15 ing on anything which will involve some sort of a decision, 16 or we can put up some of these things pertaining to safety 17 hazards to them, and ask their help in developing what those 18 hazards to safety and health really are, and believe me there 19 are plenty. 20 I happen to know of one shipyard in which at a labor 21 management committee meeting, the subject of tin cups came 22 up in which the caterer had a lot of wagons around the yard, 23 and they were serving coffee in tin cups with rolled edges 24 underneath. Have you ever checked to see how those tin cups 25 are washed? Do you know how they are washed? Well, if you 53 1 ever looked at them washing them* you would never take a 2 drink out of those cups again. That is the way they are 3 washed, and that is the way thousands of men have to drink 4 their coffee out of those tin cups. That is why quite a 5 large percentage of sore mouths were developing in the yard. 6 The labor-management committee in that yard took that 7 into consideration, and they made a report on it, and for a 8 brief period, a couple of days, three or four, perhaps, the 9 men were served paper cups, but after three or four days, 10 the tin cups were back again, and nobody did anything about 11 it. 12 That is an illustration of how in the safety and health 13 end of it there should be a closer tie-in between labor 14 management committees and the health officers, or those who 15 are responsible for the health end of the shipyard and also 16 the safety engineers. Does that check? 17 We might be pretty safe in saying that unless you safet; 18 engineers and unless you doctors make a setup through which 19 you can utilise the training facilities in that yard, to 20 actually put the problems right up to the men themselves, 21 don*t even try to put all of the problems up to them, but 22 put up to them i&at you are trying to accomplish in the yard 23 and then ask them to tell you the reasons itiiy you wonft 24 accomplish it, and then still hold yourselves in check and 25 do not let yourselvee give them the answers, and then ask t l 5(5 1 to figure out for you the best way of getting around each 2 one of those reasons, why you cannot reach that safety or 3 health objective, and you will come up with two things. You 4 come up with some hazards which you have previously 5 overlooked; you will come up with some methods of solving 6 those hazards or getting around them, which you have pre 7 viously overlooked, and the eecond big thing is that you B will have that shipyard organization completely behind you 9 in your efforts to make the yard safer, and more healthful. 10 That means that you will be taking the brake off production, 11 which is put there by accidents and sub--normal health. Thank I 12 you very much, (Applause) 13 CHAIRMAN RING; -Now, I think one of the worst crimes 14 that any conference commits is to overburden conferences 15 with too much talk, and too much material at one time. Well, 16 we will meet again this afternoon at two o'clock. There is 17 only one other item that I think we should go into this 18 morning, and that is with relation to statistics. Now, 19 statistics are the bane of most production men's lives. We 20 hear about all of the questionnaires that are going out from 21 Government agencies with respect to them. On the safety pro 22 gram you will find a form which we hope can be made standardi 23 zed for all statistics in the shipyards that are represented 24 in the Maritime-Navy program. 25 We have here with us today Mr, Max Kassorls of the 1 Bureau of Labor Statistics, Ih o is willing and desirous of 2 extending the full cooperation of that Bureau to our group. 3 Now, let me say this: There is going to be no yardstick 4 whereby we can gauge the proficiency of one yard against the 5 laxity of another, unless we have our statistical data on 6 the same las is, or on the same basic plan, Ve do not want to 7 go into a ramified and diverse statistical exploration, but 8 what we do need, though, and what we will ask you to give 9 your attention to this afternoon is the study of the statis 10 tical forms that you will find attached to your safety mini 11 mum standards . 12 Before we go into the huddle this afternoon, and so that 13 you will know Hr Kassoris, I would like to ask him to come 14 up here and say hello to you, and tellyou in brief Just what 15 the story on statistics is. - 16 MR, MAX KASSORIS: I came up here primarily to sit in 17 on the discussions in connection with the forms that have 18 been suggested, to get your reactions to them, I want to 19 see whether or not you have any suggestions for their improve 20 ment so that they will give us a little better indication of 21 what causes accidents in the yards, and how we can better 22 keep track of what is happening. I do not want to burden you 23 with any discussion of the details on the form, because we 24 will go into that this afternoon. We of the Department of 25 Labor, and specifically the Bureau of Labor Statistics, are 5' 1 very happy to be of service In this connection, and to assist 2 In the development of the type of Information which will help S both you In the yards and the people In the Maritime Commis 4 sion, and other Governmental agencies, to know how the yards 5 are coming along with the safety program and'througi the 6 medium of statistics, to indicate to them the danger signals, 7 the sore spots, to which they can in turn direct their atten 8 tion. 9 I want to assure you of one thing. I have no use for 10 statistics as such. They are valuable to us only for the 11 same reason that they are valuable and should be valuable to 12 you, and that is as signs, or danger signals, or as tests, 13 of good performance. Now, to the extent that they can per 14 form that function, they can be of value, and we will do the 15 utmost to put at your disposal the facilities that we have. 16 To the extent that they are of no particular value to you, I 17 want to assure you that we will be the last one to burden you 18 with anything that will have no use to either you or us. 19 Thank you very much. (Applause) 20 CHAIRMAN RING: Now, we are running toward the close of 21 the morning seseion. I think we ought to have a resume now to 22 see exactly there we have gone, and what has happened. First, 23 you have had a group of men who have made a tour of this 24 country to ascertain what the facts are, and present to you 25 their reactions as to what is needed with respect to health  ' 39hs ' - II 1 and safety and training. 57 We have received the cooperation 2 of persons who are outstanding in their line with respect 3 to the development of this program. We want now to go into 4 a phase idiereby everybody will actively participate in .the 5 formulation of these standards, and that will occur this 6 afternoon when we break up into two groups, one from the 7 medical side, and one from the health elde. 8 Dr. Drinker will be in charge of the discuseion from 9 the medical side, and Mr. Roche from the safety side. Now, 10 there is one thing I would like to ask all of those who have 11 not done, and be sure to do, because we want a complete 12 record of this conference, and that is with respect to 13 .registration. If you have not filled out a card showing 14 that you are here, and giving us the data concerning your 15 company, address, et cetera, I hope that you will do so, be- 16 cause we would be very happy to have that information. 17 I want to say that the attention has been given this 18 morning, and the reception that has been given to those of 19 us who have spoken has been something that brings to me a 20 great deal of satisfaction. I hope that nobody will pull any 21 punches this afternoon. The only way that we in this country 22 get by, and develop things, is by having our own ideas clearly 23 I presented. If we do not agree with a thing, at least here in 24 this country, we can step up and say that is whacky, and here 25 is why I think it is whacky, and it is the only way in which 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 i 23 24 25 58 TO have been able to progress In the way that we have. So, roll up your sleeves, and get down to work this afternoon, and let us bring out of this some real practical constructive standards that will be of benefit to the million men who will soon be working in the shipyards. The attention that is given men's health In the armed services Is very, very pronounced. We can do no less for those who are In the Army, and the men who are backing the services up too, be cause 1hls war unlike any ether war, presents a heme front that is more Important than any other home front ever has been In the -history of the world. This 1, a mechanised war, and the ones who provide the machines and the Instrumentali ties of transportation to get the machines where they are leeded to participate In the war Is very Important, and every m e of you are participating in this just as much as If you rere out there on the front lines with a Garand rifle. Now, again I want to thank you for the attention that as been given to everyone, and although after conferences time comes hen we have to get down to desks again and teady things that are possibly dry, nevertheless, the outome of it will be something, I think, if we give sufficient ttention to it, that you will be proud of. I call your fctention again to the exhibits that are here that will be Bady for inspection, and I hope that you will enjoy the emonstratlons that have been prepared for you. 59 1 Again, let me thank you for coming from all over the 2 country to this conference, and also for your kind attention, 3 and I hope that you will he able to work these standards out 4 in such a way that the whole industry will receive the maxi 6 mum possible benefits from you. 6 (Whereupon, at 12 o Td o c k noon, a recess tbs taken.) 7 8 9 -- oOo-- 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 60 1 UNITED STATES MARITIME COMMISSION 2 : 3 MEETING IN REGARD TO THE MINIMUM STANDARDS : 4 FOR THE CONTROL OF HEALTH IN CONTRACT SHIP- : 5 YARDS OF THE MARITIME COMMISSION AND NAVY. 6 : : 7 Held in the American Room, Hotel LaSalle Chicago, 8 Illinois, on Monday, December 7, 1942, at two o'clock p.m., g Dr* Philip Drinker, Department of Industrial Hygiene, School 10 of Public Health, Harvard University, Boston, Massachusetts, n presiding. 12 -- 0 - - _ 13 CHAIRMAN DRINKER! Gentlemen, we want to discuss in some 14 detail the suggestions for the so-called medical standards, 15 and then we want to give you some short demonstrations on 16 some particular elements we want to bring out, and it is our 17 hope that this will be very informal so we oan break in and 18 ask questions or make suggestions as we go along. 19 Do you all have ooples of this? If not, we will give 20 you some more; this minimum standards for the control of 21 health! 22 Have any of you had a chance to look at these? It is 23 all right to ask you to orltlclze them now as we go along. 24 That is what we want to get. Now, how about the first part 25 on personnel? ' .. . . 61 1 DR* 7. E. RIEKE, (Medical Direotor, Oregon Shipbuilding 2 Corporation, Portland, Oregoifc You have too few clerks on 3 that, for one thing. 4 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: Too few clerksT . 5 DR. RIEKE: I think so. 6 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: How about ambulance facilities, is 7 that all right! 8 DR. D. A. McCOY, (Liberty Mutual Insuranee Company, 9 Medical Research, Industrial Division, Boston, Massachusetts 10 Why not have Instead of a passenger car a station wagon? 11 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: Because we were not sure we could get 12 it. If we could get a station wagon, we will put it in. It 13 is a good suggestion. You mean that as a stand-by? 14 DR. McCOI: That is right. Doesn't the A m y or Navy or 15 the Maritime Commission have authority to pick up such things 16 from the public? 17 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: We can get them. 18 DR. MoCOY: You can get them? 19 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: Yes, within reason. That is a good 20 suggestion. Are there any other suggestions in that first 21 part, under personnel? 22 MR. LESTER P. BECK,(Chief, Navy Insurance Division, 23 Offlee of Procurement and Material, Washington, D. C.): 24 How frequently are you going to examine the men that are 25 subjeet to those occupational disease hazards? CHAIRMAN DRINKER: That ooaes a little bit later. Could . 62 1 we postpone that? " 2 MH* BECK: It does have a direct effect on the number of 3 doctors per thousand employees* 4 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: I agree with you, but that will oome 5 a little later* ' 6 MR* LOUIS S, RELLER, (The Ingalls Shipbuilding Corp., 7 Pascagoula, Mississippi): In our yard we use a station wagon 8 inside the yard to detract attention, and when the case goes 9 out of the yard we have a regular ambulance, which is used at 10 the side entrance instead of the main entranee, which passes 11 the employment office* 12 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: We certainly would not take any ex 13 ception to changes like, that, from the Maritime standpoint* 14 I think that is something that the local yard could do, and 15 we surely would not make any objection* Do you think we 16 should try to put that through for the others? 17 MR* HELLER: No; I answered the question upon the re 18 quest of Dr* Croft. 19 DR* THEODORE O* CROFT, (St* John's River Shipbuilding 20 Company, Jacksonville, Florida): In regard to personnel, the 21 first requirement in there is that they have all-time medical 22 men* In our looality that is practically impossible* Out 23 of our town we have fifty men in the service, and there are 24 probably only about five or six left that are available* We 25 are away above our quota, and the only men that I have had - - 63 1 apply to me for work hare been drug addicts and men who have 2 made absolute failures of their lives. Now, those men are 3 inadequate* They are not the type of men we want. Is It 4 possible in some way to get some younger men, or men that 5 would give up their practice, to come as all-time men? The 6 men are worked to death* They make three times as much or 7 four times as much as they would on an all-time Job, and it 8 is praetleally impossible to get men for full-time Jobs* 9 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: That same situation applies to quite 10 a few yards now. 11 DR* CROFT: Is there any solution to It? 12 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: We think there is* Some of us do not 13 think that the distribution of doctors to the forces has been 14 quite as fair as it should be, in view of the shipbuilding 15 program, and some of the other manufacturers, and we hope to 16 get some of them back again, frankly* 17 DR. CROFT: Our part of the country has been rather 18 liberal* In fact, we have gone over our quota* I am not an 19 industrial surgeon* I am Just simply a surgeon that went 20 in to take care of the injured men, and now this whole prob 21 lem is thrown in my lap to take care of the whole business* 22 Frankly, I am up here to learn something so I can help take 23 care of the shipyards* 24 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: We saw the same situation in a num 25 ber of places* I talked to Dr* Leahy in Boston, and he came \J - 1 right out and e&ld that manufacturing centers like New York, 2 Massachusetts, New Jersey and Illinois, and so on, are the 3 ones that are not over their quota, and some of the Southern 4 states, generally, sore way over, and they have been depleted 5 in doctors as a result, and the manufacturing states have 6 not subscribed their quota* Some sort of a redistricting is 7 inevitable* I imagine that is one of the Jobs that Mr. McNutt 8 has Just had landed in his lap* I do not think there is 9 anybody today who oan say what the solution is going to be, 10 but we are thoroughly aware of it, and we are also aware 11 that there are quite a few yards that cannot live up to 12 these suggestions of personnel. You simply cannot get them 13 for exactly the reason you gave. We have seen two or three 14 yards in precisely the situation you have, where they have 15 surgeons who have done no industrial work at all, but have 16 gone in to help because they know help is needed* 17 I know that does not answer your question, but if yo 18 eould get them, is this a reasonable distribution of per 19 sonnel? 20 DR* 8* R* GARFIELD, (Richmond Shipyards, Vancouver - 21 Kaiser Company)! As a possible answer to the Doctor, when I 22 was in Washington, the Public Health Department stated that 23 if the Maritime Commission would make the request to them, 24 they eould assign doctors to those areas where they cannot 25 get doctors any other way* 65 1 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: I know that has been suggested for 2 several of the Gulf states where there is a shortage in the 3 maritime and navy yards, to reassign some doctors from either 4 the Fublie Health Service, or the Army or the Navy, 5 UR. KELLER: They won't do that, 6 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: I think they will, 7 ME, RELLER: The Navy won't, because we have a doctor 8 down there taking eare of about four hundred soldiers, and 9 we would like to borrow him to take eare of physicals, and 10 he wants to come in, and he is just sitting around twiddling 11 his fingers, and we can't get him to eome, 12 DR, GARFIELD: The Fublie Health Department said they 13 would if the Maritime Commission requested them to, 14 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: I know that, too, 15 UR, EECK: Dr, Drinker, can we talk to the physical 16 facilities? 17 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: Yes, 18 MR, BECK: I would Just like to volunteer, as a matter 19 of information, that the Navy Department has developed and 20 will have available standard ssts of hospital plans in the 21 yards, if you want to have them, that have been worked out with the cooperation of the National Industrial Hygiene Divi 22 sion of the National Fublie Health Service of the Surgeon- 23 General's office, and the hospital design section of the Navy, 24 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: Again, I do not believe that is a 25 1 question of the disapproval of the plans, it is a question z of getting the necessary approval of dispensing the funds 3 to carry them out* The Navy has not approved that. 4 ICR. BECK* I merely have volunteered that as information & to show that we should put together the people who are con 6 cerned about it, and who can plan the functions of a hospital, 7 anh the hospital being laid out to give the minimum amount 8 of space that can be used for the various functions to be 9 performed. 10 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: I do not think the yards ere lacking 11 in knowledge of what to do. It is the inability to get 12 authorization to do it on these physical facilities, as far 13 as the medical ones go. 14 Is there any other discussion on the physical facilities? 15 DR. L* C. SPENCER, (Medical Director, Southeastern Ship 16 building Corporation, and UacEvoy Shipbuilding Corporation, 17 Savannah, Georgia): I would like to ask for some recommenda 18 tion in regard to sex and color. 19 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: We have not tried to evade that, but, 20 again, what is to be done about that will vary a lot with the 21 geography. It depends on where the yard is. The fact that 22 you have got to have that means practically four sets of. 23 facilities in the South; not always in the North, but it does 24 In most of the South. 25 DR. SPENCER: Would you regard that as a reasonable re- U v 1 3ueBt, at least, segregation of color? 2 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: I do not see any way to erade it* 3 iou have the yard, and that is where we want the yard. We 4 arei not in a position to say you should or you should not do 5 Lt, with the tradition of the neighborhood* Iou would have 6 to do it that way* I think we have to accept it as we find 7 Lt. We agrpe with it* 8 DR* W* J* REIN, (Delta Shipbuilding Company, New Orleans, 9 Louisiana): Are the Maritime Commission going to request 10 that these notes you have here be the minimum requirements of 11 the yard? 12 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: Yes, they are* 13 DR* REIN: The reason I ask that is we do not have any 14 thing like what you are asking for here* We have the doctors, 15 we have not these other facilities* We also Just recent 16 ly completed our new first aid station, but it does not come 17 close to measuring up to your minimum standards here* Of 18 course, that is a matter of finances* But the other money 19 will be coming in for extra help* 20 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: Yes* 21 DR* CHARLES C* ADAMS, (Hookers Point Shipyard, Tampa, Florida): I am representing one of the youngest branches, 22 perhaps, of the industry* We are building reinforced con 23 crete ships down there, or trying to* 24 Answering the doctor from Savannah, or along those lines, 25 6 8 1 we have a flret aid station with separate waiting rooms. The ^2 dressing room Is separate from the surgery, and the redress 3 lng Is a rather long room, perhaps as wide as between these 4 posts, and one end Is for the colored people and the other . 5 end for the whites. Of course, we do not have a large per 6 oentage of women at the present time* 7 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: You probably will have, though. B DR. ADAMS: The chances are we will. It is proposed, 9 possibly, with an additional first aid station In another 10 place In the yard that we will have a very large facility 11 there spread out over quite a big area, and the suggestion 12 In these notes was that no one should go over four hundred 13 yards to the first aid station, and that is not possible, 14 In our set-up. I am the only physician In attendance. We 15 do not attempt to keep any patients overnight. If a man is 16 too critically hurt, and as we are close to the hospital 17 facilities, they are sent there, and the men in town take- care 18 of those cases. I am merely on the yard, and I have nurses 19 around the clock distributed so as to take oare of our load. 20 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: Do you think four hundred yards is 21 impossible?. 22 DR, ADAMS: The four hundred yards suggestion is a good 23 suggestion, but it is not going to work in many places if 24 you spread out much. 25 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: What do some of the others think about 59 1 that? 2 DIU RIEKE: The Vancouver yard Is probably the busiest 3 one In our area, and that le solved in this ways We are put 4 ting what we ohoose to oall sub-stations on the ways, one 6 or two on the ways, depending on the number of ways The 6 same thing Is true In the Oregon and Swan Island yards 7 There will be one In Vancouver on the outfitting, one In the 8 assembly and plate shops You can get away from the diffi 9 culty of distance, and I think you will find In those that 10 are the greatest In population that that will take the load 11 off the main station* In other words, use your small stations 12 as screening stations, probably, with a nurse at each station* 13 How, it may be that you will need a nurse in the station aroun 14 the clock* It depends entirely on your swing and graveyard , 0 15 shifts 16 . The only objection which I had In starting that system 17 le the problem of keeping adequate medical records on those 18 Individuals which you take eare of In sub-stations That is 19 an objection which will have to be taken oare of There Is 20 no other way of doing It The distances become too great 21 In the yard to ask all of your medical staff to come to one 22 station* They are forolng me Into that largely because I 23 have come to that Idea simply because we are not seeing a lot 24 of the stuff from farther out 25 Your four hundred yard figure is easily a maximum dls- 7U 1 tanee* To expect them to come In with their minor cute and 2 scratches, if you don't have your station closer than that, 3 means you will miss a lot of them, and the desideratum is 4 to get bandages on all of them, not only so you will have a but 5 record to protect the workmen,/to get the small stuff before 6 it goes up* 7 PR* ADAMS: Now, I saw one thing there; do you make out 8 the standard compensation forms on every patient? 9 PR. RIEKE: No, we do not. We attempt to keep a first 10 aid record as to how the accident occurred, the nature of 11 the injury, the identity of the workman, the date, and so on. 12 PR. ADAMS: That is very similar to what we use. We 13 use a 4 x 6 card, and that simply fits in with our experi 14 ence. It takes about 80 per cent of the time of the nurse 15 per patient for your record, and about 40 per cent for your 16 treatment* 17 DR. RIEKE: Your answer there is to get clerks. That 18 is why I say more clerks, and less nurses. Our olerks work 19 about half time. We hire them for full-time, but they are 20 only there about half the time. 21 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: The suggestion was made to me this 22 morning that there should be a separate room for patients; 23 that is, patients that are coming in for retreatment, so 24 they won't get mixed up with the others, just to make it 25 easier to get them through. What is your opinion on that? . . < 1 DR, RIEKE: You are talking of a first aid dispensary 2 in the yard* These are all-out patients* - 3 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: No that .s not what I mean* 4 DR* lleCOY: If you have anything separated, it should 5 he outside of the yards, and that will be an additional ex 6 pense* They can*t get the men Inside the yards* 7 DR* SPENCER: I have made a recommendation to the firm 8 where I work that they build a dispensary outside the fence 9 so the out-patient can come in and get treatment without 10 entering the yard, and by putting a guard at the inner door 11 only, those that return to the yard have to come back inside. 12 DR* B* JOSEPH PRICE, (Medical Director, Gulf Shipbuild 13 ing Corporation, Mobile, Alabama): What facilities in phys 14 ical therapy do you recommend! 15 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: We did not detail them* I think it is 16 up to the individual yard to do that themselves* It would 17 just be evaded in some places who would not want it* 18 MR* JOHN P. 0*CONNELL, (Marine Ship Corporation, Labor 19 Coordination): I have made a survey and find a great many 20 injuries in our yard are back injuries and major Joint in 21 juries* X am wondering about the possibility of having in 22 the yard, where we have two or three doctors, one of the 23 doctors an osteopath to treat back injuries, and so forth* CHAIRMAN DRINKER: We did not attempt to say whether 24 25 you should employ any specialised physicians or not* 72 1 MR. O'CONNELL: I would like to get the doctors' opinions, 2 CHARIUAN DRINKER: As far ae the Maritime Commission 3 goes, they would not have any opinion. I think it is up to 4 the individual yards. 5 UR. DAVE KAYE, (Kaiser Company, Inc., Richmond Shipyard 6 No. 3, Richmond, California): I don't think that the majority 7 of doctors want physiotherapists or osteopaths working in 8 their organizations. We at Truly Dam had one working with 9 us and we found him very good. We classified him as a 10 physiotherapist. He was not referred to as a doctor at all. 11 He was very good on back cases. I am sure he reduced our 12 lost time cases quite a bit. They have a little knowledge 13 of back injuries, and so forth, that doctors in general 14 neglect very much in their training. I think the consensus 15 would be against having an osteopath in the organization. 16 DR. McCOY: I think one of the items under the physical 17 facilities that has been neglected is the space and neces 18 sary room for registration and keeping of files and records, 19 and some place to put the cleke. They should not be in the 20 waiting room. They ought to be behind the desk and keeping 21 the patient on the other side away from the typewriter, and 22 things of that sort. It should take up a definite amount of 23 space. 24 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: We did not mean to leave it out. It 25 should be in. I am sure everybody will agree to that. 73 Turn to Pag* 2-A, gentlemen, on the general question of the form of acoldent reports, and the like. Hr. Roche 111 take up with the safety engineers this subject, and he Is doing It now. I would like to haws us evade that question if we can. The form he has X think will satisfy any of you for completeness, and If we confine our discussion to records in general to those that apply purely to the medical side, It would be better now. le there any discussion on these Items on the records and formst We have no defense at all for the present Maritime records. The sooner they are done away with, the happier we will be. IOL RELLER: On the question of X-ray. equipment, say, at the top of page 2-A, an X-ray unit for yards employing about five thousand men and above, I would Just like to ask this question: At pre-employment examinations, how many of the yarde. here are giving X-raye. taking X-ray pictures! Could I Just ask for a showing of hands on that! How many are giving pre-employment X-ray plcturee, chest pictures! DR. RIEKE: Who is examining pre-employment j that Is another question? r u . T M M DRINKER: I think the reasons for going Into that are practically none. MR. RELLER; The reason X ask that is the United States Health Department In the State of Mississippi are Insisting we give everybody, all pre-employment, a test picture. 25 15k 1 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: If you are doing it, you are doing 2 something few others are, S UR* GARFIELD: The aircraft industry is doing it quite a 4 hit* 5 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: On the West Coast? 6 MR. GARFIELD: Yes. We have not been permitted to do it 7 in our labor relations. 8 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: It is specifically forbidden in the 9 A. F. of L. West Coast contracts. 10 MR. BECK: Army ordnance is giving pre-employment ex 11 amination in all their plants. 12 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: So is the United States Navy. 13 UR. BECK: Those are contractor operated plants and not 14 ||Navy operated yards. . 15 it CHAIRMAN DRINKER: The Navy operated yards give pre- 16 employment all over, Baltimore, Mare Island, all of them give 17 pre-employment examinations. . 18 DR. ADAMS: Those are oivil service employees. 19 HR. BECK: I am talking about contractor operated Navy 20 yards. They are operated the same as the Bethlehem-Kingham Shipyards. They are operated by private contractors, and 21 the employees are the private-contractors* employees, and they 22 have been able to get around the union objections. 23 DR. RIEKE: That is not true on the West Coast. 24 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: The Bethlehem plants on the East 25 16k 1 Coast can do it* 2 The interchange of accident reports, say, under Item 6, 3 on Page 2-A, that is in the yards we have seen, has been not 4 near as good as it ought to he* We hope the Improvement in 5 the record forms ill help, but the record forms, as we found 6 ||them, in such yards as e investigated in many cases have 7 iibeen extremely faulty with a very great lack of Interchange 8 between the safety and the medical groups not being reported g ||back fast enough* 10 Let us go on to the examinations* We do not say the 1 1 ||employment of an employee shall depend on a physical examina- 12 tion* The labor shortage is such that I did not think there 13 was any sense putting that in* You oould not get away with 14 it* Besides, labor is opposed to physical examinations, be- 15 IIcause of abuses, alleged abuses* 16 We suggest the use of the examination not before hiring, 17* ||but after hiring, for proper placement, and to continue hir- 18 1 lug on pretty much the same theme as is now in use everywhere 19 || What would be your opinion about that, especially the 20 ||West Coast gentlemen? 21 DR* RIEKE: I think it would be Interesting to know that 2 2 ||we have been specifically barred by union agreement, which ..was drawn up at the eost of a good many million dollars with .. all of the Weet Coaet shipyards, froa doing any physical ex|| 2_5_ amination prior to hiring. 11 That was written in, we believe, Y `C 17k 1 for the reason that many of the men who have been long time 2 union members are unable to be employed through the depres 3 sion, or partly so, because of physical disability. They have] 4 long since exhausted the regular union members, and we find 5 the union members are agreeable not to pre-employment, or, @ IIrather, pre-placement physical examinations, I raise the point merely for dleouseion that we find ourselfes now short 8 ||of what we choose to call the helper classifications. In g other words, our upgrading system has been such that we have 10 perhaps an excess of Journeymen workmen. The pre-plaoement 1 1 examination now will be a sorting process, pretty much, to 1 2 help us get more helpers required to do the heavier work, 13 Vow, that will adjust itself, depending on how long our oper- 14 ctlons continue. We, of course, favor pre-placement examina- 15 tions very strongly, I think they should have been in from 16 the start simply because we have had so many accidents happen 17 to men who had no business doing the work they were doing, 18 A large percentage of our employee* would under normal circum- 19 stances be considered only physically capable of limited 20 activity. We are strongly in favor of pre-placement examina- 2 1 |tions, 22 MR, O'CONNELL: In the West Coast yards where we are 23 operating under the Paciflo Coast Master Agreement with the Ameriean Federation of Labor, doesnft that provoke some dif 24 ficulty in crafts 1 There is only one craft I know of that 25 has an agreement that will accept a Journeyman from any other craft, and that ie the machinists As an example, if you take a man who was an operating engineer running a crane and after examination decided he was not physically ahle to run that crane and you were moving him to run another Job, that would necessitate his Joining another union and paying anotherj initiation fee* CHAIRMAN DRINKER: We are well aware of that* We under stand the difficulties, and possibly even some misunderstand ing, or even turmoil this suggestion will cause, but we still think it ought to be done. We have talked with the A* F* of L* officials, and they have been more than cordial to the suggestion, and we have hopes that we can show the union leaders who ere responsible for that olause that Dr. Rieke cited, and that this gentlemen Just cited, that it will be decidedly to labor*s advantage to change that, and we have every hope we can change it* MR. TODD WOODELL, (Oregon Shipbuilding Corporation, Portland, Oregon): With reference to this transfer from one union to another, I believe you will find most of the unions working on the West Coast agree that they do not take initia tion fees immediately, and if they could not be classified as a crane operator, I do think they oould go into one of the other unions where they would classify* CHAIRMAN DRINKER: I do not think we are kidding our- 78 1 selves as to the magnitude of the problem and the diffi 2 culties of getting it through We still thinh it ought to go 3 through 4 HR. VOODELL: My point is, as far as the union is con- 5 eeraed, you say a man may be ruled out aB a crane operator, 6 and I say that if he vent bach to his union and told them 7 that he could not qualify as that, he would not be out. He 8 might be classed as a laborer, or something of that hind. 9 You are speahing of a case where a man is the member of a 10 union. We have not go so many of thoBe now. They are all 11 coming in from the outside, and the number of permanent mem 12 bers of the union that would be unfit to worh on that classi 13 fication are so minute ! do not thinh it is a real problem. 14 MR. 0*CONNELL: If you are going to give an examination 15 on a man who is already worhlng, he has to belong to some 16 union. . 17 HR. W00DELL: You are speahing about new employees. 18 HR. 0*CONNELL: Haven*t we got to that? 19 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: That is the next item. That is at 20 the bottom of Page 2, Periodic ohech examinations shall be 21 given men worhing in oooupations potentially hazardous to themselves or others, as for example to crane operators, 22 locomotive and hoisting and portable engineers. Periodic 23 chech examinations should be given men in Jobs in which there 24 may be health hazard, as for example to sand blasters, radium 25 78 20k 1 Ina X-ray work, and paint prayers.*-- I Purposely we did not try to enumerate them all, because 2 we can't, and because of the different things that go on In 3 different yards, but the general thought Is that those check 4 up examinations, In fact, ought to be given by the yard phy 5 sicians In cooperation with the safety department and manage 6 ment ought to state what Jobs are to have these check-up ex 7 B aminations. In our opinion, not having them now Is working 9 [labor a great deal of harm. I do not think labor quite re- |alines how much harm. Besides, the most Important point from 10 that point of view Is the man power. We Just cannot afford 11 12 to go along doing the way we are now. It does not matter what we think we have to do. We will welcome some discussion 13 14 |on that item. DR. PRICE: Our problem is this: We have a turnover of 15 [around two thousand per cent every three months, and we do 16 pre-employment examination. We would either have to quit 17 the pre-employment examinations to do the other, or else we 18 19 |will have to wait until the turnover Is less. CHAIRMAN DRINKER: Is the turnover tied up with the ex20 animations? That has nothing to do with the examinations. 21 The examinations do not cause It. 22 DR. PRICE: We have to examine all the new men. That 23 [puts such a tremendous burden on the facilities that ve have, 24 that we oannot do it. We can't get the new men examined fast 25 riu 1 enough* 2 I would like to ask a question. How about this sero 3 logical examination. _Is anyone making serological examina 4 tions? 5 DR, CROFT: We do in our pre-placement. 6 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: You do serologies? 7 DR. CROFT: Yes* 8 DR. PRICE: What do you require? Do you require that 9 they hare treatment? 10 DR. CROFT: I take care of the Merrill Stevens Shipyard, 11 as well as St. John's, and there we require them to take 12 treatment. The pre-placement examination is just going through 13 at St. John's now, but I have arranged for urine and serolog 14 ical on every one of those. I have a technician Just for 15 that, 16 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: Suppose a man is asked to take treat 17 ment, do you have any evidence he does? Do you have any check" 18 upe on him? 19 DR. CROFT: We have been trying to require that that man 20 take treatment and report to the first aid station each week 21 with a card. We have a card giving the date, the form of 22 treatment, and the doctor that gives the treatment, and have 23 them sign the date of treatment and his name, and have him 24 report every so often to show that he is taking treatment. 25 We are not attempting to give the treatment itself. It is up 1 to him to get the treatment, but we require that he does teiz 2 hie treatment* ' 3 DR. RIEKE: Vhat do you do if he doesn't? 4 DR* CROFT: Let him out* 5 DR* SPENCER: I should like to ask if the medical offis*? 6 in the plant ever has the authority to say the man must not 7 work* I am confronted every day with that problem, - a man 8 whose physical condition is such that 1 do not think it is 9 safe for himself or others. I have found several men with 10 epilepsy in the plant traveling around on scaffolds carrying 11 heavy weights, and I do not see how these men could be safe 12 in a shipyard, yet they are still employed. I was toldthat 13 a man, Just before I came there, had a broken shoulder and 14 a broken arm and a broken leg who went back to work, and I 15 do not think that man would be safe* Has the medical officer 16 the right to say, "This man is unsafe and should not be giver 17 employment?* 18 DR. RIEKE: I would like to answer that question first 19 by bringing up one other* When we started in we had no 20 authority to say, "You cannot work.* No one gave us that j i 21 authority. We took it on. There is no one on God's green j 22 earth that can 6ay to a doctor who exercises the proper pre- v ; oaution for the man himself and for the man around, "You are 23 doing wrong** No one I have ever seen has the guts to come 24 to a physician and say, *You cannot let the man go** That if ; 25 0 * 1 four Job and that is my Job, ana it took me several months 2 bo find It out. It is a physician's duty, and there is no 3 Mie that I know of, including the unions who can object to 4 that policy. It is an odd situation that you have to wait 5 until an epileptio has an attack in front of a scaffolding 6 or in front of a hoist, or somewhere, in order to let him 7 go, yet we have had to do that, and we have given discharges 8 to, I should estimate, fifty men in one yard who were 9 epileptics. The Lord knows it is hard enough to keep a 10 working force there with the material we are getting, and 11 yet it is only fair to the large percentage of the men that 12 those people who do not or are not able to keep control of 13 their faculties all of the time that we should let them go. 14 It is not a matter of looking after one man's interest; it 15 is a matter of looking after the welfare of the whole yard. 16 In other words, an epileptic on the scaffolding may fall off 17 and kill a number of men below him and get off scot free, 18 I think you have no alternative on that, I do not think any 19 one has to say to you that we have the authority. We cer 20 tainly do have the authority. Y o u cannot find it in the law, 21 but it is your Job and you should take that responsibility on yourself. Many me n would object to it. It would be well for you to go to your company officials so you are both in agree ment on the thing, and if the union officials desire to be considered I would talk to them about it, but I do not be- 83 24k 1 lieve that anyone, oompany official, union official, or any 6 2 other official will object to that particular policy. I do S not believe the Maritime Commission needs to give us the 4 authority to do that. I think that is the physician's Job. 5 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: I hope not. 6 DR. RIEKE: The other point which I raise, and the 7 thing which I am alarmed about, is this, and the point was 8 raised a while ago. How many pre-placement examinations are 9 you going to do, in which case how many doctors do you 10 have to hire? Under our present shortage of physicians, and 11 it is the same in all yards, I know that, we do not have 12 enough physicians to do pre-placement examinations, and I 13 do believe that we would be pretty hard pressed on perlodio 14 oheck-upe, even on certain critical occupations, with our 15 present physicIans' staff. In other words, this minimum 16 standards is our maximum standards. We have had a hard time 17 even getting up to that. We are getting by with our dis 18 pensary eervioe with this personnel.?eliam pleased to see 19 that our personnel is about what the minimum standards are, 20 but I do not believe the extra load of examinations could be carried by our present medical group. We have had the same 21 question asked by other physicians in the community as to who 22 was going to do those examinations, and I raise that for a 23 little consideration right now. 24 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: It is a perfectly good point. 25 :: 1 Again ire m i l have to assume that had we the personnel; how 2 would you feel about that item 2 , in a general wayt 3 Item 5, "Special Examinations, such as X-ray, 4 serologio and urinalyses shall be given in the Individual 5 oase as indicated and in accordance with local needs" 6 I do not believe there is any need to do that, 7 cause you will do that anyway* Several yards have raised the 8 question of facilities for X-rays, That is, it would be g cheaper to have the X-ray there and take their own pictures 10 instead of having to ship the men into town and save a very ii considerable delay, and often it would be much better to make 12 the examination themselves right at the yards, and tale the 13 pictures, because they could do it better* 14 In general, we approve of that very warmly, and we 15 would support requests from any yards for funds to do it* 16 Whether we will get away with it or not, I do not know. I 17 think we will, 18 MR, DANIEL S* RING, (Director, Shipyard Labor Re 19 lations, U, S, Maritime Commission, Washington, D* C*): Is 20 that with respect to X**raysT 21 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: You can put that in the question, 22 too* MR* RING: In a yard with 10,000 employees, which I 23 understand Gulf has at the present time, I think it is highly 24 important that we have an X-ray maohlne and the facilities for 25 1 taking X-ray pictures, because I think with that many men 2 in the yard it is a necessity, and I intend to take the mat 3 ter up with our Gulf operating officials at the Maritime 4 Commission and see If we cannot get an answer to it within 5 the next twenty-four hours There isnrt any use dilly 6 dallying about it 7 While I am on my feet, and because I generally 8 start talking when we get in a conference, Z might make a 9 reference to the pre-placement examinations 10 Let us get understood on this thing* We want to 11 set up standards that are practical If we have not got the 12 doctors to do the thing, there is no use putting it down in 13 black and white and saying we are going to do it Let us not 14 skip by and say, "If we can do a thing we will do it" Let 15 us find out from the knowledge you people have here what the 16 story is and whether you can do it or not That is a tick 17 lish proposition 18 Back in the old days, unions grew up into the be 19 lief that the physician in an Industrial establishment was 20 a dupe of the employer whose principal objective was to keep 21 out organizers or people who would stir up trouble or anything] 22 else That has grown up as a sort of a fetish with them, and 23 that is the sort of thing that is behind the refusal of many 24 branches of organized labor to go ahead with pre-employment 25 examinations 87k > ' O w 1 II Let ue get down to bed rock Are we going to have 2 lithe physic lane all over the country make pre-placement exam- 3 inations or notT You people here ought to know If we are 4 ||not, let ue not put that forth yet I*f we *are, let ue do it, 6 but let ue do it on a practical baeie, but not on an if, and 6 ,Ior but proposition 7 II CHAIRMAN DRINKERJ I do not eee any reason to believe 8 llwe are going to get any substantial help in increased numbers 9 |of doctors We will get some emergency ones 10 || MR* GARFIELD: Why notT Shouldn't our men have ex- 11 ||eminations Just as the army does? They need more. The type 12 of men we are getting now are very poor, and I think it is 13 the Mailtime Commission's -Job to see we get the doctors That 14 ||is part of their work, 15 || MR. RING: All right, if you think so, and all of 16 llyou want to get together here and say, "We think, one, pre- 17 llolaceaent examinations are absolutely necessary to run this 18 llwar production program on an even keel; two, we are short of 19 physicians; three, we, the doctors, in the shipbuilding in- 20 llaustry,Jointly here say that something has to be done to get 21 ||these doctors, and we put the load of it on the Navy and the 22 Maritime Commission," tell us to do it Tell us that that 23 standard should be there, but let's not go at it on a wlshy24 pashy basis, gentlemen We have a Job to do and we have to do 2 & ||lt in the most practical way With the heat we can put behind 881c 1 it, after you Jointly hare agreed upon a proposition like 2 that, if it is agreeable to you -- * and I do not want to in 3 fluence you one way or the other -- I think we can get some 4 relief# But let us got at it on a practical basis, and if 6 we have to go to the army and say, "The need for shipbuilding 6 requires the release of physioians here and here and here in 7 accordance with these plans, give them to us,* and go to the 8 Publlo Health Service and say, "Detail physicians over here 9 for us," and then we can work on it, but we are not, certain- 10 ly going up as the Maritime Commission^ experts in ship 11 construction, but having no technical standing as far as in- 12 dustrial health is concerned and say to the army, "We have 13 Sot to have so many people released," They will turn around 14 to us and say, "How do you know?" 15 You give us the background and the basis to go on, 16 and we will go to town. If that is what you feel, adopt a 17 resolution, if you want, so we will have it in tangible form 18 and black and white as to exactly how you feel about that. 19 Row, I do not know whether there is any division 20 of opinion or not. If a pre-placement examination is right 2 1 and the best thing, why, that should be, and come out flat for it. If you are short of doctors, say "This should be, 22 pnd we must have more doctors. It is up to the Maritime 23 Commission ana the Navy if they want this program to go along 24 to get them for us. We ask you to get them and point out to 25 29k 1 you you have got to get them If you want thle to go across." 2 DR. RIEKE: Preliminary to making such a sugges 3 tion that we would so resolve the one problem that the 4 Oregon Shipbuilding and other yards in Portland are running & into is this: Men are suing us for sums up to fifty thousand 6 dollars apieoe for permanent disability due to alleged poi 7 soning of welding fumes. The question was raised: Do we 8 need test X-rays prior to employment? I would say by all 9 means practically everybody that comes into a shipyard if 10 there is some possible way of doing it should have them 11 simply from that standpoint, or we are going to wind up be- 12 || hind the eight-ball Just about a thousand miles on everybody 13 it that has a ohronlc cough, simply for lack of any evidence 14 | whatsoever as to what that man's condition was when he came 15 into the shipyard. Now, that test &*ray won*t prove anything 16 particularly, but certainly it will give us something to re 17 fer back to, at any rate. 18 What good is a preliminary physical on the basis 19 they are doing them now in the service when we run them 20 through at the rate we are? Anyone who wants to demand that 21 kind of a physical as to chest conditions is probably Just 22 asking for trouble. That is a very large question, that one point of chest conditions, from a medical standpoint. I am 23 24 sure you are all running into it. We certainly are, and are 25 continuing to. 89 1 Dr* McCoy and myself were just talking about whether 2 welding fumes cause bronchitis or Just aggravate It* That Is 3 just a personal opinion with me and Dr* McCoy and you will 4 get two sides of It wherever you are* 5 I think probably without exception that chest 6 would be Indicated from a public health standpoint and the 7 standpoint of the welfare of everybody that comes Into a ship 8 yard* I think there Is no question but what pre-employment 9 physical examinations are the proper thing to do* and I think 10 Dr. Garfield's point is correct, that the Maritime Commis 11 sion's prime duty is to see that we get the help* - 12 I think it is now established that shipbuilding is 13 the one Important industrial need until we get enough ships 14 to start shipping war products, and I think everybody, in 15 eluding the physicians, should Insist on every possible 16 medical care for ship workers* 17 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: How would you gentlemen feel if 18 we appointed, a small committee to bring in a resolution on 19 this tomorrow morning? I think we are all pretty much agree 20 able on these Items* Is that agreeable to you? 21 MR* WOODELL: Couldn't a resolution be formed right 22 now for the committee to write a form or standard for 23 physical examination? 24 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: I do not think we need the form 25 for the physical examination as much as we need an expression 1 of opinion as to what to do about that, and also the short 2 age of physicians in the yards, - S UR, WOODELL: Would that have to come from the Joint 4 committee? 5 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: I think it would be in order to 6 have it coae from the joint oomaittee as representing the 7 physicians in the shipyards, - 8 I suggest as a committee Dr, Rieke and Dr, Spencer 9 and Dr, Croft, Is that agreeable? 10 DR, CROFT: Yes, 11 DR, SPENCER: Yes, 12 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: We would ask you, then, to con 13 sider three things; one, the shortage of physicians in Navy 14 and Maritime contract yards, and to make a statement as to 15 what you think the Maritime Commission and the Navy ought to 16 do about it; two, pre-placement physical examination, 17 DR, RIEKE: Let me ask this question: Is the 18 feeling general that you have enough physicians or not enough 19 to do the pre-placement examination, or that you have not 20 enough even for dispensary work? I would like to have an 21 expression, 22 DR. SPENCER: Before I came to the yard, there were 23 two men who gave four hours a day, and the extent of their 24 examination was an eye-opener to me. They did serological 25 tests, blood typing, and gave a pretty thorough physical . - - 91 1 examination Those two men gave four hours a day, and some- 2 times examined as many as four hundred men, and did a splendid 3 Job. 4 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: Gentlemen, we still have a good 5 deal to go through We are not trying to side-step any of 6 this We will go on with this program, and we will have this 7 evening for Informal discussions, and also tomorrow 8 UR* O'CONNELL: Is this committee Just to report or 9 make a resolution on the periodical examination after the man 10 is employed? 11 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: Both That makes a third item 12 I will speak to the committee afterwards so we will he sure 13 we are straight on the assignment 14 Now, turn to Page 3~A, the air raid precautions 15 We would like to feel that the yards are facing that 16 possible problem and not evading it in any way Beyond that 17 we do not intend to go In a great many of the yards that we 18 visited, if you asked if they were doing anything, you would 19 meet with really totally blank looks, and in some of them the 20 precautions taken were very elaborate and in keeping with 21 those you find in any of the big Navy yards. Probably some 22 thing in between is reasonable Is there any discussion on 23 that? 24 UR BECK: I have found that often at yards they 25 think little of those things until the first accident happens ... 92 1 where it Involves a large number of men* In one ease there 2 were some twenty men hilled, and the radio station, the local 3 radio station, broadcast that they bad several hundred hilled, 4 and the dootors started driving in from as far away as one 5 hundred miles, and hospitals in the local communities were 6 left without doctors 7 That brings two things; first, that they need to 8 have an understanding with any local radio station that there 9 will be no broadcasts of any disasters, whether they are 10 bombings, or whether they are explosions, or whatever they 11 might be, except when given by authorities; and secondly, 12 that certain doctors in hospitals in the town upon which you 13 are depending to take people that are Injured from the plant 14 will remain at their posts and not come to the yard 15 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: The point we want to make in this 16 1b especially shown under item 4, under air raid precautions, 17 that you be sure you are in keeping with local army and navy 18 regulations, beoause in those yards we have criticized, I sun 19 pretty sure they distinctly were not They were going their 20 own way, and they just had not bothered about it 21 Responsibilities of the medloal service. On Item 22 1, "Frequent inspections of the yard by the medical staff 23 shall be required," I found in some yards it was done with a 24 great deal of care and in others, where the physicians frank** 25 ly were brought in from outside and taken from busy practices, 93 34 k 1 bad never been In an Industry before, they Just were not making any trips around the yards, because It physically was 2 impossible. Whether that can be done or not, I do not know, 3 but we feel very strongly that it ought to be done and that 4 5 the yard would benefit immeasurably from It. The d o s e collaboration maintained with the Safety 6 Department and the Medical Department on the records and 7 accidents I hope very muoh we will achieve as the result of 8 9 improved aocldent forms. Item 3| in most yards, as I pointed out this morn 10 ing, that has not been done at all. Neither the medical 11 nor the safety department considered it their responsibility 12 to know what chemicals were being used in the yard. If they 13 14 are not responsible, I must say I do not know who is. We. 15 propose to enforce that and state that it is the consensus 16 of these gatherings that labeling be put on chemical sub 17 stances, on paints, thlnners, sold the like. If you see the 18 chemical names on them, in many cases, it will save you a lot 19 of work. How do you feel about that, that enforced labeling? 20 Is that agreeable? 21 DR. RIEKE: Yes. CHAIRMAN DRINKER: We will try and put it through 22 if it is, and we will state it is the feeling of this meeting 23 that that ought to be done. That will save us from making a 24 lot of analyses which are time-consuming and often extremely 25 9 1 difficult. You can now call the attention of your supplies 2 department to the fact that they should not buy these sub** 3 stances without knowing what they are and that in itself 4 will make them write back to the supplier and say RIs this 5 stuff toxic or is it not?* You know the chemicals by and 6 large come from large firms with a pretty good medical set 7 up and one of the things they have done is examine these 8 products they sell and even though they cover them up by 9 trade names the chances are they can tell you what their 10 toxicity is, and will be glad to do so, especially when the 11 weight of the Maritime Commission and the Navy is put on 12 them* 13 We do not Intend to let the thing drop, but at the 14 same time, we do feel that from now on the medical and safety 15 department should feel that it is up to them to know what is 16 being used in the yards, and that they are being used safely. 17 Is that unreasonable? 18 MR. WOODELL: Is it your proposal that that analy 19 sis be given by the vendor? 20 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: Yes. 21 MR. WOODELL: On the package as well as on some 22 label stating as to what it is? 23 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: We eould not put that through, 24 probably, because many of these things are all made up, and 25 they have no labels. It will take a little time, but we do S6k 1 not Intend to let up on it 2 MR, W00DELL: Even though It Is not labeled, they 3 ' could by letter Inform you 4 DR. GARFIELD: Dr. Drinker, this may not be accur 5 ate, but I understand the Navy uses paint that does not con 6 tain. lead 7 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: That is right They use aInc 8 chromate Instead of lead 9 DR. GARFIELD: Could liberty boats be taken care 10 oft 11 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: From the standpoint of shipping 12 instructions, I am afraid we could not get it. There is not . J 13 enough. Technically, there is no objection, but it is a 14 supply problem* I do not think it has to be I think the 15 Liberty type ships can continue using red lead paint safely. 16 DR. RIEKE: Dr Drinker, this is a personal prob 17 lem. I do not know whether it comes in any further on here, 18 in our safety department. It is in regard to point 2, Close 19 collaboration shall be maintained with the safety depart- especially a . - 20 ment/in regard to records of accidents and absenteeism 21 I should like to see this group -- and I think our 22 safety engineer Is asking the group upstairs have the Maritime Commission authorize and Insist that safety in 23 spectors be paid a wage which will be compatible with their 24 position in a shipyard, which is not that of an underling. 25 W w< 1 Our safety Inspector turnover is about as high as it Is for 2 our group. We Just get one man well trained in safety and 3 accident prevention when he has an opportunity to earn some 4 IIthing like thirty or forty cents more an hour on a Journey- 5 n manvs job, and he leaves us, and we have to start all over e ||again. The value of well-trained safety Inspectors is in estimable, and they will unquestionably pay for themselves g ||many times, and I would insist from a medical standpoint the 9 IMaritime Commission take action on it 10 H CHAIRMAN DRINKER: We agree strongly. We have heard n ||the same complaint everywhere we went. I am very glad you 12 brought it up. 13 MR. RELLER: How about Including your medical at- 14 tendants, too? 15 DR. RIEKE: We have taken the viewpoint they should 16 ||be at least the yard average. Our nurses ere being paid 17 Just two dollars a month more than our Janitors are on the 18 Coa6t. The hospitals are screaming that we are hiring their 19 |help away from them. We are not. The shipyard wages are the 2 0 ||things which are exhausting the medical personnel in the hos- 21 pltals. That is a thing beyond our control. It is a point that the Manpower Commission should certainly study, simply 22 from the standpoint of maintaining medical personnel in hospl 23 Lie in relation to defense areas, as everywhere else. I do 24 not know whether that has to come from this group or not. I 25 87 38k do not think bo* - DR* A T M S : On the question of absenteeism, I should like to hear the expressions of some of the other members here* 4 |1 We never got Into a definite routine or formula of checking oi 5 || that* How are you going to know whether these men are off 6 | from sickness or Just plain cussedness? We run Into a cer tain type of man who wants only so much money each week, and 8 || when they earn that much money, then they lay off until the 9 || next week* I would like to have an expression as to how you 10 are going to check up on these men* 11 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: I would like to know myself* * 12 DR* PRICE: We require every man who has been off -- It 13 used to be three days, but now it is one day -- to bring a 14 ||slip from the dootor who treated him saying he was 111 while 15 ||he was off* _ 16 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: Did you hear that, Dr. Adams? 17 DR. PRICE: I think one day Is not so very good. I 18 ||think three days Is about right* 19 || On this point about pre-placement examinations, I have 20 ||Just the opposite problem from these fellows on the West Coastj 2 1 1 1 talked with the general manager of the yard about placing 22 men who could do some work, but not other work, and he said 23 he did not want me passing on what sort of work they oould do; 24 | that all shipyard work was heavy; and all he wanted to know 25 was whether they could work or not. In other words, he wanted 1/ 39k 1 me to turn down all those who could not do everything, - 2 women and men 3 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: They had to he able to do anything at 4 all? 5 DR. PRICE: They had to be able to do any work that was 6 required. 7 CHAIRMAN DRINKER! I do not think that is general. That 8 probably differs with the locality. 9 DR. W. J. REIN, (Delta Shipbuilding Company, New Orleans,j 10 Louisiana): We have that down at New Orleans. 11 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: Shall I take up No. 5, the matter of 12 employing women? We mentioned before that that really has 13 to be suggested; the physical facilities that are necessary 14 will have to be suggested by the yard, or, rather, perhaps 15 by the district rather than the yard, but it certainly will 16 vary with the district. Do you gentlemen feel we ought to 17 formulate some polioy with regard to item No. 5? - 18 My thought was that the employment of women in the ship 19 yards is,relatively speaking, new, and we do not know quite 20 how it is going yet. All we know is there are going to be a 21 good many of them. What the percentage will be in the next six months or year is unpredictable. Should we make that 22 more definite? What is the feeling? 23 DR. McCOY! I think it should be made more definite, be 24 cause in taking a general treatment room, you have to separ25 40k X || ate the toilet facilities, you have to have separation, and 2 ||usually the nurses like a separation from the female patients, 3 ||In other words, you have two female lavatories, and then the 4 || dootor and the staff, the male nurses, want separation from * ' 5 || the male patients. Supposing back on Section A, Page 1, we 6 I Increase those facilities to take care of what has been sug gested now; would that be satisfactory* Would everybody be B in agreement with that* 9 DR. RIEKE: Doctor, I would like to suggest what our 10 experience has been. We have about 10 per cent of our pay 11 roll in women. I am sure it will probably go to SO or 40 12 per cent if the war lasts long enoughs. We have provided in 13 our building, as you remember, an extra w o m e n s treatment 14 space. We have not as yet found it necessary to use that, 15 except where we do have a disrobing case, or a case brought 16 in by ambulance. I think that is entirely a local problem. 17 I think the space should be provided. 18 CHAIRMAN DRINKER! How about the colored or whites? 19 DR. RIEKE: I am not in a position to argue that. It is 20 a local problem as to whether you have to have separate space 21 for women. We have not started to use it yet, except in a 22 minor degree. 23 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: If we do not have such separation 24 for colored and whites in the Southern yards, there will be 25 a first olass mess. 100 41k ! it DR* RIEKE: As I say, that is a problem in the South, 2 and they will have to have it* 3 'll UR. RELLER: We are setting up separate rooms for our 4 people 5 II CHAIRMAN DRINKER: Is there any speoial feeling on the 6 ||part of this group on the feeding situation in the yards? Personally, I think it is a mess in most of the places we 6 I have seen it* I think the feeding in the yards is by and 9 | large very badly handled, almost without exception* 10 DR* CROFT: I would like to get some ideas on that* They] 11 | have no feeding facilities now in our yard at all* They are 12 just in town and there were a lot of little places mushroomed] 13 ||up around near there* * 14 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: Quick and dirties and diners* 15 DR. CROFT: Quick and dirties. The city board of health 16 ||has been right down my neck* I have done my best to try to 17 get them to put some place in the plant* Originally, in their] 18 (plans they had it, but I d o n H seem to get to first base* 19 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: I have not gotten half way to first 20 (base and I have done a good deal of hollering on this. I do 2 1 not think we can get to home plate unless this group does 22 something about it. If you do something perhaps we can get 23 somewhere. I have spent most of my professional life and 24 (have done a lot of consulting work in the last fifteen or 25 twenty years on the feeding situation in the maritime yards, and the Navy does not oompare at all with what you find in a m o d e m manufacturing establishment or a m o d e m mining c o s h munlty. It is not anything like it* Whether the yards want to go into feeding or not, I don't know, but what they are doing now is certainly not very good* DR* CROFTj I talked it over with Mr* Page, who is the treasurer of the St* J o h n U Shipbuilding, and for years has been connected with large corporations, and some ooal com panies in Pennsylvania and he seemed to think it would be a very difficult problem to get someone who was capable of doing it and doing it right* . CHAIRMAN DRINKER: I donft see any difference in feeding a shipyard and a big steel company* DR* CROFT: But he said there were very few concerns capable of handling it. He did not seem to think the local people could do it* CHAIRMAN DRINKER: The chain cafeterias can do it* I can take any of you gentlemen to establishments who are run ning twenty-four hours where the employees get anywhere from twenty minutes to half an hour to eat, and they get a darned good meal, and an inexpensive one, and an inexpensive place to eat it* DR* GARFIELD: Are they new? CHAIRMAN DRINKER: One of them was completed in the last two years. I can't see the slightest distinction between them, 1U3 43k 1 and the shipyards, except the shipyards have put up shipyards 2 |with no idea of doing any feeding, 3 || DR, RIEKE: As far as we are concerned, we put up cafe- 4 terias and found them inadequate to feed twenty thousand men 5 in a half an hour. It was purely from a personnel standpoint. 6 You can say that you cannot see that there is any difference 7 |ibetween feeding a steel plant and a shipyard. I say there is 8 a great deal of difference, partly because there is a war on. 9 We are unable to get personnel* 10 || CHAIRMAN DRINKER: That has a lot to do with it. 11 II DR. RIEKE: Secondly, we found there was too much abuse 1 2 of the cafeterias. In'other words, our leadermen, superin- 1 3 tendents, foreman and everybody else knocked off at 11:50, in 1 4 order to get into our facilities at 18:00, and we Just could 1 5 not handle twelve thousand or any small portion of them in 16 the provided lunch period, and we felt it was Just not worth 17 the effort to try to take care of part of them, and we simply 18 stopped it altogether in the yards, and we have set up very 19 Iwell policed cafeterias Just ovteide the fence at which the 2 0 1 company employees can eat before going on shift or after shift 2 1 at very reasonable prices. That has been the most successful 2 2 ||at our place. And then the inspection, I think, should be done very 2 4 IIcarefully under the shipyard control of the feeding facilities, 2 5 I do not know what you would do there. 1U L.* 44k 1 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: We can throw a very good bluff ana get away with It; that 1b , If we have a quick and airty, or 2 a diner, you can Just get away with a lot of It by being 3 highhanded, If It 1b Insanitary, and get the local health 4 5 people In. We have never found any trouble with that* Do 6 you gentlemen wish to take any position about the feeding 7 situation? It is a large one; It Is an awfully big one; and 8 if we start it now we better have a pretty good idea where it 9 is leading. 10 I have had several shipyard executives say to me that 11 they would either run a shipyard or a cafeteria, but they 12 would be damned if they would run both* HR. 0*CONNELL: I have never heard any complaint from our 13 people about the way we feed our men. We run in a whole 14 fleet of cafeteria trucks with hot soup) coffee, and things 15 of that sort. They get in the yards Just ten minutes before 16 17 the whistle blows. Everyone seems to be quite satisfied. 18 I have never heard any oomplalnts. 19 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: I have never been in your yard. 20 MR. 0*CONNELL: I wondered if that was done at other 21 places* CHAIRMAN DRINKER: I have seen it done in some yards 22 where the fleet trucks brought the milk and some sandwiches 23 24 and pie* MR. RELLER: Do you have much trouble in Jumping the 25 I U 1:- whistle to get there? MR. O 'CONNELL: The management has issued an order that the leadermen is responsible for their men getting on the Job, If they don't, the leaderman is fired, DR. REIN: Down at Delta we have two large cafeterias and two so-called mess halls. That is, food is transferred from the cafeteria to the mess halls. We d o n H have any trouble at all* CHAIRMAN DRINKER! How about this matter of salt tablets1 DR. RIEKE: The only trouble with the salt tablets is they take them straight and then they throw them up and then come to us, DR. SPENCER: I notice in this section you say, "shall inspect and report," How about establishing minimum stand ards for sanitation? Some of these plants have awfully in sanitary toilets. There iB no use looking at them unless you have authority to do so* CHAIRMAN DRINKER! The medical officer certainly will have authority to do something. If he reports it and it comes up to the Maritime Commission and the Navy, I can prom ise you something will be done about it* DR. McCOY! I think there should be a statement made when a boat is up and the men are working on it, that there should be lavatory privileges, both female and male* CHAIRMAN DRINKER: I think so too* We have taken longer to go through this than we In tended, and I am afraid It will make us a little short In the subsequent program, hut our three officers here all have something to tell of Importance, and we will let them go ahead Ur Kelson will speak first UR* K W KELSON, (Ensign, U.SNR*, Boston, Massa chusetts): Since our time Is very short and we must hurry along, we will merely skim through the subsequent sections of this manual, and in case any questions come up regarding our minimum standards concerning dust and fumes, and so forth,j we would like to answer them here and now, or have your views on them and your reactions to the suggestions we have made This is mostly for the safety engineers, but we think that you, too, should have an idea of what the problems are in the yard and how to control them As far as dust In shipyards Is concerned, it Is not a common problem* Most shipyards do not do any sandblasting, but some do Where they do have it, we have seen it done very badly For Instance, sandblasting out In the open, sandblasting in a room with no provisions made for the con trol of the dust at all, sandblasting without the proper protective equipment for the operator, no hood, faulty respirator, and so forth* The protective devices we have mentioned here will control the problem The best bet, of course, is a complete sandblast outfit, ... _ . ^ 106 47k 1 If you can obtain one* Withsilica dust, of course, the re-* 2 suit of exposure after a long time, is silicosis. I meed 3 not go into details of that. You doctors know I am not a # 4 physician, by the way, and I do not want to pose as one 11 5 Lead dust from paint mixed in the paint shop may result 6 in lead polsftnlng because of inhalation of the lead 7 Asbestos: In many yards, asbestos pipe coverings are q jjused They are shaped and formed at the shipyard, usually, 9 ||by a sub*contractor, and cutting, pounding and sewing of the 10 | asbestos cloth and insulating material is done. Now, where n II there is any extensive cutting, you will find there is a io dust hazard if the substance contains asbestos. All of them 13 do not contain asbestos. Here again we pointt0./the regulations on safety engineers and physicians knowing what is in the 25 | substances and chemicals used in the yard. 2g || The next one, metal fumes and smoke, from welding on 17 red lead painted surfaces. There is a definite hazard of leadl 18 poisoning there. We have seen in shipyards this being done 19 very often. The heat of the arc on steel which has been 20 volatilized has, most of it, lead and zinc oxide paint, and 21 makes a fume which when inhaled is absorbed rapidly by the welder, and if the exposure is oarrled on after a length of 22 time, that is, day after day he does that sort of thing, the 23 chances are he will oontract chronic lead poisoning. 24 We have made some tests and we oan prove that the ex25 ............................ 107 1 poeure is about the maximum allowable limit for lead fumes; 2 as you probably know, the limit is about one and one-half 3 mlligrams of lead per cublo meter of air. In our tests which 4 we ran we had as much as thirty times the maximum allowable 5 limit of lead created in the atmosphere due to welding on 6 painted surfaces. So there may be trouble from that in the 7 future, we cannot say. but it is something to watch out for 8 in welders. . 9 Zinc oxide poisoning or the zino chills, may be caused 10 from welding on galvanized surfaces, zino coated on. steel, 11 the heat of the arc against volatilized steel, the zino 12 b u m s , really, and produces this oxide, which when inhaled 13 in sufficient quantity results in metal fume fever. After 14 exposure through heavy concentration, the welder may go home 15 and after a few hours begin to have alternate chills and 16 fever and a general washed out feeling and become really ill. 17 It is a temporary thing, however. After a night of discom 18 fort, the next morning he is probably able to go to work, 19 and so lost time is not a large item. It does, however, oo~ 20 casionally cause lost time of a day or two, but the reduc 21 tion in the efficiency, due to his washed out feeling, is something to contend with and, of course, the effects on the 22 man's morale are very bad indeed. 23 You earn'.obtain bulletins on zinc oxide poisoning, or 24 25 metal fume fever, from the Other results are X V w 49k 1 a white count from twelve to fourteen thousand within twelve 2 hours after the exposure* and there are other interesting 3 points connected with it* 4 Now, t'he Liberty ehipe do not have very much galvanized 5 welding# Only in the pipes is galvanized metal used# There 6 fore, those concerned only with Liberty ships may not find 7 that to be a major problem. It is, however, in Navy con 8 tract yards, where they make destroyers and other Navy ships, 9 where galvanized metal is used throughout# 10 Solvent vapors in a shipyard ere encountered in spray 11 painting# The various kinds of paints apply to the paint, 12 petroleum spirits, and so forth# 13 In cementing there are certain cements containing toxic 14 solvents# In most cases the safety engineers are unaware 15 that the solvent is toxic. Carbon tetrachloride and benzine 16 are frequent offenders in that respect# 17 The acid gases and mists are, in turn, in pickling, 18 cleaning and degreasing operations, but they are not common 19 in shipyards, but they must be considered where they are 20 present# Alkali mists you can dispense with as being in a class 21 with the acid gases and mists# 22 Asphyxiating atmospheres need no explanation; oxygen 23 breathing, carbon monoxide, and eo forth# 24 Now, I have up here in connection with lead poisoning 25 50 k I* / 1 a bunch of pamphlets giving in detail the technique of doing 2 the basophilic aggregation tests. As you know, it. is not a 3 specific test* In other words, it will not indicate lead 4 poisoning alone* A basophilio count is also obtained in 5 other disorders such as diabetes, and others* I have these 6 bulletins;if you would like to come up and get one after 7 the meeting, you are welcome to them* 8 Where any large number of workers must be checked for 9 lead poisoning, this method of examination is probably the 10 most feasible* Where the counts are suspicious, then you 11 may confirm your suspicions with a urinalysis or blood analy 12 sis* , 13 I might mention a word about laboratory facilities* 14 Naturally, laboratory facilities will not be available to 15 each of you in your locality* At least, you might have dif 16 ficulty in getting them. And the techniques used in doing 17 lead analyses might not be used by the operators of the 18 laboratory* So we propose to set up laboratories to be . 19 operated under the Maritime Commission were you can send your 20 samples and have the analysis reported back to you. That is, if you find a man who has suspicion* signs of lead poisoning, 21 his exposure or his symptoms may confirm it by a urlre sample. 22 Seotlon'C takes up these occupational diseases more in 23 detail and the repetition of those I have already mentioned, 24 such as lead poisoning, spray painting, which is particularly 25 110 51k 1 a bad actor* In many cases ire hare found sprayers operating 2 without the proper protection, and in most cases their help 3 ers have not any protection at all* A man would be standing beside a painter, and the painter would be wearing a respir 4 ator, and the helper not any, and breathing in this fine mist 5 6 of red lead paint in great volume* Now, obviously it is 7 dangerous* The absorption of lead through inhalation is 8 much more rapid than that by injection, and your lead poison 9 ing danger is Intensified* , 10 I would like to call your attention to fiberglas on 11 Page 3-C* There have been many misapprehensions about 12 fiberglas, and the main one has been the danger of breathing 13 particles of fiberglas-which is used in insulation in ships. 14 As far as has been determined, there are no ill effects from of 15 inhalatioiv'pe^ticles of fiberglas. As you know, it is a 16 silicate, not a silica, not free silica at all; therefore, 17 it cannot cause silicosis in any way* The particles of fibei 18 glas are irritating to the skin, however. That is, they will 19 work their way into the skin, although you may acquire a sort 20 of a toughness to that after a while, and that must be con sidered in men who complain about their skin condition from 21 working with it* 22 The cement used in fiberglas is very often one carrying 23 carbon tetrachloride, which is another source of danger* 24 Carbon Tetrachloride, when Inhaled, as you know, for any 25 lid length of time or In any great amount causes liver damage and kidney damage and bo forth Aebestosis, which I have already mentioned, on Page 4-C, th-?r 1b Something which will not appear very Bhortly. It will take the matter of a year or two years for asbestosis to develop, perhaps, but the danger is present in some few yards and should be recognized# It is very similar to silicosis, I might say, - shortness of breath and a tightness around the chest, and so forth# I think that is all I need mention* I want to remind you I of again/these basophilic aggregation tests which we have here which you can get, and I will now turn the meeting over to IDr# Drinker# CHAIRMAN DRINKER: In order to show you what we want to Ido, we may have to double up a little bit with the safety engineers and postpone our demonstration sotthhy csn see it |at the same time# ' We would like to hear some discussion on these items that Mr# Nelson Just took up, on welding, especially. ` DR* RIEKE: Dr, Drinker, I came back with great anticipa tion because of a discussion we have had in the last few days in our shipyards with the electricians partly in relation to a welding machine and partly in relation to welding fumes# We are very sensitive about welding fumes in our place right now, and have been for many months, but particularly beoauee of cer- 53k % ~ 112 1 tain suits coming up at us 2 The question has been raised repeatedly as to what there 3 is in welding fumes We know there is something in the weld?- 4 icg of galvanised pipe* The sine fumes we do not encounter, 5 to speak of, in the Liberty ships We have had very little 6 trouble that I feel to be genuine, as far as zinc fevers are concerned. However, it repeatedly is raised and has been for 7 months, and continues to be raised at that point, as to 6 9 whether there is or is not some substance in welding fumes on plain iron plate, with ordinary welding rod, which can 10 or does cause either acute or chronic tracheobronchitis 11 I would like to raise that point for Dr. Drinker^ discus-* 12 sion * ' 13 14 The second point is this: We have recently had a death 15 the circumstances of which 1 should perhaps tell you. I was 16 the first one at the scene to remove the deceased individual 17 and checked He had been welding. The ventilation was good. 18 He was near the open air. At the autopsy there was nothing 19 found to explain death He did have b u m s across the fore- 20 head and across the cheek The autopsy surgeon found the 21 cause of death to be electric shock He also found a bright 22 red tracheobronchitis The lungs with a little edema and 23 redness. The pathologist made the statement that acute 1 tracheobronchitis was assumed to be due to the inhalation of 24 25 welding fumes 113 1 I raised as a question, one, the probability of tracheo 2 bronchitis from welding; is it due to welding fumes? Second 3 ly> is it possible and has it happened in other shipyards over 4 the oountry that definite statements have been made that 5 electrocution can occur from welding machines? 6 I would point out that we have several thousand welders. 7 They have welded for sixteen months through rain and shine, 8 wet and dry. So far, this is the first death, to my knowl 9 edge, that we can ascribe to electrocution from a welding 10 machine* It was an alternating current machine with 500 11 amperes, and the contact voltage of 80 volts. I ask that 12 very definitely, is it possible, is it probable, and has it 13 happened in other shipyards? 14 I disputed with the autopsy surgeon the cause of death, 15 and also hie assumption that the tracheobronchitis was due to 16 the inhalation of fumes. His statement was simply that there 17 must be something in the ordinary fumes from welding on steel 18 which was causing that in our workmen. I have some other 19 theories on it, but I would rather listen to your discussion 20 of those points first* 21 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: My own experience with welding over 22 a number of years, both galvanized welding and black iron, 23 is that in the case of black iron if it is done in a confined 24 space without ventilation, trouble is extremely likely. Gal 25 vanlzed iron is likely to make trouble anywhere, unless the lift 1 inhaling Of fumes is prevented. The only oure that we can 2 suggest, or the best one, is ventilation with local exhausts S supplied near to the Job* 4 Asto whether you are getting away with it or not, whether 5 you are having enough ventilation, it is extremely hard to 6 state without some air samples, and we would 11he at this 7 point to show you the demonstration that we have arranged here 8 now, and we will let Ur. Ege describe how it can be sampled* 9 After we have given that demonstration, then the discussion 10 may continue* 11 The welder that the Maritime Commission has loaned us 12 will give a little demonstration right here on the table with 13 the use of the local exhausts, and then Ur* Ege can follow 14 by showing you the sampling meter which we would propose can 15 be applied by the safety engineer at the yard* 16 UR. UORWICK ROSS, (Ensign, Boston, Massachusetts): We 17 will leave it to your Judgment whether we have taken proper 18 precautions in this matter of welding* If there is one time 19 proper precautions should be taken, this is it, because we 20 have a very discriminating audience* We are sssured by the 21 American Optical Company, who has been kind enough to supply 22 this little shield here, there would not be a soul in the 23 audience who would have an eye flash* If there are any such 24 cases as a result of this demonstration, please tell them and 25 not us* 56k UC (Here followed a demonstration of welding.) 1 To preface our demonstration let me say Just a word or 2 3 two about the ventilation program which Is covered in some 4 detail in this minimum standards which you now have* Our 5 interest in ventilation, of course, is considerable, Just as 6 [yours is, since most of the hazards we have been discussing 7 today, the health hazards, can be controlled by ventilation* 8 Now, our prime concern, I think, with our ventilation, 9 is the elimination of welding fumes, and that is what we are 10 |going to show you here today with this little welding set-up 11 Iwe have* 12 I do not think in view of our combined audience here 13 Ithat we should go through our section on ventilation stand* 14 ards. I think perhaps we will have an opportunity to take 15 that up separately with the safety engineers who are more 16 primarily interested in it. I might point out in our ventllar- 17 tion standards, the second paragraph, which says, "The main 18 tenance of proper working conditions shall be the responsla 19 bility of the safety department, whose staff shall work in 20 [close cooperation with the welding, paint, and electrical 21 [departments.* That is putting it up to you safety fellows. It is 22 rather a labor of love for you. Certainly there won*t be 23 much reward except a better yard. If you already have a 24 ventilation set-up in your yard of which you are proud and 25 il'-' which you think 1b doing a perfectly fine Job, we have no 57k 1 intention whatsoever of upsetting the applecart, but there 2 are yards which have come to our attention, and undoubtedly S others which did not, where the ventilation program may pos 4 sibly lack certain features, and that Is the reason we pro 5 pose these ventilation standards* In other words, If your 6 7 ventilation In your yards, If your ventilation superintend 8 ent -- If you are not he, you are to be congratulated -- If g the ventilation is poor, you, unfortunately, will be the 10 fellows who will have to stand the gaff, I am afraid# Now, what we propose to do here Is for our welder to 11 strike an arc and show you exactly how the fume which Is 12 generated from that arc can be drawn away from the vicinity 13 of the welding operation, what the right way to do it is and 14 15 what the wrong way to do it is# We have down here to my left a fan which has been lent 16 17 to us by the Coppls Fan Company In Worcester, Massachusetts. 18 They have also provided us with a length of flexible rubber 19 ized fabric exhaust tube, which is on the further end of our 20 fan# We bring that out In our minimum ventilation standards 21 as an accepted method for discharging fumes, and also as a good method for introducing fumes for general ventilation. 22 The hose on the intake end of this fan is a rubberized 23 flexible metal hose used exclusively for local ventilation, 24 25 local exhaust# lit 58k Now, as you all know, It is not enough for a local' ex* 1 haust hose to be held in the sane compartment with a welding 2 operation* That simply provides the elimination of approxi 8 mately 200 cubic feet per minute from that compartment, and 4 does not even begin to take the welding fumes away* If, on 5 6 the other hand, this hose is held in close proximity to the 7 welding operation it will pick up almost 100 per cent of your B fumes, and before they ever get a ohance to contaminate the 9 working space in whioh your welding operation is being car* 10 ried on, they are outdoors* 11 Suppose we start up this welding operation. First of 12 all, we will show you that if the hose is held close enough 13 to the welding operation it will pick up the fumes* If the 14 hose is not held close enough to the welding operation the 15 fumes will be disseminated into the room 16 (Here followed a demonstration of welding*) 17 MR* ROSS: Now, you can by a simple device find out 18 [whether the hose in your own yard has enough pull on them 19 |so that that sons of Influence reaches to the arc. 20 Yesterday afternoon, John Ege and I went down to a place where neon signs are manufactured, and we asked a fellow if 21 he had an old piece of glass tube* He did, and we made this 22 little monometer which you see here, which you see is a piece 23 of straight glass tube bent into the shape of a "U" Now, 24 25 about two diameters from the end of this hose -- * in other 59k L4 1 words, that Is a three-inch hose, six inches from the ena ~ 2 we have drilled a little hole approximately 3/16 of an inch 3 in diameter, and with the aid of that hole we can establish 4 what the suction pressure is in that hose, simply with this & little monometer 6 The procedure is to insert this tube into the hole which 7 you have drilled in the hose, and if the hose 16 a three-inch g IIhose, which we have here, and that is, of oourse, the stand- 9 ard diameter A two-inch difference in the water leg of this 20 monometer *- that probably is not very clear to you if you 21 are not familiar with the use of a monometer, but we can take 12 it up later in detail if you care to -- the two-inch differ* 13 enoe in the height of this water leg represents 200 cubic 14 ||feet per minute through the three-inch hose 15 Now, that is not true of a hose of another diameter 15 The height of the water leg will be different, but it can be 17 determined by a very simple arithmetical procedure, and simply 18 with the aid of this little piece of glass tubing, and a 19 3/16 inch drill you can go through your shipyards and find 20 out whether your hoses ere pulling enough air so the zone of 2 1 Influence will reach out and get the fumes away from the 22 welding operation Six to eight inches from the aro sounds 23 unreasonable, since a man will probably make a bead so that 24 ||he will be in the zone of influence throughout the length of 2g none of his wires 119 Now, there le another trick which we saw for the f lret 1 time on our recent Inspection of some of the yards on the 2 3 West Coast. Let us take a look at this. It is simply a 4 little vacuum cleaner which has the metal hose attaohed to 5 it on the lefthand side, and it demonstrates very clearly 6 that a vacuum cleaner hag will pick up welding fumes and 7 hold them. This does not require any exhaust to take your 8 fumes on the outside, hut the fumes are drawn into the vacuum 9 cleaner and are trapped in the hag and they stay there. Let 10 us take a look at this and see how that works. Start that 11 up again, please. 12 (There was a demonstration with the vacuum 13 cleaner drawing off the fumes from the welding.) 14 HR. ROSS j Now, that is our welding demonstration which 15 we wanted to show you. If you have any questions on this, 16 we have quite a large group here, hut I am sure this would 17 he an appropriate time to discuss it. 18 QUESTION: Does that hag hold zinc fumes? 19 HR. ROSS: Yes, it does. 20 QUESTION: It is proposed then that that might he U6ed 21 in tough spots? 22 MR. ROSS: Yes, that might very well he used in a tough 23 spot. It is really quite an ingenious little affair. It 24 is something we have seen only once, hut there is no reason 25 it could not be adapted for use in our yards. 1 V I might mention as a reeult of Dr* Rieke's question that 1 t is particularly desirable to use local exhausts, when the 2 peration is on zino; in other worde, galvanized metal, or 3 'hen it is on painted metal* It is not at all unusual in 4 6 larltlme yards where some of the fittings and some of the 6 >laces to be painted with red lead and later welded, and the 7 ?eld after that being painted once again, and, of course, 8 those fumes that are generated in that process should be 9 Drought out, and they should be brought out at the point of 10 their generation so they won*t be out in the department con- 11 taminating the whole working space. The local exhaust is 12 particularly good for cold weather, since it does not cause 13 air drafts of any particular amount, and does a good clean 14 Job. - 15 QUESTION: Does it take two men to operate that gadget? 16 MR. ROSS: That is a very good point, 17 QUESTION* I say that, because where I come from we have 18 a pretty small inner bottom and pretty small forepeaks, and 19 sometimes we have to try to squeeze three welders down there 20 and half a dozen other people want to oome down and look at 21 it, and so forth, and I know if I try to get six welders in 22 there and a man to help each welder, I will have to make the 23 ships bigger or make the men smaller* 24 MR. ROSS: The question is: Does it take two men to 25 operate this local exhaust, and the answer is, No.* It is a little more difficult to handle the tube such as we have here,| because It would not stay where It points. It has to be held as It is, lying along the deck. But the metal hose, such as we have In this vacuum cleaner, Is better In that respect. * We do not advocate the use of the one or the other. I simply mention that It Is possible for the welder to prop this thing up In the general vicinity of his welding Job. QUESTION; But he could not hold It six Inches from his i arc. It would be Impossible. MR. ROSS: It depends, of course, on where he Is weld ing. QUESTION: Suppose he has to do some other welding, some side plate welding, he would have to rig up a little gadget to hang It there. He might do that. MR. ROSS: Yes, he might do that. He must use his In genuity and see If he cannot hold It close to his arc. If he cannot U6e the local exhaust, why, of course, he will re sort to ventilation by dilution. QUESTION: That Is what we do, or we try to do It. MR. ROSS: Yes. As a rule, you will find It Is going to require a combination of both. QUESTION: How close can you get that hoee to the aro before it has any effect on the welding prooesst MR. ROSSj The hose should be within six or eight lnehee of the arc. QUESTION: What is the closest you can get? HR. ROSS: I would imagine that would be determined largely by circumstances. It would not interfere a bit. If you get it very d o s e , eventually it would begin to pick up the sparks, your spark bouncing from this welding opera tion and carrying down into the tube. As long as you are not exhausting in a spot that is dangerous, they will go out be fore they get very far# QUESTION: Don't you think it would be well to tell abou`. the efficiency of the type of bell horn, which increases the efficiency of the house approximately 80 per cent? UR. ROSS: I have not seen a figure as high as that# However, the efficiency is increased substantially when a bell mouth is put onto the end of this hose# In fact, al most any 6hape helps a great deal# This plate holds the most efficient type of hose which you can use for ventilation purposes, and a flaring mouth or bell mouth, or almost any thing, even a straight flange across the end of this, will help to extend that zone of Influence over what it is where the plate ends# It sometimes is difficult to adopt that on a local exhaust, since the bell mouth might then interfere with carrying it around and getting into tight places# QUESTION: How about the four-inch hose? MR. ROSS: The four-inch hose is a matter of choice, between three and four inches. The four-inch hose is, of 1 course, a little more bulky, and possibly would not be so 2 easy to get Into tight places, but that Is a matter of pref 3 erence, and I am sure there Is a good deal to be said for 4 each# 5 QUESTION: I wanted to ash a question# About four years 6 ago I was in Jacksonville, Florida, In a drydock, at Merrill 7 Stevens We were repairing a ship down there, and they had B five or six welders In the bottom of an Inner bottom, and they 9 had a large Induced dreft fan# It was sitting right where the 10 welder was In the Inner bottom without any general ventlla- 1 1 I tion, and all he did was Just as fast as these six welders 12 were welding, it would bring those fumes right up through the 13 hole like that* Would that be a good idea, to use something 14 1 like that, or is this better? 15 MR. ROSS: Of course, the fellows who like this, or the 16 fellows who like dilution by general ventilation are pretty 17 1 evenly;, divided. I think this is more efficient because you 18 have to remove a lot of air to clear out a compartment by that 19 method, whereas only two hundred o.f.m* will do the same Job 20 here* It Is a difficult question to answer, and I think it 21 1 depends entirely on circumstances# 22 II QUESTION: We nearly had a very unfortunate situation 23 | with rubber hose in our yard* We Just about smothered seven 24 imen* We were very fortunate in getting them out. So we 25 personally would not allow any rubber hose inside the ship at I2S 1 all* 2 MR* ROSSr That le a very Interesting observation. We 3 used this rubber hose simply because it happened to come 4 with our display equipment. We do not necessarily say that 5 it is the thing to do 6 QUESTION: After it has been used for a while} it will 7 become frayed and the canvas will catch the sparks, and you 8 a fire as sure as the world. I know we had a lot 9 of trouble with it, and we finally threw all the rubber hose 10 out 11 MR* ROSS: That is very interesting. 12 QUESTION: Mr. Chairman, at Marine Ship we use flexible 13 metal hose, three-inch, and we have a similar set-up, but it 14 is very difficult to get your hose within six inches where 15 a production welder might be welding in an inner bottom. If 16 you have ever been down in an inner bottom you will find the 17 three-inch flexible hoee cannot bend back on itself within 18 thirty inches from the floor, and so it is not absolutely 19 practical from the viewpoint of a production welder, where 20 you get six or seven of them in an inner bottom tank. We 21 have provided a long five-inch main duct off which we take 22 the three inches, and we figure if we can get it within a 23 oouple of feet in an inner bottom, when they are getting down 24 olose to the deep tanks, we are doing pretty well. But the 25 flexible pipe has proved pretty successful with us for that. 1 MR, ROSS} That ie a good point. As a matter of fact, "2 we have paid a great deal of attention to inner bottoms. We 3 practically slept in them at one time or another to see what 4 the conditions are in there, and I will agree with you it is 5 not the easiest thing to use these coils of hose in that con 6 fined space* Again, the circumstances will govern the pro 7 cedure* I think if you get this hose to wind in among the B manholes of your flooring, that will possible do it. But it 9 is a good point* 10 QUESTION: These ventilating standards are somewhat sim 11 ilar to the safety standards and are of the shall be* and 12 must be" type. In other words, as you have in that safety 13 standards you have "shall be" and "will be"* 14 MR, ROSS: Well, sir, we are taking quite a practical 15 viewpoint of this whole thing. As far as we are concerned, 16 we think that you will feel that it "shall be"* In other 17 words, we are simply after ventilation, adequate ventilation* 18 We want to see the ships clean and the men breathing ac 19 ceptable air* ' 20 QUESTION} That ie quite true from a humanitarian stand 21 point, but I am wondering as far as your phraseology is con 22 cerned, where it says "shall be" and in the other meeting it 23 says "shall be" it means "do it" 24 MR. r o s s j you may find the wording a little abrupt, I 25 will agree* 1 QUESTION; You have to be abrupt if you want to get it 2 done S UR. ROSS; That le what we want* I think we are both 4 after the eame thing The wording does not necessarily have 5 to come up between us 6 Gentlemen, our time is quite short. We have right here 7 Mr, John Ege, who has some very interesting things to present 8 to the group, and I will now turn the meeting over to him. 9 MR. JOHN F EGE, Jr., (Ensign, Boston, Massachusetts); 10 First of all I would like to talk a little bit on respirators 11 If you all have your health minimum standards you will find 12 in Section B a discussion on respirators ^3 The most important point, you notice there, is that the 14 respirators must be Bureau of Mines approved. Now, I have 15 I for your perusal here pictures of all the respirators which 16 are Bureau of Mines approved, and X will leave that up here 17 on the desk, and if any of you are Interested in it, you can 18 come up after the meeting and look it over 19 The advantages of having respirators which must meet 20 with Bureau of Mines approval are obvious. The respirators 2 1 then will be adequate, and will give adequate protection, and 22 are welledesigned, 23 You will notice under the general requirements that ade~ 24 quate protection ie designed and it is recommended that the 16 25 respirators be comfortable. 1 In the following pages, where more than one type of 2 respirator Is mentioned, the choice depends on the degree of 3 the hazard which you have at hand 4 I would like to say a few words about the lead hazard 6 again* You have heard about this paint spray hazard, and 6 about the fume hazard caused by welding lead painted surfaces. 7 As you all probably know, it is a very difficult Job to 8 ventilate lead fumes down to the concentration which would not 9 cause lead poisoning. The figure is .15 milligrams per tenth 10 of a cubio meter of air. Now, ten mIElgrams per cubic foot 11 of air is a concentration which none of you would believe to 12 be especially bad. For instance, upstairs thlsmoming in the 13 room the concentration- of smoke in the air was probably about 14 five milligrams, or possibly ten. To e2^>ect people to beware 15 of a hazard when the concentration must be kept down to less 16 than two-tenths of a millimeter is something that is almost 17 Impossible to ask, I suppose 18 We are insisting that respirators be Bureau of Mines 19 approved for lead fumes, and I have here samples which the 20 two companies having approval have supplied me. These are 21 MSA respirators. There are four types here. 22 This one has approval for metal fumes. This one has 23 approval for metal fumes, and is designed to fit under a 24 w e l d e A hood. They have also two other respirators here, 25 one of which is designed to fit the face of women, and there I6C 1 are also two respirators here whioh have not as yet the ap 2 proval of the Bureau of Hines for lead mists, that is, those 3 caused by spray painting However, these approvals are be-* 4 lieved to be forthcoming soon I will leave these respirators 5 up here and you may come up after the meeting and look them 6 over Willson Products have supplied us with three respirat 7 ors, two of which are designed for lead fumes, and these are 8 the respirators that are to be used in controlling the problem 9 of lead fumes I will leave both of these up here and you 10 can look at these after the meeting is over* 11 In both types of respirators here we have replaceable 12 paper fillers, which are thrown away You all realize the 13 advantage of having such a system. It does not mean that you 14 have to throw the complete respirator away. You need only 15 throw away a small felt or paper filler, which is very in 16 expensive* 17 There are salesmen in attendance here from eaoh of the 18 companies* There is Mr. Charlton from the Willson Products, 19 and Hr. Hehaffey of Mine Safety Appliances, and both of these 20 gentlemen would be glad to discuss your respirator problems 21 with you and tell you a little bit more about the respirators 22 that are being shown here today* 23 Now, in connection with lead poisoning, it is also 24 gecessary to do some type of air analysis or urinalysis to 25 establish whether or not there is a hazard present. We have 129 i a laboratory set up on the East and West Coasts rhlch can 2 run through these analyses for you if you desire, I have 3 brought along with me a mimeographed sheet which describes 4 the analytical methods of the determination of lead In both 5 urine and blood and If there are any of you here who desire 6 one of these you can get it after the meeting 7 In connection with welding, again, I would like simply 8 to say something about the nature of welding fumes when bare 9 steel or black Iron is welded The Intense heat of the arc 10 vaporizes the metals, and these oxidize In the air and are 11 constituents of the fumes. There are also substances of an 12 organic nature which constitute part of the fume* The color 13 of this fume is a brownish chocolate color, I suppose all of 14 you have seen it at some time or other 15 Now, in connection with welding, there are some gases 16 formed. Oxide of nitrogen and ozone are typical examples. 17 The welders themselves, of course, notice the effect of these 18 fumes on them, and there are two types of individuals, In 19 general; those who fear the worst is going to happen when they 20 breathe these welding fumes, and there is the other extreme, 21 the Individual who does not think that anything could pos 22 slbly happen to him when he breathes the fumes of welding 23 arcs, and this type of Individual is also a problem 24 In order to clear up the situation as to Just how bad 25 conditions are, we have designed a sampling Instrument which 1 01? / 7 .; r. * ' - 17 utilizes a piece of filter paper. The Instrument was designed 1 2- by us in about two or three days. It consists of a Sears 3 Roebuck pump and a few other metal parts which are available 4 in almost any machine shop* If any of you desire, you could 5 have these pop guns or pump guns, whatever you want to call 6 them, made up, and then you would have a very rapid method 7 of determining just how bad your fume conditions are* 8 Our standards were made on the basis of three strokes of 9 the pump gun, and I have here the standard colors which are 10 formed on the paper* These are simply the stains of the 11 welding fumes, and in practice all that is necessary is to 12 just take three strokes of the gun, take the paper out, and ' 13 14 compare it with the standard* You then have an analysis in just that much time* You know exactly what the concentration 15 of fumes in the air is* Since we have also set up standards, 16 it is very simple to decide on the spot whether your air 17 conditions are below par or excellent or just what they are* 18 The six men who are to go with Maritime Commiesion/on this II * 19 health program will each have 6uoh an instrument, and they 20 could go through your shipyard with you and tell you in a 21 fraction of a section Just how good or bad your fume condi- 22 litlone are* * 23 I would like to take a test over the welding aro itself 24 and show you the stain that was formed* I imagine it would 25 be very much darker than any of these I have* These standards II M 131 1 were prepared by welding In a fume chamber. The air was kept 2 In constant circulation and the concentrations of fume In the 3 air were determined by standard methods, and then by taking 4 samples with the gun at intervals we arrived at this standard, 5 which is that of 30 milligrams of fume per cubic meter of air, 6 (A demonstration here followed) ' 7 MR. EGE: That was about one stroke of the pump, and it 8 is far in excess of anything you can see on these standards. 9 After the meeting you can all come up and take a look at the 10 pump that we have and see how it works, and decide among 11 yourselves whether any of you would like to have such an 12 instrument in your possession 13 We have also developed one other instrument for sampling 14 fumes and air* At present there are two methods of sampling 15 lead fumes, sine fumes and other metal oxide fumes. Both of 16 these methods we felt were not good enough for our purposes, 17 so we set out to develop a method which would be much simpler 18 and much easier to handle in the field It consists of a 19 vacuum cleaner pump, an ordinary household piece of equip** 20 ment, and a device for holding a piece cf filter paper in a 21 funnel-like apparatus. The air is simply drawn through the 22 filter paper, and the fumes are collected on the paper. 23 We ran some extensive tests on the collection efficiency 24 of this instrument for lead fumes. The efficiencies were 25 extremely high and the instrument had tohnyiadvantagee over 1 the present methods of collection* 133 2 We have these instruments in both laboratories, that is, S on each coast, ana with these we would make the fume d e t e m n 4 inatlone* 6 X would like to show this equipment and show you how It 6 works* 7 (Demonstration continued) . 8 MR. EGE: On the second test we get this fume collected 9 on the paper* Now, we have found this instrument to have a 10 very high collection efficiency for lead fumes, and it will 11 work also, equally as well, for those of sine or any other 12 metal fumes you come in contact with in the shipbuilding in 13 dustry. This is a device we have made, and if any of you 14 care to look it over after the meeting, you may do so* 15 QUESTION: After we do make up one of those, how are we 16 to know what we are looking at? 17 MR. EGE: As I said before, it is not intended that each 18 of the safety engineers or each of the yards build this piece 19 of equipment. In the first plaoe, it requires the work of 20 a chemist to determine Just what the fume concentration is, 21 and it would be impractical for the safety engineers of the 22 plants to do that type of work. However, with thle other 23 sampler, you need only a stain on a piece of paper to determine> 24 Just what your conditions are, and that is what we recommend. 25 QUESTION: Are you prepared to give us those various 166 1 oolor chart? 2 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: We will If you ask for them# 3 MR. EGE: As a matter of fact, the color chart Is prob 4 ably untieoeseary, because you will see, If you come up later, 6 the first standard has a stain on It which Is Just per 6 ceptible. That was made with one stroke of the gun. Con 7 sequently, if you went out with one of these instruments and B Just used one strike and got a stain on the paper, or one 9 that was Just barely perceptible, your conditions would be 10 good. The difference between that one and the one on the 11 end are easily remembered by anyone. Bo a whole series of 12 these standards would not be necessary for you. 13 DR. REIKE: Is that standard In relation to some par 14 ticular number, or Just nuisance dust in general, or what? 15 MR. EGE: The fume was generated in a welding chamber. 16 It was done on black iron with standard welding rods. We 17 have tried three or four other rods and the stain on all of 18 them is identical. We Just go out in the yard and use it 19 under the conditions that we find. That is the set-up that 20 we have so far arrived at in offering a service to the Mari 21 time Commission yards. We are set up to analyze for any 22 fume dust, mie_t, gas or vapor which causes occupational 23 diseases. 24 QUESTION: Mr, Ege, you have been mentioned here the 25 possibility of lead fumes from welding on pre-painted red 1 lead surfaces* It has been called to our attention that 2 several cases have resulted from the use of hot rivets on 3 holes that had been drilled, and the red lead had penetrated 4 into the Inside of the hole Considerable study was made 5 at the time that It was found, and It was found that there 6 was no particular reason for using red lead, it is more of 7 a custom than anything else, and it seems to me that one of 8 the things that might develop from this meeting is the fact g that a recommendation be made, possibly to the Maritime Com 10 mission Construction Section, that a lacquer which is equally n good as a preservative for steel plate could be used in place 12 of the red lead that is used supposedly as a preservative. 13 While it does act as a preservative, I do not think it is 14 essential. 15 MR. EGE: Dr. Drinker took that subject up with the 16 doctors before the safety engineers came down, and he will 17 speak a little more about that later. 18 I might point out that not only welding on lead painted 19 surfaces, but any operation at all in which terrific heat is 20 involved, will vaporize the lead and oreate Just as serious 21 a hazard as welding will. 22 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: There is nothing we welcome more than 23 to have thi6 organization take the position that early paint * 24 ing with read lead when something else could be used should 25 be stopped, and to make a recommendation that the red lead io 1 painting be avoided If this group will take a strong posi 2 tion on that, I think it will have a very definite effect. S The easiest way to get out of this possible lead poisoning is 4 to avoid the lead painting if something else can be done in5 etead, and it would seem to me such a thing as Hr. Kaye has 6 suggested Is a very logical way out of it. We do not want to 7 make analyses any more than you want to have them made. We 8 would like to avoid this lead hasard. The easiest way to 9 avoid it is not to use the lead until after the welding has 10 been done. 11 How, gentlemen, when Hr. Roes was discussing ventilation, 12 it was asked if on this Section 2~D there were any "musts'1 or 13 "shalls". There definitely are, and I can point out a few 14 of them. 15 On Page 2~D on the local exhausts, we have specifications 16 in the first paragraph suggesting what the fan's oapaoity 17 should be. Designedly we do not name the fan. It does not 18 make any difference what you use as long as It will do the 19 work. We suggest there if you get a fan for a local exhaust 20 that it be capable of drawing 200 c.f.m. through the flexible 21 hose, and again a little further down, where general ventila** 22 tlon is discussed, under B, the second paragraph, that two- 23 line paragraph,"It is desirable sometimes to supply a quantity 24 of fresh air into the double bottom. Here a 2,000 c.f.m. unit 25 may be used." 136 Two paragraphs below that, again, there are some definite 1 2 figures giving capacities of the fan* Finally, in next to the last paragraph, the final sen-* 3 4 tence, it says, *A minimum of 400 e.f.m. per welder shall be supplied to a given working space, such as a deep tank when 6 general ventilation is used alone." 6 The question has been brought up as to what these weld 7 ing fumes may do, and what the health hazard really is. There 8 are plenty of Instances now to show that welding, even on 9 black iron in a confined space, is a bad practice and an un~ 10 healthful one. The reasons may be due to the metal fumes. 11 They are probably due to a combination of the metal fumes, 12 and the slight amount of toxic gas which we get* Acoldents 13 from welding and serious illness from welding on black iron 14 15 are very rare, very rare Indeed. By and large, welding in 16 an open space is not unhealthful* This demonstration would 17 have been a perfectly good example. It would not have been 18 unhealthful in any way for the welder to weld here without 19 any ventilation You can see the same thing being done in shops practically all over the country with no bad results, 20 but that is avery different matter from putting four or five 21 welders in a deep tank with no ventilation. When you get on 22 galvanized iron and are welding in double bottoms where 23 galvanized piping is being installed, the men are breathing 24 zinc oxide, and you can get the chills and iferer, and you will, 25 137 1 Anybody will get them* If the man le exposed and breathing 2 It, he will get them* But they are very, very easy to draw 3 oft* But to say that it can be done with Impunity without 4 ventilation le absurd, because it cannot. The men will have 6 trouble. They always have and always will, as long as they 6 breathe the zinc oxide fumes* 7 DH. RIEKE: The point is brought up, what Is a confined 8 space in a Liberty boat? The question arises, is it In the 9 hold or is it in the foredeck exclusively and shaft alley and 10 double bottoms? Just how big Is a confined space. That is 11 a question, I do not ask you for an exact definition, I ask 12 for a relatively close definition. That comes up all the time, 13 Some man down in the hold says that it is too smoky in there 14 for him* Now, is that your idea of a confined space, or what 15 is it? 16 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: The betting is pretty good if you 17 look at it and see that it is good and thick with smoke, that 18 it is too smoky* 19 DR, RIEKE: Would that cause chronic disease, or would 20 you care to say? 21 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: No* I would bet against it; if it was black iron I would bet against the chronic aspect* 22 DR, RIEKE: It might cause acute tracheobronchitis* 23 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: Definitely. 24 DR, RIEKE: Not enough to make him seriously ill* 25 i 00 1 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: I will agree. 2 Mr. Roche asked that the safety engineers1 group please S remain here, as he wishes to continue his discussion In this 4 room. We will leave the equipment we have here, and I hope 5 very much that the doctors, if they want to stay for the 6 safety engineers* meeting will do so. They will he very 7 welcome. However, those of you fellows who would like to 8 adjourn to one of the other rooms, so that we can continue 9 this discussion informally, may do so. 10 QUESTION: Just before you do, my question was about 11 the "shells" a n d 'fausts*, et cetera. That on the first page 12 of Section D -- not necessarily the remainder of it, but the 13 first pege -- pertaining to the personnel of the department 14 and ventilation standards -- * has that been approved as yet? 15 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: That was not meant to be in the 16 shall" state. We put that out as a feeler to see your re 17 action. There is nothing uniform at all in the way ventila 18 tion is handled in the yards. If we could get a semblance 19 of uniformity within some limits of common sense, we would 20 like to do it. We think the ventilation ought to be under 21 the safety.department, but we did not feel like putting it in 22 as a "must" or "shall". In some cases, we know good yards 23 where they have good ventilation arrangements now, and they 24 are not the same as we have suggested here. If they are 25 good and working, we certainly do not intend to interfere, 1 and that la the reason they are not in the "shall" 2 QUESTION: It is in the "shall" here S CHAIRMAN DRINKER: Let. us say we are starting from 4 scratch, then . 5 UR RING: Before the doctors leave, I ant to ask a 6 couple of questions. I always have to get right down on the 7 beam on this thing 6 Is it definitely understood there is a complete agree 9 ment here as far a6 the medical side is concerned on the 10 minimum medical standards except those things the committee 11 is going to handle, which I understand is pre-placement 12 examinations and periodic check-ups, and the addition of 13 shortage of physicians.in the yards If it isn't, let us 14 hear it right now, and if we need more time, let us take more 15 time to go in and examine anything we need. Let us not rush 16 anything aoross How about it now? I will oount three, and 17 if I do not hear a dissent by the time three comes down, I 18 will take it for granted that it is understood 19 DR SPENCER! Gentlemen, in the South -- I do not know 20 anything about the rest of the country there can be no 21 question about the venereal diseases being the most import 22 ant point in these yards. In Savannah one of the yards took 23 blood tests on all of the employees, which were approximately 24 50 per cent erhlte and 50 per cent colored, and found 19 per 25 cent positive 140 1 The federal government telle us we can get from seven y 2 to nine cases of gonorrhea for each case of syphilis* It Is S a matter of common knowledge to everybody that syphilis is a 4 debilitating condition, and gonorrhea, although more briefly, 5 is a disabling condition for a few days* 6 In many cases the Department of Health is urgently 7 anxious to help us in all ways they can* If they can get a 8 little help, they will come into the yards and establish 9 treatment centers for a minimum of cost, and do a maximum 10 amount of good, and I wonder if we could go on record of 11 asking the Karltime Commission to give a little consideration 12 to the local health departments to enable them to take this 13 problem off our hands. 14 MR* RING: Am I correct or incorrect that the Public 15 Health Service is conducting a nationwide campaign along that 16 line, that they have set up clinics at various points for 17 treatment at various places? It is my recollection that that 18 is one of the reasons we skirted clear of the venerftal dis 19 ease proposition when we were drawing up these standards was 20 that there' had already been 6et afoot by Dr. Parren a pretty 21 widespread campaign. Am I wrong in that? . 22 DR. SPENCER: You are not wrong in that. There are in 23 numerable treatment centers available to people who will go 24 there and get treatment, but a great many of the shipyard 25 workers commute long distances, and a great many of them tell 1 u b they are unable to meet the hours In which these clinics 2 are held open and the length of time it takes a man to leave 3 the Job and go to one of these treatment centers and come 4 baok is unreasonable* 6 CHAIRMAN DRINKER? How would it be If we communicated 6 with the Public Health Service and suggested to them that in 7 any yard where it appears there is a necessity for treatment 8 centers to take some action along that line? I am sure the 9 Public Health Sendee has been cooperating with us in such a 10 way that they will probably do everything in their power to 11 help out along that line* It will be definitely understood, 12 then, that will be the procedure in any yard where they feel 13 there is a definite indication that there is a need existing 14 for a treatment center in the yard to ash the Public Health 15 Service to do something about setting that up* I will do 16 that as soon as we get word in from the various yards on that* 17 DR* RIEKE: My only suggestion on that is, you are not 18 in a position to carry through in many localities on that 19 program* I would simply indicate to them our willingness to 20 cooperate with the Public Health programs* No one will argue 21 that venereal disease needs control, but many local physi 22 cians in many of the areas in the country feel that shipyard 23 workers are in a good position to take care of the treatment. 24 In other words, the Maritime Commission is not m a position 25 to say to any local area, RYou must do thus and so about . . 142 1 venereal disease. 2 MR* CLARENCE MAYHEW, (Labor Management, Marine Ship, 3 California)! What about treatment of the common cold? I 4 was upstairs in the safety engineers, and I wondered if this & group had discussed the treatment of the common cold in the 6 MaiStime Commission yards. It Beems to me on the West Coast, 7 where we have so much rain and working outside, that that is B one of the biggest problems. I was wondering if it had been 9 brought up before this committee? 10 MR* RINQ; I will ask Dr. Drinker to answer that, be 11 cause I was up at the civil engineers most of the time. 12 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: We did not discuss here the common 13 cold at all, or any illness other than industrial. Frankly, 14 if we can stay out of it, why, we would like to. The import 15 ance of it I will admit. 16 MR. MAYHEW: The workers would like to stay out of it, 17 too. IB CHAIRMAN DRINKER: So would all the rest of us, and our 19 wives and our children. I have not seen a single industrial 4 20 program yet that copes with the common cold in a way they 21 are especially proud of. We cannot answer that. I mean, we 22 have not anything especial to hold out for you 23 MR. MAYHEW: Some of the aircraft factories prescribed 24 some programs. 25 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: Not with any signal success. 143 1 DR# CROFT: A man from Abbott & Company came around to 2 Bee me the other day, and he had a folder in which they 3 claimed large reductions In the lost days from colds by the 4 vaccines, but there Is no way In the world of making that man 5 take them* He Is to take one a day for seven daye^ and then 6 one twice a week for the rest of the winter, and the chances 7 are they throw them away* It Is very unsatisfactory, from 8 my experience 9 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: From a health standpoint, frankly, I 10 do not think the Maritime Commission and the Navy would get 11 away with It, I would hate to see us try It, I do not think 12 we could get anywhere* Maybe we could, 13 DR, SPENCER: One of the questions that troubles us a 14 great deal is tetanus, especially In the yards where they 15 build concrete ships and they get deep punctured wounds all 16 the time The administration of the antl-tetanlc serum Is a 17 dangerous procedure In some cases, especially where It has 18 been repeated time after time* Moreover, It Is a question of 19 how long the administration lasts from a prophylactic dose, 20 I wonder if Dr, Drinker would arise us of the possibility of 21 dealing with antl~tetanlo Immunization, that Is, an anti 22 tetanus toxoid, and not a serum? 23 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: I do not see how we can evade that 24 one* I would like to. We have not considered that. I think 25 very possibly we should have* I would like to have a chance 1 to think of that. I cannot answer that right off the bat as 2 to what we ought to do. I am frank to confess I think we 3 ought to do something. 4 DR* RIEKE: I would suggest there are all sorts of things 5 of that sort that are local problems, and the Maritime Com 6 mission cannot attempt to take a definite stand on them* 7 For Instance, our fluoroscopic heads were removed from 8 our yards a few days ago on account of some unfortunate ac-* 9 cidents at Los Angeles. At any rate, I would say they con 10 sider the use of toxoid if it is enough of a problem. 11 At Portland, it is not. We have thought about it and 12 discussed It, but have not felt that we as a prophylactic 13 measure could even go into the idea of toxoid. So again I 14 feel that is a local problem which the Uax&lme Commission 15 would be looking for trouble on if they tried to generalize 16 too widely. 17 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: I think it would be a local problem. 18 If we wanted to give any such immunization it would be extra 19 ordinarily difficult to give it to all of the men In the 20 yard. There would not be any way of enforcing it. It is not 21 a problem such as the army or navy have where they are hand 22 ling recruits. We can profit from their experience, but we 23 cannot do it the way they ere doing, and we could not get 24 away with it. 25 MR. HAL C. FRAZIER, (Houston Shipbuilding Corporation, 145 1 Houston, Texas); in Section C It says, An eye flash shall 2 fee treated only by the doctor," . . S CHAIRMAN DRINKER; It says, or by methods prescribed by 4 him, does it not? It says that somewhere* 5 MR* FRAZIER; That is in Section C, effects on workers* 6 CHAIRMAN DRINKER; That could be modified to use only 7 treatments that are supervised or prescribed by the doctor* 8 That Is a good point. I agree that ought to be changed* We 9 will change It* 10 MR. BARON D. SNIDER, (Marine Ship Corporation, Sanallto, 11 California); I am not speaking as a medical man, Doctor, but 12 I am advised by some of the Industrial doctors that one of 13 the difficulties in treating eye flashes is that the men do 14 not experience these symptoms until perhaps in the evening 15 when they are far away from the medical center of the yards. 16 The result Is that they go to the general hospital or to a 17 hospital which perhaps has not concentrated on the industrial 18 arc flash and gives a relief which is not only temporary but 19 actually irritates the condition itself, and by the time the 20 workman comes into the shipyard the next morning his condi~ 21 tion is aggravated and it takes twice as long for him to get 22 over it. At Marine, our medical director has reported that 23 that has happened quite frequently, because many of their 24 workers do not live in quite proximity to the yard* I am 25 if any sort of action oan be taken whioh would per- . 14 tr 1 haps set forth a general procedure for these Institutions 2 to follow for the treatment In euoh cases S CHAIRMAN DRINKER: If you will look at the standards you 4 will see that we purposely have not prescribed treatment in 5 detail in any single one of them We prefer not to do so if 6 we can We would rather leave that up to the individual 7 hysician. The yards, by and large, are getting the best " b medical help they can From the inspections we made they 9 were good, in our opinion 10 MR SNIDER: We found a seriouB problem in our particu 11 lar yard There were many men who were going to outside 12 sources for treatment when they wake up at night, 13 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: 'You mean because they were away from 14 the yard? 15 MR SNIDER: Yes, they have not access to it at that 16 time of night 17 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: I think that is a point we can dis 18 cuss in the medical group tomorrow, and we will 19 MR, SMITH: I have one question, please, on Page 3-D* 20 You spoke a while ago about ventilation in confined spaces. 21 Three or four sentences there in that are very applicable, 22 to decrease an accident from breathing fumes, et cetera, and 23 the last one, about the side plate, has that been taken up, 24 the side plate being left off? Has that been taken up with 25 the Maritime Commission? 1 woAximtuM wnat we round le as you go around in 2 the various yards in some places it was all right to take off 3 the side plates, and in others not. The Maritime Commission 4 itself has no objection to that. They leave it up to the 5 individual yards, 6 MR. SMITH: That is a definite ruling from the Maritime? 7 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: They leave it up to the yard, 8 MR. SMITH: Well, how about cutting a hole through? 9 In other words, is it a standard size, or does a man have 10 to stoop to go through or crawl over, and also additional 11 excess holes for the ho6e? 12 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: We found the same thing there, too} 13 that ruling would vary with the yards. They leave a great 14 deal of leeway on that,. 15 MR. RELLER: What oan the Maritime Commission do to help 16 us having the Selective Service taking the local doctor from 17 our town? We talked in the medical group about the trouble 18 we are going to have getting doctors to come in to meet this 19 personnel standard we are setting up 20 CHAIRMAN DRINKER: That is the very thing we are going 21 to take up and put in a resolution tomorrow in a general meet 22 ing. We will answer that definitely. What the result will 23 be, we also hope, 24 MR, RING: I have not heard any objection to your general 25 etandards, except as noted here in one or two 1 Now, If that is the deal, it Is the deal. 148 I 2 Now, Mr. Roche wants to get on with the safety side of 3 it. Are there any objections? 4 TR. RIEKE: I have one more. On Section 0, under 5 "Flash burns," J take exception -- and I may be wrong -- to 6 the statement that, "A flash is a surface eye burn resulting 7 from even momentary unprotected exposure to the welding arc." 8 I object to that use "from even momentary unprotected ex 9 posure." It is a small point, but one of the points I have 10 run into repeatedly is the misconception that moEt arc flash 11 ing occurs from one bright arc, and the man rune into the 12 first aid station and says, "Give me some of those magic 13 drops to prevent any trouble." We put eye drops in their 14 eye, and he goes home, and has no trouble. He says, "Boss, 15 those are certainly swell drops for preventing eye trouble." 16 We have through the year had a lot of patients come in to 17 get medicine to prevent them developing symptoms. I think 18 that should be changed to, "A flash is a surface eye burn 19 resulting from undue exposure," or "unexpected exposure to 20 the welding arc." 21 MR. RING: Do you think even momentary exposure should 22 be eliminated? Why don't you be on the safe side and say 23 from exposure"? Say "exposure" and you are safe as you can 24 be. Isn't that what the scientists always want to do? They 25 want to be on the safe side, so they make the language so 149 1 vague that nobody understands it 2 DR* McCOY: Something that Is not covered here Is the 3 practice of nurses removing foreign bodies* They are not 4 legally so qualified to carry on that operation* Will they 5 be qualified because of the practice under war, or are they 6 going to be held down technically and slapped behind the 7 bare? 8 MR* RING: Dr, Drinker here is looking for a section 9 that he says states that nurses are prohibited from that* 10 DR* McCOY: As a matter of fact, on the West Coast that 11 is the practice* . 12 MR. RING: Dr* Drinker in a very nice and polite and 13 snaky way wants to know whether you read the third paragraph 14 under Section C, that part that says, "For use of safety 15 departments in shipyards; a guide for prevention of indus 16 trial disease in shipyards," where it says: "Foreign bodies 17 in the eye shall be removed under the doctor*s orders only 18 and by methods he has prescribed*" 19 DR. McCOY: That does not cover it* If I stand over a 20 nurse and tell him he is to remove that foreign body from 21 the eye, that does not oover it, because he is not legally 22 qualified, even though I tell him to, to do it* MR. RING: You mean if I get a cinder in my eye I am 23 supposed not to ask anybody to put the end of a handkerchief 24 25 in to get it out unless it is a doctor? 150 1 DR McCOY; Embedded corneal bodies, where he is using 2 an instrument* 3 MR. RING: It only says here "foreign bodies in the eye 4 shall be removed only under the doctor^ orders or by methods 6 he has prescribed." If it is not embedded, certainly the 6 doctor can ash somebody else to remove that. If it is em 7 bedded, certainly the doctor will give no such orders as that, 8 and if it isdone by methods by him prescribed, certainly you 9 can say thatif they are embedded you shall not do it I 10 think it is covered. Let us Interpret it as if it is oovered 11 anyway. 12 We will take it for granted, then, that these things 13 are theconsensus of the group, subject to the reports of 14 the committee to come in, beoause we want to know that every 15 body has had a chance to hammer them as much as they want, 16 I hope that Dr* McCoy will not take my remarks along 17 that line as being directed in any manner personally. That 18 is a very good point to be brought up, 19 I want to thank you all very much, Indeed, for the ex 20 cellent and really genuine interest you are putting into this 21 thing. I am really getting proud of this whole thing. I 22 think we have got something here that if it is properly car 23 ried through it will be of a tremendous benefit to the ship 24 building industry, and I only regret that we have such a 25 limited time in which to operate, but everything is moving so 151 1 fast these days, that if we take up much time we wind up 2 behind the "eight ball", eo far as our friends across the sea 3 are concerned, 4 I want to express my thanks to all of the medical men 5 who have been in attendance here, and for all of the work 6 that you have done* 7 (IJhe meeting adjourned) 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 \ 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 152 1 UNITED STATES l&RITIME COMMISSION . AND 2 UNITED STATES NAVY S 4 MEETING IN REGARD TO MINIMUM 5 REQUIREMENTS FOR INDUSTRIAL 6 HEALTH AND SAFETY IN SHIPYARDS. 7 8 Held In the American Room and Century Room, Hotel g LaSalle, Chicago, Illinois, on Monday, December 7, 1942, 10 at two o 'clock p. m., Mr, John Roche, National Safety Council, il Chicago, Illinois, presiding. 12 13 14 -- oOo-- 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 PROCEEDINGS 2 CHAIRUAN ROCHE: This Is not an Informal meeting, but 3 If you will recall, I t o n you this morning to take your hair 4 down and your shoes off, and let us go to town. We are going 5 to read over the item No. 1, and we are going to read them 6 over one at a time. We have about two hours to do it, be 7 cause as soon as we finish here, we are supposed to go down 8 and see the welding and ventilation demonstration in the 9 American Room. So, let us keep our eye on the clock, and 10 discuss down to the point where it is useful. 11 Now, as you rise for any point of discussion, please 12 give your name, your company, and your city. That is for 13 the record, so that you can get due credit for any sugges 14 tions that you might make. 15 How many of you have read this over? 16 (Quite a few.) 17 Are you agreed that we may skip the introduction which 18 is Item . 19 Is there any objection to that? (None) 20 Now, what we would like above all else is to turn out 21 something informative, but we do not want to turn out an 22 encyclopedia, but I say again that we do want all of the 23 things that you now know are causing accidents in shipyards 24 to be included in the set of minimum standards that will 25 control accidents. And if there is anything left out, please 1 let U6 know about it, or if there is anything included in 2 here that you think should not be included, please bring 3 that out. 4 Now, you will remember that we had this previewed, and 5 prediBcuseed by a committee of 13 men from shipyards all over 6 the nation 7 The first paragraph is No, 2, managements part, 8 "2* Management Part. 9 2.1 It is absolutely essential, if a successful acci 10 dent prevention program is to be installed and operated, 11 that top plant management take an active and interested part 12 in the work. The same supervision given any other important 13 activity in the shipyard shall be given the safety program. 14 2.2 The responsibility of management in so far as 15 industrial safety is concerned shall be considered to in 16 clude; 17 (2.21) The provision of a reasonably safe working en 18 vironment. . 19 (2.22) Training of employees for safety. 20 (2.23) Establishment of an accident record and report 21 ing system, 22 (2.24) The appointment, where necessary, of a safety 23 engineer (or a safety director) and staff to install, main 24 tain and properly supervise an accident prevention program. 25 (2.25) The Issuance of instructions to all division 155 - 1 or department heads* foremen, leader or leadingmen or to any 2 persons in a supervisory capacity that they are considered S responsible for accidents which involve employees working 4 under their direction and that they are required to comply 5 with all of the provisions of the accident prevention program 6 in effect in the shipyard. 7 We will go right through that section, and we will come 8 back to it and ask for a discussion. 9 (2.26) An active and interested participation in safety 10 through 11 (a) Review of, and executive action on, safety records. 12 (b) Frequent attendance at safety meetings. 13 (c) Acknowledgement of good or bad departmental safety 14 records through personal interviews with department heads. 15 (d) . General letters, for bulletin board posting, 16 addressed to employees and discussions of good or poor yard 17 accident record. 18 (e) By setting a good example. (Goggles, safety shoes, 19 hard hats and other necessary protective equipment should be 20 used by any executive who exposes himself to yard operations.) 21 Now, may I have any comments on that section, please? ' 22 Do not hesitate, please, to get up. If you think it should 23 contain more or should contain less, please let me know. 24 MR. DAVE KAYE, (Kaiser Company, Incorporated, Richmond 25 Shipyard No. 3, Richmond, California): Under Section 1.3, it m 1 Bays, "In all cases the use of the words *shall* or 'must* 2 Indicates that that compliance with that section of the mini 3 mum requirements is mandatory." Why wouldn't it be a good 4 example tinder 2.26, Section A, Instead of saying "necessary 5 protective equipment should be used", say "protective equip 6 ment shall be used"? 7 CHAIRMAN ROCHE; You are absolutely right. That word 8 "should" should be changed to the word "shall" 9 Are there any other corrections? 10 HR. HAL FRAZIER, (Houston Shipbuilding Corporation, 11 Houston, Texas): Under 2.26-B, why couldn't there be in 12 stead of "frequent attendance at safety meetings" be changed 13 to read, "That management shall be required to attend"? 14 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: I agree with you on that, but we have 15 got to remember one thing. We are building ships, and we 16 have yards full of busy executives. That does not mean that 17 they are excused entirely from attending safety meetings, 18 but on the other hand, it is not necessary for them to attend 19 every safety meeting to demonstrate an active Interest. 20 I stumble a little over the frequency. I would like 21 to say "regular" rather than "frequent". 22 HR. FRAZIER: Well, let us put "regular" in there in 23 place of "frequent". 24 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Is that satisfactory? Arethere any 25 comments on the use of the word "regular" in place of the u; 1 word "frequent"? Under 2*26-b? 2 I know, for example, that you could not get Henry Kaiser 3 to attend many safety meetings, although he does attend them 4 when he is around. 5 MR. H. R. GREENLEE, (Houston Shipbuilding Corporation) 6 In regard to 2.26-e, I wonder If you really mean that Henry 7 Kaiser every time he walks down in the yard, has to shift 8 into safety shoes. 9 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: You are damned right I do. Anybody 10 here think that Henry Kaiser should not do that? 11 MR. GEORGE F. SCEMOHL, (Alabama Drydock and Shipbuilding 12 Company, Mobile, Alabama): In Section E, then is it under 13 stood that every person working in the yard should wear 14 safety 6hoes, et cetera? 15 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Yes, and if it is a case where they 16 would be exposed to head injuries, they should be protected. 17 For example, if a person is working where they are not 18 exposed to head injuries, he does not have to wear a hard 19 hat, but if that person is from time to time in a hazardous 20 area, a hard hat should be used. 21 And by the way, that includes insurance engineers, 22 Maritime consultants, and anybody else who comes in there. 23 I nearly got my brains knocked out in one shipyard, because 24 there were no hard hats. 25 Are there any other questions or comments? If not, we 15S 1 will move on to the next Item, Section 3, Safety Director 2 and Staff. S 3.1 A safety director, (title may be safety engineer, 4 safety inspector,) et cetera, and staff shall be appointed 5 for all shipyards having 1,500 employees or more. (See 6 section 3.25 for duties and responsibilities.) The safety 7 director shall report to, and be responsible to the general 8 manager. 9 MR. R. R. CLARK, (Pennsylvania Shipyards, Beaumont, 10 Texas); I question as to whether or not the staff function 11 should be under general manager. I think a better word would 12 be "top management". In our yards specifically, I do not 13 know how it is with the rest of the yards, but the general 14 manager is principally interested in production. As a matter 15 cf fact, he is head of the production department, and as 16 such, I am wondering as to whether or not safety would 17 receive from the general manager in his capacity as produc 18 tion chief, the interest it deserves. 19 I think safety should be a staff function, and any 20 recommendations of the safety department should come through 21 top management, through the line of authority to the general 22 manager, if he is the production chief. 23 * CHAIRMAN ROCHE: That is a very good point. 24 MR. BARON D. SNIDER, (Marine Ship Corporation, San Anlitc 25 California); I beg to differ with the remark that has Just 159 1 been made. I believe one of the difficulties that safety 2 has Its proper place in production, and especially eince the S outbreak of the war. I am not citing my own company as being 4 the acme of a safety* program, how it should be run, et cetera, 5 but we have found by setting the safety department up as a 6 division of the production department, that safety has be 7 come inseparably wrapped up with production, and by having 8 the safety department report directly to the production g department, you have full compliance and responsibility. 10 CHAIRMAN ROCHEj That is the other side of it. I think il what the argument is here the definition of your term "top 12 management", and the fact that "general manager" in one 13 plant may not fulfill the functions of a general manager in 14 your plant. What we need then is a definition of vdiat we 15 mean by "top management", or by "general manager". Will you 16 agree with that? 17 MR, CLARK: I believe it specifically mentioned, or 18 that he specifically requested it be connected with produc 19 tion, and he doubted whether the safety division setup under 20 production would be as essential as it would outside of pro 21 duction. I believe it is more effective outside of the pro 22 duction department. 23 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: What is your suggestion for the change? 24 Will you suggest a change? 25 MR. CLARK: I do not have any specific change to make on 160 1 it* other than my oxlginal suggestion, which was "top manage 2 ment", It was brought out this morning without the coopera 3 tion of top management, we are not going to do anything with 4 the safety program, and to be absolutely frank, in think in 5 order to properly institute a safety program, we are going to 6 have to have the brass hats in on the thing. 7 In other words, it is going to have to come from the B top of the heap, and I also seriously question whether or 9 not the question came up about the removal of a hazard, that 10 would probably slow up production a little bit, which way 11 the production chief would lean. His interest is principally 12 in production, and I am thoroughly convinced that our praise 13 there should be "top management". I believe if we use the 14 term "top management" that that would be sufficiently in 15 clusive, 16 MR, SNIDER: I think that would still leave it up to 17 us to be interpreted, 18 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: You meal by the top management, the highe 19 management? . 20 MR. CLARE: Yes, 21 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: All right, let us say in the Kaiser 22 Shipbuilding'Company that Mr. Kaiser looks upon safety in 23 hie yard as hie responsibility as much as anybody else'8, and 24 he holds all of the general managers in his yard equally 25 161 1 responsible, not only for production, but for safety, too, 2 I agree with you that there should be some definition, S perhaps, and if you would be willing to offer one, we would 4 be delighted to have it. No one has ever done that, that I 5 know of, 6 MR, GREENLEE: Why use the wording, then? 7 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: All rigit, then you give us a better 8 one We are trying to make it as good as possible* 9 MR, S. T. SMITH, (Consolidated Steel Corporation, Los 10 Angeles, California): I heartily concur with the first 11 gentleman. In our particular plant, we are dealing with the 12 treasurer and assistant president of the company, and it ie 13 a healthy situation to know that you are with the top manage 14 ment more so than with your production management, and I would 15 say, "top management11 instead of "production" 16 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Would you agree with the term "hlgheet 17 operating executive"? That brings it down in some cases to 18 a superintendent, 19 MR, SNIDER: Aren't the companies under the Maritime 20 Commission required to have hat is known as an executive 21 committee on safety? 22 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Yes. 23 1!R, SNIDER; Well,.why wouldn't they report directly .to 24 the body that is supposed to be responsible for that? 25 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Because the executive committee is not 162 1 operative* We want an individual thing. We want it brought 2 under the eyes of the man who is responsible for the profit 3 and loss in the company* Perhaps I should have said the man 4 or the men* * 5 MR* GRAHAM (Delta Shipbuilding Company, New Orleans, 6 Louisiana): I would suggest that the top management be 7 comprised of representatives from the general superintendent, B or whoever has control, or holds the title in charge of pro 9 duction, and executive vice-president, or president of the 10 company, as top management, and the safety engineer* All 11 three are interested in production, economy and safety, I 12 think that could comprise the top management, very satisfact 13 orily, rather than an individual, rtio is interested in a 14 particular department* 15 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: You got a good point, with one excep 16 tion, the safety engineers are employees of the shipbuilding 17 company, rather than of the Maritime Commission, 18 MR* GRAHAM: They are charged by Washington with the 19 responsibility for safety in the yard, in which they operate, 20 aren't they?. 21 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Yes, the resident plant engineer* 22 MR* GRAHAM: Yes, the resident plant engineers are 23 charged for the safety in the yards* 24 MR. GREENLEE; He is an ex-officio member of the execu 25 tive safety committee by Maritime Commission order* 16? 1 MR GEORGE F* SCHMOHLj Speaking of resident plant 2 engineers, I take it that you mean Maritime engineers? Ttoat S about the Navy? 4 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: In the Navy, the same thing would hold 5 true, I do not know, frankly, exactly on that, but I can in 6 quire. Do we have a resident engineer in the Navy Yard? 7 COMMANDER CARLSON: Each engineer in the Navy Yard, 8 operates directly under the management. 9 MR. CLARK: On this top management thing, the gentleman 10 back here from the Delta Shipbuilding Company, New Orleans, 11 spoke about a certain procedure that should be followed. 12 That is the line of authority from top management. My con 13 ception of top management includes all of the corporate 14 officers, and those staff officers performing the function 15 of management, and how this safety department gets up to the 16 top management should be left to the individual shipyard, 17 to whatever operating practice would be most suitable for 18 that particular yard. . 19 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Now, because we are pressed for time, 20 I know it is getting late, and this is your set of standards, 21 and so we can get a definition that will be satisfactory to 22 the group on this, we will appoint a committee to go into 23 that matter. I am going to appoint Mr. Clark, Mr. Snider, 24 and the gentleman from Houston to formulate a definition that 25 will fit under paragraph 3.1, and report on that at this 10 1 meeting tomorrow morning* Mr* Clark will be chairman of 2 that committee* S MR* DESJARDINES, (Navy Department, Washington, D. C.): 4 Why not use the hlgjhest ranking executive? . 5 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: I will ask the committee to take that 6 under advisement* I will drop that matter now, and continue 7 with the balance of the material. 8 By the way, I meant to put on that committee Mr. Graham 9 instead of the gentleman from Houston, and I am going to add 10 Dave Kaye* 11 3.2 The staff in the safety department in addition to 12 the safety director, shall consist of: 13 3.21 An assistant safety director in yards having 5,000 14 employees or morew 15 3*22 One safety engineer (safety Inspector) for each 16 additional 3,000 employees* 17 Example: If a yard has 35,000 employees there would be 18 required a safety director and an assistant plus 10 safety 19 inspectors* 20 3*23 The staff of engineers shall be distributed over 21 the three shifts in proportion to the number of employees on 22 each shift* ~ 23 3.24 One clerk and/or stenographer for the first 5,000 24 employees and one clerk for each additional 7,500 employees. 25 (It is not to be assumed that the time of safety inspectors 1 or the safety directors can be spent on clinical detail.) " 2 All office functions, while adequately supervised by the 3 safety director, should be carried on by clerks so the great 4 est possible amount of time of the safety director and his 5 staff nay be spent in the shipyard. 6 MR. GRAHAM: I think it is entirely inadequate. The 7 National Safety Council offers the broadest experience of 8 any organization which we know, and they have the only real 9 experience to offer, and they never suggest that there be as 10 many as one man trying to handle 3,000. It is a Job almost 11 impossible* We are doing a war Job with production as the 12 paramount issue, and the management is not going to be able 13 to give us the time necessary to follow through with the 14 educational work we need. Therefore, I think that we should 15 be suggesting one man to a thousand as a minimum. 16 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: I would like.to hear some more discus 17 sion on that. 18 MR. H. E. PACKARD: (Los Angeles Shipbuilding and Dry- 19 dock Corporation) Something like that would create a 20 terrific effect upon us, and would work a considerable hard 21 ship on a lot of us. For example, if we have 8,000 men, that 22 will only give us two men. We will say we have 8,000 men 23 divided up Into three shifts, and bo how can you put two men 24 in three shifts? 25 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: The answer is "at least*. You have got 163 1 to be logical about it. If you have got three shifts, you 2 need three men* 3 MR PACKARD: I do not think we should have anything 4 like .that, becauee In most of them they have been staffed 6 for some time* I know that I have more men than that, and 6 some of these economical heads of departments are apt to get 7 the Idea that we have got too many, and are going to get 8 ambitious, and ask us to cut down our staff* I had to fight 9 very hard to get my men to the present level, and I would not 10 want to lose them at this time* 11 CHAIRMAN ROCHE; TThat Is your recommendation? 12 MR. PACKARD: I think that it should be one man to 2500, 13 or one man to 1500. 14 CHAIRMAN ROCHE; These figures are the consensus of the 15 group meeting we had here in Chicago, and they are their 16 figures. 17 MR. SAM T. SMITH, (Consolidated Steel Corporation, Los 18 Angeles, California): Again, that imposes a penalty on us 19 who have a functioning organization that has maybe one man 20 to a thousand, and I would say, "At least one safety engineer 21 to 1,000 men*- 22 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Please understand that this is a mini 23 mum. I emphasized that several times, that these are mini 24 mum standards, and one thing we have all got to realize is 25 this: That it is all right to want 25 or 30 safety engineers, 167 1 and it is all ri^it to try to get them, hut it is a very 2 difficult Job to actually get them. They do not grow these 3 days. 4 MR. GRAHAM: I simply maintain that the minimum require 6 ment is not adequate to function properly. I think that your 6 minimum is too high. . 7 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: I agree with you. 8 MR. GRAHAM: I think it is too hlgi, because it is 9 impossible to operate with the number that you state here. 10 MR. R. J. BEHLEY: (Travelers Insurance Company) The 11 Service and Supply Department of the Government is request 12 ing one to 1500. That might help in standardizing this idea 13 of Government control. - 14 HR. CARTER KENDALL (Bethelhem Steel Company, Bethlehem, 15 Pennsylvania): The one thing you overlook is the length of 16 time a yard has been operating. Most of our yards have been 17 operating for quite a few years, and production people are 18 pretty well trained. We do not need as many as one to a 19 thousand in some places. If you make that a minimum, then 20 you work a hardship on us. 21 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: In spite of the fact your yard.may be 22 operating a long bile, the question of Increase of employ 23 ment, and bringing in new unexperienced workers, 16 something 24 to consider, and also the losing of your regular production 25 personnel. That all has to be considered, and so there is 1G8 1 something in this business of increasing perhaps safety 2 supervision. Would you still hold that view with that in 3 mind? , 4 MR* KENDALL: Yes, I think so, * 5 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: What would be your suggestion? 6 MR, KENDALL: I would eay about 1500, 7 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: One to 1500, That seems to be the con B sensus of the group, 9 MR, WALTER J, CONLON, (St, Johnr8 River Shipbuilding 10 Company, Jacksonville, Florida): The thing that puzzles me 11 is the clarification of the purpose of this booklet. It seems 12 that there is a difference of opinion as to the purpose of 13 this book. Is this to be a set of standards that we adopt, 14 or is this merely to be a guide to possibly refer to at 15 intervals, or is management going to adopt this? 16 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: This is a set of standards to be adopted 17 as a minimum, 18 MR. CONLON: Ey the safety department? 19 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: By each shipyard, by management, and 20 the safety department as a minimum requirement, and it out 21 lines only minimum requirements. 22 MR. PACKARD: I think that the 5,000 is a little higi. 23 It would probably help a lot of us, if that was brought down 24 to around 3,000, to begin with. 25 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: I was wondering why nobody thought of 169 1 that. z HR. PACKARD: If you were going to put In a starting 3 figure of 5,000 men, you can use two shifts, and If you have 4 a safety director and one assistant, that will he tough. I 5 think we should cut that down to at least 3,000, and If not 6 3,000, to possibly 2500. I am more Inclined to 2500* 7 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Well, would you say this: Change that 8 figure to 3,000, and then under paragraph 3.21, have it read 9 this way: 10 "An assistant safety director In yards having 3,000 11 employees or more, except that there shall always be at 12 least one safety engineer per shift." Is that all right? 13 MR. PACKARD: Yesi 14 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Is that satisfactory that we adopt the 15 figure of 3,000 for the initial, and 1500 for the final? 16 MR. SINNOTT: Are we talking now about shipbuilding, or 17 what? If you change that to safety engineer on each shift, 18 you might have alittle difficulty with a small Job of only 19 ten or fifteen men. 20 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Well, you have got to be logical and 21 reasonable about thl6 whole thing* 22 MR. SINNOTT: You might have thirty or forty ships in 23 the yard, and you might have none of them in the actual 24 building of a ship. 25 MR. GRAHAM: The theory of a good safety program is that . 170 I 1 the foremen and the leadermen take an active part. Under the 2 production conditions which we are operating today, the fore 3 man does not play that part, and for one man to have to do 4 the selling Job and the educational work for fifteen hundred, 5 I repeat that that is almost an impossibility* 6 CHAIRMAN ROCHE; I agree with you that under the present 7 setup, and the present operating methods in some of the yards, 6 but where a determined effort has been made to secure the 9 cooperation of foremen, and where recommendations such as are 10 submitted here, and such as Jack Wolff has talked about are 11 made, and carried out, we do get the cooperation of foremen 12 very definitely, and there are several such yards that are 13 only getting that. 14 MR. GRAHAM: I think if this would be a mandatory 15 standard by which we are to operate, it would get a better 16 chance of success. 17 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: It might almost be considered that. 18 Now, that has been changed from the 3,000 in the initial, 19 to 1500 for the additional employees, and I will change that 20 example later on. 21 Now, how about 3.24? One of the troubles we frequently 22 find in yards is that the safety engineer does all of his 23 own clerical work. In fact, some of them stay there nigbts 24 to do it. Is that satisfactory? If so, we will continue. 25 MR. T. J. WHELAN, (Travelers Insurance Company, Hart- 171 1 ford, Connecticut): In paragraph 3*1, I would suggest that r 2 you put a provision in there that this applies to yards hav 3 ing 1500 employees or more. There are many yards throughout 4 the country on small ship construction that do not quite reach 5 that figure. Why should not these provisions apply to the 6 smaller yards under 1500? 7 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: You tell me. Does anybody agree with 8 that, that yardshaving less than 1500 employees need a safety 9 engineer, or can the personnel director take care of that? 10 (Cries of, "No".) 11 What is the low figure? 12 MR. GRAHAM: Five hundred. 13 MR. DESJARDINES: I think that is rather low. 14 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: I think so, too. 15 MR. KENDALL: I do not know how you can get any figure 16 on a thing like that at all. Back in the days before Pearl 17 Harbor, and before the war, we had a number of repair yards 18 that did not have a thousand employees. Some days it would 19 operate two hundred, and then a ship would come in, and we 20 would Jump from two hundred to twelve hundred over-night. 21 We have a safety engineer in every yard. 22 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: I agree with you. 23 MR. KENDALL: I do not think you can set any figure on 24 it. 25 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Well, shall we say then that the safety 17,? 1 director and staff shall toe appointed for all shipyards? Is 2 that agreed* regardless of the number of employees? 3 MR. JOHNSON, (Kaiser Company, Portland, Oregon): I would 4 like to see in that same paragraph some provision for a wage 5 scale for inspectors, or whatever you call them. I mean 6 literally that# I have heard so many times from people all 7 over the country that they cannot get, or they cannot keep 8 competent inspectors, toecause they are not allowed to pay then 9 an adequate wage# They are paying them a helpless wage, and 10 they expect them to contact foremen and supervisors and I do 11 not think that that is right. I think it should be in there 12 that an inspector gets not less than a Journeyman's wage. 13 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: *1 will show you some of the scars where 14 the stitches have not been pulled out yet, toecause I brought 15 that matter up. That is a matter for the labor relations 16 division, as such, and not the safety division, and it is 17 toeing taken care of# 18 MR. JOHNSON: Well, the stabilization board said, why 19 not put it in there, and then they will have something to 20 back them up? 21 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: I am afraid that we cannot get away 22 with that, but it is being taken care of, and you can count 23 on that. I know that where you get a good man who makes a 24 good inspector, and you pay him $40 a week, maybe, and the 25 fir st thing you know he is out welding, and making more money, ' 173 1 and getting In overtime, and lots of fellows have been lost 2 that way, and some of these fellows are making less than $40 3 a week 4 So, there is some need for stabilization there, and 6 treating these men and these inspectors should be treated 6 in a different manner, and I agree with you, but I do not 7 think it is part of the safety standards to set the wage 8 scale, because we would have zone agreements, and everything 9 else to take care of, and you know ihat that is. 10 MR J, IL HAYDON, (Moore Drydock Company, Oakland, 11 California) : On 31, safety director, about the number of 12 employees, et cetera, I think there should be something in 13 there to cover liat I have In mind. I happen to know of one 14 yard where the safety director was the fire chief, the first15 aid man, and captain of the guards In this particular case, 16 I know he was all three, and I think his duty should be safety 17 director, and nothing else. 18 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: You will find that clearly outlined 19 under 3.25 20 MR, SCHMOHL: I think an inspector should have some 21 electrical and other experience before he is trained as an 22 inspector. In most cases, we have to train our inspectors, 23 and I believe that you cannot get an average man in that 24 category, who does not run around $1,20 an hour, and I think 25 if you put in there that the requirements for the inspector in 1 Is to be bo and so, that we will be able to control the wage 2 scale In that way without setting It. S CHAIRMAN ROCHE: You have got a very good point there* 4 We have considered that but In the Interest of keeping this 5 thing from getting too bulky, It was left out. The consultant 6 will assist In discovering these men In each case, and train 7 ing the men whom you are going to use as Inspectors in the 8 yard, and give you a hand in that way. That Is going to be 9 done somewhere along the line In the training program, but 10 it is going to be done specifically for shipyards* 11 MR* SNIDER: In regard to 3*1, you say a safety director, 12 et cetera, and shall be appointed for all shipyards having 13 1500 employees or more* See Section 3*25 for duties and 14 responsibilities. "The safety director shall report to and 15 be responsible to the general manager." 16 Suppose the function of the safety organization were a 17 safety director from the parent company, will that change 18 the status of that any? 19 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Yes, you report to the general manager 20 of his yard, and to him. In other worde, anything that is 21 better than what we have here, we are not kicking about, but 22 it must be at least this. 23 MR. SNIDER: Then I would like to submit that you add 24 the words "and to"* 25 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: All right, we will put that in there, 175 1 and I will catch that in the minutes. 2 Now, we will continue with 3.25, duties and respon S sibilities. 4 3.25 Duties and responsibilities. The duties and 6 responsibilities of the safety director shall include; 6 (a) Complete responsibility for formulating, administer 7 ing and making necessary changes in the shipyard accident 8 prevention program within the limits of authority granted by 9 the shipyard management. The safety director shall also be 10 required to correlate the shipyard accident prevention progran 11 with the minimum standards of the U. S. Maritime Commission. 12 Any objection to that? 13 (No response.) 14 (b) Submisdon of regular monthly, weekly or daily 15 reports on the status of safety directly to the general 16 manager of the shipyard. 17 May I say right there, that that "general manager" term 18 will be put in agreement with whatever our committee decides 19 for that term. 20 (c) Acting in an advisory capacity on all natters per 21 taining to safety and health (see paragraph "F" following) to 22 the management, general manager, superintendents, foremen, 23 quartermen, leadermen, purchasing department, engineering 24 department, commissary department, or contractor. 25 MR. JOHNSON; I question the help proposition. lYt' 25hs I 1 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Most of the yards do not have hygienics, 2 and somebody has to take care of that. S MR. JOHNSON: They asked us what medical school we 4 graduated from In our yard. 5 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: What we want Is that they will esk for 6 your assistance. For example, I have run into the same condi 7 tion In other yards, and have found that the medical depart 8 ment never makes trips through the yard, and they do not know 9 what the term Is that Is used In the yard, and they do not 10 know whether It Is toxic or not. Well, the safety engineers 11 can bring that to their attention, and get some action in 12 that way. 13 The safety engineer may not dodge the responsibility 14 for his post in the health and hygiene program In the yard. 15 That is definitely a part of his job. 16 (d) Maintenance of the accident record system, making 17 all necessary reports, personal investigation of all fatal 18 or serious accidents, investigation through his staff of all 19 accidents, securing supervisors accident reports, checking 20 corrective action taken by supervisors to eliminate accident 21 causes. 22 And you can interpolate there "through his staff wherever 23 possible." We know that the safety engineers have only 24 24 hour8 a day, Just like anybody else. 25 (e) Supervising, or closely cooperating with the train- 177 1 lng supervisor, the safety training of all employees. (See 2 Section 3.26) s (f) Correlating safety work with medical (first aid) 4 department to insure proper selection and placement of em 5 ployees according to physique, experience and intelligence 6 and for the purpose of securing or giving information that 7 will tend to control existing or potential accident causes. 8 I know one yard where the safety engineer does all of 9 the hiring and he does first aid work, too. The last thing 0 10 he did was to take the general manager to the opera the night 11 he had to work. I am telling you we are outlining your 12 dutiee specifically, and anything extra gets extra compensa 13 tion. 14 (g) Making personal Inspections and supervising 15 inspections by staff and by special employee committees, 16 for the purpose of discovering and correcting unsafe condi 17 tions or unsafe work practices before they cause accidents. 18 (h) Exchanging information with other shipyards on best 19 safety methods and consulting with U. S. Maritime Commission 20 on safety problems which cannot be solved with methods or 21 information at hand. 22 (i) Making certain that all federal, state or local 23 laws, ordinances or orders bearing on industrial safety are 24 conplied with. 25 (J) Securing any necessary help or advice from state 178 1 department of labor representatives on matters pertaining 2 to safety* 3 And we better put In there "and health. 4 MR. E. E. WHITE (Sun Shipbuilding Company, Chester, 6 Pennsylvania): In paragraph (h), consulting with the U* S. 6 Maritime Commission on safety problems which cannot be 7 solved with methods or information at hand", don*t you think 8 that a staff safety director goes beyond the bounds if he 9 consults with the Maritime Commission if the: matter should 10 have been taken up with his own management, instead of the 11 Maritime Commission? 12 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: .What I should have explained is that you 13 will have a regional safety consultant in this area for that 14 purpose. 15 MR. WHITE: Not with the plant engineer, or any Maritime 16 Commission? 17 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: No, with the regional safety representa 18 tive, that means. Would you rather have it put in there that 19 way? 20 (Cries of, Yes.) 21 All right, it will be consulting with the U. S. Maritime 22 Commission, regional safety consultant.* We will change it 23 that way. 24 Now, on (i) does anyone object to the words safety and 25 health", because you may have occasion to contact your health 1 department. 179 ' . 2 MR. JOHNSON: It says under (f) you say, "proper selec S tion and placement of employees according to physique, 4 experience, and intelligence, and for the purpose of securing 5 or giving information that will tend to control existing or 6 potential accident causes. Prom a labor standpoint, I would 7 like to add there, "except in instances where a local union 8 supplies the man." 9 CHAIRMAN ROCHE; That is going to he taken care of, we 10 hope. There is a conference going on now with the A. F. of L., 11 and the C. I* 0., and other unions, if there he any, and the 12 management representatives, which tend to smooth out that 13 point, and I think we will have a lot less trouble with that 14 for which every one of us is thankful* 15 Then, if there is no objection, we will add the word 16 "health" in paragraph (J). 17 (k) Initiating activities that will stimulate and 18 maintain the interest of employees in safdty. 19 (l) Acting as secretary of all safety committees and 20 in such capacity he shall prepare an agenda for each such 21 meeting covering the business to be discussed and, he shall 22 prepare for the record, minutes of each such meeting* 23 MR. SNIDER: That is impractical in many shipyards, 24 according to your committee setup, and according to the 25 number of hours in a day. 180 1 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: That is the safety director, and you 2 Interpolate there "through his staff," Obviously, you could 3 not be there 24 hours a day. You can put In "and/or" If 4 you want, but any of these activities, the eafety director 5 as such, is the administrator, and he makes it click. I do 6 not care if he ever goes to a safety meeting, if he gets a 7 good safety record in his yard, but he will go to them, I 8 know, or he will not get that. 9 MR. PACKARD: I know my particular yard has used this 10 original program that came through with the inspection, more 11 or less as a Bible, and we are going to have to be careful 12 there in our wording, because inasmuch as most people know 13 nothing about safety, and they have steered around it as 14 much as possible, now they have come face to face with it, 15 and they have to do something about it, and they are very 16 apt to go by the line. 17 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Well, let us go on with our next para 18 graph. ' 19 (m) Directing the activities of his staff including 20 the assistant safety director, so that the shipyard accident 21 orevention program will be efficiently operated. It is 22 expected that the safety director may delegate certain 23 responsibilities to his staff engineers, such as that of 24 acting as secretary of certain of the safety committees. 25 Permission for such delegation of authority is expressly 181 1 given In the Interest of efficiency and for training the 2 safety staff* 3 (n) Submission of the required reports on the status 4 of safety in the shipyard to the U. S. Maritime Commission & at the time and intervals hereinafter requested. 6 3*25 The duties of the assistant safety director, the 7 staff engineers and clerks, shall be as delegated by the safety B director. 9 In other words, he is boss of the safety department. 10 Now, we will come to No. 4, accident prevention forms 11 and reports. 12 MR. BEHLEY: You made a point about full-time staff 13 directors for employees here in connection with this, and 14 so don't you think that that should be brought in there some 15 place? We may get a haphazard setup some place within the 16 law. 17 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Don't say law. This is not a law. If 18 we are going to say we should have a safety director in every 19 shipyard, and not say the number of employees, I do not think 20 we can say"a full-time safety director", because where you 21 have only two or three hundred, or five hundred men, and we 22 have a lot of yards like that, I do not think you can expect 23 to get a full-time safety director there. 24 ' MR. BEHLEY: How about adding it where we have 3,000 and 25 1,500? 182 1 CHAIRMAN EHZE: How do some of you men from the ship 2 yards feel about that? 3 MR. PACKARD I like it the way it is. 4 MR. GRAHAM: The safety director*s work is a full-time 5 Job in any manner, regardless of the size of the yard. 6 CHAIRMAN B0CH3: I agree with you, but they do not all 7 devote full-time to it. You take the several yards out here, 8 who are building small craft and have maybe 200 men, they 9 do not have a full-time safety engineer, and I would not 10 recommend a full-time safety engineer for a plant that size, 11 because they cannot support them. 12 MR. GRAHAM: I do not agree with you, because they can 13 support them if they have one death in ten years. 14 CHAIRMAN ROCHE; We have got to be practical about this. 15 To begin with, ts have not enough safety engineers to go 16 around right new, and we have the big Job of training them, 17 and those of you Tho have been trying to hire them will know 18 that. Let us kef? that point in mind, however, for tomorrow 19 on full-time, besause I can see where the point migit come 20 up. 21 The next for consideration is No. 4, accident 22 prevention force and reports. 23 4,1 The ssfety director shall cause to be designed 24 and put into use at least the following forms and records: 25 4 , 1 1 Superior's report of accident. 183 1 (&) Giving all vital data on case plus statements as 2 to unsafe act and/or unsafe condition, reason unsafe act or 3 condition was permitted to exist or occur and the Immediate 4 corrective action taken or recommended. (Sample attached.) 6 Let me say this: Most yards have such forms, and they 6 will not be changed if they are any good at all, but this 7 is a suggested form, and steady I have had several suggested 8 corrections for it, 9 MR, GRAHAM: What supervisors do you mean? 10 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: The immediate supervisors, What we 11 would call in the manufacturing industry a foremanrs report of 12 accident, but we do not do that in shipyards, because you knots 13 the difference in terminology. You donft dare say even 14 "leadlngman", because that means a different thing in differen 15 sections of the country, as I found out, to my sorrow. 16 Now, take a good look at that form, and if any of you 17 have anything on it, will you see me after a while, and we 18 will go at it again? 19 4.12 Safety Engineers1 recommendation form. I 20 (a) Form used by safety staff to record recommendations 21 made during inspection. Used for follow-up. Made in trip 22 licate; one to leaderman or quarterman on Job, one to general 23 manager, or other designated executive, one to safety depart 24 ment files after use to check performance. (Sample to be 25 included) 184 1 So many times these forms are Issued to a man on the 2 Job, and they are never collected. You will notice down at 3 the bottom of this form, the specifications provide approxi 4 mately three by five, and you can have them made up in pads. 5 A lot of yards have them, and this is about the consensus of 6 the forms that I saw, and if there is anything like that, 7 they will not be changed in your yard, but if you do not have B them, we will ask you to put them in. 9 4.13 U. S. Maritime Commission reports. 10 (a) To be submitted monthly to U. S. Navy - Maritime 11 Commission. To include over-all breakdown of predominant 12 accidents, types and causes, accident frequency and severity 13 rates. Total number fatal cases, total of lost time cases 14 and the time lost, total all caees including first aid and 15 number retreatments. Also to be shown are cumulative 16 frequency and severity rates January 1 to date and changes 17 in frequency and severity rates from preceding month. A 18 brief statement of what is being done to control each of the 19 predominant accident cauees. This form to be used also for 20 report to management of shipyard. . To be submitted in trip 21 licate so as to reach U. 5. Navy-Maritime Commission not 22 later than 15th of month following month record covers. 23 (Sample attached.) 24 We have got a new form for the U. S. Maritime Commission. 25 It is a combination form to do a double Job, with a copy to 185 34thhse 1 go to the labor statistics, and a copy to the Maritime Commis- j 4 ' 2 sion, and a copy for your own use* You will notice on the S reverse side of the form which I will cover first, because 4 that is my part of it, we have departed from the scientific 5 approach, so I have been told, for the prevention of acci 6 dents. is 7 In other words, what is desired/that we want to know the 8 cause of the accident, and That is wrong. We did originally 9 want to include a definite statement for each group of such 10 items as to That you were doing to improve the conditions, but 11 it would make it too bulky, and we were trying to simplify 12 it. 1! 13 . * When we have finished with this, it will be on an eight 14 by eleven sheet. That will enable you to tell us after you 15 have filled out the form, what are the predominant hazards, so ' 16 that you will not use the scattershot method of engineering, 17 but the direct approach method. You will be able to tell what 18 is wrong, and hat is causing the most trouble, and therefore 19 intensify your work on the greatest hazard. 20 Now, on the reverse side, I am going to take a rest for 21 a minute, and I am going to ask Max Kassoris to get up and 22 talk about that briefly. 23 MR. MAX KOSSORIS: This form is a substitute for the 24 Maritime Commission form that you have been filling out, and 25 this is pretty much of a summary type. We need to know, of 18S 1 course, the Identification, the name of the company, and the 2 location of the yard, the average number of employees, et S cetera. Now, some of you are going to ash me That do you 4 mean by "average number of employees", as of what time. We 5 did not put that on the form, I do not believe, but Item No. 6 4 give8 us the total employee hours worked, and Item No. 3 7 gives us the average number of employees, on the payroll dur 8 ing the 15th of the month. 9 N6w, there are all kinds of ways of getting the average 10 of that type, but that is the simplest and the most useful. 11 Have any of you any suggestions for making it any simpler 12 than that? 13 Now, you are going to have women, so it is employees, 14 instead of man-hours. That is a question of adding up the 15 total number of hours of the work your employees work, and 16 you can get that from your payroll, or estimate it very 17 closely. ' 18 You will also notice, we are listing fatalities, perman 19 ent impairments, temporary total, and then total, and under 20 the total is "non-disabling injuries." Now,.reading across 21 the column, in the first two columns is the number, and in 22 the last two' columns are days lost. Under the number, you 23 split that up into thoee that occurred during the month, and 24 those of greater severity than formerly reported. Those that 25 occurred during the month, and any of those that occurred and 1 were reported during the earlier month, and subsequently turned out to be more severe In terms of disability mho are 2 listed, there Is a temporary total, and a permanent Impair 3 4 ment under Items 7 and 6, respectively. MR. GRAHAM: How can you determine that? lou cannot 5 6 tell shat the severity Is until the accident Is concluded, 7 so how do you know which Is the greater? . 8 MR. KOSSORIS: you recorded for any earlier month. ' 9 MR. GRAHAM: Suppose you have a man who has been severel 10 injured through a fracture, and you expect him to be Injured 11 for a year, and another one with the same Injury, and you do 12 not know which is the greatest severity. 13 MR. KOSSORIS: You do not estimate that. If a man has 14 a fractured arm, so far as you know, all you know that It 15 19 a temporary disability. If he has lost his arm, then you 16 know It is a permanent Impairment. However, If, say, three 17 months later the fracture develops and he Is further impaired.] 18 then you Just report that under item 6-(b), and that Indicate 19 that an earlier Injury has no. turned out to be a more severe 20 injury. 21 All we are trying to get Is a count of the fatalities that are permanent and temporary. If you wish to put this on an * 1 basis, and let these ride, that Is all right, 24 but on a monthly basis, you have to use a make-shift arrange 25 ment, in order to catch up. 188 1 Under the "Days Lost" there is e. column for Injuries 2 during the month, and that is simply the time that you have S lost for injuries that occurred during that particular month, 4 and if people are injured in earlier months, and are still 5 out in the month reported here, you can cover that absence 6 under column "D". 7 Now, we have to break this up in this way, because on 8 a monthly reporting basis, you cannot accurately accumulate 9 anything, because you have to give it recognition as it comes 10 up, and so by breaking it in this way, you should have no 11 difficulty ihatsoever. 12 Under the non-disabling injuries, we are Just asking for 13 the number that occurred during the month* 14 The frequency rate is shown as Item No* 10, and that 15 is explained there immediately following that heading. It 16 is a very simple operation, and you put it directly on the 17 form to save the trouble of having to look for it in any 18 other place. 19 i We are not asking for the severities for the very simple 20 reason you cannot develop a eeverity rate on the monthly basis, 21 not knowing that your time losses are going to be. A man gets 22 hurt in April, and does not get back to work until July, and 23 you cannot tell me in April tfiat the severity rate is, be 24 cause you would not know the total time. 25 ME. KAYE: However, the doctor*8 estimate will give you 189 1 a fair comparison, wouldn't it? That would give you something 2 to work on,and itoat you would lose on one case, you would pick S up on another case, so at the end of the year it would come 4 out approximately rigit. 5 MR* K0SS0RIS: There is no objection to keeping them, if 6 you want to, and I suppose many of you do, but so far as we 7 are concerned, all we are after is the frequency rate, and if 8 we know the distribution in terms of fatalities, permanent 9 impairments, temporary, et cetera, we have a pretty good 10 idea of rfo&t that story is. 11 MR. CONLON Do you mean the total employees now at 12 work? 13 MR# K0SS0RIS: You can take that information from your 14 payroll. 15 MR. CONLON: That is what I was going to ask you about 16 I believe that most of us keep our payroll by the week, and 17 it is very difficult to get it exactly, and we have been doing 18 it for the Maritime Commission on a four or a five week period. 19 MR. K0SS0RIS: Couldn't you break your week on the number 20 of days, if it is two days out of the week, or two-&lxths, 21 or one-third? 22 MR. CONLON: Well, it is very difficult to get them to 23 do that, because it requires a lot of work in the payroll 24 department to break it down that way. 25 MR KOSSORTS: Well, rtmt is your suggestion? What do 190 1 you have to offer on that? * 2 MR, GRAHAM: Don't they all sign a ddly labor report? S We take our records from the dally labor report. 4 MR* KOSSORIS: Then you have got dally reports, and 5 It Is very simple to add them up. 6 MR. GRAHAM: Well, we have to reconcile that, and I 7 think that is easily done. 8 MR. KOSSORIS: Do all of the rest of you have your 9 records on that basis? ' 10 MR* I. G* JONES, (Southeastern Shipbuilding Corporation, 11 Savannah, Georgia): It is absolutely impossible for us to 12 get it on anything other than a four or a five week basis. 13 It is like pulling teeth now to get it from the department 14 on that basis, and I would like to see it on either a four 15 or a five week basis. 16 MR. KOSSORIS: What you are going to do there is that 17 if you are going to mix the thing up, and have some of them 18 on a monthly basis, and some on a four or five week basis, 19 when we start compiling them, and comparing them with each 20 other, the experience will not be quite the same. It may not 21 make any difference, I do not know. 22 HR. JONES: On this injuries on fatalities, are we going 23 to use the 6,000? 24 MR. KOSSORIS: You make no charges whatsoever. 25 HR. JONES: Dom't you think that should be X*d out then? 1 I am referring to "c" on fatalities, 2 MR. KOSSORIS: Well, you mayhave days lost during the 3 month because of Injuries. 4 When it comes to permanent Impairments we can estimate 5 pretty closely what those losses amount to, but In terms of 6 actual time lost for work, that is another story. The time 7 charges do not take that Into account, and this will. . 8 Are there any other questions on the form? 9 MR. LESSIONS, (Great Lakes Engineer): Could we take 10 the consensus so far, whether these hours should be based 11 on a weekly basis, or a monthly basis, rather than certain 12 days? Most of us figure our man hours per week, and on a 13 four-week basis would be much easier figuring than breaking 14 them up in the middle. 15 MR. KOSSORISj What is your pleasure on that? 16 MR. GRAHAM: Isn't it a matter of record In regard to 17 the man-hour,e worked? I believe that information is available 18 to every department that wants it, isn't it? 19 MR. C0NL0N: We have 13 four-week periods throughout the 20 year. 21 MR. JOHNSON: (Kaiser Company, Portland, Oregon) I 22 think we are-exaggerating the importance of a few man hours 23 more or less. I do not see why they cannot take four full 24 weeks and take the two extra days, or whatever they are work 25 ing. What if they do miss 10,000 man hours, you will catch it 192 1 all up at the end of the year, anyway. I do not think it 2 makes very much difference. 3 MB. K0SS0RIS: It makes a much neater setup for compari 4 son to have it on a monthly basis than to have it at differ 6 ent times of the month, say, from the 5th to the 13th, or 6 whatever the time migit be. 7 Suppose we leave it on that basis, and ask you to 8 estimate for whatever period you have and a6k you to give 9 us the estimate so far as your man hours are concerned. 10 MR. WHITE: Couldn*t you extend that to the 16th of 11 the month, instead of the 10th of the month? 12 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: It is the 15th of the month. That is ` 13 an error.at the top of the page. 14 MR. SMITH: I have a question on this setup. Suppose 15 yards have private contractors coming on the yard doing 16 incidental Jobs, and there are Maritime and Navy inspectors 17 in the yard, but are they to be included in this setup, and 18 are they all to meet with these same requirements? 19 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: If it is a sub-contract, and they are 20 paid by the shipyard operators, then they must be compelled 21 to meet the requirements that are met by your people in the 22 yard. We had a case like that involving asbestos, because 23 eventually it is going to come back on your shoulders, and 24 somebody will have to pay the bill. 25 MR. E. S. WINFREE, (Pennsylvania Shipyards, Incorporated, 1 Beaumont, Texas): I think Mr. S m i t h s question was suppose 2 a ship came In for repaire, and supposedly belonging to Texas, 3 we as a shipyard repair that ship, and they are not actually 4 working on Maritime contracts, then how would you report that? 5 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Do we want reports where work is done 6 in a Maritime yard, but not on Maritime work on employees 7 involved in that work? For example, repairing a ship belong 8 ing to the Texas Company. I would say no, offhand. 9 MR. RING: I would say, "No" offhand, but the percentage 10 of that work is going to be so small and infinitesimal that 11 I do not think it will reflect any degree of change whether 12 we have it or do not have it. I thinkthat could be included 13 or not included, as you all decide here. 14 MR. WALLACE I. TERRY (Moore Drydock Company, Oakland, 15 California): It would help U9 a great deal, I know in our 16 particular case, if we could lump the whole thing all together 17 Now, take an example where a man is injured in our 18 machine shop, and he may be working on Navy work,maybe 19 Maritime, maybe repair, and it is pretty difficult to ascer 20 tain whether or not that was a Maritime Job he was working 21 on or not. The man does not know half the time himeelf. 22 MR. RING: I doubt if there would be, say, one out of 23 five hundred cases, taking the whole thing over-all, that 24 would be allocated to a private Job, and I do not see why 25 you cannot include all of it right in the single report, so 19 1 that you will have a uniform rule all the way through. 2 For example, a man who Is turning a lathe today for a 3 private Job, may for the next 29 days be working on Maritime 4 Commission or Navy work, and similarly with every other classi 5 fication. 6 So, I think in view of the fact it is so small,you might 7 as well lump it rigit in, and include it all in there. 8 MR. SMITH: My question then is in this regard: We have 9 quite a number of private contractors who come into our yard 10 who do insulating work, and doing maybe construction work 11 while we are still operating, and also the Navy and the 12 Maritime men, who are doing routine inspection work on the 13 Job. That is what I had in mind, 14 CHAIRMAN ROCHE; That is the way I understood your ques 15 tion, and he thought that I did not. Where you have a contrac 16 tor In the yard, he may not endanger your men, or he may en- 17 danger your men by his operations. 18 MR. SMITH; The question was this morale effect of these 19 particular employees of ours seeing these other fellows 20 allowed to .do as they please. 21 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: That is why when we discussed this 22 matter, we designate the responsibility to the engineer, so 23 that when contracts are let to outside contractors, you will 24 write into the contract the safety provisions that they are 25 expected to follow, and they will usually be the same that 44hs 1 Vo 1 you have In your yard, 2 HER* RING: That la the thought that I had on arising. 3 If you put an overfall blanket catch-all providon In your 4 contract, that a sub-contractorTa employees should be covered, 5 then It is understood and agreed that the sub-contractor's 6 employees will be bound by and will adhere to all of the 7 safety rules, regulations and requirements in effect in the 8 yard. Then, you have the whole thing taken care of, and your 9 legal department can work that out very quickly. 10 MR. SMITH: I have taken this up on numerous occasions 11 with our top management, and we cannot seem to reach an 12 agreement on that,`because we do have several sub-contractors 13 in the yard, and they have been allowed to do these things, 14 and it has worked a handicap, and it is one of our definite 15 problems. 16 CHAIRMAN RDCHE: If you will write me a letter, I will 17 be glad to give you that in the form of a recommendation. / 18 All right, among the other forms, you will see several 19 of them "there, and the only reason I list them at all is so 20 they would be included here. They are all very simple. 21 Now, various forms will be made available to shipyards 22 on request. 'Please write in if you do not have them, and we 23 will be glad to help you in the preparation of your own forms, 24 or give you some information on existing forms. 25 MR. KOSSORIS: Did I understand you to say the super- V V 1 visorfe report Is an optional form? 2 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: No, It Is not an optional form. That 3 form must be used In one way or another If you have a form 4 use It, and If you have not a form, use that one, and by the 5 time the regional consultant gets around, he will find whether 6 it is any good or not 7 MR* K0SS0RIS: Well, if we are to draw off statistics 8 from these forms,and we have 35 or 40 different forms being 9 used, that will be very difficult 10 CHAIRMAN ROCHEj Well, most of them are like that. 11 MR RING; Can they all conform to that? 12 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Most of them do conform to it. 13 MR. RING: Would it be much trouble to make the other 14 forms exactly like this? 15 MR. FRAZIER: I would like to submit our forms for your 16 consideration 17 MR* RING: Let us g down to brass tacks on this thing. 18 We are not going to be able to check this deal in any way at 19 all if we are going to be vacillating about the forms that 20 come in. Why donft you have a committee appointed, or some-v 21 body aopolnted to go out and bring in a standard form that 22 you will all-agree to, so that we won*t have any question 23 about it. We will say when we promulgate the standards that 24 this is the form to be used for the supervisor*s report, be 25 cause if you change it around in one little way or another, iff i 1 first of all It makes It difficult, eo far as analyses of 'S them are concerned, and secondly, it leads to difficulty, 3 so far as interpretations are concerned* 4 Now, we have the opportunity with everybody gathered 5 here today, to do something that I do not believe any other 6 industry with as broad a scope as this has ever had a chance 7 to do, namely, get down to bed rock, and say this goes for 8 all of us. If that is not good enough, and we do not want 9 to impose anything on you that you do not want, but if that 10 is not good enough, tell us what is good enough, and let us 11 understand that we will use that form, and that only. 12 I do not see any other way that we can get going on 13 this thing. We are here 'to standardize things, and you cannot 14 standardize them by letting a little slide off to the right, 15 and a little slide off to the left, because the first thing 16 you know, you are all out in the middle again. 17 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Let us have such a committee appointed 18 on that form, then. 19 HR. WHELAN; I take it, then, that this supervisors form 20 is not to go to the Commission? 21 CHAIRMAN ROCHE; Yes, it comes to the Maritime Commission, 22 definitely. - 23 Now, we will appoint a committee to make a study of that 24 form and report on it tomorrow morning. I am going to appoint 25 on that committee Carter Kendall, as chairman, Dave Lester, 1 and I, Gr. Jones, I am going to ask you fellows to get to 2 gether this evening and be prepared to report tomorrow. By 3 the way, I would also like to add to that oommittee Max 4 Kassoris. 5 (b) The following formula shall be used in determining 6 accident frequency and severity rates for shipyards. 7 1* Accident frequency - 8 Number Disabling Injuries X 1,000,000 total Man Hours Worked for Period 9 Covered 10 2 A disabling injury shall be considered to be 11 any injury which results in a man being unable to report for 12 work on the next regular day or shift after the accident, or 13 one which calls for a standard time charge being made regard 14 less of whether time is actually lost. If time is lost due 15 to the injury, subsequent to the initial return to work, then 16 the injury shall be accounted as disabling, 17 4*14 Minutes central safety committee* 18 4.15 Minutes supervisors safety committee. 19 4.16 Inspection committee forms. 20 a. Minutes of meetings should show date and time of 21 meeting, names of those present, action on unfinished business, 22 brief description of new business discussed and action taken 23 or ordered "by the committee on each item. The discussion 24 should always include the predominating accident hazards of 25 the yard and the means suggested to control them. I V!^ 1U W 1 b. Various inspection committee forms will be made 2 available to shipyards on request. 3 4.17 These forms, and any others pertaining to industri 4 safety or health shall be filed and made available to authori 5 zed representatives of the U. S. Navy-Maritime Commission 6 upon request. 7 MR. SNIDER: I would like to go back to that part refer 8 ring to a disabling injury ihlch results in a man being unable 9 to report for work on the next regular day or shift after the 10 accident, or one which calls for a standard time charge being 11 made, regardless of whether time is actually lost. What does 12 "unable to report for work" mean? Our insurance carriers 13 do not permit us to bring a man back to work if he has a 14 patch over his eye. 15 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: The answer is if he is there ready for 16 work, that it is not a disabling injury. 17 MR* SNIDER: Who is to decide that? 18 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: You in your yard. If the man is there, 19 it is up to your medical officer to decide that. We cannot 20 make any decisions of a medical nature, because we have to 21 leave that up to the doctor, and that is a condition that 22 has to be corrected locally, if you do not agree with me. 23 There is a definition on the form, paragraph 1, that is 24 a standard,and it is generally accepted as that definition. 25 It does not leave much leeway; if a man is there ready to do 1 work, he 16 not a lost case. 2 I suggest that we move on, as It Is getting rather late. 3 5. Safety committees. 4 5.1 The safety director, In cooperation with the ship 6 yard general manager, shall cause to he formed and put into 6 effective operation at least the following safety committees. 7 5.11 Central safety committee 8 a. Membership: management representative (chairman), 9 safety director, (secretary) superintendents, foremen, medi 10 cal department representative, quarteroen or leadermen, and 11 one employee. 12 Now on this safety committee, the safety director as 13 euch should be a secretary, and he should not delegate that 14 responsibility. 15 b. Membership of all but management representative 16 medical department representative and safety director shall 17 be (may be) rotated -- terms of 2 months each but rotation to 18 be arranged so only 1/2 of committee changes each month. 19 Now, there 1b considerable leeway there, and if you 20 want to keep him on for three months that is all right, but 21 do not make it a permanent committee. 22 c. Meetings - Shall be monthly or more often as 23 necessary. 24 In the case of most of these central committees they meet 25 now and again, and their average is about 12 or 15 times a 50hs t*yj u. 1 year, but not at regular Intervals, and It Is up to the 2 safety director to see that they have to meet at least once 3 a month, or 12 times a year 4 MR CONLONj This setup now countermands the old Maritime 5 Commission instructions in regard to an executive safety 6 committee, and a general safety committee? 7 MR. RING: Anything in conflict with this that has gone 8 on in the past, will be disregarded 9 CHAIRMAN ROCHE; Now, if you want to have the Maritime 10 man on there, you can, of course. These are minimums. If 11 you want the Maritime on there, put him on. 12 d. Duties - This is the policy forming committee fo 13 safety work. They review the monthly report as submitted to thj 14 U. S. Navy-Maritime Commission and other records to determine 15 the course of safety work for coming period. They decide suchj 16 matters as type of safety equipment to be used and how it 17 shall be made available to men, types of safety training to 18 be used, whether accident prevention plan is being adhered 19 to, inter-plant contest awards, etc. Some such committees 20 review the investigation on fatal or serious accidants, and 21 make recommendations. All committee members are expected to 22 make practical suggestions to improve shipyard safety. They 23 also review reports of other committees to make certain 24 suggestions and recommendations are properly followed. 25 through* 1 e. Secretary ~ The safety director shall act as 2 secretary, prepare an agenda, take minutes, prepare a report 3 of committee meeting and distribute copies of reports to 4 members. He shall follow through with other committees, 5 the suggestions and recommendations of the central safety 6 committee. 7 MR. WHITE: I do not believe I understand paragraph "a". B Does that mean one superintendent, one foreman, or does it 9 mean all of the foremen? 10 CHAIRMAN ROCHE; No, Just the representatives. 11 MR. WHITE: The representatives from each craft? 12 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: No, Just representatives. You could not 13 possibly get them from each craft. I think in one yard, we 14 would have 300 foremen in there, but representatives we would 15 say of two or three. We will leave that up to the individual 16 yard for their best decision on it. 17 MR, PACKARD: I wonder if we could get this over to the 18 Navy on this safety committee, or the safety engineers using 19 a particular type of safety equipment. I know the Navy, 20 generally speaking, is very good that way, and in certain yards 21 certain individuals who are reserve officers and ho know 22 nothing about, safety, dictate the terms of what type of equip 23 ment we are to purchase, and it makes it very embarrassing 24 and difficult. 25 203 1 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: That 1b true probably In some cases, 2 but you will find In your medical standards, that the types 3 of approved equipment are specified, and there will be little 4 or no leeway there* It will contain a decision practically 5 of what companies you will have to buy the equipment from. 6 MR* PACKARD: Can we get these reports that came down 7 from the Navy to the various yards? 8 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: It probably will, and the Navy, of 9 course, has its own plan on it. 10 Would you like to comment on that question? 11 COMMANDER CARLSON: I understand they are preparing a 12 list now, and that can be referred to as a Bible* However, 13 I think we can work that out all right if you will Just write 14 me in regard to your individual case. 15 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Thank you, Commander. It has been 16 suggested that we all now go down to see Dr* Drinker's demon 17 stration on welding and ventilation, and after he has fin 18 ished we shall remain there and finish our deliberations down 19 there, because we have got to be out of this room by five 20 o 1clock anyway, and I think we may be a little late* 21 (Whereupon, an adjournment was taken at 3:45 22 o'clock p*m* to 5:00 o'clock p* m*) 23 24 25 1 AFTER RECESS 2 (The meeting wae resumed, pursuant to recess, at 3 5:00 o'clock p. m.) 4 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: I suggest that those safety men In the 5 rear move up to the front and they will be able to hear much 6 better. 7 When we finished upstairs, we were Just starting Page 8 6, "Supervisors' Safety Committee." That is on Page 6, and 9 it is 5.12, 10 MR, DAVID KAYE: Before you start with that, I would 11 like to refer to 5.11, In connection with membership on the 12 Central Safety Committee. I am not trying to plug any par 13 ticular organization, but why couldn't there be a represent 14 ative of labor and a representative of management soeclfio- 15 ally representing labor end management committees? 16 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: That Is a very good point. The question 17 was, why couldn't there be a representative of management and 18 a representative of labor on the Central Safety Committee, 19 and especially designated to represent the labor-management 20 committee. The answer to that is that there may be. These 21 are Just minimum requirements, and only minimum requirements. 22 You can put anybody else on that committee that you rant to, 23 including the chief of police of the nearest town, if you 24 think it will do you any good. 25 MR. KAYE: Then while this is a minimum requirement, why couldn't you say that it is so recommended? 1 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Because some of the yards do not have 2 labor-management committees, We hope that all of them will 3 have. We can Include, If you like, where there are labor 4 management committees, if it is agreeable that we have such 5 representation. I see some head shaking. I would say this: 6 This being the minimum requirements, if you want to put them 7 on, go ahead, and It Is a good idea, in my opinion, and if 8 you have not got one or donTt want one, why, leave them off, 4 9 MR* FRAZIER: I would say that you leave it as it is, 10 and put them on if you want them on* 11 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: All right, that will be the decision. 12 Is that all right with you, Mr, Kaye? 13 MR. KAYE: All right. 14 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: He will take it for an answer, but he 15 is not satisfied. ' 16 Now, we will continue with 5.12, the "Supervisors1 17 Safety Committee," 18 a. Membership - Management representative, safety 19 director, medical department representative, superintendents, 20 foremen, quartermen, and leadermen. This is a rotating com 21 mittee; rotation should be arranged so all of the supervisory 22 staff serve in their respective periods, ie, superintend 23 ents change each four months, foremen each two months, quartern 24 ment and leadermen each month. In no case should an entire 25 group change at one time. Where a department or unit of a a department has an unusually poor record then the resoonsihie 8 8UPerTl80ry 8taff " euP erlntendent, foremen, quartermen or 3 leadermen should be retained on the committee until their 4 record Is at least equal to the shipyard average. ' "* " e8tln8e " ShE11 be " " > * " semi-monthly or more 6 frequently, as necessary, 7 c. Duties - The primary purpose of this committee 1 8 j the stimulation and maintenance of Interest and the eduea- 9 tlon of its members m accident prevention. The shipyard 10 accident record shall be reviewed, the predominant types of 1 1 accidents and the predominant causes of these accidents 12 shall be discussed. Suggestions and recommendations to i*. 13 prove the records are-solicited from each member. At least 14 one timely subject must be discussed at each meeting; l.e. 16 IIsuch as eye Injuries and their prevention, electric shocks, 16 hand tool accidents, et cetera. Methods of avoiding accidents 17 due to these operations should be presented by the committee 18 {[members, ' 19 d. The committee shall review reports of all fatal SO llserlour accidents and suggest preventive action. It shall 21 review reports of inspection committees and check on the 22 Iquality of the suggested corrective action for unsafe condl- 23 11lone or practices reported, 24 MR. KENDALL: Which is the senior committee? 25 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: The Central Committee is the senior 1 committee* 2 MR* KENDALL; And then you would have the senior com 3 mittee passing on the Central Committee? 4 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: No, but they shall act on recommenda 5 tions, I reversed that, or I turned it around. In other 6 words, they will do as they are told by the Central Safety 7 Committee, 8 HR, KENDALL! In other words, they shall carry out the 9 suggestions? 10 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Yes, they shall carry out the sugges 11 tions and recommendations, 12 MR, KENDALL: That is better. It is a little bit loose 13 there, . 14 MR. KAYE: Under Section C, you say,"The shipyard acci 15 dent record shall be reviewed, the predominant types of 16 accidents and the predominant causes of these accidents 17 shall be discussed." Why wouldn!t it be permissible to add 18 "andapproprlatesteps taken to eliminate them"? The suggestions 19 and recommendations sometimes are not actionable,.but if you 20 put in specifically that an appropriate action shall be taken 21 for their elimination, you have got something pretty specific 22 to work on, CHAIRMAN ROCHE: We are in hopes by this time the condi 23 tions that have caused the accidents have already been taken 24 25 care of, except as a general overall spread. That is, on 6UC 1 groups of accidents Individual cases should be taken care 2 of by that time. The question that in Paragraph (c) after 3 this sentence, the second sentence, "The shipyard accident 4 record shall be reviewed, the predominant types of accidents 5 and the predominant causes of these accidents shall be dis-* 6 cussed," there be added "and appropriate action shall be taken? 7 Do you agree that that should be in or leave it out, that is, 8 leave it the way it is? g MR KENDALL: Well, if the Central Committee is the 10 policy-forming body, they should take the action, rather n than the advisory. 12 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: It is Just a double check, because 13 they are giving a more, thorough review than the Central Conn 14 mlttee can give, because of the close contact. 15 e. The oommlttee shall act on the suggestions and 16 recommendations of the central committee. 17 Outside speakers such as safety engineers, insurance men, 18 state department, labormen or men from other shipyards, may 19 be used from time to time to stlumlate interest of committee 20 members in accident prevention work. Sound film strips, 21 motion pictures or other similar media on safety subjects 22 can and should be used if available and practicable. 23 f. Secretary - Same as for central safety committee. 24 Now, we come to the inspection committees, if we are 25 through there. 1 a. Number - One oommittee for each department and 2 each hull 3 h Inspection - Weekly or more often as necessary. 4 0 Membership - At least two employees and a supervisory 5 employee of each Job being Inspected. The safety director 6 or staff safety engineer may and should also accompany the 7 committee. B d. Duties - to Inspect their department or hull for g the purpose of discovering and having corrected unsafe acts 10 and unsafe conditions likely to cause accidents. On each il section of a Job they should be accompanied by a responsible 12 supervisory employee. They are observers only - the foreman, 13 quarterman or leaderman shall do all corrective work. Where 14 a condition is discovered on which there is disagreement the 15 superintendent shall make the necessary decision. Hazards 16 immediately dangerous to health, life or limb should be cor 17 rected by the accompanying supervisor at once. 18 By that I mean that the Inspection committee Is not to 19 go around and correct the men themselves. There is nothing 20 that irritates a foreman or a supervisor more than to have 21 some inspector come around and give orders to his men. 22 MR. GRAHAM: I do not agree with that clause where a 23 condition is discovered on which there is a disagreement where 24 the superintendent shall make the necessary decision. 25 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Will you propose a substitution? Jit 1 MR GRAHAM: I would say an executive committee which "2 represents management, production and Maritime Commission. 3 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: They shall make the decision? 4 MR. GRAHAM: That is right. 5 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: There is only one trouble with that, 6 and that Is that there is too much time wasted in getting a 7 decision from another committee, as this may be something 8 that needs immediate action. 9 MR. GRAHAM: Well, you covered immediate action in the 10 next clause in that paragraph, 11 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: You do not believe that they can or 12 that they 6hould go to the superintendent? 13 MR, GRAHAM: No, sir, I do not. 14 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: You would rather wait for a meeting of 15 the committee? 16 MR. GRAHAM: The superintendent might feel that he is in 17 charge, and he might decide to disregard the recommendation 18 entirely, and then you are lost. 19 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: I see what you mean. What do you think 20 of that point? The point is objected to to this sentence: 21 Where a condition is discovered on which there is a disagree 22 ment, the superintendent shall make the necessary decision, 23 and it is suggested that the decision be referred to the 24 Central Safety Committee, which will take some time. 25 MR. GRAHAM: I do not agree that it will take some time, 1 because the Central Committee must he subject to the lmmefil- 2 ate call and I mean by that, the same day 3 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Then in some of the yards they would be 4 meeting three times a day, 5 HR, DESJARDINES: The Chairman of the Central Committee 6 would have the last say* 7 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: What is your pleasure on that? Origin 8 ally) it read the yard manager would, which would have taken 9 in Mr, Desjardines1 point as the Chairman of the Safety 10 Gbamittee, but the yard manager again is a busy man and the 11 superintendent of a particular job can and frequently will mak; 12 the decision. 13 Now, if it is disagreed, it can still be referred to a 14 central committee and should be, 15 MR, GRAHAM: After he disagrees? 16 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: If he makes a decision, and there is 17 still a disagreement between the committee members, then, of 18 course, it should be referred to the central committee, 19 MR, GRAHAM: You know there is a conflict between the 20 recommendations of the safety department and the operations 21 department. If the operations department head wanted to make a decision, the safety department is out on a limb, 22 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: I think you have got something there. 23 Well, what is your pleasure on that? How many of you 24 believe that you should leave it as it is? (Quite a few.) 25 10k 1 How many of you think it should be changed? (A few,) 2 It looks like it will have to stay a6 it is. 3 How, again, let me point out that that is a minimum re-* 4 qulrement, and if you want to take that to your central com 5 mittee in your yard, that is perfectly all right to go ahead 6 ||and do it, I mean, these are what are known as rubber stand- 7 IIard8. The only rubber standards we have in the country. You 8 ||can stretch it, as long as you stretch it in the right direc tion* 10 e. The committee 6hall submit written reports to the 1 1 |safety director and indicate whether accident producing con- 12 ditions or practices have been corrected. These reports shall 13 be referred to the supervisory safety committee by the safety 14 director* If necessary because of dangerous conditions, he 18 ||may refer them at once to the general manager* 16 II MR, FRAZIER: You skipped over the underlined portion 17 ||in paragraph "d"* 18 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Ho, I read that in a very loud voice, 19 MR. FRAZIER: Then I would suggest that you change the 20 "should" to "shall"* 21 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Thank you, sir. I think everybody will 22 agree to that* 23 || a* Staging Inspectors, electrical inspectors, crane 24 [inspectors, boiler *inspectors, et cetera. 25 || b. Membership - Specially qualified individuals or teams 1 permanently assigned to work, 2 c* Duties 3 1. Staging Inspectors - Daily or continuous inspections 4 of all stages shall he made on each hull ~ or other locations 5 where stages are used. Report shall be made of all defects 6 to the rigger foremen for immediate correction. Copy of the 7 dally report shall he submitted to the safety director 8 Again, that is flexible. In some yard6 the staging in 9 spection is done by the stage rigger foremen, and they are 10 authorized and qualified to make immediate repairs. The only 11 thing we have been missing, however, are reports which will 12 indicate a trend that we did get a lot of staging effects 13 that we want to know about, so that with that we can take 14 appropriate action to 6ee that they do not occur again, and 15 cut down on any unnecessary stage repair work 16 2 Crane Inspectors - Weekly inspections shall be 17 made of all cranes and rigging. Reports shall be submitted 18 to proper department head for correction of unsafe conditions 19 or practices. Copies of reports on defects shall be made to 20 the safety director. 21 3 Other Inspectors - As above and at indicated fre 22 quency 23 MR. JOHNSOK, (Portland, Oregon): The one objection 1 24 make is to having so many of these committees and duties that 25 it seems to me that you are taking all of the authority and 2 1 il iac 1 itduties of your safety inspectors and putting them on con- 2 ||mittees. I wish we would consider that, and probably in 3 ||many of these cases here, a safety inspector, a qualified 4 || safety inspector, can act as this committee# He pan take 5 ||up the safety steward with him, if he wants to be a com- 6 mittee, but do not leave the safety inspector out of all 7 II these primary inspection duties. 8 II C H A I M A N ROCHE: That is a very good point, and you 9 IIwill notice there the membership it says "specially qualified 10 individuals or teams permanently assigned to work," and that 11 practically makes it the safety inspectors. 12 Now, there are very few safety men who are qualified 13 crane inspectors. In insurance companies you get special 14 ists, for example, the company that I was with. We had ele 15 vator men, and they did nothing but inspect elevators. We 16 had some boiler men and they did nothing but inspect boilers, 17 and we had unfired pressure vessels in some cases before we 18 had a large number of them, and those men inspected nothing 19 but that. 20 You have different specialists, and that is exactly what 21 you are doing in this case. I think there are very few of 22 you here who would like to go out and make a complete crane 23 inspection, isn*t that right? Some of us are qualified, I 24 know, but very few, and you do not very often run into one. 25 While you might be able to make a complete crane inspection, 4 L - 1 you certainly would not be an Inspector of boilers, first, 2 because you would not be permitted to, and secondly, because 3 you are not qualified to do that particular type of work. 4 MR* CONLON: I was going to say the same thing that 5 this gentleman back here said. I was going to ask who is to 6 appoint these men? Are they to be appointed by the safety 7 department, or by the various superintendents? 8 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: That Is a very good point. They should 9 be appointed on consultation with the proper department 10 heads by the safety engineer, and will very properly become 11 a part of his department as they do in some yards. 12 MR* CONLON: It-looks like they are going to overlap. 13 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Well, I realize that the crane in- 14 spectors like to maintain control of the cranes in their yards, 15 and the riggermen like to take care of their own men, and 16 that is all right. The main thing is to get the inspection 17 done, and the conditions corrected. 18 MR. GREENLEE: Under the membership of the central safety 19 committee, the management has a representative, and he is the 20 chairman. I judge from some of the discussions following 21 that that probably the general manager is to be that man, is 22 that right? 23 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Not necessarily. However, he may be. 24 MR. GREENLEE: Well, if he is not, just what is the mode nc of keenlntr him Informed, or of at least seeurinff hie O.W. on of the recommendations that are made! CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Copies 111 be given to bln as Is Indi cated under the duties of the safety engineer for keeping the general manager Informed of the progress of safety In the yard* MR* GREENLEE: Is it Just a question of keeping him in formed, or will he be siren the privilege of saying, *Xes, or,"No"? CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Well, not only be given, but he will probably take it, and he usually does, MR, GREENLEE: Well, It is not here, and I thought it ought to be here* CHAIRMAN ROCHE: So In other words, we have purposely avoided saying that the general manager In the yard must do this and must do that, because there Is no use bumping your head against a stone wall. We are leaving It up to him to appoint a management representative on these committees, and It may be hlmeelf, and we are leaving It up to the safety engineers to keep him. properly Informed of conditions In the yard with respect to safety, health, hygiene, et oetera, and that is where they all come under. MR. GREENLEE: Has anyone figured how much of a staff with all of Its committees, et cetera, that a eafety engineer is going to have? CHAIRMAN ROCHE: That has been covered* I do not know *V" 1*7 C i. W lether you were upstairs there a little while ago when we 1 jvered that matter, and in fact, we have even increased it 2 3 jnsiderahly. MR* GREENLEE: It looks to me that with a force of 4 wenty thousand men, we are going to have at our yard proh5 bly two or three hundred instead of the relatively few that 6 7 ou had up at the other meeting* CHAIRMAN ROCHE: We have cut the minimum to three thous8 md, and for an assistant safety director, and for each 9 thousand thereafter, there should he one additional* 10 MR* GREENLEE: That does not cover all of these committee-* 11 12 aen! CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Those are entirely separate* 13 MR* GREENLEE: The safety engineer appointed in consulta 14 15 tion with the heads of the department! 16 CHAIRMAN ROCHE! Those are separate* MR* GRAHAM: You have so many committees you have already jointed out;the safety director only has twenty-four hours to fork in# He will spend ah entire day to Just keep up with the committees* I think you have too many committees. CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Well, how do you get your crane in spected! MR. GRAHAM: By the master mechanic* CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Then he is your crane committee* How do you get your hollers inspected! K R * GRAHAli: W 4o not happen to have any boilers in spected by anybody, except the Maritime. CHAIRMAM ROCHE: Well, wbat about the riggingr MR. GRAHAM: That la oheoked by the oarpentere. CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Then the carpenter, do the inepeotion. MR. GRAHAM: Well, we inspect it and they correet it. CHAIRMAN ROCHE: It 1. perfectly all right if you want to take three or four of your men and make staging inspector, out of thenu MR. GRAHAM: Well, that Is part of their duties. CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Do you have them all on hulls? MR. GRAHAM: All of the hulls are covered. CHAIRMAN ROCHE: You do not have any stagings in the shop? MR. GRAHAM: The men in the shop also work on the hulls, and they have to be able to work anywhere. CHAIRMAN ROCHE: The point I make is this: That you do not need to call them safety engineers. You can have men out of the riggers, ana/or men out of the stage director, or men out of any of the shops, or housekeeping committees* MR. GRAHAM: Don't you think the Central Committee and the supervisors committee and the labor-management committee is sufficient? CHAIRMAN ROCHE: No, I do not, and neither does this committee that met in Chicago, You need the additional men 1 who are mating inspections of their own Jobs, For example, 2 one safety engineer on the hull cannot keep the hull in good 3 condition, not even on a Victory ship, and you ere making 4 bigger ships than that in some of these yards* I have seen 5 that so many times where you get a condition corrected in one 6 spot and you walk down the line and correct some place else, 7 and by the time you return there are three or four other 8 places for you to correct* So, he does need some help* All 9 of this is educational* 10 I think if you put a man on an inspection committee, you 11 will make a convert of him* If you do not believe that, try 12 it with some of your tough nuts sometimes* These are educa 13 tional committees* You get some good out of them, it is true, 14 but get conditions and practices discovered and corrected, 15 but the biggest thing you are doing is selling them on safety* 16 If they report a man for not wearing a hard hat, or not 17 wearing goggles, or not using the proper ventilating equipment 18 or putting up effective stagings, or what have you, they are 19 not going to do that themselves, at least not for a week or 20 so* and we discovered service on committees really means con 21 verting these fellows to your way of thinking, to helping you 22 with your safety program* 23 On any program that I have ever conducted, or operated, ) 24 it hae been my endeavor to get as many men at one time or 25 another, certainly not all at once, serving on a committee, 1 and the toughest cases that we ever had, the fellows who 2 would not wear goggles, the men who would not use guards 3 with whioh to protect themselves, were Christians after a 4 little service on a safety committee 5 Now, you can lump all of these, and call them house-* 6 keeping committees, if you want to These are minimum re 7 quirements, but you are oertainly going to need inspection 8 of cranes, boilers, and continuous inspection of staging i ' 9 There is not a yard I visited that did not have staging 10 inspectors, not one, and most of them were staging men, or 11 staging directors 12 Are there any more oomments on that particular section? 13 MR. WHITE: In looking over this, it seems like a 14 duplication here on the central committee and the supers 15 visory committee of your leaderman, quarterman, foreman, 16 et cetera On the central committee, or the policy committee;, 17 should be the management, the safety director, the medical 18 representative, and the superintendent that covers every one 19 of your divisions or crafts in your yard They are the people 20 who would naturally form the policies of the safety, and when 21 you came to your supervisory committees with your safety 22 directors, your foremen, and your superintendents, who are 23 the supervisors of that who under them come the leaderman 24 and quarterman, who they direct, and then comes the safety 25 general committee, which is a committee from every craft in (J - yerd who meets, and they are all polled, and all of their 1 gestions are brought to your central committee who acts J3 in them, or the supervisory committee who acts on them, ana 3 d in our case with thirty safety inspectors, it does not 4 5 sm like they have a thing to do* CHAIHHAN ROCHE: Who oee not have anything to do, the 6 7 fety director? KR. WHITE: No, because everything le done for him. 8 CHAIRMAN HOCHE: Well, a good safety engineer works that 9 iy. Let ne say this: Perhaps we should specify the else ' r the central connlttee. That is a snail connlttee, but with or present systen of labor nanagenent operation, we should are representation on any polioy-fomlng groups effecting he welfare and the activities of the nen in the yard, and tot is what I say a representation iron your various super- neory groups, or supervisors, and your labor, and one iron he employees. I would be satisfied, if you would, they ,,ould have two euperlntendents, one forenan, one nedical partaient representative, one quarterman, one leademan and ae employee, plus your management representative, your safe! irector, and your secretary, which is plent for a policy- \ orming gFoup HR. WHITE: The only trouble about quarterns and leade ,en, is if you take then out of the boiler shop, they are no Interested in anything else. I t h U * the four superlntender 80k . should be on there. ,, ^2 CHAIRMAN ROCHEj That ie all . * "a' xb a n right, to put the four superintendents on there, or whatever it le. MR. w h i t e . If you pick a quarterman out of the air who Happens to be in the boiler shop, ana who is not.interest in Hull construction, or anything else, he 1 . of little value to Iub in the general advisory end of it. C H A I R U M ROCHE: However, you do get valuable represen tion for that committee, whether he has the overall picture not. At least, his group, the l e a d e r s , is being represent on that committee. You do not expect that each and every individual on here is going to have the same intense interes in safety problems that you are going to have, but at least, rou are getting the viewpoints of the representative lead * n on this question of policy that will be raised for th .ommlttee. And they are the men in general who will have  - ; C* (-. <- 1 be paid as special inspectors, or are they employees from the 2 various departments? 3 CHAIRMAN ROCHE? It depends on the yard. In some yards, 4 the safety department has the department, and In other yards 4 5 they work for the particular department in which they are in 6 specting. That is left up to the yard. 7 MR. GRAHAM: Are their duties or responsibilities con B fined to that of inspecting? 9 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Not necessarily, as it may be a part 10 time Job. A weekly inspection of a crane, where there are 11 only two cranes in a yard, is not going to take a week. In 12 other words, they are inspectors so long as they are working 13 on inspection. After that, they go back to staging or rig 14 ging, or whatever they are doing. 15 MR. GRAHAM: In some yards they are on the payroll of 16 something else? 17 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Yes, that is true. They have taken IS some of the stage riggers who are qualified men to make 19 stage inspectors, and that is all they do all the time. 20 MR. WHELAN: In Paragraph 1 under tlutles", on Page 7, 21 Staging Inspectors, you state here that staging inspectors 22 shall report all defects io the rigger foreman for immediate 23 correction. However, in some yards the rigger foreman has 24 nothing whatever to do with staging. Why not make it "Stag 25 ing Foreman*? CHAIRMAN ROCHE: That la all right. I would suggest you make It the "Proper Foreman," because there Is a differ* enoe there* Or you can make it "Responsible Foreman." We will change that from "Rigging Foreman" to "Responsible Fore* man." There is a difference in authority. .Committees in addition to those specified in these standards, may be formed and operated if desired. Somebody a few moments ago said that that is a lot of committees to have but you should see the number of com mittees that they have In some yards. Every craft has a - committee on each shift. I have seen as many as thirty in some yards. It seems to me all they do is have meetings, but.. if they help your safety program that is fine. There is no ' question but a certain amount of it does help some oommit- tees. b. Representatives on all committees, when of a super- vlsory status, should be appointed by the shipyard general manager and held responsible by him for active and inter* ested participation in the work of the committee. Employee representation may be secured in the same manner, or by appointment of employee committees, union shop stewards or by election by union members or by any other feasible means. c. The services of production employees having related duties may be taken advantage of on Inspection committees. Stage erectors or repair men may serve as permanent and con-- 1 tlnuoue staging Inspectors, a man or men from the ventila 2 tion crew may be utilised for checking on ventilation prac 3 tices The reports of state or Insurance inspectors will 4 be considered adequate on boilers, air compressors and re 5 ceivers, or on other pressure vessels 6 In the Century Room you will find an exhibit of materi 7 als on the board from the National Safety Council. Those of 8 you who are publishing house organs can get from the National 9 Safety Council a considerable amount of material without cost 10 that can be used in your magazines. They include mets, eexw 11 taln posters which are available that are appropriate* That 12 one you see on the wall, while not suitable for your maga 13 zine, if any of you want copies of that, let me have your 14 names and addresses, and I will see that you get as many as 15 you want, without charge. 16 Also, those of you who are operating in a country where 17 there is a snow condition in the wintertime, we will give you 18 all of the posters you need on driving safely with snow on 19 the ground. Those of you operating car pools, where there 20 is snow on the ground, will be given a sufficient number of 21 booklets, four-page leaflets, for your employees, rules for 22 auto pools in the winter* That is not the exact title, but 23 it is illustrated on the board, plus a lot of other things. 24 If you want anything, let me know. There isn't any 25 charge for any of them, and if you select some on which there 24k 1 1 b a charge, I 111 let you know how much It is. The time for the safety training of an employee to nart 2 is at the Inception of his employment* After a physica- c-* 3 amlnation, which should be made to make certain that the em 4 ployee is physically capable of performing safely the w e n 5 he is requesting, the man shall have explained to him ths 6 7 safety policy of the company by a representative of the 8 safety department. This may be done Individually, in geriral 9 groups or in craft groups and the instruction may be sup 10 plemented by printed instructions in the form of rule bc^ia 11 or instruction cards, 12 MR* JACK WOLFF: May I say there that I have lister*: in 13 on several instruction programs that were given by a mensr 14 of the safety department, end in principle, they were dc_ig 15 the right thing, but it was not being done in the right Tiy. 16 It was not very effective. For example, a great many c a r n a l 17 statistics were thrown at the new people coming in, and 18 reference was made that the hold could be filled with de 19 capitated bodies, and cut off arms and hands, in the course 20 of a year, and I questioned whether it did very much gooL Consequently, I would suggest that every safety engineer so 21 farther than Just to assume, because a safety man is giT-^g 22 the ins tract ions to the new man, that it is being done ir a 23 way that will be effective with that new man. 24 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: That is a good point, and that brir?3 25 up a beautiful opportunity to tell you this? I would like to tell you of Jack Wolff's work which he spoke about this morning* It will be his Job to assist in developing such preliminary inspection instructions for your men* It will be his Job to oorrelate all safety training and to elaborate on any phase of it with you fellows. That does not mean that it is going to be compulsory of course# His program will be so prepared so that It will fit your particular yard, and it will be made at your request. I heard that talk on the decapitated arms and legs, and it is not a very good one, and certainly a welder is not very much interested in national statistics. What he needs is more specific instructions* 6.2 Employees shall have in their possession, and be instructed in the proper use of, all necessary personal protective equipment before being started on any Job. 6.3 General safety rule books, craft safety rule books or safety instruction cards may and should be supplied em ployees. Such books should be concise but complete enough to furnish written record of all important safety rules. No x*ule shall be Included which will not be strictly enforced. The assistance of U. S. Navy-Harltime Commission safety en gineers will be given in the preparation of such rule books if desired. There are several very good sets of books and instruction C .Cr O., 1 cards available* One of the best X have seen was developed 2 by Frank Johnson In Oregon, utilizing a lot of cartons, but 3 specific craft construction* Instead of a lot of hurrah in 4 the books that lead the fellows to throw the books away, he 5 has really given them something* 6 6.4 All employees shall be instructed in their specific 7 duties by their immediate supervisor and they shall be made 8 familiar with the hazards of the Job and instructed care 9 fully, in how to avoid them. It shall further be the duty 10 of the supervisor to constantly check all employees so un 11 safe working practices may be corrected before accidents 12 occur. 13 There is oertainly nothing new about that. That should 14 have been done for years. If you talk to the average super 15 visor, he will tell you that he is doing that, and again 16 that is where Jack Wolff's program comes in, and the JIT 17 training program comes in. That is the Job instruction train 18 ing. So, training methods in industry generally, as well as 19 in shipyards, have improved considerably over the past year. 20 6.5 Safety instruction ehall be correlated with all 21 apprentice and craft training schools. Safety instruction 22 in such schools or training courses shall include, an exof 23 planatlon and demonstratioiVthe need for the safety equip 24 ment or safe practices specified and the strict enforcement 25 of all safety requirements in the classes. The instructors  1 shall, by their own example, impress upon the learners the 2 importance of the safety requirements. 3 6.6 Safety bulletin boards shall be located at each hull 4 and shop, and at such other locations where they may be de 5 sirable, on which safety posters, letters or bulletins from 6 the shipyard management or safety department, and other safetj 7 material may be posted. 8 6.61 The bulletin boards shall be located where the g majority of the employees at a particular location will see i o them. il 6.62 The bulletin boards shall be well constructed, have 12 a locked glass cover an.d shall be lighted at night. 13 6.63 Safety posters and other material on bulletin 14 boards shall be changed at least semi-monthly or more often, 15 (Posters will be made available by the U,S. Navy-Maritime 16 Commission for the use of shipyards. However, posters may 17 be selected by the shipyard safety department from any source.! 18 We are going to try to get you specific posters. Is 19 there any objection to that "semi-monthly" change? Person 20 ally, I would leave mine up much less than that. I would 21 say that you should change them more often, but with our 22 present set-up, it is practically impossible to do anything 23 better. There is a lack of applicable posters, and there are 24 not enough good ones to go around, and we hope to supply 25 those OK 1 MR* DESJARDINES: We have our own artist, and we make 2 it a practice to have our Navy yards display posters of 3 some specific action 4 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: That is exactly what we are going to do 5 in this set-up 6 UR* KENDALL: Will you ask the group how many are using 7 Jumbo posters? I am referring to the billboard else* 8 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: There are about a dosen using them 9 We are going to try to produce some posters worth while, but 10 we have not had any good ones lately We have inspired the 11 men to boredom 12 67 Where shipyard house organs (magazines or news-* 13 papers) are established, (it is recommended that they be 14 established in all yards having 5,000 or more employees,) 15 the safety director shall arrange to have a reasonable pro 16 portion of the space devoted to safety (articles, items 17 and cartoon cuts relating to safety will be made available 18 by U S. Navy-Maritime Commission safety engineer's) 19 Now, please do not ask us for any until after the first 20 of the year. The publicity division is working on them now, 21 and in the. meantime we will have this stuff that I told you 22 about upstairs 23 66 Sound film strips and motion pictures on safety 24 subjects should be used where practicable Public address 25 systems, where installed, may be used for safety messages to k-UL 1 to shipyard employees especially during lunch hours or at 2 shift changes. 3 Some of those public address systems are being used to 4 irery good advantage* 5 7*1 A safety supply store shall be established in each 6 shipyard where safety 6hoes, safety hats, protective impact 7 goggles and tinted welding goggles shall be made available 8 to shipyard workers. Shoes may be sold at or near cost to 9 employees but safety hats and impact and tinted goggles shall 10 be issued to each employee but shall remain the property of 11 the company to be returned when the employee ends his em 12 ployment. Equipment such as work clothes, gloves, welders 13 helmets, may also be.stocked and sold to employees if de 14 sired* 15 7.11 Goggles may be stocked in the central tool room or 16 first aid department but should be fitted as described in 17 paragraph 7.2 following. 18 MR. KENDALLi You say there again "shall". You say, 19 "A safety supply store shall be established.* Now, it is my 20 impression there have been some rather flat statements made 21 by the Maritime Commission that you shall not have the stores within the oonfines of a Maritime Commission yard. 22 CHAIRMAN ROCHEi And I have been definitely instructed 23 24 to Include this by the Commission* 25 MR. KENDALL! You are all going to get it? r.o -' 1 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: We hope so. It Is a tough thing to 2 have your men buying shoes from Ginsburg, and Klein, and S Muleahey, and then come in with every possible kind of 4 equipment at a variety of prices* 5 UR KENDALL: Along the same lines, we have found that 6 unless you can sell safety shoes on a payroll deduction basis 7 you do not sell the shoes. At least, you do not sell very B many of them. What can be done along that line? 9 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: That is a law that would require an 10 Act of Congress to change. I sympathise with you, but I do 11 not know what you can do about that, 12 UR. FRAZIER: I beg to differ with you. In our ship 13 yards we sell all we can get, and the men come in and pay 14 cash for them, and there is no payroll deduction. The cash 15 is put on the barrel head, and they get the shoes, and I have 16 sold as many as a thousand dollars1 worth a day. 17 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: That is right, and that seems to be the 18 general experience# 19 MR. CLARK: I would like to propose a problem here. You 20 say safety caps and impact and tinted goggles shall be issued 21 to each employee, but shall remain the property of the com 22 pany to be returned when the employee ends his employment. Well, we have eight thousand men in the yard at the present 23 time, and we have yet to issue a safety hat or goggles that 24 25 remained the property of the company. We have sold them to <ci C` 1 the men the same as we aid the shoes. Now, if we start now 2 Issuing these hats, then we have got to consider the morale 3 problem that will confront us of major proportion* There 4 fore, I doubt very much If It is feasible for us to adopt 5 any ouch plan* I think it was you who suggested this morn 6 ing the main difficulty with this* It is true that you issue 7 the hats on a tool check, and when the man quits, he has lost 8 the tool check and lost the hat, and he pays you for the hat 9 and goes on. 10 So why not sell it to him in the first place? I say 11 that, especially in view of the fact that you might have a 12 very difficult problem on yrur hands of morale in New York. 13 Now, that to my mind is a question that somebody is 14 going to have to answer for me, because I cannot answer it 15 myself, 16 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: All right, let us have some other 17 discussion on that* 18 HR. CONLON: Let him but it, or not, as he pleases, 19 (Off the record.) 20 MR. DE5JARDINES: In regard to paragraph 7,1, I do not 21 like the reference in there to the word "tinted" goggles, 22 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: I have been looking for a good name 23 for that, and that is the simplest one'that I have been able 24 to find. Under "goggles" we cover Bureau of Standards that 25 are approved. kui 1 UR* DESJARDINES: You could call It "absorptive lenses"* 2 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: The suggestion has been made also that 3 we call it "filtered lenses"* 4 MR WHITE: You do not mean the combination of the two 5 Impacted and tinted? 6 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Definitely Impact and tinted They 7 practically all have them 8 MR* WHITE: I am reminded that at night the glasses do g not have to be tinted for a chipper, does it? 10 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: He should have them tinted, if he is li working in close proximity to any welding operation I think 12 we can 6olve this problem by taking out the word "shall", and 13 putting in the word "should"* in this paragraph, but that is 14 not solving the problem. In my opinion, we ehould 6ay "shall", 15 MR KENDALL: I would suggest that you leave the word 16 shall" in there. I can see your point, but we are interested 17 in getting this equipment to the men, and we are not getting 18 our welders to wear absorptive or filtered lenses under their 19 welding hood, because they do not want to buy them. 20 MR* PACKARD: What we are doing now is asking for a de 21 posit for the hats which is returnable any time they wish to terminate their employment, and if they have a secondhand 22 hat given to them, we Just oharge them one dollarror one 23 dollar and fifty .cents, whatever it is worth as a deposit, 24 but they get their money back 25 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: There le your answer. I would suggest that you take a deposit from them equal to the amount of the h&t, 7.8 The attendant of the safety store should be skilled in fitting safety shoes, and if goggles are also issued, he should be trained in proper fitting and servicing of goggles. 8.1 Impact reeleting goggles of a type suitable for the particular Job and also of a type meeting the requlre- ments of the 0.S. Bureau of Standards shall be worn by every employee exposed to the hazard of eye injuries. Practically every employes in the shipyard, with the exception of those working inside offices, are either directly exposed to eye injury from the work they do, or indirectly through working near operations likely to cause flying objects* 8.2 Except where temporary lack of goggles make It impossible, each employee shall have his own pair of goggles. If It Is necessary to reissue goggles to different employees, the goggles must be sterilized after each use. 8.3 Goggles supplied employees should be carefully fitted to their face to prevent irritation and to prevent the entrance of foreign objects around the e&es* paragraph 7.2) (See 8.4 All employees working in proximity to arc welding operations shall be required to wear anti "flash" goggles, of at least No. 4-5 shade, (or equivalent) of a type meeting the 1 requirements of the U.S. Bureau of Standards. (See Section 2 9.1 on Welding for Additional Eye Protection for Welders.) 3 MR. KAYE: There might be some question shade 4 or 5. 4 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Or its equivalent. You can use letters 5 or numbers. 6 MR. DESJARDINES: No. 3 is very satisfactory, and I be 7 lieve that No. 4or 5 is rather dense. 8 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: I use No. 3 myself, but this 4 or 5 9 is recommended by the AFA Standards. 10 MR. DESJARDINES: Should you not mention A, B or C? 11 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Or the equivalent. 12 MR. JOHNSON: I think that *4 or 5 shade" should be 13 taken out, because I believe they should go to the A, B, C, 14 or medium or dark. 15 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: If you trust me I will put in the 16 proper designation to fit that, and get in touch with Mr. 17 Johnson. 18 MR. WHITE: Did you ever wear a tinted glass in a tank 19 chipping at night? 20 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: No, I have been in many a tank, but not 21 at night. . 22 MR. WHITE: You could not do it. 23 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Why not? 24 MR. WHITE:. You cannot see. That mean6 that a man has 25 to have two pairs of goggles. (. o CHAIRMAN ROCHE: However, you have got to protect your 1 2 hlppers against eye flash, whether you remove the welding 3 peratlons from ln6lde the tank while they are chipping, or 4 hether you supply them with tinted goggles that protect them, 5 ou have a choice of the lesser of two evils; which is it 6 ioing to be? You admit there is a problem there? 7 MR* "WHITE: Yes, I do* That means that thousands of men 8 rill have two pairs of goggles in their pockets, I might not 9 >e a very good safety engineer, but I would never put a man 10 Ln a tank under eny artificial light with a tinted goggle, 11 jeca ise he cannot see* 12 MR, DESJARDINES: I have not had any experience on that, 13 MR, FRAZIER: fte.have had trouble at times on that, where 14 complain that they cannot see, and we issue them clear 15 lenses, and they work satisfactorily. In fact, the clear 16 lens is approximately as protective from eye flash as is your 17 tinted goggles. We have records to prove that on certain 18 things. There is a misconception, I believe, so far as your tinted goggles are concerned. We work on the theory that if you have a shade it will protect you, and with your experi ence in welding, I believe you will find the curved lens, even ln the clear, will also out down your rays, and you can become immune at times over a certain period of time to eye flash rays. That is the reason these men visit the first aid stations. 36k 13 * ' C q 1 They get the misconception that if you do not have a green 2 Boggle, you have got a flash h u m , and I believe the answer 3 that Is, whether It be tinted or otherwise, that you do 4 reoelve great benefit, iron you plain lenses, but it oust 5 be of a curved nature. A flet lens w i n not . ene will not protect you. 6 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: The flat v, 6 Sata We have accumulated does not 7 Indicate that. 8 HR. BOTOIAN* It night be that the nen who are given thee, 9 goggle, are nore apt to wear the ol.ar lenses, because they 10 ere not as heavy as the tinted ones. 11 CHAIRMAN ROCHE* Whet a . na* you recommend? 12 MR. BOWMAN: No fi t a *. .. 2. I do not have any reason for it. 13 I That type of glass is very light. 14 HR. W. w. WALL: You have only two ray. of light that 15 you have to contend with, which 1. infra red and ultra violet 16 You can cut out with clear glass all of your ultra violet, bu 17 not infra red, which runs 45 per cent of your bum.. So, you 18 would say about 55 per cent of your chance 1. cut down with 19 I a clear goggle. c h a i r m a n ROOKE: It is true there 1 . .one protection 21 I given by clear glass, but it 1. true that w. have had eye ' 22 I flash with clear glass goggle, being worn. I0u do not out 23 out sufficient for lone exnosnr. _ I or long exposure to give adequate protection, 24 *nd I believe w. should go on record as reconnendlng either 25 goggle, or removing the welding operation where when somebody <'d; 1 who 1b exposed who does not have adequate protection* If you 2 do not agree with the provision here, we will have to have 3 some solution, and some practical, usable solution that will 4 give protection to the employees, and certainly assist In 5 every way so as to not stop production* 6 MR. FRAZIER: Do you mean by that, not designating 7 either tinted or clear, but that either will be satisfactory? 8 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: No, sir. We are designating tinted. 8 MR. WHITE: You cannot wear tinted glasses at night. 10 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: We have only had two people who have 11 raised objections to it. 12 MR. JOHNSON: I believe that a lot of the eye flash 13 oan be overcome by using clear goggles at night, and side 14 shields, and enforcing the rule on welding shields. You do 15 not need to have It any bigger than two pieces of paper to 16 do It, 17 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Possibly we should put In another para 18 graph here on shields, on the use of welding shields. 19 MR. GRAHAM: Would anybody like to make a suggestion as 20 to the type of welding screen that should be used, whether 21 it should be three sided, with a hood, or not? CHAIRMAN ROCHE: We have some in there, 22 9 , 1 A H welders shall be made familiar with the hazards 23 of their work and they should be instructed in safe methods 24 25 of performing'the various types of Jobs to which they are 4 1 assigned, 2 9*2 Personal protective equipment used by welders shall 3 include: 4 9,21 Welders' protective hood provided with the proper 5 shade of tinted glass for protection against the harmful rays 6 of the arc and a clear cover glass to protect the shaded 7 glass. 8 a. The shades or their equivalent, recommended are: 9 Up to 30 Amperes - No, 6-7 Shade 10 50 to 75 Amperes - No, 6 Shade 11 75 to 200 Amperes - No, 10 Shade 12 200 to 400 Amperes - No, 12 Shade 13 Over 400 Amperes - No, 14 Shade 14 b. Shades may also be selected from the following 15 table: 16 Rod Diameter Welding Glass Shade No, 17 3/16 10 18 3/32 10 19 V8 10 20 5/32 10 21 3/16 12 22 7/32 12 23 1/4 12 24 5/16 14 25 3/8 14 1 c. The welders' hoods should he inspected at le ext 2 weekly to detect possible light leaks, cracked protective 3 glass or badly fouled or missing cover glasses* Any defects 4 discovered shall be corrected at once* 5 9*22 Protective leather welders' jacket, long sleeved 6 wool shirt with buttoned collar and leather welders' gloves 7 and safety hat* 8 a* It ha6 been found satisfactory in the hot summer 9 months to substitute flame proofed cotton shirts# If this 10 is done the flame proofing, which must be reapplied after 11 each washing, should be done under the direction of the ship 12 yard. This entails that laundering also be done by the com 13 pany; commercial laundries are rapidly undertaking this type 14 of work* 15 That is substituting for the wool shirt. Now, I know 16 that you use those down in the South, and some on the West 17 Coast in the hot country. Does everyone agree that that 18 should be left in there if they are flame proof? 19 9.23 Hardened and tinted protective goggles with side- 20 shields to be worn under the hood for protection against 21 harmful rays where the hood is raised and for protection 22 against flying scale and chips. The goggles should be of 23 a type meeting the requirements of the U. S* Bureau of 24 Standards and of at least No. 4-5 shade or equivalent# 25 MR. WHITE; All of this seems to fall upon what they 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 o `U,t d - "re y0U e0lns t0 UP by recommendations t o r punishing anyone for the violation of these rules! CHAIRMAN ROCHE: le are not. We are not going to folio. UP W U h th* P U n U h " ent of anyone for violation of these rules. The safety engineer's Job 1 . to lay do.n the company's policy to a man as soon as he starts. From then on. he continues to train that man in safety, and It is his Job to so train the man that he Is willing to obey the safety rules. If you -ant to punish them, that Is your Job. and not the Maritime Commieeionrs jot. MR. WHITE: You would not mah, a recommendation that some disciplinary action be taken if some man violated this ihing continually7 . CHAIRMAN ROCHE: No, I would not. with anything publish* >y the Maritime Commission. iuch. That would be asking for too MR. SINNOTT: Is it your Idea that these various yards re to pay for this laundering if the shirts are flame proofs! CHAIRMAN ROCHE: No. MR. SINNOTT: They can be laundered now without the Lame proofing being taken out of the shirt. CHAIRMAN ROCHE: >out that. That Is the first time I have heard MR. SINNOTT: The duPont people prepared some preparaon. and I understand they can be laundered in a special 9 /-f 1 preparation, 2 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: I will tell you, when you get a large 3 number of them, It means that you have got to get some laundry 4 to put this business In for you* 5 MR SINNOTT: I know around New York, they have a laundry 6 that does that* 7 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: That Is right, but none of the duPont 8 products now, so far as I know, laundered In the regular way 9 will be any good after laundering They have to be reflame 10 proofed, and that business of special preparation, It looks 11 to me like adding more cost to It 12 You say who should pay for It? Frankly, I do not know, 13 I think that depends upon the local conditions Most of the t 14 magnesium plants which employ many thousands more people than 15 we do, pay for the laundering and the re-flame proofing of 16 the shirts. 17 It Just strikes me that this paragraph means that the 18 company is to pay for the laundering, 19 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: It does not say that, but it Is left 20 up to them As a matter of fact, we come to that under 21 "women" a little later on, and that Is left up to the yard 22 to decide one way or the other, 23 9,24 Safety shoes with leather soles and heels, 24 MR. FRAZIER: Does this cover the welder's boots that 25 you are speaking of here? 1 1 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Yes. 2 MR* FRAZIER: You know they were stopped In production S on those about three months ago, and in order to get the 4 assistance of a body, I think we should write to the War 6 Production Board on that order 217 to get some action on 6 that, because we are unable to get womenTs shoes 7 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: We will go to town on that. 8 HR FBEIER: That is on the order M-217. g CHAIRMAN ROCHE: What do you think about corded heels? 10 MR* FBEIER: I think they are all right. il CHAIRMAN ROCHE: All right, I will get a definition of 12 that, and we will put It In there. 13 MR* FRAZIER: That is, corded soles and heels. 14 UR* WHITE: Do all welders have to wear safety shoes? 15 ' CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Yes. 16 MR* FRAZIER: Down South they have devised a boot which 17 Is being U6ed. 18 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: If It has a safety sole In there, It 19 is all right. 20 MR. FRAZIER: That takes the place of having to wear 21 anything above your ankles* 22 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: That Is all right. 23 9.3 Welding screens, constructed of flame proofed 24 fabric on wood or metal frames, metal on metal frames, or 25 plywood sheets Joined by rings, of a size sufficient to pro- 1 tect men working nearby from the harmful effeote of the 2 electric aro rays should be used on all electric welding 3 operations 4 Of course, you are going to have difficulty in some 5 spots, but where you can use them, use them, and that ply 6 wood sheet business I saw on the West Coast is possibly the 7 cheapest and the best screen of any It is two plywood 8 sheets about 14 x 16 joined together with a couple of rings, 9 an inch and one--half inch in diameter, and the holes are 10 drilled in the wood so that when you put them together here 11 they are self-supporting, with no Joints from which light 12 can leak through. They overlap, and it makes a good solid 13 shield that can be used, and it is very light, and I found 14 other shields that have weighed as high as two hundred pounds, 15 the men would not use them, because they would not carry 16 them around, but they do carry the plywood shields around, 17 and it is a swell job. 18 MR. GRAHAM: Do not they object to the extra piece of 19 equipment that they will have to move? 20 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: That does not weigh any more than 21 this (indicating). 22 MR. GRAHAM: The way we have over come that is by sug 23 gesting that they bracket the screen to hold the welding rod 24 box, and we put a hood on the top. We have four pieces of 25 screen, and I think you will find that that will work out better than carrying an additional piece of equipment. CHAIHMAM ROCHE: I would like to see them made ae cheap! " possible without using metal, and there Is a definite need for m.thousands of GRAHAM! these screens. For a screen that small, there is plenty of scrap sheet metal around m the yard, of, say, 16-gauge, that will provide the welder with sufficient material. If he Is not careless. CHAIRMAN ROCHE! West developed for? Whose yards were those screens in the MR. HOGAN: In the Oregon yard. CHAIRMAN ROCHE: They are very fine. By the way, I believe we should ohange should" to "shall', and after that, we w i n add the words "where prac ticable". there. Perhaps that Is why I put the word "should" in We have to get out of this room very shortly, and a lot of this stuff that you find from here on you will want to do, I know, and you will want to add to it, because it covers specific craft practices for the most part. So will you take these with you tonight and write In in pencil or Ink the corrections that you would like to have Included, and sign your name, your company connection, and your address on them, and give them to me tomorrow morning, and I will, in turn, put those corrections or additions in there where It can be I 45k 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Man foie 8 with Dec, e 9 10 11 12 done. Is that satisfactory to you? L. Then we will have that discussed with these four men who are coming in, and we will get a consensus on this and put this thing into effect. Now, I want to thank you for your close and careful attention, and for the interest that you have taken in this Job, (The meeting adjourned until 10:00 o'clock a, m,, Tuesday, December 8, 1942,) 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ie >y i lann 1 UNITED STATES MARITIME COMMISSION 2 and ' 3 UNITED STATES NAVY 4 _ 5 MEETING IN REGARD TOMINIMUMREQUIREMENTS : L 6 FOR INDUSTRIALHEALTH ANDSAFETY IN SHIP- : * a 7 YARDS. 5 a e 9 Held in the Century Room Hotel LaSalle, Chicago, 10 Illinois, on Tuesday, December 8, 1942, at ten o*clock a.m., n Mr. Daniel S. Ring, Chief, Shipyard Labor Relations, United 12 States Maritime Commission, presiding 13 14 CHAIRMAN RING: I have a number of announcements to 15 make. First of all, anybody who has not registered should 16 register immediately. There are cards available and they 17 can be obtained at the little desk outside the door. We 18 want a complete record of everybody who has been here. 19 Secondly, there is quite a report by the Bureau of 20 Labor Statistics on injuries in shipyards during the year 1941 that is in the course of preparation. That iB a review 21 in general of. conditions in 92 shipyards with respect to the 22 injuries sustained there and a breakdown as to the nature of 23 those injuries. The Bureau of Laoor Statistics is present 24 ing that in written form in the near future, in printed 25 '' 1 form, and there are 11 yards with approximately 3,500 in 2 juries that are completely broken down on a practical statis 3 tical basis* By "practical", I mean that there is an analysis 4 of the cause and the means of prevention of eaoh and every 5 one of those injuries* How, if you want them, you can get 6 those reprints of that article by communicating with Ur 7 Roche and he will have the Bureau of Labor Statistics send 8 them to you. I would think that everybody here would want 9 copies of that. Now, if there is anybody here that does not 10 want a copy, say "me." 11 Hearing no "me's", we will just give this list of at 12 tendance here to Mr. Roche, who will transmit it to the 13 Bureau of Labor Statistics and ask them to send about five 14 copiesto each one of you. That will amount to about 500 15 copies. 16 We have with us today, and I would like to have him 17 come up and just say "hello" to you, Dr. Peterson of the 18 American Medical Association. We want to have Dr. Peterson 19 come up and say "hello." 20 DR. PETERSON: (American Medical Association) Hello! 21 (Applause.) It is a real pleasure to be here and meet with you 22 today. The notice of the meeting came to my attention a 23 little late otherwise I could have participated in what 24 25 you talked about yesterday. ~r - 1 I see one or two references in your standards to the 2 work which the Council on Industrial Health has been doing. 3 I am sure that that body will be greatly interested in learn 4 ing the results that you achieve through this conference and 5 through the work which Dr. Drinker and Hr. Roche have been 6 carrying on. 7 I believe that you are thoroughly alive to the vital 8 problems rhich are confronting you and the profession at 9 large during these trying days and what steps we are taking 10 to arrive at some satisfactory solution. I think if we all 11 attempt to figure these things out together we will make 12 considerable progress. 13 Thank you very much. (Applause.) 14 CHAIRMAN RING: I want to say that I have a telegram 15 from John Green president of the Industrial Union of the 16 Marine and Ship Building Workers of America, affiliated with 17 the C. I. 0. which, as usual, I have left upstairs in my 18 overcoat. John said that he wanted to extend his regrets 19 for being unable to attend here. He was meeting in Washing 20 ton under circumstances that prevented him from leaving, 21 and he wanted to extend to this conference his sinoere wishes 22 for a successful prosecution of the objectives thereof. 23 I want to have that in the record, because I know if he 24 could have been here he would have been here. 25 Realizing that the safety men are prone to be a little 25f lees technical than the medical people, I suppose that we t 252 can jUBt call on the safety men for a report now, and then they will have their minimum standards bundled up and tied up and read?to go* I will call on Ur. Roche to report for the safety men. (Ur. Roche here assumed the Chair.) CHAIRMAN ROCHE: As you know, we did not finish our job yesterday. We had to postpone it. I asked each of you ;e of that super ; form. ;ing just to write youT suggestions and recommendations of the part not finished in the craft safety operation section of the standards. I hope you have all done that. I have a report from the committee of which Ur. Clark was chairman; time. I would like to present that at this your committee appointed to make a change in the 'language in paragraph 3 wishes to report as follows: That the last sentence of the above-named paragraph be changed to read as follows: form, i, instrucary form n of Labor, ashington, hannel. add a few disabling .rify that "The safety director shall report to and be responsible supervisory to the highest ranking managerial executive or his designated representative." . Three of the four committee members were present at the deliberations, Ur. Snider being absent. Will someone please move that report be accepted? ront of you taded. Will be ao- (The motion was made, seconded, put to a vote, and ) 1 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: May I have a copy of that before you 2 go today? 3 MR. KENDALL: YeB. 4 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: We still have the procedure of appoint 5 ing the committee for the group as a whole. We have about 6 three hours' work to complete that* If we get a committee 7 we can begin the safety part of that job. I would say there 8 is about an hour and a half's work perhaps left 9 So I am going to leave that authority with Dan Ring 10 for this action. He would like to finish this job before 11 we leave today but I would like to have immediately or as 12 soon as the committee is appointed all the suggestions and 13 criticisms you have written in longhand. I have several 14 already 15 MR. KENDALL: Mr. Chairman, in reviewing that form, we 16 also took a crack at the monthly injury summary. But we 17 suggest you include in the top of that form theaddresB, 18 with a notation as to the number of copies and where they 19 should go. We are not really certain as to how many copies 20 you want of that. Do you want four? 21 CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Three. 22 MR. KENDALL: Is that the total? CHAIRMAN ROCHE: That is the total for us. The yards, 23 24 of course, will want to keep one. 25 MR. KENDALL: That should appear on the form, in our 1 opinion 2 We also had in mind possibly the addition of an item 3 under item 10, "Frequency Rate", to include the accumulated 4 yeaT to date frequency- That would overcome the objections 5 that were raised yesterday on the fouT paid periods against 6 five paid periods, automatically carrying that out and taking 7 it along and also giving you a much better picture of your 8 frequency, because one swallow does not make a summer, and 9 one month might be terrible and the next might be fine, and 10 your year to date will give you a better picture 11 (Chairman Ring here resumed the chair.) 12 CHAIRMAN RING: I think that is fine. Suppose we have 13 a motion for the adoption of the recommendations of the com 14 mittee in that respect, that is, if somebody agrees with him, 15 of course. Move it yourself, Mr. Kendall 16 MR. KENDALL: I so move. 17 (The motion was seconded, put to a vote, and carried.) 18 CHAIRMAN RING: Now, with respect to the situation that 19 the committee on safety finds itself in, we do not want to 20 go away from here without things wrapped up and done in a proper manner. I think, after the time that has been spent 21 in coming here and the sacrifice that everyone has made to 22 be present at this meeting, it would be little short of a 23 crime if we left, say, an hour and a half*6 work between the 24 complete job as far as the safety standards are concerned 25 Be insert 255 1 and th e condition that it is now in 2 I think, therefore, that unless there is objection I 3 will appoint a committee to get to work on this as soon as 4 we have finished with the lecture that we will have this 6 morning, and I will them to report to this meeting at 2:00 6 oclock for final action 7 Do I hear any objection to that? There iB no objection. 8 The committee, I think, should be composed, in view of 9 the excellent results from the safety committee thus far, of 10 Mr. Kendall, Mr. Kaye, Mr. Frazier, and Mr. Frank Johnson 11 Now, we ought to have somebody from labor on this committee. 12 I think we will designate Mr. Fail and Mr. Graham, with Mr. 13 Roche serving ex officio* * 14 We have the privilege of having with us Dr. Hedwig 15 Kuhn, who knows a great deal about eyes and knows a great 16 deal about their effect in industry. He has kindly con 17 sented to show some slides here and, rather than move into 18 the medical part this moment, I think we will change the 19 line of procedure to permit Dr. Kuhn now to present and 20 illustrate a slide lecture that I know everyone will be in terested in, and then we will have the medical department 21 report immediately after that, at which time Mr. Kendall, 22 Mr. Roche, end the committee on safety can really start go 23 24 ing. I will now turn the meeting over to Dr. Kuhn* 25 255 1 DR. HEDWIG s. KUHN, (National Society for the Prevention 2 of Blindness, Hammond, Indiana); The thing that shipyard 3 safety men, medical men and production men are interested in, 4 as in all industries, is "Eyes for the Job," which means 5 foivSafety end foivProduction. That falls into a few very 6 simple categories. 7 The first problem, of course, is one you all know about, 8 and have already talked about here, and that is goggle pro 9 tection. Perhaps the road of eye protection is one that 10 has been laid by Harry Gilbert, who has done more to be the 11 pioneer in goggle protection than perhaps any one person in 12 the country. This is, protection to the eyes. If you will, 13 however, please, keep the two things separated, - protection 14 to eyes, and protection from defective eyes. 15 An all-out program is practically the only goggle solu 16 tion in most industries, so that it includes management, 17 frhen it goes into a plant, and visitors, when they go into a 18 Diant, - then the men will also be sold on it. 19 The various types of goggles you have seen. You who 20 ire in this room know that "cover-alls" are obsolete, and 21 ;hat to put a pair of goggles over a pair of glasses is out. 22 'eople who are unfortunate enough to have astigmatism know 23 >y experience that if their glasses are tilted even a little 24 >lt they get a blur. To put a goggle cover-all on top of 25 ;lasees and tilt the lens makes a hazard instead of creating 257 1 3afety. We have goggles for many purposes; splash, light and 2 gases, and then we have the newest development, the prescrip 3 4 tion goggle, which has eliminated the covert-all" goggle. 9 5 Eecause of the prescription goggle and because of the elimina 6 tion of the "cover^all", fitting and adjusting is essential. 7 Host of your toxic fumes trouble, of course, are really 8 simply ventilation problems, and not protection problems to 9 the eye itself. 10 Then in discussing accidents, because of eye defects, 11 one has the other side of the picture, from accidents to the 12 eyes. Your men have broken arms and broken shoulders and accidents because of eyes, and I think that is the thing that 13 14 most generally safety men completely overlook. 15 As one example, you have all seen this ad in the papers 16 of the Better Vision Institute, - "He says my eyes are O.K." 17 Oh, yeah.1 That is what I thought." This could have been 18 taken out of a case in our office, where the fellow came in 19 with a foreign body in his eye. After checking him through 20 we found he had no depth perception. He was amenable to 21 questioning, and I asked, "Have you had many accidents," and he said, "I have had a lot of foreign bodies." I said, 22 I don*t mean that. Did you ever get your fingers in a 23 machine?" He pulled his left hand out of his pocket and he 24 had three fingers off. That is what I mean when I say 25 5k 2 You have a or** a crane operator 3 accident, ana v V1*Ual tou 611,3 m report it * * 4 0ft`n f *b *ther the other feU o . ' ^ " * * " " entln 5 tte felloe ,bo W M C8U6ea the ` W e n t , or Was ^ported ae bein, u . 6 auee Of it hintself. In ot, aTlns beeo the in other words, that 7 " * `" " 8 * - * , "m "r M i ti< * < * > ,, 9 shoulder. The man who had "lth the brken 10 b` M i n a m both eyeB "'"'thing on him 11 ^ - - eaoiaen, ^ 12 - operator does. - lf 1 ^ ^ - -tlot * the 13 perception, that .as . d ' e n J o ^ Peretr *" i8ptb 14 aeoldent. That type of contrlb"tlng cause of that 15 safety man-s plan, ^ ; / eCra 18 * " -- . part of ^ , 16 17 otherwise defects and etatlstlos at all. Truck a beC"e ` ^ not be correlated ,ith 18 " en on aoaffolaing et , rat0r lSriTere and 19 This h n 6ra' f a U 18 * * saas oategOI7 16 brings up the first 20 " < a ,, J"r 21 w need to w*, J to hno. ,our tblngB baBloally> 22 ` Acultr. .or sharpness of vision , 23 WUh " -- 24 essential for i . ,, , glasses. That J " essential, it t, egal reasons, compensation reasons 25 essential for our records. ' " " U lg 259 1 2 You need to know about depth perception. Mind you 2 now, that does not mean you are going to do anything about it,* 3 often you cannot, but you do need to know, 4 3, Muscle imbalances for near and close. You can put 5 a crane operator on a crane who has absolutely perfect vision 6 in each eye, 20/15, and if he has a muscle imbalance he may 7 start the day beautifully, but after three or four hours he 8 fatigues, and he ends up working on a dangerous Job visually 9 unstable, (To me a definition of the accident prone man is 10 a clumsy person, or an awkward person, and therefore he is an 11 unsafe person, Isnft that what any safety man feels? Thereif 12 fore,/you are visually clumsy, then you are unsafe, and a 13 person with a muscle imbalance is visually clumsy,) 14 4, You need to know what sort of color appreciation a 15 man has. 16 And, finally, for certain precision Jobs you need some 17 near vision tests. 18 The Snellen chart at twenty feet for industrial records 19 is impossible. That does not, in the first place, give you 20 an accurate record, because 90 per cent of the time it cannot 21 be accurate. The light is wrong, the nurse is looking the 22 other way, when she covers one eye, or, as in our district, 23 South Chicago, among the people that come to work over in 24 Indiana, classes are held. The men get all the Snellen charts 25 and learn them backwards and forwards, so they can come in SOU le employment office and give you anything you want. Often 1 z ae chart hang6 over their heads as they wait, -- as I saw in 3 ce large ordnance plant. Here the chart is In the waiting 4 aom, and the nurses take the vision tests while the next 5 ellow sits there and memorizes It. Bo that kind of a visual 6 ecord does not mean anything. Then wy take It? When you 7 re through with you, you haven't got anything. Therefore, 8 11 your visual findings can hest be done blnocularlly In a 9 ompact battery of tests, ren by a layman, under medical .lrectlon, handled in a way that lay people also can use the 10 nformation, and not In any academic laboratory manner. It 11 awfully important to remain practical and not to be 12 academic and to lay down really minimum rules in time of war, 13 14 jut stick to the minimum. These are the elements of "visual performance," as we 15 16 sail them, or If you want to speak in an engineer's terms, I 17 tiave reduced it to a simple term of "visual skills," which 18 is actually what It is# 19 The slides that I am now going to show you are based on a year's lost time accidents In a riant. They will show you the relationship and correlation between vision, these visual elements I told you about, - acuity, muscle imbalance, depth perception and color-in the all-out plant average of a plant that has about twenty thousand people, and the eame attri butes among the men, with accidents. 261 1 To get these accident figures It was an almost impos 2 sible Job, because the accident records were so inadequate 3 that we could correlate them only with difficulty. Now that 4 safety men are beginning to keep real accident reports, 5 which include illumination, and a check mark of attentiveness 6 or of a man being on an off shift, or what the foremanTs 7 idea about the man is, - you can go to the statistical labor 8 atories, as we did at Purdue, and ask them to correlate 9 what relationship, if any, visual factors heve. 10 This need for real correlation was shown in California, 11 where they never could get any correlation between traffic 12 accidents and eye defects until they suddenly thought, "We 13 only know that a man has got poor vision, we have no record 14 of which eye, or what kind of accident." If a car hits you 15 from the right side and you are blind in that eye, that is 16 one thing. If a car hits you from the right side and your 17 left eye ic blind, that is another thing, and correlated 18 with full information you do get definite relationships. 19 In this slide the top row of columns represents a cross 20 section of the plant, and the first column is acuity, with 21 20 per cent defects; the second column is uncorrected acuity, 22 that is when.everybody had their glasses on in the plant, 23 showing 8 per cent. The third column is depth perception, 24 with 14 per cent defective, and the fourth one is color, 25 2 per cent, the fifth one being muscle balance, or 16 per cent. 1 || \ 26 a In the lower row of columns are the percentages of these 2 IIsame five categories among the men who have lost time accl 3 dents. In each Instance the per cent Is higher, especially 4 jin the men who remain uncorrectea In spite of glasses. From 5 this slide you get the idea that there is something besides 6 acuity and that all of these visual factors play a part in 7 accidents. 8 This leads u6 right into the second basic question, - 9 |what do we need to know about an employee*s eyes to insure 10 maximum production and minimum waste, which I presume you are 1 1 also interested in. 12 need to know the same facts, and this next slide 13 simply is a rough dramatization of what we mean by visual 14 |skill* This is a young lady looper and a crane operator. 1 5 The crane operator must often operate at a span of 150 feet, 16 but your looper works at eight inches eight hours a day 1 7 straight ahead, not down. Now, the two people cannot fill 18 |both of those Jobs with the same visual equipment. 19 The next slide shows you the percentages on sixteen 20 thousand employees that were checked in the Calumet district, 21 and the per cent of defects of these five things talked about, 22 i.e., acuity defects, 21 per cent, uncorrected acuity, 12 23 per cent, depth defects, 16 per cent, color defects, 5 per 24 jcent, and muscle imbalance, 22 per cent; and this is the 2 5 jaame in any industry. It would probably be the same in the 263 i shipyards as anywhere else* 2' The next slide shows you that people that apply for a 3 Job have almost the same average, almost the same percentage 4 of defects, and that a person does not get a visual defect 5 by going into industry. He may have an accident, but you 6 don't get a muscle imbalance* 7 From this type of information you can set up a Job 8 classification which should be kept very simple, - Class A, 9 the fellow that has to be absolutely perfect} Class B, the fellow that does not have to be perfect (intermediate); and 10 11 Class C, the people that have to be perfect especially for 12 close-in production work* *13 Why all this? Primarily to eliminate the visual bottle 14 necks to efficiency and the visual aptitudes, the thing that 15 Mr* Wolff is doing with training in your overall analyses* 16 You cannot train visual defects, such as acuity, but you can 17 train muscle balances, and you can sometimes train depth 18 perception* That makes for accuracy and makes for safety. 19 Every day the army and navy air corps recruiting headquarters 20 send down the boys that have muscle imbalances, and they are trained until they can pass 100 per cent and go on ahead 21 and fly planes. If we can do it, for aviation, we can do it 22 for industry as soon as industry sees the results accomplished, 23 The next two slides show you the relationship between 24 visual performance and production accuracy. One is the visual 25 2 64 1 ||performance records for inspectors. You have good vision, 2 ||fair vision and poor vision, and the correlations are direct 3 ||with speed of work. In other words, your speed, you notice, 4 || 18 highest with your poor vision* The foreman will pick 5 IIout an inspector and say, "That girl is my best inspector, 6 ||she is snappy and speedy." But actually she is the one that 7 IIlets things go through. Accuracy of work, at the bottom of 8 ||the column that you saw, is inverse* In other words, the 9 better your vision, the more accurate you are, and the poorer 10 I your vision, the less accurate you are. 1 1 || The other slide demonstrates the same thing for clerical 12 ||work, in which your record forms are shown by the columns 13 resting on the table,- indicating the relative amount of work 14 accomplished by people who passed the vision test and failed 15 in the three Jobs indicated. In other words, you will do 16 more work and do it more accurately if you can pass all these 17 visual tests. 18 Now, this last slide I Just threw on to show you how 19 nature or survival of the fittest eliminates automatically 20 the people that cannot do their Job. This is according to 21 the specialised occupations, - three groups, crane operators, 22 clerks and loopers. The crane operators, you see, are the 23 most perfect in all groups, and the clerks* acuity without 24 glasses is very bad. Do you know why? Most clerks are neez^ 25 sighted without their glasses. They cannot see, which does 2bi> t make them poor clerks, perhaps quite the contrary, hut It 1 Just a natter of record. Among the loopers, muscle 1m2 .lanoe Is very high. The girl working eight Inches from her 3 ree Is In a predicament unless she has special visual skills. 4 Now, what to do with the situation as is, - l.e., with 5 le employees at work. 1 Xou check the visual skills of 6 7 lese employees In the departments cf critical production, 8 r repeat, we must he realistic about programs in war times 9 nd not suggest an all-out program when industry could iron 10 ut trouble spots hut has no time for an all-out program, 11 ow, at least.) 2 Correct the defects among the critical production 12 13 mployees, wherever possible. 3. Shift the employees, if necessary. What to do with new applicants? 1* Allocate them and Lace them according to their visual skills, and I am sure % Wolff will hear me out in wishing that the people that 3 trains were tested and picked and allocated, so he could Bach them what they can do. 2. Correct them before hiring, tierever possible, with glasses, or with training, or with urgery. . Now, Just a word about the welders, end Just a comment n your statement in the outline here. Welding is mainly a iroblem, I believe, of protective equipment and its use. I ,hink the welder that wears his equipment, where that equip- 1 ment Is adequate, has no troubles. It Is the fellow that 2 breaks the rules accidentally or Ignorantly that has trouble. 3 We did a little Job In research on welders on Vltamlne A. 4 Welding does not make a bit of difference. Welders have no 5 depletion of visual purple. ' 6 No*# In your Section C, No* 1 under flash burns and 7 foreign bodies In the eye; Mr. Ring has said that when you 8 put In your records the word "shall" It means a certain ' 9 things, and you say, "An eye fla6h shall be treated only by 10 a doctor." I wonder If you have any Idea what that means? 11 An eye flash Is a simple thing to take care of. We have a 12 lot of flashes, but nothing compared to what the shipyards 13 have, and we train our nurses to take care of flashes. The 14 only thing we do Is to make 6ure to see the cornea at the 15 time or within 24 or 36 hours so we know there has been no 16 Injury to It or other trouble. But to anesthetize the eye, 17 to make Ice compresses, to follow it up with directions at 18 home, all of it under medical supervision and outlined by 19 the doctor, I grant you Is something a nurse can do, and if 20 it is stated that, "It shall be treated only by a doctor," It means that that one thing has to be violated. My sugges 21 tion would be that you Indicate it should be done under a 22 doctor1s direction, and leave it to his discretion how to 23 24 handle these things. Another thing came up. One of the doctors asked me what 25 5b/ 1 o do In cases where flash symptoms do not develop for seven 2 r eight hours afterward and they report to a general hospital 3 id that general hospital does not know anything about ln- 4 istrlal accidents or flashes and does not handle them well. 5 May I suggest that your Maritime Commission, either through 6 ts medical consultants or the U. S. Public Health Department, 7 bsuc a very 6lmple sheet of Instructions to general hospitals 8 n the Industrial areas with directions on how to take care 9 f a case that comes In with a history of a flash. There Is 10 o more uncomfortable man, and there Is no man who suffers, 11 ot damage, but suffers pain and discomfort as much as the 12 an with a flash who Is not treated properly. 13 I was very much amazed to hear this morning the comments 14 ade that welders are off three or four days In the yards, 15 ur welders go back on the Job. They are given and medication 16 o U6e during the day and told where first aid can give them 17 ce compresses once or twice during the day, If necessary, 18 hey are not off the Job, except very rarely, nor are foreign 19 odles off the Job, unless serious. 20 The comment was made that If you have a patch on a case 21 ou send him home. You cannot put him on a crane or a 6caf~ 22 old, but you can let him go back to work, and If your men 23 re crane operators, do not put them on the crane, but you 24 an give them something to do and not have them be absentees. 25 The final suggestion to you from a mere ophthalmologist 2GU 1 Id , first, that where possible you think about visual tests, 2 even on the Pacific Coast, where labor has not yet under 3 stood that tests for new applicants will come, I can tell you that in one plant here labor is the Instigating cower behind 5 an all-out visual testing program to increase production in a 6 plant doing vital war work, I am sure that a6 soon as labor 7 knows this is not a discriminatory test, but a test that will S add to one's merit rating, bring in more money, they will not o be against it; 2, Make a visual survey at the key spots of 10 your plant, to find out what you have, where you think your 11 trouble is; 3, Have a goggles program to protect eyes; 4. 12 Use of the visual data you have to protect other people 13 from defective eyes, and, finally, 5, have a rehabilitation 14 program. 15 You have been very kind. Thank you. 16 MR. RING: Dr. Kuhn knows by now when you put out, you 17 lay yourself open for any attack on anything you have said, 18 I am wondering if there are any questions? Dr Kuhn did not 19 know she was going to be subjected to this cross examination, 20 and I am going to take this on my own. Has anybody any ques 21 tions they would like to ask? 22 DR. CROFT: I would like to ask what would be the simple 23 and most accurate way of examining a test to put a man throu 24 before employment? If we are going to have pre-employment, I 25 would like to ask the simplest to maintain accuracy* 4 26R 1 DR. KUHN: For the last two years we have tieen working 2 on a new instrument. It is not fully on the market yet, 3 but It Is being released, in spite of priorities. But I 4 am sure shipyard peopled would be in the vanguard of the right and need for this Instrument. It is an instrument 6 designed and manufactured by Bauech & Lomb Optical Company. 7 However, we have had to set up a compromise program which 8 has been put to use these last two years, in which we have o drawn up for the teleblnocular, entirely new record forms 10 and entirely different interpretations of teste. 11 MR. RING: Of course, this is way over my head, but are 12 there any more technical questions? 13 I want to say to Dr. Kuhn that we appreciate very, very 14 deeply the time and the sacrifice that she has made to be 15 with us, and we are very, very thankful to have had the 16 opportunity of listening to her discourse, and I am sure it 17 will be very helpful to everyone here. 18 Thank you very much, indeed, Doctor. 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 DR. SPENCER: Could we possibly have copies of Dr. 2 Kuhn*s addresB? I thintyWe would all profit by it if we bad 3 it. 4 CHAIRMAN RING: Suppose we put iu an order now for 5 mimeographed copies to the extent I would say, of about 6 500 of Dr. Kuhn's remarks. The stenotypist can prepare that 7 for us and deliver it to the Maritime Commission, and I will 8 have it distributed to everyone who is here. 9 I think we are ready to take up the Teport from Dr. 10 Drinker on the medical and health standards, and now I think 11 that that committee on which Mr. Roche is ex officio member 12 and which is composed of Mr. Kaye, Mr. Kendall, Mr. Frazier, 13 Mr. Johnson, Mr. Fail,-and Mr. Graham, may roll up their 14 shirts and get together and be ready to report here at 2:00 15 o'clock with a comprehensive program that will enable us to 16 get the minimum standards of safety out of the way 17 I will now turn this meeting to Dr. Drinker. 18 DR. DRINKER: I would suggest in this report that we 19 ekim through a rehash very rapidly of the things which we 20 know are not controversial and let us get them out of the 21 way, and then come back to the items on which we ask the 22 committee to report, because that will unquestionably have 23 to have a little discussion. On Section A, medical facilities, it was suggested that 24 we had too few clerks down there under paragraph 4 and that 25 1 we should change that where it says "at least two clerks" to 2 "at least three clerks" , 3 Are there any objections to that? I assume that is 4 approved, then 5 There was a suggestion that there be a station wagon 6 provided within the yard to be used as an ambulance inside 7 the yard. I do not think we need to make that obligatory, 8 but we could put it in as a suggestion You remember, it 9 was said that a station wagon running around about the yard 10 worked out better than an ambulance, because of the feeling 11 the people had of an ambulance going around. It seems that 12 is a matter of preference and could be left to the medical 13 and safety groups, especially to the medical, in the yard 14 Is there any objection to that? It seems to be O.K. 15 It was suggested that in "physical facilities" there 16 be a statement definitely in that list that there be a pro 17 vision for a clerk and registration desk which will be put 18 in so there will be a distinct room for the registering and 19 purely clerical part of it as distinguished from the records 20 that you might want to get only the nurses or the doctor to 21 take 22 It was also suggested that in the "physical facilities" 23 we state definitely that provision may be necessary in cer 24 tain districts, ae in the eouth, for what amount to facil 25 itate handling four groups; that is,' male, female, white, /60^3 C/S Castleman's US Govt Contractor Regs w/=with CD-ROM Document #GCR U DATE ' 0 if undated __ Walsh Healey Act Safety & Health Standards __ government agency report __ magazine article __ meeting __ agenda minutes__attendees __ memorandum __ letter __ Navy regulations for shipbuilders other